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CUAC/CWAF ASRAC Working Group Meeting

 - - -

 Wednesday, May 20, 2015

 - - -

 Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building

 Room 8E-089

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20585
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1 APPEARANCES:

2 EILEEN BARKAS HOFFMAN

3 EDWARD D. BANTLE

4 JOHN CYMBALSKY

5 ERIC STAS

6 JEREMIAH FREEMAN

7 GREG ROSENQUIST

8 DETLEF WESTPHALEN

9 KATIE COUGHLIN

10 ADAM DARLINGTON

11 XING XU

12 MICHAEL McCABE

13 ANDREW deLASKI

14 PAUL DOPPEL

15 JILL HOOTMAN

16 MARSHALL HUNT

17 CHARLIE McCRUDDEN

18 NICK MISLAK

19 JOHN HURST

20 HARVEY SACHS

21 MICHAEL SHOWS

22 LOUIS STARR
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1 MARK TERZIGNI

2 APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):

3

4 RUSTY THARP

5 MEG WALTNER

6 ROBERT WHITWELL

7 SAMI ZENDAH

8

9 ON THE WEBINAR:

10

11 JIM DEL TORO

12 KAREN MEYERS

13 LINDA WILSON

14 MICHAEL WOODFORD

15 MIKE RAY

16 RICHARD MURPHY

17 STEPHEN MADDOX

18

19 PUBLIC ATTENDEE:

20

21 MIKE WOLF, GREENHECK

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 9:15 A.M.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm Eileen

4 Barkas Hoffman, one of your facilitators for this

5 important negotiated rulemaking. We are in the third

6 meeting and we have a full house, actually.

7 What we would like to do is go around

8 the room, each person please say your name and speak

9 into the mic and organization. And also, we will be

10 asking when you do speak to also identify yourself.

11 We have a new court reporter, and all of you on this

12 side are hard for her to see who is speaking. So if

13 you could identify yourself when you speak, let's

14 start with Charlie.

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air

16 Conditioning Contractors of America.

17 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, HRI.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, United

19 Technologies, Carrier, and somehow my name tag card

20 got lost between yesterday and today.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

22 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi
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1 Electric.

2 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and the

3 California Investor Owned Utilities.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied

5 Air.

6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest

7 Energy Efficiency Alliance.

8 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with

9 SMACCNA.

10 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs with ACEEE.

11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

12 MR. SHOWS: Mike Shows with UL.

13 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural

14 Resources Defense Council.

15 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson.

16 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, General Counsel,

17 DoE.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DoE.

19 MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle, FMCS.

20 We have the individuals on the line, and

21 I will just read off the names that I have. We have

22 Karen Mays and Jim Del Toro from the Working Group, I
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1 believe, on the line?

2 MR. FREEMAN: Yes. I can read the

3 names, if you would like. We have David Ransom,

4 Diane --

5 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs is here --

6 MR. FREEMAN: Diane Jakobs.

7 MS. JAKOBS: -- or Karen Meyers.

8 MR. FREEMAN: Jim Del Toro; Karen

9 Meyers; Linda Wilson; Michael Woodford; Mike Ray;

10 Richard Murphy and Stephen Maddox.

11 MR. BANTLE: Thank you, Jeremiah.

12 And also, Diane, yes, we do have you, as

13 well.

14 Can the public introduce themselves?

15 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, with

16 contractors in support of Trane.

17 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant.

18 MR. LONG: Huang Long, Navigant.

19 MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck.

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence

21 Berkeley Labs.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: LBNL.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen,

2 Navigant Consulting.

3 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia,

4 Navigant.

5 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington,

6 Navigant.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Andrew deLaski was here.

8 I am assuming he will be back in a few moments.

9 MR. WHITWELL: And John Hurst, as well.

10 MR. HOFF: And John Hurst. So let's get

11 started. We are here from 9:00 to 5:00. We have got

12 a full day. Let's see what we can do.

13 Up on the screen and I think we will all

14 have copies of the PowerPoint, but up on the screen

15 is the PowerPoint for today.

16 Let me ask John. John, is it Greg who

17 will be leading us through?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: No?

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Can we make that full

21 screen? We have these printing now so they should be

22 ready in about a half an hour for hard copies, but we
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1 are going to go through this.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: That's a blank side, yes.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're going to go

4 through kind of a recap of the work we did last time

5 and bring everyone one up to date on the work we have

6 done during the three business days that we had to

7 complete the work from the last set of meetings.

8 We're going to go will you the

9 commercial furnaces first and then the AC part of

10 agenda.

11 Don't know who is going to start with --

12 is it Adam? Are you the lucky guy? All right.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with NEEA.

14 We asked, there were some questions of

15 the DoE legal as far as whether different values

16 could be said and I assume that means to be

17 negotiated or not. There were defined names.

18 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DoE.

19 The best I can do is provide you an

20 update that there are ongoing discussions so we don't

21 have the answers yet for those. They are very wavy

22 and. All these things have precedent behind them, so
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1 we're sort of grappling with that. I was going to

2 make the joke that this is trying to find flexibility

3 under the EPCA. I won't make that joke.

4 Anyhow, I guess the best advice I can

5 give right now is to say you know the provisions of

6 EPCA and the requirements. Until you hear otherwise

7 from us with the answers to those questions, it's

8 safest to assume you have to comply with all the

9 requirements of EPCA as we continue to look into

10 this.

11 I wish I could give you an answer, but

12 it's beyond just me making a decision, obviously. I

13 apologize. We're trying. Thank you for your

14 patience.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE.

16 I think we still have quite a bit of

17 analysis to go through, so I don't think at this

18 point any of the legal questions asked of DoE are

19 getting in the way of anything at this point.

20 Clearly, they will be important very

21 soon, I hope. My strategy here, if I was

22 negotiating, and I am, is that we all remain flexible
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1 in what we want to do.

2 But Eric is right. I mean, the statute

3 is what it is, but let's not take anything off the

4 table just yet until we get to that point.

5 MR. DOPPEL: John, Paul Doppel with

6 Mitsubishi.

7 On that point, this has been like three

8 weeks since the question was asked, and it doesn't

9 appear that an answer is coming. I mean, is it the

10 answer is just no or --

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I don't think that's

12 the case. I think, as Eric mentioned, that these are

13 very big issues to DoE, the precedent-setting issues,

14 what we've done, what we can do.

15 These decisions go pretty high up in the

16 Department.

17 MR. SASI: Is the answer a plain no, you

18 have already have it? And I'm not saying the answer

19 is going to be no or yes, but it's not an easy no.

20 It's not an easy yes.

21 MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning, everyone.

22 I'm Adam Darlington with Navigant.
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1 I guess here is list of the topics we

2 are going to go through, but I'm going to go over a

3 couple of slides on the commercial furnace,

4 engineering analysis updates, and then I'll turn it

5 over to Greg for the discussion on downstream

6 analysis, updates and results. So I guess this is

7 just the schedule. I won't spend any time here.

8 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt,

9 PG&E.

10 Could the speakers today at the podium

11 please belt it out? It seems sometimes very quiet so

12 some of us have difficulty hearing. Thank you.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: One of these guys makes

14 that unit on the roof and it makes that humming

15 noise.

16 MR. DARLINGTON: Quickly, to go through

17 this, the updates of the engineering analysis are

18 basically what we, I think, hopefully what we

19 discussed last week, so you know we got some feedback

20 about the assumption about how the heat exchanger

21 surface area would change, and so we had originally

22 assumed for the NOPR analysis that the two blank
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1 would increase. We changed that to assume that the

2 surface area would be increased through the addition

3 of two bros, and then for the heat exchanger

4 materials, we got a lot of feedback on those, as

5 well, last time.

6 Originally, we were assuming aluminized

7 steel at all of the non-condensing efficiency levels,

8 and we have updated that to include various types of

9 materials so we're now looking at aluminized steel

10 type 409 seamless steel, N type 316 stainless steel

11 with the assumption that most of the 80 and 81

12 percent models would be made from aluminized steel

13 and then at 82 percent, they would be constructed

14 from stainless steel.

15 And so those, so the percentages of

16 models at each efficiency level constructed from each

17 material were actually implemented in the LCC. So we

18 do have a slide later that talks to that.

19 And then the other update that that we

20 made over the last few days was just to update the

21 raw material prices and purchase part costs to

22 reflect our most recent data.
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1 So with that, jumping into the updated

2 engineering results, the first table here is for the

3 gas-fired and, as I just mentioned, we had multiple

4 materials.

5 I have bolded a couple of them just

6 because that shows where the most significant share

7 of units was assumed to be in the downstream

8 analysis.

9 At 80 and 81, we assumed the bulk of the

10 units would still be made of aluminized steel.

11 However, we did also account for the fact that some

12 units today are probably going to be at, in the base

13 case, they're going to be made out of certain grades

14 of stainless steel.

15 And then at the 82 percent, we had most

16 of the units being made out of 316, based on some

17 feedback that we got, with also a smaller fraction

18 being made out of 409.

19 Then the other thing shown here is the

20 oil-fired. Really, the changes for that were just

21 updating the material prices and the purchase parts.

22 That's actually all that I have, and the
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1 rest is Greg.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good morning,

3 everybody. I'm going to be going over the updates to

4 the LCC starting with the LCC results.

5 I guess the most dramatic change here is

6 on the 82 percent AFUE. Before, there were a lot

7 more energy savings, average energy savings, average

8 savings of the LCC, that is. And there were a lot

9 more achieving net benefit. Now there's a lot more

10 with net cost.

11 So you might ask why that number is

12 still positive if there's so many folks with a net

13 cost. It's basically that the folks that are

14 benefitting are benefitting more than the folks who

15 are incurring costs. They're benefitting more than

16 the -- the people incurring a cost are losing,

17 basically.

18 MR. SACHS: Could you go back and let us

19 look at that for a minute? I'm still having trouble

20 with the contrast on the green and white.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Now you know why we

22 don't have handouts. This is the one slide why I
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1 didn't print these out.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Because of the colors?

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Because of some of

5 the numbers.

6 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner with

7 NRDC.

8 The main cost, are there other cost

9 changes besides the steel cost change? Did the --

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, there's two

11 things going on here. The two drivers are the costs,

12 the manufacture production costs and, as I'll get to

13 later, the base case efficiency distribution. That

14 has changed significantly, as well, based on the

15 latest update to the AHRI directory. So that

16 influences the fraction that are achieving that cost,

17 net benefit and no impact, and so what that affects

18 is the amount of energy savings that you can achieve.

19 MS. WALTNER: So the latest AHRI

20 directory shows what impact that --

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Why don't I jump

22 to jump to that right now?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE.

2 This is the issue where we had more

3 people at 80, and then at 9 percent, I think, was

4 that 82? So the 9 shifted down and a bunch from 80

5 went to 81.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct. Correct. So

7 for 80 percent thermal efficiency, it used to be 70

8 percent. Now it's 29 percent.

9 And for 81 percent thermal efficiency, I

10 think that number was on the order of 29 or --

11 something in the 20s and now it's up at 70 percent.

12 Again, this is based on the latest AHRI

13 directory, using model availability as a proxy for

14 market share.

15 MR. SACHS: Outdoor --

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Harvey?

17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Outdoor in

18 this case means RTU and indoor is that small set

19 of --

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right.

21 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: 95 percent of the
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1 market is outdoor. 5 percent is indoor.

2 MR. STARR: This Louis Starr with NEEA.

3 Can we go back to the last slide there?

4 Or the one that -- yes. So the average lifetime is

5 15?

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thanks for reminding me

7 about that. The lifetime has been increased to be

8 consistent with what is being used in CUAC.

9 And there, you know, the lifetime for 7

10 and a half tons is around 20 years, for 15, 21 years

11 and for 30 tons, around 33 or 34, and so the weighted

12 average value is 26, and so that increased from the

13 18-year life that was used in the previous set of

14 results.

15 MR. STARR: Okay. A question to

16 follow-up on that, so there was actually two

17 questions, then.

18 Louis Starr, again.

19 The net benefits, how did that change

20 from last time? I don't directly remember that last

21 column, the net benefits. Is that up or down, or how

22 did it -- it seems like the 92 percent at 50.8,
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1 that's, is that up or down from last time, in

2 particular?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't know. I was

4 wondering if someone at the contractors table could

5 pull up last meeting's presentations so we could see

6 those numbers.

7 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam from

8 Navigant.

9 So looking at the last presentation, it

10 was about the same. We had 50.6 percent net benefit

11 last time.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: What about on EL 2?

13 MR. DARLINGTON: Oh. And EL 2 has

14 changed quite dramatically. It was 88 percent net

15 benefit last time.

16 MR. DeLASKI: So greg, this is Andy

17 deLaski.

18 What I am looking at, sort of the LCC,

19 the big change is at 82, which before was cost

20 effective on average. Now it's shown to essentially

21 not be cost effective with median payback exceeding

22 the life of product and that's driven by the
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1 presumption that you're using a lot more higher cost

2 materials in the heat exchanger per our discussion

3 last time.

4 So you've weighted that relatively

5 heavily, although I think you said you have some that

6 you're leaving at the lower grade of steel.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. This slide shows

8 for 82 percent that 25 percent would be this 409

9 steel and 75 percent would be 316.

10 MR. DeLASKI: Is 409 the sort of

11 conventional, standard material?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's a, 409 is a lower

14 grade stainless steel.

15 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. Oh, I see. And 316

16 is a higher grade?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. That's correct.

18 Right, Adam?

19 MR. DARLINGTON: Yes.

20 MR. DeLASKI: And that was based on your

21 additional discussions with individual manufacturers?

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I'll let Adam
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1 speak to that, because he was the person that spoke

2 to folks.

3 MR. DARLINGTON: Well, yes. So we had

4 gotten some feedback from manufacturers that the

5 grade that would be used is 316. And so what we had

6 observed on the market, though, is that, and we had

7 this discussion last time when we looked at the 82

8 percent, the model that was rated 82 percent and

9 tested 82 percent and had aluminized steel. So the

10 assumption is that some people would get by with a

11 lesser grade.

12 And Greg, actually, I don't want to put

13 you on the spot, but I think like some of these

14 percentages, all of these percentages, I think you

15 guys had someone that was giving you input, right? --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right. That's

17 right.

18 MR. DARLINGTON: -- that works with you

19 that has got expertise in the field?

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. That's correct.

21 We have a subject area expert that we

22 consult with to also provide input on these numbers.
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1 MR. DeLASKI: I'm not sure this matters

2 a lot. This is Andrew deLaski again.

3 This is kind of a question for the

4 manufacturers, which is: So you have, you know, if

5 the is at 81 percent, say, or 82 percent, how does

6 the market sort where different grades -- I mean, how

7 do you know, right?

8 Because we were saying that the 82

9 percent, that condensation is a problem, given

10 certain installations. So how would it sort, how

11 would the market sort where those products, the

12 higher grade of steel goes, at a given efficiency

13 level?

14 MS. JAKOBS: Hello? This is Diane

15 Jakobs. This is something I've worked on. I would

16 not use 316 on a heat exchanger. Actually, 409 is

17 better than 316, but I would, 2940 C, if I had

18 (inaudible) but that's what we use in the

19 residential. We had the part where we know that

20 there is (inaudible) that we would use 2940

21 stainless steel and we do not use 316 (inaudible) is

22 problems with (inaudible).
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1 So actually, 2940 C is more expensive

2 than 316. But I agree with Andrew. I don't know how

3 much this matters except that maybe if you actually

4 designed a furnace 82 percent thermal efficiency, you

5 would be using 2940 (inaudible) or something similar

6 to that.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: That was Diane:

8 MS. JAKOBS: (Inaudible) it's not

9 expensive enough.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Could everyone hear Diane?

11 THE REPORTER: No.

12 MS. JAKOBS: It's really echoing for me.

13 I don't know how you can.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from

15 Carrier.

16 So you asked a question, how would the

17 market sort? I don't think the market would sort.

18 It would be some manufacturers are are going to

19 choose one, some are going to choose another, I guess

20 is what would happen here, most likely.

21 We use the 409. It's an option. It's

22 available to our customers for our furnaces, but it's
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1 really more for what Diane talked about last time,

2 where you have condensation that can occur in the

3 head exchanger during the cooling operation.

4 You can have, you can have moisture

5 conduction there. So it's to help to avoid corrosion

6 or reduce corrosion there and prolong the life of the

7 of the heat exchanger.

8 The 316 is more resistant to acidic

9 materials, so if we have a furnace design where we

10 know that there is a significant period of time that

11 it could be occurring or running in a condensing

12 operation, we would want to use something that's more

13 resistant to the acids in the combustion, in the

14 condensation material.

15 MS. JAKOBS: We actually have a

16 passthrough in safety standards, so we just have, we

17 have to pass that (inaudible) and we introduce

18 refrigerants or combustion air. It causes acids to

19 form, and we have to pass (inaudible).

20 MR. DeLASKI: This is Andrew following

21 up, Bob.

22 So I understand what's happening here at
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1 82 percent thermal efficiency.

2 At 80 and 81, what the analysis assumes

3 is that this is a range of material, a combination of

4 aluminized steel, 409 and 316.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Which we use today.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Which is in use today.

7 MR. DeLASKI: That's how you make your

8 -- the parts benefits remains today.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

10 MR. DeLASKI: But when you sell a

11 product with -- sort of the base product is

12 aluminized steel; is that a fair statement? And then

13 the other is a sell-up?

14 MR. WHITWELL: It's an option the

15 customers can choose. So like, for example,

16 customers in Canada, where it's colder, may most

17 likely or often choose a stainless steel. Higher

18 elevations also sometimes will select stainless

19 steel, because you can have a higher risk of

20 condensation at higher elevation.

21 MR. DeLASKI: Now you're answering. So

22 then the market does sort itself. So you're saying
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1 the customer sorts.

2 MR. WHITWELL: The customers do it,

3 right, yes.

4 MR. DeLASKI: The customer says, I have

5 a, I'm at a risk of condensation --

6 MR. WHITWELL: And it's based on their

7 --

8 MR. DeLASKI: -- engineer or whomever.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

11 Just as a follow-up question, in terms

12 of orders of magnitude, does that option of the more

13 resistant head exchanger add 1 percent, 5 percent, 10

14 percent, to the cost of the product?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Cost of the total

16 product?

17 MR. SACHS: Yeah. I mean, is it trivial

18 or something that's notable.

19 MR. WHITWELL: It's substantial. I

20 mean, it's not -- I mean, if you look at it on the

21 total cost of a rooftop unit, I mean, it's maybe not

22 so big, but it's, in terms of dollars, it can be $100
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1 or --

2 MR. DOPPEL: Up there, they're showing

3 it.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm showing you the

5 slide that Adam had presented earlier with the costs.

6 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.

7 Looking more closely at those cost

8 numbers, it looks like the thing that's really

9 driving the change is the change in the up gauge

10 line. Is that fair to say? And the difference in

11 energy savings? Or are there other changes?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. There are

13 differences in the energy attainments, but you can

14 achieve these because you've altered the base case

15 efficiency, right? So much, but a big component also

16 is increase in the manufacture production costs for

17 putting that stainless steel heat exchanger in there.

18 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. You would

19 also increase the surface area to get a higher

20 efficiency, so whatever your (inaudible) would be

21 (inaudible).

22 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane.
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1 Yes. I'll reiterate, for people who may

2 not have heard Diane.

3 The total effect means that your fan

4 also has to push more air when you increase the tubes

5 to the heat exchanger, so you have an increase in fan

6 energy, as well, in order to push across that larger

7 heat exchanger.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Should I move on? I

9 had just shown this slide with the percentage

10 breakdown of what type of steel is used at 80

11 percent, 81 percent and 82 percent thermal

12 efficiency.

13 This is a repeat from the last meeting,

14 just updating the cost numbers to 2014 dollars, so

15 other than that, nothing has changed. This, again,

16 only applies to the 90-plus thermal efficiency units.

17 You saw this earlier. This is the base

18 case efficiency distribution and noted what changed

19 from what was used previously.

20 Again, the big change was the increased

21 market share of 81 percent thermal efficiency and no

22 market share of 82 percent thermal efficiency.
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1 This shows what happens to that

2 efficiency distribution over time, very little change

3 in the base case. That is the case without

4 standards.

5 This shows the shipments, the new

6 shipments that were developed to be consistent with

7 what is being used in rooftop air-conditioners.

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: I have a question on

9 that. This is Dave with Allied.

10 The NOPR analysis showed a significant,

11 like a 40 percent, decline in shipments for rooftop

12 products, and that's not reflected here.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, what you're

14 seeing here is the base case. That is the case

15 without any standards either on AC or furnaces.

16 But we'll get into the shipments model

17 and the results for that at the end of this

18 presentation, which is maybe today or tomorrow.

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Thank you.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, this is what you

21 saw last week, just a repeat of what the trial

22 standard levels are and the fact that trial standard
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1 level number 4 was the proposed standard level.

2 This shows the results, and again, the

3 TSL 4 I believe had energy savings, full fuel cycle

4 energy savings, of around .5, .55, and they have gone

5 up.

6 Again, the big reason for the increase

7 is the fact that the lifetime of the product has

8 increased, so -- but again, relatively speaking, you

9 know, we're still talking about small numbers across

10 all these trial standard levels, of course, with the

11 exception of trial standard level number 5.

12 If you look at the net present value,

13 now, the maximum net present value sits at, still

14 sits, at TSL-4. I thought -- I was about to say

15 TSL-3, but it's TSL-4.

16 So that's all I had for commercial warm

17 air furnaces. It looks like people are still looking

18 over the numbers and trying to digest them, so --

19 MS. WALTNER: Yes. John, I don't know

20 --

21 I'm sorry. Meg Waltner, NRDC.

22 I don't know if you know when we're
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1 going to get the printouts, or is it possible to get

2 them e-mailed sooner? Just, I'd like to spend a

3 little time looking.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. They might

5 already be in the docket, but I can send an e-mail,

6 as well.

7 Go off the record for a second.

8 (Discussion held off the record.)

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Could we take maybe a

10 ten-minute break, I was just thinking maybe a

11 ten-minute break, and see where the printouts are?

12 Let's take a ten-minute break. Thank

13 you. I will exercise my authority.

14 (Recess at 9:46 a.m., resuming at 10:13

15 a.m.)

16 MS. HOFFMAN: We're back on the record.

17 Hello. Eileen Hoffman here. We're back on the

18 record.

19 Just a few reminders: Identify

20 yourself, speak loudly into the microphone and, those

21 of you on the webinar, only one at a time. That has

22 been working out. We'll hear from Greg again. Thank
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1 you.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi. I'm just here to

3 see if anyone has any additional questions on the

4 furnace analysis.

5 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg.

6 Could you go back to slide 9, please?

7 Sorry. My slide numbers are different. Slide 10.

8 So I'm curious for EL-0 the average

9 installed cost went down from the last analysis?

10 2062 in the last analysis. Do you know what's

11 driving that decrease in cost?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I can only assume that

13 has something to do with a different manufacture

14 production cost, but no. No. I'll have to get back

15 to you on that unless, Adam, you have any ideas?

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Speak into the microphone.

17 MR. DARLINGTON: This is Adam from

18 Navigant. Sorry. So you said the average installed

19 cost went down from the last time?

20 Greg, so when we updated for the most

21 recent materials prices and purchase price, actually,

22 all of the MBCs, including the baseline, are
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1 increased from what we had before. So that doesn't

2 explain it. Sorry.

3 MR. DeLASKI: I'm looking at -- yeah.

4 So I'm looking at slide 9 this time, $2,087 for the

5 average installed cost 80 percent.

6 And then from our last meeting, slide 11

7 was $2,262 for 80 percent.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: I can get back to you,

9 maybe after lunch --

10 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- with an answer.

12 MS. WALTNER: Thank you.

13 MR. DeLASKI: And DSL-1, Dave is

14 pointing out also, went down, DSL-2, where then it

15 goes up so --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I will get back to you

17 on that later today.

18 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. And just sorry to

19 drill on that a little bit, that's almost a $500

20 incremental cost between EL-0 and -2, whereas back on

21 the slide with the steel prices, it's more like a

22 $330 incremental cost between the two steel costs.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember,

2 this is a manufacture production cost and we are

3 marking it up, right, to a customer price, so there

4 are mark-ups involved in taking that NPC into a

5 retail price.

6 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

7 Carrier.

8 So looking at this slide, we see that at

9 EL-2 level, it has a 25-year payback. 62.6 percent

10 of the buildings have a net cost increase. So

11 looking at this, it looks like you would pick EL-1 1

12 based on the payback being longer than the life of

13 the equipment for anything -- for EL-2, plus the

14 large percentage of buildings that get penalized in

15 terms of cost at the higher levels.

16 Yet on the other slide it shows, I mean,

17 it seems like it conflicts with that data, if you go

18 to slide 16. This just seems to be in conflict. I

19 can't quite understand it.

20 But can we then go back to 9 for a

21 second? So does this suggest that we should be

22 looking at EL-1 for the gas-fired commercial warm air
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1 furnaces?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: He's doesn't answer

3 that.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I don't answer

5 that, and the bottom --

6 MR. DeLASKI: I'll you my response,

7 which is that yes, those numbers hold up. I mean,

8 I'm not going to sit here and advocate for a product

9 with a 26-year payback.

10 That's not, you know, the main question

11 is a relevant question, which is: Is there an error

12 here so we can get to the bottom of it? So I'd like

13 to hear an answer to those questions to see whether

14 that increment is actually proper.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I agree.

16 MR. DeLASKI: See if they're in line,

17 but yeah, those numbers hold up. That's not a

18 standard that we would support.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Even I might not support

20 that.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I mean, then we

22 got to dig into the numbers a lot deeper, because I
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1 don't understand how this reconciles with the other

2 numbers.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: The MPV? Yeah. You can

4 answer that question.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, like I said

6 before, we are dealing with a longer product lifetime

7 now than we had done previously, so that does wash

8 out, wash out completely the effect of the base case

9 efficiency distribution, changing significantly.

10 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni

11 with SMACCNA.

12 So if I understand correctly, you're

13 saying the lifespan of these units averages outs to

14 about 26 years?

15 Among other questions I sent out between

16 the last meeting, a bunch of questions to a number of

17 contractors, and one of the questions I asked was

18 lifespan of units, and the answers consistently came

19 back 15 to 20 years, 15 to 20 years.

20 So I'm not sure that the 26-year,

21 especially as an average -- that might be a high-end,

22 but I don't know that that would be an average value
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1 based on the responses I got from the contractors.

2 MR. DeLASKI: I guess I would follow up

3 on Bob's point that it's a little puzzling. I don't

4 -- the math is kind of beyond my -- I can't -- my

5 intuition tells me that if you have a 26-year payback

6 and you have that ratio of winners to losers, it's

7 how to see how you get to a positive national MPV.

8 Again, it's hard just reading the

9 numbers to understand it.

10 ROSENQUIST: What's being carried

11 forward from the life cycle cost analysis is

12 basically, average values that you see in this table.

13 And so although we have more losers than

14 winners here, there is still a positive overall, and

15 that gets carried forward into the national impact

16 analysis and, in turn, the additional years of

17 operation result in the increase in energy savings.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE.

19 So maybe this will help frame it a

20 little bit.

21 So what that percentage simply means is

22 that, when you just count people, you have more
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1 losers, but the people who win use the product very

2 intensively, so it doesn't -- the sheer count doesn't

3 translate into the MPV.

4 The same with a light bulb. If you have

5 five light bulbs in your house and you use one 12

6 hours a day and the other four, you use a half an

7 hour a day. You have four losers and one winner.

8 But the fact that you're using that thing 12 hours a

9 day overwhelms the energy savings portion, which gets

10 carried through to the MPV. Does that -- so that's

11 how the math kind of works there.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

13 Thanks, John for that, but I want to

14 return to this service life question, which can been

15 framed analytically.

16 The first thing I want to note is that

17 your revised analysis really does separate out the

18 very large, at 30-some, 33 years, I believe, versus

19 low 20s, 20 and 21, for the two smaller classes.

20 I can chew on the 20 and 21. They sort

21 of make sense, not only with what Mark has brought

22 but what I think we heard at a very early meeting
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1 about the internal planning numbers used by the

2 manufacturers themselves.

3 So I just want to make sure that we're

4 not using that 26 in the analysis across all classes.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: So when it comes to

6 furnaces, we only have the classes of warm air and

7 oil fired, right? I mean gas fired and oil fired so

8 -- as opposed to the three equipment classes that we

9 have in CUAC, and there, we are using those distinct

10 lifetimes for those classes.

11 MR. STARR: Then I think, just in terms

12 of industry practice, at 26 was weighted, how --

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I would have to

14 get back to you on that, on that, probably --

15 MR. SACHS: It's not a number that makes

16 sense to me, and Mark and I were having a little

17 conversation here. It reminded me of a slogan used

18 by all the investment advisors which is, "Past

19 performance is no guarantee of future performance."

20 And the service life of stuff that's

21 wearing out now I would think, based on my work on

22 ASHRAE committees dealing with service lives, is
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1 probably not a real good design, a guide, to what

2 bright manufacturers are doing now to control cost as

3 a guide for predicting future costs.

4 I think very long lives assumed are

5 almost a slap in the face to the ability of

6 manufacturers to do advanced manufacturing.

7 MR. WHITWELL: It's a backhanded

8 compliment.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. SACHS: I would prefer to say left11 handed.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from

13 Trane.

14 So taking John's analogy -- and that

15 helped, John -- who are the users that are doing the

16 12 hours in here?

17 I mean, you know, can you tell me who

18 are those that are using them longer, like you said,

19 so, therefore, getting that energy -- I'm trying to

20 put my head around who they would be to understand

21 where the changes are happening.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Like the air
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1 conditioner analysis, there is a, there is a building

2 sample, and, you know, I will have to get back to you

3 on specifics, but in any building sample, there are

4 always folks that use their equipment more than other

5 buildings.

6 I mean, it's really, I mean, it sounds

7 like you want to really get after what parts of maybe

8 the country or what building types in our sample are

9 using it so frequently; is that more or less the

10 question?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I would want to get

12 after that if we are not going to settle on TSO-2.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

14 Is the building sample for CWAF the same

15 as CUAC?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: CUAC.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's not the exact same

18 building sample, no. So again, in CUAC, we're using

19 that 1033 building sample, and for CWAF, I actually

20 don't know what the building sample exactly is.

21 I want it consistent, so again, it's

22 another thing I'll have to get back to you after
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1 lunch.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE.

3 Also, not how long you use the

4 equipment, also the prices for that building is, will

5 impact that economic, so it's not just hours of use.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Gas prices.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

9 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

10 I think when you look at your sample or

11 the building samples you look at, if you look at food

12 service and kind of figure out how that kind of

13 weighs into things, I think you might be seeing a lot

14 in that sector in colder climates, and that might be

15 what's driving it.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hearing no further

17 questions, I'll move on to the air conditioner

18 engineering analysis, and I'll pass it over to Detlef

19 Westphalen.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DoE.

21 So just to close out the furnace, we

22 have a couple of to-do's. We'll look into the
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1 history Mike brought up, we'll look at the building

2 samples to address that issue, but otherwise, we

3 think we've pretty much put the analysis to bed,

4 notwithstanding those two issues, unless someone else

5 raises something now.

6 (No response.)

7 MR. WHITWELL: No, I agree, John. But I

8 just wondered, we had a little discussion about life?

9 Do we want to talk some more about that, or do you

10 want to wait until we get into it on CUAC?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think, I think

12 the issue is more pronounced with the AC part, so to

13 the extent we change it there, we will flow that

14 back.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. On to air

18 conditioning.

19 I'm Detlef Westphalen, Navigant

20 Consulting. I'll start the air conditioning

21 presentation here with CUAC engineering analysis

22 updates.
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1 So just an overview of the status, since

2 the last meeting, we did not make any changes to the

3 7 and a half ton and 15-ton results so we won't be

4 discussing those in much detail here.

5 We developed energy use results for

6 30-ton models. We did this for all of the efficiency

7 levels involved. We did not complete that in time to

8 pass all of that information to LBNL for them to do

9 the LCC and energy use analysis for all of those

10 efficiency levels, but they'll be presenting up to

11 EL-3.5, so stay tuned for that.

12 We have completed the EL-4 and EL-5

13 analyses for the 30-ton, however, and so they'll be

14 able to run with that after these meetings.

15 We identified the specific

16 manufacturers, which of their 7 and a half ton and

17 30-ton models they used in the analysis and we have

18 had some back-and-forth on, particularly on the

19 30-ton on those.

20 We've had some discussion with curb

21 adaptors, the curve curb adapter vendors, in order to

22 try to get to the bottom of what's going on with curb
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1 adaptors.

2 And related to that, we've also

3 conducted some additional review of unit size trends

4 and then developed an approach for trying to

5 integrate the need for the curb adaptors or

6 conversion curbs, if you will, into the analysis at

7 different efficiency levels and not necessarily just

8 at one efficiency level, but, since it would likely

9 be a distribution, depending on the particular

10 designs that the different manufacturers have.

11 And then we also developed cost curves

12 for the 30-ton models.

13 So launching into some of this, the

14 details for, that we have product descriptions as we

15 had for the 7 and a half and 15, we have them now for

16 the 30-tons.

17 And I've been a little bit more

18 reluctant to throw all the data out there and to pass

19 around all the hand-outs, because some of the

20 discussions we've had with the manufacturers on the

21 30-ton models, you know, potentially, some of that

22 information is privileged and I guess to some extent,
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1 I would like to get some feedback from the people

2 that we had those discussions with on what we could

3 provide to the rest of the group, and potentially, if

4 it needs to be sanitized in some fashion, how it

5 would be sanitized.

6 The team has prepared the hand-outs of

7 the component wattage profiles that essentially show

8 the calculation of the IEERs from the simulated test

9 points that would be used to do an IEER calculation

10 and also the correlations that are then handed off to

11 the downstream analysis.

12 And so the question is, maybe you want

13 to think about that, the people around the table, who

14 this applies to as to whether handing that out to the

15 whole group is acceptable or if there is anything

16 sensitive in those results themselves. We don't have

17 to have an answer right away.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So Detlef, I don't know

19 if it includes some of our information or not, but I

20 think it probably does. So I guess maybe we could

21 look at that on the side before deciding whether or

22 not it can be disclosed.
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1 What I'm saying is look specifically at

2 what it is that you would be, that you think you

3 might need to be disclosed and so once we look at,

4 once I look at that, we can decide.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So the component

6 wattage profiles for the 30-ton analyses, the initial

7 versions of those I believe I e-mailed out to the

8 manufacturers already for the --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But then I think

10 there was some, there might have been some back and

11 forth on that.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I think there was still

13 back and forth. That why I'm like him. I can't --

14 MR. WHITWELL: In fact, I know that -- I

15 just saw an e-mail from Jim to you this morning.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Same thing here. I want

17 to know at what point we are and what we went back

18 and forth.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah. Should we

20 talk privately or --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes. Not right

22 now, but we can talk off-line during a break or
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1 something.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

3 Certainly, in the interest of as much disclosure as

4 possible, we want to figure out what can be revealed,

5 but we want to protect what you feel should be

6 protected.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Going back to these

9 product descriptions, there is not much that has

10 changed in these tables as compared to last time.

11 Some of the information which was wrong has been

12 replaced with the triple asterisks, indicating not

13 disclosed, and so we have to resolve how much of that

14 can be disclosed.

15 This table just shows the outdoor heat

16 exchangers and outdoor fan information and then

17 indoor heat exchangers and fans.

18 And so at this point I can't say a whole

19 lot more about this until we have resolved those

20 disclosures.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So you're asking, I guess

22 you're asking about disclosing the same information
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1 that's already been shared on the 7 and a half and

2 the 15-ton? Or is it --

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. Basically, those

4 component wattage profiles that then show, for

5 instance, what the indoor fan power might be. If

6 that's sensitive, then it's something we might be

7 concerned about that, but then if we cannot disclose

8 that, then the whole group has to sort of come

9 together as to, you know, how can we move forward.

10 MR. WHITWELL: So let's take a look at

11 that.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do you want to do now?

13 MR. BANTLE: This is Ted.

14 Yes. Navigant and the manufacturers, is

15 it worth taking 15 minutes now and doing this?

16 MR. WHITWELL: I guess, I guess the --

17 yeah. Let's do it, but --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. WHITWELL: -- the horse is already

20 out of the barn on the 7 and a half and the 15-ton,

21 right? And so I don't know about whether I have any

22 additional concern on the 30-ton.
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1 MR. BANTLE: Why don't we take a quick

2 break, and you can check out the -- do you have the

3 information available?

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: For the 30-ton, yeah.

5 One thing I wanted to say about the 7

6 and a half and the 15 which was different was that we

7 initially developed that information with publicly8 available information. We didn't get any input from

9 the manufacturers before developing it.

10 MR. WHITWELL: All right.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Different barn.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But it was

14 reviewed with the manufacturers?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

16 MR. BANTLE: Let's take 15. Is that

17 enough time, 15 minutes, for you to review that with

18 the manufacturers?

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: I hope so.

20 MR. BANTLE: We'll check in. It Is

21 10:35. We'll come back at 10:50. Thank you.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Off the record. Off the
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1 record now.

2 (Recess at 10:36 a.m., resuming at 11:03

3 a.m.)

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi. We're going back on

5 the record. We're going back on the record. Eileen

6 Hoffman.

7 Detlef, okay?

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: So it appears that the

9 manufacturers --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi, everybody. Let's go

11 back. Thank you.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the manufacturers

13 involved are comfortable with us showing this

14 top-level information which was passed on to LBNL,

15 and so bear with me a minute while I pull up the

16 file.

17 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt,

18 PG&E.

19 What would be the best PowerPoint slide

20 to relate to as you discuss this?

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: This would be looking

22 at the 30-ton model descriptions, the three slides
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1 that show the details of the different efficiency

2 levels.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: 20, 21 and 22.

4 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

5 (Discussion held off the record.)

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: The additional detail,

7 which we were going to hand out but instead will show

8 to the group, includes essentially these component

9 watt knowledge profiles. You will remember those,

10 these tables that we showed for the 7 and a half and

11 15-ton. These are for 30-ton, and each is for a

12 representative actual unit, one for each of the

13 efficiency levels considered.

14 So this one that you see now is the

15 baseline, and it is a constant air volume unit. So

16 you can see the four different rows showing

17 performance at four different ambient temperatures

18 and the wattages of the various components used in

19 IEER calculation, adding up to EER for each of the

20 test points and then adjustment, either interpolation

21 in order to get the performance at one of the target

22 IEER load levels, or adjustment for cyclic
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1 performance.

2 So this is the baseline constant air

3 volume. You can see the target IEER is 10.6. This

4 one isn't exactly 10.6. They're all approximately

5 matching the targets.

6 Then here, for path one, path one is

7 constant air volume. This is the EL-1 on the

8 constant air volume path. The IEER is 11.6. This

9 shows, similarly, the performance of the unit at the

10 different levels.

11 This is path 2, the VAV path for EL-1,

12 also approximately 11.6 IEER. If you want to take a

13 closer look at the comparison, for example, for the

14 CAV, you can see that the indoor power fan remains

15 constant at the 29.91 watts, whereas for the VAV, the

16 indoor fan power gets lower as you go to the lower

17 stages.

18 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA.

19 Is that SAV, staged air volume?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: For 30-ton, we didn't

21 do staged air volume. We did VAV, and so --

22 MR. STAFF: And that's based on sales
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1 data or something or --

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's based on the

3 input that we got from the group here in the

4 discussions.

5 MR. STARR: I thought we were going to

6 look at, once we got the AHRI data back and see what

7 the split or -- probably, it's right. I don't know.

8 I'm saying, but I thought we were going to --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Same model. Jill Hootman,

10 Trane.

11 The AV, it's the same model, and the

12 staged air. It's the same model.

13 MR. STARR: All right.

14 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell for

15 Carrier.

16 We do offer both, but still, the VAV is

17 a significant percentage of what we sell.

18 MR. STARR: And we are going to get

19 information -- I mean, I don't sell air handlers, so

20 I don't know what the percentage of sales are, but we

21 eventually will see how much.

22 That was one of the things in data
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1 selection, is in that last stage, we're going to see,

2 and the AHRI, I think, is collecting that data and

3 they're going to see what percentage is at 50/50 at

4 80 percent VAV and not.

5 But I guess you didn't necessarily make

6 the distinction of staged air volume and continuously

7 variable air volume. Okay. All right.

8 So, but we'll still be getting that

9 data, but it won't necessarily tell us the split

10 between the staged air volume and --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

13 MR. HUNT: Excuse me. Marshall Hunt,

14 PG&E.

15 So the EER requirement for this size

16 equipment, I was looking here at the ASHRAE. Is it

17 --

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think it's 10, right?

19 MR. HUNT: -- 9.8 or 9.9?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think, if you

21 consider without gas heat, with electric or no heat,

22 I think it's 10.
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1 MR. HUNT: Oh, okay. It's 10. Yeah.

2 There it is. Okay. 10, and it drops to 9.8 with the

3 gas.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right.

5 MR. HUNT: So we're, I'm just making

6 sure we got the 95 covered. Okay.

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: So moving down, we have

8 EL-2, path 1 and 2 a little bit further. Target is

9 12 and a half here. Yeah. These are all more than

10 10 at the EER level.

11 Now, one thing we did, which probably

12 doesn't affect the results overly much, is the

13 control power input is higher for the VAV units.

14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr.

15 I'm looking at the fan power and CAV and

16 path 2, EL-2. So actually, if you move your screen,

17 is it -- it seems like constant air volume is at

18 3,100 and the other one is at 3,600 for stage 4.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're looking at the

20 upper table here?

21 MR. STARR: Yes. I'm looking, trying to

22 compare those two table, and it looks like the fan
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1 power is 2,800 as opposed to 763.

2 I'm trying to think if that makes sense

3 or maybe you can just help explain it to me.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh. You're asking, why

5 is the --

6 MR. STARR: Higher efficiency.

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- full-load fan power

8 higher for the VAV unit as compared with the CAV

9 unit?

10 MR. STARR: Right. Okay. I think I

11 know, but why don't you explain it?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess for one

13 thing, these are particular units that happen to have

14 the fan that they have, and the other thing is you

15 can afford a little bit higher fan power for a VAV at

16 100 percent because you're going to spend little time

17 there and so that additional energy is not going to

18 hit you that many hours of the year.

19 MR. STARR: So are you saying that

20 they're choosing to maybe use a fan that uses a

21 little more energy because they know they're going to

22 be able to make savings by being able to turn that
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1 fan down later and so they're maybe choosing in this

2 particular model to use a fan system that uses a

3 little more energy than a typical one; is that what

4 you're getting at?

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Possible. I mean, the

6 other thing is, for VAV, you know, when you put it in

7 a building, you have potentially additional pressure

8 drop associated with the terminal boxes.

9 MR. STARR: So in other words, you have

10 a higher external static, because you have to

11 maintain the supply pressure in order for the VAV

12 boxes to work, so you're working at a higher external

13 static pressure than more constant air volume

14 systems. That's probably more like what's happening.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell with

16 Carrier.

17 Certainly, that's part of it, but Louis,

18 you have to keep in mind that these are different

19 designs that exist on the market, right?

20 So it could be, if you look at

21 refrigeration systems, there is differences in the

22 evaporator coils, so maybe one has more pressure drop
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1 than the other; could be differences in internal

2 static pressure requirement; plus whatever models

3 were picked may have been, may be units that are

4 selected for higher external static, too.

5 So it's hard, difficult, I think, to

6 compare details of one versus the other versus the

7 other because these are all different designs from

8 different manufacturers.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: For different customer

10 needs.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: And we did take a look

13 at the trends of the fan power to make sure that

14 there wasn't a clear outlier. And in most of these

15 cases, there weren't that many units to choose from

16 in order to allow us to give an IEER.

17 MR. STARR: This is Louis again.

18 From my point of view, so what Bob is

19 saying that different ones, as long as these units

20 are supposed to somewhat be representative of their

21 class of efficiency, so as long as they're more or

22 less representative of the ones that you chose, then
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1 it should be fine.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right.

3 MR. STARR: So I think, I'm going to

4 guess that the main reason we're seeing the higher

5 thing is because a VAV system has to operate at a

6 higher external static pressure for the VAV system to

7 work as opposed to constant air volume, you don't

8 have VAV boxes downstream that you have to overcome

9 that pressure drop, whereas in a constant air volume

10 system or in a VAV system, you do.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. You also have

12 the drive losses, which it's not going to be huge,

13 but --

14 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg.

15 To drill down on Louis's question, do

16 you think this unit is representative of the class?

17 What I thought I heard you say was that

18 there's a lot of variation, and these profiles could

19 vary a lot depending on the specific unit

20 characteristics.

21 MR. WHITWELL: It would be hard for me

22 to say. I mean, I am not the one that did the
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1 analysis to look at all of the products that are in

2 the market, right?

3 I think that's a question for Navigant,

4 but there are going to be differences. The constant

5 air volume may have been a larger cabinet and it

6 could have less internal static pressure, lower

7 internal pressure drop because of that, while the VAV

8 may be a smaller cabinet. I don't know.

9 MS. WALTNER: Det, have you looked at

10 load profiles like this across multiple units at the

11 same, for the same category, or have you sort of

12 picked these units and come up with this?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: We've done this with

14 one representative unit at each combination of class

15 and efficiency level.

16 I mean, it takes a fair amount of work

17 to try to represent the performance at all these

18 levels. Certainly, we could twist the manufacturers'

19 arms and force them to give us all their test data

20 and then we'd have it, but I'm sure the group

21 probably wouldn't collectively go for that.

22 So, you know, we've taken as much
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1 publicly, public information as we can and developed,

2 This is what we think the performance is.

3 And 30-units are a little bit more

4 complicated, so we've had a little bit more back and

5 forth with the manufacturers and that's why we didn't

6 just hand out the information.

7 We did look at the trends of the fan

8 power and, you know, condensive fan power and EER

9 versus the particular load point, and there are

10 variations.

11 I think when you get to this kind of a

12 product and the complexity of this kind of a product,

13 you can't have a sort of a continuum or continuous

14 type of analysis. There's just not enough, there

15 aren't enough, there aren't enough examples out

16 there.

17 So, you know, if somebody chooses a CAV,

18 they might actually be buying something like this,

19 because there might not be a CAV that has the 2,800.

20 We didn't look at all of them to verify,

21 but that's an issue. If it makes sense to try to get

22 to a -- I mean, I don't know how we could, other than
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1 stepping through all the detail and taking like a

2 half-hour look at, all right, let's see what the fan

3 power trend is -- to some extent, I'm trusting the

4 manufacturers to tell me that, yeah, we think that's

5 representative for their units.

6 I mean, they know their competitors'

7 units, perhaps not at the same level of detail, but

8 they have some understanding.

9 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's pretty

10 representative. It would be difficult and it'd take

11 a lot of time to go through everything, for sure, so

12 I think Navigant has done a pretty reasonable job.

13 MS. WALTNER: Thank you.

14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with

15 just one last point. I'll let that be it.

16 But I'll have everybody know that if you

17 look at a constant air volume system and the IEER is

18 12.49 and then you look at a VAV system and it's

19 essentially the same, 12.45.

20 But essentially, if you think about it,

21 if you're a consumer out there and you want to buy a

22 more efficient piece of equipment or whatever, you
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1 would typically think, Oh, I'll put a VAV system on

2 it because it will save energy.

3 But really, the metric here is showing

4 that, really, the constant air volume uses or is just

5 as efficient as the VAV unit, where in reality, I

6 think actually, I think a VAV system does indeed save

7 energy, but I think for the typical consumer, it's a

8 little confusing, and for programs, too, as well.

9

10 MR. WHITWELL: But Louis, keep in mind,

11 I think that was Navigant's goal, was to pick units

12 that had the same or similar IEER for the analysis,

13 right?

14 But i mean, no question, if you have, if

15 we have a unit with the same, everything else being

16 the same except it's got the staged air volume or the

17 VAV, you would expect to see a higher number on that

18 unit because it's going to use less fan power. And

19 that's, you know, that's correct.

20 But because of the way the analysis is

21 being done to compare units at the same IEER level --

22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.
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1 And you also know that the constant air

2 volume unit is almost half a point higher at EER main

3 load.

4 MR. STARR: I think it's very -- you

5 know, if you think about, you're going, you're a

6 customer and say, buy this more -- a VAV system

7 probably costs more than a constant air volume

8 system, but they look and they say, Well, the IEERs

9 are the same level.

10 It just seems like it can cause market

11 confusion in general.

12 MR. WHITWELL: But keep in mind, these

13 are not, these products would not be in the same

14 catalog, right? Because they, I mean, they very well

15 are different manufacturers.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Randy?

17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Rusty?

19 MR. THARP: One thing that's -- what

20 manufacturers typically do is to take our constant

21 air volume unit and change out the air moving system

22 to get our VAV or SAV unit, and so it's -- what's
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1 being done here is not what a manufacturer would do

2 in the development process, right?

3 MR. WHITWELL: So that's why --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Or propose to a customer.

5 Or propose --

6 MR. WHITWELL: That's why for this

7 analysis, you're not seeing the same equipment at

8 constant volume versus variable air volume, because

9 you would have a different IEER value on the VAV

10 unit.

11 MR. STARR: So you're saying, in other

12 words, if you're a Carrier unit and you switched up

13 to your Carrier VAV system, you would see a change in

14 the IEER variable, right?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, assuming we're

16 taking advantage of that in our rating.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Your choice in rating

18 that.

19 MR. WHITWELL: But yes. If you look at

20 our product line, you will see, they'll see constant

21 volume units and staged air volume units and they'll

22 look very much the same except they're going to have
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1 the staged air volume and variable air volume will

2 have higher EER levels.

3 MR. STARR: Think about --

4 MR. WHITWELL: IEER levels. Sorry.

5 MR. STARR: If you think about a crafty

6 contractor, right, he'd say, Well, why buy the

7 Carrier VAV system. I've got a VAV system that has

8 the same IEER as the other one.

9 Of course, I guess you would, the

10 Carrier one would, in theory, have a higher IEER

11 value, so that's what they would be buying. But if

12 they got it at the same price, a VAV system as a

13 constant air volume system, they're thinking -- you

14 know.

15 MR. WHITWELL: But they're buying it for

16 its utility, which is the VAV utility, right? So

17 they're are going to make a choice based -- they're

18 going to look at the VAV units that are available on

19 the market and they're going to make a decision.

20 MR. STARR: All right.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I just want to make one

22 other distinction. Jill Hootman from Trane.
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1 We have a choice in rating systems, and

2 because we're in certification with the government

3 and certification with AHRI, we may not take

4 advantage of an IEER rating for VAV and make sure

5 that that same basic model is the same as the

6 constant volume, because our exposure to testing and

7 exposure to certification becomes higher. So

8 manufacturers make those choices. We conservatively

9 rate, sometimes.

10 MR. STARR: I see.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Because of the exposure it

12 takes.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So here are the CAV and

14 VAV for the EL-2.5. These are for target 13.2.

15 Again, you can see the CAV EER is quite a bit higher.

16 And then we get to --

17 MR. HUNT: Could you go back just a

18 second? Thank you.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yep.

20 So then when we get to EL-3 and -4, it's

21 all VAV, and Louis, to your point that CAV only goes

22 so far when the metric is IEER.
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1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.

2 So I was just looking at the fan energy

3 column. How did those numbers compare with the other

4 ones, the previous EL?

5 So they look like they're the constant

6 air volume use. They're actually a little bit,

7 they're more at full load and then less at part load;

8 is that right? If you look back to your CAV sample?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. The CAVs

10 generally have less indoor fan power as compared with

11 the VAV full load.

12 MR. STARR: And so that's -- so you're

13 using -- they must have a different static pressure

14 assumption in the test procedure; that's where it's

15 coming from?

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: No. They're all,

17 they're all the same static pressure. The way the --

18 MR. STARR: Okay. It stays the same.

19 Okay.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the way that the

21 static pressure requirement in the field affects this

22 is that you might have a bigger motor and so it's
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1 operating at a lower load point, which makes it a

2 little bit less efficient.

3 MR. STARR: I see. Okay. It's not too

4 bad. It's 1,920 for that one, and the other is, the

5 VAV one has -- I'm looking at stage 1, and the

6 wattage at CAV is 1,920 and then if you go up to

7 EL-4, kind of look and see what the similar

8 equivalent value would be, it's 1,692.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: If you're just looking

10 at one of the components, they don't necessarily

11 monotonically decrease as you would go up the

12 efficiency ladder.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: EL-5, 115.6. So here

15 we worked a little bit harder than perhaps we needed

16 to because we were so close on the percent load. We

17 could have just used those numbers rather than

18 interpolating or adjusting.

19 That's the set of these tables for all

20 the ELs for the 30-ton. And then we also created the

21 correlation that LBNL used in their analysis, their

22 energy use analysis. I don't know how much time we
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1 want to spend with this.

2 Initially, one of, I mean, one thing

3 we've done with all of these is to check to make sure

4 we get back to the same IEER levels when we plug them

5 in to the IEER calculation.

6 Should I increase the --

7 MR. WHITWELL: It's like an eye test.

8 MR. SACHS: I'm afraid getting close

9 doesn't help me.

10 MR. WHITWELL: That's what I was

11 thinking.

12 MR. SACHS: About me or you?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So if we put more

14 significant figures in some of these numbers --

15 MR. HUNT: This is Marshal with PG&E.

16 Does this give the data that you could

17 do a system map and then work with kind of the

18 concept that Techlor (sic) has from the ASHRAE

19 committee -- I forget the number -- where you get the

20 right numbers and then you can simulate properly the

21 system, or not?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: These correlations
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1 assume the same return air conditions as for the IEER

2 test.

3 MR. HUNT: Oh.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: They assume different

5 ambient but the same return conditions.

6 MR. HUNT: Which is not the case in a

7 true simulation.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: I imagine the 90.1

9 stimulation is more sophisticated.

10 MR. HUNT: Yes. Thank you.

11 MR. STARR: Louis from NEEA.

12 The other thing is, I think these are

13 steady-state conditions, and I think the Lawrence

14 thing may have some stuff, assuming about whether

15 they are coming up to the load or coming down on the

16 load, whether you're -- it's getting hotter outside

17 or it's colder.

18 MR. WHITWELL: The return air conditions

19 change.

20 MR. STARR: Kind of like when you're

21 driving up the hill, you have to push gas more, and

22 if you're coasting down the hill, you use less gas
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1 but you're going the same speed, different amounts of

2 energy.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: You see some of these

4 are two-stage, some of them have more stages.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Can we get copies of this

6 for the Working Group?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's what we were

9 saying. We're showing it but not distributing it.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you. Asked

11 and answered.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Does anybody want to

13 see anything in particular here? I mean, it's is a

14 lot of numbers.

15 MR. STARR: So this is Louis.

16 I, you know, there's too much to look at

17 this far away. All I'd ask is kind of, when you

18 looked at this stuff, did it make sense to you and

19 sort of some of the trends and what you would expect,

20 the things that are happening in there? Was it kind

21 of consistent to what you would expect to happen?

22 Really, it's just a question if you
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1 checked the numbers or is it really just kind of,

2 These are what the numbers are that came back and

3 with that level of detail you looked at it.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: As I said, we checked

5 to make sure we get the same IEER calculations back,

6 and because the performance versus ambient

7 temperature is not strictly linear, the calculation

8 is -- you know, there's a little bit of ground left

9 over there when we compare.

10 But then, you know, one of the things

11 that was an issue with the NOPR analyses was the

12 trend versus on ambient temperature of the capacity

13 of the power of the compressor.

14 And we look at these, you know, the

15 slopes, which is the first line here, of the capacity

16 correlation for the compressor and they're all

17 somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 negative number for

18 the highest stage, which you're losing capacity as

19 the ambient temperature increases.

20 But they're all about the same range

21 there, and none of them get unusually high like we

22 saw for some of the NOPR correlations.
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1 Some of these numbers are just, you

2 know, the indoor fan powers are, you know, there's no

3 correlation there. It's just the number, the same

4 number that you saw on the wattage table.

5 The condenser fan we're assuming

6 increases its input power a little bit as the air

7 temperature goes down because of the higher density

8 of the cooler air.

9 But other than that, we have a linear

10 correlation of the compressor power and capacity.

11 If nobody has more --

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I just wanted to add

13 that going all the way back to mid-March, with

14 smaller group out in Berkeley, that we were using the

15 correlations coupled with the building load data, the

16 8,760, to basically determine the power for each hour

17 based upon the ambient temperature in that hour, just

18 as a reminder to everyone why these correlations are

19 necessary. Okay.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: So why don't we go back

21 to the presentation here.

22 I think that more or less covers what we
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1 did on the energy side of the engineering analysis

2 for the air-conditioners. James will be talking

3 later about the costs.

4 Moving on to the curb adapter

5 discussion, we've been calling these conversion

6 curbs. I guess in the industry they call them curb

7 adapters. I'm kind of using them interchangeably

8 here in the presentation.

9 We had discussions with Micrometl and

10 Thybar, obtaining information regarding pressure

11 drops, costs, magnitude of the existing market.

12 Regarding pressure drop, information was

13 a little bit different from the two vendors. One

14 indicated that the pressure was really very low .05

15 inches water column. For a small, something like .1;

16 for a large, .2. I think it was supposed to be for

17 very large. Sorry about that. I think that's an

18 error there.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that was very large.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then for vendor B,

21 I received like a three-quarter-inch thick booklet of

22 submittal drawings of all these curb adapters for
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1 units of a particular brand made by a particular

2 manufacturer, and these were all the curb adapters

3 that could be used with all the different products of

4 that brand where their existing units would have been

5 anybody's.

6 And so there was a lot of information

7 there, and I didn't digest all of the cross8 manufacturer conversion curbs, but for all of the

9 conversion curbs which were same manufacturer to same

10 manufacturer, I looked at the commercial size units

11 and averaged all the instances of pressure drop that

12 were in that booklet, and the average was.26 for that

13 set of instances reported pressure drop.

14 It did go from the .1 up to the .7

15 within that set of data, but the average was .26, and

16 if I included 2,000 CFM units, which I'm assuming may

17 or may not be commercial size, they would probably be

18 residential size, this .26 would drop down to .25 so

19 not a whole lot different.

20 So that's what I got, and certainly, we

21 could dig more into that booklet, but I would think

22 manufacturer to manufacturer is probably the most
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1 relevant thing to look at here in terms of the

2 rulemaking, because those cross manufacturer across

3 brand conversion curbs would presumably be sold and

4 used today in order to allow a building owner to

5 switch brands, if they wanted.

6 MR. STARR: This is Louis again.

7 So let me see if I understand. What

8 you're saying is you didn't look at the conversions

9 as going from a Trane model to a Carrier model or

10 brand X to brand Y. You only looked at the ones that

11 are going, a curb adapter for a Trane model to a

12 Trane model and a Carrier model to a Carrier model,

13 where they have to adjust the sizes and that's the

14 number that you looked at for the pressure drop curb;

15 is that correct?

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Almost. I only had

17 this booklet for one brand, so if the new unit was of

18 this one brand.

19 MR. STARR: Actually, that was one of

20 the points I was going to make, a lot of times is

21 that when you're switching, when you're going from

22 one unit to a new version of that old unit, you're
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1 not going to have as much problem getting your curb

2 adapted because they have the drops in a similar

3 spot, although they may be a little bit, if the unit

4 is bigger, you're going to have to adjust a little

5 bit to make it fit.

6 But it wouldn't be as bad as switching

7 where the return and supply are absolutely opposite

8 direction and all of a sudden, you have to switch

9 around where those drops are. That's a much bigger

10 pressure drop and much more dramatic conversion curb.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: You might have, maybe

12 you have a point.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman.

14 So maybe put differently, were there any

15 of those conversion curbs for a manufacture from that

16 manufacturer where he went from like a portrait to a

17 landscape scenario?

18 Louis just indicated where they're

19 rotated 180 degrees or 90 degrees. Were all of them

20 just relative size adjustments in similar locations

21 in that booklet, the three- or four-quarter inch

22 booklet?
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I didn't look

2 distinctly, okay, which of these look like the ducts

3 are in different positions versus just different size

4 ducts?

5 You know, I just said, Okay. Well, let

6 me just look at all the data that could be assembled

7 that I have, which is same manufacturer.

8 MR. STARR: So this is a question

9 actually more for Rusty.

10 Would you expect to see that in your own

11 unit? If you switched from a Goodman unit to another

12 one, would you be switching from portrait to

13 landscape with your drops?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I can. Yes.

15 MR. THARP: Actually, one of the other

16 manufacturers would be better to ask.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Jill Hootman from

18 Trane.

19 Actually, we have old stock out there

20 that is this direction (indicating) and newer stock

21 that is this direction (indicating).

22 MR. STARR: So that would be the same
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1 issue you'd have with any EL level, though, right? I

2 mean, in other words, your new units, even though the

3 more efficient one is still going to have the same

4 kind of drop, so you'd be switching from your

5 portrait to landscape in your base model, as well as

6 your EL-5 model.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

8 MR. DeLASKI: This is Andrew deLaski.

9 I think I raised this point in our last

10 meeting, that is, when you have a curb adjustment in

11 the base case and are we capturing that?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we'll get that.

13 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. There's some

14 baseline. I think we raised that. I addressed it.

15 MR. BANTLE: Mark?

16 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with

17 SMACCNA.

18 My question is, for the pressure losses

19 that are shown, I'm kind of curious how they're

20 measured. And the reason I ask is, they're

21 essentially, a duct fitting is what these curb

22 adapters are. A lot of them are just enlargers or
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1 reducers, if they don't change 180 degrees.

2 If I take an enlarger or a reducer and

3 test it the way fittings are tested, much like fans

4 are tested, and in an ideal situation, I can get very

5 low losses, and those numbers do make more sense.

6 I wouldn't argue that those numbers are

7 wrong, based on the pressure drop through that

8 particular fitting.

9 But when we -- if I took an elbow, as an

10 example, and tested an elbow, a very efficient elbow,

11 I could get a very low pressure drop.

12 If I stick that elbow right on the

13 outlet of a fan, that changes things because of the

14 system fit.

15 So where this is located, what I'm not

16 100 percent comfortable with is, are those numbers

17 directly applicable to the effect of using a curb on

18 the system is or isn't?

19 I would tend to say it would be a little

20 higher, but I would also argue that in some cases, it

21 could actually lower, depending upon how -- sometimes

22 having the distance, you know, these create a little
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1 bit more distance, actually benefits the air flow.

2 So it can kind of go either way.

3 But I was just curious what the -- I

4 have a feeling that these are tested as in like they

5 pulled these as an individual item, probably put some

6 length of duct on the inlet-outlet side, much like

7 how we would test fittings.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: You bring up an

9 excellent point and a very good question. This is a

10 question that I brought to the people that I was

11 talking to.

12 I have a little bit of experience trying

13 to measure something like this, and my experience is,

14 it's not easy to measure it to figure out what's

15 really going on.

16 And the people that I talked to didn't

17 themselves know exactly how the measurement was made.

18 However, one of the vendors, this vendor B, said that

19 these calculations that are in this booklet, it's all

20 analytically calculated. So they have a computer

21 program that actually does the calculation, and he

22 also said that they have done spot checks, actual
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1 measurements.

2 And so I wasn't talking to the engineers

3 that made the measurements, but he says they do have

4 engineers that and that, you know, they know how to

5 make these measurements and that they have tested the

6 model and that they feel it's accurate.

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis again.

8 One thing I would point out is, like in

9 the example I drew up there, I actually drew

10 something that's something you shouldn't do in the

11 way of design.

12 But as you see, in the existing unit

13 that was there, it was done wrong, in other words,

14 that system effect from how that's designed, but you

15 also have that same system effect when you going to

16 the new ones.

17 But to me, it's sort of, if you started

18 out probably with a bad design, you're also -- it

19 sort of negates it in the fact that the original case

20 was a bad design. When you put your curb adapter

21 one, you're matching up to one that was the same

22 field conditions that you started with.
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1 So to me it really is just a pressure

2 sure drop, like you've done about the adaptor itself.

3 That's the main item. You can't really think about

4 the ducts that are connected to and that system

5 effects, because you can't isolate the variable, is

6 the problem.

7 And so to some extent, I think the

8 approach for what you're doing makes a lot of sense

9 to me.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: If there are no

11 questions, moving on, cost information for the two

12 vendors was comparable. I didn't get all that much

13 cost information, so comparable at a top level.

14 The other aspect of this was magnitude

15 of the existing market. One of the vendors hazarded

16 an estimate of what he thought the U.S. market is

17 currently for these products and estimated about

18 100,000 a year, which was higher than I would have

19 thought.

20 And so I didn't get in touch with all

21 these other vendors, but this was just one Google

22 search, curb adapter, and all these vendors pop up.
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1 So in testing the theory about the

2 100,000 unit market, it's reasonable to believe that

3 if we have all these vendors -- and if you look at

4 their web sites, they do look like reputable vendors.

5 They have multiple locations -- that it is a

6 substantial existing market. That's the impression I

7 get.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

9 You have two of the largest ones there.

10 KCC would probably be the third. That's just my

11 opinion as far as sales.

12 MFR. CYMBALSKY: If you look versus the

13 shipments of the units, it seems like a pretty high

14 percentage, if I'm reading the graphs right.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. This is leading

16 to some of the other slides that we had.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: That sounds right to

18 everybody?

19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think partly, it

20 would include those that are in the 3- to 5-ton

21 range.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh. Okay.

2 MR. STARR: The other thing is those, so

3 that is people changing from model Y to model X. The

4 curb adaptors, that's what they are used for

5 primarily, now, right?

6 MR. WHITWELL: Well, also going from, as

7 you go up in efficiency. If you look at our product

8 line, as you go up in efficiency, there's quite often

9 a chassis jump, so that's going to reduce it --

10 MR. DeLASKI: Intuitively, it does make

11 -- it's not impossible to believe, right? You've

12 got a lot of older products, as Jill said, that are

13 out there in stock. You had a new standard in 2010.

14 You had new ASHRAE levels. There's been change in

15 the market.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the new standard in

17 2010, plus there's new higher efficiency product that

18 has come out since then, and so those --

19 MR. DeLASKI: So if you had a --

20 MR. WHITWELL: -- customers that select

21 those --

22 MR. DeLASKI: -- installed in 1990,
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1 1995 --

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- they're going to ask

3 to use the --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: In 1990-1995, you had a

5 completely different landscape of manufacturers. We

6 had consolidation, and there have been lines that

7 have dropped out.

8 So there are, when you go to replace,

9 there's nobody -- they can't do a life-for-life

10 replacement any longer. Can you go find a Singer

11 manufacturer anymore? There's Singer still out

12 there.

13 MR. HUNT: A sewing machine.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Not the suing machine.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So these are in the

16 baseline. So the point here, I think, is the cost

17 isn't both the baseline and the standards case,

18 right? So the Delta is not going from zero to

19 100,000.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. We'll get into

21 the discussion later, but ultimately, the debate is:

22 How many are in the baseline? And then, you know,
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1 the long story short is, we did a calculation and we

2 said, Okay. Well, let's say 15,000 of these 100,000

3 are the residential size, so maybe that's not the

4 right number. So you get 85,000. We divided by all

5 the shipments of the commercials and we get about 31

6 percent.

7 And certainly, the input to that

8 calculation is subject to, if we can get better data

9 and it's important to the outcome of the analyses,

10 then certainly, we could feed in that better data, if

11 it exists.

12 MR. WHITWELL: John just -- this is Bob

13 Whitwell from Carrier.

14 So for ours, as the baseline equipment,

15 the baseline would still fit on the old size, at

16 least going back to 2000 or earlier. I don't know

17 how far back it would go, but it may not be the case

18 for all of them.

19 And plus, if we're replacing, if our

20 unit is replacing a competitor's, you would have a

21 curb there, probably.

22 So yeah, there are going to be some in
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1 the baseline, no question about it.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We do have some curb

3 appeal. (Laughter.) I knew someone would set me up.

4 MR. DeLASKI: No feeling these curbs.

5 MR. WHITWELL: You've been waiting two

6 weeks for that one?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. No. I just thought

8 of it this morning, really. It's a new one.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: We kind of did more

10 work on the equipment size analysis to support the

11 understanding of: How many of these units will

12 potentially require a curb as a result of efficiency

13 standards at different levels?

14 And so for the small class, last time we

15 presented size information for the 7 and a half ton

16 capacity. We've added 6-ton nominal, 8 and a half

17 and 10, and for the large, we added the 12 and a half

18 to 17 and a half and 20.

19 And then for each of these, we looked at

20 four major manufacturers that span the efficiency

21 range reasonably well and which efficiency level for

22 those existing designs would you have to bump up in
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1 size, i.e., require a curb adapter in order to set on

2 the replacement curb or replace the unit set on the

3 existing curb.

4 So one of the issues here was: What are

5 the shipments in each of these sizes? As part of the

6 shipment analysis, LBNL looked at shipments for the

7 entire class, the entire small class, and the entire

8 large class.

9 And so for the purposes of our little

10 analysis, we came up with a reasonable distribution

11 of, this is just for the small and large classes that

12 we have conducted this analysis thus far and so I

13 basically came up with a distribution for those two

14 classes of shipments, and when we get the shipment

15 data, presumably, we can correct this a little bit

16 and make sure we have the right input as far as that

17 goes into this analysis.

18 This slide talks about, given the size

19 data, what EL did we select as the EL that would

20 require an adaptor curb?

21 So we considered size increases at EL-2

22 or higher, and certainly, that's subject to some
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1 review. Maybe you want us to consider a size

2 increase from baseline to EL-1.

3 So if you have, if a manufacturer has

4 two models, one at a lower efficiency level and one

5 at the next higher efficiency level that is larger in

6 size, then we say, Okay. Aha. At that higher of

7 those two efficiency levels, that's where you start

8 to require a curb adapter.

9 The next two bullets talk about, okay,

10 well, what if there's a gap in there, the

11 manufacturers goes from, say, EL-1 to EL-3? What

12 happens at EL-2?

13 Well, we said, Okay. Well, let's say if

14 there's, if you go from EL-1 to EL-3, if there are

15 one or two efficiency levels in between for which the

16 manufacturer has no product, we just took the lowest

17 of those non-represented intermediate efficiency

18 levels as the size-increasing efficiency level.

19 If there was as much as three

20 intermediate non-represented efficiency levels, we

21 took the median.

22 So, for instance, if you go -- we have
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1 the two and a halfs here, so if you go from 1 to 3

2 and a half, that has three levels in between, we

3 would have said, okay. You jump up at 2 and a half.

4 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

5 So essentially, you're trying to take a

6 class of where you get a change in the model size

7 such that you have to bump up into a different casing

8 size and you're trying to pick the level that's the

9 median of that different level; is that what you're

10 trying to do?

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Maybe it makes sense

12 just to look at the charts here, and this kind of

13 explains it. So this little table here, efficiency

14 level for curb adapters for those -- these are the

15 different manufacturers here -- is really where the

16 action is.

17 So for manufacturer A, we have a unit at

18 a little bit higher than 13 and we have a unit at

19 20.8 or something like that. They're the same size.

20 Well, I'm saying the jump is at EL-5 because EL-5 is

21 higher than the 20.8.

22 MR. STARR: You know, one thing, and I'm
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1 sure you're aware of this, using the micro channel

2 coil is one of the advantages. It keeps your curb

3 size differently, you're not necessarily -- it

4 depends on what technology they use in order to keep

5 from switching their size of the coil. So I don't

6 know if it necessarily would be a direct

7 relationship.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we include micro

9 channel in all these points here, and so you see that

10 MCX with the X? This is the 6-ton size. It's hard

11 to see, but the purple diamond, the lowest purple

12 diamond has MCX here.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane.

14 Remember, Louis, micro channel, micro

15 channel manufacturers, very succinct aspect ratios.

16 Their ovens, the way they make them, everything is

17 very succinct. So you're locked into certain sizes.

18 It doesn't always equate to and it's a

19 very unfair representation of micro channel to say

20 that you're just going to automatically get into a

21 smaller cabinet.

22 They're based on the automobile
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1 manufacturers, and HVAC is not high enough to ever

2 make their changes in their ovens. Their ovens are

3 very, very expensive, millions of dollars, and so it

4 just isn't going to, it's not going to go there.

5 And I'm likely one of the largest users

6 of them right now, and I can't move --

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

8 Allied, and I would agree with Jill. It depends on

9 what tube type, what pit (sic) surface that you're

10 starting from whether you can make a micro channel

11 smaller, or it could even be bigger. It just depends

12 on what you're using as your base.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So this is the 6-ton

14 size capacity, so for manufacturer B, manufacturer B

15 for this size, this capacity, tops out at about 13

16 and a half.

17 So going to EL-2, we assumed that maybe

18 they could have made something the same size, but we

19 don't know, we don't have the evidence, so we say

20 EL-2 for that manufacturer at this capacity level.

21 And so we've gone systematically for

22 each of the classes through the four nominal
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1 capacities, to select these efficiency levels at

2 which we would grow.

3 And you can review this and comment on

4 whether you think we've picked the right ELs for

5 growth.

6 Here's the 7 and a half ton. Now, here,

7 for example, look at manufacturer A. We have EL-3

8 chosen. You see the smaller size, about 36 and a

9 half, I guess, base area, square footage, is at 14,

10 and so that's at EL-2.

11 Then the next one higher at roughly 50

12 square-foot base size is at, say, 20 and a half or

13 something like that, so that's an EL-4.

14 So we're going from EL-2 to EL-4. The

15 median of the non-representative, non-represented

16 intermediate ELs is 3 here. So we don't really know

17 for sure, but we think that once you step that far

18 out, that maybe that is a reasonable assumption,

19 subject to debate.

20 For manufacturer B here, here is where

21 we get into one of the bullets that I mentioned.

22 There is, manufacture B has a small unit at 32, but
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1 we're starting at EL-2, assuming that at this point,

2 not considering curb adaptor requirement EL-1.

3 But then otherwise, manufacturer B goes

4 all the way up to the top, you know, all the way to

5 Maxtech, and so greater than Max, even at that EL-5,

6 this manufacturer's unit in the analysis wouldn't

7 have required a curb adaptor.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: What were your steps, 6, 7

9 and a half, what else?

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: We did 8 and half and

11 10.

12 MR. STARR: I have kind of just a

13 question. In the manufacturer that didn't its curb

14 or didn't change their curb size, how did they do

15 that?

16 I mean, what was -- it seems like at

17 some point you would need to change it. Are they

18 just using really big curbs to start with, or what is

19 your kind of assessment of it?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, you can see that

21 manufacture B in the low levels is far and away the

22 largest chassis.
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1 And then you can follow some of this as

2 you go up and down the sizes as to, you know in some

3 of these situations, like if I look at manufacturer

4 A, we have a 37-square-foot base area at 7 and a half

5 ton, at 8 and a half ton, at 10 ton, and also for 12

6 and a half ton baseline, but then 12 and a half ton

7 higher efficiency levels grow.

8 So this was essentially our attempt to

9 try to get a better understanding of, how could the

10 analysis be a little bit more sophisticated about

11 what the assumption is about when a curb adaptor

12 would be required, thus, incurring the pressure drop

13 and also the cost associated with it?

14 And I realize there's a lot of

15 information here to look at. This is something that

16 potentially, you could look at at your leisure and

17 provide commentary maybe later in the afternoon or

18 tomorrow or something like that.

19 But then essentially what we did was we

20 have four manufacturers here, and we're assuming that

21 these four manufacturers would represent the

22 capabilities of the industry for the rest of the
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1 industry. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, that's up to

2 debate.

3 But we also don't know the market shares

4 very well of these manufacturers, and for the

5 purposes of the analysis thus far, we've assumed

6 equal market shares for the four.

7 I talked about the distribution of the

8 different capacities, the assumption that we made,

9 the smaller capacities having a higher sales, and

10 then we basically cranked that data and came up then

11 with this distribution of, if you choose a given

12 efficiency level, how many of the units would be

13 required or would be installed with a curb adapter?

14 And so we have the 31 percent at the low

15 levels, and then that sort of grows through the

16 distribution.

17 At the highest level, we're assuming 20

18 percent new construction, so those wouldn't require a

19 curb adapter, and then you see there's a little bit

20 of a gap between the top of the bar at EL-5 and 80,

21 and that represents that one unit where they went,

22 one manufacturer, where they went all the way to the
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1 max without the size increasing.

2 So we did this with the small class. We

3 also did it with the large class, obviously, larger

4 sizes here. And for this large class, you can see

5 the growth. You can see my unit base area scale goes

6 up to 190, but the 12 and a half ton are all down at

7 the low end. But then you kind of move up the scale

8 as you go up.

9 MR. DeLASKI: I have a question. Why

10 don't you go back to slide 30.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Andrew.

12 MR. DeLASKI: I'm sorry. My slides are

13 numbered differently. I guess it's the one with the

14 bar charts.

15 So is this telling me that since that

16 EL-0, you have 30 percent small curb adapter. Is

17 that your baseline?

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's the base case

19 scenario.

20 MR. DeLASKI: Is the 1 in 3, call it the

21 curb adaptor?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. Yeah.
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1 1 in 3 would be roughly using a curb adapter

2 currently.

3 MR. STARR: The main thought, does that

4 -- so your new construction, you never need a curb

5 adapter, right, a new building?

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right.

7 MR. STARR: So that is capturing --

8 Louis Starr -- that is capturing, this bar chart,

9 includes that part of new construction and first

10 replacement?

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. I just

13 want to do a process check to make sure our interest

14 is at its highest peak. We could take a lunch break.

15 I just wanted to check. How long do you think you

16 have?

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, for the energy

18 use part of things, I think I could be done fairly

19 soon. Then James would have costs to talk about.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: So maybe we could end at

21 12:30 and take a lunch break, come back at 1:30?

22 Would that -- so let's go until 12:30.
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1 But I, you all have been very attentive

2 and I want to make sure we keep that stamina up.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So why don't we just go

4 until you're done with your piece before we go to

5 costs? Will you be done before 12:30?

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's possible we'll

7 both be done by 12:30, if everybody is okay with --

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sounds ambitious.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't have that much

10 more myself.

11 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

12 Carrier.

13 I think this is a pretty thorough

14 analysis. I thank you for the competitive research.

15 But I think that -- I mean, it seems reasonable to

16 me. I mean, it seems like a reasonable and thorough

17 analysis.

18 I can't, I don't have anything that

19 would say that it's anything different than that.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Meg?

21 MS. WALTNER: Yes. Meg Waltner from

22 NRDC.
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1 As I look at this data, one of the

2 things that stands out first is that manufacturers

3 want to stick in the same size for as long as they

4 can. That seems clear.

5 And then you look at the small equipment

6 sizes, there does seem to be some correlation that

7 the highest efficiency products do tend to be in the

8 larger sizes.

9 And then in the large equipment size

10 category, that second trend doesn't seem to hold up

11 as well. There seems to be, A, more grouping sort of

12 in the same -- the sizes are closer together between

13 the different manufacturers and there doesn't seem to

14 be as much correlation necessarily between the high

15 IEER levels and the largest equipment sizes.

16 I'm wondering if that observation, does

17 that seem correct to the manufacturers?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell.

19 So Meg, you're looking at the 12 and a

20 half and 15-ton, for example.

21 MS. WALTNER: Yes, and up to 17 and a

22 half and 20-ton. For instance, on the 20-ton unit,
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1 the manufacturer D uses 170-square-foot base, but

2 that's -- the high IEERs are down in the 70 to 90

3 base.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, so if we

5 start, I mean, the 12 and a half ton, to me is

6 definitely shows showing that trend, right? With the

7 exception, I mean, manufacture D's unit starts out

8 larger, right?

9 But if you look at the others, as you

10 can up in efficiency, there is a jump in chassis

11 size, it looks like, right?

12 The 15-ton, there's a grouping. There

13 is a grouping for sure, but even if you look outside

14 that grouping as the efficiency IEER goes up, the

15 chassis unit base area is growing.

16 17 and a half ton is a little bit more

17 grouped. There are some cases, though, of where the,

18 as efficiency goes up, the units get larger.

19 MS. WALTNER: Yes, for manufacturer A.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 20-ton, 20-ton is,

21 you're starting to get into an area where there are

22 other things that are driving the size of the
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1 equipment, as well, such as options. You know,

2 there's more options on some product than others. So

3 that could be -- for example, manufacturer D could be

4 you've got a unit that's light a like commercial down

5 in one size and then up. The larger one, could be

6 more of an applied rooftop type product.

7 So, you know, again, looking at

8 different -- there's different things to say, pick

9 out, as you look at the different sizes.

10 MS. WALTNER: Right.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Also, it could be that

12 the 20-ton, the 20-ton in general could be a small

13 capacity size throughout the industry, could need a

14 larger cabinet. And in that case, you're going to

15 have room to go up more in efficiency without jumping

16 to another size.

17 MS. WALTNER: Thank you. That makes

18 sense.

19 And I guess the reason I asked that

20 question is, looking at the two different bar charts,

21 they look -- I can't tell -- they look almost the

22 same to me. Maybe there are differences between the
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1 large and small bar charts on our 35 and 30.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: It is different data.

3 They're not the same set of data.

4 MS. WALTNER: Very similar. But I guess

5 I would have expected sort of those differences in

6 trends to affect the bar charts more, but that's just

7 sort of my initial reaction to it. It's helpful to

8 have two thoughts.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I was looking more

10 at the dots than the bar charts.

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is David, Allied.

12 I think as you're comparing those drafts

13 from the small to the large, your X axis changes, the

14 scaling, it changes quite a bit. So what looks

15 tightly grouped for the large, you know, your scale

16 is completely different, so it's not quite as tight

17 as it appears there.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, on the dots. On the

19 dots. Yes.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Another point in

21 deciding when the curb adapter is required, we're

22 just looking for any increase, even if it's a small
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1 increase.

2 And the other thing I want to point out

3 is that these are all actual unit base areas.

4 They're not the area of the curb opening.

5 MR. WHITWELL: But there is a

6 correlation. They're highly correlated.

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, of course,

8 there's a correlation, yes. But just, you know, if

9 you look at your curb area and it's not that, then

10 it's what?

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

12 Just one last thing. I guess it kind of

13 maybe correlates, but if you look at your conversion

14 curb, let's say EL-5, basically, your pretty much

15 assumption is you always need a conversion curb,

16 because 20 percent of the sales are new equipment.

17 Or if 80 percent are replacement, that

18 means 20 percent is new, so that's of says any time

19 you're in EL-3, you know, certainly 5, you

20 definitely, you're going to be putting on a curb

21 adapter, and I should step down.

22 That's sort of, you know, EL-4, you're
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1 -- I mean, you think of 80 percent as being your

2 baseline. It's really the Delta between the bar

3 charts there of how many models don't need it as you

4 step down in models.

5 So if you look at 2.5, it looks like 30

6 percent of the time you really need it, and then as

7 you get up higher, it becomes more and more -- 30

8 percent of the time you don't need it. I guess 70

9 percent of the time you do, and once you get to 2.5,

10 you pretty much always need a rough curb, and I guess

11 that seems logical to you in terms of what you're

12 seeing in the market?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I'm just going by

14 --

15 MR. STARR: The numbers.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the dimensions that

17 we can get for these units and showing that -- you

18 know, you've heard the manufacturers say, you know,

19 you get to an efficiency level and it gets really

20 large, and you look at the data and, well, it does

21 get larger. So that's what's showing.

22 MR. STARR: Can you match up your
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1 conversion curb sales with equipment sales, just

2 present values? Or is there not really a way to do

3 that?

4 In other words, when you see they're

5 shipping 100,000 units, are you shipping the relative

6 percentage knowing that right now, the distribution

7 in the market is probably 01 and 2 EL levels?

8 You know, is that kind of the numbers of

9 curbs you're shipping out kind of corresponding with

10 the number of units that are selling, or is that

11 maybe a little too sophisticated to do?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: We have no idea of what

13 the distribution is of curbs.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Those are from different

15 companies. We don't make them. He just said, Thybar

16 and Micrometyl make them. We're not members of AHRI.

17 We're not even issued that data.

18 MR. STARR: Well, no, but they would

19 know how much they're selling, How many, how many --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand but they're

21 not going to --

22 MR. STARR: Not reporting that
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1 information.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: No. And they're not

3 individually going to report it, because it would

4 expose their numbers.

5 MR. WHITWELL: But Navigant did get some

6 indication from at least one of the suppliers on what

7 they thought the market size was, for what, for what

8 that's worth.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: And the other one asked

10 said, Ask the manufacturers. (Laughter.)

11 Any more on this part of the analysis?

12 Certainly, we can come back to this if you have some

13 input on what ELs we selected.

14 Hopefully, we'll get shipment data that

15 we can use to refine this, or if anybody has any

16 other information associated with inputs, certainly,

17 we can refine that.

18 So this slide we more or less covered in

19 the discussion on the detail of the units, basically

20 saying how we dealt with the VAV in our analysis.

21 For variable speed or otherwise

22 modulating compressor units, we did the IEER
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1 calculation based on close match of the load levels

2 with the same discharge temperature as for 100

3 percent load. That's strictly consistent with the

4 test procedure.

5 For staged compressors, we essentially

6 did the same thing, although we didn't have the

7 flexibility to get really close to the desired load

8 points. We basically had to do the calculation for

9 those particular staged capacity levels.

10 However, for part load, we didn't allow

11 air flow less than 20 percent of the full load air

12 flow. So for at least one of these calculations the

13 discharge temperature would have been higher than

14 full load discharge temperature.

15 Then the performance correlations for VS

16 compressors was basically four stages, full target

17 loads, performance correlations for the staged

18 compressors was based on -- I mean, the stages that

19 were available, you know, 2 through 5, depending on

20 how many there were.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier.

22 So discharge number, you're talking
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1 about the supply air temperature that's supplying the

2 temperature to the space?

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct.

4 MR. WILKENFELD: Okay. Not compressor

5 discharge.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Exactly. Yes.

7 And at that point we move on to costs,

8 and James will be explaining that.

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Hi. Again, I'm James

10 Battaglia I'm from Navigant.

11 So on the cost side, for 7 and a half

12 and 15-ton, as I mentioned in our last meeting, our

13 approach was to evaluate each manufacturer

14 individually and then average the results.

15 For 7 and a half tons, we didn't have

16 any update since the last presentation, and for 15

17 tons, we did make an adjustment to the Maxtech

18 efficiency level, the controls costs. We were double

19 counting a control board, so that has been adjusted

20 to be lower than what it was presented previously.

21 For 30 tons, because, as we discussed

22 last time, because of the limited number of models,
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1 what we're doing now is we're considering the

2 incremental MPCs across all manufacturers using a

3 single cabinet platform, so what Bob was talking

4 about, the applied type of product.

5 We did compare it to the smaller cabinet

6 products, and the costs, incremental costs for the

7 levels that we did have enough data, were comparable.

8 So again, here are the costs. We

9 presented these last time. I don't know if there is

10 any comments on these. (No response.)

11 MR. BATTAGLIA: And for 15 tons, again,

12 the only one that changed was the Maxtech level.

13 So here is the new cost curves for 30

14 tons, again, with the two different paths. Baseline

15 through EL-2.5 is CAV for path 1 and then through

16 Maxtech is VAV and then for path 2 is VAV for all

17 efficiency levels above the baseline.

18 So you can see for path 2, we do have a

19 higher incremental cost, and that's for the VAV.

20 Again, this is just the same data in

21 table form, also showing the shipping weights that

22 filter into the downstream.
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1 One thing to point out here, again,

2 because we're doing our shipping costs on a volume

3 approach, we didn't show an increase in shipping

4 costs. Basically, you wouldn't reduce the number of

5 units that you could fit on a trailer based on the

6 units that we analyzed.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Say that again, James.

8 I'm not following.

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: For the shipping costs,

10 again, as I mentioned last time, we calculated the --

11 our shipping costs are based on the number of units

12 that you can fit into a trailer.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes?

14 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for baseline to

15 Maxtech, what we did was we looked at the cabinet

16 sizes and assessed how many units you could fit on a

17 flatbed. And from baseline to Maxtech, we didn't

18 show -- there was an increase in cabinet size, but it

19 didn't trigger that drop in the number of units that

20 you could fit.

21 Again, we certainly welcome feedback.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from
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1 Carrier.

2 So I don't know. I would have to think

3 about that, but 30-ton, maybe not. But certainly, as

4 you get up to 60-ton, you know, you could be seeing

5 more.

6 So I mean, that's one of the issues with

7 picking one model to represent a range from 20 to 63

8 tons.

9 MR. SACHS: James, this is Harvey Sachs.

10 I guess the thing that strikes me, I'm

11 sure there's a simple technical reason. I have just

12 haven't seen it. In every case, EL-1 through 2.5,

13 the VAV is way significantly less than the CAVs.

14 MR. BATTAGLIA: That is because for the

15 CAV, you're increasing your heat exchanger sizes,

16 whereas VAV, you're just doing the control change.

17 So it's not, you're not like, you're not increasing

18 heat exchanger size and adding weight in that manner

19 to get to your higher efficiency level.

20 Does that make sense?

21 MR. SACHS: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

22 So it's that trade-off between --
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1 MR. BATTAGLIA: The controls with the

2 VAV.

3 MR. SACHS: It's just a surprisingly

4 large difference. Thank you.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: So James, back on the

6 shipping costs, not on 30 tons per se but back on our

7 7 and a half and 15, you were doing the same thing,

8 right?

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: How many could be fit on

11 a -- so as you went up in the EL levels, did you ever

12 consider that they could be stacked, and if so, as

13 they got bigger, they cannot be stacked?

14 MR. BATTAGLIA: We were not considering

15 stacking.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

17 MR. BATTAGLIA: Right.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a safer way to go.

19 MR. SACHS: Jill, This is Harvey.

20 On that question, I do notice a lot of

21 big units being shipped on flatbeds. What's the

22 smallest thing that gets shipped open on flatbeds?
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1 Does that cut over 20 tons or 40 tons?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no. No. No. No.

3 Almost all of these are 80 to 90 percent, all the way

4 down to 7 and a half tons on flat beds. 7 and a half

5 ton, dragging it out of an enclosed trailer is

6 starting to get hard.

7 But you will have sometimes consolidated

8 shipments, so you can even have 3, 5, 7 and a half

9 all consolidated on one shipment because it's all

10 going to one job, that kind of stuff.

11 So your 3 and 5 tons, which can be in an

12 enclosed van, would likely also be on these flatbeds

13 when they're consolidated.

14 But I understand what you mean. They're

15 just saying the universe of, it's all 7 and a half

16 tons and the bigger units and that kind of stuff.

17 MR. SACHS: Very helpful. Thank you.

18 MR. BATTAGLIA: Sorry. I was using the

19 term trailer, but we did assume flatbeds for these.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Any more questions?

21 (No response.)

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, then I want to thank
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1 you for your presentation and let's adjourn and come

2 at lunch, for lunch, finishing lunch, come back at

3 1:30, okay?

4 Thank you. We're off the record now.

5 (Thereupon, at 12:24 p.m., the luncheon

6 recess was taken.)

7 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

8 1:35 p.m.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Okay, everybody,

10 we're back on the clock. Bob? Mick? We're back.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, hi.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Hi.

13 I hope we all had a good lunch break.

14 Why don't you -- this is Eileen Hoffman.

15 Just to summarize, tomorrow, we're going

16 to end it by 5:00 today, but tomorrow it's at 8:00

17 a.m. in 950 L'Enfant Plaza, and it will be on the 7th

18 floor, but I believe you have to check in there,

19 right?

20 Is that correct, John?

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Just bring your

22 driver's license.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Bring by your driver's

2 license.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's no advanced

4 check-in like you have here, so you don't have to

5 sign a piece of paper and all that. Go through a

6 metal detector.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Property badge or not?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do we have to do the

10 property badge thing?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think you have

12 to do the, the property thing there. So your

13 computer just goes through the conveyor belt.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: And our hours are going to

15 be from 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., so you can have a

16 get-away day, if you need it. Okay?

17 MR. WHITWELL: So sorry. So what's the

18 room number?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's 950 L'Enfant

20 Plaza, 7th floor.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: It's the 7th floor

22 conference room.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: 7140, I believe, is the

2 number, but that doesn't matter.

3 MR. WHITWELL: John, when we were there

4 before, when we'd been there before, we had to call

5 and have someone come and escort us.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll be down.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

8 MR. DeLASKI: Eileen, before we start it

9 again, maybe we could go back on the record, because

10 I've got a couple of questions.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. Do you want us off

12 the record?

13 MR. DeLASKI: No. It can be on the

14 record.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. On the record. Sure.

16 MR. DeLASKI: There are two things I

17 wanted to raise. One is --

18 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Andrew.

19 MR. DeLASKI: -- I wanted to raise, I

20 think we had hoped in our overall agenda to talk

21 about shipments at this meeting. I guess the

22 question to the Department is, are we going to get
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1 to, are we ready on shipments, the sooner we get to

2 that, so we're ready. So I think the agenda called

3 for us, our overall agenda called for us to, 5-21,

4 present preliminary shipment and MIA remittance.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: And what was the second?

6 MR. DeLASKI: MIA is manufacture impact

7 analysis.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: No MIA today.

9 MR. DeLASKI: Or tomorrow?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Or tomorrow. It's

11 just, we've only gotten our substantive shipments.

12 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. I wanted to check

13 in on that.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Shipments today or

15 tomorrow? Shipments ready for today and MIA --

16 MR. DeLASKI: Looking for MIA from

17 shipments, to some degree.

18 And my second question was,

19 unfortunately, I had to step out this morning when

20 Eric spoke about the legal situation.

21 I know we have nothing new, I guess is

22 what the report was, from him since we met last week.
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1 It's just been a week.

2 I just want to make a couple of comments

3 on that. One is that Dave and I were just talking

4 about it would be really be helpful for us, I think,

5 to be thinking about, even though we're not getting

6 to the point of negotiating levels and dates yet. To

7 know what the realm of possibilities are, I think,

8 would help us all in terms of being able to think.

9 Because we're not going to go walk in

10 this room in two weeks and just work it all out if we

11 haven't worked it out. You know, people have bosses

12 they have organizations. They have to be able to

13 work up the chain of command and hopefully not do

14 everything on the cell phone in the hallway here.

15 So I would hope that we can get answers

16 more promptly or promptly, as promptly as possible.

17 And I made, and the other point, and

18 then I will just make a couple of points. I think we

19 have four -- Greg, I don't remember, I had to go out

20 -- we have four legal questions.

21 One was, can we do two metrics? That

22 was the first one. I would just observe that for the
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1 central air conditioner rule, DoE did two metrics for

2 residential central air conditioners, an SCEER and an

3 EER standard that was adopted via DoE regulation as a

4 result of an agreement, of a consensus agreement,

5 that was privately negotiated, not part of a public

6 regneg, but privately negotiated between the

7 efficiency advocates, many of whom are at this table,

8 and the manufacturers, many of whom or all of whom

9 are at this table.

10 So it's been done once before through a

11 DoE regulatory process based on a consensus. So

12 that's just a historical fact for two metrics.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: And how long ago was that,

14 that it was negotiated?

15 MR. DeLASKI: That was the final rule

16 issued in 2011 going into to effect this year, takes

17 effect January 1st of this year.

18 And then for terms of two levels, in my

19 recollection, DoE has done that twice in the past.

20 Once, in 2001, a final rule was issued for clothes

21 washers that went into effect in two stages, or two

22 different levels of efficiency took effect on two
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1 different dates. An initial standard took effect in

2 2004, and then a second stage, more stringent than

3 the first, took effect in 2007.

4 And that was issued pursuant as a result

5 or that was a -- it grew out of a joint agreement

6 that also was negotiated privately between various

7 organizations, including my own, and the home

8 appliance manufacturers, represented by the home

9 appliance manufacturers association.

10 And then again in 2010, a similar

11 agreement was entered into on clothes washers, again,

12 clothes washers, as the case turned out to be. That

13 was a two-stage standard that took effect, it's

14 taking effect, in 2014 and 2017.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. Eric has just

16 arrived.

17 MR. DeLASKI: He knows all of this.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

19 MR. DeLASKI: I'm simply pointing it out

20 I think, for the, so that all of us know that this

21 has been done before, and so 2014 and 2017, with the

22 second level being more stringent than the first.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: And you said there were

2 four points. So we have one, the two metrics; two,

3 the two levels.

4 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. So the other one is

5 timeframe. We asked the question, you know, can DoE

6 still be bound to the time, to three-year lead time?

7 And I would simply note in that case

8 that DoE has shown flexibility in leads times in some

9 prior rules. One example I would give is the

10 dishwasher rule that also was a result of a joint

11 recommendation privately negotiated between several

12 organizations, including my own, and the home

13 appliance manufacturers.

14 In that case, we negotiated and

15 recommended a lead time I think of maybe a year and

16 half or something. It was a very, very near-term

17 lead time, shorter than what would have been called

18 for by, indeed, it would have, probably would have

19 gone if DoE has done it through the normal regulatory

20 process.

21 There probably are other examples, but

22 that's one that comes to mine, because it was the
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1 manufacturers agreeing to a shorter lead time.

2 And then the last item was, Can DoE

3 develop a prescriptive measure on top of a

4 performance standard?

5 I'm not familiar with any incidents, any

6 examples, of that from the past. I look around the

7 table to Meg, but I don't think -- you know, I'll

8 rack my brain some.

9 But for first three I can think of

10 examples where it's been done in the past. For the

11 last one, I can't not through a DoE regulation.

12 Certainly, Congress has. The residential boiler

13 standard comes to mind.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: They are products that

15 are both in place, but yes, and one of them was set

16 by statute, that DoE set a performance standard and

17 kept the prescriptive standard in place.

18 MR. DeLASKI: Right.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's different than

20 what you're describing.

21 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. The first three I

22 can think of specific examples where DoE has acted
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1 under its regulatory authority. In each case, there

2 was a, there was some sort of recommendation that was

3 broadly represented by stakeholders.

4 In the fourth case, I can't. So I just

5 thought that would be helpful to put those examples

6 on the record. Because I think those opportunities,

7 those are things that will help us to negotiate, and

8 I think it would be helpful for us to have an answer

9 from the Department.

10 MR. McCADDEN: Mike McCadden.

11 Just to add, Andrew, to what you said,

12 on the prescriptive standard, there was one case in

13 boilers, where there was a negotiated standard which

14 included prescriptive standards for boilers that the

15 Department rejected because they did not have the

16 legislative authority for boilers to adopt a

17 prescriptive standard.

18 The question was whether or not it was

19 fixed by legislation, and it was eventually adopted

20 through legislation.

21 MR. DeLASKI: So unfortunately, we have

22 that one negative example on that. On that
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1 particular, I guess we have a negative. It was

2 actually proposed and then rejected in 2007.

3 And ultimately, Congress acted, but I

4 think we're trying to come to things here that the

5 Department can do around this table --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

7 MR. DeLASKI: -- before we pose the

8 questions.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Does anyone want to add

10 anything on that at this point?

11 (No response.)

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

13 We're back to where we were when we

14 adjourned for lunch, and I think it would be Navigant

15 returning, or is the -- oh, you are finished?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: So we'll be hearing from

18 --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Maybe, before we start,

20 I should go over the commercial framework, these

21 questions.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So Greg is --
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: I had some questions to

2 answer --

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- after lunch about

5 commercial warm air furnaces.

6 So yeah. I'm answering some questions

7 regarding commercial warm air furnaces that folks had

8 this morning.

9 The first one had to do with why the

10 average installed cost decreased relative to what you

11 saw last week, and the reason is that the shipping

12 costs were taken out of the average installed cost

13 here under the assumption that they would be covered

14 in commercial unitary air-conditioners.

15 The only cost, extra shipping cost

16 reflected here, is going from 82 percent thermal

17 efficiency to 92 percent, because that efficiency

18 change requires a change in the size of the unit.

19 Does anyone have any --

20 MR. DeLASKI: I'll follow up, then,

21 Greg. So then that would be a wash, right, because

22 it would be the same at every efficiency level?
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: From 80 to 82.

2 MR. DeLASKI: From 80 to 82, it's a

3 wash.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: But there's an increase

5 of $43 or $44 in going from 82 to 92.

6 MR. DeLASKI: Which is capturing --

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Captured a larger size

8 of the unit.

9 MR. DeLASKI: Which would not be

10 captured in the --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: In the CUAC, in the air

12 conditioner side, right.

13 MR. DeLASKI: So the bottom line,

14 whether you've added or not, the increment, the

15 bottom line, will just go right across and be

16 unchanged?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

18 MR. DeLASKI: Okay.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: The other question was,

20 again, if there's such small LC, life cycle savings,

21 especially relative to what you saw last week, why is

22 the national impact or national energy savings, why
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1 did that increase?

2 And the reason is, again, the increase

3 in the number of years, going from an average life of

4 18 to 26. But what I found out this morning is that,

5 unfortunately, the analysts used incorrect lifetime

6 values to come up with that 26-year value, so it

7 really should be 22.6 years, based upon the

8 information I provided you last week on air

9 conditioner product lifetimes.

10 So taking away those number of years

11 should, will definitely reduce the energy savings

12 number that you see here, and again, the question of

13 whether it's going to be below what you saw last

14 week, where I believe it was around .55 quads.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's .55 at TSL-4 last

16 week?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I believe so.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it will reduce all

19 of them across the board?

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right.

21 MR. TERZIGNI: Quick question. Mark

22 Terzigni with SMACCNA.
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1 So that average lifespan, just out of

2 curiosity, is that used in all the scenarios, or do

3 you -- has that varied from scenario, like based on

4 the size of the unit or the smaller unit, shorter

5 lifespan, larger units, larger life span?

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: The lifetime is assumed

7 to stay constant from baseline to the efficiency

8 level.

9 Now, again, as you'll hear in the

10 shipments analysis, as you increase the costs

11 associated with gain to a certain efficiency will

12 definitely have an impact on the repair versus

13 replace decision. That is, you'll get more folks

14 repairing rather than replacing their equipment when

15 it fails.

16 MR. TERZIGNI: Thanks.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: I do have information

18 on sort of where the energy use is concentrated in,

19 in terms of what building types, a couple of them.

20 One was, one is laboratories. They use a lot of, a

21 lot of energy. That was by far the biggest one, so

22 and of course, northern, northern regions of the U.S.
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1 use more energy than southern regions. That was to

2 your question, Jill, about, you know, where are these

3 big winners, right? And that's certainly one

4 building type where there's a big winner.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: But I won't disagree on

6 laboratories, but certainly, you're not using this

7 unit to heat those laboratories.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, in

10 practicalities --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- it is not. It's a

13 boiler system, likely, that is probably heating those

14 laboratories.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. What we're

16 trying --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: These aren't enough,

18 likely, to heat those laboratories.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. It represents a

20 small percentage of the overall sample.

21 Again, what we're, where we're getting

22 our information from is the CBECS 2003. Again, it's,
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1 it represents a small share.

2 MS. BOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: But it is in there,

4 according to CBECS.

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

6 You know, I would just point out, if you

7 think about what that -- those big energy users are

8 kind of the specialized -- it's make-up areas is what

9 you're looking at. I think we talked a little bit

10 about this. It's too complicated at this point to

11 really focus your analysis on looking at those units

12 rather than the bigger classes of equipment.

13 But essentially, there's a lot of

14 opportunity there, because you're bringing 100

15 percent outside air that might be really cold and

16 heating it up to at least room temperature before you

17 dump it into the space. And it presents a lot of

18 opportunities in that sub-class of equipment.

19 But I would say it's something to think

20 about in the future, is trying to separate those

21 classes of equipments where there might be

22 opportunity where there's less opportunity in the,
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1 you know, smaller increment and increasing efficiency

2 where, in that class, it might actually make more

3 sense.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, I don't know if

5 I can -- well, I will comment on that, that that's

6 more of like a product application sort of approach,

7 which, again, I think it's difficult to administer

8 when you have to base your analysis on product

9 classes, which are more based on some sort of set of

10 features, right, as opposed to where the equipment is

11 being used.

12 MR. STARR: Well, there are some

13 features to 100 percent outside air units, which

14 could distinguish, but --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from

16 Trane.

17 100 percent outside air, it is my

18 opinion that 100 percent outside air marketplace is

19 very fractionalized. It's served by several

20 different types of units, some of which are dedicated

21 for 100 percent outside air.

22 There is no test procedure for 100
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1 percent outside air. I don't know you're going to

2 bring in 8765 perfect air into this thing. That

3 doesn't happen.

4 You know, our estimates is, this is less

5 than 6 percent of the overall marketplace. It's

6 small, so I don't know why you're going to make the

7 Department go through a huge energy analysis on

8 something that's very small. Making it a separate

9 class isn't going to go anywhere.

10 MR. STARR: Yeah. I agree. It's too

11 difficult. It's just more the thought of trying to

12 focus your opportunity on where it's rather than

13 trying to, you know, try to move the whole market a

14 little bit and focus on the pieces.

15 But I agree. It does -- it seems too

16 complex and it's -- yeah. So I agree with you.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. That's all I had

18 on the follow-up questions on commercial warm air

19 furnaces, so I'll turn it over to Katie Coughlin to

20 talk about the updates to the energy use analysis for

21 air-conditioners.

22 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob. So before
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1 we get into that, so I go back then to we, can we

2 make some kind of a, put a stake in the ground

3 somewhere on the heating and say EL -- I forgot what

4 the number is -- but the 81? You know, hopefully,

5 we'll get something off the table.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want to finish that

7 thought? I mean a full sentence, what you meant?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I know what he

9 means.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me try to --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So are you, do you want

14 to vote on the level or what do you mean by put a

15 stake in the ground?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes. I was, I

17 thought you were going to say what I meant.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: When I hear stake, I

19 think about raise the steaks.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Beef.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So what I was

22 proposing or asking is, should we vote on 81 as being
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1 the level?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I don't think

3 anyone -- well, I --

4 MR. WHITWELL: Or do we need to vote on

5 it? I don't know.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I mean, I think

7 that's for the group. Obviously, this is something

8 to talk about, if people want to do that.

9 Or was there -- my understanding,

10 bringing these two together, there was maybe a reason

11 to do that was to kind of negotiate both of them.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Well, we can hold

13 off.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And in trading off, you

15 know --

16 MR. DeLASKI: I think that's what I

17 would say, as well. It strikes me as, let's get the

18 levels in due time. The numbers speak for

19 themselves. You know, you characterized earlier

20 today and the current -- you know, they're going to

21 change a little bit more, it sounds like, but they're

22 going to be essentially the same, right?
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1 But we want to try to bring the dates

2 together. We want to bring try to bring --

3 MR. WHITWELL: True.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MR. DeLASKI: An agreement is an

6 agreement. It's going to the whole, the dates and

7 the levels for the two classes, and I'd like to talk

8 about them as a package.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yeah. No problem.

11 I mean, date was going to be a separate thing, but

12 yep. Fine.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I was thinking

14 that the answers to the legal questions, too, might

15 play into a final vote on not only what but when and

16 --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I just thought we

18 had a lot of discussion about that. It would be nice

19 kind of just to clarify something. And I guess we're

20 thinking around 81, but we've got some more thinking.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: An 81 that performs like

22 an 82.6.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: You're tough.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because I like the

3 numbers, right? I'm just doing some math, that's

4 all.

5 MR. WHITWELL: All I can say is, we had

6 not tested so high.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So if we --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Lots of discrepancies

9 here. What can I say?

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only other question

11 I have for, actually, for my team, just to get this

12 on the record, so all these numbers reflect ADL 2015

13 at this point?

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because that's

16 important, because the price changes, the price

17 forecast changes, in ADL 2015 were a little bit

18 bigger than what I would have intuitively thought,

19 and so gas prices went down a little bit, but

20 electricity prices on average over the next --

21 through 2045 or whatever the number is, went up.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: So both natural gas and
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1 oil?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, oil is so small.

4 I realize it. I just was wondering.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I didn't look, but I

6 don't think it -- that would matter much.

7 But the electricity is going to matter,

8 I don't -- you know, it's more on the residential

9 side, so not for this group, but just for other

10 rulemakings in general, you know, there's nearly 6

11 percent increase in average over 30 years.

12 So it's a big deal to how it plays out

13 in these analyses that you're going to see.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and somebody

15 has got to pay to return those reliable coal units,

16 and replacing them with them flaking windows and

17 solar panels.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's not the reason

19 that they gave me, but that might be another factor.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: I think it's time for

21 Katie.

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So I'm going to
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1 just present a few slides on the energy use. As you

2 know, we take the output of the engineering analysis

3 and combine it with our building information and

4 prepare it as an input to the life cycle cost and

5 some downstream analyses.

6 So there's a few things that are just

7 kind of housekeeping, minor changes that I made to

8 kind of clean up the data, and then there's two

9 sensitivities that we'll discuss.

10 So one of the housekeeping issues was in

11 our -- you know, we took these last simulations and

12 then backed out the building loads, and in that

13 process, you end up with kind of a long tail of

14 extremely tiny cooling loads that occur at low

15 temperatures.

16 And this is something that Dick Lord had

17 commented on a few times. Essentially, I just went

18 through and eliminated that. And so if you had a

19 very tiny, tiny heating load -- or cooling load and

20 it was also in heating mode, I just eliminated the

21 cooling and switched the system mode to heating.

22 And similarly, if you had an extremely
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1 small cooling load and the fan, but only the fan on

2 otherwise, I took out the cooling load and called

3 that a ventilation hour.

4 So it makes an almost unnoticeable

5 difference to the results, as you expect. It just

6 kind of -- but it, for certain buildings, you're

7 getting things that looked very odd, and so it gives

8 you, and I think it gives you a better estimate of

9 the actual hours spent in the different modes in a

10 real building.

11 That was one thing, and that, if it had

12 an effect, it would slightly decrease the energy

13 consumption, and that's what that arrow means.

14 So the second issue was, we had been

15 going back and forth a bit on whether there should be

16 a degradation coefficient on the condenser fan. So

17 we settled that with the engineering team, and so we

18 are applying a different version of the analysis, a

19 degradation coefficient on the fan, the condenser

20 fan, but only when it cycles on and off, so only in

21 stage 1.

22 That also creates a small effect that
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1 tends to slightly increase the energy consumption.

2 And then the final thing is that in the

3 analysis that we presented last time, I had kind of

4 forced the number of units going into a building to

5 be an integer, which is, actually, it's a minor issue

6 for a 7 and a half, less over 15, but for the 30-ton

7 unit, you get some peculiar results because you have

8 a unit and it's very lightly loaded.

9 So for this analysis, I allowed sort of

10 increments of 2.5 times, which seems to be kind of

11 reasonable, given what the sizes are in the market.

12 And again, this would tend to lower slightly the part

13 loads and, therefore, lower the energy consumption,

14 because it lowers the degradation. But the impact

15 is, you know, just not worth worrying about.

16 So those are the just housekeeping

17 issues. And then, of course, we've added the 30-ton

18 analysis and I'll present those results.

19 But the two main things that we had

20 discussed in the last meeting are the sensitivity for

21 building with economizers, because we're not --

22 nobody can seem to really decide whether the
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1 economizers are actually working properly.

2 So the issue here is to see what

3 difference it makes if you assume like an infinitely

4 efficient economizer that just shuts the cooling off

5 when the exterior temperature is low.

6 And then the other issue was the

7 sensitivity on the load factors. So I will present

8 those results next. I will say, this is just the

9 revised -- I don't think we need to go through this.

10 The numbers really haven't changed that much, so this

11 is just these small changes I made to the energy use

12 analysis for the 7 and a half, 15, and unfortunately,

13 there's a typo.

14 There's always a typo somewhere, so this

15 is where it is this time. The slide you are looking

16 at is correct. The slide you have printed has --

17 there was an offset, so the EL-1 was printed in the

18 base case row, and et cetera, et cetera. So that

19 doesn't look right.

20 Essentially, these numbers, as I said,

21 are very close to what we had last time. And then

22 this is the first time you'll see the 30-ton numbers.
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1 And as with the 7 and a half and the

2 15-ton, the -- there is a significant change from the

3 NOPR, and we also now have these multiple paths where

4 you can see, for example, when you -- this sort of

5 speaks to an issue you discussed earlier, where a CAV

6 and a VAV have the same IEER. They will have very

7 different energy consumption associated with the fan.

8 I also mention that in this analysis,

9 we're following the convention we decided on

10 previously, where, at EL-3, we introduce a conversion

11 curb. So this is the energy consumption number at

12 EL-3 for this unit is including a conversion curb

13 that adds .35 to the building ESP.

14 Whoops. What happened?

15 MR. STARR: So this was that -- just

16 some quick questions. Louis Starr with NEEA.

17 So the number, you're still using the

18 static pressure of 1.3 and .7 -- .75 for 7 and a half

19 and then 1.25 for 15 and 30?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Not quite, no. So what

21 we have, in the building population, we have .75 and

22 1.25, so each building has one of those values
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1 associated with it.

2 And then the 7 and a half and 15 puts a

3 .2 increment to the ESP at EL-3 and above, but for

4 the 30-ton, the increment is .35.

5 MR. STARR: So .2 for the curb, or can

6 you --

7 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.

8 MR. STARR: -- at the lower tonnages,

9 and then at the larger tonnages, you're using .35?

10 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.

11 MR. DeLASKI: So just follow up on that,

12 Katie, so Detlef described this morning a different

13 approach determining, what I heard, anyway, was an

14 approach saying that you had curbs -- it was a

15 more -- it was a different approach determining where

16 you had a curb.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So that's, they

18 just developed that, so that's not implemented in the

19 LCC.

20 MR. DeLASKI: So that will that flow

21 through to the LCC?

22 MS. COUGHLIN: That's up to you guys to
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1 some extent. So it's a lot of work. It will slow us

2 down quite a bit, so it's a decision that you guys --

3 if you want us to do it, we'll do it, but we'll be

4 doing LCC for a long time.

5 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. I just want to make

6 that, so that -- but the more sophisticated, you

7 know, nuance approach that you describe here is just

8 EL-3 you get the curb, which the --

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean we do --

10 when Greg presents the LCC results, they're actually

11 adding the -- on the new construction component on

12 the market, there is no conversion curb.

13 But just for this particular energy use

14 number, I assumed that about the conversion curb,

15 yes.

16 MR. DeLASKI: So we're adding that,

17 which made -- I think I likely discussed this

18 morning, it may not happen for some manufacturers.

19 It's going to happen to some of the baseline, so

20 we're overestimating the impact.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Correct. We're sort of

22 doing an extreme case (inaudible) impact, but it
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1 comes in in the EL-3 only, yeah.

2 MR. DeLASKI: Yeah. Well, that's not

3 based just on an integer. It's going to, it's going

4 to make the EL-3 in hard look less advantageous than

5 I think it actually should look. We were actually

6 able to do the more complex analysis that you're

7 describing that follow Detlef's approach that he

8 described this morning.

9 My other question, I won't -- I have a

10 different, sort of a different topic, so if you were

11 on the same topic --

12 MR. STARR: You know, one though about

13 this is, maybe you could simplify what you're trying

14 to do and just look at the difference in pressure.

15 Anyway, just some thoughts about a different way to

16 approach it rather than trying to stick all the

17 numbers in there and adjust the baselines on all

18 those models. You can maybe look at the difference

19 between the EL level and the baseline and just adjust

20 that at a static pressure.

21 I don't know. It might be another way

22 to do it that's a simpler way that gets you the
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1 answer with less work.

2 MR. DeLASKI: I guess what I would

3 suggest is that, why don't we continue with what

4 we're doing here and, you know, at some point you

5 have to say it's good enough, right?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. For the time being.

7 MR. DeLASKI: It's good enough, and this

8 gives us the basis to say, you know, we can -- I

9 mean, I jump to the end here, and the basic of the

10 story as I see it is that we seem to be converging on

11 some alpha (sic) versions, and we can tweak them and

12 we're probably going to converge. And when you're

13 converging things, and you tweak them one way, you

14 tweak them the other way, you keep converging.

15 So that's a good thing. So I'm jumping

16 to the end here. So I have a lot of -- I'm not sure.

17 You know, again, we're trying to come to a

18 negotiation here. We're not trying to not get to

19 negotiation. We're not trying, I'm not coming at

20 this trying to say, I want to keep pushing on this.

21 Because John's going to decide later on

22 without us, right? If we don't get the consensus,
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1 then there's going to be -- they're going to keep

2 doing their work and they may or may not institute

3 further changes beyond what we, what we ask for.

4 So we don't have to nail down every last

5 little nail here.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree.

7 MR. STARR: You know, and I tend to

8 agree that if it doesn't change the analysis, perhaps

9 it's not important.

10 MR. DeLASKI: Well, it would change the

11 analysis. The question is, does it change it enough

12 to make it worth --

13 MR. STARR: Right. Right.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Put another way, we've

15 got to trade off time for impact.

16 I'm, frankly, very concerned, only

17 concerned, about the policy decision and the

18 implications of it, right?

19 And we keep shaving off a half a

20 percent, a nickel and a dime here and there.

21 You know, Andrew's right. It's not

22 going to change the policy decision. All it does is
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1 we keep spinning the wheel around and cranking out

2 models which, you know, it gets old after a while.

3 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas &

4 Electric Company.

5 Could you go back to the -- 15, is it,

6 one that's incorrect, you said, in our handout?

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

8 MR. HUNT: So can I still use the

9 handout to think about this last column, the total

10 KWH, or do --

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

12 MR. HUNT: -- I need your new table?

13 MS. COUGHLIN: No. So you should find,

14 basically, you just -- you're offset, right? So just

15 you just need to scribble it -- essentially, you're

16 missing the base case row and you have the first non17 base case row in its place, and then everything down

18 from there should be in order and so it's kind of a

19 cut-and-paste error.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So this number, these

21 numbers --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Delete, delete the last
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1 row and move everything down and add the top row.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

3 MR. HUNT: Thank you, Bob. I love it.

4 Thanks.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: I will move on, I guess,

6 to the --

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: I'm sorry, Katie, but

8 can I go back?

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Which one?

10 MR. DeLASKI: We're trying to jot the

11 numbers down.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Do you

13 want me to read them to you?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, all the numbers,

15 the numbers are all still okay, Andrew. You just got

16 to shift them.

17 MR. DeLASKI: Are we missing a row.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: The top row is missing.

19 Delete the bottom row, move everything

20 down and then add the top.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: For the revised only, the

22 top row for the revised. Yeah. The NOPR numbers are
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1 correct.

2 MR. DeLASKI: And then the other point I

3 wanted to make, and I don't want to belabor this, if

4 you go back to the 7 and a half ton unit and you look

5 at the change from EL-2.5 to EL-3.5, it bothers me a

6 lot that if you look at the total at KWH per unit,

7 it's rising, all right?

8 When I see IEER going from 14.5 to 15.8

9 and consumption rising from 13,139 KWH to 13,727 KWH,

10 it bothers me.

11 Now, we had an explanation last time of

12 the engineering behind that. In fact, the

13 engineering is right here in the table, the energy

14 consumption table. The energy is going up somewhere

15 and the cooling energy is going down.

16 And I know we said our ground rules that

17 were given to us by the parent committee, by the

18 Department, were to leave the test method unchanged,

19 and I think those were good ground rules, but it

20 points to a problem, and I think the problem that we

21 all probably, you know, I think, if I was a

22 manufacturer, it would concern me that I'd have a
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1 unit that'd have a better rating and have more

2 consumption.

3 What are we going to do about that? I

4 don't think it's an analytic problem. I think we

5 agreed last time it was not a problem with the

6 analysis, but it does strike me as a problem.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Andrew, and this is David

8 at Allied, and the issue is that much of the energy

9 here is outside of the test metric. And I'm not

10 disagreeing, you know, for future purposes,

11 identifying that issue.

12 The other thing is, there's more than

13 one way to solve the problem. You know, you can get

14 different energy results when you include things like

15 fan power, because when you take the IEER metric, you

16 can design it several different ways and you will

17 have differences in power that will drive these types

18 of results.

19 MR. DeLASKI: You can do that, it being

20 the unit?

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh.

22 MR. DeLASKI: If we had -- go ahead,
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1 Bob.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So I was just going

3 to maybe draw an analogy.

4 So if you look at our current metric,

5 which is EER, right, so it's full load, you could

6 have two designs that have the same EER. One is a

7 fixed-speed compressor and fan, and the other is

8 variable speed compressor and fan. You're going to

9 have vastly different energy usage between the two,

10 right?

11 You look at its operation over

12 (inaudible) so I think you've got a similar thing

13 going on here.

14 MR. DeLASKI: But with higher -- but the

15 EER with higher, would higher EER associate with

16 lower energy consumption? I mean, this is -- it's

17 different.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I could take, I

19 could take a unit that's a little bit higher in EER

20 and if it's fixed-speed, compare it to a variable

21 speed and you still might have more energy

22 consumption on the higher EER one, right?
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1 I mean, it's, the metric, it's not

2 perfect, right? So it's capturing, it's showing that

3 there's more, there's more energy savings than there

4 would be if it was just a full load and it's

5 capturing that in the metric, but it's not perfect.

6 And there are trade-off you can make in

7 refrigeration system efficiency versus fan

8 efficiency, and since the data here is including the

9 fan operation all year round, which the metric does

10 not, that can show up there.

11 MR. DeLASKI: Right. So to get the

12 reduced IEER, you have less -- you're better off

13 working on the cooling side.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Not necessarily. Not

15 necessarily. I mean, what manufacturers, I think

16 most manufacturers, have done in order to meet the

17 ASHRAE 90.1 IEER requirement, they're working on the

18 fan side.

19 MR. DeLASKI: But then -- so we're --

20 but that, this shows us a little, a range, at least

21 in the 7 and a half ton unit, where at least in this

22 example, it wasn't an example, but --
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So you are seeing

2 an effect, to some degree, in the change in ESP from

3 3 to 3.5, right?

4 So the ESP increase drives the fan

5 energy use up, and then, depending on the relevant

6 increase in the fan efficiency, you're either going

7 to see that total number go up or down.

8 Now, if we move to a more sort of

9 distribution of curb ESPs at each EL, it will smooth

10 this out a little bit, but you're not going to get

11 away from this effect, because as you move to higher

12 ELs, you're going to be putting that higher ESP in

13 more and more of the sample.

14 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. Since we're not

15 capturing -- this is Andrew again -- but since we're,

16 since the metric captures some of the fan hours but

17 not all of the fan hours, we're going to continue to

18 see this.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: This is not even the

20 metric. This is the conversion curb, really, which

21 is completely separate from the test procedure.

22 So this is like an installation
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1 condition which is just creating a condition that

2 changes the energy use of the unit. So you could

3 have the same unit without the conversion curb and

4 you'll see fan energy go down as the fan efficiency

5 improves.

6 So really, it's an installation

7 condition. It's not part of the test procedure.

8 It's just, it's something that, we try to account for

9 it because the consumer will have to pay this bill,

10 right? But I don't know what you can do within the

11 current process about this.

12 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

13 So I think the answer your question,

14 what should we do with it, Andrew, is that we should

15 work toward the next round to have a new test

16 procedure for the next round of energy conservation

17 standards so that we can properly account for all the

18 aspects.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. There has already

20 been some side discussions about that fact.

21 MR. DOPPEL: I just -- Paul Doppel with

22 Mitsubishi.
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1 I just have a question on the slide.

2 You said that this was corrected and ours os

3 different?

4 MS. COUGHLIN: That was the 15-ton only.

5 MR. DOPPEL: 15. Okay. 15-ton. I'm

6 with you. I'm with you.

7 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas &

8 Electric and California IOUs.

9 So this is my chance once again to say

10 we need EER, and we're very, very peak sensitive so

11 that again, I plead that we have the two numbers.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. In that

14 context, last night I was just reviewing some

15 literature for something called the California

16 Cooling Challenge -- I think that's it's name --

17 which is trying to look more wholistically at units,

18 which units which use indirect condenser

19 evaporative -- inter-cooling -- use condenser cooling

20 and a variety of other technologies to get a unit

21 which most hours of the year is not using its

22 compressor. So its fans are continuing to run, it's
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1 continuing to provide services, but I think this is

2 one of the drivers for the point that was made by

3 Rusty that our rating method is decreasingly capable

4 of describing the equipment we'll be installing.

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

6 So away from the curb adapter things, it

7 could change the analysis, but I have to skip to the

8 end of the slides to see how it changes everything,

9 the policy decision, as John describes.

10 One of the other things is, on the

11 static pressures, I thought we talked about maybe

12 adjusting those potentially up. I mean, I know

13 you're using, from your last models, you're using

14 1.25 and .75. But is there a thought about changing

15 or is that just to change the change the overall

16 energy use and not the relative magnitudes?

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. We looked at. We

18 did not find any evidence that we should change our

19 numbers. So there was some work done by PNNL, and we

20 looked at that, but it did not seem to indicates that

21 what we're using was reasonable, so we're --

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi. This is Greg.
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1 We looked into those NRIL (sic) building

2 prototypes that are used in 90.1, and for constant

3 air volume buildings, they use 2.5 inches of total

4 static pressure and 4 inches for variable air volume

5 buildings which assume, you know, mixing boxes and

6 the increased external static pressure that you would

7 have with the true VAV buildings.

8 So that also seems as a validation that

9 the numbers that we're using of .75 and 1.25 are

10 reasonable, again, because those are total static.

11 MR. STARR: Right. Right. In other

12 words, the total static would include the fan, the

13 cooling -- I'm sorry -- the cooling soil, the

14 filters, and are you assuming about one inch on that?

15 Is that what you're coming back with on that for the

16 internal to the unit?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, I don't

18 have that information on those building prototypes,

19 and I don't know if, Detlef, if you can comment on

20 what the internal statics might be, but --

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we haven't been

22 looking at that, but I think we've heard from Dick
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1 Lord that one inch is a representative number, and I

2 would assume that applies to a stock unit without

3 the, say, the highest efficiency filters.

4 And then one other point on those NRIL

5 models is that I think that that PNNL report does not

6 really distinguish whether those are actually

7 packaged units or a central system with chilled water

8 coil type units.

9 MR. STARR: So why would that make a

10 difference? Are you talking about the internal

11 static speed difference or the --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Big difference.

13 MR. STARR: -- package? More rolled

14 coils?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. STARR: But in a packages, 1 inch

17 seems reasonable.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: One inch is reasonable.

19 I'm not going to make, I mean, central station air

20 handler is totally a different animal. Sorry.

21 MR. STARR: And for the prototypes, is

22 that, the prototype's the small office, I assume, is
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1 the one she's using, is that the 7 and a half ton, or

2 which units do they best approximate the PNNL models?

3 Are they 2.5 for all the models -- or the 7.5 for the

4 PNNL models that approximate the building types?

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, it was -- sorry.

6 This is Greg again.

7 It was based more on when there was a

8 constant air volume building or a variable air volume

9 building. So again, the 2 and a half static, it

10 wasn't distinguishing between the capacity of the

11 unit. It was more, it was focused on the type of

12 system.

13 MR. STARR: I would just point out that

14 2 and a half minus 1 is 1 and a half, and you're

15 using 1 and a quarter and three-quarters, so, I mean,

16 I admit that one and a half or one and a quarter, you

17 don't need to sweat the details on that, but the

18 difference between one and a half and three-quarter

19 is a factor, too.

20 So perhaps -- okay. But I think,

21 essentially, though, it would just show additional

22 fan energy here right? And it wouldn't necessarily
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1 change the relative magnitudes of performance of

2 this.

3 Is that your take on it, Katie?

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, again,

5 it's a little hard to -- I mean, as you go up in EL,

6 it really would depend, it sort of changes the

7 weighting of the cooling and the energy in the fan,

8 so that changes the weighting of the efficiency

9 improvements on those two components and it's

10 somewhat unpredictable what it will do as a function

11 of EL, but it would tend to drive you further and

12 further away from the IEER giving you a good

13 prediction of energy use, I would think.

14 That's it? So in the last meeting, we

15 agreed that we should look at the way that the energy

16 use by the units is distributed over exterior

17 temperature, and then based on that, we would think

18 about what to do with economizers.

19 So the analysis that we did is we create

20 a set of temperature bins for the outdoor dry bulb

21 temperature, and then we just go through this hourly

22 simulation files. And in each hour you have the dry
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1 bulb temperature, so you assign that temperature to

2 one of the temperature bins. And then we just

3 calculate these totals, considered the distribution

4 of the energy use or the heat load or whatever across

5 those bins and then what I'm going to show you are

6 aggregate results for the building sample, the 1033,

7 where I'm just using the CBECS building weights. I

8 haven't tried to convert this to the generalized

9 building sample. It doesn't seem to be worth the

10 trouble of doing that.

11 And so this is the picture that you get.

12 I think I'm only showing 7 and a half ton. They're

13 all kind of qualitatively similar. So this is the

14 heat load.

15 Essentially, the head load, the total

16 heat load is the building load plus the fan load. So

17 when you go to 15-ton, you might have a slightly

18 different fan load, but it makes almost no

19 difference.

20 And then the index on the bottom is the

21 region. If you're familiar with census division

22 indices, so that's New England; Mid-Atlantic; East
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1 North Central; West North Central; 5 is

2 South-Atlantic -- that's a lot of cooling -- 6 is

3 West South Center, Texas, et cetera -- or East South

4 Central; 7 is West South Central, so 7 is Texas; 8 is

5 Mountain; 9.1 is Pacific Northwest and 9.2 is

6 California.

7 And the blue and the red are below 55

8 degrees, so the blue is sort of, it's very cold.

9 Somehow, the simulations are predicting some cooling

10 even when the temperature is below 35 degrees.

11 The red is a little more moderate, and

12 then the purple, the blue and orange at the top are

13 perfectly reasonable to assume the system is heating

14 there, and then there's kind of, you know, the 55 to

15 65 is a little bit unclear, if you had an economizer

16 on your building, you know, would it really be

17 needing cooling or not.

18 And I have looked at the data for the

19 economized building and the non-economized

20 separately, and it's extremely difficult to pick out

21 any clear signal about whether the economizer

22 actually works.
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1 Just two, this is another view of the

2 same data. So this slide here shows you each region

3 divided by percentage.

4 So in general, it's very reasonable that

5 in the cooler regions, you're operating more in lower

6 temperatures, so in that sense, it all looks fine.

7 But as I said, it's not really helpful

8 for trying to come up with a kind of correction to

9 the economizer.

10 So instead of trying to correct the

11 economizer, we thought we could do the sensitivity

12 where you could get rid of the cooling load

13 completely when the outdoor temperature is below 60

14 degrees.

15 It's a more or less arbitrary number.

16 Greg and I sat down and he said 55, I said 65, 60, so

17 we picked 60.

18 So once you pick that thing, it's very

19 simple just to, again, I go through the hourly data

20 and if the temperature outside is below 60 degrees

21 and you are in a building that has an economizer, I

22 just zero out the cooling load, so we leave the fan
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1 running.

2 And results are here for -- this is just

3 a scatter clot. So one point is each building at a

4 given EL and overall, you know, you can see this

5 actually does not have a very large impact.

6 So the solid red line is just a

7 diagonal, and then the blue dots are what

8 happens -- I've got the energy consumption for all

9 hours on the horizontal and the energy consumption

10 with the, what I'm calling them hot hours on the

11 vertical. So it tends to drop the energy use, as you

12 would expect, but the quantity, the change in

13 magnitude, is very small.

14 And then finally, the table here may be

15 a little more informative. So this is, again, I go

16 through the sample. I now apply the weights

17 associated with those CBECS buildings. I just look

18 at the total reduction in energy use in each region.

19 Well, now, this is weighted. This is for the country

20 and this is as a function of EL.

21 So it goes down by anywhere from, I

22 think it's 3 to 8 or 9 percent, depending on the
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1 efficiency level.

2 So this is a sensitivity. I'm not

3 necessarily advocating that we should zero out all

4 these loads, but personally, this is not something

5 that I would concern myself with. A few percent

6 across the board is not necessarily a big deal.

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

8 So essentially what you're saying is 8

9 percent -- you know, I don't know what, the average

10 of these numbers, but anywhere from 5 to 8 percent is

11 due to the economizer and so what you're saying is

12 that's the effect it would have. Whether you looked

13 at whether some of the economizer is working,

14 basically, it is a 68 percent weighting of the whole

15 cooling energy. Is that what you're saying?

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So essentially, we,

17 so our simulations have an economizer in them, and

18 there's been this discussion of whether that

19 represents real economizers.

20 So this is saying, if every economizer

21 in the population was absolutely perfect and you

22 never, ever, ever needed to cool below 60 degrees,
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1 this is the change in your total annual energy use

2 that you would get.

3 So, of course, real economizers are not

4 perfect, and the kind of -- if there's something

5 wrong with the current method, it could never be

6 wrong by more than these percentages and probably by

7 substantially less than these percentages.

8 MR. STARR: I guess the other point of

9 this chart is to show there's not much spread depend

10 on whether you have a base unit or really efficient

11 unit.

12 Well, I think in general, like your zero

13 at a 7 and a half ton, you're at 5.8, and at your

14 base one, where at a really efficient unit, you're at

15 4.2, so the effect of economizers working better or

16 working worse, you don't really see much change in

17 your energy use across the -- is that --

18 MS. COUGHLIN: I mean, this, because

19 we're not affecting the cooling load, we're not

20 affecting the fan load, that variability has more to

21 do with the relative contribution of those two to the

22 total energy use.
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1 So you have, for example, a higher

2 impact at the EL-1 when you have a VAV, because the

3 fan is a lower part of the total energy use.

4 MR. STARR: So that really, the only

5 thing -- I should say, is it your take that the only

6 thing that's really happening here by saying

7 economizers work or don't work, you're really just

8 affecting the total amount of energy that's used but

9 not the relevant magnitudes between the equipment?

10 So in other words, your total national

11 energy savings, if you assume a certain amount of

12 economizers not working, that number goes up, right?

13 Because you could have been getting cooling or pre14 cooling when you were not. So instead of whatever

15 you predicted as 11.7 quads, maybe it's a number a

16 little bit higher or a little bit lower, depending on

17 whether your economizer assumptions are correct. Is

18 that the only change that, in your opinion, you're

19 making?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, again,

21 this is too bound, because there is a lot of

22 discussion about, you know, how economizers really
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1 lower the energy use. And so this, in my opinion,

2 kind of proves that they can't lower it more than a

3 few percent, even if they worked perfectly.

4 And again, we're using the fraction of

5 economizers from CBECS, so we know that. So really,

6 this is just to kind of hammer home the point that we

7 don't really think the economizer issue is

8 significant for the energy consumption.

9 And, yeah, since it's quite uniform

10 across ELs, it's not going to change the behavior of

11 the energy savings.

12 MR. STARR: There is one thing I was --

13 well, I guess this is on the cooling. I was

14 expecting in the 30 time, in which you have a VAV

15 unit in some of your higher units, I was thinking you

16 were going to have more savings. But that actually

17 happened on the fan side, not on the compressor side

18 from the precooling. So that would maybe show up

19 differently.

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. You really can't

21 say anything about savings from this chart. That's

22 not -- yeah. This is, again, just across the board,
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1 you know, what is the absolutely maximum error you

2 might be introducing by not perfectly representing an

3 economizer. And, as I said, the likely error is

4 probably much closer to a fraction of this. I mean,

5 we're not convinced there is any error at all in the

6 economizer, so again, you know, this is just a bound.

7 MR. STARR: You mean your economizer

8 assumption; is that what you're saying?

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, you know, we don't

10 really have the information to get to those details

11 of how the modeling was done, but it was modelled,

12 and, you know, with that 30 percent failure rate and

13 that seems like it was a reasonable approach and --

14 yeah.

15 MR. STARR: I got it. Thanks.

16 MS. WALTNER: I'm just curious. Looking

17 back in the last meeting and meetings before we

18 looked at the differences in the cooling load for a

19 cooled square footage, I'm looking at how the percent

20 difference in those numbers compares to that, these

21 numbers here.

22 Is that the right comparison to be
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1 making? I mean, there, you know, the average

2 difference was about 25 percent between the

3 economized or non-economized buildings, and these

4 numbers look lower, which --

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Well, if you

6 multiply that by .3, you're getting in around the

7 right ballpark, because those are roughly 30 percent

8 of the buildings.

9 So comparing an economized to a non10 economized building, you get 20-25 percent, when you

11 consider that the economized buildings are one-third

12 of the population.

13 And then I think there's no question in

14 my mind personally that an economized building is

15 cooling when the temperature is up in the 70s, so

16 there's also that.

17 MS. WALTNER: Thank you.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: So we do want a decision

19 before we go on what, you know, what the, how the

20 committee would like to proceed for the treatment of

21 economizers in the analysis.

22 If that's it on this, I will move on to
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1 the next slide. So this is the load factor issue.

2 And again, I'll just recap very briefly what the

3 question was or what the issue is, is again, we're

4 treating our, however many units we have in a

5 building, we're operating it as a single system.

6 We know that real buildings have

7 multiples loads, and that's not the way they operate.

8 So again, the idea here is to do a

9 sensitivity that looks at what happens when you

10 change the way the load is distributed across your

11 units.

12 So the only, the only way that it

13 impacts the energy use is through the calculation of

14 this degradation factor, and it has a very small

15 effect because, essentially, the real driver on

16 energy consumption is the amount of heat that you

17 have to remove, and that doesn't change so you're

18 really just sort of saying your degradation factor is

19 changing a little bit.

20 So when I did this particular

21 sensitivity analysis, I applied the reloading to the

22 upper stage only, and I only applied -- obviously, if
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1 you've got more than two units in a building, then

2 you have a choice about which one is going to get

3 loaded.

4 And again, the idea is to say, if I have

5 a building in which there are ten units and I'm in

6 the upper stage, whatever it may be, and I only need

7 four units to meet the load, four plus a little bit,

8 I'll put all that load on four units, and then I have

9 only one unit being degraded.

10 And sort of cutting to the final answer

11 here, this is the -- again, I'm using a similar

12 metric -- this is the resulting change in total

13 energy use represented here by region at the

14 different tonnages.

15 But this is just the base case. I

16 didn't do this for the standards cases. But again,

17 you would expect them to be the same.

18 So it's a really minor impact. It's

19 consistent with what I expected, so again, we're

20 looking at a difference of sort of .1 to, at the

21 most, 2 percent. And on a national basis, it's

22 essentially 1 percent.
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1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and

2 California IOUs.

3 I move that we accept the analysis for

4 annual energy consumption without requiring it to be

5 redone, taking account of these two factors or, put

6 another way, I move that we not request that LBNL

7 redo their analysis to include these two issues.

8 MR. BANTLE: Should we take a vote?

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's a great

10 idea.

11 MR. HUNT: We need a second.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I'll second it.

13 MR. HUNT: Debate? This is Marshall.

14 Again, any numbers I look at, I always

15 have an uncertainty bar, and these are within any

16 kind of uncertainty bar that I would apply to the

17 numbers. Thanks.

18 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

19 You know, it's like the economizer.

20 While in reality, I think it's more than 33 percent,

21 I think, Dick and the manufacturers thought it was

22 less than 33 percent. It seems to me a reasonable
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1 number. 33 seems like a reasonable number, and

2 that's how you've done your analysis, so I'm happy

3 with the economizer, using the analysis that you had

4 in originally.

5 And in the case of this chart up here,

6 I'm not so much on to this particular issue. If the

7 numbers are right, it doesn't seem like it makes much

8 difference right away, so I would be in favor of

9 that, as well.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and my

11 version of sensitivity analysis is to see what the

12 manufacturers are thinking about the motion.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

14 I guess my thought is that the numbers,

15 it is relatively consistent with the analysis. I

16 mean, it's expected to be single percentage point

17 differences, and in the interest of moving on, it

18 wouldn't bother me to accept not making any further

19 changes, as long as we can remember that when we go

20 to the negotiating values, that there is some fudge

21 factor there.

22 Does that make sense?
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1 MR. DeLASKI: Well, it makes sense in

2 the fact that there's fudge factors going in multiple

3 directions here. That was my point on the earlier

4 issue about the curb.

5 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt.

6 I think of it more as an uncertainty. I

7 don't particularly like fudge.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane.

9 Yes. In light of moving forward, I

10 would agree. I think what we have to note here is

11 that in future rulemakings and in future analysis,

12 these things need to be considered up front.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And in speaking to

15 that -- this is John with DoE -- so there's, you

16 know, in every analysis, there's a series of

17 assumptions that analysts have to make for better or

18 for worse.

19 We do our best to do a lot of

20 uncertainty analysis, and we put a lot of effort in

21 to doing these Monte Carlos simulations that span the

22 breadth of what's out there.
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1 So, you know, looking at a point

2 estimate in anything is really dangerous. But I

3 think what we've shown here, we've done our best to

4 do some sensitivity to sort bound the reality of the

5 numbers.

6 Personally, I'm comfortable with single,

7 you know, low single digits, so I would think we

8 could move off of this point unless somebody else

9 doesn't like it.

10 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

11 You know, I would point out that we're

12 not changing LBNL's analysis at this point with the

13 curb, which we just heard about two or three hours

14 ago, which there may be as much as a factor of 2 on

15 that.

16 The static pressures that are being used

17 in the model are pretty conservative on the low side

18 in terms of the current 90.1 best design models are

19 using a factor of 25 percent to 100 percent more in

20 the static pressures, and that older buildings even

21 used more static pressures in the past, which has a

22 certain amount of -- so, I mean, to my mind, some of
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1 these numbers are squishy in the sense that I think

2 the energy efficiency would be or higher levels would

3 be may be better representative of that.

4 So, I mean, I'm willing to accept the

5 numbers just because it's for a policy decision that

6 we're making. I don't -- I mean, I think my general

7 feeling is that if the numbers were more accurate, it

8 would show or tend to favor the higher efficiency

9 levels.

10 But since -- when we go back to the end

11 of the thing, it doesn't really change the magnitude

12 of the relative magnitudes between the numbers. It

13 doesn't seem to me that it's important.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Great. This is John

15 from DoE.

16 And that was my point earlier, that I

17 think that the relative position of the TSLs and the

18 policy decision to negotiate here, you know, you can

19 slide them all around, but I think where they fit in

20 the queue and how we all negotiate that level doesn't

21 change. Instead of 11 quads, maybe it's 13 quads,

22 whatever.
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1 MR. DeLASKI: And I agree. That has

2 been said, but I just wanted to second Jill's point

3 that, you know, of course, right, if you were to

4 start again fresh from where we sit today, we've all

5 learned things, including the analysts, that you

6 would maybe do things a little bit -- you would learn

7 and build it from at the beginning. You know, that's

8 part of the learning process.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: So should we have a vote

10 on this, see if is there a consensus? Let's see.

11 Who would like to state what the subject is, that the

12 issue?

13 MR. HUNT: The proposal is that the

14 group will not request that LBNL redo the analysis to

15 take into consideration the impact of either the load

16 factor or the exclusion of cool hours, as shown in

17 tables on 54, 52 and 54 of our handout.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it thumbs up and thumbs

19 down?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Thumbs up and thumbs

21 down. How about let's show a showing of thumbs.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Diane has a thumb on the
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1 phone, also.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Diane has a thumb. Okay.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm assuming she has

4 thumbs.

5 MR. HUNT: I saw her.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: It's unanimous.

7 MR. FREEMAN: Any comments from those on

8 the webinar.

9 MS. JAKOBS: No. My thumb was up.

10 MR. FREEMAN: Thank you, Diane.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And thank you,

12 Marshall, for phrasing that.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp.

14 I guess one of the questions I had that

15 comes from my mind is in the whole process, in the

16 process, Louis (sic) an RFI, gathers information and

17 he goes back, does an analysis, and the first time

18 any of the stakeholders see information is at the

19 NOPR.

20 So when the information is being vetted

21 for the first time by the DoE's contractors, that

22 really would be the ideal time for stakeholders to
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1 have input, but yet we don't get to see, any of the

2 stakeholders, get to see anything until the NOPR is

3 complete.

4 So there something that we can do where

5 there's some more interactions between the DoE and

6 contractors and stakeholders between the RFI and the

7 NOPR so that we can address some of this?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: John from DoE.

9 So normally, there is actually a pre10 analysis where that actually takes place.

11 In this case, given the statutory

12 requirement and the time we had, or that the NOPR

13 had, we did the RFI for the things we thought were

14 most important for us to gather information on.

15 Maybe these two things didn't make the

16 cut. I'm not sure. You know, we used the building

17 stimulation models that were available, again, due to

18 where we were in the statutory requirement that we

19 had in place.

20 So yeah. I mean, we're doing, we've

21 done new things where we've put out NODAs and we've

22 put out spreadsheets early for a few rulemakings, and
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1 we're trying to do more of that where we get more

2 comment.

3 As for the interaction, in a normal

4 rulemaking setting, there, you know, there is the APA

5 rules. Eric can talk about that. We have ex parte

6 communications that can happen at any time. You have

7 the NDAs available to you with our contractors that

8 you can exercise at any time in the process.

9 I think we're open within the bounds of

10 the law to do any, anything that gives us more

11 information, absolutely, as long as we're not

12 breaking any of the APA rules, absolutely.

13 MR. WHITWELL: So John, this is Bob from

14 Carrier.

15 So should we, I mean, do you think that

16 in the future, commercial rulemakings would have the

17 NODAs come out?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think the

19 normal process, if there's not a statutory

20 requirement to do something very quick, which there

21 was in this case -- I mean, we were under the gun,

22 frankly. We weren't given a lot of time to get the
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1 NOPR out, definitely not enough time to do our

2 normally preliminary analysis or a framework, even,

3 that we do for a lot of rulemakings.

4 It wasn't that we didn't want to get

5 more information out there. It's just we just,

6 frankly, didn't have the time.

7 Oh, Charlie voted thumbs up, as well,

8 just for the record.

9 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs,

10 and I was kind of worried about, there's a comparison

11 made between 90, ASHRAE 90.1 against, and it seems

12 that all of Dick Lord's efforts to compare what the

13 (inaudible) for the DoE analysis versus the 90.1 was

14 really very insightful, and it seemed like we

15 shouldn't be doing that right away, early on, that

16 there should be --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would point to any

18 data. I mean, I don't, we don't have to pick on

19 certain parts of the analysis, but it would be very

20 nice in all rulemakings to be able to get shipment

21 data early on. It would be nice to get whatever

22 data. It just doesn't always happen.
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1 Sometimes it's at the end, but at least

2 we're still able to get it into the rulemaking

3 process.

4 You know, I think where we're sitting

5 today, we've looked at the numbers, we've done

6 sensitivities. I think by the vote, it looks like

7 everybody is pretty comfortable with where we are, at

8 least with the numbers, which I think is good.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's move ahead, then.

10 Let's see. Greg? Katie? Where are we

11 in your presentation?

12 First, thank you, Katie.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why don't we take a

14 break.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, we want to take a

16 break. Okay. Ten-minute break, come back soon

17 thereafter. Thank you. We're off the record now.

18 (Recess at 2:46 p.m., resuming at 3:07

19 p.m.)

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Come on, everybody. Let's

21 get started. Take a seat. I have a virtual whip.

22 No. Anyway, we're back, we're on the
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1 record, and we're going to see what we can do until

2 we adjourn today at 5:00.

3 MR. SACHS: If we're good, can we go

4 home early?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but that's a big if.

6 Back to Greg. I'm sorry.

7 MR. TERZIGNI: Back to our discussion on

8 pressures on the duct system, I sent out a couple of

9 --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Mark.

11 MR. TERZIGNI: I'm sorry. This is Mark

12 Terzigni with SMACCNA.

13 We sent out a few questions for static

14 pressures near the fan return supply side. The short

15 story is, based on the response I got back, if we

16 average those out, they're really just slightly over

17 an inch in most cases, like 1.15. You know, I took,

18 I got a couple of respondents, so I averaged out the

19 numbers. So I mean, you guys are using one inch, I

20 think, is what --

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: .75 and 1.25.

22 MR. TERZIGNI: Right. My number lands
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1 right in the middle of those, and those are measured.

2 Again, these are TAB guys telling me, We

3 can't measure that close to the fan. They're

4 slightly downstream or slightly upstream of the fan

5 itself, where the flow is straightened out enough

6 where they can get a good measurement.

7 So I would say that the numbers that

8 you're offering are reasonable.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

10 Do we need to vote on that or we can

11 pretty much accept that?

12 MR. STARR: I think we already voted on

13 it.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Thanks, Louis.

15 Okay. Moving right along, Greg?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to go over

17 updates to the life cycle cost and payback periods

18 analysis for CUAC.

19 Again, you've seen this Chevron chart

20 many times before, but, again, the life of a cost

21 analysis takes inputs from the energy use and

22 engineering to come up with consumer impacts to folks
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1 that use this type of equipment in their buildings.

2 So you saw this chart last week. Just

3 focus on the bolded text, which is the change that

4 was made for this iteration of the life cycle cost

5 analysis.

6 Here, for 30 tons, on the VAV designs,

7 they were applied to all equipment after EL-2.5. So

8 for EL-3 and above, we only had one design that was

9 applied to all, all buildings, and that's whether it

10 was constant air volume or variable air volume.

11 I should repeat that, for 7 and a half

12 tons and 15 tons, there were multiple design paths

13 for constant air volume buildings and variable air

14 volume buildings up through EL-2, but then after

15 EL-2, there is only one type of design that was

16 applied to all buildings.

17 A big change from last week is that I

18 looped back with Taylor Engineering to talk about the

19 diffuser replacement issue for constant air volume

20 buildings that get a variable air volume piece of

21 equipment, and I'll be talking about this later in a

22 more in-depth slide, but based upon that discussion
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1 and the source material they gave me, I've taken out

2 diffuser replacements from consideration for this

3 analysis, and I'll ask you to hold off your questions

4 until I get to that slide to explain why.

5 On conversion curb costs, last week you

6 saw that we used just $1,000. Now we have numbers

7 that are a function of the three capacity classes, so

8 I'll ask -- you'll see a slide. I'll wait 'til you

9 see that slide so I don't steal any thunder from

10 myself.

11 On the repair costs, we implemented

12 non-compressor repair costs in the seventh year

13 because it slides and compressor repairs in the 13th

14 year. In last week's results, everything is in the

15 tenth year.

16 No changes to equipment lifetime,

17 because we received no data, no new shipments data,

18 from AHRI. So again, this is another sort of request

19 for that data. Again, it's getting pretty late in

20 the game now, so at some point I guess we'll have to

21 decide whether or not we should proceed without that

22 data or not.
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1 MR. DeLASKI: I guess this is a

2 question -- Nick's gone.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry. I just looked

4 up.

5 MR. DeLASKI: Are you guys looking for

6 him, too?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

8 MR. DeLASKI: So we thought we were

9 getting (inaudible) by the end of last week he told

10 us at the last meeting. I don't know whether any

11 members know. We can wait until Nick's back.

12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with

13 SMACCNA.

14 What is the current lifetime? Is it

15 back to the numbers that we talked about?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The ones that

17 you saw last week with the averages of 21 years for 7

18 and a half and 15 tons and 33 or 34 years for 30

19 tons.

20 So again, that's coming straight out of

21 our calibration with the shipments model, looking at

22 historical shipments.
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1 MR. TERZIGNI: Again, I reached out to a

2 group and asked the question. Most came back with an

3 answer of 15 to 20 years across the span. A couple

4 of respondents did say that the lifespan tends to

5 increase as the tonnage goes up, so it correlates, at

6 least, with your approach.

7 I can work on getting more of those

8 kinds of numbers as quickly as possible in lieu of

9 shipment data, if that helps.

10 MR. MISLAK: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I

11 guess the question --

12 MR. TERZIGNI: Shipment data?

13 MR. MISLAK: So basically, we have data

14 from most of the manufacturers. We're missing two of

15 the major manufacturers, but we do have the majority

16 of it that we could share.

17 We also have some information on

18 economizers that we could share and then we have some

19 total numbers that we could potentially share. I

20 need to have one more conversation with the

21 manufacturers to kind of clear everything, but we do

22 have probably all the data that we're going to get at
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1 this point to file, so we need just need one quick

2 discussion, and then we can pass it along for

3 analysis.

4 MR. DeLASKI: Nick, I'm going to put you

5 on the spot. I guess I'm disappointed, you know,

6 that two manufacturers have chosen not to submit

7 data. I don't know who they are.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: They are not in this room.

9 They have not been participating.

10 MS. DeLASKI: Can you give us a -- I

11 mean, you can't. I was going to ask you for how

12 significant are they in terms of market?

13 MR. MISLAK: We've reached out to them.

14 We can request them to give us the data.

15 MR. DeLASKI: They are AHRI members --

16 MR. MISLAK: They are AHRI members.

17 Unfortunately, we can't force them to provide the

18 information.

19 MR. DeLASKI: Can you comment on how

20 representative of the market you think the data that

21 you've collected is.

22 MR. MISLAK: We have seven of the nine,
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1 probably, of the major players.

2 MR. DeLASKI: Okay. That sounds correct

3 to me.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, and so I think what

5 we need to discuss --

6 MR. DeLASKI: I'll take back my

7 disappointed comment. Seven out of nine is not.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Duly noted.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: So what Nick and I had a

10 conversation about is we do have like total numbers.

11 They're not going to be total in each of these bins

12 by any means, but we do have total numbers.

13 And so you could kind of see, if you

14 added them up, you know, could we release those total

15 numbers? And so that's conversation he hasn't had

16 with everyone else. He and I have had it, but he

17 hasn't had it with everyone else.

18 MR. DeLASKI: What I heard Greg said as

19 you ran out of the room was time is short. The hope

20 is to have it by end of last week.

21 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. We, the next quick

22 break we have here, we just need to have a quick
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1 manufacturer talk, and then we could potentially give

2 it to you guys today or as soon as possible, okay?

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

4 Greg, on this service life issue, you're

5 using some extended lives based on the shipments

6 model, and boldly speaking, the question is why you

7 think your shipments model is a more accurate

8 indicator than things like the planning numbers that

9 manufacturers use in their models, the information we

10 are getting back from SMACCNA and other indices.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Katie will get into

12 this in talking about the shipments model, but

13 there's two primary sources of the data we use.

14 That's stock saturations that we get out of CBECS and

15 historical shipments that we have.

16 And all we're trying to do is apply a

17 lifetime function to that shipments data to match

18 that stock saturation, and so we're using that data

19 to derive a lifetime value.

20 So I guess that's the reason why we're

21 using it over the information we're getting out of

22 this group right now.
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1 We're hoping that the AHRI data, you

2 know, the new AHRI data, would provide more insight

3 into, what, what's the appropriate value?

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

5 With all due respect, I'm inferring that

6 there's a certain amount of softness in any service

7 life estimate that we can bring to the table.

8 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA.

9 Yeah. One of the things that I think

10 that is of a concern to me is, you know, obviously,

11 the lifetime of this equipment I think affects the

12 analysis a lot, so up or down. So I understand it's

13 a difficult task and so I would like it to be based

14 upon data that, data that necessarily is not provided

15 in a way that reflects positively on how you might

16 analyze equipment one way or the other.

17 So I mean, I would prefer some of the

18 information somehow be as objective as it can be.

19 MR. DeLASKI: But isn't that what you --

20 the stock is the stock, right? We have the stock and

21 you have a flow basically, and you guys, the two have

22 to work together, right? So your stock is the
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1 standard stock analysis at some level is your check,

2 right?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right. I guess

4 the one shortcoming is you'll see we only have three

5 years' worth of stock data, right?

6 And our latest data point with the

7 commercial units, at least from AHRI, I believe, is

8 1999 and then we derived shipments for the next

9 decade from census data.

10 So there, from that standpoint, there is

11 some squishiness, because if we had actual AHRI

12 shipments data for the last ten to 15 years, it would

13 inform that process of deriving a lifetime a lot

14 better.

15 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie at LBNL.

16 I will be going through the shipments

17 modeling, but also, I just want to make sure, you

18 know, if you end up changing the lifetime from 16 to

19 20 years, you're going to have hardly any impact

20 because you've already discounted at 16 years.

21 It does affect the energy savings, but

22 it doesn't affect economics.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So let me move

2 on.

3 The same request for data on equipment

4 lifetime also applies to the efficiency

5 distributions, so again, no change there from what

6 you saw last week.

7 Again, you saw this slide last week, as

8 well. It's this mapping of the equipment design idea

9 that we're getting from the engineering analysis into

10 the building data that we have and the energy use and

11 then the life cycle cost.

12 Again, for equipment designs at the

13 baseline for 7 and a half tons, which is a constant

14 air volume unit, that gets applied only to constant

15 air volume buildings.

16 For efficiency levels 1 and 2, where we

17 have a constant air volume design and a staged air

18 volume design, we apply the constant air volume

19 design to the constant air volume building and the

20 staged air volume design to the VAV building.

21 And then after, from 2.5 down, all the

22 way down to level 5, all we have are staged air
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1 volume designs which get applied to every type of

2 building.

3 You can see what that means in terms of

4 what efficiency levels and what buildings require a

5 conversion curb. Again, it's everything at EL-3 and

6 beyond.

7 No diffuser replacement and then you can

8 see what sort of thermostat is required based upon

9 the type of equipment design was analyzed and the

10 engineering.

11 Again, this is the same thing for 15

12 tons, again, no changes from last week with the

13 exception of the diffuser replacement.

14 Again, last week you saw, for constant

15 air volume buildings, that we had a diffuser

16 replacement for efficiency levels 4 and 5. Now those

17 have been removed. And again, I'll explain that a

18 little bit later.

19 And for 30 tons, here, again, we only

20 had the detail data available to just analyze up

21 through efficiency level 3.

22 So here we had a constant air volume
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1 design only for the baseline level, for the baseline

2 level and then constant air volume and variable air

3 volume designs from 1, 2 and 2.5.

4 And again, as I explained in the 7.5

5 table, those get applied respectively to CAV

6 buildings and VAV buildings.

7 For level 3, where we have a VAV

8 equipment design, that gets applied to both the CAV

9 and the VAV buildings.

10 Again, no conversion curbs and no --

11 actually, that's wrong. I'm sorry. Efficiency level

12 3, that should say yes, so that's wrong in your, both

13 up here and in your handout.

14 A conversion curb was applied at EL-3,

15 no diffuser replacement and finally, here are the

16 thermostats that have to be used with the equipment

17 that was designed in the engineering analysis.

18 This is the equipment prices. Again,

19 what you saw last week were just for 7 and a half and

20 15 tons. Now we're adding the 30-ton equipment

21 prices to this.

22 So again, as I reported last week, we're
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1 projecting prices out into the future as constant

2 real prices because we see no discernible trend in

3 the PPI data.

4 But again, this is solely for the

5 equipment price. It does not include the

6 installation cost. Again --

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

8 I just want to say that from my

9 experience, that use of the PPI data is the

10 appropriate way to do this.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is the

12 installation cost, again, adding 30 tons to what you

13 saw last week, when I presented only 7 and a half and

14 15 tons.

15 We're still increasing the installation

16 cost proportionately with equipment weight. We did

17 look into the crane cost, looking at the RS Means

18 cost data book a little bit more closely.

19 We saw that the crane cost does not vary

20 for cranes up to equipment that's being lifted up to

21 6,000 pounds, and so because none of this equipment,

22 even at the highest efficiency level, doesn't exceed
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1 that, we assumed that crane costs don't change with

2 efficiency.

3 But again, we're sticking with this

4 assumption right now that, you know, increasing

5 installation costs as a function of weight is a good

6 proxy for what has to happen to accommodate other

7 things with the unit because it's more efficient, due

8 to it being more efficient.

9 And I know that we talked about that a

10 lot last week, and I don't know if you want to stop

11 here and talk about that further.

12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni at SMACCNA.

13 I guess just a couple of questions and

14 comments. So your installation costs there, you're

15 saying that to put a 7 and a half ton unit starts off

16 at around $3,000 to install, and that includes labor

17 and materials?

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, but it does not

19 include the equipment price, the actual unit. This

20 is just the labor and materials to install the

21 equipment. So then you add on the equipment price

22 here to get a total installed price.
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1 So there's 5,900 there for the single,

2 single-stage baseline unit for 7 and a half tons, and

3 you would add 2,500 to it. So you get 7,400 bucks

4 total installed price.

5 MR. TERZIGNI: I have some numbers. I

6 can tell you contractors are not very crazy about

7 sharing numbers for costs of anything, but I got

8 several respondents, and I actually found a pretty

9 good consistency relating tonnage to costs to

10 install.

11 It's more than what you have there. It

12 worked out on average to be right around 2,400 bucks

13 per ton to install.

14 Now, I can go back to that group and ask

15 if there is something in there that we -- and one of

16 them specifically says that excludes duct work.

17 That's just the cost to install those units.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Including the cost of the

19 equipment?

20 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, even if we include

21 the cost of equipment, I didn't -- the question

22 wasn't phrased that way, so I don't want to speak on
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1 their behalf, but even if we include that, it's still

2 higher than the number here, including the cost of

3 equipment.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So $2,400 per ton, you

5 said?

6 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah, and --

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So for a ten-ton unit,

8 that's $24,000, right?

9 MR. TERZIGNI: And these are guys that

10 are in the Midwest so we're not even talking coast

11 prices.

12 I'm happy to reach back out to them.

13 This was more than one respondent. Some people gave

14 me actual numbers when I gave them tonnage, and

15 another person responded with an average and when I

16 averaged them all out, they actually were all pretty

17 close.

18 I would say we could argue and maybe go

19 down to maybe $2,000 a ton, you know, with the

20 variance, but mean, I know we're off quite a bit

21 there.

22 And I'm happy to ask more questions or
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1 more specific questions, but it's the -- it's not, at

2 this point, we're not at a 10 percent difference

3 here. We've got a significant difference.

4 If interested, I'm happy to dig a little

5 deeper.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's good, Mark, and

7 we appreciate that.

8 I just want to point out, the only thing

9 that really matters, though, is the Delta. So if we

10 just add $10,000 to everything, all it's going to do

11 is inflate every number and the Delta between TSL-4

12 and TSL-3 is going to remain the same. It's just --

13 MR. TERZIGNI: So in that respect, the

14 costs were not a function of weight, because I asked

15 another question, and mainly because of, like you

16 noted, the biggest cost was if, if the weight

17 resulted in having to upgrade the roof, that's when a

18 significant trigger came in.

19 Also, when it came to the crane, crane

20 costs were crane costs. What tended to affect that

21 is the ability of the crane, its proximity to the

22 building.
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1 That tended, because I guess if you're

2 further away from the building you need a much bigger

3 crane because the boom is much longer -- and weather

4 was also thrown in there, which is I know, that's a

5 little tougher --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, that's the Midwest?

7 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, no. No. This was

8 all over the country. But weight was not as much of

9 an issue across the range. Like I specifically said,

10 Is weight a factor? And then enlisted the others,

11 and pretty much weight was not a big concern mainly

12 because it was not. It just wasn't.

13 MR. STARR: This is Louis from NEEA.

14 Just to point that out, that means you

15 really shouldn't scale your higher EL levels based

16 upon just as the weight as the factor.

17 MR. WHITWELL: But --

18 MR. STARR: Go ahead.

19 MR. WHITWELL: The weight is just being

20 used as a proxy. We heard that the cost does

21 increase, the SMACCNA data was that the cost does

22 increase with capacity, so, you know.
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1 MR. STARR: Well, the capacity is the

2 same, right, for a given 7 and a half ton unit,

3 right?

4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm sorry. With

5 efficiency, I think you said, right?

6 MR. TERZIGNI: No.

7 MR. STARR: I didn't hear that.

8 MR. TERZIGNI: No. The answer wasn't

9 per efficiency, it was really wasn't. And I did ask

10 specifically about weight.

11 If the group feels they want to rephrase

12 the question, I'm happy to re-ask the question for

13 any specifics.

14 MR. STARR: In reality, when you've go

15 to set a unit, you're going to use two people to set

16 the unit, one guy to talk to the crane or to signal

17 the crane operator, and whether it's 7,500 pounds or

18 7,900 pounds, it's not going to make any much

19 difference than that. And the rest of the materials

20 are not going to make too much difference, either.

21 So to me it would make sense it wouldn't

22 scale really to.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: But I think the other way

2 to look another it -- so SMACCNA data said that it

3 increases with capacity, which is also size, given

4 its size, right?

5 MR. TERZIGNI: It does -- so let me give

6 you what I consider to be a good representative set

7 of answers.

8 So the question was, are there any

9 specific triggers that affect -- earlier it was,

10 what's the cost to install or change out a unit.

11 Include the crane, et cetera.

12 Are there any specific triggers that

13 affect cost? Is weight typically, is the weight of

14 the unit typically a significant factor?

15 So that was the question.

16 The answer, For new construction, a new

17 roof top unit, above standard cost adds would include

18 things like accessories, such as economizer, power

19 (inaudible) smoke detectors. So those things can add

20 to the cost of installation.

21 The lift; distance from crane to

22 building; distance up; lift distance in, that would
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1 definitely be a factor.

2 And then obstructions, of course,

3 anything, again, affecting the crane.

4 Replacements, for a replacement unit,

5 the answers are, If the new unit capacity is larger

6 than the replaced unit, this can present electrical

7 gas piping, support steel deficiencies, and

8 therefore, added costs. Accessories the added unit

9 had that the old unit didn't are going to add costs.

10 Again, the lift goes back in there.

11 A new roof curve, we talked about that

12 earlier, or an adapter. That's an added cost.

13 If the new unit supply discharge

14 openings do not line up with the replaced unit, then

15 there would be costs in modifying the duct work.

16 New unit gas or electrical connections

17 if they're on different sides, I believe we talked

18 about that earlier, rotating units. There is a cost

19 there.

20 And then standard time versus premium,

21 which I know is not -- if we're doing nights and

22 weekends versus 9:00 to 5:00, 8:00 to 3:00 or
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1 whatever.

2 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

3 You know, you could forget about all

4 that and just look at your chart there for a second.

5 So let's say you had a 7 and a half ton there and you

6 had an EL-5. So that's $4,400.

7 Let's say we instead put on a 15-ton

8 unit. It's going to cost me a thousand more dollars

9 to put on a 15-ton unit that I can bet weighs more

10 than a 7 and a half unit, right?

11 If I do an EL-1, 15 tons, it's $3,400.

12 So if I put a unit on that's twice the tonnage, which

13 I think we just said varies on capacity, but you look

14 at seven and a half ton, and it's $2,900 for your 7

15 and a half and for your 7 and a half in an EL-5, it's

16 $4,400.

17 So you're telling -- I mean, I don't

18 know. I don't really care all that much about it,

19 but I would definitely say that, if you told me which

20 is more expensive to put on a unit, a 15-ton or a 7

21 and a half ton, I think I could feel with pretty good

22 confidence to tell you that a 7 and a half ton is
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1 cheaper than a 15-ton and that chart wouldn't

2 indicate that.

3 I would say what you should do, if

4 nothing else, is that the most expensive or the

5 highest EL 7 and a half ton should still be cheaper

6 than the lowest level 15-ton. And if you adjust the

7 scaling for that throughout the chart, I think I

8 would be okay with it.

9 And you could do that any number of

10 ways, based on maybe what Mark was saying or some

11 version of that.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

13 And just in the interests of --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's not going to be

15 true for -- I'm sorry, Harvey, for interrupting.

16 But his logic would not be true that a

17 30-ton at -- a 15-ton 4514, so then you would scale

18 that down for a 30-ton starting at level 1 at 4,514.

19 Sorry. Wrong. 30-ton, big. No.

20 You're in another whole world. Don't agree.

21 MR. STARR: Well, I'm just saying the

22 smaller ton unit, right, a 7 and a half, well, would
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1 you agree that a 7 and half and a -- it's cheaper to

2 install any kind of 7 and a half ton than it is a

3 15-ton?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: What's the weight

5 difference on these two, the 7 and a half and 15? Do

6 you have that, by any chance, on your laptop?

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: I have to look at

8 James's.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So while he's looking at

10 that, just a comment. I went back and I looked at

11 the prior slides that Detlef showed, and our 7 and a

12 half ton, which is around a 3, is the same size as

13 the 15, our EL -- I mean our baseline 15-ton unit,

14 same size, physical size. So weight is probably

15 different, but it's the same size unit, right?

16 So I'm assuming that --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It shouldn't be too big

18 a difference, then.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So i'm assuming

20 that the increase in installation costs that we heard

21 about that goes up with capacity is more, if it's not

22 weight, then it's got something to do with the size
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1 of the unit and the --

2 MR. TERZIGNI: Handling process, also.

3 MR. WHITWELL: And the handling of it.

4 MR. SACHS: That's what I wanted to ask

5 about. When you said labor to install is estimated

6 to remain constant regardless of thermostat type, it

7 just sort of evoked memories of all the steps

8 required in start-up or commissioning, both. And

9 were those accommodated?

10 Because certainly, a lot more time is

11 involved in confirming operation with a 30-ton VAV

12 than a 7 and a half ton CAV.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not explicitly, no.

14 MR. SACHS: I'm just trying to be fair

15 and help out my friends among the OEMs, all one of

16 them.

17 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

18 The last thing I'd say, we can even make

19 it more start difference. I mean, even look at your

20 EL-5 at 7 and a half tons. It's $4,400, and then you

21 said, Well, for an extra -- what's the difference

22 between 44 -- $1,400, we can put a 30-ton unit on
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1 there.

2 I mean, I'm kind of surprised -- well,

3 maybe Bob can answer this one -- that you're saying

4 that some of your really high efficiency equipment is

5 actually the same tonnage --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Same physical size, yes.

7 Yes.

8 MR. STARR: -- double the tonnage.

9 What's in that equipment that's making

10 it so heavy?

11 MR. WHITWELL: More coils.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Compressors, motors.

13 MR. WHITWELL: More compressors, right,

14 lower internal static.

15 MR. STARR: Should it be scaling with --

16 you're not saying it shouldn't be scaling with --

17 MR. WHITWELL: No. My point, my point

18 was that as you go up in efficiency on a smaller

19 unit --

20 MR. STARR: It's heavier.

21 MR. WHITWELL: -- well, and it's bigger.

22 So, you know, it's approaching -- so I'm not
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1 surprised to see at EL level 5, a 7 and a half ton

2 unit costs more to install than an EL-1 15-ton. It

3 doesn't surprise me because it's going to be maybe

4 bigger, right?

5 I mean, if our EL-3 unit is the same

6 size as this baseline 15-ton, when you get to EL-5,

7 it may even be bigger.

8 MR. STARR: Yeah. I mean, they're

9 pulling, I think they're pulling the numbers from RS

10 Means, so they probably don't get so -- they're not

11 --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no. I mean, it's

13 based on weight, right? It's a proxy for whatever.

14 MR. TERZIGNI: Just going back to the

15 table that James had put together, the 7 and a half

16 units shipping weight starts at 750 and goes up to

17 1,320.

18 For the 15 tons, it starts at 1,703, so

19 there's no overlap. It goes up to 2,264. And then

20 going up to the 30-ton, the baseline is 4630, so

21 there is no overlap there, either.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So it's the same.
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1 It might be the same size or slightly bigger, but the

2 weight might be less.

3 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah. These weights are

4 like --

5 MR. WHITWELL: And these are based on

6 current product, right?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

8 MR. TERZIGNI: And what James is doing

9 is industry average for close to that tonnage.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Industry average. Okay.

11 MR. STARR: So I wondered -- so is

12 it -- it's not -- hmm. Is this scaling by weight

13 still or maybe not? I was trying to get at, I was

14 trying to figure out what the upshot of what you were

15 saying was. Does that mean that the prices shouldn't

16 overlap in terms of the installed cost or not? Or

17 help me out there.

18 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, that's sort of what

19 I was wondering out loud myself.

20 MR. STARR: I don't know. I mean, I'd

21 be okay with scaling on weight somehow, I mean, if

22 that -- does that seem reasonable to you guys?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Lacking anything better,

2 right?

3 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni.

4 I'm okay with it, too, only because when

5 you read the response, I assumed all of those little

6 additions, added compressors and what-not, are going

7 to add to the weight. So even though a contractor

8 may not think of it in terms of weight, the response

9 said, as we add more gadgets onto the price, that

10 does increase the cost.

11 I think your efficiency levels would be

12 more gadgets as we go higher. You guys put it in

13 terms of weight. They don't think of it in terms of

14 weight, but it does make sense that there's a

15 correlation there.

16 MR. STARR: The other thing is -- I

17 mean, hate to say this. Maybe it doesn't matter --

18 but if it's convenient to change it and it's easy, I

19 would like it. But if it's going cause a lot of

20 headaches and it's not going to change the relative

21 positions of the EL levels, I don't know.

22 Actually, I'll let John Cymbalsky talk
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1 to that.

2 Did you catch all the stuff earlier we

3 were talking about?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Yes. No, I'm

5 triple tasking.

6 No. I mean, I don't think it would

7 matter if we changed it.

8 MR. STARR: It would be nice to change

9 it for the record. I was actually also talking about

10 these things. It's the external static and all other

11 issues, the curb adapters and stuff. It's not so

12 much I need LBNL to go back and change all this.

13 It's just it'd be nice, when we go through the next

14 rulemaking, to have it on the record that we decided

15 that curb adapters were somewhere between .05 and

16 .26.

17 On the external, it sounds like Mark

18 confirmed your guys' assumption, or Mark (inaudible)

19 with SMACCNA, confirmed that your static pressure

20 seemed reasonable.

21 So it's just things like that. It's not

22 so much that I want to have you guys working all
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1 weekend changing numbers, just so that it shows up in

2 the record.

3 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, this one's an easy

4 one to change. This one is a very easy one to

5 change.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's just got to be

7 based on something other than, I think, you know.

8 MR. STARR: Well, Mark gave an opinion.

9 MR. TERZIGNI: Why don't we put out the

10 offer, Hey, Mark with SMACCNA, if the group wants

11 specific questions and not right now, but if you can

12 get me specific questions, I'll be happy to ask those

13 specific questions and exactly how you want them

14 worded and see if we see a trend in answers that

15 makes everybody happier or not.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Are people in favor, then,

17 of giving some questions to Mark --

18 MR. STARR: I don't think it's

19 necessary, because I think the manufacturers and us,

20 we're happy to scale it on weight, and I think the

21 manufacturers are okay.

22 So if there's not an overlap or weight,
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1 I mean, in other words, wherever the 7 and a half and

2 the 15-ton, if we just do that scaling on weight, in

3 other words, you wouldn't see EL-5 at 4,400 and then

4 you'd see a 15-ton EL-1. If it, indeed, is heavier

5 at the 15-ton, then you would expect to see the price

6 lower in EL-5.

7 So just making those adjustments I think

8 sounds like they said in lieu of something better and

9 spending lots of time, that seems like a good proxy,

10 and I'm okay with that.

11 MR. DEL TORO: I have a question on the

12 slide. I don't see a change in increase in

13 installation costs at EL-3 and greater for conversion

14 curbs.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's going to be on

16 another slide. We'll get to that.

17 MR. DEL TORO: Thank you.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. That doesn't

19 include that in this slide.

20 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni.

21 Just as a clarification, it says here

22 crane costs are not reflected in the costs below.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. That's correct.

2 MR. TERZIGNI: And my question

3 specifically also included specifically crane costs.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, okay.

5 MR. TERZIGNI: It's including crane

6 costs, so that may also be why there's a gap. I

7 didn't ask what those were, so I don't know what the

8 percentage of -- you know, that may make up the

9 difference. It may not, in the actual numbers.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I wish I could

11 remember what the crane costs were out of RS Means,

12 but they were substantial, right?

13 MR. TERZIGNI: Those costs. I think

14 it's a significant part of specialty -- you know,

15 crane costs make up a big part of getting it right,

16 making money or losing money on the bids. Get the

17 crane costs.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, and you know, we

19 saw the same thing, as well. And we talked to also a

20 subject area expert that we have that really, the big

21 crank on cranes is the height of the building, which

22 speaks to the fact what you saying, how close you can
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1 get the crane to the building. It's all about that

2 length, about the boom, right, reach to be able to

3 put it up there.

4 MR. DeBLASIS: So that suggests to me,

5 again, if we were to play this through, that Mark,

6 your rule of them was that, what you heard back from

7 your guys, the rule of thumb was $2,400 per ton?

8 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah. Based on the

9 numbers, one guy gave me a range like that. Other

10 people gave me specific numbers, but when I plugged

11 -- there's all -- good numbers, but it worked out

12 pretty close.

13 MR. DeLASKI: So their rule of thumb is

14 driven by, Tell me how many tons and I'll give you my

15 bids.

16 MR. TERZIGNI: Well, again, you have to

17 understand in the context when they're giving no

18 other information, they're going to give you a number

19 --

20 MR. DeLASKI: They weren't looking at

21 efficiency. They weren't looking at everything.

22 They were looking at how many tons, that that would
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1 be the driver.

2 MR. TERZIGNI: Right. Now, if we get a

3 specific example, said, Here's a unit. This unit

4 has, you know, three connections and here it is. He

5 gave a very detailed example --

6 MR. DeBLASIS: But it stands to reason

7 that that, the crane costs could very well explain.

8 If the crane costs were worked into this chart, you

9 could see that that's, I mean, you may very well see

10 that the numbers end up being --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the reason why we

12 didn't include it in that was because they didn't

13 vary in efficiency or tonnage.

14 MR. DeLASKI: Well, what Mark -- okay.

15 He didn't ask the question about efficiency, but if

16 he were, we don't know -- (inaudible).

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. It

18 sounds to me like the numbers that Mark was given is

19 the risk free estimate. I can't lose money at that

20 level.

21 It's not a bid. It's the ballpark

22 figure that fully protects me as the contractor.
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1 MR. STARR: Aside --

2 MR. TERZIGNI: Again, not asking the

3 contractors themselves, but I would say, aside from

4 anything completely irregular, but yes. As a

5 building ing owner, if you ask me what should I

6 budget to do this, that's probably their starting

7 number, which, right, is going to cover certain

8 contingencies, maybe not everything, but definitely

9 a -- I wouldn't say worst case scenario but certainly

10 not a least case scenario, either. Half, plus.

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

12 The other thing, and I don't think it

13 really matters, but when you use RS Means, there's, a

14 lot of times, the assumption is that you're going to

15 be doing a bunch of whatever it is and so, you know,

16 with the reach -- you usually get a crane, and you

17 ask what the reach is, and they know from the height

18 and things.

19 And so they can get out there, and so

20 they -- if it's just one unit, you're going to pay

21 one price, which might be closer to what his number

22 is, but if you're going do a whole bunch of them,
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1 then the price can come back down, because the price

2 of the cranes' already out there; you're not paying

3 for them to come out; he's there all day and you're

4 able to spread it out amongst a number of units so --

5 But ultimately, I mean, your RS Means,

6 you've sort of been using that across the board. I,

7 you know, I don't know how else you could really do

8 it unless you really found something wrong with the

9 RS Means.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Right, and

11 let's be honest: Getting after these costs is

12 difficult. It's very difficult. So RS Means is a

13 reputable source, right? I mean, there is always

14 problems with it, probably, but it's something that

15 we can point to, right?

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. So help

17 me understand. Are we accepting these figures and

18 moving on?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It sounds like some

20 adjustment.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Some adjustment?

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Okay.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, maybe we should

3 be very, very clear about what that adjustment is.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would say that.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. What adjustment are

6 we talking about, then?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: It almost seems like,

8 you know, in some sense extrapolating a based upon a

9 ton, cost per --

10 MR. STARR: I would say --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- cost per pound or

12 ton or ton of weight, not ton of capacity, ton of

13 weight and using that everywhere.

14 I mean, the reason why it's disjointed

15 like this is because these are the break points

16 within Means, right? They just for whatever reason

17 are providing these costs for what I would call

18 baseline, right? For 7 and a half, 15 and 30.

19 Obviously, there is an inconsistency

20 there, as Detlef just noted, by saying what the

21 weight was of the EL-5 versus the baseline 15-ton.

22 MR. STARR: This is Louis.
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1 I would say just keep your EL-1,

2 whatever your base number, EL-1 levels are for each

3 one of them and scale all the levels above that based

4 upon weight and that seems like it would take care of

5 it.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Can you repeat that?

7 MR. STARR: So 2951 for each -- for

8 EL-2, just scale that number based upon weight. For

9 EL-2.5, scale the original 29. So keep the number

10 you have in the first column for the 7 and a half,

11 15- and 30-ton and scale it and maybe the same way

12 with the CAV, I guess.

13 Just your first number that you figured

14 out for the base model, keep that and then scale up

15 on, scale up for the higher E levels based on weight.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: But that's what we did.

17 MR. STARR: Is it? I thought they said

18 that the 7 and a half ton is not 15. Okay. Well --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: What Detlef says is the

20 weight of the EL-5 7 and half ton is less than the

21 weight of the baseline 15-ton, and so I think the

22 issue then was like, Okay. Why does it cost less to
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1 install a heavier 15-ton unit than a more efficient 7

2 and a half ton unit?

3 That's what I thought the sort of

4 inconsistency we were talking about.

5 MR. WHITWELL: But some of that, I mean,

6 some of that is going to be commissioning costs,

7 right? Because you've got a more sophisticated

8 control in that EL-5 unit, probably has a variables

9 frequency drive in it that may need to be

10 reprogrammed, stuff like that.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. Certainly, the

12 complexity of the system is much great in the EL-5 7

13 and half ton than the EL-0 15-ton.

14 MR. STARR: Is it just the amount of the

15 start-up? I mean, they're going to send a start-up

16 guy out there, and he's going to spend two hours or

17 maybe, more complex, four hours? It's just the

18 amount of time that the technician is there, which a

19 technician is 120 bucks an hour. I mean, I guess

20 there could be a little bit of price difference.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Coming back to my

22 original thought, don't we only care about the
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1 numbers going across because we're not choosing,

2 again, 15 and 7?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only thing that we

5 all should be really focused on is, if you read to

6 cross left to right, that we capture the marginal

7 difference according to the efficiency.

8 Once you get to that ton, you know,

9 you're locked into that ton bracket. So don't -- who

10 cares about 15 versus 7, right? We care about EL-1 7

11 versus EL-5 7.

12 So if we think -- now, you can multiply

13 all that, all those numbers by 5, I don't really

14 care. Because the Delta is the same.

15 I'm just worried that we're going to,

16 again, we're going to crank, you know, make another

17 crank for no real gain or benefit here.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But you know, if you

20 think it's necessary and we have to do it, like Greg

21 said, it's not a big deal to do it. It's just, is it

22 going to change any answers? And I don't think so.
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1 MR. STARR: If it's not a big deal and

2 you can come up with some reasonable thing that seems

3 more right, then that's fine. That's all I'd ask.

4 If it's a big deal and takes a lot of work, then

5 yeah, don't change it.

6 MR. WHITWELL: But Louis, I think if

7 we're asking for him to do something different, we

8 got to tell him what we want him to do.

9 MR. STARR: I'm not sure now.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, he can change

11 5,000 to $6,000, sure, but why and based on what and

12 will it matter?

13 MR. DeLASKI: Yes, I would (audible) I

14 think one thing; I would suggest that we take these

15 numbers. I don't think we have a specific

16 recommendation at this point, and if -- we'll take it

17 under consideration. Maybe we'll pick up something

18 tomorrow. I think there's a need to kind of move on,

19 my advice -- it doesn't seem like it is likely to be

20 a huge issue -- and get back to our policy question.

21 MR. STARR: I would also just say if

22 LBNL, and I didn't do an analysis and I'm not a
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1 construction estimator, calculator thing, but if

2 you've got an idea of what you think would be the

3 correct fix would be for it, I mean, Detlef seemed to

4 have some solution, but I don't know what it was now.

5 MR. DeLASKI: I think the point that

6 John is making is that you keep saying the fix, but

7 what's the problem?

8 MR. STARR: To me, the problem is just

9 down the road that we have the analysis somewhat

10 right in the record.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Look, I'm all for having

12 the right numbers, too, believe me, but I think the

13 point you're making is between the tonnages, and it

14 doesn't matter in the policy decision. If it was

15 wrong going across, I want to fix them.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Here's a thought to move

17 ahead. We want to just do just a temperature check.

18 We have a couple of ideas. One is Andrew says let it

19 set, think about it until tomorrow. Another is,

20 let's see. Can we live with these numbers and move

21 on? What would with you like to do, either of those

22 or both? Do you want to let it sit and we'll deal
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1 with it tomorrow?

2 MR. DeLASKI: I, again, I propose that

3 we just let us consult on it. We can caucus and then

4 think about it over the evening.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll let it sit.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fine, and just a

7 recommendation on what the fix is.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like we've said, it's

10 not a huge -- (inaudible.)

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Because we've got

12 a lot to cover. Okay.

13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

14 We need a motion and then we can vote on

15 it.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Marshall, do you

17 have a motion?

18 MR. HUNT: No. We're going to caucus.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. No motion.

20 MR. SACHS: While were in transition --

21 MR. TERZIGNI: Harvey, transition.

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Which
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1 L'Enfant plaza building is tomorrow.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's 950.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Number 950.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: If you have a compass,

5 it's the south building of the three that are --

6 MR. WHITWELL: If we don't, it's the

7 farthest away.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's the furthest one

9 away from this building, that's correct.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: It's the one opposite the

11 Postal Service.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: The entrance faces

13 north. How about that?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: We need to see if the sun

15 rises.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. If you're facing

17 the hotel or what was the hotel, it's on your right.

18 So no matter which direction, it's on your right.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: I think this group can

20 find it.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll put a big New York

22 Rangers flag in front of the building tomorrow, how
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1 about that?

2 MR. WHITWELL: We'll just start about

3 9:30. We'll have to look and see who's floundering

4 around.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Remember, we start

6 tomorrow promptly at 8:00 a.m. For you, Harvey, it's

7 8:00. No. No. For everyone, it's 8:00 a.m.

8 Okay. So moving right along, Greg?

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. We're moving on

10 to conversion curb and term stats.

11 On thermostats, it's the same

12 information as you saw last time, but the big change

13 here is on conversion curbs. Here, based in large

14 part on the information that Detlef collected, we

15 analyzed with a conversion curb cost of, for 7 and

16 half tons of $1,000, for 15 tons, 1,750, and for 30

17 tons, 4,000, and we applied these at EL-3, at EL-3

18 and above, and it was applied to all replacement

19 shipments, that is, that fraction of the market that

20 was determined to be new construction did not get a

21 conversion curb.

22 Roughly speaking, that fraction of the
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1 market is around 20 percent. That's new

2 construction, at least based upon our shipments

3 modeling.

4 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with

5 SMACCNA.

6 I actually concur with those numbers.

7 They're pretty close, not on the button, but

8 definitely within an error margin. Very specific

9 questions, very specific numbers. They're close,

10 close enough. The gaps are good enough even if the

11 cost is slightly lower.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: That speaks to Detlef's

13 inquisitor down there.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, Lewis, what do you

15 think about this one? Is it okay?

16 MR. STARR: I think it's similar. Are

17 you okay with this.

18 MS. WALTNER: I still have a question.

19 I'm sorry. It's late in the day. Maybe I'm just

20 being nuts.

21 So the distribution of conversion curbs

22 we went over earlier, where is that coming in?
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: That is not applied to

2 this analysis at all yet. So --

3 MS. WALTNER: It's not applied to any of

4 the analysis at all, we just have the distributions

5 to reflect on at this point?

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. That

7 is correct.

8 MR. WHITWELL: But we do have to say

9 whether we agree or not agree with them, right?

10 MS. WALTNER: Or whether we want them

11 applied in some way?

12 MR. WHITWELL: We ultimately have to

13 make --

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's one of

15 the two outstanding issues from the morning session.

16 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. It's been a long

17 couple of days.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You're doing double

19 duty.

20 MS. WALTNER: Yeah.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. If no one has

22 any other questions, I'll just move forward.
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1 This is the diffuser replacement costs,

2 and, as suggested at last week's meeting, I went back

3 to Taylor and tried to get further information on

4 those diffuser replacement costs.

5 I talked to someone there named Jeff

6 Stein. I think he has been active in 90.1. In any

7 case, he pointed me to this source, something that

8 was funded by ASHRAE that specifically looked at

9 whether or not constant air volume systems could

10 accommodate a variable air volume piece of equipment.

11 And so we're talking about basically a

12 variable air volume equipment design applied to a

13 single zone system. And again, you can see all the

14 bullet points there on background on the testing.

15 I guess the important thing is here is

16 that in the results section, is that, at least in

17 this study, they found that these diffusers, these

18 constant air volume diffusers, were acceptable with a

19 variable air volume piece of equipment in a single

20 zone system down to 10 percent air flow.

21 So we were going on the assumption

22 before that if you got below 60 percent air flow, you
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1 would have to change that diffuser.

2 So since this seemed to be a somewhat

3 definitive study, we went along with it, and, as a

4 result, removed the diffuser replacement costs from

5 the analysis.

6 So I would like to hear feedback on this

7 change and whether or not people are agreeable to it

8 or whether they just need to get the source of the

9 material themselves and digest it and determine

10 whether or not this is the appropriate thing to do.

11 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E

12 and California IOUs.

13 Based on the quality of the resource and

14 also the reference, I move that we accept the fact

15 that diffuser costs can be eliminated from some of

16 the analysis on some of the equipment that's

17 appropriate.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Any --

19 MR. TERZIGNI: Let's start with, I think

20 we'd like to take the same approach that Andrew asked

21 for, that we think about it overnight.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. If that's

3 agreeable, we will table it --

4 MR. HUNT: Accepted.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: -- the American way, and

6 put it over, put it down for tomorrow.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe, can we take a look

8 at --

9 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's Bob Whitwell.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell.

11 So can we go back just to Page 60 for a

12 minute? Or maybe it's 61. I just want to make sure

13 I understand what we're talking about here.

14 So this is the -- so the 15-ton. So,

15 for example, on EL-5, the equipment design is VAV

16 going into a CAV building, so you said you used an

17 SAV design there.

18 So I guess the first question is, I know

19 I'm backing up a little bit, but I wanted to hear

20 this before I came back to this, so why wouldn't it

21 be a CAV design for the -- or a VAV design

22 specifically for the VAV building?
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1 I guess, are you saying you don't need a

2 diffuser because you have the SAV design in the CAV

3 building? Okay. So it's only going down to 60, your

4 SAV design only goes down to 60 percent air flow?

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: In this case, I believe

6 this specific design, the air flow went down to 67

7 percent, this specific one.

8 Now, when you're talking about 30-ton,

9 for example, that EL-3, I'm pretty sure that that air

10 volume gets down to 20 percent, on that order.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So that one, that's one

12 we need to talk about, right? That the VAV design,

13 equipment design, in the CAV building where you put

14 the VAV, that's one we have to talk about.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. So again, the

16 assumption I made was that that CAV building sort of

17 by definition is a single zone system that that's

18 being applied to, I mean, that the equipment is being

19 applied to.

20 And so you're taking this variable air

21 volume piece of equipment, putting it into a single

22 zone system and reducing the air flow, right?
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1 And again, based upon that study, again,

2 they found that those diffusers are good down to 10

3 percent of air flow, that is, they got good air

4 distribution and good temperature distribution.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So my question, I guess,

6 or what I'm thinking is, so that's one that we need

7 to think about, is that NA under the CAV building for

8 EL-3.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

10 MR. WHITWELL: If I look at the rest of

11 this -- no. Go -- sorry. Go back to the 30 -- so

12 the 30-ton, everywhere else that you have a VAV, it's

13 in a VAV building.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So it should already have

16 the right diffusers in it.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

18 MR. WHITWELL: The CAV buildings are all

19 using CAVs.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So that, on the 30-ton,

22 that's the only question is right there on that one,
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1 on EL-3.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, and I would say

3 also at EL-4 on 15 tons, there the air flow got down

4 below 60 percent, and so that one, before I had a

5 replacement diffuser last week because of that.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So EL-4 in the CAV

7 building you got down to how far?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Below 60 percent. I

9 believe 40 percent of 100 percent air flow.

10 So -- and on EL-5, I put a diffuser

11 replacement cost in there because it's the

12 compressor that's actually on variable speed, not --

13 but the air flow is only staged down to 67 percent.

14 So maybe I was being a bit too

15 aggressive with that assumption of having to need a

16 diffuser replacement.

17 MR. WHITWELL: I don't see the diffuser

18 replacement shown there, though.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. Because I changed

20 that from last week.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Last week I had
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1 diffuser replacement on CAV building at EL-4 and 5.

2 MR. WHITWELL: And the SAV design that's

3 an EL-5 for the CAV building, how far is that air

4 flow going?

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: 67 percent.

6 MR. WHITWELL: That's 67 percent great.

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis. I have a

8 question about this. On your study, do you know if

9 they maintain the same supply temperature regardless

10 of the air volume?

11 If you think about it, as you stage

12 down, so you're going 100 percent. Design day,

13 you're probably producing 55 degree air, right? So

14 you go down to 2 lutsers (sic) you kick down your

15 second stage of only two stages of compression or

16 compressors working.

17 Then we go down and we got down to your

18 lowest level, you probably wouldn't still be

19 producing 55 air. I'm wondering if they assumed

20 that, and that's what helped keep their diffusion

21 performance index, because the air is actually

22 getting closer to the room temperature. They're
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1 dumping out, so you have a tendency. The air comes

2 out of the diffuser and drops because it's super

3 cold.

4 It's actually little bit warmer, and

5 this wasn't always possible until they started making

6 multistage equipment.

7 So I think some of the results of the

8 study is because of the way of the equipment

9 performed.

10 The other thing that's interesting about

11 this, if the study is right, and substantially, you

12 could actually have utility programs going back in

13 and taking constant air volume systems and putting

14 VAV systems in, because normally you would have to

15 change out VAV boxes and these other things. There's

16 some pretty good opportunity there, based on the

17 study.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: The only take away

19 from, I took from that study in my Jeff Stein from

20 Taylor is, you know, I think people associate with

21 VAV equipment multizone systems, right? But VAV is

22 variable air volume and doesn't necessarily imply a
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1 multizone system. It can still put it into a single2 zone system.

3 So and single-zone system is what's used

4 currently with constant air volume buildings, from

5 what I understand.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So the VAV buildings were

7 all single-zone VAV?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, the, I would say

9 the assumption is that all the constant air volume

10 buildings are single zone, right? And all the VAV

11 buildings are multi zone.

12 MR. WHITWELL: That sounds like a fair

13 assumption. Yep. Gotcha.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: And again, the key here

15 is that when you're replacing a piece of equipment in

16 a constant air volume building, you can still do it

17 with a variable air volume piece of equipment, again,

18 assuming this study is correct.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Greg, this is Detlef.

20 On that chart where you showed the EL-5

21 15-ton, that equipment design there suggests it's

22 VAV, but they're all SAV, really, and that's what we
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1 said before, so that VAV there is kind of misleading,

2 right?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I mean, why I

4 designated it as VAV is because the compressor was a

5 variable speed compressor, not the air volume.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's an SAV with

7 variable speed compressor.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right. Yeah.

9 Okay. I'm going to move on to the

10 non-compressor repairs. Again, the same thing you

11 saw last time for 7 and a half and 15, adding 30 tons

12 now, and just note in here that these repairs were

13 applied in the 7th year of the equipment's life as

14 opposed to ten years that we had in the numbers that

15 you saw last week.

16 On the compressor repairs, again, same

17 costs for 7 and a half and 15 but adding the 30-ton.

18 Again, the big change here is going from

19 10 to 13th year of a equipment's life for that

20 compressor repair to occur.

21 Also, I want to just emphasize again,

22 like I said last week that it's assumed that only 20
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1 percent of units will have to have a compressor

2 repair.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: For my own edification

4 -- this is John from DoE -- it looks like the

5 percentage of the, of the newly-installed one, that's

6 a pretty high percentage if you just replace the

7 compressor. Is that 80 percent or 80?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh. No. 20 percent

9 are going to be repairing their compressors.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no. But the cost of

11 repair of the compressor, it looks like it's 80

12 percent of buying a new one?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's important when you

16 get to that repair-replace decision.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, it is.

19 This is equipment lifetime, same

20 information you saw last time, no changes.

21 Again, I've heard, definitely heard the

22 input from the Working Group. I'm just hoping to get
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1 that AHRI shipments data to be able to recalibrate

2 the shipments model and see what that provides for a

3 new value.

4 Discount rates.

5 MR. SACHS: Whoa. I -- this is whoa.

6 On the equipment lifetime --

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Harvey. Harvey Sachs.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

9 For future work, I suggest we get close

10 to BOMA or IFMA. BOMA, in particular, does extensive

11 work for its members on service life and repairs and

12 the ASHRAE database with 215 mixed size units, it's

13 just not a sample.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree. This is Jill

15 Hootman from Trane. I agree, that I think that AHRI

16 should also do something, too, but we can't get it in

17 this timeframe. It's going to take a lot longer.

18 MR. SACHS: Right. Thank you, Jill.

19 This is Harvey, and I really think this is an area in

20 which the low cost will greatly improve our

21 understanding.

22 MR. DeLASKI: I have a -- this is
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1 Andrew -- a question on the compressor repair cost

2 slide. Is that, is it replacing, is it a compressor

3 replacement? It's not repairing. They're actually

4 putting in a new compressor.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. It's a

6 compressor replacement.

7 MR. DeLASKI: In year 13.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: In year 13. Yeah.

9 That, those are nominal dollars, right, in year 13.

10 MR. DeLASKI: Got it.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So again, you know,

12 you're getting a present value number and discounting

13 it back.

14 MR. DeLASKI: The product life of that

15 box is assumed to be the same as all the other

16 product lives.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: The next slide it has, 21,

18 22.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I might be jumping

20 ahead, but the repair-replace decision is essentially

21 this compressor repair versus buying a new one.

22 Because all the other stuff is, pales in comparison
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1 in the cost. It's a no brainer, in a sense.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Our last model,

3 shipments model, for the proposed rule was just that.

4 We assumed that the compressor failure was the driver

5 for making that decision.

6 Now, we have adjusted that shipments

7 model based upon comments we received from the

8 proposed rule and you'll hear about that either

9 later, being ten minutes or tomorrow.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Am I going to like the

11 answer? Should we wait until tomorrow?

12 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni with

13 SMACCNA. Quick question. When they replace the

14 compressor, does that reset the life clock; is that

15 what I'm hearing or --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. No. No. Before

17 we -- for the proposed rule, we assumed that that

18 compressor replacement extends life another full

19 lifetime, and so now we have it going for ten more

20 years, ten more years.

21 MR. TERZIGNI: That's a little bit

22 higher than -- again, I asked the same kind of
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1 question. I got answers on the low end of about five

2 years, and on the higher end they said 50 percent of

3 the original lifespan of the equipment so -- and that

4 was based on a 15- to 20-year lifespan.

5 So if we take the 20-year, half of that

6 means another ten years, so the average would be

7 7-ish, 7 and a half years, just as a --

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Did they happen to give

9 a demand elasticity review?

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Touche, Greg, touche.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry. It's like

13 the Holy Grail, right?

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm

15 trying to think as though I were a customer, and it

16 seems to me like my repair versus replace decisions

17 might be quite different for a 7 and a half ton unit

18 with one compressor, one- or two-stage, versus one of

19 these 30-ton or 50-ton units with more compressors

20 than I can count on one hand.

21 It seems to me that the analysis at

22 least needs to break, and it may not be possible this
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1 time, more than two compressors versus one or two in

2 terms of how the customer's going to do his

3 decisions.

4 I've got a big machine and the first

5 compressor is blown. I'm going to wonder about the

6 expected additional life of the second compressor.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi.

8 You have to remember that you have the

9 crane costs involved, too. That makes a huge

10 difference in repair or replace.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill from Trane.

12 I really can't put this whole data into

13 the public document, but we have extensive market

14 research data that we've done specifically with

15 national accounts.

16 I think those and other manufacturers in

17 the room can argue with me, but you might say it's

18 around 15 to 20 percent of the overall unitary market

19 as national accounts, and national accounts and their

20 buying pattern is pretty documented in this research

21 that says that they buy every ten to, eight to ten

22 years. They rip up a roof, they retrofit and
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1 redesign the building and the unit is scrapped, new

2 unit goes in.

3 So there's no more of this 20-year life

4 happening on at least 20 percent of these. They're

5 doing that for a lot of different reasons, because

6 they wanted to make the whole building look better,

7 you know, all different things that they want to do

8 to make that, to make a national account customer to

9 drive comfort levels, to maintain appearance,

10 incentivize. They incentivize their employees to

11 maintain an appearances and making corporate levels

12 to drive the business and all that kind of stuff.

13 So that's their motive. The tip the

14 roof up, usually, in those retrofits and so the whole

15 unit gets replaced. It's a longer buying process.

16 It's about a four-week buying process instead of a

17 plan -- you know, emergency replacement. It's an

18 eight- to 10-year cycle. It's pretty documented.

19 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

20 When I was at the Western Cooling

21 Efficiency Center, I received in conversations with

22 several big box stores, and they do roof sweep and
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1 they were saying 15. So I don't -- I'm not, I don't

2 know about your data. I'm just saying these people

3 are reputable for me. So no matter what, 15 is less

4 than 20, which is -- your argument is these are too

5 high. How much?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: At least 20 percent.

7 MR. DeLASKI: For a portion of the

8 market.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, and you have to

10 realize in these national accounts, it's not just big

11 box retailers. It's a heck of a lot of young brands,

12 Wendy's, a heck of a lot of Walgreen's being a big,

13 big user there, you know, Walgreen's and CVS, any of

14 those kinds of things.

15 So you know, they can outweigh some of

16 these big box retailers when you start to add up

17 those numbers. Those are the roof replacements that

18 are happening every eight to 10 years.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Think the jury is still

20 out on these numbers, right, until we get the e-tran

21 (sic) data?

22 I mean, we've debated this a lot, and I
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1 think it's, I think maybe we table this until we get

2 the data, which sounds imminent, right? And then see

3 what we get and then we can reopen that. Sound fair?

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Discount rates.

5 There's a comment from last week saying that there

6 was a wide disparity, and again, I looked back at

7 recent, you know, recent technical support documents

8 supporting recent rules, including commercial warm

9 air furnaces; general service; fluorescent lamps;

10 packaged terminal air conditioners; pumps; clothes

11 washers.

12 And again, you can see the numbers

13 there. The real discount rates vary from 3.6 to a

14 little over 6 percent.

15 So the 4.66 that we have on a weighted

16 average basis for CUAC definitely falls in that

17 range. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure what

18 you're actually looking at there, but when I went

19 back into the TSCs, this is what I found.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Rusty, do you have some of

21 the residential ones in there?

22 MR. THARP: I have to open it up and
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1 look at it now. According to what I was given

2 internally for commercial furnaces, ADFR 6,184, the

3 real discount rate was 8.9 percent.

4 For the commercial AC and heat pump NOPR

5 79F4 58,950, 6.2 percent; for the furnace fan rule,

6 79FR 38,131, 7.8 percent. For PTAC, 79FR 55,540 was

7 8 and a half percent. The real discount rate for the

8 driftline (sic) rule of briefing standards was 8.0

9 percent, 76FR 37,412; residential furnace NOPR, ADFR

10 13,122, 6.4 percent.

11 MR. DeBLASIS: It seems to me that you

12 should give those references to Greg since he did

13 give a different number from CBECS than you have, so

14 why is that?

15 And we should be looking at commercial

16 products, so we should look at the commercial

17 products and you start to cross-reference those

18 numbers.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. If I can just

20 get those direct references, I can check those and

21 hopefully, we can just chase this down and figure out

22 what's going on here.
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1 Okay. So I'm going to move on. And

2 here are the efficiency distributions in the case of

3 base case, the case about standards.

4 Again, the numbers for the first two

5 equipment classes are the same as what you saw last

6 week. I'm adding to this the very large. So again,

7 this is the, these distributions are the exact same

8 distributions we used in the proposed rule, again,

9 hoping to get data from AHRI to be able to update

10 this.

11 I also want to note that the

12 distributions for constant air volume buildings and

13 VAV buildings are different. Since the design,

14 equipment design, for the baseline, EL-0, is a

15 constant air volume design, that was not applied to

16 variable air volume buildings, so that's why you see

17 that distribution for constant air volume buildings

18 shifted down one for variable air volume buildings.

19 And again, I mean, I think we're all

20 just waiting to see what data we get from AHRI to

21 inform us on how these distributions should change.

22 But again, the numbers you'll see in the next slides
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1 are based upon these distributions.

2 So here are the results for 7 and a half

3 tons. These are slightly different because of the

4 fact that the energy use was modified but not, I

5 would say, significantly different than what you saw

6 last week.

7 But yeah. I really don't know what much

8 else to say. I mean, the bouncing around of the

9 payback just has to do with the fact that, as you saw

10 for ELs 2.5, 3 and 3.5, for example, that the actual

11 energy use in 3 is greater than 2.5 and 2.5 is

12 greater than 2. So that's why those paybacks bounce

13 around like that.

14 MR. DeLASKI: Greg, this is Andrew. I

15 compared the numbers to the numbers that you shared

16 with us last week, which aren't shown here, but my --

17 they're pretty comparable. The numbers are pretty

18 comparable to the numbers that were shared last week,

19 pretty similar, at least on the payback column that

20 and presume you would compare the other values to.

21 One thing I would note is that there is

22 a bump-up, if you go from EL-2.5 to EL-3, and that's
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1 that that curb coming in.

2 Right? So if you look at the total

3 installed costs for EL-2.5 in a 7 and a half ton unit

4 and the total installed costs is 10,895 and we're

5 seeing that 80 percent of units have a $1,000 cost,

6 well, you can see what that cost is.

7 I mean, the same thing. So we go from a

8 4 and a half simple payback to a 6.9 simple payback.

9 That's a inflection point there. Well, we know what

10 the inflection point is. It's the curb.

11 And so I just want to point that out to

12 folks, and the same thing happens in the 15-ton unit.

13 That 1,750 is the cost of the conversion curb, and

14 you can see it for each of the units driving that

15 total (sic) cost up.

16 And this is a inflection point.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Just flip to the

18 15-ton slide --

19 MR. DeBLASIS: You know, that, that

20 issue of whether to do that more complex analysis,

21 I'm just pointing it out that it does, indeed matter.

22 And that's the level the Department proposed in the
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1 proposed NOPR, is the L-3.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: I want to note here,

3 too, again, I mean, looking at EL-4 and -5, we used

4 to have those diffuser replacement costs. Those are

5 now gone and as a result, those levels now look much

6 more attractive economically than they did last week.

7 MR. DeLASKI: Right. So EL-4 -- this is

8 Andrew again -- looking again -- I'm just picking a

9 simple payback because it's a simple number for me to

10 jot down in the column, dropped dramatically in EL-4

11 and EL-5.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The diffuser

13 replacement costs were significant, very significant.

14 And here are the 30-tons. Again, we

15 were only able to analyze up through efficiency level

16 3. We just didn't get the detailed engineering data

17 in time to be able to analyze it for this meeting for

18 4 and 5. We can certainly do that next time we meet.

19 So here I would just say that things

20 aren't as economically attractive as they are for the

21 7 and a half and the 15.

22 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall of PG&E.
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1 This raised the question for me as, can

2 we specify different efficiencies at different

3 levels? I believe we can, just like ASHRAE does.

4 I just want to make sure our single

5 metric doesn't stop that.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. No. I mean,

8 that's what we did in the proposed rule.

9 MR. HUNT: Good. More important than

10 ever.

11 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell.

12 Maybe, Marshall, were you speaking of different

13 efficiencies or different EL, selecting different EL

14 levels? I think we can do that, as well.

15 MR. HUNT: Different EL levels.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I was speaking to the

17 actual efficiency, not the EL.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Because today we

19 have different efficiencies.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. These are a lot

21 of numbers, obviously. I think probably it's best

22 that maybe you just all digest them, maybe look at
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1 them overnight, come with questions tomorrow.

2 There's just a lot here.

3 So anyway, you can see how the, all the

4 additional changes for every single equipment class

5 has made an impact on at least the percent of

6 consumers with net costs. For the proposed rule,

7 there are very few consumers with net costs in the

8 case of 7 and a half tons with the exception of EL-2,

9 and now, as you get out there in higher efficiencies,

10 there are a more significant number of consumers with

11 net costs.

12 The same with 15 tons. Same with 30.

13 MR. DeLASKI: Greg, this is Andrew. Can

14 you help me make sure I understand these numbers

15 correctly? In the column percent of consumers with

16 net costs, that's just the percent at every EL.

17 They're not additive, right?

18 So for example, just being explicit

19 here, so at EL-1, 30-ton unit, so 1 percent of units

20 consumers have a net cost of EL-1, and at EL-2, it's

21 18 percent. It's not 19 percent?

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's correct. Right.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill with Trane.

2 Maybe I'm not understanding your

3 question right. Are you saying that 1, from going

4 level 1 to 2, then there is only a change of 18

5 percent?

6 MR. DeLASKI: I'm saying you should

7 leave that table as just as, I think that's

8 (inaudible) straightforward reading of it, which is

9 that 1, at EL-1, 1 percent of consumers have a net

10 cost and at EL-2, 18 percent have a net cost.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: If you compare the two of

12 them, it's not a difference. It's not, it's not --

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's 17 percent more.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. Okay.

15 MR. WHITWELL: 17 points more.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Percentage points.

17 Thank you.

18 You know what, everyone -- I -- you got

19 me there.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: We have to do that more

21 often here.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess the question
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1 now is, it's, I don't know, 4:30. No more? It's

2 probably a good break point rather than try to --

3 because the shipments will be something to --

4 MS. HOFFMAN: So we're going to formally

5 adjourn but that doesn't mean the manufacturers can

6 leave. You may want to meet. But we're going to be

7 off the record and we'll see you all tomorrow at 8:00

8 a.m. at the other building, 950 L'Enfant Plaza and

9 it's on the 7th floor in the conference room.

10 If you can't get in, then just call Ed,

11 because David will be there.

12 (Thereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the Meeting

13 Group was adjourned, to resume the following day, May

14 21 at 8:00 a.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Meeting May 20, 2015 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 I, LU ANNE DAWSON KIRKLAND, Court 

4 Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages 

5 were taken by me in stenotype and thereafter reduced 

6 to computerized transcription by me; that the 

7 foregoing is a true and correct record of the 

8 proceedings; that I am neither counsel for, related 

9 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action 

10 and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of 

11 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties 

12 thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in 

13 the outcome of the action. 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

LU ANNE DAWSON KIRKLAND 

Court Reporter 

266 

202-220-415 8 

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 

www.hendersonlegalservices.co1n 
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A

a.m 4:2 30:14

30:15 50:2,3

117:17

118:15 235:6

235:7 265:8

265:14

ability 39:5

206:21

able 43:14

56:22,22

121:8,12

148:6 186:20

187:2 223:2

226:4 249:1

258:9 261:15

261:17

above 112:17

146:3 190:8

209:17 228:3

235:18

absolutely

78:7 169:21

173:1 185:11

185:12

AC 8:9 28:15

42:12 257:4

accept 177:3

178:18 181:4

189:11

239:14

acceptable

45:15 238:18

Accepted

240:4

accepting

226:17

accessories

209:18 210:8

accommodate

203:6 238:10

accommoda...

214:9

according

133:4 230:7

257:1

account 13:11

158:8,17

177:5 254:8

accounts

253:15,19,19

255:10

accurate 83:6

181:7 196:7

ACEEE5:10

achieve 15:18

26:14

achieving 14:9

15:16

acidic 23:8

acids 23:13,18

across 27:6

29:9 38:4

60:10 77:2

112:2 129:15

130:19 165:4

169:6 170:17

172:10,22

175:10 193:3

207:9 226:6

230:1 232:15

acted 125:22

127:3

action 92:16

266:9,13

active 238:6

actual 51:12

82:22 106:3

142:9 198:11

203:19

205:14 222:9

259:10

262:17

actually 4:6

12:17 13:22

17:16 20:12

21:16 22:1,3

23:15 31:21

34:14 40:19

55:16 61:18

63:6 68:6

77:19 79:9

79:15,19

81:21 82:1

82:21 83:9

127:2 134:2

139:11 143:5

144:1 147:10

148:5,5

162:6 166:22

168:5 172:16

184:9,10

201:11 204:8

205:16 215:5

218:22 219:9

236:6 243:12

244:21 245:4

245:12 250:3

256:18

Adam 2:10 7:5

8:12 10:22

18:7 19:18

19:22 26:5

31:15,17

adapted 78:2

adapter 43:21

75:4 77:11

83:20 84:22

90:1 91:8

98:13,19

99:16 100:1

100:5 105:21

106:21 160:6

210:12

adapters 75:7

75:22 76:2

80:22 92:14

219:11,15

adaptor 84:2

90:20 96:2,7

97:11 99:21

adaptors

43:21 44:1,5

86:4

add 25:13

74:12 126:11

127:9 152:1

152:20

203:21 204:3

206:10

209:19 210:9

218:7,9

255:16

added 89:16

89:17 129:14

143:17

195:14 210:8

210:8,12

218:6

adding 51:19

114:18

147:11,16

201:20

202:12

247:11,17

258:6

addition 12:2

additional

19:21 31:3

36:16 44:3

48:22 51:6

56:17 57:7

163:21 253:6

263:4

additions

218:6

additive

263:17

address 42:2

184:7

addressed

80:14

adds 145:13

209:17

ADFR257:2,9

adjourn 117:1

188:2 265:5

adjourned

127:14

265:13

adjust 77:13

78:4 148:17

148:19 212:6

adjusted

111:19 251:6

adjusting

69:18 160:12

adjustment

51:20,22

80:10 111:17

226:20,21

227:3,5

adjustments

78:20 221:7

ADL139:12,17

administer

134:7

admit 163:16

adopt 126:16

adopted 122:3

126:19

advanced 39:6

118:3

advantage

65:16 67:4

advantageous

148:4

advantages

93:2

advice 9:4

231:19

advisors 38:18

advocate 34:8

advocates

122:7

advocating

169:3

affect 55:12

105:6 198:21

198:22
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206:20 209:9

209:13

affecting

170:19,20

171:8 210:3

affects 15:17

68:21 197:11

afford 56:15

afraid 70:8

after 32:9 40:7

40:12,22

43:14 128:4

151:2 190:7

190:14

199:21

226:11

afternoon

97:17

AFUE14:6

again 16:12

17:18 21:2

27:15,20

28:13,20

29:2,6,8

30:22 36:8

40:18,21

58:17 67:15

77:6 83:7

104:7 111:9

112:8,11,14

112:20 113:1

113:7,10,21

119:9 123:10

123:11

129:20 130:2

130:12 131:9

132:21,22

134:7 143:12

149:17

157:15 159:9

159:11

161:10,17

163:5,6,9

164:4 167:19

168:15

171:20 172:4

172:22 173:6

175:2,3,8

176:4,11,16

176:19

177:14 182:4

184:17 189:2

189:19,20

191:18,19

192:20 193:1

199:5,7,12

200:5,11,12

200:14,17,19

201:4,10,18

201:22 202:4

202:6,12

203:3 210:3

210:10 223:5

223:16

224:17 225:2

230:2,16

233:2 238:13

241:15 242:1

242:1 246:8

246:14,17

247:10,16,18

247:21

248:21

250:11

251:22 256:6

256:12 258:4

258:6,8,19

258:22 261:3

261:8,8,14

against 186:11

agenda 8:10

119:20 120:2

120:3

aggregate

165:6

aggressive

243:15

ago 122:13

180:14

agree 22:2

34:15 42:7

94:8 135:10

135:15,16

150:6,8

179:10 182:1

212:20 213:1

237:9,9

249:14,15

agreeable

239:7 240:3

agreed 154:5

164:15

agreeing

125:1

agreement

122:4,4

123:5,11

138:5,6

Aha 91:6

ahead 154:22

187:9 207:18

232:17

250:20

AHRI 15:15,19

16:12 53:6

54:2 67:3

108:16

191:18

194:15,16

197:1,2

198:7,11

249:1,15

258:9,20

air 4:15 5:5

23:18 27:4

29:17 33:22

38:6 39:22

41:17 42:17

42:20 51:15

52:2,7,8,19

52:21 53:12

53:19 54:6,7

54:10 55:17

57:13 59:7,9

60:5 62:17

63:4,16 64:1

64:7,21,21

65:8,21 66:1

66:1,13 68:6

71:1,18 74:6

74:8 82:1

110:11,11

111:1 122:1

122:2 128:5

128:7 129:11

130:8 133:15

134:13,17,18

134:21 135:1

135:2,18

161:3,4

162:19 163:8

163:8 190:10

190:10,13,13

190:19,20

199:14,15,17

199:17,18,19

199:20,22

200:15,22

201:2,2

238:9,10,12

238:18,19,20

238:22 241:4

241:6,9,20

241:22 242:3

242:3 243:3

243:9,13

244:3,10,13

244:19,21

245:1,13,22

246:4,9,16

246:17 247:5

256:9,10

258:12,15,16

258:17,18

air-conditio...

28:7 75:2

128:14

135:21

all 4:11 7:13

8:12,22 9:8

9:22 12:7

13:22 20:14

29:10,16

31:22 38:4

38:18 43:6,8

43:9 44:18

44:19 49:10

52:4 53:13

54:7 55:9

58:7 60:1,17

60:19 61:20

62:1,2 66:20

67:21 68:16

68:17 69:19

70:3 72:17

73:16,20

74:13 75:22

76:2,3,7,8,11

78:8,19 79:6

82:19 84:12

84:20,22

85:3 88:4,18

93:9 96:4,4

98:22 99:6

101:1 106:3

112:2,16

116:3,3,9,9

116:15

117:13 118:5

121:8,10

122:8 123:17

123:20

130:18 131:2

135:17 139:4

139:5,12

148:16,17

150:22

152:14,15

153:7,21

156:9 157:17
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158:17 163:3

165:13 167:6

168:8 169:3

173:5 176:8

181:19,20

182:4 186:12

186:20 190:7

190:9,9,16

193:22

196:16 197:5

199:21,22

205:16,16

206:10 207:8

211:3,18

214:7,15

218:5 219:2

219:10,12,22

223:1,11

226:3 227:1

228:3 230:5

230:13,13

231:3 232:11

235:18 237:2

237:4 238:13

242:18 246:7

246:9,10,22

250:15,22

254:7,12

258:19

262:22 263:3

265:7

Alliance 5:7

Allied 5:4 28:9

94:8 105:11

154:8

allow 58:16

77:4 110:10

allowed 143:9

almost 32:19

39:5 64:2

77:16 104:21

116:3 142:4

165:18 227:7

along 189:15

194:2 235:8

239:3

alpha 149:11

already 10:18

30:5 46:8

48:1,19

158:19

189:12

198:20 226:2

242:15

also 4:9,10

6:12 13:11

13:17 20:22

24:18 26:15

26:19 27:4

32:14 41:3,4

44:2,11

45:10 52:12

59:11 64:1

69:20 81:20

82:22 83:15

83:18 86:6

97:5,13 98:3

99:3 104:11

112:21

116:12 123:6

124:10

141:20

142:22 145:3

145:8 161:8

174:16 183:1

193:17

198:17 199:4

206:19 207:4

209:3 214:2

219:9 222:3

222:6,19

231:21

239:14 243:3

247:21

249:16

258:11

altered 26:14

although 19:5

36:13 78:3

110:6

aluminized

12:6,9,12

13:10 20:9

24:4,12

always 40:4

93:18 106:15

107:10

144:14

177:14

186:22

226:13 245:5

am 7:8 9:22

18:18 59:22

251:10 266:8

266:10

ambient 51:17

71:5 73:6,12

73:19 74:17

ambitious

101:8

America 4:16

American

240:5

among 35:15

214:15

amongst

226:4

amount 15:18

60:16 171:8

171:11

175:16

180:22 197:6

229:14,18

amounts 72:1

analogy 39:14

155:3

analyses

43:13 46:6

73:11 88:9

140:13 141:5

analysis 9:17

11:4,6,17,22

13:8 24:2

28:10 31:4,9

31:10 36:11

36:16 37:17

38:4 40:1

41:18 42:3

42:21 43:9

43:17 44:6

45:11 60:1

61:14 63:12

63:20 65:7

69:21,22

75:1 89:10

90:6,10,12

90:17 96:6

97:10 98:5

101:14,17

109:11,20

120:7 131:10

133:11 134:8

135:7,20

141:2 142:18

143:3,9,18

144:12 145:8

148:6 150:8

150:11 154:6

160:7 164:19

174:21

175:21 177:3

177:7 178:2

178:3,11,15

179:11,16,20

180:12

182:14

183:17

184:10 186:2

186:13,19

189:18,21

190:5 191:3

194:3 197:12

198:1 199:9

201:17

231:22 232:9

237:2,4

239:5,16

252:21

260:20

analysts 130:5

179:17 182:5

analytic 154:4

analytically

37:15 82:20

analyze

197:16

200:20

261:15,17

analyzed

113:6 200:9

235:15

Andrew 2:13

7:7 21:2 22:2

23:20 80:8

99:11 119:18

126:11

152:15 154:7

157:15

158:14

232:18

239:20 250:1

259:14 261:8

263:13

Andrew's

150:21

Andy18:16

animal 162:20

ANNE266:3

266:17

annual 170:1

177:4

another 22:19

40:22 79:11

104:16

105:20

140:19

148:21

150:14 167:1

177:6 191:18

205:15
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

206:15 209:2

212:20

221:16

230:16

232:19

251:18 252:6

answer 9:11

10:9,10,17

10:18 32:11

34:2,4,13

35:4 45:17

126:8 128:2

149:1 158:13

176:10 193:3

208:8 209:16

215:3 251:11

answered

72:11

answering

24:21 128:6

answers 8:21

9:7 35:18

121:15

138:14 209:7

210:5 220:14

230:22 252:1

anybody72:12

109:15

anybody's

76:5

Anyhow9:4

anymore 87:11

anyone 31:3

127:9 128:19

137:3

anything 9:19

10:3 33:13

45:15 72:13

101:18,19

127:10

172:21 180:2

184:2 185:10

204:7 210:3

218:1 225:4

anyway 146:13

148:15

187:22 263:3

anywhere

135:9 168:21

169:10

APA185:4,12

apologize 9:13

appeal 89:3

appear 10:9

appearance

254:9

appearances

2:1 3:2

254:11

appears 50:8

105:17

appliance

123:8,9

124:13

applicable

81:17

application

134:6

applied 104:6

112:4 175:21

175:22 190:7

190:9,16

199:14 200:1

201:5,8,14

235:17,18

237:1,3,11

238:12

241:18,19

247:13

258:15

applies 27:16

45:14 162:2

199:4

apply 168:16

177:16

196:16

199:18

applying

142:18

appreciate

206:7

approach 44:4

84:8 111:13

113:3 134:6

146:13,14,15

147:7 148:7

148:16

173:13 193:6

239:20

approaching

215:22

appropriate

197:3 202:10

239:10,17

approximate

163:2,4

approximately

52:4,12

arbitrary

167:15

area 11:21

12:2 20:21

26:19 95:9

97:4 99:5

103:15,21

106:4,9

222:20

249:19

areas 106:3

133:8

aren't 61:15,15

132:17

259:16

261:20

argue 81:6,20

205:18

253:17

argument

255:4

arms 60:19

around 4:7

17:10,11

29:4 39:20

44:19 45:13

78:9 125:6

127:5 130:14

138:20 151:1

174:6 181:19

203:16

204:12

213:12 235:4

236:1 253:18

259:8,13

arrived 123:16

arrow 142:13

ASHRAE

38:22 54:16

70:18 86:14

156:17

186:11 238:8

249:12 262:3

aside 225:1,3

ask 7:16 14:11

72:17 79:16

80:20 87:2

109:10 150:3

191:3,8

194:11

204:14

205:22 208:9

214:4 220:12

222:7 224:15

225:5,17

231:3

asked 8:14

9:18 10:8

22:16 35:17

72:10 104:19

109:9 124:5

193:2 206:14

239:20

251:22

asking 4:10

47:21,22

56:4 136:22

225:2 231:7

aspect 84:14

93:15

aspects

158:18

ASRAC1:2

assembled

79:6

assessed

113:16

assessment

96:19

assign 165:1

associate

155:15

245:20

associated

57:8 97:13

109:16

131:11 145:7

146:1 168:17

association

123:9

assume 8:16

9:8 12:1

31:12 71:1,4

116:19 144:3

161:5 162:2

162:22

166:13

171:11

assumed

11:22 13:7,9

39:4 94:17

98:5 131:6

147:14 203:1

218:5 244:19

247:22

250:15 251:4

251:17

assumes 24:2

assuming 7:8

12:6 65:15

71:14 74:5

76:16 96:1
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

97:20 98:17

161:14 183:3

213:16,19

246:18

assumption

11:20 12:11

20:10 68:14

95:18 97:11

98:8 106:15

128:13 173:8

203:4 219:18

225:14

238:21

241:16

243:15 246:9

246:13

assumptions

171:17

179:17

asterisks

47:12

attainments

26:13

attempt 97:8

ATTENDEE

3:19

attentive 101:1

attorney

266:11

attractive

261:6,20

audible 231:13

authority

30:13 126:1

126:16

automatically

93:20

automobile

93:22

AV53:11

availability

16:13

available

22:22 49:3,8

66:18 110:19

184:17 185:7

200:20

Avenue1:14

average 14:7,7

17:4,12

18:20 31:8

31:18 32:5

35:21,22

36:12 76:12

76:15 111:14

128:10,12

130:3 131:1

139:20

140:11 169:9

174:1 188:16

204:12

205:15 217:9

217:10 252:6

256:16

averaged

76:11 188:18

205:16

averages

35:13 192:17

avoid 23:5

aware 93:1

away 45:17

72:17 96:21

130:10

157:11 160:6

164:12 178:8

186:15 207:2

234:7,9

245:18

axis 105:13

B

B 75:20 82:18

94:14,14

95:20,22

96:3,21

back 7:8 14:18

17:3 30:16

30:17 31:6

31:14 32:8

32:16,20

33:20 35:19

38:14 40:2

40:22 42:14

46:10,13,17

47:8 49:21

50:4,5,11

53:6 61:4

67:17 68:8

70:4 73:2,5

74:13,20

88:16,17

99:10 100:21

109:12 115:5

115:6 117:2

117:10,10

119:9 127:13

136:1 142:15

151:5 152:8

153:4 161:15

173:17

181:10

183:17

187:16,22

188:6,7,15

190:18

192:11,15

193:2 195:6

196:10

204:14

205:12

210:10

213:10

216:14

219:12 223:6

226:1 229:21

231:20 238:2

240:11,20

242:11

245:12

250:13 256:6

256:19

back-and-fo...

43:18

backed 141:12

background

238:14

backhanded

39:7

backing

240:19

bad 69:4 78:6

83:18,20

badge 118:7

118:10

ballpark 174:7

224:21

Bantle 2:3

5:19,19 6:11

48:13 49:1

49:16,20

80:15 177:8

bar 98:20

99:14 100:8

104:20 105:1

105:6,10

107:2 177:15

177:16

Barkas 2:2 4:4

barn 48:20

49:11

base 13:12

15:13 24:11

26:14 27:17

28:3,14 35:8

80:5,11

94:12 95:9

95:12 97:4

99:5,18

103:1,3,15

106:3 134:8

144:18

151:16,17

170:10,14

176:15 228:2

228:14 258:3

based 13:16

15:14 16:12

19:20 25:6

33:12 36:1

38:21 52:22

53:2 66:17

74:17 81:7

93:22 110:1

110:18 113:5

113:11

122:11 130:7

131:3 134:9

148:3 163:7

164:17

188:15

190:22 196:5

197:13 200:8

207:15

212:10

216:13 217:5

220:7 223:8

227:8 228:3

228:8,15

231:11

235:13 236:2

239:13 242:1

245:16 251:7

252:4 259:1

baseline 31:22

51:15 52:2

80:14 87:16

87:17,22

88:14,15

89:1 91:2

97:6 99:17

107:2 112:14

112:17

113:14,17

131:7 147:19

148:19

199:13 201:1

201:1 204:2

213:13 216:6

216:20
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

227:18,21

228:21

258:14

baselines

148:17

basic 67:5

149:9

basically

11:18 14:13

14:17 36:12

48:3 74:16

90:13 98:10

106:14

109:19 110:8

110:16 113:4

151:14

169:14

193:13

197:21

238:11

basis 149:8

176:21

256:16

Battaglia 7:3,3

111:9,10

112:11 113:9

113:14

114:14 115:1

115:9,14,17

116:18

bear 50:15

bed 42:3

beds 116:4

Beef 136:20

before 14:6

18:19 32:1

35:6 45:21

49:9 101:4,5

119:4,4,8

122:10

123:21 127:7

127:19

133:16

135:22

173:17

174:19

189:20

238:22

240:20 243:4

247:1 251:16

beginning

182:7

behalf 205:1

behavior

172:10

behind 8:22

153:12

being 13:16,18

17:8 28:7

33:12 36:10

56:22 63:15

63:21 65:1

107:1 115:21

121:8 123:22

134:11

136:22 149:6

154:19 176:9

180:16

183:20

202:20 203:8

207:19

224:10

236:20

241:18,18

243:14 251:9

255:12

263:18

belabor 153:3

believe 6:1

29:3 37:18

46:7 85:2

86:11 117:18

119:1 130:14

130:17 198:7

210:17

232:12 241:5

243:9 262:3

below 130:13

166:7,10

167:13,20

169:22

221:22

238:22 243:4

243:8

belt 11:11

118:13

benefit 14:9

15:17 18:10

18:15 230:17

benefits 17:19

17:21 24:8

82:1

benefitting

14:14,14,15

Berkeley 6:21

74:14

besides 15:9

best 8:19 9:4

50:19 163:2

179:19 180:3

180:18

262:21

bet 211:9

better 21:17

79:16 88:8

88:10 97:9

142:8 154:1

156:12

170:15

179:17 181:3

198:14 218:1

221:8 254:6

between 4:20

32:20,22

35:15 54:10

73:17 91:15

92:2 98:20

102:12,14

104:22 107:2

114:22 122:6

123:6 124:11

148:19 155:9

163:10,18

171:9 174:2

181:12 184:5

184:6 186:11

206:11

214:22

219:15

232:13

beyond 9:12

36:4 150:3

200:6

bid 224:21

bids 222:16

223:15

big 10:13

18:19 25:22

26:15 27:20

29:6 96:18

115:21 132:3

132:4 133:7

140:12

162:12 169:6

188:5 190:17

207:11

212:19

213:17

222:15,20

230:21 231:1

231:4 234:21

235:12

247:18 253:4

254:22

255:10,12,13

255:16

bigger 68:22

78:4,9 94:11

115:13

116:16

133:12

139:18 207:2

215:21 216:4

216:7 217:1

biggest 131:21

206:16

bill 158:9

bins 164:20

165:2,5

195:11

bit 9:16 32:19

36:20 44:17

55:8 56:15

61:3,4 67:15

68:6 69:2,15

73:8 74:6

75:13 78:3,5

82:1,12

90:15 92:18

97:10 98:19

103:16

105:14 133:9

135:14

137:21

139:17,19

142:15 147:2

155:19

157:10

166:15

171:16,16

175:19 176:7

182:6 200:18

202:18

205:20

229:20

240:19

243:14 245:4

251:21

blank 8:2

11:22

blown 253:5

blue 166:7,8

166:12 168:7

board 111:19

130:19 169:6

172:22 226:6

Bob 4:18

22:14 23:21

33:6 53:14

57:15 58:18
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

88:12 101:11

102:18

110:21 112:3

113:22

117:10

135:22 152:3

155:1 185:13

215:3 240:9

240:10

262:11

Bob's 36:3

boiler 125:12

132:13

boilers 126:13

126:14,16

bolded 13:5

190:3

boldly 196:6

BOMA 249:10

249:10

book 202:18

booklet 75:21

76:12,21

77:17 78:21

78:22 82:19

boom 207:3

223:2

BOOTMAN

133:2

bosses 121:11

both 53:16

87:17 101:7

125:15

137:11

139:22 201:8

201:12 214:8

232:22

bother 178:18

bothers 153:5

153:10

bottom 34:5

34:12 43:22

129:13,15

152:19

165:20

bounce 259:12

bouncing

259:8

bound 124:6

171:21 173:6

180:4

bounds 185:9

box 250:15

254:22

255:11,16

boxes 57:8,12

59:8 161:5

245:15

bracket 230:9

brain 125:8

brainer 251:1

brand 76:1,4

77:3,10,10

77:17,18

brands 77:5

255:11

breadth

179:22

break 30:10,11

30:12 46:22

49:2 100:14

100:21

117:13

187:14,16,16

195:22

227:15

252:22 265:2

breakdown

27:10

breaking

185:12

briefing 257:8

briefly 175:2

bright 39:2

bring 8:5 82:8

117:21 118:1

135:2 138:1

138:2,2

197:7

bringing

133:14

137:10

broadly 126:3

bros 12:3

brought 37:21

42:1 82:10

bucks 204:3

204:12

229:19

budget 225:6

build 182:7

building 1:12

40:1,3,8,14

40:18,19,20

41:4,11 42:1

57:7 74:15

77:4 100:5

131:19 132:4

141:3,12

142:10 143:4

143:21

145:13,21,22

161:1,18

163:4,8,9

165:6,7,9,16

166:16,19

167:21 168:3

174:10,14

175:5 176:1

176:5 184:16

199:10,19,20

200:2 206:22

207:2 209:22

222:21 223:1

225:5 234:1

234:5,9,22

240:16,22

241:3,13,16

242:7,13

243:7 244:1

244:3 246:16

254:1,6

265:8

buildings

33:10,14

40:5 142:6

161:3,5,7

168:17 174:3

174:8,11

175:6 180:20

190:1,9,13

190:14,16,20

199:15 200:4

200:15 201:6

201:6,9

242:18 246:4

246:6,10,11

258:12,13,16

258:17,18

bulb 37:4

164:20 165:1

bulbs 37:5

bulk 13:9

bullet 238:14

bullets 91:9

95:21

bump 89:22

92:7

bump-up

259:22

bunch 16:4

35:16 225:15

225:22

business 8:6

254:12

button 236:7

buy 62:21 64:6

66:6 253:21

buying61:18

66:11,15

248:12

250:21

253:20

254:15,16

C

C 4:1 21:17

22:1

cabinet 60:5,8

93:21 104:14

112:3,5

113:15,18

calculate

165:3

calculated

82:20 113:10

calculation

45:8,9 51:19

70:5 73:7

82:21 88:1,8

110:1,8

175:13

calculations

73:5 82:19

110:12

calculator

232:1

calibration

192:21

California 5:3

159:8,15

166:6 177:2

239:12

call 75:6 99:20

119:4 227:17

265:10

called 120:2,3

124:17 142:2

159:15

calling 75:5

168:10

came 35:18

73:2 90:10

90:13 98:10

193:2 206:18

206:19

240:20

Canada 24:16

capabilities

97:22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

capable 160:3

capacities

95:1 98:8,9

capacity 73:12

73:15,18

74:10 89:16

94:14,15,20

104:13 110:9

163:10 191:7

207:22 208:1

209:3 210:5

211:13

213:21

227:12

capture 230:6

captured

129:7,10

captures

157:16

capturing

80:11 100:7

100:8 129:6

156:2,5

157:15

card 4:19

care 211:18

228:4 229:22

230:10,14

cares 230:10

Carlos 179:21

carried 36:10

36:15 37:10

Carrier 4:19

22:15 33:7

53:15 57:16

65:12,13

66:7,10 77:9

77:12,12

88:13 101:12

110:21 114:1

185:14

case 10:12

13:13 15:13

16:18 26:14

27:18 28:3,3

28:14,14

35:8 71:6

80:11 83:19

87:17 88:17

99:18 104:14

114:12

123:12 124:7

124:14 126:1

126:4,12

144:18

147:22

151:16,17

176:15 178:5

184:11

185:21 225:9

225:10 238:7

241:5 258:2

258:3,3

263:8

cases 58:15

81:20 103:17

176:16

188:17

casing 92:7

catalog 64:14

catch 219:2

category 60:11

102:10

caucus 233:3

233:18

cause 64:10

218:19

causes 23:18

CAV52:14

55:15 56:8

61:17,19

67:13,15,21

68:8 69:6

112:15

114:15 145:5

201:5,8

214:12

228:12

240:16,21

241:2,13,16

242:7,18

243:6 244:1

244:3

CAVs 68:9

114:13

242:19

CBECS 132:22

133:4 165:7

168:17 172:5

196:14

257:13

cell 121:14

census 165:21

198:9

Center 166:3

254:21

central 122:1,2

162:7,19

166:1,1,4,4

certain 13:13

21:10 93:17

131:11 142:6

171:11

180:22

186:19 197:6

225:7

certainly 47:3

57:17 60:18

76:20 88:7

88:10 90:22

106:19

109:12,16

113:21 114:3

125:12 132:3

132:6 214:10

225:9 229:11

261:18

CERTIFICATE

266:1

certification

67:2,3,7

certify 266:4

cetera 144:18

144:18 166:3

209:11

CFM 76:16

chain 121:13

Challenge

159:16

chance 159:9

213:6

change 11:21

14:5 15:9

17:19 18:19

26:9,9 27:20

28:2 42:13

64:21 65:13

71:19 81:1

86:14 92:6

96:14,17

114:16

128:18,18

137:21 145:2

150:8,10,11

150:22 153:5

157:2 160:7

160:15,15,18

164:1 168:12

170:1,16

171:18

172:10

175:10,17

176:12

181:11,21

190:3,17

199:5 203:1

209:10

218:18,20

219:8,12

220:4,5

221:12

230:22 231:5

231:10

235:12 239:1

239:7 245:15

247:18

258:21 264:4

changed 12:1

15:14 18:14

27:15,18

47:10 112:12

144:10 219:7

243:19

changes 13:20

15:9 26:11

39:21 43:2

81:13 94:2

105:13,14

139:16,17

141:7 144:11

150:3 158:2

160:8 164:6

164:8 178:19

191:16

200:12

248:20 263:4

changing 35:9

86:3 160:14

175:19

180:12

198:18 220:1

channel 93:1,9

93:14,15,19

94:10

characteristi...

59:20

characterized

137:19

Charlie 2:17

4:14,15

186:7

chart 100:8

170:9 172:21

178:5 189:19

190:2 211:4

212:1,7

224:8 246:20

charts 92:12

99:14 104:20

105:1,6,10
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

107:3

chase 257:21

chassis 86:9

96:22 103:10

103:15

cheaper 212:1

212:5 213:1

check 49:2,20

70:3 100:13

100:15

117:18

120:12 198:1

232:17

257:20

check-in 118:4

checked 73:1

73:4

checks 82:22

Chevron

189:19

chew 37:20

chilled 162:7

choice 65:17

66:17 67:1

176:2

choices 67:8

choose 22:19

22:19 24:15

24:17 58:15

98:11

chooses 61:17

choosing

56:20 57:1

230:1

chose 58:22

chosen 95:8

194:6

clarification

221:21

clarify 138:19

class 58:21

59:16 60:14

89:14 90:7,7

90:8 92:6

99:2,3,4

134:2 135:9

263:4

classes 37:19

38:4,6,8,10

90:11,14

94:22 133:12

133:21 134:9

138:7 191:7

258:5

clean 141:8

clear 58:14

102:4 166:21

193:21 227:3

Clearly 9:20

climates 41:14

clock 117:10

251:14

close 41:21

69:16 70:8

110:1,7

144:21 189:3

205:17 217:9

222:22

223:12 236:7

236:9,10

249:9

closely 26:7

202:18

closer 52:13

102:12 173:4

225:21

244:22

clot 168:3

clothes 122:20

123:11,12

256:10

coal 140:15

coast 205:10

coasting 71:22

coefficient

142:16,19

coil 93:2,5

162:8

coils 57:22

162:14

215:11

cold 133:15

166:8 245:3

colder 24:16

41:14 71:17

collected

194:21

235:14

collecting 54:2

collectively

60:21

colors 15:2

column 17:21

68:3 75:15

151:9 228:10

259:19

261:10

263:15

combination

24:3 60:14

combine 141:3

combustion

23:13,18

come 48:8

49:21 60:12

86:18 100:21

109:12 117:1

117:2 119:5

127:4 130:6

149:17 167:8

185:17

187:16,20

189:22 226:1

226:3 231:2

263:1

comes 38:5

124:22

125:13 148:1

183:15 245:1

comfort 254:9

comfortable

50:13 81:16

180:6 187:7

coming 10:9

68:15 71:15

71:15 149:19

161:15

192:20

229:21

236:22 260:1

command

121:13

comment 95:3

134:5 161:19

185:2 194:19

195:7 213:10

256:5

commentary

97:17

commented

141:17

comments

112:10 121:2

183:7 203:14

251:7

commercial

8:9 11:3

29:16 33:22

76:10,17

104:4 127:20

128:5,7,14

135:18

185:16 198:7

256:8 257:2

257:4,15,16

commercials

88:5

commission...

214:8 229:6

committee

70:19 153:17

174:20

committees

38:22

communicat...

185:6

companies

108:15

Company

151:4

comparable

84:12,13

112:7 259:17

259:18

compare

55:22 58:6

63:21 68:3

73:9 112:5

155:20

186:12

259:20

264:11

compared

47:10 56:8

68:10 259:15

compares

173:20

comparing

105:12 174:9

comparison

52:13 173:22

186:10

250:22

compass

234:4

competitive

101:14

competitor's

88:20

competitors'

62:6

complete 8:7

43:7 184:3

completed

43:12

completely

35:8 87:5

105:16

157:21

167:13 225:4
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

complex

135:16 148:6

229:17

260:20

complexity

61:12 229:12

complicated

61:4 133:10

compliment

39:8

comply 9:8

component

26:15 45:7

46:5 48:4

51:8 147:11

components

51:18 69:10

164:9

compression

244:15

compressor

73:13,16

74:10 109:22

111:4 155:7

155:8 159:22

172:17

191:13

243:12 247:4

247:5,7,16

247:20 248:1

248:7,11

250:1,2,4,6

250:21 251:4

251:14,18

252:18 253:5

253:6

compressors

110:5,16,18

215:12,13

218:6 244:16

248:9 252:19

253:1

computer

82:20 118:13

computerized

266:6

concentrated

131:18

concept 70:18

concern 48:22

153:22 169:5

197:10

207:11

concerned

48:7 150:16

150:17

concur 236:6

condensation

21:9 23:2,14

24:20 25:5

condenser

74:5 142:16

142:19

159:18,19

condensing

23:11

condensive

61:8

condition

158:1,1,7

conditioner

40:1 41:17

122:1 129:12

130:9

conditioners

122:2 256:10

conditioning

4:16 42:18

42:20

conditions

71:1,5,13,18

83:22

conducted

44:3 90:12

conduction

23:5

conference

118:22 265:9

confidence

211:22

confirmed

219:18,19

confirming

214:11

conflict 33:18

conflicts 33:17

confusing

63:8

confusion

64:11

Congress

125:12 127:3

connected

84:4

connections

210:16 224:4

consensus

122:4,11

149:22

182:10

conservation

158:16

conservative

180:17

conservativ...

67:8

consider

54:21 91:1

115:12

174:11 209:6

consideration

182:15 191:2

231:17

considered

51:13 90:21

165:3 179:12

considering

96:2 112:1

115:14

consistency

204:9

consistent

17:8 28:6

40:21 72:21

110:3 176:19

178:15

consistently

35:18

consolidated

116:7,9,13

consolidation

87:6

constant

51:15 52:2,7

52:8,15

55:17 57:13

59:7,9 60:4

62:17 63:4

64:1,7,20

65:8,20

66:13 67:6

68:5 131:7

161:2 163:8

190:10,13,19

199:13,14,17

199:18,19

200:14,22

201:2 202:1

214:6 238:9

238:18

245:13 246:4

246:9,16

258:12,15,17

constructed

12:13,16

construction

98:18 100:4

100:9 147:11

209:16 232:1

235:20 236:2

consult 20:22

233:3

Consulting 7:2

42:20

consumer

62:21 63:7

158:9 189:22

consumers

263:6,7,10

263:15,20

264:9

consumption

142:13 143:1

143:13 145:7

145:11 153:9

153:14 154:2

155:16,22

168:8,9

172:8 175:16

177:4

context 159:14

223:17

contingencies

225:8

continue 9:9

149:3 157:17

CONTINUED

3:2

continuing

159:22 160:1

continuous

61:13

continuously

54:6

continuum

61:13

contractor

66:6 218:7

224:22

contractors

4:16 6:16

18:4 35:17

36:1 183:21

184:6 185:7

204:6 225:3

contrast 14:20

contribution

170:21

control 39:2

55:13 111:19
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

114:16 229:8

controls

111:18 115:1

convenient

218:18

convention

145:9

conventional

19:11

converge

149:12

converging

149:10,13,14

conversation

38:17 193:20

195:10,15

conversations

254:21

conversion

44:6 75:5

76:8,9 77:3

78:10,15

106:13,15

108:1 145:10

145:12

147:12,14

157:20 158:3

191:5 200:5

201:10,14

221:13

235:10,13,15

235:21

236:21

260:13

conversions

77:8

convert 165:8

conveyor

118:13

convinced

173:5

cool 169:22

182:16

cooled 173:19

cooler 74:8

167:5

cooling 23:3

141:14,19,21

142:1,2

144:4 153:15

156:13

159:16,19

161:13,13

164:7 166:2

166:9,17

167:12,22

169:15

170:19

171:13,14

172:13

173:18

174:15

254:20

copies 7:14,22

72:5

corporate

254:11

correct 16:6,6

19:17 20:20

63:19 77:15

90:15 99:22

102:17 111:3

115:9 117:20

144:16

147:21 153:1

167:10

171:17 195:2

222:1 232:3

234:9 237:6

237:7 242:14

246:18 250:5

263:22 266:7

corrected

159:2

correction

167:8

correctly

35:12 263:15

correlated

106:6

correlates

106:13 193:5

correlation

69:21 73:16

74:3,10

102:6,14

106:6,8

218:15

correlations

45:10 70:22

73:22 74:15

74:18 110:15

110:17

correspondi...

108:9

corrosion 23:5

23:6

cost 14:10,13

14:16 15:8,8

15:9,16

18:19,21

19:1 25:14

25:15,21

26:7 27:14

31:9,11,14

31:19 32:5

32:20,22

33:2,10,15

36:11 39:2

44:11 84:11

84:13 87:16

97:13 111:11

112:13,19

128:10,12,15

128:15 141:4

189:17,20

190:4 199:11

202:6,12,16

202:17,18,19

204:17,18,21

205:2 206:16

207:20,21

209:10,13,17

209:20

210:12,18

211:8 217:16

218:10 227:9

227:11

228:22

235:15

236:11

243:11

248:10

249:20 250:1

251:1 260:5

260:6,13,15

263:20

264:10,10

costs 12:21

14:15 15:11

15:12 26:5

26:16 32:22

39:3 64:7

75:3,11

100:19 101:5

111:7,18

112:6,6,8

113:2,4,9,11

115:6 128:12

131:10 191:5

191:11,12

203:1,5,14

204:7,9

206:14,20,20

210:8,9,15

213:20 216:2

221:13,22,22

222:3,6,11

222:13,15,17

224:7,8

226:11

227:17 229:6

238:1,4

239:4,15

247:17 253:9

260:3,4

261:4,13

263:6,7,11

263:16

Coughlin 2:9

6:20,20

135:19

140:22

145:20 146:7

146:10,17,22

147:9,21

151:7,11,13

152:2,5,9,12

152:21

154:21 157:1

157:19 159:4

160:17 164:4

169:16

170:18

171:20

172:20 173:9

174:5,18

198:15

Council 5:14

counsel 5:16

266:8,11

count 36:22

37:2 252:20

counting

111:19

country 40:8

168:19 207:8

couple 11:3

13:5 41:22

119:10 121:2

121:18

131:19 188:8

188:18 193:3

203:13

232:18

237:17

coupled 74:15

course 29:10

66:9 106:7

131:22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

143:17 170:3

182:3 210:2

court 4:11

266:1,3,17

cover 225:7

233:12

covered 55:6

109:18

128:13

covers 74:22

crafty 66:5

crane 202:17

202:19 203:1

206:19,19,20

206:21 207:3

208:16,17

209:11,21

210:3 221:22

222:3,5,11

222:15,17

223:1 224:7

224:8 225:16

253:9

cranes 202:20

222:21

cranes' 226:2

crank 222:21

230:16,17

cranked 98:10

cranking

151:1

crazy 204:6

create 81:22

164:19

created 69:20

creates 142:22

creating 158:1

cross 77:2

230:6

cross- 76:7

cross-refere...

257:17

CUAC17:8

38:9 40:15

40:16,18

42:10,21

129:11

189:18

256:16

CUAC/CWAF

1:2

curb 43:20,21

43:22 44:5

75:4,6,22

76:2 77:11

77:14 78:1

78:10 80:10

80:21 81:17

83:20 84:22

86:4 88:21

89:2,12 90:1

90:2,3,20

91:8 92:14

93:2 96:2,7

96:13,14

97:11 98:13

98:19 99:16

99:21 100:1

100:4 105:21

106:4,9,14

106:15,20

107:10 108:1

145:11,12

146:5,16

147:8,12,14

157:9,20

158:3 160:6

179:4 180:13

191:5 200:5

201:14

219:11,15

235:10,15,21

260:1,10,13

curbs 44:6

75:6 76:8,9

77:3 78:15

89:4 96:18

108:9,13

146:14

201:10

221:14

235:13

236:21

curiosity 131:2

curious 31:8

80:19 82:3

173:16

current 137:20

155:4 158:11

170:5 180:18

192:14 217:6

currently

84:17 100:2

246:4

curve 43:21

210:11

curves 44:11

112:13

customer 25:1

25:4 33:3

58:9 64:6

65:4 252:15

254:8

customer's

253:2

customers

22:22 24:15

24:16 25:2

86:20

cut 116:1

184:16

cut-and-paste

151:19

cutting 176:10

CVS 255:13

CWAF40:14

40:19

cycle 29:3

36:11 129:20

141:4 189:17

190:4 199:11

254:18

cycles 142:20

cyclic 51:22

Cymbalsky 2:4

5:18,18 7:18

9:15 10:11

11:13 14:21

15:3 16:1

30:4 34:2,19

35:3 36:18

40:16 41:2,7

41:20 42:11

48:12 49:11

49:15 51:3

72:7 85:12

85:17 86:1

87:15 89:2,7

101:3,8

117:21 118:3

118:8,11,19

119:1,6

125:14,19

130:18 136:8

136:11,13,18

137:2,6,14

138:13,21

139:2,7,10

139:15 140:2

140:5,18

150:14

151:22

152:18 177:9

177:12

179:14

181:14

182:22 183:3

184:8 185:18

186:17

187:13 206:6

207:6 213:4

213:17

218:22 219:4

220:6 227:4

229:21 230:4

230:19

231:10

232:11 233:6

233:9 234:2

234:4,8,12

234:16,21

236:14

237:14,18

248:3,10,15

250:19

251:10

255:19

264:13,16

D

D 2:3 4:1 103:1

104:3

D's 103:7

D.C 1:15

dangerous

180:2

Darlington

2:10 7:5,5

10:21,22

11:16 18:7

18:13 19:19

20:3,18

31:17

data 12:22

33:17 44:18

53:1,6,22

54:2,9 60:19

70:16 74:15

76:15 79:6

88:8,10

90:15,19

98:10 102:1

105:2,3

107:20

108:17

109:14 112:7

112:20 141:8

156:8 166:18

167:2,19

186:18,21,22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

191:17,17,19

191:22 193:9

193:12,13,22

194:7,14,20

196:13,17,18

197:1,2,14

197:14 198:5

198:6,9,12

199:3,10

200:20 202:3

202:9,18

207:21 209:2

249:1 253:12

253:14 255:2

255:21 256:2

258:9,20

261:16

database

249:12

date 8:5

138:11

dates 121:6

123:1 138:1

138:6

Dave 5:4 28:9

32:13 94:7

121:3

David 6:3

105:11 154:7

265:11

DAWSON

266:3,17

day 7:12 37:6

37:7,9

118:16 226:3

236:19

244:12

265:13

days 8:6 12:20

237:17

deal 140:12

169:6 230:21

231:1,4

232:22

dealing 35:6

38:22

dealt 109:20

debate 87:21

95:19 98:2

177:13

debated

255:22

DeBLASIS

223:4 224:6

257:11

260:19

decade 198:9

decide 46:4

143:22

149:21

191:21

decided 145:9

219:14

deciding 45:21

105:21

decision 9:12

66:19 131:13

147:2 150:17

150:22 160:9

174:18 181:5

181:18

232:14

248:16

250:20 251:5

decisions

10:15 252:16

253:3

decline 28:11

decrease

31:11 69:11

142:12

decreased

128:10

decreasingly

160:3

dedicated

134:20

deeper 34:22

206:5

Defense 5:14

deficiencies

210:7

defined 8:17

definitely

103:6 106:20

130:11

131:12 186:1

210:1 211:19

225:8 236:8

248:21

256:16

definition

241:17

definitive

239:3

degradation

142:16,19

143:14

175:14,18

degraded

176:9

degree 120:17

157:2 244:13

degrees 78:19

78:19 81:1

166:8,10

167:14,20

169:22

Del 3:11 5:22

6:8 221:11

221:17

deLASKI 2:13

7:7 18:16,17

19:10,15,20

21:1,2 23:20

24:7,10,21

25:4,8 32:3

32:13 34:6

34:16 36:2

80:8,8,13

86:10,19,22

89:4 99:9,12

99:20 119:8

119:13,16,19

120:6,9,12

120:16

122:15

123:17,19

124:4 125:18

125:21

126:21 127:7

128:20 129:2

129:6,9,13

129:18

137:16 138:5

146:11,20

147:5,16

148:2 149:2

149:7 150:10

152:10,17

153:2 154:19

154:22

155:14

156:11,19

157:14 179:1

182:1 192:1

192:5,8

194:4,10,15

194:19 195:2

195:6,18

197:19

223:13,20

224:14

231:13 232:5

233:2 249:22

250:7,10,14

255:7 259:14

261:7 263:13

264:6

delete 151:22

151:22

152:19

Delta 87:18

107:2 206:9

206:11

230:14

demand 252:9

density 74:7

Department

1:11 10:16

119:22 126:9

126:15 127:5

135:7 153:18

260:22

depend 164:6

170:9

depending

44:9 59:19

81:21 110:19

157:5 168:22

171:16

depends 93:4

94:8,11

derive 196:19

derived 198:8

deriving

198:13

describe 147:7

described

146:12 148:8

describes

160:9

describing

125:20 148:7

160:4

descriptions

44:14 47:9

50:22

design 23:9

39:1 83:11

83:18,20

154:16

180:18 190:8

190:12,15

199:8,17,18

199:19,20

200:9 201:1

201:8 238:12

240:15,17,21

240:21 241:2
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

241:4,6,12

241:13 244:2

244:12

246:21

258:13,14,15

designated

247:4

designed 22:4

83:14 201:17

designs 44:10

57:19 58:7

89:22 155:6

190:6 199:12

200:1 201:3

desired 110:7

Det 60:9

detail 43:4

51:6 62:1,7

73:3 109:19

200:20

detailed 224:5

261:16

details 44:14

51:1 58:6

163:17

173:10

detector 118:6

detectors

209:19

determine

74:16 239:9

determined

235:20

determining

146:13,15

Detlef 2:8 7:1

41:18 42:19

45:18 50:7

146:12

161:19

213:11

227:20

228:19 232:3

235:14

246:19

Detlef's 148:7

236:12

develop 125:3

developed

28:6 43:5

44:4,11 49:7

61:1 146:18

developing

49:9

development

65:2

diagonal 168:7

diamond

93:11,12

Diane 6:4,5,6

6:12 21:14

22:7,10 23:1

26:18 27:2

182:22 183:2

183:10 186:9

Dick 141:16

161:22

177:21

186:12

difference

26:10 115:4

142:5 144:3

148:14,18

162:10,11,12

163:18

165:19

173:20 174:2

176:20 178:8

206:2,3

208:19,20

213:5,18

214:19,21

222:9 229:20

230:7 253:10

264:12

differences

26:13 57:21

58:1 60:4

104:22 105:5

154:17

173:18

178:17

different 8:15

21:6 31:7,13

44:7,10 49:6

49:11 51:1

51:16,17

52:10 57:18

58:7,8,9,19

64:15 65:9

68:13 71:4

72:1 75:13

76:3,19 79:3

79:3 87:5

89:13 92:7,9

92:15 98:8

101:19

102:13 104:8

104:8,9,20

105:2,16

108:14

112:14

122:22 123:1

125:19

134:20 142:9

142:18 145:7

146:12,15

148:10,10,15

154:14,16

155:9,17

159:3 162:20

165:18

176:14

210:17

213:15 231:7

252:17 254:5

254:7 257:13

258:13 259:3

259:5 262:2

262:2,12,13

262:13,15,19

differently

78:14 93:3

99:13 172:19

difficult 58:5

62:10 134:7

135:11

166:20

197:13

226:12,12

difficulty 11:12

diffuser

190:19 191:2

200:7,13,15

201:15 238:1

238:4 239:1

239:4,15

241:2 243:5

243:10,16,17

244:1 245:2

261:4,12

diffusers

238:17,18

242:2,16

diffusion

244:20

dig 34:22

76:21 206:4

digest 29:18

76:7 239:9

262:22

digits 180:7

dime 150:20

dimensions

107:16

direct 93:6

257:20

direction 78:8

79:20,21

234:18

directions

179:3

directly 17:20

81:17

directory

15:15,20

16:13

disagree 132:5

disagreeing

154:10

disappointed

194:5 195:7

discernible

202:2

discharge

110:2,13,14

110:22 111:5

210:13

disclose 48:7

disclosed

45:22 46:3

47:13,14

disclosing

47:22

disclosure

47:3

disclosures

47:20

discount

249:4 256:4

256:13 257:3

257:7

discounted

198:20

discounting

250:12

discrepancies

139:8

discuss 50:20

141:9 195:5

discussed

11:19 111:21

143:20 145:5

147:17

discussing

43:4

discussion

11:5 19:2

20:7 30:8

42:8 43:20
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

51:5 75:5

87:21 109:19

138:18

169:18

171:22 188:7

190:22 194:2

discussions

8:20 19:21

44:20 45:2

53:4 75:9

158:20

dishwasher

124:10

disjointed

227:14

disparity 256:6

distance 81:22

82:1 209:21

209:22,22

distinct 38:9

distinction

54:6 66:22

distinctly 79:2

distinguish

134:14 162:6

distinguishing

163:10

distributed

164:16

175:10

distributing

72:9

distribution

15:13 27:18

28:2 35:9

44:9 90:10

90:13 98:7

98:11,16

108:6,13

157:9 165:3

236:21 242:4

242:4 258:17

distributions

199:5 237:4

258:2,7,8,12

258:21 259:1

divided 88:4

167:3

division

165:21

docket 30:5

document

253:13

documented

253:20

254:18

documents

256:7

DoE 5:17,18

8:15,18 9:15

9:18 10:13

16:1 36:18

41:2,20

122:1,3,11

122:19 124:5

124:8,19

125:2,11,16

125:22

179:15

181:15 184:5

184:8 186:13

248:4

DoE's 183:21

doing 39:2,15

48:15 84:8

112:1 113:2

114:16 115:7

139:3 147:4

147:22 149:4

150:2 165:10

179:21

184:20

186:15

210:21 217:8

225:15

237:18 254:5

dollars 25:22

27:14 94:3

211:8 250:9

Doppel 2:14

4:22,22 10:5

10:5 26:2

158:21,21

159:5 204:18

253:7,7

dots 105:10,18

105:19 168:7

double 111:18

215:8 237:18

downstream

11:5 13:7

45:11 59:8

112:22 141:5

189:4

drafts 105:12

dragging

116:5

dramatic 14:5

78:10

dramatically

18:14 261:10

draw 155:3

drawings

75:22

drew 83:9,9

driftline 257:8

drill 32:19

59:15

drive 59:12

154:17

164:11 229:9

254:9,12

driven 18:22

223:14

driver 175:15

224:1 251:4

driver's 117:22

118:1

drivers 15:11

160:2

drives 157:4

driving 26:9

31:11 41:15

71:21 103:22

260:14

drop 57:8,22

59:9 60:7

75:12 76:11

76:13,18

77:14 78:10

80:4 81:7,11

84:2 97:12

113:19

168:11

dropped 87:7

261:10

drops 55:2

75:11 78:2,9

79:13 245:2

dry 164:20,22

DSL-1 32:13

DSL-2 32:14

duct 80:21

82:6 188:8

204:16

210:15

ducts 79:2,4

84:4

due 137:18

169:11

184:17 197:5

203:7

Duly 195:8

dump 133:17

dumping

245:1

during 8:6

23:3 46:22

duty 237:19

E

E 4:1,1 117:7,7

228:15

e-mail 30:5

46:15

e-mailed 30:2

46:7

e-tran 255:20

earlier 26:5

27:17 88:16

137:19 145:5

179:3 181:16

209:9 210:12

210:18 219:2

236:22

early 37:22

184:22

186:15,21

188:4

East 165:22

166:3

easy 10:19,20

82:14 218:18

220:3,4

echoing 22:12

economic 41:5

economically

261:6,20

economics

198:22

economized

166:19 174:3

174:9,10,11

174:14

economizer

144:4 166:15

166:21 167:9

167:11,21

169:11,13,17

169:20

171:17 172:7

173:3,6,7

177:19 178:3

209:18

economizers

143:21 144:1

164:18

169:19 170:3

170:15 171:7

171:12,22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

172:5 174:21

193:18

Ed 265:10

edification

248:3

EDWARD 2:3

EER 51:19

54:15 55:10

61:8 64:2

66:2 67:15

122:3 155:5

155:6,15,15

155:19,22

159:10

effect 27:3

35:8 81:17

83:14,15

122:16,17,21

122:22 123:1

123:3,13,14

142:12,22

157:2,11

169:12

170:15

175:15

effective 18:20

18:21

effects 84:5

efficiencies

262:2,13,19

263:9

efficiency 5:7

12:7,16

15:13 16:7,9

21:12 22:4

24:1 26:15

26:20 27:12

27:16,18,21

27:22 28:2

35:9 43:6,10

44:7,8 51:1

51:13 56:6

58:21 60:15

69:12 86:7,8

86:17 89:12

89:20,21

91:4,5,7,15

91:17,18,20

92:13 95:1

97:7 98:12

102:7 103:10

103:14,18

104:15

107:19

111:18

112:17

114:19 122:7

122:22

128:17,17,22

131:7,11

134:1 156:7

156:8 157:6

158:4 162:3

164:8 169:1

181:2,8

199:4,16

200:4,16,21

201:11

202:22 203:2

208:5,9

215:4,18

218:11

223:21

224:13,15

230:7 254:21

258:2 261:15

262:17

efficient 62:22

63:5 69:2

80:3 81:10

144:4 170:10

170:14 203:7

203:8 229:1

effort 179:20

efforts 186:12

eight 253:21

255:18

eight- 254:18

Eileen 2:2 4:3

30:17 50:5

100:12

117:14 119:8

226:16

either 28:15

51:20 82:2

157:6 182:15

208:20

216:21

225:10

232:21 251:8

EL 18:12,13

68:4 80:1

90:19,19

108:7 115:11

136:3 148:19

157:9 164:5

164:11 168:4

168:20

207:15 212:5

213:13 216:1

218:21

262:13,13,15

262:17

263:16

EL-0 31:8

32:20 99:16

229:13

258:14

EL-1 33:11,22

52:7,11 91:2

91:11,14

96:2 114:12

144:17 171:2

211:11 216:2

221:4 228:1

228:2 230:10

263:19,20

264:9

EL-2 33:9,13

55:8,16

90:21 91:12

94:17,20

95:10,14

96:1 190:14

190:15 228:8

263:8,20

264:10

EL-2.5 67:14

112:15 153:5

190:7 228:9

259:22 260:3

EL-3 67:20

91:11,14

95:7 106:19

145:10,12

146:3 147:8

148:1,4

190:8 200:5

201:14 216:5

221:13

235:17,17

241:9 242:8

243:1 259:22

EL-3.5 43:11

153:5

EL-4 43:12

69:7 95:13

95:14 106:22

243:3,6

244:1 261:3

261:7,10

EL-5 43:12

69:14 80:6

92:20,20

96:5 98:20

106:14 211:6

211:15

214:20 216:6

221:3,6

227:21

228:20 229:8

229:12

230:11

240:15

243:10 244:3

246:20

261:11

elasticity

252:9

elbow 81:9,10

81:10,12

electric 5:1

54:21 151:4

159:8

electrical

210:6,16

electricity

139:20 140:7

elevation

24:20

elevations

24:18

eliminated

141:18,20

239:15

ELs 69:20 95:4

95:16 109:13

157:12

172:10

259:10

else 42:4

63:15 96:9

180:8 195:16

195:17 212:4

226:7 242:12

259:8

emergency

254:17

Emerson 5:15

emphasize

247:21

employed

266:9,11

employee

266:10

employees

254:10

enclosed

116:5,12

end 28:17 99:7
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

100:20

117:16

141:13 149:9

149:16 160:8

181:10 187:1

192:9 195:20

198:18

224:10 252:1

252:2

energy 1:11

5:7 14:7,7

15:18 26:11

26:13 27:6

29:3,4 36:17

37:9 39:19

43:5,9 56:17

56:21 57:3

63:2,7 68:2

69:22 72:2

75:1 100:17

129:22

130:11

131:18,21

132:1 133:7

135:7,20

141:1 142:12

143:1,13

144:11 145:7

145:11

147:13

153:13,14,15

154:8,14

155:9,16,21

156:3 157:5

158:2,4,16

160:16

163:22 164:7

164:13,15

165:4 168:8

168:9,11,18

169:15 170:1

170:17,22

171:3,8,11

172:1,8,11

175:13,16

176:13 177:4

181:2 189:21

198:21

199:10 259:4

259:11

engineer 25:8

engineering

11:4,17 13:2

41:18 42:21

75:1 141:2

142:17

153:12,13

189:22

190:18 199:9

200:10

201:17

261:16

engineers

83:2,4

England

165:22

enlarger 81:2

enlargers

80:22

enlisted

207:10

enough 22:9

49:17 61:14

61:15,15

94:1 112:7

132:17 149:5

149:7 150:11

186:1 189:5

236:10,10

entered

123:11

entire 90:7,7,7

entrance

234:12

EPCA 9:3,6,9

equal 98:6

equate 93:18

equipment

33:13 38:8

40:4 41:4

54:16 62:22

65:7 88:14

89:10 102:5

102:9,15

104:1 106:16

108:1 131:14

133:12,18

134:10 160:4

171:9 190:1

190:7,21

191:16

197:11,16

199:3,8,12

200:9 201:8

201:16,18,20

202:5,16,20

202:21

203:19,21,21

204:19,21

205:3 215:4

215:9 238:10

238:12,19

239:16

240:15

241:13,18,21

245:6,8,21

246:15,17,21

248:19 249:6

252:3 258:5

258:14 263:4

equipment's

247:13,19

equipments

133:21

equivalent

69:8

Eric 2:5 5:16

8:18 10:2,12

120:20

123:15 185:5

error 34:11

75:18 151:19

173:1,3,5

236:8

escort 119:5

ESP 145:13

146:3 157:2

157:4,12

especially

35:21 129:21

ESPs 157:9

essentially

18:20 45:7

51:8 62:19

62:20 80:21

92:5 97:8,19

110:5 133:13

137:22

141:17

144:20

151:15

163:21

165:15 169:8

169:16

175:15

176:22

250:20

estimate 84:16

142:8 180:2

197:7 224:19

estimated

84:17 214:5

estimates

135:4

estimator

232:1

et 144:18,18

166:3 209:11

evaluate

111:13

evaporative

159:19

evaporator

57:22

evening 233:4

eventually

53:21 126:19

ever 94:1

115:11

169:22,22

262:10

every 114:12

128:22 150:4

169:20

179:16 200:1

206:11

253:21

255:18 263:4

263:16

everybody

14:3 50:10

62:16 85:18

101:7 117:9

187:7,20

220:15

everyone 8:5

10:21 22:10

74:18 195:16

195:17 235:7

264:18

everything

62:11 63:15

93:16 121:14

151:17 152:1

152:19 160:8

191:14

193:21 200:5

206:10

223:21 225:8

everywhere

227:13

242:12

evidence

94:19 160:18

evoked 214:7

ex 185:5

exact 40:17

258:7

exactly 24:9

40:20 52:4
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

82:17 111:6

220:13

example 24:15

52:13 81:10

83:9 95:7

102:20 104:3

124:9 126:22

145:4 156:22

156:22 171:1

224:3,5

240:15 241:9

259:10

263:18

examples

61:15 124:21

125:6,10,22

126:5

exceed 202:22

exceeding

18:21

excellent 82:9

except 22:3

63:16 65:22

exception

29:11 103:7

200:13 263:8

exchanger

11:20 12:3

19:2 21:16

23:3,7 25:13

26:17 27:5,7

114:15,18

exchangers

47:16,17

excludes

204:16

exclusion

182:16

Excuse 54:13

exercise 30:13

185:8

exist 57:19

existing 75:11

76:4 83:12

84:15 85:6

89:22 90:3

exists 88:11

expect 63:17

72:19,21

79:10 142:5

168:12

176:17 221:5

expected

105:5 176:19

178:16 253:6

expecting

172:14

expensive

22:1,9 94:3

211:20 212:4

experience

82:12,13

202:9

expert 20:21

222:20

expertise

20:19

explain 32:2

56:3,11

191:4 200:17

224:7

explained

201:4

explaining

111:8

explains 92:13

explanation

153:11

explicit 263:18

explicitly

214:13

expose 109:4

exposure 67:6

67:7,11

extended

196:5

extends

251:18

extensive

249:10

253:13

extent 42:13

44:22 62:3

84:7 147:1

exterior 144:5

164:16

external 57:10

57:12 58:4

59:6 161:6

219:10,17

extra 128:15

214:21

extrapolating

227:8

extreme

147:22

extremely

141:14,22

166:20

eye 70:7

F

F 117:7

face 39:5

faces 234:12

facilitators 4:4

facing 234:16

fact 13:11

28:22 29:7

37:8 46:14

83:19 122:12

153:12

158:20 179:2

222:22

239:14 259:4

259:9

factor 140:19

163:19 175:1

175:14,18

178:21

180:14,19

182:16

207:10,16

209:14 210:1

factors 144:7

177:5 179:2

fails 131:15

failure 173:12

251:4

fair 24:12

26:10 60:16

214:14

246:12 256:3

fairly 100:18

falls 256:16

familiar 125:5

165:21

fan 27:3,5

47:16 48:5

52:14,16

55:15,22

56:7,14,15

56:20 57:1,2

58:13 61:7,8

62:2 63:18

68:2,10 74:2

74:5 81:13

142:1,1,16

142:19,20

145:7 154:15

155:7,8

156:7,9,18

157:4,6,16

157:17 158:4

158:4 161:12

163:22 164:7

165:16,18

167:22

170:20 171:3

172:17

188:14 189:3

189:4 257:5

fans 47:17

81:3 159:22

far 8:15 67:22

72:17 85:11

88:17 90:12

90:16 95:17

96:21 98:5

131:21 243:7

244:3

farthest 234:7

fashion 45:4

favor 178:8

181:8 220:16

features

134:10,13

feed 88:10

feedback

11:19 12:4

13:17 20:4

45:1 113:21

239:6

feel 47:5 83:6

211:21

feeling 82:4

89:4 181:7

feels 208:11

field 20:19

68:21 83:22

figure 41:12

47:4 82:14

217:14

224:22

257:21

figured 228:13

figures 70:14

226:17

file 50:16

194:1

files 164:22

filter 112:22

filters 161:14

162:3

final 122:15,20

138:15 143:2

176:10

finally 168:14

201:15

financially
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

19

266:12

find 9:2 87:10

151:13

160:18

234:20

fine 59:1

138:12 167:6

231:3 233:6

finish 136:6

finished

127:15

finishing

117:2

fired 38:7,7,7

first 8:9 13:2

37:16 73:15

100:9 102:2

121:22 123:3

123:22 125:9

125:21 128:9

144:22

151:16

183:17,21

187:12

228:10,13

240:18 253:4

258:4

fit 78:5 81:14

88:15 113:5

113:12,16,20

115:10

181:19

fitting 80:21

81:8

fittings 81:3

82:7

five 37:5 252:1

fix 232:3,6,15

233:7

fixed 126:19

fixed-speed

155:7,20

flag 234:22

flaking 140:16

flat 116:4

flatbed 113:17

flatbeds

115:21,22

116:12,19

flexibility 9:2

110:7 124:8

flexible 9:22

flip 260:17

floor 117:18

118:20,21

265:9

floundering

235:3

flow 42:13

82:1 110:11

110:12

146:20 189:5

197:21

238:20,22

241:4,6,22

242:3 243:3

243:9,13

244:4

fluorescent

256:9

FMCS 5:19

focus 133:11

135:12,14

190:3

focused

163:11 230:5

folks 14:12,13

14:14 20:2

40:4 128:7

131:13

189:22

260:12

follow 36:2

97:1 128:20

146:11 148:7

follow-up

17:16 25:11

135:18

following

23:20 113:8

145:9 265:13

food 41:11

footage 95:9

173:19

force 60:19

194:17

forced 143:4

forecast

139:17

foregoing

266:4,7

forget 70:19

211:3

forgot 136:3

form 23:19

112:21

formally 265:4

Forrestal 1:12

forth 46:11,13

46:18 61:5

142:15

forward 36:11

36:15 48:9

179:9 237:22

found 130:4

204:8 226:8

238:17 242:2

256:19

four 37:6,7

51:16,17

89:20 94:22

97:20,21

98:6 110:16

121:19,20

124:2 176:7

176:7,8

229:17

four-quarter

78:21

four-week

254:16

fourth 126:4

fraction 13:17

15:16 172:4

173:4 235:19

235:22

fractionalized

134:19

frame 36:19

framed 37:15

framework

127:20 186:2

frankly 150:16

185:22 186:6

free 224:19

FREEMAN 2:6

6:2,6,8 183:7

183:10

frequency

229:9

frequently

40:9

fresh 182:4

friends 214:15

front 179:12

234:22

fudge 178:20

179:2,7

fuel 29:3

full 4:6 7:12,20

29:3 68:7,11

110:11,14,16

136:7 155:5

156:4 251:18

full-load 56:7

fully 224:22

function

164:10

168:20 191:7

196:17 203:5

206:14

funded 238:8

furnace 11:3

22:4 23:9

31:4 41:21

257:5,9

furnaces 8:9

22:22 28:15

29:17 34:1

38:6 128:5,7

135:19 256:9

257:2

further 41:16

55:8 150:3

164:11,12

178:18

203:11 207:2

238:3 266:10

furthest 234:8

future 38:19

39:3 133:20

154:10

179:11,11

185:16 202:1

249:9

G

G 4:1

gadgets 218:9

218:12

gain 131:11

230:17

game 191:20

gap 91:10

98:20 222:6

gaps 236:10

gas 38:7 41:6

54:21 55:3

71:21,22

139:19,22

151:3 159:7

210:7,16

gas-fired 13:3

33:22

gather 184:14

gathers

183:16

gauge 26:9

gave 140:19

191:1 205:13
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

205:14 220:8

223:9,10

224:5

general 5:16

64:11 104:12

140:10 167:4

170:12 181:6

256:9

generalized

165:8

generally

68:10

get-away

118:16

getting 9:19

39:19 54:8

57:4 70:8

71:16 78:1

121:5 132:21

142:7 171:13

174:6 191:19

192:9 193:7

196:10,21

199:9 222:15

226:11

244:22

250:12

give 9:5,11

58:16 60:19

70:16 124:9

194:10,14

196:1 209:5

223:14,18

252:8 257:12

257:13

given 21:9,12

90:18 98:11

143:11

153:17 168:4

184:11

185:22 208:2

209:3 224:18

257:1

gives 142:7,8

149:8 185:10

giving 20:15

164:12

220:17

223:17

go 4:7 8:1,3,8

9:17 10:15

11:2,2,16

14:18 17:3

30:7 31:6

33:17,20

50:10 52:16

60:21 62:11

67:17 69:6

69:11 74:20

76:14 82:2

86:7,8 87:8

87:10 88:17

91:14,22

92:1 94:4

97:2 99:8,10

100:22 101:3

101:4 104:15

115:18 118:5

119:9 121:9

121:19

127:20

129:15 135:7

135:9 136:1

144:9 151:5

152:8 153:4

154:22 157:7

158:4 164:5

164:21

165:17

167:19

168:15

174:19

178:19

181:10 188:3

189:16

204:14

205:18

207:18

208:14

215:18

218:12

219:12,13

240:11

242:11,11

244:14,17

259:22 260:7

goal 63:11

goes 21:12

32:15 67:21

74:7 90:17

91:11 96:3

99:5 103:14

103:18

118:13

168:21

171:12

183:17 193:5

210:10

213:21

216:16,19

241:4 254:2

going 8:1,3,8

8:11 9:1

10:19 11:2,2

13:12,13

14:3,3 15:11

22:18,19

30:1 34:8

40:12 43:22

47:8 50:4,5

51:7 53:5,8

53:18 54:1,3

56:16,17,21

59:3,12 60:4

63:18 64:5

65:22 66:17

66:18,19

72:1 74:13

77:9,11,20

77:21 78:1,4

80:3 82:15

83:15 86:6,9

87:2,18

88:16,22

93:20 94:4,4

94:17 95:14

104:14

106:20

107:13

108:21 109:3

116:10

117:15

118:14

119:22 121:9

122:16

128:16 129:5

130:3,13

135:1,6,9

136:17

137:20,22

138:6,11

140:7,13,22

142:15 143:4

147:19 148:3

148:3 149:12

149:21 150:1

150:1,22

153:8,14,15

154:3 155:2

155:8,13

157:6,10,12

157:17

162:19 165:5

172:10,16

176:2 179:2

188:1 189:16

193:22 194:4

194:11

195:11

198:16,19

206:10,12

208:15,18,20

210:9 211:8

212:14 216:3

216:14,20

218:6,19,20

221:15

223:18 225:7

225:14,20,22

229:6,15,16

230:1,15,16

230:22

232:15

233:18

238:21

240:16 241:3

244:4,12

245:12 247:9

247:18 248:9

249:17

251:10,19

253:2,5

257:22 258:1

264:3 265:4

265:6

gone 29:4

94:21 124:19

192:2 261:5

good 4:3 10:21

14:2 39:1

82:9 117:13

149:5,7,15

153:19

164:12 187:8

188:3 189:6

203:5 204:9

206:6 209:6

211:21 221:9

223:11

236:10 242:2

242:3,4

245:16 262:9

265:2

Goodman 5:11

40:13 63:22

64:17 78:13

79:11 158:12

178:13

Google 84:21

got 4:20 7:11
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

11:19 12:4

13:17 20:19

34:22 36:1

53:3,6 55:6

63:16 66:7

66:12 76:20

86:12 104:4

115:13

119:10

138:20

140:15

150:15

152:15

155:12 168:8

173:15 176:1

188:15,18

204:7 206:3

213:22 220:6

229:7 231:8

232:2 233:11

238:22 242:3

243:3,7

244:17

250:10 252:1

253:4 264:14

264:18

Gotcha 246:13

gotten 20:4

120:11

government

67:2

grade 19:6,14

19:16 20:5

20:11 21:12

grades 13:13

21:6

Grail 252:13

graphs 85:14

grappling 9:1

great 177:9

181:14

229:12 244:6

greater 96:5

221:13

259:11,12

greatly 249:20

green 14:20

Greenheck

3:21 6:19

greg 2:7 7:16

11:5 14:1

18:16 20:12

30:22 31:20

121:19

127:22

128:21

147:10

160:22 163:6

167:16

187:10 188:6

189:15

195:18 196:4

230:20 235:8

246:19

252:11

257:12

259:14

263:13

grew 123:5

ground 73:8

136:2,15

153:16,19

group 1:2 5:22

45:3,15 48:8

51:8 53:3

60:20 72:6

74:14 137:7

140:9 182:14

193:2 196:22

204:14

208:11

220:10

234:19

248:22

265:13

grouped

103:17

105:15

grouping

102:11

103:12,13,14

grow 95:2 97:7

growing

103:15

grows 98:15

growth 95:5

99:5

guarantee

38:19

guess 9:4 11:1

11:6 14:5

22:19 36:2

44:22 45:20

47:21 48:16

48:16 54:5

56:12 59:4

66:9 75:6

95:9 99:13

104:19 105:4

106:12 107:8

107:10

114:10

119:21

120:21 127:1

138:19 149:2

152:5 170:8

172:13

178:14

183:14

191:20 192:1

193:11 194:5

196:20 198:3

203:13 207:1

228:12

229:19

238:15

240:18 241:1

242:5 264:22

guide 39:1,3

gun 185:21

guy 8:12

208:16 223:9

229:16

guys 11:13

20:15 146:22

147:2 188:19

189:2 192:5

196:2 197:21

205:9 217:22

218:12

219:22 223:7

guys' 219:18

H

half 7:22 17:10

37:6 43:3,16

44:15 48:1

48:20 49:6

51:10 55:9

64:2 89:15

89:16,17,18

92:2,3 94:16

95:6,9,12

96:9,10 97:4

97:5,6,6 99:6

102:20,22

103:5,16

111:11,15

115:7 116:4

116:4,8,15

124:16 143:6

144:12 145:1

145:18 146:2

150:19 153:4

156:21 163:1

163:9,14,14

163:16,18

165:12

170:13

190:11

192:18

199:13

201:19

202:13

203:15 204:2

208:2 211:5

211:10,14,15

211:15,21,22

212:5,22

213:1,2,5,12

214:12,20

216:1,15

221:1 225:10

227:18

228:10,18,20

229:2,13

235:16

247:11,17

252:5,7,17

257:7 259:2

260:3,8

261:21 263:8

half-hour 62:2

halfs 92:1

hallway

121:14

hammer 172:6

hand 51:7 61:6

252:20

hand-outs

44:19 45:6

handed 39:11

45:10

handing 45:14

handler

162:20

handlers

53:19

handling

214:2,3

handout 151:6

151:9 182:17

201:13

handouts

14:22

happen 22:20

56:13 72:21

135:3 147:18

147:19 185:6

186:22 203:6
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

252:8

happened

145:14

172:17

happening

23:22 39:21

57:14 72:20

171:6 254:4

255:18

happens 28:1

91:12 168:8

175:9 260:12

happier

220:15

happy 178:2

205:12,22

206:4 208:12

220:12,20

hard 4:12 7:22

36:8 58:5

59:21 93:10

116:6 148:4

164:5

harder 69:15

hardly 198:19

Harvey 2:20

5:10 16:16

16:17 25:10

37:12 114:9

115:19

140:14

159:13

178:10 196:3

197:4 202:7

212:12,15

224:17

233:21,22

235:6 249:7

249:7,8,19

252:14

has 10:7 15:14

17:7 18:13

20:19 27:4

27:15 29:7

30:21 31:3

31:13 33:9

37:21 45:6

47:9,11 48:8

57:22 59:5

61:19 62:12

66:7 69:5

70:18 74:11

86:18 91:3

91:16 92:2

93:12 95:22

109:15

111:19

122:19

123:15,21

124:8,19

125:12,22

131:3 140:15

144:16

145:22

158:19

167:21

170:20

175:14

180:21 182:1

182:22 183:2

183:3 203:6

224:4 229:8

237:21 238:6

250:17 259:9

263:5

hasn't 195:15

195:17

hate 218:17

haven't 114:12

121:11

144:10

161:21 165:8

having 14:19

38:16 81:22

98:9 206:17

232:11

243:15

hazarded

84:15

head 23:3

25:13 39:20

165:15

headaches

218:20

hear 9:6 22:10

30:22 34:13

131:9 136:18

208:7 239:6

240:19 251:8

heard 27:2

37:22 59:17

107:18

146:13

161:22

180:13

195:18

207:20

213:20 223:6

248:21,21

hearing 11:12

41:16 127:17

251:15

heat 11:20

12:3 19:2

21:16 23:7

26:17 27:5,7

47:15,17

54:21,21

114:15,18

132:7,18

165:4,14,16

175:16 257:4

heating 132:13

133:16 136:3

141:19,20,21

166:13

heavier 215:20

221:4 229:1

heavily 19:5

heavy 215:10

heck 255:11

255:12

height 222:21

225:17

held 30:8 51:5

Hello 21:14

30:17

help 23:5

36:19 56:3

70:9 121:8

126:7 214:15

217:17

226:16

263:14

helped 39:15

244:20

helpful 105:7

116:17 121:4

126:5,8

167:7

helps 193:9

her 4:12 183:5

here 6:5 7:7,11

9:21 11:1,7

13:2,19 14:5

15:11 22:20

23:22 28:12

28:14 30:17

31:2 34:8,12

36:14 38:17

39:16 42:21

43:4 46:16

52:6 53:3

54:16 55:9

55:20 63:3

65:1 67:13

69:14 72:13

73:15 74:21

75:8 77:1

87:16 90:4

92:1,12,13

92:15 93:9

93:12 95:6

95:16,20,20

97:15,20

99:4 112:8

112:13 113:1

118:4 121:14

127:4 128:13

128:16

130:12 139:9

144:2 147:7

149:4,9,16

149:18 150:5

150:20

153:13 154:9

155:13 156:8

163:22 167:2

168:2,14

171:6 173:21

175:8 176:11

176:13 178:5

179:3,10

180:3 181:18

190:6 195:22

200:19,22

201:13,15

203:11,22

205:2 206:3

221:21 224:4

230:17

235:13,13

238:15

240:13

246:14

247:12,18

257:22 258:2

259:2,16

261:2,14,19

263:2,19

264:21

Here's 95:6

224:3 232:16

hereby 266:4

Hey 220:10

hi 11:8 31:2

50:4,10,17

111:9 117:11

117:12

160:22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

high 10:15

73:21 85:13

94:1 102:14

103:2 139:6

215:4 248:6

255:5

high-end

35:21

higher 19:1,16

21:12 24:17

24:19,20

26:19 33:15

55:13 56:6,8

56:15 57:10

57:12 58:4

59:4,6 63:17

64:2 66:2,10

67:7,15 74:7

81:20 84:18

86:17 90:22

91:5,6 92:18

92:21 95:11

97:7 98:9

107:7 110:13

112:19

114:19

155:14,15,15

155:19,22

157:11,12

171:1,16

172:15 181:2

181:8 205:2

207:15

218:12

228:15

251:22 252:2

263:9

highest 73:18

98:17 100:14

102:7 162:3

202:22 212:5

highly 106:6

hill 71:21,22

historical

122:12

192:22

196:15

history 42:1

hit 56:18

hmm 217:12

HOFF 7:10

Hoffman 2:2

4:3,4 7:7,19

8:2 16:16

22:7,10 30:9

30:16,17

31:16 49:22

50:4,6,10

64:16,18

72:5,10

99:11 100:12

100:12,20

101:20

116:20,22

117:9,12,14

118:1,14,21

119:11,15,18

120:5,14

122:13

123:15,18

124:1 127:6

127:9,12,17

127:22 128:3

136:6,10,12

140:20 182:9

182:20 183:2

183:6,11

187:9,15,20

188:5,10

189:9,14

195:8 220:16

226:16,16,21

227:1,5

232:16 233:5

233:8,11,16

233:19 234:3

234:10,19

235:5 239:18

240:2,5,9

249:7 256:20

264:20 265:4

hold 34:7,17

102:10

137:12 191:3

Holy 252:13

home 123:7,8

124:12 172:6

188:4

honest 226:11

Hootman 2:15

4:21,21 15:4

18:12 19:12

24:6,9 26:22

39:12,12

40:11 41:8

42:16 46:12

46:16 48:18

53:9,9 54:11

58:9 65:4,17

66:21,22

67:11 69:13

75:19 79:14

79:17,17

80:7 85:8,8

85:22 87:4

87:14 93:13

96:8 108:14

108:20 109:2

113:7,13

115:5,10,16

115:18 116:2

118:7,9

130:15 132:5

132:9,12,17

134:15

136:20 138:4

138:9 139:8

139:22 140:3

149:6 150:6

162:12,15,18

179:8,8

182:18 192:3

192:7 194:8

195:4,9

212:14

215:12 217:7

230:3 234:14

239:22

248:13,17

249:14,15

250:17

252:11

253:11 255:6

255:9 262:6

264:1,11,14

hope 9:21

49:19 117:13

121:15

195:19

hoped 119:20

hopefully

11:18 109:14

121:13 136:4

257:21

hoping 197:1

248:22 258:9

horizontal

168:9

horse 48:19

hot 168:10

hotel 234:17

234:17

hotter 71:16

hour 7:22 37:7

74:16,17

142:3 164:22

229:19

hourly 164:21

167:19

hours 37:6,8

39:16 41:5

56:18 118:14

142:9 157:16

157:17

159:21 168:9

168:10

180:13

182:16

229:16,17

house 4:6 37:5

housekeeping

141:7,10

143:16

however 13:11

43:13 82:18

110:10 175:4

HRI 4:17

Huang 6:18

huge 59:12

135:7 231:20

233:10 253:9

humming

11:14

Hunt 2:16 5:2

5:2 11:8,8

50:17,17

51:4 54:13

54:13,19

55:1,5 67:17

70:15 71:3,6

71:10 87:13

151:3,3,8,12

152:3 159:7

159:7 177:1

177:1,11,13

179:5,5

182:13 183:5

233:13,13,18

239:11,11

240:4 254:19

254:19

261:22 262:9

262:15

Hurst 2:19 7:9

7:10

HVAC 94:1

I

I'd 30:2 34:12

72:17 138:7
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

153:22

214:18

217:20 231:3

I'll 11:4 15:12

19:22 27:1

31:14 34:6

40:22 41:17

41:18 42:20

62:15,16

63:1 119:6

125:7 128:20

135:19

143:18 175:2

176:8 177:12

190:21 191:3

191:8,8

195:6 200:17

218:22

220:12

223:14

234:21

237:22

i.e 90:1

idea 108:12

175:8 176:4

177:10 199:8

232:2

ideal 81:4

183:22

ideas 31:15

232:18

identified

43:15

identify 4:10

4:13 30:19

identifying

154:11

IEER 45:9

51:19,22

52:3,8,12

58:16 62:17

63:12,21

65:9,14 66:4

66:8,10 67:4

67:22 70:4,5

71:1 73:5

102:15

103:14

109:22 145:6

153:8 154:15

156:12,17

164:12

IEERs 45:8

64:8 103:2

IFMA 249:10

imagine 71:8

imminent

256:2

impact 15:17

15:20 36:15

41:5 120:6

129:22

131:12

143:14

147:20,22

150:15 168:5

171:2 176:18

182:15

198:19 263:5

impacts

175:13

189:22

implemented

12:17 146:18

191:11

implications

150:18

imply 245:22

important 4:5

9:20 88:9

139:16 150:9

181:13

184:14

238:15

248:15 262:9

impossible

86:11

impression

85:6

improve

249:20

improvements

164:9

improves

158:5

in-depth

190:22

inaudible

21:18,20,21

21:22 22:5,8

23:17,19

26:20,21

147:22

155:12

186:13 192:9

209:19

219:18

224:16

233:10 264:8

incentivize

254:10,10

inch 78:21

161:14 162:1

162:16,18

188:17,19

inches 75:15

161:3,4

incidents

125:5

include 12:8

85:20 93:8

154:14

161:12 177:7

202:5 203:19

204:20 205:1

209:11,17

221:19

224:12

included 76:16

126:14 222:3

includes 45:19

51:8 100:9

203:16

including

31:22 123:7

124:12

145:12 156:8

182:5 204:18

205:2 222:5

256:8

inconsistency

227:19 229:4

incorrect

130:5 151:6

increase 12:1

26:16,19

27:4,5 29:6

33:10 36:17

70:6 91:2

105:22 106:1

113:3,18

129:4 130:1

130:2 131:10

140:11 143:1

157:4,6

193:5 207:21

207:22

213:20

218:10

221:12

increased 12:2

17:7,12

27:20 29:8

32:1 161:6

increases

73:19 74:6

90:21 209:3

increasing

99:1 114:15

114:17 134:1

202:15 203:4

increment

34:14 129:14

134:1 146:3

146:4

incremental

32:20,22

112:2,6,19

increments

143:10

incurring

14:15,16

97:12

indeed 63:6

124:18 221:4

260:21

Independence

1:14

index 165:20

244:21

indicate 212:2

indicated

75:14 78:18

indicates

160:20

indicating

47:12 79:20

79:21

indication

109:6

indicator

196:8

indices 165:22

196:10

indirect

159:18

individual

19:21 82:5

individually

109:3 111:14

individuals

5:20

indoor 16:18

17:1 47:17

48:5 52:14

52:16 68:10

74:2

industry 38:12

75:6 97:22

98:1 104:13
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

217:9,10

inferring 197:5

infinitely 144:3

inflate 206:11

inflection

260:9,10,16

influences

15:16

inform 198:13

258:21

information

43:8 44:22

45:19 47:11

47:16,22

49:3,7,8

50:14 53:19

61:1,6 75:10

75:12 76:6

84:11,13

89:15 97:15

109:1,16

130:8 131:17

132:22 141:3

161:18

173:10

183:16,18,20

184:14

185:11 186:5

193:17

194:18 196:9

196:21

197:18

223:18

235:12,14

238:3 248:20

informative

168:15

ing 225:5

initial 46:6

105:7 123:1

initially 49:7

70:2

inlet-outlet

82:6

input 20:15,22

49:8 53:3

55:13 74:6

88:7 90:16

109:13 141:4

184:1 248:22

inputs 109:16

189:21

inquisitor

236:13

insight 197:2

insightful

186:14

install 203:16

203:20

204:10,13,17

209:10 213:2

214:5 216:2

229:1

installation

157:22 158:6

202:6,12,15

203:5,14

209:20

213:20

221:13

installations

21:10

installed 31:9

31:18 32:5

86:22 98:13

128:10,12

203:22 204:4

217:16 260:3

260:4

installing

160:4

instance 48:5

91:22 102:22

instances

76:11,13

instead 51:7

167:10

171:14

181:21 211:7

254:16

institute 150:2

integer 143:5

148:3

integrate 44:5

intensively

37:2

inter-cooling

159:19

interaction

185:3

interactions

184:5

interchange...

75:7

interest 47:3

100:13

178:17

interested

206:4 266:12

interesting

245:10

interests

212:13

intermediate

91:17,20

95:16

internal 38:1

58:1 60:6,7

161:16,20

162:10

215:14

internally

257:2

interpolating

69:18

interpolation

51:20

interrupting

212:15

into 4:9 9:9

13:1 28:16

30:20 31:16

33:4 34:22

36:15 37:3

41:13,22

42:10 44:6

44:13 76:21

87:20 90:17

92:7 93:17

93:20 95:21

103:21

112:22

113:12

122:16,21

123:11

133:17 135:2

136:1 138:15

143:4 161:1

182:15 187:2

196:11 197:3

199:9 202:1

202:17 224:8

230:9 240:16

241:21 246:1

253:12

256:19

introduce 6:14

23:17 145:10

introducing

173:2

intuition 36:5

intuitively

86:10 139:18

investment

38:18

Investor 5:3

involved 33:4

43:7 50:13

214:11 253:9

IOUs 159:8

177:2 239:12

irregular 225:4

isn't 52:4

81:18 87:17

94:4 135:9

197:19

isolate 84:5

issue 16:2

42:2,12

61:21 73:11

80:1 142:14

143:5 144:2

144:6 145:5

154:8,11

172:7 175:1

175:3 178:6

179:4 182:12

190:19 196:4

207:9 228:22

231:20

260:20

issued 108:17

122:16,20

123:4

issues 10:13

10:13 42:4

90:4 114:6

141:10

143:17 177:7

219:11

237:15

it'd 62:10

219:13

item 82:5 84:3

125:2

iteration 190:4

J

Jakobs 6:5,5,6

6:7 21:14,15

22:8,12

23:15 26:18

183:9 186:9

186:9

James 7:3

75:2 100:19

111:8,9

113:7 114:9

115:5 216:15

217:8
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

James's 213:8

January

122:17

Jeff 238:5

245:19

Jeremiah 2:6

6:11

Jill 2:15 4:21

26:22 39:12

53:9 66:22

79:17 85:8

86:12 93:13

94:8 115:19

132:2 134:15

179:8 249:14

249:18

253:11 264:1

Jill's 182:2

Jim 3:11 5:22

6:8 46:15

job 62:12

116:10

John 2:4,19

5:18 7:9,10

7:16,16 9:15

10:5 16:1

29:19 36:18

37:13 39:15

41:2,20 42:7

88:12 117:20

119:3 160:9

179:15

181:14 184:8

185:13

218:22 232:6

248:4

John's 39:14

149:21

joint 123:5

124:10

joke 9:2,3

jot 152:10

261:10

jump 15:21,22

86:9 92:3,20

103:10 149:9

jumping 13:1

104:15

149:15

250:19

jury 255:19

K

Karen 3:12

5:22 6:7,8

Katie 2:9 6:20

135:19

140:21

146:12 152:7

164:3 187:10

187:12

196:11

198:15

KCC 85:10

keep 57:18

63:10 64:12

93:4 101:2

149:14,20

150:1,19

151:1 228:1

228:9,14

232:6 244:20

keeps 93:2

kept 125:17

key 246:14

kick 244:14

kind 8:4 21:3

36:4 37:11

41:12,12

61:11,12

69:7 70:17

71:20 72:17

72:20 73:1

75:7 80:4,19

82:2 89:9

92:12 96:12

96:19 99:7

106:12 108:8

108:9 116:10

116:16 133:8

136:2 137:11

138:19 141:7

141:8,13

142:6 143:3

143:10

151:18

165:13

166:14 167:8

170:4 172:2

172:6 177:16

186:10

193:21

195:13 213:2

215:2 231:18

247:1 251:22

254:12

kinds 193:8

255:14

KIRKLAND

266:3,17

knew 89:3

know 8:11 9:5

11:19 14:21

17:9 18:3

21:4,7,19

22:2,13

23:10 29:9

29:19,22,22

31:10 34:10

35:22 39:17

40:2,20

44:21 45:18

46:14,17

48:9,21 53:7

53:20 56:11

56:21 57:6

60:8,22 61:8

61:17,22

62:6,16

63:19 64:1,5

66:14 69:22

72:16 73:8

73:10,14

74:2,2 79:5

81:22 82:17

83:4,4 87:22

88:16 92:22

93:6 94:19

95:16 96:4

97:2 98:3

104:1,7

105:15 106:8

106:19,22

107:18,18

108:8,19

110:19 112:9

114:2,4

120:21 121:7

121:11

123:20 124:5

125:7 132:2

133:6 134:1

134:4 135:1

135:4,6,13

136:4,8

137:5,15,19

137:20 140:8

140:10 141:2

141:11

143:15 147:7

148:12,21

149:4,8,17

150:7,21

151:2 153:16

153:21

154:10,13

158:10

160:12 161:5

161:19

166:14,16

168:4 169:9

169:9 171:22

172:5 173:1

173:6,9,12

174:1,19

175:6 177:19

179:16 180:1

180:7,11

181:18 182:3

182:7 184:16

185:4 187:4

188:17

192:10,11

194:5,7

195:14 197:2

197:10

198:18 203:4

203:9,10

205:19,20

207:4,22

210:21 211:3

211:18

215:22

217:20

218:21 220:7

222:7,8,14

222:18 224:4

224:16

225:15,17

226:7,7

227:8 230:8

230:16,19

232:4 240:18

244:8 245:20

250:11 254:7

254:17 255:2

255:13,15

256:7,17

259:7 260:9

260:19

264:18 265:1

knowing 108:6

knowledge

51:9

knows 123:17

KWH 151:10

153:6,9,9

L

L'Enfant
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

117:17

118:19 234:1

265:8

L-3 261:1

labor 203:16

203:20 214:5

laboratories

131:20 132:6

132:7,14,18

Labs 6:21

Lacking 218:1

ladder 69:12

lamps 256:9

lands 188:22

landscape

78:17 79:13

80:5 87:5

laptop 213:6

large 33:14

37:18 75:16

75:17,19

89:17 90:8

90:11 99:3,4

102:9 105:1

105:13,15

107:20 115:4

168:5 235:13

258:6

larger 27:6

60:5 91:5

99:3 102:8

103:8,18

104:5,14

107:21 129:7

131:5,5

146:9 210:5

largest 85:9

94:5 96:22

102:15

last 8:4,7

11:19 12:5

12:20 17:3

17:20,20

18:1,5,9,11

18:15 19:3

20:7 23:1

27:13 28:21

31:9,10,19

32:6 35:16

43:2 47:10

54:1 62:15

80:9 89:14

106:12

111:12,16,22

112:9 113:10

120:22 125:2

125:11

128:11

129:21 130:8

130:13,15

141:11 143:3

143:20

144:21 150:4

151:9,22

153:11 154:5

159:14

160:13

164:14

173:17 190:2

190:17 191:5

191:14 192:9

192:10,17

195:20

198:12 199:6

199:7 200:12

200:14

201:19,22

202:13

203:10

214:18

235:12 238:2

243:5,20,22

247:11,15,22

248:20 251:2

256:5 258:5

259:6,16,18

261:6

late 191:19

236:19

later 12:18

15:13 32:17

57:1 75:3

87:21 97:17

149:21

190:21

200:18 251:9

latest 15:15,19

16:12 198:6

Laughter 39:9

49:12 89:3

109:10

252:10

launching

44:13

law 185:10

Lawrence 6:20

71:13

LBNL 6:22

43:8 50:14

69:21 90:6

177:6 182:14

198:15

219:12

231:22

LBNL's 180:12

LC 129:20

LCC 12:17

14:4,4,8

18:18 43:9

146:19,21

147:4,10

lead 124:6,15

124:17 125:1

leading 7:17

85:15

leads 124:8

learn 182:6

learned 182:5

learning 182:8

least 88:16

109:6 110:12

133:16

156:20,21

187:1,8

193:6 198:7

225:10 236:2

238:16

252:22 254:4

255:6 259:19

263:5

leave 153:18

167:22 264:7

265:6

leaving 19:6

left 73:8 230:6

left- 39:10

legal 8:15 9:18

120:20

121:20

138:14

legislation

126:19,20

legislative

126:16

leisure 97:16

length 82:6

223:2

less 40:9

58:22 60:6

63:18 68:7

68:10 69:2

71:22 74:22

109:18

110:11

114:13

133:22 135:4

143:6 148:4

149:1 156:12

167:15 170:7

177:22 217:2

228:20,22

255:3

lesser 20:11

level 12:16

21:13 29:1,1

29:11 33:9

44:8 55:10

60:15 62:7

63:21 64:9

73:3 80:1

84:13 89:21

91:4,5,18

92:8,9,14

94:20 98:12

98:17 107:19

111:18

112:12

114:19

123:22

128:22 131:8

136:14 137:1

148:19 169:1

181:20 198:1

199:22

200:21 201:1

201:2,7,11

202:22 212:6

212:18 216:1

224:20

244:18

260:22

261:15 264:4

levels 12:7

28:22 29:10

33:15 43:7

43:10 44:7

51:2,13,22

52:10 60:18

66:2,4 70:4

86:14 89:13

91:7,15,18

91:20 92:2

95:1 96:21

97:7 98:15

102:15 108:7

110:1,9

112:7,17

115:11 121:6

122:18,22

124:3 137:18
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

138:7 181:2

181:9 199:16

200:4,16

207:15

218:11,21

228:2,3,15

254:9,11

261:5 262:3

262:14,15

Lewis 236:14

license 117:22

118:2

lieu 193:8

221:8

life 17:13

18:22 23:6

33:12 36:11

37:14 38:20

42:8 129:20

130:3 131:5

141:4 189:17

189:20 190:4

196:4 197:7

199:11

247:13,19

249:11

250:14

251:14,18

253:6 254:3

life-for-life

87:9

lifespan 35:13

35:18 131:1

131:5 193:4

252:3,4

lifetime 17:4,7

17:9 29:7

35:6 130:5

131:6 191:16

192:14

196:17,19

197:11

198:13,18

199:4 248:19

249:6 251:19

lifetimes 38:10

130:9

lift 209:21,22

210:10

lifted 202:20

light 37:4,5

104:4 179:9

lightly 143:8

like 4:7 6:3

10:7 17:22

20:13 24:15

26:8 28:11

29:17 30:2

32:21 33:11

33:17 34:12

35:5 39:18

39:22 40:7

45:1 46:13

55:17,22

57:14 60:10

61:18 62:1

64:10 68:5

70:7 71:20

73:21 75:15

75:21 78:16

79:2 81:3

82:4,6,13

83:8 84:2

85:4,13

92:19 95:13

96:16 97:3

97:18 101:16

103:11 104:4

107:5 114:17

118:4 131:3

134:6 137:21

138:7,21

139:2 144:3

154:14

157:22

170:12

173:13

174:20

177:19 178:1

178:7 179:7

180:9 182:11

186:14 187:6

188:17

195:10 196:8

197:13

206:15 207:9

209:18 217:4

218:19

219:17,21

221:8,9

223:9 224:18

226:19 227:7

227:15 228:4

228:22

229:10

230:20

231:19

232:21 233:9

239:6,20

246:12

247:22 248:4

248:11

251:10

252:12,16

259:13 262:3

likely 22:20

24:17 44:8

94:5 116:12

132:13,18

147:17 173:3

231:19

limited 111:22

Linda 3:13 6:9

line 5:20 6:1

26:10 34:16

65:20 73:15

86:8 129:13

129:15 168:6

210:14

linear 73:7

74:9

lines 87:6

list 11:1

literature

159:15

little 28:2 30:3

32:19 36:3

36:20 38:16

42:8 44:17

55:8 56:15

56:16,21

57:3 61:3,4

63:8 68:6

69:2,15 73:8

74:6 75:13

78:3,4 81:19

81:22 82:12

90:9,15

92:13,18

97:10 98:19

103:16

108:11 133:9

135:14

137:21

139:17,19

150:5 155:19

156:20

157:10 164:5

166:11,15

168:15

171:16,16

175:19 176:7

182:6 200:18

202:18 206:4

207:5 218:5

229:20

240:19 245:4

251:21

256:14

live 232:20

lives 38:22

39:4 196:5

250:16

load 51:22

60:10 61:9

64:3 68:7,7

68:11 69:1

69:16 71:15

71:16 74:15

110:1,3,7,10

110:11,14

141:19,19

142:1,2

144:7 155:5

156:4 165:4

165:14,15,16

165:16,16,18

167:12,22

170:19,20

173:18 175:1

175:10 176:7

176:8 182:15

loaded 143:8

176:3

loads 110:17

141:12,14

143:13 169:4

175:7

located 81:15

locations

78:20 85:5

locked 93:17

230:9

logic 212:16

logical 107:11

long 6:18,18

39:4 41:3

58:19,21

88:1 100:15

102:3 122:13

141:13 147:4

178:19

185:11

237:16

longer 33:12

35:6 39:18

87:10 207:3

249:17

254:15

look 9:9 14:19
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

25:20 29:12

41:10,11,11

41:22 42:1

45:21 46:1,3

46:4 48:10

52:13 53:6

57:20 58:12

60:1 61:7,20

62:2,17,18

64:8 65:19

65:22 66:18

68:5,8 69:7

72:16 73:14

77:1,8 79:1,2

79:6 85:3,4

85:12 86:7

92:12 95:7

97:3,15,16

102:1,5

103:9,13

104:9,21,21

106:9,13

107:5,20

125:6 140:5

144:19 148:4

148:5,14,18

153:4,6

155:4,11

159:17

164:15

168:17 174:4

177:14

202:17 209:2

211:4,13

213:7 214:19

232:11 235:3

240:7 242:10

254:6 257:1

257:16 260:2

261:5 262:22

looked 20:7

60:9 72:18

73:3 76:10

77:10,14

89:19 90:6

113:15 142:7

160:17,20

161:1 166:18

169:12

173:18 187:5

192:3 213:10

238:8 256:6

looking 12:9

18:9,18 26:7

29:17 30:3

32:3,4 33:8

33:11,22

50:21 54:16

55:15,19,21

68:2 69:5,9

102:19 104:7

104:20 105:9

105:22

120:16 133:9

133:11

144:15

161:22

173:16,19

176:20 180:1

192:5,21

202:17 213:9

223:20,21,22

256:18

257:15 261:3

261:8

looks 26:8

29:17 33:11

55:22 103:11

105:14 107:5

167:6 175:9

187:6 248:4

248:11

looped 190:18

Lord 141:16

162:1

Lord's 186:12

lose 224:19

losers 36:6,13

37:1,7

losing 14:16

73:18 222:16

losses 59:12

80:18 81:5

lost 4:20

lot 12:4 14:6,8

14:9 19:1

21:2 34:22

41:13 47:19

59:18,19

62:11 72:14

76:6,19

77:20 80:22

84:8 86:12

97:14 115:20

131:20,21

133:13,17

138:18 147:1

149:16 153:6

166:2 171:21

179:19,20

185:22 186:3

197:12

198:13

203:10

214:10

218:19

225:14 231:4

233:12

249:17 254:5

255:11,12,22

262:20 263:2

lots 139:8

221:9

loud 217:19

loudly 30:20

Louis 2:22 5:6

17:2,18 41:9

52:18 55:14

57:17 58:17

62:14 63:10

67:21 68:1

71:11 72:15

77:6 78:18

83:7 92:4

93:14 100:8

106:11 133:5

145:16 160:5

169:7 177:18

180:10

183:16

189:14 197:8

207:13 211:2

214:17

225:11

227:22 231:6

244:7

Louis's 59:15

love 152:3

low 37:19

75:14 81:5

81:11 96:21

98:14 99:7

141:14 144:5

180:7,17

249:20 252:1

lower 19:6,13

52:16,16

60:6 69:1

81:21 91:4

111:20

143:12,13

146:8 155:16

167:5 171:3

171:16 172:1

172:2 174:4

215:14 221:6

236:11

lowers 143:14

lowest 91:16

93:11 212:6

244:18

LU 266:3,17

lucky 8:12

lunch 32:9

41:1 100:14

100:21 117:2

117:2,2,13

127:14 128:4

luncheon

117:5

lutsers 244:14

M

machine 87:13

87:14 253:4

Maddox 3:17

6:10

made 12:12,20

13:10,13,16

13:18 76:1

82:17 83:3

94:18 98:8

121:17 141:7

144:11

147:17 160:2

186:11 190:4

241:16 263:5

magnitude

25:12 75:11

84:14 168:13

181:11

magnitudes

160:16 164:1

171:9 181:12

main 15:8

34:10 59:4

64:2 84:3

100:3 143:19

mainly 206:15

207:11

maintain 57:11

244:9 254:9

254:11

major 89:20

193:15 195:1

majority

193:15

make-up 133:8

makes 11:13

11:14 38:15
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

56:2 61:21

69:1 84:8

92:11 104:17

142:4 144:3

165:18 178:7

179:1 220:15

253:9

making 9:12

55:5 135:8

171:19 174:1

178:18 181:6

215:9 221:7

222:16 232:6

232:13 245:5

251:5 254:11

manner

114:18

manufacture

15:12 26:16

31:13 33:2

78:15 95:22

96:21 103:7

120:6

manufacturer

65:1 76:2,8,9

76:10,22,22

77:2 78:16

79:7 87:11

91:3,16

92:17 94:14

94:14,20

95:7,20 96:3

96:13 97:3

98:22 103:1

103:19 104:3

111:13

153:22 196:1

manufacture...

96:6

manufacture...

19:21 20:4

21:4 22:18

38:2 39:2,6

43:16 44:10

44:20 46:8

48:14 49:9

49:14,18

50:9,12 58:8

61:5 62:4

64:15,20

67:8 79:16

87:5 89:20

91:11 92:15

93:15 94:1

97:20,21

98:4 102:2

102:13,17

107:18

109:10 112:2

122:8 123:8

123:9 124:13

125:1 147:18

156:15,16

177:21

178:12

193:14,15,21

194:6 196:9

220:19,21

253:16 265:5

manufacture...

60:18

manufacturi...

39:6

many 14:12

56:18 58:15

87:22 89:11

98:12 107:3

108:19,19

110:20

113:16

115:10 122:7

122:8 175:4

189:20

223:14,22

map 70:17

mapping

199:8

margin 236:8

marginal

230:6

Mark 3:1 5:8

35:10 37:21

38:16 80:15

80:16 130:21

188:10,11

192:12

203:12 206:6

212:10 218:3

219:17,18

220:8,10,17

221:20 223:5

224:14,18

236:4 251:12

mark-ups 33:4

market 16:14

17:1 20:6

21:6,11

22:17,17

24:22 27:21

27:22 57:19

60:2 64:10

66:19 75:11

84:15,16

85:2,6 86:15

98:3,6

107:12 108:7

109:7 135:13

143:11

147:12

194:12,20

235:19 236:1

253:13,18

255:8

marketplace

134:18 135:5

marking 33:3

Marshal 70:15

Marshall 2:16

5:2 11:8

50:17 54:13

151:3 159:7

177:1,13

179:5 183:12

233:13,16

239:11

254:19

261:22

262:12

match 107:22

110:1 196:17

matching 52:5

83:21

material 12:17

12:21 13:21

19:11 23:14

24:3 191:1

239:9

materials 12:4

12:9 13:4

19:2 23:9

31:21 203:17

203:20

208:19

math 36:4

37:11 139:3

matter 119:2

140:6,7

218:17 219:7

231:12

232:14

234:18 255:3

260:21

matters 21:1

22:3 206:9

225:13

max 96:5 99:1

maximum

29:13 173:1

Maxtech 96:5

111:17

112:12,16

113:15,17

may 1:6 24:16

27:1 58:3,3

60:5,8 67:3

71:14 76:16

76:17 78:3

88:17 147:18

150:2,2

168:14 176:6

180:14 181:3

216:7 218:8

222:6,8,9

224:9 229:9

252:22 265:6

265:13

maybe 22:3

25:21 28:18

30:9,10 32:9

36:19 40:7

45:12,20

56:3,20 57:1

57:22 78:11

78:14 88:3

91:1 92:11

94:17 95:18

97:17 98:1,1

100:20

104:22

106:13

108:11 114:3

119:9 124:15

127:19

137:10

148:13,18

155:3 160:11

171:15

172:18

181:21 182:6

184:15

205:18,19

212:10 215:3

216:3 217:13

218:17 225:8

227:2 228:11

229:17

231:17

236:19 240:7

240:12

243:14 256:1
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

262:12,22,22

264:2

Mays 5:22

MBCs 31:22

McCABE2:12

6:15,15

McCADDEN

126:10,10

McCRUDDEN

2:17 4:15,15

MCX 93:10,12

mean 10:2,9

21:6 25:17

25:20,20,21

33:16 34:7

34:21 35:5

38:7 39:17

40:6,6 53:19

57:5 59:22

60:16 61:22

62:6 63:14

64:14 70:2

72:13 80:2

96:16 98:1

101:15,16

103:4,5,7

107:1 110:18

114:6 116:14

132:9 134:4

136:7,14

137:6 138:11

140:3 147:9

149:9 155:16

156:1,15

160:12

162:19

163:15 164:4

164:5 170:18

171:20 173:4

173:7 174:1

178:16

180:22 181:4

181:6 184:20

185:15,21

186:18

188:19

194:11

197:17

205:20

211:17

213:13

214:19 215:2

216:5,8,12

217:15,20,21

218:17 219:6

221:1 224:9

226:5,13

227:14 229:5

229:15,19

231:10 232:3

241:18 247:3

255:22

258:19 259:8

260:7 261:3

262:7 265:5

means 8:16

16:18 27:3

36:21 106:18

136:9 142:13

195:12 200:3

202:17

207:14

216:10

222:11

225:13 226:5

226:9,12

227:16 252:6

meant 136:7

136:17

measure 82:13

82:14 125:3

189:3

measured

80:20 189:1

measurement

82:17 189:6

measureme...

83:1,3,5

median 18:21

91:21 92:9

95:15

meet 156:16

176:7 261:18

265:6

meeting 1:2

4:6 27:13

32:6 35:16

37:22 43:2

80:10 111:12

119:21

143:20

164:14

173:17

192:10 238:2

261:17

265:12

meeting's 18:5

meetings 8:7

43:14 173:17

Meg 3:5 5:13

15:6 26:6

29:21 31:5

59:14 101:20

101:21

102:19 125:7

members

108:16

192:11

194:15,16

249:11

memories

214:7

mention 145:8

mentioned

10:12 13:3

95:21 111:12

113:10

met 120:22

metal 118:6

method

153:18 160:3

170:5

metric 63:3

67:22 154:9

154:15 155:4

156:1,5,9

157:16,20

176:12 262:5

metrics 121:21

122:1,12

124:2

Meyers 3:12

6:7,9

MFR 85:12

MIA 120:4,6,8

120:15,16

mic 4:9

Michael 2:12

2:21 3:14 6:9

6:15

Mick 117:10

micro 93:1,8

93:14,14,19

94:10

Micrometl

75:9

Micrometyl

108:16

microphone

30:20 31:16

Mid-Atlantic

165:22

mid-March

74:13

middle 189:1

Midwest

205:10 207:6

might 14:11

30:4 34:19

35:21 41:13

41:14 46:3

46:10 48:5,6

61:18,19

68:22 78:11

133:15,21

134:2 138:14

140:19

148:21

155:21

161:20

165:17 173:2

197:15 217:1

217:2 225:21

250:19

252:17

253:17

Mike 3:15,21

5:12 6:9,19

42:1 126:10

millions 94:3

mind 57:18

63:10 64:12

125:13

174:14

180:22

183:15

mine 124:22

minor 141:7

143:5 176:18

minus 163:14

minute 14:19

50:15 240:12

minutes 48:15

49:17 251:9

Mislak 2:18

4:17,17

193:10,13

194:13,16,22

195:21

misleading

247:1

missing

151:16

152:17,18

193:14

Mitsubishi

4:22 10:6

158:22 253:7

mixed 249:12

mixing 161:5
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

mode 141:20

141:21

model 16:13

20:8 28:16

50:22 53:9

53:11,12

57:2 67:5

77:9,9,11,12

77:12,12

80:5,6 83:6

86:3,3 92:6

114:7 180:17

192:21 196:6

196:7,12

228:14 249:2

251:2,3,7

modeling

173:11

198:17 236:3

modelled

173:11

models 12:12

12:16 43:6

43:17 44:12

44:21 58:2

91:4 107:3,4

111:22

148:18 151:2

160:13 162:5

163:2,3,4

180:18

184:17 196:9

moderate

166:11

modes 142:9

modified

259:4

modifying

210:15

modulating

109:22

moisture 23:4

moments 7:8

money 222:16

222:16

224:19

monotonically

69:11

Monte 179:21

more 14:7,9,9

14:14,15

16:2 19:1

22:1 23:1,8

23:12 25:12

26:7 27:4

32:21 36:13

36:22 40:4,9

42:9,12

44:17 47:19

55:9 56:21

57:3,13,14

57:22 58:21

61:3,4 62:22

64:6,7 68:7

70:13 71:9

71:21 72:4

74:11,22

76:21 78:10

79:9 80:3

81:5 82:1

89:9 97:10

101:10

102:11

103:16 104:2

104:6,15

105:6,9

107:7,7

109:11,18

114:5 116:20

121:16 123:2

123:22

131:13 132:1

134:2,6,9

135:11

137:21

138:20 140:8

146:15 147:6

148:6 154:1

154:12

155:21 156:3

156:3 157:8

157:13,13

159:17

162:13 163:7

163:11

166:11 167:5

167:15

168:15 170:6

170:20 172:2

172:16 176:1

177:20 179:6

180:19,21

181:7 184:5

185:1,1,10

186:5 190:22

193:7,20

196:7 197:2

202:18 203:7

203:8 204:11

205:13,22

206:1 211:8

211:9,20

213:21

214:10,19

215:11,13

216:2 218:9

218:12 229:1

229:7,17

231:3 251:19

251:20

252:19 253:1

254:3 260:20

261:6 262:9

263:10

264:13,15,20

265:1

morning 4:3

10:21 14:2

46:15 89:8

120:19 128:8

130:4 146:12

147:18 148:8

237:15

most 12:11,22

13:6,15 14:5

22:20 24:16

31:20 58:14

76:22 156:16

159:21

176:21

184:14

188:17 193:2

193:14 212:4

motion 178:12

233:14,17,19

motive 254:13

motor 68:22

motors 215:12

Mountain

166:5

move 27:8

41:17 48:9

55:16 94:6

99:7 111:7

135:13 152:1

152:5,19

157:8,11

174:22 177:3

177:6 180:8

187:9 199:1

231:18

232:16,20

237:22

239:14 247:9

258:1

moving 55:7

64:21 75:4

84:11 178:17

179:9 189:15

226:18 235:8

235:9

MPCs 112:2

MPV 35:3 36:7

37:3,10

much 22:3

26:15 42:3

43:4 47:3,9

47:13 53:21

55:12 60:22

65:22 69:22

72:16 78:1,9

78:10 81:3

82:6 84:12

91:19 101:9

102:14

106:14

107:10

108:19 140:6

144:10 154:8

170:9,16

173:4 178:6

178:7 180:14

189:11 207:2

207:3,8,11

208:18,20

211:18

219:12,22

229:12 255:5

259:7 261:5

multi 246:11

multiple 13:3

60:10 85:5

145:3 179:2

190:12

multiples

175:7

multiply 174:6

230:12

multistage

245:6

multizone

245:21 246:1

Murphy 3:16

6:10

must 68:13

N

N 4:1 12:10

117:7,7,7

NA 242:7
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

nail 150:4,5

name 4:8,19

159:16

named 238:5

names 5:21

6:3 8:17

national 36:7

36:15 129:22

129:22

171:10

176:21

253:15,19,19

254:8 255:10

natural 5:13

139:22

Navigant 6:17

6:18 7:2,4,6

10:22 18:8

31:18 42:19

48:14 60:3

62:12 109:5

111:10

127:14

Navigant's

63:11

NDAs 185:7

near 188:14

near-term

124:16

nearly 140:10

necessarily

44:7 54:5,9

69:10 93:3,6

102:14

156:14,15

163:22 169:3

169:6 197:14

245:22

necessary

74:19 220:19

230:20

NEEA 8:13

17:2 41:9

52:18 68:1

71:11 92:4

133:5 145:16

160:5 169:7

177:18

180:10 197:8

207:13

need 44:5 46:3

96:17 100:4

104:13

106:15 107:3

107:6,8,10

118:16 137:4

144:9 151:12

151:15

159:10

163:17 176:6

177:11

179:12

189:10

193:20 194:1

194:1 195:5

195:22 207:2

219:12 229:9

231:18

233:14

234:14 239:8

241:1,12

242:6 243:15

needed 69:15

169:22

needing

166:17

needs 45:4

58:10 252:22

negates 83:19

negative 73:17

126:22 127:1

negotiate

126:7 137:11

181:18,20

negotiated 4:5

8:17 122:5,6

122:14 123:6

124:11,14

126:13

negotiating

9:22 121:6

178:20

negotiation

149:18,19

neither 266:8

net 14:9,10,12

15:17 17:19

17:21 18:10

18:14 29:12

29:13 33:10

263:6,7,11

263:16,20

264:9,10

never 100:4

169:22 170:5

new 4:11 28:5

77:17,22

80:2 83:16

86:13,14,16

86:17 89:8

98:18 100:4

100:5,9

106:16,18

112:13

120:21

147:11

151:12

158:15

165:22

184:21

191:17 197:2

209:16,16

210:5,11,13

210:16

234:21

235:20 236:1

248:12 249:3

250:4,21

254:1

newer 79:20

newly-install...

248:5

next 91:5,9

95:11 139:20

144:8 158:15

158:16 175:1

195:21 198:8

219:13

250:17

258:22

261:18

nice 138:18

186:20,21

219:8,13

Nick 2:18 4:17

194:4 195:9

Nick's 192:2

192:11

nickel 150:20

night 159:14

nights 210:21

nine 194:22

195:7

nobody 74:11

87:9 143:22

NODAs 184:21

185:17

noise 11:15

nominal 89:16

94:22 250:9

non- 151:16

174:9

non-compre...

191:12

247:10

non-conden...

12:7

non-econom...

166:19 174:3

non-represe...

95:15

non-represe...

91:17,20

95:15

none 73:21

202:21

NOPR 11:22

28:10 73:11

73:22 145:3

152:22

183:19 184:2

184:7,12

186:1 257:4

257:9 261:1

nor 266:9,12

normal 124:19

185:3,19

normally 184:9

186:2 245:14

north 166:1,1

234:13

northern

131:22,22

Northwest 5:6

166:5

notable 25:18

note 37:16

124:7 179:10

247:12

258:11

259:21 261:2

noted 27:18

195:8 206:16

227:20

nothing 27:15

120:21 212:4

notice 115:20

notwithstan...

42:4

NPC 33:4

NRDC 15:7

26:6 29:21

101:22

NRIL 161:1

162:4

nuance 147:7

number 14:11

16:10 29:1

29:11 35:16

38:15 63:17
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

70:19 73:17

74:3,4 77:14

88:4 108:10

110:22

111:22 113:4

113:11,19

118:18 119:2

130:3,10,12

136:4 139:21

143:4 145:11

145:17

147:14

151:20 157:7

162:1 167:15

171:12,15

178:1,1

188:22 205:2

206:11 212:9

223:18 225:7

225:21 226:4

228:2,8,9,13

234:3 250:12

257:13 261:9

263:10

numbered

99:13

numbers 15:5

18:6 20:22

26:8 27:14

29:9,18 31:7

34:7,17,22

35:2 36:9

38:1 68:3

69:17 70:14

70:20 72:14

73:1,2 74:1

81:5,6,16

107:15 108:8

109:4 137:18

139:3,12

144:10,20,22

148:17

151:21

152:11,14,15

152:22

159:11

160:19 161:9

169:10

173:20,21

174:4 177:14

177:17 178:7

178:14 180:5

181:1,5,7,12

187:5,8

188:19 189:7

191:6 192:15

193:8,19

195:10,12,15

196:8 204:5

204:7 205:14

216:9 220:1

222:9 223:9

223:10,11

224:10,18

230:1,13

231:15

232:12,20

236:6,9

247:14

255:17,20

256:12

257:18 258:4

258:22

259:15,15,17

259:18

262:21

263:14

nuts 236:20

O

O 4:1 117:7,7,7

objective

197:18

observation

102:16

observe

121:22

observed 20:6

obstructions

210:2

obtaining

75:10

obviously 9:12

99:3 137:7

175:22

197:10

227:19

262:21

occur 23:2

141:14

247:20

occurring

23:11

odd 142:7

OEMs 214:15

off 5:21 10:3

30:7,8 45:10

49:22,22

51:5 117:4

119:11 136:5

137:13,14

142:20 144:4

150:15,19

156:12 180:8

187:17 191:3

203:15

205:20 265:7

off-line 46:22

offer 53:16

220:10

offering 189:8

office 162:22

offset 144:17

151:14

often 24:17

86:8 264:21

oh 18:13 19:15

55:1 56:4

63:1 71:3

86:1 105:18

116:2 117:11

119:11,15

123:15,18

127:15

136:10

152:12 186:7

187:15

193:10 207:6

222:4 248:8

oil 38:7,7

140:1,3

oil-fired 13:20

okay 17:15

19:15 26:12

32:10 34:21

42:15,16,17

47:2 49:13

50:7 54:7

55:1,2,6

56:10 68:18

68:19 69:3

72:10 74:19

79:2,5 80:13

86:1 88:2

91:6,9,13

92:3 101:7

111:4 114:21

114:21

115:16 117:3

117:9,9

118:16 119:7

120:12,14

123:18

127:22

129:18

135:17

136:10

137:12 138:9

140:22 147:5

152:15

157:14 159:5

163:20 183:2

183:11

187:16

189:15 195:2

196:2 199:1

212:8 217:10

217:21 218:4

220:21

221:10 222:4

224:14 227:1

228:18,22

233:12,16,19

235:8,9

236:14,15,17

237:21 240:2

241:3 243:21

247:9 256:4

258:1 264:14

old 77:22

79:19 88:15

151:2 210:9

older 86:12

180:20

once 46:3,4

53:6 95:17

107:9 122:10

122:20 159:9

167:18 230:8

one's 220:3

one- 252:18

one-third

174:11

ones 58:19,22

68:4 77:10

83:16 85:9

192:16

256:21

ongoing 8:20

onto 218:9

open 115:22

185:9 256:22

opening 106:4

openings

210:14

operate 59:5

175:7

operating 69:1

167:5 175:5

operation 23:3
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

23:12 36:17

155:11 156:9

214:11

operator

208:17

opinion 85:11

134:18

171:18 172:1

220:8

opportunities

126:6 133:18

opportunity

133:14,22,22

135:12

245:16

opposed 38:8

56:1 59:7

134:10

247:14

opposite 78:7

234:10

option 22:21

24:14 25:12

options 104:1

104:2

orange 166:12

order 16:10

27:6 43:21

51:21 57:11

58:16 77:4

90:1 93:4

151:18

156:16

241:10

orders 25:12

organization

4:9

organizations

121:12 123:7

124:12

original 83:19

228:9 229:22

252:3

originally

11:21 12:6

178:4

os 159:2

otherwise 9:6

42:2 96:3

109:21 142:2

266:12

ours 88:14

159:2

outcome 88:9

266:13

outdoor 16:15

16:17 17:1

47:15,16

164:20

167:13

outlet 81:13

outlier 58:14

output 141:2

outs 35:13

outside 71:16

103:13

133:15

134:13,17,18

134:21 135:1

154:9 167:20

outstanding

237:15

outweigh

255:15

ovens 93:16

94:2,2

over 11:2,5

12:20 14:3

28:2 29:18

41:18 73:9

116:1 127:20

135:19

139:20

140:11 143:6

155:11

164:16

188:16

189:16

196:21 207:8

233:4 236:22

240:6 256:14

overall 36:14

119:20 120:3

132:20 135:5

160:15 168:4

253:18

overcome

59:8

overestimati...

147:20

overlap 216:19

216:21

217:16

220:22

overly 55:12

overnight

239:21 263:1

overview 43:1

overwhelms

37:9

own 79:10

123:7 124:12

248:3

Owned 5:3

owner 77:4

225:5

P

P 4:1

p.m 117:5,8

118:15

187:18,19

265:12

Pacific 151:3

159:7 166:5

package 138:8

162:13

packaged

162:7 256:10

packages

162:16

Page 240:11

pages 266:4

pales 250:22

panels 140:17

paper 118:5

parent 153:17

part 8:9 12:21

21:19 42:12

57:17 68:7

90:5 100:9

100:18

109:11

110:10 122:5

143:12 158:7

171:3 182:8

222:14,15

235:14

parte 185:5

participating

194:9

particular 18:2

44:9 56:13

57:2 61:9

72:13 76:1,1

81:8 110:9

127:1 147:13

175:20 178:6

249:10

particularly

43:18 179:7

parties 266:9

266:11

partly 85:19

parts 13:21

24:8 40:7

186:19

pass 23:17,19

41:18 43:8

44:18 194:2

passed 50:14

passthrough

23:16

past 38:18

122:19 125:6

125:10

180:21

path 52:6,6,8

52:11,11

55:8,16

112:15,16,18

paths 112:14

145:3 190:12

patience 9:14

pattern 253:20

Paul 2:14 4:22

10:5 158:21

253:7

pay 140:15

158:9 225:20

payback 18:21

33:9,12 34:9

36:5 189:17

259:9,19

260:8,8

261:9

paybacks

259:12

paying 226:2

peak 100:14

159:10

peculiar 143:7

penalized

33:14

people 14:16

16:3 20:10

27:1 29:17

36:22 37:1

45:1,13

82:10,16

86:3 121:11

137:8 205:13

208:15

220:16

223:10 239:7

245:20 255:2

per 19:2 115:6

153:6 204:13

205:4 208:9

223:7 227:9
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

227:11

percent 12:12

12:13 13:15

14:6 16:3,7,8

16:8,9,11,22

17:1,22

18:10,14

19:8,8,9 20:8

20:8,9 21:5,5

21:9 22:4

24:1 25:13

25:13,14

27:11,11,11

27:21,22

28:11 32:5,7

33:9 54:4

56:16 69:16

81:16 88:6

98:14,18

99:16 106:16

106:17,18

107:1,6,8,9

110:3,11

116:3 128:16

128:17

133:15

134:13,17,18

134:21 135:1

135:5 140:11

150:20

168:22 169:5

169:9,10,14

172:3 173:12

173:19 174:2

174:7,10

176:21,22

177:20,22

180:19,19

206:2 236:1

238:20,22

241:4,7,10

242:3 243:4

243:8,9,9,13

244:5,6,12

248:1,7,8,12

252:2 253:18

254:4 255:6

256:14 257:3

257:5,6,7,9

257:10 260:5

263:5,15,16

263:19,21,21

264:5,9,10

264:13

percentage

27:9 33:14

36:21 53:17

53:20 54:3

85:14 108:6

132:20 167:3

178:16 222:8

248:5,6

264:16

percentages

12:15 20:14

20:14 170:6

170:7

perfect 135:2

156:2,5

169:21 170:4

perfectly

166:13 172:3

173:2

performance

38:19,19

51:17,21

52:1,9 60:17

61:2 73:6

110:15,17

125:4,16

164:1 244:21

performed

245:9

performs

138:21

perhaps 62:7

69:15 150:8

163:20

period 23:10

periods

189:17

person 4:8

20:1 205:15

personally

169:4 174:14

180:6

PG&E 5:2 11:9

50:18 54:14

70:15 177:1

233:13

239:11

254:19

261:22

phone 121:14

183:1

phrased

204:22

phrasing

183:12

physical

213:14 215:6

pick 33:11

63:11 92:8

104:8 166:20

167:18

186:18

231:17

picked 58:3

60:12 95:4

167:17

picking 114:7

261:8

picture 165:11

piece 62:22

101:4 118:5

190:20

238:10,19

241:21

246:15,17

pieces 135:14

piping 210:7

pit 94:9

place 125:15

125:17

151:17

184:10,19

plain 10:17

plan 254:17

planning 38:1

196:8

platform 112:3

play 138:15

223:5

players 195:1

plays 140:12

plaza 117:17

118:20 234:1

265:8

plead 159:11

please 4:8

11:11 31:6

plug 70:4

plugged

223:10

plus 33:13

58:2 86:17

88:19 165:16

176:7 225:10

PNNL 160:19

162:5 163:2

163:4

podium 11:10

point 9:18,19

10:4,7 36:3

46:17 47:18

58:18 61:9

62:15 64:2

67:21 69:1

78:12 80:9

82:9 83:8

87:16 96:1

96:17 105:20

106:2 111:7

113:1 121:6

121:17

127:10 133:6

133:10

139:13 149:4

153:2 160:2

162:4 163:13

168:3 170:8

172:6 178:16

179:3 180:1

180:8,11,12

181:16 182:2

186:17

191:20 194:1

198:6 206:2

206:8 207:14

215:17,17

226:15

231:16 232:5

232:13 237:5

260:9,10,11

260:16 265:2

pointed 238:7

pointing 32:14

123:19

260:21

points 45:9

51:20 77:20

93:9 110:8

121:18 124:2

153:20

227:15

238:14

264:15,16

policy 150:17

150:22 160:9

181:5,18

231:20

232:14

pop 84:22

population

145:21

169:21

174:12

portion 37:9

255:7

portrait 78:16
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

37

79:12 80:5

pose 127:7

position

181:17

positions 79:3

218:21

positive 14:12

36:7,14

positively

197:15

possibilities

121:7

possible 30:1

47:4 57:5

101:6 121:16

193:8 196:2

245:5 252:22

Postal 234:11

potentially

44:21 45:3

57:7 89:12

97:16 160:12

193:19 196:1

pound 227:11

pounds

202:21

208:17,18

power 48:5

52:14,16

55:13,15

56:1,7,15

58:13 61:8,8

62:3 63:18

68:10 73:13

74:6,10,16

154:15,17

209:18

PowerPoint

7:14,15

50:19

powers 74:2

PPI 202:3,9

practicalities

132:10

practice 38:12

pre- 171:13

184:9

precedent

8:22

precedent-s...

10:13

precooling

172:18

predicted

171:15

predicting

39:3 166:9

prediction

164:13

prefer 39:10

197:17

preliminary

120:4 186:2

premium

210:20

prepare 141:4

prepared 45:6

prescriptive

125:3,17

126:12,14,17

present 29:12

29:13 108:2

120:4 141:1

143:18 144:7

210:6 250:12

presentation

18:9 28:18

42:21 74:21

75:8 111:16

117:1 187:11

presentations

18:5

presented

26:5 89:15

111:20 112:9

143:3 202:13

presenting

43:10

presents

133:17

147:10

pressure 57:7

57:11,13,22

58:2 59:6,9

60:6,7 68:13

68:17,21

75:10,12,14

76:11,13

77:14 78:10

80:18 81:7

81:11 84:1

97:12 145:18

148:14,20

161:4,6

219:19

pressures

160:11

180:16,20,21

188:8,14

presumably

77:3 90:15

presume

259:20

presumption

19:1

pretty 10:15

42:3 62:9,12

85:13 101:13

106:14

107:10

180:17 187:7

189:11

191:19 204:8

205:16

207:11

211:21

223:12 236:7

241:9 245:16

248:6 253:20

254:18

259:17,17,19

previous

17:13 68:4

previously

27:19 35:7

111:20

145:10

price 31:21

33:3,5 66:12

139:16,16

202:5 203:19

203:21,22

204:4 218:9

221:5 225:21

226:1,1

229:20

prices 12:21

13:21 31:21

32:21 41:4,6

139:19,20

201:18,21

202:1,2

205:11

217:15

primarily 86:5

primary

196:13

print 15:1

printed 144:16

144:17

printing 7:21

printouts 30:1

30:11

prior 124:9

213:11

privately 46:20

122:5,6

123:6 124:11

privileged

44:22

probably

13:12 38:14

39:1 45:20

53:7 55:11

57:14 60:21

64:7 76:17

76:22 82:5

83:18 85:10

88:21 108:7

124:18,21

132:13

149:12

153:21 170:6

173:4 193:22

195:1 213:14

216:10 225:6

226:14 229:8

244:13,18

262:21 265:2

problem 21:9

78:1 84:6

138:10

153:20,20

154:4,5,6,13

232:7,8

problems

21:22 226:14

procedure

68:14 110:4

134:22

157:21 158:7

158:16

proceed

174:20

191:21

proceedings

266:8

process 65:2

100:13

122:11

124:20

141:13

158:11 182:8

183:15,16

185:8,19

187:3 198:13

214:2 254:15

254:16

producing

244:13,19
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

38

product 18:22

24:11,11

25:14,16

29:7 34:8

35:6 37:1

44:14 47:9

61:12,12

65:20 86:7

86:17 91:16

104:2,6

112:4 130:9

134:6,8

217:6 250:14

250:16

production

15:12 26:16

31:14 33:2

products

21:11 28:12

60:1 64:13

76:3 84:17

86:12 102:7

112:6 125:14

257:16,17

profiles 45:7

46:6 48:4

51:9 59:18

60:10

program 82:21

programs 63:8

245:12

projecting

202:1

prolong 23:6

promptly

121:16,16,16

235:6

pronounced

42:12

proper 34:14

properly 70:20

144:1 158:17

property 118:7

118:10,12

proportionat...

202:16

proposal

182:13

propose 65:4

65:5 233:2

proposed 29:1

127:2 251:3

251:8,17

258:8 260:22

261:1 262:8

263:6

proposing

136:22

protect 47:5

protected 47:6

protects

224:22

prototype's

162:22

prototypes

161:2,18

162:21

proves 172:2

provide 8:19

20:22 45:3

97:17 160:1

194:17 197:2

provided

130:8 197:14

provides

249:2

providing

227:17

provisions 9:5

proximity

206:21

proxy 16:13

203:6 207:20

216:13 221:9

PTAC 257:6

public 3:19

6:14 61:1

122:5 253:13

publicly 61:1

publicly- 49:7

pull 18:5 50:15

pulled 82:5

pulling 216:9,9

pump 257:4

pumps 256:10

purchase

12:21 13:21

31:21

purple 93:11

93:11 166:12

purposes 90:9

98:5 154:10

pursuant

123:4

push 27:4,6

71:21

pushing

149:20

put 20:12

39:20 42:3

57:6 63:1

70:13 78:14

82:5 83:20

126:5 136:2

136:14

150:14 176:8

177:5 179:20

184:21,22

194:4 203:15

211:7,9,12

211:20

214:22

216:15

218:12 220:9

223:3 234:21

240:6,6

241:13

243:10 246:1

253:12

puts 146:2

putting 26:17

106:20

157:12

241:21

245:13 250:4

puzzling 36:3

Q

quads 130:14

171:15

181:21,21

qualitatively

165:13

quality 239:13

quantity

168:12

quarter 163:15

163:16

question 10:8

17:15 21:3

22:16 25:11

28:8 34:10

34:11 35:4

37:14 40:10

45:12 59:15

60:3 63:14

72:22 79:8

80:18 82:9

82:10 89:1

96:13 99:9

104:20

115:20

119:22

120:18 124:5

126:18

129:19

130:12,21

132:2 139:10

148:9 150:11

158:13 159:1

174:13 175:3

192:2 193:2

193:11 196:6

204:21

206:15

208:12,12

209:8,15

221:11 222:2

224:15

231:20

236:18

240:18 242:5

242:22 244:8

250:1 251:13

252:1 262:1

264:3,22

questions

8:14 9:7,18

17:17 31:3

34:13 35:15

35:16,17

41:17 84:11

116:20

119:10

121:20 127:8

127:21 128:1

128:6 135:18

138:14

145:16

183:14

188:13 191:3

203:13

205:22 206:1

220:11,12,13

220:17 236:9

237:22 263:1

queue 181:20

quick 49:1

130:21

145:16

185:20 194:1

195:21,22

251:13

quickly 11:16

193:8

quiet 11:11

quite 9:16

18:14 33:19

67:15 86:8

105:14,16
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

39

145:20 147:2

172:9 205:20

252:17

R

R 4:1 117:7

rack 125:8

raise 119:17

119:19

136:19

raised 80:9,14

262:1

raises 42:5

ran 195:19

Randy 64:16

range 24:3

73:20 85:21

89:21 114:7

156:20 207:9

223:9 256:17

Rangers

234:22

Ransom 6:3

rate 67:9

173:12 257:3

257:7

rated 20:8

rates 249:4

256:4,13

rather 69:17

131:14

133:12

135:12

148:16 265:2

rating 65:16

65:17 67:1,4

154:1 160:3

ratio 36:6

ratios 93:15

raw 12:21

Ray 3:15 6:9

re-ask 208:12

reach 205:12

223:2 225:16

225:17

reached 193:1

194:13

reaction 105:7

read 5:21 6:2

152:13 218:5

230:5

reading 36:8

85:14 264:8

ready 7:22

120:1,2,15

real 39:1

142:10

169:19 170:3

175:6,15

202:2 230:17

256:13 257:3

257:7

reality 63:5

177:20 180:4

208:14

realize 97:14

140:4 255:10

really 13:20

22:12 23:1

26:8 37:17

40:6,7 63:3,4

72:22 73:1

75:14 82:15

84:1,3 89:8

92:15 95:16

96:18 107:2

107:6,19

108:2 110:7

121:4 130:7

133:11,15

143:22

144:10

157:20 158:6

162:6 164:6

166:16 167:7

170:10,14,16

171:4,6,7,22

172:5,7,20

173:10

175:18

176:18 180:2

181:11

183:22

186:14

188:16 206:9

207:15 208:9

208:22

211:18 215:4

222:20

225:13 226:7

226:8 230:5

230:13

246:22

249:19

253:12 259:7

realm 121:7

reason 29:6

59:4 80:20

104:19

114:11

128:11 130:2

137:10

140:18

196:20 224:6

224:11

227:14,16

reasonable

62:12 85:2

90:10 95:18

101:15,16

143:11

160:21

161:10

162:17,18

166:13 167:4

173:13

177:22 178:1

189:8 217:22

219:20 231:2

reasonably

89:21

reasons 254:5

recalibrate

249:1

recap 8:4

175:2

received 75:21

191:17 251:7

254:21

recent 12:22

31:21 256:7

256:7,8

recess 30:14

50:2 117:6

187:18

recollection

122:19

recommend...

124:11 126:2

231:16 233:7

recommended

124:15

reconciles

35:1

record 30:7,8

30:16,18

49:22 50:1,5

50:5 51:5

117:4 119:9

119:12,14,15

126:6 139:12

186:8 187:17

188:1 219:9

219:14 220:2

232:10 265:7

266:7

red 166:7,11

168:6

redesign

254:1

redo 177:7

182:14

redone 177:5

reduce 23:6

86:9 113:4

130:11,18

reduced

156:12 266:5

reducer 81:2

reducers 81:1

reducing

241:22

reduction

168:18

reference

239:14

references

257:12,20

refine 109:15

109:17

reflect 12:22

139:12 237:5

reflected

28:12 128:16

221:22

reflects 197:15

refrigerants

23:18

refrigeration

57:21 156:7

regarding

75:10,12

128:7

regardless

214:6 244:9

region 165:21

167:2 168:18

176:13

regions

131:22 132:1

167:5

regneg 122:6

regulation

122:3 125:11

regulatory

122:11

124:19 126:1

reiterate 27:1

rejected

126:15 127:2
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

40

relate 50:20

related 44:2

266:8

relating 204:9

relationship

93:7

relative 78:20

108:5 128:10

129:21

160:16 164:1

170:21

181:12,17

218:20

266:10

relatively 19:4

29:8 178:15

release 195:14

relevant 34:11

77:1 157:5

171:9

reliable 140:15

reloading

175:21

reluctant

44:18

remain 9:22

206:12 214:6

remains 24:8

52:14

remember

17:20 33:1

51:9 93:14

121:19

178:19

222:11 235:5

253:8

reminded

38:17

reminder

74:18

reminders

30:19

reminding

17:6

remittance

120:4

remove 175:17

removed

200:17 239:4

reopen 256:3

repair 131:12

191:11,12

247:20 248:2

248:11 250:1

250:21

252:16

253:10

repair-replace

248:16

250:20

repairing

131:14 248:9

250:3

repairs 191:13

247:10,12,16

249:11

repeat 27:13

28:21 190:11

228:6

rephrase

208:11

replace 87:8

90:2 131:13

248:6 251:13

252:16

253:10

replaced 47:12

210:6,14

254:15

replacement

87:10 90:2

100:10

106:17

190:19 200:7

200:13,16

201:15 210:4

235:18 238:1

238:4 239:4

243:5,11,16

243:18 244:1

250:3,6

251:18

254:17 261:4

261:13

replacements

191:2 210:4

255:17

replacing

88:19,20

131:14

140:16

246:15 250:2

report 109:3

120:22 162:5

reported 76:13

201:22

reporter 4:11

22:11 266:1

266:4,17

reporting

108:22

represent

60:17 97:21

114:7

representati...

93:19

representative

51:12 58:20

58:22 59:16

60:14 62:5

62:10 162:1

181:3 194:20

209:6

represented

123:8 126:3

176:13

representing

173:2

represents

98:21 132:19

133:1 169:19

reprogramm...

229:10

reputable 85:4

226:13 255:3

request 177:6

182:14

191:18

194:14 199:3

require 89:12

90:1,20 91:8

98:18 200:4

required 96:7

97:12 98:13

105:21 200:8

214:8

requirement

54:15 58:2

68:21 96:2

156:17

184:12,18

185:20

requirements

9:6,9

requires

128:18

requiring

177:4

research

101:14

253:14,20

reset 251:14

residential

21:19 76:18

88:3 122:2

125:12 140:8

256:21 257:9

resistant 23:8

23:13 25:13

resolve 47:13

resolved 47:19

resource

239:13

Resources

5:14

respect 197:5

206:13

respectively

201:5

responded

205:15

respondent

205:13

respondents

188:18 193:4

204:8

response 34:6

42:6 112:10

116:21

127:11

188:15 218:5

218:8

responses

36:1

rest 14:1 45:3

97:22 208:19

242:10

result 36:17

89:12 122:4

123:4 124:10

239:4 261:5

resulted

206:17

resulting

176:12

results 11:6

13:2 14:4

17:14 28:17

29:2 43:3,5

45:16 55:12

111:14 142:5

143:7,18

144:8 147:10

154:14,18

165:6 168:2

191:14

238:16 245:7

259:2

resume 265:13

resuming
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

41

30:14 50:2

187:18

retail 33:5

retailers

255:11,16

retrofit 253:22

retrofits

254:14

return 37:14

71:1,5,18

78:7 140:15

188:14

returning

127:15

revealed 47:4

review 44:3

49:17 91:1

95:3 252:9

reviewed

49:14

reviewing

159:14

revised 37:17

144:9 152:21

152:22

RFI 183:16

184:6,13

Richard 3:16

6:10

rid 167:12

right 8:12 9:5

10:2 15:22

16:20,20

19:18 20:15

20:16,17,20

21:7 25:3,9

26:15 33:3

38:7 41:7,8

45:17 46:21

48:21 49:10

53:7,13 54:7

54:11,12,18

55:4 56:10

57:19 58:11

59:2 60:2

62:2 63:13

64:14 65:2

65:14 66:6

66:16,20

68:8 70:20

80:1,7 81:12

85:14,17

86:5,11

87:18 88:4

90:16 94:6

95:4 100:5,6

100:11 103:6

103:8,11

104:10 108:6

115:8,17

117:19

125:18

128:21

129:12,15,17

130:20,20

132:3,11

134:10 137:2

137:22

138:13 139:3

144:19 146:7

146:10 149:5

149:22

150:13,13,18

150:21

151:14 153:7

153:13 155:5

155:10,22

156:2,11

157:1,3

158:10

161:11,11

163:22

171:12

173:22 174:5

174:7 178:7

178:8 182:3

186:15

188:22 189:1

189:15 195:4

196:22

197:20,22

198:2,3,3,5

203:4,18

204:12 205:8

208:2,3,5

209:4 211:10

212:22

213:15,19

215:13 216:4

216:13 217:6

218:2 220:11

222:1,10,12

222:15,18

223:2 224:2

225:7 226:10

226:10,13,15

227:1,16,18

229:7 230:3

230:6,10,18

231:3 232:10

232:12 233:8

233:11

234:17,18

235:8 237:9

241:12,15,22

242:9,16,17

242:20,22

243:2 244:13

245:11,21

246:10 247:2

247:3,8

249:18 250:9

252:13

255:20 256:2

260:2 261:7

263:17,22

264:3

rip 253:22

rises 234:15

rising 153:7,9

risk 24:19 25:5

224:19

road 232:9

ROBERT 3:6

rolled 162:13

roof 11:14

206:17

209:17

210:11

253:22

254:14,22

255:17

rooftop 25:21

28:7,11

104:6

room 1:13 4:8

104:15

118:18,22

121:10

133:16 194:8

195:19

244:22

253:17 265:9

ROSENQUIST

2:7 6:22 7:20

8:3 14:2

15:10,21

16:6,20,22

17:6 18:3

19:7,13,17

19:22 20:16

20:20 26:4

26:12 27:8

28:13,20

31:2,12 32:8

32:11,16

33:1 34:4

35:5 36:10

38:5,13

39:22 40:17

41:16 74:12

120:8,10

127:16,19

128:1,4

129:1,4,7,11

129:17,19

130:17,20

131:6,17

132:8,11,15

132:19 133:3

134:4 135:17

139:14

160:22

161:17 163:5

188:21

189:16

192:16

196:11 198:3

199:1 202:11

203:18 205:4

205:7 214:13

221:15,18

222:1,4,10

222:18

224:11

226:10,19,22

227:2,7,11

228:6,16,19

229:11

230:18 235:9

236:12 237:1

237:6,21

241:5,15

242:9,14,17

242:20 243:2

243:8,19,22

244:5 245:18

246:8,14

247:3,8

248:8,14,18

250:5,8,11

251:2,16

252:8,12

256:4 257:19

260:17 261:2

261:12 262:7

262:16,20

263:22

264:22

rotated 78:19
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

42

rotating

210:18

rough 107:10

roughly 95:11

100:1 174:7

235:22

round 156:9

158:15,16

row 144:18

151:16,17

152:1,1,17

152:18,19,22

rows 51:16

RS 202:17

216:9 222:11

225:13 226:5

226:9,12

RTU 16:18

rule 122:1,15

122:20

124:10 223:6

223:7,13

251:3,8,17

257:5,8

258:8 262:8

263:6

rulemaking

4:5 77:2

185:4 187:2

219:14

rulemakings

140:10

179:11

184:22

185:16 186:3

186:20

rules 124:9

153:16,19

185:5,12

256:8

run 43:14

159:22

running 23:11

168:1

Rusty 3:4 5:11

8:13 40:13

63:22 64:17

64:18 78:13

79:9 158:12

160:3 178:13

183:13

256:20

S

S 4:1 117:7,7,7

S.W 1:14

Sachs 2:20

5:10,10

14:18 16:15

16:17,17,21

25:10,10,17

37:12 38:15

39:10 70:8

70:12 114:9

114:9,21

115:3,19

116:17

140:14

159:13

178:10 188:3

196:3 197:4

202:7 212:12

214:4,14

224:17

233:20,22

249:5,7,8,8

249:18

252:14

safer 115:18

safest 9:8

safety 23:16

sales 52:22

53:20 85:11

98:9 106:16

108:1,1

same 18:10

37:4 40:14

40:17 46:16

47:22 53:9

53:11,12

60:11,11

62:7,19

63:12,15,16

63:21 64:9

64:13 65:7

65:22 66:8

66:12 67:5,5

68:17,18

70:4 71:1,5

72:1 73:5,20

74:3 76:9,9

79:7,22 80:3

83:15,21

92:19 94:18

102:3,12

104:22 105:3

110:2,6

112:20 115:7

128:22

137:22 145:6

148:11 155:6

158:3 167:2

176:17 199:3

200:11

206:12 208:2

213:12,14,15

215:5,6

216:5,22

217:1 222:19

228:11

230:14

235:11

239:20 244:9

247:10,16

248:19

250:15

251:22 258:5

258:7 260:7

260:12

263:12,12

Sami 3:7 5:15

sample 40:2,3

40:8,14,18

40:19,20

41:10 68:8

132:20

157:13 165:6

165:9 168:16

249:13

samples 41:11

42:2

sanitized 45:4

45:5

SASI 10:17

sat 167:16

saturation

196:18

saturations

196:14

SAV52:19

64:22 240:17

241:2,4

244:2 246:22

247:6

save 63:2,6

savings 14:7,7

14:8 15:18

26:11 29:3,4

36:17 37:9

56:22 129:20

129:22

130:11 156:3

171:11

172:11,16,21

198:21

saw 27:17

28:21 46:15

73:22 74:4

128:11

129:21

130:13 183:5

190:2 191:6

192:17 199:6

199:7 200:14

201:19

202:13,19

222:19

235:12

247:11,15

248:20 258:5

259:5,9

say 4:8 9:5

21:5 26:10

29:14 39:10

47:18 49:5

59:17,22

64:6,8 66:6

81:19 88:2

91:6,11,13

93:19 94:19

95:12 101:19

104:8 106:14

107:18 113:7

133:19 136:3

136:17

137:17 139:5

139:9 144:8

149:5,8,20

159:9 162:3

171:5 172:21

176:4 189:7

193:4 201:12

202:8 205:18

211:5,7,19

212:3 214:18

218:17 225:3

225:9 227:4

227:10 228:1

231:21 237:8

243:2 246:8

253:17 259:5

259:8 261:19

saying 10:18

21:8 24:22

35:13 46:1

53:8 56:19

58:19 65:11

72:9 77:8

92:20 109:20

116:15
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

43

146:14 169:8

169:11,15,20

171:6 173:8

175:18

203:15

212:10,21

215:3,16

217:15

222:22

227:20 232:6

241:1 255:1

255:2 256:5

264:3,6

says 25:4 83:3

106:18

204:16

221:21

228:19

232:18

253:21

scale 99:5,7

105:15

207:15

208:22

212:17

220:20 228:3

228:8,9,11

228:14,15

scaling 105:14

212:7 215:15

215:16

217:12,21

221:2

scatter 168:3

SCEER 122:2

scenario 78:17

99:19 131:3

225:9,10

scenarios

131:2

schedule 11:7

scrapped

254:1

screen 7:13,14

7:21 55:16

scribble

151:15

se 115:6

seamless

12:10

search 84:22

seat 187:21

second 30:7

33:21 67:18

102:10 120:5

120:18 123:2

123:22

142:14

177:11,12

182:2 211:4

244:15 253:6

section 238:16

sector 41:14

see 4:12 7:12

18:5 19:15

30:11 31:3

33:8 34:13

34:16 36:7

36:12 51:14

51:16 52:3

52:14 53:6

53:21 54:1,3

62:2 63:17

65:13,20,20

67:10,15

69:3,7 72:3

72:13 77:7

79:10 83:12

93:9,11 95:8

96:20 98:19

99:4,5 108:4

112:18

130:12

140:13 144:2

144:22 145:4

149:10 153:8

157:7,18

158:4 160:8

168:4 170:16

178:11

182:10,10

183:18 184:1

184:2 187:10

188:1 191:8

191:9 195:13

198:4 200:3

200:8 202:2

216:1 220:14

220:14 221:3

221:4,5,12

224:9,9

232:20

234:14 235:3

238:13

243:17 249:2

256:2,12

258:16,20,22

260:6,14

263:3 265:7

seeing 28:14

41:13 59:4

65:7 107:12

114:4 157:1

260:5

seen 114:12

189:19

select 24:18

86:20 90:19

95:1

selected 58:4

109:13

selecting

262:13

selection 54:1

sell 24:10

53:17,19

sell-up 24:13

selling 108:10

108:19

send 30:5

229:15

sense 37:21

38:16 56:2

61:21 72:18

81:5 84:8

92:11 104:18

114:20 134:3

167:6 178:22

179:1 181:1

208:21

218:14 227:8

251:1

sensitive

45:16 48:6

159:10

sensitivities

141:9 187:6

sensitivity

143:20 144:7

167:11 169:2

175:9,21

178:11 180:4

sent 35:15

188:8,13

sentence

136:7

separate 37:17

133:20 135:8

138:11

157:21

separately

166:20

series 179:16

served 134:19

service 37:14

38:20,22

41:12 196:4

197:6 234:11

249:11 256:9

services 160:1

session

237:15

set 8:7 16:18

17:13 69:19

76:13,15

89:3 90:1,2

105:3 125:15

125:16 134:9

164:20

208:15,15

209:6 232:19

setting 185:4

settle 40:12

settled 142:17

seven 194:22

195:7 211:14

seventh

191:12

several 124:11

134:19

154:16 204:8

254:22

sewing 87:13

share 13:6

16:14 27:21

27:22 133:1

193:16,18,19

shared 48:1

259:15,18

shares 98:3,6

sharing 204:7

shaving

150:19

she's 163:1

sheer 37:2

shift 152:16

shifted 16:4

258:18

shipment 90:6

90:14 109:14

116:9 120:4

186:20 193:9

193:12

shipments

28:5,6,11,16

85:13 88:5

90:5,6,14

116:8 119:21

120:1,11,14

120:15,17
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

44

131:10

191:17

192:21,22

196:5,7,12

196:15,17

198:8,12,16

235:19 236:2

249:1,2

251:3,6

265:3

shipped

115:21,22

shipping

108:5,5,9

112:21 113:2

113:3,9,11

115:6 128:11

128:15

216:16

short 88:1

188:14

195:19

shortcoming

198:4

shorter 124:17

125:1 131:4

should 7:21

27:8 33:21

46:19 47:5

59:1 70:6

106:21

127:20 130:7

130:11

136:22

142:15 148:5

151:13,18

158:14,14

160:18

164:15 169:3

171:5 177:8

182:9 185:15

186:16

190:11

191:21

201:12 212:3

212:5 215:15

225:5 227:2

230:5 242:15

249:16

251:11

257:12,15,16

258:21 264:6

shouldn't

83:10 186:15

207:15

213:17

215:16

217:15

show 45:7

48:4 51:1,7

113:3,18

156:10

163:21 165:5

170:9 172:18

181:8 182:21

showed 28:10

51:10 213:11

246:20

showing 26:2

26:4 50:13

51:16 63:3

72:9 103:6

107:17,21

112:21 156:2

165:12

182:21

shown 13:19

18:20 27:9

80:19 124:8

180:3 182:16

243:18

259:16

shows 2:21

5:12,12 13:6

15:20 19:7

28:1,5 29:2

33:16 47:15

52:9 103:6

156:20 167:2

220:1

shuts 144:4

sic 70:18 94:9

149:11 161:1

183:16

244:14

255:21 257:8

260:15

side 4:12 8:2

45:21 75:1

82:6 111:11

129:12 140:9

156:13,18

158:20

172:17,17

180:17

188:14

sides 210:17

sign 118:5

signal 166:21

208:16

significant

13:6 23:10

28:10 53:17

70:14 145:2

172:8 194:12

206:3,18

209:14

222:14

261:13,13

263:10

significantly

15:14 35:9

114:13 259:5

similar 22:5

63:12 69:7

78:2,20

105:4 123:10

155:12

165:13

176:11

236:16

259:19

similarly 52:9

141:22

simple 114:11

167:19 260:8

260:8 261:9

261:9

simpler 148:22

simplify

148:13

simply 36:21

123:19 124:7

simulate 70:20

simulated 45:8

simulation

71:7 164:22

simulations

141:11 166:9

169:17

179:21

since 10:8

43:1 44:8

86:18 99:15

111:16

120:22 156:8

157:14,15,16

172:9 181:10

239:2 257:12

258:13

Singer 87:10

87:11

single 112:3

175:5 178:16

180:6,7

204:1 238:13

238:19

241:17,21

246:10 262:4

263:4

single- 246:1

single-stage

204:2

single-zone

246:3,7

sit 34:8 182:4

232:22 233:5

sites 85:4

sits 29:13,14

sitting 187:4

situation 81:4

120:20

situations

97:3

size 44:3 54:15

76:10,17,18

78:20 79:3

88:3,15

89:10,15

90:1,18,21

91:1,6 92:6,8

92:19 93:3,5

93:10 94:14

94:15,18

95:8,12

96:14 99:1

102:3,9

103:11,22

104:5,13,16

109:7 113:18

114:18

128:18 129:7

131:4 209:3

209:4 213:12

213:14,14,15

213:22 215:6

216:6 217:1

249:12

size-increas...

91:18

sizes 77:13

90:5 93:17

97:2 99:4

102:6,8,12

102:15 104:9

113:16

114:15

143:11

skip 160:7

slap 39:5
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

45

slide 12:18

14:22 17:3

19:7 26:5

27:9 31:6,7,7

32:4,6,21

33:8,16,18

50:19 90:18

99:10 109:18

144:15,16

159:1 167:2

175:1 181:19

190:22 191:4

191:8,9

199:7 221:12

221:16,19

250:2,17

260:18

slides 11:3

50:22 85:16

99:12 141:1

160:8 191:13

213:11

258:22

slightly 142:12

143:1,12

165:17

188:16 189:4

189:4 217:1

236:11 259:3

slogan 38:17

slopes 73:15

slow 147:1

SMACCNA5:9

35:11 80:17

130:22

188:12

192:13

196:10

203:12

207:21 209:2

219:19

220:10 236:5

251:13

small 16:18

29:9 75:15

89:14 90:7

90:11 95:22

99:2,16

102:5 104:12

105:1,13,22

129:20

132:20 133:1

135:6,8

140:3 142:1

142:22

144:11

162:22

168:13

175:14

smaller 13:17

37:19 60:8

74:14 93:21

94:11 95:8

98:9 112:5

131:4 134:1

212:22

215:18

smallest

115:22

smoke 209:19

smooth 157:9

softness 197:6

soil 161:13

solar 140:17

sold 77:3

solely 202:4

solid 168:6

solution 232:4

solve 154:13

some 8:14

11:12,19

13:11,16

15:4 19:5

20:4,10,13

22:18,19

42:9 43:18

43:20 44:3

44:13,19,21

44:22 45:1,4

45:19 46:10

46:10 47:11

62:3,8 70:14

71:14 72:3,4

72:19 73:22

74:1 80:13

81:20 82:5

84:7 85:16

88:22 89:2

90:22 96:17

97:1,2 102:6

103:17 104:2

109:5,12

120:17 124:8

125:8 126:2

128:1,6

134:9,12,20

136:2 138:20

139:3 141:5

143:7 145:16

147:1,18,19

148:15 149:4

149:11 157:2

157:16

158:20

159:14

160:19 166:9

169:13

172:15

178:20 180:4

180:22 184:5

184:7 191:20

193:17,18

196:5 197:17

198:1,11

204:5 205:13

212:10 215:4

220:17

226:19,21

227:8 229:5

229:6 231:2

232:4 237:11

239:15,16

245:7,16

255:15

256:20

somebody

61:17 140:14

180:8

somehow 4:19

166:9 197:18

217:21

someone 18:4

20:15 42:4

89:3 119:5

238:5

something

16:11 21:15

22:5 23:12

25:18 31:13

42:5 47:1

48:6 53:1

61:18 75:15

82:13 83:10

83:10 92:19

94:18 95:13

97:15,18

124:16

133:19 135:8

136:5 137:7

138:19

141:16 158:8

159:15 169:4

170:4 184:4

185:20

204:15

213:22 220:7

221:8 226:8

226:14 231:7

231:17 238:7

249:16 265:3

sometimes

11:11 24:18

67:9 81:21

116:7 187:1

somewhat

58:20 164:10

232:9 239:2

somewhere

73:17 136:3

144:14

153:14

219:15

soon 9:21

100:19

187:16 196:2

sooner 30:2

120:1

sophisticated

71:9 97:10

108:11 147:6

229:7

sorry 29:21

31:7,18 32:2

32:18 66:4

75:17 99:12

116:18 118:8

118:17 152:7

152:12

161:13

162:20 163:5

188:6,11

192:3 193:10

201:11 208:4

212:15,19

236:19

237:16

242:11

252:12

sort 9:1 18:18

19:10 21:6

21:10,11

22:17,17

24:11,22

37:20 48:8

60:11 61:13

72:19 83:17

83:19 98:15

102:11 105:5

105:7 106:22

126:2 131:18
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

46

134:6,9

143:9 145:4

147:21

148:10 157:8

164:6 166:8

175:18

176:10,20

180:4 191:18

200:8 214:7

217:18 226:6

229:3 241:16

sorts 25:1

Sound 256:3

sounds 40:6

85:17 101:8

137:21 195:2

219:17 221:8

224:18

226:19

246:12 256:2

source 191:1

226:13 238:7

239:8

sources

196:13

south 166:3,3

166:4 234:5

South-Atlantic

166:2

southern

132:1

space 111:2

133:17

span 89:20

131:5 179:21

193:3

speak 4:8,10

4:13 20:1

30:20 31:16

137:18

204:22

speakers

11:10

speaking 4:12

29:8 179:14

196:6 235:22

262:12,16

speaks 145:5

222:22

236:12

specialized

133:8

specialty

222:14

specific 43:15

59:19 125:22

206:1 209:9

209:12

220:11,12,13

223:10 224:3

231:15 236:8

236:9 241:6

241:7

specifically

46:1 204:16

207:9 208:10

222:3,3

238:8 240:22

253:14

specifics 40:3

208:13

specify 262:2

speed 72:1

109:21 155:8

155:21

162:11

243:12 247:5

247:7

spend 11:7

30:2 56:16

70:1 229:16

spending

221:9

spent 142:9

spinning

151:1

split 53:7 54:9

spoke 20:1

120:20

spot 20:13

78:3 82:22

194:5

spread 170:9

226:4

spreadsheets

184:22

square 95:9

173:19

square-foot

95:12

squishiness

198:11

squishy 181:1

stacked

115:12,13

stacking

115:15

STAFF52:22

stage 54:1

55:18 69:5

73:18 123:2

142:21

175:22 176:6

244:11,15

staged 52:19

52:21 53:12

54:6,10

63:16 65:21

66:1 110:5,9

110:17

199:17,20,22

243:13

stages 52:17

72:4 110:16

110:18

122:21

244:15

stainless

12:10,14

13:14 19:14

21:21 24:17

24:18 26:17

stake 136:2,15

136:18

stakeholders

126:3 183:18

183:22 184:2

184:6

stamina 101:2

standard

19:11 28:22

28:22 29:1

29:10,11

34:18 86:13

86:16 122:3

123:1,13

125:4,13,16

125:17

126:12,13,17

198:1 209:17

210:20

standards

23:16 28:4

28:15 87:17

89:13 126:14

158:17

176:16 257:8

258:3

standpoint

198:10

stands 102:2

224:6

Starr 2:22 5:6

5:6 17:2,2,15

17:18 38:11

41:9 52:18

52:18 53:5

53:13,18

55:14,14,21

56:6,10,19

57:9 58:17

59:3 62:14

62:14 64:4

65:11 66:3,5

66:20 67:10

68:1,1,12,18

69:3 71:11

71:20 72:15

77:6,19 79:8

79:22 83:7

86:2 92:4,22

96:12 100:3

100:7,8

106:11

107:15,22

108:18,22

133:5 134:12

135:10

145:15,16

146:5,8

148:12 150:7

150:13 160:5

161:11 162:9

162:13,16,21

163:13 169:7

170:8 171:4

172:12 173:7

173:15

177:18

180:10

189:12 197:8

207:13,18

208:1,7,14

211:2 212:21

214:17 215:8

215:15,20

216:8 217:11

217:20

218:16 219:8

220:8,18

225:1,11

227:10,22

228:7,17

229:14 231:1

231:9,21

232:8 236:16

244:7

start 4:14 8:11

42:20 91:7

96:18 103:5
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

47

119:8 127:19

182:4 214:19

235:2,5

239:19

255:16

257:17

start-up 214:8

229:15,15

started 7:11

83:17,22

187:21 245:5

starting 14:4

94:10 96:1

103:21 116:6

212:18 225:6

starts 103:7

203:15

216:16,18

Stas 2:5 5:16

5:16 8:18,18

state 182:11

statement

24:12

static 57:10,13

58:2,4 59:6

60:6 68:13

68:17,21

145:18

148:20

160:11 161:4

161:6,10,12

162:11 163:9

180:16,20,21

188:13

215:14

219:10,19

statics 161:20

station 162:19

stats 235:10

status 43:1

statute 10:2

125:16

statutory

184:11,18

185:19

stay 43:11

131:7

stays 68:18

steady-state

71:13

steaks 136:19

steal 191:9

steel 12:7,9,10

12:10,12,14

13:10,14

15:9 19:6,9

19:14 20:9

21:12,21

24:4,12,17

24:19 26:17

27:10 32:21

32:22 210:7

Stein 238:6

245:19

stenotype

266:5

step 95:17

106:21 107:4

120:19

Stephen 3:17

6:10

stepping 62:1

steps 96:8

214:7

stick 81:12

102:3 148:16

sticking 203:3

still 9:16 13:10

14:12,19

29:9,13,17

36:14 46:12

53:16 54:8

80:3 87:11

88:15 124:6

145:17 151:8

152:15

155:21 187:2

202:15 205:1

212:5 217:13

236:18

244:18 246:1

246:16

255:19

stimulation

71:9 184:17

stock 79:19,20

86:13 162:2

196:14,18

197:20,20,20

197:22 198:1

198:5

stop 203:10

262:5

stores 254:22

story 88:1

149:10

188:15

straight

192:20

straightened

189:5

straightforw...

264:8

strategy 9:21

strictly 73:7

110:3

strike 154:6

strikes 114:10

137:17

stringent

123:2,22

study 238:17

239:3 242:1

244:8 245:8

245:11,17,19

246:18

stuff 38:20

71:14 72:18

116:10,16

219:2,11

229:10

250:22

254:12

sub-class

133:18

subject 20:21

88:8 90:22

95:19 182:11

222:20

submit 194:6

submittal

75:22

substantial

25:19 85:6

222:12

substantially

170:7 245:11

substantive

120:11

succinct 93:15

93:17

such 92:7

104:1 129:20

209:18

sudden 78:8

suggest 33:21

149:3 231:14

249:9

suggested

238:2

suggests

223:4 246:21

suing 87:14

summarize

117:15

sun 234:14

super 245:2

suppliers

109:6

supply 57:11

78:7 111:1

188:14

210:13 244:9

supplying

111:1

support 6:16

34:18,19

89:10 210:7

256:7

supporting

256:8

supposed

58:20 75:16

sure 21:1

35:20 38:3

55:6 58:13

60:20 62:11

67:4 70:3

73:5 84:2

90:16 93:1

95:17 100:13

101:2 103:13

114:11

119:15

138:10

149:16

184:16

198:17 231:9

231:11

240:12 241:9

256:17 262:4

263:14

surface 11:21

12:2 26:19

94:9

surprise 216:3

surprised

215:2 216:1

surprisingly

115:3

sweat 163:17

sweep 254:22

switch 77:5

78:8

switched

65:12 79:11

141:21

switching

77:21 78:6

79:12 80:4
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

48

93:5

system 57:2

59:5,6,10,10

62:17,18

63:1,6 64:6,8

64:21 65:13

66:7,7,12,13

70:17,21

81:14,18

83:14,15

84:4 132:13

141:21 156:7

162:7 163:12

166:13 175:5

188:8 229:12

238:13,20

241:17,22

246:1,2,3

systematically

94:21

systems 57:14

57:21 67:1

238:9 245:13

245:14,21

T

T 117:7

TAB 189:2

table 10:4 13:2

18:4 36:12

45:13 47:15

55:20,22

74:4 92:13

112:21 122:7

122:9 125:7

127:5 136:5

151:12

153:13,14

168:14 197:7

201:5 216:15

240:3 256:1

264:7

tables 47:10

51:10 69:19

182:17

tag 4:19

tail 141:13

take 10:3 30:9

30:12 48:10

49:1,16

52:12 58:12

62:10 64:20

67:3 81:2

92:5 100:14

100:21 141:2

154:15

155:18,19

164:3 171:5

177:8 182:15

187:13,15,21

195:6 228:4

231:14,16

239:20 240:7

245:18

249:17 252:5

taken 60:22

117:6 128:12

191:1 266:5

takes 60:16

67:12 122:16

184:10

189:21 231:4

taking 33:4

39:14 48:15

62:1 65:16

123:14

130:10 177:5

241:20

245:13

talk 42:9 46:20

46:22 91:9

100:19

119:20

135:20 137:8

138:7 185:5

190:18 196:1

203:11

208:16

218:22

241:12,14

talked 23:1

82:16 98:7

133:9 160:11

192:15 203:9

210:11,17

222:19 238:5

talking 29:9

75:2 82:11

83:2 110:22

112:3 121:3

162:10

190:21

196:12

205:10 219:3

219:9 227:6

229:4 238:11

240:13 241:8

talks 12:18

90:18

target 51:21

52:3 55:8

67:14 110:16

targets 52:5

task 197:13

tasking 219:5

Taylor 190:18

238:3 245:20

team 45:6

139:11

142:17

Techlor 70:18

technical

114:11 256:7

technician

229:18,19

technologies

4:19 159:20

technology

93:4

Ted 5:19 48:13

tell 39:17 54:9

62:4 104:21

204:6 211:22

223:14 231:8

telling 99:15

189:2 211:17

tells 36:5

temperature

73:7,12,19

74:7,17

110:2,13,14

111:1,2

133:16 144:5

164:17,20,21

165:1,1,2

166:10

167:13,20

174:15

232:17 242:4

244:9,22

temperatures

51:17 141:15

167:6

ten 176:5

198:12

247:14 251:9

251:19,20

252:6 253:21

253:21

ten-minute

30:10,11,12

187:16

ten-ton 205:7

tend 81:19

102:7 143:12

150:7 164:11

181:8

tended 206:20

207:1

tendency

245:1

tends 143:1

168:11 193:4

tenth 191:15

term 116:19

235:10

terminal 57:8

256:10

terms 25:11,22

33:15 38:11

77:1 107:11

121:8 122:18

131:19

180:18

194:12 200:3

217:16 218:8

218:13,13

253:2

Terzigni 3:1

5:8,8 35:10

35:10 80:16

80:16 130:21

130:22

131:16 188:7

188:11,12,22

192:12,12

193:1,12

203:12,12

204:5,20

205:6,9

206:13 207:7

208:6,8

209:5 214:2

216:14 217:3

217:8,18

218:3,3

220:3,9

221:20,20

222:2,5,13

223:8,16

224:2 225:2

233:21 236:4

236:4 239:19

251:12,12,21

test 45:8 51:20

60:19 68:14

70:7 71:2

81:3 82:7

110:4 134:22

153:18 154:9
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

49

157:21 158:7

158:15

tested 20:9

81:3,4,10

82:4 83:5

139:6

testing 67:6

85:1 238:14

Texas 166:3,4

text 190:3

than 14:14,15

21:17 22:2

27:15 33:12

35:7 36:13

40:4 55:9

57:3,13 58:1

61:22 64:7

69:15,17

74:9 84:18

92:18,21

96:5 101:19

104:2 105:10

110:11,13

111:20

114:13 123:2

123:22

124:17

125:19

131:14 132:1

133:12 135:5

135:12

139:18 148:4

148:16

154:12 156:3

170:6,7

172:2 176:1

177:20,22

196:8 204:11

205:2,13

208:19 210:6

211:10 212:1

212:6 213:2

214:12 216:2

220:7 228:20

229:1,13

251:22

252:20 253:1

255:4 257:13

259:5,11,12

261:6 262:9

265:2

thank 6:11

9:13 11:12

16:21 28:19

30:12,22

32:12 47:7

49:21 50:11

51:4 62:13

67:18 71:10

72:10 101:14

104:17

114:21 115:4

116:17,22

117:4 127:6

127:12 128:3

136:12 152:3

159:12

174:17

179:13

183:10,11

187:12,17

189:9 221:17

249:18

264:17

Thanks 17:6

37:13 131:16

152:4 173:15

177:17

189:14

Tharp 3:4 5:11

5:11 8:13,13

40:13,13

63:22,22

64:17,17,19

78:13,13

79:15 158:12

158:12

178:13,13

183:13,13

256:22

that'd 154:1

themselves

6:14 38:2

45:16 82:17

137:19 225:3

239:9

theory 66:10

85:1

thereafter

187:17 266:5

therefore

39:19 143:13

210:8

thereto 266:12

Thereupon

117:5 265:12

thermal 16:7,9

22:4 24:1

27:11,16,21

27:22 128:16

thermostat

200:8 214:6

thermostats

201:16

235:11

thick 75:21

thing 13:19

26:8 37:8,16

40:22 46:16

49:5 55:11

56:13,14

57:6 59:5

64:19 70:2

71:12,14

77:1 83:8

86:2 92:22

106:2,12

110:6 113:1

114:10 115:7

115:22

118:10,12

135:2 138:11

142:11 143:2

149:15

154:12

155:12

167:18 171:5

171:6 172:12

181:11

200:11 206:8

214:18

218:16

222:19

225:12 230:4

231:2,14

232:1 238:15

239:10

245:10

247:10

259:21 260:7

260:12

things 8:22

15:11 41:13

53:22 72:20

73:10 81:13

100:18 102:2

103:22 104:8

119:16 126:7

127:4 141:6

142:7 143:19

149:13

154:14 160:6

160:10

179:12 182:5

182:6 184:13

184:15,21

196:8 197:9

203:7 209:18

209:19

219:10,21

225:18

245:15 254:7

255:14

261:19

think 7:13 9:16

9:17 10:11

10:12 11:18

16:3,10 19:5

20:13,14

22:17 37:22

38:11,21

39:4 41:10

41:13 42:3

42:11,11

45:13,20

46:2,9,12

54:2,18,20

54:22 56:2

56:10 58:5

59:3,16 60:3

61:2,11 62:4

62:9,12,20

63:1,6,6,7,11

64:4,5 66:3,5

71:12,13

74:22 75:16

75:17 76:21

80:9,14 84:3

84:7 85:19

87:16 95:4

95:17 100:15

100:18

101:13,15

105:12 107:1

114:2 118:11

119:20 120:2

121:4,7,8,18

123:20

124:15 125:7

125:9,22

126:6,8

127:4,14

133:7,9,19

134:7 136:8

136:19 137:2

137:6,16

140:6,20

142:8 144:9

147:17 148:5

151:9 153:19
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

50

153:20,21

154:4,4

155:12

156:15

158:13

159:16 160:1

161:22 162:5

163:20

164:13,17

165:12

168:22

170:12 172:7

174:13 177:9

177:20,21

179:6,10

180:3,7

181:1,6,17

181:19 185:9

185:15,18

187:4,6,8

188:20

189:12

194:20 195:4

196:7 197:9

197:11 208:5

209:1 211:13

211:21 212:7

216:9 218:8

218:11,13

219:6 220:7

220:18,19,20

221:7 222:13

225:12

228:21

230:12,20,22

231:6,14,15

231:18 232:2

232:5,12,19

233:4 234:19

236:15,16

237:14 238:6

239:19,21

242:7 244:11

245:7,20

249:15,19

252:15

253:16

255:19 256:1

256:1 258:19

262:14,21

264:7

thinking 30:10

66:13 70:11

121:5 138:13

138:20,20

172:15

178:12 242:6

third 4:5 85:10

thorough

101:13,16

thought 29:14

53:5,8 59:17

84:16,19

89:7 100:3

109:7 126:5

135:11 136:7

136:17

138:17

139:18

160:11,14

167:11

177:21

178:14

184:13 192:8

228:17 229:3

229:22

232:16

thoughts

105:8 148:15

thousand

211:8

three 8:6 10:7

38:8 50:22

91:19 92:2

125:9,21

180:13 191:7

198:4 224:4

234:5

three- 78:21

three-quarter

163:18

three-quarte...

75:21

three-quarters

163:15

three-year

124:6

throw 44:18

thrown 207:4

thumb 182:22

183:2,9

223:7,13

thumbs

182:18,18,20

182:20,21

183:4 186:7

thunder 191:9

thus 90:12

97:12 98:5

Thybar 75:10

108:15

tight 105:16

tightly 105:15

til 191:8

time 8:4 11:7

12:5 17:20

18:1,11,15

19:3 20:7

23:1,10 28:2

30:3,21

31:19 32:4

43:7 47:10

49:17 56:16

62:11 69:22

89:14 106:18

107:6,8,9

111:22 112:9

113:10 124:6

124:6,15,17

125:1 137:18

140:20 143:3

144:15,21,22

147:4 149:6

150:15

153:11 154:5

172:14

183:17,21,22

184:12 185:6

185:8,22

186:1,6

195:19

210:20

214:10 221:9

229:18

235:12

247:11

248:20 253:1

261:17,18

timeframe

124:5 249:17

times 77:20

124:8 141:17

143:10

189:20

225:14

tiny 141:14,19

141:19

tip 254:13

to-do's 41:22

today 4:20

7:15 11:10

13:12 24:5,6

24:8 28:18

32:17 77:4

117:16 120:8

120:14,15

137:20 182:4

187:5 188:2

196:2 262:18

together 48:9

102:12

137:10 138:2

197:22

216:15

told 192:9

211:19

tomorrow

28:18 97:18

117:15,16

120:9,10,15

231:18

232:19 233:1

234:1,22

235:6 240:6

251:9,11

263:1 265:7

ton 43:3,16

89:15 95:6

97:5,5,5,6,6

99:6 103:5

103:16 116:5

153:4 156:21

163:1 165:12

170:13

203:15

204:13 205:4

205:19 208:2

211:5,14,21

211:22 212:5

212:22 213:2

213:12

214:12 216:1

223:7 227:9

227:12,12,12

227:12

228:18,20

229:2,13

230:8,9

252:17 260:3

tonnage 193:5

204:9 205:14

211:12 215:5

215:8 217:9

224:13

tonnages

146:8,9

176:14

232:13

tons 17:10,11

111:15,17,21
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

51

112:11,14

114:8 115:6

116:1,1,4,11

116:16 190:6

190:12,12

192:18,19

199:13

200:12,19

201:20

202:12,14

204:2 211:11

214:20

216:18

223:14,22

235:16,16,17

243:3 247:11

259:3 263:8

263:12

took 81:9

91:16,21

122:22 123:1

123:3,13

141:11 142:2

188:17

245:19

top 84:13 96:4

98:20 125:3

152:1,18,20

152:22

166:12

209:17

top-level 50:14

topic 148:10

148:11

topics 11:1

tops 94:15

Toro 3:11 5:22

6:8 221:11

221:17

total 25:15,21

27:3 151:9

153:6 157:7

161:3,10,12

165:15

168:18 170:1

170:22 171:3

171:8,10

176:12

193:19

195:10,11,12

195:14

203:22 204:4

260:2,4,15

totally 162:20

totals 165:3

touch 84:20

touche 252:11

252:11

tough 139:1

tougher 207:5

toward 158:15

trade 150:15

trade-off

114:22 156:6

trading 137:14

trailer 113:5

113:12 116:5

116:19

Trane 4:21

6:16 26:22

39:13 53:10

66:22 77:9

77:11,12

79:18 85:8

93:13 134:16

179:8 249:15

253:11 264:1

transcription

266:6

transition

233:20,21

translate 37:3

treating 175:4

treatment

174:20

trend 62:3

73:12 102:10

103:6 202:2

220:14

trends 44:3

58:13 61:7

72:19 105:6

trial 28:21,22

29:10,11

tried 165:8

238:3

trigger 113:19

206:18

triggers 209:9

209:12

triple 47:12

219:5

trivial 25:17

trouble 14:19

165:10

true 71:7 138:3

161:7 212:15

212:16 266:7

trusting 62:3

try 43:22 60:17

61:21 97:9

135:13

136:11 138:1

138:2 158:8

265:2

trying9:2,13

29:18 39:19

44:4 55:21

56:2 82:12

92:5,8,10

127:4 132:16

133:20

135:11,13

148:13,16

149:17,18,19

149:20

152:10

159:17 167:8

167:10 185:1

196:16

214:14

217:13,14

252:15

TSCs 256:19

TSL 29:3

TSL-3 29:15

206:12

TSL-4 29:14

29:15 130:15

206:11

TSLs 181:17

TSO-2 40:12

tube 94:9

tubes 27:4

tuned 43:11

turn 11:4

36:16 56:22

135:19

turned 123:12

tweak 149:11

149:13,14

twice 122:19

211:12

twist 60:18

two 11:22 12:3

15:10,11

17:16 32:22

37:19 42:4

55:22 75:13

84:11 85:9

89:5 90:13

91:4,7,9,15

92:1 104:20

105:8 112:14

119:16

121:10,21

122:1,12,18

122:21,21,22

124:2,2,3

137:10 138:7

141:8 143:19

155:6,9

159:11 164:9

167:1 170:21

176:1 177:5

177:7 180:13

184:15

193:14 194:6

196:13

197:21

208:15 213:5

229:16

237:15

244:15 253:1

253:1 258:4

264:11

two-stage 72:4

123:13

252:18

type 12:10,10

27:10 61:14

94:9 104:6

112:4 132:4

162:8 163:11

190:1,15

200:1,9

214:6

types 12:8

40:8 131:19

134:20

154:17 163:4

typical 57:3

63:7

typically63:1

64:20 209:13

209:14

typo144:13,14

U

U.S 84:16

131:22

Uh-huh 154:21

UL 5:12

ultimately

87:21 127:3

226:5 237:12

unanimous

183:6

uncertainty

177:15,16
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

52

179:6,20

unchanged

129:16

153:18

unclear 166:15

understand

23:22 33:19

35:1,12 36:9

39:20 77:7

108:20

116:14

197:12

223:17

226:17

240:13 246:5

263:14

understandi...

62:8 89:11

97:9 137:9

249:21 264:2

unfair 93:19

unfortunately

120:19

126:21 130:5

144:12

194:17

uniform 172:9

unit 11:14

25:21 44:3

51:12,15

52:9 56:8,9

59:16,19

60:14 63:5

63:15,18

64:2,21,22

65:10,12

77:17,22,22

78:3 79:11

79:11 83:12

85:2 88:20

90:2 92:17

92:18 95:22

96:6 98:21

99:5 102:22

103:7,15

104:4 106:3

128:18 129:8

131:4,4

132:7 143:7

143:8 145:12

153:4,6

154:1,20

155:19

156:21 158:2

158:3 159:20

161:16 162:2

163:11

170:10,11,14

172:15 176:9

199:14 203:7

203:15,19

204:2 205:7

208:2,15,16

209:10,14,17

210:4,5,6,8,9

210:13,14,16

211:8,9,10

211:12,20

212:22

213:13,15

214:1,22

215:19 216:2

216:5 224:3

224:3 225:20

229:1,2,8

252:17 254:1

254:2,15

260:3,12

263:19

unitary 128:14

253:18

United 4:18

units 13:7,10

13:12,16

27:16 35:13

35:18 55:13

56:13 58:3

58:15,19

60:10,12

62:5,7 63:11

63:21 65:21

65:21 66:18

76:1,4,10,16

80:2 85:13

89:11 98:12

103:18

107:17 108:5

108:10

109:19,22

113:5,6,11

113:16,19

115:21

116:16 131:5

133:11

134:13,20

140:15 143:4

159:17,18

162:7,8

163:2 164:16

172:15 175:4

175:11 176:1

176:5,7,8

198:7 204:17

210:18

216:16 226:4

248:1 249:12

252:19 260:5

260:14

263:19

universe

116:15

unless 31:15

42:4 180:8

226:8

unnoticeable

142:4

unpredictable

164:10

unusually

73:21

update 8:20

12:19,20

15:15 111:16

258:9

updated 12:8

13:1 31:20

updates 11:4,6

11:17 14:3

42:22 135:20

189:17

updating

13:21 27:14

upgrade

206:17

upon 74:17

81:21 130:7

190:22

197:14 200:8

207:16 227:8

228:4,8

236:2 242:1

251:7 259:1

upper 55:20

175:22 176:6

upshot 217:14

upstream

189:4

usage 155:9

use 21:16,18

21:20,21

22:21 23:12

24:5,6 37:1,5

37:6 40:4

41:3,5 43:5,9

56:20 57:2

63:18 68:6

69:22 71:22

87:3 93:4

100:18

109:15

131:18,20

132:1 135:20

141:1 144:11

147:13 151:8

157:5 158:2

159:18,19

160:16 161:3

164:13,16

165:4 168:11

168:18 170:1

170:17,22

171:3 172:1

175:13

176:13

189:21 190:1

196:9,13

199:10 202:9

208:15

225:13 259:4

259:11

user 255:13

users 39:15

94:5 133:7

uses 56:20

57:2 63:4

103:1

usually 225:16

254:14

Utilities 5:3

utility 66:16,16

245:12

V

validation

161:8

value 17:12

29:12,13

35:22 65:9

66:11 69:8

130:6 196:19

197:3 249:3

250:12

values 8:15

36:12 108:2

130:6 145:22

178:20

259:20

van 116:12

variability

170:20
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

53

variable 54:7

65:8,14 66:1

84:5 109:21

155:8,20

161:4 163:8

190:10,13,20

201:2 238:10

238:12,19

241:20

243:12

245:22

246:17 247:5

247:7 258:16

258:18

variables

229:8

variance

205:20

variation

59:18

variations

61:10

varied 131:3

varies 211:13

variety 159:20

various 12:8

51:18 123:6

vary 59:19

202:19

224:13

256:13

vastly 155:9

VAV52:11,15

52:21 53:16

54:4 55:13

56:8,15 57:6

57:11 59:5,6

59:8,10 60:7

62:18 63:1,5

63:6,17 64:6

64:22 65:9

65:13 66:7,7

66:12,16,18

67:4,14,21

68:11 69:5

109:20

112:16,16,19

114:13,16

115:2 145:6

161:7 171:2

172:14 190:6

199:20 201:6

201:7,9

214:11

240:15,21,22

241:12,14

242:12,13

245:14,15,21

245:21 246:6

246:7,10,22

247:1,4

258:13

vendor 75:20

82:18

vendors 43:21

75:13 82:18

84:12,15,21

84:22 85:3,4

ventilation

142:3

verify 61:20

version 77:22

142:18

178:11

212:11

versions 46:7

149:11

versus 37:18

58:6,6 61:9

65:8 73:6,12

79:3 85:12

131:12 156:7

186:13

210:20,22

227:21

230:10,11

250:21

252:16,18

253:1

vertical 168:11

vetted 183:20

via 122:3

view 58:18

167:1

virtual 187:21

volume 51:15

52:3,7,8,19

52:21 54:6,7

54:10 55:17

57:13 59:7,9

60:5 62:17

63:4,16 64:2

64:7,21 65:8

65:8,21,21

66:1,1,13

67:6 68:6

113:2 161:3

161:4 163:8

163:8 190:10

190:10,13,14

190:19,20

199:14,15,17

199:18,18,19

199:20 200:1

200:15,22

201:2,3

238:9,10,12

238:18,19

241:10,21

244:10

245:13,22

246:4,9,16

246:17 247:5

258:12,15,16

258:17,18

vote 136:14,22

137:4 138:15

177:8 182:9

187:6 189:10

233:14

voted 186:7

189:12

VS 110:15

W

wait 42:10

191:8 192:11

251:11

waiting 89:5

258:20

Walgreen's

255:12,13

walk 121:9

Waltner 3:5

5:13,13 15:6

15:6,19 26:6

26:6 29:19

29:21 31:5

32:10,12,18

59:14 60:9

62:13 101:21

101:21

102:21

103:19

104:10,17

105:4 173:16

174:17

236:18 237:3

237:10,16,20

want 10:1

20:12 23:12

37:13,16

38:3 40:7,11

40:21 42:9

42:10 45:12

46:16 47:4,5

48:12 52:12

62:21 66:21

70:1 72:12

91:1 100:13

101:2 102:3

106:2 116:22

119:11 121:2

127:9 136:6

136:13 137:8

138:1,2

147:3,5

149:20

152:13 153:3

174:18 186:4

187:15

198:17 202:8

203:10

204:22 206:8

208:11

219:22

220:13 231:8

232:15,17,22

237:10

240:12

247:21 254:7

258:11

260:11 261:2

262:4 265:6

wanted 49:5

74:12 77:5

100:15

119:17,19

120:12 153:3

182:2 214:4

240:19 254:6

wants 220:10

warm 29:16

33:22 38:6

128:5,7

135:18 256:8

warmer 245:4

was.26 76:12

wash 35:7,8

128:21 129:3

washers

122:21

123:11,12

256:11

Washington

1:15

wasn't 58:14

83:2 156:22

163:10 186:4

204:22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

54

207:12 208:8

208:9 245:5

water 75:15

162:7

watt 51:9

wattage 45:7

46:6 48:4

69:6 74:4

wattages

51:18

watts 52:15

wavy 8:21

way 9:19 63:20

68:17,20

74:13 81:3

82:2 83:11

93:16 96:4,4

98:22 108:2

114:13

115:18 116:3

148:15,21,22

149:13,14

150:14

154:13

164:15 175:7

175:10,12

177:6 197:15

197:16

199:22

202:10

204:22 209:1

228:11

237:11 240:5

245:8

ways 154:16

212:10

we'd 60:20

119:4 239:20

we're 8:3,8 9:1

9:13 12:9

29:9,22

30:16,17

38:3 40:18

50:4,5 54:1

55:5 59:4

65:15 67:2

72:9 74:5

88:19 95:14

96:1 97:20

98:17 105:21

108:16,17

112:1,1

113:2 117:4

117:10,10,15

120:2 121:5

121:9 127:4

127:13

132:15,21,21

138:19

143:21 145:9

147:16,20,21

149:4,12,17

149:18,19

152:10

156:19

157:14,15,17

159:10

160:21,21

161:9 170:19

170:19 172:4

173:5 175:3

175:5 176:19

180:11 181:6

184:20 185:1

185:9,11

187:2,4,17

187:22,22

188:1,3

193:14,22

196:16,18,20

196:21 197:1

199:9 201:20

201:22

202:15 203:3

205:10,20

206:2 210:21

220:20 230:1

230:15,16

231:7 233:18

235:9 238:11

240:13

258:19 260:4

265:4,6

we've 10:14

42:3 43:20

44:2,20

60:13,22

61:4 70:3

75:5 89:16

94:21 95:4

98:5 120:11

138:20

143:17

150:14

161:22 180:3

180:3 182:4

184:20,21,21

187:5,5

194:13 206:3

233:9,11

253:14

255:22

wearing 38:21

weather 207:3

web 85:4

webinar 3:9

30:21 183:8

Wednesday

1:6

week 11:19

28:21 120:22

121:1 128:11

129:21 130:8

130:14,16

190:2,17

191:5 192:9

192:17

195:20 199:6

199:7 200:12

200:14

201:19,22

202:13

203:10 243:5

243:20,22

247:15,22

256:5 258:6

259:6,16,18

261:6

week's 191:14

238:2

weekend

220:1

weekends

210:22

weeks 10:8

89:6 121:10

weighs 41:13

211:9

weight 114:18

202:16 203:5

206:14,16

207:8,10,11

207:16,19

208:10

209:13,13

213:4,14,22

216:13,16

217:2,12,21

218:7,8,13

218:14

220:20,22

221:2 227:12

227:13,21

228:4,8,15

228:20,21

weighted

17:11 19:4

38:12 168:19

256:15

weighting

164:7,8

169:14

weights

112:21 165:7

168:16 217:3

welcome

113:21

Wendy's

255:12

went 16:5 31:9

31:19 32:14

46:17 78:16

98:21,22

115:11

122:21

139:19,21

141:17

213:10

236:22 238:2

239:3 241:6

256:18

West 166:1,3,4

Western

254:20

Westphalen

2:8 7:1,1

41:19 42:17

42:19 46:5

46:19 47:2,8

48:3 49:4,19

50:8,12,21

51:6 52:20

53:2 54:18

54:20 55:4,7

55:19 56:4,7

56:12 57:5

58:12 59:2

59:11 60:13

67:13,19

68:9,16,20

69:9,14

70:13,22

71:4,8 72:3,8

72:12 73:4

74:20 75:20

77:16 78:11

79:1 80:12

82:8 84:10

85:15 87:20

89:9 92:11
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

55

93:8 94:13

96:10,20

99:18,22

100:6,11,17

101:6,9

105:2,20

106:7 107:13

107:16

108:12 109:9

111:3,6

161:21 213:7

246:19

what-not

218:6

wheel 151:1

where 13:6

16:2 21:6,11

21:19 23:2,9

24:16 30:11

32:14 39:21

63:5 68:14

70:19 76:4

77:13 78:7,9

78:16,18

81:15 91:7

92:6,15

95:20 98:21

98:22 103:17

103:21

125:10,22

126:13

127:13

130:14

131:18 132:2

132:4,21

133:21,22

134:2,10

135:12

144:15 145:3

145:5,10

146:15

156:21 165:7

167:12

170:14

181:19 182:4

184:4,10,18

184:21 185:1

187:4,7,10

189:5,6

199:16 201:7

236:22

241:13

246:20

wherever

221:1

whether 8:15

34:13 45:14

45:21 48:21

71:14,16

94:10 95:4

126:18

129:14

130:13

142:15

143:22 162:6

166:21

169:12,13,18

170:10

171:17 190:9

191:21

192:10

208:17 237:9

237:10 238:9

239:7,8,10

260:20

whip 187:21

white 14:20

Whitwell 3:6

4:18,18 7:9

15:2 22:14

22:14 24:5

24:14 25:2,6

25:9,15,19

33:6,6 34:15

34:21 39:7

41:6 42:7,15

45:18 46:9

46:14,21

47:7,21

48:10,16,19

49:10,13

53:14,14

54:12 57:15

57:15 58:11

59:21 62:9

63:10 64:12

65:3,6,15,19

66:4,15 70:7

70:10 71:18

85:19 86:6

86:16,20

87:2 88:12

88:13 89:5

101:11,11

102:18,18

103:4,20

104:11 105:9

105:18 106:5

109:5 110:21

110:21

113:22,22

117:11

118:17 119:3

119:7 135:22

136:16,21

137:4,12

138:3,10,17

139:1,5

151:20

152:14 154:7

155:2,18

156:14

158:19

185:13

207:17,19

208:4 209:1

213:9,19

214:3 215:6

215:11,13,17

215:21

216:12,22

217:5,10

218:1 229:5

231:6 234:6

235:2 237:8

237:12 240:1

240:7,9,10

240:10

241:11 242:5

242:10,15,18

242:21 243:6

243:17,21

244:2,6

246:6,12

247:6 262:11

262:11,18

264:15

who's 235:3

whoa 249:5,5

whole 45:15

47:18 48:8

76:19 135:13

138:6 169:14

183:15

212:20

225:22

253:12 254:6

254:14

wholistically

159:17

whom 122:7,8

122:8

whomever

25:8

Whoops

145:14

wide 256:6

WILKENFELD

111:4

willing 181:4

Wilson 3:13

6:9

win 37:1

windows

140:16

winner 37:7

132:4

winners 36:6

36:14 132:3

Winningham

5:4,4 28:8,19

94:7 105:11

152:7

wish 9:11

222:10

within 76:15

158:10

177:15 185:9

227:16 236:8

Wolf 3:21 6:19

6:19

won't 9:3 11:7

43:3 54:9

132:5 148:9

wonder 253:5

wondered

42:8 217:11

wondering

18:4 102:16

140:4 217:19

244:19

Woodford

3:14 6:9

worded 220:14

words 57:9

65:12 80:2

83:13 108:4

161:12

171:10 221:1

221:3

work 8:4,5,7

38:21 57:12

59:7 60:16

70:17 89:10

121:10,13

147:1 149:1

150:2 158:15

160:19 171:7

171:7 193:7

197:22
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

56

204:16

210:15 231:4

249:9,11

worked 21:15

69:15 121:11

172:3 204:12

223:11 224:8

working 1:2

5:22 30:22

57:12 72:6

144:1 156:13

156:17

169:13

170:15,16

171:12

219:22

244:16

248:22

works 20:18

37:11 166:22

world 212:20

worried

186:10

230:15

worrying

143:15

worse 170:16

179:18

worst 225:9

worth 48:15

109:8 143:15

150:12 165:9

198:5

wrong 47:11

81:7 83:13

170:5,6

201:11,12

212:19 226:8

232:15

X

X 77:10 86:3

93:10 105:13

Xing 2:11 6:17

Xu 2:11 6:17

6:17

Y

Y 77:10 86:3

yeah 15:21

19:17 25:17

30:4 32:3,18

34:4,17 35:3

38:13 42:11

46:9,19,19

47:2,2 48:17

49:4 55:1,9

59:11 62:4

86:16 87:20

88:22 99:22

103:4,20

105:9 124:4

125:21 128:6

130:17 132:8

132:15

135:10,16

138:10,17

147:9 148:1

148:2 152:22

160:17 164:4

171:20 172:9

172:20,22

173:14

184:20

185:18 192:7

192:16

193:10

195:21 197:9

205:6 216:8

217:3 223:8

226:22 227:5

231:5 237:20

247:8 250:8

255:9 257:19

259:7 260:17

261:12 262:7

262:18,20

year 56:18

84:18 122:16

122:17

124:15 156:9

159:21

191:12,14,15

247:13,19

250:7,8,9

years 17:10,10

35:14,19,19

36:16 37:18

130:3,7,10

140:11

192:17,18

193:3 198:12

198:19,20

247:14

251:20,20

252:2,6,7

253:22

255:18

years' 198:5

yep 67:19

69:13 138:12

217:7 246:13

248:17

yesterday 4:20

yet 8:21 10:4

33:16 121:6

184:1 237:2

York 234:21

young255:11

Z

Zendah 3:7

5:15,15

zero 87:18

167:22 169:3

170:12

zone 238:13

238:20

241:17,22

246:2,10,11

0

01 108:7

05 75:14

219:15

1

1 25:13 33:11

55:8 69:5

75:15 76:14

92:1 99:20

100:1 112:15

142:21

162:16

163:14,14,15

176:20,22

199:16 201:3

212:18

263:19 264:3

264:4,9,9

1,000 191:6

235:16 260:5

1,320 216:17

1,400 214:22

1,500 73:17

1,692 69:8

1,703 216:18

1,750 235:16

260:13

1,920 69:4,6

1.15 188:17

1.25 145:19,22

160:14 161:9

188:21

1.3 145:18

1:30 100:21

117:3

1:35 117:8

10 25:13 31:7

54:18,22

55:1,2,10

89:17 96:11

97:5 206:2

238:20 242:2

247:19

255:18

10-year 254:18

10,000 206:10

10,895 260:4

10.6 52:3,4

10:13 30:14

10:35 49:21

10:36 50:2

10:50 49:21

100 25:22

56:16 81:16

110:2 133:14

134:13,17,18

134:21,22

180:19 243:9

244:12

100,000 84:18

85:2 87:19

88:2 108:5

1000 1:14

1033 40:19

165:6

11 32:6 181:21

11.6 52:8,12

11.7 171:15

11:03 50:2

115.6 69:14

12 37:5,8

39:16 55:9

89:17 97:5,6

99:6 102:19

103:5

12.45 62:19

12.49 62:18

12:24 117:5

12:30 100:21

100:22 101:5

101:7

120 229:19

13 92:18 94:15

181:21 250:7

250:8,9

13,122 257:10

13,139 153:9

13,727 153:9

13.2 67:14
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

57

13th 191:13

247:19

14 95:9

14.5 153:8

15 17:5,10

35:19,19

44:15 48:15

49:6,16,17

111:16

112:11 115:7

143:6 144:12

145:19 146:2

151:5 159:5

190:12

192:18 193:3

198:12

200:11

201:20

202:14

211:11 213:5

213:13

216:18

227:18

228:18 230:2

230:10

235:16 243:3

247:11,17

253:18 255:1

255:3 261:21

263:12

15- 228:11

252:4

15-ton 43:3

48:2,20

51:11 102:20

103:12

111:12 145:2

159:4,5

165:17 211:7

211:9,20

212:1,6,17

213:3,13

216:2,6

221:2,4,5

227:21

228:21 229:1

229:13

240:14

246:21

260:12,18

15,000 88:2

15.8 153:8

16 33:18

198:18,20

17 89:18

102:21

103:16

264:13,15

170-square-f...

103:1

18 130:4

263:21 264:4

264:10

18-year 17:13

180 78:19 81:1

19 263:21

190 99:6

1990 86:22

1990-1995

87:4

1995 87:1

1999 198:8

1st 122:17

2

2 18:12,13

32:20 52:11

55:8,16

75:16 92:3

108:7 110:19

112:16,18

146:3,5

163:9,14

176:21

180:14

199:16 201:3

244:14

259:12 264:4

2,000 73:17

76:16 205:19

2,087 32:4

2,262 32:7

2,264 216:19

2,400 204:12

205:4 223:7

2,500 204:3

2,800 56:1

61:19

2,900 211:14

2.5 107:5,9

114:12

143:10 161:3

163:3 199:21

201:3 259:10

259:11,11

2:46 187:18

20 1:6 17:10

35:19,19

37:19,20

51:3 89:18

95:12 98:17

106:16,18

110:11 114:7

116:1 193:3

198:19 236:1

241:10

247:22 248:8

253:18 254:4

255:4,6

20-25 174:10

20-ton 102:22

102:22

103:20,20

104:12,12

20-year 252:4

252:5 254:3

20.8 92:19,21

2000 88:16

2001 122:20

2003 132:22

2004 123:2

2007 123:3

127:2

2010 86:13,17

123:10

2011 122:16

2014 27:14

123:14,21

2015 1:6

139:12,17

2017 123:14

123:21

2045 139:21

20585 1:15

2062 31:10

20s 16:11

37:19

21 17:10 37:19

37:20 51:3

192:17

250:17

265:14

215 249:12

22 51:3 250:18

22.6 130:7

24,000 205:8

25 19:8 76:18

174:2 180:19

25-year 33:9

26 17:12 35:14

38:4,12

76:15,18

130:4 219:16

26-year 34:9

35:20 36:5

130:6

29 16:8,10

228:9

29.91 52:15

2940 21:17,20

22:1,5

2951 228:7

3

3 92:1 95:16

99:20 100:1

116:8,11

157:3 168:22

174:6 200:21

201:7,12

213:12

259:10,11

261:16

3- 85:20

3,000 203:16

3,100 55:18

3,400 211:11

3,600 55:18

3.5 157:3

259:10

3.6 256:13

3:00 118:15

210:22

3:07 187:18

30 17:11 99:10

99:16 105:1

107:5,7

111:21

112:13 115:6

140:11

145:19

172:14

173:12 174:7

190:6 192:18

200:19

202:12

227:18

235:16

242:11

247:11

263:12

30-some 37:18

30-ton 43:6,13

43:17,19

44:12,21

46:6 48:22

49:4 50:22

51:11 52:20

69:20 114:3

143:6,17
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

58

144:22 146:4

201:20

212:17,18,19

214:11,22

216:20

228:11 241:8

242:12,21

247:17

252:19

263:19

30-tons 44:16

261:14

30-units 61:3

31 88:5 98:14

316 12:10

13:16 19:9

19:15 20:5

21:16,17,21

22:2 23:8

24:4

32 95:22

33 17:11 37:18

177:20,22

178:1 192:18

330 32:22

34 17:11

192:18

35 105:1

145:13 146:4

146:9 166:10

36 95:8

37-square-fo...

97:4

37,412 257:9

38,131 257:6

4

4 29:1,3 55:18

67:20 161:4

200:16 260:8

261:18

4,000 235:17

4,400 211:6,16

214:20 221:3

4,514 212:18

4.2 170:15

4.66 256:15

4:30 265:1,12

40 28:11 116:1

243:9

409 12:10

13:18 19:8

19:10,13

21:16 22:21

24:4

43 129:5

44 129:5

214:22

4514 212:17

4630 216:20

5

5 17:1 25:13

29:4,11

106:19

110:19 116:8

116:11 166:1

169:10

199:22

200:16 216:1

230:13 244:1

261:3,18

5-21 120:3

5-ton 85:20

5,000 231:11

5,900 204:1

5.8 170:13

5:00 7:11

117:16 188:2

210:22

50 95:11 252:2

50-ton 252:19

50.6 18:10

50.8 17:22

50/50 54:3

500 32:19

52 182:17

54 182:17,17

55 29:4 130:14

130:15 166:7

166:14

167:16

244:13,19

55,540 257:6

58,950 257:5

6

6 96:8 135:5

140:10 166:2

256:14

6-ton 89:16

93:10 94:13

6,000 202:21

231:11

6,184 257:2

6.2 257:5

6.4 257:10

6.9 260:8

60 167:13,16

167:17,20

169:22

238:22

240:11 241:3

241:4 243:4

243:8

60-ton 114:4

61 240:12

62.6 33:9

63 114:7

65 166:15

167:16

67 241:6

243:13 244:5

244:6

68 169:14

7

7 17:9 43:3,16

44:15 48:1

48:20 49:5

51:10 76:14

89:15 95:6

96:8 97:4

111:11,15

115:7 116:4

116:4,8,15

143:6 144:12

145:1,18,18

146:2 153:4

156:21 163:1

165:12 166:4

166:4 170:13

190:11

192:17

199:13

201:19

202:13

203:15 204:2

208:2 211:5

211:10,14,15

211:20,22

212:5,22

213:1,2,5,11

214:12,20

216:1,15

221:1 227:18

228:10,18,20

229:1,12

230:2,10,10

230:11

235:15

247:11,17

252:7,17

259:2 260:3

261:21 263:8

7-ish 252:7

7,400 204:3

7,500 208:17

7,900 208:18

7.5 163:3

201:4

7.8 257:6

70 16:7,11

103:2 107:8

70s 174:15

7140 119:1

75 19:9 145:18

145:21

160:14 161:9

188:21

750 216:16

763 56:1

76FR 257:9

79F4 257:5

79FR 257:6,6

7th 117:17

118:20,21

247:13 265:9

8

8 89:16 96:10

97:5 166:4

168:22 169:8

169:10 257:7

8,760 74:16

8.0 257:8

8.9 257:3

8:00 117:16

118:15

210:22 235:6

235:7,7

265:7,14

80 12:11 13:9

16:3,4,7 24:2

27:10 32:5,7

54:4 98:20

106:17 107:1

116:3 129:1

129:2 248:7

248:7,11

260:5

81 12:11 13:9

16:5,9 21:5

24:2 27:11

27:21 136:4

136:22

138:20,21

82 12:13 13:15

14:6 16:4

18:19 19:8

20:7,8,9 21:5
Meeting May 20, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

59

21:8 22:4

24:1 27:11

27:22 128:16

129:1,2,5

82.6 138:22

85,000 88:4

8765 135:2

88 18:14

8E-089 1:13

9

9 16:3,4 31:6

32:4 33:20

168:22

9.1 166:5

9.2 166:5

9.8 54:19 55:2

9.9 54:19

9:00 7:11

210:22

9:15 4:2

9:30 235:3

9:46 30:14

90 78:19 103:2

116:3 186:11

90-plus 27:16

90.1 71:8

156:17 161:2

180:18

186:11,13

238:6

92 17:22

128:17 129:5

95 16:22 55:6

950 117:17

118:19 234:2

234:3 265:8