·1· · · · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

·2· · · · · · · · · SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

·3· · · · · · · · · · FORT LAUDERDALE DIVISION

·4

·5· ·AKAI CUSTOM GUNS, L.L.C.,

·6· ·a Florida Limited Liability

·7· ·Company, and SHAY HOROWITZ,

·8· ·an Individual,

·9· · · · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,

10· · · · -vs-· · · · · · · · · · · ·Case No. 20-cv-61469-RS

11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Hon. Rodney Smith

12· ·KKM PRECISION, INC., a Nevada

13· ·Corporation, SHOOTERS CONNECTION,

14· ·INC., a Kentucky Corporation,

15· · · · · · · · · ·Defendants.

16· ·_____________________________________/

17· ·PAGE 1 TO 158

18

19· · · · The continued deposition of MICHAEL DAME, VOL. II

20· · · · Taken Via Hanson Remote

21· · · · Commencing at 8:00 a.m.,

22· · · · Thursday, November 3, 2022

23· · · · Before Diane L. Szach, CSR-3170.

24

25· · · Court reporter, attorneys & witness appearing remotely.

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·1· ·APPEARANCES:

·2

·3· ·EDMUND S. YEE, ESQ.

·4· ·McKelvie, McKelvie, Yee & Epacs, P.C.

·5· ·280 West Maple Road, Suite 220

·6· ·Birmingham, Michigan 48009

·7· ·(248) 952-5100

·8· ·eyee@mmyelaw.com

·9· · · · -and10· ·RICHARD J. FIATO, ESQ.

11· ·Law Offices of Richard J. Fiato

12· ·550 West Merrill Street, Suite 200

13· ·Birmingham, Michigan 48009

14· ·(248) 262-5403

15· ·fiatolaw@gmail.com

16· · · · Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs.

17

18· ·KEVIN PATRICK ROBINSON, ESQ.

19· ·NICHOLAS CARDAMONE, ESQ.

20· ·Zimmerman Kiser & Sutcliff

21· ·315 East Robinson Street, Suite 600

22· ·Orlando, Florida 32801

23· ·(407) 425-7010

24· ·krobinson@zkslawfirm.com

25· · · · Appearing on behalf of the Defendant KKM.

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·1· ·APPEARANCES CONTINUED:

·2

·3· ·JOHN Y. BENFORD, ESQ.

·4· ·Wilson Elser Moskowitz Edelman & Dicker, L.L.P.

·5· ·111 North Orange Avenue, Suite 1200

·6· ·Orlando, Florida 32801

·7· ·(407) 648-1376

·8· ·john.benford@wilsonelser.com

·9· · · · Appearing on behalf of the Defendant Shooters

10· · · · Connection, Inc.

11

12· ·ALSO PRESENT:

13· ·Shay Horowitz

14· ·Charles Bradley

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · TABLE OF CONTENTS

·2· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·3· ·MICHAEL DAME

·4· · · · Examination by Mr. Yee· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6

·5· · · · Examination by Mr. Benford· · · · · · · · · · · ·44

·6· · · · Examination by Mr. Robinson· · · · · · · · · · ·129

·7· · · · Examination by Mr. Yee· · · · · · · · · · · · · 133

·8· · · · Examination by Mr. Benford· · · · · · · · · · · 154

·9

10

11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS

12· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · ·IDENTIFICATION· · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE

13· · 19· · · · DAA memes· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7

14· · 19.1· · · DAA Contingency idea· · · · · · · · · · · · 8

15· · 20· · · · Dame-Wells texts· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10

16· · 20.1· · · Dame-Cao texts· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·15

17· · 20.2· · · Cao encouragement· · · · · · · · · · · · · 17

18· · 21· · · · Dame-Vlieger texts· · · · · · · · · · · · ·18

19· · 22· · · · Dame-Mekosh texts, Papa Joe· · · · · · · · 21

20· · 22.1· · · Dame-Mekosh texts, Hoffer· · · · · · · · · 30

21· · 23· · · · Dame-Mekosh texts, racism· · · · · · · · · 38

22· · 24· · · · Hodgdon post· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 150

23· · 25· · · · Hoffer Dame· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·152

24

25

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·1· ·Remote deposition

·2· ·Thursday, November 3, 2022

·3· ·About 8:00 a.m.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·COURT REPORTER:· My name is Diane L. Szach,

·5· · · · a Michigan State notary public and certified shorthand

·6· · · · reporter and this deposition is being held via

·7· · · · videoconferencing equipment.· The witness and reporter

·8· · · · are not in the same room.· The witness will be sworn

·9· · · · in remotely pursuant to agreement of all parties.· The

10· · · · parties stipulate that the testimony is being given as

11· · · · if the witness was sworn in person.

12· · · · · · · · · ·Do you solemnly swear that the testimony

13· · · · you are about to give will be the truth, the whole

14· · · · truth and nothing but the truth?

15· · · · · · · · · ·MICHAEL DAME:· Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL DAME,

17· ·having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified on

18· ·his oath as follows:

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Good morning, Mr. Dame.· I just

20· · · · want to remind you that at the beginning of the

21· · · · deposition from last Wednesday, the same ground rules

22· · · · will apply today.

23· · · · · · · · · ·Just a quick reminder, please let me finish

24· · · · my question before you respond.· Again, Diane is

25· · · · recording the deposition this morning.· It's very

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·1· · · · important that that's accurate.

·2· · · · · · · · · ·Also, if at any point in time you don't

·3· · · · hear my question or don't understand it, let me know.

·4· · · · I'll be more than happy to repeat it or rephrase it.

·5· · · · And then certainly if you need to take a break, let me

·6· · · · know.· Just ask for the break after you answer the

·7· · · · pending question, okay?

·8· · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.

·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

10· ·BY MR. YEE:

11· ·Q.· ·Last week before we took our break I think we were

12· · · · just getting ready to move on to a new exhibit.· Let

13· · · · me pull that exhibit up.

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Well, actually, Ed, before

15· · · · we get going.· And, I'm sorry, I should have done this

16· · · · before we got on the record.· John I think had asked

17· · · · you right about our lunch break last session, you

18· · · · know, about how much time you had left, and

19· · · · understanding that Mike has the hard stop at 2:00

20· · · · again today, and John probably has a few hours of

21· · · · questions for him, I want to make sure we plan

22· · · · appropriately so everyone has an opportunity.

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I don't think that I have much

24· · · · more than an hour I think today.· At least -- it's

25· · · · obviously going to depend on how it goes, but I don't

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·1· · · · think I have that much today.

·2· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· If you're done inside of two

·3· · · · hours, I think that probably works for everyone.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Yes, that should be fine. I

·5· · · · think I only have about an hour, hour and a half. I

·6· · · · just want to make sure the witness is able to get to

·7· · · · work on time.

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Right.

·9· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 19 was marked

10· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

11· ·BY MR. YEE:

12· ·Q.· ·Mr. Dame, I want to direct your attention to a

13· · · · document that I just shared on the screen with

14· · · · everyone.· This will be Exhibit 19.· You identified

15· · · · last week it's your understanding that the person who

16· · · · controls or operates the Double Alfalfa page is John

17· · · · Ormon, correct?

18· ·A.· ·Correct.

19· ·Q.· ·And looking at Exhibit 19 here we see that there are

20· · · · some memes that Double Alfalfa posted back in January

21· · · · I believe this was 2020 regarding Akai's contingency

22· · · · program that we discussed that last week.· Do you see

23· · · · these?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.

25· ·Q.· ·Let me show them to you.· Did you ask Mr. Ormon or

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·1· · · · Double Alfalfa at the time to post any of these memes

·2· · · · regarding the Akai contingency program?

·3· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.· I think they did those on their

·4· · · · own.

·5· ·Q.· ·Did you provide this information regarding the Akai

·6· · · · contingency program to Double Alfalfa?

·7· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did you have any conversation with Double Alfalfa

·9· · · · regarding the Akai contingency program?

10· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Let's move on to the next exhibit

12· · · · here.· This will be Exhibit 19.1.

13· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 19.1 was marked

14· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

15· ·BY MR. YEE:

16· ·Q.· ·This is a conversation I believe with you and

17· · · · Mr. Mekosh, correct?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·And Mr. Mekosh is the gray text and you are in the

20· · · · blue or purple text, correct?

21· ·A.· ·If that's from my phone, yes, that's what that would

22· · · · be.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· On January 8, 2020 at 3:48 p.m. you seem to

24· · · · indicate to Mr. Mekosh that you sent DA my sponsor

25· · · · shooter application idea?· Do you see that?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·Is DA referring to Double Alfalfa?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what is this sponsor shooter application idea that

·5· · · · you gave to Double Alfalfa?

·6· ·A.· ·Years ago when I was helping write stuff for the Feed

·7· · · · Ramp satire page, I came up with an idea to have all

·8· · · · these shooters that I think, you know, they deserve to

·9· · · · be sponsored and they're really, really good, send an

10· · · · application into an email address, and then have

11· · · · automated replies to just keep on going is what we

12· · · · were thinking about, like looking over an application

13· · · · and never actually giving an answer, just to see who

14· · · · would send stuff in.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Then later at 4:03 p.m. you seem to send

16· · · · Mr. Mekosh a meme that says honor your agreement or

17· · · · pick up 25 cards, and then there is a gentleman on the

18· · · · right that says shady crook.· Is this referring to the

19· · · · Akai contingency program?

20· ·A.· ·It seems to be.

21· ·Q.· ·So obviously you were talking to Mr. Mekosh about the

22· · · · Akai contingency program between the two of you,

23· · · · correct?

24· ·A.· ·Correct.

25· ·Q.· ·And it's your testimony that you do not recall

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·1· · · · providing any of this information to Double Alfalfa?

·2· ·A.· ·No.· It's three years ago, man.

·3· ·Q.· ·And you don't recall asking Double Alfalfa to post

·4· · · · anything on the Double Alfalfa site regarding the Akai

·5· · · · contingency program?

·6· ·A.· ·I don't recall doing that.

·7· ·Q.· ·And it's your testimony that this text here or this

·8· · · · message that I sent DA my sponsor shooter application

·9· · · · idea does not relate to the Akai contingency program?

10· ·A.· ·No, it's a separate idea, something I thought was

11· · · · funny back then that popped up, and I wanted him to

12· · · · take that on because Feed Ramp kind of died.

13· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 20 was marked

14· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

15· ·BY MR. YEE:

16· ·Q.· ·Let's move on to Exhibit 20.· This is a document that

17· · · · you produced in response to a subpoena.· It appears to

18· · · · be a conversation between you and a Tony Wells,

19· · · · correct?

20· ·A.· ·Correct.

21· ·Q.· ·Who is Tony Wells?

22· ·A.· ·A friend of mine in Ohio.· Also I believe he's friends

23· · · · with Luke.

24· ·Q.· ·When you say Luke, Luke who?

25· ·A.· ·Cao.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Luke Cao?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·There appears to be a communication on December 29th,

·4· · · · 2019 from you to Mr. Wells where you indicate need to

·5· · · · convince Luke to put Shay stealing from him online.

·6· · · · Do you see that?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·Is this referring to Mr. Cao's issue with the Akai

·9· · · · contingency program?

10· ·A.· ·Seems to be.

11· ·Q.· ·So here you are telling a friend of yours in Ohio,

12· · · · Mr. Wells, that you need to get in touch with Mr. Cao

13· · · · to get him to post something online about the Akai

14· · · · contingency program, correct?

15· ·A.· ·Well, to tell his story.

16· ·Q.· ·And why is that?

17· ·A.· ·Because I felt he was being unjustly treated, and he

18· · · · was very -- he's a very quiet person, so I'm like, no,

19· · · · you need to let people know that you feel you're being

20· · · · cheated.

21· ·Q.· ·And this started about December 29th, 2019, correct?

22· ·A.· ·When it started I don't know, but that's when that

23· · · · comment was.· You said 19.· You said December 19th or

24· · · · December 29th?· That comment was December 29th. I

25· · · · don't know when it started.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Right.· When you talked to Mr. Cao about his issue

·2· · · · with the contingency program, what time frame was that

·3· · · · issue, do you recall?

·4· ·A.· ·December, that's about it.

·5· ·Q.· ·And why were you telling Mr. Wells about Mr. Cao's

·6· · · · issue with the contingency program?

·7· ·A.· ·I can't recall if he asked me if I knew anything about

·8· · · · it, or -- I would have to look to see the rest of that

·9· · · · conversation.

10· ·Q.· ·Regarding Mr. Cao's issue with the Akai contingency

11· · · · program, what business of that was yours, if any?

12· ·A.· ·Can you repeat the question?

13· ·Q.· ·Sure.· You mentioned that you understood that Mr. Cao

14· · · · had a problem with the Akai contingency program.· My

15· · · · question to you is, what business was that of yours,

16· · · · if any?

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

18· ·A.· ·Akai is a fellow competitor in a sport I've put a lot

19· · · · of time and effort into.

20· ·BY MR. YEE:

21· ·Q.· ·But did Mr. Cao's issue with the Akai contingency

22· · · · program have any direct effect on you?

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

24· ·A.· ·On my shooting, no.· On my sport, yes.

25· ·BY MR. YEE:

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·1· ·Q.· ·What was the effect on the sport?

·2· ·A.· ·It was damaging other shooters.· If somebody is

·3· · · · holding a contingency program to get people to buy

·4· · · · their product and then they're not honoring their

·5· · · · contingency program, in my mind that's, you know,

·6· · · · stealing from competitors.

·7· ·Q.· ·So it may have an affect on Mr. Cao, but it didn't

·8· · · · have a direct effect on you, though, correct?

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

10· ·A.· ·Me, no.· My sport, yes.

11· ·BY MR. YEE:

12· ·Q.· ·Did you have any role in running or administering the

13· · · · USPSA?

14· ·A.· ·On a national level, no.· On a club level, I put a lot

15· · · · of time and effort into helping build matches.· I used

16· · · · to be a match director.

17· ·Q.· ·And what region would that be?

18· ·A.· ·I was a match director in my home club in Windsor, and

19· · · · I've built stages and had partial director match

20· · · · duties in Michigan.· And I'm part of the build team

21· · · · and Mr. Fix-It for any major matches that take place

22· · · · at BGSO in Kentucky.

23· ·Q.· ·Were you paid for helping coordinate these matches, or

24· · · · were you simply a volunteer?

25· ·A.· ·Match works volunteer.· When I was match director in

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·1· · · · Windsor I had my club fees paid for the year, which is

·2· · · · like 150 bucks.

·3· ·Q.· ·Did you help coordinate any matches in the states?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes, I said that, in Michigan and Kentucky.· And,

·5· · · · sorry, and Indiana for Silver Creek.

·6· ·Q.· ·And were you paid to help arrange those matches in any

·7· · · · way?

·8· ·A.· ·No.

·9· ·Q.· ·So later on also on Exhibit 20 on January 9, 2020 you

10· · · · tell Mr. Wells, you indicate while Luke did leave some

11· · · · key info out when we talked, Shay is still the cunt

12· · · · here.· Do you see that?

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·Q.· ·What key info did Mr. Cao leave out?

15· ·A.· ·I don't know.

16· ·Q.· ·You have no idea?

17· ·A.· ·I have no idea.· This was three years ago.

18· ·Q.· ·You seem to indicate to Mr. Wells that there was some

19· · · · information that may have showed that Shay was not

20· · · · 100 percent of the problem here, correct?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

22· ·A.· ·I can't be sure if I'm saying that, or if I'm saying

23· · · · Luke left info out that said Shay was the problem. I

24· · · · can't say one way or the other because I'm only seeing

25· · · · that, and it was three years ago.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Cao ever tell you that he bought a new gun

·2· · · · from Akai?

·3· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

·4· ·Q.· ·Do you have any personal or direct knowledge that

·5· · · · Mr. Cao ever purchased a brand new Akai gun?

·6· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Cao tell you how much in contingencies he

·8· · · · received from Akai?

·9· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

10· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Cao ever tell you that he called and yelled at

11· · · · Akai's front desk receptionist Lazette (ph)?

12· ·A.· ·I believe that was Shay's claim.

13· ·Q.· ·Did you ever ask Mr. Cao about that?

14· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

15· ·Q.· ·In the previous exhibit you mentioned that Shay -- or

16· · · · actually in this exhibit here you indicate you need to

17· · · · convince Luke to put Shay stealing from him online.

18· · · · What do you mean that Shay was stealing from Mr. Cao?

19· ·A.· ·If Mr. Cao was due X amount of money in contingency

20· · · · and he was not getting that, is that not theft?

21· ·Q.· ·I don't understand, what do you mean by theft?· What

22· · · · was Shay actually stealing from Mr. Cao?

23· ·A.· ·The rewards that Mr. Cao was -- had earned.

24· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 20.1 was marked

25· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

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·1· ·BY MR. YEE:

·2· ·Q.· ·Let's go on this Exhibit 20.1 this appears to be a

·3· · · · conversation between you and Mr. Cao, correct?

·4· ·A.· ·Correct.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So this conversation appears to have occurred

·6· · · · on December 29th, 2019 at about 9:51 p.m.· Do you see

·7· · · · that?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Was this the first time you talked to Mr. Cao about

10· · · · the Akai contingency program?

11· ·A.· ·I don't recall, but it looks that way.

12· ·Q.· ·It looks like it was roughly around the same time you

13· · · · talked to Mr. Wells?

14· ·A.· ·December 29th, yes, correct.

15· ·Q.· ·And it looks like here you indicate please tell me you

16· · · · aren't going to be quiet about this.· Fucker lied to

17· · · · you and stole from you.· Do you see that?

18· ·A.· ·I do.

19· ·Q.· ·Is this you encouraging Mr. Cao to go public or go

20· · · · online by the Akai contingency program?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

22· ·A.· ·I don't know about go online, but not to keep quiet

23· · · · about it.

24· ·BY MR. YEE:

25· ·Q.· ·So you're encouraging him to talk about it?

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·1· ·A.· ·To bring it to light, yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·Which is kind of in line with what you talked to

·3· · · · Mr. Wells or told Mr. Wells, that you wanted to get

·4· · · · Luke to talk about it, correct?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·BY MR. YEE:

·8· ·Q.· ·Let's go on to Exhibit 20.2.

·9· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 20.2 was marked

10· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

11· ·BY MR. YEE:

12· ·Q.· ·This is a conversation between you and Mr. Mekosh.· In

13· · · · fact here you're telling Mr. Mekosh, look, Luke took

14· · · · two weeks of encouragement.· Do you see that?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·So this is here where you're telling Mr. Mekosh that

17· · · · in fact you had encouraged Luke Cao to go public about

18· · · · the Akai contingency program, correct?

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

20· ·A.· ·Appears so.

21· ·BY MR. YEE

22· ·Q.· ·And then further on Exhibit 20.2 Mr. Mekosh then in

23· · · · fact responds back to you on January 18th, 2020 at

24· · · · 9:44 p.m., he puts together a meme that kind of mocks

25· · · · the Akai contingency program, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Correct.

·2· ·Q.· ·Let's move on to Exhibit 20.3.

·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 20.3 was marked

·4· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

·5· ·BY MR. YEE:

·6· ·Q.· ·This is another conversation between you and

·7· · · · Mr. Mekosh, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·9· ·Q.· ·Here Mr. Mekosh is providing to you another meme

10· · · · regarding the Akai contingency program, correct?

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·Q.· ·You respond here to Mr. Mekosh's meme here, that is

13· · · · perfect as it isn't an Akai meme.· Do you see that?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·What did you mean by that this is perfect that it

16· · · · isn't an Akai meme?

17· ·A.· ·I'm not quite sure.

18· ·Q.· ·Is it possible that you and Mr. Mekosh were looking to

19· · · · post memes out there and trying to keep the Akai name

20· · · · out?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

22· ·A.· ·As I said, I can't be sure.· That's quite a while ago

23· · · · and I'm missing --

24· ·BY MR. YEE:

25· ·Q.· ·Nevertheless, you and Mr. Mekosh are talking about

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·1· · · · posting memes and letting others know about the Akai

·2· · · · contingency program, correct?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·4· ·A.· ·I don't know about posting.· He just made a meme and

·5· · · · showed it to me.

·6· ·BY MR. YEE:

·7· ·Q.· ·Regarding the Akai contingency program, other than

·8· · · · Mr. Wells, who else did you tell about Mr. Cao's

·9· · · · problems with the Akai contingency program?

10· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

11· ·Q.· ·You can't recall another name in addition to

12· · · · Mr. Wells?

13· ·A.· ·All of them?· Judging by what you've got coming up

14· · · · next, I guess I mentioned something to John Vlieger,

15· · · · but I don't know for sure who I've told that to.

16· ·Q.· ·Last week you identified several Facebook pages that

17· · · · you had -- that you were on either as an admin, and I

18· · · · forget the other term, but you had control.· Did you

19· · · · ever post anything about the Akai contingency program

20· · · · on any of the pages you had control of or access to?

21· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

22· ·Q.· ·Last week we identified a Mr. Alvin Lin and also an

23· · · · Asian Pew Pew group.· Do you remember that?

24· ·A.· ·I do.

25· ·Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Lin or any of the Asian Pew Pew

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·1· · · · groups about the Akai contingency program?

·2· ·A.· ·I think Alvin is the one that told me about it is my

·3· · · · recollection.

·4· ·Q.· ·So Mr. Lin was the one that told you about Mr. Cao's

·5· · · · issue with the Akai contingency program is your

·6· · · · recollection?

·7· ·A.· ·I believe so.

·8· ·Q.· ·Do you remember when that was?

·9· ·A.· ·It would have -- not specifically.· I would guess when

10· · · · it went down, so December of 2019.

11· ·Q.· ·And do you recall how that conversation took place?

12· · · · Did you contact Mr. Lin or Mr. Lin contact you?

13· ·A.· ·I couldn't recall.· Alvin and are constantly talking

14· · · · back and forth about various things, so.

15· ·Q.· ·We saw an exhibit last week where you made reference

16· · · · to have to rally the Asian Pew Pew groups or troops,

17· · · · do you remember that?

18· ·A.· ·I do.

19· ·Q.· ·I guess in your contact with these Asian Pew Pew

20· · · · groups, is that when you contacted Mr. Lin?

21· ·A.· ·No, I'm constantly in contact with Mr. Lin.

22· ·Q.· ·Regarding the Akai contingency program, did you ever

23· · · · send any memes or let anyone know about the Akai

24· · · · contingency program through any private messages?

25· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

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·1· ·Q.· ·What about text messages?

·2· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

·3· ·Q.· ·Let's move on to Exhibit 21.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 21 was marked

·5· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

·6· ·BY MR. YEE:

·7· ·Q.· ·This is a conversation between I believe you and

·8· · · · Mr. Vlieger, correct?

·9· ·A.· ·I don't know who that is.

10· ·Q.· ·Let me show you the whole thing.· Well, let's start

11· · · · with the name Michael here and the little profile pic.

12· · · · Is that you?

13· ·A.· ·Yes, that's me, but I don't see anything saying who

14· · · · the other side is.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· There is a reference here -- the person here

16· · · · says down in the purple box here, you should ask him

17· · · · when he's going to pay H & M Black Nitride for the

18· · · · coating they did for him.· Never paid and then claimed

19· · · · their coating cracked one of his slides, and I don't

20· · · · think he wants that.· Chuck will bury him, so will

21· · · · KKM.· Does this refresh your recollection that this is

22· · · · Mr. Vlieger?

23· ·A.· ·I assume, yes.· I think I remember.

24· ·Q.· ·And earlier on in this that same person says, I never

25· · · · want to piss that man off, and you respond by saying,

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·1· · · · Lexington Mafia is real.· Do you see that?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Does this also help refresh your recollection that

·4· · · · this is Mr. Vlieger?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So on Page 1 of Exhibit 21 you seem to be

·7· · · · telling Mr. Vlieger he's fucking Luke Cao out of 4600

·8· · · · in contingency dollar sign.· Do you see that?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·So I think you said earlier that when I asked you who

11· · · · else did you tell about the contingency program, you

12· · · · mentioned Mr. Vlieger.· This is where you told

13· · · · Mr. Vlieger, correct?

14· ·A.· ·It appears so, yes.

15· ·Q.· ·And as you sit here today, you're saying that the only

16· · · · persons you recall telling about the Akai contingency

17· · · · program is Mr. Vlieger and Mr. Wells, is that correct?

18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

20· ·A.· ·That's the best as I can recall at the moment, yes.

21· ·BY MR. YEE:

22· ·Q.· ·And you indicated it was Mr. Lin that actually told

23· · · · you about it, correct?

24· ·A.· ·I said I think that might have been how, and I can't

25· · · · know for sure.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Looking at Page 2 here on Exhibit 21, it appears here

·2· · · · that you are now providing Mr. Vlieger the information

·3· · · · about the moving scam that Mr. Horowitz was allegedly

·4· · · · a part of, correct?

·5· ·A.· ·Correct.

·6· ·Q.· ·And why were you providing that to Mr. Vlieger?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·9· ·A.· ·Specifically right now I can't recall.· Probably

10· · · · because it had something to do with Shay.

11· ·BY MR. YEE:

12· ·Q.· ·Were you attempting to discredit Mr. Horowitz with

13· · · · Mr. Vlieger?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

16· ·A.· ·I wouldn't have to discredit Shay with Mr. Vlieger.

17· · · · As you can see from other comments, he already didn't

18· · · · give Mr. Horowitz any credit.· I notice Scott Thompson

19· · · · says he had a bad barrel, too, upper lug sheared off

20· · · · at Nats.

21· ·BY MR. YEE:

22· ·Q.· ·On Page 3 of Exhibit 21 you appear to be talking to

23· · · · Mr. Vlieger about a hacked up KKM barrel that Akai

24· · · · posted on the SC page.· Do you see that?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·What do you know about that barrel?

·2· ·A.· ·Oh, I would have to know what specific barrel that

·3· · · · comment is about to answer anything, but I wouldn't

·4· · · · recall anything anyway.· If you showed me a picture of

·5· · · · it, I can probably tell you what I think about it.

·6· ·Q.· ·One second here, let me see if I can find a picture of

·7· · · · that barrel for you.· I know I've seen a color picture

·8· · · · of the barrel I'm talking about, but this is the only

·9· · · · one I can find right now.· It's a black and white from

10· · · · Exhibit 5.· We discussed last week the barrel that you

11· · · · had made a comment that it looked like a two-year-old

12· · · · had cut it.· Do you recall that?

13· ·A.· ·I recall that, yes.

14· ·Q.· ·Is this the barrel you're talking to Mr. Vlieger about

15· · · · on Exhibit 21?

16· ·A.· ·I have no idea.

17· ·Q.· ·Going back to Exhibit 21, regarding information you

18· · · · provided to Mr. Vlieger about the moving scam that

19· · · · Mr. Horowitz allegedly was involved with, did you

20· · · · actually read that post?

21· ·A.· ·I skimmed through some of it if I recall it correctly.

22· ·Q.· ·Do you remember seeing in that post or that link that

23· · · · there was information that indicated that if you were

24· · · · a person that couldn't get your goods, there was

25· · · · information there that provided that if you contact

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·1· · · · Mr. Horowitz, that he would try to help you find your

·2· · · · goods?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·5· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

·6· ·BY MR. YEE:

·7· ·Q.· ·Page 4, I mentioned this comment earlier, Mr. Vlieger

·8· · · · says to you I never want to piss that man off, and you

·9· · · · responded back by saying Lexington Mafia is real.· Do

10· · · · you see that?

11· ·A.· ·I do.

12· ·Q.· ·What do you mean by Lexington Mafia is real?

13· ·A.· ·There is a thing called a joke.· There's a group of

14· · · · shooters from the KY area that before I started

15· · · · shooting down here that always shot together.· They're

16· · · · referred to as the KY Mafia for some reason.· That's

17· · · · why I made that joke, because Chuck was one of them.

18· · · · Not implying that Chuck is a member of the organized

19· · · · crime ring.

20· ·Q.· ·On Page 6 of Exhibit 21 it continues on in the

21· · · · discussion between you and Mr. Vlieger about the H & M

22· · · · Nitride issue, and you indicate here that would be fun

23· · · · to watch go public.· Do you see that?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.

25· ·Q.· ·And Mr. Vlieger responds he's not the only one who

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·1· · · · Shay owes money to, small amounts maybe, but a pattern

·2· · · · is a pattern.· And then you respond by saying need

·3· · · · them all to go public.· Do you see that?

·4· ·A.· ·I do.

·5· ·Q.· ·Why are you suggesting to Mr. Vlieger that these

·6· · · · entities such as H & M should go public?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, form.

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·9· ·A.· ·Because sunshine is the best disinfectant.

10· ·BY MR. YEE:

11· ·Q.· ·What does that mean?

12· ·A.· ·It means if somebody is doing something wrong and you

13· · · · keep quiet about it, they're going to keep doing it

14· · · · wrong, correct?· So I just felt -- I assume I felt I

15· · · · wanted anybody that was being wrongfully treated to go

16· · · · public.

17· ·Q.· ·Prior to the public service announcement posted by

18· · · · Akai, did you encourage people to go public about Akai

19· · · · about any issue?

20· ·A.· ·I believe I told Mike Gnyra to complain about the way

21· · · · -- about what he didn't like about his gun.· I can't

22· · · · recall anything else.

23· ·Q.· ·So after the public service announcement issue begins,

24· · · · you are now encouraging Mr. Cao to go public about the

25· · · · contingency program, you're talking to Mr. Vlieger

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·1· · · · about H & M about going public, correct?

·2· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, form.

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·4· ·A.· ·Well, the contingency was something completely

·5· · · · different, and Mr. Vlieger is the one that told me

·6· · · · about H & M.

·7· ·BY MR. YEE:

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· How is the contingency program completely

·9· · · · different?

10· ·A.· ·I don't see how that's related to the PSA.

11· ·Q.· ·I don't either, but yet you're encouraging Mr. Cao to

12· · · · go public about it coincidentally after the PSA is

13· · · · posted.

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Ed, no question pending.

16· ·A.· ·After 9/11 it was all --

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Hold on.· Mike, Mr. Yee made

18· · · · a statement.· Only answer questions.· If he makes a

19· · · · statement, it's not an inquiry to you.

20· ·A.· ·Gotcha.

21· ·BY MR. YEE:

22· ·Q.· ·So my question to you, Mr. Dame, is that you indicated

23· · · · that you don't see how the contingency program is

24· · · · related to PSA, but yet coincidentally after the PSA

25· · · · is posted, you are now encouraging Mr. Cao to go

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·1· · · · public about the Akai contingency program.· Why is

·2· · · · that?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

·5· ·A.· ·Is that a question now?

·6· ·BY MR. YEE:

·7· ·Q.· ·Yes, it was a question.

·8· ·A.· ·The contingency issue is after 9/11 as well.· Are they

·9· · · · related?

10· ·Q.· ·I don't know what you mean by after 9/11?

11· ·A.· ·The terrorist attack, it happened after that as well,

12· · · · so is that related, too?· Just because something

13· · · · happened after something else doesn't mean they're

14· · · · related.· That's how time works.

15· ·Q.· ·I'm going to strike that response as nonresponsive.

16· · · · But my question, Mr. Dame, is that you indicated that

17· · · · the contingency program you don't feel is related to

18· · · · the PSA announcement, but, again, I'm trying to find

19· · · · out why are you encouraging Mr. Cao to speak about it

20· · · · publicly after the PSA is posted?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

23· ·A.· ·I still don't get how you contend that they're

24· · · · connected.· They're two separate things.· I was

25· · · · encouraging Luke because I felt Luke was wronged.

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·1· ·BY MR. YEE:

·2· ·Q.· ·And you were encouraging Luke because you wanted the

·3· · · · public to see Mr. Horowitz in a bad light, correct?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

·6· ·A.· ·I wanted Luke to get his side of the story out there.

·7· ·BY MR. YEE:

·8· ·Q.· ·Because you felt that he was being unfairly treated by

·9· · · · Mr. Horowitz, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Correct.

11· ·Q.· ·And so you wanted the public to know that Mr. Horowitz

12· · · · was a bad person, right?

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

15· ·A.· ·I wanted them to know what was going on with the

16· · · · contingency program.· What someone thought about that

17· · · · is their own opinion.

18· ·BY MR. YEE:

19· ·Q.· ·In fact, there was a conversation last week we talked

20· · · · about where you indicated that you thought that the

21· · · · Akai contingency program was the nail in the coffin,

22· · · · remember?

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

24· ·A.· ·Yes, I remember that.

25· ·BY MR. YEE:

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·1· ·Q.· ·So again you were trying to discredit Mr. Horowitz by

·2· · · · bringing up the issue of the Akai contingency program?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form, asked and

·4· · · · answered.

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

·6· ·A.· ·His actions would do that one way or the other.· I was

·7· · · · just asking Luke to not be quiet about it.

·8· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 22 was marked

·9· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

10· ·BY MR. YEE:

11· ·Q.· ·Let's move on to Exhibit 22.· This is you and

12· · · · Mr. Mekosh communicating, correct?

13· ·A.· ·Correct.

14· ·Q.· ·You indicate to Mr. Mekosh that you just got off the

15· · · · phone with Papa Joe.· Do you see that?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·And I believe we identified Papa Joe as Mr. Joe

18· · · · Rutkowski, correct?

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·Q.· ·You indicate here to Mr. Mekosh he was going to ask

21· · · · him.· What did you mean by that, who is him?

22· ·A.· ·I have no idea.

23· ·Q.· ·You then tell Mr. Mekosh, he did say he tried to

24· · · · search for him in the SCC and FINRA data base and got

25· · · · nothing.· Do you see that?

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·1· ·A.· ·I do.

·2· ·Q.· ·Is SCC supposed to be SEC?

·3· ·A.· ·I don't recall.· What is the SCC and SEC?

·4· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Rutkowski tell you he did run a search in

·5· · · · FINRA?

·6· ·A.· ·That's what that post is saying.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Looking at this communication between you and

·8· · · · Mr. Mekosh, is this relating to the alleged day

·9· · · · trading scam by Mr. Horowitz?

10· ·A.· ·Is that what SEC and FINRA are?

11· ·Q.· ·The SEC is the Securities and Exchange Commission.

12· ·A.· ·Okay.· Then that would be a good assumption.

13· ·Q.· ·So Mr. Rutkowski is telling you that he couldn't find

14· · · · anything related to Mr. Horowitz with the SEC or

15· · · · FINRA, correct?

16· ·A.· ·Correct.

17· ·Q.· ·Other than Mr. Mekosh or Mr. Rutkowski, who else did

18· · · · you discuss the day trading issue with Mr. Horowitz

19· · · · with?

20· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

21· ·Q.· ·Did you discuss it with Mr. Bradley?

22· ·A.· ·I can't recall if I did or not.· That was over -- Duty

23· · · · Project had info on that as well.· So there is no

24· · · · telling how many people knew about it.

25· ·Q.· ·Who is Duty Project?

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·1· ·A.· ·It's a -- started as a Facebook page, turned into a

·2· · · · Messenger page.· It was supposed to be a replacement

·3· · · · for the Brian Enos message boards, but wasn't as

·4· · · · formal -- wasn't as informative I guess.· It was just

·5· · · · mostly tomfoolery and crap talking.

·6· ·Q.· ·Were you ever an admin with Duty Project?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did you ever post anything on Duty Project?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes, I posted on Duty Project occasionally.

10· ·Q.· ·Did you post anything on Duty Project relating to Akai

11· · · · or Mr. Horowitz?

12· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

13· ·Q.· ·Did you ask anyone at Duty Project to post anything

14· · · · about Mr. Horowitz or Akai?

15· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

16· ·Q.· ·Were you ever banned from the Duty Project page?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·What for?

19· ·A.· ·A joke about Ben Stoeger.

20· ·Q.· ·And what was the joke about Mr. Stoeger?

21· ·A.· ·When what was his name -- when Alex Gutt won

22· · · · nationals, Ben put a picture of himself on a jet ski

23· · · · saying this is fun, and I put a picture that -- shared

24· · · · a picture of Alex with the trophy, I said -- I believe

25· · · · I said these are fun, too.

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·1· ·Q.· ·What are the names of some of the other pages you were

·2· · · · banned from?

·3· ·A.· ·I can't recall the pages I've been banned from.

·4· ·Q.· ·But Duty Project was one, correct?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·And you told us last week that you've been banned

·7· · · · numerous times by Facebook, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·Correct.

·9· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 22.1 was marked

10· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

11· ·BY MR. YEE:

12· ·Q.· ·Let's go to Exhibit 22.1.· This is you and Mr. Mekosh

13· · · · communicating, correct?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·It looks like around December 1, 2019, correct?

16· ·A.· ·Correct.

17· ·Q.· ·It appears to be a communication between you and

18· · · · Mr. Mekosh about an account by the name of Hoffer, is

19· · · · that correct?

20· ·A.· ·Where do you see Hoffer?

21· ·Q.· ·Right at the top here.

22· ·A.· ·Well, that's Ace Boles talking about Hoffer.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is Hoffer another page on Facebook?

24· ·A.· ·It's a backup page that Tim had for awhile.

25· ·Q.· ·When you say Tim, that's Mekosh?

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·1· ·A.· ·Correct.

·2· ·Q.· ·When you say that's a backup page, what do you mean by

·3· · · · backup page?

·4· ·A.· ·Like another Facebook profile.

·5· ·Q.· ·But why is it a backup?· Is that something you'd use

·6· · · · for instance if you get banned from your main page,

·7· · · · you use a different page, is that why there's a backup

·8· · · · page?

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form of that.

10· · · · Let me just for clarification, are you asking why Tim

11· · · · Mekosh used a backup page, and just --

12· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· No, I'm asking what's the --

13· · · · Mr. Dame testified last week he had a backup page.

14· · · · I'm trying to understand what a backup page is.

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· And I just wanted to

16· · · · make sure you're asking as it relates to Mr. Dame and

17· · · · not Mr. Mekosh's potential use of a backup page.

18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· No, I'm just trying to understand

19· · · · what a backup page is.

20· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· So, Mike, with

21· · · · respect to this line of questioning, you can answer as

22· · · · it pertains to you individually.

23· ·A.· ·Roger.· I have a backup page because I had a stint

24· · · · where I was constantly in Facebook jail.· So I made

25· · · · another page, and that way I could keep in touch with

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·1· · · · people, still feed that dopamine addiction we all

·2· · · · have -- most people have for Facebook these days.

·3· ·BY MR. YEE:

·4· ·Q.· ·Is the purpose for a backup page because your primary

·5· · · · page that you used you're banned from?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·And you indicated that the Hoffer page it's your

·8· · · · understanding was Mr. Mekosh's backup page?

·9· ·A.· ·Correct.

10· ·Q.· ·What is the actual name of the Hoffer page, do you

11· · · · know?· Is it simply Hoffer, or is there --

12· ·A.· ·It was Mike Hoffer.

13· ·Q.· ·Mike.· Mr. Mekosh indicates to you, now when John

14· · · · talks shit on him, he can blame me.· John now has full

15· · · · authority to make Shay think it's me.· Do you see

16· · · · that?

17· ·A.· ·I do.

18· ·Q.· ·Do you know who the John is that Mr. Mekosh is

19· · · · referring to?

20· ·A.· ·John Ormon.

21· ·Q.· ·Who you identified last week as the owner of Double

22· · · · Alfalfa, is that correct?

23· ·A.· ·Not conclusively.

24· ·Q.· ·So Mr. Mekosh indicating that John now has full

25· · · · authority to make Shay think it's me, when you're

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·1· · · · using a Facebook page, can you allow someone to be in

·2· · · · control of your page, is that how it works?

·3· ·A.· ·I don't know.· I'm not quite sure of what he did in

·4· · · · that instance.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever provided anyone else I guess

·6· · · · authority over one of your pages?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·Have you ever been given authority over someone else's

·9· · · · Facebook page?

10· ·A.· ·No.

11· ·Q.· ·Regarding Mr. Ormon, have you talked to him outside of

12· · · · Facebook, meaning have you talked to him on the phone?

13· ·A.· ·No.

14· ·Q.· ·Have you ever texted with Mr. Ormon?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·Have you ever met Mr. Ormon?

17· ·A.· ·I can't recall if we've said pleasantries at a match

18· · · · or not.

19· ·Q.· ·Do you recall seeing Mr. Ormon at matches?

20· ·A.· ·I can't recall if I have.

21· ·Q.· ·You mentioned last week that -- you used the term

22· · · · admin when we talked about some pages.· What Facebook

23· · · · pages have you been the admin on?

24· ·A.· ·Admin?· KY Shooters, Sig P320 Universe.· That's about

25· · · · all I can recall off the top of my head.

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·1· ·Q.· ·From your understanding of the admin role, what is an

·2· · · · admin on a Facebook page?

·3· ·A.· ·I don't really understand the difference between an

·4· · · · admin and a mod.

·5· ·Q.· ·When you say mod, is that short for moderator, or what

·6· · · · does mod mean?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes, moderator.

·8· ·Q.· ·We talked last week about a communication between you

·9· · · · and Mr. Mekosh where Mr. Mekosh indicated that Double

10· · · · Alfalfa wanted to shoot with you guys.· Did that ever

11· · · · happen?

12· ·A.· ·I don't believe so.

13· ·Q.· ·And what pages, Facebook pages are you a mod on?

14· ·A.· ·USPSA Unofficial I think was the name of it, a page

15· · · · that Brad made.· Multiple universe pages that David

16· · · · Black made.· And I believe that's it.

17· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Mekosh ever give you access to the Hoffer

18· · · · page?

19· ·A.· ·No, not that I recall.· But I'm pretty certain no.

20· ·Q.· ·And were you ever an admin or a mod on the Double

21· · · · Alfalfa page?

22· ·A.· ·No, unless they made me one without my knowledge, but.

23· ·Q.· ·Has anyone ever told you that Mr. Ormon was Double

24· · · · Alfalfa?

25· ·A.· ·No.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And I think you told us last week that your belief

·2· · · · that Mr. Ormon is Double Alfalfa is because Mr. Ormon

·3· · · · posted a picture of himself I think fishing on the

·4· · · · page, is that right?

·5· ·A.· ·Correct.

·6· ·Q.· ·And I think you mentioned that was the spring of this

·7· · · · year, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·That might have -- that might have been incorrect.

·9· · · · Spring or summer.· It was after my discovery was sent

10· · · · in.

11· ·Q.· ·Did you exchange any private messages with Double

12· · · · Alfalfa?

13· ·A.· ·I believe so.

14· ·Q.· ·And those private messages with Double Alfalfa, did

15· · · · they relate to the Akai contingency program?

16· ·A.· ·I would have to see them.· I can't recall what they

17· · · · were specifically about.

18· ·Q.· ·What do you recall if anything you communicated with

19· · · · Double Alfalfa about through private message?

20· ·A.· ·Specifics, I can't recall any of them.

21· ·Q.· ·Do you have any knowledge as to whether Double Alfalfa

22· · · · is controlled by one or more persons?

23· ·A.· ·I do not.

24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Let's go to Exhibit Number 23.

25· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 23 was marked

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

·2· ·BY MR. YEE:

·3· ·Q.· ·This is a conversation between you and Mr. Mekosh,

·4· · · · correct?

·5· ·A.· ·It appears to be.

·6· ·Q.· ·Let me show you the whole thing.

·7· · · · · · · · · ·Mr. Mekosh on Page 1 of Exhibit 23 says the

·8· · · · world would be better without him, and shame Hitler

·9· · · · didn't find his family.· Do you see that?

10· ·A.· ·I do.

11· ·Q.· ·You say probably did, but they lied and said that they

12· · · · weren't Jews.· Do you see that?

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·Q.· ·What is this comment referring to, do you know?

15· ·A.· ·I do not.

16· ·Q.· ·You don't know what you were saying here?

17· ·A.· ·No, I thought you meant what he was saying.· It looks

18· · · · like an off color joke that Mr. Mekosh made, and I

19· · · · just replied what was said there, that Hitler probably

20· · · · did find his family, but they said they weren't Jews.

21· ·Q.· ·Did you find this comment appropriate in any way?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· And completely unrelated to

25· · · · the scope of discovery.· You're asking for an opinion.

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·1· · · · This is not appropriate deposition inquiry.

·2· ·BY MR. YEE:

·3· ·Q.· ·Later on in this conversation you seem to indicate to

·4· · · · Mr. Mekosh Hitler meltdown but for Akai.· Do you see

·5· · · · that?

·6· ·A.· ·I do.

·7· ·Q.· ·What do you mean here?

·8· ·A.· ·Have you not seen the Hitler from Downfall videos

·9· · · · where they dub over them with jokes about what is

10· · · · going on?· Have you not seen them?· No?

11· ·Q.· ·You also seem to indicate, sir, sales seem to be down,

12· · · · Honcho and Atlas are outselling us.· It's okay, we

13· · · · have the contingency angle.· Do you see that?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·When it says here contingency angle, you're referring

16· · · · to the issue that Mr. Luke Cao had with the Akai

17· · · · contingency program, correct?

18· ·A.· ·Correct.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicate that we have the contingency

20· · · · angle.· What did you mean by angle?

21· ·A.· ·I don't know what I meant by angle back then.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Page 3 of Exhibit 23 you say, I'm not saying

23· · · · the Natzis are okay, I'm just saying maybe the wrong

24· · · · side won.· Do you see that?

25· ·A.· ·I do.

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·1· ·Q.· ·What do you mean by that?

·2· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.· And I would

·3· · · · like to reassert the objection regarding the

·4· · · · relevancy.· I think this is objectionable under Rule

·5· · · · 26A.· And quite frankly I'm trying to see what even

·6· · · · remote connection this has to the issues in this

·7· · · · lawsuit.· So go ahead and answer.

·8· ·A.· ·Once again, another off-color joke.

·9· ·BY MR. YEE:

10· ·Q.· ·And then on Page 4 you say to Mr. Mekosh, Seinfeld

11· · · · must.· Do you see that?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·What do you mean by that?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Same objection.· I'm just

15· · · · going to make it a standing objection with respect to

16· · · · any discussions regarding Hitler or Judaism.

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· And I will join counsel on

18· · · · that.

19· ·A.· ·I'm assuming I'm referring to the Seinfeld TV show.

20· · · · As to what specifically, I don't know.

21· ·BY MR. YEE:

22· ·Q.· ·When you say that these are off-color comments, do you

23· · · · mean that these are racist comments?

24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.· Don't

25· · · · answer the question.

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·1· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

·2· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· And, counsel, the witness

·3· ·voluntarily came back for a second day of deposition

·4· ·today.· We're already beyond seven hours of deposing

·5· ·him.

·6· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· I don't believe we're beyond

·7· ·seven hours, Kevin.

·8· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· We spent six hours last

·9· ·week.· We've spent an hour this morning.

10· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· But you're including break time

11· ·and things like that.

12· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· And the entirety of that

13· ·time was spent by you asking questions, of which

14· ·Mr. Benford commented last time that the other parties

15· ·are entitled to a portion of the time to ask

16· ·questions.

17· · · · · · · What I'm saying right now is the witness

18· ·voluntarily came back for a second day of deposition,

19· ·and to the extent that you're going to spend time

20· ·harassing him, I'm going to instruct him not to

21· ·answer.

22· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· I don't understand how this is

23· ·harassing him.· I have a right to understand what his

24· ·comments are between Mr. Mekosh and some of the other

25· ·parties involved in this case.

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·1· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· If those comments relate

·2· ·even remotely to the subject matter of the lawsuit,

·3· ·which these don't.· This particular witness was

·4· ·dismissed from the lawsuit.· This has nothing to do

·5· ·with KKM or Shooters Connection.

·6· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Or the Third Reich.· I mean,

·7· ·you know.

·8· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· And for the record, Kevin, when

·9· ·you say Mr. Dame volunteered, he's under subpoena

10· ·actually, and we just cut short last week because of

11· ·his work schedule.· And again, we didn't spend six

12· ·hours last week.· You failed to accommodate or to

13· ·account for breaks and things like that, so --

14· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· So we spent five-and-a-half

15· ·hours, of which you took the entirety of the

16· ·five-and-a-half hours.

17· · · · · · · Again, the point remains, don't harass the

18· ·witness.· I'll instruct him not to answer.

19· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· I join in those instructions

20· ·also.

21· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· Actually that's all I have.

22· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· John, before you pick up and

23· ·start questioning, can we take about, I don't know, 10

24· ·or 15 minutes for a break?

25· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Yes, that's great.

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·(Brief recess.)

·2· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Good morning, Mr. Dame, my

·3· · · · name is John Benford, and I represent Shooters

·4· · · · Connection, Inc. in this lawsuit.

·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·You had testified that your occupation is a CMC

·8· · · · machinist?

·9· ·A.· ·Charlie-November-Charlie.

10· ·Q.· ·CNC, sorry.· And what does CNC mean?

11· ·A.· ·Computerized numerical control.

12· ·Q.· ·And typically what does a CNC machine do?

13· ·A.· ·Cuts whatever you want it to in any direction you tell

14· · · · it to.· It's mostly metal work, metal they cut.· They

15· · · · make wood routers, they make crafting Crickets that

16· · · · scrapbookers use.· It's the same technology.· It's a

17· · · · cutter that you control actually the Y and Z axes to

18· · · · make shapes.· You can either use it to do really

19· · · · complex machining, or you can use it to cut, you know,

20· · · · construction paper.

21· ·Q.· ·So basically you're milling and cutting steel as part

22· · · · of a manufacturing process?

23· ·A.· ·Yes, I use it as a mill.

24· ·Q.· ·And how long have you been doing this?

25· ·A.· ·25 years -- well, 26 years.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And what -- the company you work for, I'm sorry, what

·2· · · · is the name again?

·3· ·A.· ·AV Gauge and Fixtures.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what do they make?

·5· ·A.· ·They make gauges and fixtures for automotive,

·6· · · · aerospace, and industrial -- not industrial, appliance

·7· · · · applications.

·8· ·Q.· ·How long have you been involved in competition

·9· · · · shooting?

10· ·A.· ·Way too long to be as bad as I am.· 20 years. I

11· · · · started competition pistol shooting in '99.· I was

12· · · · shooting competitive rifle in 1996.

13· ·Q.· ·Let me just clarify.· How long have you been involved

14· · · · in competition pistol shooting?

15· ·A.· ·So it would be 23 -- 23 years -- almost 23 years to

16· · · · the date.

17· ·Q.· ·I think your testimony was you don't participate in

18· · · · competition shooting any more?

19· ·A.· ·I still compete, I'm just shooting --

20· ·Q.· ·I just -- sorry.· I didn't mean to speak over you.

21· · · · You don't participate that much any more in

22· · · · competition pistol shooting, correct?

23· ·A.· ·Not at the level that I used to, no.· I still shoot

24· · · · maybe one or two matches a month.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So was there a time period where you would

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·1· · · · frequently participate in competition pistol shooting?

·2· ·A.· ·That would be an understatement, yes.· There was a

·3· · · · time where I was known as a match whore.· I would go

·4· · · · anywhere -- anywhere I could, two or three majors a

·5· · · · weekend.

·6· ·Q.· ·And what was this time period, if you recall?

·7· ·A.· ·Late 2000's, early 2000 teens was my highest activity.

·8· ·Q.· ·Prior to the early -- well, let's see.· Early 2000's

·9· · · · to the late 2000 teens?

10· ·A.· ·No early -- early 2000's -- sorry, late 2000's to

11· · · · early 2000 teens.· Mid 2000 teens is when I was

12· · · · traveling the most.

13· ·Q.· ·So prior to the early 2000's, how frequently did you

14· · · · participate in competition pistol shooting?

15· ·A.· ·Weekly matches at my home club, one or two monthly

16· · · · matches in Michigan.· It wasn't until 2004, 2005 when

17· · · · I started traveling all over the country going to

18· · · · world championships and whatnot.

19· ·Q.· ·And this lasted until the early 2000 teens?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.· I started tapering off 2015, 2016.

21· ·Q.· ·Now, when you were participating in competition

22· · · · shooting, was this in the USPSA?

23· ·A.· ·USPSA and IPSC.

24· ·Q.· ·And I believe you also testified that you participated

25· · · · in I guess a Canadian version of the USPSA?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes, that would be the VIPSC.

·2· ·Q.· ·And have you won awards in competition pistol

·3· · · · shooting?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Approximately how many?

·6· ·A.· ·A couple few dozen.

·7· ·Q.· ·I believe you mentioned that you attained a rank in

·8· · · · several of these organizations?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·And what rank was that again?

11· ·A.· ·Grand master.

12· ·Q.· ·Is that the highest rank?

13· ·A.· ·It is, but unofficially there is like two levels of

14· · · · grand master.· There is like the pro shooters, we call

15· · · · them -- like I refer to them as like an upper case G

16· · · · and a lower case G.· I was the highest rank, but there

17· · · · were better shooters in that rank.

18· ·Q.· ·When did you attain the rank of grand master in the

19· · · · Canadian version of the USPSA?

20· ·A.· ·The Canadian system I was a GM early 2000's, mid

21· · · · 2000's.

22· ·Q.· ·And when did you attain the rank of grand master in

23· · · · the USPSA?

24· ·A.· ·Shortly after I moved.· So 2015 or '16 I believe.

25· ·Q.· ·Do you have experience repairing guns?

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·1· ·A.· ·Limited, but I have, yes, I have worked on pistols.

·2· ·Q.· ·What types of repairs have you performed?

·3· ·A.· ·Putting in a new slide, modifying slides, putting

·4· · · · slides onto frame, the top part of the gun, fitting

·5· · · · safeties for people.

·6· ·Q.· ·What repairs have you sent to gunsmiths to perform?

·7· ·A.· ·Anything related to fitting barrels as I don't have

·8· · · · training on it, and there is a lot that can go wrong.

·9· ·Q.· ·What types of things can go wrong in fitting barrels?

10· ·A.· ·You have your forward lock up, you have your forward

11· · · · locking lugs can be fit wrong, your vertical impact

12· · · · face can be cut wrong, your -- the hood link can be

13· · · · cut wrong, your overall timing can be off.· It's one

14· · · · of those things where I don't know what I don't know,

15· · · · so I let a professional handle it.

16· ·Q.· ·What professional gunsmiths have you worked with?

17· ·A.· ·I send my barrels to Pat Rafferty to get fit.· That's

18· · · · the only one.

19· ·Q.· ·Have you ever built any guns?

20· ·A.· ·I've built one for myself like from the ground up.

21· · · · I've done some slide frame fits for friends.· I've

22· · · · done the one I mentioned with the half gun where I

23· · · · took an existing pistol, ripped the frame off and fit

24· · · · a new frame to it.

25· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz ever seek your advice on any

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·1· · · · manufacturing issues?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·And what advice did he seek?

·4· ·A.· ·He would just send me pictures of setups, machining

·5· · · · ideas he had for slides, how to mass produce his comps

·6· · · · better.· He sent me stuff on his magwells.· I gave him

·7· · · · an insight on how do to the magwells better so that

·8· · · · the two -- the way he was initially doing it, the two

·9· · · · really key parts of it were being done in separate

10· · · · operations, so the chances of them not being in

11· · · · relation to each other was high.· So I showed him how

12· · · · to do it so that the only important parts were in

13· · · · relation to each other.· That was the exhibit that was

14· · · · brought up.

15· ·Q.· ·In addition to the setups, the machining ideas, the

16· · · · magwells, do you recall anything else on which

17· · · · Mr. Horowitz sought your advice?

18· ·A.· ·I don't recall, no.

19· ·Q.· ·Do you know why Mr. Horowitz was seeking your advice?

20· ·A.· ·Because he -- I'd assume because he knew my machining

21· · · · experience was vastly greater than his.

22· ·Q.· ·What types of guns -- I'm sorry, what types of pistols

23· · · · have you used in competition shooting?

24· ·A.· ·The majority 2011, 1911 platform.

25· ·Q.· ·What manufacturers or builders have you used?

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·1· ·A.· ·I've used Pare Ordnance, STI, which is now Staccato

·2· · · · now I guess, and Infinity, as well as my own, you

·3· · · · know, half-breed guns culled from different things.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can you repeat the first one?

·5· ·A.· ·Para Ordnance.

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can you spell that?

·7· ·A.· ·P-a-r-a O-r-d-n-a-n-c-e.

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Thank you.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·In addition to those gun makes you identified, what

11· · · · gun makes have you fired, not necessarily competition,

12· · · · but just fired for other reasons?

13· ·A.· ·Numerous guns.· Any time I see something that looks

14· · · · different or somebody has one that intrigues me, I ask

15· · · · if I can shoot it.· I've shot Akais, Atlases,

16· · · · Raffertys.· I haven't shot a Venom.· I've shot a

17· · · · Carne, I don't know the right way to pronounce it.

18· · · · I've shot a Jones, Ryan Spencer, Millennium.· I've

19· · · · shot numerous makes and manufacturers.

20· ·Q.· ·When you were competing in competition pistol shooting

21· · · · frequently, two majors a week, who how many rounds

22· · · · would you typically fire every month including in

23· · · · competition and practice?

24· ·A.· ·I purposely never kept track of that, because I knew

25· · · · if I did, I'd probably have second thoughts on the

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·1· · · · amount of money I was spending.· Rough estimate, I

·2· · · · mean, a typical match would be 150 rounds.· Two of

·3· · · · those on the weekend plus practice sessions.· So call

·4· · · · it 500 rounds a weekend like easily, 50,000 plus in a

·5· · · · year.· So total life span I don't think a couple

·6· · · · hundred thousand to half a million would be that far

·7· · · · off, if not higher when you throw in just shooting to

·8· · · · shoot.

·9· ·Q.· ·So you estimate approximately when you were competing

10· · · · heavily in the competition shooting, you would go

11· · · · through approximately 500 rounds per week?

12· ·A.· ·On average I think that would be a good estimate.

13· ·Q.· ·Does competition shooting in your experience place a

14· · · · lot of stress on guns?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·What parts are typically stressed?

17· ·A.· ·Slide, barrel, slide stop.· It all depends on how --

18· · · · if it's built wrong, I guess there would be stress in

19· · · · places where there is not supposed to be stress, but I

20· · · · would say the most would be on the barrel lockup

21· · · · areas.

22· ·Q.· ·What is the barrel lockup area?

23· ·A.· ·Like the upper and lower lugs, the hood, and the -- I

24· · · · don't know the terminology.· The front of the barrel

25· · · · where it locates itself on the front of the slide.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Have you seen barrels fail during competition

·2· · · · shooting?

·3· ·A.· ·I have.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what types of failures have you witnessed?

·5· ·A.· ·I've seen the rib on an island barrel get completely

·6· · · · blown off of the barrel.· I've seen barrels crack.

·7· · · · I've seen barrels explode from squid loads.· Lugs

·8· · · · breaking, like lower lugs breaking completely off or

·9· · · · just cracking a little.· Just pretty much all the

10· · · · possibilities.

11· ·Q.· ·In your experience why do barrels fail?

12· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, foundation.· Go ahead

13· · · · and answer if you can.

14· ·A.· ·Multiple reasons.· User error, double loading, or them

15· · · · getting the squid where the round doesn't leave the

16· · · · barrel and firing another one behind it.· Improper

17· · · · fitting.· A bad part, you know, that happens now and

18· · · · then.

19· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·As far as a bad part, do you mean a poorly

21· · · · manufactured barrel?

22· ·A.· ·Yes, sometimes like a part will get out of quality

23· · · · control.· That happens at our shop every now and then,

24· · · · but then we go and fix it.

25· ·Q.· ·And as far as barrels that you're aware of that were

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·1· · · · poorly manufactured or as you say were outside of

·2· · · · quality control, who was the manufacturer, do you

·3· · · · recall?

·4· ·A.· ·Specifically?· You know, Infinity has had an issue now

·5· · · · and then.· I'm sure every barrel manufacturer has had,

·6· · · · you know, one thing come out every now and then, but

·7· · · · there has never been a known manufacturer to not go

·8· · · · to.

·9· ·Q.· ·Is there what you would describe as a competition in

10· · · · the shooting community among competition pistol

11· · · · shooters?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·All right.· And these would be shooters who regularly

14· · · · compete in competition shooting, right?

15· ·A.· ·Yes, yes, like the people that go to -- there is -- in

16· · · · my mind there's two levels of shooters, there's the

17· · · · guy that just does it in his home club, doesn't really

18· · · · go anywhere.· And then there is another group that

19· · · · will travel, you know, hours to shoot any level of

20· · · · match.

21· ·Q.· ·So would the -- does the competition shooting

22· · · · community also include manufacturers or sellers of

23· · · · firearms and parts?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.· Well, I mean, they're the ones that make money

25· · · · off of me, so they usually have a presence, or they're

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·1· · · · also shooters.

·2· ·Q.· ·Would you consider KKM and Shooters Connection part of

·3· · · · this competition shooting community?

·4· ·A.· ·I would consider Shooters Connection more so just

·5· · · · because I've known of that company since I've started.

·6· · · · KKM, yes, they're part of it because they make

·7· · · · components for us, they've sponsored matches, so

·8· · · · they're part of it as well.· I don't think -- go

·9· · · · ahead.

10· ·Q.· ·No, no, go ahead.

11· ·A.· ·I don't recall them having the same sponsorship

12· · · · presence in the past as Shooters Connection, but they

13· · · · might not have been around as much -- as long, so.

14· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry.· Go ahead and finish your answer.

15· ·A.· ·I don't know how long that company has been around,

16· · · · so.

17· ·Q.· ·Would you also consider Akai and Shay Horowitz part of

18· · · · this competition shooting community?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·What is your opinion as to the quality of Akai guns?

21· ·A.· ·My opinion is his guns are built to the lowest quality

22· · · · that he can get away with getting top dollar for.

23· ·Q.· ·And are there others in the competition shooting

24· · · · community that share your opinion?

25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.· Yes, there are.

·2· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·3· ·Q.· ·Sorry.

·4· ·A.· ·I was just answering in case I got cut off.· Yes,

·5· · · · there are.

·6· ·Q.· ·Have you ever had the opportunity to look at an Akai

·7· · · · gun?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·And when was that?

10· ·A.· ·The most recent one would have been last summer --

11· · · · last summer or start of fall, Ryan Conley's gold

12· · · · nitride optic gun.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And prior to that when would have been the

14· · · · prior?

15· ·A.· ·Michael Gnyra's gun.

16· ·Q.· ·G-n-y-r-a?

17· ·A.· ·Yes, the name who no one seems to know how to

18· · · · pronounce.· Tim Mekosh's gun.· I can't recall like

19· · · · specifically any other ones from him.

20· ·Q.· ·Do you recall approximately when you would have first

21· · · · looked at an Akai gun?

22· ·A.· ·Mid 2000's, mid 2000 teens.

23· ·Q.· ·And what are some of the things that you observed when

24· · · · you inspected Akai guns?

25· ·A.· ·The Ryan Conley one in particular was incredibly

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·1· · · · loosely fit, not what I expect at that price point.

·2· · · · Usually the hallmarks were poor machining, like you

·3· · · · can see where a cutter was overloaded, and when it was

·4· · · · supposed to be a straight line for a detailed cut, it

·5· · · · kind of kicked over to the side.· Overall, yes, just

·6· · · · build quality and aesthetics weren't really there from

·7· · · · a machining aspect, but most people don't really look

·8· · · · at that.

·9· ·Q.· ·When you say loose parts, do you mean poorly fit

10· · · · barrels?

11· ·A.· ·Barrels, slide to frame fit.· That's -- when someone

12· · · · says a loose gun, those are the three parts that

13· · · · aren't fit tightly.

14· ·Q.· ·Barrels, and then, I'm sorry, slide to frame is

15· · · · another one?

16· ·A.· ·Correct.

17· ·Q.· ·When you have loose barrels and loose slides to frame,

18· · · · can this cause issues with respect to the functioning

19· · · · of the gun?

20· ·A.· ·Loose, not necessarily.· Loose and incorrect, yes.

21· ·Q.· ·Have you ever fired any Akai guns?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·And what did you observe when you fired the guns?

24· ·A.· ·Nothing out of the ordinary.· They function.· I mean,

25· · · · it's not hard to make a gun that functions for one or

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·1· · · · two rounds -- like one or five rounds when someone is

·2· · · · just messing around.· It's -- the true test is how

·3· · · · well it holds up to a season.

·4· ·Q.· ·Is it your understanding that Akai uses a tungsten

·5· · · · sleeve?

·6· ·A.· ·When asked and if provided.

·7· ·Q.· ·What is your opinion of the tungsten sleeve?

·8· ·A.· ·I think it's a gimmick.· Yes, the density of tungsten

·9· · · · is more than steel, but in order to get that weight

10· · · · onto the barrel, you need to machine the barrel, thus

11· · · · removing weight that was initially there.· So if you

12· · · · have, you know, your sleeve -- you're saying if your

13· · · · sleeve weighs four pounds, you're not really adding

14· · · · four pounds to the gun because you had to take weight

15· · · · off to turn your minimum diameter down and then put

16· · · · your threads on.· So you turn your max diameter and

17· · · · add the threads, so that removes weight, and that

18· · · · gives you another part that can fail.· And in reality

19· · · · I don't think there would be a -- what's the term,

20· · · · that the juice is worth the squeeze on that.

21· ·Q.· ·It is your understanding that the tungsten sleeve

22· · · · increases the likelihood of components failing?

23· ·A.· ·Well, if it's not -- if it's not mounted properly,

24· · · · yes.· But the sleeve itself is another fail point,

25· · · · another thing that can go wrong.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Does it typically shorten the life of a pistol?

·2· ·A.· ·I don't know.

·3· ·Q.· ·Does it make the barrel wear out quicker?

·4· ·A.· ·The theory would be with tungsten, the barrel itself

·5· · · · wouldn't wear quicker, but because the tungsten is

·6· · · · harder, where the barrel contacts -- where that

·7· · · · contacts the slide would wear sooner because it's

·8· · · · harder material.

·9· ·Q.· ·And do you know if it weakens the slide?

10· ·A.· ·It shouldn't weaken the slide if it's just on the

11· · · · barrel.

12· ·Q.· ·Have other shooters in the competition shooting

13· · · · community expressed negative opinions regarding the

14· · · · tungsten sleeve?

15· ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

16· ·Q.· ·Is it regarded as a difficult thing to manufacture?

17· ·A.· ·Yes, tungsten is not the easiest thing to cut.· Due to

18· · · · the strength you need diamond cutters.

19· ·Q.· ·Are you aware of a lot of gun manufacturers that use a

20· · · · tungsten sleeve?

21· ·A.· ·Not really.· The main one that I'm aware of is Shay.

22· ·Q.· ·Why don't you use a tungsten sleeve?

23· ·A.· ·I like what is known as an island barrel where you put

24· · · · a cut across the top of the slide and get your weight

25· · · · by having a barrel rib stick up, and that allows you

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·1· · · · to measure your front sights on the barrel, and you

·2· · · · can't do a sleeve on that.

·3· ·Q.· ·Is it common for shooters in the competition shooting

·4· · · · community to discuss the quality of guns and parts?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·And is it common for them to discuss the quality of

·7· · · · guns and parts that are made by other manufacturers or

·8· · · · sold by sellers in the competition shooting community?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·Is it also typical for members of the competition

11· · · · shooting community to discuss these issues on various

12· · · · websites?

13· ·A.· ·Yes.· I mean, the Brian Enos page has a specific area

14· · · · just for discussing gun parts that people may want to

15· · · · use.

16· ·Q.· ·What is Akai's reputation in the competition shooting

17· · · · community for the quality of its guns and gun parts?

18· · · · I believe you testified that the reputation was poor,

19· · · · correct?

20· ·A.· ·Correct.

21· ·Q.· ·And you also testified that others shared this

22· · · · opinion?

23· ·A.· ·Correct.

24· ·Q.· ·So when did you first become aware of Akai's poor

25· · · · reputation for quality manufacturing?

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·1· ·A.· ·Mid to early 2000 teen's I believe.

·2· ·Q.· ·And have customers or owners of Akai guns or gun parts

·3· · · · expressed these negative opinions?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Have gunsmiths expressed these negative opinions?

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Who is Mike Gnyra?

·8· ·A.· ·He is an ex-team member of Shooters Connection, and

·9· · · · one of my friends that I used to have.

10· ·Q.· ·And when you say used to have, why do you say that?

11· ·A.· ·Women.· They get in the way of life, right?· And we

12· · · · had a falling out.

13· ·Q.· ·Why did you have a falling out?

14· ·A.· ·He decided to start dating a girl I recently had

15· · · · broken up with.

16· ·Q.· ·Is he an active shooter?

17· ·A.· ·That's a bad term these days.· Was he active --

18· ·Q.· ·Yes, was he an active competitor in competition pistol

19· · · · shooting?

20· ·A.· ·That's a better term.· Yes.· Yes, he was actually a

21· · · · better shooter than I was.· I haven't seen him at

22· · · · majors that I've been paying attention to as of late.

23· ·Q.· ·When you say better shooter, do you think -- is it

24· · · · your understanding that he's won more matches?

25· ·A.· ·Than I, yes.· Head to head he's bested me more than

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·1· · · · I've bested him.

·2· ·Q.· ·Has he been shooting longer than you?

·3· ·A.· ·I don't think he has.

·4· ·Q.· ·And you testified that he is a former member of the

·5· · · · Akai shooting team?

·6· ·A.· ·To the best of my knowledge, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·I'm assuming he used Akai pistols, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·When he shot for them, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·And I believe it's your testimony that he owned Akai

10· · · · pistols?

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·Q.· ·And when did he leave the Akai shooting team?

13· ·A.· ·Sometime in the last few years I started noticing that

14· · · · the Akai logo was gone from his jersey at matches.

15· ·Q.· ·Did you start noticing this prior to October of 2019?

16· ·A.· ·I believe it was after that.

17· ·Q.· ·Did he indicate to you why he left?

18· ·A.· ·We weren't really on speaking terms at that point.

19· ·Q.· ·And when was your falling out again with Mr. Gnyra?

20· ·A.· ·2016, 2017 I believe.

21· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Gnyra ever express anything negative to you

22· · · · about Akai or Shay Horowitz?

23· ·A.· ·Yes, on multiple occasions.

24· ·Q.· ·What kinds of things did he express?

25· ·A.· ·He wasn't happy with the gun -- well, his sponsorship,

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·1· · · · the way it was worth what he got gun-wise.· He wasn't

·2· · · · happy with the gun that he got.· I believe it was a

·3· · · · single stack.· When he got it, the magazine wouldn't

·4· · · · even go in the gun because the trigger bow was bent,

·5· · · · which means the gun wasn't even test fired before it

·6· · · · was sent to him.

·7· · · · · · · · · ·He contacted me asking me if tungsten was

·8· · · · supposed to be magnetic because he didn't think that

·9· · · · he had a tungsten sleeve on his gun, and it turned out

10· · · · that after repeatedly questioning Shay, he finally

11· · · · admitted that, yes, that is not a tungsten sleeve on

12· · · · that gun.

13· · · · · · · · · ·He didn't like the fact that Shay was

14· · · · charging an expedite fee, but there wasn't really a

15· · · · build list, so if you paid the expedite fee, you

16· · · · weren't really jumping ahead on the list because there

17· · · · wasn't a list.

18· · · · · · · · · ·He mentioned it was the team members that

19· · · · forced him to implement a quality control system that

20· · · · was never there before.· And he wasn't pleased with

21· · · · the certs he had to give to match directors for match

22· · · · sponsorship slots.

23· ·Q.· ·Did he ever mention to you that he had a slide that

24· · · · cracked?

25· ·A.· ·Oh, to me, no.· I heard that through a third party

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·1· · · · that he sent a gun in to get a new slide, and it came

·2· · · · back the wrong -- it was a 40 caliber gun, and a

·3· · · · 9 millimeter slide was fit to it.

·4· ·Q.· ·And who is the third party you heard that from?

·5· ·A.· ·Tim Mekosh.

·6· ·Q.· ·And when was that?· When did you -- when did

·7· · · · Mr. Mekosh discuss this slide that had cracked?

·8· ·A.· ·That's been in the last couple of years, I would say

·9· · · · after 2019 would be a rough guess.

10· ·Q.· ·When you talk about Gnyra, Mr. Gnyra expressing these

11· · · · multiple issues that he had, including the magazine

12· · · · that would not fit, when did Mr. Gnyra communicate

13· · · · that to you?

14· ·A.· ·When he first started shooting for the team.· So

15· · · · 2000 -- around 2015 to '17, somewhere in that realm.

16· ·Q.· ·And when Mr. Gnyra discussed this issue about Akai not

17· · · · testing its guns, when was that?

18· ·A.· ·That was around the same time frame.

19· ·Q.· ·When Mr. Gnyra mentioned the quality control issue,

20· · · · when was that?

21· ·A.· ·Same time frame.

22· ·Q.· ·2015, '16?

23· ·A.· ·Or '14, somewhere around that.

24· ·Q.· ·Was there ever an issue with the trigger not being

25· · · · fitted correctly?

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·2· ·A.· ·That was -- I was told by Mike that was like a running

·3· · · · joke on the Akai team, the very first thing you had to

·4· · · · do when you got your team gun was to redo the trigger.

·5· · · · Mr. Mekosh expressed the same thing about the trigger

·6· · · · in the gun that he got from Shay.

·7· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·8· ·Q.· ·When did Mr. Gnyra and Mr. Mekosh describe these

·9· · · · issues to you?

10· ·A.· ·2015'ish.

11· ·Q.· ·And when did they characterize this issue as a running

12· · · · joke on the Akai team?

13· ·A.· ·It would have been 2015, 2016'ish.

14· ·Q.· ·And did they say what Akai team members shared in this

15· · · · running joke?

16· ·A.· ·He didn't specifically say.· He did mention like Scott

17· · · · Thompson would also say it, but not in public.

18· ·Q.· ·The issue regarding sponsorship certs, what exactly

19· · · · did that relate to?

20· ·A.· ·That was what I mentioned earlier.· In order to get a

21· · · · free spot for sponsoring a match, you need to provide

22· · · · something to the match director, either cash or

23· · · · product to a certain value.· So to game that system,

24· · · · Shay would provide certificates for a free gun

25· · · · inspection, and he would value that certificate at I

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·1· · · · believe 100 or $150.· So if you needed to provide $500

·2· · · · in cash or product to get a sponsorship, he would just

·3· · · · have to give, you know, three or four of those

·4· · · · certificates that really nobody wanted.· That way he

·5· · · · can get his shooter in for free and not really be out

·6· · · · of pocket anything.

·7· ·Q.· ·And how did you become aware of this issue?

·8· ·A.· ·I don't recall how I became aware of that.

·9· ·Q.· ·Were there others aware of this issue?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

12· ·A.· ·Yes, I wasn't the only one that knew about this,

13· · · · because I would have heard about it through

14· · · · scuttlebutt I'm assuming.

15· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

16· ·Q.· ·Now you were asked a fair amount of questions

17· · · · regarding Tim Mekosh?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Is Mr. Mekosh a competitive shooter?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·How active is he in competition shooting?

22· ·A.· ·Less active than me now.· Around the same time, like

23· · · · early -- mid 2000 teens he was just as active as I

24· · · · was.· If I was traveling somewhere, he usually

25· · · · traveled with me.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Does he hold a rank?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·What rank is that?

·4· ·A.· ·He was a grand master in open and a master in limited

·5· · · · I believe.· He was a GM in one and an M in the other.

·6· ·Q.· ·Would you say he's well-known in the competition

·7· · · · shooting community?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes, just as known as I was.

·9· ·Q.· ·Would you say he's well-respected as a shooter in the

10· · · · competition shooting community?

11· ·A.· ·As a shooter?· I would say so.· He was a pretty good

12· · · · shooter.

13· ·Q.· ·So I'm assuming that based on your prior testimony

14· · · · that Mr. Mekosh has expressed numerous negative

15· · · · opinions regarding Akai and Shay Horowitz?

16· ·A.· ·He has.

17· ·Q.· ·And has he expressed those opinions prior to October

18· · · · of 2019?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·What types of things did he express prior to October

21· · · · of 2019?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.· Go ahead.

23· ·A.· ·That on the issues that he had, when he ordered a gun

24· · · · through Shay, he made a deposit, and then Shay

25· · · · misplacing or forgetting that the deposit ever took

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·1· · · · place.· Not getting the part that he specifically

·2· · · · requested on his gun, the gun taking longer than it

·3· · · · was supposed to, having to replace the trigger once

·4· · · · he -- within a couple weeks of getting the gun.

·5· · · · Shay's attitude toward his customers in conversations

·6· · · · with him.· Shay's actions towards other people in the

·7· · · · industry.· That's about it.

·8· ·Q.· ·As far as the misplaced deposit, what did Mr. Mekosh

·9· · · · tell you?

10· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

11· ·A.· ·He told me he gave him cash for the gun in person, and

12· · · · then a few months later when it came time for the

13· · · · build, Shay said he never got any money from him.

14· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

15· ·Q.· ·Did he say how much he gave him?

16· ·A.· ·I don't recall the amount that he gave him.

17· ·Q.· ·What did he tell you with regard to Mr. Horowitz's

18· · · · attitude towards other shooters?

19· ·A.· ·He told me that Shay would constantly tell him that he

20· · · · felt his customers were idiots, he didn't like

21· · · · anything about any other builders, would constantly

22· · · · berate other builders.· Allegedly he passed around

23· · · · nudes of another shooter without her knowledge.

24· ·Q.· ·Are other people in the competition shooting community

25· · · · aware of these issues?

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·1· ·A.· ·To my knowledge, yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Mekosh ever talk about problems he was having

·3· · · · with a fire control system?

·4· ·A.· ·That was the -- his -- one of the main complaints was

·5· · · · as soon as he got the gun, within a week or two he had

·6· · · · to put a new trigger system, new fire control system

·7· · · · in.

·8· ·Q.· ·And did he tell you this prior to October of 2019?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·And I believe you testified that this occurred shortly

11· · · · after he purchased -- sorry, let me turn this off.

12· ·A.· ·No worries.· Would you mind if I just took a second to

13· · · · grab my water?

14· ·Q.· ·Sure.

15· · · · · · · · · ·I believe you testified that Mr. Mekosh was

16· · · · experiencing this issue with this fire control system

17· · · · shortly after he purchased this Akai gun?

18· ·A.· ·Correct.

19· ·Q.· ·And that fire control system had to be replaced?

20· ·A.· ·He said he replaced it, yes.

21· ·Q.· ·Was there an issue involving a trigger that was bent?

22· ·A.· ·Yes, he said the -- it had been thinned out to the

23· · · · point that if you pulled too hard on the trigger, it

24· · · · would bend the bow.

25· ·Q.· ·Was this issue discovered shortly after Mr. Mekosh

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·1· · · · purchased his gun?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Was there an issue Mr. Mekosh had with respect to the

·4· · · · lead time it took to build this gun?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.· He said he was constantly being told that the

·7· · · · gun was out for finishing, which once again was

·8· · · · another running joke with Akai guns.· You know, you

·9· · · · would be told the gun would be ready in X amount of

10· · · · months, and when it came to that time, oh, it's out

11· · · · for finishing, it's out for finishing.· It's out of my

12· · · · hands, it's not my problem, it's out for finishing.

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· John, if I can place a general

14· · · · objection.· Mr. Mekosh was one of the witnesses that

15· · · · we would like to schedule for a deposition, so I'm not

16· · · · quite sure why we're going down the line of

17· · · · Mr. Mekosh's issues with Mr. Dame.· You can ask these

18· · · · questions of Mr. Mekosh.

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· What's the objection?

20· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Well, most of it is hearsay.

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Well, I agree, but that's not

22· · · · an objection -- you understand in a deposition you're

23· · · · entitled to one type of objection, and that's form.

24· · · · You can also instruct a witness not to answer based

25· · · · upon a privilege, but those are the only two

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·1· ·objections that you're entitled to make during a

·2· ·deposition.

·3· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· And I objected.· You asked me

·4· ·what is the form of the objection.· I'm answering your

·5· ·question.

·6· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· You're saying the form of the

·7· ·objection is hearsay?

·8· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· Yes.

·9· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· That's an evidence objection,

10· ·it's only appropriate at trial.

11· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· What I'm indicating to you is

12· ·you're asking Mr. Dame to testify what Mr. Mekosh has

13· ·told him.· I don't understand the relevance when

14· ·Mr. Mekosh is one of the witnesses we're going to

15· ·depose.

16· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Okay.· Well, relevance is a

17· ·trial objection.· I mean, unless you believe the

18· ·question somehow oppresses or harasses or embarrasses

19· ·the witness, under 26C it's an appropriate question,

20· ·Ed.

21· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· You're eliciting testimony from a

22· ·witness that is not here today.

23· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· I understand.· And it's an

24· ·appropriate question and testimony for a deposition.

25· ·And also here's -- there is -- when you're talking

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·1· · · · about reputation, you know, testimony and testimony

·2· · · · regarding somebody's reputation, it's relevant in a

·3· · · · defamation action.· There is a hearsay exception on

·4· · · · this, 803.21.

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Guys, if we can real quick

·6· · · · on this.· Since Mr. Dame is my witness here this

·7· · · · morning, you know, Ed you said that you want to place

·8· · · · an objection for the record, please do.· And, John, to

·9· · · · the extent that you have questions that you feel you

10· · · · need to ask to the witness that are relevant to this

11· · · · suit, please ask them.· If at any point you venture

12· · · · into something that I believe goes outside the scope

13· · · · of permissible discovery, I'll instruct the witness

14· · · · not to answer.· But otherwise, you know, go on with

15· · · · your line of questioning, and, Ed, object as

16· · · · appropriate, and, Mr. Dame, you know, please answer

17· · · · unless I instruct you otherwise.

18· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And, Mr. Dame, this running joke that you're

20· · · · talking about, that related to the lead time in which

21· · · · Akai took to manufacture pistols?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·And this running joke was among members of the Akai

24· · · · shooting team?

25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·3· ·Q.· ·Was there an issue that was expressed to you by

·4· · · · Mr. Mekosh regarding a wrong grip?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.· He wanted --

·7· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·8· ·Q.· ·And what did Mr. Mekosh tell you regarding the wrong

·9· · · · grip?

10· ·A.· ·He wanted -- I believe he wanted an Infinity grip on

11· · · · the build but was not provided one.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Horowitz ever tell Mr. Mekosh that he

13· · · · hated his customers?

14· ·A.· ·According to Mr. Mekosh, yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Were other team members aware of this?

16· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

17· ·A.· ·I wouldn't know what the other team members would

18· · · · know.

19· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·Who is Brandon Bunker?

21· ·A.· ·He is a high-end gun builder from Florida.

22· ·Q.· ·Is he well-regarded in the competition shooting

23· · · · community?

24· ·A.· ·Competition?· I would say he's not really in that

25· · · · market.· He builds -- his guns will hold up for

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·1· · · · competition.· He builds just really, really nice guns,

·2· · · · custom-built guns.· I don't know if anyone uses them

·3· · · · for USPSA.

·4· ·Q.· ·Is he well-regarded in the competition shooting

·5· · · · community?

·6· ·A.· ·He is well-regarded as a gun builder, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did he ever describe Mr. Horowitz and Akai as a cancer

·8· · · · on the industry?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·Did he explain why he used that description?

11· ·A.· ·He might have, I can't recall.

12· ·Q.· ·Was it your understanding he was referring to the poor

13· · · · quality of Akai's products?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·Was he also referring to Mr. Horowitz's dishonesty?

18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

19· ·A.· ·I couldn't know one way or the other.

20· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Rafferty Custom Guns ever express --

22· · · · anybody from Rafferty Custom Guns express anything

23· · · · negative regarding Mr. Horowitz?

24· ·A.· ·Yes, the quality of the parts that he got from him.

25· ·Q.· ·And did they express this directly to you?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·And was this expressed prior to October of 2019?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·What parts did Rafferty complain about?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·A.· ·Magwells, compensators.· That's essentially the only

·7· · · · parts that he made.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·And what did Rafferty say?

10· ·A.· ·He showed me one of the comps and asked me about it,

11· · · · and the machine on it was horrendous.

12· ·Q.· ·Anything else that Rafferty would have communicated to

13· · · · you regarding the quality of Akai's parts?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

15· ·A.· ·Not specifically that I can recall.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Who is Matt Cheely?

18· ·A.· ·He is a builder and parts manufacturer out of

19· · · · Michigan.

20· ·Q.· ·And is he active in the competition shooting

21· · · · community?

22· ·A.· ·As a builder yes.· As a competitor, no longer.

23· ·Q.· ·As a builder of gun parts for guns, is he

24· · · · well-regarded?

25· ·A.· ·He is one of the most well-regarded builders at the

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·1· · · · moment.

·2· ·Q.· ·Did he ever express anything negative regarding Akai

·3· · · · or Mr. Horowitz?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·What did he say?

·8· ·A.· ·He pretty much had to put him on a cash basis for

·9· · · · components because he was tired of having to chase him

10· · · · down for the bills he owed.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with Don Fredenhagen?

12· ·A.· ·From Venom Customs, I'm familiar with him, yes.

13· ·Q.· ·And who is Mr. Fredenhagen?

14· ·A.· ·He is Venom Customs.

15· ·Q.· ·And they're a gun builder, correct?

16· ·A.· ·Correct.

17· ·Q.· ·Is Venom Customs well-regarded in the competition

18· · · · shooting community?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·Has Mr. Fredenhagen ever expressed anything negative

21· · · · to you regarding Mr. Horowitz?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

23· ·A.· ·No, he hasn't.· I've had very limited communications

24· · · · with him.

25· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

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·1· ·Q.· ·Who is Jeff Gordon?

·2· ·A.· ·Jeff Gordon is a competitive shooter from Kentucky I

·3· · · · used to shoot with.

·4· ·Q.· ·Has he ever expressed anything negative to you

·5· · · · regarding Mr. Horowitz?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·What has he said?

10· ·A.· ·Mostly, you know, quality of the parts and lack of

11· · · · character were his complaints.

12· ·Q.· ·And were these communications made prior to October of

13· · · · 2019?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Who is Bobby Keigans?

16· ·A.· ·He is -- was the owner of Freedom Customs.· He was

17· · · · another gun builder.· I forget the name of the

18· · · · company.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did he ever express anything negative to you

20· · · · regarding Mr. Horowitz?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

22· ·A.· ·To me directly, no.· But there was a pretty public

23· · · · feud between Mr. Keigans and Shay.

24· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

25· ·Q.· ·What did this public feud involve?

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·1· ·A.· ·Mostly shit talking back and forth between each other.

·2· · · · Shay complaining about him in our chat group, you

·3· · · · know, trying to get the people in the chat group to

·4· · · · disparage Mr. Keigans.· Any time he would put a video

·5· · · · up, Shay would make a comment in chat group about it.

·6· ·Q.· ·And what chat group is this?

·7· ·A.· ·The one I was in with Shay.

·8· ·Q.· ·Is there a name for it?

·9· ·A.· ·Pardon?

10· ·Q.· ·Is there a name for the chat group?

11· ·A.· ·The name constantly changed.· On some of the evidence

12· · · · things it was listed as Captain Cucks I believe.

13· ·Q.· ·Did somebody administer this chat group?

14· ·A.· ·No, no one person really administered it.· It was just

15· · · · a bunch of us gossiping and acting like idiots.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Shay Horowitz was part of this chat group?

17· ·A.· ·Correct.

18· ·Q.· ·Where you would gossip and act like idiots, correct?

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·Q.· ·And Mr. Horowitz would disparage other shooters and

21· · · · builders in this chat group, correct?

22· ·A.· ·Correct.

23· ·Q.· ·And he also asked people to disparage Mr. Keigans in

24· · · · this chat group, isn't that correct?

25· ·A.· ·He wouldn't specifically ask.· He would just, you

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·1· · · · know, post or share something from him and put it in

·2· · · · there just to show everybody I guess.

·3· ·Q.· ·So it was your recollection he was encouraging others

·4· · · · to disparage Mr. Keigans?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·8· ·Q.· ·And this occurred prior to October of 2019?

·9· ·A.· ·Correct.

10· ·Q.· ·And is Mr. Horowitz reputation as someone who

11· · · · encourages others to disparage other members of the

12· · · · competition shooting community?

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

14· ·A.· ·Repeat the question.

15· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

16· ·Q.· ·Yes.· Does he have a reputation -- does Mr. Horowitz

17· · · · have a reputation for encouraging others to disparage

18· · · · other members of the competition shooting community?

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

20· ·A.· ·He does.

21· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

22· ·Q.· ·He does, okay.

23· · · · · · · · · ·Now, you testified regarding a person

24· · · · named -- using a nickname Double Alfalfa?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·All right.· And it's your understanding this person is

·2· · · · someone named John Ormon?

·3· ·A.· ·That's my -- what's the word I'm looking for here.

·4· · · · I'm pretty certain it is.· I'm not 100 percent sure.

·5· ·Q.· ·Who is John Ormon?

·6· ·A.· ·Another competitive shooter.

·7· ·Q.· ·Is he active in the competition shooting community?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Is he a customer of Akai?

10· ·A.· ·I believe he said he was at some point.

11· ·Q.· ·And have you seen him post negative comments regarding

12· · · · Akai and Mr. Horowitz?

13· ·A.· ·Him personally?· I don't recall him doing that.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever spoken to Mr. Ormon?

15· ·A.· ·Not face-to-face that I recall, only Facebook message.

16· ·Q.· ·And you have seen negative posts -- you testified with

17· · · · respect to negative posts from the Double Alfalfa

18· · · · poster, whoever that is, correct?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·All right.· And when was the first time that you saw a

21· · · · negative post from Double Alfalfa relating to

22· · · · Mr. Horowitz?

23· ·A.· ·I can't recall the first time I saw that.

24· ·Q.· ·Who is Steve Sanders?

25· ·A.· ·A competitive shooter and owner of Precision Delta

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·1· · · · Bullets.

·2· ·Q.· ·And has he ever communicated anything negative

·3· · · · regarding Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·What has he communicated?

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·9· ·A.· ·I can't recall the specifics, just that a lot of

10· · · · people in his area weren't too happy with the guns

11· · · · they had gotten and the customer service, if I

12· · · · remember correctly.

13· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

14· ·Q.· ·What is Phoenix Trinity Firearms?

15· ·A.· ·It started as a firearms component company, and now it

16· · · · makes firearms.

17· ·Q.· ·Are they active in the competition shooting community?

18· ·A.· ·They are.

19· ·Q.· ·Are they well-regarded in the competition shooting

20· · · · community?

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·Q.· ·Have they ever expressed anything negative regarding

23· · · · Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.

25· ·Q.· ·What is that?

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·1· ·A.· ·His lack of machining knowledge, and having to chase

·2· · · · him down to pay bills.

·3· ·Q.· ·With respect to the lack of machining knowledge, what

·4· · · · do they communicate?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·A.· ·Just times when he would come and be asking Brian how

·7· · · · to machine stuff, and then not taking Brian's advice.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·And Brian, what is Brian's last name?

10· ·A.· ·Williams.

11· ·Q.· ·And he's the owner of Phoenix Trinity Firearms?

12· ·A.· ·I believe either the ownership is under his wife's

13· · · · name Tiffany or it's a joint ownership.

14· ·Q.· ·Now, you also expressed that he was having collection

15· · · · issues with Akai?

16· ·A.· ·Tiffany expressed that, yes.

17· ·Q.· ·And Tiffany is one of the owners?

18· ·A.· ·One of if not the owner.

19· ·Q.· ·Her last name is Williams?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.· It's a husband and wife team.

21· ·Q.· ·Did they say what types of parts Mr. Horowitz was

22· · · · failing to pay for?

23· ·A.· ·No, just that they had to chase him down at the World

24· · · · Shoot in Florida.

25· ·Q.· ·Where is the World Shoot located in Florida?

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·1· ·A.· ·It was at the Frostproof Range in -- just outside of

·2· · · · Sebring.

·3· ·Q.· ·When did Phoenix Trinity Firearms communicate these

·4· · · · issues to you?

·5· ·A.· ·Shortly after it, so 2015.

·6· ·Q.· ·Now, you were asked a number of questions regarding

·7· · · · Luke Cao, C-a-o, right?

·8· ·A.· ·Correct.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked questions regarding the Akai

10· · · · contingency program, correct?

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·Q.· ·And again who is Luke Cao?

13· ·A.· ·A really good competitive shooter from the Ohio area.

14· ·Q.· ·And is he very active in the competition shooting

15· · · · community?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·Is it fair to say that Luke Cao is well-known in the

18· · · · competition shooting community?

19· ·A.· ·He was, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·Did you ever speak to Mr. Cao regarding the

21· · · · contingency program?

22· ·A.· ·I did.

23· ·Q.· ·And again how did you know that he was having an

24· · · · issue?

25· ·A.· ·I don't recall specifically how I came to that

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·1· · · · knowledge.

·2· ·Q.· ·Were other shooters in the competition shooting

·3· · · · community aware of Mr. Cao's issue?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·And tell me who else was aware of this issue?

·8· ·A.· ·Specifically I wouldn't be able to list exactly who

·9· · · · knew what.· I know like from my friends that knew,

10· · · · Mr. Mekosh, Alvin, obviously John Vlieger.· Who else?

11· · · · Anybody that posted on his comments.· I don't know

12· · · · exactly who.

13· ·Q.· ·Alvin is Alvin Lin, correct?

14· ·A.· ·Correct, yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Now you were asked some questions about somebody named

16· · · · Lesgar Speedy Murdock?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·And was he on the Akai shooting team?

19· ·A.· ·He was for a while.· He was an employee for awhile I

20· · · · believe.

21· ·Q.· ·An employee of Akai?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did he leave the team?

24· ·A.· ·He left the team and quit working for him.

25· ·Q.· ·And did it occur prior to October of 2019?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·Do you know why he left the team?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·4· ·A.· ·I do not know why.· I was told by Shay that he was

·5· · · · stealing from him among other things.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·So Mr. Horowitz told you that Mr. Murdock was stealing

·8· · · · from him?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·As in stealing money?

11· ·A.· ·Stealing -- stealing ammunition that was supposed to

12· · · · be for him and selling it to his friends.· I'm trying

13· · · · to remember all of the other -- he gave me a whole

14· · · · bunch of information, because he wanted me to defame

15· · · · and discredit Speedy for it after he quit working. I

16· · · · never did.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So Mr. Horowitz wanted you to defame and

18· · · · discredit Mr. Murdock, is that correct?

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·Q.· ·And when did he ask you to defame and discredit

21· · · · Mr. Murdock?· Was it prior to October of 2019?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·And do you know why -- did he say why he wanted you to

24· · · · defame Mr. Murdock?

25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

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·1· ·A.· ·I don't recall.· I'm assuming because they left on bad

·2· · · · terms or parted ways on bad terms.

·3· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·4· ·Q.· ·When he asked you to defame Mr. Murdock, when did that

·5· · · · conversation occur?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·I don't specifically remember the exact date.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·Was it prior to October of 2019?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz appear to be vindictive?

12· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

15· ·Q.· ·Would you describe his personality as vindictive?

16· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

19· ·Q.· ·Does he have a reputation for tending to accuse other

20· · · · people of wronging him?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

24· ·Q.· ·I believe you mentioned that he had two prior PSAs

25· · · · before the October 2019 PSA regarding KKM?

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·1· ·A.· ·Specific PSAs in the same manner, no, but warnings to

·2· · · · the shooting community, yes.· One was about a specific

·3· · · · lot of Hodgdon's powder that he claimed he found was

·4· · · · causing his guns to blow up.· And then the other one

·5· · · · was a slide manufacturer that had faulty parts that

·6· · · · was causing his guns to break.

·7· ·Q.· ·Do you recall the name of the slide manufacturer?

·8· ·A.· ·I do not.

·9· ·Q.· ·And I think the other one was Hodgdon?

10· ·A.· ·Hodgdon, H-o-d-g-d-o-n.

11· ·Q.· ·And what was he saying about Hodgdon?

12· ·A.· ·Just specifically that there was a bad lot of powder

13· · · · that was causing some pressure spikes I believe was

14· · · · the complaint or the warning.

15· ·Q.· ·Do you know if there was any merit to his allegations?

16· ·A.· ·I do not know.

17· ·Q.· ·Did other members of the competition shooting

18· · · · community express any opinions regarding these two

19· · · · allegations?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·What did they say?

22· ·A.· ·They didn't notice any issues.

23· ·Q.· ·So they believed that these prior allegations were

24· · · · unfounded?

25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

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·1· ·A.· ·Correct.

·2· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·3· ·Q.· ·Now, Mr. Murdock -- when Mr. Murdock asked you to

·4· · · · defame -- I'm sorry, when Mr. Horowitz asked you to

·5· · · · defame Mr. Murdock, did you agree to do it?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·Why was that?

10· ·A.· ·Mr. Murdock never did anything to me, and I felt what

11· · · · Shay was doing was wrong.

12· ·Q.· ·Did he say what kind of information he wanted you to

13· · · · disseminate regarding Mr. Murdock?

14· ·A.· ·Just the fact that he was stealing from him, his prior

15· · · · infidelities, any -- he was really hung up on the fact

16· · · · that he felt Mr. Murdock was cheating on matches.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So in addition to accusing Mr. Murdock of

18· · · · stealing money, he accused Mr. Murdock of cheating in

19· · · · matches, is that correct?

20· ·A.· ·Correct.

21· ·Q.· ·And did he say how he was cheating in matches?

22· ·A.· ·He felt he was changing his scores on the scoring

23· · · · tablets after the fact when no one was looking, but

24· · · · there was no evidence of that.

25· ·Q.· ·Do you believe there is any merit to that accusation?

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·1· ·A.· ·I do not.

·2· ·Q.· ·Have others expressed that same opinion to you that

·3· · · · there is no merit to Mr. Horowitz's accusations that

·4· · · · Mr. Murdock was cheating?

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·8· ·Q.· ·So have others expressed to you, others in the

·9· · · · competition shooting community expressed to you that

10· · · · Mr. Horowitz's accusations regarding Mr. Murdock

11· · · · cheating are unfounded?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·You testified about somebody named Christian Sailer,

14· · · · correct?

15· ·A.· ·Correct.

16· ·Q.· ·That's S-a-i-l-e-r?

17· ·A.· ·Yes, I believe that's how you pronounce it.

18· ·Q.· ·Who is Mr. Sailer?

19· ·A.· ·Recent national champ, ex-team member of Akai.

20· ·Q.· ·So he is a fairly accomplished shooter I take it?

21· ·A.· ·Yes.· He came out of nowhere and just started winning

22· · · · pretty much everything.

23· ·Q.· ·And he is another ex-team member of Akai, correct?

24· ·A.· ·Correct.

25· ·Q.· ·When did Mr. Sailer arrive?

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·1· ·A.· ·2017 or '18 I believe.

·2· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Sailer ever express any negative opinions to

·3· · · · you regarding Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·No.· I've never actually had any conversations with

·6· · · · Mr. Sailer.

·7· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·8· ·Q.· ·Do you know why he left the team?

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

10· ·A.· ·I do not.· Rumor is his guns wouldn't stay together.

11· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

12· ·Q.· ·When you say guns, his Akai guns would not stay

13· · · · together, is that correct?

14· ·A.· ·Correct.

15· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz ever post any negative pictures

16· · · · regarding Mr. Sailer?

17· ·A.· ·Right after he quit he started posting pictures in the

18· · · · chat group implying that Christian was a homosexual.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So Mr. Horowitz after Mr. Sailer left the team,

20· · · · the Akai shooting team, Mr. Horowitz was posting

21· · · · pictures of Mr. Sailer ridiculing him for being gay,

22· · · · is that correct?

23· ·A.· ·He didn't specifically say that.

24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

25· ·A.· ·He put a picture up of Christian and one of his

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·1· · · · friends hugging at, I don't know, a sporting event I

·2· · · · assume, and he was like, well, this looks awkward,

·3· · · · doesn't it, to paraphrase.

·4· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·5· ·Q.· ·Was the implication to you that Mr. Sailer was gay?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·Yes, I read that as Shay was implying that of

·8· · · · Mr. Sailer.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did others in the competition shooting

11· · · · community express that same opinion that Mr. Horowitz

12· · · · was ridiculing Mr. Sailer for being gay?

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

14· ·A.· ·It was in a private group chat.· I don't think anybody

15· · · · else saw that besides the members of the chat.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did others understand that to be

18· · · · Mr. Horowitz ridiculing Mr. Sailer for being gay?

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

20· ·A.· ·I would think that is a safe assumption.

21· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

22· ·Q.· ·Who is Brian Enos?

23· ·A.· ·He is one of -- pretty much the guy that

24· · · · revolutionized the shooting sport.· So what it is,

25· · · · back in the 80's he put a book out that pretty much

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·1· · · · anybody who is a good shooter read, and he started a

·2· · · · message board which in the 90's, late 90's was pretty

·3· · · · much the place to go for any type of discussion, any

·4· · · · training information regarding tactical shooting.

·5· ·Q.· ·Would you say it's one of the more popular message

·6· · · · boards in the competition shooting community?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·And have you seen negative comments on that message

·9· · · · board relating to Mr. Horowitz or Akai?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·Did you see negative comments relating to Mr. Horowitz

12· · · · or Akai on that message board prior to October of

13· · · · 2019?

14· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

15· ·Q.· ·Who was Brad Seehawer?

16· ·A.· ·He was --

17· ·Q.· ·I think that's S-e-e-h-o-w-e-r, is that correct?

18· ·A.· ·H-a-w-e-r.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.

20· ·A.· ·There wasn't an O I don't believe.· He is a friend of

21· · · · mine that passed away a couple of years ago, active

22· · · · competitive shooter, and he was also in the chat group

23· · · · that we were all in together.

24· ·Q.· ·The one with you and Mr. Horowitz and others?

25· ·A.· ·Correct.

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·1· ·Q.· ·As far as this active chat group, could you tell me

·2· · · · the names of the members of the chat group that you

·3· · · · recall?

·4· ·A.· ·Myself.

·5· ·Q.· ·Other than you and Mr. Horowitz, I'm sorry.

·6· ·A.· ·David Black, Richard Holland, Alex Gac.

·7· ·Q.· ·Can you spell that, please?

·8· ·A.· ·G-a-c.· Ace Boles, Brad Seehawer, Mike Gnyra, Crystal

·9· · · · Dunn, Chad Marthey.

10· ·Q.· ·Who?

11· ·A.· ·Marthey, M-a-r-t-h-e-y.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.

13· ·A.· ·Did I say Ace Boles?

14· ·Q.· ·Yes, you did.

15· ·A.· ·That's not his real name apparently.· It was Cody

16· · · · something.· Tim Mekosh was in it briefly.· I believe

17· · · · that's it.

18· ·Q.· ·Do you believe there was others?

19· ·A.· ·Yes, there was a couple here and there that popped in

20· · · · and popped out.· Scott Thompson.· So two Akai team

21· · · · members were in it.

22· ·Q.· ·And when was the group formed?

23· ·A.· ·Oh, early 2000 teens, maybe 2011, 2012.· It had been

24· · · · going on for quite a while.

25· ·Q.· ·So approximately 2011, 2012, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Correct, if not sooner.

·2· ·Q.· ·Now, you say Mr. Seehawer, is he an active competitor

·3· · · · in the competition shooting community?

·4· ·A.· ·He was before his passing.

·5· ·Q.· ·I apologize, he was, okay.· For approximately how

·6· · · · long?

·7· ·A.· ·I don't know how long he had been shooting.· I met

·8· · · · him -- I was in Canada.· So I think I met him in 2013

·9· · · · or '14.

10· ·Q.· ·And did he express anything negative to you regarding

11· · · · Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

12· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

15· ·Q.· ·And what did Mr. Seehawer say?

16· ·A.· ·He sent me pictures of a gun that he had -- the

17· · · · machine that was on it he wasn't too happy with it.

18· ·Q.· ·Did he send this just to you, or did he share this

19· · · · with other members of the chat group?

20· ·A.· ·He sent it to me originally.· I think it was shared in

21· · · · the chat group as well.

22· ·Q.· ·Who is Chris Kozel (ph)?

23· ·A.· ·Ex-team member of Shay Akai and a competitive shooter.

24· ·Q.· ·Do you recall approximately when he left?

25· ·A.· ·2017 or '18 I believe.· At least that's when I noticed

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·1· · · · he wasn't shooting an Akai gun any more.

·2· ·Q.· ·Sorry.

·3· ·A.· ·I believe that's when I noticed he wasn't shooting an

·4· · · · Akai gun any more.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What type of gun was he shooting?

·6· ·A.· ·He went to an Infinity open gun.

·7· ·Q.· ·And did Mr. Kozel ever express any negative opinions

·8· · · · regarding Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

10· ·A.· ·No.

11· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

12· ·Q.· ·Do you know somebody with the last name I think it's

13· · · · pronounced Rach, R-a-c-h, or Rock?

14· ·A.· ·I know a couple of -- are you referring to Glen Rach?

15· ·Q.· ·How do you spell Glen's last name?

16· ·A.· ·R-a-c-h.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who is Glen Rach?

18· ·A.· ·He's the owner of Lone Star Customs I believe.· Yes,

19· · · · Lone Star Customs.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do they manufacture guns that are used in the

21· · · · competition shooting community?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·Are they active in the competition shooting community?

24· ·A.· ·As of late I haven't heard much out of them, but mid

25· · · · 2000 teen's, yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Were the guns fairly popular in the competition

·2· · · · shooting community?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.· I think he was regional.· More people down there

·4· · · · used him.· I don't think I've seen them up here.

·5· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Rach ever express any negative opinions

·6· · · · regarding Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·8· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Who is the owner of -- have you ever heard of

11· · · · Atlas Gun Works?

12· ·A.· ·Yes, I have.

13· ·Q.· ·And who is the owner?

14· ·A.· ·Adam Nilson or Nelson.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Has any representative of Atlas ever expressed

16· · · · any negative views on Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

18· ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

19· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·Do you know somebody with the last name of Sorensen?

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·Q.· ·What is the first name?

23· ·A.· ·Mark.· Yes, Mark Sorensen.

24· ·Q.· ·And who is Mark Sorensen?

25· ·A.· ·He is a gunsmith, gun builder, owner of Carne Customs.

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·1· ·Q.· ·All right.· Has he ever expressed any negative views

·2· · · · on Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·4· ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

·5· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Mr. Dame, do you know how Carne

·6· · · · is spelled?

·7· ·A.· ·C-a-r-n-e like -- everybody calls him Carne, but

·8· · · · apparently that's not it.

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· So the E is silent?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Thank you.

12· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

13· ·Q.· ·Now, other than what you've already testified to, how

14· · · · would you generally describe Mr. Horowitz's reputation

15· · · · for honesty?

16· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

17· ·A.· ·Poor.

18· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

19· ·Q.· ·When did you first -- have others expressed this same

20· · · · opinion that Mr. Horowitz has a poor reputation for

21· · · · honesty?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

25· ·Q.· ·Have they expressed this opinion prior to October of

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·1· · · · 2019?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Have you heard people in the competition shooting

·4· · · · community refer to Mr. Horowitz as Shady Shay?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·Have you heard this from multiple people?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·And did you hear multiple people refer to Mr. Horowitz

·9· · · · as Shady Shay prior to October of 2019?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·So is it fair to say that numerous people have had a

12· · · · negative opinion of Mr. Horowitz's reputation for

13· · · · honesty prior to October of 2019?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection to form.

15· ·A.· ·Yes, that's fair.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·Are you aware of matches that have refused to sponsor

18· · · · Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

19· ·A.· ·Refused sponsorship from?

20· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, right, refused sponsorship from.

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did the USPSA refuse to receive sponsorship

23· · · · from Mr. Horowitz?

24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

25· ·A.· ·It's my understanding that after an incident with him,

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·1· · · · yes, they no longer sought sponsorship from him.

·2· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·3· ·Q.· ·When did this incident occur?

·4· ·A.· ·2017 or '18.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are other members of the competition shooting

·6· · · · community aware of this incident?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·And what is your understanding as to what happened?

11· ·A.· ·He had fledged a full open gun valued at I think at

12· · · · the time they were 8 or $9,000 as a prize for the

13· · · · prize table.· When they were setting up the prize

14· · · · table, the volunteers realized that there was no

15· · · · certificate from him.· They had to track down one of

16· · · · his competitive shooters, I believe it was Luigi, get

17· · · · him to call Shay, and the certificate was then

18· · · · handwritten on the back of an envelope during the

19· · · · awards ceremony and put on the table.· The shooter who

20· · · · got the certificate it's my understanding had a very

21· · · · difficult time claiming the certificate and didn't get

22· · · · the gun that was actually listed on the cert.

23· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

24· ·Q.· ·Does Akai or Mr. Horowitz have a reputation for not

25· · · · honoring their warranties?

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·2· ·A.· ·It's my knowledge that, yes, they have an issue with

·3· · · · that.

·4· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·5· ·Q.· ·And have others in the competition shooting community

·6· · · · commented on this issue?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·And did they comment on this issue prior to October of

11· · · · 2019?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz ever tell you that he wouldn't honor

14· · · · a warranty on international sales?

15· ·A.· ·Not in those words.· He did say that he loved

16· · · · exporting guns because he didn't have to worry about

17· · · · them after they left the country.

18· ·Q.· ·What was your understanding of what he meant by not

19· · · · having to worry about them after they left the

20· · · · country?

21· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

22· ·A.· ·If anything went wrong, it wasn't his problem any more

23· · · · because they wouldn't be able to get the gun back to

24· · · · the U.S. to be fixed.

25· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

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·1· ·Q.· ·When did he say that to you?

·2· ·A.· ·Mid 2000 teens in the chat group.

·3· ·Q.· ·Did that strike you as dishonest?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Did he say it to others?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.· Everybody in the chat group saw that.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·Everybody in the chat group saw his comment that

10· · · · implied that he didn't have to honor warranties on gun

11· · · · sales that left the country?

12· ·A.· ·Correct.

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

14· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

15· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz to your knowledge ever have an

16· · · · issue -- a potential patent infringement issue

17· · · · regarding a thumb rest?

18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

21· ·Q.· ·What do you recall?

22· ·A.· ·He started making a very similar product to the Go Gun

23· · · · Gas Pedal.· When contacted about it, instead of

24· · · · admitting his mistake, he started to sell shirts for

25· · · · the same price and would give away the part for free.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did you become aware of this issue prior to October of

·2· · · · 2019?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·What is SVI?

·5· ·A.· ·SVI?

·6· ·Q.· ·Yes, SVI.

·7· ·A.· ·They're pretty much the gold standard for custom guns

·8· · · · in the competition world.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did they ever express any negative opinions

10· · · · regarding Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

12· ·A.· ·To me directly, no.· Through one of their team

13· · · · members, yes.

14· ·Q.· ·What was that opinion?

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

16· ·A.· ·That they wouldn't sell parts to Mr. Akai, so that the

17· · · · team member himself had to buy them for himself and

18· · · · then sell them to Shay.

19· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·When you say Mr. Akai, did you mean Mr. Horowitz?

21· ·A.· ·Yes, to -- yes, Mr. Horowitz.· The team member was

22· · · · essentially getting the parts to get the parts to him.

23· ·Q.· ·Has he used the name Shay Akai?

24· ·A.· ·That's what I initially knew him as.

25· ·Q.· ·Do other people know him as Shay Akai?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·Are there others who believe his name is actually Shay

·3· · · · Akai?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·I believe so.· He mentioned to us like he chose that

·6· · · · name when he got married to be, you know, a different

·7· · · · name for him and his wife I believe was the reasoning

·8· · · · behind it.

·9· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So he told you that he changed his name from

11· · · · Shay Horowitz to Shay Akai?

12· ·A.· ·If I recall, yes, I think that's what he said.

13· ·Q.· ·All right.· And did he say why he changed his name

14· · · · from Shay Horowitz to Shay Akai?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·You were asked questions regarding a Mr. Rutkowski is

17· · · · it?

18· ·A.· ·Rutkowski.

19· ·Q.· ·Can you please spell that again?

20· ·A.· ·R-u-t-k-o-w-s-k-i.

21· ·Q.· ·Who is Mr. Rutkowski?

22· ·A.· ·A friend of mine I've known since early 2000 teens.

23· ·Q.· ·Is he a competitive shooter?

24· ·A.· ·Yes, he's a competitive shooter.

25· ·Q.· ·And has he ever expressed any negative opinions

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·1· · · · regarding Mr. Horowitz?

·2· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·5· ·Q.· ·What has he said?

·6· ·A.· ·Lack of character.· I don't think he ever mentioned

·7· · · · poor quality guns, mostly character.

·8· ·Q.· ·Now, you had testified that you recall reading on the

·9· · · · internet that Mr. Horowitz was involved in a day

10· · · · trading scam, is that correct?

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·Q.· ·And your testimony also is that you were aware of

13· · · · these negative internet posts regarding the day

14· · · · trading scam before October of 2019?

15· ·A.· ·That's correct.

16· ·Q.· ·And you also testified that other people were talking

17· · · · about these negative internet posts before October

18· · · · 2019?

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·Q.· ·Is it fair to say that a lot of shooters knew about

21· · · · these negative posts before October of 2019?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

23· ·A.· ·That would be fair.

24· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

25· ·Q.· ·I believe you also testified that other shooters were

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·1· · · · making jokes about these negative internet posts prior

·2· · · · to October 2019, is that correct?

·3· ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·You also testified that Mr. Horowitz would make

·5· · · · disparaging comments regarding other gun builders,

·6· · · · correct?

·7· ·A.· ·Correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·Was this included in the chat group you had?

·9· ·A.· ·Mostly in the chat group, yes.· I was told in the team

10· · · · chat that I wasn't privy to that there was more of it.

11· ·Q.· ·And were you aware of disparaging comments

12· · · · Mr. Horowitz made regarding other gun builders outside

13· · · · the chat group?

14· ·A.· ·I am not, no.

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· John, when you get to a

16· · · · breaking point, can we take just ten minutes?

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Yes, absolutely.

18· · · · · · · · · ·(Brief recess.)

19· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·In the last deposition or the first part of this

21· · · · deposition, Mr. Dame, you had characterized

22· · · · discussions in a chat group as typical

23· · · · shooter-to-shooter BS.· Do you recall that?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.

25· ·Q.· ·The chat group where you characterize discussions as

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·1· · · · typical shooter-to-shooter BS, is that the chat group

·2· · · · that you just testified to that both you and

·3· · · · Mr. Horowitz were members of?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·And I believe Mr. Mekosh was also a member or was a

·6· · · · member of that chat group?

·7· ·A.· ·Correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·And there were other members or members of the Akai

·9· · · · shooting team or former members that were also members

10· · · · of that chat group, correct?

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·Q.· ·And when you say typical shooter-to-shooter BS, what

13· · · · do you mean by that?

14· ·A.· ·What is going on at other matches, gossip we've heard

15· · · · like I mentioned earlier, you know, grown men with

16· · · · guns that gossip like school girls.

17· ·Q.· ·So when you say grown men with guns who gossip like

18· · · · school girls, is it fairly common in the competition

19· · · · shooting community for shooters to ridicule one

20· · · · another?

21· ·A.· ·Oh, yes.

22· ·Q.· ·And was it fairly common for Mr. Horowitz to join in

23· · · · this ridiculing and poking fun of other shooters and

24· · · · other participants in the competition shooting

25· · · · community?

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection form.

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·4· ·Q.· ·And is it fairly common for shooters to express

·5· · · · negative opinions regarding other members and other

·6· · · · builders and gun manufacturers?

·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes, it's a very -- it a very high octane sport, so a

·9· · · · lot of testosterone and a lot of knock this guy and

10· · · · that guy kind of thing.

11· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

12· ·Q.· ·In fact you testified that Mr. Horowitz would commonly

13· · · · disparage other shooters and gun manufacturers,

14· · · · correct?

15· ·A.· ·Correct.

16· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz prior to 2019, did he ever indicate

17· · · · that he was going to sue someone for defamation

18· · · · because he was being ridiculed?

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

20· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

21· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

22· ·Q.· ·Do you recall him ever indicating that he was going to

23· · · · sue someone because they had expressed a negative

24· · · · opinion regarding him or his company Akai?

25· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Does it strike you as hypocritical that he is now

·2· · · · suing others for expressing negative opinions

·3· · · · regarding his guns?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·Does it strike you as being hypocritical that he's now

·8· · · · suing others for expressing opinions, negative

·9· · · · opinions regarding him?

10· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

13· ·Q.· ·Now, you testified in the last deposition that when

14· · · · you originally saw the October 2019 PSA, that the PSA

15· · · · had mentioned KKM?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·And then you noticed shortly after that the reference

18· · · · to KKM was missing?

19· ·A.· ·So I initially saw it without the reference, but then

20· · · · I noticed the edit marker on the bottom of it, and

21· · · · opened that up and saw that it mentioned KKM.

22· ·Q.· ·Shortly after the PSA was published by Mr. Horowitz,

23· · · · was there a general awareness in the competition

24· · · · shooting community that Mr. Horowitz was referring to

25· · · · KKM as the manufacturer of defective barrels?

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·2· ·A.· ·I can't attest to that, no.· I don't know one way or

·3· · · · the other.

·4· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·5· ·Q.· ·Were you aware?

·6· ·A.· ·I was aware, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·And were others aware?

·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·9· ·A.· ·Yes, there were a few others that I know of.· I don't

10· · · · know how many in total.

11· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

12· ·Q.· ·But to be clear, others were aware that Mr. Horowitz

13· · · · was referring to KKM in his PSA, correct?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

15· ·A.· ·Correct.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·And I believe you testified you recall KKM and SCI

18· · · · posting an open letter in January of 2020?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And was it your recollection that this was in response

21· · · · to Mr. Horowitz's accusations that they were selling

22· · · · defective barrels?

23· ·A.· ·Correct.

24· ·Q.· ·You recall reading this letter, correct?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·All right.· And when you read the letter did you

·2· · · · interpret KKM and Shooters Connection trying to defame

·3· · · · Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·No.

·6· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·Was it your impression that they were trying to

·8· · · · disparage them?

·9· ·A.· ·No, they were just trying to clear their name.

10· ·Q.· ·Trying to what?

11· ·A.· ·Clear their name.

12· ·Q.· ·And did others in the competition shooting community

13· · · · have that same impression that they were simply trying

14· · · · to defend their reputations?

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

18· ·Q.· ·Was there anything in that open letter that you

19· · · · recognized as false?

20· ·A.· ·No.

21· ·Q.· ·Was there -- other than Mr. Horowitz, was there

22· · · · anybody else that expressed to you that anything in

23· · · · that open letter was false?

24· ·A.· ·No.· Well, to be specific, I don't recall anybody

25· · · · saying that.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I believe you testified that you recall

·2· · · · learning that Mr. Horowitz and Akai had demanded a

·3· · · · million dollars from Shooters Connection and a million

·4· · · · dollars from KKM?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·And this occurred in late 2019?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·And the demand was based upon allegedly defective KKM

·9· · · · barrels?

10· ·A.· ·Correct.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And your testimony was that your impression was

12· · · · that this demand for two million dollars was

13· · · · fraudulent?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.· I didn't -- I didn't think there was any

15· · · · substance to it when I saw that.· I thought it was

16· · · · awful.

17· ·Q.· ·When you say there was no substance, was it your

18· · · · opinion that this was frivolous?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And did others in the competition shooting community

21· · · · share the same opinion?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

25· ·Q.· ·And did you believe the demand was frivolous because

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·1· · · · you believe that the accusations Mr. Horowitz was

·2· · · · making that KKM barrels was defective was baseless?

·3· ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·And did others in the competition shooting community

·5· · · · share that opinion?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·Did you also believe the demand was frivolous because

10· · · · it was your opinion that Mr. Horowitz was not testing

11· · · · barrels properly?

12· ·A.· ·I don't think I knew what his process was at the time,

13· · · · but I don't -- yes, I wouldn't have assumed that he

14· · · · knew how to do it right.

15· ·Q.· ·Did others express concerns about his testing of the

16· · · · barrels?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·You testified that you believed that Mr. Horowitz's

19· · · · refusal to return barrels to KKM was unreasonable,

20· · · · correct?

21· ·A.· ·Correct.

22· ·Q.· ·Did others share this opinion?

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

24· · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

25· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did Akai's reputation for a lack of qualify in his

·2· · · · products factor into your opinion that the demand was

·3· · · · frivolous?

·4· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·MR. BENFORD:

·7· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Horowitz's reputation for dishonesty factor

·8· · · · into your opinion that the demand was frivolous or

·9· · · · fraudulent?

10· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

13· ·Q.· ·Prior to October 2019 did Mr. Horowitz ever tell you

14· · · · he was losing business?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·When did he say this?

17· ·A.· ·Late summer, early fall I think was the post in the

18· · · · chat group where he mentioned he was losing money

19· · · · because of the new Carry Optics Division.

20· ·Q.· ·This was late summer, early fall of what year?

21· ·A.· ·2019.

22· ·Q.· ·2019.· And you mentioned that you saw a post?

23· ·A.· ·He posted it in the chat group.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The chat group that you testified to earlier?

25· ·A.· ·Correct.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And the substance of the post was that he was losing

·2· · · · business because of the carry optics group?

·3· ·A.· ·The carry optics -- the new division, yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what is the Carry Optics Division?

·5· ·A.· ·A production gun -- so any 9 mil gun that you can buy

·6· · · · off the shelf, and then you throw a red dot optic onto

·7· · · · it was carry optics.· So instead of having to pay, you

·8· · · · know, 8, $9,000 in some aspects for an open gun, to

·9· · · · shoot a gun with a dot, you could pay $1,200 for, you

10· · · · know, a $500 glock and a, you know, a $600 optic.· You

11· · · · get the point, right?· You can have a $500 gun and

12· · · · $500 optics and you can be in that division if you

13· · · · don't want to shoot iron sights.

14· ·Q.· ·And did you say this was causing him to lose revenue?

15· ·A.· ·I think he said sales were down because of it.

16· ·Q.· ·And this -- was it your understanding that the sales

17· · · · were down because somebody instead of paying $8,000

18· · · · for one of his guns could pay $1,000 for a widely

19· · · · manufactured gun like a glock?

20· ·A.· ·Correct.

21· ·Q.· ·Did he ever indicate to you that he wanted the rules

22· · · · changed?

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·Q.· ·What did he say?

25· ·A.· ·So to me directly, I don't recall.· I know he

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·1· · · · petitioned the president of USPSA to have the power

·2· · · · factors for open lowered so that the guns didn't

·3· · · · experience as much pressure.

·4· ·Q.· ·Did he indicate why he wanted guns to experience less

·5· · · · pressure.

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·So his guns would last longer.

·8· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·9· ·Q.· ·Who is the president of the USPSA?

10· ·A.· ·At the time it was Michael Foley.

11· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Bradley ever express to that Mr. Horowitz's

12· · · · demand for two million dollars was a scam?

13· ·A.· ·I don't know if he used those exact terms, but he

14· · · · wasn't pleased about it.

15· ·Q.· ·So you don't recall him using the term "scam"?

16· ·A.· ·No, I can't recall.

17· ·Q.· ·Do you ever recall Mr. Bradley ever using the term

18· · · · "scam" in connection with Mr. Horowitz?

19· ·A.· ·Maybe talking about the day trading, but I can't be

20· · · · certain.

21· ·Q.· ·And again this is the day trading that you were

22· · · · already aware of when it was mentioned to you by

23· · · · Mr. Bradley?

24· ·A.· ·Correct.

25· ·Q.· ·Have you ever used a Rockwell tester?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yep.

·2· ·Q.· ·How frequently?

·3· ·A.· ·It's been a while, but back when I was in the assembly

·4· · · · department I would use them once or twice a week.

·5· ·Q.· ·What period of time were you using a Rockwell tester

·6· · · · once or twice a week?

·7· ·A.· ·Early 2000's.

·8· ·Q.· ·For approximately how many years?

·9· ·A.· ·Maybe ten years on and off.

10· ·Q.· ·And this is all in connection with your job as a CNC

11· · · · machinist?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.· When I would rotate into the assembly

13· · · · department, I would have to harden things.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And have you ever used a Rockwell tester on any

15· · · · hollow cylinders, for example something that is shaped

16· · · · like a pipe or a barrel?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·And what would be the accurate method of testing a

19· · · · hollow cylinder like a barrel or a pipe?

20· ·A.· ·Put it in the V block attachment to hold it to begin

21· · · · with, and then fill in the negative area underneath

22· · · · where you're going to test if you had no choice but to

23· · · · test in that area.· But whenever possible you try to

24· · · · test someplace where there wasn't a void underneath

25· · · · where you're testing.

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·1· ·Q.· ·So when you say an area where there isn't a void, are

·2· · · · you referring to for example the foot of the barrel?

·3· ·A.· ·On a barrel as -- if you're using a barrel as an

·4· · · · example, yes, the part of the lower lugs where it's

·5· · · · solid would be a better place to check as opposed to

·6· · · · on the cylinder.

·7· ·Q.· ·What is the problem with testing on the cylinder?

·8· ·A.· ·Even though it's metal, there is still a compression

·9· · · · factor.· So when you put pressure to test it, you

10· · · · could be flexing the part, and that would give you an

11· · · · inaccurate reading.

12· ·Q.· ·Was it your understanding that Mr. Horowitz was

13· · · · testing his barrels incorrectly?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·And again I believe you testified that many others in

18· · · · the competition shooting community shared this

19· · · · opinion?

20· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·MR. BENFORD:

23· ·Q.· ·You were asked questions regarding a private message

24· · · · between you and Mr. Bradley, Charles Bradley where

25· · · · Mr. Bradley mentioned that the FBI was investigating

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·1· · · · Mr. Horowitz?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·That was a private message, correct?

·4· ·A.· ·Correct.

·5· ·Q.· ·That was just between you and Mr. Bradley?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did you send that message to anyone else?

·8· ·A.· ·That message, no, not that I recall.

·9· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Bradley ask you to send that message to anyone

10· · · · else?

11· ·A.· ·No.

12· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Bradley ask you to repeat to anyone else that

13· · · · Mr. Horowitz was being investigated by the FBI?

14· ·A.· ·No.

15· ·Q.· ·Do you recall that in that same thread you had asked

16· · · · Mr. Bradley how did Mr. Horowitz get an FFL with an

17· · · · open investigation, do you recall?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·All right.· When you say FFL, are you talking about a

20· · · · federal firearms license?

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·Q.· ·So it sounds like you were skeptical that Mr. Horowitz

23· · · · was actually being investigated by the FBI, is that

24· · · · accurate?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.· It didn't make sense to me that you could be

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·1· · · · under investigation for that and they allow you to do

·2· · · · it, allow you to get that license.

·3· ·Q.· ·So you doubted whether or not Mr. Horowitz was

·4· · · · actually being investigated by the FBI?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·When Mr. Bradley made the statement that Mr. Horowitz

·7· · · · was being investigated by the FBI, you already had a

·8· · · · fairly low opinion of Mr. Horowitz, isn't that

·9· · · · accurate?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·This comment that Mr. Bradley made, did it lower your

12· · · · opinion of Mr. Horowitz?

13· ·A.· ·No.· It was already low.

14· ·Q.· ·Now, did you communicate to anyone Mr. Bradley's

15· · · · statement that Mr. Horowitz was being investigated by

16· · · · the FBI?

17· ·A.· ·I don't recall, but apparently there was evidence that

18· · · · I did.

19· ·Q.· ·And who do you believe that you had communicated that

20· · · · to?

21· ·A.· ·I don't recall who that message was with from the

22· · · · earlier thing.

23· ·Q.· ·The recipient of that communication, did they already

24· · · · have a low opinion of Mr. Horowitz?

25· ·A.· ·Yes, more than likely.· If I was bringing that up,

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·1· · · · then yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·They asked you -- I'm sorry, Mr. Yee asked you some

·3· · · · questions regarding an email from Mr. Vlieger.

·4· ·A.· ·Vlieger?

·5· ·Q.· ·Yes, to you regarding KKM allegedly making two types

·6· · · · of steel.· You recall that, right?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·And I believe you testified that you found out that

·9· · · · was later untrue, correct?

10· ·A.· ·I don't think I did.· I think I testified that I

11· · · · wasn't quite -- I didn't quite -- I didn't put much

12· · · · weigh into what John was saying as he was not a

13· · · · machinist.· So I kind of just brushed it off.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was it your understanding that the other type

15· · · · of steel was a type of steel that had an RC factor of

16· · · · 40 to 42?

17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

18· ·A.· ·That's what he was saying, but like I said, this was

19· · · · John, so I wasn't putting a lot of weight into the

20· · · · technical aspects of the machine -- of the materials.

21· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

22· ·Q.· ·Did what Mr. Vlieger was saying, did that discourage

23· · · · you from using KKM barrels?

24· ·A.· ·No.

25· ·Q.· ·Would you have had continued to use KKM barrels if you

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·1· · · · thought that they were insufficient for competition

·2· · · · shooting?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes, if I felt they were substandard, I wouldn't use

·4· · · · them.

·5· ·Q.· ·Do you continue to use them today?

·6· ·A.· ·I still have them in my guns, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·And in your opinion as a shooter, what is your opinion

·8· · · · as to the quality of KKM barrels?

·9· ·A.· ·They're just as good as anything else out there on the

10· · · · market right now.

11· ·Q.· ·What would you say the reputation for KKM barrels is

12· · · · in the competition shooting community?

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

14· ·A.· ·They have a solid reputation.· It's my understanding

15· · · · that they were initially rifle barrels, and pistol

16· · · · barrels was kind of a side offshoot for them.· But

17· · · · I've never heard anybody say they've had issues with

18· · · · the barrels.

19· ·MR. BENFORD:

20· ·Q.· ·Have you ever been aware of any KKM barrels being

21· · · · defective?

22· ·A.· ·No.

23· ·Q.· ·Have you ever been aware of any KKM barrels that

24· · · · weren't suited for competitive shooting?

25· ·A.· ·No.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Have you ever purchased parts from Shooters

·2· · · · Connection?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·What types of parts?

·5· ·A.· ·Small components, fire control grips.· Most of my

·6· · · · purchases were training equipment, timers, match

·7· · · · targets.· But almost any small component I've got from

·8· · · · them.· My one KKM barrel came from them, one Carne

·9· · · · barrel came from them.· But, yes, mostly training

10· · · · equipment is what I buy from them.

11· ·Q.· ·And what is your experience in dealing with Shooters

12· · · · Connection as a customer?

13· ·A.· ·It's awesome.· If I get my order in before noon, I

14· · · · usually have it at the shop the next day with regular

15· · · · shipping.

16· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, go ahead.

17· ·A.· ·With the regular shipping they get it from Georgetown

18· · · · to Coxs Creek the next day.

19· ·Q.· ·Have you ever known Shooters Connection to sell any

20· · · · barrels that were not suited for competition shooting?

21· ·A.· ·No.

22· ·Q.· ·Have you ever known Shooters Connection to ever

23· · · · misrepresent specifications of the parts themselves?

24· ·A.· ·No.· That would not be a good idea.

25· ·Q.· ·Did Shooters Connection -- anybody at Shooters

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·1· · · · Connection or anybody at KKM ever ask you to

·2· · · · communicate anything false regarding Akai or Shay

·3· · · · Horowitz?

·4· ·A.· ·No.· I've never had any communications with KKM until

·5· · · · I was sued.

·6· ·Q.· ·And did anybody from Shooters Connection or KKM ever

·7· · · · ask you to communicate anything negative relating to

·8· · · · Mr. Horowitz or Akai?

·9· ·A.· ·No.

10· ·Q.· ·Have you ever communicated any information regarding

11· · · · Mr. Horowitz or Akai that you knew or believed was

12· · · · false?

13· ·A.· ·No.

14· ·Q.· ·Have you ever communicated any opinions regarding

15· · · · Mr. Horowitz or Akai that you believe were misleading?

16· ·A.· ·No.

17· ·Q.· ·Now, just to be clear, the private messages between

18· · · · you and Mr. Bradley, did anyone else have access to

19· · · · these messages?

20· ·A.· ·No.

21· ·Q.· ·Was anybody able to view these messages?

22· ·A.· ·Not unless they took the phone from me.

23· ·Q.· ·All right.· You were also shown several exhibits that

24· · · · consisted of messages between you and Matt Cheely,

25· · · · correct?· Do you recall that?

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·1· ·A.· ·I recall that.

·2· ·Q.· ·And these were private Facebook messages?

·3· ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·And these were communications between just you and

·5· · · · Mr. Cheely, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did you ever share these messages with anyone?

·8· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

·9· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Cheely to your knowledge?

10· ·A.· ·Not to my knowledge.

11· ·Q.· ·You were also questioned about several private

12· · · · messages between you and Mr. Vlieger.· Do you recall

13· · · · that?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Were these also private Facebook messages?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·Did you communicate any of these messages with anyone?

18· ·A.· ·No, not that I recall.

19· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, did you share these messages between you

20· · · · and Mr. Vlieger with anyone?

21· ·A.· ·Screenshots, no.· I might have in passing mentioned

22· · · · some of the info to Tim Mekosh, but I never would have

23· · · · like given him the phone and said read this.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. Mekosh -- when you mentioned these things

25· · · · or when you believe you may have mentioned these

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·1· · · · things to Mr. Mekosh, is that correct?

·2· ·A.· ·Correct.

·3· ·Q.· ·All right.· And when you mentioned these things or if

·4· · · · you mentioned these things to Mr. Mekosh, at the time

·5· · · · you mentioned them, did Mr. Mekosh already have a low

·6· · · · opinion of Akai and Mr. Horowitz?

·7· ·A.· ·Definitely.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did anything you ever said -- do you have any reason

·9· · · · to believe that anything you ever said to Mr. Mekosh

10· · · · ever lowered his opinion of Akai or Mr. Horowitz?

11· ·A.· ·I don't have a reason to believe that, no.

12· ·Q.· ·Now, during the time you had these private messages

13· · · · with Mr. Vlieger, did Mr. Vlieger already have a low

14· · · · opinion of Akai and Mr. Horowitz?

15· ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.

16· ·Q.· ·And during these discussions with Mr. Cheely, at that

17· · · · time did he already have a low opinion of Mr. Horowitz

18· · · · and Akai?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.· You can see that in the screenshot.· He had

20· · · · mentioned that he had already had issues with him.

21· ·Q.· ·Now, you were asked questions about a discussion you

22· · · · had with Mr. Bradley where you asked are we clear to

23· · · · play with that information, correct?

24· ·A.· ·Correct.

25· ·Q.· ·And the information that you were referring to was

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·1· · · · information pertaining to KKM statements in its open

·2· · · · letter, correct?

·3· ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·So this would have been information that KKM and SCI

·5· · · · are using to defend their reputations against

·6· · · · Mr. Horowitz's accusations, is that correct, sir?

·7· ·A.· ·Correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·You had testified a number of times it's your opinion

·9· · · · that Mr. Horowitz and Akai are bad for the sport of

10· · · · competition shooting, correct?

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·Q.· ·And the things that you had testified to earlier

13· · · · regarding Mr. Horowitz's poor reputation for honesty,

14· · · · is that one of the reasons you believe he is bad for

15· · · · the sport of competition shooting?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·What about -- the things that you testified to earlier

18· · · · regarding his poor reputation for manufacturing, does

19· · · · that also impact your opinion that Mr. Horowitz and

20· · · · Akai are bad for competition shooting?

21· ·A.· ·Yes.

22· ·Q.· ·Are there others in the competition shooting community

23· · · · who feel Mr. Horowitz and Akai are bad for the sport?

24· ·A.· ·Yes.

25· ·Q.· ·So is it fair to say that many people share your

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·1· · · · opinion that Akai and Mr. Horowitz are bad for the

·2· · · · sport?

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

·6· ·Q.· ·Now, just to be clear, the reputation that you

·7· · · · testified to that Mr. Horowitz's manufacturing was

·8· · · · poor and he is dishonest, this reputation is based

·9· · · · upon what other people have expressed to you, correct?

10· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

11· ·A.· ·Correct.

12· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

13· ·Q.· ·In fact numerous other people, correct?

14· ·A.· ·Correct.

15· ·Q.· ·And to be clear, you also share these opinions?

16· ·A.· ·Correct.

17· ·Q.· ·Why were you banned on Facebook?

18· ·A.· ·I have a very colorful vocabulary that doesn't bode

19· · · · well with the community standards, so --

20· ·Q.· ·Go ahead.

21· ·A.· ·That was demonstrated by one of the first Mr. Yee had

22· · · · me read.· You drop a C bomb, you usually get reported

23· · · · and wind up in jail a bit.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The C bomb being the word "cunt," right?

25· ·A.· ·Correct.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in addition to the word "cunt," what other

·2· · · · obscenities have you used that caused you to be banned

·3· · · · from Facebook?

·4· ·A.· ·I think it's fair to say I've used every obscenity.

·5· · · · Do you really want me to say them all in front of

·6· · · · Diane?

·7· ·Q.· ·Diane, my apologies for having to use these words.

·8· · · · But in addition to the word "cunt," do you recall any

·9· · · · other obscenities that caused Facebook to ban you?

10· ·A.· ·Calling somebody a mother fucker, asking somebody what

11· · · · is the least amount of drugs they've sucked a dick

12· · · · for.· Just inflammatory comments to piss somebody off,

13· · · · and I've crossed the line, and the next thing you know

14· · · · I'm in Facebook jail for a day or a week or a month.

15· ·Q.· ·And have you ever been permanently banned from

16· · · · Facebook?

17· ·A.· ·No.

18· ·Q.· ·So is it uncommon for people in the competition

19· · · · shooting community to use obscenities?

20· ·A.· ·No, it's not uncommon.

21· ·Q.· ·In fact, it's very common for people in the

22· · · · competition shooting community to use obscenities, is

23· · · · that accurate?

24· ·A.· ·That's accurate.· It's a very male-driven sport.

25· ·Q.· ·It's just part of the shooter-to-shooter BS that you

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·1· · · · testified to earlier?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Do you recall Mr. Horowitz ever using obscenities?

·4· ·A.· ·I'm assuming at some point or another in one of the

·5· · · · chat groups, yes.· I don't think anybody hasn't.

·6· ·Q.· ·Do you recall Mr. Horowitz ever being, you know,

·7· · · · offended because any other members of his chat group

·8· · · · were using obscenities?

·9· ·A.· ·No.

10· ·Q.· ·Were you ever sanctioned by Facebook for making any

11· · · · false statements?

12· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.· They were all for vulgarity.· And

13· · · · I don't know the exact term they use, but, yes, it

14· · · · wasn't for false statements, it was for --

15· ·Q.· ·Were they ever -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

16· ·A.· ·They weren't for false statements, they were just for

17· · · · vulgarity.

18· ·Q.· ·And were you ever banned from Facebook for making any

19· · · · disparaging statements about somebody else?

20· ·A.· ·I guess one would be construed as that.· I called

21· · · · somebody the world's second largest -- the world's

22· · · · second largest pussy next to that of a female whale.

23· ·Q.· ·And it was your understanding you were banned for

24· · · · using that obscenity or for expressing a negative

25· · · · opinion regarding someone?

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·1· ·A.· ·I think it was the obscenity.

·2· ·Q.· ·And can you think of -- was the purpose of the

·3· · · · statement to ridicule someone?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.· They were being a jackass, and I felt like

·5· · · · pointing out that they were being a jackass.

·6· ·Q.· ·And again these are typical statements that are made

·7· · · · among competition shooters, is that accurate?

·8· ·A.· ·That's accurate, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Other than using an obscenity which Facebook

10· · · · identifies through its algorithm, can you think of any

11· · · · occasion where any member of the competition shooting

12· · · · community has been sanctioned by Facebook for

13· · · · ridiculing someone else?

14· ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

15· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Okay.· That is it for me.

16· · · · Thank you very much for your time.· I may have a few

17· · · · followup questions depending on what the others ask.

18· · · · Thank you.

19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes, Mr. Dame, just a couple

20· · · · of questions for me, and by a couple, I mean a very

21· · · · few here.· I think Mr. Yee and Mr. Benford have

22· · · · covered virtually everything I wanted to ask.

23· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

24· ·BY MR. ROBINSON:

25· ·Q.· ·I understood from your testimony that you never had

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·1· · · · any communication with KKM until you were sued, is

·2· · · · that accurate?

·3· ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·Is it also accurate that you never had any

·5· · · · communication with Luke McIntire until you were sued?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did you ever email Mr. McIntire prior to being sued?

·8· ·A.· ·No.

·9· ·Q.· ·Did you ever email anyone at KKM prior to being sued?

10· ·A.· ·No.· I wouldn't have even known where to get that

11· · · · info.

12· ·Q.· ·What about any direct messages on Facebook or any

13· · · · other social media, did you have any direct messages

14· · · · with Mr. McIntire prior to being sued?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·Have you ever had any direct messages with

17· · · · Mr. McIntire?

18· ·A.· ·I don't think I've had a direct -- the only

19· · · · communication I've had with him after being sued was a

20· · · · phone call and a text message or two.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Any text messages with Mr. McIntire prior to

22· · · · being sued?

23· ·A.· ·No.

24· ·Q.· ·Same thing with anyone else from KKM, did you --

25· ·A.· ·No.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did you communicate with anyone from KKM prior to

·2· · · · being sued?

·3· ·A.· ·No communication whatsoever with anybody at or

·4· · · · associated with KKM before being sued.

·5· ·Q.· ·Prior to being sued did anyone ever tell you that

·6· · · · Mr. McIntire had asked that you disseminate

·7· · · · information about Shay Horowitz?

·8· ·A.· ·No.

·9· ·Q.· ·Prior to being sued did anyone ever tell you that

10· · · · Mr. McIntire had asked that you disseminate

11· · · · information about Akai?

12· ·A.· ·No.

13· ·Q.· ·Were you a part of a conspiracy with Mr. McIntire to

14· · · · disseminate information about Shay Horowitz?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·Were you a part of a conspiracy with Mr. McIntire to

17· · · · disseminate information about KKM?

18· ·A.· ·No.

19· ·Q.· ·Let me ask that question in a better way.· Were you

20· · · · part of a conspiracy with Mr. McIntire to disseminate

21· · · · information about Akai?

22· ·A.· ·No.

23· ·Q.· ·Were you a part of a conspiracy with KKM to

24· · · · disseminate information about Mr. Horowitz?

25· ·A.· ·No.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Were you a part of a conspiracy with KKM to

·2· · · · disseminate information about Akai?

·3· ·A.· ·No.

·4· ·Q.· ·Did you ever post any information about Mr. Horowitz

·5· · · · on any social media platform because you believed that

·6· · · · KKM desired you to do so?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did you ever post any information about Akai on any

·9· · · · social media platform because you believed KKM desired

10· · · · you to do so?

11· ·A.· ·No.

12· ·Q.· ·Did you ever post any information about Mr. Horowitz

13· · · · on any social media platform because you believed

14· · · · Mr. McIntire desired you to do so?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·Did you ever post any information about Akai on any

17· · · · social media platform because you believe Mr. McIntire

18· · · · desired you to do so?

19· ·A.· ·No.

20· ·Q.· ·Did you ever disseminate any information about

21· · · · Mr. Horowitz to any third party because you believed

22· · · · that KKM desired you to do so?

23· ·A.· ·No.

24· ·Q.· ·Did you ever disseminate any information about Akai to

25· · · · any third party because you believed that KKM desired

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·1· · · · you to do so?

·2· ·A.· ·No.

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Those are all the questions

·4· · · · I have for you.· Thank you, sir.

·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

·6· ·BY MR. YEE:

·7· ·Q.· ·Mr. Dame, just a few minutes ago Mr. Bradley was

·8· · · · asking you about was it common to use obscenities

·9· · · · while posting on the shooting community chat rooms in

10· · · · posts, and Mr. Benford specifically asked you whether

11· · · · you saw that Mr. Horowitz posted any obscenities, and

12· · · · you said you assumed so.· Can you give us an example

13· · · · of a post you saw that Mr. Horowitz posted using

14· · · · obscenities?

15· ·A.· ·Not off the top of my head, no.· I'm going by the way

16· · · · we talked in that chat group.· I would find it hard to

17· · · · believe that any of us in that chat group didn't use

18· · · · an obscenity.

19· ·Q.· ·But you can't identify a specific example of

20· · · · Mr. Horowitz using an obscenity?

21· ·A.· ·A specific time he dropped an F bomb or an A bomb, no,

22· · · · I can't.

23· ·Q.· ·You mentioned that typically you get banned from

24· · · · Facebook for using obscenities.· Would you also get

25· · · · banned from Facebook for making any type of slurs

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·1· · · · about people with disabilities?

·2· ·A.· ·I think that would fall under the community standards

·3· · · · act.· I can't recall if I've ever done it.

·4· ·Q.· ·Have you ever made fun of people with autism?

·5· ·A.· ·I have used the term weaponized autism before.

·6· ·Q.· ·Have you ever made fun of people with cancer on

·7· · · · Facebook?

·8· ·A.· ·I've made cancer jokes, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Do you recall being banned for making those comments?

10· ·A.· ·I don't know if I was banned for that or not.

11· ·Q.· ·Have you ever made fun of one's Christian beliefs?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·Were you banned for that?

14· ·A.· ·I think I did get banned for a joke about the First

15· · · · Supper possibly.· I can't recall for sure.

16· ·Q.· ·Have you ever made fun of people who have committed

17· · · · suicide?

18· ·A.· ·I believe so.

19· ·Q.· ·Were you banned for that?

20· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

21· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you some questions about your

22· · · · knowledge about KKM and their reputation.· You

23· · · · mentioned that they had a solid reputation, and you

24· · · · started to give some background of your knowledge of

25· · · · KKM, and you mentioned that they -- to your knowledge

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·1· · · · they were originally manufacturing rifle barrels and

·2· · · · then started doing pistols barrels as an aside.· Do

·3· · · · you remember that?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·How do you know this background about KKM?

·6· ·A.· ·I believe I've learned that after the lawsuit started

·7· · · · in talking with Mr. Bradley or Mr. Vlieger.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did you learn this from Mr. McIntire?

·9· ·A.· ·No.

10· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you some questions about the KKM

11· · · · open letter that was posted on Facebook.· Did you get

12· · · · an opportunity to see that letter or get a copy of the

13· · · · letter before it was actually posted?

14· ·A.· ·Yes, I believe I saw it before it was posted.

15· ·Q.· ·And how did you get that letter?

16· ·A.· ·From Mr. Bradley.

17· ·Q.· ·Do you know why Mr. Bradley sent it to you?

18· ·A.· ·I do not, you'd have to ask him.

19· ·Q.· ·You mentioned earlier that you specifically remember

20· · · · seeing that the PSA posted by Akai made a specific

21· · · · reference to KKM, and then there was a second version

22· · · · where the KKM name was removed, is that correct?

23· ·A.· ·Correct.

24· ·Q.· ·And you specifically remember seeing that in the PSA,

25· · · · or was it a comment made by somebody on that post?

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·1· ·A.· ·If you clicked on the post, there was -- underneath

·2· · · · where it said share and everything else, there was a

·3· · · · thing that said edit.· If you clicked on it, it showed

·4· · · · the original.· I don't know if that function still

·5· · · · exists on Facebook.

·6· ·Q.· ·But what you're saying is that the original PSA that

·7· · · · you saw, you said that it specifically referenced KKM?

·8· ·A.· ·I believe the original one did not, but the edited one

·9· · · · did if I recall correctly.

10· ·Q.· ·So I got that backwards.· So you're saying that the

11· · · · original PSA did not say KKM, but then the second

12· · · · version did?

13· ·A.· ·Yes, this is -- sorry.· So it would have been the

14· · · · original, which would have been the edited one, the

15· · · · original one would have had KKM.· It was edited to

16· · · · remove it.· So the one you saw when you first saw it

17· · · · was the edited one, so the second one, meaning the

18· · · · original one had KKM on it.· The first one I saw was

19· · · · the edited, not the original.

20· ·Q.· ·And it's your recollection that the original version

21· · · · specifically mentioned KKM?

22· ·A.· ·Correct.

23· ·Q.· ·Did you take a screenshot of it?

24· ·A.· ·Of the edit?· I believe I did.

25· ·Q.· ·When you say edit, I'm talking about the version that

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·1· · · · mentioned KKM.

·2· ·A.· ·Yes, the part where it says it's edited but was

·3· · · · changed, I believe I took a screenshot of that and

·4· · · · provided that in my original discovery.

·5· ·Q.· ·My question is, did you take a screenshot of the

·6· · · · original PSA that referenced KKM as you've stated?

·7· ·A.· ·Before it was edited, no.· I took a screenshot of the

·8· · · · notification that it was edited.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember where you saw that PSA that

10· · · · made reference to KKM?

11· ·A.· ·No, I don't remember where that was.

12· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you number of questions regarding a

13· · · · team chat that you said you were not privy to, do you

14· · · · remember?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·What team chat was that?

17· ·A.· ·I'm told there is a chat group that is all the members

18· · · · of the Akai shooting team.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say you're not privy to it, you

20· · · · were not allowed access to that team chat, correct?

21· ·A.· ·No, I'm not on the team.

22· ·Q.· ·So who was your source for the information you

23· · · · testified to as to what occurred on that team chat?

24· ·A.· ·An ex-team member, Mike Gnyra or however we pronounce

25· · · · his name.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Any other team member provide you that information?

·2· ·A.· ·No.

·3· ·Q.· ·You testified earlier that you were aware that the

·4· · · · USPSA had refused sponsorship to Akai Custom, is that

·5· · · · correct?

·6· ·A.· ·They were no longer going to pursue it, correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·And who told you that?

·8· ·A.· ·A volunteer from the sport.

·9· ·Q.· ·Who was the volunteer?

10· ·A.· ·Do I have to give a name?

11· ·Q.· ·Yes.

12· ·A.· ·Tess Nash.

13· ·Q.· ·Can you spell the name?

14· ·A.· ·N-a-s-h.

15· ·Q.· ·How do you spell the first name?

16· ·A.· ·T-e-s-s.

17· ·Q.· ·And when did Tess Nash tell you this?

18· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

19· ·Q.· ·Was this prior to October 2019?

20· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

21· ·Q.· ·Where was this told?· Where was this information

22· · · · relayed to you, was it at a match?

23· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

24· ·Q.· ·Did Tess Nash tell you why the USPSA was no longer

25· · · · pursuing sponsorships with Akai?

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·1· ·A.· ·Because of the hassle of getting that cert.

·2· ·Q.· ·Regarding that cert that you testified to that I

·3· · · · believe it was mentioned that was it Luigi?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Did you ever talk to Luigi about that cert?

·6· ·A.· ·I did not, no.

·7· ·Q.· ·Were you aware that he was supposed to bring that cert

·8· · · · with him to that particular match, but forgot to bring

·9· · · · it with him?

10· ·A.· ·No, I was not.

11· ·Q.· ·You answered some questions for Mr. Benford regarding

12· · · · Lesgar Murdock and the statement about cheating at

13· · · · matches.· Do you remember that?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Were you aware that that information about Mr. Murdock

16· · · · cheating at matches and changing numbers was relayed

17· · · · to Mr. Horowitz from Mr. Vlieger?

18· ·A.· ·No, it was from Mr. Horowitz directly.

19· ·Q.· ·No, but my question is, did you know it was

20· · · · Mr. Vlieger who provided that information to Horowitz

21· · · · to begin with?

22· ·A.· ·No, I did not, no.

23· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you if your opinion of Shay Horowitz

24· · · · is that he is vindictive, and your answer was yes.

25· · · · Would you consider yourself a vindictive person?

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·1· ·A.· ·Spiteful, yes.· Vindictive, no.

·2· ·Q.· ·Would you consider yourself an internet troll?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you who was aware of the Luke Cao

·5· · · · contingency issue, and you said mostly your friends

·6· · · · knew, you identified Mr. Mekosh, Mr. Lin, and then you

·7· · · · mentioned Mr. Vlieger.· Isn't it true that you

·8· · · · testified earlier that you actually relayed this

·9· · · · information to Mr. Vlieger?

10· ·A.· ·Is it?· I don't really recall who knew or if I told

11· · · · him.· It's --

12· ·Q.· ·We covered in an exhibit earlier where you had told

13· · · · Mr. Vlieger that he was fucking Mr. Cao out of $4600

14· · · · in contingency, remember?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.· So, okay, then I would have told him about that.

16· ·Q.· ·So just to clarify, so when you say that people knew

17· · · · about this, Mr. Vlieger was not one that already knew,

18· · · · and in fact you told him that, correct?

19· ·A.· ·That would be correct then, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·You testified that Phoenix Trinity told you that one

21· · · · of the issues they had with Mr. Horowitz is his lack

22· · · · of machining knowledge, do you remember that?

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·Q.· ·Were you aware that the very first CNC machine that

25· · · · Akai Custom purchased was from Trinity, Phoenix

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·1· · · · Trinity?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·You knew that?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Were you aware that when Akai Custom purchased that

·6· · · · CNC machine, that Phoenix Trinity then went to Akai

·7· · · · Customs to provide training on how to use that CNC

·8· · · · machine?

·9· ·A.· ·No.

10· ·Q.· ·When a company buys a CNC machine, is it common to

11· · · · receive training from the entity selling it?

12· ·A.· ·Not as part of a purchase price, no.· Actually let me

13· · · · rephrase that.· I think -- I think some of the major

14· · · · manufacturers when you buy a new one, you do get

15· · · · training.

16· ·Q.· ·You identified a Kentucky shooter named Jeff Gordon

17· · · · earlier, do you remember?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Do you have personal knowledge as to whether

20· · · · Mr. Gordon purchased an Akai gun directly from Akai or

21· · · · not?

22· ·A.· ·I do not.

23· ·Q.· ·But you identified Mr. Gordon as one who was having

24· · · · problems or at least explaining to you that he was

25· · · · having problems with Akai guns?

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

·2· ·A.· ·No, that's not what I said.· I said he had a poor

·3· · · · opinion of his machining and the build quality.

·4· ·BY MR. YEE:

·5· ·Q.· ·And Mr. Gordon was referring to an Akai gun that he

·6· · · · had?

·7· ·A.· ·I don't know if he had or had played with or shot. I

·8· · · · don't know what guns he's owned.

·9· ·Q.· ·But you have no personal knowledge of whether

10· · · · Mr. Gordon purchased that gun directly from Akai or

11· · · · not?

12· ·A.· ·I have no personal knowledge of what guns Mr. Gordon

13· · · · has owned.

14· ·Q.· ·And the guns that Mr. Gordon was referring to that he

15· · · · expressed that they were of a poor quality, do you

16· · · · know if those guns were worked on by any gunsmiths?

17· ·A.· ·I do not.

18· ·Q.· ·You testified to some pictures that Mr. Horowitz

19· · · · disseminated on the internet, some nude photos, do you

20· · · · remember that?

21· ·A.· ·Not on the internet, but I was told through text

22· · · · message.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Who told you that?

24· ·A.· ·Tim Mekosh.

25· ·Q.· ·What is your understanding of who was in those

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·1· · · · pictures?

·2· ·A.· ·My understanding is it is Lisa Marie Judy.

·3· ·Q.· ·Is this the woman that Mr. Mekosh was cheating on his

·4· · · · wife with?

·5· ·A.· ·Not that I'm aware of.

·6· ·Q.· ·You testified that regarding tungsten, that the only

·7· · · · entity that you -- the main entity that you knew of

·8· · · · that was doing tungsten sleeves was Akai Customs, is

·9· · · · that correct?

10· ·A.· ·Correct.

11· ·Q.· ·Have you heard of an entity called Lin Cat?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·Are you aware that Lin Cat also does tungsten?

14· ·A.· ·I'm not.

15· ·Q.· ·You testified earlier that one of the issues that you

16· · · · find with tungsten is that when you have to remove

17· · · · material to install the tungsten sleeve, it weakens

18· · · · the barrel and weakens the slide, is that what you

19· · · · said?

20· ·A.· ·No.· I said you have to take weight away from the

21· · · · barrel, which takes -- you know, counteracts the

22· · · · weight that you're adding to it.· Adding something to

23· · · · the barrel wouldn't weaken the slide.· I said it could

24· · · · cause wear where that locks up because of the harder

25· · · · surface.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Do you know how much material is removed from the

·2· · · · barrel to install the sleeve, the tungsten sleeve?

·3· ·A.· ·It depends on the caliber of the barrel, it depends on

·4· · · · the size of the sleeve I guess.· I don't think there

·5· · · · is a set standard, is there?

·6· ·Q.· ·So you don't have any knowledge as to exactly how much

·7· · · · is removed?

·8· ·A.· ·No.· I've never installed one.

·9· ·Q.· ·You also identified a gentleman named Ryan Conley who

10· · · · complained to you about an Akai gun having a loose

11· · · · fit, do you remember that?

12· ·A.· ·I didn't say that.· I said I felt it was a loose gun.

13· · · · He never said anything.

14· ·Q.· ·Mr. Conley didn't complain to you about it being

15· · · · loose?

16· ·A.· ·No.

17· ·Q.· ·So how did you come across this gun that Mr. Conley

18· · · · had?

19· ·A.· ·He has a truck full of various guns that he brings

20· · · · along with him when he sponsors matches, and a shooter

21· · · · I knew asked if he could go shoot it.· So I followed

22· · · · him to the test fire range to take a look at it.

23· · · · Actually I drove him to the test fire range.

24· ·Q.· ·So this was at a match that you and Mr. Conley were

25· · · · at?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· ·Q.· ·And so he presented to you an Akai gun, and you took

·3· · · · the opinion that it was a loose fit?

·4· ·A.· ·He presented to another shooter who needed a ride to a

·5· · · · test fire range, and I asked if I could also handle

·6· · · · the gun, and my notice of it was that it was poorly

·7· · · · fit.

·8· ·Q.· ·Because Mr. Benford asked you specifically, you know,

·9· · · · what are some of the individuals out there that -- and

10· · · · team members, specifically Akai team members or

11· · · · related to Akai that had expressed a low opinion of

12· · · · Akai guns, and specifically identified Ryan Conley.

13· · · · What did Mr. Conley tell you, if anything?

14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection.

15· ·A.· ·I don't believe I said it that way.· If you took it

16· · · · that way, that was incorrect.· Mr. Conley himself

17· · · · hasn't said anything about gun.· I never asked him

18· · · · about the gun.

19· ·BY MR. YEE:

20· ·Q.· ·The Akai gun that you did handle that Mr. Conley gave

21· · · · you that you took the opinion it was a loose fit --

22· ·A.· ·He didn't give it to me.· He gave it to another

23· · · · shooter that I drove to the test fire range.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you shoot that gun?

25· ·A.· ·I don't remember if I shot it or not.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did you handle the gun?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And is it your handling of the gun that

·4· · · · provided you the ability to make the opinion that it

·5· · · · was a loose fit?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did you know the history of that gun?

·8· ·A.· ·I do not.

·9· ·Q.· ·Do you have any knowledge as to how many rounds had

10· · · · been fired through it?

11· ·A.· ·I do not.

12· ·Q.· ·Do you know if that gun was purchased new or used?

13· ·A.· ·I highly doubt a gun with Ryan's logo all over it was

14· · · · purchased used, but I do not know for a fact.

15· ·Q.· ·Did you know if that gun was worked on by any

16· · · · gunsmiths?

17· ·A.· ·I do not.

18· ·Q.· ·You mentioned that it's your understanding or your

19· · · · knowledge that Akai's reputation in the shooting

20· · · · community is very low.· You mentioned that the guns

21· · · · are known as a poor quality, is that correct?

22· ·A.· ·Correct.

23· ·Q.· ·Were you aware that Akai Custom Guns have been used by

24· · · · four national champions, or, I'm sorry, world

25· · · · champions?

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·1· ·A.· ·When they won the championships or afterwards?

·2· ·Q.· ·When they won.

·3· ·A.· ·No, I don't think Floyd was using that when he won the

·4· · · · world championship.· Who won a world with it?

·5· ·Q.· ·I'm asking if you're aware that four world champions

·6· · · · have used Akai guns?

·7· ·A.· ·And I'm not sure if you're saying just used or used to

·8· · · · win.

·9· ·Q.· ·Both.

10· ·A.· ·No.· Then I asked do you know which ones used them to

11· · · · win.

12· ·Q.· ·Are you aware that three world championships have been

13· · · · won using Akai guns?

14· ·A.· ·No.· Which ones?

15· ·Q.· ·Are you aware that Akai guns have been used to win

16· · · · four national titles?

17· ·A.· ·Four, no.· I know at least one.· I don't know about

18· · · · the other ones.

19· ·Q.· ·So you don't know anything about these national and

20· · · · world titles, but yet it's your testimony that Akai

21· · · · guns has a poor reputation in the community?

22· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

24· ·A.· ·From like the rank and file shooters, yes.· The guys

25· · · · that win nationals will win nationals with any gun.

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can we take a ten-minute break?

·2· · · · I have to find a document real quick.

·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Works for me.

·4· · · · · · · · · ·(Brief recess.)

·5· ·BY MR. YEE:

·6· ·Q.· ·Mr. Dame, Mr. Benford asked you earlier about negative

·7· · · · comments that Mr. Mekosh made to you regarding

·8· · · · Mr. Horowitz.· Do you remember that?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·And you provided some examples of some of the negative

11· · · · comments that Mr. Mekosh provided, correct?

12· ·A.· ·Correct.

13· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Mekosh ever call Mr. Horowitz a kike?

14· ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

15· ·Q.· ·Mr. Benford asked you some questions about whether

16· · · · Shay was known as Shay Akai, and you testified that

17· · · · that's what you thought his name was, and then you

18· · · · testified that you had heard that he changed his name

19· · · · from Shay Horowitz to Shay Akai, do you remember that?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·Do you have any knowledge as to why Mr. Horowitz

22· · · · referred to himself as Shay Akai?

23· ·A.· ·If I remember correctly, he just -- him and his wife

24· · · · wanted to have a different name, so they came up with

25· · · · that I believe was his explanation of it in the chat

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·1· · · · group.

·2· ·Q.· ·So your understanding of that was on a chat group?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes, the chat group with Mr. Horowitz, with Shay.

·4· ·Q.· ·Would it surprise you to know that Mr. Akai wanted the

·5· · · · name Akai instead of Horowitz so that his kids didn't

·6· · · · face any anti-Semitic type comments?

·7· ·A.· ·No.· Well, sorry, it would surprise me of that, yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·Why would it surprise you?

·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

10· ·A.· ·Because I didn't think that that would be an issue.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Why wouldn't you think that would be an issue?

12· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

13· ·A.· ·There's a lot of people with Jewish names in the

14· · · · world.

15· ·BY MR. YEE:

16· ·Q.· ·You testified actually last week and as well today

17· · · · regarding a claim that Mr. Horowitz made about a

18· · · · powder issue with Hodgdon, do you remember that?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And it was your testimony that you found that there

21· · · · was no in truth to that claim, correct?

22· ·A.· ·It's my recollection that there wasn't, but I remember

23· · · · you saying that there was some kind of result on that

24· · · · and then you asked me about that.· But that was the

25· · · · first that I heard of it.

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 24 was marked

·2· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

·3· ·BY MR. YEE:

·4· ·Q.· ·Let me put a document up that I've labeled as

·5· · · · Exhibit 24.· This is a post on the Akai Custom Gun

·6· · · · Facebook page back on September 27, 2012.· I'll give

·7· · · · you a minute to read that, and let me know when you're

·8· · · · ready to answer some questions.

·9· ·A.· ·Okay.

10· ·Q.· ·In this particular post Mr. Horowitz and/or Akai

11· · · · Custom Guns indicates that they had a conversation

12· · · · with Chris Hodgdon.· Is that your understanding of who

13· · · · is the owner of Hodgdon Powder?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·It indicates here that -- it's actually Mr. Horowitz

16· · · · praising Mr. Hodgdon for stepping up to take care of a

17· · · · lot of powder that was determined to be bad, correct?

18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·BY MR. YEE:

21· ·Q.· ·Have you seen this post before today?

22· ·A.· ·I have not.

23· ·Q.· ·You mentioned last week that you felt that one of the

24· · · · false claims that Shay made publicly online was

25· · · · regarding bad powder.· What did you do, if anything,

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·1· · · · to verify whether that was true or not?

·2· ·A.· ·Nothing.

·3· ·Q.· ·Now, this post seems to indicate that Mr. Hodgdon did

·4· · · · agree to take care of people with this lot of powder,

·5· · · · correct?

·6· · · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Form, object to the form.

·7· ·A.· ·Correct, that's what that -- yes.

·8· ·BY MR. YEE:

·9· ·Q.· ·Were you aware of any time in which Mr. Hodgdon went

10· · · · after Mr. Horowitz or Akai Custom Guns for falsely

11· · · · posting about a lot of bad powder?

12· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

13· ·Q.· ·Did anyone tell you specifically that Shay's claim

14· · · · about the lot of bad powder was false?

15· ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.

16· ·Q.· ·Who told you that?

17· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

18· ·Q.· ·Was it Mr. Mekosh?

19· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

20· ·Q.· ·You testified earlier that one of the comments that

21· · · · Mr. Cheely made to you was that he always had to chase

22· · · · Shay down to pay his bills, is that correct?

23· ·A.· ·Correct.

24· ·Q.· ·What did Mr. Cheely tell you specifically, was it

25· · · · outstanding invoices that he had a hard time getting

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·1· · · · Shay to pay?

·2· ·A.· ·We would have to look back at that one screenshot in a

·3· · · · Facebook conversation.· He mentioned once that any

·4· · · · time you would try to run a credit card, it would

·5· · · · always bounce or he would have to split the balance

·6· · · · between multiple credit cards.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Cheely ever tell you that he didn't get paid

·8· · · · for something from Shay?

·9· ·A.· ·Not that I recall.

10· ·Q.· ·You already mentioned that you don't recall who told

11· · · · you about the claims that Shay made about the lot of

12· · · · bad powder dealing with Hodgdon.· Who did you tell

13· · · · about Shay's claims of bad powder from Hodgdon?

14· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

15· ·Q.· ·Was this publicly on Facebook?

16· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

17· ·Q.· ·Private message?

18· ·A.· ·I can't recall.

19· ·Q.· ·How about text message?

20· ·A.· ·Once again, I don't recall how it --

21· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 25 was marked

22· · · · · · · · · ·for identification.)

23· ·BY MR. YEE:

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I have another document up.· We're going to

25· · · · call this Exhibit 25.· This is you and Mr. Mekosh

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·1· · · · communicating with each other, correct?

·2· ·A.· ·Correct.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· This looks like it was around August of 2019,

·4· · · · correct?

·5· ·A.· ·Correct.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you see where my pointer is?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm circling the post of comments there.· Is

·9· · · · this Mr. Mekosh here posting this?

10· ·A.· ·If it's on that side of the screen, then, yes, that

11· · · · would be coming from the sender.

12· ·Q.· ·So that's Mr. Mekosh to you?

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· As you see this communication here, what is

15· · · · Mr. Mekosh referring to here, do you know?

16· ·A.· ·You'd have to ask him.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, you seem to respond, I was laughing so

18· · · · hard typing that.· Do you see that?

19· ·A.· ·I do.

20· ·Q.· ·Is that referring to something you typed in this post?

21· ·A.· ·That could be from a message further above.· Just

22· · · · because that's right underneath that doesn't mean it's

23· · · · referring to that.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember specifically what you were

25· · · · laughing so hard about that you were typing?

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·1· ·A.· ·I do not.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember what page this is?· Was

·3· · · · this Mr. Mekosh's page?

·4· ·A.· ·I do not.

·5· ·Q.· ·And you indicated earlier that Mike Hoffer, that name

·6· · · · is Mr. Mekosh's backup page, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·Correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·And did you ever have the ability to post anything on

·9· · · · the Mike Hoffer page as Mike Hoffer?

10· ·A.· ·No.

11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· I have no further

12· · · · questions.

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· I just have a couple of very

14· · · · quick questions.

15· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

16· ·BY MR. BENFORD:

17· ·Q.· ·Mr. Dame, you were asked quite a few questions by

18· · · · Mr. Yee regarding your statement as to, and I

19· · · · apologize, Diane, how can I burn this cunt, right?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·And it was your testimony that in calling Mr. Horowitz

22· · · · a cunt, you were describing your belief that he was a

23· · · · "crappy person"?

24· ·A.· ·Correct.

25· ·Q.· ·And saying that Mr. Horowitz is a crappy person, are

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·1· · · · you implying that he's a bad person?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes, that would be a fair assumption.

·3· ·Q.· ·And is this consistent with your previous testimony

·4· · · · that you and others had a low opinion of

·5· · · · Mr. Horowitz's honesty?

·6· ·A.· ·Correct, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·You're a Canadian citizen, right?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·How long have you been a Canadian citizen?

10· ·A.· ·My whole life, 42 years.

11· ·Q.· ·42 years.· Is the word "cunt" less offensive in Canada

12· · · · than it is in the US?

13· · · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Objection, form.

14· ·A.· ·It's seems to be in between the way it's regarded from

15· · · · the U.S. to British Colonies.· It's -- you would refer

16· · · · to your buddy as one, like, hey, you know, this fucker

17· · · · over here, when you call your buddy, you know, this

18· · · · fucking cunt over here type deal.· So, yes, it is --

19· · · · it is not regarded as poorly in Canada I would say.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So, I mean, does it have an analogous meaning

21· · · · in Canada to a jerk?

22· ·A.· ·Jerk or your buddy.· It's one of those words.· I use

23· · · · it more often than I probably should for various

24· · · · reasons.

25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· All right.· Well, let the

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·1· ·record reflect that Mr. Fiato is shaking his head

·2· ·laughing.· Let the record also reflect that this issue

·3· ·has been brought up by counsel for Plaintiffs.

·4· · · · · · · So in any event, those are all the

·5· ·questions I have.

·6· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· No questions on my end.

·7· · · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Again, my apologies, Diane.

·8· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· Mike, you have the

·9· ·opportunity to either read your deposition transcript

10· ·to ensure that it doesn't contain any errors, or you

11· ·can waive that right if somebody orders the

12· ·transcript.· It's entirely your decision what to do.

13· ·To the extent that you're looking for my advice on

14· ·this, I usually recommend that witnesses read so that

15· ·you can ensure that what the court reporter has typed

16· ·down is an accurate transcription of your answers.· So

17· ·with that being said, the choice is yours.

18· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· The one request I

19· ·would make, because I know this goes on Pacer, right,

20· ·so it would be public knowledge?

21· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· No.· If somebody orders the

22· ·transcript, it is delivered privately by the court

23· ·reporter to the attorneys.· It's not uploaded on to

24· ·Pacer, and typically in federal court you don't file

25· ·depositions, things like that with the same frequency

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·1· ·and the same manner as you do in state court.· But I

·2· ·think, Mike, what you're going to ask is that to the

·3· ·extent that anybody believes there is a need to file

·4· ·all or any portion of your transcript in a publicly

·5· ·accessible forum, that any personal information

·6· ·including his address be redacted from the transcript?

·7· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Correct.

·8· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· With that being the case,

·9· ·attorneys who file things with the court that contain

10· ·personal identifying information have an obligation to

11· ·redact that information.· But I'll ask here while

12· ·we're still on the record that to the extent that

13· ·anybody does, you know, see a need to file any portion

14· ·of the transcript with the court or in any other

15· ·publicly accessible forum, that all of Mr. Dame's

16· ·personal identifying information including his address

17· ·being redacted before doing so.

18· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So I guess, yes, if someone

19· ·does get a transcript, I would like to read it.

20· · · · · · · MR. YEE:· I don't think that would be an

21· ·issue, because I think that's a requirement in all the

22· ·federal courts anyway.

23· · · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· It should be.

24· · · · · · · MR. FIATO:· It most certainly is.

25· · · · · · · (Deposition concluded at 12:41 p.m.)

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·1· ·STATE OF MICHIGAN)

· · · · · · · · · · · )SS.

·2· ·COUNTY OF OAKLAND)

·3· · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

·4· · · · · · · I, DIANE L. SZACH, a Notary Public in and for

· · · · · the above county and state, do hereby certify that the

·5· · · · deposition of said witness was taken before me at the

· · · · · time and place hereinbefore set forth; witness was by

·6· · · · me first duly sworn to testify to the truth; that

· · · · · thereupon the foregoing questions were asked and

·7· · · · foregoing answers made stenographically and later

· · · · · reduced to typewritten form; and I certify that this

·8· · · · is a true and correct transcript of my stenographic

· · · · · notes so taken.

·9· · · · · · · I do further certify that I am not connected by

· · · · · blood or marriage to any of the parties, or their

10· · · · attorneys or agents; that I am not an employee of

· · · · · them, nor am I interested directly or indirectly in

11· · · · the matter in controversy either as counsel, agent,

· · · · · attorney, or otherwise.

12· · · · · · · IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand

· · · · · this ^ ___ day of ^ ________, 2022.

13

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16· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Diane L. Szach, CSR-3170

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Oakland County, Michigan

17· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·My Commission Expires:· 3/9/24

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