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40–858 PDF 2008

FULL COMMITTEE HEARING ON

MAINTAINING PUBLIC LANDS FOR

HUNTING, FISHING, RANCHING

AND SMALL BUSINESSES

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF 

REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

APRIL 17, 2008

Serial Number 110-85

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

CHARLIE GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KEVIN FITZPATRICK, Minority Staff Director

STANDING SUBCOMMITTEES 

Subcommittee on Finance and Tax

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois, Chairwoman 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida, Ranking 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

STEVE KING, Iowa

Subcommittee on Contracting and Technology

BRUCE BRALEY, IOWA, Chairman 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee, Ranking 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma

(II) 

Subcommittee on Regulations, Health Care and Trade

CHARLES GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas, Chairman 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia, Ranking 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida

Subcommittee on Urban and Rural Entrepreneurship

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina, Chairman 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska, Ranking 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee

Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight

JASON ALTMIRE, PENNSYLVANIA, Chairman 

CHARLIE GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page

Vela ́zquez, Hon. Nydia M. ....................................................................................... 1

Chabot, Hon. Steve .................................................................................................. 2

WITNESSES

PANEL I: 

Allred, The Honorable C. Stephen, Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals 

Management, U.S. Department of the Interior ................................................. 4

PANEL II: 

Amerine, Mr. Gary, Greys River Trophies, Daniel, WY ....................................... 18

Dvorak, Mr. Bill, Dvorak Expeditions, Nathrop, CO ............................................ 19

Velasquez, Mr. Chris, Rancher, Blanco, NM ......................................................... 21

Moyer, Mr. Scott, Down Valley Septic and Drain, Rifle, CO ............................... 23

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Vela ́zquez, Hon. Nydia M. ....................................................................................... 36

Chabot, Hon. Steve .................................................................................................. 38

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 39

Allred, The Honorable C. Stephen, Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals 

Management, U.S. Department of the Interior ................................................. 40

Amerine, Mr. Gary, Greys River Trophies, Daniel, WY ....................................... 46

Dvorak, Mr. Bill, Dvorak Expeditions, Nathrop, CO ............................................ 50

Velasquez, Mr. Chris, Rancher, Blanco, NM ......................................................... 55

Moyer, Mr. Scott, Down Valley Septic and Drain, Rifle, CO ............................... 65

(V) 

(1)

FULL COMMITTEE HEARING ON 

MAINTAINING 

PUBLIC LANDS FOR HUNTING, FISHING, 

RANCHING AND SMALL BUSINESSES 

Thursday, April 17, 2008

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:43 a.m., in Room 

1539, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Nydia M. Vela ́zquez 

[chair of the Committee] Presiding. 

Present: Representatives Vela ́zquez, Shuler, Clarke, Ellsworth, 

Chabot, Bartlett, Akin, and Davis. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRWOMAN VELA ́ ZQUEZ 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Good morning. I call this hearing to 

order to address maintaining public lands for hunting, fishing, 

ranching and small business. 

As we approach Earth Day, it is an appropriate time to reflect 

on the vast natural resources of this country. This Nation’s public 

lands are one of the greatest national resources. They serve as 

tourist destinations for millions of Americans and generate important activity for many small businesses. Ranchers use thousands of 

acres for their cattle to graze. Hunting and fishing guides bring in 

tourism dollars, and local economies see the benefit. There is also 

energy development to harvest oil and gas resources. 

Today’s hearing will examine how Federal land policy must account for these diverse uses of these lands and the small businesses who access them. It is key that our Federal land policy is 

balanced and account for many different categories of small businesses that rely on public land. 

One of the key drivers of the western economy has been the use 

of these lands for recreational purposes. Over 87 million Americans 

participated in wildlife-related recreation in 2006, spending more 

than $122 billion, much of this spent on recreation and public 

lands, and the vast majority of firms that reap the benefits are 

small. 

Hunting and fishing outfitters depend heavily on the use of public lands. The vast majority of hunters pursue game on public 

lands. And more than 50 percent of our Nation’s most prized trout 

streams originate on them. These dollars support outfitters, gear 

manufacturers, and the hotels, restaurants, and shops that cater to 

the tourists who visit these lands. 

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Our Nation’s cattlemen have also depended on this land for raising their herds since the 1800s. These ranchers are able to lease 

these lands from the Federal Government to bring their cattle to 

market. While BLM leases 160 million acres a year for grazing purposes, there is increased concern about access and whether the 

land is usable. 

Energy development is obviously another important use for our 

public lands. Our Nation is fortunate to have large reserves of natural gas, much of which is on Federal lands. This development has 

brought economy growth in communities across the West. However, 

it must be done in a sustainable and balanced manner. 

We are all aware the energy challenges this country is facing. Increased domestic production of oil and gas should be part of a balanced national energy strategy. But it alone will not address our 

current problems. 

The Department of Interior has been invited here to discuss what 

the agency is doing to meet these diverse needs. The Federal Land 

Policy and Management Act charges BLM with the responsibility 

of managing public land by balancing a variety of uses. These uses 

include recreation, natural resource development, grazing, and 

wildlife preservation. The law also requires BLM to take into account thelong-term needs of future generations and manage without permanently impairing the quality of the environment. 

However, the General Accounting Office has reported that BLM 

has not been meeting its responsibilities for mitigating the environmental impacts. The agency has simply not been able to keep up 

with the dramatic increase in oil and gas operations on public 

lands. 

While drilling on certain public lands is necessary and appropriate to meet our energy needs, it should be managed in a way 

that will not destroy wildlife habitat and diminish the hunting, 

fishing and grazing opportunities. These stakeholders make a very 

important contribution to the small business economy of the West, 

and their concerns need to be fully considered. 

The fact that this hearing coincides with Earth Day is not a mistake. Earth Day was created to raise awareness and appreciation 

for our environment, and it is my hope today to show that there 

are ways to foster economic growth without compromising a 

healthy, sustainable environment. 

I look forward to today’s testimony and thank all the witnesses 

again for coming here to share their stories. I yield now to the 

ranking member for his opening statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MR. CHABOT 

Mr. CHABOT. I thank the Chairwoman for yielding, and I also 

thank her for holding this important hearing on the management 

of Federal lands and how best to manage those lands to benefit all 

Americans, including small business owners. 

The Bureau of Land Management in the Department of Interior 

manages about 258 million acres of land. Since the United States 

began acquiring public lands about the time of the Northwest Ordinance passage, there has been tension over how to use those lands. 

About a century ago, Federal land managers began developing a 

compromise for utilization of the Federal lands, a philosophy that 

3

can best be expressed as conservation for the greatest good, for the 

most people, for the longest period of time. This methodology has 

come to be known as multiple-use sustained-yield management. 

This system means that no single use takes priority over any 

other use on the 258 million acres under the Bureau of Land Management’s control. Proper management, and let me emphasize 

proper management, should enable the public lands to be used for 

a variety of uses, be it hunting, fishing,outdoor recreation, grazing, 

or oil drilling. 

For those who know the difficulty of maintaining a nice lawn and 

a small garden, making sure that there are no weeds, trying to prevent the neighbors’ pets from chomping on the just sprouting 

bushes, and controlling children’s play on a newly seeded grass, 

just imagine trying to do something similar on 258 million acres of 

land spread across the western United States. That is the Bureau 

of Land Management’s job, only a lot more complicated because the 

agency is required to consider a multitude of uses not just growing 

a green lawn. 

Given the immense task delegated to an agency staffed by 

human beings, I am sure that one could cross these Federal lands 

and certainly find some laxness in the Bureau of Land Management’s management, just as someone could travel in any neighborhood in the United States and find flaws in someone’s lawn. 

The issue is not whether the BLM should manage the land for 

multiple uses. Congress put to rest that issue in 1976 with the passage of the Federal Land Policy Management Act. Rather, the 

question is whether current practices of managing the land for 

multiple uses satisfies the overriding ideal of using the Federal 

lands to obtain the greatest good for the greatest number of people 

for the longest period of time. I will be interested in the witnesses’ 

perspectives on that issue. 

Finally, it is important to note that there are a large number of 

small businesses that are not represented at this hearing, the 

small business that must pay nearly $4 a gallon for gasoline. If the 

public lands are owned by all Americans, to benefit all Americans, 

we must not forget about the benefits those businesses get from environmentally sound extraction of oil from Federal lands. 

With that, I yield back, Madam Chair.

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Now it is my pleasure to welcome the Honorable Steven Allred. 

Mr. Steven Allred is the Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management in the U.S. Department of Interior. Previously 

he served as the director of the Idaho Department of Environmental Quality and Administrator of the Division of Environmental 

Quality in the State. He was also the President of the Environmental and Government Services Group of the Morrison Knudsen 

Corporation. Secretary Allred received his Bachelors of Science and 

Masters of Science degrees from the University of Idaho. 

Welcome, sir. 

4

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE C. STEPHEN ALLRED, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR LAND AND MINERALS MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR 

Mr. ALLRED. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Congressman 

Chabot, members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to 

come visit with you today. 

It seems that one of the most difficult things that challenges us, 

is to have the kind of communication that is necessary to find solutions to many of these problems. 

I believe that it is extremely important that government have 

clear laws and rules and be responsive to the needs of our citizens 

and our clients. Experience has taught me that it is results that 

count, and clear processes help us ensure the quality and transparency of those actions. Also, in order to achieve results, it is imperative that government work collaboratively with States, local 

governments, tribes, which is a responsibility that we have, individuals, and other stakeholders to resolve issues and develop productive relationships and build consensus. This management approach, as you indicated, has yielded positive results for me, not 

only in this current position, but also in my previous capacity in 

private business and as an environmental regulator. 

One only need look at the news any of the last few days to see 

the impact that energy costs are having on all sizes of businesses. 

The Energy Information Administration forecasts that that increases in crude oil will continue through the spring and beyond. 

In fact, as you are probably aware, in the last 3 days, we have had 

record prices for oil. Last night, it closed at almost $115 a barrel. 

Equally important, and perhaps more critical, natural gas closed at 

$10.53. That is very concerning to me. 

As a result of those prices, we are going to see record levels for 

gasoline this spring and this summer. Increases in these energy 

prices, as Congressman Chabot indicated, especially those associated with transportation impacts, are going to hit small businesses 

hard. Certainly ranching and other operations, which are so dependent upon oil and gas, I think are going to have a real challenge as we go forward. 

As energy demand increases, along with the other multiple uses 

of these lands, we have to focus on energy supplies. According to 

the Energy Information Administration’s latest estimates, even 

with aggressive energy efficiency standards, oil consumption will 

continue to rise, probably by 10 percent by 2030. U.S. total energy 

use, which is also a critical concern, is expected in that same time 

frame to increase about 19 percent, and that is when we see what 

is happening in China and India, where demand is expected to double. It points to increasing difficulties in obtaining the energy that 

we need in the United States at reasonable costs. 

A little bit of background. I am just going to summarize this. As 

was said, we are stewards of some 258 million acres of surface and 

some 700 million acres of Federal onshore mineral estate. These 

lands provide outdoor recreation, energy, wildlife habitat, livestock 

grazing, timber, and certainly the enjoyment and protection of 

other natural, cultural and historic resources. 

With the rapid growth that we have had in the West, from some 

20 million in 1950 to 65 million today, pressure to meet these varVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:47 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40858.TXT LEANN
5

ious uses is complex and very demanding. Traditional uses of the 

public lands, including livestock grazing, have and will continue to 

be critical to the economic viability and the cultural identity of the 

West. 

Approximately one-third of all domestic energy produced in the 

United States comes from these resources that are managed by the 

Department of the Interior. They include oil, gas, renewable energy, such as solar, wind, biomass, andgeothermal. And these will 

be challenges when we start to see the development of these on the 

scale that will be necessary with regard to other uses. 

I know that this committee is keenly interested in the success of 

small businesses. Reliable and affordable energy is key to those 

businesses, especially the smaller operations. Increases in energy 

prices, particularly those associated with transportation, are going 

to impact our businesses, both large and small. But the small businesses are going to have a much harder time dealing with those 

impacts. 

There are a couple of things I think that are important to understand. First of all, only a small portion of BLM-managed lands, 

some 5 percent, have oil and gas production, and even a smaller 

portion, less than half of one percent, are directly impacted by surface disturbance in these activities. I don’t mean to indicate that 

that is not a concern, because it is any time we have disturbances. 

Access to Federal energy resources is restricted by laws, regulations and many special relations. Results from a recent inventory 

we have done of some 279 million acres of onshore oil and gas over 

Federal lands indicates that 60 percent of those lands that contain 

oil and gas resources are currently not accessible for use of the people of the United States for that purpose; 23 percent of that is accessible only with a wide variety of restrictions which determine 

how much can be produced and during what period of time; only 

17 percent are available under what we would call standard restrictions. 

While the BLM is seeing an increase in development on Federal 

lands, access to energy development is occurring even to a greater 

extent on private and State lands. It is important to note that energy development on private and State lands is more extensive 

than on Federal lands. For example, in States with significant Federal minerals, more than two-thirds of the oil production occurs on 

State and private land. In Colorado, 77 percent of the production 

currently is on State and private lands. In Montana, it is 88 percent. In New Mexico, 64 percent of the production is on State and 

private land. 

Royalties collected by mineral leasing and fees collected for other 

public uses benefit the taxpayer. In 2009, we expect that public 

lands will generate onshore about $6.1 billion in revenues, mostly 

from energy development. I might also indicate that we expect total 

revenues, including those on and offshore, this year that we contribute through royalties will be in excess of $20 billion. Approximately 44 percent of the onshore revenues are provided directly to 

the States and counties. As you know, those support a wide range 

of needs such as roads, schools and other community and cultural 

resource needs. Wyoming’s share in 2007 was $700 million. New 

6

Mexico’s share totaled about $350 million. Colorado’s share was 

about $117 million. 

The BLM continually seeks new ways to balance competing uses 

and to minimize, integrate, and compensate for adverse effects 

from these development activities on Federal lands. Through our 

land use planning processes, implementation of best management 

practices, and other efforts and initiatives that we are involved in, 

we seek to ensure that oil and gas activity on public lands is done 

in an environmentally responsible manner consistent, to the extent 

possible, with all other uses. 

Madam Chairwoman, I would be most happy to answer questions 

that you might have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Allred may be found in the Appendix on page 40.]

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Allred. The 

number of drilling permits approved by the Bureau of Land Management more than quadrupled between 1999 and 2007. This focus 

has compromised other agency efforts. In 2005, the General Accounting Office reported that BLM was not meeting its goals to 

protect the environment on public lands because it had been overwhelmed with processing these permits. 

What has BLM changed to meet its environmental protection responsibilities as the number of permits approved continues to rise? 

Mr. ALLRED. Thank you. I don’t think there is any question that 

the response that we received with regard to new applications to 

drill wells created real constraints because of the manpower resources that we had. One of the things that Congress has done to 

help us is to provide for us resources to create pilot offices. These 

were pilots from the standpoint that they were experimental. But 

I think they will become the way that we do business. 

The issue wasn’t just with the Bureau of Land Management, but 

it also was with all of the other State and Federal agencies and 

local interests that we need to deal with to make sure that what 

we approve meets as many of their needs as is possible. When Congress provided the additional funds for us to establish these pilot 

offices, what we were able to do is to bring all of the agencies into 

one facility and to then have dedicated staff to deal with these 

issues having to do with Applications for Permits to Drill. 

That has worked very well. You will soon see a report that was 

prepared by an independent organization that Interior brought in 

to monitor our progress. As you will see when that information becomes available, it has gone a long way to solve the issues that we 

had when we first received the onslaught of so many applications. 

Those applications continue, although in the last little while, we 

have seen a bit of a, I won’t say a decrease, but certainly a 

plateauing of the number of applications that we are getting. 

One of the things that suffered from those other efforts was our 

ability to get people out to do inspections. And that is critical. 

When you issue these permits, you have to make sure that they are 

being applied correctly; 99 percent of the people that have them, 

do a good job. There is always a certain number that have to be 

inspected. 

7

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Can you talk to us about—with the increase of drilling operations on public lands across the West, it is 

critical that BLM plan for dealing with wells when they run dry. 

Can you discuss how energy operators can restore land for wildlife 

habitat, hunting, fishing, and grazing after a well has been depleted, and given the fact that most of your inspectors are processing permit requests? And then how can you explain to us that 

more than one-third of those permits are not actually being used? 

Mr. ALLRED. Madam Chairwoman, one of the results has been 

that we have been able to get more people back on the ground to 

do the inspections to make sure that we are assuring that the stipulation requirements in the permits are being met. We also, 

through the appropriations that Congress provided, have increased 

the ability to do that. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. How are you doing that? In the 2005 

GAO report, they found that you lack the resources to adequately 

monitor the restoration of the habitat, the abandoned wells. So how 

are you doing that? Since 2005, what specific efforts are you taking? 

Mr. ALLRED. Madam Chairwoman, there have been a lot of efforts. First of all, our regulations have changed substantially. 

There are best management practices that are now required to be 

followed with not only the reclamation efforts, but the drilling efforts. Through the moneys that we have been able to utilize that 

Congress has given us, we have increased our inspection and efforts considerably in the last 2 or 3 years. I think we are seeing 

a lot better compliance. We also are requiring bonding, requiring 

financial assurances that these things be done properly. 

We also have an effort that we call the Healthy Lands Initiative. 

It is not only the issue of those resources which are being impacted 

by oil and gas, but our bigger threats are from invasive species and 

fire. So our Healthy Lands Initiative, again, which Congress has 

helped provide funds for, is I think doing a lot to improve not only 

the mineral lands but also the other lands that we administer. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I will come back. Right now I am going 

to recognize the ranking member. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Allred, let me just mention, first of all, a lot of the land that 

you manage, as we have discussed, has all kinds of natural resources on it, and oil is obviously available in some areas. When 

one considers that, as early as let’s just say early 2007, say January 2007, I think the price per gallon was around $2.30; it is now 

$3.40 on average. Unfortunately, it seems to be heading up. So it 

seems pretty clear that we need to go after that oil. 

When you look over the decades, the technologies that we have 

available to us for going after that oil has improved pretty dramatically. You don’t have to do as much damage to the environment as 

maybe you did a decade or two decades or three decades ago. Sometimes I think it is a fact that gets lost in the discussion. We have 

put whole areas, like ANWR, for example, where we have 16, 18 

billion barrels of oil, off limits. 

So getting back to the technology, could you discuss briefly 

whether or not the technology has gotten better so that you can go 

8

after those resources in more of an environmentally friendly manner than you could in previous years? 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, I would be happy to. As many of you 

know, I worked for Secretary Kempthorne when he was Governor. 

He tells a story that I think illustrates what has happened with 

drilling techniques. At those times, Idaho did not have oil production, but we sat next to states that have tremendous resources, 

both in Utah and Wyoming. He likes to tell a story that if he had 

understood how oil drilling and gas drilling were going to change 

over the last few years, particularly with offset and angle drilling, 

Idaho would have been an oil State. 

There have been tremendous changes in what you see now, even 

in the last 4 or 5 years, with regard to technology as compared to 

what has happened before, which has allowed us to make huge 

changes in how we regulate these people. Now, instead of one well 

from any pad, we are seeing from 30 to 36 wells from a single pad. 

What that means is that is 36 pads less that have to be used in 

order to develop the resource. 

You have seen a transition over the last few years not only in 

the technology but also in the planning that we do, where the agency is concerned, because of that technology, is able to considerably 

lessen the impact to those areas where we do have oil and gas development, the latest being in Colorado with Rome plateau. That 

will have, we think, minimal impact as we go forward. 

Mr. CHABOT. Could you discuss the lateral that you were referring to, just in layman’s terms, what we are talking about here. 

Mr. ALLRED. Yes. In the past, for oil drilling, you had to sit directly over the hole and drill straight down or nearly straight down 

in order to get to the resource, primarily because of technologies 

that were developedoffshore. Those technologies are now being applied onshore. And what they are allowing us to do is to do offset 

drilling even a mile away or 2 miles away. I think it is quickly getting to the point where, from a single spot, you can radially drill 

from that and reach many of the resources that are available in 

these fields. 

This has tremendous implications for wildlife and environmental 

because you don’t have to be out there. It is not only the drilling 

that causes a problem. It is the transportation. It is the utilities. 

It is all the things where you have to go out and run to individual 

wells. 

Essentially, with these new methods of development, we are not 

allowing that. We are requiring them to drill from these central 

sites. All the utilities have to be underground going to that central 

site. Of course, all the well heads are in one location so all the support facilities are in that location. 

So it is, I think, a tremendous improvement in how development 

is occurring in these areas. Now there are some resources that are 

not conducive to that, but most of the major resources are. 

Mr. CHABOT. So just to make sure that it is clear what you are 

saying, if this table up here had oil in various locations, rather 

than disturbing the environment at the surface level in a whole 

bunch of places and digging a number of drilling sites, you could 

have, for example, this one site, dig here and then go under the 

9

ground in different directions, only disturbing this one area and not 

all around this place. Is that correct? 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, that is correct. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you. 

Madam Chair, I yield back my time. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Shuler. 

Mr. SHULER. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Secretary, thank you for your appearance today. 

The Federal Land Policy and Management Act charged the Bureau of Land Management with the responsibility of managing 

public lands and balancing a variety of uses. This includes recreation, natural resource development, grazing, and wildlife prevention. How does the BLM manage that based on small business 

practices, guided tours, hunting trips with guides? How do they 

manage that based on the variety of things they are charged to do? 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, our activities as we manage these 

lands are done pursuant to a resource management plan. Those 

plans are developed over fairly extended periods of time. In fact, 

some of them now have taken 7 years, that we are just finishing 

up. Those resource plans involve a tremendous amount of public 

input and are usually controversial because you are talking about 

conflicting uses. But our goal is to represent as many of those uses 

and make the smartest decisions we can with regard to that plan. 

Once the plan is then adopted, and that is a public process, with 

numerous public opportunities for input and review, then we are 

required to administer those particular lands with regard to that 

plan. Even then, there are lots of disputes and lots of conflicts that 

our managers have to make smart decisions about. Our goal is to 

make sure that, first of all, there is a lot of opportunity so we can 

balance those needs. In those cases where there are activities that 

are disturbing other activity, we attempt to mitigate, to the extent 

that we can. 

Secondly, we make sure that what we do, we do in an open and 

transparent manner so people can understand why we are doing 

what we are doing. Even then, we get a tremendous number of 

lawsuits from one issue or another. 

I might say that one of the biggest impacts we are having now 

on western lands, and this is not only West, it is elsewhere as well, 

is invasive species and fire. That, perhaps, is doing more damage 

to more uses and impacting I think small businesses as much as 

anything we do on Federal lands. 

Mr. SHULER. As an avid outdoorsman, there is nothing I enjoy 

better than wing shooting, grouse, quail. I certainly enjoy that. In 

your testimony, you made reference that most of the gas and oil 

drilling is being done on private lands and State lands. I think that 

is all the more reason why, on our Federal lands, what we have 

to do is be able to protect, to be able to have the conservations and 

to be able to protect the grouse and the quail and the other species, 

so the small businesses and ranchers can be able to use these lands 

for economic development in their communities. 

So that is not really a question, just a comment, that the more 

we can provide for the ranchers and the fishing guides and the outdoorsmen, I think it impacts a community in a very positive way 

10

because they can’t go on some of the other State lands, or certainly 

on the private lands. 

Madam Chair, I yield back. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Davis. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being with us today. 

Before coming to Congress, I was actually a small business 

owner from the mountains of east Tennessee. Beautiful natural 

area. I hope you have been there and visited the mountains. As a 

small business owner, I understand that the first thing you have 

to do is get customers in the door, and you also have to be able 

to have your fleet of trucks be able to travel, and you need energy 

to do that. 

I think we need to make sure that we have a policy in Congress 

that we allow small businesses to grow into big businesses, and if 

you put a cost on a small business like increasing energy costs—

and I understand last January, oil was about $56 a barrel. It is up 

to about $114, $115 a barrel now. And we are becoming much more 

dependent on foreign oil. 

The people that I talk to in northeast Tennessee want us to have 

access to American energy. And if we are going to do that, we need 

a policy that would allow us to use energy on Federal land, in my 

opinion. It is basically an effect in small business of supply and demand. If you have more of a product, costs will go down. If you 

limit a product, costs will go up. 

I noticed in your testimony that, right now, just pick the State 

of Colorado, that 77 percent of the production is not on Federal 

lands. So that means that about three-fourths of the production is 

coming other than Federal lands. If we had policies here that 

would actually allow for more use of American domestic produced 

energy and we had a policy that was pro-growth for small business, 

do you think we could increase that production on Federal lands 

and still have it in an economically and environmentally friendly 

way? 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, yes. What you see happening, I 

think, is that the State and private lands are easier to develop. So 

the first ones to be developed have been those lands. They don’t 

have the restrictions that we do with regard to Federal. As those 

are depleted, and they will be, you are going to see more and more 

demand to do things on Federal lands, I think. In fact, we are already seeing it. 

I come from a ranching background, and I am concerned about 

the ability of small businesses, particularly rural businesses, to 

survive with these kinds of pressures. But one of the problems I 

believe we are seeing is that part of the pressure to develop the 

western lands is because we don’t have access to some of the offshore areas. Somehow we need to find a balance so that, as we go 

after energy resources, we do it based upon the areas with the least 

impact. 

I am not foolish enough to think we have to develop all these 

areas. But when we throw all the pressure in just selected areas, 

it has an inordinate impact in those areas. So I think that if we 

had a more consistent energy policy with regard to oil and gas, we 

might—and we could start over—we might choose to have a more 

11

balanced process between onshore and offshore, and try to look at 

those places where the impact might be less than it is in some of 

the areas that are now being developed. 

Given that we don’t have that, given that we don’t have access 

to some of those areas, we are trying to make sure that we try to 

do as much as we can to meet the U.S. needs and protect as much 

of the other values as we can. That is not just fish and wildlife. 

It is a lot of cultural issues, a lot of other issues as well. For example, ranching life. We are very concerned that we are going to lose 

that. 

So we have to do what we can to perpetuate, I think, those lifestyles as well. 

Mr. DAVIS. Could you quickly tell me about your best management practices? 

Mr. ALLRED. I would be glad to. To encourage and demand stateof-the-art practices, we require that those best management practices be applied across the board. And these have become more 

comprehensive over the last few years. In fact, they continue to 

evolve to be more comprehensive. They are designed to make sure 

that we use the best practices possible, not only in oil and gas development, but in other uses as well. So I think they are. 

I think the Federal Government has a good set of those. What 

I am trying to do in talking with the Governors of the Western 

States is to make sure and encourage them to adopt the same set 

of standards. And if the State and Federal Government require 

them, they will be applied to Federal lands as well. So I think they 

go a long way to meeting some of the objectives that you and we 

have. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The time has expired. 

Ms. Clarke. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, Ranking 

Member Chabot. Madam Chair, it is great to be here today because, for most of our constituents in Brooklyn, our relationship to 

this issue comes to us by way of television sometimes. For me, Bonanza comes to mind, and motion pictures. However, we can relate 

to the work of our ranchers and small business entrepreneurs in 

regards to the provision of foods for our communities. So this is a 

very important hearing here today. 

On a serious note, I want to personally thank you, Mr. Allred, 

for testifying before us today, and I hope that, by the end of the 

hearing, I will be more informed on how your agency is meeting the 

needs of these small businesses. 

I understand that in some areas of the West, increased drilling 

has turned once spectacular landscapes into industrial-like zones. 

I would like to get a sense from you of what evidence you have 

gathered in your agency that substantiates where there has been 

severe habitat destruction. 

Mr. ALLRED. Congresswoman, one of the things that I think, 

again, we have to understand is when we talk about the total 

amount of Federal lands that are involved in oil and gas, it is a 

very small amount. That doesn’t mean it is not important. We are 

going to make darn sure, and, again, from my background as an 

environmental administrator, regulator, I am particularly concerned that what we do, we do right. But I think we also have to 

12

understand that most of the businesses involved in oil and gas are 

small businesses. They are not the big mega companies that people 

like to talk about with oil and gas. 

I also think it is important to understand that there are a lot of 

other pressures that are impacting those Federal lands. I just mentioned invasive species and fire. That has a huge impact on our 

Federal lands and on small businesses. When one of these areas 

burns out, as happened in Utah and Idaho, it has a tremendous 

impact on these rural communities and rural businesses. 

Ms. CLARKE. What is your recommendation, after knowing that 

this is something that happens annually, perhaps—it is a natural 

occurrence sometimes. It is an accident sometimes. It is carelessness on behalf of our citizenry. What best practices do you believe 

must be put in place to turn that around as quickly as possible so 

that we are all participating in the remediation and rehabilitation 

of these areas? 

Mr. ALLRED. Fire occurs naturally. In fact, most of the big fires 

were lightning caused. But the reason they burn like they do is because of fuels that normally were not there. The sage brush habitats and the western habitats are generally what we call fire regime habitats. They are used to fire. What has happened is the 

vegetation has changed so much, the fires are so much hotter, that 

they kill everything. They in effect sterilize the land. 

Fuels management is important. Dealing with the cheatgrass 

and the invasive species is particularly important. That costs a lot 

of money. Frankly, we and the State governments are not able to 

deal with that issue effectively. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Will the gentlelady yield for a second? 

Ms. CLARKE. Certainly.

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Secretary, can you tell me what responsibilities energy firms have to reclaim oil drilling sites, and is 

the Department enforcing this? 

Mr. ALLRED. Madam Chairwoman, they have an absolute responsibility to reclaim those sites. We will not release their bond or let 

them do other activities until it is done. We actually place requirements on when it has to be done. 

We are getting better at that. The government is like any other 

organization; it has problems. You have a lot of people. Any time 

you deal with lots of people, you have to manage those people. We 

are learning a lot. I think that over the last couple of years that 

I have been associated with this agency, practices have improved 

substantially. That has been one of my objectives. I think we are 

doing a good job now. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Do you have the manpower, based on 

the General Accounting Office report in 2005? 

Mr. ALLRED. I think we can do more if we had more manpower. 

You will see, I think, in the 2009 budget and at least recommendations for 2010, I think you will see some additional requests for 

this type of manpower. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you for yielding. 

Ms. CLARKE. No problem, Madam Chair. 

Just sort of on the note that the Chairwoman has struck here, 

it is my understanding that the impacts of the industrial drilling 

and oil and gas development, the impacts range from being site 

13

specific, for example, removing several acres of vegetation at an individual well pad; to those affecting a much larger area, such as 

fragmenting tens of thousands of acres of crucial winter range for 

mule deer. 

We talk about manpower, but we know what the causes are and 

what the effects are. What I am not getting from you is specifically 

how we are going to go about addressing it. What is required? 

What level of cooperation between State and Federal Government, 

who in the agency will be responsible for being proactive here? We 

are at the stage where we understand what the impacts are. We 

now want to jettison ourselves into the 21st century to be much 

more proactive on that. 

Just in closing, if we can get some response. 

Mr. ALLRED. I would be glad to. The government has to have a 

name for everything, so we have a name we call Healthy Lands. 

That involves a variety of factors. One of them is to look at not only 

how we do oil and gas but other activity as well to identify, for example, migration routes, and to make sure that, as we authorize 

activities, that we don’t fragment or interrupt those migration 

routes. Some of the newest plans that you see coming out are doing 

a much better job of that. It is a goal of ours to do that. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much. 

Chairwoman Vela ́zquez. Time has expired. 

Mr. Bartlett. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you. I am sorry I couldn’t have been here 

for your testimony. Last night, oil hit $115 a barrel in the Asian markets. The day 

before yesterday, Russia announced that they had reached their 

maximum oil production, and they probably could not increase 

above that. 

For the sake of discussion, I would like to make a counter argument that drilling in our public lands and in ANWR and offshore 

is pretty much the equivalent of giving cocaine, more cocaine, to 

the addict. If all you are doing is feeding the habit, that is exactly 

the wrong thing to do. 

The two big agencies in our world that track the production and 

consumption, which are the same—nobody is storing big amounts 

of oil—are the IEA and the EIA, the International Energy Association and the Energy Information Administration, the latter a part 

of our Department of Energy. Both of those entities indicate that, 

for about the last 3 years, production of oil worldwide has been flat. 

During those same 3 years, demand has been going up. And what 

happens when demand is up and supply is inadequate? Prices have 

gone from $50 a barrel to $115 a barrel. 

It is very probable that the world has reached its maximum capacity for producing oil, that we are now producing as much oil per 

day as we will ever produce. That happened in the United States 

in 1970. And in spite of drilling more oil wells in all the rest of the 

world put together, in spite of having the best technology in the 

world for finding oil and for enhanced oil recovery, we still today 

are producing less than half the oil that we produced in 1970, or 

importing about two-thirds of our oil. 

If we are drilling in these areas to help us break the habit, then 

I am supportive of that. But I have 10 kids and 16 grand kids and 

14

2 great grand kids. And if we could pump ANWR and our public 

lands and offshore tomorrow, what would we do the day after tomorrow? And there will be a day after tomorrow. Don’t we really 

need to be focusing on alternatives? Wouldn’t it be nice to save a 

little oil for our kids, grand kids and great grand kids, since we are 

leaving this horrendous debt, not with my vote, but we are leaving 

them a horrendous debt, wouldn’t it be nice to leave them a little 

oil? Shouldn’t we really be focusing on alternatives and how to live 

a lifestyle—we are one person in 22 in the world. We use a fourth 

of the world’s oil. There are countries in the world that use a 

fourth as much energy as we do, who live as long as we do, who 

educate their people as well as we do. We don’t need to use as 

much energy as we use to live the golden life, do we? And wouldn’t 

it be—shouldn’t a top priority be—if we are going to drill in these 

areas, and I will vote to drill in those areas when I am assured 

that all the energy we get there is going to be used for developing 

alternatives. Because we have now blown 28 years. We knew darn 

well we were going to be here today or about this time with oil over 

$100 a barrel, because M. King Hubbert was right about the 

United States. We peaked in 1970. In 1980, we knew darn well he 

was right. He predicted the world would be peaking about now. 

Where has our sanity been for the last 28 years that no responsible country in the world has taken the correct path, that is to develop alternatives so that we run down the other side of what 

Hyman Rickover called this Golden Age, that we would still have 

a high quality of life. 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, I agree with you that the solution to 

our problem is not oil and gas. However, if you look at the Energy 

Information Administration forecast, they indicate that, by 2030, 

you may only have 6 to 10 percent of the U.S. energy, total energy, 

not oil and gas, supplied by what you refer to as renewables. 

We are aggressively pushing renewable energy. In fact, you will 

see an announcement today of a number of areas that are being 

opened up for offshore renewable energy development. That is important. But I think, in any forecast that I can see or any scenario 

that I can see, if you want to maintain something similar to the 

economy that we have, particularly with regard to small businesses, oil and gas, and particularly gas, and I have a bigger concern about natural gas than I do oil and the price of what is happening there, that if we want to continue the kind of economy that 

we have, it is going to take oil and gas as part of that formula. 

It is interesting to note that, and there are actually some huge 

proposals for renewable energy, they are less acceptable when we 

go out there and try to process applications than oil and gas is. Because oil and gas is usually a fairly transient impact. You may only 

see, for example, a drilling rig for a few months or a year and then 

all that is left is a well head, generally. When you put, and I am 

a big fan of and I am pushing renewable energies, but when you 

put a wind machine up there, it is obvious for a long time. When 

you cover the surface of the desert with a solar facility, it is there 

a long time. And there are not other alternative uses when you do 

that. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The time has expired. 

Mr. Ellsworth. 

15

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Thank you, Mr. Allred. I was, being a bit tardy myself, I couldn’t 

agree with Mr. Bartlett more in his testimony, but if you had further on Mr. Davis’s comments about best practices and didn’t get 

to finish, I would give you my time to do that. If you were finished 

with your thoughts, I don’t have a question. I don’t know if you 

were done with the best practice summary or not when the time 

ran out. I was going to give you a chance to comment on that, or 

follow through. 

Mr. ALLRED. Thank you, Congressman. I would just say that we 

do have a lot of best management practices, and they cover everything, not only with oil and gas, but they cover everything from 

drilling, to bonds, to utilities, a number of things. They are improving substantially as we go forward and learn. I think that is going 

to improve and hopefully lessen the impacts and the conflicts that 

occur. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I have no further questions. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Akin. 

Mr. AKIN. Thank you, Madam Chair. I had just a wonderful 

chance over the Easter break to get out and see some of the lands 

that you all are managing and see some States that you manage, 

more than half the State, with the lands that we have absorbed as 

a government. Kind of taking a look at it from the people that live 

out in those areas, I can see why there might be some resentment 

sometimes at the fact that more than half of somebody’s State has 

been taken by the government. So the topic we are talking about 

is of a lot of interest to a lot of people. 

I appreciate Mr. Bartlett’s sermon there about the oil and everything. I am an engineer by training as well. I guess the concern 

I have is that, doesn’t it seem to you that somewhere along the line 

we are going to have to be able to convert our coal more efficiently 

into some type of fuel like a liquid fuel and also that we should be 

pushing the nuclear solution? Because both of those seem like 

there is a lot of American energy that we can use wisely, and we 

don’t have to be dependent on all kinds of other corners of the 

world that may be a little bit unstable. From your point of view, 

does that seem to be a reasonable sense? 

I mean, we drove by those windmill farms, and I think I am kind 

of a environmentalist, but I am thinking those are really eyesores. 

I would be more comfortable with some of the success we have had 

with nuclear and with coal. 

So if you would like to comment on that, sir. 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, we are going to have to have a wide 

variety of sources. In fact, I tell people that if you look at the EIA 

forecast, it is going to take every possible thing we can do if we 

want to maintain the economy that we have. 

Nuclear, while it is not my direct responsibility, I have worked 

in a lot of nuclear issues, and it will be very important to us. But 

it is probably going to be beyond 2030 before it contributes substantially. There are two other resources that we have got to learn 

how to do better with. Certainly, coal. We have tremendous coal resources, both on Federal lands and on other lands. 

The other resource we have, which we have not developed and 

which will be challenging to do so, are the oil shale resources in 

16

the Rocky Mountain States. Those are tremendous resources, and 

it will be a challenge to figure out how to do it. Those are opportunities I think we have to find solutions to help meet our needs in 

the future. 

Mr. AKIN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I now recognize Mr. Bartlett for the 

second round. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much. 

Sir, you mentioned that in your current business climate, it is 

going to be very difficult for businesses, including small businesses, 

to continue to prosper without the accessibility to fossil fuels that 

we have had; that, therefore, the right thing to do is to go out and 

aggressively drill for the little bit of fossil fuels that remain. If our 

civilization was coming to an end, that might be a wise thing to 

do. 

Sir, you cannot pump what is not there. There is increasing evidence that the world just will not have the ability to increase the 

production of oil and gas in the future. I would be very suspect, sir, 

of the prognostications of USGS and of what oil is going to be 

found. Laherrere says their projections are absolutely implausible, 

that we are going to find as much more oil as all the known reserves that exist in the world today. Even, sir, if that were true, 

it only moves peak out about a dozen years. 

Albert Einstein, when he was asked what the next great force in 

the universe was going to be, he said the greatest force in the universe was the power of compound interest. Two percent growth 

doubles in 35 years. It is four times bigger in 70 years, eight times 

bigger in 105 years, and 16 times bigger in 140 years. 

Mr. BARTLETT. We just are going to have to find a way to have 

prosperous businesses without using increasing amounts of fossil 

fuel, because, sir, the evidence is they are just not going to be 

there. Our country reached that point in oil in 1970. In spite of 

drilling more oil wells in all of the rest of the world put together, 

we still are producing only about half the oil that we produced 

then. 

Coal has been mentioned. There is probably about a hundred 

years of coal remaining, not the 250 years we have been quoting. 

The National Academy of Sciences says it hasn’t been looked at 

since the 1970s now, and they believe about a hundred years. 

Even, sir, if there were 250 years, if you increase its use only 2 percent that shrinks to 85 years. If you use some of the energy to convert it to a gas or a liquid it shrinks to 50 years. And if you share 

it with the world and there is no alternative to sharing it with the 

world, because if we use oil that we get from coal, then the oil we 

might have bought from Saudi Arabia is bought by somebody else, 

isn’t it? So from a practical world perspective we must share whatever energy we develop with the world, because if we are not using 

energy from over there someone else has access to that energy. 

You are correct, sir, there are huge amounts of potential energy 

in our oil shales, more than all the known reserves of oil in all the 

world, recoverable reserves in all the world. But, sir, there is also 

more energy in the tides or in methane hydrates, more energy in 

methane hydrates than all the fossil fuels in all the world, includVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:47 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40858.TXT LEANN
17

ing those that we have burned so far. But because the potential energy is there doesn’t mean it is in your gas tank. There is an old 

adage that says that energy and power to be effective must be concentrated. 

Shouldn’t we have started a long time ago an aggressive program 

to develop alternatives knowing that since the United States 

peaked in 1970, which is certainly you know an indication that we 

are a major part of the world, if we peaked in 1970 and the same 

person who predicted that peak predicted the world, we would be 

peaking about now, shouldn’t we have started a long time ago to 

develop alternatives rather than sitting here today using ethanol 

from corn, doubling the price of corn, increasing the price of wheat 

and soybeans and rice around the world, headlines above the fold, 

Washington, the New York Times a couple of days ago, saying that 

the leaders of the Third World countries were complaining that we 

were starving their people because our corn ethanol program has 

more than doubled the price of corn, wheat and soybeans and rice 

around the world? Shouldn’t we have started a very long time ago, 

sir, to do this? 

Mr. ALLRED. Congressman, I think it is extremely important that 

we identify and develop alternative energy sources. What you find 

though is that if we rely, which we do, on private business to accomplish these things it all has to do with the price of energy. And 

many of these things even today are very difficult to get people to 

invest money in and to receive an adequate rate of return. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Isn’t that why we have a government, sir, that is 

supposed to exert leadership? 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Can you answer with a yes or no since 

we don’t have much time left? 

Mr. ALLRED. That is a tough one to answer. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Let me just say the time has expired. 

But Mr. Bartlett, two things. This side of the aisle really enjoys 

your participation when it comes to energy policies, and I for one 

will be making a recommendation to any Democratic administration to appoint you as Department of Energy Secretary. The time 

has expired. And I want to take this opportunity again, Secretary 

Allred, to thank you for your participation. And we will continue 

to monitor BLM’s mission to make sure that steps are taken to protect small businesses that are such an important sector of our economy. 

Mr. ALLRED. Madam Chairwoman, it is a pleasure to be here and 

visit with you, and any time that you would wish to talk I am most 

willing to do so.

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The gentleman is excused, and I will 

ask the witnesses of the second panel to please come forward. Good 

morning, gentlemen. And I will introduce our first witness Mr. 

Gary Amerine. Mr. Amerine is the owner of Greys River Trophies 

located in Daniel, Wyoming. His business provides hunting and 

summer horseback trips in the Wyoming ranch. Mr. Amerine has 

been in the big game hunting and back country recreation business 

for over three decades. Gentlemen, welcome. And you have 5 minutes. That is the timer. With the green you start. The yellow is tellVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:47 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40858.TXT LEANN
18

ing you that your time is almost there to expire. And the red you 

should wrap up. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF MR. GARY AMERINE, GREYS RIVER TROPHIES, 

DANIEL, WYOMING 

Mr. AMERINE. Chairwoman Vela ́zquez, members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you. My name is 

Gary Amerine, and I own and operate Greys River Trophies with 

my wife Jennifer. Our small business is a hunting, fishing and 

horseback riding outfit in the Wyoming Range of western Wyoming. These mountains provide a livelihood and a safe environment where we have lived for many years and have raised three 

wonderful daughters. 

People from all over the world come to enjoy the basin where I 

live. They come to hunt, they come to fish, they come to just relax. 

Nearly every type of recreation is here; back country skiing, 

snowmobiling, horseback riding, backpacking, canoeing and much 

more. In recent years the production of natural gas has brought 

many new jobs to the region, and our economy has shifted suddenly 

from tourism and agriculture to extraction. Some businesses enjoy 

the bustling economy, but the rapid increase of gas production on 

public lands has also come at a price. Small tourism businesses like 

mine in and around my home town of Pinedale, Wyoming are paying the price of the rapid growth. Our business depends upon our 

great outdoors heritage, particularly abundant wildlife and fish 

populations and wide open beautiful vistas. I have got to tell you 

that all three are in decline in the rural area where I live. Like I 

said, there is a price to pay for the boom we are experiencing. 

Every year I have hunters come to my hunting camp from all 

over the country and even other parts of the world. They spend 

money in my hometown and they pay for my services. Some are 

starting to go other places rather than return for a hunt with me. 

Why? Because fewer licenses are available to nonresident hunters 

than in years past. Nonresident mule deer licenses have dropped 

from 1,400 to 800 in the past 5 years, a reflection of our declining 

deer herd which has fallen nearly 50 percent in recent years due 

in part to the ongoing impacts of energy development. 

The gas industry has also impacted a diversity of the economy 

across the Rocky Mountain region. When our local Sublette County 

Outfitters and Guides Association in Wyoming went to host the annual spring convention of the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association this past spring, there were not enough motel rooms available for everyone as gas workers had rented them all. The convention had to be moved to another community, giving that chapter 

the opportunity to reap the benefits of hosting the spring convention. This is a meeting that brings several thousand dollars to the 

host community, money that the Sublette County outfitters use for 

the benefit of the local community. A portion of this money would 

have been used for the funding of local college scholarships. 

Sublette County will not have the opportunity to host this event for 

several years as the convention rotates around the State. Sure the 

nonsustainable industry brings money to our town but tourism is 

renewable. I think we can have both industries, I think we can 

have balance. 

19

Right now the Wyoming Range Legacy Act, S. 2229, is working 

its way through the Senate. This is a bill that gives us a little bit 

of balance by setting aside 1.2 million acres of public national forest from future oil and gas leasing. This is a place where other uses 

and other diverse businesses contribute to other segments of our 

economy, in particular ranching and tourism. These are aspects of 

our economy that are sustainable and renewable. Oil and gas are 

not. 

I am not against oil and gas development. I am not a hypocrite. 

I heat my home with natural gas, I burn fossil fuels when I haul 

my horses in the mountains. But I do think there are places that 

are too special to drill. Come out and see for yourself. I will have 

a horse saddled for you. 

Wyoming is leading the way in energy production. Sublette 

County, where I live, is a big part of it. Two of the country’s largest 

gas fields, the Pinedale Anticline and the Jonah Field, are within 

a short drive of my house. The impacts to wildlife in both these 

areas from intense energy development have been dramatic. Researchers have found mule deer responded to development immediately showing avoidance and a change in habitats which has ultimately led to the decline in the mule deer populations by 46 percent. 

We Wyoming people are a practical lot. We know that sometimes 

it is tough to live here, far away from shopping malls and interstates. But we also love our wildlife and our wild country. We know 

that there is a place for balance. Right now we feel like that scale 

is tipping very much in favor of the gas industry over the traditional ranching and tourism economy. 

Over the past decade, the Federal Government has leased nearly 

27 million acres for oil and gas development, resulting in an unprecedented loss of fish and wildlife habitat in the Rocky Mountain 

States. Nearly 20 percent of Wyoming, accounting for more than 13 

million acres, is leased for oil and gas development. We would like 

to keep some of our valuable public land for our kids, for their kids, 

for your kids for balance. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity. I am happy to answer any 

questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Amerine may be found in the Appendix on page 46.]

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you Mr. Amerine. Our next witness is Mr. Bill Dvorak—

Mr. DVORAK. Dvorak. Close. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. —owns Bill Dvorak’s Kayak and Rafting Expeditions in Nathrop, Colorado. His business was founded in 

1969 and provides whitewater rafting, kayaking and fly fishing 

trips in 11 rivers across the West. Mr. Dvorak’s business has been 

featured in National Geographic and on ESPN. Welcome, sir. 

STATEMENT OF MR. BILL DVORAK, DVORAK EXPEDITIONS, 

NATHROP, COLORADO 

Mr. DVORAK. Thank you, Chairwoman Vela ́zquez, members of 

the Committee. Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you. I am 

20

Bill Dvorak, and I was raised on a small ranch about 20 miles 

north of Sheridan, Wyoming near the Montana border. 

I have been outfitting and guiding hunting, fishing and river 

trips in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, New Mexico and Texas for the 

last 30 years. While outfitting and guiding these trips I cover tens 

of thousands of miles each year and have developed an intimate 

understanding of the West and its special places. In the last few 

years I have witnessed unprecedented industrial grade energy development throughout the intermountain West. 

You will see from a map of the rivers I run that I outfit right 

in the heart of oil and gas development. I am willing to bet that 

everyone you will be hearing from today agrees that oil and gas 

drilling is a legitimate and important use of public land. I personally support responsible energy development wholeheartedly. The 

problem is that over the last 6 years or so the oil and gas industry 

has become the dominant tenant of the public lands where subsurface fossil fuels are found. In fact, the BLM’s current policy is 

so out of balance that there is rising concern, a cause of concern 

among State and local elected officials, game and fish departments, 

hunters, anglers, ranchers, farmers and other residents of the real 

West. But the lands we have used for a generation is changing and 

it is not for the better. 

With 26 million acres of public land leased to oil and gas companies already and 126,000 new wells planned for the next 15 years, 

it is no surprise that people are concerned. There is no doubt in 

anyone’s mind that energy development will take place. The question is will it be done in a way that protects wildlife habitat and 

the outdoor heritage that is part of the distinctive western way of 

life. 

It is important to remember that wildlife, rivers, streams and entire landscapes are the true economic foundation of this region, and 

they all depend on conserving key habitat on public lands. If we 

don’t figure out how to drill for oil and gas with a smaller industrial footnote on our public lands the other uses of these lands will 

continue to suffer. 

The latest U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reports found that fishing contributes about $582 million every year to the Colorado economy. Hunting contributes another $449 billion. And wildlife watching alone contributes $1.4 billion to the Colorado economy in 2006. 

That is over $2.5 billion in one year. Clearly hunting and fishing 

are important parts of western economy, and protecting pristine 

habitat on public lands plays a critical role in maintaining the ability for individuals, outfitters and small businesses to partake in 

these activities and make a living. 

Many of the small mom and pop businesses in rural Colorado 

make about 70 to 80 percent of their yearly income in the 2 to 3 

months of hunting season. There are recently 5 spills of drilling 

mud and drilling related chemicals in Garden Gulch on the western 

flanks of the Roan Plateau, only one of which was reported by industry. In one spill alone more than a million gallons of mud and 

chemically tainted water found its way into the gulch, which eventually feeds into the Colorado River, a river that I use to make a 

living. These spills were particularly difficult for me to hear about 

because I fly passengers on my Desolation and Gray Canyon trip 

21

on a small plane from Grand Junction, Colorado. All they see on 

the flight until they get to the landing zone on the mesa is oil and 

gas wells and the accompanying roads, pipelines and infrastructure 

that go with them. I would love to be able to tell my clients that 

development isn’t going to impact their back country experiences, 

but I simply cannot say that with conviction, given the pace of development right now and the fact that it is often done without regard to fish, wildlife and water resources, and there is little or no 

regulation. 

I am proud to say that I am currently involved in an effort to 

develop real solutions to the challenges we face in the West and 

push for those changes in Congress and the incoming administration. Sportsmen for Responsible Energy Development, a collaborative campaign that was launched yesterday involving the National Wildlife Federation, Trout Unlimited and the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and hunting and fishing groups 

and businesses around the West, is a historic effort to bring balance to our public lands energy policy. Together we have developed 

the Sportsmen’s Bill of Rights on Energy Development, a comprehensive list of 10 rights that all sportsmen should enjoy when 

it comes to public lands. We are working to have these incorporated 

into legislation and into new administrative rules, for our public 

lands support multiple uses and don’t focus only on energy extraction. 

With the Bill of Rights in place small business owners like me 

will be able to continue to maintain the lifestyle we love and sustain ourselves and our families while continuing to operate on public lands. We should all be able to tell our children and grandchildren we did what we could during our lives to leave them something, to give them the same quality of life we have had, to know 

that they will take their children and grandchildren to the same 

places our parents and grandparents took us to learn how to hunt, 

fish, hike and develop an appreciation of the world around us. 

I am here before you today and out on the front lines tomorrow 

making sure I can say these things to my family in my old age and 

to do so with a clear conscience. Thank you for your time. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Dvorak may be found in the Appendix on page 50.]

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Dvorak. Our next witness is Mr. Chris Velasquez. Mr. Velasquez is a fourth generation 

rancher from Blanco, New Mexico. Mr. Velasquez has been a 

rancher all his life. In 1995, Mr. Velasquez and his wife were 

awarded the Rangeland Management Award for New Mexico, nominated by the Farmington Bureau of Land Management Office. 

Welcome, sir. 

STATEMENT OF MR. CHRIS VELASQUEZ, RANCHER, BLANCO, 

NEW MEXICO 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. Good morning, Chairwoman Vela ́zquez and 

members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me to address 

this Committee. My name is Chris Velasquez and I have been 

ranching all my life. My great-grandpa ranched in the same area 

22

where I currently ranch. In 1995, my wife and I were awarded the 

Ranchland Management Award for New Mexico. 

I am not opposed for those companies to drill on BLM land if 

they do it in a responsible manner. In 2006, because the increased 

number of wells, pipelines and roads on 22,000 of our allotment 

made it uneconomical to run summer cattle there, I felt I had to 

sell it. This allotment was the most impacted of the BLM field office of the allotments. Roads, pipelines, wellpads, sandstone quarries, disposal and transmission sites all are the results of reducing 

availability to natural forage for the cattle and wildlife. The industry is reluctant to follow reasonable business practice to remedy 

these business losses. Not paying on a reasonable amount of damage money in a reasonable amount of time, I haven’t been paid 

damages yet for a calf injured by a vehicle in March of 2007 or for 

cattle that escaped on the same time due to lack of required 

cattleguard maintenance. 

This is a compressor station within 2 miles of my home, and the 

level of the noise is so high it reaches inside my home. This map 

is from around 2004 from Google Earth. It shows the area of our 

ranch. Each white dot is a wellpad or an associated oil and gas location. A spiderweb of roads and pipelines fracture the area and 

make ranching less and less profitable. 

These are two more aerial photos of the ranch. In 2005 this BP 

unlined pit was full of oil by-products and oilfield trash. The fencing around this pit did not meet BLM standards. My cattle, as well 

as wildlife, had easy access to this contamination. 

BP constructed a landfarm for remediating contaminated soil 

within 100 feet slightly uphill of this livestock watering pond. This 

was done on my private property without my permission. I found 

this pond one day with a thick oily film of water. My cattle were 

drinking from it and I took three test samples from it. One sample 

showed positive petroleum content and three showed traces of petroleum content. BP made no effort to respond to this problem. 

On March 8, 2008, I observed this cow drinking from this tank. 

This tank was dry when I found it, but had 19 inches of liquid in 

it recently, which was evidenced from the oily fluid level mark on 

the inside of the tank. My whole herd was in this area and also 

had access to this tank. Chickenwire is not a sufficient barrier. 

This tank should have had either a complete expanded metal cover 

or approved BLM fence around it to protect access to livestock and 

wildlife. 

I have complained twice to BP and BLM about oil around the 

compressor and the holding tanks without screening at this site. 

This is just another example of the trip to my ranching business 

I face on a daily basis from the oil and industry. This is the same 

cow that was drinking from the last of the fluids in this tank on 

March 8th. Notice the hair loss around the muzzle and around the 

ears, which on both sides of her nose are falling off, and then her 

back ears, and then alongside her neck she had white spots that 

were falling—she was losing her hair. 

My pregnant cows have also aborted their calves after drinking 

contaminated liquid at well sites. I had a licensed veterinarian 

take blood samples of this specific cow and three more from this 

herd on April 4th. By phone on Thursday, April 10th, he reported 

23

to me that three out of the four cows tested positive with toxic 

damage to the livers and kidneys. This means that I will have at 

least three cows out of this herd and probably more that will either 

die or be infertile. And this is just one of the many times industrial 

has failed to properly fence dangerous areas injuring my cows. Will 

the industry pay these damages? Their track record shows that it 

will take me time and effort to extract any damages from BP for 

this breach of BLM regulations and best practice standards. 

This is just another picture of a calf losing hair, body hair. This 

calf was also tested positive with oil by-products. 

The road conditions are a major problem in the area on my allotment. This picture shows a result of flat-blading. Flat-blading creates a road surface that does not allow water to drain to the side 

of the road properly. The ruts in this road are over 2 feet deep. 

Note the pitchfork with a yellow flag forcing traffic to go around 

the main travel road destroying additional natural surface areas. 

This is another example of flat-blading. Note the 12-inch high pressure gas line, transmission line that has been excavated by erosion 

and runoff. Also note the pitting on the rust on the outer surface. 

If heavy equipment or an accidental vehicle contact would have hit 

this pipeline it could have ruptured it causing a fiery explosion and 

death or injury to anyone close by. No safety barriers were in place 

here to notify travelers of the hazard. 

Our public land is a national treasure for all to enjoy. As a 

rancher I am committed to its protection. And reasonable oil and 

gas production has destroyed many parts of our public land. These 

damages will persist for lifetimes. It is time to enforce the law and 

require proper land stewardship from oil and gas. As a rancher I 

want my business protected from these impacts of oil and gas industry. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Velasquez may be found in the 

Appendix on page 55.]

Chairwoman Vela ́zquez. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Scott Moyer, our next witness, is the owner of Down Valley 

Septic and Drain in Rifle, Colorado. Down Valley Septic is a small 

business that has over 33 employees. Mr. Moyer and his wife have 

operated the company for over 11 years, and the company offers 

septic pumping, portable toilets, tank rentals, roll off containers 

and potable water services. Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF MR. SCOTT MOYER, DOWN VALLEY SEPTIC 

AND DRAIN, RIFLE, COLORADO 

Mr. MOYER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, members of the 

Committee. Thank you for having me. I would like to admit my 

statement into the record if I might and just talk to you this morning. My wife and I—

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Without objection. 

Mr. MOYER. Thank you. My wife and I moved to Garfield County 

in Rifle, Colorado about 12 years ago. Our income at that stage of 

our lives was extremely low. We were surviving on probably 

$20,000 a year between us to support ourselves, which was mostly 

the case in our county. The county had a lot of employees in it that 

24

were at medium income jobs, minimum wage, getting by, things of 

that nature. 

Today as I sit in our community in our restaurants and in town, 

I see people living a lot better than they did 10 years ago, having 

more things available to them, nicer houses, I see higher education, 

getting a lot of funding from oil and gas and tax bases in our community. My friends’ children and the people in our town can afford 

higher education and are going to school, spending money, improving our community. We see a lot of funding going to the Department of Wildlife, developing programs to help with the mitigation 

between the wildlife and the drilling, and it seems to be working. 

Today I can honestly say in our community there is more people 

working, a better quality of life than we had a decade ago. 

Our community was mainly a tourist-based economy, which was 

great for a lot of people 2 to 3 months out of the year, and then 

everybody left. As soon as the winter came our population would 

go down, our earnings would go down and our businesses would 

shut. Today we enjoy year-round businesses, we enjoy seeing businesses thrive and more people owning their own business. I have 

seen an increase of 100 percent of the people that used to be my 

neighbors working at McDonald’s, working as the janitors in our 

schools, that now have enough income and opportunity that they 

can truly start their own business and enjoy the benefits of having 

a good economy in our area. 

We do not have a lot of foreclosures on our homes in Garfield 

County in western Colorado where I understand the rest of the 

country is in crisis. We do not have a lot of foreclosures on our 

street. People are working, they are spending their money. Our 

community is improving and we actually can talk about investments. 

Like Mr. Bartlett spoke of, investing in renewable fuels, renewable energies, it takes money. And the common man cannot afford 

to invest in renewable energy, energy fuels, things of that nature, 

for the next generation unless we have the money to do so. And too 

many people are trying to survive in the rest of the country on 

minimum wage. I don’t know anybody that can invest money at 

$5.75 an hour or $6 an hour. They can barely afford health care. 

They can’t afford their housing. And now with the energy development it allows my community to truly do those things. 

We see a lot of community benefited programs that are now popping up that are backed by energy companies. They pay an abundance of taxes where my taxes have not risen in Garfield County. 

The money goes to schools, the money goes to our roads, it improves our infrastructure and truly benefits everybody in the community, not just a select few. 

Ten years ago when we came to the valley I started my company, 

and I actually had to work two jobs, not just my primary job pumping septic tanks and doing our normal business. I had to pump gas 

at night just to make the bills meet. But that is what we did because that is how my community got by; we worked. And if we 

have to work day and night that is what we do to pay our bills and 

to make things good in our community. Now that we have jobs and 

people coming from all over the company to fill those jobs, like I 

say, it allows us to work a lot less and then truly enjoy our money, 

25

enjoy our hunting and our fishing and the recreational sports that 

we do have available to us. And I see all of those businesses flourishing. 

And that is about all I have to say. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Moyer may be found in the Appendix on page 65.]

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Moyer. Mr. Dvorak, I 

would like to ask my first question to you. BLM is tasked with 

managing land for multiple uses to best meet the needs of the 

American people without permanently impairing the quality of the 

environment. Do you believe that BLM is meeting that goal, and 

how do they take into account the needs of small firms like yours 

which depend heavily on recreational use of the land? 

Mr. DVORAK. Well, it is real easy for BLM to talk the talk, but 

when you see them out on the field they are not really walking that 

talk, because there is almost nobody in the field actually monitoring what goes on in gas and oil extraction. Most of the people 

that still work for the BLM, all they are doing is issuing permits. 

There is a real frustration. My brother-in-law was actually the 

district manager of the BLM in Casper, Wyoming. And he talks 

about how a lot of people who have resisted what is going on in 

the current administration have been forced into retirement, how 

a lot of biologists and people who are concerned about the ecology 

have actually been forced into other jobs, forced into areas that 

they no longer can have any sort of say on how the BLM is managing the land. 

And so no, in answer to your question I think the BLM is doing 

a horrendous job of managing public lands for multiple use. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. Mr. Amerine and Mr. 

Dvorak, I will invite you to comment on this question. More than 

87 million Americans spent over $122 billion on wildlife-associated 

recreation in 2006. How do those billions of dollars help small firms 

create jobs out West and do your clients support other local businesses and stimulate local economies? Mr. Amerine. 

Mr. AMERINE. Madam Chairwoman, our local economy is out of 

whack right now. The energy development going on around us has 

allowed the high school kids, the ranch kids to go out and drive a 

water truck for $20 to $25 an hour. It is very hard for the small 

businesses in the surrounding area to pay those kind of wages. 

Granted, the local hardware store is booming because of the influx 

of oil and gas workers. But the poor guy is working himself to 

death because he can’t get any help to run the counter for him or 

the back room. 

The same thing is a happening on the ranches. To get a kid to 

buck a bale of hay right now is almost impossible. They just simply 

won’t do it. The ranchers cannot afford to pay the wages that are 

going on around it. The same thing with my outfitting business. 

Three guides I have working full time for me love what they are 

doing, and that is the only reason they are doing it. If it was a financial gain for them, they would be in another place. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Dvorak. 

26

Mr. DVORAK. Again, I happen to live in an area that is not directly affected by oil and gas. In my community the major economic 

driver is the river business. We generate something like $390 some 

million a year in the State of Colorado. The Arkansas River where 

I am based on is the most popular whitewater river in the world. 

My particular company is actually sort of the largest customer of 

the local Safeway store. We have about 300 guides that live in the 

valley, and all of the economy that is generated through their 

wages and things like that goes directly back into that community. 

Most of us are year-round residents there, they own companies 

there. So our kids go to school there. You know, we buy our insurance, we do all the things that a small business would do for that 

community. If that answers your question. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you very much. Mr. Velasquez, 

you explained to us the contamination that has taken place in the 

land that you lease. Can you talk to me, who are you reaching out 

to asking for help; BLM? 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. Madam Chairwoman, yes, we used to have 

meetings with BLM and the oil companies on a daily basis because 

this problem has been going on for 20 years-plus on my operation. 

And we thought we could solve it by having meetings with the oil 

companies, bringing them in on board. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. This is BP? 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. BP, ConocoPhillips, Williams Field, every company that is available there in the four corners. We bring them into 

those meetings and spend 4 or 5 hours with them. We are the only 

ones not getting paid to go to those meetings. BLM was getting 

paid and the staff was getting paid, the oil companies. We were sitting there until we found out that we didn’t have no voting right 

when they made decisions on that board so we quit. And I had 

brought it up to the—we used to have field tours with oil companies and the BLM until I got plumb fed up. I don’t do that anymore. They know what they need to do. The regulations are in 

place by BLM. They are not enforced. And just on that instance, 

on the cows drinking that contamination of that tank, that tank in 

2005, and I got pictures of it, didn’t have a screen on it or nothing 

to protect the wildlife or my cattle. So I called BLM, they went 

ahead and put that chickenwire on it and now my cows get into 

the same tank and they are turning out positive with contamination to the liver. This has been an ongoing problem constantly. And 

the BLM manager in the Farmington office told me at one time he 

didn’t want to see my pictures again or anything that I had to report on BLM lands. 

So I deal with the BLM Director from the State of New Mexico, 

Linda Rundell, but it is a ongoing problem for me. And BLM has 

not helped me protect my interest on public lands at all, because 

I still got the same problems that I had 20 years ago with 

cattleguards contamination going on still today. It is frustrating. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. It is. And I hope that you are reaching 

out to your Member of Congress to get him to intervene. 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. Yes. I have been working with them trying to 

get them to help me out. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Moyer, you mentioned that there 

are many examples of oil and natural gas companies being good 

27

stewards of the land. Can you give us some examples of energy 

firms working to minimize their impact on the environment? 

Mr. MOYER. Yes, ma’am. As a matter of fact 2 weeks ago Williams Energy and EnCana Energy made large donations to the Department of Wildlife to help start monitoring programs above and 

beyond what the BLM and the local and State government have 

implemented to them. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. But if they are causing some type of 

contamination, are they being responsive in cleaning up and restoring? 

Mr. MOYER. In all honesty, Madam Chairwoman, I have not seen 

the type of factors that they are speaking of. In Garfield County 

I live next door to one of the largest cattle ranches which has drilling wells on it, and I have not seen any type of the behavior that 

he spoke of with these particular oil companies. They do a good job, 

as far as I can see, with the cattleguards and the fencing. They 

have, on the contractors like myself that work for them, they have 

rules and regulations that they monitor them and they are very serious that they impose and make sure that we are following. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. So you work for the energy company? 

Mr. MOYER. I work for my local citizens first and then I work for 

my oil company second. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. But you are being employed by the oil 

company? 

Mr. MOYER. I am employed by everybody in my county, not just 

the oil and gas people. My priorities and my loyalties are with 

what is right and wrong, not with who signs a bigger paycheck. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Mr. Chabot. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to apologize to 

the panel because I had to go to another committee hearing and 

that is why I didn’t hear all your testimonies here in person. And 

since the gentleman from Missouri was kind enough to fill in during that time and was here to hear all the testimonies, I am going 

to defer to him for the questioning at this time. And I will wrap 

up at the end. So I will yield my time to Mr. Akin. 

Mr. AKIN. Thank you very much. I have got to scoot to another 

hearing, too, in just a minute. But I think what I am coming away 

with from the hearing, and that this is a balancing act and there 

has to be team work, people have to work together. And what I am 

hearing is that at least in some areas BLM is just not doing the 

job that they should be in making sure that we are keeping up certain standards. One of the things that was interesting from the 

aerial photos is the fairly large footprint at these different facilities. Are those footprints that we are seeing in the pictures just recently drilled or does the foliage have a chance to grow back after 

a period of time? And are there standards about how much land 

you have to disturb in order to—is this all natural gas, by the way, 

or is this oil? 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. This is natural gas in our area. 

Mr. AKIN. Mostly natural gas? 

Mr. MOYER. Mostly natural gas. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Yes. 

28

Mr. AKIN. And the natural gas is going to last for some period 

of time, right, and then they just cap things off and can go, is that 

right? How long do these wells last? And is there some sort of requirement to keep the footprint as small as possible, because it 

looked like they had roads in large areas, pretty big areas that 

were being used just for one to poke a hole in the ground? 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. That is what they do in our area, just use one 

patch just for one well. Very seldom do they use directional drilling. And that impact has impacted the wildlife and my operation. 

Because every time they take a road and a pad out of production 

on a forage or a pipeline they don’t reseed or reclaim it correctly. 

And that land that we live on is real fragile. There is a lot of sandstone that erodes real quick. So if they don’t build that road up to 

BLM standards you got a big ditch in the middle of the road or the 

water just travels down the middle of the road and never gets back 

to the forage like it should be. 

Mr. AKIN. Yes, Mr. Moyer. 

Mr. MOYER. The vast majority of drilling in western Colorado is 

now done directional. They run I have seen anywhere from 9 to 15 

wells going on one pad and all handled directional. 

Mr. AKIN. So there is a newer approach to doing it? 

Mr. MOYER. Not necessarily newer. It is a lot more expensive. 

Mr. AKIN. To do that type of drilling, to do the angular? 

Mr. MOYER. Correct. 

Mr. AMERINE. Congressman, if I may comment on this. Two of 

the largest gas fields in the continental United States are within 

a short drive of my house, the Jonah and the Anticline, producing 

huge amounts of gas at this time. Unfortunately, it is sitting at 

7,000 feet. That area does not recover from impacts. I can take you 

into areas that were wildcat drilled back in the 1970s and 1980s, 

and they are highly defined, they just don’t recover. And along with 

that is our pronghorn and mule deer. You can replant these areas 

with grass. Deer and antelope will starve on grass. They need the 

bitter brush, the sagebrush. It takes generations for that to come 

back. 

Mr. AKIN. Madam Chair, I was just thinking that just sitting in 

this room gets a little tiresome. Maybe we need to take the Committee on a couple of river trips if you could arrange it. Thank you. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I think that there will be bipartisan 

support. 

Mr. DVORAK. If I can just comment, what you guys need to do 

is to do a field meeting out there and look at the impacts of what 

is going on. I mean, we can sit here and talk. And again, anybody 

can talk the talk. But for you to actually see it and be on the field 

and deal with the folks who have had—and we talk about leasing 

on private lands. Well, you know, if your private land is adjacent 

to somebody else who has a lease on theirs and you are downwind 

of that particular oil and gas well and 24/7 you are listening to that 

pounding and you are smelling those fumes, tremendous numbers 

of people are just getting very, very ill, and they are having all 

sorts of endocrine damage. There are a lot of other things beside 

small businesses and wildlife habitat issues here. There is tremendous public health issues here. 

29

In Colorado last year we actually passed a wildlife habitat protection bill, and it went through both of our legislative houses 

unanimously, because people have recognized that we have serious 

problems here. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The time has expired. Ms. Clarke. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree, we need a field 

exploration of this issue. One of the things that, and I think it gets 

to the heart of something that Mr. Bartlett said in his comments, 

is that you know there are short-term gains and then there are 

long-term legacies. You know, we know that right now, Mr. Moyer, 

your community is flourishing as a result of what is taking place 

there. But we know that industry will come to an end at some 

point in time. Maybe not in your lifetime, but perhaps in your children and your grandchildren’s time. And so we have to be visionary 

in custodianship of the industries that are currently providing a 

service, and a very valuable service to your community and its 

growth. 

But when you talk about the natural habitat that provides for 

ranches work, which is enduring, the exploration and the types of 

outfitting work that those two gentlemen on the end of the table 

with you are talking about, which is enduring, we have got to find 

that balance. And I think that it will be the leadership of communities like yours in talking about what—now that you have gotten 

to this level of technological and industrial growth—what is going 

to be the next phase. And how do we encourage that in a way in 

which, and how do we advocate for it and how do we push government to respond in a way in which it makes its transition? Because 

truly you are at the end of a gain, and that is something that we 

all recognize in the United States of America. But are we going to 

kill off everything else around it so that we never recover, we never 

recapture, we never renew ourselves as an environment for that 

gain? And I think that is essentially the question that is being 

asked here today. And we do have to be forward thinking about 

what happens to a community that has been able to really stand 

up as a result of these industries that have come in. We have to 

look very closely at how this is regulated, because there is no doubt 

that there is dereliction of duty and recklessness taking place as 

well. And to turn a blind eye to that could be perilous to us in the 

end. 

So Madam Chair, I don’t really have a question because I think, 

you know, enough has been said and enough has been put out 

there from each of you as witnesses. And I can appreciate it because you brought a balance to what happens. But we ultimately 

want to get to the win-win solutions here, and that is what government is about. If we are being derelict of duty, we are being reckless in allowing other small businesses to trample other small businesses when there is enough room for everyone, then we are not 

doing our duty here. 

So I want to thank all of you gentlemen for again shedding light 

and bringing this forth and being very honest about how this activity is impacting on your businesses. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Will the gentlelady yield? 

Ms. CLARKE. Yes, Madam Chair. 

30

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. It is not small businesses against small 

businesses. BP is not a small business. 

Ms. CLARKE. You are absolutely right. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I just wanted to make sure. Thank you. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Any comments? 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. I would like to make another comment. In every 

wellpad that you see there, there is either a compressor going on 

or a pump jack. Even sometimes both are running 7 days a week 

on the same pad. So the noise level is unbelievable you get out 

there. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The time has expired. 

Mr. Bartlett. 

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much. I was interested in the obvious conflicting interest expressed in the testimony of Mr. 

Velasquez and the testimony of Mr. Moyer. Mr. Moyer’s testimony 

about the increased prosperity that came to his community when 

they started the drilling is just an expression of the incredible quality of energy that we get from these fossil fuels. I think the most 

insightful speech given in the last century was a speech given by 

the author by Nuclear Submarine Hyman Rickover, to a group of 

physicians in St. Paul, Minnesota on the 15th day of May 51 years 

ago. And he noted that this incredible quality and quantity of energy, one barrel of oil, has the energy equivalent of 12 people working all year. This has enabled us to develop a truly golden age, 

which is what Hyman Rickover referred to it as. 

By the way, you can find the speech if you do a Google search 

for Rickover and energy speech. And I think you will find, as I have 

found, that it is probably the most interesting speech that you have 

ever read. 

Well, this is the crux of the problem. It is what got us to where 

we are today. Because our society has benefited now for 150 years 

and benefited so spectacularly from a quality and quantity of energies in these fossil fuels we have pursued these fuels with the same 

intensity that the dope addict pursues his drug, and with wanton 

abandonment, with no more responsibility than the kids who found 

the cookie jar or the hog who found the feed door open, we have 

just been pigging out. The behavior is as if oil and gas were going 

to be forever. Clearly they cannot be forever. Clearly they are finite. 

Our country reached its maximum oil production in 1970, and in 

spite of drilling more oil wells than all the rest of the world put 

together, today we produce about half the oil. By the way, that is 

in spite of finding oil in Alaska and in the Gulf of Mexico which 

wasn’t included in King Hubbert’s prediction. Today we produce 

about half the oil that we did in 1970. 

This is very interesting testimony, Madam Chairwoman, because 

it indicates to us the incredible challenge that we face. How are we 

going to continue the quality of lifestyle that we have when we are 

going to be dependent on renewables that will not have the quantity and quality of energy that these fossil fuels have? 

America is the most creative innovative society in the world. This 

is a huge challenge. I am excited about this. The world has never 

faced a problem like this—not my quote. This a quote from a major 

31

study paid for by your government and ignored by your government 

about peak oil, which said that the world has never faced a problem like this. 

Madam Speaker, I think we are up to this with proper leadership. We are the most creative, innovative society in the world. 

What we need is a program that has a total commitment of World 

War II. In about 6 weeks I reach my 82nd birthday, so I remember 

that war very well. And we need the technology focus of putting a 

man on the Moon. Wow, how that invigorated America. Everybody 

was a part of that first step on the Moon. And we need the intensity of the Manhattan Project. And I think with that that more and 

more communities will be thriving, Mr. Moyer, like your community is thriving with the energy from fossil fuels because of the activities that are going to be necessary to move from fossil fuels to 

true renewables. 

This has been very enlightening testimony. Thank you all very 

much. It is very obviously the conflicting interests that we have 

here. On the one hand our society demands, as a previous witness 

indicated, our small businesses, he thought, could not maintain 

their current vitality without unlimited access to gas and oil. There 

will not be unlimited access until we face a huge challenge in 

transitioning to these nonfossil fuels, these true renewables. And I 

look forward to very exciting times when America has more to do 

than just watch movies and drink too much. I think there are more 

exciting things to do. 

Madam Chairwoman, thank you very much for this hearing. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I will yield on a second and third round 

to the gentleman. 

Mr. BARTLETT. I have got to go. My phone was just ringing. I 

have an appointment. I thank you all very much. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Ellsworth. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you gentlemen for being here. I am not quite sure why Mr. Moyer didn’t get 

the memo on the dress code on the boots and hat, but we will figure that one out. 

Mr. MOYER. My boots are always rubber. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. You need to invest in a pair of those. But 

thanks for holding this important hearing. I would just like to associate my comments again with Mr. Bartlett and Ms. Clarke that, 

Mr. Moyer, I can appreciate when you see the influx of the jobs and 

the economic development that comes in with that. But then we 

have to look. And I don’t know the life of these wells, if they are 

15 years, 20 years. But I just have to guess that the company is 

not going to stick around and continue that investment when the 

gas is gone. And so we have to find that mix and leaving that land 

as pristine as possible so that we can protect those lands. And I 

have been blessed to be able to come to all of your States and enjoy 

those exact things that you do for a living, and I appreciate that 

and want to go back. 

Mr. Dvorak, and that is close, you reacted when we were talking 

about the cost of the directional drilling versus the one hole, and 

you had a little reaction when we talked about being more expensive, and I don’t know if you would like to elaborate on that. It was 

just kind of a nod and a smile. But are you seeing, and maybe Mr. 

32

Moyer, tell me again the percentage they are doing directional, and 

then Mr. Dvorak, what you are seeing in that of the directional 

drilling we are doing? If you two could help me on that. 

Mr. MOYER. Well, I am not in a position to know exactly what 

the cost of our directional, of directional drilling. But I do know 

from what I hear from my company and all the different companies 

that I deal with it is a lot more expensive. But they do opt for the 

more expensive drilling to keep their footprint to a minimum and 

work from one patch just as long as they can. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. And did you have a percentage earlier of how 

many you think are done directionally? 

Mr. MOYER. I think 80 percent of our wells are now done directional. I may be wrong. 

Mr. DVORAK. I think in Garfield County where he refers to there 

are only eight rigs that concurrently develop directionally. So there 

is a finite number that they can actually do. So there is still a lot 

of straight down hole drilling because there is more of those kind 

of drill rigs available. 

I think in the long run a lot of energy companies are finding that 

directional drilling is actually more economical, because they actually have one road in, they can put a pipeline in, a pipeline out, 

they don’t have to have the pits that Chris is talking about where 

you have the toxic waste in the pits that either could overflow or 

animals can get into. So I think in the long run they are going to 

find that it is more economically to actually directionally drill. It 

is just that they have a limited number of those types of rigs out 

there right now. And there is more in production so it is going to 

take a little bit of catch-up time. So there still is a lot of straight 

down hole drilling. 

And I guess just to your comment earlier and Ms. Clarke’s comment, I come from Sheridan, Wyoming. I have seen four boom and 

bust cycles in the course of my lifetime, primarily coal based. I was 

based in Grand Junction, Colorado in 1982 on Black Sunday when 

Exxon pulled out of the Colony Oil sale and watched that economy 

totally deteriorate. 2,200 jobs were lost overnight. It took that western slope of Colorado 10 years to recover from that. And they recovered by relying on their natural resources, on their lands that you 

could recreate on. Wyoming, where I am from, in Sheridan, always 

has gone back to being a ranching community at the each of those 

bust cycles. So again, it is a land that sort of sustains us. And it 

is the sustainability of that land that in the long run is what we 

need to protect. 

And again, nobody is against gas and oil exploration. All it needs 

is the balance that you are talking about, sir, that we can go in 

there and extract the resources from the Earth and do so in a way 

that the other things can co-exist with that. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. And just as a—and thank you all very much. 

Madam Chair, as a final observation, in my brief time in this 

House I know that the Federal Government creates these programs, BLM, for a reason. And I don’t know what we would look 

like if we didn’t have—you know, when the Federal Government 

steps in to make that balance and protect people’s rights. But 

again, another Federal agency that we create, and yet we are getting bad reports on, and when we call the leaders of the agencies 

33

and they say, well, I either just got here in the last 9 months, that 

happened before my watch, or we are looking into that. And I have 

heard that in not just the Small Business Committee, but Armed 

Services Committee and Agriculture Committee. And I just keep 

looking at us and saying if it is the administration—not the administration, if it is the bureau’s problem, then shame on them, and 

if it is us not doing our job, then shame on us. And it is pervasive 

up here when we say I am looking into that or we are getting bad 

report cards on our agencies. And I yield back. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. The time has expired. Mr. Chabot. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I wasn’t here for 

all the testimony, and I understand there were some really superb 

illustrations and photographs and that sort of thing as well. My 

comments briefly, and then a question. A lot of the questions that 

I had have already been asked by others. But in my observation 

it will be the Bureau of Land Management obviously should use 

every effort to make sure that the proper balance is being met between protecting the environments of small businesses, such as the 

folks that are here today are able to make a living and to be able 

to utilize the land and the natural resources we have and the wildlife appropriately, and at the same time that we are able to go after 

natural gas and oil, the energy to run this country. Now, oil can 

be used, and in general of course in this country it is used to run 

motor vehicles, which is the principal transportation that most people utilize in this country nowadays, at least under the current 

technology that we have. It can also be used in power plants as 

coal can be and natural gas and others. About 2 decades ago was 

the last time we actually utilized one source of power in this country that other countries utilize, and that is nuclear. France, for example, the last figure that I believe I saw was about 75 percent of 

the power generation over there is nuclear. We haven’t built a nuclear power plant in 20 years here. We have some out there that 

are still in operation, and for the most part very safely being operated. But we haven’t built one in 20 years. And I would be interested to know, knowing what we do now, and knowing that our resources, especially in the area of oil, both in this country and the 

world, are being depleted. 

Do you think that in the future that should be an alternative 

that ought to be considered to power this country so we don’t have 

to be so reliant upon oil? And I see you nodding, so I will begin 

with you, sir. 

Mr. AMERINE. Congressman, I am a firm believer that we have 

to start looking for other energy sources. Overall, nuclear has been 

fairly safe. The problems we have had haven’t been in the United 

States, to speak of. I mean, there were a couple isolated incidents, 

but not really any real problem. 

We are going to run out of fossil fuels. It is inevitable, the pace 

we are going right now, and I look around at what kind of impacts 

that development is going to leave. What is going to be in the wake 

of all this development throughout the Western States, an area 

that does not recover fast from impacts on the landscape. 

So, yes, I am a firm believer in any type of alternative energy, 

whether it be solar, wind or nuclear. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you. 

34

Mr. DVORAK. If I can comment on that, I have a slightly difference perspective because, in my area, while we don’t have oil 

and gas near where I live, we do have uranium. And there is also 

uranium on several of the rivers that I operate on. One of the rivers, the Dolores, was actually where the uranium came from that 

the bombs that were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima came 

from. There are tremendous uranium resources there. 

You have the same kind of problems because the current way of 

developing uranium is to actually drill and then impregnate the 

ground with a solution and then to bring the slurry back out, that 

same mineral that creates the uranium. You have the same kind 

of problems that you have with oil and gas development, in that 

to do that, they have to fracture the soil. When they do that, they 

run the risk that those fractures, instead of going out horizontally, 

may sometimes go up vertically and then contaminate the ground 

water that people utilize for either their drinking water or their 

stock. 

So we have issues with uranium mining as well because it is not 

the old sort of drill a hole in the ground and pull out the yellow 

cake that we once utilized. Now it is mostly a drilling process. 

Mr. CHABOT. Would it be safe to say, really, in essence, that no 

source of power or energy in the future or now is risk-free? 

Mr. DVORAK. I would say that it is not risk-free. I am saying it 

is going to require the same balance. We need to do it in a responsible way and make sure that the resource is looked after. 

Mr. CHABOT. Even wind, for example, now you have people that 

will talk about the number of birds that end up being killed as a 

result of that. Some people don’t like to have them where they can 

see them, like up in, I believe, Massachusetts, off the coast up 

there. There are some folks that have objected to that. 

Mr. DVORAK. Again, I think if you can work with your divisions 

of wildlife and figure out where the main nesting areas and the 

areas for these birds to be and avoid those areas, and, again, that 

is what we have asked for in the oil and gas areas, is that these 

folks consult with the divisions of wildlife and look for where the 

main winter ranges are, where the migration routes are, where the 

calving and lambing areas are, and sort of try to avoid those areas 

or stay out of those areas in the most critical times. That makes 

a tremendous impact on how the wildlife sustains itself. 

Mr. CHABOT. Back to the nuclear, Mr. Velasquez and Mr. Moyer, 

if you had a comment. 

Mr. MOYER. If you think about Three Mile Island, you think 

about Chernobyl, there is truly no safe form of fuel or energy available to us. There is always going to be cause and effect and a risk 

on anything that powers our cars or heats our homes. Chopping 

down trees for firewood, we are going to run out of our forests. 

Like you said, it is a point where we need to find the right balance with nature and man and then go from there. I haven’t heard 

anybody mention hydrogen yet. That is where I would like to see 

it go. 

Mr. CHABOT. The President in one of his State of the Union addresses talked about the development of a hydrogen vehicle at 

some point, too, which I think all of us would like to see. But at 

35

this point, there are a number of technology problems that still 

have to be dealt with. 

Mr. VELASQUEZ. On my part, we get a lot of sun and wind in 

New Mexico, so we could use a lot of that for alternative energy 

on our part. 

Mr. CHABOT. In some areas of the country, obviously, solar is 

more realistic than others, and wind as well. I agree with you completely, and I think that is the point, that at this point in time, we 

have to look at what is realistic and reasonable and what the cost 

is and the safety issues that are involved and hopefully make the 

right decisions. That is one of the purposes of this hearing, to make 

sure that we are considering that. 

I think this panel has been very helpful in giving us useful information. Thank you for that. 

I yield back. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Moyer. 

Mr. MOYER. I was just going to say, we still have one restaurant 

in town that still has horse parking. You can tie your horse up to 

his restaurant any time. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. I guess that is the right balance. 

Again, I want to thank all of you. I have found, coming from New 

York City, and to have the opportunity here to listen to all of you 

has been a great, great hearing. We have never conducted a hearing of this nature in dealing with public land and the responsibility 

of the Bureau to make sure that they strike the right balance, and 

that in the process, small businesses are not impacted, and looking 

at ways where we can exercise oversight to make sure that the Bureau is taking their responsibility and their mission seriously. 

One of the members of this committee is Raul Grijalva from Arizona, and he chairs the subcommittee that has jurisdiction over 

these type of issues. Of course, I will be talking to him the same 

way that we are going to be talking with the Department of Interior in making sure that they get the message that this committee 

will intend to exercise oversight over the responsibility that they 

have in making sure that we protect the environment, the land, 

public land, and the source of business for the small business people that are involved in different activities related to public land 

and the environment. 

Thank you very much. 

I ask unanimous consent that members will have 5 days to submit a statement and supporting materials for the record. Without 

objection, so ordered. This hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:47 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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