·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

·2· · · · · ·SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

·3· · · · · · · FORT LAUDERDALE DIVISION

·4

·5· ·AKAI CUSTOM GUNS, LLC, a

·6· ·Florida Limited Liability

·7· ·Company, and SHAY HOROWITZ,

·8· ·an individual,

·9· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,

10· · -vs-· · · · · · · · · No:· 20-cv-61469-RS

11· · · · · · · · · · · · · HON. RODNEY SMITH

12· ·KKM PRECISION, INC., a

13· ·Nevada Corporation;

14· ·SHOOTERS CONNECTIONS, INC.,

15· ·a Kentucky Corporation,

16· · · · · · ·Defendants.

17· ·___________________________________________/

18· ·Pages 1 - 233.

19

20· · · · · · ·The deposition of R. LUCAS McINTIRE,

21· · · · · · ·taken via Hanson Virtual Remote,

22· · · · · · ·commencing at 9:59 a.m.

23· · · · · · ·Thursday, August 18, 2022,

24· · · · · · ·before Ann L. Bacon CSR-1297.

25

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·1· ·APPEARANCES:

·2· ·MR. EDMUND S. YEE

·3· ·McKelvie, McKelvie, Yee & Epacs, P.C.

·4· ·280 West Maple Road, Suite 220

·5· ·Birmingham, Michigan 48009

·6· ·(248) 952-5100

·7· ·eyee@mmyelaw.com

·8· ·Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs.

·9

10· ·MR. RICHARD J. FIATO

11· ·Conifer Holdings, Inc.

12· ·550 West Merrill Street, Suite 200

13· ·Birmingham, Michigan 48009

14· ·(248) 262-5403

15· ·fiatolaw@gmail.com

16· ·Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff.

17

18· ·MR. KEVIN P. ROBINSON

19· ·MR. NICHOLAS MARI

20· ·Zimmerman, Kiser & Sutcliffe

21· ·315 E. Robinson Street, Suite 600

22· ·Orlando, Florida 32801

23· ·(407) 425-7010

24· ·krobinson@zkslawfirm.com

25· ·Appearing on behalf of Defendant KKM Precision.

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·1· ·APPEARANCES, Continued:

·2

·3· ·MR. JOHN Y. BENFORD

·4· ·MR. NICK CARDAMONE

·5· ·111 N. Orange Avenue, Suite 1200

·6· ·Orlando, Florida 32801

·7· ·(407) 203-7599

·8· ·john.benford@wilsonelser.com

·9· ·Appearing on behalf of Defendant Shooters

10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Connection, Inc.

11

12· ·ALSO PRESENT:· MR. CHUCK BRADLEY

13· · · · · · · · · MR. SHAY HOROWITZ

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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·1· · · · T A B L E· · O F· · C O N T E N T S

·2

·3· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE

·4· · ·R. LUCAS McINTIRE

·5· · · ·Examination by Mr. Yee· · · · · · · · · · ·6

·6· · · ·Examination by Mr. Robinson· · · · · · · 224

·7· · · ·Re-examination by Mr. Yee· · · · · · · · 228

·8

·9· · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S

10· ·NUMBER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE

11· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 1· · · · · · · · · · 32

12· · · ·(Deft's Answers to Plf's Interrogs.)

13· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 2· · · · · · · · · · 48

14· · · ·(1/9/20 Letter)

15· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 3· · · · · · · · · · NA

16· · · ·(Deft's Response to Plf's 2nd

17· · · · Request for Production)

18· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 4· · · · · · · · · · 65

19· · · ·(Deft's Answer and Affirmative

20· · · · Defenses to Plf's Amended Comp.)

21· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 5· · · · · · · · · · 77

22· · · ·(Photos, Invoices, Hardness

23· · · · Test Results KKM-1 to KKM-167)

24· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 6· · · · · · · · · · NA

25· · · ·(SCI Facebook Pages)

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·1· ·EXHIBITS, Continued:

·2· ·NUMBER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·3· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 7· · · · · · · · · ·109

·4· · · ·(12/17/19 Text Message

·5· · · · SCI-1826 to SCI-1835

·6· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 8· · · · · · · · · ·147

·7· · · ·(Declaration of Mike Marcanio)

·8· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 9· · · · · · · · · ·161

·9· · · ·(Declaration of Tapan Shah)

10· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 10· · · · · · · · · 163

11· · · ·(Vlieger Text Messages)

12· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 11· · · · · · · · · ·NA

13· · · ·(Tungsten Ad)

14· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 12· · · · · · · · · ·NA

15· · · ·(12/5/19 Demand Letter)

16· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 13· · · · · · · · · 204

17· · · ·(12/30/19 Letter)

18· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 14· · · · · · · · · ·86

19· · · ·(Innovatest Documents

20· · · · KKM-168 to KKM-249)

21· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 15· · · · · · · · · ·59

22· · · ·(KKM Website Warranty Info)

23· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 16

24· · · ·(USPSA Nationals Photo)

25

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·1· ·EXHIBITS, Continued:

·2· ·NUMBER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·3· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 17· · · · · · · · · 140

·4· · · ·(Dame/Bradley FBI Inv. Messages)

·5· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 18· · · · · · · · · 126

·6· · · ·(Photographs)

·7· · ·Deposition Exhibit No. 19· · · · · · · · · 216

·8· · · ·(Bunker/Vlieger Messages)

·9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Hanson Virtual Remote

·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Thursday, August 18, 2022

·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:59 a.m.

·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · - - -

·5· · · · · · · · ·COURT REPORTER:· My name is Ann Bacon,

·6· · · · a Michigan State notary public and certified

·7· · · · shorthand reporter and this deposition is being

·8· · · · held via videoconferencing equipment.· The

·9· · · · witness and reporter are not in the same room.

10· · · · The witness will be sworn in remotely pursuant

11· · · · to agreement of all parties.· The parties

12· · · · stipulate that the testimony is being given as

13· · · · if the witness was sworn in person.

14· · · · · · ·R.· · L U C A S· · ·M c I N T I R E

15· · · · was thereupon called as a witness herein, after

16· · · · having been first duly sworn to tell the truth,

17· · · · the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was

18· · · · examined and testified as follows:

19· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

20· · · · BY MR. YEE:

21· ·Q.· ·Could you state your name for the record, sir?

22· ·A.· ·It is Robert Lucas McIntire.

23· ·Q.· ·Mr. McIntire, my name is Ed Yee.· I'm one of the

24· · · · attorneys representing the Plaintiffs in this

25· · · · matter.· Before we begin this morning, have you

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·1· · · · given a deposition before?

·2· ·A.· ·No.

·3· ·Q.· ·I think I saw you appear for some of the other

·4· · · · depositions in this case that have already taken

·5· · · · place, so I'm sure you've heard the rules, but let

·6· · · · me just quickly go back over those.· The first

·7· · · · rule is that as you can see we are all attending

·8· · · · remotely.· Ann, who is our court reporter,

·9· · · · has to take down all of the conversations that

10· · · · take place this morning.· It's important that

11· · · · she can record that accurately.· I'll try to do

12· · · · my best to ask you a question and give you as

13· · · · much time as you need to respond, but please let

14· · · · me finish my question before you respond and,

15· · · · like I said, I'll give you the same courtesy.

16· · · · I'll try not to go into another question until

17· · · · you've finished because, again, it's difficult

18· · · · for our reporter to record people talking over

19· · · · each other.

20· · · · · · · · · Secondly, if I ask you a question

21· · · · either because you didn't hear part of it or you

22· · · · don't understand it, let me know.· I'll be more

23· · · · than happy to repeat it or rephrase it, because

24· · · · if you answer a question, I'll assume that you

25· · · · not only heard it, but you understood it.· Is

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·1· · · · that fair?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·And then finally, if you need to take a break,

·4· · · · let me know.· The only rule is that you can't

·5· · · · take the break if there's a pending question, so

·6· · · · if you'll finish the question, we can certainly

·7· · · · take any breaks that you need to take, and those

·8· · · · are the primary ground rules which I've sure

·9· · · · you've heard many times from earlier.

10· ·A.· ·Yeah, a bunch.

11· ·Q.· ·Are you currently on any medication today that

12· · · · you believe would affect your ability to testify

13· · · · truthfully and accurately?

14· ·A.· ·No.

15· ·Q.· ·Have you ever been convicted of a crime

16· · · · involving fraud or dishonesty?

17· ·A.· ·No.

18· ·Q.· ·Have you ever been charged with a crime

19· · · · involving fraud or dishonesty?

20· ·A.· ·No.

21· ·Q.· ·Can you tell me a little bit about your

22· · · · education since high school?

23· ·A.· ·Educated as a mechanical engineer at University

24· · · · of Nevada, Reno.· I did six years up there

25· · · · actually, and I didn't graduate.· I dropped out

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·1· · · · six months before graduation, but, yeah, done

·2· · · · quite a bit of college education.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you didn't obtain a degree or anything?

·4· ·A.· ·No.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you currently hold any professional

·6· · · · certifications or licenses?

·7· ·A.· ·Does search and rescue count?· That's about it.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell me what search and rescue is?

·9· ·A.· ·I'm a licensed first responder for the State of

10· · · · California.· I do back country search and rescue

11· · · · for Tahoe Nordic.

12· ·Q.· ·And how long have you held that certification?

13· ·A.· ·Couple of years.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you said that that's for the State of

15· · · · California?

16· ·A.· ·Yeah.

17· ·Q.· ·Does that certification apply in the State of

18· · · · Nevada where you're located?

19· ·A.· ·If there's a call on the State of Nevada side,

20· · · · we live right on the border, Tahoe Nordic will

21· · · · assist local agencies, but mostly it's on the

22· · · · California side.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So that's the only certification you

24· · · · currently hold?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Have you had any prior certifications that you

·2· · · · held that have since expired or lapsed in any way?

·3· ·A.· ·No.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Where are you currently employed?

·5· ·A.· ·At KKM Precision in Carson City, Nevada.

·6· ·Q.· ·KKM Precision I understand is a corporation,

·7· · · · correct?

·8· ·A.· ·It is an S corp.

·9· ·Q.· ·When was KKM established?

10· ·A.· ·We originally changed to an S corp in `99, but

11· · · · the corporation started in `91, and it was an

12· · · · LLC before that.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So in 1991 when it was originally

14· · · · established, it was an LLC?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·Who established KKM?

17· ·A.· ·That would be my father, Kevin McIntire.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In 1991 when KKM was established, who

19· · · · were the members, if you know?

20· ·A.· ·Just him.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then you mentioned that in 1999 it

22· · · · became a corporation, is that correct?

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·Q.· ·Do you remember why the decision was made to

25· · · · change it from an LLC to a corporation in 1999?

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·1· ·A.· ·He wanted to bring on my mom, Loretta McIntire,

·2· · · · and then also myself and my younger brother and

·3· · · · at that time it was no longer going to be just

·4· · · · dad working in his little shop.· We decided to

·5· · · · expand quite a bit at that point.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when it became a corporation in 1999,

·7· · · · was it always an S corporation?

·8· ·A.· ·It's always been an S corp, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·So who are the current shareholders then?

10· ·A.· ·It would be myself and my younger brother.

11· ·Q.· ·Just the two of you?

12· ·A.· ·Just the two of us, yes.

13· ·Q.· ·And what is your younger brother's name?

14· ·A.· ·Josiah McIntire.

15· ·Q.· ·In terms of your shareholder interest, are you

16· · · · both 50/50 percent shareholders?

17· ·A.· ·No.

18· ·Q.· ·What is the percentage?

19· ·A.· ·Seventy/thirty, 70 for myself and 30 for my

20· · · · brother.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what is your current title at

22· · · · KKM Precision?

23· ·A.· ·CEO.

24· ·Q.· ·When did you start working at KKM?

25· ·A.· ·Boy, middle school actually.· That's when dad

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·1· · · · brought us in and all the way until now and I

·2· · · · graduated high school in 1998, so, yeah, it would

·3· · · · have been mid to early nineties is when I started.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So ever since you started in 1991 you

·5· · · · would come in and help out?

·6· ·A.· ·Oh, yeah, we were always there.

·7· ·Q.· ·What kind of things did you do when you were

·8· · · · still in middle school helping dad out?

·9· ·A.· ·We started off, like my very first job was

10· · · · chambering barrels back then with a reamer and

11· · · · it was done on a lathe by hand and every single

12· · · · barrel we made had to basically get chambered

13· · · · that way and I spent a lot of my time learning

14· · · · how to operate a manual lathe and sit there and

15· · · · chamber all day long.

16· ·Q.· ·How many employees did KKM have back in 1991

17· · · · when it started?

18· ·A.· ·It was just my dad, and then I would help out,

19· · · · so there were no employees.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What about your brother, Josiah, did he

21· · · · help out?

22· ·A.· ·Not in the fact -- not like how I was.· He was

23· · · · not really brought in until 2001 really.· He

24· · · · moved away for a time, so he wasn't locally here.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So Josiah didn't really get involved in

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·1· · · · the business until 2001?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You said earlier that in 1999 when it

·4· · · · became a corporation, Josiah was made a

·5· · · · shareholder then?

·6· ·A.· ·Not a shareholder.· He was put on as one of the

·7· · · · officers, so I think he was, what was it,

·8· · · · secretary or something like that.· He was just

·9· · · · put on as an officer member.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But he didn't --

11· ·A.· ·No.

12· ·Q.· ·But he didn't really get involved until 2001?

13· ·A.· ·Yeah.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when did Josiah become a shareholder?

15· ·A.· ·It would have been when my dad passed away in

16· · · · 2015 and everything went to probate and at that

17· · · · point everything went to my mom and she decided

18· · · · to basically give myself and my brother the shares.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was it your mother that made the decision

20· · · · to give you 70 and Josiah 30?

21· ·A.· ·It was a joint decision between us all, yeah.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So it sounds like then Josiah became a

23· · · · shareholder sometime after 2015 when your dad

24· · · · passed away?

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry to hear that, by the way.

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· ·Q.· ·And at that time after your dad passed away, you

·4· · · · mentioned that it was probated and your mother

·5· · · · decided to give your brother and yourself shares?

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Was your mother then completely removed as a

·8· · · · shareholder then at that point?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in 1999 when it became a corporation,

11· · · · your mother at some point held a share, correct?

12· ·A.· ·One percent is what she held.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, actually, I'm going to ask you in

14· · · · 1999 when it became a corporation, who were the

15· · · · shareholders in 1999, do you remember?

16· ·A.· ·My dad and my mom and that was it.

17· ·Q.· ·Sounds like from what you just said, your dad

18· · · · was 99 percent and your mom was one percent?

19· ·A.· ·Yeah.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned in 1999 your brother was put

21· · · · on as secretary.· Were you given a title in 1999?

22· ·A.· ·I was, yes.

23· ·Q.· ·What was that title?

24· ·A.· ·Mainly it was VP, vice president.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In 1999 it sounds like you were about a

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·1· · · · year out of high school at that point?

·2· ·A.· ·Yep.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.

·4· ·A.· ·Let me unplug it.· There you go.· Sorry.

·5· ·Q.· ·No problem.· In 1999 when it became a corporation,

·6· · · · did KKM have employees at that time?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·It was just still your dad and you coming in to

·9· · · · help out every once in a while?

10· ·A.· ·Well, I was full-time at that point and then

11· · · · doing college, you know, basically at night, but

12· · · · during the day, yeah, it was just the two of us.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When did KKM start hiring employees?

14· ·A.· ·I'm going to say it was in the mid-2000s, maybe

15· · · · about 2005 to `6, somewhere about in there.

16· ·Q.· ·And do you remember why at that point in time

17· · · · you guys needed to hire employees?

18· ·A.· ·Well, I had just gotten out of college and we

19· · · · were starting to get quite a few military contracts

20· · · · at that point, larger contracts and at that time

21· · · · we were basically going to war in the Gulf and,

22· · · · yeah, we were asked, "You need to start producing

23· · · · a lot more," and that's what we did.

24· ·Q.· ·What types of employees -- what employees were

25· · · · you trying to hire for?· Were they for

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·1· · · · manufacturing or what roles were they trying to

·2· · · · place?

·3· ·A.· ·No, they were primarily shipping and receiving

·4· · · · and doing up invoices and then also cleaning

·5· · · · and, you know, none of the manufacturing side

·6· · · · because we were a CNC machine shop, so we didn't

·7· · · · need people for that.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned earlier that when you were

·9· · · · in middle school helping out, you would work on

10· · · · the manufacturing side manually on a lathe?

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·Q.· ·At what point in time did KKM go to CNC?

13· ·A.· ·Well, we had two CNC machines back then and

14· · · · those were CNC lathe and a CNC mill and we've

15· · · · always, since pretty much day one, we've always

16· · · · had CNC equipment, but I'm just a teenager, but

17· · · · you don't let a kid touch a machine like that

18· · · · until they're educated enough to actually use it.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned that your current title

20· · · · with KKM is CEO, is that correct?

21· ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.

22· ·Q.· ·When did you become CEO of KKM?

23· ·A.· ·When dad passed away, yeah.

24· ·Q.· ·And what are your duties and responsibilities as

25· · · · the CEO of KKM?

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·1· ·A.· ·Run everything, you know, I do all the programming,

·2· · · · all the set-up, run the business side of it, all

·3· · · · of the tax related stuff, pretty much, yeah, I

·4· · · · do it all.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does KKM currently have other employees?

·6· ·A.· ·We've got, there's a total of seven of us right

·7· · · · now, including myself.

·8· ·Q.· ·Does seven include you?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· ·Q.· ·So besides you, there are six other employees?

11· ·A.· ·Yeah, my brother and five actual employees.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you give me the names of the five

13· · · · employees?

14· ·A.· ·We've got first one would be Ethan Rogers.

15· · · · We've got Sawyer Rogers, Chris McIntire, no

16· · · · relation on that, and who is the other guy?· Oh,

17· · · · there's also Amara Somers.· She's our secretary.

18· ·Q.· ·Can you spell her first name?

19· ·A.· ·Amara, M-a-r -- or M-a-a-r-a.

20· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry.· I missed that.· Can you spell that

21· · · · again?

22· ·A.· ·A-m-a-r-a.

23· ·Q.· ·And her last name is Somers?

24· ·A.· ·Somers, yep.

25· ·Q.· ·And I think we're missing one.

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·1· ·A.· ·Yeah, Tony.· It's Anthony, but he goes by Tony,

·2· · · · but I'm drawing a blank on the last name here.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.

·4· ·A.· ·I'd have to look that up, yeah.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What does Ethan Rogers do there?

·6· ·A.· ·He primarily polishes, so like feed ramps and

·7· · · · such, so it's kind of like hand work I would

·8· · · · call it.

·9· ·Q.· ·And how long has Ethan Rogers worked at KKM?

10· ·A.· ·I would say over five years.

11· ·Q.· ·What about Sawyer Rogers, what does he do there?

12· ·A.· ·Same thing, polishing, hand work.

13· ·Q.· ·And how long has Sawyer Rogers been employed at

14· · · · KKM?

15· ·A.· ·Probably five years or less.

16· ·Q.· ·And you mentioned there's a Chris McIntire, no

17· · · · relation?

18· ·A.· ·Yeah.

19· ·Q.· ·How does Chris McIntire spell McIntire?· Is it

20· · · · like yours?

21· ·A.· ·Same exact way, yep.

22· ·Q.· ·And there's no relation?

23· ·A.· ·Yeah, no relation.· He just showed up one day.

24· · · · I was like we've got to be related, but, no,

25· · · · we're not.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And what does Chris McIntire do there at KKM?

·2· ·A.· ·He does the rifling on our blanks, so we do

·3· · · · what's called button rifling, so you pull a

·4· · · · button through a blank that you've already drove

·5· · · · a hole through and he does that process.

·6· ·Q.· ·And how long has Mr. McIntire worked there?

·7· ·A.· ·More than five years.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Amara Somers, what does she do?

·9· ·A.· ·Answers phones.

10· ·Q.· ·And how long has Miss Somers been there?

11· ·A.· ·About a year.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was there someone else answering phones

13· · · · before her?

14· ·A.· ·Yes, that would have been Dan Wrightmans.

15· ·Q.· ·Can you spell Dan's last name?

16· ·A.· ·Let me spell it here.· It's W-r-i-g-h-t-m-a-n-s.

17· ·Q.· ·And then you mentioned Tony or Anthony, whose

18· · · · name we don't have.· What does Tony do there?

19· ·A.· ·Shipping and receiving.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long has Tony worked there?

21· ·A.· ·About a year, maybe slightly less.

22· ·Q.· ·Was there somebody handling the shipping before

23· · · · Tony?

24· ·A.· ·That would have been my brother.

25· ·Q.· ·Josiah?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What does Josiah currently do there?

·3· ·A.· ·He operates one of the CNC machines.· He does

·4· · · · our threading.

·5· ·Q.· ·You mentioned that Josiah became involved in the

·6· · · · business in 2001.· What did he do when he

·7· · · · started in 2001?· Was he always working with the

·8· · · · CNC or did he have other responsibilities?

·9· ·A.· ·No, he's never been trained on the CNCs.· He is

10· · · · doing the exact same thing that Ethan and Sawyer

11· · · · do, so the polishing and hand work.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long has Josiah been doing that?

13· ·A.· ·Since he started.

14· ·Q.· ·In 2001?

15· ·A.· ·Yeah.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· We previously saw on I believe your

17· · · · website there was a reference to a James Hyatt

18· · · · with the title floor manager.· Does this ring a

19· · · · bell at all?

20· ·A.· ·Yeah, he was a couple years ago, maybe about

21· · · · three years ago or so.

22· ·Q.· ·Was Mr. Hyatt fired or did he resign?

23· ·A.· ·He moved away, so he had to resign.

24· ·Q.· ·His title was floor manager.· What did that entail?

25· ·A.· ·He kept track of everything that was basically

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·1· · · · being made.· As they would come off the CNC

·2· · · · machines, they would get prepped for heat

·3· · · · treating and, you know, once they got back from

·4· · · · heat treating, he stored them, so I mean he

·5· · · · basically kind of kept track of what we were

·6· · · · making and would put those into inventory, so he

·7· · · · was technically, yeah, like a floor manager.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did Mr. Hyatt work at KKM?

·9· ·A.· ·Probably about five years.

10· ·Q.· ·Do you have any other family members working at

11· · · · KKM?· I know Chris McIntire is not related, but

12· · · · other than you and Josiah, are there any other

13· · · · family members working there?

14· ·A.· ·No.

15· ·Q.· ·And I know you mentioned your mom never worked

16· · · · there, but your dad was heavily involved in the

17· · · · business when it first got started?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Any other family members work at KKM other than

20· · · · yourself, your father and Josiah?

21· ·A.· ·Yes, just the three of us, that was it.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Regarding Mr. Hyatt, would you have his

23· · · · last known address?

24· ·A.· ·I do.

25· ·Q.· ·Can we get that from you?

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·1· ·A.· ·It's not in front of me, but yeah, I'd have to

·2· · · · get it to you.

·3· ·Q.· ·You don't have to do that right now, but I'm

·4· · · · going to ask you to, when this deposition is

·5· · · · over today, pull that up and provide it to

·6· · · · Mr. Robinson and he'll forward it on to us.

·7· ·A.· ·Sure.

·8· ·Q.· ·Regarding the type of steel that KKM uses to

·9· · · · manufacture its barrels, how is the type of

10· · · · steel determined?

11· ·A.· ·There was a fairly large project with the U.S.

12· · · · military back in the late eighties and that

13· · · · project determined the type of steel that we

14· · · · would use.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you say the late eighties, how was

16· · · · that project connected to KKM when it didn't

17· · · · start until `91?· Can you explain that?

18· ·A.· ·So my dad was one of the principle gunsmiths for

19· · · · all of the special forces units in the U.S. Army.

20· · · · He produced the majority of sniper rifles for the

21· · · · army and he started that in the early eighties

22· · · · or so and it was just under Kevin McIntire

23· · · · Gunsmithing back then, and he was asked along

24· · · · with his good friend Will Schuemann and a few

25· · · · other industry experts to help develop that steel.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you say that steel, what steel are

·2· · · · you referring to?

·3· ·A.· ·It is a type of 416 with certain restrictions

·4· · · · imposed onto it to make it appropriate for

·5· · · · pistol barrel use.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you say there are certain types of

·7· · · · restrictions on it, who came up with the

·8· · · · restrictions?· Was that your father and Will

·9· · · · Schuemann and other experts or was that the

10· · · · military?

11· ·A.· ·It was all of them.· It was a group project that

12· · · · took place over a number of years.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know who any of the military

14· · · · contacts were that were involved in the project?

15· ·A.· ·I do not, but I have been talking to quite a few

16· · · · people in the military about that, trying to see

17· · · · who was involved because that was back when I

18· · · · was just a little kid, but, yeah, I don't know

19· · · · who exactly it was or if they're still even alive.

20· ·Q.· ·So the type of steel and the elements to make

21· · · · that type of steel was part of this project in

22· · · · the eighties?

23· ·A.· ·Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.· Yeah, the U.S. military was

24· · · · trying to get away from the 4150 Chromoly steel

25· · · · that they were using and they wanted to go with

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·1· · · · a type of stainless because it was just

·2· · · · inherently stronger and lasted longer.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know why this project was I guess

·4· · · · necessary or commissioned in the first place?

·5· ·A.· ·Because Chromoly doesn't make a very good

·6· · · · barrel, never has.· Accuracy was very, very

·7· · · · poor, so like most accuracy testing is done at

·8· · · · 50 yards and their groups are five inches above

·9· · · · with Chromoly.· It's pretty terrible, so with

10· · · · stainless you can achieve sub one inch and that

11· · · · was the requirement is they needed something

12· · · · that was a lot more accurate, and they can get a

13· · · · lot more round count on it.· Chromoly was 10,000

14· · · · rounds or less and stainless can be 100,000

15· · · · rounds, quite a bit more.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In terms of the project to determine this

17· · · · type of steel, was this something that was at

18· · · · the request of the military?

19· ·A.· ·Originally, yes, yeah.

20· ·Q.· ·Is there documentation that you're aware of that

21· · · · was created in this project that would show, for

22· · · · instance, any notes or any memos about how it

23· · · · was determined that these were the elements that

24· · · · were needed?

25· ·A.· ·I don't have any of that because it was decades ago.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Were you aware of any type of

·2· · · · documentation to that effect?

·3· ·A.· ·I got my dad's personal notes that he had wrote

·4· · · · down and basically has all of the restrictions

·5· · · · that are required, which we actually submitted

·6· · · · to you guys and, yeah, that's basically all that

·7· · · · we have and have ever had.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the element restrictions that you're

·9· · · · talking about, we were informed of those by way

10· · · · of discovery answers, but we didn't receive any

11· · · · documentation of it.· Are you aware of any

12· · · · written documentation that sets forth these

13· · · · restrictions?

14· ·A.· ·No, because that is from decades ago and we

15· · · · don't have any of that.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned that your dad, he had notes

17· · · · on this, is that correct?

18· ·A.· ·Yeah, and that's what I gave to you guys were

19· · · · his notes.· We wrote that down and it's exactly

20· · · · word for word what it is.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So we haven't seen the note itself when

22· · · · you refer to the notes.· I know the elements

23· · · · were listed in an answer to a discovery request,

24· · · · but we haven't seen the actual notes.· Do you

25· · · · have the actual paper where your dad had those

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·1· · · · notes?

·2· ·A.· ·I can find that again, sure.

·3· ·Q.· ·I'm going to ask that you provide a copy to

·4· · · · Mr. Robinson and we'll get that from him.

·5· ·A.· ·Sure.

·6· ·Q.· ·So when you say that the steel that you used is

·7· · · · this restricted steel, is this proprietary to KKM?

·8· ·A.· ·No, there are other barrel manufacturers that

·9· · · · use the same thing.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know if other barrel manufacturers

11· · · · refer to it as restricted steel?

12· ·A.· ·The term is loosely used that way.· Some people

13· · · · will refer to it as 416R or just 416 or barrel

14· · · · steel.· Everybody has their own term for it.

15· ·Q.· ·Do you know if there's a difference between 416

16· · · · and 416R?

17· ·A.· ·Well, if you are adhering to the restrictions,

18· · · · there absolutely is a difference.· Restricted

19· · · · means it's restricted to certain elements, certain

20· · · · tolerances within those elements.· I've seen 416

21· · · · that is outside of those restrictions, so, yeah,

22· · · · you can't say one way or the other.· It's either

23· · · · within those restrictions or it's not.

24· ·Q.· ·So if I'm hearing you right, there is a

25· · · · difference between 416 and 416R?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·2· ·A.· ·Depending on who makes it.

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) My understanding from

·4· · · · documents that were produced by your company,

·5· · · · steel was purchased through an entity called

·6· · · · Samuel, Son & Company, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·Correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·Who is Samuel, Son & Company?

·9· ·A.· ·They are a steel supplier, so they're a dealer

10· · · · for many different types of brands.

11· ·Q.· ·And it looks like with respect to all of the

12· · · · certificates that we receive from Outokumpu, the

13· · · · steel was purchased through Samuel, Son & Company,

14· · · · correct?

15· ·A.· ·Correct.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· We also saw some certificates of tests

17· · · · provided by Carpenter Technology Corporation

18· · · · that showed that the steel was purchased through

19· · · · Samuel, Son & Company, correct?

20· ·A.· ·Correct.

21· ·Q.· ·And then there was the one document however from

22· · · · Carpenter that showed that KKM bought that

23· · · · directly, is that correct?

24· ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was there a change in how you ordered the

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·1· · · · steel, meaning why was the steel purchased

·2· · · · through Samuel, Son & Company on certain

·3· · · · occasions, but then directly to Carpenter?· Can

·4· · · · you explain I guess the role of Samuel, Son &

·5· · · · Company, the decision to use them or not use them?

·6· ·A.· ·So when we started producing to up until maybe

·7· · · · 2017 or so, we used the type of steel Project 70+

·8· · · · from Carpenter.· We would just call them up

·9· · · · because we had such a good relationship with

10· · · · them and we would tell them, "Hey, we've got

11· · · · these restrictions we need to put onto it.· What

12· · · · steel do you have that would match those

13· · · · restrictions?"· They said, "Hey, Project 70+ is

14· · · · really good stuff.· It matches your formula for

15· · · · what you're using," and so we would just order

16· · · · direct.· We ordered quite a bit of pounds.· It's

17· · · · usually ordered in anywhere from 3,000 to 20,000

18· · · · pounds at a time, so, yeah, it's quite a bit,

19· · · · but Project 70+ was being not discontinued, but

20· · · · there was better steels as the years got along,

21· · · · so we went to Samuel, Son back in, boy, maybe

22· · · · 2012 or so and we started testing other types,

23· · · · so Outokumpu you can't order direct, so we went

24· · · · through one of their distributors, which is

25· · · · Samuel, Son and we've done that with many other

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·1· · · · different dealers out there through the years as

·2· · · · we test all these other brands, et cetera.

·3· · · · Carpenter, yeah, we didn't need to order the

·4· · · · Project 70+ anymore.· The Outokumpu was great

·5· · · · stuff, so we went through their dealer.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Just so I understand, you mentioned back

·7· · · · some time ago you had called them up directly.

·8· · · · Are you referring to Samuel, Son & Company or

·9· · · · Carpenter?

10· ·A.· ·No, Carpenter.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But there was certificates of tests

12· · · · showing that you brought the Project 70 from

13· · · · Carpenter, but through Samuel, Son & Company?

14· ·A.· ·That would have been the BQ5 that we recently

15· · · · just ordered was through Samuel, Son because

16· · · · they're also a dealer for Carpenter.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The Project 70+ that you ordered from

18· · · · Carpenter, you're saying that that was always

19· · · · ordered direct?

20· ·A.· ·My dad would call them up and order it.· I don't

21· · · · believe he got that from anywhere else.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you mentioned that your dad or

23· · · · anybody ordering from Carpenter, you would just

24· · · · call Carpenter directly?

25· ·A.· ·Yeah, yeah.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And the specifications that you needed, these

·2· · · · were communicated to Carpenter just by phone?

·3· ·A.· ·Yep.

·4· ·Q.· ·So you're saying there was no written documentation

·5· · · · setting forth the elements that meet your

·6· · · · restricted steel requirements to them?

·7· ·A.· ·No, because we ordered steel from them for 20

·8· · · · years and we had a really good rapport with them

·9· · · · and, yeah, it was always done over the phone.

10· · · · Same thing with Samuel, Son.

11· ·Q.· ·So there are no purchase orders or order forms?

12· ·A.· ·They would give us invoices, but they would just

13· · · · say how many pounds and what the steel was, you

14· · · · know, it doesn't say anything else, but that's

15· · · · from a really long time ago.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So what you're saying is that when you

17· · · · would order from Samuel, Son or Carpenter, you

18· · · · would simply pick up the phone to place the

19· · · · orders?· There was no written documentation of

20· · · · any kind showing the order?

21· ·A.· ·No.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· If I could share a document quickly here.

23· · · · Can everyone see this document?

24· ·A.· ·Yep.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 1.)

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· We'll label this

·4· · · · document as Exhibit 1 for identification

·5· · · · purposes.· This is Defendant KKM Precision,

·6· · · · Inc's Answers to Plaintiffs' Interrogatories.

·7· · · · Mr. McIntire, I'm going to scroll down here.

·8· · · · Can you see my pointer?

·9· ·A.· ·Yeah, mm-hmm.

10· ·Q.· ·Your Answer to Interrogatory 1 says, "KKM relies

11· · · · upon the following as evidence for the denial:

12· · · · The product specifications from steel

13· · · · manufacturers, Carpenter Technology Corp.· and

14· · · · Samuel, Son & Company order forms from KKM

15· · · · during the relevant time period."· Do you see

16· · · · where I'm referring to?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·What order forms are you talking about here?

19· ·A.· ·Well, most of it is done over the phone, so if

20· · · · there is any order forms, we don't have any in

21· · · · our possession.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, why is your answer here that you're

23· · · · relying on order forms if you know none exist?

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

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·1· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Go ahead and answer.

·2· ·A.· ·I'm not really sure.· Order forms can be over

·3· · · · the phone.· It's whatever they write up. I

·4· · · · don't get copies of those.

·5· ·Q.· ·But your answer to this interrogatory is

·6· · · · indicating that you're relying on evidence in

·7· · · · the form of an order form, but if you're saying

·8· · · · that the only order form that exists would be at

·9· · · · Samuel, Son & Company, how is this an accurate

10· · · · answer?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection to form.

13· ·A.· ·Well, I don't have possession of those.· You

14· · · · would have to contact Samuel, Son.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And the answer here

16· · · · says, "Order forms from KKM."· Is that an

17· · · · inaccurate statement?

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

20· ·A.· ·I have no idea.

21· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So you're saying

22· · · · that if there are any order forms, Samuel, Son &

23· · · · Company would have them.· Is that what you're

24· · · · saying?

25· ·A.· ·Yeah, they would write them up.· It's not

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·1· · · · something we would write.· They're not order

·2· · · · forms from us.· They're order forms for us.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm kind of confused by the statement

·4· · · · order forms from KKM.· It's your testimony today

·5· · · · that you do not have any order forms between you

·6· · · · and Carpenter or between you and Samuel, Son.

·7· · · · Is that what you're saying?

·8· ·A.· ·Not in my possession, no.

·9· ·Q.· ·What about order forms between KKM and Outokumpu?

10· ·A.· ·Don't have any in my possession.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you would order Outokumpu steel

12· · · · through Samuel, Son & Company, is there any

13· · · · written communications for those orders?

14· ·A.· ·No, that's all done over the phone.

15· ·Q.· ·One second here.· I asked you earlier about the

16· · · · different roles of the employees that you have

17· · · · there at KKM.· We talked about Ethan Rogers,

18· · · · Sawyer Rogers, Chris McIntire, Amara Somers and

19· · · · Tony, whose last name we don't know.

20· ·A.· ·Yeah.

21· ·Q.· ·Do any of these employees do any hardness testing?

22· ·A.· ·No, none of them are trained in hardness

23· · · · testing, only myself.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you're the only one that does the

25· · · · testing?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yep.

·2· ·Q.· ·What about your brother Josiah?

·3· ·A.· ·He does not.

·4· ·Q.· ·And how many hardness testers does KKM have?

·5· ·A.· ·One.

·6· ·Q.· ·And what is the brand of that tester?

·7· ·A.· ·Innovatest.

·8· ·Q.· ·How do you pronounce that again?

·9· ·A.· ·It's Innovatest.

10· ·Q.· ·I've been saying it wrong this whole time.

11· ·A.· ·It's from Denmark, so yeah, it's a little different.

12· ·Q.· ·This Innovatest hardness tester, is it attached

13· · · · to any type of computer equipment?

14· ·A.· ·No, it has its own computer in it.

15· ·Q.· ·It's own computer, do you know whether it can

16· · · · store test results or not?

17· ·A.· ·It can.

18· ·Q.· ·Is it a function that you have to manually ask

19· · · · it to do or does it automatically default to

20· · · · storing the results?

21· ·A.· ·I think we've already sent you guys all of the

22· · · · impressions, they call it impressions on it, but

23· · · · it will store it until the next time that you

24· · · · use it, so it will overwrite what the last punch

25· · · · was or impression, but then you can manually

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·1· · · · save it as a PDF as well, so you can make a copy

·2· · · · of it basically.

·3· ·Q.· ·So there is an ability to manually save it?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·You mentioned that you're the only one trained

·6· · · · to use the tester.· Was there a course you had

·7· · · · to take or how did you become trained to use it?

·8· ·A.· ·I was trained by the representative from

·9· · · · Innovatest and he spent a couple of days with me

10· · · · training me on it, certifying me with it and --

11· ·Q.· ·After the couple of days of training, were you

12· · · · provided some type of certificate or something?

13· ·A.· ·No.

14· ·Q.· ·Does KKM have a customer service department?

15· ·A.· ·I handle that.

16· ·Q.· ·Only you?

17· ·A.· ·Yep.

18· ·Q.· ·So none of the other employees you identified

19· · · · earlier are handling customer service issues?

20· ·A.· ·Initial phone call, then they will hand it off to

21· · · · me if there is any type of issue to take care of.

22· ·Q.· ·How are customer complaints documented?

23· ·A.· ·Well, most of it is over the phone, so someone

24· · · · will call us up and say, hey, I have a feeding

25· · · · problem with a barrel.· I'd talk to them and try

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·1· · · · to diagnose what's going on.· Is it ammo, is it

·2· · · · feed ramp, angle wasn't cut enough or something?

·3· · · · So we don't really like write that stuff down.

·4· · · · We just talk it through with them and come up

·5· · · · with a solution.

·6· ·Q.· ·You don't take any notes of any kind?

·7· ·A.· ·Not like that, no.· Everything is just in memory.

·8· · · · I've been doing this so long that I don't need to.

·9· ·Q.· ·Have you ever handled any customer complaints

10· · · · over e-mail?

11· ·A.· ·Some people will e-mail us pictures and say,

12· · · · hey, I've got such and such barrel and this is

13· · · · happening and, yeah, they'll send us some

14· · · · pictures and we can diagnose from those pictures

15· · · · what's going on.· If it isn't fitting in an

16· · · · aftermarket slide or, you know, they did

17· · · · something to it to cause damage or, you know,

18· · · · you can tell a lot from a picture.

19· ·Q.· ·Are these e-mails stored or archived?

20· ·A.· ·Yeah.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who would have access to these

22· · · · e-mails if they're asked for?· Is that just you

23· · · · or anyone at KKM can retrieve these e-mails?

24· ·A.· ·Primarily myself.· My brother could do it.· He

25· · · · does have access to it, but he generally

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·1· · · · doesn't, but, yeah, either myself or him.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned earlier that you guys had

·3· · · · to hire employees back in the mid-2000s, around

·4· · · · 2005, 2006 because of these large military

·5· · · · contracts, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·7· ·Q.· ·Do you have military contracts currently?

·8· ·A.· ·I do.

·9· ·Q.· ·And who are the contracts with?

10· ·A.· ·U.S. Marine Corp, Navy, and the U.S. Army,

11· · · · basically all three branches.

12· ·Q.· ·When was the last time you fulfilled an order

13· · · · for the U.S. Marine Corp?

14· ·A.· ·We currently have one pending actually, so

15· · · · that's just a few weeks away.

16· ·Q.· ·And what's the substance of that contract?· Is

17· · · · it a certain type of barrel?

18· ·A.· ·They are, yep.

19· ·Q.· ·What kind of barrels?

20· ·A.· ·1911 barrels.

21· ·Q.· ·How many barrels?

22· ·A.· ·It's about 30 on there.

23· ·Q.· ·What about the Navy, do you have any contracts

24· · · · currently with the Navy?

25· ·A.· ·Not currently.· The Navy's last order was about

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·1· · · · four months ago.

·2· ·Q.· ·Do you remember what they ordered?

·3· ·A.· ·1911 barrels.

·4· ·Q.· ·Do you remember how many?

·5· ·A.· ·I do not.· It was quite a few, but I don't

·6· · · · remember the exact number.

·7· ·Q.· ·Do you remember the caliber of the barrels that

·8· · · · the Navy ordered?

·9· ·A.· ·They were nine millimeter.

10· ·Q.· ·And do you remember or do you know what the

11· · · · caliber of the Marine Corp order is, the current

12· · · · one?

13· ·A.· ·Nine millimeter.

14· ·Q.· ·And what about the U.S. Army, do you have a

15· · · · current contract with them?

16· ·A.· ·I do.

17· ·Q.· ·And what is that order for?

18· ·A.· ·A mix between Glock barrels and 1911 barrels.

19· ·Q.· ·How many?

20· ·A.· ·I'm going to say that one is probably less than

21· · · · 40 on that one.· Could be 40, yeah, probably

22· · · · about that.

23· ·Q.· ·And do you know the caliber of that order?

24· ·A.· ·Nine millimeter on all of them.

25· ·Q.· ·In your government contracts, has the government

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·1· · · · ever required KKM to have any insurance?

·2· ·A.· ·No, we are considered a sole source provider, so

·3· · · · we are not required to have insurance or

·4· · · · anything like that.

·5· ·Q.· ·So no bonding of any kind or anything?

·6· ·A.· ·No, no.

·7· ·Q.· ·Let's talk about the KKM website for a little bit.

·8· ·A.· ·Sure.

·9· ·Q.· ·I'm going to quote you a statement from the

10· · · · website that you probably already know is a big

11· · · · issue in this lawsuit and what it says is that,

12· · · · "All KKM barrels are made using certified 416R

13· · · · gun-barrel quality stainless steel bar stock.

14· · · · Our barrels are then heat treated and vacuum

15· · · · tempered to 42 RC."· Does that sound accurate as

16· · · · to what the website says?

17· ·A.· ·Yeah, oh, yeah.

18· ·Q.· ·Who authored this content?

19· ·A.· ·My dad originally wrote that.

20· ·Q.· ·Do you remember when he wrote that?

21· ·A.· ·Boy, it was right before he passed actually, so

22· · · · 2015.· He passed in April of 2015, so it was

23· · · · just right before that.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What did the KKM website say before that,

25· · · · do you know?

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·1· ·A.· ·It didn't mention the type of steel or anything

·2· · · · because we were making some out of different

·3· · · · types, but it was pretty close to the same.· It

·4· · · · didn't give a hardness, you know, specifics on

·5· · · · that, but it was pretty close to the same.

·6· ·Q.· ·Do you know why it was necessary to now advertise

·7· · · · or explain what type of steel was used to make

·8· · · · the barrels?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

11· ·A.· ·There were people asking, you know, do you make

12· · · · it out of stainless?· Do you make it out of

13· · · · Chromoly?· Do you make it out of aluminum?

14· · · · There were people starting to ask, so we started

15· · · · to get more specific.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) When you say people

17· · · · were asking, who were some of the people?· Were

18· · · · these just customers, retail customers?· Were

19· · · · these suppliers or who were they?

20· ·A.· ·Retail customers.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how was the information on the KKM

22· · · · website managed?· Is there a person in-house

23· · · · that does that or do you have an outside IT web

24· · · · designer company?

25· ·A.· ·It's just me.· We do have a company that builds

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·1· · · · the website, but I fill in all the details.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When there are changes made to the

·3· · · · website, you're the one that makes the changes?

·4· ·A.· ·Yep.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you keep notes as to what those

·6· · · · changes are?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·And when you do make a change, do you, for

·9· · · · instance, do a write-up on paper or on a

10· · · · computer first and you check for grammar and get

11· · · · it right before you go to the website, or do you

12· · · · simultaneously just make a change on the website?

13· ·A.· ·Just do it on the website, and if everything

14· · · · looks good, it will spell check it, just like

15· · · · any WORD program out there, and when everything

16· · · · looks good, you hit publish.

17· ·Q.· ·I believe you were present during Mr. Bradley's

18· · · · deposition, correct?

19· ·A.· ·I was.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. Bradley was asked about his website

21· · · · advertising in which at one point in time the

22· · · · Shooters Connection website advertised that the

23· · · · barrels were made just from 416 steel, there is

24· · · · no reference to 416R, and he indicated that he

25· · · · would have gotten that information directly from

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·1· · · · KKM.· Is that an accurate statement?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah, probably.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So at some point in time the KKM website

·4· · · · said solely 416 steel?

·5· ·A.· ·Could have been, yeah.· Who knows?· If it was

·6· · · · ten years ago, that's something my dad did, not

·7· · · · something I did.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Hold on just a moment

10· · · · here.· So Luke is being deposed right now, he

11· · · · was Noticed individually, not as a corporate

12· · · · representative with KKM.· I'm fine with him

13· · · · testifying as to any personal knowledge he has

14· · · · with respect to KKM related issues, but I want

15· · · · to make sure the witness doesn't, just don't

16· · · · make assumptions or guess at things.· When

17· · · · Mr. Yee asks you questions, he only wants to

18· · · · know things that you have actual knowledge of as

19· · · · opposed to speculation.

20· ·A.· ·Got it.

21· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Regarding the KKM website,

22· · · · is there anywhere in the KKM website that you're

23· · · · aware of that explains to the public that the

24· · · · 416R stands for 416 restricted?

25· ·A.· ·No.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Why not?

·2· ·A.· ·It's not something we've ever needed to put on

·3· · · · there.

·4· ·Q.· ·Why not?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·6· ·A.· ·People would just call us up, hey, what do you

·7· · · · use, and we'd tell them.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You would tell them what?

·9· ·A.· ·Well, this is the type of steel we use.· This is

10· · · · why we use it.· We give them the history of how

11· · · · 416R came about.· Yeah, we basically tell them

12· · · · everything that I've told you.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you mentioned earlier that different

14· · · · manufacturers have different definitions for the

15· · · · R in 416R, correct?

16· ·A.· ·There are some manufacturers that have their own

17· · · · formula that they use and, yeah, there is no set

18· · · · standard for pistol barrels.· It's a little more

19· · · · standardized for rifles, but there is not many

20· · · · pistol barrel makers out there.· There is very

21· · · · few of us.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But what you're saying is that in order

23· · · · for me to understand KKM's definition for R for

24· · · · restricted is the elements that you've mentioned.

25· ·A.· ·Yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·The only way to find that out is to call?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you don't know why the website doesn't

·4· · · · tell me if I'm just looking at the website?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

·6· ·A.· ·It's not something we've ever done and never

·7· · · · needed to.· This industry is mostly we want to

·8· · · · talk in person.· You know, that's usually how

·9· · · · it's done.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) If that's how it's done,

11· · · · then why do we even have a need for the website?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

14· ·A.· ·Well, that's a stupid question because people

15· · · · want to order barrels online, so you know,

16· · · · that's what people like to do.

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And that's exactly it.

18· · · · If I like to just order online, how would I know

19· · · · that the 416R is a restricted steel with a

20· · · · special formula made by KKM?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

23· ·A.· ·Well, we didn't come up with the formula.· It

24· · · · was a project from decades ago.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) That wasn't my

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·1· · · · question.· My question is you mentioned that

·2· · · · most people would call up, but then you say by

·3· · · · the same token the need of the website is people

·4· · · · like to order online and I'm trying to find out,

·5· · · · if I'm just an online guy, I don't like to talk

·6· · · · to people, how would I know that the 416R is a

·7· · · · special restricted formula that KKM has?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Object to form.

10· ·A.· ·If you want to do some research, you could

11· · · · easily find that out and most people will just

12· · · · give us a call and once we talk to them, they

13· · · · just order online.· If you just want to order

14· · · · online, then you're just going off of our

15· · · · reputation because there is no info really on

16· · · · the product description or anything and --

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Yeah, and that's what

18· · · · I'm trying to understand.· You mentioned if I

19· · · · did some research, how would I know if I did a

20· · · · Google search that the 416R, at least with

21· · · · respect to KKM's definition has certain elements

22· · · · in it that qualifies for this restricted steel?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

25· ·A.· ·Well, you would find that out through fellow

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·1· · · · shooters or through forms.· There's lots of

·2· · · · people that have been talking about it for decades.

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Are you aware of any

·4· · · · other gun barrel manufacturer that has the same

·5· · · · elements as you do for 416R?

·6· ·A.· ·Schuemann actually.

·7· ·Q.· ·Anyone else?

·8· ·A.· ·Bar-Sto did for a time.· SV did when they were

·9· · · · producing stainless.· Now they produce Chromoly

10· · · · barrels.· I tested everybody's barrels.· I have

11· · · · the testing equipment to see what their chemical

12· · · · compositions are in their steel, so, yeah.

13· ·Q.· ·If you know, does Will Schuemann advertise their

14· · · · steel as 416 restricted?

15· ·A.· ·Since he sold the company, I have no idea.

16· ·Q.· ·What about Bar-Sto, do you know if they

17· · · · advertise their 416R as 416 restricted?

18· ·A.· ·I don't know.

19· ·Q.· ·So just so that I'm clear, the only way as a

20· · · · customer that I would know that the KKM 416R is

21· · · · a 416 restricted steel is if I call the company,

22· · · · correct?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

25· ·A.· ·Yeah, I would say yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So in your scenario,

·2· · · · you mentioned that the website is there for the

·3· · · · people who would like to order online.· If I

·4· · · · stick exclusively to ordering online, I wouldn't

·5· · · · know that, correct?

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·8· ·A.· ·That's possible if you didn't want to do any

·9· · · · research, sure.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) All right.· I pulled up

11· · · · another document here.· Can everyone see this one?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Yes.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Should probably make it a

15· · · · little bigger, right?

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes, please do.

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) How is that?

18· ·A.· ·Good.

19· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 2.)

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· We'll label this

21· · · · Exhibit No. 2 for identification purposes.· This

22· · · · is a letter from KKM Precision dated January 9,

23· · · · 2020.· Have you seen this letter before,

24· · · · Mr. McIntire?

25· ·A.· ·Yep, I created it.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You answered my next question.· So you're

·2· · · · the author of this document, correct?

·3· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you write this letter?

·5· ·A.· ·It was in response to a slew of phone calls from

·6· · · · customers and people within the industry saying,

·7· · · · hey, what's going on, you know, we were being

·8· · · · hounded by so many people in the industry.· They

·9· · · · wanted to know, hey, what's going on with this

10· · · · whole thing?· There were a ton of rumors on

11· · · · social media that were saying all kinds of stuff

12· · · · that was just flat not right.

13· ·Q.· ·Regarding this sentence down here where my

14· · · · pointer starts, it says, "We use the very best

15· · · · stainless steel, a type 416R BQ#5 produced here

16· · · · in the United States."· Do you see that?

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Hold on, Ed.· We can't

18· · · · see your pointer.· Can you tell us which

19· · · · paragraph?· Now I see your pointer.· Sorry, in

20· · · · the second paragraph.

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Second paragraph, second

22· · · · sentence.

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Your pointer blended in

24· · · · with the text.· Sorry about that.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· No problem.

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·1· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) I'll repeat the

·2· · · · sentence.· It says, "We use the very best

·3· · · · stainless steel, a type 416R BQ#5 produced here

·4· · · · in the United States."· Do you see that?

·5· ·A.· ·Yep.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who did KKM purchase the BQ#5 from to

·7· · · · support this statement?

·8· ·A.· ·We were actually supplied a test bar of the BQ5

·9· · · · from the U.S. military and it was in 2020 that

10· · · · we actually purchased our first batch of BQ5.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the BQ5 steel you're referring to here

12· · · · was a batch supplied to you from the military?

13· ·A.· ·Yeah.· We ended up getting one bar, it was a

14· · · · 12-foot bar of the Carpenter BQ5 for testing.

15· · · · We made barrels out of it and sent it to the

16· · · · military and the testing was amazing.

17· ·Q.· ·When did you get that steel bar from the military?

18· ·A.· ·It would have been in about 2014 I think is when

19· · · · it first showed up and we made barrels out of it

20· · · · in I would say 2018, somewhere about in there.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you were using BQ5 steel as early as

22· · · · 2014?

23· ·A.· ·It was a test.· It was never for consumer use,

24· · · · made about 20 barrels out of it and all of them

25· · · · went to the U.S. military.· None of them had our

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·1· · · · name on it.· They were just test barrels and

·2· · · · through that testing we determined that, yeah,

·3· · · · that's the very best steel that's ever been

·4· · · · produced, so we put some on order and it was

·5· · · · supposed to show up in 2019, but it never did

·6· · · · because everything got super delayed and COVID

·7· · · · hit in 2020, but late 2020 is when it finally

·8· · · · showed up.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So at this particular moment in time

10· · · · though on January 9, 2020, what you're saying is

11· · · · that the BQ5 barrels that were produced by KKM

12· · · · were only available to the military.· Is that

13· · · · what you're saying?

14· ·A.· ·That's correct.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you're telling the public though,

16· · · · not the military in this letter, that you use

17· · · · the very best stainless steel type 416R BQ5, why

18· · · · are you telling the public that you're using

19· · · · this steel when it wasn't even available for

20· · · · sale to the public?

21· ·A.· ·It was supposed to show up months before that

22· · · · and we were planning on using it and --

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So but at this particular time you had

24· · · · not produced a barrel from 416R BQ5 for sale to

25· · · · the public, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Not to the public, but we were still using the

·2· · · · Outokumpu stuff until it ran out, but we were

·3· · · · supposed to start using it January 1st, 2020.

·4· ·Q.· ·But at this particular time -- okay.· But at

·5· · · · this particular moment in time in January 2020,

·6· · · · when you say that you used the very best

·7· · · · stainless steel type BQ#5, this would be an

·8· · · · inaccurate statement.· Wouldn't you agree?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, form.

10· ·A.· ·No, we were also referencing the Outokumpu type

11· · · · 416 that we were also using, so it's a term that

12· · · · we use for both.

13· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So what you're

14· · · · saying is that the Outokumpu steel is also a BQ#5?

15· ·A.· ·No, it's a type 416 restricted.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you would agree with me that your

17· · · · letter doesn't distinguish between 416R and

18· · · · BQ#5, correct?

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

21· ·A.· ·No, it's a type 416.· We don't distinguish

22· · · · between brands.· We only distinguish between

23· · · · type.· That's why I put type 416, not brand,

24· · · · Carpenter brand Outokumpu.· Those are brand

25· · · · names and we use a type of 416.

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·1· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But it's my

·2· · · · understanding that your position is that the

·3· · · · 416R is made from bulk Outokumpu and Carpenter,

·4· · · · correct?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·6· ·A.· ·The 416 restricted that we use can be made by

·7· · · · many different companies.· Outokumpu is one and

·8· · · · Carpenter is one.

·9· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Now, if you're

10· · · · saying that the brand of steel doesn't matter

11· · · · whether it's Outokumpu or Carpenter, they're

12· · · · both a type of 416R, why was it necessary to

13· · · · include in this sentence here the reference to

14· · · · BQ#5?

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

16· ·A.· ·Because that's the, it's a term referred to as

17· · · · barrel quality.· I could have wrote that in

18· · · · barrel quality, but it's not something that I

19· · · · did.· I kept it abbreviated on that.

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Now, BQ#5, as I

21· · · · understand it, is an actual name or reference to

22· · · · a steel sold to you from Carpenter, correct?

23· ·A.· ·In 2020, yes.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In the documentation we received from

25· · · · your company from Outokumpu, are you aware of

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·1· · · · whether Outokumpu ever refers to BQ#5?

·2· ·A.· ·No, because it's not something that they produce.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So BQ#5 is a term exclusive to Carpenter.

·4· · · · Would you agree?

·5· ·A.· ·If you're referring to their bright quenched

·6· · · · number five, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you mention bright quench.· I think

·8· · · · you were present during Mr. Vlieger's deposition

·9· · · · on Tuesday where the declaration of a gentleman

10· · · · from Carpenter was discussed and he indicated

11· · · · that the BQ in the name BQ#5 stands for bright

12· · · · quench, correct?

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

14· ·A.· ·That's their definition of it, yes.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But it's your

16· · · · testimony that the BQ in BQ#5 stands for barrel

17· · · · quality?

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

19· ·A.· ·Yes, because how we order it is slightly

20· · · · different than what they put on their website.

21· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And how is it different?

22· ·A.· ·We can't get it in the bright quenched because

23· · · · it's hardened at that point and you can't make a

24· · · · barrel out of it.· It has to come in a fully

25· · · · annealled state, so it's dead soft.· It's ten

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·1· · · · Rockwell or less at that point, so the dealer

·2· · · · that we were in contact with referred to it as

·3· · · · jokingly barrel quality is what they called it,

·4· · · · but --

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Ed, when you get to a

·6· · · · decent stopping point, if we can take just five

·7· · · · minutes, no hurry, but when you get to a good

·8· · · · stopping point.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I was actually getting ready

10· · · · to pull up another document.· I haven't put it

11· · · · up on the screen yet, so if now is a good time,

12· · · · that's fine with me.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah, that's great. I

14· · · · just need a quick comfort break.

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Sure.· I have 11:04, so you

16· · · · guys want to say 11:10 just to round up?

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Sure.

18· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 11:04 a.m. to 11:13 a.m.)

19· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Before we continue on,

20· · · · Mr. McIntire, with the open letter, I want to

21· · · · back up for one quick second to the KKM website.

22· · · · I forgot to ask you a question regarding changes.

23· · · · We discussed changes to product specifications.

24· · · · What about warranty information?· Were you ever

25· · · · involved in changing language regarding the KKM

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·1· · · · warranty that comes with the barrels?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·And when would you have made those changes?

·4· ·A.· ·We made changes regularly.

·5· ·Q.· ·And when was the last time you made a change to

·6· · · · the KKM website regarding the warranty?

·7· ·A.· ·I can't recall.· It's been a while.

·8· ·Q.· ·A few months or has it been over a year?

·9· ·A.· ·I'd be guessing.· I'd have to look at when that

10· · · · last change was, but, yeah, I can't recall.

11· ·Q.· ·When you say you have to look, how would you

12· · · · know by looking?· Is there somewhere you can

13· · · · look to see when the change was made?

14· ·A.· ·I would have to look at, you know, you guys

15· · · · submitted the old version of it.· I checked the

16· · · · date on that versus the new one and it would be

17· · · · somewhere between that time period.

18· ·Q.· ·And how would you see the date?

19· ·A.· ·Well, I'm pretty sure your guys' document has a

20· · · · date on it when you submitted it, so, yeah, it's

21· · · · your guys' document.· You took the screen shot

22· · · · of it.

23· ·Q.· ·No, I understand that, Mr. McIntire, but if you

24· · · · were to look and see when the last change was,

25· · · · is there a place that you can look on one of

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·1· · · · your computers to see a date?

·2· ·A.· ·No, nope.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you mentioned that you have to look to

·4· · · · see when the last change was, is there a place

·5· · · · you can look to see when the last change was made?

·6· ·A.· ·Only referencing the screen shot you guys took

·7· · · · compared to what we have now.

·8· ·Q.· ·I'm not talking about the screen shot that we

·9· · · · have.· My question to you originally was when

10· · · · was the last time you made a change, and you

11· · · · indicated it was quite some time ago and you

12· · · · would have to look and I'm trying to understand

13· · · · where you would look to determine when that last

14· · · · change took place?

15· ·A.· ·Like I just said, I'd have to look at what you

16· · · · guys submitted.· There is nothing here at the

17· · · · shop that would tell me that.· The only reference

18· · · · I could go off of is the screen shot you guys took

19· · · · and that's it.· That's the only way I could look.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the document that we have showing the

21· · · · warranty language at that time helps you

22· · · · determine when it was changed?

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the document that we produced, how

25· · · · does that help you determine when it was changed?

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·1· ·A.· ·Well, you have a date on there.· It would be

·2· · · · between that date and today.· It would be

·3· · · · somewhere in that time period.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember why you would have

·5· · · · made a change to the warranty language?

·6· ·A.· ·We had the --

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

·8· ·A.· ·We had in the same time period there was a lot

·9· · · · of customers asking us.· We were getting hounded

10· · · · on the phone, hey, what is your full warranty,

11· · · · and we put it on there.

12· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So what prompted

13· · · · the change were customers calling in asking

14· · · · about what is the warranty?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·What is your understanding of what the warranty

17· · · · said in 2019 say?

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

19· ·A.· ·I can't remember.· That was years ago.

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.· Let me put up a

21· · · · document here real quick.· Can everyone see this

22· · · · document here?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Can you enlarge it please?

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I can.· How is that?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Much better.· Thank you.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Might be a little too big.

·2· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 15.)

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) All right.· So looking

·4· · · · at this document here, Mr. McIntire, we're going

·5· · · · to label this one as Exhibit 15.· I know we're

·6· · · · jumping out of order a little bit, but I pre-marked

·7· · · · this as Exhibit 15.· For identification purposes

·8· · · · this is a screen shot of KKM Precision's website.

·9· · · · Do you see in the upper right-hand corner here

10· · · · there appears to be a date of September 18, 2019?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Object to form.· You can

12· · · · go ahead and answer.

13· ·A.· ·Yes, I can see that.

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Scrolling down a little

15· · · · bit here if you can take a moment there to read

16· · · · the warranty information there and let me know

17· · · · when you're ready to answer some questions about

18· · · · that.

19· ·A.· ·Sure.· "For over 20 years, we have strived --"

20· ·Q.· ·You can read it to yourself quietly.· You don't

21· · · · have to read it out loud to everybody.

22· ·A.· ·Yeah, okay.· Go ahead.

23· ·Q.· ·Looking at this language and the date of when

24· · · · the screen shot points to, does that appear to

25· · · · be language that you're familiar with about this

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·1· · · · time in 2019?

·2· ·A.· ·It looks, yeah, that is our website, and, yeah,

·3· · · · everything looks fine on it.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I notice that in terms of the

·5· · · · warranty information here, it doesn't say a

·6· · · · whole lot other than that, "KKM will accept unused

·7· · · · and unaltered items in its original packaging

·8· · · · and condition for a period of 60 days from the

·9· · · · ship date for a full refund credit or exchange."

10· ·A.· ·Sure.

11· ·Q.· ·It doesn't identify like what are the other

12· · · · terms other than it's got to be unused and

13· · · · unaltered.· Do you see that?

14· ·A.· ·Yeah, it doesn't define it, but --

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you testified earlier that you got a

16· · · · lot of calls and that's when you changed the

17· · · · warranty information on the website, is that

18· · · · correct?

19· ·A.· ·Yeah, people were asking us, you know, can you

20· · · · put your full warranty and not just what we say

21· · · · on the phone, or something like that.· They

22· · · · wanted, hey, let's see exactly what you do for a

23· · · · warranty and that's what we put.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say you got a lot of calls,

25· · · · was that because of the posting of the public

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·1· · · · service announcement and then your posting of

·2· · · · the January 9, 2020 letter that prompted the

·3· · · · calls to ask about the warranty?

·4· ·A.· ·I'm not those people, so I couldn't tell you

·5· · · · what prompted them to call us.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But from a timing standpoint, those calls

·7· · · · that you received asking about the warranty, did

·8· · · · that occur after the public service announcement

·9· · · · by Akai?

10· ·A.· ·They started a couple of months before that

11· · · · actually and really ramped up in later that 2019

12· · · · year.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· If I may ask you just quickly here, the

14· · · · last sentence of the warranty information says

15· · · · that, "If a product doesn't perform as you think

16· · · · it should, please give us a call to discuss your

17· · · · needs," and it provides a phone number.· Do you

18· · · · see that?

19· ·A.· ·Yep.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, if I use a KKM barrel and I don't

21· · · · think it performs, according to this information

22· · · · here, how would I get a refund?· Because it

23· · · · indicates here that it has to be unused.· So is

24· · · · that kind of counterintuitive to each other?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, form.

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·1· ·A.· ·No, we're asking people, hey, if it doesn't

·2· · · · perform as you think it should, give us a call

·3· · · · and we'll discuss maybe potential problems or

·4· · · · what could be happening to it and we'll discuss

·5· · · · it.· That's why we put that in there.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me get back to where I was headed

·7· · · · before the break.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can everyone see this

·9· · · · document here?

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

11· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 5.)

12· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· We're going to

13· · · · label this as Exhibit No. 5.· For identification

14· · · · purposes this is actually A 167-page document

15· · · · produced by KKM in response to Plaintiffs'

16· · · · discovery requests.· They are Bates labeled from

17· · · · KKM, I'm going to skip the zeros, one through 167,

18· · · · But we are specifically on page -- I'm not going

19· · · · to go by page.· Actually, Bates page number

20· · · · KKM-36.· Before the break, Mr. McIntire, you

21· · · · indicated that when you ordered BQ5 steel from

22· · · · Carpenter, what they sold you was actually a

23· · · · little bit different from what they advertised.

24· · · · Is that what you're saying?

25· ·A.· ·Yeah, because it's fully annealed and it says

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·1· · · · that on that cert sheet, it says annealed and

·2· · · · ground.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· How is that different from what they

·4· · · · advertise?

·5· ·A.· ·Well, the bright quench stuff is pretty hardened

·6· · · · and a lot of steel will come pre-hardened, but

·7· · · · we specifically request within our restrictions

·8· · · · that it has to be annealed.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But is the elements that they produced

10· · · · here, the BQ5 steel, anything different from

11· · · · what they show on their website, their data

12· · · · sheets?

13· ·A.· ·Their data sheets give a range and that is

14· · · · within their range.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say earlier that you provided

16· · · · certain elements to Carpenter to meet the 416

17· · · · restricted requirements of KKM that were

18· · · · developed by this project your dad was involved

19· · · · with the military, Carpenter happens to make a

20· · · · steel called #5BQ that fits those elements,

21· · · · correct?

22· ·A.· ·That's correct.

23· ·Q.· ·So there is nothing special that they had to add

24· · · · or take away to custom make any type of steel

25· · · · bar for you.· Is that what you're saying?

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·1· ·A.· ·Not chemically, no.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But what you're saying is the only

·3· · · · difference is whether it was pre-hardened or not?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·But elementally-wise, I'm not sure that's the

·6· · · · correct word.

·7· ·A.· ·Close enough, yeah.

·8· ·Q.· ·But from an element standpoint, chemistry

·9· · · · standpoint.

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·Carpenter didn't have to do anything special or

12· · · · custom for KKM, is that correct?

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

14· ·A.· ·No.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Now, you testified

16· · · · earlier that the BQ5 used by KKM for sale to the

17· · · · public, the shipment didn't come in until

18· · · · mid-2020.· Is this the page that would reference

19· · · · that shipment?

20· ·A.· ·Yes, that is the cert that came with that shipment.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, just to clarify and to

22· · · · confirm my understanding, prior to this date and

23· · · · time, the BQ5 that you're indicating that KKM

24· · · · made barrels out of was a BQ5 bar supplied by

25· · · · the military?

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·1· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· ·Q.· ·And do you know where the military got that BQ5

·3· · · · bar?

·4· ·A.· ·I do not.

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·6· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And do you have any

·7· · · · documentation showing the delivery of that bar

·8· · · · to you from the military?

·9· ·A.· ·No.

10· ·Q.· ·They just delivered it?

11· ·A.· ·I wasn't involved in that.· My dad was.

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.· Can everyone see this

13· · · · document?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· Do I need to make

16· · · · it any bigger for anybody?· I'll assume no.

17· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 4.)

18· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· This is

19· · · · Deposition Exhibit No. 4.· For identification

20· · · · purposes, this is KKM's Answer and Affirmative

21· · · · Defenses to Plaintiffs' First Amended Complaint

22· · · · filed with the court and it's official document

23· · · · number is document 59 and what I'm looking at

24· · · · specifically, Mr. McIntire, is KKM's answer to

25· · · · paragraph 65 of Plaintiffs' First Amended

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·1· · · · Complaint.· If you could take a moment to kind

·2· · · · of read that and let me know, again, quietly and

·3· · · · let me know when you're ready to answer some

·4· · · · questions about this.

·5· ·A.· ·Go ahead.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So in KKM's Answer to Plaintiffs'

·7· · · · Complaint, paragraph 65, you indicate here that

·8· · · · a conversation referenced in Plaintiffs'

·9· · · · Complaint as Exhibit 2 to refresh your memory is

10· · · · a screen shot of a text communication between

11· · · · yourself and a gentleman named Nathan Carter.

12· · · · Do you remember that?

13· ·A.· ·I do.

14· ·Q.· ·You explain here at least in your answer here

15· · · · you indicate that that describes a former

16· · · · manufacturing process that KKM had not used for

17· · · · at least a decade prior to the conversation.· Do

18· · · · you see that?

19· ·A.· ·Yes, okay, I see that, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you mentioned that the U.S. military

21· · · · delivered a bar of BQ5 steel to KKM that your

22· · · · dad was involved in and made barrels strictly

23· · · · for the military, correct?

24· ·A.· ·Test barrels.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And so in your answers here

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·1· · · · that you indicate that it's a process that

·2· · · · hadn't been used for at least a decade.· When

·3· · · · was the test barrels made for the military, if

·4· · · · you know?

·5· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· I believe that was 20 --

·6· · · · I'd be guessing and I don't want to guess, but

·7· · · · it was a number of years ago.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in your communication with Mr. Carter,

·9· · · · you indicate that there are two different types

10· · · · of steel depending on where you get it from.· Do

11· · · · you remember that?

12· ·A.· ·I do, yes.

13· ·Q.· ·You identify in that text communication that

14· · · · there's an Outokumpu and then a BQ5, correct?

15· ·A.· ·That's correct.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So it's my understanding that it's your

17· · · · testimony today that the BQ5 that KKM used to

18· · · · make barrels for sale to the public didn't

19· · · · arrive until mid-2020 and as we saw in the prior

20· · · · exhibit, it was actually August of 2020, correct?

21· ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· ·Q.· ·Why were you telling Mr. Carter in December of

23· · · · 2019 that there was a potential that he could

24· · · · have gotten a BQ5 barrel in December of 2019?

25· ·A.· ·Because the barrels that were sent to the military

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·1· · · · in that BQ5 were floating around all over the

·2· · · · place.· I saw one on eBay and I didn't know if

·3· · · · he had gotten ahold of one of those.· It could

·4· · · · have been very possible.· What the army did with

·5· · · · them after I sent them, I couldn't tell you.

·6· ·Q.· ·And how do you know that these were available

·7· · · · for sale at eBay?

·8· ·A.· ·I had a customer actually call up and ask about

·9· · · · the barrel and the barrels that were produced in

10· · · · that BQ5 was very specific.· They were dimensions

11· · · · that were specific only to them and it was

12· · · · easily identifiable.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how was it easily identifiable?

14· ·A.· ·The twist rate was, the twist rate and the rifling,

15· · · · so rifling usually will have a one-in-16 twist

16· · · · and the ones that we produced in the BQ5 were

17· · · · one-in-32 twists.· They were very, very slow

18· · · · twists.

19· ·Q.· ·And how is the twist determined by looking at

20· · · · the barrel?

21· ·A.· ·You can just look right down it and it's by the

22· · · · naked eye you can see the twist rate in it.

23· · · · It's very obvious.

24· ·Q.· ·And you're saying that you saw the twist rate on

25· · · · a barrel that was advertised for sale on eBay?

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·1· ·A.· ·The customer that had it had mentioned in his

·2· · · · writing that this is a one-in-32 twist barrel

·3· · · · and, yeah, that's what pretty much told me that

·4· · · · that's one of the BQ5.

·5· ·Q.· ·And who was that customer?

·6· ·A.· ·I don't remember.· It's too long ago.

·7· ·Q.· ·And you mentioned that in his writing.· Did he

·8· · · · e-mail you?

·9· ·A.· ·No, the customer sent me I think it was a screen

10· · · · shot of the barrel on eBay.

11· ·Q.· ·And you mentioned it was a long time ago.· Do

12· · · · you remember what year approximately it was?

13· ·A.· ·Boy, I could not tell you.· It was a number of

14· · · · years ago.

15· ·Q.· ·More than two?

16· ·A.· ·Could have been two years, maybe three, but it

17· · · · was too long ago.· I couldn't tell you.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember why that customer

19· · · · reached out to you to find out why it was BQ5?

20· ·A.· ·He wasn't asking if it was BQ5.· He was asking

21· · · · is this a good barrel because it was used and,

22· · · · yeah, he wanted to know.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how did he know to call KKM?

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

25· ·A.· ·We're number one in the industry.· Everybody

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·1· · · · knows us.

·2· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) No, my question is was

·3· · · · there a KKM stamping on that barrel?

·4· ·A.· ·I don't believe so, no.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So these test barrels made from the

·6· · · · military, do you know if any of those barrels

·7· · · · were stamped with the KKM name or logo?

·8· ·A.· ·No, I don't believe so.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you have no idea how this customer

10· · · · knew that it was a KKM barrel?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

12· ·A.· ·We are one of the only companies that produces a

13· · · · 1-in-32 twist barrel.

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· You mentioned

15· · · · that you saw some of these for sale on eBay.· Do

16· · · · you remember when you saw these?

17· ·A.· ·Couple of years ago.

18· ·Q.· ·Were you looking specifically for these barrels?

19· ·A.· ·No.· The guy who called us up, he's the one who

20· · · · asked.

21· ·Q.· ·That particular customer, did he indicate where

22· · · · he bought it from?

23· ·A.· ·He didn't end up buying it.

24· ·Q.· ·Oh, so this was pre-sale?

25· ·A.· ·Well, he let us know.· I told him, hey, it's

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·1· · · · used.· It's probably not usable for what he

·2· · · · wanted to do.· It had already been fitted and he

·3· · · · didn't end up buying it.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know where he was shopping the

·5· · · · barrel at?· Was it on eBay or was it from an

·6· · · · actual seller somewhere?

·7· ·A.· ·I don't remember.· I just remember it was an

·8· · · · eBay website page that he had sent me.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the barrel in the picture you're

10· · · · saying that he sent you was from an eBay page?

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·Q.· ·So he didn't actually have possession of the

13· · · · barrel?

14· ·A.· ·No.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· My recollection is that in a discovery

16· · · · answer you indicated that you mentioned to

17· · · · Mr. Carter that he may have gotten a BQ5 barrel

18· · · · because you assumed he was in the military.· Do

19· · · · you remember that?

20· ·A.· ·Yeah, we had dealt with a Nathan Carter in the

21· · · · Marine Corp and I had made the assumption it was

22· · · · the same guy, but it was not.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, why did you make that assumption?

24· ·A.· ·Same exact name.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· How did you come in contact with the

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·1· · · · Nathan Carter that is involved with this case?

·2· ·A.· ·I believe that was John, however you say his

·3· · · · last name, John Vlieger, yeah, he had mentioned

·4· · · · I guess he had sent over some pictures of Nathan

·5· · · · actually trying to do some Rockwell testing on a

·6· · · · barrel.

·7· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Vlieger tell you that Mr. Carter worked

·8· · · · at Hendrick Motor Sports?

·9· ·A.· ·Not initially.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What did Mr. Vlieger tell you about

11· · · · Nathan Carter, if anything?

12· ·A.· ·Only that he was trying to do some testing and

13· · · · needed some help.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Vlieger indicate what type of gun

15· · · · Mr. Carter had?

16· ·A.· ·No.

17· ·Q.· ·And when you were actually communicating with

18· · · · Mr. Carter, was that exclusively by text or did

19· · · · you ever talk to him over the phone?

20· ·A.· ·I can't remember.· I just remember the text

21· · · · messages.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you mentioned that there was another

23· · · · Nathan Carter that was in the military.· Which

24· · · · branch of the military was that Nathan Carter with?

25· ·A.· ·Marine Corp.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And how did you know that Nathan Carter?· Was he

·2· · · · involved in that barrel project somehow?

·3· ·A.· ·My dad had mentioned that name quite a few times

·4· · · · in the past.

·5· ·Q.· ·Do you remember why your dad mentioned that

·6· · · · Nathan Carter's name to you?

·7· ·A.· ·I don't know why.

·8· ·Q.· ·Do you know if that Nathan Carter was involved

·9· · · · in that barrel project or was he just a KKM

10· · · · customer?

11· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

12· ·Q.· ·The test barrels that KKM manufactured out of

13· · · · the BQ5 bar provided to it by the military, KKM

14· · · · manufactures the test barrels and did all the

15· · · · test barrels go back to the military?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·So KKM had none of these for sale, correct?

18· ·A.· ·Not for sale, no.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.

20· ·A.· ·I have since gotten a few of those back actually.

21· ·Q.· ·And where did you get those back from?

22· ·A.· ·I believe it was the army marksmanship people

23· · · · sent a couple of those back.· They were unused,

24· · · · so they're still new.

25· ·Q.· ·Do you know why they sent them back to you?

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·1· ·A.· ·They wanted some changes on it for the next

·2· · · · batch when they order, so they had marked it

·3· · · · with a marker what dimensions they wanted changed.

·4· ·Q.· ·What kind of changes did they want?

·5· ·A.· ·Radial lugs up on top needed to be a little bit

·6· · · · shorter and then the barrel diameter itself

·7· · · · needed to be a certain type of taper on there,

·8· · · · so dimensional changes on the outside.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In your communication with Mr. Carter,

10· · · · did he send you some pictures showing or

11· · · · depicting him testing his KKM barrel?

12· ·A.· ·John sent me some pictures.· I don't believe

13· · · · Nathan ever did.· I'm the one who sent Nathan

14· · · · pictures of my Rockwell testing to show him the

15· · · · exact position and how to do it correctly.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The pictures that you got from Mr. Vlieger

17· · · · showing Mr. Carter's test, do you remember if

18· · · · this was before or after the test that you

19· · · · indicated the two different types of steel?

20· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.

22· ·A.· ·That was two years ago.· Yeah, I couldn't tell you.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you did have some communication with

24· · · · Mr. Carter on the way that Rockwell tests

25· · · · barrels, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes, my text messages to him.

·2· ·Q.· ·You indicated through discovery that you no longer

·3· · · · have the phone that holds those communications

·4· · · · with Mr. Carter, is that correct?

·5· ·A.· ·That's correct.· I bought an iPhone 13 and

·6· · · · traded the other one in.

·7· ·Q.· ·When did you get rid of the original phone?

·8· ·A.· ·It's when I bought the iPhone 13 when they came

·9· · · · out.

10· ·Q.· ·When was that, do you remember?

11· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you the exact date.

12· ·Q.· ·What model was your prior phone?

13· ·A.· ·An iPhone X, which is the number 10 model.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so what were you looking to do, just

15· · · · upgrade the model of the phone?

16· ·A.· ·Yeah.

17· ·Q.· ·So whenever the iPhone 13 came out or roughly

18· · · · around there is when you replaced that phone?

19· ·A.· ·Correct.

20· ·Q.· ·Had you owned other iPhone products before the

21· · · · iPhone X or 10?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·What other iPhones have you owned?

24· ·A.· ·Pretty much every model since they came out.

25· ·Q.· ·And when you would upgrade from one model to a

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·1· · · · newer model, would you back up the old phone?

·2· ·A.· ·Only the pictures.

·3· ·Q.· ·And how do you back up just the pictures?

·4· ·A.· ·I save them to my desktop.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you perform any type of cloud back-up

·6· · · · on the phone?

·7· ·A.· ·No.

·8· ·Q.· ·Why not?

·9· ·A.· ·Don't need to.· Yeah, I never needed to.

10· ·Q.· ·What about e-mails and text messages, no need to

11· · · · transfer that to the new phones?

12· ·A.· ·No, no, I don't do my e-mails on my phone.· That's

13· · · · my work laptop, which is what we're on right now.

14· ·Q.· ·Let's go back to Exhibit No. 2, which again is

15· · · · the January 9, 2020 KKM letter.· I'm looking

16· · · · specifically at the second paragraph, Mr. McIntire.

17· ·A.· ·Mm-hmm.

18· ·Q.· ·So in the second paragraph here you do a little

19· · · · explanation on how KKM barrels are manufactured.

20· · · · Is that correct?

21· ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And it indicates here that I'm going to

23· · · · start from here where my pointer is, if

24· · · · everybody can see that, it's about halfway down

25· · · · in the paragraph.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Ed, I'm sorry, can we

·2· · · · pause for a moment?· I've got an emergency text

·3· · · · from my wife.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Yeah, sure.

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Sorry, guys.

·6· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 11:44 a.m. to 11:47 a.m.)

·7· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Where we last left off

·8· · · · was back at Exhibit 2, which is the January 9,

·9· · · · 2020 KKM letter.· We're in the second paragraph.

10· · · · I'm going to start about midway through the

11· · · · paragraph here.· It says, "We pull a button through

12· · · · the blanks to create our rifling.· About halfway

13· · · · through the barrel making process the blanks are

14· · · · heat treated at Nevada Heat Treating.· They will

15· · · · then test for Rockwell hardness on these blanks

16· · · · and supply a test report to us."· Regarding the

17· · · · statement about the test report, Mr. McIntire,

18· · · · have you produced these test reports?

19· ·A.· ·In the Excel sheet, you know, they're not a

20· · · · printed out sheet each time.· It's just they

21· · · · give us the minimum and maximum what they got

22· · · · and that was in that Excel sheet that we sent to

23· · · · you guys.

24· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 5.)

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· And let me

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·1· · · · switch gears here, so just to make sure we're on

·2· · · · the same page.· This is Exhibit No. 5, the Excel

·3· · · · sheet.· I'm flying through this, but I may have

·4· · · · gone too far.· Yeah, I've gone too far.

·5· · · · Actually, look at my paper copy.· It might be

·6· · · · faster for me to find it that way before I get

·7· · · · everybody dizzy.· Yep, I went way too far.· So

·8· · · · this starts at page ten, Bates label page ten.

·9· · · · All right.· We're at the page that is labeled

10· · · · KKM-10.

11· ·A.· ·Yep.

12· ·Q.· ·This is the information you're referring to,

13· · · · Mr. McIntire?

14· ·A.· ·Yep.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So this is a spread sheet of the test

16· · · · results that you're referring to in the

17· · · · January 9, 2020 letter?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I notice that there is on KKM-12 there is

20· · · · a test report here that there is something that

21· · · · tests as low as 39.2.· Do you see that?

22· ·A.· ·Yep.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And there's some here, at least do you

24· · · · know what these numbers on the left-hand column

25· · · · identify, for instance, this 90800 number?

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·1· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· It's the Nevada Heat Treat

·2· · · · number.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But do you see in the corresponding right

·4· · · · column it says it tests at 38.5 to 38.9?

·5· ·A.· ·Yep.

·6· ·Q.· ·Now, scrolling down after these numbers, we're

·7· · · · going to go to the page that's labeled KKM-49.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can everyone see this?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah.· And, Ed, one more

10· · · · pause.· We don't have to go off the record. I

11· · · · just want you guys to know I'm going to rejoin

12· · · · in this from my cell phone.· Nick Mari is going

13· · · · to take over defending the deposition for an hour,

14· · · · hour and a half or so while I go kill a snake.

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yep.

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Oh, boy.· Good luck.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Thanks, guys.· Okay.

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Nineteen caliber.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Just to make sure, I don't

20· · · · see Mr. Mari.· Nick, are you there?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. MARI:· I'm here.· I apologize.

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I just wanted to make sure

23· · · · you were there before we proceeded.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. MARI:· Appreciate it.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So we're at KKM-49.· This

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·1· · · · appears to be an e-mail from a gentleman named

·2· · · · Steve Fuller at Nevada Heat Treating to an e-mail

·3· · · · address with the name support@kkmprecision.com

·4· · · · dated May 5, 2020.· Do you see that?

·5· ·A.· ·Yep.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· It says, "To Whom It May Concern, the

·7· · · · attached spread sheet reports hardness readings

·8· · · · for each order of barrels Nevada Heat Treating

·9· · · · has processed for KKM Precision from 2015

10· · · · through April of 2020," and it appears that, if

11· · · · you know, Mr. Fuller is referring to the spread

12· · · · sheet numbers we talked about earlier, correct?

13· ·A.· ·That's correct.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· He also indicates that?· Copies of all

15· · · · records are available upon written request from

16· · · · KKM Precision."· Do you see that?

17· ·A.· ·Yep.

18· ·Q.· ·Have you requested these records from Mr. Fuller?

19· ·A.· ·From Nevada Heat Treat, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you submit this request in writing?

21· ·A.· ·No, it was over the phone.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who did you talk to?· Was it Mr. Fuller?

23· ·A.· ·No.

24· ·Q.· ·Who did you talk to?

25· ·A.· ·I don't remember who I talked to.· It was

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·1· · · · someone in their head office.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the response to your request

·3· · · · for the records of these tests?

·4· ·A.· ·They said they will draw them up and send them

·5· · · · to us and we haven't received them yet.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The person you talked to, did they indicate

·7· · · · approximately when they would have them?

·8· ·A.· ·No.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When did you make that call to Nevada

10· · · · Heat Treat?

11· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you exact date, but it was

12· · · · sometime in 2020.

13· ·Q.· ·Sometime in 2020, so it would have been sometime

14· · · · after May 5, 2020, correct?

15· ·A.· ·Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·And you still haven't received them?

17· ·A.· ·Not yet.

18· ·Q.· ·Did you do any follow-up with the people at

19· · · · Nevada Heat Treat to say, hey, where are these

20· · · · records for these tests?

21· ·A.· ·I don't believe I have.· We're just waiting on

22· · · · them.

23· ·Q.· ·Why not?

24· ·A.· ·We haven't had any, you know, demand for it yet.

25· · · · We're just waiting on them to produce it.

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·1· · · · There's quite a few records.

·2· ·Q.· ·Well, in Plaintiffs' discovery requests we have

·3· · · · asked for all records pertaining to the testing

·4· · · · of barrels by Nevada Heat Treat, so there has

·5· · · · been a request and it was the subject of a

·6· · · · Motion to Compel before a magistrate in the

·7· · · · court a couple weeks ago and this was discussed

·8· · · · and my understanding is that by representation

·9· · · · of your attorney that a request would be made to

10· · · · Nevada Heat Treat and you're indicating that you

11· · · · haven't made a request yet?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. MARI:· Objection to form.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

14· ·A.· ·And we did, we made the request.· It takes them

15· · · · time to actually do that.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) But that request was in

17· · · · 2020, correct?

18· ·A.· ·When I initially called them, yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But no follow-up with them since, correct?

20· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· No, I haven't called them.

21· · · · I've been over there quite a few times every

22· · · · time we got barrels.· They're just down the

23· · · · street from us, so --

24· ·Q.· ·In your visits to them to pick up barrels, did

25· · · · you mention to anyone there that you were still

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·1· · · · waiting for these records?

·2· ·A.· ·I don't recall.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So other than the original request in 2020

·4· · · · that you're sure that you made over the phone to

·5· · · · someone that you don't know who you talked to,

·6· · · · you don't recall if you made any other follow-up

·7· · · · requests.· Is that what I'm hearing?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection to form.

·9· ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't recall.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) After today will you do

11· · · · a follow-up with Nevada Heat Treat?

12· ·A.· ·Yeah.

13· ·Q.· ·And will you do that by phone or in writing?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

15· ·A.· ·I'll probably just go over there.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Just note also with respect

18· · · · to any follow-up discovery requests, Luke is here

19· · · · today.· He's been Noticed individually and not

20· · · · as a corporate representative of KKM, so to the

21· · · · extent that you're making a request for follow-up

22· · · · discovery from KKM, I want to note that that's

23· · · · separate from what Luke is here for today.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Noted.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Let's go back to

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·1· · · · Exhibit No. 2, which again is the January 9, 2020

·2· · · · KKM letter.

·3· ·A.· ·Mm-hmm.

·4· ·Q.· ·I think before I left off, the next sentence is,

·5· · · · "We then finish machining the blanks into

·6· · · · barrels and test for hardness again on our own

·7· · · · automatic --"

·8· ·A.· ·Innovatest.

·9· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry.· What was that?· How do you pronounce

10· · · · that?

11· ·A.· ·Innovatest.

12· ·Q.· ·"Innovatest versus 720 RS Rockwell hardness

13· · · · tester.· We compare and record the results to

14· · · · make sure the barrels are within spec."· Do you

15· · · · see that?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·You indicate here that you record the results?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Where are those records?

20· ·A.· ·They are -- the machine will record it until the

21· · · · next time that you actually use it, and then it

22· · · · will overwrite that last one, so they're recorded

23· · · · usually for heat treats are about a week apart,

24· · · · sometimes two, and yeah.

25· ·Q.· ·So you have no record retention policy for these

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·1· · · · test results?

·2· ·A.· ·Not long-term, no.

·3· ·Q.· ·It sounds like not even short-term.· It sounds

·4· · · · like the next time you use the tester, it

·5· · · · overwrites whatever was previously tested, right?

·6· ·A.· ·Yeah, every one to two weeks.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Why don't you keep these records?

·8· ·A.· ·Don't need to.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And why don't you need to?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

12· ·A.· ·That's the way the machine works.· We don't need

13· · · · to keep a record of that.

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But you indicated

15· · · · earlier that there was a way to manually override

16· · · · the machine so it would save the results?

17· ·A.· ·Yeah.

18· ·Q.· ·So my question is why don't you see a need to

19· · · · keep these results?

20· ·A.· ·Those initial results we don't need to.· If a

21· · · · customer requests, we will test just the barrels

22· · · · for that specific order and we will put part

23· · · · numbers, invoice number, the customer's name and

24· · · · every single barrel and what they punched on

25· · · · there, it's saved as a PDF, and we will save

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·1· · · · that and we have.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But if a customer calls and asks what

·3· · · · were the test results, those are not available

·4· · · · is what you're saying?

·5· ·A.· ·They would need to request that before the tests

·6· · · · are done.· That way we can go ahead and manually

·7· · · · save it and then either send it with the order

·8· · · · or e-mail it to them.

·9· ·Q.· ·The PDF document you're referring to, where are

10· · · · those records?

11· ·A.· ·They're stored in the machine and we have

12· · · · submitted all those I guess to you guys.

13· ·Q.· ·And what information is contained in those PDF

14· · · · documents?

15· ·A.· ·Name, invoice number, what the barrels are, so

16· · · · part numbers and the actual test itself, the

17· · · · impression is saved.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And this is for each customer?

19· ·A.· ·That requests it, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·So if it's not requested by a customer, it

21· · · · wouldn't be in the machine as a PDF document?

22· ·A.· ·No, because you have to manually save it.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so you're saying that these documents

24· · · · produced -- let me --

25· ·A.· ·Yeah, that's one of them.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 14.)

·2· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So this is

·3· · · · Exhibit No. 14.· For identification, this is the

·4· · · · documents produced by KKM that are Bates labeled

·5· · · · KKM-168 to 249, so these are the PDF documents

·6· · · · you're talking about?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep.

·8· ·Q.· ·And these are the ones you're talking about that

·9· · · · are stored as a PDF in the machine itself?

10· ·A.· ·That's correct.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in order for this to be saved in the

12· · · · machine, it has to be requested by the customer?

13· ·A.· ·Yes.

14· ·Q.· ·And looking at page one here, which is Bates

15· · · · labeled KKM-168?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·Who is the customer here?

18· ·A.· ·That one is actually a certification test on the

19· · · · machine.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What about the next page labeled as

21· · · · KKM-169?

22· ·A.· ·Same thing, certification test.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the third page which is labeled KKM-170?

24· ·A.· ·A certification test on it.· We're testing the

25· · · · certification blocks that come with the machine

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·1· · · · and usually those are performed by an Innovatest

·2· · · · representative.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Page four, which is KKM-171, is this also

·4· · · · a test?

·5· ·A.· ·It is.

·6· ·Q.· ·And page five, which is KKM-172 looks like a run

·7· · · · on from the previous page, is that correct?

·8· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·9· ·Q.· ·And we have page six, which is KKM-173, it looks

10· · · · like there's a note here that it's Cheeley

11· · · · Custom Guns, is that correct?

12· ·A.· ·That is an order, correct.

13· ·Q.· ·So this is a customer?

14· ·A.· ·That's the customer.

15· ·Q.· ·What you're saying is that this result here was

16· · · · saved because Cheeley requested the test results?

17· ·A.· ·Yes.

18· ·Q.· ·And as I look at this, there is ten lines here.

19· · · · Does that mean to say that there were ten barrels?

20· ·A.· ·That's correct.

21· ·Q.· ·And these ten barrels were tested, is that correct?

22· ·A.· ·Yep.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, were these barrels from Cheeley,

24· · · · were these part of an order for barrels from you

25· · · · or were these barrels that Cheeley sent back to

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·1· · · · you for testing?

·2· ·A.· ·Those were barrels that he had ordered.

·3· ·Q.· ·And when Cheeley asked that they be tested, how

·4· · · · did Cheeley make that request?· Was it over the

·5· · · · phone or was it in writing?

·6· ·A.· ·It would have been over the phone.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember who you talked to at

·8· · · · Cheeley regarding the testing?

·9· ·A.· ·There is only Matt Cheeley there.· It's only him.

10· ·Q.· ·So Matt Cheeley called you on the phone and asked

11· · · · that the barrels part of this order be tested?

12· ·A.· ·Yep.

13· ·Q.· ·Did Matt Cheeley explain why he wanted the

14· · · · barrels tested as part of this order?

15· ·A.· ·He was curious with all the rumors that were

16· · · · spreading around, he said, hey, go ahead and

17· · · · punch them.· He was curious.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· As part of this Cheeley order, the ten

19· · · · barrels that are tested here, is there a way for

20· · · · you to determine if these barrels are manufactured

21· · · · from the Outokumpu steel or the Carpenter

22· · · · Project 70?

23· ·A.· ·They would have been only the Outokumpu steel.

24· ·Q.· ·And how do you know that?

25· ·A.· ·Because the Project 70 was for a different type

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·1· · · · of barrel.· It wasn't for the 1911 at that time.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you use the Project 70 for?

·3· · · · What type of barrel would you manufacture with

·4· · · · that steel?

·5· ·A.· ·In 2014 I think is when we stopped producing

·6· · · · 1911s out of it.· There may have been a couple

·7· · · · of small individual barrels, but we primarily

·8· · · · use it for Beretta barrels, high-power barrels

·9· · · · and Sig Sauer barrels.

10· ·Q.· ·Can you clarify the date again, when did you

11· · · · stop using Project 70 for the 1911 style barrels?

12· ·A.· ·It would have been around 2014.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So would it have been possible for

14· · · · someone to have purchased a barrel, a KKM barrel

15· · · · made of Project 70 say, for instance, in 2018 or

16· · · · 2019?

17· ·A.· ·If they bought it through somebody else,

18· · · · absolutely.· Directly from us, no.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And is it possible because the, for

20· · · · instance, that supply of the Project 70 barrels

21· · · · that were made from Project 70 sold supply, or

22· · · · depending on how quickly or how slowly they sold

23· · · · the inventory?

24· ·A.· ·That would be correct.

25· ·Q.· ·For instance, that project 70 barrel that you

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·1· · · · stopped making in 2014, it was possible that

·2· · · · that could have been purchased in 2019 through a

·3· · · · supplier that if they still had an inventory,

·4· · · · correct?

·5· ·A.· ·Yeah, definitely.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, the Project 70, I notice from

·7· · · · looking at the Carpenter data sheets, they don't

·8· · · · refer to that as a BQ5.· Would you agree with me?

·9· ·A.· ·That's correct.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So a Project 70 barrel you agree is not

11· · · · the same as a BQ5 barrel, correct?

12· ·A.· ·Well, it's dimensionally exactly the same.

13· · · · Chemically, there are some minor differences

14· · · · chemically in it.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· This is page eight on Exhibit 14.· It's

16· · · · labeled KKM-175.

17· ·A.· ·Yep.

18· ·Q.· ·Who is the customer here?

19· ·A.· ·Nobody.· This is for reference to give the

20· · · · customers so that they could see certain

21· · · · positions.· If you test on a barrel, you will

22· · · · get different results depending on the position

23· · · · that you're testing on it, so it's for reference

24· · · · to give the customers if they want to perform

25· · · · their own Rockwell testing.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And it looks like there are only four barrels,

·2· · · · correct?

·3· ·A.· ·No, there's one barrel, four different spot.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And I notice that there are some test

·5· · · · results that are pretty low here, would you

·6· · · · agree, 36.82 and 31.06?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep.· You test on wrong spots of the barrel, you

·8· · · · will get so much deflection, that it will show

·9· · · · results that are quite a bit lower.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then this test result here that's

11· · · · 41.39, where on the barrel is this tested?

12· ·A.· ·Number one is in front of the lug on the bottom

13· · · · of the barrel.· It's on the round part of the

14· · · · barrel, so the chamber end is what we call it

15· · · · and that one there we use 355 plug gage to go

16· · · · into that chamber to support the inside of it to

17· · · · try to get as little deflection as possible.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you would agree with me that test

19· · · · position number one is less than 42, correct?

20· ·A.· ·Very slightly, yes.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, test position number four indicates

22· · · · that there is a shape correction used.· What is

23· · · · the shape correction?

24· ·A.· ·Whenever you test on the cylindrical part of a

25· · · · part, you have to use shape correction and a

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·1· · · · digital Rockwell test or like the one I own will

·2· · · · do that automatically.· You just put the diameter

·3· · · · of what you're testing, so the curvature of it

·4· · · · and it will automatically adjust for that shape

·5· · · · correction.

·6· ·Q.· ·If it's adjusting for the shape, shouldn't in

·7· · · · theory it test the same as other surfaces then?

·8· ·A.· ·Oh, absolutely not.· You're testing a tube, so

·9· · · · that position number four is a 575 diameter tube

10· · · · and you're basically squishing that tube, so

11· · · · you're getting a tremendous amount of flexion in

12· · · · it, that's why it's ten plus points lower.

13· ·Q.· ·So on the cylindrical surface it's going to be

14· · · · naturally softer?

15· ·A.· ·It's not softer.· You're getting deflection.

16· · · · You're squishing it is what you're doing.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Page nine which is KKM-176, does that

18· · · · indicate a customer here?

19· ·A.· ·No, it's basically the exact same thing as the

20· · · · one above that you were just showing me. I

21· · · · think I just added in what the barrel was, but

22· · · · it's the exact same test.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.

24· ·A.· ·It's a copy.

25· ·Q.· ·Let me go to -- actually, I have to go further.

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·1· · · · Bear with me here.· Okay.· Here we are.· Actually,

·2· · · · let me grab another document real quick.· Okay.

·3· · · · Can you still see Exhibit 14 here?

·4· ·A.· ·Yep.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And we're looking at page 58, which is

·6· · · · labeled KKM-225.· Do you see that?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me jump over that to Exhibit No. 5.

·9· · · · Why is this not centered?· Okay.· And this is

10· · · · labeled KKM-47.· When I compare these two pages,

11· · · · they appear to be the same test, is that correct?

12· ·A.· ·Yeah, there were multiple copies of it saved.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I notice on the page that's labeled

14· · · · KKM-47 under test number five, there's a

15· · · · reference to cryo here.· Do you see that?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·But on KKM-225, which is the same test under

18· · · · comment box five there is no notation of cryo.

19· · · · Do you know why that is?

20· ·A.· ·Because as I'm saving it, I am filling in all

21· · · · those descriptions and I was just saving copies

22· · · · as I was creating that document.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So KKM-47 was produced earlier in time

24· · · · than KKM-225.· Would you agree?

25· ·A.· ·I need to see the other one.· Yeah, the one

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·1· · · · without it is an earlier version and the one

·2· · · · with the cryo is the last version of it.

·3· ·Q.· ·But KKM-168 to KKM-249 was just produced to us I

·4· · · · believe last Friday.

·5· ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So but you're saying that this page,

·7· · · · KKM-225 is actually earlier in time?

·8· ·A.· ·Well, I'd have to see all of them right in a

·9· · · · row, but that document was created for our

10· · · · expert, Dr. Swanger, and all of these barrels

11· · · · went to him for testing.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What I'm trying to understand is that

13· · · · KKM-47, which was produced I believe back

14· · · · earlier this year.· I don't remember the exact

15· · · · month.· I want to say maybe back in May or so.

16· ·A.· ·Yeah.

17· ·Q.· ·The same test page we're talking about, again,

18· · · · KKM-47, KKM-225, KKM-47 has a cryo note, but

19· · · · you're saying that this was later than KKM-25?

20· ·A.· ·Probably.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Then why wasn't this original version

22· · · · that had no cryo note produced back in May?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Hold on.

24· · · · Luke has been Noticed here individually.· He's

25· · · · not a corporate rep of KKM today and you're

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·1· ·asking questions about why KKM did or didn't

·2· ·produce things on certain dates and that's just

·3· ·not within the scope of what he's been Noticed

·4· ·for today.· I'm going to instruct him not to

·5· ·answer the question.

·6· · · · · · MR. YEE:· That's noted, Kevin, however,

·7· ·we also indicated to you that we may be taking

·8· ·the 30(b)(6) deposition of KKM and you indicated

·9· ·to us that Mr. McIntire was the 30(b)(6)

10· ·representative, so just for the record.

11· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· And then you never sent

12· ·a 30(b)(6) Notice identifying areas of inquiry

13· ·or Noticing a 30(b)(6) representative, which is

14· ·required.

15· · · · · · MR. YEE:· We haven't done that yet, but

16· ·I just want to clarify that you indicate that he

17· ·is the person that's the corporate representative,

18· ·but you're now indicating that he's not in a

19· ·capacity to testify to these documents?

20· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· I didn't say he doesn't

21· ·have the capacity to testify to these documents.

22· ·I said he hasn't been Noticed as a corporate

23· ·representative here today.· You're asking him

24· ·why an entity didn't produce things in litigation.

25· ·That's not how he's been Noticed today.· That's

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·1· ·not a personal knowledge issue.· That has to do

·2· ·with advice that the entity received from

·3· ·counsel through discovery.· He's not answering

·4· ·those questions.

·5· · · · · · MR. YEE:· And we gave you a lot of

·6· ·leeway yesterday during Mr. Horowitz's

·7· ·individual deposition when you asked him about

·8· ·the corporate financial records of Akai.

·9· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· And I've similarly given

10· ·significant leeway today when you've been asking

11· ·questions about KKM.· You're asking a specific

12· ·question about why KKM did or didn't produce

13· ·discovery at different times in litigation.

14· ·That's not within the scope of what Mr. McIntire

15· ·has been Noticed here for today, but I've

16· ·extended to you the same courtesy which you

17· ·extended yesterday with respect to the entity's

18· ·operations and workings.

19· · · · · · MR. YEE:· We lost you there, Kevin.

20· ·Kevin, are you there?

21· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah.· Sorry.· I'm still

22· ·in the car heading back.

23· · · · · · MR. YEE:· I don't remember where we

24· ·lost you.· I don't know if Ann can help us with

25· ·that.· I don't know if you want to I guess

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·1· · · · complete your statement, but we lost you

·2· · · · somewhere in there.

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah, if she could read

·4· · · · off where we left off.· Ann, can you read where

·5· · · · you ended?

·6· · · · · · · · ·(Reporter reads back statement.)

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· And the end of

·8· · · · that sentence was, which is I've allowed you to

·9· · · · ask questions regarding KKM's practices,

10· · · · policies and procedures.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) All right.· Let's go

12· · · · back to Exhibit No. 2, which again is the

13· · · · January 9, 2020 KKM letter.· Mr. McIntire, did

14· · · · you provide a copy of this letter to Mr. Bradley

15· · · · at Shooters Connection?

16· ·A.· ·I did.

17· ·Q.· ·And did you tell him it was okay or did you

18· · · · authorize him to publish this on the Shooters

19· · · · Connection Facebook page?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·And why did you do that?

22· ·A.· ·Just to quench some of the phone calls that we

23· · · · were getting.· We don't do social media, so we

24· · · · have no outlet to do that and I couldn't figure

25· · · · out a way to actually post that on my own

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·1· · · · website, so he volunteered to put that out and

·2· · · · basically get ahead of all of these phone calls

·3· · · · that we're getting.· It was tying up our phone

·4· · · · lines, our e-mails.· Yeah, it was causing quite

·5· · · · a bit of damage to the business.

·6· ·Q.· ·When you say it was causing damage to the

·7· · · · business, what type of damage was it causing?

·8· ·A.· ·There were rumors that our barrels were being

·9· · · · made overseas, there were rumors that our

10· · · · barrels were being made in a company that wasn't

11· · · · ours.· The manufacturing process, people were

12· · · · describing how we were making barrels and it was

13· · · · completely just not right.· People were just

14· · · · making stuff up online and spreading all kinds

15· · · · of rumors that we have been having problems for

16· · · · decades and we were trying to cover it up and

17· · · · just rumors and rumors and rumors.

18· ·Q.· ·And these online rumors, are you able to determine

19· · · · that it caused any change in the sales of KKM?

20· ·A.· ·In 2020 we were down almost 50 percent.

21· ·Q.· ·And you attribute that to the rumors?

22· ·A.· ·A lot of it, yes.

23· ·Q.· ·And how are you able to do that?

24· ·A.· ·Because every other firearms business out there,

25· · · · even though COVID was really ramping up right

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·1· · · · then, was having record profits and we should

·2· · · · have been no different.· We had some clients

·3· · · · that were so afraid that they stopped ordering

·4· · · · and one of them would have been Taran Tactical.

·5· · · · He started to believe what Shay was saying

·6· · · · online and he freaked out and he has since come

·7· · · · back and knows that, okay, that was all just a

·8· · · · bunch of BS, and now he's back to ordering a

·9· · · · bazillion barrels again, so --

10· ·Q.· ·Did Mr. Taran actually tell you that he wasn't

11· · · · going to buy barrels because of what was going on?

12· ·A.· ·He said that until all this was sorted out, he

13· · · · could not trust what was going on.

14· ·Q.· ·And when did you talk to Mr. Taran?

15· ·A.· ·Couple of years ago.· It would have been in 2020

16· · · · sometime.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And he specifically told you that he

18· · · · wasn't going to buy anymore KKM barrels until

19· · · · this got sorted out?

20· ·A.· ·His company that builds his guns would not be

21· · · · buying anymore until this was sorted out.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you indicated that he's now back to

23· · · · buying barrels, is that correct?

24· ·A.· ·Yep, yep.

25· ·Q.· ·When did he do that?

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·1· ·A.· ·It was probably late 2020, so for a six to

·2· · · · eight-month period, yeah, he stopped and then

·3· · · · found out, yeah, it was all BS and started

·4· · · · ordering again.

·5· ·Q.· ·When you say that he found out it was all BS,

·6· · · · did he tell you this?

·7· ·A.· ·Not directly.· He had talked to other industry

·8· · · · experts and companies that also buy our barrels

·9· · · · and every single one of them said the exact same

10· · · · thing.

11· ·Q.· ·And who were these other industry experts he

12· · · · talked to?

13· ·A.· ·He didn't give me a list.· He just said I've

14· · · · talked to everyone in the industry.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But he didn't give you a name?

16· ·A.· ·No.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So back to the January 9, 2020 letter in

18· · · · the first paragraph, third sentence, "Prior to a

19· · · · Facebook post in October of 2019 by this company

20· · · · claiming soft barrels, KKM Precision was not

21· · · · made aware of any issues with our heat treating

22· · · · or manufacturing process."· Do you see that?

23· ·A.· ·Yep.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the Facebook post in October 2019, are

25· · · · you referring to the public service announcement

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·1· · · · posted by Akai?

·2· ·A.· ·Yep.

·3· ·Q.· ·And is it your testimony that prior to that

·4· · · · posting you had not heard from anyone regarding

·5· · · · any issues with your barrels that Akai was having?

·6· ·A.· ·In regard to heat treating and the manufacturing

·7· · · · process, no.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So what you're saying is that no one

·9· · · · indicated there was an issue with heat treating

10· · · · or manufacturing, but were you made aware that

11· · · · there may be issues with the barrels being soft?

12· ·A.· ·Not soft.· They were having issues with problems

13· · · · with the barrels, you know, as far as I think he

14· · · · mentioned something with the radial lugs.· They

15· · · · were deforming at a 45-degree angle is what he

16· · · · said on that first phone call and he didn't know

17· · · · what was going on with it and I told him it was

18· · · · probably the timing.· You're having a crash

19· · · · happen, which is common with the barrel that is

20· · · · not timed correctly.

21· ·Q.· ·But you would agree with me that prior to the

22· · · · Facebook post in October of 2019 by Akai, you

23· · · · did have discussions with Mr. Horowitz about

24· · · · problems that he was seeing with KKM barrels,

25· · · · correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·A problem with a gun, not multiple barrels, but

·2· · · · one gun.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did he also provide you some test results

·4· · · · that he received from a lab called

·5· · · · QC Metallurgical?

·6· ·A.· ·He e-mailed a bill from QC Metallurgical with an

·7· · · · attachment that had results on it.

·8· ·Q.· ·So he did send you some documentation from QC?

·9· ·A.· ·The bill is what we originally saw.· We did not

10· · · · open that attachment.

11· ·Q.· ·Why didn't you open the attachment?

12· ·A.· ·We don't open attachments because from somebody

13· · · · we don't know, it came from QC and, yeah, we

14· · · · didn't know them.· It was a bill, so I looked at

15· · · · it and basically threw it on the desk.

16· ·Q.· ·So going back to Exhibit No. 5, page labeled

17· · · · KKM-9 there is an e-mail to I believe Mr. Vlieger

18· · · · indicating that he printed and handed to owner.

19· · · · You're indicating here that all that was printed

20· · · · was just the bill?

21· ·A.· ·Yes, that's what popped up on the e-mail, that

22· · · · bill for 200 bucks from QC Metallurgical.

23· ·Q.· ·And you're saying there were no test results

24· · · · attached to that?

25· ·A.· ·There was the attachment, but it wasn't opened.

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·1· · · · Our e-mail system will not automatically open

·2· · · · attachments.· We have to physically do that.

·3· ·Q.· ·Wasn't the bill itself an attachment?

·4· ·A.· ·It showed up as just a page, so it wasn't the

·5· · · · same type of attachment like the attachment that

·6· · · · he put on there, so when he printed the e-mail,

·7· · · · it just showed that initial bill and that was it.

·8· ·Q.· ·Have you since looked at the attachment or you

·9· · · · haven't opened it?

10· ·A.· ·Oh, yes.· No, I've looked at it.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· My understanding is that you've asserted

12· · · · that you've talked to someone at QC, is that

13· · · · correct?

14· ·A.· ·I talked to someone at QC.· There's an office

15· · · · outside of Florida.· It wasn't Michigan.· Maybe

16· · · · Ohio or so, QC Metallurgical Laboratories and

17· · · · went in great depth on Rockwell testing and how

18· · · · they test.

19· ·Q.· ·You don't remember who you spoke with?

20· ·A.· ·No.· It was a few years ago, so I don't remember

21· · · · the guy's name.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· My understanding is that you've asserted

23· · · · that QC Metallurgical had admitted that they were

24· · · · testing the barrels improperly, is that correct?

25· ·A.· ·When I talked to the gentleman on the phone, he

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·1· · · · said we discussed testing a tube.· That's what a

·2· · · · barrel is is a tube and he said that violates

·3· · · · the ASTM standards for Rockwell testing.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what was the name of that person you talked to?

·5· ·A.· ·Couple years ago, so I don't remember.

·6· ·Q.· ·But his response was that testing a tube

·7· · · · violates the ASTM standard?

·8· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·9· ·Q.· ·Did he explain how it violated the ASTM standard?

10· ·A.· ·Because you have to test -- if you look up the

11· · · · ASTM standards for Rockwell testing, you can

12· · · · read that you can't test a void like that.· You

13· · · · have to test solid material from the certified

14· · · · anvil on the top, the indenter to the bottom

15· · · · anvil that you use.· You can't have anything in

16· · · · between it.· It has to be solid material all the

17· · · · way through and that's what ASTM actually

18· · · · describes in their Rockwell testing procedures.

19· ·Q.· ·And did the person at QC indicate that they

20· · · · tested any other area of the barrel?

21· ·A.· ·We were just describing how to test a barrel.

22· · · · He didn't describe their tests or anything. I

23· · · · don't think he had knowledge of it, but I

24· · · · described how we manufacture a barrel and he

25· · · · described where to actually test on it.· Is

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·1· · · · there a solid spot?· I said, yes, it's down on

·2· · · · the lower lug is what we call it.· He said

·3· · · · that's the only correct place to do a test.

·4· ·Q.· ·And do you know if QC tested that area?

·5· ·A.· ·I don't know.· I've never seen anything other

·6· · · · than their initial results.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But looking at those results, you don't

·8· · · · know exactly where the areas that they tested to

·9· · · · get those results were, correct?

10· ·A.· ·No, they didn't give a certification which would

11· · · · give the position of where they tested.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the information that you shared with

13· · · · people that the QC people didn't test it

14· · · · correctly was based on this conversation that

15· · · · the QC person, whose name we don't know, said

16· · · · that testing the tube violates an ASTM standard?

17· ·A.· ·Yes, and my, all the pictures that Shay was

18· · · · actually posting on social media showed me that,

19· · · · hey, they are testing it incorrectly.· They are

20· · · · testing on the tube or unsupported portion of it.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· My understanding is that at some point in

22· · · · time though Mr. Carter, Nathan Carter had

23· · · · forwarded a picture to Mr. Vlieger who made its

24· · · · way to you showing a test that he did on not the

25· · · · round area, is that correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes, he tested on the lower lug and he did a

·2· · · · series of tests.· There was four or five in a

·3· · · · row.· He got closer to what's called the link

·4· · · · pinhole and he was close to the correct

·5· · · · position, but there's a void in between that

·6· · · · where the link-pin actually goes, so his results

·7· · · · kept getting lower and lower and lower as he got

·8· · · · closer to the hole and same thing, he's testing

·9· · · · a spot that's not supported in there.

10· ·Q.· ·So what you're saying is that there's only one

11· · · · spot to test?

12· ·A.· ·Yes, the area is very specific and we have that

13· · · · in a file that we share to customers that want

14· · · · to do their own testing, it shows the exact

15· · · · position of it, and I also showed Nathan Carter

16· · · · in our text messages that exact position and the

17· · · · pictures that I sent to him.

18· ·Q.· ·My understanding is that Mr. Carter then

19· · · · utilized your test procedure, but then got the

20· · · · same result or lower result, isn't that true?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

22· ·A.· ·As he started testing in that voided area in the

23· · · · link-pin, yeah, his results kept getting lower

24· · · · and lower.· For some reason he would not test

25· · · · the exact position that I showed him and I

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·1· · · · couldn't tell you why.

·2· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Wait.· You're saying he

·3· · · · did not test in the exact position you gave him?

·4· ·A.· ·According to the pictures that I saw, no.

·5· ·Q.· ·You're saying he didn't?

·6· ·A.· ·It was close.· It was about a quarter inch off.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Regarding the statement that prior to the

·8· · · · Facebook post in October of 2019, you mentioned

·9· · · · that you were given this printout from Dan

10· · · · Wrightsman.· What did you receive from Mr. Vlieger?

11· ·A.· ·After Nationals, John sent some pictures and he

12· · · · sent as much as he could find from social media,

13· · · · so there were all kinds of pictures of Shay

14· · · · testing barrels and parts that he had turned

15· · · · down and parts that were out on the end of the

16· · · · barrel.· There was all kinds of pictures that he

17· · · · was posting out there.

18· ·Q.· ·Would this have been before the Facebook post in

19· · · · 2019, October 2019?

20· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you before or after.· It was

21· · · · right around the same period.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall when Mr. Vlieger sent you

23· · · · the pictures showing Mr. Horowitz's test results?

24· ·A.· ·Sometime in 2019.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So this would have been before this

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·1· · · · January 9, 2020 letter, correct?

·2· ·A.· ·Probably, yes.

·3· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 7.)

·4· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· This is Exhibit

·5· · · · No. 7.· For identification this is documents we

·6· · · · received from Defendant Shooters Connection.

·7· · · · It's Bates labeled SCI-1826 through 1835 and it

·8· · · · contains on page or the page that's labeled

·9· · · · SCI-1834 what appears to be the text communication

10· · · · between yourself and Mr. Nathan Carter, correct?

11· ·A.· ·That's correct.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And I think you already agreed with me

13· · · · earlier it appears that this communication was

14· · · · in December, on or about December `19, actually,

15· · · · exactly on December 17, 2019, correct?

16· ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And forgive me if I asked you earlier,

18· · · · but what did Mr. Carter tell you anything about

19· · · · his gun, if anything?

20· ·A.· ·He didn't tell me anything about the gun.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Vlieger tell you anything about

22· · · · Mr. Carter's gun?

23· ·A.· ·No.

24· ·Q.· ·And so again, in this text communication you say

25· · · · that you identify that there are two different

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·1· · · · types of steel, is that correct?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the BQ5 steel here you're referring

·4· · · · to again cannot possibly be the BQ5 that you're

·5· · · · indicating or asserting that you didn't get

·6· · · · until 2020, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·And this is the BQ5 that was the military test

·9· · · · barrels, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that it was possible

12· · · · for someone to have gotten this off of eBay, is

13· · · · that correct?

14· ·A.· ·They could have got it from anywhere.· I have no

15· · · · control what happened to those barrels after

16· · · · they left Michigan.

17· ·Q.· ·But KKM didn't sell this BQ5, correct?

18· ·A.· ·No.

19· ·Q.· ·And none of your vendors would have sold it,

20· · · · correct, because you didn't supply it to somebody

21· · · · like Shooters Connection or Speed Shooters,

22· · · · correct?

23· ·A.· ·They could not have gotten any of it.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Why was it necessary to explain that

25· · · · there was a possibility of BQ5 in 2019 if the

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·1· · · · only way they could have gotten it was some

·2· · · · back-door channel through the military?

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·4· ·A.· ·It was solely because of his name.· It jogged my

·5· · · · memory, so I wanted to be thorough.

·6· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So just because you

·7· · · · believe that Mr. Carter was in the military, you

·8· · · · thought maybe it would have been a BQ5 barrel?

·9· ·A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) But again, as you've

12· · · · already indicated earlier in the January 9, 2020

13· · · · letter when you were telling the public that all

14· · · · the barrels are made from a BQ5 steel, you agree

15· · · · with me that KKM had not made a BQ5 steel

16· · · · available to the public yet at that time, correct?

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

18· · · · misstates the contents of the letter.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Go ahead and answer.

21· ·A.· ·I think that's too generalized.· I was describing

22· · · · the type of 416 that we used, not a specific brand.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you admitted earlier or testified

24· · · · earlier that the BQ5 was not a name or type of

25· · · · steel associated with Outokumpu, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes, what we were using was a type 416

·2· · · · restricted and a lot of times in the industry

·3· · · · it's referred to as barrel quality.

·4· ·Q.· ·But you indicated that in 2019 the only steel

·5· · · · you were using was the Outokumpu, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·At that time, yes, for consumer use, yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how is BQ5 in any way associated with

·8· · · · the Outokumpu steel that you were using?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

11· ·A.· ·It's not related.· They're two different brands.

12· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Right, but in 2020 you

13· · · · hadn't yet purchased the Carpenter BQ5, so why

14· · · · are you referring to it in 2020?

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

16· · · · misstates the testimony.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

18· ·A.· ·It was supposed to show up much, much earlier,

19· · · · but I don't refer to it as the brand.· That letter

20· · · · is basically to inform people that, hey, we use

21· · · · a type 416 and here very soon the Carpenter is

22· · · · all we're going to have and, yeah, it's just

23· · · · your definition is just slightly different than

24· · · · mine.· It's not what I'm trying to convey across.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Dropping down to

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·1· · · · Exhibit 7, the page labeled SCI-1835, there is a

·2· · · · document here from Samuel, Son & Company where

·3· · · · it looks like they provided a quotation to KKM

·4· · · · for the BQ5, correct?

·5· ·A.· ·That is correct.

·6· ·Q.· ·But this date where it's quoted is February 20

·7· · · · of 2020, is that correct?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes, when that document was created.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You're saying that KKM had ordered the

10· · · · BQ5 prior to your January 2020 letter?

11· ·A.· ·No.· We got a quote on a price.· We didn't order

12· · · · it.· We didn't receive any.· It was just a quote

13· · · · for how much does this stuff cost.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So, again, when you refer to that the

15· · · · barrels are all made from 416R BQ5, you hadn't

16· · · · even received a quote for BQ5 yet, correct?

17· ·A.· ·We had been in talks for many years on the BQ5.

18· · · · That was just a current quote.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you would agree with me that that quote

20· · · · was obtained after this January 9, 2020 letter?

21· ·A.· ·That particular quote?

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah, when you say that

23· · · · quote, are you referring to the document you

24· · · · just showed him?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Yes.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.

·2· ·A.· ·That specific quote, yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And this quotation,

·4· · · · which is quote number 8091461, did you ultimately

·5· · · · then place an order with Samuel, Son & Company

·6· · · · for this BQ5 steel?

·7· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you if it was that quote or not.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When did KKM actually place the order for

·9· · · · BQ5 steel to be used to make barrels for sale to

10· · · · the public?

11· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· It was in 2020.

12· ·Q.· ·And how was that order placed?· Was it by phone,

13· · · · by e-mail, by purchase order?

14· ·A.· ·By phone, just like all the other ones that

15· · · · we've done for many years.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So if I understand your text messages

17· · · · with Mr. Carter, specifically SCI Bates labeled

18· · · · 1834, if I'm understanding this correctly, that

19· · · · the BQ5 steel barrel that's referred to here

20· · · · would have a lower Rockwell hardness than the

21· · · · Outokumpu steel, is that correct?

22· ·A.· ·No, the ones we produced for the army were

23· · · · specifically set at 40 Rockwell.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in this text here though you're

25· · · · indicating that if, in fact, he got one of those

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·1· · · · military, what you say is a military BQ5, it

·2· · · · would be lower, correct?

·3· ·A.· ·It would be, yeah.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But at this particular time in 2019 you

·5· · · · were advertising to your customers on your

·6· · · · website that all your barrels were 42, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·Forty-two is the mean value and that's to

·8· · · · consumer use, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Let's talk about conversations that you had

10· · · · directly with Mr. Horowitz regarding some issues

11· · · · or problems that he was seeing.· Do you remember

12· · · · having conversations with Mr. Horowitz?

13· ·A.· ·Yes, there were three phone calls.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Isn't it true you made a statement to

15· · · · Mr. Horowitz that if he sent a barrel back to

16· · · · you, that you would show him what he was doing

17· · · · wrong?

18· ·A.· ·That was the second phone call, and based off

19· · · · the pictures that I had seen from everyone

20· · · · sending them to me, yes, I wanted to educate

21· · · · Shay on the proper Rockwell procedures that

22· · · · barrel manufacturers use.

23· ·Q.· ·And then isn't it true that there was another

24· · · · phone call where you indicated to Mr. Horowitz

25· · · · that even if he sent a barrel back, that he was

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·1· · · · out of luck because you had already talked or

·2· · · · consulted with an attorney, who told you there

·3· · · · was no standard way to test the barrel?

·4· ·A.· ·I don't believe I said that directly to him, no.

·5· ·Q.· ·When you said you don't believe you said that

·6· · · · directly to him, did you say it directly to

·7· · · · anybody?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Whoa, whoa, before you

·9· · · · answer that, to the extent that this question

10· · · · requires you to discuss private conversations

11· · · · that you've had with an attorney that you did

12· · · · not share with an outside party, someone outside

13· · · · of KKM, I don't want you to answer the question.

14· · · · However, if Mr. Yee's question relates to

15· · · · conversations that you had with third parties

16· · · · outside of KKM, then I do instruct you to answer

17· · · · the question.· Do you understand that distinction?

18· ·A.· ·I do.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· Ed, can you

20· · · · re-ask that question please?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Sure.

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Thanks.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) My question was isn't

24· · · · it true you told Mr. Horowitz that he was out of

25· · · · luck because you had talked to an attorney or

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·1· · · · consulted an attorney and the attorney indicated

·2· · · · to you that there was no standard way to test a

·3· · · · barrel anyways, and your answer was I don't

·4· · · · recall saying that directly to Mr. Horowitz, and

·5· · · · my follow-up question was did you make that

·6· · · · statement to anybody?

·7· ·A.· ·It would have been a lawyer and I don't believe

·8· · · · I said that directly.

·9· ·Q.· ·Isn't it true you made a statement to Mr. Horowitz

10· · · · that you're not in the business of giving

11· · · · barrels away for free?

12· ·A.· ·That was the third and final phone call and I

13· · · · kept begging for him to send barrels back so

14· · · · that we can either do the warranty on them,

15· · · · replace them, refund them, whatever he wanted to

16· · · · do, and I couldn't accept -- he wouldn't send

17· · · · anything back, but yet wanted a bunch of new

18· · · · product, so, yeah, there's no way I could just

19· · · · without any actual physical proof in my hand give

20· · · · him a bunch of barrels that were worth a bunch

21· · · · of money.· I don't think anybody would do that.

22· ·Q.· ·Was it communicated to you though that Mr. Horowitz

23· · · · had offered to do independent testing of the

24· · · · barrels?

25· ·A.· ·He mentioned a QC, this would have been on the

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·1· · · · third phone call, QC's lab reports and I told

·2· · · · him after looking at it that the barrel steel is

·3· · · · incapable of getting up to 49 Rockwell.· To me

·4· · · · it looked like he was testing a certain type of

·5· · · · coating that was on it.· Yeah, barrel steel

·6· · · · itself isn't capable of getting that hard, so

·7· · · · something was wrong with the way they were

·8· · · · testing it, so --

·9· ·Q.· ·Let me clarify my question, Mr. McIntire.· So my

10· · · · understanding is at some point in time you were

11· · · · made aware of the QC metallurgical report, but

12· · · · you had questioned it because you indicated that

13· · · · the QC people said that it was a violation of

14· · · · the ASTM standards, so you couldn't rely on that

15· · · · report.· My question is that isn't it true

16· · · · though that Mr. Horowitz offered then, if you

17· · · · wouldn't rely on the QC report or his tests, he

18· · · · suggested, well, let's then get a third party

19· · · · involved to do testing to see what the real

20· · · · results are?· Did you make that offer?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection, form.

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Join.

23· ·A.· ·He didn't mention that to me.· I believe he

24· · · · mentioned that to John over at Shooters Connection.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Since you know that,

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·1· · · · obviously that got back to you from Mr. Vlieger,

·2· · · · correct?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·And did you communicate with Mr. Vlieger to say

·5· · · · yeah, that's a good idea.· Let's have a third

·6· · · · party person come in to look at it?

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·9· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· It was two years ago, so

10· · · · there was a lot of phone calls back and forth.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So you don't know if

12· · · · you did or didn't.· Is that what you're saying?

13· ·A.· ·Yeah, I can't recall.· It was too long ago.

14· ·Q.· ·You mentioned that as a result of the public

15· · · · service announcement by Akai and then you

16· · · · responded with the open letter that during that

17· · · · period you received a lot of phone calls?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Did you receive any complaints from other

20· · · · customers about the barrels?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Object to form.

22· ·A.· ·Not complaints, concerns.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· And what kind of

24· · · · concerns did you receive from customers?

25· ·A.· ·They wanted to know if what Shay was saying was

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·1· · · · true, you know, do people, are they believing

·2· · · · all the pictures that he was sending out.· That

·3· · · · was the concerns that we were getting.

·4· ·Q.· ·And who were these customers that were calling

·5· · · · in with the concerns?

·6· ·A.· ·It was hundreds and hundreds of people.· Our

·7· · · · phones were tied up constantly.

·8· ·Q.· ·Do you remember the names of some of them?

·9· ·A.· ·No.· It was everyone in the industry from all

10· · · · the big names that we work with from STI, which

11· · · · is now Stuccato.· I remember they had called.

12· · · · One of the owners is a good friend of mine and,

13· · · · yeah, he was concerned.· He's like, "Hey, is

14· · · · this true?"· I said, "Well, have you guys ever

15· · · · had a problem in the tens of thousands of

16· · · · barrels we've sent to you?"· He said, "No."· So,

17· · · · yeah, people were calling us up left and right.

18· ·Q.· ·My understanding is that barrels from Venom

19· · · · Custom made its way back to you for testing.· Is

20· · · · that correct?

21· ·A.· ·Yes, Don at Venom Custom sent two barrels to us.

22· · · · He was curious because he had a local heat

23· · · · treating company punch them and he wanted to

24· · · · compare the results to what we got, so he sent

25· · · · two in and I walked it down to Nevada Heat Treat

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·1· · · · and they punched them.· Everything looked fine.

·2· · · · They gave us an actual report on the two punches

·3· · · · of those barrels and we sent them back to Venom.

·4· ·Q.· ·The barrels that Venom sent in to you when you

·5· · · · had Nevada Heat Treat punch them as you say,

·6· · · · were those the exact barrels sent back to Venom

·7· · · · or did you send them back different barrels?

·8· ·A.· ·They were.· Yep, they are exactly the same.· Don

·9· · · · has told me they are exactly the same.

10· ·Q.· ·The barrels that he sent in to you, did he send

11· · · · results with them?

12· ·A.· ·No, not from his heat treating company that he

13· · · · had them punched.· There were two indentations,

14· · · · one on each barrel, indicating that someone had

15· · · · done a Rockwell test on them.

16· ·Q.· ·Do you remember what those Rockwell test numbers

17· · · · were from his local heat treating facility?

18· ·A.· ·I don't believe he told me.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember if they were below 40?

20· ·A.· ·They were not.· They were above 42.· That's all

21· · · · he told me.· He goes, yeah, they were above your

22· · · · 42 and the two that the Nevada Heat Treat did, I

23· · · · believe you guys actually have that report.

24· · · · They were like 44 or something like that.· They

25· · · · were above it.

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·1· ·Q.· ·My understanding is that Mr. Fredenhagen had

·2· · · · tested numbers below 40, but then I believe you

·3· · · · had sent test results showing that they were

·4· · · · tested fine.· Am I incorrect?

·5· ·A.· ·He had four barrels.· He sent two to Brandon

·6· · · · Bunker.· Those ones he had tested out on the end

·7· · · · of the barrels and those were I think the

·8· · · · initial tests that he had actually ran and those

·9· · · · ones were deflected and were below.

10· ·Q.· ·When you say they were tested on the end of the

11· · · · barrel, that was tested by Mr. Fredenhagen or

12· · · · Mr. Bunker?

13· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· You'd have to ask Don on

14· · · · that one.· I wasn't involved in it.

15· ·Q.· ·But what's your understanding of Mr. Bunker's

16· · · · involvement with Mr. Fredenhagen's barrels?

17· ·A.· ·He went ahead and punched those same exact

18· · · · barrels and came up with good results and that's

19· · · · all that Don told me.· He goes, yeah, they were

20· · · · perfectly fine.

21· ·Q.· ·When did Mr. Bunker, to your knowledge when did

22· · · · Mr. Bunker become involved with Mr. Fredenhagen's

23· · · · barrels?

24· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

25· ·Q.· ·But who is your understanding that did the punching

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·1· · · · at the end of the barrel?· Was that the local

·2· · · · heat treat facility or was that Mr. Bunker?

·3· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· Don made it sound like it

·4· · · · was the local heat treat company.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know where Mr. Bunker tested the

·6· · · · barrels, if anywhere?

·7· ·A.· ·I know Brandon Bunker pretty well.· He only

·8· · · · tests on the chamber end of it with a plug that

·9· · · · he has purposely made up to support the inside

10· · · · of it and then he also tests on the lower lug

11· · · · itself.· Those are the two areas that I know

12· · · · that he has tested.

13· ·Q.· ·Did you receive any barrels from Cheeley Custom?

14· ·A.· ·I did, two barrels.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what happened with those barrels?

16· ·A.· ·We took them down to Nevada Heat Treat, they

17· · · · punched them and they sent them back.· They were

18· · · · within spec.

19· ·Q.· ·The testing done by Nevada Heat Treating on the

20· · · · Venom barrels, do you have copies of those tests?

21· ·A.· ·They are in your guys' evidence, so it is in

22· · · · there.· If you want another copy of it, we can

23· · · · send you another copy.

24· ·Q.· ·What about the test results from the Nevada Heat

25· · · · Treating on the Cheeley barrels?

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·1· ·A.· ·I did not retain a copy of that.· I just remember

·2· · · · seeing the two on the screen at Nevada Heat

·3· · · · Treat what the numbers were.

·4· ·Q.· ·Do you know if those Nevada Heat Treat test

·5· · · · results on the Cheeley barrels were sent to

·6· · · · Cheeley?

·7· ·A.· ·I don't remember.· That was a couple years ago.

·8· ·Q.· ·You mentioned earlier that you handle all of the

·9· · · · customer service at KKM, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Yep.

11· ·Q.· ·Have you ever had to replace a barrel because it

12· · · · didn't meet specifications in some way?

13· ·A.· ·We have had barrels that were dimensionally out

14· · · · of spec, so like a bushing barrel when it was

15· · · · labeled as a bull barrel, things like that,

16· · · · yeah, they just got the wrong label on the

17· · · · outside sleeve.· That happens.· Out of spec as

18· · · · far as manufacturing or heat treating or

19· · · · something like that, no.

20· ·Q.· ·Have you received any complaints from the U.S.

21· · · · military about any issues with barrels?

22· ·A.· ·Never.

23· ·Q.· ·All right.· It's almost 1:00.· As in the

24· · · · previous depositions, I'm going to defer to you,

25· · · · Mr. McIntire.· Does anyone need to take a lunch

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·1· · · · break for any reason?

·2· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· I think for Luke this

·3· · · · would be a brunch break.

·4· ·A.· ·Yeah, it's 10:00 my time.

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Luke, whatever you want

·6· · · · to do in terms of a meal break.· Ed, I assume

·7· · · · you're going to go seven hours?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I don't know.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· So based on the

10· · · · assumption that we're going to take the full

11· · · · seven hours, we should take a break at some

12· · · · point, but Luke, you tell us what's the most

13· · · · convenient for you in terms of your comfort and

14· · · · what you would prefer.

15· ·A.· ·Sure, let's take, I don't know, your guys' lunch

16· · · · break, so if you need 30 minutes, I can do 30

17· · · · minutes.

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· Great.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Yeah, I forgot you're three

20· · · · hours behind us, so it's not necessarily lunch

21· · · · for you, but it's really the other people.

22· ·A.· ·Yeah, only you guys are on the East Coast, so we

23· · · · can do half an hour, sure.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· I have 12:59.

25· · · · I'm just going to call it 1:00.· Let's say 1:30?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· That sounds good.

·2· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 1:00 p.m. to 1:34 p.m.)

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Let me put up a document on

·4· · · · the screen.· Can everyone see this document?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 18.)

·7· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) This was not sent over

·8· · · · previously.· I probably should have e-mailed

·9· · · · this ahead of time during the break.· I'll make

10· · · · sure that everybody gets a copy of it, but this

11· · · · is going to be labeled as Exhibit 18, and for

12· · · · identification, these were produced during

13· · · · discovery as pictures that were taken by Mr. Carter

14· · · · of some testing.· You mentioned, Mr. McIntire,

15· · · · that you had seen some pictures from Mr. McIntire

16· · · · -- or from Mr. Carter, is that correct?

17· ·A.· ·Yep, and those are ones that I have seen before,

18· · · · yes.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I want to make sure that you had seen

20· · · · these before, correct?

21· ·A.· ·Yep.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You testified earlier that it appeared to

23· · · · you that Mr. Carter was not testing on the

24· · · · proper spot on the barrel, is that correct?

25· ·A.· ·That's correct.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And looking at the lower left-hand quadrant of

·2· · · · the four pictures here, I'm looking at what

·3· · · · appears to be dimples from testing.· Is that

·4· · · · what these are?

·5· ·A.· ·Yep, that's what I described earlier.· He was

·6· · · · testing in a row as he got closer to the link-pin

·7· · · · which is that round pin that's in that hole kind

·8· · · · of as you keep going to the lower left there.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in terms of the dimple that's to the

10· · · · far right, is this a proper spot to test at?

11· ·A.· ·It's close, but it's still not in the correct

12· · · · spot.· It needs to go over a minimum of an

13· · · · eighth of an inch.· It's too close to the

14· · · · cut-out for the link.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say over an eighth of an

16· · · · inch, we're talking an eighth of an inch to the

17· · · · right of that dimple?

18· ·A.· ·To the right, yes, to the right, about where

19· · · · your cursor is, so a little bit further to the

20· · · · right and that's the spot.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And if assuming that a test dimple was

22· · · · taken at the spot that my cursor is pointing at,

23· · · · from your experience in Rockwell testing, what

24· · · · difference in readings would the two spots show,

25· · · · meaning where my cursor is and the one dimple

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·1· ·that is the furthest one to the right currently?

·2· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·3· · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Object to the form and

·4· ·can we also get a screen shot of where the

·5· ·cursor is for the record?

·6· · · · · · MR. YEE:· How do I do that?· Anybody know?

·7· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· I think Nick is the

·8· ·youngest and likely the most tech savvy on our

·9· ·Zoom right now.· Nick, can you screen shot that?

10· · · · · · MR. MARI:· Which Nick?

11· · · · · · MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah.

12· · · · · · MR. MARI:· I think if you're on

13· ·Windows, Windows F8, just so you know.· Do you

14· ·have a Windows key?

15· · · · · · MR. YEE:· Yes.

16· · · · · · MR. MARI:· Hold that and hit F8.

17· · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· Can we put on the record

18· ·that it's flush with I guess the end of the

19· ·barrel?

20· · · · · · MR. YEE:· Well, it's not there, so,

21· ·here, I can take a picture of it.

22· · · · · · MR. MARI:· What about a control screen

23· ·print?· Anybody know if will that work?

24· · · · · · MR. CARDAMONE:· Oh, yeah, that works.

25· · · · · · MR. BENFORD:· We can just take a video

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·1· · · · or whatever, cell phone shot of it.

·2· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.

·3· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So my question,

·4· · · · Mr. McIntire, is that when you indicate that the

·5· · · · proper test spot is about an eighth of an inch

·6· · · · to the right of that dimple that's furthest to

·7· · · · the right, how much of a difference would one

·8· · · · see between the two spots?

·9· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· I'm not familiar with his

10· · · · machine.· I know that on my machine if you test

11· · · · a spot that is not supported, it can be ten plus

12· · · · points.

13· ·Q.· ·So in that eighth of an inch spot, you're saying

14· · · · that your machine could be, it could vary by ten

15· · · · points?

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

17· ·A.· ·It very well could be.

18· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And what you're saying

19· · · · is that the further you go towards the link-pin,

20· · · · which is this right here, correct?

21· ·A.· ·Yep, that's correct.

22· ·Q.· ·The number should reduce?

23· ·A.· ·Well, it's completely unsupported.· There's a

24· · · · cut-out in there, so you're testing a void in

25· · · · that, so as you get closer to that, that whole

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·1· · · · section is going to deflect really badly.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So that's why what you're saying is that

·3· · · · you want to test as further away from that link

·4· · · · pin-hole as possible?

·5· ·A.· ·Yes, you have to test through a solid piece of

·6· · · · material.· You can't have any cut-outs or voids

·7· · · · or anything like that.· It has to be solid all

·8· · · · the way through.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The dimple that is the furthest right, is

10· · · · that considered a solid area though?

11· ·A.· ·It's hard to tell from the picture.· It's pretty

12· · · · close, but without seeing it in my hand, I couldn't

13· · · · tell you how close that is to that cut-out.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But looking at the dimple, you see this

15· · · · little groove here?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Looking at that, does that give you an

18· · · · indication of whether that far right dimple is a

19· · · · solid area or not?

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

22· ·A.· ·Without having it in my hand, it's hard to tell.

23· · · · It's pretty close.

24· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Let me go back

25· · · · to Exhibit 7 that we had talked about earlier.

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·1· · · · I am now specifically on the page that is

·2· · · · labeled SCI-1830.

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·This appears to be an e-mail from you to

·5· · · · Mr. Bradley dated October 11, 2021 at 1:52 p.m.

·6· · · · Do you remember writing this e-mail?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In the second sentence here you say, "I

·9· · · · purposely mentioned the BQ5 steel when

10· · · · cryogenically treated will be 40 RC or greater."

11· · · · What are you referring to here?

12· ·A.· ·Nathan Carter's text message.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you're explaining to Chuck that you

14· · · · purposely mentioned to Nathan Carter that you

15· · · · purposely mentioned BQ5 steel?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you go on to explain that, "It is a

18· · · · special order type of 1911 barrel meant for the

19· · · · CMP matches and everyone that has ordered it

20· · · · knows full well exactly what they are buying,"

21· · · · is that correct?

22· ·A.· ·That is correct.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But, again, you indicated earlier though

24· · · · that outside of the assumption that Mr. Carter

25· · · · with the military, no one was able to buy this

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·1· · · · barrel directly from any vendor like Shooters

·2· · · · Connection or Speed Shooters, correct?

·3· ·A.· ·That is correct.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then near the bottom of the paragraph

·5· · · · you say, "What they don't know is that our first

·6· · · · shipment of BQ5 steel didn't arrive to us tell,"

·7· · · · I assume that should have said til or "until the

·8· · · · middle of 2020," is that correct?

·9· ·A.· ·Yeah, that's correct.

10· ·Q.· ·You go on to say that, "I had a hunch that he

11· · · · had someone buy the BQ5 steel barrels last year

12· · · · and that is what he is using as his proof, not

13· · · · knowing the true details."· What did you mean by

14· · · · that statement there?

15· ·A.· ·Well, we had, since that BQ5 showed up in late

16· · · · 2020, we had produced quite a few barrels for a

17· · · · company called Accuracy X, along with a few at

18· · · · the army marksmanship unit and, yeah, I had a

19· · · · hunch that those barrels, maybe Shay got ahold

20· · · · of one.· That was my assumption and, yeah, who

21· · · · knows if he did?· I don't know.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But if Shay had gotten ahold of one of

23· · · · those barrels, how is that proof supporting his

24· · · · claim against KKM?

25· ·A.· ·Because they were --

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

·2· ·A.· ·They were specifically meant after cryogenically

·3· · · · treating to be at 40 RC.· Some of his testing

·4· · · · was right at about 39 to 40, so it's either that

·5· · · · or the barrels are 20 years old and they were

·6· · · · the Project 70 stuff, which is meant to be right

·7· · · · at 40.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You mentioned to Nathan

·9· · · · cryogenic treating.· Why is the cryogenic

10· · · · treating mentioned at all?

11· ·A.· ·Because the military requests it.· It's a

12· · · · treatment to the steel so that when you shoot a

13· · · · barrel and the barrel heats up from successive

14· · · · shots, it doesn't affect the accuracy as much,

15· · · · so from shot one to shot ten the group will be

16· · · · basically identical.· If you don't cryo treat a

17· · · · barrel, first shot being a cold bore can be all

18· · · · over the place.· It will be a wild shot.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· My understanding is that there is a belief

20· · · · that Mr. Horowitz at Akai is cryogenically

21· · · · treating barrels.· Is that your understanding?

22· ·A.· ·I've never heard of that.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is this something that's been I guess

24· · · · sent around on some of the social media

25· · · · documents that we received through discovery?

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·1· · · · You're not aware of that theory?

·2· ·A.· ·No, I have not seen that.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is there any issues of cryogenic freezing

·4· · · · a barrel other than reducing the Rockwell hardness?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·6· ·A.· ·It improves the performance of the barrel.

·7· · · · Other than dropping it a few points, that's it.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So you don't have any

·9· · · · recommendation against anyone cryogenically

10· · · · freezing a barrel.· Is that what you're saying?

11· ·A.· ·No, and it's been done for 30 years on many

12· · · · different types of barrels.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with a gentleman named

14· · · · Timothy Mekosh?

15· ·A.· ·I have talked to Tim, yes.

16· ·Q.· ·And what is your relationship with Mr. Mekosh?

17· ·A.· ·He is part of this lawsuit, or was.· That's my

18· · · · only relationship is, yeah, he was named in this

19· · · · lawsuit.

20· ·Q.· ·And what did you discuss with Mr. Mekosh?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.· Let

22· · · · me -- I want to make sure that the question is

23· · · · limited to discussions that Mr. McIntire and

24· · · · Mr. Mekosh had outside the scope of the lawsuit

25· · · · and not discussions that Mr. McIntire or

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·1· · · · Mr. Mekosh may have had with counsel when they

·2· · · · had jointly engaged counsel, so what I'm saying,

·3· · · · Lucas, is don't testify as to conversations that

·4· · · · you, Mr. Mekosh and I had, but you may testify

·5· · · · as to conversations you had with Mr. Mekosh

·6· · · · outside the scope of my representation of the

·7· · · · two of you.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Just to clarify, Kevin,

·9· · · · I was going to mention that to Mr. McIntire. I

10· · · · don't want to know what discussions you had with

11· · · · Mr. Mekosh in the presence of Mr. Robinson or

12· · · · any other attorney, but outside the presence of

13· · · · any counsel, what did you discuss with Mr. Mekosh?

14· ·A.· ·Outside of the scope of this lawsuit, I did not

15· · · · know the guy.· I've never talked to him before

16· · · · this and, yeah, I don't believe we've ever

17· · · · talked outside of this lawsuit.

18· ·Q.· ·What did you discuss with Mr. Mekosh inside the

19· · · · scope of the lawsuit outside the presence of

20· · · · counsel?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· You can answer that.

22· ·A.· ·I talked to him once on the phone.· We talked

23· · · · about some of the particulars of the lawsuit

24· · · · when it was filed.· That's about it.

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Did you have any

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·1· · · · communications or discussions with Mr. Mekosh

·2· · · · about the social media postings?

·3· ·A.· ·That was over two years ago.· I couldn't tell you.

·4· ·Q.· ·So you may have discussions with Mr. Mekosh

·5· · · · about some of the internet postings?

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· What's the time period

·7· · · · on this?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· At any time.· I would say

·9· · · · 2019 to present.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Okay.· And so if we can

11· · · · just distinguish for purposes of your answer

12· · · · because I think it's relevant to the claims that

13· · · · have been made, please distinguish conversations

14· · · · you had with Mr. Mekosh regarding social media

15· · · · posts that when those conversations occurred

16· · · · after the lawsuit had been filed as opposed to

17· · · · any conversations you may have had with

18· · · · Mr. Mekosh prior to the lawsuit being filed,

19· · · · make that distinction so the record is clear.

20· ·A.· ·Before the lawsuit, never discussed it.· It was

21· · · · only after.

22· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· And what did you

23· · · · discuss with Mr. Mekosh after the lawsuit was

24· · · · filed regarding or relating to the social media

25· · · · postings?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· You can answer that

·2· · · · outside the scope of conversations with counsel.

·3· ·A.· ·It was just what was in that, in the lawsuit,

·4· · · · the complaints that were in it.· That was it.

·5· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Did you ever ask

·6· · · · Mr. Mekosh to post anything about Mr. Horowitz

·7· · · · or Akai?

·8· ·A.· ·No.

·9· ·Q.· ·And do you know Mr. Michael Dame?

10· ·A.· ·I do.

11· ·Q.· ·And what is your relationship with Mr. Dame?

12· ·A.· ·Same as with Tim, since the lawsuit started, I

13· · · · didn't know him beforehand, didn't even know he

14· · · · existed.· Exact same answers I gave for Tim.· We

15· · · · talked and all of that was after the lawsuit was

16· · · · filed.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Just for the record, I'm

18· · · · going to give you the same instruction that I

19· · · · gave with respect to conversations you had with

20· · · · Mr. Mekosh.

21· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Right.· So what

22· · · · discussions did you have with Mr. Dame prior to

23· · · · the lawsuit that were not in the presence of any

24· · · · attorney or counsel?

25· ·A.· ·I didn't even know he existed prior to the lawsuit.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what about communications with

·2· · · · Mr. Dame after the lawsuit that was filed

·3· · · · outside the presence of counsel?

·4· ·A.· ·We discussed the lawsuit, what was in it.· That

·5· · · · was it.

·6· ·Q.· ·Did you discuss any of the online postings that

·7· · · · Mr. Dame and Mr. Mekosh were posting on the

·8· · · · internet about Mr. Horowitz or Akai Custom Guns?

·9· ·A.· ·Only what was in the lawsuit.· I didn't know of

10· · · · any of the social media stuff because I don't do

11· · · · social media.

12· ·Q.· ·Did you provide any information about

13· · · · Mr. Horowitz and his background to anyone,

14· · · · either Mr. Mekosh, Mr. Dame or Mr. Bradley?

15· ·A.· ·No, I didn't know the guy.

16· ·Q.· ·When you say you didn't know the guy, you didn't

17· · · · know who?

18· ·A.· ·I didn't know Shay that well.· I don't do social

19· · · · media, so everything that I know of comes from

20· · · · either John or someone else involved in the lawsuit,

21· · · · either it would have been Chuck or Tim since the

22· · · · lawsuit started.· I didn't really know the guy.

23· ·Q.· ·Did you look into Mr. Horowitz's background?

24· ·A.· ·I did, yeah, when the lawsuit was filed, I did a

25· · · · full background check.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Bradley that Mr. Horowitz was

·2· · · · involved in an FBI investigation?

·3· ·A.· ·That was my hunch after speaking with my

·4· · · · contacts in law enforcement, yeah, I had a very

·5· · · · good hunch of it.

·6· ·Q.· ·And who did you speak with in law enforcement?

·7· ·A.· ·It was a couple of years ago.· I speak to hundreds

·8· · · · of personnel in law enforcement.· More than half

·9· · · · of what we produce goes to law enforcement, so,

10· · · · yeah, I couldn't give you an exact name.· It was

11· · · · too long ago, but, yeah, that was my impression,

12· · · · given his history, yeah.

13· ·Q.· ·What evidence did you get from these contacts

14· · · · that there was an FBI investigation?

15· ·A.· ·It was a hunch off of discussions that we were

16· · · · finding online between his company's Best Day

17· · · · Trader and Shogun Trading and the posts that

18· · · · were floating around on social media, yeah, it

19· · · · seemed highly likely.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you have no evidence that there was an

21· · · · FBI investigation?

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

23· ·A.· ·Well, no law enforcement officer can give anyone

24· · · · information like that, I mean that's --

25· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But you just

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·1· · · · said that it was just a hunch, right?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· ·Q.· ·My question is there was no direct information

·4· · · · given to you by any law enforcement official

·5· · · · that there was an FBI investigation, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·There was no physical proof, no.

·7· ·Q.· ·Like you said, it was just a hunch, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·Just a hunch, yep, off of conversations I was

·9· · · · having with multiple people that I work with.

10· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 17.)

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.· I just put up on the

12· · · · screen a document.· Let me make a little bigger

13· · · · here.· This one is Exhibit 17.· Can everybody

14· · · · see this?

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· And it's a

17· · · · one-page document.· It's Bates labeled SCI-1735

18· · · · and Mr. Bradley indicates here to Mr. Dame that

19· · · · you told him that there was an active investigation

20· · · · with the FBI over a day trading scam.· Do you

21· · · · see that?

22· ·A.· ·Yes, that was my hunch.

23· ·Q.· ·So you told Mr. Bradley that there was an active

24· · · · investigation with the FBI based on a hunch?

25· ·A.· ·Oh, yeah, yeah.· After all the people that I've

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·1· · · · talked to, absolutely.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you have no evidence that there was a

·3· · · · "active" investigation with the FBI, do you?

·4· ·A.· ·I am not a law enforcement officer, so, yeah, I

·5· · · · can't give physical proof.· It was an absolute

·6· · · · very good hunch that there is.

·7· ·Q.· ·My question is that there was no direct information

·8· · · · given to you by anyone that there was an active

·9· · · · investigation, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Not from the bureau, no.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Would you agree with me that this

12· · · · statement here that there is an active

13· · · · investigation would be inaccurate?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

15· ·A.· ·I don't think it's inaccurate.· It's a hunch.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Why wouldn't it be

17· · · · inaccurate?· You indicated that you didn't have

18· · · · any direct information from any law enforcement

19· · · · individual or official that there was an active

20· · · · investigation.· You mentioned that it's just a

21· · · · hunch, but you're indicating that your statement

22· · · · here to Mr. Bradley that there's an accurate

23· · · · investigation is accurate?

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Object to form.

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·1· ·A.· ·It was based off of a very good hunch and that's

·2· · · · what I told Chuck.· I said, yeah, that and all

·3· · · · the different lawsuits that were involved, yeah,

·4· · · · it was to me based off of a very good hunch.

·5· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You keep saying hunch,

·6· · · · but you would agree with me that there was no

·7· · · · direct evidence of an active investigation,

·8· · · · correct?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection to form.

11· ·A.· ·There is no direct evidence that someone could

12· · · · give me, no.

13· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So this information

14· · · · being published on social media that there's an

15· · · · active investigation, wouldn't you think that

16· · · · would be harmful to an individual?

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Objection to form, loss

18· · · · of predicate.· I'm sorry.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

20· ·A.· ·I wasn't involved in posting that, so I couldn't

21· · · · tell you.

22· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You may not have posted

23· · · · it, but you provided it to Mr. Bradley and

24· · · · Mr. Bradley provided it to Mr. Dame, correct?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Object to form.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·2· ·A.· ·I have no idea.· I'm just reading this on your

·3· · · · page here, so I couldn't tell you who gave it to

·4· · · · who or what.

·5· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) But what you will agree

·6· · · · with is that you gave this information to

·7· · · · Mr. Bradley, correct?

·8· ·A.· ·We had talked about it in Shay's history.

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you would agree with me you gave it to

10· · · · Mr. Bradley?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

12· ·A.· ·Yes, Chuck and I discussed it quite a bit.

13· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So that's a yes?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

16· ·A.· ·Yes, Chuck and I discussed it quite a bit.

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Is it true that you met

18· · · · Shay in person at a USPSA Nationals match I

19· · · · believe in a town called Frostproof, Florida?

20· ·A.· ·That's correct in 2016.

21· ·Q.· ·And my understanding is that you had a table

22· · · · there showcasing your products right next to

23· · · · Mr. Horowitz's table showcasing Akai products,

24· · · · correct?

25· ·A.· ·It wasn't directly right next.· It was probably

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·1· · · · about 40, 50 feet away, but yes, we were in the

·2· · · · same area where all the vendors were.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you spent quite a bit of time talking

·4· · · · to Mr. Horowitz about what he was doing and what

·5· · · · guns he was making with Akai, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·I wouldn't say quite a bit of time.· There were

·7· · · · short periods where we talked for a minute.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Horowitz explain to you what he

·9· · · · was doing at Akai?

10· ·A.· ·He would show some of the guns he had on display

11· · · · there.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you make any recommendations to him

13· · · · about using KKM barrels?

14· ·A.· ·Not at that time.· He had already been using them.

15· ·Q.· ·It's your testimony that Mr. Horowitz had

16· · · · ordered KKM barrels prior to 2016?

17· ·A.· ·He had, there were a couple of --

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

19· ·A.· ·He had a couple of barrels actually that he had

20· · · · in guns there and he said he loved our barrels

21· · · · and, yeah, whether or not he got them from us, I

22· · · · couldn't tell you.· I thought he ordered in 2017

23· · · · from us.

24· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So I just want

25· · · · to clarify Mr. Horowitz testified yesterday that

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·1· · · · at some point in time he did work for a company

·2· · · · called Millennium?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes, mm-hmm, very familiar with Millennium.

·4· ·Q.· ·I want to clarify when you say that he was using

·5· · · · KKM barrels already by 2016, was he using these

·6· · · · barrels in Millennium guns or Akai guns, if you

·7· · · · know?

·8· ·A.· ·They were Akai guns.· They were labeled as Akai

·9· · · · guns.

10· ·Q.· ·You personally saw these?

11· ·A.· ·Yeah, he had them on display there.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you made no recommendations to him

13· · · · about KKM barrels at that time?

14· ·A.· ·Not recommendations.· He already knew about us.

15· · · · We're a big name in the industry, so he knew a

16· · · · lot about us already.

17· ·Q.· ·You indicated a minute ago that when I asked you

18· · · · if you had made recommendations to him, you said

19· · · · not at that time.· Did you ever at any point in

20· · · · time make any recommendations to him about KKM

21· · · · barrels?

22· ·A.· ·When he ordered in 2017, we discussed the history

23· · · · of the company and how we produce barrels and

24· · · · you could call that a recommendation, because we

25· · · · are discussing our product and why it's better

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·1· · · · and how we manufacture things.

·2· ·Q.· ·And when did that occur?

·3· ·A.· ·When he originally placed the orders in 2017 I

·4· · · · believe.· You have the invoices for those, so

·5· · · · you have the dates on it.

·6· ·Q.· ·Do you have any documentation showing that

·7· · · · Mr. Horowitz ordered KKM barrels prior to this

·8· · · · match in 2016?

·9· ·A.· ·I do not.

10· ·Q.· ·And why not?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

12· ·A.· ·When we looked through our accounting systems,

13· · · · there were no orders prior to those, so he got

14· · · · them from somewhere else, or who knows.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Isn't it true

16· · · · you asked Mr. Horowitz to build an Akai gun

17· · · · using a KKM barrel to showcase that gun?

18· ·A.· ·No, I never asked that.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So it's your testimony today that at this

20· · · · particular USPSA match, he already had guns

21· · · · there with KKM barrels in them?

22· ·A.· ·That's what I remember, yeah.

23· ·Q.· ·Is it true that you consulted with Shay to

24· · · · possibly develop 1911 2011 hybrid barrels?

25· ·A.· ·I never consulted with him.· That was all done

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·1· · · · through Shooters Connection.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Would that be the same with like slides

·3· · · · and other parts?

·4· ·A.· ·I've never consulted with him ever.

·5· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 8.)

·6· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) LET'S talk about Exhibit

·7· · · · -- what number is this, 14 (sic).· Let me make it a

·8· · · · little bigger.· For identification purposes, this

·9· · · · is a declaration from a Michael F. Marcanio.

10· ·A.· ·Yep.

11· ·Q.· ·You say yep pretty quickly, Mr. McIntire. I

12· · · · assume you've seen this before?

13· ·A.· ·I have.

14· ·Q.· ·So the declaration of Mr. Marcanio who is with

15· · · · Outokumpu Stainless Bar, LLC, he indicates at

16· · · · paragraph eight that the certificates of test

17· · · · that were labeled as KKM-18 to KKM-29 which were

18· · · · the discovery documents, he indicates that those

19· · · · show the sale of grade 416 steel bars from

20· · · · Outokumpu to Samuel, Son & Company.· Do you see

21· · · · that?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·Do you have any reason to dispute the assertion

24· · · · that those documents only show the sale of grade

25· · · · 416 steel bars?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·2· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·3· ·A.· ·Yeah, I can't dispute it.· That's what they say.

·4· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So you have no

·5· · · · reason to dispute that, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·No.

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form because

·8· · · · it misstates the contents of paragraph eight.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· How does it misstate the

10· · · · content?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Your question was

12· · · · paragraph eight states that Mr. Marcanio said

13· · · · that this confirms that Outokumpu only sold

14· · · · grade 416 steel, and it doesn't say that.· It

15· · · · says it confirms the sale of grade 416 steel

16· · · · bars, but it doesn't say only anywhere.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I didn't use the word only.

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· If you ask Madam Court

19· · · · Reporter to read it back, I believe you did.

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· If I did, I can

21· · · · rephrase the question.

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Please do.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) My question, Mr. McIntire,

24· · · · is the statement here that KKM-18 to KKM-29

25· · · · confirms the sale of grade 416 steel bars from

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·1· · · · Outokumpu to Samuel, Son & Company.· Do you have

·2· · · · any reason to dispute that?

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·5· ·A.· ·No.

·6· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· And then in

·7· · · · paragraph nine Mr. Marcanio indicates that the

·8· · · · same documents labeled as KKM-18 to KKM-29 does

·9· · · · not indicate the sale of 416R steel bars from

10· · · · Outokumpu to Samuel, Son & Company, nor does it

11· · · · certify the steel bars described are 416R or 416

12· · · · restricted.· Do you see that?

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

14· ·A.· ·I do see that.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Is it your testimony

16· · · · that the steel bars that you obtained from

17· · · · Outokumpu that were identified in KKM-18 to

18· · · · KKM-29 are 416R steel bars?

19· ·A.· ·They are the 416 restricted that we order

20· · · · through Samuel, Son.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And, again, these are what we had talked

22· · · · about earlier, the steel specifications you

23· · · · provided to Samuel, Son & Company, but there's

24· · · · no written documentation to that effect?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

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·1· ·A.· ·No, because it was done decades ago.

·2· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Now, do you take

·3· · · · any issue with the declaration here that says

·4· · · · that the certification tests do not describe

·5· · · · 416R or 416 restricted?

·6· ·A.· ·No, because they've never needed to do that.

·7· · · · They give us the cert sheet that has the chemical

·8· · · · composition, which is what they're certifying

·9· · · · and we compare that to our restrictions that we

10· · · · gave to Samuel, Son, and then the ones that we

11· · · · also have on record and we compare it, and if

12· · · · it's within those restrictions, it's perfectly

13· · · · acceptable.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So paragraph ten, the declaration indicates

15· · · · that steel bars that are certified as 416R or

16· · · · 416 restricted is not an ASTM international

17· · · · standard grade type.· Would you agree with that?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·And then he goes on to say that a customer may

20· · · · provide those specifications and they'll develop

21· · · · that steel and certify as such.· Do you know why

22· · · · if you're saying that you sent this order to

23· · · · Samuel, Son to be ordered to be certified as 416

24· · · · restricted, why they didn't certify it as such?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

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·1· · · · misstates his testimony.

·2· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·3· ·A.· ·We give our restrictions to their dealer.· We

·4· · · · don't deal directly with Outokumpu, and why

·5· · · · Samuel, Son doesn't give those restrictions to

·6· · · · Outokumpu, I have no idea.· Maybe they do, but

·7· · · · we deal directly with Samuel, Son and they are

·8· · · · very well-aware of our restrictions and they

·9· · · · pick and choose what steel matches those

10· · · · restrictions, so when it comes to the certs, that's

11· · · · up to Outokumpu.· It's not something we require.

12· ·Q.· ·You just stated you're not sure why Samuel, Son

13· · · · didn't give those restrictions to Outokumpu.· How

14· · · · do you know they didn't give them to Outokumpu?

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

17· ·A.· ·I don't.· I said I don't know why.· Maybe they

18· · · · did, maybe they didn't.· Who knows?· I'm not

19· · · · either of those two companies.

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But you would

21· · · · agree with me that there would be nothing for

22· · · · Samuel, Son & Company to give to Outokumpu in

23· · · · writing because you didn't give it to Samuel,

24· · · · Son in writing, right, so this would be all verbal?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·2· ·A.· ·It was done decades ago before my time, so I

·3· · · · couldn't tell you if dad gave it to Samuel, Son.

·4· · · · I have no idea.

·5· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Let's go back to

·6· · · · Exhibit No. 5.· We're looking at the page that's

·7· · · · labeled KKM-29.· This is a certificate of test

·8· · · · from Outokumpu to Samuel, Son & Company.· Do you

·9· · · · see that?

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·Which shows testing of a grade 416 and it's

12· · · · dated April 27, 2020.· Do you see that?

13· ·A.· ·Yep.

14· ·Q.· ·So you would agree with me that this is not an

15· · · · order from Outokumpu from decades ago, is it?

16· ·A.· ·No, this is what shows up with the steel when

17· · · · it's delivered.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When would this steel order have been

19· · · · made, do you know?

20· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

21· ·Q.· ·Would it have been made decades prior to

22· · · · April 27, 2020?

23· ·A.· ·When you order steel, it can take anywhere from

24· · · · ten to 20 months by the time you order it to

25· · · · when it actually shows up.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But let's say on the high side, 20 months

·2· · · · wouldn't be a decade, would it?

·3· ·A.· ·No.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, this order here by looking at the

·5· · · · certificate of test, which again is dated

·6· · · · April 27, 2020, by looking at this, does it

·7· · · · refresh your recollection as to when this order

·8· · · · was made?

·9· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you when Outokumpu made it.

10· · · · That's just when the certification was done.

11· ·Q.· ·No, I'm sorry.· My question is when would you

12· · · · have asked or made the order to Samuel, Son &

13· · · · Company for this order?

14· ·A.· ·It would have been within that, you know,

15· · · · 20-month period or so.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm looking at an entry down here that

17· · · · says your order and date and it says 4/7/20.· Do

18· · · · you know what that refers to?

19· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's go back to Exhibit 14.· So paragraph

21· · · · 11 Mr. Marcanio indicates that, "Outokumpu

22· · · · manufactures and certifies steel bars to the

23· · · · requirements and specifications to purchase orders.

24· · · · Had the purchase orders corresponding to the steel

25· · · · bars described in KKM-18 to KKM-29 supplied a

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·1· · · · different specification and certification

·2· · · · requirement than 416, such as 416R or 416

·3· · · · restricted, Outokumpu would have manufactured

·4· · · · the bars to those specifications and would have

·5· · · · certified that fact."· Do you see that?

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So as you stated earlier, you don't know

·8· · · · what specifications Samuel, Son provided to

·9· · · · Outokumpu, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Yeah, I'm not Samuel, Son.· I just relay info to

11· · · · Samuel, Son and then they place the order.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But when you received the certificate of

13· · · · test from Outokumpu and you had certain

14· · · · requirements for your restricted steel, did it

15· · · · matter to you that these were only certified as

16· · · · 416?

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

19· ·A.· ·Not on their piece of paper, no, because we have

20· · · · the equipment to test every single bar and we do

21· · · · for chemical composition because we have

22· · · · received in the past bars that were not 416.

23· · · · They were aluminum or something.· They get mixed

24· · · · up in shipping, so we have to test every single

25· · · · one and certify it ourselves that it is what we

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·1· · · · say it is.

·2· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Is it your testimony

·3· · · · that the KKM 416 restricted steel is different

·4· · · · from the ASTM recognized 416?

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·7· ·A.· ·Our restrictions are tighter than the ASTM 416

·8· · · · standards, so the chemical composition is held

·9· · · · tighter tolerances to it, and then the way it's

10· · · · manufactured, so our restrictions are not just

11· · · · chemical composition.· It's how it's manufactured,

12· · · · which is extremely important for barrel steel,

13· · · · so our restrictions are a little bit different,

14· · · · but there's a lot of brands of 416 that fall

15· · · · within those restrictions.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) When you say that the

17· · · · KKM 416 restricted steel specifications are

18· · · · tighter, what do you mean by tighter?· What

19· · · · would be different from the standard ASTM 416?

20· ·A.· ·Some of the chemical compositions of it have

21· · · · greater tolerances, so like our minimum sulphur

22· · · · is .15 and our maximum is just below .4 percent.

23· · · · There are grades of 416 that are over that and

24· · · · also under, so the R restrictions are held to a

25· · · · tighter tolerance.

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·1· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry.· What was the minimum?

·2· ·A.· ·Minimum .15 percent.

·3· ·Q.· ·And the maximum is?

·4· ·A.· ·Just under .4 percent, so that percentage range

·5· · · · is very, very small.

·6· ·Q.· ·And you're saying that this range is tighter

·7· · · · than the standard ASTM recognized 416?

·8· ·A.· ·I've seen grades of 416 that are ASTM that are

·9· · · · .4 and above and I've seen some that are .09 on

10· · · · the low end, so, yeah, the ASTM standards are,

11· · · · they give kind of like a range, but they'll give

12· · · · you a percentage of it can be so much over and

13· · · · above and, yeah, we are definitely held tighter

14· · · · than the ASTM standard.

15· ·Q.· ·The last part of paragraph ten in Mr. Marcanio's

16· · · · declaration, he indicates in the last sentence

17· · · · that, "KKM-18 to KKM-29 show that Outokumpu

18· · · · shipped steel bars meeting the ASTM 416

19· · · · standard."· Do you see that?

20· ·A.· ·Yes.

21· ·Q.· ·So it sounds like you didn't get anything

22· · · · different from 416 to ASTM 416, correct?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, misstates the

24· · · · testimony and the declaration.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

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·1· ·A.· ·The certs that they provided are within our

·2· · · · restrictions.· If they were outside of the

·3· · · · restrictions, we would send it back.

·4· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But you would

·5· · · · agree with me that what Outokumpu is saying here

·6· · · · is that they shipped ASTM 416 standard steel

·7· · · · bars to Samuel, Son, who ultimately delivered it

·8· · · · to KKM, correct?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

10· ·A.· ·That's what that statement says, and what we

11· · · · received is plenty acceptable for what we do.

12· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) I asked you questions

13· · · · earlier about the KKM website.· Is there any

14· · · · explanation on the website that talks about how

15· · · · the steel bars that KKM uses to manufacture its

16· · · · barrels from are, that they meet the ASTM 416

17· · · · standard?

18· ·A.· ·I don't believe so.

19· ·Q.· ·And why not?

20· ·A.· ·Because we don't adhere to the ASTM 416

21· · · · standard.· We adhere to our restrictions.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But Outokumpu shipped to Samuel, Son bars

23· · · · that met that standard and they certified that

24· · · · that's just 416 grade steel and you're saying

25· · · · that that meets your 416 restricted standard?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form to

·2· · · · the extent that the predicate misstates the

·3· · · · certification.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·5· ·A.· ·The steel they provided and the certs that they

·6· · · · provided are within our restrictions and, yes,

·7· · · · that is acceptable for us.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So essentially if I can

·9· · · · sum it up, the steel bars that Outokumpu sold

10· · · · meets your restricted standards?

11· ·A.· ·Yes.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I assume you've read paragraph 12 of

13· · · · Mr. Marcanio's declaration?

14· ·A.· ·Yes.

15· ·Q.· ·Do you take any issue with what he states here?

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

17· ·A.· ·Everything looks plenty good to us.

18· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· He indicates

19· · · · here that, "To the extent that it is being

20· · · · claimed that there was produced from the sale of

21· · · · grade 416 steel bars from Outokumpu to Samuel,

22· · · · Son & Company as outlined in the certificate of

23· · · · tests labeled as KKM-18 to KKM-29, such claims

24· · · · are untrue and false according to all of the

25· · · · customer specifications we received to this date

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·1· · · · that define grade 416R."· You don't take any

·2· · · · issue with that?

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

·4· ·A.· ·He doesn't have our restrictions.· I've never

·5· · · · worked with him.· He doesn't define what those

·6· · · · restrictions are, and he says all these customer

·7· · · · specifications.· Well, what are they?· So the

·8· · · · first part of that, the first few sentences,

·9· · · · yeah, I have nothing against that.· The part

10· · · · that he says it's untrue and false, well, he's

11· · · · not defining what our specific grade is, what

12· · · · the restrictions are.· He just says customer

13· · · · specifications.

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Well, what he's

15· · · · indicating there is that he looked at the

16· · · · website advertising from KKM that says that,

17· · · · "All KKM barrels are made using certified 416R

18· · · · gun barrel quality stainless steel bar stock,"

19· · · · and he's saying that to the extent that claim is

20· · · · being made by the bars that were identified

21· · · · being KKM-18 to KKM-29, he's claiming that's

22· · · · untrue and false, and my question is do you take

23· · · · issue with that claim he's making that that's an

24· · · · untrue and false statement?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form to

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·1· · · · the extent that the predicate misstates the

·2· · · · testimony of the declaration.

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·4· ·A.· ·What he's saying about our website, he's not

·5· · · · defining what we use in our restrictions.· He's

·6· · · · basing it off of other customers who have

·7· · · · different restrictions, so, yeah, how would he

·8· · · · ever know unless he knows what our restrictions

·9· · · · are?· He would have to get ahold of Samuel, Son

10· · · · or myself and actually ask.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You would agree with me

12· · · · though that a steel manufacturer like Outokumpu

13· · · · would know what the grade of steel is that they

14· · · · manufactured and sold to someone like Samuel,

15· · · · Son & Company, correct?

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

17· ·A.· ·Well, of course it's documented.· Of course

18· · · · they're going to know what they sold to one of

19· · · · their dealers.

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) What is your understanding

21· · · · of the purpose of the certificates of test?

22· ·A.· ·It's for chemical composition only.· It lets you

23· · · · know that, hey, this is free of contaminants and

24· · · · here's the chemical composition of that specific

25· · · · steel.· That's what their certification is.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so in essence it allows a steel buyer

·2· · · · to look at that and know what it is that they're

·3· · · · buying, correct?

·4· ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.

·5· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 9.)

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· Let's go to

·7· · · · Exhibit No. 9.· I need to make this one bigger.

·8· · · · Is the size of this one okay for everybody?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Exhibit No. 9 for

12· · · · identification purposes is the declaration of --

13· · · · I'll do my best not to butcher the name, but I

14· · · · believe it's Tapan Shah.· Mr. McIntire, have you

15· · · · seen this declaration before?

16· ·A.· ·I think we discussed that in one of the other

17· · · · depositions, so that was the first time I saw it.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I believe that was on Tuesday with

19· · · · Mr. Vlieger?

20· ·A.· ·Yeah.

21· ·Q.· ·And have you had an opportunity to review this?

22· ·A.· ·I've glanced over it when we were in that

23· · · · deposition.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's look at paragraph nine of Mr. Shah's

25· · · · declaration.· He indicates that, "Documents that

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·1· · · · he reviewed which were produced in our case that

·2· · · · were Bates labeled KKM-36 to KKM-38 confirms the

·3· · · · sale of Carpenter #5BQ grade 416 steel bars from

·4· · · · Carpenter to Samuel, Son & Company in Arcadia,

·5· · · · California," and he says, "BQ in the name

·6· · · · Carpenter #5BQ grade 416 indicates that this

·7· · · · grade 416 is a bright quench version."· Do you

·8· · · · see that?

·9· ·A.· ·Yep, I do.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated earlier that BQ stands for

11· · · · barrel quality, is that correct?

12· ·A.· ·In the firearms industry, it is a term put onto it.

13· ·Q.· ·And when you say in the firearms industry, is

14· · · · this referring to anyone that purchases BQ5 from

15· · · · Carpenter?

16· ·A.· ·In the firearms industry when we are discussing

17· · · · barrel quality steel, yeah, that's what everyone

18· · · · describes it as, whether it's from Carpenter or

19· · · · any slew of different steel manufacturers.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in this particular case here Mr. Shah

21· · · · is indicating that the BQ, at least in what they

22· · · · manufacture known as number five BQ, that the BQ

23· · · · does not stand for barrel quality.· Do you see

24· · · · that?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

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·1· ·A.· ·It's used in many different industries, so

·2· · · · that's their definition of it, and when it comes

·3· · · · to barrels, we describe it as barrel quality.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.· Can everyone see this

·5· · · · document?· I've got to make it bigger obviously,

·6· · · · but at least can you see it?

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· We can see it, but it's

·8· · · · miniscule.

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I have to make it bigger.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah, can you do one

11· · · · more, Ed?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I can.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yeah, perfect.

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I can do it as large as you

15· · · · guys want.· I just want to make sure it doesn't

16· · · · escape off the page.

17· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· This is plenty legible.

18· · · · Thank you.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.

20· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 10.)

21· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· So this is

22· · · · Exhibit No. 10.· This was documents produced

23· · · · previously from Mr. Vlieger and I believe this

24· · · · document was discussed during his deposition on

25· · · · Tuesday.· Let me scroll slowly here actually.

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·1· · · · This appears to be what appears to me to be cell

·2· · · · phone text communications between you and

·3· · · · Mr. Vlieger, correct?

·4· ·A.· ·It appears to be that.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And it looks like it was on Wednesday,

·6· · · · October 6, 2021, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·That's the date.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And let me scroll down here.· At 4:07 p.m.

·9· · · · Mr. Vlieger asks you, "BQ5 is 416R, correct?"

10· ·A.· ·Yes.

11· ·Q.· ·And your answer is what?

12· ·A.· ·"Yes, it's 416 restricted.· The steel mill has a

13· · · · brand name for it called BQ5, which equals

14· · · · barrel quality."

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But we just talked about the brand name

16· · · · from Carpenter, the BQ stands for bright quench,

17· · · · correct?

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

19· ·A.· ·That's what Carpenter describes it as on their

20· · · · website.· I was referring to it as it's equal to

21· · · · barrel quality steel.

22· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) But my point is that you

23· · · · don't have any reason to dispute that Carpenter

24· · · · as the manufacturer of the steel has a right to

25· · · · name the steel anything they want, right?

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·1· ·A.· ·Oh, yeah, and I can refer to it as anything I

·2· · · · want.· I'm the barrel maker.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you bought their steel and they're

·4· · · · saying that their #5BQ steel, the BQ stands for

·5· · · · bright quench, correct?

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, form.

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) And you can call it

·9· · · · barrel quality, I don't dispute that.· You can

10· · · · refer to it as barrel quality, but you would

11· · · · agree with me that Carpenter says that the BQ

12· · · · stands for bright quench, correct?

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Form.

15· ·A.· ·Yes, that's what Carpenter describes their

16· · · · abbreviation for BQ.

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) I don't know that they

18· · · · describe it.· I think that's the name they gave it.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

20· · · · argumentative.

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Form.

22· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you that.· I mean that's an

23· · · · abbreviation.

24· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Well, looking at

25· · · · this declaration, Mr. Shah indicates that that's

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·1· · · · what it stands for.· Do you have any reason to

·2· · · · say that he's wrong?

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

·5· ·A.· ·I'm not him.· I mean he has that in quotations,

·6· · · · but it just says Carpenter #5BQ and then in

·7· · · · quotations "bright quenched version," so it may

·8· · · · not be, it may be.· I'm not him, so I couldn't

·9· · · · tell you.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) I understand that

11· · · · you're not him, but he says here that BQ in the

12· · · · name #5BQ grade 416 indicates that this grade

13· · · · 416 is a bright quench version?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

15· · · · It's been asked and answered about a dozen

16· · · · times.· I'm not sure.· You're asking Mr. McIntire

17· · · · to testify as to what a nonparty not even witness,

18· · · · but on paper declarant had to say about something.

19· · · · I mean you've got Mr. McIntire's answer.

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join, and I'm also going

21· · · · to add this is a deposition, not a trial, and

22· · · · that degree of questioning on the same question

23· · · · repeatedly would even be permitted in trial, so

24· · · · go ahead.

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Well, I'm asking the question

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·1· · · · because I'm not sure Mr. McIntire answered my

·2· · · · question.· He indicated he's not Mr. Shah, which

·3· · · · I agree with, but that wasn't my question?

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Your question was asking

·5· · · · -- are you asking him to simply read a paragraph

·6· · · · from a declaration of a party?

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I'm not asking him to read a

·8· · · · paragraph, but I think I've made my point.

·9· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Let's move on to

10· · · · paragraph ten.· Mr. Shah indicates that, "KKM-36

11· · · · to KKM-38 does not indicate the sale of 416R

12· · · · steel bars from Carpenter to Samuel, Son &

13· · · · Company, Arcadia, California."· Do you see that?

14· ·A.· ·Yep.

15· ·Q.· ·Just like the discussion with the gentleman from

16· · · · Outokumpu, Mr. Shah for Carpenter says that

17· · · · Carpenter didn't sell 416R steel bars to

18· · · · Carpenter -- I'm sorry to Samuel, Son & Company.

19· · · · Do you have any dispute with this?

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to the form.

21· · · · That completely misstates paragraph 11 of the

22· · · · declaration.

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

24· ·A.· ·It says, "Does not indicate the sale of 416R."

25· · · · Well, he didn't define what 416R is or what our

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·1· · · · restrictions are, so, yeah, there's nothing

·2· · · · there to say, hey, what is our restrictions and

·3· · · · he didn't define any of that.· 416R is so many

·4· · · · different -- everyone has got their own formula

·5· · · · for it, so it's too vague to just call it 416R,

·6· · · · you know, it's what is our version of it.· What

·7· · · · is Bar-Sto's version of it or any of these other

·8· · · · companies.

·9· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But you would

10· · · · agree with me though that if you're ordering

11· · · · steel from a steel company and you wanted to

12· · · · meet your 416 specifications, wouldn't you want

13· · · · them to certify it as such?

14· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form and

15· · · · Mr. McIntire has testified many, many times now

16· · · · that he didn't order steel from the steel

17· · · · company.· He ordered it from Samuel, Son's.

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· Join.

19· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Mr. McIntire, you can

20· · · · answer.

21· ·A.· ·Sure.· We order through one of their dealers and

22· · · · they're the ones who have our restrictions and

23· · · · they're the ones who match it up and when it

24· · · · gets here, it comes with a cert sheet and we

25· · · · compare it.· We don't need them to certify it as

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·1· · · · anything but what they make and that way I can

·2· · · · go ahead and certify it for pistol barrel use.

·3· ·Q.· ·To Mr. Robinson's point, he indicated that you

·4· · · · didn't buy it from the steel manufacturer, but

·5· · · · let's look at paragraph 12 where it indicates

·6· · · · that KKM-39 confirms the sale of Carpenter

·7· · · · Project 70+ grade 416 steel bars from Carpenter

·8· · · · to KKM Precision, Inc.· Do you see that?

·9· ·A.· ·Yep.

10· ·Q.· ·So at some point in time KKM did purchase steel

11· · · · bars directly from Carpenter, correct?

12· ·A.· ·From the day we started up until, yeah, that was

13· · · · the last order that was placed directly, then it

14· · · · was all done through dealers.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated earlier that the elements

16· · · · for Carpenter Project 70+ also meets the

17· · · · specifications for KKM's 416 restricted steel?

18· ·A.· ·Yep, that was the original steel.· After that

19· · · · project in the eighties, that's what was

20· · · · developed for it.

21· ·Q.· ·And why did KKM decide to move away from

22· · · · Project 70+?

23· ·A.· ·Some of it was time frame.· It was taking too

24· · · · long to get.· Some of it was there's better

25· · · · steels being developed.· Every single year

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·1· · · · somebody comes out with something a little bit

·2· · · · better, so it was time to move away from the

·3· · · · Project 70 and go to one of these others that you

·4· · · · can get a little bit more hardness out of it, a

·5· · · · little bit more control over the manufacturing

·6· · · · of it, so that's why we went to Outokumpu.

·7· ·Q.· ·When you were saying that the steels you can get

·8· · · · a little more hardness, what type of hardness

·9· · · · were you getting out of the Project 70+?

10· ·A.· ·It was bracketed to be right at 40 Rockwell plus

11· · · · or minus two.· That's the original hardness

12· · · · rating for every barrel produced from the day we

13· · · · started up until that last order right there.

14· ·Q.· ·The KKM website advertising says that all of the

15· · · · barrels are made from 416R stainless steel with

16· · · · a hardness of 42.· Is this referring to the

17· · · · Carpenter Project 70+?

18· ·A.· ·No, because that language was added I believe in

19· · · · 2017 and that's when we pretty much ran out of

20· · · · any of the Project 70.· There was no more left

21· · · · over from it and the Outokumpu stuff is generally

22· · · · in the 43 and above range.· It's quite a bit

23· · · · more, so the 42 on the website was added in

24· · · · there.· We didn't get the tolerance range that

25· · · · we have for that, but that's just the mean

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·1· · · · average that we try to bracket.

·2· ·Q.· ·When in 2017 was the website changed?

·3· ·A.· ·Sometime in 2017.· I couldn't tell you the exact

·4· · · · date.

·5· ·Q.· ·And were you the one that made that change?

·6· ·A.· ·Yep.

·7· ·Q.· ·Let's look at paragraph 16 where Mr. Shah

·8· · · · indicates that, "Data sheets from Carpenter

·9· · · · regarding Project 70+ grade 416 indicates that

10· · · · Project 70+ is not recommended for vessels

11· · · · containing gases or liquids under high

12· · · · pressures," and he refers to Exhibit A, which is

13· · · · here.· Have you seen this before?

14· ·A.· ·Yeah, I've seen their data sheets.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And actually it's highlighted here where

16· · · · it says, "It's not recommended for vessels

17· · · · containing gases or liquids under high

18· · · · pressures."· Do you see that?

19· ·A.· ·Yep.

20· ·Q.· ·Was KKM aware of this statement here in your data

21· · · · sheets when it ordered Project 70+ from Carpenter?

22· ·A.· ·My dad was probably aware of it, but, yeah, it's

23· · · · not something that I dealt with.

24· ·Q.· ·So the Project 70+ when it was ordered for use

25· · · · in manufacturing KKM barrels, that was done

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·1· · · · exclusively by your father?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah, he's the one who ordered the steel from

·3· · · · the day we started up through he passed away in

·4· · · · 2015.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You never had any role in the selection

·6· · · · or ordering of the Project 70+?

·7· ·A.· ·No, that wasn't my job.

·8· ·Q.· ·Were you involved in the ordering of the

·9· · · · Outokumpu steel?

10· ·A.· ·Yep.

11· ·Q.· ·And it sounds like obviously based on the date

12· · · · of when your father passed away and then you are

13· · · · assertion that KKM didn't start using BQ5 until

14· · · · 2020, you obviously were involved in the

15· · · · ordering of the BQ5 from Carpenter, correct?

16· ·A.· ·From Samuel, Son.

17· ·Q.· ·From Samuel, Son, correct?

18· ·A.· ·Yeah, yep.

19· ·Q.· ·Again, it's your testimony that the KKM 416

20· · · · restricted specifications provided to Samuel,

21· · · · Son were all over the telephone, correct?

22· ·A.· ·Yes, and a lot of times their dealer would actually

23· · · · stop into the shop here and just say hello.

24· ·Q.· ·Who was that person, do you know?

25· ·A.· ·If memory serves, that would have been Bob Varian.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Can you spell that?

·2· ·A.· ·I can't spell it.· I don't know his spelling of

·3· · · · it, but it's Bob Varian.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And he would sometimes stop in your shop?

·5· ·A.· ·Yeah, every couple of months to say hello.

·6· ·Q.· ·When he would stop in the shop, would you then

·7· · · · place verbal orders with him at that time?

·8· ·A.· ·I believe dad had talked about it, yes. I

·9· · · · wouldn't, but I always did it over the phone.

10· ·Q.· ·What about the order that we talked about that

11· · · · was a direct KKM to Carpenter order?· Was that

12· · · · done by phone?

13· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· It was too many years ago.

14· ·Q.· ·What about the one from 2020, the BQ5 order, was

15· · · · that by phone?

16· ·A.· ·Probably through Samuel, Son, yeah, that was

17· · · · probably over the phone.

18· ·Q.· ·Do you have an opinion one way or the other as

19· · · · to the installation of a tungsten sleeve on a

20· · · · barrel, whether it affects the barrel in any way?

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

22· ·A.· ·Completely destroys the barrel.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) In what fashion?

24· ·A.· ·Tungsten retains heat.· Tungsten, it doesn't

25· · · · stay together real well.· It cracks really

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·1· · · · easily.· It's really tough to machine and to

·2· · · · adhere to a different type of metal, so there's

·3· · · · all kinds of problems with tungsten and we used

·4· · · · to produce a tungsten sleeve barrel many, many

·5· · · · years ago, and through our own testing, we found

·6· · · · that it is not worth the trouble.· They're very

·7· · · · short-lived.· You barely get 10,000 rounds on it

·8· · · · before the tungsten fails.

·9· ·Q.· ·Did KKM at one point in time sell tungsten

10· · · · sleeve barrels?

11· ·A.· ·We did, yeah.

12· ·Q.· ·Do you remember when that was?

13· ·A.· ·Twenty years ago, a long time ago.

14· ·Q.· ·I understand that you have a customer that

15· · · · operates under the name of Limcat?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·Does Limcat do tungsten sleeves?

18· ·A.· ·He does.

19· ·Q.· ·And have you had any discussions with him about

20· · · · his barrels failing with tungsten sleeves?

21· ·A.· ·A lot of discussions, but not about failing,

22· · · · just about tweaking dimensions and how to get it

23· · · · to function on there, so he has a very specific

24· · · · design of a barrel that he custom orders for his

25· · · · tungsten sleeves and, yeah, he still orders them

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·1· · · · and he's been happy.

·2· ·Q.· ·Do you know if he's experienced any failures

·3· · · · with tungsten sleeves?

·4· ·A.· ·Early on when he was first developing them, yeah,

·5· · · · he had all kinds of problems and then he figured

·6· · · · out the correct dimensions to use to make sure

·7· · · · the tungsten survived when it's on the barrel.

·8· ·Q.· ·It's been asserted on social media that the

·9· · · · barrel issues or failures that Akai was

10· · · · experiencing was the result of Mr. Horowitz's

11· · · · own doing.· Are you familiar with that chat?

12· ·A.· ·I am.

13· ·Q.· ·What to your knowledge is there out there about

14· · · · how Mr. Horowitz is the cause of the failures

15· · · · with the KKM barrels that he's using?

16· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.· Are

17· · · · you asking him about any particular publication?

18· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Not publication, but what is

19· · · · his knowledge about the failures claimed by

20· · · · Mr. Horowitz.

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· That's exactly the

22· · · · question I want to just clarify.· Are you asking

23· · · · Mr. McIntire about Mr. Horowitz's craftsmanship

24· · · · or are you asking him about comments that have

25· · · · been made on the internet?· That's what I didn't

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·1· · · · understand from the question.

·2· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I'll clarify.

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Thank you.

·4· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Do you have any belief

·5· · · · as to if it's a craftsmanship issue of Mr. Horowitz

·6· · · · that's a cause of the failures with the KKM

·7· · · · barrels?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·9· ·A.· ·I've seen enough of the guns now that absolutely,

10· · · · I know exactly what's wrong with them.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) When you say you've

12· · · · seen enough of the guns, what guns are you

13· · · · referring to?

14· ·A.· ·In the last two years I've had two dozen Akai

15· · · · guns come through here.· I personally have five

16· · · · or six of them that I have submitted to industry

17· · · · professionals for evaluation.· I have blueprinted

18· · · · every single one that's come through the shop

19· · · · dimensionally and compared that to all the other

20· · · · builders out there, along with prints of

21· · · · tolerances, of what they need to be and he is,

22· · · · the way he builds guns are outside of the common

23· · · · tolerance range for any builder out there.

24· ·Q.· ·Where did you obtain these Akai guns?

25· ·A.· ·Some of them were provided by former team

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·1· · · · members.· Some of them were just customers of

·2· · · · his that said, "Yeah, his gun is failing.· Do

·3· · · · you want it?"· And they bring it by and I've got

·4· · · · them here, got quite a few.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And let's identify the guns.· You

·6· · · · mentioned you had what, five or six of them?

·7· ·A.· ·Currently, yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's start with the first one you have.

·9· · · · Do you remember who provided that gun to you?

10· ·A.· ·I've got several guns from his former team

11· · · · member, Christian Saylor.

12· ·Q.· ·You have two of them?

13· ·A.· ·Could be three total.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Who else?

15· ·A.· ·And we have a list I think.· I'd have to check

16· · · · through my records to see exactly who the guns

17· · · · actually came from because it's been close to

18· · · · two years now, but --

19· ·Q.· ·But you have a list?

20· ·A.· ·I believe so, yeah, the transfer list of where

21· · · · they came from, yes.

22· ·Q.· ·I'm going to ask that you provide a copy of that

23· · · · list to Mr. Robinson and we will get that from

24· · · · him.· You mentioned that you sent these Akai

25· · · · guns to industry experts.· Who are some of the

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·1· · · · experts you sent the guns to?

·2· ·A.· ·One of them is Ed Cameron of Cameron Custom Guns.

·3· ·Q.· ·How is Cameron spelled?

·4· ·A.· ·I think it's the traditional spelling on that,

·5· · · · nothing special.

·6· ·Q.· ·C-a-m-e-r-o-n probably?

·7· ·A.· ·Probably.

·8· ·Q.· ·And when did you send an Akai gun to

·9· · · · Mr. Cameron?

10· ·A.· ·Several months ago I think was the first time.

11· ·Q.· ·When you say the first time, was there other

12· · · · instances that you sent guns to Mr. Cameron?

13· ·A.· ·We sent I think a total of five guns to him.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Cameron provide you a report?

15· ·A.· ·Him along with another industry expert, Eddie

16· · · · Garcia, did a joint report on I believe those

17· · · · five guns.

18· ·Q.· ·And where are these reports?

19· ·A.· ·We have the initial draft of it and the final

20· · · · draft is still being produced right now.

21· ·Q.· ·Are you going to be relying on Mr. Cameron or

22· · · · Mr. Garcia as experts in this case?

23· ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection and, listen,

25· · · · to the extent that this question asks you to

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·1· · · · address any conversations that you've had with

·2· · · · counsel, I'm instructing you not to answer

·3· · · · attorney/client privilege conversations.

·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I wasn't asking any questions

·5· · · · about any attorney/client communications.· I was

·6· · · · asking Mr. McIntire if he intended to rely on

·7· · · · Mr. Cameron or Mr. Garcia's expert reports.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Mr. McIntire has only

·9· · · · been sued with respect to the defamation claims

10· · · · and not with respect to any of the product claims.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Any other experts the

12· · · · Akai guns were sent to other than Mr. Cameron

13· · · · and Mr. Garcia?

14· ·A.· ·There has been a few others that have looked at

15· · · · it, but not provided any reports.· One of them

16· · · · would be Gene Shuey.

17· ·Q.· ·Do you know how to spell Shuey?

18· ·A.· ·Shuey, S-h-u-e-y.

19· ·Q.· ·And then you started to tell me another individual.

20· ·A.· ·The other one is I believe Adam Nilson at Atlas

21· · · · Gunworks.

22· ·Q.· ·Do you know how Adam spells Nilson?

23· ·A.· ·I don't believe, no, off the top of my head, but

24· · · · it's on his website.

25· ·Q.· ·But Mr. Nilson is with Atlas?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yes, Atlas Gunworks.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Anyone else?

·3· ·A.· ·I've also gotten the opinions from Johnny Lim at

·4· · · · Limcat Customs.

·5· ·Q.· ·Who else?

·6· ·A.· ·And Steve Huff over at Accuracy X.

·7· ·Q.· ·Huff like it sounds, H-u-f-f?

·8· ·A.· ·I think that's correct.

·9· ·Q.· ·What's the name of his company?

10· ·A.· ·Accuracy X.

11· ·Q.· ·Has Mr. Shuey provided any written report to you?

12· ·A.· ·No, everything's just been verbal other than

13· · · · Ed Cameron and Eddie Garcia.

14· ·Q.· ·What about Mr. Nilson at Atlas?

15· ·A.· ·Just verbal.

16· ·Q.· ·And Johnny Lim?

17· ·A.· ·Same thing.

18· ·Q.· ·When you say same thing, you mean verbal?

19· ·A.· ·Verbal, just verbal, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And what about Steve Huff at Accuracy X?

21· ·A.· ·Just verbal.

22· ·Q.· ·Do you expect to receive any written reports

23· · · · from Mr. Shuey?

24· ·A.· ·No.

25· ·Q.· ·What about written reports from Mr. Nilson?

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·1· ·A.· ·No.

·2· ·Q.· ·Mr. Lim?

·3· ·A.· ·No.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what about written reports from Mr. Huff?

·5· ·A.· ·No.

·6· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So at this point you're just waiting for

·7· · · · reports from Mr. Cameron and Mr. Garcia?

·8· ·A.· ·Final report from them, yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Now, did these people you refer to as outside

10· · · · experts, Mr. Cameron, Mr. Garcia, Mr. Shuey,

11· · · · Mr. Nilson, Mr. Lim and Mr. Huff, did they all

12· · · · look at the same Akai guns or do they look at

13· · · · different ones?

14· ·A.· ·Same exact ones.

15· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you mentioned that you currently have

16· · · · five or six Akai guns in your possession.· Did

17· · · · these individuals look at all of those five or six?

18· ·A.· ·Yes, all of them.

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember when Mr. Garcia looked at

20· · · · these guns?

21· ·A.· ·Couldn't tell you for sure.· It was maybe early

22· · · · this year or late last year.

23· ·Q.· ·What about Mr. Shuey?

24· ·A.· ·Since this started, Jean Shuey is just down the

25· · · · street, so he's in our shop almost weekly.

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·1· ·Q.· ·So this would have been sometime in 2020?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·What about Johnny Lim?

·4· ·A.· ·Same thing.· He lives locally, so he's always here.

·5· ·Q.· ·So he looked at them early?

·6· ·A.· ·Yep.

·7· ·Q.· ·And what about Mr. Huff?

·8· ·A.· ·His was just recently along with Adam over at

·9· · · · Atlas.

10· ·Q.· ·And what kind of Akai guns are these?

11· ·A.· ·Most of them are open guns.· I believe there is

12· · · · one limited gun in 40 SW, but the others are

13· · · · some form of an open plastic, all 2011s.

14· ·Q.· ·I asked you earlier when you have a moment to

15· · · · provide a list of the people you obtained the

16· · · · guns from, and if you could provide that to

17· · · · Mr. Robinson, who we'll get that from, but other

18· · · · than Mr. Saylor, do you remember any other names

19· · · · of either Akai team members or customers that

20· · · · you obtained the guns from?

21· ·A.· ·Not off the top of my head.

22· ·Q.· ·Now, the guns that you obtained from either Akai

23· · · · team members or Akai customers, do you have any

24· · · · knowledge of whether those guns were worked on

25· · · · by any other gunsmiths or anyone other than Akai?

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·1· ·A.· ·The customers described them as only Akai worked

·2· · · · on them and nobody else.

·3· ·Q.· ·So of the five or six guns that you have, all of

·4· · · · those owners of those guns that you obtained

·5· · · · them from, all told you that Akai was the only

·6· · · · one that worked on them?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep.

·8· ·Q.· ·And you made a general statement earlier that

·9· · · · the experts were indicating that the problems

10· · · · with the Akai guns were what again?

11· ·A.· ·It ranged everything from timing to just basic

12· · · · installation, dimensions that he was cutting

13· · · · that are outside of normal specs for 2011.

14· · · · They are all over the place.

15· ·Q.· ·And do you remember specifically what dimensions

16· · · · were I guess cut out of specification?

17· ·A.· ·The first one where the lower link is cut and

18· · · · that generally sets the timing of the gun.· The

19· · · · lower link basically swings at, it can go from

20· · · · say zero would be straight up and down, and as

21· · · · it locks up into battery, it swings over to

22· · · · about anywhere between 40 and 45/1000ths is what

23· · · · a 1911 is supposed to be and the dimensions that

24· · · · Akai cuts them to are wildly outside of those

25· · · · dimensions, some of them being as far as

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·1· ·69/1000ths over center on one of the guns.· Most

·2· ·of the guns were in the 55 to 60 thou range over

·3· ·center, which completely retards the timing and

·4· ·causes the gun to crash, hence that's why you

·5· ·get rolled radial lugs up on top because the

·6· ·barrel is still engaged with the slide.· As it

·7· ·hits the frame, it causes a crash and every

·8· ·single gun, all 20 plus that have come through

·9· ·the shop have been done that exact same way.

10· ·Another one are the chambers are either not cut

11· ·with a reamer or they were done with some kind

12· ·of dremel.· There's major tool marks inside and

13· ·depths are way too far out of Sammy's spec, so

14· ·it causes a lot of bullet jump in there.· It

15· ·causes severe pressure differences, so that's

16· ·another big one.· Another one is on the frames

17· ·themselves when he goes and takes the slide and

18· ·puts it on there, he does what's called either

19· ·short stroking or long stroking the slides and

20· ·some of them are so far cut that the slide itself

21· ·will just jam up on there.· You can't actually

22· ·even get the thing to function correctly.

23· ·Another one is some of the safeties have been

24· ·machined to the point where they're unusable, so

25· ·you can grab a gun and shake it and the dang

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·1· · · · thing will go off because the safeties don't work.

·2· ·Q.· ·Go ahead.

·3· ·A.· ·Another one that we discovered on there was he

·4· · · · puts a tremendous amount of shock buffers in

·5· · · · there, aluminum shock buffers.· One of them has,

·6· · · · boy, what is it, four or five shock buffers on

·7· · · · there which de-strokes the gun, causes the slide

·8· · · · to not move a correct amount on it.· That's

·9· · · · another big one, causes a crash at that point,

10· · · · but the biggest thing that I have seen on there

11· · · · is when he installs the tungsten sleeves onto

12· · · · it.· Tungsten sleeves are quite a bit bigger in

13· · · · diameter than a traditional barrel.· They're

14· · · · about three-quarters of an inch and he goes and

15· · · · bores the slide out, so when you blueprint a

16· · · · gun, you want to take a look at that angle that

17· · · · the barrel sits at.· When it's in the slide, it

18· · · · should be right around one degree as it tilts up

19· · · · into battery and him machining out that slide

20· · · · got rid of that degree cut that's in there, so

21· · · · the radial lugs in the slide no longer match the

22· · · · radial rugs lugs in the barrel.· They're not set

23· · · · at one degree anymore and that will cause the

24· · · · radial lugs to prematurely wear, and something

25· · · · else I noticed is also when he's installing the

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·1· · · · tungsten sleeve, he wipes out the first radial

·2· · · · lug on the barrel, completely gets rid of it, so

·3· · · · it only has two bearing surfaces at that point

·4· · · · and that's something that should never be done.

·5· · · · Another one is when he installs that tungsten

·6· · · · sleeve on it, he has to turn that barrel down

·7· · · · quite a bit.· Some of them on the 40 cal barrel,

·8· · · · the gun on the 40 cal one, the wall thickness

·9· · · · between the bore itself and the bottom of the

10· · · · thread that he's cutting into that was a little

11· · · · over 40/1000ths.· It was extremely thin.· That

12· · · · will cause the barrel to actually crack in half,

13· · · · which there's lots of pictures of barrels doing

14· · · · that exact same thing and one of the guns

15· · · · actually has a different brand of barrel.· It's

16· · · · a Kart barrel and that one there is doing the

17· · · · exact same thing.· It's cracked two-thirds of

18· · · · the way all the way around.· If someone were to

19· · · · shoot that even a couple more shots, it would

20· · · · have blown up in their face and that's a brand

21· · · · new gun that Akai built.· That one is really,

22· · · · really, on that one, but, yeah, there's tons of

23· · · · problems.· The list goes on and on and on.

24· ·Q.· ·The gun with the Kart barrel, do you know who

25· · · · the owner of that gun is?

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·1· ·A.· ·I'd have to look.· I believe that was Christian

·2· · · · Saylor.

·3· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You mentioned that you had five or six

·4· · · · Akai guns in your possession that you sent out

·5· · · · to these industry experts.· You mentioned that

·6· · · · the one gun has a Kart barrel.· What about the

·7· · · · other guns, what kind of barrels do they have?

·8· ·A.· ·They're all KKM barrels.

·9· ·Q.· ·So all but the one, correct?

10· ·A.· ·Yep.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, when you met Shay at, not saying for

12· · · · the first time, but when you saw Shay at the

13· · · · 2016 USPSA match in Frostproof, Florida, did you

14· · · · know at that time that Shay was installing

15· · · · tungsten sleeves?

16· ·A.· ·I think he mentioned it, but I don't remember

17· · · · seeing a gun down there with a tungsten sleeve,

18· · · · but --

19· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you kind of remember that he may have

20· · · · mentioned it?

21· ·A.· ·Yeah, because he mentioned how he was putting a

22· · · · tungsten sleeve on.· Either one of them, one of

23· · · · the two he was either putting in a freezer, the

24· · · · other one an oven and like doing a shrink fit to

25· · · · get away from using Loc-Tite which is what

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·1· · · · Johnny Lim uses, and shrink-fitting it on there,

·2· · · · it's a questionable practice.· We've never done

·3· · · · it that way just because it puts a lot of stress

·4· · · · into the barrel itself.

·5· ·Q.· ·At that particular moment in time in 2016 had

·6· · · · you already formulated the opinion that tungsten

·7· · · · sleeve was not good for installation on the barrel?

·8· ·A.· ·That's always been my opinion.· It can be done.

·9· · · · The guns don't live very long, but, you know, if

10· · · · that's what the customer wants and they know

11· · · · that the gun may not last more than 10,000

12· · · · rounds, hey, that's up to them, but through all

13· · · · of our testing that we've done for decades and

14· · · · decades, yeah, trying to adhere two different

15· · · · types of material onto each other has never worked.

16· ·Q.· ·How long did KKM sell tungsten sleeve barrels?

17· ·A.· ·It would have been about two years is what I recall.

18· ·Q.· ·Were you involved with that or was that your dad?

19· ·A.· ·That was primarily my dad.· I did the chambering

20· · · · on it and the final prep work, which is just

21· · · · polishing.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So KKM manufactured the barrels already

23· · · · with the sleeves on them for sale?

24· ·A.· ·We would take one of our barrels and then create

25· · · · a sleeve and we would match the two together.

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·1· · · · We tried everything from silver soldering it on.

·2· · · · We tried little pins going through both the

·3· · · · barrel and the tungsten and the last thing we

·4· · · · tried was just threading them and then

·5· · · · Loc-Titeing it, which is the more acceptable

·6· · · · way.· That's what Limcat does and that's what

·7· · · · proved to be the better version of it, but they

·8· · · · just wouldn't last.

·9· ·Q.· ·The five or six guns that you are in possession

10· · · · of that you sent out to be looked at by the

11· · · · experts, did these all have tungsten sleeves?

12· ·A.· ·No, I believe one or two of them do.

13· ·Q.· ·Only one or two?

14· ·A.· ·Yep.

15· ·Q.· ·And did you happen to notice how those tungsten

16· · · · sleeves are installed?

17· ·A.· ·They're all threaded on.

18· ·Q.· ·Where are those guns currently?

19· ·A.· ·In my safe.

20· ·Q.· ·So they've been returned from the individuals that

21· · · · looked at them like Mr. Cameron and Mr. Garcia?

22· ·A.· ·Yep.

23· ·Q.· ·I want to go back to this is Exhibit No. 5,

24· · · · which again is the documents produced as KKM-1

25· · · · through KKM-167.

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·1· ·A.· ·Yep.

·2· ·Q.· ·Wow, that's too big.· For the first time I've

·3· · · · got to make something smaller.· So this is a

·4· · · · document that you produced or KKM produced as

·5· · · · part of the discovery requests which shows some

·6· · · · pictures?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· ·Q.· ·The first one is KKM-1.· Do you see this?

·9· ·A.· ·Yep.

10· ·Q.· ·Is this one of the -- is this a picture of one

11· · · · of the barrels from one of the five or six guns

12· · · · that you currently have possession of?

13· ·A.· ·No.

14· ·Q.· ·And where did you get this barrel from?

15· ·A.· ·From one of Akai's customers.

16· ·Q.· ·Do you know who the customer is?

17· ·A.· ·Yep.

18· ·Q.· ·And who is the customer?

19· ·A.· ·I believe his name is Bill and last name I

20· · · · believe is Baker.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how did you obtain this barrel from

22· · · · Mr. Baker?

23· ·A.· ·We have never actually seen the barrel.· We were

24· · · · just provided the pictures from Bill.

25· ·Q.· ·Oh, okay.· So these pictures are from Mr. Baker?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yep.

·2· ·Q.· ·So these are not your pictures or KKM pictures,

·3· · · · correct?

·4· ·A.· ·No.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So KKM-1 and KKM-2 are pictures from

·6· · · · Mr. Baker provided to you?

·7· ·A.· ·That's correct.

·8· ·Q.· ·How did Mr. Baker provide this to you?· Was it

·9· · · · in an e-mail?

10· ·A.· ·In an e-mail, yep.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was it sent directly to you or just to

12· · · · KKM like that support e-mail?

13· ·A.· ·Yeah, I believe it was sent to support.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You indicated that the general policy is

15· · · · you don't open attachments.· Was this sent in

16· · · · the form of an attachment?

17· ·A.· ·He called us up and said, "Hey, I've got a story

18· · · · to tell."· He said, "I'm going to send you an

19· · · · e-mail with some pictures and tell you my story

20· · · · about what happened to his couple of guns."

21· · · · Yeah, it was very telling.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what did he tell you about his gun?

23· ·A.· ·He's got several Akai guns and he had multiple

24· · · · failures.· First barrel installed in the gun was

25· · · · a Kart barrel.· It had the same malfunction,

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·1· · · · broke.· He then said that Shay had installed one

·2· · · · of our barrels into it and that one broke and

·3· · · · then I believe a third barrel was put into it

·4· · · · and that's what is currently in it and we

·5· · · · actually have that gun now.

·6· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry.· You said you have that gun now?

·7· ·A.· ·Yeah, we have that gun now, yep.

·8· ·Q.· ·That's one of the five or six you're talking about?

·9· ·A.· ·One of the five, yep.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Mr. Baker sent that gun to you?

11· ·A.· ·He did.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what is the current barrel in that gun?

13· ·A.· ·It's a tungsten sleeve 1911 barrel.

14· ·Q.· ·Is it a KKM barrel?

15· ·A.· ·It is.

16· ·Q.· ·And looking at -- I've got to make this smaller.

17· · · · This is KKM-3.· Is this another picture from

18· · · · Mr. Baker?

19· ·A.· ·It appears to be, yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And looking at comparing the picture in KKM-3

21· · · · with KKM-2 and 1, do you know if this is the

22· · · · same barrel that's depicted in all three pictures?

23· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· Yeah, they're too similar.

24· ·Q.· ·And looking at KKM-1 and KKM-2, do you know if

25· · · · this is the KKM barrel or the Kart barrel?

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·1· ·A.· ·It's hard to tell.· It looks like one of ours,

·2· · · · but from the picture you'd have to blow it way

·3· · · · up and I'd have to --

·4· ·Q.· ·Let me try that real quick here.

·5· ·A.· ·It's hard to see if there's a logo on that lower

·6· · · · corner there or not.

·7· ·Q.· ·Right here you're talking about?

·8· ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· ·Q.· ·Oh, geez, this one is too big.· What about

10· · · · looking at this picture depicted in KKM-3, can

11· · · · you tell from looking at this if this is the

12· · · · Kart barrel or the KKM barrel?

13· ·A.· ·It appears to be the KKM.· You can barely make

14· · · · out the logo.

15· ·Q.· ·Right here?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·I want to go back to these pages we already

18· · · · talked about earlier, which are KKM-10 through

19· · · · KKM-17, which are the spread sheet numbers

20· · · · provided to you from Nevada Heat Treat?

21· ·A.· ·Yep.

22· ·Q.· ·Is there any way for one to know looking at

23· · · · these numbers here from these, okay, it

24· · · · identifies in the column that this is, the left

25· · · · column is the Nevada Heat Treating work order

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·1· · · · number and then the right column is the hardness

·2· · · · test results?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·But looking at the work order numbers, is there

·5· · · · a way to determine whether Nevada Heat Treating

·6· · · · is testing the Outokumpu barrels or the Project 70

·7· · · · barrels from Carpenter?

·8· ·A.· ·There is no way for them to tell, but we do them

·9· · · · in batches, so when we send barrels to Nevada

10· · · · Heat Treat, they are only a specific type, so

11· · · · like if you look at, let's see.

12· ·Q.· ·I can blow it up if you need to.

13· ·A.· ·Yeah, blow it up.

14· ·Q.· ·Looks like you're leaning closer to the screen,

15· · · · so let me help you.· How's that?

16· ·A.· ·Yeah, so that's good.· So you can look at that

17· · · · and see what they tested.· You know, if it's

18· · · · really high, obviously that's going to be the

19· · · · Outokumpu.· If it's real low, it could be the

20· · · · Project 70, it could be not even pistol barrels.

21· · · · It could be some of the rifle barrels that we've

22· · · · produced.· It could be all kinds of different

23· · · · stuff.· Not all of that on this sheet is actual

24· · · · pistol barrels.

25· ·Q.· ·You mentioned, you just mentioned rifle barrels.

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·1· · · · Would you use the Outokumpu or the Carpenter

·2· · · · Project 70+ to manufacture the rifle barrels?

·3· ·A.· ·No.

·4· ·Q.· ·And what type of steel would you use to

·5· · · · manufacture the rifle barrels?

·6· ·A.· ·Rifle barrel steel is usually provided to us

·7· · · · from the customer, so, for example, Limcat makes

·8· · · · PCC guns, little short rifles.· They source

·9· · · · material from a company called Pac-Nor, which

10· · · · produces rifle barrels and we get ahold of some

11· · · · of that rifle barrel stuff and we make it into

12· · · · their specific custom barrel and that stuff

13· · · · there, rifle barrels are generally hardness

14· · · · range could be high twenties to mid-thirties,

15· · · · maybe high thirties on the very highest end.

16· · · · You generally don't ever see a rifle barrel

17· · · · above 38 or 39, you know, it's too hard.· Anything

18· · · · above that is too hard for a rifle barrel.

19· ·Q.· ·But when KKM manufactures a rifle barrel, you

20· · · · guys don't order the steel.· The customer

21· · · · obtains it somewhere and provides it to you?

22· ·A.· ·Yeah, they do Douglas blanks, Krieger, Pac-Nor.

23· · · · There's a lot of rifle barrel makers out there

24· · · · and they will provide blanks.· That's just one

25· · · · of the services that we do.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Do you know these customers that provide the

·2· · · · steel to you to manufacture rifle barrels, do

·3· · · · you know what type of steel is provided to KKM?

·4· ·A.· ·It would be generally, so like Pak-Nor stuff,

·5· · · · I've tested it with our x-ray fluorescent gun

·6· · · · that we have and theirs is generally the

·7· · · · crucible 416R, which is a really low grade of

·8· · · · like sulphur and certain chemical parts that are

·9· · · · much lower than what you would use for pistol

10· · · · barrels, but that stuff there has definitely the

11· · · · been the Crucible brand of steel.

12· · · · · · · · ·(Technical difficulties.)

13· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 3:13 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.)

14· · · · · · · · ·(Reporter reads back question.)

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) I believe Mr. McIntire

16· · · · started to explain to me about Crucible 416R?

17· ·A.· ·That's one type that I have seen come through

18· · · · here.· There's been a variety of different

19· · · · types, even not even stainless.· Some of it has

20· · · · been Chromoly -- I think I lost you again.

21· · · · You're back.

22· ·Q.· ·All right.· Go ahead.

23· ·A.· ·The stuff from Pac-More has been the crucible

24· · · · 416R rifle grade of steel.· That stuff there was

25· · · · provided to us in about I think it was 26

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·1· · · · Rockwell range, which is pretty typical for a

·2· · · · rifle.· We made some barrels out of it, some PCC

·3· · · · barrels, and then heat treated again, got it up

·4· · · · to about I think 37 is what that stuff got to a

·5· · · · max of and that was for Limcat.· Other companies

·6· · · · have provided Douglas blanks.· Some have done

·7· · · · Krieger.· It's been a variety of different

·8· · · · types, but most rifle barrel steel will be in

·9· · · · that kind of range that Crucible kind of

10· · · · brackets, you know.· Are we frozen again?

11· ·Q.· ·No, I'm still here.· Yep.

12· ·A.· ·So there's been a variety of it.

13· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me go back to Exhibit 5 again, and

14· · · · again, these are the Nevada Heat Treating

15· · · · results -- Mr. McIntire, can you hear me?

16· ·A.· ·Yes.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you indicated that there's no way to

18· · · · tell, for instance, from these work order numbers

19· · · · which steel is being tested here, whether it's

20· · · · the Outokumpu or the Carpenter, but you can

21· · · · sometimes tell by looking at either the numbers

22· · · · or sometimes they would be batched, correct?

23· ·A.· ·Yeah, we always batch it.· We don't mix the

24· · · · types of steel because in heat treat you don't

25· · · · want to have two different types.· Say like you

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·1· · · · had Chromoly or something like that next to

·2· · · · stainless.· They would end up affecting each

·3· · · · other, so we generally always do it in batches.

·4· ·Q.· ·So looking at KKM-11 here for the year 2017 work

·5· · · · order number 88180, this would be one batch of a

·6· · · · particular type of steel, not a mix of steel?

·7· ·A.· ·Yeah, it would be one type.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And looking down at 2017 there is a batch

·9· · · · here in work order number 89999 that shows that

10· · · · there was a test result of 39.2 to 41.3.· Again,

11· · · · can you tell by looking at this what steel this

12· · · · was?

13· ·A.· ·Most likely that was the Project 70, but, you

14· · · · know, I couldn't tell 100 percent sure.· That's

15· · · · what it looks like to me.

16· ·Q.· ·And you indicated that Project 70, the hardness,

17· · · · the acceptable minimal hardness is 40?

18· ·A.· ·No, that the range that we bracket is 40, plus

19· · · · or minus two.

20· ·Q.· ·Okay.

21· ·A.· ·It's designed to be right at 40 Rockwell.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what about work order number 90800

23· · · · where the numbers are 30.5 to 30.9, can you tell

24· · · · which steel this was?

25· ·A.· ·That's probably rifle steel.· It's pretty close,

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·1· · · · but my guess would be that would be rifle steel.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is there any way that is it possible this

·3· · · · could be the Project 70 or based on the numbers,

·4· · · · there is no way it can be?

·5· ·A.· ·Yeah, that's too low for Project 70, I don't

·6· · · · think I've ever seen Project 70 go below 39.

·7· ·Q.· ·And which barrels would KKM use the Project 70

·8· · · · to make?

·9· ·A.· ·Well, from the day we started up until just a

10· · · · few years ago, it was everything, Glock barrels,

11· · · · 1911 barrels, Berettas, Sigs, I mean you name

12· · · · it, it was all of it.· It was our sole source of

13· · · · steel.

14· ·Q.· ·So that would include all of the 1911 style

15· · · · barrels?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·And when KKM was using exclusively the Project 70,

18· · · · was it advertised to the public at that time

19· · · · that that was a 416 restricted steel?

20· ·A.· ·No, we never advertised what we used.· Our

21· · · · reputation was built upon that Project 70

22· · · · because it was phenomenal stuff.· Our entire

23· · · · reputation was built on it.

24· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you

25· · · · testified earlier that the reference to 416R on

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·1· · · · the website started in about 2017?

·2· ·A.· ·That's when we had customers start to ask, you

·3· · · · know, do you use this type, do you use this type,

·4· · · · so we went a little more specific than what we

·5· · · · currently had on the website at that time.

·6· ·Q.· ·And remind me again, I think I asked you, but

·7· · · · when did you start using the Outokumpu?

·8· ·A.· ·I'd have to look back.· Some of those cert

·9· · · · sheets I believe were 2014, something like that.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But I think you told me earlier though

11· · · · that KKM stopped using the Project 70+ in 2014,

12· · · · correct?

13· ·A.· ·That was the last order that we had from it and

14· · · · we had a couple of customers still request it

15· · · · through the years on special projects, but to

16· · · · the consumer, yeah, we use the Outokumpu almost

17· · · · exclusively.

18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· We're back at Exhibit No. 5.· This is

19· · · · we're at the page that's Bates labeled KKM-40?

20· ·A.· ·Yep.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· What is this document here, Mr. McIntire?

22· ·A.· ·This is what we give to customers that want to

23· · · · try to do their own Rockwell testing or have it

24· · · · done somewhere, so it's basically an instruction

25· · · · sheet of where to test and here's an example, so

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·1· · · · there's examples there of correct spots to test

·2· · · · and incorrect spots to test, so if you test in a

·3· · · · bad spot, you know, you're going to get deflection

·4· · · · and the numbers are going to be all over the

·5· · · · place, so it's just an instruction sheet to tell

·6· · · · people the correct spot to actually test.

·7· ·Q.· ·I see that in number paragraph one under General

·8· · · · Information, it indicates the standard test

·9· · · · method for Rockwell hardness of type 416

10· · · · "restricted" stainless steel.· Why does it say

11· · · · restricted there, but it doesn't say the term

12· · · · restricted on the KKM website?

13· ·A.· ·It's not something that we needed to put on

14· · · · there.· It's just something that we didn't do.

15· · · · This was an instruction sheet in response to all

16· · · · of the stuff that Shay was posting online about

17· · · · how he was testing, positions he was testing, so

18· · · · we wanted to put this out there to any customer

19· · · · that wanted it or asked for it and show them the

20· · · · correct way how we test and how we get our

21· · · · results so that they can duplicate it.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· You're saying that this was created in

23· · · · response to the stuff that Shay was putting out

24· · · · there on social media?

25· ·A.· ·Yeah.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you remember specifically what he put

·2· · · · out there that caused you to I guess publish

·3· · · · this document?

·4· ·A.· ·It was all the pictures.· There were dozens and

·5· · · · dozens of pictures floating around on social

·6· · · · media that showed people testing way out on the

·7· · · · end of the barrel, all these places that made no

·8· · · · sense.· Any engineer would look at it and go no,

·9· · · · that's not how you do it, especially if you read

10· · · · the ASTM standards, the tests were done incorrectly.

11· ·Q.· ·Do you remember when specifically this document,

12· · · · again labeled at KKM-40, was created?

13· ·A.· ·It was late 2019, early 2020.

14· ·Q.· ·And, again, this was in response to the claims

15· · · · that Shay was making?

16· ·A.· ·All of these social media pictures that were

17· · · · floating around that originated from Shay and

18· · · · his group.

19· ·Q.· ·Are there other versions of this testing procedure?

20· ·A.· ·We had some rough drafts that John and I, John

21· · · · Vlieger and I were sharing back and forth as we

22· · · · were explaining, like I would write something up

23· · · · and it was too in detail and couldn't really

24· · · · follow it, so there were some rough drafts, but

25· · · · this one here looks like the final draft.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is there a draft that refers to the steel

·2· · · · testing in terms of 416R?

·3· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· I didn't keep copies of

·4· · · · those drafts.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But in terms of like this draft, you would

·6· · · · have been the one that drafted this, correct?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes, I wrote this.

·8· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you're indicating that you wrote this

·9· · · · with the help of Mr. Vlieger or you wrote this

10· · · · to help Mr. Vlieger?

11· ·A.· ·No, I wrote this and shared it with Vlieger to

12· · · · basically get his opinion on is it something

13· · · · that he can read through and understand.

14· ·Q.· ·Okay.

15· ·A.· ·Shooters Connection was having a lot of people

16· · · · call up and I needed to get something out there

17· · · · to kind of show people exactly how to test, how

18· · · · to test it correctly without damaging the

19· · · · barrel, which was my biggest concern.· You test

20· · · · incorrectly, you can absolutely destroy the

21· · · · barrel to where it's dangerous to use.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall specifically or not

23· · · · whether there is a version of this testing

24· · · · example that refers to the steel simply as 416R?

25· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you what those drafts were

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·1· · · · because I was writing it up and I'd share it

·2· · · · with him and we'd rewrite some of it and there's

·3· · · · a lot of drafts, but I didn't save that.· I just

·4· · · · have the final one.

·5· ·Q.· ·So if there's a version that said 416R, do you

·6· · · · when know which one would have come first, the

·7· · · · version that says 416R or this version that says

·8· · · · 416 restricted?

·9· ·A.· ·This is the final draft is what it looks like.

10· ·Q.· ·Final draft, okay.

11· ·A.· ·Yep.

12· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 13.)

13· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· Let me go to

14· · · · Exhibit 13, make it a little bigger here.

15· · · · Exhibit 13 for identification purposes is a

16· · · · letter from the Kaempfer Crowell Law Firm.· Have

17· · · · you seen this document before?

18· ·A.· ·Yes.

19· ·Q.· ·This appears to be a letter that a Josh Correlli

20· · · · that wrote to Mr. Fiato dated December 30th, 2019.

21· · · · Do you see that?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·And attached to the letter Mr. Correlli provides

24· · · · a Rockwell testing procedure that supports some

25· · · · statements made in the letter, and let me look

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·1· · · · specifically at page three.· Do you see where it

·2· · · · says 416R?

·3· ·A.· ·Yep, that appears to be one of those drafts, yep.

·4· ·Q.· ·Now, you would have drafted this and provided

·5· · · · that to Mr. Correlli, correct?

·6· ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· ·Q.· ·And you would have obviously had to have provided

·8· · · · it to him sometime near December 30th, 2019,

·9· · · · correct?

10· ·A.· ·That's correct.

11· ·Q.· ·And ultimately the other one we were talking

12· · · · about, which is again KKM-40, this came later,

13· · · · correct?

14· ·A.· ·It appears to be, yes, that's the one I shared

15· · · · with Shooters Connection.

16· ·Q.· ·When you provided, when you say you provided

17· · · · testing procedures to Mr. Nathan Carter, do you

18· · · · know which version you provided him?

19· ·A.· ·Just the pictures in the text messages, that was it.

20· ·Q.· ·This Rockwell testing page here, did you ever

21· · · · provide this to Mr. Carter?

22· ·A.· ·I don't believe I shared that directly with him.

23· · · · I do not know what John shared with him, but I

24· · · · only had those short text message exchanges and

25· · · · that was it.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Do you know which version of this testing

·2· · · · protocol or testing procedure, whether it's the

·3· · · · one that says restricted or the one that says

·4· · · · just R to Mr. Vlieger?

·5· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.

·6· ·Q.· ·Going back to Exhibit No. 5, let's go to KKM-47.

·7· · · · Let me center this.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Can everyone see this?· Is

·9· · · · that yes?

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yes.

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Okay.· I'm not sure sometimes

12· · · · when I jump around, whether it's still on the

13· · · · same screen surface.· I wanted to make sure they

14· · · · were on the same document.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So this is Exhibit 5,

16· · · · page number 47, but specifically stamped KKM-47.

17· · · · In box number three here it looks like there was

18· · · · a test done on what is identified as an Akai

19· · · · tungsten sleeve failed barrel.· Do you see that,

20· · · · Mr. McIntire?

21· ·A.· ·I do.

22· ·Q.· ·Where did you obtain this Akai tungsten sleeve

23· · · · barrel?

24· ·A.· ·Couple of years ago Shay sent that barrel in,

25· · · · said it had 70,000 rounds on it and was worn out

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·1· · · · and the tungsten sleeve had moved on the barrel

·2· · · · about an eighth of an inch or so forward and he

·3· · · · just wanted me to take a look at it.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you say a couple years ago, what

·5· · · · time frame would this be?· A couple years ago

·6· · · · meaning like prior to 2019 or --

·7· ·A.· ·Yes, yes, I had had that barrel for quite a

·8· · · · while before all this started and it sat on my

·9· · · · desk for a long time.

10· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But it's your testimony that this barrel

11· · · · you obtained directly from Mr. Horowitz?

12· ·A.· ·Yep, he sent it directly to us.

13· ·Q.· ·And you're indicating that he indicated to you

14· · · · that it had about 70,000 rounds through it?

15· ·A.· ·He did, that is what he told me.· That's what it

16· · · · looks like inside.· It's definitely used.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know if this particular KKM

18· · · · barrel was an Outokumpu steel barrel or was it a

19· · · · Carpenter Project 70 barrel?

20· ·A.· ·That one there I couldn't tell you.· We did

21· · · · submit it to our industry expert and, yeah, he

22· · · · has it now.

23· ·Q.· ·When you say industry expert, who is that?· Is

24· · · · that one of the --

25· ·A.· ·Dr. Swanger.

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·1· ·Q.· ·So Dr. Swanger is currently in possession of

·2· · · · this Akai tungsten sleeve barrel?

·3· ·A.· ·Yes, every one on that list.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The one in box number one, the 2010

·5· · · · Carpenter Project 70+, where did you get that

·6· · · · barrel from?

·7· ·A.· ·Most of those barrels were ones in our display

·8· · · · case.· They were older barrels.· None of them

·9· · · · were used other than that Akai one.· They were

10· · · · all brand new and we kept them as samples.

11· ·Q.· ·So number two, the 2010 Carpenter Project 70+

12· · · · 9 x 19 no cryo treatment, this is a brand new

13· · · · barrel unused?

14· ·A.· ·Yeah, unused, yep.

15· ·Q.· ·And number four, the USAMU 2014 Carpenter

16· · · · Project 70+, also unused?

17· ·A.· ·Yep.

18· ·Q.· ·And number five is unused?

19· ·A.· ·Yes.

20· ·Q.· ·And number six is also unused?

21· ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· ·Q.· ·What about number seven?

23· ·A.· ·They're all unused.

24· ·Q.· ·Except the Akai?

25· ·A.· ·Except the Akai one, yep.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Now, number 11, this 2022 Carpenter BQ5, is this

·2· · · · from the batch of BQ5 that you received in 2020?

·3· ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.

·4· ·Q.· ·Are any of these barrels any of the BQ5 test

·5· · · · barrels that were sent to the military?

·6· ·A.· ·No.

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Actually, I need to take a

·8· · · · two-minute break to use the restroom.· Let me

·9· · · · stop the screen share.· What time do we have? I

10· · · · have 3:35.· You want to say, let's round off

11· · · · five minutes, let's say 3:40?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Yep, that works.

13· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 3:35 p.m. to 3:49 p.m.)

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So Mr. McIntire, before

15· · · · the break, we were discussing KKM document Bates

16· · · · labeled one which are the pictures of the barrel

17· · · · from Bill Baker.· Do you remember that?

18· ·A.· ·Yep.

19· ·Q.· ·You indicated to me that that barrel had 70

20· · · · rounds of ammo through it, correct?

21· ·A.· ·No, that was the barrel that Shay had returned

22· · · · to us.

23· ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.· So it was the

24· · · · Akai tungsten sleeve barrel that Shay sent to

25· · · · you that had 70,000 rounds, correct?

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·1· ·A.· ·Yep.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I apologize for the confusion there.

·3· · · · That particular barrel that you obtained from

·4· · · · Shay with the tungsten sleeve that had 70,000

·5· · · · barrels, did you share that information

·6· · · · regarding the 70,000 rounds with anybody?

·7· ·A.· ·No, I don't believe so.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did you share that with Mr. Bradley?

·9· ·A.· ·I can't recall.· Maybe, but I can't recall.· We

10· · · · did talk about that barrel, but I don't know if

11· · · · we went, specifically how many rounds were

12· · · · actually gone.

13· ·Q.· ·When you say we discussed it, are you referring

14· · · · to Mr. Bradley?

15· ·A.· ·Yes, Mr. Bradley.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember what you told him about

17· · · · that barrel, if anything?

18· ·A.· ·That the tungsten had failed on it and moved

19· · · · forward and described the barrel and described

20· · · · to him what I thought was wrong with it, as far

21· · · · as it was all discolored from retaining heat and

22· · · · that's one thing that tungsten does, it retains

23· · · · heat and doesn't dissipate it like stainless does,

24· · · · so as you shoot it, it just gets hotter and

25· · · · hotter and hotter until it literally just deforms.

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·1· ·Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Bradley that that barrel was

·2· · · · torched?

·3· ·A.· ·I believe that's a term that we use in the

·4· · · · industry, yes.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you tell Mr. Bradley that a torch

·6· · · · was used to take off the sleeve?

·7· ·A.· ·No, not to take it off.· That's a term used when

·8· · · · you shoot it so much that it heats up to the

·9· · · · point that it discolors like that.· That's

10· · · · called torching.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.

12· ·A.· ·Not that you took an acetylene torch to it or

13· · · · something, no, I didn't mean it in that fashion.

14· ·Q.· ·That sleeve, was it threaded on, to your memory?

15· ·A.· ·It appears to be threaded on, yes.

16· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you did discuss that barrel with

17· · · · Mr. Bradley.· You mentioned that it appeared to

18· · · · be torched, but you don't remember if you shared

19· · · · with him the information you got from Mr. Horowitz

20· · · · that had 70,000 rounds to it?

21· ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't remember that.

22· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is it your testimony here today that all

23· · · · of the barrels that KKM has produced have always

24· · · · been a 416R or 416 restricted barrel?

25· ·A.· ·To our specs, yes.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And earlier I had showed you, let me find it

·2· · · · first.· Let's see, here it is.· I know this is

·3· · · · an exhibit we've already talked about.· This

·4· · · · again is the Shooters Connection website

·5· · · · information.· Let me blow it up here. I

·6· · · · apologize if I already asked this question, but

·7· · · · the Shooters Connection website here indicates

·8· · · · that, "All KKM barrels are made using U.S.

·9· · · · manufactured 416 stainless steel bar stock which

10· · · · is then heat treated to vacuum temperature 42 to

11· · · · 45 RC."· Mr. Bradley testified at his deposition

12· · · · that this information would have come directly

13· · · · from the manufacturer, in this case obviously it

14· · · · would be KKM, because he's referring to a KKM

15· · · · barrel.· Would you agree?

16· ·A.· ·Yep.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know why the description here does

18· · · · not reference R?

19· ·A.· ·It looks like one of the previous generations

20· · · · from when we did an update, but it is R worthy.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· If KKM always sold 416R barrels, why

22· · · · would you describe them solely as 416?

23· ·A.· ·Because that's just the term that is used.· It

24· · · · is a grade of 416, but it is restricted to our

25· · · · specs, so it's too generalized, you know, it's

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·1· · · · just a grade of 416 is all that says right there

·2· · · · and that's technically what it is.· It's just

·3· · · · restricted.

·4· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So if this description here always

·5· · · · conformed with what you were selling, why was it

·6· · · · necessary to even add the R at a later date?

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

·8· · · · asked and answered.

·9· ·A.· ·There are so many different versions of 416R out

10· · · · there because 416R is technically a brand name

11· · · · from Crucible.· They trademarked it Crucible

12· · · · 416R, so when you Google 416R, you always come

13· · · · up with their version of it, but that's not the

14· · · · original version.· It's just what you find on

15· · · · Google, so we wanted to kind of educate people

16· · · · on the different types and differences between

17· · · · rifle grade of 416 and pistol grade 416.· There's

18· · · · a huge difference and you can't intermix the two.

19· · · · It would be extremely dangerous to do that, but

20· · · · as the years go on, we kind of explain just a

21· · · · little bit more and we just try to educate

22· · · · people on what kind of steel we actually use.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) You mentioned that the

24· · · · Crucible 416R was not originally invented by

25· · · · Crucible.· Do you know who originally invented

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·1· · · · the 416R?

·2· ·A.· ·Yeah, it was originally a steel mill called

·3· · · · Republic and that's where the R came from.· It

·4· · · · was their steel mill, Republic Steels, and they

·5· · · · were the ones that were contracted with the

·6· · · · project back in the eighties and, you know, that

·7· · · · was the steel that was used for only a few years

·8· · · · until the Carpenter Project 70 came about and

·9· · · · that took over because it was held to better

10· · · · tolerances.· The Republic steel, they didn't

11· · · · have vacuum furnaces back then.· It was done in

12· · · · just a big giant crucible which was done outside

13· · · · so there was a lot of impurities that happened,

14· · · · but that's how steel was manufactured in the

15· · · · eighties.· The technology wasn't quite there

16· · · · yet, but --

17· ·Q.· ·So you mentioned a second ago that if you do a

18· · · · search for 416R, you generally find the Crucible

19· · · · 416R, is that correct?

20· ·A.· ·That's correct.

21· ·Q.· ·Okay.· In your experience when you do a Google

22· · · · search for 416R, do you find any reference to

23· · · · the term 416 restricted?

24· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

25· ·A.· ·You can, yes.· I've seen that before.

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·1· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Do you remember where

·2· · · · you saw it?

·3· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you.· I'm not on Google right

·4· · · · now, but I have seen that before.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you happen to remember who the

·6· · · · manufacturer was that referred to the term

·7· · · · restricted?

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·9· ·A.· ·Boy, first place I've seen that firm would be

10· · · · BGH out of Germany.· They're a large steel

11· · · · manufacturer.· Every steel mill out there will

12· · · · either adhere to the rifle grade of 416R or some

13· · · · kind of custom, which I believe the two steel

14· · · · guys that you got from both Carpenter and

15· · · · Outokumpu tested that, that they will be

16· · · · restricted to whatever the customer wants.

17· · · · Pretty much every mill does that.· Is it in

18· · · · writing on Google or something like that? I

19· · · · couldn't tell you.· I've just seen it around.

20· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Other than BGH in

21· · · · Germany, do you recall seeing any others that

22· · · · manufacturers use the term restricted?

23· ·A.· ·There was another place that we had tried a long

24· · · · time ago called Bar One.· I remember dad getting

25· · · · some steel from them and they called it

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·1· · · · restricted.· They didn't want to -- Crucible was

·2· · · · very, they hold their trademark really well, so

·3· · · · like if you advertise 416R, they go after you

·4· · · · for it because you're trying to infringe on

·5· · · · their trademark and that happens quite a bit.

·6· ·Q.· ·If Crucible was very protective of the 416R

·7· · · · designation, why does KKM use that designation

·8· · · · on its website?

·9· ·A.· ·Well, we don't give the entire trademark.· It's

10· · · · Crucible 416R, so we generally shorn it down to

11· · · · what we use, which is a restricted 416.· If I

12· · · · said crucible 416R, they'd probably go after me

13· · · · if I went that specific.

14· ·Q.· ·Is the KKM barrels, the 416 restricted barrels,

15· · · · is it the same formula as the 416, the Crucible

16· · · · 416R?

17· ·A.· ·It is not.

18· · · · · · · · ·(Marked Exhibit No. 19.)

19· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Let me go to another

20· · · · document here.· We will label this one as

21· · · · Exhibit 19, and this was a document that

22· · · · Mr. Vlieger produced and I believe he was asked

23· · · · some questions about this on Tuesday.· I'm going

24· · · · to direct your attention, Mr. McIntire, to the

25· · · · date entry here that says December 18, 2019 at

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·1· · · · 12:52:15.· Do you see that?

·2· ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· ·Q.· ·Mr. McIntire, can you hear me?

·4· ·A.· ·Yeah, I can hear you, yeah.

·5· ·Q.· ·I was asking if you could see this entry here

·6· · · · dated December 18, 2019 at 12:52?

·7· ·A.· ·Yes, I see it.

·8· ·Q.· ·Mr. Vlieger indicates, I believe he's talking to

·9· · · · a gentleman named Brandan Bunker, and he

10· · · · indicates, "That's what I figured.· I had a good

11· · · · chat with Luke at KKM today."· Do you see that?

12· ·A.· ·Yes.

13· ·Q.· ·He goes on to tell Mr. Bunker in the next entry,

14· · · · "If you order direct from their website, you

15· · · · usually get the standard grade 416R steel.· We

16· · · · have been getting the 416R BQ5 grade steel,

17· · · · which is spec lower hardness."· Do you see that?

18· ·A.· ·Yep.

19· ·Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Vlieger this?

20· ·A.· ·No.· I told John the history of steel and what

21· · · · we use and, yeah, he didn't quite get the whole

22· · · · story correct right there.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you tell Mr. Vlieger?

24· ·A.· ·The entire story of how the steel came about in

25· · · · the eighties, to what we used originally and how

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·1· · · · we swapped to Outokumpu and the different grades

·2· · · · between rifle steel and how rifle steel is

·3· · · · usually in the low 30 Rockwell range and pistol

·4· · · · grade is something different.· We talked

·5· · · · in-depth about all the different types of steel

·6· · · · and, yeah, I told him about the army project and

·7· · · · the BQ5.· We talked in great deal about it.

·8· ·Q.· ·But when he refers to here that there's a

·9· · · · different steel if you order from Shooters

10· · · · Connection as opposed to KKM, do you know what

11· · · · he's talking about here?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

13· ·A.· ·Yeah, so he generally got his story a little

14· · · · mixed up right there because we never sold

15· · · · Shooters Connection the BQ5 ever.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) What about Project 70?

17· ·A.· ·Project 70 is what we used from day one up until

18· · · · I think the last of it was maybe 2017 to a special

19· · · · individual, but, yeah, everybody got the Project 70

20· · · · up until we swapped over to the Outokumpu.

21· ·Q.· ·In the January 9, 2020 letter that you

22· · · · published, that you wrote and allowed Shooters

23· · · · Connection to publish, you indicate in that

24· · · · letter that you use the very best type 416R BQ5

25· · · · that we discussed earlier, and you indicated

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·1· · · · however you didn't get that BQ5 until mid-2020,

·2· · · · correct?

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to form.

·4· ·A.· ·Yes, we have been over this a bunch of times,

·5· · · · but yes.

·6· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Right.· And you indicated

·7· · · · that you were anticipating getting that.· Is it

·8· · · · possible you told Mr. Vlieger that you were

·9· · · · using BQ5 in anticipation of getting it?

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

11· ·A.· ·I couldn't tell you our conversation of two years

12· · · · ago.· I just described to John the types of

13· · · · steel and why we use it and some of the projects

14· · · · that we've done, so if he got that a little

15· · · · confused, there's nothing I can do about that.

16· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) But what he tells

17· · · · Mr. Bunker here seems to be consistent with what

18· · · · you told Mr. Carter directly, that there is a

19· · · · possibility that there is a BQ5 out there, correct?

20· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

21· ·A.· ·If it's one of the sample barrels we sent to the

22· · · · military, it could have been.

23· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.

24· ·A.· ·But we had never made barrels for consumer use

25· · · · and sold to Shooters Connection in the BQ5 and

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·1· · · · we still haven't.

·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But did you tell Mr. Vlieger at this

·3· · · · point in time that if you order directly from

·4· · · · the KKM website, that you are getting what,

·5· · · · presumably the Outokumpu?

·6· ·A.· ·Yes, because that's all we were using.

·7· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And were you selling any of the Outokumpu

·8· · · · to Shooters Connection?

·9· ·A.· ·It was all Outokumpu.· That's all that they've

10· · · · gotten when we swapped over from the Project 70.

11· ·Q.· ·And when was that again?

12· ·A.· ·Long before all this started, I mean it was

13· · · · years and years ago.

14· ·Q.· ·I believe you indicated earlier that it was

15· · · · 2017.· Does that sound about right?

16· ·A.· ·The Project 70, the last of it that we used,

17· · · · most of it was going to either the Marine Corp,

18· · · · the U.S. Army or to Sam's Custom Gunworks.· All

19· · · · of those were Beretta barrels.· They weren't

20· · · · 1911 barrels.· That's what we were saving from I

21· · · · think it was 2014 up until 2017, that's what we

22· · · · were saving that Project 70 for because we had

23· · · · very little of it and the Beretta barrels is

24· · · · what it needed to be made out of because all of

25· · · · that was either 32 twist or 1-in-18 twist.· The

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·1· · · · Outokumpu couldn't make those barrels out of it

·2· · · · and do those twist rates.· It didn't work.

·3· ·Q.· ·Further in this communication between Mr. Vlieger

·4· · · · and Mr. Bunker, he indicates here to Mr. Bunker

·5· · · · that Shay never ordered direct and then he says,

·6· · · · however, this has been their standard practice

·7· · · · for years.· Do you know what Mr. Vlieger is

·8· · · · talking about here?

·9· ·A.· ·I have no idea.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to form.

11· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Did you have any

12· · · · conversations with Mr. Vlieger about KKM

13· · · · standard practice?

14· ·A.· ·I can't recall.· It was too long ago.

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Give me one second here, guys.

16· · · · · · · · ·(Off the record discussion.)

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Mr. McIntire, you

18· · · · indicated that the last batch of Project 70

19· · · · barrels were made in around 2014, is that correct?

20· ·A.· ·No, the last order of Project 70 was about 2014,

21· · · · I believe.· It's on that cert sheet that you

22· · · · kept showing.

23· ·Q.· ·Do you remember when the last batch of barrels

24· · · · made from Project 70 left KKM's possession out

25· · · · to suppliers and vendors?

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·1· ·A.· ·Boy, probably in 2017.

·2· ·Q.· ·So after sometime in 2017, if a customer called

·3· · · · up KKM to order a barrel or order a barrel

·4· · · · online, is there any way possible they could

·5· · · · have gotten the Project 70 barrel?

·6· ·A.· ·If you specifically asked for it, like if you

·7· · · · ordered a Beretta barrel and a 1-in-32 twist and

·8· · · · you were familiar with what that is, yeah, it

·9· · · · would have been Project 70.

10· ·Q.· ·What about if it was an order for a 1911?

11· ·A.· ·1911 would have been Outokumpu.

12· ·Q.· ·Okay.· So anytime after 2017 if someone called

13· · · · up and ordered online a 1911 barrel from KKM

14· · · · directly, it would have been Outokumpu, it would

15· · · · not have been Project 70?

16· ·A.· ·That's correct, yes.

17· ·Q.· ·So it sounds like any barrel that was made from

18· · · · Project 70 after 2017, if it was 1911, that

19· · · · would have been obtained through a supplier like

20· · · · Shooters Connection or Speed Shooters?

21· ·A.· ·Through some other source, yeah.· It wouldn't

22· · · · have come direct.

23· ·Q.· ·Did KKM ever manufacture any rib barrels?

24· ·A.· ·Yes, we have since day one.· It was the very

25· · · · first barrel we actually produced.

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·1· ·Q.· ·And you still produce them today?

·2· ·A.· ·We do.

·3· ·Q.· ·And in what style is the rib barrel offered?

·4· ·A.· ·There's dozens of different styles.· Everybody's

·5· · · · got their own version like the version we did

·6· · · · for Shooters Connection, which has some

·7· · · · differences compared to the original ones that

·8· · · · we produce.· Yeah, there's lots of different

·9· · · · versions of it.

10· ·Q.· ·The version that was made for Shooters Connection,

11· · · · do you know what steel that was manufactured from?

12· ·A.· ·The Outokumpu.

13· ·Q.· ·Were any of those rib barrels made for Shooters

14· · · · Connection made out of the Project 70?

15· ·A.· ·No.

16· ·Q.· ·So all of the rib barrels that were made for

17· · · · Shooters Connection were exclusively Outokumpu?

18· ·A.· ·Yep.

19· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I have no further questions

20· · · · for you, Mr. McIntire, at this point.

21· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Can we take a break for

22· · · · two minutes?

23· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Sure.· John, do you need

24· · · · longer than two?

25· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· I need zero.· You will

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·1· · · · not see me leave this chair.

·2· · · · · · · · ·(Recess 4:13 p.m. to 4:15 p.m.)

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· So I have just a few

·4· · · · questions for Mr. McIntire and I'll ask John if

·5· · · · you're not going to ask any?

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· No, no questions.· Thanks.

·7· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

·8· · · · BY MR. ROBINSON:

·9· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. McIntire, you were asked some questions

10· · · · by Mr. Yee about an event where you met

11· · · · Mr. Horowitz in Frostproof, Florida, is that

12· · · · correct?

13· ·A.· ·That's correct.

14· ·Q.· ·When was that about?

15· ·A.· ·2016.· It was called the USPSA Nine Days of

16· · · · Nationals.· It was in the fall of 2016 I believe.

17· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you were asked a series of questions

18· · · · by Mr. Yee about whether Mr. Horowitz had

19· · · · purchased KKM barrels prior to that event and I

20· · · · think you had indicated that he had firearms

21· · · · with him that had KKM barrels in them, is that

22· · · · correct?

23· ·A.· ·That's correct.

24· ·Q.· ·I'm going to share my screen with you and show

25· · · · you some documents.· Okay.· The first document

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·1· · · · I'm showing to you is an invoice, a Shooters

·2· · · · Connection invoice dated August 2, 2016 and it

·3· · · · says, "Sold to Akai Custom Guns."· Do you see on

·4· · · · this invoice that a KKM 355 caliber bull barrel

·5· · · · threaded 5.4 inch barrel was sold to Akai Custom

·6· · · · Guns in August of 2016?

·7· ·A.· ·I do.

·8· ·Q.· ·And did that pre-date the event in Frostproof,

·9· · · · Florida?

10· ·A.· ·Looks like it.

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Kevin, can you go back real

12· · · · quick?

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· I just closed the document,

14· · · · but I'll e-mail it to you when I'm done.

15· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Robinson) I'm going to share

16· · · · screen and show you another document and this

17· · · · document is dated September 13, 2016.· It appears

18· · · · to be another invoice from Shooters Connection

19· · · · to Akai Custom Guns.· Do you see on here that

20· · · · Akai Custom Guns purchased a KKM 355 caliber

21· · · · bushing barrel six-inch on September 13, 2016?

22· ·A.· ·Yep.

23· ·Q.· ·Was that before the event in Frostproof, Florida?

24· ·A.· ·I believe so.

25· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to share my screen and show

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·1· · · · another document to you.· This is an invoice

·2· · · · that appears to be from Shooters Connection to

·3· · · · Akai Custom Guns dated June 30, 2016.· Do you

·4· · · · see on this invoice the sale of a KKM 355

·5· · · · caliber bull barrel five-inch to Akai Custom

·6· · · · Guns in June of 2016?

·7· ·A.· ·Yep, I see that.

·8· ·Q.· ·Did that pre-date the event where you met

·9· · · · Mr. Horowitz in Frostproof, Florida?

10· ·A.· ·Yep.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to share my screen with you and

12· · · · show you another document.· This document is, it

13· · · · appears to be an invoice from Shooters Connection

14· · · · shipped to Akai Custom Guns, but sold to a

15· · · · gentleman named Chris Kozell dated August 10, 2016

16· · · · for a KKM 355 caliber bull barrel threaded 5.4

17· · · · inch barrel.· Was that before or after the event

18· · · · in Frostproof, Florida?

19· ·A.· ·Appears to be before.

20· ·Q.· ·And I'm going to share my screen with you and

21· · · · show you one last document.· This appears to be

22· · · · a Shooters Connection invoice to Akai Custom

23· · · · Guns dated October 13, 2011.· If I go down to

24· · · · page three of this document, it shows the sale

25· · · · of a KKM 40 caliber bull barrel five-inch to

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·1· · · · Akai Custom Guns.· Now, this invoice from 2011,

·2· · · · was that before or after the 2016 event in

·3· · · · Frostproof, Florida?

·4· ·A.· ·2011, that's way before.

·5· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have any conversations with

·6· · · · Mr. Horowitz relating to KKM barrels prior to

·7· · · · the event in Frostproof, Florida?

·8· ·A.· ·We talked about his guns just a little bit and

·9· · · · he had a lot of praise for our barrels and loved

10· · · · them.· I remember we talked about that.

11· ·Q.· ·Okay.· The invoices we just looked at, those

12· · · · invoices support your conclusion that the firearms

13· · · · that Mr. Horowitz had with him at the event in

14· · · · Frostproof had KKM barrels in them, did they not?

15· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Object to form.

16· ·A.· ·Yeah.

17· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Robinson) The 416 restricted

18· · · · steel, is 416 restricted steel a type of 416 steel?

19· ·A.· ·The 416 restricted is still within the type of

20· · · · 416.· It's just restricted on certain properties.

21· ·Q.· ·So 416 is a broader category?

22· ·A.· ·Yes.

23· ·Q.· ·Okay.· And 416 restricted falls within the

24· · · · broader category of 416?

25· ·A.· ·It does, yep.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Those are all the

·2· · · · questions I have for you.· Thank you.

·3· · · · · · · · · · · · RE-EXAMINATION

·4· · · · BY MR. YEE:

·5· ·Q.· ·Mr. McIntire, I have a few follow-up questions

·6· · · · regarding the last couple questions from

·7· · · · Mr. Robinson regarding the 416 restricted and

·8· · · · whether it falls within the grade of 416 and you

·9· · · · said that it was.· By whose standard?· Is that

10· · · · ASTM?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

12· ·A.· ·ASTM defines the 416 grade and our restrictions

13· · · · fall within that grade.

14· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· But as I

15· · · · understand Mr. Robinson's question, he asked you

16· · · · to testify as to whether 416 restricted falls

17· · · · within the 416 grade and you said that it does,

18· · · · but by what measure?· Just because of the 416

19· · · · specifications?

20· ·A.· ·Not quite fall into.· It falls within the ASTM

21· · · · standards for 416.· It's within it.

22· ·Q.· ·I guess what I'm getting at is is there a certain

23· · · · publication or standard that allows a manufacturer

24· · · · to classify a certain steel as restricted

25· · · · because it falls within the ASTM 416 standard?

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·1· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form,

·2· · · · mischaracterizing his testimony.

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· I'm not mischaracterizing.

·4· · · · I'm just asking if there is such a thing.

·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

·6· ·A.· ·There is no agency out there that will define

·7· · · · what 416 restricted is.· It's the manufacturer

·8· · · · comes up with their restrictions and they adhere

·9· · · · to it.

10· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) So the 416 restricted

11· · · · is your term, KKM's term?

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Object to the form.

13· ·A.· ·Well, we have our own restrictions.· It's not

14· · · · specifically our term.· Our restrictions are

15· · · · what they are and we provided them to you, so

16· · · · it's too broad of a term when you say 416

17· · · · restricted because everybody else has something

18· · · · slightly different.

19· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Okay.· I forgot to ask

20· · · · you earlier, but do you know what the difference

21· · · · between a Schuemann and SV barrel is?

22· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection, falls outside

23· · · · the scope of cross-examination.

24· ·Q.· ·(Continuing, by Mr. Yee) Go ahead and answer if

25· · · · you can.

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·1· ·A.· ·I know the differences between them.

·2· ·Q.· ·What are those differences?

·3· ·A.· ·There's some dimensional differences when you

·4· · · · blueprint one of their barrels, either brand,

·5· · · · everybody has their own idea of where they want

·6· · · · to bracket their tolerances and bore dimensions,

·7· · · · outside dimensions, even types of steel.· SV

·8· · · · currently uses a Chromoly, where they used to

·9· · · · use a stainless steel.· Schuemann has bounced

10· · · · around when the company's been sold to lots of

11· · · · different types.· In the old days we were the

12· · · · ones who were actually producing the rifle

13· · · · blanks for Schuemann and he would feed it into

14· · · · his machine, so it was technically our steel.

15· · · · It was the Project 70+ steel and, yeah, it's

16· · · · kind of bounced around as everyone's kind of

17· · · · sold and bought and sold and bought that company

18· · · · again and again.

19· ·Q.· ·You mentioned earlier that Mr. Schuemann

20· · · · retired, correct?

21· ·A.· ·He did, yeah.· Will Schuemann was my dad's best

22· · · · friend back in the eighties and nineties.· His

23· · · · shop was right next to ours, so we collaborated

24· · · · back and forth quite a bit.· We did all of his

25· · · · sales and inventory and final prep on his

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·1· · · · barrels.· We produced his rifle blanks for a

·2· · · · number of years until he went to a different

·3· · · · style of rifling, but, yeah, there was a very

·4· · · · big connection between Will Schuemann and my dad.

·5· ·Q.· ·Are there any differences in the back of the rib

·6· · · · between the Schuemann and the SV, if you know?

·7· ·A.· ·Schuemann barrels generally have a big radius in

·8· · · · the back.· It's like, what is that, a .437

·9· · · · radius in the back, and then as you come down to

10· · · · the bottom of that radius on the rib, it has a

11· · · · very shallow radius as it transitions into the

12· · · · actual barrel diameter.· Usually sometimes that

13· · · · could be as small as 25/1000ths or less.· SV has

14· · · · more of a squared off rib and a very large

15· · · · transitional radius between the two, about

16· · · · 60/1000ths or so.· It's quite big.

17· ·Q.· ·The barrels that KKM manufactures, is it more

18· · · · closely related to an SV style or Schuemann?

19· ·A.· ·It's a hybrid between the two.· It has the

20· · · · squared back end which is what John Schue's

21· · · · connection requested.· Most people request that

22· · · · style, so it's squared off with quarter inch

23· · · · radiuses on the corners and then some of the

24· · · · very first prototypes that were made had big SV

25· · · · 60 thou radius on the transition, and then that

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·1· · · · was switched over to be more of a 30 thou, so

·2· · · · it's kind of in between Schuemann and SV.

·3· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· All right.· I have no further

·4· · · · questions for you, Mr. McIntire.

·5· ·A.· ·Thank you.

·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Kevin?

·7· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Nothing else.

·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· John?

·9· · · · · · · · ·MR. BENFORD:· None for me.

10· · · · · · · · ·MR. YEE:· Either Nick?

11· · · · · · · · ·MR. MARI:· Nothing from this Nick.

12· · · · · · · · ·MR. CARDAMONE:· Or this Nick.

13· · · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· We'll read and sign.

14· · · · · · · · ·(Deposition concluded at 4:30 p.m.)

15

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·1· ·STATE OF MICHIGAN)

· · · · · · · · · · · )

·2· ·COUNTY OF MACOMB )

·3· · · · I, Ann L. Bacon, a Notary Public in and for

·4· ·the above county and state, do hereby certify

·5· ·that the witness, whose attached deposition was

·6· ·taken before me in the entitled cause on the

·7· ·date, time and place hereinbefore set forth, was

·8· ·first duly sworn to testify to the truth, and

·9· ·nothing but the truth; that the testimony

10· ·contained in said deposition was reduced to

11· ·writing in the presence of said witness by means

12· ·of stenography; that said testimony was

13· ·thereafter reduced to written form by mechanical

14· ·means; and that the deposition is, to the best

15· ·of my knowledge and belief, a true and correct

16· ·transcript of my stenographic notes so taken.

17· · · · I further certify that the signature to and

18· ·the reading of the deposition by the witness was

19· ·waived by counsel for the respective parties

20· ·hereto; also, that I am not of counsel to either

21· ·party or interested in the event of this case.

22· · · · ·_________________________________________

23· · · · ·Ann L. Bacon, Notary Public, Macomb County

24· · · · ·Acting in Macomb County

25· · · · ·My commission expires:· 6/29/23

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