DOCUMENT MONT

21) 169 229 OD 020 725

AUTHOR Girttera, rli: And Others

TITLE Tell Me About Your School: Interviews with Elementary

and High School Studerts in Harlem, New York City.

Special Report No. 35.

INSTITUTION National Commiesicr. for Employment Policy (DCLI,

Washirgtor, C.C.

PUB DATE' Sep 79

N07.7 79p.

-VDTS PRICT MF01/PCOLI Plus Postage.

CrSCRIPTOPS *Black Youth: Career Awareness: *Career Choice:

Educational Environment: Educational Po.1..icy:

*Education Work Pelaticrship: rlementary Secondary

Education: rmplovment Cpportunities: -Ghettos:

Interviews: Low Ircome Groups: *Minority Group

Children: Pole Models: *Studer+ Attitudes: *Urban

Schools

IDENTIFIEPS *New York (New York)

ABSTRACT

Eilahty low income students residing in East, Central,

ard wept Harlem were interviewed in an effort to explore how they see

their school experiences in terms cf their future participation in

the world cf wcrk. Equal numbers of the students were 10, 11, 14, ard

15 years old, and all were of minority backgrourd. They were asked

cuesticns concerning: (1) sk4lls they have/would like to have: (2)

hew they and their friends "find school": (31 quantity of homework

and help recelved in doing homework: (4) career goals and how they

think schccl can help tc achieve these coals: () reading and

television viewing: (6) their cpinicns concerning disruptive

students, pregnant students, and school improvement: (7) where and

with whom they can discuss their futures:.and (8) their summer plans.

Results of the interviews are presented in this monograph, with an

overview of the findings given for each aoe end sex group. In

addition, themes that emerged from all the interviews are discussed

in relaticr tc their educational and employment policy implications.

Appended to the report are comments by Glenn Marshall and Gwendolyn

Barnes (the individuals who conducted the interviews) regarding the

need tc improve educational, economic, and occupational cpporturities

for low income minorit ycuills. (GC)

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Peprcducticrs suppl4ed by FDPS are the t,est that can be made

from the original locumer.t.

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4

A

U S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

EDUCATION I& WELFARE

NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF

EDUCATION

THIS DOCUME NT HAS SEEN REPRODUCED EXACTLY AS RECEIVED FROM

THE RE R5,0N OR ORC,ANIZAT ION ORIGIN.

ATINO IT POINTS OF VIEW OR OPINIONS

STATED OD NOT NECESSARILY RERRE

SENT OF r IcIAL NATIONAL INSTITUTE Or

EDUCATION POSI TioN OR PM ICY

V

t
MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL COMMISSION FOR

EMPLOyMENT POLICY NI*

Ell Ginzberg, Chairman; A. Barton Hepburn Professor

of Economics and Director, Conservation of Human

Resources, Columbia University, New York

Ray Marshall, Secretary of Labor

Patricia Roberts Harris, Secretary of Health,

Education and Welfare

Max Cleland, Administrator of Veterans Affairs,

. Veterans Administration

Eleanor Holmes Norton, Chair, Equal Employment

Opportunity Commission

Gracie la Olivarez, Director,

Community Services Administration

Michael J. Dukakis, Director, Intergovernmental Studies,

Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University,

Brookline, Massachusetts

Roy R. Escarcega, Senior Vice President,

Urban Development Division, The East Los Angeles

Community Union, Los Angeles, California

Patsy F. Fryman, Assistant to the PIesident,

Communications Workers of America,

Fairfax, Virginia

Carol S. Gibson, Director of the Education Division

of the National Urban League and Chair of the

National Advisory Council on Vocational Education,

New York City

George L. Jenkins, Attorney-at-Law,

Columbus, Ohio

Sam Lena, Vice Chairman, Pima County Board

of Supervisors, Tucson, Arizona

Ruth Love, Superintendent of Schools,

Oakland, California

Austin P. Sullivan, Jr., Vice President,

General Mills, and Chairman of the Minnesota

Governor's Council on Employment and Training,

Wayzata, Minnesota

Julius B. Thrower, Admissions Director,

S. D. Bishop State Junior CL. ege and Vice Chairman,

American Association of Minority Veterans Program

Administrators, Mobile, Alabama

Isabel V. Sawhill, Director

3
T Me A--

gr S

Interviews with Elementary

and High School Students

in Harlem, New York City

by

Eli Ginzberg

with

Glenn Marshall and Gwendolyn Barnes

A Special Report of the

National Commission for Employment Policy

Special Report No. 35

September 1979

1522 K Street, NW, Suite 300

Washington, D.C. 20005

JUN 9 1980
This volume was prepared for the National Commission

for Employment Policy. The opinions expressed are

those of the authors and do not necessarily represent

the opinions or policy of the Commission or any other

agency of the United States Government.
CONTENTS

FOREWORD

PAGE

1

1. Conventional Wisdom About Ghetto Schools . 5

2. Boys 7

3. Girls 21

4. Young Men 33

5. Young Women 47

6. What the Students Told Us 59

70 Directions for Policy 67

APPENDIXES

A. "With Ail Deliberate Speed" -- Glenn Marshall. 75

B. "Summary Views" -- Gwendolyn Barnes 77

6
FOREWORD

The year 1979 is likely to be recorded as marking the

emergence of youth employment on the nation's agenda. The

Administration has taken the lead to focus on the issue with

an aim of developing new and more effective policies and programs to deal with the large numbers, particularly of minority

youth, who encounter difficulties in finding a regular job.

The National Alliance of Business, the Business Roundtable,

the Committee for Economic Development and still other groups

of employers are reappraising their hiring and training policies wit% an aim of contributing to the employability and

employment of yoUng people who are encountering difficulties

in making an effective linkage to the world of work.

The educational community is also becoming more directly

engaged at every level--locall state, and national--in an effort to link the schools more effectively to work and thereby

help smooth the transition for many students.

The National Commission for Employment Policy from the

time of its establishment in 1974 has been concerned with the

high unemployment rates Of youth, particularly minority youth,

and has analyzed the causes and put forward recommendations

for new policies and programs (see especially the Second Annual

Report of the Commission, December 1976). In 1978 under the

promptings of Dr. John Porter, a charter member of the Commission and Superintendent of Public Instruction, Jtate of Michigan,

the Commission established a Task Force for the purpose of undertaking a comprehensive review of the causes for the persistently

high unemployment of minority youth. The object of the exercise

was to develop a strategy that promised to alleviate, even if it

could not assure the total elimination of this scourge with its

attendant high costs to the affected individuals and to society.

This substantial effort of the Commission with its wide-reaching

recommendations will form the core of its Fifth Annual Report,

to be available in December 1979.

As a by-product of the efforts of the Commission to explore in depth the relationships which exist, or which might

be established, between the educational system and the world

of work, I saw merit in getting one facet of this complex

issue under better control by exploring how young people who

live in a low income area of a large city (New York) see their

sehool experiences in terms of their current participation as

well as in terms of their career objectives. Accordingly, I

elicited the assistance of a former student, Mr. Glenn Marshall,

who was in the process of completing his requirements for a

degree of Master of Social Work at Columbia University and a

fellow student in the School of Social Work, Gwendolyn Barnes.
I asked them to interview respectively 40 young men and

40 young women, of minority backgrounds, resident in three

low income areas -- East, Central and West Harlem. Each

group was to contain equal numbers of 10 to 11 year olds,

most of whom would be in the.5th or 6th grade; and 14 to 15

year olds most of whom would be in the 9th or 10th grade.

The interviewers were asked to avoid selecting youngsters

at either extreme: those who were encountering serious difficulties in school or those whose talents put them on the fast

track.

Those who have had experience interviewing young people

know that it is no easy matter to engage, and harder to hold,

their attention, even when their interest is piqued by offering them, as in the present case, $3 for their participation.

Since the point of the inquiry was to see their school experience through their eyes, I developed a relatively small number

of leading questions. These sought to elicit the following

types of information from the students interviewed: some

insight into their skills and career plans; how they and their

friends find school; their recommendations about how to deal

with peers who disturb the class; what they know about job

information and jobs; what the mayor could do to improve the

educational system.

The specific questions follow:

1. What Skills Do You Have/Would You Like to Have?

2. How Do You Find School?

3. How Do Your Friends Find School?

4. How Much Homework Do You Get and Who Helps You

With It?

5. What Do You Want to be When You Grow Up and Can

School Help You?

6. What Have You Been Reading/What About TV?

7. What Else Do You Want to Tell Me About School,

Teachers, Principal?

8. What Should Be Done With Students Who Disturb

The Class?

9. If You Wanted Information About Jobs Where Would

You Get It? WhLt About Your Fucure/With Whom

Have You Discussed It?
3

10. If You Were Mayor, What Would You Do To Improve

the Schools?

11. What Are You Going To Do This Summer?

12. What Do You Suggest About Schooling for Girls

Who Are Pregnant?

The structure of this monograph is straightforward. The

first chapter sets forth the conventional wisdom about ghetto

schools to provide a backdrop to the interview materials.

Each of the next four chapters presents an overview and

selected interview of the respective subgroup. Chapter six

deals with major themes that traverse the reportage. The

final chapter, seven, speaks to policy directions.

We are indebted to Mrs. Thomasina Washington of the East

River Houses Community Center and Mr. Charles Williams, Martin

Luther King, Jr. Towers Community Center for helping us to

identify the students and for facilitating our interviewing

them.

ELI GINZBERG

Chairman

National Commission for Employment Policy
1. Conventional Wisdom About Ghetto Schools

The American public is duly exercised about the performance of public education in low income areas of our big

cities and with considerable justification. They know that

many youngsters drop out of school without acquiring the competences they need to be hired into any but the most unskilled

job. Many who drop out are one, two, or even three years retarded in reading or arithmetic.

Another cause of widespread concern stems from the knowledge that many youngsters while ostensibly on the school's

rolls are in fact spending most of their time on the city's

streets often engaged in destructive behavior from vandalism

to muggings. Neither truant officers nor others in the educational bureaucracy appear to be deeply concerned, much less

succesSful, in identifying the truants and assuring that they

return to the classroom.

Trouble and crime in the streets is only one aspect of

the non-engagement of students. There is also a great amount

of trouble that occurs within the school -- in the classroom,

the corridors, the lavatories, the lunchrooms, the study

halls. At the extremerteachers and others in authority are

assaulted. The harassment of fellow students is so pervasive

that nobody takes notice except the victim.

There is a no-win debate that has long been underway

whether responsibility for these dysfunctional conditions

rests with society, the educational leadership, principal

and teachers, the community, the family, or the individual

student. There are those who contend that if the public

would spend as much or more on pupils in disadvantaged

neighborhoods as on those attending schools in affluent

suburbs many if not all of the foregoing shortcomings could

be eliminated. Others refuse to accept this interpretation

because they point out that the average expenditures per

child in a low income urban area (in the north and west) is

considerably above the average for the nation as a whole.

Those who point to the educational bureaucracy as the

source of the major difficulties call attention to subtle

discrimination, teacher assignment systems that place the

youngest and least experienced in the most difficult schools

and the seniority systems that result in too few teachers

and principals from minority groups. But each of these

charges can be rebutted, surely in part, sometimes in whole.

There are a few ghetto schools that have been able to perform creditably in the face of these handicaps.
6

With respect-to community control, two contrasting

positions can be identified; those who claim that neighborhood schools fail to perform because of an absence of community

controlpand those who point to instances where conditions

actually deteriorated after community boards were granted

decision-making powers.

As one might expect, those with roots in the educational

enterprise, particularly the classroom teacher and principal,

are quick to point to the weaknesses in many of their pupils'

families to explain why the school's efforts are often ineffectual. They point out that,no school is capable without an

assist from the family to establish the discipline, motivation,

study habits and performance standards that are integral to

effective learning. Many who teach in ghetto areas complain

that all or most of these preconditions are absent in the case

of their pupils. But others are loath to accept this explanation. They point out that in generations past many children

whose families were poor and often disorganized coped with

their lessons and obtained at least the basic education they

needed to make a reasonable transition when the time came

into the world of work.

There are observers who see the heart of the difficulty

in the inherent shortcomings of the students themselves. Some

believe that minority youth, particularly blacks, have greater

difficulty than whites in conceptualization and analysis.

Others call attention to the differences between the majority

and minority populations with respect to motivational factors.

The way they formulate the difference is this: minority youth

are more "present-oriented,"more 4-ed in immediate gratification which translates into a lack of ability on their part

to undergo the discipline and put forth the related effort

needed to profit from their schooling. ,

There is no point in trying to choose among these many

explanations for the mediocre educational performance of many

minority youth. Some of the explanations are complementary,

some contradictory and the last mentioned is beyond the pale

except for a few developmental psychologists who are convinced

of the hereditary inferiority of the black population.

In the face of so many unproved and even unprovable

hypotheses and conclusions there is special merit in the

reader's keeping his presumptions and prejudices under

control as he follows what these youngsters have to say

about their educational experiences. They may not possess

an overview of what is right and what is wrong about the

schooling to which they are being exposed but it would be

presumptuous for others to reach judgments about what should

be done to make their schooling more responsive to their needs

without paying close attention to what they report.

11
7

2. poys

These youngsters are ten or eleven and span three grades --

4th, 5th and 6th. The five whose interviews are reproduced

come frot three different schools. The first three are resident in East Harlem, the last two in Central Harlem. All but

the second, who is of Puerto Ri'an extraction, are black.

12
9

Adam

Skills

I play sports, basketball, baseball and softball. I

draw pictures of dogs, people and all kinds of things.

I like to learn crafts, you knowl.ah, sculpture.

School

I like school. I learn a lot about things like music,

living with people around you. I feel that .school is interesting because I'm learning math; reading, science, and art.

Friends

Most of them are happy to Ago to school; some don't like

school because they don't like the teachers and the school

work they do.

Homework

Yes, a whole lot. I get four days a week of homework,

some homework on the weekend. Homework is usually four pages

of reading, two pages of math and book reports.'

My mother and father help me most of the time when I

don't understand it.

Future

A pilot. I like to fly jet planes and supersonic planes

someday. Also, I like to be a doctor because I like to help'

people and because I love science. And I like to be a nuclear

scientist.

Yes, school can help. School teaches you what you have

to know, what you need to know to get a job in what ydu want

tcyae.

Reading

Wildlife books and mysterios.

What Else About School

My teachers treat the bad kids better than the good kids

in class. They are afraid of the bad kids' parents because

they fear getting hurt. Some teachers never treat you like a

person and don't care about you learning.
10

Barnes

Skills

Well, I. do math well, I read well, draw well and I do

arts and crafts well. I like to make things out of wood and

I like to make faces out of clay. I also like playing the

flute because my teachers will let us keep the flute. I like

to sing soft songs and English songs. I play baseball very

well. I'm in the pee-wee league.

rgot'interested in them in school, the center and in

the playground. One day my friends asked me if I wanted to

play baseball and I said yes.

I would like to play the guitar, make cars, a lot of

people like to ride in cars; play basketball because a lot

of my friends always ask me to play and I don't know how to

play.

School

I like school because I like to work. I like do to math,

reading, science, arts and crafts, and music. School is interesting. If I don't go to school, I won't be smart.

Some kids do bad things to the teacher like putting thumbtacks 3n the chai... My teacher wants to help, but the children

resist. They feel that they _should come to school and do what

they want. The teacher makes\e list of the bad children to be

given to Mr. R (the assistant principal). One time the

bad kids made the teacher cry.

Yes, school is helpful, mainly because I'm learning how

to read. In Catholic schooll'all I did was fight every day.

I wasn't'learning. All the children did was fight. They

didn't want to learn. Now I'm learning a great deal like

math, arts and crafts.

Friends

Some hate school. They are lazy and do not want to do

the work and they are bad. They don't want to listen to the

teacher because they say that the teachers are bad and they

are bad to them. When they do this, they prevent me from

learning.

Homework

Every day and on the weekends when we are bad.
11

Two to three pages of work in all my subjects (math,

reading and science).

One hour (per night).

I get help from my older brother, he's 13, sometimes

from my father and mother.

Future

I would like to be a doctor.

.If you want to be a doctor you have to know all the subjects, if you don't, you can't help the people get well.

Reading

Stories, folk tales and fairy tales; comic books -- I

collect them; Super Heroes, Hot Stuff and Archie.

What Else About School

I like my teacher, sometimes she is strict, she makes

you do your work especially at lunch. There are some kids

who like to make trouble because they fight other children

.and tease them. Sometimes when the teacher gets angry, the

teacher punishes the whole class. It's not fair because some

kids like to learn, so half the class gets left back. Parents

.should get involved with their children like my father does.

. Girls play with boys a lot and don't want to do the work. Kids

who want to learn work together. My friend and I do homework

together and test each other.

Yes, my teacher wants us to learn. She cares about us.

My teacher is black.
12

Clarence

Skills

I'm very good at writing compositions, telling stories,

playing games like monopoly, playing baseball, basketball and

softball, and doing science.

I became interested in them in school, watching TV and

playing with my friends. I tried them out and I like them.

I really don't know about skills I would like to haver

I can't say right now.

School

I don't like it that much. Some of the teachers treat

me nice, some of them treat MR mean. You see, like when we

sit at our tables in class, the table next to us starts talking then we get blamed'and the whole table gets punished,

like we had to write 100 times I must not talk in class,

therefore, we miss lunch. Some kids are not friendly,they,

start fights, some are bullies.

A lot of talking, but not that much fighting and arguments. When we go to'drama we get excited, but not that much

talking goes on.

Yes, our teacher puts it into our heads fast. I learned

more than last year. Our teacher is mean, she wants us to

learn and she gives us quizzes on vocabulary, etc. Other

teachers let you go, they don't give any test.

Friends

They are not that happy about it because they complain

about too much homework and teachers; sometimes they get

aggravated with her.

Homework

Yes, lots of it.

Every day.

I get homework in every subject, three pages of reading;

two pages of math; two pages of socia.L studies; and one page

of .science.

16
13

Sometimes when the homework is real hard, I spend a

half hour, other times I spend 20 minutes.

My mother helps when the homework is hard and my big

brothers.

Future

A fireman.

I can tell you all the facts about saving people's lives

and how to be brave about it.

p!ading

Books, folk tales, comic books and riddle books.

What Else About School

Ain't nothing much to tell about, it's just that school

is about learning.

Yes, because they question you a lot about new things

so you can learn them.

1 7
14

David

Skills

-I'm good at math, football, baseball, soccer, swimming,

climbing trees and fences.

Well, I became interested in math when my teacher kept

telling me to keep on trying, for at first I was not learning

anything. I became interested in sports by watching Wide World

of Sports and when I went to day camp, I asked my counselor to

teach me.

I would like to learn how to be a manager of a housing

project.

School

School's alright because in my school the lunches are

good. My teacher takes us outside and gives us extra gym.

(What goes on in the classroom) Fights, when someone

does something wrong, my teacher gets the stick and hits them

with it. My teacher also writes too many things on the board

about social studies.

Friends

I don't know because they don't talk about school.

Homework

Every daylexcept when we go on trips.

One'page in math, science social studies, spelling

and reading.

One hour.

My mother.

Future

A lawyer.

Yes. School teaches you things.

Reading

Books likeDennis the Menace, Star Wars, Benji and

Snoopy.
15

What Else About School

My principal is mean, rough and tough because if you do

anything wrong, he'll get after you and you go up to his

office.

Unruly Students

They should put them out or punish them like keeping them

up in the principal's office all day.

Zobs

.My center director.

If You Were Mayor

Get better teachers, like expert teachers.

Get better principals.

Make sure the kids go to school.

Summer

I'm going to day camp, down south and camping.

19
16

Edward

Skills

I'm good at math, science, language art, drawing,

coloring and history, also sports.

First I was falling back on my school work, my mother

told me that I should study more so I just became good at

them. Sports were something that all my friends played, so

I watch them and learned. My mother brought me some equipment so I became good at them.

Learn more about science.

School

It's ;...right because I'm getting a fairly good education.

My mother wants me to go to college.

Sometimes people don't do their work and their parents

get letters from the teachers. Some teachers I don't get

along with.

Friends

They don't like it, sometimes they play hooky.

Homework

No.

(How much time do you watch TV?) Never, I just read

books.

Future

An auto mechanic; right now I'm working in a parts shop

with my father.

Right now, I'm in a special class for auto mechanics.

Reading.

Books, fiction and non-fiction; biographies and novels.

From the public library.

What Else About School

Nothing goes on in school, it's really boring.

20
r

Yes, school's OK .because it stops me from getting into

trouble.

Unruly Students

They should be suspended and a card should be sent

home.

Jobs

My father, he got my mother a good job.

"rf You Were Mayor

Hire more teachers. Get rid of all the bad kids. Get

rid of all the bad teachers.

t, Summer

Play sports mostly . '4 go to Hunter College for a summer

school program.

,

7.ti.
18

Additional Interview Material

Several of the youngsters emphasize that the teachers

"scream" at them, something that they greatly dislike-the

more so if they have not been the cause of the trouble.

Other terms that come through not only occasionally, but

repeatedly, are "mean" and "strict." Several of the interviewees use the first to characterize both teacher and

principal. With respect to strictness, they are ambivalent.

Some complain about their teacher being too strict, but others

note that their teacher is not strict enough.

But one must be careful to balance these negatives with

positives. Consider #28: "The principal is good,; he helps

us too, like the teachers." Of another,#31: " ... if you

want her (the teacher) to help you, she will help you only if

you want to help yourself. If you don't want to help yourself,

she won't help you." The same youngster said that his teacher

"favors the girls in class, especially when answering questions."

This is the only reference to favoritism that appeared in the

interviews.of the boys.

There were repeated references as in #32 to disruption

in the classrom, "I don't like what goes on. Usually there

is a lot of fighting, talking and playing cards." And many

who objected to the disturbance recommend that the unruly be

"put out of school." An occasional student reveals a less

extreme response as in the case of #33: "Their mothers should

come to school to talk with the teachers and should be given

chances before they get suspended." Several such as #34 said

that they could be learning more except for the disruption.

Among the strange insights offered was the following

#30: "When you go the bathroom, the whole class goes with you.

One of my teachers takes the girls, and the other takes the

boys."

We asked questions about substitute teachers and discovered that the students were exposed to them relatively

infrequently, mostly when their regular teacher was :al,

which did not happen more than once a month.

After the interviewing had begun, we added se,veral

questions including how many hours they looked at v.elevision,

whether they had a library card, whom they would consult about

job information, and whether they knew any high school graduates

who had obtained a good job.
19

The replies fell in the following bounds: TV viewing

time averaged about four hours daily; most students had a

library card, but many got their reading material from the

school library or from local stores; teacher, center directors,

relatives were the persons whom they would consult about jobs;

and few reported that they knew a high school graduate who had

obtained a regular job.
23.

3. Girls

The five girls whose interviews follow attend five

different elementary schools. With the exception of Clara,

who lives in West Harlem, the other four come from the East

Harlem community. All are black. Although they are only

two years apart in age (10 ol 11) their grade in school

range's from 4th for Amy to 7th for Clara.
23

Amy

Skills

Math, reading that's aboutwit.

I like to draw. I can play the drums and sing. I can

fix toys and play baseball, football, kickball, soccer and

tennis.

I learned to play the drums in church and my brothers

play baseball and football. I play with them. I got interested

in soccer and,tennis in summer school.

Drawing, I would like to be an artist.

School

I like school because I like to learn but sometimes the

teachers make us do things we don't want to do. Well, before

we go on a trip the teacher will make everyone go to the bathroom even if we tell her we don't have to go.

The boys fight most of the time. They like to start

trouble (pick fights) with the girls. The boys are nasty to

the teacher. Sometimes she puts them in a corner, calls the

assistant principal or ignores them.

Yes, I'm learning how to write stories, how to sound

out words, how to do different kinds of math and how to play

an instrument.

Friends

I don't know, we don't talk about school.

Homework

yeslevery day except half days.

Two hours a day.

My sister and grandmother.

Future

I want to be an artist.

Yes, because kon Friday we have art classes and we learn

how to make things.
24

Reading

I read Fiesta, Air Pudding and Wind Sauce, How Mothers

Are. I like to read.

What Else About School , The principal is nice. The teacher is mean. If the

principal sees us doing wrong, she doesn't say anything but

if the teacher sees us she will punish us. Sometimes she pulls

our hair or ear.
25

Beatrice

Skills

Reading and dancing.

I like to design things, I play the piano; also baseball,

kickball and basketball.

My brother plays sports and designs things. I become

interested in music when I took it in school.

I would like to be a good actress.

School

Some of the children fight and the teacher hits them with

a paddle. Sometimei she takes away their gym period.

Yes, I'm learning math and reading. My reading score is

between 6.8 and 6.9.

Friends

Yes, my friends like learning, they also like gym. Sometimes they play around. We help each other with our lessons.

Homework

Yes, every day.

20 minutes to an hour e day.

My brother mostly but someti.,es my mother and father.

Future

I would like to be a nurse and an actress. Yes, school

would teach nie about the human body, how to tell time. We

give plays in school and have talent shows.

Reading

I like to read. I read Nancy Drew, Dracula and ILLeLillys.

Wh t Else About School

My principal cares about us because he talks to the kids

and disciplines them when they are bad.

27
26

Clara

Skills

Spelling.

I play the flute and I run track.

My music teacher taught me to play the flute when I was in

the 5th grade.

I want to learn typing.

School

I like school. My teacher gives us lessons to do in class

and things to think about i.e., if you were on the moon how would

you act on a different planet? Nobody fights in my class.

Friends

They like school. They like learning new things.

Homework

Yes, every day. Twenty to thirty minutes. My father helps

me with math sometimes.

Future

I want to be an airplane stewardess or a typist. School

can help me become a typist. I don't know about an airline

stewardess.

Reading

I read sometimes but nothing lately.

watch TV a lot. My favorite programs are mysteries and

comedies.

Uhruly_Students

If kids really make a lot of trouble they should go to a

rsychiatrist and also discuss the problem with their parents.

Teachers shouldn't be allowed to hit the child unless they have

the parents' permission. If the child is very bad, the parents

should give their permission.
27

If You Were Mayor

There aren't enough books, I would get more and I would

improve the lunches.

Pregnant Girls

They should let the girls go to school and graduate.

29

1
28

Debby

Skills

I like to design things like little doll clothes. We make

them in school. I'm good at that.

I got interested when my sister made a jumper. She's 17

years old.

I would like to be a photographer and an actress.

School

School is what's happening, but when I get there I can't

wait to get back home. I like the mornings best. In the afternoon nothing happens hut in the morning I work'on a special

project. On Tuesday afternoons we have music which I don't

like, We have to play the flute and the teacher gets mad if

you mess up.

Every day people have fights. I fight too if I have to

but not for no mason. I had an argument today. A boy threw

a piece of *crayon at me when I threw it back at him the teacher

yelled at me. lhe always yells at me when I throw things back

at people.

We learn math, science and about different kinds of animals

from all parts of the world.

Friends

Someof them can't stand scnool. My friend Brenda plays

hooky. I never do. She hangs around the school and sometimes

the teacher gets the principal. Sometimes the teacher brings

her in the class and screams at her.

Homework

Every dayexcept Friday unless we don't have school on

Monday.

About 1C minutes.

No, I don't do my homework at home. I do it at the center

and my counselor helps me. If I don't do it at the ...enter, my

mother or my sister helps me.

30
29

4

Future

I like to do a lot of things but I doL't really know what

I want to do when I grow up. I want to have a lot of jobs.

Yes, school can help because without an education I won't be

able to get a job.

Reading

I like to read. That's what I do most. I read Trains That

Work, Freaky Friday and Sara and Katie.

When I read a book I get a lottery ticket. If I win the

lottery I get another ticket. In school we have a cha..:t to show

how many books we read.

What E]se About School

If the teacher finds something missing from her desk she

gets the principal, then she says the next time it happens she's

going to call the police, but she never does. She only threatens.

Once she said someone stole her map. She went and got the principal but the map was in her desk drawer.

3 1
30

Ellen

Skills

I sing.

I. like to sing and design. I design modern things like

clothes.

I became inierested in designing clothes by dressing up

my doll. I have one big dell.

I would like to be a nurse because I'm good in Lcience but

I know that's going to take a lot of years. I would also like

to be a good teacher.

School

I like school very much.

There're a lot of fights. The kids fight over simple things

or they argue about what the teacher does. When they fight, the

teacher doesn't do anything. She can't control the class and

has to vet a man teacher to break up the fights.

Not (learning) that much because the teacher can't control

the class. The principal told her he was going to get rid of

her if she doesn't learn to control the kids.

We have substitutes a lot, but they leave because they don't

know what's going on. We had five different substitutes thir

semester. I like substitutes the best because they make the

class be quiet:. The homeroom teacher lets the kids do what they

wo.nt and it shouldn' be like that.

Friends

Most of my friends don't like it. They throw spitballs

in class.

Homework

Yes. I get homework every day.

Five times a week we get a lot of homework.

1 or 2 hours a day.

Because it's so easy, I don't need help.

3 2
31

Future

I want to be a nurse.

Yes, school can help by teaching me about parts of the body

such as the.brain, muscles, 5 senses but the school can't teach

me what to do in an emergency.

Reading

I read Jaws, Galax , Looking for Mr. Goodbar. It took me

a few weeks to reaa it but I finished ft. I also read Adventures

of Sher:ock Holmes, Tom Thumb and Huckleberry Finn and I read a

wok about money. I7E6i07-Fead on the weekends.

What Else About School

School is a good place to get an education, to learn about

life. It's a nice place to stay for 6 hours a day. My teacher

is a big, no good teachen She doesn't teach us anything. The

only time we get to learn anything is when we have a substitute.

Next to substitute teachers, the 4ym and drama teacher teaches

us the most.

33
32

Additional Interview Material

A ten year old #4.says that she likes school because

"sometimes my reading, teacher lets me do extra reading and so

does my math teacher." This same interviewee says that "I'd

like to be a teacher because I like school and like teaching

children."

An eleven year old #6 reports that her art teacher got her

"interested in drawing." Several of the respondents reported

that they had acquired interests and skills from siblings such as

#8: "My sister taught me to make rugs last Christmas." This

girl indicated that she wanted to be a nurse when she grew up,

the most frequent choice among her peers, selected by about

half of all the girls.

An unusual response to how her friends liked school was

the reply of #9 who pointed out that they.didn't care for school

"because they say it is hard to get up in the morning and they

just don't like it.'

Interviewee #11 reported that she likes

like the teacher because he screams at us if

a trait that was shared by the one principal

other is nice). "The mean one screams at us

and he is strict."

"music but I don't

we make a mistake"

who is mean the

for dumb reasons

One of the more traumatic experiences of school is to be

accused unfairly and punished for something one didn't do;

#13 - "I don't like school because my teachers blame things on

me and then I can't go on trips. Sometimes they are right but

sometimes they are wrong."

An eleven year old #17 in West Harlem replying to what

goes on in the classroom said: "Nothing much. The girls do

their work. The boys are jumpy. They throw things at the

girls when the girls do their work. When the teacher makes

the girls monitors, the boys get jea'.ous." The same youngster

pointed up what was key to her schoo.l. experience: "The teachers

in my school are concerned about me. They like me and I like them."

The extent to which even interested and concerned teachers

encounter difficulties is suggested by the comment of #19: "my

teacher can't teach because the kids are talking all the time."

On the other hand #20 reports a different outcome: "People fight,

the teacher scraams at the kids but most of the kids do their

work."
33

4. X2ang_112.a

All five of the young men whose interviews are reproduced

below live i East Harlem. One, John, attended a specialized

high school, the others are enrolled in one of two intermediate

schools. All are of the same age, 14, and are in the eighth

grade, except John who has advanced to the ninth. Gregory is

Hispanic; the others are black.

Itt

3 5
35

Frank

Skills

I'm good at reading, singing, hobbies, wood craft and art.

I got interested in these things by coming to the center.

I saw all the things the other kids were doing, so I became

interested in them.

I would like to learn how to,fix.cars, airplanes and in

general, how machines and engines work.

School

Sometimes I like school and sometimes I don't. First of

all, Jr. High School 1- , was old. They showed us new pictures

of the new school (P.S. 5-) and we were told that it was a

better school but in fact it was not. My school is a jail.

If two classes cause trouble (fighting, name calling, food

fights, etc.), everybody gets punished. If one person causes

trouble like starting fights,ringing the fire alarms, the

whole class gets punished. School treats us like children

instead of adults.

When you teach a class everybody is suppose to pay attention and when this doesn't happen, the teacher gets mad because

she can't handle the class anymore. Everyone does whatever they

want to do, this goes on all day. Kids talk to other kids,

some fight, argue; people get mad at each other. The teachers

are mad at us.

Friends

They feel the same way I do. Sometimes school is fun,

smetimes boring.

Homework

We get very little homework. Once cr twice a week. We

mostly do our homework in school.

I spend about one hour on it, I do my homework first. They

usually give us 2 hours worth and usually it's a lot.

From my mother and father.

Future

I would like to be an auto mechanic or a pilot.

36
36

No. My school doesn't have the equipment hor the teachers

to teach us about cars and airplanes.

Reading

Books, stories of famous movie stars, baseball players...

What Else About School

My school is very quick to change.

The teachers and principal, when visiting other schools,

would try to make our school the same way.

If somebody acts up in class, the teachers scream at him,

then there is an argument, then the kid gets sent to the principal for punishment, he's suspended from school, returns and

does the same thing once again.

Jobs

Yes, my counselor. Every Wednesday I see her.

She's been saying that I should want to go to school and

I should improve my grades. Also, she's been discussing the

kinds of high school I should go to but she doesn't discuss

college.

Yes,because I like to have an education, a good life, a

job so I could support a wife so I would not have to go on

welfare.

Yes. I would like to go to college.
37

Gregory

Skills

I play all kinds of sports and I read well.

Talking to my father I got interested in these things.

Acting, fixing cars.

School

I like school a lot, I really like it a lot. There is a

couple of'subjects that I'm interested in like math and science.

Most of what's happening in the classroom are arguments

between the students and teachers.

I am not learning much in school. Not as much as I would

like to.

Too many arguments between the students and teachers.

Friends

To some of them school is terrible, to the rest it's o.k.

sometimes.

Homework

Every other day.

Two pages.

One hour.

No. Once in a while I get Lelp outside my home like at

the center.

Future

I would like to be a professional baseball player and a

basketball player.

No. School cannot teach these kinds of things.

Reading

Books, stories, mysteries and sports magazines.

3 8
What Else About School

4

Jobs

38

School is not so good, it could be better.

No, the teachers don't spend so much time teaching.

No. I havenrt talked to anybody.

Yes because things that I want to learn are in high school.

e".
39

Hannibal

Skills

I play sports (baseball, basketball, etc.) and I draw.

By growing up in the neighborhood I just drew, especially

science fiction.

I would like to play the guitar in a band, learn about

computers and electronics.

School

Boring.

Noise, fighting, joking, people throwing paper around,

spitball fights, horseplaying, stealing of notebook palsors,

cursing, writing on blackboards, and yelling back at the

teachers. Teachers hardly teach anything;no explanations are

given for lessons or assignments. Teachers scream a lot at

people who don't do anything, especially at me. Teachers curse

at each other and tell the students not to curse. Teachers

put students down by using the "Penwheel Attack,".the teachers

have a secret meeting about who they think is mean or who they

don't like, to pick on.

I would love to learn more if I could.

I try to learn but the teachers don't want to teach us.

Teachers take toomany breaks. They eat too much candy,

yogurts and cakes.

Friends

Everybody feels school is boring. They come because they

have to get an education. They prefer not to come, cut class,

etc. Some come just for different subjects like math, gym,

science and lunch.

HomeC4ork

. Every dayla lot of times.

Two pages per subject. It's usually one and half hours

worth of work.

About 30 minutes to 11/2 hours.

Yes, only when I need help. From my older sister who's

in college.

40
40

Future

I would.like to be a navigator.

It could help if you get theyright education. P.S.5- is

sUited for Aropping out because it's a drag.

Sy providin4 me with the right teachers, books,informtion,

equipment, etc.

Reading

Bèoks, science fiction, poems, non-fiction and other

fiction stories.

.What Else About school

b The lunches are no good, 20% is right and 80% is not right;

the food'is burnt,not well done sometimes, and stale. The library--

no interesting booksthere, the books there are for babies, books

.are out of order, the people who run the library don't do a good

job. preachers punish you unnecessarily. The teachers can't take

'jokes. They tell lies about you. Teachers put down the smart

kids. A lot of smart kids are in the lower classes or slower

classes. Teachers should help us more. Gym classes are too

routine. Much stealing goes on. Equipment is in ruin. We have

to pay for our own food for a graduation.picnic. Teachers are

stealing our money from our cake, cookie and donut sales.

No. They don't care aboxit us, they just want the money.

Too many.fire drills.

-Jobs

Yes, my counselor.

He talks about my chances nf making a good high school ba5

on my grades.

Yes, I don't want to drop out even though I know that it

will be tough staying in.

Yes, going to high school, getting a job, and going to

college.
43,

John

Skills

I write poems, sing, dance, tell jokes, play sports and

I write plays.

Like when-I was growing up things just came to me.

just practice at them and I became good at them.

Acting,play basketball better and write well.

School

I like school. School is preparing me for the future.

To me school is about learning, about life, how life is.

It all depends on the class. When you get into classes

like math and science, the classes are cool. When you get

into classes like drama and art and shop, there is a lot of

disruption. I sometimes get the devil in me because I don't

want to be left out.

Not much, maybe the normal rate of 50%, but I'm hot

learning.

Because of the time, I don't think that there should be

45 minutes to each class, there should be an hour to each class.

If more time were given I and the rest of my classmates would

.learn more and be better prepared fur college.

Frie,nds

Many of them like school. Most of them are trying their

best to get out of the 12th grade so they can go on to college

or whatever.

Homewcrk

Depends on the classes, some classes like math and science.

I get homework regular, some classes like shop -- no homework.

Depends on the classes, sometimes four pages, sometimes

eight pages of work.

Until it takes me tO do it. If the homework is for 10 or

15 minutes, it takes me an extra 5 minutes. If its an hour and

15 minutes, it takes me an extra 10 minutes.

ny parents and my older brothers and sisters.
42

Future

I would like to be a sports commentator and a sports

journalist.

My school has a journalism class and a broadcasting

class, and I know I will be taking them next year. Also,

my school has a press club.

Reading

Books about the Nation of Islam because I'm interested

in it.

What Else. About School

The teachers I find are tryiig to do the best they can.

All the school needs is a little more help in educating us.

At the rate the schools are going now, a lot of young people

are dropping out, mostly minorties, Puerto Ricans and Blacks.

Yes. It's not like they push you, they urge you like

when somebody gets out of hand in class, the teachers sit down

with him to talk to him for awhile.

Jobs

Yes, the Counseling and Career Program, but I

left because I wasn't getting anything out of it because they

were not teaching me anything new. We didn't sit down to tall

about the community and its problems.

Yes, because you need your high st:hool diploma.

I would like to go to college. I would like to have a

trade in journalism. .All really want to do is to write a

book about East Harlem and go somewhere.
43

Kenneth

Skills

I play baseball well; art and woodwo;It (carving).

When I was down south for two years, I became interested.

My brother taught me how to do art.

I would like to learn more about art.

School

It's alright in a way.

Just a lot of work, that's all. Sometimes a little

kidding around.

Learning in-between.

Most of the teachers don't give you that much attention.

Friends

They feel it's fair to them as long as they get something

out of it, the right things they need to learn, to do well in

their classes and to make it.

Homework

Yes, lots of it.

Every day except Friday. Sometimes my teachers misses one

day out of the week.

Two to three pages for four classes: math, corrective

math, reading and social studies.

Future

would like to ha an architect.

Yes, most likely in the art class.

School can tell you the things you need to knowinformation on schools to go to.

Reading

;ooks, mostly ever!thing in history, health science, and

art.

14
44

What Else About School

Nothing as long as they give us the education that we

need to get into college and be somebody. The teachers have

helped us but not the principal. All he does is sit back in

his office to relax and give suspension notices. He'll do

anything to get a kid suspended. He just gives nut orders.

He likes to do this and he's Black at that. He gets alcmg

better with the Puerto Ricans than he does Blacks.

Just the teachers, they will try to give you the t)*.i.ags

you need to learn.

Jobs

Yes, the supervisors on my floor in school and the assistant principal.

They say don't just pick any high school, pick a school

that you like and you're interested in.

Yes, I want to hc. somebody, to have a good job and make

some money.

Yes, getting into college.
45

Additional Interview Material

A considerable number, such as #21, reported that they

knew no one who had finished school and who had succeeded in

landing a good job. The same respondent said he would like to

be a "black architect" when he grew up. This was a rare reference to the role of race in their lives. Respondent #24 said

he "wanted to write about black people and about the ghetto and

love."

One of the students, #22, who succeeded in gaining entrance

to a selective high fxhool, Brooklyn Tech, was sensitive to the

close linkages between schooling and later work: "I fee] that

I have to go to school to get a.good job. You heve to-have a

profession in order to qualify for a good job." He was also

the only respondent who said, "I'm going to college definitely."

The extent to which students who went to study resent their

peers who make trouble in the classroom is suggested by the

comment of #23 who said that the kids causing disturbances

"should be put out of the class, or put away somewhere."

In answer to an inrauiry as to whether :-:ummer school would

be a good idea as early as the 4th grade, #24 said no "because

they don't have that much trouble in learning. It's just in

junior high school you start failing." The same student in

responding to what he would do if he were Mayor to improve the

educational system said: "Provide a college fund or bonds for

students who 'attend school and do well."

While fathers are frequently absent from the home, the

influence of other relations can be seen as in the following

comment by the grandfather of #25; "Money is important and

I'll get a good job with money if I get a good education, do

good in school and earn a scholarship."

There was relatively little reference to sex and almost

none to drugs. However, #26 talked about, "some people checking

out the girls." He went on to add: "If you want to learn, you

learn. The teachers say, 'If you don't want to listen, don't

listen; if you do, then listen.' Some of them think school is

a drag; they don't like it. I know this guy who dicfln't go to

school for two months." Small wonder that many students are

negativet "The teachers think school is a jail; they don't

let us out sometimes. .They think we are criminals."

In #27, we see tne influence of siblings on educational

and career choices: "She [sister] says I should finish school

and go to high school and college because that's the only way

I'll be able to make it. She says I should think about being
46

an engineer. You know my ilster is in college and she says

it's a JcJd deal."

The tension between students and teachers is reflected

in the following comment #9: "Sometimes when the teachers

get mad at the students and when they get sick they don't come

in. Often they don't come in to school and if they're in

school they just simply leave." Or the situation described

.1.)7 #11: "Some of the teachers mtght take advantage of the

students like if they hit you and you hit them back, they'll

call the principal and have you suspended."

School may leave a great deal to be desired., #12: "I hate

when people take your stuff -- clothes, shoes, money -- out of

your locker." "But I feel that school is something I got to do

because without it you can't do nothing like getting a good job.

You have to get out there and get yours before they give you

what you want."

Much the same sentiment is reflected by #14: "A lot of my

friends ask me to play hooky, but I tell them that I have to

get the education."

The difference in attitude between students and those in

authority is suggested by another comment of #14: "The school

has a lot of rules like don't bring no weapons to school."
47

5. Young WOmen

All of these young women, except Irene who is fourteen,

are fifteen. They are in the ninth or tenth grade except for

Irene who is still in the eighth grade. Each of the five

attends a different school. Felicia, Helen and Irene live

in West Harlem, Grace and Janet in East Harlem. All are

black.

46
49

Felicia

Skills

Dancing. I j ,t picked it.

I would like to sing.

School

I like school, it's ok. I would go to summer school..

Some people curse the teacher, some do work. Some of

the girls fight.

I would like to learn math and social studies.

Friends

I think they like it.

Homework

Yes, it reinforces what you learn in :lass.

Every day.

Ten minutes a day.

Future

An actress.

What Else About School

If the teachers and principals see kids smoking pot on

the school terrace they don't do anything about it. Sometimes

they take pictures of them.

If You Were Mayor

I would get better teachers.

Pregnant Girls

Take her out of regular school and let her go to a

school for pregnant girls because she may have a fight, get

hurt, and lose the baby.
50

Grace

Skills

I love math and I'm good at it. I'm also good with

horses.

I play basketball.

When I make a basket I feel I have accomplished

When you help the team it's a good feeling. Math is

algebra and working with numbers. I've always liked

I Rive anything that has to with horses.

I would like to play a guitar. I want to act, I

do plays because you show people your talent.

School

something.

fun I like

horses.

love to

I think it's terrific. They're trying to teach us what

wP should know to make it in life.

My school is lika a wild school. There are a lot of

fights. When things calm down they get to the lessons. Everybody is quiet in their favorite classes like math, raading, social

studies and gym.

I'm nice to my teachers because if they have an interest

in me they will want to help me more.

Friends

Most of my friends are indifferent to school but they

go because they realize that thel, need a diploma to get a

job. They go to school, the teacher marks them present and

then they leave (play hooky). They don't go to learn.

Homework

No, I don't get homework very often except math. We

get a work sheet and that's once in a blue moon.

About twice a month.

About 20 minutes - 1/2 hour.

My mother helps me.

Future

really haven't thought about it. I'll probably teach

kindergarten. I like to be with little people.

50
51

Reading

I read biographies, mysteries and boo2,s like Roots.

I learned how one race of people will use and take

advantage of another. I learned about some of the things black

people have gone thxaugh. I learned that if you concentrate

you can solve a problem by using your brain.

What Else About School

Some of the teachers try to teach and some don't care.

A lot of teachers will tell you they get paid whether we learn

or not. Some people don't care about themselves arid some don't

care about other people. They wiil do things regardless of

whether it's right or wrong in order to be accepted.

Jobs

Yes. They ask me how I feel about school. I tell them

I love school. They ask me if I want tc go to college, I

tell them yes.

I plan to stay in until I finish because I'm interested

in school. I like math, reading, the activities. It gives

me a chance to learn. If I get my diploma then I will feel

that I have made it in thif3 waighhorhood.
52

Helen

Skills

I'm taking African dancing. I'm good at it. I also

swim.

I can draw, I make clothes, I play kickbell and basketball.

We had to choose a course in school and I chose dancing.

My mother sews and I sew at home. I learned to play basketball

in gym.

School

I don't like it. I can't stand school because of the

teachers, some of them are nice and some are not. If you kid

around they kick you out of class/school.

People play around and make noise all the time. They also

fight in class.

No, I'm not learning much because I'm sick of school.

There are too many of my friends in the same class and we

talk all the time.

Friends

They don't like it.

Homework

Yes, I get homework but I don't do it because I like to

be outside.

Everyday except Frida.

About 1 hour a day when I do it. The only time I do it

is when I can't go outside or there's nothing else to do.

No, because I know how to do it.

Future

A beautician.
53

Reading

I haven't read anything lately because I'm outside.

Jobs_

Staying in school and getting my diploma because by the

cime I get old enough to get a job you'll have to have one.
54

Irene

Skills

Dancing, shop metal and gymnastics.

I can fix toys and I sing in church.

In 7th grade, we were tes.63d in shop metal, dancing and

gymnastics. I did well in all of them.

School

People do silly things like put signs on people's back.

The boys throw things at the girls to impress them but it

causes fights.

I would try to make students aware of the importance of

edu7;ation and encourage them not to smoke.

Yes, when I first began the semester, my reading level

was 5.2 now its 8.9. My mother helped me. She talked to

me and I did better.

Friends

They UM school.

Homework

Yes.

Every day, 5 timesia,meek.

Two-three hours a day.

My mother; she also checks my homework.

Future

A nurse or teacher.

Reading

I read sometimes, nothing lately.

Unruly Students

The schools should treat them mean. They should have

mock trials and treat them like they treat the teachers.
55

Jobs

4

My mother's friends, my aunt.

. My mother says stay in school, keep your mouth shut, talk

to your friends after school. Get an education. %

I'm not going to drop out.

Go to college.

Pregnant Girls

Treat them normally until about 7 months then put them

out but let them come back after the baby is born and finish

their education.
56

Janet

Skills

Gymnastics and basketball.

Yes, I used to take art and I'm good at drawing.

I'm double jointed that's why I became interested in

gymnastics.

School

It's alright, I like it. There's nothing to it, it's easy.

I am not learning as much as I would like to.

Because I don't want to get too far ahead of my class.

want to stay with the group.

Friends

Some like it and the rest cut classes. They play basketball or get high in the park.

Homework

Yes.

Not often about twice a week.

About an hour a week.

My mother and brother.

Future

I've never really thought about it. I like nursing and

photography.

School can help a little because they can tcar:h the basics

about photography and nursing before you go to college.

Reading

I like to read a little. I've read Damien, Dr. Jekyll

and Mr. Hyde, The Drowning Pool and Jaws.

What Else About School

School is crazy. A lot ot people run around hanging out

in the hallways and parks.

6
Jobs

My counselor.

57

She asked me aboLt my future plans and tells me what I

should or shouldn't be doing.

I'm going to graduate. I need an education.

I want to go in the Marines. If I can't get in I'll get

a job or go to college.
ti

58

Additional Interview Material

The young women in addition to being somewhat older than

the young men--about 1 year--appeared to be more positively

oriented toward school.

In the view of #18 "my teachers are nice. For one thing

they try to get everyone to come to school." And the respondent

continued "I would encourage teachers who are afraid of students

to be stlicter and not just sit back and say I'll get paid

whether they learn or not."

Interviewee #9 showed considerable understanding about

the students who act up in class: "I would put them in special

schools to help them with their problems. Some of them are

neglected and just want attention." But others are unsympathetic

and recommend suspension. Girls who get pregnant should be

sent to "a special school because people tease them and call

them stupid and talk about them." Interviewee #14 suggested

that they stay out of school "because they might get into a

fight and the baby get hurt." But most recommended that they

continue in school till close to their delivery.

One student #20 wanted to take a strong line with those

who disturbed the class: "Troublemakers should be sent to a

separate school far away from their homes. They should spend

the night there and if possible 17e taught manners."

In some cases parents and relatives exert considerable

pressure on the youngster to stay in school and do well. Consider

#2 who reported this is what her parents told her. "Stay in

school, there's nothing out there on the street; you can't be

anything on the street."

Several of the students agreed with #7 that "school sometimes is hectic because we have so many finals and tests."

But another student #8 rf.ports that her friends like school

"because their teacher "3ts them play." Another, #13, reports

that those of her friends who don't like school "play hooky

ber!ause it is boring."

A black student #11 who attends a bilingual school is

uptight because she rapGrts that when "they have shows in the

auditorium everything !.s in Spanish. Even during black history

week the program is mostly in Spanish. Some of my teachers

act as if they don't like black people and I don't like them."
59

6. What the Students Told Us

If one juxtaposes the conventional wisdom about ghetto

schools with the intrJrview materials which we have just presented :;t becomes clear at once that many assumptions and beliefs

about contemporary urban education require reassessment and

correction. Without ascribing any significance to the ordering

of the confrontations between the beliefs that many adults

hold and the views expressed by these young people, the following

issues warrant reassessment.

The assumption that urban education is a wasteland, a

place where the taxpayers' money is squandered by paying the

salaries of teachers who don't teach and students who come to

class to play and not to learn is far wide of the mark. It

is regrettably true that some teachers don't do much teaching

either because of excessive disruption in the classroom or because of their lack of interest or capacity to engage and

interest those who are assigned to them. But if these 80

interviews about the educational situation in the largest

black community in the United States is reasonably representative of large cities the concept of an educational wasteland

is an exaggeration.

What the interviews emphasize is,that most teachers are

interested in having their pupils learn and that most pupils

(those who attend more or less regularly) are interested in

acquiring both knowledge and a diploma. This does not mean

that some teacheri have 'not been defeated in their efforts

to make a real impact on their students or that many students

have not been turned off by their experiences in school. Both

conditions prevail and they are sufficiently pervasive to call

for study and corrective action. But it would be an error to

read the interviews as substantiating the pessimistic view

that the negatives in`the situation have come to dominate.

That is not what oar interviewees reported.

Consider the matter of whether the students read books.

The pessimists hold that many or most ghetto students are so

far behind the reading norms of students who attend schools

outside of low income areas, that for all practical purposes

they must be considered to be only quasi-literate. Such a

judgment is probably extreme. It is improbable that both

our younger &Id older interviewees would have reported that they

borrow books regularly from the school library, from the

neighborhood public library, or from stores in their locality

unless reading for pleasure was a regular activity. Only a

small number said that they did not have a borrowing card

from the public library and only one student stated outright

that she doesn't read much and seldom finishes a book b-cause

she prefers to he outside.

.59
60

Further substantiation that most of them.are readers

can be gained from their replies as to what they had recently

read and what they gained from their reading.

The pessimistsImLght counter with the claim that when one

considers the amount of time that these young peOple devote

to reading and contrasts it with the hours they devote to

watching television one has clear evidence that reading plays

a minor role in their developmental experiences. Admittedly

.it was the exceptional respondent who told us that he or she

preferred to read rather than to watch TV; or that their parents

rationed their watching TV during the school week. But it is

not altogether clear how the greater investment in time in

watching TV should be judged. Truer the shows that these young

people mentioned as being among their favorites did not have

a great deal of intellectual content and it is likely that

watching TV for 3 to 4 hours every evening was a poor investment of their time. But for low-income families TV is the

principal recreational outlet--as it is also for many middleclass families. If a student pays close attention during the

5 hour6 he or she is in school and does 1 to 2 hours homework

a night, one might conclude that several hours of TV watching

should not be considered dysfunctional. The,critical question

is what goes on while the student is in school or preparing

for school. TV is a subsidiary activity.

As noted in Chapter One,part of the conventional wisdom

relates to the presumed weaknesses of low-income families

which many, in and out of the eduCational system, believe

responsible for the low performance of the student body in

inner city schools. We found the evidence of family weakness

much less clear alt. It is true that the reported absence,

or any reference ;.:o a father in the house suggests that many

young people were growing up with only one parent. And that

surely is a source of weakness with respect to emotional

development, standard of living, role models, and much more.

But one must quickly add that a significant minority

of the young people who indicated by indirection that their

father was not a member of the household did refer to other

family members as deeply involved in their development, in

school and out of school. This was surely true of the mother

who was the head of household, but references were made to

grandfathers and grandmothers, aunts and uncles, and especially

older siblings. An elder sibling, even if a member of the

opposite sex, can often be helpful to a young adolescent

especially if he or she has succeeded in breaking through

barriers such as having gained admission tG college. Moreover,

their reports as to how life is in such a new and strange

environment, especially when the reports are positive can help
61

a younger person to set his or her sights a little higher by

having proved through their own performance that passage

into this new world was fr.taSible.

In discussing these intergenerational relations of

students and adults one must emphasize the large number who

hungered and responded to teachers, guidance counselors,

principals who were as they put it "interested in them."

These young people yearned for caring adults who were able and

willing to help them find their way in what is still a very

hostile and discriminatory society for black people.

While it is pure speculation I am willing to assert that

many of those who caused trouble in the classroom and who

early became truants and lost interest in the educational

venture were young people who failed to encounter any caring

adults in or out of school. In many cases their families

were under such great pressure that they lacked attention,

support and love at home and forced back prematurely on

their own resources,they could not cope satisfactorily with

the demands that school and society were making of them.

The girls and young women for the most part seemed to

have somewhat less difficulty than their male counterparts

in adjusting to the discipline of the classroom. Repeatedly

the girls reported that the boys started the fighting. In

fact one or two called attention that the boys found it harder

to sit still and pay attention to the teacher. Some of the

boys accused their teachers of favoring the girls, an accusation that may have some justice if in fact the girls were more

attuned and responsive to what goes on in the classroom.

The girls had a further advantage. Almost with)ut exception they had a role model at home. Their mothers apparently

ruled them with a tighter hand and encouraged them from their

early years in school to attend to their studies so that they

could not only obtain their high school diploma but would

be better positioned to go either into a better job or to

college. This is not the place to enter into that web of

controversy about the black matriarchy and its influence on

the shaping of successive generations of black youngsters

beyond noting that our interviewees speak strongly to the

extra nurturing and support that many black girls received

from their mothers.

In answer to the questions that were related to their

future, particularly those which explored their attitudes

toward college and the world of work, several notes come

through. Interested teachers and guidance counselors often

urged the boys and girls to prepare themselves for the tests

which they had to pass in order tu gain admission to a preferred

61
62

high school or specialized curriculum. Regrettably many

were unable to reach a passing grade and therefore had to

settle for a run-of-the mill high school which offered less

by way of curriculum, staff, linkages with the job market

such as co-op education.

But a sizable proportion of all the young people with

whom we talked had been unaware of any choices open to them

and appear to have been bureaucratically transferred from

elementary to junior to senior high school without so much as

by your leave. In a few cases, mothers were involved and

picked a school for their daughter closer to home though not

necessarily the one which the student wanted to attend or

where she could obtain the best education.

After our interviewing began we spliced a new question

into our inquiry that asked whether the student would be

willing to attend summer school to improve his or her grades

and broaden their later options, even as early as the fourth

grade. With no exceptions, the answer to this hypothetical

question was in the affirmative. There is no way of telling

what these young people would in fact have done had such an

opportunity been available to them, not during one but every

summer but there is reason for believing that a high proportion would have acted in conformity with their positive reply.

After all, most of our respondents considered school important,

did not find attendance burdensome, for the most part they

liked their teachers. Why would they not avail themselves

of an opportunity to get a step ahead?

While going to college was surely not absent from the

plans of many of these young people, the intensity of their

commitment to the idea and their ability to gain admission

remained clouded. In only a rare instance could one find

sufficient resonance in the reply of the young adolescent

to be reasonably sure that he or she would in fact pierce the

college barrier.

As to the occupational choices, the younger age group

for the most part followed the pattern which we first worked

out in Occu ational Choice (Columbia, 1951) which suggested

that at ten and e even TEJ choices of young people were moving out of the fantasy stage and being reported in terms of

emerging interests or perceived abilities. The most popular

choices among the fifteen year old female students was nurse

with teacher in second position, further evidence in support

of two earlier positions: the presence of role models and

the better acculturation of girls to the educational process.

In the case of the boys and young men the dominant

choice was professional athlete reflecting the fact that
63

many excelled in one or another sport; they knew that a

considerable number of black persons had mdde it big in sports;

many were hard pressed to find any other field that attracted

them; and they had relatively little understanding of how

difficult it was to break through and achieve professional

standing in athletics.

Again, after the interviewing had begun we inquired about

whether they knew anybody who, by virtue of completing high

schocl, had secured a good job. And a related question: whom

do they seelc out and talk mith if they want to learn about

jobs.

It is disturbing to report that a considerable number

(a majority) of the older interviewees, not to emphasize the

younger ones,were unable to identify a high school graduate

among their relatives, friends, acquaintances who had found

the diploma as the way into a good job. Equally, if not

more disturbing,were the replies to the question whom they

would consult to learn about jobs and how one prepared for

different types of jobs. A significant number oi the older

interviewees again said that they were unable to identify

such a source. Several mentioned their counselor or center

director. In only one case did the interviewee say his

father, a reply which he extended by pointing out that his

father had recently succeeded in getting his mother a good job.

But if their knowledge of labor market information and

successful job seekers was restricted,the overwhelming

majority stated that graduation from high school, preferably

collegt was an essential precondition for getting a job--

especially one that paid reasonably well and that held promise

for the future. In short, the message had penetrated the

ghetto that school is critically important for later adjustment.

It is unnerving to find the striking gap between this

pervasive belief in the benefit of schooling and the lack of

personal knowledge demonstrated by so many of the interviewees

of individuals who, as a result of completing their education

had been able to make a satisfactory transition into the world

of work. Either the doctrine of the value of an education for

job and career success was false or something else was

seriously awry. Doctrine and life experience were not in

consonance.

In response to the question of what they were planning

to do this summer (the interviews took place in May and June

of 1979) we were struck by tw.) replies that characterized a

large number of the total group. The first was that many

stated that they would be going South, presumptively to visit
64

with relatives. If one has to speculate as to what lies back

of this visitation pattern the probable answers lie first in

the deeire to maintain family ties, that much more important

among groups who have little money to spend on recreation or

other optional expenditures. Secondly, the streets of New

York, especially in low-income areas, are a dysfunctional environment for normal growth and development, and the more so

during the summer months when school is out and the hot

weather shIrtens tempers. Hence, parents who are able to,

"ship" their children South in the belief that the experience

will be benisficial both in terms of what they gain and what

they escape.

The other surprising response to the queJtion as to

what they would do this summer were the considerable number

who said that they would go to camp. Some who indicated that

they would go South added that +they would divide the summer

between visiting relatives and camp but for the most part

these were alternatives. We did not probe as to how long they

would spend at camp or who was paying. The presumption is

that the camp experience would be of relatively short duration,

a fortnight or so, and that it would be subsidized in whole

or in part.

Just to round out the picturelone or two of the older

students indicated that they would get a CETA job or look

for private employment and several others were contemplating

going to summer school.

There are two ways to see the entire group in perspective.

Harsh realities dominate their lives: many families with only

one parent; a level of income that at best enables most families

to exist at a low standard of living; adults, when they are

employed, working for the most part in unskilled occupations;

housing and neighborhoods in disrepair; schools reflecting

conditions in the students' families and the neighborhoods.

The harshness of these realities can be readily appreciated

if one contrasts a middle-class suburban community where two

parent families are the norm; where family income is sufficient

to allow for considerable discretionary expenditures; where

one or both parents is likely to be employed in a managerial

or professional position; where the housing is solid and the

neighborhood secure; and the schools are the pride of the

community.

This sharp contrast suggests that the young people flom

low-income areas in the inner city Vao in addition carry the

heavy added burden of being black will be hard pressed indeed

to find a suitable place for themselves once they stop their

schooling surely if they lack a high school diploma and even
65

if they have acquired one. In fact we can't be sure that

those who remain in school until they acquire a college diploma

will be assurild entrance into a preferred job. Most of them

may eventually succeed but they will have to scramble.

The other perspective, a little less bleak, is to appreciate that while these young people are poorly positioned to

compete for opportunities with the more favored sectors in

American societywhite and middle class--they are not

so far off the reservation as to preclude many of them making . a satisfactory adjustment especially if offered a helping

hand. Our interviewees had demonstrated that they were able

to surmount the harshness of their environment at least to

the extent of trying to make use of the education available

to them recognizing that it was the foundation for their

future. These young people were surely disadvantaged in

competing for the better jobs and careers that a society had

to offer but they were not beyond the fringe. A few would

make it even under present conditions but a larger number

would succeed if our society considered it important to

expand their opportunities.
67

7. Directions for Policy

In the last chapter we identified a short list of serious

defi4ts that were having a negative impact on the developmental experiences of these young people, deficits involving

family structure, parental employment, income, housing, neigh- .

borhood conditions, labor market information and scnooling.

Within the modest dontext of this present effort the principal

objective of which has been to provide the reader with first

hand information about the educational experiences of inner

city youth, this concluding chapter cannot possibly address

all of these deficits, much less articulate possible solutions.

The most that we can venture is to focus on the central issue

of possible changes in the schools which could help strengthen

the position of these young people as they move into the world

of adulthood and work.

A good place to start is to report on the suggestions that

the interviewees made in response to our question as to what a

mayor concerned with strengthening the school system should do.

Almost without exception they replied as follows:

--Hire better teachers and get rid of those who are

no good.

--Improve the school facilities.

--Remove the unruly students so that classroom work

can proceed without interruption.

A few added suggestions about cleaning up the neignborhood, providing more scholarship assistance to facilitate

college attendance, keeping the schools open during the

summer vacation.

It is hard to see how the foregoing recommendations can

be improved upon. They flow directly out of the experiences

of these young people. All tnat we may be able to add is

some order of specificity and some suggestions as to mechanisms

to accomplish the agreed-to gpals.

A. good place to begin the process of specification is

with the role of the principal, including the assistant principals. It should be recalled that the interviewees frequently

refe/i-ed to principals in both favorable and unfavorable terms.

Some were seen as being interested and concerned, basically

supportive, while others acted primarily as disciplinarians

whose major activities were centered around suspending students

who were causing trouble.
68

Even in a bureaucratized city-wide system with a strong

teachers union which has bargained successfully for control

over work rules including the placement, evaluation and

removal of teaching staff, principals are still potent people.

,They are that much more potent if they have the ability and

determination to establish their goals and pursue them

aggressively.

Our interviewees do not make clear just how different

the learning environments in the several schools were and the

extent to which these differences reflect in the first instance

the quality of the principals. But the assumption that the

principal counts, in fact counts a great deal in determining

the effectiveness of a school,is a reasonable starting point

for reform, one surely not contradicted by our interview materials even if not explicitly substantiated.

I would argue therefore that ghetto schools that

operate with acceptable or superior effectiveness should

be identified; the critical elements involving the role

of the principal assessed; and efforts made through inservice and other types of training to speed the diffusion

of approaches that have proved themselves. It makes little

sense to have each assistant principal and principal have

to learn the hard way how he or she gan assure the safety

of the pupils and the staff, establish a rapport with the

student, help the teachers improve their classroom performances, elicit support from parents and the community

and do all the other things that a successful principal

must learn to accomplish.

It does not follow, of course, that every principal who

follows the same course of action will necessarily achieve

comparable results. One principal will have more success in

attracting and retaining competent staff or eliciting the

cooperation of the community. But even allowing for such

differences in command over resources, the performance record

of broadly comparable schools should be relatively narrow,

surely not as wide as at present.

If the successful principal has much to contribute to

his colleagues and the neophytes,the same holds for the successful classroom teacher. Some are able to elicit the interest and

command the attention of their students; others, as our interviewees reportedvare frightened of the students and unable to

teach, spend most of their time and energy trying to control

the class which in many cases they do poorly because their

lack of self-confidance comes through.

Again,if the transfer of stance, attitudes, communication

skills and technical know-how from the successful teacher to

colleagues and newcomers is difficult to structure and implement
69

it nonetheless remains a major challenee. As the students

remarked almost with unanimity: we need more good teachers.

Efforts to accomplish this goal must begin with teachers in

training, both in the classroom and in practice teaching

settings and must continue after they obtain a regular teaching

assignment. Fkillful supervisors who can spend time and

can follcw up with individual and group instruction might make

a significant contribution to raising the average level of

classroom performance.

The great importance that the young people ascribe to the

unruly student in lowering the learning curve of the entire

class suggests that this problem must be confronted and alternatives explored and evaluated. The solution that such students should be suspended as in fact many currently are, or

pushed out of school, as is also a comnon response, is overly

simplistic. While suspension may have the desired result of

shocking a few students into behaving when they are permitted

to return, it is too blunt and too destructive an instrument

to rely upon. If teachers were not restrained from sending

the unruly out of theif'class and principals were not hobbled

when it came to suspensions, the result might be an even larger

floating population of young people who while technically enrolled in schools were in fact on the streets.

But having warned against the indiscriminate use of

removal from the classroom and suspension, the basic issue

remains. How are the unruly to be handled? The fact that

our interviewees came up with few constructive ideas is

depressing.

I do not pretend expertise in this complicated arena

but it might prove possible for schools, beset with these

difficulties, to explore how they could involve leadership

cadres among the students themselves to play a more active

role in enforcing discipline. If most students are interested

in learning, their leaders should be able to help if intelligently involved in keeping the classroom quiet.

A third suggestion beyond stronger staffing and a more

effective response to disturbance is the recommendation of the

young people for more investments in the educational process

first with the focus on improving the physical plant and

secondly and more importantly seeing to it that students

desirous of learning have expanded opportunities to do so by

attending summer school. By analogy one could extend the

latter recommendation to include supervised study in the late

afternoons and special programming f-Dr Saturdays and holidays.

Not so long ago, when the budget of New York City was under

little or no overt pressure these "extras" were common if not

universal. The cynic might point out that even under these
7 0

so-called .yecial conditions the performance of the schools

left a gremz: deal to be desired as measured by what the

students learned, how many obtained a diploma, what proportion were able to gain admission to college. But the answer

is not what the critics believe. To say as they do that the

effects of additional resources are hard to trace in terms of

positive outcomes is not the same as arguing that their elimination is a matter of no moment. One must assc.rie that if such

additional resources were sensibly deployed that they could

expand opportunities at least for some cp., the more involved

students and with time the authorities could learn how to

deploy them more effectively.

One interviewee put forth a specific recommendation that

has on its face much to commend it. He suggested that the city

allogate a special sum for loans and scholarships to be awarded

to those students who maintain a stipulated level of accomplishment so that they could continue with advanced education or

training. If such a "contractual" arrangement were developed

not only for the brightest, but also for those who demonstrated

a high rate of improvement, the secondary effects on the engagement of the student body might be sizable. At least, it is an

idea that Warrants consideration.

It should be recalled that many of our students reported

that they had no say when they were ready to move from elementary

to intermediary to high school. The absence of participation in

the choice process must be viewed as a deprivation that slows

their maturation. The educational authorities should,within

whatever constraints they are forced to operate,recognize that

bureaucratic efficiency -an be bought at too high a price and

that student and parental involvement in such critical decisions

is important. Perhaps the choices open to many will be relatively restricted but they should have some say.

A related matter is not so easy to deal with because it

involves sizable budgetary increases. However, many of our

interviewees called attention to the fact that they would have

liked to enter.one of the vocational high !ichools or vocational

pragrams but were unable to pass the entrance requirements. At

a minimum it would be a good idea if at least a few summer

schools were available in the inner city to enable the interested

student but one with indifferent marks to have the opportunity

through special efforts to brush up on his learning skills so

that.he might scale the entrance barriers.

Much more costly would be a conversion of many high schools

that today offer primarily a general currj.culum in favor vf more

focused vocational instruction where the classroom work was

linked, directly or indir-,ltly, with job opportunities on tho

outside. This is definitely not a plea for the expansion of old

fashioned arts and crafts or even of machine work on antiquated
71

equipment, but rather an integrated effort between school and

work eXperience in the real world in a wide range of occupations where classroom learning is closely linked to skills

needed on the job. Admittedly, such an effort will be difficult to introduce and implement effectively even if the dollars

were available and in most inner city school systems dollars are

and will probably remain scarce. Still, the low effectiveness

of the present high school should operate as a spur to experimentation and innovation along these lines.

One does not have to be P devotee of career education,

counseling, or labor market information to recognize that these

innercity youngsters were conspicuously uninformed about the

world of work, about access to jobs, abcit specific preparation. Having identified their need for assistance, the critical next step is to delineate a group of responses that hold

some promise of broadening their understanding and helping them

. to make a transition into the world of work.

But what is to be done is far from evident. Introducing

some information about jobs into the curriculum will do no harm,

but also probably little good. More and lJetter counselors with

a knowledge of the local labor market would help, but how to

achieve such improvement is far from clear. What these youngsters

badly need is a guided process into part-time summer jobs, and

later into full-time jobs which will introduce them into real

work situations out of which experience they will be able to

deepen their understanding of what a job is really like and

what is required of a worker if he is to hold a job and particularly if he is to position himself to move eventually into a

better one.

It is hard to conceive of any simulated experience, classroom discussion, library work, or counseling substituting for

the reality of experience on a job. But here the school,

operating on its own, cannot deliver. Jobs are under the control of private and public employers and only if they are alple

and wilJling to cooperate with the educational authorities and

offer opportunities to these young people who currently lack

such work exposure and experience can the transitional process

be significantly strengthen . The newly-authorized Private

Industry Councils (PICS) under Title VII of CETA if they fulfill their promise will make a difference. Unless they or

some comparable employer effort is put into place and is implemented, most of these youngsters will concinue to lack the

opportunity they most need. For if they had any assurance

that there was a job at the end of scnool open to them, a

great many would unquestionably apply themselves more conscietiously to their school work. These youngsters, like

middle-class youngstere, will respond if they have a reasonable

chance of succeedieg. They wi31 not if they find that tne cards

are stacked against them This is what these young people told

us about their schooling.
APPENDIXES
75

PENDIX A

"With All Deliberate Speed"

Glenn Marshall

Within the predominantly Black and Hispanic inner-city

communities of New York City, there exists the problmil of miseducation. For at present, thousands of minolity youth, who

attend the public school system, are nmt receiving a decent

education; that is, an education i;hat will enable them to

compete with their white middle-class counterparts of similar

ages. Tt seems as though the public school administrators and

teachers lack the commitment and the courage to provide these

youth with an education that will enable them to become a part

of the mainstream of our society. The reasons given by the

school administrators and teachers vary, but one has to specuate as to why these youth are not receiving a decent education.

Qudstions: is it because thefr backgrounds consist of that of

the working poor and the poor; that is, does their pzesent

social status dictate failure in the academic realm? Is it

because of their ethnicities.? Or is it because they lack the

skills? It seems ironic and absurd :'(:)r the public school

administrators and teachers to believe such things, but some

really feel that Black and Hispanic youth cannot learn and

will not learn under any circumstances. To the contrary,

minority youth are.trying to learn as much as th - can despite

the negative dispositions and beliefs of their pi. ,Icipals and

teachers as well as the spirit of hopelessness embeuded in

their social environments.

For the youth in tha said innercity communities want to

learn and are desperately trying to learn simply because they

knnw the.true value or essencc of acquiring an aducation in

this country. They understtnd fully at an early age that with

an education they can obtain a good life,or at least one that

is better than their present on,via a good job with benefits,

security, etc. To them, acquiring an education means a

fuller life, but they are also a..vare of the fact that they are

being shortchanged by the educational system itself, the class-.

room scene and their social environments. For these factors

are preventing them or at least aro frustrating them in accomplishing their educational goals.

In general, the fo:sty male youths interviewed felt they

were learning as much as possible given their circumstances,

but they also felt that the schools were not providing them

with the skills that will equip them for the future.

example, they felt that such courses as math, science and

language art were inadequate and should be upgraded, for

they were very much in tune with the times; that is, they

were aware of the fact that we live in a technologal age
76

and the future belongs to those who are the most educated or

best prepared. Thus, they preferred seeing a heavy emphasis

on a technological curriculum.

The classroom scene is appalling and frustrating for

these youth. On a daily basis, there is cons'Ant strife

between them and their teachers, for they are always arguing

and shouting at each other. In addition, the learning process

is severely hampered by fights, paper-throwing and horseplaying,

To most of us such an environment is not conducive to

study. How can young people learn in such an uncontrollable

and undisciplined environment? Further, the youth felt that

some of their teachers really don't give a damn about them

learning anything. However, they still persist in learning as

much as possible despite the obstacles.

Finally, their present social environments are not exactly

beds of roses. In such communities as East Harlem and Central

Harlem, the problems of unemployment, underemployment, drugs,

crime, poor housing, poor health and social services only

compound the complex problem of miseducation.

In retrospect, these young people want school

administrators and teachers to care about them. It

doesn't matter to them what the administrators' and

teachers' ethnic backgrounds are as long as they give

a damn about their future.
'77

APPENDIX B

"Summary Vie-is"

GWendolyn Barnes

These interviews focus attention on several areas within

the educational system as it attempts to educate inner-city

Black youth. The participants -4re 40 females between 10 and

15 years of age--39 were Black aud 1 was HIspanic. All of

them live in the inner-city predomiAently with working parents

and many in intact families.

Through the eyes of the younger girls (10-11 year olds)

even the elementary schools have their share of disruptive

students. Second only to teacher apathy, classroom disruptions

seem to be a major concern among pupils. Teacher apathy tends

to encourage some students to be disruptive. Moreover, apathetic

4 teachers seem to perpetuate disruptive behilvior by the students.

Aqcording to thz pupils the teachers appear frustrated and seem

to' have given up on them. Put simply, they are uninvolved. As

a result, the students see them as helpless and passive. This

adds to the students' confusion and compounds their own feelings

of frustration ahd helplessness. They feel they are being,victimized twice: first by the teachers who can't cope and then

by their fellow students. When "trouble-makers" inteferred with

the learning process, their classmates overwhelmingly felt they

should be separated from the rest of the students, either by

putting them in separate schools or separate classrooms. Some

students said they were not learning anything in school. TheY

felt that the teachers' inability to deal effectively with

trouble-makers and to control the class were the main causes

of the problem.

There is a strong tendency on the part of many teachers

to give homework and most pupils receive help with it from

their parents (usually their mothers) or siblings. The

majority of the interviewees felt homework is important

because it reinforces classwork, yet it is seldom collected

or even checked by the teachers who assign it. Reading seems

to be popular among the youth who were interviewed and is encouraged by some teachers. Most often encouragement is in the

form of an incentive such as a lottery ticket given to the child

who reads the most backs. Incidentally, with few exceptions,

the students said they enjoy reading and feel that it improves

their vocabularies.

Although these youth are growing up daring an era when

there are many unconventional job opportunities available to

women, most favored traditionally female occupations such as

nursing and teaching. Regardless of their expressed occupational interest, the majority of -tudents felt that an education was nec:Issary in order to attain their goals. There wao

7 4
78

evidence of an enormous amount of peer pressure exerted upon

them to participate in certain activities. When asked how

they became interested in a particular activity, i.e., basketball; the response was usually "my friends play basketball and

they got me interested." After peer pressure, school and family

. members ranked second and third in the ability to influence the

kinds of activities the youth engaged in. Most of the pupils

said their friends liked school and indicated that those who

did not like it were bored.

In contrast to the younger children, the teenagers appear

to have a cynical attitude towards school. Perhaps they are

more realistic. They expressed the same feelings of frustration and helplessness with regard to apathetic uninvolved

teachers and seemed to have resigned themselves to the situation.

This was conveyed more through non-verbal communication then by

what they actually said. Many teenagers recognized that at

least a high school diploma is necessary in order tc.) even get

most jobs today. However, it is my sense that the majority ofe

the interviewees felt that getting a high school diploma did

not.mean they had acquired a high school education; a diploma

was merely their ticket out of high school. Some of ti-em felt

they could obtain the skill and knowledge which they should have

received in high school by going to college or business school.

The teenagers,like the younger girls,tended to choose

traditionally female occupations. The women's liberation

movement does not seem to have affected them.

Many of the teenagers felt they were skilled in sports

and,like the younger girls,exprested a preference at becoming

more adept in this area. When choosing activities in which to

participate, school, family and friends (in that order) appear

to exert the greatest influence. 'This was not true of the

10-11 year olds because peer pressure was very powerful and

ranked number one. The teenagers seemed to have more significant others in their lives and knew more people (unrelated

to them) who had graduated from high school and had "good

jobs.

When asked abr,ut improving the educational system, it

was generally indicated that getting more qualified teachers

and making the schools more attractive (pretty, clean, etc.)

were priorities. They also felt that trouble-makers should

be separated from the rest of the student body. Homework

was considered important because it reinforced classworx.

Almost all of the students felt pregnant girls should be

allowed to continue their education. Interestingly, those

who disapp-nved stated that the expectant mother might get

in a fight at school and the unborn child could be injured.

111
79

For this reason they felt that pregdant girls should go to

a special school for expectant mothers only.

Both groups indicated that they have a high percentage

of substitute teachers. They related the high rate of

absenteeism to disruptive, disrespectful students. Moreover,

the teenagers appeared to resent the high rate of absenteeism

most. In general, their attitude was if the teachers were

more qualified, they would know how to handle the troublemakers and they would be able to control their classes. The

younger children, on the other hand, seemed to blame themselves

for the high rate of teacher absenteeism. As one student put

it, some of the kids-were unruly, disrespectful ani did not

listen to their teachers, go the teachers stayed out. Maybe

if the kids acted better the teachers would come to school

more often.

The teenagers who felt that their friends didn't like

school said they (their friends) were aware that they needed

at least a high school diploma in order to get a job. Tiy

attended school only to be marked present. Once this was

accomplished, their friends played hooky. They did not participate in any class activities but were passed anyway.

Are tile bright 10 year olds destined to become cynical

15 year olds,or will the Board of Education f lfill its

responsibility to give all children a chance to learn?
Special Reports of the National Commission for Employment

Policy

411111

Proceedings of a Conference on Public

Service Employment, Special Report No. 1,

May 1975

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291135)

Manpower Program Coordination, Special

Report No. 2, October 1975

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291217)

Recent European Manpower Policy Initiatives,

Special Report No. 3, November 1975

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291242)

* Proceedings of a Conference on the Role of

the Business Sector in Manpower Policy,

Special Report No, 4, November 1975

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291281)

Proceedings of a Confefence on Employment

Problems of Low Income Groups, Special

Report No. 5, February 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291212)

* Proceedings of a Conference on Labor's Views

on Manpower Policy, Special Report No. 6,

Rbruary 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291213)

Current Issues in the Relationship Between

Manpower Policy and Research, Special

Report No. 7, March 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291295)

* The Quest for a National Manpower Policy

Framework, Special Report No. 8, April 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 292713)

The Economic Position of Black Americans:

1976, Special Report No. 9, July 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291282)

* Reexamining European Manpower Policies,

Special Report No. 10, August 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291216)

Employment Impacts of Health Policy

Developments, Special Report No. 11,

October 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: HRP 0019007)

Demographic Trends and Full Empfoyment,

Special Report No. 12, December 1976

(NTIS Accession NC4: PB 291214)

Directions for a National Manpower Policy: A

Report on the Proceedings of Three Regional

Conferences, Special Report No. 13,

December 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291194)

* Directions for a National Manpower Policy: A

Collection of Policy Papers Prepared for Three

Regional Conferences, Special Report Mo. 14,

December 1976

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291274)

Adjusting Hours to Increase Jobs: An

Analysis of the Options, Special Report No.

15, September 1977

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296735)

Community Based Organizations In Manpower

Program and Policy: A Conference Report,

Special Report No. 16, October 1977

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296954)

The Need to Disaggregate the Full Employment

Goal, Special Report No. 17, January 1978

(NTIS Accession No.; PB 296728)

The Effects of Increases In Imports on

Domestic Employment: A Clarification of

Concepts, Special Report No. 18, January 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296826)

" The Transformation of the Urban Economic

Base, Special Report No. 19, February 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296833)

* Manpower and Immigration Policies in the

United Sates, Special Report No. 20,

February 't 978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 284216)

Dual Aspect Jobs, Special Report No. 21,

March 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296779)

Labor Market Intermediaries, Special Report

No. 22, March 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296656) Cr.TA: An Analysis of the Issues, Special

Report No. 23, May 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296641)

* Discouraged Workers, Potential Workers, and

National Employment Policy, Special Report

No. 24, June 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296827)

" Labor's View on Employment Policies: A

Conference Summary, Special Report No. 25,

JUne 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 296748)

* Women's Changing Roles at Home and on the

Job, Special Report No. 26, September 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 294987)

European Labor Market Policies, Special

Report No. 27, September 1978

We.* Time and Employment, Special Report

No. 28, October 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 300652)

Increasing Job Opportunities in the Private

Sector, Special Report No. 29, November 1978

Trade and Employment, Special Report No.

30, November 1978

" Reports listed above available from

National Technical information Service (NTIS)

5285 Port Royal Road

Springfield, Virginia 22151

Use Accession Numbers when ordering.

Reports listed above P*,ai I ab I e from the

National Commission )r Employment Policy at

1522 K Street, NW, Suite 300, Washington,

D.C. 20005.
Special Reports of the National Commission for Employment

Polley

* The Business Sector Role in Employment

Policy, Special Report No. 31, November 1978

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 300415).

* Monitoring the Public-Service Employment

Program: The Second Round, Special Report

No. 32, March 1979

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 300370)

The Utilization of Older Workers, Special

Report No. 33, March 1979

Temporary Admission of Foreign Workers:

Di,mensions and Policies, Special Report

No. 34, March 1979

Toll Me About Your School, Special Report

No. 351 September 1979

Reports listed above available from

National Technical Information Service (NTIS)

5285 Port Royal Road

Springfield, Virginia 22151

Use Accession Numbers when ordering.

Reports listed above available from the

National Commission for Employment Policy at

1522 K Street, NW, Suite 300, Washington,

D.C. 20005.

JO.M. S: Fri' 7s
INTERIM AND ANNUAL REPORTS OF THE

NATIONAL COMMISSION FOR EMPLOYMENT POLICY

* An Interim Report to the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower Policy: The

Challengeof Rising Unemployment, Report No. 1, February 1975. (NTIS Accession No.: PB 291136)

" An Interim Report to the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower Policy: Public

Service Employment and Other Responses to Continuing Unemployment, Report No. 2, June 1975.

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291280)

" First Annual Report to the President and the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower

Policy: Toward a National Manpower Policy, Report No. 3, October 1975. (NTIS Accession No.: PB 291243)

An interim Report to the President and the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower

Policy: Addressing Continuing High Levels of U, ,mployment, Report No. 4, April 1976.

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291292)

a Second Annual Report to the President and the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower

Policy: An Employment Strategy for the United States-Next Steps, Report No. 5, December 1976.

(NTIS Accession No.: PB 291215)

a An interim Report to the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower Policy: Job Creation

Through Public Service Employment, Report No. 6, March 1978. (NTIS Accession No: PB282539)

Third Annual Report to the President and the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower

Policy: An Assestvaent of CETA,bReport No. 7, May 1978 (NTIS Accession No.: PB 296829)

Fourth Annual iieport to the Prgsident and the Congress of the National Commission for Manpower Policy:

An Enlargeu Role for the Private Sector in Federal Employment and Training Programs, Report No. 8,

December 1978. (NTIS Accession No.: PB 296830)

Reports are available from National Technical information Service (NTIS), 5285 Port Royal Road,

Springfield, Virginia 22151. Use Accession Numbers when ordering.

Reports listed above are available from the Commission at 1522 K Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20005.

BOOKS PUBLISHED FOR THE

NATIONAL COMMISSION FOR EMPLOYMENT POLICY

which may be obta!ned from the publishers

at the addresses lndicated below:

From School to Work: Improving the Transition, Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government

Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402, August 1976. Stock No. 040-000-00364-9. Price $3.00

Employability, Employment and Income: A Reassessment of Manpower Policy, Olympus Publishing

Company, Salt Lake City, Utah 84105, September 1976.

Jobs for Americans, Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey 07632, October 1976.