## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1

CUAC/CWAF ASRAC Working Group Meeting

- - -

Wednesday, May 20, 2015

- - -

Department of Energy Forrestal Building Room 8E-089 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Washington, D.C. 20585

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 EILEEN BARKAS HOFFMAN 3 EDWARD D. BANTLE 4 JOHN CYMBALSKY 5 ERIC STAS 6 JEREMIAH FREEMAN 7 GREG ROSENQUIST 8 DETLEF WESTPHALEN 9 KATIE COUGHLIN 10 ADAM DARLINGTON 11 XING XU 12 MICHAEL McCABE 13 ANDREW deLASKI 14 PAUL DOPPEL 15 JILL HOOTMAN 16 MARSHALL HUNT 17 CHARLIE McCRUDDEN 18 NICK MISLAK 19 JOHN HURST 20 HARVEY SACHS 21 MICHAEL SHOWS 22 LOUIS STARR

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 MARK TERZIGNI 2 APPEARANCES (CONTINUED): 3 4 RUSTY THARP 5 MEG WALTNER 6 ROBERT WHITWELL 7 SAMI ZENDAH 8 9 ON THE WEBINAR: 10 11 JIM DEL TORO 12 KAREN MEYERS 13 LINDA WILSON 14 MICHAEL WOODFORD 15 MIKE RAY 16 RICHARD MURPHY 17 STEPHEN MADDOX 18 19 PUBLIC ATTENDEE: 20 21 MIKE WOLF, GREENHECK 22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 9:15 A.M. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm Eileen 4 Barkas Hoffman, one of your facilitators for this 5 important negotiated rulemaking. We are in the third 6 meeting and we have a full house, actually. 7 What we would like to do is go around 8 the room, each person please say your name and speak 9 into the mic and organization. And also, we will be 10 asking when you do speak to also identify yourself. 11 We have a new court reporter, and all of you on this 12 side are hard for her to see who is speaking. So if 13 you could identify yourself when you speak, let's 14 start with Charlie. 15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 16 Conditioning Contractors of America. 17 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, HRI. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, United 19 Technologies, Carrier, and somehow my name tag card 20 got lost between yesterday and today. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 22 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 Electric. 2 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and the 3 California Investor Owned Utilities. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied 5 Air. 6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest 7 Energy Efficiency Alliance. 8 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with 9 SMACCNA. 10 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs with ACEEE. 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 12 MR. SHOWS: Mike Shows with UL. 13 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 14 Resources Defense Council. 15 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. 16 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, General Counsel, 17 DoE. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DoE. 19 MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle, FMCS. 20 We have the individuals on the line, and 21 I will just read off the names that I have. We have 22 Karen Mays and Jim Del Toro from the Working Group, I

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 believe, on the line? 2 MR. FREEMAN: Yes. I can read the 3 names, if you would like. We have David Ransom, 4 Diane -- 5 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs is here -- 6 MR. FREEMAN: Diane Jakobs. 7 MS. JAKOBS: -- or Karen Meyers. 8 MR. FREEMAN: Jim Del Toro; Karen 9 Meyers; Linda Wilson; Michael Woodford; Mike Ray; 10 Richard Murphy and Stephen Maddox. 11 MR. BANTLE: Thank you, Jeremiah. 12 And also, Diane, yes, we do have you, as 13 well. 14 Can the public introduce themselves? 15 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, with 16 contractors in support of Trane. 17 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant. 18 MR. LONG: Huang Long, Navigant. 19 MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck. 20 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence 21 Berkeley Labs. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: LBNL.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen, 2 Navigant Consulting. 3 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, 4 Navigant. 5 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 6 Navigant. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: Andrew deLaski was here. 8 I am assuming he will be back in a few moments. 9 MR. WHITWELL: And John Hurst, as well. 10 MR. HOFF: And John Hurst. So let's get 11 started. We are here from 9:00 to 5:00. We have got 12 a full day. Let's see what we can do. 13 Up on the screen and I think we will all 14 have copies of the PowerPoint, but up on the screen 15 is the PowerPoint for today. 16 Let me ask John. John, is it Greg who 17 will be leading us through? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: No? 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Can we make that full 21 screen? We have these printing now so they should be 22 ready in about a half an hour for hard copies, but we

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 are going to go through this. 2 MS. HOFFMAN: That's a blank side, yes. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're going to go 4 through kind of a recap of the work we did last time 5 and bring everyone one up to date on the work we have 6 done during the three business days that we had to 7 complete the work from the last set of meetings. 8 We're going to go will you the 9 commercial furnaces first and then the AC part of 10 agenda. 11 Don't know who is going to start with -- 12 is it Adam? Are you the lucky guy? All right. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with NEEA. 14 We asked, there were some questions of 15 the DoE legal as far as whether different values 16 could be said and I assume that means to be 17 negotiated or not. There were defined names. 18 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DoE. 19 The best I can do is provide you an 20 update that there are ongoing discussions so we don't 21 have the answers yet for those. They are very wavy 22 and. All these things have precedent behind them, so

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 we're sort of grappling with that. I was going to 2 make the joke that this is trying to find flexibility 3 under the EPCA. I won't make that joke. 4 Anyhow, I guess the best advice I can 5 give right now is to say you know the provisions of 6 EPCA and the requirements. Until you hear otherwise 7 from us with the answers to those questions, it's 8 safest to assume you have to comply with all the 9 requirements of EPCA as we continue to look into 10 this. 11 I wish I could give you an answer, but 12 it's beyond just me making a decision, obviously. I 13 apologize. We're trying. Thank you for your 14 patience. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE. 16 I think we still have quite a bit of 17 analysis to go through, so I don't think at this 18 point any of the legal questions asked of DoE are 19 getting in the way of anything at this point. 20 Clearly, they will be important very 21 soon, I hope. My strategy here, if I was 22 negotiating, and I am, is that we all remain flexible

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 in what we want to do. 2 But Eric is right. I mean, the statute 3 is what it is, but let's not take anything off the 4 table just yet until we get to that point. 5 MR. DOPPEL: John, Paul Doppel with 6 Mitsubishi. 7 On that point, this has been like three 8 weeks since the question was asked, and it doesn't 9 appear that an answer is coming. I mean, is it the 10 answer is just no or -- 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I don't think that's 12 the case. I think, as Eric mentioned, that these are 13 very big issues to DoE, the precedent-setting issues, 14 what we've done, what we can do. 15 These decisions go pretty high up in the 16 Department. 17 MR. SASI: Is the answer a plain no, you 18 have already have it? And I'm not saying the answer 19 is going to be no or yes, but it's not an easy no. 20 It's not an easy yes. 21 MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning, everyone. 22 I'm Adam Darlington with Navigant.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 I guess here is list of the topics we 2 are going to go through, but I'm going to go over a 3 couple of slides on the commercial furnace, 4 engineering analysis updates, and then I'll turn it 5 over to Greg for the discussion on downstream 6 analysis, updates and results. So I guess this is 7 just the schedule. I won't spend any time here. 8 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt, 9 PG&E. 10 Could the speakers today at the podium 11 please belt it out? It seems sometimes very quiet so 12 some of us have difficulty hearing. Thank you. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: One of these guys makes 14 that unit on the roof and it makes that humming 15 noise. 16 MR. DARLINGTON: Quickly, to go through 17 this, the updates of the engineering analysis are 18 basically what we, I think, hopefully what we 19 discussed last week, so you know we got some feedback 20 about the assumption about how the heat exchanger 21 surface area would change, and so we had originally 22 assumed for the NOPR analysis that the two blank

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 would increase. We changed that to assume that the 2 surface area would be increased through the addition 3 of two bros, and then for the heat exchanger 4 materials, we got a lot of feedback on those, as 5 well, last time. 6 Originally, we were assuming aluminized 7 steel at all of the non-condensing efficiency levels, 8 and we have updated that to include various types of 9 materials so we're now looking at aluminized steel 10 type 409 seamless steel, N type 316 stainless steel 11 with the assumption that most of the 80 and 81 12 percent models would be made from aluminized steel 13 and then at 82 percent, they would be constructed 14 from stainless steel. 15 And so those, so the percentages of 16 models at each efficiency level constructed from each 17 material were actually implemented in the LCC. So we 18 do have a slide later that talks to that. 19 And then the other update that that we 20 made over the last few days was just to update the 21 raw material prices and purchase part costs to 22 reflect our most recent data.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 So with that, jumping into the updated 2 engineering results, the first table here is for the 3 gas-fired and, as I just mentioned, we had multiple 4 materials. 5 I have bolded a couple of them just 6 because that shows where the most significant share 7 of units was assumed to be in the downstream 8 analysis. 9 At 80 and 81, we assumed the bulk of the 10 units would still be made of aluminized steel. 11 However, we did also account for the fact that some 12 units today are probably going to be at, in the base 13 case, they're going to be made out of certain grades 14 of stainless steel. 15 And then at the 82 percent, we had most 16 of the units being made out of 316, based on some 17 feedback that we got, with also a smaller fraction 18 being made out of 409. 19 Then the other thing shown here is the 20 oil-fired. Really, the changes for that were just 21 updating the material prices and the purchase parts. 22 That's actually all that I have, and the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 rest is Greg. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good morning, 3 everybody. I'm going to be going over the updates to 4 the LCC starting with the LCC results. 5 I guess the most dramatic change here is 6 on the 82 percent AFUE. Before, there were a lot 7 more energy savings, average energy savings, average 8 savings of the LCC, that is. And there were a lot 9 more achieving net benefit. Now there's a lot more 10 with net cost. 11 So you might ask why that number is 12 still positive if there's so many folks with a net 13 cost. It's basically that the folks that are 14 benefitting are benefitting more than the folks who 15 are incurring costs. They're benefitting more than 16 the -- the people incurring a cost are losing, 17 basically. 18 MR. SACHS: Could you go back and let us 19 look at that for a minute? I'm still having trouble 20 with the contrast on the green and white. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Now you know why we 22 don't have handouts. This is the one slide why I

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 didn't print these out. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Because of the colors? 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Because of some of 5 the numbers. 6 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner with 7 NRDC. 8 The main cost, are there other cost 9 changes besides the steel cost change? Did the -- 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, there's two 11 things going on here. The two drivers are the costs, 12 the manufacture production costs and, as I'll get to 13 later, the base case efficiency distribution. That 14 has changed significantly, as well, based on the 15 latest update to the AHRI directory. So that 16 influences the fraction that are achieving that cost, 17 net benefit and no impact, and so what that affects 18 is the amount of energy savings that you can achieve. 19 MS. WALTNER: So the latest AHRI 20 directory shows what impact that -- 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Why don't I jump 22 to jump to that right now?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE. 2 This is the issue where we had more 3 people at 80, and then at 9 percent, I think, was 4 that 82? So the 9 shifted down and a bunch from 80 5 went to 81. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct. Correct. So 7 for 80 percent thermal efficiency, it used to be 70 8 percent. Now it's 29 percent. 9 And for 81 percent thermal efficiency, I 10 think that number was on the order of 29 or -- 11 something in the 20s and now it's up at 70 percent. 12 Again, this is based on the latest AHRI 13 directory, using model availability as a proxy for 14 market share. 15 MR. SACHS: Outdoor -- 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Harvey? 17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Outdoor in 18 this case means RTU and indoor is that small set 19 of -- 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right. 21 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: 95 percent of the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 market is outdoor. 5 percent is indoor. 2 MR. STARR: This Louis Starr with NEEA. 3 Can we go back to the last slide there? 4 Or the one that -- yes. So the average lifetime is 5 15? 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thanks for reminding me 7 about that. The lifetime has been increased to be 8 consistent with what is being used in CUAC. 9 And there, you know, the lifetime for 7 10 and a half tons is around 20 years, for 15, 21 years 11 and for 30 tons, around 33 or 34, and so the weighted 12 average value is 26, and so that increased from the 13 18-year life that was used in the previous set of 14 results. 15 MR. STARR: Okay. A question to 16 follow-up on that, so there was actually two 17 questions, then. 18 Louis Starr, again. 19 The net benefits, how did that change 20 from last time? I don't directly remember that last 21 column, the net benefits. Is that up or down, or how 22 did it -- it seems like the 92 percent at 50.8,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 that's, is that up or down from last time, in 2 particular? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't know. I was 4 wondering if someone at the contractors table could 5 pull up last meeting's presentations so we could see 6 those numbers. 7 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam from 8 Navigant. 9 So looking at the last presentation, it 10 was about the same. We had 50.6 percent net benefit 11 last time. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: What about on EL 2? 13 MR. DARLINGTON: Oh. And EL 2 has 14 changed quite dramatically. It was 88 percent net 15 benefit last time. 16 MR. DeLASKI: So greg, this is Andy 17 deLaski. 18 What I am looking at, sort of the LCC, 19 the big change is at 82, which before was cost 20 effective on average. Now it's shown to essentially 21 not be cost effective with median payback exceeding 22 the life of product and that's driven by the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 presumption that you're using a lot more higher cost 2 materials in the heat exchanger per our discussion 3 last time. 4 So you've weighted that relatively 5 heavily, although I think you said you have some that 6 you're leaving at the lower grade of steel. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. This slide shows 8 for 82 percent that 25 percent would be this 409 9 steel and 75 percent would be 316. 10 MR. DeLASKI: Is 409 the sort of 11 conventional, standard material? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's a, 409 is a lower 14 grade stainless steel. 15 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. Oh, I see. And 316 16 is a higher grade? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. That's correct. 18 Right, Adam? 19 MR. DARLINGTON: Yes. 20 MR. DeLASKI: And that was based on your 21 additional discussions with individual manufacturers? 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I'll let Adam

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 speak to that, because he was the person that spoke 2 to folks. 3 MR. DARLINGTON: Well, yes. So we had 4 gotten some feedback from manufacturers that the 5 grade that would be used is 316. And so what we had 6 observed on the market, though, is that, and we had 7 this discussion last time when we looked at the 82 8 percent, the model that was rated 82 percent and 9 tested 82 percent and had aluminized steel. So the 10 assumption is that some people would get by with a 11 lesser grade. 12 And Greg, actually, I don't want to put 13 you on the spot, but I think like some of these 14 percentages, all of these percentages, I think you 15 guys had someone that was giving you input, right? -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right. That's 17 right. 18 MR. DARLINGTON: -- that works with you 19 that has got expertise in the field? 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. That's correct. 21 We have a subject area expert that we 22 consult with to also provide input on these numbers.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 MR. DeLASKI: I'm not sure this matters 2 a lot. This is Andrew deLaski again. 3 This is kind of a question for the 4 manufacturers, which is: So you have, you know, if 5 the is at 81 percent, say, or 82 percent, how does 6 the market sort where different grades -- I mean, how 7 do you know, right? 8 Because we were saying that the 82 9 percent, that condensation is a problem, given 10 certain installations. So how would it sort, how 11 would the market sort where those products, the 12 higher grade of steel goes, at a given efficiency 13 level? 14 MS. JAKOBS: Hello? This is Diane 15 Jakobs. This is something I've worked on. I would 16 not use 316 on a heat exchanger. Actually, 409 is 17 better than 316, but I would, 2940 C, if I had 18 (inaudible) but that's what we use in the 19 residential. We had the part where we know that 20 there is (inaudible) that we would use 2940 21 stainless steel and we do not use 316 (inaudible) is 22 problems with (inaudible).

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 So actually, 2940 C is more expensive 2 than 316. But I agree with Andrew. I don't know how 3 much this matters except that maybe if you actually 4 designed a furnace 82 percent thermal efficiency, you 5 would be using 2940 (inaudible) or something similar 6 to that. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: That was Diane: 8 MS. JAKOBS: (Inaudible) it's not 9 expensive enough. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Could everyone hear Diane? 11 THE REPORTER: No. 12 MS. JAKOBS: It's really echoing for me. 13 I don't know how you can. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from 15 Carrier. 16 So you asked a question, how would the 17 market sort? I don't think the market would sort. 18 It would be some manufacturers are are going to 19 choose one, some are going to choose another, I guess 20 is what would happen here, most likely. 21 We use the 409. It's an option. It's 22 available to our customers for our furnaces, but it's

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 really more for what Diane talked about last time, 2 where you have condensation that can occur in the 3 head exchanger during the cooling operation. 4 You can have, you can have moisture 5 conduction there. So it's to help to avoid corrosion 6 or reduce corrosion there and prolong the life of the 7 of the heat exchanger. 8 The 316 is more resistant to acidic 9 materials, so if we have a furnace design where we 10 know that there is a significant period of time that 11 it could be occurring or running in a condensing 12 operation, we would want to use something that's more 13 resistant to the acids in the combustion, in the 14 condensation material. 15 MS. JAKOBS: We actually have a 16 passthrough in safety standards, so we just have, we 17 have to pass that (inaudible) and we introduce 18 refrigerants or combustion air. It causes acids to 19 form, and we have to pass (inaudible). 20 MR. DeLASKI: This is Andrew following 21 up, Bob. 22 So I understand what's happening here at

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 82 percent thermal efficiency. 2 At 80 and 81, what the analysis assumes 3 is that this is a range of material, a combination of 4 aluminized steel, 409 and 316. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Which we use today. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Which is in use today. 7 MR. DeLASKI: That's how you make your 8 -- the parts benefits remains today. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 10 MR. DeLASKI: But when you sell a 11 product with -- sort of the base product is 12 aluminized steel; is that a fair statement? And then 13 the other is a sell-up? 14 MR. WHITWELL: It's an option the 15 customers can choose. So like, for example, 16 customers in Canada, where it's colder, may most 17 likely or often choose a stainless steel. Higher 18 elevations also sometimes will select stainless 19 steel, because you can have a higher risk of 20 condensation at higher elevation. 21 MR. DeLASKI: Now you're answering. So 22 then the market does sort itself. So you're saying

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 the customer sorts. 2 MR. WHITWELL: The customers do it, 3 right, yes. 4 MR. DeLASKI: The customer says, I have 5 a, I'm at a risk of condensation -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: And it's based on their 7

-- 8 MR. DeLASKI: -- engineer or whomever. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 11 Just as a follow-up question, in terms 12 of orders of magnitude, does that option of the more 13 resistant head exchanger add 1 percent, 5 percent, 10 14 percent, to the cost of the product? 15 MR. WHITWELL: Cost of the total 16 product? 17 MR. SACHS: Yeah. I mean, is it trivial 18 or something that's notable. 19 MR. WHITWELL: It's substantial. I 20 mean, it's not -- I mean, if you look at it on the 21 total cost of a rooftop unit, I mean, it's maybe not 22 so big, but it's, in terms of dollars, it can be $100

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 or -- 2 MR. DOPPEL: Up there, they're showing 3 it. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm showing you the 5 slide that Adam had presented earlier with the costs. 6 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC. 7 Looking more closely at those cost 8 numbers, it looks like the thing that's really 9 driving the change is the change in the up gauge 10 line. Is that fair to say? And the difference in 11 energy savings? Or are there other changes? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. There are 13 differences in the energy attainments, but you can 14 achieve these because you've altered the base case 15 efficiency, right? So much, but a big component also 16 is increase in the manufacture production costs for 17 putting that stainless steel heat exchanger in there. 18 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. You would 19 also increase the surface area to get a higher 20 efficiency, so whatever your (inaudible) would be 21 (inaudible). 22 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 Yes. I'll reiterate, for people who may 2 not have heard Diane. 3 The total effect means that your fan 4 also has to push more air when you increase the tubes 5 to the heat exchanger, so you have an increase in fan 6 energy, as well, in order to push across that larger 7 heat exchanger. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Should I move on? I 9 had just shown this slide with the percentage 10 breakdown of what type of steel is used at 80 11 percent, 81 percent and 82 percent thermal 12 efficiency. 13 This is a repeat from the last meeting, 14 just updating the cost numbers to 2014 dollars, so 15 other than that, nothing has changed. This, again, 16 only applies to the 90-plus thermal efficiency units. 17 You saw this earlier. This is the base 18 case efficiency distribution and noted what changed 19 from what was used previously. 20 Again, the big change was the increased 21 market share of 81 percent thermal efficiency and no 22 market share of 82 percent thermal efficiency.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 This shows what happens to that 2 efficiency distribution over time, very little change 3 in the base case. That is the case without 4 standards. 5 This shows the shipments, the new 6 shipments that were developed to be consistent with 7 what is being used in rooftop air-conditioners. 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: I have a question on 9 that. This is Dave with Allied. 10 The NOPR analysis showed a significant, 11 like a 40 percent, decline in shipments for rooftop 12 products, and that's not reflected here. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, what you're 14 seeing here is the base case. That is the case 15 without any standards either on AC or furnaces. 16 But we'll get into the shipments model 17 and the results for that at the end of this 18 presentation, which is maybe today or tomorrow. 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Thank you. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, this is what you 21 saw last week, just a repeat of what the trial 22 standard levels are and the fact that trial standard

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 level number 4 was the proposed standard level. 2 This shows the results, and again, the 3 TSL 4 I believe had energy savings, full fuel cycle 4 energy savings, of around .5, .55, and they have gone 5 up. 6 Again, the big reason for the increase 7 is the fact that the lifetime of the product has 8 increased, so -- but again, relatively speaking, you 9 know, we're still talking about small numbers across 10 all these trial standard levels, of course, with the 11 exception of trial standard level number 5. 12 If you look at the net present value, 13 now, the maximum net present value sits at, still 14 sits, at TSL-4. I thought -- I was about to say 15 TSL-3, but it's TSL-4. 16 So that's all I had for commercial warm 17 air furnaces. It looks like people are still looking 18 over the numbers and trying to digest them, so -- 19 MS. WALTNER: Yes. John, I don't know 20

-- 21 I'm sorry. Meg Waltner, NRDC. 22 I don't know if you know when we're

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 going to get the printouts, or is it possible to get 2 them e-mailed sooner? Just, I'd like to spend a 3 little time looking. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. They might 5 already be in the docket, but I can send an e-mail, 6 as well. 7 Go off the record for a second. 8 (Discussion held off the record.) 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Could we take maybe a 10 ten-minute break, I was just thinking maybe a 11 ten-minute break, and see where the printouts are? 12 Let's take a ten-minute break. Thank 13 you. I will exercise my authority. 14 (Recess at 9:46 a.m., resuming at 10:13 15 a.m.) 16 MS. HOFFMAN: We're back on the record. 17 Hello. Eileen Hoffman here. We're back on the 18 record. 19 Just a few reminders: Identify 20 yourself, speak loudly into the microphone and, those 21 of you on the webinar, only one at a time. That has 22 been working out. We'll hear from Greg again. Thank

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 you. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi. I'm just here to 3 see if anyone has any additional questions on the 4 furnace analysis. 5 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. 6 Could you go back to slide 9, please? 7 Sorry. My slide numbers are different. Slide 10. 8 So I'm curious for EL-0 the average 9 installed cost went down from the last analysis? 10 2062 in the last analysis. Do you know what's 11 driving that decrease in cost? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I can only assume that 13 has something to do with a different manufacture 14 production cost, but no. No. I'll have to get back 15 to you on that unless, Adam, you have any ideas? 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Speak into the microphone. 17 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam from 18 Navigant. Sorry. So you said the average installed 19 cost went down from the last time? 20 Greg, so when we updated for the most 21 recent materials prices and purchase price, actually, 22 all of the MBCs, including the baseline, are

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 increased from what we had before. So that doesn't 2 explain it. Sorry. 3 MR. DeLASKI: I'm looking at -- yeah. 4 So I'm looking at slide 9 this time, $2,087 for the 5 average installed cost 80 percent. 6 And then from our last meeting, slide 11 7 was $2,262 for 80 percent. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: I can get back to you, 9 maybe after lunch -- 10 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- with an answer. 12 MS. WALTNER: Thank you. 13 MR. DeLASKI: And DSL-1, Dave is 14 pointing out also, went down, DSL-2, where then it 15 goes up so -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I will get back to you 17 on that later today. 18 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. And just sorry to 19 drill on that a little bit, that's almost a $500 20 incremental cost between EL-0 and -2, whereas back on 21 the slide with the steel prices, it's more like a 22 $330 incremental cost between the two steel costs.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember, 2 this is a manufacture production cost and we are 3 marking it up, right, to a customer price, so there 4 are mark-ups involved in taking that NPC into a 5 retail price. 6 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 7 Carrier. 8 So looking at this slide, we see that at 9 EL-2 level, it has a 25-year payback. 62.6 percent 10 of the buildings have a net cost increase. So 11 looking at this, it looks like you would pick EL-1 1 12 based on the payback being longer than the life of 13 the equipment for anything -- for EL-2, plus the 14 large percentage of buildings that get penalized in 15 terms of cost at the higher levels. 16 Yet on the other slide it shows, I mean, 17 it seems like it conflicts with that data, if you go 18 to slide 16. This just seems to be in conflict. I 19 can't quite understand it. 20 But can we then go back to 9 for a 21 second? So does this suggest that we should be 22 looking at EL-1 for the gas-fired commercial warm air

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 furnaces? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: He's doesn't answer 3 that. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I don't answer 5 that, and the bottom -- 6 MR. DeLASKI: I'll you my response, 7 which is that yes, those numbers hold up. I mean, 8 I'm not going to sit here and advocate for a product 9 with a 26-year payback. 10 That's not, you know, the main question 11 is a relevant question, which is: Is there an error 12 here so we can get to the bottom of it? So I'd like 13 to hear an answer to those questions to see whether 14 that increment is actually proper. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I agree. 16 MR. DeLASKI: See if they're in line, 17 but yeah, those numbers hold up. That's not a 18 standard that we would support. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Even I might not support 20 that. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I mean, then we 22 got to dig into the numbers a lot deeper, because I

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 don't understand how this reconciles with the other 2 numbers. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: The MPV? Yeah. You can 4 answer that question. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, like I said 6 before, we are dealing with a longer product lifetime 7 now than we had done previously, so that does wash 8 out, wash out completely the effect of the base case 9 efficiency distribution, changing significantly. 10 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni 11 with SMACCNA. 12 So if I understand correctly, you're 13 saying the lifespan of these units averages outs to 14 about 26 years? 15 Among other questions I sent out between 16 the last meeting, a bunch of questions to a number of 17 contractors, and one of the questions I asked was 18 lifespan of units, and the answers consistently came 19 back 15 to 20 years, 15 to 20 years. 20 So I'm not sure that the 26-year, 21 especially as an average -- that might be a high-end, 22 but I don't know that that would be an average value

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 based on the responses I got from the contractors. 2 MR. DeLASKI: I guess I would follow up 3 on Bob's point that it's a little puzzling. I don't 4 -- the math is kind of beyond my -- I can't -- my 5 intuition tells me that if you have a 26-year payback 6 and you have that ratio of winners to losers, it's 7 how to see how you get to a positive national MPV. 8 Again, it's hard just reading the 9 numbers to understand it. 10 ROSENQUIST: What's being carried 11 forward from the life cycle cost analysis is 12 basically, average values that you see in this table. 13 And so although we have more losers than 14 winners here, there is still a positive overall, and 15 that gets carried forward into the national impact 16 analysis and, in turn, the additional years of 17 operation result in the increase in energy savings. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE. 19 So maybe this will help frame it a 20 little bit. 21 So what that percentage simply means is 22 that, when you just count people, you have more

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 losers, but the people who win use the product very 2 intensively, so it doesn't -- the sheer count doesn't 3 translate into the MPV. 4 The same with a light bulb. If you have 5 five light bulbs in your house and you use one 12 6 hours a day and the other four, you use a half an 7 hour a day. You have four losers and one winner. 8 But the fact that you're using that thing 12 hours a 9 day overwhelms the energy savings portion, which gets 10 carried through to the MPV. Does that -- so that's 11 how the math kind of works there. 12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 13 Thanks, John for that, but I want to 14 return to this service life question, which can been 15 framed analytically. 16 The first thing I want to note is that 17 your revised analysis really does separate out the 18 very large, at 30-some, 33 years, I believe, versus 19 low 20s, 20 and 21, for the two smaller classes. 20 I can chew on the 20 and 21. They sort 21 of make sense, not only with what Mark has brought 22 but what I think we heard at a very early meeting

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 about the internal planning numbers used by the 2 manufacturers themselves. 3 So I just want to make sure that we're 4 not using that 26 in the analysis across all classes. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: So when it comes to 6 furnaces, we only have the classes of warm air and 7 oil fired, right? I mean gas fired and oil fired so 8 -- as opposed to the three equipment classes that we 9 have in CUAC, and there, we are using those distinct 10 lifetimes for those classes. 11 MR. STARR: Then I think, just in terms 12 of industry practice, at 26 was weighted, how -- 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I would have to 14 get back to you on that, on that, probably -- 15 MR. SACHS: It's not a number that makes 16 sense to me, and Mark and I were having a little 17 conversation here. It reminded me of a slogan used 18 by all the investment advisors which is, "Past 19 performance is no guarantee of future performance." 20 And the service life of stuff that's 21 wearing out now I would think, based on my work on 22 ASHRAE committees dealing with service lives, is

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 probably not a real good design, a guide, to what 2 bright manufacturers are doing now to control cost as 3 a guide for predicting future costs. 4 I think very long lives assumed are 5 almost a slap in the face to the ability of 6 manufacturers to do advanced manufacturing. 7 MR. WHITWELL: It's a backhanded 8 compliment. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. SACHS: I would prefer to say left11 handed. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from 13 Trane. 14 So taking John's analogy -- and that 15 helped, John -- who are the users that are doing the 16 12 hours in here? 17 I mean, you know, can you tell me who 18 are those that are using them longer, like you said, 19 so, therefore, getting that energy -- I'm trying to 20 put my head around who they would be to understand 21 where the changes are happening. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Like the air

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 conditioner analysis, there is a, there is a building 2 sample, and, you know, I will have to get back to you 3 on specifics, but in any building sample, there are 4 always folks that use their equipment more than other 5 buildings. 6 I mean, it's really, I mean, it sounds 7 like you want to really get after what parts of maybe 8 the country or what building types in our sample are 9 using it so frequently; is that more or less the 10 question? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I would want to get 12 after that if we are not going to settle on TSO-2. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 14 Is the building sample for CWAF the same 15 as CUAC? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: CUAC. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's not the exact same 18 building sample, no. So again, in CUAC, we're using 19 that 1033 building sample, and for CWAF, I actually 20 don't know what the building sample exactly is. 21 I want it consistent, so again, it's 22 another thing I'll have to get back to you after

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 lunch. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE. 3 Also, not how long you use the 4 equipment, also the prices for that building is, will 5 impact that economic, so it's not just hours of use. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Gas prices. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 9 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 10 I think when you look at your sample or 11 the building samples you look at, if you look at food 12 service and kind of figure out how that kind of 13 weighs into things, I think you might be seeing a lot 14 in that sector in colder climates, and that might be 15 what's driving it. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hearing no further 17 questions, I'll move on to the air conditioner 18 engineering analysis, and I'll pass it over to Detlef 19 Westphalen. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE. 21 So just to close out the furnace, we 22 have a couple of to-do's. We'll look into the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 history Mike brought up, we'll look at the building 2 samples to address that issue, but otherwise, we 3 think we've pretty much put the analysis to bed, 4 notwithstanding those two issues, unless someone else 5 raises something now. 6 (No response.) 7 MR. WHITWELL: No, I agree, John. But I 8 just wondered, we had a little discussion about life? 9 Do we want to talk some more about that, or do you 10 want to wait until we get into it on CUAC? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think, I think 12 the issue is more pronounced with the AC part, so to 13 the extent we change it there, we will flow that 14 back. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. On to air 18 conditioning. 19 I'm Detlef Westphalen, Navigant 20 Consulting. I'll start the air conditioning 21 presentation here with CUAC engineering analysis 22 updates.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 So just an overview of the status, since 2 the last meeting, we did not make any changes to the 3 7 and a half ton and 15-ton results so we won't be 4 discussing those in much detail here. 5 We developed energy use results for 6 30-ton models. We did this for all of the efficiency 7 levels involved. We did not complete that in time to 8 pass all of that information to LBNL for them to do 9 the LCC and energy use analysis for all of those 10 efficiency levels, but they'll be presenting up to 11 EL-3.5, so stay tuned for that. 12 We have completed the EL-4 and EL-5 13 analyses for the 30-ton, however, and so they'll be 14 able to run with that after these meetings. 15 We identified the specific 16 manufacturers, which of their 7 and a half ton and 17 30-ton models they used in the analysis and we have 18 had some back-and-forth on, particularly on the 19 30-ton on those. 20 We've had some discussion with curb 21 adaptors, the curve curb adapter vendors, in order to 22 try to get to the bottom of what's going on with curb

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 adaptors. 2 And related to that, we've also 3 conducted some additional review of unit size trends 4 and then developed an approach for trying to 5 integrate the need for the curb adaptors or 6 conversion curbs, if you will, into the analysis at 7 different efficiency levels and not necessarily just 8 at one efficiency level, but, since it would likely 9 be a distribution, depending on the particular 10 designs that the different manufacturers have. 11 And then we also developed cost curves 12 for the 30-ton models. 13 So launching into some of this, the 14 details for, that we have product descriptions as we 15 had for the 7 and a half and 15, we have them now for 16 the 30-tons. 17 And I've been a little bit more 18 reluctant to throw all the data out there and to pass 19 around all the hand-outs, because some of the 20 discussions we've had with the manufacturers on the 21 30-ton models, you know, potentially, some of that 22 information is privileged and I guess to some extent,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 I would like to get some feedback from the people 2 that we had those discussions with on what we could 3 provide to the rest of the group, and potentially, if 4 it needs to be sanitized in some fashion, how it 5 would be sanitized. 6 The team has prepared the hand-outs of 7 the component wattage profiles that essentially show 8 the calculation of the IEERs from the simulated test 9 points that would be used to do an IEER calculation 10 and also the correlations that are then handed off to 11 the downstream analysis. 12 And so the question is, maybe you want 13 to think about that, the people around the table, who 14 this applies to as to whether handing that out to the 15 whole group is acceptable or if there is anything 16 sensitive in those results themselves. We don't have 17 to have an answer right away. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So Detlef, I don't know 19 if it includes some of our information or not, but I 20 think it probably does. So I guess maybe we could 21 look at that on the side before deciding whether or 22 not it can be disclosed.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 What I'm saying is look specifically at 2 what it is that you would be, that you think you 3 might need to be disclosed and so once we look at, 4 once I look at that, we can decide. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So the component 6 wattage profiles for the 30-ton analyses, the initial 7 versions of those I believe I e-mailed out to the 8 manufacturers already for the -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But then I think 10 there was some, there might have been some back and 11 forth on that. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I think there was still 13 back and forth. That why I'm like him. I can't -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: In fact, I know that -- I 15 just saw an e-mail from Jim to you this morning. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Same thing here. I want 17 to know at what point we are and what we went back 18 and forth. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah. Should we 20 talk privately or -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes. Not right 22 now, but we can talk off-line during a break or

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 something. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 3 Certainly, in the interest of as much disclosure as 4 possible, we want to figure out what can be revealed, 5 but we want to protect what you feel should be 6 protected. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Going back to these 9 product descriptions, there is not much that has 10 changed in these tables as compared to last time. 11 Some of the information which was wrong has been 12 replaced with the triple asterisks, indicating not 13 disclosed, and so we have to resolve how much of that 14 can be disclosed. 15 This table just shows the outdoor heat 16 exchangers and outdoor fan information and then 17 indoor heat exchangers and fans. 18 And so at this point I can't say a whole 19 lot more about this until we have resolved those 20 disclosures. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So you're asking, I guess 22 you're asking about disclosing the same information

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 that's already been shared on the 7 and a half and 2 the 15-ton? Or is it -- 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. Basically, those 4 component wattage profiles that then show, for 5 instance, what the indoor fan power might be. If 6 that's sensitive, then it's something we might be 7 concerned about that, but then if we cannot disclose 8 that, then the whole group has to sort of come 9 together as to, you know, how can we move forward. 10 MR. WHITWELL: So let's take a look at 11 that. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do you want to do now? 13 MR. BANTLE: This is Ted. 14 Yes. Navigant and the manufacturers, is 15 it worth taking 15 minutes now and doing this? 16 MR. WHITWELL: I guess, I guess the -- 17 yeah. Let's do it, but -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MR. WHITWELL: -- the horse is already 20 out of the barn on the 7 and a half and the 15-ton, 21 right? And so I don't know about whether I have any 22 additional concern on the 30-ton.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 MR. BANTLE: Why don't we take a quick 2 break, and you can check out the -- do you have the 3 information available? 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: For the 30-ton, yeah. 5 One thing I wanted to say about the 7 6 and a half and the 15 which was different was that we 7 initially developed that information with publicly8 available information. We didn't get any input from 9 the manufacturers before developing it. 10 MR. WHITWELL: All right. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Different barn. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But it was 14 reviewed with the manufacturers? 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 16 MR. BANTLE: Let's take 15. Is that 17 enough time, 15 minutes, for you to review that with 18 the manufacturers? 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: I hope so. 20 MR. BANTLE: We'll check in. It Is 21 10:35. We'll come back at 10:50. Thank you. 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Off the record. Off the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 record now. 2 (Recess at 10:36 a.m., resuming at 11:03 3 a.m.) 4 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi. We're going back on 5 the record. We're going back on the record. Eileen 6 Hoffman. 7 Detlef, okay? 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: So it appears that the 9 manufacturers -- 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi, everybody. Let's go 11 back. Thank you. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the manufacturers 13 involved are comfortable with us showing this 14 top-level information which was passed on to LBNL, 15 and so bear with me a minute while I pull up the 16 file. 17 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt, 18 PG&E. 19 What would be the best PowerPoint slide 20 to relate to as you discuss this? 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: This would be looking 22 at the 30-ton model descriptions, the three slides

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 that show the details of the different efficiency 2 levels. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: 20, 21 and 22. 4 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 5 (Discussion held off the record.) 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: The additional detail, 7 which we were going to hand out but instead will show 8 to the group, includes essentially these component 9 watt knowledge profiles. You will remember those, 10 these tables that we showed for the 7 and a half and 11 15-ton. These are for 30-ton, and each is for a 12 representative actual unit, one for each of the 13 efficiency levels considered. 14 So this one that you see now is the 15 baseline, and it is a constant air volume unit. So 16 you can see the four different rows showing 17 performance at four different ambient temperatures 18 and the wattages of the various components used in 19 IEER calculation, adding up to EER for each of the 20 test points and then adjustment, either interpolation 21 in order to get the performance at one of the target 22 IEER load levels, or adjustment for cyclic

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 performance. 2 So this is the baseline constant air 3 volume. You can see the target IEER is 10.6. This 4 one isn't exactly 10.6. They're all approximately 5 matching the targets. 6 Then here, for path one, path one is 7 constant air volume. This is the EL-1 on the 8 constant air volume path. The IEER is 11.6. This 9 shows, similarly, the performance of the unit at the 10 different levels. 11 This is path 2, the VAV path for EL-1, 12 also approximately 11.6 IEER. If you want to take a 13 closer look at the comparison, for example, for the 14 CAV, you can see that the indoor power fan remains 15 constant at the 29.91 watts, whereas for the VAV, the 16 indoor fan power gets lower as you go to the lower 17 stages. 18 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. 19 Is that SAV, staged air volume? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: For 30-ton, we didn't 21 do staged air volume. We did VAV, and so -- 22 MR. STAFF: And that's based on sales

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 data or something or -- 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's based on the 3 input that we got from the group here in the 4 discussions. 5 MR. STARR: I thought we were going to 6 look at, once we got the AHRI data back and see what 7 the split or -- probably, it's right. I don't know. 8 I'm saying, but I thought we were going to -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Same model. Jill Hootman, 10 Trane. 11 The AV, it's the same model, and the 12 staged air. It's the same model. 13 MR. STARR: All right. 14 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell for 15 Carrier. 16 We do offer both, but still, the VAV is 17 a significant percentage of what we sell. 18 MR. STARR: And we are going to get 19 information -- I mean, I don't sell air handlers, so 20 I don't know what the percentage of sales are, but we 21 eventually will see how much. 22 That was one of the things in data

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 selection, is in that last stage, we're going to see, 2 and the AHRI, I think, is collecting that data and 3 they're going to see what percentage is at 50/50 at 4 80 percent VAV and not. 5 But I guess you didn't necessarily make 6 the distinction of staged air volume and continuously 7 variable air volume. Okay. All right. 8 So, but we'll still be getting that 9 data, but it won't necessarily tell us the split 10 between the staged air volume and -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 13 MR. HUNT: Excuse me. Marshall Hunt, 14 PG&E. 15 So the EER requirement for this size 16 equipment, I was looking here at the ASHRAE. Is it 17

-- 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think it's 10, right? 19 MR. HUNT: -- 9.8 or 9.9? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think, if you 21 consider without gas heat, with electric or no heat, 22 I think it's 10.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 MR. HUNT: Oh, okay. It's 10. Yeah. 2 There it is. Okay. 10, and it drops to 9.8 with the 3 gas. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. 5 MR. HUNT: So we're, I'm just making 6 sure we got the 95 covered. Okay. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: So moving down, we have 8 EL-2, path 1 and 2 a little bit further. Target is 9 12 and a half here. Yeah. These are all more than 10 10 at the EER level. 11 Now, one thing we did, which probably 12 doesn't affect the results overly much, is the 13 control power input is higher for the VAV units. 14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. 15 I'm looking at the fan power and CAV and 16 path 2, EL-2. So actually, if you move your screen, 17 is it -- it seems like constant air volume is at 18 3,100 and the other one is at 3,600 for stage 4. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're looking at the 20 upper table here? 21 MR. STARR: Yes. I'm looking, trying to 22 compare those two table, and it looks like the fan

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 power is 2,800 as opposed to 763. 2 I'm trying to think if that makes sense 3 or maybe you can just help explain it to me. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh. You're asking, why 5 is the -- 6 MR. STARR: Higher efficiency. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- full-load fan power 8 higher for the VAV unit as compared with the CAV 9 unit? 10 MR. STARR: Right. Okay. I think I 11 know, but why don't you explain it? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess for one 13 thing, these are particular units that happen to have 14 the fan that they have, and the other thing is you 15 can afford a little bit higher fan power for a VAV at 16 100 percent because you're going to spend little time 17 there and so that additional energy is not going to 18 hit you that many hours of the year. 19 MR. STARR: So are you saying that 20 they're choosing to maybe use a fan that uses a 21 little more energy because they know they're going to 22 be able to make savings by being able to turn that

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 fan down later and so they're maybe choosing in this 2 particular model to use a fan system that uses a 3 little more energy than a typical one; is that what 4 you're getting at? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Possible. I mean, the 6 other thing is, for VAV, you know, when you put it in 7 a building, you have potentially additional pressure 8 drop associated with the terminal boxes. 9 MR. STARR: So in other words, you have 10 a higher external static, because you have to 11 maintain the supply pressure in order for the VAV 12 boxes to work, so you're working at a higher external 13 static pressure than more constant air volume 14 systems. That's probably more like what's happening. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell with 16 Carrier. 17 Certainly, that's part of it, but Louis, 18 you have to keep in mind that these are different 19 designs that exist on the market, right? 20 So it could be, if you look at 21 refrigeration systems, there is differences in the 22 evaporator coils, so maybe one has more pressure drop

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 than the other; could be differences in internal 2 static pressure requirement; plus whatever models 3 were picked may have been, may be units that are 4 selected for higher external static, too. 5 So it's hard, difficult, I think, to 6 compare details of one versus the other versus the 7 other because these are all different designs from 8 different manufacturers. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: For different customer 10 needs. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: And we did take a look 13 at the trends of the fan power to make sure that 14 there wasn't a clear outlier. And in most of these 15 cases, there weren't that many units to choose from 16 in order to allow us to give an IEER. 17 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. 18 From my point of view, so what Bob is 19 saying that different ones, as long as these units 20 are supposed to somewhat be representative of their 21 class of efficiency, so as long as they're more or 22 less representative of the ones that you chose, then

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 it should be fine. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 3 MR. STARR: So I think, I'm going to 4 guess that the main reason we're seeing the higher 5 thing is because a VAV system has to operate at a 6 higher external static pressure for the VAV system to 7 work as opposed to constant air volume, you don't 8 have VAV boxes downstream that you have to overcome 9 that pressure drop, whereas in a constant air volume 10 system or in a VAV system, you do. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. You also have 12 the drive losses, which it's not going to be huge, 13 but -- 14 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. 15 To drill down on Louis's question, do 16 you think this unit is representative of the class? 17 What I thought I heard you say was that 18 there's a lot of variation, and these profiles could 19 vary a lot depending on the specific unit 20 characteristics. 21 MR. WHITWELL: It would be hard for me 22 to say. I mean, I am not the one that did the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 analysis to look at all of the products that are in 2 the market, right? 3 I think that's a question for Navigant, 4 but there are going to be differences. The constant 5 air volume may have been a larger cabinet and it 6 could have less internal static pressure, lower 7 internal pressure drop because of that, while the VAV 8 may be a smaller cabinet. I don't know. 9 MS. WALTNER: Det, have you looked at 10 load profiles like this across multiple units at the 11 same, for the same category, or have you sort of 12 picked these units and come up with this? 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: We've done this with 14 one representative unit at each combination of class 15 and efficiency level. 16 I mean, it takes a fair amount of work 17 to try to represent the performance at all these 18 levels. Certainly, we could twist the manufacturers' 19 arms and force them to give us all their test data 20 and then we'd have it, but I'm sure the group 21 probably wouldn't collectively go for that. 22 So, you know, we've taken as much

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 publicly, public information as we can and developed, 2 This is what we think the performance is. 3 And 30-units are a little bit more 4 complicated, so we've had a little bit more back and 5 forth with the manufacturers and that's why we didn't 6 just hand out the information. 7 We did look at the trends of the fan 8 power and, you know, condensive fan power and EER 9 versus the particular load point, and there are 10 variations. 11 I think when you get to this kind of a 12 product and the complexity of this kind of a product, 13 you can't have a sort of a continuum or continuous 14 type of analysis. There's just not enough, there 15 aren't enough, there aren't enough examples out 16 there. 17 So, you know, if somebody chooses a CAV, 18 they might actually be buying something like this, 19 because there might not be a CAV that has the 2,800. 20 We didn't look at all of them to verify, 21 but that's an issue. If it makes sense to try to get 22 to a -- I mean, I don't know how we could, other than

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 stepping through all the detail and taking like a 2 half-hour look at, all right, let's see what the fan 3 power trend is -- to some extent, I'm trusting the 4 manufacturers to tell me that, yeah, we think that's 5 representative for their units. 6 I mean, they know their competitors' 7 units, perhaps not at the same level of detail, but 8 they have some understanding. 9 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's pretty 10 representative. It would be difficult and it'd take 11 a lot of time to go through everything, for sure, so 12 I think Navigant has done a pretty reasonable job. 13 MS. WALTNER: Thank you. 14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 15 just one last point. I'll let that be it. 16 But I'll have everybody know that if you 17 look at a constant air volume system and the IEER is 18 12.49 and then you look at a VAV system and it's 19 essentially the same, 12.45. 20 But essentially, if you think about it, 21 if you're a consumer out there and you want to buy a 22 more efficient piece of equipment or whatever, you

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 would typically think, Oh, I'll put a VAV system on 2 it because it will save energy. 3 But really, the metric here is showing 4 that, really, the constant air volume uses or is just 5 as efficient as the VAV unit, where in reality, I 6 think actually, I think a VAV system does indeed save 7 energy, but I think for the typical consumer, it's a 8 little confusing, and for programs, too, as well. 9 10 MR. WHITWELL: But Louis, keep in mind, 11 I think that was Navigant's goal, was to pick units 12 that had the same or similar IEER for the analysis, 13 right? 14 But i mean, no question, if you have, if 15 we have a unit with the same, everything else being 16 the same except it's got the staged air volume or the 17 VAV, you would expect to see a higher number on that 18 unit because it's going to use less fan power. And 19 that's, you know, that's correct. 20 But because of the way the analysis is 21 being done to compare units at the same IEER level -- 22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 And you also know that the constant air 2 volume unit is almost half a point higher at EER main 3 load. 4 MR. STARR: I think it's very -- you 5 know, if you think about, you're going, you're a 6 customer and say, buy this more -- a VAV system 7 probably costs more than a constant air volume 8 system, but they look and they say, Well, the IEERs 9 are the same level. 10 It just seems like it can cause market 11 confusion in general. 12 MR. WHITWELL: But keep in mind, these 13 are not, these products would not be in the same 14 catalog, right? Because they, I mean, they very well 15 are different manufacturers. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Randy? 17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 18 MS. HOFFMAN: Rusty? 19 MR. THARP: One thing that's -- what 20 manufacturers typically do is to take our constant 21 air volume unit and change out the air moving system 22 to get our VAV or SAV unit, and so it's -- what's

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 being done here is not what a manufacturer would do 2 in the development process, right? 3 MR. WHITWELL: So that's why -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Or propose to a customer. 5 Or propose -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: That's why for this 7 analysis, you're not seeing the same equipment at 8 constant volume versus variable air volume, because 9 you would have a different IEER value on the VAV 10 unit. 11 MR. STARR: So you're saying, in other 12 words, if you're a Carrier unit and you switched up 13 to your Carrier VAV system, you would see a change in 14 the IEER variable, right? 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, assuming we're 16 taking advantage of that in our rating. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Your choice in rating 18 that. 19 MR. WHITWELL: But yes. If you look at 20 our product line, you will see, they'll see constant 21 volume units and staged air volume units and they'll 22 look very much the same except they're going to have

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 the staged air volume and variable air volume will 2 have higher EER levels. 3 MR. STARR: Think about -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: IEER levels. Sorry. 5 MR. STARR: If you think about a crafty 6 contractor, right, he'd say, Well, why buy the 7 Carrier VAV system. I've got a VAV system that has 8 the same IEER as the other one. 9 Of course, I guess you would, the 10 Carrier one would, in theory, have a higher IEER 11 value, so that's what they would be buying. But if 12 they got it at the same price, a VAV system as a 13 constant air volume system, they're thinking -- you 14 know. 15 MR. WHITWELL: But they're buying it for 16 its utility, which is the VAV utility, right? So 17 they're are going to make a choice based -- they're 18 going to look at the VAV units that are available on 19 the market and they're going to make a decision. 20 MR. STARR: All right. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I just want to make one 22 other distinction. Jill Hootman from Trane.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 We have a choice in rating systems, and 2 because we're in certification with the government 3 and certification with AHRI, we may not take 4 advantage of an IEER rating for VAV and make sure 5 that that same basic model is the same as the 6 constant volume, because our exposure to testing and 7 exposure to certification becomes higher. So 8 manufacturers make those choices. We conservatively 9 rate, sometimes. 10 MR. STARR: I see. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Because of the exposure it 12 takes. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So here are the CAV and 14 VAV for the EL-2.5. These are for target 13.2. 15 Again, you can see the CAV EER is quite a bit higher. 16 And then we get to -- 17 MR. HUNT: Could you go back just a 18 second? Thank you. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yep. 20 So then when we get to EL-3 and -4, it's 21 all VAV, and Louis, to your point that CAV only goes 22 so far when the metric is IEER.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 2 So I was just looking at the fan energy 3 column. How did those numbers compare with the other 4 ones, the previous EL? 5 So they look like they're the constant 6 air volume use. They're actually a little bit, 7 they're more at full load and then less at part load; 8 is that right? If you look back to your CAV sample? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. The CAVs 10 generally have less indoor fan power as compared with 11 the VAV full load. 12 MR. STARR: And so that's -- so you're 13 using -- they must have a different static pressure 14 assumption in the test procedure; that's where it's 15 coming from? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: No. They're all, 17 they're all the same static pressure. The way the -- 18 MR. STARR: Okay. It stays the same. 19 Okay. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the way that the 21 static pressure requirement in the field affects this 22 is that you might have a bigger motor and so it's

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 operating at a lower load point, which makes it a 2 little bit less efficient. 3 MR. STARR: I see. Okay. It's not too 4 bad. It's 1,920 for that one, and the other is, the 5 VAV one has -- I'm looking at stage 1, and the 6 wattage at CAV is 1,920 and then if you go up to 7 EL-4, kind of look and see what the similar 8 equivalent value would be, it's 1,692. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: If you're just looking 10 at one of the components, they don't necessarily 11 monotonically decrease as you would go up the 12 efficiency ladder. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: EL-5, 115.6. So here 15 we worked a little bit harder than perhaps we needed 16 to because we were so close on the percent load. We 17 could have just used those numbers rather than 18 interpolating or adjusting. 19 That's the set of these tables for all 20 the ELs for the 30-ton. And then we also created the 21 correlation that LBNL used in their analysis, their 22 energy use analysis. I don't know how much time we

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 want to spend with this. 2 Initially, one of, I mean, one thing 3 we've done with all of these is to check to make sure 4 we get back to the same IEER levels when we plug them 5 in to the IEER calculation. 6 Should I increase the -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: It's like an eye test. 8 MR. SACHS: I'm afraid getting close 9 doesn't help me. 10 MR. WHITWELL: That's what I was 11 thinking. 12 MR. SACHS: About me or you? 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So if we put more 14 significant figures in some of these numbers -- 15 MR. HUNT: This is Marshal with PG&E. 16 Does this give the data that you could 17 do a system map and then work with kind of the 18 concept that Techlor (sic) has from the ASHRAE 19 committee -- I forget the number -- where you get the 20 right numbers and then you can simulate properly the 21 system, or not? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: These correlations

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 assume the same return air conditions as for the IEER 2 test. 3 MR. HUNT: Oh. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: They assume different 5 ambient but the same return conditions. 6 MR. HUNT: Which is not the case in a 7 true simulation. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: I imagine the 90.1 9 stimulation is more sophisticated. 10 MR. HUNT: Yes. Thank you. 11 MR. STARR: Louis from NEEA. 12 The other thing is, I think these are 13 steady-state conditions, and I think the Lawrence 14 thing may have some stuff, assuming about whether 15 they are coming up to the load or coming down on the 16 load, whether you're -- it's getting hotter outside 17 or it's colder. 18 MR. WHITWELL: The return air conditions 19 change. 20 MR. STARR: Kind of like when you're 21 driving up the hill, you have to push gas more, and 22 if you're coasting down the hill, you use less gas

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 but you're going the same speed, different amounts of 2 energy. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: You see some of these 4 are two-stage, some of them have more stages. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Can we get copies of this 6 for the Working Group? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's what we were 9 saying. We're showing it but not distributing it. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you. Asked 11 and answered. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Does anybody want to 13 see anything in particular here? I mean, it's is a 14 lot of numbers. 15 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. 16 I, you know, there's too much to look at 17 this far away. All I'd ask is kind of, when you 18 looked at this stuff, did it make sense to you and 19 sort of some of the trends and what you would expect, 20 the things that are happening in there? Was it kind 21 of consistent to what you would expect to happen? 22 Really, it's just a question if you

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 checked the numbers or is it really just kind of, 2 These are what the numbers are that came back and 3 with that level of detail you looked at it. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: As I said, we checked 5 to make sure we get the same IEER calculations back, 6 and because the performance versus ambient 7 temperature is not strictly linear, the calculation 8 is -- you know, there's a little bit of ground left 9 over there when we compare. 10 But then, you know, one of the things 11 that was an issue with the NOPR analyses was the 12 trend versus on ambient temperature of the capacity 13 of the power of the compressor. 14 And we look at these, you know, the 15 slopes, which is the first line here, of the capacity 16 correlation for the compressor and they're all 17 somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 negative number for 18 the highest stage, which you're losing capacity as 19 the ambient temperature increases. 20 But they're all about the same range 21 there, and none of them get unusually high like we 22 saw for some of the NOPR correlations.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 Some of these numbers are just, you 2 know, the indoor fan powers are, you know, there's no 3 correlation there. It's just the number, the same 4 number that you saw on the wattage table. 5 The condenser fan we're assuming 6 increases its input power a little bit as the air 7 temperature goes down because of the higher density 8 of the cooler air. 9 But other than that, we have a linear 10 correlation of the compressor power and capacity. 11 If nobody has more -- 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I just wanted to add 13 that going all the way back to mid-March, with 14 smaller group out in Berkeley, that we were using the 15 correlations coupled with the building load data, the 16 8,760, to basically determine the power for each hour 17 based upon the ambient temperature in that hour, just 18 as a reminder to everyone why these correlations are 19 necessary. Okay. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: So why don't we go back 21 to the presentation here. 22 I think that more or less covers what we

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 did on the energy side of the engineering analysis 2 for the air-conditioners. James will be talking 3 later about the costs. 4 Moving on to the curb adapter 5 discussion, we've been calling these conversion 6 curbs. I guess in the industry they call them curb 7 adapters. I'm kind of using them interchangeably 8 here in the presentation. 9 We had discussions with Micrometl and 10 Thybar, obtaining information regarding pressure 11 drops, costs, magnitude of the existing market. 12 Regarding pressure drop, information was 13 a little bit different from the two vendors. One 14 indicated that the pressure was really very low .05 15 inches water column. For a small, something like .1; 16 for a large, .2. I think it was supposed to be for 17 very large. Sorry about that. I think that's an 18 error there. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that was very large. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then for vendor B, 21 I received like a three-quarter-inch thick booklet of 22 submittal drawings of all these curb adapters for

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 units of a particular brand made by a particular 2 manufacturer, and these were all the curb adapters 3 that could be used with all the different products of 4 that brand where their existing units would have been 5 anybody's. 6 And so there was a lot of information 7 there, and I didn't digest all of the cross8 manufacturer conversion curbs, but for all of the 9 conversion curbs which were same manufacturer to same 10 manufacturer, I looked at the commercial size units 11 and averaged all the instances of pressure drop that 12 were in that booklet, and the average was.26 for that 13 set of instances reported pressure drop. 14 It did go from the .1 up to the .7 15 within that set of data, but the average was .26, and 16 if I included 2,000 CFM units, which I'm assuming may 17 or may not be commercial size, they would probably be 18 residential size, this .26 would drop down to .25 so 19 not a whole lot different. 20 So that's what I got, and certainly, we 21 could dig more into that booklet, but I would think 22 manufacturer to manufacturer is probably the most

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 relevant thing to look at here in terms of the 2 rulemaking, because those cross manufacturer across 3 brand conversion curbs would presumably be sold and 4 used today in order to allow a building owner to 5 switch brands, if they wanted. 6 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. 7 So let me see if I understand. What 8 you're saying is you didn't look at the conversions 9 as going from a Trane model to a Carrier model or 10 brand X to brand Y. You only looked at the ones that 11 are going, a curb adapter for a Trane model to a 12 Trane model and a Carrier model to a Carrier model, 13 where they have to adjust the sizes and that's the 14 number that you looked at for the pressure drop curb; 15 is that correct? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Almost. I only had 17 this booklet for one brand, so if the new unit was of 18 this one brand. 19 MR. STARR: Actually, that was one of 20 the points I was going to make, a lot of times is 21 that when you're switching, when you're going from 22 one unit to a new version of that old unit, you're

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 not going to have as much problem getting your curb 2 adapted because they have the drops in a similar 3 spot, although they may be a little bit, if the unit 4 is bigger, you're going to have to adjust a little 5 bit to make it fit. 6 But it wouldn't be as bad as switching 7 where the return and supply are absolutely opposite 8 direction and all of a sudden, you have to switch 9 around where those drops are. That's a much bigger 10 pressure drop and much more dramatic conversion curb. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: You might have, maybe 12 you have a point. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. 14 So maybe put differently, were there any 15 of those conversion curbs for a manufacture from that 16 manufacturer where he went from like a portrait to a 17 landscape scenario? 18 Louis just indicated where they're 19 rotated 180 degrees or 90 degrees. Were all of them 20 just relative size adjustments in similar locations 21 in that booklet, the three- or four-quarter inch 22 booklet?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I didn't look 2 distinctly, okay, which of these look like the ducts 3 are in different positions versus just different size 4 ducts? 5 You know, I just said, Okay. Well, let 6 me just look at all the data that could be assembled 7 that I have, which is same manufacturer. 8 MR. STARR: So this is a question 9 actually more for Rusty. 10 Would you expect to see that in your own 11 unit? If you switched from a Goodman unit to another 12 one, would you be switching from portrait to 13 landscape with your drops? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I can. Yes. 15 MR. THARP: Actually, one of the other 16 manufacturers would be better to ask. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Jill Hootman from 18 Trane. 19 Actually, we have old stock out there 20 that is this direction (indicating) and newer stock 21 that is this direction (indicating). 22 MR. STARR: So that would be the same

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 issue you'd have with any EL level, though, right? I 2 mean, in other words, your new units, even though the 3 more efficient one is still going to have the same 4 kind of drop, so you'd be switching from your 5 portrait to landscape in your base model, as well as 6 your EL-5 model. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 8 MR. DeLASKI: This is Andrew deLaski. 9 I think I raised this point in our last 10 meeting, that is, when you have a curb adjustment in 11 the base case and are we capturing that? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we'll get that. 13 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. There's some 14 baseline. I think we raised that. I addressed it. 15 MR. BANTLE: Mark? 16 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with 17 SMACCNA. 18 My question is, for the pressure losses 19 that are shown, I'm kind of curious how they're 20 measured. And the reason I ask is, they're 21 essentially, a duct fitting is what these curb 22 adapters are. A lot of them are just enlargers or

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 reducers, if they don't change 180 degrees. 2 If I take an enlarger or a reducer and 3 test it the way fittings are tested, much like fans 4 are tested, and in an ideal situation, I can get very 5 low losses, and those numbers do make more sense. 6 I wouldn't argue that those numbers are 7 wrong, based on the pressure drop through that 8 particular fitting. 9 But when we -- if I took an elbow, as an 10 example, and tested an elbow, a very efficient elbow, 11 I could get a very low pressure drop. 12 If I stick that elbow right on the 13 outlet of a fan, that changes things because of the 14 system fit. 15 So where this is located, what I'm not 16 100 percent comfortable with is, are those numbers 17 directly applicable to the effect of using a curb on 18 the system is or isn't? 19 I would tend to say it would be a little 20 higher, but I would also argue that in some cases, it 21 could actually lower, depending upon how -- sometimes 22 having the distance, you know, these create a little

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 bit more distance, actually benefits the air flow. 2 So it can kind of go either way. 3 But I was just curious what the -- I 4 have a feeling that these are tested as in like they 5 pulled these as an individual item, probably put some 6 length of duct on the inlet-outlet side, much like 7 how we would test fittings. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: You bring up an 9 excellent point and a very good question. This is a 10 question that I brought to the people that I was 11 talking to. 12 I have a little bit of experience trying 13 to measure something like this, and my experience is, 14 it's not easy to measure it to figure out what's 15 really going on. 16 And the people that I talked to didn't 17 themselves know exactly how the measurement was made. 18 However, one of the vendors, this vendor B, said that 19 these calculations that are in this booklet, it's all 20 analytically calculated. So they have a computer 21 program that actually does the calculation, and he 22 also said that they have done spot checks, actual

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 measurements. 2 And so I wasn't talking to the engineers 3 that made the measurements, but he says they do have 4 engineers that and that, you know, they know how to 5 make these measurements and that they have tested the 6 model and that they feel it's accurate. 7 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. 8 One thing I would point out is, like in 9 the example I drew up there, I actually drew 10 something that's something you shouldn't do in the 11 way of design. 12 But as you see, in the existing unit 13 that was there, it was done wrong, in other words, 14 that system effect from how that's designed, but you 15 also have that same system effect when you going to 16 the new ones. 17 But to me, it's sort of, if you started 18 out probably with a bad design, you're also -- it 19 sort of negates it in the fact that the original case 20 was a bad design. When you put your curb adapter 21 one, you're matching up to one that was the same 22 field conditions that you started with.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 So to me it really is just a pressure 2 sure drop, like you've done about the adaptor itself. 3 That's the main item. You can't really think about 4 the ducts that are connected to and that system 5 effects, because you can't isolate the variable, is 6 the problem. 7 And so to some extent, I think the 8 approach for what you're doing makes a lot of sense 9 to me. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: If there are no 11 questions, moving on, cost information for the two 12 vendors was comparable. I didn't get all that much 13 cost information, so comparable at a top level. 14 The other aspect of this was magnitude 15 of the existing market. One of the vendors hazarded 16 an estimate of what he thought the U.S. market is 17 currently for these products and estimated about 18 100,000 a year, which was higher than I would have 19 thought. 20 And so I didn't get in touch with all 21 these other vendors, but this was just one Google 22 search, curb adapter, and all these vendors pop up.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 So in testing the theory about the 2 100,000 unit market, it's reasonable to believe that 3 if we have all these vendors -- and if you look at 4 their web sites, they do look like reputable vendors. 5 They have multiple locations -- that it is a 6 substantial existing market. That's the impression I 7 get. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 9 You have two of the largest ones there. 10 KCC would probably be the third. That's just my 11 opinion as far as sales. 12 MFR. CYMBALSKY: If you look versus the 13 shipments of the units, it seems like a pretty high 14 percentage, if I'm reading the graphs right. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. This is leading 16 to some of the other slides that we had. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: That sounds right to 18 everybody? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think partly, it 20 would include those that are in the 3- to 5-ton 21 range. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh. Okay. 2 MR. STARR: The other thing is those, so 3 that is people changing from model Y to model X. The 4 curb adaptors, that's what they are used for 5 primarily, now, right? 6 MR. WHITWELL: Well, also going from, as 7 you go up in efficiency. If you look at our product 8 line, as you go up in efficiency, there's quite often 9 a chassis jump, so that's going to reduce it -- 10 MR. DeLASKI: Intuitively, it does make 11 -- it's not impossible to believe, right? You've 12 got a lot of older products, as Jill said, that are 13 out there in stock. You had a new standard in 2010. 14 You had new ASHRAE levels. There's been change in 15 the market. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the new standard in 17 2010, plus there's new higher efficiency product that 18 has come out since then, and so those -- 19 MR. DeLASKI: So if you had a -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: -- customers that select 21 those -- 22 MR. DeLASKI: -- installed in 1990,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 1995 -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- they're going to ask 3 to use the -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: In 1990-1995, you had a 5 completely different landscape of manufacturers. We 6 had consolidation, and there have been lines that 7 have dropped out. 8 So there are, when you go to replace, 9 there's nobody -- they can't do a life-for-life 10 replacement any longer. Can you go find a Singer 11 manufacturer anymore? There's Singer still out 12 there. 13 MR. HUNT: A sewing machine. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Not the suing machine. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So these are in the 16 baseline. So the point here, I think, is the cost 17 isn't both the baseline and the standards case, 18 right? So the Delta is not going from zero to 19 100,000. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. We'll get into 21 the discussion later, but ultimately, the debate is: 22 How many are in the baseline? And then, you know,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 the long story short is, we did a calculation and we 2 said, Okay. Well, let's say 15,000 of these 100,000 3 are the residential size, so maybe that's not the 4 right number. So you get 85,000. We divided by all 5 the shipments of the commercials and we get about 31 6 percent. 7 And certainly, the input to that 8 calculation is subject to, if we can get better data 9 and it's important to the outcome of the analyses, 10 then certainly, we could feed in that better data, if 11 it exists. 12 MR. WHITWELL: John just -- this is Bob 13 Whitwell from Carrier. 14 So for ours, as the baseline equipment, 15 the baseline would still fit on the old size, at 16 least going back to 2000 or earlier. I don't know 17 how far back it would go, but it may not be the case 18 for all of them. 19 And plus, if we're replacing, if our 20 unit is replacing a competitor's, you would have a 21 curb there, probably. 22 So yeah, there are going to be some in

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 the baseline, no question about it. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We do have some curb 3 appeal. (Laughter.) I knew someone would set me up. 4 MR. DeLASKI: No feeling these curbs. 5 MR. WHITWELL: You've been waiting two 6 weeks for that one? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. No. I just thought 8 of it this morning, really. It's a new one. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: We kind of did more 10 work on the equipment size analysis to support the 11 understanding of: How many of these units will 12 potentially require a curb as a result of efficiency 13 standards at different levels? 14 And so for the small class, last time we 15 presented size information for the 7 and a half ton 16 capacity. We've added 6-ton nominal, 8 and a half 17 and 10, and for the large, we added the 12 and a half 18 to 17 and a half and 20. 19 And then for each of these, we looked at 20 four major manufacturers that span the efficiency 21 range reasonably well and which efficiency level for 22 those existing designs would you have to bump up in

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 size, i.e., require a curb adapter in order to set on 2 the replacement curb or replace the unit set on the 3 existing curb. 4 So one of the issues here was: What are 5 the shipments in each of these sizes? As part of the 6 shipment analysis, LBNL looked at shipments for the 7 entire class, the entire small class, and the entire 8 large class. 9 And so for the purposes of our little 10 analysis, we came up with a reasonable distribution 11 of, this is just for the small and large classes that 12 we have conducted this analysis thus far and so I 13 basically came up with a distribution for those two 14 classes of shipments, and when we get the shipment 15 data, presumably, we can correct this a little bit 16 and make sure we have the right input as far as that 17 goes into this analysis. 18 This slide talks about, given the size 19 data, what EL did we select as the EL that would 20 require an adaptor curb? 21 So we considered size increases at EL-2 22 or higher, and certainly, that's subject to some

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 review. Maybe you want us to consider a size 2 increase from baseline to EL-1. 3 So if you have, if a manufacturer has 4 two models, one at a lower efficiency level and one 5 at the next higher efficiency level that is larger in 6 size, then we say, Okay. Aha. At that higher of 7 those two efficiency levels, that's where you start 8 to require a curb adapter. 9 The next two bullets talk about, okay, 10 well, what if there's a gap in there, the 11 manufacturers goes from, say, EL-1 to EL-3? What 12 happens at EL-2? 13 Well, we said, Okay. Well, let's say if 14 there's, if you go from EL-1 to EL-3, if there are 15 one or two efficiency levels in between for which the 16 manufacturer has no product, we just took the lowest 17 of those non-represented intermediate efficiency 18 levels as the size-increasing efficiency level. 19 If there was as much as three 20 intermediate non-represented efficiency levels, we 21 took the median. 22 So, for instance, if you go -- we have

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 the two and a halfs here, so if you go from 1 to 3 2 and a half, that has three levels in between, we 3 would have said, okay. You jump up at 2 and a half. 4 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 5 So essentially, you're trying to take a 6 class of where you get a change in the model size 7 such that you have to bump up into a different casing 8 size and you're trying to pick the level that's the 9 median of that different level; is that what you're 10 trying to do? 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Maybe it makes sense 12 just to look at the charts here, and this kind of 13 explains it. So this little table here, efficiency 14 level for curb adapters for those -- these are the 15 different manufacturers here -- is really where the 16 action is. 17 So for manufacturer A, we have a unit at 18 a little bit higher than 13 and we have a unit at 19 20.8 or something like that. They're the same size. 20 Well, I'm saying the jump is at EL-5 because EL-5 is 21 higher than the 20.8. 22 MR. STARR: You know, one thing, and I'm

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 sure you're aware of this, using the micro channel 2 coil is one of the advantages. It keeps your curb 3 size differently, you're not necessarily -- it 4 depends on what technology they use in order to keep 5 from switching their size of the coil. So I don't 6 know if it necessarily would be a direct 7 relationship. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we include micro 9 channel in all these points here, and so you see that 10 MCX with the X? This is the 6-ton size. It's hard 11 to see, but the purple diamond, the lowest purple 12 diamond has MCX here. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. 14 Remember, Louis, micro channel, micro 15 channel manufacturers, very succinct aspect ratios. 16 Their ovens, the way they make them, everything is 17 very succinct. So you're locked into certain sizes. 18 It doesn't always equate to and it's a 19 very unfair representation of micro channel to say 20 that you're just going to automatically get into a 21 smaller cabinet. 22 They're based on the automobile

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 manufacturers, and HVAC is not high enough to ever 2 make their changes in their ovens. Their ovens are 3 very, very expensive, millions of dollars, and so it 4 just isn't going to, it's not going to go there. 5 And I'm likely one of the largest users 6 of them right now, and I can't move -- 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with 8 Allied, and I would agree with Jill. It depends on 9 what tube type, what pit (sic) surface that you're 10 starting from whether you can make a micro channel 11 smaller, or it could even be bigger. It just depends 12 on what you're using as your base. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So this is the 6-ton 14 size capacity, so for manufacturer B, manufacturer B 15 for this size, this capacity, tops out at about 13 16 and a half. 17 So going to EL-2, we assumed that maybe 18 they could have made something the same size, but we 19 don't know, we don't have the evidence, so we say 20 EL-2 for that manufacturer at this capacity level. 21 And so we've gone systematically for 22 each of the classes through the four nominal

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 capacities, to select these efficiency levels at 2 which we would grow. 3 And you can review this and comment on 4 whether you think we've picked the right ELs for 5 growth. 6 Here's the 7 and a half ton. Now, here, 7 for example, look at manufacturer A. We have EL-3 8 chosen. You see the smaller size, about 36 and a 9 half, I guess, base area, square footage, is at 14, 10 and so that's at EL-2. 11 Then the next one higher at roughly 50 12 square-foot base size is at, say, 20 and a half or 13 something like that, so that's an EL-4. 14 So we're going from EL-2 to EL-4. The 15 median of the non-representative, non-represented 16 intermediate ELs is 3 here. So we don't really know 17 for sure, but we think that once you step that far 18 out, that maybe that is a reasonable assumption, 19 subject to debate. 20 For manufacturer B here, here is where 21 we get into one of the bullets that I mentioned. 22 There is, manufacture B has a small unit at 32, but

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 we're starting at EL-2, assuming that at this point, 2 not considering curb adaptor requirement EL-1. 3 But then otherwise, manufacturer B goes 4 all the way up to the top, you know, all the way to 5 Maxtech, and so greater than Max, even at that EL-5, 6 this manufacturer's unit in the analysis wouldn't 7 have required a curb adaptor. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: What were your steps, 6, 7 9 and a half, what else? 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: We did 8 and half and 11 10. 12 MR. STARR: I have kind of just a 13 question. In the manufacturer that didn't its curb 14 or didn't change their curb size, how did they do 15 that? 16 I mean, what was -- it seems like at 17 some point you would need to change it. Are they 18 just using really big curbs to start with, or what is 19 your kind of assessment of it? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, you can see that 21 manufacture B in the low levels is far and away the 22 largest chassis.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 And then you can follow some of this as 2 you go up and down the sizes as to, you know in some 3 of these situations, like if I look at manufacturer 4 A, we have a 37-square-foot base area at 7 and a half 5 ton, at 8 and a half ton, at 10 ton, and also for 12 6 and a half ton baseline, but then 12 and a half ton 7 higher efficiency levels grow. 8 So this was essentially our attempt to 9 try to get a better understanding of, how could the 10 analysis be a little bit more sophisticated about 11 what the assumption is about when a curb adaptor 12 would be required, thus, incurring the pressure drop 13 and also the cost associated with it? 14 And I realize there's a lot of 15 information here to look at. This is something that 16 potentially, you could look at at your leisure and 17 provide commentary maybe later in the afternoon or 18 tomorrow or something like that. 19 But then essentially what we did was we 20 have four manufacturers here, and we're assuming that 21 these four manufacturers would represent the 22 capabilities of the industry for the rest of the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 industry. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, that's up to 2 debate. 3 But we also don't know the market shares 4 very well of these manufacturers, and for the 5 purposes of the analysis thus far, we've assumed 6 equal market shares for the four. 7 I talked about the distribution of the 8 different capacities, the assumption that we made, 9 the smaller capacities having a higher sales, and 10 then we basically cranked that data and came up then 11 with this distribution of, if you choose a given 12 efficiency level, how many of the units would be 13 required or would be installed with a curb adapter? 14 And so we have the 31 percent at the low 15 levels, and then that sort of grows through the 16 distribution. 17 At the highest level, we're assuming 20 18 percent new construction, so those wouldn't require a 19 curb adapter, and then you see there's a little bit 20 of a gap between the top of the bar at EL-5 and 80, 21 and that represents that one unit where they went, 22 one manufacturer, where they went all the way to the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 max without the size increasing. 2 So we did this with the small class. We 3 also did it with the large class, obviously, larger 4 sizes here. And for this large class, you can see 5 the growth. You can see my unit base area scale goes 6 up to 190, but the 12 and a half ton are all down at 7 the low end. But then you kind of move up the scale 8 as you go up. 9 MR. DeLASKI: I have a question. Why 10 don't you go back to slide 30. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Andrew. 12 MR. DeLASKI: I'm sorry. My slides are 13 numbered differently. I guess it's the one with the 14 bar charts. 15 So is this telling me that since that 16 EL-0, you have 30 percent small curb adapter. Is 17 that your baseline? 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's the base case 19 scenario. 20 MR. DeLASKI: Is the 1 in 3, call it the 21 curb adaptor? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. Yeah.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 1 in 3 would be roughly using a curb adapter 2 currently. 3 MR. STARR: The main thought, does that 4 -- so your new construction, you never need a curb 5 adapter, right, a new building? 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 7 MR. STARR: So that is capturing -- 8 Louis Starr -- that is capturing, this bar chart, 9 includes that part of new construction and first 10 replacement? 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. 12 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. I just 13 want to do a process check to make sure our interest 14 is at its highest peak. We could take a lunch break. 15 I just wanted to check. How long do you think you 16 have? 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, for the energy 18 use part of things, I think I could be done fairly 19 soon. Then James would have costs to talk about. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: So maybe we could end at 21 12:30 and take a lunch break, come back at 1:30? 22 Would that -- so let's go until 12:30.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 But I, you all have been very attentive 2 and I want to make sure we keep that stamina up. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So why don't we just go 4 until you're done with your piece before we go to 5 costs? Will you be done before 12:30? 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's possible we'll 7 both be done by 12:30, if everybody is okay with -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sounds ambitious. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't have that much 10 more myself. 11 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 12 Carrier. 13 I think this is a pretty thorough 14 analysis. I thank you for the competitive research. 15 But I think that -- I mean, it seems reasonable to 16 me. I mean, it seems like a reasonable and thorough 17 analysis. 18 I can't, I don't have anything that 19 would say that it's anything different than that. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: Meg? 21 MS. WALTNER: Yes. Meg Waltner from 22 NRDC.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 As I look at this data, one of the 2 things that stands out first is that manufacturers 3 want to stick in the same size for as long as they 4 can. That seems clear. 5 And then you look at the small equipment 6 sizes, there does seem to be some correlation that 7 the highest efficiency products do tend to be in the 8 larger sizes. 9 And then in the large equipment size 10 category, that second trend doesn't seem to hold up 11 as well. There seems to be, A, more grouping sort of 12 in the same -- the sizes are closer together between 13 the different manufacturers and there doesn't seem to 14 be as much correlation necessarily between the high 15 IEER levels and the largest equipment sizes. 16 I'm wondering if that observation, does 17 that seem correct to the manufacturers? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell. 19 So Meg, you're looking at the 12 and a 20 half and 15-ton, for example. 21 MS. WALTNER: Yes, and up to 17 and a 22 half and 20-ton. For instance, on the 20-ton unit,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 the manufacturer D uses 170-square-foot base, but 2 that's -- the high IEERs are down in the 70 to 90 3 base. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, so if we 5 start, I mean, the 12 and a half ton, to me is 6 definitely shows showing that trend, right? With the 7 exception, I mean, manufacture D's unit starts out 8 larger, right? 9 But if you look at the others, as you 10 can up in efficiency, there is a jump in chassis 11 size, it looks like, right? 12 The 15-ton, there's a grouping. There 13 is a grouping for sure, but even if you look outside 14 that grouping as the efficiency IEER goes up, the 15 chassis unit base area is growing. 16 17 and a half ton is a little bit more 17 grouped. There are some cases, though, of where the, 18 as efficiency goes up, the units get larger. 19 MS. WALTNER: Yes, for manufacturer A. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 20-ton, 20-ton is, 21 you're starting to get into an area where there are 22 other things that are driving the size of the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 equipment, as well, such as options. You know, 2 there's more options on some product than others. So 3 that could be -- for example, manufacturer D could be 4 you've got a unit that's light a like commercial down 5 in one size and then up. The larger one, could be 6 more of an applied rooftop type product. 7 So, you know, again, looking at 8 different -- there's different things to say, pick 9 out, as you look at the different sizes. 10 MS. WALTNER: Right. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Also, it could be that 12 the 20-ton, the 20-ton in general could be a small 13 capacity size throughout the industry, could need a 14 larger cabinet. And in that case, you're going to 15 have room to go up more in efficiency without jumping 16 to another size. 17 MS. WALTNER: Thank you. That makes 18 sense. 19 And I guess the reason I asked that 20 question is, looking at the two different bar charts, 21 they look -- I can't tell -- they look almost the 22 same to me. Maybe there are differences between the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 large and small bar charts on our 35 and 30. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: It is different data. 3 They're not the same set of data. 4 MS. WALTNER: Very similar. But I guess 5 I would have expected sort of those differences in 6 trends to affect the bar charts more, but that's just 7 sort of my initial reaction to it. It's helpful to 8 have two thoughts. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I was looking more 10 at the dots than the bar charts. 11 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is David, Allied. 12 I think as you're comparing those drafts 13 from the small to the large, your X axis changes, the 14 scaling, it changes quite a bit. So what looks 15 tightly grouped for the large, you know, your scale 16 is completely different, so it's not quite as tight 17 as it appears there. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, on the dots. On the 19 dots. Yes. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Another point in 21 deciding when the curb adapter is required, we're 22 just looking for any increase, even if it's a small

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 increase. 2 And the other thing I want to point out 3 is that these are all actual unit base areas. 4 They're not the area of the curb opening. 5 MR. WHITWELL: But there is a 6 correlation. They're highly correlated. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, of course, 8 there's a correlation, yes. But just, you know, if 9 you look at your curb area and it's not that, then 10 it's what? 11 MR. STARR: This is Louis. 12 Just one last thing. I guess it kind of 13 maybe correlates, but if you look at your conversion 14 curb, let's say EL-5, basically, your pretty much 15 assumption is you always need a conversion curb, 16 because 20 percent of the sales are new equipment. 17 Or if 80 percent are replacement, that 18 means 20 percent is new, so that's of says any time 19 you're in EL-3, you know, certainly 5, you 20 definitely, you're going to be putting on a curb 21 adapter, and I should step down. 22 That's sort of, you know, EL-4, you're

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 -- I mean, you think of 80 percent as being your 2 baseline. It's really the Delta between the bar 3 charts there of how many models don't need it as you 4 step down in models. 5 So if you look at 2.5, it looks like 30 6 percent of the time you really need it, and then as 7 you get up higher, it becomes more and more -- 30 8 percent of the time you don't need it. I guess 70 9 percent of the time you do, and once you get to 2.5, 10 you pretty much always need a rough curb, and I guess 11 that seems logical to you in terms of what you're 12 seeing in the market? 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I'm just going by 14

-- 15 MR. STARR: The numbers. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the dimensions that 17 we can get for these units and showing that -- you 18 know, you've heard the manufacturers say, you know, 19 you get to an efficiency level and it gets really 20 large, and you look at the data and, well, it does 21 get larger. So that's what's showing. 22 MR. STARR: Can you match up your

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 108 1 conversion curb sales with equipment sales, just 2 present values? Or is there not really a way to do 3 that? 4 In other words, when you see they're 5 shipping 100,000 units, are you shipping the relative 6 percentage knowing that right now, the distribution 7 in the market is probably 01 and 2 EL levels? 8 You know, is that kind of the numbers of 9 curbs you're shipping out kind of corresponding with 10 the number of units that are selling, or is that 11 maybe a little too sophisticated to do? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: We have no idea of what 13 the distribution is of curbs. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Those are from different 15 companies. We don't make them. He just said, Thybar 16 and Micrometyl make them. We're not members of AHRI. 17 We're not even issued that data. 18 MR. STARR: Well, no, but they would 19 know how much they're selling, How many, how many -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand but they're 21 not going to -- 22 MR. STARR: Not reporting that

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 109 1 information. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: No. And they're not 3 individually going to report it, because it would 4 expose their numbers. 5 MR. WHITWELL: But Navigant did get some 6 indication from at least one of the suppliers on what 7 they thought the market size was, for what, for what 8 that's worth. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: And the other one asked 10 said, Ask the manufacturers. (Laughter.) 11 Any more on this part of the analysis? 12 Certainly, we can come back to this if you have some 13 input on what ELs we selected. 14 Hopefully, we'll get shipment data that 15 we can use to refine this, or if anybody has any 16 other information associated with inputs, certainly, 17 we can refine that. 18 So this slide we more or less covered in 19 the discussion on the detail of the units, basically 20 saying how we dealt with the VAV in our analysis. 21 For variable speed or otherwise 22 modulating compressor units, we did the IEER

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 110 1 calculation based on close match of the load levels 2 with the same discharge temperature as for 100 3 percent load. That's strictly consistent with the 4 test procedure. 5 For staged compressors, we essentially 6 did the same thing, although we didn't have the 7 flexibility to get really close to the desired load 8 points. We basically had to do the calculation for 9 those particular staged capacity levels. 10 However, for part load, we didn't allow 11 air flow less than 20 percent of the full load air 12 flow. So for at least one of these calculations the 13 discharge temperature would have been higher than 14 full load discharge temperature. 15 Then the performance correlations for VS 16 compressors was basically four stages, full target 17 loads, performance correlations for the staged 18 compressors was based on -- I mean, the stages that 19 were available, you know, 2 through 5, depending on 20 how many there were. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 22 So discharge number, you're talking

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 111 1 about the supply air temperature that's supplying the 2 temperature to the space? 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. 4 MR. WILKENFELD: Okay. Not compressor 5 discharge. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Exactly. Yes. 7 And at that point we move on to costs, 8 and James will be explaining that. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Hi. Again, I'm James 10 Battaglia I'm from Navigant. 11 So on the cost side, for 7 and a half 12 and 15-ton, as I mentioned in our last meeting, our 13 approach was to evaluate each manufacturer 14 individually and then average the results. 15 For 7 and a half tons, we didn't have 16 any update since the last presentation, and for 15 17 tons, we did make an adjustment to the Maxtech 18 efficiency level, the controls costs. We were double 19 counting a control board, so that has been adjusted 20 to be lower than what it was presented previously. 21 For 30 tons, because, as we discussed 22 last time, because of the limited number of models,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 112 1 what we're doing now is we're considering the 2 incremental MPCs across all manufacturers using a 3 single cabinet platform, so what Bob was talking 4 about, the applied type of product. 5 We did compare it to the smaller cabinet 6 products, and the costs, incremental costs for the 7 levels that we did have enough data, were comparable. 8 So again, here are the costs. We 9 presented these last time. I don't know if there is 10 any comments on these. (No response.) 11 MR. BATTAGLIA: And for 15 tons, again, 12 the only one that changed was the Maxtech level. 13 So here is the new cost curves for 30 14 tons, again, with the two different paths. Baseline 15 through EL-2.5 is CAV for path 1 and then through 16 Maxtech is VAV and then for path 2 is VAV for all 17 efficiency levels above the baseline. 18 So you can see for path 2, we do have a 19 higher incremental cost, and that's for the VAV. 20 Again, this is just the same data in 21 table form, also showing the shipping weights that 22 filter into the downstream.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 113 1 One thing to point out here, again, 2 because we're doing our shipping costs on a volume 3 approach, we didn't show an increase in shipping 4 costs. Basically, you wouldn't reduce the number of 5 units that you could fit on a trailer based on the 6 units that we analyzed. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Say that again, James. 8 I'm not following. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: For the shipping costs, 10 again, as I mentioned last time, we calculated the -- 11 our shipping costs are based on the number of units 12 that you can fit into a trailer. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes? 14 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for baseline to 15 Maxtech, what we did was we looked at the cabinet 16 sizes and assessed how many units you could fit on a 17 flatbed. And from baseline to Maxtech, we didn't 18 show -- there was an increase in cabinet size, but it 19 didn't trigger that drop in the number of units that 20 you could fit. 21 Again, we certainly welcome feedback. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 114 1 Carrier. 2 So I don't know. I would have to think 3 about that, but 30-ton, maybe not. But certainly, as 4 you get up to 60-ton, you know, you could be seeing 5 more. 6 So I mean, that's one of the issues with 7 picking one model to represent a range from 20 to 63 8 tons. 9 MR. SACHS: James, this is Harvey Sachs. 10 I guess the thing that strikes me, I'm 11 sure there's a simple technical reason. I have just 12 haven't seen it. In every case, EL-1 through 2.5, 13 the VAV is way significantly less than the CAVs. 14 MR. BATTAGLIA: That is because for the 15 CAV, you're increasing your heat exchanger sizes, 16 whereas VAV, you're just doing the control change. 17 So it's not, you're not like, you're not increasing 18 heat exchanger size and adding weight in that manner 19 to get to your higher efficiency level. 20 Does that make sense? 21 MR. SACHS: Okay. Okay. Thank you. 22 So it's that trade-off between --

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 115 1 MR. BATTAGLIA: The controls with the 2 VAV. 3 MR. SACHS: It's just a surprisingly 4 large difference. Thank you. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: So James, back on the 6 shipping costs, not on 30 tons per se but back on our 7 7 and a half and 15, you were doing the same thing, 8 right? 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: How many could be fit on 11 a -- so as you went up in the EL levels, did you ever 12 consider that they could be stacked, and if so, as 13 they got bigger, they cannot be stacked? 14 MR. BATTAGLIA: We were not considering 15 stacking. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 17 MR. BATTAGLIA: Right. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a safer way to go. 19 MR. SACHS: Jill, This is Harvey. 20 On that question, I do notice a lot of 21 big units being shipped on flatbeds. What's the 22 smallest thing that gets shipped open on flatbeds?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 116 1 Does that cut over 20 tons or 40 tons? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no. No. No. No. 3 Almost all of these are 80 to 90 percent, all the way 4 down to 7 and a half tons on flat beds. 7 and a half 5 ton, dragging it out of an enclosed trailer is 6 starting to get hard. 7 But you will have sometimes consolidated 8 shipments, so you can even have 3, 5, 7 and a half 9 all consolidated on one shipment because it's all 10 going to one job, that kind of stuff. 11 So your 3 and 5 tons, which can be in an 12 enclosed van, would likely also be on these flatbeds 13 when they're consolidated. 14 But I understand what you mean. They're 15 just saying the universe of, it's all 7 and a half 16 tons and the bigger units and that kind of stuff. 17 MR. SACHS: Very helpful. Thank you. 18 MR. BATTAGLIA: Sorry. I was using the 19 term trailer, but we did assume flatbeds for these. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: Any more questions? 21 (No response.) 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, then I want to thank

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 117 1 you for your presentation and let's adjourn and come 2 at lunch, for lunch, finishing lunch, come back at 3 1:30, okay? 4 Thank you. We're off the record now. 5 (Thereupon, at 12:24 p.m., the luncheon 6 recess was taken.) 7 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 8 1:35 p.m. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Okay, everybody, 10 we're back on the clock. Bob? Mick? We're back. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, hi. 12 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi. 13 I hope we all had a good lunch break. 14 Why don't you -- this is Eileen Hoffman. 15 Just to summarize, tomorrow, we're going 16 to end it by 5:00 today, but tomorrow it's at 8:00 17 a.m. in 950 L'Enfant Plaza, and it will be on the 7th 18 floor, but I believe you have to check in there, 19 right? 20 Is that correct, John? 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Just bring your 22 driver's license.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 118 1 MS. HOFFMAN: Bring by your driver's 2 license. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's no advanced 4 check-in like you have here, so you don't have to 5 sign a piece of paper and all that. Go through a 6 metal detector. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Property badge or not? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do we have to do the 10 property badge thing? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think you have 12 to do the, the property thing there. So your 13 computer just goes through the conveyor belt. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: And our hours are going to 15 be from 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., so you can have a 16 get-away day, if you need it. Okay? 17 MR. WHITWELL: So sorry. So what's the 18 room number? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's 950 L'Enfant 20 Plaza, 7th floor. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: It's the 7th floor 22 conference room.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 119 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: 7140, I believe, is the 2 number, but that doesn't matter. 3 MR. WHITWELL: John, when we were there 4 before, when we'd been there before, we had to call 5 and have someone come and escort us. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll be down. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 8 MR. DeLASKI: Eileen, before we start it 9 again, maybe we could go back on the record, because 10 I've got a couple of questions. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. Do you want us off 12 the record? 13 MR. DeLASKI: No. It can be on the 14 record. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. On the record. Sure. 16 MR. DeLASKI: There are two things I 17 wanted to raise. One is -- 18 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Andrew. 19 MR. DeLASKI: -- I wanted to raise, I 20 think we had hoped in our overall agenda to talk 21 about shipments at this meeting. I guess the 22 question to the Department is, are we going to get

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 120 1 to, are we ready on shipments, the sooner we get to 2 that, so we're ready. So I think the agenda called 3 for us, our overall agenda called for us to, 5-21, 4 present preliminary shipment and MIA remittance. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: And what was the second? 6 MR. DeLASKI: MIA is manufacture impact 7 analysis. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: No MIA today. 9 MR. DeLASKI: Or tomorrow? 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Or tomorrow. It's 11 just, we've only gotten our substantive shipments. 12 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. I wanted to check 13 in on that. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Shipments today or 15 tomorrow? Shipments ready for today and MIA -- 16 MR. DeLASKI: Looking for MIA from 17 shipments, to some degree. 18 And my second question was, 19 unfortunately, I had to step out this morning when 20 Eric spoke about the legal situation. 21 I know we have nothing new, I guess is 22 what the report was, from him since we met last week.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 121 1 It's just been a week. 2 I just want to make a couple of comments 3 on that. One is that Dave and I were just talking 4 about it would be really be helpful for us, I think, 5 to be thinking about, even though we're not getting 6 to the point of negotiating levels and dates yet. To 7 know what the realm of possibilities are, I think, 8 would help us all in terms of being able to think. 9 Because we're not going to go walk in 10 this room in two weeks and just work it all out if we 11 haven't worked it out. You know, people have bosses 12 they have organizations. They have to be able to 13 work up the chain of command and hopefully not do 14 everything on the cell phone in the hallway here. 15 So I would hope that we can get answers 16 more promptly or promptly, as promptly as possible. 17 And I made, and the other point, and 18 then I will just make a couple of points. I think we 19 have four -- Greg, I don't remember, I had to go out 20 -- we have four legal questions. 21 One was, can we do two metrics? That 22 was the first one. I would just observe that for the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 122 1 central air conditioner rule, DoE did two metrics for 2 residential central air conditioners, an SCEER and an 3 EER standard that was adopted via DoE regulation as a 4 result of an agreement, of a consensus agreement, 5 that was privately negotiated, not part of a public 6 regneg, but privately negotiated between the 7 efficiency advocates, many of whom are at this table, 8 and the manufacturers, many of whom or all of whom 9 are at this table. 10 So it's been done once before through a 11 DoE regulatory process based on a consensus. So 12 that's just a historical fact for two metrics. 13 MS. HOFFMAN: And how long ago was that, 14 that it was negotiated? 15 MR. DeLASKI: That was the final rule 16 issued in 2011 going into to effect this year, takes 17 effect January 1st of this year. 18 And then for terms of two levels, in my 19 recollection, DoE has done that twice in the past. 20 Once, in 2001, a final rule was issued for clothes 21 washers that went into effect in two stages, or two 22 different levels of efficiency took effect on two

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 123 1 different dates. An initial standard took effect in 2 2004, and then a second stage, more stringent than 3 the first, took effect in 2007. 4 And that was issued pursuant as a result 5 or that was a -- it grew out of a joint agreement 6 that also was negotiated privately between various 7 organizations, including my own, and the home 8 appliance manufacturers, represented by the home 9 appliance manufacturers association. 10 And then again in 2010, a similar 11 agreement was entered into on clothes washers, again, 12 clothes washers, as the case turned out to be. That 13 was a two-stage standard that took effect, it's 14 taking effect, in 2014 and 2017. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. Eric has just 16 arrived. 17 MR. DeLASKI: He knows all of this. 18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. 19 MR. DeLASKI: I'm simply pointing it out 20 I think, for the, so that all of us know that this 21 has been done before, and so 2014 and 2017, with the 22 second level being more stringent than the first.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 124 1 MS. HOFFMAN: And you said there were 2 four points. So we have one, the two metrics; two, 3 the two levels. 4 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. So the other one is 5 timeframe. We asked the question, you know, can DoE 6 still be bound to the time, to three-year lead time? 7 And I would simply note in that case 8 that DoE has shown flexibility in leads times in some 9 prior rules. One example I would give is the 10 dishwasher rule that also was a result of a joint 11 recommendation privately negotiated between several 12 organizations, including my own, and the home 13 appliance manufacturers. 14 In that case, we negotiated and 15 recommended a lead time I think of maybe a year and 16 half or something. It was a very, very near-term 17 lead time, shorter than what would have been called 18 for by, indeed, it would have, probably would have 19 gone if DoE has done it through the normal regulatory 20 process. 21 There probably are other examples, but 22 that's one that comes to mine, because it was the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 125 1 manufacturers agreeing to a shorter lead time. 2 And then the last item was, Can DoE 3 develop a prescriptive measure on top of a 4 performance standard? 5 I'm not familiar with any incidents, any 6 examples, of that from the past. I look around the 7 table to Meg, but I don't think -- you know, I'll 8 rack my brain some. 9 But for first three I can think of 10 examples where it's been done in the past. For the 11 last one, I can't not through a DoE regulation. 12 Certainly, Congress has. The residential boiler 13 standard comes to mind. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: They are products that 15 are both in place, but yes, and one of them was set 16 by statute, that DoE set a performance standard and 17 kept the prescriptive standard in place. 18 MR. DeLASKI: Right. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's different than 20 what you're describing. 21 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. The first three I 22 can think of specific examples where DoE has acted

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 126 1 under its regulatory authority. In each case, there 2 was a, there was some sort of recommendation that was 3 broadly represented by stakeholders. 4 In the fourth case, I can't. So I just 5 thought that would be helpful to put those examples 6 on the record. Because I think those opportunities, 7 those are things that will help us to negotiate, and 8 I think it would be helpful for us to have an answer 9 from the Department. 10 MR. McCADDEN: Mike McCadden. 11 Just to add, Andrew, to what you said, 12 on the prescriptive standard, there was one case in 13 boilers, where there was a negotiated standard which 14 included prescriptive standards for boilers that the 15 Department rejected because they did not have the 16 legislative authority for boilers to adopt a 17 prescriptive standard. 18 The question was whether or not it was 19 fixed by legislation, and it was eventually adopted 20 through legislation. 21 MR. DeLASKI: So unfortunately, we have 22 that one negative example on that. On that

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 127 1 particular, I guess we have a negative. It was 2 actually proposed and then rejected in 2007. 3 And ultimately, Congress acted, but I 4 think we're trying to come to things here that the 5 Department can do around this table -- 6 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 7 MR. DeLASKI: -- before we pose the 8 questions. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Does anyone want to add 10 anything on that at this point? 11 (No response.) 12 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 13 We're back to where we were when we 14 adjourned for lunch, and I think it would be Navigant 15 returning, or is the -- oh, you are finished? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: So we'll be hearing from 18

-- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Maybe, before we start, 20 I should go over the commercial framework, these 21 questions. 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So Greg is --

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 128 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: I had some questions to 2 answer -- 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- after lunch about 5 commercial warm air furnaces. 6 So yeah. I'm answering some questions 7 regarding commercial warm air furnaces that folks had 8 this morning. 9 The first one had to do with why the 10 average installed cost decreased relative to what you 11 saw last week, and the reason is that the shipping 12 costs were taken out of the average installed cost 13 here under the assumption that they would be covered 14 in commercial unitary air-conditioners. 15 The only cost, extra shipping cost 16 reflected here, is going from 82 percent thermal 17 efficiency to 92 percent, because that efficiency 18 change requires a change in the size of the unit. 19 Does anyone have any -- 20 MR. DeLASKI: I'll follow up, then, 21 Greg. So then that would be a wash, right, because 22 it would be the same at every efficiency level?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 129 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: From 80 to 82. 2 MR. DeLASKI: From 80 to 82, it's a 3 wash. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: But there's an increase 5 of $43 or $44 in going from 82 to 92. 6 MR. DeLASKI: Which is capturing -- 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Captured a larger size 8 of the unit. 9 MR. DeLASKI: Which would not be 10 captured in the -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: In the CUAC, in the air 12 conditioner side, right. 13 MR. DeLASKI: So the bottom line, 14 whether you've added or not, the increment, the 15 bottom line, will just go right across and be 16 unchanged? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 18 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: The other question was, 20 again, if there's such small LC, life cycle savings, 21 especially relative to what you saw last week, why is 22 the national impact or national energy savings, why

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 130 1 did that increase? 2 And the reason is, again, the increase 3 in the number of years, going from an average life of 4 18 to 26. But what I found out this morning is that, 5 unfortunately, the analysts used incorrect lifetime 6 values to come up with that 26-year value, so it 7 really should be 22.6 years, based upon the 8 information I provided you last week on air 9 conditioner product lifetimes. 10 So taking away those number of years 11 should, will definitely reduce the energy savings 12 number that you see here, and again, the question of 13 whether it's going to be below what you saw last 14 week, where I believe it was around .55 quads. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's .55 at TSL-4 last 16 week? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I believe so. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it will reduce all 19 of them across the board? 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right. 21 MR. TERZIGNI: Quick question. Mark 22 Terzigni with SMACCNA.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 131 1 So that average lifespan, just out of 2 curiosity, is that used in all the scenarios, or do 3 you -- has that varied from scenario, like based on 4 the size of the unit or the smaller unit, shorter 5 lifespan, larger units, larger life span? 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: The lifetime is assumed 7 to stay constant from baseline to the efficiency 8 level. 9 Now, again, as you'll hear in the 10 shipments analysis, as you increase the costs 11 associated with gain to a certain efficiency will 12 definitely have an impact on the repair versus 13 replace decision. That is, you'll get more folks 14 repairing rather than replacing their equipment when 15 it fails. 16 MR. TERZIGNI: Thanks. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: I do have information 18 on sort of where the energy use is concentrated in, 19 in terms of what building types, a couple of them. 20 One was, one is laboratories. They use a lot of, a 21 lot of energy. That was by far the biggest one, so 22 and of course, northern, northern regions of the U.S.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 132 1 use more energy than southern regions. That was to 2 your question, Jill, about, you know, where are these 3 big winners, right? And that's certainly one 4 building type where there's a big winner. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: But I won't disagree on 6 laboratories, but certainly, you're not using this 7 unit to heat those laboratories. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, in 10 practicalities -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- it is not. It's a 13 boiler system, likely, that is probably heating those 14 laboratories. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. What we're 16 trying -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: These aren't enough, 18 likely, to heat those laboratories. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. It represents a 20 small percentage of the overall sample. 21 Again, what we're, where we're getting 22 our information from is the CBECS 2003. Again, it's,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 133 1 it represents a small share. 2 MS. BOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: But it is in there, 4 according to CBECS. 5 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 6 You know, I would just point out, if you 7 think about what that -- those big energy users are 8 kind of the specialized -- it's make-up areas is what 9 you're looking at. I think we talked a little bit 10 about this. It's too complicated at this point to 11 really focus your analysis on looking at those units 12 rather than the bigger classes of equipment. 13 But essentially, there's a lot of 14 opportunity there, because you're bringing 100 15 percent outside air that might be really cold and 16 heating it up to at least room temperature before you 17 dump it into the space. And it presents a lot of 18 opportunities in that sub-class of equipment. 19 But I would say it's something to think 20 about in the future, is trying to separate those 21 classes of equipments where there might be 22 opportunity where there's less opportunity in the,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 134 1 you know, smaller increment and increasing efficiency 2 where, in that class, it might actually make more 3 sense. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, I don't know if 5 I can -- well, I will comment on that, that that's 6 more of like a product application sort of approach, 7 which, again, I think it's difficult to administer 8 when you have to base your analysis on product 9 classes, which are more based on some sort of set of 10 features, right, as opposed to where the equipment is 11 being used. 12 MR. STARR: Well, there are some 13 features to 100 percent outside air units, which 14 could distinguish, but -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from 16 Trane. 17 100 percent outside air, it is my 18 opinion that 100 percent outside air marketplace is 19 very fractionalized. It's served by several 20 different types of units, some of which are dedicated 21 for 100 percent outside air. 22 There is no test procedure for 100

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 135 1 percent outside air. I don't know you're going to 2 bring in 8765 perfect air into this thing. That 3 doesn't happen. 4 You know, our estimates is, this is less 5 than 6 percent of the overall marketplace. It's 6 small, so I don't know why you're going to make the 7 Department go through a huge energy analysis on 8 something that's very small. Making it a separate 9 class isn't going to go anywhere. 10 MR. STARR: Yeah. I agree. It's too 11 difficult. It's just more the thought of trying to 12 focus your opportunity on where it's rather than 13 trying to, you know, try to move the whole market a 14 little bit and focus on the pieces. 15 But I agree. It does -- it seems too 16 complex and it's -- yeah. So I agree with you. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. That's all I had 18 on the follow-up questions on commercial warm air 19 furnaces, so I'll turn it over to Katie Coughlin to 20 talk about the updates to the energy use analysis for 21 air-conditioners. 22 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob. So before

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 136 1 we get into that, so I go back then to we, can we 2 make some kind of a, put a stake in the ground 3 somewhere on the heating and say EL -- I forgot what 4 the number is -- but the 81? You know, hopefully, 5 we'll get something off the table. 6 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want to finish that 7 thought? I mean a full sentence, what you meant? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I know what he 9 means. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me try to -- 12 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So are you, do you want 14 to vote on the level or what do you mean by put a 15 stake in the ground? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes. I was, I 17 thought you were going to say what I meant. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: When I hear stake, I 19 think about raise the steaks. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Beef. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So what I was 22 proposing or asking is, should we vote on 81 as being

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 137 1 the level? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I don't think 3 anyone -- well, I -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: Or do we need to vote on 5 it? I don't know. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I mean, I think 7 that's for the group. Obviously, this is something 8 to talk about, if people want to do that. 9 Or was there -- my understanding, 10 bringing these two together, there was maybe a reason 11 to do that was to kind of negotiate both of them. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Well, we can hold 13 off. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And in trading off, you 15 know -- 16 MR. DeLASKI: I think that's what I 17 would say, as well. It strikes me as, let's get the 18 levels in due time. The numbers speak for 19 themselves. You know, you characterized earlier 20 today and the current -- you know, they're going to 21 change a little bit more, it sounds like, but they're 22 going to be essentially the same, right?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 138 1 But we want to try to bring the dates 2 together. We want to bring try to bring -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: True. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. DeLASKI: An agreement is an 6 agreement. It's going to the whole, the dates and 7 the levels for the two classes, and I'd like to talk 8 about them as a package. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yeah. No problem. 11 I mean, date was going to be a separate thing, but 12 yep. Fine. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I was thinking 14 that the answers to the legal questions, too, might 15 play into a final vote on not only what but when and 16

-- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I just thought we 18 had a lot of discussion about that. It would be nice 19 kind of just to clarify something. And I guess we're 20 thinking around 81, but we've got some more thinking. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: An 81 that performs like 22 an 82.6.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 139 1 MR. WHITWELL: You're tough. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because I like the 3 numbers, right? I'm just doing some math, that's 4 all. 5 MR. WHITWELL: All I can say is, we had 6 not tested so high. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So if we -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Lots of discrepancies 9 here. What can I say? 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only other question 11 I have for, actually, for my team, just to get this 12 on the record, so all these numbers reflect ADL 2015 13 at this point? 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because that's 16 important, because the price changes, the price 17 forecast changes, in ADL 2015 were a little bit 18 bigger than what I would have intuitively thought, 19 and so gas prices went down a little bit, but 20 electricity prices on average over the next -- 21 through 2045 or whatever the number is, went up. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: So both natural gas and

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 140 1 oil? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, oil is so small. 4 I realize it. I just was wondering. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I didn't look, but I 6 don't think it -- that would matter much. 7 But the electricity is going to matter, 8 I don't -- you know, it's more on the residential 9 side, so not for this group, but just for other 10 rulemakings in general, you know, there's nearly 6 11 percent increase in average over 30 years. 12 So it's a big deal to how it plays out 13 in these analyses that you're going to see. 14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and somebody 15 has got to pay to return those reliable coal units, 16 and replacing them with them flaking windows and 17 solar panels. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's not the reason 19 that they gave me, but that might be another factor. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: I think it's time for 21 Katie. 22 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So I'm going to

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 141 1 just present a few slides on the energy use. As you 2 know, we take the output of the engineering analysis 3 and combine it with our building information and 4 prepare it as an input to the life cycle cost and 5 some downstream analyses. 6 So there's a few things that are just 7 kind of housekeeping, minor changes that I made to 8 kind of clean up the data, and then there's two 9 sensitivities that we'll discuss. 10 So one of the housekeeping issues was in 11 our -- you know, we took these last simulations and 12 then backed out the building loads, and in that 13 process, you end up with kind of a long tail of 14 extremely tiny cooling loads that occur at low 15 temperatures. 16 And this is something that Dick Lord had 17 commented on a few times. Essentially, I just went 18 through and eliminated that. And so if you had a 19 very tiny, tiny heating load -- or cooling load and 20 it was also in heating mode, I just eliminated the 21 cooling and switched the system mode to heating. 22 And similarly, if you had an extremely

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 142 1 small cooling load and the fan, but only the fan on 2 otherwise, I took out the cooling load and called 3 that a ventilation hour. 4 So it makes an almost unnoticeable 5 difference to the results, as you expect. It just 6 kind of -- but it, for certain buildings, you're 7 getting things that looked very odd, and so it gives 8 you, and I think it gives you a better estimate of 9 the actual hours spent in the different modes in a 10 real building. 11 That was one thing, and that, if it had 12 an effect, it would slightly decrease the energy 13 consumption, and that's what that arrow means. 14 So the second issue was, we had been 15 going back and forth a bit on whether there should be 16 a degradation coefficient on the condenser fan. So 17 we settled that with the engineering team, and so we 18 are applying a different version of the analysis, a 19 degradation coefficient on the fan, the condenser 20 fan, but only when it cycles on and off, so only in 21 stage 1. 22 That also creates a small effect that

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 143 1 tends to slightly increase the energy consumption. 2 And then the final thing is that in the 3 analysis that we presented last time, I had kind of 4 forced the number of units going into a building to 5 be an integer, which is, actually, it's a minor issue 6 for a 7 and a half, less over 15, but for the 30-ton 7 unit, you get some peculiar results because you have 8 a unit and it's very lightly loaded. 9 So for this analysis, I allowed sort of 10 increments of 2.5 times, which seems to be kind of 11 reasonable, given what the sizes are in the market. 12 And again, this would tend to lower slightly the part 13 loads and, therefore, lower the energy consumption, 14 because it lowers the degradation. But the impact 15 is, you know, just not worth worrying about. 16 So those are the just housekeeping 17 issues. And then, of course, we've added the 30-ton 18 analysis and I'll present those results. 19 But the two main things that we had 20 discussed in the last meeting are the sensitivity for 21 building with economizers, because we're not -- 22 nobody can seem to really decide whether the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 144 1 economizers are actually working properly. 2 So the issue here is to see what 3 difference it makes if you assume like an infinitely 4 efficient economizer that just shuts the cooling off 5 when the exterior temperature is low. 6 And then the other issue was the 7 sensitivity on the load factors. So I will present 8 those results next. I will say, this is just the 9 revised -- I don't think we need to go through this. 10 The numbers really haven't changed that much, so this 11 is just these small changes I made to the energy use 12 analysis for the 7 and a half, 15, and unfortunately, 13 there's a typo. 14 There's always a typo somewhere, so this 15 is where it is this time. The slide you are looking 16 at is correct. The slide you have printed has -- 17 there was an offset, so the EL-1 was printed in the 18 base case row, and et cetera, et cetera. So that 19 doesn't look right. 20 Essentially, these numbers, as I said, 21 are very close to what we had last time. And then 22 this is the first time you'll see the 30-ton numbers.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 145 1 And as with the 7 and a half and the 2 15-ton, the -- there is a significant change from the 3 NOPR, and we also now have these multiple paths where 4 you can see, for example, when you -- this sort of 5 speaks to an issue you discussed earlier, where a CAV 6 and a VAV have the same IEER. They will have very 7 different energy consumption associated with the fan. 8 I also mention that in this analysis, 9 we're following the convention we decided on 10 previously, where, at EL-3, we introduce a conversion 11 curb. So this is the energy consumption number at 12 EL-3 for this unit is including a conversion curb 13 that adds .35 to the building ESP. 14 Whoops. What happened? 15 MR. STARR: So this was that -- just 16 some quick questions. Louis Starr with NEEA. 17 So the number, you're still using the 18 static pressure of 1.3 and .7 -- .75 for 7 and a half 19 and then 1.25 for 15 and 30? 20 MS. COUGHLIN: Not quite, no. So what 21 we have, in the building population, we have .75 and 22 1.25, so each building has one of those values

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 146 1 associated with it. 2 And then the 7 and a half and 15 puts a 3 .2 increment to the ESP at EL-3 and above, but for 4 the 30-ton, the increment is .35. 5 MR. STARR: So .2 for the curb, or can 6 you -- 7 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 8 MR. STARR: -- at the lower tonnages, 9 and then at the larger tonnages, you're using .35? 10 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 11 MR. DeLASKI: So just follow up on that, 12 Katie, so Detlef described this morning a different 13 approach determining, what I heard, anyway, was an 14 approach saying that you had curbs -- it was a 15 more -- it was a different approach determining where 16 you had a curb. 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So that's, they 18 just developed that, so that's not implemented in the 19 LCC. 20 MR. DeLASKI: So that will that flow 21 through to the LCC? 22 MS. COUGHLIN: That's up to you guys to

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 147 1 some extent. So it's a lot of work. It will slow us 2 down quite a bit, so it's a decision that you guys -- 3 if you want us to do it, we'll do it, but we'll be 4 doing LCC for a long time. 5 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. I just want to make 6 that, so that -- but the more sophisticated, you 7 know, nuance approach that you describe here is just 8 EL-3 you get the curb, which the -- 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean we do -- 10 when Greg presents the LCC results, they're actually 11 adding the -- on the new construction component on 12 the market, there is no conversion curb. 13 But just for this particular energy use 14 number, I assumed that about the conversion curb, 15 yes. 16 MR. DeLASKI: So we're adding that, 17 which made -- I think I likely discussed this 18 morning, it may not happen for some manufacturers. 19 It's going to happen to some of the baseline, so 20 we're overestimating the impact. 21 MS. COUGHLIN: Correct. We're sort of 22 doing an extreme case (inaudible) impact, but it

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 148 1 comes in in the EL-3 only, yeah. 2 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. Well, that's not 3 based just on an integer. It's going to, it's going 4 to make the EL-3 in hard look less advantageous than 5 I think it actually should look. We were actually 6 able to do the more complex analysis that you're 7 describing that follow Detlef's approach that he 8 described this morning. 9 My other question, I won't -- I have a 10 different, sort of a different topic, so if you were 11 on the same topic -- 12 MR. STARR: You know, one though about 13 this is, maybe you could simplify what you're trying 14 to do and just look at the difference in pressure. 15 Anyway, just some thoughts about a different way to 16 approach it rather than trying to stick all the 17 numbers in there and adjust the baselines on all 18 those models. You can maybe look at the difference 19 between the EL level and the baseline and just adjust 20 that at a static pressure. 21 I don't know. It might be another way 22 to do it that's a simpler way that gets you the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 149 1 answer with less work. 2 MR. DeLASKI: I guess what I would 3 suggest is that, why don't we continue with what 4 we're doing here and, you know, at some point you 5 have to say it's good enough, right? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. For the time being. 7 MR. DeLASKI: It's good enough, and this 8 gives us the basis to say, you know, we can -- I 9 mean, I jump to the end here, and the basic of the 10 story as I see it is that we seem to be converging on 11 some alpha (sic) versions, and we can tweak them and 12 we're probably going to converge. And when you're 13 converging things, and you tweak them one way, you 14 tweak them the other way, you keep converging. 15 So that's a good thing. So I'm jumping 16 to the end here. So I have a lot of -- I'm not sure. 17 You know, again, we're trying to come to a 18 negotiation here. We're not trying to not get to 19 negotiation. We're not trying, I'm not coming at 20 this trying to say, I want to keep pushing on this. 21 Because John's going to decide later on 22 without us, right? If we don't get the consensus,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 150 1 then there's going to be -- they're going to keep 2 doing their work and they may or may not institute 3 further changes beyond what we, what we ask for. 4 So we don't have to nail down every last 5 little nail here. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree. 7 MR. STARR: You know, and I tend to 8 agree that if it doesn't change the analysis, perhaps 9 it's not important. 10 MR. DeLASKI: Well, it would change the 11 analysis. The question is, does it change it enough 12 to make it worth -- 13 MR. STARR: Right. Right. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Put another way, we've 15 got to trade off time for impact. 16 I'm, frankly, very concerned, only 17 concerned, about the policy decision and the 18 implications of it, right? 19 And we keep shaving off a half a 20 percent, a nickel and a dime here and there. 21 You know, Andrew's right. It's not 22 going to change the policy decision. All it does is

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 151 1 we keep spinning the wheel around and cranking out 2 models which, you know, it gets old after a while. 3 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas & 4 Electric Company. 5 Could you go back to the -- 15, is it, 6 one that's incorrect, you said, in our handout? 7 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 8 MR. HUNT: So can I still use the 9 handout to think about this last column, the total 10 KWH, or do -- 11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 12 MR. HUNT: -- I need your new table? 13 MS. COUGHLIN: No. So you should find, 14 basically, you just -- you're offset, right? So just 15 you just need to scribble it -- essentially, you're 16 missing the base case row and you have the first non17 base case row in its place, and then everything down 18 from there should be in order and so it's kind of a 19 cut-and-paste error. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So this number, these 21 numbers -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Delete, delete the last

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 152 1 row and move everything down and add the top row. 2 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 3 MR. HUNT: Thank you, Bob. I love it. 4 Thanks. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: I will move on, I guess, 6 to the -- 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: I'm sorry, Katie, but 8 can I go back? 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Which one? 10 MR. DeLASKI: We're trying to jot the 11 numbers down. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Do you 13 want me to read them to you? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, all the numbers, 15 the numbers are all still okay, Andrew. You just got 16 to shift them. 17 MR. DeLASKI: Are we missing a row. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: The top row is missing. 19 Delete the bottom row, move everything 20 down and then add the top. 21 MS. COUGHLIN: For the revised only, the 22 top row for the revised. Yeah. The NOPR numbers are

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 153 1 correct. 2 MR. DeLASKI: And then the other point I 3 wanted to make, and I don't want to belabor this, if 4 you go back to the 7 and a half ton unit and you look 5 at the change from EL-2.5 to EL-3.5, it bothers me a 6 lot that if you look at the total at KWH per unit, 7 it's rising, all right? 8 When I see IEER going from 14.5 to 15.8 9 and consumption rising from 13,139 KWH to 13,727 KWH, 10 it bothers me. 11 Now, we had an explanation last time of 12 the engineering behind that. In fact, the 13 engineering is right here in the table, the energy 14 consumption table. The energy is going up somewhere 15 and the cooling energy is going down. 16 And I know we said our ground rules that 17 were given to us by the parent committee, by the 18 Department, were to leave the test method unchanged, 19 and I think those were good ground rules, but it 20 points to a problem, and I think the problem that we 21 all probably, you know, I think, if I was a 22 manufacturer, it would concern me that I'd have a

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 154 1 unit that'd have a better rating and have more 2 consumption. 3 What are we going to do about that? I 4 don't think it's an analytic problem. I think we 5 agreed last time it was not a problem with the 6 analysis, but it does strike me as a problem. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Andrew, and this is David 8 at Allied, and the issue is that much of the energy 9 here is outside of the test metric. And I'm not 10 disagreeing, you know, for future purposes, 11 identifying that issue. 12 The other thing is, there's more than 13 one way to solve the problem. You know, you can get 14 different energy results when you include things like 15 fan power, because when you take the IEER metric, you 16 can design it several different ways and you will 17 have differences in power that will drive these types 18 of results. 19 MR. DeLASKI: You can do that, it being 20 the unit? 21 MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh. 22 MR. DeLASKI: If we had -- go ahead,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 155 1 Bob. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So I was just going 3 to maybe draw an analogy. 4 So if you look at our current metric, 5 which is EER, right, so it's full load, you could 6 have two designs that have the same EER. One is a 7 fixed-speed compressor and fan, and the other is 8 variable speed compressor and fan. You're going to 9 have vastly different energy usage between the two, 10 right? 11 You look at its operation over 12 (inaudible) so I think you've got a similar thing 13 going on here. 14 MR. DeLASKI: But with higher -- but the 15 EER with higher, would higher EER associate with 16 lower energy consumption? I mean, this is -- it's 17 different. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I could take, I 19 could take a unit that's a little bit higher in EER 20 and if it's fixed-speed, compare it to a variable 21 speed and you still might have more energy 22 consumption on the higher EER one, right?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 156 1 I mean, it's, the metric, it's not 2 perfect, right? So it's capturing, it's showing that 3 there's more, there's more energy savings than there 4 would be if it was just a full load and it's 5 capturing that in the metric, but it's not perfect. 6 And there are trade-off you can make in 7 refrigeration system efficiency versus fan 8 efficiency, and since the data here is including the 9 fan operation all year round, which the metric does 10 not, that can show up there. 11 MR. DeLASKI: Right. So to get the 12 reduced IEER, you have less -- you're better off 13 working on the cooling side. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Not necessarily. Not 15 necessarily. I mean, what manufacturers, I think 16 most manufacturers, have done in order to meet the 17 ASHRAE 90.1 IEER requirement, they're working on the 18 fan side. 19 MR. DeLASKI: But then -- so we're -- 20 but that, this shows us a little, a range, at least 21 in the 7 and a half ton unit, where at least in this 22 example, it wasn't an example, but --

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 157 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So you are seeing 2 an effect, to some degree, in the change in ESP from 3 3 to 3.5, right? 4 So the ESP increase drives the fan 5 energy use up, and then, depending on the relevant 6 increase in the fan efficiency, you're either going 7 to see that total number go up or down. 8 Now, if we move to a more sort of 9 distribution of curb ESPs at each EL, it will smooth 10 this out a little bit, but you're not going to get 11 away from this effect, because as you move to higher 12 ELs, you're going to be putting that higher ESP in 13 more and more of the sample. 14 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. Since we're not 15 capturing -- this is Andrew again -- but since we're, 16 since the metric captures some of the fan hours but 17 not all of the fan hours, we're going to continue to 18 see this. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: This is not even the 20 metric. This is the conversion curb, really, which 21 is completely separate from the test procedure. 22 So this is like an installation

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 158 1 condition which is just creating a condition that 2 changes the energy use of the unit. So you could 3 have the same unit without the conversion curb and 4 you'll see fan energy go down as the fan efficiency 5 improves. 6 So really, it's an installation 7 condition. It's not part of the test procedure. 8 It's just, it's something that, we try to account for 9 it because the consumer will have to pay this bill, 10 right? But I don't know what you can do within the 11 current process about this. 12 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 13 So I think the answer your question, 14 what should we do with it, Andrew, is that we should 15 work toward the next round to have a new test 16 procedure for the next round of energy conservation 17 standards so that we can properly account for all the 18 aspects. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. There has already 20 been some side discussions about that fact. 21 MR. DOPPEL: I just -- Paul Doppel with 22 Mitsubishi.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 159 1 I just have a question on the slide. 2 You said that this was corrected and ours os 3 different? 4 MS. COUGHLIN: That was the 15-ton only. 5 MR. DOPPEL: 15. Okay. 15-ton. I'm 6 with you. I'm with you. 7 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas & 8 Electric and California IOUs. 9 So this is my chance once again to say 10 we need EER, and we're very, very peak sensitive so 11 that again, I plead that we have the two numbers. 12 Thank you. 13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. In that 14 context, last night I was just reviewing some 15 literature for something called the California 16 Cooling Challenge -- I think that's it's name -- 17 which is trying to look more wholistically at units, 18 which units which use indirect condenser 19 evaporative -- inter-cooling -- use condenser cooling 20 and a variety of other technologies to get a unit 21 which most hours of the year is not using its 22 compressor. So its fans are continuing to run, it's

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 160 1 continuing to provide services, but I think this is 2 one of the drivers for the point that was made by 3 Rusty that our rating method is decreasingly capable 4 of describing the equipment we'll be installing. 5 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 6 So away from the curb adapter things, it 7 could change the analysis, but I have to skip to the 8 end of the slides to see how it changes everything, 9 the policy decision, as John describes. 10 One of the other things is, on the 11 static pressures, I thought we talked about maybe 12 adjusting those potentially up. I mean, I know 13 you're using, from your last models, you're using 14 1.25 and .75. But is there a thought about changing 15 or is that just to change the change the overall 16 energy use and not the relative magnitudes? 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. We looked at. We 18 did not find any evidence that we should change our 19 numbers. So there was some work done by PNNL, and we 20 looked at that, but it did not seem to indicates that 21 what we're using was reasonable, so we're -- 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi. This is Greg.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 161 1 We looked into those NRIL (sic) building 2 prototypes that are used in 90.1, and for constant 3 air volume buildings, they use 2.5 inches of total 4 static pressure and 4 inches for variable air volume 5 buildings which assume, you know, mixing boxes and 6 the increased external static pressure that you would 7 have with the true VAV buildings. 8 So that also seems as a validation that 9 the numbers that we're using of .75 and 1.25 are 10 reasonable, again, because those are total static. 11 MR. STARR: Right. Right. In other 12 words, the total static would include the fan, the 13 cooling -- I'm sorry -- the cooling soil, the 14 filters, and are you assuming about one inch on that? 15 Is that what you're coming back with on that for the 16 internal to the unit? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, I don't 18 have that information on those building prototypes, 19 and I don't know if, Detlef, if you can comment on 20 what the internal statics might be, but -- 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we haven't been 22 looking at that, but I think we've heard from Dick

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 162 1 Lord that one inch is a representative number, and I 2 would assume that applies to a stock unit without 3 the, say, the highest efficiency filters. 4 And then one other point on those NRIL 5 models is that I think that that PNNL report does not 6 really distinguish whether those are actually 7 packaged units or a central system with chilled water 8 coil type units. 9 MR. STARR: So why would that make a 10 difference? Are you talking about the internal 11 static speed difference or the -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Big difference. 13 MR. STARR: -- package? More rolled 14 coils? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. STARR: But in a packages, 1 inch 17 seems reasonable. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: One inch is reasonable. 19 I'm not going to make, I mean, central station air 20 handler is totally a different animal. Sorry. 21 MR. STARR: And for the prototypes, is 22 that, the prototype's the small office, I assume, is

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 163 1 the one she's using, is that the 7 and a half ton, or 2 which units do they best approximate the PNNL models? 3 Are they 2.5 for all the models -- or the 7.5 for the 4 PNNL models that approximate the building types? 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, it was -- sorry. 6 This is Greg again. 7 It was based more on when there was a 8 constant air volume building or a variable air volume 9 building. So again, the 2 and a half static, it 10 wasn't distinguishing between the capacity of the 11 unit. It was more, it was focused on the type of 12 system. 13 MR. STARR: I would just point out that 14 2 and a half minus 1 is 1 and a half, and you're 15 using 1 and a quarter and three-quarters, so, I mean, 16 I admit that one and a half or one and a quarter, you 17 don't need to sweat the details on that, but the 18 difference between one and a half and three-quarter 19 is a factor, too. 20 So perhaps -- okay. But I think, 21 essentially, though, it would just show additional 22 fan energy here right? And it wouldn't necessarily

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 164 1 change the relative magnitudes of performance of 2 this. 3 Is that your take on it, Katie? 4 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, again, 5 it's a little hard to -- I mean, as you go up in EL, 6 it really would depend, it sort of changes the 7 weighting of the cooling and the energy in the fan, 8 so that changes the weighting of the efficiency 9 improvements on those two components and it's 10 somewhat unpredictable what it will do as a function 11 of EL, but it would tend to drive you further and 12 further away from the IEER giving you a good 13 prediction of energy use, I would think. 14 That's it? So in the last meeting, we 15 agreed that we should look at the way that the energy 16 use by the units is distributed over exterior 17 temperature, and then based on that, we would think 18 about what to do with economizers. 19 So the analysis that we did is we create 20 a set of temperature bins for the outdoor dry bulb 21 temperature, and then we just go through this hourly 22 simulation files. And in each hour you have the dry

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 165 1 bulb temperature, so you assign that temperature to 2 one of the temperature bins. And then we just 3 calculate these totals, considered the distribution 4 of the energy use or the heat load or whatever across 5 those bins and then what I'm going to show you are 6 aggregate results for the building sample, the 1033, 7 where I'm just using the CBECS building weights. I 8 haven't tried to convert this to the generalized 9 building sample. It doesn't seem to be worth the 10 trouble of doing that. 11 And so this is the picture that you get. 12 I think I'm only showing 7 and a half ton. They're 13 all kind of qualitatively similar. So this is the 14 heat load. 15 Essentially, the head load, the total 16 heat load is the building load plus the fan load. So 17 when you go to 15-ton, you might have a slightly 18 different fan load, but it makes almost no 19 difference. 20 And then the index on the bottom is the 21 region. If you're familiar with census division 22 indices, so that's New England; Mid-Atlantic; East

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 166 1 North Central; West North Central; 5 is 2 South-Atlantic -- that's a lot of cooling -- 6 is 3 West South Center, Texas, et cetera -- or East South 4 Central; 7 is West South Central, so 7 is Texas; 8 is 5 Mountain; 9.1 is Pacific Northwest and 9.2 is 6 California. 7 And the blue and the red are below 55 8 degrees, so the blue is sort of, it's very cold. 9 Somehow, the simulations are predicting some cooling 10 even when the temperature is below 35 degrees. 11 The red is a little more moderate, and 12 then the purple, the blue and orange at the top are 13 perfectly reasonable to assume the system is heating 14 there, and then there's kind of, you know, the 55 to 15 65 is a little bit unclear, if you had an economizer 16 on your building, you know, would it really be 17 needing cooling or not. 18 And I have looked at the data for the 19 economized building and the non-economized 20 separately, and it's extremely difficult to pick out 21 any clear signal about whether the economizer 22 actually works.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 167 1 Just two, this is another view of the 2 same data. So this slide here shows you each region 3 divided by percentage. 4 So in general, it's very reasonable that 5 in the cooler regions, you're operating more in lower 6 temperatures, so in that sense, it all looks fine. 7 But as I said, it's not really helpful 8 for trying to come up with a kind of correction to 9 the economizer. 10 So instead of trying to correct the 11 economizer, we thought we could do the sensitivity 12 where you could get rid of the cooling load 13 completely when the outdoor temperature is below 60 14 degrees. 15 It's a more or less arbitrary number. 16 Greg and I sat down and he said 55, I said 65, 60, so 17 we picked 60. 18 So once you pick that thing, it's very 19 simple just to, again, I go through the hourly data 20 and if the temperature outside is below 60 degrees 21 and you are in a building that has an economizer, I 22 just zero out the cooling load, so we leave the fan

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 168 1 running. 2 And results are here for -- this is just 3 a scatter clot. So one point is each building at a 4 given EL and overall, you know, you can see this 5 actually does not have a very large impact. 6 So the solid red line is just a 7 diagonal, and then the blue dots are what 8 happens -- I've got the energy consumption for all 9 hours on the horizontal and the energy consumption 10 with the, what I'm calling them hot hours on the 11 vertical. So it tends to drop the energy use, as you 12 would expect, but the quantity, the change in 13 magnitude, is very small. 14 And then finally, the table here may be 15 a little more informative. So this is, again, I go 16 through the sample. I now apply the weights 17 associated with those CBECS buildings. I just look 18 at the total reduction in energy use in each region. 19 Well, now, this is weighted. This is for the country 20 and this is as a function of EL. 21 So it goes down by anywhere from, I 22 think it's 3 to 8 or 9 percent, depending on the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 169 1 efficiency level. 2 So this is a sensitivity. I'm not 3 necessarily advocating that we should zero out all 4 these loads, but personally, this is not something 5 that I would concern myself with. A few percent 6 across the board is not necessarily a big deal. 7 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 8 So essentially what you're saying is 8 9 percent -- you know, I don't know what, the average 10 of these numbers, but anywhere from 5 to 8 percent is 11 due to the economizer and so what you're saying is 12 that's the effect it would have. Whether you looked 13 at whether some of the economizer is working, 14 basically, it is a 68 percent weighting of the whole 15 cooling energy. Is that what you're saying? 16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So essentially, we, 17 so our simulations have an economizer in them, and 18 there's been this discussion of whether that 19 represents real economizers. 20 So this is saying, if every economizer 21 in the population was absolutely perfect and you 22 never, ever, ever needed to cool below 60 degrees,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 170 1 this is the change in your total annual energy use 2 that you would get. 3 So, of course, real economizers are not 4 perfect, and the kind of -- if there's something 5 wrong with the current method, it could never be 6 wrong by more than these percentages and probably by 7 substantially less than these percentages. 8 MR. STARR: I guess the other point of 9 this chart is to show there's not much spread depend 10 on whether you have a base unit or really efficient 11 unit. 12 Well, I think in general, like your zero 13 at a 7 and a half ton, you're at 5.8, and at your 14 base one, where at a really efficient unit, you're at 15 4.2, so the effect of economizers working better or 16 working worse, you don't really see much change in 17 your energy use across the -- is that -- 18 MS. COUGHLIN: I mean, this, because 19 we're not affecting the cooling load, we're not 20 affecting the fan load, that variability has more to 21 do with the relative contribution of those two to the 22 total energy use.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 171 1 So you have, for example, a higher 2 impact at the EL-1 when you have a VAV, because the 3 fan is a lower part of the total energy use. 4 MR. STARR: So that really, the only 5 thing -- I should say, is it your take that the only 6 thing that's really happening here by saying 7 economizers work or don't work, you're really just 8 affecting the total amount of energy that's used but 9 not the relevant magnitudes between the equipment? 10 So in other words, your total national 11 energy savings, if you assume a certain amount of 12 economizers not working, that number goes up, right? 13 Because you could have been getting cooling or pre14 cooling when you were not. So instead of whatever 15 you predicted as 11.7 quads, maybe it's a number a 16 little bit higher or a little bit lower, depending on 17 whether your economizer assumptions are correct. Is 18 that the only change that, in your opinion, you're 19 making? 20 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, again, 21 this is too bound, because there is a lot of 22 discussion about, you know, how economizers really

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 172 1 lower the energy use. And so this, in my opinion, 2 kind of proves that they can't lower it more than a 3 few percent, even if they worked perfectly. 4 And again, we're using the fraction of 5 economizers from CBECS, so we know that. So really, 6 this is just to kind of hammer home the point that we 7 don't really think the economizer issue is 8 significant for the energy consumption. 9 And, yeah, since it's quite uniform 10 across ELs, it's not going to change the behavior of 11 the energy savings. 12 MR. STARR: There is one thing I was -- 13 well, I guess this is on the cooling. I was 14 expecting in the 30 time, in which you have a VAV 15 unit in some of your higher units, I was thinking you 16 were going to have more savings. But that actually 17 happened on the fan side, not on the compressor side 18 from the precooling. So that would maybe show up 19 differently. 20 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. You really can't 21 say anything about savings from this chart. That's 22 not -- yeah. This is, again, just across the board,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 173 1 you know, what is the absolutely maximum error you 2 might be introducing by not perfectly representing an 3 economizer. And, as I said, the likely error is 4 probably much closer to a fraction of this. I mean, 5 we're not convinced there is any error at all in the 6 economizer, so again, you know, this is just a bound. 7 MR. STARR: You mean your economizer 8 assumption; is that what you're saying? 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, you know, we don't 10 really have the information to get to those details 11 of how the modeling was done, but it was modelled, 12 and, you know, with that 30 percent failure rate and 13 that seems like it was a reasonable approach and -- 14 yeah. 15 MR. STARR: I got it. Thanks. 16 MS. WALTNER: I'm just curious. Looking 17 back in the last meeting and meetings before we 18 looked at the differences in the cooling load for a 19 cooled square footage, I'm looking at how the percent 20 difference in those numbers compares to that, these 21 numbers here. 22 Is that the right comparison to be

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 174 1 making? I mean, there, you know, the average 2 difference was about 25 percent between the 3 economized or non-economized buildings, and these 4 numbers look lower, which -- 5 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Well, if you 6 multiply that by .3, you're getting in around the 7 right ballpark, because those are roughly 30 percent 8 of the buildings. 9 So comparing an economized to a non10 economized building, you get 20-25 percent, when you 11 consider that the economized buildings are one-third 12 of the population. 13 And then I think there's no question in 14 my mind personally that an economized building is 15 cooling when the temperature is up in the 70s, so 16 there's also that. 17 MS. WALTNER: Thank you. 18 MS. COUGHLIN: So we do want a decision 19 before we go on what, you know, what the, how the 20 committee would like to proceed for the treatment of 21 economizers in the analysis. 22 If that's it on this, I will move on to

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 175 1 the next slide. So this is the load factor issue. 2 And again, I'll just recap very briefly what the 3 question was or what the issue is, is again, we're 4 treating our, however many units we have in a 5 building, we're operating it as a single system. 6 We know that real buildings have 7 multiples loads, and that's not the way they operate. 8 So again, the idea here is to do a 9 sensitivity that looks at what happens when you 10 change the way the load is distributed across your 11 units. 12 So the only, the only way that it 13 impacts the energy use is through the calculation of 14 this degradation factor, and it has a very small 15 effect because, essentially, the real driver on 16 energy consumption is the amount of heat that you 17 have to remove, and that doesn't change so you're 18 really just sort of saying your degradation factor is 19 changing a little bit. 20 So when I did this particular 21 sensitivity analysis, I applied the reloading to the 22 upper stage only, and I only applied -- obviously, if

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 176 1 you've got more than two units in a building, then 2 you have a choice about which one is going to get 3 loaded. 4 And again, the idea is to say, if I have 5 a building in which there are ten units and I'm in 6 the upper stage, whatever it may be, and I only need 7 four units to meet the load, four plus a little bit, 8 I'll put all that load on four units, and then I have 9 only one unit being degraded. 10 And sort of cutting to the final answer 11 here, this is the -- again, I'm using a similar 12 metric -- this is the resulting change in total 13 energy use represented here by region at the 14 different tonnages. 15 But this is just the base case. I 16 didn't do this for the standards cases. But again, 17 you would expect them to be the same. 18 So it's a really minor impact. It's 19 consistent with what I expected, so again, we're 20 looking at a difference of sort of .1 to, at the 21 most, 2 percent. And on a national basis, it's 22 essentially 1 percent.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 177 1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and 2 California IOUs. 3 I move that we accept the analysis for 4 annual energy consumption without requiring it to be 5 redone, taking account of these two factors or, put 6 another way, I move that we not request that LBNL 7 redo their analysis to include these two issues. 8 MR. BANTLE: Should we take a vote? 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's a great 10 idea. 11 MR. HUNT: We need a second. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I'll second it. 13 MR. HUNT: Debate? This is Marshall. 14 Again, any numbers I look at, I always 15 have an uncertainty bar, and these are within any 16 kind of uncertainty bar that I would apply to the 17 numbers. Thanks. 18 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 19 You know, it's like the economizer. 20 While in reality, I think it's more than 33 percent, 21 I think, Dick and the manufacturers thought it was 22 less than 33 percent. It seems to me a reasonable

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 178 1 number. 33 seems like a reasonable number, and 2 that's how you've done your analysis, so I'm happy 3 with the economizer, using the analysis that you had 4 in originally. 5 And in the case of this chart up here, 6 I'm not so much on to this particular issue. If the 7 numbers are right, it doesn't seem like it makes much 8 difference right away, so I would be in favor of 9 that, as well. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and my 11 version of sensitivity analysis is to see what the 12 manufacturers are thinking about the motion. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 14 I guess my thought is that the numbers, 15 it is relatively consistent with the analysis. I 16 mean, it's expected to be single percentage point 17 differences, and in the interest of moving on, it 18 wouldn't bother me to accept not making any further 19 changes, as long as we can remember that when we go 20 to the negotiating values, that there is some fudge 21 factor there. 22 Does that make sense?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 179 1 MR. DeLASKI: Well, it makes sense in 2 the fact that there's fudge factors going in multiple 3 directions here. That was my point on the earlier 4 issue about the curb. 5 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt. 6 I think of it more as an uncertainty. I 7 don't particularly like fudge. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. 9 Yes. In light of moving forward, I 10 would agree. I think what we have to note here is 11 that in future rulemakings and in future analysis, 12 these things need to be considered up front. 13 Thank you. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And in speaking to 15 that -- this is John with DoE -- so there's, you 16 know, in every analysis, there's a series of 17 assumptions that analysts have to make for better or 18 for worse. 19 We do our best to do a lot of 20 uncertainty analysis, and we put a lot of effort in 21 to doing these Monte Carlos simulations that span the 22 breadth of what's out there.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 180 1 So, you know, looking at a point 2 estimate in anything is really dangerous. But I 3 think what we've shown here, we've done our best to 4 do some sensitivity to sort bound the reality of the 5 numbers. 6 Personally, I'm comfortable with single, 7 you know, low single digits, so I would think we 8 could move off of this point unless somebody else 9 doesn't like it. 10 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 11 You know, I would point out that we're 12 not changing LBNL's analysis at this point with the 13 curb, which we just heard about two or three hours 14 ago, which there may be as much as a factor of 2 on 15 that. 16 The static pressures that are being used 17 in the model are pretty conservative on the low side 18 in terms of the current 90.1 best design models are 19 using a factor of 25 percent to 100 percent more in 20 the static pressures, and that older buildings even 21 used more static pressures in the past, which has a 22 certain amount of -- so, I mean, to my mind, some of

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 181 1 these numbers are squishy in the sense that I think 2 the energy efficiency would be or higher levels would 3 be may be better representative of that. 4 So, I mean, I'm willing to accept the 5 numbers just because it's for a policy decision that 6 we're making. I don't -- I mean, I think my general 7 feeling is that if the numbers were more accurate, it 8 would show or tend to favor the higher efficiency 9 levels. 10 But since -- when we go back to the end 11 of the thing, it doesn't really change the magnitude 12 of the relative magnitudes between the numbers. It 13 doesn't seem to me that it's important. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Great. This is John 15 from DoE. 16 And that was my point earlier, that I 17 think that the relative position of the TSLs and the 18 policy decision to negotiate here, you know, you can 19 slide them all around, but I think where they fit in 20 the queue and how we all negotiate that level doesn't 21 change. Instead of 11 quads, maybe it's 13 quads, 22 whatever.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 182 1 MR. DeLASKI: And I agree. That has 2 been said, but I just wanted to second Jill's point 3 that, you know, of course, right, if you were to 4 start again fresh from where we sit today, we've all 5 learned things, including the analysts, that you 6 would maybe do things a little bit -- you would learn 7 and build it from at the beginning. You know, that's 8 part of the learning process. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: So should we have a vote 10 on this, see if is there a consensus? Let's see. 11 Who would like to state what the subject is, that the 12 issue? 13 MR. HUNT: The proposal is that the 14 group will not request that LBNL redo the analysis to 15 take into consideration the impact of either the load 16 factor or the exclusion of cool hours, as shown in 17 tables on 54, 52 and 54 of our handout. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it thumbs up and thumbs 19 down? 20 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Thumbs up and thumbs 21 down. How about let's show a showing of thumbs. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Diane has a thumb on the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 183 1 phone, also. 2 MS. HOFFMAN: Diane has a thumb. Okay. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm assuming she has 4 thumbs. 5 MR. HUNT: I saw her. 6 MS. HOFFMAN: It's unanimous. 7 MR. FREEMAN: Any comments from those on 8 the webinar. 9 MS. JAKOBS: No. My thumb was up. 10 MR. FREEMAN: Thank you, Diane. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And thank you, 12 Marshall, for phrasing that. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. 14 I guess one of the questions I had that 15 comes from my mind is in the whole process, in the 16 process, Louis (sic) an RFI, gathers information and 17 he goes back, does an analysis, and the first time 18 any of the stakeholders see information is at the 19 NOPR. 20 So when the information is being vetted 21 for the first time by the DoE's contractors, that 22 really would be the ideal time for stakeholders to

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 184 1 have input, but yet we don't get to see, any of the 2 stakeholders, get to see anything until the NOPR is 3 complete. 4 So there something that we can do where 5 there's some more interactions between the DoE and 6 contractors and stakeholders between the RFI and the 7 NOPR so that we can address some of this? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: John from DoE. 9 So normally, there is actually a pre10 analysis where that actually takes place. 11 In this case, given the statutory 12 requirement and the time we had, or that the NOPR 13 had, we did the RFI for the things we thought were 14 most important for us to gather information on. 15 Maybe these two things didn't make the 16 cut. I'm not sure. You know, we used the building 17 stimulation models that were available, again, due to 18 where we were in the statutory requirement that we 19 had in place. 20 So yeah. I mean, we're doing, we've 21 done new things where we've put out NODAs and we've 22 put out spreadsheets early for a few rulemakings, and

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 185 1 we're trying to do more of that where we get more 2 comment. 3 As for the interaction, in a normal 4 rulemaking setting, there, you know, there is the APA 5 rules. Eric can talk about that. We have ex parte 6 communications that can happen at any time. You have 7 the NDAs available to you with our contractors that 8 you can exercise at any time in the process. 9 I think we're open within the bounds of 10 the law to do any, anything that gives us more 11 information, absolutely, as long as we're not 12 breaking any of the APA rules, absolutely. 13 MR. WHITWELL: So John, this is Bob from 14 Carrier. 15 So should we, I mean, do you think that 16 in the future, commercial rulemakings would have the 17 NODAs come out? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think the 19 normal process, if there's not a statutory 20 requirement to do something very quick, which there 21 was in this case -- I mean, we were under the gun, 22 frankly. We weren't given a lot of time to get the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 186 1 NOPR out, definitely not enough time to do our 2 normally preliminary analysis or a framework, even, 3 that we do for a lot of rulemakings. 4 It wasn't that we didn't want to get 5 more information out there. It's just we just, 6 frankly, didn't have the time. 7 Oh, Charlie voted thumbs up, as well, 8 just for the record. 9 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs, 10 and I was kind of worried about, there's a comparison 11 made between 90, ASHRAE 90.1 against, and it seems 12 that all of Dick Lord's efforts to compare what the 13 (inaudible) for the DoE analysis versus the 90.1 was 14 really very insightful, and it seemed like we 15 shouldn't be doing that right away, early on, that 16 there should be -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would point to any 18 data. I mean, I don't, we don't have to pick on 19 certain parts of the analysis, but it would be very 20 nice in all rulemakings to be able to get shipment 21 data early on. It would be nice to get whatever 22 data. It just doesn't always happen.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 187 1 Sometimes it's at the end, but at least 2 we're still able to get it into the rulemaking 3 process. 4 You know, I think where we're sitting 5 today, we've looked at the numbers, we've done 6 sensitivities. I think by the vote, it looks like 7 everybody is pretty comfortable with where we are, at 8 least with the numbers, which I think is good. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's move ahead, then. 10 Let's see. Greg? Katie? Where are we 11 in your presentation? 12 First, thank you, Katie. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why don't we take a 14 break. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, we want to take a 16 break. Okay. Ten-minute break, come back soon 17 thereafter. Thank you. We're off the record now. 18 (Recess at 2:46 p.m., resuming at 3:07 19 p.m.) 20 MS. HOFFMAN: Come on, everybody. Let's 21 get started. Take a seat. I have a virtual whip. 22 No. Anyway, we're back, we're on the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 188 1 record, and we're going to see what we can do until 2 we adjourn today at 5:00. 3 MR. SACHS: If we're good, can we go 4 home early? 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but that's a big if. 6 Back to Greg. I'm sorry. 7 MR. TERZIGNI: Back to our discussion on 8 pressures on the duct system, I sent out a couple of 9

-- 10 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Mark. 11 MR. TERZIGNI: I'm sorry. This is Mark 12 Terzigni with SMACCNA. 13 We sent out a few questions for static 14 pressures near the fan return supply side. The short 15 story is, based on the response I got back, if we 16 average those out, they're really just slightly over 17 an inch in most cases, like 1.15. You know, I took, 18 I got a couple of respondents, so I averaged out the 19 numbers. So I mean, you guys are using one inch, I 20 think, is what -- 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: .75 and 1.25. 22 MR. TERZIGNI: Right. My number lands

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 189 1 right in the middle of those, and those are measured. 2 Again, these are TAB guys telling me, We 3 can't measure that close to the fan. They're 4 slightly downstream or slightly upstream of the fan 5 itself, where the flow is straightened out enough 6 where they can get a good measurement. 7 So I would say that the numbers that 8 you're offering are reasonable. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 10 Do we need to vote on that or we can 11 pretty much accept that? 12 MR. STARR: I think we already voted on 13 it. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: Thanks, Louis. 15 Okay. Moving right along, Greg? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to go over 17 updates to the life cycle cost and payback periods 18 analysis for CUAC. 19 Again, you've seen this Chevron chart 20 many times before, but, again, the life of a cost 21 analysis takes inputs from the energy use and 22 engineering to come up with consumer impacts to folks

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 190 1 that use this type of equipment in their buildings. 2 So you saw this chart last week. Just 3 focus on the bolded text, which is the change that 4 was made for this iteration of the life cycle cost 5 analysis. 6 Here, for 30 tons, on the VAV designs, 7 they were applied to all equipment after EL-2.5. So 8 for EL-3 and above, we only had one design that was 9 applied to all, all buildings, and that's whether it 10 was constant air volume or variable air volume. 11 I should repeat that, for 7 and a half 12 tons and 15 tons, there were multiple design paths 13 for constant air volume buildings and variable air 14 volume buildings up through EL-2, but then after 15 EL-2, there is only one type of design that was 16 applied to all buildings. 17 A big change from last week is that I 18 looped back with Taylor Engineering to talk about the 19 diffuser replacement issue for constant air volume 20 buildings that get a variable air volume piece of 21 equipment, and I'll be talking about this later in a 22 more in-depth slide, but based upon that discussion

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 191 1 and the source material they gave me, I've taken out 2 diffuser replacements from consideration for this 3 analysis, and I'll ask you to hold off your questions 4 until I get to that slide to explain why. 5 On conversion curb costs, last week you 6 saw that we used just $1,000. Now we have numbers 7 that are a function of the three capacity classes, so 8 I'll ask -- you'll see a slide. I'll wait 'til you 9 see that slide so I don't steal any thunder from 10 myself. 11 On the repair costs, we implemented 12 non-compressor repair costs in the seventh year 13 because it slides and compressor repairs in the 13th 14 year. In last week's results, everything is in the 15 tenth year. 16 No changes to equipment lifetime, 17 because we received no data, no new shipments data, 18 from AHRI. So again, this is another sort of request 19 for that data. Again, it's getting pretty late in 20 the game now, so at some point I guess we'll have to 21 decide whether or not we should proceed without that 22 data or not.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 192 1 MR. DeLASKI: I guess this is a 2 question -- Nick's gone. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry. I just looked 4 up. 5 MR. DeLASKI: Are you guys looking for 6 him, too? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 8 MR. DeLASKI: So we thought we were 9 getting (inaudible) by the end of last week he told 10 us at the last meeting. I don't know whether any 11 members know. We can wait until Nick's back. 12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with 13 SMACCNA. 14 What is the current lifetime? Is it 15 back to the numbers that we talked about? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The ones that 17 you saw last week with the averages of 21 years for 7 18 and a half and 15 tons and 33 or 34 years for 30 19 tons. 20 So again, that's coming straight out of 21 our calibration with the shipments model, looking at 22 historical shipments.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 193 1 MR. TERZIGNI: Again, I reached out to a 2 group and asked the question. Most came back with an 3 answer of 15 to 20 years across the span. A couple 4 of respondents did say that the lifespan tends to 5 increase as the tonnage goes up, so it correlates, at 6 least, with your approach. 7 I can work on getting more of those 8 kinds of numbers as quickly as possible in lieu of 9 shipment data, if that helps. 10 MR. MISLAK: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I 11 guess the question -- 12 MR. TERZIGNI: Shipment data? 13 MR. MISLAK: So basically, we have data 14 from most of the manufacturers. We're missing two of 15 the major manufacturers, but we do have the majority 16 of it that we could share. 17 We also have some information on 18 economizers that we could share and then we have some 19 total numbers that we could potentially share. I 20 need to have one more conversation with the 21 manufacturers to kind of clear everything, but we do 22 have probably all the data that we're going to get at

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 194 1 this point to file, so we need just need one quick 2 discussion, and then we can pass it along for 3 analysis. 4 MR. DeLASKI: Nick, I'm going to put you 5 on the spot. I guess I'm disappointed, you know, 6 that two manufacturers have chosen not to submit 7 data. I don't know who they are. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: They are not in this room. 9 They have not been participating. 10 MS. DeLASKI: Can you give us a -- I 11 mean, you can't. I was going to ask you for how 12 significant are they in terms of market? 13 MR. MISLAK: We've reached out to them. 14 We can request them to give us the data. 15 MR. DeLASKI: They are AHRI members -- 16 MR. MISLAK: They are AHRI members. 17 Unfortunately, we can't force them to provide the 18 information. 19 MR. DeLASKI: Can you comment on how 20 representative of the market you think the data that 21 you've collected is. 22 MR. MISLAK: We have seven of the nine,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 195 1 probably, of the major players. 2 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. That sounds correct 3 to me. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, and so I think what 5 we need to discuss -- 6 MR. DeLASKI: I'll take back my 7 disappointed comment. Seven out of nine is not. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Duly noted. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So what Nick and I had a 10 conversation about is we do have like total numbers. 11 They're not going to be total in each of these bins 12 by any means, but we do have total numbers. 13 And so you could kind of see, if you 14 added them up, you know, could we release those total 15 numbers? And so that's conversation he hasn't had 16 with everyone else. He and I have had it, but he 17 hasn't had it with everyone else. 18 MR. DeLASKI: What I heard Greg said as 19 you ran out of the room was time is short. The hope 20 is to have it by end of last week. 21 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. We, the next quick 22 break we have here, we just need to have a quick

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 196 1 manufacturer talk, and then we could potentially give 2 it to you guys today or as soon as possible, okay? 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 4 Greg, on this service life issue, you're 5 using some extended lives based on the shipments 6 model, and boldly speaking, the question is why you 7 think your shipments model is a more accurate 8 indicator than things like the planning numbers that 9 manufacturers use in their models, the information we 10 are getting back from SMACCNA and other indices. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Katie will get into 12 this in talking about the shipments model, but 13 there's two primary sources of the data we use. 14 That's stock saturations that we get out of CBECS and 15 historical shipments that we have. 16 And all we're trying to do is apply a 17 lifetime function to that shipments data to match 18 that stock saturation, and so we're using that data 19 to derive a lifetime value. 20 So I guess that's the reason why we're 21 using it over the information we're getting out of 22 this group right now.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 197 1 We're hoping that the AHRI data, you 2 know, the new AHRI data, would provide more insight 3 into, what, what's the appropriate value? 4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 5 With all due respect, I'm inferring that 6 there's a certain amount of softness in any service 7 life estimate that we can bring to the table. 8 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 9 Yeah. One of the things that I think 10 that is of a concern to me is, you know, obviously, 11 the lifetime of this equipment I think affects the 12 analysis a lot, so up or down. So I understand it's 13 a difficult task and so I would like it to be based 14 upon data that, data that necessarily is not provided 15 in a way that reflects positively on how you might 16 analyze equipment one way or the other. 17 So I mean, I would prefer some of the 18 information somehow be as objective as it can be. 19 MR. DeLASKI: But isn't that what you -- 20 the stock is the stock, right? We have the stock and 21 you have a flow basically, and you guys, the two have 22 to work together, right? So your stock is the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 198 1 standard stock analysis at some level is your check, 2 right? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right. I guess 4 the one shortcoming is you'll see we only have three 5 years' worth of stock data, right? 6 And our latest data point with the 7 commercial units, at least from AHRI, I believe, is 8 1999 and then we derived shipments for the next 9 decade from census data. 10 So there, from that standpoint, there is 11 some squishiness, because if we had actual AHRI 12 shipments data for the last ten to 15 years, it would 13 inform that process of deriving a lifetime a lot 14 better. 15 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie at LBNL. 16 I will be going through the shipments 17 modeling, but also, I just want to make sure, you 18 know, if you end up changing the lifetime from 16 to 19 20 years, you're going to have hardly any impact 20 because you've already discounted at 16 years. 21 It does affect the energy savings, but 22 it doesn't affect economics.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 199 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So let me move 2 on. 3 The same request for data on equipment 4 lifetime also applies to the efficiency 5 distributions, so again, no change there from what 6 you saw last week. 7 Again, you saw this slide last week, as 8 well. It's this mapping of the equipment design idea 9 that we're getting from the engineering analysis into 10 the building data that we have and the energy use and 11 then the life cycle cost. 12 Again, for equipment designs at the 13 baseline for 7 and a half tons, which is a constant 14 air volume unit, that gets applied only to constant 15 air volume buildings. 16 For efficiency levels 1 and 2, where we 17 have a constant air volume design and a staged air 18 volume design, we apply the constant air volume 19 design to the constant air volume building and the 20 staged air volume design to the VAV building. 21 And then after, from 2.5 down, all the 22 way down to level 5, all we have are staged air

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 200 1 volume designs which get applied to every type of 2 building. 3 You can see what that means in terms of 4 what efficiency levels and what buildings require a 5 conversion curb. Again, it's everything at EL-3 and 6 beyond. 7 No diffuser replacement and then you can 8 see what sort of thermostat is required based upon 9 the type of equipment design was analyzed and the 10 engineering. 11 Again, this is the same thing for 15 12 tons, again, no changes from last week with the 13 exception of the diffuser replacement. 14 Again, last week you saw, for constant 15 air volume buildings, that we had a diffuser 16 replacement for efficiency levels 4 and 5. Now those 17 have been removed. And again, I'll explain that a 18 little bit later. 19 And for 30 tons, here, again, we only 20 had the detail data available to just analyze up 21 through efficiency level 3. 22 So here we had a constant air volume

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 201 1 design only for the baseline level, for the baseline 2 level and then constant air volume and variable air 3 volume designs from 1, 2 and 2.5. 4 And again, as I explained in the 7.5 5 table, those get applied respectively to CAV 6 buildings and VAV buildings. 7 For level 3, where we have a VAV 8 equipment design, that gets applied to both the CAV 9 and the VAV buildings. 10 Again, no conversion curbs and no -- 11 actually, that's wrong. I'm sorry. Efficiency level 12 3, that should say yes, so that's wrong in your, both 13 up here and in your handout. 14 A conversion curb was applied at EL-3, 15 no diffuser replacement and finally, here are the 16 thermostats that have to be used with the equipment 17 that was designed in the engineering analysis. 18 This is the equipment prices. Again, 19 what you saw last week were just for 7 and a half and 20 15 tons. Now we're adding the 30-ton equipment 21 prices to this. 22 So again, as I reported last week, we're

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 202 1 projecting prices out into the future as constant 2 real prices because we see no discernible trend in 3 the PPI data. 4 But again, this is solely for the 5 equipment price. It does not include the 6 installation cost. Again -- 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 8 I just want to say that from my 9 experience, that use of the PPI data is the 10 appropriate way to do this. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is the 12 installation cost, again, adding 30 tons to what you 13 saw last week, when I presented only 7 and a half and 14 15 tons. 15 We're still increasing the installation 16 cost proportionately with equipment weight. We did 17 look into the crane cost, looking at the RS Means 18 cost data book a little bit more closely. 19 We saw that the crane cost does not vary 20 for cranes up to equipment that's being lifted up to 21 6,000 pounds, and so because none of this equipment, 22 even at the highest efficiency level, doesn't exceed

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 203 1 that, we assumed that crane costs don't change with 2 efficiency. 3 But again, we're sticking with this 4 assumption right now that, you know, increasing 5 installation costs as a function of weight is a good 6 proxy for what has to happen to accommodate other 7 things with the unit because it's more efficient, due 8 to it being more efficient. 9 And I know that we talked about that a 10 lot last week, and I don't know if you want to stop 11 here and talk about that further. 12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni at SMACCNA. 13 I guess just a couple of questions and 14 comments. So your installation costs there, you're 15 saying that to put a 7 and a half ton unit starts off 16 at around $3,000 to install, and that includes labor 17 and materials? 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, but it does not 19 include the equipment price, the actual unit. This 20 is just the labor and materials to install the 21 equipment. So then you add on the equipment price 22 here to get a total installed price.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 204 1 So there's 5,900 there for the single, 2 single-stage baseline unit for 7 and a half tons, and 3 you would add 2,500 to it. So you get 7,400 bucks 4 total installed price. 5 MR. TERZIGNI: I have some numbers. I 6 can tell you contractors are not very crazy about 7 sharing numbers for costs of anything, but I got 8 several respondents, and I actually found a pretty 9 good consistency relating tonnage to costs to 10 install. 11 It's more than what you have there. It 12 worked out on average to be right around 2,400 bucks 13 per ton to install. 14 Now, I can go back to that group and ask 15 if there is something in there that we -- and one of 16 them specifically says that excludes duct work. 17 That's just the cost to install those units. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Including the cost of the 19 equipment? 20 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, even if we include 21 the cost of equipment, I didn't -- the question 22 wasn't phrased that way, so I don't want to speak on

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 205 1 their behalf, but even if we include that, it's still 2 higher than the number here, including the cost of 3 equipment. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So $2,400 per ton, you 5 said? 6 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah, and -- 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So for a ten-ton unit, 8 that's $24,000, right? 9 MR. TERZIGNI: And these are guys that 10 are in the Midwest so we're not even talking coast 11 prices. 12 I'm happy to reach back out to them. 13 This was more than one respondent. Some people gave 14 me actual numbers when I gave them tonnage, and 15 another person responded with an average and when I 16 averaged them all out, they actually were all pretty 17 close. 18 I would say we could argue and maybe go 19 down to maybe $2,000 a ton, you know, with the 20 variance, but mean, I know we're off quite a bit 21 there. 22 And I'm happy to ask more questions or

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 206 1 more specific questions, but it's the -- it's not, at 2 this point, we're not at a 10 percent difference 3 here. We've got a significant difference. 4 If interested, I'm happy to dig a little 5 deeper. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's good, Mark, and 7 we appreciate that. 8 I just want to point out, the only thing 9 that really matters, though, is the Delta. So if we 10 just add $10,000 to everything, all it's going to do 11 is inflate every number and the Delta between TSL-4 12 and TSL-3 is going to remain the same. It's just -- 13 MR. TERZIGNI: So in that respect, the 14 costs were not a function of weight, because I asked 15 another question, and mainly because of, like you 16 noted, the biggest cost was if, if the weight 17 resulted in having to upgrade the roof, that's when a 18 significant trigger came in. 19 Also, when it came to the crane, crane 20 costs were crane costs. What tended to affect that 21 is the ability of the crane, its proximity to the 22 building.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 207 1 That tended, because I guess if you're 2 further away from the building you need a much bigger 3 crane because the boom is much longer -- and weather 4 was also thrown in there, which is I know, that's a 5 little tougher -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, that's the Midwest? 7 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, no. No. This was 8 all over the country. But weight was not as much of 9 an issue across the range. Like I specifically said, 10 Is weight a factor? And then enlisted the others, 11 and pretty much weight was not a big concern mainly 12 because it was not. It just wasn't. 13 MR. STARR: This is Louis from NEEA. 14 Just to point that out, that means you 15 really shouldn't scale your higher EL levels based 16 upon just as the weight as the factor. 17 MR. WHITWELL: But -- 18 MR. STARR: Go ahead. 19 MR. WHITWELL: The weight is just being 20 used as a proxy. We heard that the cost does 21 increase, the SMACCNA data was that the cost does 22 increase with capacity, so, you know.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 208 1 MR. STARR: Well, the capacity is the 2 same, right, for a given 7 and a half ton unit, 3 right? 4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm sorry. With 5 efficiency, I think you said, right? 6 MR. TERZIGNI: No. 7 MR. STARR: I didn't hear that. 8 MR. TERZIGNI: No. The answer wasn't 9 per efficiency, it was really wasn't. And I did ask 10 specifically about weight. 11 If the group feels they want to rephrase 12 the question, I'm happy to re-ask the question for 13 any specifics. 14 MR. STARR: In reality, when you've go 15 to set a unit, you're going to use two people to set 16 the unit, one guy to talk to the crane or to signal 17 the crane operator, and whether it's 7,500 pounds or 18 7,900 pounds, it's not going to make any much 19 difference than that. And the rest of the materials 20 are not going to make too much difference, either. 21 So to me it would make sense it wouldn't 22 scale really to.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 209 1 MR. WHITWELL: But I think the other way 2 to look another it -- so SMACCNA data said that it 3 increases with capacity, which is also size, given 4 its size, right? 5 MR. TERZIGNI: It does -- so let me give 6 you what I consider to be a good representative set 7 of answers. 8 So the question was, are there any 9 specific triggers that affect -- earlier it was, 10 what's the cost to install or change out a unit. 11 Include the crane, et cetera. 12 Are there any specific triggers that 13 affect cost? Is weight typically, is the weight of 14 the unit typically a significant factor? 15 So that was the question. 16 The answer, For new construction, a new 17 roof top unit, above standard cost adds would include 18 things like accessories, such as economizer, power 19 (inaudible) smoke detectors. So those things can add 20 to the cost of installation. 21 The lift; distance from crane to 22 building; distance up; lift distance in, that would

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 210 1 definitely be a factor. 2 And then obstructions, of course, 3 anything, again, affecting the crane. 4 Replacements, for a replacement unit, 5 the answers are, If the new unit capacity is larger 6 than the replaced unit, this can present electrical 7 gas piping, support steel deficiencies, and 8 therefore, added costs. Accessories the added unit 9 had that the old unit didn't are going to add costs. 10 Again, the lift goes back in there. 11 A new roof curve, we talked about that 12 earlier, or an adapter. That's an added cost. 13 If the new unit supply discharge 14 openings do not line up with the replaced unit, then 15 there would be costs in modifying the duct work. 16 New unit gas or electrical connections 17 if they're on different sides, I believe we talked 18 about that earlier, rotating units. There is a cost 19 there. 20 And then standard time versus premium, 21 which I know is not -- if we're doing nights and 22 weekends versus 9:00 to 5:00, 8:00 to 3:00 or

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 211 1 whatever. 2 MR. STARR: This is Louis. 3 You know, you could forget about all 4 that and just look at your chart there for a second. 5 So let's say you had a 7 and a half ton there and you 6 had an EL-5. So that's $4,400. 7 Let's say we instead put on a 15-ton 8 unit. It's going to cost me a thousand more dollars 9 to put on a 15-ton unit that I can bet weighs more 10 than a 7 and a half unit, right? 11 If I do an EL-1, 15 tons, it's $3,400. 12 So if I put a unit on that's twice the tonnage, which 13 I think we just said varies on capacity, but you look 14 at seven and a half ton, and it's $2,900 for your 7 15 and a half and for your 7 and a half in an EL-5, it's 16 $4,400. 17 So you're telling -- I mean, I don't 18 know. I don't really care all that much about it, 19 but I would definitely say that, if you told me which 20 is more expensive to put on a unit, a 15-ton or a 7 21 and a half ton, I think I could feel with pretty good 22 confidence to tell you that a 7 and a half ton is

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 212 1 cheaper than a 15-ton and that chart wouldn't 2 indicate that. 3 I would say what you should do, if 4 nothing else, is that the most expensive or the 5 highest EL 7 and a half ton should still be cheaper 6 than the lowest level 15-ton. And if you adjust the 7 scaling for that throughout the chart, I think I 8 would be okay with it. 9 And you could do that any number of 10 ways, based on maybe what Mark was saying or some 11 version of that. 12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 13 And just in the interests of -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's not going to be 15 true for -- I'm sorry, Harvey, for interrupting. 16 But his logic would not be true that a 17 30-ton at -- a 15-ton 4514, so then you would scale 18 that down for a 30-ton starting at level 1 at 4,514. 19 Sorry. Wrong. 30-ton, big. No. 20 You're in another whole world. Don't agree. 21 MR. STARR: Well, I'm just saying the 22 smaller ton unit, right, a 7 and a half, well, would

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 213 1 you agree that a 7 and half and a -- it's cheaper to 2 install any kind of 7 and a half ton than it is a 3 15-ton? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: What's the weight 5 difference on these two, the 7 and a half and 15? Do 6 you have that, by any chance, on your laptop? 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: I have to look at 8 James's. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So while he's looking at 10 that, just a comment. I went back and I looked at 11 the prior slides that Detlef showed, and our 7 and a 12 half ton, which is around a 3, is the same size as 13 the 15, our EL -- I mean our baseline 15-ton unit, 14 same size, physical size. So weight is probably 15 different, but it's the same size unit, right? 16 So I'm assuming that -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It shouldn't be too big 18 a difference, then. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So i'm assuming 20 that the increase in installation costs that we heard 21 about that goes up with capacity is more, if it's not 22 weight, then it's got something to do with the size

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 214 1 of the unit and the -- 2 MR. TERZIGNI: Handling process, also. 3 MR. WHITWELL: And the handling of it. 4 MR. SACHS: That's what I wanted to ask 5 about. When you said labor to install is estimated 6 to remain constant regardless of thermostat type, it 7 just sort of evoked memories of all the steps 8 required in start-up or commissioning, both. And 9 were those accommodated? 10 Because certainly, a lot more time is 11 involved in confirming operation with a 30-ton VAV 12 than a 7 and a half ton CAV. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not explicitly, no. 14 MR. SACHS: I'm just trying to be fair 15 and help out my friends among the OEMs, all one of 16 them. 17 MR. STARR: This is Louis. 18 The last thing I'd say, we can even make 19 it more start difference. I mean, even look at your 20 EL-5 at 7 and a half tons. It's $4,400, and then you 21 said, Well, for an extra -- what's the difference 22 between 44 -- $1,400, we can put a 30-ton unit on

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 215 1 there. 2 I mean, I'm kind of surprised -- well, 3 maybe Bob can answer this one -- that you're saying 4 that some of your really high efficiency equipment is 5 actually the same tonnage -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Same physical size, yes. 7 Yes. 8 MR. STARR: -- double the tonnage. 9 What's in that equipment that's making 10 it so heavy? 11 MR. WHITWELL: More coils. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Compressors, motors. 13 MR. WHITWELL: More compressors, right, 14 lower internal static. 15 MR. STARR: Should it be scaling with -- 16 you're not saying it shouldn't be scaling with -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: No. My point, my point 18 was that as you go up in efficiency on a smaller 19 unit -- 20 MR. STARR: It's heavier. 21 MR. WHITWELL: -- well, and it's bigger. 22 So, you know, it's approaching -- so I'm not

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 216 1 surprised to see at EL level 5, a 7 and a half ton 2 unit costs more to install than an EL-1 15-ton. It 3 doesn't surprise me because it's going to be maybe 4 bigger, right? 5 I mean, if our EL-3 unit is the same 6 size as this baseline 15-ton, when you get to EL-5, 7 it may even be bigger. 8 MR. STARR: Yeah. I mean, they're 9 pulling, I think they're pulling the numbers from RS 10 Means, so they probably don't get so -- they're not 11

-- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no. I mean, it's 13 based on weight, right? It's a proxy for whatever. 14 MR. TERZIGNI: Just going back to the 15 table that James had put together, the 7 and a half 16 units shipping weight starts at 750 and goes up to 17 1,320. 18 For the 15 tons, it starts at 1,703, so 19 there's no overlap. It goes up to 2,264. And then 20 going up to the 30-ton, the baseline is 4630, so 21 there is no overlap there, either. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So it's the same.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 217 1 It might be the same size or slightly bigger, but the 2 weight might be less. 3 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah. These weights are 4 like -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: And these are based on 6 current product, right? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 8 MR. TERZIGNI: And what James is doing 9 is industry average for close to that tonnage. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Industry average. Okay. 11 MR. STARR: So I wondered -- so is 12 it -- it's not -- hmm. Is this scaling by weight 13 still or maybe not? I was trying to get at, I was 14 trying to figure out what the upshot of what you were 15 saying was. Does that mean that the prices shouldn't 16 overlap in terms of the installed cost or not? Or 17 help me out there. 18 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, that's sort of what 19 I was wondering out loud myself. 20 MR. STARR: I don't know. I mean, I'd 21 be okay with scaling on weight somehow, I mean, if 22 that -- does that seem reasonable to you guys?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 218 1 MR. WHITWELL: Lacking anything better, 2 right? 3 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni. 4 I'm okay with it, too, only because when 5 you read the response, I assumed all of those little 6 additions, added compressors and what-not, are going 7 to add to the weight. So even though a contractor 8 may not think of it in terms of weight, the response 9 said, as we add more gadgets onto the price, that 10 does increase the cost. 11 I think your efficiency levels would be 12 more gadgets as we go higher. You guys put it in 13 terms of weight. They don't think of it in terms of 14 weight, but it does make sense that there's a 15 correlation there. 16 MR. STARR: The other thing is -- I 17 mean, hate to say this. Maybe it doesn't matter -- 18 but if it's convenient to change it and it's easy, I 19 would like it. But if it's going cause a lot of 20 headaches and it's not going to change the relative 21 positions of the EL levels, I don't know. 22 Actually, I'll let John Cymbalsky talk

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 219 1 to that. 2 Did you catch all the stuff earlier we 3 were talking about? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Yes. No, I'm 5 triple tasking. 6 No. I mean, I don't think it would 7 matter if we changed it. 8 MR. STARR: It would be nice to change 9 it for the record. I was actually also talking about 10 these things. It's the external static and all other 11 issues, the curb adapters and stuff. It's not so 12 much I need LBNL to go back and change all this. 13 It's just it'd be nice, when we go through the next 14 rulemaking, to have it on the record that we decided 15 that curb adapters were somewhere between .05 and 16 .26. 17 On the external, it sounds like Mark 18 confirmed your guys' assumption, or Mark (inaudible) 19 with SMACCNA, confirmed that your static pressure 20 seemed reasonable. 21 So it's just things like that. It's not 22 so much that I want to have you guys working all

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 220 1 weekend changing numbers, just so that it shows up in 2 the record. 3 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, this one's an easy 4 one to change. This one is a very easy one to 5 change. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's just got to be 7 based on something other than, I think, you know. 8 MR. STARR: Well, Mark gave an opinion. 9 MR. TERZIGNI: Why don't we put out the 10 offer, Hey, Mark with SMACCNA, if the group wants 11 specific questions and not right now, but if you can 12 get me specific questions, I'll be happy to ask those 13 specific questions and exactly how you want them 14 worded and see if we see a trend in answers that 15 makes everybody happier or not. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Are people in favor, then, 17 of giving some questions to Mark -- 18 MR. STARR: I don't think it's 19 necessary, because I think the manufacturers and us, 20 we're happy to scale it on weight, and I think the 21 manufacturers are okay. 22 So if there's not an overlap or weight,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 221 1 I mean, in other words, wherever the 7 and a half and 2 the 15-ton, if we just do that scaling on weight, in 3 other words, you wouldn't see EL-5 at 4,400 and then 4 you'd see a 15-ton EL-1. If it, indeed, is heavier 5 at the 15-ton, then you would expect to see the price 6 lower in EL-5. 7 So just making those adjustments I think 8 sounds like they said in lieu of something better and 9 spending lots of time, that seems like a good proxy, 10 and I'm okay with that. 11 MR. DEL TORO: I have a question on the 12 slide. I don't see a change in increase in 13 installation costs at EL-3 and greater for conversion 14 curbs. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's going to be on 16 another slide. We'll get to that. 17 MR. DEL TORO: Thank you. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. That doesn't 19 include that in this slide. 20 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni. 21 Just as a clarification, it says here 22 crane costs are not reflected in the costs below.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 222 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. That's correct. 2 MR. TERZIGNI: And my question 3 specifically also included specifically crane costs. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, okay. 5 MR. TERZIGNI: It's including crane 6 costs, so that may also be why there's a gap. I 7 didn't ask what those were, so I don't know what the 8 percentage of -- you know, that may make up the 9 difference. It may not, in the actual numbers. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I wish I could 11 remember what the crane costs were out of RS Means, 12 but they were substantial, right? 13 MR. TERZIGNI: Those costs. I think 14 it's a significant part of specialty -- you know, 15 crane costs make up a big part of getting it right, 16 making money or losing money on the bids. Get the 17 crane costs. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, and you know, we 19 saw the same thing, as well. And we talked to also a 20 subject area expert that we have that really, the big 21 crank on cranes is the height of the building, which 22 speaks to the fact what you saying, how close you can

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 223 1 get the crane to the building. It's all about that 2 length, about the boom, right, reach to be able to 3 put it up there. 4 MR. DeBLASIS: So that suggests to me, 5 again, if we were to play this through, that Mark, 6 your rule of them was that, what you heard back from 7 your guys, the rule of thumb was $2,400 per ton? 8 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah. Based on the 9 numbers, one guy gave me a range like that. Other 10 people gave me specific numbers, but when I plugged 11 -- there's all -- good numbers, but it worked out 12 pretty close. 13 MR. DeLASKI: So their rule of thumb is 14 driven by, Tell me how many tons and I'll give you my 15 bids. 16 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, again, you have to 17 understand in the context when they're giving no 18 other information, they're going to give you a number 19

-- 20 MR. DeLASKI: They weren't looking at 21 efficiency. They weren't looking at everything. 22 They were looking at how many tons, that that would

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 224 1 be the driver. 2 MR. TERZIGNI: Right. Now, if we get a 3 specific example, said, Here's a unit. This unit 4 has, you know, three connections and here it is. He 5 gave a very detailed example -- 6 MR. DeBLASIS: But it stands to reason 7 that that, the crane costs could very well explain. 8 If the crane costs were worked into this chart, you 9 could see that that's, I mean, you may very well see 10 that the numbers end up being -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the reason why we 12 didn't include it in that was because they didn't 13 vary in efficiency or tonnage. 14 MR. DeLASKI: Well, what Mark -- okay. 15 He didn't ask the question about efficiency, but if 16 he were, we don't know -- (inaudible). 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. It 18 sounds to me like the numbers that Mark was given is 19 the risk free estimate. I can't lose money at that 20 level. 21 It's not a bid. It's the ballpark 22 figure that fully protects me as the contractor.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 225 1 MR. STARR: Aside -- 2 MR. TERZIGNI: Again, not asking the 3 contractors themselves, but I would say, aside from 4 anything completely irregular, but yes. As a 5 building ing owner, if you ask me what should I 6 budget to do this, that's probably their starting 7 number, which, right, is going to cover certain 8 contingencies, maybe not everything, but definitely 9 a -- I wouldn't say worst case scenario but certainly 10 not a least case scenario, either. Half, plus. 11 MR. STARR: This is Louis. 12 The other thing, and I don't think it 13 really matters, but when you use RS Means, there's, a 14 lot of times, the assumption is that you're going to 15 be doing a bunch of whatever it is and so, you know, 16 with the reach -- you usually get a crane, and you 17 ask what the reach is, and they know from the height 18 and things. 19 And so they can get out there, and so 20 they -- if it's just one unit, you're going to pay 21 one price, which might be closer to what his number 22 is, but if you're going do a whole bunch of them,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 226 1 then the price can come back down, because the price 2 of the cranes' already out there; you're not paying 3 for them to come out; he's there all day and you're 4 able to spread it out amongst a number of units so -- 5 But ultimately, I mean, your RS Means, 6 you've sort of been using that across the board. I, 7 you know, I don't know how else you could really do 8 it unless you really found something wrong with the 9 RS Means. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right, and 11 let's be honest: Getting after these costs is 12 difficult. It's very difficult. So RS Means is a 13 reputable source, right? I mean, there is always 14 problems with it, probably, but it's something that 15 we can point to, right? 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. So help 17 me understand. Are we accepting these figures and 18 moving on? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It sounds like some 20 adjustment. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: Some adjustment? 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 227 1 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Okay. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, maybe we should 3 be very, very clear about what that adjustment is. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would say that. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. What adjustment are 6 we talking about, then? 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: It almost seems like, 8 you know, in some sense extrapolating a based upon a 9 ton, cost per -- 10 MR. STARR: I would say -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- cost per pound or 12 ton or ton of weight, not ton of capacity, ton of 13 weight and using that everywhere. 14 I mean, the reason why it's disjointed 15 like this is because these are the break points 16 within Means, right? They just for whatever reason 17 are providing these costs for what I would call 18 baseline, right? For 7 and a half, 15 and 30. 19 Obviously, there is an inconsistency 20 there, as Detlef just noted, by saying what the 21 weight was of the EL-5 versus the baseline 15-ton. 22 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 228 1 I would say just keep your EL-1, 2 whatever your base number, EL-1 levels are for each 3 one of them and scale all the levels above that based 4 upon weight and that seems like it would take care of 5 it. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Can you repeat that? 7 MR. STARR: So 2951 for each -- for 8 EL-2, just scale that number based upon weight. For 9 EL-2.5, scale the original 29. So keep the number 10 you have in the first column for the 7 and a half, 11 15- and 30-ton and scale it and maybe the same way 12 with the CAV, I guess. 13 Just your first number that you figured 14 out for the base model, keep that and then scale up 15 on, scale up for the higher E levels based on weight. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: But that's what we did. 17 MR. STARR: Is it? I thought they said 18 that the 7 and a half ton is not 15. Okay. Well -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: What Detlef says is the 20 weight of the EL-5 7 and half ton is less than the 21 weight of the baseline 15-ton, and so I think the 22 issue then was like, Okay. Why does it cost less to

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 229 1 install a heavier 15-ton unit than a more efficient 7 2 and a half ton unit? 3 That's what I thought the sort of 4 inconsistency we were talking about. 5 MR. WHITWELL: But some of that, I mean, 6 some of that is going to be commissioning costs, 7 right? Because you've got a more sophisticated 8 control in that EL-5 unit, probably has a variables 9 frequency drive in it that may need to be 10 reprogrammed, stuff like that. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. Certainly, the 12 complexity of the system is much great in the EL-5 7 13 and half ton than the EL-0 15-ton. 14 MR. STARR: Is it just the amount of the 15 start-up? I mean, they're going to send a start-up 16 guy out there, and he's going to spend two hours or 17 maybe, more complex, four hours? It's just the 18 amount of time that the technician is there, which a 19 technician is 120 bucks an hour. I mean, I guess 20 there could be a little bit of price difference. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Coming back to my 22 original thought, don't we only care about the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 230 1 numbers going across because we're not choosing, 2 again, 15 and 7? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only thing that we 5 all should be really focused on is, if you read to 6 cross left to right, that we capture the marginal 7 difference according to the efficiency. 8 Once you get to that ton, you know, 9 you're locked into that ton bracket. So don't -- who 10 cares about 15 versus 7, right? We care about EL-1 7 11 versus EL-5 7. 12 So if we think -- now, you can multiply 13 all that, all those numbers by 5, I don't really 14 care. Because the Delta is the same. 15 I'm just worried that we're going to, 16 again, we're going to crank, you know, make another 17 crank for no real gain or benefit here. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But you know, if you 20 think it's necessary and we have to do it, like Greg 21 said, it's not a big deal to do it. It's just, is it 22 going to change any answers? And I don't think so.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 231 1 MR. STARR: If it's not a big deal and 2 you can come up with some reasonable thing that seems 3 more right, then that's fine. That's all I'd ask. 4 If it's a big deal and takes a lot of work, then 5 yeah, don't change it. 6 MR. WHITWELL: But Louis, I think if 7 we're asking for him to do something different, we 8 got to tell him what we want him to do. 9 MR. STARR: I'm not sure now. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, he can change 11 5,000 to $6,000, sure, but why and based on what and 12 will it matter? 13 MR. DeLASKI: Yes, I would (audible) I 14 think one thing; I would suggest that we take these 15 numbers. I don't think we have a specific 16 recommendation at this point, and if -- we'll take it 17 under consideration. Maybe we'll pick up something 18 tomorrow. I think there's a need to kind of move on, 19 my advice -- it doesn't seem like it is likely to be 20 a huge issue -- and get back to our policy question. 21 MR. STARR: I would also just say if 22 LBNL, and I didn't do an analysis and I'm not a

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 232 1 construction estimator, calculator thing, but if 2 you've got an idea of what you think would be the 3 correct fix would be for it, I mean, Detlef seemed to 4 have some solution, but I don't know what it was now. 5 MR. DeLASKI: I think the point that 6 John is making is that you keep saying the fix, but 7 what's the problem? 8 MR. STARR: To me, the problem is just 9 down the road that we have the analysis somewhat 10 right in the record. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Look, I'm all for having 12 the right numbers, too, believe me, but I think the 13 point you're making is between the tonnages, and it 14 doesn't matter in the policy decision. If it was 15 wrong going across, I want to fix them. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Here's a thought to move 17 ahead. We want to just do just a temperature check. 18 We have a couple of ideas. One is Andrew says let it 19 set, think about it until tomorrow. Another is, 20 let's see. Can we live with these numbers and move 21 on? What would with you like to do, either of those 22 or both? Do you want to let it sit and we'll deal

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 233 1 with it tomorrow? 2 MR. DeLASKI: I, again, I propose that 3 we just let us consult on it. We can caucus and then 4 think about it over the evening. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll let it sit. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fine, and just a 7 recommendation on what the fix is. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like we've said, it's 10 not a huge -- (inaudible.) 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Because we've got 12 a lot to cover. Okay. 13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 14 We need a motion and then we can vote on 15 it. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Marshall, do you 17 have a motion? 18 MR. HUNT: No. We're going to caucus. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. No motion. 20 MR. SACHS: While were in transition -- 21 MR. TERZIGNI: Harvey, transition. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Which

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 234 1 L'Enfant plaza building is tomorrow. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's 950. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Number 950. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: If you have a compass, 5 it's the south building of the three that are -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: If we don't, it's the 7 farthest away. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's the furthest one 9 away from this building, that's correct. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: It's the one opposite the 11 Postal Service. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: The entrance faces 13 north. How about that? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: We need to see if the sun 15 rises. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. If you're facing 17 the hotel or what was the hotel, it's on your right. 18 So no matter which direction, it's on your right. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: I think this group can 20 find it. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll put a big New York 22 Rangers flag in front of the building tomorrow, how

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 235 1 about that? 2 MR. WHITWELL: We'll just start about 3 9:30. We'll have to look and see who's floundering 4 around. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Remember, we start 6 tomorrow promptly at 8:00 a.m. For you, Harvey, it's 7 8:00. No. No. For everyone, it's 8:00 a.m. 8 Okay. So moving right along, Greg? 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. We're moving on 10 to conversion curb and term stats. 11 On thermostats, it's the same 12 information as you saw last time, but the big change 13 here is on conversion curbs. Here, based in large 14 part on the information that Detlef collected, we 15 analyzed with a conversion curb cost of, for 7 and 16 half tons of $1,000, for 15 tons, 1,750, and for 30 17 tons, 4,000, and we applied these at EL-3, at EL-3 18 and above, and it was applied to all replacement 19 shipments, that is, that fraction of the market that 20 was determined to be new construction did not get a 21 conversion curb. 22 Roughly speaking, that fraction of the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 236 1 market is around 20 percent. That's new 2 construction, at least based upon our shipments 3 modeling. 4 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with 5 SMACCNA. 6 I actually concur with those numbers. 7 They're pretty close, not on the button, but 8 definitely within an error margin. Very specific 9 questions, very specific numbers. They're close, 10 close enough. The gaps are good enough even if the 11 cost is slightly lower. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: That speaks to Detlef's 13 inquisitor down there. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, Lewis, what do you 15 think about this one? Is it okay? 16 MR. STARR: I think it's similar. Are 17 you okay with this. 18 MS. WALTNER: I still have a question. 19 I'm sorry. It's late in the day. Maybe I'm just 20 being nuts. 21 So the distribution of conversion curbs 22 we went over earlier, where is that coming in?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 237 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: That is not applied to 2 this analysis at all yet. So -- 3 MS. WALTNER: It's not applied to any of 4 the analysis at all, we just have the distributions 5 to reflect on at this point? 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. That 7 is correct. 8 MR. WHITWELL: But we do have to say 9 whether we agree or not agree with them, right? 10 MS. WALTNER: Or whether we want them 11 applied in some way? 12 MR. WHITWELL: We ultimately have to 13 make -- 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's one of 15 the two outstanding issues from the morning session. 16 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. It's been a long 17 couple of days. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You're doing double 19 duty. 20 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. If no one has 22 any other questions, I'll just move forward.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 238 1 This is the diffuser replacement costs, 2 and, as suggested at last week's meeting, I went back 3 to Taylor and tried to get further information on 4 those diffuser replacement costs. 5 I talked to someone there named Jeff 6 Stein. I think he has been active in 90.1. In any 7 case, he pointed me to this source, something that 8 was funded by ASHRAE that specifically looked at 9 whether or not constant air volume systems could 10 accommodate a variable air volume piece of equipment. 11 And so we're talking about basically a 12 variable air volume equipment design applied to a 13 single zone system. And again, you can see all the 14 bullet points there on background on the testing. 15 I guess the important thing is here is 16 that in the results section, is that, at least in 17 this study, they found that these diffusers, these 18 constant air volume diffusers, were acceptable with a 19 variable air volume piece of equipment in a single 20 zone system down to 10 percent air flow. 21 So we were going on the assumption 22 before that if you got below 60 percent air flow, you

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 239 1 would have to change that diffuser. 2 So since this seemed to be a somewhat 3 definitive study, we went along with it, and, as a 4 result, removed the diffuser replacement costs from 5 the analysis. 6 So I would like to hear feedback on this 7 change and whether or not people are agreeable to it 8 or whether they just need to get the source of the 9 material themselves and digest it and determine 10 whether or not this is the appropriate thing to do. 11 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E 12 and California IOUs. 13 Based on the quality of the resource and 14 also the reference, I move that we accept the fact 15 that diffuser costs can be eliminated from some of 16 the analysis on some of the equipment that's 17 appropriate. 18 MS. HOFFMAN: Any -- 19 MR. TERZIGNI: Let's start with, I think 20 we'd like to take the same approach that Andrew asked 21 for, that we think about it overnight. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 240 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 2 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. If that's 3 agreeable, we will table it -- 4 MR. HUNT: Accepted. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: -- the American way, and 6 put it over, put it down for tomorrow. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe, can we take a look 8 at -- 9 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's Bob Whitwell. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell. 11 So can we go back just to Page 60 for a 12 minute? Or maybe it's 61. I just want to make sure 13 I understand what we're talking about here. 14 So this is the -- so the 15-ton. So, 15 for example, on EL-5, the equipment design is VAV 16 going into a CAV building, so you said you used an 17 SAV design there. 18 So I guess the first question is, I know 19 I'm backing up a little bit, but I wanted to hear 20 this before I came back to this, so why wouldn't it 21 be a CAV design for the -- or a VAV design 22 specifically for the VAV building?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 241 1 I guess, are you saying you don't need a 2 diffuser because you have the SAV design in the CAV 3 building? Okay. So it's only going down to 60, your 4 SAV design only goes down to 60 percent air flow? 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: In this case, I believe 6 this specific design, the air flow went down to 67 7 percent, this specific one. 8 Now, when you're talking about 30-ton, 9 for example, that EL-3, I'm pretty sure that that air 10 volume gets down to 20 percent, on that order. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So that one, that's one 12 we need to talk about, right? That the VAV design, 13 equipment design, in the CAV building where you put 14 the VAV, that's one we have to talk about. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. So again, the 16 assumption I made was that that CAV building sort of 17 by definition is a single zone system that that's 18 being applied to, I mean, that the equipment is being 19 applied to. 20 And so you're taking this variable air 21 volume piece of equipment, putting it into a single 22 zone system and reducing the air flow, right?

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 242 1 And again, based upon that study, again, 2 they found that those diffusers are good down to 10 3 percent of air flow, that is, they got good air 4 distribution and good temperature distribution. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So my question, I guess, 6 or what I'm thinking is, so that's one that we need 7 to think about, is that NA under the CAV building for 8 EL-3. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 10 MR. WHITWELL: If I look at the rest of 11 this -- no. Go -- sorry. Go back to the 30 -- so 12 the 30-ton, everywhere else that you have a VAV, it's 13 in a VAV building. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So it should already have 16 the right diffusers in it. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 18 MR. WHITWELL: The CAV buildings are all 19 using CAVs. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So that, on the 30-ton, 22 that's the only question is right there on that one,

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 243 1 on EL-3. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, and I would say 3 also at EL-4 on 15 tons, there the air flow got down 4 below 60 percent, and so that one, before I had a 5 replacement diffuser last week because of that. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So EL-4 in the CAV 7 building you got down to how far? 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Below 60 percent. I 9 believe 40 percent of 100 percent air flow. 10 So -- and on EL-5, I put a diffuser 11 replacement cost in there because it's the 12 compressor that's actually on variable speed, not -- 13 but the air flow is only staged down to 67 percent. 14 So maybe I was being a bit too 15 aggressive with that assumption of having to need a 16 diffuser replacement. 17 MR. WHITWELL: I don't see the diffuser 18 replacement shown there, though. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. Because I changed 20 that from last week. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Last week I had

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 244 1 diffuser replacement on CAV building at EL-4 and 5. 2 MR. WHITWELL: And the SAV design that's 3 an EL-5 for the CAV building, how far is that air 4 flow going? 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: 67 percent. 6 MR. WHITWELL: That's 67 percent great. 7 MR. STARR: This is Louis. I have a 8 question about this. On your study, do you know if 9 they maintain the same supply temperature regardless 10 of the air volume? 11 If you think about it, as you stage 12 down, so you're going 100 percent. Design day, 13 you're probably producing 55 degree air, right? So 14 you go down to 2 lutsers (sic) you kick down your 15 second stage of only two stages of compression or 16 compressors working. 17 Then we go down and we got down to your 18 lowest level, you probably wouldn't still be 19 producing 55 air. I'm wondering if they assumed 20 that, and that's what helped keep their diffusion 21 performance index, because the air is actually 22 getting closer to the room temperature. They're

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 245 1 dumping out, so you have a tendency. The air comes 2 out of the diffuser and drops because it's super 3 cold. 4 It's actually little bit warmer, and 5 this wasn't always possible until they started making 6 multistage equipment. 7 So I think some of the results of the 8 study is because of the way of the equipment 9 performed. 10 The other thing that's interesting about 11 this, if the study is right, and substantially, you 12 could actually have utility programs going back in 13 and taking constant air volume systems and putting 14 VAV systems in, because normally you would have to 15 change out VAV boxes and these other things. There's 16 some pretty good opportunity there, based on the 17 study. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: The only take away 19 from, I took from that study in my Jeff Stein from 20 Taylor is, you know, I think people associate with 21 VAV equipment multizone systems, right? But VAV is 22 variable air volume and doesn't necessarily imply a

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 246 1 multizone system. It can still put it into a single2 zone system. 3 So and single-zone system is what's used 4 currently with constant air volume buildings, from 5 what I understand. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So the VAV buildings were 7 all single-zone VAV? 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, the, I would say 9 the assumption is that all the constant air volume 10 buildings are single zone, right? And all the VAV 11 buildings are multi zone. 12 MR. WHITWELL: That sounds like a fair 13 assumption. Yep. Gotcha. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: And again, the key here 15 is that when you're replacing a piece of equipment in 16 a constant air volume building, you can still do it 17 with a variable air volume piece of equipment, again, 18 assuming this study is correct. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Greg, this is Detlef. 20 On that chart where you showed the EL-5 21 15-ton, that equipment design there suggests it's 22 VAV, but they're all SAV, really, and that's what we

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 247 1 said before, so that VAV there is kind of misleading, 2 right? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I mean, why I 4 designated it as VAV is because the compressor was a 5 variable speed compressor, not the air volume. 6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's an SAV with 7 variable speed compressor. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right. Yeah. 9 Okay. I'm going to move on to the 10 non-compressor repairs. Again, the same thing you 11 saw last time for 7 and a half and 15, adding 30 tons 12 now, and just note in here that these repairs were 13 applied in the 7th year of the equipment's life as 14 opposed to ten years that we had in the numbers that 15 you saw last week. 16 On the compressor repairs, again, same 17 costs for 7 and a half and 15 but adding the 30-ton. 18 Again, the big change here is going from 19 10 to 13th year of a equipment's life for that 20 compressor repair to occur. 21 Also, I want to just emphasize again, 22 like I said last week that it's assumed that only 20

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 248 1 percent of units will have to have a compressor 2 repair. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: For my own edification 4 -- this is John from DoE -- it looks like the 5 percentage of the, of the newly-installed one, that's 6 a pretty high percentage if you just replace the 7 compressor. Is that 80 percent or 80? 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh. No. 20 percent 9 are going to be repairing their compressors. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no. But the cost of 11 repair of the compressor, it looks like it's 80 12 percent of buying a new one? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's important when you 16 get to that repair-replace decision. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, it is. 19 This is equipment lifetime, same 20 information you saw last time, no changes. 21 Again, I've heard, definitely heard the 22 input from the Working Group. I'm just hoping to get

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 249 1 that AHRI shipments data to be able to recalibrate 2 the shipments model and see what that provides for a 3 new value. 4 Discount rates. 5 MR. SACHS: Whoa. I -- this is whoa. 6 On the equipment lifetime -- 7 MS. HOFFMAN: Harvey. Harvey Sachs. 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 9 For future work, I suggest we get close 10 to BOMA or IFMA. BOMA, in particular, does extensive 11 work for its members on service life and repairs and 12 the ASHRAE database with 215 mixed size units, it's 13 just not a sample. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree. This is Jill 15 Hootman from Trane. I agree, that I think that AHRI 16 should also do something, too, but we can't get it in 17 this timeframe. It's going to take a lot longer. 18 MR. SACHS: Right. Thank you, Jill. 19 This is Harvey, and I really think this is an area in 20 which the low cost will greatly improve our 21 understanding. 22 MR. DeLASKI: I have a -- this is

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 250 1 Andrew -- a question on the compressor repair cost 2 slide. Is that, is it replacing, is it a compressor 3 replacement? It's not repairing. They're actually 4 putting in a new compressor. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. It's a 6 compressor replacement. 7 MR. DeLASKI: In year 13. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: In year 13. Yeah. 9 That, those are nominal dollars, right, in year 13. 10 MR. DeLASKI: Got it. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So again, you know, 12 you're getting a present value number and discounting 13 it back. 14 MR. DeLASKI: The product life of that 15 box is assumed to be the same as all the other 16 product lives. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: The next slide it has, 21, 18 22. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I might be jumping 20 ahead, but the repair-replace decision is essentially 21 this compressor repair versus buying a new one. 22 Because all the other stuff is, pales in comparison

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 251 1 in the cost. It's a no brainer, in a sense. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Our last model, 3 shipments model, for the proposed rule was just that. 4 We assumed that the compressor failure was the driver 5 for making that decision. 6 Now, we have adjusted that shipments 7 model based upon comments we received from the 8 proposed rule and you'll hear about that either 9 later, being ten minutes or tomorrow. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Am I going to like the 11 answer? Should we wait until tomorrow? 12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with 13 SMACCNA. Quick question. When they replace the 14 compressor, does that reset the life clock; is that 15 what I'm hearing or -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. No. No. Before 17 we -- for the proposed rule, we assumed that that 18 compressor replacement extends life another full 19 lifetime, and so now we have it going for ten more 20 years, ten more years. 21 MR. TERZIGNI: That's a little bit 22 higher than -- again, I asked the same kind of

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 252 1 question. I got answers on the low end of about five 2 years, and on the higher end they said 50 percent of 3 the original lifespan of the equipment so -- and that 4 was based on a 15- to 20-year lifespan. 5 So if we take the 20-year, half of that 6 means another ten years, so the average would be 7 7-ish, 7 and a half years, just as a -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Did they happen to give 9 a demand elasticity review? 10 (Laughter.) 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Touche, Greg, touche. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry. It's like 13 the Holy Grail, right? 14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm 15 trying to think as though I were a customer, and it 16 seems to me like my repair versus replace decisions 17 might be quite different for a 7 and a half ton unit 18 with one compressor, one- or two-stage, versus one of 19 these 30-ton or 50-ton units with more compressors 20 than I can count on one hand. 21 It seems to me that the analysis at 22 least needs to break, and it may not be possible this

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 253 1 time, more than two compressors versus one or two in 2 terms of how the customer's going to do his 3 decisions. 4 I've got a big machine and the first 5 compressor is blown. I'm going to wonder about the 6 expected additional life of the second compressor. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 8 You have to remember that you have the 9 crane costs involved, too. That makes a huge 10 difference in repair or replace. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill from Trane. 12 I really can't put this whole data into 13 the public document, but we have extensive market 14 research data that we've done specifically with 15 national accounts. 16 I think those and other manufacturers in 17 the room can argue with me, but you might say it's 18 around 15 to 20 percent of the overall unitary market 19 as national accounts, and national accounts and their 20 buying pattern is pretty documented in this research 21 that says that they buy every ten to, eight to ten 22 years. They rip up a roof, they retrofit and

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 254 1 redesign the building and the unit is scrapped, new 2 unit goes in. 3 So there's no more of this 20-year life 4 happening on at least 20 percent of these. They're 5 doing that for a lot of different reasons, because 6 they wanted to make the whole building look better, 7 you know, all different things that they want to do 8 to make that, to make a national account customer to 9 drive comfort levels, to maintain appearance, 10 incentivize. They incentivize their employees to 11 maintain an appearances and making corporate levels 12 to drive the business and all that kind of stuff. 13 So that's their motive. The tip the 14 roof up, usually, in those retrofits and so the whole 15 unit gets replaced. It's a longer buying process. 16 It's about a four-week buying process instead of a 17 plan -- you know, emergency replacement. It's an 18 eight- to 10-year cycle. It's pretty documented. 19 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 20 When I was at the Western Cooling 21 Efficiency Center, I received in conversations with 22 several big box stores, and they do roof sweep and

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 255 1 they were saying 15. So I don't -- I'm not, I don't 2 know about your data. I'm just saying these people 3 are reputable for me. So no matter what, 15 is less 4 than 20, which is -- your argument is these are too 5 high. How much? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: At least 20 percent. 7 MR. DeLASKI: For a portion of the 8 market. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, and you have to 10 realize in these national accounts, it's not just big 11 box retailers. It's a heck of a lot of young brands, 12 Wendy's, a heck of a lot of Walgreen's being a big, 13 big user there, you know, Walgreen's and CVS, any of 14 those kinds of things. 15 So you know, they can outweigh some of 16 these big box retailers when you start to add up 17 those numbers. Those are the roof replacements that 18 are happening every eight to 10 years. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Think the jury is still 20 out on these numbers, right, until we get the e-tran 21 (sic) data? 22 I mean, we've debated this a lot, and I

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 256 1 think it's, I think maybe we table this until we get 2 the data, which sounds imminent, right? And then see 3 what we get and then we can reopen that. Sound fair? 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Discount rates. 5 There's a comment from last week saying that there 6 was a wide disparity, and again, I looked back at 7 recent, you know, recent technical support documents 8 supporting recent rules, including commercial warm 9 air furnaces; general service; fluorescent lamps; 10 packaged terminal air conditioners; pumps; clothes 11 washers. 12 And again, you can see the numbers 13 there. The real discount rates vary from 3.6 to a 14 little over 6 percent. 15 So the 4.66 that we have on a weighted 16 average basis for CUAC definitely falls in that 17 range. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure what 18 you're actually looking at there, but when I went 19 back into the TSCs, this is what I found. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: Rusty, do you have some of 21 the residential ones in there? 22 MR. THARP: I have to open it up and

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 257 1 look at it now. According to what I was given 2 internally for commercial furnaces, ADFR 6,184, the 3 real discount rate was 8.9 percent. 4 For the commercial AC and heat pump NOPR 5 79F4 58,950, 6.2 percent; for the furnace fan rule, 6 79FR 38,131, 7.8 percent. For PTAC, 79FR 55,540 was 7 8 and a half percent. The real discount rate for the 8 driftline (sic) rule of briefing standards was 8.0 9 percent, 76FR 37,412; residential furnace NOPR, ADFR 10 13,122, 6.4 percent. 11 MR. DeBLASIS: It seems to me that you 12 should give those references to Greg since he did 13 give a different number from CBECS than you have, so 14 why is that? 15 And we should be looking at commercial 16 products, so we should look at the commercial 17 products and you start to cross-reference those 18 numbers. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. If I can just 20 get those direct references, I can check those and 21 hopefully, we can just chase this down and figure out 22 what's going on here.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 258 1 Okay. So I'm going to move on. And 2 here are the efficiency distributions in the case of 3 base case, the case about standards. 4 Again, the numbers for the first two 5 equipment classes are the same as what you saw last 6 week. I'm adding to this the very large. So again, 7 this is the, these distributions are the exact same 8 distributions we used in the proposed rule, again, 9 hoping to get data from AHRI to be able to update 10 this. 11 I also want to note that the 12 distributions for constant air volume buildings and 13 VAV buildings are different. Since the design, 14 equipment design, for the baseline, EL-0, is a 15 constant air volume design, that was not applied to 16 variable air volume buildings, so that's why you see 17 that distribution for constant air volume buildings 18 shifted down one for variable air volume buildings. 19 And again, I mean, I think we're all 20 just waiting to see what data we get from AHRI to 21 inform us on how these distributions should change. 22 But again, the numbers you'll see in the next slides

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 259 1 are based upon these distributions. 2 So here are the results for 7 and a half 3 tons. These are slightly different because of the 4 fact that the energy use was modified but not, I 5 would say, significantly different than what you saw 6 last week. 7 But yeah. I really don't know what much 8 else to say. I mean, the bouncing around of the 9 payback just has to do with the fact that, as you saw 10 for ELs 2.5, 3 and 3.5, for example, that the actual 11 energy use in 3 is greater than 2.5 and 2.5 is 12 greater than 2. So that's why those paybacks bounce 13 around like that. 14 MR. DeLASKI: Greg, this is Andrew. I 15 compared the numbers to the numbers that you shared 16 with us last week, which aren't shown here, but my -- 17 they're pretty comparable. The numbers are pretty 18 comparable to the numbers that were shared last week, 19 pretty similar, at least on the payback column that 20 and presume you would compare the other values to. 21 One thing I would note is that there is 22 a bump-up, if you go from EL-2.5 to EL-3, and that's

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 260 1 that that curb coming in. 2 Right? So if you look at the total 3 installed costs for EL-2.5 in a 7 and a half ton unit 4 and the total installed costs is 10,895 and we're 5 seeing that 80 percent of units have a $1,000 cost, 6 well, you can see what that cost is. 7 I mean, the same thing. So we go from a 8 4 and a half simple payback to a 6.9 simple payback. 9 That's a inflection point there. Well, we know what 10 the inflection point is. It's the curb. 11 And so I just want to point that out to 12 folks, and the same thing happens in the 15-ton unit. 13 That 1,750 is the cost of the conversion curb, and 14 you can see it for each of the units driving that 15 total (sic) cost up. 16 And this is a inflection point. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Just flip to the 18 15-ton slide -- 19 MR. DeBLASIS: You know, that, that 20 issue of whether to do that more complex analysis, 21 I'm just pointing it out that it does, indeed matter. 22 And that's the level the Department proposed in the

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 261 1 proposed NOPR, is the L-3. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: I want to note here, 3 too, again, I mean, looking at EL-4 and -5, we used 4 to have those diffuser replacement costs. Those are 5 now gone and as a result, those levels now look much 6 more attractive economically than they did last week. 7 MR. DeLASKI: Right. So EL-4 -- this is 8 Andrew again -- looking again -- I'm just picking a 9 simple payback because it's a simple number for me to 10 jot down in the column, dropped dramatically in EL-4 11 and EL-5. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The diffuser 13 replacement costs were significant, very significant. 14 And here are the 30-tons. Again, we 15 were only able to analyze up through efficiency level 16 3. We just didn't get the detailed engineering data 17 in time to be able to analyze it for this meeting for 18 4 and 5. We can certainly do that next time we meet. 19 So here I would just say that things 20 aren't as economically attractive as they are for the 21 7 and a half and the 15. 22 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall of PG&E.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 262 1 This raised the question for me as, can 2 we specify different efficiencies at different 3 levels? I believe we can, just like ASHRAE does. 4 I just want to make sure our single 5 metric doesn't stop that. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. No. I mean, 8 that's what we did in the proposed rule. 9 MR. HUNT: Good. More important than 10 ever. 11 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell. 12 Maybe, Marshall, were you speaking of different 13 efficiencies or different EL, selecting different EL 14 levels? I think we can do that, as well. 15 MR. HUNT: Different EL levels. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I was speaking to the 17 actual efficiency, not the EL. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Because today we 19 have different efficiencies. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. These are a lot 21 of numbers, obviously. I think probably it's best 22 that maybe you just all digest them, maybe look at

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 263 1 them overnight, come with questions tomorrow. 2 There's just a lot here. 3 So anyway, you can see how the, all the 4 additional changes for every single equipment class 5 has made an impact on at least the percent of 6 consumers with net costs. For the proposed rule, 7 there are very few consumers with net costs in the 8 case of 7 and a half tons with the exception of EL-2, 9 and now, as you get out there in higher efficiencies, 10 there are a more significant number of consumers with 11 net costs. 12 The same with 15 tons. Same with 30. 13 MR. DeLASKI: Greg, this is Andrew. Can 14 you help me make sure I understand these numbers 15 correctly? In the column percent of consumers with 16 net costs, that's just the percent at every EL. 17 They're not additive, right? 18 So for example, just being explicit 19 here, so at EL-1, 30-ton unit, so 1 percent of units 20 consumers have a net cost of EL-1, and at EL-2, it's 21 18 percent. It's not 19 percent? 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. Right.

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 264 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill with Trane. 2 Maybe I'm not understanding your 3 question right. Are you saying that 1, from going 4 level 1 to 2, then there is only a change of 18 5 percent? 6 MR. DeLASKI: I'm saying you should 7 leave that table as just as, I think that's 8 (inaudible) straightforward reading of it, which is 9 that 1, at EL-1, 1 percent of consumers have a net 10 cost and at EL-2, 18 percent have a net cost. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: If you compare the two of 12 them, it's not a difference. It's not, it's not -- 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's 17 percent more. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. Okay. 15 MR. WHITWELL: 17 points more. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Percentage points. 17 Thank you. 18 You know what, everyone -- I -- you got 19 me there. 20 MS. HOFFMAN: We have to do that more 21 often here. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess the question

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 265 1 now is, it's, I don't know, 4:30. No more? It's 2 probably a good break point rather than try to -- 3 because the shipments will be something to -- 4 MS. HOFFMAN: So we're going to formally 5 adjourn but that doesn't mean the manufacturers can 6 leave. You may want to meet. But we're going to be 7 off the record and we'll see you all tomorrow at 8:00 8 a.m. at the other building, 950 L'Enfant Plaza and 9 it's on the 7th floor in the conference room. 10 If you can't get in, then just call Ed, 11 because David will be there. 12 (Thereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the Meeting 13 Group was adjourned, to resume the following day, May 14 21 at 8:00 a.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Meeting May 20, 2015

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, LU ANNE DAWSON KIRKLAND, Court 4 Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages 5 were taken by me in stenotype and thereafter reduced 6 to computerized transcription by me; that the 7 foregoing is a true and correct record of the 8 proceedings; that I am neither counsel for, related 9 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action 10 and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of 11 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties 12 thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in 13 the outcome of the action. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 LU ANNE DAWSON KIRKLAND Court Reporter 

## 266

202-220-4158 

### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.co1n

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A a.m 4:2 30:14

30:15 50:2,3 117:17 118:15 235:6 235:7 265:8 265:14 ability39:5

206:21 able43:14

56:22,22 121:8,12 148:6 186:20 187:2 223:2 226:4 249:1 258:9 261:15 261:17 above 112:17

146:3 190:8 209:17 228:3 235:18 absolutely

78:7 169:21 173:1 185:11 185:12 AC8:9 28:15

42:12 257:4 accept 177:3

178:18 181:4 189:11 239:14 acceptable

45:15 238:18 Accepted

240:4 accepting

226:17 accessories

209:18 210:8 accommodate

203:6 238:10 accommoda...

214:9 according 133:4 230:7 257:1 account 13:11

158:8,17 177:5 254:8 accounts

253:15,19,19 255:10 accurate 83:6

181:7 196:7 ACEEE5:10 achieve 15:18

26:14 achieving 14:9

15:16 acidic23:8 acids23:13,18 across27:6

29:9 38:4 60:10 77:2 112:2 129:15 130:19 165:4 169:6 170:17 172:10,22 175:10 193:3 207:9 226:6 230:1 232:15 acted 125:22

127:3 action 92:16

266:9,13 active238:6 actual 51:12

82:22 106:3 142:9 198:11 203:19 205:14 222:9 259:10 262:17 actually4:6

12:17 13:22 17:16 20:12 21:16 22:1,3 23:15 31:21 34:14 40:19 55:16 61:18 63:6 68:6 77:19 79:9 79:15,19 81:21 82:1 82:21 83:9 127:2 134:2 139:11 143:5 144:1 147:10 148:5,5 162:6 166:22 168:5 172:16 184:9,10 201:11 204:8 205:16 215:5 218:22 219:9 236:6 243:12 244:21 245:4 245:12 250:3 256:18 Adam2:10 7:5

8:12 10:22 18:7 19:18 19:22 26:5 31:15,17 adapted 78:2 adapter43:21

75:4 77:11 83:20 84:22 90:1 91:8 98:13,19 99:16 100:1 100:5 105:21 106:21 160:6 210:12 adapters 75:7

75:22 76:2 80:22 92:14 219:11,15 adaptor84:2

90:20 96:2,7 97:11 99:21 adaptors 43:21 44:1,5 86:4 add 25:13

74:12 126:11 127:9 152:1 152:20 203:21 204:3 206:10 209:19 210:9 218:7,9 255:16 added 89:16

89:17 129:14 143:17 195:14 210:8 210:8,12 218:6 adding 51:19

114:18 147:11,16 201:20 202:12 247:11,17 258:6 addition 12:2 additional

19:21 31:3 36:16 44:3 48:22 51:6 56:17 57:7 163:21 253:6 263:4 additions

218:6 additive

263:17 address42:2

184:7 addressed

80:14 adds 145:13

209:17 ADFR257:2,9 adjourn 117:1 188:2 265:5 adjourned

127:14 265:13 adjust77:13

78:4 148:17 148:19 212:6 adjusted

111:19 251:6 adjusting

69:18 160:12 adjustment

51:20,22 80:10 111:17 226:20,21 227:3,5 adjustments

78:20 221:7 ADL 139:12,17 administer

134:7 admit 163:16 adopt 126:16 adopted 122:3

126:19 advanced 39:6

118:3 advantage

65:16 67:4 advantageous

148:4 advantages

93:2 advice9:4

231:19 advisors38:18 advocate34:8 advocates

122:7 advocating

169:3 affect55:12

105:6 198:21 198:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 206:20 209:9 209:13 affecting

170:19,20 171:8 210:3 affects 15:17

68:21 197:11 afford 56:15 afraid 70:8 after32:9 40:7

40:12,22 43:14 128:4 151:2 190:7 190:14 199:21 226:11 afternoon

97:17 AFUE 14:6 again 16:12

17:18 21:2 27:15,20 28:13,20 29:2,6,8 30:22 36:8 40:18,21 58:17 67:15 77:6 83:7 104:7 111:9 112:8,11,14 112:20 113:1 113:7,10,21 119:9 123:10 123:11 129:20 130:2 130:12 131:9 132:21,22 134:7 143:12 149:17 157:15 159:9 159:11 161:10,17 163:5,6,9 164:4 167:19 168:15 171:20 172:4 172:22 173:6 175:2,3,8 176:4,11,16 176:19 177:14 182:4 184:17 189:2 189:19,20 191:18,19 192:20 193:1 199:5,7,12 200:5,11,12 200:14,17,19 201:4,10,18 201:22 202:4 202:6,12 203:3 210:3 210:10 223:5 223:16 224:17 225:2 230:2,16 233:2 238:13 241:15 242:1 242:1 246:8 246:14,17 247:10,16,18 247:21 248:21 250:11 251:22 256:6 256:12 258:4 258:6,8,19 258:22 261:3 261:8,8,14 against 186:11 agenda8:10

119:20 120:2 120:3 aggregate

165:6 aggressive

243:15 ago 122:13 180:14 agree22:2

34:15 42:7 94:8 135:10 135:15,16 150:6,8 179:10 182:1 212:20 213:1 237:9,9 249:14,15 agreeable

239:7 240:3 agreed 154:5

164:15 agreeing

125:1 agreement

122:4,4 123:5,11 138:5,6 Aha91:6 ahead 154:22

187:9 207:18 232:17 250:20 AHRI 15:15,19

16:12 53:6 54:2 67:3 108:16 191:18 194:15,16 197:1,2 198:7,11 249:1,15 258:9,20 air4:15 5:5

23:18 27:4 29:17 33:22 38:6 39:22 41:17 42:17 42:20 51:15 52:2,7,8,19 52:21 53:12 53:19 54:6,7 54:10 55:17 57:13 59:7,9 60:5 62:17 63:4,16 64:1 64:7,21,21 65:8,21 66:1 66:1,13 68:6 71:1,18 74:6 74:8 82:1 110:11,11 111:1 122:1 122:2 128:5 128:7 129:11 130:8 133:15 134:13,17,18 134:21 135:1 135:2,18 161:3,4 162:19 163:8 163:8 190:10 190:10,13,13 190:19,20 199:14,15,17 199:17,18,19 199:20,22 200:15,22 201:2,2 238:9,10,12 238:18,19,20 238:22 241:4 241:6,9,20 241:22 242:3 242:3 243:3 243:9,13 244:3,10,13 244:19,21 245:1,13,22 246:4,9,16 246:17 247:5 256:9,10 258:12,15,16 258:17,18 air-conditio...

28:7 75:2 128:14 135:21 all 4:11 7:13

8:12,22 9:8 9:22 12:7 13:22 20:14 29:10,16 31:22 38:4 38:18 43:6,8 43:9 44:18 44:19 49:10 52:4 53:13 54:7 55:9 58:7 60:1,17 60:19 61:20 62:1,2 66:20 67:21 68:16 68:17 69:19 70:3 72:17 73:16,20 74:13 75:22 76:2,3,7,8,11 78:8,19 79:6 82:19 84:12 84:20,22 85:3 88:4,18 93:9 96:4,4 98:22 99:6 101:1 106:3 112:2,16 116:3,3,9,9 116:15 117:13 118:5 121:8,10 122:8 123:17 123:20 130:18 131:2 135:17 139:4 139:5,12 148:16,17 150:22 152:14,15 153:7,21 156:9 157:17

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 158:17 163:3 165:13 167:6 168:8 169:3 173:5 176:8 181:19,20 182:4 186:12 186:20 190:7 190:9,9,16 193:22 196:16 197:5 199:21,22 205:16,16 206:10 207:8 211:3,18 214:7,15 218:5 219:2 219:10,12,22 223:1,11 226:3 227:1 228:3 230:5 230:13,13 231:3 232:11 235:18 237:2 237:4 238:13 242:18 246:7 246:9,10,22 250:15,22 254:7,12 258:19 262:22 263:3 265:7 Alliance5:7 Allied5:4 28:9

94:8 105:11 154:8 allow58:16

77:4 110:10 allowed 143:9 almost32:19

39:5 64:2 77:16 104:21 116:3 142:4 165:18 227:7 along 189:15 194:2 235:8 239:3 alpha 149:11 already 10:18

30:5 46:8 48:1,19 158:19 189:12 198:20 226:2 242:15 also4:9,10

6:12 13:11 13:17 20:22 24:18 26:15 26:19 27:4 32:14 41:3,4 44:2,11 45:10 52:12 59:11 64:1 69:20 81:20 82:22 83:15 83:18 86:6 97:5,13 98:3 99:3 104:11 112:21 116:12 123:6 124:10 141:20 142:22 145:3 145:8 161:8 174:16 183:1 193:17 198:17 199:4 206:19 207:4 209:3 214:2 219:9 222:3 222:6,19 231:21 239:14 243:3 247:21 249:16 258:11 altered 26:14 although 19:5 36:13 78:3 110:6 aluminized

12:6,9,12 13:10 20:9 24:4,12 always40:4

93:18 106:15 107:10 144:14 177:14 186:22 226:13 245:5 am 7:8 9:22

18:18 59:22 251:10 266:8 266:10 ambient51:17

71:5 73:6,12 73:19 74:17 ambitious

101:8 America4:16 American

240:5 among 35:15

214:15 amongst

226:4 amount 15:18

60:16 171:8 171:11 175:16 180:22 197:6 229:14,18 amounts72:1 analogy39:14

155:3 analyses

43:13 46:6 73:11 88:9 140:13 141:5 analysis9:17

11:4,6,17,22 13:8 24:2 28:10 31:4,9 31:10 36:11 36:16 37:17 38:4 40:1 41:18 42:3 42:21 43:9 43:17 44:6 45:11 60:1 61:14 63:12 63:20 65:7 69:21,22 75:1 89:10 90:6,10,12 90:17 96:6 97:10 98:5 101:14,17 109:11,20 120:7 131:10 133:11 134:8 135:7,20 141:2 142:18 143:3,9,18 144:12 145:8 148:6 150:8 150:11 154:6 160:7 164:19 174:21 175:21 177:3 177:7 178:2 178:3,11,15 179:11,16,20 180:12 182:14 183:17 184:10 186:2 186:13,19 189:18,21 190:5 191:3 194:3 197:12 198:1 199:9 201:17 231:22 232:9 237:2,4 239:5,16 252:21 260:20 analysts 130:5

179:17 182:5 analytic 154:4 analytically

37:15 82:20 analyze

197:16 200:20 261:15,17 analyzed

113:6 200:9 235:15 Andrew2:13

7:7 21:2 22:2 23:20 80:8 99:11 119:18 126:11 152:15 154:7 157:15 158:14 232:18 239:20 250:1 259:14 261:8 263:13 Andrew's

150:21 Andy18:16 animal 162:20 ANNE266:3

266:17 annual 170:1

177:4 another22:19

40:22 79:11 104:16 105:20 140:19 148:21 150:14 167:1 177:6 191:18 205:15

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 206:15 209:2 212:20 221:16 230:16 232:19 251:18 252:6 answer 9:11

10:9,10,17 10:18 32:11 34:2,4,13 35:4 45:17 126:8 128:2 149:1 158:13 176:10 193:3 208:8 209:16 215:3 251:11 answered

72:11 answering

24:21 128:6 answers 8:21

9:7 35:18 121:15 138:14 209:7 210:5 220:14 230:22 252:1 anybody72:12

109:15 anybody's

76:5 Anyhow9:4 anymore87:11 anyone31:3

127:9 128:19 137:3 anything9:19

10:3 33:13 45:15 72:13 101:18,19 127:10 172:21 180:2 184:2 185:10 204:7 210:3 218:1 225:4 anyway 146:13 148:15 187:22 263:3 anywhere

135:9 168:21 169:10 APA185:4,12 apologize9:13 appeal 89:3 appear 10:9 appearance

254:9 appearances

2:1 3:2 254:11 appears 50:8

105:17 appliance

123:8,9 124:13 applicable

81:17 application

134:6 applied 104:6

112:4 175:21 175:22 190:7 190:9,16 199:14 200:1 201:5,8,14 235:17,18 237:1,3,11 238:12 241:18,19 247:13 258:15 applies27:16

45:14 162:2 199:4 apply 168:16

177:16 196:16 199:18 applying 142:18 appreciate

206:7 approach 44:4

84:8 111:13 113:3 134:6 146:13,14,15 147:7 148:7 148:16 173:13 193:6 239:20 approaching

215:22 appropriate

197:3 202:10 239:10,17 approximate

163:2,4 approximately

52:4,12 arbitrary

167:15 area 11:21

12:2 20:21 26:19 95:9 97:4 99:5 103:15,21 106:4,9 222:20 249:19 areas 106:3

133:8 aren't61:15,15

132:17 259:16 261:20 argue81:6,20

205:18 253:17 argument

255:4 arms 60:19 around 4:7

17:10,11 29:4 39:20 44:19 45:13 78:9 125:6 127:5 130:14 138:20 151:1 174:6 181:19 203:16 204:12 213:12 235:4 236:1 253:18 259:8,13 arrived 123:16 arrow 142:13 ASHRAE

38:22 54:16 70:18 86:14 156:17 186:11 238:8 249:12 262:3 aside225:1,3 ask7:16 14:11

72:17 79:16 80:20 87:2 109:10 150:3 191:3,8 194:11 204:14 205:22 208:9 214:4 220:12 222:7 224:15 225:5,17 231:3 asked 8:14

9:18 10:8 22:16 35:17 72:10 104:19 109:9 124:5 193:2 206:14 239:20 251:22 asking 4:10

47:21,22 56:4 136:22 225:2 231:7 aspect84:14 93:15 aspects

158:18 ASRAC1:2 assembled

79:6 assessed

113:16 assessment

96:19 assign 165:1 associate

155:15 245:20 associated

57:8 97:13 109:16 131:11 145:7 146:1 168:17 association

123:9 assume 8:16

9:8 12:1 31:12 71:1,4 116:19 144:3 161:5 162:2 162:22 166:13 171:11 assumed

11:22 13:7,9 39:4 94:17 98:5 131:6 147:14 203:1 218:5 244:19 247:22 250:15 251:4 251:17 assumes 24:2 assuming 7:8

12:6 65:15 71:14 74:5 76:16 96:1

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 97:20 98:17 161:14 183:3 213:16,19 246:18 assumption

11:20 12:11 20:10 68:14 95:18 97:11 98:8 106:15 128:13 173:8 203:4 219:18 225:14 238:21 241:16 243:15 246:9 246:13 assumptions

171:17 179:17 asterisks

47:12 attainments

26:13 attempt97:8 ATTENDEE

3:19 attentive 101:1 attorney

266:11 attractive

261:6,20 audible231:13 authority

30:13 126:1 126:16 automatically

93:20 automobile

93:22 AV53:11 availability

16:13 available

22:22 49:3,8 66:18 110:19 184:17 185:7 200:20 Avenue 1:14 average 14:7,7

17:4,12 18:20 31:8 31:18 32:5 35:21,22 36:12 76:12 76:15 111:14 128:10,12 130:3 131:1 139:20 140:11 169:9 174:1 188:16 204:12 205:15 217:9 217:10 252:6 256:16 averaged

76:11 188:18 205:16 averages

35:13 192:17 avoid23:5 aware 93:1 away45:17

72:17 96:21 130:10 157:11 160:6 164:12 178:8 186:15 207:2 234:7,9 245:18 axis 105:13 B B 75:20 82:18

94:14,14 95:20,22 96:3,21 back7:8 14:18

17:3 30:16 30:17 31:6 31:14 32:8 32:16,20 33:20 35:19 38:14 40:2 40:22 42:14 46:10,13,17 47:8 49:21 50:4,5,11 53:6 61:4 67:17 68:8 70:4 73:2,5 74:13,20 88:16,17 99:10 100:21 109:12 115:5 115:6 117:2 117:10,10 119:9 127:13 136:1 142:15 151:5 152:8 153:4 161:15 173:17 181:10 183:17 187:16,22 188:6,7,15 190:18 192:11,15 193:2 195:6 196:10 204:14 205:12 210:10 213:10 216:14 219:12 223:6 226:1 229:21 231:20 238:2 240:11,20 242:11 245:12 250:13 256:6 256:19 back-and-fo... 43:18 backed 141:12 background

238:14 backhanded

39:7 backing

240:19 bad 69:4 78:6

83:18,20 badge 118:7

118:10 ballpark 174:7

224:21 Bantle2:3

5:19,19 6:11 48:13 49:1 49:16,20 80:15 177:8 bar98:20

99:14 100:8 104:20 105:1 105:6,10 107:2 177:15 177:16 Barkas2:2 4:4 barn 48:20

49:11 base 13:12

15:13 24:11 26:14 27:17 28:3,14 35:8 80:5,11 94:12 95:9 95:12 97:4 99:5,18 103:1,3,15 106:3 134:8 144:18 151:16,17 170:10,14 176:15 228:2 228:14 258:3 based 13:16 15:14 16:12 19:20 25:6 33:12 36:1 38:21 52:22 53:2 66:17 74:17 81:7 93:22 110:1 110:18 113:5 113:11 122:11 130:7 131:3 134:9 148:3 163:7 164:17 188:15 190:22 196:5 197:13 200:8 207:15 212:10 216:13 217:5 220:7 223:8 227:8 228:3 228:8,15 231:11 235:13 236:2 239:13 242:1 245:16 251:7 252:4 259:1 baseline31:22

51:15 52:2 80:14 87:16 87:17,22 88:14,15 89:1 91:2 97:6 99:17 107:2 112:14 112:17 113:14,17 131:7 147:19 148:19 199:13 201:1 201:1 204:2 213:13 216:6 216:20

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 227:18,21 228:21 258:14 baselines

148:17 basic 67:5

149:9 basically

11:18 14:13 14:17 36:12 48:3 74:16 90:13 98:10 106:14 109:19 110:8 110:16 113:4 151:14 169:14 193:13 197:21 238:11 basis 149:8

176:21 256:16 Battaglia7:3,3

111:9,10 112:11 113:9 113:14 114:14 115:1 115:9,14,17 116:18 bear50:15 bed 42:3 beds 116:4 Beef 136:20 before 14:6

18:19 32:1 35:6 45:21 49:9 101:4,5 119:4,4,8 122:10 123:21 127:7 127:19 133:16 135:22 173:17 174:19 189:20 238:22 240:20 243:4 247:1 251:16 beginning

182:7 behalf205:1 behavior

172:10 behind 8:22

153:12 being 13:16,18

17:8 28:7 33:12 36:10 56:22 63:15 63:21 65:1 107:1 115:21 121:8 123:22 134:11 136:22 149:6 154:19 176:9 180:16 183:20 202:20 203:8 207:19 224:10 236:20 241:18,18 243:14 251:9 255:12 263:18 belabor 153:3 believe6:1

29:3 37:18 46:7 85:2 86:11 117:18 119:1 130:14 130:17 198:7 210:17 232:12 241:5 243:9 262:3 below 130:13 166:7,10 167:13,20 169:22 221:22 238:22 243:4 243:8 belt 11:11

118:13 benefit 14:9

15:17 18:10 18:15 230:17 benefits 17:19

17:21 24:8 82:1 benefitting

14:14,14,15 Berkeley6:21

74:14 besides 15:9 best8:19 9:4

50:19 163:2 179:19 180:3 180:18 262:21 bet211:9 better21:17

79:16 88:8 88:10 97:9 142:8 154:1 156:12 170:15 179:17 181:3 198:14 218:1 221:8 254:6 between 4:20

32:20,22 35:15 54:10 73:17 91:15 92:2 98:20 102:12,14 104:22 107:2 114:22 122:6 123:6 124:11 148:19 155:9 163:10,18 171:9 174:2 181:12 184:5 184:6 186:11 206:11 214:22 219:15 232:13 beyond9:12

36:4 150:3 200:6 bid 224:21 bids222:16

223:15 big 10:13

18:19 25:22 26:15 27:20 29:6 96:18 115:21 132:3 132:4 133:7 140:12 162:12 169:6 188:5 190:17 207:11 212:19 213:17 222:15,20 230:21 231:1 231:4 234:21 235:12 247:18 253:4 254:22 255:10,12,13 255:16 bigger68:22

78:4,9 94:11 115:13 116:16 133:12 139:18 207:2 215:21 216:4 216:7 217:1 biggest 131:21

206:16 bill 158:9 bins 164:20

165:2,5 195:11 bit9:16 32:19

36:20 44:17 55:8 56:15 61:3,4 67:15 68:6 69:2,15 73:8 74:6 75:13 78:3,5 82:1,12 90:15 92:18 97:10 98:19 103:16 105:14 133:9 135:14 137:21 139:17,19 142:15 147:2 155:19 157:10 166:15 171:16,16 175:19 176:7 182:6 200:18 202:18 205:20 229:20 240:19 243:14 245:4 251:21 blank8:2

11:22 blown 253:5 blue 166:7,8

166:12 168:7 board 111:19

130:19 169:6 172:22 226:6 Bob4:18

22:14 23:21 33:6 53:14 57:15 58:18

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 88:12 101:11 102:18 110:21 112:3 113:22 117:10 135:22 152:3 155:1 185:13 215:3 240:9 240:10 262:11 Bob's36:3 boiler 125:12

132:13 boilers 126:13

126:14,16 bolded 13:5

190:3 boldly 196:6 BOMA249:10

249:10 book202:18 booklet75:21

76:12,21 77:17 78:21 78:22 82:19 boom 207:3

223:2 BOOTMAN

133:2 bosses 121:11 both 53:16

87:17 101:7 125:15 137:11 139:22 201:8 201:12 214:8 232:22 bother 178:18 bothers 153:5

153:10 bottom 34:5

34:12 43:22 129:13,15 152:19 165:20 bounce259:12 bouncing

259:8 bound 124:6

171:21 173:6 180:4 bounds 185:9 box250:15

254:22 255:11,16 boxes57:8,12

59:8 161:5 245:15 bracket230:9 brain 125:8 brainer251:1 brand 76:1,4

77:3,10,10 77:17,18 brands77:5

255:11 breadth

179:22 break30:10,11

30:12 46:22 49:2 100:14 100:21 117:13 187:14,16,16 195:22 227:15 252:22 265:2 breakdown

27:10 breaking

185:12 briefing 257:8 briefly 175:2 bright39:2 bring 8:5 82:8

117:21 118:1 135:2 138:1 138:2,2 197:7 bringing

133:14 137:10 broadly 126:3 bros 12:3 brought37:21

42:1 82:10 bucks204:3

204:12 229:19 budget225:6 build 182:7 building 1:12

40:1,3,8,14 40:18,19,20 41:4,11 42:1 57:7 74:15 77:4 100:5 131:19 132:4 141:3,12 142:10 143:4 143:21 145:13,21,22 161:1,18 163:4,8,9 165:6,7,9,16 166:16,19 167:21 168:3 174:10,14 175:5 176:1 176:5 184:16 199:10,19,20 200:2 206:22 207:2 209:22 222:21 223:1 225:5 234:1 234:5,9,22 240:16,22 241:3,13,16 242:7,13 243:7 244:1 244:3 246:16 254:1,6 265:8 buildings

33:10,14 40:5 142:6 161:3,5,7 168:17 174:3 174:8,11 175:6 180:20 190:1,9,13 190:14,16,20 199:15 200:4 200:15 201:6 201:6,9 242:18 246:4 246:6,10,11 258:12,13,16 258:17,18 bulb37:4

164:20 165:1 bulbs37:5 bulk 13:9 bullet238:14 bullets 91:9

95:21 bump89:22

92:7 bump-up

259:22 bunch 16:4

35:16 225:15 225:22 business 8:6

254:12 button236:7 buy62:21 64:6

66:6 253:21 buying61:18

66:11,15 248:12 250:21 253:20 254:15,16 C C4:1 21:17 22:1 cabinet60:5,8

93:21 104:14 112:3,5 113:15,18 calculate

165:3 calculated

82:20 113:10 calculation

45:8,9 51:19 70:5 73:7 82:21 88:1,8 110:1,8 175:13 calculations

73:5 82:19 110:12 calculator

232:1 calibration

192:21 California5:3

159:8,15 166:6 177:2 239:12 call 75:6 99:20

119:4 227:17 265:10 called 120:2,3

124:17 142:2 159:15 calling 75:5

168:10 came35:18

73:2 90:10 90:13 98:10 193:2 206:18 206:19 240:20 Canada24:16 capabilities

97:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 capable 160:3 capacities

95:1 98:8,9 capacity73:12

73:15,18 74:10 89:16 94:14,15,20 104:13 110:9 163:10 191:7 207:22 208:1 209:3 210:5 211:13 213:21 227:12 capture230:6 captured

129:7,10 captures

157:16 capturing

80:11 100:7 100:8 129:6 156:2,5 157:15 card 4:19 care211:18

228:4 229:22 230:10,14 cares230:10 Carlos 179:21 carried 36:10

36:15 37:10 Carrier4:19

22:15 33:7 53:15 57:16 65:12,13 66:7,10 77:9 77:12,12 88:13 101:12 110:21 114:1 185:14 case 10:12

13:13 15:13 16:18 26:14 27:18 28:3,3 28:14,14 35:8 71:6 80:11 83:19 87:17 88:17 99:18 104:14 114:12 123:12 124:7 124:14 126:1 126:4,12 144:18 147:22 151:16,17 176:15 178:5 184:11 185:21 225:9 225:10 238:7 241:5 258:2 258:3,3 263:8 cases 58:15

81:20 103:17 176:16 188:17 casing 92:7 catalog 64:14 catch 219:2 category60:11

102:10 caucus233:3

233:18 cause64:10

218:19 causes23:18 CAV52:14

55:15 56:8 61:17,19 67:13,15,21 68:8 69:6 112:15 114:15 145:5 201:5,8 214:12 228:12 240:16,21 241:2,13,16 242:7,18 243:6 244:1 244:3 CAVs68:9

114:13 242:19 CBECS 132:22

133:4 165:7 168:17 172:5 196:14 257:13 cell 121:14 census 165:21

198:9 Center 166:3

254:21 central 122:1,2

162:7,19 166:1,1,4,4 certain 13:13

21:10 93:17 131:11 142:6 171:11 180:22 186:19 197:6 225:7 certainly47:3

57:17 60:18 76:20 88:7 88:10 90:22 106:19 109:12,16 113:21 114:3 125:12 132:3 132:6 214:10 225:9 229:11 261:18 CERTIFICATE

266:1 certification

67:2,3,7 certify266:4 cetera 144:18 144:18 166:3 209:11 CFM 76:16 chain 121:13 Challenge

159:16 chance 159:9

213:6 change 11:21

14:5 15:9 17:19 18:19 26:9,9 27:20 28:2 42:13 64:21 65:13 71:19 81:1 86:14 92:6 96:14,17 114:16 128:18,18 137:21 145:2 150:8,10,11 150:22 153:5 157:2 160:7 160:15,15,18 164:1 168:12 170:1,16 171:18 172:10 175:10,17 176:12 181:11,21 190:3,17 199:5 203:1 209:10 218:18,20 219:8,12 220:4,5 221:12 230:22 231:5 231:10 235:12 239:1 239:7 245:15 247:18 258:21 264:4 changed 12:1

15:14 18:14 27:15,18 47:10 112:12 144:10 219:7 243:19 changes 13:20

15:9 26:11 39:21 43:2 81:13 94:2 105:13,14 139:16,17 141:7 144:11 150:3 158:2 160:8 164:6 164:8 178:19 191:16 200:12 248:20 263:4 changing 35:9

86:3 160:14 175:19 180:12 198:18 220:1 channel 93:1,9

93:14,15,19 94:10 characteristi...

59:20 characterized

137:19 Charlie2:17

4:14,15 186:7 chart 100:8

170:9 172:21 178:5 189:19 190:2 211:4 212:1,7 224:8 246:20 charts 92:12

99:14 104:20 105:1,6,10

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 107:3 chase257:21 chassis 86:9

96:22 103:10 103:15 cheaper212:1

212:5 213:1 check49:2,20

70:3 100:13 100:15 117:18 120:12 198:1 232:17 257:20 check-in 118:4 checked 73:1

73:4 checks 82:22 Chevron

189:19 chew37:20 chilled 162:7 choice65:17

66:17 67:1 176:2 choices 67:8 choose22:19

22:19 24:15 24:17 58:15 98:11 chooses 61:17 choosing

56:20 57:1 230:1 chose58:22 chosen 95:8

194:6 clarification

221:21 clarify 138:19 class 58:21

59:16 60:14 89:14 90:7,7 90:8 92:6 99:2,3,4 134:2 135:9 263:4 classes 37:19

38:4,6,8,10 90:11,14 94:22 133:12 133:21 134:9 138:7 191:7 258:5 clean 141:8 clear58:14

102:4 166:21 193:21 227:3 Clearly9:20 climates41:14 clock 117:10

251:14 close41:21

69:16 70:8 110:1,7 144:21 189:3 205:17 217:9 222:22 223:12 236:7 236:9,10 249:9 closely26:7

202:18 closer52:13

102:12 173:4 225:21 244:22 clot 168:3 clothes 122:20

123:11,12 256:10 coal 140:15 coast205:10 coasting 71:22 coefficient

142:16,19 coil 93:2,5

162:8 coils57:22 162:14 215:11 cold 133:15

166:8 245:3 colder24:16

41:14 71:17 collected

194:21 235:14 collecting 54:2 collectively

60:21 colors 15:2 column 17:21

68:3 75:15 151:9 228:10 259:19 261:10 263:15 combination

24:3 60:14 combine 141:3 combustion

23:13,18 come48:8

49:21 60:12 86:18 100:21 109:12 117:1 117:2 119:5 127:4 130:6 149:17 167:8 185:17 187:16,20 189:22 226:1 226:3 231:2 263:1 comes 38:5

124:22 125:13 148:1 183:15 245:1 comfort254:9 comfortable

50:13 81:16 180:6 187:7 coming 10:9

68:15 71:15 71:15 149:19 161:15 192:20 229:21 236:22 260:1 command

121:13 comment95:3

134:5 161:19 185:2 194:19 195:7 213:10 256:5 commentary

97:17 commented

141:17 comments

112:10 121:2 183:7 203:14 251:7 commercial

8:9 11:3 29:16 33:22 76:10,17 104:4 127:20 128:5,7,14 135:18 185:16 198:7 256:8 257:2 257:4,15,16 commercials

88:5 commission...

214:8 229:6 committee

70:19 153:17 174:20 committees

38:22 communicat...

185:6 companies 108:15 Company

151:4 comparable

84:12,13 112:7 259:17 259:18 compare

55:22 58:6 63:21 68:3 73:9 112:5 155:20 186:12 259:20 264:11 compared

47:10 56:8 68:10 259:15 compares

173:20 comparing

105:12 174:9 comparison

52:13 173:22 186:10 250:22 compass

234:4 competitive

101:14 competitor's

88:20 competitors'

62:6 complete8:7

43:7 184:3 completed

43:12 completely

35:8 87:5 105:16 157:21 167:13 225:4

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 complex

135:16 148:6 229:17 260:20 complexity

61:12 229:12 complicated

61:4 133:10 compliment

39:8 comply9:8 component

26:15 45:7 46:5 48:4 51:8 147:11 components

51:18 69:10 164:9 compression

244:15 compressor

73:13,16 74:10 109:22 111:4 155:7 155:8 159:22 172:17 191:13 243:12 247:4 247:5,7,16 247:20 248:1 248:7,11 250:1,2,4,6 250:21 251:4 251:14,18 252:18 253:5 253:6 compressors

110:5,16,18 215:12,13 218:6 244:16 248:9 252:19 253:1 computer

82:20 118:13 computerized 266:6 concentrated

131:18 concept70:18 concern 48:22

153:22 169:5 197:10 207:11 concerned

48:7 150:16 150:17 concur236:6 condensation

21:9 23:2,14 24:20 25:5 condenser

74:5 142:16 142:19 159:18,19 condensing

23:11 condensive

61:8 condition

158:1,1,7 conditioner

40:1 41:17 122:1 129:12 130:9 conditioners

122:2 256:10 conditioning

4:16 42:18 42:20 conditions

71:1,5,13,18 83:22 conducted

44:3 90:12 conduction

23:5 conference

118:22 265:9 confidence 211:22 confirmed

219:18,19 confirming

214:11 conflict33:18 conflicts33:17 confusing

63:8 confusion

64:11 Congress

125:12 127:3 connected

84:4 connections

210:16 224:4 consensus

122:4,11 149:22 182:10 conservation

158:16 conservative

180:17 conservativ...

67:8 consider

54:21 91:1 115:12 174:11 209:6 consideration

182:15 191:2 231:17 considered

51:13 90:21 165:3 179:12 considering

96:2 112:1 115:14 consistency

204:9 consistent 17:8 28:6 40:21 72:21 110:3 176:19 178:15 consistently

35:18 consolidated

116:7,9,13 consolidation

87:6 constant

51:15 52:2,7 52:8,15 55:17 57:13 59:7,9 60:4 62:17 63:4 64:1,7,20 65:8,20 66:13 67:6 68:5 131:7 161:2 163:8 190:10,13,19 199:13,14,17 199:18,19 200:14,22 201:2 202:1 214:6 238:9 238:18 245:13 246:4 246:9,16 258:12,15,17 constructed

12:13,16 construction

98:18 100:4 100:9 147:11 209:16 232:1 235:20 236:2 consult20:22

233:3 Consulting 7:2

42:20 consumer

62:21 63:7 158:9 189:22 consumers

263:6,7,10 263:15,20 264:9 consumption

142:13 143:1 143:13 145:7 145:11 153:9 153:14 154:2 155:16,22 168:8,9 172:8 175:16 177:4 context 159:14

223:17 contingencies

225:8 continue9:9

149:3 157:17 CONTINUED

3:2 continuing

159:22 160:1 continuous

61:13 continuously

54:6 continuum

61:13 contractor

66:6 218:7 224:22 contractors

4:16 6:16 18:4 35:17 36:1 183:21 184:6 185:7 204:6 225:3 contrast 14:20 contribution

170:21 control 39:2

55:13 111:19

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 114:16 229:8 controls

111:18 115:1 convenient

218:18 convention

145:9 conventional

19:11 converge

149:12 converging

149:10,13,14 conversation

38:17 193:20 195:10,15 conversations

254:21 conversion

44:6 75:5 76:8,9 77:3 78:10,15 106:13,15 108:1 145:10 145:12 147:12,14 157:20 158:3 191:5 200:5 201:10,14 221:13 235:10,13,15 235:21 236:21 260:13 conversions

77:8 convert 165:8 conveyor

118:13 convinced

173:5 cool 169:22

182:16 cooled 173:19 cooler74:8 167:5 cooling 23:3

141:14,19,21 142:1,2 144:4 153:15 156:13 159:16,19 161:13,13 164:7 166:2 166:9,17 167:12,22 169:15 170:19 171:13,14 172:13 173:18 174:15 254:20 copies 7:14,22

72:5 corporate

254:11 correct 16:6,6

19:17 20:20 63:19 77:15 90:15 99:22 102:17 111:3 115:9 117:20 144:16 147:21 153:1 167:10 171:17 195:2 222:1 232:3 234:9 237:6 237:7 242:14 246:18 250:5 263:22 266:7 corrected

159:2 correction

167:8 correctly

35:12 263:15 correlated 106:6 correlates

106:13 193:5 correlation

69:21 73:16 74:3,10 102:6,14 106:6,8 218:15 correlations

45:10 70:22 73:22 74:15 74:18 110:15 110:17 correspondi...

108:9 corrosion 23:5

23:6 cost 14:10,13

14:16 15:8,8 15:9,16 18:19,21 19:1 25:14 25:15,21 26:7 27:14 31:9,11,14 31:19 32:5 32:20,22 33:2,10,15 36:11 39:2 44:11 84:11 84:13 87:16 97:13 111:11 112:13,19 128:10,12,15 128:15 141:4 189:17,20 190:4 199:11 202:6,12,16 202:17,18,19 204:17,18,21 205:2 206:16 207:20,21 209:10,13,17 209:20 210:12,18 211:8 217:16 218:10 227:9 227:11 228:22 235:15 236:11 243:11 248:10 249:20 250:1 251:1 260:5 260:6,13,15 263:20 264:10,10 costs 12:21

14:15 15:11 15:12 26:5 26:16 32:22 39:3 64:7 75:3,11 100:19 101:5 111:7,18 112:6,6,8 113:2,4,9,11 115:6 128:12 131:10 191:5 191:11,12 203:1,5,14 204:7,9 206:14,20,20 210:8,9,15 213:20 216:2 221:13,22,22 222:3,6,11 222:13,15,17 224:7,8 226:11 227:17 229:6 238:1,4 239:4,15 247:17 253:9 260:3,4 261:4,13 263:6,7,11 263:16 Coughlin 2:9

6:20,20 135:19 140:22 145:20 146:7 146:10,17,22 147:9,21 151:7,11,13 152:2,5,9,12 152:21 154:21 157:1 157:19 159:4 160:17 164:4 169:16 170:18 171:20 172:20 173:9 174:5,18 198:15 Council 5:14 counsel 5:16

266:8,11 count36:22

37:2 252:20 counting

111:19 country40:8

168:19 207:8 couple 11:3

13:5 41:22 119:10 121:2 121:18 131:19 188:8 188:18 193:3 203:13 232:18 237:17 coupled 74:15 course29:10

66:9 106:7 131:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 143:17 170:3 182:3 210:2 court4:11

266:1,3,17 cover225:7

233:12 covered 55:6

109:18 128:13 covers74:22 crafty66:5 crane202:17

202:19 203:1 206:19,19,20 206:21 207:3 208:16,17 209:11,21 210:3 221:22 222:3,5,11 222:15,17 223:1 224:7 224:8 225:16 253:9 cranes202:20

222:21 cranes' 226:2 crank222:21

230:16,17 cranked 98:10 cranking

151:1 crazy204:6 create81:22

164:19 created 69:20 creates 142:22 creating 158:1 cross 77:2

230:6 cross-76:7 cross-refere...

257:17 CUAC 17:8

38:9 40:15 40:16,18 42:10,21 129:11 189:18 256:16 CUAC/CWAF

1:2 curb43:20,21

43:22 44:5 75:4,6,22 76:2 77:11 77:14 78:1 78:10 80:10 80:21 81:17 83:20 84:22 86:4 88:21 89:2,12 90:1 90:2,3,20 91:8 92:14 93:2 96:2,7 96:13,14 97:11 98:13 98:19 99:16 99:21 100:1 100:4 105:21 106:4,9,14 106:15,20 107:10 108:1 145:11,12 146:5,16 147:8,12,14 157:9,20 158:3 160:6 179:4 180:13 191:5 200:5 201:14 219:11,15 235:10,15,21 260:1,10,13 curbs44:6

75:6 76:8,9 77:3 78:15 89:4 96:18 108:9,13 146:14 201:10 221:14 235:13 236:21 curiosity 131:2 curious31:8

80:19 82:3 173:16 current 137:20

155:4 158:11 170:5 180:18 192:14 217:6 currently

84:17 100:2 246:4 curve43:21

210:11 curves44:11

112:13 customer25:1

25:4 33:3 58:9 64:6 65:4 252:15 254:8 customer's

253:2 customers

22:22 24:15 24:16 25:2 86:20 cut 116:1

184:16 cut-and-paste

151:19 cutting 176:10 CVS255:13 CWAF40:14

40:19 cycle29:3

36:11 129:20 141:4 189:17 190:4 199:11 254:18 cycles 142:20 cyclic51:22 Cymbalsky2:4

5:18,18 7:18 9:15 10:11 11:13 14:21 15:3 16:1 30:4 34:2,19 35:3 36:18 40:16 41:2,7 41:20 42:11 48:12 49:11 49:15 51:3 72:7 85:12 85:17 86:1 87:15 89:2,7 101:3,8 117:21 118:3 118:8,11,19 119:1,6 125:14,19 130:18 136:8 136:11,13,18 137:2,6,14 138:13,21 139:2,7,10 139:15 140:2 140:5,18 150:14 151:22 152:18 177:9 177:12 179:14 181:14 182:22 183:3 184:8 185:18 186:17 187:13 206:6 207:6 213:4 213:17 218:22 219:4 220:6 227:4 229:21 230:4 230:19 231:10 232:11 233:6 233:9 234:2 234:4,8,12 234:16,21 236:14 237:14,18 248:3,10,15 250:19 251:10 255:19 264:13,16 D D2:3 4:1 103:1

104:3 D's 103:7 D.C 1:15 dangerous

180:2 Darlington

2:10 7:5,5 10:21,22 11:16 18:7 18:13 19:19 20:3,18 31:17 data 12:22

33:17 44:18 53:1,6,22 54:2,9 60:19 70:16 74:15 76:15 79:6 88:8,10 90:15,19 98:10 102:1 105:2,3 107:20 108:17 109:14 112:7 112:20 141:8 156:8 166:18 167:2,19 186:18,21,22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 191:17,17,19 191:22 193:9 193:12,13,22 194:7,14,20 196:13,17,18 197:1,2,14 197:14 198:5 198:6,9,12 199:3,10 200:20 202:3 202:9,18 207:21 209:2 249:1 253:12 253:14 255:2 255:21 256:2 258:9,20 261:16 database

249:12 date8:5

138:11 dates 121:6

123:1 138:1 138:6 Dave5:4 28:9

32:13 94:7 121:3 David 6:3

105:11 154:7 265:11 DAWSON

266:3,17 day7:12 37:6

37:7,9 118:16 226:3 236:19 244:12 265:13 days8:6 12:20

237:17 deal 140:12

169:6 230:21 231:1,4 232:22 dealing 35:6 38:22 dealt 109:20 debate87:21

95:19 98:2 177:13 debated

255:22 DeBLASIS

223:4 224:6 257:11 260:19 decade 198:9 decide46:4

143:22 149:21 191:21 decided 145:9

219:14 deciding 45:21

105:21 decision 9:12

66:19 131:13 147:2 150:17 150:22 160:9 174:18 181:5 181:18 232:14 248:16 250:20 251:5 decisions

10:15 252:16 253:3 decline28:11 decrease

31:11 69:11 142:12 decreased

128:10 decreasingly

160:3 dedicated

134:20 deeper34:22 206:5 Defense5:14 deficiencies

210:7 defined 8:17 definitely

103:6 106:20 130:11 131:12 186:1 210:1 211:19 225:8 236:8 248:21 256:16 definition

241:17 definitive

239:3 degradation

142:16,19 143:14 175:14,18 degraded

176:9 degree 120:17

157:2 244:13 degrees 78:19

78:19 81:1 166:8,10 167:14,20 169:22 Del 3:11 5:22

6:8 221:11 221:17 deLASKI2:13

7:7 18:16,17 19:10,15,20 21:1,2 23:20 24:7,10,21 25:4,8 32:3 32:13 34:6 34:16 36:2 80:8,8,13 86:10,19,22 89:4 99:9,12 99:20 119:8 119:13,16,19 120:6,9,12 120:16 122:15 123:17,19 124:4 125:18 125:21 126:21 127:7 128:20 129:2 129:6,9,13 129:18 137:16 138:5 146:11,20 147:5,16 148:2 149:2 149:7 150:10 152:10,17 153:2 154:19 154:22 155:14 156:11,19 157:14 179:1 182:1 192:1 192:5,8 194:4,10,15 194:19 195:2 195:6,18 197:19 223:13,20 224:14 231:13 232:5 233:2 249:22 250:7,10,14 255:7 259:14 261:7 263:13 264:6 delete 151:22

151:22 152:19 Delta87:18

107:2 206:9 206:11 230:14 demand 252:9 density74:7 Department

1:11 10:16 119:22 126:9 126:15 127:5 135:7 153:18 260:22 depend 164:6

170:9 depending

44:9 59:19 81:21 110:19 157:5 168:22 171:16 depends 93:4

94:8,11 derive 196:19 derived 198:8 deriving

198:13 describe 147:7 described

146:12 148:8 describes

160:9 describing

125:20 148:7 160:4 descriptions

44:14 47:9 50:22 design 23:9

39:1 83:11 83:18,20 154:16 180:18 190:8 190:12,15 199:8,17,18 199:19,20 200:9 201:1 201:8 238:12 240:15,17,21 240:21 241:2

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 241:4,6,12 241:13 244:2 244:12 246:21 258:13,14,15 designated

247:4 designed 22:4

83:14 201:17 designs44:10

57:19 58:7 89:22 155:6 190:6 199:12 200:1 201:3 desired 110:7 Det60:9 detail 43:4

51:6 62:1,7 73:3 109:19 200:20 detailed 224:5

261:16 details44:14

51:1 58:6 163:17 173:10 detector 118:6 detectors

209:19 determine

74:16 239:9 determined

235:20 determining

146:13,15 Detlef2:8 7:1

41:18 42:19 45:18 50:7 146:12 161:19 213:11 227:20 228:19 232:3 235:14 246:19 Detlef's 148:7

236:12 develop 125:3 developed

28:6 43:5 44:4,11 49:7 61:1 146:18 developing

49:9 development

65:2 diagonal 168:7 diamond

93:11,12 Diane6:4,5,6

6:12 21:14 22:7,10 23:1 26:18 27:2 182:22 183:2 183:10 186:9 Dick 141:16

161:22 177:21 186:12 difference

26:10 115:4 142:5 144:3 148:14,18 162:10,11,12 163:18 165:19 173:20 174:2 176:20 178:8 206:2,3 208:19,20 213:5,18 214:19,21 222:9 229:20 230:7 253:10 264:12 differences

26:13 57:21 58:1 60:4 104:22 105:5 154:17 173:18 178:17 different8:15

21:6 31:7,13 44:7,10 49:6 49:11 51:1 51:16,17 52:10 57:18 58:7,8,9,19 64:15 65:9 68:13 71:4 72:1 75:13 76:3,19 79:3 79:3 87:5 89:13 92:7,9 92:15 98:8 101:19 102:13 104:8 104:8,9,20 105:2,16 108:14 112:14 122:22 123:1 125:19 134:20 142:9 142:18 145:7 146:12,15 148:10,10,15 154:14,16 155:9,17 159:3 162:20 165:18 176:14 210:17 213:15 231:7 252:17 254:5 254:7 257:13 258:13 259:3 259:5 262:2 262:2,12,13 262:13,15,19 differently 78:14 93:3 99:13 172:19 difficult58:5

62:10 134:7 135:11 166:20 197:13 226:12,12 difficulty 11:12 diffuser

190:19 191:2 200:7,13,15 201:15 238:1 238:4 239:1 239:4,15 241:2 243:5 243:10,16,17 244:1 245:2 261:4,12 diffusers

238:17,18 242:2,16 diffusion

244:20 dig 34:22

76:21 206:4 digest29:18

76:7 239:9 262:22 digits 180:7 dime 150:20 dimensions

107:16 direct93:6

257:20 direction 78:8

79:20,21 234:18 directions

179:3 directly 17:20

81:17 directory

15:15,20 16:13 disagree 132:5 disagreeing

154:10 disappointed

194:5 195:7 discernible

202:2 discharge

110:2,13,14 110:22 111:5 210:13 disclose48:7 disclosed

45:22 46:3 47:13,14 disclosing

47:22 disclosure

47:3 disclosures

47:20 discount

249:4 256:4 256:13 257:3 257:7 discounted

198:20 discounting

250:12 discrepancies

139:8 discuss 50:20

141:9 195:5 discussed

11:19 111:21 143:20 145:5 147:17 discussing

43:4 discussion

11:5 19:2 20:7 30:8 42:8 43:20

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 51:5 75:5 87:21 109:19 138:18 169:18 171:22 188:7 190:22 194:2 discussions

8:20 19:21 44:20 45:2 53:4 75:9 158:20 dishwasher

124:10 disjointed

227:14 disparity256:6 distance81:22

82:1 209:21 209:22,22 distinct38:9 distinction

54:6 66:22 distinctly79:2 distinguish

134:14 162:6 distinguishing

163:10 distributed

164:16 175:10 distributing

72:9 distribution

15:13 27:18 28:2 35:9 44:9 90:10 90:13 98:7 98:11,16 108:6,13 157:9 165:3 236:21 242:4 242:4 258:17 distributions

199:5 237:4 258:2,7,8,12 258:21 259:1 divided 88:4

167:3 division

165:21 docket30:5 document

253:13 documented

253:20 254:18 documents

256:7 DoE5:17,18

8:15,18 9:15 9:18 10:13 16:1 36:18 41:2,20 122:1,3,11 122:19 124:5 124:8,19 125:2,11,16 125:22 179:15 181:15 184:5 184:8 186:13 248:4 DoE's 183:21 doing 39:2,15

48:15 84:8 112:1 113:2 114:16 115:7 139:3 147:4 147:22 149:4 150:2 165:10 179:21 184:20 186:15 210:21 217:8 225:15 237:18 254:5 dollars25:22

27:14 94:3 211:8 250:9 Doppel 2:14

4:22,22 10:5 10:5 26:2 158:21,21 159:5 204:18 253:7,7 dots 105:10,18

105:19 168:7 double 111:18

215:8 237:18 downstream

11:5 13:7 45:11 59:8 112:22 141:5 189:4 drafts 105:12 dragging

116:5 dramatic 14:5

78:10 dramatically

18:14 261:10 draw 155:3 drawings

75:22 drew83:9,9 driftline257:8 drill 32:19

59:15 drive59:12

154:17 164:11 229:9 254:9,12 driven 18:22

223:14 driver 175:15

224:1 251:4 driver's 117:22

118:1 drivers 15:11

160:2 drives 157:4 driving26:9 31:11 41:15 71:21 103:22 260:14 drop57:8,22

59:9 60:7 75:12 76:11 76:13,18 77:14 78:10 80:4 81:7,11 84:2 97:12 113:19 168:11 dropped 87:7

261:10 drops55:2

75:11 78:2,9 79:13 245:2 dry 164:20,22 DSL-1 32:13 DSL-232:14 duct80:21

82:6 188:8 204:16 210:15 ducts79:2,4

84:4 due 137:18

169:11 184:17 197:5 203:7 Duly 195:8 dump 133:17 dumping

245:1 during 8:6

23:3 46:22 duty237:19 E E4:1,1 117:7,7

228:15 e-mail 30:5

46:15 e-mailed 30:2 46:7 e-tran 255:20 earlier26:5

27:17 88:16 137:19 145:5 179:3 181:16 209:9 210:12 210:18 219:2 236:22 early37:22

184:22 186:15,21 188:4 East 165:22

166:3 easy 10:19,20

82:14 218:18 220:3,4 echoing 22:12 economic41:5 economically

261:6,20 economics

198:22 economized

166:19 174:3 174:9,10,11 174:14 economizer

144:4 166:15 166:21 167:9 167:11,21 169:11,13,17 169:20 171:17 172:7 173:3,6,7 177:19 178:3 209:18 economizers

143:21 144:1 164:18 169:19 170:3 170:15 171:7 171:12,22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 172:5 174:21 193:18 Ed 265:10 edification

248:3 EDWARD2:3 EER51:19

54:15 55:10 61:8 64:2 66:2 67:15 122:3 155:5 155:6,15,15 155:19,22 159:10 effect27:3

35:8 81:17 83:14,15 122:16,17,21 122:22 123:1 123:3,13,14 142:12,22 157:2,11 169:12 170:15 175:15 effective 18:20

18:21 effects 84:5 efficiencies

262:2,13,19 263:9 efficiency5:7

12:7,16 15:13 16:7,9 21:12 22:4 24:1 26:15 26:20 27:12 27:16,18,21 27:22 28:2 35:9 43:6,10 44:7,8 51:1 51:13 56:6 58:21 60:15 69:12 86:7,8 86:17 89:12 89:20,21 91:4,5,7,15 91:17,18,20 92:13 95:1 97:7 98:12 102:7 103:10 103:14,18 104:15 107:19 111:18 112:17 114:19 122:7 122:22 128:17,17,22 131:7,11 134:1 156:7 156:8 157:6 158:4 162:3 164:8 169:1 181:2,8 199:4,16 200:4,16,21 201:11 202:22 203:2 208:5,9 215:4,18 218:11 223:21 224:13,15 230:7 254:21 258:2 261:15 262:17 efficient62:22

63:5 69:2 80:3 81:10 144:4 170:10 170:14 203:7 203:8 229:1 effort 179:20 efforts 186:12 eight253:21

255:18 eight-254:18 Eileen 2:2 4:3 30:17 50:5 100:12 117:14 119:8 226:16 either28:15

51:20 82:2 157:6 182:15 208:20 216:21 225:10 232:21 251:8 EL 18:12,13

68:4 80:1 90:19,19 108:7 115:11 136:3 148:19 157:9 164:5 164:11 168:4 168:20 207:15 212:5 213:13 216:1 218:21 262:13,13,15 262:17 263:16 EL-031:8

32:20 99:16 229:13 258:14 EL-1 33:11,22

52:7,11 91:2 91:11,14 96:2 114:12 144:17 171:2 211:11 216:2 221:4 228:1 228:2 230:10 263:19,20 264:9 EL-233:9,13

55:8,16 90:21 91:12 94:17,20 95:10,14 96:1 190:14 190:15 228:8 263:8,20 264:10 EL-2.5 67:14

112:15 153:5 190:7 228:9 259:22 260:3 EL-367:20

91:11,14 95:7 106:19 145:10,12 146:3 147:8 148:1,4 190:8 200:5 201:14 216:5 221:13 235:17,17 241:9 242:8 243:1 259:22 EL-3.543:11

153:5 EL-443:12

69:7 95:13 95:14 106:22 243:3,6 244:1 261:3 261:7,10 EL-543:12

69:14 80:6 92:20,20 96:5 98:20 106:14 211:6 211:15 214:20 216:6 221:3,6 227:21 228:20 229:8 229:12 230:11 240:15 243:10 244:3 246:20 261:11 elasticity

252:9 elbow81:9,10

81:10,12 electric5:1

54:21 151:4 159:8 electrical

210:6,16 electricity

139:20 140:7 elevation

24:20 elevations

24:18 eliminated

141:18,20 239:15 ELs69:20 95:4

95:16 109:13 157:12 172:10 259:10 else42:4

63:15 96:9 180:8 195:16 195:17 212:4 226:7 242:12 259:8 emergency

254:17 Emerson 5:15 emphasize

247:21 employed

266:9,11 employee

266:10 employees

254:10 enclosed

116:5,12 end 28:17 99:7

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 100:20 117:16 141:13 149:9 149:16 160:8 181:10 187:1 192:9 195:20 198:18 224:10 252:1 252:2 energy 1:11

5:7 14:7,7 15:18 26:11 26:13 27:6 29:3,4 36:17 37:9 39:19 43:5,9 56:17 56:21 57:3 63:2,7 68:2 69:22 72:2 75:1 100:17 129:22 130:11 131:18,21 132:1 133:7 135:7,20 141:1 142:12 143:1,13 144:11 145:7 145:11 147:13 153:13,14,15 154:8,14 155:9,16,21 156:3 157:5 158:2,4,16 160:16 163:22 164:7 164:13,15 165:4 168:8 168:9,11,18 169:15 170:1 170:17,22 171:3,8,11 172:1,8,11 175:13,16 176:13 177:4 181:2 189:21 198:21 199:10 259:4 259:11 engineer25:8 engineering

11:4,17 13:2 41:18 42:21 75:1 141:2 142:17 153:12,13 189:22 190:18 199:9 200:10 201:17 261:16 engineers

83:2,4 England

165:22 enlarger81:2 enlargers

80:22 enlisted

207:10 enough 22:9

49:17 61:14 61:15,15 94:1 112:7 132:17 149:5 149:7 150:11 186:1 189:5 236:10,10 entered

123:11 entire90:7,7,7 entrance

234:12 EPCA9:3,6,9 equal 98:6 equate93:18 equipment 33:13 38:8 40:4 41:4 54:16 62:22 65:7 88:14 89:10 102:5 102:9,15 104:1 106:16 108:1 131:14 133:12,18 134:10 160:4 171:9 190:1 190:7,21 191:16 197:11,16 199:3,8,12 200:9 201:8 201:16,18,20 202:5,16,20 202:21 203:19,21,21 204:19,21 205:3 215:4 215:9 238:10 238:12,19 239:16 240:15 241:13,18,21 245:6,8,21 246:15,17,21 248:19 249:6 252:3 258:5 258:14 263:4 equipment's

247:13,19 equipments

133:21 equivalent

69:8 Eric2:5 5:16

8:18 10:2,12 120:20 123:15 185:5 error34:11

75:18 151:19 173:1,3,5 236:8 escort 119:5 ESP 145:13

146:3 157:2 157:4,12 especially

35:21 129:21 ESPs 157:9 essentially

18:20 45:7 51:8 62:19 62:20 80:21 92:5 97:8,19 110:5 133:13 137:22 141:17 144:20 151:15 163:21 165:15 169:8 169:16 175:15 176:22 250:20 estimate84:16

142:8 180:2 197:7 224:19 estimated

84:17 214:5 estimates

135:4 estimator

232:1 et 144:18,18

166:3 209:11 evaluate

111:13 evaporative

159:19 evaporator

57:22 evening233:4 eventually 53:21 126:19 ever94:1

115:11 169:22,22 262:10 every 114:12

128:22 150:4 169:20 179:16 200:1 206:11 253:21 255:18 263:4 263:16 everybody

14:3 50:10 62:16 85:18 101:7 117:9 187:7,20 220:15 everyone8:5

10:21 22:10 74:18 195:16 195:17 235:7 264:18 everything

62:11 63:15 93:16 121:14 151:17 152:1 152:19 160:8 191:14 193:21 200:5 206:10 223:21 225:8 everywhere

227:13 242:12 evidence

94:19 160:18 evoked214:7 ex 185:5 exact40:17

258:7 exactly24:9

40:20 52:4

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 82:17 111:6 220:13 example24:15

52:13 81:10 83:9 95:7 102:20 104:3 124:9 126:22 145:4 156:22 156:22 171:1 224:3,5 240:15 241:9 259:10 263:18 examples

61:15 124:21 125:6,10,22 126:5 exceed 202:22 exceeding

18:21 excellent82:9 except22:3

63:16 65:22 exception

29:11 103:7 200:13 263:8 exchanger

11:20 12:3 19:2 21:16 23:3,7 25:13 26:17 27:5,7 114:15,18 exchangers

47:16,17 excludes

204:16 exclusion

182:16 Excuse54:13 exercise 30:13

185:8 exist57:19 existing 75:11

76:4 83:12 84:15 85:6 89:22 90:3 exists 88:11 expect63:17

72:19,21 79:10 142:5 168:12 176:17 221:5 expected

105:5 176:19 178:16 253:6 expecting

172:14 expensive

22:1,9 94:3 211:20 212:4 experience

82:12,13 202:9 expert20:21

222:20 expertise

20:19 explain 32:2

56:3,11 191:4 200:17 224:7 explained

201:4 explaining

111:8 explains 92:13 explanation

153:11 explicit263:18 explicitly

214:13 expose 109:4 exposure67:6

67:7,11 extended

196:5 extends

251:18 extensive 249:10 253:13 extent42:13

44:22 62:3 84:7 147:1 exterior 144:5

164:16 external 57:10

57:12 58:4 59:6 161:6 219:10,17 extra 128:15

214:21 extrapolating

227:8 extreme

147:22 extremely

141:14,22 166:20 eye70:7 F F 117:7 face39:5 faces234:12 facilitators4:4 facing 234:16 fact 13:11

28:22 29:7 37:8 46:14 83:19 122:12 153:12 158:20 179:2 222:22 239:14 259:4 259:9 factor 140:19 163:19 175:1 175:14,18 178:21 180:14,19 182:16 207:10,16 209:14 210:1 factors 144:7 177:5 179:2 fails 131:15 failure 173:12

251:4 fair24:12

26:10 60:16 214:14 246:12 256:3 fairly 100:18 falls256:16 familiar 125:5 165:21 fan 27:3,5

47:16 48:5 52:14,16 55:15,22 56:7,14,15 56:20 57:1,2 58:13 61:7,8 62:2 63:18 68:2,10 74:2 74:5 81:13 142:1,1,16 142:19,20 145:7 154:15 155:7,8 156:7,9,18 157:4,6,16 157:17 158:4 158:4 161:12 163:22 164:7 165:16,18 167:22 170:20 171:3 172:17 188:14 189:3 189:4 257:5 fans47:17

81:3 159:22 far8:15 67:22

72:17 85:11 88:17 90:12 90:16 95:17 96:21 98:5 131:21 243:7 244:3 farthest234:7 fashion 45:4 favor 178:8 181:8 220:16 features 134:10,13 feed 88:10 feedback 11:19 12:4 13:17 20:4 45:1 113:21 239:6 feel 47:5 83:6

211:21 feeling 82:4

89:4 181:7 feels208:11 field 20:19

68:21 83:22 figure41:12

47:4 82:14 217:14 224:22 257:21 figured 228:13 figures70:14

226:17 file50:16 194:1 files 164:22 filter 112:22 filters 161:14 162:3 final 122:15,20 138:15 143:2 176:10 finally 168:14

201:15 financially

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 266:12 find 9:2 87:10 151:13 160:18 234:20 fine59:1 138:12 167:6 231:3 233:6 finish 136:6 finished 127:15 finishing 117:2 fired 38:7,7,7 first8:9 13:2

37:16 73:15 100:9 102:2 121:22 123:3 123:22 125:9 125:21 128:9 144:22 151:16 183:17,21 187:12 228:10,13 240:18 253:4 258:4 fit78:5 81:14

88:15 113:5 113:12,16,20 115:10 181:19 fitting 80:21

81:8 fittings81:3

82:7 five37:5 252:1 fix232:3,6,15

233:7 fixed 126:19 fixed-speed 155:7,20 flag 234:22 flaking 140:16 flat 116:4 flatbed 113:17 flatbeds 115:21,22 116:12,19 flexibility9:2 110:7 124:8 flexible 9:22 flip260:17 floor 117:18 118:20,21 265:9 floundering

235:3 flow42:13

82:1 110:11 110:12 146:20 189:5 197:21 238:20,22 241:4,6,22 242:3 243:3 243:9,13 244:4 fluorescent

256:9 FMCS5:19 focus 133:11 135:12,14 190:3 focused 163:11 230:5 folks 14:12,13 14:14 20:2 40:4 128:7 131:13 189:22 260:12 follow36:2

97:1 128:20 146:11 148:7 follow-up 17:16 25:11 135:18 following 23:20 113:8 145:9 265:13 food41:11 footage95:9 173:19 force60:19 194:17 forced 143:4 forecast 139:17 foregoing

266:4,7 forget70:19

211:3 forgot 136:3 form 23:19 112:21 formally265:4 Forrestal 1:12 forth 46:11,13

46:18 61:5 142:15 forward 36:11

36:15 48:9 179:9 237:22 found 130:4

204:8 226:8 238:17 242:2 256:19 four37:6,7

51:16,17 89:20 94:22 97:20,21 98:6 110:16 121:19,20 124:2 176:7 176:7,8 229:17 four-quarter

78:21 four-week

254:16 fourth 126:4 fraction 13:17 15:16 172:4 173:4 235:19 235:22 fractionalized 134:19 frame36:19 framed 37:15 framework 127:20 186:2 frankly 150:16 185:22 186:6 free224:19 FREEMAN2:6

6:2,6,8 183:7 183:10 frequency

229:9 frequently

40:9 fresh 182:4 friends214:15 front 179:12

234:22 fudge 178:20 179:2,7 fuel 29:3 full 4:6 7:12,20

29:3 68:7,11 110:11,14,16 136:7 155:5 156:4 251:18 full-load 56:7 fully224:22 function 164:10 168:20 191:7 196:17 203:5 206:14 funded 238:8 furnace 11:3

22:4 23:9 31:4 41:21 257:5,9 furnaces 8:9 22:22 28:15 29:17 34:1 38:6 128:5,7 135:19 256:9 257:2 further41:16

55:8 150:3 164:11,12 178:18 203:11 207:2 238:3 266:10 furthest234:8 future38:19

39:3 133:20 154:10 179:11,11 185:16 202:1 249:9 G G 4:1 gadgets218:9

218:12 gain 131:11

230:17 game 191:20 gap91:10

98:20 222:6 gaps236:10 gas38:7 41:6

54:21 55:3 71:21,22 139:19,22 151:3 159:7 210:7,16 gas-fired 13:3

33:22 gather 184:14 gathers

183:16 gauge26:9 gave 140:19

191:1 205:13

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 205:14 220:8 223:9,10 224:5 general 5:16

64:11 104:12 140:10 167:4 170:12 181:6 256:9 generalized

165:8 generally

68:10 get-away

118:16 getting 9:19

39:19 54:8 57:4 70:8 71:16 78:1 121:5 132:21 142:7 171:13 174:6 191:19 192:9 193:7 196:10,21 199:9 222:15 226:11 244:22 250:12 give9:5,11

58:16 60:19 70:16 124:9 194:10,14 196:1 209:5 223:14,18 252:8 257:12 257:13 given21:9,12

90:18 98:11 143:11 153:17 168:4 184:11 185:22 208:2 209:3 224:18 257:1 gives 142:7,8 149:8 185:10 giving20:15

164:12 220:17 223:17 go4:7 8:1,3,8

9:17 10:15 11:2,2,16 14:18 17:3 30:7 31:6 33:17,20 50:10 52:16 60:21 62:11 67:17 69:6 69:11 74:20 76:14 82:2 86:7,8 87:8 87:10 88:17 91:14,22 92:1 94:4 97:2 99:8,10 100:22 101:3 101:4 104:15 115:18 118:5 119:9 121:9 121:19 127:20 129:15 135:7 135:9 136:1 144:9 151:5 152:8 153:4 154:22 157:7 158:4 164:5 164:21 165:17 167:19 168:15 174:19 178:19 181:10 188:3 189:16 204:14 205:18 207:18 208:14 215:18 218:12 219:12,13 240:11 242:11,11 244:14,17 259:22 260:7 goal 63:11 goes21:12

32:15 67:21 74:7 90:17 91:11 96:3 99:5 103:14 103:18 118:13 168:21 171:12 183:17 193:5 210:10 213:21 216:16,19 241:4 254:2 going 8:1,3,8

8:11 9:1 10:19 11:2,2 13:12,13 14:3,3 15:11 22:18,19 30:1 34:8 40:12 43:22 47:8 50:4,5 51:7 53:5,8 53:18 54:1,3 56:16,17,21 59:3,12 60:4 63:18 64:5 65:22 66:17 66:18,19 72:1 74:13 77:9,11,20 77:21 78:1,4 80:3 82:15 83:15 86:6,9 87:2,18 88:16,22 93:20 94:4,4 94:17 95:14 104:14 106:20 107:13 108:21 109:3 116:10 117:15 118:14 119:22 121:9 122:16 128:16 129:5 130:3,13 135:1,6,9 136:17 137:20,22 138:6,11 140:7,13,22 142:15 143:4 147:19 148:3 148:3 149:12 149:21 150:1 150:1,22 153:8,14,15 154:3 155:2 155:8,13 157:6,10,12 157:17 162:19 165:5 172:10,16 176:2 179:2 188:1 189:16 193:22 194:4 194:11 195:11 198:16,19 206:10,12 208:15,18,20 210:9 211:8 212:14 216:3 216:14,20 218:6,19,20 221:15 223:18 225:7 225:14,20,22 229:6,15,16 230:1,15,16 230:22 232:15 233:18 238:21 240:16 241:3 244:4,12 245:12 247:9 247:18 248:9 249:17 251:10,19 253:2,5 257:22 258:1 264:3 265:4 265:6 gone29:4

94:21 124:19 192:2 261:5 good4:3 10:21

14:2 39:1 82:9 117:13 149:5,7,15 153:19 164:12 187:8 188:3 189:6 203:5 204:9 206:6 209:6 211:21 221:9 223:11 236:10 242:2 242:3,4 245:16 262:9 265:2 Goodman 5:11

40:13 63:22 64:17 78:13 79:11 158:12 178:13 Google84:21 got4:20 7:11

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 11:19 12:4 13:17 20:19 34:22 36:1 53:3,6 55:6 63:16 66:7 66:12 76:20 86:12 104:4 115:13 119:10 138:20 140:15 150:15 152:15 155:12 168:8 173:15 176:1 188:15,18 204:7 206:3 213:22 220:6 229:7 231:8 232:2 233:11 238:22 242:3 243:3,7 244:17 250:10 252:1 253:4 264:14 264:18 Gotcha246:13 gotten 20:4

120:11 government

67:2 grade 19:6,14

19:16 20:5 20:11 21:12 grades 13:13

21:6 Grail 252:13 graphs85:14 grappling 9:1 great 177:9

181:14 229:12 244:6 greater96:5

221:13 259:11,12 greatly249:20 green 14:20 Greenheck

3:21 6:19 greg 2:7 7:16

11:5 14:1 18:16 20:12 30:22 31:20 121:19 127:22 128:21 147:10 160:22 163:6 167:16 187:10 188:6 189:15 195:18 196:4 230:20 235:8 246:19 252:11 257:12 259:14 263:13 grew 123:5 ground 73:8

136:2,15 153:16,19 group 1:2 5:22

45:3,15 48:8 51:8 53:3 60:20 72:6 74:14 137:7 140:9 182:14 193:2 196:22 204:14 208:11 220:10 234:19 248:22 265:13 grouped

103:17 105:15 grouping 102:11 103:12,13,14 grow95:2 97:7 growing

103:15 grows 98:15 growth 95:5

99:5 guarantee

38:19 guess 9:4 11:1

11:6 14:5 22:19 36:2 44:22 45:20 47:21 48:16 48:16 54:5 56:12 59:4 66:9 75:6 95:9 99:13 104:19 105:4 106:12 107:8 107:10 114:10 119:21 120:21 127:1 138:19 149:2 152:5 170:8 172:13 178:14 183:14 191:20 192:1 193:11 194:5 196:20 198:3 203:13 207:1 228:12 229:19 238:15 240:18 241:1 242:5 264:22 guide39:1,3 gun 185:21 guy8:12

208:16 223:9 229:16 guys 11:13

20:15 146:22 147:2 188:19 189:2 192:5 196:2 197:21 205:9 217:22 218:12 219:22 223:7 guys'219:18 H half7:22 17:10

37:6 43:3,16 44:15 48:1 48:20 49:6 51:10 55:9 64:2 89:15 89:16,17,18 92:2,3 94:16 95:6,9,12 96:9,10 97:4 97:5,6,6 99:6 102:20,22 103:5,16 111:11,15 115:7 116:4 116:4,8,15 124:16 143:6 144:12 145:1 145:18 146:2 150:19 153:4 156:21 163:1 163:9,14,14 163:16,18 165:12 170:13 190:11 192:18 199:13 201:19 202:13 203:15 204:2 208:2 211:5 211:10,14,15 211:15,21,22 212:5,22 213:1,2,5,12 214:12,20 216:1,15 221:1 225:10 227:18 228:10,18,20 229:2,13 235:16 247:11,17 252:5,7,17 257:7 259:2 260:3,8 261:21 263:8 half-hour62:2 halfs 92:1 hallway

121:14 hammer 172:6 hand 51:7 61:6

252:20 hand-outs

44:19 45:6 handed 39:11

45:10 handing 45:14 handler

162:20 handlers

53:19 handling

214:2,3 handout 151:6

151:9 182:17 201:13 handouts

14:22 happen 22:20

56:13 72:21 135:3 147:18 147:19 185:6 186:22 203:6

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 252:8 happened

145:14 172:17 happening

23:22 39:21 57:14 72:20 171:6 254:4 255:18 happens28:1

91:12 168:8 175:9 260:12 happier

220:15 happy 178:2

205:12,22 206:4 208:12 220:12,20 hard 4:12 7:22

36:8 58:5 59:21 93:10 116:6 148:4 164:5 harder69:15 hardly 198:19 Harvey2:20

5:10 16:16 16:17 25:10 37:12 114:9 115:19 140:14 159:13 178:10 196:3 197:4 202:7 212:12,15 224:17 233:21,22 235:6 249:7 249:7,8,19 252:14 has 10:7 15:14

17:7 18:13 20:19 27:4 27:15 29:7 30:21 31:3 31:13 33:9 37:21 45:6 47:9,11 48:8 57:22 59:5 61:19 62:12 66:7 69:5 70:18 74:11 86:18 91:3 91:16 92:2 93:12 95:22 109:15 111:19 122:19 123:15,21 124:8,19 125:12,22 131:3 140:15 144:16 145:22 158:19 167:21 170:20 175:14 180:21 182:1 182:22 183:2 183:3 203:6 224:4 229:8 237:21 238:6 250:17 259:9 263:5 hasn't 195:15

195:17 hate218:17 haven't 114:12

121:11 144:10 161:21 165:8 having 14:19

38:16 81:22 98:9 206:17 232:11 243:15 hazarded 84:15 head 23:3

25:13 39:20 165:15 headaches

218:20 hear9:6 22:10

30:22 34:13 131:9 136:18 208:7 239:6 240:19 251:8 heard 27:2

37:22 59:17 107:18 146:13 161:22 180:13 195:18 207:20 213:20 223:6 248:21,21 hearing 11:12

41:16 127:17 251:15 heat 11:20

12:3 19:2 21:16 23:7 26:17 27:5,7 47:15,17 54:21,21 114:15,18 132:7,18 165:4,14,16 175:16 257:4 heating 132:13

133:16 136:3 141:19,20,21 166:13 heavier215:20

221:4 229:1 heavily 19:5 heavy215:10 heck255:11

255:12 height222:21 225:17 held 30:8 51:5 Hello21:14

30:17 help23:5

36:19 56:3 70:9 121:8 126:7 214:15 217:17 226:16 263:14 helped 39:15

244:20 helpful 105:7

116:17 121:4 126:5,8 167:7 helps 193:9 her4:12 183:5 here6:5 7:7,11

9:21 11:1,7 13:2,19 14:5 15:11 22:20 23:22 28:12 28:14 30:17 31:2 34:8,12 36:14 38:17 39:16 42:21 43:4 46:16 52:6 53:3 54:16 55:9 55:20 63:3 65:1 67:13 69:14 72:13 73:15 74:21 75:8 77:1 87:16 90:4 92:1,12,13 92:15 93:9 93:12 95:6 95:16,20,20 97:15,20 99:4 112:8 112:13 113:1 118:4 121:14 127:4 128:13 128:16 130:12 139:9 144:2 147:7 149:4,9,16 149:18 150:5 150:20 153:13 154:9 155:13 156:8 163:22 167:2 168:2,14 171:6 173:21 175:8 176:11 176:13 178:5 179:3,10 180:3 181:18 190:6 195:22 200:19,22 201:13,15 203:11,22 205:2 206:3 221:21 224:4 230:17 235:13,13 238:15 240:13 246:14 247:12,18 257:22 258:2 259:2,16 261:2,14,19 263:2,19 264:21 Here's 95:6

224:3 232:16 hereby266:4 Hey220:10 hi 11:8 31:2

50:4,10,17 111:9 117:11 117:12 160:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 high 10:15

73:21 85:13 94:1 102:14 103:2 139:6 215:4 248:6 255:5 high-end

35:21 higher 19:1,16

21:12 24:17 24:19,20 26:19 33:15 55:13 56:6,8 56:15 57:10 57:12 58:4 59:4,6 63:17 64:2 66:2,10 67:7,15 74:7 81:20 84:18 86:17 90:22 91:5,6 92:18 92:21 95:11 97:7 98:9 107:7 110:13 112:19 114:19 155:14,15,15 155:19,22 157:11,12 171:1,16 172:15 181:2 181:8 205:2 207:15 218:12 228:15 251:22 252:2 263:9 highest73:18

98:17 100:14 102:7 162:3 202:22 212:5 highly 106:6 hill 71:21,22 historical 122:12 192:22 196:15 history42:1 hit56:18 hmm 217:12 HOFF7:10 Hoffman 2:2

4:3,4 7:7,19 8:2 16:16 22:7,10 30:9 30:16,17 31:16 49:22 50:4,6,10 64:16,18 72:5,10 99:11 100:12 100:12,20 101:20 116:20,22 117:9,12,14 118:1,14,21 119:11,15,18 120:5,14 122:13 123:15,18 124:1 127:6 127:9,12,17 127:22 128:3 136:6,10,12 140:20 182:9 182:20 183:2 183:6,11 187:9,15,20 188:5,10 189:9,14 195:8 220:16 226:16,16,21 227:1,5 232:16 233:5 233:8,11,16 233:19 234:3 234:10,19 235:5 239:18 240:2,5,9 249:7 256:20 264:20 265:4 hold 34:7,17

102:10 137:12 191:3 Holy252:13 home 123:7,8

124:12 172:6 188:4 honest226:11 Hootman 2:15

4:21,21 15:4 18:12 19:12 24:6,9 26:22 39:12,12 40:11 41:8 42:16 46:12 46:16 48:18 53:9,9 54:11 58:9 65:4,17 66:21,22 67:11 69:13 75:19 79:14 79:17,17 80:7 85:8,8 85:22 87:4 87:14 93:13 96:8 108:14 108:20 109:2 113:7,13 115:5,10,16 115:18 116:2 118:7,9 130:15 132:5 132:9,12,17 134:15 136:20 138:4 138:9 139:8 139:22 140:3 149:6 150:6 162:12,15,18 179:8,8 182:18 192:3 192:7 194:8 195:4,9 212:14 215:12 217:7 230:3 234:14 239:22 248:13,17 249:14,15 250:17 252:11 253:11 255:6 255:9 262:6 264:1,11,14 hope9:21

49:19 117:13 121:15 195:19 hoped 119:20 hopefully

11:18 109:14 121:13 136:4 257:21 hoping 197:1

248:22 258:9 horizontal

168:9 horse48:19 hot 168:10 hotel 234:17

234:17 hotter71:16 hour7:22 37:7

74:16,17 142:3 164:22 229:19 hourly 164:21

167:19 hours37:6,8

39:16 41:5 56:18 118:14 142:9 157:16 157:17 159:21 168:9 168:10 180:13 182:16 229:16,17 house4:6 37:5 housekeeping

141:7,10 143:16 however 13:11

43:13 82:18 110:10 175:4 HRI 4:17 Huang 6:18 huge59:12

135:7 231:20 233:10 253:9 humming

11:14 Hunt2:16 5:2

5:2 11:8,8 50:17,17 51:4 54:13 54:13,19 55:1,5 67:17 70:15 71:3,6 71:10 87:13 151:3,3,8,12 152:3 159:7 159:7 177:1 177:1,11,13 179:5,5 182:13 183:5 233:13,13,18 239:11,11 240:4 254:19 254:19 261:22 262:9 262:15 Hurst2:19 7:9

7:10 HVAC94:1 I I'd 30:2 34:12

72:17 138:7

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 153:22 214:18 217:20 231:3 I'll 11:4 15:12

19:22 27:1 31:14 34:6 40:22 41:17 41:18 42:20 62:15,16 63:1 119:6 125:7 128:20 135:19 143:18 175:2 176:8 177:12 190:21 191:3 191:8,8 195:6 200:17 218:22 220:12 223:14 234:21 237:22 i.e90:1 idea 108:12

175:8 176:4 177:10 199:8 232:2 ideal 81:4

183:22 ideas 31:15

232:18 identified

43:15 identify4:10

4:13 30:19 identifying

154:11 IEER45:9

51:19,22 52:3,8,12 58:16 62:17 63:12,21 65:9,14 66:4 66:8,10 67:4 67:22 70:4,5 71:1 73:5 102:15 103:14 109:22 145:6 153:8 154:15 156:12,17 164:12 IEERs45:8

64:8 103:2 IFMA249:10 imagine71:8 imminent

256:2 impact 15:17

15:20 36:15 41:5 120:6 129:22 131:12 143:14 147:20,22 150:15 168:5 171:2 176:18 182:15 198:19 263:5 impacts

175:13 189:22 implemented

12:17 146:18 191:11 implications

150:18 imply245:22 important4:5

9:20 88:9 139:16 150:9 181:13 184:14 238:15 248:15 262:9 impossible

86:11 impression 85:6 improve

249:20 improvements

164:9 improves

158:5 in-depth

190:22 inaudible

21:18,20,21 21:22 22:5,8 23:17,19 26:20,21 147:22 155:12 186:13 192:9 209:19 219:18 224:16 233:10 264:8 incentivize

254:10,10 inch 78:21

161:14 162:1 162:16,18 188:17,19 inches 75:15

161:3,4 incidents

125:5 include 12:8

85:20 93:8 154:14 161:12 177:7 202:5 203:19 204:20 205:1 209:11,17 221:19 224:12 included 76:16

126:14 222:3 includes45:19

51:8 100:9 203:16 including

31:22 123:7 124:12 145:12 156:8 182:5 204:18 205:2 222:5 256:8 inconsistency

227:19 229:4 incorrect

130:5 151:6 increase 12:1

26:16,19 27:4,5 29:6 33:10 36:17 70:6 91:2 105:22 106:1 113:3,18 129:4 130:1 130:2 131:10 140:11 143:1 157:4,6 193:5 207:21 207:22 213:20 218:10 221:12 increased 12:2

17:7,12 27:20 29:8 32:1 161:6 increases

73:19 74:6 90:21 209:3 increasing

99:1 114:15 114:17 134:1 202:15 203:4 increment

34:14 129:14 134:1 146:3 146:4 incremental 32:20,22 112:2,6,19 increments

143:10 incurring

14:15,16 97:12 indeed 63:6

124:18 221:4 260:21 Independence

1:14 index 165:20

244:21 indicate212:2 indicated

75:14 78:18 indicates

160:20 indicating

47:12 79:20 79:21 indication

109:6 indicator

196:8 indices 165:22

196:10 indirect

159:18 individual

19:21 82:5 individually

109:3 111:14 individuals

5:20 indoor 16:18

17:1 47:17 48:5 52:14 52:16 68:10 74:2 industry38:12

75:6 97:22 98:1 104:13

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 217:9,10 inferring 197:5 infinitely 144:3 inflate206:11 inflection

260:9,10,16 influences

15:16 inform 198:13

258:21 information

43:8 44:22 45:19 47:11 47:16,22 49:3,7,8 50:14 53:19 61:1,6 75:10 75:12 76:6 84:11,13 89:15 97:15 109:1,16 130:8 131:17 132:22 141:3 161:18 173:10 183:16,18,20 184:14 185:11 186:5 193:17 194:18 196:9 196:21 197:18 223:18 235:12,14 238:3 248:20 informative

168:15 ing 225:5 initial 46:6

105:7 123:1 initially49:7

70:2 inlet-outlet

82:6 input20:15,22 49:8 53:3 55:13 74:6 88:7 90:16 109:13 141:4 184:1 248:22 inputs 109:16

189:21 inquisitor

236:13 insight 197:2 insightful

186:14 install 203:16

203:20 204:10,13,17 209:10 213:2 214:5 216:2 229:1 installation

157:22 158:6 202:6,12,15 203:5,14 209:20 213:20 221:13 installations

21:10 installed 31:9

31:18 32:5 86:22 98:13 128:10,12 203:22 204:4 217:16 260:3 260:4 installing

160:4 instance48:5

91:22 102:22 instances

76:11,13 instead 51:7

167:10 171:14 181:21 211:7 254:16 institute 150:2 integer 143:5

148:3 integrate44:5 intensively

37:2 inter-cooling

159:19 interaction

185:3 interactions

184:5 interchange...

75:7 interest47:3

100:13 178:17 interested

206:4 266:12 interesting

245:10 interests

212:13 intermediate

91:17,20 95:16 internal 38:1

58:1 60:6,7 161:16,20 162:10 215:14 internally

257:2 interpolating

69:18 interpolation

51:20 interrupting

212:15 into4:9 9:9

13:1 28:16 30:20 31:16 33:4 34:22 36:15 37:3 41:13,22 42:10 44:6 44:13 76:21 87:20 90:17 92:7 93:17 93:20 95:21 103:21 112:22 113:12 122:16,21 123:11 133:17 135:2 136:1 138:15 143:4 161:1 182:15 187:2 196:11 197:3 199:9 202:1 202:17 224:8 230:9 240:16 241:21 246:1 253:12 256:19 introduce6:14

23:17 145:10 introducing

173:2 intuition 36:5 intuitively

86:10 139:18 investment

38:18 Investor5:3 involved33:4

43:7 50:13 214:11 253:9 IOUs 159:8

177:2 239:12 irregular225:4 isn't52:4

81:18 87:17 94:4 135:9 197:19 isolate84:5 issue 16:2

42:2,12 61:21 73:11 80:1 142:14 143:5 144:2 144:6 145:5 154:8,11 172:7 175:1 175:3 178:6 179:4 182:12 190:19 196:4 207:9 228:22 231:20 260:20 issued 108:17

122:16,20 123:4 issues 10:13

10:13 42:4 90:4 114:6 141:10 143:17 177:7 219:11 237:15 it'd 62:10

219:13 item 82:5 84:3

125:2 iteration 190:4 J Jakobs 6:5,5,6

6:7 21:14,15 22:8,12 23:15 26:18 183:9 186:9 186:9 James 7:3

75:2 100:19 111:8,9 113:7 114:9 115:5 216:15 217:8

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 James's 213:8 January

122:17 Jeff238:5

245:19 Jeremiah 2:6

6:11 Jill 2:15 4:21

26:22 39:12 53:9 66:22 79:17 85:8 86:12 93:13 94:8 115:19 132:2 134:15 179:8 249:14 249:18 253:11 264:1 Jill's 182:2 Jim 3:11 5:22

6:8 46:15 job62:12 116:10 John 2:4,19

5:18 7:9,10 7:16,16 9:15 10:5 16:1 29:19 36:18 37:13 39:15 41:2,20 42:7 88:12 117:20 119:3 160:9 179:15 181:14 184:8 185:13 218:22 232:6 248:4 John's39:14

149:21 joint 123:5 124:10 joke9:2,3 jot 152:10

261:10 jump 15:21,22 86:9 92:3,20 103:10 149:9 jumping 13:1 104:15 149:15 250:19 jury255:19 K Karen 3:12

5:22 6:7,8 Katie2:9 6:20

135:19 140:21 146:12 152:7 164:3 187:10 187:12 196:11 198:15 KCC85:10 keep57:18

63:10 64:12 93:4 101:2 149:14,20 150:1,19 151:1 228:1 228:9,14 232:6 244:20 keeps 93:2 kept 125:17 key246:14 kick244:14 kind 8:4 21:3

36:4 37:11 41:12,12 61:11,12 69:7 70:17 71:20 72:17 72:20 73:1 75:7 80:4,19 82:2 89:9 92:12 96:12 96:19 99:7 106:12 108:8 108:9 116:10 116:16 133:8 136:2 137:11 138:19 141:7 141:8,13 142:6 143:3 143:10 151:18 165:13 166:14 167:8 170:4 172:2 172:6 177:16 186:10 193:21 195:13 213:2 215:2 231:18 247:1 251:22 254:12 kinds 193:8

255:14 KIRKLAND

266:3,17 knew89:3 know8:11 9:5

11:19 14:21 17:9 18:3 21:4,7,19 22:2,13 23:10 29:9 29:19,22,22 31:10 34:10 35:22 39:17 40:2,20 44:21 45:18 46:14,17 48:9,21 53:7 53:20 56:11 56:21 57:6 60:8,22 61:8 61:17,22 62:6,16 63:19 64:1,5 66:14 69:22 72:16 73:8 73:10,14 74:2,2 79:5 81:22 82:17 83:4,4 87:22 88:16 92:22 93:6 94:19 95:16 96:4 97:2 98:3 104:1,7 105:15 106:8 106:19,22 107:18,18 108:8,19 110:19 112:9 114:2,4 120:21 121:7 121:11 123:20 124:5 125:7 132:2 133:6 134:1 134:4 135:1 135:4,6,13 136:4,8 137:5,15,19 137:20 140:8 140:10 141:2 141:11 143:15 147:7 148:12,21 149:4,8,17 150:7,21 151:2 153:16 153:21 154:10,13 158:10 160:12 161:5 161:19 166:14,16 168:4 169:9 169:9 171:22 172:5 173:1 173:6,9,12 174:1,19 175:6 177:19 179:16 180:1 180:7,11 181:18 182:3 182:7 184:16 185:4 187:4 188:17 192:10,11 194:5,7 195:14 197:2 197:10 198:18 203:4 203:9,10 205:19,20 207:4,22 210:21 211:3 211:18 215:22 217:20 218:21 220:7 222:7,8,14 222:18 224:4 224:16 225:15,17 226:7,7 227:8 230:8 230:16,19 232:4 240:18 244:8 245:20 250:11 254:7 254:17 255:2 255:13,15 256:7,17 259:7 260:9 260:19 264:18 265:1 knowing 108:6 knowledge

51:9 knows 123:17 KWH 151:10

153:6,9,9 L L'Enfant

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 117:17 118:19 234:1 265:8 L-3261:1 labor203:16

203:20 214:5 laboratories

131:20 132:6 132:7,14,18 Labs6:21 Lacking 218:1 ladder69:12 lamps256:9 lands 188:22 landscape

78:17 79:13 80:5 87:5 laptop213:6 large33:14

37:18 75:16 75:17,19 89:17 90:8 90:11 99:3,4 102:9 105:1 105:13,15 107:20 115:4 168:5 235:13 258:6 larger27:6

60:5 91:5 99:3 102:8 103:8,18 104:5,14 107:21 129:7 131:5,5 146:9 210:5 largest85:9

94:5 96:22 102:15 last8:4,7

11:19 12:5 12:20 17:3 17:20,20 18:1,5,9,11 18:15 19:3 20:7 23:1 27:13 28:21 31:9,10,19 32:6 35:16 43:2 47:10 54:1 62:15 80:9 89:14 106:12 111:12,16,22 112:9 113:10 120:22 125:2 125:11 128:11 129:21 130:8 130:13,15 141:11 143:3 143:20 144:21 150:4 151:9,22 153:11 154:5 159:14 160:13 164:14 173:17 190:2 190:17 191:5 191:14 192:9 192:10,17 195:20 198:12 199:6 199:7 200:12 200:14 201:19,22 202:13 203:10 214:18 235:12 238:2 243:5,20,22 247:11,15,22 248:20 251:2 256:5 258:5 259:6,16,18 261:6 late 191:19 236:19 later 12:18

15:13 32:17 57:1 75:3 87:21 97:17 149:21 190:21 200:18 251:9 latest 15:15,19

16:12 198:6 Laughter39:9

49:12 89:3 109:10 252:10 launching

44:13 law 185:10 Lawrence 6:20

71:13 LBNL6:22

43:8 50:14 69:21 90:6 177:6 182:14 198:15 219:12 231:22 LBNL's 180:12 LC 129:20 LCC 12:17

14:4,4,8 18:18 43:9 146:19,21 147:4,10 lead 124:6,15

124:17 125:1 leading 7:17

85:15 leads 124:8 learn 182:6 learned 182:5 learning 182:8 least88:16

109:6 110:12 133:16 156:20,21 187:1,8 193:6 198:7 225:10 236:2 238:16 252:22 254:4 255:6 259:19 263:5 leave 153:18

167:22 264:7 265:6 leaving 19:6 left73:8 230:6 left-39:10 legal 8:15 9:18

120:20 121:20 138:14 legislation

126:19,20 legislative

126:16 leisure 97:16 length 82:6

223:2 less40:9

58:22 60:6 63:18 68:7 68:10 69:2 71:22 74:22 109:18 110:11 114:13 133:22 135:4 143:6 148:4 149:1 156:12 167:15 170:7 177:22 217:2 228:20,22 255:3 lesser20:11 level 12:16

21:13 29:1,1 29:11 33:9 44:8 55:10 60:15 62:7 63:21 64:9 73:3 80:1 84:13 89:21 91:4,5,18 92:8,9,14 94:20 98:12 98:17 107:19 111:18 112:12 114:19 123:22 128:22 131:8 136:14 137:1 148:19 169:1 181:20 198:1 199:22 200:21 201:1 201:2,7,11 202:22 212:6 212:18 216:1 224:20 244:18 260:22 261:15 264:4 levels 12:7

28:22 29:10 33:15 43:7 43:10 44:7 51:2,13,22 52:10 60:18 66:2,4 70:4 86:14 89:13 91:7,15,18 91:20 92:2 95:1 96:21 97:7 98:15 102:15 108:7 110:1,9 112:7,17 115:11 121:6 122:18,22 124:3 137:18

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 138:7 181:2 181:9 199:16 200:4,16 207:15 218:11,21 228:2,3,15 254:9,11 261:5 262:3 262:14,15 Lewis 236:14 license 117:22

118:2 lieu 193:8

221:8 life 17:13

18:22 23:6 33:12 36:11 37:14 38:20 42:8 129:20 130:3 131:5 141:4 189:17 189:20 190:4 196:4 197:7 199:11 247:13,19 249:11 250:14 251:14,18 253:6 254:3 life-for-life

87:9 lifespan 35:13

35:18 131:1 131:5 193:4 252:3,4 lifetime 17:4,7

17:9 29:7 35:6 130:5 131:6 191:16 192:14 196:17,19 197:11 198:13,18 199:4 248:19 249:6 251:19 lifetimes 38:10

130:9 lift209:21,22

210:10 lifted 202:20 light37:4,5

104:4 179:9 lightly 143:8 like4:7 6:3

10:7 17:22 20:13 24:15 26:8 28:11 29:17 30:2 32:21 33:11 33:17 34:12 35:5 39:18 39:22 40:7 45:1 46:13 55:17,22 57:14 60:10 61:18 62:1 64:10 68:5 70:7 71:20 73:21 75:15 75:21 78:16 79:2 81:3 82:4,6,13 83:8 84:2 85:4,13 92:19 95:13 96:16 97:3 97:18 101:16 103:11 104:4 107:5 114:17 118:4 131:3 134:6 137:21 138:7,21 139:2 144:3 154:14 157:22 170:12 173:13 174:20 177:19 178:1 178:7 179:7 180:9 182:11 186:14 187:6 188:17 195:10 196:8 197:13 206:15 207:9 209:18 217:4 218:19 219:17,21 221:8,9 223:9 224:18 226:19 227:7 227:15 228:4 228:22 229:10 230:20 231:19 232:21 233:9 239:6,20 246:12 247:22 248:4 248:11 251:10 252:12,16 259:13 262:3 likely22:20

24:17 44:8 94:5 116:12 132:13,18 147:17 173:3 231:19 limited 111:22 Linda3:13 6:9 line5:20 6:1

26:10 34:16 65:20 73:15 86:8 129:13 129:15 168:6 210:14 linear73:7

74:9 lines 87:6 list 11:1 literature

159:15 little28:2 30:3

32:19 36:3 36:20 38:16 42:8 44:17 55:8 56:15 56:16,21 57:3 61:3,4 63:8 68:6 69:2,15 73:8 74:6 75:13 78:3,4 81:19 81:22 82:12 90:9,15 92:13,18 97:10 98:19 103:16 108:11 133:9 135:14 137:21 139:17,19 150:5 155:19 156:20 157:10 164:5 166:11,15 168:15 171:16,16 175:19 176:7 182:6 200:18 202:18 206:4 207:5 218:5 229:20 240:19 245:4 251:21 256:14 live232:20 lives38:22

39:4 196:5 250:16 load 51:22

60:10 61:9 64:3 68:7,7 68:11 69:1 69:16 71:15 71:16 74:15 110:1,3,7,10 110:11,14 141:19,19 142:1,2 144:7 155:5 156:4 165:4 165:14,15,16 165:16,16,18 167:12,22 170:19,20 173:18 175:1 175:10 176:7 176:8 182:15 loaded 143:8

176:3 loads 110:17

141:12,14 143:13 169:4 175:7 located 81:15 locations

78:20 85:5 locked 93:17

230:9 logic212:16 logical 107:11 long 6:18,18

39:4 41:3 58:19,21 88:1 100:15 102:3 122:13 141:13 147:4 178:19 185:11 237:16 longer33:12

35:6 39:18 87:10 207:3 249:17 254:15 look9:9 14:19

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 25:20 29:12 41:10,11,11 41:22 42:1 45:21 46:1,3 46:4 48:10 52:13 53:6 57:20 58:12 60:1 61:7,20 62:2,17,18 64:8 65:19 65:22 66:18 68:5,8 69:7 72:16 73:14 77:1,8 79:1,2 79:6 85:3,4 85:12 86:7 92:12 95:7 97:3,15,16 102:1,5 103:9,13 104:9,21,21 106:9,13 107:5,20 125:6 140:5 144:19 148:4 148:5,14,18 153:4,6 155:4,11 159:17 164:15 168:17 174:4 177:14 202:17 209:2 211:4,13 213:7 214:19 232:11 235:3 240:7 242:10 254:6 257:1 257:16 260:2 261:5 262:22 looked 20:7

60:9 72:18 73:3 76:10 77:10,14 89:19 90:6 113:15 142:7 160:17,20 161:1 166:18 169:12 173:18 187:5 192:3 213:10 238:8 256:6 looking 12:9

18:9,18 26:7 29:17 30:3 32:3,4 33:8 33:11,22 50:21 54:16 55:15,19,21 68:2 69:5,9 102:19 104:7 104:20 105:9 105:22 120:16 133:9 133:11 144:15 161:22 173:16,19 176:20 180:1 192:5,21 202:17 213:9 223:20,21,22 256:18 257:15 261:3 261:8 looks26:8

29:17 33:11 55:22 103:11 105:14 107:5 167:6 175:9 187:6 248:4 248:11 looped 190:18 Lord 141:16

162:1 Lord's 186:12 lose224:19 losers 36:6,13 37:1,7 losing 14:16

73:18 222:16 losses 59:12

80:18 81:5 lost4:20 lot 12:4 14:6,8

14:9 19:1 21:2 34:22 41:13 47:19 59:18,19 62:11 72:14 76:6,19 77:20 80:22 84:8 86:12 97:14 115:20 131:20,21 133:13,17 138:18 147:1 149:16 153:6 166:2 171:21 179:19,20 185:22 186:3 197:12 198:13 203:10 214:10 218:19 225:14 231:4 233:12 249:17 254:5 255:11,12,22 262:20 263:2 lots 139:8

221:9 loud 217:19 loudly30:20 Louis2:22 5:6

17:2,18 41:9 52:18 55:14 57:17 58:17 62:14 63:10 67:21 68:1 71:11 72:15 77:6 78:18 83:7 92:4 93:14 100:8 106:11 133:5 145:16 160:5 169:7 177:18 180:10 183:16 189:14 197:8 207:13 211:2 214:17 225:11 227:22 231:6 244:7 Louis's59:15 love 152:3 low37:19

75:14 81:5 81:11 96:21 98:14 99:7 141:14 144:5 180:7,17 249:20 252:1 lower 19:6,13

52:16,16 60:6 69:1 81:21 91:4 111:20 143:12,13 146:8 155:16 167:5 171:3 171:16 172:1 172:2 174:4 215:14 221:6 236:11 lowers 143:14 lowest 91:16

93:11 212:6 244:18 LU 266:3,17 lucky8:12 lunch 32:9

41:1 100:14 100:21 117:2 117:2,2,13 127:14 128:4 luncheon

117:5 lutsers244:14 M machine87:13

87:14 253:4 Maddox3:17

6:10 made 12:12,20

13:10,13,16 13:18 76:1 82:17 83:3 94:18 98:8 121:17 141:7 144:11 147:17 160:2 186:11 190:4 241:16 263:5 magnitude

25:12 75:11 84:14 168:13 181:11 magnitudes

160:16 164:1 171:9 181:12 main 15:8

34:10 59:4 64:2 84:3 100:3 143:19 mainly206:15

207:11 maintain 57:11

244:9 254:9 254:11 major89:20

193:15 195:1 majority

193:15 make-up 133:8 makes 11:13

11:14 38:15

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 56:2 61:21 69:1 84:8 92:11 104:17 142:4 144:3 165:18 178:7 179:1 220:15 253:9 making 9:12

55:5 135:8 171:19 174:1 178:18 181:6 215:9 221:7 222:16 232:6 232:13 245:5 251:5 254:11 manner

114:18 manufacture

15:12 26:16 31:13 33:2 78:15 95:22 96:21 103:7 120:6 manufacturer

65:1 76:2,8,9 76:10,22,22 77:2 78:16 79:7 87:11 91:3,16 92:17 94:14 94:14,20 95:7,20 96:3 96:13 97:3 98:22 103:1 103:19 104:3 111:13 153:22 196:1 manufacture...

96:6 manufacture...

19:21 20:4 21:4 22:18 38:2 39:2,6 43:16 44:10 44:20 46:8 48:14 49:9 49:14,18 50:9,12 58:8 61:5 62:4 64:15,20 67:8 79:16 87:5 89:20 91:11 92:15 93:15 94:1 97:20,21 98:4 102:2 102:13,17 107:18 109:10 112:2 122:8 123:8 123:9 124:13 125:1 147:18 156:15,16 177:21 178:12 193:14,15,21 194:6 196:9 220:19,21 253:16 265:5 manufacture...

60:18 manufacturi...

39:6 many 14:12

56:18 58:15 87:22 89:11 98:12 107:3 108:19,19 110:20 113:16 115:10 122:7 122:8 175:4 189:20 223:14,22 map70:17 mapping

199:8 margin 236:8 marginal 230:6 Mark3:1 5:8

35:10 37:21 38:16 80:15 80:16 130:21 188:10,11 192:12 203:12 206:6 212:10 218:3 219:17,18 220:8,10,17 221:20 223:5 224:14,18 236:4 251:12 mark-ups33:4 market 16:14

17:1 20:6 21:6,11 22:17,17 24:22 27:21 27:22 57:19 60:2 64:10 66:19 75:11 84:15,16 85:2,6 86:15 98:3,6 107:12 108:7 109:7 135:13 143:11 147:12 194:12,20 235:19 236:1 253:13,18 255:8 marketplace

134:18 135:5 marking 33:3 Marshal 70:15 Marshall 2:16

5:2 11:8 50:17 54:13 151:3 159:7 177:1,13 179:5 183:12 233:13,16 239:11 254:19 261:22 262:12 match 107:22

110:1 196:17 matching 52:5

83:21 material 12:17

12:21 13:21 19:11 23:14 24:3 191:1 239:9 materials 12:4

12:9 13:4 19:2 23:9 31:21 203:17 203:20 208:19 math 36:4

37:11 139:3 matter 119:2

140:6,7 218:17 219:7 231:12 232:14 234:18 255:3 260:21 matters21:1

22:3 206:9 225:13 max96:5 99:1 maximum

29:13 173:1 Maxtech 96:5

111:17 112:12,16 113:15,17 may 1:6 24:16

27:1 58:3,3 60:5,8 67:3 71:14 76:16 76:17 78:3 88:17 147:18 150:2,2 168:14 176:6 180:14 181:3 216:7 218:8 222:6,8,9 224:9 229:9 252:22 265:6 265:13 maybe22:3

25:21 28:18 30:9,10 32:9 36:19 40:7 45:12,20 56:3,20 57:1 57:22 78:11 78:14 88:3 91:1 92:11 94:17 95:18 97:17 98:1,1 100:20 104:22 106:13 108:11 114:3 119:9 124:15 127:19 137:10 148:13,18 155:3 160:11 171:15 172:18 181:21 182:6 184:15 205:18,19 212:10 215:3 216:3 217:13 218:17 225:8 227:2 228:11 229:17 231:17 236:19 240:7 240:12 243:14 256:1

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 262:12,22,22 264:2 Mays5:22 MBCs31:22 McCABE2:12

6:15,15 McCADDEN

126:10,10 McCRUDDEN

2:17 4:15,15 MCX93:10,12 mean 10:2,9

21:6 25:17 25:20,20,21 33:16 34:7 34:21 35:5 38:7 39:17 40:6,6 53:19 57:5 59:22 60:16 61:22 62:6 63:14 64:14 70:2 72:13 80:2 96:16 98:1 101:15,16 103:4,5,7 107:1 110:18 114:6 116:14 132:9 134:4 136:7,14 137:6 138:11 140:3 147:9 149:9 155:16 156:1,15 160:12 162:19 163:15 164:4 164:5 170:18 171:20 173:4 173:7 174:1 178:16 180:22 181:4 181:6 184:20 185:15,21 186:18 188:19 194:11 197:17 205:20 211:17 213:13 214:19 215:2 216:5,8,12 217:15,20,21 218:17 219:6 221:1 224:9 226:5,13 227:14 229:5 229:15,19 231:10 232:3 241:18 247:3 255:22 258:19 259:8 260:7 261:3 262:7 265:5 means 8:16

16:18 27:3 36:21 106:18 136:9 142:13 195:12 200:3 202:17 207:14 216:10 222:11 225:13 226:5 226:9,12 227:16 252:6 meant 136:7

136:17 measure 82:13

82:14 125:3 189:3 measured

80:20 189:1 measurement

82:17 189:6 measureme...

83:1,3,5 median 18:21 91:21 92:9 95:15 meet 156:16

176:7 261:18 265:6 meeting 1:2

4:6 27:13 32:6 35:16 37:22 43:2 80:10 111:12 119:21 143:20 164:14 173:17 192:10 238:2 261:17 265:12 meeting's 18:5 meetings 8:7

43:14 173:17 Meg 3:5 5:13

15:6 26:6 29:21 31:5 59:14 101:20 101:21 102:19 125:7 members

108:16 192:11 194:15,16 249:11 memories

214:7 mention 145:8 mentioned

10:12 13:3 95:21 111:12 113:10 met 120:22 metal 118:6 method

153:18 160:3 170:5 metric63:3 67:22 154:9 154:15 155:4 156:1,5,9 157:16,20 176:12 262:5 metrics 121:21

122:1,12 124:2 Meyers3:12

6:7,9 MFR85:12 MIA 120:4,6,8

120:15,16 mic4:9 Michael 2:12

2:21 3:14 6:9 6:15 Mick 117:10 micro 93:1,8

93:14,14,19 94:10 Micrometl

75:9 Micrometyl

108:16 microphone

30:20 31:16 Mid-Atlantic

165:22 mid-March

74:13 middle 189:1 Midwest

205:10 207:6 might 14:11

30:4 34:19 35:21 41:13 41:14 46:3 46:10 48:5,6 61:18,19 68:22 78:11 133:15,21 134:2 138:14 140:19 148:21 155:21 161:20 165:17 173:2 197:15 217:1 217:2 225:21 250:19 252:17 253:17 Mike3:15,21

5:12 6:9,19 42:1 126:10 millions 94:3 mind 57:18

63:10 64:12 125:13 174:14 180:22 183:15 mine 124:22 minor 141:7

143:5 176:18 minus 163:14 minute 14:19

50:15 240:12 minutes48:15

49:17 251:9 Mislak2:18

4:17,17 193:10,13 194:13,16,22 195:21 misleading

247:1 missing

151:16 152:17,18 193:14 Mitsubishi

4:22 10:6 158:22 253:7 mixed 249:12 mixing 161:5

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 mode 141:20

141:21 model 16:13

20:8 28:16 50:22 53:9 53:11,12 57:2 67:5 77:9,9,11,12 77:12,12 80:5,6 83:6 86:3,3 92:6 114:7 180:17 192:21 196:6 196:7,12 228:14 249:2 251:2,3,7 modeling

173:11 198:17 236:3 modelled

173:11 models 12:12

12:16 43:6 43:17 44:12 44:21 58:2 91:4 107:3,4 111:22 148:18 151:2 160:13 162:5 163:2,3,4 180:18 184:17 196:9 moderate

166:11 modes 142:9 modified

259:4 modifying

210:15 modulating

109:22 moisture23:4 moments7:8 money222:16 222:16 224:19 monotonically

69:11 Monte 179:21 more 14:7,9,9

14:14,15 16:2 19:1 22:1 23:1,8 23:12 25:12 26:7 27:4 32:21 36:13 36:22 40:4,9 42:9,12 44:17 47:19 55:9 56:21 57:3,13,14 57:22 58:21 61:3,4 62:22 64:6,7 68:7 70:13 71:9 71:21 72:4 74:11,22 76:21 78:10 79:9 80:3 81:5 82:1 89:9 97:10 101:10 102:11 103:16 104:2 104:6,15 105:6,9 107:7,7 109:11,18 114:5 116:20 121:16 123:2 123:22 131:13 132:1 134:2,6,9 135:11 137:21 138:20 140:8 146:15 147:6 148:6 154:1 154:12 155:21 156:3 156:3 157:8 157:13,13 159:17 162:13 163:7 163:11 166:11 167:5 167:15 168:15 170:6 170:20 172:2 172:16 176:1 177:20 179:6 180:19,21 181:7 184:5 185:1,1,10 186:5 190:22 193:7,20 196:7 197:2 202:18 203:7 203:8 204:11 205:13,22 206:1 211:8 211:9,20 213:21 214:10,19 215:11,13 216:2 218:9 218:12 229:1 229:7,17 231:3 251:19 251:20 252:19 253:1 254:3 260:20 261:6 262:9 263:10 264:13,15,20 265:1 morning 4:3

10:21 14:2 46:15 89:8 120:19 128:8 130:4 146:12 147:18 148:8 237:15 most 12:11,22

13:6,15 14:5 22:20 24:16 31:20 58:14 76:22 156:16 159:21 176:21 184:14 188:17 193:2 193:14 212:4 motion 178:12

233:14,17,19 motive254:13 motor68:22 motors215:12 Mountain

166:5 move27:8

41:17 48:9 55:16 94:6 99:7 111:7 135:13 152:1 152:5,19 157:8,11 174:22 177:3 177:6 180:8 187:9 199:1 231:18 232:16,20 237:22 239:14 247:9 258:1 moving55:7

64:21 75:4 84:11 178:17 179:9 189:15 226:18 235:8 235:9 MPCs 112:2 MPV35:3 36:7

37:3,10 much 22:3

26:15 42:3 43:4 47:3,9 47:13 53:21 55:12 60:22 65:22 69:22 72:16 78:1,9 78:10 81:3 82:6 84:12 91:19 101:9 102:14 106:14 107:10 108:19 140:6 144:10 154:8 170:9,16 173:4 178:6 178:7 180:14 189:11 207:2 207:3,8,11 208:18,20 211:18 219:12,22 229:12 255:5 259:7 261:5 multi 246:11 multiple 13:3

60:10 85:5 145:3 179:2 190:12 multiples

175:7 multiply 174:6

230:12 multistage

245:6 multizone

245:21 246:1 Murphy3:16

6:10 must68:13 N N 4:1 12:10

117:7,7,7 NA242:7

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 nail 150:4,5 name4:8,19

159:16 named 238:5 names5:21

6:3 8:17 national 36:7

36:15 129:22 129:22 171:10 176:21 253:15,19,19 254:8 255:10 natural 5:13

139:22 Navigant6:17

6:18 7:2,4,6 10:22 18:8 31:18 42:19 48:14 60:3 62:12 109:5 111:10 127:14 Navigant's

63:11 NDAs 185:7 near 188:14 near-term

124:16 nearly 140:10 necessarily

44:7 54:5,9 69:10 93:3,6 102:14 156:14,15 163:22 169:3 169:6 197:14 245:22 necessary

74:19 220:19 230:20 NEEA8:13

17:2 41:9 52:18 68:1 71:11 92:4 133:5 145:16 160:5 169:7 177:18 180:10 197:8 207:13 need 44:5 46:3

96:17 100:4 104:13 106:15 107:3 107:6,8,10 118:16 137:4 144:9 151:12 151:15 159:10 163:17 176:6 177:11 179:12 189:10 193:20 194:1 194:1 195:5 195:22 207:2 219:12 229:9 231:18 233:14 234:14 239:8 241:1,12 242:6 243:15 needed 69:15

169:22 needing

166:17 needs45:4

58:10 252:22 negates 83:19 negative73:17

126:22 127:1 negotiate

126:7 137:11 181:18,20 negotiated 4:5

8:17 122:5,6 122:14 123:6 124:11,14 126:13 negotiating

9:22 121:6 178:20 negotiation

149:18,19 neither266:8 net 14:9,10,12

15:17 17:19 17:21 18:10 18:14 29:12 29:13 33:10 263:6,7,11 263:16,20 264:9,10 never 100:4

169:22 170:5 new4:11 28:5

77:17,22 80:2 83:16 86:13,14,16 86:17 89:8 98:18 100:4 100:5,9 106:16,18 112:13 120:21 147:11 151:12 158:15 165:22 184:21 191:17 197:2 209:16,16 210:5,11,13 210:16 234:21 235:20 236:1 248:12 249:3 250:4,21 254:1 newer 79:20 newly-install...

248:5 next91:5,9 95:11 139:20 144:8 158:15 158:16 175:1 195:21 198:8 219:13 250:17 258:22 261:18 nice 138:18

186:20,21 219:8,13 Nick2:18 4:17

194:4 195:9 Nick's 192:2

192:11 nickel 150:20 night 159:14 nights210:21 nine 194:22

195:7 nobody74:11

87:9 143:22 NODAs 184:21

185:17 noise 11:15 nominal 89:16

94:22 250:9 non- 151:16

174:9 non-compre...

191:12 247:10 non-conden...

12:7 non-econom...

166:19 174:3 non-represe...

95:15 non-represe...

91:17,20 95:15 none73:21

202:21 NOPR 11:22 28:10 73:11 73:22 145:3 152:22 183:19 184:2 184:7,12 186:1 257:4 257:9 261:1 nor266:9,12 normal 124:19

185:3,19 normally 184:9

186:2 245:14 north 166:1,1

234:13 northern

131:22,22 Northwest5:6

166:5 notable25:18 note37:16

124:7 179:10 247:12 258:11 259:21 261:2 noted 27:18

195:8 206:16 227:20 nothing27:15

120:21 212:4 notice 115:20 notwithstan...

42:4 NPC33:4 NRDC 15:7

26:6 29:21 101:22 NRIL 161:1

162:4 nuance 147:7 number 14:11

16:10 29:1 29:11 35:16 38:15 63:17

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 70:19 73:17 74:3,4 77:14 88:4 108:10 110:22 111:22 113:4 113:11,19 118:18 119:2 130:3,10,12 136:4 139:21 143:4 145:11 145:17 147:14 151:20 157:7 162:1 167:15 171:12,15 178:1,1 188:22 205:2 206:11 212:9 223:18 225:7 225:21 226:4 228:2,8,9,13 234:3 250:12 257:13 261:9 263:10 numbered

99:13 numbers 15:5

18:6 20:22 26:8 27:14 29:9,18 31:7 34:7,17,22 35:2 36:9 38:1 68:3 69:17 70:14 70:20 72:14 73:1,2 74:1 81:5,6,16 107:15 108:8 109:4 137:18 139:3,12 144:10,20,22 148:17 151:21 152:11,14,15 152:22 159:11 160:19 161:9 169:10 173:20,21 174:4 177:14 177:17 178:7 178:14 180:5 181:1,5,7,12 187:5,8 188:19 189:7 191:6 192:15 193:8,19 195:10,12,15 196:8 204:5 204:7 205:14 216:9 220:1 222:9 223:9 223:10,11 224:10,18 230:1,13 231:15 232:12,20 236:6,9 247:14 255:17,20 256:12 257:18 258:4 258:22 259:15,15,17 259:18 262:21 263:14 nuts236:20 O O4:1 117:7,7,7 objective

197:18 observation

102:16 observe

121:22 observed20:6 obstructions 210:2 obtaining

75:10 obviously9:12

99:3 137:7 175:22 197:10 227:19 262:21 occur23:2

141:14 247:20 occurring

23:11 odd 142:7 OEMs214:15 off5:21 10:3

30:7,8 45:10 49:22,22 51:5 117:4 119:11 136:5 137:13,14 142:20 144:4 150:15,19 156:12 180:8 187:17 191:3 203:15 205:20 265:7 off-line46:22 offer53:16

220:10 offering 189:8 office 162:22 offset 144:17

151:14 often 24:17

86:8 264:21 oh 18:13 19:15

55:1 56:4 63:1 71:3 86:1 105:18 116:2 117:11 119:11,15 123:15,18 127:15 136:10 152:12 186:7 187:15 193:10 207:6 222:4 248:8 oil 38:7,7

140:1,3 oil-fired 13:20 okay 17:15

19:15 26:12 32:10 34:21 42:15,16,17 47:2 49:13 50:7 54:7 55:1,2,6 56:10 68:18 68:19 69:3 72:10 74:19 79:2,5 80:13 86:1 88:2 91:6,9,13 92:3 101:7 111:4 114:21 114:21 115:16 117:3 117:9,9 118:16 119:7 120:12,14 123:18 127:22 129:18 135:17 136:10 137:12 138:9 140:22 147:5 152:15 157:14 159:5 163:20 183:2 183:11 187:16 189:15 195:2 196:2 199:1 212:8 217:10 217:21 218:4 220:21 221:10 222:4 224:14 227:1 228:18,22 233:12,16,19 235:8,9 236:14,15,17 237:21 240:2 241:3 243:21 247:9 256:4 258:1 264:14 old 77:22

79:19 88:15 151:2 210:9 older86:12

180:20 once46:3,4

53:6 95:17 107:9 122:10 122:20 159:9 167:18 230:8 one's220:3 one-252:18 one-third

174:11 ones58:19,22

68:4 77:10 83:16 85:9 192:16 256:21 ongoing 8:20 onto218:9 open 115:22

185:9 256:22 opening 106:4 openings

210:14 operate59:5

175:7 operating 69:1

167:5 175:5 operation 23:3

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 23:12 36:17 155:11 156:9 214:11 operator

208:17 opinion 85:11

134:18 171:18 172:1 220:8 opportunities

126:6 133:18 opportunity

133:14,22,22 135:12 245:16 opposed 38:8

56:1 59:7 134:10 247:14 opposite78:7

234:10 option 22:21

24:14 25:12 options 104:1

104:2 orange 166:12 order 16:10

27:6 43:21 51:21 57:11 58:16 77:4 90:1 93:4 151:18 156:16 241:10 orders25:12 organization

4:9 organizations

121:12 123:7 124:12 original 83:19

228:9 229:22 252:3 originally 11:21 12:6 178:4 os 159:2 otherwise 9:6

42:2 96:3 109:21 142:2 266:12 ours88:14

159:2 outcome88:9

266:13 outdoor 16:15

16:17 17:1 47:15,16 164:20 167:13 outlet81:13 outlier58:14 output 141:2 outs35:13 outside71:16

103:13 133:15 134:13,17,18 134:21 135:1 154:9 167:20 outstanding

237:15 outweigh

255:15 ovens93:16

94:2,2 over 11:2,5

12:20 14:3 28:2 29:18 41:18 73:9 116:1 127:20 135:19 139:20 140:11 143:6 155:11 164:16 188:16 189:16 196:21 207:8 233:4 236:22 240:6 256:14 overall 36:14

119:20 120:3 132:20 135:5 160:15 168:4 253:18 overcome

59:8 overestimati...

147:20 overlap216:19

216:21 217:16 220:22 overly55:12 overnight

239:21 263:1 overview43:1 overwhelms

37:9 own 79:10

123:7 124:12 248:3 Owned 5:3 owner77:4

225:5 P P4:1 p.m 117:5,8

118:15 187:18,19 265:12 Pacific 151:3

159:7 166:5 package 138:8

162:13 packaged

162:7 256:10 packages

162:16 Page240:11 pages266:4 pales250:22 panels 140:17 paper 118:5 parent 153:17 part8:9 12:21

21:19 42:12 57:17 68:7 90:5 100:9 100:18 109:11 110:10 122:5 143:12 158:7 171:3 182:8 222:14,15 235:14 parte 185:5 participating

194:9 particular 18:2

44:9 56:13 57:2 61:9 72:13 76:1,1 81:8 110:9 127:1 147:13 175:20 178:6 249:10 particularly

43:18 179:7 parties266:9

266:11 partly85:19 parts 13:21

24:8 40:7 186:19 pass23:17,19

41:18 43:8 44:18 194:2 passed 50:14 passthrough

23:16 past38:18

122:19 125:6 125:10 180:21 path 52:6,6,8

52:11,11 55:8,16 112:15,16,18 paths 112:14

145:3 190:12 patience 9:14 pattern 253:20 Paul 2:14 4:22

10:5 158:21 253:7 pay 140:15

158:9 225:20 payback 18:21

33:9,12 34:9 36:5 189:17 259:9,19 260:8,8 261:9 paybacks

259:12 paying226:2 peak 100:14

159:10 peculiar 143:7 penalized

33:14 people 14:16

16:3 20:10 27:1 29:17 36:22 37:1 45:1,13 82:10,16 86:3 121:11 137:8 205:13 208:15 220:16 223:10 239:7 245:20 255:2 per 19:2 115:6

153:6 204:13 205:4 208:9 223:7 227:9

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 227:11 percent 12:12

12:13 13:15 14:6 16:3,7,8 16:8,9,11,22 17:1,22 18:10,14 19:8,8,9 20:8 20:8,9 21:5,5 21:9 22:4 24:1 25:13 25:13,14 27:11,11,11 27:21,22 28:11 32:5,7 33:9 54:4 56:16 69:16 81:16 88:6 98:14,18 99:16 106:16 106:17,18 107:1,6,8,9 110:3,11 116:3 128:16 128:17 133:15 134:13,17,18 134:21 135:1 135:5 140:11 150:20 168:22 169:5 169:9,10,14 172:3 173:12 173:19 174:2 174:7,10 176:21,22 177:20,22 180:19,19 206:2 236:1 238:20,22 241:4,7,10 242:3 243:4 243:8,9,9,13 244:5,6,12 248:1,7,8,12 252:2 253:18 254:4 255:6 256:14 257:3 257:5,6,7,9 257:10 260:5 263:5,15,16 263:19,21,21 264:5,9,10 264:13 percentage

27:9 33:14 36:21 53:17 53:20 54:3 85:14 108:6 132:20 167:3 178:16 222:8 248:5,6 264:16 percentages

12:15 20:14 20:14 170:6 170:7 perfect 135:2

156:2,5 169:21 170:4 perfectly

166:13 172:3 173:2 performance

38:19,19 51:17,21 52:1,9 60:17 61:2 73:6 110:15,17 125:4,16 164:1 244:21 performed

245:9 performs

138:21 perhaps 62:7

69:15 150:8 163:20 period 23:10 periods

189:17 person 4:8

20:1 205:15 personally

169:4 174:14 180:6 PG&E 5:2 11:9

50:18 54:14 70:15 177:1 233:13 239:11 254:19 261:22 phone 121:14

183:1 phrased

204:22 phrasing

183:12 physical

213:14 215:6 pick33:11

63:11 92:8 104:8 166:20 167:18 186:18 231:17 picked 58:3

60:12 95:4 167:17 picking 114:7

261:8 picture 165:11 piece62:22

101:4 118:5 190:20 238:10,19 241:21 246:15,17 pieces 135:14 piping 210:7 pit94:9 place 125:15 125:17 151:17 184:10,19 plain 10:17 plan 254:17 planning 38:1

196:8 platform 112:3 play 138:15

223:5 players 195:1 plays 140:12 plaza 117:17

118:20 234:1 265:8 plead 159:11 please4:8

11:11 31:6 plug 70:4 plugged

223:10 plus33:13

58:2 86:17 88:19 165:16 176:7 225:10 PNNL 160:19

162:5 163:2 163:4 podium 11:10 point9:18,19

10:4,7 36:3 46:17 47:18 58:18 61:9 62:15 64:2 67:21 69:1 78:12 80:9 82:9 83:8 87:16 96:1 96:17 105:20 106:2 111:7 113:1 121:6 121:17 127:10 133:6 133:10 139:13 149:4 153:2 160:2 162:4 163:13 168:3 170:8 172:6 178:16 179:3 180:1 180:8,11,12 181:16 182:2 186:17 191:20 194:1 198:6 206:2 206:8 207:14 215:17,17 226:15 231:16 232:5 232:13 237:5 260:9,10,11 260:16 265:2 pointed 238:7 pointing 32:14

123:19 260:21 points45:9

51:20 77:20 93:9 110:8 121:18 124:2 153:20 227:15 238:14 264:15,16 policy 150:17

150:22 160:9 181:5,18 231:20 232:14 pop84:22 population

145:21 169:21 174:12 portion 37:9

255:7 portrait78:16

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 79:12 80:5 pose 127:7 position

181:17 positions79:3

218:21 positive 14:12

36:7,14 positively

197:15 possibilities

121:7 possible30:1

47:4 57:5 101:6 121:16 193:8 196:2 245:5 252:22 Postal 234:11 potentially

44:21 45:3 57:7 89:12 97:16 160:12 193:19 196:1 pound227:11 pounds

202:21 208:17,18 power48:5

52:14,16 55:13,15 56:1,7,15 58:13 61:8,8 62:3 63:18 68:10 73:13 74:6,10,16 154:15,17 209:18 PowerPoint

7:14,15 50:19 powers 74:2 PPI 202:3,9 practicalities

132:10 practice38:12 pre- 171:13

184:9 precedent

8:22 precedent-s...

10:13 precooling

172:18 predicted

171:15 predicting

39:3 166:9 prediction

164:13 prefer39:10

197:17 preliminary

120:4 186:2 premium

210:20 prepare 141:4 prepared 45:6 prescriptive

125:3,17 126:12,14,17 present29:12

29:13 108:2 120:4 141:1 143:18 144:7 210:6 250:12 presentation

18:9 28:18 42:21 74:21 75:8 111:16 117:1 187:11 presentations

18:5 presented

26:5 89:15 111:20 112:9 143:3 202:13 presenting

43:10 presents 133:17 147:10 pressure57:7

57:11,13,22 58:2 59:6,9 60:6,7 68:13 68:17,21 75:10,12,14 76:11,13 77:14 78:10 80:18 81:7 81:11 84:1 97:12 145:18 148:14,20 161:4,6 219:19 pressures

160:11 180:16,20,21 188:8,14 presumably

77:3 90:15 presume

259:20 presumption

19:1 pretty 10:15

42:3 62:9,12 85:13 101:13 106:14 107:10 180:17 187:7 189:11 191:19 204:8 205:16 207:11 211:21 223:12 236:7 241:9 245:16 248:6 253:20 254:18 259:17,17,19 previous 17:13 68:4 previously

27:19 35:7 111:20 145:10 price31:21

33:3,5 66:12 139:16,16 202:5 203:19 203:21,22 204:4 218:9 221:5 225:21 226:1,1 229:20 prices 12:21

13:21 31:21 32:21 41:4,6 139:19,20 201:18,21 202:1,2 205:11 217:15 primarily86:5 primary

196:13 print 15:1 printed 144:16

144:17 printing 7:21 printouts30:1

30:11 prior 124:9

213:11 privately46:20

122:5,6 123:6 124:11 privileged

44:22 probably

13:12 38:14 39:1 45:20 53:7 55:11 57:14 60:21 64:7 76:17 76:22 82:5 83:18 85:10 88:21 108:7 124:18,21 132:13 149:12 153:21 170:6 173:4 193:22 195:1 213:14 216:10 225:6 226:14 229:8 244:13,18 262:21 265:2 problem 21:9

78:1 84:6 138:10 153:20,20 154:4,5,6,13 232:7,8 problems

21:22 226:14 procedure

68:14 110:4 134:22 157:21 158:7 158:16 proceed

174:20 191:21 proceedings

266:8 process 65:2

100:13 122:11 124:20 141:13 158:11 182:8 183:15,16 185:8,19 187:3 198:13 214:2 254:15 254:16 producing

244:13,19

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 product 18:22

24:11,11 25:14,16 29:7 34:8 35:6 37:1 44:14 47:9 61:12,12 65:20 86:7 86:17 91:16 104:2,6 112:4 130:9 134:6,8 217:6 250:14 250:16 production

15:12 26:16 31:14 33:2 products

21:11 28:12 60:1 64:13 76:3 84:17 86:12 102:7 112:6 125:14 257:16,17 profiles45:7

46:6 48:4 51:9 59:18 60:10 program 82:21 programs 63:8

245:12 projecting

202:1 prolong23:6 promptly

121:16,16,16 235:6 pronounced

42:12 proper34:14 properly70:20

144:1 158:17 property 118:7

118:10,12 proportionat... 202:16 proposal

182:13 propose65:4

65:5 233:2 proposed 29:1

127:2 251:3 251:8,17 258:8 260:22 261:1 262:8 263:6 proposing

136:22 protect47:5 protected 47:6 protects

224:22 prototype's

162:22 prototypes

161:2,18 162:21 proves 172:2 provide8:19

20:22 45:3 97:17 160:1 194:17 197:2 provided

130:8 197:14 provides

249:2 providing

227:17 provisions9:5 proximity

206:21 proxy 16:13

203:6 207:20 216:13 221:9 PTAC257:6 public3:19

6:14 61:1 122:5 253:13 publicly61:1 publicly-49:7 pull 18:5 50:15 pulled 82:5 pulling 216:9,9 pump257:4 pumps256:10 purchase

12:21 13:21 31:21 purple93:11

93:11 166:12 purposes 90:9

98:5 154:10 pursuant

123:4 push 27:4,6

71:21 pushing

149:20 put20:12

39:20 42:3 57:6 63:1 70:13 78:14 82:5 83:20 126:5 136:2 136:14 150:14 176:8 177:5 179:20 184:21,22 194:4 203:15 211:7,9,12 211:20 214:22 216:15 218:12 220:9 223:3 234:21 240:6,6 241:13 243:10 246:1 253:12 puts 146:2 putting26:17

106:20 157:12 241:21 245:13 250:4 puzzling 36:3 Q quads 130:14

171:15 181:21,21 qualitatively

165:13 quality239:13 quantity

168:12 quarter 163:15

163:16 question 10:8

17:15 21:3 22:16 25:11 28:8 34:10 34:11 35:4 37:14 40:10 45:12 59:15 60:3 63:14 72:22 79:8 80:18 82:9 82:10 89:1 96:13 99:9 104:20 115:20 119:22 120:18 124:5 126:18 129:19 130:12,21 132:2 139:10 148:9 150:11 158:13 159:1 174:13 175:3 192:2 193:2 193:11 196:6 204:21 206:15 208:12,12 209:8,15 221:11 222:2 224:15 231:20 236:18 240:18 242:5 242:22 244:8 250:1 251:13 252:1 262:1 264:3,22 questions

8:14 9:7,18 17:17 31:3 34:13 35:15 35:16,17 41:17 84:11 116:20 119:10 121:20 127:8 127:21 128:1 128:6 135:18 138:14 145:16 183:14 188:13 191:3 203:13 205:22 206:1 220:11,12,13 220:17 236:9 237:22 263:1 queue 181:20 quick49:1

130:21 145:16 185:20 194:1 195:21,22 251:13 quickly 11:16

193:8 quiet 11:11 quite9:16

18:14 33:19 67:15 86:8 105:14,16

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 145:20 147:2 172:9 205:20 252:17 R R4:1 117:7 rack 125:8 raise 119:17

119:19 136:19 raised 80:9,14

262:1 raises42:5 ran 195:19 Randy64:16 range24:3

73:20 85:21 89:21 114:7 156:20 207:9 223:9 256:17 Rangers

234:22 Ransom 6:3 rate67:9

173:12 257:3 257:7 rated 20:8 rates249:4

256:4,13 rather69:17

131:14 133:12 135:12 148:16 265:2 rating 65:16

65:17 67:1,4 154:1 160:3 ratio36:6 ratios 93:15 raw 12:21 Ray3:15 6:9 re-ask208:12 reach 205:12

223:2 225:16 225:17 reached 193:1

194:13 reaction 105:7 read 5:21 6:2

152:13 218:5 230:5 reading 36:8

85:14 264:8 ready7:22

120:1,2,15 real 39:1

142:10 169:19 170:3 175:6,15 202:2 230:17 256:13 257:3 257:7 reality63:5

177:20 180:4 208:14 realize 97:14

140:4 255:10 really 13:20

22:12 23:1 26:8 37:17 40:6,7 63:3,4 72:22 73:1 75:14 82:15 84:1,3 89:8 92:15 95:16 96:18 107:2 107:6,19 108:2 110:7 121:4 130:7 133:11,15 143:22 144:10 157:20 158:6 162:6 164:6 166:16 167:7 170:10,14,16 171:4,6,7,22 172:5,7,20 173:10 175:18 176:18 180:2 181:11 183:22 186:14 188:16 206:9 207:15 208:9 208:22 211:18 215:4 222:20 225:13 226:7 226:8 230:5 230:13 246:22 249:19 253:12 259:7 realm 121:7 reason 29:6

59:4 80:20 104:19 114:11 128:11 130:2 137:10 140:18 196:20 224:6 224:11 227:14,16 reasonable

62:12 85:2 90:10 95:18 101:15,16 143:11 160:21 161:10 162:17,18 166:13 167:4 173:13 177:22 178:1 189:8 217:22 219:20 231:2 reasonably

89:21 reasons254:5 recalibrate 249:1 recap 8:4

175:2 received 75:21

191:17 251:7 254:21 recent 12:22

31:21 256:7 256:7,8 recess 30:14

50:2 117:6 187:18 recollection

122:19 recommend...

124:11 126:2 231:16 233:7 recommended

124:15 reconciles

35:1 record 30:7,8

30:16,18 49:22 50:1,5 50:5 51:5 117:4 119:9 119:12,14,15 126:6 139:12 186:8 187:17 188:1 219:9 219:14 220:2 232:10 265:7 266:7 red 166:7,11

168:6 redesign

254:1 redo 177:7

182:14 redone 177:5 reduce23:6

86:9 113:4 130:11,18 reduced 156:12 266:5 reducer81:2 reducers 81:1 reducing

241:22 reduction

168:18 reference

239:14 references

257:12,20 refine 109:15

109:17 reflect 12:22

139:12 237:5 reflected

28:12 128:16 221:22 reflects 197:15 refrigerants

23:18 refrigeration

57:21 156:7 regarding

75:10,12 128:7 regardless

214:6 244:9 region 165:21

167:2 168:18 176:13 regions

131:22 132:1 167:5 regneg 122:6 regulation

122:3 125:11 regulatory

122:11 124:19 126:1 reiterate27:1 rejected

126:15 127:2

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 relate50:20 related 44:2

266:8 relating 204:9 relationship

93:7 relative78:20

108:5 128:10 129:21 160:16 164:1 170:21 181:12,17 218:20 266:10 relatively 19:4

29:8 178:15 release 195:14 relevant34:11

77:1 157:5 171:9 reliable 140:15 reloading

175:21 reluctant

44:18 remain 9:22

206:12 214:6 remains24:8

52:14 remember

17:20 33:1 51:9 93:14 121:19 178:19 222:11 235:5 253:8 reminded

38:17 reminder

74:18 reminders

30:19 reminding

17:6 remittance 120:4 remove 175:17 removed

200:17 239:4 reopen 256:3 repair 131:12

191:11,12 247:20 248:2 248:11 250:1 250:21 252:16 253:10 repair-replace

248:16 250:20 repairing

131:14 248:9 250:3 repairs 191:13

247:10,12,16 249:11 repeat27:13

28:21 190:11 228:6 rephrase

208:11 replace 87:8

90:2 131:13 248:6 251:13 252:16 253:10 replaced 47:12

210:6,14 254:15 replacement

87:10 90:2 100:10 106:17 190:19 200:7 200:13,16 201:15 210:4 235:18 238:1 238:4 239:4 243:5,11,16 243:18 244:1 250:3,6 251:18 254:17 261:4 261:13 replacements

191:2 210:4 255:17 replacing

88:19,20 131:14 140:16 246:15 250:2 report 109:3

120:22 162:5 reported 76:13

201:22 reporter4:11

22:11 266:1 266:4,17 reporting

108:22 represent

60:17 97:21 114:7 representati...

93:19 representative

51:12 58:20 58:22 59:16 60:14 62:5 62:10 162:1 181:3 194:20 209:6 represented

123:8 126:3 176:13 representing

173:2 represents

98:21 132:19 133:1 169:19 reprogramm... 229:10 reputable85:4

226:13 255:3 request 177:6

182:14 191:18 194:14 199:3 require89:12

90:1,20 91:8 98:18 200:4 required 96:7

97:12 98:13 105:21 200:8 214:8 requirement

54:15 58:2 68:21 96:2 156:17 184:12,18 185:20 requirements

9:6,9 requires

128:18 requiring

177:4 research

101:14 253:14,20 reset251:14 residential

21:19 76:18 88:3 122:2 125:12 140:8 256:21 257:9 resistant23:8

23:13 25:13 resolve47:13 resolved 47:19 resource

239:13 Resources

5:14 respect 197:5 206:13 respectively

201:5 responded

205:15 respondent

205:13 respondents

188:18 193:4 204:8 response34:6

42:6 112:10 116:21 127:11 188:15 218:5 218:8 responses

36:1 rest 14:1 45:3

97:22 208:19 242:10 result36:17

89:12 122:4 123:4 124:10 239:4 261:5 resulted

206:17 resulting

176:12 results 11:6

13:2 14:4 17:14 28:17 29:2 43:3,5 45:16 55:12 111:14 142:5 143:7,18 144:8 147:10 154:14,18 165:6 168:2 191:14 238:16 245:7 259:2 resume265:13 resuming

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 30:14 50:2 187:18 retail 33:5 retailers

255:11,16 retrofit253:22 retrofits

254:14 return 37:14

71:1,5,18 78:7 140:15 188:14 returning

127:15 revealed 47:4 review44:3

49:17 91:1 95:3 252:9 reviewed

49:14 reviewing

159:14 revised 37:17

144:9 152:21 152:22 RFI 183:16

184:6,13 Richard 3:16

6:10 rid 167:12 right8:12 9:5

10:2 15:22 16:20,20 19:18 20:15 20:16,17,20 21:7 25:3,9 26:15 33:3 38:7 41:7,8 45:17 46:21 48:21 49:10 53:7,13 54:7 54:11,12,18 55:4 56:10 57:19 58:11 59:2 60:2 62:2 63:13 64:14 65:2 65:14 66:6 66:16,20 68:8 70:20 80:1,7 81:12 85:14,17 86:5,11 87:18 88:4 90:16 94:6 95:4 100:5,6 100:11 103:6 103:8,11 104:10 108:6 115:8,17 117:19 125:18 128:21 129:12,15,17 130:20,20 132:3,11 134:10 137:2 137:22 138:13 139:3 144:19 146:7 146:10 149:5 149:22 150:13,13,18 150:21 151:14 153:7 153:13 155:5 155:10,22 156:2,11 157:1,3 158:10 161:11,11 163:22 171:12 173:22 174:5 174:7 178:7 178:8 182:3 186:15 188:22 189:1 189:15 195:4 196:22 197:20,22 198:2,3,3,5 203:4,18 204:12 205:8 208:2,3,5 209:4 211:10 212:22 213:15,19 215:13 216:4 216:13 217:6 218:2 220:11 222:1,10,12 222:15,18 223:2 224:2 225:7 226:10 226:10,13,15 227:1,16,18 229:7 230:3 230:6,10,18 231:3 232:10 232:12 233:8 233:11 234:17,18 235:8 237:9 241:12,15,22 242:9,16,17 242:20,22 243:2 244:13 245:11,21 246:10 247:2 247:3,8 249:18 250:9 252:13 255:20 256:2 260:2 261:7 263:17,22 264:3 rip253:22 rises234:15 rising 153:7,9 risk24:19 25:5

224:19 road 232:9 ROBERT3:6 rolled 162:13 roof 11:14

206:17 209:17 210:11 253:22 254:14,22 255:17 rooftop25:21

28:7,11 104:6 room 1:13 4:8

104:15 118:18,22 121:10 133:16 194:8 195:19 244:22 253:17 265:9 ROSENQUIST

2:7 6:22 7:20 8:3 14:2 15:10,21 16:6,20,22 17:6 18:3 19:7,13,17 19:22 20:16 20:20 26:4 26:12 27:8 28:13,20 31:2,12 32:8 32:11,16 33:1 34:4 35:5 36:10 38:5,13 39:22 40:17 41:16 74:12 120:8,10 127:16,19 128:1,4 129:1,4,7,11 129:17,19 130:17,20 131:6,17 132:8,11,15 132:19 133:3 134:4 135:17 139:14 160:22 161:17 163:5 188:21 189:16 192:16 196:11 198:3 199:1 202:11 203:18 205:4 205:7 214:13 221:15,18 222:1,4,10 222:18 224:11 226:10,19,22 227:2,7,11 228:6,16,19 229:11 230:18 235:9 236:12 237:1 237:6,21 241:5,15 242:9,14,17 242:20 243:2 243:8,19,22 244:5 245:18 246:8,14 247:3,8 248:8,14,18 250:5,8,11 251:2,16 252:8,12 256:4 257:19 260:17 261:2 261:12 262:7 262:16,20 263:22 264:22 rotated 78:19

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 rotating

210:18 rough 107:10 roughly95:11

100:1 174:7 235:22 round 156:9

158:15,16 row 144:18

151:16,17 152:1,1,17 152:18,19,22 rows 51:16 RS202:17

216:9 222:11 225:13 226:5 226:9,12 RTU 16:18 rule 122:1,15

122:20 124:10 223:6 223:7,13 251:3,8,17 257:5,8 258:8 262:8 263:6 rulemaking

4:5 77:2 185:4 187:2 219:14 rulemakings

140:10 179:11 184:22 185:16 186:3 186:20 rules 124:9

153:16,19 185:5,12 256:8 run 43:14

159:22 running23:11

168:1 Rusty3:4 5:11 8:13 40:13 63:22 64:17 64:18 78:13 79:9 158:12 160:3 178:13 183:13 256:20 S S4:1 117:7,7,7 S.W 1:14 Sachs2:20

5:10,10 14:18 16:15 16:17,17,21 25:10,10,17 37:12 38:15 39:10 70:8 70:12 114:9 114:9,21 115:3,19 116:17 140:14 159:13 178:10 188:3 196:3 197:4 202:7 212:12 214:4,14 224:17 233:20,22 249:5,7,8,8 249:18 252:14 safer 115:18 safest9:8 safety23:16 sales 52:22

53:20 85:11 98:9 106:16 108:1,1 same 18:10

37:4 40:14 40:17 46:16 47:22 53:9 53:11,12 60:11,11 62:7,19 63:12,15,16 63:21 64:9 64:13 65:7 65:22 66:8 66:12 67:5,5 68:17,18 70:4 71:1,5 72:1 73:5,20 74:3 76:9,9 79:7,22 80:3 83:15,21 92:19 94:18 102:3,12 104:22 105:3 110:2,6 112:20 115:7 128:22 137:22 145:6 148:11 155:6 158:3 167:2 176:17 199:3 200:11 206:12 208:2 213:12,14,15 215:5,6 216:5,22 217:1 222:19 228:11 230:14 235:11 239:20 244:9 247:10,16 248:19 250:15 251:22 258:5 258:7 260:7 260:12 263:12,12 Sami 3:7 5:15 sample40:2,3 40:8,14,18 40:19,20 41:10 68:8 132:20 157:13 165:6 165:9 168:16 249:13 samples41:11

42:2 sanitized 45:4

45:5 SASI 10:17 sat 167:16 saturation

196:18 saturations

196:14 SAV52:19

64:22 240:17 241:2,4 244:2 246:22 247:6 save63:2,6 savings 14:7,7

14:8 15:18 26:11 29:3,4 36:17 37:9 56:22 129:20 129:22 130:11 156:3 171:11 172:11,16,21 198:21 saw27:17

28:21 46:15 73:22 74:4 128:11 129:21 130:13 183:5 190:2 191:6 192:17 199:6 199:7 200:14 201:19 202:13,19 222:19 235:12 247:11,15 248:20 258:5 259:5,9 say4:8 9:5

21:5 26:10 29:14 39:10 47:18 49:5 59:17,22 64:6,8 66:6 81:19 88:2 91:6,11,13 93:19 94:19 95:12 101:19 104:8 106:14 107:18 113:7 133:19 136:3 136:17 137:17 139:5 139:9 144:8 149:5,8,20 159:9 162:3 171:5 172:21 176:4 189:7 193:4 201:12 202:8 205:18 211:5,7,19 212:3 214:18 218:17 225:3 225:9 227:4 227:10 228:1 231:21 237:8 243:2 246:8 253:17 259:5 259:8 261:19 saying 10:18

21:8 24:22 35:13 46:1 53:8 56:19 58:19 65:11 72:9 77:8 92:20 109:20 116:15

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 146:14 169:8 169:11,15,20 171:6 173:8 175:18 203:15 212:10,21 215:3,16 217:15 222:22 227:20 232:6 241:1 255:1 255:2 256:5 264:3,6 says25:4 83:3

106:18 204:16 221:21 228:19 232:18 253:21 scale 99:5,7

105:15 207:15 208:22 212:17 220:20 228:3 228:8,9,11 228:14,15 scaling 105:14

212:7 215:15 215:16 217:12,21 221:2 scatter 168:3 SCEER 122:2 scenario 78:17

99:19 131:3 225:9,10 scenarios

131:2 schedule 11:7 scrapped

254:1 screen 7:13,14 7:21 55:16 scribble

151:15 se 115:6 seamless

12:10 search 84:22 seat 187:21 second 30:7

33:21 67:18 102:10 120:5 120:18 123:2 123:22 142:14 177:11,12 182:2 211:4 244:15 253:6 section 238:16 sector41:14 see4:12 7:12

18:5 19:15 30:11 31:3 33:8 34:13 34:16 36:7 36:12 51:14 51:16 52:3 52:14 53:6 53:21 54:1,3 62:2 63:17 65:13,20,20 67:10,15 69:3,7 72:3 72:13 77:7 79:10 83:12 93:9,11 95:8 96:20 98:19 99:4,5 108:4 112:18 130:12 140:13 144:2 144:22 145:4 149:10 153:8 157:7,18 158:4 160:8 168:4 170:16 178:11 182:10,10 183:18 184:1 184:2 187:10 188:1 191:8 191:9 195:13 198:4 200:3 200:8 202:2 216:1 220:14 220:14 221:3 221:4,5,12 224:9,9 232:20 234:14 235:3 238:13 243:17 249:2 256:2,12 258:16,20,22 260:6,14 263:3 265:7 seeing 28:14

41:13 59:4 65:7 107:12 114:4 157:1 260:5 seen 114:12

189:19 select24:18

86:20 90:19 95:1 selected 58:4

109:13 selecting

262:13 selection 54:1 sell 24:10

53:17,19 sell-up24:13 selling 108:10

108:19 send 30:5

229:15 sense37:21 38:16 56:2 61:21 72:18 81:5 84:8 92:11 104:18 114:20 134:3 167:6 178:22 179:1 181:1 208:21 218:14 227:8 251:1 sensitive

45:16 48:6 159:10 sensitivities

141:9 187:6 sensitivity

143:20 144:7 167:11 169:2 175:9,21 178:11 180:4 sent35:15

188:8,13 sentence

136:7 separate37:17

133:20 135:8 138:11 157:21 separately

166:20 series 179:16 served 134:19 service37:14

38:20,22 41:12 196:4 197:6 234:11 249:11 256:9 services 160:1 session

237:15 set8:7 16:18

17:13 69:19 76:13,15 89:3 90:1,2 105:3 125:15 125:16 134:9 164:20 208:15,15 209:6 232:19 setting 185:4 settle40:12 settled 142:17 seven 194:22

195:7 211:14 seventh

191:12 several 124:11

134:19 154:16 204:8 254:22 sewing 87:13 share 13:6

16:14 27:21 27:22 133:1 193:16,18,19 shared 48:1

259:15,18 shares 98:3,6 sharing 204:7 shaving

150:19 she's 163:1 sheer37:2 shift 152:16 shifted 16:4

258:18 shipment90:6

90:14 109:14 116:9 120:4 186:20 193:9 193:12 shipments

28:5,6,11,16 85:13 88:5 90:5,6,14 116:8 119:21 120:1,11,14 120:15,17

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 131:10 191:17 192:21,22 196:5,7,12 196:15,17 198:8,12,16 235:19 236:2 249:1,2 251:3,6 265:3 shipped

115:21,22 shipping

108:5,5,9 112:21 113:2 113:3,9,11 115:6 128:11 128:15 216:16 short88:1

188:14 195:19 shortcoming

198:4 shorter 124:17

125:1 131:4 should 7:21

27:8 33:21 46:19 47:5 59:1 70:6 106:21 127:20 130:7 130:11 136:22 142:15 148:5 151:13,18 158:14,14 160:18 164:15 169:3 171:5 177:8 182:9 185:15 186:16 190:11 191:21 201:12 212:3 212:5 215:15 225:5 227:2 230:5 242:15 249:16 251:11 257:12,15,16 258:21 264:6 shouldn't

83:10 186:15 207:15 213:17 215:16 217:15 show45:7

48:4 51:1,7 113:3,18 156:10 163:21 165:5 170:9 172:18 181:8 182:21 showed 28:10

51:10 213:11 246:20 showing 26:2

26:4 50:13 51:16 63:3 72:9 103:6 107:17,21 112:21 156:2 165:12 182:21 shown 13:19

18:20 27:9 80:19 124:8 180:3 182:16 243:18 259:16 shows 2:21

5:12,12 13:6 15:20 19:7 28:1,5 29:2 33:16 47:15 52:9 103:6 156:20 167:2 220:1 shuts 144:4 sic70:18 94:9

149:11 161:1 183:16 244:14 255:21 257:8 260:15 side4:12 8:2

45:21 75:1 82:6 111:11 129:12 140:9 156:13,18 158:20 172:17,17 180:17 188:14 sides210:17 sign 118:5 signal 166:21

208:16 significant

13:6 23:10 28:10 53:17 70:14 145:2 172:8 194:12 206:3,18 209:14 222:14 261:13,13 263:10 significantly

15:14 35:9 114:13 259:5 similar22:5

63:12 69:7 78:2,20 105:4 123:10 155:12 165:13 176:11 236:16 259:19 similarly52:9 141:22 simple 114:11

167:19 260:8 260:8 261:9 261:9 simpler 148:22 simplify

148:13 simply36:21

123:19 124:7 simulate70:20 simulated 45:8 simulation

71:7 164:22 simulations

141:11 166:9 169:17 179:21 since 10:8

43:1 44:8 86:18 99:15 111:16 120:22 156:8 157:14,15,16 172:9 181:10 239:2 257:12 258:13 Singer87:10

87:11 single 112:3

175:5 178:16 180:6,7 204:1 238:13 238:19 241:17,21 246:10 262:4 263:4 single-246:1 single-stage

204:2 single-zone

246:3,7 sit34:8 182:4 232:22 233:5 sites 85:4 sits29:13,14 sitting 187:4 situation 81:4

120:20 situations

97:3 size44:3 54:15

76:10,17,18 78:20 79:3 88:3,15 89:10,15 90:1,18,21 91:1,6 92:6,8 92:19 93:3,5 93:10 94:14 94:15,18 95:8,12 96:14 99:1 102:3,9 103:11,22 104:5,13,16 109:7 113:18 114:18 128:18 129:7 131:4 209:3 209:4 213:12 213:14,14,15 213:22 215:6 216:6 217:1 249:12 size-increas...

91:18 sizes 77:13

90:5 93:17 97:2 99:4 102:6,8,12 102:15 104:9 113:16 114:15 143:11 skip 160:7 slap39:5

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 slide 12:18

14:22 17:3 19:7 26:5 27:9 31:6,7,7 32:4,6,21 33:8,16,18 50:19 90:18 99:10 109:18 144:15,16 159:1 167:2 175:1 181:19 190:22 191:4 191:8,9 199:7 221:12 221:16,19 250:2,17 260:18 slides 11:3

50:22 85:16 99:12 141:1 160:8 191:13 213:11 258:22 slightly 142:12

143:1,12 165:17 188:16 189:4 189:4 217:1 236:11 259:3 slogan 38:17 slopes 73:15 slow 147:1 SMACCNA5:9

35:11 80:17 130:22 188:12 192:13 196:10 203:12 207:21 209:2 219:19 220:10 236:5 251:13 small 16:18 29:9 75:15 89:14 90:7 90:11 95:22 99:2,16 102:5 104:12 105:1,13,22 129:20 132:20 133:1 135:6,8 140:3 142:1 142:22 144:11 162:22 168:13 175:14 smaller 13:17

37:19 60:8 74:14 93:21 94:11 95:8 98:9 112:5 131:4 134:1 212:22 215:18 smallest

115:22 smoke209:19 smooth 157:9 softness 197:6 soil 161:13 solar 140:17 sold 77:3 solely202:4 solid 168:6 solution 232:4 solve 154:13 some8:14

11:12,19 13:11,16 15:4 19:5 20:4,10,13 22:18,19 42:9 43:18 43:20 44:3 44:13,19,21 44:22 45:1,4 45:19 46:10 46:10 47:11 62:3,8 70:14 71:14 72:3,4 72:19 73:22 74:1 80:13 81:20 82:5 84:7 85:16 88:22 89:2 90:22 96:17 97:1,2 102:6 103:17 104:2 109:5,12 120:17 124:8 125:8 126:2 128:1,6 134:9,12,20 136:2 138:20 139:3 141:5 143:7 145:16 147:1,18,19 148:15 149:4 149:11 157:2 157:16 158:20 159:14 160:19 166:9 169:13 172:15 178:20 180:4 180:22 184:5 184:7 191:20 193:17,18 196:5 197:17 198:1,11 204:5 205:13 212:10 215:4 220:17 226:19,21 227:8 229:5 229:6 231:2 232:4 237:11 239:15,16 245:7,16 255:15 256:20 somebody

61:17 140:14 180:8 somehow4:19

166:9 197:18 217:21 someone 18:4

20:15 42:4 89:3 119:5 238:5 something

16:11 21:15 22:5 23:12 25:18 31:13 42:5 47:1 48:6 53:1 61:18 75:15 82:13 83:10 83:10 92:19 94:18 95:13 97:15,18 124:16 133:19 135:8 136:5 137:7 138:19 141:16 158:8 159:15 169:4 170:4 184:4 185:20 204:15 213:22 220:7 221:8 226:8 226:14 231:7 231:17 238:7 249:16 265:3 sometimes

11:11 24:18 67:9 81:21 116:7 187:1 somewhat

58:20 164:10 232:9 239:2 somewhere

73:17 136:3 144:14 153:14 219:15 soon 9:21

100:19 187:16 196:2 sooner30:2

120:1 sophisticated

71:9 97:10 108:11 147:6 229:7 sorry29:21

31:7,18 32:2 32:18 66:4 75:17 99:12 116:18 118:8 118:17 152:7 152:12 161:13 162:20 163:5 188:6,11 192:3 193:10 201:11 208:4 212:15,19 236:19 237:16 242:11 252:12 sort9:1 18:18

19:10 21:6 21:10,11 22:17,17 24:11,22 37:20 48:8 60:11 61:13 72:19 83:17 83:19 98:15 102:11 105:5 105:7 106:22 126:2 131:18

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 134:6,9 143:9 145:4 147:21 148:10 157:8 164:6 166:8 175:18 176:10,20 180:4 191:18 200:8 214:7 217:18 226:6 229:3 241:16 sorts25:1 Sound 256:3 sounds40:6

85:17 101:8 137:21 195:2 219:17 221:8 224:18 226:19 246:12 256:2 source 191:1

226:13 238:7 239:8 sources

196:13 south 166:3,3

166:4 234:5 South-Atlantic

166:2 southern

132:1 space 111:2

133:17 span 89:20

131:5 179:21 193:3 speak4:8,10

4:13 20:1 30:20 31:16 137:18 204:22 speakers

11:10 speaking 4:12 29:8 179:14 196:6 235:22 262:12,16 speaks 145:5

222:22 236:12 specialized

133:8 specialty

222:14 specific43:15

59:19 125:22 206:1 209:9 209:12 220:11,12,13 223:10 224:3 231:15 236:8 236:9 241:6 241:7 specifically

46:1 204:16 207:9 208:10 222:3,3 238:8 240:22 253:14 specifics40:3

208:13 specify262:2 speed 72:1

109:21 155:8 155:21 162:11 243:12 247:5 247:7 spend 11:7

30:2 56:16 70:1 229:16 spending

221:9 spent 142:9 spinning

151:1 split53:7 54:9 spoke20:1 120:20 spot20:13

78:3 82:22 194:5 spread 170:9

226:4 spreadsheets

184:22 square95:9

173:19 square-foot

95:12 squishiness

198:11 squishy 181:1 stacked

115:12,13 stacking

115:15 STAFF52:22 stage54:1

55:18 69:5 73:18 123:2 142:21 175:22 176:6 244:11,15 staged 52:19

52:21 53:12 54:6,10 63:16 65:21 66:1 110:5,9 110:17 199:17,20,22 243:13 stages52:17

72:4 110:16 110:18 122:21 244:15 stainless

12:10,14 13:14 19:14 21:21 24:17 24:18 26:17 stake 136:2,15 136:18 stakeholders

126:3 183:18 183:22 184:2 184:6 stamina 101:2 standard

19:11 28:22 28:22 29:1 29:10,11 34:18 86:13 86:16 122:3 123:1,13 125:4,13,16 125:17 126:12,13,17 198:1 209:17 210:20 standards

23:16 28:4 28:15 87:17 89:13 126:14 158:17 176:16 257:8 258:3 standpoint

198:10 stands 102:2

224:6 Starr2:22 5:6

5:6 17:2,2,15 17:18 38:11 41:9 52:18 52:18 53:5 53:13,18 55:14,14,21 56:6,10,19 57:9 58:17 59:3 62:14 62:14 64:4 65:11 66:3,5 66:20 67:10 68:1,1,12,18 69:3 71:11 71:20 72:15 77:6,19 79:8 79:22 83:7 86:2 92:4,22 96:12 100:3 100:7,8 106:11 107:15,22 108:18,22 133:5 134:12 135:10 145:15,16 146:5,8 148:12 150:7 150:13 160:5 161:11 162:9 162:13,16,21 163:13 169:7 170:8 171:4 172:12 173:7 173:15 177:18 180:10 189:12 197:8 207:13,18 208:1,7,14 211:2 212:21 214:17 215:8 215:15,20 216:8 217:11 217:20 218:16 219:8 220:8,18 225:1,11 227:10,22 228:7,17 229:14 231:1 231:9,21 232:8 236:16 244:7 start4:14 8:11

42:20 91:7 96:18 103:5

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 119:8 127:19 182:4 214:19 235:2,5 239:19 255:16 257:17 start-up214:8

229:15,15 started 7:11

83:17,22 187:21 245:5 starting 14:4

94:10 96:1 103:21 116:6 212:18 225:6 starts 103:7

203:15 216:16,18 Stas2:5 5:16

5:16 8:18,18 state 182:11 statement

24:12 static57:10,13

58:2,4 59:6 60:6 68:13 68:17,21 145:18 148:20 160:11 161:4 161:6,10,12 162:11 163:9 180:16,20,21 188:13 215:14 219:10,19 statics 161:20 station 162:19 stats235:10 status43:1 statute 10:2

125:16 statutory

184:11,18 185:19 stay43:11

131:7 stays68:18 steady-state

71:13 steaks 136:19 steal 191:9 steel 12:7,9,10

12:10,12,14 13:10,14 15:9 19:6,9 19:14 20:9 21:12,21 24:4,12,17 24:19 26:17 27:10 32:21 32:22 210:7 Stein 238:6

245:19 stenotype

266:5 step95:17

106:21 107:4 120:19 Stephen 3:17

6:10 stepping 62:1 steps 96:8

214:7 stick81:12

102:3 148:16 sticking 203:3 still 9:16 13:10

14:12,19 29:9,13,17 36:14 46:12 53:16 54:8 80:3 87:11 88:15 124:6 145:17 151:8 152:15 155:21 187:2 202:15 205:1 212:5 217:13 236:18 244:18 246:1 246:16 255:19 stimulation

71:9 184:17 stock79:19,20

86:13 162:2 196:14,18 197:20,20,20 197:22 198:1 198:5 stop203:10

262:5 stores254:22 story88:1

149:10 188:15 straight

192:20 straightened

189:5 straightforw...

264:8 strategy9:21 strictly73:7

110:3 strike 154:6 strikes 114:10

137:17 stringent

123:2,22 study238:17

239:3 242:1 244:8 245:8 245:11,17,19 246:18 stuff38:20

71:14 72:18 116:10,16 219:2,11 229:10 250:22 254:12 sub-class

133:18 subject20:21

88:8 90:22 95:19 182:11 222:20 submit 194:6 submittal

75:22 substantial

25:19 85:6 222:12 substantially

170:7 245:11 substantive

120:11 succinct93:15

93:17 such 92:7

104:1 129:20 209:18 sudden 78:8 suggest33:21

149:3 231:14 249:9 suggested

238:2 suggests

223:4 246:21 suing 87:14 summarize

117:15 sun 234:14 super245:2 suppliers

109:6 supply57:11

78:7 111:1 188:14 210:13 244:9 supplying

111:1 support6:16 34:18,19 89:10 210:7 256:7 supporting

256:8 supposed

58:20 75:16 sure21:1

35:20 38:3 55:6 58:13 60:20 62:11 67:4 70:3 73:5 84:2 90:16 93:1 95:17 100:13 101:2 103:13 114:11 119:15 138:10 149:16 184:16 198:17 231:9 231:11 240:12 241:9 256:17 262:4 263:14 surface 11:21

12:2 26:19 94:9 surprise216:3 surprised

215:2 216:1 surprisingly

115:3 sweat 163:17 sweep 254:22 switch 77:5

78:8 switched

65:12 79:11 141:21 switching

77:21 78:6 79:12 80:4

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 93:5 system57:2

59:5,6,10,10 62:17,18 63:1,6 64:6,8 64:21 65:13 66:7,7,12,13 70:17,21 81:14,18 83:14,15 84:4 132:13 141:21 156:7 162:7 163:12 166:13 175:5 188:8 229:12 238:13,20 241:17,22 246:1,2,3 systematically

94:21 systems57:14

57:21 67:1 238:9 245:13 245:14,21 T T 117:7 TAB 189:2 table 10:4 13:2 18:4 36:12 45:13 47:15 55:20,22 74:4 92:13 112:21 122:7 122:9 125:7 127:5 136:5 151:12 153:13,14 168:14 197:7 201:5 216:15 240:3 256:1 264:7 tables47:10

51:10 69:19 182:17 tag 4:19 tail 141:13 take 10:3 30:9

30:12 48:10 49:1,16 52:12 58:12 62:10 64:20 67:3 81:2 92:5 100:14 100:21 141:2 154:15 155:18,19 164:3 171:5 177:8 182:15 187:13,15,21 195:6 228:4 231:14,16 239:20 240:7 245:18 249:17 252:5 taken 60:22 117:6 128:12 191:1 266:5 takes 60:16

67:12 122:16 184:10 189:21 231:4 taking 33:4

39:14 48:15 62:1 65:16 123:14 130:10 177:5 241:20 245:13 talk42:9 46:20

46:22 91:9 100:19 119:20 135:20 137:8 138:7 185:5 190:18 196:1 203:11 208:16 218:22 241:12,14 talked 23:1

82:16 98:7 133:9 160:11 192:15 203:9 210:11,17 222:19 238:5 talking 29:9

75:2 82:11 83:2 110:22 112:3 121:3 162:10 190:21 196:12 205:10 219:3 219:9 227:6 229:4 238:11 240:13 241:8 talks 12:18

90:18 target51:21

52:3 55:8 67:14 110:16 targets52:5 task 197:13 tasking 219:5 Taylor 190:18

238:3 245:20 team 45:6 139:11 142:17 Techlor70:18 technical 114:11 256:7 technician

229:18,19 technologies

4:19 159:20 technology

93:4 Ted 5:19 48:13 tell 39:17 54:9

62:4 104:21 204:6 211:22 223:14 231:8 telling 99:15 189:2 211:17 tells36:5 temperature

73:7,12,19 74:7,17 110:2,13,14 111:1,2 133:16 144:5 164:17,20,21 165:1,1,2 166:10 167:13,20 174:15 232:17 242:4 244:9,22 temperatures

51:17 141:15 167:6 ten 176:5 198:12 247:14 251:9 251:19,20 252:6 253:21 253:21 ten-minute

30:10,11,12 187:16 ten-ton 205:7 tend 81:19 102:7 143:12 150:7 164:11 181:8 tended 206:20

207:1 tendency

245:1 tends 143:1 168:11 193:4 tenth 191:15 term 116:19

235:10 terminal 57:8 256:10 terms25:11,22

33:15 38:11 77:1 107:11 121:8 122:18 131:19 180:18 194:12 200:3 217:16 218:8 218:13,13 253:2 Terzigni 3:1

5:8,8 35:10 35:10 80:16 80:16 130:21 130:22 131:16 188:7 188:11,12,22 192:12,12 193:1,12 203:12,12 204:5,20 205:6,9 206:13 207:7 208:6,8 209:5 214:2 216:14 217:3 217:8,18 218:3,3 220:3,9 221:20,20 222:2,5,13 223:8,16 224:2 225:2 233:21 236:4 236:4 239:19 251:12,12,21 test45:8 51:20

60:19 68:14 70:7 71:2 81:3 82:7 110:4 134:22 153:18 154:9

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 157:21 158:7 158:15 tested 20:9

81:3,4,10 82:4 83:5 139:6 testing 67:6

85:1 238:14 Texas 166:3,4 text 190:3 than 14:14,15

21:17 22:2 27:15 33:12 35:7 36:13 40:4 55:9 57:3,13 58:1 61:22 64:7 69:15,17 74:9 84:18 92:18,21 96:5 101:19 104:2 105:10 110:11,13 111:20 114:13 123:2 123:22 124:17 125:19 131:14 132:1 133:12 135:5 135:12 139:18 148:4 148:16 154:12 156:3 170:6,7 172:2 176:1 177:20,22 196:8 204:11 205:2,13 208:19 210:6 211:10 212:1 212:6 213:2 214:12 216:2 220:7 228:20 229:1,13 251:22 252:20 253:1 255:4 257:13 259:5,11,12 261:6 262:9 265:2 thank6:11

9:13 11:12 16:21 28:19 30:12,22 32:12 47:7 49:21 50:11 51:4 62:13 67:18 71:10 72:10 101:14 104:17 114:21 115:4 116:17,22 117:4 127:6 127:12 128:3 136:12 152:3 159:12 174:17 179:13 183:10,11 187:12,17 189:9 221:17 249:18 264:17 Thanks 17:6

37:13 131:16 152:4 173:15 177:17 189:14 Tharp3:4 5:11

5:11 8:13,13 40:13,13 63:22,22 64:17,17,19 78:13,13 79:15 158:12 158:12 178:13,13 183:13,13 256:22 that'd 154:1 themselves

6:14 38:2 45:16 82:17 137:19 225:3 239:9 theory66:10

85:1 thereafter 187:17 266:5 therefore

39:19 143:13 210:8 thereto266:12 Thereupon 117:5 265:12 thermal 16:7,9

22:4 24:1 27:11,16,21 27:22 128:16 thermostat

200:8 214:6 thermostats

201:16 235:11 thick75:21 thing 13:19

26:8 37:8,16 40:22 46:16 49:5 55:11 56:13,14 57:6 59:5 64:19 70:2 71:12,14 77:1 83:8 86:2 92:22 106:2,12 110:6 113:1 114:10 115:7 115:22 118:10,12 135:2 138:11 142:11 143:2 149:15 154:12 155:12 167:18 171:5 171:6 172:12 181:11 200:11 206:8 214:18 218:16 222:19 225:12 230:4 231:2,14 232:1 238:15 239:10 245:10 247:10 259:21 260:7 260:12 things8:22 15:11 41:13 53:22 72:20 73:10 81:13 100:18 102:2 103:22 104:8 119:16 126:7 127:4 141:6 142:7 143:19 149:13 154:14 160:6 160:10 179:12 182:5 182:6 184:13 184:15,21 196:8 197:9 203:7 209:18 209:19 219:10,21 225:18 245:15 254:7 255:14 261:19 think7:13 9:16

9:17 10:11 10:12 11:18 16:3,10 19:5 20:13,14 22:17 37:22 38:11,21 39:4 41:10 41:13 42:3 42:11,11 45:13,20 46:2,9,12 54:2,18,20 54:22 56:2 56:10 58:5 59:3,16 60:3 61:2,11 62:4 62:9,12,20 63:1,6,6,7,11 64:4,5 66:3,5 71:12,13 74:22 75:16 75:17 76:21 80:9,14 84:3 84:7 85:19 87:16 95:4 95:17 100:15 100:18 101:13,15 105:12 107:1 114:2 118:11 119:20 120:2 121:4,7,8,18 123:20 124:15 125:7 125:9,22 126:6,8 127:4,14 133:7,9,19 134:7 136:8 136:19 137:2 137:6,16 140:6,20 142:8 144:9 147:17 148:5 151:9 153:19

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 153:20,21 154:4,4 155:12 156:15 158:13 159:16 160:1 161:22 162:5 163:20 164:13,17 165:12 168:22 170:12 172:7 174:13 177:9 177:20,21 179:6,10 180:3,7 181:1,6,17 181:19 185:9 185:15,18 187:4,6,8 188:20 189:12 194:20 195:4 196:7 197:9 197:11 208:5 209:1 211:13 211:21 212:7 216:9 218:8 218:11,13 219:6 220:7 220:18,19,20 221:7 222:13 225:12 228:21 230:12,20,22 231:6,14,15 231:18 232:2 232:5,12,19 233:4 234:19 236:15,16 237:14 238:6 239:19,21 242:7 244:11 245:7,20 249:15,19 252:15 253:16 255:19 256:1 256:1 258:19 262:14,21 264:7 thinking 30:10

66:13 70:11 121:5 138:13 138:20,20 172:15 178:12 242:6 third 4:5 85:10 thorough 101:13,16 thought29:14

53:5,8 59:17 84:16,19 89:7 100:3 109:7 126:5 135:11 136:7 136:17 138:17 139:18 160:11,14 167:11 177:21 178:14 184:13 192:8 228:17 229:3 229:22 232:16 thoughts 105:8 148:15 thousand

211:8 three8:6 10:7

38:8 50:22 91:19 92:2 125:9,21 180:13 191:7 198:4 224:4 234:5 three-78:21 three-quarter 163:18 three-quarte...

75:21 three-quarters 163:15 three-year 124:6 throw44:18 thrown 207:4 thumb 182:22 183:2,9 223:7,13 thumbs 182:18,18,20 182:20,21 183:4 186:7 thunder 191:9 thus90:12

97:12 98:5 Thybar75:10 108:15 tight 105:16 tightly 105:15 til 191:8 time8:4 11:7 12:5 17:20 18:1,11,15 19:3 20:7 23:1,10 28:2 30:3,21 31:19 32:4 43:7 47:10 49:17 56:16 62:11 69:22 89:14 106:18 107:6,8,9 111:22 112:9 113:10 124:6 124:6,15,17 125:1 137:18 140:20 143:3 144:15,21,22 147:4 149:6 150:15 153:11 154:5 172:14 183:17,21,22 184:12 185:6 185:8,22 186:1,6 195:19 210:20 214:10 221:9 229:18 235:12 247:11 248:20 253:1 261:17,18 timeframe 124:5 249:17 times 77:20 124:8 141:17 143:10 189:20 225:14 tiny 141:14,19 141:19 tip254:13 to-do's41:22 today4:20

7:15 11:10 13:12 24:5,6 24:8 28:18 32:17 77:4 117:16 120:8 120:14,15 137:20 182:4 187:5 188:2 196:2 262:18 together48:9 102:12 137:10 138:2 197:22 216:15 told 192:9

211:19 tomorrow 28:18 97:18 117:15,16 120:9,10,15 231:18 232:19 233:1 234:1,22 235:6 240:6 251:9,11 263:1 265:7 ton 43:3,16

89:15 95:6 97:5,5,5,6,6 99:6 103:5 103:16 116:5 153:4 156:21 163:1 165:12 170:13 203:15 204:13 205:4 205:19 208:2 211:5,14,21 211:22 212:5 212:22 213:2 213:12 214:12 216:1 223:7 227:9 227:12,12,12 227:12 228:18,20 229:2,13 230:8,9 252:17 260:3 tonnage 193:5

204:9 205:14 211:12 215:5 215:8 217:9 224:13 tonnages 146:8,9 176:14 232:13 tons 17:10,11 111:15,17,21

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 112:11,14 114:8 115:6 116:1,1,4,11 116:16 190:6 190:12,12 192:18,19 199:13 200:12,19 201:20 202:12,14 204:2 211:11 214:20 216:18 223:14,22 235:16,16,17 243:3 247:11 259:3 263:8 263:12 took81:9

91:16,21 122:22 123:1 123:3,13 141:11 142:2 188:17 245:19 top84:13 96:4

98:20 125:3 152:1,18,20 152:22 166:12 209:17 top-level 50:14 topic 148:10 148:11 topics 11:1 tops94:15 Toro3:11 5:22

6:8 221:11 221:17 total 25:15,21

27:3 151:9 153:6 157:7 161:3,10,12 165:15 168:18 170:1 170:22 171:3 171:8,10 176:12 193:19 195:10,11,12 195:14 203:22 204:4 260:2,4,15 totally 162:20 totals 165:3 touch 84:20 touche252:11

252:11 tough 139:1 tougher207:5 toward 158:15 trade 150:15 trade-off 114:22 156:6 trading 137:14 trailer 113:5 113:12 116:5 116:19 Trane4:21

6:16 26:22 39:13 53:10 66:22 77:9 77:11,12 79:18 85:8 93:13 134:16 179:8 249:15 253:11 264:1 transcription

266:6 transition

233:20,21 translate37:3 treating 175:4 treatment 174:20 trend 62:3

73:12 102:10 103:6 202:2 220:14 trends44:3

58:13 61:7 72:19 105:6 trial 28:21,22

29:10,11 tried 165:8

238:3 trigger 113:19

206:18 triggers209:9

209:12 triple47:12

219:5 trivial 25:17 trouble 14:19 165:10 true71:7 138:3 161:7 212:15 212:16 266:7 trusting 62:3 try43:22 60:17

61:21 97:9 135:13 136:11 138:1 138:2 158:8 265:2 trying9:2,13

29:18 39:19 44:4 55:21 56:2 82:12 92:5,8,10 127:4 132:16 133:20 135:11,13 148:13,16 149:17,18,19 149:20 152:10 159:17 167:8 167:10 185:1 196:16 214:14 217:13,14 252:15 TSCs256:19 TSL29:3 TSL-329:15

206:12 TSL-429:14

29:15 130:15 206:11 TSLs 181:17 TSO-240:12 tube94:9 tubes27:4 tuned 43:11 turn 11:4

36:16 56:22 135:19 turned 123:12 tweak 149:11 149:13,14 twice 122:19

211:12 twist 60:18 two 11:22 12:3 15:10,11 17:16 32:22 37:19 42:4 55:22 75:13 84:11 85:9 89:5 90:13 91:4,7,9,15 92:1 104:20 105:8 112:14 119:16 121:10,21 122:1,12,18 122:21,21,22 124:2,2,3 137:10 138:7 141:8 143:19 155:6,9 159:11 164:9 167:1 170:21 176:1 177:5 177:7 180:13 184:15 193:14 194:6 196:13 197:21 208:15 213:5 229:16 237:15 244:15 253:1 253:1 258:4 264:11 two-stage 72:4 123:13 252:18 type 12:10,10

27:10 61:14 94:9 104:6 112:4 132:4 162:8 163:11 190:1,15 200:1,9 214:6 types 12:8

40:8 131:19 134:20 154:17 163:4 typical 57:3

63:7 typically63:1

64:20 209:13 209:14 typo 144:13,14 U U.S84:16

131:22 Uh-huh 154:21 UL5:12 ultimately

87:21 127:3 226:5 237:12 unanimous

183:6 uncertainty

177:15,16

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 179:6,20 unchanged

129:16 153:18 unclear 166:15 understand

23:22 33:19 35:1,12 36:9 39:20 77:7 108:20 116:14 197:12 223:17 226:17 240:13 246:5 263:14 understandi...

62:8 89:11 97:9 137:9 249:21 264:2 unfair93:19 unfortunately

120:19 126:21 130:5 144:12 194:17 uniform 172:9 unit 11:14

25:21 44:3 51:12,15 52:9 56:8,9 59:16,19 60:14 63:5 63:15,18 64:2,21,22 65:10,12 77:17,22,22 78:3 79:11 79:11 83:12 85:2 88:20 90:2 92:17 92:18 95:22 96:6 98:21 99:5 102:22 103:7,15 104:4 106:3 128:18 129:8 131:4,4 132:7 143:7 143:8 145:12 153:4,6 154:1,20 155:19 156:21 158:2 158:3 159:20 161:16 162:2 163:11 170:10,11,14 172:15 176:9 199:14 203:7 203:15,19 204:2 205:7 208:2,15,16 209:10,14,17 210:4,5,6,8,9 210:13,14,16 211:8,9,10 211:12,20 212:22 213:13,15 214:1,22 215:19 216:2 216:5 224:3 224:3 225:20 229:1,2,8 252:17 254:1 254:2,15 260:3,12 263:19 unitary 128:14

253:18 United 4:18 units 13:7,10

13:12,16 27:16 35:13 35:18 55:13 56:13 58:3 58:15,19 60:10,12 62:5,7 63:11 63:21 65:21 65:21 66:18 76:1,4,10,16 80:2 85:13 89:11 98:12 103:18 107:17 108:5 108:10 109:19,22 113:5,6,11 113:16,19 115:21 116:16 131:5 133:11 134:13,20 140:15 143:4 159:17,18 162:7,8 163:2 164:16 172:15 175:4 175:11 176:1 176:5,7,8 198:7 204:17 210:18 216:16 226:4 248:1 249:12 252:19 260:5 260:14 263:19 universe

116:15 unless 31:15

42:4 180:8 226:8 unnoticeable

142:4 unpredictable

164:10 unusually

73:21 update8:20

12:19,20 15:15 111:16 258:9 updated 12:8

13:1 31:20 updates 11:4,6

11:17 14:3 42:22 135:20 189:17 updating

13:21 27:14 upgrade

206:17 upon 74:17

81:21 130:7 190:22 197:14 200:8 207:16 227:8 228:4,8 236:2 242:1 251:7 259:1 upper55:20

175:22 176:6 upshot217:14 upstream

189:4 usage 155:9 use21:16,18

21:20,21 22:21 23:12 24:5,6 37:1,5 37:6 40:4 41:3,5 43:5,9 56:20 57:2 63:18 68:6 69:22 71:22 87:3 93:4 100:18 109:15 131:18,20 132:1 135:20 141:1 144:11 147:13 151:8 157:5 158:2 159:18,19 160:16 161:3 164:13,16 165:4 168:11 168:18 170:1 170:17,22 171:3 172:1 175:13 176:13 189:21 190:1 196:9,13 199:10 202:9 208:15 225:13 259:4 259:11 user255:13 users 39:15

94:5 133:7 uses56:20

57:2 63:4 103:1 usually225:16

254:14 Utilities5:3 utility66:16,16

245:12 V validation 161:8 value 17:12

29:12,13 35:22 65:9 66:11 69:8 130:6 196:19 197:3 249:3 250:12 values8:15

36:12 108:2 130:6 145:22 178:20 259:20 van 116:12 variability 170:20

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 variable54:7

65:8,14 66:1 84:5 109:21 155:8,20 161:4 163:8 190:10,13,20 201:2 238:10 238:12,19 241:20 243:12 245:22 246:17 247:5 247:7 258:16 258:18 variables

229:8 variance

205:20 variation

59:18 variations

61:10 varied 131:3 varies211:13 variety 159:20 various 12:8

51:18 123:6 vary59:19

202:19 224:13 256:13 vastly 155:9 VAV52:11,15

52:21 53:16 54:4 55:13 56:8,15 57:6 57:11 59:5,6 59:8,10 60:7 62:18 63:1,5 63:6,17 64:6 64:22 65:9 65:13 66:7,7 66:12,16,18 67:4,14,21 68:11 69:5 109:20 112:16,16,19 114:13,16 115:2 145:6 161:7 171:2 172:14 190:6 199:20 201:6 201:7,9 214:11 240:15,21,22 241:12,14 242:12,13 245:14,15,21 245:21 246:6 246:7,10,22 247:1,4 258:13 vendor75:20

82:18 vendors43:21

75:13 82:18 84:12,15,21 84:22 85:3,4 ventilation 142:3 verify61:20 version 77:22 142:18 178:11 212:11 versions46:7 149:11 versus37:18

58:6,6 61:9 65:8 73:6,12 79:3 85:12 131:12 156:7 186:13 210:20,22 227:21 230:10,11 250:21 252:16,18 253:1 vertical 168:11 vetted 183:20 via 122:3 view58:18 167:1 virtual 187:21 volume51:15

52:3,7,8,19 52:21 54:6,7 54:10 55:17 57:13 59:7,9 60:5 62:17 63:4,16 64:2 64:7,21 65:8 65:8,21,21 66:1,1,13 67:6 68:6 113:2 161:3 161:4 163:8 163:8 190:10 190:10,13,14 190:19,20 199:14,15,17 199:18,18,19 199:20 200:1 200:15,22 201:2,3 238:9,10,12 238:18,19 241:10,21 244:10 245:13,22 246:4,9,16 246:17 247:5 258:12,15,16 258:17,18 vote 136:14,22 137:4 138:15 177:8 182:9 187:6 189:10 233:14 voted 186:7 189:12 VS 110:15 W wait42:10 191:8 192:11 251:11 waiting 89:5

258:20 Walgreen's

255:12,13 walk 121:9 Waltner3:5

5:13,13 15:6 15:6,19 26:6 26:6 29:19 29:21 31:5 32:10,12,18 59:14 60:9 62:13 101:21 101:21 102:21 103:19 104:10,17 105:4 173:16 174:17 236:18 237:3 237:10,16,20 want 10:1

20:12 23:12 37:13,16 38:3 40:7,11 40:21 42:9 42:10 45:12 46:16 47:4,5 48:12 52:12 62:21 66:21 70:1 72:12 91:1 100:13 101:2 102:3 106:2 116:22 119:11 121:2 127:9 136:6 136:13 137:8 138:1,2 147:3,5 149:20 152:13 153:3 174:18 186:4 187:15 198:17 202:8 203:10 204:22 206:8 208:11 219:22 220:13 231:8 232:15,17,22 237:10 240:12 247:21 254:7 258:11 260:11 261:2 262:4 265:6 wanted 49:5

74:12 77:5 100:15 119:17,19 120:12 153:3 182:2 214:4 240:19 254:6 wants 220:10 warm 29:16

33:22 38:6 128:5,7 135:18 256:8 warmer245:4 was.26 76:12 wash 35:7,8 128:21 129:3 washers 122:21 123:11,12 256:11 Washington 1:15 wasn't 58:14

83:2 156:22 163:10 186:4 204:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 207:12 208:8 208:9 245:5 water75:15 162:7 watt51:9 wattage45:7

46:6 48:4 69:6 74:4 wattages

51:18 watts 52:15 wavy8:21 way9:19 63:20

68:17,20 74:13 81:3 82:2 83:11 93:16 96:4,4 98:22 108:2 114:13 115:18 116:3 148:15,21,22 149:13,14 150:14 154:13 164:15 175:7 175:10,12 177:6 197:15 197:16 199:22 202:10 204:22 209:1 228:11 237:11 240:5 245:8 ways 154:16

212:10 we'd 60:20 119:4 239:20 we're 8:3,8 9:1

9:13 12:9 29:9,22 30:16,17 38:3 40:18 50:4,5 54:1 55:5 59:4 65:15 67:2 72:9 74:5 88:19 95:14 96:1 97:20 98:17 105:21 108:16,17 112:1,1 113:2 117:4 117:10,10,15 120:2 121:5 121:9 127:4 127:13 132:15,21,21 138:19 143:21 145:9 147:16,20,21 149:4,12,17 149:18,19 152:10 156:19 157:14,15,17 159:10 160:21,21 161:9 170:19 170:19 172:4 173:5 175:3 175:5 176:19 180:11 181:6 184:20 185:1 185:9,11 187:2,4,17 187:22,22 188:1,3 193:14,22 196:16,18,20 196:21 197:1 199:9 201:20 201:22 202:15 203:3 205:10,20 206:2 210:21 220:20 230:1 230:15,16 231:7 233:18 235:9 238:11 240:13 258:19 260:4 265:4,6 we've 10:14

42:3 43:20 44:2,20 60:13,22 61:4 70:3 75:5 89:16 94:21 95:4 98:5 120:11 138:20 143:17 150:14 161:22 180:3 180:3 182:4 184:20,21,21 187:5,5 194:13 206:3 233:9,11 253:14 255:22 wearing 38:21 weather207:3 web 85:4 webinar3:9

30:21 183:8 Wednesday 1:6 week 11:19

28:21 120:22 121:1 128:11 129:21 130:8 130:14,16 190:2,17 191:5 192:9 192:17 195:20 199:6 199:7 200:12 200:14 201:19,22 202:13 203:10 243:5 243:20,22 247:15,22 256:5 258:6 259:6,16,18 261:6 week's 191:14

238:2 weekend

220:1 weekends

210:22 weeks 10:8

89:6 121:10 weighs 41:13

211:9 weight 114:18

202:16 203:5 206:14,16 207:8,10,11 207:16,19 208:10 209:13,13 213:4,14,22 216:13,16 217:2,12,21 218:7,8,13 218:14 220:20,22 221:2 227:12 227:13,21 228:4,8,15 228:20,21 weighted 17:11 19:4 38:12 168:19 256:15 weighting 164:7,8 169:14 weights 112:21 165:7 168:16 217:3 welcome 113:21 Wendy's

255:12 went 16:5 31:9

31:19 32:14 46:17 78:16 98:21,22 115:11 122:21 139:19,21 141:17 213:10 236:22 238:2 239:3 241:6 256:18 West 166:1,3,4 Western

254:20 Westphalen

2:8 7:1,1 41:19 42:17 42:19 46:5 46:19 47:2,8 48:3 49:4,19 50:8,12,21 51:6 52:20 53:2 54:18 54:20 55:4,7 55:19 56:4,7 56:12 57:5 58:12 59:2 59:11 60:13 67:13,19 68:9,16,20 69:9,14 70:13,22 71:4,8 72:3,8 72:12 73:4 74:20 75:20 77:16 78:11 79:1 80:12 82:8 84:10 85:15 87:20 89:9 92:11

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 93:8 94:13 96:10,20 99:18,22 100:6,11,17 101:6,9 105:2,20 106:7 107:13 107:16 108:12 109:9 111:3,6 161:21 213:7 246:19 what-not

218:6 wheel 151:1 where 13:6 16:2 21:6,11 21:19 23:2,9 24:16 30:11 32:14 39:21 63:5 68:14 70:19 76:4 77:13 78:7,9 78:16,18 81:15 91:7 92:6,15 95:20 98:21 98:22 103:17 103:21 125:10,22 126:13 127:13 130:14 131:18 132:2 132:4,21 133:21,22 134:2,10 135:12 144:15 145:3 145:5,10 146:15 156:21 165:7 167:12 170:14 181:19 182:4 184:4,10,18 184:21 185:1 187:4,7,10 189:5,6 199:16 201:7 236:22 241:13 246:20 wherever

221:1 whether8:15

34:13 45:14 45:21 48:21 71:14,16 94:10 95:4 126:18 129:14 130:13 142:15 143:22 162:6 166:21 169:12,13,18 170:10 171:17 190:9 191:21 192:10 208:17 237:9 237:10 238:9 239:7,8,10 260:20 whip 187:21 white 14:20 Whitwell 3:6

4:18,18 7:9 15:2 22:14 22:14 24:5 24:14 25:2,6 25:9,15,19 33:6,6 34:15 34:21 39:7 41:6 42:7,15 45:18 46:9 46:14,21 47:7,21 48:10,16,19 49:10,13 53:14,14 54:12 57:15 57:15 58:11 59:21 62:9 63:10 64:12 65:3,6,15,19 66:4,15 70:7 70:10 71:18 85:19 86:6 86:16,20 87:2 88:12 88:13 89:5 101:11,11 102:18,18 103:4,20 104:11 105:9 105:18 106:5 109:5 110:21 110:21 113:22,22 117:11 118:17 119:3 119:7 135:22 136:16,21 137:4,12 138:3,10,17 139:1,5 151:20 152:14 154:7 155:2,18 156:14 158:19 185:13 207:17,19 208:4 209:1 213:9,19 214:3 215:6 215:11,13,17 215:21 216:12,22 217:5,10 218:1 229:5 231:6 234:6 235:2 237:8 237:12 240:1 240:7,9,10 240:10 241:11 242:5 242:10,15,18 242:21 243:6 243:17,21 244:2,6 246:6,12 247:6 262:11 262:11,18 264:15 who's 235:3 whoa249:5,5 whole45:15

47:18 48:8 76:19 135:13 138:6 169:14 183:15 212:20 225:22 253:12 254:6 254:14 wholistically 159:17 whom 122:7,8 122:8 whomever

25:8 Whoops 145:14 wide256:6 WILKENFELD 111:4 willing 181:4 Wilson 3:13

6:9 win 37:1 windows 140:16 winner37:7 132:4 winners 36:6

36:14 132:3 Winningham

5:4,4 28:8,19 94:7 105:11 152:7 wish 9:11

222:10 within 76:15 158:10 177:15 185:9 227:16 236:8 Wolf3:21 6:19

6:19 won't 9:3 11:7

43:3 54:9 132:5 148:9 wonder253:5 wondered

42:8 217:11 wondering 18:4 102:16 140:4 217:19 244:19 Woodford

3:14 6:9 worded 220:14 words 57:9

65:12 80:2 83:13 108:4 161:12 171:10 221:1 221:3 work8:4,5,7

38:21 57:12 59:7 60:16 70:17 89:10 121:10,13 147:1 149:1 150:2 158:15 160:19 171:7 171:7 193:7 197:22

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 204:16 210:15 231:4 249:9,11 worked 21:15

69:15 121:11 172:3 204:12 223:11 224:8 working 1:2

5:22 30:22 57:12 72:6 144:1 156:13 156:17 169:13 170:15,16 171:12 219:22 244:16 248:22 works 20:18

37:11 166:22 world 212:20 worried 186:10 230:15 worrying 143:15 worse 170:16 179:18 worst225:9 worth 48:15 109:8 143:15 150:12 165:9 198:5 wrong 47:11

81:7 83:13 170:5,6 201:11,12 212:19 226:8 232:15 X X77:10 86:3

93:10 105:13 Xing 2:11 6:17 Xu 2:11 6:17 6:17 Y Y77:10 86:3 yeah 15:21 19:17 25:17 30:4 32:3,18 34:4,17 35:3 38:13 42:11 46:9,19,19 47:2,2 48:17 49:4 55:1,9 59:11 62:4 86:16 87:20 88:22 99:22 103:4,20 105:9 124:4 125:21 128:6 130:17 132:8 132:15 135:10,16 138:10,17 147:9 148:1 148:2 152:22 160:17 164:4 171:20 172:9 172:20,22 173:14 184:20 185:18 192:7 192:16 193:10 195:21 197:9 205:6 216:8 217:3 223:8 226:22 227:5 231:5 237:20 247:8 250:8 255:9 257:19 259:7 260:17 261:12 262:7 262:18,20 year56:18 84:18 122:16 122:17 124:15 156:9 159:21 191:12,14,15 247:13,19 250:7,8,9 years 17:10,10

35:14,19,19 36:16 37:18 130:3,7,10 140:11 192:17,18 193:3 198:12 198:19,20 247:14 251:20,20 252:2,6,7 253:22 255:18 years' 198:5 yep67:19

69:13 138:12 217:7 246:13 248:17 yesterday4:20 yet8:21 10:4

33:16 121:6 184:1 237:2 York234:21 young255:11 Z Zendah 3:7

5:15,15 zero87:18

167:22 169:3 170:12 zone238:13

238:20 241:17,22 246:2,10,11 0 01 108:7 05 75:14 219:15 1 1 25:13 33:11

55:8 69:5 75:15 76:14 92:1 99:20 100:1 112:15 142:21 162:16 163:14,14,15 176:20,22 199:16 201:3 212:18 263:19 264:3 264:4,9,9 1,000 191:6

235:16 260:5 1,320216:17 1,400214:22 1,500 73:17 1,692 69:8 1,703 216:18 1,750235:16

260:13 1,920 69:4,6 1.15 188:17 1.25 145:19,22

160:14 161:9 188:21 1.3 145:18 1:30 100:21

117:3 1:35 117:8 1025:13 31:7

54:18,22 55:1,2,10 89:17 96:11 97:5 206:2 238:20 242:2 247:19 255:18 10-year254:18 10,000206:10 10,895 260:4 10.6 52:3,4 10:13 30:14 10:35 49:21 10:36 50:2 10:5049:21 10025:22

56:16 81:16 110:2 133:14 134:13,17,18 134:21,22 180:19 243:9 244:12 100,000 84:18

85:2 87:19 88:2 108:5 1000 1:14 103340:19

165:6 11 32:6 181:21 11.6 52:8,12 11.7 171:15 11:03 50:2 115.6 69:14 12 37:5,8

39:16 55:9 89:17 97:5,6 99:6 102:19 103:5 12.45 62:19 12.49 62:18 12:24 117:5 12:30 100:21

100:22 101:5 101:7 120229:19 13 92:18 94:15

181:21 250:7 250:8,9 13,122 257:10 13,139 153:9 13,727 153:9 13.2 67:14

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 13th 191:13

247:19 1495:9 14.5 153:8 15 17:5,10

35:19,19 44:15 48:15 49:6,16,17 111:16 112:11 115:7 143:6 144:12 145:19 146:2 151:5 159:5 190:12 192:18 193:3 198:12 200:11 201:20 202:14 211:11 213:5 213:13 216:18 227:18 228:18 230:2 230:10 235:16 243:3 247:11,17 253:18 255:1 255:3 261:21 263:12 15-228:11

252:4 15-ton 43:3

48:2,20 51:11 102:20 103:12 111:12 145:2 159:4,5 165:17 211:7 211:9,20 212:1,6,17 213:3,13 216:2,6 221:2,4,5 227:21 228:21 229:1 229:13 240:14 246:21 260:12,18 15,000 88:2 15.8 153:8 1633:18

198:18,20 1789:18

102:21 103:16 264:13,15 170-square-f...

103:1 18 130:4

263:21 264:4 264:10 18-year 17:13 18078:19 81:1 19263:21 190 99:6 1990 86:22 1990-1995

87:4 1995 87:1 1999 198:8 1st 122:17 2 2 18:12,13

32:20 52:11 55:8,16 75:16 92:3 108:7 110:19 112:16,18 146:3,5 163:9,14 176:21 180:14 199:16 201:3 244:14 259:12 264:4 2,000 73:17 76:16 205:19 2,08732:4 2,262 32:7 2,264216:19 2,400204:12

205:4 223:7 2,500204:3 2,800 56:1

61:19 2,900211:14 2.5 107:5,9

114:12 143:10 161:3 163:3 199:21 201:3 259:10 259:11,11 2:46 187:18 20 1:6 17:10

35:19,19 37:19,20 51:3 89:18 95:12 98:17 106:16,18 110:11 114:7 116:1 193:3 198:19 236:1 241:10 247:22 248:8 253:18 254:4 255:4,6 20-25 174:10 20-ton 102:22

102:22 103:20,20 104:12,12 20-year252:4

252:5 254:3 20.8 92:19,21 2000 88:16 2001 122:20 2003 132:22 2004 123:2 2007 123:3 127:2 2010 86:13,17

123:10 2011 122:16 201427:14

123:14,21 2015 1:6

139:12,17 2017 123:14

123:21 2045 139:21 20585 1:15 2062 31:10 20s 16:11

37:19 21 17:10 37:19

37:20 51:3 192:17 250:17 265:14 215249:12 22 51:3 250:18 22.6 130:7 24,000205:8 25 19:8 76:18

174:2 180:19 25-year33:9 26 17:12 35:14

38:4,12 76:15,18 130:4 219:16 26-year34:9

35:20 36:5 130:6 29 16:8,10

228:9 29.91 52:15 294021:17,20

22:1,5 2951 228:7 3 3 92:1 95:16

99:20 100:1 116:8,11 157:3 168:22 174:6 200:21 201:7,12 213:12 259:10,11 261:16 3-85:20 3,000203:16 3,100 55:18 3,400211:11 3,600 55:18 3.5 157:3

259:10 3.6256:13 3:00 118:15

210:22 3:07 187:18 30 17:11 99:10

99:16 105:1 107:5,7 111:21 112:13 115:6 140:11 145:19 172:14 173:12 174:7 190:6 192:18 200:19 202:12 227:18 235:16 242:11 247:11 263:12 30-some37:18 30-ton 43:6,13

43:17,19 44:12,21 46:6 48:22 49:4 50:22 51:11 52:20 69:20 114:3 143:6,17

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 144:22 146:4 201:20 212:17,18,19 214:11,22 216:20 228:11 241:8 242:12,21 247:17 252:19 263:19 30-tons44:16

261:14 30-units61:3 31 88:5 98:14 316 12:10

13:16 19:9 19:15 20:5 21:16,17,21 22:2 23:8 24:4 32 95:22 33 17:11 37:18

177:20,22 178:1 192:18 33032:22 34 17:11

192:18 35 105:1

145:13 146:4 146:9 166:10 36 95:8 37-square-fo...

97:4 37,412 257:9 38,131 257:6 4 429:1,3 55:18

67:20 161:4 200:16 260:8 261:18 4,000235:17 4,400211:6,16

214:20 221:3 4,514212:18 4.2 170:15 4.66256:15 4:30265:1,12 4028:11 116:1

243:9 409 12:10

13:18 19:8 19:10,13 21:16 22:21 24:4 43 129:5 44 129:5

214:22 4514212:17 4630216:20 5 5 17:1 25:13

29:4,11 106:19 110:19 116:8 116:11 166:1 169:10 199:22 200:16 216:1 230:13 244:1 261:3,18 5-21 120:3 5-ton 85:20 5,000231:11 5,900204:1 5.8 170:13 5:00 7:11

117:16 188:2 210:22 5095:11 252:2 50-ton 252:19 50.6 18:10 50.8 17:22 50/50 54:3 50032:19 52 182:17 54 182:17,17 5529:4 130:14 130:15 166:7 166:14 167:16 244:13,19 55,540257:6 58,950257:5 6 6 96:8 135:5

140:10 166:2 256:14 6-ton 89:16

93:10 94:13 6,000202:21

231:11 6,184257:2 6.2257:5 6.4257:10 6.9260:8 60 167:13,16

167:17,20 169:22 238:22 240:11 241:3 241:4 243:4 243:8 60-ton 114:4 61 240:12 62.6 33:9 63 114:7 65 166:15

167:16 67241:6

243:13 244:5 244:6 68 169:14 7 7 17:9 43:3,16

44:15 48:1 48:20 49:5 51:10 76:14 89:15 95:6 96:8 97:4 111:11,15 115:7 116:4 116:4,8,15 143:6 144:12 145:1,18,18 146:2 153:4 156:21 163:1 165:12 166:4 166:4 170:13 190:11 192:17 199:13 201:19 202:13 203:15 204:2 208:2 211:5 211:10,14,15 211:20,22 212:5,22 213:1,2,5,11 214:12,20 216:1,15 221:1 227:18 228:10,18,20 229:1,12 230:2,10,10 230:11 235:15 247:11,17 252:7,17 259:2 260:3 261:21 263:8 7-ish 252:7 7,400204:3 7,500208:17 7,900208:18 7.5 163:3

201:4 7.8257:6 70 16:7,11

103:2 107:8 70s 174:15 7140 119:1 75 19:9 145:18 145:21 160:14 161:9 188:21 750216:16 763 56:1 76FR257:9 79F4257:5 79FR257:6,6 7th 117:17

118:20,21 247:13 265:9 8 889:16 96:10

97:5 166:4 168:22 169:8 169:10 257:7 8,760 74:16 8.0257:8 8.9257:3 8:00 117:16

118:15 210:22 235:6 235:7,7 265:7,14 80 12:11 13:9

16:3,4,7 24:2 27:10 32:5,7 54:4 98:20 106:17 107:1 116:3 129:1 129:2 248:7 248:7,11 260:5 81 12:11 13:9

16:5,9 21:5 24:2 27:11 27:21 136:4 136:22 138:20,21 82 12:13 13:15

14:6 16:4 18:19 19:8 20:7,8,9 21:5

## Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 21:8 22:4 24:1 27:11 27:22 128:16 129:1,2,5 82.6 138:22 85,000 88:4 8765 135:2 88 18:14 8E-089 1:13 9 9 16:3,4 31:6

32:4 33:20 168:22 9.1 166:5 9.2 166:5 9.854:19 55:2 9.954:19 9:00 7:11

210:22 9:15 4:2 9:30235:3 9:46 30:14 9078:19 103:2

116:3 186:11 90-plus27:16 90.1 71:8

156:17 161:2 180:18 186:11,13 238:6 92 17:22

128:17 129:5 95 16:22 55:6 950 117:17

118:19 234:2 234:3 265:8