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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 FRAMEWORK PUBLIC MEETING FOR RESIDENTIAL

 REFRIGERATORS, REFRIGERATOR-FREEZERS, AND

 FREEZERS

 + + + + +

 MONDAY,

 SEPTEMBER 29, 2008

 + + + + +

 The Meeting convened at 9:00 a.m.

in Room 8E-089 of the Forrestal Building of

the U.S. Department of Energy, 1000

Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C.,

Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT:

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator

STEPHEN WITKOWSKI, Department of Energy

RON LEWIS, Department of Energy

MICHAEL KIDO, Department of Energy

ERIC STAS, Department of Energy

MICHAEL McCABE, Department of Energy

GREGORY ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National

 Laboratory

DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

CONSTANTIN von WENTZEL, Navigant Consulting,

 Inc.

HEATHER LISLE, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

JENNIFER THORNE AMANN, American Council for an

 Energy Efficient Economy

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

STEVEN BLANC, Baltimore Gas & Electric

BILL A. BROWN, General Electric

DEBRA K. BRUNK, Association of Home Appliance

 Manufacturers

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PRESENT:

LANE WESLEY BURT, Natural Resources Defense

 Council

STEVEN C. CHURCH, Whirlpool

KELLEY KLINE, General Electric

SEAN MACKAY, Whirlpool

JOSEPH McGUIRE, Association of Home Appliance

 Manufacturers

EDWARD R. OSANN, American Council for an

 Energy Efficient Economy

STEVEN J. ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric

 Institute

PAUL SIKIR, Sub-Zero Freezer Company

JOHN TAYLOR, LG Electronics

BELINDA CARR, Energetics, Inc.

BRENDA EDWARDS, Department of Energy

RONALD FOSTER, General Electric

GREG HALL, W.C. Wood Corp., Ltd.

JACK HENRY-RHOADS, D&R International

JOHN HODGES, Wiley Rein, LLP

TIMOTHY McGRADY, LG Electronics USA, Inc.

STEVE POLINSKI, Miele, Inc., Regulatory

 Affairs, Product Development Group

CAROLINE M. TAYLOR, Association of Home

 Appliance Manufacturers, Manager,

 Government Relations

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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

Welcome and Preliminary Remarks . . . . . . . .4

Opening Remarks, Introductions, and Agenda

 Review, Doug Brookman . . . . . . . . . .8

Rulemaking and Analytical Methodology

Overview,

 Stephen Witkowski . . . . . . . . . . . 12

Stakeholder Opening Statements. . . . . . . . 20

Text Procedure, Detlef Westphalen . . . . . . 22

Market and Technology Assessment,

 Detlef Westphalen . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Screening Analysis and Engineering Analysis,

 Detlef Westphalen . . . . . . . . . . . 76

Preliminary Manufacturer Impact Analysis,

 Constantin von Wentzel. . . . . . . . .119

Markups for Equipment Price Determination,

 Energy Use Determination, and Life-Cycle

 Cost and Payback Period Analysis,

 Gregory Rosequist . . . . . . . . . . .122

Shipments Analysis, National Impact Analysis,

 and LCC Subgroup Analysis,

 Gregory Rosenquist. . . . . . . . . . .159

Manufacturer Impact Analysis,

 Constantin von Wentzel. . . . . . . . .179

Utility Impact Analysis, Employment Impact

 Analysis, Environmental Assessment,

 and Regulatory Impact Analysis,

 Gregory Rosenquist. . . . . . . . . . .186

Other Issues and Comments/Closing Remarks . .197

Adjourn

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 9:10 A.M.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good

4 morning, everybody and welcome. This is the

5 U.S. Department of Energy's Framework Public

6 Meeting for Residential Refrigerators,

7 Refrigerator-Freezers, and Freezers. Today is

8 Monday, September 29th. Welcome to all of you

9 and thank you for being here. 

10 I'm Doug Brookman of Public

11 Solutions, Baltimore. 

12 With no further ado, let me turn

13 it over to Ron Lewis, Supervisor for

14 Regulatory Affairs, DOE.

15 MR. LEWIS: Welcome, everybody,

16 today. Thanks for being here. I don't know -

17 - were any of you here last week for the

18 commercial refrigeration meetings? We're

19 having meetings on a pretty regular basis now. 

20 We're actually putting out documents and

21 rulemakings at about 12 times the pace that we

22 were just two and a half years ago, so we're

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1 using these rooms quite a bit, and I'm glad

2 you can be here. We've put a lot of work into

3 trying to get things together, and have a

4 presentation that will be a starting point

5 with refrigerators here. 

6 We hope you'll be giving us input,

7 dialogue, giving us your thoughts. We're

8 doing this to get your input, so we're glad

9 you're here, and we look forward to having an

10 engaging day, and you expressing your

11 viewpoints. And at the end of this, we will

12 have a transcript that will go up on our

13 website, and we'll have a comment period. If

14 you need some time to think about your

15 comments and get those into us, we look

16 forward to those, as well.

17 Thanks again for being here.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's our

19 tradition to provide an opportunity for each

20 person to introduce him or herself, so let's

21 do that now. And if you'd start by saying

22 your name and organizational affiliation,

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1 we'll just work our way around the room.

2 MR. OSANN: Yes, my name is Ed

3 Osann. I'm here with -- I work with the

4 American Council for an Energy Efficient

5 Economy, which is a nonprofit organization

6 that does the initial policy work on energy

7 efficiency. I'm actually also coordinating

8 stakeholder involvement, NGO stakeholder

9 involvement for the Applied Standards

10 Awareness project.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

12 Edison Electric Institute.

13 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with the

14 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers.

15 MR. McGUIRE: Joe McGuire, also

16 with AHAM.

17 MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline, with

18 General Electric Consumer and Industrial.

19 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with G.E.

20 MR. TAYLOR: John Taylor, LG

21 Electronics.

22 MR. CHURCH: Steve Church,

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1 Whirlpool Corporation.

2 MR. MACKAY: Sean Mackay,

3 Whirlpool Corporation.

4 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido,

5 Department of Energy, Office of General

6 Counsel.

7 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis, DOE.

8 MR. WITKOWSKI: Stephen Witkowski,

9 DOE.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen

11 with Navigant Consulting.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Gregory

13 Rosenquist, with Lawrence Berkeley National

14 Laboratory.

15 MS. LISLE: Heather Lisle,

16 Navigant Consulting.

17 MR. FOSTER: Ralph Foster with

18 G.E.

19 (Audience introductions.)

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 I anticipate that a few more people will be

22 joining us as they clear through security, and

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1 hopefully they'll get here soon.

2 All of you have received a copy of

3 the agenda for today, as well as a large

4 packet of information with the PowerPoint

5 slides that will be the basis of the

6 discussion today, or I should say, the

7 starting point for discussion, as well as the

8 Federal Register notice that accompanies it. 

9 So I'm going to just run through the agenda

10 here briefly.

11 I'm going to change the order

12 slightly. You see the second item that's

13 listed there, stakeholder opening statements. 

14 We're going to move that down two or three

15 slots, so I'm now doing the agenda review. 

16 Stephen Witkowski is then going to provide an

17 overview on the rulemaking analytical

18 methodology. At that point, following

19 Stephen's remarks, there's an opportunity for

20 stakeholders to make brief summary remarks,

21 brief opening statements about the issues that

22 matter to them. Following that, we'll have a

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1 presentation on test procedure issues. 

2 We'll take a break, mid-morning,

3 round about 10:30 or so. Following that,

4 we'll have a presentation followed by a

5 question and answer and comment on market and

6 technology assessment, and then screening

7 analysis and engineering analysis. 

8 We'll break for lunch round about

9 noon or 12:15 or so, and following lunch,

10 preliminary manufacturer impact analysis, and

11 following that, markups for equipment price

12 determination, energy use determination, and

13 life-cycle cost and payback trade analysis. 

14 And then shipments analysis, national impact

15 analysis, and LCC subgroup analysis. 

16 We'll break mid-afternoon, 3

17 o'clock or so. Following the break,

18 manufacturer impact analysis, utility impact

19 analysis, employment impact analysis,

20 environmental assessment or regulatory impact

21 analysis, and we'll close out the day with an

22 opportunity once again for any of you to make

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1 summary comments, any other issues you wish to

2 raise, that would benefit you to do so. So

3 that's the plan for today. Questions and

4 comments about that?

5 I see none. How many of you are

6 new to these kinds of proceedings? Just a few

7 of you. So most of the rest of you have gone

8 through this kind of process previously.

9 I'd ask for your consideration if

10 you would please, please speak one at a time,

11 listen as an ally. I'm going to ask that you

12 try and keep your comments on point and brief

13 as possible. If you need to have a sidebar

14 conversation with someone, please take it out

15 of the room. We'll understand. That will be

16 acceptable to us, but we don't want to

17 distract people. 

18 The acoustics in here are pretty

19 good. These microphones work pretty good, so

20 you can expect that what you say might end up

21 on the record.

22 We do have a court reporter here. 

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1 There will be, as Ron said, a transcript of

2 this meeting available on the website

3 following this meeting. How long does it

4 typically take?

5 COURT REPORTER: I can't really

6 say sitting here. You'd have to call our

7 office.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, a

9 couple of weeks.

10 If you would, please, turn your

11 cell phones on to silent mode so that they

12 don't disrupt what we're doing here.

13 You probably already found the

14 restrooms. They're at the end of the hall,

15 both ends of the hall. As we get to the

16 coffee break, we'll talk about other

17 housekeeping items, and I think that's all

18 that I've got. 

19 There are one or two individuals

20 that didn't get a chance to introduce

21 themselves. Why don't we do that now. Your

22 name, please?

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1 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with

2 Earthjustice.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 And I saw -- yes.

5 MS. THORNE-AMANN: Jennifer Thorne

6 Amann, American Council for an Energy

7 Efficient Economy.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, Natural

10 Resources Defense Council.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Did I miss anybody else? Please.

13 MR. von WENTZEL: Constantin von

14 Wentzel, Navigant Consulting.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so

16 then let's proceed. We're going to start off

17 then with Stephen making -- providing a brief

18 overview.

19 MR. WITKOWSKI: I'm basically

20 starting on Slide 6. This shows you what

21 we'll be doing today. You have all of this in

22 your agenda, and on the slides.

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1 And moving to Slide 7, the purpose

2 for the framework document public meeting, and

3 this is to present the procedural and

4 analytical approaches to evaluate energy

5 conservation standards for refrigerators,

6 refrigerator-freezers, and freezers; provide

7 a public forum for discussion of rulemaking

8 issues; and number three, encourage

9 stakeholders to submit added information and

10 written comments. The framework document

11 meeting is basically your first opportunity to

12 come together to discuss the issues, and then

13 provide information. We are basically seeking

14 information from the stakeholders at this

15 point.

16 Any comments on that? Yes, sir.

17 MR. OSANN: Is the slide deck that

18 was handed out in the foyer of this meeting

19 the same as was posted on the web earlier?

20 MR. WITKOWSKI: It should be very

21 close to it, the one that was sent out, and

22 yes.

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1 MR. OSANN: But there have been

2 some changes?

3 MR. WITKOWSKI: They're minor

4 changes, one I'm going to mention, and if you

5 need, if there are any updates, we will let

6 you know, and send those out, also.

7 Anything else?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay. Feedback is requested, and

10 here's the information as to how to get your

11 feedback to us. I think this is pretty

12 straight forward. You can do it by email, by

13 postal mail, or by courier. And the comment

14 period closes on October 20th, 2008. This is

15 where there may be one discrepancy. In some

16 of the earlier documents, I believe the date

17 was October 17th. The date is October 20th. 

18 That's also the date that is shown in the

19 Federal Register.

20 And background, I'm not going to

21 go through every detail here, because I think

22 you can certainly read this, and most of you

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1 are aware of the background, but we have the

2 Energy Conservation Policy Act that you all

3 know as ECPA of 1975, that established a major

4 conservation program for major household

5 appliances. 

6 Then in 1987 came the amendments

7 to EPCA, which established performance energy

8 conservation standards for refrigerators,

9 refrigerator-freezers, and freezers, and that

10 amendment directed DOE to conduct two cycles

11 of rulemakings for these products to determine

12 if more stringent standards are justified.

13 And then here are a list of

14 previous rulemakings, a final rule published

15 in 1989, rule correction affecting the three

16 product classes, a second round of final rules

17 published in 1997, analyses were published in

18 October of 2005 to support priority setting

19 for additional refrigerator rulemakings, and

20 then, of course, the Energy Independence and

21 Security Act of 2007, or EISA, which required

22 publication of updated standards by December

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1 31, 2010 to take effect on the first of

2 January, 2014.

3 And this is basically a brief

4 diagram of the process itself, and based on

5 the EISA requirements, you see that where we

6 have the green, that's the framework document

7 which we have put together, and then will come

8 the advanced notice of proposed rulemaking,

9 and concurrently, we're working on a test

10 procedure, new test procedure for the

11 products; then the NOPR, and the final rule.

12 Again, the agenda for today. 

13 We've been through that.

14 Okay, and then again, here are the

15 EPCA factors and the corresponding DOE

16 analyses, economic input on consumers and

17 manufacturers, lifetime operating cost savings

18 compared to the cost of the product, and again

19 on the right is the DOE analysis that takes

20 place for that particular factor. Total

21 projected energy savings, impact on utility

22 and performance, impact of any lessening of

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1 competition, need for national energy

2 conservation, and other factors that the

3 Secretary considers relevant.

4 Here is our timeline and

5 milestones. We're at the framework document

6 public meetings stage, obviously. And then we

7 will go through, and again, this is just a

8 timeline for what I showed you before, what

9 you saw before in the diagram of the framework

10 document ANOPR, NOPR, and final rule

11 processes.

12 And again, here's more information

13 about the framework document, and again, I

14 stress that this is primarily an information15 gathering process. This is where we are

16 looking for input from the stakeholders so

17 that we can consider that as we progress

18 through the rulemaking.

19 And again, the diagrams start to

20 get a little bit more complex, but all we're

21 doing here is showing the particular analyses

22 that are taking place during each stage of the

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1 standards, and at this slide we show the ANOPR

2 stage, the Advanced Notice of Proposed

3 Rulemaking, and the corresponding analyses.

4 This is my favorite slide, and I'm

5 not going to take any time to go through it,

6 because most of you have seen it, but I think

7 it shows the complexity that's involved in the

8 process.

9 And again, the purpose of the

10 ANOPR -- not again, but excuse me, the purpose

11 of the ANOPR public meeting is to present

12 methodologies for the ANOPR analyses, and

13 characterize the results, to discuss specific

14 issues related to the ANOPR analyses, again,

15 to seek input from attendees on methodologies,

16 assumptions, and data sources, and to describe

17 upcoming analyses in the next step, and to

18 seek further input.

19 The requirement for the ANOPR and

20 the rulemaking, EISA has modified the process

21 to allow waivering of the ANOPR stage. DOE

22 believes that the ANOPR is an important step

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1 in the process, and that it should be retained

2 in the rulemaking process.

3 Then we go to the NOPR, and again,

4 the corresponding analyses. I think the

5 diagram is self-explanatory.

6 And another one of these spaghetti

7 charts for the NOPR and the final rule. And

8 again, everything that we go through, the

9 entire process for each of these stages is

10 shown in these diagrams.

11 And the purpose of the NOPR public

12 meeting: to hear the views of the

13 stakeholders on DOE's proposed standard level,

14 and to obtain input on any remaining issues

15 relating to the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking,

16 the NOPR.

17 Then the analyses for the final

18 rule, Slide 24. And any comments at this

19 point?

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So this

21 would be the place for individuals, anybody

22 here present that wishes to make opening

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1 remarks.

2 MR. WITKOWSKI: Exactly.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So

4 let's do that now. Ron Lewis, before we

5 proceed with that.

6 MR. LEWIS: Just a clarification

7 that EISA 2007 allowed us to not do ANOPRs in

8 rulemakings, and the statement that Steve just

9 made was for this rulemaking that, in trying

10 to get things through the process, and in an

11 expedited fashion, we're still looking for

12 ways to engage the stakeholders, but also take

13 advantage of some of the provisions that

14 Congress has given us. So his comment was

15 only for this rulemaking.

16 MR. WITKOWSKI: Thank you for that

17 clarification. It's important.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So now is

19 an opportunity for anybody that wishes to make

20 brief summary remarks here at the outset to

21 emphasize an issue or two.

22 Debra, and please -- if you would

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1 please say your name and organizational

2 affiliation.

3 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

4 AHAM would just like to state its support for

5 continuing with the ANOPR in this rulemaking. 

6 We believe it's an important opportunity for

7 all stakeholders to discuss with DOE the

8 results of the engineering analysis, and the

9 preliminary analysis for the NOPR.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

11 Other remarks here at the outset?

12 Yes?

13 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with

14 Earthjustice. I agree that the ANOPR presents

15 an important opportunity for stakeholders. 

16 I'm just wondering if it might be possible to

17 do something that's similar to what you do

18 with the framework document where you just

19 publish the analysis on the website and make

20 it available, but don't actually publish the

21 entire thing in the Federal Register, if that

22 might speed up the process a little bit.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,

2 Jennifer?

3 MS. THORNE-AMANN: Jennifer Thorne

4 Amann, at AEEE. Just to add to Tim's

5 suggestion, I think that would work well as

6 long as there's a public meeting so we could

7 all get together and talk about the results,

8 and trade feedback on the results of the

9 analysis, but it may be just by eliminating

10 the full Federal Register publication process

11 that could save some time.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other

13 comments here before we get into more detailed

14 presentation?

15 Okay, I see no additional

16 comments. Then let's proceed with a

17 description of the test procedure and

18 opportunity for comment and discussion. 

19 Detlef?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thanks, Doug. So

21 I'll be starting my morning talking about test

22 procedures. I guess the document that was on

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1 the website kind of goes into much more detail

2 than we will be able to here, but hopefully,

3 we'll be able to highlight some of the issues

4 that a modification of the test procedure will

5 address, and as Steve mentioned, there is an

6 intention to start a process for modification

7 of the test procedure.

8 We're aware that, just recently, a

9 new version of AHAM-HRF-1 2008 version was

10 made public, and that's obviously one of the

11 topics and test procedure that I think now the

12 current test procedure might be 29 years out

13 of date, and that's certainly on the table for

14 modification.

15 Final rule was published modifying

16 a test procedure to incorporate provision for

17 some new long-time defrost units, an approach

18 to save some energy by allowing the defrost to

19 start, not when the compressor turns off, but

20 to wait a while to allow the evaporator to

21 warm up, and a modification was made with the

22 final rule March 7th, 2003. Now there may be

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1 some consideration given for other things that

2 might occur around defrost when some of the

3 newer units, which have electronic control,

4 they have capability to save energy in

5 different ways, or to utilize energy in

6 different ways. One thing in particular that

7 has come to our awareness is pre-cool prior to

8 a defrost. And that's something that we might

9 want to think about.

10 An exemption for automatic control

11 anti-sweat heaters was published on February

12 27th, 2008 and that's something that we would

13 consider bringing into the test procedure.

14 A couple of exemptions have led to

15 discussion of new product classes, one of them

16 for auto-defrost refrigerator-freezers with

17 bottom-mounted freezers with through-the-door

18 ice service, three exemptions. It's possible

19 that there's been another since the writing of

20 the framework document and this presentation,

21 but these are some of the key manufacturers

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1 defrost chest freezers for Electrolux,

2 September 13th, 2004. And consideration is

3 being given, and to some extent, this is

4 almost more of a rulemaking issue than a test

5 procedure issue, because it's establishing the

6 product classes. It's more of a rulemaking

7 issue. However, we're bringing it up here as

8 related to test procedure.

9 The electric refrigerator

10 definition was modified to specify temperature

11 level excluding wine coolers, and this brings

12 up the question of additional potential

13 product classes, and some of the comments,

14 requests for comments that appear later, and

15 appear in the framework document, talk about

16 whether that should be looked at a little bit

17 more closely.

18 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. Could you

19 just elaborate a little bit on exemption in

20 this context, what it means, what the process

21 is, what the outcome is?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: The process --

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1 I'm not aware -- I'm not as familiar with the

2 legal process involved with an exemption. 

3 However, these exemptions essentially allow

4 the manufacturers involved to manufacture this

5 product, and to have it test at an entry level

6 that is different from the typical energy

7 level associated, for instance, with a bottom

8 freezer.

9 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, Office of

10 General Counsel. Typically, the process

11 that's involved is to go through our Office of

12 Hearing and Appeals, and to submit information

13 justifying why a particular exemption should

14 be made for a particular product.

15 Typically, there's a fair amount

16 of information that has to be submitted to

17 them. They've got a separate procedure that's

18 located within 10 CFR -- I believe it's 1004,

19 and that details all the different

20 requirements that have to be met when

21 submitting requests for any kind of exemption.

22 Was there a particular question?

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1 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis. The

2 mention of exemption was that the products

3 listed there did not fit the product classes

4 that were previously published, and those

5 companies went to OHA and said, we don't fit

6 any of those categories, those product

7 classes, so we don't believe that we can test

8 to those product classes, and certify that

9 we're in compliance with those product

10 classes. So a separate product class was

11 established for that. It wasn't that they

12 were exempt from doing that. A new product

13 class was established for that. 

14 MR. OSANN: So what are the

15 operative test procedures for product that

16 applies for or gets an exemption?

17 MR. LEWIS: It's in the exemption. 

18 It's spelled out in the exemption from OHA,

19 and we can handle that offline, I think. 

20 There's a procedure --

21 MR. OSANN: There's an alternative

22 or a work-around or something that's provided?

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1 MR. LEWIS: It's because what was

2 in place did not have a product class that fit

3 these particular products that came out after

4 the test procedure was established. So --

5 MR. OSANN: But there is a test

6 procedure?

7 MR. LEWIS: Yes.

8 MR. KIDO: Just as an example,

9 Michael Kido. Just as an example, with

10 respect to those three exemptions that are

11 noted there for Maytag, well, actually two,

12 three, Maytag, LG, and Samsung, the Office of

13 Hearings and Appeals provided an exception for

14 these companies, but it came through the

15 energy efficiency equation that would be

16 required for each of those manufacturers. The

17 test procedure is still the same, so there's

18 no difference there. It's just that, if you

19 look at the requirements for that particular

20 product, you actually have to satisfy this

21 energy efficiency equation, and that equation

22 was adjusted to accommodate those three

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1 companies with that particular product.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's in

3 contrast to the second exemption, the second

4 bullet exemption listed there where a test

5 procedure, a modified test procedure approach

6 had to be developed in order to properly test

7 the product.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That being

9 auto-defrost chest freezer?

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. 

11 Yes. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sorry,

13 that's automatic control anti-sweat heaters.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Moving on in test

15 procedures, some work done by the National

16 Institutes of Standards and Technologies

17 showed that, particularly for some compact

18 refrigerators, there are some inconsistencies

19 in test results, and some of the items

20 highlighted in this work have to do with the

21 clearance in the rear of the unit. 

22 The HRF 1 procedure, which the

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1 current test procedure refers to, is not

2 specific in terms of -- not very clear in

3 terms of how much clearance behind the unit is

4 allowed, and often, the unit would be placed

5 in the middle of the floor, inconsistent with

6 how it would be used in an actual space. Some

7 of the updates of HRF 1 have specified

8 according to the manufacturer's instructions

9 as far as the clearance to the rear go.

10 That's something that reference to the

11 updated HRF 1 would resolve.

12 A couple of the other things

13 mentioned in that piece of work involve

14 tighter ambient temperature control and/or

15 temperature accuracy in the temperature

16 measurement, and there's one comment mentioned

17 in regard to the type of load used in the

18 manual defrost testing of units with manual

19 defrosts with the roll bond evaporator. So

20 those are some of the things that we would

21 potentially be looking at.

22 Circumvention of test procedure

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1 intentions. That's kind of been a hot topic. 

2 I think it's -- I'm not going to dwell on

3 that. I think a lot of people understand some

4 of the issues are essentially with

5 refrigerators that might detect when they're

6 in an energy test, and behave differently than

7 they would when used in the field.

8 Convertible bottom drawer

9 refrigerator-freezers tested, apparently in

10 Energy Star testing with the convertible

11 drawer operated as a fresh food compartment,

12 which is inconsistent with HRF 1, which

13 specifies use of the highest energy setting,

14 and that's something that obviously requires

15 a decision and/or some clarification.

16 Averaging of temperatures for

17 units with more than two compartments. There

18 isn't really any guidance given as to how the

19 average temperatures would be calculated for

20 two freezer compartments, and that might

21 become important if they might be two freezer

22 compartments of very different sizes. Then

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1 the Energy Independence and Security Act

2 highlighted standby energy use as something

3 that should be looked at with test procedures

4 and energy standards. And certainly that's

5 something that we're thinking about here. 

6 However, the nature of the refrigerator and

7 freezer test procedure is such that, for the

8 most part, it is our understanding that any of

9 this standby energy use would be captured. We

10 welcome any comments in regards to how there

11 might be some features that wouldn't be

12 captured.

13 One of the things that has come up

14 through some of the work, certainly on the

15 international front, is looking at the

16 compartment temperatures, and whether they

17 should be changed, and I think some of the

18 impetus for this comes out of the work going

19 on internationally, and a desire to provide

20 harmonization of test procedures so that

21 manufacturers can test some of these products

22 once rather than five times for each different

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1 country that they're selling in.

2 And so these are the temperatures

3 that are being adopted for -- as far as they

4 understand, for IEC 62552, and have been

5 adopted for AHAM HRF 1. This applies

6 primarily to Appendix A1, the refrigerators

7 and refrigerator-freezers, since freezers are

8 already tested at 0 Fahrenheit. The changes

9 are essentially fresh food compartments, which

10 are currently tested at 45 Fahrenheit, would

11 be tested at 39 Fahrenheit, and that freezers

12 and refrigerator-freezers which are currently

13 tested at 5 would be tested at 0. For an all

14 refrigerator, the current test calls for 38,

15 and that would be raised one degree to 39.

16 And we'll talk more in the

17 engineering analysis about what this means,

18 and how we're going to deal with it when it

19 comes to the standard. You know, as far as

20 the test procedure goes, this is a very

21 straight-forward change.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's take

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1 a question or two here now.

2 Steve Rosenstock.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. Steve

4 Rosenstock, EEI. Obviously, this could have

5 an impact on the future energy ratings, and so

6 what is the timing to finalize this test

7 procedure?

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's a good

9 question. We had not -- there's still some

10 questions remaining, some things that have

11 been unresolved, and to some extent, we have

12 been waiting to hold this meeting to hear

13 initial comments on a lot of these issues in

14 order to guide the process in moving forward

15 on the test procedure. However, the intent

16 would be --

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

18 MR. LEWIS: There are a lot of

19 issues. It's very dynamic, Steve, as you're

20 aware. So we chose to include this, even

21 though this is about the standard, this is the

22 framework document for the standard that we've

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1 chosen to bring this up now. We've got a test

2 procedure that we're reviewing and starting to

3 look at, revision of that to be in lockstep

4 with the standard. So we've brought it up

5 here at this point that the test procedure

6 certainly will be finalized before the

7 standard is, but we're doing it in

8 synchronization with that, and we're trying to

9 raise the issue earlier here so we can get

10 input.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, may I

12 follow up? Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Obviously,

13 you're talking about the ANOPR/NOPR and the

14 standard, and obviously the timing of the test

15 procedure could be critical in just the energy

16 analysis that you're doing, and all of the

17 other subsequent analyses just because these

18 look like significant changes. You're talking

19 about 5063s in some cases, and that could have

20 a significant impact on energy use profiles. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

22 Other comments about these two slides before

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1 we continue? Questions? Okay.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Just one slide

3 talking about bottom-freezer products with

4 through-the-door ice service. This is just

5 acknowledging some of the information that has

6 come out in regards to some of these units

7 that the DOE should be taking a closer look

8 at. As mentioned previously an exemption

9 established essentially establishing this

10 product class gives an energy allowance for

11 the through-the-door feature that's consistent

12 with top-freezer products.

13 However, the DOE energy test is

14 carried out with the icemaker turned off and

15 there is some evidence that energy use for the

16 products can be significantly higher than the

17 energy label when the icemaker is turned on.

18 Currently, DOE is investigating

19 this issue to understand the details of what's

20 going on here and what the discrepancies are

21 and DOE welcomes any information which will

22 enhance the understanding of that additional

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1 energy use with these products.

2 At this point we'll get into

3 request for comment --

4 MR. LEWIS: Another point of

5 clarification.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

7 MR. LEWIS: The phraseology on

8 that should have been, the icemaker should

9 have been inoperative, not turned off.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, yes.

11 So in this box on slide 31, you can see that

12 the Department of Energy specifically requests

13 your comment on five different things. Should

14 DOE revise its test procedure to measure the

15 performance of antisweat heater systems that

16 are controlled through temperature and

17 humidity sensing? Two, great combination,

18 wine storage freezer appliances and wine

19 coolers. Three, incorporate by reference the

20 most recent version of AHAM HRF-1 test

21 standard that includes revised test methods

22 for rating compact refrigerators. Four,

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1 incorporate provisions to prevent

2 circumvention schemes. And five, rate

3 convertible bottom drawer or refrigerator4 freezer models.

5 So comments on those items? Yes,

6 Steve first and then to Debra.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

8 EEI. I am too -- perked my interest a little

9 bit just because of the fact that a wine

10 coolers or wine chillers, there's different

11 descriptions of them. As I recall, they

12 actually have red wine coolers and white wine

13 coolers from what I've seen and there's

14 different temperatures, significantly higher,

15 like either 55 or 60 degrees Fahrenheit

16 depending on the type of wine you're cooling. 

17 So I guess it's kind of a bigger issue. Are

18 these products covered under this generic,

19 I'll say the generic umbrella of a

20 refrigerator-freezer. I know California has

21 efficiency standards for those products. It's

22 kind of a bigger picture. Are these products

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1 covered and if they are covered I think they

2 would have to have a separate test procedure

3 just because of the temperatures they put in,

4 the temperatures that they're set at are

5 significantly higher than what you're showing

6 here.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you

8 answer that?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: We haven't given

10 it serious consideration.

11 MR. LEWIS: You're asking for

12 information?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.

14 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

15 from Whirlpool. California's standard is

16 adopted at 55 degrees. It's also written into

17 HRF-1 to be interpreted in the same fashion as

18 California does and Canada also adopted the

19 icemaker standard to interpolate the same

20 temperature as California and the procedure

21 written in the AHAM document.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

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1 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

2 What I'll do is I'll just step through briefly

3 one through five. On item one, was the

4 performance of antisweat heater systems. AHAM

5 does support the incorporation of the

6 currently proposed test procedures. 

7 Basically, those are the test procedures that

8 have been in the granting of waivers. 

9 In terms of number two regarding

10 wine coolers, specifically which Steve Church

11 just referenced, we support inclusion of wine

12 coolers into the DOE test procedure, strongly

13 suggesting that DOE follow the California and

14 the Canadian procedures so that we have

15 harmonization between those test procedures.

16 In terms of wine storage and

17 freezer units which are also lumped into

18 number two, those are a little bit different. 

19 We would consider those to be hybrid units. 

20 We are not comfortable right now necessarily

21 with the procedure that is out there for

22 hybrid units. We do plan on addressing that

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1 in the next version of HRF-1, but do think

2 that there does need to be some work done on

3 that test procedure.

4 For item three, of course we

5 support incorporation of the most recent

6 version of HRF-1. Again, we just recently

7 published a 2008 version of that document. I

8 included in that document, as Detlef

9 mentioned, the temperature change which is

10 harmonized with the IEC standard. Also

11 incorporated into that document is a

12 simplified volume calculation method that does

13 have some impact on the maximum energy usage

14 levels. And finally, some additional

15 anticircumvention language that has been added

16 to that as well which leads me to point four. 

17 We definitely support DOE

18 incorporating provisions to prevent

19 anticircumvention schemes. Again, the 2008

20 version of the standard does, we feel, provide

21 clarification on those points. However, we

22 have submitted positions to DOE on this to

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1 make this modification hopefully sooner than

2 the 2014 date for this final rulemaking.

3 And then number five, finally,

4 AHAM does feel that the current standard does

5 address these bottom drawer models. 

6 Basically, these models should be tested under

7 multiple configurations and then as stated in

8 both the DOE and of course the AHAM

9 procedures, rated at the highest energy use.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So one

11 clarifying question. You said that the hybrid

12 units would be addressed in the new HRF-1 and

13 when would that be?

14 MS. BRUNK: That's a good

15 question. That would be something we would be

16 starting work on in 2009. I do not know how

17 that will work in parallel with DOE's --

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Will it

19 take a couple of years to put out a new --

20 MS. BRUNK: We did 2008 in one

21 year. So it is possible. I think if it was

22 something that we put a priority on, we could

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1 do it.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So thank

3 you especially for addressing all five of

4 those points. 

5 Additional questions, comments on

6 these issues? Yes, Kelley.

7 MS. KELLEY: I would just --

8 Kelley Kline from G.E. I would just add from

9 our company's perspective we would very much

10 support the AHAM comment on the adoption of

11 HRF-1, particularly as it relates to the

12 circumvention measures in advance of the final

13 rulemaking. And support as well things like

14 certification, certification programs for

15 energy efficiency products.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

17 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc with

18 Baltimore G & E.

19 We pretty much agree with AHAM on

20 the five points. I think that the points that

21 we're particularly concerned about, point two,

22 about the wine storage issue. We think that

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1 they need an expansion of classifications to

2 bring wine storage into the classifications

3 and make it more official.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Isn't that

5 what CEC has done?

6 Beyond that? So if you could be -

7 -

8 MR. BLANC: From my point of view,

9 you've got two kinds of wine storage. We've

10 got red wine storage which the gentleman over

11 there mentioned and you've got white wine

12 storage which is a different temperature. 

13 The wine storage freeze plants

14 I've never personally seen, but this, like a

15 lot of other things, has been proliferated. 

16 I think that one of the issues that we have

17 along with that is the proliferation of

18 different appliances. The bottom drawer

19 freezer food, fresh food type of storage unit,

20 we're concerned about, but we're also

21 concerned about the bottom drawer

22 refrigerator-freezers with French doors and

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1 through-the-door ice making because the ice

2 makers are in the door. And there is some

3 concern about how much power you're using

4 because of the ice maker being in the door.

5 I think the other major issues is

6 that we totally agree with AHAM about the need

7 for controlling circumvention.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

9 Yes, please, Bill.

10 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown from G.E. 

11 I represent the U.S. on the international test

12 procedure committee for IEC along with Dr.

13 Ashar. The changes we're making in the

14 temperature -- 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please

16 bring the mic closer.

17 MR. BROWN: I represent the U.S.

18 on the IEC Committee. The temperature changes

19 that we're making here are in conjunction with

20 the new IEC standard, not the existing one,

21 just to clarify. So they're changing their

22 test procedure as we're changing ours also.

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1 The other thing I wanted to make

2 sure that we understand is in addition to the

3 changes in temperature, how that will affect

4 the energy reading, the new HRF-1 has a

5 different method for volume calculation and we

6 need to make sure that that is incorporated as

7 well when coming up with new standards.

8 We went from 35 pages of how to

9 calculate volume down to two pages, making a

10 much simpler calculation where everybody can

11 get the same number instead of having

12 different interpretations for what's a

13 feature, what's a function, what's included

14 and what's not included, very simple and a new

15 procedure.

16 So again, that is that along with

17 the test temperature changes need to be

18 considered when coming up with a new standard.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Additional comments on Slide 31? 

21 Ed.

22 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. On behalf

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1 of ASAP I want to say that we're supporting

2 the expansion test procedures to include wine

3 coolers and, when you get there, splitting

4 expansion product classes to include wine

5 coolers. With regards -- I've got a question

6 that pertains to this item five. 

7 Was the exemption -- was the class

8 that was created as a result of the exemption

9 sought by Maytag, Samsung, and what was the

10 third one, LG, with the convertible bottom

11 drawer? Did that also -- was that also

12 particular for the French door configuration?

13 MR. MACKAY: That's not the same

14 product.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that

16 Sean speaking?

17 MR. MACKAY: Sean Mackay, yes. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Will you

19 just say it again.

20 MR. MACKAY: Sean Mackay with

21 Whirlpool.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

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1 MR. BLANC: I think you're

2 confusing separate issues of -- there's an

3 exemption for a bottom up French door

4 refrigerators. That's for units where the

5 bottom feature can be either a freezer or a

6 refrigerator and can be converted by the

7 consumer.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for

9 that clarification.

10 Other questions?

11 MR. OSANN: Yes, one other. I

12 wanted to raise the possibility that there

13 might be -- you might want to call some

14 provision test procedure to address the French

15 door configuration and the moving seal, the

16 center post retractable seal as an additional

17 feature.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Any

19 more comments on these five items, on 31

20 before we go on to 32?

21 (No response.)

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, now we're

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1 on page 32. I guess we have two items for

2 comment, one involving the temperature

3 changes. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So these

5 are rather specific. So if you could respond

6 to these it would be helpful to the

7 Department.

8 Temperature changes under

9 discussion for IEC standard 62552 that AHAM

10 plans to adopt. And then understanding

11 additional energy use associated with bottom

12 freezer, refrigerator-freezers with TTEC

13 service.

14 Steve Rosenstock?

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

16 EEI. I guess for item 1-3, based on the

17 slides, is DOE asking for a specific, just for

18 that type of refrigerator that it should be

19 tested with the ice maker on? I guess I'm

20 kind of unclear. Energy use for the bottom

21 freezer, TTD service, with the ice maker

22 switch on, okay, yes, there's more energy

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1 usage. It's a matter of -- does this lead to

2 a separate test procedure for each product? 

3 To me, it's not clear what DOE is asking for

4 in terms of actual test results in terms of

5 how much extra energy is used with the ice

6 maker or to have a specific test procedure

7 just for this product with the ice maker on.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

9 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

10 I will address item 1-3 first and perhaps

11 answer your questions, Steve, and then I'll go

12 back to item 1-2.

13 In terms of item 1-3, I believe

14 the AHAM HRF-1 2008 document does address

15 testing of these products in particular, but

16 all products. We have incorporated

17 definitions into the document around ice maker

18 harvesting, to try to get at some of the

19 different features regarding whether an ice

20 maker is active, inactive, that kind of thing. 

21 Again, I would say that's not specific to

22 these particular types of products. It would

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1 be applicable to all products manufactured. 

2 And therefore would not be a separate test

3 procedure.

4 Regarding item 1-2, again AHAM

5 would again support the movement to the

6 different current temperatures or the new IEC

7 standard, and again, the 2008 version of that

8 document already does have the new

9 temperatures incorporated. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that's

11 consistent with temperatures that are listed

12 on Slide 29?

13 MS. BRUNK: Yes, it is.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

15 you.

16 Additional comments on these

17 specific requests, item 1-2 and 1-3. So then

18 we're moving on.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: So moving on, I

20 guess in the agenda we had a break here, but

21 I guess we can continue on. Moving on to the

22 ANOPR analyses, bring up the slide that Steve

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1 showed earlier on the ANOPR analyses, we have

2 market and technology assessment, screening

3 analysis, and engineering analysis, perhaps

4 with a break in between.

5 First, the market and technology

6 assessment. Essentially, the purpose of this

7 piece of work is to characterize the markets,

8 get an understanding of what products are

9 being sold, what the industry -- characterize

10 the industry, what manufacturers are involved,

11 and then also take a look at the technology,

12 what's the current state of the technology and

13 where can the technology go to improve

14 efficiency?

15 The method involves identifying

16 the manufacturers, understanding a little bit

17 about them, how big they are, how many there

18 are, how segmented the market is, whether they

19 deal with niche products, etcetera. Estimate

20 shipments and trends in the market, look at

21 technologies, what's the current state of

22 technology, what are the technologies that can

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1 improve efficiency? And then also look at

2 some of the market and technical type of

3 questions associated with the regulatory and

4 non-regulatory initiatives which are intended

5 to improve the efficiency of the products such

6 as Energy Star, for instance, is an impetus

7 for efficiency improvement that is either in

8 addition to or outside the minimum efficiency

9 standards.

10 The relationship of the market and

11 technology assessment to the other analyses,

12 this isn't exhaustive. We can go back to that

13 very complicated, favorite slide of Steve's to

14 really get the picture here, but as part of

15 the market and technology assessment, the

16 product classes are identified and that feeds

17 into the engineering analysis where

18 engineering analyses are done specific to the

19 different product classes.

20 Also, the technology options

21 identified in the market and technology

22 assessment move on to the screening analysis

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1 where there is screening done to weed out some

2 that might not be appropriate to move into the

3 engineering analysis. Other information from

4 the market and tech assessment like the

5 shipment numbers and things like that feed

6 into some of the other downstream analyses.

7 Here we have a request for

8 comment. This basically points to some of the

9 information requests that we'll be sharing

10 with the industries, specifically through AHAM

11 to try to get some of this information so per

12 se it's not so much an opportunity for

13 comment, but certainly if there is comment in

14 regard to the approach on the market and

15 technology assessment now would be the

16 appropriate time.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve.

18 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc, PG&E. I

19 wanted to offer up for your consideration a

20 report that was done for us, a study for

21 standards options for residential

22 refrigerators. We had it done two years ago

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1 for the State of California. Obviously, we

2 would have gotten an exemption to change the

3 regulations there, but we would like this

4 considered by DOE.

5 I have an electronic copy if you

6 care, or we can send it in.

7 MR. LEWIS: Please send that in

8 with your comments.

9 MR. BLANC: Okay. Do you want an

10 email?

11 MR. LEWIS: Yes, to the address

12 was there so it goes into a docket, the

13 official record.

14 MR. BLANC: No problem.

15 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 Other comments on this item 3-1 at this time,

18 noting that others might come forward later.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: As mentioned,

20 part of the market and technology assessment

21 is defining product classes and we don't need

22 to dwell on what is an electric refrigerator

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1 and what is an electric refrigerator-freezer

2 unless somebody would like me to read through

3 that.

4 Freezer, essentially these are the

5 definitions that are in the CFR. And also

6 there are the compact refrigerators,

7 refrigerator-freezers, or freezers which are

8 less than 7 and three quarter cubic feet, less

9 than 36 inches in height.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any

11 comments on the definitions?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Equipment product

13 classes, I guess the bullet says DOE will

14 formulate a separate energy conservation

15 standard for product class. This is since

16 refrigerators have standards now and product

17 classes now, it's a little bit self-evident.

18 And the product classes which the

19 next few slides sort of list them out and

20 there isn't much change there beyond what has

21 been in the past. They've been divided up by

22 whether the product is a refrigerator,

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1 refrigerator-freezer, or freezer. The size is

2 a factor, the type of defrost, whether they

3 have through-the-door ice service, and then

4 for some of these product classes whether the

5 freezer is on the top, bottom, or on the side.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Questions?

7 MR. OSANN: On the previous slide,

8 the first two bullets, what's the distinction

9 between each product class in the first bullet

10 and each equipment class in the second bullet?

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: There probably

12 should not be any distinction there.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So product

14 classes and equipment classes are equivalent?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Within each

18 product class, there will be efficiency levels

19 considered as part of the subsequent

20 engineering analyses.

21 The proposed standard sized

22 product classes, these are the ten existing

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1 standard size product classes plus it is

2 proposed to add the two product classes that

3 have been defined with the exemptions that

4 were mentioned previously.

5 And the proposed compact size

6 product classes are the same existing compact

7 size product classes.

8 MR. OSANN: On 42, are the two

9 product classes that have been identified in

10 the exemption on this?

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, 19 and 20. 

12 Okay, so there are three items for comment

13 here. First on the proposed product classes

14 and the criteria used for establishing the

15 product classes.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Debra.

17 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM. 

18 First of all, I just want to say that AHAM

19 does support the 20 product classes that are

20 listed, including the two new ones. We do

21 suggest, however, the inclusion of two

22 additional product classes. This kind of

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1 moves into actually item 3-3, but we do feel

2 that product classes should be established for

3 wine coolers in which case you would have one

4 for manual defrost and wine coolers with

5 automatic defrost.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And since

7 we're on the subject, are you recommending

8 also differentiating between white and red?

9 (Laughter.)

10 I know my wife would, for example

11 --

12 (Laughter.)

13 MS. BRUNK: I don't know. 

14 Somebody else can help me out with that. I

15 would say no.

16 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

17 from Whirlpool. I think what we would support

18 is a process similar to what California does

19 presently where they turn it down to 55

20 degrees. We already have the definition that

21 anything below 39 degrees is a refrigerator. 

22 So if the wine cooler operated below 39

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1 degrees it would essentially have to be

2 classified as a refrigerator. So I mean the

3 super-cold temperatures are already covered by

4 the standard as it's written, so 55 degrees

5 would take into consideration those products

6 that are operated to deal with the

7 temperature.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see a few

9 potential head nods. I think it's useful from

10 the Department's point of view if they feel as

11 though they've got more than one voice from

12 industry --

13 MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Bill

14 Brown from G.E. We agree with Whirlpool. The

15 California and Canadian standards already

16 cover the wine chillers and the two product

17 classes that Debra mentioned from AHAM, the

18 automatic and manual defrost and to Steve's

19 point, below 39 degrees is already specified

20 like an electric refrigerator and there are

21 product classes that already cover that

22 product. The wine chillers again operate at

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1 55 degrees and the energy is tested at 55.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are you on

3 this part or should I let Debra continue?

4 MR. SIKIR: Paul Sikir, Subzero

5 Freezer Company. We also support Whirlpool,

6 G.E., and the California and Canadian

7 standards.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

9 Thanks very much.

10 Debra, you're going to continue, I

11 think.

12 MS. BRUNK: No.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No? Okay,

14 who did I miss, please do.

15 MR. SIKIR: Paul Sikir again,

16 Subzero. In addition, we will be in our

17 comments to DOE submitting comments relative

18 to establishing a new classification for

19 built-in refrigeration. Subzero supplies

20 built-in refrigeration. It's a small, unique

21 niche market. We're going to be providing

22 some of the rationale similar to what was used

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1 back in 2001 with compact refrigerators in the

2 area of -- we've provided distinct utility,

3 have a small production volume, manufacturing

4 impact and the small energy usage and some

5 limited improvement potentials that the built6 in market has and we'll provide those in

7 comments in detail. So I just wanted to make

8 the DOE aware of that.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Ron Lewis.

11 MR. LEWIS: Excuse me, are you

12 suggesting that we have a separate product

13 class established for built-ins?

14 MR. SIKIR: Yes, that's my

15 suggestion. Thank you.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

17 MR. MACKAY: Sean Mackay with

18 Whirlpool Corporation. On item 3-4, we would

19 support that convertible or refrigerator20 freezers should be classified under

21 classification 19 on page 42. And also feel

22 that the convertible compartment should be

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1 tested at its highest energy-using process.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

3 Other comments on 3-4? 

4 Steve.

5 MR. BLANC: PG&E concurs with what

6 the gentleman just said on the item 3-4 that

7 that bottom drawer should be tested as a

8 freezer.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

10 you.

11 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

12 from Whirlpool. Just a clarification. As

13 Sean said it should be classified as 19, if

14 it's tested at 19. But if the convertible

15 compartment turns it into an all freezer, then

16 it would be tested as -- be classified as it's

17 tested. Hopefully, that makes sense.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Bill?

19 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, G.E. Just

20 one other thing to expand upon Steve's point,

21 you specifically mentioned right now the

22 department freezer with through-the-door ice

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1 item 3-4 only talks about the convertible

2 compartment. So if it had a dispenser through

3 the door, does not have a dispenser, then it's

4 product class 5.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Exactly.

6 MR. BROWN: Right. And again, if

7 it turns it into a freezer, then you have --

8 then it's a different product class, it's the

9 all- freezer.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So both

11 definitions, are they all in HRF-1?

12 MR. BROWN: Yes, and they're also

13 referenced also by reference at 10 CFR 430.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So that was

15 Bill and his final comment. I was looking to

16 Debra also for confirmation. Yes?

17 MS. BRUNK: This is correct. 

18 Thank you.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,

20 okay. So we cleaned all that up.

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, now a

22 little bit more on product classes and

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1 providing some insight as to plans for the

2 analyses that we'll be doing. There are 20

3 product classes and there's been a suggestion

4 made for additional product classes. The

5 intent is to try to narrow that down and not

6 do detailed analyses for all 20 and we have

7 selected seven product classes listed here

8 that will be subjected to detailed analyses

9 and they've been selected with in mind that

10 these are product classes that represent a

11 large proportion of the shipments and also a

12 large proportion of the energy use associated

13 with this general product category.

14 Starting with standard size

15 refrigerators and refrigerator-freezers, top16 mounted freezers without through-the-door,

17 water mounted freezers without through-the18 door and then side-by-sides with through-the19 door. Standard size freezers, the upright

20 freezers with automatic defrost and chest

21 freezers and all other freezers except for

22 compact freezers. 

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1 And then we're planning to look at

2 in detail at two compact size product classes,

3 the compact size refrigerators and

4 refrigerator-freezers with manual defrost and

5 then compact size chest freezers.

6 And then the proposal is to extend

7 these analyses to the other product classes

8 and subsequent analysis.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So this is

10 the specific query. Comments on extending what

11 is seven representative product classes, the

12 previous slide 45, extend the analyses to the

13 remaining 13.

14 Debra?

15 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

16 We realize it's not realistic to evaluate all

17 20 product classes and we therefore support

18 DOE's proposal to evaluate the representative

19 product classes they have listed. We do

20 suggest, however, again adding wine coolers as

21 a separate class in that group for our

22 evaluation. Finally, just for clarification

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1 for product class 5 which is the refrigerator2 freezers and automatic defrost and automatic

3 freezer with through-the-door ice service --

4 I'm sorry, without through-the-door ice

5 service, we do recommend evaluating a model

6 that has the highest energy heat leakage which

7 would be the French door model.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ed.

9 MR. OSANN: Could you restate the

10 last point that you made?

11 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM. 

12 What we wanted to suggest as DOE carries out

13 their representative analysis on product --

14 I'm sorry on product class 5, which is the

15 automatic defrost with the automatic freezer

16 without through-the-door ice service, we are

17 suggesting that DOE actually evaluate models

18 that have the highest heat leakage which would

19 be a French door style model and use that to

20 move to the rest of your prior classes to

21 extrapolate.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

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1 Additional comments on this specific request

2 for comment, item 3.5?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, now moving

5 on to the technology part of the market and

6 technical assessment, the next few slides just

7 lay out a preliminary list of technology

8 options broken out by the specific areas in

9 the refrigerator that they deal with.

10 First of all, cabinet, some

11 insulation improvements have been pointed out,

12 improved resistivity of insulation, increased

13 insulation thickness, vacuum-insulated panels,

14 and also gas-filled panels. And the gasket

15 and door design, there are four listed here: 

16 improved gaskets, double-door gaskets, i.e.,

17 meaning two gaskets for the doors, improved

18 door face frame, and reduced heat load for

19 through-the-door feature.

20 Under antisweat heater, three

21 technology options have been highlighted: 

22 condenser hot gas and by extension that would

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1 include also one liquid antisweat. Electric

2 heater sizing, more careful sizing of the

3 heater so that it's not providing more heat

4 than necessary and also electric heater

5 controls. 

6 Technology options under

7 consideration for the system include looking

8 at the compressor, improved compressor

9 efficiency, variable speed compressors, and

10 linear compressors as an option for improving

11 compressor efficiency. 

12 Evaporator increased surface area

13 or improved heat exchange condenser, likewise,

14 increased surface area or improved heat

15 exchange. 

16 And under fans and fan motor,

17 either better blades, better blade orifice

18 system or fan motor improvements and likewise

19 for the condenser fan.

20 Additional system-oriented

21 technology options improve expansion valves,

22 improve control solenoid valve to reduce

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1 cycling losses, adjustments to the defrost

2 system, careful design of the defrost system

3 to reduce the energy required, adaptive

4 defrost, compressor cycling defrost and

5 condenser hot gas defrost.

6 Under control system improved

7 temperature control, this specifically refers

8 to use of electronic types of control to

9 improve the control and improve the air

10 distribution to provide better control of

11 temperature within cabinets. 

12 And also a list of alternative

13 options are on the table here, alternative

14 refrigerants, component location and that

15 refers to placing the warm parts of the system

16 perhaps somewhere other than right underneath

17 the cabinet where maximum heat load can be

18 transferred to the cabinet. Alternative

19 refrigeration systems and cycles. There's a

20 number of these that involve dual compressors. 

21 Some of these involve dual evaporators with a

22 single compressor and a valve, both of those

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1 intended to try to raise the evaporating

2 temperature for the fresh food side of the

3 refrigerator as it operates in order to reduce

4 energy. The ejector refrigerator involves no

5 moving parts, a component that will increase

6 the suction pressure and then there are

7 Stirling thermal electric and thermal acoustic

8 also on the list.

9 And so request for comment --- and

10 this slide maybe belongs in the screening

11 section which comes later, but we might as

12 well put it on the table here, whether there

13 are any technologies that should not be

14 considered because impacts on safety

15 performance and consumer utility or if there

16 are other things that should be considered.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra.

18 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

19 I first just want to mention an item 4-1, this

20 list is very comprehensive. We do believe

21 it's somewhat more realistic. Obviously

22 screening would fall into that. AHAM will

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1 provide more specific comments on each one of

2 those technologies in our written comments as

3 we review those as an industry.

4 Item 4-2, we would suggest adding

5 alternative blowing agent under insulation as

6 a potential technology.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 So it's a pretty healthy list here. Any

9 comment on what we should not consider or

10 anything that is not listed that should be

11 listed?

12 Yes, Steve.

13 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

14 with Whirlpool. Under alternate refrigerants,

15 I understand that R-600 is flammable and UL

16 has created some obstacles to using that in

17 the U.S. market. You can't use over 50 grams

18 in a product.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So what are

20 you suggesting -- how should DOE treat that?

21 MR. CHURCH: You shouldn't go down

22 the path looking at that alternate

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1 refrigerant, that one in particular, or any

2 flammable alternate refrigerant in the units

3 that would use excess of UL's recommended

4 required metals. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 Kelley.

7 MS. KELLEY: Yes, just to add to

8 that from G.E.'s perspective, the UL

9 requirements are appropriate or are important

10 to consider as you think about alternative

11 refrigerants, but DOE should also be cognizant

12 of the process that EPA has in place to

13 approve refrigerants such as R-600 or others

14 to, in essence, say they are safe for use as

15 alternative refrigerants. So there are

16 processes like that in place to ensure

17 refrigerants are appropriate for use as

18 alternatives.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So comments

20 on the list and items that may not be on the

21 list.

22 I see no additional -- let's take

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1 a break at this point. It's by my -- is Greg

2 Hall here? Would you come up here and see

3 Steve Witkowski, please? 

4 It's now 10:30 almost. Let's

5 resume at 10:45. Those of you who aren't

6 familiar with the building, on the ground

7 floor in that direction there is a coffee shop

8 and please don't leave the building because

9 you'll have to clear through security again

10 and we'll resume at 10:45. Please wear your

11 badges, your security badge while you're in

12 the building.

13 We'll see you back here in 15

14 minutes.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 10:27 a.m. and

17 resumed at 10:49 a.m.)

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so

19 let's resume. We're ahead of schedule. 

20 That's a good thing. And let's turn it back

21 to Detlef for screening analysis.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, now we move

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1 on to the second step in ANOPR analyses, the

2 screening analysis. And this section will be

3 short, basically talking about what the

4 screening analysis is about for purposes to

5 screen out technology options that DOE will

6 not consider in the in-depth analysis, the

7 engineering analysis in particular.

8 And the method is DOE will

9 consider the following criteria: the

10 technological feasibility and part of that

11 involves the ability to verify confidently

12 that the technology will work as somebody

13 theorizes that it will work. Practicability

14 to manufacture, install, and service. Impacts

15 on product utility or availability to

16 consumers and also impacts on health or

17 safety.

18 I believe the only comment here is

19 the criteria listed of the appropriate ones in

20 carrying out the screening analysis.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So these

22 criteria or others potentially. Yes, Debra.

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1 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

2 We would just like to state that we believe

3 the criteria listed are appropriate.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Any other comments on the criteria or others

6 that should be included?

7 That was short.

8 (Laughter.)

9 We'll stay ahead of schedule.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Now moving on to

11 the engineering analysis, the engineering

12 analysis essentially the whole point is

13 creating that curve that, for each product

14 class and potentially for different sizes of

15 the product class, determines how much money

16 you have to spend in the manufacturing

17 scenario in order to achieve higher efficiency

18 levels.

19 And this information feeds into

20 many of the downstream rule-making analyses,

21 the life-cycle cost and payback period, the

22 manufacturer impact analysis, the national

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1 impacts, and then it becomes the basis for

2 eventually setting the standards.

3 So the next couple of slides kind

4 of say this in a little bit more detail. The

5 methodology for engineering analysis, what is

6 done? Well, first you establish what are

7 these baseline units? Now for refrigerators,

8 there have been standards in place, so the

9 baseline models are essentially products that

10 just minimally meet the energy efficiency

11 standards in place at the moment.

12 Then there is reverse engineering

13 done. This detailed look taking up the

14 products, there's reverse engineering, tear15 down work, taking a look at how these products

16 are manufactured, models are put together to

17 estimate what are the costs of making the

18 product, what are the costs of making the more

19 efficient product.

20 One thing not explicitly mentioned

21 here is also energy use analysis in order to

22 improve the understanding of the technology

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1 impacts and how they affect the energy use.

2 Then there's data collection and

3 interviews, essentially discussion with the

4 manufacturers and to try to number one, get

5 some additional feedback on some of the

6 details and also data collection in the form

7 of detailed requests for information,

8 consolidated infromation for different

9 efficiency levels within each product class,

10 what are the additional costs associated with

11 those.

12 And then finally, with all that

13 information, the engineering analysis curves

14 are developed, essentially the curve that was

15 illustrated in the previous chart. 

16 This chart --

17 MR. OSANN: Question. In the

18 second bullet it says the "green-field" model

19 of the subject unit and factory. Does that

20 suggest here you're modeling across building

21 a whole new plant to produce compliant product

22 and why would you make that assumption for

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1 your model?

2 MR. von WENTZEL: Constatin von

3 Wentzel with Navigant Consulting. We make

4 that assumption with every rule-making tear5 down analysis. We always assume "green-field"

6 plant and this is for consistency sake.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You go from

8 a model to extrapolating what the -- take into

9 scale what the actual factory will cost also?

10 MR. von WENTZEL: Correct. The

11 tear-down model incorporates all costs,

12 including the capital costs required to build

13 a factory and we then take a look at the

14 results that the cost model predicts in terms

15 of the depreciation versus what manufacturers

16 publish in their SEC 10-K forms or what have

17 you.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Why is that

19 better than assuming retooling of an existing

20 factory?

21 MR. von WENTZEL: Because it's

22 pretty much impossible unless you're a

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1 demanufacturer to know what the retooling

2 costs would actually be, so like I said from

3 a consistency point of view, we feel we do

4 better if we just assume a fully new factory

5 with new tooling and everything else and then

6 we look at it in the GRIM stage later on in

7 the government regulatory impact stage as to

8 what the depreciation is for the industry

9 versus what we would predict it would be with

10 a new factory and keep in mind, some of these

11 retoolings are so extensive that it may

12 actually make more sense to build a whole new

13 factory.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: This slide kind

16 of combines the previous two with the graphic

17 of the curve and essentially is saying again

18 what I said in the previous slide, the reverse

19 engineering is done to define the

20 manufacturing costs associated with stepping

21 up in efficiency levels and then there is

22 discussion and information exchanged with

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1 manufacturers in order to validate curves.

2 The next I think three slides

3 define the proposed baseline products for the

4 product classes and I'm not going to read

5 through all of these. These are essentially

6 the current efficiency standards.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Of course,

8 comment would be welcome if we have any need

9 to comment on these baseline numbers.

10 Yes, Debra?

11 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

12 We do support the baseline numbers and we do

13 support the format they're currently in and

14 the approach that's taken to get to these

15 baseline values. We want to recognize that

16 these provisions will change as soon as we

17 start incorporating the temperature changes

18 and our proposed volume changes that are in

19 the current standard that we're proposing for

20 the standard.

21 We do have one suggestion on the

22 format and that is that these equations

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1 actually be listed in English units only and

2 that it actually be the standard requirement

3 as when you convert to metric units, they can

4 alter the requirements slightly.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 Other comments on the baseline units?

7 I'm looking at Item 5.1. 

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: This slide

9 addresses the issue of the new compartment

10 temperatures as regards to what -- how we will

11 address the fact that the energy use will be

12 different at the different temperatures. As

13 mentioned previously, the test procedures may

14 be modified for compartment temperatures which

15 are currently under consideration for IEC and

16 in the new AHAM test procedure.

17 And clearly, the efficiency

18 metric, the kilowatt hours per year will be

19 affected by the change. The approach that

20 we're proposing to take is based on an

21 assumption and understanding of vision that

22 the energy use based on the current and

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1 proposed temperature levels can be related

2 with these test temperature adjustment factors

3 such that the energy measured with the new

4 temperatures will be equal to this TTAF

5 parameter, times the energy for the current

6 temperatures and that for each product class

7 there will be a different coefficient.

8 Establishing these factors would

9 be based on some of the data collected by AHAM

10 that we have had the privilege to see and we

11 probably will be requesting additional data

12 and that's part of what is in the draft

13 information tables.

14 Energy modeling will be carried

15 out and we'll address this issue as well to

16 take a look at whether some of the test data

17 are consistent with what the energy models

18 would suggest and then some energy testing

19 would be carried out for refrigerator-freezers

20 to help support establishing these

21 coefficients.

22 DOE intends to carry out the

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1 engineering analysis based on the current set

2 of temperatures, basically carrying out the

3 entire analysis and establishing kilowatt hour

4 per year values based on existing temperatures

5 and in parallel carry out the analysis of what

6 are these temperature adjustment factors. And

7 with the division that this equation here can

8 relate the two, after those kilowatt hour per

9 year values are established based on the

10 current temperatures, then those would just be

11 adjusted by these coefficients. And is the

12 proposed approach.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ed.

14 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. This has to

15 do with the temperature -- I hadn't thought

16 through the arithmetic completely yet, but is

17 the multiplier that's used for the adjusted

18 volume of the freezer and refrigerator

19 compartments I think is 1.63 now, will that

20 change with -- similarly, will that change

21 with the adjusted temperatures that are

22 proposed here, the 1.63 conversion factor?

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1 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church,

2 Whirlpool. The adjustment factor would be

3 determined in accordance with the AMAM-HRF-1

4 and I think that precipitate change in the

5 adjustment factor.

6 MR. BROWN: This Bill Brown from

7 G.E. We agree with what Whirlpool said.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,

9 that's good. Thank you.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Just a point of

11 clarification on that, are you suggesting that

12 say the 1.63 should be changed if the

13 temperatures are changed?

14 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

15 again at Whirlpool. If you follow the HRF-1

16 standard there is a formula for that and when

17 you cut in the new temperatures it will change

18 the adjustment factors.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So I'll

21 just call your attention, if you would, please

22 to item 5.5 and 5.6, related to current sets

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1 of compartment temperatures as specified in

2 the current test procedure and also on the

3 planned approach. I think we've already

4 receive some comment on that.

5 Debra?

6 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

7 I'm going to comment first on item 5.6 and

8 then move into 5.5. In terms of the planned

9 approach through the TTAFs, we do believe that

10 for the purpose they're statistically valid,

11 however, I think we do prefer that the

12 analysis actually be completed by using the

13 new temperatures and the new volumes and going

14 back to 5.5 which addresses a procedure there,

15 I think we feel that's important to basically

16 set the baselines. We evaluate how the units

17 really work in terms of under these new

18 conditions and also we feel that it is a very

19 straight-forward and verifiable approach. 

20 We're not dealing with conversion factors and

21 that kind of thing.

22 Once those numbers are obtained,

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1 we would suggest comparing those results using

2 the new procedure to which we get with the

3 current because you still need to have that

4 comparison in order to set energy standards,

5 but that historical information does exist.

6 And then proposed new efficiency

7 levels would need to be based on temperatures

8 using an old procedure just to make sure that

9 we are consistent. But again, we do believe

10 that utilizing the new procedure for the

11 engineering analysis is important to set a new

12 baseline.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

14 Yes?

15 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown from G.E. 

16 I will say that G.E. does agree with AHAM's

17 comments but want to further clarify that the

18 analysis on slide 63 must include the new

19 volumes. It cannot be done simply with just

20 a temperature jetted factor. It has to

21 incorporate the new volume calculations as

22 well.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

2 you. Other comments on these two specific

3 requests on 5.5 and 5.6? Thank you.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess getting

5 into the heart of developing the cost

6 efficiency curves, DOE proposes to use a

7 combined efficiency level design option

8 approach. We will seek incremental cost data

9 from manufacturers for different efficiency

10 levels for the different product classes and

11 that's included in some of the draft tables

12 for that information are included in the

13 Framework Document appendices. And then that

14 will be supplemented with stakeholder

15 interviews and also publicly available data.

16 The efficiency level analysis will

17 be supported by design option analysis. This

18 will be an in-depth analysis of seven product

19 classes. Reverse engineering for three

20 representative products of each of the seven

21 product classes represent in two different

22 capacities, volumes that is. And both

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1 baseline and enhanced deficiency products, so

2 three products, two different volumes, maybe

3 two Energy Star one standard, maybe two

4 standard one Energy Star.

5 And then energy testing of auto6 defrost standard size refrigerator-freezers,

7 manufacturer cost modeling, based on reverse

8 engineering and then energy modeling based on

9 reverse engineering validated based on energy

10 label information and then some of these

11 energy tests that are being carried out and I

12 should mention that some of this work has

13 already been initiated and certainly we're

14 working with Dick Merriam who wrote the ERA

15 analysis to upgrade that analysis and we've

16 done some of this work already on looking at

17 the products and validating the energy model

18 and some of the work has already gotten

19 started on establishing the manufacturing

20 costs model. And so we certainly, as soon as

21 possible will seek to set up some of the

22 stakeholder interviews to try to have some of

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1 the information exchanged as well to support

2 that effort.

3 And then using this approach, the

4 cost efficiency curves will be generated from

5 incremental costs for each efficiency level

6 and the design option analysis will support

7 that, essentially two parallel analysis with

8 some information exchanged back and forth and

9 then sort of cross validating as we go along.

10 The reverse engineering

11 methodology, this applies specifically to the

12 manufacturing cost. The units used for the

13 tear-down are selected. There's a physical

14 tear-down which basically looks at all the

15 parts and how -- what fabrication processes

16 are required to put them all together. And

17 then put that together in the manufacturing

18 cost model. This is based on selection of

19 specific models, but then it is generalized so

20 that it can be used to represent manufacturing

21 costs also for other models that were not

22 specifically part of the physical tear-down.

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1 MR. OSANN: Question. Ed Osann. 

2 Recalling the earlier question about the

3 "green-field" plant site and the modeling,

4 there's a fabrication process for some

5 materials and then assembly process. Which of

6 those locations would be a "green-field" site

7 in your modeling?

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Mike?

9 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant

10 Consulting. I'd like to take a step back and

11 just explain overall the methodology that

12 we're using here and why we're talking about

13 "green-field" modeling versus trying to model

14 the starting point from individual

15 manufacturers.

16 What we're interested in getting

17 are the incremental costs of two different

18 designs. So to be able to do that through the

19 physical tear-downs, we're able to see what

20 are the elements of today's commonly

21 constructed refrigerator and we look at

22 specific models from manufacturers, but really

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1 what we're looking for here in the tear-down

2 is not to come up with a number, but it's to

3 come up with an understanding of what is the -

4 - what are the designs input in the baseline

5 model.

6 The assumption about "green-field"

7 is simply to look at if you were to build this

8 baseline refrigerator with a new facility,

9 this is how much it would cost. If you were

10 to build this refrigerator, this more

11 efficient refrigerator with a new facility,

12 this is how much it would cost and focus on

13 the difference. So the reverse engineering is

14 gone in both cases for the baseline and the

15 standards case, assuming a brand new plant.

16 Thinking through the implications

17 of that, really what we're modeling is a best

18 case situation. Manufacturers don't start

19 with the ability to subtract out all their

20 previous investments from this new

21 requirement, so we take that into

22 consideration in the manufacturing impact

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1 analysis in looking at those transferrable

2 those physical assets are looking at what the

3 stranded assets are and then adding in the

4 capital.

5 But for the engineering analysis

6 it's an idealized version where you assume

7 that everything they have now can be credited

8 back at full cost. Does that explain sort of

9 a high level, where you're trying to go?

10 MR. OSANN: Yes, but in response

11 to my question in this case it would be the

12 assembly process and fabrication.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks,

14 Mike.

15 Lane?

16 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. I

17 would just point out that this and many other

18 things would be very helpful if we had some

19 sort of record or historical analysis to

20 evaluate how successful the Department has

21 modeled these and this has come up on other

22 dockets with other industries, agency

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1 advocates, the industry folks have asked for

2 this. I think it's something that needs to be

3 brought up here.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Steve?

6 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc, PG&E. I

7 would like to second that agreement. We know

8 there's been some issue about the over9 estimation of some costs and would like to see

10 that particularly not only do we do this, but

11 we also look back in history in previous rule12 makings to see how those costs came out.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

14 you.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: As mentioned,

16 there will be information requested from the

17 industry and this slide sort of describes the

18 details of that. I don't know, Constantin, if

19 you want to elaborate a little bit on -- if

20 there's any intricacies here which need to be

21 highlighted?

22 MR. von WENTZEL: Constantin von

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1 Wentzel. 

2 So as part of our cost submittal

3 process, we shipment weight submittals and we

4 also don't publish anything where we don't

5 have enough information to aggregate data

6 confidentially. I guess if anyone has any

7 questions --

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike

9 Rivest.

10 MR. RIVEST: The intent here is to

11 have both DOE develop its own bottoms-up

12 estimate, if you will, and to the extent that

13 industry is willing, industry to supply its

14 own cost estimates and really how industry

15 decides to do that is up to industry and it's

16 not up to us, but you know we envision that

17 industry would provide sufficient information

18 so that it provides some insight into what

19 design pathways manufacturers are using to

20 improve that efficiency. 

21 Ideally, what we'd like to see is

22 our internally developed curves and industry

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1 curves overlay and if understanding the grave

2 difficulty in coming up with aggregating

3 enough data from enough manufacturers to

4 provide that confidentiality that you need, we

5 will try to through out own exercises be as

6 transparent as possible to the docket. So

7 again, how you develop your costs is more up

8 to you.

9 Just following on, what we're

10 providing here is some -- the intent of the

11 tear-down is not to create absolute cost

12 numbers for a bunch of refrigerators, but it's

13 to gain some insight into what design pathways

14 are currently being use to improve efficiency. 

15 So here you have a listing of some

16 refrigerators that you either have or intend

17 to tear down to get some understanding about

18 typical features that are incorporated. It

19 allows us to validate our list of design

20 options. And then ultimately because we also

21 have these tested based on the test procedure,

22 we are able to calibrate our energy use model

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1 so that we make sure that the model on which

2 the design option approach will be based will

3 have been -- we will have been able to

4 reproduce the energy use of these

5 refrigerators, assuming the same design

6 properties. It's not significant for specific

7 models because our goal is really to validate

8 the model at this time.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: And the reason to

10 identify some of these models which are being

11 looked at in detail is basically to ask can

12 these be considered representative of the

13 types of product classes that they, you know,

14 that they are.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: These are

16 good examples. These are illustrative.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Additionally, in

18 this slide, we show the volumes and the

19 representativeness of the range of the total

20 volumes is also something that we want to put

21 at the table and try to get comment on. And

22 then the contact size.

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1 So three separate slides, standard

2 size refrigerator-freezers, and also the

3 compact size, so if you take a peek at those -

4 - so the request for comments address the

5 questions of how representative the volumes

6 chosen for the different product classes are,

7 how representative the specific products might

8 be for those product classes, and then also

9 requests on comment for the use of the

10 efficiency level approach supplemented by the

11 design option approach.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra.

13 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM. 

14 Item 5-2 regarding the volumes. Certainly

15 looking at the tables just presented, they

16 appear representative. I would go back to the

17 table that is published in the Framework

18 Document. However, where it states that for

19 product class 5, DOE would look at 18 cubic

20 foot. Let me just note that that probably

21 isn't representative of that product class,

22 either 17 or 19, but I do notice in previous

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1 tables it's listed as 19 cubic foot that is

2 listed.

3 Item 5-3, basically as AHAM has

4 done in the past we will supply as much

5 information regarding the technical

6 information on these basic models as we can. 

7 We obtain that from our members and we do

8 aggregate, so if we cannot aggregate, we will

9 not be able to provide all the information. 

10 And there are some product classes that we

11 already recognize that that would be a 

12 concern.

13 And then finally AHAM on item 5-4,

14 we do support DOE's use of the efficiency

15 level approach and again to Mike Rivest's

16 comment earlier on incremental cost

17 determination, the industry does feel more

18 comfortable with providing incremental cost to

19 a specific energy level as opposed to

20 highlighting a particular design option.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

22 Some other comments related to this series of

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1 questions, whether the volumes are

2 representative, whether the specific products

3 listed are illustrative and the efficiency

4 level of approach supplemented by the design

5 option approach in 1, 2, and 3.

6 Any comments on those? I guess

7 not.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Now talking about

9 efficiency levels, this further clarifies some

10 of the requests for information. As

11 mentioned, we'll be focusing on -- in the

12 engineering analysis on all the product

13 classes and a set of for each product class we

14 choose two different volumes and efficiency

15 levels and basically it winds up being an

16 input table that is quite comprehensive, but

17 that's the level of data required to really

18 try to fill in these curves for all of these

19 product classes.

20 There is some discussion here

21 about "max tech" and I guess there's sometimes

22 some discrepancy between the maximum

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1 efficiency commercially available and the

2 maximum technologically feasible. For this

3 product category I would think probably there

4 is a discrepancy there, but DOE seeks

5 stakeholder input in regards to this potential

6 discrepancy. That is, that you could probably

7 manufacture products that are technologically

8 feasible, but ridiculous in cost and those are

9 not on the market.

10 The next few slides discuss for

11 the different product classes the different

12 efficiency levels for which we would be

13 requesting information for the refrigerator14 freezers with automatic defrost, top freezer,

15 bottom freezer, without through-the-door ice

16 and side-by-side with through-the-door ice. 

17 We have the baseline efficiency level and then

18 five or four, potentially five, additional

19 efficiency levels. Those essentially align

20 with some of the non-mandatory efficiency

21 programs, voluntary efficiencies programs that

22 are out there.

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1 For the standard size freezers,

2 there's the baseline DOE standard, Energy

3 Star, and there are no particular voluntary

4 programs associated with some of the

5 additional energy reductions for which we're

6 requesting information.

7 And for compact refrigerators and

8 freezers, again, there's the DOE standard

9 level and then some of the voluntary program

10 efficiency levels.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

12 MS. BRUNK: Just a quick comment. 

13 I know there's been some discrepancy -- I'm

14 sorry, Debra Brunk, AHAM.

15 There's some discrepancy I think

16 in presentations and also in the Framework

17 Document. I think AHAM wants to make it clear

18 that Energy Star requirements have changed and

19 I think the way that this is listed in the

20 document that was actually on the website

21 states the correct values, basically the

22 current Energy Star level is at 20 percent as

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1 opposed to 10 percent. I think that's

2 correct.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You're

4 referring to slide 74 which is upright chest

5 freezers?

6 MS. BRUNK: Actually, I think it's

7 73. I apologize. This presentation is

8 correct. The document that was actually

9 published, the text is incorrect. So we just

10 want to make sure that we are consistent in

11 our Energy Star. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So just to

13 confirm, the 15 percent listed in 73, that is

14 correct?

15 MS. BRUNK: Yes.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

17 MS. BRUNK: Secondly, I would just

18 like to note, I mentioned this earlier, but as

19 we look at the new test procedures in terms of

20 test procedures and volumes, that will

21 certainly have an impact on the equations and

22 we do believe that these percentages should be

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1 applied to the current procedure as stated

2 here as opposed to the new procedure before we

3 determine the new proposed energy standards.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: The efficiency

5 levels that are presented as percentages

6 because according to our vision for relating

7 the temperatures, a 10 percent according to

8 the old temperatures will be at 10 percent

9 according to the new.

10 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

11 I think -- I mean we can get into more

12 discussions on that, but 10 percent on the old

13 and 10 percent on the new would be different

14 values. We need to look carefully at that.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: There would be

16 different numerical values, but --

17 MS. BRUNK: Understanding that the

18 baseline model is the baseline model that we

19 measure at the old or the new test procedure.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is correct.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for

22 that clarification.

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1 Are there comments -- there are

2 several things the Department I think would

3 seek comment on here, one of which is the "max

4 tech" level that you see and generally again

5 about the potential discrepancy.

6 Yes, please, Jennifer.

7 MS. THORNE-AMANN: Jennifer Thorne

8 Amann, ACEEE. With regard to the typical

9 standard size for refrigerator-freezer models,

10 we would be interested in seeing an analysis

11 done between the current 4 and 5 "max tech" at

12 35 percent. There are now products on the

13 market now and several categories that exceed

14 30 percent above that baseline and if there is

15 movement on tax credits for more efficient

16 models at the 30 percent level, we think there

17 will be more movement in the market there. So

18 we'd like to suggest an analysis of the 35

19 percent level and then "max tech" beyond that.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so if

21 you have written comments, include those

22 specifics and that would be very helpful.

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1 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc, PG&E. 

2 I'd like to second what Jennifer said. We'd

3 like to see a 35 percent level in between the

4 30 and the "max tech."

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 Yes, Ed?

7 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. I've got a

8 question about the implications of where these

9 prior classes are aggregated in this display. 

10 Are the analyses going to be carried out

11 separately, just taking the first matrix on

12 slide 73. Are the analyses going to be

13 carried through all the way through separately

14 for each of classes 3, 5, and 7 separately?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.

16 MR. OSANN: So the possible

17 outcome is that a proposed efficiency level by

18 the time we get to the NOPR stage could be a

19 different level of improvement between, as

20 between say class 5 and class 7?

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct.

22 MR. OSANN: And all the

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1 justification for that would be in the record,

2 this aggregate?

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would assume

4 so, although I don't want to speak out of hand

5 here.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are you

7 interested in the -- and the desire would be

8 just by product class.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: By product class,

10 since the analysis --

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: --

12 providing there's a large enough sample size,

13 I guess in the data, right? You could

14 aggregate them, right, and not violate any

15 confidentiality -

16 MR. OSANN: I'm talking about

17 disaggregated between classes, not within

18 classes.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

20 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk of AHAM. 

21 Again, certainly DOE obtains their own data. 

22 AHAM gives support where we can. In the case

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1 of AHAM-supported data, we provide by-product

2 class when we can and again it is aggregated,

3 if we do end up with a product class that does

4 not have enough manufacturers to aggregate

5 that data, that information is not supplied to

6 DOE, although DOE can obtain that information

7 in other ways.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would assume

9 that the analyses certainly would be carried

10 out separately for each product class, and I

11 would assume that they would be made public

12 for each product class. I just don't want to

13 speak for DOE if that's not entirely true.

14 MR. OSANN: We have DOE here, so -

15 -

16 MR. WITKOWSKI: Steve Witkowski,

17 I'll get back to you with an answer on that.

18 MR. OSANN: So is the question

19 clear or should I elaborate on it first?

20 MR. WITKOWSKI: I'd appreciate it

21 if you could give it to us in writing.

22 MR. OSANN: As a question?

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1 MR. WITKOWSKI: Yes, please.

2 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo,

3 Earthjustice. Victor, can you turn to slide

4 72 for a second? It says in some cases DOE

5 defines the highest efficiency level based on

6 the maximum available efficiency currently on

7 the market. What would those -- what are

8 those cases, what are the situations in which

9 DOE does that?

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike

11 Rivest.

12 MR. RIVEST: "Max tech" is not a

13 recognition of cost effectiveness. "Max tech"

14 is simply the highest level that can be

15 achieved and has been proven at least in a

16 working prototype. Now it may be that there

17 is nothing demonstrated even in a prototype

18 that goes beyond the best product in the

19 market. That would be a situation that

20 applies here.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

22 Yes, Lane.

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1 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. I

2 just wanted to point out in this standard, I

3 don't think it will become effective at the

4 point where it --

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please move

6 the mic close to you.

7 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. I

8 just wanted to point out that the standard

9 becomes effective in 2014 and what's on the

10 market today isn't necessarily what's going to

11 be on the market six years from now, so I

12 point out and caution against over13 conservative assumptions here and also

14 encourage the Department to look at trends,

15 efficiency trends in the recent past so that

16 they can kind of take into account something

17 like Jim mentioned which is the tax credits

18 and other policies which are designed to move

19 the market so the Department doesn't set a

20 standard that's very low based on what's

21 currently out there.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike

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1 Rivest.

2 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest,

3 Navigant. In this particular situation,

4 because we will be doing design option

5 modeling using the ERA model, we will, in

6 fact, have values for "max tech" that probably

7 go well beyond what the market currently has,

8 but we have to identify a design pathway to be

9 able to model it, so to the extent that their

10 product does not incorporate commercial

11 designs that are technologically feasible,

12 we'll take that into account.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any

14 additional comments on this series of slides? 

15 I don't want to cut this short. We're

16 referring to 72, 73, 74, and 75 here, I think.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, yes?

19 MR. OSANN: The Department has

20 identified the seven product categories that

21 are going to be representative for the group. 

22 If the test procedures are modified to

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1 incorporate wine coolers and a product

2 category is established for wine coolers would

3 wine coolers become an eighth product

4 category, be evaluated or would they be 

5 -- they're not going to be close enough to be

6 clearly extrapolated from these seven?

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is true. I

8 think if the decision is made to incorporate

9 wine coolers as a product class, then we have

10 to then consider what methodology we use to

11 address them appropriately in the engineering

12 analysis and that has not yet been done and

13 not yet been presented. But obviously, it

14 will have to be done if and when that decision

15 is made.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes?

17 MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown

18 from G.E. I believe Debra Brunk already made

19 that comment for AHAM that if --

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm sorry,

21 apparently the microphones are not working all

22 that great. Please speak up, Bill.

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1 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown from GE. I

2 believe that Debra Brunk already made, from

3 AHAM, already made the comment that if wine

4 chillers becomes one of the product classes,

5 that it should be included with those seven to

6 become a baseline for the new product class.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 Sorry about the mics. Included within the

9 seven.

10 MR. BROWN: No, in addition to the

11 seven, like you were saying.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We'll

13 expect clarification. Other comments on this

14 series?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess there's a

16 few more slides here dealing with some

17 additional issues associated with engineering

18 analysis, the first on proprietary designs. 

19 And so there may be proprietary designs that

20 can be used to achieve a higher level of

21 efficiency than other

22 technology options, and DOE will evaluate all

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1 of those design options that are commercially

2 available or are present in a working

3 prototype.

4 However, if proprietary designs

5 lead to a higher efficiency level than other

6 technologies, then there's an issue with

7 considering them as the basis for setting a

8 standard. So there's this issue and

9 basically, there's only one way to get there

10 and that will be taken into consideration in

11 setting a standard. Obviously, the

12 confidentiality will be maintained if we get

13 information that is deemed intellectual

14 property.

15 I guess the question here, request

16 for comment on whether there are proprietary

17 designs of technology of which DOE should be

18 aware and to some extent some of the

19 information gathering through AHAM, there may

20 be information for efficiency levels which

21 include some proprietary designs and that's

22 something that obviously we should be made

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1 aware of.

2 And there's the question of if

3 it's important to consider some of these

4 designs how would DOE acquire the cost data

5 necessary for evaluating them.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra.

7 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

8 I would say at this point we're not aware of

9 any proprietary designs. I think, as I

10 mentioned earlier, we certainly are willing to

11 collect cost information and aggregate it. We

12 tend to do that again on an efficiency level

13 and not delving into the specifics of the

14 designs that it would take to get to that

15 efficiency level. We would, however, suggest

16 that DOE approach manufacturers able to join

17 to talk about those designs.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional

19 comments on proprietary designs, technologies

20 and potentially gathering the cost data?

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Another aspect

22 potentially affecting the engineering analysis

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1 is outside regulatory changes. An example is

2 the phase out of CFCs in past rulemakings and

3 the phase out of HCFC blowing agents. At this

4 point, DOE does not expect any similar

5 significant regulatory change to affect

6 current rulemaking, i.e., making some

7 technology options invalid or causing

8 potential significant shift in a different

9 aspect of the design that is not currently in

10 play in the analysis that we would be carrying

11 out based on today's products.

12 And so the comment is whether

13 there are other regulatory issues that DOE

14 should consider such as the CFC and HCFC phase

15 outs that affect past rulemakings.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

17 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

18 Two comments. I think we've touched on them

19 briefly earlier, one is regarding alternative

20 refrigerants that we expect to come out as a

21 result of the pending climate change

22 legislation. We believe this is going to be

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1 a pretty substantial regulatory burden for

2 manufacturers. Unfortunately, we can't say

3 much more than that because the legislation

4 has not been finalized, but we do recognize

5 that it's probably going to be a pretty big

6 impact.

7 Whatever the legislation is we

8 recognize that it will be a phase out of HFCs

9 over time. We just need to understand what

10 that time frame is, as the legislation moves

11 forward.

12 And the second comment was also

13 made earlier in terms of regulation of

14 chemicals by EPA. And then also the quantity

15 of restraints by safety organizations on

16 hydrocarbons do limit the viable alternatives

17 for refrigerants in the future at this time.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Are there other comments on other regulatory

20 issues and developments that DOE should

21 consider?

22 Lane?

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1 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. I

2 just wanted to point out as was previously

3 mentioned that coming climate change

4 legislation some time before 2014 is extremely

5 likely and that has an effect on the value of

6 this standard to the nation to consider it and

7 to the industry and that needs to be taken

8 into account.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Would you

10 suggest how they take it into account?

11 MR. BURT: I suggest that they --

12 we have suggested that they take it into

13 account through monetizing the value of carbon

14 dioxide and other issues that will come up

15 during climate change legislation and take

16 into account in the economic analysis, the

17 life-cycle cost analysis and the present value

18 analysis.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

20 you.

21 Other comments on regulatory and -

22 - other regulatory issues? No additional.

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1 Okay.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: And at this point

3 we move into the preliminary manufacturer

4 impact analysis which Constantin von Wentzel

5 will discuss.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: On the

7 agenda it was suggested we would pause for

8 lunch now, but we're going to keep going for

9 say another half an hour or so and then we'll

10 pause for lunch.

11 MR. von WENTZEL: Thank you. As

12 you can see the preliminary manufacturer

13 impact analysis is a supporting effort for the

14 engineering analysis as part of the -- before

15 the ANOPR process.

16 As you can see, there are seven

17 factors that EPCA provides and the MIA touches

18 on two of them. The rest of them are listed

19 on page 14 and specifically we focus on the

20 economic impact of standards on manufacturers

21 and impacts of any lessening of competition in

22 the industry. So these interviews that we

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1 have with manufacturers are really qualitative

2 and focus on the issues that they face at this

3 stage where we haven't really quantified

4 anything and really understand more than

5 anything else what their largest concerns are

6 and then we report that MIA data as part of

7 the ANOPR, and specifically focusing on

8 anticipated conversion capital to your point

9 and bi-efficiency level and the impacts on

10 employment.

11 And as you can see, there are

12 three phases to the MIA and this is obviously

13 just phase number one. And discussed this

14 already.

15 So in these interviews we discuss,

16 among other things, shipment projections for

17 the industry, conversion costs for existing

18 facilities, the product mix that a

19 manufacturer makes and the profitability

20 thereof to better establish the impacts on

21 them, market shares and industry

22 consolidation, cumulative regulatory burden

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1 and we don't have a cost efficiency curve yet

2 to discuss, but we might discuss things like

3 the cost of input factors for raw materials,

4 for example. And so we basically use all of

5 that information to create a very detailed

6 industry profile.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: People are

8 familiar with this slide, I think. You might

9 just take a peek at 85 to make sure you're

10 comfortable with what's there.

11 MR. von WENTZEL: Any questions?

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ed?

13 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. Are all the

14 manufacturers that will be interviewed, are

15 they U.S. based or how do you interact with

16 overseas manufacturers in the MIA?

17 MR. von WENTZEL: Do you want to

18 take that, Mike?

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike

20 Rivest.

21 MR. RIVEST: I think -- Mike

22 Rivest, Navigant Consulting. Certainly our

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1 approach has been to interview as many

2 manufacturers as are willing to talk to us, so

3 there's no -- in this age, it's very difficult

4 to really differentiate, if you will, other

5 than U.S.-owned, U.S. manufacturing base. 

6 There's just a whole different set of

7 manufacturers out there.

8 So there's no effort to screen out

9 anyone. We're trying to get the broadest view

10 what the impacts on manufacturers are and then

11 to report them in the interview back from the

12 interview summaries in the notice.

13 Of course, part of the interview

14 focuses on U.S. jobs so those impacts will be

15 recorded separately, but in terms of the

16 overall challenges or the cost of achieving

17 standards we do that at the industry level.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So then --

19 go ahead.

20 MR. von WENTZEL: I believe Greg,

21 you're on now.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Hello. My name

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1 is Gregory Rosenquist from Lawrence Berkeley

2 National Laboratory. And I'll be taking you

3 through the rest of the analyses in the ANOPR

4 analysis and it consists of the markups,

5 energy use determination, LCC, and payback

6 period analysis, the shipments analysis and

7 the national impact analysis. 

8 And I'll be starting off with the

9 markups. The purpose of this analysis is to

10 convert the engineering cost data from the

11 engineering analysis into consumer retail

12 prices. And we do that by first

13 characterizing how those products are being

14 distributed from the manufacturer to the

15 consumer.

16 And we've done a little bit of

17 work here and we've seen to the AHAM Fact Book

18 that well over 90 percent of shipments or

19 sales, that is, are sent through appliance

20 retailers. So we intend to basically

21 characterize how they are distributed to

22 consumers by this one retail, retailer price

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1 chain, that is from manufacturer to appliance

2 retailer to the consumer.

3 So we'll develop a markup for the

4 manufacturers and we'll develop a markup for

5 appliance retailers. We'll be calculating

6 manufacturing markups by looking at 10-K

7 reports filed with the Securities and Exchange

8 Commission for publicly-traded manufacturers. 

9 And for the retailer markups, we'll be looking

10 at U.S. Census Bureau business expenditure

11 survey data.

12 We also may collect some internet

13 retail prices as a way to validate the prices

14 we get from our markup analysis. And as part

15 of that also we'll look at the variability in

16 the retail prices for baseline products as

17 well as more efficient products.

18 So at this point I welcome any

19 comment or input on the proposed approach to

20 develop consumer retail prices.

21 MR. OSANN: This is similar to a

22 comment that was made earlier, but it might be

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1 useful from a retrospective standpoint to see

2 how well the DOE methodology has predicted

3 retail prices in previous rulemakings in the

4 past.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other

6 comments on markups for price determination?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So now I'll move

8 on to the next analytical step which is the

9 energy use determination. And the purpose of

10 this analysis is to characterize the annual

11 energy consumption of these products and when

12 they're coupled along with electricity prices

13 that gives you the annual operating costs. 

14 And again, this information is fed into the

15 life-cycle cost and payback period analysis.

16 The method relies on using the

17 Energy Information Administration's

18 residential energy consumption survey or RECS. 

19 And RECS consists of a large household sample,

20 around 5,000 household records that's

21 representative of the entire households in the

22 United States, over 100 million households in

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1 the United States.

2 And so what we'll do is we'll

3 select particular households from this sample

4 that have the different types of refrigerator5 freezers and freezers that we want to analyze. 

6 So we'll have a unique household sample again

7 for each product that's being analyzed in the

8 engineering analysis. And these are those

9 seven primary product classes: three for

10 standard size refrigerator-freezers, two for

11 standard size compact freezers, one for

12 compact refrigerator-freezers and then one for

13 compact freezers.

14 And again, I just want to

15 emphasize now that we'll be using these

16 household samples and each household record

17 will have one of these types of products which

18 we'll be establishing the annual energy

19 consumption for.

20 This slide goes into a little bit

21 more detail on exactly how we will be using

22 RECS to determine the annual energy

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1 consumption for refrigerator-freezer for a

2 particular household record. And what we do

3 is we start with the unit age, the equipment

4 age and its value and, again, we'll get those

5 two things from RECS and we use those two

6 things to come up with a tested or rated, DOE7 rated energy consumption on that particular

8 refrigerator in that particular household. 

9 Now RECS also provides to us the field-based

10 energy consumption of the refrigerator11 freezer.

12 So what we can do then is by

13 dividing the field-based energy consumption

14 out of RECS, by the tested energy consumption

15 that we calculate based upon other RECS

16 variables, we come up with this usage

17 adjustment factor or UAF. And this accounts

18 for things like consumer behavior, different

19 operating conditions, and other product

20 features that either add to or subtract from

21 the rated energy consumption of the product. 

22 And then we take that UAF for that particular

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1 household and couple that with the energy

2 consumption data that we're getting from the

3 engineering analysis, the tested energy

4 consumption from the engineering analysis to

5 come up with a field-based energy consumption

6 value for that particular household based

7 upon, again, the data that we're getting from

8 the engineering analysis.

9 So if you're talking about one

10 household sample for a particular product

11 class, what we end up with is a distribution

12 of field-based energy consumption values for

13 the baseline level and then for every single

14 candidate standard level that we intend on

15 analyzing.

16 And having this distribution of

17 energy use values will be very handy in terms

18 of the life-cycle cost payback period analysis

19 because it's a key input to establishing what

20 percentage of consumers are benefitting or

21 being burdened by a particular standard.

22 So this is asking for comment on

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1 this basic approach of using the residential

2 energy consumption survey to come up with

3 annual energy consumption.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

5 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 

6 We're concerned about using the RECS data for

7 a few reasons. One is its latest publication

8 is 2001 and it skips out on some pretty major

9 product categories, one in particular would be

10 your bottom mount type configuration which has

11 had significant growth in the last few years.

12 It's just not a very dynamic

13 database. We would invite DOE to use our

14 consumer data. We did complete a study in 2006

15 covering 8,000 representative households that

16 collected the same data that the RECS looks at

17 regarding product class, unit, age, and volume

18 and then also the energy consumption.

19 We will take a look at that and

20 make that available to you as an alternative.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: That sounds

22 great. That sounds great.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve?

2 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc, BG&E. I

3 think one thing has been overlooked here and

4 that is the impact on demand. Demand, of

5 course, is rather important to us utility

6 people because we have to be able to size

7 wires, pipes, generators, whatever we've got

8 out there to make it. It is becoming more

9 imperative to look at residential loads from

10 a demand point of view because of the

11 proliferation of electronics in the

12 residential sphere. And we want to make sure

13 that as DOE goes through the processes to

14 develop these standards that we can get an

15 understanding of what the demand impacts are

16 for future planning.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

18 Lane?

19 MR. BURT: Lane Burt. I just want

20 to second what was just said, demand impacts

21 are a major input into what should be

22 considered a standard level.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

2 Okay. Additional comments on this rather

3 detailed slide?

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I just wanted to

5 add, follow on to Debra, your comment about

6 offering up that data. Is that something that

7 you'll be providing with your written

8 comments?

9 MS. BRUNK: I'll have to take a

10 look and see what we need to put together, but

11 it will certainly be within the next few

12 months.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: And one other

14 point of information is that RECS is updating

15 to a more recent survey based upon 2005, but

16 again, if you have specific data that's

17 looking at household appliance use that has

18 8,000 records, that would probably be a better

19 source of information.

20 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM

21 again. You'll have both to look at and

22 hopefully they're consistent. And again, our

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1 point in doing this was to include a lot of

2 the new products that are out there because

3 the 2000 RECS data do not incorporate those.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Lane.

5 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. Just

6 a general comment that whenever the Department

7 notices that easily available data is not

8 realistic or does not jive with reality, they

9 should modify that in a realistic way because

10 getting close to the right answer is better

11 than just taking a wrong answer and that goes

12 for this or the EIA, AEO electricity price

13 forecasts.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So if you

15 had comments about your expectations on those

16 price forecasts, I'm certain the Department

17 would appreciate receiving those from any of

18 you.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: This next slide

20 talks about the rebound effect. And this is

21 the situation where the consumer has a more

22 efficient appliance and they know that they

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1 have it, that they'll use it more frequently,

2 and thus negate some of the energy savings

3 that you would realize from having a more

4 efficient product.

5 From the literature, from the

6 research that's been conducted and doing a

7 little bit of a literature survey on that, for

8 home appliance, generally it says that there

9 isn't a rebound effect, but they do talk about

10 the possibility of consumers knowing that it's

11 more efficient maybe would buy a larger

12 refrigerator-freezer or something that has

13 more features and thus use more energy

14 consumption.

15 So this next comment or request

16 from stakeholders for input is on whether a

17 rebound effect does exist for this particular

18 product and if one does exist, what sort of

19 effect is it? How much energy savings would

20 be negated if it were to be applied to this

21 particular product?

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

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1 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

2 I just mention from the industry that again we

3 would agree that there doesn't seem to be

4 anything specific for refrigerator-freezers in

5 terms of the consumer actually using it more. 

6 It's pretty set in how it's going to be used

7 in terms of how you may set your temperatures

8 and that kind of thing.

9 I think the other thing that we

10 would note is most consumers do have a fixed

11 space for a refrigerator-freezer and they're

12 not going to be able to necessarily get a huge

13 unit in to a space that is for a smaller one. 

14 I think the other thing that we would note in

15 terms of things like capacity of a

16 refrigerator-freezer, not only the fixed

17 space, but it is somewhat more dependent on

18 lifestyle or life stage than the actual

19 efficiency of the unit.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other

21 comments particularly on these assumptions

22 regarding rebound effect?

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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, the next

2 analysis is life-cycle costs. This is going

3 to take us probably maybe another 15 minutes

4 to get through and it's 12 o'clock now. Are

5 people okay with going ahead and do that?

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I was going

7 to suggest it's now 12. Fifteen minutes on

8 life-cycle costs on the agenda, and then we'll

9 have perhaps another hour of stuff to cover. 

10 Let's evaluate how we feel on 15 minutes. 

11 Maybe if we're making good progress, we could

12 even consider just keep working on through and

13 not pause for lunch. Let's just see how far

14 we get, how fast. Maybe we'll take a read at

15 12:30, see how far we are. Is that okay? No

16 one is objecting strenuously to this. Okay.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the next

18 analytical step is life-cycle cost and payback

19 period analysis. And the purpose of this

20 analysis is to look at how life-cycle costs of

21 the product and the payback periods are

22 impacted by these different energy efficiency

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1 levels to the consumer.

2 The life-cycle cost equals the

3 consumer price or the first cost, plus any

4 installation costs that might exist, plus the

5 annual lifetime operating cost, that are, of

6 course, discounted with a discount rate to a

7 particular base year.

8 Again, this evaluation for the LCC

9 and payback period is done from the consumer's

10 perspective, and we do this analysis in a

11 spreadsheet tool for transparency purposes. 

12 And we use Microsoft Excel to do that.

13 The results are always expressed

14 as a difference between a particular candidate

15 standard level and the baseline level and with

16 regard to the LCC what we're doing is

17 calculating the LCC at that standard level and

18 then also at the baseline level and taking the

19 difference to get whatever the LCC impact is.

20 And for the simple payback, what

21 we're doing is just calculating that as a

22 change in total installed cost divided by the

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1 change in first year's operating expenses to

2 determine that again for the consumer.

3 The approach that we use is this

4 statistical sampling technique called Monte

5 Carlo simulation, and the reason why we use

6 that is because there are several input

7 variables into the analysis that are highly

8 uncertain or highly variable and so we can

9 characterize all these various input variables

10 with what we call as probability

11 distributions.

12 It also is a nice approach that

13 when you use it to couple it with the RECS

14 household samples or whatever type of

15 household samples we're using. Because these

16 household samples are fairly large, what can

17 be done with the Monte Carlo relation

18 technique is to sample each one -- each

19 individual household record from that

20 particular household sample. A couple of

21 things that we're getting from these household

22 samples are energy use, energy price, so even

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1 though the particular household might have a

2 unique and distinct value, over the wide range

3 of the entire household sample we're capturing

4 the variability in the energy use and in the

5 energy price.

6 The other -- again, the other

7 inputs to the analysis like the discount rate,

8 the lifetime, those are characterized with

9 probability distributions. Other inputs like

10 the manufacturing cost typically recently have

11 been characterized with single point values,

12 but of course if there's any variability on

13 those inputs we capture with that as well.

14 So what we're doing here then is

15 we're using this Monte Carlo simulation

16 technique on each household sample for each

17 product class. And when this is coupled then

18 with the engineering analysis, we can generate

19 these life-cycle cost impacts again using that

20 data to determine again what the life-cycle

21 cost impacts are and the payback periods are.

22 Another key input to this analysis

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1 is what are called the base case efficiency

2 distributions. And this characterizes the way

3 in which consumers today are currently

4 purchasing these products. And so in other

5 words, by incorporating how consumers

6 currently purchase products today and bringing

7 that into the analysis it avoids overstating

8 the particular benefits from a standard level

9 again by taking into account those consumers

10 are actually buying more efficient products

11 today.

12 This slide shows the type of

13 information we're looking for in terms of

14 these base case-efficiency distributions. 

15 We'll be going to the industry particularly

16 for this type of information. What you see

17 here is an example for standard size

18 refrigerator-freezers. And again, we're

19 looking for what percentage of the market is

20 purchased at each one of these baseline and

21 efficiency levels. And you'll notice that

22 these efficiency levels match up with the

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1 levels that are being analyzed in the

2 engineering analysis.

3 Again, this is an example specific

4 to standard size refrigerator-freezers, but

5 again we're going to be looking for this

6 information for the other four primary product

7 classes that the engineering analysis is going

8 to be analyzing.

9 So this is a place where we're

10 looking for comment from stakeholders on this

11 approach to use Monte Carlo simulation

12 analysis in the LCC and payback period

13 analysis. And also to repeat our request for

14 these base case efficiency distributions to

15 characterize how consumers are currently

16 purchasing these products, so we don't

17 overstate the benefits from the particular

18 candidate standard level.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

20 MS. BRUNK: I was just going to

21 reiterate -- Debra Brunk, AHAM. IMA-2 that we

22 will provide these data. Again, we will not

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1 be able to provide it for all product classes,

2 but we will be able to provide it for a

3 subset.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

5 Jennifer?

6 MS. THORNE-AMANN: Jennifer Thorne

7 Amann, ACEEE. I have a question about in

8 looking at the base case efficiency

9 distributions and also looking at the

10 candidate standard levels. Will you be making

11 the same assumptions about people purchasing

12 above the standard level in the new case?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, yes, we will

14 be. If stakeholders feel like we should have

15 a different assumption about that, we

16 definitely would like to hear that.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Lane.

18 MR. BURT: Lane Burt, NRDC. I

19 just wanted to point out that the demand

20 effects are appropriate here as well as the

21 benefits to reduce demand are felt by

22 consumers who did not purchase a new

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1 refrigerator as well as the consumer who did,

2 and conversely, in the absence of a standard,

3 consumers that don't purchase a more efficient

4 refrigerator, the cost of that is not solely

5 associated with that consumer but spread

6 across all electricity users.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 Comments on these two slides, the approach of

9 the LCC and the base case efficiency

10 distributions?

11 Yes, Ed.

12 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. Just to

13 follow up on the point just made by Lane, does

14 the present methodology have a mechanism for

15 capturing benefits to consumers who are not --

16 in any given year who are not purchasing a new

17 refrigerator?

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: That type of

19 analysis wouldn't be conducted in a life cycle

20 cost and payback period analysis. Again, in

21 this analysis, we're looking at the consumers

22 of the type of product we're talking about

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1 here, which are refrigerators and

2 refrigerator-freezers and freezers. So the

3 type of effect I think Lane is talking about

4 is, again, what happens to all the rest of the

5 consumers in terms of reduced electricity

6 prices, for example, from the standard and

7 that, again, could be captured in other

8 analyses with different analytical tools.

9 This gives you an overview of how

10 all the inputs for the LCC and payback period

11 analysis are used to finally come up with a

12 life-cycle cost and payback period. To

13 quickly go over this, we start with the

14 engineering cost data which gives us baseline

15 manufacturing costs and standard level

16 manufacturing costs. Then we use markups from

17 the markups analysis, specifically the

18 manufacturer markup, consumer retail price

19 markup, and the sales tax to come up with an

20 equipment price. That's indicated in that

21 green box. Then we couple that with any

22 installation costs to arrive at the total

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1 installed cost to the consumer. 

2 The bottom sets of inputs pertain

3 to the operating expenses and with these, we

4 start out with the annual energy use again

5 which we get from our energy use determination

6 analysis. We're determining that again for

7 the baseline for each one of these different

8 candidates standard levels. We couple that

9 with energy prices, in our case electricity

10 prices, to come up with the annual energy

11 expense to the consumer. Then we take repair

12 costs and maintenance costs, add that to that

13 to come up with annual operating expenses. 

14 Then we use lifetime discount rates and energy

15 price trends and transform that into lifetime

16 operating expenses. And then when you add

17 that to the total installed cost, that's what

18 gives you the life-cycle cost. The change in

19 total installed cost for a particular standard

20 level divided by the change in annual

21 operating expenses is what gives you the

22 payback period.

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1 With regard to electricity prices,

2 what we plan to do here is use data from the

3 Energy Information Administration's 861, Form

4 861 data. And what this data provides is the

5 sales and revenues of all of the U.S. electric

6 utilities that serve residential consumers. 

7 So for a particular utility, we can just

8 divide the sales by the revenues to get the

9 average electricity price and then because the

10 data also provides to us the number of

11 consumers that are being served by the

12 utility, we can come up with customer weighted

13 average electricity prices for different

14 regions in the country. 

15 What we plan to propose here is to

16 develop regional electricity prices for 13

17 regions. Those are the nine Census divisions

18 in the four large states: California, Texas,

19 New York, and Florida.

20 What this allows us to do is

21 capture at least at this level of regionality,

22 the regional variability in the electricity

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1 prices. We'll plan to use energy price

2 projections, the Annual Energy Outlook, and we

3 plan to use three types of projections, one

4 for the reference case and there's two others

5 for high and low growth economic scenario

6 cases.

7 And finally, we'll consider any

8 other price projections that stakeholders

9 provide to estimate future electricity prices.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve.

11 MR. BLANC: Again, I want to beat

12 on the whole demand pricing drum because I

13 think that's a critical element here. It's

14 becoming more critical for most utilities,

15 particularly in the State of California and

16 secondarily, if you want something from us,

17 I'll give you lots of projections on

18 electricity prices, and I'm pretty sure we can

19 get them from our fellow utilities for

20 California.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: The reason why

22 we're proposing to use average electricity

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1 prices from this data set is because

2 refrigerators are typically a fairly flat

3 load, and although every end use contributes

4 to demand, there are other end uses,

5 particularly air conditioning that has more of

6 an effect on demand.

7 So when it comes to refrigerating

8 and saving energy on refrigerators, again,

9 although it has an effect on demand, it

10 doesn't have as much as an effect. And so the

11 contribution to demand from a refrigerator

12 energy efficiency standard would probably be

13 very low.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional

15 comments on DOE's proposed approach to

16 electricity prices?

17 Ed.

18 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann, two

19 comments. One is we would recommend that

20 through the course of this multi-year process

21 that you update -- use the most current AEO

22 that's available, all the way through the

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1 process.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's typically

3 what the Department does.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

5 MR. OSANN: And the other is a

6 question about whether the average -- whether

7 the average consumer energy cost really get at

8 the incremental benefit of a reduction that

9 might result from standard. The average cost

10 may not reflect the marginal price of

11 electricity on the typical retail rate

12 structure, typical block rate structure. 

13 Does the methodology incorporate a

14 way of capturing the value of the marginal

15 block that's experienced by the average

16 consumer?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: We've done those

18 type of analyses in the past where we've

19 looked at, for example, the RECS data does

20 have actual bill data in it, and from it, we

21 could derive a marginal electricity price for

22 a particular household. Again, that's

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1 straight from the billing data, so it's not

2 looking at a utility tariff, for example. But

3 we've also done those type of analyses in the

4 past as well by actually looking at the

5 tariffs, themselves, and trying to determine

6 what the electricity price is.

7 Again, when it comes to an end use

8 like refrigerators though, the -- again, the

9 marginal price for it is probably not going to

10 be significantly different. And actually it

11 could even be lower than the average

12 electricity price. So again, based upon past

13 work, I think it's probably fairly

14 representative to use an average electricity

15 price.

16 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo,

17 Earthjustice. The possibility or extremely

18 likelihood, rather, of climate legislation has

19 been brought up in a couple of other contexts. 

20 I think this is the area where -- this is one

21 area where we are likely to see very

22 significant impacts on electricity prices from

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1 climate legislation. The Energy Information

2 Administration has done an analysis of

3 Lieberman-Warner, the likely starting point

4 for a future climate bill and come up with

5 projections of emissions allowance prices out

6 to, I believe, 2030. It seems like it should

7 be fairly straight forward to take those

8 projections for emissions allowance prices and

9 using information on the carbon content of

10 each kilowatt hour generated to come up with

11 a projection for the future price of

12 electricity that encompasses projected carbon

13 emissions allowance values. Thank you.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Lane.

15 MR. BURT: Just to second what Tim

16 said. This is Lane Burt, NRDC. The AEO is

17 explicitly forbidden to consider coming

18 legislation or regulation. But that is not

19 only applied to climate change legislation. 

20 It also applies to this very standard making

21 process. The price forecast would develop no

22 new standards which we know is false. We're

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1 undergoing this rulemaking right now. And

2 also the AEO assumes rates for more efficient

3 equipment stay constant throughout the

4 projections and for, I'm not sure it is for

5 refrigerators, but just for example, for

6 residential A/C it's 13 percent. So these are

7 significant impacts that this rulemaking is

8 trying to address. So many of the other

9 Department's programs are trying to address

10 and it should be taken into account that this

11 forecast explicitly does not consider those

12 things. The Department should have to account

13 for that when they're setting the standard.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

15 you.

16 Additional comments on this

17 series, electricity prices? Okay.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: The set of inputs

19 are the maintenance, repair, and installation

20 costs. The installation costs are the costs

21 to install the piece of equipment for

22 refrigerator-freezers. There may not be much

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1 of an installation cost, but again, we try to

2 capture it. 

3 The repair costs are meant to

4 capture the cost for any components that need

5 replacement due to a failure and the

6 maintenance costs are associated with just

7 keeping the refrigerator running that don't

8 include actual repair or replacement of

9 components that have failed.

10 We currently don't have any data

11 to really indicate how these repair costs and

12 maintenance costs will change with more

13 efficient products, but we tend to think now

14 that there won't be much of a change. And for

15 installation costs, we think there only would

16 be a significant change if the products got

17 significantly heavier or larger.

18 So what we're looking for

19 stakeholder input on is whether this

20 assumption of these costs not changing

21 appreciably is a reasonable assumption and/or

22 whether some other type of assumption or set

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1 of data is available that can help us

2 establish how these costs change with

3 efficiency.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve.

5 MR. BLANC: Steve Blanc, BG&E. 

6 Having spent a large part of my career

7 sticking my hands in refrigeration equipment,

8 homeowners don't do maintenance refrigerators. 

9 And I think -- I got a few smiles around the

10 table. Everybody knows this. My comment

11 would be maybe you change the assumption there

12 a little bit and ask if required new

13 technology is more sensitive to that lack of

14 maintenance than present technology because

15 one of the problems that we have in promoting

16 energy efficiency is the fact that consumers

17 are very sensitive to the service they are

18 getting from that particular appliance or

19 electronic device. When it does not give them

20 the same service that their perception was of

21 their previous device, they're going to reject

22 it.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

2 you.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: And that's just

4 the type of thing we want to try to get after.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional

6 thoughts on maintenance, repair, and

7 installation costs?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Next are the

9 product lifetimes. For the analyses that DOE

10 plans to conduct, plan to use the same product

11 lifetime for the baseline product as for more

12 efficient products. And in past DOE

13 rulemaking analysis, a lifetime of 19 years

14 has been used. Again, the last rulemaking

15 that was conducted on refrigerator-freezers

16 ended in 1998, so we're looking for any

17 additional data sources that may help us

18 update this 19-year product lifetime value.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No

20 additional data or experience for that matter.

21 So I guess that assumption --

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: We'll move on to

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1 discount rates. These are used to convert

2 those future operating costs that happen

3 during the life of an appliance back to a

4 present value, and the approach that we'll try

5 to use here is the same as what we've used in

6 other residential product rulemakings, that

7 is, to determine the discount rate based upon

8 the finance cost of purchasing the product.

9 That finance cost is based upon

10 basically two things, either any debt that's

11 incurred to purchase the appliance, for

12 example, if someone uses a credit card or a

13 home equity loan or the interest rate

14 associated with the opportunity cost of money

15 pulled from equity, like savings accounts,

16 money market funds, stocks, bonds, that type

17 of thing.

18 So again, there's two types of

19 forms that we typically look at to try to come

20 up with this discount rate. And all this

21 information or most of this information is

22 found in the Federal Reserve Board's Survey of

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1 Consumer Finances. And there's one that's

2 probably going to be released very, very soon

3 and what we do is we look at all the past

4 survey of consumer finances to see how this

5 change in debt and equity purchases changes

6 over time, so that's captured in the analysis.

7 So we're looking for any input on

8 this planned approach for determining discount

9 rates.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We almost

11 always get comments on discount rates. Any

12 comments at this time on discount rats?

13 Do you all need to have lunch now?

14 (Laughter.)

15 I would like to provide another

16 opportunity for any comments on discount rates

17 and then we'll assess where we are with the

18 agenda.

19 Okay. So then, it's 12:20 about. 

20 Just so we know, Greg, you're supposed to

21 proceed with shipments analysis next. How

22 long do you think the shipments analysis

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1 segment would take?

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Probably, you

3 know, a half an hour.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Half hour,

5 okay. And then comes manufacturer impact

6 analysis. That's listed as 15. Do you think

7 that's realistic?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And then

10 following that, utility and the investment

11 needed, another 15 to a half an hour there?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So we have

14 an hour and 15 minutes of work left ahead of

15 us before we complete what's scheduled in the

16 agenda and then closing remarks after that. 

17 So I'm going to suggest we break for lunch. 

18 It's almost 12:25. Let's go and break now,

19 and we will resume at 1:25. This room will be

20 locked, so you can leave your stuff, and

21 please, as I said before, wear your badges

22 while you're in the building. Please don't

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1 leave the Forrestal Building because you won't

2 make it back on time, and we will resume at

3 1:25.

4 There's a large cafeteria across

5 the street. You need to go down to the ground

6 level and there will be a whole host of people

7 heading in that direction, so you can all head

8 together down and have lunch and we'll see you

9 back here at 1:25. We've covered a lot of

10 ground already today, thanks so much. We'll

11 continue to do that when we return.

12 (Whereupon, at 12:23 p.m., the

13 framework public meeting was recessed, to

14 reconvene at 1:32 p.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1 A F T E R N O O N P R O C E E D I N G S

2 1:32 P.M.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for

4 being back here on time so we continue with

5 the meeting.

6 So where we left off was, I

7 believe, with Greg and about to embark upon

8 shipments analysis, correct?

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: That is right.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That would

11 be Slide 106 for those of you that are

12 tracking this slide by slide.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'll start up and

14 as Doug said, I'm going to be talking next

15 about the shipments analysis. It's the second

16 to last step in the analyses that are

17 conducted for the ANOPR.

18 The purpose, the main purpose of

19 the shipments analysis is to determine the

20 effect of standards on product shipments under

21 the base case, that is the case without

22 standards. We rely on various data sources to

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1 develop a shipments model in order to forecast

2 these shipments and the impact of standards on

3 them. One of the key inputs to the model, of

4 course, is the historical shipments data

5 because part of developing the model is

6 calibrating it to actual real shipments data.

7 The model again is developed to

8 cover only those products that are covered by

9 this rule-making, that is, refrigerators or

10 refrigerator-freezers and freezers. And again

11 it does two primary things, the shipments

12 model, it forecasts shipments and over the

13 forecast period that we're looking at and it

14 also does a stock inventory of the units that

15 come into the housing stock and it also tracks

16 the vintage or age of that equipment. And the

17 reason why that's important is that because

18 several of the inputs to the national impact

19 analysis which comes after the shipments

20 analysis are dependent upon the age of the

21 equipment.

22 So again, the first part of the

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1 shipments analysis is to develop what we call

2 base case shipments forecasts and again, these

3 are the shipments forecast under the situation

4 where there are no new standards. What

5 happens in the base case is that we account

6 for in the case of refrigerator-freezers two

7 primary markets. One are the sales to new

8 construction and the other are sales for

9 replacements for failed units.

10 For new construction, the way we

11 basically calculate that is by taking new

12 housing starts and multiply them by product

13 saturation rates in new housing and we get

14 those new housing starts from the Energy

15 Administration's Annual Energy Outlook and we

16 get the product saturation data from the

17 residential energy consumption survey and also

18 the AHAM Fact Book does offer up some

19 information on this as well.

20 For replacements, what we do there

21 is we got the stock of units that we're

22 tracking in our shipments model and we apply

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1 these retirement functions to them to figure

2 out when the equipment fails. Those

3 retirement functions are based upon lifetime

4 estimates done for the life-cycle cost and

5 payback period analysis.

6 Again, one of the key parts of

7 this whole shipments analysis is calibrating

8 them to historical shipments. And so what we

9 do is we look at how our model is forecast in

10 historical values, that is the backcasts and

11 again we calibrate them to the historical

12 shipments by in the case of refrigerator13 freezers will probably be using early

14 replacements. So by tallying up again the

15 shipments that were forecasting to new

16 construction and replacements, we compare that

17 to the historical shipments values and any

18 discrepancy we'll probably attribute to early

19 replacements.

20 Now what we're going to do and the

21 plan for the base case forecasts is to develop

22 shipments forecast for four primary

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1 categories. The first are standard size

2 refrigerator-freezers. The second is standard

3 size freezers. The third is compact

4 refrigerator-freezers and the fourth are

5 compact freezers. After we've developed the

6 base case shipments forecasts for each one of

7 these categories, we'll then disaggregate them

8 into their specific product classes. And what

9 we're hoping to obtain from stakeholders and

10 particularly the industry is product class

11 market share data so we can again disaggregate

12 these shipments in these four product

13 categories to each one of the product classes.

14 And this slide shows you the type

15 of data that we're hoping to obtain from the

16 industry. Again, the AHAM Fact Book and the

17 plant's magazine gives us historical shipments

18 data for the four primary categories here, but

19 what it doesn't give us is the product

20 shipments by product class. So again, what

21 we're looking for is again the percentage of

22 shipments that are allocated to each one of

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1 these product classes.

2 This is a stopping point because

3 item 91 is on here, just to note that again. 

4 We're going to be looking for that type of

5 information from the industry.

6 After developing our base case

7 shipments forecast, we then develop shipments

8 for the standards case, that is the case when

9 standards are in place. And we use the exact

10 same data that we used for the base case

11 shipments forecast to estimate standards case

12 shipments forecast with the important

13 difference in that we're going to be trying to

14 take into account the purchase price increases

15 due to standards, as well as the standards

16 impact on operating cost savings, again,

17 trying to estimate how consumer purchase

18 decisions are affected when you have an

19 increase in purchase price and when you have

20 operating cost savings.

21 Now this is a fairly difficult

22 thing to do and there's not much literature on

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1 the subject of how consumers react to

2 increases in purchase prices and decreases in

3 operating costs.

4 So DOE may conduct this analysis by just using

5 scenarios, that is, estimating what would

6 happen to the shipments as a result of

7 implementing a standard. 

8 Another thing that we try to

9 consider as well are the impact from market10 pull programs, that is, things like tax

11 credits and Energy Star. And so we'll be

12 looking for information on market-pull

13 programs to see how they might change in the

14 future to influence standards case shipments.

15 Which leads us to the first --

16 next request for comment in the shipments

17 analysis and item 92 speaks to, again, this

18 impact of standards on shipments. And as part

19 of the preliminary manufacture impact

20 analysis, DOE will be looking for input from

21 manufacturers on this particular topic. We'll

22 also be welcoming any input that any other

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1 stakeholders may provide.

2 And then the next item talks about

3 the information on market-pull programs that

4 we'd like to try to receive. Again, what will

5 happen in the future with things like Energy

6 Star and tax credits and how they might

7 influence future shipments of these products

8 when a standard is developed.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So comments

10 on those two questions?

11 Yes, Ed.

12 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. Your

13 request to comment on 93, is that in the 2014

14 and beyond time frame or is that between now

15 and 2014?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: We'd like to try

17 to estimate what those programs would do when

18 the standard becomes effective, after it

19 becomes effective. Of course, one way of

20 doing that is to see what sort of impact

21 they're currently having, so --

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So maybe

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1 there's some more generalizable information

2 starting at market-pull just for example.

3 So maybe we shouldn't have taken

4 lunch.

5 (Laughter.)

6 Just kidding. I know we needed

7 it.

8 We have two questions on the table here, 92

9 and 93. The impact of standards on shipments

10 and also market-pull programs. Thoughts on

11 those two items?

12 (No response.)

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: We'll move on

14 then to the last analysis that's conducted for

15 the ANOPR which is the national impact

16 analysis. The purpose of this analysis is to

17 estimate the national energy savings and the

18 national economic impacts that you get from

19 these particular standard levels that we'll be

20 analyzing.

21 The basic method is to calculate

22 these national energy savings on annual basis

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1 on the national economic impacts on annual

2 basis over the forecast period that we'll be

3 analyzing and then accumulating that into

4 total savings and total impacts.

5 Again, we'll be using a model, a

6 spreadsheet model that as its basis will be

7 the shipments model. And again, that

8 shipments model accounts for the stock of

9 units that are coming into the housing stock,

10 again, keeping track of the vintage of that

11 stock because many of the input variables to

12 this analysis are dependent upon the age of

13 the equipment.

14 We utilize a lot of these inputs

15 from the life-cycle cost analysis, for

16 example, we take the per unit energy

17 consumption data to estimate national energy

18 savings and we take the per unit installed

19 cost and operating cost data to estimate the

20 national Net Present Value.

21 We report national energy savings

22 in quads or quadrillion BTUs and rather than

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1 calculating things at the site as is done in

2 the life-cycle cost analysis, we do things at

3 the source. That is, we take into account the

4 transmission and distribution of the

5 electricity, as well as the power plant

6 efficiency, to get the source energy

7 consumption.

8 With regard to economic impacts

9 for the Net Present Value, we do that and

10 calculate that in dollars and again, because

11 these costs are occurring over this forecast

12 period we use discount rates to bring that

13 back to a present value.

14 This is a diagram, a flow chart,

15 if you will, to demonstrate how the national

16 energy savings are determined and I'll to go

17 over this real quickly. We start with the

18 shipments analysis which gives us our base

19 case and standards case forecasts of

20 shipments. In the case of the base case

21 again, we're calculating the base case annual

22 energy consumption on an annual basis from the

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1 assumed effective date of the standard, 2014,

2 all the way out 30 years to the end of the

3 forecast period. 

4 Again, since our shipments model

5 keeps track of the stock in the housing stock,

6 we're able to calculate the annual energy

7 consumption due to all of the refrigerators in

8 the stock. We do that again for the base case

9 situation without standards and the standards

10 case situation with standards.

11 We then apply site-to-source

12 energy conversion factors to take that site

13 energy consumption and convert it to source

14 energy consumption. And then we cumulate the

15 energy consumption in the base case and in the

16 standards case and then taking the difference

17 gives us the national energy savings.

18 This flow chart goes over what

19 again, quickly, what we do to determine the

20 National Net Present Value and again it's

21 similar in looking to what we do with the

22 national energy savings. Again, we start with

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1 the shipments analysis which gives us our base

2 case and standards case forecasts of

3 shipments. And in the case of the base case

4 what we're doing rather than calculating

5 energy consumption as we were doing for the

6 national energy savings, we're calculating the

7 energy costs, the maintenance and repair costs

8 and the equipment costs of all of the

9 refrigerators in the housing stock annually

10 from 2014, the assumed effective date of the

11 standard, all the way out for 30 years to the

12 end of the forecast period.

13 Again, we do that for both the

14 base case and the standards case, since again

15 this is a forecast or a time series of values. 

16 We apply discount rates to convert that back

17 to a present value. We cumulate the energy

18 costs, maintenance, and repair costs into

19 operating costs for the base case. We do the

20 same for the standards case and we take the

21 difference between those two which gives us

22 the cumulative operating cost savings due to

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1 the standard.

2 We do the exact same thing on the

3 equipment cost which gives us a cumulative

4 total equipment cost increase, and then we

5 look at the difference between those two

6 values. If the operating cost savings are

7 greater than the equipment cost increases,

8 then we have a benefit to the nation from the

9 standard. If it's the other way around, we

10 have a burden to the nation due to the

11 standard, an economic burden.

12 Now as I told you before, many of

13 the inputs to the analysis are dependent upon

14 the efficiency of the products that we assume

15 and again, a key component to this analysis is

16 a shipment weighted efficiency of these

17 products over time. Again, as I've said

18 before, the per unit annual energy consumption

19 is a function of efficiency and it's used to

20 generate the national energy savings and the

21 retail price and per unit annual operating

22 costs are again used to develop the NPV and

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1 again, both of those are dependent upon

2 efficiency.

3 Now we do have historical trends

4 of product efficiency from the AHAM fact book,

5 but it's for all refrigerator-freezers and

6 what we can do with that is looking at that

7 trend of data we can try to forecast what

8 might happen into the future. And that's what

9 we'll probably end up doing when we try to

10 estimate what happens to these shipment

11 weighted efficiencies under the base case,

12 that is the case without standards.

13 But ideally, we'd like to do this

14 on a product class level, but we're hoping to

15 get the same type of shipment weighted

16 efficiency data not only for all

17 refrigerators, but disaggregated down to a

18 product class level.

19 And that's what this slide speaks

20 to. It speaks to again the requests we're

21 going to be making to the industry for

22 shipment weighted efficiency data for as many

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1 of the product classes as possible and I know

2 this is a lot of information, but again, we're

3 hoping to get as much information as

4 available.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Debra?

6 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM. 

7 Really, just to reiterate a couple of comments

8 from earlier, certainly AHAM is willing to

9 provide this information, although for a

10 limited number of product classes, we cannot

11 do it for all because we do not collect

12 information for all. And also, it will be a

13 limited number of years, certainly, going back

14 to 1990 isn't going to be realistic.

15 Strictly our data that we keep

16 just day-to-day retention and all that is

17 about 2005. And in our comments, we can let

18 you know more specifically which product

19 classes we can provide you information.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: The next slide

21 talks about how to estimate, again, how

22 standards affect these shipment weighted

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1 efficiencies and we do that by looking at

2 market share efficiency data. And this is the

3 same thing as the base case efficiency

4 distributions that I was describing back in

5 the life-cycle cost analysis. And what these

6 distributions or these market share efficiency

7 data tell us is how consumers are currently

8 purchasing these products and therefore

9 yielding a distribution of product

10 efficiencies.

11 Again, this gives us insight as to

12 how possibly a standard would impact the

13 efficiency of products and in the past, DOE

14 has typically used a roll-up scenario where a

15 standard may -- when a standard is applied,

16 all the products below that standard roll up

17 to that efficiency level and all the products

18 above that efficiency level are unaffected. 

19 We then recalculate then the shipment weighted

20 energy efficiency from that redone

21 distribution and then we forecast that out

22 into the future, typically, with the same sort

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1 of efficiency trend that we use in the base

2 case.

3 Again, this is all important

4 because again, we use the shipment weight

5 efficiency trends, both in the base case and

6 in the standards case to estimate how these

7 different energy consumption and costs change

8 over the time period, over this forecast

9 analysis period.

10 So this slide comes back to our

11 request, again reiterating our request for

12 historical shipment weighted efficiency data

13 as well as this market share efficiency data

14 or base case efficiency distribution data. 

15 And again, we're trying to get this data for

16 as many of the product classes as possible.

17 And the last item here talks about

18 just any general comments you might have on

19 this approach to calculating national impacts.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So you can

21 see the request for comment there. 

22 MR. OSANN: May I make a comment?

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please, Ed.

2 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. This would

3 probably point to item 10-2 to observe the

4 points that were made earlier, that the

5 national impact analysis does not have

6 consideration of price mitigation effects of

7 standards and does not have -- does not

8 capture any benefits for consumers who are not

9 purchasing new refrigerators. Those would be

10 worthwhile additions.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 Other comments on these two queries?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, that brings

14 us to the end of the analyses that are

15 conducted for the ANOPR and now we'll be

16 turning the rest of the presentation over to

17 the analyses that are conducted for the NOPR.

18 And this is a flow diagram that

19 you saw at the beginning of the day which

20 outlines the steps in the standards rule21 making process and again, we're focusing here

22 on the NOPR analyses which consist of

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1 revisions to the ANOPR analyses based upon

2 stakeholder comment and input. Then in

3 addition to that, life-cycle cost subgroup

4 analysis, a manufacturer impact analysis,

5 utility impact analysis, employment impact

6 analysis, environmental assessment, and

7 regulatory impact analysis.

8 I'll be focusing now next on the

9 life-cycle cost subgroup analysis.

10 The main purpose of this analysis

11 is to look at particular subgroups of

12 consumers who may be disproportionately

13 impacted by a standard. And the way we do

14 that is basically using the same analytical

15 tools that we use for the general population,

16 but hone it down to only those populations

17 that could be disproportionately impacted. 

18 And in the past, DOE has looked at low-income

19 consumers and senior-only households as

20 different consumer subgroups.

21 So the request here from

22 stakeholders -- I must have gone too far.

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1 This is not the appropriate item

2 box. It doesn't look like it at least, but

3 what it's supposed to request is any input

4 from stakeholders on particular subgroups that

5 the Department should focus in on when

6 conducting this analysis.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And

8 particularly any that they haven't noted so

9 far.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Consumer

12 subgroups. 

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, with that,

14 I'm going to give the stage over here to

15 Constantin von Wentzel to talk about the

16 manufacturer impact analysis. 

17 MR. von WENTZEL: Good afternoon. 

18 So in the NOPR phase the manufacture impact

19 analysis focuses on the impacts on

20 manufacturers and delves into a great deal

21 more detail than it did in the preliminary

22 MIA. 

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1 One of the tools we use for that

2 is the government regulatory impact model

3 which basically is a cash-flow model which

4 looked at the impacts that standards have on

5 manufacturers in terms of investment outlays,

6 development costs, what have you, and the best

7 ways in which manufacturers can recoup those

8 investments through higher prices or what not

9 as equipment becomes more expensive,

10 potentially. So it involves interviews with

11 manufacturers and as you will see, a great

12 deal of detail on the next slide after this

13 one. 

14 So this is basically phase two and

15 three of the MIA and so we start off with a

16 straw man government regulatory impact model

17 which we present to manufacturers and

18 basically it contains manufacturer prices,

19 shipment forecasts, what not. Those are these

20 detailed spreadsheets with cost versus

21 efficiency curves and what have you and we

22 have a number of interview topics as you can

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1 see that basically center around the actual

2 implementation of standards.

3 And those obviously -- the

4 conversion costs are going to be very

5 important. The consolidation impacts on

6 employees, what have you.

7 And then in phase three, we have

8 another set of manufacturing interviews which

9 basically focus on the implementation which is

10 to say if manufacturing facilities have to be

11 retooled in order to manufacture more

12 efficient equipment, what the impacts are in

13 manufacturers and other investments they have

14 to make. And we also focus on subgroups of

15 manufacturers that might be disproportionately

16 affected because let's say they only make

17 refrigerators. That's all they do and they're

18 very focused on manufacturing refrigerators

19 and they have other competitors which are much

20 more diverse in terms of the product portfolio

21 and therefore not have the same kinds of

22 impacts facing them.

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1 So the cumulative regulatory

2 burden is another large topic in these

3 discussions, as you can see. There have been

4 a number of different standards have affected

5 manufacturers in the refrigeration business

6 and so this is just a quick list of them. So

7 we seek comment regarding any manufacturer

8 subgroups that you feel we should analyze

9 separately in our manufacturer impact

10 analysis. And item 12.2, what regulations

11 that we didn't cover in the previous law that

12 we should also consider in our MIA.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As the

14 Department considers regulatory burden.

15 Additional comments or I should

16 say comments on 12.1 and 12.2?

17 Debra?

18 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 

19 All I would reiterate on item 12-2 is what we

20 had said earlier regarding some regulation,

21 would be alternative refrigerants, a new

22 climate change and then also any regulation of

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1 chemicals by the EPA.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

3 Other pending regulations that

4 people would reference here for the

5 Department? 

6 Ed?

7 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. Can anyone

8 comment on the anti-circumvention rule-making,

9 what form that's likely to take, what form

10 content timetable, anything?

11 MR. STAS: Ed Stas, DOE. I really

12 can't comment on the final form of the

13 document. It is undergoing internal review

14 within the Department so it's moving along.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What is

16 that anti-circumvention thing?

17 MR. STAS: Rule-making that would

18 address, I guess, how manufacturers comply

19 with the test procedures. Is that the best

20 way that they're meeting the intent and spirit

21 of the procedures and not, I guess, to try to

22 eliminate loopholes is the best

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1 characterization.

2 MR. OSANN: Apologies if I missed

3 this, but has there been a draft published or

4 are we still in the predraft stage?

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Eric?

6 MR. STAS: Is it a final rule or

7 not?

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Michael

9 McCabe.

10 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe,

11 Department of Energy. This was strictly

12 prerule status. A draft has been prepared

13 being reviewed within the Department. There

14 have been some significant discussions on it

15 and which will affect schedules at this point

16 in time. We do not have a date as to when a

17 proposed rule will be published.

18 MR. OSANN: Is it specific for

19 refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, or is it

20 more general, generally applicable to NAECA21 covered products?

22 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. 

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1 Looking at general rules that would apply to

2 our products that are covered in 10 CFR part

3 430 which are the residential or consumer

4 products as well as the commercial industrial

5 products that are covered in 10 CFR part 431.

6 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis, DOE. 

7 That's not to be confused with -- we certainly

8 would be looking at that specific to

9 refrigerators in this activity on

10 refrigerators that we're doing as well, but

11 there's a broader-scoped document that's in

12 preparation that you'll hear more about later.

13 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

14 from Whirlpool. I understand you don't have

15 a specific date. Do you have a time frame? 

16 Can you say a month, three months?

17 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. I

18 wish I could say because every time we come up

19 with a date for -- often when we come up with

20 a target date for rule-makings for one reason

21 or another we miss some. There were a number

22 of rule-makings that we have on the table

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1 right now. We have a -- we're looking at a

2 change in Administration. We're looking at

3 budgets. We're looking at staff changes. 

4 There are a variety of factors that will

5 likely affect the schedules for all the rule6 makings, priorities being juggled and the

7 like. At this point, I can't come up with a

8 time frame. I'm hoping that we can address

9 the issues internally and get this thing out

10 as quickly as possible.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,

12 Michael.

13 So are there questions or comments

14 on these two issues, manufacturer subgroups

15 and issues, regulations, issues and related to

16 cumulative regulatory burden.

17 MR. von WENTZEL: Okay, Greg, back

18 to you.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, in the next

20 analysis is the utility impact analysis. The

21 purpose of this is to estimate the impacts of

22 standards on energy supply and suppliers. In

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1 the case of refrigerator-freezers it would be

2 restricted to electricity suppliers.

3 The tool that DOE has used to

4 conduct this analysis is EIA's national energy

5 modeling system or NEMS. And this is used by

6 EIA to develop all the annual energy forecasts

7 that it's produced. 

8 Again, like I said before, this is

9 a tool that we've used for past rule-makings,

10 maybe extending almost to 20 years. Outputs

11 of the utility analysis are to include

12 forecasts of electricity prices and sales, as

13 well as to install -- as well as install

14 generation capacity, that is, how the standard

15 affects the electricity demand for electricity

16 in the United States.

17 And the way we conduct the

18 analysis is that we'll be inputting the

19 national energy savings we get from the

20 national impact analysis into the NEMS model

21 and then compare what happens to these

22 forecasts in this standards case run as

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1 compared to the reference or base case.

2 So the first comment we're looking

3 for is basically how do people feel about us

4 continuing to use the NEMS model to conduct

5 this analysis and second, whether or not there

6 are any alternatives out there for conducting

7 this analysis.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Ed.

9 MR. OSANN: Can you describe a

10 little bit how NEMS would roll up energy

11 savings to give you a peek into savings

12 forecast?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, one of the

14 lines in NEMS, like I said before, sales which

15 is basically terawatt-hours and then another

16 line is install generation capacity basically

17 in gigawatts. So we can determine with NEMS

18 how the installed generation capacity changes

19 on an annual basis so for every year we can

20 see how many less gigawatts are needed to

21 provide electricity to the country due to the

22 standard.

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1 This would be done by trial

2 standard level, so it would include -- this

3 would be for the entire product. It would

4 include all product classes. We would be

5 estimating the effect of standards for all

6 product classes.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other

8 comments on NEMS and other approaches, other

9 than NEMS BT?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, our next

11 analysis is the employment impact analysis and

12 the purpose of this analysis is to assess how

13 standards impact the overall national

14 employment in the United States and just to

15 clarify, things here, when we talk about

16 employment impacts, we talk about both direct

17 and indirect impacts. The direct impacts are

18 determined in the manufacturer impact

19 analysis. These are the direct impacts to

20 manufacturers who manufacture these products.

21 The indirect employment impacts

22 are resulting from shifting consumer

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1 expenditures for different types of goods and

2 services and how that ripples its way through

3 the economy and changes the way employment is

4 affected by these standards. 

5 The method that DOE plans to use

6 is a tool, is by marrying this with a tool

7 called ImSET. And this is a model that's been

8 prepared the Pacific Northwest National

9 Laboratory. Prior versions of it were called

10 IMBUILD. And again, we've used this tool for

11 the last several standards rule-makings that

12 the Department has conducted. And again, this

13 is a basic input/output spreadsheet model that

14 looks at how these changes in standards affect

15 different sectors of the U.S. economy.

16 Again, we're looking for any input

17 on this approach using ImSET to estimate

18 indirect employment impacts.

19 I'll move on then to the

20 environmental impact analysis or what's also

21 called the environmental assessment and the

22 purpose of this analysis is to estimate how

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1 standards will impact the airborne emissions

2 coming out of power plants that generate

3 electricity in the United States. And the

4 intention here is to use the same tool that we

5 use for the utility impact analysis, that is,

6 that's NEMS. NEMS again, in addition to

7 providing forecasts of electricity sales and

8 installed generation capacity, it also

9 provides forecasts of different airborne

10 emissions from power plants, including carbon

11 dioxide, sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, and

12 mercury.

13 Again, so for carbon dioxide

14 again, NEMS can be used to assess exactly how

15 these standards are going to impact these

16 airborne emissions. And DOE is also going to

17 be considering how to monetize these emissions

18 for the analysis. For sulphur dioxide, there

19 have been caps in place that cap emissions

20 from power plants since 1993 through Clean Air

21 Act amendments. So standards won't have

22 really any measurable impact on emissions of

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1 SO2. What they do have an impact on is the

2 SO2 trading price or allowance price. So

3 that's something that could also be considered

4 in the analysis.

5 Then you have nitrogen oxides and

6 recently there's been court actions to vacate

7 what was called the Clean Air Interstate rule

8 which would have capped on nitrogen oxide

9 emissions in 28 states and the District of

10 Columbia. Now that that has been vacated, DOE

11 is looking into input as to how to address

12 nitrogen oxide emissions in this analysis.

13 And the same goes for mercury. 

14 Again, there the court's vacated the clean air

15 mercury rule which would have capped mercury

16 emissions nationwide and again the Department

17 is looking for input as to how to estimate the

18 impacts of standards on these types of

19 emissions.

20 And this just goes down the list

21 of issues that DOE is looking for input on. 

22 The first is any input on how to monetize CO2

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1 emissions. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And then

3 moving on from there.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: The next is

5 again, like I mentioned, how the Clean Air

6 Interstate rule has been vacated. Any input

7 on how the Department should address nitrogen

8 oxides in this analysis and 15.3 talks about

9 the same thing but for mercury because of the

10 fact that the clean air mercury rule has been

11 vacated.

12 Next item just talks about the

13 general -- we're looking for general input

14 about using NEMS to conduct this analysis. 

15 Are there any other approaches besides NEMS

16 that the Department should look into for

17 example and finally, are there any other

18 environmental factors that DOE should consider

19 besides the four types of airborne emissions

20 that were listed previously.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So the

22 whole issue of monetization and you can see

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1 the four of them listed and the other

2 environmental factors to be considered. 

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Finally, we come

4 to the last step which is the regulatory

5 impact analysis.

6 MR. OSANN: Can I ask a question? 

7 On the environmental impact analysis -- this

8 is Ed Osann. In some other rule-makings, DOE

9 has applied a discount rate to non-monetary

10 units including environmental -- including

11 emissions, I believe. Is there any intention

12 to apply a discount rate to anything other

13 than financial metrics in this rulemaking and

14 if so, what would it be?

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: In the past rule16 makings, DOE used the 7 percent discount rate

17 in compliance with OMB guidelines. I don't

18 know if DOE will continue to discount physical

19 emissions for this rule-making.

20 MR. OSANN: What's the purpose of

21 the application of applying a discount rate to

22 non-monetary elements of analysis?

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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I'm

2 speaking for DOE here, but it's just another

3 way to value those emissions. I mean rather

4 than using a dollar value, DOE is actually

5 applying the discount rate directly to the

6 emissions themselves.

7 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis, DOE. I

8 think at this point if you've got suggestions

9 or something that you want to make, we'll take

10 them, but as far as what we're going to do,

11 this is the kickoff of starting this rule12 making and we're not here to dialogue what the

13 final resolution is. If you've got

14 recommendations we would be happy to receive

15 them.

16 MR. CHURCH: This is Steve Church

17 from Whirlpool. Quick question. How does

18 mercury emissions play into refrigeration

19 standards?

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's strictly

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1 fired power plants emit mercury. 

2 So the regulatory impact analysis,

3 the last analytical step and again the purpose

4 of this analysis to look at non-regulatory

5 alternatives to mandatory efficiency standards

6 and some of these non-regulatory alternatives

7 are market-pull programs like Energy Star or

8 tax credits, both manufacturer and consumer

9 test credits. And again, the idea here is to

10 try to assess what those potential national

11 energy savings and any potential financial

12 impacts to the country would be due to these

13 non-regulatory alternatives and they compare

14 them to the mandatory standards.

15 When trying to evaluate the impact

16 of these market-pull programs, we actually

17 would want to try to use recent historical

18 experiences as to what sort of effect these

19 different regulatory, non-regulatory

20 alternatives could have on the market.

21 And that's it for the NOPR

22 analyses.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So then

2 this is another opportunity for any of you

3 that wishes to make additional comments, final

4 comments, raise other issues for the

5 Department's consideration and want to provide

6 that opportunity now.

7 Debra.

8 MS. BRUNK: Debra Bruck with AHAM. 

9 First of all, I want to thank the Department

10 of Energy for the opportunity to present

11 comments here today and for the work of

12 Navigant Consulting with putting all this

13 together and the work that they will be doing.

14 We have just a couple of comments. 

15 I think in general we're a little bit

16 concerned with how late this has come out and

17 just from an industry standpoint I want to

18 make sure that we recognize that there's a lot

19 of work here and I think it's good work and

20 it's all things that need to be looked at to

21 ensure that this rule-making is thorough as

22 possible. We will provide as much information

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1 as we can certainly, but we do just want to

2 make sure that we do follow the process as

3 much as possible, recognizing that there are

4 multiple rule-makings ongoing and that kind of

5 thing.

6 I think the other thing that we

7 would very much appreciate, I think all of us

8 are in the same boat on this, but once we do

9 have some idea I think of what DOE's schedule

10 is on this rule-making and others, because

11 there's so much going on, I think if we could

12 get a sense of that, that would be very

13 helpful.

14 Thank you.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

16 Other comments? Closing remarks?

17 Ed, please.

18 MR. OSANN: Ed Osann. I think

19 this is close to what AHAM was moving to. We

20 had several ASAP partners who were not able to

21 attend this workshop because of the lateness

22 of the announcement relative to the meeting

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1 date. Barely two weeks as I recall, which is

2 difficult for some people, particularly,

3 people who are public employees to make

4 arrangements for travel.

5 We certainly don't want to hold up

6 compliance with any of the mandatory

7 deadlines, but there really does need to be

8 better advanced notice of public meetings.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Other closing remarks or issues people wish to

11 raise?

12 So then from my perspective, I'm

13 going to turn it back to Ron Lewis and in your

14 stack of papers, there's an evaluation form. 

15 Please take the time to fill it out. The

16 Department tries very hard to do their best

17 for these meetings so that we can continue to

18 improve them.

19 Ron Lewis.

20 MR. LEWIS: Just a couple of

21 responses to the last comments here. One is

22 we apologize for short notice. It certainly

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1 is not our preference to give short notice. 

2 There are an awful lot of documents and we're

3 the technical program that does the analysis

4 and so much used to -- did come through the

5 Federal Register process and give you the

6 notice. It's a huge task to try to get all

7 these fit in and available and we're not

8 trying to by any means give you short notice. 

9 We're trying to get them done in the time that

10 we've allowed this particular rule-making as

11 a statutory time that Congress gave us. That

12 is not what we would have chosen ourselves. 

13 It's being worked in with many, many other

14 rule-makings that are going on simultaneously.

15 So the schedule, the one thing

16 that is set that we need to comply with is

17 December 31, 2010 is the time it has to hatch

18 as being the final rule and the time to get

19 input, the reason we have these framework

20 document meetings is that's the starter's gun

21 saying okay, we're ready, here are our

22 thoughts here's what we've got already that

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1 we've collected from our standpoint to frame

2 this out and scope it out. We've got a very

3 limited amount of time to do this.

4 And in that regard, in putting

5 this together, just in the time since we put

6 it together, there's discussions under way and

7 unfortunately I didn't catch it in these

8 slides in advance, but the discussion about an

9 ANOPR, even looking at if there's not a more

10 streamline version of having interaction,

11 getting the input, having the dialogue with

12 stakeholders, with something other than an

13 ANOPR in the process. 

14 We've got such a limited amount of

15 time. We've got numerous requests for adding

16 additional analyses, doing all kinds of other

17 considerations, adding new product classes,

18 trying to get that all done is extremely

19 difficult, so we're working hard. I guarantee

20 you that. We're giving you as much notice as

21 we could possibly work out with getting this

22 out of the process and getting it published. 

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1 We really appreciate your being

2 here today and we appreciate all the input and

3 the sense of urgency. Everybody has got an

4 input of get it done quicker, get everything

5 done, give us as much advance notice. Well,

6 on the same thought pattern we need time too. 

7 So if you've got input, you've got data. We

8 sure could use it real quick. There's barely

9 enough time to do it once without having to go

10 back and redo it. So we really appreciate

11 your consideration there too on the sense of

12 urgency and this is the starting point. It's

13 taken us a while to get together this so we

14 could call this meeting and have everybody

15 come in. We've got a long way to go before

16 it's a final rule. This is an important and

17 a complex rule-making and we need your input

18 to get it right. We want to make sure we give

19 it full consideration, all the issues at hand. 

20 So please get those in your comments and be --

21 just consider the time that we've got to get

22 it done as well.

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1 Thanks for being here and stay

2 tuned because we've got a lot of these

3 meetings going on. We had commercial

4 refrigeration last week. We've got this one. 

5 We've got a whole schedule of these popping

6 up. So we hope to see you at the next one.

7 (Whereupon, at 2:19 p.m., the

8 meeting was concluded.) 

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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A

ability 75:11 92:19

able 23:2,3 91:18,19

96:22 97:3 99:9

111:9 115:16

130:6 134:12

141:1,2 170:6

198:20

above-entitled

74:15

absence 142:2

absolute 96:11

acceptable 10:16

accommodate

28:22

accompanies 8:8

account 110:16

111:12 118:8,10

118:13,16 139:9

151:10,12 161:5

164:14 169:3

accounts 127:17

155:15 168:8

accumulating 168:3

accuracy 30:15

ACEEE 105:8

141:7

achieve 76:17

113:20

achieved 109:15

achieving 122:16

acknowledging

36:5

acoustic 71:7

acoustics 10:18

acquire 115:4

Act 15:2,21 32:1

191:21

actions 192:6

active 50:20

activity 185:9

actual 30:6 50:4

79:9 134:18

148:20 152:8

160:6 181:1

adaptive 70:3

add 22:4 43:8 58:2

73:7 127:20 131:5

144:12,16

added 13:9 41:15

adding 66:20 72:4

93:3 201:15,17

addition 46:2 53:8

61:16 113:10

178:3 191:6

additional 15:19

22:15 25:12 36:22

41:14 43:5 46:20

48:16 49:11 51:16

58:22 65:4 68:1

69:20 73:22 78:5

78:10 83:11

101:18 102:5

111:14 113:17

115:18 118:22

131:2 147:14

151:16 154:5,17

154:20 182:15

197:3 201:16

Additionally 97:17

additions 177:10

address 23:5 42:5

48:14 50:10,14

55:11 82:11 83:15

98:4 112:11 151:8

151:9 183:18

186:8 192:11

193:7

addressed 42:12

addresses 82:9

86:14

addressing 40:22

43:3

Adjourn 3:25

adjusted 28:22

84:11,17,21

adjustment 83:2

84:6 85:2,5,18

127:17

adjustments 70:1

Administration

150:2 186:2

Administration's

125:17 145:3

161:15

ado 4:12

adopt 49:10

adopted 33:3,5

39:16,18

adoption 43:10

advance 43:12

201:8 202:5

advanced 16:8 18:2

199:8

advantage 20:13

advocates 94:1

AEEE 22:4

AEO 132:12 147:21

150:16 151:2

Affairs 2:19 4:14

affect 46:3 78:1

116:5,15 174:22

184:15 186:5

190:14

affiliation 5:22 21:2

afternoon 179:17

age 122:3 127:3,4

129:17 160:16,20

168:12

agency 93:22

agenda 3:3 8:3,9,15

12:22 16:12 51:20

119:7 135:8

156:18 157:16

agent 72:5

agents 116:3

aggregate 95:5 99:8

99:8 107:2,14

108:4 115:11

aggregated 106:9

108:2

aggregating 96:2

ago 4:22 54:22

agree 21:14 43:19

45:6 60:14 85:7

87:16 134:3

agreement 94:7

AHAM 6:16 21:3,4

33:5 37:20 39:21

40:1,4 42:4,8

43:10,19 45:6 49:9

50:9,14 51:4 54:10

58:17,18 60:17

66:15 67:11 71:18

71:22 76:1 81:11

82:16 83:9 86:6

98:13 99:3,13

102:14,17 104:10

107:20,22 112:19

113:3 114:19

115:7 116:17

123:17 129:5

131:20 134:1

140:21 161:18

163:16 173:4

174:6,8 182:18

197:8 198:19

AHAM's 87:16

AHAM-HRF-1

23:9

AHAM-supported

108:1

ahead 74:19 76:9

122:19 135:5

157:14

air 70:9 147:5

191:20 192:7,14

193:5,10

airborne 191:1,9,16

193:19

align 101:19

allocated 163:22

allow 18:21 23:20

26:3

allowance 36:10

150:5,8,13 192:2

allowed 20:7 30:4

200:10

allowing 23:18

allows 96:19 145:20

ally 10:11

alter 82:4

alternate 72:14,22

73:2

alternative 27:21

70:12,13,18 72:5

73:10,15 116:19

129:20 182:21

alternatives 73:18

117:16 188:6

196:5,6,13,20

AMAM-HRF-1

85:3

Amann 1:22 12:6

22:4 105:8 141:7

ambient 30:14

amendment 15:10

amendments 15:6

191:21

American 1:22 2:6

6:4 12:6

amount 26:15 201:3

201:14

analyses 15:17

16:16 17:21 18:3

18:12,14,17 19:4

19:17 35:17 51:22

52:1 53:11,18 54:6

57:20 65:2,6,8

66:7,12 75:1 76:20

106:10,12 108:9

123:3 143:8

148:18 149:3

154:9 159:16

177:14,17,22

178:1 196:22

201:16

analysis 3:11,11,13

3:15,17,17,18,19

3:21,22,22 9:7,7

9:10,13,14,15,15

9:18,19,19,21

16:19 21:8,9,19

22:9 33:17 35:16

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announcement

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annual 125:10,13

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51:22 52:1 75:1

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ANOPR/NOPR

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answer 9:5 39:8

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appliance 1:25 2:5

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appliances 15:5

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applicable 51:1

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applies 27:16 33:5

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applying 194:21

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appreciably 152:21

appreciate 108:20

132:17 198:7

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approach 23:17

29:5 54:14 81:14

82:19 84:12 86:3,9

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137:3,12 140:11

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155:4 156:8

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approaches 13:4

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appropriate 54:2,16

73:9,17 75:19 76:3

141:20 179:1

appropriately

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approve 73:13

area 62:2 69:12,14

149:20,21

areas 68:8

arithmetic 84:16

arrangements

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arrive 143:22

ASAP 47:1 198:20

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asked 94:1

asking 39:11 49:17

50:3 128:22

aspect 115:21 116:9

assembly 91:5

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assess 156:17

189:12 191:14

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assessment 3:9,22

9:6,20 52:2,6

53:11,15,22 54:4

54:15 55:20 68:6

178:6 190:21

assets 93:2,3

associated 26:7

49:11 53:3 65:12

78:10 80:20 102:4

113:17 142:5

152:6 155:14

Association 1:25

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assume 79:5 80:4

93:6 107:3 108:8

108:11 172:14

assumed 170:1

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assumes 151:2

assuming 79:19

92:15 97:5

assumption 78:22

79:4 82:21 92:6

141:15 152:20,21

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assumptions 18:16

110:13 134:21

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attend 198:21

attendees 18:15

attention 85:21

attribute 162:18

Audience 7:19

auto 24:22 89:5

automatic 24:10

29:13 59:5 60:18

65:20 67:2,2,15,15

101:14

auto-defrost 24:16

29:9

availability 75:15

available 11:2 21:20

88:15 101:1 109:6

114:2 129:20

132:7 147:22

153:1 174:4 200:7

Avenue 1:11

average 31:19 145:9

145:13 146:22

148:6,7,9,15

149:11,14

Averaging 31:16

avoids 139:7

aware 15:1 23:8

26:1 34:20 62:8

114:18 115:1,8

awareness 6:10

24:7

awful 200:2

a.m 1:9 4:2 74:16

74:17

A/C 151:6

A1 33:6

B

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62:1 74:13,20

86:14 90:8 91:10

93:8 94:11 98:16

108:17 122:11

155:3 158:2,9

159:4 169:13

171:16 174:13

175:4 176:10

186:17 199:13

202:10

backcasts 162:10

background 14:20

15:1

badge 74:11

badges 74:11

157:21

Ballo 1:23 12:1,1

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better 69:17,17

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beyond 44:6 56:20

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big 52:17 117:5

bigger 38:17,22

bill 1:24 6:19 45:9

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64:22 77:4 94:19

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bi-efficiency 120:9

blade 69:17

blades 69:17

Blanc 1:23 43:17,17

44:8 48:1 54:18,18

55:9,14 63:5 94:6

94:6 106:1,1 130:2

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block 148:12,15

blowing 72:5 116:3

Board's 155:22

boat 198:8

bond 30:19

bonds 155:16

book 123:17 161:18

163:16 173:4

bottom 26:7 31:8

38:3 42:5 44:18,21

47:10 48:3,5 49:11

49:20 57:5 63:7

101:15 129:10

144:2

bottoms-up 95:11

bottom-freezer

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bottom-mounted

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box 37:11 143:21

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brand 92:15

break 9:2,8,16,17

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BRENDA 2:11

brief 8:20,21 10:12

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briefly 8:10 40:2

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bring 35:1 44:2

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bringing 24:13 25:7

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brings 25:11 177:13

broader-scoped

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broadest 122:9

broken 68:8

Brookman 1:12,14

3:4 4:3,10 5:18

7:20 11:8 12:3,8

12:11,15 19:20

20:3,18 21:10 22:1

22:12 29:8,12

33:22 34:17 35:21

37:6,10 39:7,22

42:10,18 43:2,16

44:4 45:8,15 46:19

47:15,18,22 48:8

48:18 49:4 50:8

51:10,14 54:17

55:16 56:10 57:6

57:13,16 58:16

59:6 60:8 61:2,8

61:13 62:9,16 63:2

63:9,18 64:5,10,14

64:19 66:9 67:8,22

71:17 72:7,19 73:5

73:19 74:18 75:21

76:4 79:7,18 80:14

81:7 82:5 84:13

85:8,20 87:13 88:1

93:13 94:4,13 95:8

97:15 98:12 99:21

102:11 103:3,12

103:16 104:21

105:20 106:5

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109:10,21 110:5

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112:16,20 113:7

113:12 115:6,18

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60:14 63:19,19

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Bruck 197:8

Brunk 1:25 6:13,13

21:3,3 40:1,1

42:14,20 50:9,9

51:13 58:17,17

59:13 61:12 64:17

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131:20 134:1,1

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BT 189:9

BTUs 168:22

budgets 186:3

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calculation 41:12

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calculations 87:21

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call 11:6 48:13

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161:1 202:14

called 137:4 139:1

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calls 33:14

Canada 39:18

Canadian 40:14

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candidate 128:14

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candidates 144:8

cap 191:19

capability 24:4

capacities 88:22

capacity 134:15

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capital 79:12 93:4

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capped 192:8,15

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capture 138:13

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captured 32:9,12

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capturing 138:3

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carbon 118:13

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card 155:12

care 55:6

career 153:6

careful 69:2 70:2

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Carlo 137:5,17

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CARR 2:10

carried 36:14 83:14

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carries 67:12

carry 83:22 84:5

carrying 75:20 84:2

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case-efficiency

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cash-flow 180:3

catch 201:7

categories 27:6

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category 65:13

101:3 112:2,4

causing 116:7

caution 110:12

CEC 44:5

cell 11:11

Census 124:10

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center 48:16 181:1

certain 132:16

certainly 14:22

23:13 32:4,14 35:6

54:13 89:13,20

98:14 103:21

107:21 108:9

115:10 121:22

131:11 174:8,13

185:7 198:1 199:5

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certification 43:14

43:14

certify 27:8

CFC 116:14

CFCs 116:2

CFR 26:18 56:5

64:13 185:2,5

chain 124:1

challenges 122:16

chance 11:20

change 8:11 33:21

41:9 55:2 56:20

81:16 82:19 84:20

84:20 85:4,17

116:5,21 118:3,15

136:22 137:1

144:18,20 150:19

152:12,14,16

153:2,11 156:5

165:13 176:7

182:22 186:2

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changes 14:2,4 33:8

35:18 45:13,18

46:3,17 49:3,8

81:17,18 116:1

156:5 186:3

188:18 190:3,14

changing 45:21,22

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characterization

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characterize 18:13

52:7,9 123:21

125:10 137:9

140:15

characterized 138:8

138:11

characterizes 139:2

characterizing

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chart 78:15,16

169:14 170:18

charts 19:7

chemicals 117:14

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chest 25:1 29:9

65:20 66:5 103:4

chillers 38:10 60:16

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choose 100:14

chose 34:20

chosen 35:1 98:6

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Church 2:3 6:22,22

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45:7

clarification 20:6

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41:21 48:9 63:12

66:22 85:11

104:22 113:13

clarifies 100:9

clarify 45:21 87:17

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clarifying 42:11

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100:13 106:20,20

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113:6 128:11

129:17 138:17

163:10,20 173:14

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30:16 37:3,13

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54:13 58:12 64:15

68:2 71:9 72:9

75:18 81:8,9 86:4

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99:16 102:12

105:3 112:19

113:3 114:16

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Comments/Closing

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Commission 124:8

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commonly 91:20

compact 29:17

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companies 27:5

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Company 2:8 61:5

company's 43:9

compare 162:16

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compared 16:18

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comparing 87:1

comparison 87:4

compartment 31:11

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compartments

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competition 17:1

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competitors 181:19

complete 129:14

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completed 86:12

completely 84:16

complex 17:20

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complexity 18:7

compliance 27:9

194:17 199:6

compliant 78:21

complicated 53:13

comply 183:18

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component 70:14

71:5 172:15

components 152:4,9

comprehensive

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compressor 23:19

69:8,8,11 70:4,22

compressors 69:9

69:10 70:20

concern 45:3 99:12

concerned 43:21

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concurrently 16:9

concurs 63:5

condenser 68:22

69:13,19 70:5

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127:19

conduct 15:10

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187:4,17 188:4

193:14

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177:15,17 190:12

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188:6

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107:15 114:12

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202:21

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24:1 25:2 39:10

54:19 60:5 69:7

82:15 92:22

114:10 177:6

197:5 202:11,19

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129:14 132:21

134:5 136:1,3

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86:20 120:8,17

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38:3 47:10 62:19

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62:18

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79:10 102:21

103:2,8,14 104:20

106:21 159:8

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16:15 18:3 19:4

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16:18 76:21 79:9

79:14 88:5,8 89:7

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93:8 95:2,14 96:11

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152:1,4 155:8,9,14

162:4 164:16,20

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169:2 171:22

172:3,4,6,7 175:5

178:3,9 180:20

costs 77:17,18 78:10

79:11,12 80:2,20

89:20 90:5,21

91:17 94:9,12 96:7

120:17 125:13

135:2,8,20 136:4

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Counsel 7:6 26:10

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30:12 42:19 77:3

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130:5 136:6

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curve 76:13 78:14

80:17 121:1

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D

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data 18:16 78:2,6

83:9,11,16 88:8,15

95:5 96:3 100:17

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date 14:16,17,18

23:13 42:2 170:1

171:10 184:16

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day 5:10 9:21

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day-to-day 174:16

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deal 33:18 52:19

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130:15,20 141:19

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187:15

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137:2 138:20

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159:19 170:19

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determines 76:15

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156:8

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160:1 161:1

162:21 164:7

172:22 187:6

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163:5 166:8

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160:5 164:6

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180:6

developments

117:20

device 153:19,21

diagram 16:4 17:9

19:5 169:14

177:18

diagrams 17:19

19:10

dialogue 5:7 195:12

201:11

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92:13 136:14,19

164:13 170:16

171:21 172:5

different 24:5,6

26:6,19 31:22

32:22 37:13 38:10

38:14 40:18 44:12

44:18 46:5,12

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64:8 76:14 78:8

82:12,12 83:7 88:9

88:10,21 89:2

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116:8 122:6 126:4

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190:1,15 191:9

196:19

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164:21 199:2

201:19

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191:11,11,13,18

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directly 195:5

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163:11

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107:17 173:17

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138:7 144:14

155:1,7,20 156:8

156:11,12,16

169:12 171:16

194:9,12,16,18,21

195:5

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discrepancies 36:20

discrepancy 14:15

100:22 101:4,6

102:13,15 105:5

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128:11,16 169:4

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dividing 127:13

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25:15 34:22 39:21

41:7,8,11 50:14,17

51:8 88:13 98:18

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40:12,13 41:17,22

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72:20 73:11 75:5,8

83:22 88:6 95:11

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102:8 107:21

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173:11 175:1,10

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52:14 53:1,5,7,8

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76:17 77:10 78:9

80:21 81:6 82:17

87:6 88:6,7,9,16

90:4,5 95:20 96:14

98:10 99:14 100:3

100:9,14 101:1,12

101:17,19,20

102:10 104:4

106:17 109:5,6

110:15 113:21

114:5,20 115:12

115:15 121:1

134:19 135:22

139:1,21,22

140:14 141:8

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153:3,16 169:6

172:14,16,19

173:2,4,16,22

175:2,3,6,13,17,18

175:20 176:1,5,12

176:13,14 180:21

196:5

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92:11 105:15

124:17 132:22

133:4,11 139:10

142:3 151:2

152:13 154:12

181:12

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122:8

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25:9 55:22 56:1

60:20 69:1,4 71:7

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6:21 130:11

element 146:13

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194:22

eliminate 183:22

eliminating 22:9

email 14:12 55:10

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7:5 9:12 12:6 13:4

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176:7 184:11

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9:7 21:8 33:17

52:3 53:17,18 54:3

57:20 75:7 76:11

76:11 77:5,12,14

78:13 80:19 84:1

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113:17 115:22

119:14 123:10,11

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143:14

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119:17

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143:20 151:3,21

153:7 160:16,21

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171:8 172:3,4,7

180:9 181:12

equity 155:13,15

156:5

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120:20 153:2

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112:2

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126:18 128:19

estimate 52:19

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164:11,17 166:17

167:17 168:17,19

173:10 174:21

176:6 186:21

190:17,22 192:17

estimates 95:14

162:4

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utilize 24:5 168:14

utilizing 87:10

U.S 1:1,10 4:5 45:11

45:17 72:17

121:15 122:5,5,14

124:10 145:5

190:15

V

vacate 192:6

vacated 192:10,14

193:6,11

vacuum-insulated

68:13

valid 86:10

validate 81:1 96:19

97:7 124:13

validated 89:9

validating 89:17

90:9

value 118:5,13,17

127:4 128:6 138:2

148:14 154:18

155:4 168:20

169:9,13 170:20

171:17 195:3,4

values 81:15 84:4,9

102:21 104:14,16

111:6 128:12,17

138:11 150:13

162:10,17 171:15

172:6

valve 69:22 70:22

valves 69:21

variability 124:15

138:4,12 145:22

variable 69:9 137:8

variables 127:16

137:7,9 168:11

variety 186:4

various 137:9

159:22

verifiable 86:19

verify 75:11

version 23:9,9

37:20 41:1,6,7,20

51:7 93:6 201:10

versions 190:9

versus 79:15 80:9

91:13 180:20

viable 117:16

Victor 109:3

view 44:8 60:10

80:3 122:9 130:10

viewpoints 5:11

views 19:12

vintage 160:16

168:10

violate 107:14

vision 82:21 104:6

voice 60:11

volume 41:12 46:5

46:9 62:3 81:18

84:18 87:21

129:17

volumes 86:13

87:19 88:22 89:2

97:18,20 98:5,14

100:1,14 103:20

voluntary 101:21

102:3,9

von 1:19 3:13,20

12:13,13 79:2,2,10

79:21 94:22,22

119:4,11 121:11

121:17 122:20

179:15,17 186:17

W

wait 23:20

waiting 34:12

waivering 18:21

waivers 40:8

want 10:16 24:9

47:1 48:13 55:9

58:18 71:19 81:15

87:17 94:19 97:20

103:10 107:4

108:12 111:15

121:17 126:5,14

130:12,19 146:11

146:16 154:4

195:9 196:17

197:5,9,17 198:1

199:5 202:18

wanted 46:1 48:12

54:19 62:7 67:12

110:2,8 118:2

131:4 141:19

wants 102:17

warm 23:21 70:15

Washington 1:11

wasn't 27:11

water 65:17

way 6:1 102:19

106:13 114:9

124:13 132:9

139:2 147:22

148:14 161:10

166:19 170:2

171:11 172:9

178:13 183:20

187:17 190:2,3

195:3 201:6

202:15

ways 20:12 24:5,6

108:7 180:7

wear 74:10 157:21

web 13:19

website 5:13 11:2

21:19 23:1 102:20

weed 54:1

week 4:17 203:4

weeks 11:9 199:1

weight 95:3 176:4

weighted 145:12

172:16 173:11,15

173:22 174:22

175:19 176:12

welcome 3:2 4:4,8

4:15 32:10 81:8

124:18

welcomes 36:21

welcoming 165:22

went 27:5 46:8

74:16

Wentzel 1:19 3:13

3:20 12:13,14 79:2

79:3,10,21 94:22

95:1 119:4,11

121:11,17 122:20

179:15,17 186:17

WESLEY 2:2

Westphalen 1:19

3:8,10,12 7:10,10

22:20 25:22 29:2

29:10,14 34:8 36:2

39:9,13 48:22

51:19 55:19 56:12

57:11,15,17 58:11

64:21 68:4 74:22

76:10 80:15 82:8

85:10,19 88:4 91:8

94:15 97:9,17

100:8 104:4,15,20

106:15,21 107:3,9

108:8 111:17

112:7 113:15

115:21 119:2

we'll 5:13 6:1 8:22

9:2,4,8,16,21

10:15 11:16 12:21

23:3 33:16 37:2

54:9 62:6 65:2

74:10,13 76:9

83:15 100:11

111:12 113:12

119:9 124:3,4,5,9

124:15 126:2,2,6

126:15,18 127:4

135:8,14 139:15

146:1,7 154:22

155:4 156:17

158:8,10 162:18

163:7 165:11,21

167:13,19 168:2,5

173:9 177:15

187:18 195:9

we're 4:18,20,22 5:7

5:8 8:14 11:12

12:16 16:9 17:5,20

20:11 23:8 25:7

27:9 32:5 33:18

EERE-2008-BT-STD-0012 COMMENT 07
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 229

35:2,7,8 43:21

44:20,20 45:13,19

45:22 47:1 48:22

51:18 59:7 61:21

66:1 74:19 81:19

82:20 86:20 89:13

91:12,12,16,19

92:1,17 96:9 102:5

111:15 115:8

119:8 122:9 128:2

128:7 129:6

135:11 136:16,21

137:15,21 138:3

138:14,15 139:13

139:18 140:5,9

142:21,22 144:6

146:22 150:22

152:18 154:16

156:7 160:13

161:21 162:20

163:9,15,21 164:4

164:13 169:21

170:6 171:4,6

173:14,20 174:2

176:15 177:21

185:10 186:1,2,3

188:2 190:16

193:13 195:10,12

197:15 200:2,7,9

200:21 201:19,20

we've 5:2 16:13

34:22 35:1,4 44:9

62:2 86:3 89:15

116:18 123:16,17

130:7 148:17,18

149:3 155:5 158:9

163:5 187:9

190:10 200:10,22

201:1,2,14,15

202:15,21 203:2,4

203:5

Whirlpool 2:3,4 7:1

7:3 39:15 47:21

59:17 60:14 61:5

62:18 63:12 72:14

85:2,7,15 185:14

195:17

white 38:12 44:11

59:8

wide 138:2

wife 59:10

Wiley 2:16

willing 95:13

115:10 122:2

174:8

winds 100:15

wine 25:11 37:18,18

38:9,10,12,12,16

40:10,11,16 43:22

44:2,9,10,11,13

47:2,4 59:3,4,22

60:16,22 66:20

112:1,2,3,9 113:3

wires 130:7

wish 10:1 185:18

199:10

wishes 19:22 20:19

197:3

Witkowski 1:15 3:6

7:8,8 8:16 12:19

13:20 14:3 20:2,16

74:3 108:16,16,20

109:1

wondering 21:16

Wood 2:13

words 139:5

work 5:2 6:1,3,6

10:19 22:5 29:15

29:20 30:13 32:14

32:18 41:2 42:16

42:17 52:7 75:12

75:13 77:15 86:17

89:12,16,18

123:17 149:13

157:14 197:11,13

197:19,19 201:21

worked 200:13

working 16:9 89:14

109:16 112:21

114:2 135:12

201:19

workshop 198:21

work-around 27:22

worthwhile 177:10

wouldn't 32:11

142:19

writing 24:19

108:21

written 13:10 39:16

39:21 60:4 72:2

105:21 131:7

wrong 132:11

wrote 89:14

W.C 2:13

Y

year 42:21 82:18

84:4,9 136:7

142:16 188:19

years 4:22 23:12

42:19 54:22

110:11 129:11

154:13 170:2

171:11 174:13

187:10

year's 137:1

yielding 175:9

York 145:19

0

0 33:8,13

1

1 29:22 30:7,11

31:12 33:5 100:5

1-2 50:12 51:4,17

1-3 49:16 50:10,13

51:17

1.63 84:19,22 85:12

1:25 157:19 158:3,9

1:32 158:14 159:2

10 26:18 64:13

103:1 104:7,8,12

104:13 185:2,5

10-K 79:16 124:6

10-2 177:3

10:27 74:16

10:30 9:3 74:4

10:45 74:5,10

10:49 74:17

100 125:22

1000 1:10

1004 26:18

106 159:11

119 3:13

12 3:6 4:21 135:4,7

12-2 182:19

12.1 182:16

12.2 182:10,16

12:15 9:9

12:20 156:19

12:23 158:12

12:25 157:18

12:30 135:15

122 3:16

13 66:13 145:16

151:6

13th 25:2

14 119:19

15 74:13 103:13

135:3,10 157:6,11

157:14

15.3 193:8

159 3:18

17 98:22

17th 14:17

179 3:20

18 98:19

186 3:23

19 58:11 62:21

63:13,14 98:22

99:1 154:13

19-year 154:18

197 3:24

1975 15:3

1987 15:6

1989 15:15

1990 174:14

1993 191:20

1997 15:17

1998 154:16

2

2 100:5

2:19 203:7

20 3:7 58:11,19 65:2

65:6 66:17 102:22

187:10

20th 14:14,17

2000 132:3

2001 62:1 129:8

2003 23:22

2004 25:2

2005 15:18 131:15

174:17

2006 129:14

2007 15:21 20:7

2008 1:7 14:14 23:9

24:12 41:7,19

42:20 50:14 51:7

2009 42:16

2010 16:1 200:17

2014 16:2 42:2

110:9 118:4

166:13,15 170:1

171:10

2030 150:6

22 3:8

24 19:18

27th 24:12

28 192:9

29 1:7 23:12 51:12

29th 4:8

3

3 9:16 100:5 106:14

3-1 55:17

3-3 59:1

3-4 62:18 63:3,6

64:1

3.5 68:2

30 105:14,16 106:4

170:2 171:11

31 16:1 37:11 46:20

48:19 200:17

32 48:20 49:1

35 46:8 105:12,18

106:3

36 56:9

38 33:14

39 33:11,15 59:21

59:22 60:19

4

4 3:2 105:11

4-1 71:19

4-2 72:4

42 58:8 62:21

430 64:13 185:3

431 185:5

EERE-2008-BT-STD-0012 COMMENT 07
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 230

45 33:10 66:12

5

5 33:13 64:4 67:1,14

98:19 105:11

106:14,20

5,000 125:20

5-2 98:14

5-3 99:3

5-4 99:13

5.1 82:7

5.5 85:22 86:8,14

88:3

5.6 85:22 86:7 88:3

50 72:17

5063s 35:19

51 3:10

55 38:15 39:16

59:19 60:4 61:1,1

6

6 12:20

60 38:15

62552 33:4 49:9

63 87:18

7

7 13:1 56:8 106:14

106:20 194:16

7th 23:22

72 109:4 111:16

73 103:7,13 106:12

111:16

74 103:4 111:16

75 111:16

76 3:12

8

8 3:4

8E-089 1:10

8,000 129:15 131:18

85 121:9

861 145:3,4

9

9:00 1:9

9:10 4:2

90 123:18

91 164:3

92 165:17 167:8

93 166:13 167:9

EERE-2008-BT-STD-0012 COMMENT 07
EERE-2008-BT-STD-0012 COMMENT 07