UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

 CASE NO.: 1:20-cv-22583-UNGARO

 JARED McGRIFF, OCTAVIA YEARWOOD,

 NAIOMY GUERRERO, and

 RODNEY JACKSON,

 Plaintiff,

 vs.

 CITY OF MIAMI BEACH,

 Defendant.

 _________________________/

 DEPOSITION OF THOMAS FOLLAND, PH.D.

 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF

 APRIL 26, 2021

 1:00 P.M. TO 5:22 P.M.

 ALL PARTIES APPEARED REMOTELY

 PURSUANT TO

 FLORIDA SUPREME COURT ORDER AOSC20-23

 REPORTED BY:

 DANIELLE J. BRAELOW, COURT REPORTER

 NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA

Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 1 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 2 of 140

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:

3 ALAN LEVINE, ESQUIRE

 80-02 KEW GARDENS ROAD

4 SUITE 307

 KEW GARDENS, NY 11415

5 NEW YORK BAR NO. 1373554

 (917) 806-1814

6 LEVINE1955@GMAIL.COM

 (REMOTELY VIA ZOOM)

7

 MATTHEW MCELLIGOTT, ESQUIRE

8 VALIENTE, CAROLLO & MCELLIGOTT, PLLC

 1111 BRICKEL AVENUE 1550

9 MIAMI, FL 33131

 786-361-6887

10 MATTHEW@VALIENTELAW.COM

 (REMOTELY VIA ZOOM)

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 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:

12

 ROBERT FRANKLIN ROSENWALD JR., ESQUIRE

13 CITY OF MIAMI BEACH CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 170 NW 97TH ST

14 MIAMI SHORES, FL 33150-1735

 305-673-7470

15 ROBERTROSENWALD@MIAMIBEACHFL.GOV

 (REMOTELY VIA ZOOM)

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Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 2 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 3 of 140

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION

2 WITNESS: THOMAS FOLLAND, PH.D.

 PAGE

3 DIRECT EXAMINATION

 By Alan Levine, Esquire 5

4

 CROSS EXAMINATION

5 By Robert F. Rosenwald Jr., Esquire 128

6 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

 By Alan Levine, Esquire 130

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Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 3 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 4 of 140

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE

3 Plaintiffs'

4 1 Deponent's Report 6

5 2 Press Release

6 3 Public Art

7 4 Email

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Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 4 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 38 of 140

1 that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Are there more, the same, or fewer such

4 places, that is all these both traditional and non5 traditional places for displaying art, that is museums,

6 galleries, pop ups, street art, in which the private,

7 personal, aesthetic of the artist predominates or

8 prevails?

9 A Well, in the case of a government sponsorship

10 of a private work of art as whoever is being defined, it

11 still exists as a government sponsored, government

12 message work of arts.

13 Q Yeah. I'm sorry. My question may not have

14 been clear. I'm simply talking about now -- about how

15 the public views art, and you've said government speech

16 conveying a government point of view, you say, is a

17 foundational idea of the visual arts. That is part of

18 your opinion?

19 A That is correct.

20 Q What I'm trying to understand is whether or

21 not the idea of personal, private, aesthetic or

22 political expression is also a foundational idea of the

23 visual arts, at least in the 19th and 20th century?

24 A I wouldn't say it's foundational because it

25 co-exists with other forms of art. It was a -- again,

Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 5 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 39 of 140

1 as I said earlier, an idea or a theory of belief, but it

2 is a belief that or a theory that often, once it brushes

3 up against the real world, it doesn't really pan out in

4 the way that we often think it does.

5 There's a lot of general, I think,

6 misconceptions about the nature of art and it is one of

7 them. It's really a myth more than a reality.

8 Q Well, first of all, I want to take

9 foundational out of my question because foundational may

10 mean that it rests on a foundation and you have said

11 that government speech rests on a several millennia old

12 foundation that individual art does not rest on, right,

13 something to that effect?

14 A Correct.

15 Q Okay. But I'm now going back to this phrase

16 that you used, "The concept of art as a mode of

17 personal, private, aesthetic or political experience."

18 It exists, doesn't it?

19 A It exists as an idea --

20 Q Okay.

21 A --if not a reality.

22 Q So, that when you say it doesn't exist as a

23 reality, there is no art that expresses personal,

24 private, aesthetic or political ideas or expression?

25 A Not entirely. Art is part of a larger

Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 6 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 40 of 140

1 dialogue with not only its own history, but with the

2 context it's placed into with other works of art. It

3 never -- again, this is the -- this is the -- this myth

4 of autonomy that emerged in the 20th century -- the 19th

5 century, I'm sorry, that really never bore a fruit.

6 This is the topic of subtle art historical

7 works, dismantling this myth of the timeless work of art

8 that exist as some sort of absolute condition of freedom

9 --

10 Q Well --

11 A --and personal expression.

12 Q If I understand you correctly, you seem to be

13 saying that at least in art history, there is no clear

14 distinction between government art and private art. Is

15 that what you're saying?

16 A I'm not saying that there's no clear

17 distinction. What I'm saying is that that distinction

18 is not as short of as legal discourse may like it to be,

19 it's much more of a fluid conditional state.

20 As -- again, as I said earlier, I think,

21 artworks that we might describe as private expression,

22 when they are appropriated by government agencies, they

23 are then appropriated as forms of -- they become

24 government speech. So,--

25 Q -- I'm sorry, finish.

Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 7 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 41 of 140

1 A So, that just goes back to the point I'm

2 making about the fluid nature of these categories, but

3 my own work as a scholar in art history has really been

4 to argue that that idea does not exist.

5 Q That idea of --

6 A If artwork produced out of some sort of

7 instance of pure, personal expression. It does not

8 exist.

9 In my work, and my research, my scholarship, I

10 always describe art as a product of these larger

11 factors. And there is a myth of autonomy that exists in

12 modernism that is -- just that it is a myth.

13 Q Well, the -- I'm a lawyer, not an art

14 historian, but that makes sense to me that all art is

15 influenced by the world in which its creator exists and

16 that may be cultural forces and artistic forces, and

17 political and governmental forces. That's part of what

18 you're saying, right?

19 A Correct.

20 Q But I'm talking about something else. You

21 said before that sometimes private art was -- forget the

22 word that you used, but taken for or by government for

23 its own purposes. You said something like --

24 A Correct.

25 Q Okay. I--

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Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 137 of 140

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

2 STATE OF FLORIDA

3 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH

4

5 I, Danielle J. Braelow, Court Reporter and Notary

6 Public for the State of Florida, do hereby certify that

7 I was authorized to and did digitally report and

8 transcribe the foregoing proceedings, and that the

9 transcript is a true and complete record of my notes.

10

 I further certify that I am not a relative,

11

 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,

12

 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'

13

 attorneys or counsel connected with the action, nor am

14

 I financially interested in the action.

15

16 Witness my hand this 3rd day of May, 2021.

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21 ____________________________________

 DANIELLE J. BRAELOW, COURT REPORTER

22 NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA

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Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 9 of 10
Folland, Thomas Ph.D. 04-26-2021 Page 138 of 140

1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH

2 STATE OF FLORIDA

3 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH

4

5 I, Danielle J. Braelow, the undersigned authority,

6 certify that Thomas Folland, Ph.D., appeared before me

7 remotely pursuant to Florida Supreme Court Order

8 AOSC20-23 and was duly sworn on the 26th day of April,

9 2021.

10

 Witness my hand this 3rd day of May, 2021.

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15 ____________________________________

 DANIELLE J. BRAELOW, COURT REPORTER

16 NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA

 Commission No.: GG 926016

17 Commission Exp: 10/24/2023

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Case 1:20-cv-22583-UU Document 54-2 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/20/2021 Page 10 of 10