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71-931 PS 2001

H.R. 427, H.R. 434, and H.R. 451

LEGISLATIVE HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FORESTS AND

FOREST HEALTH

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

April 25, 2001

Serial No. 107-19

Printed for the use of the Committee on Resources

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house

or

Committee address: http://resourcescommittee.house.gov

(II)

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, Chairman

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia, Ranking Democrat Member

Don Young, Alaska,

Vice Chairman

W.J. ′′Billy′′ Tauzin, Louisiana

Jim Saxton, New Jersey

Elton Gallegly, California

John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee

Joel Hefley, Colorado

Wayne T. Gilchrest, Maryland

Ken Calvert, California

Scott McInnis, Colorado

Richard W. Pombo, California

Barbara Cubin, Wyoming

George Radanovich, California

Walter B. Jones, Jr., North Carolina

Mac Thornberry, Texas

Chris Cannon, Utah

John E. Peterson, Pennsylvania

Bob Schaffer, Colorado

Jim Gibbons, Nevada

Mark E. Souder, Indiana

Greg Walden, Oregon

Michael K. Simpson, Idaho

Thomas G. Tancredo, Colorado

J.D. Hayworth, Arizona

C.L. ′′Butch′′ Otter, Idaho

Tom Osborne, Nebraska

Jeff Flake, Arizona

Dennis R. Rehberg, Montana

George Miller, California

Edward J. Markey, Massachusetts

Dale E. Kildee, Michigan

Peter A. DeFazio, Oregon

Eni F.H. Faleomavaega, American Samoa

Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii

Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas

Frank Pallone, Jr., New Jersey

Calvin M. Dooley, California

Robert A. Underwood, Guam

Adam Smith, Washington

Donna M. Christensen, Virgin Islands

Ron Kind, Wisconsin

Jay Inslee, Washington

Grace F. Napolitano, California

Tom Udall, New Mexico

Mark Udall, Colorado

Rush D. Holt, New Jersey

James P. McGovern, Massachusetts

Anibal Acevedo-Vila, Puerto Rico

Hilda L. Solis, California

Brad Carson, Oklahoma

Betty McCollum, Minnesota

Allen D. Freemyer, Chief of Staff

Lisa Pittman, Chief Counsel

Michael S. Twinchek, Chief Clerk

James H. Zoia, Democrat Staff Director

Jeff Petrich, Democrat Chief Counsel

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FORESTS AND FOREST HEALTH

SCOTT McINNIS, Colorado, Chairman

JAY INSLEE, Washington, Ranking Democrat Member

John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee

John E. Peterson, Pennsylvania,

Vice Chairman

Mark E. Souder, Indiana

Michael K. Simpson, Idaho

Thomas G. Tancredo, Colorado

J.D. Hayworth, Arizona

C.L. ′′Butch′′ Otter, Idaho

Dale E. Kildee, Michigan

Tom Udall, New Mexico

Mark Udall, Colorado

Rush D. Holt, New Jersey

Anibal Acevedo-Vila, Puerto Rico

Betty McCollum, Minnesota

(III)

CONTENTS

Page

Hearing held on April 25, 2001 .............................................................................. 1

Statement of Members:

Blumenauer, Hon. Earl, a Representative in Congress from the State

of Oregon ....................................................................................................... 47

Prepared statement on H.R. 427 ............................................................. 47

Letter from Bull Run Heritage Foundation submitted for the record .. 49

Condit, Hon. Gary A., a Representative in Congress from the State of

California, Prepared statement on H.R. 434 ............................................. 3

Doolittle, Hon. John, a Representative in Congress from the State of

California ....................................................................................................... 25

Prepared statement on H.R. 434 ............................................................. 26

Hansen, Hon. James V., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Utah ........................................................................................................... 3

Prepared statement on H.R. 451 ............................................................. 4

McInnis, Hon. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of

Colorado ......................................................................................................... 1

Prepared statement on H.R. 427 ............................................................. 46

Prepared statement on H.R. 434 ............................................................. 24

Prepared statement on H.R. 451 ............................................................. 2

Statement of Witnesses:

Brougher, Steve, Issues Coordinator, Central Sierra Chapter of

Wilderness Watch ......................................................................................... 27

Prepared statement on H.R. 434 ............................................................. 29

Collins, Sally, Associate Deputy Chief, National Forest System, Forest

Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Oral statement on H.R. 451 ... 17

Prepared statement on H.R. 427, H.R. 434 and H.R. 451 ................... 18

Oral statement on H.R. 427 ..................................................................... 68

Oral statement on H.R. 434 ..................................................................... 41

Howarth, William Boyd, Chairman, Juab County, Utah, Board of

Commissioners .............................................................................................. 5

Prepared statement on H.R. 451 ............................................................. 7

Rosenberger, Michael, Administrator, Bureau of Water Works, City of

Portland, Oregon .......................................................................................... 57

Prepared statement on H.R. 427 ............................................................. 59

Additional materials supplied:

Boggs, Denise, Executive Director, Utah Environmental Congress, Letter

submitted for the record on H.R. 451 ......................................................... 75

Gearhart, Frank, President, Citizens Interested in Bull Run, Inc., Letter

submitted for the record on H.R. 427 ......................................................... 76

Maluski, Ivan, American Lands Alliance, et al., Letter submitted for

the record on H.R. 427 ................................................................................. 77

(1)

HEARING ON H.R. 427, TO PROVIDE FURTHER

PROTECTIONS FOR THE WATERSHED OF

THE LITTLE SANDY RIVER AS PART OF THE

BULL RUN WATERSHED MANAGEMENT

UNIT, OREGON, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES; H.R. 434, TO DIRECT THE SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE TO ENTER INTO

A COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT TO PROVIDE

FOR RETENTION, MAINTENANCE AND

OPERATION, AT PRIVATE EXPENSE, OF THE

18 CONCRETE DAMS AND WEIRS LOCATED

WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EMIGRANT WILDERNESS IN THE STANISLAUS

NATIONAL FOREST, CALIFORNIA, AND FOR

OTHER PURPOSES; AND H.R. 451, TO MAKE

CERTAIN ADJUSTMENTS TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE MOUNT NEBO WILDERNESS

AREA, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES.

Wednesday, April 25, 2001

U.S. House of Representatives

Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health

Committee on Resources

Washington, DC

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:05 p.m., in Room

1334, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Scott McInnis,

[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.

Mr. MCINNIS. The Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health

will come to order. The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on H.R. 451, H.R. 434 and H.R. 427. I appreciate the witnesses taking time to offer remarks on these bills today, and I look

forward to hearing each of your comments.

Under Committee Rule 4(g), the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member can make opening statements. If other members have

statements, they will be included in the hearing record.

2

Now, is there any objection to Representative Doolittle having

permission to sit on the dais and participate in the hearing? Seeing

none, so ordered.

Today the Resources’ Subcommittee on Forests and Forest

Health is conducting a hearing for those three bills as I just mentioned. I appreciate our witnesses taking time to offer remarks on

these bills, and I look forward to your comments, but I would ask

that all the witnesses honor the five-minute limit on testimony.

[The prepared statement of Mr. McInnis follows:]

Statement of The Honorable Scott McInnis, Chairman,

Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health, on H.R. 451

I would like to thank Chairman Hansen for taking the time to testify before the

Forests and Forest Health Subcommittee and to commend him for his leadership on

the Mount Nebo Wilderness Boundary Adjustment Act. This legislation is a balanced attempt to correct an oversight within the Utah Wilderness Act of 1984 that

presently threatens the drinking water supplies of several communities in Mr. Hansen’s District. The Chairman has gone to great pains to accommodate all of the parties with a stake in the legislation, and for that the bill deserves the support of the

Members of this Subcommittee.

The Mount Nebo Wilderness Area is located in the Uinta National Forest in Juab

County, Utah, not far from my District in western Colorado. Mount Nebo was designated as wilderness with the enactment of the Utah Wilderness Act in 1984, a

bill Chairman Hansen sponsored. Unfortunately, the legislation and accompanying

maps wrongly designated as wilderness various parcels of public land that included

water system developments.

Because, as we all know, the Wilderness Act does not allow any motorized vehicles to enter into wilderness areas, these water systems have begun to deteriorate

without the aid of maintenance. While some of the necessary maintenance has been

done by hand, much of the work requires the use of either motorized or mechanized

equipment. In one area, Willow Creek, a concrete ditch once became so dilapidated

by normal wear and tear that it was unable to sustain the flow of water. Due to

the county’s inability to sufficiently maintain the ditch, the water caused substantial

erosion before it was finally repaired. At present, without the possibility to adequately maintain these water developments with machinery, more large-scale damage along these lines will occur to the other facilities.

To remedy this situation, Chairman Hansen has introduced legislation to remove

these eight tracts, each of which is home to a water facility, from the wilderness

area. Again, it is critical to remember that these areas were erroneously included

within the borders of the wilderness area in the first place. Moreover, as Commissioner Howarth has pointed out in his written testimony, these parcels will still remain in the public domain, and will therefore still be subject to the Forest Service’s

management protections.

Much to their credit, Chairman Hansen and officials from Juab County entered

into negotiations with local Forest Service officials in an effort to identify additional

would-be wilderness areas to compensate for the 428.774 acres that would be excluded in the boundary adjustment. The parties agreed to include 439.209 acres of

land classified as ‘‘roadless’’ to offset the discharge of the eight parcels with water

facilities. When viewed together, then, this boundary adjustment would actually result in a 10-acre net gain in the overall size of the wilderness area.

As a general matter, I know that there are some who are opposed, per se, to removing land from wilderness protection. While I might be sympathetic to this argument in some instances, this is not one of those times. The Chairman’s bill is an

eminently fair attempt to remedy an unfortunate oversight within the 1984 legislation, in a manner that honors the Mount Nebo Wilderness Area’s broader preservation values. At the end of the day, the wilderness area actually increases in size,

even as Juab County’s water facilities are excluded. For these reasons, this bill

clearly deserves the support of this Subcommittee.

[The prepared statement of The Honorable Gary Condit follows:]

3

Statement of Gary A. Condit, a Representative in Congress from the State

of California, on H.R. 434

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to speak in favor of H.R. 434, a bill

that protects a piece of California’s back country heritage that has become an important wildlife habitat.

H.R. 434 directs the Secretary of Agriculture to enter cooperative agreements to

retain, maintain, and operate at private expense 18 concrete dams and weirs located

within the Emigrant Wilderness in the Stanislaus National Forest. I fully support

this legislation, and the preservation of these historic structures.

The first of the 18 dams and weirs was constructed in 1920- 55 years before Congress designated it as a Wilderness Area. Sportsman and high-country adventurer

Fred Leighton traveled throughout the area, constructing dams to maintain water

flow on the Cherry River to nurture minnows living in the streams and keep lakes

deep enough to prevent fish from freezing in the winters. His efforts were supported

through funding and labor provided by the United States Forest Service, California

Department of Fish and Game, California Conservation Corps, Tuolumne County,

Tuolumne County Sportsmen’s Association, City and County of San Francisco and

local citizens.

For more than 80 years, lakes, meadows and wetland habitats providing healthy

ecosystems for fish, otters, geese, birds, deer, rabbits, reptiles, waterfowl, and insects have thrived thanks to the presence of these check dams. Loss of these reservoirs through lack of maintenance would jeopardize all of these wildlife populations. Additionally, the absence of these check dams will increase recreational

pressure on remaining lakes in the Emigrant Wilderness Area. Sport fishing visitors

will be forced to congregate around the few existing lakes, which will also reduce

opportunities for solitude, a key part of true wilderness experience.

Although subtle features of the Emigrant Wilderness themselves, these 18 check

dams have become important aspects of the natural environment and reflect the

unique history of the land and its visitors. Having personally visited Emigrant Wilderness Area, specifically Yellowhammer dam, I can attest the wilderness qualities

of the region are in no way compromised by the presence of these small dams. In

fact, the maintenance of these dams insures the continued existence of many wildlife species, which are a significant draw to visitors in the area. I wholeheartedly

endorse the passage and enactment of this legislation. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for providing me the opportunity to share my comments.

Mr. MCINNIS. With that, the Subcommittee will take up

H.R. 451, the Mount Nebo Wilderness Area Boundary Adjustment

Act.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for coming. I will have you note I

started the Committee pretty close to on time, since you insist on

promptness. You are recognized, Mr. Chairman. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JAMES V. HANSEN, A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF UTAH

Mr. HANSEN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to

be here in the Subcommittee, and I appreciate you taking this

piece of legislation.

I want to welcome W. Boyd Howarth, our County Commissioner

and those who are with him from Juab County. These folks are

great public servants, and I appreciate the great work they do in

this beautiful county.

Let me give you a little background on H.R. 451. You know, we

have been playing around with this for a long time. Almost 18

years ago, myself and Jake Garn did a bill on Utah wilderness and

the Forest Service. The area of Mount Nebo is immediately east of

Nephi, Utah, and in that area we thought we had it worked out.

I guess we weren’t smart enough to see that we didn’t, but there

are some water systems up there and a few other things we are

very concerned about. We felt that they were cherry-stemmed so

4

that the people in Juab County could go up in that area and take

care of this water. Now, they use this water. The water they use

for culinary purposes and other purposes, and all of a sudden they

were told by the Forest Service they couldn’t do it. We have been

hammering the Forest Service now for 15 years, asking, well, give

us a definitive action on this.

So now we expect our guys out there to put a backpack on, walk

up in there, fix the tile, clean it up, clean the thing up and walk

out. Well, it is almost impossible, and it is a tough situation for our

folks to have there.

So, we thought, well, maybe the best thing for us to do—and I

have been to that area. I have looked at it. I have been up on top,

on the bottom. I think I know it backwards and forwards. And we

have been dealing now, this is the third or fourth administration

we have been trying to square away this relatively minor problem,

which has created quite an encumbrance on the folks down there

in Juab County.

So we are introducing this bill, which in effect says that we will

cherry-stem those areas so that they can take in the proper equipment to take care of these areas as they need to maintain, which

we thought we did the first time around.

I went up with Jake Garn in his airplane the other day and we

flew around, and this issue came up, and we said—Jake said, ‘‘Well, I thought we had that resolved.’’ I said, ‘‘I thought we did

too, but apparently, we don’t.’’ So I think the only way we can handle this is to put this bill in

and see if we can take care of something that Congress originally

intended. And so this remedy is a legislative remedy to adjust the

current boundaries to exclude the water development, and also— the commissioner can correct me, but I think there are some private inholdings in there we also want to take care of. However,

what it does, is we are adding some acreage, which would in effect

more than take up the difference which is necessary to take care

of this area.

Now, Nephi and the town of Mona will now have access to their

water development, inholdings will be removed, and the Forest

Service will have a wilderness area with less human intrusions and

fewer access issues.

Now, I personally feel it is a good piece of legislation, probably

a housekeeping piece of legislation, but I appreciate the commissioner and his folks from the county being with us, to spend the

time with us. It means an awful lot to those cities in Juab County.

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to respond to

any questions anyone may have regarding this legislation.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hansen follows:]

Statement of The Honorable James V. Hansen, Chairman,

Committee on Resources, on H.R. 451

I want to welcome Commissioner Howarth to this hearing on H.R. 451. I appreciate you being with us today. As the good Commissioner knows, I have taken a particular interest in this ongoing management issue of the Mt. Nebo Wilderness Area

because of my history with the legislation.

More than 15 years ago, as a junior member of this Committee, I drafted the Utah

Wilderness Act of 1984 which created 800,000 acres of wilderness within the Forest

Service lands in Utah, including the Mt. Nebo Wilderness area. This is a very beautiful area, rich in biological diversity, offering numerous primitive recreational

5

opportunities, tremendous solitude and breathtaking views of the Great Basin, all

within one hour of nearly 80 percent of the population of Utah. There is no question

that the Mount Nebo area deserves wilderness protection.

As the members of this Committee know, creating congressionally designated wilderness is not an easy process. In Utah, we had to work through a dozen different

management issues in each area we wanted to protect. We had to determine how

to protect valid existing rights such as grazing, mineral development and historic

access to certain areas. We had to navigate through the private inholdings issues

and work with the agency and local governments to identify and draw boundaries

that made the best management sense. The legislation was literally the result of

hundreds of hours of negotiations. However, during the legislative process we don’t

always get everything buttoned up exactly the way we would like.

In this case, 17 years ago, maps were erroneously drawn which included some

pre-existing developments to municipal and agricultural water systems that have

supplied water to Juab County since the late 1800s inside the wilderness boundaries. These systems are old and in need of constant maintenance and care. But due

to the restrictions on motorized vehicle access in wilderness areas, it is difficult, if

not impossible, to adequately maintain these existing facilities.

In addition to these maintenance problems, a small piece of private land was also

included that should not be inside the boundaries of the wilderness area.

I know the Forest Service is interested in working toward a solution. The Committee needs to be aware that the Forest Service has had more than 15 years to

develop a solution. Commissioner Howarth will tell us that they have been trying

to reach an administrative solution since the wilderness area was declared. Given

that we were forced to introduce legislation to bring about a solution is indicative

that it is not likely that the problem can be solved administratively.

The best remedy is to legislatively adjust the current boundaries to exclude the

water developments and the private inholdings. This bill accomplishes that. We

have also adjusted the southern boundary to include an area of roadless Forest

Service land to compensate for the acres removed, resulting in a slight increase in

the wilderness acreage. Nephi City and the Town of Mona will have access to their

water developments, inholdings will be removed and the Forest Service will have

a wilderness area with less human intrusions and fewer access issues.

I know that initially, there were concerns regarding the impact of moving boundaries back up these canyons and how it might put pressure on additional development through increased public access. Administrative roads are used by all agencies. Nothing precludes the Forest Service from keeping these roads closed to the

general public except motorized access to the County for the maintenance of their

existing water facilities.

Ms. Collins, I look forward to hearing the testimony today and I particularly look

forward to your taking my questions.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Kildee, do you have any questions?

Mr. KILDEE. I have none right now.

Mr. MCINNIS. With that, we are going to go ahead and ask the

county commissioner. Commissioner? Thank you, commissioner for

attending. A long ways from home. We appreciate your time, and

again ask that you honor the five-minute rule. You may proceed

with your testimony, sir.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BOYD HOWARTH, CHAIRMAN,

JUAB COUNTY, UTAH, BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

Mr. HOWARTH. Honorable Chairman and committee members, I

am William Boyd Howarth, Chairman of the Juab, Utah Commission. We appreciate the opportunity to represent the residents of

Juab County today, and express our strong support of H.R. 451.

In my written statement I have included a more-detailed explanation of the issues and problems that we have been facing, concerning some small areas within the Mount Nebo Wilderness Area.

Because of Committee rules, even the written submittal is very abbreviated. We have much additional information to substantiate

the real need for H.R. 451. In the few minutes that I have here

6

today, I will highlight some of the important points. I would ask

you to remember that as you consider H.R. 451, there are five

points that I will briefly discuss.

Item Number 1. Water systems and patent mining claims should

never have been included in the wilderness of 1984. All of the information presented during the discussion of proposed wilderness

indicated the wilderness boundary would be at the 8,000-foot level

on the west side of Mount Nebo. This was important to protect existing water systems and patent mining claims located below that

elevation. After the Utah Wilderness Act of 1984 was passed, it

was discovered that the actual wilderness boundary was, in most

cases, brought down to the forest boundary, in some areas below

the 5,300-foot level of elevation. With this change, the patent

claims and the water systems were held hostage within the wilderness. Their presence presents significant problems for the owners

of the system and also creates management headaches for the

Forest Service.

While the 1964 Wilderness Act provides for recognition of prior

valid and existing rights, and some believe that H.R. 451 is not

necessary, over 16 years of experience have clearly demonstrated

that change is needed. While current law may allow these items to

be resolved, this certainly has not been the case.

On several occasions congressional intervention and even court

action has been required to protect these rights. Bob Steele, a

member of our county commission, was forced to sue the United

States to get access to his patent mining claims and the right to

mine these claims. This suit was settled with a judgment against

the United States.

Number 2 of the stipulation of entry for judgment reads: ‘‘Judgment shall be entered in the favor of the plaintiffs and against the

United States in the amount of $120,000.’’ A copy of this stipulation is attached to my written testimony.

Significant resource damage has occurred when water delivery

systems have worn out or eroded, and if rapid approvals could have

been received, this damage could have been very well minimized.

However, the extended delays encountered and bureaucratic delays

and untruths, resulted in significant erosion and other problems.

Point Number 2. This will not adversely impact the Mount Nebo

Wilderness. I believe these areas are in fact in conflict with wilderness management goals and values. There is an absolute need to

access these systems, including needed cleanup that cannot practically be accomplished without the use of mechanized equipment.

These water rights have priority dates in the 1800’s, and constitute

a valid longstanding right to the owners of those rights.

Point Number 3. There is a net gain of wilderness. Early discussion indicates that if the total area requested out of wilderness

were less than 500 acres and if there were no net loss of wilderness

acres, this boundary adjustment would be possible. I feel it is important to recognize there is actually a small gain of wilderness

acreage with H.R. 451. Also the area that will be added is much

better suited to wilderness designation, and is much more manageable than the areas being removed.

Point Number 4. The resulting wilderness area is more manageable. It has been difficult to manage the existing boundaries. These

7

well-established roads have been gated. In one area the gates have

been removed several times to try and find a location where the access could be managed. We have worked hard to make the new proposed boundaries manageable. It is not enough to easily identify a

boundary on a map. The boundaries need to be easily identified on

the ground. Proposed boundaries will follow ridge lines and

etcetera to help with manageability.

Item 5. The lands removed from wilderness are still within the

forest and subject to Forest Service management. It is important

to remember that while this land was removed from the wilderness, it is still in the Uinta National Forest. Use of it will still require special use permits and would be subject to Forest Service

regulation and oversight. There is not a possibility that these lands

can be pillaged.

This change allows the owners of these rights to properly use

and maintain their rights, and also allows the Forest Service to be

much more responsive to needs. H.R. 451 is a win-win. As one

Forest official said, ‘‘Let’s solve the issues, so when we get together

we can work productively on the many issues that face us, and not

continue to battle over these systems.’’

These issues have been a source of frustrations for over 16 years.

Let us solve the issues that should have never been created. Protect the Nebo Wilderness. Make it more manageable, and allow for

proper maintenance and operation and management in these areas.

This bill is a reasonable, environmentally-conscious solution to this

problem. Please give this bill your favorable consideration. And

thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Howarth follows:]

Statement of William Boyd Howarth, Chairman, Board of Commissioners,

Juab County, Utah, on H.R. 451

Honorable Chairman and committee members: I am William Boyd Howarth

Chairman of the Juab County, Utah, Commission. We appreciate the opportunity

to represent the residents of Juab County here today and express our strong support

of H.R. 451.

H.R. 451 would remove approximately 429 acres from the Mt. Nebo Wilderness

area, add 439 acres to the wilderness area, and make one technical correction. It

is important to note that this a net gain of wilderness acres. This bill is a conservative approach to remove very limited areas from the wilderness in order to allow

continued use and maintenance of water systems that date back to the 1800’s and

to allow access to the existing patented claims in Gardner Canyon. We have checked

with local cattlemen, farmers, ranchers, and other public officials. Every one that

we have discussed this with agrees that this is a good area to exchange for the

water systems and patented mining claims that we have identified.

Let me outline a few of the reasons why this bill is necessary. During the early

1980’s, as Forest Service Wilderness was being discussed, the proposals that were

presented showed that on Mt. Nebo the western boundary of the wilderness area

would be at the 8,000 foot elevation. This was important to protect existing water

systems and patented mining claims located below that elevation. Water is the lifeblood of any area. After the Utah Wilderness Act of 1984 was passed, it was discovered that the actual wilderness boundary was, in most cases, brought down to the

forest boundary. In some areas it is at the 5,300-foot elevation. With this change,

the patented claims and water systems were held hostage within the wilderness.

These systems should have never been included in wilderness. Their presence presents significant problems for the owners of the system and it also creates management headaches for the Forest Service. Local Forest Officials have been very positive about trying to resolve these issues.

While the 1964 Wilderness Act provides for recognition of ‘‘prior, valid existing

rights’’, and some believe that H.R. 451 is not necessary, over 26 years of experience

clearly demonstrates that change is needed. While current law may allow these

8

items to be resolved this certainly has not been the case. On several occasions, congressional intervention and even court action has been required to protect these

rights.

This bill would take seven specific areas out of the wilderness and also clarify the

map so there is no misunderstanding that one piece of private property is not within

the wilderness area. The areas are identified as follows:

1. Monument Springs: These springs are a part of the Nephi City Culinary Water

System. A pipeline carries water from the springs down to a lower collection

system. Approximately 1/8 mile of the pipeline and the springs are within the

wilderness. Nephi plans to do some repair on this system and pipe it down to

water the golf course, freeing up softer water from other springs for the regular

culinary system. The original wilderness bill does give municipalities some special access rights, however, this small adjustment would prevent many problems. These springs have a priority date of 1937. This parcel contains 26.045

acres 2. Gardner Canyon: This canyon provides culinary and irrigation water and has

patented mining claims. These springs in Gardner Canyon have a priority date

of 1878 and 1855. This parcel contains 202.084 acres. Much of this acreage consists of the patented mining claims that are going to be mined.

3. Birch Creek: Water from Birch Creek is used for irrigation on farms located

beneath the wilderness. These springs have a priority date of 1850. This parcel

contains 4.161 acres. Access is needed to maintain and utilize this water source

including the ability to use mechanized equipment when necessary..

4. Ingram Canyon: Water from this canyon provides 100% of the culinary water

for four (4) homes in the valley. These springs have a priority date of 1923.

This parcel contains 17.296 acres.

5. Willow Creek: The original water rights in Willow Creek were secured under

Utah Law evidenced by Diligence Claim 79. Water was first diverted for use

into the Willow Creek Canyon System in the 1870’s. Mona Irrigation Company

was formed in 1896. Willow Creek South contains 68.156 acres, and Willow

Creek North contains 50.38 acres.

6. Mendenhall: These springs have a priority date of 1899 and provide irrigation

water. This parcel contains 16.350 acres.

7. Wash Canyon: These springs have a priority date of 1880. The water from

Wash Canyon is used for irrigation on the farmlands. The Forest Service has

requested that debris and fragments from a previous line that was installed

prior to current ownership be removed. This also requires the use of heavy

equipment for which access rights have been denied. This parcel contains

44.302 acres.

8. Dale: From the information that we have it appears that the Mt. Nebo Wilderness Area Boundary cuts this private property approximately in half. H.R. 451

would clarify that this private property is not within the wilderness boundary.

Time does not permit me to describe all of the problems that have arisen concerning these valid rights so I will only outline a very few of them.

The owner of the patented claims in Gardner Canyon was driving the existing

road to his claims when the Forest Service ticketed him. He also faced significant

unwarranted delays and was told that he would not be allowed to mine his claims.

Even though research showed use of this road as early as the 1880’s, the Forest

Service denied Juab County’s claim that this was an RS2477 right-of-way. As a result of this the owner filed suit against the Forest Service to maintain his right of

access and his right to mine his claims. The settlement required the Forest Service

to pay $120,000 and required that the Forest Service grant him a special user permit that would allow him necessary access and the right to mine those claims. I

have attached to my written statement documents verifying the settlement and lack

of recognition by the Forest Service of these rights.

Let me briefly tell you the story of Jack Howard. Jack is an 80-year-old man who

lives just below Gardner Canyon. He personally has lived at that location, in two

different homes, for 77 of the last 80 years. For the three years that he was absent

he was serving in the military. Throughout his entire life (and before that) the culinary water for the family has come from springs in Gardner Canyon as part of the

Gardner Canyon Irrigation Company. Maintaining the water system requires cleaning screens located in the canyon. Since wilderness designation, Jack has had to

walk the steep up-hill road to clean the screens. This is the same road that can be

used to mine the claims, however, at the age of 80 and severely bent over, Jack is

still required to walk the 3/4-mile into the canyon.

During the Utah floods of 1983–84, a large mudslide coved and destroyed the

upper portion of the pipeline. The water that flowed through that pipeline now flows

through an open ditch. During certain times of the year the water flows through

9

the decaying leaves from the trees and picks up much of this debris that clogs the

screens. Jack is required to walk up the road to clean these screens. On washday,

Jack and his wife often have to change the filter in their home every two hours.

The irrigation company has been unable to repair the pipeline because of wilderness

designation.

Willow Creek is another prime example that a change is needed. Let me paraphrase from a letter by the President of the Mona Irrigation Company. Mona Irrigation Company owns the rights in Willow Creek. While Mona Irrigation Company’s

water rights and legal rights to divert and convey water which originated in the Mt.

Nebo wilderness are recognized by state law and the 1964 Wilderness Act provides

for recognition of ‘‘prior, valid existing rights’’— as a practical matter, bureaucratic

delays, lack of response, and down-right untruth proves that this has not been the

case.

When the company proposed renovation of structures that protruded into ‘‘wilderness’’, they were met by obstacle after obstacle by the Forest Service bureaucracy.

Initially, they were told that work was being done on the required Environmental

Assessment. They were told this many times over an 18-month period. They persevered until the fact surfaced that not only was the EA never started, many other

crucial facts, such as procedural steps, required comment periods, design requirements, and other pertinent facts had been so misrepresented to them that after two

years of requesting action, no progress had been made past the initial phase. After

the Forest Service was forced to take action due to intervention by Senator Bennett,

the Forest Service they continued not only the delay tactics but also sought to interpret the rules in the most stringent way possible. Our engineer finally devised an

elaborate design, meant to attempt to meet the requirements. This design used expensive materials, expensive construction methods, and such stringent requirements

that when we put the project to bid, the low-cost bid was four times the cost the

project should have been required, were in not for the wilderness designation of the

upper 900 feet.

The final result was that the project took four years to get approval, water rights

had to be defended against wilderness ‘‘advocates’’ who sought to infringed upon

them, the costs were dramatically increased, and the resource was wasted during

this inexcusable delay with significant accompanying erosion damage caused by an

agency supposedly concerned with protecting the resources and serving the public.

Similar stories could be told of each of the areas that H.R. 451 would remove

from wilderness. It is important to remember that while H.R. 451 would remove

these areas from wilderness, the areas will still be within the Forest, and the Forest

Service has adequate regulations and authority to insure that work that is done in

these systems is done in an appropriate and environmentally conscious manner. I

strongly encourage your favorable consideration of H.R. 451.

[Attachments to Mr. Howarth’s statement follow:]

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11

12

13

14

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Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Chairman, do you have a question?

Mr. HANSEN. I would just like to, if I could, Mr. Chairman, ask

the commissioner, isn’t it true that the Juab County Commission,

when this bill was originally passed, was of the opinion that this

water system was going to be accessible for the people in Juab

County and the people of Nephi and Mona?

Mr. HOWARTH. As I understand, that is correct, that it would be,

such as the morning it came back to committee here, it was

changed down to the 5,300-foot level, when we thought it would be

at the 8,000-foot level, and everything would be safe within those

distances.

Mr. HANSEN. I know that you have Mr. Greenhalgh with you

also, your economic development director, and having met with him

many times, I am sure I have had that opinion expressed to me,

I can’t understand the attitude of the Forest Service trying to cut

off just water supply to these little communities, but I would like

to just tell the Committee this is basically kind of a housekeeping

measure just to clear up on issue, and maybe the Forest Service

will clear up part of it when they take the stand. But I appreciate

the commissioner coming, and Mr. Greenhalgh and the other folks

with him, for the good work that they have done there, and I would

hope the Committee would vote favorably on this piece of legislation.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Inslee?

Mr. INSLEE. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Howarth, for

making the journey here. I have a couple questions. I am sorry, I

am not really familiar with this issue and I missed part of your testimony. My apologies.

Could you tell us about in the change of the boundary of the wilderness area, would you characterize this, is this the minimal

changes that would be required for these water systems? Could

your proposal be subject to a criticism that it takes in more in the

exclusion than would be really necessary? Tell us about that, if you

will.

Mr. HOWARTH. As we have worked it, is the minimal. It was a

cherry stem in order that they could come to the forest boundary

and in, and bring mechanized equipment. They can bring in the

steel pipe now because heavy-duty pipe, extruded PVC, it will crack

and move and bend and break in rocky area and when the earth

moves. And then if it is a community, they can go into the head

houses. They can develop it, because water has to come from source

to delivery to point of use, and that is what we are trying to do.

We have no natural lakes. We have no reservoirs. In fact, this year

we are at 40 percent snow pack. Since 1851, when the pioneers

came, they have used these sources as water.

Mr. INSLEE. Given the nature of water in our west, it is a little

surprising to me that this issue was not resolved when the bill was

first passed. Mr. Hansen indicated there was apparently some misunderstanding about the elevation or the level the wilderness was

drawn at. It surprises me that something like that would not be

resolved at the time of the bill, given the nature of the importance

of water. Could you tell us how that occurred?

16

Mr. HOWARTH. Maybe I don’t understand what you are asking.

Mr. INSLEE. Well, as I understand, Mr. Hansen suggested that

there was a misunderstanding about how the parameters, the

boundaries of the wilderness were drawn, and there was some reference to elevation. I heard somebody say that there was an elevation difference than they originally contemplated was going to be

in the bill. I am just asking you to explain to us how this could

have happened, to have such a big difference?

Mr. HOWARTH. I would love to know how that did happen, because it happened back here. As we know, in that area of the residents, that bill should have been placed at 8,000 feet. But when it

was passed, the 1984 Wilderness Act for Mount Nebo came down

in fact to the 5,300-foot level. As you leave Nephi, you can go past

Exit 228 of I-15, and it is within a quarter of a mile of the wilderness boundary.

Mr. HANSEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. INSLEE. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. The gentleman from Washington is, I am sure

aware, when we pass a wilderness piece of legislation, they go draw

the maps, and then they let us review those. Well, we didn’t ever

get to review them. Maybe that is our fault, maybe so. But the intent of the bill, which is very clear, is that these water systems

would be cherry-stemmed in, so that these folks—right on the side

of the mountain there, east of the town. And that didn’t occur. If

we had had—maybe we dropped the ball, maybe somebody else. I

don’t know. If we had done it right though, we would have again

reviewed it and made sure that that is the intent where that line

was drawn. It is very hard on these wilderness in the west. I am

sure you are probably more aware than I am how difficult it is to

draw those lines on a wilderness area. I think of all the wilderness

areas I have been involved in, we ought to go back and look and

see, well, where do you put this line? And many times it just happens, and we don’t get a handle on it.

So if it is us or it is the Forest Service, I am not sure, but it was

not the intent of the bill, and being the sponsor of the bill with

Senator Garn, we both acknowledge the mistake. And the folks in

Juab County and the city of Nephi and Mona are the recipients of

some rather poor work on maybe our parts or somebody else. But

that is what we are trying to rectify.

Mr. INSLEE. Appreciate that, Mr. Chair. Just another question.

Mr. Howarth, I am always a little bit—at least I am a little bit

nervous about nibbling on these wilderness areas, that create some

red flags because there are a lot of economic activities around the

west, that could tend to want to nibble on the boundaries of these

areas, and maybe it makes sense to think about a no-net-loss provision when we make these boundary adjustments so that there is—

we try to have a policy of no-net-loss on wilderness, and I am just

wondering if you or anyone has discussed locally the prospects that

if we do change these boundaries, that we add some wilderness of

an appropriate acreage another place. And you are already doing

that, and my staff is now telling me that is going on. Is that accurate, Mr. Chair?

Mr. HANSEN. The gentleman from Washington, actually not

much of an increase, but we do add some to this. Actually 10 acres

17

we are adding, so what we are taking away, we are more than

making up for 10 additional acres into this wilderness. That is not

much, but it is better than a loss.

Mr. INSLEE. Well, we appreciate that. And thank you, Mr.

Howarth.

Mr. HOWARTH. Thank you.

Mr. MCINNIS. I might add, Mr. Inslee, in the wilderness that I

put in last year, we discovered a mistake, and for the Forest Service or for us to now insist that there be no net loss because there

is a couple of acres or so that have been mistaken in there, the

Government shouldn’t have added in wilderness in the first place,

and I don’t think they should be stuck with a no-net-loss. So I don’t

think we should have a no-net-loss that locks in every wilderness

that we have got up here. But just an aside here.

Let us see. Mr. Peterson.

Mr. PETERSON. I have no questions.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Holt?

Mr. HOLT. It seems to me that this is so dependent on the details

of the map, and that I am happy to take the word of the Chairman

and our witness on this. So I have no questions at this time.

Mr. MCINNIS. Ms. McCollum?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Nothing, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you, Commissioner. I appreciate very much

you taking the time and testifying for us today.

Mr. HOWARTH. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

Mr. MCINNIS. At this point in time, we will excuse the commissioner and ask the Forest Service to come up, please, Ms. Collins.

Welcome back to the Committee.

Ms. COLLINS. Thank you.

Mr. MCINNIS. You may proceed, and we ask you recognize the

five-minute rule.

STATEMENT OF SALLY COLLINS, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF,

NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM, USDA FOREST SERVICE, ON

H.R. 451

Ms. COLLINS. My comments on this bill are very short. I am Sally

Collins, the Associate Deputy Chief of the National Forest System

here in Washington, D.C., have been here a year, and this is the

second time I have been before this Committee.

My comments today represent the views of the Administration on

this particular bill, H.R. 451—and I won’t go into any more of a

description of it—but let me start with this statement. We really

do recognize that there are legitimate issues associated with these

permitted uses in these eight areas. We really are very interested

in working with you to resolve these as well as to look at the existing authorities that we have governing all of these facilities.

And I also want to recognize something that you all have already

said, that when Mount Nebo Wilderness was created in 1984, we

may have overlooked some of these areas as maps were being developed, which may have created this 16 to 18 years of frustration

that you all have been talking about this morning or this afternoon.

If enacted, Section 5 of this bill would amend the Utah Wilderness Act to further define water issues, and I do want to make a

18

point about that. I think that there is some terminology that is

technical that we may need to work on, that may impact wilderness areas beyond this in ways that we may not want, that just

may be unintended consequences that we are certainly willing to

talk about further.

But I guess my main point is that we are really interested in

working with Chairman Hansen and the permittees and all the interested parties to resolve all the accessibility and management

issues associated with Mount Nebo Wilderness. And that is my

comment for today. Any questions?

[The prepared statement of Ms. Collins follows:]

Statement of Sally Collins, Associate Deputy Chief, Forest Service, United

States Department of Agriculture, on H.R. 451, H.R. 434, and H.R. 427

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity

to appear before you today. I am Sally Collins, Associate Deputy Chief for National

Forest System, USDA Forest Service. My comments today represent the views of the

Administration on three bills: H.R. 451, a bill ‘‘To make certain adjustments to the

boundaries of the Mount Nebo Wilderness Area, and for other purposes’’; H.R. 434,

a bill ‘‘To direct the Secretary of Agriculture to enter into a cooperative agreement

to provide for retention, maintenance, and operation, at private expense, of the 18

concrete dams and weirs located within the boundaries of the Emigrant Wilderness

in the Stanislaus National Forest, California, and for other purposes’’; and

H.R. 427, a bill ‘‘To provide further protections for the watershed of the Little

Sandy River as part of the Bull Run Watershed Management Unit, Oregon, and for

other purposes.’’

For reasons I will detail in my testimony, the Forest Service has some concerns

with the management direction provided by these bills. However, the Department

and the Forest Service would like to work with the Committee to resolve the issues

these bills address and work toward outcomes that will serve our mutual interests.

Today’s hearing is an important step in beginning this process.

H.R. 451, ‘‘Mount Nebo Wilderness Boundary Adjustment Act’’

H.R. 451 makes boundary adjustments to the Mount Nebo Wilderness area. Eight

small areas within the Mount Nebo Wilderness, currently covered by special use

permit authorizations for water and mineral developments, would be removed from

the wilderness. We recognize there are legitimate issues associated with these permitted uses. We want to work with you to resolve these, as well as, continue looking

at existing statutes governing these facilities. We also recognize that when the

Mount Nebo Wilderness was established in 1984 we may have overlooked some of

these areas as maps were being developed.

If enacted, Section 5 of the bill would amend the Utah Wilderness Act of 1984

to further define water uses. We believe the term ‘‘systems’’ could be broadly interpreted and would be applied to all wilderness areas established by the Utah Wilderness Act. For these reasons we feel there may be unintended consequences that we

would like to discuss with you further.

We are committed to working with Chairman Hansen, the Committee, and the

permittees to resolve accessibility and management issues in the Mount Nebo Wilderness.

H.R. 434, ‘‘Emigrant Wilderness in the Stanislaus National Forest, California’’

H.R. 434 would require the Secretary of Agriculture to enter into a cooperative

agreement to provide for retention, maintenance, and operation, at private expense,

of the 18 dams and weirs located within the boundaries of the Emigrant Wilderness

in California. These small rock and mortar dams have deteriorated over time as

maintenance levels have decreased. Some structures are in poor condition and are

leaking significantly or have washed out and no longer function. The remaining

structures are in fair to good condition. Because of the age and overall character

of some dams, several are now eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places.

During the 1970’s and 1980’s, maintenance of the dams was shared between the

Forest Service and the California Department of Fish and Game (CDFG). The last

permit issued to CDFG for maintenance and operation was in 1975 and included

the 11 structures that remain in fair to good condition. CDFG declined to participate

19

in maintenance of the other seven structures. CDFG ceased maintaining or operating the eleven structures in 1988 when the permit expired.

The Stanislaus National Forest developed an environmental impact statement

and record of decision in 1998 that outlined management direction for the Emigrant

Wilderness. The decision document allowed for the continued maintenance of eight

dams. Under that plan the ten other structures would not be maintained but would

be allowed to deteriorate naturally over time. Except for Y Meadow Lake (which has

no fish), no lakes would have been eliminated due to the eventual deterioration of

these ten structures. The record of decision received 14 appeals and was vacated in

1999 by the Regional Forester.

On November 8, 2000 the Regional Forester and CDFG agreed to a joint strategy

for future management of the dams. This strategy outlined the need to maintain the

eight dams identified in the Emigrant Wilderness management direction.

Recently, Mr. Doolittle and Regional Forester Brad Powell have had constructive

dialogue regarding the Emigrant Wilderness dams. We want this dialogue to continue and would be willing to work with the Committee, Mr. Doolittle, the State of

California, and other interested parties to resolve this issue.

H.R. 427, ‘‘Watershed of the Little Sandy River’’

H.R. 427, if enacted, would add approximately 2,900 acres of Federal land in the

Little Sandy River watershed to the Bull Run Watershed Management Unit. Currently, the Bull Run Watershed Management Unit is composed of approximately

95,000 acres of national forest system land near Portland, Oregon. In addition,

H.R. 427 would amend Public Law 95–200 to prohibit timber harvest activities and

general public access to the entire Bull Run Watershed Management Unit including

the 2,900 acres added to the unit by this bill. Forest related restoration management activities would be precluded on 8,600 acres of national forest and Bureau of

Land Management (BLM) administered lands. This includes management options

such as thinning or selective harvests to reduce fuel hazards in high fire-prone

areas. These restrictions may not be warranted for the Little Sandy River watershed.

The Administration believes that existing forest plans provide significant protection for the health of the Little Sandy River watershed and preservation of future

options. Specifically, the Little Sandy River watershed is designated a Tier 2 Key

watershed. This designation emphasizes high water quality, as well as fish and watershed restoration.

The point of diversion where Portland draws its water from the Bull Run River

is upstream from the confluence with the Little Sandy River. A water supply option

study conducted by the City of Portland in 1992 dismissed the option of developing

the Little Sandy as a municipal water source because of issues related to water

rights, cost of development, limited capacity, and impacts to a variety of resources.

Therefore, in the foreseeable future it is unlikely that the water of the Little Sandy

will be used as a municipal water source. A Regional Water Supply Plan completed

in 1996 by 27 water providers also dismissed the option of the Little Sandy Basin

as a water supply source at that time but advocated protection. In addition, if municipal water rights were ever obtained for the Little Sandy River, the requirement

under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) to maintain in-stream water flows for the

recovery of Federally listed fish would probably restrict water depletion even for

municipal use.

The Oregon Resources Conservation Act of 1996 (Division B of P.L. 104–208) directed the Secretary of Agriculture to study the portion of the Little Sandy River

watershed within the Bull Run Watershed Management Unit. The Forest Service,

in consultation with the City of Portland, a private citizen-based Provincial Advisory

Committee, and other interested parties, completed the study and submitted it to

Congress in 1998. The study recommended that the area continue to be managed

under the direction of the NWFP. The reasons cited by the study are as follows:

• The Little Sandy River has not been and currently is not planned to be used

to provide drinking water; and

• The waters of the Little Sandy River may be needed to provide for the needs

of fish species being considered for listing under the ESA.

Since that time, both Chinook salmon and winter steelhead in the Sandy River

Basin were listed under the ESA.

BLM has expressed concern with the terminology in section 3, Land Reclassification, and other references to land classification in H.R. 427, urging that the use of

public lands classification terminology should remain consistent with existing usage

and statutes.

There are many environmental safeguards already in place for the Little Sandy

River and other sensitive watersheds in the Pacific Northwest. We would like to

20

discuss the concepts put forward in this bill with the Committee to determine how

we can meet the concerns of the Oregon delegation under existing authorities.

In conclusion, I want to re-emphasize that, although there are points of concern

related to these three bills, both the Department and the Agency are committed to

working cooperatively with the Committee and the bill sponsors toward solutions

that will meet our mutual concerns and objectives.

This concludes my testimony. I would be happy to answer any questions that you

may have.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. I will start. When was it first brought

to the Forest Service’s attention that there was a problem with

these boundaries in regards to this specific problem?

Ms. COLLINS. I think we have been—we have known, as we have

been working through some of these issues with access on a caseby-case basis, that there have been issues regarding whether or not

these water systems were in the wilderness, and when they were

in the wilderness, what their rights were for access. So every time

we have gotten a request, we have been dealing with it, I think,

on an individual basis. Because they are in the wilderness, based

on the technical language of the Wilderness Bill of 1984, we were

treating them as part of the wilderness, granting access based on

what rights they had to access at the time the bill was created.

And that means it is different for each one, so in terms of recognizing it as a problem, I think a lot of people have known that this

has been an issue and a point of tension probably since the wilderness bill was created.

Mr. MCINNIS. I guess my point, where I am going, Ms. Collins,

is that if the responsibility for the problem rests with the Forest

Service, I would expect that the Forest Service would be cooperative upon the first contact that there is a problem and work to resolve it in that manner.

Mr. Chairman, do you have any questions?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, not really, except hopefully what Ms. Collins

said from the Forest Service, that we could work this out. Frankly,

as I look at over 20 years of passing a lot of wilderness legislation,

I sometimes wonder if we should just draw the line a little higher

and not put any of that in wilderness, you know, just—but we have

got in this habit of cherry-stemming. I really don’t know if that was

the intent of the law. We could have put it much higher, put a lot

less acreage in and not done that.

We have got a number of—a piece of legislation pending that will

be coming before these committees about cherry-stemming. I really

wonder if that is the right thing to do, but it seems to put a few

more acres in, make a few people happy. But on this one, if I

thought this would have been a hassle, I am sure we would have

moved that line up much higher and made sure that the wilderness

line was above where the water system came in, but that is water

under the bridge now, not much we can do about it.

But I appreciate the comments of the Forest Service. I am sure

we can work this out. I would appreciate you examining the bill

very carefully and seeing if you have any heartburn with it because

it gets reported out of the Committee.

Ms. COLLINS. I would like to do that. Thank you.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Inslee.

Mr. INSLEE. Thank you, a couple questions.

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I have been advised that there is one provision in the bill that

affects other wilderness areas and access to water systems in other

wilderness areas in Utah. Could you explain what the impact of

that would be on other wilderness areas?

Ms. COLLINS. Well, that is that Section 5 that I was talking

about a minute ago, and what we are concerned with there is that

the term, ‘‘other systems’’ or ‘‘other systems in general’’ could be

broadly interpreted to apply to all wilderness areas in the State of

Utah, not just the Mount Nebo, and not just these water systems,

or not even necessarily just water systems. And again, I think it

is just a matter of us sitting down and looking at that language.

It might have just been a convenient word to pick, but has some

other connotations to it. So I think we do have to be careful with

the language we use, so that it does not get more broadly applied.

Mr. INSLEE. Well, I hope that gets resolved. I would echo your

concerns in that regard. Is there anything that you could suggest

that would not be too onerous a provision, if the wilderness boundary is adjusted, to have some parameters on the type of maintenance or construction that is done in the area that could help

maintain the basic character of the watershed? In other words,

does it make sense to you perhaps to talk about parameters of

what type of construction methods to use, or, you know, where to

put these lines? Is there a way to at least consider how to do this

from a method that doesn’t damage the watershed or the rest of

the wilderness?

Ms. COLLINS. We have—if this bill were to be enacted, we would

have to amend our forest plans for those access roads into those

areas. And so what we would have to do is go through an environmental process to determine exactly, in a very public way, how a

road would be upgraded and at what level. So all of that would be

done and it would be done in the watershed context. That is part

of that planning process that we would have to go through should

this bill be enacted.

Mr. INSLEE. Would it make sense to do that now as part of this

process, to define with some parameters what type of road or what

type of pipe or what areas to use before you redraw the boundary?

Ms. COLLINS. You know, I just don’t know how to answer that.

I am not really sure if that would make sense in part because how

we manage those roads outside a wilderness system does come

under all the other environmental laws that we would have to go

through and be obligated to go through under the National

Environmental Policy Act.

So, if we were to do that, we would be taking that on as part

of rewriting this bill.

Mr. INSLEE. Thank you.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Peterson?

Mr. PETERSON. No questions.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Holt?

Mr. HOLT. No, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MCINNIS. Ms. McCollum?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Looking at some comments that were made

here, provided in the packet, and when looking at moving the

boundaries, one of the comments that was in here is the Forest

Service would need to—if the boundaries were moved, they would

22

need access on the roads to maintain the water systems. And the

comment that was made by this individual was the assumption

that the Forest Service could certainly close those roads to the general public except for the maintenance that the county would need

to get into the water facilities.

So are you saying that, when you are talking about upgrading

roads in that, are you talking about upgrading them just for routine maintenance, or are you talking about looking at upgrading— I am kind of taken aback by your comments, because a road for

routine maintenance for maintaining those facilities certainly

sounds different than what you were talking about.

Ms. COLLINS. We may not have to upgrade anything, and that

would be part of that analysis. We might, in places where this is

a municipal watershed and there may be a need to do something

to maintain that, a lot of that is the process we would have to go

through as we do that NEPA process. But again, that would have

to be done for each one of those individual access points. One of

them I think is a trail and will probably stay a trail, for example.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Do you know if the Forest Service has any other

record of doing this type of— Ms. COLLINS. Cherry-stemming?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. —road maintenance in the past? And if you

have, have you had pressure for other outside groups other than

counties or maintenance facilities to come in with off-road vehicles

or other access, with motorized vehicles butting up into and going

into the wilderness area?

Ms. COLLINS. I think every time—and this is one of the reasons

as we develop wildernesses, we are reluctant to do cherrystemming, because it introduces a potential use into an area that

is natural, and you end up with some law enforcement issues. All

of those are administrative Forest Service issues that we end up

managing through—I have managed a number of wilderness areas,

and when you have close access to a wilderness, you are always

managing those kinds of problems, and so, yeah, that is an issue.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, if the Forest Service could provide— could provide you and the Committee maybe some examples of success stories or problems that they have had with this, that would

be helpful for me.

Ms. COLLINS. I would be happy to do that.

Mr. MCINNIS. I might add to that, that remember, as I understand it, this wasn’t supposed to be in the wilderness area anyway,

and the reason it is in the wilderness area now is because it was

a mistake. And now to go on and demand higher standards of the

people whose right it was to access it in the first place because they

were mistakenly put in a wilderness is patently unfair on its face.

So I think we need to keep that in mind.

Second of all, I can tell you in my district, which is primarily

Federal and public lands, a lot of those rights are not owned by the

Government, and water out in my area, as you may know, it is considered blood. And the fact that they own water rights, they have

a right to go up there under our Colorado law, to maintain and to

quantify until you put those rights to a beneficial use. So I don’t

think that the Government ought to look like we are really bending

over and doing somebody a favor to let them have a trail to go up

23

and maintain their water facilities on rights that they own that

have been recognized by the Federal Government since the beginning of water time, so to speak, in Colorado.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, I wasn’t disagreeing with that philosophy, with that statement. I was just trying to find out, is after

those roads have been put in, what other pressures those property

people, accessing the property, probably don’t want other folks fooling around up in there either. I just want to know what kind of

pressures the Forest Service gets in, and what is going to be the

cost of us maintaining and policing this if we need to.

Mr. MCINNIS. And certainly that is an appropriate question. I

just have a little sensitivity when it comes to water and the Federal Government’s reign over our access to our water rights. And

as I would reiterate here, this was never intended to be in the wilderness in the first place, and I just don’t want a higher standard

put on these people.

With that, I do thank the witnesses on our first—oh, go ahead.

Mr. INSLEE. Mr. Chairman, if I could have one more question.

Mr. MCINNIS. Certainly.

Mr. INSLEE. Thank you. The desire here by the proponents is to

make this available for maintaining these water systems. On the

other hand, if you do take it out of wilderness, it could end up, for

a wide variety of recreational and other purposes that were not associated with the intent of this bill.

If we were to design a system where you basically took it out of

wilderness, allowed mechanized access to maintain, if necessary,

these water systems, but did not open it up for other purposes,

what would be your recommendation, the best way to do that?

What would you call it? How would you define it? Do you see what

I am getting at?

Ms. COLLINS. What would we call the sections that are inside,

that are cherry-stemmed out?

Mr. INSLEE. Correct. In other words, if we wanted to design a

product to allow the mechanized maintenance of these systems, but

not open it up to all these other purposes that otherwise might be

available on Forest Service land, how would we define it? What

would be the best way to structure it, in your view?

Ms. COLLINS. I would probably have to get back to you and talk

to you to provide more information on that. But off the top, I would

say that we would manage those as we would manage any right

to access other places. It is different because it is inside a wilderness, but we still have all the authorities to gate in cases where

we need to gate to keep the general public out, so that the permittee can use the site. And again, I think, if you look at all of

these individual—all eight of these, you will find that each one has

a little different story and a little bit different need, so coming up

with an answer or a name for all of them may not be the right

thing.

But again, doing the right thing, we could come up with some

ideas about how to do that for each one of those.

Mr. INSLEE. I would ask you to explore that, and perhaps we can

talk again in that regard.

Ms. COLLINS. That would be great.

Mr. INSLEE. Thank you.

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Ms. COLLINS. Be happy to do that.

Mr. MCINNIS. No further questions. And again, I thank the witness. Ms. Collins, if you would remain there, I think you are a witness on all three bills, so it will save you having to continue to

come to the table.

Ms. COLLINS. Okay.

Mr. MCINNIS. If there are any additional questions for the witnesses, I would ask the members to put it in writing, and the witnesses can respond. We will keep the record open for 10 days for

those responses.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Brougher, you may come on up to the witness

stand. I would like to introduce our second panel. We are going to

have Mr. Doolittle, who is on the dais, Mr. Steve Brougher, Issues

Coordinator for the Central Sierra Club of Wilderness Watch, and

of course, we have Ms. Collins again for this bill.

[The prepared statement of Mr. McInnis follows:]

Statement of The Honorable Scott McInnis, Chairman,

Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health, on H.R. 434

I would like to thank my friend and colleague Congressman Doolittle for his work

on the Emigrant Wilderness Protection Act.

H.R. 434 would give the Secretary of Agriculture the authority to enter into a cooperative agreement with non-federal entities to retain, maintain and operate at

private expense the 18 small check dams and weirs—each of which are largely

unnoticeable—located within the Emigrant Wilderness boundary. The work would

be done under terms and conditions established by the Secretary and without use

of mechanized transport or motorized equipment. The bill authorizes $20,000 to be

appropriated to cover administrative costs incurred by the Secretary to comply with

the National Environmental Policy Act.

Although not specifically indicated within the legislation, it is widely believed to

have been the intent of Congress when it passed the Emigrant Wilderness Act in

1974 to preserve the 18 ‘‘check dam’’ structures. Among others, the Chief Recreation

Officer for the Stanislaus National Forest, has repeatedly gone on record as stating

it was his belief these dams were to be maintained. Additionally, report language

for the 1974 Act explained:

Within the area recommended for wilderness designation, there are drift

fences (5 miles) which will be maintained, but several cabins and barns will

be removed within ten years. Two snow cabins will be retained. The weirs

and small dams will likewise be retained. (House Report No. 93–989, p.10.

April 11, 1974)

In my opinion, the more compelling reason for supporting this legislation is the

many ecological benefits associated with the continued existence of these small

structures. These scarcely noticeable dams have for decades provided a consistent

flow of water to lakes, streams and wild meadows, which in turn have provided important habitat for fish and various plant and animal species, including endangered

species. To remove these structures in the name of protecting the environment,

when in fact their removal will harm a number of species and other natural processes, seems to me to be counterintuitive.

Again, I commend Mr. Doolittle for his hard work and leadership on this legislation and I look forward to working with him to secure its enactment during the

107th Congress. I look forward to hearing my colleague Congressman Doolittle’s testimony, as well as the testimony provided by Ms. Collins of the Forest Service and

Steve Brougher of the Central Sierra Wilderness Watch.

Again, I would remind the witnesses that we expect compliance

with the five-minute rule, and if you will be outside that, you may

submit your testimony for the record, and it will appear in full in

the record. I now recognize Mr. Doolittle. Mr. Doolittle, you may

proceed.

25

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF

CALIFORNIA

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Mr. Chairman, I thank you and the members for

allowing me to rejoin my old committee.

This bill has been—actually it has been—this is the fourth time

I am introducing it. It has been passed out of the House twice, once

with two negative votes and once unanimously in the last Congress, and it was also passed out of the Senate Policy Committee

as well. The bill has never cleared the Senate. In one case a hold

was placed on it by one of the Senators for some mysterious reason.

And then last time the Clinton Administration prevailed upon a

friendly Senator to put a hold on it. So I just wanted to indicate

to the members it is not new legislation. It deals with a heavilyutilized area in my district called the Emigrant Wilderness.

I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman, that the pictures I have be distributed to the members. I don’t think I have one for every member, but we have enough that you will all see them, and I will just

refer for a moment. These are small—there are 18 small dams that

were constructed between 1921 and 1954, that were constructed in

cooperation with two agencies, the U.S. Forest Service and Civilian

Conservation Corps, and then local volunteers.

When we say ‘‘dams’’ that may create an image of Hoover Dam

or Grand Coolee Dam, but these are very small structures. They

are made out of the local materials, and as you can see, the ones

you are looking at in those pictures are pretty representative with

the exception of one dam, which is 25 feet high and is the tallest.

For the other 17 structures, there is no structure that is over 10

feet tall.

If you take a look—now, there are pictures on both sides of this

handout—and if you will look at pictures 5 and 6, those are pictures of Middle Emigrant Lake, and that dam that you see there

is—and by the way, in picture 6, it is in the extreme lower righthand corner, you can see the top of the dam, and then you can see,

on picture 5, you know, a full view of the dam from downstream.

It is an 8-foot tall structure, and look at the amount of water that

is impounded by it there. This has created tremendous habitat for

fisheries for endangered species, and this is hot, dry country in

California in the summertime. And but for the presence of these

dams, this would be pretty much dried up. It would be just hot,

dry, arid country.

So they are very popular for people to hike in there, and by the

way, to make a tour of these, you have an 8-hour ride one way,

even to get in to see them. So it is pretty much for the hardy, who

even make it up there.

This was not a wilderness at the time these structures were

built, but at the time the wilderness debate happened and this area

was placed in the wilderness, these structures were not found to

be inconsistent with this. They were described by Senator Cranston

as substantially unnoticeable, and indeed, they are, and yet, they

provide a lot of benefit.

Well, the Forest Service, a few years ago, had made a determination that they were going to allow these structures to deteriorate

so that there wouldn’t eventually be any of them. That would be

26

a real loss, and if that were to happen, the effect of that would be

to further concentrate visitors into other areas of the Emigrant

Wilderness. That would be very undesirable. And I would note, Mr.

Chairman, that my fellow colleague from California, George Miller,

who at the time was Ranking Member on the Committee, was an

enthusiastic supporter of this bill precisely for this reason. He felt

that there was, you know, a very beneficial effect to these. There

is huge local support in Tuolumne County, where most of these are,

and that is where this Fred Leighton, the man who kind of spearheaded this effort years ago, is from.

So I would bring this bill to you again, Mr. Chairman. Well, even

the local environmental groups support it except for one, as far as

I know, and you are going to hear from that one in a minute. I

would—I appreciate your hearing me out on this, and would ask

for your favorable consideration.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Doolittle follows:]

Statement of The Honorable John T. Doolittle, a Representative in

Congress from the State of California, on H.R. 434

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you for holding this hearing on an important piece

of legislation, H.R. 434, the Emigrant Wilderness Protection Act. As you know, this

legislation was designed to provide for the maintenance of 18 small dams and weirs

within the Emigrant Wilderness. As the Committee knows, this is the fourth Congress I have introduced this legislation, and versions of this legislation have garnered broad bipartisan support, including from this Committee’s past Ranking

Member, Representative George Miller. The bill passed the House by a margin of

424–2 in the 105th Congress, and unanimously during the 106th. On both occasions,

my Emigrant Wilderness bill was approved by the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, only to suffer defeat from threats of ‘‘holds’’ to be placed

by the Clinton Administration.

The Emigrant Wilderness’’ 18 check dam system was built between 1921–1954

through the combined efforts of the U.S. Forest Service, the California Conservation

Corps, and local volunteer groups. The system works to enhance the high elevation

lake fisheries and species habitat by keeping year-round flows in the streams. Most

of these structures go unnoticed unless you know exactly where to look for them.

They were built with the natural rock from the surrounding area, and they are insignificant in size, mostly ranging from 3-5 feet in height.

H.R. 434 will allow a non-federal entity to pay the costs of maintaining and repairing these substantially unnoticeable structures by allowing the Secretary of Agriculture to enter into a cooperative agreement providing a non-federal entity the

opportunity to conduct the necessary maintenance.

By providing for the continued maintenance of all 18 dams, we will protect the

stream flow system within the Emigrant Wilderness that for over 70 years has

maintained an ecosystem of lakes, streams, and meadows of which many species,

including the great American Bald Eagle, depend upon. It is clear that these small

structures are important, as the California Department of Fish and Game has stated in an appeal to the U.S. Forest Service that ‘‘survey results on file with the

Forest Service attest to the fisheries’’ benefits from the dams, including increased

volume of water with acceptable levels of dissolved oxygen and temperatures that

support trout populations. In addition, the downstream release of water during dry

years has significant benefits to aquatic life and the streams’’ fisheries.—

Furthermore, when Congress debated the Emigrant Wilderness Act of 1974, there

was extensive dialogue concerning these structures, and it is clear from reading

transcripts of those past proceedings that Congress intended them to be maintained,

and that structures were consistent with the 1964 Wilderness Act as they were

‘‘substantially unnoticeable.’’

Mr. Chairman, if these small, unnoticeable dams are allowed to deteriorate, many

of the lakes and streams will dry up during the summer and fall months, resulting

in negative impacts on the ecosystem, fisheries, and the area’s tourism economy.

Again, I thank you for holding this hearing. It is my hope that we can move this

bill forward with the same resounding support it had in past Congresses.

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Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. Mr. Brougher, you may proceed for five

minutes.

STATEMENT OF STEVE BROUGHER, ISSUES COORDINATOR,

CENTRAL SIERRA CHAPTER OF WILDERNESS WATCH

Mr. BROUGHER. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the

committee.

My name is Steve Brougher, and I am a volunteer with Wilderness Watch, a national nonprofit organization, dedicated to preservation of America’s designated wilderness. I am here to testify on

behalf of Wilderness Watch about the concerns we and 20 other

local, state and national organizations have expressed with

H.R. 434, a bill to require the operation and maintenance of 18

dams in the Emigrant Wilderness.

I began working in the Emigrant as a Wilderness Ranger in

1975, the year of wilderness designation. I became intimately

familiar with this special place, and developed throughout my 22-

year career, as a wildlife biologist and wilderness manager, a thorough understanding of the importance of preserving such remnants

of our wildland heritage. I took seriously my obligation as a public

servant to uphold the intent of Congress so eloquently expressed in

the Wilderness Act, and have continued to work for proper protection since retiring.

Much of the information you will hear about the value of this

dam from the proponents of this bill is unsubstantiated opinion

contrary to the facts. From my years of experience, I can say unequivocally that these dams are not essential for providing recreational opportunities, for sustaining a fishery, or for the ecological health of the Emigrant Wilderness, nor are they of any economic importance for local businesses. They do adversely affect the

wilderness values.

But do not take my word for it. This information is readily available to anyone interested in knowing the facts in reports by the

Stanislaus National Forest that I have cited in my reporting documents.

The premise of H.R. 434 is to clarify the intent of Congress that

these dams were to be maintained and operated in perpetuity. I

provided a discussion of congressional intent in my supporting documents. Simply put, congressional intent for the dams to remain

is a spurious argument that negates key underpinnings of the Wilderness Act and is not supported by the legislative history. Public

Law 93-632 contained no special provision for maintenance of the

dams, but states that the area will be administered in accordance

with the Wilderness Act.

The purpose of the Wilderness Act was to preserve some areas

in their natural condition, untrammeled by man and without permanent improvements. The Act also directs that Wilderness will be

administered in a way that preserves the Wilderness character,

and specifically prohibits structures and installations.

H.R. 434 completely frustrates the intent of the Wilderness Act

by putting nonconforming uses back into the area. Did Congress intend to undo the very purpose of the legislation it passed when it

designated the wilderness? Two examples will illustrate the fallacy

of this illogical argument and how it would play out across the

28

entire National Wilderness Preservation system. Some wildernesses contained old homesteads that were logged, plowed,

etcetera. Should we assume that Congress intended for these old

homesteads to be restored, the encroaching forest cut back, the

buildings reconstructed? Many wildernesses experienced off-road

vehicle use prior to designation, and the evidence of that use remains. Should we assume that Congress intended for ORV use to

continue in these areas today?

The wilderness resource is a condition where wild nature prevails without human intervention or artifacts. This resource once

existed throughout this nation, now greatly reduced from its original extent. Dubious arguments about the historical nature of the

dams overlook a much larger historical perspective of national significance. The framers of the Wilderness Act recognized the historical significance of the wilderness resource to the development and

character of this country, and took action to preserve the last remnants of this historical legacy for future generations. The dams are

80-years old or less, compared to the thousands of years that the

natural environment of the Emigrant has developed and flourished

without them.

H.R. 434 is an ill-conceived bill that will degrade important wilderness values and set a terrible precedent for the entire National

Wilderness Preservation system. Special legislation to override the

Wilderness Act opens the door for similar efforts to chip away at

this vital conservation law, incrementally degrading the values the

Act was intended to protect. It also interferes with an established

8-year planning process for the Emigrant Wilderness and would

shut out many citizens who have a legitimate interest in the outcome of this issue. And despite past assurances that the dams

would be maintained at no cost to the Government, H.R. 434 contains a provision authorizing the appropriation of $20,000 for administrative costs, thus requiring taxpayers to pay the cost of degrading the wilderness values of the Emigrant Wilderness.

Maintaining these dams is the antithesis of wilderness. Their

purpose is to trammel the hydrology and ecology of the area for illusionary recreation benefits, not to preserve the wilderness character. To realize the powerful vision of the Wilderness Act, we must

be committed to the idea that we respectfully leave areas where

wild nature can flourish. This type of action will slowly erode what

has been preciously attained, making it easier to make more

changes of increasing significance. Eventually the wildlands we

thought were protected in a natural state in perpetuity will be reduced to nothing more than recreational parks that cater to comfort and convenience. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Brougher follows:]

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Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. Ms. Collins?

STATEMENT OF SALLY COLLINS, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF,

NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM, USDA FOREST SERVICE

Ms. COLLINS. Again, we are looking forward to working with you

on this particular bill as well.

To summarize again, H.R. 434 would require the Secretary of

Agriculture to enter into a cooperative agreement to provide for the

retention, maintenance and operation, at private expense, of 18

dams and weirs within the boundaries of the Emigrant Wilderness

in California.

Now, these small rock and mortar dams have deteriorated over

time as maintenance levels have decreased. Some of these structures are in poor condition, are leaking significantly, or have

washed out or no longer function. The remaining structures are in

fair to good condition. Because of the age and overall character of

some of the dams, several are now eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places.

During the 1970’s and 1980’s, maintenance of the dams was

shared between the Forest Service and the California Department

of Fish and Game. The California Department of Fish and Game

ceased maintaining or operating 11 of the structures, which is what

our memorandum of understanding provided for, in 1988 when the

permit expired.

The Stanislaus National Forest developed an environmental impact statement and record of decision in 1998, that outlined the

management for all of the Emigrant Wilderness, not just these particular dams. A decision document allowed for the continued maintenance of eight dams. The record of decision received 14 appeals,

but that decision, at least the portion of the decision related to

these dams, was vacated by the Regional Forester in 1999. This is

significant, because at the current time, there is no decision document directing what to do about any of these 18 facilities.

On November 8th, the Regional Forester met with California

Fish and Game, and agreed to a joint strategy for the future management of these dams. This strategy outlined the need to maintain eight dams in the Emigrant Wilderness.

Now, recently, there have been discussions between Congressman Doolittle and Regional Forester Brad Powell. I think as of last

Friday, the Forest Supervisor met with Congressman Doolittle and

some others, and then Brad Powell may be meeting again tomorrow. I just met with Mr. Powell on this a few minutes ago, actually.

We want this dialogue to continue, and are willing to work with

the Committee, Mr. Doolittle, and the State of California, and any

other interested parties to try to resolve this issue, and that is

where I would like to leave that.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you.

Mr. Doolittle, do you have questions?

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Well, maybe just an observation, Mr. Chairman.

Where there is water, there is life. I don’t think anything would be

served by allowing these structures to deteriorate, and they are deteriorating because they have been precluded by the Forest Service

from being maintained since that decision was made a few years

ago.

42

All we are asking for is—these dams were built by the Forest

Service in conjunction with volunteers and the CCC, and the volunteers would like to be able to go in and maintain them. At one

point they actually hauled all this material up there, you know,

rough country, upland country, eight hours to travel into, and once

they got there with all of this, they were informed that they would

not be allowed to carry out the task of restoration. People arranged

to take off time for—you know, to get vacation time off. It was a

major volunteer effort. And when they went to all this trouble, they

were thwarted. And that just seems to me tragic. It would make— it would just concentrate undue use in other parts of the wilderness area, where having them would make it much more desirable

all the way around.

So that would be my only comment, and I appreciate the offer

of the Forest Service to work together, and look forward to doing

that.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. Ms. McCollum?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I heard in the testimony

from the Forest Service, you talked about maintaining with private

funds, and then there was a combination of the State of California

and the Federal Government at one point in time. Can you comment on the appropriation of the bill? Currently we are not putting

any dollars into maintaining these, and this would be something

new?

Ms. COLLINS. No. Currently we are not, and to—there is much

more that has to be done. There is maintenance and actually upgrading of the facilities, because many of them are deteriorated,

which would be an initial investment. There are planning dollars

to do the environmental documentation around that, because, as I

said, there is no planning document or NEPA document in place

to do anything on any of those sites right now, and that has to be

completed. And then there is an annual maintenance fee. All of

that takes money, and I think the partnership with California does

offer an opportunity to negotiate some of that for some of these

sites. They are not willing to do all of them. They are willing to

consider—I don’t even think that they have gotten to that point in

the negotiations, but clearly they have an interest in some of the

facilities, and so that would be the next step, to work with them

on partnering on some of that, and we have other people interested

in helping with that.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, if I may, another question. Could you

comment on whether or not there are exotic species that are part

of the reason why the dams need to be—or people would wish to

keep them in place?

Ms. COLLINS. Yes. There is at least one species, and I am going

to see if I can remember it. It is a frog. It is a yellow-legged frog,

and I do not remember the prefix of it, but there is one species that

is living in some of the meadows up there, and there may be others

as well. And we can get you that information if you would like that.

Would you like us to do that?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Well, I asked about exotic, not endangered.

Ms. COLLINS. Okay.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. There are no exotic species then?

Ms. COLLINS. Oh, exotic fish species in the sense—

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Ms. MCCOLLUM. We are talking about the dam and the water,

so, yes.

Ms. COLLINS. Got you, yeah, in the wilderness. I cannot answer

whether or not they have been putting exotic species in there, but

I can get you that answer.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, if there is someone else who could

answer it? I would think that the Forest Service, testifying before

on this important issue, would know whether or not there was exotic fish species, but Mr. Chair, I believe the gentleman at the

table can answer that question. That is my last question.

Mr. MCINNIS. Ms. McCollum, maybe you can help me, because I

am not clear on your question as it has been stated. I do not know

what you mean by ‘‘exotic.’’ Now, my understanding of exotic is it

is an imported species that— Ms. MCCOLLUM. Right. Something that is not natural to the ecosystem, that is correct.

Mr. MCINNIS. So your question, is there something in those waters that is not natural to those waters as a result of those dams;

is that correct?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Yes.

Mr. MCINNIS. Can you answer the question, now rephrased?

Ms. COLLINS. The State of California has been seeding those

lakes with young fish for a long time, but I cannot tell you at this

time whether they are exotics or not, but I will get you that answer. It could be that Steve knows, but I do not know.

Mr. BROUGHER. I would be happy to, if that is appropriate.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Doolittle, could you add anything to assist Ms.

McCollum?

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Well, I really cannot because the lakes have

been stocked, but they are stocked with trout that do exist in this

general area. I don’t know necessarily, you know, in the specific little lakes that were created, but they are in the Sierras. There is

an issue now about maybe not stocking some of the lakes that are

in the habitat of the yellow-legged frog, which is now endangered,

and that the fish are eating the frogs, so Fish and Game is looking

at that issue, and there may be some areas. But I don’t think they

are looked upon as exotic species.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair?

Mr. MCINNIS. Go ahead, Ms. McCollum.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Chair, if the other witness—

Mr. MCINNIS. I think you need to turn on your microphone.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. It is my voice. Mr. Chair, if I could ask the

other testifier if they are familiar with bringing fish that are not

part of the ecosystem into the dam and water area, if they have

any information?

Mr. BROUGHER. Yeah, I can speak to that. Historically, the high

country of the Sierra Nevada did not support fish above about

7,000 feet, except in the southern end of the range. The Emigrant

Wilderness, therefore, fish were not native to the lakes of the high

country there.

Fish were introduced into that area beginning in about the turn

of the century or the turn of the 20th century, and the species that

are stocked there are rainbow trout, eastern brook trout, golden

trout, which is native to the Sierras, but not to that region, and

44

occasionally brown trout. So the fishery that we are talking about

in the Emigrant Wilderness that these dams were built to support

are not native to that area, and they are indeed preying upon and

responsible for a decline in the yellow-legged frog.

Mr. MCINNIS. What was the last part, they are responsible for

what?

Mr. BROUGHER. That the introduction of those fish are in large

part responsible for the decline of the mountain yellow-legged frog.

Ms. COLLINS. I also have been told that what they have been introducing there is brown trout.

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Mr. Chairman, I would add that these fish are

very tasty for the endangered species bald eagles that thrive in

those areas because of those lakes.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Simpson?

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Frankly, I find this discussion kind of bizarre. As I understand it, these dams were built

before the Wilderness Act went into effect, and the Wilderness Act,

Congress clearly has the power to make designations within—when

it creates a wilderness, to preserve these dams or to take them out,

or to do whatever they want to do, and apparently they made the

decision to leave those dams in place when they created this wilderness.

And now you want to go in and remove those dams, so you want

us to trammel upon the land to make it appear that it was never

trammeled on? I mean, this is bizarre, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. BROUGHER. Would you like me to respond to that?

Mr. SIMPSON. Yeah.

Mr. BROUGHER. Okay. Yes, they were present before they became

wilderness, and at the time of designation they were recognized as

being present. But Congress did not write into legislation any exception to the provisions of the Wilderness Act. There are times

when that does occur. In this case, they chose not to do that. They

chose to recognize the dams were there, that it did not detract from

making the area wilderness, but that they did not make any special provision to continue maintenance of these dams. Instead, they

have a provision in that bill that says that the wilderness will be

managed according to the provisions of the Wilderness Act.

Our position on this is not to remove the dams, but rather just

to leave them, no longer maintain them, and allow nature to take

its course, and over time, to restore these areas back to a more natural condition.

Certainly right now many of these dams have fallen apart, have

been overgrown with vegetation. It would require a substantial disturbance to these areas not only to rebuild them, but then to continue to operate them with fluctuating water levels as they were

designed to do.

Mr. SIMPSON. Do these dams destroy your wilderness experience?

Mr. BROUGHER. Well, for me they do, and for a lot of people, they

do. And it is not just a matter of personal—you know, personal like

or dislike, it also has to do with the intent of the Wilderness Act

to manage areas in a natural condition, that is, in a way in which

nature can take its course, in which humans do not manipulate, actively manipulate the environment to create a certain effect.

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Mr. SIMPSON. I look at these pictures, and I kind of—I find it

strange that they would degrade your wilderness experience. Beavers make dams and I guess they don’t degrade the wilderness experience, but if you stack a couple rocks together, that is a problem, which is what they are. You don’t think that when they recognized these dams in designating this a wilderness area, that their

intent was to maintain them, that they said, ‘‘Yeah, those dams are

there and we are just going to let them fall apart’’, that that was

their intent?

Mr. BROUGHER. No, I don’t believe that was the intent. If you

look at the legislative history, the complete legislative history—and

I am not going to go into all the details of that; I have provided

that in my supporting documentation, it would take a while to discuss it all—but if you look at that entire history, I think that you

will come to the conclusion that Congress had not intended—I

mean, they saw the dams, they discussed them, there was discussion of retaining them. Ultimately, in the final bill, that was not

done.

We also have correspondence from former Senator Cranston, indicating—he was a sponsor of a bill for the Emigrant Wilderness— indicating that he did not feel that there was congressional intent,

I mean he was involved, but he had no intent for these dams to

be maintained in perpetuity.

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find this just really

a strange situation, where you go in and create a wilderness, you

preserve a wilderness area that obviously has some human activity

that has occurred on it, and then our intent is to pretend that no

human activity has ever occurred on it. I mean, I find that a bizarre situation, I really do. I can understand going into an area

where there is true wilderness, where humans have not impacted,

they have not built dams, have not built roads, that type of thing,

and saying, ‘‘We are going to preserve this as a wilderness.’’ But

you can go to the City of Blackfoot, Idaho and say, ‘‘We want to

make this a wilderness. We are going to tear down all the buildings

or let them fall down by nature.’’ I find that contrary to the Wilderness Act. So I don’t have any more questions. I am still trying to

figure out what the heck is going on.

Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Doolittle, do you want to do a quick wrap-up?

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Let me just do a quick wrap-up. In the Committee report for the 1974 Wilderness Act, it says the following,

quote: ‘‘Within the area recommended for wilderness designation,

there are drift fences (5 miles), which will be maintained, but several cabins and barns will be removed within 10 years. Two snow

cabins will be retained. The weirs and small dams will likewise be

retained.’’ Now, that was in 1974, and in 1977 a former historic Chairman

of this Committee, Mo Udall, there was a bill passed out of here

that pertained to wilderness, and in the language of the bill it says

the following. Well, actually, this goes right to the—this is the

counterpoint to Mr. Brougher’s testimony. This is what it says in

the Committee report, quote: ‘‘Numerous other aspects of the socalled purity issue have been debated over the past several years,

and especially during the hearings on H.R. 3454’’—of which this is

the report for. ‘‘In some instances, the strictest interpretation of the

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Wilderness Act has led to stringent ‘purity criteria’ which have

prejudiced the potential recommendation of an area for further wilderness consideration. In others it has led to public opposition to

wilderness proposals based on what is and what is not perceived

to be, sometimes erroneously, permissible in wilderness areas, and

of the provisions of the 1964 Wilderness Act. After more than a

decade of experience, the Committee recognizes the problems with

different interpretations the Wilderness Act creates. The Committee was pleased to receive the new Administration’s less stringent interpretation of the Wilderness Act, and agrees that this new

direction is in order. To further clarify matters, the Committee considers it appropriate to comment in some detail on some of the

issues that current policies attempt to resolve and to offer its guidance as to how the Wilderness Act should now be interpreted as

it relates to certain uses and activities.’’ I’m just going to skip down to the one that pertains, fisheries enhancement. ‘‘Fisheries enhancement activities and facilities are

permissible and often highly desirable in wilderness areas to aid in

achieving the goal of preserving the wilderness character of the

area, as stated in Section 4(b) of the Wilderness Act. Such activities

and facilities include fish traps, stream barriers, aerial stocking,

and the protection and propagation of rare species.’’ End of quote

from the bill.

So, Mr. Chairman, that quote reveals there is a split. Amongst

most of the mainstream environmental community, certainly locally, heavily supports this bill. As you can see from the pictures,

those are very desirable areas that would add to most people’s view

of a wilderness experience. Clearly, it is not purity. Purity would

result in hot, dry steep slopes during the fall and late summer.

So I thank you for this opportunity to have this hearing, and look

forward to working with you.

Mr. MCINNIS. I thank Mr. Doolittle. I also thank the witnesses

on our second panel. The witnesses may have some additional

questions, and if you do, please ask for a response in writing. We

will hold the record open for 10 days in regards to that. Thank you

panel.

Mr. MCINNIS. I will now introduce our third panel. On Panel 3

we have the Honorable Earl Blumenauer from Oregon, and Mike

Rosenberger, Administrator, Bureau of Water Works, Portland, Oregon. Again, I would remind the members that your statements are

limited to five minutes. Congressman, you may proceed.

[The prepared statement of Mr. McInnis follows:]

Statement of The Honorable Scott McInnis, Chairman,

Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health, on H.R. 427

I thank the gentleman from Oregon, Mr. Blumenauer, for taking the time to testify before the Forests Subcommittee on H.R. 427.

H.R. 427, the Little Sandy Watershed Protection Act, would, in part, extend the

boundary of the Bull Run Management Unit to include the hydrologic boundary of

the Little Sandy watershed, an area spanning approximately 2,600 acres.

Up front, I must say that I have real concerns with this legislation. In my opinion,

it is critical that local land managers be given maximum flexibility to manage their

lands. After all, they know these resources a lot better than the folks back here in

Congress. And as most land managers would attest, you never know when you’re

going to need to adjust your management strategy for any number of unforeseen

reasons. This legislation would restrain that flexibility in the case of the Little

Sandy by statutorily imposing inflexible restrictions that, under the existing

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management plan, already exist. In my mind, Mr. Blumenauer, a case has to be

made as to why this designation is actually needed, again, recognizing that local

forest managers have already gone to great pains to protect this resource.

Having said that, I look forward to hearing the testimony of my colleague Mr.

Blumenauer, as well as the comments of Michael Rosenberger of the City of Portland and Sally Collins of the Forest Service.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE EARL BLUMENAUER, A

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF

OREGON

Mr. BLUMENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your

courtesy, and the opportunity to make a presentation with you this

morning, this afternoon. It seemed like this morning when we

started.

The subject of today’s bill, the Little Sandy Watershed Restoration Act, is something that I have been working on, beginning with

efforts with Senator Mark Hatfield in 1996, to deal with the protection of the Bull Run Sandy River Watershed area that provides

water to almost one-quarter of Oregon’s population.

The legislation that is before you today is the result of extensive

work. It has the unanimous support not only of the House delegation, but there is companion legislation that has been introduced

by the two U.S. Senators, in fact, passed the Senate in the last session of Congress.

It speaks to an area where there is 109 years of history dating

back to a proclamation from President Harrison, 109 years ago.

Ninety-seven years ago was the first congressional action. This is

an effort that is designed to protect the water and the fragile fish

habitat. There is, as near as I can tell, no objection to the proposal

that we have entered into before you that would extend the boundary of the Bull Run Management Unit to include the hydrologic

boundary of the Little Sandy Watershed. It protects a critical area

of potential drinking water, habitat for the Portland Metropolitan

area. It extends protection of water quality to deal with some of our

efforts at fish recovery under the ESA in the metropolitan area,

and it would authorize Clackamas County to seek watershed restoration projects, and maintain the balance in terms of resources

within the Oregon O&C counties.

It is something that is important to the City of Portland that I

represent, but also to people in the metropolitan area, and represents the sort of balanced thoughtful approach to protect habitat,

protect water resources, and work cooperatively with the Federal

Government as a partner.

I would like, if I could, to introduce Mike Rosenberger, who it is

my privilege to work with when I was Portland’s Commissioner of

Public Works, a gentleman with long history in this issue, who can

speak to the specifics of the proposal.

I will remain in case there are any questions of observations you

wish to direct to me.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Blumenauer follows:]

Statement of The Honorable Earl Blumenauer, a Representative in

Congress from the State of Oregon, on H.R. 427

Mr. Chairman, and members of the Subcommittee, I am Congressman Earl

Blumenauer, representing the 3rd Congressional District in Oregon. I appreciate the

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opportunity to come before you today, to describe our efforts to protect the Little

Sandy Watershed. As you know, my distinguished colleagues, Senator Ron Wyden

and Senator Gordon Smith, have introduced an identical measure in the Senate

(S. 254), and I appreciate the Committee moving so rapidly on this matter.

Perhaps no resource is more fundamental to the livability of our communities

than clean, safe drinking water. Fresh, pure water is critical for life and health and

is not necessarily a renewable resource. There is no environmental goal that should

have higher priority than protecting our valuable sources of drinking water. To ensure the health of our families today and of our communities in the future, we must

act to ensure that our water supplies are protected and used wisely.

H.R. 427 recognizes that the Bull Run Watershed is the Portland area’s cleanest

and most reliable drinking water source, serving nearly one million residents. Established in 1892, the Bull Run Reserve was hailed as a drinking water source that

could be shielded from human activities that pollute water. After its first municipal

use in 1895 a ‘‘phenomenal decrease’’ in typhoid fever resulted. Protection of water

quality and quantity, as well as preservation of the forest, was enhanced in 1904

under President Roosevelt’s Trespass Act, which allowed only those who affirmatively protected the forest and its streams to enter the reserve.

However, during the 1950’s, these protections were threatened when illegal logging began in the Bull Run. Logging was also extended to the Little Sandy Watershed, and by 1993, more than 350 miles of roads were built, mostly to facilitate logging, and sediment from these activities flowed into drinking water reserves.

In 1996, Congress established partial protection for the ‘‘Bull Run Management

Unit’’ (BRMU) through the Oregon Resources Conservation Act. Since then, citizens,

the City of Portland, and officials throughout the region have championed enacting

permanent protections for the public lands in the Bull Run Management Unit and

the Little Sandy Watershed. In fact, work to protect Bull Run began with the efforts

of former Senator Mark Hatfield. A bill to include the Little Sandy watershed in

the Bull Run Management Unit was introduced in both the 105th and 106th sessions of Congress.

The bill before you today, H.R. 427, extends the protection of Bull Run Management Unit by nearly 2600 acres to include the Little Sandy drainage and provides

for consistent land management protections for all lands within the Bull Run Management Unit. Why must we protect the Little Sandy? It is a potential future source

of drinking water for the Portland area. It is also a critical habitat for endangered

fish species, including steelhead, cutthroat trout and chinook.

I am aware that some have raised concerns with this bill, and I would like to take

a moment to address those. Last year, during a hearing in the Senate, the U.S.

Forest Service testified that it stood in opposition to the legislation on the grounds

that adding additional protection for the Little Sandy was not warranted. They

claim the Northwest Forest Plan provides adequate protection for this important resource and to the federal lands within the Bull Run Management Unit. Yet as of

today, 37% of the Little Sandy Watershed has been lost to timber harvest, and much

of that was through damaging clearcut methods. Such practices can have a detrimental effect on water quality and water quantity, not to mention the fragile forest

ecosystem that, particularly in the Little Sandy, supports several species of endangered fish that are listed under the Endangered Species Act, as well as probably

countless smaller organisms that have never been surveyed. Under H.R. 427, we

will finally achieve a lasting, permanent, and meaningful protection for the Little

Sandy and all of the lands within Bull Run Management Unit.

Opponents also point to studies from the last decade which they claim dismiss the

option of the Little Sandy as a future potential drinking water source. I am fortunate to be joined today by Mike Rosenberger, chief administrator for the City of

Portland’s Bureau of Water Works. His testimony describes why it is critical that

the City maintain a full range of potential options for the future when it comes to

managing a sustainable, long-term vision for drinking water, not just in Portland,

but throughout the region. But I would also add that I think, given the challenges

of meeting future demand for a clean, reliable drinking water supply, and fulfilling

our Endangered Species Act requirements, local governments and their citizens deserve to have every possible tool at their disposal. By securing permanent protection

for the Little Sandy, H.R. 427 provides just such a tool.

This bill enjoys strong support from the City of Portland. As one who believes that

government at all levels must work together more effectively, I see this effort as a

model for that kind of cooperation. In addition, the bill is supported by local citizen

groups, and local, statewide, and national environmental organizations.

The abundant water supply of the Pacific Northwest has been a blessing, but it

is also a responsibility. Protecting it is an obligation that we must not evade.

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[Additional material submitted for the record by Mr. Blumenauer follows:]

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Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you, Mr. Blumenauer.

Mr. Rosenberger?

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL ROSENBERGER, ADMINISTRATOR,

BUREAU OF WATER WORKS, CITY OF PORTLAND, OREGON

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Thank you, Congressman Blumenauer.

Mr. Chair and members of the Subcommittee, I am Mike Rosenberger, Administrator of the Bureau of Water Works of the City of

Portland, Oregon. I also serve as president of the Association of

Metropolitan Water Agencies, an organization of public water utilities serving 110 million people in the United States.

The mission of the Portland Water Bureau includes water supply

and distribution, as well as being a leader on watershed protection

issues such as water quality, habitat, and species protection in the

Bull Run Management Unit. I am here on behalf of Commissioner

Sten today, who regrets his inability to attend due to pressing matters before the city council.

The Little Sandy Protection has been a very high priority for

Commissioner Sten and the rest of our city council. On behalf of

the citizens of Portland and the surrounding region, I thank you

for taking the time to conduct this important hearing so early in

the year. I would also like to thank our Oregon delegation, especially Congressman Blumenauer.

I am very pleased to be here today to lend Portland’s strongest

possible support to H.R. 427. The Bull Run Management Unit provides water to a quarter of Oregon’s population. Today we ask for

protection of the Little Sandy portion of the watershed so that all

of the lands in the Bull Run Management Unit can be managed together to meet our community’s water supply needs and support

recovery of threatened fisheries’ resources. The map attached to my

written testimony provides an overview of how the Little Sandy

Watershed relates to the larger picture.

It is important that we have our management agreement secured

by law so that we have the utmost certainty we need in order to

do proper planning for fish recovery and potential future water

supply. The law will not constitute a loss of privilege for any entity.

Instead, it will give land managers clear direction.

The protection provided by H.R. 427 insures consistency across

the entire Bull Run Management Unit. Land managers will manage this important watershed for both water supply and the threatened and endangered species, including salmon and steelhead. This

bill will help protect the quality and quantity of water supply because protected for us, provide cooler, higher-quality water, and a

more natural release of water through snow melt and local groundwater inflow.

This law will be one of the foundations of the City of Portland’s

major initiative to assist in the recovery of threatened and endangered salmon and steelhead in an area that is rapidly growing and

developing. The Sandy River basin, of which the lands and waters

of the Bull Run Management Unit are a part, represents some of

the best habitat in the entire lower Columbia River system.

Because Congress has consistently been willing to help, the Bull

Run Management Unit is the envy of water systems all over the

country. Few actions are seen as being so clearly beneficial in

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providing high-quality drinking water and supporting viable populations of fish and wildlife, as lands and waters protected from

development and unsupervised human access.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you again

for your time, consideration and leadership. I look forward to working with you toward the goals we share and would be pleased to

answer questions.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Rosenberger follows:]

NOTE: Responses to questions submitted to Mr. Rosenberger for

the record were not available at the time of printing. Copies will

be retained in the Committee’s official files.

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Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you.

Ms. Collins?

STATEMENT OF SALLY COLLINS, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF,

NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM, USDA FOREST SERVICE

Ms. COLLINS. I am delighted to be on a panel with fellow Oregonians. I have been hearing about this from the other side of the

mountains for kind of a long time. And again we support the intentions and interests that have been discussed here, and feel like

there is a huge opportunity for us to resolve any differences.

I just think there are a few things that we need to consider as

we look at this bill. Again, if enacted, H.R. 427 would add approximately 2,900 acres of Federal land in the Little Sandy Watershed

to the Bull Run Watershed Unit. Currently the Bull Run Watershed Unit has 95,000 acres of National Forest System land near

Portland, and in addition, what this would do is it would prohibit

timber harvest activities and general public access to the entire

Bull Run Watershed Management Unit. Now, right now the public

can’t access the Bull Run Management Unit. As you know, most

watersheds, commercial watersheds, don’t allow people in there for

protecting the water, but right now, the Little Sandy area within

the Bull Run Watershed Unit is available for public access, and

there are people that use it for that purpose.

In addition, forest-related restoration, forest management activities would be precluded from a total of 8,600 acres of National

Forest and BLM land that would be included in this buffer area,

and the concern there would be, and what needs to be acknowledged or recognized is that the actions we could take as a management agency to reduce fire hazards to the watershed may not be

possible with this bill, and may not be warranted.

The Administration really believes that the existing forest plans,

including the Northwest Forest Plan, provide protection for the

health of the Little Sandy Watershed and the preservation of

future options, and specifically the Little Sandy Watershed is designated as a Tier 2 Watershed. I had managed under this Northwest Forest Plan when I was in Oregon, and can assure you that

that provides high water quality as well as fish and watershed protection and restoration opportunities.

Let me just talk a little bit about the opportunity for this to be

part of the water system in Portland. First of all, the point of diversion where Portland draws its water from the Bull Run Watershed

is upstream from the confluence of the Little Sandy River. A water

supply option study conducted by the City of Portland in 1992 dismissed the option of developing Little Sandy as a municipal water

source. Because of issues related to water rights—there are no

water rights right now that they have to that—cost of development,

limited capacity and the impacts to a variety of resources. In addition to that a regional water supply plan was completed in 1996

by 27 water providers that also dismissed the option of Little

Sandy Basin as a water supply source at that time. But it can advocate a protection—

Mr. MCINNIS. Ms. Collins, may I interrupt you for just a second?

Ms. COLLINS. Sure.

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Mr. MCINNIS. I am just trying to get a picture of what you are

saying. Are you telling me that the diversion to Portland is not

within the watershed, it is upstream from the watershed?

Ms. COLLINS. It is the—right. It is upstream from the confluence

of the Bull Run Watershed. So anything that we do in this area,

in other words, would not have an impact on the water qualify in

Portland.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you.

Ms. COLLINS. Does that make sense? It is not part of the water

quality—the water that goes into the water system in Portland

right now.

Mr. BLUMENAUER. And the point I was making, Mr. Chairman,

is that is not where the region is now. We are looking at this as

a potential water source for the region, and we—the region—and

Mr. Rosenberger can go on in greater detail in terms of where we

were 10 years ago, and looking at other options, this is very definitely a part of what the region is looking at, and the City of Portland, to try and provide water for a large and growing metropolitan

area, where water is in fact in short supply, and dealing with our

strategies for restoration of habitat. There have been a lot of

changes that have taken place in the course of the last 10 years.

Mr. MCINNIS. Well, Congressman, I just don’t— Mr. BLUMENAUER. And we will be happy to detail those as you

see fit.

Mr. MCINNIS. I just have some reluctance in seeing a municipality reach outside the point of diversion for additional control

over possible water into the future. My understanding, you have no

water rights in that area. This is from the testimony, and I stand

corrected if you correct me, and that there are no water rights for

you to access in the area.

Ms. Collins, by the way, I will come back to you to finish your

statement. I didn’t mean to interrupt, but this is a very critical

point, because I assume from the testimony of Mr. Rosenberger,

even the Congressman, that we are talking about the watershed of

Portland, Oregon. And now that we are not, this has lost a lot of

credence with me. I just am confused.

Go ahead, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Congressman, let me see if I can take a shot

at this. We are talking about the Bull Run Management Unit, the

entire Bull Run Management Unit, and Congressman Blumenauer

talked about some of the history of that. Within the Bull Run Management Unit there is the Little Sandy Watershed and 22,000,

25,000 acres. The rest of the Bull Run Management Unit is the

Bull Run Management Unit, and is managed under the auspices of

ORCA, Oregon Resource Conservation Act. The Little Sandy

Watershed portion of the Bull Run drainage is managed under the

auspices of the Northwest Forest Plan. Part of our concern is that

those are two different directions to land managers. And one of the

main things of this bill is to have the entire Bull Run drainage

managed under one set of rules, a consistent set of rules to that

the Forest Service and the city, which as a matter of fact are working better together now than they have for years, have one set of

standards to deal with water quality, water quantity, and the

issues of endangered species.

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Mr. MCINNIS. Mr. Rosenberger, in doing that, one, it is an area

that you don’t need today, as I understand the testimony. It is an

area that it is—you hope by some, frankly, some wave of the magic

wand, that you access water rights sometime in the future that as

I understand aren’t available today, you are going to limit public

access, which the Forest Service has testified there is public utilization of this area right now, and more importantly than anything

we have heard, is you are going to limit the Forest Service’s capability to help manage that area for forest fires.

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Congressman, maybe I could speak to both of

those.

Mr. MCINNIS. Let me do this. In all fairness, Mr. Rosenberger,

I interrupted Ms. Collins, and I am now detracting from her time

and her statement. Why don’t I let her finish, and then we will

come back to you and we will proceed with this discussion.

I am sorry, Ms. Collins, you may proceed.

Ms. COLLINS. I just had a couple more things I wanted to say.

In addition, I was going through a couple of these studies that had

been done. An additional study by the Forest Service in 1988, along

with our provincial advisory committee that we have, an advisory

committee of interested parties, we completed a study and submitted it to Congress at that time, which recommended that the

area be managed under the Northwest Plan, which is all of those

restrictions that I talked about, and cited two reasons. One, that

the Little Sandy River has not been and currently is not planned

to be used to provide drinking water. But second, that the waters

of the Little Sandy River may be needed to provide for the needs

of fish species being considered for listing under the Endangered

Species Act. And since that time, both the Chinook salmon and the

winter steelhead in the Sandy River Basin have been listed under

ESA.

I guess the main point here is that there are many environment

safeguards in place for the Little Sandy River, as well as other sensitive watersheds in the Pacific Northwest, and we are interested

in discussing the concepts in the bill with the Committee to see if

there is some common ground that we can’t come to within existing

authorities, and looking forward to doing that. Thanks.

Mr. MCINNIS. Well, Ms. Collins, let me then ask you—because I

am still confused, so you have got to help me.

Ms. COLLINS. Okay.

Mr. MCINNIS. If we proceeded with the Congressman’s request,

what restrictions does it put on you under your current management philosophy or what you are currently managing?

Ms. COLLINS. Okay. If you can picture this 95,000 acres that is

in the Bull Run Watershed, a portion of that, about, I don’t know,

20 some thousand acres is included in this Little Sandy portion of

that, and we would be adding 2,900. In that, we already—a portion

of that watershed allows public access and allows some restoration

activities, including timber harvest, which we have not done since

1992 and have no plans to do, but would like to have the option

to do some restoration for fuels reduction. That is a potential. We

have no plans, again, to do that. But it is a mechanism that will

protect the watershed that we would like to keep intact if possible.

So that is one.

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And then the other one, and I really do commend—people are

talking a lot, and I talked to Gary Larson, the Forest supervisor,

last night, who has been working closely with you. And I think that

we all have an understanding of this, but there are people that do

use that for more primitive recreation opportunities since the rest

of the watershed is not open, and this portion would be—remain

open.

Mr. MCINNIS. Ms. Collins, let me ask you the following question,

then I will go to my colleagues who are anxious to join the discussion.

Ms. COLLINS. Okay.

Mr. MCINNIS. But if we put this bill into place, what protections,

outside of limitation of public access, what other protections would

they need that you don’t already provide in your current management of that area? What is to be gained by what they want to do

other than perhaps stop public access?

Ms. COLLINS. Well, that is why, I think, when listening to the

testimony, there is a huge opportunity for us to work together to

meet our common interests, because currently with—and I am not

sure when these discussions started, if they came before the Northwest Forest Plan or not, but with the protections in the Northwest

Forest Plan for this particular kind of watershed, there is a great

deal of resource protection for water quality as well as wildlife

habitat.

Mr. MCINNIS. That currently exist?

Ms. COLLINS. Currently exist, yes, very high level.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. Ms. McCollum?

Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To the Congressman, could you tell me if there is any opposition

from some of the other units of Government that would be in the

Watershed? I don’t know how you are exactly organized.

Mr. BLUMENAUER. To the best of my knowledge, the counties and

cities that are affected, the county in which it resides and the

others in the area, are united in support of this. Number one, this

is an area that is in transition. I strongly disagree with the notion

that—the Chairman’s point that we do not have access to the

water. Just speaking to the Chairman’s point about water rights,

we will be happy to provide you with information.

First of all, there are two dams that are being removed that were

part of a private utility, as part of the restoration, and whether we

think there is a claim for this municipality itself, there was a much

larger area that has been involved historically. We will provide you

with that documentation, Mr. Chairman. We think that there is a

claim already.

It is also an area where there is serious evolution in the last 10

years in terms of trying to have species restoration. The Forest

Service has been evolving over time with its attitude regarding

this. This has been an area of fierce contention for the last 25 years

that I have been involved in Federal Government and local activities. And I do agree with Ms. Collins’ point in terms of it being an

evolution. But I do think there is a strong case to be made, and

the overwhelming public support is in support of this additional

protection, and it has bipartisan support of both our senators, and

as I say, our delegation.

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Ms. MCCOLLUM. And so from what I am hearing from the Forest

Service, I heard you say, ‘‘We have no plans, we have no plans, we

have no plans’’ on many different issues. But I am hearing from

the Congressman and from the person representing the water

works area, that the City of Portland, working with the region, you

are planning for the future so that a crisis does not come about.

Did I hear that correctly, gentlemen?

Mr. BLUMENAUER. Yes. And this is not water just for the City of

Portland. This is water that is provided to a quarter of the state’s

population, and goes—in fact, they are looking at regionalizing it

beyond the 800,000 people that currently use water from this Bull

Run Watershed, and looking for a cooperative effort that spreads

it throughout the metropolitan area.

Ms. MCCOLLUM. And so you need one person to take the lead on

it, one organization, one group to move forward, working with the

other units, and Portland has taken the lead?

Mr. BLUMENAUER. And to have the highest level of protection,

certainty and management, not differential levels. I mean, there

are some good things, but it is not the best. This is one of two

major unfiltered water systems in the United States—I think the

only other one is in New York—that because of the purity of it,

that has been able to be maintained. So people in both parties, private sector, public sector, are incredibly concerned about this, to be

able to maintain the quality and the supply. And if there are details regarding management of the—it is not just 2,800 acres for

forest fire protection. The City of Portland has an even higher area

of concern for tens of thousands of acres, 65,000, that is in the Bull

Run. So this is an ongoing discussion, and it is an area where the

Forest Service has made a great deal of change in time, and I appreciate the evolution that they have taken, where they have

learned that actually the local people had some pretty good concerns and issues, and they have modified their positions over time,

and we appreciate that, and we think we ought to continue the discussions about fire protection, because that is something that is not

just 2,800 acres. If we have problems in this watershed, it affects

water for 800,000 people, maybe a million people or more, and it

is more than just 2,800 acres.

Mr. MCINNIS. Thank you. Mr. Simpson.

Mr. SIMPSON. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I really don’t have any

questions, other than, as I understand it, this area that is managed

by the Forest Service, is what you call Tier 2 protection, right?

Ms. COLLINS. I am sorry?

Mr. SIMPSON. It is a Tier 2 level, you mentioned in your testimony?

Ms. COLLINS. Yes, yes. It is a Tier 2 level watershed, which

means it has got extra levels of protection in terms of buffering

streams and that sort of thing for management activities.

Mr. SIMPSON. And as I understand it from the testimony, really,

the only two things that we are really talking about that are different, other than bringing it under single management, would be

access and potential harvest or fuels reductions, those types of

things, timber management activities that might occur?

Ms. COLLINS. I would add one more. And that is the point that

I think was made by the last study that was given to Congress,

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and that is the concern that the water that is there, which is fairly

limited in supply and quantity anyway, may be needed in terms of

protecting these species that are listed under ESA.

Mr. SIMPSON. Okay.

Ms. COLLINS. That is the third point.

Mr. SIMPSON. I will tell you—and Congressman Blumenauer

mentioned it just a minute ago—but if you have got 95,000 acres

already under this watershed that you don’t have a fire protection

plan for, I would get on it right away, because I can tell you what

forest fires have done to watershed quality in Idaho and other

places, and the damage that has been created by forest fires. And

if you don’t do something about having a fuels reduction program

in that area and in this other area, eventually lightning is going

to strike there too.

Mr. BLUMENAUER. We have had it for 109 years, Congressman.

There is an aggressive program. And in the other 95,000 acres,

there is a higher level of protection, not the Tier 2, Congress has

provided for it. And that is what we want, is the higher level of

protection.

Mr. SIMPSON. Of forest fire protection?

Mr. BLUMENAUER. Of water quality overall.

Mr. SIMPSON. Does that include—in the 95,000 acres that you

are talking about—and I cannot remember the names—but do you

go in and thin forests out there, and reduce fuel loads and that

type of thing, or does any activity occur in that area?

Mr. ROSENBERGER. The City of Portland and the Forest Service

do have a forest fuels management program, as well as a forest

fire—you know, or a lightning strike, a way of fighting fires.

One of the things that I would like to clarify, if I can back up

just a second, is that the Bull Run Management Unit is mostly

owned by the Federal Government and it is managed by the Forest

Service, okay, in conjunction with Portland, you know, for the Bull

Run Management portion, so it is under single management. The

issue here is that two-thirds or so is managed under the provisions

of ORCA, and the other one-third of so, mostly the Little Sandy

Watershed, is managed under the auspices of a Tier 2 forest under

the Northwest Forest Plan.

So one of the things that we want to get out of this is a consistent approach to the entire drainage. That is one of our objectives.

If I can go over to the side of something else here just for a second, just to sort of say where things are, because one of the issues

of the Forest Service is the fact that six years ago or five years ago,

in 1996, the results of a regional water supply plan said that the

Little Sandy was down the list of priorities and would not be the

most reasonable thing to develop for a water supply for the metropolitan area. And that was in relationship to some of the other

sources in the local area that seem to be more viable.

Well, viability can be ephemeral. Five years later, one of the

highly-touted water sources is questionable in the community relative to source water quality and community acceptance. ESA

issues arise on some of the other more highly-rated potential

sources that came out of the study. So these things kind of move

around, and it seems like it is prudent to protect, to the highest

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degree possible, a potential water source like the Little Sandy, to

be protected as a potential drinking water supply, even at the same

time as the expectation is that it is part of the comprehensive approach to address ESA issues in conjunction with the management

of the Bull Run at the same time as we meet the water supply

needs of the metropolitan community.

Mr. SIMPSON. Then the only increased protection that you are

really talking about is access by people, isn’t it? I mean, you said

you had a forest management plan and a fire plan in the other

area, working with the Forest Service and the City of Portland and

so forth, so really what you are talking about is just people access?

Mr. ROSENBERGER. We are talking about people access as well as

not harvesting timber, as in the rest of the Bull Run Management

Unit under ORCA, so that it is consistent with that level of protection.

Mr. SIMPSON. And if they have no plans to harvest timber, then

really we are just talking about—I mean, if they did not harvest

timber, then it is just access?

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Well, Congressman, I think that what I

would say is what you end up, when you put this in law, is you

have certainty. It was 1992, I think, the last time that there was

timber harvest in the Little Sandy Basin and that watershed. That

is nine years ago. We have been using that basin for 109 years. We

are planning for the next 109 years. And so what happened in the

last nine may not be the best precursor of the future. So from our

standpoint, if we can get certainty, if we can get something in the

law, we have a much better foundation on which to make our strategic planning.

Mr. SIMPSON. Have you done active fuels reduction in the Bull

Run area?

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Congressman, how active that is and how detailed it is is not something—I do not know the answer to that. I

cannot describe that. I can provide that to you. Would that be helpful?

Mr. SIMPSON. Yes, it would.

Mr. ROSENBERGER. Okay.

Mr. SIMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROSENBERGER. That goes beyond my technical ken.

Mr. MCINNIS. I thank the panel, and I also thank the Committee.

As the Committee knows, if you have any further questions, you

can ask the witness. We will hold the record open for 10 days for

additional testimony.

The panel is excused and the Committee is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 4:37 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

[Additional material supplied for the record follows:]

1. Letter submitted for the record by Denise Boggs, Executive

Director, Utah Environmental Congress, on H.R. 451;

2. Letter submitted for the record by Frank Gearhart, President,

Citizens Interested in Bull Run, Inc., on H.R. 427; and

3. Letter submitted for the record by Ivan Maluski, American

Lands Alliance, et al., on H.R. 427.

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