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1 U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T F O R T H E

 S O U T H E R N D I S T R I C T O F F L O R I D A

2 M I A M I D I V I S I O N

3

 C i v i l A c t i o n N o . 1 : 2 0 - C I V - 2 2 9 4 5 - S c o l a

4 C i v i l A c t i o n N o . 1 : 2 0 - C I V - 2 1 5 4 7 - S c o l a

5 D E C U R T I S , L L C ,

6 P l a i n t i f f ,

7 v s .

8 C A R N I V A L C O R P O R A T I O N ,

9 D e f e n d a n t .

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /

1 0

C A R N I V A L C O R P O R A T I O N ,

1 1

 P l a i n t i f f ,

1 2 v s .

1 3 D E C U R T I S C O R P O R A T I O N , a n d

D E C U R T I S , L L C ,

1 4

 D e f e n d a n t s .

1 5 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /

1 6

 R E M O T E V I D E O T A P E D D E P O S I T I O N O F

1 7

 W I L L I A M E I S E N S T A D T , P H . D .

1 8

1 9 T h u r s d a y , D e c e m b e r 1 6 , 2 0 2 1

 3 : 0 6 p . m . - 6 : 3 4 p . m . ( E S T )

2 0

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2 2 S t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y R e p o r t e d B y :

 K i m b e r l y F o n t a l v o , R P R , C L R

2 3 R e a l t i m e S y s t e m s A d m i n i s t r a t o r

2 4

2 5

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S :

2

O n b e h a l f o f D e C u r t i s , L L C :

3

 Q U I N N E M A N U E L U R Q U H A R T & S U L L I V A N , L L P

4 8 6 5 S . F i g u e r o a S t . , 1 0 t h F l o o r

 L o s A n g e l e s , C A 9 0 0 1 7 1 0 0 1 7

5 B Y : J U S T I N C . G R I F F I N , E S Q .

 p s c h m i d t @ q u i n n e m a n u e l . c o m * *

6 B Y : J A R E D K N E I T E L , E S Q .

 j k n e i t e l @ q u i n n e m a n u e l . c o m

7

8

9 O n b e h a l f o f C a r n i v a l C r u i s e s :

1 0

 O R R I C K , H E R R I N G T O N & S U T C L I F F E , L L P

1 1 7 7 7 S o u t h F i g u e r o a , S u i t e 3 2 0 0

 L o s A n g e l o s , C A 9 0 0 1 7

1 2 B Y : D A V I D M E D I N A , E S Q .

 d m e d i n a @ o r r i c k . c o m

1 3

1 4

1 5

A L S O P R E S E N T : J o h n M a c d o n e l l , V i d e o g r a p h e r

1 6

1 7

1 8

1 9

2 0

2 1

2 2

2 3

2 4

2 5

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1 I N D E X

2 Examination Page

3

Direct By Mr. Schmidt 5

4

Instruction to not answer question 11

5

Instruction to not answer question 26

6

Instruction to not answer question 26

7

Certificate of Oath 115

8 Certificate of Reporter 116

Read and Sign Letter to Witness 117

9 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 118

10 EXHIBITS

11

12 No. Page

13 Exhibit 1 Declaration of Dr. 8

 William R. Eisenstadt in

14 Support of Carnival's

 Opposition to DeCurtis'

15 Motion for Summary

 Judgment

16

Exhibit 2 Curriculum Vitae of 16

17 William Richard

 Eisenstadt

18

Exhibit 3 Document entitled "Design 106

19 of Compact Adaptive RF

 Matching Circuits using

20 Square Split-Ring

 Resonators," by Hyunjin

21 Park et al.

22

23

24

25

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1 VIDEOGRAPHER: And we are on the record.

2 It's 3:06 p.m. Eastern Time on December 16,

3 2021.

4 This is the deposition of Dr. William

5 Eisenstadt. We're here in the matter of

6 DeCurtis versus Carnival Corporation.

7 I'm John MacDonnell, the videographer,

8 with Veritext.

9 Before the reporter swears the witness,

10 would counsel please identify themselves,

11 beginning with Mr. Schmidt, please.

12 MR. SCHMIDT: Good afternoon. Patrick

13 Schmidt from Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan

14 on behalf of DeCurtis.

15 MR. MEDINA: Good afternoon. David Medina

16 from Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe on behalf

17 of Carnival Corporation.

18 THE COURT REPORTER: Doctor, could I have

19 you raise your right hand, please, so I can

20 swear you in.

21 Do you swear or affirm the testimony you

22 are about to give will be the truth, the whole

23 truth, and nothing but the truth?

24 THE WITNESS: I do.

25 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you, Doctor.

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1 I'm ready.

2 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you.

3 DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Eisenstadt. Can you

6 please state and spell your name for the record.

7 A. My name is William Eisenstadt,

8 W-I-L-L-I-A-M, E-I-S-E-N-S-T-A-D-T.

9 Q. Would you please identify the location

10 where you are testifying from today?

11 A. I'm testifying from my home in

12 Gainesville, Florida, and the location is 4315

13 Northwest 75th Street, Gainesville, Florida 32606.

14 Q. Is there anyone currently in the room with

15 you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Other than the computer that you are using

18 to access this Zoom session, do you have any other

19 electronic devices in the room with you?

20 A. I have another computer and I have little

21 processors. They are all off.

22 Q. Okay. I would just ask that you keep any

23 other electronic devices off for the duration of the

24 deposition, of course other than the computer you

25 are using to access this session.

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1 On the computer that you are using to

2 access this session, do you have any other windows,

3 browsers, or electronic documents open?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. Do you have any hard-copy documents in

6 front of you?

7 A. I have a hard-copy document of my

8 declaration and of the patent '541.

9 Q. Are either of those hard-copy documents

10 annotated in either -- in any way?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Dr. Eisenstadt, you understand that

13 now that you've been sworn as a witness in this

14 case, you are not allowed to discuss the substance

15 of your testimony with anyone until the deposition

16 closes?

17 A. I do understand that.

18 Q. Okay. And I would just ask that if at any

19 time anybody tries to contact you, either through

20 cell phone or chat interface, you identify that for

21 me on the record.

22 Is that fair?

23 A. That's fair.

24 Q. You understand that you have been offered

25 as an expert witness in this case; is that correct?

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1 A. I'm not familiar with the term "offered."

2 Q. Okay. Well, you understand that you have

3 rendered expert opinions that have been submitted

4 with Carnival's opposition to DeCurtis' Motion for

5 Summary Judgment, correct?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. When were you first engaged by Carnival as

8 an expert witness in this case?

9 A. I looked at my record this morning and my

10 first engagement was on November 12.

11 Q. Do you remember who first contacted you?

12 A. I think I was contacted by David Medina

13 and another attorney or two.

14 Q. Okay. And you submitted your declaration

15 in this case on November 19; is that right?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Are you able to approximate how many hours

18 you spent forming your expert opinions between

19 November 12 and November 19?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What is that approximation?

22 A. I would say about ten hours.

23 Q. Did you feel that the ten hours that you

24 invested in this matter was sufficient time for you

25 to render the expert opinions you have offered in

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1 this case?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you provided sufficient information

4 in order to form the opinions you have offered in

5 this case?

6 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

7 And you can answer that "yes" or "no," but

8 don't get into the substance of communications

9 with counsel.

10 A. Yes.

11 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

12 Q. Is there any information or data that you

13 would have liked to see but was not available to you

14 in the course of forming your expert opinions?

15 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

16 A. No.

17 MR. SCHMIDT: I'm going to mark at this

18 time the first exhibit to the deposition,

19 Exhibit 1.

20 (Thereupon, marked as Exhibit 1.)

21 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

22 Q. Doctor, if you go to your Egnyte browser

23 and refresh, let me know when you can see Exhibit 1.

24 A. Unfortunately, I took you too seriously

25 when you said there's no other browsers on and I

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1 mistakenly turned off my Egnyte browser. But I will

2 get it back on.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Okay. I see Exhibit 1.

5 Q. Can you confirm for me that Exhibit 1 is

6 the expert declaration that you've submitted in this

7 case in opposition to DeCurtis' Motion for Summary

8 Judgment?

9 A. Yes, I confirm that it is.

10 Q. Can you scroll to the last page of

11 Exhibit 1 and confirm for me that that's your

12 signature on the last page?

13 A. Yes, I confirm that that's my signature.

14 Q. And you executed this document, Exhibit 1,

15 on November 19, 2021, correct?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Does Exhibit 1 contain a full and complete

18 articulation of all the expert opinions that you've

19 formed in this case to date?

20 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Hold on.

21 Objection. Vague.

22 And, again, to the extent this calls for

23 discussions of the substance of your

24 communications with counsel, you are not to

25 answer that. But you can answer that "yes" or

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1 "no" if it does not require you to disclose

2 such information.

3 A. Can you ask me the question again?

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. Sure.

6 Does Exhibit 1 contain a full and complete

7 articulation of all the expert opinions that you've

8 formed in this case?

9 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

10 A. Okay. I'm going to ask for a little

11 clarification.

12 For expert opinions, do you mean expert

13 opinions that are fully formed that I'm ready to

14 defend today or for future expert opinions?

15 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

16 Q. Let's start with fully formed and ready to

17 defend today.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. So with regards to expert opinions

20 that are fully formed and you are ready to defend

21 today, Exhibit 1 contains a full and complete

22 articulation of such opinions, correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Are there other expert opinions that you

25 intend to offer in this case that you are not

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1 prepared to defend here today?

2 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

3 And I'm going to instruct you not to

4 answer that because it involves communications

5 with counsel and it's privileged.

6 MR. SCHMIDT: You won't even let him

7 answer "yes" or "no"?

8 MR. MEDINA: Yeah, that's correct.

9 A. I will not answer that.

10 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

11 Q. Okay. With regards to the expert opinions

12 that you are prepared to defend here today, does

13 Exhibit 1 contain all the facts and data and

14 analyses necessary to support those opinions?

15 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

16 A. Well, my expert opinions are based on

17 facts and data mentioned in the report, but also

18 based on my experience, and the report can't contain

19 all my experience.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Okay. Setting aside your personal

22 experience in the field, are there any other facts,

23 data, or analyses that you would rely on to support

24 your opinions that aren't described in your expert

25 declaration, Exhibit 1?

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1 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

2 A. Well, I would rely on what is commonly out

3 there in the field in terms of, you know, public

4 domain information on my expert opinion.

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Did you study any specific publications or

7 patents that are out there in the field in the

8 course of forming your expert opinions that are --

9 MR. MEDINA: Objection.

10 Sorry. Objection. Vague.

11 A. Well, in the course of my work, I am an

12 IoT designer and I experience a lot of interaction.

13 I'm also a design teacher, with spec

14 sheets and bits and pieces and parts in doing --

15 building devices and communication systems. So

16 that's an incidental interaction with a ton of

17 technical information that I can't ignore.

18 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

19 Q. Sure.

20 What I'm trying to identify is are you

21 able to point to anything specific that you might

22 try to use to support your expert opinions at some

23 time in the future that's not described or mentioned

24 in your expert declaration?

25 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague and calls

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1 for speculation.

2 A. Well, in this particular matter -- and I

3 don't know what I'm going to do in future matters; I

4 only do what I'm asked to do -- but in this

5 particular matter, I would -- I would have to point

6 to my general knowledge about literature of antennas

7 and what's out there, what you can buy.

8 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

9 Q. But you are not able to identify for me

10 here today any specific document or any specific

11 piece of data or information that you might use to

12 try to support your expert opinions in Exhibit 1 at

13 some later time, correct?

14 A. Well, I wouldn't say that. I would

15 probably look at documents, you know, that describe

16 chip antennas, and there's another type of antenna

17 called a PIFA, or planar inverted-F antenna, that I

18 would probably use.

19 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't cite

20 these additional documents that you are mentioning

21 in Exhibit 1?

22 A. Well, they're common knowledge in the

23 field and the chip antennas are actually talked

24 about in the NXP document.

25 The PIFA antennas I kind of remembered

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1 after the report was completed.

2 Q. Okay. But before you completed Exhibit 1,

3 you didn't have the PIFA antennas in mind; is that

4 right?

5 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Misstates the

6 witness's testimony.

7 A. Before the report was completed, I did not

8 recall the PIFA antennas or I -- if I did recall

9 them, I did not investigate them enough to make an

10 expert opinion about them.

11 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

12 Q. Okay. And other than the NXP Guide that

13 you mentioned, is there a reason why you didn't cite

14 any additional documents regarding chip antennas?

15 A. Well, the NXP Guide is an exemplary guide

16 for chip antennas, but there are probably 30 other

17 guides out there for chip antennas when you look.

18 So I figured that was a place to start the

19 discussion.

20 MR. MEDINA: And, Doctor, give me time to

21 state my objection for the record.

22 I would like to put an "objection, vague"

23 on that one.

24 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

25 Q. Is there anything in any of those other

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1 guides that you think might be noncumulative of

2 what's already in the NXP Guide, which you already

3 discuss in Exhibit 1?

4 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

5 A. What do you mean, "noncumulative"?

6 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

7 Q. Is there any teaching or data or

8 information in those other guides that you think is

9 relevant to your expert opinions that's not also in

10 the NXP Guide?

11 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague and

12 compound.

13 A. Well, I think each guide has its own

14 layout for their antenna, and so I think that that's

15 a teaching that shows that there is no one way to

16 use chip antennas and no one way to incorporate them

17 into a system, but they each have to be looked at

18 case by case, the layout being the circuit board

19 that you incorporate the chip antenna into.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Can you identify for me any specific

22 portion of those other guides that you might rely on

23 to try to support your opinions at some time in the

24 future?

25 A. Not off the top of my head.

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1 Q. Okay.

2 MR. SCHMIDT: Let's mark your CV as the

3 next exhibit.

4 (Thereupon, marked as Exhibit 2.)

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Please refresh your browser and let me

7 know if you can see Exhibit 2.

8 A. Okay. I refreshed and I'm not seeing

9 anything. Okay. Now it just came up. I have

10 Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 1, Tab 2. That's probably it.

11 Okay. I see my CV.

12 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

13 Q. Yeah, I don't know why it's marking as

14 Exhibit 1 twice. This should be Exhibit 2.

15 MR. MEDINA: On my screen it also says

16 "Exhibit 1, Tab 2."

17 MR. SCHMIDT: Right. Well, we'll deal

18 with it afterwards. We'll get the numbering

19 right.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Dr. Eisenstadt, for purposes of

22 identification, do you recognize Exhibit 2 or what's

23 marked as Exhibit 1, your CV?

24 A. I recognize Exhibit 1, Tab 2, yes.

25 Q. Okay. And that's your CV?

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1 A. And that is my CV as of the time, yeah, of

2 about a month ago, yes.

3 Q. And that document is mentioned as

4 Exhibit A to your declaration which we looked at

5 previously, correct?

6 A. I guess so, correct.

7 Q. Is your CV that's in front of you at this

8 deposition accurate and complete, to your knowledge?

9 A. To my knowledge, it's accurate and

10 complete.

11 Q. If you scroll down to the bottom of the

12 first page, there's a heading for "Legal

13 Experience."

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

16 Q. Is this a complete description of all the

17 matters -- legal matters in which you've been

18 engaged as an expert witness?

19 A. It is a complete description of matters

20 where I had expert reports where I worked more than

21 30 hours. There were one or two matters which were

22 settled so fast that it didn't -- it wasn't worth

23 mentioning.

24 Q. Understood.

25 Are you able to identify how many times

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1 you've been deposed as an expert witness in prior

2 matters?

3 A. I would say seven to nine times. I would

4 have to count through this to find that out.

5 Q. Have you ever testified at trial?

6 A. My very first case was a civil case and I

7 testified at trial. I've also testified in a

8 Markman hearing in trial.

9 Q. What was the case that you testified at

10 for trial?

11 A. That's at the bottom of the legal list

12 there. I think it's -- oh, golly.

13 Q. I see it, the --

14 A. D.A.B. Contractors [sic] versus Florida

15 Department of Transportation, FDOT.

16 Q. Okay. And I take it that wasn't a patent

17 case?

18 A. No. That was a civil case where D.A.B.

19 Contractors sued Florida Department of

20 Transportation for a contract issue.

21 Q. You mentioned you testified at a Markman

22 hearing in the past.

23 Can you tell me what --

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Can you tell me what case that was for?

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1 A. That was for Technology Research

2 Corporation versus Tower Manufacturing. That's Case

3 Number 11.

4 Q. Is that the only case where you testified

5 live at a Markman hearing?

6 A. As I recall, it is.

7 Q. Were you representing the plaintiff or the

8 defendant in that case?

9 A. I was representing the plaintiff.

10 Q. In all of your expert witness work, have

11 you ever had the opportunity to render opinions on

12 the issue of enablement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you ever been engaged, as an expert

15 witness or otherwise, by the plaintiff in this case,

16 Carnival?

17 A. Say that question again, please.

18 Q. Have you ever been engaged in the past,

19 whether as an expert witness or otherwise, by

20 Carnival?

21 A. No, I have not.

22 Q. Have you ever been engaged in the past by

23 the Orrick law firm?

24 A. No, I have not.

25 Q. Thank you. You can set your CV aside.

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1 I would like to go back to the

2 declaration, the first Exhibit 1, at this time.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. And just for the record, I'm going to

5 refer to the declaration as Exhibit 1. I'm going to

6 refer to the CV as Exhibit 2, even though it's

7 currently marked as Exhibit 1, and we'll sort that

8 out later.

9 Does that make sense?

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. Okay. We're looking at Exhibit 1, the

12 declaration, and I want to direct you to

13 paragraph 9. Let me know when you're there.

14 A. I'm at paragraph 9.

15 Q. Paragraph 9 has a list of materials that

16 you stated that you reviewed and considered in

17 preparing your declaration.

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Other than the items listed in

21 paragraph 9, are there any other documents or

22 information sources that you reviewed and considered

23 in forming your expert opinions?

24 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

25 A. Well, these are the documents I considered

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1 in my expert opinion. I may have a quote or two

2 from another document in this document, but these

3 are the primary documents I considered.

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. Are you able to identify any documents you

6 considered for purposes of forming your expert

7 opinions in this declaration that aren't in this

8 bulleted list on paragraph 9?

9 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

10 A. I am looking to identify them.

11 In paragraph 40, it says, "I further

12 reviewed the deposition testimony cited by DeCurtis

13 of David Worrall," who is a Disney employee. So I

14 think that has to be included in the documents I

15 reviewed for this declaration.

16 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

17 Q. Understood.

18 Any others other than Mr. Worrall?

19 A. Yeah, in paragraph 39, I say a "Transcript

20 of Deposition of Sander Lam . . . (testifying that

21 Carnival's actual design successfully," da da da da

22 do. So I had to review the transcript of deposition

23 of Sander Lam.

24 Q. Understood.

25 Any others other than those two deposition

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1 transcripts and the items in paragraph 9?

2 A. No, those are them, except they may not be

3 explicitly included.

4 Q. What do you mean when you say "may not be

5 explicitly included"?

6 A. I don't see them in the list in -- those

7 are the ones that I don't see in the list on

8 paragraph 9.

9 Q. Okay. But other than the two deposition

10 transcripts and the list on paragraph 9, you can't

11 identify any other documents that you reviewed in

12 forming the opinions in Exhibit 1, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. So you did not review the Complaint in

15 this action in forming your expert opinions; is that

16 correct?

17 A. No, I don't remember reviewing the

18 Complaint.

19 Q. Did you review the infringement

20 contentions submitted by Carnival in this case?

21 A. No, I don't remember reviewing the

22 infringement contention.

23 Q. Did you review the invalidity contention

24 submitted by DeCurtis in this case?

25 A. No, I don't remember reviewing the

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1 invalidity contention.

2 Q. Did you have any conversations with any of

3 the inventors on the patent?

4 A. No, I had absolutely no conversations with

5 the inventors on the patent.

6 Q. Would you think that speaking with one of

7 the inventors that are at Carnival could have shed

8 some light on the issues you opine on in your

9 declaration?

10 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for

11 speculation.

12 A. I don't know.

13 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

14 Q. Did you ask to speak with any of the

15 inventors at Carnival about the issues in your

16 declaration?

17 A. No, I did not ask to speak to the

18 inventors at Carnival.

19 Q. Did you review any sworn statements by any

20 of the inventors on the patent?

21 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

22 A. Well, I don't recall all the names of the

23 inventors, so I don't know if the RF designer is one

24 of the inventors on the patent that I reviewed parts

25 of his deposition. That is the one I just

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1 mentioned.

2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

3 Q. Mr. Lam, correct?

4 A. Mr. Lam.

5 Q. But other than Mr. Lam, you didn't review

6 any other sworn statements of anybody else who might

7 have been an inventor on the patent, correct?

8 A. I reviewed no sworn statements by other

9 inventors on the patent.

10 Q. Did you look at any documents in this case

11 that had been produced by DeCurtis?

12 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

13 A. Well, I looked at the DeCurtis Motion for

14 Summary Judgment and exhibits therein, so that would

15 cover the documents that I had looked at. And if

16 that includes some of the other documents that you

17 mentioned before, then I had access to those.

18 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

19 Q. Understood.

20 But other than the Motion for Summary

21 Judgment and the exhibits to the Motion for Summary

22 Judgment, you didn't look at any other documents

23 that DeCurtis produced in this case, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Did you look at any wearable devices that

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1 DeCurtis is alleged to have provided to others?

2 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

3 A. I have not had the opportunity to examine

4 any wearable devices that DeCurtis produced.

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Okay. And I take it examining a wearable

7 device that DeCurtis produced wasn't important to

8 the issues that you opined on in your declaration,

9 correct?

10 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Misstates his

11 testimony.

12 A. Well, I don't know what "important" means

13 here.

14 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

15 Q. Well, did you think that examining a

16 DeCurtis-provided device was necessary for you to

17 form the opinions in Exhibit 1?

18 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

19 A. Well, there are many opinions in

20 Exhibit 1, so I don't know how to answer that in

21 bulk.

22 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

23 Q. Did you ask to analyze or examine a

24 DeCurtis-provided device at any time prior to

25 November 19?

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1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Why not?

3 MR. MEDINA: Hold on. Hold on.

4 So to the extent this calls for you to

5 discuss or comment on the substance of

6 communication with counsel, I'm going to

7 instruct you not to answer.

8 If you can answer that without, you know,

9 disclosing the substance or communication, you

10 can do so. But be mindful of that.

11 A. (No audible response.)

12 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

13 Q. Doctor, is there a reason why you didn't

14 ask to examine a DeCurtis-provided device prior to

15 submitting your declaration on November 19?

16 MR. MEDINA: Same objection, same

17 instruction.

18 A. I think that goes directly to my

19 conversation with counsel and my interaction with

20 counsel, and I can't answer that question.

21 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

22 Q. Okay. Turn to paragraph 15 of your

23 declaration, please. I want to discuss now your

24 understanding of the legal principles.

25 A. Okay.

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1 Q. In paragraph 15, you state, "I understand

2 that the requirement of enablement enforces the

3 essential 'quid pro quo of the patent bargain' by

4 requiring that the patent's specification teach a

5 person of ordinary skill in the art how to practice

6 the full scope of the claimed invention without

7 undue experimentation."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. You understand that the enabling

11 disclosure that is required is a disclosure that has

12 to be present in the patent specification itself,

13 correct?

14 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for, you

15 know, legal conclusion.

16 THE COURT REPORTER: Doctor, you seem to

17 be muted.

18 A. My understanding is based -- is stated

19 with my words on the page here, because I'm not a

20 lawyer and this comes from my learning about the

21 subject.

22 And so I'm going to have to go with my

23 wording, which is, you know, I understand that the

24 requirement of enablement enforces the essential

25 "quid pro quo of the patent bargain" by requiring

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1 the patent's specification to teach a person of

2 ordinary skill in the art how to practice the full

3 scope of the claimed invention without undue

4 experimentation. That's what I understand.

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Right.

7 And you understand that the enabling

8 disclosure is a disclosure in the patent

9 specification, correct?

10 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

11 A. No, I understand by requiring the patent

12 specification to teach a person of ordinary skill in

13 the art how to practice the full scope of the

14 claimed invention -- that's what I understand --

15 without undue experimentation.

16 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

17 Q. Okay. What role does information outside

18 the patent specification play, in your

19 understanding, in determining whether the invention

20 has been enabled?

21 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

22 conclusion.

23 A. Well, this is not my area of expertise, so

24 I -- my -- I'm really not -- I'm not competent to

25 define what the role inside and out of a patent is.

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1 I just have to go by those words that I put down

2 there, that the patent specification has to teach a

3 person of ordinary skill in the art how to practice

4 the full scope of the claimed invention without

5 undue experimentation.

6 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

7 Q. Let me clarify I'm not asking you to

8 render a legal opinion or to characterize the law;

9 I'm asking for your understanding of the law because

10 it's relevant to your analysis.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. So in performing your analysis in this

13 case, what weight did you put on information outside

14 the patent but available to one skilled in the art

15 as it pertains to enablement?

16 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

17 A. Well, again, it's very hard to assign a

18 weight to what I did, but I would say that I put

19 this patent specification and claims as the primary

20 consideration of a person -- to teach a person of

21 ordinary skill in the art.

22 And then I have to include practical

23 factors, you know, such as safety and things like

24 that to -- that relate to the actual use case in the

25 patent specification.

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. What do you mean when you say you had to

3 include practical factors like safety and use case?

4 A. Well, there are practical design factors

5 that influence enablement, and you can't make

6 something that is unsafe, right, and you don't ask

7 somebody to do that in a particular application.

8 But this is really vague. I need to

9 actually go into detail. It's a case-by-case thing.

10 Q. Let's focus on the analysis you did in

11 this case.

12 What practical design factors did you take

13 into account in analyzing enablement?

14 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

15 A. Well, I mean, in this particular case for

16 the '514 patent, Claim 11 -- we're going to talk

17 about that -- I have to consider as an enablement

18 discussion what I would think a POSITA would

19 consider in an enablement discussion, factors like

20 waterproofness, can you make it waterproof? -- you

21 know, we're on a ship -- things like that. Other

22 factors, too.

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. Is waterproofing a requirement of Claim 11

25 of the '514 patent?

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1 A. No, it is not, but it may be part of the

2 consideration. There is a lot of factors you

3 consider in enablement, including the patent

4 specification and other factors.

5 Q. What role did waterproofing play in your

6 enablement analysis?

7 A. In this particular one --

8 MR. MEDINA: Hold on.

9 A. -- very minor.

10 MR. MEDINA: Objection.

11 A. -- very minor. But you were asking what

12 other factors could influence it.

13 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

14 Q. I was asking what factors did influence.

15 So what I'm interested in knowing is:

16 What are the practical use cases that you considered

17 as factors in rendering your enablement opinions in

18 this case?

19 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

20 A. Okay. So are we talking about the '514

21 patent, Claim 11?

22 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

23 Q. We're talking about the analysis you did

24 in this case, sir. You submitted a declaration --

25 A. And I --

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1 Q. -- and you mentioned to me that you

2 weighed some practical use case factors, and I would

3 like to know what those are.

4 A. Okay. So I need to define it down,

5 because if you look at my declaration, it's about

6 the -- it's about Patent '514, Claim 11, in my

7 enablement discussion.

8 So, okay, is that where we're going?

9 Q. Your declaration addresses '514, Claim

10 11 --

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. -- and you mention that in forming your

13 opinions regarding enablement, you applied some

14 practical use case factors.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. And I would like you to identify what

17 those factors are.

18 A. Okay. I have no problem with that, but I

19 just wanted to make sure we're talking about the

20 same thing.

21 Okay. So let me go through the patent and

22 I will tell you those practical use case factors as

23 they are in the patent in the specification.

24 Q. Were you done with your answer, sir?

25 A. Yeah, I have to go through the patent

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1 specification and I can give you the use case

2 factors. I can't do them off the top of my head.

3 Q. So short of reading the 30-plus columns of

4 the patent specification, you are not able to

5 identify for me what -- the practical use case

6 factors you applied in performing your enablement

7 analysis in this case?

8 A. Oh, I can identify a few of these factors,

9 but you said you wanted the practical use case

10 factors, which I assumed was all the use case

11 factors. Do you want just a few of the use case

12 factors?

13 Q. Why don't you identify the ones that you

14 can here without having to read the entire patent.

15 A. Well, I think -- and this is some of them,

16 but there are many more -- if you read through the

17 patent, the device is made for working on a ship,

18 and so, therefore -- and it's to connect to a

19 network on a ship.

20 And so, therefore, I think you have use

21 case factors of, first of all, you've got to be able

22 to put the device out to sea, it's seaworthy, and

23 you have to make the device communicate to the

24 network, the BLE network on the ship.

25 And then you have factors of wearability.

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1 So there's all kinds of descriptions in the patent,

2 which I can get into detail in, in wearability and

3 also usability, because you have to have people

4 seamlessly use these devices and be dependent on

5 them for various tasks that are defined in the

6 patent on the ship.

7 So to get into the detail of that, I have

8 to go through the patent and see all the things they

9 described. But I think that's really the use case

10 of the devices. That's what I remember. There's

11 more in the patent.

12 Q. How do these use cases influence an

13 enablement analysis?

14 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

15 A. Well, as I mentioned in the declaration,

16 one consideration of the use case is that it has to

17 kind of replace a similar device that people are

18 used to, and so that's a size thing where you may

19 have them wear it as a watch, so that -- you have to

20 consider, you know, maybe the device has to be a use

21 case as a watch, it can't -- you know. And so maybe

22 there are some tangible things about size and

23 watches and the other -- in that use case.

24 And sometimes it's better to make it

25 bigger so people don't lose it and they can have a

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1 bigger battery life on their watch. So that's -- I

2 did mention that -- on their watch-like beacon

3 device. So that's one thing I mentioned inside the

4 declaration.

5 Q. In your expert analysis in this case, did

6 the use cases restrict the scope of subject matter

7 that you felt needed to be enabled by the patent

8 specification?

9 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

10 A. I don't understand that question.

11 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

12 Q. Okay. Well, in paragraph 15, you mention

13 that the enablement requirement requires the

14 "patent's specification teach a person of ordinary

15 skill in the art how to practice the full scope of

16 the claimed invention . . . "

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Now, my question is: When you considered

20 these use cases, did you consider these use cases as

21 something that would narrow the scope of the claimed

22 invention that had to be enabled?

23 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

24 A. So I have to understand what you mean by

25 "the scope of the claimed invention."

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. Well, let me ask you this, sir: Did you

3 consider the scope of the claimed invention in

4 forming your enablement opinions in this case?

5 A. Well, I need to know what you mean --

6 define by "scope of the claimed invention." So are

7 we talking about the claim language or are we --

8 what are we talking about here?

9 Q. Claim language.

10 You understand that the claim defines the

11 metes and bounds of a patent invention, correct?

12 A. Yes. If we're talking about the claim

13 language, the written specification before the

14 claims does not define the scope of the claims.

15 Q. Right. The claims define the scope of the

16 invention, correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. You understand that -- when you analyzed

19 enablement of Claim 11 of the '514 patent, you

20 understood that the requirement was that the

21 specification had to enable the full scope of

22 Claim 11, correct?

23 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

24 conclusion.

25 A. Say that again.

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. When you formed your enablement opinions

3 in this case, did you consider the question of

4 whether the full scope of Claim 11 was enabled?

5 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

6 A. Well, no. I considered what a POSITA

7 would do -- what the -- I considered the claim

8 language in Claim 11, including all the components,

9 and I considered the size of a device that a POSITA

10 would make to realize -- that -- could make to --

11 that would make -- for that claim.

12 VIDEOGRAPHER: Pardon me. Really quick,

13 Doctor, could you tilt your camera down just a

14 titch.

15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.

16 VIDEOGRAPHER: And then could you take

17 your boom mic and move it a little bit further

18 away from your mouth. Yeah. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: Sure.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Now, Doctor, you kind of said two things

22 in that answer and the distinction between them is

23 important, so I'm going to drill into it.

24 You said that you considered Claim 11 and

25 all the requirements and then you considered what a

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1 POSITA would make and then you changed that to could

2 make, or maybe the other way around.

3 So which one was it? Did you consider

4 what a POSITA would make or did you consider what a

5 POSITA could make?

6 A. Okay. For the enablement discussion, I

7 considered what a POSITA would understand the

8 constraints on the size of the device that could be

9 made and the components described in Claim 11.

10 That's really what I did.

11 MR. MEDINA: We've been going about an

12 hour now.

13 MR. SCHMIDT: Actually, I think we're less

14 than a hour on the record, but let me just wrap

15 up this line of questioning and then we can

16 take a break.

17 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

18 Q. So in considering whether or not Claim 11

19 was enabled, you did not consider whether the full

20 scope of Claim 11, as written, was enabled, correct?

21 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague. Misstates

22 the witness's testimony.

23 A. Again, I considered what a POSITA, you

24 know, could -- or I considered a POSITA would

25 understand the size of a device that could be made

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1 under Claim 11 with all the components included.

2 That's what I did.

3 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

4 Q. And when you made that consideration, how

5 did that influence your enablement opinions?

6 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague. Calls for

7 a legal conclusion.

8 A. Yeah, I guess what are you asking?

9 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

10 Q. Well, let me back up. Let me try to get

11 something straight first.

12 Do you have any opinion as to whether the

13 full scope of Claim 11 is enabled?

14 A. Well, again, I'm going to say my opinion

15 is that a POSITA would understand that the size of

16 the device in Claim 11 is -- you know, is determined

17 by the consideration of the components inside

18 Claim 11. That's what I understand.

19 Q. Are you telling me that the device that's

20 claimed by Claim 11 -- well, strike that.

21 Are you telling me that Claim 11 is

22 limited to a device that a POSITA could build with

23 all the components?

24 A. No, the --

25 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Hold on.

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1 Objection. Vague, lacks foundation, and

2 misstates the witness's testimony.

3 MR. SCHMIDT: I didn't misstate anything.

4 It was a question. So if this is some effort

5 to coach the witness, then we're going to have

6 a problem with that. All right? It's a

7 question. There wasn't any statement.

8 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

9 Q. The question for the witness is: Is it

10 your opinion that Claim 11 is limited in size to

11 dimensions that a POSITA could actually make and

12 build having all the recited components?

13 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague and calls

14 for a legal conclusion.

15 A. I think that Claim 11 stands by itself,

16 and if you read Claim 11, those are the words of

17 Claim 11.

18 But we are talking about the statement of

19 Claim 11 and then we're talking about enabling. And

20 the written words in Claim 11 are one thing and what

21 is enabled is another thing.

22 MR. MEDINA: Are we still on the same line

23 of questions?

24 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.

25

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. Is there a difference between the written

3 words in Claim 11 and what is enabled?

4 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

5 A. I guess I have to say my understanding is

6 there is.

7 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

8 Q. So your understanding, just to clarify, is

9 that the scope of Claim 11 and the scope of what the

10 patent specification enables is different, correct?

11 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Misstates the

12 witness's testimony.

13 A. No. No. My understanding is the

14 statement of Claim 11 or the specification -- the

15 claim language of Claim 11 is one thing, but that

16 what is enabled in terms of what a POSITA would

17 understand, you know, in terms of the size of a

18 device that could be constructed using the language

19 of Claim 11 and the components of Claim 11 and the

20 specification are a different thing.

21 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

22 Q. Okay. I think I understand.

23 Just to be -- just to close this out, you

24 haven't offered any limiting construction for

25 Claim 11, correct?

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1 A. I don't recall mentioning limiting in my

2 disclosure at this time.

3 Q. And you are not opining that the scope of

4 Claim 11 as written is limited to some minimum

5 dimension, correct?

6 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

7 A. I am -- well, we have to go into that. I

8 am opining that it is -- there is an inherent limit

9 in the enablement of Claim 11 that a POSITA would

10 see and understand if they were asked to design a

11 device in Claim 11 with all the components.

12 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

13 Q. And is it your testimony that this

14 inherent limit that you mentioned limits the scope

15 of the claim?

16 A. No. The scope of the claim is the scope

17 of the claim as it reads.

18 Q. So your understanding of the law is that

19 the inherent limit is the limit on what needs to be

20 enabled, but then Carnival can read the claim onto

21 some device that goes beyond the inherent limit for

22 purposes of infringement.

23 Is that your understanding of the law?

24 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

25 conclusion.

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1 A. No. I don't understand that law.

2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

3 Q. Okay. So do you understand that the

4 inherent limit is a limit on the scope of the claim?

5 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

6 conclusion.

7 A. No, I understand that inherent limit is

8 set by what a POSITA -- POSITA could understand they

9 could design given, you know, the size of the -- in

10 size for this particular claim of the device

11 described in Claim 1 -- Claim 11 with all the

12 components of Claim 11.

13 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. Why don't we take a

14 break now, come back in about ten minutes.

15 MR. MEDINA: Yeah, sounds good.

16 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you open up a breakout

17 room for Mr. Kneitel and myself?

18 VIDEOGRAPHER: Sure.

19 We're off the record. It's 4:07 p.m.

20 (Recess was held from 4:07 p.m. until 4:18 p.m.)

21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.

22 It's 4:18 p.m.

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. Welcome back, Doctor.

25 I want to turn to paragraph 19 of your

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1 declaration.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. In paragraph 19, you state, "I also

4 understand that open-ended ranges may be supported

5 if there is an inherent, but not precisely known,

6 upper or lower limit," and then it goes on from

7 there.

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. First of all, Claim 11 of the '514 patent

11 recites an open-ended range, correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And you note here your understanding that

14 such an open-ended range may be supported if there

15 is an inherent limit, correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. What is your understanding of an inherent

18 limit?

19 A. Again, that's a very, very general sort of

20 statement.

21 I can say specifically what I understand

22 it is for this case, but that's kind of a

23 case-by-case sort of thing.

24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Doctor, we're losing you a

25 little bit in the picture.

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1 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Is that better?

2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. Thank you.

3 A. So, no, it's kind of a case-by-case sort

4 of determination or -- you know. But please ask the

5 question again.

6 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

7 Q. Sure. I was just wondering what your

8 understanding of an inherent limit was in this

9 enabling context.

10 A. Well, in the context of the '514 patent,

11 we're looking at the specific part of the claim

12 language, which I believe is Claim Element 1 -- I'm

13 not -- I have to check that -- where you say it's

14 open-ended.

15 That particular one, I understand that --

16 you know, I understand that -- well, there's two

17 different factors. Are you understanding how it's

18 determined or are you understanding the factors that

19 are involved in it?

20 Q. Let's start with the factors involved in

21 determining an inherent limit.

22 Can you identify for me the factors you

23 look to?

24 A. Well, I think, first, in this particular

25 case, in '514, Claim 11, I think you look at the

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1 claim language first and all the elements of that

2 claim.

3 And then you look at, again, the

4 specification as it describes the use case of that

5 particular device.

6 And then if there are some other factors

7 that a POSITA would naturally know would be --

8 impact that device just from their common knowledge,

9 you would have to include those other factors,

10 like -- things like, you know, cost or something

11 like that could come in if it's impossibly

12 expensive, you know, if you do certain things.

13 So -- but the primary factors would be the

14 claim language in the specification.

15 Q. You said the specification -- strike that.

16 You said the claim language, the elements

17 of the claim, the specification, the use case --

18 A. Right. But the use case is defined in the

19 specification.

20 Q. Okay. And then you mentioned the

21 possibility of other factors.

22 A. Right, like cost could be a prohibitive

23 thing or there could be physical factors that are

24 impossible to deal with, right? You know, you can't

25 make something that's arbitrarily small.

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1 Q. Did any of those other factors like cost

2 or physical factors come into play in your analysis

3 in this case?

4 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

5 A. Well, I think if you want to go through my

6 analysis, I can tell you that. But I would go

7 through and look at Sections -- Opinion Sections 23

8 and I could tell you what factors that influence me.

9 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

10 Q. Well, maybe I should ask a threshold

11 question.

12 In your expert analysis, did you identify

13 an inherent limit to the portable device of

14 Claim 11?

15 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

16 A. I -- identify an inherent limit? Do you

17 mean did I state a number?

18 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

19 Q. Not necessarily a number.

20 Are you able to provide any specificity

21 about what an inherent limit for a portable device

22 as recited in Claim 11 would be?

23 A. I can say that it has to be bigger than

24 zero size.

25 Q. Anything else?

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1 A. I can say -- well, that's absolute

2 minimum.

3 I can say, again, that -- you know, that I

4 feel that a POSITA would have to, you know,

5 understand that there was an inherent limit in the

6 size, determined by the claim elements and the

7 structure of the claim. But I have not determined

8 that limit.

9 Q. In paragraph 19, you say that for an

10 open-ended range to be supported, there would have

11 to be an inherent, but not precisely known, upper or

12 lower limit and the specification enables one of

13 skill in the art to approach that limit.

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But if you haven't determined what the

17 inherent limit is, how can you say whether or not

18 the specification enables one of skill in the art to

19 approach that limit?

20 A. Well, we know the device could be made, so

21 then the question is, what is the limit on the

22 device. In this particular case, I'm talking about

23 size of the device.

24 And my experience as a designer and

25 looking at the specification tells me that there is

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1 a limit there, but I would have to, you know, work

2 on that and investigate that limit in order to find

3 that limit. And I've just not been asked to do so.

4 Q. Okay. So just so I'm clear, as an expert

5 witness in this case, you have not been asked to

6 form or render any opinion as to where any alleged

7 inherent limit might exist for the portable wireless

8 device of Claim 11 of the '514 patent, correct?

9 A. I have -- let me put it in my own words.

10 I have not been asked to find what is the inherent

11 limit that a POSITA would understand to be the limit

12 in size of the device made in Claim 11, including

13 all its components and considering the

14 specification, no.

15 Q. Are you sure there even is an inherent

16 limit?

17 A. My experience tells me -- and I have

18 extensive design experience -- yes, there's an

19 inherent limit if you consider everything in terms

20 of making a practical wearable device. There is a

21 limit.

22 Q. Is Claim 11 limited to a wearable device?

23 A. I would have to read the claim language.

24 MR. MEDINA: Calls for a legal conclusion.

25

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. You recite the claim language in paragraph

3 24, so feel free to refer to it.

4 A. Did you say paragraph 24?

5 Q. Correct.

6 A. Okay. What was the question again?

7 Q. The question is whether Claim 11 is

8 limited to a wearable device.

9 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

10 A. It says that Claim 11 requires a portable

11 wireless device.

12 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

13 Q. Do you interpret "portable wireless

14 device" to mean a wearable device?

15 A. No, I do not.

16 Q. Okay. So if Claim 11 is not limited to a

17 wearable device, then why did you consider what an

18 inherent limit of a wearable device would be?

19 A. I guess I considered the patent

20 specification -- I think the title of the patent. I

21 have to go back to the patent. But I read the

22 patent in its entirety.

23 Q. Is there any principle of physics that

24 prevents a device from -- strike that.

25 Is there any principle of physics that

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1 precludes shrinking a device having all the

2 components of Claim 11 down below a certain

3 threshold?

4 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

5 A. Okay. You just asked me a very, very

6 difficult question.

7 Because I have background in integrated

8 circuit design and also wireless IC design and

9 packaging, I really would have to work through that

10 and go through a lot of thought, especially since

11 some of the requirements here for BLE and memory and

12 such are -- require fairly sophisticated chips to

13 put on that device.

14 So the answer is I don't think you can

15 shrink this device arbitrarily, but it would take

16 awhile to come up with what that limit is.

17 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

18 Q. And I take it you haven't performed that

19 analysis as part of your expert opinions in this

20 case?

21 A. No, I have not.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that whatever that

23 scientific or physical limit is, a person of

24 ordinary skill in the art is going to have to engage

25 in undue experimentation in order to reach that

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1 limit? Would you agree with that, sir?

2 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague. Calls for

3 a legal conclusion.

4 A. Well, I would have to separate out two

5 limits here. I'm not a person of ordinary skill in

6 the art, and that is not a limit I would expect them

7 to be able to hit, what I can do if I was given

8 infinite resources.

9 I would expect them to come up with a

10 easier -- much easier design limit where they would

11 understand, again, a full on understanding how to

12 put all the elements of Claim 11 into a device at a

13 certain size, and that would be their limit.

14 But they would use parts that would remove

15 the undue experimentation that I would require. I

16 mean, what you are asking is would I invent a new

17 device that could do this arbitrarily small? And

18 the answer is I could, but that's not what I expect

19 a person of ordinary skill in the art to do. I

20 expect them to have a different limit than what I

21 could do.

22 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

23 Q. I understand.

24 But you would agree with me that a person

25 of ordinary skill in the art could not reach that

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1 physical or scientific limit that you agree likely

2 exists for these types of devices, correct?

3 A. Well, I don't think a person of ordinary

4 skill in the art can't reach zero. That's the

5 smallest limit you've got. They have their limit.

6 Q. But I'm not asking about that limit right

7 now.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Let me back up.

10 You agree with me that there is a physical

11 or scientific limit to how small a device according

12 to Claim 11 can be made, correct?

13 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

14 A. Well, I guess, you know, again, this gets

15 into, you know, enablement. And we're talking about

16 inherent limits where I think there -- how would I

17 put this? -- I think that the POSITA limit, which is

18 what they would do with all the consideration of the

19 claims, they also, of course -- their enable limit

20 would also consider the use case and the

21 specification would be different than my limit if I

22 don't consider the use case.

23 So in my limit that you are asking me for

24 what I can make on that claim, I'm not considering a

25 use case. I'm not considering the application as a

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1 wearable device on a ship. So my constraints are

2 different. I'm just trying to miniaturize like

3 crazy. I'm not making a wearable device.

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. Sure, and that's all I'm asking you about

6 now.

7 You agree that just miniaturizing like

8 crazy, like you put it, you can shrink down a device

9 meeting all the limitations of Claim 11, but only to

10 some physical or scientific limit, correct?

11 A. Yeah, I would agree with that.

12 Q. And you would agree that a person of

13 ordinary skill in the art, as you have defined such

14 a person, couldn't build such a device, right?

15 A. They have their limit, which would be, you

16 know, within their capability of understanding their

17 field and their -- you know, and their profession

18 and their understanding of the claim and

19 understanding of the application and the use case of

20 the device. So they wouldn't build that device.

21 Q. Not only wouldn't they build the device,

22 they couldn't build the device, right, sir?

23 A. No, I don't think they could build the

24 device that I could build.

25 Q. Let's turn to paragraph 26 of your

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1 declaration.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. In paragraph 26, you say, "It is my

4 opinion that the patent specification of the '514

5 patent, read from the perspective of one skilled in

6 the art, teaches how to design a device that meets

7 all of the claim limitations recited in Claim 11."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. All you're saying there is that a person

11 of skill in the art can reach some dimension that's

12 within the scope of the claim, right?

13 A. Well, I don't even think I mention

14 dimensions; I just say it tells you how to design

15 the device that meets the claim limitations.

16 But, of course, they have to be -- the

17 claim -- it has to be 2.5 inches or less.

18 Q. And what you are saying in paragraph 26 is

19 just that a person of ordinary skill in the art can

20 build a device that's at least 2.5 inches in a

21 dimension, correct?

22 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

23 A. Well, I say, yeah, that the person --

24 knowledgeable POSITA would understand that they

25 could have a device having all dimensions equal or

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1 less than 2.5 inches, okay, and, of course, the body

2 thickness equal to or smaller than 5/8 of an inch.

3 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

4 Q. Okay. What did you rely on in rendering

5 this opinion that a person of ordinary skill in the

6 art could design some device that meets all the

7 limitations of Claim 11?

8 A. I actually looked at the specification of

9 the patent.

10 Q. Did you consider any devices that existed

11 out in the art?

12 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

13 A. Well, that's a difficult question to

14 answer directly because I'm so involved in the art

15 every day helping people do design. I have, you

16 know, 40 design teams of 2 seniors every semester,

17 and every day I help them do design. So, you know,

18 I'm very aware of what's out there in the art.

19 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

20 Q. And you know, for example, sir, that

21 devices with the sorts of features recited in

22 Claim 11 and less than 2.5 inches and 5/8 of an inch

23 in thickness are common in the art, correct?

24 A. Well, there are particular features in

25 this device that are less common, but I've seen the

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1 features of these devices in various combinations.

2 But those particular dimensions with those

3 particular features, this is the first case.

4 And there are some specific features in

5 terms of communication that are specific to my

6 seeing this kind of thing, like, you know, BLE and

7 NFC in the same claim. So I haven't seen them all

8 combined like this claim.

9 Q. You've never seen a portable wireless

10 device with both BLE and NFC capabilities before?

11 A. I have seen one, but I haven't seen

12 them -- oh, I can't say that. I don't remember

13 seeing the BLE capability in that device. Some of

14 them have Bluetooth. And I don't remember seeing

15 all these things done in this dimension.

16 Q. I was a little unclear from your answer.

17 Have you seen a portable wireless device

18 with both BLE and NFC capabilities in the art prior

19 to this case?

20 A. No, I don't think I have. That

21 combination I have not seen, not with this size.

22 Q. Have you seen a portable device with a

23 combination of BLE and NFC capabilities in any size?

24 A. I have seen a -- just recently an

25 announcement of a device which can take an NFC

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1 antenna and runs Bluetooth, but I don't think it

2 runs BLE, just about a month ago.

3 Q. What device is that?

4 A. I think I saw it as Particle Industries

5 devices, but it's recently announced. It had a -- I

6 think it had a connection for an NFC antenna.

7 Q. Have you seen devices with a processor and

8 memory in dimensions less than 2.5 inches?

9 A. Oh, yeah.

10 Q. So there's nothing novel or inventive

11 about a device having processor or memory packaged

12 in a portable device less than 2.5 inches, correct?

13 A. No, that is not novel.

14 Q. Is there anything novel about a device

15 having a processor and memory and a BLE antenna

16 packaged within a device less than 2.5 inches?

17 MR. MEDINA: Objection to the extent this

18 calls for a legal conclusion.

19 A. I'm going through my memory. When you're

20 asking me these questions, I'm -- actually have to

21 dig through it.

22 Say -- please ask the question again.

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. Sure.

25 Is there anything novel or inventive about

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1 a portable device having processor, a memory, and a

2 BLE antenna, all packaged within a dimension less

3 than 2.5 inches?

4 MR. MEDINA: Same objection.

5 A. I don't know. I don't know if I've seen

6 that device. So I don't know if I've seen one with

7 that -- there are fewer BLE devices out there, so I

8 don't know.

9 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

10 Q. Would it be within the skill of a person

11 of ordinary skill in the art to package a device

12 with processor and memory and a BLE antenna in a

13 dimension less than 2.5 inches?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would it be within the ordinary skill --

16 strike that.

17 Would it be within the capabilities of a

18 person of ordinary skill in the art to package a

19 device with processor, memory, a BLE antenna, and an

20 NFC antenna into a dimension less than 2.5 inches?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is there anything in Claim 11 that you

23 believe would be outside the capabilities of a

24 person of ordinary skill in the art?

25 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

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1 A. Can I look at the claim again?

2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

3 Q. Sure.

4 A. Okay. Can you please ask that question

5 again?

6 Q. Sure. I might change the wording a little

7 bit.

8 Is there anything in Claim 11 that you

9 believe would be outside the ordinary knowledge of a

10 person of ordinary skill in the art?

11 MR. MEDINA: Same objection. Vague.

12 A. Okay. My strength is in hardware, and I

13 can see that a POSITA could realize the portable

14 wireless device comprising a body having a fully

15 enclosed cavity in dimensions equal to or smaller

16 than 2.5 inches and less than 5/8 of an inch, a

17 processor, a memory, a battery, and first and second

18 wireless communication antennas in the cavity, and

19 then, you know, the -- I can see the communications

20 antenna configured for Bluetooth and NFC and the

21 processor configured to make links between remote

22 devices using first communication antenna configured

23 for BLE communications. I can see that. You are

24 getting beyond what I know about when you talk about

25 private identifiers.

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1 So I can see the physical hardware can be

2 done by a POSITA.

3 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

4 Q. Okay. So would you agree with me, sir,

5 that reading Claim 11 from the beginning all the way

6 up to the recitation of the private identifier, at

7 least all of that claim would be common knowledge to

8 a person of ordinary skill in the art?

9 A. Well, I believe that -- I don't know if

10 that would be common knowledge to a person of

11 ordinary skill in the art, but I think a person of

12 ordinary skill in the art could do that given a look

13 at the specification of the patent.

14 Q. In the portion of the claim I identified

15 for you, from the beginning all the way up to the

16 private identifier, is there anything in that

17 portion of the claim that you could identify that

18 would be outside common knowledge to a person of

19 ordinary skill in the art?

20 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

21 A. Well, I think that a person of the --

22 ordinary skill in the art would use the literature

23 and the available pieces and parts out there. So if

24 you allow them to -- you know, to use what's

25 available, you know, and get some help from, you

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1 know, spec sheets like NXP, like we've already

2 talked about, I think -- and the TI NFC

3 communication specifications and also the patent

4 specification itself, I think that is possible for

5 the person of ordinary skill in the art to do all

6 the stuff, as you mentioned, up to the -- you know,

7 the public and private identifiers.

8 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

9 Q. Let me ask it this way: Prior to the '514

10 patent, a person of ordinary skill in the art would

11 have been aware that portable wireless devices

12 existed, correct?

13 A. Sure --

14 Q. Prior --

15 A. -- yes.

16 Q. Prior to the '514 patent, a person of

17 ordinary skill in the art would have been aware that

18 portable wireless devices with a body existed,

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Person of ordinary skill in the art, prior

22 to the '514 patent, would have been aware that

23 portable wireless devices with a body in a fully

24 enclosed cavity existed, correct?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Prior to the '514 patent, a person of

2 ordinary skill in the art would have been aware that

3 a portable wireless device with a body in a fully

4 enclosed cavity and all dimensions less than

5 2.5 inches existed, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. A person of ordinary skill in the art,

8 prior to the '514 patent, would have been aware that

9 a portable wireless device with all those features I

10 just mentioned existed with a processor and a memory

11 within it, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Prior to the '514 patent, a person of

14 ordinary skill in the art would have known that BLE

15 antennas existed, correct?

16 A. I'm just -- it takes me awhile to think

17 about when BLE came out. I think so.

18 Q. Right. Carnival didn't invent --

19 A. No, I think it was there, yeah.

20 Q. A person of ordinary skill in the art,

21 before the '514 patent, would have understood that

22 NFC antennas already existed, correct?

23 A. That is true.

24 Q. Carnival didn't invent NFC, right?

25 A. No, they did not.

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1 Q. Let's turn to paragraph 28 of your

2 declaration. And I want to direct you to the second

3 sentence in paragraph 28. For the record, this

4 sentence reads, "In the context of a wearable device

5 intended to be worn or carried by a person, it is

6 often the case that one would be inclined to make

7 the largest device possible that would be acceptable

8 for that use case because the increased size allows

9 for the greatest design flexibility."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. How does the inclination of a person of

13 ordinary skill in the art make the largest device

14 possible acceptable for use case, how does that

15 inclination affect your enablement opinions in this

16 case?

17 A. I guess I don't understand the question.

18 I mean, it affects my design, my idea of doing

19 design for this thing if I was to build one.

20 But enablement is a different -- well,

21 could you clarify your question?

22 Q. Well, I'm really just trying to understand

23 why this sentence is in paragraph 28, because you

24 start paragraph 28 by saying, "DeCurtis' focus on

25 near-zero dimensional values misses the point."

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1 Do you see that?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And then you say, "A POSITA tasked with

4 designing a portable wireless device must consider

5 many design attributes or specifications."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And then you go into the sentence that I

9 started this line of questioning on.

10 So what I'm trying to understand in your

11 words is how does the inclination of a person of

12 ordinary skill in the art relate to the enablement

13 question that's really at issue here in paragraph

14 28?

15 A. Well, their context on the enablement, you

16 know, and making a prototype, their ability to

17 understand the size that you can make the device,

18 you know, including all the components in Claim 11

19 is also driven by, again -- I was thinking the

20 specification does do something in terms of -- to

21 me, maybe not to the claim -- but to me in terms of

22 the wearable -- you know, the wearable device, that

23 they're going to see that you make a device that

24 somebody is going to wear or use, and if you can use

25 the largest possible size for that thing, then you

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1 can drastically sometimes lower cost and up your

2 manufacturability and have a much easier time and

3 use easier technologies, more off-the-shelf parts.

4 So it makes it -- the design flexible and

5 easier. That's what I'm just trying to say, that

6 it's kind of a nice thing for a designer to make the

7 big device. It makes their life easier.

8 Q. Is it your opinion that all that

9 enablement requires for Claim 11 is that the

10 specification provide enough disclosure to practice

11 a device that a person of ordinary skill in the art

12 would be inclined to make?

13 A. No. I think it has to disclose enough so

14 the person with ordinary skill in the art can see

15 and understand what the limitation in size is and

16 also the use case for the device, and then that use

17 case or that -- the person can be driven by whatever

18 design specifications they're given, you know, as

19 part of their job.

20 Q. You said that the patent specification has

21 to disclose enough so that the person of ordinary

22 skill in the art can see and understand what the

23 limitation in size is and also the use case for the

24 device, right?

25 A. Yeah, in the sense that it adds something

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1 to the claim language.

2 Q. And based on your expert analysis in this

3 case, what is that limitation in size and the use

4 case for Claim 11 of the '514 patent?

5 A. Okay. I've already -- well, you said I

6 did not determine the limitation in size except for

7 the absolute lowest limitation, which is zero, so I

8 can't answer that.

9 What was the other part of the question?

10 Q. Sure.

11 Did you make any effort to determine what

12 the use case for Claim 11 of the '514 patent was?

13 A. Well, I looked at the specification and I

14 interpreted the use case as, you know, a use case of

15 a device that was on a ship that substituted as a

16 wristwatch, was a beacon, could be substituted as a

17 pendant or a bracelet, looking at the figures inside

18 the patent.

19 Q. Is it your opinion that all these use case

20 requirements add limitations to the claim?

21 A. I think --

22 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

23 conclusion. Sorry.

24 A. I think that one would say that they're

25 embodiments of the claim.

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1 I would have to read the patent

2 specification and -- you know, and see exactly what

3 it said, but I think that the patent, in light of

4 the specification, the limitations are basically

5 determined by the judge in the case.

6 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

7 Q. Well, regardless of whether they limit the

8 claim, you considered things like the device having

9 to be on a ship --

10 A. Right.

11 Q. -- that could be substituted for a

12 wristwatch and being able to be used in a pendant or

13 bracelet, you considered these factors as relevant

14 to the scope of enablement that you felt had to be

15 provided, correct?

16 A. Yes, I figure these factors are part of

17 the inherent limit the POSITA would do -- would find

18 when they were trying to understand, you know, the

19 size limitation, you know, of Claim 11 with all the

20 components included.

21 Q. And if it was theoretically possible to

22 build an even smaller device outside the ship or

23 wristwatch or pendant or bracelet context, that

24 theoretical capability isn't relevant to your

25 enablement analysis; is that fair?

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1 A. I have not considered that as part of my

2 enablement analysis. I don't know whether it's

3 relevant or not, but it's not been part of my

4 analysis.

5 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. Why don't we take our

6 second break.

7 MR. MEDINA: Ten minutes or how long,

8 Patrick?

9 MR. SCHMIDT: Ten minutes.

10 MR. MEDINA: Okay.

11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. It's

12 5:08 p.m.

13 (Recess was held from 5:08 p.m. until 5:20 p.m.)

14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.

15 It's 5:20 p.m.

16 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

17 Q. Welcome back, Doctor.

18 Take a look at paragraph 24 of your

19 declaration where you recite the claim language of

20 Claim 11.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. My question is: In forming your expert

23 opinions in this case, did you understand all the

24 elements of Claim 11?

25 A. I understand the elements of Claim 11.

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1 Q. Do you agree that the elements of Claim 11

2 have a plain and ordinary meaning?

3 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Outside the

4 scope.

5 A. That is -- okay, that's an interesting

6 question.

7 A plain and ordinary meaning to me may not

8 be a plain and ordinary meaning to somebody who is,

9 you know, not a practitioner. So what do you mean

10 by "plain and ordinary meaning"?

11 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

12 Q. Well, what I really wanted to know was are

13 there any elements of Claim 11 that you think need

14 to be construed before you could consider the

15 enablement question?

16 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

17 conclusion.

18 A. I have not thought about claim

19 construction or claim term definition or anything

20 like that, so I would have to sit back and look at

21 this and think about it. That's a whole 'nother can

22 of worms. I haven't thought about it at all.

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. But you've rendered opinions regarding

25 enablement for Claim 11, correct?

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1 A. I've rendered opinions based upon my

2 understanding of what a POSITA would understand what

3 the language is. That is how I did it.

4 I don't know -- I mean, again, I'm coming

5 at this from a lot of experience, and I would -- I'm

6 rendering my opinion on what I think my students

7 would understand this language is.

8 But that may not be the language that the

9 Court construes in a Markman hearing for what this

10 means. I've often been -- my language is often

11 different than other language, but I can tell you

12 what it means to me.

13 Q. Right.

14 And the fact that the Court hasn't

15 construed any of the terms of Claim 11 of the '514

16 patent, that didn't affect your ability to render an

17 enablement opinion in your declaration, correct?

18 A. No, it did not, because I used the, as you

19 say, common -- I didn't use common, I used the

20 language that an electrical engineer would use or a

21 computer engineer would use to understand what this

22 means.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you.

24 Can you turn to paragraph 30 of your

25 declaration, please.

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1 A. Okay. I'm there.

2 Q. And in Claim [sic] 30, you articulate some

3 of the considerations that a POSITA would take into

4 account when designing a portable wireless device;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And are these considerations that a POSITA

8 would take into account in designing the portable

9 wireless device recited in Claim 11 of the '514

10 patent?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The considerations you mention are "use

13 case, whatever specifications are mandated by that

14 use case, and possibly other manufacturing-related

15 considerations to design a device."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I do see that.

18 Q. What do you mean by "whatever

19 specifications are mandated by that use case"?

20 A. So let's take an example. If I feel that

21 the specification is for use inside a cruise ship,

22 then the specification would be -- one of the

23 specifications -- there's many -- would be

24 communication throughout that cruise ship. So I

25 would be interested in what is the range of

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1 communication and what is the range -- you know, and

2 also inside that cruise ship, so inside a mock

3 cruise ship.

4 Range is affected by reflections and all

5 kinds of -- and RF interference, so you would have

6 to kind of understand how far you needed to

7 communicate and then you could design the

8 appropriately sized device battery for that, or you

9 would have to decide -- understand how long you

10 wanted the device to work without changing batteries

11 or being serviced and then you would have to design

12 for that specification.

13 And that is affected by the range that it

14 has to communicate. So there are these -- and also

15 the environment that it's in, whether there's, you

16 know, again, reflections, whether there's a lot of

17 devices operating in an area or a few devices

18 operating in an area, whether it opens a door, which

19 may be able to have a shorter range to communicate,

20 or it opens -- you know, it does something which

21 needs a longer range, like you -- a beacon to tell

22 somebody you're falling overboard or something like

23 that, we may have to operate a longer range.

24 So the specifications come out of the use

25 case and then the device has to work along those

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1 specifications.

2 Q. And you would agree, sir, that different

3 cruise ships -- if you're in the cruise context,

4 different cruise ships might have different

5 requirements, which would lead to different

6 considerations in designing this device, correct?

7 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

8 A. Well, I've only been on one cruise

9 recently, which -- in the last, say, 20 years, so

10 it's speculation about what's on cruise ships.

11 But I can talk about my experience of

12 designing for different environments, and, yes, I

13 believe that specifications change with the

14 expectation of what's supposed to happen in that

15 environment, which is somewhat set by management, as

16 well as by customers.

17 So there's a real -- yeah, so, I guess I'm

18 speculating -- and I don't like doing that -- but

19 I'm speculating that there could be a difference in

20 what is needed in various applications of the

21 device.

22 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

23 Q. These considerations that you list here in

24 paragraph 30 are considerations that you contend

25 help define the inherent limit of the claim,

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1 correct?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. So is it the case, sir, that what the

4 inherent limit for Claim 11 is depends on the

5 particular subjective specifications of any given

6 designer seeking to implement the device?

7 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

8 A. Well --

9 MR. MEDINA: Calls for a legal conclusion.

10 A. I hate to say, you know, subjective

11 specifications, but I really do think it comes down

12 to what is -- the environment and the application

13 that it's being used for, and that environment and

14 application specification does change with what you

15 are doing with the device.

16 So, yes, I think if you have multiple use

17 cases, you may have different inherent limits on how

18 a POSITA would understand the size that you can make

19 the device from Claim 11.

20 And, you know, I can just give a case

21 where I have a device that has to broadcast 300 feet

22 and it has to last, you know, a month could be a

23 fair amount larger than a device that had to

24 broadcast 5 feet and had to last, you know, a day in

25 terms of battery usage.

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1 So that's where the inherent specification

2 is -- the use case does affect how you actually put

3 what's inside that device.

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. And different designers seeking to

6 implement a device according to Claim 11 might have

7 different inherent limits based on the

8 considerations of their system, correct?

9 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague. Calls for

10 speculation.

11 A. Well, again, I don't know what different

12 designers are going to see, but it is possible that

13 different use cases define -- come with different

14 specifications and those specifications require

15 different minimal designs or small design. They

16 have different size of minimal designs.

17 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

18 Q. And, therefore, the inherent limit would

19 change based on the designer seeking to implement

20 the system, right?

21 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for a legal

22 conclusion.

23 A. Well, I guess it comes down to -- and this

24 is where I'm not strong -- is what is the legal

25 definition of "inherent limit."

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1 So is the inherent limit of the device the

2 minimum size of all of these particular

3 specifications or is it an inherent limit for each

4 device? And that's beyond my legal understanding.

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Well, what understanding did you apply in

7 forming your expert opinions?

8 A. I understood that these devices -- the use

9 cases of these devices created an inherent limit to

10 how small they could be made, but I -- and that's as

11 far as I understand it.

12 Q. What use cases specifically did you

13 understand created an inherent limit for this

14 particular claim?

15 A. The use cases in the specification of the

16 '514 patent.

17 Q. I would like you now to give me as much

18 specificity around those use cases that you used in

19 conceptualizing the inherent limit in this case.

20 MR. MEDINA: Vague.

21 A. Yeah, I don't -- what do you mean by

22 "specificity"?

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. Well, you've opined that there's an

25 inherent limit based on use case, right?

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1 A. Right.

2 Q. And you told me that your understanding

3 was that there were certain elements of the use case

4 that contributed to that inherent limit, right?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. I would like to know with as much

7 specificity as you can provide here what those

8 elements of the use case are that contributed to

9 your understanding of an inherent limit?

10 A. Okay. So I can -- okay, so I'm

11 understanding what you are saying now.

12 Okay. So I can't cover all of them

13 because I have -- I'm not in the design space there,

14 but I can understand -- first of all, you want to

15 know -- well, I mentioned one, range. You want to

16 know how far you want to transmit, and you need to

17 know that for both your devices.

18 You need to know how strong the other side

19 is, how good the receiver and how good on the other

20 side -- transmitter on the other side, because that

21 can change your design.

22 You need to know how long you want your

23 device to last without changing batteries. That's a

24 very important specification.

25 You need to know the data rate that you

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1 need to output data. So you're communicating both

2 with, you know, NFC and with Bluetooth, and that

3 data rate in the communications is an important

4 thing because that takes energy, depending on how

5 much data you transmit.

6 You need to know if you're going to use

7 encryption or not, because that also consumes energy

8 while you encrypt your data to go back and forth.

9 You need to know the states of the device.

10 It gets very complicated, but if you read the

11 patent, there's multiple states of the device. So

12 you have a sleep state and you have kind of a beacon

13 state and you have a wide awake state, and you need

14 to know how often they're going to be in those

15 states, because they have different energy

16 requirements. They, basically, consume different

17 amounts of energy over time, and so that also puts a

18 requirement on your battery depending on how you

19 want to run those states.

20 You need to know your signaling and --

21 because you are moving data probably in packets, so

22 you need to have some sort of error correction and

23 you need to know how much -- how much you need to do

24 on that.

25 You need to know the latency. That's a

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1 very important thing we design with, which is how

2 much do you need to wait between when the device

3 actually says something and gets a response or how

4 long you need to wait between somebody says "Wake

5 up, device," and the device wakes up.

6 These are, you know, kind of normal

7 things.

8 And then, as I said, you know, for range

9 and such, you need to know the design and how well

10 you can, you know, stop interferers, who can scrub

11 your RF, and so you need to know something about

12 your RF design and how much power you need to put in

13 there to make the transmitter work.

14 These are -- there's numerous things.

15 And, of course, there's the memory size

16 and how much data you want to put on the memory and

17 that kind of thing, and the program size and how

18 much data you need to put in a program.

19 And it just keeps going on and on. So you

20 have a fair number of considerations and you have to

21 kind of go forward.

22 Q. Now, in performing your enablement

23 analysis in this case, in conceptualizing the

24 inherent limit that you mentioned, what design did

25 you consider for purposes of all these

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1 considerations that you just articulated?

2 MR. MEDINA: Objection.

3 A. Oh, I -- I mean, I -- say that question

4 again. What design?

5 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

6 Q. Sure. So let me try to break it down.

7 You just mentioned a number of factors

8 that affect where the inherent limit for a

9 particular design might lie, right?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And for a different design, those factors

12 would be different and, therefore, the inherent

13 limit might lie in a different place, correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So in applying this principle for purposes

16 of your enablement opinions, how did you take into

17 account all these considerations? What design did

18 you have in mind --

19 MR. MEDINA: Objection.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. -- in conceptualizing the inherent limit?

22 MR. MEDINA: Sorry. Objection. Compound

23 and vague.

24 A. Well, I mean, I kind of started with --

25 it's easy to start with an existing design, so I

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1 started with the design specification and then I,

2 you know, looked at, you know, what you could do,

3 particularly with the antennas, to shrink them.

4 The other elements are -- except for the

5 battery are a bit less critical in terms of

6 shrinking. The battery is really a difficult one.

7 You have to have sufficient battery to make the

8 things usable.

9 So it's actually, you know -- I would -- I

10 would say that I haven't really gone through all the

11 elements one by one -- and I've said that before, I

12 have not calculated the inherent limit -- but I

13 would have to go through that and my understanding

14 of processors and, you know, RF antennas and power

15 amplifiers and memory and sizes and stuff and I

16 could work that out.

17 But, clearly, there are a lot of factors

18 that go into this inherent limit. It's not just

19 antenna size.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Have you undertaken any analysis to figure

22 out what the inherent limit would be for the use

23 case in Carnival's commercial embodiment of their

24 '514 patent?

25 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

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1 A. I have not performed an inherent limit

2 analysis on Carnival's use case of the -- of any

3 Carnival device.

4 VIDEOGRAPHER: Pardon me. Doctor, could

5 you tilt your camera down one more time?

6 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'm slinking.

7 VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.

8 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

9 Q. Have you undertaken any analysis to

10 determine what an inherent limit would be for the

11 use case in the accused products?

12 A. As I've mentioned before, I have not

13 seen -- or maybe I briefly looked at it, but I

14 really have not examined the accused products, nor

15 have I examined physically or the paperwork for

16 the -- the documents for the accused product. So,

17 no, I have no idea what the inherent limit is there.

18 Q. Is it possible that the accused devices

19 have a use case that requires a much smaller size

20 than the inherent limit of Carnival's embodiment,

21 for example?

22 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Calls for

23 speculation.

24 A. Since I have no idea what the use case for

25 the accused product is, I can't guess whether that's

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1 possible or not. I have no idea.

2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

3 Q. Okay. If you go back to paragraph 19 of

4 your declaration.

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. The test for enablement, sir, is whether

7 the specification enables one of skill in the art to

8 approach the inherent limit, correct?

9 A. Yeah, I say that the inherent limit is not

10 precisely known, upper or lower limit, and the

11 specification enables one of skill in the art to

12 approach that inherent limit.

13 Q. So to be enabled, the specification has to

14 allow a person of ordinary skill in the art to

15 approach the inherent limit wherever it may be;

16 fair?

17 A. Well, I wouldn't add the "wherever it may

18 be," but I would just say it allows one of skill in

19 the art to approach that limit. I don't know where

20 it's going to be.

21 Q. I guess what I'm struggling with is if the

22 inherent limit is defined by the use case based on

23 all of the information you set forth -- well, strike

24 that.

25 I think we established before the inherent

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1 limit might be in different places based on all the

2 considerations that you articulated already in the

3 deposition, right?

4 A. Yeah, for a different use case, you may

5 have a different inherent limit.

6 Q. So how do we know whether this claim is

7 enabled? Does the enablement inquiry turn on the

8 use case?

9 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Compound. Calls

10 for legal conclusion.

11 A. This one I guess I'm going to have to

12 refer to the judge and you guys, the lawyers. I --

13 you got me there. That's beyond my knowledge. But

14 this is my understanding of what enablement is.

15 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

16 Q. Okay. If you can turn to paragraph 36 of

17 your declaration.

18 In paragraph 36, you're discussing the

19 chip antennas that are discussed in the NXP Antenna

20 Guide that Dr. Tentzeris --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- relies on and on the next page where it

23 carries over.

24 A. Yeah. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. You make the point that the NXP BLE

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1 Antenna Guide discloses a BLE antenna just

2 0.0787 inches long in its shortest dimension, which

3 is 15 times smaller than Dr. Tentzeris claimed was

4 possible.

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. That dimension that you are identifying is

8 the size of just the antenna, correct?

9 A. Yes, it is the chip size.

10 Q. And the chip size is smaller than the PCB

11 board on which the chip must be attached in order to

12 operate, correct?

13 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Lacks foundation.

14 A. Yes, there is a pattern that the chip

15 antenna is attached to on the PCB board, sometimes

16 with extra elements, depending on the supplier, and

17 that pattern is bigger than that minimum chip.

18 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

19 Q. And you agree that an antenna in a chip

20 can't be configured for BLE communications until

21 it's mounted on that board, correct?

22 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

23 A. I will say you have to mount a chip

24 antenna properly on a board in order for it to work.

25

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1 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

2 Q. So whatever size is going to be necessary

3 of the portable wireless device to accommodate this

4 antenna is going to be something larger than the

5 0.0787 inches that you identify in paragraph 36,

6 correct?

7 A. Yes. I was comparing antennas to

8 antennas, but there is a little feed that you have

9 to add to that antenna.

10 Q. In paragraph 39, you are discussing the

11 Texas Instruments Antenna Guide that Dr. Tentzeris

12 relies upon.

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you mentioned the idea of a ferrite

16 sheet?

17 A. Yes. That is mentioned inside the guide.

18 Q. What is a ferrite sheet?

19 A. It's a sheet of ferrite material,

20 basically, an iron sort of compound material.

21 Q. And how does a ferrite sheet allow you to

22 reduce the thickness of a portable wireless device?

23 A. Well, it contains the magnetic field,

24 depending on how you align it with the antenna. So

25 if you can contain the magnetic field, then you

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1 don't have to space the antenna 10 millimeters away

2 from other sources of metal. You can put it closer

3 to other metal.

4 Q. In your work in this field, have you ever

5 implemented a ferrite sheet?

6 A. No, I have not done a ferrite sheet. I've

7 done other mitigation strategies, but not a ferrite

8 sheet.

9 Q. Do you mention any of those mitigation

10 strategies in your declaration?

11 A. No, but they are mentioned in the patent

12 itself.

13 Q. What do you have in mind, sir?

14 A. Inside the patent on Column 11 and Column

15 12, there are methods of eliminating eddy currents

16 in the container for the pendant that holds this

17 device. And that talks about breaking -- basically,

18 breaking the path on the metal surrounding the

19 NCF -- NFC antenna.

20 And breaking that metal path eliminates

21 currents and strengthens the magnetic field and

22 makes it communicate better. And they show how to

23 insert plastic inserts into the sides and break so

24 it's not continuous metal. And they mention and

25 describe it all over Column 11 and Column 12, and I

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1 have had experience doing that kind of thing to

2 break a magnetic field in my IC designs, magnetic

3 field generating currents and losing energy.

4 Q. How does the technique in Column 11 and

5 Column 12 of the '514 patent affect the size of the

6 portable wireless device of Claim 11?

7 A. Well, I think it allows you to house the

8 NFC antenna inside that small housing, the 2.5-inch

9 housing, without including a 10-millimeter

10 separation between the side of the housing and the

11 NFC antenna itself. So I think it really allows you

12 to collapse that thing.

13 If you didn't have that break in the metal

14 or you didn't use a plastic -- or do something to

15 break currents created by the NFC field in the metal

16 case, then you would have to make a much larger

17 housing.

18 Q. You're talking about the diameter

19 dimension, correct?

20 A. Yeah, the -- yeah, but it's 2.5 in each

21 dimension, right? So you have to make that bigger.

22 The watch -- I have to show you on the patent, but,

23 basically, things would have to be bigger to

24 separate the metal from the NFC antenna. So I think

25 that's a technique they use in the patent.

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1 Q. To allow for the shrinkage in the --

2 A. NFC.

3 Q. -- diameter?

4 A. Yeah, and put the NFC much closer to a

5 piece of metal.

6 Q. Okay. Any other techniques?

7 A. Well, those are the two that I know of

8 right now. I haven't researched this.

9 Q. Okay. Focusing on what's in your

10 declaration, you mention that for the ferrite sheet

11 how -- this is on the carryover portion of paragraph

12 39 on the next page -- you mention how "the antenna

13 must be measured for inductance and tuned when

14 placed within the final enclosure, including the

15 ferrite sheet, so that the tuning circuit can

16 account for the changes to the coil inductance

17 caused by the metal and the ferrite sheet."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What's being described there?

21 A. Okay. So if you design an antenna -- and

22 these are very well-known design techniques and you

23 can use simulators, so it's very controlled.

24 But this particular NFC antenna is

25 designed at low frequency, and because it's a

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1 near-field antenna, you have to put another

2 basically identical antenna near it to communicate.

3 And they run at kilohertz.

4 But when you put something in there that's

5 metal that's near it to contain the field so that it

6 doesn't go and dissipate on, say, the case, what you

7 are doing is you are changing the inductance of that

8 coil, because the physical presence of the ferrite

9 will change that inductance.

10 So, therefore, you will have to go and get

11 which -- its frequency will change, and so you have

12 to fix -- you have to work with that and fix it.

13 But this can be done. I mean, you do it.

14 You measure it. You tweak it. You may have to go

15 in there with a Dremel tool and fix it and then

16 you're done. You know, you play with it a little

17 bit. But this is part of engineering.

18 Q. Okay. Does the Carnival device use a

19 ferrite sheet?

20 A. No. It uses -- again, the one that is in

21 the specification -- and I don't know if that's

22 what's manufactured -- but the one in the

23 specification -- the one embodiment in the

24 specification, it uses the break in the metal case

25 to basically get rid of those eddy currents so it

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1 doesn't dissipate the energy of the NFC antenna.

2 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

3 A. Now, there's also -- when you say

4 dissipate the energy of the NFC antenna, there's a

5 question of how much do you need. You may be able

6 to have an NFC antenna that broadcasts not all of

7 its energy, but half of its energy, and still be

8 successful if you don't have to broadcast very far.

9 So there's a trade-off here, again, going

10 back and forth on what do you need. There's no

11 absolute; it really goes down to how much is needed

12 for the use case.

13 Q. Do you know how Carnival mitigates

14 interference between the NFC antenna and the BLE

15 antenna in its portable wireless device?

16 MR. MEDINA: Lacks foundation.

17 A. I'm going to have to look at the stack of

18 that device again. I have to remember the

19 configuration.

20 I know I've looked carefully at the

21 J antenna that they use on the Carnival, the device,

22 and that is -- that comes in and winds around. I

23 don't know if that's -- I don't know what antenna

24 they use in the real devices, but in the

25 specification, that one is -- basically, it uses an

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1 air dielectric and just wraps around as a J inside

2 the container.

3 I forget where it's placed relative to the

4 NFC antenna, but I think it's above. And so I think

5 it has -- it just broadcasts and has a ground plane

6 below it. It has both a metal ground on top and

7 bottom, so that's how it doesn't have the NFC

8 interfere with it.

9 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

10 Q. Okay. In paragraph 41, you address

11 Dr. Tentzeris's opinions regarding the level at

12 which further miniaturization would require undue

13 experimentation, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you disagree with his opinions and you

16 say on the next page, "A POSITA could have readily

17 shrunk either dimension without committing undue

18 time or resources."

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What factors did you consider in rendering

22 that opinion?

23 A. Well, I don't want to -- you know,

24 Dr. Tentzeris is an antenna designer and he designed

25 a very nice BLE antenna which he, I guess -- he

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1 didn't give me the specifications in terms of gain

2 in resonance, but I assume it's a pretty good,

3 efficient antenna.

4 If you are willing to give up a little

5 efficiency, that's one thing you can do. You can

6 just make it smaller, you know, a little bit smaller

7 or, you know, 10 or 20 percent smaller and make sure

8 it resonates at the right frequency and you can get

9 an antenna that's not as efficient, but will do some

10 job, and it may do the job if you don't need to

11 broadcast that far.

12 So I think that -- you know, I think that

13 Dr. Tentzeris built an optimal antenna, but you

14 don't have to. A POSITA would understand that, you

15 know, you just have to get the job done sometimes

16 and just shorten it.

17 The other thing you can do, as I mentioned

18 before, is I looked at -- after doing this and

19 actually remembering, because I've had a lot of

20 experience; I work with antenna designers -- and

21 there's an antenna called a PIFA, P-I-F-A. It's a

22 planar inverted-F antenna.

23 And that antenna, you put a -- it has a

24 configuration -- you can look it up -- where you put

25 a metal on a substrate and you put something under

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1 the substrate, and you can use a substrate that has

2 a nondielectric of 1, so you can use a

3 higher-permittivity substrate. That means that the

4 wavelength shrinks with the square of the

5 permittivity. So if I use something like a circuit

6 board, I may be able to get a wavelength that's half

7 as much or a quarter as much, depending on what

8 circuit board I use. And so that's another way you

9 could shrink it.

10 I think that Dr. Tentzeris wanted to make

11 an air antenna, but I can see other ways -- other

12 types of antennas that you could put in there. And

13 these are in the literature.

14 So I think that's where I'm coming from,

15 that you can sacrifice performance of the antenna or

16 you can try alternate designs that are actually in

17 the literature or you can try a chip antenna.

18 There's lots of ways you can try to skin this thing.

19 And PIFA antennas are now widely used in

20 cell phones, by the way.

21 Q. The PIFA antenna opinion that you just

22 provided me, that was the opinion that you hadn't

23 thought of or considered before you submitted your

24 declaration on November 19, right?

25 A. No, I had -- I worked on -- ten hours on

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1 that declaration and then I remembered -- well, I'm

2 a -- I was doing a lot of antenna testing. I was

3 working with another antenna designer, who was

4 making the antennas and we were doing some fun stuff

5 with tuning antennas.

6 And then she said, "Oh, yeah, I published

7 some papers on PIFAs," so I kind of remembered that.

8 That was from ten years ago. I don't remember

9 everything immediately.

10 Q. Okay. And what factors did you apply in

11 considering whether or not these alternative designs

12 would require undue time or resources?

13 A. Well, if I could find it in the

14 literature, it doesn't require undue time. So, you

15 know, you take a look and it says, "This is how to

16 design it" on Antenna Designer, and you just

17 experiment with it a little bit and you can put it

18 on a substrate and try it. So that's me.

19 Also, you can buy these circuit boards

20 and, you know, stuff like that and you can basically

21 pattern them or etch them or whatever you want and

22 try out different designs and see what works. It's

23 certainly there. The engineering tools and the

24 engineering resources are there to play with these.

25 Q. So just so I understand your expert

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1 methodology, in considering whether or not a design

2 would require undue time or resources, the only

3 thing you looked to is whether or not it was in the

4 literature; is that right?

5 A. I looked to -- okay. So I expect an

6 inventor to put in a lot of time and resources.

7 Okay? They do a lot of experimentation.

8 But I expect, yes, a POSITA to have the

9 basic knowledge of -- that they would gain in my

10 courses and maybe a graduate course or two or a

11 bunch of experience working in wireless, and I would

12 expect them to be able to understand simple designs

13 in the literature and be able to kind of work a

14 couple of equations and build something from that.

15 I'm not expecting them to do major, like,

16 million-element antennas, but, you know, some stuff

17 that's in the literature, or be able to buy stuff

18 and use it with application notes. So I expect them

19 to be able to do both.

20 Q. Do you have any opinion as to how far down

21 these alternative antenna designs you mentioned

22 could be shrunk before undue time and resources

23 would be required?

24 A. I actually haven't determined that. I

25 know that a factor of three or four would be

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1 fairly -- you know, two to four could be fairly

2 straightforward with the PIFA antenna design, if you

3 can realize it.

4 But, you know, I haven't thought about

5 that because that becomes -- you know, that becomes

6 something where I need to study and think about it.

7 It becomes a materials issue, what kind of

8 substrates can I get with metal on them and how can

9 I pattern them and how high a dielectric can I get.

10 And that gets kind of crazy if you go too small.

11 So -- and then there's other things you can do.

12 So, you know, right off the bat, I don't

13 think a shrinkage of two or four is tough on a

14 quarter wavelength antenna, but -- I think that you

15 can go further, but I don't know how much further

16 you can go and I have not done the analysis to look

17 at that.

18 Q. But you don't doubt that there is a

19 threshold at which further miniaturization would

20 require undue time and resources, correct?

21 A. I -- when it comes to miniaturization,

22 there's another issue that we don't talk about

23 enough in engineering, which is replication. So

24 it's not just making one of the things that is

25 tough; it's making millions, right, where you make

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1 money.

2 And so this is not -- the

3 commercialization is not a patent, but the reality

4 of it is that, ultimately, you want to make money.

5 And so there are tolerances and you can get things

6 really small, but the cost goes way up in actually

7 achieving that and it becomes impractical.

8 Those tend to be as important as a lot of

9 other factors. I can't make it this small without

10 paying $10,000 a unit or something like that or

11 $1,000 a unit, and that's not acceptable. So that's

12 another consideration. It's a manufacturing

13 tolerance. Not that I can make something one size,

14 but can I make it and it not be shifting in size by

15 20 or 30 percent or even 2 percent, because I've got

16 to have a frequency. So that's another issue that I

17 have to worry about.

18 So it's complicated, and that's why I said

19 I have not done the analysis. It would take me some

20 analysis before I could come up with what would be

21 an inherent limit that I would actually use in a

22 device like this.

23 Q. Okay. And is there a point at which you

24 shrink the device so far that any further shrinkage

25 is going to require an undue amount of time and

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1 experimentation in order to even accomplish one

2 unit?

3 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague. Calls for

4 a legal conclusion.

5 A. Well, I know, of course, the trivial point

6 where you have zero size, of course. That's the

7 point.

8 I don't know. I would have to study that

9 and then try that for that particular type of

10 antenna, and then I could tell you what that point

11 would be. But I haven't looked that over. It would

12 take some time and energy to do so and I have not

13 been asked to do that.

14 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. MEDINA: Are you planning to go all

17 the way to the rest of the time, Patrick, or

18 are you going to -- because we're a little over

19 3 -- I guess 6:00 on the East Coast.

20 MR. SCHMIDT: Yeah, I'm getting close,

21 so --

22 MR. MEDINA: Okay. That's fine.

23 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

24 Q. Okay. Further on in this paragraph, you

25 talk about Dr. Tentzeris's opinions regarding

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1 capacitance and reactance loading.

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Do you see that?

4 A. Yeah, let me see where I do that.

5 Oh, there it is. In the same paragraph?

6 Q. Yeah. It's in paragraph 41, but it's on

7 the carryover page and it's --

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. -- the third one down.

10 A. Okay. So do you have a question?

11 Q. Yeah.

12 One of the things Dr. Tentzeris points out

13 is that introducing capacitance or reactance loading

14 results, or can result, in the detuning of the

15 antenna.

16 Do you agree with that statement?

17 A. I would say that, yeah, capacitance and

18 reactance loading can detune the antenna or also

19 tune the antenna, depending on how you do it. I've

20 had some experience with capacitance and reactance

21 loading.

22 Q. And how do you overcome that detuning

23 problem if you use capacitance or reactance loading?

24 A. Well, I just helped somebody with a chip

25 antenna, and it -- circuit demanded that I put in a

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1 capacitance to get a certain frequency. So we put

2 it on an instrument, measured the resonance

3 frequency, it wasn't right, then you send it out to

4 the technician and they put another little

5 capacitance on there and it's a little bit better,

6 and then you put another one and it's better and you

7 get it. So the answer is I measure the antenna and

8 I throw a little chip in, some capacitance on there,

9 and I tune it.

10 Now, if you try to make the antenna too

11 short -- that's, I think, what he's saying here --

12 yeah, you can detune it in the sense that it no

13 longer resonates with -- it no longer has such a

14 nice selectivity in the resonance. So that means

15 that the frequency at which it can take signal is

16 broader.

17 But you may be able to -- you know,

18 that's, again, a specification, what tolerance can

19 you take with that. And, you know, this is all

20 about antenna techniques.

21 But I think, you know, if you got a plan

22 and you know what's going on and you got some

23 technical document, you can see. And you put a --

24 basically, kind of something like a network analyzer

25 or you put a spectrum analyzer on it, you can do

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1 this real-time and just play with antennas. It's

2 not -- it's simple experimentation.

3 Q. Are you familiar with introducing a

4 matching network?

5 A. Absolutely. I've done automated matching

6 networks. I teach matching networks.

7 And, again, this is one of those things

8 that you would like your POSITA to have an RF

9 course. We have undergraduate RF courses which our

10 POSITAs could take and then they can do matching, or

11 we have graduate-level courses that they can do

12 matching. But you need to take a little bit of an

13 S-parameter course or microwave course, RF course,

14 and you can do matching.

15 Q. Is it your opinion that implementing a

16 matching network for a Bluetooth low-energy antenna

17 is within the ordinary skill of one ordinarily

18 skilled in the art?

19 A. Well, if you -- I certainly think that if

20 somebody goes to NXP or a vendor that sells these

21 chip antennas, they will tell them what matching

22 network to put on there.

23 And so I think that's definitely -- you

24 know, you put this pattern down and you put the

25 antenna and you -- with the chip there, and you, you

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1 know, put this capacitor 3 millimeters away and

2 you're done. And so that, I think, is within the

3 scope of a POSITA.

4 If you're going to develop your own

5 antenna from scratch, then you are going to have

6 more fun. That's going to -- you need to get on

7 simulation tools.

8 I think that somebody with some

9 experience, you know, a more experienced person,

10 electrical engineering with RF course, can do it.

11 So it's a question of which POSITA you have. We

12 have a lot of lists of possible POSITAs there, I

13 mean, in the sense you have electrical engineer,

14 computer engineer, so on and so forth. But I think

15 one of the POSITAs that's mentioned could do this --

16 one of the POSITA backgrounds that's mentioned could

17 do this. And I think that most of them could do it

18 if they had the spec sheet and understood how to

19 design a board, which they would in our program.

20 Q. So I want to ask a really clear question

21 now, sir: Is it your opinion that a person of

22 ordinary skill in the art, as you apply that

23 definition through your declaration, is it your

24 opinion that such a person could implement a

25 matching network to shrink a 2.4-gigahertz antenna

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1 down below the dimensions that are state of the art

2 as of the time of the '514 patent?

3 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

4 A. By "state of the art," do you mean the

5 best you can buy? Is that right? So best

6 available?

7 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

8 Q. Correct.

9 A. Okay. So I'm thinking about this

10 seriously. Can you say the question again?

11 Q. Right. The situation is we're at the time

12 of the '514 patent --

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. -- 2016.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. You are a person of ordinary skill in the

17 art --

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. -- and you want to implement a matching

20 network in order to shrink a 2.4-gigahertz antenna

21 below what would otherwise be available in the art

22 at that time.

23 MR. MEDINA: Objection.

24 A. Okay. So if you are talking about

25 shrinking an antenna smaller than, say, some of the

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1 chip antennas that I've -- which I consider state of

2 the art at that time, I don't think they could do

3 it.

4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

5 Q. In fact, in your academic papers, you have

6 written that implementing a matching network for

7 this frequency of an antenna can be, quote,

8 challenging, right?

9 A. It depends on the antenna. That's a case

10 by case. But I forget -- it probably was an antenna

11 that was pretty interesting. I would have to see

12 the paper.

13 Q. Okay. Why don't we take a look at it.

14 MR. SCHMIDT: I've marked for

15 identification as Exhibit 3 the next exhibit.

16 Let me know when you can see it in the

17 ExhibitShare, sir.

18 (Thereupon, marked as Exhibit 3.)

19 A. Okay. Okay. I remember this paper. This

20 was written a number of years ago.

21 Okay. So the context of this paper is the

22 split-ring resonator, which is a complicated

23 antenna, which I would not expect anybody to be able

24 to do who is not an antenna designer, and the

25 Varactor diodes there are also at capacitance that

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1 you don't know.

2 So, yes, this particular antenna is quite

3 interesting. It's not a simple one. It's got

4 capacitors, basically, that are tunable with voltage

5 and it's got those rings that interact with each

6 other in a complicated way. This matching is kind

7 of interesting. I'm thinking more along the lines

8 of a single piece of stripline antenna.

9 But I think, as I answered you before, can

10 they beat the state of the art, you know, with a

11 chip antenna? No, but the chip antenna will tell

12 them what to do.

13 Can they match the PIFA antenna? You may

14 not have to if you don't want to shorten it. It can

15 be fed without a matching network. But if you want

16 to shorten it, it could be interesting. There are

17 equations to do it.

18 But nothing like -- this is a complicated

19 antenna.

20 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

21 Q. Well, let's take a look at the

22 introduction of this paper where you make some

23 general statements.

24 Do you see the first sentence in the

25 introduction reads, "One challenge in the design of

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1 an adaptive software defined match control circuits

2 at low RF frequencies is miniaturization."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. And then skip a sentence. In the third

6 sentence, you say, "Miniaturization is natural at

7 shorter wavelengths (in the millimeter wave bands),

8 yet quite difficult at low . . . frequencies (1-2

9 gigahertz)."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yep.

12 Q. Millimeter wave bands are wave bands in

13 the 30- to 300-gigahertz range, approximately,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's about 10 to 100 times shorter

17 wavelength than the 2.4-gigahertz band used by

18 Bluetooth low energy, correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And you say expressly right here in your

21 paper that miniaturization is quite difficult at low

22 RF frequencies, 1 to 2 --

23 A. No. I actually say the design of an

24 adaptive software match control, SMDC [sic], is

25 hard. That's a very special match system. That

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1 system dynamically matches a circuit.

2 So the antenna -- the problem we had with

3 this paper was we take an antenna and you put it on

4 a desktop and it's metal, would it become unmatched.

5 Or you take your iPhone at the time and you put your

6 finger on the bottom of the iPhone and it would

7 detune and it couldn't work. People had to keep

8 their finger off certain places on the iPhone.

9 There was one model that did that.

10 So this system allowed you to rematch the

11 antenna automatically, and that system is --

12 defining adaptive match control system, which

13 changes your match when your environment changes, is

14 very difficult. We did it.

15 But if you are willing to accept a

16 constant match where you are not trying to change

17 the match -- change the Ls and C element values that

18 are in the match, that's a hell of a lot easier than

19 this.

20 So that's -- basically, the difference is

21 that this is with variable components in the match

22 that are controlled by a computer and the normal

23 match is just fastened down to capacitors and

24 inductors.

25 Q. In paragraph 41 of your declaration, you

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1 write, "Learning how to match and tune an antenna

2 using those techniques is a skill regularly used by

3 practical RF engineers, and well within the

4 capabilities of a POSITA."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yeah. Where am I? 41. Yeah.

7 Q. How is the matching that you are referring

8 to in paragraph 41 different from the matching that

9 you wrote in your academic paper that is quite

10 difficult at low RF frequencies?

11 A. Well, this matching is taking an antenna

12 and -- a simple antenna and soldering down an L and

13 a C and doing the match.

14 The other article is about making a

15 computer system that measures the antenna itself,

16 looks at -- I'm going to use technical terms -- the

17 impedance of the antenna, and then changes the match

18 to adapt that impedance.

19 So when I have an antenna that gets near

20 metal or something, it's supposed to be at what we

21 call 50 ohms, which is kind of a magic impedance for

22 RF systems.

23 When you detune it by putting it, again,

24 near metal, it could be 40 ohms or 30 ohms. Our

25 system automatically detected that change and then

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1 readjusted the matching networks with a computer to

2 do that.

3 So it's a different system. It's a system

4 where your matching elements change depending upon

5 the response of the antenna, whereas this system

6 here I'm talking about is you put a metal line and

7 you solder down two components, they match, and then

8 you just let it go. You don't try to constantly

9 change it. You don't have a computer, you are not

10 measuring the antenna characteristic, you're just

11 using the antenna. That's much simpler.

12 Q. This paper was written in 2010, Exhibit 3,

13 correct?

14 A. Okay, okay.

15 Q. I'm asking. Is that right?

16 A. It's probably about that time frame.

17 Let's take a look at the -- it says November 20 --

18 oh, that's when you took it out of there.

19 It's got citations from 2007, so it could

20 be 2010. That would be around the time frame.

21 Sometime after 2007. 2008, 2009, 2010, something

22 like that.

23 Q. Has the state of the art regarding

24 miniaturization of antennas at low RF frequencies

25 changed appreciably between 2010 and the priority

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1 date of these patents, 2016?

2 MR. MEDINA: Objection. Vague.

3 A. I really haven't -- well, let me put it

4 this way: This work was with antennas provided by

5 my collaborator, and so we looked at interesting

6 research antennas, we did not look at

7 state-of-the-art miniaturized antennas. So I have

8 not surveyed the field for state-of-the-art antennas

9 at that time in whatever it is, 2008, 2009, nor have

10 I surveyed the field for what the state-of-the-art

11 antennas are in 2016.

12 I do remember some devices, I think, with

13 chip antennas that date back several years, many

14 years, but I don't remember exactly when they came

15 out.

16 So without some research, I can't answer

17 you, basically. I just don't have that off the top

18 of my head.

19 BY MR. SCHMIDT:

20 Q. Thank you.

21 What's the level of skill of the coauthors

22 that are on this paper with you?

23 A. Hyunjin Park is probably a Ph.D. Kathy

24 Melde is an IEEE fellow Ph.D. professor and dean at

25 University of Arizona now. She's really very

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1 skilled. And there's me.

2 Q. Okay. So yourself and the two other

3 authors of this paper are all individuals that

4 exceed the level of ordinary skill in the art as of

5 the filing of the patent at issue, correct?

6 A. Yeah, absolutely. When you have a --

7 split-ring resonators and RF matching, automatic

8 RF -- adaptive RF matching circuits, that's not what

9 I expect a POSITA to be able to do.

10 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. Why don't we take a

11 really short break, like three to four minutes,

12 just so I can check my notes, and then we'll

13 come back. And if I have any more questions,

14 I'll ask, but otherwise we'll wrap up.

15 MR. MEDINA: All right. 6:30?

16 THE WITNESS: Sure.

17 MR. SCHMIDT: Yeah, sounds good.

18 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We're off the

19 record. It's 6:26 p.m.

20 (Recess was held from 6:26 p.m. until 6:34 p.m.)

21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at

22 6:34 p.m.

23 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. Doctor, I want to

24 thank you for your time today. I have no

25 further questions. I will pass the witness.

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1 MR. MEDINA: I have no questions.

2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay to go off the record?

3 MR. SCHMIDT: Off the record.

4 VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.

5 We're off the record at 6:34 p.m.

6 (The deposition concluded at 6:34 p.m.)

7

8

9

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1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH

2

3

4

5

6 I, the undersigned authority, certify

7

8 that WILLIAM EISENSTADT, Ph.D. appeared remotely

9

10 before me and was sworn on the 16th day of

11

12 December, 2021.

13

14 Signed this 22nd day of December, 2021.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21 <%3190,Signature%>

22 KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR

23 Notary Public, State of Colorado

24 My Commission No. 20214007135

25 Expires: 2/23/2025

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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

2

3 STATE OF COLORADO

4

5 I, KIMBERLY FONTALVO, Registered

6 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that I

7 was authorized to and did stenographically report

8 the foregoing remote videotaped deposition of

9 WILLIAM EISENSTADT, Ph.D.; that a review of the

10 transcript was requested; and that the transcript

11 is a true record of my stenographic notes.

12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a

13 relative, employee, attorney, or counsel of any

14 of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee

15 of any of the parties' attorneys or counsel

16

17 connected with the action, nor am I financially

18

19 interested in the action.

20

21 Dated this 22nd day of December, 2021.

22

23

24 <%3190,Signature%>

25 KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR, CLR

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1 December 22, 2021

2 William Eisenstadt, Ph.D. c/o David Medina, Esq.

 davidmedina@orrick.com

3

4 Re: Decurtis vs. Carnival

5 Please take notice that on the 16th day of December,

 2021, you gave your deposition in the above cause.

6 At that time, you did not waive your signature.

7 The above-addressed attorney has ordered a copy of

 this transcript and will make arrangements with you

8 to read their copy. Please execute the Errata

 Sheet, which can be found at the back of the

9 transcript, and have it returned to us for

 distribution to all parties.

10

 If you do not read and sign the deposition within

11 thirty (30) days, the original, which has already

 been forwarded to the ordering attorney, may be

12 filed with the Clerk of the Court.

13 If you wish to waive your signature now, please sign

14 your name in the blank at the bottom of this letter

15 and return to the address listed below.

16

17 Very truly yours,

18

19

20 KIMBERLY FONTALVO, RPR, CLR

21

22 I do hereby waive my signature.

23

24 _______________________________

25 WILLIAM EISENSTADT, Ph.D.

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1 ERRATA SHEET

2 DO NOT WRITE ON TRANSCRIPT - ENTER CHANGES HERE

3 In Re: DECURTIS VS. CARNIVAL

 WILLIAM EISENSTADT, Ph.D.

4

5 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON

6 ____________________________________________________

7 ____________________________________________________

8 ____________________________________________________

9 ____________________________________________________

10 ____________________________________________________

11 ____________________________________________________

12 ____________________________________________________

13 ____________________________________________________

14 ____________________________________________________

15 ____________________________________________________

16 ____________________________________________________

17 ____________________________________________________

18 ____________________________________________________

19 ____________________________________________________

20 Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have

 read the foregoing document and that the facts

21 stated in it are true.

22

23 ____________ __________________________

24

25 Date WILLIAM EISENSTADT, Ph.D.

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&

& 2:3,10 4:13,16

0

0.0787 86:2 87:5

1

1 3:13 8:19,20,23

9:4,5,11,14,17

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1,000 99:11

1-2 108:8

10 88:1 89:9 94:7

108:16

10,000 99:10

100 108:16

10017 2:4

106 3:18

10th 2:4

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115 3:7

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117 3:8

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12 7:10,19 88:15

88:25 89:5

15 26:22 27:1

35:12 86:3

16 1:19 3:16 4:2

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19 7:15,19 9:15

25:25 26:15 43:25

44:3 48:9 84:3

95:24

1:20 1:3,4

2

2 3:16 16:4,7,10,14

16:16,22,24 20:6

56:16 99:15

108:22

2.4 104:25 105:20

108:17

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59:3,13,20 60:16

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2/23/2025 115:25

20 74:9 94:7 99:15

111:17

2007 111:19,21

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2009 111:21 112:9

2010 111:12,20,21

111:25

2016 105:14 112:1

112:11

2021 1:19 4:3 9:15

115:12,14 116:21

117:1,5

20214007135

115:24

21547 1:4

22 117:1

22945 1:3

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116:21

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24 50:3,4 69:18

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55:3,18

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65:14

3

3 3:18 100:19

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111:12

30 14:16 17:21

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74:24 99:15

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117:11

300 75:21 108:13

3190 115:21

116:24

3200 2:11

32606 5:13

36 85:16,18 87:5

39 21:19 87:10

90:12

3:06 1:19 4:2

4

40 21:11 56:16

110:24

41 93:10 101:6

109:25 110:6,8

4315 5:12

4:07 43:19,20

4:18 43:20,22

5

5 3:3 75:24

5/8 56:2,22 60:16

50 110:21

514 30:16,25 31:20

32:6,9 36:19

44:10 45:10,25

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62:22 63:1,8,13,21

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72:9 77:16 82:24

89:5 105:2,12

541 6:8

5:08 69:12,13

5:20 69:13,15

6

6:00 100:19

6:26 113:19,20

6:30 113:15

6:34 1:19 113:20

113:22 114:5,6

7

75th 5:13

777 2:11

8

8 3:13

865 2:4

9

9 20:13,14,15,21

21:8 22:1,8,10

90017 2:4,11

a

ability 65:16 71:16

able 7:17 12:21

13:9 17:25 21:5

33:4,21 47:20

[& - able]

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52:7 68:12 73:19

92:5 95:6 97:12

97:13,17,19

102:17 106:23

113:9

absolute 48:1 67:7

92:11

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103:5 113:6

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110:9

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99:11

access 5:18,25 6:2

24:17

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87:3

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72:4,8 81:17

90:16

accurate 17:8,9

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83:16,18,25

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116:17,19

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113:8

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87:9

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14:14

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117:15

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administrator

1:23

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76:2 81:8 89:5

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5:5

ago 17:2 58:2 96:8

106:20

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52:24 53:1,10

54:7,11,12 61:4

70:1 74:2 86:19

101:16

air 93:1 95:11

al 3:21

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87:21 90:1

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109:10

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89:7,11

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97:21

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99:25

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83:9 98:16 99:19

99:20

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102:25

analyzing 30:13

angeles 2:4

angelos 2:11

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announcement

57:25

answer 3:4,5,6 8:7

9:25,25 11:4,7,9

25:20 26:7,8,20

32:24 37:22 51:14

52:18 56:14 57:16

67:8 102:7 112:16

answered 107:9

antenna 13:16,17

15:14,19 58:1,6,15

59:2,12,19,20

60:20,22 82:19

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86:19,24 87:4,9,11

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89:8,11,24 90:12

90:21,24 91:1,2

92:1,4,6,14,15,21

92:23 93:4,24,25

94:3,9,13,20,21,22

94:23 95:11,15,17

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97:21 98:2,14

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110:1,11,12,15,17

110:19 111:5,10

111:11

antennas 13:6,16

13:23,25 14:3,8,14

14:16,17 15:16

60:18 63:15,22

82:3,14 85:19

87:7,8 95:12,19

96:4,5 97:16

103:1,21 106:1

111:24 112:4,6,7,8

112:11,13

anybody 6:19 24:6

106:23

appearances 2:1

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53:25 54:19 75:12

75:14 97:18

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104:22

applying 81:15

appreciably

111:25

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48:19 84:8,12,15

84:19

appropriately

73:8

approximate 7:17

approximately

108:13

approximation

7:21

arbitrarily 46:25

51:15 52:17

[able - arbitrarily]

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area 28:23 73:17

73:18

arizona 112:25

arrangements

117:7

art 27:5 28:2,13

29:3,14,21 35:15

48:13,18 51:24

52:6,19,25 53:4

54:13 55:6,11,19

56:6,11,14,18,23

57:18 59:11,18,24

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66:11,14,22 84:7

84:11,14,19

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105:1,4,17,21

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111:23 112:7,8,10

113:4

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85:2

articulation 9:18

10:7,22

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49:3,5,10 51:5

100:13

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52:16 53:6,23

54:5 58:20 111:15

assign 29:17

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116:13 117:7,11

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automatically

109:11 110:25

available 8:13

29:14 61:23,25

105:6,21

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62:17,22 63:2,8

awhile 51:16

63:16

b

back 9:2 20:1

39:10 43:14,21,24

50:21 53:9 69:14

69:17 70:20 79:8

84:3 92:10 112:13

113:13,21 117:8

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104:16

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78:23

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82:5,6,7

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61:5,15

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4:16

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59:23 60:9 61:9

74:13

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88:22 102:5,6

beyond 42:21

60:24 77:4 85:13

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47:23 86:17 89:21

89:23

bit 37:17 44:25

60:7 82:5 91:17

94:6 96:17 102:5

103:12

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ble 33:24 51:11

57:6,10,13,18,23

58:2,15 59:2,7,12

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86:20 92:14 93:25

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86:15,21,24 95:6,8

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117:14

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68:13,23

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113:11

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88:20

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93:5

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16:6

browsers 6:3 8:25

build 39:22 40:12

54:14,20,21,22,23

54:24 55:20 64:19

68:22 97:14

building 12:15

built 94:13

bulk 25:21

bulleted 21:8

[area - bulleted]

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bunch 97:11

buy 13:7 96:19

97:17 105:5

c

c 2:5 109:17

110:13 117:2

ca 2:4,11

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called 13:17 94:21

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23:10 26:4 27:14

28:21 36:23 39:6

40:13 42:24 43:5

49:24 52:2 58:18

67:22 70:16 75:9

76:9,21 83:22

85:9 100:3

camera 37:13 83:5

capabilities 57:10

57:18,23 59:17,23

110:4

capability 54:16

57:13 68:24

capacitance 101:1

101:13,17,20,23

102:1,5,8 106:25

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109:23

carefully 92:20

carnival 1:8,10 2:9

4:6,17 7:7 19:16

19:20 22:20 23:7

23:15,18 42:20

63:18,24 83:3

91:18 92:13,21

117:4 118:3

carnival's 3:14 7:4

21:21 82:23 83:2

83:20

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101:7

case 6:14,25 7:8

7:15 8:1,5 9:7,19

10:8,25 15:18,18

18:6,6,9,17,18,25

19:2,4,8,15 22:20

22:24 24:10,23

29:13,24 30:3,9,9

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33:7,9,10,11,21

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46:4,17,18 47:3

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53:20,22,25 54:19

57:3,19 64:6,8,14

64:16 66:16,17,23

67:3,4,12,14,14,19

68:5 69:23 72:13

72:14,19 73:25

75:3,20 76:2

77:19,25 78:3,8

80:23 82:23 83:2

83:11,19,24 84:22

85:4,8 89:16 91:6

91:24 92:12 106:9

106:10

cases 31:16 34:12

35:6,20,20 75:17

76:13 77:9,12,15

77:18

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109:8

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103:19

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116:6,12

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91:9,11 109:16,17

110:25 111:4,9

118:5

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111:25

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109:13,13 110:17

118:2

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78:23 91:7

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111:10

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14:14,16,17 15:16

15:19 85:19 86:9

86:10,11,14,17,19

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96:19 101:25

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113:8

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cite 13:19 14:13

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civ 1:3,4

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31:21 32:6,9 36:7

36:9,10,12,19,22

37:4,7,8,11,24

38:9,18,20 39:1,13

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40:10,15,16,17,19

40:20 41:3,9,14,15

41:15,19,19,25

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42:20 43:4,10,11

43:11,12 44:10

45:11,12,25 46:1,2

46:14,16,17 47:14

47:22 48:6,7 49:8

49:12,22,23 50:2,7

50:10,16 51:2

52:12 53:12,24

54:9,18 55:7,7,12

55:15,17 56:7,22

57:7,8 59:22 60:1

60:8 61:5,7,14,17

65:18,21 66:9

67:1,4,12,20,25

68:8,19 69:19,20

69:24,25 70:1,13

70:18,19,25 71:15

72:2,9 74:25 75:4

75:19 76:6 77:14

85:6 89:6

claimed 27:6 28:3

28:14 29:4 35:16

[bunch - claimed]

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35:21,25 36:3,6

39:20 86:3

claims 29:19 36:14

36:14,15 53:19

clarification 10:11

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64:21

clear 49:4 104:20

clearly 82:17

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clr 1:22 116:25

117:20

coach 40:5

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colorado 115:23

116:3

column 88:14,14

88:25,25 89:4,5

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57:21,23

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47:2 51:16 52:9

73:24 76:13 99:20

113:13

comes 27:20 75:11

76:23 92:22 98:21

coming 71:4 95:14

comment 26:5

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commercialization

99:3

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115:24

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common 13:22

46:8 56:23,25

61:7,10,18 71:19

71:19

commonly 12:2

communicate

33:23 73:7,14,19

88:22 91:2

communicating

79:1

communication

12:15 26:6,9 57:5

60:18,22 62:3

72:24 73:1

communications

8:8 9:24 11:4

60:19,23 79:3

86:20

compact 3:19

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22:18

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10:6,21 17:8,10,16

17:19

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14:7

complicated 79:10

99:18 106:22

107:6,18

components 37:8

38:9 39:1,17,23

40:12 41:19 42:11

43:12 49:13 51:2

65:18 68:20

109:21 111:7

compound 15:12

81:22 85:9 87:20

comprising 60:14

computer 5:17,20

5:24 6:1 71:21

104:14 109:22

110:15 111:1,9

conceptualizing

77:19 80:23 81:21

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28:22 36:24 39:7

40:14 42:25 43:6

49:24 52:3 58:18

67:23 70:17 75:9

76:22 85:10 100:4

configuration

92:19 94:24

configured 60:20

60:21,22 86:20

confirm 9:5,9,11

9:13

connect 33:18

connected 116:17

connection 58:6

consider 30:17,19

31:3 34:20 35:20

36:3 37:3 38:3,4

38:19 49:19 50:17

53:20,22 56:10

65:4 70:14 80:25

93:21 106:1

consideration

29:20 31:2 34:16

39:4,17 53:18

99:12

considerations

72:3,7,12,15 74:6

74:23,24 76:8

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considered 20:16

20:22,25 21:3,6

31:16 35:19 37:6

37:7,9,24,25 38:7

38:23,24 50:19

68:8,13 69:1

95:23

considering 38:18

49:13 53:24,25

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constant 109:16

constantly 111:8

constraints 38:8

54:1

constructed 41:18

construction

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construed 70:14

71:15

construes 71:9

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contact 6:19

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11:13,18 87:25

91:5

container 88:16

93:2

contains 10:21

87:23

contend 74:24

contention 22:22

22:23 23:1

contentions 22:20

context 45:9,10

64:4 65:15 68:23

74:3 106:21

continuous 88:24

contract 18:20

[claimed - contract]

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18:19

contributed 78:4,8

control 108:1,24

109:12

controlled 90:23

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conversation

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copy 6:5,7,9 117:7

117:8

corporation 1:8

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19:2

correct 6:25 7:5

7:16 9:15 10:22

10:23 11:8 13:13

17:5,6 22:12,13,16

24:3,7,23,24 25:9

27:13 28:9 36:11

36:16,17,22 38:20

41:10,25 42:5

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81:10,13,14 84:8

86:8,12,21 87:6

89:19 93:13 98:20

105:8 108:18,19

111:13 113:5

correction 79:22

cost 46:10,22 47:1

66:1 99:6

counsel 4:10 8:9

9:24 11:5 26:6,19

26:20 116:13,15

count 18:4

couple 97:14

course 5:24 8:14

12:8,11 53:19

55:16 56:1 80:15

97:10 100:5,6

103:9,13,13,13

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103:9,11

court 1:1 4:18,25

27:16 71:9,14

117:12

cover 24:15 78:12

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89:15

critical 82:5

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73:2,3 74:3,3,4,8

74:10

cruises 2:9

currently 5:14

20:7

currents 88:15,21

89:3,15 91:25

curriculum 3:16

customers 74:16

cv 16:2,11,23,25

17:1,7 19:25 20:6

d

d 3:1 5:8

d.a.b. 18:14,18

da 21:21,21,21,21

data 8:12 11:13,17

11:23 13:11 15:7

78:25 79:1,3,5,8

79:21 80:16,18

date 9:19 112:1,13

118:25

dated 116:21

david 2:12 4:15

7:12 21:13 117:2

davidmedina

117:2

day 56:15,17

75:24 115:10,14

116:21 117:5

days 117:11

deal 16:17 46:24

dean 112:24

december 1:19 4:2

115:12,14 116:21

117:1,5

decide 73:9

declaration 3:13

6:8 7:14 9:6 11:25

12:24 17:4 20:2,5

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23:9,16 25:8

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44:1 55:1 64:2

69:19 71:17,25

84:4 85:17 88:10

90:10 95:24 96:1

104:23 109:25

declare 118:20

decurtis 1:5,13,13

2:2 3:14 4:6,14

7:4 9:7 21:12

22:24 24:11,13,23

25:1,4,7,16,24

26:14 64:24 117:4

118:3

defend 10:14,17

10:20 11:1,12

defendant 1:9

19:8

defendants 1:14

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76:13

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depends 75:4

106:9

deposed 18:1

deposition 1:16

4:4 5:24 6:15 8:18

17:8 21:12,20,22

21:25 22:9 23:25

85:3 114:6 116:8

117:5,10

describe 13:15

88:25

described 11:24

12:23 34:9 38:9

43:11 90:20

describes 46:4

description 17:16

17:19

descriptions 34:1

design 3:18 12:13

21:21 30:4,12

42:10 43:9 49:18

51:8,8 52:10 55:6

55:14 56:6,15,16

56:17 64:9,18,19

[contractors - design]

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desktop 109:4

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determination

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50:24 51:1,13,15

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devices 5:19,23

12:15 24:25 25:4

34:4,10 53:2

56:10,21 57:1

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62:11,18,23 73:17

73:17 77:8,9

78:17 83:18 92:24

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diameter 89:18

90:3

dielectric 93:1

98:9

difference 41:2

74:19 109:20

different 41:10,20

45:17 52:20 53:21

54:2 64:20 71:11

74:2,4,4,5,12

75:17 76:5,7,11,13

76:13,15,16 79:15

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85:1,4,5 96:22

110:8 111:3

difficult 51:6

56:13 82:6 108:8

108:21 109:14

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dig 58:21

dimension 42:5

55:11,21 57:15

59:2,13,20 86:2,7

89:19,21 93:17

dimensional 64:25

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55:14,25 57:2

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105:1

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discuss 6:14 15:3

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dissipate 91:6 92:1

92:4

distinction 37:22

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district 1:1,1

division 1:2

dmedina 2:12

doctor 4:18,25

8:22 14:20 26:13

27:16 37:13,21

43:24 44:24 69:17

83:4 113:23

document 3:18 6:7

9:14 13:10,24

17:3 21:2,2

102:23 118:20

documents 6:3,5,9

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20:21,25 21:3,5,14

22:11 24:10,15,16

24:22 83:16

doing 12:14 64:18

74:18 75:15 89:1

91:7 94:18 96:2,4

110:13

domain 12:4

door 73:18

doubt 98:18

dr 3:13 4:4 5:5

6:12 16:21 85:20

86:3 87:11 93:11

[design - dr]

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eliminates 88:20

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emanuel 2:3 4:13

embodiment

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embodiments

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employee 21:13

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enable 36:21

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enablement 19:12

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enables 41:10

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enabling 27:10

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ended 44:4,11,14

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energy 79:4,7,15

79:17 89:3 92:1,4

92:7,7 100:12

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engineers 110:3

enter 118:2

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entitled 3:18

environment

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environments

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equal 55:25 56:2

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equations 97:14

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errata 3:9 117:8

118:1

error 79:22

especially 51:10

esq 2:5,6,12 117:2

essential 27:3,24

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etch 96:21

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exhibits 3:10

24:14,21

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62:12,18,24 63:5

63:10,15,22

existing 81:25

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expect 52:6,9,18

52:20 97:5,8,12,18

106:23 113:9

expectation 74:14

expecting 97:15

expensive 46:12

experience 11:18

11:19,22 12:12

17:13 48:24 49:17

[dr - experience]

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45:22 46:6,9,13,21

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99:9

facts 11:13,17,22

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fair 6:22,23 68:25

75:23 80:20 84:16

fairly 51:12 98:1,1

falling 73:22

familiar 7:1 103:3

far 73:6 77:11

78:16 92:8 94:11

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fast 17:22

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fdot 18:15

features 56:21,24

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fed 107:15

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feel 7:23 48:4 50:3

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feet 75:21,24

fellow 112:24

felt 35:7 68:14

ferrite 87:15,18,19

87:21 88:5,6,7

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fewer 59:7

field 11:22 12:3,7

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figueroa 2:4,11

figure 68:16 82:21

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first 7:7,10,11

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44:10 45:24 46:1

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floor 2:4

florida 1:1 5:12,13

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fontalvo 1:22

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form 8:4 25:17

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formed 9:19 10:8

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forth 79:8 84:23

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four 97:25 98:1,13

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frequency 90:25

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front 6:6 17:7

full 9:17 10:6,21

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35:15 36:21 37:4

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fully 10:13,16,20

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fun 96:4 104:6

further 21:11

37:17 93:12 98:15

98:15,19 99:24

100:24 113:25

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future 10:14 12:23

13:3 15:24

g

gain 94:1 97:9

gainesville 5:12,13

general 13:6 44:19

107:23

generating 89:3

getting 60:24

100:20

gigahertz 104:25

105:20 108:9,13

108:17

give 4:22 14:20

33:1 75:20 77:17

[experience - give]

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given 43:9 52:7

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half 92:7 95:6

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19:5 71:9

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hyunjin 3:20

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i

ic 51:8 89:2

idea 64:18 83:17

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identical 91:2

identification

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identified 61:14

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15:21 17:25 21:5

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ieee 112:24

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76:6,19 104:24

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103:15 106:6

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37:23 78:24 79:3

80:1 99:8

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inch 56:2,22 60:16

89:8

inches 55:17,20

56:1,22 58:8,12,16

59:3,13,20 60:16

63:5 86:2 87:5

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64:15 65:11

inclined 64:6

66:12

include 29:22 30:3

46:9

included 21:14

22:3,5 39:1 68:20

includes 24:16

including 31:3

37:8 49:12 65:18

89:9 90:14

incorporate 15:16

15:19

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individuals 113:3

inductance 90:13

90:16 91:7,9

inductors 109:24

industries 58:4

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influence 30:5

31:12,14 34:12

39:5 47:8

information 8:3

8:12 10:2 12:4,17

13:11 15:8 20:22

28:17 29:13 84:23

infringement

22:19,22 42:22

[give - infringement]

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instruct 11:3 26:7

instruction 3:4,5,6

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intend 10:25

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15:16 29:24 30:3

31:16 32:2,14,22

33:1,5,9,10,11,20

34:4,9,12,16,20,23

35:6,20,20 46:4,17

46:18 52:14 53:20

53:22,25 54:19

61:22,24 64:8,14

65:24,24 66:3,16

66:16,23 67:3,12

67:14,14,19 71:19

71:20,21 72:12,14

72:19,21 73:24

75:16 76:2,13

77:8,12,15,18,25

78:3,8 79:6 82:22

83:2,11,19,24

84:22 85:4,8

89:14,25 90:23

91:18 92:12,21,24

95:1,2,5,8 97:18

99:21 101:23

110:16

uses 91:20,24

92:25

v

vague 8:6 9:21

11:2,15 12:1,10,25

14:22 15:4,11

20:24 21:9 23:21

24:12 25:2,18

30:8,14 31:19

34:14 35:9 38:21

39:6 40:1,13 41:4

42:6 47:4,15 51:4

52:2 53:13 55:22

56:12 59:25 60:11

61:20 74:7 75:7

76:9 77:20 81:23

82:25 86:22 100:3

105:3 112:2

values 64:25

109:17

varactor 106:25

variable 109:21

various 34:5 57:1

74:20

vendor 103:20

veritext 4:8

versus 4:6 18:14

19:2

videographer 2:15

4:1,7 37:12,16

43:18,21 44:24

45:2 69:11,14

83:4,7 113:18,21

114:2,4

videotaped 1:16

116:8

vitae 3:16

voltage 107:4

vs 1:7,12 117:4

118:3

w

w 5:8

wait 80:2,4

waive 117:6,13,22

wake 80:4

wakes 80:5

want 20:12 26:23

33:11 43:25 47:5

64:2 78:14,15,16

78:22 79:19 80:16

93:23 96:21 99:4

104:20 105:19

107:14,15 113:23

wanted 32:19 33:9

70:12 73:10 95:10

watch 34:19,21

35:1,2 89:22

watches 34:23

waterproof 30:20

waterproofing

30:24 31:5

waterproofness

30:20

wave 108:7,12,12

wavelength 95:4,6

98:14 108:17

wavelengths 108:7

way 6:10 15:15,16

38:2 61:5,15 62:9

95:8,20 99:6

100:17 107:6

112:4

ways 95:11,18

we've 38:11 62:1

wear 34:19 65:24

wearability 33:25

34:2

wearable 24:25

25:4,6 49:20,22

50:8,14,17,18 54:1

54:3 64:4 65:22

65:22

weighed 32:2

weight 29:13,18

welcome 43:24

69:17

wide 79:13

widely 95:19

william 1:17 3:13

3:17 4:4 5:7 115:8

116:9 117:2,25

118:3,25

willing 94:4

109:15

windows 6:2

winds 92:22

wireless 49:7

50:11,13 51:8

57:9,17 60:14,18

62:11,18,23 63:3,9

65:4 72:4,9 87:3

87:22 89:6 92:15

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97:11

wish 117:13

witness 3:8 4:9,24

6:13,25 7:8 17:18

18:1 19:10,15,19

37:15,19 40:5,9

45:1 49:5 83:6

113:16,25

witness's 14:6

38:22 40:2 41:12

wondering 45:7

wording 27:23

60:6

words 27:19 29:1

40:16,20 41:3

49:9 65:11

work 12:11 19:10

49:1 51:9 73:10

73:25 80:13 82:16

86:24 88:4 91:12

94:20 97:13 109:7

112:4

worked 17:20

95:25

working 33:17

96:3 97:11

works 96:22

worms 70:22

worn 64:5

worrall 21:13,18

worry 99:17

worth 17:22

wrap 38:14 113:14

wraps 93:1

wristwatch 67:16

68:12,23

write 110:1 118:2

written 36:13

38:20 40:20 41:2

42:4 106:6,20

111:12

wrote 110:9

x

x 3:1

y

yeah 11:8 16:13

17:1 21:19 32:25

35:18 37:18 39:8

43:15 54:11 55:9

55:23 58:9 63:19

66:25 74:17 77:21

84:9 85:4,24

89:20,20 90:4

96:6 100:20 101:2

101:4,6,11,17

102:12 110:6,6

113:6,17

years 74:9 96:8

106:20 112:13,14

yep 108:11

z

zero 47:24 53:4

64:25 67:7 100:6

zoom 5:18

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Federal Rules of Civil Procedure

Rule 30

(e) Review By the Witness; Changes.

(1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the

deponent or a party before the deposition is

completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days

after being notified by the officer that the

transcript or recording is available in which:

(A) to review the transcript or recording; and

(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to

sign a statement listing the changes and the

reasons for making them.

(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate.

The officer must note in the certificate prescribed

by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested

and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent

makes during the 30-day period.

DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.

THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1,

2019. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.

Case 1:20-cv-22945-RNS Document 281-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 04/19/2022 Page 143 of

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VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS 

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