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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

~OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, DC 

~------------------------------~ 

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IN THE MATTER OF: RECEIVE 

SKYWEST AIRLINES 

FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011 

(FDMS No. FAA-2011-00485) 

OCT 2 B 2012 

HEARING DOCKE 

FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060010 

(FDMS No. FAA-2011-0486) 

FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060033 

(FDMS No. FAA-2011-0680/0779) 

~------------------------------~ 

Tuesday 

October 2, 2012 

Frank E. Moss Courthouse 

350 South Main Street 

Salt Lake City, Utah 84101 

The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, 

pursuant to notice, a 10:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

Richard C. Goodwin 

Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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APPEARANCES: 

FOR THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: 

Jeffrey Harper 

OFFICE OF REGIONAL COUNSEL 

1601 Lind Avenue Southwest 

Renton, Washington 98057-3356 

Tel: 425.227.2161 

Fax: 425.227.1007 

jeffrey.harper@faa.gov 

FOR SKYWEST AIRLINES: 

Michael L. Dworkin 

John T. Van Geffen 

MICHAEL L. DWORKIN AND ASSOCIATES 

465 California Street, Suite 210 

San Francisco, California 94104 

Tel: 415.421.2500 

law@avialex.com 

johnvangeffen@avialex.com 

Todd C. Emerson 

SKYWEST AIRLINES GENERAL COUNSEL 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

Tel: 435.634.3530 

temerson@skywest.com 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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CONTENTS 

Opening Statement by Mr. Harper 

Opening Statement by Mr. Dworkin 

17 

83 

3 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

JAMES MCKENNA 26 33 39 

YVONNE HUYMH 41 50 

WENDELL GEHRING 62 72 

CARL SALAMONE 86 127 

JEREMY BARCLAY 129 132 

AARON WILLIAMS 163 

MAGGI AIKEN 168 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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E X H I B I T S 

COMPLAINANT'S EXHIBITS 

C-1 

C-2 

C-3 

C-102 

C-103 

Baggage Photo, 

Delta Flight 4451 (0001-2) 

Baggage Photo, 

Delta Flight 4659 (0003-4) 

Baggage Photo, 

Delta Flight 4659 (0005-6) 

SkyWest Customer Service 

Procedures 

Operation Specifications A098 

32 

68 

69 

70 

71 

RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS 

R-3 

R-4 

R-5 

R-6 

R-15 

SkyWest Weight and Balance Analysis 

9/24/12 Revision 2 107 

SkyWest Weight and Balance Program 

Amendment Proposal 3/2/2011 . 122 

3/4/10 SkyWest Letter to FAA 

Regarding 14 CFR 121.693 125 

5/17/01 Ayers Letter Regarding 

Proposal for an Amendment to 

SkyWest's Approved 

Weight and Balance Program 127 

12/21/10 SkyWest Letter Responding 

Investigation of Flight 6573 174 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 (10:00 a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let' s go on the 

4 record. This 1s the consolidated case of 

5 SkyWest Airlines FDMS Docket No. 

6 FAA-2011-0485, FAA-2011-486, and two cases 

7 which originate with the same FAA docket 

8 number which were individually docketed as 

9 FAA-2011-680 and later as FAA Docket No. 

10 2011-0779. 

11 Counsel, will you identify 

12 yourself for the record, please? 

13 MR. HARPER: For the FAA, Jeffrey 

14 Harper. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent? 

16 MR. DWORKIN: For SkyWest, Michael 

17 L. Dworkin, San Francisco; John T. Van Geffen, 

18 San Francisco; Todd Emerson, General Counsel 

19 SkyWest Airlines. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I would note 

21 for the record, Mr. Dworkin, you live in San 

22 Francisco, I live in Fresno. We have to come 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 to Salt Lake to see each other. 

2 I have a preliminary matter which 

3 I set forth 1n the hearing notice, and I've 

4 given everybody a chronology of events. What 

5 disturbs me about the two cases 680 and 779 

6 and let me say first off, Mr. Harper, I don't 

7 attribute anything to the FAA or anything 

8 else. You didn't do anything wrong. 

9 What I'm concerned about is what 

10 happened when the case got to our office. As 

11 I set forth in the chronology of events, and 

12 I'm talking now just about 2011-680 and 779. 

13 I've given each Counsel a chronology of 

14 events. 

15 But 1n short, the FAA docketed a 

16 case which is 2011 NM for Northwest Mountain 

17 060033. The case was originally sent to our 

18 office August 29th of 2011, and it was 

19 designated as 2011-779. The case was, quote, 

20 assigned to me, and I use that term loosely, 

21 by a Notice of Assignment issued by the chief 

22 judge. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Then on October 5th, through no 

2 error on the part of the FAA the same docket 

3 number ended up at DMS, was given a subsequent 

4 docket number of 680, and Judge Yoder -- and 

5 I've attached to the chronology the pleading 

6 that he issued on October 4th. 

7 What's what I've been 

8 struggling with since I discovered this error 

9 is a number of issues. First of all, 1s there 

10 any regulatory authority precluding or 

11 requiring a Notice of Assignment before a case 

12 is assigned to a judge? The only thing I can 

13 find, to be honest, is a reference in the job 

14 description of the gener1c OPM job 

15 description of chief judge which says the 

16 chief judge shall assign cases. I can't find 

17 any regulatory authority beyond that. 

18 And the reason that's important 1n 

19 my opinion 1s there was a, quote, Notice of 

20 Assignment assigning me the case in August, 

21 and Judge Yoder issued a pleading captioned 

22 "Notice of Assignment of Proceeding" and then 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 closure of the FDMS docket. Well, the problem 

2 lS the language of his order of October 4th 

3 doesn't assign anything to anybody, not in the 

4 context of the language. And he then proceeds 

5 to close the docket. 

6 I can't tell you how many times 

7 I've read this, and I can't figure out whether 

8 he's closed 680, 779 or the FAA docket or one 

9 or more combinations or the entire docket. So 

10 what I've asked Counsel to do -- and I don't 

11 want you to argue it today -- is brief the 

12 1ssues 1n the case, the procedural issues. 

13 And as a part of that I'd like to 

14 know whether there's any regulatory authority 

15 either requiring a Notice of Assignment or 

16 allowing a Notice of Assignment, for that 

17 matter, because that becomes the basis of what 

18 Judge Yoder has done in his October 4th order 

19 of 2011 where he sua sponte issues a pleading 

20 closing a docket. And my question to both 

21 Counsel lS: What does a closure mean and has 

22 he in effect dismissed the entire docket? I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 discovered the error more than 30 days after 

2 as a matter of fact, I think it was 

3 sometime late November, early October 

4 [verbatim] 

5 So if his order dismisses the 

6 case, you know, I told Mr. Emerson the other 

7 day if I were the Respondent, I would argue 

8 res judicata that the case has been dismissed. 

9 And if I were the FAA, I would argue that NOA 

10 as an administrative pleading have absolutely 

11 no authority, there's no regulatory basis for 

12 it, and that the pleading is essentially -- I 

13 can't think of the right word, but, you know, 

14 is meaningless. 

15 Anyway, I'd like you to brief that 

16 in those two cases. One other thing I'd like 

17 you to do -- because this is a consolidated 

18 case, what I'd like you to do 1s make sure 

19 that when we present the testimony and we 

20 present the evidence that represent it in such 

21 a way that -- I expect to see finite issues in 

22 each of the three cases. I will probably 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 write a consolidated opinion incorporating in 

2 that opinion the three different cases which 

3 then gives you the opportunity to appeal a 

4 portion of my decision or none of my decision, 

5 you know, however you want to do it. 

6 So I want -- what I'm trying to do 

7 1s protect the record. I can deal with it as 

8 long as we make sure that when we present 

9 evidence and testimony we're referring to 485 

10 or 486 or 680. If it's all three, say that. 

11 If it's two out of three, say that so that 

12 when we write the opinion -- normally what I 

13 do with consolidated cases, I'll give a 

14 factual background. In this case we'll give 

15 a procedural background of the two cases I 

16 just talked about, and then I'll break the 

17 decision out. 

18 I'll probably write something with 

19 respect to 485, something with respect to 486, 

20 and then something with respect to 779 and 

21 680. So just keep that in mind as we go 

22 through this. Last thing you want to do 1s 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 confuse me so then in December I'm trying to 

2 figure out, now, what is this. 

3 Mr. Dworkin, as I said in Mr. 

4 Emerson's other case, the transcript will 

5 probably be available in two to four weeks at 

6 FAA headquarters. When it gets to Mr. Harper 

7 is anyone's guess. 

8 Mr. Harper, when you get the 

9 transcript, I'm going to ask you to call Mr. 

10 Emerson and call Mr. Dworkin, let them know 

11 you have the transcript . 

12 Mr. Dworkin, you've done enough of 

13 these. You know how to get a hold of a copy of 

14 the transcript. Then I want -- Mr. Dworkin, 

15 I take it you're going to be lead counsel? 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN : Mr . Harper, you 

18 and Mr. Dworkin work out some sort of a 

19 briefing schedule. As I said the last two 

20 days, the holidays are coming up, you both 

21 have busy trial schedules. Get me a briefing 

22 schedule that will work for you. If you run 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 into any bumps in the road and need to modify 

2 it, you know, shoot me an amendment. If you 

3 can't agree, I'll issue something. 

4 But once you agree on an initial 

5 briefing schedule, just throw it together, 

6 send it to Mr. Liebowitz. I'll s1gn it and 

7 get it back to you. I want to make sure you 

8 have adequate opportunity to brief all the 

9 issues 1n all the cases, especially 680 and 

10 779 because frankly I'm concerned about what 

11 happened there and what -- you know, what the 

12 potential impact is either way. 

13 Are there any preliminary matters 

14 for either one of you? 

15 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor, not 

16 to complicate 680 and 779 more. I discovered 

17 yesterday that there was a typographical error 

18 1n the Complaint. I'd like to move to amend 

19 the Complaint to correct that error. 

20 Specifically paragraph 10 alleges a date of 

21 February 11th. That date should be February 

22 15th. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection as 

2 to correct that? 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Which year? 

4 MR. HARPER: The year was correct. 

5 2011. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: That was which case, 

7 Counsel? 

8 MR. HARPER: 680/799, 06033. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: That is FAA Case No. 

10 2011-NM-060033? 

11 MR. HARPER: Yes . 

12 MR . DWORKIN : We have too many 

13 numbers here. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. That's --

15 my first question when I took this job is why 

16 can't we use the same set of numbers. But if 

17 you'll notice as it moves through the system, 

18 it starts out with an FAA number and a DMS 

19 number and then a -- there are always three 

20 sets of numbers which drives me crazy. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: We have no objection 

22 to the amendment to the Complaint, Your Honor. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So just for 

2 the record, the FAA has moved to amend in the 

3 Complaint in 680/779 to change the date from 

4 February 11th to February 15th in paragraph 

5 MR. HARPER: Ten, Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- ten. 

7 Are these mics working? As I'm 

8 thinking about it, I've got a hearing 

9 disability. So if I ask you to speak up, 

10 don't take it as a criticism. I legitimately 

11 can't hear you, especially if you're soft. I 

12 don't know how the acoustics are going to 

13 work. My experience in courtrooms like this, 

14 although they're lovely, the acoustics 

15 sometimes don't work as well. 

16 As I indicated in prior cases, if 

17 the court reporter raises her hand, that's 

18 your cue to spell whatever it is you just said 

19 so that three days from now she's not beating 

20 her head against the wall trying to figure out 

21 what we're talking about. 

22 I can't think of anything else. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 Mr. Harper, 1n looking at Exhibit 

2 6 it looks like somebody may have put the 

3 exhibit in backwards because you've got page 

4 7-1 at the end and B-12 at the front. As you 

5 know, the Court's going to take judicial 

6 notice, so it's harmless. 

7 MR. HARPER: That is backwards. I 

8 apologize for that, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I was 

10 looking for a three-hole punch, but I couldn't 

11 find one. But, anyway, if that's the biggest 

12 problem we have today, I think we're going to 

13 live through it. 

14 We're going to break about noon 

15 for lunch. I have a conference call I've got 

16 to take at 2:30 so we may take an extended 

17 break at 2:30. I'm going to try to get off 

18 the call as quick as possible. 

19 As I indicated, at 4:30 wherever 

20 we are we're going to stop testimony, so I'm 

21 going to ask the two of you to keep an eye on 

22 your witnesses, and if you get to a logical 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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1 breaking point between 4:00 and 4:30, I would 

2 invite you to break at that point and we can 

3 resume tomorrow. 

4 I've got a courtroom through 

5 Thursday, and I can get one Friday if we need 

6 it. Just so you know, we're here today. 

7 We're someplace else tomorrow. As I jokingly 

8 said, it's a test to see whether we can keep 

9 up with changes. 

10 If there are no other preliminary 

11 matters, Mr. Harper, do you want to make an 

12 opening? 

13 MR. DWORKIN: I do have one, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sir. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: In the trial brief 

17 that I submitted to the Court a few moments 

18 ago before we went on the record, I just 

19 discovered a typographical error. And on page 

2 0 6 where I refer to, about a quarter of the way 

21 down the page, FAA-2011-0486, that should be 

22 FAA-2011-0485. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you for 

5 bringing that up. 

6 Mr. Harper, anything else? 

7 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor, just 

8 opening statement. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

10 MR. HARPER: These three cases 

11 involve miscounting baggage being loaded on a 

12 SkyWest aircraft and the resulting operation 

13 of those aircraft by SkyWest with inaccurate 

14 weight and balance information. Each case 

15 alleged violations of 14 CFR 192.5 golf 1n 

16 that SkyWest operates an air carrier 1n 

17 violation of its operations specifications; 

18 119.5 lima in that SkyWest operated the 

19 aircraft 1n violation of its operation 

20 specifications; and 121.693 Alpha, Charlie, 

21 Delta, in that it operated aircraft with 

22 inaccurate load manifests, total aircraft 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 weight not computed under applicable 

2 procedures and not loading according to 

3 approved schedule. 

4 Case No. FAA-2011-0485 concerns 

5 three flights. The first is SkyWest Flight 

6 4569 taking place November 22, 2010, from 

7 Billings, Montana to Salt Lake City. The 

8 second is SkyWest Flight 6692 taking place 

9 December 14, 2010, from Los Angeles to San 

10 Diego. The third is SkyWest Flight 4800 

11 taking place on December 15, 2010, from Los 

12 Angeles to San Diego. 

13 In its answers SkyWest admitted 

14 all the factual allegations in the case with 

15 the exception of Nos. 18, 22, and 26 which 

16 alleged the number of bags actually loaded 

17 onto those flights. In that case there is, 1n 

18 essence, one factual issue in dispute, which 

19 is how many bags were actually loaded onto the 

20 aircraft. 

21 As with all these cases, SkyWest's 

22 affirmative defenses have put into question 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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1 the appropriateness of the sanction the FAA 

2 seeks in the case which for 0485 works up to 

3 $32,000 per flight. 

4 Case No. FAA-2011-0486 involves 

5 one flight, Flight 6573, taking place November 

6 17, 2010, from Denver to Napa Valley, 

7 Colorado. On December 2, 2011 you granted a 

8 Motion for Decision on the question of 

9 liability. Thus, the only thing we're going 

10 to be discussing here today is the question of 

11 what an appropriate sanction is . 

12 And the l a s t c a s e 

13 FAA-2011-0680/799 concerns one flight, SkyWest 

14 Flight 4451, taking place on February 15, 

15 2011, from Salt Lake City to Casper, Wyoming. 

16 In its answer SkyWest again admitted all the 

17 factual allegations with the exception of No. 

18 11, which relates to the number of bags that 

19 were actually located on the aircraft. As 

2 0 before, that's the only factual dispute in the 

21 case. As with all the other cases, we are 

22 here mainly to discuss the appropriate 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 sanction. And for this case, as Your Honor 

2 expounded upon earlier today, the double 

3 docketing issue. Essentially today FAA will be 

4 putting on evidence of how many bags and how 

5 we count the number of bags. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 

7 you want to reserve? 

8 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, I will, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

11 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls ASI 

12 McKenna. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: While he's 

14 approaching the stand, let me reiterate what 

15 I said in the prior hearing. As all Counsel 

16 know, everything we do here today to goes on 

17 the Internet. I know I repeat this in every 

18 case, but it's important enough that I think 

19 we need to repeat it and put it on the record. 

20 Consequently, please review your exhibits to 

21 make sure there's no personal identifying 

22 information on the exhibits: No home 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 addresses, phone numbers, cell numbers, dates 

2 of birth, Social Security numbers, or anything 

3 else. 

4 When a witness testifies, I prefer 

5 they use a business address and phone number. 

6 I don't feel it's necessary. I know as 

7 attorneys we're all used to doing it as 

8 foundational issue. You don't have to if you 

9 don't want to. 

10 If we get to a point where 

11 anything in any of these discussions even 

12 looks like it's going towards a security 

13 1ssue, I would suggest that we seal all or a 

14 portion of that record. We live 1n an 

15 environment where we can't have all this 

16 information floating around on the Internet. 

17 I prefer to error towards safety and, you 

18 know, sealing the record as opposed to letting 

19 something get out inadvertently. 

20 It happens all the time. We 

21 inadvertently leave something in a document 

22 that shouldn't be there. I review it. Ms . 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Matthews and Mr. Liebowitz both review it. If 

2 we pick up something, we'll line through it 

3 and let you know. But just keep that in mind 

4 as we go through this. 

5 Sir, stand and raise your right 

6 hand. 

7 (Witness sworn.) 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

9 State your full name for the 

10 record and spell your first and last name. 

11 THE WITNESS: James McKenna, 

12 J-A-M-E-S. Last name McKenna, M-C, capital 

13 K-E-N-N-A. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

15 MR. HARPER: Yes, sir. Before we 

16 go any further I neglected to ask that we 

17 invoke the rule and sequester the witnesses. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. What that 

19 means 1s any of the witnesses that are going 

2 0 to testify I'm going to ask you to step out in 

21 the hallway. Don't go wandering around the 

22 courtroom [verbatim] You're not to discuss 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 your testimony with anybody during the course 

2 of the hearing. And the rule on sequestration 

3 will apply all witnesses. 

4 Having said that, each side is 

5 entitled to have a technical witness with him, 

6 either at the bench-- I'm sorry, at the table 

7 or 1n the courtroom. Mr. Harper has one 

8 sitting with him. 

9 Mr. Dworkin, you're also entitled 

10 to have one sit with you in the back. Anybody 

11 who is going to testify other than the witness 

12 on the stand, I'm going to ask you to step out 

13 of the courtroom. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, must we? 

15 I mean, we're dealing with honorable people on 

16 both sides. I think the chances of somebody' s 

17 testimony being poisoned or altered or in any 

18 way influenced by another witness on the stand 

19 is virtually nonexistent. 

20 SkyWest and the FAA, all these 

21 people know each other. They work with each 

22 other on a day-to-day basis. They have a 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 cooperative working relationship. This hearing 

2 is basically an agreement to disagree on 

3 certain issues, and I really don't think that 

4 sequestration is really necessary. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

6 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 

7 be more comfortable if we did sequester the 

8 witnesses. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is no 

10 reflection on anybody. This is something 

11 that's done as a matter of standard 1n a lot 

12 of cases. 

13 So I respect your argument, Mr. 

14 Dworkin, but my policy is usually if one 

15 counsel asks, I ask that any witnesses just 

16 wait outside. 

17 MR . DWORKIN : We will ask Mr. 

18 Barclay to stay, if you want. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, they 

20 can sit 1n the pews or they can sit with you. 

21 I don't care where the technical witness sits. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: All SkyWest's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 witnesses just hang around so we can find you. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I was 1n a 

3 courtroom 1n Seattle, as I mentioned in the 

4 last case, we were halfway through the 

5 afternoon -- and, Mr. Dworkin, I think you've 

6 been there. All of a sudden all the lights go 

7 out. Everybody was looking at each other. I 

8 thought I had done something. It turns out 

9 the lights are on a motion detector. So it's 

10 the only case I've had, Mr. Dworkin, where I 

11 ordered counsel to keep moving . 

12 MR. DWORKIN: I had a case in 

13 Stockton, California, many years ago. It was 

14 an all electronic courtroom. All the counsel 

15 tables, the judge, the witness -- everything 

16 was hot mic'd. If you needed to say something 

17 to your client or to co-counsel, you had to 

18 push a mute button, otherwise everything was 

19 on the record. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. That's --

21 been there, done that. And in Seattle you 

22 push a button the shades go up, they turn --

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1 you know. I don't touch buttons. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: I notice that there 

3 are a lot of FAA people here today. They're 

4 observers? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: They're observers. 

6 They heard you were going to be in town, Mr. 

7 Dworkin. That's why they're all here. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

9 MR. HARPER: All the witnesses I 

10 anticipate calling have 1n fact left. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. 

12 JAMES MCKENNA, 

13 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

14 was examined and testified as follows: 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. HARPER: 

17 Q Mr. McKenna, could you please 

18 describe your aviation background? 

19 A I have a little over 25 years 1n 

2 0 aviation. Four of those were military and 

21 maintenance. I have another 16 years in the 

22 industry, both as maintenance and quality 

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1 assurance and Part 121 1 as well as another 

2 five years ln a regulatory authority working 

3 for the FAA. 

4 Q Do you hold any airman 

5 certificates? 

6 A Yes/ I do. 

7 Q What certificates do you hold? 

8 A An airframe and a Powerplant 

9 certificate. 

10 Q What do you currently do for a 

11 living? 

12 A I 1 m currently assigned to the 

13 SkyWest Certificate Management Office here in 

14 Salt Lake City where I am an aviation safety 

15 inspector ln the ASI. Primarily I conduct 

16 surveillance activities 1 SkyWest Airlines 

17 maintenance and inspection program/ whether 

18 they 1 re performing it or they have someone 

19 else contracted to do it. 

20 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

21 SkyWest in any capacity? 

22 A No 1 slr . 

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1 Q Are you familiar with the 

2 violations in FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060033 

3 before this Court as FDMS Nos. 

4 FAA-2011-0680/0779? 

5 A Yes, sir, I am. 

6 Q How are you familiar with them? 

7 A I initiated the 0033 one. 

8 Q How did they come to your -- how 

9 did the alleged violations come to your 

10 attention? 

11 A I was assigned to do surveillance 

12 in Casper, Wyoming, for an element performance 

13 inspection for cargo loading and at which time 

14 I conducted surveillance up there and I walked 

15 away with some discrepancy. 

16 Q What 1s an element performance 

17 inspection? 

18 A An element performance inspection 

19 is a data collection tool that the FAA uses to 

2 0 oversee the air carrier where they look at the 

21 requirements of their manual, whether or not 

22 they're meeting the requirements of their 

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1 manual, the design of the system that they 

2 actually put out for their personnel to 

3 utilize. And so we just go verify that it 

4 actually 1s doing what it's supposed to do by 

5 observing activities of the personnel 

6 performing those duties. 

7 Q Did you perform that element of 

8 performance inspection on SkyWest Flight 4451 

9 taking place on February 15, 2011? 

10 A 2000 -- it was 2011, but it was 

11 February 15th. Yes, I did . 

12 Q And 1n performing that element 

13 performance inspection, what did you actually 

14 do? What was the process you went through to 

15 complete that inspection? 

16 A We wait for inbound aircraft to 

17 come 1n, also outbound, but this one I was 

18 looking at an inbound aircraft. We usually 

19 brief the personnel that are there that were 

20 conducting surveillance. So the day that 

21 aircraft came in, I walked out on the ramp 

22 when it came into Casper. I observed them 

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1 offloading the cargo out of the F cargo pit, 

2 and then I compared that against the cargo 

3 loader report, the CLR, which I obtained from 

4 the flight crew and debriefed -- debriefed the 

5 crews after I accomplished that. 

6 Q So, in essence, one of the things 

7 you did was counted the number of bags as they 

8 came off the aircraft. 

9 A Yes. I counted each and every bag 

10 that comes off. They have checked bags and 

11 they have carry- on bags. I usually use a 

12 notebook where I do tallies as I go through 

13 and then I count them and I match them up with 

14 this Cargo Load Report which I obtained. 

15 Q Did you do that for this flight? 

16 A Yes, I did more than likely 

17 because that's the system that I use. 

18 Q How many bag did how many 

19 standard -- heavy bags did you count com1ng 

20 off Flight 4451? 

21 A One. 

22 Q And how did you recognize that 

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1 that bag was a heavy bag? 

2 A It had a heavy tag assigned to it. 

3 Q Did you take any pictures that 

4 day? 

5 A I did. 

6 Q There's a binder in front of you. 

7 If I could ask you to turn to the tab marked 

8 as C-1. 

9 MR. HARPER: A copy of this binder 

10 has been previously provided to the Court, the 

11 court reporter, and opposing counsel . 

12 A I have it. 

13 Q Do you recognize this document? 

14 A Yes, I do. 

15 Q What 1s it? 

16 A It's a photograph of the one heavy 

17 bag, of the check tag on this as well as the 

18 heavy bag tag that was assigned to it. 

19 Q Did you take this photograph? 

20 A I did. 

21 Q How do you know that you took this 

22 photograph? 

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1 A Well, not only just remember it 

2 from Casper, but I also have my signature on 

3 the back verifying that I was the one who 

4 actually took the picture. 

5 Q Does this photograph fairly and 

6 accurately depict the bag as you a saw it on 

7 that date? 

8 A Yes. 

9 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the 

10 Government would offer Complainant's 1 for 

11 identification as Complainant's 1 . 

12 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 1 

14 for identification is received into evidence 

15 as Complainant's 1. 

16 (EXHIBIT NO. C-1 WAS RECEIVED.) 

17 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. McKenna, was 

18 this bag counted for on the weight and balance 

19 information for Flight 443? 

20 A No, sir, it was not. 

21 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

22 Your Honor . 

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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

3 Q You said you counted the bags that 

4 were coming -- you said you were counting the 

5 bags that were coming off the aircraft? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q And you recorded these 1n a 

8 notebook of some sort? 

9 A Yes, s1r. 

10 Q Do you have the notebook? 

11 A No, sir. 

12 Q What did you do with the notebook? 

13 A After I do surveillance 

14 activities, I usually get rid of all the 

15 notes. Like when this happened right here, I 

16 took all the notes that I need and I wrote it 

17 down and we put an IO on it. 

18 Q Put a what? 

19 A We sent a letter to the carrier 

20 notifying them of this discrepancy. 

21 Q You mean a letter of investigation 

22 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q -- an LOI. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Then you opened up the EIR. 

5 A Yeah. 

6 Q Okay. So this was what type of 

7 aircraft that had come into Casper? 

8 A It was a CRJ. 

9 Q And was this the 50-seat CRJ or 

10 was it the larger CRJ? 

11 A I 'm not sure . I looked at the 

12 cargo bin on that one. I'd have to look at 

13 the tail number and verify it. I think it's 

14 through the registration. 

15 Q Do you know how many people were 

16 on the airplane? 

17 A No, s1r, I do not. 

18 Q And what was the total number of 

19 bags on the airplane? 

20 A I'd have to look at the CLR to 

21 determine that. 

22 Q Okay. So as you sit here today, 

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1 you have no recollection as to the numbers of 

2 bags that came off the airplane. 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q All you can recall as you sit here 

5 today is that there was one heavy bag that did 

6 not appear on the CLR as a heavy bag, but it 

7 appeared as a standard bag. 

8 A Yes, sir. It was not assigned on 

9 the CLR as being identified as a heavy bag. 

10 The actual count on the CLR was correct, but 

11 the bag was not identified as a heavy bag . 

12 Q Okay. And under SkyWest's Weight 

13 and Balance Program, standard bags are 

14 considered to weigh 3 0 pounds. Is that 

15 correct? 

16 A I'm not sure of that. 

17 Q You're not sure what the weights 

18 are. 

19 A No, sir. 

20 Q Do you what are the weights 

21 that heavy bags are assigned? 

22 A I'm not sure on that either. 

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1 Q Do you know the differential 

2 between standard bags and heavy bags under the 

3 SkyWest average weights program? 

4 A I'm sorry. I don't understand the 

5 question. 

6 Q Well, heavy bags are assigned X 

7 weight. Standard bags are assigned Y weight. 

8 Do you know what the difference in pounds is 

9 between X and Y? 

10 A No, sir, I do not. 

11 Q Did you -- in the course of your 

12 investigation did you make a determination as 

13 to who the person was who filled out the CLR? 

14 A I do not believe that I made that 

15 determination, no, sir. 

16 Q Did you interview the people who 

17 loaded the aircraft? 

18 A No, s1r, I did not. 

19 Q So all you saw was baggage coming 

20 off. 

21 A Yes. Baggage coming off and the 

22 completed Cargo Load Report, yes. 

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1 Q And the completed Cargo Load 

2 Report was given to you by the flight crew. 

3 A Yes, s1r. 

4 Q Now, is the Cargo Load Report a 

5 record that's required to be kept or 

6 maintained under the federal aviation 

7 regulations? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q Do you know what the disposition 

10 of the CLR is, or the Cargo Load Report is, 

11 under SkyWest's Weight and Balance Program? 

12 A No, sir, I do not. 

13 Q Did you compare the CLR with the 

14 actual load manifest on the airplane? 

15 A I do not recall that, no. I 

16 looked at the bags coming off and compared it 

17 to the Cargo Load Report. 

18 Q So as you sit here today, you 

19 don't know if the weights that were entered in 

20 the CLR ended up in the load manifest for the 

21 aircraft. 

22 A As I sit here now, no. 

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1 Q Do you know what the gross takeoff 

2 weight of the aircraft was? 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q So as you sit here today, you have 

5 no idea whatsoever as to whether or not this 

6 difference between a standard bag or heavy bag 

7 ln any way affected the weight of the 

8 aircraft. 

9 A No, slr. 

10 Q While you were at Casper were 

11 there any other aircraft that you looked at 

12 for the purpose of counting baggage? 

13 A I don't recall. 

14 Q And you have no recollection as to 

15 how many bags you counted that day? 

16 A No, slr. I'd have to look at the 

17 Cargo Load Report. 

18 Q Do you recall what time of day 

19 this was? 

20 A No, sir. 

21 Q In connection with your 

22 withdraw that. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

2 questions. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

5 BY MR. HARPER: 

6 Q Mr. McKenna, where were you 

7 standing in relation to the aircraft when you 

8 counted the bags? 

9 A At the end of the baggage loader, 

10 belt loader. 

11 Q Was it daytime that day? 

12 A Yes, slr. 

13 Q Did you have a clear view? Was 

14 your view obstructed in any way of the bags 

15 coming off the aircraft? 

16 A No, sir. 

17 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: No recross. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

20 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

21 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

22 hearing. You may step down. It's up to 

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1 Counsel for the FAA whether you're free to go 

2 or not. 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

6 calls Yvonne Huymh. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to go 

8 get her? 

9 MR. HARPER: I'm sorry? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I assume she's out 

11 of the room. Do you want somebody to go get 

12 her? 

13 Stand and raise your right hand. 

14 (Witness sworn.) 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

16 State your full name for the 

17 record and spell your first and last name. 

18 THE WITNESS: Yvonne C. Huymh, 

19 Y-V-0-N-N-E, last name H-U-Y-M-H. 

20 YVONNE C. HUYMH, 

21 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

22 was examined and testified as follows: 

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. HARPER: 

3 Q Ms. Huymh, could you please 

4 describe your aviation background? 

5 A I have a little over 27 years 1n 

6 aviation. I start as aircraft assembler for 

7 two years and then went to Roy Industries for 

8 15 years. At Roy Industries I have various 

9 positions such as quality assurance inspector, 

10 designees like DIMR, DAR. And the last 

11 position I have before I left the company I 

12 was chief inspector, and then I joined the FAA 

13 for 10 years. 

14 Q What office are you assigned to 

15 with the FAA? 

16 A I'm currently assigned to SkyWest 

17 Certificate Management Office. 

18 Q And what position do you hold 

19 there? 

20 A I'm currently assigned as the 

21 principal avionics inspector. 

22 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

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1 SkyWest 1n any capacity? 

2 A I haven't. 

3 Q Could you please briefly describe 

4 your duties as the principal avionics 

5 inspector? 

6 A My duty and responsibility as the 

7 principal inspector -- I oversee and monitor 

8 the surveillance activities, tracking the 

9 results, reviewing the results of surveillance 

10 and work with the principal maintenance to 

11 decide what appropriate action to take . 

12 Q Did you perform surveillance on 

13 any SkyWest Airlines flights taking place on 

14 December 14, 2010? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Where did that surveillance take 

17 place? 

18 A At SkyWest live station in 

19 Lindbergh Field, San Diego. 

20 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, for the 

21 record, we're discussing the violations case 

22 FDMS No. 2011-0485 . 

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1 Q (By MR. HARPER) What was the 

2 purpose of that surveillance? 

3 A I was assigned to perform a 

4 ConDOR, which meant constructed dynamic 

5 observation report. More specific task to 

6 perform, it spell out exactly what need to be 

7 inspect at certain location. 

8 Q Did you perform this inspection on 

9 Flight 6692? 

10 A Yes, I did. 

11 Q And what exactly did you actually 

12 do 1n the performance of that ConDOR 

13 surveillance? 

14 A The ConDOR requires us -- me to 

15 perform a cargo handling which I checking on 

16 the cargo load by counting the baggage that 

17 that flight came in from. 

18 Q Where were you standing when you 

19 counted the bags that came off Flight 6692? 

20 A I approached to the cargo door 

21 with the SkyWest ramp personnel present at the 

22 same time . And as soon as the cargo door 

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1 opened, the cargo load reaching the door, 

2 myself and SkyWest ramp personnel start 

3 counting the bag off the cargo bin. 

4 Q How many standard bags did you 

5 count coming off Flight 6692? 

6 A Counted quite back ago. Can I 

7 take a look at the inspector statement for 

8 sure? 

9 Q Certainly, if you can give me a 

10 moment to track that down. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure . 

12 MR. HARPER: Showing opposing 

13 counsel. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

15 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

16 approach? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Give it to 

18 the Court for a second. Since it's going to 

19 be referred to, I'm going to mark this as 

20 Complainant 8 for identification. 

21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, if I 

22 could ask that you make that Complainant 100 

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1 just to make sure we're clear. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's a 

3 frightening thought. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: That's okay. We'll 

5 start at R1000. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You notice he 

7 brought a large book into the courtroom. The 

8 last time I had a case like this I only had 

9 500 exhibits. 

10 Q (By MR. HARPER) If you could just 

11 look at your statement and read it to 

12 yourself. When you're done if you could hand 

13 it back to me. 

14 Do you now recall how many bags 

15 you counted? 

16 A Standard bag, 19. 

17 Q Did you count any heavy bags 

18 coming off the aircraft? 

19 A Yes, one bag. 

20 Q How did you recognize that that 

21 bag was a heavy bag? 

22 A In addition to the standard bar 

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1 code wide tag, there's an orange tag have the 

2 word "heavy" on it. 

3 Q Did you have a clear unobstructed 

4 view of the baggage as it came off the 

5 aircraft? 

6 A Yes, I did. 

7 Q And how did you keep track of the 

8 number of bags that were com1ng off the 

9 aircraft? 

10 A I have my planner always with me 

11 when I go out and do surveillance, and I mark 

12 it on my planner as I count. 

13 Q Did you use that document to 

14 prepare your inspector's statement that you 

15 just referred to? 

16 A I do not have it. 

17 Q I understand you don't have it 

18 here today. What I'm asking is: Did you use 

19 it to prepare your inspector's statement? 

20 A Yes, I did. 

21 Q Did anyone else count the bags on 

22 Flight 6692? 

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1 A Yes. The SkyWest ramp personnel. 

2 Q Did they -- how many of them were 

3 there? 

4 A There's two. 

5 Q Did they agree or disagree with 

6 your count? 

7 A They agreed. 

8 Q Are you also familiar with 

9 violations relating to Flight 4800? 

10 A Yes, I did. 

11 Q Did you perform a surveillance on 

12 that flight? 

13 A Yes, I did. 

14 Q As part of that surveillance, did 

15 you count the bags that came off Flight 4800? 

16 A Yes, I did. 

17 Q Did that surveillance take place 

18 December 15, 2010? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Where did it take place? 

21 A At the same location, SkyWest live 

22 station in Lindbergh Field, San Diego. 

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1 Q Was this the same inspection you 

2 performed on Flight 6692, the ConDOR 

3 inspection for cargo handling? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Did you count the bags being 

6 offloaded from that aircraft? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q How many standard bags did you 

9 count being taken off of Flight 4800? 

10 A May I take a look at another 

11 inspector statement? 

12 Q Certainly. 

13 MR. HARPER: I'm showing oppos1ng 

14 counsel the inspector statement which was 

15 previously provided in discovery. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: This lS Mr. 

17 Reynolds' statement? 

18 MR. HARPER: It is. 

19 Permission to approach, Your 

20 Honor? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

22 We'll mark that as Complainant 101 

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1 for identification. This lS Exhibit 

2 Complainant's 101 for identification. 

3 MR. HARPER: I'm showing Ms. Huymh 

4 inspector statement that she requested. 

5 Q (By MR. HARPER) If you could just 

6 read that to yourself and look up when you're 

7 done. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Thank you, ma'am. I'm taking it 

10 back. 

11 Ms. Huymh, do you now recall how 

12 many bags were unloaded from Flight 4800? 

13 A Forty-three standard. 

14 Q And did you count any heavy bags 

15 coming off Flight 4800? 

16 A Yes, four bags. 

17 Q Again how did you recognize that 

18 those bags were heavy bags? 

19 A Same, with the heavy orange tag. 

20 Q Were there any plane-side 

21 valet/service items that came off Flight 4800? 

22 A Yes . 

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1 Q How many? 

2 A There was 12. 

3 MR. HARPER: Thank you. 

4 No further questions, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

8 Q Ms. Huymh, let's let's talk 

9 about December 14, 2010. This flight 6692. 

10 What time of day did this occur? 

11 A It was in the morning, close to 

12 probably around 9:00, 10:00 or -- I'm not 

13 really sure as far back ago. 

14 Q Were there other SkyWest planes on 

15 the ramp at the time? 

16 A I think normally only one flight 

17 come in at the time at that station. 

18 Q So this is the only aircraft that 

19 you observed being unloaded. Is that correct? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Are you familiar with SkyWest' s 

22 Weight and Balance Program? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Standard bags under the average 

3 weights program are given what weight? 

4 A Up to 50 pounds. 

5 Q Standard bags up to 50 pounds? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And but for purposes of the 

8 average weights program, are they assigned a 

9 particular weight? 

10 A The standard bag is up to 50 

11 pounds, and then the heavy bag is from 50 to 

12 100. Then if it's more than 100 it belongs 

13 considered as a cargo. 

14 Q Okay. But under the average 

15 weights program are these standard bags and 

16 heavy bags assigned a particular weight for 

17 flight planning purposes? 

18 A I do not know exactly how the 

19 flight crew calculated. 

20 Q In connection with your 

21 investigation did you look into who the people 

22 were who loaded this airplane and who filled 

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1 out the CLR? 

2 A Happened that this flight came 

3 from LAX and what I witnessed when I'm 

4 counting the bag is they offload. The Cargo 

5 Load Report already done at the other 

6 location. At the San Diego live station 

7 there's only uploaded the bag [verbatim]. 

8 Q You didn't investigate who loaded 

9 the aircraft and who filled out the CLR? 

10 A No, sir. 

11 Q All you know 1s that the flight 

12 came 1n from Los Angeles? 

13 A Yes. Actually after I count the 

14 bag and compare the total of the bag to 

15 quantity, then we talk to the supervisor. 

16 Q This Flight 6692, this was being 

17 operated by SkyWest as a United Express 

18 flight. Is that correct? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Okay. So with respect to the 

21 loading of the aircraft at Los Angeles, 

22 because that's where the flight came from, and 

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1 with respect to the CLR, did you make any 

2 determination as to whether the aircraft was 

3 loaded by SkyWest people at Los Angeles or by 

4 United people at Los Angeles? 

5 A I do not have any idea on that. 

6 Q And ln the course of your 

7 investigation did you make any determination 

8 as to whether it was SkyWest people at Los 

9 Angeles or United people at Los Angeles who 

10 completed the CLR? 

11 MR. HARPER: Objection, Your 

12 Honor. Relevance. SkyWest admitted they were 

13 the operators of this flight and, therefore, 

14 any violations are their responsibility. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Object ion was 

17 overruled? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Objection is 

19 overruled. 

20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) You may answer the 

21 question. 

22 A I do not know. 

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1 Q And with respect to the -- and so 

2 actually you observed these number of bags 

3 coming off the airplane and presumably the 

4 number of bags coming off the airplane equaled 

5 the number of bags that were put on the 

6 airplane. Is that correct? 

7 A I did. 

8 Q We're acting on that assumption? 

9 A It's supposed to, but I do not 

10 assume. I actually count. 

11 Q Okay. So you don't know how many 

12 bags were actually put on the aircraft at Los 

13 Angeles. Is that correct? 

14 A Yes, I did not know. 

15 Q Let's go to Flight 4800 on 

16 December 15th. Again this was the only 

17 aircraft that you had checked on that day? 

18 A No, sir. I did several flights, 

19 but only this flight was the one that had 

20 discrepancy. 

21 Q Okay. So how many other flights 

22 were there that had no discrepancies? 

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1 A Two I don't really can't 

2 recall exactly how many. 

3 Q And again this was a flight that 

4 originated in Los Angeles. Is that correct? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q And although you counted the 

7 number of bags coming off the aircraft, you 

8 don't know how many bags were actually loaded 

9 at Los Angeles. Correct? 

10 A I know by looking at the Cargo 

11 Load Report . 

12 Q Okay. And you don' t know who 

13 loaded the aircraft, whether it was SkyWest or 

14 United people. Is that correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And you don' t know who prepared 

17 the CLR? 

18 A I don't know. 

19 Q And you didn't make any attempt to 

20 find out who those people were or to contact 

21 them 1n connection with your investigation. 

22 Is that correct? 

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1 MR. HARPER: Just for the record, 

2 the witness shook her head to indicate a 

3 negative response. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have -- you 

5 have to respond orally. 

6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's okay. 

8 Q (By MR. HARPER) And as I -- as I 

9 total up Flight 4800, what you observed, 

10 between the 43 standard bags and the four 

11 heavy bags and the 12 valet bags and the COMAT 

12 one bag, that totals 60. Is that correct? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And the CLR showed 60 bags. It 

15 just accounted for the wrong number of 

16 standard bags and didn't account for the heavy 

17 bags or the valet bags. Is that correct? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q The total number was the same. 

20 It's just that they didn't break down the 

21 classification. Correct? 

22 A I have -- sorry. I have to look 

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1 at the inspector's statement in order to 

2 really know exactly the number. 

3 Q Do you have it? 

4 A No. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

6 approach, Your Honor? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

8 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) This 1s actually 

9 Mr. Reynolds' statement. You were with Mr. 

10 Reynolds that day. Correct? 

11 A Yes. 

12 MR. HARPER: Mr. Dworkin, if I 

13 gave you Mr. Reynolds' statement, I gave you 

14 the wrong one. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, this is her 

16 statement. I'm sorry. December 14 oh, 

17 December 15th. 

18 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'm showing you 

19 what's been marked as Exhibit C-101. And you 

20 were with-- this is Mr. Reynolds' statement. 

21 Is that correct? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q You were with Mr. Reynolds on that 

2 day, on December 15th? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And you concurred with Mr. 

5 Reynolds' calculations as to the numbers of 

6 bags that came off the airplane? 

7 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat? 

8 Q Did you agree with Mr. Reynolds' 

9 totals as to the number of bags that came off 

10 the airplane? 

11 A Yes, I did. 

12 Q Okay. So as I add up the 

13 offloaded bags 43 standard, four heavy 

14 checked, 12 plane side, and one COMAT 

15 that's 60 bags. Is that correct? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And the CLR listed 59 standard 

18 checked, one COMAT, and you total that and you 

19 get 60 bags. Is that correct? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q So apparently whoever filled out 

22 the CLR forgot to differentiate the heavy bags 

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1 and the valet bags and simply treated them all 

2 as standard bags. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Yes? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Now, under the under the 

7 SkyWest Weight and Balance Program, is it not 

8 true that the weights of plane-side valet bags 

9 and standard checked bags are the same? 

10 A I'm not sure on that, sir. 

11 Q So as you sit here today, you 

12 cannot testify as to any weight differential 

13 in the aircraft between what came off the 

14 aircraft and what was recorded in the CLR. Is 

15 that correct? 

16 A I am calculating as the weight of 

17 individual category as standard, heavy, and 

18 valet. And I do not calculate it into the 

19 operation side of the house 

20 Q Okay. So --

21 A that the flight crews --

22 Q So you don't know what numbers the 

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1 flight crew used 1n computing their load 

2 manifest and in computing the aircraft 

3 performance data for the flight. Is that 

4 correct? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q And did you get the CLRs from the 

7 flight crew? 

8 A I did not inspect. Reynolds did. 

9 Q How about on the previous day, on 

10 December 14th, did you get the CLR from the 

11 flight crew? 

12 A The same thing Inspector 

13 Reynolds did. 

14 Q Did you actually see the CLRs? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Okay. So Mr. Reynolds showed you 

17 the CLRs? 

18 A Yes, sir. 

19 Q Did you compute the weight and 

20 balance for this flight of December 15th? 

21 A I did not, s1r. 

22 Q Did you compute the weight and 

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1 balance for the previous day's flight on 

2 December 14th? 

3 A May I try to understand the word 

4 "compute"? Is that calculate? 

5 Q Calculate, yes. 

6 A For the flight or just for what I 

7 count? 

8 Q For the entire flight. Did you 

9 calculate the weight and balance for the 

10 flights of December 14 and December 15? 

11 A I did not. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

13 questions. Thank you. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

15 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

16 Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ma'am, I'm going 

18 to instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

19 with anyone during the pendency of the 

20 hearing, that means while the hearing is going 

21 on. It's up to Counsel whether you have to 

22 remain in the area, but you're excused. You 

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1 can step down. 

2 Mr. Harper? 

3 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. FAA 

4 would like to call Mr. Gehring. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just leave that 

6 there. Thank you. 

7 Counsel, I'll leave it to you 

8 whether you want to retrieve the exhibits or 

9 not. 

10 Sir, approach. Stand up and raise 

11 your right hand . 

12 (Witness sworn. ) 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

14 State your name for the record and spell your 

15 first and last name. 

16 THE WITNESS: My name is Wendell 

17 Gehring. First name is W-E-N-D-E-L-L. Last 

18 name is Gehring G-E-H-R-I-N-G. 

19 WENDELL "SKEETER" GEHRING, 

20 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

21 was examined and testified as follows: 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

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1 BY MR. HARPER: 

2 Q Mr. Gehring, could you please 

3 describe your aviation background? 

4 A Yes, sir. I started in general 

5 aviation 1976. I gained employment with Delta 

6 Airlines ln 1988. And then I was -- as a 

7 supervisor in quality, and then I gained 

8 employment with the FAA in 2009. 

9 Q Do you hold any airmen 

10 certificates? 

11 A Yes, sir. I hold a maintenance 

12 A&P rating, Airframe and Powerplant rating. 

13 I also hold flight ratings of commercial 

14 instrument and multi-handling land ratings. 

15 Q What do you currently do for a 

16 living? 

17 A I'm an aviation safety inspector 

18 for the SkyWest CMO located here in Salt Lake 

19 City. 

20 Q What do your duties involve? 

21 A My duties involve air carrier 

22 certificate management, as an assistant to the 

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1 PMI in maintenance, surveillance and all the 

2 other functions that are in the FAA which is 

3 investigating occurrences and doing oversight 

4 of the SkyWest. 

5 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest in 

6 any capacity? 

7 A No, sir. 

8 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

9 SkyWest Airlines? 

10 A No, s1r. 

11 Q Are you familiar with the 

12 violations in FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011 

13 before this Court as DMS No. FAA-2011-0485? 

14 A Yes, s1r. 

15 Q How are you familiar with the 

16 allegations in the case? 

17 A I conducted the some of the 

18 surveillance and then also I put together the 

19 case. 

20 Q Did you perform surveillance on 

21 Flight 4659 taking place on November 22, 2010? 

22 A Yes, sir. 

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1 Q Where did you perform that 

2 surveillance? 

3 A That was at the Salt Lake City 

4 International Airport. 

5 Q What was the purpose of the 

6 surveillance in Salt Lake City? 

7 A The surveillance was a constructed 

8 door which is a dynamic observation report 

9 which is put together by the -- the PMI, the 

10 principal maintenance inspector. Principle 

11 operations inspectors have that option to 

12 design a task, surveillance task, a specific 

13 task that you go and do. 

14 Q What did this specific task 

15 requ1re you to do? 

16 A The instructions for this task 

17 were to were to look at the cargo and the 

18 baggage systems at SkyWest Airlines at the 

19 airport at the -- specifically at Salt Lake 

20 City. 

21 Q Did you count the bags that came 

22 off of Flight 4659? 

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1 A Yes, sir, I did. 

2 Q How did you keep track of the 

3 numbers of bags that came off Flight 4659? 

4 A I count them out loud, but I have 

5 a mechanical counter I also keep on my -- on 

6 my finger which latches the numbers and as 

7 they came off, and then I put the two numbers 

8 together to verify that I didn't miscount in 

9 my head. 

10 Q Where were you standing when you 

11 counted the bags? 

12 A Basically straight underneath the 

13 inlet of the No. 1 engine where the cargo load 

14 -- loader comes up and goes right into the 

15 cargo compartment. 

16 Q Were there any obstructions to 

17 your ability to see bags coming off the 

18 aircraft? 

19 A No, s1r. 

20 Q How many standard bags did you 

21 count coming off Flight 4659? 

22 A Standard bags were 38, s1r. 

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1 Q And how many heavy bags came off 

2 Flight 4659? 

3 A Two bags. 

4 Q How did you recognize that those 

5 bags were heavy bags? 

6 A The policies and procedures 

7 they put an orangish tag on it that says heavy 

8 bag. 

9 Q Did you take any pictures that 

10 day? 

11 A Yes, sir, I did. 

12 Q There's a binder in front of you. 

13 If I could ask you to flip to the tab marked 

14 C-2. Do you recognize this document? 

15 A Yes, sir. It's a photograph I 

16 took. 

17 Q And what's it a photograph of? 

18 A It's a photograph of one of the 

19 heavy bags that came off that flight. 

20 Q Does it fairly and accurately 

21 depict that bag as it came off the aircraft as 

22 you saw it that day? 

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1 A Yes, sir. 

2 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

3 wishes to have what's been marked as 

4 Complainant's Exhibit C-2 into evidence as 

5 Exhibit C-2. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 2 

9 for identification is received into evidence 

10 as Complainant's 2. 

11 (EXHIBIT NO. C-2 WAS RECEIVED.) 

12 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, could 

13 you please look to the tab marked C- 3? Do you 

14 recognize that document? 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q What 1s it? 

17 A That's the other photograph I took 

18 of the second heavy bag that carne off, s1r. 

19 Q How do you know that? 

20 A Because it's got the orange heavy 

21 bag tag on it. 

22 Q Does it fairly and accurately 

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1 depict that heavy bag as it came off the 

2 aircraft as you saw it that day? 

3 A Yes, sir. 

4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

5 would offer what's been marked as C-3 into 

6 evidence as Exhibit C-3. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 3 is 

10 received into evidence as Complainant's 3. 

11 (EXHIBIT NO. C-3 WAS RECEIVED.) 

12 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I'm 

13 showing what I have marked as Complainant's 

14 C-102 to opposing counsel. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: When you approach, 

16 would you bring the other exhibits up so I can 

17 get them input properly in my spreadsheet 

18 here? I'll leave them up here on the bench. 

19 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

20 approach, Your Honor? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

22 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, Exhibits 

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1 C-100 and C-101. Did you want to see C-102 as 

2 well? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

4 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, I'd 

5 like you to look at Exhibit C-102. Do you 

6 recognize what this document is? 

7 A Yes, sir. It's SkyWest Airlines 

8 document for customer service procedures. 

9 Q How do you know that? 

10 A It states that across the top. 

11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

12 offers what's been marked as Exhibit C-102 for 

13 identification into evidence as C-102. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 102 

16 for identification is received into evidence 

17 as Complainant's 102. 

18 (EXHIBIT NO. C-102 WAS RECEIVED.) 

19 MR. HARPER: I'm showing opposing 

20 counsel what I've marked as Complainant 

21 Exhibit C-103 for identification. 

22 Permission to approach, Your 

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1 Honor? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

3 MR. HARPER: I'm showing Mr. 

4 Gehring what's been marked as Complainant 

5 Exhibit 103 for identification. 

6 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, do you 

7 recognize that document? 

8 A Yes. It's operation specs A098, 

9 s1r. 

10 Q How do you know that? 

11 A It's listed as operation spec 

12 A098. 

13 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

14 offers Complainant's Exhibit 103 for 

15 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

16 Exhibit 103. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

18 Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 103 

20 for identification is received in evidence as 

21 Complainant's 103. 

22 (EXHIBIT NO. C-103 WAS RECEIVED.) 

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1 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

2 Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to make sure, 

4 was Complainant's 100 offered for evidence? 

5 MR. HARPER: Neither Complainant's 

6 Exhibit 100 or 101 have been offered as 

7 evidence. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Can you hand 102 

9 and 103 to the Court, please? 

10 Give me just a second, Mr. 

11 Dworkin. Okay, Mr. Dworkin. Thank you . 

12 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you. 

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

14 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

15 Q Inspector Gehring, you have a 

16 commercial pilot's certificate. Do you have 

17 a type rating for a Canadair Regional Jet? 

18 A No, sir. 

19 Q No? 

20 A No, sir. 

21 Q And the day that you were in Salt 

22 Lake City you were doing this ConDOR function 

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1 paying attention to the actual loading of 

2 baggage and cargo on a SkyWest aircraft. Is 

3 that correct? 

4 A Yes, s1r. 

5 Q You were at Salt Lake. And Salt 

6 Lake is a maJor hub for SkyWest Airlines. Is 

7 that correct? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q So what time of day did you get to 

10 the airport, do you recall? 

11 A No, sir. I don't recall exactly 

12 when we started. 

13 Q Was this particular flight from 

14 Billings, Flight 4659, is this the only 

15 aircraft -- the only flight that you inspected 

16 or were there others? 

17 A There were others, sir. 

18 Q How many others were there? 

19 A I don't recall how many aircraft I 

20 looked at that day, s1r. I didn't bring that 

21 information with me. It 1s recorded. 

22 Q More than three? 

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1 A I don't recall how many I did, 

2 s1r. 

3 Q How much time did you spend at the 

4 airport that day? 

5 A I would estimate four hours. 

6 Q And with respect to Flight 4659, 

7 how long did it take you to do this bag check? 

8 A I didn't time how long it took. I 

9 did the bag check during the time that they 

10 completely unloaded the aircraft aft bag 

11 compartment. This was a 200. 

12 Q Which is the 50-seat RJ. Is that 

13 correct? 

14 A Yes, s1r. 

15 Q And approximately how long -- how 

16 much time did you spend doing the check for 

17 this aircraft? 

18 A I wouldn't speculate on that. I 

19 didn't start my watch or stop my watch. I was 

20 counting bags. And the amount of time -- my 

21 instructions didn't tell me to time the amount 

22 of time I took to count these. 

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1 Q So as you sit here, you have no 

2 recollection as to how much time you spent 

3 working this particular flight? 

4 A Just the amount of time that it 

5 actually took to watch them completely unload 

6 the bags after the aircraft taxied up. The 

7 aircraft taxied and so I hadn't started at 

8 that point. The bags were unloaded. The count 

9 was complete. Photographed the heavy bags. 

10 The amount of time it takes to do that on an 

11 average and to coordinate with the flight 

12 crew, with the CLR, with Mr. McKenna, 

13 inspector. That's how much time. 

14 Q And how much time did that take 

15 for this one flight? 

16 A Like I said, s1r, I didn't inspect 

17 [verbatim] that. It just depends on how fast 

18 the loading crews load and unload the bags. 

19 It varies between aircraft. 

20 Q These aircraft basically operate 

21 on a 20- to 30-minute turnaround time. Is 

22 that correct? 

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1 A They operate fairly quickly, sir. 

2 Q So in other words, they come in, 

3 they offload the bags. Within the next half 

4 hour they're fully loaded and they're gone. 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q So what you observed, according to 

7 your testimony, was 38 standard bags, two 

8 heavy bags, 13 valet bags, total of 53 bags 

9 coming off the airplane. 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q Okay. And the CLR which you got 

12 from the crew, flight crew? 

13 A Inspector Jim McKenna, when we met 

14 the airplane, went forward and met the flight 

15 crew and obtained the CLR. It was inbound 

16 flight. It wasn't an outbound flight. So he 

17 met them. He pulled the CLR while I began to 

18 count the bags. That way it's an accurate 

19 counting. 

20 Q But you looked at the CLR. 

21 A Yes, sir. He came back and 

22 brought me the CLR. 

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1 Q And the CLR showed the same number 

2 of total bags, 53. It's just that it didn't 

3 count the two heavy bags. 

4 A That is correct, sir. 

5 Q Okay. And so those -- those two 

6 heavy bags were counted as standard bags. 

7 A That 1s correct. 

8 Q Now, when you were employed 

9 well, withdraw. 

10 Under SkyWest' s Weight and Balance 

11 Program, standard bags are assigned a 3 0 -pound 

12 weight. Is that correct? 

13 A I'd have to get the I don't 

14 have that memorized. I'd have to open the 

15 manual and look. 

16 Q Well, how about under ops spec 

17 A098, does that specify the weights of bags? 

18 A Could I see 098 again? 

19 Q Sure. I believe the Court has it. 

20 A Yes. It specifies 30, s1r. 

21 Q Okay. And heavy bags are assigned 

22 60. 

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1 A Yes, sir. 

2 Q And valet bags are assigned 30. 

3 A Carry-on personal item is 16. 

4 Q Well, plane-side valet bag? 

5 A Plane-side valet bag is 30. 

6 Q Thirty. Okay. So for the purpose 

7 of weight and balance, plane-side valet and 

8 standard bags weigh the same. 

9 A Yes, sir. 

10 Q So -- and in connection with your 

11 investigation, did you make any determination 

12 as to who had loaded the aircraft at Billings? 

13 A No, s1r. 

14 Q Did you make any determination as 

15 to the number of bags that were in fact loaded 

16 at Billings? 

17 A The number of bags loaded at 

18 Billings would have been the number of bags 

19 that came off the aircraft. 

20 Q Unless hypothetically they forgot 

21 to offload some bags at Billings before they 

22 turned the airplane around. Right? 

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1 A In that case it would be an 

2 incorrect number of bags. 

3 Q As you sit here today, do you know 

4 if the flight crew of Flight 4659 utilized the 

5 weights in the CLR for the purpose of 

6 computing the load manifest? 

7 A Yes, they use the CLR to compute 

8 the load manifest. 

9 Q And did you speak to the flight 

10 crew about this? 

11 A I did not personally. 

12 Q So under the Weight and Balance 

13 Program, the differential between the bags 

14 observed coming off and what was in the CLR 

15 was about 60 pounds. 

16 A It was an error of 60 pounds, sir. 

17 Q And what is the maximum gross 

18 operating weight of a 50-seat Canadair 

19 Regional Jet? 

20 A I'd have to have the books to 

21 compute that, sir. 

22 Q You don't know that as you sit 

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1 here today? 

2 A As I sit here today, I don't know 

3 what that 1s. 

4 Q Now, when you were with Delta, you 

5 were a supervisor for quality in which 

6 department? 

7 A Maintenance department, sir. 

8 Q Did you deal with cargo loading at 

9 Delta? 

10 A No, sir. 

11 Q On this particular Flight 4659, do 

12 you know if the flight crew allowed any extra 

13 bags or additional bags at the last minute 

14 after the CLR was prepared? 

15 A I don't have an opinion on that. 

16 Q Do you know whether or not the 

17 flight crew allowed any extra bags or any 

18 changes after the CLR had been prepared? 

19 A No, I do not know that. 

20 Q Because in SkyWest' s Weight and 

21 Balance Program there is authority for the 

22 pilots to allow changes after the CLR is 

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1 prepared. Is that correct? 

2 A I don't know that. I'd have to 

3 read that part of the manual. If you would 

4 bring that to me, I could see it. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

6 questions. Thank you. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

8 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm go1ng to 

11 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

12 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

13 hearing. You're free to step down. It's up 

14 to the FAA counsel if you may stay in the 

15 area. 

16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, do you 

17 want this back? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please, s1r. 

19 Thank you. 

20 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, FAA rests 

21 its case in chief. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, how 

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1 many witnesses do you anticipate, just 

2 ballpark? 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Four. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me make a 

5 suggestion, Counsel. It's 20 minutes after 

6 11:00. 

7 Rather than have you start, Mr. 

8 Dworkin, and break your testimony, why don't 

9 we break early and come back at 10 minutes of 

10 1:00 and resume 10 minutes of 1:00? 

11 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Work for 

13 everybody? 

14 MR. HARPER: Yes, s1r. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Sure. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: It is 11:20. We 

17 will go off the record and ask everybody to 

18 return at 10 minutes of 1:00, and we' 11 resume 

19 at that point. 

20 And, Mr. Dworkin, keep an eye on 

21 the time because unfortunately I've got a 

22 conference call I've got to take at 2:30. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. We're 

3 off the record. 

4 (A break was taken from 11:24 to 

5 12: 54 . ) 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: So we're back on 

7 the record. 

8 So, Mr. Dworkin, your pleasure. 

9 MR . DWORKIN : Thank you, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 Your Honor, there's no dispute 

12 that there was some disparity between the 

13 number of items that were recorded on the 

14 Cargo Load Report and the number of items that 

15 were observed by three FAA inspectors as they 

16 were deplaned from the aircraft. But this 

17 case is really about counting errors, and it's 

18 about human error. 

19 Just as the Office of Hearings had 

20 double-docketed one case, the people 

21 responsible for loading bags did pretty much 

22 the same thing. I mean, it's an inherent 

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1 human flaw. Sometimes we lose count of 

2 things/ whether we were kids and forgetting to 

3 count our marbles correctly or adults and 

4 poker chips or whatever. 

5 And I surmise that before this 

6 case is over with all the documents/ despite 

7 the fact that we have a very/ very seasoned 

8 experienced judge and two seasoned or 

9 several seasoned trial counsel/ sooner or 

10 later before this case is over we 1 re going to 

11 misplace and forget about a number of 

12 exhibits. And that 1 S essentially what 

13 happened. 

14 SkyWest maintains that even though 

15 there was -- there may have been a disparity/ 

16 there was no safety of flight that was 

17 safety of flight was not compromised. There 

18 was no adverse effect on safety of flight. 

19 Any weight discrepancies were nominal at best 

20 and had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the 

21 weight and balance or performance and handling 

22 of the aircraft and had no effect on SkyWest 1 s 

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1 m1ss1on to transport people from point A to 

2 point B safely and efficiently and 

3 comfortably. That is essentially what we w.lll 

4 show. 

5 To keep this case in its proper 

6 perspective, there was approximately an 80-day 

7 period between the first violation on November 

8 22, 2010 and February 15, 2011. During that 

9 80-day period the evidence will show that 

10 SkyWest operated some 120, 000 flights and 

11 carried some five to s1x million items of 

12 baggage all without incident. And what we're 

13 concerned with here are five particular 

14 flights in which there were nominal, nominal, 

15 disparities between what was contained in the 

16 CLR and what was observed being offloaded. 

17 And with that I am ready to call 

18 my first witness. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Call your first 

20 witness. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Mr. Salamone. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Raise your right 

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1 hand. 

2 (Witness sworn.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

4 State your name for the record and spell your 

5 first and last name. 

6 THE WITNESS: My name 1s Carl. 

7 First name, C-A-R-L; last name 

8 S-A-L-A-M-0-N-E. 

9 CARL SALAMONE, 

10 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

11 was examined and testified as follows: 

12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q Mr. Salamone, will you be kind 

15 enough to give us your business address. 

16 A 444 South River Road, St. George, 

17 Utah 84792. 

18 Q Are you employed, sir? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q By whom? 

21 A SkyWest Airlines. 

22 Q In what capacity? 

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1 A I'm a pilot and also a member of a 

2 special projects group. 

3 Q As a pilot, what are your duties 

4 and responsibilities with SkyWest? 

5 A The primary duty is for the safe 

6 and efficient operation of SkyWest aircraft. 

7 Q And you mentioned that you were 

8 part of a special program? 

9 A Correct. A special projects group 

10 where we will address special projects as they 

11 would arise for Flight Operations Management . 

12 Q For how long have you been 

13 employed by SkyWest? 

14 A Since January of 2011. 

15 Q And how long have you been 

16 involved ln this special projects group? 

17 A Since December of 2008. 

18 Q Other than having a pilot 

19 certificate -- what type of pilot certificate 

20 do you have? 

21 A I have an airline transport pilot 

22 certificate with CL-65 type rating. 

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1 Q And that 1s the Canadair Regional 

2 Jet that's used by SkyWest? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q And other than your aviation 

5 education, do you have any other degrees? 

6 A Yes. I have a degree in aviation 

7 human factors from the University of Illinois 

8 and a degree in electrical engineering also 

9 from the University of Illinois. 

10 Q Were any of these degrees with 

11 honors or high honors? 

12 A Yes. The aviation human factors 

13 degree was with high honors, and the 

14 electrical engineer degree was with honors. 

15 Q What is your total flight time? 

16 A Total flight time, I believe, is 

17 around 3880 hours. 

18 Q And how much of that is 1n 

19 Canadair Regional Jet type aircraft? 

20 A If I remember it correctly, it's 

21 very near 2800 hours. 

22 Q Other than the ATP, do you have 

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1 any other FAA certificates? 

2 A Yes. I have a flight instructor 

3 certificate in airplane single and multi 

4 engine, 1n instrument airplane, and also have 

5 advanced ground instructor and instrument 

6 ground instructor certificates. 

7 Q Mr. Salamone, what is your 

8 involvement in this case? 

9 A My involvement has only been to 

10 analyze the flights in question and recreate 

11 weight and balance scenar1o for these five 

12 flights. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

14 approach, Your Honor? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

16 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, I've 

17 just placed in front of you what has been 

18 marked as Exhibit R-3. What is that? 

19 A This is the Weight and Balance 

20 Analysis that I authored analyzing the five 

21 flights for these three FAA case numbers. 

22 Q And you were requested by whom to 

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1 do this? 

2 A By Flight Operations Management. 

3 Q And I notice that looking at the 

4 and Exhibit R-3 is the report that you 

5 actually compiled? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q Okay. I notice that the very 

8 beginning of page 1 it refers to Revision 2 of 

9 this document. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Why was there a revision? 

12 A The revision is a result of Flight 

13 4451. The initial analysis that I performed 

14 was for the Salt Lake City to Casper flight 

15 that occurred on February 11th. Upon noticing 

16 the error, I redid the analysis for the Flight 

17 4451 between Salt Lake City and Casper that 

18 occurred on the 15th of February. 

19 Q And so could you tell us something 

20 about the methodology that you followed in 

21 computing the aircraft weight and balance 

22 data? 

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1 A Yes. So what I did to recreate 

2 this each scenario for these flights was to 

3 look through the dispatch release, the 

4 electronic manifest, the Cargo Load Report, 

5 and the alleged number of bags that were 

6 offloaded from the aircraft. And using that 

7 information I used the manual method in our 

8 approved weight and balance operation to 

9 recreate the flight as the flight crew had 

10 calculated their weight and balance. And then 

11 I took the number of bags that were allegedly 

12 offloaded and calculated the performance and 

13 weight and balance adjustments that would be 

14 made if that additional weight had been 

15 present. 

16 Q In doing this, did you follow the 

17 SkyWest Weight and Balance Program? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And the assigned average weights? 

20 A Yes, I did. 

21 Q So under the average weights 

22 program a standard bag is 30 pounds. Is that 

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1 correct? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And a plane-side valet bag is 

4 what? 

5 A That is also 30 pounds. 

6 Q And how about a heavy bag? 

7 A Heavy bag is 60 pounds. 

8 Q Okay. Now, also in the Weight and 

9 Balance Program and also in some of the FAA 

10 literature a standard bag is designated as a 

11 bag that weighs between zero and 50 pounds . 

12 Is that correct? 

13 A Yes, that's correct. 

14 Q And a heavy bag is something that 

15 weighs between 51 or slightly over 50 to 

16 about 100 pounds. Is that correct? 

17 A That is also correct. 

18 Q But for purposes of the average 

19 weights program, a standard bag is 30 and a 

20 heavy bag is 60. Is that correct? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Okay. And although it's a little 

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1 bit .off yield because the case is involving 

2 baggage, under the average weights program the 

3 average passenger is what? 

4 A For the summer months the average 

5 passenger weight is 190 pounds. In the winter 

6 months the average passenger weight is 195 

7 pounds. 

8 Q Okay. So that average passenger, 

9 that's regardless of whether the passenger is 

10 a linebacker for the Washington Redskins or a 

11 jockey. 

12 A Yes, that's correct. 

13 Q Whether the passenger is a Sumo 

14 wrestler or a ballerina. 

15 A Also correct. 

16 Q Everybody weighs 190 pounds in the 

17 summer and 195 in the winter. 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q So on this basis, the computation 

20 of takeoff weight under the average weights 

21 program may not exactly correspond by the 

22 pound to the actual weight of the aircraft. 

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1 Is that correct? 

2 A That is correct. 

3 Q Did you make a determination as to 

4 the aircraft takeoff weights on each of these 

5 flights which are the subject in this case --

6 A I did. 

7 Q -- the consolidated cases? 

8 A Yes, I did. 

9 Q And what was that determination? 

10 A Well, the determination was that 

11 for all five flights the aircraft weight and 

12 center of gravity location fell within both 

13 the manufacturer recommendations or 

14 manufacturer required area and also within the 

15 performance as it had been calculated for each 

16 flight. 

17 Q And how about center of gravity? 

18 A Center of gravity, the weights as 

19 reported had they actually been present would 

20 have cost a very small shift 1n center of 

21 gravity location, all of which still would 

22 have remained within the manufacturer's 

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1 envelope. 

2 Q Would that have affected aircraft 

3 performance? 

4 A No, it would not. 

5 Q How about with respect to aircraft 

6 climb performance, would any deviation from 

7 what was offloaded in comparison to the CLRs 

8 have changed the aircraft climb performance? 

9 A It would not have. 

10 Q And how about the aircraft maximum 

11 operating altitude? 

12 A The maximum operating altitude, 

13 any limitation that would have been caused by 

14 the additional weight would have been 

15 recognized by the flight crew and the flight 

16 crew would act appropriately, as they are 

17 trained to fly at a lower altitude if 

18 required. We do plan additional contingency 

19 fuel over that which is required for flight to 

20 ensure safe operation in this case. 

21 Q Let's go to page 3 of your report. 

22 And this pertains to a Flight No. 6573, Denver 

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1 to Hayden, and aircraft November 702 Sierra 

2 Kilo. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, that, I 

5 believe, 1S the flight in Case No. 

6 2011-NM-060010, DMS No. FAA-2011-0486. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we're going 

8 to do-- what we're going to do for purpose of 

9 pagination is the cover sheet which is SkyWest 

10 Airlines Weight and Balance Analysis will be 

11 zero . Thereafter we'll use the pagination 

12 numbers at the bottom of each page 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: rather than 

15 repaginate. So when you refer to --

16 MR. DWORKIN: Page 3 of 21. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- 3 of 21, the 

18 first paragraph starts out, "The FAA reports." 

19 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the record 

21 1s clear, you got that Mr. Harper? 

22 MR. HARPER: Yes, sir. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Okay. Now, your 

3 understanding of this flight was the FAA had 

4 reported three heavy bags that were found on 

5 board, and the CLR listed only one heavy bag. 

6 Is that correct? 

7 A Yes, that is correct. 

8 Q Did you actually review that CLR? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And if there were three heavy bags 

11 that were found on the aircraft and the CLR 

12 listed only one heavy bag, what would have 

13 been the maximum weight differential between 

14 what the CLR reported and what the aircraft 

15 actually carried? 

16 A Depends if the additional two 

17 heavy bags were counted as standard bags or 

18 not counted at all. If they were counted as 

19 standard bags and simply not as a heavy bag, 

20 the weight would have been a 60-pound 

21 deviation. If the two heavy bags had not been 

22 counted at all, it would have been 120-pound 

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1 deviation. 

2 Q Now, this aircraft involved had a 

3 maximum takeoff weight for the particular 

4 runway of what? 

5 A For the runway of use, the max1mum 

6 takeoff weight was 66,582 pounds. 

7 Q And would a differential of 

8 somewhere between 60 to 100 pounds in baggage 

9 weight have had any effect on an aircraft with 

10 a max1mum takeoff weight of 66,582 pounds? 

11 A No, it would not. 

12 Q Let's go to page 5 of 21 of your 

13 report, sir. And this pertains to Flight 4659 

14 on November 22, 2010. Is that correct? 

15 A That is correct. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, that is 

17 FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. FAA 

18 2011-0485. 

19 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) The tail number of 

20 this aircraft was November 410 Sierra Whiskey. 

21 Is that correct? 

22 A Yes, that 1s correct. 

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1 Q And that was Billings to Salt Lake 

2 City? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Was your methodology the same with 

5 respect to this flight as it was with respect 

6 to the prior flight that you just discussed? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And what was the -- the -- in that 

9 case the CLR reports 38 standard bags and two 

10 heavy bags. Is that correct? 

11 A That is correct . 

12 Q I'm sorry. The FAA reported that 

13 was what was offloaded? 

14 A Yes. I'm sorry. 

15 Q And the CLR listed 40 standard 

16 bags. Is that correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q So what was the result in terms of 

19 pounds of additional cargo? 

20 A The result would have been 60 

21 pounds of additional cargo. 

22 Q For a moment let's go back to the 

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1 pr1or flight. What was the actual gross 

2 takeoff weight of the aircraft on 6573? 

3 A 6573, the flight crew calculated 

4 gross takeoff weight was 65,278 pounds. 

5 Q Okay. And that is below the 

6 certified maximum takeoff weight? 

7 A Yes, it 1s. 

8 Q Okay. Let's go back to Flight 

9 4659. So there would have been a differential 

10 of approximately 60 pounds --

11 A Correct. 

12 Q under the average weights 

13 program? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And the gross takeoff weight as 

16 computed by the flight crew for Flight 4659 

17 was what? 

18 A 46,358 pounds. 

19 Q And what was the certified maximum 

20 takeoff weight? 

21 A For a CRJ-200 the maximum 

22 certified takeoff weight is 53,000 pounds. 

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1 Q So the gross takeoff weight of 

2 46,358 even if you added the 60 pounds would 

3 still be less than the maximum gross takeoff 

4 weight. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q So the additional weight observed 

7 by the FAA inspectors did or did not exceed 

8 the maximum takeoff weight? 

9 A It did not exceed the maximum 

10 takeoff weight. 

11 Q And do you have an opinion as to 

12 whether safety of flight was maintained on 

13 this flight with respect to aircraft weight 

14 and balance. 

15 A Yes. I believe safety of flight 

16 was maintained at all times. 

17 Q Let's go to Flight 6692 of 

18 December 14th. This is also part of Case No. 

19 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. FAA-2011-0485. This 

20 pertains to Flight No. 6692 from Los Angeles 

21 to San Diego, does it not, sir? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q And this was a flight of December 

2 14, 2010? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And what aircraft type was used 1n 

5 that? 

6 A This is also a CRJ-200. 

7 Q So that's the 50-seat CRJ. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q And you testified earlier that the 

10 maximum certified gross takeoff weight of that 

11 aircraft 1s 53,000 pounds? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And in this case you indicate the 

14 FAA reported 19 standard bags and one heavy 

15 bag and the CLR indicated 2 0 standard bags and 

16 five heavy bags. Is that correct? 

17 A That 1s correct. 

18 Q So actually the CLR reported that 

19 the aircraft was heavier than it actually was. 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q By -- I believe you calculated 270 

22 pounds? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Did the fact that the aircraft was 

3 270 pounds lighter have any effect on its 

4 ability to perform? 

5 A No, it did not. 

6 Q Safety of flight was maintained? 

7 A At all times. 

8 Q The aircraft was still within its 

9 maximum certified takeoff weight and operating 

10 weights? 

11 A Yes . 

12 Q The aircraft was still within 

13 weight and balance? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Let's go to Flight 4800 of the 

16 following day, December 15, 2010. That's page 

17 9 of 21. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, this is 

19 also part of Case No. 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. 

20 FAA-2011-485. 

21 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) What type of 

22 aircraft was utilized on this flight? 

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1 A This was also a CRJ-200. 

2 Q Again with a maximum gross weight 

3 of 53,000 pounds? 

4 A Yes that's correct. 

5 Q And in this case the FAA reported 

6 43 standard bags, four heavy bags and 12 valet 

7 bags onboard the aircraft. The Cargo Load 

8 Report listed 59 standard bags, zero heavy 

9 bags, and zero valet bags. And according to 

10 your report you say that the result was 120 

11 pounds of additional cargo located in the aft 

12 cargo bin. Is that correct? 

13 A That lS correct. 

14 Q With this 120 pounds would this 

15 aircraft still have been within its takeoff 

16 weight parameters? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Would it have been within its 

19 operating limitations? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Would it have been within 

22 within its takeoff weight limits? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Was safety of flight maintained? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Let's go to page 11 of 21 of your 

5 report. And this is a flight from Salt Lake to 

6 Casper, Flight 4451. 

7 MR . DWORKIN : And, Your Honor, 

8 that is Case 2011-NM-060033, and DMS No. 

9 2011-0680/0779. 

10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) This is a flight 

11 of February 15, 2011, from Salt Lake to 

12 Casper. Is that correct? 

13 A Yes, it 1s. 

14 Q Okay. And in that case the FAA 

15 reported one heavy bag and the Cargo Load 

16 Report listed zero heavy bags. Is that 

17 correct? 

18 A Yes, it is correct. 

19 Q So were you able to determine what 

20 the weight differential was? 

21 A Not exactly, but there's two 

22 possibilities. If that heavy bag was counted 

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1 as a standard bag, it would result in an 

2 additional 30 pounds. If the heavy bag had 

3 not been counted at all, it would have been an 

4 additional 60 pounds. 

5 Q And what type of aircraft was 

6 this? 

7 A CRJ-200. 

8 Q Again with a maximum operating 

9 weight of 53,000 pounds? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q Would the 30 to 60 pounds have in 

12 any way affected the performance of the 

13 aircraft? 

14 A No, it would not. 

15 Q Would the 30 to 60 pounds in any 

16 way have affected the center of gravity of the 

17 aircraft? 

18 A Very small effect on the center of 

19 gravity, still well within the manufacturer's 

20 envelope. 

21 Q And safety of flight would not 

22 have been compromised? 

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1 A No, safety of flight would not 

2 have been compromised. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, ask that 

4 Exhibit R-3 be received. 

5 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 3 for 

8 identification is received into evidence as 

9 Respondent's 3. 

10 (EXHIBIT NO. R-3 WAS RECEIVED.) 

11 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) In terms of your 

12 role with the SkyWest flight operation special 

13 projects, were you the only person involved in 

14 the weight and balance issues? 

15 A No. There were two others working 

16 together with me. I was the primary author on 

17 this document. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we offer 

19 Mr. Salamone as an expert in the field of 

20 aircraft weight and balance and CG 

21 calculations with respect to Canadair Regional 

22 Jets . 

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1 MR. HARPER: No objection. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to 

3 voir dire? 

4 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor, no 

5 objection. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN : Oh, okay. The 

7 witness is received as an expert in the field 

8 enumerated by Mr. Dworkin. 

9 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, ln 

10 addition to SkyWest' s Weight and Balance 

11 Program there's also an FAA advisory circular 

12 on average weight programs, is there not? 

13 A Yes, there is. 

14 Q And under that advisory circular 

15 -- I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it's 

16 AC120-27E or something like that? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 Q The reason why do we have 

19 average weight programs as opposed to actual 

20 weight programs? 

21 A I'm not, I don't believe, 

22 qualified to answer that program [verbatim] , 

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1 why the FAA has that program. It is the 

2 program that has been approved for use by 

3 SkyWest. 

4 Q Well, to actually use actual 

5 weight would be a little bit impractical when 

6 you're trying to move around a number of 

7 people and all their bags within, you know, 

8 short flights and 20- to 30-minute turnaround 

9 times. Right? 

10 A I believe so. 

11 Q And as a matter of fact, the 

12 advisory circular contemplates that the using 

13 actual weights are impractical, and so they 

14 allow this average weights program. 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And under the AC are there some 

17 discrepancies or some tolerance that is 

18 permissible? 

19 A For carriers that would choose to 

20 perform bag surveys, their own, a 2 percent 

21 tolerance or 2 percent error is allowable on 

22 the bag survey for use of that in place of the 

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1 average bag weight. 

2 Q Now. SkyWest uses the average 

3 baggage weight. 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q In terms of all these 

6 discrepancies between the CLRs and the actual 

7 weights of the baggage offloaded, were all 

8 those discrepancies within that 2 percent 

9 figure? 

10 A No, they were not. 

11 Q Which ones were not within the 2 

12 percent figure? 

13 A Well, Flight 6573, Denver to 

14 Hayden, depending on whether or not the 

15 miscounted heavy bags had been included as 

16 standard bags. Had they been included in the 

17 bag count, it would have fallen inside that 2 

18 percent. If they had not been counted at all, 

19 they would have fallen outside for Flight 

20 6573. 

21 Q But as we sit here today, we don't 

22 know whether the heavy bags were included as 

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1 standard bags or not. 

2 A No. There wasn't enough 

3 information to make that determination. 

4 Q Any others? 

5 A The Flight 4659, Billings to Salt 

6 Lake City, would have been falling within the 

7 2 percent. Flight 6692 1s 270 pounds less. 

8 This 1s the flight that the crew calculated 

9 heavier than allegedly the actual weight would 

10 have been, so this one, yes, it would have 

11 fallen inside because the weight was not 

12 present. 

13 Q Let me ask you something. You've 

14 reviewed these flight logs and load manifests. 

15 For Flight 6692 which was 270 pounds lighter 

16 than what the CLR said, did this aircraft 

17 just, you know, leap off the ground and exceed 

18 its performance capabilities? 

19 A I can't speak for the flight crew, 

20 but I would assume it would have performed 

21 better in all scenarios because it didn't have 

22 the weight. 

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1 Q But there's no evidence it leapt 

2 off the ground uncontrolled? 

3 A No. I would assume that the 

4 flight crew would not have been able to tell 

5 a difference, that that weight was not 

6 present. 

7 Q Okay. 

8 A The next flight, Flight 4800, LA 

9 to San Diego, this one would not have been 

10 within the 2 percent. 

11 The Flight 4451, Salt Lake City to 

12 Casper, with both cases, whether the bag had 

13 been counted as a standard bag or not at all, 

14 both cases would have fallen inside the 2 

15 percent. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

17 approach, Your Honor? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

19 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, I'm 

20 showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 

21 R-4. Can you tell us what this is? 

22 A This is a request for an amendment 

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1 to the approved Weight and Balance Program 

2 that would include a tolerance or variance for 

3 small miscounts in nature and small 

4 differences between the Cargo Load Report and 

5 the aircraft load manifest. 

6 Q And what brought this about? 

7 A This was an effort to design an 

8 error tolerance system with human factors in 

9 mind to plan for the cases when human -- human 

10 interaction with the system was not able to 

11 keep 100 percent accuracy in the counting for 

12 the Cargo Load Report. And the idea is to 

13 design a system that will maintain operational 

14 safety at all times even when there may be a 

15 small human factors-related error. 

16 Q Did you draft this letter? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Now, attached to the letter 

19 beginning on the second page of of the 

20 amendment proposal -- the second page --well, 

21 the next page after your letter is a document 

22 called "Weight and Balance Program Amendment 

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1 Proposal" dated March 2, 2011. Did you draft 

2 this as well? 

3 A Yes, I did. 

4 Q And the first paragraph, second 

5 sentence says, "This request is designed to 

6 address the numerous cargo weight errors that 

7 have been identified in recent Letters of 

8 Investigation from the SkyWest Certificate 

9 Management Office." So basically this letter 

10 -- or this amendment was in response to all 

11 these cases . 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And what specifically was SkyWest 

14 asking the FAA for? 

15 A Specifically SkyWest was asking 

16 for an amendment to our approved Weight and 

17 Balance Program that would limit SkyWest 

18 aircraft, limit the performance capabilities 

19 of that aircraft, by planning ahead for 

20 additional weight and small miscounts so that 

21 when they should happen we would ensure that 

22 safety was maintained at all times. And by 

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1 planning ahead for small errors, small human 

2 errors, we could maintain that high degree of 

3 safety. 

4 Q And you also referenced an FAA 

5 Order 9550.88 Human Factors Policy. What is 

6 that? 

7 A This is the human factors 

8 directive. It comes from an FAA order here 

9 where it talks about the design of an error 

10 tolerance system, and it talks about the human 

11 limitations associated with-- with, you know, 

12 procedures and processes and how to include 

13 human factors into the design of a system. 

14 Q And go to the bottom of page 2 of 

15 your amendment proposal. Those would have 

16 been the tolerances you were requesting. Is 

17 that correct? 

18 A Yes, that is correct. 

19 Q So specifically for the CRJ-200, 

20 which is the 50-seat Canadair Regional Jet, 

21 you would have asked for a 60-pound or two 

22 standard checked bag tolerance. Is that 

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1 correct? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q And for the CRJ-700/900 it was 90 

4 pounds. Is that correct? 

5 A Yes, that's correct. 

6 Q Could you go to page 6? You wrote 

7 this. Right? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Could you read that paragraph on 

10 page 6? 

11 A "SkyWest would like to reiterate 

12 that the purpose of this program is not to 

13 allow for error. It will, however, ensure 

14 that operational safety is maintained in any 

15 small miscount situations caused by the 

16 limitations of human performance. A similar 

17 program has already been put into place at 

18 Delta Airlines. The SkyWest philosophy has 

19 been and remains safety first. With that in 

20 mind, it 1s our hope for rapid consideration 

21 and approval of this request." 

22 Q And then attached to that 

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1 submission is the Human Factors Appendix. Did 

2 you draft that? It's page 7. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Pages 7 and 8 specifically. And 

5 in the fourth paragraph on page 7 you talk 

6 about susceptibility for error. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And --

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure that 

10 he answered the question about whether he 

11 authored it. Did you author it? 

12 THE WITNESS: If I remember 

13 correctly, I was the primary author on this. 

14 However, I don't remember this document as 

15 clearly as I do the actual proposal. So I 

16 would say with some certainty that, yes, I did 

17 author this; however, it's not as familiar. 

18 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) And 1n this Human 

19 Factors Appendix it talks about the 

20 susceptibility for error in the weight and 

21 balance process. What do you mean by that? 

22 A The weight and balance process is 

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1 -- it has the potential to be very limiting 

2 from a human factor standpoint. The aircraft 

3 ramp 1s a very difficult work environment. 

4 You have noise, vibration, maybe temperature 

5 swings, distractions, other as it says 

6 here, psychological, social, biological, other 

7 factors that could come into play that would 

8 alter the human performance and limit the 

9 human performance in this situation. 

10 Q And in terms of the tolerance that 

11 SkyWest was requesting, the 30-, 60-, 90-pound 

12 tolerance, was that within the 2 percent 

13 margin specified in the advisory circular? 

14 A It was very close. The CRJ-200 

15 was less than the 2 percent, as specified. 

16 The 700 and 900 was slightly greater than. 

17 The reason that we went with 90 pounds for the 

18 700/900 1s that it made sense with the 

19 approved program that is already in place for 

20 three bags. And the EMV I don' t recall 

21 specifically. I would have to go look that one 

22 up again. I'm not certified in that aircraft, 

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1 so I don't know the numbers on the top of my 

2 head. 

3 Q And again on page 8 you mention 

4 that Delta Airlines currently uses a 600-pound 

5 tolerance. Where do you get that information 

6 from? 

7 A That information comes from the 

8 Delta Airlines Flight Operations Manual. 

9 Q And is it your understanding that 

10 that 600-pound tolerance pertains to all Delta 

11 free types? 

12 A That is my understanding. 

13 Q From the smallest airplane, which 

14 is a DC-9, to the largest airplane, which is 

15 a 777? 

16 A Yes, that is my understanding. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, for 

18 purposes of the next exhibit could we seal the 

19 record, because this 1s the Delta Flight 

20 Operations Manual which is proprietary to 

21 Delta? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objections, 

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1 Mr. Harper? 

2 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we're going 

4 to do is we're going to go off the record, and 

5 before we get back on what we'll do is we'll 

6 come back in a sealed session. 

7 Now, both attorneys turn around 

8 and look at the audience. Anybody there who 

9 should not be here? CSO exempt. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: Everybody on that 

11 side, Your Honor, shouldn't be here . 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I figured that. 

13 But CSO 1s exempt from this. 

14 Mr. Harper, is everybody on your 

15 side FAA employee? 

16 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, on 

18 your side? 

19 MR. DWORKIN: Everybody is 

20 affiliated with SkyWest except for the 

21 gentleman in the back wearing the U.S. 

22 Government badge. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And he has a gun 

2 so he can stay. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: We won't argue with 

4 fire power. 

5 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

6 into sealed session.) 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the record 

2 in open session. Remind the witness you're 

3 still under oath. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: Has R-4 been 

5 received, Your Honor? 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

7 MR. DWORKIN: R-4? I moved for 

8 the admission. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: In open session, 

10 Mr. Harper, he's-- Mr. Dworkin has moved for 

11 the admission of R-4 which I have paginated 

12 with 9 pages, that being the original letter, 

13 the cover sheet, and some additional pages. 

14 MR. HARPER: I have no objection, 

15 Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 4 for 

17 identification is received into evidence as 

18 Respondent's 4. 

19 (EXHIBIT NO. R-4 WAS RECEIVED.) 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

21 approach, Your Honor? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes . 

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 

2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

3 Q Mr. Salamone, I've just put in 

4 front of you what's been marked for 

5 identification as Exhibit R-5. What is this? 

6 A This is a follow-up letter to Mr. 

7 Ayers in response to a meeting on, I believe, 

8 March 3, 2011, to discuss the Weight and 

9 Balance Amendment Proposal. 

10 Q So that meeting on March 3rd was 

11 basically discussing what you previously 

12 discussed in Exhibit R-4 the March 2nd letter? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And did you author Exhibit R-5? 

15 A I believe I did. As with the 

16 previous document, it's not as crystal clear 

17 in my memory, but I believe I did author this 

18 as well. 

19 Q And 1n the third paragraph of 

20 Exhibit R-5 you say, 11 0n average SkyWest 

21 handles an estimated 23 million bags per 

22 year. 11 Where did you get that number from? 

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1 A I can't recall. 

2 Q At the time that you wrote it, did 

3 you believe that number to be accurate? 

4 A At the time, yes. 

5 Q And this letter was basically 

6 further supporting your proposal for an 

7 amendment to the Weight and Balance Program. 

8 Is that correct? 

9 A Yes, that's correct. 

10 Q In the third paragraph you state 

11 beginning with the second sentence, 11 The 

12 efforts to control risks are ongoing and 

13 remain a top priority. While we strive for 

14 accuracy, the sheer volume of manually-handled 

15 items makes it impossible to assure absolute 

16 accuracy. 11 What do you mean by that? 

17 A By that I meant to state that we 

18 are SkyWest as an airline 1s focused on 

19 controlling risk and ensuring the safe 

20 operation. We strive for accuracy in all 

21 cases. It is the ultimate goal. However, the 

22 human limitation on the process itself makes 

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1 it impossible to ensure 100 percent accuracy. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: Ask that R- 5 be 

3 received. 

4 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5 for 

7 identification is received into evidence as 

8 Respondent's 5. 

9 (EXHIBIT NO. R-5 WAS RECEIVED.) 

10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Did the FAA 

11 formally respond to the March 2nd and March 

12 4th letters? 

13 A Yes, I believe they did. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

15 Honor? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Showing you what's 

18 been marked as Exhibit R-6. What is that? 

19 A That is letter to Mr. Chris Brown, 

2 0 Director of Aircraft Operations, from Mr. 

21 Ayers, the principal operations inspector. 

22 Q And basically -- for all intents 

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1 and purposes, this basically rejected 

2 SkyWest's proposal. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes, that's correct. 

4 Q Can you turn to paragraph 2 of the 

5 letter? And this is written from the -- from 

6 the CMO principal operations inspector. Is 

7 that correct? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Q Paragraph 2 first line, "Current 

10 FAA guidance does not address the concept of 

11 baggage count or weight tolerances." Is that 

12 a true statement? 

13 A I can't speak to the FAA guidance 

14 regarding that. 

15 Q But Delta has a weight tolerance. 

16 A Yes, they do. 

17 MR . DWORKIN : Ask that R-6 be 

18 received. 

19 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 6 for 

22 identification lS received 1n evidence as 

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1 Respondent's 6. 

2 (EXHIBIT NO. R-6 WAS RECEIVED.) 

3 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

4 questions, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. HARPER: 

8 Q SkyWest does not use bag survey 

9 weights, do they? 

10 A No, sir. 

11 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect based on 

13 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- that question? 

17 Pardon me? 

18 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you're 

20 excused. You're instructed not to discuss 

21 your testimony with anybody prior to the 

22 conclusion of the hearing. It's up to Counsel 

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1 whether you can remain or whether you're 

2 excused. Thank you. 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

5 MR. DWORKIN: What time is your 

6 conference call, Your Honor? 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: We've got 40 

8 minutes. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: I might as well 

10 start with my next witness then. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: May I just have a 

13 word with Mr. Salamone? 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Let's go 

15 off the record for just a minute. We'll take 

16 a five-minute recess. 

17 (A break was taken from 1:52 to 

18 2:01.) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

20 record. 

21 Mr. Dworkin, call your next 

22 witness . 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Jeremy Barclay, 

2 please. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Raise your right 

4 hand. 

5 (Witness sworn.) 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

7 State your full name and spell your first and 

8 last name. 

9 THE WITNESS: My name is Jeremy 

10 Barclay, J-E-R-E-M-Y, last name, 

11 B-A-R-C-L-A-Y . 

12 JEREMY BARCLAY, 

13 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

14 was examined and testified as follows: 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q Are you still -- I'm sorry. Would 

18 you please state your office address? 

19 A Yes. That's 444 South River Road, 

20 St. George, Utah, 84790. 

21 Q Are you employed, sir? 

22 A Yes, I am. 

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1 Q And by whom? 

2 A SkyWest Airlines. 

3 Q For how long have you been 

4 employed by SkyWest Airlines? 

5 A Just over nine years. 

6 Q What is your current position with 

7 SkyWest? 

8 A My title is director of safety 

9 policy and security. 

10 Q And what does that entail? 

11 A I work within our company safety 

12 department, and I oversee the safety policy 

13 that interfaces with the operational 

14 departments within our company and also all of 

15 the promotion of our safety programs. And I 

16 also interface with regulatory agencies such 

17 as TSA, FAA, FBI. 

18 Q How long have you held that 

19 position? 

20 A I've been in that position since 

21 April of 2011. 

22 Q And prior to April of 2011, what 

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1 was your employment with SkyWest? 

2 A I was the manager of customer 

3 servlce compliance and standards. 

4 Q And as such, what were your duties 

5 and responsibilities? 

6 A My duties were to promote 

7 regulatory compliance within the customer 

8 service department, including training. Also 

9 to investigate and evaluate any potential 

10 noncompliance or alleged violations of a 

11 regulatory nature . 

12 Q And that was -- when did you start 

13 ln that position? 

14 A I started ln that position in 

15 August of 2010. 

16 Q And prior to that? 

17 A I was the manager of customer 

18 service ground operations training. 

19 Q And as such, what was -- what were 

20 your principal duties and responsibilities? 

21 A Principle duties and 

22 responsibilities included developing training 

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1 for all of the ground operations, procedures, 

2 and personnel within SkyWest Airlines and also 

3 contract training for our vendors. And so the 

4 main focus again I authored our ground 

5 operations or station operations manual, 

6 disseminated bulletins and communications on 

7 updates to customer service ground operations 

8 procedures and subsequent training. 

9 Q And when did you start 1n that 

10 position? 

11 A I believe it's March of 2008. 

12 Q Okay. And obviously there was 

13 employment with SkyWest before March of 2008. 

14 What was that? 

15 A I worked 1n the customer service 

16 ground operations training departments as a 

17 ground operations instructor and as a 

18 supervisor. 

19 Q And as such, what were those 

20 duties and responsibilities? 

21 A As a ground operations instructor, 

22 I was responsible for training, conducting 

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1 classroom training and on-the-job training in 

2 both SkyWest locations and in our contract 

3 locations. 

4 Q And how about your civilian 

5 education, do you have any degrees subsequent 

6 to rece1v1ng a high school diploma? 

7 A I do. I have an undergraduate 

8 bachelor of arts from Westminster College in 

9 aviation management and a master's of business 

10 from Westminster College. 

11 Q Now, SkyWest has a Weight and 

12 Balance Program, does it not? 

13 A It does. 

14 Q And that 1s also known as Standard 

15 Practice 4100? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And is that an FAA approved 

18 document? 

19 A It is. 

20 Q And under the Weight and Balance 

21 Program heavy checked bags are defined as bags 

22 weighing over 50 but less than 100 pounds. Is 

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1 that correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q And under the average weights 

4 program they're assigned a weight of 60 

5 pounds. Correct? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q Standard bags are in what weight 

8 range? 

9 A Anything zero to 50 pounds. 

10 Q And under the average weights 

11 program what are they assigned? 

12 A Thirty average weight. 

13 Q And the plane-side valet bags --

14 first of all, tell us what a plane-side valet 

15 bag 1s. 

16 A A plane-side valet bag is -- it's 

17 basically a bag that has passed through 

18 security 1n the terminal. It may be an 

19 oversized bag that would not normally fit on 

20 the aircraft itself in the passenger cabin and 

21 so it's checked plane-side and given to the 

22 agents to load in the cargo bin. 

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1 Q That's also assigned 30 pounds. 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q Okay. So actually for purposes of 

4 the Cargo Load Report, the cargo load report 

5 specifies heavy checked bags, plane-side 

6 valet, and standard bags. Is that correct? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q And really whether something is a 

9 plane-side valet bag or a standard bag it 

10 really doesn't make any difference because 

11 they're all 30 pounds . 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q And they all end up in the same 

14 place on the airplane. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q Now, the 4100 also governs the 

17 preparation of the CLR. Is that correct? 

18 A That's correct. 

19 Q And the CLR is produced 1n 

20 duplicate, is it not? 

21 A It is. 

22 Q And what happens to those 

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1 duplicate -- well, first of all, who prepares 

2 the CLR? 

3 A A designated loading agent or a 

4 ramp agent assigned to load the aircraft will 

5 prepare the cargo load report after conducting 

6 a baggage count and cargo weight count. 

7 Q Okay. And the designated loading 

8 agent, is this a relatively new position? 

9 A We've had a designated loading 

10 agent 1n our Weight and Balance Program for 

11 quite some time, ever since I've known . 

12 Q And you've been involved with the 

13 Weight and Balance Program for how long? 

14 A Since March of 2008. 

15 Q If a valet bag basically to 

16 g1ve the bag to the valet, you drop it off 

17 plane-side. The passenger drops it off 

18 plane-side or on the jetway and the loading 

19 agent grabs it and puts it 1n aircraft. 

20 Correct? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q Let's say the passenger at the 

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1 last minute decided, you know, I don't want to 

2 give my bag to him. I want to try to squeeze 

3 it in the overhead bin and passenger takes 

4 back the valet bag and puts it in the overhead 

5 bin. Then that 30-pound bag becomes a 

6 16-pound bag. Right? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q Because personal items carried on 

9 board the aircraft only weigh 16 pounds. 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q So with all this average weight 

12 stuff, what we have is just simply an 

13 approximation. 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q Let's go through, for the Court's 

16 edification, the check-in process and the 

17 cargo loading process from the start. 

18 Passenger arrives at the terminal with a bag. 

19 He goes either to the skycap or to the 

20 check-in counter. And the check-in counter 

21 could be manned by SkyWest personnel or it 

22 could be manned by United personnel or Delta 

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1 personnel. 

2 MR. HARPER: Objection. Counsel's 

3 testifying. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ask a question. 

5 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) How many different 

6 airlines does SkyWest associate with and 

7 provide regional serv1ce for? 

8 A Currently we've got four, with a 

9 fifth coming. 

10 Q Okay. And the four are? 

11 A United Airlines, Delta Airlines, 

12 Alaska Airlines, and U.S. Airways. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: At this point if 

14 we're going to talk about a fifth, Mr. 

15 Emerson, 1s that proprietary information? 

16 MR. EMERSON: No. It's announced. 

17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) The fifth being? 

18 A American Airlines. 

19 Q And so when a passenger goes to 

20 check-in, that passenger may not necessarily 

21 be checking in with a SkyWest customer service 

22 agent, could be an employee of one of the 

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1 other carriers. Correct? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q And if it is a heavy bag, it is 

4 incumbent upon whomever the bag is being 

5 checked with, that particular customer service 

6 agent or person, to identify it as a heavy 

7 bag. Is that correct? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 MR. HARPER: Objection. Leading. 

10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) And how do they 

11 identify it as a heavy bag? 

12 A They' 11 put it on a scale and 

13 weigh it. If it weighs over 50 pounds, 

14 they' 11 attach a heavy baggage tag to it which 

15 is usually an orange color. 

16 Q As a matter of fact, in Exhibit --

17 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

18 Honor? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Let me show you 

21 Exhibit C-2. This 1s the FAA's exhibit. Is 

22 -- that orange tag, is that the heavy bag tag? 

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1 A It 1s for Delta. 

2 Q And that's the Delta tag? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q So after the customer service 

5 agent takes the bag, then what happens to the 

6 bag? 

7 A It goes into a baggage room or 

8 baggage transfer area where it's sorted by 

9 flight and placed onto a baggage cart for 

10 delivery plane-side. 

11 Q And then from the baggage cart to 

12 the airplane, how does it get on the airplane? 

13 A A designated loading agent will 

14 place the baggage usually on a belt loader up 

15 to a loading agent within the cargo bin. 

16 Q So there's generally two people 

17 per aircraft to load. 

18 A In general, yes. 

19 Q And one of those two people 

20 prepares the CLR. 

21 A That's correct. 

22 Q And which of the two people lS 

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1 counting bags? 

2 A The designated loading agent we've 

3 we've assigned to be at the belt loader 

4 counting, so usually they would be the one 

5 that is doing that. However, there is some 

6 flexibility for the designated loading agent 

7 to be in the cargo bin as well. So wherever 

8 they're at, that's where they conduct the 

9 count. 

10 Q How do they count the bags? 

11 A They'll do it just manually 

12 through memory, is what we require currently. 

13 Q Now, are there also some 

14 technological aids such as light guns and 

15 scanners? 

16 A There are. There are scanners, 

17 baggage scanners. 

18 Q And does it depend upon which 

19 codeshare you're operating to which procedures 

20 you use? 

21 A It does. 

22 Q So, for instance, if you're 

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1 operating for United you would -- would you 

2 use the United scanner? 

3 A You would. 

4 Q As opposed to Delta you would use 

5 a Delta scanner? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q And does the scanner have the 

8 capability of counting heavy bags? 

9 A It doesn't with an initial scan. 

10 It's a manual entry that requires the loading 

11 agent to stop and manually input the weight of 

12 the bag itself as a heavy bag. 

13 Q And do the plane-side valet bags 

14 undergo the scanning? 

15 A They do not. 

16 Q So in other words, for plane-side 

17 valet it's a manual count or counting on the 

18 fingers or memory. 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q And for and even though the 

21 checked bags may be scanned, in terms of how 

22 you account for the heavy bags it's basically 

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1 memory or counting on the fingers. 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q Has SkyWest looked into any other 

4 possibilities that might be out there or a 

5 means by which heavy bags can be more 

6 accurately counted? 

7 A We have. We've approached our 

8 major partners, Delta and United Airlines, to 

9 upgrade their scanner equipment so that it 

10 might eventually be used to track heavy 

11 baggage so as to not interrupt the efficiency 

12 of the operation. And that to date has not 

13 happened. 

14 Q So the designated loading agent or 

15 the other ramp agent compiles the Cargo Load 

16 Report. 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q It's a handwritten it's a 

19 handwritten form. You just enter the number 

20 of bags. 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q And that's prepared in duplicate. 

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1 Is that correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q And what happens to the 

4 duplicates? 

5 A The pilot in command is given one 

6 copy of the Cargo Load Report, and on average 

7 it's seven minutes pr1or to departure. And 

8 then a copy is maintained at the station until 

9 the end of the operating day when it's 

10 discarded. 

11 Q So at least from a station 

12 operational standpoint, this is a record 

13 that's not required to be kept or maintained 

14 beyond the end of the day. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q Okay. And 1n terms of the pilot 

17 personnel, they're given the CLR. And what 

18 are they expected to do with the CLR? 

19 A They use the information from the 

20 Cargo Load Report to input their data 

21 electronically, and then they discard the CLR 

22 when that's been completed. 

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1 Q Okay. So once -- and they use the 

2 weights 1n the CLR -- or the number of bags 

3 times the weights on the average weights 

4 program. They compute the weight. They enter 

5 that into the computer, the black box that 

6 computes the load manifest, and that's the end 

7 of the CLR. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q They don't have to retain it. 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q Now, oftentimes because of the 

12 nature of the regional airline business there 

13 are some very, very quick turnarounds, are 

14 there not? 

15 A There are. 

16 Q And by turnaround I mean, you 

17 know, from the time the aircraft lands, it's 

18 unloaded, reloaded, and takes off again. 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q Is that your understanding of what 

21 the term "turnaround" means? 

22 A Yes, that's my understanding. 

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1 Q And also by virtue of the 

2 codeshare and the partnerships you have with 

3 var1ous major carriers, there are 1n many 

4 cases bags of arrivals and departures, 

5 everything happening all at the same time. 

6 Correct? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q So at any one time on the ramp 

9 there's a lot of activity. 

10 A There can be, yes. 

11 Q So if somebody is attempting to 

12 make a connection and the incoming flight is 

13 late, it creates a problem vis-a-vis the 

14 preparation of the CLR. 

15 MR. HARPER: Objection. Calls for 

16 speculation. 

17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Are there 

18 situations 1n which passengers are running 

19 late or they may have almost have missed a 

20 connection or may have missed a connection and 

21 they're trying to get on the next flight? 

22 A Yes, there are. 

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1 Q So there are situations where 

2 there are last minute changes? 

3 A Yes, there are. 

4 Q And the CLR is given to the flight 

5 crew seven minutes before the departure. Is 

6 that correct? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q What happens when there's last 

9 minute changes, a passenger shows up with a 

10 bag within that seven-minute window after the 

11 CLR is given to the flight crew? 

12 A The designated loading agent will 

13 work as quickly and efficiently as they can to 

14 retrieve the baggage, make adjustments to the 

15 Cargo Load Report, communicate to the pilot in 

16 command. Prior to making to adding 

17 additional baggage they have to rece1ve 

18 approval from the pilot in command to do so. 

19 Q Are there ever any situations in 

20 which the extra bag can be loaded with the 

21 flight crew's permission without actually 

22 physically amending the CLR? 

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1 A Yes. They can do that via radio. 

2 If the main cabin door has been closed, they 

3 can communicate that verbally to the flight 

4 crew through a headset. 

5 Q Okay. So under those 

6 circumstances what is contained on the CLR may 

7 not necessarily be what's in the cargo section 

8 of the airplane. 

9 A There's potential for that, yes. 

10 Q How about a situation where 

11 somebody chooses to lug their big bag onto the 

12 airplane trying to squeeze it into the 

13 overhead bin, they can't succeed, the CLR has 

14 already been prepared? What do you do with 

15 the bag? 

16 A The flight attendant will usually 

17 wave over a ramp agent to retrieve the bag and 

18 load it in the cargo hold. At that point we 

19 go through the same process of communicating 

20 with the pilot in command and amending our 

21 Cargo Load Report. 

22 Q But 1n some cases it may be 

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1 depending upon time, it may be just 

2 communication with the flight deck and not 

3 necessarily physically amending the CLR. 

4 A Correct. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, I'm 

6 about to go on to another subject, so if you 

7 have a conference call in five minutes, this 

8 would probably be a good time to break. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I've got 

10 2:21. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. I have 

12 2:25. I guess I'm running fast. Okay. 

13 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) During the period 

14 of 2009 through 2011, and you were in ground 

15 ops training and then became manager of CS 

16 compliance and standards, did the issue of 

17 discrepancies between what was contained on 

18 the CLRs and the number of bags that were 

19 physically on board the aircraft -- did those 

20 1ssues arise? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q And was this simply within the 

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1 company that the issues arose, or was it with 

2 other entities? 

3 A Other entities were involved as 

4 well. 

5 Q Who were the other entities? 

6 A To cite just examples of who that 

7 would be would be Delta Airlines, United 

8 Airlines, Delta Global Services, Regional 

9 Elite Airline Services. There are several 

10 vendors in the airlines that ground handle as 

11 well and unload aircraft . 

12 Q And these entities that provide 

13 the ground handling why is that -- why doesn't 

14 SkyWest do it themselves? 

15 A We bid on contracts through our 

16 maJor partners, and so based on costs, the 

17 request for proposals that we submit to the 

18 main line partners, they award a contract to 

19 a ground handling vendor. A lot of it is 

20 based upon costs. 

21 Q In other words, in many cases the 

22 code sharing partner, usually the major 

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1 carrier, the codeshare, will dictate to you 

2 who lS going to provide ground services. 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q And how did these -- the issue of 

5 these discrepancies surface? 

6 A How did they surface? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A Twofold: SkyWest has internal 

9 surveillance, you know, where we measure the 

10 process of aircraft loading, and in addition 

11 the FAA has provided some allegations 

12 regarding the process as well. 

13 Q And were you involved in 

14 discussions with the FAA concerning these 

15 matters? 

16 A I was. 

17 Q And to the best of your 

18 understanding, what were the FAA's concerns? 

19 A Initially the FAA was concerned 

20 about agents accounting for the heavy tagged 

21 baggage. That's where the initial 

22 surveillance came from and call for concern 

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1 and their request for us to revisit that 

2 process and evaluate it. 

3 Q And did SkyWest do that? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q As a result of that revisiting, 

6 did SkyWest undertake certain actions? 

7 A Yes, we did. 

8 Q What types of actions did SkyWest 

9 undertake? 

10 A We first of all evaluated the 

11 loading process itself looking for 

12 opportunities to provide additional risk 

13 controls into the process to achieve the 

14 objective of an accurate flight load, so we 

15 revised our aircraft loading procedures. We 

16 also placed greater emphasis on this process 

17 1n the training by allotting additional 

18 training time within our new-hire classes and 

19 in our certified station trainer conferences 

20 that we hold annually. 

21 Q How did SkyWest revise its loading 

22 procedures? 

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1 A We went through a process where we 

2 deployed some of our training specialists and 

3 other subject matter experts with the weight 

4 and balance process to select locations to 

5 observe the process and to provide an 

6 assessment back to myself for revision of the 

7 procedure, and we added additional risk 

8 controls into that procedure. 

9 Q And with respect to training, 

10 what, if anything, did SkyWest do vis-a-vis 

11 training? 

12 A Like I had mentioned, we took a 

13 look at our initial new-hire training, our 

14 classroom training, and we doubled the time of 

15 that training putting our frontline agents 

16 through additional exercises that would 

17 reemphasize the importance of an accurate 

18 flight load. 

19 We also with our certified station 

20 trainers conducted case scenarios that lasted 

21 the better part of a full eight-hour day 

22 pointing out areas where we could have 

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1 potential noncompliance or potential for error 

2 in the process. In so doing, we -- you know, 

3 our hope and desire was to make sure that they 

4 understood all of the areas where they could 

5 have a potential discrepancy and to act 

6 accordingly in their station and create the 

7 process and oversee the process locally. 

8 Q In terms of customer service 

9 training, was this a one-shot deal or was --

10 was there training given on a periodic basis? 

11 A There was training given on a 

12 periodic basis. You know, initially when an 

13 agent comes in, they receive extensive 

14 training and on-the-job training for this 

15 process. Each year during the months of 

16 August and September we do a recurrent 

17 training which involves computer base 

18 training. Prior to that we also bring in all 

19 of our certified station trainers to do an 

20 instructor-led workshop or multiple workshops. 

21 Q And these workshops have addressed 

22 the CLR discrepancy issue? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q And with respect to this training, 

3 did the FAA participate? 

4 A They did. 

5 Q And who specifically was it, the 

6 Salt Lake SkyWest CMO? 

7 A Yes, it was the CMO. 

8 Q And did they simply attend or did 

9 they actually participate in the training? 

10 A They at tended and observed the 

11 training. And we also have them present during 

12 our conferences as well. 

13 Q Had anybody from the FAA ever 

14 indicated to SkyWest, to your knowledge, that 

15 the training that you were giving to your 

16 customer service people vis-a-vis the 

17 preparation of Cargo Load Reports and the 

18 loading of aircraft wasn't adequate? 

19 A No. I would say the opposite. 

20 Q Did anybody from the FAA ever say 

21 that your Weight and Balance Program or your 

22 cargo loading procedures -- not yours, but 

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1 SkyWest' s Weight and Balance Program and cargo 

2 loading procedures were in any way deficient 

3 or inadequate? 

4 A No. Obviously they're focused on 

5 the objective. So we actually collaborated 

6 back and forth on that procedure, and they 

7 understood it. 

8 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I believe 

9 it ' s now 2 : 3 0 . 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. 

11 MR. HARPER: I believe it's now 

12 2:30. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're just trying 

14 to break his train of thought. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Actually this would 

16 be as good a time as any. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

18 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

19 with anyone. We're going to take a recess. 

20 I'm not sure how long the call is going to 

21 take. I'm going to try to keep it under 15 

22 minutes. So we'll go off the record. 

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1 (A break was taken from 2 : 2 9 to 

2 2:51.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 

4 record. 

5 Remind the witness you're still 

6 under oath. 

7 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Okay. Mr. 

8 Barclay. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

10 Honor? 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: That's a copy of 

13 R- 8. 

14 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'd like to show 

15 you what I have marked as Exhibit R-8. Would 

16 you tell us what that is, sir? 

17 A This 1s a list of weight and 

18 balance corrective actions that have been 

19 taken from July 2009 through December 2011. 

20 Q And --

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on, Mr. 

22 Dworkin. Look at the bottom of the page. Do 

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1 you want to seal this? 

2 MR. DWORKIN: There's no need to, 

3 Your Honor, because the witness will testify 

4 he already presented it to the FAA. They 

5 already have it. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN : Do you have any 

7 problem with it Mr. Harper? 

8 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. It 

9 was provided to me, but it was provided as 

10 part of the under the sealed, the 

11 confidential order, so I assume that was 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 

13 record. 

14 (Discussion off the record.) 

15 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

16 into sealed session.) 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

2 record. This 1s open session. 

3 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 

4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

5 Q Mr. Barclay, would it be fair to 

6 say that with respect to SkyWest's 

7 investigation of the matters which are the 

8 subject of this proceeding today that you were 

9 the principal customer service investigator? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q In the course of your 

12 investigation, did you attempt to ascertain 

13 the identities of the people who were 

14 responsible for loading each of these flights 

15 for which the alleged inaccurate CLRs were 

16 produced? 

17 A Yes, through their station 

18 managers. 

19 Q And you were in fact able to 

20 identify them? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Had any of these employees ever 

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1 had any previous episodes of problems in 

2 completing CLRs? 

3 A Not to my knowledge. 

4 Q And what was done with these 

5 employees? 

6 A Initially just some questioning to 

7 find out what happened in the process from 

8 their vantage point, No. 1, to determine if 

9 the allegations were in fact accurate. And 

10 then from there once we received a statement 

11 from them based on what happened, providing 

12 response to FAA, and additional training would 

13 always take place. If we found an employee 

14 was not following the policy or procedure at 

15 times they would receive step corrective 

16 action from their manager in the form of 

17 discipline. But usually we took the training 

18 approach. 

19 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

20 questions. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

22 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect based 

2 on the no cross? 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Nothing, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Always wanted to 

5 say that. 

6 Any further need of this witness? 

7 MR. DWORKIN: No. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

9 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 

11 excused. I'm going to instruct you not to 

12 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 

13 the conclusion of the hearing. You're excused 

14 from the court. It's up to Counsel whether 

15 you want to -- whether you're free to remain 

16 in the courtroom or not. You may step down. 

17 Counsel? 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just as reminder, 

20 we need to conclude at 4:30, so adjust your 

21 thinking accordingly. As I told Mr. Harper, in 

22 the past I used to practice in front of a 

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1 judge who was -- the big hand hit the 12 at 

2 12:00, he walked off the bench and you could 

3 be mid word. 

4 Ma'am, if you'll approach the 

5 witness stand. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: Actually I wanted 

7 Aaron first. 

8 Maggi, a stay of execution. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN : Just to remind 

10 you, I'm not sure what courtroom we're going 

11 to be in tomorrow. CSOs are always a good 

12 source of information so check with them. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: There is a good 

14 chance that unless there is some rebuttal from 

15 the FAA we will finish today. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you think 

17 all those witnesses in the back are? 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, do you want 

20 to approach the witness stand? 

21 (Witness sworn.) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated . 

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1 State your name for the record and spell your 

2 first and last name. 

3 THE WITNESS: Aaron Williams, 

4 A-A-R-0-N, W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Your 

6 last name again, please. 

7 THE WITNESS: Williams, 

8 W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: MR. Dworkin, since 

10 we're going to have another attorney, have him 

11 identify himself for the record . 

12 MR. VAN GEFFEN: John Van Geffen 

13 from Michael Dworkin and Associates. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell your last 

15 name, please. 

16 MR. VAN GEFFEN: V-A-N, G-E-F-F, 

17 like French fry, E-N. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

19 AARON WILLIAMS, 

20 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

21 was examined and testified as follows: 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

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1 BY MR. VAN GEFFEN: 

2 Q Mr. Williams, what is your current 

3 position with SkyWest? 

4 A Manager, customer service 

5 department, compliance and standards. 

6 Q How long have you been in that 

7 position? 

8 A May 2011. 

9 Q What 1s your aviation experience? 

10 A I began with SkyWest Airlines in 

11 2005 in Salt Lake City as a ramp agent. I was 

12 a ramp trainer shortly thereafter. I did that 

13 for approximately a year, at which point I was 

14 hired by corporate training as a ramp 

15 instructor, moved on to ramp supervisor, 

16 compliance and standards supervisor, and 

17 eventually manager. 

18 Q Your experience as a ramp agent, 

19 did you handle much aircraft loading in terms 

20 of baggage? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Did you ever lose count? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Your current job duties, does that 

3 involve a lot of reviewing the SkyWest 

4 training and what's involved in keeping ramp 

5 agents up to date with what their requirements 

6 are? 

7 A More policy than training, yes. 

8 Q When you say "policy," what is 

9 SkyWest's policy towards training? 

10 A We ensure all agents who are 

11 loading aircraft are properly trained and have 

12 received training with respect to how our 

13 manual states aircraft are to be loaded. 

14 Q Are you very familiar with the 

15 current FAA enforcement action this case is 

16 involved with? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What is your current job in terms 

19 of ensuring compliance to make sure that ramp 

20 agents, the designated loading agents, get an 

21 accurate count when they're loading baggage? 

22 A Can you ask that again? 

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1 Q Your position in terms of 

2 training, are you involved with the CS 

3 conference that SkyWest puts on? 

4 A Yes. I've been involved 1n 

5 conference for several years. 

6 Q Is the purpose of this conference 

7 to train ramp agents, designated loading 

8 agents, on the procedure involved with loading 

9 aircraft? 

10 A The conference itself is to train 

11 the trainers to go back and then instruct the 

12 frontline agents. 

13 Q How long has SkyWest been 

14 conducting these conferences? 

15 A My involvement with them began in 

16 2006. I attended as a trainer. How long 

17 prior to that they were being conducted I 

18 don't know for sure. 

19 Q Have they done a 2012 cs 

20 conference? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Aircraft loading and baggage 

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1 counting, 1s that one of the aspects that's 

2 currently taught during these conferences? 

3 A Yes, aircraft loading procedures 

4 were reviewed at that conference. 

5 Q Have there been constant additions 

6 to these CS conference and the training 

7 regarding the baggage counting and CLR filling 

8 out in your time with SkyWest? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Have you found that all these 

11 additions have helped the agents in terms of 

12 compliance in filling out the CLR properly? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Do you believe that there's 

15 anything that SkyWest could do additionally to 

16 mitigate the human factors involved in 

17 accidently miscounting baggage? 

18 A Not according to my expertise, no. 

19 MR. VAN GEFFEN: That's all. 

20 Thank you. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

22 MR. HARPER: None, Your Honor . 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further? 

2 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you may step 

5 down. I'm going to instruct you not to 

6 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 

7 the conclusion of the hearing. You're excused. 

8 Stand and raise your right hand. 

9 (Witness sworn.) 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

11 State your name for the record and spell your 

12 first and last name. 

13 THE WITNESS: Maggi, M-A-G-G-I, 

14 Aiken, A-I-K-E-N. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

16 MAGGI AIKEN, 

17 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

18 was examined and testified as follows: 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

21 Q Could you please give us your 

22 business address. 

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1 A 444 South River Road, St. George, 

2 Utah. 

3 Q And what is your employment? 

4 A I am director of customer serv1ce 

5 training and standards for SkyWest. 

6 Q And as director of customer 

7 serv1ce training and standards, what are your 

8 principal duties and responsibilities? 

9 A I am responsible for the training 

10 of our ground service personnel, for 

11 responding to regulatory issues 1n items such 

12 as LOis, so forth. 

13 Q How long have you held this 

14 position? 

15 A I've been in this position since 

16 around '87, I believe. 

17 Q And prior to this position were 

18 you with SkyWest? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q In what capacities? 

21 A I was an instructor and also a 

22 station manager. 

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1 Q And can you tell us something 

2 about your education? 

3 A My undergrad is 1n education, and 

4 my master's is in business aviation aerospace. 

5 Q Any other specialized training 

6 that you've undergone? 

7 A Yes. I've been to various 

8 courses, regulatory -- I think it's JDA. I 

9 don't remember all the names of the courses. 

10 I believe they're on my resume. 

11 Q Is that the JDA regulatory 

12 affairs? 

13 A Right. 

14 Q Have you also attended the FAA 

15 systems safety courses? 

16 A I have. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

18 Honor? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'm showing you 

21 some documents which have all been put 

22 together as Exhibit R-15. And this exhibit 

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1 should consist of three SkyWest letters: 

2 December 21, 2010, March 9, 2011, December 14, 

3 2010. Is that what you have in front of you? 

4 A Yes. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to keep 

6 your vo1ce up. 

7 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Can you identify 

8 the signature on each of the three letters? 

9 A Yes. They're mine. 

10 Q So it would be fair to say that 

11 you had authored all these letters and had 

12 signed them and sent them off to the FAA? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And these are SkyWest's responses 

15 to the Letters of Investigation 1n these 

16 cases. Is that correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q In the -- each of these letters it 

19 talks about SkyWest's own review of the-- of 

20 the allegations and corrective action that 

21 SkyWest 1s taking. Is that correct? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q The investigation was done at your 

2 direction. Is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And the corrective actions were 

5 implemented at your direction? 

6 A That 1s what we instructed to be 

7 taken care of and what the stations had agreed 

8 to do. 

9 Q And to the best of your knowledge, 

10 were all the corrective actions that you have 

11 identified in your three Letters of 

12 Investigation been incorporated and been 

13 performed? 

14 A To the best of my knowledge. 

15 Q As someone who's been employed as 

16 director of customer service training for 

17 SkyWest for the past 25 years, does SkyWest 

18 have a policy with respect to training or 

19 importance of the training? 

20 A Customer service has our 

21 department and even starting with the CPO at 

22 the time was very much training -- proactive 

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1 with training. This was the expectation that 

2 we train and be one of the best in the 

3 industry. And that was what I carried out in 

4 our department. 

5 Q Have 1n the course of your 

6 fulfillment of your duties, have you had 

7 occasion to compare notes with your 

8 counterparts at other airlines? 

9 A I have. And where I could pick up 

10 best practices, we did that. We've had 

11 students that have come through class that 

12 have complimented us on our training, that 

13 they felt it was better than anything that 

14 they had received with any of the other 

15 carriers they had been with. 

16 Q And does SkyWest have a policy, to 

17 your knowledge, concerning FAA compliance? 

18 A We -- that is at the top of our 

19 list, to follow the regulations and to set a 

20 good example and to be compliant. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

22 questions, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

2 MR. HARPER: No cross, Your Honor. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ma'am, I'm going 

5 to instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

6 with anybody prior to the conclusion of this 

7 hearing. You're free to step down. You're 

8 excused from the court. 

9 MR . DWORKIN : Ask that R-15 be 

10 received. 

11 And with that, we will rest . 

12 MR. HARPER: No objection to R-15, 

13 Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN : Respondent's 15 

15 for identification is received into evidence 

16 as Respondent's 15. 

17 (EXHIBIT NO. R-15 WAS RECEIVED.) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN : I'm sorry. At 

19 that point, Mr. Dworkin? 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Pardon me? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have just to 

22 be clear, Mr. Harper, I think I'm going over 

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1 your exhibits. At this point I have seven 

2 exhibits identified. Exhibits 1 and 2 were 

3 entered. I don 1 t show that any other exhibits 

4 were offered. 

5 Mr. Dworkin/ I have exhibits 

6 identified as 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 and 8 all of 

7 which were entered. I have 10 and 11 which 

8 were introduced into evidence and 15 which was 

9 introduced into evidence. And that 1 S all the 

10 exhibits I have for you. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: That 1 S correct. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct/ 

13 Mr. Harper? 

14 MR. HARPER: 

15 sure that matches my records I have C-1 

16 through C-3 were admitted as evidence. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. You 1 re 

18 right 1 3 was admitted. 

19 MR. HARPER: 

20 Honor? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN : You 1 re correct. 

22 That 1 s why I do this. Three was admitted. 

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1 MR. HARPER: I have C-4 through 

2 C-6 Your Honor took judicial notice of 

3 earlier. We had 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, C-4 is the 

5 weight and balance control. I don't recall 

6 that I took judicial notice. I don't know 

7 that it was offered. 

8 MR. HARPER: The Weight and 

9 Balance Handbook, sir, was subject of a 

10 pretrial motion for judicial notice. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

12 MR. HARPER: And C-4, C-5, and C-6 

13 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: So 4 we took 

15 judicial notice. I don't have the whole file 

16 with me. That's why. 

17 MR. HARPER: C-100 and C-101 were 

18 not admitted. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back to 

20 C-6. Was that subject to the motion? 

21 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct, 

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1 Mr. Dworkin, that you recall, we took judicial 

2 notice of C-6? 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Judicial notice of 

4 C-6, that 1s correct. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, Mr. Harper, 

6 with respect to C7. 

7 MR. HARPER: C7 has not been 

8 admitted or offered. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then I have --

10 okay. I have C-100 and C-101 marked for 

11 identification 

12 MR. HARPER: That's correct, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN : but not 

15 received. I have C-102 that I received. I 

16 have Complainant's 103 which I've received as 

17 Complainant's 103. 

18 MR. HARPER: That's my 

19 understanding, s1r. 

20 On the Respondent's exhibits, I 

21 agree with your recollection of what's been 

22 admitted, excluding -- with the exception of 

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1 Respondent's 3. I do not believe that was 

2 admitted into evidence. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's the Weight 

4 and Balance Analysis. That was moved into 

5 evidence during one gentleman's testimony. I 

6 think it was received. I've got marked as 

7 received into evidence. 

8 MR. HARPER: My understanding is 

9 he testified to some of the contents, but the 

10 exhibit itself was not introduced. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we'll have 

12 to find the record and check because I show it 

13 was admitted in my notes. 

14 MR. HARPER: In the event it was 

15 not admitted, I would like to move it as part 

16 of my rebuttal case into evidence. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, then, good 

18 news 1s it's admitted. 

19 MR. HARPER: All right, sir. 

20 Thank you. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what I have, 

22 just to reiterate. For the Agency I have 

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1 Exhibits 1, 2, and 3 are admitted. Exhibits 

2 4, 5, 6 were taken judicial notice. Exhibits 

3 7 was not offered. Is that correct? 

4 MR. HARPER: That's correct, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Then we have 

7 Exhibit 100 and 101 were not offered. 

8 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 102 and 

10 103 were admitted. 

11 MR. HARPER: That's my 

12 understanding, sir. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

14 MR. DWORKIN: That's my 

15 understanding as well. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 

17 MR. DWORKIN: That's my 

18 understanding as well. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 

20 Dworkin, I have no Exhibit 1 or 2. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Correct. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have Exhibits 3, 

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1 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 were all admitted. Ten-- there 

2 is no 9. Ten and eleven were admitted and 15 

3 was admit ted. So just to reiterate, Mr. 

4 Dworkin, I have no Exhibits 1, 2, 9, 12, 13, 

5 14. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: That's correct, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Did I 

9 understand that concludes your case in chief, 

10 Mr. Dworkin? 

11 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, it does. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Rebuttal? 

13 MR. HARPER: No rebut tal, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 

16 from either party? 

17 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Nothing from 

19 Respondent, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN : Okay. As I've 

21 said twice, I will wait for the transcript. 

22 The two of you will discuss a briefing 

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1 schedule. I'll get the exhibits back. Make 

2 -- Mr. Harper, just double-check on behalf of 

3 yourself and Mr. Dworkin in a couple days to 

4 make sure that the sealed exhibits don't 

5 inadvertently get in the record. Ms. Matthews 

6 1s extraordinarily conscientious in that, but 

7 it never hurts to double-check. And if it 

8 happens, give her or Mr. Liebowitz a call. We 

9 can get them pulled down very quickly. 

10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, if we can 

11 just take a moment just to make sure we have 

12 a common understanding of what's sealed and 

13 what's not. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. I sealed 

15 Exhibits 7, 8, 10 and 11. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: That's correct. 

17 MR. HARPER: I would agree with 

18 that, s1r. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, if the 

20 two of you after you leave here have concerns 

21 about other exhibits, feel free to bring it to 

22 my at tent ion. I have no problem sealing 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
• 

• 

• 

182 

1 information. 

2 

3 matters? 

4 

5 

6 gentlemen. 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

All right. Does that conclude the 

MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you, 

It's been a pleasure. 

And we'll go off the record. 

(End of proceedings at 3:39p.m.) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
• --~------ ~- ~ ---

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ability 66:17 103:4 

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108:10 151:10 agent 136:3,4,8,10 103:22 104:7,15 allegedly 91 : 11 

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97:16 99:19,21 141:2,6 142:11 113:5 114:18,19 allotting 152:17 

101:6 104:11 143:14,15 147:12 118:2,22 125:20 allow80:22109:14 

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additions 167:5,11 166:7,8,12 167:11 164:19 165:11,13 alter 118:8 

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87:10114:6 44:6 50:13 airframe 27:8 altitude 95:11,12 f 

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administrative aircraft 17:12,13 138:6,11,11,12,18 75:4,10 

1:22 9:10 17:19,21,22 18:20 143:8 150:7,8,10 analysis 4:10 89:20 t 

admission 122:8,11 19:19 29:16,18,21 164:10 173:8 90:13,16 96:10 I admitted 18:13 30:8 33:5 34:7 airman 27:4 178:4 

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180:3 54:17 55:7,13 89:3,4 119:13,14 101:20 

adults 84:3 59:13,14 60:2 135:14 140:12,12 announced 138:16 

advanced 89:5 66:18 67:21 69:2 148:8,12 annually 152:20 

adverse 84:18 73:2,15,19 74:10 airport 65:4, 19 answer 19:16 53:20 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
Page 184 

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appear 35:6 ASI 20:11 27:15 attorney 163:10 32:3 44:6 45:13 141:17143:11 

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appropriateness assistant 63:22 100:12 108:12,19 67:21 68:18,21 67:1,3,5,5,19 

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area 61 :22 81: 15 attached 7:5 A&P63:12 140:5,6 142:12,12 111:1118:20 

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• ~ ~"' ;:;:; ;:,w,,.%.,; ~ 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
Page 185 

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• 

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166:15 15:17 16:2 56:20 149:7 151:22 173:15 certificate 27:9,13 

beginning 90:8 82:8,9 83:4 156:20 181:8 carry-on 30:11 41:17 63:22 72:16 

113: 19 124: 11 128:17 149:8 called 26:13 40:21 78:3 87:19,19,22 89:3 

behalf 181 :2 156:14 157:1 62:20 86:10 cart 140:9,11 114:8 

believe 36:14 77:19 breaking 16:1 113:22 129:13 case 1:7,8,9 5:4 certificates 27:5,7 

• ' * ~ *""""" 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 1 Inc. 

202-234-4433 
Page 186 

• 63:10 89:1,6 civilian 133:4 collaborated 156:5 compiles 143:15 concerning 151: 14 

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103:9 118:22 classification 56:21 color 139:15 71:4 19:13 151:18 

152:19 153:19 classroom 133:1 Colorado 19:7 Complainant's 4:2 181:20 

154:19 153:14 COMAT56:11 32:10,11,13,15 conclude 161 :20 

CFR4:15 17:15 clear 39:13 45:1 58:14,18 49:2 68:4,8,10 182:2 

CG 107:20 46:3 96:21 123:16 combinations 8:9 69:9,10,13 70:15 concludes 180:9 

chance 162:14 174:22 come 5:22 28:8,9 70:17 71:14,15,19 conclusion 39:21 

chances 23:16 clearly 117: 15 29:17 34:7 50:17 71:21 72:4,5 81:12 127:22 

change 14:3 client 25: 17 76:2 82:9 118:7 177:16,17 161:13 168:7 

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80:22 147:2,9 118:14 115:8 119:7 complete 29:15 ConDOR43:4,12 

Charlie 1 7:20 closed 8:8 148:2 154:13 75:9 43:14 48:2 72:22 

check 31:17 74:7,9 closing 8:20 comfortable 24:7 completed 36:22 conduct27:15 

74:16 162:12 closure 8:1,21 comfortably 85:3 37:1 53:10 144:22 141:8 

178:12 CLR 30:3 34:20 coming 11 :20 completely 74:10 conducted 28:14 

checked 30:10 35:6,9,10 36:13 30:19 33:4,5 75:5 64:17153:20 

54:17 58:14,18 37:10,13,20 52:1 36:19,21 37:16 completing 160:2 166:17 

59:9 115:22 52:9 53:1,10 39:15 44:5 45:18 compliance 131:3,7 conducting 29:20 

133:21 134:21 55:17 56:14 58:17 46:8 49:15 54:3,4 149:16 164:5,16 132:22 136:5 

135:5 139:5 58:22 59:14 60:10 55:7 66:17,21 165:19 167:12 166:14 

• 

142:21 75:12 76:11,15,17 76:9 79:14 138:9 173:17 conference 15: 15 

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138:21 79:5,7,14 80:14 147:16,18 148:20 complicate 12:16 166:3,5,6,10,20 

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chief6:21 7:15,16 99:15 102:15,18 common 181:12 compromised 155:12 166:14 

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chips 84:4 136:2 140:20 147:15 148:3 107:2 confidential158:11 

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Chris 125:19 147:4,11,22 148:6 communication 61:4 79:7,21 51:20 55:21 78:10 ~ 

chronology 6:4,11 148:13 149:3 149:2 145:4 146:12,20,20 

6:13 7:5 154:22 167:7,12 communications computed 18:1 conscientious 

circular 108:11,14 CLRs 60:6,14,17 132:6 100:16 181:6 

109:12 118:13 95:7 110:6 149:18 company41:11 computer 145:5 Consequently 

circumstances 159:15 160:2 130:11,14 150:1 154:17 20:20 

148:6 CL-65 87:22 compare 37:13 computes 145:6 consideration 

cite 150:6 CM063:18 126:6 52:14 173:7 computing 60:1,2 116:20 

City 1:15 18:7 155:6,7 compared 30:2 79:6 90:21 considered 3 5: 14 

19:15 27:14 63:19 code46:1 37:16 concept 126:10 51:13 

65:3,6,20 72:22 codes hare 141 : 19 comparison 95:7 concern 151:22 consist 171:1 

90:14,17 99:2 146:2 151:1 compartment concerned 6:9 consolidated 5:4 

111:6112:11 codesharing 66:15 74:11 12:10 85:13 9:17 10:1 '13 94:7 

164:11 150:22 compiled 90:5 151:19 constant 167:5 

• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
Page 187 

• constructed 43:4 116:4,5 124:8,9 142:17 164:22 100:3,16 111:8,19 70:1,5,12,13,18 

65:7 126:2,3,7,8 165:21 112:4 147:5,11 177:15 

contact 55:20 133:16 134:1,2,5 counted 30:7,9 148:4 C-103 4:8 70:21 

contained 85: 15 134:6 135:2,6,7 32:18 33:3 38:15 crews 30:5 59:21 71:22 

148:6 149:17 135:12,15,17,18 39:8 43:19 44:6 75:18 C-2 4:4 67:14 68:4 

contemplates 136:20,21 137:7 45:15 55:6 66:11 crew's 147:21 68:5,11 139:21 

109:12 137:10,14 139:1,2 77:6 97:17,18,18 criticism 14: 1 0 C-3 4:5 68:13 69:5 

contents 3:6 178:9 139:7,8 140:3,21 97:22 105:22 CRJ 34:8,9,10 69:6,11 175:16 

context 8:4 142:6,19 143:2,17 106:3 110:18 102:7 C-4 176:1,4,12 

contingency 95:18 143:21 144:1,2,15 112:13 143:6 CRJ-200 100:21 C-5 176:12 

Continued 123:1 145:8,10,19 146:6 counter 66:5 102:6 104:1 106:7 C-6 176:2,12,20 

159:3 146:7 147:6,7 137:20,20 115:19 118:14 177:2,4 

contract 132:3 149:4 151:3 counterparts 173:8 CRJ-700/900 116:3 C7177:6,7 

133:2 150:18 171:16,21172:2 counting 33:4 cross 3:13 50:5 - ---~--- ~-~---

contracted 27:19 175:11,12,21 38:12 43:16 44:3 127:5 161:2 D 

contracts 150:15 176:22 177:4,12 52:4 74:20 76:19 167:21174:1,2 D5:1 

contro1124:12 179:3,4,21 180:6 83:17 113:11 CROSS-EXAM! ... DAR41:10 

176:5 181:16 141:1,4 142:8,17 33:1 50:6 72:13 data28:19 60:3 

controlling 124:19 corrective 157:18 143:1 167:1,7 127:6 90:22 144:20 

controls 152:13 160:15 171:20 couple 181:3 crystal123: 16 date 12:20,21 14:3 

153:8 172:4,10 course 23:1 36:11 cs 149:15 166:2,19 32:7 143:12 165:5 

cooperative 24:1 correctly 84:3 53:6 159:11 173:5 167:6 dated 114:1 

coordinate 75:11 88:20 117:13 courses 170:8,9,15 cso 120:9,13 dates 21:1 

• 

copy 11:13 31:9 correspond 93:21 court 14:17 16:17 CSOs 162:11 day 9:7 29:20 31:4 

144:6,8 157:12 cost 94:20 28:3 31:10,11 cue 14:18 38:15,18 39:11 

corporate 164:14 costs 150:16,20 44:18 64:13 72:9 current 126:9 50:10 54:17 57:10 

correct 12:19 13:2 counsel2:4,17 5:11 77:19 161:14 130:6 164:2 165:2 58:2 60:9 67:10 

13:4 35:10,15 5:18 6:13 8:10,21 174:8 165:15,18 67:22 69:2 72:21 

50:19 52:18 54:6 11:15 13:7 20:15 Courthouse 1: 14 currently 27:10,12 73:9,20 74:4 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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34:5 70:3 181:14 100 44:22 51:12,12 180:2 

year 13:3,4 123:22 72:4,6 92:16 98:8 15th 12:22 14:4 

154:15 164:13 113:11 125:1 29:11 54:16 57:17 

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26:21 27:2 41:5,7 10148:22 49:2 72:6 16 26:21 78:3 137:9 

41:8,13 130:5 179:7 16-pound 137:6 

166:5 172:17 102 70:15,17 72:8 16012:4 

yesterday 12: 17 179:9 163 3:21 

yield 93:1 103 71:5,14,16,19 168 3:22 

Yoder 7:4,21 8:18 71:21 72:9177:16 17 3:8 19:6 

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40:18,20 107 4:10 1818:15 

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202-234-4433 

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79:4 80:11 98:13 95:22 100:2,3 900 118:16 

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486 10:10,19 684:5 

680 6:5 7:4 8:8 

5 10:10,21 12:9,16 

5 98:12 125:6,8 6801779 14:3 

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50 3:16 51:4,5,10 7 

51:11 92:11,15 7 117:2,4,5 175:6 

133:22 134:9 179:3 180:1 

139:13 181:15 

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79:18 102:7 704:7 

115:20 700 118:16 

700/900 118:18 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 203 

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204 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines 

Before: US DOT/FAA 

Date: 10-02-12 

Place: Salt Lake City, UT 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com