1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on the

7 Proposed Clean Power Plans for 

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:02 to 7:01 p.m.

13 Tuesday, July 29, 2014

14

15

16

17 ROOM B

18 EPA Region 8 Building

19 1595 Wynkoop Street

20 Denver, Colorado 80202

21

22

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1 EPA Panel A:

2 ELAYANA SUTIN

3

4 LAURA FERRIS

5

6 DENISE MULHOLLAND, Office of Atmospheric 

7 Programs, Washington, D.C. 

8

9 EPA Panel B:

10 CARL DAILY, Director of the Air Program 

11 EPA Region 8, Denver, Colorado 

12 AMANDA CURRYBROWN

13 RYAN SIMMS

14

15 EPA Panel C:

16 ELAYANA SUTIN

17 DENISE MULHOLLAND, Office of Atmospheric 

18 Programs, Washington, D.C.

19 DIERDRA ROTHERY, Air Program, Region 8, Colorado

20

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22

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 ELIAS BURGOS, Colorado Resident 5

4 CRAIG WILLIAMS, Environment Colorado 21

5 BRUCE FERGUSON, Catskill Citizens for Safe

6 Energy 23

7 DAVE BUFALO, Colorado Resident 28

8 ROBERT JONES, Sierra Club 32

9 JEFF BERGMAN, OPlata Electric 37

10 BILL DVORAK, Colorado Resident 41

11 BRIAN DEPEW, Center for Rural Affairs 46

12 MILDRED GRIFFIN, Colorado Resident 51

13 ROBERT HARVEY, Colorado Resident 52

14 JOHNNY BEAR CUB STIFFARM, Tribal Member 57

15 NELSON BOCK, Colorado Resident 62

16 BRANDON CHESHIRE, Center of the Solar, Arizona 66

17 NANCY LAPLACCA, Colorado Resident 72

18 SEAN LAMB, Colorado Resident 77

19 ANNA GIOVINETTO, Renewable Energy Systems 80

20 JOHN SHULTZABARGER, EDF Renewable Energy 85

21 ALAN APT, Colorado Resident 90

22 FRANK SWAYNE, Conservation Colorado 96

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 RYAN VAN WEST, Western Colorado Congress 100

4 JULIE MOIL, Nurse 105

5 KIERRA HATIN, Colorado Resident 110

6 JASON SMALL, Boilermakers Local 11 113

7 CHRIS FLANNIGAN, Renew Missouri 119

8 SARAH PROBST, Interless 123

9 DEB THERIAULT, Wyoming Resident 128

10 MICHAEL BOWMAN, Colorado Resident 131

11 MARK BROWN, President of Board of EEBC 135

12 SHANON ANDERSON, Powder River Basin Council 139

13 MARY FRONTCZAK, Peabody Energy 142

14 WES WILSON, Colorado Resident 148

15 TIM GAUDETTE, Small Business Majority 152

16 CHRISTINA GOSNELL, Clean Energy Action 158

17 MARINA WEBBER, Colorado Resident 162

18 CHILDREN SING A SONG, Colorado Resident 163

19 LAURIE DAMERON, Colorado Resident 164

20 KEN CONNELL, Colorado Resident 168

21 RHONDA LOPEZ, Colorado Resident 173

22 EDWARD LEAVER, Colorado Resident 177

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 CYNTHIA LINTON, Chicago, Illinois 181

4 BARBARA HILDEBRAND, Colorado Resident 184

5 MILLICENT YOUNG, Colorado Resident 187

6 MAXWELL BOYKOFF, University of Colorado Prof. 190

7 SESSION B

8 CARL DAILY, EPA 195

9 DAWN HENDRY, Beekeeper 201

10 LEE RAYBURN, Colorado Resident 203

11 HUNTER LOVINS, National Capitalism Solutions 207

12 CYNTHIA SCHMIDT, Colorado Resident 211

13 PHILLIP WARD, Student, Regis University 215

14 DAVID MARTEN JUSTICE, Colorado Resident 219

15 NICK KERWIN, Co-owner Solar Company 225

16 STACEY TELLINGHUISEN, Western Resource Advoc. 227

17 LARRY GRIM, Presbyterian Minister 233

18 LIBBY CHOMEO, Loreto Wrok Network 236

19 JACKIE PATTERSON, Colorado Resident 242

20 HARV TEITELBAUM, Colorado Resident 248

21 CHRIS HOFFMAN, Colorado Resident 252

22 JOHN GALE, Colorado Resident 256

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION B (continued)

4 DR. ROBERT MOSS, Lutheran Advocacy Ministry 260

5 PETE MAYSMITH, Conservation Colorado 264

6 REBECCA CANTWELL, COSEA 269

7 THOMAS PIERCE, Sierra Club 274

8 KIM TURRELL, American Lung Association, CO 279

9 ELISE JONES, Boulder County Commissioner 283

10 KURT HUBER, Exec. Director. Am Lung Assn 288

11 DEX SLOAN, Arch Coal, Inc. 290

12 ELIZABETH HOUSE, Citizens Climate Lobby 295

13 CHRIS STANLEY, American Lung Assn, CO 299

14 GERARD BROWN, Colorado Resident 301

15 LUCINDA SCHNELLER, Moms Knows Best, CO 304

16 DEBRA SHANAMAN, Platt River Power Authority 308

17 TERESA PATERRY, Colorado Resident 313

18 IVOR DOUGLAS, American Thoracic Society 317

19 REBECCA COHEN, Colorado Resident 322

20 TAYLOR SMITH, Houston, Texas 325

21 ALYSSA EVANS, Colorado Resident 329

22 KATRINA KELLER, Colorado Resident 331

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION B (continued)

4 AMY KESSLER, Colorado Resident 333

5 ASHLEY EDINGER, Colorado Resident 335

6 DOM HERRERA, Colorado Resident 339

7 NICK STOOBLER, Colorado Resident 341

8 RACHEL GARFINKLE, Colorado Resident 345

9 KYLE CORONADO, Colorado Resident 348

10 SARAH BLANCHFIELD, Colorado Resident 350

11 SESSION C

12 NATASHA LANNERD, Colorado Resident 356

13 MATTHEW FLOERKE, Colorado Resident 368

14 ANITA HARTMAN, Colorado Resident 372

15 SUSAN JACOBSON, Colorado Resident 375

16 PADDY McCLELLAND, Colorado Resident 380

17 RONALD LARSON, Colorado Resident 384

18 LOLA WILCOX, Colorado Resident 387

19 DUSTIN CHAVEZ-DAVIS, Sierra Club 391

20 ISAAC RIVERA, Colorado Resident 395

21 SUSAN PERMUT, Colorado Resident 400

22 MITTY APONTAE, Colorado Resident 402

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 SESSION C (continued)

4 CHRIS APPLEGATE, Colorado Resident 402

5 JAMES CODY, Colorado Resident 409

6 WILLIAM OWENS, Colorado Resident 413

7 ANGELA STEPHENS, Colorado Moms Knows Best 418

8 MEGAN COWLEY, Colorado Resident 421

9 SPENCER CARNES, Colorado Resident 425

10 FABIAN LAGUNA, Colorado Resident 428

11 LESLIE GLUSTROM, Colorado Resident 432

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. VIDADICH: Good morning, my name is 

3 Cally Vidadich. I'm the acting assistant 

4 regional administrator here in Region 8 and I'm 

5 here to welcome you to the public hearing on the 

6 Clean Power Plan Proposal. 

7 Before we put pen to paper on our clean 

8 power plan proposal we benefitted from 

9 unprecedented outreach. We held 11 public 

10 listening sessions nationwide including one here 

11 in Denver. We heard from thousands of people 

12 through phone calls, e-mails, meetings and more.

13 What we heard helped shape the guiding 

14 principals of our proposal. We heard that 

15 flexibility is key. So we maximized choices for 

16 states that they could make decisions for 

17 themselves. We heard that states could cut 

18 pollution costs effectively by looking at the 

19 energy system as a whole, so we built that in. 

20 We heard that the power sector is 

21 interconnected and not bound by state lines. So 

22 we allowed states to work together or go it 

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1 alone; whatever works best for them.

2 The public comment period is incredibly 

3 valuable to us. Since June 2nd we've been laser 

4 focused on our second phase of engagement. We've 

5 met with 60 different groups in just the first 25 

6 business days after the proposal came out. 

7 We've received more than 300,000 comments so far 

8 and expect many more.

9 We want no stone unturned and no good 

10 idea off the table. That's why we're so excited 

11 today to kick off this public hearing of which 

12 this is one of four occurring this week across 

13 the nation. The other three are in Washington, 

14 Atlanta, and Pittsburgh. 

15 We expect great feedback at these 

16 sessions. They're critical to an opportunity for 

17 public people -- for people to speak to the 

18 government directly. But let me also make clear 

19 any comment we receive before October 16th, no 

20 matter how we get it will be equally accepted and 

21 analyzed, not just the things that we hear over 

22 the next two days here.

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1 There are no special comments or special 

2 groups. We look at everything carefully and EPA 

3 does the work to shape that -- with the 

4 information we get we'll shape that into a rule 

5 that we can all be proud of.

6 We know the purpose of this rule couldn't 

7 be more important. That's why we're putting so 

8 much importance on process in the comments we're 

9 getting here and going -- and we believe that 

10 they're going to help us get the rule right. 

11 So, welcome everyone today. Elayana 

12 Sutin, who is the chair for this particular 

13 public hearing -- we have another one going on 

14 across the hall -- has some comments to make as 

15 the chair. 

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Cally. 

17 Good morning, everyone. My name is 

18 Elayana Sutin as Cally mentioned, and I am a 

19 chair of today's public hearing. Thank you for 

20 coming today.

21 Joining me on the panel today are Denise 

22 Mulholland from our Office of Atmospheric 

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1 Programs in Washington, and Laura Farris who is 

2 from our Air Program here in Region 8. 

3 We are here today to listen to your 

4 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

5 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

6 of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014.

7 Power plants are the largest source of 

8 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

9 for roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse 

10 emissions.

11 The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 

12 power plan for existing power plants. This 

13 proposal consists of two main parts, state14 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

15 power plants and guidelines to help states 

16 develop their plans for meeting their goals.

17 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

18 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

19 choose what goes into their plans and show how 

20 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

21 their goals by 2030.

22 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

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1 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

2 and reconstructed power plants. This rule will 

3 set emission limits for two groups of power 

4 plants, those that make physical or operational 

5 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

6 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

7 that replace components to such an extent that 

8 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

9 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

10 facility. 

11 If you would like more detail on either 

12 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

13 available near the registration desk.

14 Today's hearing is one of four public 

15 hearings across the country this week on the two 

16 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

17 in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 

18 you for taking time out of your day to join us 

19 and share your comments.

20 We have a lot of people signed up to 

21 speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 

22 So before we get started I would like to go 

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1 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

2 that will help make today's hearing run smoothly.

3 First, please be sure you have checked in 

4 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

5 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

6 speak online or by phone and haven't told us that 

7 you're here, please step out to the registration 

8 desk and let the EPA staff there know that you've 

9 arrived. 

10 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

11 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

12 or Room B. This is Room B. Are you in the right 

13 room? If not, this is a good time to switch.

14 If you are not speaking this morning and 

15 the room is getting crowded, we have two 

16 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

17 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

18 desk will direct you to one of those rooms.

19 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

20 will work. I will call speakers up in pairs, 

21 when your name is called, please come to the 

22 podiums at the front of the room and have a seat. 

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1 When I call you to speak, please state your name, 

2 and spell it for the court reporter.

3 Your comments will be transcribed and 

4 included in the record of comments on the 

5 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

6 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

7 help you know how much time you have left to 

8 speak. When the light turns from green to 

9 yellow, that means you have one minute remaining. 

10 When it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up 

11 your testimony. The light will flash red and 

12 beep when you have spoken for five minutes and 

13 it's time to stop. 

14 When you are finished speaking, please 

15 remain at the podium until the person next to you 

16 has completed his or her testimony. 

17 We are here to listen to you today. 

18 However a panel member may be asking clarifying 

19 questions on your comments. 

20 I will then call up the next pair of 

21 speakers and so on. 

22 If you have brought a written copy of 

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1 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

2 the registration desk before you leave today.

3 Because of the large number of people who 

4 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

5 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

6 enforce this five-minute limit.

7 If you have additional comments you would 

8 like to make, you can submit them in writing.

9 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

10 much consideration to comments we receive in 

11 writing as we do to comments we receive a public 

12 hearings like this one. 

13 So if you have more than you would like 

14 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

15 received. 

16 There is still plenty of time to get 

17 written comments in and there are comment cards 

18 available at the registration desk. Comments 

19 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

20 put any written comments submitted today into the 

21 official docket for the proposed rule. 

22 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

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1 other ways are available at the materials desk, 

2 the registration desk.

3 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

4 tonight. We will take short breaks throughout 

5 the day as needed. If you have questions during 

6 the day, please see the staff at the registration 

7 desk and someone will try and help you. 

8 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

9 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

10 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

11 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

12 all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 

13 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 

14 even applause can slow things down and we want to 

15 hear from everyone who is signed up to speak. In 

16 the spirit of good manners and good democracy, we 

17 ask that everyone is respectful. 

18 We are here to listen to each other even 

19 those we disagree with.

20 Thank you, again, for taking the time 

21 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

22 rule. We'll get started. Thanks.

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1 SESSION A

2 MS. SUTIN: All right. Our first two 

3 speaker, Elias Burgos and Craig Williams.

4 Okay. If you will both stand, and Mr. 

5 Burgos if you would like to go first.

6 MR. BURGOS: Good morning. I'm Dr. Elias 

7 Burgos, E-l-i-a-s B-u-r-g-o-s. I am faculty at 

8 Bridges University, I'm also member of the 

9 Angelica Lutheran Church in America and a part of 

10 the Creation Care Ministries. But I am here as a 

11 citizen of Denver and a citizen of Colorado. And 

12 I'm here to say that we have the moral obligation 

13 to protect our children and future generations 

14 from the impacts of climate change by addressing 

15 the single largest source of carbon pollution in 

16 our country, power plants. Drawing on the 

17 strength and ingenuity of American innovation the 

18 EPA's green power plant helps drive investment in 

19 energy efficiency and clean energy that would 

20 power the 21st century.

21 The clean power plant means we will never 

22 have to choose between healthy communities and a 

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1 healthy economy. America will benefit from 

2 energy innovation with lowered energy cost, more 

3 diversified and safer energy supplies and cleaner 

4 energy.

5 This energy innovation will build new 

6 companies, create jobs, and produce clean energy. 

7 The climate plan is an ambitious plan that would 

8 cut current pollution by 30 percent from our 

9 power plants, fighting climate change, and 

10 benefitting public health. 

11 The EPA rule on power plants allows 

12 states the flexibility to create their own best 

13 plan of action.

14 Fossil fuel companies will have to pay 

15 for their pollution. But now we have a market16 based approach to develop the most effective and 

17 efficient technology to reduce carbon pollution. 

18 Every year our nation's power plants are 

19 responsible for nearly 45 percent of carbon 

20 pollution in the United States which fuel climate 

21 change, trigger more asthma attacks and 

22 respiratory disease, worsens air quality and 

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1 contribute to more frequent, more destructive, 

2 more costly, and more deadly extreme weather 

3 events.

4 We already limit our soot and all the 

5 dangerous pollutants, but until now power plants 

6 have been free to dump unlimited amounts of 

7 carbon pollution into the air. The EPA's clean 

8 power plan close the loophole and represent a 

9 massive victory for every American feeling the 

10 impacts of climate change and breathing dirty 

11 air.

12 So we are here to ask you to get energy 

13 from above, not all the above. We have a choice, 

14 innovation or pollution. The risk to our 

15 climate, our health and our economy is too great 

16 to take immediate steps that will protect us now 

17 and in the future. We have a moral 

18 responsibility to address global warming now and 

19 the effects of these power plants. If we do 

20 nothing today, our children will be worse off.

21 We ask you to help us to protect the 

22 creation and humanity one kilowatt at a time. We 

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1 ask you to make your own contribution to help 

2 creation and humanity estate and make polluters 

3 pay. Please respond with energy, clean up 

4 energy. Our community needs not just any energy, 

5 we need just energy.

6 Thank you very much. 

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Burgos.

8 Mr. Williams.

9 MR. WILLIAMS: Good morning. My name is 

10 Craig Williams, C-r-a-i-g, W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s. I'm 

11 with Environment Colorado.

12 I've been an environmentalist for over 25 

13 years and have enjoyed the benefits of EPA 

14 regulations like the Clean Water Act, the Clean 

15 Air Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act. However, 

16 my resolve was strengthened in December of 2006 

17 when my son was born. 

18 I am an avid reader and follower of the 

19 IPCC climate assessments and the national climate 

20 assessments. These warn of more dangerous 

21 conditions to include increased wild fires, 

22 severe drought, and reduced water availability. 

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1 And these affects are directly related to the 

2 amount of greenhouse gases, like carbon dioxide 

3 that we release into the atmosphere unchecked. 

4 It is time for EPA to follow through on the power 

5 it has to regulate this dangerous pollutant, 

6 powers that have been upheld by two Supreme Court 

7 rulings. I encourage EPA to move forward with 

8 haste on the Clean Power Plan to start the 

9 healing process for out climate and to jump start 

10 a clean energy economy that is certain to create 

11 sustainable jobs and to help secure our nation.

12 Thank you. 

13 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Williams.

14 You can both be seated. 

15 All right. If I can have the next four 

16 speakers come and sit, that would be helpful. 

17 Bruce Ferguson, Dave Bufalo, Robert Jones, and 

18 Jeff Berman. 

19 PARTICIPANT: Madam Chairman.

20 MS. SUTIN: Yes.

21 PARTICIPANT: Your light is turned away 

22 and speakers can't see it.

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1 MS. SUTIN: I'm sorry?

2 PARTICIPANT: The light should be turned 

3 sideways so speakers can see it also.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

5 Okay. If I can have Bruce Ferguson and 

6 Dave Bufalo please stand at the podium.

7 Mr. Ferguson, go ahead. 

8 MR. FERGUSON: Thank you. My name is 

9 Bruce Ferguson, B-r-u-c-e, Ferguson, F-e-r-g-u-s10 o-n. Thank you.

11 I'm grateful the EPA is willing to use 

12 its established regulatory authority to curb 

13 harmful emissions at a time when it's clear 

14 Congress lacks the will to do this. I represent 

15 Catskill Citizens for Safe Energy, an all16 volunteer, grassroots organization with 14,000 

17 members in New York State and around the country.

18 My community organized in 2008 in 

19 opposition to high-volume fracking because it was 

20 apparent that this inherently dangerous 

21 industrial process posed a threat to our drinking 

22 water, our health, and our community character.

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1 Today it's clear that fracking is not 

2 only a local issue, it's an international one. 

3 Because the extraction processing and 

4 transmission of shale gas releases so much heat 

5 trapping methane into the atmosphere that if 

6 fracking goes untracked, it will be impossible to 

7 avoid the devastating impacts of climate change.

8 I appreciate EPA's willingness to to 

9 address power plant emissions, but I believe the 

10 method selected to measure them is deeply flawed. 

11 If the rule is implemented as written, it could 

12 produce a result that is, in one important way, 

13 the exact opposite of what is intended. Instead 

14 of curtailing total greenhouse gas emissions, it 

15 may actually increase them and exacerbate climate 

16 change.

17 The problem with the rule is twofold. 

18 First it addresses only smoke stack emissions, 

19 not all emissions produced by fossil fuels 

20 consumed by power plants. 

21 Second, it addresses only carbon dioxide, 

22 not all greenhouse gases. 

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1 It might make sense to focus only on 

2 smokestack emissions of carbon dioxide if all 

3 fossil fuels have the same pattern of greenhouse 

4 gas emissions, but that is simply not the case. 

5 Coal releases large quantities of carbon 

6 dioxide into the atmosphere when it is burned, 

7 and these emissions would be regulated by the 

8 rule. 

9 On the other hand, natural gas, 

10 particularly shale gas, extracted by fracking 

11 releases large quantities of methane during 

12 extraction, processing, and transmission. And 

13 these lifecycle missions are not measured and 

14 will go unregulated. 

15 Pound for pound methane traps 86 times 

16 more heat that carbon dioxide when it is released 

17 into the atmosphere. And the volume of the so18 called "fugitive emissions" is so great that many 

19 scientists have concluded that the greenhouse gas 

20 footprint of shale gas is actually greater than 

21 that of coal over a 20-year timeframe. 

22 Robert Howers, et al, reached this 

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1 conclusion in 2011 and it's been supported by a 

2 number of more recent studies, yet it is utterly 

3 ignored by EPA rule. 

4 A related problem is that EPA only

5 considers the global warming potential of methane 

6 over the 100-year timeframe rather than over the 

7 20 -- the critical 20-year timeframe when we must 

8 act to avoid the dire impacts of climate change.

9 The problem with looking at the 100-year 

10 time period instead of the 20-year time period 

11 was summed up in an article by Joe Ron aptly 

12 titled, "By the Time Natural Gas has a Net 

13 Climate Benefit, You Will Likely Be Dead and the 

14 Climate Ruined." Despite these major defects, 

15 it's been suggested that the proposed rule is a 

16 good first step and that fugitive methane 

17 emissions can and will be addressed by another 

18 rule at a later date. But later is likely to be 

19 too late. 

20 While EPA continues to study fugitive 

21 methane emissions, this rule, which is due to be 

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1 scale investment in new gas-fired power plants. 

2 Once these new plants are built, the owners will 

3 understandably expect to amortize construction 

4 costs over decades. If in a year, or two, or 

5 three EPA determines that fugitive emissions 

6 associated with fracked gas are as detrimental as 

7 many independent scientists now say they are, and 

8 if it turns out the curtailing fugitive emissions 

9 should prove to be an intractable problem, the 

10 Agency will not be in a position to reverse

11 course and demand that the newly constructed gas 

12 fired plants be taken off line.

13 For this reason fugitive emissions 

14 associated with shale gas must be addressed now 

15 in the proposed rule if it is to be an effective 

16 tool in fighting climate change. 

17 When EPA does consider the totality of 

18 harmful emissions associated with all fossil 

19 fuels it will become apparent that replacing one 

20 fossil fuel with another makes no sense.

21 A comprehensive assessment of life-cycle 

22 emissions will lead to only one conclusion. The 

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1 only responsible course of action is to rapidly 

2 develop renewable energy systems that will 

3 quickly free us from dependence on all fossil 

4 fuels.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

7 Go ahead, please.

8 MR. BUFALO: My name is Dave Bufalo, not 

9 buffalo.

10 MS. SUTIN: Oh, I'm sorry.

11 MR. BUFALO: Apologies accepted. B-u-f12 a-l-o. Again, first name is Dave.

13 I support clean air. I feel that's a 

14 good thing. I support clean water, that's a good 

15 thing. In this proposed regulation there's 

16 benefits -- the benefits of reducing nitrogen 

17 oxide emissions as well as sulfur dioxide 

18 emissions. 

19 EPA standards for nitrogen oxide was 

20 first set in 1971, nitrogen oxide EPA standards 

21 revised in January 2010. As of October 2012 no 

22 area of the country has been found to be out of 

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1 compliance. So why are you doing that?

2 The first sulfur dioxide standards were 

3 set in 1971. New sulfur dioxide standards were 

4 set in June 2010. Since 1980 to date, sulfur 

5 dioxide concentrations have decreased by 71 

6 percent. So why are you doing this? We've 

7 already got regulations to cover that.

8 Now, with respect to CO2 commentary, by 

9 the way, carbon dioxide is .04 percent of the 

10 atmosphere. Nowhere in this document does the 

11 EPA state what the percentage of atmosphere CO2 

12 should be. Nowhere in this document does the EPA 

13 say what the average global temperature should 

14 be. In earth's history CO2 concentrations have 

15 been as high as 6,000 parts per million. 

16 Greenhouses keep CO2 levels at 2,000 parts per 

17 million. 

18 The U.S. submarine fleet says 8,000 parts 

19 per million is the upper limit for air quality. 

20 Human tolerance for CO2 is between 10,000 ppm and 

21 15,000 parts per million and the current level of 

22 carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is 400 parts per 

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1 million. 

2 The EPA has assumed problem for rising 

3 CO2 levels, raising average global temperatures, 

4 but there has been no global warming for about 

5 the past 17 years. Even the IPC acknowledges 

6 this. 

7 You see where there are more frequent 

8 storms. Roger Culky of the University of 

9 Colorado at Boulder has debunked that method. 

10 Increased hurricane intensity and 

11 frequency has also been debunked by Dr. William 

12 Gray at the Colorado State University.

13 Sea level rise, there has been no 

14 observed increase in the rate of sea level rise. 

15 Sea level rise has been running about four 

16 millimeters a year for the last 50 years. 

17 Now, here's a few kickers. Dr. Ollie 

18 Spencer of the University of Alabama at 

19 Huntsville estimates that mankind's contribution 

20 to CO2 levels is 1 molecule of CO2 for every 

21 100,000 molecules of air over five years. 

22 Other countries are not cutting back on 

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1 their CO2 emissions. Australia has just repealed 

2 it's carbon facts. Since the Fukushima tsunami 

3 disaster Japan has shut down all of its nuclear 

4 plants and switched to coal fired plants.

5 Also since Fukushima, Germany is cutting 

6 down on it's nuclear plants and is now going to 

7 coal-fired plants.

8 China and India are continuing to go 

9 coal-fired plants. England won't agree to 

10 cutting CO2 emissions until the rest of the world 

11 agrees to do so also. 

12 Third world countries don't want their 

13 power options limited.

14 California legislators are now, June 2, 

15 '14 concerned about the financial impact of the 

16 cap and scrape program. Here's a publication 

17 that just came out. 

18 A July 19th, 2014 publication of 

19 Atmosphere Chemistry and Physics stated that only 

20 3.75 percent or 15 parts per million of 

21 atmospheric CO2 in the lower atmosphere is from 

22 burning fossil fuel. This is contrary to the 

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1 previous belief that fossil fuel has contributed 

2 130 parts per million of CO2 into the atmosphere.

3 Now, from EPA down, I calculated what the 

4 percent decrease in CO2 concentraiton would be 

5 under this proposal. Table 12 on page 34,936 

6 state that this program would lead to a decrease 

7 of 555 million metric tons of atmospheric CO2 by 

8 the year 2030. Big number. However, the weight 

9 of CO2 currently in the atmosphere is 3.1281 

10 times ten to the 14th metric tons. Now, I can't 

11 pronounce that number in regular English, but 

12 it's a measure of three followed by 14 zeros. 

13 That's roughly -- okay, so the percent reduction 

14 is .00018 percent. So if you round that back to 

15 about two decimal places, you get a current 

16 concentration of .04 percent. 

17 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Bufalo, I need to ask you 

18 to --

19 MR. BUFALO: Limiting by this plan will 

20 do nothing to cut CO2 worldwide.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Bufalo. 

22 Next if we could have Robert Jones and 

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1 Jeff Berman up to the podium. Thank you. Mr. 

2 Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, good morning. I'm 

4 Robert Jones, J-o-n-e-s. I'm a member of the 

5 Sierra Club.

6 Fossil fuel enabled the industrial 

7 revolution and provided a rising standard of 

8 living for many. However this gift of stored 

9 energy has many dangerous side effects. Smog and 

10 soot darkened our skies and damaged lungs, but 

11 eventually people took steps to limit these 

12 problems.

13 Later acid rain destroyed forests. We 

14 reduced sulfur emissions. Arsenic, mercury, and 

15 ozone emissions harmed people and animals. Again 

16 society acted to protect people and the 

17 environment. 

18 Now we recognize a new danger. Burning of 

19 fossil fuels is rapidly increasing the carbon 

20 dioxide concentration in the atmosphere. About a 

21 third of the extra carbon dioxide released into 

22 the air is absorbed by the oceans and results in 

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1 lowering the Ph level of ocean water. This 

2 decreased ph level presents an especially great 

3 risk for animals such as shell fish, coral, and 

4 many species of plankton that build their shells 

5 or exoskeletons from carbonates. Many of the 

6 coral reefs are at risk and oyster hatcheries in 

7 the Pacific Northwest already report that they 

8 can only take in sea water when the carbon 

9 dioxide level in the water is sufficiently low. 

10 The oceans supply much of our oxygen and 

11 a substantial portion of the world's protein. So 

12 the health of the oceans is important even for 

13 landlocked citizens.

14 The other major impact of carbon dioxide 

15 emissions is the increased greenhouse effect that 

16 results in global warming. The role of carbon17 based fuels and increasing global temperatures 

18 was recognized as early as the 1890s. Today 

19 there is compelling evidence that the earth is 

20 warming and science is highly confident that 

21 human activity makes major contributions. 

22 Since increased carbon dioxide in the 

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1 atmosphere persists for centuries, the cumulative 

2 effect of emissions is an accelerating rate of 

3 climate change. Thus, the greatest impact will 

4 be passed on to our children and grand children. 

5 The recent risky business report by 

6 business and policy leaders outlines billions of 

7 dollars of financial damages and health risks 

8 from climate change if we continue business as 

9 usual.

10 Along the eastern seaboard and gulf 

11 coast, rising sea levels will inundate low-lying 

12 areas and enhance storm damage that will drive 

13 these losses even higher. By 2050 temperatures of 

14 95 degrees Fahrenheit and above are expected for 

15 several months each summer in much of the 

16 southwest, southeast, and midwest. Higher 

17 temperatures will increase cooling costs and 

18 power generation demands. High temperatures 

19 combined with high humidity will result in deadly 

20 conditions for outside workers for several days 

21 each year across much of the eastern U.S. by 

22 2100. These are extreme conditions that do not 

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1 exist anyplace on the earth now. 

2 The report recognizes the adaptability of 

3 farmers but still expects significant 

4 agricultural losses, especially in the midwest 

5 and south. 

6 The report also acknowledges the reduced 

7 rainfall that's anticipated in the southwest but 

8 does not attempt to quantify the addition damages 

9 from this effect. This report only addresses 

10 direct damages to human and does not begin to 

11 explore any of the additional environmental 

12 changes. 

13 I believe that corporate citizens as well 

14 as the rest of us need to be responsible for the 

15 collateral damages of their actions, or, as mom 

16 would say, clean up your own mess. 

17 The EPA Clean Power Plan calls for a 30 

18 percent reduction in carbon emissions by 2030. 

19 This is achievable. It gives the states 

20 substantial latitude in reaching these goals.

21 American industry has proven many times 

22 over that it can successfully adapt to changing 

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1 conditions. I hope that industry, government, 

2 and the public will work together to reduce 

3 carbon emissions. It's the right thing to do for 

4 our future. Thank you.

5 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

6 Mr. Berman.

7 MR. BERMAN: Thank you. Good morning. 

8 My name is Jeff Berman, I am a rural electric 

9 cooperative director. I've been on the Oplata 

10 (ph) Electric Association Board of Directors for 

11 the past decade. I also am our representative to 

12 the statewide lobbying organization, the Colorado 

13 Rural Electric Association. I do not stand here 

14 to speak on behalf of CREA, I will speak on 

15 behalf of Oplata Electric and myself briefly.

16 In my capacity, in my role, in the last 

17 ten years I've done a tremendous amount of 

18 research. Of course, I spent a lot of time in 

19 board meetings and reviewing the actual effects 

20 of various regulatory proposals, legislative 

21 proposals, that would impact electricity 

22 generation in terms of its environmental impact, 

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1 reliability, its safety, and its affordability. 

2 And in that capacity, in the past, I have 

3 found and we have found on many an occasion where 

4 there are often, let's call them "exaggerate 

5 claims" of costs for our compliance. This is not 

6 surprising. The rural electric cooperatives 

7 nationwide of which there are about 900, serve, I 

8 believe, about 20 percent of the American 

9 population and much of the country 

10 geographically. 

11 We are more reliant on fossil fuels, 

12 particularly coal, than just about any other 

13 electric utility structure in the country. So it 

14 is not surprising that the National Rural 

15 Electric Cooperative Association and much of the 

16 rural electric cooperative industry is gearing up 

17 to challenge the clean power plant.

18 Now, while I've done a lot of reading, I 

19 sit in a lot of board rooms and I hear a lot of 

20 presentations on these issues. And as an 

21 electrical engineer I am a little bit able to 

22 decipher when we have a real challenge, which 

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1 there are some.

2 I don't have to sit in those board rooms 

3 and do the reading to see the evidence and the 

4 impacts. 

5 If you climb up to the Continental Divide 

6 in southwest Colorado, which I do on occasion, 

7 and you look down into one valley after another, 

8 walking along the divide, you will be shocked 

9 because our forests are gone. They are dying. 

10 Why are all the spruce trees dying? Because the 

11 spruce bark beetle has basically been turbo 

12 charged. 

13 In the past spruce bark beetles which 

14 kill spruce trees, they would be beaten back by 

15 cold winters and cold shoulder seasons. But as 

16 the evidence and climate change moves forward, 

17 unfortunately they're not getting beaten back by 

18 the cold weather. They are essentially turbo 

19 charged and they don't die back, and they are 

20 killing everything. They are killing all the 

21 forests up there. And you think, well, that's a 

22 minor impact, but it's not. It affects our 

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1 tourism, and it certainly will affect agriculture 

2 because the snow pack is held in large part by 

3 the forests at high altitude. And as those 

4 forests succumb and they fall over, you will not 

5 have the benefit of shade. On the snowpack 

6 runoff will occur more quickly, and we see this. 

7 We see t his in Durango, we see it in our Animas 

8 River, you can see it throughout our area, other 

9 evidence mounting is sparse.

10 So we have some concerns. EPA will be 

11 attacked for this. But I urge you to maintain 

12 your leadership role. This is a challenge that 

13 we must address. And unfortunately I believe the 

14 rural electric cooperatives will fight this 

15 including with many of my own electric bill 

16 dollars and marketing throughout the country that 

17 we must stand strong and while addressing the 

18 problems that rural electric cooperatives will 

19 present, we must move forward and adopt something 

20 like this rule. That is why my electric 

21 cooperative adopted a resolution urging the 

22 National Rural Electric Cooperative Association 

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1 to acknowledge climate change, its impacts, and 

2 for us to address our own contributions to it.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Berman.

5 Okay. If I can have Bill Dvorak, Brian 

6 Depew, Mildred Griffin and R. S. Harvey.

7 You can sit in those chairs and I'll call 

8 you when it's time for you to speak.

9 Okay. If Bill Dvorak and Brian Depew 

10 would step up to the podium. Mr. Dvorak, you can 

11 go first.

12 MR. DVORAK: It's actually Dvorak. 

13 MS. SUTIN: Dvorak.

14 MR. DVORAK: My name is Bill D-v-o-r-a-k.

15 And I own Bill Dvorak's pack, rafting, and 

16 fishing expeditions based in Colorado. We run 

17 nine different rivers based throughout Colorado, 

18 Utah, New Mexico and Wyoming. 

19 I'm also on the board of director and 

20 past chairman of the Colorado River Outfitters 

21 Association which represents outfitters 

22 throughout the states. 

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1 I thank you for this opportunity to 

2 testify regarding the EPA's proposed clean power 

3 plan. I am here today to strongly support your 

4 historic action to combat climate change by 

5 setting limits on carbon pollution from existing 

6 power plants.

7 Our warming climate is posing one of the 

8 greatest threats to the river outfitting business 

9 at which I make my living. We now have earlier 

10 and shorter spring runoff which occurs prior to 

11 when our clients typically can take their 

12 vacations. We also have to deal with recurring 

13 droughts. The one in 2002 was the worst one 

14 we've seen in Colorado in 350 years. 

15 We had a similar one in 2002 and we've 

16 had varied sorts of climate action ever since 

17 where we have extremes. One year it might be 

18 extremely high water, the next year it might be 

19 sort of low water. And it's been very unusual to 

20 actually have a normal season in the last 20-some 

21 years. 

22 In 2002 and 2012 our businesses were off 

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1 about 50 percent because of those droughts. 

2 The other thing that we've had to deal 

3 with is seasonal flooding. We've had floods, as 

4 you are aware here in Colorado that have had 

5 devastating effects not only on our rivers, but 

6 also on our infrastructure and our cities. We've 

7 had a lot of flash flooding that has actually 

8 killed a lot of the fish which, again, I'm a 

9 fishing outfitter, so fishing is very important 

10 to me. But the other thing that it's done is 

11 it's covered in silt, the river bottoms, and 

12 wiped out the insects that these fish rely on. 

13 So the flash flooding has also been a big 

14 impact.

15 The other thing that we've had to deal 

16 with is a lot of wildfires. And those have 

17 closed significant portions of many rivers 

18 throughout the state in the last ten years. 

19 The other thing that we've seen that the 

20 previous speaker alluded to is that in many of 

21 our rivers now, 60 to 70 percent of the trees 

22 along the river have died. And this is primarily 

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1 from the bark beetle infestation. And what's 

2 happening with bark beetles is we used to have 30 

3 degree below zero weather in the winter that 

4 would actually wipe the bark beetles out. And we 

5 don't have that anymore. 

6 The other thing that we used to have is 

7 we used to have one hatch a year where a bark 

8 beetle female would hatch out about 60 eggs, now 

9 it's double. That female is starting earlier, in 

10 May instead of in late June, the 60 eggs that she 

11 lays then have a second generation and so that's 

12 the turbo charging that you'll see. 

13 We're actually having about a 300-fold 

14 magnification in the number of bark beetles 

15 because they have that second generation every 

16 year. 

17 (Pause.) 

18 MR. DVORAK: We've also seen a lot of 

19 significant impacts because of both water 

20 quantity and water quality due to oil and gas 

21 development. I'm also a hunter and where I used 

22 to hunt, we've seen a lot of fragmentation. And 

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1 some of the areas that I used to hunt in which 

2 were the mule deer, some of the largest mule 

3 deer, migratory populations in the world, and we 

4 used to be able to go in there and seasonally --

5 sometimes you could take three or four animals 

6 out, just because they tried to keep the number 

7 of animals down to what the habitat could 

8 actually support. Now, you can't even draw a 

9 license in those areas because those populations 

10 have gone off 30 to 60 percent in many cases 

11 because of that fragmentation.

12 While natural gas may indeed release less 

13 CO2 than coal at the power plant, the problem 

14 that we have is methane leakage that occurs from 

15 poorly regulated oil and gas development. And, 

16 again, methane is one of those things that's 20 

17 to 100 times more ozone depleting than CO2. So 

18 we have to get a handle on what we're doing with 

19 the oil and gas industry as well as what we're 

20 doing with coal. 

21 That means that our future energy demands 

22 should be met with wildlife friendly renewable 

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1 energy sources like the sun and the wind as well 

2 as better energy efficiency. 

3 The EPA should actually strengthen the 

4 standard to reflect the potential of those 

5 renewables. 

6 The other thing is that in Colorado, 

7 outdoor recreation is the second largest economic 

8 driver. It contributes about $35 billion overall 

9 and about $20 billion to the gross domestic 

10 product. It supports more than 313,000 jobs or 

11 about 13 percent of the total workforce, and 

12 produces 12.4 billion in salaries and wages.

13 Angling, hunting, and wildlife viewing 

14 generated over $5 billion, and my own small 

15 outdoor industry contributed about 150 million. 

16 And I've got an actual report here that I can 

17 leave with you. Thank you for your time.

18 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Dvorak. And I 

19 apologize again for mispronouncing your name.

20 MR. DVORAK: That's fine.

21 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Depew?

22 MR. DEPEW: Thank you. My name is Brian 

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1 Depew, B-r-i-a-n D-e-p-e-w. I'm the executive 

2 director of the Center for Rural Affairs. I 

3 traveled here from Lyons, Nebraska, a town of 850 

4 people in northeast Nebraska to offer my support 

5 for your agency's action to address climate 

6 change.

7 For over 40 years the Center for Rural 

8 Affairs has worked for vibrant rural places with 

9 opportunity for all. Every day our work gives us 

10 a seat at the table in small towns across 

11 America. It's where we hear the good and the 

12 bad, the stories about hope and triumph. We hear 

13 from leaders who make our communities strong, and 

14 we hear from those who are too busy and working 

15 too hard to take any credit for that. 

16 Stories from people like Matt Russell, a 

17 fifth generation farmer in Iowa who is already 

18 experiencing the effects of climate change. He's 

19 worried that we won't be able to meet the needs 

20 of a growing population, that the agricultural 

21 systems we have in place now are no longer 

22 viable.

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1 Or Harley Bias, a conventional farmer 

2 from Minnesota, who decided to buck convention 

3 and now farms with carbon sequestration on his 

4 mind. He knows that it's his job, as a good 

5 steward to leave the land better than when he 

6 started. 

7 Matt and Harley live in the Midwest, a 

8 region that includes more than half a million 

9 farms producing crops valued at $136 billion per 

10 year and accounting for 65 percent of national 

11 production of corn and soybeans. 

12 If nothing changes, this region will 

13 experience yield declines of up to 19 percent by 

14 mid century and 63 percent by the end of the 

15 century. That puts people like Matt and Harley 

16 out of business. 

17 And it's not just farmers who are 

18 concerned. In Iowa, National Resource 

19 Administrator, Rich Leopold, faces the challenges 

20 that climate change possessed for Iowa's 

21 infrastructure and natural resources every day. 

22 Rich knows that we cannot simply afford to adapt 

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1 to severe flooding and extreme weather. 

2 We don't claim to speak for everybody, 

3 but the relationships we have built over the past 

4 four decades remind us that stewardship is still 

5 strong in rural America. That's why in the past 

6 few weeks more than 60 community leaders have 

7 added their names to a sign on letter that we 

8 drafted. That includes rural people from right 

9 here in Colorado. The letter will be delivered 

10 to Senators in Washington. 

11 And 600 friends of Rural American signed 

12 our petition in support of the carbon pollution 

13 standard we are discussing here today. That 

14 includes farmers, ranchers, people of faith, 

15 university professors, extension agents, 

16 scientists, tribal leaders, small business 

17 owners, local conservationists, reporters, 

18 artists, students, grandparents and 

19 grandchildren. Those are just some of the people 

20 who have been attending community conversations 

21 in small towns to discuss what climate change 

22 means and what we can do about it. And we're 

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1 just getting started. 

2 We hear from tribal leaders in Montana 

3 who are worried about losing higher elevation 

4 plants they depend on for consumption. 

5 Farmers and rural people can and will 

6 adapt. Double and triple cropping, crop 

7 switching, and other adaptive practices are all 

8 on the table. Key energy and energy efficiency 

9 present exciting economic opportunities, but you 

10 can only hear so much from farmers like Arlen 

11 Skipper who feels the biggest issue with climate 

12 right now is that there is no awareness. 

13 This rule isn't perfect, it won't solve 

14 all of our problems, but it's a good step in the 

15 right direction and that's why you will be 

16 hearing from rural people from across the country 

17 supporting these efforts. And that's why you'll 

18 see groups like ours committed to using outreach 

19 and education to overcome the misinformation and 

20 fear tactics that too often shape this debate.

21 Fred Ables an Iowa farmer says it best, 

22 "Climate change isn't something we can ignore, 

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1 now is time to face the problem head on."

2 I thank you for your willingness to do 

3 just that. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Depew.

5 If I can have Mildred Griffin and R.S. 

6 Harvey stand at the podium. And Ms. Griffin, 

7 you'll go first. 

8 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. Mildred Griffin, G9 r-i-f-f-i-n. Well, I don't have a business or 

10 anything, but I can easily see I'm just a regular 

11 person, and I can easily see climate change is 

12 here. And I wish to thank the EPA for all 

13 they're doing to clean up the air and the water.

14 My drinking water comes from the South 

15 Platt River, it's so filthy at times I don't know 

16 how they ever clean it enough to get it to be 

17 drinking water, but that's where my drinking 

18 water comes from. And I really appreciate clean 

19 water, and all the animals that live there, and I 

20 just hope you will just continue on getting rid 

21 of coal. The power plants that really cause 

22 pollution and the oil and gas industry just to --

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1 we have to have oil and gas, but it just needs to 

2 be cleaned up and watched carefully.

3 I am really for solar and small cars that 

4 don't pollute. I just appreciate all you're 

5 doing and just to continue on. Thank you very 

6 much. 

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Griffin.

8 Mr. Harvey.

9 MR. HARVEY: My name is Robert Harvey. 

10 I'm from Colorado Spring, Colorado. I'm a a 

11 civil engineer and a 30-year resident of Colorado 

12 Springs. 

13 In 1995 I climbed one of our downtown 

14 power plant chimneys and attempted to look down 

15 it for several minutes and had quite an epiphany, 

16 an emotional reaction, quite frankly that so much 

17 stuff is coming out of our chimneys that people 

18 are unaware of. They see the clouds from the 

19 cooling towers and they see that as a detriment 

20 to society, but they don't see the invisible 

21 gases that come out. 

22 I sat down after that with the plant 

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1 engineer and he gave me some data and I 

2 calculated, we both actually calculated it 

3 together that between our two coal-fired 

4 generating stations, if you were to put glass 

5 walls around the city limits of Colorado Springs, 

6 each year we would be about 170 feet deep in 

7 poisonous gas if the wind didn't blow and those 

8 glass walls held tight.

9 If you add to that automobiles and we're 

10 about 300 feet deep in our machine emissions. 

11 That's pretty pathetic. And that's when I got on 

12 my clean energy campaign and I've been talking 

13 about this for some 20 years in Colorado Springs, 

14 and it's a tough fight down there. I seek to 

15 find out why people believe what they believe. 

16 If you recall back when the global 

17 warming first came apparent, the first argument 

18 against it was, we don't have enough data to say 

19 that the temperature is rising. NASA put up 

20 satellites to confirm the data. Well, they went 

21 on to another denial position and quite frankly 

22 I'm not sure where they are right now, but 3 

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1 percent of the scientific knowledgeable community 

2 is certainly on board with where we are, where 

3 we're going; 97 percent are or 3 percent are 

4 denying, 97 percent are agreeing that we have a 

5 problem. And I keep trying to find out why 

6 people are against this. And it really does boil 

7 down to the ethics of money being the most 

8 important thing in our society.

9 And here in Colorado Springs where we 

10 have a large population of supposed Christian, 

11 evangelical, spiritually-minded people, you 

12 mention the word creation care to them and it 

13 just goes right over their head. Once again, the 

14 morality of money seem to dominate their 

15 perspective on where things are and where things 

16 are going. 

17 So I appreciate what EPA is doing. The 

18 Clean Air Act was a subject of study in my high 

19 school government class and ever since then I've 

20 paid attention to these sort of issues and I find 

21 that the coal industry in particular has 

22 perpetrated one of the biggest frauds in American 

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1 society since the Clean Air Act when they lobbied 

2 and were grandfathered exclusion from the Clean 

3 Air Act and then under the premise that their 

4 power plants wouldn't last that long and they'll 

5 be working their way out of the system very 

6 shortly and the industry went about pumping 

7 millions and millions of dollars into life 

8 expectancy -- life extension of these plants. So 

9 I think that you're probably going to hear -- I'm 

10 believing there's going to be a great deal of 

11 people that talk to you about their approval of 

12 where you're going. There's going to be some 

13 people that don't. And some of those folks have 

14 the ethics of money in their forefront. If we 

15 had put them in charge of getting us to the moon 

16 some 30 years ago, we would have blown up on the 

17 crash site because they just don't have a can-do 

18 attitude.

19 Colorado Springs utilities in the daytime 

20 peaks is about 900 megawatts. The night time 

21 base load is about 500 megawatts. So while 98 

22 percent of the population is sleeping, we're 

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1 still using about half the electricity. That's 

2 just crazy. There is so much room for 

3 improvement in the way we're doing things that we 

4 have to make it imperative that we change our 

5 habits. 

6 I see conservation is changing habits. 

7 Efficiency is changing systems. But we can 

8 certainly improve on all of the above. Some of 

9 the folks that you're going to hear from they're 

10 going to say, it's going to cost us more. And I 

11 frankly did my energy management strategies with 

12 customers' buildings. I find that there's a 

13 great deal -- number of people who would rather 

14 whine about their energy costs than actually do 

15 something about it. 

16 So we need to change that attitude and I 

17 think your rules will help to that end.

18 Thank you very much, I appreciate it. 

19 Oh, and by the way, one of our coal-fired 

20 generating stations releases 14,400 pounds of 

21 lead each year, according to the toxic release 

22 inventory. We've eliminated lead from paint, 

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1 gasoline, and crayons and I think we should 

2 probably eliminate it from our emissions as well. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

5 You can all be seated, thank you. 

6 Okay. If I can have Johnny Bear Cub 

7 Stiffarm, Reverend Nelson Bock, Brandon Cheshire 

8 and Nancy LaFacca.

9 Okay. If I can have Johnny Bear Cub 

10 Stiff Arm and Reverend Nelson Bock to the 

11 podiums, please.

12 All right. Ms. Stiffarm, if you want to 

13 go first, thank you. 

14 MS. BEAR CUB STIFFARM: I come to you in 

15 two capacities. First and foremost as a tribal 

16 member who lives on one of the few American 

17 Indian reservations with a class one are region 

18 designation.

19 And secondly, as an individual employed 

20 by one of the leaders in the voluntary carbon 

21 market. These public hearings along with 

22 numerous global warming related bills considered 

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1 over the past few years all demonstrate the 

2 importance and timeliness of our actions on 

3 combating and mitigating global climate change 

4 that is happening to our world. The proposed 

5 rule provides great flexibility which can be 

6 beneficial, but also causes guarded optimism in 

7 many individuals. 

8 I will speak first as a tribal member. 

9 The Fort Peck Indian reservation covers 

10 approximately 2,093,318 acres of rolling prairie 

11 land in northeastern Montana. The reservation 

12 environment is typical of the unique beauty found 

13 in the short-grass prairies of the northern great 

14 plains region. 

15 Elevations throughout the reservation 

16 vary from 1900 feet to 3100 feet. The remoteness 

17 of the Fort Peck reservation has so far protected 

18 the natural environment of the rural lifestyle of 

19 its people. Careful planning and foresight will 

20 ensure the maintenance of this valuable heritage 

21 for generations to come. 

22 Air quality monitoring establish baseline 

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1 air quality conditions on the reservation which 

2 reflect a very pristine environment. Tribal air 

3 quality goals include to protect and enhance, 

4 number one, the quality of the air of the Fort 

5 Peck reservation so as to protect and enhance 

6 human health, welfare, and safety. 

7 Two, the agricultural productivity of the 

8 reservation.

9 Three, the aesthetic and environmental 

10 quality of the reservation. 

11 And, four, to foster economic development 

12 on the reservation in a manner consistent with 

13 the preservation of the air quality of the 

14 reservation. 

15 The Fort Peck reservation is a class one 

16 air region and visibility is a valued aspect of 

17 the reservation's redesignation intent. 

18 Visibility monitoring is necessary for 

19 establishing baseline conditions to be used in 

20 evaluating impasse of any proposed sources or 

21 controls assessing the relative impasse of 

22 manmade pollution and natural sources that 

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1 contribute to visibility impairment. To that end 

2 the tribes have initiated improved monitoring as 

3 part of our overall air shed monitoring for long4 term visibility trends.

5 Class one redesignation allows for only 

6 degradation of the air shed by class one 

7 increments which are more restrictive. The 

8 tribes have received and reviewed increment 

9 consumption analysis completed by EPA for coal10 fired power plants in the state of North Dakota.

11 To date the increment for Fort Peck has 

12 not been consumed. However, developing oil and 

13 gas interests in the Balcan are expected to 

14 affect that increment and the tribes will expect 

15 that EPA will continue to monitor increment 

16 consumption in mandatory and other class one 

17 areas in this region. 

18 While we are aware that CO2 regulation is 

19 not primarily about air quality, it is well-known 

20 that heat waves, which we can expect more of in 

21 this warming world, make any given level of air 

22 quality impairment worse. 

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1 Just as we seek to minimize emissions of 

2 criteria pollutants, we should also seek to 

3 minimize circumstances that increase the adverse 

4 results of those emissions. As such, we applaud 

5 the EPA for it's efforts to minimize the impacts 

6 of global warming by reducing CO2 emissions.

7 While EPA has expertise in many areas and 

8 many types of pollutants, carbon pollution 

9 regulation is new. Add to this the burdens on 

10 tribal leadership to make the decision to retain 

11 class one designation or allow for change in the 

12 face of developing economic opportunity for 

13 fossil fuel extraction is heartbreaking, and is 

14 heartbreaking from every direction.

15 Will we have a choice or even have the 

16 opportunity to voice our opinion in the future. 

17 While I am cautiously optimistic, I am also a 

18 realist. The proposed rule is flexible and 

19 industry can live with it. But will it be enough 

20 to provide protection to those areas, especially 

21 to the tribes that do have a class one 

22 designation. 

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1 I speak secondly as an individual 

2 employed by one of the leaders in the voluntary 

3 carbon market. Native Energy Incorporated has 

4 been an active participant in the voluntary and 

5 mandatory carbon offsets and renewable energy 

6 credit market for over 13 years. 

7 In the U.S. both the voluntary and 

8 mandatory carbon markets have emerged and matured 

9 over the past 15 years. Methodologies and 

10 standards have been developed ensuring the 

11 environmental integrity -- thank you. 

12 MS. SUTIN: I'm sorry.

13 MS. BEAR CUB STIFFARM: I need to spell 

14 my last name. Capital B-e-a-r, capital C-u-b, 

15 space, capital S-t-i-f-f-a-r-m. 

16 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Bear Cub 

17 Stiffarm. Reverend Bock.

18 REVEREND BOCK: Yes, good morning. And 

19 thank you for listening. My name is Nelson Bock, 

20 and that's spelled B-o-c-k. I live here in 

21 Denver.

22 I'm a Lutheran minister and I teach on 

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1 the subject of religion and environment for a 

2 Lutheran college. I'm also a member of the 

3 Board of Directors of Colorado Interfaith Power 

4 and Light which is one of 40 state affiliates 

5 working with communities of faith around the 

6 country to lessen the impacts of climate change 

7 through education, through taking action to 

8 reduce their own carbon footprints and through 

9 advocacy for more environmentally responsible 

10 policies at every level of government. 

11 We do this out of our conviction that we 

12 human beings have a divine calling and 

13 responsibility as caretakers of the creation, 

14 that beautiful, intricate, interdependent web of 

15 life and natural resources upon which all life 

16 including our own depends. It is a sacred 

17 calling to care for a sacred gift. All major 

18 religious traditions share this belief in our 

19 calling to be stewards of creation.

20 To see ourselves not as the masters and 

21 commanders of the earth, but as part of a 

22 community of creatures who live an interdependent 

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1 existence. We are not outside or above the 

2 natural order, we are a part of it. And 

3 everything we do affects that natural order. We 

4 cannot pretend that our activity on the earth has 

5 no impacts or consequence. 

6 Our scriptures attest that the wellbeing 

7 of creation is dependent on our treating it and 

8 each other with reverence and respect. And in 

9 turn, our own wellbeing as a human community is 

10 dependent on the wellbeing of the ecosphere of 

11 which we are a part.

12 As people of faith, we believe that God 

13 speaks to us through creation and that scientific 

14 inquiry is one way that we discern what creation 

15 is saying to us. 

16 Now, concerns about climate change and 

17 intensive scientific research into its causes and 

18 potential effects have been going on for several 

19 decades. And we are now experiencing many of the 

20 impacts that scientists began alerting us to back 

21 then. 

22 Our climate is changing rapidly. There 

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1 is no getting around the facts. Carbon dioxide 

2 heats up in the presence of infrared radiation 

3 and we are significantly increasing the 

4 proportion of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

5 Now, that proportion may be only .4 

6 percent, but by way of perspective the same 

7 proportion of alcohol in your blood is fatal.

8 In addition atmospheric CO2 increases the 

9 acidity of oceans threatening the chemical 

10 balance which is so key to the ocean's ecosystem. 

11 On behalf of the world's poor and 

12 vulnerable who are most susceptible to harm from 

13 the impacts of climate change and whom we also 

14 have a sacred duty to care for and protect, and 

15 on behalf of future generations of humans and all 

16 species, I urge you to adopt the proposed rules 

17 as a first step toward bringing our emissions of 

18 greenhouse gases under control in order to help 

19 minimize the impacts of climate change. 

20 As Chief Seattle is reported to have said 

21 when the United States government proposed to 

22 purchase some of the last remaining Indian lands, 

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1 "This we know, all things are connected. The 

2 earth does not belong to us, we belong to the 

3 earth. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the 

4 children of earth. We did not weave the web of 

5 life, we are merely a strand in it, whatever we 

6 do to the web, we do to ourselves."

7 Thank you. 

8 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Bock.

9 Okay. If I can have Brandon Cheshire and 

10 Nancy LeFacca come to the podium.

11 Mr. Cheshire, you can go first. Thanks.

12 MR. CHESHIRE: Hello and good afternoon. 

13 My name is Brandon Cheshire, B-r-a-n-d-on C-have14 e-s-h-i-r-e. And I am the founder and director 

15 of production at Arizona-based Center of the 

16 Solar. My industry has experienced tremendous 

17 growth due to plummeting solar panel costs, 

18 rising energy costs, and ideal irradiance levels. 

19 Center of the Solar currently employs 20 

20 people hailing from diverse backgrounds including 

21 the semiconductor industry, the electrical 

22 industry, ASU sustainability students, 

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1 environmental scientists, communications, NGOs as 

2 well as former military veterans. We've 

3 installed over 10 megawatts of solar in Arizona 

4 and continue to double in size and revenue 

5 annually since 2009. 

6 Last year the solar industry alone 

7 employed over 10,000 people in Arizona and 

8 119,000 Americans nationally. 

9 I did not imagine I would ever become 

10 politically involved in environmental policy, 

11 activism of nonprofit work when I started a solar 

12 company. The more I learned about the carbon 

13 pollution issue, the more I felt compelled to act 

14 on behalf of those who could not or those who 

15 would not. 

16 I have participated or volunteered as an 

17 invested stakeholder for such environmental 

18 organizations as the Sierra Club's Beyond Coal 

19 Campaign, the Forward on Climate Rally, Outdoors 

20 Climate Reality Project, Citizens Climate Lobby, 

21 the Great March for Climate Action and look 

22 forward to the People's Climate March in New York 

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1 for the U.N.'s historic summit on climate change 

2 in September. 

3 Upon my return to Arizona I plan to file 

4 paperwork to establish a 501(c)(3)-(c)(4) called 

5 green communities whose intent will be to make 

6 solar power and energy efficiency more accessible 

7 to lower-income communities in Arizona.

8 I represent many Arizona voices and 

9 organizations today to voice public support in 

10 favor of the president's Clean Power Plan. We do 

11 not have to choose between the health of our 

12 children and the health of our economy. Your 

13 greed gave me asthma and I deserve clean are are 

14 signs created by my children who have the right 

15 to clean air, clean water, and clean energy.

16 In this picture you see here of my 

17 children holding signs, the Arizona Republic 

18 article reported on that event and other media 

19 coverage. There's other issues on there. 

20 On the bottom, all of the drugs that my 

21 children take daily to live with their current 

22 level of 402 parts per million concentrate in the 

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1 environment, in the atmosphere. 

2 The Navajo coal generating station that 

3 is polluting the air at the Grand Canyon and 

4 deterring tourism.

5 My favorite natural wilderness spot 

6 Fossil Creek is closed regularly due to drought 

7 and fire restrictions. And, again, for monsoon 

8 seasons that cause torrential downpours and 

9 potential flash floods. Ironically, this is also 

10 memorialized on my son's first protest.

11 Until we value the trees for their 

12 ability to convert pollution to oxygen more than 

13 we value the lumber they produce, my ten-year-old 

14 son, Jackson, will continue to suffer with the 

15 effects of childhood asthma and along with his 

16 seven-year-old brother, Keegan, with severe 

17 allergies.

18 The greed of a few should not surpass the 

19 needs of all. There is a coal industry. There 

20 is also a tobacco industry, both do exist, both 

21 are harmful and both are potentially deadly 

22 things that society would be far healthier 

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1 without.

2 Our climate is observably changing, the 

3 science is clear, and we are a major contributor 

4 to this climate.

5 Science tells us that roughly 80 percent 

6 of the fossil fuel reserves need to stay on the 

7 ground for us to maintain a habitable planet for 

8 human beings. Whether or not one agrees with 

9 climate change, there is not a downside to 

10 healthy clean air, water, soil, forest, rivers, 

11 lakes, and wildlife. 

12 Winston Churchill said, "The truth is 

13 incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance 

14 may deride it, but in the end there it it, 

15 truth." The truth is that there are more than 

16 enough free clean energy resources and renewable 

17 energies that we can meet our energy needs many 

18 times over without poisoning the air and water 

19 around us. 

20 The clean power plant is the catalyst to 

21 shift towards sustainable deployment of renewable 

22 energies. We will get the power we need and a 

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1 better world in the process. We also free 

2 ourselves from relying on energy sources outside 

3 the U.S. from nations that may be hostile to us.

4 We possess the technology now to do the 

5 right thing now and that is exactly the reason I 

6 support the EPA, the clean power plan and the 

7 future that considered intergenerational justice 

8 on a finite planet. We all place ourselves in 

9 danger to one degree or another every time we 

10 stand up, but we place our children and our 

11 grandchildren in even greater danger when we 

12 don't.

13 Thank you. 

14 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Cheshire. 

15 It is a little after ten and our building 

16 is already at capacity. So I wanted to make an 

17 announcement for those folks who can leave and 

18 allow others the opportunity to come listen and 

19 hear would greatly be appreciated. In the spirit 

20 of cooperation and fairness we want to try and 

21 allow everyone the opportunity to come in and be 

22 a part of the proceedings today. Thank you. 

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1 There's also room in the overflow. 

2 There's a little bit more room in the overflow 

3 rooms for those who are standing. 

4 One second.

5 (Pause.) 

6 MS. SUTIN: Okay. Ms. LaPlacca, go 

7 ahead.

8 MS. LaPLACCA: Hi, my name is Nancy 

9 LaPlacca and I'm a regulatory consultant and I've 

10 spent about the past ten years at the Public 

11 Utilities Commission in one way or another 

12 working for clean energy. 

13 My first experience was in 2006 and '07 

14 when along with my colleague Leslie Blustrom we 

15 filed to stop Xcel Energy from building a so16 called "clean coal plant" which would have been a 

17 $1.3 billion boondoggle. Leslie and I went up 

18 against Xcel Energy, the fourth largest utility 

19 in the country just as citizens and after about 

20 six months Xcel withdrew their plan. And I'm 

21 sure they did. I'm sure they're glad they did 

22 because really these clean coal plants don't work 

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1 as advertized, they're totally uneconomic.

2 And the reason I bring that up is because 

3 after ten years in the regulatory arena, four 

4 years as a policy advisor to an elected 

5 commissioner, Paul Newman, in Arizona who was 

6 defeated by fossil fuel and Alec money in the 

7 last election. What I see is a regulatory system 

8 that is not responsive. What I see is lots of 

9 hardworking, wonderful people at the EPA coming 

10 up with great rules. And I see a culture in 

11 crisis where we're propping up an old, dead, 

12 industry that should be put to bed. 

13 And I'd like to say a few things that 

14 really are meaningful. Every year the coal 

15 industry buys $40 billion worth of coal, that's 

16 4-0 billion, 40 billion. They turn that $40 

17 billion worth of raw coal into $160 billion worth 

18 of electricity that they sell for roughly a 10 

19 percent profit. That $160 billion worth of coal20 fired electricity does $530 billion worth of 

21 damage every year.

22 So let's go through the numbers again; 40 

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1 billion in coal, it becomes 160 billion in 

2 electricity that does $530 billion worth of 

3 damages.

4 My first grandchild was born a few months 

5 ago. I am worried because what the International 

6 Energy Agency says is that by 2030s the planet 

7 will be 3.6 degrees centigrade hotter. Life on 

8 earth is not compatible with anything over three 

9 degrees centigrade. That's 2035 when she'll be 

10 in her -- far too young to be looking at a 

11 decimated planet. 

12 The benefits of coal compliance are at 

13 least seven to 30 times the cost, as I'm sure all 

14 you EPA are well aware of. We must change. And 

15 what I've seen is that we have a public utility 

16 structure that basically kowtows to the utility 

17 industry. Why? Cha-ching, cha-ching. 

18 It will be no surprise to anyone who has 

19 ever been involve in politics that money rules. 

20 And I tell people that when you're a utility, the 

21 first thing you do is own the governor, then you 

22 own the legislature, and because the governor 

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1 pretty much picks the commissioners, you pretty 

2 much own the commission. So here we have a 

3 country -- let me give you a couple of numbers 

4 around the country to show you how -- just how 

5 sad it is.

6 Sunny, Arizona, where I lived for 25 

7 years, hiked the canyons, hiked Fossil Creek, 

8 some of my fondest memories are Fossil Creek 

9 which is drying up, 3.2 percent solar and 50 

10 percent coal. Let me repeat, Arizona, 3.2 

11 percent solar and 50 percent coal. Why? Because 

12 it's not sunny, because solar doesn't pay off? 

13 No, it's because it's a rigged system. 

14 Here in Sunny -- here in beautiful Colorado we're 

15 what, 1/2 percent solar. You know, Xcel Energy 

16 spends millions of dollars to try to defeat the 

17 amendments 37 and now they want to own wind. 

18 Why? Because wind saves money. 

19 We have practically no solar hot water in 

20 this entire country. This entire country? What 

21 are we doing? We're fracking. 

22 Randy Udall, bless his soul, may he rest 

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1 in peace, I worked for his father, Moe, may Randy 

2 rest in peace. He used to say, that if we wanted 

3 to do all the fracked gas that these guys want to 

4 do, we'd have to drill 50,000 wells a year, 

5 50,000. 

6 And as one of my witnesses told me, it's 

7 a scam. It's a land and a stock scam. Where the 

8 decline rates on the well are so high the 

9 production costs are so high and the commodity 

10 costs, gas at four or five bucks a million BTU is 

11 so low that they're making money on the stock and 

12 the land deals. And what are they going to leave 

13 us with, dirty air, dirty water, contaminated 

14 ground water, plummeting housing values. 

15 Do you know what housing values are doing 

16 right now in Arizona, my friend -- my poor friend 

17 Brenda, why, because they refused to recognize 

18 the drought is going to kill half their water 

19 supply. The Colorado River is going down. 

20 Anyway, I thank you kindly for listening 

21 to me and I hope and I pray that for the sake of 

22 everyone in here's children and grandchildren we 

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1 have the good sense to do what we should do.

2 So thank you.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. LaPlacca.

4 You can all have a seat, thank you. 

5 Okay. If I could have Sean Lamb, Anna 

6 Giovinetto, sorry if I'm getting that wrong, John 

7 Shultzbarger, and Alan Apt, if you could all come 

8 up and sit by the podium. Okay. Mr. Lamb and 

9 Ms. Giovinetto, if you could stand up and Mr. 

10 Lamb, you'll go first. 

11 MR. LAMB: Okay. So thank you for 

12 hearing my testimony today. I basically came in 

13 to give a different perspective, which is my own 

14 perspective in the wind industry. So I'm a 

15 former telecom engineer and before that I was 

16 actually an astrophysicist so I know a lot about 

17 the climate change signs.

18 But in the last seven years I've been in 

19 the wind industry and I've worked for major 

20 companies like General Electric and Nordex. 

21 I just want to give a perspective that 

22 basically spells out jobs. So my current role is 

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1 a program director for the wind energy program at 

2 Ecotech Institute which is a for-profit college 

3 in Aroura, Colorado. We've graduated probably 

4 about 580, roughly 550 students. We've placed 

5 over 80 percent of those students in jobs in the 

6 renewable energy industry.

7 I get to see these students face to face 

8 when they come and their excitement. We're a 

9 destination school, so we get students from all 

10 over the country, moving to Colorado just to go 

11 to school here. And then they're willing to pick 

12 up and move out of Colorado and go over the four 

13 corners of the country to work in wind, solar, 

14 energy efficiency jobs. And so I'm kind of 

15 marinated in that environment of not only green, 

16 but just the excitement level of a renewable 

17 energy jobs. And so I came here basically to 

18 give my perspective which is also international. 

19 I worked for a German company, I worked for a 

20 Danish company, you know, in Europe the 

21 perspective for wind and renewable energy is 

22 completely different than the United States. 

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1 It's very well accepted. It's a point of pride 

2 because the technology advancements have moved us 

3 to a different level of creating green electrons. 

4 So electrons that don't have an associated 

5 poisoning component, to use that blunt term.

6 I also want to talk a little bit about my 

7 own background personally is I have three kids, 

8 and, you know, about 15 years ago when my son was 

9 born, I lived in Atlanta and there was an EPA 

10 moratorium on pollution control in Atlanta at 

11 that time to create growth in the Atlanta metro 

12 and that area. But what it did is it caused 

13 horrible smog problems and horrible pollution 

14 problems in metro Atlanta that basically they 

15 would tell us for two weeks, three weeks out of 

16 the year, you know, small children shouldn't even 

17 go outside. And I thought that was ridiculous 

18 and that's one of the things that allowed me to 

19 leave engineering and go to solar first and then 

20 wind later. 

21 But as my colleague is going to describe 

22 in a minute, the different jobs that have been 

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1 created in Colorado and throughout the country, I 

2 just wanted to echo the excitement and the 

3 feeling from our students and me being an 

4 instructor and being kind of -- like I said, 

5 marinated in the culture and it is real and the 

6 jobs are real. And I just wanted to express that 

7 view. Thank you for listening.

8 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Lamb.

9 Ms. GIovinetto, am I saying it right. 

10 MS. GIOVINETTO: Geovinetto, so that's 

11 spelled G as in George i-o-v as in Victor, i-n-e12 t-t-o.

13 So, good morning, my name is Ann 

14 Giovinetto and I'm vice president of corporate 

15 affairs for Renewable Energy Systems. We are 

16 headquartered in Bloomfield, Colorado.

17 We employ more than 300 full-time 

18 professionals and we are engaged in the 

19 development and construction of utility scale 

20 wind, solar transmission, and energy storage 

21 projects across North America. We are part of 

22 the RES Group and leading international renewable 

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1 energy developer. 

2 We support the EPA's clean power plan and 

3 will contribute to the detailed written comments 

4 submitted by the Wind Energy Trade Association to 

5 OEM. 

6 In my comments this morning, I will 

7 highlight some key points that we think are 

8 particularly helpful and identify a way in which 

9 the draft plan can be improved.

10 The U.S. electricity accounts for about 

11 40 percent of our national carbon emissions. 

12 That means it's a good place to look for ways to 

13 cost effectively reduce carbon, and wind energy 

14 offers a great solution. 

15 After energy efficiency on-shore wind 

16 energy is the cheapest, fastest way to reduce the 

17 carbon intensity of our nation's energy portfolio 

18 and it benefits the economy in the process. For 

19 this reason we are encouraged that the draft plan 

20 recognizes state clean energy programs and the 

21 use of renewable energy and energy efficiency as 

22 compliance mechanisms. 

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1 We also like that the draft plan has 

2 interim targets to encourage states to meet their 

3 emission reduction requirements and that states 

4 have the ability to work together on regional 

5 approaches to reduce the carbon which may prove 

6 to be the most cost effective approach. 

7 However, we think the draft plan should 

8 be more ambitious in terms of setting targets and 

9 dates for reductions in carbon emissions.

10 We see a significant missed opportunity 

11 to fully harvest the tremendous benefits 

12 available to increased deployment of wind energy.

13 Wind energy is widely available, 

14 affordable, and reliable. And it's already 

15 providing meaningful carbon reductions. 

16 I 2013 alone, U.S. wind energy avoided 

17 carbon emissions equivalent to taking 20 million 

18 cars off the road. In fact, the 61 gigawatts of 

19 wind energy installed nationwide provide the same 

20 amount of electricity as 53 average coal plants 

21 but with no carbon emissions.

22 Perhaps most importantly the industry has 

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1 shown that we can install a lot of wind capacity 

2 in a short amount of time. Since the end of 

3 2005, on average, the U.S. has doubled its wind 

4 energy capacity every 36 months, including a 

5 record 13 gigawatts in 2012.

6 We currently get about 4 percent of our 

7 electricity from wind energy nationwide. Later t 

8 his year the Department of Energy will release an 

9 updated version of its wind vision report which 

10 provides a roadmap for getting to 35 percent wind 

11 energy by 2050. It reports preliminary findings 

12 which are posted on the DOE website indicate that 

13 35 percent by 2050 would reduce electric sector 

14 carbon emissions by 26 percent. That would avoid 

15 $520 billion in damages from climate change, save 

16 $16 to 103 billion in public health and 

17 environmental costs and save consumers about 3 

18 percent on their electricity costs. 

19 In summary, 35 percent wind energy by 

20 2050 is ambitious, but achievable. And will 

21 yield significant climate, economic, health and 

22 environmental benefits.

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1 The EPA's final plan should take this 

2 increase in its carbon emission reduction targets 

3 for 2030 to reflect wind energy potential 

4 contributions documented by DOE.

5 In conclusion, I commend the EPA for its 

6 draft clean power plan. I urge you to be bold 

7 and set ambitious targets for responding to the 

8 global climate crisis. If we don't take decisive 

9 action now, we are setting ourselves up for a 

10 future with threatened food production, increased 

11 risk of violent conflict and deadly disease, 

12 water shortages and human suffering on a massive 

13 scale. All of which will have huge economic 

14 class as well. 

15 The United States didn't single-handedly 

16 create the global climate crisis and we can't 

17 single-handedly reverse it either. But as a 

18 nation, we must stand up and take a leadership 

19 role in addressing it and the clean power plan is 

20 a significant step forward.

21 Thank you for the opportunity. 

22 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Giovinetto.

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1 Mr. Shutlzbarager and Alan Apt, please if 

2 you could come to the podium, and Mr. 

3 Shultzabarger, you'll go first. 

4 MR. SHULTZABARGER: Okay. Hi, thanks for 

5 having me here today. My name is John 

6 Shultzabarger, S-h-u-l-t-z-a-b-a-r-g-e-r, and 

7 that's John with an H.

8 I am a director of development with EDF 

9 Renewable Energy and I'm based here in Denver.

10 EDF Renewable Energy is a renewable 

11 energy development and operations company 

12 dedicated in its efforts to create the most 

13 efficiency renewable energy projects possible. 

14 We have more than 25 years of expertise in the 

15 renewable energy and we have a portfolio of over 

16 5,900 megawatts of developed projects and 2800 

17 megawatts of installed capacity. We specialize 

18 here in North America in wind and solar voltaic 

19 with presence in other forms of renewable energy 

20 such as biogas, biomass, hydro, marine energy and 

21 storage solutions. 

22 EDF Renewable Energy employs nearly a 

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1 thousand people in North America including over 

2 800 here in the United States. 

3 As the leading provider of third-party 

4 operations and maintenance services to the 

5 renewable energy industry in North America, our 

6 team services over 60 to 100 turbines and over 

7 two million solar panels which combined generate 

8 over 8,000 megawatts of electricity. 

9 Globally, EDFRE is part of the EDF group 

10 which has over 139,000 megawatts of generating 

11 capacity worldwide. The output of which is 

12 nearly 85 percent carbon free -- carbon emissions 

13 free. 

14 Today I'm also here representing the 

15 American Wind Energy Association, AWEA. AWEA is 

16 the national trade organization for the U.S. wind 

17 industry with thousands of member and wind policy 

18 advocates. AWEA promotes wind energy as a clean 

19 source of electricity with virtually no air 

20 emissions of any sort or water use. Given the 

21 threat to public health and welfare posed by 

22 increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases as 

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1 documented by the EPA, the National Academy of 

2 Sciences, and others we commend the EPA for it's 

3 draft clean power plant and to reduce carbon 

4 emissions.

5 The EPA proposal will help move our 

6 nation toward a cleaner, more stable environment 

7 for future generations while still supplying the 

8 reliable, affordable power needed for economic 

9 growth.

10 The EPA draft is generally well thought 

11 out in our opinion. In particular we support 

12 incorporating the role played by zero emitting 

13 renewable energy and setting the state carbon 

14 reduction targets and allowing renewable energy 

15 as compliance option to help meet those targets. 

16 The inclusion of interim targets helps ensure 

17 safety of their carbon reduction requirements in 

18 a timely manner and stays on track and the 

19 endorsement of programs like state renewable 

20 electricity standards as compliant also helps. 

21 We also appreciate the allowance for multi-state 

22 opportunities for reducing carbon emissions.

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1 While we strongly support the role, we 

2 believe the EPA's assumptions related to 

3 renewable energy are very conservative relative 

4 to the amount of timely and cost-effective 

5 reductions truly available from renewable sources 

6 and that the final rule can and should require 

7 emissions reductions that could go further and 

8 faster than proposed in the draft rule. 

9 The wind energy industry is already 

10 producing significant carbon emissions reductions 

11 while lowering costs to consumers and benefitting 

12 the economy. The current fleet of wind turbines, 

13 for example, reduced carbon emissions in 2013 by 

14 nearly 127 million tons, the equivalent of 

15 reducing power sector emissions by more than 5 

16 percent when compared to 2011. 

17 Wind energy also conserves water and 

18 reduces emissions of other harmful substances 

19 like nitrogen oxide, mercury, and sulfur dioxide.

20 Eleven states are already achieving 

21 carbon emission reductions of 10 percent or more 

22 due to the use of wind energy alone with three 

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1 additional states just under 10 percent. 

2 In terms of economic development, the 

3 U.S. wind industry provides significant 

4 contributions. It has attracted over 15 billion 

5 annually in investment into U.S. communities over 

6 the past five years. It supports more than 

7 50,000 U.S. jobs. There are more than 550 

8 manufacturing facilities spread across the 44 

9 states supplying the industry. 

10 The wind industry also supports local 

11 businesses, schools, communities, and other 

12 services through its activities and investments. 

13 We know in particular that here in 

14 Colorado, the state's largest electric utility to 

15 sell energy has utilized significant amounts of 

16 solar and wind generation as critical components 

17 of a least cost portfolio for rate payers. 

18 Wind energy is a widely available, 

19 affordable, reliable and rapidly scalable source 

20 of carbon emission reductions and avoidance. 

21 Wind energy can and should play an even larger 

22 role going forward in terms of carbon emission 

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1 reductions.

2 The National Renewable Energy Laboratory 

3 has calculated with 20 percent wind energy in the 

4 Eastern U.S. would produce power sector carbon 

5 emissions by 25 percent. And 30 percent of 

6 energy could cut emissions by up to 37 percent. 

7 The proposed EPA 111(d) rules are an 

8 excellent start toward making the nation's carbon 

9 reduction rules. The importance of their 

10 adoption after taking public input into account, 

11 cannot be overstated. We also believe that the 

12 EPA 111(d) rules would be most successful when 

13 accompanied by other elements of a long-term 

14 national energy policy that recognizes the value 

15 of technologies with no air emissions including 

16 greenhouse gases and use no water.

17 We will be submitting written comments in 

18 the draft rule prior to the October deadline. 

19 Thanks again for the opportunity to speak 

20 here.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Mr. Apt.

22 MR. APT: Well, thank you for this 

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1 opportunity. My name is Alan Apt, spelled A-p-t. 

2 I'm a former Port City council member. In 1997 

3 we adopted the first municipal wind program which 

4 was tremendously successful in spite of the fact 

5 that we asked customers of the utility to pay an 

6 additional 20 percent for that wind power. The 

7 power authority just recently purchased another 

8 32 megawatts of wind, so I heartily agree that 

9 wind is one of the energies of the future.

10 The state of Colorado ahs done a good job 

11 of cutting emissions with renewable energy 

12 standards that have created thousands of clean 

13 energy jobs in the solar and wind industry. 

14 Unfortunately, we've still get over 60 percent of 

15 our energy from burning coal. 

16 Strong regulation of greenhouse gas is 

17 long overdue, badly needed, to send a signal to 

18 the utilities that coal is a 19th century 

19 technology that has to be phased out completely 

20 over time. I have great empathy for those 

21 working the coal industry. Though I've lived in 

22 Colorado for 40 years, I'm a Pennsylvania native 

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1 and my grandfather died at age 56 from black lung 

2 disease. 

3 We need to retrain miners in renewable 

4 energy jobs that won't threaten their health and 

5 our health. Generating energy with wind and 

6 solar would create far more jobs than the coal 

7 industry ever has. The negative effects of coal 

8 are significant, not only to individual miners, 

9 but as you know, anyone who suffers from asthma 

10 nationwide. Asthma among children is at almost 

11 epidemic levels. In part, because of the 

12 pollution from coal-burning power plants. 

13 There is no such thing as clean coal. 

14 All coal burning, even with current state-of-the15 art pollution controls dumps trillions of tons of 

16 pollutants into the atmosphere, something you are 

17 well aware of, and this is the air that we are 

18 breathing.

19 We have to stop using the atmosphere as a 

20 free dump. Regulations that require Colorado to 

21 further reduce our emissions are needed. We lack 

22 the political will to do as much on our own.

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1 Greenhouse gases are already having a 

2 deleterious and profound effect on our local and 

3 global climate. Scientists estimate the the 

4 melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland 

5 will cause sea levels to rise, not by six to 12 

6 inches, but as you know, by three to ten feet by 

7 next century. 

8 Storms are becoming more violent and 

9 unpredictable worldwide and drought and wild 

10 fires not only here in Colorado, but even in 

11 states like Oregon and Washington. We cannot 

12 gamble with our safety or the safety of our 

13 children and grandchildren any longer. Not 

14 regulating greenhouse gases is reckless at best.

15 The overall effects of climate change are 

16 unpredictable and not worth the risk. 

17 Fortunately renewable wind and solar energy are 

18 now very cost effective and offer economical and 

19 reliable alternatives to fossil fuels cutting 

20 greenhouse gas emissions by 70 percent, not 30 

21 percent, will shift our energy production to 

22 renewable energy. Please 70 percent. 

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1 Colorado's renewable energy standards 

2 have not and will not lead to major increases in 

3 energy rates. They will lead to gradually 

4 increasing rates as will any energy source 

5 including coal and natural gas.

6 The price of coal has significantly 

7 increased. If the true cost of the environmental 

8 damage coal does were included in its price, it 

9 would be far more expensive than any form of 

10 energy. Coal plants also consume millions of 

11 gallons of water. This is not sustainable in a 

12 high mountain desert. 

13 I would like to thank the EPA and the 

14 Obama administration for this initiative since 

15 Congress refuses to act. I hope Colorado and the 

16 EPA can work together on more significant 

17 reductions on emissions of all kinds especially 

18 greenhouse gas. It is time to close outdated 

19 coal plants, not build anymore anywhere and shift 

20 away from 19th century technology to 21st century 

21 solutions that will protect our climate and 

22 health and provide millions of clean energy jobs.

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1 Thank you. 

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Mr. Apt, were you 

3 representing -- were you just testifying for 

4 yourself, or were you representing an 

5 organization? 

6 MR. APT: Testifying for myself.

7 MS. SUTIN: Okay. Great. Thank you. 

8 You can all be seated.

9 We're waiting for others to come that 

10 were scheduled to testify. So we will pause for 

11 a few minutes. As soon as those people arrive, 

12 we'll start up again.

13 (Pause.) 

14 MS. SUTIN: I have one more quick 

15 announcement. If there's anyone here who wants 

16 to speak that either thought they couldn't or 

17 haven't yet, if you want to check with the 

18 registration desk, there are several people that 

19 didn't show. And so we have some extra spots. 

20 So if you would like to speak, just check in with 

21 the registration desk and they will help you out.

22 (Brief recess taken at 11:34 a.m.)

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1 (Record resumes at 11:55 a.m.)

2 MS. SUTIN: Okay. We're going to get 

3 started again. I just want to make sure we have 

4 our first three speakers. Do we have Frank 

5 Swayne, Ryan VanWest, and Julie Moil, if you 

6 could all come up and sit in the chair.

7 Mr. Swayne, if you would like to come up?

8 MR. SWAYNE: Sure. Good morning, my name 

9 is Frank Swayne and I'm the energy advocate with 

10 Conservation Colorado, the state's largest 

11 environmental advocacy group that is member-based 

12 here in the centennial state. 

13 Thank you so much for providing 

14 opportunity to comment on this monumental effort 

15 to tackle carbon pollution. The EPA's clean 

16 power plan will for the first time in U.S. 

17 history, and not a moment too soon, place 

18 safeguards on carbon pollution from power plants.

19 It is a crucial step forward in the fight 

20 against climate change. As the number one source 

21 of greenhouse gases in the U.S., it is due time 

22 that we as a nation start taking real action to 

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1 reduce carbon pollution from the power sector.

2 This will clean our air, fight climate 

3 change, and enhance the state and national 

4 economy. Communities across Colorado are already 

5 seeing and feeling the impacts of climate change 

6 from increased health risks like asthma attacks 

7 and respiratory disease to devastating fires and 

8 floods. 

9 Although we have protections against 

10 mercury, soot and other air toxins, there are no 

11 limits on air pollution fro power plants, even 

12 though they are the single biggest source in the 

13 United States. 

14 It was not long ago, growing up on the 

15 east coast that I actually heard about the Denver 

16 brown cloud. No, at 12 years old I was not an 

17 air pollution aficionado, but the brown cloud was 

18 really that bad. I heard about it, it garnered 

19 national news attention. 

20 But, instead of denying we had a problem, 

21 Coloradans rose to the challenge, that's the 

22 Colorado way. With the help of landmark laws 

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1 like the U.S. Clean Air Act Coloradans pulled up 

2 their sleeves and worked together to reduce our 

3 brown cloud's air pollution and once again opened 

4 up our Rocky Mountain blue skies.

5 Today we face similar challenges, but our 

6 need to work together and to get to work is the 

7 same. After our brown cloud success other parts 

8 of our air quality has worsened in Colorado. 

9 This is from not only more unfettered oil and gas 

10 development in our state and transportation 

11 sources, but it's made worse by more carbon, more 

12 pollution being dumped into our atmosphere. 

13 The good news in Colorado we have started 

14 to take steps to do our part nationally to reduce 

15 carbon pollution and greenhouse gases in our air. 

16 Ten years ago our state became the first in the 

17 nation where the voters decided to get a portion 

18 of their electricity from renewable sources, the 

19 wind and the sun. 

20 Since then the state has three separate 

21 times increased and expanded that renewable 

22 energy standard, transferred our grid's energy 

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1 mix to cleaner fuel sources and advanced some of 

2 the strongest energy saving measures in the west.

3 What have all those nation-leading 

4 investments and policies done to Colorado? We 

5 have one of the nation's most vibrant economies. 

6 Utility prices are below the national average in 

7 the ever burgeoning clean tech sector that has 

8 contributed $15.5 billion to the Colorado economy 

9 and employs over 22,000 people. 

10 Colorado has led the way on reducing 

11 carbon pollution in a collaborative, practical 

12 way because it is the right thing to do, and, 

13 again it is the Colorado way.

14 We have a history of doing what is right 

15 when it comes to our families, our economy, and 

16 our environment. We have shown other states in 

17 the nation how a combination of policies and 

18 investments and cleaner resources can cost 

19 effectively reduce carbon pollution while 

20 expanding our economy and protecting public 

21 health. 

22 With all that said, the EPA clean power 

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1 plan enables Colorado to build off our successful 

2 and proven foundation of reducing carbon. 

3 Reducing carbon pollution is an opportunity to 

4 raise the floor on all that we have already 

5 accomplished. This is a step towards leaving 

6 this earth a better place for our future 

7 generations and finally, that's the right thing 

8 to do.

9 Thank you so much.

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Swayne.

11 Mr. Van West.

12 MR. VAN WEST: Hello. EPA. Greetings 

13 from western Colorado. I'm Ryan Van West, 

14 President of Western Colorado Congress, a 

15 grassroots alliance of community groups based on 

16 Grand Junction, Colorado. Many of our 1,500 

17 members live with uranium, oil, and gas, coal, 

18 oil shale, and more as a daily menu of impacts 

19 and concerns. 

20 Our alliance is an affiliate of Western 

21 Organization of Resource Councils and I 

22 appreciate the opportunity for a few moments of 

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1 your time. First and foremost Western Colorado 

2 Congress and its members give a huge thanks to 

3 the Environment Protection Agency for its clean 

4 power plan proposal. As do millions of living 

5 and unborn.

6 This is an excellent step in the 

7 direction conservation groups find rewarding for 

8 their hard work and hopes. Not to appear 

9 ungrateful, however, considering the evermore 

10 dire signs reports, we wish the plan would be 

11 even more robust. 

12 Notwithstanding, the EPA's is to be 

13 commended for the enormous amount of work it has 

14 taken to craft these proposed rules. Not only 

15 with the individual states and/or regions would 

16 be able to reasonably achieve on their own to 

17 technically comply, but also what we could hope 

18 to be achieved given the expected winds of 

19 opposition. 

20 Everywhere across America, local 

21 communities are under assault from the energy 

22 extractive industry and having to live with 

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1 health impacts, risk management and safety 

2 concerns, welfare issues created by depreciated 

3 property values and more. 

4 The climate change science is clear and 

5 it has been for a number of years and 

6 increasingly so daily that any delay on reducing 

7 anthropogenic carbon dioxide and methane into 

8 that atmosphere will only compromise the quality 

9 of life to us and our descendents. Climate 

10 change is real, it has already harmed humans and 

11 earth biosphere systems and is today threatening 

12 the lives and livelihood of millions of people. 

13 It is becoming more and more apparent as 

14 it already has for many of our plants, flora and 

15 fauna brethren, life sustaining conditions as we 

16 now know them would only become more challenging 

17 the longer heat trapping pollutants are released 

18 into the atmosphere. 

19 Understanding that the United States is 

20 number one in per capita energy consumption,

21 might it not be a moral and practical obligation 

22 for our nation to propose steps to mitigate our 

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1 fossil fuel footprint.

2 As a practical gesture to other 

3 countries, the clean power plan would demonstrate 

4 a much stronger commitment than our country has 

5 in previous years to curb our carbon emissions.

6 As daunting as it may seem today, Western 

7 Colorado Congress remains sounds optimistic that 

8 implementation of the EPA Clean energy plan can 

9 be accomplished successfully by the proposed 

10 deadline, if not before.

11 Not only does the EPA recognize that a 

12 one-size emissions reduction standard doesn't fit 

13 all states equally, it provides states the means 

14 with which to design their individual solutions.

15 Opponents to this plan are saying, the 

16 same time-worn arguments of Armageddon, costs, 

17 job losses, and other irreparable economic 

18 impacts. These arguments were discredited before 

19 and will be again.

20 This plan is a necessary step for the 

21 improvement of public health and charts a viable 

22 pathway to continued economic vitality. At our 

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1 state level through the leadership from the 

2 governor's office, industry, and the conservation 

3 community Colorado has recently enacted this 

4 nation's most comprehensive and stringent rules 

5 for capturing fugitive methane and other volatile 

6 organic compounds from oil and gas operations. 

7 For the clean power plan to achieve its full 

8 potential, this is an absolutely essential piece 

9 to the puzzle. 

10 At a local level on Colorado's western 

11 slope, Holy Cross Energy saw and took the 

12 opportunity to produce energy from methane being 

13 vented from coal mines in the north fork valley. 

14 These kind of inventive, collaborative 

15 relationships is what will make possible meeting 

16 the clean power plans proposed emission standards 

17 and beyond. Inventive and visionary solutions 

18 have always been a part of our nation's creed. 

19 Instead of a corporate energy policy that is 

20 centered around business as usual, all of the 

21 above energy streams, and don't rock the boat, 

22 the final rule adopted by the EPA and the 

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1 subsequent plans to meet the standards adopted by 

2 the state should focus on the real solutions, 

3 energy efficiency and clean and renewable energy.

4 It is praise worthy that the EPA's 

5 proposal is mindful of the need to push forward 

6 and point a direction for citizens, policymakers 

7 and industry to engage in a conversation on how 

8 to step off the fossil fuel treadmill and truly 

9 embrace a 21 century energy policy that respects 

10 all living things.

11 Thank you. 

12 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. VanWest.

13 Please, no applause.

14 Ms. Moil.

15 MS. MOIL: Good morning. My name is 

16 Julie Moil and I am a masters prepared registered

17 nurse. I currently practice as a staff nurse at 

18 an outpatient surgery center in Boulder, Colorado 

19 and I also serve as an outreach specialist for 

20 the Healthier Hospital's Initiative, a growing 

21 movement of over 1,000 hospitals and health 

22 systems in the U.S. and Canada which are 

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1 addressing sustainability by implementing best 

2 environmental practices.

3 As a nurse, I swore an oath to care for 

4 my patients by protecting, restoring, and 

5 advocating for their health and well being. That 

6 is why I'm here today, and to support the EPA's 

7 clean power plan that will reduce carbon 

8 pollution from power plants and support renewable 

9 energy options. This proposal will substantially 

10 improve air quality and ultimately public health. 

11 Carbon pollution has direct and indirect 

12 adverse impacts on human health. Directly as we 

13 take in our 35 gallons of air via our 20 

14 respirations every day, we breath in the 

15 surrounding air and all that it contains. Today 

16 that outside air contains over 400 carbon parts 

17 per million and other toxic air pollutants like 

18 nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxide, mercury, oozone, 

19 and particulate matter. All of which are known 

20 human hazards and are linked to such diseases as 

21 asthma, lung infections and respiratory diseases 

22 as well as birth defects and neurological 

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1 disorders including diminished IQ. 

2 Children are most susceptible because 

3 their lungs are still developing and they often 

4 spend more time outdoors than adults. 

5 Indirectly carbon pollution adversely 

6 affects human health because it is the primary 

7 contributing factor of global warming and climate 

8 change. 

9 In a 2010 letter to the president and 

10 members of Congress, over 85 health 

11 organizations, including the American Academy of 

12 Pediatrics, the American Lung Association, the 

13 American Medical Association, the American Nurses 

14 Association, and the American Public Health 

15 Association, among many others, are on record 

16 stating, and I quote, "Climate change is a 

17 serious public health issue. As temperatures 

18 rise, more Americans will be exposed to 

19 conditions that can result in illness and death 

20 due to respiratory illness, heat and weather21 related stress, and disease carried by insects." 

22 These health issues are likely to have the 

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1 greatest impact on our most vulnerable 

2 communities including children, older adults, and 

3 those with serious health conditions and the most 

4 economically disadvantaged.

5 Carbon pollution is he public health 

6 threat of our time. However, currently there are 

7 no national limits on the amount of carbon 

8 pollution admitted into the atmosphere. The 

9 clean power plan would change that and is a good 

10 starting point because we all know you cannot 

11 manage what you cannot measure. 

12 And to that end I would like to share 

13 with you an idea and hope that was expressed by 

14 one of the lead authors of the U.S. Climate 

15 Assessment Report and that is that carbon parts 

16 per million as a statistic would become as 

17 popular, understood, and visible in our society 

18 as the New York Stock Exchange, Dow Jones 

19 Industrial Average, and the daily weather. Our 

20 scientists and researchers backed by the laws of 

21 math and physics inform us to the consequences 

22 of this road we are on in terms of unchecked 

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1 energy consumption and the resulting carbon 

2 pollution, a sicker, poorer, and more violent 

3 society. If we are to chart a different future, 

4 turning this tide begins with mitigating 

5 greenhouse gas emissions, namely carbon pollution 

6 from the burning of fossil fuels. 

7 Reducing carbon pollution will result in 

8 less illness and less days lost at work and 

9 school, less disability, fewer deaths, reduced 

10 hospitalizations, and other related healthcare 

11 costs which which all equate to a savings to our 

12 economy of over $1.3 trillion or 9.6 percent of 

13 GDP. 

14 Seventy-two percent of American voters 

15 support strong limits on carbon emissions. 

16 Health care providers amongst the most trusted of 

17 professionals endorse it, and it is time.

18 Thank you very much for the opportunity 

19 to share comments.

20 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Moil. You all 

21 can have a seat. 

22 Okay. Next if we could have Kierra 

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1 Hatin, Jason Small, Chris Flannigan and Sarah 

2 Probst come up and sit in the chairs by the 

3 podia. 

4 All right. Kierra Hatin and Jason Small, 

5 if you can stand at the podium. Jason is not 

6 here. Go ahead, Ms. Hatin.

7 MS. HATIN: Hello, my name is Kierra 

8 Hatin. I'm a resident here in Pueblo, Colorado. 

9 To understand why I'm here today you have to know 

10 a little bit of my personal history. 

11 My personal history starts off knowing 

12 that my dad was always sick from, you know, first 

13 grade, I remember him slamming the car door, 

14 coming in the house and he would always play ball 

15 with me and that day was different. That day was 

16 so different. He was diagnosed with something 

17 called Alpha One Antitrypsin Deficiency. That is 

18 a disease that basically prevents your lungs from 

19 cleaning themselves out. 

20 So you know, 20 years later I still had 

21 my dad, thanks to great medical care and a double 

22 lung transplant and every imaginable strange and 

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1 unusual medical problem you could deal with, with 

2 him being one of the early lung transplants. 

3 So we moved down the line and, you know, 

4 he's lucky enough, he got to see his 

5 granddaughter be born because I was a little too 

6 early. And that was pretty darn wonderful. And 

7 in 2008 passed away. I was 28 and my daughter 

8 was seven. So we lost this wonderful male figure 

9 in our family. And we lost it because his lungs 

10 couldn't clean out toxins that other people put 

11 into the environment. No matter what we did and 

12 no matter where we lived, we were not safe. 

13 I am the recipient of that same traumatic 

14 abnormality. I look down the line and I know 

15 that I have exercise, and I eat ridiculously well 

16 to the point of being truly annoying at times, 

17 and the thing is, my daughter will have to say 

18 goodbye some day too and that's because 

19 regardless of what we do, we can't protect 

20 ourselves. 

21 So I am so proud that the EPA has decided 

22 to have this carbon plan because it's a step in 

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1 the right direction. It's not far enough, but 

2 thank goodness, it is a step in the right 

3 direction. We loose that human cost all the 

4 time. And I found, you know, going back to my 

5 personal story is that my first professional job 

6 was working with a sheet metal manufacturer. And 

7 guess what they built? Coal-fired power plants. 

8 I had no idea what I was getting into. I 

9 interviewed for a job, I desperately needed one 

10 to take care of my daughter and I got one. And I 

11 found out how regulations are not enforced. And 

12 I found out how things are not measured and I 

13 found out I was less safe than I even thought. 

14 So when I go to make decisions, I go to 

15 make decisions because I don't want my daughter 

16 to have to say this to her kids. And I don't 

17 want her kids to feel the same way. 

18 You know, genetics are a lousy thing. 

19 They really are. They are the biggest blessing 

20 in the world, and the biggest problem. So 

21 sometimes there are people that I didn't do 

22 anything to ask for this, but there are people 

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1 that make choices that harm me. They make 

2 choices that caused me to watch my father die a 

3 slow and painful death. And those are the 

4 reasons that I'm here. And I'm terrified to 

5 speak in front of you, so I'm still very sorry, 

6 but I hope that you understand the depth of this 

7 problem is that we keep forgetting -- we talk 

8 about jobs, and we talk about the environment, we 

9 have stopped talking about people. We have 

10 completely ceased that conversation. 

11 I was so glad to see a nurse here before 

12 me. But we have to have that conversation. 

13 People should always be first, not things, and 

14 not money, people. So if we forget that, we are 

15 doing it wrong. 

16 (Applause.) 

17 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Hatin.

18 Is Jason Small in the room? Mr. Small, 

19 if you could come up. You're next.

20 MR. SMALL: Is that close enough? Can 

21 you hear me?

22 MS. SUTIN: Yeah and please make sure you 

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1 speak into the microphone, folks in the back 

2 sometimes have a hard time hearing. So, thank 

3 you.

4 MR. SMALL: Not a problem. Hello, my 

5 name is Jason Small. I'm here speaking on behalf 

6 of the Boiler Makers Local 11 out of East Helena, 

7 Montana and also as a tribal member from that 

8 northern Cheyenne Indiana Reservation in 

9 southeastern Montana.

10 My primary concern here is the fact that 

11 most of the jobs will be lost in my area and 

12 community if fees are set too stringent. The EPA 

13 reports that the reduction of CO2 emissions under 

14 the clean power plan is equivalent to a 30 

15 percent cut from 2005 emissions. However, the 

16 EPA's proposed rules give no credits to states 

17 that already have reduced their CO2 emissions due 

18 to market-driven forces such as increased 

19 national gas use, the retirement of older coal 

20 generating plants, and the construction of new 

21 nuclear generation.

22 Since 2005 CO2 emissions from all fossil 

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1 fuel plants have decreased by 13 percent. Many 

2 states highly dependent on coal-based generation 

3 have already achieved significant emission 

4 reductions, but still face the additional burden 

5 of further reducing the CO2 emissions on the 

6 short timetable set by the EPA's proposed rule.

7 We recognize that states will have 

8 flexibility in developing the measures to achieve 

9 the CO2 emission reduction goals called for by 

10 the green power plan. However, the stringency of 

11 state reduction goals will nonetheless be 

12 dictating how states regulate the generation and 

13 use of electricity. 

14 The EPA projects that the proposed CO2 

15 reductions would reduce U.S. coal production for 

16 lesser generation by 35 percent from 2009 levels 

17 by the year 2020. With the comparable reduction 

18 of goal-based electric generation even larger 

19 regional coal production reductions are projected 

20 by 2020. For Apple Asher, that's a 63 percent 

21 reduction, and in the west 47 percent, which is 

22 fairly substantial. 

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1 The EPA also projects that this rule will 

2 cause the loss of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal3 generated capacity by 2020. These are in 

4 addition to the 92 gigawatts of coal capacity the 

5 EPA is already projecting will shut down between 

6 2012 and 2020. Due in large part to compliance 

7 with the mercury rule which was passed in 2012. 

8 That was the mercury and air toxins rule. 

9 We believe that losing around 130 

10 gigawatts of base mode coal capacity nearly 40 

11 percent of the nation's coal generation fleet in 

12 2012, raises serious concerns about the future 

13 reliability of our electric power supplies.

14 Our reliability concerns will no doubt 

15 become even more urgent as existing base load 

16 nuclear units begin to retire upon the expiration 

17 of their already extended NRC operating licenses.

18 Our preliminary estimates of the job 

19 impacts of EPAs proposed clean rule indicate the 

20 potential loss of 52,000 permanent direct jobs by 

21 2020 in the utility, rail, and coal sectors due 

22 to power plant retirements and the loss of 

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1 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. These 

2 direct jobs are all highly skilled, high-paying 

3 jobs. Typically in rural communities without 

4 opportunities for comparable employment these 

5 impacts do not consider any of the job losses 

6 associated with the closure of plants due to the 

7 MATS rule and other factors.

8 The EPA's proposal for increasing the 

9 dispatch of natural gas from combined recycle 

10 units in addition to the 40 gigawatts of new 

11 natural gas combined cycle capacity that the EPA 

12 projects to come on line from 2020 to 2030 will 

13 lead to significant increases in natural gas 

14 prices, well above the EPA projections.

15 These price increases will be further 

16 amplified by the LNG exports, independent 

17 analysis project that utility gas demand may rise 

18 three-fold above the EPA's forecast. Consumers 

19 and energy industries will bear the brunt of 

20 these price increases. 

21 The Boilermakers, we have several 

22 recommendations about revisions to the clean 

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1 power plan.

2 Number one, the plan should provide 

3 states with a credit for prior CO2 reductions as 

4 an option towards meeting a reasonable target for 

5 reducing CO2 emissions from the electric power 

6 sector. 

7 Number two, the EPA's compliance time 

8 table is unrealistic and unachievable even with 

9 the multi-year compliance averaging toward the 

10 interim and final targets. The initial reduction 

11 program should be delayed by several years to 

12 allow states and affected sources adequate time 

13 to prepare and submit state plans and to 

14 structure and implement compliance strategies in 

15 the most flexible, least cost manner.

16 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Small, I'm fossil fuel to 

17 have to ask you to wrap up, your five minutes is 

18 up.

19 MR. SMALL: Oh, okay. 

20 Finally, we believe that the rule is a 

21 little premature since we do not know the extent 

22 to which other nations, particularly large 

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1 developing countries, will be willing to commit 

2 to a truly global program of greenhouse gas 

3 reductions.

4 We can't get anything done just going 

5 alone and expect that our actions will have any 

6 meaningful climate impact on world economy that 

7 is using more coal and other fossil fuels every 

8 day. 

9 Developing nations already emit more CO2 

10 than advanced industrial nations and the 

11 Department of Energy projects that their share of 

12 global emissions will grow steadily.

13 Thank you. 

14 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Small.

15 Chris Flannigan and Sarah Probst if you 

16 could come to the podium. And Mr. Flannigan, you 

17 will go first.

18 MR. FLANNIGAN: Good morning. My name is 

19 Chris Flannigan and I am here on behalf of Renew 

20 Missouri, a nonprofit advocacy group working to 

21 progress renewable energy and energy efficiency 

22 policies in Missouri. I am here today to have on 

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1 the record our official stance on the 

2 Environmental Protection Agency's recent proposed 

3 rule for its clean power plan.

4 We agree with the EPA on the need for the 

5 United States to significantly cut carbon 

6 emissions and focus on clean air sources of 

7 energy. We applaud the president and the EPA for 

8 taking ownership of this effort and leading the 

9 way. 

10 As stated in the recent Time Magazine 

11 article, the green revolution is here. The 

12 United States has already decreased its carbon 

13 emissions output by 17 percent of it's 2005 

14 levels in recent years. We are currently half 

15 way there to the president's intended goal of 30 

16 percent reduction by 2030. However, we also 

17 believe that the EPA's gold form, the state of 

18 Missouri, a 21 percent reduction from 2012 

19 levels, is easily achievable and should be more 

20 aggressive.

21 Quick analysis reveals that if Missouri's 

22 largest utilities simply comply with the policies 

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1 already in place, Missouri would reach compliance 

2 with its goal by 2020 or soon after. This does 

3 not even take into account Missouri's municipal 

4 utilities and rural electric cooperatives which 

5 are also very reliant on coal.

6 A more stringent standard would have a 

7 greater chance of affecting significant change in 

8 Missouri's power profile. And it's not just 

9 nonprofits like ourselves who like to see this 

10 change. It's also small businesses in Missouri 

11 and across the nation. We hear from numerous 

12 opponents that this proposed rule will hurt small 

13 businesses and small business owners do not want 

14 these rules enacted. 

15 Small Business Majority, a national small 

16 business organization dedicated to solving the 

17 biggest problems that face small businesses today 

18 conduct numerous scientific polling on a variety 

19 of issues that affect small businesses. In their 

20 polling they have found that 52 percent of small 

21 businesses support the EPA regulating carbon 

22 emissions from existing power plants that cause 

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1 climate change. This is something small business 

2 owners want, a more consistent renewable energy 

3 source for the future. 

4 Opponents of the rule will also state the 

5 United States is focused more on cheap energy. 

6 Renewable Missouri could not agree more. This is 

7 why we urge the EPA to ensure that its final rule 

8 maximizes the opportunity and incentives for 

9 states to comply by investing in energy 

10 efficiency. Energy efficiency is the cheapest 

11 investment utilities can make to meet demand and 

12 it also happens to be the lowest carbon output 

13 alternative available. 

14 First and foremost states should be 

15 capturing all cost effective energy efficiency 

16 before considering any other compliance option.

17 In addition, although natural gas is 

18 currently a cheap form of electric generation is 

19 not a long-term solution. Emerging technologies 

20 like wind and solar are rapidly decreasing in 

21 price and already employing thousands of 

22 Missourians. These technologies are improving 

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1 and with strategic investments to reach new 

2 economies of scale wind and solar will soon 

3 become the cheapest form of electric generation 

4 available. As a nation we should not waste this 

5 regulatory opportunity on technologies that will 

6 always be based on finite resources that emit 

7 large amounts of carbon into our atmosphere. 

8 Finally, renewable energy and energy 

9 efficiencies are the way of the future and the 

10 most cost effective long-term way to reduce 

11 carbon emissions. It imperative for the United 

12 States to be a world leader in renewable energy 

13 and efficiency and not wait on anyone else.

14 Thank you. 

15 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Flannigan.

16 Please no clapping. For those of you 

17 that have come in, we're asking people to not 

18 applaud and to listen quietly so that everyone 

19 feels comfortable speaking. Thank you. 

20 MS. PROBST: Good morning, my name is 

21 Sarah Probst, I am the executive director of the 

22 Interless Energy Alliance. We're a nonprofit 

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1 trade association that represents the nation's 

2 leading companies in the renewable energy 

3 industry bringing them together with the less 

4 advocacy community to extend markets for 

5 renewable energy.

6 Interless works in six states including 

7 Colorado, also Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, 

8 and Wyoming. I traveled for the hearing today 

9 from New Mexico. 

10 Interless strongly supports the EPA's 

11 draft rule for reducing carbon dioxide emissions 

12 from electric power plants under Section 111(d) 

13 of the Clean Air Act, the clean power plan.

14 Renewables are big economic drivers. For 

15 example, the American Wind Energy Association's 

16 2013 annual market report indicates that in the 

17 six states that Interless covers, the wind 

18 industry has invested over $9.5 billion by the 

19 end of 2013. And there are over 5,000 megawatts 

20 of wind capacity deployed in these states. 

21 The solar industry is also a big jobs 

22 factor. The Solar Energy Industries Association 

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1 counts over 900 solar companies throughout the 

2 value chain in the six states that Interless 

3 covers. 

4 The EPA proposal will move the United

5 States toward a cleaner, more stable environment 

6 while modernizing the electric grid and still 

7 supplying the reliable, affordable power needed 

8 for economic growth. It also provides states the 

9 flexibility that they need to reduce carbon 

10 dioxide emissions from power plants.

11 In particular, in the draft rule 

12 Interless supports incorporating the role played 

13 by zero emitting renewable energy. In setting 

14 the carbon dioxide reduction standards it targets 

15 the inclusion of interim targets to help states 

16 meet their emission reduction requirements, 

17 allowing renewable energy and energy efficiency 

18 as compliance options, the endorsement of 

19 programs like state renewable electricity 

20 standards as compliance options and allowing 

21 multistate opportunities for reducing emissions.

22 We strongly standpoint the EPA's clean 

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1 power plan and the final rule should build on 

2 this solid foundation in the draft. The EPA's 

3 assumptions in the draft rule related to 

4 renewable energy significant underestimate the 

5 amount of timely and cost-effective reductions 

6 available from these sources. The final rule can 

7 and should require emissions reductions that go 

8 further faster than those in the draft rule.

9 Relatedly, the final rule should allow 

10 periodic review of targets to reflect 

11 technological progress rewarding those advanced 

12 energy technologies. 

13 In addition, to encourage early efforts 

14 to reduce emissions and capture the economic 

15 benefits of advanced energy growth as soon as 

16 possible, EPA's final rule should give full 

17 credit to emissions reductions achieved by 

18 projects qualified under the state's initial 

19 compliance -- that are completed prior to 2020.

20 Wind, solar, and other forms of renewable 

21 energy are a widely available, affordable, 

22 reliable, and rapidly scalable source of 

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1 greenhouse gas emissions reductions. According 

2 to the U.S. Department of Energy, the average 

3 cost of wind energy has fallen 43 percent over 

4 the last four years. Renewables like wind and 

5 solar have no variable fuel costs and you can 

6 lock in a fixed price for two decades or more, 

7 protecting electricity consumers from fluctuating 

8 prices. 

9 The DOE has calculated that 20 percent 

10 wind energy by 2030 would reduce carbon emissions 

11 by 23 percent. And by 2050 the 550 million 

12 metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions reduced 

13 by wind energy would avoid $520 billion in 

14 damages due to climate change.

15 The EPA's draft rule is a critical step 

16 towards this cleaner future.

17 In conclusion Interless supports the EPA 

18 proposed rule because the rule will ensure 

19 reductions of dangerous emissions and send a 

20 strong market signal to the private sector to 

21 invest in homegrown renewable energy. The 

22 renewable energy industry that I represent is 

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1 prepared to redouble our efforts to help the 

2 nation reduce carbon dioxide emissions. 

3 Thanks so much for the opportunity to 

4 testify today on this important rule and thank 

5 you for your hard work.

6 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Probst.

7 You can all be seated, thank you. 

8 Okay. If I can have the next four 

9 speakers, Deb Theriault, Michael Bowman, Mark 

10 Brown and Shannon Anderson.

11 Ms. Theriault and Mr. Bowman, if you want 

12 to step up to the podium. And you'll go first?

13 MS. THERIAULT: I will?

14 MS. SUTIN: Yes.

15 MS. THERIAULT: Thank you for hearing my 

16 comments. I am Deb Theriault. I am a Wyoming 

17 resident and I'm a co-owner of a small renewable 

18 energy design and installation company. 

19 I support the clean power plan for the 

20 following reasons even though I may be perceived 

21 as biting the hand that feeds me. 

22 I believe that entrenched fossil fuel 

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1 industries will not change quickly enough, if at 

2 all, without government pressure. The federal 

3 government in this case is trying to look out for 

4 the health and welfare of all its citizens. 

5 Fossil fuel companies and states which benefit 

6 from severance taxes of which Wyoming is one have 

7 a much more limited scope focusing on self 

8 preservation and maintaining the financial status 

9 quo.

10 The pressure which the clean power plan 

11 exerts allows states the flexibility to choose 

12 how to reduce their greenhouse gases. This is an 

13 awesome opportunity for Wyoming to move forward 

14 toward innovative clean energy technology in a 

15 systematic way so that the reduction in coal use 

16 throughout the country does not put the state or 

17 its employees at terrible financial risk. The 

18 clean power plan has been referred to, I heard 

19 this morning, so this is not my original concept, 

20 anyway, it has been referred to as leverage which 

21 will promote innovation and creative policies.

22 This plan requires all states and their 

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1 residents to be part of the solution to climate 

2 change. Wyoming cannot take a pass on 

3 participating. 

4 Renewable energy installations have been 

5 growing exponentially in the U.S. for the last 

6 few years. Technology has improved, costs have 

7 come closer to parity and as creative minds and 

8 companies improve the utility grid system to 

9 incorporate wind and solar variable power 

10 production, it will grow even more.

11 Based on my experience, the current 

12 interest which Wyoming residents show, is great 

13 in installing distributed renewable energy. If 

14 Wyoming decided to actually promote solar and 

15 wind as part of its energy efficiency program and 

16 reducing energy demand, I know that many 

17 residents and businesses would step up.

18 In conclusion, as both a Wyoming resident 

19 and as a clean energy provider, I welcome the 

20 opportunities which the clean power plan offers 

21 for innovation and environmental improvement.

22 Thank you.

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1 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Can you spell 

2 your last name for the court reporter?

3 MS. THERIAULT: You know, I had it 

4 written down to spell. My first name is Deb, D5 e-b, last name is Theriault, T-h-e-r-i-a-u-l-t as 

6 in Tom.

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you very much.

8 MS. THERIAULT: Thank you.

9 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Bowman.

10 MR. BOWMAN: Good morning, my name is 

11 Michael Bowman and I am here testifying today as 

12 an individual and as a father who is a 

13 grandfather and is a fifth generation Coloradoan. 

14 I'm testifying today in support of the clean 

15 power plan and our national goal of reducing 

16 carbon pollution.

17 I would like to talk today about federal 

18 policy and its effects on rural America. One 

19 hundred and 28 years ago my great, great 

20 grandfather homesteaded south of Paoli, Colorado 

21 in Philips County thanks to the Homestead Act. 

22 He was carried west to Colorado by train, thanks 

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1 to the Rail Act. His great, great grandchildren 

2 and grandchildren, and great grandchildren are 

3 graduates of Colorado State University thanks to 

4 the Morrill Land Grant Act.

5 His descendents lived through the Great 

6 Depression and came to enjoy the benefits of 

7 electrification as a result of the FDR's New Deal 

8 and our National Electrification Act. 

9 In the decades that ensued, our family 

10 has enjoyed the benefits of National Farm Policy 

11 that has created unprecedented wealth to the dry 

12 prairies of eastern Colorado. 

13 In my home county of Yuma County alone, 

14 our 3,000 farmers have been recipients of over a 

15 half a billion dollars in subsidy payments over 

16 the past 12 years. 

17 Decades of federal policy have indeed 

18 created the possible, federal assets supporting 

19 entrepreneurship and creativity of my fellow man. 

20 Colorado now has a decade of proven 

21 leadership demonstrating the power, pardon the 

22 pun of good public policy. In 2004 Amendment 37 

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1 set in motion our nation's first citizen's 

2 initiated renewable portfolio standard, 10 

3 percent by 2015. Under the thoughtful leadership 

4 of then Governor, Bill Ritter, that standard has 

5 been tripled to 30 percent by 2020. Our rural 

6 electrics are now subjected to a reasonable 20 

7 percent standard, a mandate they will easily 

8 meet.

9 These current state mandates have brought 

10 about billions in investment in rural Colorado to 

11 rural communities desperately in need of 

12 development. Would didn't leave the stone age 

13 because we ran out of stones and we aren't going 

14 to leave the hydrocarbon era because we mined 

15 them to extinction. We are transitioning for 

16 several reasons. The health of our people, our 

17 atmosphere and in the west, our ever-shrinking 

18 water supplies and we are transitioning because 

19 it is our best option, in addition, economically.

20 For agriculture there's a natural 

21 marriage between meeting our conservation goals 

22 imbedded in the Farm Bill and reducing carbon 

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1 pollution. Our vast soil inventories managed for 

2 carbon can become a carbon depository. Our vast 

3 biomass solar and wind resources stand waiting to 

4 participate in this new exciting economy. A 

5 rural renaissance is possible because of this 

6 clean power plan. But it will take bold 

7 leadership in our local rural electrics would be 

8 a natural entity to fulfill this void. 

9 You will no doubt hear a lot of testimony 

10 over the next day and a half about the war on 

11 coal and the war on rural America. Let's be 

12 clear, the war on coal is a geologic war, not a 

13 political one. The only authentic war on the 

14 rule on Colorado is the one that is self15 inflicted by those of us in rural Colorado. One 

16 where we ignore the rich history of the federal 

17 and state policy that has played so eloquently in 

18 our lives. We have nothing but opportunity 

19 awaiting us with the implementation of this clean 

20 power plan. 

21 To end with today, I would like to quote 

22 the inspiring words of Maya Angelou, "Do the best 

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1 you can with what you know, and when you know 

2 better, do better." It's time to do better.

3 Thank you. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Bowman.

5 Okay. Can I have Mark Brown and Shanon 

6 Anderson come up to the podia. Mr. Brown, you 

7 will go first.

8 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you very much. 

9 My name is Mark Brown. Currently I am the 

10 president of the Board of the EEBC which is the 

11 Energy Efficiency Business Coalition here in 

12 Colorado. We are a trade organization of 

13 contractors, distributors, manufacturers reps and 

14 manufacturer that sell, provide, and install high 

15 efficiency equipment in the construction 

16 industry. So that would affect insulation, 

17 windows for the shell of buildings and homes, 

18 lighting and heating and air conditioning.

19 My role here today is to stress the 

20 ability of the energy efficiency industry in the 

21 role it can and should play if this EPA ruling 

22 and the goals of the EPA do come about.

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1 Energy efficiency -- the energy 

2 efficiency industry has been implemented 

3 throughout the country by many utilities on 

4 programs to reduce demand for demand side 

5 management issues that we have faced in the past 

6 as well as usage reduction which helps in the 

7 carbon emissions issue that we're looking at 

8 here. 

9 Energy efficiency in the last 15 years 

10 during this scenario has proven to be a very 

11 cost-effective measure and a very quick measure 

12 of reducing carbon emissions. The energy 

13 efficiency rebate programs typically drive the 

14 behavior typically have a cost effectiveness of 

15 about 30 percent -- 30 to 35 percent of that of 

16 all other measures that can reduce the demand and 

17 the carbon emissions of power plants. 

18 Energy efficiency is not only cost 

19 effective, but it is immediate. You know, I had 

20 an example here in the heating and air 

21 conditioning side of it, so, we're looking at 

22 replacing currently two 500-ton chillers that 

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1 will reduce 750,000 KWH annually, each chiller, 

2 so a million and a half, okay, annually as 

3 opposed to what we're taking out right now.

4 The other aspect of energy efficiency is 

5 it is good for the consumer.

6 Okay. Oftentimes what we're talking 

7 about today and some of the people that may be 

8 opposed to this are concerned about the stress it 

9 may put on the bill payers for the utilities, our 

10 programs actually save the bill payers, the 

11 people implementing the programs will actually 

12 save. Yes, the bill rate may go up, but we 

13 always stress that the usage and the rate makes 

14 up the actual payment that the end-user has to 

15 pay. And in our measures, the rate may go up a 

16 little to counter this action, but the usage will 

17 come down when you implement energy efficiency 

18 strategies.

19 Also, I've heard that it can reduce jobs, 

20 but in the energy efficiency industry it also 

21 creates jobs. These contractors, these 

22 manufacturers, they all basically, since 

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1 Colorado, implemented in 2008 the legislation for 

2 the reduction of demand in usage that the 

3 governor put into place. We have actually 

4 increased jobs -- I believe the number is 7,000 

5 jobs, okay -- have been added to the Colorado 

6 economy by implementing this utility rebate 

7 program -- two rebate programs by the two major 

8 utilities here in the state. 

9 So, it also provides jobs. It also 

10 increases revenue of companies and organizations 

11 all the way up to the manufacturing side, all the 

12 way down to the contracting side, because instead 

13 of installing base-priced product, we're able to 

14 install higher-priced products increasing revenue 

15 which helps businesses. It also increases tax 

16 revenue for states and counties and governments. 

17 So it is one of the truly win/win/win scenarios 

18 and I'm here today to stress the importance of 

19 energy efficiency being included in your goals 

20 for your emission reduction.

21 One of our fellow nonprofit organizations 

22 SWEEP, Southwest Energy Efficiency Project, they 

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1 have done an analysis of the Colorado plan that 

2 was implemented in 2008 ends in 2020, okay. So 

3 basically what they've come up with, we have 

4 saved customers nearly $5 billion in their 

5 utility bills so far, or we will through 2020. 

6 We will cut electrical use by 22 percent by 2020. 

7 We support the 7,000 new jobs that I mentioned a 

8 little bit earlier, and we reduced CO2 emissions 

9 by 5.4 million metric tons by 2020 and that's all 

10 from the energy efficiency programs that were 

11 implemented through that legislation in 2008.

12 Thank you very much for your time.

13 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

14 Ms. Anderson.

15 MS. ANDERSON: Good morning. My name is 

16 Shannon Anderson, that's Anderson with an -o-n. 

17 And I work for the Powder River Basin Resource 

18 Council. We are a Wyoming organization that 

19 advocates for a responsible development of our 

20 state's natural resources. Our members are land 

21 owners, sportsmen, teachers, business owners, and 

22 other citizens from across the state. I'm here 

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1 today speaking on their behalf. 

2 For too long Wyomingites have borne the 

3 impacts of coal mining and burning in our state. 

4 Our aquifers have been depleted, our lands torn 

5 apart, and our air dirtied. But now coal is 

6 impacting people around the world as the largest 

7 source of climate change.

8 Our numbers in Wyoming stand in 

9 solidarity with communities across the glove in 

10 support of our government's actions to limit 

11 carbon pollution and prevent catastrophic climate 

12 change. 

13 EPA's proposed plan is unprecedented and 

14 unparalleled and science tells us we need it now

15 more than ever. EPA's plan is workable, 

16 flexible, and will meet the needs of Wyoming 

17 utilities and policymakers. We appreciate that 

18 EPA took into account state needs and resource 

19 mixes in setting standards for carbon reduction.

20 EPA's proposed standard for Wyoming, a 

21 mere 19 percent reduction, will be easy to 

22 achieve based on our analysis of our resource mix 

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1 currently and what it could be in the future. If 

2 anything, Wyoming standard is not strong enough.

3 EPA's proposed plan will help our state 

4 transition from polluting and inefficient energy 

5 sources of the past to clean efficient energy 

6 sources of the present and the future. Thee is 

7 ample time for compliance and our members stand 

8 ready to help our state make the needed 

9 transition.

10 Our organization will be submitting 

11 detailed written comments to EPA later on during 

12 the comment period on the technical aspects of 

13 the plan. But we felt it was important for me to 

14 be here today to express our support for the 

15 Agency's action to reduce carbon pollution 

16 through your clean power plan.

17 Thank you for your time and attention and 

18 for allowing the public to be here to speak to 

19 you today. We appreciate that EPA likes the 

20 public involvement and welcomes it in your 

21 decisionmaking process on this important part of 

22 our organization's mission to involve citizens in 

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1 decisionmaking. So we do appreciate that.

2 We hope that you move swiftly to finalize 

3 these new standards so that they can be 

4 implemented in states like Wyoming, states that 

5 just may need a little policy push to get on the 

6 right path.

7 So, thank you. 

8 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Anderson. 

9 You can all be seated.

10 Okay. If I can have the next four 

11 speakers come up to the seats. Mary Frontczak, 

12 Wes Wilson, Tim Gaudette, and Christina Gosnel.

13 And as a reminder, when you come up to 

14 the podium if you can spell your name for the 

15 court reporter, we would appreciate it.

16 So if I can have Ms. Frontczak and Mr. 

17 Wilson. Ms. Frontczak you will go first.

18 MS. FRONTCZAK: Can you hear me?

19 MS. SUTIN: Yes.

20 MS. FRONTCZAK: My name is Mary F-r --

21 oh, I'm sorry.

22 (Pause.) 

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1 MS. SUTIN: Okay. Go ahead. 

2 MS. FRONTCZAK: Good morning. My name is 

3 Mary Frontczak, that's F-r-o-n-t-c-z-a-k. I gave 

4 up Flynn for that name when I got married, it was 

5 the ultimate sign of love. I've got it earlier.

6 I am the senior vice president and 

7 general counsel for Peabody Energy America's 

8 Business Unit. And thank you very much for the 

9 opportunity to speak here today as well as the 

10 opportunity to submit testimony. 

11 Using coal for electricity enables people 

12 to live longer and live better. It drives the 

13 lowest U.S. electricity costs for any major fuel. 

14 Peabody has a profound disagreement with 

15 the EPA on the approach on carbon under the Clean 

16 Air Act. We are opposed to any proposal that 

17 hurts electricity consumers, has no material 

18 benefit under climate theory, and is outside the 

19 bounds of law. This proposal must be withdrawn. 

20 Access to clean, affordable energy is 

21 especially important now when we have 115 million 

22 Americans who are eligible for energy assistance, 

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1 48 million Americans live in poverty. This past 

2 week the Washington Post put a face on exactly 

3 that story. They talked about Sharon Garcia. 

4 She is a resident of Pueblo, Colorado, a single 

5 mother of five. And she talked about her daily 

6 struggle to meet her rising energy costs in 

7 Colorado. They actually relayed a jarring 

8 conversation between Ms. Garcia and her son 

9 Mariono. Ms. Garcia said, and I want to quote to 

10 make sure I don't get this wrong, "Why do you we 

11 need to turn the lights off?" She said that to 

12 her son who said, "Because otherwise there's no 

13 money. And when there's no money," he said, "you 

14 can't feed us." No matter how deep she rations 

15 energy, no matter how much she cuts costs, she 

16 can't keep up with her rising electricity prices.

17 The article cited a major cause of the 

18 state's increase in energy costs to be attributed 

19 to the shutdown of coal plants and its aggressive 

20 turn to renewables. 

21 But perhaps the most extreme and 

22 disturbing example is the state of California 

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1 which EPA is lauding as an example. California 

2 has exacerbated energy and equality and turned 

3 away business based on high renewable mandates 

4 and energy taxes. In California the residents 

5 pay 40 percent more than the national average. 

6 One in -- sorry, I meant three in one; the jobs 

7 and businesses are leaving the the state of 

8 Colorado at a ratio of three to one. And 7,000 

9 manufacturing jobs have left since 2000. Is this 

10 really the model we want? 

11 EPA's proposal is symbolic at best 

12 because it's not going to have any significant 

13 benefit under climate theory. An entire shutdown 

14 of America's coal fleet, which would be more than 

15 what's proposed here, would result in a one 20th 

16 of one degree change in the climate. 

17 EPA also shows a deep misunderstanding 

18 about the relationship of states and federal 

19 government under the Clean Air Act. The proposal 

20 is outside the bounds of law and if finalized we 

21 expect to be heavily litigated. 

22 We've already seen widespread opposition 

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1 by actions in the people's house, in the U.S. 

2 Senate, and state legislative actions to name a 

3 few. In mid-July the House Appropriations 

4 Committee passed the spending bill prohibiting 

5 EPA from using funds for carbon standards. In 

6 March the House passed Whitfield Management to 

7 repeal the proposed new source rule and stop 

8 111(d) without congressional approval. 

9 We've also seen 41 Republican Senators 

10 ask the EPA to withdraw the rule and seven 

11 Democratic Senators have also written the 

12 president about new plan standards. Over 20 

13 states have passed legislation and resolutions 

14 stating greenhouse gas emissions may only be 

15 regulated on a plant-by-plant basis, inside the 

16 fence. And citizen and business groups are also 

17 activating led by the Partnership for a Better 

18 Energy Future. It's the business coalition that 

19 represents 80 percent of the U.S. economy.

20 Peabody proposes a better path, calls for 

21 investing efficiency improvements, deploying 

22 advanced super critical coal plants, and 

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1 supporting greater research and development into 

2 the next generation technical including carbon 

3 capture and storage. 

4 More and more nations have pushed back 

5 against flawed carbon policies. We just saw them 

6 in Australia that they turned away their carbon 

7 tax.

8 Australia's prime minister -- I will be 

9 wrapping up -- called the -- may I just finish 

10 about Australia.

11 Australia's prime minister called the 

12 former carbon tax, quote, "Useless destructive 

13 tax which damaged jobs, hurt families, cost of 

14 living, and didn't actually help the 

15 environment." 

16 Japan has recently said it's going to 

17 step up to the port for coal-fueled power plants 

18 domestically and overseas because it would rather 

19 break a promise than its economy. 

20 We must reject the administration's --

21 MS. SUTIN: Ms. Frontczak, I need you to 

22 wrap up.

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1 MS. FRONTCZAK: Okay. Harmful proposal 

2 which this will be -- thank you -- and put in 

3 place a technology path for long-term improvement 

4 in carbon emissions. It's a far better path for 

5 clean, secure energy future.

6 Thank you. My husband would love to have 

7 one of those at our house to get me to stop.

8 (Laughter.) 

9 MS. SUTIN: Mr. Wilson.

10 MR. WILSON: Thank you. I'm Wes Wilson, 

11 W-e-s W-i-l-s-o-n. And a former employee of the 

12 EPA Region 8. Hi Laura and Elyana. 

13 I worked 37 years here at the EPA. In 

14 2004 I was a whistleblower against EPA's faulty 

15 report on hydraulic fracking and its risks. 

16 You know, right now we have a lot of ads 

17 in Colorado supporting natural gas. In fact, one 

18 of them leads off with Governor Romer, former 

19 Governor Romer saying, "The additional use of 

20 natural gas will reduce our footprint." He's 

21 wrong and EPA is wrong unless it corrects this 

22 rule.

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1 We've got to adopt a policy of "first do 

2 no harm" by giving credit for apparent greenhouse 

3 gas reduction when a utility switches from coal 

4 to natural gas. The agency has to make sure it 

5 gets the science right and the leak rate down.

6 You two women can carry this forward. We 

7 can easily update, readily, the dated factor that 

8 EPA is using with respect to methane heat 

9 capturing potential to carbon. 

10 EPA is using information of 20 -- a 

11 factor of 20 over a 100-year period. That 

12 information dates from 1996. EPA had plenty of 

13 opportunities to update this since then, and it 

14 must do so now. 

15 If you read the IPCC report from November 

16 13, you clearly see a statement from the 

17 scientists, a 100-year factor is no basis for a 

18 scientific judgment of the relative heat 

19 retention of methane to CO2. Its charts show 

20 unequivocally, based on indisputable science, 

21 that methane traps at the rate of 86 times over a 

22 20 year period. And I think more importantly 

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1 from the planet's heat budget point of view, you 

2 ought to consider the ten-year factor of 125. 

3 So, first, get the math right and show 

4 your math. The public needs to know if there is 

5 a shift, as there will be, from coal to natural 

6 gas, that it truly results in a benefit in 

7 greenhouse gas emissions.

8 The leak rate is wrong as well. EPA uses 

9 -- estimates that nationally 2.5 percent of 

10 methane produced is leaked into the atmosphere; 

11 1.6 of that is coming from expiration production 

12 in the field, another .9 percent coming from 

13 compression and distribution. That's belied by 

14 NOAA atmospheric measurements here in Colorado. 

15 A year and a half ago when NOAA put up 

16 its instruments to measure this, they found 4 

17 percent leak rate in Webb County, Colorado, 9 

18 percent leak rate in the basin of Utah, both in 

19 Region 8. And then they found 18 percent in the 

20 Los Angeles basin.

21 It's pretty clear that the emission rate 

22 is higher based on those ambient numbers rather 

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1 than EPAs bottom up. 

2 This was further supported in a series of 

3 articles by two Cornell professors, Dr. Tony 

4 Agrafia (ph) and Dr. Robert Howorth (ph) of 

5 Cornell which put together the same math. Well, 

6 EPA must show its math. You can't just assume 

7 that because natural gas when it's burned is 

8 roughly half percent -- 50 percent of the 

9 greenhouse gas emissions associated with coal, 

10 you have to show the lifecycle costs.

11 So here's how the rule could be 

12 corrected. Update that science, show the math on 

13 what leak rate would be needed to achieve your 

14 expectation that burning natural gas -- actually 

15 reduces greenhouse gases. 

16 So only plants that can show expiration 

17 and production plus transmission to the plan that 

18 have a leak rate of less than a half percent 

19 should be approved as actually meeting your 

20 intended goal of this plan.

21 Since the Environmental Defense Fund and 

22 the University of Texas have shown with proper 

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1 operation that it is possible it is achievable. 

2 And, incidentally, the Inspector General just 

3 this last week encouraged EPA to move forward 

4 with methane regulations with respect to the 

5 pipeline and distribution aspects of it.

6 Get this science right, EPA. First do no 

7 harm. Thank you. 

8 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

9 Next Tim Gaudette and Christina Gosnell.

10 Mr. Gaudette, you can go first.

11 MR. GAUDETTE: Okay. Thank you very 

12 much. G-a-u-d-e-t-t-e. Good morning and thank 

13 you for having me here to discuss the importance 

14 of strong carbon emission standards to small 

15 businesses. My name is Tim Gaudette, and I'm a 

16 Colorado Outreach Manager for Small Business 

17 Majority. 

18 Small Business Majority is a nonprofit, 

19 nonpartisan, small business organization founded 

20 and run by small business owners and we're 

21 focused on solving the biggest problems facing 

22 small businesses today. We represent 28 million 

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1 Americans who are self employed or own businesses 

2 up to 100 employees. Our organization uses 

3 scientific opinion and economic research and we 

4 work with our network of more than 25,000 small 

5 business owners who understand and represent the 

6 interests of the small business community. 

7 Small business owners are doing 

8 everything they can to fortify their businesses 

9 on our slowly recovering economy. They are 

10 innovative and in order to help their businesses 

11 thrive entrepreneurs are constantly looking for 

12 ways to cut costs and identify new business 

13 opportunities. 

14 The new carbon emission standards 

15 proposed by the EPA will do both which is why the 

16 majority of entrepreneurs support this rule. 

17 Small Business Majority polled a random sample of 

18 small business owners across the country and 

19 found 52 percent support the EPA regulating 

20 carbon emissions from existing power plants that 

21 cause climate change and 76 percent are in favor 

22 of requiring new power plants to reduce carbon 

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1 pollution.

2 What's more, the vast majority believes 

3 in investing in clean energy can stimulate the 

4 economy and create jobs now. These small 

5 business owners run the gamut of industries and 

6 political identification as well with 37 percent 

7 identifying as Republican or conservative, 30 

8 percent as Democrat or liberal, and 33 percent as 

9 Independent or other. 

10 Small employers support strong, clean 

11 energy standards because they realize carbon 

12 pollution is linked to climate change and extreme 

13 weather. More and more extreme weather has been 

14 hitting small employers where it hurts most. Our 

15 poll revealed climate change and extreme weather 

16 events are causing real financial hardships for 

17 small employers. So much so that the majority of 

18 entrepreneurs affected by an extreme weather 

19 event have experienced a significant financial 

20 impact to their companies and some even had to 

21 lay off their employees.

22 Research shows small business is 

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1 particularly at risk from the effects of climate 

2 change the extreme weather events it causes. In 

3 fact, an estimated 25 percent of small to mid4 size businesses do not reopen following a major 

5 disaster. Most small businesses have a single 

6 branch or location which makes them vulnerable to 

7 a loss compared to larger businesses that have 

8 backup resources at other facilities or 

9 locations. 

10 As a result, small businesses are more 

11 heavily impacted by power outages, the absence of 

12 employees, supply chain interruptions, rising 

13 insurance costs, and more. 

14 In fact, our poll found that the vast 

15 majority of respondents have had to close their 

16 business for up to a week after an extreme 

17 weather event and some owners say they've had to 

18 close for as long as 30 days if they did reopen. 

19 It should come then as no surprise then that 57 

20 percent of small businesses across the country 

21 who need climate change in extreme weather events 

22 like Hurricane Sandy are an urgent problem that 

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1 can disrupt the economy and harm small 

2 businesses. 

3 Along with helping to combat climate 

4 change, stronger clean energy standards can help 

5 create new business opportunities for small 

6 businesses. Entrepreneurs believe allowing the 

7 EPA to regulate harmful carbon emissions could 

8 help stabilize the market and set clear goals for 

9 our nation's future in the clean energy economy.

10 Small businesses, the majority of which 

11 are unaffected by the standards themselves will 

12 benefit as they supply the services and products 

13 to help those who do have to meet them. 

14 Entrepreneurs can confidently innovate and create 

15 jobs knowing that the future would hold long-term 

16 financial returns resulting from these new 

17 standards.

18 Our poll numbers prove that small 

19 business owners are committed to this type of 

20 future. Eighty-seven percent of small business 

21 owners said that improving innovation and energy 

22 efficiency are good ways to increase prosperity 

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1 for small businesses.

2 As our polling shows, small businesses 

3 believe in a clean energy economy that includes 

4 robust clean energy standards is rife with 

5 economic possibilities. Entrepreneurs understand 

6 clean energy can stimulate the economy and create 

7 new jobs now and believe that we should be 

8 investing in this area to spur growth. 

9 Despite strong small business support, 

10 efforts to set standards reducing carbon 

11 emissions have been blocked over and over. That 

12 comes at the expense of our economic future. 

13 Small businesses make up the back bone of 

14 our state's economy. For every one large 

15 business in Colorado there are 179 small 

16 businesses diligently working to reenergize the 

17 economy. These entrepreneurs are doing 

18 everything they can to hire, grow, and move their 

19 businesses forward. As part of these efforts 

20 they want pragmatic, innovative policies that 

21 help guide them into a modern clean energy 

22 economy and that will mitigate extreme weather 

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1 events brought about by climate change which can 

2 hurt their businesses. This includes 

3 strengthening EPA standards of carbon emissions 

4 that get into the air from power plants. It's 

5 important that EPA know its proposal to limit 

6 carbon emissions for existing power plants has 

7 won small business' support. 

8 Thank you. 

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Gaudette.

10 Ms. Gosnell.

11 MS. GOSNELL: I'm Christina Gosnell, it's 

12 G-o-s-n-e-l-l. I work for a small organization 

13 called Clean Energy Action and we try to use 

14 citizen power to accelerate the transition to 

15 clean energy economy in Colorado. And I want to 

16 thank you for your leadership and authority to 

17 establish these plans.

18 It's clear that there are real tangible 

19 risks to climate change. And I believe that the 

20 U.S. really has the moral authority to be leaders 

21 in this arena. 

22 We are responsible for about 20 percent 

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1 of the local greenhouse gas emissions even though 

2 we're only 4 percent of of the global population. 

3 And here in the U.S. we have more 

4 resources to mitigate and adapt to the changes 

5 that will come with climate change while our 

6 friends in the communities across the world may 

7 or may not have those resources, and may or may 

8 not have contributed as much to the problem. 

9 Although this is clearly a global 

10 problem, we have a moral authority imperative to 

11 be leaders in this issue. So I really urge you 

12 to make these rules as strong as possible. 

13 And fortunately we are in a time 

14 technologically in which a win for environmental 

15 quality does not have to mean a lose for our 

16 economy. As with many regulations, industries 

17 will probably push back saying that complying 

18 isn't possible until it is necessary. And then 

19 it will become pretty easy. 

20 The most recent Lawrence Berkeley Labs 

21 wind technical market report compiled national 

22 averages for wind power purchasing agreements and 

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1 they came in at about just over $40 per megawatt 

2 hour which is actually below just the fuel costs 

3 alone for some combined natural gas plants.

4 So more renewable energy in the future 

5 will mean more stable prices and potentially less 

6 costly prices for basic rate payers in the 

7 future.

8 And I really want to encourage states to 

9 think creatively in how they will implement these 

10 regulations. Colorado has clearly already made 

11 large commitments to reducing our greenhouse gas 

12 emissions with our renewable energy standard and 

13 energy efficiency goals and I really hope that 

14 states are encouraged to let the outstanding 

15 innovation in the energy sector attempt to 

16 overcome the inertia in our largely fossil fuel 

17 based electricity supply.

18 Even in this state our regulated 

19 monopolies have no mechanism for allowing new 

20 generations to compete against the current 

21 generation on the system and that means that we 

22 have coal plants and natural gas plants on a 

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1 system that are far less economical than the wind 

2 and solar that being bid to our utilities. And 

3 that's a lose for the climate and a lose for the 

4 rate payers. 

5 Renewables and energy efficiency are 

6 already competitive in the market without these 

7 regulations, without including things like the 

8 central cost of carbon or the added benefits to 

9 not being reliant on risky volatile fuel costs. 

10 If we are going to be successful in 

11 mitigating climate, we need to displace coal and 

12 natural gas in the system today which I think 

13 that these regulations will go a long way to 

14 doing that. 

15 So thanks again for all your leadership 

16 and using the authority that the EPA does have to 

17 take these necessary, although not sufficient, 

18 regulations to reduce our greenhouse gas 

19 emissions for our climate and for future 

20 generations. 

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Gosnell. 

22 You can all be seated. 

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1 If I can have Marina Webber and Laurie

2 Dameron.

3 (Pause.) 

4 MS. SUTIN: I need Marina Webber to speak 

5 first. 

6 MS. DAMERON: Did you say Laurie Dameron?

7 MS. SUTIN: Yes. Why doesn't Marina 

8 speak and then the kids can do --

9 (Pause.) 

10 MS. SUTIN: All right. Are you ready, 

11 Ms. Webber?

12 MS. WEBBER: Yeah.

13 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead. 

14 MS. WEBBER: I'm Marina and I'm 11 years 

15 old. This is Joanne, Ciella, and Zubin and 

16 Marino. We cited the global warming express 

17 because we were concerned about climate change 

18 issues. We have wrote a book and now we are 

19 learning about how to do speeches and work with 

20 our government around how to make changes in our 

21 city, state, and country.

22 We are mostly concerned about how fast 

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1 fossil fuels are adding to global warming. Every 

2 summer temperatures climb and fires are more 

3 frequent and more intense.

4 Most summers I can't seem to sleep 

5 because of how hot it is. There is ash falling 

6 out of the sky from the fires which means my 

7 allergies grow more intense. And think about our 

8 animals. What can we do to help them? They will 

9 burn and die because of the fires we cause as 

10 humans. Even if we stopped using coal, natural 

11 gas, and oil right now, it would take at least 20 

12 more years for climate change to slow down.

13 We have caused enough trouble already on 

14 this earth, so we should be the ones to stop it. 

15 No one told me to say this. I am saying this 

16 because I care about our climate and about my 

17 future life. My wish is that you all consider 

18 what we are doing to our climate. 

19 We have a short song for you to enjoy. 

20 (Children sing a song.)

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you very much. 

22 Okay. Are you ready?

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1 MS. DAMERON: Yes.

2 MS. SUTIN: Miss -- is it Dameron?

3 MS. DAMERON: Yes. Just remember Dam 

4 moron. 

5 MS. SUTIN: If you could spell your name?

6 MS. DAMERON: Yes, Laurie, L-a-u-r-i-e, 

7 Dameron, D-a-m-e-r-o-n. And I'm a professional 

8 musician and I have a -- so nice to see you again 

9 -- a presentation -- a 60-minute presentation. 

10 It's a multi-media thing on environment issues 

11 called, "What Can I Do?" 

12 So it's way past time that we need to 

13 start treating our earth like a spaceship way out 

14 in space. We've only got so much air, so much 

15 water, so many resources basically that's earth. 

16 We've got a limited amount of resources that are 

17 not going to be resupplied. And that's basically 

18 spaceship earth and that was a term coined by 

19 Buckminster Fuller in 1952 a long time ago. 

20 But so environmentalists have been trying 

21 to take care of this beautiful precious planet 

22 that we live on since the beginning of times, the 

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1 beginning of civilization. When are we going to 

2 listen to them?

3 You know, I feel a lot of this all has to 

4 do with money, greed. These corporations get so 

5 big that their main concern is making money even 

6 if it disregards our plant and it's killing our 

7 animals and even murdering our human beings.

8 We need to stop thinking how much money 

9 we can make now, today, and start thinking about 

10 our children's future, these kids that were just 

11 up here, the future of our planet. 

12 I'm from Boulder and we've got all these 

13 brilliant scientists in Boulder, M. Carnoa, yet 

14 we only have a diversion rate of 35 percent in 

15 Boulder. I think we can do better. 

16 The whole Highway 36 thing, it's just 

17 astounding. Instead of putting a light rail, 

18 they've put an extra lane to encourage more cars. 

19 Why? Because there's a lot of money to be made 

20 with oil and gas.

21 But, I don't want to be all negative 

22 here. There are a lot of good things happening. 

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1 Plastic bags are being banned more and more by 

2 more cities in the country. Even that smaller 

3 size of plastic water bottles, last year a town 

4 in Massachusetts banned them, and just about a 

5 month and a half ago San Francisco banned the 

6 small size of plastic water bottles.

7 And there's a lot of great innovative 

8 things going on. This thing, I'm really excited 

9 -- waste management, one of the largest waste 

10 management companies in the country is doing a 

11 lot of experimenting with the methane capture. 

12 There is a town in Massachusetts -- I'm sorry, I 

13 don't know the name -- that is totally powered on 

14 the methane that they captured from the landfill. 

15 I think this methane thing, you know, we have --

16 of course we've got tons of landfills. And so 

17 that's a lot of energy we could be capturing and 

18 using. 

19 And of course, the sun, and God, I wanted 

20 quote Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I could not find 

21 -- he wrote an editorial in the Boulder Daily 

22 Camera a couple years ago saying about in one day 

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1 the sun, you know, heats up -- produces more 

2 energy than -- I forget what he said -- than what 

3 we do in a city with the electricity. But so the 

4 sun, you know, we're going to be here -- well, 

5 maybe not, but, you know, the sun -- it's a big 

6 resource, it's there for us. And, of course, the 

7 other great thing that's going on is the clean 

8 power plan that the EPA is doing and I really, 

9 really hope that that goes through. 

10 And I did want to mention one other 

11 thing. I grew up in south of Cleveland, Berea, 

12 Ohio in the 1960s when I was a little girl where 

13 the Cuyahoga River used to catch on fire and in 

14 1969 the 13th time it caught on fire, it 

15 attracted Time Magazine which was great because 

16 that spurred the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, 

17 and the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. 

18 And, mind you, that was under the Nixon 

19 Administration, so Tricky Dick did some really 

20 great things. But I really wish that the EPA 

21 would be even stronger and stand up against the 

22 big money, the big -- yeah. 

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1 But thank you for putting this plan in 

2 action and I hope it goes through. Thank you so 

3 very much.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Dameron.

5 Can I have Ken Connell and Rhonda Lopez. 

6 Is it Connell? 

7 MR. CONNELL: It is Connell. Thank you. 

8 We lost the o in the mud somewhere in a shanty 

9 along the way.

10 MS. SUTIN: If you could spell your name 

11 for the record before you start, that would be 

12 great.

13 MR. CONNELL: Ken is K-e-n, Connell, is 

14 C-o-n-n-e-l-l. And I'm pleased to be here. I 

15 thank you for coming to Denver. I don't think I 

16 would be able to testify if you were elsewhere.

17 In addressing you today, I would like to 

18 comment on the carbon pollution standards clean 

19 power plan proposed rule in the context of EPA's 

20 mission from EPAs current website.

21 The mission of EPA is to protect human 

22 health and the environment. A variant of the 

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1 EPA's mission also appears on a USA government 

2 site. It states, "The Environment Protection 

3 Agency with a mission to protect people and the 

4 environment from significant health risks 

5 sponsors and conducts research and develops and 

6 enforces environmental regulations." 

7 I reside in Thornton, Colorado. I'm a 

8 retired organizational psychologist who works pro 

9 bono with many nonprofit human rights and 

10 advocacy organizations. Increasingly I discover 

11 that my personal mission is leading me to focus 

12 more and more on how to protect people in the 

13 environment from significant health risks. 

14 Especially those significant health risks that 

15 pose growing large-scale threats to the survival 

16 in we humans and the many other species of our 

17 planet and our ecosystems.

18 I recently noticed that my mission and 

19 EPA's mission share a great deal of commonality. 

20 So that's why I asked for the five minutes to 

21 have my say today.

22 Right now the most important five minutes 

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1 of my life. I'm dedicating my comments to my 

2 children and grandchildren and all the people of 

3 our nation and this world who are already reaping 

4 what we have sown and will continue to sow and 

5 they will continue to reap whether or not we 

6 continue to sow. Knowing that what we put up in 

7 that air lasts for centuries and it accumulates.

8 My personal comments in this case on the 

9 rule noting that the EPA is spot on its mission 

10 with this work and I commend you. First ever, we 

11 need it. We need more. I'm offering my comments 

12 specifically in behalf of our nearly 100,000 

13 moveon.org Colorado members and Moveon's total 

14 membership of eight million throughout our 

15 nation.

16 I'd like to pose a question. Neil 

17 Armstrong, did he or didn't he say, "Ah" I'm 

18 referring to Wikipedia as he stepped out onto our 

19 moon surface some 45 years ago, "That's one small 

20 small step for" was there an "ah" "man" -- "one 

21 giant leap for mankind" July 21 of '69. And now 

22 the EPA is being asked to take its one small step 

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1 for man, woman, child, one giant leap for 

2 mankind.

3 Ensuring that the proposed rule is not 

4 diluted, not delayed, not discarded, that is what 

5 is now needed from EPA. 

6 Neil Armstrong had to get to the moon to 

7 take his vital step for man in order to achieve 

8 the one giant leap for mankind. 

9 EPA, the Obama administration, and the 

10 people of America must do no less. Because most 

11 of the vital gains in carbon reduction goals 

12 under the rule -- proposed rule relative to 2005 

13 levels are expected by EPA to be accomplished by 

14 2020, 27 percent of the 30 percent and 2025, 29 

15 percent. The EPA is urged to continue developing 

16 expanded rules for 2020 and 2025. We need to 

17 build on the momentum in the first six years of 

18 accomplishment. 

19 A couple of other comments I would like 

20 to make. You've come to the healthiest state in 

21 the nation according to Vermont and Minnesota 

22 wannabe. Colorado and its foundations and its 

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1 government leadership want to move up the ladder 

2 from about eight to first. That tells me that 

3 you're coming into an environment, when you're in 

4 Colorado, and under the state's lead that is 

5 highly motivated to move beyond what we've 

6 already accomplished and plan to accomplish; 

7 sooner, not later.

8 Henry Paulson, Rubin, former Treasury 

9 Secretaries are now on clear record, pay up now, 

10 you won't be able to pay later, and whatever you 

11 pay up now will be advantageous and beneficial.

12 So with that comment, I'd like to see us 

13 moving aggressively forward on the sciences and 

14 policies required for our human survival, and 

15 that which makes all life on earth our treasure 

16 and tribute to the universe. Thank you. 

17 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Connell.

18 MR. CONNELL: I'd like to say my 

19 inspiration comes from Experimenting on a Small 

20 Planet: A Scholarly Entertainment by William W. 

21 Hay, if this doesn't look entertaining, that's 

22 size, not substance that you're responding to. 

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1 Thank you. 

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

3 MS. LOPEZ: Hello.

4 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead, Ms. Lopez, thank 

5 you. 

6 MS. LOPEZ: I'm 52 years old and I've had 

7 colon cancer and breast cancer twice. I've had 

8 genetic testing and it was negative. So I asked 

9 the question, why me? 

10 I grew up along the Texas Gulf Coast. I 

11 ran barefoot through cotton fields where the crop 

12 dusters had just dropped their loads of 

13 pesticides. I played in the warm gulf waves 

14 where you couldn't even see your feet in two feet 

15 of water because it was so dirty. And for 47 

16 years I breathed the air in a state that's the 

17 number one coal burner in the nation and also the 

18 state that's number one in carbon dioxide 

19 emissions.

20 My mother died a few years ago. She was 

21 68, and beautiful and kind. Mesothelioma gave 

22 her two years of surgeries, suffering, and then 

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1 death. Asbestos exposure causes mesothelioma and 

2 it is a terrible cancer suffered by many coal 

3 miners. 

4 My young and beautiful mother died with 

5 five different tubes coming out of her body. How 

6 much illness and suffering will we accept before 

7 we say no to the desecration of our environment? 

8 Just a second. 

9 Because there's absolutely no doubt that 

10 the poisons we put into the air and the water 

11 make us sick. And, I mean, why aren't we jumping 

12 up and down and screaming about this? Don't we 

13 get it?

14 And the biggest source of this 

15 environmental disaster is coal. Coal means 

16 pollution from the time it's mined to the time 

17 it's burned. Coal is the biggest air polluter in 

18 our country. It produces smog and acid rain and 

19 it a major contributor to global warming. Would 

20 we knowingly give our children contaminated food 

21 to eat? Well, how is that different from giving 

22 them dirty air to breath?

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1 Do we want to contribute to the incidence 

2 of caner in children? To asthma in children? 

3 But not only does coal energy foul our air and 

4 water, it also helps heat up our world. 

5 I live in Redstone, Colorado, a tiny town 

6 in the mountains and I keep a nature journal. I 

7 want my grandchildren to be able to some day read 

8 my journal and say, oh, so western grosbeaks 

9 arrived in June back then and the service berries 

10 were ripe July, because I imagine things will be 

11 very different in 20 years. The climate is 

12 changing and with it all of nature is being 

13 altered.

14 Here in Colorado as a result of climate 

15 change, we're faced with vicious and terrifying 

16 wildfires that devour thousands of acres of 

17 forests. Then we have mudslides and flooding 

18 because of that deforestation. I don't know 

19 anyone in the state who doesn't worry about 

20 wildfires destroying their homes.

21 On my drive to Denver today I passed 

22 mountains covered with dead forests killed by 

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1 pine beetles that take advantage of trees 

2 stressed by rising temperatures. The water 

3 levels in our rivers are nearly always below 

4 average in recent years. 

5 Last yearn whenever I drove south from 

6 Redstone toward Perranya (ph) the reservoir was 

7 just a big muddy hole. 

8 I wrote a book about women ranchers in 

9 Texas. The higher temperatures and lack of rain 

10 have devastated ranching in Texas as well as in 

11 Colorado and throughout the American west. 

12 That's a part of America that can't hold out in 

13 the face of global warming and that's a sad 

14 thing.

15 Coal energy is the biggest contributor to 

16 CO2 emissions in our country and that means it 

17 changes our climate. To deny this is wishful or 

18 faulty thinking. And although I'm healthy now, 

19 here's something that makes me feel sick, the 

20 greed that motivates the owners of coal 

21 companies. They spend millions of dollars on 

22 publicity. They pay for ad campaigns that deny

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1 the truth, that intentionally mislead Americans 

2 into thinking coal means security and jobs. But 

3 don't believe it. They don't care about you and 

4 me or our children. They just want to get richer 

5 and richer, and that's a shameful thing.

6 And though we are just regular people, 

7 when we stand together we can accomplish great 

8 things and we can say no to coal companies. So 

9 in regard to the clean power plan it's about time 

10 and I think we should all get behind it. We owe 

11 our children and grandchildren clean air, pure 

12 water, a chance to be healthy, and a beautiful 

13 world in which to live. Thank you.

14 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Lopez.

15 (Applause.) 

16 MS. SUTIN: Okay. We're waiting for some 

17 other speakers to arrive. So we will pause for a 

18 few minutes and we'll go back on the record when 

19 they arrive. Thank you.

20 (Brief recess at 1:26 p.m.)

21 (Record resumes at 1:31 p.m.)

22 MS. SUTIN: Okay. Mr. Leaver, if you 

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1 would like to go first. 

2 MR. LEAVER: Thank you and good morning. 

3 I am Edward Leaver. I am a physicist

4 speaking as a private citizen. I wish to thank 

5 you Elyana, Denise, Ms. Paris, again, and EPA for 

6 hosting these hearings.

7 I unequivocally support EPA's clean power 

8 plan to reign in carbon dioxide emissions. The 

9 cause of -- global warming is not lost. Yet 

10 global energy consumption, globally will at least 

11 double by mid-century regardless of what the 

12 United States does. Not from the one billion 

13 people already using vast amounts of electricity, 

14 or the one billion using modest amounts of 

15 electricity, but from the 1.6 billion people that 

16 do not have any access to electricity whatsoever; 

17 the 2.4 billion that have almost no access to 

18 electricity; and the three billion new people 

19 that will be born by mid-century who will need 

20 electricity. This is a huge undertaking.

21 Greenhouse gas emissions too are a global 

22 problem. Given the domestic emissions will be of 

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1 no consequence if we continue increase fossil 

2 fuel exports abroad. We continue to release 

3 public coal from public lands, yet we freely give 

4 much of that away to be burnt not here, but in 

5 Europe and Asia, thus encouraging our 

6 neighborhoods -- their own clean air 

7 responsibilities.

8 Even domestically we have no long term, 

9 long enough carbon plan to economically replace 

10 coal and as a responsible and reliable power 

11 source. Numerous studies, including EPA's, have 

12 shown that wind and solar and gas alone will not 

13 by themselves, at a reasonable cost, decrease 

14 power sector carbon emissions to the near zero 

15 level required by mid-century.

16 This is a global problem. Coal is 

17 ubiquitous, easy to mine and transport and fossil 

18 power plants are comparatively simple to build at 

19 reasonable costs. The global power problem is 

20 staggering and coal is the simplest solution. 

21 If we, United States, do not exert 

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1 carbon power solutions that are globally actable,

2 the rest of the globe will continue to apply 

3 coal. We can do better and we must do better. 

4 The EPA's clean power plan represents a 

5 regulatory approach which, while a necessary and 

6 welcomed first step, is hardly the last word in 

7 this process. 

8 Senator Michael Bennett has called for 

9 development of a comprehensive national energy 

10 plan to take optimal advantage of all low-carbon 

11 energy sources. And, yes, this most certainly 

12 must require an infusion of modern, reliable,

13 safe nuclear power. 

14 As far as national plans go, Germany has 

15 such a plan, Britain has a plan, and France had

16 one. They differ in their details but they do 

17 have plans. And we, the world's second largest 

18 energy producer and source of greenhouse gas, 

19 need a comprehensive national plan as well, one 

20 that adds up. And I ask that we all support 

21 Senator Bennett's national energy plan and once 

22 again support EPA's clean power plan as a 

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1 critical step in that direction.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Leaver.

4 Next if I can have Cynthia Linton.

5 MS. LINTON: Hello. My name is Cynthia 

6 Linton. I'm a grandmother and I came here from 

7 Chicago to testify. That's how important I think 

8 this carbon rule is. So thank you for this 

9 opportunity.

10 I want to speak in defense of nature and 

11 how we must preserve it from the destructive 

12 activities of men, women and industries who are 

13 on this planet for just a nanosecond compared 

14 with the forest, mountains, and oceans.

15 I have always enjoyed being out in 

16 nature, from my early days at my grandparents' 

17 home in the Rhode Island woods, to summer camp in 

18 New Hampshire, to fishing with my late husband in 

19 Wisconsin and the Florida Keys. Being out in 

20 nature is so restful and it helps us put things 

21 in perspective. 

22 We owned a condo in the Florida Keys for 

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1 ten years. Sitting on our balcony overlooking 

2 the ocean I could smell the salt, feel the warm 

3 breezes and contemplate the sparking blue and 

4 green patterns in the water for hours. 

5 I watched pelicans fold their wings and 

6 dive bomb into schools of fish and long-legged 

7 white shore bird peck at crabs and other morsels 

8 along the beach. It was paradise. We especially 

9 enjoyed a day out on the water in a small boat 

10 hoping to catch fish, perhaps some snapper or 

11 grouper for dinner. 

12 It got to the point where it didn't 

13 really matter if we caught fish. It was being 

14 there that was important. The Keys is one of the 

15 few place you can watch the sun rise in the 

16 morning and then just go across the street in the 

17 evening to see a spectacular blue and purple and 

18 pink sunset.

19 But, alas, about ten years ago two 

20 hurricanes in back-to-back years took out our 

21 dock with a storm surge and flooded our property. 

22 Then the next year a third hurricane wiped out 

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1 homes and businesses just across the road.

2 Insurance rates were skyrocketing and we 

3 watched with dismay as a retaining wall had to be 

4 erected on our beach to keep the water from 

5 lapping on the building.

6 We sold our little piece of paradise for 

7 fear the advancing ocean would damage it beyond 

8 repair. When I read about global warming and the 

9 rising ocean and what it will do to islands and 

10 low lands I fear my beloved Keys won't be there 

11 for future generations. My children and 

12 grandchildren love the Keys, but their children 

13 may not have that opportunity. 

14 To me the erosion and flooding of coastal 

15 areas is very personal. And I know that south 

16 Florida is especially at risk. Without action to 

17 stop climate change the Keys will be underwater. 

18 No place on earth is safe from the 

19 ravages of climate change and pollution. With 

20 Congress unwilling to act, we rely on you, the 

21 EPA, to take the steps outlined in the carbon 

22 rule. Please do not weaken it. In fact, I urge 

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1 you to strengthen it. We who love this land and 

2 care about its future are looking to you for 

3 leadership. Thank you. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Linton.

5 Next if I can have Barbara Hildebrand.

6 And, again, if I can have you spell your 

7 name for the court reporter, that would be great.

8 DR. HILDEBRAND: All right. It's H-i-l9 d- as in David, e-b-r-a-n-d. Okay. 

10 MS. SUTIN: Go ahead.

11 DR. HILDEBRAND: Good afternoon. I am 

12 Dr. Barbara Hildebrand, a retired college 

13 instructor. Thank you for giving me the 

14 opportunity to speak to the panel. I am 

15 originally from Cleveland, Ohio. My testimony 

16 today will be about my experiences watching Lake 

17 Erie die and later be brought back to life as an 

18 example to the panel of how effective and vitally 

19 important federal environmental regulations can 

20 be. 

21 In the '50s my high school friends and I 

22 spent much of our summers on one of Lake Erie's 

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1 many beaches swimming, water skiing and sometimes 

2 after dark skinny dipping. But by 1959 our 

3 senior year, we began to avoid the lake because 

4 of recurring ear infections and other ailments 

5 caused by bacteria in the water.

6 About that time we discovered a giant 

7 pipe a few miles from the beach discharging raw 

8 sewage into Lake Erie. From 1960 to 1970 the 

9 beaches of Lake Erie were closed and my younger 

10 brothers never had the opportunity to enjoy them 

11 as my friends and I did. 

12 The Cuyahoga River runs through the Flats 

13 District of Cleveland and feeds into Lake Erie. 

14 My dad and I went down the river every year to 

15 service our boat. In 1969 the river caught fire 

16 near the Republic steel mill. This was not 

17 surprising as the river was covered with oil and 

18 other pollutants from decades of industrial 

19 waste.

20 As the panel must know, this fire led to 

21 the Clean Water Act of 1972. You might be 

22 interested to know the Cuyahoga River now has 60 

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1 different species of fish. 

2 One cloudy November day in the early 

3 1980s I was walking along the beach in front of 

4 my dad's lakefront condo when a diver in a wet 

5 suit emerged from the lake. He was with the Ohio 

6 State University Lake Reclamation Project and he 

7 told me that the lake cleanup was at least six 

8 years ahead of schedule. 

9 The clean up was due to federal bans on 

10 pesticides, mercury and phosphates from 

11 wastewater.

12 One of my favorite activities when I 

13 visit family in Cleveland these days is walleye 

14 fishing. Fishing has been great, but it gets 

15 hard to catch them every year because the water 

16 has become so clean and so clear that the fish 

17 are spooked by the boat. 

18 Just as federal efforts resulted in the 

19 cleanup of Lake Erie, federal regulations can 

20 help to reclaim our air. The EPA has the power 

21 to pass rules, regulating coal-powered plant 

22 emissions. This is one of the important tools at 

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1 our disposal in this fight to protect our 

2 environment. Thank you. 

3 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Hildebrand.

4 You can all be seated. Thank you.

5 Okay. Next if I could have Millicent 

6 Young.

7 MS. YOUNG: I'm Millicent Young. To all 

8 of the very eloquent, concerned speakers, almost 

9 all asking for strong protections, thank you. 

10 Especially that nurse. That was amazing. 

11 So, if you live on planet earth, you 

12 know, someone with environmentally caused disease 

13 such as cancer, eye irritation, emphysema, 

14 asthma, et cetera, plus the disease of depression 

15 as we stand by and watch the earth be harmed, 

16 perhaps irreparably. 

17 I and many others here are calling for 

18 the EPA to make and enforce more stringent rules 

19 than those they are working on. 

20 So I watch bent-over, old and not so old 

21 coalminers hacking as they near death and think 

22 of the trials of my grandfather, a coalminer in 

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1 Virginia a century ago. My father died in a non2 coalmining accident. I know first-hand of the 

3 sacrifices people have made to fuel our country 

4 and our own family economies. 

5 It is time for us to make some 

6 sacrifices. The fossil fuel binge is over. It 

7 may seem inconvenient to use less, and make a 

8 sudden shift to clean energy, but that is minor 

9 compared to trying to survive in a world with 

10 dwindling water, toxic water, toxic air, toxic 

11 land, unprecedented heat and the attendant 

12 weather disasters.

13 As noted by other speakers, these are 

14 just some of the costs of coal and fossil fuel 

15 use. We'll have a difficult time counting our 

16 money as we gasp for air and have no clean water 

17 to drink, no food, for lack of irrigation water.

18 The radiant energy devices invented by T. 

19 Henry Moray as well as Nikola Tesla and wind, 

20 wave, solar, hydro, tidal, biomass, geothermal, 

21 and other energies need the subsidies we have 

22 afforded dirty fuels. Most of these energy 

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1 sources have been proven though their delivery is 

2 undeveloped, again, for lack of support which is 

3 there from the people at least. Coal energy 

4 delivery is terribly flawed. 

5 Despite unbearable human and 

6 environmental costs we have subsidized and 

7 allowed coal interests to monopolize the rails 

8 and rattle through our towns day and night, cause 

9 acid soils and acid rain, desecrated our 

10 landscapes and wildlife corridors, contributed to 

11 global warming, and caused air pollution as well 

12 as grievous human suffering symbolized by a coal 

13 corporation's Ludlow massacre of miners and their 

14 families near Trinidad, Colorado in 1914, 100 

15 years ago and we're still doing it, a culture of 

16 greed has allowed profit to trump public health 

17 and public resource. So private profit at the 

18 cost of public resource. Take the money and run. 

19 This morning before this hearing, I 

20 thought, oh, I need more sleep. Me first, the 

21 environment later. Clearly this attitude will 

22 lead us to follow dinosaur tracks into 

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1 extinction. We call for change and jobs we can 

2 be proud to do now. Let us be a beacon of 

3 sustainability for the world. Thank you. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Young. 

5 Next, if I could have Max Boykoff. If 

6 you could spell your name for the record. 

7 Thanks.

8 MR. BOYKOFF: Maxwell, M-a-x-w-e-l-l, 

9 last name Boykoff, B-o-y-k-o-f-f. 

10 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Go ahead. 

11 MR. BOYKOFF: Great. Well, thank you 

12 very much for this public hearing. I am an 

13 associate professor at the University of 

14 Colorado, Boulder. I do my teaching in 

15 environmental studies and geography. I'm also a 

16 fellow at the Cooperative Institute for Research 

17 and Environment Sciences. 

18 I come here today amidst the work that I 

19 do, one of the projects that I work on along with 

20 grad students and undergrads is working through 

21 this collective on environment, culture and 

22 politics where we work to examine how formal 

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1 climate science and policy find meaning in 

2 people's everyday lives.

3 So as we're progressing into this 21st 

4 century, we all can recognize that climate change 

5 has become a defining symbol of our collective 

6 relationship with the environment. 

7 Diagnoses about what it is, prognoses 

8 about what to do make for high stakes, high 

9 profile, highly politicized science and policy 

10 deliberations. They also cut to the heart of the 

11 way in which we go about our daily lives, we 

12 work, we play, we make decisions, we relax in 

13 modern life. And so it critically shapes our 

14 everyday lives and our livelihoods. It's no 

15 longer merely an environmental issue. Concern 

16 for these issues does not tag someone as an 

17 environmentalist. These cut to the heart of our 

18 shared economic political, cultural and social 

19 lives.

20 So I come here today just to take my five 

21 minutes. And while there is a focus on the 

22 technical dimensions of this proposed ruling, I 

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1 applaud that, but I'd like to encourage everyone 

2 also to continue to consider the social and 

3 cultural aspects of this. 

4 One of the areas in which I've done my 

5 own research for over a decade now is looking at 

6 media representations and media coverage of 

7 climate change. And so with this collective, 

8 with this group, grad students and others, we've 

9 tracked the amount of media coverage paid to 

10 climate change and global warming. I can give 

11 you information and I can submit it through my 

12 written comments about how to access this around 

13 the world looking at 25 different countries, 50 

14 different sources, a global perspective, and then 

15 broken down in more detail in eight different 

16 countries. One of which being the United States. 

17 And as we tracked this ebb and flow, 

18 we've noticed just in the last few months that 

19 the National Climate Assessment coming out in May 

20 followed by this initial announcement of the 

21 ruling in June has increased tremendously the 

22 amount of media attention paid to climate change.

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1 Now, it's a mistake for us to think that 

2 more attention equals greater understanding or 

3 more engagement and so forth, but at least it's 

4 opening up this space for our ongoing 

5 considerations. So I'm happy to share that. I 

6 will do that through those written comments.

7 And so looking to media as a bridge 

8 between these formal climates, science and policy 

9 arenas within these climate control quarters like 

10 we're in today, but then out to people on the 

11 street, everyday people who aren't picking up 

12 peer reviewed literature, who don't have the 

13 opportunity to sit here in this privileged space 

14 with us today. 

15 So we situate this work within this 

16 larger cultural politics as we call it, or 

17 culture and politics of climate change. And so 

18 going forward, again, what I wanted to come here 

19 and talk about and urge everyone to do is to 

20 continue to place this also importantly at the 

21 center of ongoing negotiations. These are 

22 complex considerations, certainly. We need to 

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1 have the courage to confront them across all 

2 dimensions. I applaud the proposed rule as a 

3 step in that initial direction. But I want to 

4 just make it clear that there are many of us 

5 within the social sciences pairing with the 

6 natural sciences that are looking at these sorts 

7 of issues and our up service to this process as 

8 well. Thank you. 

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Boykoff.

10 Okay. We are going to end the morning 

11 session. Thank you to all those who stayed to 

12 speak and listen. Can I answer a quick 

13 clarifying question? 

14 PARTICIPANT: Where do we turn in our 

15 written testimony?

16 MS. SUTIN: Oh, you can leave it up here 

17 with us at the front.

18 We will start our next session at 1:10. 

19 But please be back by around 1:00 because we'll 

20 be trying to get everyone in and settled before 

21 we start the hearing. 

22 So it is 12:54 and I am officially 

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1 closing this morning's session.

2 (Whereupon, at 12:54 p.m., the morning 

3 session concluded.)

4

5 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

6 SESSION B

7 MR. DAILY: Good afternoon everyone. We 

8 would like to get our afternoon session started.

9 My name is Carl Bailey. I'm the Director 

10 of the Air Program here at EPA Region 8 in 

11 Denver. And on the afternoon panel with me are 

12 Amanda Currybrown. Amanda is from our Office of 

13 Air Quality Planning and Standards in North 

14 Carolina.

15 And to my right is Ryan Simms, and Ryan 

16 is with our office of Atmospheric Programs in 

17 Washington, D.C. And our hearing report is 

18 Zachary over there that will be recording all the 

19 comments that are made today. 

20 So I have a few opening remarks and some 

21 ground rules that I would like to present before 

22 we get going with the commenters. So if you 

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1 would bear with me for a couple minutes and then 

2 we'll start calling folks up to provide their 

3 comments.

4 So we are here today to listen to your 

5 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

6 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

7 of these proposed rules in June of 2014. The 

8 first rule is EPA's proposed clean power plan for 

9 existing power plants. This proposal consists of 

10 two main parts, site specific goals to lower 

11 carbon pollution from power plants, and 

12 guidelines to help states develop their plans for 

13 meeting the goals. This proposal gives states 

14 flexibility in determining how to meet the goals. 

15 The state will choose what goes into their plans 

16 that show that they will achieve the needed 

17 reductions to meet the goals by 2030.

18 The second proposed rule is EPA's 

19 proposed rule to address carbon dioxide emissions 

20 from modified and reconstructed power plants. If 

21 you would like more details on either of these 

22 two proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

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1 available near the registration desk.

2 Today's hearing in Denver is one of four 

3 public hearings across the country this week on 

4 the two proposed rules. We have had tremendous 

5 interest in each of the hearings and I would like 

6 to thank you for taking time out of your day to 

7 joint us and share your comments. We've had a 

8 lot of people sign up to speak today and we want 

9 to hear from all of you.

10 Before we get started I would like to go 

11 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

12 that will make this afternoon's hearing run 

13 smoothly.

14 First, be sure you have checked in at the

15 registration desk, even if you're planning to 

16 speak today. And if you have signed up to speak 

17 online or by phone and haven't told us that 

18 you're here yet, please step out to the 

19 registration desk and let EPA staff know that 

20 you've arrived. 

21 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

22 given a room letter when you checked in, either 

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1 Room A or Room B. Please check and make sure 

2 that you were assigned Room B as this is room B.

3 So here is how the hearing will work this 

4 afternoon. I'll call speakers up in pairs. When 

5 you name is called, please come to the podium at 

6 the front of the room. When I call on you to 

7 speak, please state your name and spell it for 

8 the court reporter. Your comments will be 

9 transcribed and included in the record of 

10 comments on the proposed rule.

11 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

12 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

13 how much time you have left to speak. It's right 

14 here on the desk. When the light turns from 

15 green to yellow, that means you have one minute 

16 remaining. When it turns to red, that's the 

17 signal for you to wrap up your testimony. The 

18 light will then flash red and beep which means 

19 you've spoken for more than five minutes and it's 

20 time to stop.

21 When you are finished speaking, please 

22 remain at the table until the person next to you 

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1 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

2 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

3 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. 

4 I will then call up the next pair of 

5 speakers and so on and so on. 

6 If you have brought a written copy of 

7 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

8 the registration desk before you leave today, or 

9 alternatively you can leave it with us here at 

10 this table.

11 And then a request from our hearing 

12 reporter, as you're speaking at the podiums,

13 please don't put your speaker notes over the 

14 small microphones on the podium because he's 

15 using that to listen to your comments for 

16 transcription.

17 Because of the large number of people 

18 that have signed up to speak today, and to be 

19 fair to everyone we are going to have to enforce 

20 the five-minute limit strictly. Let me assure 

21 you that EPA gives just as much consideration to 

22 comments we receive in writing as we do comments 

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1 we receive at public hearings like this one. So 

2 if you have more that you would like to comment 

3 on, please submit it in writing. Your comments 

4 will be reviewed. 

5 There is still plenty of time to get 

6 written comment in to EPA. There are comment 

7 cards available at the registration desk. 

8 Comments must be received by October 16, 2014. 

9 We will put any written comments submitted today 

10 in the official docket for the proposed rules. 

11 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

12 other ways are available at the materials table 

13 near the registration desk. 

14 We are scheduled to go to 8 p.m. tonight. 

15 But this panel will take a short break at 5 p.m. 

16 and change out the panel members and then resume 

17 again and go to 8 p.m.

18 If you have any questions during this 

19 afternoon, please see staff at the registration 

20 desk or out in the hallways, someone will try to 

21 help you. 

22 Finally, I ask each of you to be 

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1 respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 

2 people here with a wide variety of views in our 

3 audience. We want to hear from all of you and we 

4 can do that and be fair but we do ask that 

5 everyone listen quietly and we want to make sure 

6 we get to hear everyone that's signed up to 

7 speak. So, thank you, again, for taking time to 

8 share your comments on the proposed rule. And 

9 let's get started. 

10 So the first two folks to come up, 

11 please, Lee Rayburn and Dawn Hendry. 

12 MS. HENDRY: My name is Dawn Hendry, D-a13 w-n, H-e-n-d-r-y. I applaud the EPA's efforts to 

14 respond to the overwhelming science showing the 

15 evidence and impact of human-caused climate 

16 change. 

17 I'm a beekeeper and I brought home 

18 another dead hive Monday night from rural Hudson, 

19 Colorado. It's bad out there, it's real bad. 

20 I've lost four of my seven hives to drought the 

21 past few years, but this one was full of honey, 

22 so they didn't starve this year. Now colony 

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1 collapse disorder is the cause. But I'm just a 

2 hobbyist. My friends lost hundreds of hives from 

3 the thousand year flood Colorado experienced last 

4 fall.

5 In addition, all three of my children and 

6 I have asthma. Michael, my son, has had life7 threatening asthma since he was a baby. He grew 

8 up on a nebulizer and had 90 doses of steroids 

9 his kindergarten year. These are not without 

10 huge side effects.

11 Please do all you can do to clean up our 

12 air that has 400 parts per million of CO2 

13 concentration last year. 

14 Finally, we lost two friends, Sam and 

15 Minetti Lucas, who died in the lower North Fork 

16 wildfire two years ago. Our state has been 

17 ravaged by so many unprecedented wildfires these 

18 past years, the largest fires in our recorded 

19 history. And we've gotten off easy compared to 

20 many other states in the west.

21 Personally, we've insulated our attic, 

22 gotten new tightly sealed windows, and I drive a 

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1 hybrid, but this is a drop in the bucket for what 

2 we need to reverse climate change. 

3 My grandfather worked in the coal mines 

4 in Wyoming in the 1920s and he didn't have a lot 

5 of options. Now we have so many other options 

6 for clean energy and jobs. Please move forward 

7 to a cleaner, drought-free, fire-free, asthma8 free future that allows people and all species to 

9 continue to live in our region. Thank you. 

10 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

11 MR. RAYBURN: Hello, my name is Lee 

12 Rayburn, R-a-y-b-u-r-n. I live here in Denver 

13 and also in Arizona. 

14 My background just a bit, if I could, I'm 

15 an architect and developer and for most of my 

16 career, it's been a long one, I've focused on 

17 sustainable development in energy efficient 

18 development and until about a year and a half ago 

19 I used to go to bed every night thinking, well, 

20 of all the projects I've done, about 70,000 

21 pounds per day of carbon dioxide did not go into 

22 the atmosphere that could have gone. And I felt 

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1 pretty good about. Patted myself on the back. 

2 And then I woke up to how complacent that was and 

3 I began to realize how real and what present and 

4 clear danger climate change and global warming is 

5 to our daily lives. I'm old enough that it's not 

6 going to affect me, but everybody's got kids and 

7 grandkids out there, it's really about them and 

8 we need to do something about it.

9 I applaud the Obama administration and 

10 the EPA's first steps towards addressing this 

11 incredibly important issue, but I also recognize 

12 they are first steps. And as a big supporter of 

13 President Obama, I've got the wonderful Christmas 

14 cards with bow on them. I kind of look to him 

15 and go, it's great that you've finally got to 

16 this point, but like me, you need to get out of 

17 your place of complacency and understand the 

18 crisis at hand.

19 What I want to do today is I want to join 

20 -- you're going to hear a lot of people talk 

21 about the health effects, the effects on bees, 

22 climate, the impact on climate of continuing in 

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1 any way to depend upon carbon as a way to 

2 generate energy. And I totally support that, and 

3 am right there with them, so you can add my name 

4 to that long list of people. 

5 I today want to take a little different 

6 tact, if I could, and speak personally. I'm old 

7 enough to remember the world before the EPA and 

8 far older than all of you sitting at that table. 

9 And I remember a time when, you know, we had love 

10 canal, when smog was 100 times worse than it is 

11 now. I used to fly -- I've always flown a lot, 

12 the smoke filled airplanes, when you came off and 

13 you could wring the nicotine out of your clothes, 

14 if you wanted to. Streams and river catching 

15 fire, cars that got a fraction of our current 

16 mileage, the list could go on and on. You 

17 probably know better than I. If you don't, you 

18 can walk around the halls here, there are lots of 

19 pictures showing some of the wonderful things 

20 that the EPA did with the support of its 

21 administrations.

22 We all know that right now there's a 

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1 growing political movement to limit how our 

2 government -- our federal government -- becomes 

3 involved in our lives. And we know that one 

4 party in particular, and I think many politicians 

5 of all shades are on a course to dismantle much 

6 of what has been built up to create what was the 

7 most prosperous middle class in all of history 

8 and one of the most protected environments that 

9 we've seen and repaired a lot of the damage that 

10 happened in that list that I -- smog, love 

11 canals, et cetera, that I talked about earlier.

12 And concurrent with that effort is an 

13 assumption that a free market can somehow self 

14 regulate itself, move toward what needs to be 

15 done, especially as incentives are put in place.

16 What I know from my personal life is 

17 that's not true. Every good movement, every big 

18 change that has happened in terms of 

19 environmental protection did not come from the 

20 free market, it came from an enlightened 

21 government and enlightened administration and the 

22 EPA and other agencies in the government. 

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1 So today I just want to applaud that 

2 history. I've lived through a lot of it. Took 

3 part in the very first Earth Day a long, long 

4 time ago. Was on the national organizing 

5 committee for that. And I know the importance 

6 that EPA has had in leading these very necessary 

7 efforts to change threats to our environment. 

8 I think meetings like today are great. 

9 You should always listen to your constituents, 

10 you should always listen to the public, but I 

11 just want to state what we all know, not all 

12 statements are equal, some are based on science, 

13 some are based on opinion. We need to lead with 

14 science and my plea to you is EPA listen 

15 carefully, but continue to lead. You've got a 

16 great and proud history and please do not back 

17 away from it. Thank you.

18 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

19 Our next two speakers, could I have 

20 Hunter Lovins and Cynthia Schmidt?

21 (Conversation off microphone.)

22 MR. DAILY: Sorry, go ahead. 

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1 MS. LOVINS: My name is Hunter Lovins, L2 o-v-i-n-s. I am president of Natural Capitalism 

3 Solutions. We work with companies, communities, 

4 countries, on ways to implement more sustainable 

5 practices profitably. I am also a professor of 

6 business at BARD MBA.

7 I am here today to talk to you personally 

8 and also professionally. I have a compromised 

9 respiratory system, gotten from working in Kabul, 

10 Afghanistan. 

11 The emissions from coal plants hurt me. 

12 So to me this is a very personal issue. I live 

13 downwind of a plant that burns coal. And I can 

14 tell when they're burning coal, it's worse. 

15 Here in Colorado over 430,000 people 

16 suffer from asthma. Hospital visits across 

17 Colorado 84 million in 2011 alone, just from 

18 respiratory compromise. Much of the pollution 

19 comes from burning coal. It is also a business 

20 issue. And you will hear a lot about it's going 

21 to cripple our economy, these regulations that 

22 you are proposing. The truth is, it will not. 

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1 It will cripple our economy if we don't.

2 Regions that have high extractive 

3 industries have higher levels of long-term 

4 poverty and high unemployment rates. There is 

5 now study from Carnegie Mellon on the economic 

6 impact of adding renewables to the mix where 

7 there is coal and where there is not coal. Where 

8 you add renewables where there is little coal 

9 being burned you get a $10 per megawatt hour 

10 generated additional benefit to the economy from 

11 adding the renewables. Where there is coal and 

12 you are displacing coal, you get $100 per 

13 megawatt hour additional benefit to the economy.

14 We saw here in Colorado down in Lamar 

15 when just recently the coal-fired power plant was 

16 cancelled. The Lamar Utilities Board said, this 

17 is win/win. They said it will stop the bleeding. 

18 Trying to run this coal plant which had numerous 

19 EPA violations could never get its act together 

20 to burn cleanly. Was costing the utility.

21 Now the settlement cost the utility. 

22 They had to pay out $325,000 in settlement fees 

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1 to the groups that sued them; 120 million to 

2 build the plant. So this is a plant that at will 

3 never operate, except as a test so the utilities 

4 can show what went wrong with it.

5 But even having to pay the fees the 

6 utility board said, "We're glad to be rid of it." 

7 Renewables are winning. A recent report 

8 from CitiBank looked at the ten-year forward 

9 price of coal, gas, and renewables. Gas is 

10 cheaper than coal and they said even with gas, 

11 ten-year forward price 11 cents a kilowatt hour, 

12 ten year forward price of solar 10 cents a 

13 kilowatt hour. They said it's over, we're going 

14 to go renewable. 

15 We are installing renewables at an 

16 incredible rate, faster even than natural gas. 

17 Since January 1, 2011, 31,000 megawatts versus 

18 47,000 megawatts renewables. In the past 30 

19 months 38 percent of all new generating capacity 

20 has come from renewables. And in the first half 

21 of 2014, almost 56 percent of new generating 

22 capacity in this country has come from 

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1 renewables.

2 Renewable solar, just solar alone, now 

3 employs more people than coal, 142,698 employees 

4 versus 123,227. Per dollar invested in 

5 renewables, you get 10 times the number of jobs 

6 you get from coal.

7 So when we hear people talking about, 

8 we're losing jobs, no, we're not. The jobs are 

9 being lost because the coal industry is 

10 mechanizing. It's shutting down the jobs.

11 It will cost more. Deutsche Bank did a 

12 study of even the heavy subsidies to renewables 

13 in Germany. Yeah, it costs a little more, two to 

14 three Euro per month more, 8.6 billion Euro more 

15 per year. Sounds like a lot. Had they just 

16 continued to burn coal, 9.4 billion Euro more. 

17 So, sorry, you'll pay more, you'll pay less more 

18 if you abandon coal and go to renewables.

19 Thank you. 

20 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Please go ahead. 

21 MS. SCHMIDT: My name is Cynthia Schmidt, 

22 S-c-h-m-i-d as in dog, t as in Tom. I live in 

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1 the mountains west of Denver. 

2 I am here today as a very concerned 

3 citizen giving my full support to the EPA's clean 

4 power plan It is clear, we must reduce carbon 

5 pollution and it must be a national priority. It 

6 is imperative for our health and its impact on 

7 climate change.

8 Here in Colorado we've seen firsthand the 

9 devastation of drought on our wild lands, 

10 devastating forest fires and extreme flooding. I 

11 know people who have lost homes and businesses 

12 from the widespread flooding last year. It is 

13 clear we must urgently do something now as a 

14 country. 

15 The EPA clean power plan sets a very 

16 achievable goal giving each individual state 

17 targets to meet so that overall we can reduce 

18 carbon pollution from power plants 30 percent 

19 from 2005 levels by 2030. That's 15 years. 

20 In 1961, President Kennedy set a national 

21 goal of landing a man on the moon. Nine years 

22 later Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon with his 

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1 famous quote, "One small step for a man, one 

2 giant leap for mankind." 

3 We as a nation put a man on the moon with 

4 nine years of focused national effort. Our 

5 opponents saying we can't possibly reduce our 

6 carbon emissions in 15 years, it's time to take 

7 that one small step towards that giant leap for 

8 mankind with our energy policy. 

9 The EPA's plan does not dictate how each 

10 state must reach its goals. This is an important 

11 fact that needs to be heard and understood by the 

12 public to counter the misinformation that this 

13 plan will force states to close plants and lose 

14 jobs with no choices and no state controls. This 

15 is just not true. I fully support the fact that 

16 the EPA's plan allows each state to meet its 

17 goals by creating its own plan, working with 

18 industry and even with neighboring states. This 

19 is a smart, feasible way to move us away from 

20 dirty power to cleaner power.

21 Many states with large dirty power energy 

22 economies, especially those with large coal 

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1 economies claim this plan cannot be done. This 

2 is just not true. The proof that it can be done 

3 is right here in Colorado. The energy industry 

4 plays a huge role in Colorado's economy. In 2012 

5 Colorado's energy industry employed more than 

6 122,000 people and produced more than $41 billion 

7 in revenue. 

8 In 2011 Colorado ranked fifth in the 

9 nation for natural gas production, ninth for 

10 crude oil, and 11th for coal production. But 

11 even with all that, by 2013, Colorado ranked 

12 eighth in the nation for total solar capacity and 

13 tenth for installed wind generation. And we've 

14 only continued to grow our renewable energy power 

15 production and industry, meaning cleaner air, and 

16 more jobs in Colorado.

17 Colorado is on the forefront of an 

18 environmentally and fiscally responsible clean 

19 energy policy. How is this possible? 

20 In 2010 we in Colorado pass the Colorado 

21 Clean Air Clean Jobs Act which already has 

22 Colorado on the path to meeting the new EPA clean 

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1 power act goals. 

2 Public support for the act was very high. 

3 Back in 2010 a bipartisan research polling team, 

4 and I have the reference on paper when I give it 

5 to them, found that 79 percent of Coloradoans 

6 preferred renewable energy and natural gas over 

7 coal. 

8 Now, you may ask why I just spent time 

9 reviewing Colorado's success? This is why, 

10 Colorado's continuing progress since 2010 proves 

11 it's entirely feasible for the country to meet 

12 the new clean power plan goals. Colorado is a 

13 model to hold up to other states. In addition 

14 Coloradoans themselves want cleaner energy, even 

15 more so today than in 2010. There are no 

16 legitimate reasons that we as a nation cannot 

17 reach the new goals in 15 years by 2030.

18 Thank you for listening.

19 MR. DAILY: Thank you both.

20 Okay. Our next two speakers, I'd like to 

21 call Phillip Ward and David Justice.

22 MR. WARD: Do I go first?

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1 MR. DAILY: Phillip Ward, yeah? Please 

2 proceed.

3 MR. WARD: Hi, my name is Phillip Ward. 

4 I am a biology student at Regis University and I 

5 have been trained in the idea of protecting the 

6 natural world and living with it instead of 

7 taking from it. 

8 And I came, I heard of a rally today up 

9 on top of I think it's called Mellinia Ridge, and 

10 there was a big rally and I felt kind of weird up 

11 there because it's right above, you know, train 

12 tracks that carry just cars and cars of coal. 

13 And it was kind of a good place to be, I guess, 

14 to, you know, before these like carbon dioxide 

15 cuts. 

16 But I also want to talk about how I think 

17 we as a nation could most effectively cut our 

18 carbon dioxide emissions, and that is nuclear 

19 power. And I am a minority among many 

20 environmentalists in that idea, but it turns out 

21 that for the least amount of impact to the 

22 environment you can produce carbon-free energy 

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1 very efficiently with little use of land, people 

2 are very much for nuclear -- I mean, for solar 

3 panels and windmills. You don't realize that the 

4 production costs of those are high. You have to 

5 mine from the earth, lots of minerals that, you 

6 know we can't -- we blow up mountains for 

7 windmills and solar panels, when you would blow 

8 up less mountains for one nuclear facility that 

9 could provide energy to millions of homes. 

10 And the technology we're using right now, 

11 we use pressurized water reactors, that is old 

12 technology and I call for more technology to be 

13 pioneered because there's hundreds of ways to do 

14 nuclear. Nuclear isn't just one way. 

15 I call for like investment in technology. 

16 I am also for fusion power, but fusion power is 

17 still science fiction at the moment. We will 

18 come up with it and it will change everything but 

19 until then I believe we need to look at nuclear 

20 power as one of the -- all of the above energy 

21 plans because it is not -- it is totally better 

22 than coal and natural gas which release carbon 

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1 dioxide that's been held in the earth's crust 

2 for, you know, millions of years and now we're 

3 just letting it go and turning our atmosphere to 

4 more Mars like. 

5 And I'm also calling for the research of 

6 thorium power. So right we use uranium as the 

7 main fuel and we have to dig far for it. It's 

8 about as rare as platinum and thorium is like 

9 something like 100 or a thousand times more 

10 abundant in the earth's crust. When undergone a 

11 fission process it produces less reactive waste 

12 and it cannot melt down because you have this 

13 thing called a liquid florium -- no, a liquid 

14 sodium fluoride reactor called lifter -- liquid 

15 fluoride thorium reactor, I'm sorry. And China 

16 is actually investing in these plants as a way to 

17 decrease their amount of emissions. But there's 

18 nothing done in the United States about this 

19 technology. And a technology like that could 

20 even be done in Colorado. And it would be an 

21 awesome place because there are a lot of 

22 environmentalists here, but yet the main 

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1 production of energy is from coal and natural gas 

2 in this state which is, I think is unfortunate.

3 So I'm just calling for looking into 

4 nuclear energy as a potential way to cut 

5 emissions and it would be more efficient than 

6 windmills and solar panels.

7 Thank you very much.

8 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

9 MR. JUSTICE: My name is David Martin 

10 Justice, J-u-s-t-i-c-e. I'm a native of 

11 Colorado. Was born and raised in Wildridge, 

12 about five miles straight west of here -- of this 

13 hearing room. And I worked in this building that 

14 was here that was built in 1959, it was torn down 

15 to build this building for four and a half years 

16 for the Post Office. So I -- physically I am 

17 here.

18 I went to the University of Colorado, 

19 Denver, which is seven block east of here, at 

20 that time and I graduated in August of 1970. On 

21 April 20th, 1970, the first Earth Day was put 

22 together by some of the students at that UCD and 

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1 it was held in a brand-new place called the 

2 Kerrigan Center which was about nine blocks from 

3 here. It's been torn down, it's where the 

4 convention center is now, as part of the 

5 convention center. 

6 Our Earth Day was considered to be one of 

7 the best in the country, perhaps because we 

8 invited Senator Gaylord Nelson to be the keynote 

9 speaker. As you probably know, he is known as 

10 the father of the EPA. He was a wonderful man. 

11 So my interest in environment goes back a 

12 long ways. I became somewhat ambivalent about 

13 the environment for a number of years. And my 

14 interest was renewed by a movie called "An 

15 Inconvenient Truth" in 2006. Since that time 

16 I've joined the Sierra Club and on and on and on.

17 I am kind of looking for ways where 

18 mankind can lessen the carbon footprint that 

19 we've stopped so heavily on the earth. 

20 I've lived in Colorado Springs since 

21 1973. The Martin Drake Power Plant that sits at 

22 the crossroads gateway to Colorado Springs 125 

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1 and U.S. 24, you can't miss it, right downtown, 

2 is about a mile from where I live. It caught 

3 fire and was closed for repairs in April of this 

4 year. This caught my interest and I wondered if 

5 the three steam turbines and generators could be 

6 moved to the Nixon Power Plants out of town and 

7 combined with the natural gas powered gas turbine 

8 and generator and it could produce considerably 

9 more power and can contribute considerably less 

10 carbon dioxide to the air.

11 The old power plant, big ugly thing, 

12 could be torn down and the area could be 

13 redeveloped. I don't think that's going to 

14 happen. I think they've decided they're going to 

15 leave it open for another 30 years.

16 Now, this configuration of the turbine --

17 the gas powered turbine and connected to the 

18 other turbines, it is called a combined-cycle 

19 power plant. You've probably heard of it. It's 

20 called CCPP for short. This is where the gas 

21 turbine is powered by burning natural gas and the 

22 exhaust heat would then heat the water into steam 

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1 to power -- it probably could power all three of 

2 these turbines that are steam turbines now. This 

3 will be done with many steam turbine power plants 

4 in the United States where there is abundant 

5 natural gas. 

6 Now, where there's abundant coal and 

7 maybe a lack of natural gas, the existing coal 

8 fired steam turbine plants could be converted to 

9 what's called an integrated gasification combined 

10 cycle plant or IGCCP. This is where coal is 

11 turned into sin gas which is coal gas, methane, 

12 to power the gas turbine and the exhaust heat 

13 used to heat the water to power the steam 

14 turbines. Or gasification plant -- a coal 

15 gasification plant could be located near coal 

16 mines and the sin gas could be shipped by 

17 pipeline. 

18 I Googled all this stuff because of my 

19 interest in lowering the -- now, a gas -- a water 

20 gas ship reactor could be added to either of 

21 these generating systems to produce hydrogen and 

22 carbon dioxide. Separated the hydrogen would 

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1 become the fuel to power the gas turbine and with 

2 water vapor as the exhaust gas. And CO2 could be 

3 sequestered, liquefied and used as an efficient, 

4 waterless fracking fluid. 

5 The latter coal related systems are 

6 basically what people are calling clean coal. 

7 It's the same as clean coal, but after 

8 researching there isn't such a thing as clean 

9 coal.

10 By doing either of these two things with 

11 coal gasification, virtually no carbon dioxide is 

12 left. If it's sequestered it can be easily 

13 sequestered because you're separating it at the 

14 time and it can be used -- it's called -- well, 

15 we all know what fracking is. And as a westerner 

16 I'm acutely aware of how scarce and precious 

17 water is, and I'm appalled that the million 

18 gallons of water for each well could become so 

19 polluted by hydro fracking that it can never be 

20 treated enough to ever be used for anything other 

21 than hydro fracking and much of it is injected 

22 into deep wells which are suspected of causing 

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1 earthquakes. 

2 So if we could go from hydro fracking to 

3 waterless fracking with carbon dioxide, it's 

4 already being done, but in a very small way, the 

5 other way of waterless fracking -- and I just 

6 found this out a couple weeks ago -- is it's 

7 called liquid propane fracking. And both of 

8 these carbon dioxide they can be separated at the 

9 wellhead and the carbon dioxide reused again. 

10 It's kind of a closed cycle thing.

11 MR. DAILY: So, Mr. Justice, I do need 

12 you to wrap up though.

13 MR. JUSTICE: I'm sorry. They're both 

14 expensive -- all of this is expensive stuff. And 

15 I would suggest maybe the federal government 

16 could help by ending -- you know, by paying say 

17 half of it. I'll leave with this thought. I did 

18 a little assignment --

19 MR. DAILY: Okay. Sir --

20 MR. JUSTICE: -- climate deniers and 

21 carbon purveyors have doomed the world to hell 

22 and high water. Thank you. 

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1 MR. DAILY: Thank you very much.

2 Okay. Our next two speakers, Nick Kerwin 

3 and Eric Larson.

4 And you are?

5 MR. KERWIN: Nick Kerwin. That's K-e-r6 w-i-n.

7 MR. DAILY: Erick Larson?

8 (No response.) 

9 MR. DAILY: Okay. So we're going to 

10 rearrange. Stacy Tellinghuisen. Sorry if I 

11 mispronounce. 

12 Mr. Kerwin.

13 MR. KERWIN: As I said, my name is Nick 

14 Kerwin. For full disclosure I am a co-owner of 

15 an employee-owned solar company in Boulder, 

16 Colorado. I am 28 years old and I am deeply 

17 concerned about global warming. Man is 

18 responsible for this warming. There is no 

19 debate. The science is in. Anyone who tells you 

20 otherwise is either lying or willfully ignorant. 

21 For the last two and a half years I've 

22 been living in Boulder, Colorado. Last September 

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1 my fiancé and I were under a mandatory evacuation 

2 during the 500-year flood. We were fortunate as 

3 we did not injure ourselves or lose any property,

4 but my office did suffer extensive damage and our 

5 company was displaced until this past January. 

6 The previous year, in 2012, we were under 

7 a voluntary evacuation due to the fire burning on 

8 Flagstaff Mountain. 

9 I consider my own experience and I think 

10 back to the devastation caused by Hurricane Sandy 

11 and Hurricane Katrina and I have to ask, is this 

12 the new normal? Are we going to have to deal 

13 with 50-year storms and 100-year floods every 

14 five years. In a decade we will be seeing 

15 Biblical disasters every two to three years. 

16 Where does it stop?

17 Some people will cite the cost as a 

18 reason that we should not adopt these 

19 regulations. But can we really afford to do 

20 nothing? 

21 How much does it cost to recover from a 

22 500-year flood? What is the cost to clean up a 

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1 hurricane?

2 We emit roughly a quarter of the world's 

3 greenhouse gases in this country. We bear a 

4 great responsibility to help mitigate the 

5 disastrous effects of global warming. As such, 

6 I'd like to advocate that the EPA take a bolder 

7 position and increase the targeted emissions 

8 reductions. We need bold action and we need it 

9 now. 

10 In 2050, I will be turning 65 years old 

11 and I don't want to live in a world plagued by 

12 drought and floods and tornados and hurricanes. 

13 I want the privilege of retiring in a habitable 

14 country like folks are doing today. 

15 I want to be able to have children and 

16 grandchildren and not worry about the world we're 

17 leaving them.

18 So, please, set aside short-term thinking 

19 and do not give in to the fossil fuel industry's 

20 money. We need a long-term bold plan that 

21 enables us to lead at home and abroad. Increase 

22 emissions reductions targets, raise the bar. 

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1 Thank you.

2 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

3 MS. TELLINGHUISEN: Good afternoon. My 

4 name is Stacey Tellinghuisen, T-e-l-l-i-n-g-h-u5 i-s-e-n.

6 I work for Western Resource Advocates, a 

7 conservation organization working to protect the 

8 west's air, water, and landscapes and the 

9 communities that depend on them. 

10 If you take one key point away from my 

11 testimony today it is this, Western Resource 

12 Advocates has analyzed Colorado, New Mexico and 

13 Nevada's current energy policies and finds that 

14 these three states will be very close to 

15 achieving EPA's proposed 2030 targets. 

16 In fact, in Colorado and New Mexico, 

17 policies already in place will accomplish over 80 

18 percent of what EPA standard requires. 

19 In Nevada with existing policies and 

20 plans, the state and main utility will have 

21 little if anything else to do to meet EPA's 

22 proposed requirements, and that's summarized from 

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1 the graph in front of me. 

2 Let me back up. Earlier this year the 

3 U.S. released the fourth national climate 

4 assessment. In the southwest the litany of 

5 impacts described in the assessment is daunting 

6 including hotter summers, more frequent and 

7 intense droughts, increased wildfires along with 

8 the secondary impacts on human health and 

9 environmental resilience. 

10 One of the report's key conclusions was 

11 the southwest is already experiencing the impacts 

12 of climate change. For those of us living in the 

13 region, that conclusion rings true. For these 

14 reasons EPA's proposed clean power plan is of 

15 critical importance. Western Resource Advocates 

16 believes EPA's proposed standards for greenhouse 

17 gas emissions from existing power plants are 

18 essential for protecting our natural resources 

19 and our health and our western way of life. The 

20 regulations are thoughtful, fair, and rigorous, 

21 and consistent with the specific requirements of 

22 Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act. 

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1 We appreciate the work that EPA has put 

2 into developing these important regulations. And 

3 while we expect to submit more specific written 

4 comments to EPA at a later date, Western Resource 

5 Advocates believes the regulatory framework EPA 

6 has established is very workable and that the 

7 regulations are on solid technical and legal 

8 footing. 

9 Moreover, we believe the regulations come 

10 at a critical time given the pressing nature of 

11 climate change we urge you to maintain your 

12 proposed adoption and implementation schedule. 

13 To further explain my opening point, in 

14 the west many states and utilities have already 

15 been taking the the initiative to advance clean 

16 energy and prove energy efficiency and transition 

17 the most carbon intensive power plants to cleaner 

18 sources of energy. Key stakeholders including 

19 our utilities, state agencies, health and 

20 environmental advocates have worked together to 

21 pursue creative, workable solutions. Those 

22 solutions have helped us meet other Clean Air Act 

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1 requirements to reduce mercury, air toxics and 

2 regional haze. Those solutions protect our 

3 community's air quality and health and have 

4 protected electricity customers from untenable 

5 rate increases.

6 For example, Colorado's Clean Air Clean 

7 Jobs Act, Nevada's Senate Bill 123, and New 

8 Mexico's recent plans to advance the retirement 

9 of a portion of San Juan generating station put 

10 these three states in an excellent position to 

11 meet the standards and are moving those states 

12 toward a lower carbon footprint. 

13 And all five southwestern states in the 

14 four corners region have energy efficiency 

15 programs in place to further reduce the 

16 environmental impacts of our energy needs. 

17 These policies have put western states 

18 well on their way to meeting EPA's proposed 

19 standards. In fact, WRA assessed the likely 

20 emissions trajectory of the three states of 

21 Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico. These are the 

22 three states that have taken a proactive approach 

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1 to addressing environmental issues and greenhouse 

2 gas emissions and those efforts have served them 

3 well. 

4 Our analysis finds that if Colorado and 

5 New Mexico simply follow through on what they're 

6 planning to do anyway under current policies, 

7 both states will accomplish over 80 percent of 

8 EPA's standard.

9 In Nevada, by implementing current 

10 policies as already planned, the state will need 

11 to take few additional actions, if any, to meet 

12 EPA's standard. 

13 So, again, if you take only one point 

14 away from my testimony today, it is this, western 

15 states have proactively addressed this issue and 

16 are well prepared to meet EPA's standard on the 

17 reasonable timeframe EPA has proposed. While 

18 there's more to do over time and Colorado and New 

19 Mexico as well as several other states in the 

20 region our history shows that western 

21 stakeholders can and will come together to find 

22 workable low-cost practical solutions that 

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1 protect our communities, our economies, our jobs, 

2 and our environment. 

3 We appreciate EPA's willingness to 

4 provide states with significant flexibility to 

5 comply with these regulations in ways that make 

6 local sense.

7 But most importantly EPA's proposed 

8 regulations are a vital step towards managing our 

9 greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing emissions is 

10 critical to protecting our communities as well as 

11 the rivers, farmland, forests and landscapes that 

12 define the west.

13 Thank you for this important work.

14 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Our next two 

15 commenters, Larry Grim, Eric Larson.

16 So, you are?

17 MR. GRIM: Larry Grim, do I get ten 

18 minutes?

19 MR. DAILY: Larry Grim. Eric Larson? 

20 Second call. Okay. So, Mr. Grim if you would 

21 like to go ahead and proceed.

22 MR. GRIM: Oh, sure. Well, thank you 

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1 very much for listening. That's quite a feat you 

2 all take on to open your hearts and minds to such 

3 a variety of insights and perspectives. 

4 I'm Larry Grim, I'm a Presbyterian 

5 minister work and assisting a congregation on 

6 Capital Hill here and also a cofounder of 

7 Creation Care Ministries, my own ministry of 

8 enabling congregations to address climate change. 

9 And I have a message from God. 

10 "Dear Beloveds" she started off talking 

11 to all of us and she gets to EPA a little later.

12 "Dear Beloveds: I have birthed you from 

13 the beginning and I continue to birth you from 

14 generation to generation. I have given you 

15 everything you need to live. I put that toxic 

16 stuff underground for a reason, to protect you 

17 and the environment from its hazardous effects. 

18 I gave you everything you need for energy above 

19 ground, the wind, free flowing rivers, the sun, 

20 use these. You will fair a lot better. 

21 And there are some sources of energy 

22 above ground you haven't even seen yet, and 

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1 you'll find them. Fortunately you've matured 

2 enough to be able to use them and to use them 

3 wisely.

4 I'm tired of -- I created a system for 

5 each element so that the water could clean 

6 itself, so that the plants could renew the soil, 

7 so that the air could be refreshed. But I'm 

8 having trouble cleaning up your messes. 

9 I thought that black lung disease and 

10 asthma and cancers would be warning enough that 

11 these elements are toxic and not to be toyed 

12 with.

13 EPA, thank you very much for your 

14 assistance. Your clean power program I think is 

15 a good idea. It's better than nothing and some 

16 of my other nations are moving ahead much more 

17 quickly than you. You'll have to play catch up, 

18 but eventually the more rigorous it is, the more 

19 difficult it is to use these toxic elements, the 

20 more likely those who like to create energy will 

21 come over to my side. It is, after all, a 

22 battle, a battle for minds and hearts as well as 

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1 bank accounts. I will win, but I appreciate your 

2 help.

3 I want you all to live on that place you 

4 call earth for generations, and generations, and 

5 generations to come. I want you to live t here 

6 because, well, I love you. Signed the One Who 

7 Is."

8 Thank you very much for listening. 

9 MR. DAILY: Thank you, Mr. Grim.

10 Our next two speakers, I'll call Eric 

11 Larson again. Or Libby and I apologize if I 

12 misprounce, Chomo.

13 MS. CHOMO: Chomo.

14 MR. DAILY: Chomo. So, Ms. Chomo, if you 

15 would like to go ahead. 

16 MS. CHOMO: Thank you for the opportunity 

17 to express support for taking on the challenge of 

18 limiting the extent to which existing power 

19 plants can dump their climate-disrupting air 

20 pollutants into the atmosphere.

21 I am a Colorado attorney and member of 

22 the coordinating committee of the Loreto Work 

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1 Network, a faith-based public education network 

2 reaching almost 1,000 regular newsletter 

3 subscribers and many more through overlapping 

4 circles with whom we continually engage. 

5 We commend you on beginning this 

6 important work. We suggest that you consider 

7 some of the following practical realities as you 

8 shift through the many public comments you are 

9 receiving. 

10 Number one, the proposed rule seriously 

11 under estimate our nation's capacity to move 

12 quickly to a fully renewable energy economy. And 

13 I cite -- I have footnotes, you see them. I 

14 won't go into the footnotes. 

15 In the face of the climate emergency 

16 which exponentially accelerates as we speak, 

17 these rules should shape the more realistic 

18 direction of the rapid conversion to renewables.

19 Number two, the proposed rules seem to 

20 ignore the continuing climate impact of using 

21 natural gas as a bridge fuel. Those studies that 

22 say it burns cleaner in the power plant need to 

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1 expand their consideration to include the climate 

2 impact of the industrial process extracting 

3 natural gas accelerating in highly populated area 

4 especially in Colorado in all applications 

5 industry-wide. 

6 For example, a cradle-to-grave assessment 

7 of natural gas demonstrates the largely 

8 unreported fact that there is no overall 

9 improvement from a climate perspective when 

10 natural gas is substituted for coal. And for 

11 that I site the -- I believe it's what's called 

12 the Cornell Study and distinguish a more recent 

13 study that indicates that it's the newer 

14 construction of the power plants that rely on 

15 natural gas, therefore using newer technology 

16 that accounts for any perceived improvement in 

17 natural gas electrical generation compared to 

18 coal.

19 Keep in mind that the long-term public 

20 costs of coal are only recently being quantified. 

21 A Harvard study estimates $500 billion per year 

22 in public costs unreimbursed dumped on the public 

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1 by the industry including health impacts of the 

2 industry.

3 So as many years as we've been relying on 

4 coal as a fuel, it's only recently that we are 

5 able to see the economic devastation that it 

6 causes in its wake. The explosion in natural gas 

7 production in recent years has barely been 

8 studied for its health impacts and its air 

9 emissions. And early peer reviewed studies are 

10 concerning and I mention as an example Theo 

11 Colburn -- Dr. Theo Colburn who is generating 

12 studies about the health effects in peer-reviewed 

13 studies of natural gas production. These factors 

14 support a direction for the future that does not 

15 encourage reliance on natural gas and other 

16 climate harming source emissions.

17 Number three, the Fukushima experience 

18 has educated us to the risks of nuclear 

19 generation facilities in even the most 

20 technologically sophisticated societies. Who 

21 could have predicted the terrible tsunami that 

22 devastated the Japanese and sent nuclear 

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1 pollution into the Pacific Ocean and the world's 

2 atmosphere. 

3 Currently the explosion of natural gas 

4 production in population centers such as Colorado 

5 is associated with an increase in earthquakes 

6 never seen before. This increasing risk, as well 

7 as aging of nuclear facilities, and nuclear's 

8 long-term waste disposal quandary argues against 

9 encouraging nuclear facilities as backups for 

10 coal powered electrical generation. 

11 Therefore we strongly urge the EPA to 

12 strengthen incentives and requirements to move 

13 the country into the renewable energy era as 

14 quickly as possible. Sunlight is abundant all 

15 over the globe and available for power generation 

16 using current technologies as amply illustrated 

17 by Germany's performance. 

18 According to a recent publication out of 

19 Stanford University, rapid mobilization 

20 throughout the U.S. is affordable and can be 

21 completed replacing 80 to 85 percent of existing 

22 energy by 20/20 and 100 percent by 20/50 relying 

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1 solely on wind, water, and sunlight. 

2 Emory Levins, physicist at the Rocky 

3 Mountain Institute, has been making information 

4 along these lines available to the public for 

5 years as well. It is also significant that the 

6 renewable energy industry competes well with the 

7 fossil fuel in creating and maintaining jobs. 

8 Does that mean I have to stop?

9 MR. DAILY: No, you have about another --

10 MS. CHOMO: Thank you.

11 MR. DAILY: -- red -- you have a few --

12 20 seconds.

13 MS. CHOMO: Our country needs to face up 

14 to existing policies that make it difficult to --

15 MR. DAILY: You --

16 MS. CHOMO: -- financial markets of the 

17 past era to adapt quickly to the new economic 

18 reality forced on all of us by the climate 

19 emergency. Unless we find elegant and equitable 

20 solutions to these existing policies, their 

21 inertial momentum will continue to drive us 

22 headlong into the climate emergency.

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1 For policies that you can adapt within 

2 your field of authority, I urge you to do so with 

3 collaboration with other federal agencies and 

4 institutions if necessary. Please undertake the 

5 collaboration needed to get this more 

6 comprehensive job done. I'm talking about 

7 updating industries and financial markets and 

8 policies that regulate those across the board 

9 which are making it difficult for those 

10 industries to adjust quickly enough to help us 

11 change course as quickly as we need to.

12 Thank you. 

13 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

14 Our next two speakers, Harv Teitelbaum 

15 and Jackie Patterson. I'll let you decide. 

16 MS. PATTERSON: So my name is Jackie 

17 Patterson. In February of 2011 my father began 

18 to complain of a cough which worsened over six 

19 months until he was homebound and tethered to an 

20 oxygen machine. He was severely winded just from 

21 walking from the living room to the kitchen to 

22 get a glass of water. Dad's diagnosis was 

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1 pulmonary fibrosis. My father never smoked a day 

2 in his life. His doctor stated that the scar 

3 tissue in his lungs was likely due to 

4 environmental toxins from his workplace or 

5 otherwise. 

6 Dad spent 40 years of his life residing 

7 within ten miles of the Fiskin Cooperative Coal--

8 in Chicago. We laid my father to rest on 

9 September 12 of 2011.

10 How many more people must be buried 

11 before we are granted equal protection under the 

12 law?

13 Approximately 68 percent of African 

14 Americans live within 30 miles of a coal plant. 

15 The impact is clear in the rates of respiratory 

16 illnesses in African Americans. Even though we 

17 have lower rates of smoking, we are more likely 

18 to die of lung disease. Nationwide African 

19 American children are twice as likely to die of 

20 asthma and three times as likely to be admitted 

21 to hospital for asthma attacks.

22 We also see higher asthma rates within 

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1 Latino American and Native American populations 

2 who are also exposed to coal pollution. 

3 Carbon may not directly cause these 

4 health conditions, but it creates what scientists 

5 call domes that trap, concentrate, and intensify 

6 the other toxins we breath. With the mercury 

7 arsenic, lead, dioxins and other pollutants come 

8 from coal plants and communities nationwide, 

9 these domes are in effect creating lethal gas 

10 chambers for communities that are host to these 

11 facilities.

12 At the same time carbon dioxide is the 

13 number one driver of climate change and these 

14 plants are the leading source of carbon dioxide. 

15 Again, climate change affects us all, but 

16 its effects are felt hardest by communities and 

17 people are politically, economically, physically, 

18 and socially vulnerable.

19 When I did hurricane relief work after 

20 Katrina and Rita, the thousand of folks who 

21 walked through the door of the disaster recovery 

22 center in Houston were largely African American 

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1 and low income. 

2 I also met scores of people with hearing 

3 impairments, with no qualified interpreter to 

4 help them navigate the system. 

5 I encountered people with HIV and AIDS 

6 who went for weeks without access to their life 

7 preserving drugs. I met hundreds of people who 

8 had to completely start over after escaping only 

9 with their lives. 

10 And the scientists say that Katrina, 

11 Rita, Sandy the Colorado floods and more are only 

12 the tip of the iceberg. 

13 Growing up on the south side of Chicago I 

14 lived in a food desert. Like so many communities 

15 of color and low-income communities this means we 

16 had better access to Doritos or Cheetos than 

17 broccoli or strawberries. We already see how 

18 this plays out for communities who are suffering 

19 from high rates of obesity as well as hunger and 

20 all of the health conditions that result from 

21 poor diet such as diabetes, heart disease, high 

22 blood pressure, et cetera. 

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1 Affordable access to nutritious foods 

2 will only lessen as climate change affects crops. 

3 In recent years we've seen farmers in Illinois, 

4 Iowa, Mississippi and beyond lose crops both from 

5 flood and drought. And, again, scientists say 

6 we've only begun to see these impacts.

7 I visited coastal communities from 

8 Florida to Louisiana to North Carolina to New 

9 York, some of whom are already experiencing 

10 coastal erosion and several of whom are facing 

11 displacement in the next 20 years due to sea 

12 level rise and the storm surge. 

13 The cost of inaction on carbon pollution 

14 is the health, livelihood, culture, economic and 

15 social well being of communities worldwide with 

16 vulnerable communities hit first and worst. 

17 Therefore we need strong carbon pollution 

18 standards to slow the path to devastation on 

19 which we are recklessly traveling. Strong means 

20 that we aren't steering the ship from one 

21 disaster to another by myopically shifting to 

22 false solutions.

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1 Even if costly clean coal technologies 

2 were proven to effectively capture carbon, that 

3 wouldn't help the 76,000 coal miners who have 

4 died of black lung disease since 1968 or the 

5 folks who are drinking lead and selenium-laced 

6 waters contaminated by coal ash.

7 Shifting to fracking continues to emit 

8 carbon from venting and flaring, has been known 

9 to contaminate aquifers with its mysterious 

10 cocktail of toxins and may even contribute to the 

11 increase in seismic activities that is causing 

12 earth plates from Nebraska to Ohio and beyond.

13 The folks near the Fukushima Daiichi 

14 plant would certainly have a cautionary tale 

15 about increasing our reliance on nuclear energy. 

16 Particularly given that a number of America's 

17 nuclear reactors are built on earthquake fault 

18 lines. 

19 We must establish aggressive targets for 

20 pollution reduction and significantly increase 

21 our focus and action on energy efficiency and 

22 clean energy. The National Renewable Energy 

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1 Laboratory has found that we have vast amounts of 

2 solar, wind, and geothermal potential. Some of 

3 which is already being successfully harnessed 

4 creating new jobs. That's where we need to focus 

5 investments as we ship from harmful coal-based 

6 energy production processes. 

7 Finally, we must ensure that each state's 

8 development of implementation plans is done 

9 inclusively so that equity-based input is heeded 

10 and all stakeholders particularly communities 

11 that are most impacted by coal -- directly as --

12 indirectly through climate change.

13 Decades of pollution from coal plants 

14 have led us to where we are today, already 

15 experiencing catastrophic climate change and we 

16 must get the situation under control for all of 

17 our sakes.

18 Thank you. 

19 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

20 MR. TEITELBAUM: Hello, my name is Harv 

21 Teitelbaum, that's spelled T-e-i-t-e-l-b as in 

22 boy, a-u-m as in Mary. I'm an instructor in 

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1 environmental science. I'm also on the Beyond 

2 Oil and Gas team of the Rocky Mountain Chapter of 

3 Sierra Club. And I've also been the treasurer of 

4 the Colorado chapter of Physicians for Social 

5 Responsibility, PSR.

6 I'll be fairly brief. I know that a lot 

7 of the opposition to those rules which I thank 

8 you and I thank President Obama for enacting or 

9 proposing. A lot of the opposition will be 

10 economic. So I wanted to comment a little bit on 

11 the economics of coal and the economics of 

12 cleaning up power plants. 

13 There is a new group that's just been 

14 formed. I think it's a couple of mayors, 

15 including Mayor Bloomberg and some business 

16 leaders, I'm not sure what the name of their 

17 organization is, but they've come out with a 

18 study of the cost of climate change. And for 

19 Colorado they talk about reduced outdoor 

20 productivity from increasing temperatures and 

21 more volatile weather. They talk about shorter 

22 outdoor working hours. They talk about reduced 

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1 crop yields. And all these things in the long2 term will cost millions, if not billions of 

3 dollars. 

4 So when we compare the cost of not 

5 working on the climate to the cost of the climate 

6 change consequences, there's really no 

7 comparison. 

8 Right now the cost of coal fired plants 

9 are being externalized. Those costs in terms of 

10 health from mercury pollution to childhood 

11 development, the cost of acid rain from the 

12 sulfur emissions combining in the atmosphere to 

13 make sulfuric acid, all those costs now are being 

14 externalized to people living in the area of 

15 coal-fired plants. 

16 So who should be paying those costs? 

17 Should they be paid by the coal plant operators, 

18 or they should be paid by the citizens and 

19 civilians through higher health costs. 

20 I would also advocate for not replacing 

21 coal plants with fracked gas or with any other 

22 non-renewable fossil fuel. We have, as has been 

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1 mentioned many times here in this room, we have 

2 the potential for replacing coal plant energy 

3 completely with renewables by 2050. The blue 

4 print that's been put forward by researchers at 

5 Stanford University, sate-by-state blueprint not 

6 only would replace the non-renewable fossil 

7 fuels, but at the same time by doing so would 

8 increase the financial well being of citizens, 

9 the health of citizens and would create millions 

10 of jobs across the country.

11 I live in Evergreen and I live in a 

12 ponderosa forest. My house has not burned down 

13 yet, but I've been on preevacuation alerts a 

14 couple of times and during the summer usually we 

15 have to have a kind of an emergency package or 

16 emergency clothing and supplies and personal 

17 goods in our cars. We just spend the summer with 

18 a lot of emergency clothing and our valuables in 

19 the car in case we're put on evacuation alert in 

20 case we can't get back to our houses. That's the 

21 reality that we have to live with.

22 There will come a time, in my opinion, 

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1 when the ponderosa ecosystem, the lower Montaim 

2 forest will be replaced with Montaim schrublet, 

3 in my opinion. I think that that's coming due to 

4 the prevalence of wildfires up there. That there 

5 will be an ecosystem shift. 

6 I also climb trees in addition to my 

7 other work. I climb trees as a tree climber in 

8 Colorado. I take people up in the trees, kids, 

9 groups, just organizations, scouts, and so I'm 

10 very concerned with the health of trees. I 

11 notice through acid rain, I can tell when trees 

12 are dying on the top. I can tell when they're 

13 unhealthy. So all these things are important to 

14 me. And I would just leave you with this thought 

15 that I know you folks don't make policy 

16 yourselves, but think years down the road from 

17 now when you have, you know, kids, grandkids, how 

18 would you like them to -- how would you like to 

19 be remembered? What kind of decisions would you 

20 like to make now that you want to be proud of 

21 down the road. And you think about that and pass 

22 that along to your organization. 

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1 Thank you very much. 

2 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

3 The next two speakers, Brandon Cheshire, 

4 Chris Hoffman.

5 You're Mister?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Chris Hoffman.

7 MR. DAILY: Brandon Cheshire?

8 (No response.) 

9 MR. DAILY: Okay. Mr. Hoffman?

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you. My name is 

11 Chris Hoffman, H-o-f-f-m-a-n. I live in 

12 Colorado. I strongly support EPA's proposed 

13 rules limiting carbon emission from existing 

14 power sources. It's important to me that the 

15 final rule for clean power plant explicitly list 

16 a carbon tax as an option for states to comply 

17 with the rule. Ideally this should be a revenue 

18 neutral carbon tax with all revenues returned on 

19 an equitable basis to households as monthly 

20 dividends.

21 Among economics a carbon tax is widely 

22 accepted as the most economically efficient and 

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1 cost effective way to reduce carbon emissions. 

2 In a time when state budgets are tight, the most 

3 cost-effective option must be on the table as a 

4 mechanism for complying with the rules. Though 

5 directed at reducing CO2 emissions, carbon taxes 

6 can also help states earn compliance for other 

7 fossil fuel byproducts regulated by the EPA such 

8 as particulates, mercury, knox and sucks. 

9 When a carbon tax is revenue neutral, it 

10 can also yield a double dividend boosting the 

11 economy while also cutting carbon emissions. 

12 Modeling studies for California, 

13 Massachusetts, and Washington state have shown 

14 that a revenue neutral carbon tax will have a 

15 positive impact on the economy at the state level 

16 while also reducing carbon pollution. 

17 At the national level a revenue neutral 

18 carbon tax would have a correspondingly greater 

19 positive impact and this includes 2.8 million 

20 jobs added, $1.37 trillion added to the GDP, 

21 227,000 lives saved while cutting carbon 

22 emissions by 50 percent. 

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1 I have the references for the websites 

2 for this information on the sheet that I'll leave 

3 with you. These modeling studies are supported 

4 by the practical experience of British Columbia, 

5 Canada which shows that a subnational 

6 jurisdiction that adopts a revenue neutral carbon 

7 tax can lead in both economic indicators and 

8 carbon emission reductions.

9 The EPA should issue clear guidelines on 

10 the administration, implementation, price, and 

11 escalation rate for a carbon tax that would 

12 satisfy the requirements of EPA's new rules. 

13 Thank you very much for that work you're 

14 doing to make our world a better place. 

15 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

16 I'll call Brandon Cheshire again, second 

17 call.

18 (No response.) 

19 MR. DAILY: Next speaker Jonathan Cohen.

20 (No response.)

21 PARTICIPANT: Jonathan Cohen spoke this 

22 morning.

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1 MR. DAILY: Oh, he did. Okay. 

2 PARTICIPANT: (Off microphone.) 

3 MR. DAILY: Well, I'm sure we have other 

4 folks that are cued up. 

5 Okay. I'm going to call a short recess at 

6 this point. Anyways, we need to change the 

7 batteries in our microphones. So if we could 

8 take a ten-minute break and then I'll reconvene. 

9 Thank you. 

10 (Brief recess taken at 3:22 p.m.)

11 (Record resumes at 3:34 p.m.)

12 MR. DAILY: All right. I'd like to 

13 reconvene us. We have some more commenters 

14 scheduled. So, thank you. I'll call the next 

15 two names. John Gale, Robert Moss. You are 

16 Mister?

17 MR. GALE: Gale.

18 MR. DAILY: Mr. Moss?

19 Mr. Gale, please proceed.

20 MR. GALE: Great. Thank you for the 

21 opportunity to submit formal testimony regarding 

22 EPA's proposed clean power plan. My name is John 

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1 Gale and I'm here today from Arvada, Colorado to 

2 express my strong support for EPA's historic 

3 action to address climate change by setting 

4 limits on carbon pollution from power plants.

5 We have a collective obligation to 

6 protect fish, wildlife, water, and all of our 

7 natural resources for future generations. I'm 

8 the National Sportsman Campaign Manager for the 

9 National Wildlife Federation and I can say that 

10 habitat loss, fragmentation and degradation is 

11 posting one of the greatest threats to fish and 

12 wildlife today, and as a hunter and an angler, I 

13 applaud the EPA for taking action to address one 

14 of the most significant impacts to fish and 

15 wildlife habitat by attacking the root of our 

16 carbon emissions crisis.

17 The EPA's clean power plan is a major 

18 step in the right direction. This plan will help 

19 see the way towards a future in which we invest 

20 more in wildlife friendly sources of clean energy 

21 and work to improve our energy economy by 

22 investing in technologies and implementing 

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1 thoughtful national policies that protect our 

2 western heritage and the big landscapes and clean 

3 air and water that define out heritage. 

4 Outdoor recreation is a big part of our 

5 national identity and economy too. Each year 47 

6 million Americans -- did you get that, 47 million 

7 Americans head to the field to hunt or fish. 

8 Their spending on gear, food, lodging and a 

9 variety of other goods and services pushes a $200 

10 billion ripple through the economy each year; 

11 $200 billion, and supports over 1.5 million jobs. 

12 But climate change poses a direct threat 

13 to outdoor recreation. Hunting and fishing and 

14 other forms of outdoor activities are threatened 

15 by droughts, wildfires, and higher temperatures 

16 that impact fisheries, big game populations and 

17 our outdoor heritage across the state of 

18 Colorado. 

19 By reducing carbon emissions to combat 

20 climate change the clean power plan will help 

21 protect this vibrant industry. Americans are 

22 ready to do the right thing too. A June 2014 

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1 Washington Post ABC poll found that a huge 

2 majority of Americans support curbing carbon 

3 pollution from power plants, 70 percent say the 

4 federal government should have limits on 

5 greenhouse gas emissions from power plants and 63 

6 percent said they would be willing to see a 

7 utility bill increase of $20 per month to have 

8 them. Clearly Americans are asking for this to 

9 happen and they're willing to pay for it too.

10 Additionally, a National Wildlife 

11 Federation poll in Sportsman last year showed 

12 that 69 percent agree the U.S. should reduce its 

13 carbon pollution that contributes to climate 

14 change and threatens the fish and wildlife 

15 habitat that future generations depend on. 

16 As you all finalize this standard, I ask 

17 that you work to ensure that it achieves the 

18 deepest reductions possible by requiring states 

19 to develop and utilize more wildlife-friendly, 

20 renewable energy sources. Work with states like 

21 Colorado to strengthen standards that encourage 

22 more power to be generated from renewable sources 

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1 like wind and solar and invest in energy 

2 efficiency policies that reduce energy demand 

3 overall. 

4 I thank you for the opportunity to 

5 comment today. We look forward to working with 

6 you to finalize and implement the clean power 

7 plan. We hope that you will do everything you 

8 can to ensure it stays strong through the 

9 process. Fish, wildlife and the future 

10 generations that follow us are counting on your 

11 leadership and it's urgent that we act now. 

12 Thank you very much. 

13 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

14 Proceed.

15 DR. MOSS: I'm Dr. Robert Moss, M-o-s-s. 

16 Senior pastor of the Lutheran Church of the 

17 Master in Lakewood, Colorado, testifying on 

18 behalf of the Lutheran Advocacy Ministry of 

19 Colorado, a ministry of the Rocky Mountain Senate 

20 of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and 

21 I appreciate this opportunity. 

22 By denomination as well as my own 

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1 congregation I have a deep history of care for 

2 our environment both locally and globally. We 

3 recognize the responsibility we all have as 

4 caretakers of our environment, and we also 

5 acknowledge that as a human community we've been 

6 lacking in fulfilling that responsibility.

7 For us as Lutheran Christians, addressing 

8 environmental concerns is part of what it means 

9 to live as responsible caretakers of the earth 

10 and we're pleased to join this conversation from 

11 an economic, scientific, political and spiritual 

12 perspective as these are all aspects of joining 

13 God in God's mission of caring for and renewing 

14 the earth. 

15 I believe the support of the clean power 

16 plan proposed rule to regulate and reduce carbon 

17 emissions is part of our responsibility. CO2 is 

18 the most significant greenhouse gas causing 

19 climate change. And coal combustion causes 30 

20 percent of CO2 pollution. More than 70 percent 

21 of the electricity received in Colorado comes 

22 from coal-fired power plants, so we are a larger 

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1 producer of carbon emissions, and we are 

2 contributing to climate change. In addition to 

3 so many other reasons as to why this matters.

4 I want to remind us all that climate 

5 change is already affecting agriculture and 

6 therefore affecting food supplies and food 

7 prices.

8 Through no fault of their own 

9 impoverished people who are the most vulnerable 

10 because they rely solely on growing and selling a 

11 small crop for daily life or trying to procure 

12 enough food for a day or maybe even just one more 

13 meal are losing their ability to sustain 

14 themselves because of the changes in agriculture. 

15 Alleviating hunger and global poverty are 

16 major concerns for me as a person of faith. 

17 Carbon emissions directly and adversely affect 

18 the hungry and the poor about whom we care so 

19 deeply here in Colorado as well as around the 

20 globe. Continued climate change makes hunger and 

21 poverty issues an even large challenge for us to 

22 deal with.

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1 In the case of my own congregation in 

2 Lakewood, because of awareness of your agency as 

3 well as so many others, when aware that we're 

4 addressing hunger and poverty issues as well as 

5 helping those others most vulnerable to climate 

6 changes by reducing our own carbon footprints, we 

7 performed an energy audit to find ways to reduce 

8 our power needs. We changed all our lighting in 

9 the building to CFL and Halogen, we turned off 

10 water heaters that were rarely used, and 

11 eliminated high-energy appliances. Several 

12 households in our congregation now receive 

13 electricity through solar power, and our church 

14 building itself is solar powered.

15 And as of this morning, as I checked, in 

16 the time that we've been utilizing the solar 

17 power at our building, we've saved 55.3 tons of 

18 CO2 from being released into the environment. 

19 Which doesn't even include the pollutants 

20 produced from the mining, transportation, and the 

21 refining of the coal. Compared to the two 

22 billion tons of CO2 emitted annually by power 

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1 plants in the United States. Our 55 tons may not 

2 see like a lot, but every little bit does make a 

3 difference.

4 And the clean power plan will certainly 

5 have a real impact on reducing CO2 emissions and 

6 thereby saving lives, helping hungry and poor 

7 people in the United States and around the world, 

8 and bringing relief to millions of the vulnerable 

9 elderly and others with breathing difficulties.

10 It's my hope that the clean power plan 

11 will be one step in an ongoing movement of 

12 reclaiming our environment and thereby saving 

13 lives, saving the environment and improving 

14 health and sustainability for people here and 

15 around that world. 

16 Thank you for this opportunity to speak 

17 to this really important issue.

18 MR. DAILY: Thank you. If you could all 

19 bear with us for a couple minutes, we are 

20 actually going to change the batteries out in the 

21 microphones now and then I'll call the next two 

22 speakers up.

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1 (Pause.) 

2 MR. DAILY: Next two speakers, Pete 

3 Maysmith, Rebecca Cantwell. Mr. Maysmith?

4 MR. MAYSMITH: Sure. Okay. Thank you. 

5 Good afternoon and thank you for the 

6 opportunity to comment on this critical effort to 

7 tackle carbon pollution. My name is Pete 

8 Maysmith, I grew up here in Colorado and I'm 

9 currently the executive director of Conservation 

10 Colorado.

11 Conservation Colorado is a state-wide 

12 nonprofit that works to protect Colorado's 

13 environment and quality of life and we have 

14 offices throughout the say including in the 

15 northwest corner of the state in Craig, Colorado.

16 The EPA's clean power plan will, for the 

17 first time in U.S. history, and not a moment too 

18 soon, place safeguards on carbon pollution from 

19 power plants. It is a crucial step forward in 

20 the fight against climate change and I strongly 

21 support them. As the number one source of 

22 greenhouse gases in the U.S., it is due time we 

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1 as a nation start taking real action to reduce 

2 carbon pollution from the power sector. This will 

3 clean our air, fight climate change and enhance 

4 the state and national economy. 

5 Communities across Colorado are already 

6 seeing and feeling the impacts of climate change 

7 from increased health risks like asthma attacks 

8 and respiratory disease to the devastation of 

9 fires, floods, and droughts. 

10 Although we have protections against 

11 mercury, soot, and other air toxics, there are no 

12 limits on carbon pollution from power plants even 

13 though they are the single biggest source of this 

14 pollutant in the United States. 

15 Now, metro Denver is no stranger to air 

16 quality struggles. I grew up here and I have 

17 vivid memories as a boy seeing our infamous brown 

18 cloud and asking my parents what it was all about 

19 and their answer was that we had dirty air that 

20 day. I hated the idea of breathing bad air.

21 Now, we tackled the brown cloud in many 

22 ways. It was with the help of landmark laws like 

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1 the Clean Air Act. We rolled up our sleeves, we 

2 worked together to reduce the brown cloud's air 

3 pollution so we could again see our crystal clear 

4 blue skies that we love so much here in Denver 

5 and in Colorado and throughout the west. 

6 Today we face similar challenges. After 

7 our brown cloud success other parts of our air 

8 quality have worsened here in Colorado. Now, 

9 this is from the explosion in oil and gas 

10 drilling, it's from cars, but it's also made 

11 worse by more carbon being pumped into our 

12 atmosphere. The good news is that Colorado has 

13 started to take steps to do our part to reduce 

14 carbon pollution and greenhouse gases in our air.

15 For example, ten years ago Colorado 

16 became the first state in the nation where the 

17 voters said they want to get their energy from 

18 renewable sources like the wind and sun. Since 

19 then the state has three separate times increased 

20 and expanded our renewable energy standard here 

21 in the state. We've transferred our grids, 

22 energy next to cleaner fuel sources and advanced 

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1 some of the strongest energy saving measures in 

2 the entire west.

3 Now, what of all those nation leading 

4 investments and policies done to Colorado, well, 

5 we have one of the nation's most vibrant 

6 economies. Utility prices below the national 

7 average, and an ever burgeoning clean tech sector 

8 that last year contributed $15.5 billion to the 

9 Colorado economy. 

10 Colorado had led the way on reducing 

11 carbon pollution in a collaborative, practical 

12 way because it is the right thing to do. 

13 Colorado has a history of doing what is right 

14 when it comes to our families, our economy and 

15 our environment. We have shown other states and 

16 the nation how a combination of policies and 

17 investments in cleaner resources can cost 

18 effectively reduce carbon pollution while 

19 expanding our economy and protecting our health 

20 and our precious environment. 

21 The EPA clean power plan enables Colorado 

22 to build off of our successful and proven 

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1 foundation reducing carbon. Reducing carbon 

2 pollution is an opportunity to raise the floor on 

3 all that we have already accomplished here in 

4 Colorado. It is also a step towards leaving this 

5 earth a better place for our kids. And it is the 

6 right thing to do. Thank you very much.

7 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

8 Ms. Cantwell?

9 MS. CANTWELL: Good afternoon. My name 

10 is Rebecca Cantwell. I'm the executive director 

11 of the Colorado Solar Energy Industries 

12 Association. I'm pleased to speak to you speak 

13 to you today in strong support of the clean power 

14 plan. And I want to thank the EPA for all the 

15 hard work it took to develop this rule.

16 The landmark proposal to reduce carbon 

17 emissions from existing power plants offers a 

18 sensible approach to addressing global warming 

19 which is by far the most pressing issue of our 

20 time. The beauty of the challenge before us is, 

21 while it's not going to be easy to get there, the 

22 solutions are literally outside the door. 

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1 The sun beams down 300 days a year here 

2 in Colorado, the wind blows across our plains 

3 every day. These sources of proven, reliable, 

4 clean energy can power the future in a way that 

5 not only eases the threat of catastrophic climate 

6 change, but also provides jobs and economic 

7 development right here at home. 

8 Thus, we're pleased that the proposed 

9 111(d) rule allows states to take advantage of 

10 solar as part of a diverse compliance portfolio. 

11 We're also pleased solar is included in the 

12 definition of the best system of emission 

13 reductions as we believe solar has a large role 

14 to play in helping states reach compliance as a 

15 competitively priced CO2 offset. 

16 Nationally, this year alone, solar is 

17 expected to avoid 13.8 million metric tons of 

18 CO2. With the right policies in place, solar has 

19 the potential to offset a great deal more under 

20 the clean power plan. For me, the act is urgent. 

21 I'm a Colorado native. I love this magnificent 

22 state which you know is the inspiration for 

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1 America the Beautiful.

2 But last year, for the first time in 

3 memory, we had fatal wildfires followed a few 

4 months later by fatal floods. Increasing extreme 

5 weather events are mounting all around us and we 

6 know these impacts here and all over the world 

7 will continue to escalate causing political 

8 disruption and eventually threatening everything 

9 we hold dear.

10 Colorado is known as a clean energy 

11 leader and our policies have been a model for the 

12 clean power plan. Colorado still gets about two13 thirds of its electricity from burning coal and 

14 the plan would require that we clean up the 

15 state's carbon pollution about 35 percent from 

16 2005 levels. We really think the solar industry 

17 has a critical role to play. As we like to say, 

18 solar is the solution. 

19 Last fall the Solar Foundation did the 

20 most in-depth study ever of the economic and 

21 environmental impacts of the solar industry in 

22 Colorado. Just since 2007, after we passed the 

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1 renewable energy standard that Mr. Maysmith 

2 alluded to, the solar energy has created the 

3 equivalent of 10,790 jobs leading to employee 

4 earnings of over $534 million. The solar 

5 industry has generated economic output worth a 

6 total of $1.42 billion. It's been responsible 

7 for more than $24 million in environmental 

8 benefits achieved through avoiding the missions 

9 of pollutants. And generated savings of nearly 

10 300 million gallons of water which would have 

11 been consumed as part of traditional electricity 

12 generation.

13 Last year COSEA, my organization, 

14 announced Colorado's million solar roofs, a 

15 campaign setting a goal to increase solar 

16 deployment to three gigawatts by 2030, roughly 

17 ten times the amount of solar we have today. 

18 This program can become a key part of how 

19 Colorado will meet the emissions reductions of 

20 the clean power plan. We've mapped out a path to 

21 reach a goal, there's evidence all around us that 

22 it's achievable and becoming more affordable 

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1 every day. 

2 Just last week Colorado's biggest utility 

3 Xcel Energy announced it will buy the solar power 

4 from a new 156 megawatt solar project for 25 

5 years at rates competitive with the long-term 

6 price for natural gas generation. 

7 More than 20,000 Coloradoans have already 

8 made the choice to put solar energy systems on 

9 their homes and businesses. While supporting the 

10 rule, we believe it can be made stronger. In 

11 building block three on renewable energy the BSER 

12 is based on incomplete data. Solar capacity and 

13 market projections are already much higher than 

14 stated by the proposed rule. We also believe 

15 that EPA should include distributed generation 

16 solar and solar heating and cooling. Both these 

17 sectors are already playing an important role in 

18 the rapid expansion of solar. 

19 So I hope that we will get started 

20 immediately on moving toward a clean energy 

21 future. We've already lost too much time and we 

22 have many reasons to embrace the sunny future 

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1 with optimism. 

2 Thank you for the chance to talk with you 

3 today.

4 MR. DAILY: Thank you. The next two 

5 speakers, Thomas Pierce, Kim Tyrell.

6 Mr. Pierce?

7 MR. PIERCE: My name is Thomas Pierce, I 

8 work as an organizer for the Sierra Club, but I'm 

9 here today to speak on behalf of the American 

10 Indian movement. Our organization turned 46 

11 years old yesterday and we have members in all 50 

12 states and ten active chapters across the country 

13 in Indian country.

14 I am the cochairman of the American 

15 Indian Movement of Indiana and Kentucky which is 

16 home to the Pokagon Potowatomi band of Indians. 

17 We also pleasure to have a 13 percent 

18 asthma rate and a 27 percent unemployment rate in 

19 the coal fields of eastern Kentucky. 

20 Our great Chief Seattle of the Dkhu 'Duw' 

21 Absh nation once said, "Tribe follows tribe, and 

22 nation follows nation like waves of the sea, it 

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1 is the order of nature, and regret is useless. 

2 Your time at the cay may be distant, but it 

3 surely will come. And for even the white man 

4 whose God walk and talk with him as friend to 

5 friend cannot be exempt from the common destiny. 

6 We may be brothers after all, we will see."

7 The chief went on to say, "The earth does 

8 not belong to us, we belong to the earth."

9 In Kentucky and Indian we watch in horror 

10 as our sacred and ancient Appalachian Mountains 

11 are being torn apart by mountain-top removal. In 

12 Indian we are watching the devastation of strip 

13 mining destroy the things that are sacred to us. 

14 Coal mining operations in both states routinely 

15 demolish our sacred archeological sites and 

16 burial mounds because they stand in the way of 

17 progress. 

18 We support a strong, clean power plan 

19 that will begin to provide protections for our 

20 most sensitive communities and reduce the need to 

21 burn coal and fossil fuels. 

22 Kentucky and Indiana are inundated with 

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1 old, dirty fossil fuel burning power plants such 

2 as the Elmer Smith plant in Owensboro, Kentucky 

3 that is 49 years old. These plants are putting 

4 poisonous mercury, arsenic, and other toxic 

5 metals into our sacred Ohio River. It is our 

6 hope that you will write a plan that will force 

7 Elmer Smith to clean up its act. 

8 All of our waterways are sacred. We need 

9 a plan that will force those outdated coal plants 

10 to shut down and stop putting mercury and other 

11 poisons into our waterways. Waterways the fish 

12 we depend upon live in. 

13 All across Indian country we are being 

14 negatively impacted by climate change. In White 

15 Earth, Minnesota, where many of my family members 

16 live, climate change is threatening our most 

17 sacred resource, our minoma or wild rice is 

18 dependent on clean, fresh water. It is dependent 

19 on winter to provide much needed snow and ice to 

20 our rivers, springs, and lakes. 

21 Across the southwest drought is reeking 

22 havoc on every aspect of the environment. Our 

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1 forests, our rivers, our air, and most 

2 importantly, our people. In the northwest 

3 wildfires are ravaging the lands of our relatives 

4 along the Pacific coast. In the arctic, life as 

5 our people know it is vanishing forever as we 

6 watch the polar ice caps melt and the animals our 

7 people depend upon die away. 

8 Just two days ago President Obama said 

9 that the wildfires of the northwest were as a 

10 result of drought that has been brought on by 

11 climate change. That 400 square miles burned are 

12 our forests. The animals losing their habitat 

13 are our animals. The planet being destroyed, our 

14 planet. When will it stop?

15 We cannot afford to burn one more pound 

16 of coal or another ounce of gas. That balance of 

17 our future is at stake. We need a strong climate 

18 plan that will protect Indian country and all of 

19 our lands that have been taken from us as a 

20 result of an occupation that is now 500 years 

21 old. No treaties ever made with us have ever 

22 been honored. It is our hope that America will 

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1 at least enter into a treaty with the earth, a 

2 treaty that promises to stop destroying our 

3 mother earth and one that promises to preserve 

4 our ways of life. Indian country has borne the 

5 brunt of America's energy addiction long enough.

6 Our lands have been blown up by nuclear 

7 bombs, it has been poisoned by coal, uranium, and 

8 iron ore mining long enough. The Navajo, the 

9 Crow, the Piute strip mined and homes to massive 

10 coal-burning power plants, buried under coal ash, 

11 our waters polluted beyond belief, our people 

12 struggle to maintain our national sovereignty. 

13 This is, after all, our land and you are visitors 

14 to it. We cannot continue to sit and watch while 

15 tar sands are ripped from our under our first 

16 nation's brothers and sisters in the north, nor 

17 will we allow those pipelines to carry it across 

18 our lands in the south. 

19 Can I finish?

20 MR. DAILY: Yeah.

21 MR. PIERCE: We cannot allow our lands to 

22 be used for the destruction of our very way of 

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1 life. We will be acting and opposing any and all 

2 forms of mining, pipelines, or power plant 

3 construction that destroy our lands. So we 

4 respectfully ask you to impose a clean power plan 

5 that puts and end to the environmental genocide 

6 that America has wrought on this land, a land 

7 that was once a paradise, is rapidly becoming a 

8 wasteland of America's making and business people 

9 believe that when we travel to a place we should 

10 leave it better than we found it. We have the 

11 owner's manual to this hemisphere. We know how 

12 to walk on this land, in a way that does not 

13 destroy it. We are asking you that you learn how 

14 to better walk upon this land so that you do not 

15 harm it. 

16 So remember, the earth does not belong to 

17 you, you belong to the earth. Thank you.

18 (Applause.) 

19 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

20 Ms. Turrell?

21 MS. TURRELL: Hi, thank you for this 

22 opportunity to speak. My name is Kim Turrell and 

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1 I'm the Air Quality Programs Manager at the 

2 American Lung Association in Colorado. I am also 

3 the mother of a child with asthma. So I speak 

4 firsthand to the impacts of pollution on health.

5 Nothing is more dreadful than watching 

6 your child's body go completely limp because they 

7 are not getting enough oxygen. The trips to the 

8 emergency room when we watch helplessly as this 

9 little body is pumped full of drugs. The 

10 sleepless nights spent monitoring him to make 

11 sure he can breathe or being afraid every time 

12 that I send him to school or summer camp that 

13 he'll get sick and his symptoms will worsen.

14 I check the air quality index every day 

15 especially in the summer to know what we're up 

16 against. I have also watched my father, who grew 

17 up in Beaumont, Texas surrounded by oil 

18 refineries have to be put on oxygen 24/7. He has 

19 never smoked and he is an active and very healthy 

20 man. So this has been especially hard on him and 

21 on our family. 

22 In my role as the air quality programs 

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1 manager at the American Lung Association in 

2 Colorado, I spend a lot of time working in 

3 schools helping parents, teachers, and students 

4 understand the impact of personal actions on both 

5 the environment and their health. I have parents 

6 who are nearly in tears when they come to 

7 understand what is in the exhaust from our 

8 vehicles and what pollutants are being spewed 

9 into the air by power plants and industry. Many 

10 of them also have children with asthma or know a 

11 child with asthma and know how devastating and 

12 frightening it can be. 

13 It's especially frustrating when they 

14 know that there are things that could be done to 

15 reduce pollution, but they aren't being done. 

16 If you have ever been in the vicinity of 

17 a coal-fired power plant, you have seen and 

18 likely smelled the pollutants coming from the 

19 smoke stack. Political dogma aside, doesn't 

20 common sense tell you that what's coming out of 

21 those smoke stacks cannot be good for us. 

22 Carbon dioxide is the primary greenhouse 

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1 gas pollutant and it is a well-known scientific 

2 fact that carbon dioxide traps heat. Warmer 

3 temperatures increase levels of ground-level 

4 ozone which exacerbate a myriad of lung issues. 

5 When inhaled ozone literally burns lung tissue. 

6 The EPA's clean power plan is a 

7 commonsense solution that will help move our 

8 nation away from high-polluting, electricity 

9 generation and will allow Colorado to take 

10 advantage of its abundant sources of renewable 

11 energy like solar and wind.

12 This creates jobs as industry R&D 

13 facilities and entrepreneurs come together to 

14 develop and implement newer, cleaner 

15 technologies.

16 I want my son to grow up in a country 

17 that values the health and wellbeing of its 

18 citizens above the interests of industry. I want 

19 him to grow up being able to run, hike, and bike 

20 and not have to worry about the the air that he 

21 is breathing. That's why I urge strong support 

22 for the EPA's clean power plan.

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1 Thank you.

2 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

3 Our next two speakers Elise Jones, Kurt 

4 Huber.

5 MS. JONES: Good afternoon. My name is 

6 Elise Jones and I'm a county commissioner for 

7 Boulder County and it's an honor to be here today 

8 representing Boulder County and providing 

9 comments on this historic rule.

10 I will start by expressing my sincere 

11 thanks to the administration and the EPA for your 

12 leadership in creating this plan to cut carbon 

13 pollution.

14 Now only is this rule urgently needed, 

15 but it's also very achievable for Colorado. We 

16 strongly support the rule, but in Boulder County 

17 we of course have a few suggestions on how it 

18 might be strengthened, of course. 

19 Boulder County residents have long placed 

20 a high priority on environmental sustainability 

21 making it a guiding principle for our county. 

22 Since 1996 Boulder County has moved aggressively 

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1 to implement innovative and effective greenhouse 

2 gas emission reduction strategies. These include 

3 one of the first and very successful property 

4 assessment energy loan programs, adoption of 

5 progressively more stringent building codes, 

6 including our ambitious build smart regulations 

7 and a sustainable energy plan designed to reduce 

8 greenhouse gas emissions by 3.6 million metric 

9 tons of CO2 equivalent and to save more than $445 

10 million by 2020.

11 Guided by our energy plan and years of 

12 planning in 2011 Boulder County, in collaboration 

13 with the city and county of Denver and several 

14 communities launched one of the most successful 

15 models of demand side management also called 

16 energy smart service. 

17 In Boulder County alone through energy 

18 smart we've been able to reach 12,000 homes and 

19 3,400 businesses helping owners install 

20 efficiency and clean energy improvements. This 

21 program has not only helped curb our carbon 

22 emissions, but it's also been an enormous 

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1 economic driver for our county, supporting local 

2 energy contractors and investing $25 million into 

3 our local economy.

4 Based on its model and the success we've 

5 seen with it, we agree with EPA's conclusion of 

6 demand side management and energy efficiency as 

7 one of the building blocks of the state 

8 implementation plan. 

9 However, we recommend the EPA consider a 

10 2 percent savings target instead of a 1.5 percent 

11 target as proposed. This can be achieved with 

12 strong monitoring and verification guidelines and 

13 direction from EPA to spur new technologies as 

14 well as more permanent projects such as combined 

15 heat and power systems.

16 We also support EPA's focus on renewable 

17 energy generation and the development of 

18 renewable energy targets, but we think this too 

19 could be strengthened. EPA's own analysis of the 

20 impacts of this rule demonstrates that this 

21 regulation will not likely have a significant 

22 impact in increasing renewable energy generation 

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1 because the regulation place targets below the 

2 current renewable portfolio standards like 

3 Colorado's.

4 Setting a low floor for RPS states will 

5 not create enough of an incentive to move these 

6 states forward where they need to go. For that 

7 reason we believe stronger analysis and guidance 

8 would be needed here. 

9 And then with respect to redispatched 

10 natural gas capacity we strongly recommend that 

11 EPA fully analyze natural gas production 

12 practices to ensure that leaks in the production 

13 process do not negate potential CO2 benefits of

14 this provision. And again save Colorado's 

15 important work on this.

16 So while Colorado is considered a 

17 national leader in growing a clean energy economy 

18 and is therefore approaching this rule from a 

19 very strong position, we also want to ensure that 

20 the state implementation plan resulting from this 

21 rule really pushes Colorado forward and brings 

22 other states along. 

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1 Addressing climate change is the urgent 

2 imperative in our region where we are already 

3 experiencing the impacts of a warming climate in 

4 the form of more intense and more frequent 

5 droughts, wildflowers -- wildflowers? --

6 wildfires and extreme weather events. 

7 Indeed, my county is still recovering 

8 from the devastating effects of last September's 

9 catastrophic floods. We anticipate that the 

10 final price tag for this county infrastructure 

11 and recovery alone will be 200 million. And this 

12 disaster came on the heels of the 2010 four-mile 

13 canyon fire which at the time was the most 

14 expensive and destructive wildfire in Colorado 

15 history. 

16 So as ground zero to some of the most 

17 damaging weather events in our state's history we 

18 know firsthand how critical it is that we 

19 collectively work to reduce greenhouse gas 

20 emissions before the climate crisis heightens. 

21 We simply can't afford to wait. 

22 So thank you again for moving forward 

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1 with the clean power plan. 

2 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

3 MR. HUBER: Good afternoon, I'm Kurt 

4 Huber and I'm the executive director of the 

5 American Lung Association in Colorado. And I do 

6 want to thank you for taking the time to hold 

7 these two days of hearings here on the carbon 

8 pollution standards.

9 I am not an expert on coal fired power 

10 plant operations, but I do know that pollution 

11 generated by power plants makes people sick and 

12 can cut life short. 

13 We already know that ground level ozone 

14 and particulate matter pollution can cause 

15 difficulty in breathing, asthma attacks and 

16 premature deaths. Ozone pollution has been 

17 linked to limiting the growth lung function in 

18 infants which is a serious concern given that 80 

19 percent of a child's lung capacity develops after 

20 birth.

21 Actions that cut carbon pollution to meet 

22 the goals under this plan would prevent up to 

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1 4,100 premature deaths, and 100,000 asthma 

2 attacks in children just in the year 2020. And 

3 if we look at the year 2030, it would prevent up 

4 to 6,600 premature deaths and about 150,000 

5 asthma attacks in children. 

6 The American Lung Association is 

7 committed to fighting carbon pollution because it 

8 can help us save lives and improve lung health.

9 I do not personally have a lung disease, 

10 but I do like to hike here in Colorado, like many 

11 of us, and it does concern me to know that when 

12 we're partaking of hiking or exercise that 

13 sometimes we could also be breathing in things 

14 that are actually harmful to our health when 

15 we're trying to be more healthy. If it's of a 

16 concern just for regular people and athletes, 

17 it's certainly a concern for people with chronic 

18 disease or who are elderly, who are very young, 

19 or who live near to a coal-fired power plant. 

20 We urge the Environmental Protection 

21 Agency to set a final plan within a year that 

22 provides the strongest limits on carbon 

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1 pollution, anything less shortchanges our future, 

2 our health, and our children. 

3 Thank you. 

4 COL FABIAN: Thank you. 

5 Next two speakers, Dex Sloan, and 

6 Elizabeth House. Mr. Sloan.

7 MR. SLOAN: Good afternoon, I am Dex 

8 Sloan, the senior vice president at Arch Coal, 

9 Incorporated. I appreciate the opportunity to 

10 share the following comments in response to EPA's 

11 proposed greenhouse gas emissions for existing 

12 electric generating units.

13 By way of introduction, Arch is one of 

14 the largest coal producers in the United States. 

15 During 2013 we sold approximately 140 million 

16 tons of coal which represented about 14 percent 

17 of total U.S. coal supply.

18 We employ more than 5,000 people and 

19 produce coal from mines located in seven states, 

20 shipping over 80 percent of our production to 

21 U.S. power generators.

22 The transformation of our goal into a 

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1 low-cost, stable flow of electricity is a vital 

2 national service. We are concerned that EPA's 

3 proposed regulations will diminish coal's 

4 essential role in the nation's energy mix and in 

5 the process result in additional costs to U.S. 

6 consumers, a weaker national economy, and a less 

7 reliable power grid.

8 What will Americans get in exchange? 

9 Very little. The goal of the EPA proposal is to 

10 reduce the emissions of heat-trapping gases into 

11 the atmosphere. However, U.S. power plants are 

12 only responsible for about 4 percent of such 

13 emissions. If finalized, the proposed rule would 

14 reduce global GHG emissions by less than 1 

15 percent at a cost projected by the agency of $4.2 

16 to 8.8 billion per year. 

17 EPA further estimates that its proposed 

18 rule will increase electric rates by 6 to 7 

19 percent nationally. It's unclear whether those 

20 estimates will prove optimistically low. What is 

21 clear is that states that rely heavily on coal 

22 for power generation particularly those in 

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1 America's industrial heartland will be hit much 

2 harder. 

3 It's also important to recognize that 

4 rate increases will fall disproportionately on 

5 the least advantaged economically, those who pay 

6 proportionately more of their income for energy. 

7 And the increases will place a significant burden 

8 on U.S. businesses that compete in world markets, 

9 businesses for which low-cost energy is a 

10 critical operating advantage. 

11 The remarkable reliability of America's 

12 power grid could prove another casualty of the 

13 proposed rule. The power supply in the U.S. is 

14 reliable because of adequate, non-intermittent, 

15 base load generating capacity, capacity fueled 

16 predominantly by coal. 

17 The risk of the effort to shift away from 

18 coal is exacerbated by the fact that already 

19 promulgated regulations are expected to result in 

20 the closure of up to 20 percent of America's 

21 installed coal-based capacity over the next five 

22 years even without EPA's proposed greenhouse gas 

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1 regulations.

2 To put our foot on the regulatory 

3 accelerator now before know how the power system 

4 will react, such a significant closure event 

5 seems ill advised, imprudent and unwise. It is 

6 also worthwhile to consider the permissibility 

7 and feasibility of what EPA is proposing.

8 Arch believes that Section 111(d) 

9 provides EPA with narrow authority to set 

10 emission standards based solely on emissions 

11 reductions that can be achieved inside the fence 

12 line. As such, only the reductions resulting 

13 from actions taken under EPA's proposed building 

14 block one may lawfully be recognized. Building 

15 blocks two through four, as proposed by the 

16 agency, are outside the fence line and the agency 

17 does not have the expansive statutory authority 

18 to recognize them as the best system of emission 

19 reduction.

20 Even if permissible, it is not at all 

21 clear that it is feasible for states to meet the 

22 proposed required emissions reductions. Under 

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1 building block one, EPA posits that a 6 percent 

2 improvement in heat rate is possible with 4 

3 percent coming from adopting operating and 

4 maintenance best practices. EPA presumes that 

5 plant operators do not already run and maintain 

6 their facilities according to best practices so 

7 as to minimize unit power production costs. That 

8 seems illogical and unlikely.

9 The other building blocks seems equally 

10 ambitious and fraught with uncertainty. For 

11 example, building block two increased utilization 

12 of combined cycle natural gas plants presupposes 

13 that pipeline and other infrastructure is 

14 adequate or can be built to enable plants to 

15 operate at 70 percent capacity factors. 

16 Building block three assumes, among other 

17 things, a significant acceleration in the growth 

18 of renewables despite their intermittency.

19 Building block four assumes that states 

20 can achieve an annualized energy savings of 1.5 

21 percent without constraining or stalling economic 

22 growth. 

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1 In short the building blocks stack 

2 ambition on ambition and risk on risk.

3 In summary, EPA's proposal negligibly 

4 reduces greenhouse gas emissions, imposes higher 

5 costs electricity on U.S. households and 

6 industry, reduces the reliability of the grid and 

7 is neither permissible under the law nor 

8 technically feasible. For these reasons we 

9 respectfully request that the agency withdraw its 

10 proposal. Thank you. 

11 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

12 DR. HOUSE: My name is Dr. Elizabeth 

13 House and I'm speaking today as a concerned 

14 citizen and also as a representative of the 

15 Denver Chapter of Citizens Climate Lobby. CCL is 

16 a U.S.-based nonprofit working toward 

17 establishment of a federal carbon tax and 

18 dividend.

19 I want to start by telling you how much 

20 we appreciate your hard work and also for holding 

21 these hearings so that citizens like me may share 

22 our concerns. 

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1 Our society and our government tend to 

2 take a short-term view of events and to respond 

3 to the immediate concerns of special interests 

4 and constituents. Perhaps that's a human 

5 attribute to look at the short term.

6 But today you are addressing the most 

7 pressing issue currently facing our region, our 

8 nation and our world and you are taking the long 

9 view which is essentially in addressing an issue 

10 that requires immediate action and which will be 

11 affecting us for the foreseeable and the 

12 unforeseeable future. 

13 We are hearing a lot today in these 

14 hearings about losses, real losses that will 

15 affect many individuals and families as well as 

16 losses of corporate profits. The losses that 

17 concern me most are those faced by the coal 

18 miners as the pollution created by burning coal 

19 is increasingly recognized as unsustainably 

20 costly to our region.

21 The financial and human costs of carbon 

22 pollution are no longer deniable and we must 

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1 address those costs now. But we also recognize 

2 that there is a human cost to economic and social 

3 change. 

4 I'd like to talk today about gains 

5 because that's really what these regulations will 

6 bring to Colorado and our region. I would like 

7 to ask the EPA to explicitly list a tax on carbon 

8 in the final rules as one of the means by which 

9 states can reach compliance. Though a carbon tax 

10 would be directed at carbon pollution, it would 

11 also help states comply with standards for other 

12 fossil fuel byproducts like mercury, 

13 particulates, the nitrogen oxides, the sulfur 

14 dioxides. 

15 A carbon tax is widely recognized by 

16 economists both liberal and conservative as the 

17 most economically efficient and cost effective 

18 way to reduce carbon pollution. 

19 If all of the revenue collected by the 

20 tax is returned to households in the form a 

21 dividend then families will be protected from 

22 rising energy costs and the economy of the region 

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1 will benefit. Numerous studies including one 

2 recently conducted by the nonpartisan firm 

3 Regional Economic Modeling, Inc., have shown 

4 significant economic benefits in our region in 

5 terms of rising GDP and household income, a boost 

6 to small businesses developing clean energy 

7 technology and materials, reduced health costs, 

8 and thousands of jobs created in the clean energy 

9 sector. 

10 Now, revenue neutral carbon tax is a 

11 market-based solution that would reduce carbon 

12 pollution while benefitting families and the 

13 economy in the region. In a time of budget 

14 constraints, it's also the simplest and the most 

15 effective way to reach compliance with EPA 

16 standards. 

17 I respectfully request that the EPA 

18 include a state, revenue-neutral carbon tax in 

19 the final rule as one of the ways that states can 

20 comply with the new regulations. 

21 Thank you for giving me time to speak 

22 here today.

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1 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

2 Next two speakers, Chris Stanely, Lucinda 

3 Schneller. Lucinda Schneller. Gerrod Brown? 

4 Mr. Stanley.

5 DR. STANLEY: Thank you very much. 

6 Thank you very much for the opportunity 

7 to speak this afternoon. My name is Dr. Chris 

8 Stanley and I am here to echo all of the other 

9 comments that are in support of adopting tighter 

10 regulation regarding carbon pollution. Since 

11 2008 I have served on the council -- excuse me, 

12 that leadership council of the American Lung 

13 Association in Colorado and I am the current 

14 chair. 

15 The Lung Association's mission is to save 

16 lives by improving lung health and preventing 

17 lung disease. With that mission my fellow 

18 council members and I have worked and continue to 

19 work to help make the air cleaner and healthier 

20 for everyone in Colorado. 

21 I'm also a pediatrician and I've seen and 

22 heard about the impact that poor air quality has 

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1 on our health, especially the children of 

2 Colorado. 

3 For several years I've had the great 

4 opportunity to serve the state of Colorado on the 

5 Board of Health as well, focusing on public 

6 health opportunities across our state. I'm here 

7 today to tell you that we need strong carbon 

8 standards to protect the lung health of everyone 

9 in Colorado, but especially those who suffer from 

10 lung disease. 

11 Tens of thousands of people in Colorado 

12 have chronic or life-long lung disease that that 

13 can be serious, even life threatening. 

14 More than 461,600 of my Colorado 

15 residents have asthma, including 108,000 

16 children. We have a quarter of a million people 

17 diagnosed with chronic obstructive pulmonary 

18 disease, a lung disease that over time makes it 

19 harder and harder to breathe. They are a small 

20 group of the people who are more vulnerable to 

21 the impacts of changing climate in Colorado, a 

22 list that includes all children, not just those 

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1 with asthma and older adults including people 

2 with cardiovascular disease and diabetes. 

3 As a pediatrician I have seen how 

4 unhealthy air days impact a family from a child 

5 who cannot go to school because his asthma made 

6 him cough all night to the parent who lost a 

7 day's wages to stay at home and take care of 

8 their sick child.

9 The impact of addressing carbon pollution 

10 can help patients immediately. Steps to reduce 

11 carbon pollution will cut emissions of other 

12 toxic air pollutants including nitrogen oxides, 

13 sulfur dioxide and mercury, and it will also 

14 reduce ozone and particulate matter pollution 

15 across wide parts of the nation even beyond 

16 Colorado's borders. Cutting carbon pollution 

17 will remove pollutants that are dangerous for 

18 patients, my family, and frankly for them. 

19 I urge the EPA to adopt the strongest 

20 possible carbon pollution standards in the clean 

21 power plan to protect the public health now and 

22 in the future.

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1 Thank you very much. 

2 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Mr. Brown?

3 MR. BROWN: First, hello, and thank you 

4 all for the opportunity to speak here today. My 

5 name is Gerard Brown and I'm here to represent 

6 one of the states that is on the frontlines of 

7 climate change in the United States. 

8 As a recent transplant to Denver from 

9 South Carolina, I know all too well the effects 

10 that change is already having in one our 

11 countries' most wonderful regions. 

12 My testimony will primarily deal with the 

13 damaging effects climate change is and will have 

14 on my home state as well as delve into why these 

15 regulations are a small step in the right 

16 direction.

17 In the past century sea levels along the 

18 Atlantic have already risen a foot and are expect 

19 to rise another five feet by the end of the 

20 century. Communities along the coast are 

21 scrambling to build walls and protect against the 

22 inevitable damage that will be done to the nearly 

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1 $150 billion worth of infrastructure that lines 

2 the coast of South Carolina if this dangerous 

3 treatment continues.

4 This method, as I'm sure many of you 

5 know, will ultimately do more harm than good to 

6 the beaches that provide much of the tourism to 

7 the region. Climate change will also reduce the 

8 amount of fresh water resources available in the 

9 northern regions of South Carolina and could lead 

10 to droughts in the region. 

11 These places in peril include sites where 

12 some of my best memories were created. Hollies 

13 Island where I first fell in love with the ocean, 

14 Myrtle Beach where my little cousin said her 

15 first words, and Charleston where my family 

16 frequently has family reunions, are just a few 

17 places that will be dramatically changed for the 

18 worse without the steadying hand of the EPA and 

19 the regulations they have proposed.

20 As a young person, I have many more 

21 memories left to make. I don't want them to be 

22 about the hardships climate change will bring, 

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1 but instead I'm here speaking today because I 

2 want future generations to experience the wonders 

3 this world has to offer. Without these EPA 

4 regulations, the future of my beloved home state 

5 and a good portion of the southeast looks 

6 extremely grim. These regulations strike a very 

7 important balance between both sides of the 

8 debate by giving states, and by extension the 

9 people, the freedom to decide how they would make 

10 meaningful progress towards cutting carbon 

11 emissions.

12 The science is very clear and we need to 

13 act. The future of South Carolina hangs in the 

14 balance and these rule acknowledge that while 

15 maintaining the agency that local communities 

16 currently have.

17 So, please, I urge the EPA to move 

18 forward with these regulations and to help 

19 preserve our country before it's too late. Thank 

20 you. 

21 MR. DAILY: Thank you. I'll call Lucinda 

22 Schneller again and Teresa Terry, and I apologize 

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1 if I mispronounce. Teresa Terry? Okay. Debra 

2 Shanaman? I apologize. 

3 Ms. Schneller.

4 MS. SCHNELLER: Hi, my name is Lucinda 

5 Schneller. And I am here today with Colorado 

6 Moms Knows Best. A group of moms dedicated to 

7 protecting Colorado outdoors for the future of 

8 our kids' health.

9 I have lived in Colorado for over 50 

10 years and graduated from CU Denver with a degree 

11 in civil engineering. I spent my entire career 

12 in government service with three different 

13 agencies. As one of those damned engineers, I 

14 worked with the Bureau of Reclamation as a 

15 designer in concrete dams. I went on to manage 

16 multi-million dollar projects and construction 

17 projects for the Fish and Wildlife Service. 

18 The most rewarding job was with the U.S. 

19 Forest Service Job Corps program. As a program 

20 manager I provided engineering support for 28 Job 

21 Corps centers located throughout the United 

22 States. However, the most absolute most 

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1 challenging job I ever had is being a mother. 

2 And this job continues to become even more 

3 challenging.

4 I come here today in full support of the 

5 the EPA's proposed clean air standards and the 

6 work you are doing to protect my family. It 

7 seems reasonable and obvious that we place a 

8 clear national limit on excessive carbon 

9 emissions and actively combat against heat 

10 stress, air integrity, extreme weather and the 

11 numerous problems that will arise from their 

12 effects. 

13 As a mother I am not willing to sacrifice 

14 the health of our children for the profits of 

15 energy companies putting the bottom line over 

16 that of our children's health is unconscionable. 

17 I am looking forward to being a 

18 grandmother some day, but my kids worry about 

19 having a family because of the environmental 

20 uncertainties. They are unsure if a future in 

21 Colorado will continue to be a safe place to 

22 raise a family.

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1 Not only is my -- I have two sons -- not 

2 only is my older son, Tyson, concerned about 

3 raising kids in poor environmental conditions, he 

4 is also deeply concerned for the fate of his 

5 livelihood as an organic farmer. He has been an 

6 organic farmer in the small town of Paonia on the 

7 western slope of Colorado for nearly a decade. 

8 He sells much of high-quality produce around the 

9 western slope and mostly to his established 

10 customers. He has witnessed the effects of 

11 extreme hot weather as his yearly supply of the 

12 most important resource for growing produce is 

13 increasingly becoming less available, that's 

14 water.

15 Our food producers are critical to our 

16 health and producers like my son Tyson wait with 

17 uncertainty every winter to see whether or not 

18 there's enough snowfall to support their crops. 

19 He has seen first hand the painful drought that 

20 hit Colorado two years ago when he was not able 

21 to adequately supply his customers with all the 

22 produce they needed.

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1 As parents my husband and I have always 

2 done our best to keep our family healthy by 

3 eating properly, exercising, seeking health care 

4 when needed and so forth. But now no matter how 

5 responsible or meticulous our family is about 

6 maintaining strong health practices, our health 

7 is in jeopardy from actions of others. We are 

8 simply asking that my kids and my future 

9 grandkids are able to breathe healthy, clean air, 

10 something I used to take for granted.

11 Your recommended carbon emissions 

12 standards are reasonable steps to protect our air 

13 for future generations. Thank you for your 

14 efforts and for giving us the opportunity to 

15 speak up about why this matters to Colorado.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

18 MS. SHANAMAN: My name is Debra Shanaman. 

19 I am the Environmental Services and Compliance 

20 Director for the Platt River Power Authority in 

21 Fort Collins, Colorado. 

22 I want to thank you for the opportunity 

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1 to comment today on the important issue of carbon 

2 emissions. Platt River Power Authority is a 

3 political subdivision of the state of Colorado. 

4 Platt River was formed by the municipalities of 

5 Estes Park, Fort Collins, Longmont and Loveland. 

6 And we provide wholesale power to these 

7 communities. Like the municipal utilities we 

8 serve, Platt River is a nonprofit municipal 

9 utility.

10 In 2013 the Platt River board of 

11 directors adopted a strategic plan to analyze 

12 diversification of our resource portfolio in a 

13 manner designed to reduce carbon emissions. The 

14 guidance from our board includes a 20 percent 

15 reduction in carbon emissions by 2020 and an 80 

16 percent reduction by 2050. Consequently the 

17 direction from our board tracks with the pending 

18 rulemaking. 

19 Although I've been immersed in this issue 

20 since June 2nd, as have numerous other staff 

21 members at Platt River, as an organization Platt 

22 River is still analyzing this complicated 

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1 proposal. 

2 We plan to make detailed written comments 

3 at a later date. In the time allotted today I 

4 will focus on two important concerns. 

5 First Platt River has serious concerns 

6 about how the four building blocks were analyzed 

7 to identify the emission guidelines for Colorado. 

8 Specifically we believe that Colorado is being 

9 unfairly penalized for being proactive in its 

10 approach to carbon emissions. By employing 2012 

11 as a starting point in its analysis, the EPA 

12 fails to credit much of what Colorado utilities 

13 did during the first decade of this century.

14 Let me give you one example. The first 

15 building block assumes 6 percent efficiency 

16 improvement at the generation source. Beginning 

17 in 2005 Platt River invested $16.5 million to 

18 improve the heat rate of Rawhide Unit One north 

19 of Forth Collins. These efficiency improvements 

20 were completed by 2009 and lowered the heat rate 

21 by 4.1 percent. 

22 Additional incremental efficiency 

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1 improvements are technically possible, but Platt 

2 River has already taken the biggest possible 

3 bite. Failure to recognize incentives that 

4 occurred prior to 2012 penalizes proactive 

5 utilities by disadvantaging them relative to 

6 utilities that have failed to address the issue.

7 Moreover, failure to recognize and credit 

8 concrete actions taken prior to 2012 results in a 

9 state target that is unrealistic.

10 Second, the proposed rule establishes an 

11 average emission rate for the period 2020 through 

12 2029. This is unnecessary and creates needless 

13 administrative difficulties. 

14 To achieve the 2030 emission goals 

15 additions and removals of generation assets will 

16 be a significant element of many compliance 

17 efforts. This is particularly true for Platt 

18 River Power Authority which does not operate any 

19 natural gas combined cycle generation.

20 Changes in the makeup of a resource 

21 portfolio take a long period of time to plan and 

22 implement and are by their nature lumpy. The 

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1 commissioning or decommissioning of resources 

2 cerates significant issues associated with rate 

3 impacts and reliability. 

4 To the extent that the significant 

5 portfolio changes needs to be made subsequent to 

6 2020, it may not be possible to meet the average 

7 emission rates set forth in the proposed rule.

8 Simply put, the extensive nature of the 

9 changes required by this rule means that 

10 utilities may reasonably require a glide path 

11 longer than the time allowed between the 

12 finalization of this rule and 2020 to modify 

13 their portfolios. 

14 If left unchanged the rule will 

15 unavoidably penalize utilities that are 

16 undertaking bona fide, yet prudent, efforts to 

17 compliance through modification of their resource 

18 portfolios that necessarily extend beyond 2020.

19 Platt River suggests that the EPA set a 

20 reasonable emissions goal for 2030 and trust the 

21 states to develop reasonable compliance plans to 

22 achieve reductions rather than specifying fixed 

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1 interim requirements, the effect of which may be 

2 to complicate compliance. 

3 In summary, carbon emissions are 

4 significant issue. It is reasonable to expect 

5 electric utilities to assist in meeting the 

6 challenge involved in curbing carbon emissions. 

7 But to ensure the smoothest possible 

8 implementation the final rule must be perceived 

9 as fair and subject to effective, but flexible 

10 implementation by the states. 

11 Not only must past efforts be recognized 

12 and taken into account, but it's also important 

13 to ensure that the final rule avoids 

14 implementation pitfalls that fail to recognize 

15 the practical realities of resource portfolio 

16 management and reliable utility operation.

17 Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

18 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

19 Our next speakers Teresa Paterry, Ivor 

20 Douglas. Ms. Paterry?

21 MS. PATERRY: Yes, ready to start?

22 MR. DAILY: Yes, please.

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1 MS. PATERRY: Okay. Cool All rightey. 

2 To whom it may concern: Thank you for speaking 

3 with me today. My name is Teresa Paterry and I 

4 was born and raised in Florida. 

5 I'm a rising senior at Hamilton College 

6 in pursuit of a degree in psychology and 

7 communications. I am here today because change 

8 can be accomplished initially at a local level 

9 and the EPA's proposal to give states the power 

10 to enforce reductions in carbon emissions is a 

11 step in the right direction.

12 I am here in support of the proposal, not 

13 only as a member of the millennial generation as 

14 we are the generation that has to deal with 

15 climate change, but also as a first generation 

16 American. 

17 I have been fortunate to attend school in 

18 New York. Fulfill internships in Boston, and 

19 currently in Colorado. I've experienced strange 

20 and extreme weather patterns in these regions as 

21 the years have progressed and believe we have the 

22 power to make a positive change. 

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1 Today my family lives just ten feet above 

2 sea level. Hurricane seasons have always been a 

3 part of our lifestyle as I was born during the 

4 aftermath of horrendous Hurricane Andrew. 

5 My parents had to take care of two 

6 toddlers and me, a new born, for three weeks 

7 without any electricity or clean water. But 

8 that's just how it was for us. It was Florida, 

9 not the past tense. 

10 My friends and I relished in our 

11 hurricane breaks as we took advantage of the cool 

12 front -- for bonfires in our school breaks. 

13 Growing up storms have decreased significantly 

14 and instead are now destined towards the 

15 northeast. Despite the break in storms, the 

16 rises in sea level, an increase in flooding has 

17 become apparent, which is scary.

18 In fact, this extreme weather has moved 

19 up the coast along with me and is very concerning 

20 for the eastern seaboard. Freshman year, upstate 

21 New York was hit by a tropical storm. The 

22 anxiety shared by my friends from the northeast 

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1 caused me to open my eyes to the mass changes in 

2 weather patterns we noted the lack of preparation 

3 for these type of events.

4 Sophomore year Hurricane Sandy was 

5 destined to hit us head on but changed its path 

6 last minute. Unfortunately, New Jersey and parts 

7 of New York City are still dealing with the 

8 storm's aftermath.

9 My friend's garage was flooded and she 

10 lost two cars as a result.

11 I mention all of these extreme weather 

12 events because they have been so disruptive 

13 deadly, and costly. But this is just the 

14 beginning because if we do not take any action, 

15 these extreme weather patterns will become more 

16 frequent and drastic. 

17 Back in Florida we are experiencing the 

18 most rain in recent months than ever before. 

19 Today we are experiencing a rise in sea level. 

20 My home, since I came home from the hospital, 

21 holds many memories and as I mentioned is only 

22 ten feet above sea level. Please, we need to 

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1 make a positive change or else all that I have 

2 ever known will soon be under water.

3 Our print on this earth may be 

4 irreversible, but help our generation take a 

5 stand and make a difference. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

8 DR. DOUGLAS: Good afternoon, my name is 

9 Dr. Ivor Douglas. I'm the chief of pulmonary 

10 sciences, in other words, lung medicine and 

11 critical care medicine, at Denver Health Medical 

12 Center where I'm also the Director of the Medical 

13 Intensive Care Unit and I'm a professor of lung 

14 and intensive care medicine at the University of 

15 Colorado. 

16 I speak today in my role as the Chair of 

17 the American Thoracic Society where I am the 

18 chair of the health policy committee. The 

19 American Thoracic Society is a large professional 

20 society of over 14,000 physicians, scientists, 

21 nurses, and health professionals including

22 specialists in lung, critical care, and sleep 

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1 medicine and we are responsible amongst our 

2 specialties for advancing the science and the 

3 care and well being of patients suffering from 

4 those diseases related to the lung and the 

5 respiratory system and critical illnesses. And I 

6 will speak to some of those as they relate to the 

7 focus of this presentation.

8 American Thoracic Society wishes to 

9 express very sincere and strong support for the 

10 EPA's proposed carbon emissions standards for 

11 power plants and we greatly value and appreciate 

12 the EPA's presentational opportunity to discuss 

13 these here today. 

14 The research documenting the reality of 

15 climate change is comprehensive and compelling. 

16 The evidence that supports anthropogenic 

17 contributions to climate change is equally clear 

18 and incontrovertible.

19 As a practicing clinician I've already 

20 seen some of the health effects of global change 

21 right here in Denver and I want to speak to two 

22 examples of that that are substantive and seen in 

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1 increasing numbers of cases over the last 

2 decades. 

3 The first is the most tangible, the early 

4 arrival of spring is impacting health and 

5 wellbeing for those who have allergies and even 

6 asthma. The high summer temperatures and the 

7 accompanying code orange and code red air 

8 pollution days adversely affect patients with 

9 many lung diseases, but particularly those with 

10 asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease of 

11 which emphysema, smoking related, is frequently 

12 worsened, and other respiratory conditions. We 

13 absolutely in my intensive care unit have seen a 

14 pattern that has become amplified earlier and 

15 earlier whereby as the early spring high pollen 

16 related directly to global warming and carbon 

17 emissions comes through and a large number of 

18 patients with underlying asthma that otherwise 

19 may have been well controlled become particularly 

20 unstable, become very unwell, and some of them 

21 develop breathing failure requiring critical 

22 care.

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1 Exposure to agents including PM10s, 

2 particulate matters, as well as environmental 

3 changes have been established in the scientific 

4 literature to be causatively associated with 

5 those exacerbations of asthma. A second aspect 

6 relates to environmental warming with an aging 

7 population particularly in areas where there is 

8 an increasing micro internal migration of 

9 populations of older aged and Denver in Colorado 

10 is a good example of that. 

11 We see an increasing number of older 

12 Americans who are exposed to heated environments 

13 of greater and greater amounts who are less and 

14 less capable to regulate their body temperature 

15 and by the year the number of cases are 

16 increasing directly related to environmental 

17 warming as associate with carbon emissions in our 

18 environment. These patients have a high 

19 mortality rate and frequently require critical 

20 care support for those illnesses. 

21 While my observations are partially 

22 anecdotal, they're well supported by the 

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1 scientific literature and fit a patter of 

2 predicted adverse health impacts associated with 

3 climate change.

4 The American Thoracic Society recently 

5 published in our journal, the proceedings of the 

6 American Thoracic society a copy of which I will 

7 submit for the record, a workshop report entitled 

8 "Respiratory Health, Effects of Global Climate 

9 Change." I will leave for the Commission's later 

10 review that the workshop report explores 

11 respiratory health effects of global climate 

12 change which include the following items, the 

13 changing pollen releases and their direct impact 

14 on asthma and allergic rhinitis, heat waves 

15 causing critical care related illnesses, climate 

16 driven air pollution changes, decertification 

17 including particulate matter increases directly 

18 related to global warming, and climate related 

19 changes in food and water security impacting 

20 infectious respiratory diseases through 

21 malnutrition.

22 Because of the strength of the existing 

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1 data from multiple scientific disciplines, trends 

2 in weather patterns, sea temperatures, and ice 

3 measurements around the globe, and the breadth 

4 and severity of climate force human health issues 

5 the American Thoracic Society strongly urges the 

6 EPA to move forward with the proposed carbon 

7 emissions limits from existing power plants and 

8 stands ready to support with the additional 

9 evidence of science the proposals of the EPA.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

12 Next two speakers, Rebecca Cohen, 

13 Dominion Barena -- or I'm sorry, Berrera. You're 

14 Ms. Cohen?

15 MS. COHEN: Yeah.

16 MR. DAILY: Let me call one more, Taylor 

17 Smith. Rachel Garfunkle. We may be getting 

18 ahead of ourselves. I'll let you go ahead, Ms. 

19 Cohen. 

20 MS. COHEN: Okay. Well, thank you for 

21 you for the opportunity to speak today. My name 

22 is Rebecca Cohen, I'm 21 years old and I'm from 

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1 Denver, Colorado.

2 I'm here today to support the carbon 

3 pollution standards. I support these standards 

4 because my generation is the group of people that 

5 will dramatically affected and will have to deal 

6 with the effects of climate change. These 

7 standards are the biggest step that the EPA has 

8 ever taken to fight climate change. 

9 Colorado has already done so much to 

10 fight climate change through our renewable energy 

11 standards. This state is a leader on the issue. 

12 And through these standards more states will 

13 begin to follow our example.

14 All summer I have been organizing young 

15 people to submit comment cards in support of the 

16 rulemaking. We ran into different types of 

17 people, many who were very excited about these 

18 new standards and a few who were adamantly 

19 against them. These are normal reactions when 

20 canvassing on an issue. But we talked to many 

21 young people who were very excited that there 

22 could be new standards. They knew that power 

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1 plants were a huge source or carbon emissions and 

2 wanted to do something about it.

3 Young people have bee ready for this kind 

4 of action on climate change for a long time. And 

5 our generation is well aware that this is just 

6 the beginning. We can bike to work, we can drink 

7 from reusable water bottles, and we can take 

8 shorter showers. But until there is true 

9 institutional change and enforcement, we will 

10 continue down this path of destruction. These 

11 new standards are the beginning to the 

12 institutional change that we need. Without these 

13 regulations or the ones to come after, my 

14 generation will be living in and raising families 

15 on a dangerous planet.

16 The extreme weather here in Colorado 

17 would mean more wildfires, bark beetles, and the 

18 destruction of the beautiful places I went as a 

19 kid. Without drastic changes, these places are 

20 not ones that I will be able to share with my 

21 children. It also means living in and raising 

22 new life and conditions that will cause many 

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1 health problems. 

2 I support these new carbon pollution 

3 standards because it's a great first step in 

4 making this planet a place that we will enjoy to 

5 live years from now.

6 We need to clean up the mess that we've 

7 made, or we're leaving it for future generations. 

8 These standards are a step in the right 

9 direction.

10 Thank you for your time.

11 MR. DAILY: Thank you. And you are?

12 MS. SMITH: My name is Taylor Smith.

13 MR. DAILY: Oh, okay. Thank you. 

14 Go ahead, Ms. Smith.

15 MS. SMITH: Howdy. Thank you for the 

16 opportunity to speak today. My name is Taylor 

17 Smith and I'm a resident of Houston, Texas 

18 working Colorado for the summer and attending 

19 Texas A&M University. I love my home state. I'm 

20 happy to admit that I'm a loud and proud Texan. 

21 And I've even more proud to be a Houstonian.

22 As much as I love my state though, I am 

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1 beyond disappointed with their standards in air 

2 quality and climate control. Texas has the 

3 highest carbon emissions within the United 

4 States. And with that being said, I am here 

5 today to show my support to the new EPA

6 regulations.

7 I'm here representing myself and the ones 

8 who will suffer from the destructive consequence 

9 if these are not implemented. 

10 In 2011 a major drought was declared in 

11 Texas and to this day 70 percent of Texas still 

12 remains in major drought conditions. As a lead 

13 official for an organization that administers 

14 long-terms camps and trips for the Boy Scouts of 

15 America, my campers and I have felt this 

16 directly. We have been very limited on our 

17 access to campsites and had to cancel multiple 

18 trips due to drought danger and burn bands. 

19 Also another contributing factor to the 

20 drought and also one of the worst impacts from 

21 climate change is the increasingly killer heat. 

22 And I mean that in the most literal sense. 

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1 Texas now has the highest heat death 

2 rates in the United States. Rates such as these 

3 will continue to increase as these extreme 

4 weather patterns continue, showing the true 

5 consequences of climate change. Consequences 

6 that will only worsen without action.

7 These consequences are having noticeable 

8 effects in Texas. But they can be noted across 

9 the board as a nation. In states all across the 

10 country rises in pollution, temperature and sea 

11 levels are being experienced by all American 

12 citizens. However, some states like Colorado 

13 have put measures into action to combat such 

14 things. 

15 I find much comfort in the fact that this 

16 beautiful state has taken greater steps towards 

17 using cleaner energy. I believe that climate 

18 change has the potential to be the most harmful 

19 occurrence to human life and earth. However, I 

20 have a lot of home in the fact that as humans we 

21 have the power to change this potentially 

22 cataclysmic run. And I believe that these new 

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1 EPA regulations are a great way to do so. 

2 I believe that my generation and our 

3 future families will be the ones to suffer these 

4 consequences of an unaddressed climate change. 

5 But I also believe that it's important to keep in 

6 mind that what we do in the present to revert 

7 back from the past will determine our future. 

8 These regulations have been the biggest 

9 move that America has made to address this 

10 undeniable issue and I'm eager to see these 

11 implemented. I am proud of the first step that 

12 the United States has taken towards bettering our 

13 environment for generations to come. 

14 Lastly, I wanted to be remembered that I 

15 am simply a caring and concerned citizen. I 

16 dread that these impacts will be detrimental to 

17 my future, my life and the future lives of my 

18 generation an their children. I hope that my 

19 testimony shows my strong support for these 

20 regulations and my hope for more to come.

21 Thank you. 

22 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

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1 I'll call a couple names. I've called 

2 before, Dom Berrera, Rachel Garfunkle, Alyssa 

3 Evans, Katrina Keller. 

4 Ms. Evans?

5 MS. EVANS: Thank you and good afternoon. 

6 My name is Alyssa and I am a student in Denver. 

7 I am here as a young concerned citizen. 

8 I came today to support the EPA's 

9 proposed rules because they provide our nation 

10 with a much needed step in the right direction in 

11 our global fight against climate change. 

12 These rules would encourage other states 

13 to follow the lead of states like Colorado where 

14 we have already made great strides in combating 

15 climate change through our own regulations. 

16 Colorado voters passed their own renewable energy 

17 standard ten years ago and restrengthened it in 

18 2010. And earlier this year Colorado became the 

19 first state in the country to regulate methane 

20 emissions from oil and gas operations. 

21 I follow this important rulemaking and 

22 know it will address the increasing threat that 

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1 air pollution here poses to our beloved 

2 environment and to our residents' health. 

3 Time and time again the state of Colorado 

4 has worked to reduce carbon emissions and has 

5 made an effort to transition to cleaner, more 

6 renewable forms of energy. However, localized 

7 efforts can only help so much. I have lived in 

8 multiple states and have experienced various 

9 effects of climate change. 

10 In 2012 I was caught in the lower 

11 Manhattan blackout with no running water for 

12 several days due to Hurricane Sandy.

13 While growing up in Hawaii, I witnessed 

14 the threats of ocean acidification to coral reefs 

15 that jeopardizes the local ecosystem and the 

16 tourism industry which is central to Hawaii's 

17 economy. 

18 Colorado too has seen some extreme 

19 weather and drought conditions increasing the 

20 chances of more and larger wildfires that will 

21 devastate the state. While I am happy that 

22 Colorado has taken strides to reduce carbon 

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1 emissions, improve air quality and utilize 

2 cleaner energy, I also know that these actions 

3 need to be implemented on a much larger scale.

4 Climate change is not limited to specific 

5 areas and thus we shouldn't limit our actions 

6 against climate change to specific areas. 

7 I'm here to voice my support of the EPA's 

8 proposed rules on reducing power utilities carbon 

9 emissions because I recognize that individual 

10 efforts are not enough and that these federal 

11 guidelines are necessary. Every state should 

12 have efforts to improve air quality, to increase 

13 power plant efficiency, and to transition to 

14 cleaner forms of energy. These proposed rules 

15 ensure just that.

16 As a part of a generation that will have 

17 to increasingly face the effects of climate 

18 change, I would like to urge the EPA to finalize 

19 and implement these rules to make a nationally 

20 unified effort to combat climate change. 

21 Thank you. 

22 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

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1 MS. KELLER: I am Katrina Keller. I am a 

2 22-year-old college graduate from the University 

3 of Montana. I'm from Chicago initially and I'm 

4 working with Environment Colorado this summer on 

5 their climate campaign and I'm a climate defense 

6 organizer in Fort Collins. So I don't really 

7 have anything prepared because I didn't actually 

8 reserve a time slot to speak until just now. 

9 So sorry that I'm literally drenched in 

10 water and don't really have anything to say 

11 besides I support the plan and I've spoken to 

12 literally thousands of people across the country 

13 in Fort Collins either when they're visiting or 

14 they're locals, or they're just -- they're on 

15 vacation. And I've spoken to thousands of people 

16 just this summer in the past two months and they 

17 have kind of overwhelming supported the plan on a 

18 really great scale. 

19 So you meet resistance kind of wherever 

20 you go, but I've seen some really positive kind 

21 of responses to the plan just in an overall 

22 genuine honest opinion of my own in fact. So 

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1 something that I've seen. 

2 And thanks so much for proposing this and 

3 I really hope that it doesn't get weakened or 

4 anything because this is huge. So, thanks.

5 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

6 Okay. Amy Kessler, Ashley Edinger. Ms. 

7 Kessler?

8 MS. KESSLER: Hello, my name is Amy 

9 Kessler and today I am here to represent myself 

10 as a millennial. My generation cares about the 

11 environment and supports action on climate 

12 change, but we have not yet been able to make the 

13 kind of change that our country needs in order to 

14 address this urgent problem of climate change. 

15 With these new rules, the EPA has an 

16 opportunity to enforce a meaningful and powerful 

17 change. For the sake of my generation and those 

18 to come, it is vital that these EPA regulations 

19 be put into effect. 

20 If we do not take bold action on climate 

21 change now, we are cheating future generations, 

22 robbing them of the opportunity to experience our 

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1 natural environment. 

2 I was lucky enough to be born and raised 

3 in Montana and was able to experience Yellow 

4 Stone National Park every summer with my family. 

5 I fear that future generations will not be able 

6 to experience the park in the same way that I 

7 have, that there won't be as much wildlife left 

8 for them to see. 

9 We should be leaving one-of-a-kind places 

10 like Yellow Stone better than we found them for 

11 future generations. We should be doing 

12 everything in our power to protect these national 

13 treasures. These regulations are a step in the 

14 right direction for that reason. If we do not 

15 act on climate change, we are leaving my 

16 generation and future generations to deal with 

17 increasingly extreme weather events that will 

18 only become more severe. 

19 We've already seen some extreme weather, 

20 events like Hurricane Sandy and Colorado's 

21 devastating fires and floods, but that is just 

22 the beginning and these events will only get 

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1 worse if we continue to sit on our hands as 

2 climate changes. 

3 Millennials know what is at stake. More 

4 and more I am seeing them care about recycling, 

5 buying fuel efficient cars, and riding their 

6 bikes or using public transportation as a 

7 substitute for driving their cars every day. 

8 They know the individual steps they need to take 

9 to create change, but they also know that it's 

10 time for bolder moves. We are ready for these 

11 rules from the EPA. 

12 Now the EPA has an opportunity to create 

13 tangible change. We can't miss this opportunity 

14 so today I am here as a concerned human being 

15 that believes we all deserve the right to a 

16 cleaner, more livable world. And I am here to 

17 say that I support the EPA and its need to take 

18 an extremely bold and fast action on a national 

19 level.

20 Thank you so much.

21 MR. DAILY: Thank you. 

22 MS. EDINGER: Hi, my name is Ashley 

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1 Edinger and I am here today as both a member of 

2 the younger generation that will be inheriting 

3 the worst of this problem and a concerned 

4 Coloradoan.

5 As a Colorado native, I find the 

6 admittance of carbon into our atmosphere deeply 

7 troubling. As a nation, in order to protect the 

8 lives of our citizens and the environment which 

9 fosters our well being, we need to adopt the 

10 proposed EPA regulations to limit carbon 

11 pollution from the larger sources, power plants.

12 Over the past several years the United 

13 States has experienced drastic changes in weather 

14 and precipitation patterns due to carbon 

15 pollution. These extreme changes have not only 

16 negatively impacted our economy, costing the U.S. 

17 over $100 billion in 2012 alone, but have also 

18 proved debilitating to families all around the 

19 nation. Instead of mitigating the after effects 

20 of extreme weather, we need to be proactive by 

21 mitigating our carbon pollution problem before 

22 it's too late. 

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1 In the past two years Colorado has faced 

2 six major fires that have burned almost 250,000 

3 acres of the beautiful land that drives 

4 Colorado's economy, destroying well over 1100 

5 homes and killing three people. Colorado also 

6 faced severe flooding this past September unlike 

7 what many of us have ever seen, resulting in 

8 eight fatalities and over $1 billion in damages. 

9 One of the hardest hit cities is Evans, 

10 Colorado, a city in which I spent large portion 

11 of childhood. It was hard to enjoy my first 

12 month in college listening intently as my friends 

13 and family members were being evacuated from 

14 their homes, and I couldn't be there with them.

15 The city was submerged and nearly 

16 destroyed and it wasn't until several months 

17 after the flooding that I was notified that my 

18 childhood home was lost in those floods. 

19 The flooding not only traumatized 

20 affected, but it destroyed lives. I went back to 

21 Evans in May to tour what remained and 

22 unfortunately there was much left to be done in 

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1 the recovery effort. The economy in Evans at 

2 town of only 20,000, was deeply impacted by the 

3 flooding. And federal assistance hasn't been 

4 enough. 

5 These extreme weather events are only 

6 going to get worse. We'll see more and more 

7 homes, schools, and towns like Evans destroyed. 

8 In order to preserve the lives that our citizens 

9 currently enjoy in the United States, we need to 

10 implement these new regulations on carbon 

11 pollution to prevent such catastrophes from 

12 becoming even more destructive. 

13 States like Colorado have practically 

14 started similar efforts of their own. As in 

15 Colorado we have put numerous programs in place 

16 to help combat the problem further. As other 

17 states are following in our footsteps, the 

18 regulations of hesitant states get pushed in the 

19 right direction.

20 The proposed regulations are necessary to 

21 creating a brighter future for all of us. And if 

22 we fail to respond to the effects of carbon 

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1 pollution, the nation as we know it will be 

2 destroyed. As of now, our future full of more 

3 extreme weather and more destruction looks bleak. 

4 We cannot wait a minute longer when lives are 

5 being destroyed due to our own human activity.

6 My generation, the millennials is 

7 following this rulemaking closely because we know 

8 that if action is not taken now, we would be left 

9 to deal with the catastrophic consequences in the 

10 near future. And by then, it will be too late.

11 Let's be on the right side of history and 

12 move our nation forward, acting as a model for 

13 other nations to follow. By not acting, the 

14 progress of our nation will be at a standstill. 

15 And as the effects of carbon pollution become 

16 increasingly more severe, we will be eventually 

17 moving backwards, so the only logical direction 

18 is forward. 

19 Thank you. 

20 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Our next 

21 speakers, Dominion Herrera, Nick Stoobler. Mr. 

22 Herrera, go ahead. 

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1 Mr. HERRERA: Hello, my name is Dom 

2 Herrera and I was born and raised here in Denver, 

3 Five Points, maybe about less than ten minutes 

4 away from here. And it's really good to see so 

5 many folks involved in this important issue. But 

6 the reason why this issue is important to me is 

7 because of my little brother who suffers from 

8 severe asthma.

9 And I remember growing up seeing the pain 

10 that my mom went through looking at her precious 

11 baby going through these serious asthma attacks 

12 and having to put him on the nebulizer. And he's 

13 always have to miss school because of going to 

14 the doctors. And I remember him being behind and 

15 always having to meet with the principals. And 

16 my mom, she raised three kids, my little brother, 

17 my little sister, and myself. So it was really 

18 hard for her to make ends meet by the end of the 

19 week because of her spending so much time in the 

20 hospital. So that's why I take this issue 

21 important. 

22 And over organizing the last couple of 

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1 years here in northeast Denver, a lot of the 

2 families who still this issue is mine, but 

3 relating to them and just hearing the pain in 

4 their voices, especially mothers, and little 

5 brothers. And so that's why I'm trying to do 

6 everything in my power to help this. And I agree 

7 with everything that's going on. 

8 So those are my two cents and this is why 

9 I support this.

10 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Mr. Stubler, 

11 Stoobler.

12 MR. STOOBLER: Yeah, Nick Stoobler. 

13 Sorry about that. 

14 MR. DAILY: That's okay, go ahead.

15 Mr. STOOBLER: Hello, my name is Nick 

16 Stoobler. I was born and raised in Grand 

17 Junction, Colorado but I am now a resident of 

18 Denver studying at the University of Denver. 

19 However, I speak to you today not as a Coloradoan 

20 or even an American, but as a human being. 

21 A young person who sees the world with a 

22 fresh perspective, free from society's condition 

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1 of what what is normal and acceptable. The 

2 science is clear, climate change is the single 

3 largest thing that humans have ever done on this 

4 planet. The only thing that needs to be bigger 

5 are our efforts to stop it. 

6 These regulations proposed in the clean 

7 power plan offer America the chance to kick start 

8 our efforts towards effectively combating climate 

9 change and building a sustainable future that 

10 supports generations to come. 

11 America has branded itself as a world 

12 leader throughout history. From creating the 

13 world's first modern democracy, to inventing 

14 nuclear technology, to being the first nation to 

15 put a man on the moon, America has pioneered a 

16 path that most countries strive to follow. 

17 However, when it comes to acting on climate 

18 change, the U.S. has utterly failed. 

19 The United States emitted more carbon 

20 than any other nation in the 20th century. To 

21 make matters worse, rather than actively work to 

22 fix the problem we helped to create, we have 

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1 actually undermined the movement through actions 

2 such as refusing to ratify the Kiota (ph) 

3 protocol. 

4 As a young American, it is especially 

5 frustrating to see my country act in such a way 

6 that so negatively impacts the rest of the world. 

7 These actions are unacceptable, especially for a 

8 country with as much power to influence as the 

9 United States. But there is hope.

10 These regulation, although not affixed to 

11 climate change are a monumental step in the right 

12 direction. Once implemented these regulations 

13 have the potential to start our country back on 

14 the right track and begin leading the world again 

15 in the right direction.

16 Colorado has already began leading the 

17 way through actions such as the recent regulation 

18 implemented by the Air Quality Control 

19 Commission. And it is imperative that the U.S. 

20 follow suit on a federal level. 

21 Failing to effectively address climate 

22 change today will ensure our country and current 

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1 generations will leave behind a legacy defined by 

2 environmental catastrophe.

3 Quite honestly, I'm terrified of one day 

4 looking into the eyes of my children and 

5 grandchildren and explaining that we failed them, 

6 of apologizing for the state of the world and 

7 acknowledging that my generation played a part in 

8 the destruction of our mother earth.

9 By enacting these basic regulations on 

10 carbon emissions today, we can prevent these 

11 conversations from having to occur and instead 

12 begin leading the world in the right direction 

13 yet again.

14 My testimony isn't about money or 

15 politics. It's about sharing the uncompromised 

16 and forward-looking perspective of the youth on 

17 the defining issue of our lifetime. It's about 

18 the welfare of future generations and their 

19 inalienable right to live on a hospitable planet.

20 We have reached a turning point where we 

21 can no longer continue passing the buck and 

22 sweeping the science under the rug. If we do not 

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1 immediately and decisively act to combat climate 

2 change, our enduring legacy will be the 

3 generations who irreparably damaged the planet 

4 and degraded the lives of all beings who call it 

5 home.

6 Thank you all so much for taking the time 

7 to hold these hearings and listen to the American 

8 people. However, I implore you to not only 

9 listen to the voices of those here today and of 

10 those across the country, but empathetically 

11 listen to the voices from all the people around 

12 the world and all the people from future 

13 generations to come. To take the time to listen 

14 to their hopeful cries for a safe and hospitable 

15 future. 

16 My plea to you is simple, enact these 

17 regulations today to give my generation and 

18 future generations a chance for a safe and viable 

19 future. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Our next two 

22 speakers Rachel Garfunkel, Garfinkel, I'm sorry, 

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1 I apologize. The handwriting is a little blurry 

2 here. Kyle Coronado. Is Mr. Coronado here? 

3 Okay. Ms. Garfinkel. 

4 MS. GARFINKEL: Hi, my name is Rachel 

5 Garfinkel, born and raised in Oklahoma. I just 

6 moved to Colorado a couple of months ago as a 

7 community organizer.

8 I did a lot of organizing in Oklahoma as 

9 well, so I feel like I can speak for a lot of 

10 people. Thousands of people I've talked to over 

11 that three or so years that I've been organizing, 

12 when it comes to climate change and coal-fired 

13 power plants and the health in the communities 

14 surrounding them, and going back to the extreme 

15 weather conditions from climate change, the 

16 extreme weather changes -- has suffered a lot 

17 from that as well with the tornados that just 

18 came by a couple years ago. And pretty much 

19 every summer the whole community is terrified of 

20 another one coming again. 

21 But, as I said, I speak to -- I speak for 

22 -- I feel like I'm speaking for a lot of people 

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1 in the community all over Denver and Aurora, 

2 people that weren't able to be here today, but 

3 have signed EPA comment cards that we plan on 

4 sending to you eventually. 

5 I'm supporting this clean power plan. 

6 Mothers that have children with asthma are afraid 

7 of their children's future and they're afraid for 

8 the environment of their children. And for me, 

9 being at childbearing age, I'm afraid to even 

10 think about what it would be like for a child at 

11 my age. 

12 So, also people worrying about the water 

13 supply whether or not we're going to have snow on 

14 the mountains in the next ten years. Out here in

15 California -- or in Colorado and in California, 

16 where I've also done restoration work and they've 

17 seen a lot of extreme droughts from climate 

18 change as well.

19 And as you know, the Department of 

20 Defense came out saying that that climate change 

21 is a national security issue. So it seems 

22 obvious to me to take action, immediate action on 

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1 it as a nation and to mitigate the damage that 

2 has already been done.

3 And to the people who are afraid that 

4 this plan will hurt the economy and kill jobs, I 

5 say to them that there will be no economy if 

6 there's no healthy environment or healthy society 

7 because of the environment. 

8 So thank you.

9 MR. DAILY: Thank you. Mr. Coronado.

10 MR. CORONADO: Good afternoon, my name is 

11 Kyle Desmond Coronado and I am a resident here of 

12 Colorado. I wanted to show -- I came here today 

13 to show my strong support to the new regulations 

14 for the clean power plan.

15 I don't have sad stories about personal 

16 accounts of Hurricane Katrina or Sandy or 

17 wildfires or various droughts or some of the 

18 other personal accounts that may other people 

19 have.

20 But I am very glad to see that there are 

21 very many young people like myself a millennial 

22 generation showing their support for thinking 

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1 ahead and thinking about the future and thinking 

2 that we can't just keep rolling the dice or just 

3 saying that like, oh, it's really not that bad of 

4 a problem, and we've had past previous 

5 environmental or climate legislature but it just 

6 hasn't cut up to snuff.

7 This is really, in my opinion, kind of 

8 the minimum that we should be doing at this point 

9 in 2014 and going on into the 21st century. 

10 American is still a world power. And we need to 

11 be showing and leading with all of our influence. 

12 And going into the future I wonder about, you 

13 know, the world that I'll be leaving for those of 

14 us later on in the millennial generation and the 

15 next generations to come about the potential 

16 children that I'll have and I'll have to explain 

17 to them that once upon a time there was these 

18 weird conflicting views even though it was almost 

19 unanimous in the scientific community, or NASA, 

20 or the Park Service, or the Department of 

21 Defense, as we just heard about, there are those 

22 that will always say that this will kill the 

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1 economy and it will cost jobs, and we just can't 

2 do it now. Maybe next year, maybe next election, 

3 next time, we'll see if it works. But there gets 

4 to a point where there isn't a next time. It's 

5 you just have to focus on the now. You have to 

6 push for what you can get. And while this isn't 

7 everything what I always wanted, it's something, 

8 and it's something very significant. So I would 

9 urge you to focus on those that are really 

10 inheriting this problem, those that are the 

11 millennial generation that we're really going to 

12 have to clean up this enormous mess that's been 

13 created over the generations that before were 

14 were just ignorant about. But now we know and 

15 since we know, knowing is really, like they say, 

16 half the battle. 

17 So I just wanted to show my strong 

18 support today and -- yeah, that's all. Thanks.

19 MR. DAILY: Thank you.

20 The next speaker, Sarah Blanchfield.

21 MS. BLANCHFIELD: Hi. Good evening 

22 commissioners. First of all I just want to say 

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1 thank you so much for taking the time out to hear 

2 us today. 

3 My name is Sarah Blanchfield and I am 

4 here today as a representative of the many young 

5 people across our nation and larger globe who see 

6 the earth's natural treasures vanishing before 

7 their eyes at an alarming speed as a result of 

8 our species' unprecedent emission of greenhouse 

9 gases into the atmosphere.

10 I'm here to represent the many problem 

11 members of my generation who want the privilege 

12 of exploring the earth's oceans and snow caps 

13 with their children. But who may never be able 

14 to if our society continues down it's path of 

15 reckless pollution and planetary abuse. 

16 I am here today to voice my support for 

17 these rules as the first of many steps that will 

18 be necessary to reverse humanity's impacts on the 

19 planet before it is too late. 

20 I lost my mother during my freshman year 

21 of high school. And the most treasured memories 

22 I have of her are those of our travels during my 

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1 childhood. These memories include snorkeling 

2 coral reefs in Hawaii and the Caribbean, trekking 

3 across the rain forests of Belize and walking 

4 down the Rio Grande in our home town of 

5 Albuquerque with our two labs.

6 The physical attachment that I have to 

7 these locations cannot be overstated. The grief 

8 that I feel as a result of their current 

9 degradation thanks to our global addiction to 

10 fossil fuels can only be matched by the pain that 

11 I feel in realizing that such global treasures 

12 may only exist in outdated magazines and mental 

13 pictures by the time that I have children of my 

14 own.

15 Failure to pass even mild carbon 

16 regulations like these equates to robbing my 

17 generation of these sites of natural beauty. One 

18 of the first memories that I have of my mother is 

19 being cradled in her baby jogger while she ran me 

20 up and down the section of the Rio Grande that 

21 runs through Albuquerque's north valley. Once I 

22 could walk, I would jog alongside her with our 

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1 two labs as they ventured in and out of the 

2 river's swiftly moving clay-colored water. 

3 Because of the unprecedented amount of 

4 carbon that is now trapped in our atmosphere, the 

5 Rio Grande has reached its highest temperatures 

6 in more than 10,000 years. The evaporation is 

7 already alarmingly noticeable. 

8 The river of my childhood can expect to 

9 lose one-third of its surface water by the end of 

10 this century. This loss is one that one will be 

11 felt emotionally, culturally, economically and 

12 agriculturally through the entire southwest.

13 Is that five minutes?

14 MR. DAILY: No. Timer error.

15 MS. BLANCHFIELD: Pause. In a regional 

16 already dangerously strapped for water, it will 

17 mean the loss of a farming culture that has dated 

18 back centuries of water security for an entire 

19 state, and of a symbol of New Mexico's culture 

20 that is older than the state itself. 

21 The coral reefs that I snorkeled hand-in22 hand with my mom from an age so early that I had 

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1 to use floaties are experiencing quantities of 

2 bleaching and ocean acidification that have never

3 been seen before. These reefs seeped with 

4 vibrant colors and multitudes of fish when I 

5 first swam them are now largely whitened, warmed 

6 and desolate. Even more tragic is the fact that 

7 without protection and swift action in 

8 legislations like these the reefs of the 

9 Caribbean can be expected to largely vanish 

10 within the next 20 years. With them will go some 

11 of my dearest memories with my mother. So too 

12 will go the global fishing economy and tourism 

13 revenue that generates from these priceless 

14 locations. It is time to decide whether we will 

15 let these places slip through our fingers or we 

16 will take the initiative to fight for their 

17 immeasurable value by implementing policy like 

18 that which we discussed today. 

19 Because my mom was single for my whole 

20 life with her, all of our travels together 

21 included only me, her, and our natural 

22 surroundings. The only tangible connection that 

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1 I have to these mental images lies not with 

2 another person, but with the scenic beauty in 

3 which they occurred. Our abuse of this planet, 

4 if it continues to go unchecked, will strip me 

5 not only of these accounts of the past, but of 

6 any prospects I have to recreate them with my own 

7 children in the future. 

8 As part of the generation that will be 

9 the most affected by climate change, and the 

10 ecological losses that it causes, I'm here today 

11 to implore you to approve these regulations. 

12 Do not let the technology of yesterday 

13 deny my generation the ability to create memories 

14 with our families tomorrow and in the years to 

15 come. 

16 Thank you. 

17 MR. DAILY: Thank you. At At this point 

18 in time we're waiting for our speaker list to 

19 catch up with our schedule. So we're going to 

20 take a break until 5 p.m. and then we'll 

21 reconvene. So thank you. 

22 (Brief recess taken at 4:17 p.m.)

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1 (Record resumes 5:00 p.m.)

2 SESSION C

3 MS. SUTIN: All right. Good evening, 

4 everyone. My name is Elyana Sutin and I am one 

5 of the hearing chairs for today's hearing. 

6 Thank you for coming today.

7 Joining me on the panel are Denise 

8 Mulholland from our Office of Atmospheric 

9 Programs in D.C. and Dierdra Rothery who is with 

10 our Air Program here in Region 8.

11 We are here today to listen to your 

12 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

13 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

14 of these proposed rules on June 2, 2014.

15 Power plants are the largest source of 

16 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

17 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

18 emissions. 

19 The first rule is EPA's proposed clean 

20 power plan for existing power plants. This 

21 proposal consists of two main parts, state22 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

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1 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

2 develop their plans for meeting these goals.

3 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

4 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

5 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

6 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

7 their goals by 2030.

8 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

9 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

10 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

11 set emission limits for two groups of power 

12 plants, those that make physical or operational 

13 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

14 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

15 that replace components to such an extent that 

16 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

17 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

18 facility. 

19 If you would like more details on either 

20 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

21 available near the registration desk. 

22 Today's hearing is one of four public 

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1 hearings across the country this week on the two 

2 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

3 in each of the hearings and I would like to thank 

4 you for taking time out of your day today to join 

5 us and share your comments.

6 We have a lot of people signed up to 

7 speak and we want to hear from everyone. So 

8 before we get started I would like to go through 

9 a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 

10 will help make today's hearing run smoothly.

11 First, please be sure you have checked in 

12 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

13 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

14 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

15 you are here, please step out to the registration 

16 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've

17 arrived. 

18 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

19 given a room letter when you checked in, for the 

20 next hour it should be Room B. After this time 

21 if you come in, make sure you're in the correct 

22 room. This is Room B. If you're not in the 

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1 right room, that would be the time to switch, 

2 around six o'clock. 

3 If you are not speaking this evening and 

4 the room is getting crowded, we have two 

5 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

6 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

7 desk will direct you to one of those rooms.

8 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

9 will work. I will call speakers up in pairs, 

10 when your name is called, please come to the 

11 podiums at the front of the room. When I call 

12 you to speak, please state your name, and spell 

13 it for the court reporter.

14 Your comments will be transcribed and 

15 included in the record of comments on the 

16 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

17 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

18 help you know how much time you have left to 

19 speak. When the light turns from green to 

20 yellow, that means you have one minute remaining. 

21 When it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up 

22 your testimony. The light will flash red and 

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1 beep when you have spoken for five minutes and 

2 it's time to stop. 

3 When you are finished speaking, please 

4 remain at the podium until the person next to you 

5 has completed his or her testimony. 

6 We are here today to listen to you. 

7 However a panel member may be asking clarifying 

8 questions on your comments. 

9 I will then call up the next pair of 

10 speakers and so on. 

11 If you have brought a written copy of 

12 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

13 the registration desk or you can leave it here 

14 on our table.

15 Because of the large number of people who 

16 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

17 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

18 enforce this five-minute limit.

19 If you have additional comments you would 

20 like to make, you can submit those comments in 

21 writing.

22 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

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1 much consideration to comments we receive in 

2 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

3 hearings like this one. 

4 So if you have more that you would like 

5 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

6 reviewed. 

7 There is still plenty of time to get 

8 written comments in and there are comment cards 

9 available at the registration desk. Comments 

10 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

11 put any written comments submitted today into the 

12 official docket for the proposed rule. 

13 Instructions for submitting written 

14 comments in other ways are available at the 

15 materials table near the registration desk.

16 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

17 tonight. We will take short breaks as needed. 

18 If you have any questions during this time, 

19 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

20 someone will try and help you. 

21 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

22 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

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1 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

2 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

3 all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 

4 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly, 

5 even applause can slow things down and we want to 

6 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak. 

7 Thank you, again, for taking the time 

8 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

9 rule. Let's get started. 

10 First two speakers to come up, Natasha 

11 Lannerd and Matt Flerky. Ms. Lannerd, you'll 

12 speak first. 

13 MS. LANNERD: So I just want to 

14 apologize, I left my speech sitting on my 

15 counter. So my roommate took a photo of it and 

16 sent it to me, so I'm not texting or anything 

17 like that. I'm looking at my notes. 

18 My name is Natasha Lanard, I am 29 years 

19 old and I am from Denver, Colorado. And I'm here 

20 today to voice my support for putting strict 

21 regulation on the emissions for power plants. 

22 And I just kind of want to give a little bit more 

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1 a personal side to this as I am sure that you 

2 guys have heard plenty of facts. I mean, the 

3 science is pretty clear as to why. I don't think 

4 you really need to hear anymore about that. 

5 But growing up my dad -- my mom passed 

6 away when I was a child and my dad was obviously 

7 a single parent and he worked actually as a 

8 gunner and a foreman in the Rawhide Power Plant 

9 and in a coal facility in Wyoming. And I talked 

10 to him about it today prior to coming in here and 

11 kind of what he had told me was, you know, as 

12 somebody who my dad didn't go to college and he 

13 was obviously looking to support a family, one of 

14 the best opportunities for him was working in the 

15 coal industry in these facilities.

16 And I asked him to tell me a little bit 

17 about that job and basically what he told me is 

18 that it was incredibly dark, incredibly 

19 dangerous, and it was the most thankless job he's 

20 ever had. He said the thing that stood out, you 

21 know, the thing that stood out the most to me 

22 when he told me about it was is every time people 

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1 turn on the lights, nobody thanks a coal miner. 

2 And I think that what makes this so emotional is 

3 that, you know, nobody thanks a coal miner and 

4 the only thing that these people hear are 

5 negative attacks. It's negativity about 

6 emissions and I think that the coal industry has 

7 done a really good job of spinning that fear onto 

8 them about the jobs that they could lose. 

9 Because at the end of the day these people have 

10 families that they have to support regardless. 

11 I'm sure there are people in there and 

12 there are dads in those facilities and moms in 

13 those facilities that are the only people 

14 supporting their families and they will do 

15 whatever it takes to do it.

16 But what I did ask my dad in, you know, 

17 kind of having this conversation is that if you 

18 were given an option to do something else, and 

19 still be able to support, you know, us the way 

20 that you did, would you do it? And he said 

21 absolutely. And he said that he doesn't really 

22 know of anybody he ever worked with that really 

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1 was passionate about necessarily about digging 

2 coal out of the ground. Or for him he did a lot 

3 of work in the actual facilities cleaning the 

4 plants and the big turbines and things like that. 

5 And he said, though, that when he did work doing 

6 that that nobody ever really talked about it, 

7 even though he thinks that the heart of a lot of 

8 people there, my dad included, that they were 

9 wanting another option because there's so much 

10 negativity around, you know, the fact that people 

11 could lose their jobs and the fear based with 

12 that. And if they were to ever say anything that 

13 they would be looked negatively or lose their 

14 jobs.

15 I don't have any children, I don't have 

16 any real interest in having children. I have 

17 asthma, but it's not that bad. But seeing as how 

18 we're all here as citizens of Colorado, I grew up 

19 in Green Mountain and I've seen that brown cloud 

20 every day growing up out there. It's visible, 

21 you can't even see the cities on some days. 

22 And, you know, the reason that I'm here 

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1 is because I have a problem because I have to 

2 live here. I have to breath in the air and the 

3 reason you're here today is because you obviously 

4 have a problem because you're tasked with dealing 

5 with it, and at the end of the day we all have a 

6 problem because we contribute to it, we rely upon 

7 it, and we all must do something to change it. 

8 And what has kind of struck me the most about 

9 this is I was at the precedent earlier today and 

10 the thing that got the loudest cheer was the 

11 agreement on everybody -- I looked today, there's 

12 around 2,600 people in Colorado who rely on coal 

13 jobs, every single one of those people should be 

14 given an option and should be given the support 

15 to find another vocational career because this 

16 isn't an attack against them. 

17 The people who stand to lose the most are 

18 the industries that have based their entire lives 

19 on this whole thing instead of innovating beyond 

20 coal and being ahead of it, they spent more and 

21 more money and it's almost likened to a drug 

22 addiction. You know, you spend more money as you 

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1 want to, you know, forget that you have a problem 

2 and the more pushback you see, the more fear 

3 that's being based, the more everything, 

4 resistance to change is likened to a drug addict. 

5 You know, nobody wants to admit they have a drug 

6 problem, they spend all this money looking for 

7 the drug and everything else. 

8 And I guess what I'm asking for you 

9 today, as I'm wrapping up my time is that, you 

10 know, the more money people spend, the coal 

11 industry spends is based on fear, they're trying 

12 to scare everybody. And the only people that 

13 really have anything to lose is them because 

14 they've spent their entire efforts into digging 

15 their heels out instead of innovating beyond a 

16 technology that's outdated and that needs to go 

17 by the wayside. Because at the end of the day 

18 there are a lot of people like my dad that would 

19 have taken another option. They'd rather work on 

20 a wind turbine than be digging underneath the 

21 ground digging up coal.

22 And I'm sure if you pulled each of those 

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1 people aside who stand to lose anything from 

2 this, they would say the same thing. And, again, 

3 the only people that truly stand to lose is the 

4 coal industry.

5 So thank you for being here today and 

6 listening to all of us.

7 MS. SUTIN: Natasha, can you spell your 

8 first and last name for the court reporter?

9 MS. LANNERD: Sure. N-a-t-a-s-h-a, 

10 Lannerd, L-a-n-n-e-r-d. Thank you.

11 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

12 Mr. Floerke.

13 MR. FLOERKE: My name is Mathew Floerke, 

14 M-a-t-h-e-w F-l-o-e-r-k-e. I'm a Colorado State 

15 senior right now majoring in physics and minoring 

16 in math. I am originally from Petaluma, 

17 California. It's located about an hour north of 

18 San Francisco, it's a beautiful place, wine 

19 country.

20 I'm here today because I'm here to show 

21 my support for the clean power plan. I just --

22 me as a person I've always been really into the 

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1 environment. I just -- I can't believe what 

2 we're doing to this planet. I've been so blessed 

3 to grow up in a beautiful place in California and 

4 to go to school here in Colorado. And it saddens 

5 me when I walk around just down the street in 

6 Fort Collins that was rated not like maybe three 

7 years ago as one of the best cities to live in 

8 this country. And seeing just trash everywhere 

9 on the ground. This is the best that we can do, 

10 and it saddens me to know that.

11 But even being in California, you know, 

12 in the northern part, none of that smog and all 

13 that. It's terrible. We're in one of the worst 

14 droughts we've had, so that just shows me that 

15 climate change is definitely affecting 

16 California. And my parent worry about it every 

17 day. They are on constant watch on how much 

18 water they can use because it's a real thing. 

19 Drinkable water and water that we can use is 

20 running low. And what are we going to do when 

21 we're out of it?

22 Also, the air, the pollution, like 

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1 growing up and that, I thought that was normal. 

2 And coming to Colorado I've just seen how that's 

3 not the reality. That's not the world that we 

4 should be living in. It can be a lot cleaner and 

5 a lot more breathable. And it's terrible to see, 

6 you know, not only are we polluting our air, but 

7 my parents just returned from a trip from China 

8 and my dad -- he got so sick from the air there 

9 that he couldn't come out from the hotel room for 

10 three days. He was just red in the face, could 

11 not breathe and it was -- turned out to be one of 

12 the worst trips he's ever had. And I don't want 

13 to see that happen to this beautiful country 

14 because I love it here, it's gorgeous and it 

15 would be terrible to see that never to come back 

16 again. 

17 Another thing that I've seen in 

18 California is I took a trip two years ago to San 

19 Diego, and just walking along the beach I had 

20 never seen so much trash. And it's terrible. 

21 Like we can't be doing this and just, you know, 

22 because it's in some water, that's not 

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1 technically our land, we just -- we don't care 

2 about it. It's terrible, it's there, and it's 

3 going to come back to haunt us some day unless we 

4 do something about it.

5 I mean, right now, you know, we are 

6 sitting on an exponential curve. And for those 

7 of you who don't know what that means, for 

8 example, we can use lily pads, the first day we 

9 have one lily pad, the next day we have two, and 

10 then four, and then eight, and so relating that 

11 to our population we may be down here right now 

12 where it doesn't affect us that greatly, but 

13 eventually we're going to be up here and it's 

14 going to hit us so fast that we won't be able to 

15 do anything to do anything about it. And it will 

16 just be too late, it's really sad. 

17 So I think this clean power plan is a 

18 great start and it's something -- it may not be 

19 huge, it may not be cleaning up the oceans, but 

20 it is cleaning up our air and I believe that it 

21 is something that we need to take initiative and 

22 add on to and continue doing throughout this 

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1 nation because it is gorgeous, it is something 

2 that I care about a lot, and I would hate to see 

3 us as American people throw it away so easily. 

4 Thank you very much and have a great 

5 evening.

6 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. You can both be 

7 seated.

8 Okay. I'm going to call up four people at 

9 a time. If you can come sit in the chairs and 

10 then I'll call two people up to speak. 

11 So if I can have Anita Hartmann, Susan 

12 Jacobson, Patty McClelland and Ronald Larson.

13 So Anita Hartmann and Susan Jacobson. 

14 Anita, you'll go first.

15 MS. HARTMANN: Okay. My name is Anita 

16 Hartman, A-n-i-t-a H-a-r-t-m-a-n-n. I'm here as 

17 a mother and a grandmother and a citizen. And I 

18 want to thank you for creating this forum for 

19 public opinion and thank you for protecting the 

20 environment and the future that my kids and grand 

21 kids are going to live into. I'm here to support 

22 strong regulations for reduction of carbon 

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1 emissions which will create cleaner air and slow 

2 climate change and will minimize environmental 

3 disasters. I have a very strong feelings about 

4 this. 

5 Such as the contamination of the Dan 

6 River in North Carolina where Duke Energy ash 

7 ponds contaminated the river and the governor who 

8 was an employee of Duke Energy for 28 years let 

9 them off the hook entirely for cleaning up the 

10 river. So, by cleaning up the industry, the 

11 energy industry, not only will it reduce carbon 

12 emissions but it will have a wide-reaching impact 

13 into other areas of environmental protection.

14 Right now we have strengthened the Clean 

15 Air Act at the expense of our rivers. Because 

16 how do we clean the emissions from the plants, 

17 the power plants, the coal plants, we do it with 

18 water which then goes into our rivers. And so,

19 you know, not only do we need to strengthen our 

20 Clean Air Act and our regulations for emissions, 

21 but we also need to strengthen our Clean Water 

22 Act so that we don't just move the problem from 

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1 one part of our environment to another. 

2 When Duke Energy had the disaster with 

3 their coal ash ponds -- I have a home in Florida 

4 and I live here in Colorado too, part-time -- I 

5 contacted the Public Utilities Commission because 

6 I don't have a choice. I have Duke Energy as my 

7 Energy provider. I don't want to support them, I 

8 don't want to do business with them, I don't want 

9 them to have my money. If they are not going to 

10 be held accountable and they are not going to be 

11 responsible, we need freedom of choice. And so 

12 the Public Utilities Commission needs to step up 

13 and understand that the people of this country 

14 need choice, need freedom of choice so that we 

15 don't have to continue to support these 

16 organizations that compromise the well being of 

17 our future, our environments for their corporate 

18 profits and the safety of the people in this 

19 country.

20 By minimizing the reliance on industries 

21 such as coal and natural gas and oil which I hope 

22 somebody tells the president that natural gas is 

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1 not clean energy. It is not clean energy. By 

2 reducing reliance on these, it will create more 

3 demand for renewable clean energy and alternative 

4 energy that truly is sustainable. So, the other 

5 wide-reaching effect that it has, is, yes, there 

6 are people in the coal industry who make their 

7 living in the coal industry and we need to 

8 support them in having alternative ways of making 

9 a living. But we also need to protect those 

10 people because they too are paying a very heavy 

11 price with their -- the areas that they live in 

12 and the health consequences from being associated 

13 with those industries.

14 And then lastly, two very quick things. 

15 The last time I was here to speak with you was 

16 when you were in Denver soliciting opinion on 

17 fracking. And I want to thank you for your 

18 efforts for requiring disclosure of fracking 

19 ingredients. And please do all you can to 

20 protect the bees from companies like Monsanto.

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Hartmann.

22 Ms. Jacobson?

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1 MS. JACOBSON: My name is Susan Jacobson, 

2 S-u-s-a-n J-a-c-o-b-s-o-n. So I love the sign, 

3 you talked, we listened. So I'm going to talk 

4 very briefly. 

5 I'm an economics professor at Regis 

6 College in North Denver. And you'll see from my 

7 comments that that background is reflected in 

8 them. 

9 Climate change is real. The organization 

10 350.org highlights just how far beyond the limits 

11 we have already gone. 350.org named for a safe 

12 level of carbon emissions, parts per million of 

13 CO2 in the atmosphere, it now almost looks 

14 laughable. 

15 In May 2013 we hit 400 parts per million 

16 and the line on the chart just keeps rising. You 

17 don't really have to be a scientist to notice. 

18 Crazy weather, fires, floods, heat and drought 

19 are highly visible to everyone especially those 

20 of us who live in the fragile environments of the 

21 desert west.

22 I am a member of a number of 

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1 environmental organizations including Great Old 

2 Broads For Wilderness, Grand Canyon Trust, 

3 Conservation Colorado, the Sierra Club, Wildlands 

4 Restoration Volunteers. So these affiliations 

5 indicate my deep love of the western landscape 

6 which will be changed dramatically if we don't 

7 act.

8 But I also thankfully am blessed with a 

9 strong constitution and a good job. So I'm not 

10 here to tell my story or to testify for my 

11 interest personally. I'm here to represent 

12 people who often don't come to these meetings to 

13 speak out because they really can't come. 

14 They're the people who are sick. Or 

15 they're the people who are working long hours for 

16 minimum wage to support their families. These 

17 are the people who suffer the greater cost of 

18 inaction on climate change because they are the 

19 ones who live and work in the most polluted 

20 areas. 

21 Others of us, the privileged few, find 

22 ways to buy our way out of the problems for now 

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1 and apparently we really haven't thought ahead, 

2 haven't been wise, or been prompted by ethical 

3 conscience to think far enough ahead to curtail 

4 and clean up our consumption and pay our fair 

5 share of the all-in costs of energy use.

6 I just heard last week on Colorado Public 

7 Radio, the director of the National Renewable 

8 Energy Lab in Golden say that coal is still the 

9 cheapest source of a kilowatt hour. But cheapest 

10 ignores huge costs to our environment and to our 

11 health that are unjustly borne by those who are 

12 least able.

13 Of course the director of NREL knows 

14 this. But too many of us focus on economic 

15 costs, dollar costs that do not reflect the real 

16 costs of our way of life. 

17 To use Raj Patel's words, coal is not 

18 cheap energy, it's cheat energy with a T. 

19 Because we are transferring the real costs to the 

20 less fortunate to the earth and to the future. 

21 Let me quote from a recent report. "The 

22 findings of the Yale University Research add to 

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1 the evidence of a widening racial and economic 

2 gap when it comes to air pollution. Communities 

3 of color and those with low education, high 

4 poverty, and unemployment face greater health 

5 risks even if their air quality standards meet 

6 federal standards." This research was published 

7 in an online scientific journal called 

8 environmental health perspectives. 

9 Cleaning up our economy is about more 

10 than clean are for those of us who are here to 

11 speak out. It's also about justice. As Gina 

12 McCarthy said, "we have a moral obligation to 

13 act." 

14 A 30 percent reduction by 2013, as 

15 compared to 2005 levels is not only doable, but 

16 imperative. This is not going to be a do or die 

17 effort. States may implement the regulations 

18 using many flexible means and methods over time. 

19 One more issue, people throw out numbers to get 

20 attention. 

21 In the Denver Post this morning I read 

22 that the American Coalition for Clean Coal Energy 

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1 is against tougher air quality standards because 

2 it will cost 9,000 mining jobs. Nine thousand 

3 jobs may sound like a lot. And to the 9,000 

4 people whose jobs are lost, it is a lot. But 

5 let's put that number in context. The U.S. 

6 economy created 288,000 jobs in June alone, one 

7 month. People need jobs, but not just any jobs 

8 as we heard before, they need sustainable good 

9 jobs.

10 Thank you for listening.

11 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Jacobson.

12 Mr. McClelland and -- I'm sorry, Ms. 

13 McClelland and Mr. Larson. Ms. McClelland you 

14 will go first. 

15 MS. McCLELLAND: Okay. I shall. Hi, I'm 

16 Paddy McClelland, and I spell it P-a-d-d-y M-c-C17 l-e-l-l-a-n-d.

18 Thank you for doing this. I don't think 

19 I'm going to say anything that I thought I was 

20 going to say. I've been so moved by so many 

21 things today. I was here this morning too.

22 And part of it was, I came back this 

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1 afternoon and left my house, and oh, my God, look 

2 at the weather, it's like, it's just so obvious. 

3 And the clouds all summer have been these big 

4 hanging, full of vapor that just drop water like 

5 crazy. It never used to be like that, you know. 

6 So that being said and then the downpour of rain, 

7 it's just so obvious to me.

8 I'm here, I also work with a lot of 

9 different organizations, but I'm here mostly as a 

10 mother today. And on behalf of my grandmother 

11 who was born in Silver Plume along with all my 

12 great old codgy uncles that were miners up there 

13 and they had to leave their life of silver and 

14 gold mining to find something new. And so I feel 

15 for the miners. I understand how difficult that 

16 must be. But it's not impossible.

17 I would like to just tell a story my 

18 grandmother used to say and it's a beaver story. 

19 And she used to say, I remember there were 

20 beautiful beaver ponds up in that direction and 

21 she said, "the beavers are living in their little 

22 damed area and the minute they hear water 

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1 starting to run all the beavers are paying 

2 attention to the water, and everybody hears it, 

3 and so they start getting really busy, they get a 

4 stick to put in here, make sure it's not there 

5 and vice versa. And so the beavers do everything 

6 they can to protect their family when they hear 

7 the water."

8 My contention is here today that 

9 everybody I know in this room and a lot more 

10 people out there, we all hear the water. It's 

11 not easy to hear because it's not easy to really 

12 know in your heart. In the work that I do, I've 

13 met so many people. I just had lunch with 

14 somebody two weeks ago that after he saw my 

15 presentation on climate change sat at the table 

16 and just sobbed. 

17 I hope it's not too late. I appreciate 

18 what you guys are doing, and it's a first step. 

19 We need to address the methane.

20 This morning somebody said, and this 

21 worries me, that, you know, by focusing on the 

22 goal, the methane will just go. And it is worse 

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1 for the climate than any coal. And the other 

2 thing that I hope we start hearing about is a 

3 carbon tax because that's where it's going to 

4 change everything is having a carbon for your 

5 dividend.

6 So just in closing I just want to say 

7 that, again, as a mother, I do believe, and this 

8 comes from our children's trust, it's an old 

9 environmental law. I don't know if you guys have 

10 heard of it. And they're doing some fighting 

11 around the states right now, but we have 

12 entrusted our planet to you guys. We have 

13 entrusted it with you to take care of it for my 

14 children and their children. And so I hope with 

15 this one -- you know, this is one stick for the 

16 dam today. And I hope by giving you this trust 

17 to do what is right that you guys will stand up 

18 and do the right thing. And the other thing I 

19 want to say is I don't think the president or you 

20 have any idea of the numbers that are behind you 

21 if you do this thing. If you continue to fight 

22 for our environment. 

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1 That's all, thank you so much.

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. McClelland.

3 Mr. Larson.

4 MR. LARSON: The name is Ronal, R-o-n-a5 l, Larson. I live on Lookout Mountain.

6 I'm going to probably take a different 

7 slant than you've heard from almost anybody else. 

8 I'm going to ask for a fifth category of what 

9 states can do in addition to efficiency 

10 renewables, natural gas and so forth.

11 The fifth category would be carbon 

12 negative technologies. These are the kinds of 

13 technologies that Jim Hanson and Bill McKibben 

14 are arguing for. I'm hoping that they're in 

15 there. I haven't looked as carefully as I 

16 should, but it certainly is not indicated in any 

17 of the description that I've seen of the four 

18 categories. 

19 The reason for being here is having 

20 worked in renewable energy and energy efficiency 

21 since 1973 I was a principle scientist at Enrow, 

22 I was a Congressional Fellow working on the first 

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1 two solar bills that were passed by Congress '73-

2 4. I helped establish the Colorado Renewable 

3 Energy Society. I was chair of the American 

4 Solar Energy Society, and I think that that game 

5 is more or less over. Renewables wind and solar 

6 are ready. We don't -- obviously there are 

7 things that can be done, but those technologies 

8 have run the game. 

9 What hasn't even been started is anything 

10 on carbon negativity. I looked at a website the 

11 other night, 1500, 1700, 1300 bills in state 

12 legislatures. There's not a single bill in any 

13 state legislature looking at carbon negativity. 

14 And I think EPA is the group that can do that, 

15 almost has to do it. 

16 The two key words that should be in that 

17 fifth category are "CDR", carbon dioxide 

18 renewable, or "NET", negative emissions 

19 technologies. The latter picks up on both, 

20 methane and nitrous oxide. And so I'm moving 

21 away from the word "CDR" towards "NET" and 

22 biochar can do all three. It does a great job on 

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1 carbon dioxide, I presume that the three of you 

2 know something about biochar, so I won't go into 

3 it here. But it's the idea of getting something 

4 into your regulations. 

5 The only other thing I wanted to say was 

6 that three years ago you had a biogenic ruling 

7 with three years up already last week. I gave 

8 testimony or I mean, I wrote something on the 

9 subject of biogenic carbon, whether or not 

10 biomass is really renewable and sustainable. I 

11 think there is some argument when you talk about 

12 biomass. I think there's no argument when you 

13 talk about biochar. The only other word I've 

14 written down here is the word reversibility. In 

15 the technical literature there's a good bit of 

16 deference about whether we can in fact reverse 

17 the mess that we're in. 

18 I think that biochar can do it. I think 

19 you can do it better than any other net 

20 approaches. 

21 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Larson.

22 You can booth be seated.

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1 If I can have Lola Wilcox, Dustin Chavez2 Davis and Isaac Rivera. Go ahead and be seated, 

3 you don't all have to stand up. But Ms. Wilcox 

4 will go first. 

5 MS. WILCOX: My name is Lola, L-o-l-a, 

6 Wilcox, W-i-l-c-o-x. I'm a fourth generation 

7 Coloradoan. My children or six grandchildren are 

8 six generation. So that's something that I bring 

9 in terms of perspective.

10 I want to thank you for the opportunity 

11 to speak with you today. I want to talk about 

12 how Xcel Energy and the utility industry need a 

13 new business motto.

14 I worked for Public Service Company which 

15 is one of the three fathers of Xcel Energy for 18 

16 years. I was on the team that decommissioned the 

17 Fort Saint Vrain Nuclear Power Plant.

18 I helped the corporation to develop and 

19 implement business strategy. And I'm going to 

20 refer to the business case from 1996, the 1997 

21 business plan built on that case for the Arapaho 

22 Power Plant. I've kept these documents because 

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1 they marked a substantial change in the utility's 

2 purpose and planning including a growing focus on 

3 short-range financial return. 

4 In the business plan there is no mention 

5 of alternative energy either as a business 

6 strategy or as a customer demand. Environment 

7 issues exist only in terms of meeting regulatory 

8 demands. 

9 The 1996 business plans assumptions were 

10 a highly competitive environment that the 

11 industry will be unbundled, that rates will be 

12 market-based and generation will be unregulated 

13 in the near term. 

14 The Arapaho Power Plant we'll here is a 

15 four-unit fossil power plant that produced, when 

16 it was working well, 246 megawatts. It's a small 

17 plant. It was the site of an integrated dry-knox 

18 SO2 emission control system study based in 

19 funding from the Department of Energy and the 

20 company. The measures were environmental 

21 compliance on capacity, knox SO2 and any 

22 available exceptions. That was about the same 

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1 amount of time then as you are giving the power 

2 plants now. Had they implemented then we would 

3 not have these questions now. That's one of the 

4 reasons for using examples from this particular 

5 set of business cases. 

6 What they did do that year was buy from 

7 March to November Powder River Basin coal which 

8 indeed raised the price. The company vision was 

9 to provide safe, reliable electric and gas energy 

10 and value-added related services at competitive 

11 prices to new and existing customers. 

12 Environment and alternative energy 

13 solutions could have been, at that time, an 

14 emerging business opportunity. There were new 

15 customers, there was value-added service that was 

16 not included in their thinking. 

17 My second point involves being a 

18 treasurer for a 12-unit condominium which on 

19 Colfax and York, right up the street here. We 

20 are a group of middle to low-income owners with 

21 elders, veterans, disabled, and single parents as 

22 part of our very small mix. The utility bill is 

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1 our major vulnerability to being able to afford 

2 to say in our condos. It's over 6,000 in the 

3 winter. With one-third government grant funding 

4 and two-thirds private financing, we have 

5 installed solar for the hot water system. Our 

6 only solution for our winter heating bill, our 

7 single largest expense would be geothermal. 

8 So a little digression maybe. Three 

9 years ago I visited my niece in Demark, her 

10 husband was installing geothermal for their 

11 house. The government, the Danish government, 

12 loaned the money for the hardware and sent an 

13 installation coach, something like a county 

14 agent, to their house. In one week they dug it, 

15 they laid the serpentine, they installed the 

16 house equipment, and they relandscaped. My niece 

17 pays the government loan back from money that 

18 would have gone to their utility bill. 

19 Simple solutions like this threaten the 

20 utility's current business models. Right now 

21 Xcel and the industry want to stop purchasing 

22 excess generation from alternative sites and 

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1 charge anyone who further generates alternative 

2 energy. Our condominium would in essence be 

3 fined for further solar or geothermal 

4 applications. 

5 The government has always been in the 

6 utility business, not only as a regulator, family 

7 stories tell about the government men arriving on 

8 our farms telling us about taking windmills out 

9 and installing electricity. 

10 What is needed is that kind of support 

11 from the financial government today to not only 

12 regulate, but fund needed change. 

13 I am for hundreds of thousands of small 

14 producing units that houses, condos and 

15 neighborhoods and then for Xcel earning that as 

16 they help the company help the country help the 

17 climate and help the future. Thank you.

18 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Wilcox.

19 Mr. Chavez-Davis.

20 MR. CHAVEZ-DAVIS: Thank you, hello, my 

21 name is Dustin Chavez Davis, that's D-u-s-t-i-n 

22 C-h-a-v-e-z dash D-a-v-i-s. 

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1 First off, good afternoon. I want to 

2 thank you all for the opportunity to speak here 

3 today in favor of the proposed EPA clean power 

4 plan and strict regulations on carbon emissions. 

5 I believe that this effort will lead to reduced 

6 carbon emissions from power plants and help open 

7 the door to a clean power future.

8 Again, my name is Dustin and I am 

9 currently serving as an organizing representative 

10 from the Sierra Club based in Albuquerque, New 

11 Mexico, working on the Our Wild America campaign 

12 which is focused on conservation of our public 

13 lands, protection of our resources and clean

14 energy issues. 

15 I also am serving as a board member for 

16 the community-based organizing group, Southwest 

17 Organizing Project, which is also based in 

18 Albuquerque which works towards a goal of racial 

19 and gender equality, social economic, and 

20 environmental justice for disenfranchised 

21 communities in the southwest.

22 Today my generation faces one of 

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1 humanities greatest challenges, the threats of 

2 manmade climate change have already begun to 

3 impact our communities and especially our 

4 cultural and economic viability. 

5 Increased greenhouse gases in our 

6 atmosphere have resulted in more severe droughts, 

7 widespread wildfires and an increase in extreme 

8 weather across the southwestern region and across 

9 the rest of the planet. 

10 The EPA's new clean power plan, is a step 

11 in the right direction towards addressing our 

12 nation's dependence on fossil fuels and moving us 

13 toward a new and clean energy future.

14 Communities of color have often borne the 

15 brunts of our harmful energy extraction and 

16 experienced the worst side effects of our energy 

17 production cycle. Harmful carbon and particulate 

18 pollution make air quality in the four corners 

19 region of New Mexico, at times, worse than the 

20 smog found in big cities like Los Angeles.

21 Stores of coal, natural gas and oil, make 

22 this area a hot bed of energy extraction. This 

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1 mad rush to mine, drill, and burn off our natural 

2 resources, often fails to take into account the 

3 effect on our communities, on our environment and 

4 the cost and effect on future generations in 

5 favor of temporary profit and short-term gain.

6 In March our community members in 

7 Albuquerque organized a rally for renewables and 

8 demonstrated at the PNM shareholders meeting to 

9 send a clear message to New Mexico's largest 

10 public service company. What we told them was, 

11 that our communities are ready for clean energy 

12 investments. We know that we can power our 

13 country without polluting our precious air and 

14 water resources. Especially in the desert 

15 southwest, it's really important that we focus on 

16 technologies that reduce the amount of water that 

17 it takes to produce our energy, and solar and 

18 wind are great opportunities for that.

19 The Southwest Organizing Project has 

20 helped aid organized communities to form bucket 

21 brigades and take action into their own hands to 

22 monitor the air quality in their neighborhoods. 

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1 With industry often located right next door to 

2 vulnerable communities, the health effects are 

3 often in evidence. 

4 A recent poll found that more than 84 

5 percent of Latinos in New Mexico want PNM to 

6 increase their use of renewables like solar and 

7 wind. Developing more clean energy means more 

8 jobs, less pollution, and improved public health.

9 New Mexico is prime for the clean energy 

10 future with an abundance of sunshine and wind 

11 resources. These alternative energy options can 

12 provide jobs and help transition our dependence 

13 on a finite and dwindling fossil fuel reserve.

14 We need to look at the cost of inaction, 

15 and realize that our future depends on our 

16 ability to adapt to a changing climate and 

17 address the challenges presented from a warming 

18 planet. 

19 Again, I just want to emphasize that I 

20 support a strong clean power plan, that aims to 

21 reduce carbon emissions.

22 Thank you.

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1 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Chavez-Davis. 

2 Mr. Rivera.

3 MR. RIVERA: Hello, my name is Isaac 

4 Rivera. That's I-s-a-a-c R-i-v-e-r-a. Thank you 

5 for having me. 

6 My name is Isaac Rivera, I am a graduate 

7 student in the department of geography at the 

8 University of Colorado and I am also a researcher 

9 at the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

10 I speak to you today to give my voice to 

11 the growing call for an immediate paradigm shift 

12 in thinking from the EPA. The proposed carbon 

13 regulations on coal-fired plants are far too 

14 lenient and relaxed. 

15 For the span of my lifetime, this 

16 government and EPA have done little to nothing to 

17 reduce the known toxic greenhouse gasses and 

18 toxic carcinogens into our environment. I am 

19 appalled that my country is failing miserably at 

20 leading the effort to minimize carbon emissions 

21 around the world.

22 Not only are we failing miserably, we are 

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1 effectively sabotaging any efforts to come up 

2 with any meaningful international treaty. I 

3 can't stress it enough. We are running out of 

4 time. 

5 If we are serious about staying under a 

6 two degree Celsius limit, as proposed by the U.N.

7 benchmark, we need to act now. With just less 

8 than one degree rise in global mean temperatures, 

9 we have successfully melted the Arctic, set the 

10 collapse of the Antarctic ice sheet, and have 

11 successfully set in motion the sixth great 

12 extinction of the earth. 

13 While my statements might not be the 

14 mainstream on our joke of a free press in this 

15 country, they are the mainstream among the 

16 scientific community.

17 I urge the EPA, Region Eight, to help us 

18 where our state government has abandoned us. 

19 Please help us, as our governor has pressed forth 

20 with more drilling of oil and gas. 

21 My colleagues at CU have empirical 

22 evidence that throws the EPA estimate of methane 

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1 leaks into serious question. About 60 percent 

2 under estimated leaks from the EPA are lacking.

3 I urge an immediate moratorium until we 

4 have the science that proves beyond a doubt that 

5 it is safe.

6 While I understand that just about any 

7 regulation in this country is labeled as a 

8 radical, I would inform the EPA that the people 

9 of this region, the state, and this country will 

10 support your efforts in implementing regulations 

11 that reflect the urgency of our situation. 

12 This should not be a question of if or 

13 when, but why. Why would you not reduce 

14 emissions, given the technologies at hand, that 

15 are on standby and have been prepared by NRL 

16 scientists? This is a moral obligation to the 

17 elders on this panel, in the name of humanity.

18 Why is it that minority communities are 

19 at the front gates of toxic oil spills, super 

20 fund sites, and are living daily in the shadow of 

21 coal burning power plants. Why? 

22 But while it is no secret that minorities 

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1 have dealt with the devastating health impacts, 

2 we know that pollution does not recognize borders 

3 or ideologies. This affects us all.

4 The economics are real, and that our coal 

5 mining friends' jobs are at risk, basic free6 markets tell us so. 

7 So I urge the EPA to work with the 

8 administration to get training and educational 

9 opportunities to our fine brothers and sisters in 

10 alternative energy sectors, such as solar and 

11 wind. Their health, our health, and the health 

12 of every ecosystem in this world is connected.

13 So I urge the EPA to stand and live up to 

14 its' duty in protecting the public's health. 

15 I also urge the EPA to take a moral stand 

16 for our children, for our health and for setting 

17 a precedent in history that it was the year 2014 

18 that America finally came together to lead the 

19 world into a livable 21st century instead of 

20 actively and selfishly destroying it for short21 term profit. Another world is possible and I 

22 hope to see the day that where energy is finally 

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1 used freely from the sun instead of for geo2 political and economic power. 

3 In closing, I want to thank the EPA for 

4 their great work. I know the politics in this 

5 country aren't quite there, but the urgency is. 

6 So thank you.

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Rivera. 

8 If I can have, Susan Permut, Mitti Aponte 

9 and Chris Applegate please come up. Are you Ms. 

10 Permut?

11 MS. PERMUT: I am.

12 MS. SUTIN: So you'll be first.

13 MS. PERMUT: My name is Susan Permut, I 

14 live in Monument, Colorado and for the last two 

15 years I have been ten miles, just about, from 

16 both of the fires near Colorado Springs. The 

17 water canyon fire and also the black forest fire 

18 and I have had to get all my stuff ready to 

19 evacuate and it's terrifying. 

20 And I would really support the EPA's 

21 effort to limit carbon pollution from power 

22 plants. I think it's a crucial step towards 

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1 protecting global health and safety. I do think 

2 that the proposed clean power plan falls short of 

3 what is needed. I think that what we need is 

4 obtaining at least 80 percent of our energy from 

5 clean, renewable sources such as wind and solar 

6 by 2015. 

7 I would like the EPA to call for more 

8 ambitious reductions of at least 40 percent below 

9 1990 levels by 2020, and ensure that states stick 

10 to the schedule by allowing for no extensions on 

11 plans for 2020.

12 States should be encouraged to achieve 

13 these goals by closing as many fossil fuel plants 

14 as possible through maximizing efficiency and 

15 aggressively ramping up renewables. Encouraging 

16 increased reliance on natural gas will not lead 

17 to the necessary emission reductions. 

18 The rules should encourage clean 

19 renewable energy, rather than dirty natural gas. 

20 Natural gas is very bad for the environment and 

21 it's not a solution. So switching from coal to 

22 renewable energy makes much more sense from both 

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1 an economic and a climate perspective.

2 Thank you for letting me have my two 

3 minutes, I appreciate it very much.

4 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. Ms. Permut, can 

5 you just spell your name for the court reporter.

6 MS. PERMIT: It's S-u-s-a-n, P as in Paul 

7 e-r-m-u-t.

8 Thank you. Mitty, is it Aponte?

9 MS. APONTE: Yes, Mitty Aponte. And 

10 I'll make my remarks very brief. My name is 

11 Mitty Aponte, I am a newly admitted resident to 

12 the state of Colorado, having spent the last ten 

13 years in our nation's capital. 

14 I owe much of my political and 

15 professional career to my time in Washington, 

16 witnessing the inner workings of the government 

17 and crafting strategic talking points that would 

18 influence an audience or lobby on their behalf, 

19 be it the constituent, the congressional 

20 representative, the corporate decisionmaker or 

21 the NGO leader. 

22 In Washington, the center of the world is 

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1 Washington. I have learned since my arrival, 

2 perhaps, humbly so, that the real world exists 

3 everywhere else. Among those folks that we 

4 condescendingly call, "ordinary Americans". 

5 The decision you are about to embark on, 

6 has a direct impact on the lives -- the precious 

7 lives of children and teachers, business owners, 

8 community activists, pastors, preachers, fathers, 

9 mothers, grandparents, Latinas, African 

10 Americans, Muslim, Christian, Jews and every 

11 other group you could possibly imagine who make 

12 up the fabric of our country. And who get up 

13 each day, right here in Colorado, existing under 

14 the threat of air pollution with every breath 

15 that is taken, and sometimes they don't even --

16 they're not aware.

17 It is time to protect, and it is time 

18 that -- it is to them, that you must answer to 

19 and to them that we have a moral obligation to 

20 protect. 

21 Many statistics have been cited today, 

22 studies on the impact of climate change have been 

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1 referenced and you have heard thousands of voices 

2 advocating for the support of the clean power 

3 plan. To these, add myself.

4 As we think about minority audiences, we 

5 usually have a certain typical frame in mind, but 

6 I am a Latina, I am a Cuban-American, I grew up 

7 near a power plant and I have battled asthma 

8 throughout my entire life. I sleep with an 

9 inhaler on my nightstand, and I make sure that 

10 there is always one on me, in my purse or in my 

11 backpack, or my car. Do I owe my condition to 

12 air pollution? I'm not entirely sure. There are 

13 likely many contributing factors to it. However, 

14 I cannot deny its link. 

15 So today I strongly support the 

16 Environmental Protection Agency and hope that it 

17 will protect the health and safety of people like 

18 me, and ordinary Americans who live extraordinary 

19 lives from the dangers of carbon pollution in our 

20 nation's power plants.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

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1 Mr. Applegate, go ahead.

2 MR. APPLEGATE: Good afternoon. Thank 

3 you for allowing public comment for the proposed 

4 clean power plan. 

5 My name is Chris Applegate and I was born 

6 and raised in the Ozark Mountains of Missouri, 

7 and I am now living here in Colorado, working in 

8 the oil and gas industry. I am here, downtown.

9 I am here today to speak in favor though, 

10 of the plan that the EPA has put forward. I 

11 don't believe that our future is doomed if we 

12 move to a renewable energy future. I don't 

13 believe we are going to live with the lights off. 

14 I don't believe we are going to be using horse 

15 and buggy. This coming from someone that works 

16 in the industry that we are trying to move away 

17 from.

18 I may work in the fossil fuel industry, 

19 but it doesn't mean I don't care about our 

20 climate. What I do believe, is that this plan 

21 offers our country a great opportunity. I 

22 believe it will make us a world champion on 

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1 solving our future energy problems. I believe 

2 that the millions of people in communities that 

3 are subjected to power plants that emit large 

4 amounts of pollution directly in their backyards, 

5 are going to see a healthier future.

6 The clean power plan will create 

7 healthier communities, jobs and will help protect 

8 our heritage for future generations. Our 

9 communities are at risk as well. My hometown of 

10 Branson, Missouri has been impacted from droughts 

11 and three major flooding events in the past 

12 decade. Residents in the area are weary and have 

13 noticed a change in the climate. 

14 My grandmother's home has been subjected 

15 to flooding that has never occurred before, 

16 except over the past decade. She has had over 

17 three flooding events in her home. She has had 

18 to install a water pump, replace carpet multiple 

19 times, and work aggressively to reduce the amount 

20 of runoff hitting her home. It was no easy task 

21 to deal with, and completely unexpected.

22 Our community has been hit by floods, 

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1 droughts and twisters, one of which, even 

2 impacted my mom and dad, and community friends 

3 just two years ago. Some of my family items were 

4 found up to 500 yards away from their home, some 

5 of which were found in a cemetery, which really 

6 makes me blessed that my parents were not injured 

7 or killed like countless others in communities 

8 across the country due to these extreme events.

9 These series of events in the past decade 

10 have shown our community that the climate is 

11 changing, and is having a real economic impact on 

12 our livelihoods.

13 Even though our climate may be changing, 

14 there is hope. The clean power plan is a step 

15 toward a better tomorrow. It is a step that we 

16 are long overdue to take. It is a progress 

17 towards a future with cleaner air and water for 

18 every community across our country. 

19 I don't see coal jobs or my job just 

20 disappearing with nowhere to go. I see these 

21 jobs moving with our ever-changing economy. I 

22 already know some coal miners back in Oklahoma 

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1 that now work in other sectors of the economy 

2 today.

3 I see no harm in these rules that will 

4 affect me, other than creating cleaner air and 

5 water for myself and every American around the 

6 country. We need to be investing in technologies 

7 that will power us forward in the 21st century. 

8 We can solve our climate issues, protect our 

9 economy, and make the air we breathe and the 

10 water we drink cleaner. 

11 Clean energy is on the rise and our 

12 economy has not tanked, quite opposite. We are 

13 adding jobs, unemployment rates are at the lowest 

14 since at the height of the great recession, our 

15 economy is moving towards clean energy just too 

16 slow. 

17 This plan will boost investment and 

18 continue the job growth we have been witnessing. 

19 I hope the clean power plan is adopted because 

20 the cost of inaction will be greater if we don't 

21 act now. Thank you.

22 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Applegate. 

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1 Okay, we are going to take a 15 minute 

2 break. Our next speaker isn't until 6:20 or so. 

3 So feel free to wait and we'll start up again 

4 around 6:15.

5 (Brief recess taken at 6:00 p.m.)

6 (Record resumes at 6:17 p.m.)

7 MS. SUTIN: Okay. We're going to get 

8 started again. If I can have George Walker and 

9 James Cody come up to the podium. Are you --

10 MR. CODY: James Cody.

11 MS. SUTIN: James Cody. Is George Walker 

12 here? Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Cody.

13 MR. CODY: Can you hear me, is this on?

14 MS. SUTIN: Why don't you use that one. 

15 Oh, that one may be off too.

16 MR. CODY: Okay. I can speak louder. 

17 Good evening, my name is James Cody and I am here 

18 tonight in support of the proposed emission 

19 standards which would put our country on a path 

20 towards sustainability.

21 I am here tonight representing myself, 

22 and before I begin, I would like to thank you for 

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1 hearing my opinion tonight. 

2 I am 22 years old and currently living in 

3 Boulder, Colorado, and I am entering my senior 

4 year, currently studying psychology and 

5 sociology. All around the world, people are 

6 beginning to feel the effects of climate change. 

7 Severe droughts in California, which is the 

8 U.S.'s number one agricultural producer. 

9 Acidification of our fisheries in the northeast, 

10 and rising sea levels in Bangladesh, which are on 

11 pace to displace millions. 

12 Here in Colorado, warming river 

13 temperatures are beginning to threaten native 

14 fisheries, changing climate is affecting 

15 snowfall, and we are experiencing severe forest 

16 fires, which in 2012 and 2013 burned down almost 

17 250,000 acres of forest here in Colorado.

18 The resources we use are finite and if we 

19 want to secure a sustainable energy system for 

20 our future, it is critical we act now. 

21 A few years back, I was able to take a 

22 life-changing trip to Patagonia, Chile, where my 

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1 understanding between human and environment 

2 interaction changed. No longer was I blind from 

3 the natural world, and I began to notice just how 

4 much human life has impacted climate and our 

5 ecosystems around the world.

6 Adopting carbon pollution standards are 

7 important to me because that means that future 

8 generations will have the same opportunity to 

9 experience the natural world as I had the ability 

10 to. If we delay any longer, in curbing our CO2 

11 emissions, we risk destroying our environment and 

12 hindering future generations' ability to learn 

13 and grow from the interactions with nature.

14 By taking a stand today, and adopting the 

15 proposed carbon emission standards, we will be 

16 taking a step forward in securing a sustainable 

17 planet for our future and helping preserve our 

18 great outdoors for future generations to come.

19 The proposed carbon pollution standards 

20 plan will help protect human and environmental 

21 health, while still providing Colorado with 

22 sustainable energy to the state of Colorado.

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1 Thank you.

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Cody. 

3 Would you mind just spelling your name 

4 for the court reporter?

5 MR. CODY: Yeah. The first and last or--

6 MS. SUTIN: Last is fine.

7 MR. CODY: C-o-d-y.

8 MS. SUTIN: Okay. If I could have 

9 William Owens?

10 MR. OWENS: Is this on?

11 MS. SUTIN: You know, the system is shut 

12 down and won't start up again until 6:30. So, 

13 I'm sorry.

14 MR. OWENS: Doggone, it must be in the 

15 union.

16 PARTICIPANT: The system is going to shut 

17 down at 6:30?

18 MS. SUTIN: Oh, it is?

19 PARTICIPANT: Yeah.

20 MS. SUTIN: Oh, other way around. It's 

21 working. 

22 MR. OWENS: It is working?

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1 MS. SUTIN: Sorry, it is going to shut --

2 MR. OWENS: Are we working? Testing, 

3 one, two. 

4 MS. SUTIN: Yeah.

5 MR. OWENS: Great. This is my audition 

6 for Channel 4.

7 Now, you all should have copies of the 

8 transcript there; right?

9 MS. SUTIN: Uh-huh. 

10 MR. OWENS: Okay. Cool. All right, well 

11 my name is William Owens. I am a resident of 

12 Santeo, (ph) Colorado and my last name is spelled 

13 O-w-e-n-s. I have no other affiliation of 

14 particular to note. I would like to thank you 

15 for this opportunity to testify and I wanted to 

16 also give you the benefit of two testimonies in 

17 one timeslot, and I hope I can do that. Is that 

18 okay?

19 MS. SUTIN: You have five minutes.

20 MR. OWENS: Five minutes, good. Thank 

21 you very much. 

22 The first is from Ms. Leslie Weis of 

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1 Monument, Colorado, and then I will deliver my 

2 own testimony and finish within the five minute 

3 time limit, assuming I don't get choked up.

4 I've worked as an in-house -- this is Ms. 

5 Weis' testimony. I worked as an in-house 

6 counselor for Fortune 500 companies, focusing for 

7 the past 10 years, on those developing technology 

8 and products to displace fossil fuels from energy 

9 production. 

10 My eight-year-old son and I have 

11 witnessed, literally, from the roadside, three of 

12 Colorado's most destructive wildfires over the 

13 past three years. Boulder's four-mile canyon 

14 fire, the Wild Oak Canyon fire, the black forest 

15 fire that destroyed over 500 homes, including 

16 that of my sister. While it's disturbing that 

17 he's growing up believing that these wild fires 

18 are normal. Yet, he's academically advanced in 

19 science, so he was genuinely confused when his 

20 substitute teacher read to his class, a book 

21 about weather and then told the class that 

22 climate change was not true, but was something 

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1 made up by scientists.

2 Well, because of our knowledge and 

3 advocacy on the topic, that teacher was 

4 reprimanded and had to make a statement of 

5 correction to the class. 

6 Well, climate change denial also exists 

7 in the Colorado Springs City Council, which 

8 manages their electric utility. At city council 

9 meetings, I volunteer with a small group of 

10 community professionals to ensure that a blend of 

11 renewable energy and efficiency investments are 

12 included in the utility's plans to serve over 

13 500,000 people. 

14 Change won't be easy, because at last 

15 month's city council meeting, we heard two 

16 members of the city council profess to be climate 

17 change deniers. One of them, proudly stating 

18 that he had written extensively on the hoax.

19 Well, I've seen the real world impact of 

20 climate change and the catastrophic impact of the 

21 Colorado fires and the teachers and the council 

22 members' ignorance on the science of climate. 

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1 Therefore, I enthusiastically support the EPA's 

2 plans for carbon reduction standards so that this 

3 critical topic can be addressed, rather than 

4 ignored. 

5 That's the end of Ms. Weis' testimony, 

6 and my testimony follows.

7 This debate about CO2 and power 

8 production is often framed in the context of 

9 jobs. I am not here to deny the importance of 

10 jobs, I've been laid off a few times, so I fully 

11 appreciate the value of jobs. But we should also 

12 weigh the costs of CO2, and other harmful 

13 emissions from burning coal, because they impose 

14 a tremendous cost on human health.

15 The coal industry wants us to simply 

16 accept the value of the electricity they produce. 

17 They say that to do otherwise, will cost us jobs. 

18 You see, they are waving the jobs flag to 

19 distract us from the cost to life and health. 

20 The costs include, the negative impact to the 

21 agriculture that we need to sustain life, due to 

22 CO2-driven climate change. 

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1 Two, the increase in downwind 

2 debilitating in asthma cases. 

3 Three, breathing difficulties for others 

4 with impaired lungs due to nitrous and sulfurous 

5 oxides from older plants, and yes, it even 

6 affects our diet because we are recommended to

7 reduce or eliminate the consumption of coal plant 

8 mercury-laden tuna from our diet, especially for 

9 pregnant women.

10 So as we hear the coal industry's 

11 argument on behalf of jobs, we must also consider 

12 the cost of public health. We should ask, how 

13 many created or saved coal industry jobs are 

14 needed to offset the cost of the lives they 

15 compromise. We can do better. 

16 I urge that the EPA's proposed 

17 regulations be adopted, substantially as 

18 proposed. We have to start somewhere and this is 

19 a small, but important step toward doing better. 

20 And part of that solution, to reach the 30 

21 percent CO2 reduction, could be to use more clean 

22 and renewable energy sources. They too, create 

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1 jobs as we've seen, for example, in our own state 

2 with Vestis up in Brighton, Colorado. But they 

3 don't cost lives and health, like coal plants to.

4 Well, on behalf of Ms. Leslie Weis and 

5 myself, thank you for this opportunity to 

6 testify. Thank you.

7 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Owens. 

8 Next, if I can have Angela Stephens.

9 MS. STEPHENS: Hello. Angela Stephens, 

10 S-t-e-p-h-e-n-s. 

11 Hi, I am Angela Stephens, a mom of a 10-

12 year-old son, who is here with me today. I am 

13 also here with Colorado Moms Know Best, a network 

14 of moms working to protect Colorado's air for our 

15 children's health and well-being. 

16 I am also an active member of my 

17 community, as a leader living in one of 

18 Lakewood's sustainable neighborhoods.

19 I am here today in support of the new 

20 proposed carbon emissions standards. We cannot 

21 wait any longer to solve any of the issues 

22 related to our changing climate. All too often 

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1 we distance ourselves from our environment, and 

2 the impact we have on it. It's time we move on 

3 from that way of thinking and support new ideas 

4 and solutions. 

5 I support strong action to further limit 

6 carbon in the atmosphere and to continue 

7 protecting our relivable environment. 

8 I'm working on a local level to do that 

9 within my household, my neighborhood, and 

10 community. In my sustainable neighborhood, we 

11 are educating our neighbors about the impact we 

12 have on our air, water, land, and health. We 

13 have our own goals to reduce our carbon emissions 

14 in our community. We hold energy-related 

15 workshops and educational outreach to help others 

16 get on the path to a sustainable future. 

17 I would like to see this take place on a 

18 grander scale, by implementing the new clean 

19 power plan for emission standards.

20 Recently scientists at NOAA in Hawaii, 

21 reported that the last three months, April, May 

22 and June had averaged levels of carbon dioxide 

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1 above 400 parts per million. It's the longest 

2 period in known history where this much carbon 

3 dioxide has been in the atmosphere. Scientists 

4 are concerned that this landmark threshold is now 

5 becoming the norm. This is what keeps me and 

6 many other moms, up at night. It's time to act 

7 to keep that level from getting any higher.

8 Most scientists believe in their current 

9 conservative estimate, that things will get worse 

10 before they get better. This is the time to 

11 support policies that bring down our carbon 

12 emissions, and we need to consider all sources of 

13 carbon to truly be effective. 

14 Regulating carbon emissions from coal 

15 plants will be the most significant thing we 

16 Americans have ever done to address climate 

17 change, and this is an opportunity to implement a 

18 successful plan for our children's future. We 

19 can lead other nations in reducing carbon 

20 emissions, while having a lasting, positive 

21 impact on the environment and the health of our 

22 children for future generations to come.

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1 Thank you, very much.

2 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Ms. Stephens.

3 Next, if I could have Megan Cowley.

4 MS. COWLEY: So my name is Megan Cowley, 

5 C-o-w-l-e-y. Good evening. 

6 I'd first like to thank you all for 

7 giving me the opportunity to speak today. My 

8 name is Megan Cowley, I'm 21 years old and I am a 

9 recent graduate from the University of British 

10 Columbia in Vancouver, but I'm a native 

11 Coloradan. 

12 I am here tonight representing myself, in 

13 support of the proposed carbon pollution standard 

14 rules. These rules are beneficial as they work 

15 towards maintaining an affordable, reliable 

16 energy system, while cutting pollution levels and 

17 protecting our health and environment. The plan 

18 is also both realistic and flexible, as it aims 

19 to standardize carbon pollution levels of power 

20 plants, while leaving it up to each state to set 

21 their own levels. 

22 With regard to the current issue of 

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1 climate change, we have never been more 

2 vulnerable as a human race, than we are right 

3 now, which is why these proposed rules are so 

4 crucial. 

5 Carbon emissions are contributing to an 

6 intense alteration of our atmosphere, leading to 

7 severe weather patterns that are destroying our 

8 communities. Immensely destructive droughts, 

9 massive forest fires and severe floods are 

10 occurring more often, and on larger scales.

11 The connection between the levels of 

12 carbon pollution we are putting into the air, and 

13 these destructive weather events, is clearly 

14 evident. Global warming is occurring and we, as 

15 productive human beings, are acting out of 

16 selfish personal interests for profit. The 

17 consequences are getting nastier, and we really 

18 need to act right now.

19 Last summer, communities all over 

20 Colorado were devastated with the floods that 

21 forced the state into an emergency state of 

22 disaster on September 12, 2013. Three days after 

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1 the declaration, counties including Boulder had 

2 received up to 17 inches of rain, which is the 

3 annual recorded rainfall for the county for a 

4 whole year. Fifteen hundred homes were 

5 completely destroyed, with another 19,000 

6 severely damaged. At least eight people died 

7 during the disaster, innumerable amounts were 

8 declared missing, and over 1,500 people had to be 

9 evacuated from their homes.

10 Even in my hometown of Evergreen, up in 

11 the mountains, we were getting hit harder by 

12 rainfall than ever before. The gorgeous 

13 Evergreen Lake was completely overflowing into 

14 the streets, and everyone in the area was trapped 

15 from getting in or out of their homes for days. 

16 Our local bar on the river was completely washed 

17 away and had to close down for three months for 

18 repairs. 

19 Over those two weeks, I watched my home 

20 and the rest of the state that I know and love, 

21 go completely under water, and I have never felt 

22 so helpless. It scared me because there was 

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1 nothing we could do to stop the rain, and it 

2 angered me because the severe weather was unusual 

3 for a reason.

4 The personal damage and losses that 

5 occurred last year were invaluable. People lost 

6 their lives. Evergreen Lake is still under 

7 repair. All of this death and destruction 

8 possibly could have been controlled, had we 

9 addressed this issue of climate change sooner 

10 than now. 

11 Our cities cannot continue to fall, due 

12 to something as powerful and relentless as a 

13 severe weather event. It would be both extremely 

14 irresponsible and unwise not to address our 

15 contribution to global warming, head-on, right 

16 now.

17 We should not consciously allow these 

18 destructive and life-ruining events to continue 

19 to occur and worsen, leaving it up to our 

20 children and our future generations to handle. 

21 If we had the option to lower carbon emissions 

22 and clean up our energy systems, why wouldn't we. 

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1 We shouldn't be in the place we are now, but we 

2 are. It is time to act, and the clean power plan 

3 is a step in the right direction to a cleaner and 

4 safer planet.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. SUTIN: Thank you Ms. Cowley. 

7 Next if we can have Spencer Carnes.

8 MR. CARNES: Good evening. Thank you for 

9 having me here today. My name is Spencer Carnes, 

10 spelled C-a-r-n-e-s, and I am here today as a 

11 young person, a student, and as an individual who 

12 wishes to one day provide for his children and 

13 set them up to provide for their own.

14 I am here today to voice my support for 

15 the proposed carbon emission standards. It is my 

16 duty, as a citizen living under a contaminated 

17 sky, as a student realizing the impacts theorized

18 by the discourse surrounding the potential 

19 impacts of climate change. And as the generation 

20 charged with siring the next, to impart the 

21 importance and relevance these regulations have 

22 in my life.

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1 Due to the distance presented by the 

2 studies, and the complex nature of the topic, it 

3 is hard to give a useful, progressive, five4 minute testimony on the reduction of carbon 

5 standards, so let me stick to what I know. 

6 What I know is that, as human beings, and 

7 as all life on earth, everything is fragile. For 

8 all we know, we are the only organic life to 

9 exist in what is an unfathomably large universe. 

10 Therefore, it is logical to assume that we will 

11 never find a habitable ecosystem outside the one 

12 that we have been given by chance. And if this 

13 is the case, then it is our duty to maintain the 

14 ecosystem for generations to come.

15 It would be historically greedy to argue 

16 that the ecosystem exclusively belongs to solely 

17 this population in this moment of history. It is 

18 our duty to protect the ecosystem in the name of 

19 all that we have worked for as a society and all 

20 that we may continue to work for in the future. 

21 As a person living under the sky this society has 

22 contaminated and damaged, I am excited at the 

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1 opportunity to reduce our impact on the planet 

2 for the sake of future generations.

3 People often ask me why I decided to 

4 major in English and political science, two 

5 highly unrelated topics. But the fact of the 

6 matter is that the two are not so different. 

7 Politics is the filter through which human beings 

8 interact and contain their disagreements. 

9 English is the language with which the majority 

10 of the American people engage in their political 

11 discourse. 

12 The reason I concentrate on these 

13 particular schools of trade, is because I desire 

14 to facilitate the conversations that will enable 

15 my peers, our children, and the generations to 

16 come, to follow in their forefathers' dream of a 

17 pursuit of happiness.

18 Today we engage in such a conversation. 

19 Today the EPA takes the necessary steps in 

20 providing for our future as a race. I've said a 

21 lot today, I've talked about how hard I'm working 

22 to make the world a better place with my studies, 

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1 and about how hard I'm working to give my unborn 

2 children a future. I can't give you a bunch of 

3 science pertaining to the reduction of carbon 

4 standards, and there are plenty of people here 

5 that can. I am here to testify before you all 

6 today, to show you the importance and pertinence 

7 these regulations have in, not only my future, 

8 but the future of generations of great minds to 

9 come. And if these regulations are taken 

10 seriously and go without mutilation by large 

11 corporations attempting to protect their wallets, 

12 instead of the air they breathe, then the 

13 generations to come can use these regulations as 

14 a stepping stone to make the foundation for a new 

15 kind of environmentally friendly industrial 

16 society.

17 Thank you for your time.

18 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Carnes. 

19 Next if we can have Fabian Laguna.

20 MR. LAGUNA: Hi, my name is Fabian 

21 Laguna, spelled F-a-b-i-a-n L-a-g-u-n-a. 

22 I am an 18-year-old student at CU 

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1 Boulder, and a lifetime Coloradan. I am here 

2 today representing myself, and I would like to 

3 thank you for the opportunity.

4 I'm very eager to encourage the EPA to 

5 adopt the rules we've gathered for. Since the 

6 beginning of the industrial revolution, our 

7 frivolous use of finite resources on this planet 

8 has been leaving the natural habitat in an 

9 increasingly menacing state. While Colorado has 

10 taken many forward-thinking steps to ensure a 

11 healthier habitat, the dependency on carbon fuels 

12 that we have developed on this planet, and most 

13 of all, in this country, calls for a more 

14 immediate and comprehensive set of actions. 

15 Our earth is shifting aggressively in 

16 terms of climate. Regulating carbon emissions is 

17 a crucial step towards addressing the extreme 

18 dangers posed to our natural environment. As a 

19 person that has grown up at a time in which this 

20 planet has faced momentous technological 

21 innovation and scientific progress, I'm extremely 

22 excited for the future. 

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1 Yet, if we wish to progress any more as a 

2 human race, it is absolutely imperative that we 

3 have the healthy living space to do so. This is 

4 why now is the time to take steps in combating 

5 climate change and ensuring a healthy planet.

6 There are reasonable measures that we 

7 must take, that we can take at this moment, as 

8 inhabitants of this earth to ensure our well9 being and that of future generations. 

10 Regulating our carbon output is important 

11 resolution in this process. Aside from the 

12 environmental implications of using carbon as an 

13 energy source, there comes extreme economic 

14 irresponsibility. Given many recent 

15 technological advancements, we've shown the 

16 ability to create energy that is almost 

17 completely carbon neutral. Although the 

18 technology for renewable energy has yet to be 

19 refined, with the proper conditions, we will 

20 likely innovate these systems to become not only 

21 affordable, but also effective.

22 It is necessary to understand that our 

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1 dependence on finite resources must, and will, 

2 end eventually. Regulating carbon emissions is 

3 an extremely agreeable platform for states to 

4 follow and begin their inevitable journey to a 

5 more sustainable future. 

6 By instating this new regulation, the 

7 country will take a much needed step towards a 

8 potentially bright and distant future for 

9 humanity. We must not commit the same mistakes 

10 as our predecessors. We must be wise and plan 

11 for our future. Our destiny as beings in this 

12 universe is completely dependent on our decisions

13 here and now.

14 May I say, that as young intellects in 

15 this generation, we are in the process of 

16 preparing, molding, and initiating the next 

17 paradigm of our global civilization. Why not 

18 help us initiate the process of making this 

19 planet and this country more sustainable. For 

20 many generations to come will be extremely 

21 thankful of our forward-thinking approaches taken 

22 today. 

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1 As a young person, an American, and as a 

2 human being, I ask you to please hear my words. 

3 When I say that our future, my future, and our 

4 children's future, depend on our decisions here 

5 and now. Please allow our decisions to be 

6 forever regarded as wise. Please adopt the 

7 proposed rules.

8 Thank you for your time.

9 MS. SUTIN: Thank you, Mr. Laguna. 

10 Next, if we could have Leslie Glustrom.

11 MS. GLUSTROM: My name is Leslie 

12 Glustrom, L-e-s-l-i-e G-l-u-s-t-r-o-m. 

13 I live in Colorado, I've been working on 

14 climate change and energy issues for a long time. 

15 I recognized quite a long time ago that the key 

16 to this is not just how fabulous wind and solar 

17 are, but really understanding coal. So I've made 

18 it my business to know coal, one of my many

19 nicknames is queen of coal. I'm a geeky girl, I 

20 like a lot of data, you've heard a lot of words 

21 today, I brought a lot of data and graphs and 

22 I've given you just mostly the graphs. I'll 

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1 submit detailed comments down the road.

2 There's a very important message -- let 

3 me go back up and tell the personal story. I was 

4 part of the Boulder flood. My electric bill, on 

5 average, is about $1,000 a year, working in round 

6 numbers, $10,000 over a decade. Our flood 

7 recovery, which was relatively minor compared to 

8 most people, was $15,000. So if we add in those 

9 costs along with our electricity, all of a sudden 

10 instead of $10,000, we're looking at $25,000, so 

11 there's nothing cheap about coal.

12 We were relatively minor damage, we 

13 didn't lose any people, it was just carpet and 

14 drywall and a bunch of furniture and all that, 

15 but $15,000 is a really big deal, my husband is a 

16 teacher and I am a volunteer so it was a really 

17 big deal to us. So there's nothing cheap about 

18 coal if you consider external costs. 

19 Even if you don't consider external costs 

20 and you just look at the price of delivered coal, 

21 and I think this is the one I've put on top, here 

22 for Colorado -- we've analyzed this for every 

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1 state that uses coal, it's all available at 

2 cleanenergyaction.org, and you can see that the 

3 price of coal is going up, it's about doubled in 

4 a decade, it's going up about 7 percent a year, a 

5 little over 7 percent a year in Colorado. That's 

6 two to three times inflation, at least.

7 And one of the very important messages 

8 I'm hoping you ladies will make sure that the 

9 folks in D.C. understand, is that your model for 

10 analyzing the status quo, our reliance on coal, 

11 is flat wrong. That's the nicest thing I can say 

12 about your coal model. And I know you ladies 

13 probably didn't have anything to do with it, but 

14 you might understand that it's very hard to 

15 penetrate Washington D.C. I've been there many 

16 times, I've talked to EIA, I've talked to many 

17 people on the Hill. I've worked extremely hard, 

18 we've written two long reports, we had a front19 page story in the Wall Street Journal, you've got 

20 a copy of that in your packet.

21 The EPA is relying on the Energy 

22 Information Administration. Energy Information 

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1 Administration is flat wrong. So your model is 

2 flat wrong. It assumes that the more energy you 

3 demand, the more we're going to get. And we'll 

4 just open coal mines willy-nilly. 

5 Now you ask these young people how they 

6 feel about opening new coal mines. Independent 

7 of how they feel, there are very serious economic 

8 issues. We've written these all up in two 

9 reports, again, all available at 

10 cleanenergyaction.org. Because I am the queen of 

11 coal. One of them is called, warning faulty 

12 reporting of U.S. coal reserves. When your team, 

13 back in D.C. understands this, you will start to 

14 have a much better coal report, coal model, and 

15 you'll also have a much better assessment of the 

16 economic costs -- or savings of this proposal 

17 that you've made.

18 Just to show you a little bit of data, 

19 near the front of your packet, I realize I don't 

20 have it in -- as in the flood, my house is still 

21 a disaster, is U.S. coal production. You can see 

22 that we very likely peaked in 2008, that we have 

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1 fallen off significantly since then. I know most 

2 of the large coal mines in the United States, I 

3 know their geology, I know there economics, I 

4 know a huge about them, I obviously can't tell 

5 you that in five minutes. But I need you all to 

6 carry this message to D.C., so that the folks in 

7 D.C. quit acting like their in this echo chamber, 

8 where they assume that the EIA knows what they're 

9 talking about, because respectfully, the EIA 

10 doesn't. That's why we had a front-page story in 

11 the Wall Street Journal that's in your packet.

12 It's the geology, we've accessed the 

13 easily accessible coal, it's getting much harder 

14 to do it now. So it's becoming much more 

15 expensive. 

16 Wyoming coal production has fallen off 

17 dramatically, Colorado coal production has fallen 

18 off dramatically. All of this is available in 

19 two companion reports at cleanenergyaction.org.

20 I'm begging the EPA to look at the data, 

21 start at cleanenergyaction.org, we've got lots of 

22 blogs, lots of reports, I think you probably have 

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1 my contact information somewhere. And, you know, 

2 we come free, we know the data, we've analyzed 

3 it, endlessly. 

4 And then another -- Ron Lair who spoke 

5 this morning was our former chair of Utilities 

6 Commission, just talked about how adding wind and 

7 solar will reduce our system costs in Colorado. 

8 In your packet is a short report I wrote for one 

9 of our local groups, and just talking about all 

10 of the evidence we have in Colorado, that adding 

11 wind and solar saves costs, it doesn't add costs.

12 So those are the sorts of things we hope 

13 you'll use our expertise to understand at a 

14 deeper level.

15 MS. SUTIN: Thank you. 

16 At this time, we are going to close this 

17 hearing room. There will be additional speakers 

18 in room A. So if you were here to speak, move to 

19 room A. If you're here to listen, also move to 

20 room A. We will be here until 8:00. I am 

21 officially closing the evening session of July 

22 29th. Thank you all for coming.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
438

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2 [Whereupon, at 7:01 p.m., the Clean Power 

3 Plan Public Hearing, Room B, concluded.]

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OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376