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# S a S

• U.S . DEPARTMEN T O F TRANSPORTATIO N OFFIC E O F HEARING S PRE-HEARIN GCONFERENC E

I NTH E MATTE ROF : FEDERA L AVIATIO N ADMINISTRATIO N 

# RECEIVE D AP R 

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## HEARIN G DOCKBT

COMPLAINANT , V . M& RHELICOPTE R

RESPONDENT . FAADOCKE T NO , CPlOSOOOl l FDM S NO . FAA-2010-121 1

-c r ."• r ' - • '
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' O Friday , Marc h25 , 201 1 Vi a Teleconferenc e Th e above-entitle dmatte r cam e o n fo r hearing , pursuan t t o notice , a t 3:0 0 p.m . BEFORE : TH E HONORABL E RONNI E A . YODER , CHIE F ADMINISTRATIV E LAWJUDG E

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O nBehal f o f th e Complainant : LAURAPONTO , ESQ . CYNTHI ADOMINIK , ESQ . of : Offic e o f th e Chie f Counse l Federa l Aviatio nAdministratio n 80 0 Independenc e Avenu e S W Washington , D C 2059 1 (202 ) 267-986 3

O nBehal f o f th e Respondent : MICHAE L SELIG , MD , FACC , CFI- H of : 281 6 Orefiel dRoa d Allentown , Pennsylvani a 1801 4 (610 ) 360-395 3

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2 3:0 7 p.m . 3 JUDG E YODER : O nth e record . Thi s 4 i s a pre-hearin g telephon e conferenc e i nM& 5 RHelicopte r FA ADocke t CPlOSOOOll . That' s 6 FDM S No . FAA-2010-211 . 7 An di nth e telephon e w e hav e Laur a 8 Pont o wh o i s Complainant' s counsel . An dw e 9 hav e a cour t reporte r wh o wil l transcrib e th e 1 0 proceeding . W e hav e attempte dthre e time s t o 1 1 connec t wit hDr . Selig , th e Responden t i nthi s 1 2 case . An di neac hcas e w e hav e reache donl y 1 3 hi s answerin g machine . 1 4 Thi s pre-hearin g conferenc e wa s 1 5 coordinate dwit hbot hpartie s s o tha t bot h 1 6 woul db e availabl e fo r th e conference . An d 1 7 Dr . Seli g agree dt o thi s time . An dth e pre 1 8 hearin g conferenc e wa s the nconfirme dbya 1 9 notic e serve do nMarc h8 , 201 1 an dserve do n 2 0 bot hparties . Th e conferenc e wa s agai n 2 1 confirme db you r offic e telephonicall y 2 2 yesterday . An dbot hpartie s indicate dthe y


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### 1 woul db e available .

2 Dr , Seli g ha s no t indicate dan y 3 reaso nfo r hi s no t being availabl e fo r thi s 4 conference . Andconsequentl yI intendt o 5 issu e anorde r t o showcaus e wh ya defaul t 6 shoul dno t b e entere di nthi s proceedin g fo r 7 hi s failur e t o compl ywit hth e pre-hearin g 8 conferenc e order . 9 I nconnectio nwit hthat , Ms . 1 0 Ponto , I think ther e ar e a numbe r o f matter s 1 1 howeve r tha t w e shoul dplac e o nth e recor ds o 1 2 tha t yo u canaddres s themi nconnectio nwit h 1 3 an

yshowcaus e filings . Firstly , wit hrespec t 1 4 t o th e violation s i nthi s proceeding , I gathe r 1 5 ther e ar e two violation s allege do r one . 1 6 MS . PONTO : Well , there ' s on e 1 7 factua l scenari o wit hth e violation s tha t 1 8 involv e th e us e o f th e mechani c wh o performe d 1 9 safety-sensitiv e function s fo r M& R 2 0 Helicopter s withou t being include di nrandom 2 1 drug andalcoho l pool s whic har e require d 2 2 unde r th e regulations . Ther e ar e multipl e


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2 sens e ther e ar e multipl e violation s bu t onl y 3 on e individual . 4 W e alleg e tha t h e violate dtw o 5 regulator yprovisions , 1 4 CF R135.251(a ) an d 6 1 4 CF R135.255(b) . An dthos e ar e th e 7 provision s tha t gover n- - 8 JUDG E YODER : Sorry . Yo u 9 misspoke . Yo u mentio n251(b) ? 1 0 MS . PONTO : Yes , I' msorry . 1 1 251(a ) an d255(b) . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : 251(b ) o r 255(b) ? 1 3 MS . PONTO : 135.251(a ) an d 1 4 135.255(b) . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : 255(b) . Okay . 1 6 MS . PONTO : An dthos e correspon d 1 7 t o th e regulator yrequirement s tha t ar e se t 1 8 fort hi n1 4 CF RPar t 12 1 Appendi xI an d1 4 CF R 1 9 Par t 12 1 Appendi xJ . An dthos e appendice s ar e 2 0 th e requirement s tha t se t fort hth e parameter s 2 1 an dth e regulator yrequirement s fo r an y 2 2 operato r t o subjec t safet ysensitiv e employee s


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### 1

2 

### 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 IX 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 I S 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 t o drug an

dalcoho l testing . Andthos e ar e th e regulatoryrequirement s whic hwer e essentiall yviolate di nthi s case .

JUDG E YODER : M

yunderstandin g o f th e answe r yo u jus t gav e me i s two . M y questio nwa s ho wman yviolation s ar e yo u alleging . MS . PONTO : Yes , two .

JUDG E YODER : Two . Okay . No w wit hrespec t t o 251(a) , that ' s Appendi xI . AndI gathe r tha t on e o f th e issue s involve d i nthi s proceeding i f i t goe s t o hearing woul d b e moonlighting . I s tha t correct ?

MS . PONTO : That' s a nissu e tha t Dr . Seli g ha s raised . H e contend s tha t thi s particula r employe e wa s covere db yanothe r company' s random

drug an

dalcoho l testing program Bu t w e hav e evidenc e andwoul d produce dthi s evidenc e a t hearin g tha t thi s individua l di dno t perform th e wor k tha t h e performe dfo r M& RHelicopter s withi nth e

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### 1 scop e o f hi s employmen t wit hthi s othe r

2 company . S o unles s hi s performanc e fo r M& R 3 Helicopter s fel l withi nth e scop e o f 4 performanc e unde r thi s othe r company , it' s 5 irrelevan t whethe r h e wa s covere dwit htha t 6 othe r compan

ybecaus e th e regulation s don' t 7 allo wfo r coverag e b yanothe r compan

yt o b e 8 satisfactory . 9 JUDG E YODER : Well , le t me se e i f 1 0 I understandwha t you'r e saying . Wha t you'r e 1 1 saying i s tha t eve ni f ther e wer e n o objectio n 1 2 t o moonlightin g a s a genera l propositio n- - 1 3 tha t i s using someon e else' s drug andalcoho l 1 4 testing programt o satisf yth e requirement s 1 5 fo r th e Responden t - - i nthi s cas e the 1 6 employe e involve dwa s no t doing th e same kind 1 7 o f wor k fo r th e Responden t tha t h e wa s doing 1 8 fo r th e thir dparty . 1 9 MS . PONTO : Well , th e ter m 2 0 "moonlighting " andeve nth e allowanc e o f 2 1 moonlightin g i s something tha t wa s no t allowe d 2 2 fo r unde r th e regulation s a t th e time tha t



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2 tha t woul dno t prov e t o b e a defens e i nthi s 3 cas e regardless . 4 JUDG E YODER : Di dyo u hea r m y 5 question ? 6 MS . PONTO : Yes , I did . You r 7 Honor . 8 JUDG E YODER : M yquestio nwa s ar e 9 yo u takin g th e positio ntha t eve ni f 1 0 moonlightin g wer e no t a proble mtha t thi s 1 1 activit ywoul dno t b e covere di nthi s cas e 1 2 becaus e h e wa s doin g a differen t kin do f wor k 1 3 fo r th e thir dpart ytha nh e wa s doin g fo r th e 1 4 Respondent . 1 5 MS . PONTO : Well , I' mno t sur e i f 1 6 i t wa s a differen t kin do f wor k o r not . H e 1 7 migh t hav e bee ndoin g repai r wor k i ngenera l 1 8 fo r bot hcompanies . Bu t h e wasn' t doin g i t 1 9 fo r M& RHelicopter s withi nth e scop e o f hi s 2 0 employmen t fo r th e firs t company . Dr . Seli g 2 1 ha dreferre dt o thi s compan ya s Ai r Method s 2 2 an dFligh t Methods . He' s use dbot hcompan y


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2 Ou r inspector s looke dint o bot h 3 an dfoun dtha t thi s inspecto r wa s actuall y 4 Employe db ya compan yb ytha t nam e . Th e othe r 5 compan yha dn o suc hprogram . On e o f th e 6 companie s di dhav e a program . Bu t thi s 7 individua l wa s no t performin g th e wor k fo r M 8 S : RHelicopter s unde r thi s compan yanyway . S o 9 i t wa s immateria l t o th e case . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : You'r e sayin g tha t 1 1 i norde r fo r hi mt o us e a thir dpart yprogra m 1 2 tha t th e wor k don e byth e mechani c woul dhav e 1 3 t o b e withi nth e scop e o f th e employmen t o f 1 4 th e thir dparty . 1 5 MS . PONTO : Exactly . Yes . S o M& 1 6 l iHelicopter s could , fo r example , contrac t 1 7 wit hFligh t Method s fo r repai r wor k an dMr . 1 8 Sake r coul dhav e performe dth e repai r wor k 1 9 withi nth e scop e o f hi s performanc e o f safety

2 0 sensitiv e function s fo r Ai r Methods , 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Yes . 2 2 MS . PONTO : An da s lon g a s h e wa s NEA LR

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1 o nAi r Methods ' rando mdru g testin g program , 2 i t wouldn' t pos e a problem . 3 Bu t i nthi s cas e M& RHelicopter s 4 ha dn o relationshi p wit hAi r Methods . H e 5 hire dMr . Bake r directly . H e performe dth e 6 wor k fo r M& RHelicopter s directly . An d 7 therefor e h e wa s require dt o b e i na dru g 8 testin g progra mfo r M& RHelicopter s an dh e 9 wa s not . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Wher e doe s tha t 1 1 requiremen t sho wu p tha t i t ha s t o b e don e 1 2 withi nth e scop e o f th e employmen t o f th e 1 3 thir dparty ? 1 4 MS . PONTO : Well , tha t woul d 1 5 involv e - - Thi s goe s bac k t o you r questio no f 1 6 eve ni f moonlightin g woul dhav e bee nallowe d 1 7 and , i f i nth e sens e h e wer e workin g fo r thi s 1 8 othe r company , w e woul dno t hav e foun dtha t 1 9 ther e wa s a violatio ni f h e ha dperforme dth e 2 0 wor k fo r th e othe r company . S o th e violatio n 2 1 her e an dth e fac t tha t h e wa s no t include di n 2 2Mfit RHelicopters ' program ; tha t violatio ni s


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1 foun di nth e languag e tha t wa s cite di nth e 2 regulation s tha t ar e se t fort hi nth e 3 complain t whic hi s tha t M& RHelicopter s i s 4 require dt o tes t eac hemployee . An db yvirtu e 5 o f Mr . Bake r workin g directl yfo r M& R 6 Helicopters , h e wa s a nemploye e o f M& R 7 Helicopters , M& RHelicopter s wa s require d 8 t o tes t Mr . Baker . 9 An dunde r Par t 121 , Appendi xI , 1 0 Sectio nBB , M& RHelicopter s - - an dI' m jus t 1 1 readin g fro mparagrap hsi xo f th e complain t - - 1 2 wa s "require dt o tes t eac hsafety-sensitiv e 1 3 employe e fo r rando mdru g testing. " I nth e 1 4 nex t paragrap hw e alleg e tha t unde r Appendi x 1 5 J , Sectio n3(c) , the ywer e "require dt o tes t 1 6 safety-sensitiv e employee s fo r rando m alcoho l 1 7 misuse. " An dMr . Bake r fel l withi nthes e 1 8 requirements . 1 9 Mr . Bake r coul dhav e als o ha dhi s 2 0 ow nprogra mi f h e wer e a nindependen t 2 1 contractor . Bu t h e di dnot . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Le t m e se e i f I

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### 1 understandwha t you'r e saying . I s you r 2 assertio ntha t h e violate dAppendi xI i nan y 3 wayrelate dt o th e fac t tha t Appendi xI wa s 4 amende dt o prohibi t moonlighting ? 5 MS . PONTO : Well , i f thi s scenari o 6 hadhappene dprio r t o 200 4 andi f Mr . Bake r 7 hadi nfac t performe dthi s safety-sensitiv e 8 functio nthroughhi s employmen t wit hanothe r 9 compan

yan dM& RHelicopter s ha da 1 0 contractua l relationshi p wit htha t company , 1 1 the nther e woul dno t b e a violatio nhere . O f 1 2 course , that' s a lo t o f factua l variation s 1 3 tha t ar e no t here . And , yes , i f al l o f thos e 1 4 factua l variation s wer e th e cas e andw e hada 1 5 differen t fac t patter nunde r pre-200 4 1 6 regulations , w e woul dno t hav e take nthi s 1 7 action . 1 8 S o it' s bot hb yvirtu e o f th e fac t 1 9 tha t thi s i s no t a moonlightin g situation . 2 0 Tha t eve ni f i t happene dunde r th e regulation s 2 1 tha t allowe dmoonlightin g thi s wouldn' t hav e 2 2 bee npermissible . Bu t als o th e regulation s

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1 sinc e 200 4 haven' t allowe dmoonlightin g 2 becaus e w e discovere dtha t eve nmoonlightin g 3 pose da safet yrisk . Whe nther e wa s no t a 4 direc t contractual relationshi p betwee nth e 5 companie s ther e wa s n o assuranc e tha t a n 6 employe e wh o eve ni f the ywer e workin g fo r 7 Compan yAi f the ywer e ou t ther e doin g wor k 8 fo r Compan yB an dCompan yAan dCompan yB ha d 9 n o relationshi p betwee non e another , i f 1 0 Compan yB wa s jus t relyin g o nth e statemen t 1 1 tha t thi s employe e wa s o nCompan yA ' s progra m 1 2 bu t the ydidn ' t actuall yhav e an ydirec t 1 3 relationshi p o r an yverificatio ntha t thi s 1 4 employe e wa s actuall yb e subjec t t o rando m 1 5 dru g testing , ther e coul db e a dru g use r o r 1 6 someon e abusin g alcoho l performin g safety

1 7 sensitiv e work . An dCompan yB migh t no t kno w 1 8 abou t i t an dwouldn' t b e testin g thi s 1 9 individual . 2 0 An dthat' s wh yth e regulation s 2 1 wer e rewritte nt o clos e thi s potentia l safet y 2 2 hazar di n2004 .

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1 JUDG E YODER : Tha t relate s t o th e 2 questio no f moonlighting . Bu t wher e i nth e 3 regulatio ni s th e requiremen t tha t ther e need s 4 t o b e a contrac t betwee nth e compan yan dth e 5 thir dpart ytha t i s doin g th e dru g testing ? 6 MS . PONTO : Well , ther e isn' t 7 anythin g necessaril yi nth e regulatio ntha t 8 set s tha t out . I f anythin g th e pre-200 4 9 moonlightin g exceptio nwa s a loophol e tha t 1 0 allowe dtha t whe nther e wa s a contrac t betwee n 1 1 th e two . An dth e amendment s i n2 0 0 4 close d 1 2 tha t loophol e an dth e regulator ylanguag e tha t 1 3 yo u se e no wsay s tha t th e company , i nthi s 1 4 cas e M& R , ha s t o tes t eac hemploye e 1 5 directly . An ds o there' s n o provisio nfo r 1 6 relyin g o nanyothe r compan ywhethe r there' s 1 7 a contrac t o r not . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : I haven' t hear dyo u 1 9 tel l m e wher e th e requiremen t i s tha t I'v e 2 0 aske dyo u abou t an dindee dI thin k yo u sai d 2 1 tha t ther e wa s n o suc hrequirement . Bu t 2 2that' s th e wa yyo u woul dappl yi t i f yo u wer e


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1 applyin g i t pre-amendmen t t o Appendi xI . 2 MS , PONTO : Well , becaus e I think , 3 You r Honor , it' s no t s o muc htha t ther e i s a 4 requirement . Th e requiremen t i s tha t th e 5 compan ytest s th e employees . I f yo u wer e 6 asserting , fo r example , a naffirmativ e dissen t 7 tha t thi s individua l wa s o nanothe r progra mo r 8 i f yo u wer e sayin g tha t th e compan ydi dno t 9 nee dt o tes t thi s individua l becaus e the yha d 1 0 - - tha t ther e wa s a nexemptio nan dther e wa s 1 1 somethin g i nth e regulation s whic hther e i s 1 2 not . I can' t poin t t o anythin g becaus e ther e 1 3 simpl yisn' t anythin g tha t allow s that . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Wa s ther e a 1 5 correspondin g chang e mad e i nAppendi xJ ? 1 6 MS . PONTO : I n2004 ? 1 7 JUDG E YODER : A t an ytim e t o ba r 1 8 moonlighting . 1 9 MS . PONTO : I' mno t sure . You r 2 0 Honor . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : I' mno t awar e o f 2 2 any . I nan yevent , yo u migh t nee dt o addres s


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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 thos e questions . Secondly, ar e yo u allegin g i nthi s complain t tha t ther e wer e Par t 13 5 violation s

- - operations ?

MS . PONTO : No , ther e wer e no t operations . Th e Par t 13 5 violations , thos e ar e jus t th e requirement s tha t a Par t 1 3 5 certificat e holde r conduc t dru g an dalcoho l testin g unde r Par t 121 .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o you r positio ni s tha t th e requirement s ar e base d upo nth e possessio no f operatin g spec s an da certificate , no t o nth e basi s o f operations .

MS . PONTO : Exactly , You r Honor . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Well , i ntha t connection , yo u ma ynee dt o loo k a t th e Everso ncase ? Ar e yo u familia r wit hth e Everso ncase ?

MS . PONTO : I' mfamilia r wit hit , You r Honor . I'l l loo k a t i t again .

JUDG E YODER : I t i s FAADocke t CP99WA000 2 an dit' s a decisio nb yJudg e Kolk o

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• 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 o nJun e 16 , 2 000 . (Discussio nof f th e record. ) JUDG E YODER : Al l right . S o yo u ca nloo k a t that , Ms , Ponto . It' s m y understandin g tha t i nth e cas e Judg e Kolk o conclude s tha t th e inten t o f th e regulation s i s t o appl ythi s requiremen t onl yt o companie s whic har e engage di noperations .

MS . PONTO : Bu t M& RHelicopter s wa s engage di noperations .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Wa s h e engage di nPar t 13 5 operations ?

MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . JUDG E YODER : An dhe' s denie d that , ha s h e not ?

MS . PONTO : I' msorry . JUDG E YODER : Ha s h e no t denie d tha t h e wa s engage di n13 5 operations ?

MS . PONTO : H e ha s sinc e th e inceptio no f thi s civi l penalt ycase . The n he' s take ncertai nactions . I've bee n notifie dtha t h e ha s change dth e compan yname .

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2 file dtha t h e ha s close dban k accounts , tha t 3 h e i s n o longe r operational . Bu t h e continue s 4 t o hol dth e certificate . He' s als o claime di n 5 othe r document s tha t he' s file di nthi s cas e 6 tha t h e plan s t o g o bac k int o thi s busines s 7 full-tim e an dtha t h e plan s t o migrat e int o 8 thi s busines s wit hth e ter mtha t h e ha duse d 9 full-tim e whe nh e wrap s u p hi s cardiolog y 1 0 business . 1 1 H e stil l hold s a nactiv e 13 5 1 2 certificat e an dfro m th e Agency' s perspectiv e 1 3 it' s ver ymuc hoperational . H e ha s change d 1 4 th e nam e recentl yo f th e company , bu t ha s no t 1 5 surrendere dhi s certificat e an ddoe s stil l 1 6 hol da vali dPar t 13 5 certificat e t o operate . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Well , le t m e retrac e 1 8 mystep s here . I starte dou t b yaskin g yo u i f 1 9 yo u allege dtha t h e wa s engage di noperation s 2 0 a t th e tim e covere db yth e complain t an dm y 2 1 recollectio ni s tha t yo u sai dno , 2 2 MS . PONTO : Oh , I' msorry . You r

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1 Honor . I misunderstood . No , w e d o alleg e an d 2 th e complainan t allege s tha t h e wa s an da t al l 3 se t fort hi nth e complain t wa s th e holde r o f 4 a Par t 13 5 certificat e an doperational . An d 5 t o th e bes t o f you r knowledg e h e continue s t o 6 be . 7 I though t yo u wer e askin g m e 8 whethe r w e wer e allegin g an yoperationa l 9 violation s an dI wa s - - S o I wa s simpl y 1 0 affirmin g tha t w e wer e allegin g violation s 1 1 jus t a t th e dru g testin g regulations . Bu t w e 1 2 d o certainl yunequivocall yargu e tha t h e i s a n 1 3 operato r unde r Par t 1 3 5 an dtha t thes e 1 4 regulation s appl yt o him . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Woul dyo u sho wm e i n 1 6 you r complain t wher e yo u alleg e tha t h e wa s 1 7 conductin g operations ? 1 8 MS . PONTO : Unde r paragrap h1 . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Tha t say s h e wa s 2 0 authorize dt o conduc t operations . 2 1 MS . PONTO : Yes . An db yvirtu e o f 2 2 holdin g th e operation s specification s a s i s


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1 ple di nparagrap h2 , h e i s require dt o compl y 2 wit hPar t 12 1 Appendice s I an dJ . 3 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Ponto , I wan t t o 4 mak e sur e w e spea k th e sam e language . Wha t I 5 aske dyo u wa s whethe r yo u allege dtha t h e wa s 6 engage di noperations . D o yo u kno wth e 7 differenc e betwee nengagin g i noperation s an d 8 bein g authorize dt o engag e i noperations ? 9 MS . PONTO : Fro ma regulator y 1 0 perspectiv e unde r FA Aregulation s - - 1 1 JUDG E YODER : Don' t argu e th e la w 1 2 wit hme , Ms . Ponto . Wha t I aske dyo u wa s d o 1 3 yo u kno wth e differenc e betwee nengagin g i n 1 4 operation s an dbein g authorize dt o engag e i n 1 5 operations . 1 6 MS . PONTO : Yes . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : I f yo u don't , sa y 1 8 so . 1 9 MS . PONTO : Well , yes , Bu t ar e 2 0 yo u askin g m e i na nonlegal sense ? 2 1 JUDG E YODER : I' m askin g yo u wha t 2 2 I aske dyo u before . D o yo u kno wwhethe r h e


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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wa s i nfac t engage di noperations ? That' s a

fac t question . D o yo u kno wth e answe r t o that ? MS . PONTO : No t withou t knowin g wha t yo u mea nby"engage di noperations. "

JUDG E YODER : I mea nactuall y operating .

sense ? MS . PONTO : Operatin g i nwha t

JUDG E YODER : Conductin g 13 5 operations .MS . PONTO : I don' t kno wwha t - - I don' t sittin g her e righ t no wkno wwha t operation s M& RHelicopter s wa s doin g durin g thi s period . I d o kno wtha t the ywer e - -

JUDG E YODER : That' s a nanswer . Secondly , the nthere' s nothin g i n th e complain t tha t h e allege s tha t h e wa s engage di noperations . I s tha t correct ?

MS . PONTO : Wha t we'v e allege di n th e complain t i s tha t h e hel da certificat e whic hrequire s - -

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1 JUDG E YODER : Ms . PontO , I kno w 2 Wha t yo u allege di nth e complaint . I f you'l l 3 answe r m yquestions , we'l l ge t throug hthi s a 4 lo t faster . There' s nothin g i nthi s complain t 5 tha t allege s tha t h e wa s actuall yengage di n 6 operations , i s there ? 7 MS . DOMINIK : You r Honor , mynam e 8 i s Cynthi a Dominik . A s Ms . Pont o mentione d 9 earlier , I' m workin g wit hhe r o nthi s cas e a s 1 0 he r managin g attorney . An dyou'r e correct . 1 1 Tha t exac t allegatio ni s no t i nth e complaint . 1 2 Bu t M& RHelicopter s wa s capabl e 1 3 o f operatin g an dbecaus e i t wa s capabl e o f 1 4 operatin g - - 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Dominik , I' m 1 6 happ yt o hav e yo u appea r i nthi s proceeding . 1 7 I' mhapp yt o hav e yo u answe r question s i na 1 8 direc t fashio nbecaus e frankl yI haven' t bee n 1 9 gettin g answer s i na direc t fashion . 2 0 An dwha t I nee di s answer s t o m y 2 1 question s an dyo u jus t provide done . Th e 2 2 answe r i s there' s n o allegatio ni nth e

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1 complain t tha t he' s actuall yengage di n 2 operations . 3 No wwha t I nee dyo u folk s t o d o i s 4 reflec t o nth e Everso ncas e wit htha t i nmin d 5 i nconnectio nwit hanysho wcaus e orde r tha t 6 I issue . D o yo u understan dwha t I' m saying ? 7 MS . DOMINIK : Yes , sir . 8 JUDG E YODER : Becaus e i f Everso n 9 require s tha t ther e b e operation s i norde r t o 1 0 hav e a violation , yo u don' t eve nhav e on e 1 1 alleged . D o yo u understan dwha t I' msaying ? 1 2 MS . DOMINIK : Yes , sir . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Good . 1 4 MS . DOMINIK : I understan dyou r 1 5 argument . We'l l tak e a loo k a t Everson . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : I' m no t makin g a n 1 7 argument , madam . I don' t mak e arguments . I 1 8 a mpointin g ou t a previou s decisio nwit h 1 9 respec t t o th e meanin g o f thes e requirement s 2 0 unde r Par t 13 5 an dI' maskin g tha t yo u folk s 2 1 addres s tha t i nconnectio nwit han ysho wcaus e 2 2 order . Okay ?

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1 MS . DOMINIK : Yes , sir . 2 JUDG E YODER : Than k yo u ver ymuch . 3 Al l right . Let' s jus t - - 4 No wI kno wther e ar e a bunc ho f 5 thing s i nth e filing s abou t whethe r thi s 6 compan yi s o r i s no t i nexistence . Yo u hav e 7 financia l record s tha t wer e provided . I s tha t 8 correct ? 9 MS . PONTO : I don' t believ e tha t 1 0 Dr , Seli g eve r provide dan yfinancia l record s 1 1 t o th e Agency . No . I be l iev e h e jus t 1 2 represente dtha t i nhi s pleading . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : I hav e a cal l comin g 1 4 in . Jus t a moment . Of f th e record . 1 5 (Whereupon , a shor t reces s wa s 1 6 take nwhil e Judg e take s call. ) 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Hello ? Hello ? 1 8 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Jus t a 2 0 minute . Of f th e record . 2 1 (Whereupo na shor t reces s wa s 2 2take nwhil e Judg e continue s call. )



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1 JUDG E YODER : Okay . No wd o I hav e 2 everybod yhere ? Hello ? 3 MS . PONTO : W e ar e here , You r 4 Honor . 5 JUDG E YODER : No ww e hav e Dr . 6 Seli g an dwe'r e goin g t o tr yt o ad dhim . Of f 7 th e record . 8 (Whereupon , a shor t reces s wa s 9 take nt o ad dDr . Seli g t o conferenc e call. ) 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Let' s g o bac k o nth e 1 1 record . Durin g th e tim e w e wer e of f th e 1 2 recor dw e wer e abl e t o reac hDr . Seli g an d 1 3 ther e wa s som e confusio nabou t th e connectio n 1 4 o f hi mt o th e telephon e conference . Whil e w e 1 5 wer e tryin g t o ge t throug ht o him , h e wa s 1 6 apparentl yholdin g th e lin e thinkin g tha t 1 7 someon e fro mher e ha dcalle dhi man dh e wa s 1 8 holdin g fo r th e pre-hearin g conference . 1 9 I nan yevent , h e i s no wwit hus . 2 0 S o w e hav e o nth e lin e Ms . Pont o fo r th e 2 1 Complainan t an dw e als o hav e Ms . Ponto' s - - 2 2 Di dyo u sa ysupervisin g attorney , Ms . Ponto ?


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1 t s tha t wha t yo u calle dher ? 2 MS . PONTO : Ms . Domini k i s on e o f 3 th e manager s her e i nou r division . She' s m y 4 manager . Yes . 5 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Domini k i s als o 6 o nth e line . An dw e hav e no wDr . Seli g an dw e 7 hav e a cour t reporte r wh o i s transcribin g th e 8 proceeding , 9 Dr . Se li g , a cop yo f th e 1 0 transcrip t o f thi s proceedin g - - 1 1 DR . SELIG : Hello ? 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Hello ? Wh o i s this ? 1 3 DR . SELIG : Yes . I' mstil l here . 1 4 You'r e jus t cuttin g out . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Ar e yo u o na speake r 1 6 phone ? 1 7 DR . SELIG : I am . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Woul dyo u ge t of f o f 1 9 it ? Okay . No wi s tha t a - - I jus t wan t t o 2 0Tnakesur e yo udon' t ge t los t i nth e - - 2 1 {Backgroun dnoise. ) 2 2 I' mgettin g feedbac k fro myou r

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1 phone . Wha t sor t o f phon e ar e yo u using ? 2 DR . SELIG : I hav e a Droid . 3 JUDG E YODER : I s tha t a mobil e 4 phone ? 5 DR . SELIG : Yes . 6 JUDG E YODER : Well , we'l l se e wha t 7 w e ca ndo . 8 DR . SELIG : I wante dt o recor dth e 9 conversatio na s well . S o - - 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Yo u ar e no t 1 1 permitte dt o recor dth e conversation . 1 2 DR . SELIG : Okay . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Th e transcrip t i s 1 4 bein g mad e o f th e proceedin g an dtha t 1 5 transcrip t wil l b e th e official recor do f th e 1 6 proceeding . An dothe r transcription s o f th e 1 7 proceedin g ar e prohibited . 1 8 DR . SELIG : Okay . Ver ygood . A s 1 9 lon g a s I - - I' dlik e t o jus t pu t m yreques t 2 0 i ndependin g o nho wthi s conferenc e goes . I' d 2 1 lik e t o pu t myreques t i nu p fron t fo r a cop y 2 2 o f th e transcript . 

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1 JUDG E YODER : Certainly . An dI 2 wa s abou t t o sa ytha t a cop yautomaticall y 3 goe s t o th e FAAan dt o th e Judge , Th e FAA 4 pay s fo r th e transcript . An di f yo u nee da 5 cop yo f th e transcrip t you'l l hav e t o arrang e 6 tha t wit hth e cour t reporter . 7 DR . SELIG : Cour t reporter . I s 8 tha t - - 9 JUDG E YODER : Acop yo f th e 1 0 transcrip t automaticall ygoe s int o th e docke t 1 1 a t som e - - 1 2 DR . SELIG : How ? 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Bu t I don' t kno who w 1 4 lon g i t wil l b e befor e i t get s there . 1 5 DR . SELIG : Oh , wh o - - I' msorry . 1 6 I s ther e a telephon e numbe r fo r th e cour t 1 7 reporte r I ca nhave ? 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Yes . Woul dyo u giv e 1 9 tha t t o hi mplease ? 2 0 Of f th e record . 2 1 (Whereupon , a shor t reces s wa s 2 2 taken. )



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1 JUDG E YODER : Now , Dr . Selig , I a m 2 includin g fro mth e document s tha t you'v e file d 3 tha t yo u ar e no t a nattorney . 4 DR . SELIG : That' s correct . 5 JUDG E YODER : Okay . I tr yno t t o 6 practic e medicin e becaus e I thin k it' s no t i n 7 m ybes t interest . Bu t i nan yeven t I wante d 8 t o aler t yo u t o th e fac t tha t a s th e 9 Responden t i nthi s cas e althoug hyo u aren' t 1 0 unde r oat hstatement s tha t yo u mak e i nth e 1 1 cours e o f thi s proceedin g ar e transcribe dan d 1 2 ca nb e use di na subsequen t proceedin g i f thi s 1 3 goe s t o hearing . D o yo u understan dthat ? 1 4 DR . SELIG : I understand . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : An dyo u understan d 1 6 tha t - - 1 7 DR . SELIG : I understand , You r 1 8 Honor . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : - - willfu l fals e 2 0 statement s ca nb e th e subjec t o f furthe r 2 1 criminal penalties . D o yo u understan dthat ? 2 2 DR . SELIG : Yes , I understand ,

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1 You r Honor . 2 JUDG E YODER : I alway s aler t 3 peopl e wh o appea r pr o s e t o tha t fac t becaus e 4 it' s importan t tha t yo u understand . Okay . 5 DR . SELIG : Yes . 6 JUDG E YODER : No ww e ha dstarte d 7 t o loo k a t th e complain t an dth e violation s i n 8 thi s cas e an dw e ha dgleane dfro m Ms . Pont o 9 tha t ther e ar e tw o violation s alleged , on e o f 1 0 135.251(a ) an don e o f 135.25 5 (b ) . An dw e wer e 1 1 talkin g abou t th e basi s fo r thos e allege d 1 2 violation s an dth e exten t t o whic h 1 3 moonlightin g wa s a facto r i nth e violation s 1 4 an d- - 1 5 DR . SELIG : I think . Judg e - - I 1 6 don' t mea nt o interrup t you , You r Honor , bu t 1 7 there' s a lo t o f issue s eve nbefor e that . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Yes . Well , dea l 1 9 wit hmyissue s an dthe nwe'l l dea l wit hothe r 2 0 issue s tha t yo u migh t wan t t o dea l with . 2 1 Okay ? 2 2 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 

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JUDG E YODER : An ds o a s 1 2 understan dwha t yo u said , Ms . Ponto , yo u thin k 3 th e regulation s prohibi t th e us e o f someon e a s 4 a nemploye e wh o i s teste db ya thir dpart y 5 unles s ther e i s a contrac t betwee nth e 6 responden t an dth e thir dpart yfo r th e us e o f 7 tha t employee . I s tha t wha t I understan dyo u 8 t o say ? 9 MS . PONTO : Yes . 1 0 DR . SELIG : No wthat' s th e - - 1 1 JUDG E YODER : Wait , Doctor . You'r e 1 2 goin g t o hav e t o wait . Whe nI ge t throug h 1 3 here , we'l l ge t t o you . Okay ? 1 4 DR . SELIG : You r Hono r - - 1 5 JUDG E YODER : No . Yo u can' t kee p 1 6 interruptin g me . Okay ? 1 7 DR . SELIG : Okay . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Yo u wil l hav e you r 1 9 chance . I' mtryin g t o clarif ywha t Ms . 2 0 Ponto' s positio nis . Al l right . 2 1 An dyou r position , Ms . Ponto , i s 2 2 tha t ther e ha s t o b e a contractua l

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1 I I relationshi p betwee nth e responden t an dth e 2 ( I perso nwh o doe s tha t dru g testing . I s tha t 3 you r position ? 4 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 5 I I JUDG E YODER : Okay . An d- - 6 DR . SELIG : Bu t - - I' m sorry . I 7 hav e t o le t yo u know . I hav e som e learnin g 8 disabilitie s an dI hav e som e processin g 9 disorder s tha t ar e documented . I hav e a 1 0 littl e difficult yi nthi s format . S o pleas e 1 1 bea r wit hme . I mea n- - 1 2 JUDG E YODER : I'l l bea r wit hyou . 1 3 Bu t don' t interrup t me . Wai t unti l w e ge t 1 4 through . We'l l ge t t o you . Al l right ? 1 5 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . So , Mr . 1 7 Ponto , a s I understan dit , yo u sa ythat' s a 1 8 requirement . Bu t there' s nothin g i nth e 1 9 regulation s tha t say s it' s a requirement . 2 0 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , I' mgoin g 2 1 t o rea dt o yo u a definitiona l portion . Thi s 2 2 i s i n1 4 CF RPar t 121 , Appendi xI . An dthi s

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1 i s i nth e definitiona l portio no f employer . 2 I t says , "Anemploye r ma yus e a contrac t 3 employe e wh o i s no t include dunde r th e 4 employer' s FAA-mandate danti-dru g progra mt o 5 perfor ma safety-sensitiv e functio nonl yi f 6 tha t contrac t employe e i s include dunde r th e 7 contractor' s FAA-mandate danti-dru g progra m 8 an di s performin g a safety-sensitiv e functio n 9 o nbehal f o f tha t contractor , i.e. , withi nth e 1 0 scop e o f employmen t wit htha t contractor. " S o 1 1 we'v e pulle dthi s a s on e exampl e wher e ther e 1 2 i s languag e withi nth e regulatio ntha t 1 3 addresse s thes e provisions . 1 4 I nth e curren t regulatio nwhic h 1 5 ar e governin g thi s proceedin g an di nthi s 1 6 factua l pattern , that' s simpl yno t th e case . 1 7 Thos e ar e - - 1 8 JUDG E YODER : I' msorry . Jus t 1 9 sto p righ t there . 2 0 MS . PONTO : Okay . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Ar e yo u sayin g th e 2 2 regulatio nyo u jus t rea di s no t th e curren t



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1 one ? 2 MS . DOMINIK : You r Honor , th e FAA 3 recodifie dth e Appendice s I an dJ int o Par t 4 1 2 0 abou t a yea r ago . 5 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Thi s i s no t 6 Ms . Ponto . Thi s i s - - 7 MS . DOMINIK : Ms . Dominik . 8 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Dominik , okay . 9 MS . DOMINIK : An dMs . Pont o wa s 1 0 readin g a definitio ntha t i s foun di n 1 1 Appendice s I an dJ whic hwer e actuall yth e 1 2 regulation s wher e th e regulation s wer e 1 3 codifie da t th e tim e tha t thes e violation s 1 4 occurred . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o you'r e 1 6 sayin g tha t th e inspectio nb yanothe r compan y 1 7 woul dhav e t o b e don e withi nth e scop e o f th e 1 8 employmen t o f th e mechanic . 1 9 MS . PONTO : Yes , tha t th e wor k 2 0 woul dhav e ha dt o hav e bee ndon e withi nthi s 2 1 scop e o f th e employment . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : O f th e mechanic . 

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1 MS . PONTO : Yes . 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An ds o fro m 3 tha t perspectiv e moonlightin g doesn' t becom e 4 a problem . 5 MS . PONTO : A s lon g a s ther e i s a 6 contrac t betwee nth e tw o companies , 7 moonlightin g i s no t a problem . 8 JUDG E YODER : Well , wha t yo u rea d 9 m e didn' t requir e anycontrac t betwee nth e tw o 1 0 companies . I t sai di t ha dt o b e don e - - 1 1 MS . PONTO : I' m sorry . Withi nth e 1 2 scop e o f tha t employment , yes , betwee nth e tw o 1 3 companies . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : No , yo u didn' t sa y 1 5 anythin g abou t a contrac t betwee ntw o 1 6 companies . Yo u sai dwithi nth e scop e o f th e 1 7 employmen t o f th e perso nwh o employ s th e 1 8 mechani c an ddoe s th e testing . 1 9 MS . PONTO : I' m sorr yi f I misuse d 2 0 th e language , You r Honor . Th e distinctio nI 2 1 gues s i s on e tha t w e use dinternally . Becaus e 2 2i f somebod yi s performin g tha t wor k withi nth e


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1 scop e o f thei r employmen t o f anothe r compan y 2 w e woul dtrea t tha t perso na s a contracto r o r 3 a s a contrac t mechanic , no t a s a nemployee . 4 I f ther e i s n o othe r employe r tha t 5 they'r e performin g tha t wor k withi nth e scop e 6 o f they ' r e treate da s a nemploye e o f th e 7 company . S o i nthi s cas e th e individua l a t 8 issue , Mr . Baker , wa s a nemploye e o f M& R 9 Helicopters . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Well , yo u 1 1 folk s kee p al l tha t i nmin dan dtha t ma yb e 1 2 somethin g you'1 1 nee dt o addres s t o m e i na 1 3 brie f i f w e don' t ge t thi s matte r otherwis e 1 4 resolved . Okay ? 1 5 MS . PONTO : Than k you . You r Honor . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : An dyou'l l als o nee d 1 7 t o addres s th e impac t o f moonlightin g o nthi s I B cas e give nth e fac t tha t ther e wa s a n 1 9 amendmen t t o Appendi xI an dn o amendmen t t o 2 0 Appendi xJ . D o yo u understan dwha t I' m 2 1 saying ? Hello ? 2 2 MS . PONTO : Yes .

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1 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Than k you . 2 Al l right . 3 Th e nex t thin g w e wen t to , Dr . 4 Selig , wa s th e questio no f whethe r thes e 5 requirement s fo r testin g relat e t o a compan y 6 tha t ha s a noperation s certificat e o r on e tha t 7 i s actuall yconductin g operations . An dw e 8 addresse dth e questio no f whethe r th e 9 complain t allege s tha t ther e wer e an y13 5 1 0 operation s bein g conducted . 1 1 Now , Dr . Selig , a t th e tim e 1 2 involve di nthi s complain t yo u di dhav e 13 5 1 3 specifications . I s tha t right ? 1 4 DR . SELIG : I di dhav e 1 5 specifications , You r Honor . Howeve r becaus e 1 6 o f prett ysever e persona l condition s an dhuma n 1 7 factor s ther e wa s n o pilo t availabl e whic hwa s 1 8 me . An dI wa s unabl e t o carr yo nm yothe r 1 9 function s withi nth e compan ybecaus e o f a 2 0 severel ylitigiou s divorc e an dcustod yissue s 2 1 an da practic e wherea s I couldn' t handle . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 

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2 basicall ysinc e befor e Jun e o f 2007 . S o no t 3 onl ywa s ther e no t a ris k t o th e publi c bu t 4 ther e wa s als o no t eve nth e ris k that ' s a 5 chanc e o f a risk . 6 JUDG E YODER : I go t that , Dr . 7 Selig . T o th e exten t tha t w e ca njus t answe r 8 th e question s i t wil l mov e thi s thin g along . 9 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : S o I understan dfro m 1 1 wha t you'v e jus t sai dtha t yo u wer e no t 1 2 conductin g Par t 13 5 operation s a t th e tim e 1 3 covere di nthi s complaint . 1 4 DR . SELIG : That' s right . There' s 1 5 n o pilot , You r Honor . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : Wer e yo u conductin g 1 7 an yoperations ? 1 8 DR . SELIG : Th e onl ythin g I di d 1 9 i s basicall yflyin g privately . 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Bu t - - Okay . Yo u 2 1 wer e flyin g privately , bu t yo u wer e no t doin g 2 2 Par t 13 5 operation . NEA LR

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1 DR . SELIG : That' s correct , You r 2 Honor . 3 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o i nth e 4 fac e o f tha t I hav e calle dcounsel' s attentio n 5 t o a cas e o f styl e Everso ni n200 0 whic hwa s 6 decide db ya Judg e Kolk o her e i nth e 7 Departmen t wh o sai dtha t th e requirement s fo r 8 testin g onl yappl ywhe nther e ar e i nfac t 9 actua l operations . An di nfac t i f ther e ar e 1 0 no t actua l operation s the nthos e testin g 1 1 requirement s d o no t apply . 1 2 An dtha t cas e i s Davi dEverson . 1 3 An di t i s a ninitia l decisio nserve dJun e 16 , 1 4 2000 . An ds o tha t i s somethin g tha t th e 1 5 Complainan t wil l hav e t o addres s i f thi s 1 6 proceedin g goe s forward . Becaus e i f Everso n 1 7 mean s wha t i t seem s t o mean , the ni t woul d 1 8 rais e a questio na s t o whethe r ther e i s any 1 9 basi s fo r a nallege dviolation . 2 0 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , havin g 2 1 looke da t Everso n- - 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Yes , madam . 

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1 MS . PONTO : Ma yI addres s this ? 2 JUDG E YODER : Yes , madam . Please . 3 MS . PONTO : S o I've pulle dEverso n 4 no wtha t you'v e mentione di t an dthi s i s a 5 cas e whic hdeal t wit hfailin g t o implemen t a n 6 anti-dru g program . An da s i s se t fort hi n 7 Everso na t th e tim e th e compan yha da certai n 8 numbe r o f day s afte r receivin g a Par t 13 5 9 certificat e i norde r t o implement . An di nth e 1 0 factua l scenari o se t fort hthi s compan yclaim s 1 1 tha t i t ha s no t ye t begu noperatio nwhic hi s 1 2 ver ydistinguishabl e fro ma situatio nsuc ha s 1 3 thi s wher e M& RHelicopter s ha dbee n 1 4 operatin g an dma yclai m tha t i t ha dbee n 1 5 dorman t becaus e o f whateve r persona l factor s 1 6 migh t hav e le dDr . Seli g t o no t b e operating . 1 7 Bu t fro mth e FAA' s regulator y 1 8 perspective , onc e a compan ybegin s operatio n 1 9 an dth e requiremen t t o implemen t a nanti-dru g 2 0 progra mcome s int o pla ywhic hwa s don e her e - - 2 1 M& RHelicopter s ha dimplemente da program , 2 2 ha dalread ybee npreviousl yinspected , wa s


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1 alread yoperational an dha dthi s dru g an d 2 alcoho l testin g progra m i nplac e - - thos e 3 requirement s wer e ther e an di neffect . S o 4 it' s ver ydifferen t fro ma situatio nwher e 5 we'r e dealin g wit ha compan ytha t ha s no t ye t 6 implemente dan dthos e requirement s haven' t ye t 7 com e int o pla ya s wa s th e cas e i nEverson . 8 DR . SELIG : You r Honor , i f I ma y 9 comment . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Yes , certainly . 1 1 DR . SELIG : O f th e issue s her e - - 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Th e issu e we'r e 1 3 talkin g about . 1 4 DR . SELIG : Well , we'l l tal k abou t 1 5 basicall ytha t thes e tw o mechanic s a t al l 1 6 time s relevan t wer e alway s o na dru g an d 1 7 alcoho l progra mbefor e an ddurin g an y 1 8 operations . Now , true , the ywer e no t o nm y 1 9 specifi c dru g program . I di dhav e m yow ndru g 2 0 progra m

an dI wa s o ntha t dru g program . 2 1 Bu t I underwen t a dru g abatemen t 2 2 inspectio ni nApri l o f 2004 . No wth e newes t

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### 4 2

• 

### 1 definitio no f employe r i nth e Appendice s I and

2 J hadchange di nFebruary . 3 Th e problemis , Judge , jus t lik e 4 th e I andJ clause s ar e veryunclear , 5 confusing t o yo u andI andeveryon e wh o read s 6 these . They'r e als o no t - - Th e dru g abatemen t 7 inspecto r als o wa s unawar e o f that . S o her e 8 I amgetting aninspectio nb yth e Dru g and 9 Alcoho l Abatemen t Program andh e doesn' t eve n 1 0 sa

yanything abou t a regulatio nchange . 1 1 M yaircraft , You r Honor , i s righ t 1 2 acros s the stree t from th e Allentown- - 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , befor e 1 4 yo u g o further , le t m e mak e sur e yo u 1 5 understand . Yo u ar e charge dwit hth e 1 6 knowledg e o f whateve r th e regulation s are . 1 7 Period . Endo f story . Don' t argu e abou t 1 8 whethe r yo u kne wo f abou t th e regulations . 1 9 It' s no t going t o b e - - 2 0 DR . SELIG : I understand . M yonl y 2 1 issu e i s tha t Ms . Pont o i s trying t o us e a 5 2 doubl e standard . They'r e trying t o hol dme t o

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1 a differen t standard , t o a highe r standard , 2 tha nthei r ow nFAAofficials , first , i nthei r 3 ow ndru g abatemen t progra man d- ^ 4 JUDG E YODER : I' m talkin g abou t 5 th e issu e w e wer e talkin g about , Dr . Selig . 6 S o let' s ge t bac k t o wha t I wa s talkin g about . 7 DR . SELIG : Yes . 8 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Ponto , I 9 understan dwha t you'v e sai dabou t you r 1 0 positio nwit hrespec t t o th e applicabilit yo f 1 1 Everson . Bu t I a msuggestin g tha t yo u nee dt o 1 2 loo k a t tha t cas e an ddistinguis hi t i norde r 1 3 t o procee dwit hthi s case . 1 4 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u understan d 1 6 wha t I ' msaying ? I ' mno t sayin g tha t I 1 7 necessaril yhav e t o follo wEverso nno r a mI 1 8 limite db ywha t i t says . An di f th e questio n 1 9 i s wha t doe s th e regulatio nmea nan dth e issu e 2 0 ma yb e whethe r operation s ar e required , the n 2 1 that' s somethin g yo u shoul dloo k at . 2 2 Okay . No wle t m e jus t see . S o w e


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1 go t t o th e questio no f whethe r ther e wer e 2 operations . And , Dr . Selig , i nyou r paper s 3 yo u stat e a t severa l place s tha t ther e hav e 4 bee nn o operation s sinc e 200 7 o r 2009 . Toda y 5 yo u sai d2007 . 6 DR . SELIG : Well , I change dth e 7 nam e o f th e company , You r Honor . An dw e 8 change dparameter s o f th e compan yi n2009 . 9 Bu t ther e ha s bee nn o pilo t sinc e abou t Ma yo f 1 0 2007 . An dtherefor e I wa s unabl e t o d o an y 1 1 operation s bein g tha t ther e wa s n o pilot . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . No wyo u als o 1 3 hav e state di nsom e o f you r filing s tha t th e 1 4 compan yi s no t i nexistence . 1 5 DR . SELIG : That' s right . M& Ri s 1 6 no t i nexistence . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Okay . No wI shoul d 1 8 aler t yo u t o th e fac t tha t ther e apparentl yi s 1 9 a websit e fo r you r company , M& RHelicopters . 2 0 I s tha t correct ? 2 1 DR . SELIG : Well , it ' s a transitio n 2 2 issu e becaus e myo p spec s ha s bee nwit hFA A



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1 no wfo r almos t a yea r an da half . Th e compan y 2 financiall yha s bee ndiscontinue di nJul y- - 3 I' msorry . I ntha t 200 9 throug hth e 4 Departmen t o f Corporation s i nPennsylvania . 5 S o ther e wa s n o - - Eve nbefor e th e 6 violatio nwa s cited , thi s compan yha dchanged . 7 I t changed . Al l th e financial s wer e closed . B JUDG E YODER : Okay . Bu t doe s no t 9 th e directo r o f - - W e als o looke da t thei r 1 0 websit e an dthe ylis t thi s a s a nLL C 1 1 registere di nPennsylvania . I s tha t no t 1 2 correct ? 1 3 DR . SELIG : That' s correct . It' s 1 4 a nLL C an dth e othe r partne r di djus t giv e m e 1 5 th e company . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : S o i t i s stil l a 1 7 company . 1 8 DR . SELIG : No , it' s unde r a 1 9 differen t compan ynam e now . It' s a differen t 2 0 company . There' s n o longe r anythin g unde r M 2 1 & RHelicopters . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Achang e i nth e name , 

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1 Dr . Selig , doe s no t chang e th e existenc e o f 2 th e company . Th e fac t tha t yo u change dth e 3 nam e doe s no t mea nth e compan ydoesn' t exist * 4 I t jus t mean s i t exist s wit ha differen t name . 5 DR . SELIG : That' s true , Judge . 6 It' s actuall yth e sam e certificat e number . 7 Th e FA

Aeve nthoug hI mad e a nam e change , 8 right , the ywante dt o kee p m ysam e certificat e 9 number . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : S o th e fac t i s tha t 1 1 th e compan ydoe s exist * 1 2 DR . SELIG : Well , unde r - - 1 3 JUDG E YODER : S o you r statement s i t 1 4 doesn' t exis t wer e jus t wrong . 1 5 DR . SELIG : Unde r M& RHelicopter s 1 5 i t doesn' t exist . I t exist s unde r D R 1 7 Helicopters . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : I' mtalkin g abou t th e 1 9 company , no t th e name . Th e compan ydoe s 2 0 exist . I s tha t correct ? 2 1 DR . SELIG : Well , I mea na compan y 2 2 exists .

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1 JUDG E YODER : An dyou'v e change d 2 th e nam e t o D RHelicopters . I s tha t right ? 3 DR . SELIG : Right . Yes . 4 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dyo u 5 provide dsom e ta xretur ninformatio nwit h 6 respec t t o M& RHelicopters , di dyo u not ? 7 DR . SELIG : That' s correc t becaus e 8 a t tha t tim e tha t wa s th e name . 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An d- - 1 0 DR , SELIG : It' s a - - operatio n 1 1 becaus e I haven' t bee nabl e t o d o flight s 1 2 becaus e there' s n o pilot . S o it' s los t mone y 1 3 fo r th e las t bunc ho f years , fiv e year s o r so . 1 4 S o it' s a - - operation . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : S o th e D RHelicopter s 1 6 balanc e shee t woul dals o sho wa negativ e ne t 1 7 worth . 1 8 DR . SELIG : Absolutely . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . No wdoe s th e 2 0 compan ywebsit e sa ytha t you'r e availabl e t o 2 1 d o Par t 9 1 operations ? 2 2 DR . SELIG : Yes , i t does .

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1 JUDG E YODER : Bu t yo u aren' t doin g 2 it . 3 DR . SELIG : I t say s n o 1 3 5 4 operations . 5 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Bu t yo u aren' t 6 doin g an y- - I t say s tha t ther e ar e n o 13 5 7 operations . 8 DR . SELIG : Yes . I t doe s sa ythat . 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o you'r e onl y 1 0 doin g Par t 91 . 1 1 DR . SELIG : That' s right . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay , 1 3 DR . SELIG : An dI' m no t eve ndoin g 1 4 tha t really . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e a nam e 1 6 chang e pendin g wit hth e FAA ? I s tha t correct ? 1 7 DR . SELIG : That' s correct . Yeah . 1 8 The yha dm e red o al l m yoperationa l 1 9 specification s an dcomplianc e statements . 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 2 1 DR . SELIG : It' s takin g - - My 2 2 inspecto r retired . S o everythin g go t delaye d

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1 a lot . 2 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Well , 3 let' s loo k a t th e propose dcivi l penalt yhere . 4 Ms . Ponto , ca nyo u tel l m e ho wthi s civi l 5 penalt ywa s computed? 6 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . Th e 7 civi l penalt ywa s propose dconsisten t wit hFAA 8 Orde r 2153(b ) whic hi s th e guidanc e fo r al l 9 civi l penaltie s o f thi s nature . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : You'r e tellin g m e 1 1 thing s I alread ykno wan dno t tha t I as k you . 1 2 MS . PONTO : Okay . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Myquestio nwa s ca n 1 4 yo u tel l m e ho wth e penalt ywa s computed . 1 5 MS . PONTO : Well , unde r th e order , 1 6 w e conside r a numbe r o f factors . An di nthi s 1 7 cas e w e considere dal l o f th e availabl e 1 8 factor s an dw e propose d- - 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Ho wwa s th e penalt y 2 0 wa s computed ? 2 1 MS . PONTO : Well , i t wa s on e 2 2 employe e an di t wa s tw o violation s o f th e dru g


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1 an dalcoho l testin g regulations . Th e maximu m 2 civi l penalt ywa s $11,000 . A t thi s point , w e 3 propos e th e civi l penalt yo f $4400 . 4 JUDG E YODER : Th e maximu mfo r on e 5 violatio no r th e maximu mfo r two ? 6 MS . PONTO : Th e maximu mfo r on e 7 violatio ni s $11,000 . S JUDG E YODER : Okay . An ds o th e 9 maximu mfo r tw o violation s woul db e $22 , 00 0 o r 1 0 wer e yo u figurin g i t onl yo nth e basi s o f on e 1 1 violation ? 1 2 MS . PONTO : W e figure di t a s th e 1 3 violatio ninvolvin g on e employee . S o w e 1 4 treate di t a s on e violation . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Ah . 1 6 MS . PONTO : Yes . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Well , previousl ywhe n 1 8 1 aske dyo u ho wman yviolation s wer e involve d 1 9 an dyo u tol dm e two , yo u misspoke . 2 0 MS . PONTO : I ha dclarified . You r 2 1 Honor , tha t ther e wer e tw o regulator y 2 2 violation s wit hon e employee . 

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1 JUDG E YODER : Well , that' s sor t o f 2 a - - clarificatio nwhic hdoesn' t hel p me . M y 3 questio nwa s ho wman yviolation s ar e yo u 4 allegin g an dI' mno whearin g yo u sa ytha t 5 you'r e allegin g on e base do non e employe e an d 6 tw o regulations . 7 MS . PONTO : Fo r purpose s o f 8 proposin g th e civi l penalt yw e considere dthi s 9 on e violation . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Okay . A l 1 right . 1 1 No wi ndoin g tha t di dyo u conside r abilit yt o 1 2 pay ? 1 3 MS . PONTO : W e considere dth e 1 4 informatio ntha t w e ha davailabl e abou t th e 1 5 compan ya t th e tim e tha t w e propose dth e civi l 1 6 penalt ydurin g th e informa l conferenc e i nthi s 1 7 matter . Dr . Seli g wa s give nth e opportunit y 1 8 t o presen t financia l informatio nabou t th e 1 9 stat e o f th e compan yan dh e declined . 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Well , w e hav e som e 2 1 her e i nth e filings . I s tha t - - I thin k the y 2 2 wer e attache dt o on e o f hi s motion s maybe .

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1 DR . SELIG : Th e on e fo r huma n 2 factor s I hav e my- - 3 JUDG E YODER : I ' v e go t i t righ t 4 here . Respondent' s Repl yt o Complainant' s 5 Lat e Respons e t o Respondent' s Motio nt o 6 Dismis s an dMotio nt o Strik e Allegations , 7 That' s somethin g receive di ndocke t Decembe r 8 29 , 201 0 whic hattache s a profi t o r los s fro m 9 th e business . Ar e yo u familia r wit hthat , Ms . 1 0 Ponto ? 1 1 MS . PONTO : Wha t wa s th e dat e o f 1 2 servic e o f tha t document ? 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Th e docke t stampe d 1 4 dat e i s Decembe r 29 . I can' t tel l yo u th e 1 5 dat e o f service . I ma yb e abl e t o i na 1 6 minute . Decembe r 29 , 2010 . Le t m e see . I t 1 7 doesn' t appea r t o hav e a certificat e o f 1 8 service . Wai t a minute . Mayb e a t th e end . 1 9 No . Bu t i t wa s stampe dint o th e docke t 2 0 sectio no nDecembe r 29 , 201 0 an di t attache s 2 1 a profi t o r los s fro m busines s listin g Michae l 2 2 Seli g a s th e proprietor . An dth e principa l



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1 busines s i s Helicopte r transportation . 2 Busines s nam e M& RHelicopter s LLC . 3 D o yo u hav e that ? 4 MS . DOMINIK : We'r e looking , You r 5 Honor . 6 JUDG E YODER : Yes . That' s a 200 7 7 an d200 8 profi t o r los s fro m Busines s Schedul e 8 C . Bu t obviousl yi f yo u don' t kno wi t exist s 9 yo u didn' t tak e i t int o accoun t i nconsiderin g 1 0 th e leve l o f penalty . 1 1 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , I' m lookin g 1 2 fo r th e pleading . Obviousl yther e wer e a lo t 1 3 i nth e spreadshee t tha t I hav e her e organize d 1 4 chronicall yb yth e dat e o f service . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Yes , I know . 1 6 MS . PONTO : Bu t I don' t recal l 1 7 seein g financia l document s attache dt o an y 1 8 documents . I f w e ha dreceive dthem , o f 1 9 course , w e woul dhav e provide dthe mt o a n 2 0 economis t o r a nappropriat e perso nt o evaluat e 2 1 the man dt o tak e int o accoun t whethe r i t woul d 2 2 warran t a reductio ni npenalty .

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1 JUDG E YODER : I nan yevent , ar e yo u 2 awar e o f th e fac t tha t thi s M& RHelicopter s 3 i s a nLLC ? 4 MS . PONTO : I don' t recal l offhand . 5 I believe , yes . Yes . 6 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno wwha t a n 7 LL C is ? 8 MS . PONTO : Yes . 9 JUDG E YODER : Unde r Pennsylvani a 1 0 law ? 1 1 MS . PONTO : Yes , I' mawar e o f wha t 1 2 a nLL C is . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An di f ther e 1 4 wer e a civi l penalt yi nthi s case , the ni s i t 1 5 you r understandin g tha t i t woul dhav e t o b e 1 6 collecte dfro m M& RHelicopters ? 1 7 MS . PONTO : Yes . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : An di f tha t compan y 1 9 ha s a negativ e ne t wort ha s o f th e tim e o f th e 2 0 violation s and/o r th e tim e o f th e penalt yho w 2 1 woul dyo u propos e t o collec t th e penalty ? 2 2 MS . PONTO : Well , w e woul dhav e t o


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1 tak e int o accoun t th e financia l document s tha t 2 wer e provided . We , o f course , dea l al l th e 3 tim e wit hcompanie s tha t ar e i na situatio no f 4 financia l hardship , sometime s companie s tha t 5 ar e i nbankruptcy . An dw e hav e procedure s fo r 6 dealin g wit htha t whethe r i t b e t o fil e a n 7 appropriat e clai mo r - - W e woul dnee dth e 8 document s t o conside r that . An di f ther e ar e 9 suc hdocument s fro mth e tim e fram e her e w e 1 0 remai nwillin g t o conside r that . 1 1 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , d o yo u 1 2 hav e mor e curren t Schedul e C s fo r you r M& R 1 3 o r wha t it' s no wcalled ? 1 4 DR . SELIG : (Inaudible ) that' s 1 5 showin g $20,00 0 plu s o r mor e i nlosses . Yes . 1 6 They'r e al l losses . Judge . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Coul dyo u provid e 1 8 thos e t o Ms . Ponto ? 1 9 DR . SELIG : Yes . I mea nI als o 2 0 tol dMs . Pont o o nou r prio r discussion s i n 2 1 anothe r pretria l hearin g tha t bu t sh e didn' t 2 2 wan t t o hea r i t mycompan yhasn' t mad e mone y


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1 fo r year s an dI hav e n o pilot . 2 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , we ' r e 3 tryin g t o ge t throug hthi s an dw e starte da n 4 hou r late . 5 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 6 JUDG E YODER : S o jus t answe r my 7 questions . We'l l ge t alon g a lo t faster . 8 Wil l yo u provid e a cop yo f tha t t o Ms . Ponto ? 9 DR . SELIG : D o yo u wan t 2009 ? 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Whateve r yo u have . 1 1 D o yo u hav e - - 1 2 DR . SELIG : Okay . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Thi s i s 200 7 an d 1 4 2008 . 1 5 DR . SELIG : Right . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : S o yo u hav e '0 9 bu t 1 7 yo u don' t hav e '1 0 yet . 1 8 DR . SELIG : Right . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 2 0 DR . SELIG : '10 . I mea nI don' t 2 1 hav e '1 0 yet . Right . I hav e '09 , I coul d 2 2 fa xtha t t o yo u a t an ypoint .

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1 JUDG E YODER : Tha t woul db e fine . 2 An dyo u coul dfa xi t t o he r an dyo u coul dfa x 3 i t t o m e a s wel l s o I ca nkee p u p t o spee do n 4 what' s goin g on . Myfa xnumbe r i s 2 0 2 - - 5 DR . SELIG : Wai t a second . Okay . 6 G o ahead * 7 JUDG E YODER : 202-366-7536 , S DR . SELIG : Tha t on e woul dprobabl y 9 work . Th e othe r on e doesn' t work . Okay . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 1 1 MS . PONTO : And , You r Honor ? 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Yes , madam . 1 3 MS . PONTO : Wha t w e typicall y 1 4 reques t i s a minimu mo f thre e year s o f ta x 1 5 form s an dfinancia l documents . Fo r th e ta x 1 6 forms , th e schedule s ar e particularl y 1 7 importan t fo r u s t o analyz e th e financia l 1 8 stat e o f th e company . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . I'l l le t yo u 2 0 pursu e tha t wit hhi mafte r w e ge t throug h 2 1 here . Bu t yo u alread yhav e 200 7 an d200 8 an d 2 2 '0 9 woul dmak e thre e years . Wha t els e woul d

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1 yo u nee dbeside s th e Schedul e C ? D o yo u hav e 2 3 MS . PONTO : Well , w e reques t th e 4 complet e schedules . An dw e woul dreques t a t 5 thi s poin t tha t Dr . Seli g sen dal l thre e o f 5 thos e year s becaus e w e haven' t bee nabl e t o 7 locat e i nou r file s tha t w e receive dth e 8 financia l document s tha t yo u appea r t o have * 9 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno wi f ther e 1 0 ar e othe r schedules , Dr . Selig ? 1 1 DR . SELIG : Ou r schedules ? Wha t d o 1 2 yo u mean ? Myta x- ~ 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Yes . 1 4 DR . SELIG : I t ha s n o income . Thi s 1 5 compan yha s essentiall yn o incom e i nterm s o f 1 6 expenses . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , tr yt o 1 8 remembe r myquestio nan danswe r it . D o yo u 1 9 hav e othe r schedules ? 2 0 DR . SELIG : Yes . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u kno wi f ther e 2 2 ar e othe r schedule s beside s th e Schedul e C



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1 filin g fo r thi s company ? That' s a do-you-kno w 2 question . 3 DR . SELIG : No , I' mno t familia r 4 wit hthat . I kno wthere' s a Schedul e C . 5 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Th e answe r i s 6 no . I f yo u hav e othe r schedules , woul dyo u 7 sen dthos e t o m e an dMs . Pont o a t th e sam e 8 tim e o r whe nyo u ca nge t them ? Okay ? 9 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Al l right , Than k 1 1 you . 1 2 No wi f thi s cas e shoul dg o t o 1 3 hearing , Dr . Selig , I gathe r yo u woul drais e 1 4 th e questio no f abilit yt o pay . I s tha t 1 5 correct ? 1 6 DR . SELIG : Absolutely , You r Honor . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : An dca nyo u - - An d 1 8 yo u ca nreflec t o nwha t th e effec t o f th e 1 9 penalt yrequeste di nthi s cas e woul db e o nth e 2 0 abilit yo f you r compan yt o continu e i n 2 1 business . Ar e yo u i na positio nt o sa y 2 2 anythin g abou t tha t now ?

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• 1 DR . SELIG : Well , I a mgoin g t o

2 leav e th e practic e o f medicin e shortly . I' m 3 hopin g t o transitio nfull-tim e int o thi s 4 business . 5 JUDG E YODER : Don' t answe r othe r 6 question s tha t haven' t bee nasked . Dr . Selig . 7 Answe r th e questio nI asked . D o yo u kno wth e 8 effec t o f a penalt yo f thi s siz e o nth e 9 abilit yo f M& Ro r it s rename dalte r eg o t o 1 0 continu e i nbusiness ? 1 1 DR . SELIG : I wil l probabl yshu t 1 2 th e compan ydow ni f I hav e t o - - i f thi s kin d 1 3 o f behavio r continue s agains t a smal l company . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : Now , Dr . Selig , don' t 1 5 g o there . Jus t answe r myquestion . An di f 1 6 th e answe r i s yo u woul dprobabl yhav e t o shu t 1 7 i t down , that' s on e answer . I f yo u woul d 1 8 probabl yshu t i t down , that' s a differen t 1 9 answer . Whic hanswe r ar e yo u givin g me ? 2 0 DR . SELIG : Well , I probabl ywoul d 2 1 shu t i t down . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Al l right .

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1 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 No wlet' s mov e o nthen . Let' s see . Ther e wa s

a questio nraise dabou t th e venu e o f thi s case . I f i t goe s t o hearing , it' s no t a t al l certai ntha t I woul db e th e on e doin g th e hearing . Bu t nevertheles s th e venu e woul d
ver ylikel yb e i nAllentown .

DR . SELIG : Yes . JUDG E YODER : There' s th e Distric t Cour t there . There' s n o reaso nwh yi t couldn' t b e there . A s th e FAAknows , w e tr y t o hol dthes e a t a sit e tha t doesn' t penaliz e th e respondent . S o w e woul dtentativel y schedul e thi s fo r a hearin g i nAllentown .

Al l right . No ww e hav e severa l motion s pending . An da s a matte r o f fac t I thin k yo u hav e file dsomethin g lik e 4 4 motion s i nthi s case , Dr . Selig .

DR . SELIG : I thin k it' s close r t o 58 . JUDG E YODER : Well , whateve r it' s close r t o i t come s ver yclos e t o bein g a n abusiv e proces s an di f i t doesn' t g o wel l

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1 beyon dthat . 2 DR . SELIG : Ma yI commen t o nthat ? 3 JUDG E YODER : No t yet . 4 DR . SELIG : Okay . 5 JUDG E YODER : I thin k a t thi s poin t 6 w e nee dt o kno wwhic ho f thos e motion s yo u 7 conside r t o b e curren t i f an yo f them . An d 8 whe nw e ge t throug hher e today , yo u ca n 9 reflec t o ntha t becaus e whe nw e ge t throug h 1 0 her e toda yI thin k wha t I wil l d o i s 1 1 essentiall ydenyal l th e motion s a s the yexis t 1 2 no wwit ha requiremen t tha t yo u refil e i na 1 3 singl e motio nanyremainin g question s tha t w e 1 4 don' t dispos e o f today . 1 5 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : It' s no t m y 1 7 anticipatio nt o wad e throug h5 0 motion s tha t 1 8 yo u filed , man yo f whic har e redundant . The y 1 9 addres s concern s tha t don' t relat e t o thi s 2 0 case . The yrel yo nprinciple s o f la wtha t 2 1 don' t exist . An ds o w e jus t aren' t goin g t o 2 2 g o there .

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1 An dI hop e tha t I won' t se e a 2 repea t o f thi s kin do f practic e i nth e future . 3 Generally , i f yo u sa ysomethin g t o m e onc e 4 it' s goin g t o b e enough . An dI wil l no t b e 5 happ yt o hav e thing s sai dt o m e twic e i f 6 they'v e bee n- - unles s I as k yo u to . 7 S o no wyou'v e mad e a referenc e i n 8 on e o f you r pleading s t o judicial estoppel . 9 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : N o suc hprinciple . 1 1 Forge t abou t it . Yo u referenc e a nApri l 4 1 2 inspectio nwhic hthe yhandle di na differen t 1 3 wa yfro mth e wa ythe yhandle dthi s one . I t 1 4 doesn' t matter . That' s no t what' s a t issue . 1 5 What' s a t issu e i nthi s cas e an d 1 6 you' dd o wel l t o focu s o ni t i s whethe r ther e 1 7 wa s a violatio no f thes e tw o regulation s a t 1 8 issu e here . An dthat' s wha t I'v e bee ntryin g 1 9 t o focu s o ntoda yan dI woul dsugges t tha t 2 0 you' dd o bette r t o addres s you r attentio nt o 2 1 thos e questions . An di f there' s a violatio n 2 2 wha t th e leve l o f penalt yshoul db e fo r thi s


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1 company . Al l right . 2 No wthere' s a lo t o f reference s t o 3 untimel yresponses . Yo u nee dt o understan d 4 tha t th e servic e dat e i s th e dat e whe nthing s 5 ar e mailed . I nanyevent , yo u wil l fin dtha t 6 I a mmuc hmor e incline dt o decid e question s 7 an dcase s o nth e basi s o f substantiv e issues , 8 no t procedura l technicalities . 9 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : I f I wer e t o rel yo n 1 1 procedura l technicalities , yo u migh t b e i na 1 2 ver ydee p boa t a t thi s point . 1 3 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : Yo u raise da questio n 1 5 abou t Ms . Ponto' s attorne ystatus . Som e o f 1 6 th e thing s yo u sai di nthos e pleading s 1 7 essentiall yar e clos e t o defamation . An dyo u 1 8 nee dt o kee p tha t i nmin dwhe nyo u mak e 1 9 filings . 2 0 Bu t i nan yeven t I don' t kno wo f 2 1 an yrequiremen t i nth e FAArule s tha t FAAb e 2 2 represente db ya nattorney . Ar e yo u awar e o f



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1 anysuc hrequirement , Ms . Ponto ? 2 MS . PONTO : No , You r Honor . 3 JUDG E YODER : Yes . I don' t thin k 4 you'l l fin dtha t i nth e regulations . 5 Mr . Selig , yo u aren' t represente d 6 b ya nattorney . An ds o fa r a s I kno wthere' s 7 n o requiremen t tha t th e FA Ab e represente db y 8 a nattorney . I hav e n o reaso nt o suspec t tha t 9 Ms . Pont o i s no t a nattorne yan dI thin k yo u 1 0 shoul dge t of f o f tha t question . It' s no t a n 1 1 issu e i nthi s cas e an dit' s no t goin g t o be . 1 2 Okay . 1 3 DR . SELIG : Well , I merel ywa s 1 4 inquirin g - - 1 5 JUDG E YODER : Yo u weren' t jus t 1 6 inquiring . Dr . Selig . Ther e i s n o woo l ove r 1 7 m yeyes . I've see nth e pleading s tha t hav e 1 8 bee nfiled . I kno wwha t you'v e said . An dyo u 1 9 woul d- - 2 0 DR . SELIG : You r Honor . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Yo u woul dd o wel l t o 2 2 liste nt o wha t I' msayin g rathe r tha n

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1 interruptin g m e an dtryin g t o argu e wit hwha t 2 I' m

saying . Tha t i s no t a nissu e i nthi s 3 case . It' s no t goin g t o b e a nissu e i nthi s 4 case . Forge t it . Okay . 5 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 6 JUDG E YODER : Deposition s ar e 7 requeste dfo r attorney s i nthi s case . I don' t 8 hav e an yide a wha t that' s abou t excep t i t ha s 9 somethin g t o d o wit hwhethe r somebod yca n 1 0 trave l t o Allentown , Pennsylvania . Yo u don' t 1 1 nee ddeposition s fo r tha t questio nan dthos e 1 2 request s ar e goin g t o b e denied , 1 3 Yo u ha da motio nrelate dt o 1 4 changin g th e regulation s o r relate dt o th e 1 5 fac t tha t th e regulation s wer e changed . 1 6 You'r e presume dt o kno wwha t th e regulation s 1 7 are . Yo u migh t no t lik e tha t an dI ca n 1 8 understan dyou r proble mwit hno t knowin g wha t 1 9 al l th e regulation s are . Bu t th e fac t i s th e 2 0 reg s ar e wha t the yar e an dthat' s wha t yo u 2 1 hav e t o dea l with . Al l right . 2 2 DR . SELIG : You r Honor , ca nI

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1 commen t o ntha t fo r a moment ? 2 JUDG E YODER : Whe nI ge t through . 3 You'v e file da reques t t o chang e som e o f th e 4 regulations . W e don' t hav e an yjurisdictio n 5 t o chang e regulation s an dw e aren' t goin g t o 6 conside r those . S o that' s somethin g that' s 7 jus t clutterin g myfiles . 8 The nyo u file da counte r complaint . 9 W e don' t hav e anyjurisdictio nt o conside r 1 0 complaint s file dbyyou . An dthat' s no t th e 1 1 issu e i nthi s proceeding . Th e issu e i nthi s 1 2 proceedin g i s th e on e I hav e jus t identified , 1 3 whethe r yo u violate dth e regulation s i n 1 4 questio nand , i f so , wha t th e leve l o f civi l 1 5 penalt yshoul dbe . I f yo u ca nkee p you r min d 1 6 focuse do nthos e tw o thing s you'l l com e a lo t 1 7 close r t o gettin g somethin g cleare du p i nthi s 1 8 case . 1 9 No wyo u ha dsomethin g yo u wante dt o 2 0 sa yabou t som e o f thos e motions . 2 1 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . I t 2 2 ha s t o d o wit hth e regulation s i nthemselve s

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1 tha t a t n o poin t ar e th e Appendice s I an dJ 2 reference di neithe r th e o p spec s o r th e 3 complianc e statement . An dfurthermor e th e 4 mos t use dan dmos t standar dreference d- - th e 5 FF A- - als o doe s no t contai nth e I & J 6 reference s o r anyo f th e 12 1 regulations . M y 7 o p spec s - - 8 JUDG E YODER : I'v e go t thos e 9 appendice s here , Dr . Selig . I don' t kno w 1 0 wher e the ycam e from . 1 1 DR . SELIG : Yes . The yar e - - 1 2 someplac e whic hi s no t reference di nth e o p 1 3 spec s o r th e complianc e statement . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : I t woul db e i nth e 1 5 regulations . 1 6 DR . SELIG : That' s th e problem . I t 1 7 doesn' t sa ywher e the yare , ho wt o locat e the m 1 8 i nth e o p spec s an dth e complianc e statement . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , on e o f th e 2 0 thing s you'r e goin g t o lear nfro m thi s cas e i s 2 1 bein g a docto r doesn' t mak e yo u a lawyer . An d 2 2 on e o f th e problem s wit hno t bein g a lawye r i s

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1 yo u don' t kno weverythin g yo u nee dt o kno wi n 2 orde r t o procee di na cas e lik e this . 3 Yo u kee p wantin g t o argu e abou t 4 thing s tha t I've tol dyo u ar e no t th e issue . 5 D o yo u hav e anythin g els e yo u wan t t o tal k 6 abou t wit hrespec t t o thes e motions ? 7 DR . SELIG : Let' s see . 8 JUDG E YODER : I ' v e go t on e mor e 9 tha t I'l l mentio nwhil e you'r e thinkin g abou t 1 0 that . Dr . Selig . Ther e i s a reques t i nth e 1 1 filing s fo r a nunredacte dcop yo f th e 1 2 investigator' s report . Ms . Ponto , what' s th e 1 3 stor yo nthat ? 1 4 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , a t th e tim e 1 5 tha t w e provide dth e EI Rw e sen t a lette r t o 1 6 Dr . Seli g indicatin g tha t th e EI Rha dbee n 1 7 redacte dt o remov e privileged , pre-decisional , 1 8 deliberative , appropriatel ywithhel dmaterial s 1 9 a s i s standar dfro mth e inspector' s report . 2 0 Tha t wa s th e onl ythin g tha t was . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Okay . D o yo u hav e a 2 2 proble mno wwit hprovidin g hi m a complet e cop y


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1 o f that ? 2 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . W e 3 stil l maintai ntha t - - 4 JUDG E YODER : You'r e goin g t o hav e 5 t o fil e somethin g wit h- - 6 MS . PONTO : - - wer e redacte dwer e 7 appropriatel ywithheld . 8 JUDG E YODER : You'r e goin g t o hav e 9 a fil e somethin g wit hm e an ddemonstrat e tha t 1 0 th e thing s involve dar e appropriatel ywithhel d 1 1 o r yo u aren' t goin g t o b e abl e t o withhol d 1 2 them . I'l l tel l yo u tha t righ t now . 1 3 MS . PONTO : Okay . Well , You r 1 4 Honor , w e hav e responde dt o hi s motio n 1 5 addressin g thi s issue . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : Ar e w e stil l talkin g 1 7 abou t th e sam e subject ? 1 8 MS , PONTO : Yes . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : File . 2 0 MS . DOMINIK : You r Honor , woul dyo u 2 1 lik e fo r u s t o submi t th e complet e fil e fo r 2 2 you r i ncamer a review ?

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1 JUDG E YODER : I wan t yo u t o fil e 2 wit hm e a documen t indicatin g th e basi s fo r 3 withholdin g tha t informatio nwit hprecedence . 4 MS . PONTO : Well , w e - - wha t w e 5 hav e alread yprovide dan dI believ e i s alread y 6 i nth e recor d- - 7 JUDG E YODER : Ms . Ponto , I' mno t 8 askin g what' s i nth e record . I' m tellin g yo u 9 wha t you'r e goin g t o hav e t o d o t o kee p fro m 1 0 providin g thi s document . 1 1 MS . PONTO : Okay , You r Honor . 1 2 MS . DOMINIK : Okay . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Yes . Than k you . Al l 1 4 right . 1 5 DR . SELIG : Judg e - - 1 6 JUDG E YODER : I s ther e anythin g 1 7 else . Dr . Selig ? 1 8 DR . SELIG : Yes . I nreferenc e t o 1 9 tha t particula r spoliatio no f documents , I di d 2 0 reques t specifi c reference s i nth e metho di n 2 1 whic hthe ydi dredac t an dspoliat e thos e 2 2 documents . An dthe yrefuse dt o provid e m e i n

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1 th e typica l manne r i nwhic hthe y- - 2 JUDG E YODER : Di dyo u hea r wha t I 3 jus t said , Dr . Selig ? 4 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 5 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e anythin g 6 furthe r wit hrespec t t o anyo f thes e motions ? 7 DR . SELIG : Of f th e to p o f m yhea d 8 I - - 9 JUDG E YODER : Thi s i s no t you r las t 1 0 chance . Yo u ca nfil e somethin g furthe r i f yo u 1 1 ar e s o advised . I woul dcautio nyo u wit h 1 2 respec t t o furthe r filings . Becaus e frankl y 1 3 th e filing s tha t you'v e mad e t o dat e hav e no t 1 4 don e yo u muc hgoo dan drais e seriou s question s 1 5 no t abou t anybod yels e bu t abou t th e filings . 1 6 DR . SELIG : You r Honor , m yproble m 1 7 i s tha t I ' v e attempte dt o communicat e Ms . 1 8 Pont o an dsh e ha s refuse dt o addres s the m hea d 1 9 on . She' s side-steppe dman yissues , 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Bu t you'r e filin g 2 1 motion s wit hme , Dr . Selig , an dyou'r e filin g 2 2 th e sam e motio nove r an dove r an dove r an d

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1 over . I don' t appreciat e that . D o yo u 2 understan dwha t I' msaying ? 3 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 4 JUDG E YODER : I hop e you'r e hearin g 5 me . 6 DR . SELIG : Yes , I understand . You r 7 Honor . 8 JUDG E YODER : I don' t wan t t o se e 9 a repetitio no f that . I f yo u hav e somethin g 1 0 tha t ha s t o b e filed , the nyo u fil e i t jus t 1 1 lik e anybod yels e would . Bu t i f yo u kee p 1 2 f i 1 in g thing s i nth e wa yyou ' v e bee nf i 1 in g 1 3 the m

an dI don' t thin k it' s goin g t o benefi t 1 4 you . D o yo u understan dwha t I' msaying ? 1 5 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : Good . Okay . I thin k 1 7 tha t - - No wI thin k I've hear dyo u sa ytha t 1 8 yo u inten da t som e poin t t o continu e doin g o r 1 9 t o resum e 13 5 operations . I s tha t correct ? 2 0 DR . SELIG : Yes . That' s right . 2 1 It' s par t o f myprocess , yes . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : No wi s - - Ms . Ponto , 

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1 i s th e outcom e o f thi s cas e goin g t o impac t 2 hi s abilit yt o d o Par t 13 5 operations ? 3 MS . PONTO : I f there' s a findin g o f 4 violatio ntha t woul db e o nth e record . Bu t 5 tha t wouldn' t impac t hi s abilit yt o operate . 6 JUDG E YODER : H e coul dstil l d o 7 Par t 1 3 5 operation s despit e th e findin g o f 8 violations . 9 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Yes . Okay . An dbase d 1 1 o nwha t yo u sai dthen , Dr . Selig , I gathe r 1 2 tha t t o surrende r you r certificat e i s no t on e 1 3 o f th e possible s a s a vehicl e fo r settlin g 1 4 thi s proceeding . 1 5 DR . SELIG : I' mno t sur e a t thi s 1 6 point . I jus t can' t b e unde r thi s kin do f 1 7 harassment . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Right . Okay . Le t m e 1 9 tel l yo u wher e we'r e goin g fro mhere . Wha t I 2 0 wan t i s fo r yo u t o provid e th e financia l dat e 2 1 tha t we'v e talke dabout . An dthe nI wan t yo u 2 2 t o tal k wit hMs . Pont o o r Ms . Domini k o r

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### 7 5

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### 1 whomeve r i s representing themi nconnectio n

2 wit hthos e discussion s andse e i f yo u can' t 3 ge t some resolutio no f thi s case . 4 Frankly , thi s i s a cas e tha t ough t 5 t o b e settled . Andi f i t isn' t settled , then , 6 Ms . Ponto , I hop e you'v e bee nkeeping a recor d 7 o f th e thing s yo u nee dt o brie f becaus e thos e 8 ar e going t o b e briefe dwithi na perio do f 9 time tha t yo u choos e afte r yo u advis e m e tha t 1 0 th e cas e isn' t settling . D o yo u understand 1 1 wha t I' msaying ? 1 2 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 1 3 JUDGE YODER : Okay . S o we'r e going 1 4 t o hav e a dat e fo r hi m t o provid e yo u wit h 1 5 financia l data . The nwe'r e going t o hav e a 1 6 dat e fo r yo u t o le t m e kno wwhethe r th e cas e 1 7 canb e settled . 1 8 AndI woul dtrus t tha t i nreviewin g 1 9 tha t yo u woul dfocu s o nin-house , a t least , o n 2 0 the lega l issue s tha t hav e bee nraise di nth e 2 1 cours e o f thi s pre-hearing conference . Tha t 2 2 i s th e impac t o f Appendi xJ withou t a

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1 moonligh t amendment , th e presenc e o f th e Judg e 2 Kolk o decisio no nth e questio no f whethe r thi s 3 i s a requiremen t apar t fro msomeon e doin g 4 operation s an dwhethe r tha t cas e reache s th e 5 poin t tha t we'v e go t here . Th e concer ni s 6 tha t tha t cas e discusse dth e inten t o f th e 7 regulatio nan dwhethe r it s inten t wa s t o 8 impac t operation s a s distinc t fro mcompanie s 9 tha t aren' t doin g operations . S o yo u shoul d 1 0 kee p tha t i nmin dan dreflectin g o ntha t an d 1 1 tha t shoul db e i nyou r brief . 1 2 The nyo u shoul dals o addres s th e 1 3 questio no f pursuin g a ful l penalt yagains t H 1 4 & RHelicopter s give nwhateve r th e financia l 1 5 statu s o f i t i s show nt o b e byth e document s 1 6 tha t you'r e goin g t o receive . Okay . 1 7 An dwhil e the yar e doin g thos e 1 8 briefs . Dr . Selig , yo u ca nreflec t o nwhethe r 1 9 there' s an yfurthe r motion s tha t yo u fee l yo u 2 0 hav e t o file . Bu t I woul dreall ycautio nyo u 2 1 agains t filin g motion s tha t ar e no t 2 2 specificall yrelate dt o th e issue s a s we'v e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 describe dthe mtoday . D o yo u understan dwha t

I' msaying ?

DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Tha t wil l le t yo u ge t bac k t o you r practic e instea do f preparin g volume s o f pleadings ,

DR . SELIG : Tha t woul db e a pleasure . JUDG E YODER : Bu t meanwhil e wha t yo u nee dt o d o i s yo u nee dt o provid e thos e financia l statements . No wwhe nar e yo u goin g t o b e abl e t o d o that ?

DR . SELIG : I nte nminutes . {Laughter. ) JUDG E YODER : I though t yo u didn' t kno wwhethe r yo u ha dan ybeyon dth e Schedul e Cs . DR . SELIG : I'l l jus t sen dyo u whateve r I hav e I guess .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Al l right . S o that' s fo r thre e year s an dyou'l l sen dthos e righ t awa yt o Ms . Pont o an dt o me . An dd o yo u

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2 DR . SELIG : I do . 3 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 4 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , I woul d 5 hav e t o inter j ec t thoug han dpoin t ou t tha t 6 dependin g o nwha t w e ge t fo r financia l 7 informatio nth e Agenc yneed s enoug h 8 informatio nt o actuall yb e abl e t o perfor ma 9 meaningfu l analysi s o f th e company ' s financia l 1 0 state . An dthat' s wh yw e generall ynee d- - 1 1 JUDG E YODER : I f yo u don' t hav e 1 2 enoug ht o d o a meaningfu l analysis , Ms . Ponto , 1 3 yo u le t m e know . 1 4 MS . PONTO : Than k you , You r Honor . 1 5 JUDG E YODER : I na motio nfo r 1 6 whateve r i t i s yo u thin k yo u need . 1 7 MS , PONTO : Okay . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : An dI don' t kno wwha t 1 9 that' s goin g t o be . Wha t d o yo u thin k it' s 2 0 goin g t o b e beyon dSchedul e C ? Wha t d o yo u 2 1 nee dbeside s Schedul e C ? Thi s i s a - - 2 2 MS . PONTO : Generally , w e nee dth e


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1 ful l schedules . It' s myunderstandin g and , o f 2 course , I' mno t a neconomist . W e generall y 3 as k someon e appropriatel yeducate dt o perfor m 4 thi s kin do f analysi s t o loo k a t it . It' s my 5 understandin g tha t Schedule s L an dMar e 6 particularl yimportan t becaus e w e loo k a t th e 7 assets , liabilities , debt s o f th e company . S o 8 the yperfor m a complet e analysis . Bu t w e nee d 9 th e ful l schedules . 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , ar e thes e 1 1 filing s prepare dfo r yo u bya naccountant ? 1 2 DR . SELIG : Yes , the yare . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Okay . The nyo u 1 4 shoul dhav e whatever . S o yo u wil l hav e th e 1 5 complet e filing s tha t yo u mad e i neac ho f 1 6 thos e years . 1 7 DR . SELIG : That' s correct . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o yo u ca n 1 9 provid e those . 2 0 DR . SELIG : Yes . 2 1 JUDG EYODER : A s yo usai di nte n 2 2minutes
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1 DR . SELIG : (Laughter. ) 2 JUDG E YODER : Well , i nan yevent , 3 w e wil l assum e tha t thos e wil l b e provide db y 4 CO B nex t wee k som e time ? 5 DR . SELIG : Yes , sir , 6 JUDG E YODER : Let' s see . Twenty
7 six , 27 , 28 , 29t hwoul db e Tuesday . B yCO B 8 Tuesday ? I mea ni f yo u hav e the mbefor e then , 9 that' s fine. Bu t I wan t t o mak e sur e there' s 1 0 a specifi c dat e bywhic hthe ywil l b e 1 1 provided , 1 2 DR . SELIG : Yeah . I' m prett ysur e 1 3 I hav e the mal l her e i nm yhom e office . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : Okay . W e wil l fi x 1 5 Marc h2 9 a s th e dat e b ywhic hthos e wil l b e 1 6 faxe dt o Ms . Pont o an dt o me . Al l right ? 1 7 DR . SELIG : Yes , sir . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Okay . The nI wan t 1 9 yo u folk s t o tal k abou t settlin g thi s an dyo u 2 0 folk s ca nsettl e i t o nan ybasi s tha t yo u 2 1 choose . Tha t ca ninvolv e futur e operation s o r 2 2 i t canno t involv e futur e operations . I t ca n


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1 involv e th e paymen t o f a penalt yo r i t canno t 2 involv e th e paymen t o f a penalty . That' s u p 3 t o yo u folks . 4 An dI woul dencourag e yo u t o b e 5 insightfu l i ntryin g t o reac hsom e sensibl e 6 conclusio no f wha t frankl yi s on e o f th e leas t 7 sensibl e case s I ' v e see ni n3 5 year s a s a 8 judge , 9 DR . SELIG : You r Honor , i f I ma y 1 0 jus t inject . I mea nI hav e som e prett y 1 1 unusua l an dsignifican t skil l set s tha t I ca n 1 2 provid e t o th e public . 1 3 JUDG E YODER : Well , I' mno t goin g 1 4 t o g o there . S o don' t tal k - - Yo u don' t wan t 1 5 t o ope nu p a whol e ne wba g o f tricks , Dr , 1 6 Selig . We'v e go t enoug hproblem s o nth e tabl e 1 7 a s i t is . Al l right . 1 8 DR . SELIG : I understand . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . S o that' s 2 0 goin g t o b e her e b yCO B Tuesday . 2 1 Whe nwil l I hea r bac k fro myou , Ms . 2 2 Ponto , o nwhethe r thi s cas e i s goin g t o b e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 settled ? MS . PONTO : Well , You r Honor , a s

soo na s w e receiv e th e financia l documents , we'l l perfor m

th e analysis . I woul dassum e - - (Of f th e recor dcomment. ) Yeah , w e woul dwan t t o giv e ou r analys t a wee k t o revie wth e document s an d the nallo wth e partie s a wee k t o discus s settlement . JUDG E YODER : Okay . Tw o week s fro m Marc h29th ?

MS . DOMINIK : HO Wmany ? Tw o o r three . You r Honor ?

JUDG E YODER : Well , I' maskin g yo u folks . I' mno t tryin g t o pus hyo u int o anything . I' mjus t tryin g t o ge t a date .

MS . DOMINIK : Le t u s loo k a t a calenda r rea l quick . You r Honor .

JUDG E YODER : Wei1 , thre e week s woul db e - - MS . PONTO : Apri l 19th .

JUDG E YODER : Apri l 19th .

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1 MS . DOMINIK : Okay . 2 MS . PONTO : Right . I thin k that' s 3 a goo ddate . 4 JUDG E YODER : An dI wan t yo u folk s 5 t o understan dtha t al l o f thes e date s ar e 6 delivere di nmyhands . 7 MS . PONTO : Okay . 8 MS . DOMINIK : Yes , sir . 9 JUDG E YODER : T o b e provide dt o me . 1 0 Contrar yt o th e norma l rul e wit hrespec t t o 1 1 filing , it' s i nmyhand s whe nit ' s i nmy 1 2 hands . And , Dr . Selig , fo r you r information , 1 3 w e don' t sen danythin g byregula r mail . 1 4 Anythin g yo u sen db yregula r mai l goe s t o Wes t 1 5 Virgini a o r Ne wJerse yan dget s irradiate dan d 1 6 the ncome s bac k t o u s an dw e hav e t o pee l th e 1 7 page s apart . 1 8 DR . SELIG : Oh . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Neve r sen danythin g 2 0 byregula r mail . Okay ? 2 1 DR . SELIG : Oh , okay . 2 2 JUDG E YODER : Bu t i nthi s


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1 particula r cas e yo u can' t sen di t b yanything . 2 It' s no t goin g t o ge t thing s t o m e o nth e dat e 3 tha t they'r e required . Al l right . 4 DR . SELIG : Yes . 5 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . S o the n 6 th e nex t thin g i s i f yo u tel l m e o nApri l 1 9 7 tha t thi s cas e i s no t settlin g the nyo u nee d 8 t o provid e m e wit hth e brie f addressin g th e 9 point s tha t w e hav e discussed , Ms . Ponto . Yo u 1 0 wil l recal l wha t the yare . 1 1 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : The yar e i nth e 1 3 transcrip t an dthe yinclud e th e applicabilit y 1 4 o f moonlightin g t o thi s situatio nan dth e 1 5 amendment s t o Appendi xI withou t a namendmen t 1 6 t o Appendi xJ an dth e applicabilit yo f th e 1 7 Everso ncas e an dth e calculatio no f th e civi l 1 8 penalt yan dth e viabilit yo f proceedin g fo r 1 9 civi l penalt ygive nth e financia l statement s 2 0 o f thi s company . Oh , an dyo u als o nee dt o 2 1 provid e m e wit htha t unredacte dcop yo f th e 2 2 investigator' s repor t o r includ e i nyou r brie f

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1 you r positio nwit hrespec t t o providin g i t 2 alon g wit hprecedenc e fo r no t providin g it . 3 I don' t kno wi f you'v e ha dcase s wit hm e 4 befor e o r not , Ms . Ponto * 5 MS . PONTO : I haven' t personally . 6 No . 7 JUDG E YODER : I ngeneral , yo u wil l 8 fin dtha t w e tr yt o ru ntransparen t 9 proceedings . W e don' t g o t o hearing s unti l w e 1 0 kno wwha t i s actuall ya t issue . An dw e tr y 1 1 no t t o dea l wit hthing s tha t aren' t issues . 1 2 W e tr yt o dea l wit hthing s tha t ar e issue s 1 3 openl yan dthat' s wha t w e aime dt o d o i nthi s 1 4 case . Okay ? 1 5 S o that' s wha t yo u nee dt o d o an d 1 6 th e questio ni s b ywhe nwil l yo u d o that . I 1 7 mea nw e hav e yo u u p t o Apri l 19 . An dno wth e 1 8 questio ni s whe nd o I ge t mypaper s i f yo u 1 9 don' t ge t thi s thin g settled . 2 0 DR . SELIG : You r Honor . 2 1 JUDG E YODER : Yes , sir . 2 2 DR . SELIG : I ha dsom e issue s abou t



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1 th e actua l statut e o f limitations . 2 JUDG E YODER : Forge t it . 3 DR . SELIG : Becaus e - - Al l right . 4 Becaus e i t state s reall ytha t the y- - 5 JUDG E YODER : Yo u ha da referenc e 6 t o a on e yea r statute . Ther e isn' t a on e yea r 7 statute . 8 DR . SELIG : Well , tw o years . The y 9 clai mtha t i non e - - 1 0 JUDG E YODER : Tha t i s a nissu e 1 1 abou t th e timin g o f th e service . 1 2 DR . SELIG : Well , no . I aske dthe m 1 3 t o giv e m e a postmar k fo r whe nthe yactuall y 1 4 file d- - whe nthe yactuall ypu t th e postmar k 1 5 o ntha t (Phon e beeps ) th e tw o yea r period . 1 6 They'r e claimin g it' s on e day . They'r e 1 7 claimin g documentatio ntha t wa s on e da ybefor e 1 8 th e statut e o f limitations , a tw o yea r statut e 1 9 o f limitations . I' mclaimin g - - 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Di dyo u ge t a servic e 2 1 list ? Di dyo u ge t a certificat e o f service ? 2 2 DR . SELIG : I' mno t sur e i f I go t

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2 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e a 3 certificat e o f servic e o nth e complaint , Ms . 4 Ponto ? 5 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , th e notic e 6 o f propose dcivi l penalt yi s wha t he' s 7 referrin g t o an dtha t doesn' t hav e a forma l 8 certificat e o f service . 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . An dtha t i s - - 1 0 S o ho wd o yo u comput e th e date ? Th e dat e o f 1 1 th e notice ? 1 2 MS . PONTO : Yes , it' s th e dat e o f 1 3 th e notice . 1 4 JUDG E YODER : An dthat' s th e dat e 1 5 it' s mailed . 1 6 MS . PONTO : Exactly . 1 7 DR . SELIG : That' s th e problem . 1 8 Thos e date s o f mailin g the yhav e differen t 1 9 draf t date s o nthos e document s an dthe ysi t 2 0 aroun dfo r sometime s thre e t o fiv e days . S o 2 1 that' s wh yI wante dthe m t o produc e th e actua l 2 2 postmar k dat e becaus e I go t tha t penalty .

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1 JUDG E YODER : D o yo u hav e a 2 postmar k date , Ms . Ponto ? 3 MS . PONTO : You r Honor , th e draf t 4 date s he' s agai nreferrin g t o I believ e i s hi s 5 misunderstandin g a s t o th e servic e date . 6 That' s th e dat e w e pu t i t i nth e mail . It' s 7 no t a draf t date . Tha t i s th e dat e o f 8 service . 9 JUDG E YODER : I understand . 1 0 MS . PONTO : Thre e t o fiv e day s 1 1 late r i s whe nh e receive s it . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : I understan dthat , 1 3 bu t he' s sayin g tha t there' s - - Th e postmark , 1 4 i s ther e a postmark ? 1 5 MS . PONTO : I' mlookin g t o se e i f 1 6 w e hav e it . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : I f yo u hav e it , giv e 1 8 i t t o him . I f yo u don' t hav e it , yo u don' t 1 9 hav e it . 2 0 Anythin g else , Dr . Selig ? 2 1 DR . SELIG : I' msayin g i f the y 2 2 don' t hav e it , the nth e cas e passe dth e


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1 statut e o f limitations . 2 JUDG E YODER : Oh , i t isn't , Dr . 3 Selig . I t ha s a presumptio no f regulatory . 4 I f i t purport s t o hav e bee nserve do ntha t 5 date , we'r e goin g t o assum e it ' s serve do n 6 tha t dat e unles s there' s somethin g tha t say s 7 somethin g else . 8 Dr . Selig , I reall yencourag e yo u 9 t o focu s o nwha t I hav e tol dyo u ar e th e 1 0 issue s i nthi s cas e an dsto p lookin g fo r Perr y 1 1 Maso nsolutions . D o yo u understan dwha t I' m 1 2 saying ? 1 3 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . It' s 1 4 jus t I've gotte nhi t wit hthes e date s wit ha 1 5 notic e fro mth e Unite dState s Suprem e Cour t a t 1 6 thi s point . 1 7 JUDG E YODER : Dr . Selig , I hav e 1 8 see nwha t yo u hav e bee nhi t wit han dyo u hav e 1 9 papere dthi s recor di na wa ytha t I hav e neve r 2 0 see nbefore . Ever . An dI'v e bee ndoin g thi s 2 1 a s lon g a s you'v e bee na docto r an dthe nsome . 2 2 DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor .

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• 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E YODER : I Woul dencourag e yo u

t o focu s o nwha t th e rea l issue s ar e an d compl ywit hth e direction s i nthi s pre-hearin g conferenc e an dthe ntr yt o ge t thi s cas e settled . I don' t kno wwh o wil l tr ythi s cas e i f i t wind s u p goin g t o hearing . The ymigh t
no t b e a s nic e a s I am . Wh o knows . D o yo u understan dwha t I' msaying ?

DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . JUDG E YODER : Wha t I nee dyo u t o d o i s focu s o nth e rea l issues . That' s wha t I've bee ntryin g t o ge t al l o f yo u t o d o al l day . Okay ? DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor .

JUDG E YODER : Okay . Ms . Ponto , yo u understan dmy direction . MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . I jus t hav e a fe wremainin g questions .

JUDG E YODER : Oh , I ' mdealin g wit h thi s on e first . I f yo u hav e a postmark , yo u wil l provid e i t t o m e an dDr . Selig .

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1 MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . 2 JUDG E YODER : Al l right . Wha t d o 3 yo u hav e left ? 4 MS . PONTO : You'v e indicate dtha t - 5 6 JUDG E YODER : I nee da date . 7 MS . PONTO : Oh , I' msorry . 8 JUDG E YODER : Adat e afte r 4/1 9 9 whe nyou'r e goin g t o brie f al l o f thes e 1 0 things . 1 1 MS . PONTO : I s Ma y27t hacceptable ? 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Yes . Ma y2 7th . 1 3 Okay . Al l o f tha t wil l b e don e i nhan do nMa y 1 4 27th , 1 5 An dthen , Dr . Selig , I don' t kno w 1 6 whethe r you'l l wan t t o respon dt o tha t o r not . 1 7 Bu t i f yo u do , ho wmuc htim e woul dyo u want ? 1 8 DR . SELIG : I' dprobabl ynee dtw o 1 9 t o thre e week s dependin g o nmyschedule . 2 0 JUDG E YODER : Well , we'l l mak e i t 2 1 thre e weeks . That' s 2 1 day s afte r Ma y2 7 2 2 whic hshoul db e Jun e 18 . I s tha t right ? S o


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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 that' s you r repl ydate . An di f yo u hav e

anythin g tha t yo u wan t t o fil e a s a motio ni t woul dcom e i no nMa y2 7 an dthei r respons e woul db e du e Jun e 18 .

DR . SELIG : Okay . JUDG E YODER : Meanwhile , I don' t
wan t t o se e pape r o nthi s case . I' mno t tellin g yo u yo u can' t fil e things . Bu t I d o no t wan t a repea t o f wha t I've see nhappenin g sinc e thi s cas e started .

DR . SELIG : Yes , You r Honor . JUDG E YODER : Al l right . No wyo u ha dsomethin g else , Ms . Ponto ? MS . PONTO : Yes , You r Honor . You'v e indicate di f I understan dcorrectl y tha t yo u ar e prepare dt o rul e o nth e outstandin g motion s afte r thi s call .

JUDG E YODER : I sai dtha t they , excep t a s indicate di nthi s call , wil l b e treate da s denied .

MS . PONTO : Okay . Ther e wer e tw o

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1 motion s thi s wee k tha t wer e file dtha t w e hav e 2 no t ye t responde dto . 3 JUDG E YODER : The yar e denied . 4 MS . PONTO : Okay . Than k you . 5 JUDG E YODER : Al l motion s 6 heretofor e ar e treate da s denie dexcep t fo r 7 th e on e wit hrespec t t o th e providin g o f th e 8 investigator' s repor t an dyo u kno who wwe'r e 9 suppose dt o dea l wit hthat . An di f an yo f 1 0 thos e motion s nee dt o b e renewed , I woul dd o 1 1 tha t wit hgrea t car e an dthos e woul db e du e o n 1 2 Ma y27 . 1 3 Okay . Anythin g els e yo u had , Ms . 1 4 Ponto ? 1 5 MS . PONTO : No , You r Honor . 1 6 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 1 7 Anythin g else , Dr . Selig ? 1 8 DR . SELIG : No t a t th e moment . 1 9 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Yo u folk s ge t 2 0 thi s cas e worke dou t an dwe'l l hav e thos e 2 1 financia l thing s byMarc h2 9 an dyo u wil l the n 2 2 ge t bac k t o m e byApri l 1 9 an dle t m e kno w

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1 wha t you'v e accomplished . An dMs . Pont o wil l 2 d o that , Dr . Selig . There' s n o reaso nyo u 3 can't . Bu t generall yComplainant' s counse l 4 call s o r send s m e a notic e wit ha cop yt o yo u 5 indicatin g wha t th e result s o f thos e 6 settlemen t effort s hav e been . Okay ? 7 DR . SELIG : Yes . 8 JUDG E YODER : Okay . I f there' s 9 nothin g tha t conclude s th e pre-hearin g 1 0 conference . Than k yo u fo r you r - - 1 1 MS . PONTO : You r Honor . 1 2 JUDG E YODER : Yes . 1 3 MS . PONTO : I' mver ysorr yt o 1 4 interrupt . Bu t befor e w e ge t of f thi s cal l 1 5 becaus e w e wil l wan t t o engag e i nsettlemen t 1 6 discussion s an di nth e pas t I've ha dtroubl e 1 7 reachin g Dr . Seli g b yphone , I' m wonderin g i f 1 8 there' s anothe r way , Dr , Selig , I coul dreac h 1 9 yo u t o furthe r ou r settlemen t discussion s i f 2 0 there' s a nemai l addres s o r som e for mtha t I 2 1 coul dcommunicat e wit hyo u onc e we'v e bee n 2 2 abl e t o analyz e th e informatio nan dw e ca n


### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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### 1 discus s settlement
. 2DR
. SELIG : Yes
. 3 Lifelinecard@rcn.com . 4 MS . PONTO : Okay . T o confir m 5 that'sLifelinecard@rcn.com , L-I-F-E-L-I-N-E
6 C-A-R-D@R-C-N.com ? 7 DR . SELIG : Correct . 8 JUDG E YODER : An dthat' s on e word , 9 Lifelinecard ? 1 0 DR . SELIG : Yes . 1 1 JUDG E YODER : Okay . 1 2 MS . PONTO : An dt o confir m yo u 1 3 coul dals o sen dm e a nemail . M yemai l addres s 1 4 laura , L-A-U-R-A , do t ponto , P-O-N-T-0 , 1 5 @FAA.gov . Okay . 1 6 DR . SELIG : Than k you . 1 7 MS . PONTO : Than k you . 1 8 JUDG E YODER : Okay . Anythin g 1 9 further , folks ? 2 0 (N o response. ) 2 1 I f not , tha t conclude s th e pre 2 2 hearin g conference . I' mgla dw e wer e finall y



### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 abl e t o ge t everybod ytogethe r an dhopefull y

tha t wil l simplif yan dexpedit e thi s proceeding . Tha t conclude s th e pre-hearin g conference . Than k yo u both . Of f th e record .

{Whereupon , a t 5:0 8 p.m. , th e above-reference dmatte r wa s concluded. )

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE.

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