U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402–0001

20–542 PDF 2005

BUILDING THE INFORMATION ANALYSIS

CAPABILITY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF

HOMELAND SECURITY

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 

INFORMATION 

SHARING, AND TERRORISM RISK 

ASSESSMENT

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

FEBRUARY 16, 2005

Serial No. 109–2

Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house
COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY 

CHRISTOPHER COX, California, Chairman 

DON YOUNG, Alaska 

LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas 

CURT WELDON, Pennsylvania, Vice Chairman 

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut 

PETER T. KING, New York 

JOHN LINDER, Georgia 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana 

TOM DAVIS, Virginia 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada 

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut 

MIKE ROGERS, Alabama 

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico 

KATHERINE HARRIS, Florida 

BOBBY JINDAL, Louisiana 

DAVE G. REICHERT, Washington 

MICHAEL MCCAUL, Texas 

CHARLIE DENT, Pennsylvania 

BENNIE G. THOMPSON, Mississippi 

LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts 

NORMAN D. DICKS, Washington 

JANE HARMAN, California 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon 

NITA M. LOWEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON-LEE, Texas 

BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey 

DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, U.S. Virgin Islands 

BOB ETHERIDGE, North Carolina 

JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island 

KENDRICK B. MEEK, Florida 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, INFORMATION SHARING, AND TERRORISM RISK

ASSESSMENT

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut, Chairman 

CURT WELDON, Pennsylvania 

PETER T. KING, New York 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

JIM GIBBONS, Nevada 

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico 

BOBBY JINDAL, Louisiana 

DAVE G. REICHERT, Washington 

CHARLIE DENT, Pennsylvania 

CHRISTOPHER COX, California (Ex Officio) 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

JANE HARMAN, California 

NITA M. LOWEY, New York 

SHEILA JACKSON-LEE, Texas 

BOB ETHERIDGE, North Carolina 

JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island 

KENDRICK B. MEEK, Florida 

BENNIE G. THOMPSON, Mississippi (Ex 

Officio)

(II) 
(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page 

STATEMENTS

The Honorable Rob Simmons, a Representative in Congress From the State 

of Connecticut, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information 

Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment .......................................................... 1

The Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress From the State 

of California, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment .................................................. 2

The Honorable Christopher Cox, a Representative in Congress From the 

State of California, and Chairman, Committee on Homeland Security .......... 4

The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson, a Representative in Congress From 

the State of Mississippi, and Ranking Member, Committee on Homeland 

Committee ............................................................................................................. 5

The Honorable Charlie Dent, a Representative in Congress From the State 

of Pennsylvania .................................................................................................... 19

The Honorable Bob Etheridge, a Representative in Congress From the State 

of North Carolina ................................................................................................. 17 

The Honorable Peter T. King, a Representative in Congress From the State 

of New York .......................................................................................................... 16

The Honorable James R. Langevin, a Representative in Congress From the 

State of Rhode Island ........................................................................................... 20

The Honorable Sheila Jackson-Lee, a Representative in Congress From the 

State of Texas ....................................................................................................... 25

The Honorable Daniel E. Lungren, a Representative in Congress From the 

State of California ................................................................................................ 22

WITNESS 

Lieutenant General Pat Hughes, (Retired), Acting Under Secretary, Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection, Department of Homeland 

Security 

Oral Statement ..................................................................................................... 6

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 7

APPENDIX 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Questions and Responses submitted by the Honorable Bennie Thompson ........ 31

(1)

BUILDING THE INFORMATION ANALYSIS 

CAPABILITY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF 

HOMELAND SECURITY 

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 2005

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, INFORMATION

SHARING, AND TERRORISM RISK ASSESSMENT, 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY, 

Washington, DC 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:06 p.m., in Room 

1334, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Rob Simmons [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Simmons, King, Lungren, Pearce, Dent, 

Cox, Lofgren, Etheridge, Langevin, Thompson, and Jackson-Lee. 

Mr. SIMMONS. [Presiding.] The Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment will come to 

order. 

The subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on how the 

fiscal year 2006 Department of Homeland Security budget request 

helps further the information sharing and analysis capabilities of 

the Department of Homeland Security. I am told that we only have 

this room until 4:00 p.m., 1600 hours, today, so I will be short in 

my comments, and then we will try to extend to all members the 

opportunity to ask questions, but also remind them that the room 

will be made available to another group at 4 p.m. 

I would like to recognize myself for an opening statement. As we 

begin this first hearing of the Committee on Homeland Security, 

Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing and Terrorism 

Risk Assessment, I would like to start by thanking the Chairman, 

Chairman Cox, for his leadership in helping to establish the full 

committee as a standing committee of Congress. I look forward 

very much to working with my colleague, Representative Lofgren 

from California, as the Ranking Member of the subcommittee, and 

also the Ranking Member of the full committee, Representative 

Thompson, who is with us here today. 

I represent the Second District of Connecticut. On September 11, 

we lost 12 friends and neighbors. On September 11, we all failed 

in our constitutional responsibility to provide for the common defense. This subcommittee has a vital role to build our capabilities 

in intelligence, information sharing and risk assessment to help 

prevent another terrorist attack. 

I would also like to make a second point. I believe in bipartisanship when it comes to national security and homeland security. 
2

When I joined the U.S. Army almost 40 years ago, I put these dog 

tags around my neck. I wore them until I retired from the U.S. 

Army Reserve in the year 2003. These dog tags have my name on 

them, my serial number, my blood type and my religion, but there 

is no mention of party affiliation. During my years of public service, I have tried to be bipartisan. I look forward to conducting the 

work of this subcommittee in a bipartisan fashion. 

Information analysis and warning is perhaps the most important 

capability of the Department of Homeland Security. Intelligence 

must drive our protection decisions, resource allocations, and homeland security priorities. Since its inception in March 2003, the Department of Homeland Security has worked to construct a robust 

analytical capability and has dedicated itself to fulfilling the broad 

statutory functions outlined in the Homeland Security Act. The 

committee is encouraged by the progress to date, but there is a lot 

more work to do, and the responsibility for that work falls on us. 

General Hughes, you have some challenges and opportunities 

ahead of you. The Intelligence Reform and Terrorist Prevention Act 

of 2004 created a Director of National Intelligence and a National 

Counterterrorism Center. This new reality will require the office of 

Information Analysis of DHS to adjust to a new operating environment. IA must take this opportunity to continue to build on its initial progress and construct a fully functioning and operational Intelligence Community component, while ensuring that DHS maintains the vital link to its state and local partners, and also ensuring that as we work to protect the freedom and security of our 

homeland, we also continue to protect and preserve our civil liberties. 

The partnerships that you have engaged in have led to central 

communications links between the federal government and state, 

local, tribal and private sector officials. These links help to ensure 

that the men and women on the frontlines in the fight to protect 

our homeland have the essential information they need to help prevent another terrorist attack. I hope your testimony today will address how these links and partnerships are being strengthened and 

refined to help keep America safe. 

I welcome you, General Hughes, to the subcommittee today. I 

also want to thank you, as somebody who has also worn the uniform for, in my case, 37 years, 7 months, and 24 days, but who is 

counting. When you are having a good time, you do not count it all 

up. But I want to thank you for your very distinguished service to 

our country. I look forward to hearing your testimony. 

I would like now to recognizing the Ranking Minority Member of 

the subcommittee for any statement that she may wish to make. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for calling 

this hearing to discuss the proposed fiscal year 2006 budget, building the information analysis capability of the Department of Homeland Security. 

Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working with you. I hope to be 

able to have a good, productive and professional relationship on 

this subcommittee, as I enjoyed in the last Congress with Chairman Thornberry. That was a very rewarding experience for me, 

and I think for Chairman Thornberry. 
3

We worked together as a team. We developed our hearings together. We decided our witnesses together. We wrote bills together. 

In the end of the Congress, we issued not a majority report and a 

minority report, but we issued one report from our committee. I 

hope that we will have that same level of success in standing up 

for our country and making sure that we are facing. 

General Hughes, I welcome you and I look forward to hearing 

your testimony, as we work with you as we seek to empower the 

critical exchange of information within the Department of Homeland Security. You have a difficult task, and I hope that the subcommittee will be able to help you as you work to enhance the department’s capability to collect, aggregate, analyze and share information. 

I understand your office is responsible for four specific tasks: 

analyzing and mapping terrorism threat intelligence to 

vulnerabilities in the nation’s critical infrastructure; sharing information with state and local governments and at times with the private sector on the public information concerning terrorist threats; 

meeting operational efforts regarding the homeland security advisory system; and providing intelligence analysis to senior DHS officials. 

As you may know, I served for 14 years on the Board of Supervisors for in Santa Clara County, so I have a very keen interest in 

how information is shared with local governments so that they can 

take appropriate action. I am also very interested in how we have 

assessed what is vulnerable so that we can effectively map the 

threats that we discover. 

Finally, I do not want to be a nag, but I am going to raise it anyhow. This is your first meeting before us and so I am going to cut 

a little slack to the department, but there is a Committee Rule, 

rule 11(j), that requires witnesses to have their statements to the 

committee in advance of the actual hearing. It is 48 hours that testimony is to be submitted, and we received your testimony just 4 

hours ago. 

So this is not a senseless rule. I like to read the testimony before 

I come to a hearing and have the staff analyze it, and receiving it 

4 hours in advance of a hearing just does not permit that. If we 

are going to do our job well, you need to help us by complying with 

that rule. So I hope I will never have to refer to that rule again, 

and I look forward to your testimony. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMMONS. Thank you. That is a good and a useful comment 

to make. 

I would now like to recognize the Chairman of the full committee, the gentleman from California, Mr. Cox, who I just mentioned a few minutes ago has played an historic role, a truly historic role, in bringing about a full Committee on Homeland Security. 

I believe the reorganization of our government over the last several years is the largest reorganization we have encountered since 

World War II, with the National Security Act of 1947 and the creation of the Department of Defense. With that massive reorganization goes a requirement to oversee the Department of Homeland 

Security. 
4

Chairman Cox has been a critical component in making sure that 

the Congress lives up to its obligations in these difficult, historic 

times. 

Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. COX. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to begin by welcoming Chairman Simmons to this subcommittee. We are picking up the work that was carried on in the 

Select Committee on Homeland Security during the last Congress. 

I do not think there is any question that by background, Congressman Simmons is well suited to chair this subcommittee. I do not 

think there is any question either that Zoe Lofgren of California is 

very able and equipped to serve as our Ranking Member on this 

subcommittee. 

General Hughes, as you know, we have been on this committee, 

at least as it was constituted in the last Congress, aggressive supporters of your responsibilities in the Department of Homeland Security. Since the last Congress, we have enacted legislation creating a national Intelligence Director and creating the NCTC that 

will have profound impacts on the Information Analysis responsibility within the Department of Homeland Security. 

I note that this is not a packed hearing room and it is in some 

senses ironic because I do not believe we will ever focus on anything that is more central to the government’s responsibility in protecting Americans from terrorism than what we are going to be 

talking about today. So to those of you are here, you are involved 

in a very important undertaking on behalf of our country. 

The Homeland Security Act of 2002 gave the department a new 

overriding counterterrorist mission that had not previously been 

the job of any part of the federal government. It sought to enable 

to department’s success in this new mission through a Directorate 

of Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection. The information analysis portion of that directorate is the intelligence piece 

overview with prevention, particularly when it comes to the eventual threat of terrorists armed with nuclear weapons, not dirty 

bombs, but real nuclear weapons, or terrorists armed with bioweapons, particularly bio-engineered weapons that are designed to 

be resistant to antidotes and vaccines that we might have stockpiled. There can be no overstating the importance of prevention. 

That is what this is all about. 

During the Cold War, I think we understood that dealing with 

the response and recovery from a nuclear exchange was not plan 

A, plan B, or plan C. We were very much focused on avoiding that 

nuclear exchange. Likewise, the prospect that terrorists might 

apply weapons of mass destruction now or in the future has to 

cause us to focus enormous attention on prevention. That is what 

we hope, notwithstanding the passage of the 9/11 Commission Recommendations Implementation Act, we can continue to do under 

the legal mandate of the Homeland Security Act. 

The memorandum of understanding on information sharing of 

March 2003 was a truly unprecedented undertaking between the 

Attorney General, the Director of Central Intelligence, and the Secretary of Homeland Security. Its purpose is to move information 

along and through these three communities free of the longstanding constraints that existed prior. There are some signs that 
5

are less encouraging or convey a mixed message about our potential to achieve what we envisioned when we wrote the Homeland 

Security Act and in passing the law in 2002, and when this memorandum was agreed to in 2003. 

I hope today, General Hughes, that we have the opportunity to 

understand from you exactly where we are headed and whether we 

have the resources to get there. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I thank you for your comments. 

Now, the Chair would like to recognize the Ranking Member of 

the full committee, Mr. Thompson from Mississippi. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am appreciative of 

you calling this hearing at this time. Even though we cannot discuss the numbers for this department in open session, I think there 

are some issues that we need to get on the table real quick for the 

sake of the public. 

I guess about 2 months ago, Ms. Lofgren and I had an opportunity to look at the vulnerabilities of our infrastructure by state. 

We were somewhat dismayed, Mr. Chairman, at how inconsistent 

that list was by state, and we are really concerned that somehow 

we have to have some standardization associated with that infrastructure list. As I understand it, there are some 85,000 

vulnerabilities identified from miniature golf courses to shopping 

centers and what have you. But I am concerned about it, and I 

want to make sure that we address it this year so that we all, as 

members of this committee, can feel comfortable that those critical 

infrastructures in our districts clearly are being identified so that 

they can be protected. 

In addition to that, I am concerned about this information sharing across the board, whether or not we have satisfactorily changed 

the culture of the department so that they are actually talking to 

each other. We hear comments all along about departments being 

territorial with their information, and if we are indeed protecting 

the homeland. We ought to make sure that all those agencies involved in protecting us are communicating with each other. So I 

look forward to this hearing and many more around this subject. 

Obviously, I look forward to your testimony, General Hughes. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I thank the gentleman for his comments. As somebody who worked for the CIA for 10 years, and then finally in military intelligence for over 30 years, sharing information is a hugely 

important issue. Security is important, but a perfectly secure piece 

of information which is not disseminated is of no use. So what we 

have to do is come up with a balancing act. We have to balance 

the needs for security with the needs for sharing so that we can 

better protect the American homeland. So that is a very good point. 

General Hughes, thank you again for coming before the subcommittee today. I will apologize to you in advance. I will have to 

vacate myself from the chair in a few moments to meet with the 

Secretary of the Navy in a prior commitment. I trust that our distinguished full committee Chairman will be able to carry on in my 

absence. I will be back as soon as possible. Thank you for being 

here today, and we look forward to hearing your testimony.
6

STATEMENT OF LIEUTENANT GENERAL PATRICK HUGHES 

(RETIRED), ACTING UNDER SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION 

ANALYSIS, AND INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION, AND ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION ANALYSIS 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you very much. I am glad to 

be here today, too. I may have been the victim of a biological attack 

before coming here. I am a little ill. 

Mr. SIMMONS. Spread it around. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I am trying not to. I hope you will 

forgive me if I have to cough or blow my nose or something. My 

apologies. 

I liked your opening comments very much. I, too, have worn a 

set of dog tags around for a long time, and have the same frame 

of reference. I note that this is quite different, however. I did not 

realize, I don’t think, before I came to the Department of Homeland 

Security how different it is to come into my office in the morning 

and find myself examining a map of the United States and operating in the construct of our national values and civil liberties and 

rights of American citizens, as compared to the military application 

of force in an overseas environment. It is quite interesting to me, 

and has caused me to have to shift to some degree my mind set. 

I think I would like to apologize to the Congresswoman for the 

delay in our testimony getting here. I would merely say we did submit it on time, but the clearance process did not respond. We will 

do our best, though, and your point is not only well taken, but understood. So thank you very much. 

I believe from your comments and Ms. Lofgren’s comments and 

others that I have to clear the air here. Otherwise, I will proceed 

in this hearing under false pretenses. My last day on this job will 

be March 15. You are speaking to someone who will not be carrying 

out for the most part many of the hopes and dreams that you have 

as a federal official, but in my future I will continue to support the 

Department of Homeland Security, and I will do everything I can 

to support the government in the future. I would just like you to 

know that, because it sounded like in your comments you did not 

know that, and you expected me to be continuing in this job. I hope 

that is not too much of a surprise to you. 

Mr. SIMMONS. Well, you are on the hot seat right now, so let’s 

just keep you there until you disappear. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. That is fine. I am not trying to 

avoid anything. I merely want you to know my tenure here is relatively short. I would be glad to answer questions about that, if you 

would like me to include any ideas I might have about my replacement. 

The last comment I would like to make to you all is that I have 

lived through the last year and a few months with you. I have 

come before you on a few previous occasions formally and several 

times informally. I have appreciated every opportunity I have had 

to talk with you and interact with you. I can look you directly in 

the eye and tell you that we have made progress. We have made 

a lot of progress. In some cases, it is not smooth or very attractive, 

but it is real. We are continuing that progress. The dedication and 

devotion of the people who are carrying out the work of the Depart-
7

ment of Homeland Security, if you have that in your mind, you can 

never be in doubt. 

We do require guidance and direction and we do require measuring and rating at times, and we do require a steward and admonition and wisdom from others. But the heart, the spirit, the devotion and the dedication to duty is present in all of those who serve 

in this department. 

Thank you very much. I will be happy to answer questions you 

ask. 

[The statement of Lieutenant General Hughes follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF PATRICK M. HUGHES 

Good morning Chairman Simmons, Congresswoman Lofgren and distinguished 

Members of the Committee. It is a pleasure to appear before you today to discuss 

the Information Analysis (IA) capability of the Department of Homeland Security 

(DHS). This time of year marks the two-year anniversary of the actual ‘‘stand up’’ 

of the Department. We have really been able to support the intelligence and information needs of the Department for about 13 months. As we transition much of the 

senior leadership of the Department and as we anticipate the arrival of our new 

Secretary, we clearly intend to work to improve our capabilities, but it is important 

to acknowledge the tremendous efforts of the many individuals who have worked 

tirelessly to bring together a functional and effective intelligence support organization. I want to specifically mention the extraordinary men and women of the Information Analysis and Information Protection Directorate (IAIP) with whom I am so 

proud to have served. These superb professionals, laboring often in the background, 

are focused on the business of the Department and the Nation because they are 100 

percent committed to our mission and our Nation’s security. Judging from the feedback I have personally received, and according to my professional judgment, we—

they—are making a difference with our effort to provide accurate, timely, actionable, 

and cogent information to the customers we serve. 

It is also important to recognize the impressive strides made in the area of information sharing, collaboration and cooperation at the Federal level. We have worked 

hard to develop more robust and deliberate interaction with our Federal partners, 

particularly with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Our joint efforts with the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), our relationships with DOD and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and other key departments, such as Justice, State, 

and Energy, have greatly advanced our collective capabilities and relationships. Our 

current information sharing and collaboration environment within the government 

is far superior to that which existed before the establishment of DHS and has notably improved during the past year. We look forward to the advent of the Director 

of National Intelligence and continuing progress throughout the intelligence community. 

Our efforts to build a DHS intelligence capability are oriented around three overarching imperatives. These are: building and expanding capacity within the Department; furthering our coordination and liaison efforts with all of our stakeholders, 

domestic and foreign, government and non-government; and, creating and distributing the work products that will ensure we all have the right information, at the 

right time, in the right way. . . to protect and preserve. In short, we are doing our 

job supporting the Department of Homeland Security and in my view doing it well. 

As we evaluate and assess the roles and mission of the Office of Information Analysis (IA), I believe we must acknowledge IA’s role within the broader construct of 

DHS. IA should be considered the Office of Intelligence for the Department. This 

essential function will include building out the intelligence infrastructure for DHS 

Headquarters and ensuring the establishment of common Intelligence Community 

(IC) standards that apply to the ‘‘intelligence elements’’ of the ‘‘components’’ of DHS. 

The 9/11 Commission Report specifically cited the continuing need to assimilate and 

analyze information from DHS’ own components. IA needs to better integrate, coordinate, correlate and fuse these activities and the intelligence information they 

produce, in partnership with all component intelligence elements. IA, acting as the 

Departmental intelligence office, is developing a plan for the integration and collective application of all DHS component intelligence organizations in a way that will 

achieve greater synergy in this mission area. IA is and will continue to develop as 

the Departmental intelligence support element, while continuing to pursue its statutory obligations under the Homeland Security Act. As you know, IA is a part of the 

Intelligence Community and its funding is provided by the Intelligence Authoriza-
8

tion Act, the specifics of which are classified. While I cannot go into classified specifics in this open forum, I am more than ready to discuss IA’s budget with you in 

an appropriately classified session at your convenience. 

We have a dynamic vision of how intelligence and information will be analyzed, 

how the analytic elements of the Department will be managed to achieve optimum 

benefit, and how to develop a budgetary strategy that will unify the programs related to intelligence activities and information analysis across DHS. A major collaborative study is currently under way within the DHS to establish the baseline for 

this effort. In addition, we seek to reshape the Department’s efforts consistent with 

the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) and the new 

authorities of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI). 

No less important is the need for adequate facilities, analysts, and program resources to assure that the complex and difficult process for obtaining and analyzing 

intelligence is managed, operated and sustained. It is not sufficient to simply create 

authorization for fully funded U.S. Government employees without also providing 

the resources to properly house these intelligence professionals in facilities that are 

designed and constructed to facilitate the receipt, handling, analysis, and storage of 

highly classified material in order to protect and preserve our security. To that end, 

the 2006 budget request includes $38 million to allow IAIP to fit out facilities that 

meet security and information technology requirements and allow IAIP to access 

and analyze intelligence, collaborate with our partners and execute the mission we 

have been given. IAIP came into the Department with no legacy facilities and no 

predetermined permanent housing. We now have a plan to occupy both swing and 

permanent facilities that fit our needs, and this funding request will enable us to 

complete that plan. 

As we work toward building IA’s capability, we have framed our thinking around 

a new paradigm that seeks to encompass ‘‘all information necessary to protect and 

preserve the homeland.’’ Within that environment are subsets of information such 

as defense or military information, intelligence information, law enforcement information, homeland security information, and critical infrastructure information as 

well as public and private sector information. All of these types of information make 

up the vast array of intelligence that DHS needs to do its job. 

DHS is a fully vested member of the IC and the Office of the Assistant Secretary 

for Information Analysis represents the Department in all IC venues, ensuring that 

DHS interests and requirements are fully represented and considered among the 

community. IA analysts have access to the most sensitive national intelligence regarding international and domestic terrorist threats, and the interaction with their 

peers throughout the IC continues to develop and improve. Much of the information 

we receive comes to us from IA analysts’ connections to the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications Systems (JWICS), NCTC Online, the IA Automated Message Handling System (AMHS), the Homeland Security Information Network 

(HSIN), the Open Source Information System (OSIS), and a variety of other formal 

and informal (i.e., analyst-to-analyst) mechanisms. These information streams from 

external sources are augmented by our own internal reporting from DHS components. We are increasingly well informed, but not yet satisfied with this endeavor. 

The range of intelligence and information coordinated by IA from the IC, and our 

state, local, tribal, municipal and private sector partners; as well as from all DHS 

entities with intelligence and operational capabilities, is both impressive and 

daunting. These entities—and their products—continue to be an important part of 

how IA does its work. 

IA’s relationship with our colleagues in the Infrastructure Protection (IP) Directorate is critical to our success. Jointly we are able to deliver threat-informed vulnerability analysis and data-supported risk assessments regarding our critical infrastructure to our constituents and customers—notably the private sector, which owns 

the vast majority of our nation’s critical infrastructure. 

IA is an integral part of the Homeland Security Operations Center (HSOC) effort 

to monitor and communicate on all matters of homeland security interest 24x7. Intelligence from DHS components that IA correlates and analyzes provides invaluable perspectives and insight for the entire Federal government. From a citizen providing a Patriot Report on suspicious activity, to Border and Transportation Security (BTS) reports regarding individuals of interest trying to enter the United States 

illegally, or US Coast Guard reports regarding suspicious activity near critical infrastructure. Such information is provided to IA through the same methods the larger 

IC uses: the physical presence of DHS component and IC element liaison officers 

within both IA and the Homeland Security Operations Center (HSOC), strong linkage between the HSOC and our constituents, and communication between analysts 

and leadership. In fact, the presence of representatives of 30 separate Federal and 

local representatives within the HSOC provides a perspective and collaboration ca-
9

pability that is virtually unique. Additionally, coordination within DHS is aided by 

regular meetings of the intelligence chiefs of each entity, led by the Assistant Secretary for Information Analysis. 

It is not sufficient to just produce information. In order to be effective, information 

must be shared. DHS has developed this capability and in cooperation with our Federal partners and is coordinating information sharing among previously 

unconnected systems. For example, DHS has collaborated with the Justice Department on the DOJ Law Enforcement Sharing Plan. Further, the Homeland Security 

Information Network (HSIN) is a ‘‘system of systems’’ that provides discrete communities of interest for Law Enforcement, Counter Terrorism, Analysts, Emergency 

Management, and Critical Infrastructure groups to collaborate and share critical information in real time. In addition, the DHS network provides the ability to pull 

together participants from all of these communities, into a shared space to collaborate, during any period when the threat creates the need. Further, as a direct result 

of the Department’s Information Sharing and Collaboration (ISC) initiative to cooperate and work jointly with other Federal partners, DHS and DOJ/FBI have established the first ever capability to share information between our respective communications and automation networks. Specifically, we were able to connect the 

Homeland Security Information Network with the Regional Information Sharing 

Systems (RISS) and Law Enforcement Online (LEO). More needs to be achieved but 

we are on the right track 

Already, the DHS ISC Program has engaged other Federal, State, local, and Tribal, information sharing programs in an effort to create synergy by fostering mutual 

awareness of their key programs and capabilities, and creating a forum to garner 

feedback on policies and procedures under development at the Federal level. Additionally, this effort has resulted in the first ever capability to share information 

among the State, local, and tribal information sharing systems. 

IAIP’s fiscal year 2006 budget request includes $7,482,000 for ISC. The Department is budgeting an additional $5,000,000 from the Chief Information Officer and 

$4,000,000 from the Working Capital Fund to bring the total funding for ISC in fiscal year 2006 to $16,482,000. 

In addition to receiving information from these entities, IA is routinely sharing 

information and collaborating at all levels—from the Federal Government and the 

IC to State and local officials. DHS component organizations also serve as a conduit 

through which information and warnings can pass to government at all levels. Thus, 

IA’s continuous information sharing and collaboration with the HSOC, BTS, USCG, 

and other DHS entities, provides valuable information to all of the men and women 

responsible for protecting the homeland. 

It is IA’s specific focus on the protection of the American homeland against terrorist attack that is unique among its IC partners. This focus provides invaluable 

information and assistance not only to State, territorial, tribal, local, and private 

sector officials that receive accumulated threat information, but also to DHS components that use the information, trends, and indicators to inform and prepare operators and decision makers on the front line. The relationship IA has with the HSOC, 

BTS, and other DHS entities translates into continuous information sharing and collaboration that provides a unique threat picture and actionable information to those 

who are vital to protecting the homeland. 

The Department of Homeland Security is a prime example of how changes have 

been made within the Intelligence Community, the counterterrorism community, the 

law enforcement community and the response community to work more cohesively 

as well as more collaboratively, and to assure information is shared as fully and 

completely as possible. This represents a dramatic change from conditions as they 

existed before September 11th, 2001 and an very impressive change from even one 

year ago. DHS plays a central role in the counter-terrorism and homeland security 

effort as we continue the work of communicating intelligence and information to our 

partners in the federal government as well as with the State, territorial, tribal, 

local, major city and private sector officials charged with protecting the people and 

infrastructure of the United States. 

We are proud of our work and our place in the larger national defensive network 

and we look forward to a safe and secure future for our nation. Mr. Chairman and 

Members of the Committee, this concludes my prepared statement. I would be 

happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Mr. SIMMONS. I thank you for your testimony. What we will do 

is I will ask a question and then I will go to my left and right by 

order of appearance at the time of the gavel and thereafter, after 
10

of course our Chairman and Ranking Member have had their opportunities. 

I commanded a military intelligence unit in the mid-1990s that 

created a handbook for open source intelligence that was eventually adopted by the U.S. Army as doctrine. I have had a personal 

interest in open source intelligence ever since. I have traveled to 

Special Operations Command in my capacity as a member of the 

Armed Services Committee. I have gone to open source conferences. 

I have met with officials from around the world who have an interest in this capability. 

It seems to me that open source acquisition or open source intelligence, that is intelligence that is created from the collection and 

analysis of open sources of information, lends itself particularly to 

the intelligence challenges of the Department of Homeland Security 

for two reasons. One, in some respects the information that we are 

relying on or looking for may come from that small municipal county sheriff’s department, for all we know. It needs to be transmitted 

quickly, and it does not need to be classified in and of itself. Two, 

products that are derived from open source acquisition and analysis 

often do not have to have the same level of classification as those 

that are collected through other venues, so it is more readily available to share with the American people. 

Cost is also a factor. Where are we in the development of this 

capability in support of the mission of the Department of Homeland 

Security, and where would you like to see us go? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. We have explored a number of avenues with regard to open source information. I have been a proponent of it for a long period of time. I have to tell you that I have 

discovered along the pathway that I have taken, anyway, that 

there are some problems with it. A lot of information from open 

sources, much of it is erroneous, wrong. When we use it exclusively 

without cross-checking it with something else, we have found, I 

have found, it has been my experience, that it usually gets us in 

trouble. 

So I think while I think there is great power in this source of 

information, I also think we need to tread carefully in using it, and 

understand the context in which it can be used. We have on our 

computers now in the IA element the OSIS. It stands for the Open 

Source Intelligence System that the intelligence community is the 

proponent for and now provides numerous search engines, databases, media files, download capabilities of all kinds, including photographs, pictures of the ambient culture and environment around 

the world. We have all that at our fingertips right now. We have 

had guest speakers on this topic we have tried to inculcate in the 

homeland security intelligence analysis the power of, the idea of 

open source intelligence. 

I do not know whether you are familiar with a gentleman named 

Robert Steele. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I am intimately familiar. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Okay. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I think you know what that means. 

[Laughter.] 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Yes, I do. I do. Robert Steele, for 

all of his many interesting characteristics, has been something of 
11

a pioneer in this field. We have had him come and talk to us. It 

was a very interesting talk and very deliberative and engendered 

a lot of discussion. I think that with Robert Steele’s views as something on the far end of the utility spectrum, you may think of never 

using open source information as the other end of that spectrum. 

We are trying to find utility and balance along that spectrum. 

Once again, I think it has great potential and we are very knowledgeable about it and using it. 

Mr. SIMMONS. Thank you for that response. 

I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from California, Ms. 

Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you very much. 

I am concerned about the number of contractors that are in the 

department, instead of full-time employees, not just in IA, but 

throughout the department. One question I have, without getting 

into the numbers, which we cannot, is whether you are confident 

that we have sufficient budget authority to actually have staff, as 

opposed to contractors, in the upcoming fiscal year. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Yes, ma’am. I believe that the 

budget authority is not in question here. Finding the expertise is 

a problem. And accompanying this, to the best of my ability to 

characterize the truth here, it is true that the contractors have offered us and we have taken advantage of their offer, some very fine 

people with some tremendous technical expertise that we were not 

able to acquire in any other way. 

Back to the fiscal realities of this, those people are costing us 

more money than a federal employee would. However, you cannot 

get them. We have not been able to get them by hiring them off 

the street. They are a limited supply and high demand. 

Ms. LOFGREN. I know we cannot go into the numbers in this open 

session, but I would be interested in a secure setting to take a look 

at where that balance is so we can get a handle. I know in some 

of the other aspects of DHS, I have a better handle on the contractor-to-employee ratio and how it is working. I would like to do 

that if I could arrange that with you. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I would be happy to do it. In lieu 

of reading, which might take a longer time, I can get an information paper back to you that has the details at either the unclassified level or at the level of classification that we have. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Why don’t you do that, and then if I have further 

questions, we can follow up further. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I am happy to do so. 

Ms. LOFGREN. I appreciate that. 

In thinking about the task that you face, is it fair to say that the 

largest part of the IA job is to map the intelligence collected by 

other agencies to the critical infrastructure information maintained 

by IP? If that is the case, I am wondering what influence you have, 

if any, on the state of the critical infrastructure listing and analysis, and how much that is impairing your task? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. First, the answer to the first part 

of your question, is that our primary or most critical function, my 

answer to that, I am sorry to say, is no. Our primary task and our 

most critical function has become, and I think it is logical for this 

to happen, departmental support across the board, working as an 
12

all-source intelligence producer for the department. That is really 

our work in its primary form. 

The most important part of that work is to continue that interface between IA, the intelligence part, and IT that does the risk 

analysis and vulnerability assessment, but I will have to tell you 

that it is a little bit hard for all of us to understand, the risk analysis and vulnerability assessments are not done strictly on the 

basis of threat. They are done with civil characteristics in mind. 

One of them is apparent vulnerability to possible attack using 

means of attack. Another idea that is applied here is whether or 

not a particular kind of infrastructure has proven to be attackable 

if gaps are not closed and if vulnerabilities are not reduced. 

Another idea behind it is the value of the infrastructure, whether 

it has ever been attacked or not. That is kind of a strategic assessment. As an example, I think Mr. Thompson mentioned miniature 

golf courses or something like that. Obviously, when you are using 

good common sense, not high-faluting intelligence, and you are 

weighting the importance of a miniature golf course against a nuclear storage site, hopefully most people would choose the nuclear 

storage site. That does not mean, however, that something in between those two extremes does not need some kind of protection. 

Ms. LOFGREN. I know my time is up, but the concern I had with 

the latter question is that in fact the miniature golf site is on the 

list and the nuclear power plant is not. So if part of your job is to 

map the threats to the listing of the critical infrastructure, and the 

critical infrastructure is just random, how do you do that job? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. That should not be the case. I am 

not familiar with the specific part of the list that you are telling 

me the nuclear power plan is not on there, but let’s suppose that 

that is accurate. That is a mistake and we need to fix that. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Okay. Thank you. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. You are welcome. 

Mr. COX. [Presiding.] General, I would like to go into some of the 

numbers in this open session, and I do not see any reason that we 

cannot discuss the programmatic figures here. My understanding 

with staff is that these are all open. I would like to talk about 

threat determination and assessment, evaluation and studies, the 

homeland security operations center, and the new account for information sharing and collaboration. 

I wonder if, just to set the stage for discussion of this, if you 

could describe for the subcommittee what each of these programs 

is in chief focused upon, starting with TDA. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I hope I can do this right, but it is 

not a classification issue. It is a knowledge issue, so I am going to 

have to refer to a book. The first one you wanted to talk about, sir, 

was? 

Mr. COX. Threat determination and assessment. Do you know 

what I can do also, I mean, we are sort of constrained to go 

through this program by program in order to talk about it in this 

open session, but I would like to get into what is the nub of your 

work. The figures that I have before me include the programs for 

threat determination and assessment, evaluation and studies, 

homeland security operations center, and information sharing and 

collaboration. I wonder if you could begin with whichever of these 
13

is closest to the core function of IA to do all source intelligence fusions? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Obviously, threat determination 

and analysis is a primary factor. I am not sure exactly what you 

want to know, but if you want to know if our budget is adequate, 

the answer I believe is yes. 

Mr. COX. To the extent that threat determination and assessment is central to your mission, it would disturb me, then, that we 

are cutting its budget. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I do not know if you should be disturbed about that, sir. We are not cutting it too much. The issue 

here is the threat determination, after you initially make it on a 

piece of fixed infrastructure, does not really need too much work 

after that if nothing changes. So once you lay down a baseline, you 

may not need quite the same level of effort that you did in the past. 

You do not have to re-do that baseline. 

Mr. COX. Over time, we have been working with the department 

and with you directly to make sure that you acquire the number 

and quality of analysts necessary to perform IA’s function. To what 

extent do these programmatic figures for TDA, for evaluation and 

studies, for the operations center and for information sharing and 

collaboration reflect the number of analysts that you have at your 

disposal? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. In the case of the operations center, 

there is no parallel at all. The operations center generally has people in it who are doing what I would refer to as information transfer. They are getting information in from any source at all. They 

do not analyze the information. They put it in the right bins. They 

alert people to the fact of the information. They pass it to others. 

They do any analytic endeavor. 

Mr. COX. I note that the operations center is getting a big plusup of, it looks to eyeball it, of about 40 percent. Likewise, evaluation and studies is getting a healthy increase. The threat determination and assessment account, on the other hand, is being reduced, and the explanation that has been provided to committee 

staff is that it is due in large part to a decrease in purchasing from 

government accounts and a decrease in advisory services needed 

for this account. 

To be perfectly honest with you, I do not have any idea what that 

means. So I do not know whether or not I need to be concerned. 

I know what our chief programmatic concerns are, and that is that 

we continue to help you build a core of talented analysts who can 

carry the full statutory mission forward of all source intelligence 

analysis, and make sure that even post-9/11 Act, that the Homeland Security Department is a major participant in the intelligence 

community at the NCTC. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I think your concern is well founded. If I could try it from a macro level, our overall budget I think 

is about 2 percent reduced, but money has been shifted around inside the structure of the IAIP to meet needs that we believe are 

present. Part of the plus-up in the HSOC is to handle COOP requirements and to meet the needs of the information flow that we 

anticipate is going to come into the department from greater feeding of information. This is raw information from the state and local 
14

sectors. In other words, we think after fielding homeland security 

information network, and that is JRIES with a new name on it, 

and after upgrading it to the secret level, we will be getting a lot 

more raw information. 

Handling that, processing it, is part of the plus-up that you see 

there. The idea of whether or not I can characterize what this set 

of words or phrases means exactly is kind of a mystery to me, too. 

In fact, I do not know if I could explain it. But I think the idea 

here is to get the information into not only the operational channel, 

but the intelligence channel for analysis concurrently. Lots of information that comes, especially the state and local and private sector, does not require much analysis in its initial form. It is a spot 

report, a patriot report, a person’s call-in of suspicious activity. 

That may indeed be a piece of information that has to be put into 

the analytic environment, but standing alone it can also be passed 

to operators and actors for their initial appraisal of the information. To use the phrase, the phrase has become so unpopular, to 

connect the dots, the connection of the dots still goes on, but it kind 

of rests in the background for some of this information. The foreground is the initial use of the information in an operational setting, but we have shifted money around to do that. 

Mr. COX. My time has expired. 

The gentleman from Mississippi, the Ranking Member of the full 

committee, Mr. Thompson. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Cox. 

General Hughes, can you provide this committee with a breakdown of those contractor services that we are paying for over and 

above normal personnel costs, as information that you get back to 

us? You do not have to comment on it. Just provide to us. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. THOMPSON. To your knowledge, are you aware of any problems with any of those contracting services as of this date? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I am aware of some problems. 

Mr. THOMPSON. You are? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Yes. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Can you also provide this committee with a listing of those problems? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I will. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you. 

With respect to the mapping the threat to vulnerabilities, what 

is your opinion of those vulnerabilities that have been identified, 

just in general? Do you think in your opinion those vulnerabilities 

meet the test of mapping? Do you think it is 50 percent complete? 

Just give me your honest opinion of it. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. My honest opinion is that we are 

far from finished. Indeed, we are now using a term called ‘‘complex 

urban environment.’’ We are treating the major cities especially, 

but also the industrial outliers and some other parts of the United 

States that have a concentration of activity that is of interest to us, 

and we believe it might be of interest to the terrorists, as an organism, so that if you kick the shin of a large complex city, the city 

may also get a headache at the same time as the shin hurt, because the thing is so interconnected. It is very much like an animal 

or a human. The nervous system of the city may indeed be affected 
15

by a kinetic blow. That is an important concept. I know it sounds 

a little ethereal, perhaps, but it is not. It is a fact. 

So probably the most common example of this is the electricity. 

You turn off the electricity, you turn off a lot of capability. If you 

turn the electricity off for a short period of time, you can live with 

it, not a problem. If you turn it off hard for a long period of time, 

we would have difficulty performing some of the functions we now 

take for granted. 

So that is an example. The electricity itself is what you have to 

attack in order to do that, or the control mechanisms associated 

with it. That fact, that idea that a hospital, as an example, when 

it runs out of fuel and its alternate power source does not operate 

anymore, and the electricity is still off, means that that is a vulnerability you have to assess carefully. 

If you did not assess it properly and have enough vision to see 

that after 3 days you were going to run out of fuel, there may not 

be a way to get more fuel because the pumps at the fuel station 

do not work because the electricity is off. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Okay. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. More than you wanted to know 

about it. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, I just want to know if we identified the 

hospital as a potential target. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Absolutely. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, okay. With respect to your present position, 

have you any access to all intelligence available? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Yes, I have, but I have to tell you 

that not everyone who works for me has. 

Mr. THOMPSON. What was the problem with others not having 

access to that information? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. There is in the intelligence committee, it remains to this day, a culture in which a known person 

with a certain track record, having been polygraphed and background investigations done repeatedly over time, and a certain 

amount of dependability built into that background, and perhaps 

maybe you could even call it familiarization, the old-boy network, 

that culture has something to do with what level of trust and confidence others are willing to place in you. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman, if I could. So if Congress passes 

an Act mandating agencies to share information, do I understand 

you to say that that is still subject to whether or not certain individuals want to share that information with other agencies? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I probably would not put it quite 

like that. It is subject to the rules governing the information itself 

and who has access to it for what reasons. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman, I guess my point is, if we pass 

an Act saying that these agencies have to share this information 

between them, I am now hearing that there is some other standard 

out there somewhere that prevents that information being shared. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Let me just tell you, if I may respond to this, this always has been in the intelligence business in 

the government, something called the ‘‘need to know.’’ The ‘‘need to 

know’’ rule still applies, and for the most sensitive kinds of intel-
16

ligence, about very specific activities, the ‘‘need to know’’ rule still 

is at work. 

My personal view, by the way, is it should be. You should not tell 

everyone every single thing every single day. You should make sure 

that the key persons who are involved in this work know the essential issues each and every day, and I believe that has been done 

in my case. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, I think we will probably have some more 

opportunities for discussion. Thank you. 

Mr. KING. [Presiding.] All right, Mr. Thompson. 

General Hughes, let me thank you for your service, and I certainly wish you well after March 15. 

In a way, I will be following up on Congressman Thompson’s 

question, or maybe expanding it a bit. Obviously, information analysis is a work in progress. You have described it that way yourself. 

How has the passage of the Intelligence Reform Act impacted on 

that, either positively or adversely? Do you feel that the sharing is 

working the way it should? Is it better than it was before? Do you 

feel constricted? Again, how does it impact on the Department of 

Homeland Security? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. The first part of the answer is it is 

a lot better than it was. 

Mr. KING. Because of the legislation being passed, or just because of the evolving of time? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. To be very frank, sir, I have not 

personally seen or observed any change since the act was passed 

that could be attributed directly to the act. Any of the changes that 

have occurred were ongoing prior to the act being passed. The act 

is going to take some time to reach fruition, to have impact. 

I think it is a very good act. I fully support it. I think the advent 

of a Director of national Intelligence is an important piece of that 

act and will cause the sharing function, the interoperability and 

commonality among the information systems to occur so that sharing can be better facilitated, and numerous other functions that we 

all think are laudatory. That will happen. It is ongoing, and much 

of it was ongoing before the act was passed. That is just a fact. 

Over time, since September 11, I have seen a marked improvement. Indeed, in the past year, as I stated in my written testimony, 

there has been a distinct qualitative and quantitative improvement 

in the information that is being shared in the intelligence community. By the way, parenthetically, in what can be distinguished 

from the intelligence community, is the law enforcement community, which as we all know is the nexus that makes Americans 

nervous, but it is a nexus that has to occur in the battle against 

terrorism and the battle against destabilizing forces inside our culture. So that is working. We have a much better information relationship than we ever did with the FBI. Actually, it is improving 

right along. Every few days, we make some kind of improvement. 

Is it perfect? Is it everything we could wish for? No. But the improvement is so dramatic that I am loath to criticize it in any way. 

I am happy to characterize it as something that we ought to keep 

going. 

Mr. KING. I have to ask you, is there anyone that you are willing 

to criticize? Are there any elements within the intelligence commu-
17

nity, the law enforcement agencies, who you feel are not cooperating with the spirit of the post-9/11 world that we live in? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I am not willing to criticize them. 

Mr. KING. Could you question them? Could you enlighten us as 

to perhaps areas we should be looking at, where there is not full 

cooperation being given? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I think you ought to do what you 

are doing now, which is continuing to press the entire intelligence 

community and the culture to the degree they possibly can to have 

broad and full information sharing. Just continue the pressure. It 

is working. I, for one, ascribe that success not to the practitioners 

of intelligence, but to you, the Congress. You have brought pressure to bear, and I thank you for it. 

Mr. KING. If we were in closed session, could you direct us as to 

where we should apply more pressure, you know, in one place rather than another? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. No. I do not think so. I think I 

have given you an honest answer today. 

Mr. KING. Okay. Also in your opening statement when you mentioned the fact that you would be leaving on March 15, you sort of 

enticed us with a statement that if we have any questions to ask 

you about suggestions that you might want to make, we should ask 

them. 

Let me ask you: Do you have any suggestions as to the future, 

regarding the department or regarding your specific position? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I hope we can continue this work, 

strengthen it. We need the support of Congress and obviously we 

need the support of this committee and the subcommittees of the 

committee that are named after the work of securing the homeland. You need to be first for effectiveness, change, progress in the 

future here on the Hill. You also need to be our advocate to some 

degree. 

I certainly make a plea for that to continue. My view is that we 

did not have the same kind of supporting mechanism in Congress 

when we first started out at the so-called ‘‘legacy’’ or older agencies 

and departments did have. We are slowly building that. I see the 

permanence of this committee finally recognized, I think a year late 

at least, as a manifestation of that. I cannot see how you could 

view it any differently. 

Mr. KING. Thank you, General. 

The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Etheridge. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me join my colleagues and thank you for holding this hearing. 

General Hughes, thank you for being here. We are going to miss 

you. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. I wish you all the best. 

My State of North Carolina is a participant in the regional information sharing system or the RISS program. My question is, what 

is the status of linking the homeland security information network 

to RISS? How do you propose that we avoid duplication and confusion when we try to make these linkages so they will work best for 

the American people? 
18

Lieutenant General HUGHES. RISS and LEO, the law enforcement side of that, can link now to JRIES. The names kind of run 

together here, but the homeland security information network is 

being empowered right now by the JRIES system which was an old 

Department of Defense system. That system was brought over to 

the Department of Homeland Security and put in place. Most people who have looked at it think it is an effective and efficient system. RISS and LEO both were able to link to it. It is not really 

hard to do. 

However, I believe that what we should have is a narrowing 

down of these systems and maybe even one system with one name, 

which can then be managed technically by one organizational entity. That is what I would like to see. That has proven to be an unpopular idea because of the investment that has been made in each 

of these separate systems. There are others besides RISS and LEO 

and JRIES out there. 

So I think another year or so of maturity and perhaps field evaluation may show, I am hoping it will show, that the power of combining these systems should be facilitated as rapidly as possible. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. General, let me follow that up, because it seems 

to me if we can get to that, and the sooner the better, because we 

save not only time, but we will save money. My personal view it 

would be a lot more effective for the American people and for those 

who use it. Would you agree or disagree with that statement? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I completely agree. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. Is there some way, then, that this committee 

can help facilitate that movement and the maturity of that system? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I think you can. I would like to invite you to have the proponents of the homeland security information network come here before this committee and give you their 

views and RISS and LEO also and others. I think that would be 

an excellent thing for you to do. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. Thank you, sir. I will encourage the leadership 

to take a look at that at some point. I think that is real cost savings, and would be very effective for the American people. 

I understand that DHS is attempting to provide useful intelligence to state and local first responders. How does IA handle the 

raw data and reports that you get from state and local officials 

coming in from the local? 

For example, what is the procedure for a police officer to report 

a suspicious activity that they may find, or any law enforcement 

officer, that ultimately could be used that may very well forestall 

a major problem that Homeland Security is responsible for? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Right now, a police officer or a police organization will make a report through law enforcement channels to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and either concurrently or separately to the Department of Homeland Security. 

These reports can be made verbally by telephone, or in some cases 

by the RISS network or the LEO network or some other way, a lot 

of which are terminated at the Homeland Security operations center. 

So the FBI gets them and we get them, generally speaking. 

There are cases where we have heard about, where reports do not 

come concurrently to one or the other. Usually, the report usually 
19

goes to the FBI first, and does not come to the Department of 

Homeland Security as a matter of routine. We are pressing to fix 

that by, first, advertising our role in the law enforcement community and asking them to follow this procedure. 

I might add that we have begun in the past year, and we now 

have something over 300 reports that are jointly filed with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Those reports carry a message with 

them in the body of the report that says if you have any further 

information, or if you have any indication of activity associated 

with this report or in any other way, please report it to your local 

joint terrorism task force and the homeland security operations 

center. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. Thank you, General. I see my time has expired. 

It seems like this is another area that we could press a little 

more on, because if the FBI is not sending that information over, 

and it is not being shared, that is not what we had in mind when 

we set up Homeland Security. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. The FBI, I need to add this, I hope 

I did not characterize this wrongly, the FBI is not a problem in this 

regard. The FBI, at least as far as I know, is not preventing information from coming to the Department of Homeland Security. The 

local police, the law enforcement authorities out in the states and 

localities, sometimes do not report that information concurrently. 

But when the FBI gets it, in most cases they pass it to us, and we 

do the same. 

Mr. ETHERIDGE. Thank you for that clarification. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. KING. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Dent. 

Mr. DENT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

General thank you for your service. 

My question deals with the credibility of threats. Obviously, the 

9/11 report talked a lot about the need to know versus need to 

share, and how do you strike that proper balance. When information, before it is going to be shared, obviously you have to determine whether it is credible. What is the process for determining 

the credibility of these types of threats before you can disseminate 

that information out in a timely manner to the people who need to 

know? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. That is a wonderful question because we live each and every day, and it is what I would refer to 

as Hobson choice. 

Mr. DENT. A what? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. A Hobson choice—a ‘‘damned if you 

do, damned if you don’t’’ kind of choice. If we send information that 

we get out rapidly without taking some time with it, it is apt to 

be wrong. But if we take some time to clarify it, too much time, 

it loses its importance and its value over time. We never know. We 

cannot know whether it is accurate or not immediately. 

So our choice has been to report it as rapidly as we can, knowing 

that that is going to lead to much information going out in the field 

which is wrong. We know that, but we are hoping that all the professionals that receive this information will somehow understand 

that and be able to live with it. 
20

Mr. DENT. Just to follow up, we spend a lot of time around here 

trying to determine answers to questions, and thank you for your 

service. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you very much. 

Mr. KING. The gentleman from Rhode Island is recognized, Mr. 

Langevin. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

General I want to thank you for being here and for your testimony. Thank you for your service to the country, particularly in 

your latest role at the Department of Homeland Security. You have 

made a great contribution. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. If I could just begin with IA’s role in the intelligence community. The Senate report on the intelligence leading 

up to Iraq brought to light a tendency toward group-think. The information basically stressed the worst-case scenario, and a failure 

to question assumptions, if you will. 

The question I have is, has IA institutionalized measures to ensure that a similar type of intelligence failure does not occur here, 

and if so, what measures are in place and are they effective? 

Second, there is a truism in the intelligence business that to get 

included in the right meetings, that you have to be able to bring 

something to the table. So what products or expertise does IA currently bring to the rest of the intelligence community such that it 

is seen as a valuable contributor to the intelligence process? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you very much. 

In the first case, we think there is a problem consistently over 

time in the intelligence building, and you have to guard against it 

at all times. One of the things that it is up to leaders to do is to 

develop an environment in which any question could be asked, any 

premise can be challenged, any idea can be called to account. We 

just have to do that. We have to tell people the truth as directly 

and as clearly as possible. 

I would place the burden for avoiding group-think not on a process or procedure, but on leaders, specifically the leaders in the intelligence community, not merely at the highest level, and I would 

certainly hold them accountable, but also down to the mid-grade, 

middle-management level. They have to let analysts reign in their 

intellectual space and be able to think beyond some kind of artificial limit, to be able to deal in concepts in their own context without some kind of constraint or restriction. 

If we do not have that kind of environment in the intelligence 

community, then group-think will absolutely occur, you can depend 

upon it. I had a friend when I was in the military, an Israeli intelligence general. He happened to be a lieutenant colonel at the time 

of the 1973 invasion by the Egyptians across the Suez Canal. A 

captain came to him and said, those Egyptians are testing us each 

and every time we carry out war games, and we are not doing anything about it. The lieutenant colonel said, they are just war 

games. The captain said, they are not just war games; they are 

practicing. One of these days, they are going to continue. You know 

the rest of the story. 

The lieutenant colonel later regretted his failure in this function, 

and the picture of the dead from the front there was an intelligence 
21

analyst with chains and a big heavy locks around his head. That 

is the issue. We just have to somehow generate an environment 

that never allows that to happen in the United States. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. General, if I could be clear in the understanding 

that you in particular in your department have things in place to 

make sure that consciously you have made sure that group-think 

is not going to be a problem? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I have done the best I could to generate an environment in which any idea is welcome, any thought 

is fine. At some point, however, decision-makers have to make decisions. If your decisions over time prove to be flawed or faulty, then 

you obviously have a problem. 

The second part of your question, would you repeat it? 

Mr. LANGEVIN. I want to know if it is true that in the intelligence 

business, to get included at the right meetings, you have to bring 

something to the table. So I wanted to ask what IA currently 

brings to the rest of the intelligence community such that you are 

seen as a valuable contributor to the intelligence process. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I think that is right, that you do 

have to contribute. I think we are beginning to contribute something that is somewhat unique. I refer to it as domestic information. In the situation here in the United States, we are in partnership with the FBI that involves the concept of law enforcement information and intelligence all together to inform decision-makers 

and responsible parties about the context in which things are happening, and about potential events. This is not spying on the American people in any way, but it is understanding that there are persons inside our society and coming towards us who would do us 

great harm. We have to know where those people are, who they 

are, what their capabilities are, and what the potentialities are. 

The Department of Homeland Security represents unique capabilities in that regard. We are the people who inhabit and control 

the borders. We are the people who inhabit and control the borders. 

We are the people who take care of the brown water on the shores 

of our nation. We are the people who sense the environment to protect important persons from harm. We are the people who administer the safety of our transportation system. 

No one else does these things. I believe we are being recognized 

as bringing unique and very valuable, not only information, but 

skills and capabilities to the table. I will have to tell you that I still 

detect some resistance, among others, to mention of those ideas in 

the context of the Department of Homeland Security. 

There is still sort of a default mechanism out there that when 

you talk about transportation security, and you might say TSA. If 

you talk about the Coast Guard, you talk about the Coast Guard. 

But over time, some development of the concept of an umbrella organization is gaining strength and will come to fruition. That 

would be the development of a very valuable concept for the Department of Homeland Security, which can achieve intra-component synergy among all of these capabilities. 

The simple answer is, yes, we bring something to the table, now 

and more in the future. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. I see my time has expired. Thank you for your 

answer to the questions, and again thank you for your service. 
22

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMMONS. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman for his questions. If he refers to the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee 

report of last year, the first eight conclusions deal with issues of 

group-think, and a contributing factor to group-think is a lack of 

information. 

The gentleman from California is recognized, Mr. Lungren. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you for your testimony, General, and thank you, more importantly, for your lifetime of service. We all appreciate that. 

Could you give us an idea of where you think your department’s 

information analysis capability is right now? That is, if you have 

to say that complete success would be a 10, and we know we could 

never get to a 10; maybe 9 is what we can achieve because we are 

always changing for that last one. As you leave, where do you 

think it is? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Five to six. 

Mr. LUNGREN. If it were five to six, for us to get up to nine, what 

are the very specific two or three priorities that you would have the 

department emphasize with your successor? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. The kind of experienced, analytic 

workforce, public employees that we can depend upon over time, 

that will stay in this occupational field and continue to do this 

work for a long period of time. This is not conventional or routine 

intelligence work. It is different. 

Second, improvement on facilities. The facilities are inadequate 

to the task. We need support in that area. 

Three, you need a full understanding of the remainder of the intelligence community about what it is that we are doing, why we 

are doing it, and how we are doing it. I think that is the third item 

on the list for a reason. That is the lowest priority. The first two 

are vital. 

I would mention that we need more time. Everyone keeps saying, 

and I heard the Chairman mention a ‘‘two-year period.’’ It is true 

that we have been in existence for over two years, but I can tell 

you that we were not functional when I arrived on 17 November, 

2003, in the intelligence business. We had 27 people; we could not 

do the job. Time period has to be measured in capability and effectiveness. We were not effective. We are not completely efficient and 

we are not as good as we should be. The progress is real. We just 

need some more time. 

We also need more people of the right kind, government employees, better facilities and structures, and we need understanding 

and support. 

Mr. LUNGREN. General, when I was Attorney General of California, one of my responsibilities was the head of WSIN, the Western States Information Network, one of the RISSes around the 

country. Are we utilizing the RISSes around the country effectively 

in information gathering and sharing? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Probably not as effectively as we 

should. That is a process that we began this past summer by having people from all of the states come here to Washington. We 

began to inform them about the methods of information sharing at 

that time. We have a plan in place to have that same kind of gath-
23

ering again this summer, and we are sending out mobile training 

teams who help people understand how things can be improved in 

that regard. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Let me ask the question this way: Are we utilizing 

the RISSes as a platform to provide information to you? Or are you 

duplicating or replicating that? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. We are using the RISS, the law enforcement network, and others to the degree that we can. It is a 

cooperative effort. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Okay. Sure. I know you are loath to criticize anybody, and I will not ask you to do that here, but I will just give 

you some insights I have received from some law enforcement people on the ground or in middle-management positions. They still 

find a reluctance to share information from the feds on down, specifically with the FBI. I would normally say, ‘‘Well, you are always 

having grousing like that,’’ but when I was Attorney General, 

frankly, I can tell you it was very serendipitous as to whether or 

not we got a spirit of cooperation from the feds, whose need to 

know seemed to be the feds need to know, but you do not need to 

know. 

Much information in the domestic arena, frankly, can be gathered as well and sometimes even better by the many more law enforcement officers we have at the local and state level than we do 

not the federal level. They are much closer to the street. They have 

more contacts. They may not have all the contacts in the specific 

terrorist organizations, but they have contacts with a lot of people 

that may come into contact with them. It is debilitating for them 

to be viewed as second-class citizens, and to have the feds say, we 

have the view, we have the mileage, we have the right to know, 

and you do not. 

I see it expressed in this way. That is, with the color code system 

we have and the alerts that they receive, they told me that oftentimes they would receive these alerts without really underlying information. So they were told generally speaking the threat assessment was higher, but they did not have real information therefore 

to respond to that. That, to me, suggests an underlying lack of 

trust of local and state government that still pervades the federal 

establishment. Can you tell me whether you have seen that, number one; and number two, if you have, what steps in particular has 

your department taken to try and break that down? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. First, everything you said I have 

heard. We may know the same people. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. LUNGREN. We will not put that on the record. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I have to tell you that I think it is 

absolutely accurate. The phenomenon of the arrogance of the federal establishment in relationship to the state and localities with 

regard to information is well known. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Well, members of Congress excepted, of course. 

[Laughter.] 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Sir, you can believe whatever you 

want. I have heard a lot about this. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. LUNGREN. Better watch it, General. Be careful there. 
24

Lieutenant General HUGHES. I have to tell you that I think it is 

an accurate portrayal. The local effort feels like they are secondclass citizens because of the attitude that is conveyed to them by 

some federal officials. 

I do not think that is across the board. I think it is somewhat 

circumstantial, but nevertheless, it is a fact. 

What we have done is, first, we are sending out a lot more information; that is simply a fact. We can prove that by simply showing 

you the documents we now send routinely to the states and localities. We did assemble them here, and we are going to assemble 

then here again this year. It is a participative effort. Admittedly, 

it was not much of a dialogue. That is too bad, but in the first instance we had a lot of things to put out to them. And they actually 

thought it was very worthwhile. 

This summer, we have meetings here in Washington again over 

a three-to four-day period. We hope to make it more of a dialogue 

and we will hear from that more. 

By the way, we have this in August, so if there is any possible 

way we could get a Congressman or a Senator to come and meet 

before that group and give your views, we would really appreciate 

it, because this kind of interaction is vital. 

We have also established, and we are establishing over time, relationships with people. Some of these relationships are very circumstantial and short-lived. I did not meet the sheriff of Las 

Vegas, even though I had telephone conversations with him and 

talked to him on a couple of occasions. I never met with this gentleman personally face to face until a few days ago. Indeed, when 

I met with him, he had his share of complaints. 

But he is the guy in charge of Las Vegas. What do I know about 

Las Vegas? Nothing. I am completely dependent on him to know 

primarily what is going on in Las Vegas. 

However, he recognizes, I think as most localities do, that occasionally, especially in the world of terrorism, big problems can 

come toward specific towns and cities that the town and city do not 

know about. That is a fact. It is the nature of the larger world of 

intelligence and counterterrorism. They do not come and rest and 

stay in exactly the target place, so that everybody and their brother 

gets to know them. They project themselves into these environments and, usually relatively rapidly in the target area, take action. 

So we are trying to get a mutual understanding of the phenomenon. We do at the national level, at the federal level, have 

something to contribute, and we should contribute that by passing 

it to the states and local authorities, and we are trying hard to do 

that. We have made improvements, and if they were sitting here 

in this room, I think they would say that. I think they would say, 

yes, things are better than they used to be. 

Mr. LUNGREN. Thank you, General. Mr. Chairman, could we ask 

the staff to work with the General’s staff for us to be able to see 

when threat assessments are made, the level of information that is 

given to local jurisdictions, so that we might be able to see what 

we are really talking about, because I have had these complaints 

from law enforcement saying they have inadequate information 
25

once a threat level is given to them. Maybe we just need to look 

at it ourselves. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I would be happy to do that. I began my political 

career as a police commissioner, and in the post-9/11 environment, 

the new model is not local, state, federal each doing its own thing. 

The new model is communication between all levels. I know the 

Ranking Member has expressed to me her frustration over the 

same type of issue. My guess is that this is an important consideration for this subcommittee, and we will certainly look into it. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. If you do not mind, I must give you 

just another piece of information. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I do not want to deny you, but the distinguished 

lady from Texas, her questions, I know she has been here for a 

while, so make it brief, General. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. Okay, I will make it brief. The 

question you posed to me was in the context of the homeland security alert system, the changing of the colors. It is true that in the 

initial application of the changing of the colors, not much information was given. It is increasingly true, has been over time, since the 

Christmas 2003 and January, February, and March 2004 period, 

we have given more information. I will make sure you have the 

context of the question, there. But I think it is a very good thing 

to ask, to have us give you a better characterization of how much 

information we are giving out. 

Mr. SIMMONS. The distinguished lady from Texas, Ms. JacksonLee. 

Ms. JACKSON-LEE. I thank the Chairman and the Ranking Member. 

General let me thank you for your service, and try to go quickly 

through my questions because of the time. 

I believe that one of the aspects of the IAIP’s most important 

issues is the analyzing and integrating terrorist threat information 

and making sure that amongst any other agency that we relate to 

the homeland, I think of the FBI and the CIA as having their own 

constituency bases, even though we are trying to work very hard 

at the integration of those agencies, really in terms of fighting terrorism, the Department of Homeland Security signified to America 

that we are focused on their needs and providing them with the intelligence they need to understand the terrorist threat and to fight 

terrorism. 

As I look at the budget, and I know that this is particularly related to the intelligence needs, I think a point worth noting is that 

the President’s budget indicates that government-wide spending for 

homeland security increases really overall by $1 billion. To put this 

in perspective, we all know that we are spending about $1 billion 

a week in Iraq and probably other added dollars in Afghanistan. 

In particular, I believe that there is an intent to hire an additional 

73 more employees, and also to seek ways of improving our ability 

to analyze and integrate terrorist threat information, map threats 

against our vulnerabilities and implement actions to protect American lives. 

I know that we are going to lose your talent in March, and again 

let me thank you for your service, but how are we going to do that 

when we are looking at a potential cut of $20 million? Might I add 
26

to that question a statement that you made in your speech when 

you were able to say that we were able to connect the homeland 

security information network with the regional information sharing 

system, and I think the previous question raised that question. You 

yourself said that one needs to be achieved, but we are on the right 

track. If you could expand on what you gave to Congressman Lungren, and talk specifically about the ability to hire employees and 

try to improve what we are trying to with this budget cuts. 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. If I understand the question right, 

ma’am, the budget cut is not an assured thing. The Department of 

Homeland Security expects plus-up in our overall budget as you described, and we do not expect for the budget to be cut back. That 

is our hope. 

Ms. JACKSON-LEE. But if it is cut back, then you will have difficulty fulfilling your mission. Is that correct? 

Lieutenant General HUGHES. That is true. That is correct. I 

would certainly hope that that does not happen. 

With regard to the idea of whether or not we can do the job and 

how well we can do it, the connectivity that we have out there with 

the RISS system and the LEO system and others, this is an evolutionary thing. We just discovered not long ago a system that is run 

by the Federal Protective Service, which is part of the Department 

of Homeland Security, which is a portal into law enforcement information the Federal Protective Service holds. That is within our 

own department and we did not know it existed until not long ago. 

So we are learning. We are developing over time. A lot of these 

things, even though they may seem self-evident, they are not. We 

have had to ferret them out. I think we are continuing to make 

good progress. 

The answer I would give to you and to the person who asked the 

earlier question is, connectivity is almost everything. If we do not 

have that, and I think the Chairman is familiar, information not 

shared is worthless. That is it. That gets to the central idea here. 

We can get the information. The next imperative is to share it. 

That is what we are all about. So we have been trying to build and 

make this interconnected network a system of systems, whatever 

names you want to apply to it. We want to make sure it is interoperable, that it has enough elements of commonality so that we 

can pass information horizontally and vertically throughout the 

system. That is what we would like to do. 

Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the General’s 

views, and Ranking Member, sort of focusing on our questions, but 

let me just say that this exercise poses a very difficult challenge, 

because it is very difficult when you have overlapping committees 

of jurisdiction such as the Budget Committee. Your expertise and 

the Ranking Member’s expertise on some of the aspects of this, still 

the time is not long enough to sort of probe General Hughes and 

the knowledge that he has. 

Two points I think are key to this, and I would start out by saying that homeland security connotes security of the homeland. People think of the FBI and CIA, so you have a great responsibility. 

I think that this one sentence that he has, the pages are not numbered, but when he talks of RISS and the law enforcement online, 

one needs to be achieved, I think in our work we need to focus in 
27

on whether we have appropriate resources to make sure that the 

communication is going on in the homeland with law enforcement. 

Another point is, and I think it is very important, is this rightto-know rule. We look forward to your expertise, but I wonder 

whether or not this committee will have oversight to be able to refine that in this new post-9/11 era. For example, and I will close 

on this note, General Hughes, there is something called OTMs at 

the border, the southern border, other than Mexican nationals coming across. That has taken a new life, that there are potential individuals coming across that border that may do us harm. The border 

patrol agents then become a greater force with respect to their 

need to know, and they need to know classified information or information at a very high level. I am not comfortable that even in 

this budget oversight we have focused on it. 

General Hughes, I thank you for the one very great point that 

you said, if we cut the budget and do not provide you with the resources, you are not going to be able to do the job. I think that is 

our responsibility. 

I yield back, and I thank the Chairman for the additional time 

on the clock. Thank you. 

Mr. SIMMONS. I thank you for your comments. I think we are all 

aware that this is the first hearing of the permanent subcommittee. 

It is historic in that regard. The opportunities for us are pretty dramatic, but the challenges are also great. It is an area where we 

have to work together and share together to be successful. I thank 

you for your comments. I think they are right on the dime. 

We will keep the record open for 10 days for any additional written comments that anyone may wish to submit. I have a few remarks to make as closing remarks, but I would like to recognize 

my Ranking Member, if she has remarks she would like to make. 

Ms. LOFGREN. This is just the beginning, obviously, and General, 

we do appreciate your being here today, even though we will not 

be seeing much of you for long. I think certain questions have become more ripe in our minds as we listened to you. The 

connectivity of the system obviously is important, whether it is the 

Internet or whether it is intelligence. Therefore, we are dependent 

on agencies both within DHS, but also without. So we certainly 

cannot do it today, I am thinking about the FBI system that we 

had great promise for, but did not produce, and how that is going 

to impact DHS. 

I have spent 10 years on the Judiciary Committee paying attention to immigration, and I am very well aware of the deficiencies 

in the technology and that aspect, and the impact it has on the 

ability to gather information that then could be shared. So I am 

hopeful that as we move forward in this year that we will be able 

to look at those as they connect and maybe get some improvements 

that will make us all safer. 

I did want to just follow up very briefly in writing, but comment 

that I am concerned about the ‘‘need to know’’ information issue. 

Certainly, the Congress cannot micromanage an intelligence agency. It would not be proper, but I am concerned that if that is an 

ad hoc decision being made in the agency, then we have maybe 

failed to actually have the policy, the ‘‘who voted for’’ implemented. 

I think we have to explore that further, Mr. Chairman. 
28

Finally, my colleague from California mentioned the frustration 

that local agencies have. I think that has improved somewhat with 

Director Mueller and the FBI task force. At least the feedback I am 

getting from law enforcement is much different than I used to. But 

what I am hearing form local law enforcement is that they never 

hear from DHS. It is invisible to them. So I think we need to sort 

through and be parochial. There are more people living in Los Angeles County than there are in over 20 states, and how we are 

dealing with the gigantic nation-state of California and whether 

that system is going to work for that state or not, and how we 

might format it so we really do have a system that is slick and 

works and protects us. 

I thank the Chairman for recognizing me. 

Mr. SIMMONS. Thank you. 

Just very briefly, back in 1981, I became the staff director of the 

Senate Intelligence Committee, working for Senator Barry Goldwater as the Chairman and Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan as 

the Vice Chairman. Try that one on for size, staff. The Chairman 

is Senator Goldwater. Well, you are too young to even remember 

who he is; and the Vice Chairman was Daniel Patrick Moynihan, 

a good Republican and a good Democrat. One from the west and 

one from the east; one conservative and one liberal. I sat and 

worked with them for 4 years as they initiated what I consider to 

be professional congressional oversight of the intelligence community. 

I learned about the value of bipartisanship, and I learned about 

the value of listening to others when it comes to the intelligence 

business. I learned that you can put those differences aside if you 

are focusing on a common goal, which in that case was to build the 

intelligence community to preserve and protect our values and our 

people and our country. 

Regrettably, on 9/11 we failed in that regard. So the mantle has 

been passed to another generation of members of Congress and another generation of members of the staff, to do what we can do to 

preserve and protect our homeland, while at the same time preserving and protecting our civil liberties. That is an awesome challenge. In those days 25 years ago, we did not have a hearing room 

or spaces that were ours. We occupied the auditorium in the Dirksen Building. Today, we do not have a hearing room, I do not believe. We are looking for one, although this is much better than the 

auditorium of the Dirksen Building, I can assure you. 

But we should not let these little logistical challenges get in the 

way of the important work of this subcommittee and of course the 

important work of the full committee. 

I will leave you with a final thought. For the 4 years that I have 

been a member of Congress, I have never changed the license plate 

on my car. I know some immediately go out with a screw driver 

and put on that lovely congressional plate. But the plate that I 

have on my car has the simple phrase ‘‘kung ho,’’ which conveys 

enthusiasm and excitement, but as we all know comes from the 

Chinese word ‘‘kung ho,’’ which means ‘‘work together.’’

I look forward to working together with the staff, with the members of this subcommittee, with the Administration and others, to 

pursue the important agenda that we have before us. 
29

Thank you all for being here today. 

And thank you, General, for your participation. 

[Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

(31)

A P P E N D I X 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD BY THE HON. BENNIE

THOMPSON FOR ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INFORMATION ANALYSIS KAREN

MORR ON BEHALF OF DHS 

Question: 1. General Hughes, one theme the Department has repeated in describing the President’s Fiscal Year 2006 budget is consolidation. I think we all recognize 

that the current organizational structure at DHS isn’t necessarily the best one, and 

that moving offices or functions can improve performance or reduce cost. 

Some agencies, including the office that distributes billions of dollars to first responders, rely on IA for threat information. However, some parts of DHS have their 

own intelligence departments—including the Coast Guard and Secret Service as 

part of the Intelligence Community, but also TSA, the Federal Air Marshals, CBP, 

and ICE. Thankfully, many of these programs are unclassified, so we can talk about 

their budgets in public. TSA, for example, is requesting $21 million and 99 FTEs 

for Fiscal Year 2006.

Question: 1. Given the trend within DHS for consolidation, for example the 

transfer of research and development activities to the Science and Technology Directorate, should IA have more control over all the intelligence 

operations in DHS? 

Intelligence is integral to the successful operations of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). In our efforts to build a strong Department from its original 

22 agencies, it is critical to coordinate DHS intelligence functions. The ability of the 

Department to conduct its mission is enhanced when components have synchronized 

intelligence activities. The Office of Information Analysis, in concert with the DHS 

components that have intelligence activities, is conducting a study with the intent 

of developing a plan to integrate key aspects of these activities. That study is reviewing several elements of the intelligence program, including mission areas and 

supporting functions. The results of this study will be presented to the senior leadership this spring. IAIP will continue to work to ensure the Department’s intelligence activities are coordinated.

Question: 2. With the first deadline on the ‘‘Information Sharing Environment,’’ as mandated by the recently enacted Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act, occurring in less than two months, do you know 

what will be the role of DHS in operating or setting the rules for the ‘‘environment’’

The first deadline related to the terrorism information sharing environment (ISE) 

was met. The President designated John Russack as the Program Manager responsible for planning for, overseeing the implementation of, and managing the ISE pursuant to section 1016 of P.L. 108–458. Per our statutory authorities and responsibilities, DHS has a critical role in the development of all aspects of the ISE, including 

the establishment of the business rules for the ISE. DHS has been actively engaged 

in the work to date toward developing the ISE and will continue to have an active 

role in relation to this Department, our stakeholders, and the community at large. 

In particular, DHS has a unique role, as defined under the Homeland Security 

Act, for sharing homeland security information with state, local, and tribal governments as well as the private sector in relation to critical infrastructure. Specifically, 

Executive Order 13311 delegates to the DHS Secretary the responsibilities for procedures for prescribing and implementing information sharing as defined in Section 

892 of the Homeland Security Act (P.L. 107–296). Improving information sharing 

has been and continues to be a top strategic priority for DHS. The Information 

Sharing and Collaboration Office (ISCO) was established in DHS to provide focus 

and coordination for these statutory and Presidential mandates. 
32

DHS is currently a key link among State, tribal, and local government, as well 

as the private sector critical infrastructure entities. The Department is already operating in critical information spheres (defense, intelligence, homeland security, law 

enforcement, private sector) and is providing strategic guidance to oversee the development of their intersection and collaboration to produce all information necessary 

to govern and protect and will coordinate these activities with the Program Manager.

Question: 3. After the 2004 elections, then–Secretary Ridge said that there 

had been a decrease in chatter and that the threat of terrorist attack was 

lower than it had been in some time. Is that still the case, and if so, how 

do you account for that? 

Beginning in Summer 2004, we began to see a decrease in incoming credible and/

or specific information mentioning direct threats to the United States. The reasons 

for the quantitative and qualitative decrease—which lasted through late February 

2005—remain unclear. Since then, we have tracked a number of threat streams 

deemed credible and/or specific to Homeland-related interests, however we do not 

know if this is related to the natural cycle of the intelligence collection process or 

other factors more related to actual terrorist operational planning. 

Despite this relative increase in credible and/or specific reporting since late February, we continue to lack information indicating an imminent threat to the United 

States, as well as the timing, targets, or methodology of any potential operation. 

While the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the rest of the Intelligence 

Community are still analyzing each particular threat stream, as well as those 

streams collectively, they do reinforce our perception regarding al-Qaida’s ongoing 

strategic intent to conduct another dramatic attack in the United States. This intent 

and possible planning is reflected in all-source intelligence reporting, vice a single 

collection discipline. 

We note that the reporting level from vague, low-credibility, or undetermined 

sources (call-ins, write-ins, walk-ins, media pronouncements, etc.) regarding possible 

attacks on the Homeland remains relatively constant and numerically more significant than reports from ‘‘credible’’ sources.

Question: 4. What changes are being considered for the Homeland Security Advisory System, and will the system continue to be used in its current 

structure? 

The Homeland Security Advisory System (HSAS) has evolved throughout the history of DHS and currently includes the flexibility to assign threat levels for the entire nation, or a particular geographic area or infrastructure sector, depending on 

the credibility and specificity of available threat information. The HSAS is a collaborative process which takes into account current threat information and incorporates 

the perspectives of other federal entities (both within and outside of DHS); state, 

local, and tribal partners; and private sector stakeholders. DHS learns new lessons 

and continues to improve the system each time HSAS level changes are considered.

Æ