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# &1 0 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION**~OFFICE** OF HEARINGS WASHINGTON, DC**~------------------------------~** 1

IN THE MATTER OF: 

# RECEIVE SKYWEST AIRLINES FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011 (FDMS No. FAA-2011-00485) 

### OCT2B

### 2012 

## HEARING DOCKE FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060010 (FDMS No. FAA-2011-0486) FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060033 (FDMS No. FAA-2011-0680/0779)**~------------------------------~** Tuesday October 2, 2012 Frank E. Moss Courthouse 350 South Main Street Salt Lake City, Utah 84101

The above-entitledmatter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, a 10:00 a.m.
BEFORE: Richard C. Goodwin Administrative Law Judge

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• 2 APPEARANCES: FOR THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: Jeffrey Harper OFFICE OF REGIONAL COUNSEL 1601 Lind Avenue Southwest Renton, Washington 98057-3356 Tel: 425.227.2161 Fax: 425.227.1007 jeffrey.harper@faa.gov FOR SKYWEST AIRLINES: Michael L. Dworkin John T. Van Geffen MICHAEL L. DWORKIN AND ASSOCIATES 465 California Street, Suite 210 San Francisco, California 94104 Tel: 415.421.2500 law@avialex.com johnvangeffen@avialex.com Todd C. Emerson SKYWEST AIRLINES GENERAL COUNSEL 444 South River Road St. George, Utah 84790 Tel: 435.634.3530 temerson@skywest.com

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• CONTENTS Opening Statement by Mr. Harper Opening Statement by Mr. Dworkin 17 83 3

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS JAMES MCKENNA 26 33 39 YVONNE HUYMH 41 50 WENDELL GEHRING 62 72 CARL SALAMONE 86 127 JEREMY BARCLAY 129 132 AARON WILLIAMS 163 MAGGI AIKEN 168

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• E X H I B I T S COMPLAINANT'S EXHIBITS C-1 C-2 C-3 C-102 C-103 Baggage Photo, Delta Flight 4451 (0001-2) Baggage Photo, Delta Flight 4659 (0003-4) Baggage Photo, Delta Flight 4659 (0005-6) SkyWest Customer Service Procedures Operation Specifications A098 32 68 69 70 71 RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS R-3 R-4 R-5 R-6

R-15 SkyWest Weight and Balance Analysis 9/24/12 Revision 2 107 SkyWest Weight and Balance Program Amendment Proposal 3/2/2011 . 122 3/4/10 SkyWest Letter to FAA Regarding 14 CFR 121.693 125 5/17/01 Ayers Letter Regarding Proposal for an Amendment to SkyWest's Approved Weight and Balance Program 127 12/21/10 SkyWest Letter Responding Investigation of Flight 6573 174

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• 5 1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 (10:00 a.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go on the 4 record. This 1s the consolidated case of 5 SkyWest Airlines FDMS Docket No. 6 FAA-2011-0485, FAA-2011-486, and two cases 7 which originate with the same FAA docket 8 number which were individually docketed as 9 FAA-2011-680 and later as FAA Docket No. 10 2011-0779. 11 Counsel, will you identify 12 yourself for the record, please? 13 MR. HARPER: For the FAA, Jeffrey 14 Harper. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent? 16 MR. DWORKIN: For SkyWest, Michael 17 L. Dworkin, San Francisco; John T. Van Geffen, 18 San Francisco; Todd Emerson, General Counsel 19 SkyWest Airlines. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I would note 21 for the record, Mr. Dworkin, you live in San 22 Francisco, I live in Fresno. We have to come NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 6 1 to Salt Lake to see each other. 2 I have a preliminary matter which 3 I set forth 1n the hearing notice, and I've 4 given everybody a chronology of events. What 5 disturbs me about the two cases 680 and 779 6 and let me say first off, Mr. Harper, I don't 7 attribute anything to the FAA or anything 8 else. You didn't do anything wrong. 9 What I'm concerned about is what 10 happened when the case got to our office. As 11 I set forth in the chronology of events, and 12 I'm talking now just about 2011-680 and 779. 13 I've given each Counsel a chronology of 14 events. 15 But 1n short, the FAA docketed a 16 case which is 2011 NM for Northwest Mountain 17 060033. The case was originally sent to our 18 office August 29th of 2011, and it was 19 designated as 2011-779. The case was, quote, 20 assigned to me, and I use that term loosely, 21 by a Notice of Assignment issued by the chief 22 judge.
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• 7 1 Then on October 5th, through no 2 error on the part of the FAA the same docket 3 number ended up at DMS, was given a subsequent 4 docket number of 680, and Judge Yoder

-- and 5 I've attached to the chronology the pleading 6 that he issued on October 4th. 7 What's what I've been 8 struggling with since I discovered this error 9 is a number of issues. First of all, 1s there 10 any regulatory authority precluding or 11 requiring a Notice of Assignment before a case 12 is assigned to a judge? The only thing I can 13 find, to be honest, is a reference in the job 14 description of the gener1c OPM job 15 description of chief judge which says the 16 chief judge shall assign cases. I can't find 17 any regulatory authority beyond that. 18 And the reason that's important 1n 19 my opinion 1s there was a, quote, Notice of 20 Assignment assigning me the case in August, 21 and Judge Yoder issued a pleading captioned 22 "Notice of Assignment of Proceeding" and then
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• 8 1 closure of the FDMS docket. Well, the problem 2 lS the language of his order of October 4th 3 doesn't assign anything to anybody, not inthe 4 context of the language. And he then proceeds 5 to close the docket. 6 I can't tell you how many times 7 I've read this, and I can't figure out whether 8 he's closed 680, 779 or the FAA docket or one 9 or more combinations or the entire docket. So 10 what I've asked Counsel to do

-- and I don't 11 want you to argue it today

-- is brief the 12 1ssues 1n the case, the procedural issues. 13 And as a part of that I'd like to 14 know whether there's any regulatory authority 15 either requiring a Notice of Assignment or 16 allowing a Notice of Assignment, for that 17 matter, because that becomes the basis of what 18 Judge Yoder has done in his October 4th order 19 of 2011 where he sua sponte issues a pleading 20 closing a docket. And my question to both 21 Counsel lS: What does a closure mean and has 22 he in effect dismissed the entire docket? I
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• 9 1 discovered the error more than 30 days after 2 as a matter of fact, I think it was 3 sometime late November, early October 4 [verbatim] 5 So if his order dismisses the 6 case, you know, I told Mr. Emerson the other 7 day if I were the Respondent, I would argue 8 res judicata that the case has been dismissed. 9 And if I were the FAA, I would argue that NOA 10 as an administrative pleading have absolutely 11 no authority, there's no regulatory basis for 12 it, and that the pleading is essentially

-- I 13 can't think of the right word, but, you know, 14 is meaningless. 15 Anyway, I'd like you to brief that 16 in those two cases. One other thing I'd like 17 you to do

-- because this is a consolidated 18 case, what I'd like you to do 1s make sure 19 that when we present the testimony and we 20 present the evidence that represent it in such 21 a way that

-- I expect to see finite issues in 22 each of the three cases. I will probably
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• 10 1 

### write a consolidated opinion incorporating in 2 that opinion the three different cases which 3 then gives you the opportunity to appeal a 4 portion of my decision or none of my decision, 5 you know, however you want to do it. 6 So I want -- what I'm trying to do 7 1s protect the record. I can deal with it as 8 long as we make sure that when we present 9 

### evidence and testimony we're referring to 485 10 

### or 486 

### or 680. 

### If it's all three, say that. 11 

### If it's two out of three, say that so that 12 

### when we write the opinion

-- normally what I 13 

### do with consolidated cases, I'll give a 14 

### factual background. In this case we'll give 15 

### a procedural background of the two cases I 16 

### just talked about, and then I'll break the 17 

### decision out. 18 

### I'll probably write something with 19 

### respect to 485, 

### something with respect to 486, 

### 20 and then something with respect to 779 and 21 680. 

### So just keep that in mind as we go 22 through this. Last thing you want to do 1s
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• 11 1 confuse me so then in December I'm trying to 2 figure out, now, what is this. 3 Mr. Dworkin, as I said in Mr. 4 Emerson's other case, the transcript will 5 probably be available in two to four weeks at 6 FAA headquarters. When it gets to Mr. Harper 7 is anyone's guess. 8 Mr. Harper, when you get the 9 transcript, I'm going to ask you to call Mr. 10 Emerson and call Mr. Dworkin, let them know 11 you have the transcript. 12 Mr. Dworkin, you've done enough of 13 these. You know how to get a hold of a copy of 14 the transcript. Then I want -- Mr. Dworkin, 15 I take it you're going to be lead counsel? 16 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, you 18 and Mr. Dworkin work out some sort of a 19 briefing schedule. As I said the last two 20 days, the holidays are coming up, you both 21 have busy trial schedules. Get me a briefing 22 schedule that will work for you. If you run NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 12 1 into any bumps in the road and need to modify 2 it, you know, shoot me an amendment. If you 3 can't agree, I'll issue something. 4 But once you agree on an initial 5 briefing schedule, just throw it together, 6 send it to Mr. Liebowitz. I'll s1gn it and 7 get it back to you. I want to make sure you 8 have adequate opportunity to brief all the 9 issues 1n all the cases, especially 680 and 10 779 because frankly I'm concerned about what 11 happened there and what

-- you know, what the 12 potential impact is either way. 13 Are there any preliminary matters 14 for either one of you? 15 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor, not 16 to complicate 680 and 779 more. I discovered 17 yesterday that there was a typographical error 18 1n the Complaint. I'd like to move to amend 19 the Complaint to correct that error. 20 Specifically paragraph 10 alleges a date of 21 February 11th. That date should be February 22 15th.
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• 13 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection as 2 to correct that? 3 MR. DWORKIN: Which year? 4 MR. HARPER: The year was correct. 5 2011. 6 MR. DWORKIN: That was which case, 7 Counsel? 8 MR. HARPER: 680/799, 06033. 9 MR. DWORKIN: That is FAA Case No. 10 2011-NM-060033? 11 MR. HARPER: Yes. 12 MR. DWORKIN: We have too many 13 numbers here. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. That's

-- 15 my first question when I took this job is why 16 can't we use the same set of numbers. But if 17 you'll notice as it moves through the system, 18 it starts out with an FAA number and a DMS 19 number and then a -- there are always three 20 sets of numbers which drives me crazy. 21 MR. DWORKIN: We have no objection 22 to the amendment to the Complaint, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 14 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So just for 2 the record, the FAA has moved to amend in the 3 Complaint in 680/779 to change the date from 4 February 11th to February 15th inparagraph 5 MR. HARPER: Ten, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN:
-- ten. 7 Are these mics working? As I'm 8 thinking about it, I've got a hearing 9 disability. So if I ask you to speak up, 10 don't take it as a criticism. I legitimately 11 can't hear you, especially if you're soft. I 12 don't know how the acoustics are going to 13 work. My experience in courtrooms like this, 14 although they're lovely, the acoustics 15 sometimes don't work as well. 16 As I indicated in prior cases, if 17 the court reporter raises her hand, that's 18 your cue to spell whatever it is you just said 19 so that three days from now she's not beating 20 her head against the wall trying to figure out 21 what we're talking about. 22 I can't think of anything else.
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• 15 1 Mr. Harper, 1n looking at Exhibit 2 6 it looks like somebody may have put the 3 exhibit in backwards because you've got page 4 7-1 at the end and B-12 at the front. As you 5 know, the Court's going to take judicial 6 notice, so it's harmless. 7 MR. HARPER: That is backwards. I 8 apologize for that, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I was 10 looking for a three-hole punch, but I couldn't 11 find one. But, anyway, if that's the biggest 12 problem we have today, I think we're going to 13 live through it. 14 We're going to break about noon 15 for lunch. I have a conference call I've got 16 to take at 2:30 so we may take an extended 17 break at 2:30. I'm going to try to get off 18 the call as quick as possible. 19 As I indicated, at 4:30 wherever 20 we are we're going to stop testimony, so I'm 21 going to ask the two of you to keep an eye on 22 your witnesses, and if you get to a logical
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L_____ _________________________ ----- -

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• 16 1 breaking point between 4:00 and 4:30, I would 2 invite you to break at that point and we can 3 resume tomorrow. 4 I've got a courtroom through 5 Thursday, and I can get one Friday if we need 6 it. Just so you know, we're here today. 7 We're someplace else tomorrow. As I jokingly 8 said, it's a test to see whether we can keep 9 up with changes. 10 If there are no other preliminary 11 matters, Mr. Harper, do you want to make an 12 opening? 13 MR. DWORKIN: I do have one, Your 14 Honor. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sir. 16 MR. DWORKIN: In the trial brief 17 that I submitted to the Court a few moments 18 ago before we went on the record, I just 19 discovered a typographical error. And onpage 20 6 where I refer to, about a quarter of the way 21 down the page, FAA-2011-0486, that should be 22 FAA-2011-0485.
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• 17 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 3 Honor. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you for 5 bringing that up. 6 Mr. Harper, anything else? 7 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor, just 8 opening statement. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 10 MR. HARPER: These three cases 11 involve miscounting baggage being loaded on a 12 SkyWest aircraft and the resulting operation 13 of those aircraft by SkyWest with inaccurate 14 weight and balance information. Each case 15 alleged violations of 14 CFR 192.5 golf 1n 16 that SkyWest operates an air carrier 1n 17 violation of its operations specifications; 18 119.5 lima in that SkyWest operated the 19 aircraft 1n violation of its operation 20 specifications; and 121.693 Alpha, Charlie, 21 Delta, in that it operated aircraft with 22 inaccurate load manifests, total aircraft
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• 18 1 weight not computed under applicable 2 procedures and not loading according to 3 approved schedule. 4 Case No. FAA-2011-0485 concerns 5 three flights. The first is SkyWest Flight 6 4569 taking place November 22, 2010, from 7 Billings, Montana to Salt Lake City. The 8 second is SkyWest Flight 6692 taking place 9 December 14, 2010, from Los Angeles to San 10 Diego. The third is SkyWest Flight 4800 11 taking place on December 15, 2010, from Los 12 Angeles to San Diego. 13 In its answers SkyWest admitted 14 all the factual allegations in the case with 15 the exception of Nos. 18, 22, and 26 which 16 alleged the number of bags actually loaded 17 onto those flights. In that case there is, 1n 18 essence, one factual issue in dispute, which 19 is how many bags were actually loaded onto the 20 aircraft. 21 As with all these cases, SkyWest's 22 affirmative defenses have put into question
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• 19 1 the appropriateness of the sanction the FAA 2 seeks in the case which for 0485 works up to 3 $32,000 per flight. 4 Case No. FAA-2011-0486 involves 5 one flight, Flight 6573, takingplaceNovember 6 17, 2010, from Denver to Napa Valley, 7 Colorado. On December 2, 2011 you granted a 8 Motion for Decision on the question of 9 liability. Thus, the only thing we're going 10 to be discussing here today is the question of 11 what an appropriate sanction is. 12 And the l a s t c a s e 13 FAA-2011-0680/799 concerns one flight, SkyWest 14 Flight 4451, taking place on February 15, 15 2011, from Salt Lake City to Casper, Wyoming. 16 In its answer SkyWest again admitted all the 17 factual allegations with the exception of No. 18 11, which relates to the number of bags that 19 were actually located on the aircraft. As 20 before, that's the only factual dispute in the 21 case. As with all the other cases, we are 22 here mainly to discuss the appropriate
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• 20 1 sanction. And for this case, as Your Honor 2 expounded upon earlier today, the double 3 docketing issue. EssentiallytodayFAA will be 4 putting on evidence of how many bags and how 5 we count the number of bags. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 7 you want to reserve? 8 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, I will, Your 9 Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 11 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls ASI 12 McKenna. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: While he's 14 approaching the stand, let me reiterate what 15 I said in the prior hearing. As all Counsel 16 know, everything we do here today to goes on 17 the Internet. I know I repeat this in every 18 case, but it's important enough that I think 19 we need to repeat it and put it on the record. 20 Consequently, please review your exhibits to 21 make sure there's no personal identifying 22 information on the exhibits: No home
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• 21 1 addresses, phone numbers, cell numbers, dates 2 of birth, Social Securitynumbers, or anything 3 else. 4 When a witness testifies, I prefer 5 they use a business address and phone number. 6 I don't feel it's necessary. I know as 7 attorneys we're all used to doing it as 8 foundational issue. You don't have to if you 9 don't want to. 10 If we get to a point where 11 anything in any of these discussions even 12 looks like it's going towards a security 13 1ssue, I would suggest that we seal all or a 14 portion of that record. We live 1n an 15 environment where we can't have all this 16 information floating around on the Internet. 17 I prefer to error towards safety and, you 18 know, sealing the record as opposed to letting 19 something get out inadvertently. 20 It happens all the time. We 21 inadvertently leave something in a document 22 that shouldn't be there. I review it. Ms. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 22 1 Matthews andMr. Liebowitz both review it. If 2 we pick up something, we'll line through it 3 and let you know. But just keep that in mind 4 as we go through this. 5 Sir, stand and raise your right 6 hand. 7 (Witness sworn.) 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 9 State your full name for the 10 record and spell your first and last name. 11 THE WITNESS: James McKenna, 12 J-A-M-E-S. Last name McKenna, M-C, capital 13 K-E-N-N-A. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 15 MR. HARPER: Yes, sir. Before we 16 go any further I neglected to ask that we 17 invoke the rule and sequester the witnesses. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. What that 19 means 1s any of the witnesses that are going 20 to testify I'm going to ask you to step out in 21 the hallway. Don't go wandering around the 22 courtroom [verbatim] You're not to discuss NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 23 1 your testimony with anybody during the course 2 of the hearing. And the rule on sequestration 3 will apply all witnesses. 4 Having said that, each side is 5 entitled to have a technical witness with him, 6 either at the bench-- I'm sorry, at the table 7 or 1n the courtroom. Mr. Harper has one 8 sitting with him. 9 Mr. Dworkin, you're also entitled 10 to have one sit with you in the back. Anybody 11 who is going to testify other than the witness 12 on the stand, I'm going to ask you to step out 13 of the courtroom. 14 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, must we? 15 I mean, we're dealing with honorable people on 16 both sides. I think the chances of somebody's 17 testimony being poisoned or altered or in any 18 way influencedby another witness on the stand 19 is virtually nonexistent. 20 SkyWest and the FAA, all these 21 people know each other. They work with each 22 other on a day-to-day basis. They have a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 24 1 cooperative working relationship. This hearing 2 is basically an agreement to disagree on 3 certain issues, and I really don't think that 4 sequestration is really necessary. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 6 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 7 be more comfortable if we did sequester the 8 witnesses. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is no 10 reflection on anybody. This is something 11 that's done as a matter of standard 1n a lot 12 of cases. 13 So I respect your argument, Mr. 14 Dworkin, but my policy is usually if one 15 counsel asks, I ask that any witnesses just 16 wait outside. 17 MR. DWORKIN: We will ask Mr. 18 Barclay to stay, if you want. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, they 20 can sit 1n the pews or they can sit with you. 21 I don't care where the technical witness sits. 22 MR. DWORKIN: All SkyWest's
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• 25 1 witnesses just hang around so we can find you. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I was 1n a 3 courtroom 1n Seattle, as I mentioned in the 4 last case, we were halfway through the 5 afternoon

-- and, Mr. Dworkin, I think you've 6 been there. All of a sudden all the lights go 7 out. Everybody was looking at each other. I 8 thought I had done something. It turns out 9 the lights are on a motion detector. So it's 10 the only case I've had, Mr. Dworkin, where I 11 ordered counsel to keep moving. 12 MR. DWORKIN: I had a case in 13 Stockton, California, many years ago. It was 14 an all electronic courtroom. All the counsel 15 tables, the judge, the witness

-- everything 16 was hot mic'd. If you needed to say something 17 to your client or to co-counsel, you had to 18 push a mute button, otherwise everything was 19 on the record. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. That's

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• 26 1 you know. I don't touch buttons. 2 MR. DWORKIN: I notice that there 3 are a lot of FAA people here today. They're 4 observers? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: They're observers. 6 They heard you were going to be in town, Mr. 7 Dworkin. That's why they're all here. 8 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 9 MR. HARPER: All the witnesses I 10 anticipate calling have 1n fact left. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. 12 JAMES MCKENNA, 13 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. HARPER: 17 Q Mr. McKenna, could you please 18 describe your aviation background? 19 A I have a little over 25 years 1n 20 aviation. Four of those were military and 21 maintenance. I have another 16 years in the 22 industry, both as maintenance and quality
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• 27 1 assurance and Part 121 1 as well as another 2 five years ln a regulatory authority working 3 for the FAA. 4 Q Do you hold any airman 5 certificates? 6 A Yes/ I do. 7 Q What certificates do you hold? 8 A An airframe and a Powerplant 9 certificate. 10 Q What do you currently do for a 11 living? 12 A I 1m currently assigned to the 13 SkyWest Certificate Management Office here in 14 Salt Lake City where I am an aviation safety 15 inspector ln the ASI. Primarily I conduct 16 surveillance activities 1 SkyWest Airlines 17 maintenance and inspection program/ whether 18 they 1re performing it or they have someone 19 else contracted to do it. 20 Q Have you ever been an employee of 21 SkyWest in any capacity? 22 A No 1 slr. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 28 1 Q Are you familiar with the 2 violations in FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060033 3 before this Court as FDMS Nos. 4 FAA-2011-0680/0779? 5 A Yes, sir, I am. 6 Q How are you familiar with them? 7 A I initiated the 0033 one. 8 Q How did they come to your -- how 9 did the alleged violations come to your 10 attention? 11 A I was assigned to do surveillance 12 inCasper, Wyoming, for an elementperformance 13 inspection for cargo loading and at which time 14 I conducted surveillance up there and I walked 15 away with some discrepancy. 16 Q What 1s an element performance 17 inspection? 18 A An element performance inspection 19 is a data collection tool that the FAA uses to 20 oversee the air carrier where they look at the 21 requirements of their manual, whether or not 22 they're meeting the requirements of their
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• 29 1 manual, the design of the system that they 2 actually put out for their personnel to 3 utilize. And so we just go verify that it 4 actually 1s doing what it's supposed to do by 5 observing activities of the personnel 6 performing those duties. 7 Q Did you perform that element of 8 performance inspection on SkyWest Flight 4451 9 taking place on February 15, 2011? 10 A 2000

-- it was 2011, but it was 11 February 15th. Yes, I did. 12 Q And 1n performing that element 13 performance inspection, what did you actually 14 do? What was the process you went through to 15 complete that inspection? 16 A We wait for inbound aircraft to 17 come 1n, also outbound, but this one I was 18 looking at an inbound aircraft. We usually 19 brief the personnel that are there that were 20 conducting surveillance. So the day that 21 aircraft came in, I walked out on the ramp 22 when it came into Casper. I observed them
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• 30 1 

### offloading the cargo out of the F cargo pit, 2 and then I compared that against the cargo 3 loader report, the CLR, which I 

### obtained from 4 the flight crew and debriefed

-- debriefed the 5 crews after I 

### accomplished that. 6 Q 

### So, in essence, one of the things 7 you did was counted the number of bags as they 8 

### came off the aircraft. 9 A 

### Yes. I 

### counted each and every bag 10 

### that comes off. They have checked bags and 11 they have carry-on bags. I 

### usually use a 12 

### notebook where I 

### do tallies as I 

### go through 13 and then I 

### count them and I 

### match them up with 14 this Cargo Load Report which I 

### obtained. 15 Q 

### Did you do that for this flight? 16 A 

### Yes, I 

### did more than likely 17 because that's the system that I 

### use. 18 Q 

### How many bag did how many 19 standard

-- heavy bags did you count com1ng 20 

### off Flight 4451? 21 A 

### One. 22 Q 

### And how did you recognize that
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• 31 1 that bag was a heavy bag? 2 A It had a heavy tag assigned to it. 3 Q Did you take any pictures that 4 day? 5 A I did. 6 Q There's a binder in front of you. 7 If I could ask you to turn to the tab marked 8 as C-1. 9 MR. HARPER: A copy of this binder 10 has beenpreviouslyprovided to the Court, the 11 court reporter, and opposing counsel. 12 A I have it. 13 Q Do you recognize this document? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q What 1s it? 16 A It's a photograph of the one heavy 17 bag, of the check tag on this as well as the 18 heavy bag tag that was assigned to it. 19 Q Did you take this photograph? 20 A I did. 21 Q How do you know that you took this 22 photograph?
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• 32 1 A Well, not only just remember it 2 from Casper, but I also have my signature on 3 the back verifying that I was the one who 4 actually took the picture. 5 Q Does this photograph fairly and 6 accurately depict the bag as you a saw it on 7 that date? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the 10 Government would offer Complainant's 1 for 11 identification as Complainant's 1 . 12 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 1 14 for identification is received into evidence 15 as Complainant's 1. 16 (EXHIBIT NO. C-1 WAS RECEIVED.) 17 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. McKenna, was 18 this bag counted for on the weight and balance 19 information for Flight 443? 20 A No, sir, it was not. 21 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 22 Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 33 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 3 Q You said you counted the bags that 4 were coming

-- you said you were counting the 5 bags that were coming off the aircraft? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And you recorded these 1n a 8 notebook of some sort? 9 A Yes, s1r. 10 Q Do you have the notebook? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q What did you do with the notebook? 13 A After I do surveillance 14 activities, I usually get rid of all the 15 notes. Like when this happened right here, I 16 took all the notes that I need and I wrote it 17 down and we put an IO on it. 18 Q Put a what? 19 A We sent a letter to the carrier 20 notifying them of this discrepancy. 21 Q You mean a letter of investigation 22 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 34
1 A Yes. 2 Q -- an LOI. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Then you opened up the EIR. 5 A Yeah. 6 Q Okay. So this was what type of 7 aircraft that had come into Casper? 8 A It was a CRJ. 9 Q And was this the 50-seat CRJ or 10 was it the larger CRJ? 11 A I 'm not sure. I looked at the 12 cargo bin on that one. I'd have to look at 13 the tail number and verify it. I think it's 14 through the registration. 15 Q Do you know how many people were 16 on the airplane? 17 A No, s1r, I do not. 18 Q And what was the total number of 19 bags on the airplane? 20 A I'd have to look at the CLR to 21 determine that. 22 Q Okay. So as you sit here today,
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• 35 1 you have no recollection as to the numbers of 2 bags that came off the airplane. 3 A No, sir. 4 Q All you can recall as you sit here 5 today is that there was one heavy bag that did 6 not appear on the CLR as a heavy bag, but it 7 appeared as a standard bag. 8 A Yes, sir. It was not assigned on 9 the CLR as being identified as a heavy bag. 10 The actual count on the CLR was correct, but 11 the bag was not identified as a heavy bag. 12 Q Okay. And under SkyWest's Weight 13 and Balance Program, standard bags are 14 considered to weigh 30 pounds. Is that 15 correct? 16 A I'm not sure of that. 17 Q You're not sure what the weights 18 are. 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do you what are the weights 21 that heavy bags are assigned? 22 A I'm not sure on that either.
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• 36 1 Q Do you know the differential 2 between standardbags andheavybags under the 3 SkyWest average weights program? 4 A I'm sorry. I don't understand the 5 question. 6 Q Well, heavy bags are assigned X 7 weight. Standard bags are assigned Y weight. 8 Do you know what the difference in pounds is 9 between X and Y? 10 A No, sir, I do not. 11 Q Did you -- in the course of your 12 investigation did you make a determination as 13 to who the person was who filled out the CLR? 14 A I do not believe that I made that 15 determination, no, sir. 16 Q Did you interview the people who 17 loaded the aircraft? 18 A No, s1r, I did not. 19 Q So all you saw was baggage coming 20 off. 21 A Yes. Baggage coming off and the 22 completed Cargo Load Report, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 37 1 Q And the completed Cargo Load 2 Report was given to you by the flight crew. 3 A Yes, s1r. 4 Q Now, is the Cargo Load Report a 5 record that's required to be kept or 6 maintained under the federal aviation 7 regulations? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Do you know what the disposition 10 of the CLR is, or the Cargo Load Report is, 11 under SkyWest's Weight and Balance Program? 12 A No, sir, I do not. 13 Q Did you compare the CLR with the 14 actual load manifest on the airplane? 15 A I do not recall that, no. I 16 looked at the bags coming off and compared it 17 to the Cargo Load Report. 18 Q So as you sit here today, you 19 don't know if the weights that were entered in 20 the CLR ended up in the load manifest for the 21 aircraft. 22 A As I sit here now, no. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 38 1 Q Do you know what the gross takeoff 2 weight of the aircraft was? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q So as you sit here today, you have 5 no idea whatsoever as to whether or not this 6 difference between a standardbag or heavybag 7 ln any way affected the weight of the 8 aircraft. 9 A No, slr. 10 Q While you were at Casper were 11 there any other aircraft that you looked at 12 for the purpose of counting baggage? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q And you have no recollection as to 15 how many bags you counted that day? 16 A No, slr. I'd have to look at the 17 Cargo Load Report. 18 Q Do you recall what time of day 19 this was? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q In connection with your 22 withdraw that.
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• 39 1 MR. DWORKIN: No further 2 questions. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. HARPER: 6 Q Mr. McKenna, where were you 7 standing in relation to the aircraft when you 8 counted the bags? 9 A At the end of the baggage loader, 10 belt loader. 11 Q Was it daytime that day? 12 A Yes, slr. 13 Q Did you have a clear view? Was 14 your view obstructed in any way of the bags 15 coming off the aircraft? 16 A No, sir. 17 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 18 MR. DWORKIN: No recross. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 20 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 21 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 22 hearing. You may step down. It's up to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 40 1 Counsel for the FAA whether you're free to go 2 or not. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 4 Honor. 5 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 6 calls Yvonne Huymh. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to go 8 get her? 9 MR. HARPER: I'm sorry? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I assume she's out 11 of the room. Do you want somebody to go get 12 her? 13 Stand and raise your right hand. 14 (Witness sworn.) 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 16 State your full name for the 17 record and spell your first and last name. 18 THE WITNESS: Yvonne C. Huymh, 19 Y-V-0-N-N-E, last name H-U-Y-M-H. 20 YVONNE C. HUYMH, 21 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 22 was examined and testified as follows:
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• 41 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. HARPER: 3 Q Ms. Huymh, could you please 4 describe your aviation background? 5 A I have a little over 27 years 1n 6 aviation. I start as aircraft assembler for 7 two years and then went to Roy Industries for 8 15 years. At Roy Industries I have various 9 positions suchas qualityassurance inspector, 10 designees like DIMR, DAR. And the last 11 position I have before I left the company I 12 was chief inspector, and then I joined the FAA 13 for 10 years. 14 Q What office are you assigned to 15 with the FAA? 16 A I'm currently assigned to SkyWest 17 Certificate Management Office. 18 Q And what position do you hold 19 there? 20 A I'm currently assigned as the 21 principal avionics inspector. 22 Q Have you ever been an employee of
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• 42 1 SkyWest 1n any capacity? 2 A I haven't. 3 Q Could you please briefly describe 4 your duties as the principal avionics 5 inspector? 6 A My duty and responsibility as the 7 principal inspector

-- I oversee and monitor 8 the surveillance activities, tracking the 9 results, reviewingtheresults of surveillance 10 and work with the principal maintenance to 11 decide what appropriate action to take. 12 Q Did you perform surveillance on 13 any SkyWest Airlines flights taking place on 14 December 14, 2010? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Where did that surveillance take 17 place? 18 A At SkyWest live station in 19 Lindbergh Field, San Diego. 20 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, for the 21 record, we're discussing the violations case 22 FDMS No. 2011-0485. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 43 1 Q (By MR. HARPER) What was the 2 purpose of that surveillance? 3 A I was assigned to perform a 4 ConDOR, which meant constructed dynamic 5 observation report. More specific task to 6 perform, it spell out exactly what need to be 7 inspect at certain location. 8 Q Did you perform this inspection on 9 Flight 6692? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q And what exactly did you actually 12 do 1n the performance of that ConDOR 13 surveillance? 14 A The ConDOR requires us -- me to 15 perform a cargo handling which I checking on 16 the cargo load by counting the baggage that 17 that flight came in from. 18 Q Where were you standing when you 19 counted the bags that came off Flight 6692? 20 A I approached to the cargo door 21 with the SkyWest ramp personnel present at the 22 same time. And as soon as the cargo door
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• 44 1 opened, the cargo load reaching the door, 2 myself and SkyWest ramp personnel start 3 counting the bag off the cargo bin. 4 Q How many standard bags did you 5 count coming off Flight 6692? 6 A Counted quite back ago. Can I 7 take a look at the inspector statement for 8 sure? 9 Q Certainly, if you can give me a 10 moment to track that down. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 12 MR. HARPER: Showing opposing 13 counsel. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 15 MR. HARPER: Permission to 16 approach? 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Give it to 18 the Court for a second. Since it's going to 19 be referred to, I'm going to mark this as 20 Complainant 8 for identification. 21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, if I 22 could ask that you make that Complainant 100
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• 45 1 just to make sure we're clear. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's a 3 frightening thought. 4 MR. DWORKIN: That's okay. We'll 5 start at R1000. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You notice he 7 brought a large book into the courtroom. The 8 last time I had a case like this I only had 9 500 exhibits. 10 Q (By MR. HARPER) If you could just 11 look at your statement and read it to 12 yourself. When you're done if you could hand 13 it back to me. 14 Do you now recall how many bags 15 you counted? 16 A Standard bag, 19. 17 Q Did you count any heavy bags 18 coming off the aircraft? 19 A Yes, one bag. 20 Q How did you recognize that that 21 bag was a heavy bag? 22 A In addition to the standard bar
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• 46 1 code wide tag, there's an orange tag have the 2 word "heavy" on it. 3 Q Did you have a clear unobstructed 4 view of the baggage as it came off the 5 aircraft? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And how did you keep track of the 8 number of bags that were com1ng off the 9 aircraft? 10 A I have my planner always with me 11 when I go out and do surveillance, and I mark 12 it on my planner as I count. 13 Q Did you use that document to 14 prepare your inspector's statement that you 15 just referred to? 16 A I do not have it. 17 Q I understand you don't have it 18 here today. What I'm asking is: Did you use 19 it to prepare your inspector's statement? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q Did anyone else count the bags on 22 Flight 6692?
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• 47 1 A Yes. The SkyWest ramp personnel. 2 Q Did they

-- how many of them were 3 there? 4 A There's two. 5 Q Did they agree or disagree with 6 your count? 7 A They agreed. 8 Q Are you also familiar with 9 violations relating to Flight 4800? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did you perform a surveillance on 12 that flight? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q As part of that surveillance, did 15 you count the bags that came off Flight 4800? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q Did that surveillance take place 18 December 15, 2010? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Where did it take place? 21 A At the same location, SkyWest live 22 station in Lindbergh Field, San Diego.
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• 48 1 Q Was this the same inspection you 2 performed on Flight 6692, the ConDOR 3 inspection for cargo handling? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you count the bags being 6 offloaded from that aircraft? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How many standard bags did you 9 count being taken off of Flight 4800? 10 A May I take a look at another 11 inspector statement? 12 Q Certainly. 13 MR. HARPER: I'm showing oppos1ng 14 counsel the inspector statement which was 15 previously provided in discovery. 16 MR. DWORKIN: This lS Mr. 17 Reynolds' statement? 18 MR. HARPER: It is. 19 Permission to approach, Your 20 Honor? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 22 We'll mark that as Complainant 101
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• 49
1 

### for identification. This lS 

### Exhibit 2 Complainant's 101 for identification. 3 

### MR. HARPER: I'm showing Ms. Huymh 4 inspector statement that she requested. 5 Q 

### (By MR. HARPER) If you could just 6 read that to yourself and look up when you're 7 

### done. 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Thank you, ma'am. I'm taking it 10 back. 11 Ms. Huymh, do you now recall how 12 many bags were unloaded from Flight 4800? 13 A 

### Forty-three standard. 14 Q 

### And did you count any heavy bags 15 coming off Flight 4800? 16 A 

### Yes, four bags. 17 Q 

### Again how did you recognize that 18 those bags were heavy bags? 19 A 

### Same, with the heavy orange tag. 20 Q 

### Were there any plane-side 21 valet/service items that came off Flight 4800? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 50 1 Q How many? 2 A There was 12. 3 MR. HARPER: Thank you. 4 No further questions, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. DWORKIN: 8 Q Ms. Huymh, let's let's talk 9 about December 14, 2010. This flight 6692. 10 What time of day did this occur? 11 A It was in the morning, close to 12 probably around 9:00, 10:00 or -- I'm not 13 really sure as far back ago. 14 Q Were there other SkyWest planes on 15 the ramp at the time? 16 A I think normally only one flight 17 come in at the time at that station. 18 Q So this is the only aircraft that 19 you observedbeing unloaded. Is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Are you familiar with SkyWest's 22 Weight and Balance Program? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 51 1 A Yes. 2 Q Standard bags under the average 3 weights program are given what weight? 4 A Up to 50 pounds. 5 Q Standard bags up to 50 pounds? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And but for purposes of the 8 average weights program, are they assigned a 9 particular weight? 10 A The standard bag is up to 50 11 pounds, and then the heavy bag is from 50 to 12 100. Then if it's more than 100 it belongs 13 considered as a cargo. 14 Q Okay. But under the average 15 weights program are these standard bags and 16 heavy bags assigned a particular weight for 17 flight planning purposes? 18 A I do not know exactly how the 19 flight crew calculated. 20 Q In connection with your 21 investigation didyou look into who the people 22 were who loaded this airplane and who filled
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• 52 1 out the CLR? 2 A Happened that this flight came 3 from LAX and what I witnessed when I'm 4 counting the bag is they offload. The Cargo 5 Load Report already done at the other 6 location. At the San Diego live station 7 there's only uploaded the bag [verbatim]. 8 Q You didn't investigate who loaded 9 the aircraft and who filled out the CLR? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q All you know 1s that the flight 12 came 1n from Los Angeles? 13 A Yes. Actually after I count the 14 bag and compare the total of the bag to 15 quantity, then we talk to the supervisor. 16 Q This Flight 6692, this was being 17 operated by SkyWest as a United Express 18 flight. Is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. So with respect to the 21 loading of the aircraft at Los Angeles, 22 because that's where the flight came from, and
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• 53 1 with respect to the CLR, did you make any 2 determination as to whether the aircraft was 3 loaded by SkyWest people at Los Angeles or by 4 United people at Los Angeles? 5 A I do not have any idea on that. 6 Q And ln the course of your 7 investigation did you make any determination 8 as to whether it was SkyWest people at Los 9 Angeles or United people at Los Angeles who 10 completed the CLR? 11 MR. HARPER: Objection, Your 12 Honor. Relevance. SkyWest admitted they were 13 the operators of this flight and, therefore, 14 any violations are their responsibility. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 16 MR. DWORKIN: Objection was 17 overruled? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Objection is 19 overruled. 20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) You may answer the 21 question. 22 A I do not know.
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• 54 1 Q And with respect to the

-- and so 2 actually you observed these number of bags 3 coming off the airplane and presumably the 4 number of bags coming off the airplane equaled 5 the number of bags that were put on the 6 airplane. Is that correct? 7 A I did. 8 Q We're acting on that assumption? 9 A It's supposed to, but I do not 10 assume. I actually count. 11 Q Okay. So you don't know how many 12 bags were actually put on the aircraft at Los 13 Angeles. Is that correct? 14 A Yes, I did not know. 15 Q Let's go to Flight 4800 on 16 December 15th. Again this was the only 17 aircraft that you had checked on that day? 18 A No, sir. I did several flights, 19 but only this flight was the one that had 20 discrepancy. 21 Q Okay. So how many other flights 22 were there that had no discrepancies? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 55 1 A Two I don't really can't 2 recall exactly how many. 3 Q And again this was a flight that 4 originated in Los Angeles. Is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And although you counted the 7 number of bags coming off the aircraft, you 8 don't know how many bags were actually loaded 9 at Los Angeles. Correct? 10 A I know by looking at the Cargo 11 Load Report. 12 Q Okay. And you don't know who 13 loaded the aircraft, whether it was SkyWest or 14 United people. Is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you don't know who prepared 17 the CLR? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q And you didn't make any attempt to 20 find out who those people were or to contact 21 them 1n connection with your investigation. 22 Is that correct?
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• 56 1 MR. HARPER: Just for the record, 2 the witness shook her head to indicate a 3 negative response. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have

-- you 5 have to respond orally. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's okay. 8 Q (By MR. HARPER) And as I

-- as I 9 total up Flight 4800, what you observed, 10 between the 43 standard bags and the four 11 heavy bags and the 12 valet bags and the COMAT 12 one bag, that totals 60. Is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And the CLR showed 60 bags. It 15 just accounted for the wrong number of 16 standardbags and didn't account for the heavy 17 bags or the valet bags. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q The total number was the same. 20 It's just that they didn't break down the 21 classification. Correct? 22 A I have

-- sorry. I have to look
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• 57 1 at the inspector's statement in order to 2 really know exactly the number. 3 Q Do you have it? 4 A No. 5 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 6 approach, Your Honor? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 8 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) This 1s actually 9 Mr. Reynolds' statement. You were with Mr. 10 Reynolds that day. Correct? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. HARPER: Mr. Dworkin, if I 13 gave you Mr. Reynolds' statement, I gave you 14 the wrong one. 15 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, this is her 16 statement. I'm sorry. December 14 oh, 17 December 15th. 18 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'm showing you 19 what's been marked as Exhibit C-101. And you 20 were with-- this is Mr. Reynolds' statement. 21 Is that correct? 22 A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 58
1 Q You were with Mr. Reynolds on that 2 day, on December 15th? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you concurred with Mr. 5 Reynolds' calculations as to the numbers of 6 bags that came off the airplane? 7 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat? 8 Q Did you agree with Mr. Reynolds' 9 totals as to the number of bags that came off 10 the airplane? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Okay. So as I add up the 13 offloaded bags 43 standard, four heavy 14 checked, 12 plane side, and one COMAT 15 that's 60 bags. Is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And the CLR listed 59 standard 18 checked, one COMAT, andyou total that andyou 19 get 60 bags. Is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So apparently whoever filled out 22 the CLR forgot to differentiate the heavybags
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• 59 1 and the valet bags and simply treated them all 2 as standard bags. Is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Yes? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, under the under the 7 SkyWest Weight and Balance Program, is it not 8 true that the weights of plane-sidevalet bags 9 and standard checked bags are the same? 10 A I'm not sure on that, sir. 11 Q So as you sit here today, you 12 cannot testify as to any weight differential 13 in the aircraft between what came off the 14 aircraft and what was recorded in the CLR. Is 15 that correct? 16 A I am calculating as the weight of 17 individual category as standard, heavy, and 18 valet. And I do not calculate it into the 19 operation side of the house 20 Q Okay. So

-- 21 A that the flight crews -- 22 Q So you don't know what numbers the
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• 60 1 

### flight crew used 1n computing their load 2 manifest and in computing the aircraft 3 

### performance data for the flight. Is that 4 correct? 5 A 

### Yes, sir. 6 Q 

### And did you get the CLRs from the 7 flight crew? 8 A 

### I did not inspect. Reynolds did. 9 Q 

### How about on the previous day, on 10 December 14th, did you get the CLR from the 11 flight crew? 12 A 

### The same thing Inspector 13 Reynolds did. 14 Q 

### Did you actually see the CLRs? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Okay. So Mr. Reynolds showed you 17 the CLRs? 18 A 

### Yes, sir. 19 Q 

### Did you compute the weight and 20 balance for this flight of December 15th? 21 A 

### I did not, s1r. 22 Q 

### Did you compute the weight and
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• 61 1 balance for the previous day's flight on 2 December 14th? 3 A May I try to understand the word 4 "compute"? Is that calculate? 5 Q Calculate, yes. 6 A For the flight or just for what I 7 count? 8 Q For the entire flight. Did you 9 calculate the weight and balance for the 10 flights of December 14 and December 15? 11 A I did not. 12 MR. DWORKIN: No further 13 questions. Thank you. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 15 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 16 Your Honor. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ma'am, I'm going 18 to instruct you not to discuss your testimony 19 with anyone during the pendency of the 20 hearing, that means while the hearing is going 21 on. It's up to Counsel whether you have to 22 remain in the area, but you're excused. You NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 62 1 can step down. 2 Mr. Harper? 3 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. FAA 4 would like to call Mr. Gehring. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just leave that 6 there. Thank you. 7 Counsel, I'll leave it to you 8 whether you want to retrieve the exhibits or 9 not. 10 Sir, approach. Stand up and raise 11 your right hand. 12 (Witness sworn.) 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 14 State your name for the record and spell your 15 first and last name. 16 THE WITNESS: My name is Wendell 17 Gehring. First name is W-E-N-D-E-L-L. Last 18 name is Gehring G-E-H-R-I-N-G. 19 WENDELL "SKEETER" GEHRING, 20 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 21 was examined and testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
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• 63 1 BY MR. HARPER: 2 Q Mr. Gehring, could you please 3 describe your aviation background? 4 A Yes, sir. I started in general 5 aviation 1976. I gained employment with Delta 6 Airlines ln 1988. And then I was -- as a 7 supervisor in quality, and then I gained 8 employment with the FAA in 2009. 9 Q Do you hold any airmen 10 certificates? 11 A Yes, sir. I hold a maintenance 12 A&P rating, Airframe and Powerplant rating. 13 I also hold flight ratings of commercial 14 instrument and multi-handling land ratings. 15 Q What do you currently do for a 16 living? 17 A I'm an aviation safety inspector 18 for the SkyWest CMO located here in Salt Lake 19 City. 20 Q What do your duties involve? 21 A My duties involve air carrier 22 certificatemanagement, as an assistant to the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 64 1 PMI in maintenance, surveillance and all the 2 other functions that are in the FAA which is 3 investigating occurrences and doing oversight 4 of the SkyWest. 5 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest in 6 any capacity? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Have you ever been an employee of 9 SkyWest Airlines? 10 A No, s1r. 11 Q Are you familiar with the 12 violations in FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011 13 before this Court as DMS No. FAA-2011-0485? 14 A Yes, s1r. 15 Q How are you familiar with the 16 allegations in the case? 17 A I conducted the some of the 18 surveillance and then also I put together the 19 case. 20 Q Did you perform surveillance on 21 Flight 4659 taking place onNovember 22, 2010? 22 A Yes, sir.
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• 65 1 Q Where did you perform that 2 surveillance? 3 A That was at the Salt Lake City 4 International Airport. 5 Q What was the purpose of the 6 surveillance in Salt Lake City? 7 A The surveillance was a constructed 8 door which is a dynamic observation report 9 which is put together by the

-- the PMI, the 10 principal maintenance inspector. Principle 11 operations inspectors have that option to 12 design a task, surveillance task, a specific 13 task that you go and do. 14 Q What did this specific task 15 requ1re you to do? 16 A The instructions for this task 17 were to were to look at the cargo and the 18 baggage systems at SkyWest Airlines at the 19 airport at the

-- specifically at Salt Lake 20 City. 21 Q Did you count the bags that came 22 off of Flight 4659?
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• 66 1 A Yes, sir, I did. 2 Q How did you keep track of the 3 numbers of bags that came off Flight 4659? 4 A I count them out loud, but I have 5 a mechanical counter I also keep on my -- on 6 my finger which latches the numbers and as 7 they came off, and then I put the two numbers 8 together to verify that I didn't miscount in 9 my head. 10 Q Where were you standing when you 11 counted the bags? 12 A Basically straight underneath the 13 inlet of the No. 1 engine where the cargo load 14

-- loader comes up and goes right into the 15 cargo compartment. 16 Q Were there any obstructions to 17 your ability to see bags coming off the 18 aircraft? 19 A No, s1r. 20 Q How many standard bags did you 21 count coming off Flight 4659? 22 A Standard bags were 38, s1r.
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• 67 1 Q And how many heavy bags came off 2 Flight 4659? 3 A Two bags. 4 Q How did you recognize that those 5 bags were heavy bags? 6 A The policies and procedures 7 they put an orangish tag on it that says heavy 8 bag. 9 Q Did you take any pictures that 10 day? 11 A Yes, sir, I did. 12 Q There's a binder in front of you. 13 If I could ask you to flip to the tab marked 14 C-2. Do you recognize this document? 15 A Yes, sir. It's a photograph I 16 took. 17 Q And what's it a photograph of? 18 A It's a photograph of one of the 19 heavy bags that came off that flight. 20 Q Does it fairly and accurately 21 depict that bag as it came off the aircraft as 22 you saw it that day?
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• 68 1 A Yes, sir. 2 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 3 wishes to have what's been marked as 4 Complainant's Exhibit C-2 into evidence as 5 Exhibit C-2. 6 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 7 Honor. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 2 9 for identification is received into evidence 10 as Complainant's 2. 11 (EXHIBIT NO. C-2 WAS RECEIVED.) 12 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, could 13 you please look to the tab marked C-3? Do you 14 recognize that document? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q What 1s it? 17 A That's the other photograph I took 18 of the second heavy bag that carne off, s1r. 19 Q How do you know that? 20 A Because it's got the orange heavy 21 bag tag on it. 22 Q Does it fairly and accurately
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• 69 1 depict that heavy bag as it came off the 2 aircraft as you saw it that day? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 5 would offer what's been marked as C-3 into 6 evidence as Exhibit C-3. 7 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 8 Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 3 is 10 received into evidence as Complainant's 3. 11 (EXHIBIT NO. C-3 WAS RECEIVED.) 12 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I'm 13 showing what I have marked as Complainant's 14 C-102 to opposing counsel. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: When you approach, 16 would you bring the other exhibits up so I can 17 get them input properly in my spreadsheet 18 here? I'll leave them up here on the bench. 19 MR. HARPER: Permission to 20 approach, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 22 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, Exhibits
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• 70 1 C-100 and C-101. Did you want to see C-102 as 2 well? 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 4 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, I'd 5 like you to look at Exhibit C-102. Do you 6 recognize what this document is? 7 A Yes, sir. It's SkyWest Airlines 8 document for customer service procedures. 9 Q How do you know that? 10 A It states that across the top. 11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 12 offers what's beenmarked as Exhibit C-102 for 13 identification into evidence as C-102. 14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 102 16 for identification is received into evidence 17 as Complainant's 102. 18 (EXHIBIT NO. C-102 WAS RECEIVED.) 19 MR. HARPER: I'm showing opposing 20 counsel what I've marked as Complainant 21 Exhibit C-103 for identification. 22 Permission to approach, Your
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• 71 1 Honor? 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 3 MR. HARPER: I'm showing Mr. 4 Gehring what's been marked as Complainant 5 Exhibit 103 for identification. 6 Q (By MR. HARPER) Mr. Gehring, do you 7 recognize that document? 8 A Yes. It's operation specs A098, 9 s1r. 10 Q How do you know that? 11 A It's listed as operation spec 12 A098. 13 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 14 offers Complainant's Exhibit 103 for 15 identification into evidence as Complainant's 16 Exhibit 103. 17 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 18 Honor. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 103 20 for identification is received in evidence as 21 Complainant's 103. 22 (EXHIBIT NO. C-103 WAS RECEIVED.) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 72 1 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 2 Your Honor. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to make sure, 4 was Complainant's 100 offered for evidence? 5 MR. HARPER: Neither Complainant's 6 Exhibit 100 or 101 have been offered as 7 evidence. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Can you hand 102 9 and 103 to the Court, please? 10 Give me just a second, Mr. 11 Dworkin. Okay, Mr. Dworkin. Thank you. 12 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you. 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. DWORKIN: 15 Q Inspector Gehring, you have a 16 commercial pilot's certificate. Do you have 17 a type rating for a Canadair Regional Jet? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q No? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q And the day that you were in Salt 22 Lake City you were doing this ConDOR function NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 73 1 paying attention to the actual loading of 2 baggage and cargo on a SkyWest aircraft. Is 3 that correct? 4 A Yes, s1r. 5 Q You were at Salt Lake. And Salt 6 Lake is a maJor hub for SkyWest Airlines. Is 7 that correct? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q So what time of day did you get to 10 the airport, do you recall? 11 A No, sir. I don't recall exactly 12 when we started. 13 Q Was this particular flight from 14 Billings, Flight 4659, is this the only 15 aircraft

-- the only flight that you inspected 16 or were there others? 17 A There were others, sir. 18 Q How many others were there? 19 A I don't recall how many aircraft I 20 looked at that day, s1r. I didn't bring that 21 information with me. It 1s recorded. 22 Q More than three? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 74 1 A I don't recall how many I did, 2 s1r. 3 Q How much time did you spend at the 4 airport that day? 5 A I would estimate four hours. 6 Q And with respect to Flight 4659, 7 how long did it take you to do this bag check? 8 A I didn't time how long it took. I 9 did the bag check during the time that they 10 completely unloaded the aircraft aft bag 11 compartment. This was a 200. 12 Q Which is the 50-seat RJ. Is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes, s1r. 15 Q And approximately how long

-- how 16 much time did you spend doing the check for 17 this aircraft? 18 A I wouldn't speculate on that. I 19 didn't start my watch or stop my watch. I was 20 counting bags. And the amount of time

-- my 21 instructions didn't tell me to time the amount 22 of time I took to count these. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 75 1 Q So as you sit here, you have no 2 recollection as to how much time you spent 3 working this particular flight? 4 A Just the amount of time that it 5 actually took to watch them completely unload 6 the bags after the aircraft taxied up. The 7 aircraft taxied and so I hadn't started at 8 that point. The bags were unloaded. The count 9 was complete. Photographed the heavy bags. 10 The amount of time it takes to do that on an 11 average and to coordinate with the flight 12 crew, with the CLR, with Mr. McKenna, 13 inspector. That's how much time. 14 Q And how much time did that take 15 for this one flight? 16 A Like I said, s1r, I didn't inspect 17 [verbatim] that. It just depends on how fast 18 the loading crews load and unload the bags. 19 It varies between aircraft. 20 Q These aircraft basically operate 21 on a 20- to 30-minute turnaround time. Is 22 that correct?
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• 76 1 A They operate fairly quickly, sir. 2 Q So in other words, they come in, 3 they offload the bags. Within the next half 4 hour they're fully loaded and they're gone. 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q So what you observed, according to 7 your testimony, was 38 standard bags, two 8 heavy bags, 13 valet bags, total of 53 bags 9 coming off the airplane. 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Okay. And the CLR which you got 12 from the crew, flight crew? 13 A Inspector Jim McKenna, when we met 14 the airplane, went forward and met the flight 15 crew and obtained the CLR. It was inbound 16 flight. It wasn't an outbound flight. So he 17 met them. He pulled the CLR while I began to 18 count the bags. That way it's an accurate 19 counting. 20 Q But you looked at the CLR. 21 A Yes, sir. He came back and 22 brought me the CLR.
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• 77 1 Q And the CLR showed the same number 2 of total bags, 53. It's just that it didn't 3 count the two heavy bags. 4 A That is correct, sir. 5 Q Okay. And so those

-- those two 6 heavy bags were counted as standard bags. 7 A That 1s correct. 8 Q Now, when you were employed 9 well, withdraw. 10 Under SkyWest's Weight and Balance 11 Program, standardbags are assigned a 30-pound 12 weight. Is that correct? 13 A I'd have to get the I don't 14 have that memorized. I'd have to open the 15 manual and look. 16 Q Well, how about under ops spec 17 A098, does that specify the weights of bags? 18 A Could I see 098 again? 19 Q Sure. I believe the Court has it. 20 A Yes. It specifies 30, s1r. 21 Q Okay. And heavy bags are assigned 22 60. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 78 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And valet bags are assigned 30. 3 A Carry-on personal item is 16. 4 Q Well, plane-side valet bag? 5 A Plane-side valet bag is 30. 6 Q Thirty. Okay. So for the purpose 7 of weight and balance, plane-side valet and 8 standard bags weigh the same. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q So

-- and in connection with your 11 investigation, did you make any determination 12 as to who had loaded the aircraft at Billings? 13 A No, s1r. 14 Q Did you make any determination as 15 to the number of bags that were in fact loaded 16 at Billings? 17 A The number of bags loaded at 18 Billings would have been the number of bags 19 that came off the aircraft. 20 Q Unless hypothetically they forgot 21 to offload some bags at Billings before they 22 turned the airplane around. Right? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 79 1 A In that case it would be an 2 incorrect number of bags. 3 Q As you sit here today, do you know 4 if the flight crew of Flight 4659 utilized the 5 weights in the CLR for the purpose of 6 computing the load manifest? 7 A Yes, they use the CLR to compute 8 the load manifest. 9 Q And did you speak to the flight 10 crew about this? 11 A I did not personally. 12 Q So under the Weight and Balance 13 Program, the differential between the bags 14 observed coming off and what was in the CLR 15 was about 60 pounds. 16 A It was an error of 60 pounds, sir. 17 Q And what is the maximum gross 18 operating weight of a 50-seat Canadair 19 Regional Jet? 20 A I'd have to have the books to 21 compute that, sir. 22 Q You don't know that as you sit
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• 80 1 here today? 2 A As I sit here today, I don't know 3 what that 1s. 4 Q Now, when you were with Delta, you 5 were a supervisor for quality in which 6 department? 7 A Maintenance department, sir. 8 Q Did you deal with cargo loading at 9 Delta? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q On this particular Flight 4659, do 12 you know if the flight crew allowed any extra 13 bags or additional bags at the last minute 14 after the CLR was prepared? 15 A I don't have an opinion on that. 16 Q Do you know whether or not the 17 flight crew allowed any extra bags or any 18 changes after the CLR had been prepared? 19 A No, I do not know that. 20 Q Because in SkyWest's Weight and 21 Balance Program there is authority for the 22 pilots to allow changes after the CLR is
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• 81 1 prepared. Is that correct? 2 A I don't know that. I'd have to 3 read that part of the manual. If you would 4 bring that to me, I could see it. 5 MR. DWORKIN: No further 6 questions. Thank you. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 8 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 9 Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm go1ng to 11 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 12 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 13 hearing. You're free to step down. It's up 14 to the FAA counsel if you may stay in the 15 area. 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, do you 17 want this back? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please, s1r. 19 Thank you. 20 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, FAA rests 21 its case in chief. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, how
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• 82 1 many witnesses do you anticipate, just 2 ballpark? 3 MR. DWORKIN: Four. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me make a 5 suggestion, Counsel. It's 20 minutes after 6 11:00. 7 Rather than have you start, Mr. 8 Dworkin, and break your testimony, why don't 9 we break early and come back at 10 minutes of 10 1:00 and resume 10 minutes of 1:00? 11 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Work for 13 everybody? 14 MR. HARPER: Yes, s1r. 15 MR. DWORKIN: Sure. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: It is 11:20. We 17 will go off the record and ask everybody to 18 return at 10 minutes of 1:00, and we' 11 resume 19 at that point. 20 And, Mr. Dworkin, keep an eye on 21 the time because unfortunately I've got a 22 conference call I've got to take at 2:30.
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• 83 1 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. We're 3 off the record. 4 (A break was taken from 11:24 to 5 12:54 . ) 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: So we're back on 7 the record. 8 So, Mr. Dworkin, your pleasure. 9 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 10 Honor. 11 Your Honor, there's no dispute 12 that there was some disparity between the 13 number of items that were recorded on the 14 Cargo Load Report and the number of items that 15 were observed by three FAA inspectors as they 16 were deplaned from the aircraft. But this 17 case is really about counting errors, and it's 18 about human error. 19 Just as the Office of Hearings had 20 double-docketed one case, the people 21 responsible for loading bags did pretty much 22 the same thing. I mean, it's an inherent
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• 84 1 

### human flaw. Sometimes we lose count of 2 things/ whether we were kids and forgetting to 3 count our marbles correctly or adults and 4 

### poker chips or whatever. 5 

### And I 

### surmise that before this 6 

### case is over with all the documents/ despite 7 

### the fact that we have a very/ very seasoned 8 

### experienced judge and two seasoned or 9 several seasoned trial counsel/ sooner or 10 later before this case is over we 1

### re going to 11 

### misplace and forget about a number of 12 exhibits. And that 1 S 

### essentially what 13 happened. 14 SkyWest maintains that even though 15 there was -- there may have been a disparity/ 16 there was no safety of flight that was 17 safety of flight was not compromised. There 18 was no adverse effect on safety of flight. 19 Any weight discrepancies were nominal at best 20 andhad absolutelyno effect whatsoever on the 21 weight andbalance orperformance andhandling 22 of the aircraft and had no effect on SkyWest 1

### s NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 85 1 

### m1ss1on to transport people from point A to 2 

### point B 

### safely and efficiently and 3 comfortably. That is essentiallywhat we w.lll 4 show. 5 

### To keep this case in its proper 6 perspective, therewas approximatelyan 80-day 7 periodbetweenthe first violationonNovember 8 22, 2010 and February 15, 2011. During that 9 80-day period the evidence will show that 10 SkyWest operated some 120,000 flights and 11 carried some five to s1x million items of 12 baggage all without incident. And what we're 13 concerned with here are five particular 14 flights in which there were nominal, nominal, 15 disparities between what was contained in the 16 CLR and what was observed being offloaded. 17 And with that I am ready to call 18 my first witness. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Call your first 20 witness. 21 MR. DWORKIN: Mr. Salamone. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Raise your right
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• 86 1 hand. 2 (Witness sworn.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 4 State your name for the record and spell your 5 first and last name. 6 THE WITNESS: My name 1s Carl. 7 First name, C-A-R-L; last name 8 S-A-L-A-M-0-N-E. 9 CARL SALAMONE, 10 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 14 Q Mr. Salamone, will you be kind 15 enough to give us your business address. 16 A 444 South River Road, St. George, 17 Utah 84792. 18 Q Are you employed, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q By whom? 21 A SkyWest Airlines. 22 Q In what capacity?
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• 87 1 A I'm a pilot and also a member of a 2 special projects group. 3 Q As a pilot, what are your duties 4 and responsibilities with SkyWest? 5 A The primary duty is for the safe 6 and efficient operation of SkyWest aircraft. 7 Q And you mentioned that you were 8 part of a special program? 9 A Correct. A special projects group 10 where we will address special projects as they 11 would arise for Flight Operations Management. 12 Q For how long have you been 13 employed by SkyWest? 14 A Since January of 2011. 15 Q And how long have you been 16 involved ln this special projects group? 17 A Since December of 2008. 18 Q Other than having a pilot 19 certificate

-- what type of pilot certificate 20 do you have? 21 A I have an airline transport pilot 22 certificate with CL-65 type rating.
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• 88 1 Q 

### And that 1s the Canadair Regional 2 Jet that's used by SkyWest? 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### And other than your aviation 5 education, do you have any other degrees? 6 A 

### Yes. I have a degree in aviation 7 human factors from the University of Illinois 8 and a degree in electrical engineering also 9 from the University of Illinois. 10 Q 

### Were any of these degrees with 11 

### honors or high honors? 12 A 

### Yes. The aviation human factors 13 

### degree was with high honors, and the 14 

### electrical engineer degree was with honors. 15 Q 

### What is your total flight time? 16 A 

### Total flight time, I believe, is 17 

### around 3880 

### hours. 18 Q 

### And how much of that is 1n 19 

### Canadair Regional Jet type aircraft? 20 A 

### If I remember it correctly, it's 21 

### very near 2800 

### hours. 22 Q 

### Other than the ATP, do you have
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• 89 1 any other FAA certificates? 2 A Yes. I have a flight instructor 3 certificate in airplane single and multi 4 engine, 1n instrument airplane, and also have 5 advanced ground instructor and instrument 6 ground instructor certificates. 7 Q Mr. Salamone, what is your 8 involvement in this case? 9 A My involvement has only been to 10 analyze the flights in question and recreate 11 weight and balance scenar1o for these five 12 flights. 13 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 14 approach, Your Honor? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 16 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, I've 17 just placed in front of you what has been 18 marked as Exhibit R-3. What is that? 19 A This is the Weight and Balance 20 Analysis that I authored analyzing the five 21 flights for these three FAA case numbers. 22 Q And you were requested by whom to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 90 1 do this? 2 A By Flight Operations Management. 3 Q And I notice that looking at the 4 and Exhibit R-3 is the report that you 5 actually compiled? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Okay. I notice that the very 8 beginning of page 1 it refers to Revision 2 of 9 this document. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Why was there a revision? 12 A The revision is a result of Flight 13 4451. The initial analysis that I performed 14 was for the Salt Lake City to Casper flight 15 that occurred on February 11th. Upon noticing 16 the error, I redid the analysis for the Flight 17 4451 between Salt Lake City and Casper that 18 occurred on the 15th of February. 19 Q And so could you tell us something 20 about the methodology that you followed in 21 computing the aircraft weight and balance 22 data? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 91 1 A Yes. So what I did to recreate 2 this each scenario for these flights was to 3 look through the dispatch release, the 4 electronic manifest, the Cargo Load Report, 5 and the alleged number of bags that were 6 offloaded from the aircraft. And using that 7 information I used the manual method in our 8 approved weight and balance operation to 9 recreate the flight as the flight crew had 10 calculated their weight andbalance. And then 11 I took the number of bags that were allegedly 12 offloaded and calculated the performance and 13 weight and balance adjustments that would be 14 made if that additional weight had been 15 present. 16 Q In doing this, did you follow the 17 SkyWest Weight and Balance Program? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And the assigned average weights? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q So under the average weights 22 program a standard bag is 30 pounds. Is that
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• 92 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And a plane-side valet bag is 4 what? 5 A That is also 30 pounds. 6 Q And how about a heavy bag? 7 A Heavy bag is 60 pounds. 8 Q Okay. Now, also in the Weight and 9 Balance Program and also in some of the FAA 10 literature a standard bag is designated as a 11 bag that weighs between zero and 50 pounds. 12 Is that correct? 13 A Yes, that's correct. 14 Q And a heavy bag is something that 15 weighs between 51 or slightly over 50 to 16 about 100 pounds. Is that correct? 17 A That is also correct. 18 Q But for purposes of the average 19 weights program, a standard bag is 30 and a 20 heavy bag is 60. Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. And although it's a little
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• 93 1 bit .off yield because the case is involving 2 baggage, under the average weights programthe 3 average passenger is what? 4 A For the summer months the average 5 passenger weight is 190 pounds. In the winter 6 months the average passenger weight is 195 7 pounds. 8 Q Okay. So that average passenger, 9 that's regardless of whether the passenger is 10 a linebacker for the Washington Redskins or a 11 jockey. 12 A Yes, that's correct. 13 Q Whether the passenger is a Sumo 14 wrestler or a ballerina. 15 A Also correct. 16 Q Everybody weighs 190 pounds in the 17 summer and 195 in the winter. 18 A Yes. 19 Q So on this basis, the computation 20 of takeoff weight under the average weights 21 program may not exactly correspond by the 22 pound to the actual weight of the aircraft.
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• 94 1 Is that correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q Did you make a determination as to 4 the aircraft takeoff weights on each of these 5 flights which are the subject in this case -- 6 A I did. 7 Q -- the consolidated cases? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q And what was that determination? 10 A Well, the determination was that 11 for all five flights the aircraft weight and 12 center of gravity location fell within both 13 the manufacturer recommendations or 14 manufacturerrequired area and also within the 15 performance as it hadbeen calculated for each 16 flight. 17 Q And how about center of gravity? 18 A Center of gravity, the weights as 19 reported had they actually been present would 20 have cost a very small shift 1n center of 21 gravity location, all of which still would 22 have remained within the manufacturer's
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• 95 

### 1 envelope. 2 Q 

### Would that have affected aircraft 3 performance? 4 A 

### No, it would not. 5 Q 

### How about with respect to aircraft 6 climb performance, would any deviation from 7 what was offloaded in comparison to the CLRs 8 have changed the aircraft climb performance? 9 A 

### It would not have. 10 Q 

### And how about the aircraft maximum 11 operating altitude? 12 A 

### The maximum operating altitude, 13 any limitation that would have been caused by 14 

### the additional weight would have been 15 recognized by the flight crew and the flight 16 crew would act appropriately, as they are 17 trained to fly at a lower altitude if 18 required. We do plan additional contingency 19 fuel over that which is required for flight to 20 ensure safe operation in this case. 21 Q 

### Let's go to page 3 of your report. 22 

### And this pertains to a Flight No. 6573, Denver NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 96 1 to Hayden, and aircraft November 702 Sierra 2 Kilo. Is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, that, I 5 believe, 1S the flight in Case No. 6 2011-NM-060010, DMS No. FAA-2011-0486. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we're going 8 to do-- what we're going to do for purpose of 9 pagination is the cover sheet which is SkyWest 10 Airlines Weight and Balance Analysis will be 11 zero. Thereafter we'll use the pagination 12 numbers at the bottom of each page 13 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: rather than 15 repaginate. So when you refer to -- 16 MR. DWORKIN: Page 3 of 21. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- 3 of 21, the 18 first paragraph starts out, "The FAA reports." 19 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so the record 21 1s clear, you got that Mr. Harper? 22 MR. HARPER: Yes, sir.
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• 97 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Okay. Now, your 3 understanding of this flight was the FAA had 4 reported three heavy bags that were found on 5 board, and the CLR listed only one heavy bag. 6 Is that correct? 7 A Yes, that is correct. 8 Q Did you actually review that CLR? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And if there were three heavy bags 11 that were found on the aircraft and the CLR 12 listed only one heavy bag, what would have 13 been the maximum weight differential between 14 what the CLR reported and what the aircraft 15 actually carried? 16 A Depends if the additional two 17 heavy bags were counted as standard bags or 18 not counted at all. If they were counted as 19 standard bags and simply not as a heavy bag, 20 the weight would have been a 60-pound 21 deviation. If the two heavy bags had not been 22 counted at all, it would have been 120-pound
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• 98
1 deviation. 2 Q Now, this aircraft involved had a 3 maximum takeoff weight for the particular 4 runway of what? 5 A For the runway of use, the max1mum 6 takeoff weight was 66,582 pounds. 7 Q And would a differential of 8 somewhere between 60 to 100 pounds in baggage 9 weight have had any effect on an aircraft with 10 a max1mum takeoff weight of 66,582 pounds? 11 A No, it would not. 12 Q Let's go to page 5 of 21 of your 13 report, sir. And this pertains to Flight 4659 14 on November 22, 2010. Is that correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, that is 17 FAA Case No. 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. FAA 18 2011-0485. 19 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) The tail number of 20 this aircraft was November 410 SierraWhiskey. 21 Is that correct? 22 A Yes, that 1s correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 99 1 Q And that was Billings to Salt Lake 2 City? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Was your methodology the same with 5 respect to this flight as it was with respect 6 to the prior flight that you just discussed? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And what was the

-- the

-- in that 9 case the CLR reports 38 standard bags and two 10 heavy bags. Is that correct? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q I'm sorry. The FAA reported that 13 was what was offloaded? 14 A Yes. I'm sorry. 15 Q And the CLR listed 40 standard 16 bags. Is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q So what was the result in terms of 19 pounds of additional cargo? 20 A The result would have been 60 21 pounds of additional cargo. 22 Q For a moment let's go back to the
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• 100 1 pr1or flight. What was the actual gross 2 takeoff weight of the aircraft on 6573? 3 A 6573, the flight crew calculated 4 gross takeoff weight was 65,278 pounds. 5 Q Okay. And that is below the 6 certified maximum takeoff weight? 7 A Yes, it 1s. 8 Q Okay. Let's go back to Flight 9 4659. So there would have been a differential 10 of approximately 60 pounds

-- 11 A Correct. 12 Q under the average weights 13 program? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the gross takeoff weight as 16 computed by the flight crew for Flight 4659 17 was what? 18 A 46,358 pounds. 19 Q And what was the certified maximum 20 takeoff weight? 21 A For a CRJ-200 the maximum 22 certified takeoff weight is 53,000 pounds.
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• 101 1 Q So the gross takeoff weight of 2 46,358 even if you added the 60 pounds would 3 still be less than the maximum gross takeoff 4 weight. 5 A Yes. 6 Q So the additional weight observed 7 by the FAA inspectors did or did not exceed 8 the maximum takeoff weight? 9 A It did not exceed the maximum 10 takeoff weight. 11 Q And do you have an opinion as to 12 whether safety of flight was maintained on 13 this flight with respect to aircraft weight 14 and balance. 15 A Yes. I believe safety of flight 16 was maintained at all times. 17 Q Let's go to Flight 6692 of 18 December 14th. This is also part of Case No. 19 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. FAA-2011-0485. This 20 pertains to Flight No. 6692 from Los Angeles 21 to San Diego, does it not, sir? 22 A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 102 1 Q And this was a flight of December 2 14, 2010? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And what aircraft type was used 1n 5 that? 6 A This is also a CRJ-200. 7 Q So that's the 50-seat CRJ. 8 A Correct. 9 Q And you testified earlier that the 10 maximum certifiedgross takeoff weight of that 11 aircraft 1s 53,000 pounds? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And in this case you indicate the 14 FAA reported 19 standard bags and one heavy 15 bag and the CLR indicated 20 standard bags and 16 five heavy bags. Is that correct? 17 A That 1s correct. 18 Q So actually the CLR reported that 19 the aircraft was heavier than it actuallywas. 20 A Yes. 21 Q By

-- I believe you calculated 270 22 pounds?
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• 103 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did the fact that the aircraft was 3 270 pounds lighter have any effect on its 4 ability to perform? 5 A No, it did not. 6 Q Safety of flight was maintained? 7 A At all times. 8 Q The aircraft was still within its 9 maximumcertifiedtakeoffweight andoperating 10 weights? 11 A Yes. 12 Q The aircraft was still within 13 weight and balance? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Let's go to Flight 4800 of the 16 following day, December 15, 2010. That's page 17 9 of 21. 18 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, this is 19 also part of Case No. 2011-NM-060011, DMS No. 20 FAA-2011-485. 21 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) What type of 22 aircraft was utilized on this flight?
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• 104 1 A This was also a CRJ-200. 2 Q Again with a maximum gross weight 3 of 53,000 pounds? 4 A Yes that's correct. 5 Q And in this case the FAA reported 6 43 standardbags, four heavy bags and 12 valet 7 bags onboard the aircraft. The Cargo Load 8 Report listed 59 standard bags, zero heavy 9 bags, and zero valet bags. And according to 10 your report you say that the result was 120 11 pounds of additional cargo located in the aft 12 cargo bin. Is that correct? 13 A That lS correct. 14 Q With this 120 pounds would this 15 aircraft still have been within its takeoff 16 weight parameters? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Would it have been within its 19 operating limitations? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Would it have been within 22 within its takeoff weight limits?
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• 105 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was safety of flight maintained? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Let's go to page 11 of 21 of your 5 report. And this is a flight from Salt Lake to 6 Casper, Flight 4451. 7 MR. DWORKIN: And, Your Honor, 8 that is Case 2011-NM-060033, and DMS No. 9 2011-0680/0779. 10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) This is a flight 11 of February 15, 2011, from Salt Lake to 12 Casper. Is that correct? 13 A Yes, it 1s. 14 Q Okay. And in that case the FAA 15 reported one heavy bag and the Cargo Load 16 Report listed zero heavy bags. Is that 17 correct? 18 A Yes, it is correct. 19 Q So were you able to determine what 20 the weight differential was? 21 A Not exactly, but there's two 22 possibilities. If that heavy bag was counted NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 106 1 as a standard bag, it would result in an 2 additional 30 pounds. If the heavy bag had 3 not been counted at all, it would have been an 4 additional 60 pounds. 5 Q And what type of aircraft was 6 this? 7 A CRJ-200. 8 Q Again with a maximum operating 9 weight of 53,000 pounds? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Would the 30 to 60 pounds have in 12 any way affected the performance of the 13 aircraft? 14 A No, it would not. 15 Q Would the 30 to 60 pounds in any 16 way have affected the center of gravity of the 17 aircraft? 18 A Very small effect on the center of 19 gravity, still well within the manufacturer's 20 envelope. 21 Q And safety of flight would not 22 have been compromised?
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• 107 1 A No, safety of flight would not 2 have been compromised. 3 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, ask that 4 Exhibit R-3 be received. 5 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 6 Honor. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 3 for 8 identification is received into evidence as 9 Respondent's 3. 10 (EXHIBIT NO. R-3 WAS RECEIVED.) 11 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) In terms of your 12 role with the SkyWest flight operation special 13 projects, were you the onlyperson involved in 14 the weight and balance issues? 15 A No. There were two others working 16 together with me. I was the primary author on 17 this document. 18 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we offer 19 Mr. Salamone as an expert in the field of 20 aircraft weight and balance and CG 21 calculationswithrespect to CanadairRegional 22 Jets. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 108 1 MR. HARPER: No objection. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to 3 voir dire? 4 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor, no 5 objection. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. The 7 witness is received as an expert in the field 8 enumerated by Mr. Dworkin. 9 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, ln 10 addition to SkyWest's Weight and Balance 11 Program there's also an FAA advisory circular 12 on average weight programs, is there not? 13 A Yes, there is. 14 Q And under that advisory circular 15

-- I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it's 16 AC120-27E or something like that? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q The reason why do we have 19 average weight programs as opposed to actual 20 weight programs? 21 A I'm not, I don't believe, 22 qualified to answer that program [verbatim] , NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 109 1 why the FAA has that program. It is the 2 program that has been approved for use by 3 SkyWest. 4 Q Well, to actually use actual 5 weight would be a little bit impractical when 6 you're trying to move around a number of 7 people and all their bags within, you know, 8 short flights and 20- to 30-minute turnaround 9 times. Right? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q And as a matter of fact, the 12 advisory circular contemplates that the using 13 actual weights are impractical, and so they 14 allow this average weights program. 15 A Yes. 16 Q And under the AC are there some 17 discrepancies or some tolerance that is 18 permissible? 19 A For carriers that would choose to 20 perform bag surveys, their own, a 2 percent 21 tolerance or 2 percent error is allowable on 22 the bag survey for use of that in place of the
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• 110 1 average bag weight. 2 Q Now. SkyWest uses the average 3 baggage weight. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q In terms of all these 6 discrepancies between the CLRs and the actual 7 weights of the baggage offloaded, were all 8 those discrepancies within that 2 percent 9 figure? 10 A No, they were not. 11 Q Which ones were not within the 2 12 percent figure? 13 A Well, Flight 6573, Denver to 14 Hayden, depending on whether or not the 15 miscounted heavy bags had been included as 16 standard bags. Had they been included in the 17 bag count, it would have fallen inside that 2 18 percent. If they had not been counted at all, 19 they would have fallen outside for Flight 20 6573. 21 Q But as we sit here today, we don't 22 know whether the heavy bags were included as NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 111 1 standard bags or not. 2 A No. There wasn't enough 3 information to make that determination. 4 Q Any others? 5 A The Flight 4659, Billings to Salt 6 Lake City, would have been falling within the 7 2 percent. Flight 6692 1s 270 pounds less. 8 This 1s the flight that the crew calculated 9 heavier than allegedly the actual weight would 10 have been, so this one, yes, it would have 11 fallen inside because the weight was not 12 present. 13 Q Let me ask you something. You've 14 reviewed these flight logs and loadmanifests. 15 For Flight 6692 which was 270 pounds lighter 16 than what the CLR said, did this aircraft 17 just, you know, leap off the ground and exceed 18 its performance capabilities? 19 A I can't speak for the flight crew, 20 but I would assume it would have performed 21 better in all scenarios because it didn't have 22 the weight.
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• 112 1 Q But there's no evidence it leapt 2 off the ground uncontrolled? 3 A No. I would assume that the 4 flight crew would not have been able to tell 5 a difference, that that weight was not 6 present. 7 Q Okay. 8 A The next flight, Flight 4800, LA 9 to San Diego, this one would not have been 10 within the 2 percent. 11 The Flight 4451, Salt Lake City to 12 Casper, with both cases, whether the bag had 13 been counted as a standard bag or not at all, 14 both cases would have fallen inside the 2 15 percent. 16 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 17 approach, Your Honor? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 19 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Mr. Salamone, I'm 20 showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 21 R-4. Can you tell us what this is? 22 A This is a request for an amendment NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 113 1 to the approved Weight and Balance Program 2 that would include a tolerance or variance for 3 small miscounts in nature and small 4 differences between the Cargo Load Report and 5 the aircraft load manifest. 6 Q And what brought this about? 7 A This was an effort to design an 8 error tolerance system with human factors in 9 mind to plan for the cases when human

-- human 10 interaction with the system was not able to 11 keep 100 percent accuracy in the counting for 12 the Cargo Load Report. And the idea is to 13 design a systemthat will maintain operational 14 safety at all times even when there may be a 15 small human factors-related error. 16 Q Did you draft this letter? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, attached to the letter 19 beginning on the second page of of the 20 amendment proposal

-- the secondpage --well, 21 the next page after your letter is a document 22 called "Weight and Balance Program Amendment
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• 114
1 Proposal" dated March 2, 2011. Did you draft 2 this as well? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q And the first paragraph, second 5 sentence says, "This request is designed to 6 address the numerous cargo weight errors that 7 have been identified in recent Letters of 8 Investigation from the SkyWest Certificate 9 Management Office." So basically this letter 10

-- or this amendment was in response to all 11 these cases. 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what specifically was SkyWest 14 asking the FAA for? 15 A Specifically SkyWest was asking 16 for an amendment to our approved Weight and 17 Balance Program that would limit SkyWest 18 aircraft, limit the performance capabilities 19 of that aircraft, by planning ahead for 20 additional weight and small miscounts so that 21 when they should happen we would ensure that 22 safety was maintained at all times. And by
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• 115 1 planning ahead for small errors, small human 2 errors, we could maintain that high degree of 3 safety. 4 Q And you also referenced an FAA 5 Order 9550.88 Human Factors Policy. What is 6 that? 7 A This is the human factors 8 directive. It comes from an FAA order here 9 where it talks about the design of an error 10 tolerance system, and it talks about the human 11 limitations associatedwith-- with, youknow, 12 procedures and processes and how to include 13 human factors into the design of a system. 14 Q And go to the bottom of page 2 of 15 your amendment proposal. Those would have 16 been the tolerances you were requesting. Is 17 that correct? 18 A Yes, that is correct. 19 Q So specifically for the CRJ-200, 20 which is the 50-seat Canadair Regional Jet, 21 you would have asked for a 60-pound or two 22 standard checked bag tolerance. Is that
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• 116 1 correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And for the CRJ-700/900 it was 90 4 pounds. Is that correct? 5 A Yes, that's correct. 6 Q Could you go to page 6? You wrote 7 this. Right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Could you read that paragraph on 10 page 6? 11 A "SkyWest would like to reiterate 12 that the purpose of this program is not to 13 allow for error. It will, however, ensure 14 that operational safety is maintained in any 15 small miscount situations caused by the 16 limitations of human performance. A similar 17 program has already been put into place at 18 Delta Airlines. The SkyWest philosophy has 19 been and remains safety first. With that in 20 mind, it 1s our hope for rapid consideration 21 and approval of this request." 22 Q And then attached to that
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• 117 1 submission is the Human Factors Appendix. Did 2 you draft that? It's page 7. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Pages 7 and 8 specifically. And 5 in the fourth paragraph on page 7 you talk 6 about susceptibility for error. 7 A Yes. 8 Q And

-- 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure that 10 he answered the question about whether he 11 authored it. Did you author it? 12 THE WITNESS: If I remember 13 correctly, I was the primary author on this. 14 However, I don't remember this document as 15 clearly as I do the actual proposal. So I 16 would say with some certainty that, yes, I did 17 author this; however, it's not as familiar. 18 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) And 1n this Human 19 Factors Appendix it talks about the 20 susceptibility for error in the weight and 21 balance process. What do you mean by that? 22 A The weight and balance process is
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• 118 1 -- it has the potential to be very limiting 2 from a human factor standpoint. The aircraft 3 ramp 1s a very difficult work environment. 4 You have noise, vibration, maybe temperature 5 swings, distractions, other as it says 6 here, psychological, social, biological, other 7 factors that could come into play that would 8 alter the human performance and limit the 9 human performance in this situation. 10 Q And in terms of the tolerance that 11 SkyWest was requesting, the 30-, 60-, 90-pound 12 tolerance, was that within the 2 percent 13 margin specified in the advisory circular? 14 A It was very close. The CRJ-200 15 was less than the 2 percent, as specified. 16 The 700 and 900 was slightly greater than. 17 The reason that we went with 90 pounds for the 18 700/900 1s that it made sense with the 19 approved program that is already in place for 20 three bags. And the EMV I don't recall 21 specifically. I would have to go look that one 22 up again. I'm not certified in that aircraft,
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• 119 1 so I don't know the numbers on the top of my 2 head. 3 Q And again on page 8 you mention 4 that DeltaAirlines currentlyuses a 600-pound 5 tolerance. Where do you get that information 6 from? 7 A That information comes from the 8 Delta Airlines Flight Operations Manual. 9 Q And is it your understanding that 10 that 600-pound tolerancepertains to all Delta 11 free types? 12 A That is my understanding. 13 Q From the smallest airplane, which 14 is a DC-9, to the largest airplane, which is 15 a 777? 16 A Yes, that is my understanding. 17 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, for 18 purposes of the next exhibit could we seal the 19 record, because this 1s the Delta Flight 20 Operations Manual which is proprietary to 21 Delta? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objections,
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• 120 1 Mr. Harper? 2 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we're going 4 to do is we're going to go off the record, and 5 before we get back on what we'll do is we'll 6 come back in a sealed session. 7 Now, both attorneys turn around 8 and look at the audience. Anybody there who 9 should not be here? CSO exempt. 10 MR. DWORKIN: Everybody on that 11 side, Your Honor, shouldn't be here. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I figured that. 13 But CSO 1s exempt from this. 14 Mr. Harper, is everybody on your 15 side FAA employee? 16 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, on 18 your side? 19 MR. DWORKIN: Everybody is 20 affiliated with SkyWest except for the 21 gentleman in the back wearing the U.S. 22 Government badge.
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• 121 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And he has a gun 2 so he can stay. 3 MR. DWORKIN: We won't argue with 4 fire power. 5 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 6 into sealed session.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
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• 122 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the record 2 in open session. Remind the witness you're 3 still under oath. 4 MR. DWORKIN: Has R-4 been 5 received, Your Honor? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 7 MR. DWORKIN: R-4? I moved for 8 the admission. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: In open session, 10 Mr. Harper, he's-- Mr. Dworkin has moved for 11 the admission of R-4 which I have paginated 12 with 9 pages, that being the original letter, 13 the cover sheet, and some additional pages. 14 MR. HARPER: I have no objection, 15 Your Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 4 for 17 identification is received into evidence as 18 Respondent's 4. 19 (EXHIBIT NO. R-4 WAS RECEIVED.) 20 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 21 approach, Your Honor? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 123 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 3 Q Mr. Salamone, I've just put in 4 front of you what's been marked for 5 identification as Exhibit R-5. What is this? 6 A This is a follow-up letter to Mr. 7 Ayers in response to a meeting on, I believe, 8 March 3, 2011, to discuss the Weight and 9 Balance Amendment Proposal. 10 Q So that meeting on March 3rd was 11 basically discussing what you previously 12 discussed in Exhibit R-4 the March 2nd letter? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And did you author Exhibit R-5? 15 A I believe I did. As with the 16 previous document, it's not as crystal clear 17 in my memory, but I believe I did author this 18 as well. 19 Q And 1n the third paragraph of 20 Exhibit R-5 you say, 110n average SkyWest 21 handles an estimated 23 million bags per 22 year. 11 Where did you get that number from?
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• 124 1 A I can't recall. 2 Q At the time that you wrote it, did 3 you believe that number to be accurate? 4 A At the time, yes. 5 Q And this letter was basically 6 further supporting your proposal for an 7 amendment to the Weight and Balance Program. 8 Is that correct? 9 A Yes, that's correct. 10 Q In the third paragraph you state 11 beginning with the second sentence, 11The 12 efforts to control risks are ongoing and 13 remain a top priority. While we strive for 14 accuracy, the sheervolume ofmanually-handled 15 items makes it impossible to assure absolute 16 accuracy. 11 What do you mean by that? 17 A By that I meant to state that we 18 are SkyWest as an airline 1s focused on 19 controlling risk and ensuring the safe 20 operation. We strive for accuracy in all 21 cases. It is the ultimate goal. However, the 22 human limitation on the process itself makes NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 125 1 it impossible to ensure 100 percent accuracy. 2 MR. DWORKIN: Ask that R-5 be 3 received. 4 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 5 Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5 for 7 identification is received into evidence as 8 Respondent's 5. 9 (EXHIBIT NO. R-5 WAS RECEIVED.) 10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Did the FAA 11 formally respond to the March 2nd and March 12 4th letters? 13 A Yes, I believe they did. 14 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 15 Honor? 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Showing you what's 18 been marked as Exhibit R-6. What is that? 19 A That is letter to Mr. Chris Brown, 20 Director of Aircraft Operations, from Mr. 21 Ayers, the principal operations inspector. 22 Q And basically

-- for all intents
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• 126 1 and purposes, this basically rejected 2 SkyWest's proposal. Is that correct? 3 A Yes, that's correct. 4 Q Can you turn to paragraph 2 of the 5 letter? And this is written from the

-- from 6 the CMO principal operations inspector. Is 7 that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Paragraph 2 first line, "Current 10 FAA guidance does not address the concept of 11 baggage count or weight tolerances." Is that 12 a true statement? 13 A I can't speak to the FAA guidance 14 regarding that. 15 Q But Delta has a weight tolerance. 16 A Yes, they do. 17 MR. DWORKIN: Ask that R-6 be 18 received. 19 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 20 Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 6 for 22 identification lS received 1n evidence as NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 127 1 Respondent's 6. 2 (EXHIBIT NO. R-6 WAS RECEIVED.) 3 MR. DWORKIN: No further 4 questions, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. HARPER: 8 Q SkyWest does not use bag survey 9 weights, do they? 10 A No, sir. 11 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect based on 13 14 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 15 Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- that question? 17 Pardon me? 18 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you're 20 excused. You're instructed not to discuss 21 your testimony with anybody prior to the 22 conclusion of the hearing. It's up to Counsel
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• 128 1 whether you can remain or whether you're 2 excused. Thank you. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 5 MR. DWORKIN: What time is your 6 conference call, Your Honor? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: We've got 40 8 minutes. 9 MR. DWORKIN: I might as well 10 start with my next witness then. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 12 MR. DWORKIN: May I just have a 13 word with Mr. Salamone? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Let's go 15 off the record for just a minute. We'll take 16 a five-minute recess. 17 (A break was taken from 1:52 to 18 2:01.) 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 20 record. 21 Mr. Dworkin, call your next 22 witness. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 129 1 MR. DWORKIN: Jeremy Barclay, 2 please. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Raise your right 4 hand. 5 (Witness sworn.) 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 7 State your full name and spell your first and 8 last name. 9 THE WITNESS: My name is Jeremy 10 Barclay, J-E-R-E-M-Y, last name, 11 B-A-R-C-L-A-Y. 12 JEREMY BARCLAY, 13 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 17 Q Are you still

-- I'm sorry. Would 18 you please state your office address? 19 A Yes. That's 444 South River Road, 20 St. George, Utah, 84790. 21 Q Are you employed, sir? 22 A Yes, I am. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 130 1 Q And by whom? 2 A SkyWest Airlines. 3 Q For how long have you been 4 employed by SkyWest Airlines? 5 A Just over nine years. 6 Q What is your current position with 7 SkyWest? 8 A My title is director of safety 9 policy and security. 10 Q And what does that entail? 11 A I work within our company safety 12 department, and I oversee the safety policy 13 that interfaces with the operational 14 departments withinour company and also all of 15 the promotion of our safety programs. And I 16 also interface with regulatory agencies such 17 as TSA, FAA, FBI. 18 Q How long have you held that 19 position? 20 A I've been in that position since 21 April of 2011. 22 Q And prior to April of 2011, what
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• 131 1 was your employment with SkyWest? 2 A I was the manager of customer 3 servlce compliance and standards. 4 Q And as such, what were your duties 5 and responsibilities? 6 A My duties were to promote 7 regulatory compliance within the customer 8 service department, including training. Also 9 to investigate and evaluate any potential 10 noncompliance or alleged violations of a 11 regulatory nature. 12 Q And that was -- when did you start 13 ln that position? 14 A I started ln that position in 15 August of 2010. 16 Q And prior to that? 17 A I was the manager of customer 18 service ground operations training. 19 Q And as such, what was -- what were 20 your principal duties and responsibilities? 21 A Principle duties and 22 responsibilities includeddevelopingtraining
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• 132 1 for all of the ground operations, procedures, 2 andpersonnel within SkyWest Airlines and also 3 contract training for our vendors. And so the 4 main focus again I authored our ground 5 operations or station operations manual, 6 disseminated bulletins and communications on 7 updates to customer service ground operations 8 procedures and subsequent training. 9 Q And when did you start 1n that 10 position? 11 A I believe it's March of 2008. 12 Q Okay. And obviously there was 13 employment with SkyWest before March of 2008. 14 What was that? 15 A I worked 1n the customer service 16 ground operations training departments as a 17 ground operations instructor and as a 18 supervisor. 19 Q And as such, what were those 20 duties and responsibilities? 21 A As a ground operations instructor, 22 I was responsible for training, conducting NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 133 1 classroom training and on-the-job training in 2 both SkyWest locations and in our contract 3 locations. 4 Q And how about your civilian 5 education, do you have any degrees subsequent 6 to rece1v1ng a high school diploma? 7 A I do. I have an undergraduate 8 bachelor of arts from Westminster College in 9 aviationmanagement and a master's of business 10 from Westminster College. 11 Q Now, SkyWest has a Weight and 12 Balance Program, does it not? 13 A It does. 14 Q And that 1s also known as Standard 15 Practice 4100? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And is that an FAA approved 18 document? 19 A It is. 20 Q And under the Weight and Balance 21 Programheavy checkedbags are defined as bags 22 weighing over 50 but less than 100 pounds. Is
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• 134 1 that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And under the average weights 4 program they're assigned a weight of 60 5 pounds. Correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Standard bags are in what weight 8 range? 9 A Anything zero to 50 pounds. 10 Q And under the average weights 11 program what are they assigned? 12 A Thirty average weight. 13 Q And the plane-side valet bags

-- 14 first of all, tell us what a plane-side valet 15 bag 1s. 16 A A plane-side valet bag is

-- it's 17 basically a bag that has passed through 18 security 1n the terminal. It may be an 19 oversized bag that would not normally fit on 20 the aircraft itself in the passenger cabin and 21 so it's checked plane-side and given to the 22 agents to load in the cargo bin. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 135 1 Q That's also assigned 30 pounds. 2 A Correct. 3 Q Okay. So actually for purposes of 4 the Cargo Load Report, the cargo load report 5 specifies heavy checked bags, plane-side 6 valet, and standard bags. Is that correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And really whether something is a 9 plane-side valet bag or a standard bag it 10 really doesn't make any difference because 11 they're all 30 pounds. 12 A Correct. 13 Q And they all end up in the same 14 place on the airplane. 15 A Correct. 16 Q Now, the 4100 also governs the 17 preparation of the CLR. Is that correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And the CLR is produced 1n 20 duplicate, is it not? 21 A It is. 22 Q And what happens to those
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• 136 1 duplicate

-- well, first of all, who prepares 2 the CLR? 3 A A designated loading agent or a 4 ramp agent assigned to load the aircraft will 5 prepare the cargo loadreport after conducting 6 a baggage count and cargo weight count. 7 Q Okay. And the designated loading 8 agent, is this a relatively new position? 9 A We've had a designated loading 10 agent 1n our Weight and Balance Program for 11 quite some time, ever since I've known. 12 Q And you've been involved with the 13 Weight and Balance Program for how long? 14 A Since March of 2008. 15 Q If a valet bag basically to 16 g1ve the bag to the valet, you drop it off 17 plane-side. The passenger drops it off 18 plane-side or on the jetway and the loading 19 agent grabs it and puts it 1n aircraft. 20 Correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Let's say the passenger at the
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• 137 1 last minute decided, you know, I don't want to 2 give my bag to him. I want to try to squeeze 3 it in the overhead bin and passenger takes 4 back the valet bag and puts it in the overhead 5 bin. Then that 30-pound bag becomes a 6 16-pound bag. Right? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Because personal items carried on 9 board the aircraft only weigh 16 pounds. 10 A Correct. 11 Q So with all this average weight 12 stuff, what we have is just simply an 13 approximation. 14 A Correct. 15 Q Let's go through, for the Court's 16 edification, the check-in process and the 17 cargo loading process from the start. 18 Passenger arrives at the terminal with a bag. 19 He goes either to the skycap or to the 20 check-in counter. And the check-in counter 21 could be manned by SkyWest personnel or it 22 could be manned by United personnel or Delta
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• 138 1 personnel. 2 MR. HARPER: Objection. Counsel's 3 testifying. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ask a question. 5 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) How many different 6 airlines does SkyWest associate with and 7 provide regional serv1ce for? 8 A Currently we've got four, with a 9 fifth coming. 10 Q Okay. And the four are? 11 A United Airlines, Delta Airlines, 12 Alaska Airlines, and U.S. Airways. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: At this point if 14 we're going to talk about a fifth, Mr. 15 Emerson, 1s that proprietary information? 16 MR. EMERSON: No. It's announced. 17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) The fifth being? 18 A American Airlines. 19 Q And so when a passenger goes to 20 check-in, that passenger may not necessarily 21 be checking inwith a SkyWest customer service 22 agent, could be an employee of one of the
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• 139 1 other carriers. Correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And if it is a heavy bag, it is 4 incumbent upon whomever the bag is being 5 checkedwith, thatparticularcustomer service 6 agent or person, to identify it as a heavy 7 bag. Is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 MR. HARPER: Objection. Leading. 10 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) And how do they 11 identify it as a heavy bag? 12 A They' 11 put it on a scale and 13 weigh it. If it weighs over 50 pounds, 14 they'11 attach a heavybaggage tag to it which 15 is usually an orange color. 16 Q As a matter of fact, in Exhibit

-- 17 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 18 Honor? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Let me show you 21 Exhibit C-2. This 1s the FAA's exhibit. Is 22
-- that orange tag, is that the heavy bag tag? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 140 1 A It 1s for Delta. 2 Q And that's the Delta tag? 3 A Correct. 4 Q So after the customer service 5 agent takes the bag, then what happens to the 6 bag? 7 A It goes into a baggage room or 8 baggage transfer area where it's sorted by 9 flight and placed onto a baggage cart for 10 delivery plane-side. 11 Q And then from the baggage cart to 12 the airplane, how does it get on the airplane? 13 A A designated loading agent will 14 place the baggage usually on a belt loader up 15 to a loading agent within the cargo bin. 16 Q So there's generally two people 17 per aircraft to load. 18 A In general, yes. 19 Q And one of those two people 20 prepares the CLR. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And which of the two people lS NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 141 1 counting bags? 2 A The designated loading agent we've 3 we've assigned to be at the belt loader 4 counting, so usually they would be the one 5 that is doing that. However, there is some 6 flexibility for the designated loading agent 7 to be in the cargo bin as well. So wherever 8 they're at, that's where they conduct the 9 count. 10 Q How do they count the bags? 11 A They'll do it just manually 12 through memory, is what we require currently. 13 Q Now, are there also some 14 technological aids such as light guns and 15 scanners? 16 A There are. There are scanners, 17 baggage scanners. 18 Q And does it depend upon which 19 codeshareyou'reoperatingtowhichprocedures 20 you use? 21 A It does. 22 Q So, for instance, if you're
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• 142 1 operating for United you would

-- would you 2 use the United scanner? 3 A You would. 4 Q As opposed to Delta you would use 5 a Delta scanner? 6 A Correct. 7 Q And does the scanner have the 8 capability of counting heavy bags? 9 A It doesn't with an initial scan. 10 It's a manual entry that requires the loading 11 agent to stop and manually input the weight of 12 the bag itself as a heavy bag. 13 Q And do the plane-side valet bags 14 undergo the scanning? 15 A They do not. 16 Q So in other words, for plane-side 17 valet it's a manual count or counting on the 18 fingers or memory. 19 A Correct. 20 Q And for and even though the 21 checked bags may be scanned, in terms of how 22 you account for the heavy bags it's basically
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• 143 1 memory or counting on the fingers. 2 A Correct. 3 Q Has SkyWest looked into any other 4 possibilities that might be out there or a 5 means by which heavy bags can be more 6 accurately counted? 7 A We have. We've approached our 8 major partners, Delta and United Airlines, to 9 upgrade their scanner equipment so that it 10 might eventually be used to track heavy 11 baggage so as to not interrupt the efficiency 12 of the operation. And that to date has not 13 happened. 14 Q So the designated loading agent or 15 the other ramp agent compiles the Cargo Load 16 Report. 17 A Correct. 18 Q It's a handwritten it's a 19 handwritten form. You just enter the number 20 of bags. 21 A Correct. 22 Q And that's prepared in duplicate.
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• 144 1 Is that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And what happens to the 4 duplicates? 5 A The pilot in command is given one 6 copy of the Cargo Load Report, and on average 7 it's seven minutes pr1or to departure. And 8 then a copy is maintained at the stationuntil 9 the end of the operating day when it's 10 discarded. 11 Q So at least from a station 12 operational standpoint, this is a record 13 that's not required to be kept or maintained 14 beyond the end of the day. 15 A Correct. 16 Q Okay. And 1n terms of the pilot 17 personnel, they're given the CLR. And what 18 are they expected to do with the CLR? 19 A They use the information from the 20 Cargo Load Report to input their data 21 electronically, and then they discard the CLR 22 when that's been completed.
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• 145 1 Q Okay. So once -- and they use the 2 weights 1n the CLR

-- or the number of bags 3 times the weights on the average weights 4 program. They compute the weight. They enter 5 that into the computer, the black box that 6 computes the loadmanifest, and that's the end 7 of the CLR. 8 A Correct. 9 Q They don't have to retain it. 10 A Correct. 11 Q Now, oftentimes because of the 12 nature of the regional airline business there 13 are some very, very quick turnarounds, are 14 there not? 15 A There are. 16 Q And by turnaround I mean, you 17 know, from the time the aircraft lands, it's 18 unloaded, reloaded, and takes off again. 19 A Correct. 20 Q Is that your understanding of what 21 the term "turnaround" means? 22 A Yes, that's my understanding.
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• 146 1 Q And also by virtue of the 2 codeshare and the partnerships you have with 3 var1ous major carriers, there are 1n many 4 cases bags of arrivals and departures, 5 everything happening all at the same time. 6 Correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q So at any one time on the ramp 9 there's a lot of activity. 10 A There can be, yes. 11 Q So if somebody is attempting to 12 make a connection and the incoming flight is 13 late, it creates a problem vis-a-vis the 14 preparation of the CLR. 15 MR. HARPER: Objection. Calls for 16 speculation. 17 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Are there 18 situations 1n which passengers are running 19 late or they may have almost have missed a 20 connection ormay have missed a connection and 21 they're trying to get on the next flight? 22 A Yes, there are. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 147 1 Q 

### So there are situations where 2 there are last minute changes? 3 A 

### Yes, there are. 4 Q 

### And the CLR is given to the flight 5 crew seven minutes before the departure. Is 6 that correct? 7 A 

### That's correct. 8 Q 

### What happens when there's last 9 minute changes, a passenger shows up with a 10 

### bag within that seven-minute window after the 11 

### CLR is given to the flight crew? 12 A 

### The designated loading agent will 13 

### work as quickly and efficiently as they can to 14 

### retrieve the baggage, make adjustments to the 15 

### Cargo Load Report, communicate to the pilot in 16 

### command. Prior to making to adding 17 

### additional baggage they have to rece1ve 18 

### approval from the pilot in command to do so. 19 Q 

### Are there ever any situations in 20 which the extra bag can be loaded with the 21 

### flight crew's permission without actually 22 physically amending the CLR? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 148 1 A Yes. They can do that via radio. 2 If the main cabin door has been closed, they 3 can communicate that verbally to the flight 4 crew through a headset. 5 Q Okay. So under those 6 circumstances what is contained on the CLR may 7 not necessarilybe what's in the cargo section 8 of the airplane. 9 A There's potential for that, yes. 10 Q How about a situation where 11 somebody chooses to lug their big bag onto the 12 airplane trying to squeeze it into the 13 overhead bin, they can't succeed, the CLR has 14 already been prepared? What do you do with 15 the bag? 16 A The flight attendant will usually 17 wave over a ramp agent to retrieve the bag and 18 load it in the cargo hold. At that point we 19 go through the same process of communicating 20 with the pilot in command and amending our 21 Cargo Load Report. 22 Q But 1n some cases it may be NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 149 1 depending upon time, it may be just 2 communication with the flight deck and not 3 necessarily physically amending the CLR. 4 A Correct. 5 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, I'm 6 about to go on to another subject, so if you 7 have a conference call in five minutes, this 8 would probably be a good time to break. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I've got 10 2:21. 11 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. I have 12 2:25. I guess I'm running fast. Okay. 13 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) During the period 14 of 2009 through 2011, and you were in ground 15 ops training and then became manager of CS 16 compliance and standards, did the issue of 17 discrepancies between what was contained on 18 the CLRs and the number of bags that were 19 physically on board the aircraft

-- did those 20 1ssues arise? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And was this simply within the
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• 150 

### 1 company that the issues arose, or was it with 2 other entities? 3 A 

### Other entities were involved as 4 well. 5 Q 

### Who were the other entities? 6 A 

### To cite just examples of who that 7 would be would be Delta Airlines, United 8 Airlines, Delta Global Services, Regional 9 

### Elite Airline Services. There are several 10 vendors in the airlines that ground handle as 11 well and unload aircraft. 12 Q 

### And these entities that provide 13 the ground handling why is that

-- why doesn't 14 SkyWest do it themselves? 15 A 

### We bid on contracts through our 16 maJor partners, and so based on costs, the 17 request for proposals that we submit to the 18 main line partners, they award a contract to 19 

### a ground handling vendor. A lot of it is 20 based upon costs. 21 Q 

### In other words, in many cases the 22 codesharing partner, usually the major
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• 151 1 carrier, the codeshare, will dictate to you 2 who lS going to provide ground services. 3 A Correct. 4 Q And how did these

-- the issue of 5 these discrepancies surface? 6 A How did they surface? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Twofold: SkyWest has internal 9 surveillance, you know, where we measure the 10 process of aircraft loading, and in addition 11 the FAA has provided some allegations 12 regarding the process as well. 13 Q And were you involved in 14 discussions with the FAA concerning these 15 matters? 16 A I was. 17 Q And to the best of your 18 understanding, what were the FAA's concerns? 19 A Initially the FAA was concerned 20 about agents accounting for the heavy tagged 21 baggage. That's where the initial 22 surveillance came from and call for concern NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 152 1 and their request for us to revisit that 2 process and evaluate it. 3 Q And did SkyWest do that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q As a result of that revisiting, 6 did SkyWest undertake certain actions? 7 A Yes, we did. 8 Q What types of actions did SkyWest 9 undertake? 10 A We first of all evaluated the 11 loading process itself looking for 12 opportunities to provide additional risk 13 controls into the process to achieve the 14 objective of an accurate flight load, so we 15 revised our aircraft loading procedures. We 16 also placed greater emphasis on this process 17 1n the training by allotting additional 18 training time within our new-hire classes and 19 in our certified station trainer conferences 20 that we hold annually. 21 Q How did SkyWest revise its loading 22 procedures?
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• 153 

### 1 A 

### We went through a process where we 2 deployed some of our training specialists and 3 other subject matter experts with the weight 4 and balance process to select locations to 5 observe the process and to provide an 6 assessment back to myself for revision of the 7 procedure, and we added additional risk 8 controls into that procedure. 9 Q 

### And with respect to training, 10 what, if anything, did SkyWest do vis-a-vis 11 training? 12 A 

### Like I had mentioned, we took a 13 look at our initial new-hire training, our 14 classroom training, andwe doubled the time of 15 that training putting our frontline agents 16 

### through additional exercises that would 17 reemphasize the importance of an accurate 18 flight load. 19 We also with our certified station 20 trainers conducted case scenarios that lasted 21 the better part of a full eight-hour day 22 pointing out areas where we could have
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• 154 1 

### potentialnoncomplianceorpotential for error 2 in the process. In so doing, we -- you know, 3 our hope and desire was to make sure that they 4 understood all of the areas where they could 5 have a potential discrepancy and to act 6 accordingly in their station and create the 7 process and oversee the process locally. 8 Q 

### In terms of customer service 9 training, was this a one-shot deal or was -- 10 was there training given on a periodic basis? 11 A 

### There was training given on a 12 

### periodic basis. You know, initially when an 13 

### agent comes in, they receive extensive 14 training and on-the-job training for this 15 

### process. Each year during the months of 16 August and September we do a recurrent 17 

### training which involves computer base 18 training. Prior to that we also bring in all 19 of our certified station trainers to do an 20 instructor-ledworkshop or multiple workshops. 21 Q 

### And these workshops have addressed 22 the CLR discrepancy issue?
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• 155 1 A Yes. 2 Q And with respect to this training, 3 did the FAA participate? 4 A They did. 5 Q And who specifically was it, the 6 Salt Lake SkyWest CMO? 7 A Yes, it was the CMO. 8 Q And did they simply attend or did 9 they actually participate in the training? 10 A They attended and observed the 11 training. And we also have thempresent during 12 our conferences as well. 13 Q Had anybody from the FAA ever 14 indicated to SkyWest, to your knowledge, that 15 the training that you were giving to your 16 customer service people vis-a-vis the 17 preparation of Cargo Load Reports and the 18 loading of aircraft wasn't adequate? 19 A No. I would say the opposite. 20 Q Did anybody from the FAA ever say 21 that your Weight and Balance Program or your 22 cargo loading procedures

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• 156 1 SkyWest's Weight andBalance Programand cargo 2 loading procedures were in any way deficient 3 or inadequate? 4 A No. Obviously they're focused on 5 the objective. So we actually collaborated 6 back and forth on that procedure, and they 7 understood it. 8 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I believe 9 it' s now 2 : 30. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. 11 MR. HARPER: I believe it's now 12 2:30. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're just trying 14 to break his train of thought. 15 MR. DWORKIN: Actually this would 16 be as good a time as any. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 18 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 19 with anyone. We're going to take a recess. 20 I'm not sure how long the call is going to 21 take. I'm going to try to keep it under 15 22 minutes. So we'll go off the record.
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• 157 1 (A break was taken from 2 : 2 9 to 2 2:51.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 4 record. 5 Remind the witness you're still 6 under oath. 7 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Okay. Mr. 8 Barclay. 9 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 10 Honor? 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Thank you. 12 MR. DWORKIN: That's a copy of 13 R-8. 14 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'd like to show 15 you what I have marked as Exhibit R-8. Would 16 you tell us what that is, sir? 17 A This 1s a list of weight and 18 balance corrective actions that have been 19 taken from July 2009 through December 2011. 20 Q And

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• 158 1 you want to seal this? 2 MR. DWORKIN: There's no need to, 3 Your Honor, because the witness will testify 4 he already presented it to the FAA. They 5 already have it. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 7 problem with it Mr. Harper? 8 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. It 9 was provided to me, but it was provided as 10 part of the under the sealed, the 11 confidential order, so I assume that was 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 13 record. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 16 into sealed session.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 159 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 2 record. This 1s open session. 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 5 Q Mr. Barclay, would it be fair to 6 say that with respect to SkyWest's 7 investigation of the matters which are the 8 subject of this proceeding today that you were 9 the principal customer service investigator? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In the course of your 12 investigation, did you attempt to ascertain 13 the identities of the people who were 14 responsible for loading each of these flights 15 for which the alleged inaccurate CLRs were 16 produced? 17 A Yes, through their station 18 managers. 19 Q And you were in fact able to 20 identify them? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Had any of these employees ever NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 160 1 had any previous episodes of problems in 2 completing CLRs? 3 A Not to my knowledge. 4 Q And what was done with these 5 employees? 6 A Initiallyjust some questioning to 7 find out what happened in the process from 8 their vantage point, No. 1, to determine if 9 the allegations were in fact accurate. And 10 then from there once we received a statement 11 from them based on what happened, providing 12 response to FAA, and additional trainingwould 13 always take place. If we found an employee 14 was not following the policy or procedure at 15 times they would receive step corrective 16 action from their manager in the form of 17 discipline. But usually we took the training 18 approach. 19 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 20 questions. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 22 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 161 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect based 2 on the no cross? 3 MR. DWORKIN: Nothing, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Always wanted to 5 say that. 6 Any further need of this witness? 7 MR. DWORKIN: No. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 9 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you are 11 excused. I'm going to instruct you not to 12 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 13 the conclusion of the hearing. You're excused 14 from the court. It's up to Counsel whether 15 you want to -- whether you're free to remain 16 in the courtroom or not. You may step down. 17 Counsel? 18 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just as reminder, 20 we need to conclude at 4:30, so adjust your 21 thinking accordingly. As I toldMr. Harper, in 22 the past I used to practice in front of a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 162 1 judge who was -- the big hand hit the 12 at 2 12:00, he walked off the bench and you could 3 be mid word. 4 Ma'am, if you'll approach the 5 witness stand. 6 MR. DWORKIN: Actually I wanted 7 Aaron first. 8 Maggi, a stay of execution. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to remind 10 you, I'm not sure what courtroom we're going 11 to be in tomorrow. CSOs are always a good 12 source of information so check with them. 13 MR. DWORKIN: There is a good 14 chance that unless there is some rebuttal from 15 the FAA we will finish today. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: What do you think 17 all those witnesses in the back are? 18 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, do you want 20 to approach the witness stand? 21 (Witness sworn.) 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 163 1 State your name for the record and spell your 2 first and last name. 3 THE WITNESS: Aaron Williams, 4 A-A-R-0-N, W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Your 6 last name again, please. 7 THE WITNESS: Williams, 8 W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: MR. Dworkin, since 10 we're going to have another attorney, have him 11 identify himself for the record. 12 MR. VAN GEFFEN: John Van Geffen 13 from Michael Dworkin and Associates. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell your last 15 name, please. 16 MR. VAN GEFFEN: V-A-N, G-E-F-F, 17 like French fry, E-N. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 19 AARON WILLIAMS, 20 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 21 was examined and testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
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• 164 1 BY MR. VAN GEFFEN: 2 Q Mr. Williams, what is your current 3 position with SkyWest? 4 A Manager, customer service 5 department, compliance and standards. 6 Q How long have you been in that 7 position? 8 A May 2011. 9 Q What 1s your aviation experience? 10 A I began with SkyWest Airlines in 11 2005 in Salt Lake City as a ramp agent. I was 12 a ramp trainer shortly thereafter. I did that 13 for approximately a year, at which point I was 14 hired by corporate training as a ramp 15 instructor, moved on to ramp supervisor, 16 compliance and standards supervisor, and 17 eventually manager. 18 Q Your experience as a ramp agent, 19 did you handle much aircraft loading in terms 20 of baggage? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you ever lose count?
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• 165 

### 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Your current job duties, does that 3 involve a lot of reviewing the SkyWest 4 training and what's involved in keeping ramp 5 agents up to date with what their requirements 6 are? 7 A 

### More policy than training, yes. 8 Q 

### When you say "policy," what is 9 SkyWest's policy towards training? 10 A 

### We ensure all agents who are 11 loading aircraft areproperlytrainedandhave 12 received training with respect to how our 13 manual states aircraft are to be loaded. 14 Q 

### Are you very familiar with the 15 current FAA enforcement action this case is 16 involved with? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### What is your current job in terms 19 of ensuring compliance to make sure that ramp 20 agents, the designated loading agents, get an 21 accurate count when they're loading baggage? 22 A 

### Can you ask that again?
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• 166 1 Q Your position in terms of 2 training, are you involved with the CS 3 conference that SkyWest puts on? 4 A Yes. I've been involved 1n 5 conference for several years. 6 Q Is the purpose of this conference 7 to train ramp agents, designated loading 8 agents, on theprocedure involvedwith loading 9 aircraft? 10 A The conference itself is to train 11 the trainers to go back and then instruct the 12 frontline agents. 13 Q How long has SkyWest been 14 conducting these conferences? 15 A My involvement with them began in 16 2006. I attended as a trainer. How long 17 prior to that they were being conducted I 18 don't know for sure. 19 Q Have they done a 2012 

## cs 20 conference? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Aircraft loading and baggage
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• 167 1 counting, 1s that one of the aspects that's 2 currently taught during these conferences? 3 A Yes, aircraft loading procedures 4 were reviewed at that conference. 5 Q Have there been constant additions 6 to these CS conference and the training 7 regarding the baggage counting andCLR filling 8 out in your time with SkyWest? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Have you found that all these 11 additions have helped the agents in terms of 12 compliance in filling out the CLR properly? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you believe that there's 15 anything that SkyWest coulddo additionallyto 16 mitigate the human factors involved in 17 accidently miscounting baggage? 18 A Not according to my expertise, no. 19 MR. VAN GEFFEN: That's all. 20 Thank you. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 22 MR. HARPER: None, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 168 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further? 2 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 3 Honor. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you may step 5 down. I'm going to instruct you not to 6 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 7 the conclusionof the hearing. You're excused. 8 Stand and raise your right hand. 9 (Witness sworn.) 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 11 State your name for the record and spell your 12 first and last name. 13 THE WITNESS: Maggi, M-A-G-G-I, 14 Aiken, A-I-K-E-N. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 16 MAGGI AIKEN, 17 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 18 was examined and testified as follows: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. DWORKIN: 21 Q Could you please give us your 22 business address.
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• 169 1 A 444 South River Road, St. George, 2 Utah. 3 Q And what is your employment? 4 A I am director of customer serv1ce 5 training and standards for SkyWest. 6 Q And as director of customer 7 serv1ce training and standards, what are your 8 principal duties and responsibilities? 9 A I am responsible for the training 10 of our ground service personnel, for 11 responding to regulatory issues 1n items such 12 as LOis, so forth. 13 Q How long have you held this 14 position? 15 A I've been in this position since 16 around '87, I believe. 17 Q And prior to this position were 18 you with SkyWest? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In what capacities? 21 A I was an instructor and also a 22 station manager. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 170 1 Q And can you tell us something 2 about your education? 3 A My undergrad is 1n education, and 4 my master's is inbusiness aviation aerospace. 5 Q Any other specialized training 6 that you've undergone? 7 A Yes. I've been to various 8 courses, regulatory

-- I think it's JDA. I 9 don't remember all the names of the courses. 10 I believe they're on my resume. 11 Q Is that the JDA regulatory 12 affairs? 13 A Right. 14 Q Have you also attended the FAA 15 systems safety courses? 16 A I have. 17 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 18 Honor? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 20 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) I'm showing you 21 some documents which have all been put 22 together as Exhibit R-15. And this exhibit
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• 171 1 should consist of three SkyWest letters: 2 December 21, 2010, March 9, 2011, December 14, 3 2010. Is that what you have in front of you? 4 A Yes. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to keep 6 your vo1ce up. 7 Q (By MR. DWORKIN) Can you identify 8 the signature on each of the three letters? 9 A Yes. They're mine. 10 Q So it would be fair to say that 11 you had authored all these letters and had 12 signed them and sent them off to the FAA? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And these are SkyWest's responses 15 to the Letters of Investigation 1n these 16 cases. Is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q In the

-- each of these letters it 19 talks about SkyWest's own review of the-- of 20 the allegations and corrective action that 21 SkyWest 1s taking. Is that correct? 22 A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 172 1 Q The investigation was done at your 2 direction. Is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And the corrective actions were 5 implemented at your direction? 6 A That 1s what we instructed to be 7 taken care of and what the stations had agreed 8 to do. 9 Q And to the best of your knowledge, 10 were all the corrective actions that you have 11 identified in your three Letters of 12 Investigation been incorporated and been 13 performed? 14 A To the best of my knowledge. 15 Q As someone who's been employed as 16 director of customer service training for 17 SkyWest for the past 25 years, does SkyWest 18 have a policy with respect to training or 19 importance of the training? 20 A Customer service has our 21 department and even starting with the CPO at 22 the time was very much training

-- proactive
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• 173 1 with training. This was the expectation that 2 we train and be one of the best in the 3 industry. And that was what I carried out in 4 our department. 5 Q Have 1n the course of your 6 fulfillment of your duties, have you had 7 occasion to compare notes with your 8 counterparts at other airlines? 9 A I have. And where I could pick up 10 best practices, we did that. We've had 11 students that have come through class that 12 have complimented us on our training, that 13 they felt it was better than anything that 14 they had received with any of the other 15 carriers they had been with. 16 Q And does SkyWest have a policy, to 17 your knowledge, concerning FAA compliance? 18 A We

-- that is at the top of our 19 list, to follow the regulations and to set a 20 good example and to be compliant. 21 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 22 questions, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 174 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 2 MR. HARPER: No cross, Your Honor. 3 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ma'am, I'm going 5 to instruct you not to discuss your testimony 6 with anybody prior to the conclusion of this 7 hearing. You're free to step down. You're 8 excused from the court. 9 MR. DWORKIN: Ask that R-15 be 10 received. 11 And with that, we will rest. 12 MR. HARPER: No objection to R-15, 13 Your Honor. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 15 15 for identification is received into evidence 16 as Respondent's 15. 17 (EXHIBIT NO. R-15 WAS RECEIVED.) 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. At 19 that point, Mr. Dworkin? 20 MR. DWORKIN: Pardon me? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have just to 22 be clear, Mr. Harper, I think I'm going over NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 175 1 your exhibits. At this point I have seven 2 exhibits identified. Exhibits 1 and 2 were 3 entered. I don 1t show that any other exhibits 4 were offered. 5 Mr. Dworkin/ I have exhibits 6 identified as 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 and 8 all of 7 which were entered. I have 10 and 11 which 8 were introduced into evidence and 15 which was 9 introduced into evidence. And that 1 S all the 10 exhibits I have for you. 11 MR. DWORKIN: That 1 S correct. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct/ 13 Mr. Harper? 14 MR. HARPER: 15 sure that matches my records I have C-1 16 through C-3 were admitted as evidence. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. 

### You 1

### re 18 right 1 3 was admitted. 19 MR. HARPER: 20 Honor? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: You 1re correct. 22 That 1 s why I do this. Three was admitted.
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• 176 1 MR. HARPER: I have C-4 through 2 C-6 Your Honor took judicial notice of 3 earlier. We had 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, C-4 is the 5 weight and balance control. I don't recall 6 that I took judicial notice. I don't know 7 that it was offered. 8 MR. HARPER: The Weight and 9 Balance Handbook, sir, was subject of a 10 pretrial motion for judicial notice. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 MR. HARPER: And C-4, C-5, and C-6 13 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: So 4 we took 15 judicial notice. I don't have the whole file 16 with me. That's why. 17 MR. HARPER: C-100 and C-101 were 18 not admitted. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back to 20 C-6. Was that subject to the motion? 21 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that correct, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 177 1 Mr. Dworkin, that you recall, we tookjudicial 2 notice of C-6? 3 MR. DWORKIN: Judicial notice of 4 C-6, that 1s correct. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, Mr. Harper, 6 with respect to C7. 7 MR. HARPER: C7 has not been 8 admitted or offered. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then I have

-- 10 okay. I have C-100 and C-101 marked for 11 identification 12 MR. HARPER: That's correct, Your 13 Honor. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: but not 15 received. I have C-102 that I received. I 16 have Complainant's 103 which I've received as 17 Complainant's 103. 18 MR. HARPER: That's my 19 understanding, s1r. 20 On the Respondent's exhibits, I 21 agree with your recollection of what's been 22 admitted, excluding

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• 178 1 Respondent's 3. I do not believe that was 2 admitted into evidence. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's the Weight 4 and Balance Analysis. That was moved into 5 evidence during one gentleman's testimony. I 6 think it was received. I've got marked as 7 received into evidence. 8 MR. HARPER: My understanding is 9 he testified to some of the contents, but the 10 exhibit itself was not introduced. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we'll have 12 to find the record and check because I show it 13 was admitted in my notes. 14 MR. HARPER: In the event it was 15 not admitted, I would like to move it as part 16 of my rebuttal case into evidence. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, then, good 18 news 1s it's admitted. 19 MR. HARPER: All right, sir. 20 Thank you. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: So what I have, 22 just to reiterate. For the Agency I have NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 179 1 Exhibits 1, 2, and 3 are admitted. Exhibits 2 4, 5, 6 were taken judicial notice. Exhibits 3 7 was not offered. Is that correct? 4 MR. HARPER: That's correct, Your 5 Honor. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Then we have 7 Exhibit 100 and 101 were not offered. 8 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit 102 and 10 103 were admitted. 11 MR. HARPER: That's my 12 understanding, sir. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 14 MR. DWORKIN: That's my 15 understanding as well. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 17 MR. DWORKIN: That's my 18 understanding as well. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 20 Dworkin, I have no Exhibit 1 or 2. 21 MR. DWORKIN: Correct. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have Exhibits 3,
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• 180 1 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 were all admitted. Ten-- there 2 is no 9. Ten and eleven were admitted and 15 3 was admitted. So just to reiterate, Mr. 4 Dworkin, I have no Exhibits 1, 2, 9, 12, 13, 5 14. 6 MR. DWORKIN: That's correct, Your 7 Honor. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Did I 9 understand that concludes your case in chief, 10 Mr. Dworkin? 11 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, it does. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Rebuttal? 13 MR. HARPER: No rebuttal, Your 14 Honor. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 16 from either party? 17 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 18 MR. DWORKIN: Nothing from 19 Respondent, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. As I've 21 said twice, I will wait for the transcript. 22 The two of you will discuss a briefing
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• 181 1 schedule. I'll get the exhibits back. Make 2

-- Mr. Harper, just double-check on behalf of 3 yourself and Mr. Dworkin in a couple days to 4 make sure that the sealed exhibits don't 5 inadvertentlyget in the record. Ms. Matthews 6 1s extraordinarily conscientious in that, but 7 it never hurts to double-check. And if it 8 happens, give her or Mr. Liebowitz a call. We 9 can get them pulled down very quickly. 10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, if we can 11 just take a moment just to make sure we have 12 a common understanding of what's sealed and 13 what's not. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. I sealed 15 Exhibits 7, 8, 10 and 11. 16 MR. DWORKIN: That's correct. 17 MR. HARPER: I would agree with 18 that, s1r. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, if the 20 two of you after you leave here have concerns 21 about other exhibits, feel free to bring it to 22 my attention. I have no problem sealing
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• 182 1 information. 2 3 matters? 4 5 6 gentlemen. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 All right. Does that conclude the

MR. DWORKIN: Yes. JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you,

It's been a pleasure. And we'll go off the record.

(End of proceedings at 3:39p.m.)

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## cs149:15 166:2,19 32:7 143:12 165:5 cooperative24:1 correctly84:3 53:6 159:11 173:5 167:6 dated114:1 coordinate75:11 88:20 117:13 courses170:8,9,15 

## cso120:9,13 dates21:1 

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• 204 C E R T I F I C A T E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines
Before: US DOT/FAA
Date: 10-02-12
Place: Salt Lake City, UT

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com