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S. HRG. 114–667 

NOMINATIONS OF THE 114TH CONGRESS, 

FIRST SESSION 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

May 5, September 30, and November 17, 2015 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia, Chairman 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas 

DEAN HELLER, Nevada 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota 

THOM TILLIS, North Carolina 

DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska 

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut, Ranking 

Member 

PATTY MURRAY, Washington 

BERNARD SANDERS, (I) Vermont 

SHERROD BROWN, Ohio 

JON TESTER, Montana 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

TOM BOWMAN, Staff Director 

JOHN KRUSE, Democratic Staff Director 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

MAY 5, 2015 

NOMINATIONS OF DAVID J. SHULKIN, M.D., TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR HEALTH

AND LAVERNE H. COUNCIL TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS

AFFAIRS

SENATORS 

Page 

Isakson, Hon. Johnny, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Georgia ............................ 1 

Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Connecticut ... 2 

Rounds, Hon. Mike, U.S. Senator from South Dakota ......................................... 71 

Brown, Hon. Sherrod, U.S. Senator from Ohio ..................................................... 73 

Tillis, Hon. Thom, U.S. Senator from North Carolina .......................................... 75 

Tester, Hon. Jon, U.S. Senator from Montana ...................................................... 77 

Sullivan, Hon. Dan, U.S. Senator from Alaska ..................................................... 79 

Manchin, Hon. Joe, III, U.S. Senator from West Virginia ................................... 82 

Moran, Hon. Jerry, U.S. Senator from Kansas ..................................................... 84 

Hirono, Hon. Mazie K., U.S. Senator from Hawaii ............................................... 86 

Cassidy, Hon. Bill, U.S. Senator from Louisiana .................................................. 109 

WITNESSES 

Casey, Hon. Robert, Jr., U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania ................................... 3 

Shulkin, David J., M.D., Nominee to be Under Secretary for Health, U.S. 

Department of Veterans Affairs .......................................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 6 

Questionnaire for Presidential nominees ....................................................... 9 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 64 

Letter from the nominee to the Office of General Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs .............................................................................. 65 

Response to posthearing questions submitted by: 

Hon. Dan Sullivan ........................................................................................ 113 

Hon. Sherrod Brown ..................................................................................... 114 

Council, LaVerne H., Nominee to be Assistant Secretary of Veterans Affairs 

for Information and Technology, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs .......... 88 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 90 

Questionnaire for Presidential nominees ....................................................... 91 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 103 

Letter from the nominee to the Office of General Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs .............................................................................. 104 

Response to posthearing questions submitted by: 

Hon. Richard Blumenthal ............................................................................ 115 

Hon. Dan Sullivan ........................................................................................ 116 

Hon. Sherrod Brown ..................................................................................... 116 

Page

IV 

SEPTEMBER 30, 2015 

NOMINATION OF MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF

LABOR FOR VETERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

SENATORS 

Isakson, Hon. Johnny, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Georgia ............................ 119 

Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Connecticut ... 120 

Rounds, Hon. Mike, U.S. Senator from South Dakota ......................................... 233 

Brown, Hon. Sherrod, U.S. Senator from Ohio ..................................................... 234 

Moran, Hon. Jerry, U.S. Senator from Kansas ..................................................... 236 

Hirono, Hon. Mazie K., U.S. Senator from Hawaii ............................................... 237 

Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas .............................................. 238 

Manchin, Hon. Joe, III, U.S. Senator from West Virginia ................................... 239 

Sullivan, Hon. Dan, U.S. Senator from Alaska ..................................................... 241 

WITNESSES 

King, Hon. Angus, U.S. Senator from Maine ........................................................ 121 

Michaud, Michael H., Nominee to be Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans’ Employment and Training, U.S. Department of Labor ......................... 122 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 124 

Questionnaire for Presidential nominees ....................................................... 126 

Letters from the Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 166 

Letter from the nominee to the Office of General Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs .............................................................................. 167 

Response to prehearing questions submitted by Hon. Johnny Isakson ....... 168 

Response to posthearing questions submitted by Hon. Thom Tillis ............ 243 

APPENDIX 

Walz, Hon. Timothy J., Member of Congress; letter ............................................. 245 

Rowan, John, National President, Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA); letter .. 247 

NOVEMBER 17, 2015 

NOMINATION OF MICHAEL J. MISSAL TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

SENATORS 

Isakson, Hon. Johnny, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Georgia ............................ 249 

Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Connecticut ... 250 

Rounds, Hon. Mike, U.S. Senator from South Dakota ......................................... 274 

Manchin, Hon. Joe, III, U.S. Senator from West Virginia ................................... 275 

Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas .............................................. 277 

Tester, Hon. Jon, U.S. Senator from Montana ...................................................... 278 

Cassidy, Hon. Bill, U.S. Senator from Louisiana .................................................. 280 

Brown, Hon. Sherrod, U.S. Senator from Ohio ..................................................... 282 

Sullivan, Hon. Dan, U.S. Senator from Alaska ..................................................... 283 

WITNESSES 

Missal, Michael J., Nominee to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of 

Veterans Affairs ................................................................................................... 252 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 254 

Questionnaire for Presidential nominees ....................................................... 256 

Letters from the Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 266 

Letter from the nominee to the Office of General Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs .............................................................................. 267 

Response to request arising during the hearing by Hon. Mike Rounds ...... 275 

Response to posthearing questions submitted by: 

Hon. Johnny Isakson .................................................................................... 289 

Hon. Dean Heller .......................................................................................... 293 

Hon. Mike Rounds ........................................................................................ 294 

(1) 

HEARING ON PENDING NOMINATIONS 

TUESDAY, MAY 5, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:29 p.m., in room 

418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Johnny Isakson, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Isakson, Moran, Boozman, Cassidy, Rounds, 

Tillis, Sullivan, Blumenthal, Brown, Tester, Hirono, and Manchin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHNNY ISAKSON, CHAIRMAN, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA 

Chairman ISAKSON. This hearing of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs 

Committee will come to order. 

I would like to welcome our two nominees and witnesses for their 

testimony. Dr. David Shulkin to serve as VA’s Under Secretary of 

Health and Ms. LaVerne Council to serve as VA’s Assistant Secretary for Information Technology. We will make opening statements to begin with and start first with Dr. Shulkin’s testimony 

after we are finished and after the introduction by Senator Casey. 

Dr. Shulkin, you are going to be in charge of an agency that has 

1,600 facilities and 300,000 employees. We have criticized Wall 

Street as being too big to fail. I am not sure you have the skill to 

manage a group of 300,000. I do not think anybody does. It is a 

monolithic, huge organization and it is a tremendous challenge. 

However, we are grateful that somebody like yourself is willing to 

take on that challenge. We want you to be mindful it needs to be 

improved to be a responsive organization to the needs of our veterans, and also the needs of this Committee. 

Quite frankly, to me, I think there is an attitude within the VA 

health system of denial in terms of some of the problems that exist 

in the system. We found that out most recently in our trip to Denver, CO, where the Ranking Member and I saw a hospital that has 

been 13 years in the making. It is now up to $1.6 billion in cost 

when it was initially going to cost $348 million. Further, it does not 

seem that anybody has been in charge. I think we need to get the 

VA health system out of the business of building buildings and into 

the business of saving lives. So, I hope your testimony will focus 

on how you intend to do some of those things. 

For Ms. Council, who I had the pleasure of meeting a moment 

ago and will be second on our panel, I would just like to say that 

information technology is everything in this day and time. I understand the Department of Defense has a $4 billion Request for ProVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
2 

posal (RFP) out for somebody to come in and work with their 

health IT, and I understand the health IT supplier to the Veterans 

Administration is not one of the finalists. I am interested in finding 

out what you might think about the interoperability of VA health 

care and DOD health care in terms of information technology, because one of the biggest problems we have with our veterans, they 

come home from Afghanistan, they get out of Walter Reed or Fisher House or Malone House, they sever from the military, and then 

they go into VA health care. Then, they fall through the cracks because there is not a smooth, seamless transition for the veterans. 

So, how information technology can help solve that problem is 

something I would be interested in hearing from you. 

We are proud of both of you and your nominations. We look forward to your testimony. 

I will recognize Richard Blumenthal, the Ranking Member, for 

his comments. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, 

RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Let me begin by 

thanking both the nominees here today for their willingness to 

serve and thank you to Senator Casey for being here, a staunch 

and very vigorous advocate of our veterans. We are all proud to 

serve with him in the U.S. Senate. 

I do not need to tell anyone in this room, certainly neither of our 

nominees, that we continue to be in crisis mode management in the 

Department of Veterans Affairs. As the Chairman has remarked, 

the poster building for that crisis is in Colorado, a half-completed, 

vacant shell which will cost a billion dollars more than was projected. That is a billion dollars that should not come from other 

veterans health care. That is a principle that I will fight to uphold. 

In addition to the construction delays and cost overruns, there 

are more than 430,000 veterans who still cannot access health care 

within 30 days. Even more than a year after the Phoenix debacle 

and the approval of the Veterans Access, Choice, and Accountability Act of 2014 by the Congress, there remain delays and inadequacies in that system of health care that I know you will help 

to address. 

The concern I want to highlight here really relates to the fact 

that we have only two nominees present today. There are seven positions that require Senate confirmation occupied by officials serving in an interim or acting capacity and we only have two to fill 

those seven vacancies with us today. Your being here is in no way 

to blame. In fact, it is a good thing that the administration is moving forward with your nominations. But, we need people in positions of permanent leadership to guide and set policy for the VA 

and the people in those positions need to have the assurance and 

the permanency of Senate confirmation. 

Finally, the claims backlog continues to be a problem. In fact, the 

Board of Veterans Appeals is chaired by an acting person, and continues to be without a Senate confirmed chairman. 

Likewise, the position of Inspector General, important to accountability, remains under the leadership of an acting official. I 

have called for outside investigations, in part because I have 

3 

doubts about whether or not the Inspector General in the VA has 

the resources, the expertise, and independence to do these investigations vigorously and aggressively. I think it is important for the 

American people to be assured that there is accountability. 

So, I welcome you here today. I want to thank you very wholeheartedly for bringing to the VA the kinds of extraordinary backgrounds that each of the nominees has and the expertise and experience that you volunteered to give the United States and for your 

background of service to our Nation. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. 

I am pleased to welcome Senator Casey to the Committee for the 

purpose of introducing the first nominee. Senator Casey. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT P. CASEY, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

PENNSYLVANIA, INTRODUCING DAVID J. SHULKIN, M.D. 

Senator CASEY. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I am honored to be able to appear before you and to appear on behalf of Dr. 

Shulkin. I want to thank you, Chairman Isakson and Ranking 

Member Blumenthal for this opportunity. 

I am honored to be here and also honored to introduce Dr. David 

Shulkin, a fellow Pennsylvanian, as the nominee for Under Secretary of Health for the Department of Veterans Affairs. Pennsylvania is home, as some here might know, to one million veterans 

and also numerous VA medical centers, outpatient clinics, and regional offices. 

I had the opportunity recently to sit with Dr. Shulkin and to 

walk through some of the major concerns that I have, many of 

which, if not all of which, have been outlined and articulated by 

the Chairman and the Ranking Member. Among those, of course, 

are lack of reporting and accountability during—in Pittsburgh, the 

Legionnaires outbreak, something we had not seen on a broadbased scale in years, also, the challenges with regard to access to 

quality care at all VA centers and hospitals around the country. We 

do not have time to itemize all the challenges, but they are many, 

they are substantial, and they have played out in my homestate of 

Pennsylvania, unfortunately, as well as many other places around 

the country. 

It is evident that we have challenges. It is also evident to me 

that Dr. Shulkin will bring significant experience and sterling credentials to this job, and he will, as you both indicated, need all of 

that experience to do this job well. 

It is clear that the challenges facing the VA are enormous and 

there is, indeed a crisis of confidence within the VA itself, certainly 

within VA health care. 

Just by way of his educational background, Dr. Shulkin received 

a B.A. from Hampshire College and an M.D. from the Medical College of Pennsylvania. He performed his internship at Yale University School of Medicine and a residency and fellowship in general 

medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Presbyterian Medical Center. He then finally received advanced training in outcomes research and economics as a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Clinical Scholar at the University of Pennsylvania. I mention those not 

simply to reiterate his Pennsylvania ties but to highlight his academic credentials. 

4 

More recently, as the President of Morristown Medical Center, 

Dr. Shulkin oversaw a 658-bed facility which has received awards 

for excellence in care and its high quality work environment. He 

served in leadership positions in major health centers, including as 

CEO of Beth Israel Medical Center in New York and Chief Medical 

Officer of several Philadelphia hospitals. 

With experience as president of a large and well regarded private 

hospital network, I believe Dr. Shulkin has the experience necessary to oversee the largest integrated health care system in the 

United States of America and make the needed changes to improve 

this system. 

It is crucial that the person who fills this position is committed 

and passionate—passionate—about taking care of our veterans. 

Our veterans and their families have sacrificed greatly for our 

country and they deserve nothing less than the highest quality of 

care that they have earned. I have confidence that Dr. Shulkin will 

be successful and I urge his confirmation. 

Thank you very much. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you very much, Senator Casey. 

Under the rules of the Committee, the testimony of all Presidential nominees appearing before the Committee must be taken 

under oath. I would ask you to stand, Dr. Shulkin. Please raise 

your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 

about to give to the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee will be the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Dr. SHULKIN. I do. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you. Please be seated. 

You are recognized for up to 5 minutes for your testimony, Dr. 

Shulkin. 

STATEMENT OF DAVID J. SHULKIN, M.D., NOMINEE TO BE 

UNDER SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member 

Blumenthal, distinguished Members of the Committee on Veterans’ 

Affairs, and to everyone who is here today that cares deeply about 

the health of our veterans, thank you for the opportunity and privilege to address you. I am deeply honored to come before you today 

to seek your endorsement as the Under Secretary of Health in the 

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 

Briefly, I am grateful that my wife, Dr. Merle Bari, is here with 

me today. I met her in medical school and have been married to 

her for 27 years. Her encouragement and support during this process and her commitment to our veterans has inspired me. 

We are here with our daughter, Jennifer, who will graduate this 

month with a degree in Communication and Public Service from 

the University of Pennsylvania then will attend law school in the 

fall. Not able to join us today is our son, Daniel, who will graduate 

this month from NYU with a Master’s in Public Administration. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Where is Jennifer? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Jennifer. 

Chairman ISAKSON. She is very pretty. We are glad to have you, 

Jennifer. 

5 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. [Laughter.] 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. And your wife? 

Dr. SHULKIN. My wife, Merle. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. She is very pretty, too. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. [Laughter.] 

She got me a lot of credit, Senators. Thank you. 

Over the past few weeks, I have had the opportunity to speak to 

many of you, as well as countless others around the country, about 

their concerns for the VA health system. I appreciate both the candor of these conversations and the overwhelming support and commitment I have encountered for improving VA. 

I know this past year has been extraordinary difficult for veterans and all of those who care so much about providing the type 

of care and services our American heroes deserve. We all agree the 

status quo is simply not acceptable. 

I want to assure you that, if confirmed, it would be my sole mission each and every day to transform the VA health system into 

one that provides our veterans with the highest level of quality 

care. If confirmed, I pledge to work with you to restore the trust 

and pride in our VA health care system. I recognize the gravity of 

the mission before us and what is at stake if together we do not 

succeed in making the necessary changes and improvements. 

My connection to those who have served this country is well ingrained in my fabric. I was born on an Army base in Highland 

Park, IL. My father, Dr. Mark Shulkin, was a captain in the U.S. 

Army, and as a psychiatrist cared for active military on the base. 

Both of my grandfathers served in the U.S. Army in World War I, 

and my paternal grandfather, Joseph Shulkin, served as Chief 

Pharmacist at the Madison, WI, VA. He very strongly believed it 

was our duty to give back to those who served, and I have wholeheartedly embodied this message. 

My wife and I spent considerable time at numerous VA hospitals 

during medical school and in our residency training. Given that experience and continued engagements with VA during the course of 

my career, it was difficult for me to watch from the sidelines last 

year as the failings of the VA system continued to come to light. 

I am honored that President Obama has nominated me to be 

part of the team that puts the pieces back together again and 

builds a stronger and more capable system to serve our veterans. 

I was trained as an internal medicine physician and a researcher 

in health outcomes. My career has focused on managing large 

health care systems and improving quality, patient safety, and integrating systems of care. Although I have spent much of my time 

in management and administration, my core identity has remained 

as a physician and caregiver. I have focused on helping patients 

and their families obtain better quality care, improving the access 

and scheduling of patient appointments, and working to facilitate 

the transparency of outcomes. 

I have led a number of complex health care organizations, including a large inner-city hospital, and I have worked in some of the 

country’s best academic health care systems and medical schools. 

I have worn the hat of entrepreneur, clinician, author, teacher, and 

researcher. 

6 

I have learned there are no shortcuts to achieving great results. 

Success requires creating a vision, setting high standards, engaging 

the workforce, focusing on implementation, ensuring open and regular communication, and holding ourselves accountable. 

During these past 25 years, I have learned a great deal about 

how to help complex organizations achieve excellence, and I believe 

this experience will serve me in working with Secretary McDonald 

and each of you to guide the transformation of the VA system. 

The VA needs change. The VA needs more doctors, more nurses, 

and greater efficiency from its current systems. It needs to advance 

its culture of accountability and eliminate those from the system 

that have lost their commitment for doing what is right for our veterans. Progress is being made, but there is still much work to be 

done. 

While recognizing the extraordinary work that occurs in the VA 

every day, the time has come to create the VA system of the future, 

a system that has superior access and the highest standards for 

quality and quality of caring. I have spent time with Secretary 

McDonald and his team and have seen his passion and vision for 

doing what it will take to make these changes. 

I seek the position of Under Secretary of Health because I believe 

it is my duty to utilize my experience and my expertise to find a 

solution for the best health care possible for our veterans. With the 

support of Members of this Committee and others in Congress, Veterans Service Organizations, the dedicated employees at VA, and 

the American people, together, we can make the VA the finest 

health care system in the country. 

There is no more noble mission and it will be my distinct honor 

and privilege to be at the forefront of this effort. Our veterans deserve the very best, and with your support, I am confident that we 

will succeed in our mission. 

Thank you. I look forward to answering any questions. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Shulkin follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVID J. SHULKIN, M.D., NOMINEE TO BE UNDER

SECRETARY OF HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, Distinguished Members of the 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, and to everyone who is here today that cares deeply 

about the health of our Veterans, thank you for the opportunity and privilege to address you. I am deeply honored to come before you today to seek your endorsement 

to become the Undersecretary for Health in the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. 

I’m grateful that several members of my family are with me today. First, my wife, 

Dr. Merle Bari, who I met in medical school and have been married to for 27 years. 

Her encouragement and support during this process and her commitment to our 

Veterans have inspired me. We are here with our daughter Jennifer, who will graduate next month from the University of Pennsylvania and will be attending law 

school in the Fall. My parents are also here with us today. My dad, Dr. Mark 

Shulkin is a psychiatrist who served as a Captain in the United States Army and 

my mother Sunny Shulkin, a psychotherapist. Both of my parents inspired me not 

only to pursue a career in medicine, but to always put the patient first. Not able 

to join us today is our son, Daniel, who will graduate next month from NYU where 

he will receive a Masters in Public Administration. 

Over the past few weeks I have had the opportunity to speak to many of you, and 

heard from many others around the country about their concerns for the VA health 

system. I appreciate both the candor of these conversations and the overwhelming 

support and commitment I have felt from so many about improving the VA Health 

System. I know these past several months have been extraordinarily difficult for 

Veterans and all of those who care so much about providing the type of care and 

7 

services our American heroes deserve. I hear the disappointment and frustration 

that so many feel about the VA. We all agree: The status quo is simply not acceptable. I want to assure you, that if confirmed, It will be my sole mission and focus 

each and every day to ensure that we rebuild the VA health system to be one that 

provides our Veterans with the highest level of quality care. If confirmed, I pledge 

to work with you to restore trust and pride in our VA health care system. I also 

want to ensure you that I recognize the gravity of the mission before us and what 

is at stake, if together we do not succeed in making the necessary changes and improvements. 

My connection to those that have served this country is well engrained in my fabric. I was born on an Army base in Highland Park Ill. My father cared for active 

military on the base and throughout my life has sensitized me to the psychological 

and medical needs of those who served our country. Both of my grandfathers served 

in the US Army in World War I and my paternal grandfather, Joseph Shulkin, 

served as Chief pharmacist at the Madison Wisconsin VA. He would regularly share 

with us that it was all of our duties to give back to those who served our country. 

My wife and I both spent considerable time in numerous VA Hospitals during both 

medical school and in our residency training. I am indebted to the dedicated health 

professionals at the Philadelphia VAMC, the West Haven VAMC and the Pittsburgh 

VAMC who contributed to my training and learning. Given that experience, and 

continued engagements with VA during the course of my career, it was difficult for 

me to have watched from the sidelines last year, as the failings of the system came 

to light. I am honored that President Obama has nominated me to be part of the 

team that puts the pieces back together again and builds a much stronger and more 

capable system to serve our Veterans. 

I was trained as an internal medicine physician and a researcher in health policy 

and the assessment of clinical outcomes. .My career has focused on managing large 

health systems and improving quality, patient safety, and integrated systems of 

care. Although I have spent much of my time in management and administration, 

my core identity has remained as a physician and caregiver. My focus remains on 

providing patients and their families with quality care by accountable organizations. 

Over my career I have developed systems that helped people choose better quality 

doctors and hospitals, enhanced reporting and learning from patient safety incidents, improved access and scheduling patient appointments, and facilitated the 

transparency of outcomes. I have also launched and run an accountable care organization and a physician organization that have worked tirelessly to identify and 

eliminate gaps in care and have demonstrated real improvements in quality. If confirmed, I look forward to bringing this experience, and my priorities and focus to 

support the VA system. 

Over the past 25 years, I have led a number of complex health care organizations, 

including a large inner city hospital and some of the country’s best academic 

healthcare systems and medical schools. I’ve worked as an entrepreneur, clinician, 

author, teacher, and researcher. In my current capacity as President of Morristown 

Medical Center, a large tertiary care hospital in Northern New Jersey that is part 

of the Atlantic Health System, I have provided leadership during a period of great 

transformation. Over the last five years, we have been recognized by Inside New 

Jersey and Castle Connelly as the ‘‘Best Overall’’ hospital in the state in almost all 

clinical categories. We’ve been identified as the safest hospital in the state by Consumer Reports, selected by Fortune Magazine as one of the best places to work in 

America, and named by US News and World Report as having five specialties in 

the top 50 in the country. All of this occurred during a time that we have improved 

both our clinical outcomes, our patient satisfaction scores and our financial strength. 

While leading this institution, I have learned there are no shortcuts to achieving 

great results. It requires creating a vision, setting high standards, engaging the 

workforce, focusing on implementation, ensuring open and regular communication, 

and holding people accountable. During these past 25 years I have learned a great 

deal about how to help complex organizations achieve excellence and I believe this 

experience will serve me well in working with Secretary McDonald and each of you 

to guide in the transformation of the VA system. 

The VA needs change. The VA needs more doctors, more nurses, and greater efficiency from its current systems. It needs to advance its culture of accountability and 

eliminate those from the system that have lost their commitment to doing what is 

right for our Veterans. While progress is being made, there is much more work still 

to be done, while recognizing the extraordinary work that occurs in the VA every 

day, the time has come to create the VA System of the future. A system that has 

superior access and the highest standards for quality of care and the quality of caring. I have spent time with Secretary McDonald and his team and have seen his 

passion and vision for doing what it will take to make these changes. The Blue 

8 

Print for Excellence to improve VA is a well thought out and comprehensive plan. 

The Choice Plan and the ability to offer seamless care between VA and the DOD 

and care in the private sector are also critical and efforts I would fully support. It 

would be my intent, if confirmed, to ensure that these strategies and initiatives are 

implemented. 

The Undersecretary of VHA is a significant position with significant opportunities. 

The most important reason I seek this position is my duty to do whatever I can to 

provide the best healthcare possible to our Veterans. The VA also offers the potential to impact the training and education of countless future physicians, and to bring 

new research discovery and practice changes that will impact all Americans. We 

have the opportunity to end homelessness and prevent suffering and suicides for 

countless of brave Veterans. This is clearly the most exciting time in healthcare that 

I’ve experienced in my career. The innovations of today and tomorrow, new technology, and human creativity will allow us to dramatically change the way we deliver healthcare and improve our results. 

With the support of the Members of this Committee and others in Congress, the 

Veterans Service Organizations, the dedicated employees at the VA, and the American people, together we can make VA the finest healthcare system in the country. 

There is no more noble mission and it would be my distinct honor and privilege to 

be part of this effort. Our veterans deserve the very best, and with your support, 

I am confident we will succeed. 

Thank you and I look forward to your questions. 

9 

[The Committee questionnaire for Presidential nominees follows:] 


55nSQP2.eps
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[A letter from the Office of Government Ethics follows:] 


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[Letter from David J. Shulkin, M.D., to the Office of General 

Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs:] 


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Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Dr. Shulkin. 

I have a homework assignment for you. I want to ask one of the 

staff members to give you a business card that I just handed off. 


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I would like for you to take it home tonight—thank you, Senator 

Casey—and make a phone call to the person who is on that card. 

You know, I am fortuitous in that sometimes having good luck 

is better than being smart. In my life, that has always been the 

case. [Laughter.] 

This morning, I spoke to the National Academy of Anesthesiologists. This card is the Chief Anesthesiologist at the Johnson VA 

Hospital in Charleston, SC, where I happen to have been breaking 

ground for a new clinic in Savannah in that VISN 7. He made 

some comments to me about the vertical communication within the 

VA and difficulties that a lot of doctors were experiencing, something I had heard many times before, referring to the previous administration, the previous Secretary and his problems, but understanding that he is still at the VA. 

I think it would be a nice touch for you to call him, tell him you 

and I met today; and I met him today. Please hear him out on 

what he has got to say, because he was a very impressive doctor, 

physician, a very impressive individual. I think it would be helpful 

to you, as well as to make me look good. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I will do that, Senator. [Laughter.] 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you very much. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Let me ask you a question. You are overseeing a hospital with 658 beds in Morristown, NJ, yet you are 

going to take over an agency that has 1,600 locations. Are you prepared to take on something of that scope and size, and in what way 

are you going to embrace that challenge? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, it is a massive system, there is no question about it, and I cannot tell you that I have ever taken on a 

challenge like this. But, I do believe the principles of leadership are 

transferable and they are to be able to, from the top, set the vision, 

have goals, set accountability, and make sure that you are making 

progress on a regular basis and making sure that your workforce 

and those that you serve understand what you are trying to do and 

are on the same page with you. 

So, I would take my 25 years of experience and do everything 

that I can to make sure that we are all successful, because our veterans deserve better than the care that we are able to give right 

now. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Both the Ranking Member and I referred to 

the Denver situation in terms of the terrible cost overruns. Do you 

think the VA ought to be in the business of building buildings, or 

should they get out of it? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Well, Senator, I watched your hearing and I listened very carefully to what both you and the Ranking Member— 

I believe Senator Rounds, I think you were there, as well and others—and I believe that what happened there was something that 

really is a situation that could never be repeated, should never be 

allowed to be repeated. 

I understand some of the problems with the integrated design 

concept. I understand that the VA has asked for help in this from 

the Corps, and it has never—it should never be a problem asking 

for help when you are in over your head. I think that they have 

recognized that they need to have systems in place so that this 

69 

could never happen again, and that in complex projects that they 

are going to ask for help, because I think as many of you made 

clear in your statements, this type of situation requires the expertise of others to help manage this. So, I think that your comments 

and the comments that were heard are certainly going to be taken 

into account to make sure that a situation like this could never 

occur again. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Well, I agree with you, and if outcomes are 

the measure by which health care is judged and construction is 

judged, the outcome in terms of that hospital is horrible. If any patient had an outcome like that medically, they would probably die 

on the gurney getting into the hospital. So, it is going to be very 

important as a leader in VA medical health that you be outspoken 

in what you think VA’s key focus ought to be. I think it ought to 

be in saving lives, providing care and comfort to our veterans, and 

seeing to it those with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and 

traumatic brain injury (TBI) are getting the treatment they should 

get. Get the construction problems and the construction jobs in the 

hands of the Corps of Engineers with your input in terms of what 

you need. 

A physician knows better than anybody the way in which a design of the most efficient ward ought to be, depending on what it 

is for, whether it is cardiology, whatever it might be. But, they do 

not need to build it, as well. You need to get that information first 

and then have somebody contract and execute it. So, I hope you 

will be a leader in doing precisely that. 

Have you ever worked within the government before in any job? 

Dr. SHULKIN. No, sir, I have not. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Always been private sector? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Always been private sector. 

Chairman ISAKSON. If you continue to apply your private sector 

knowledge to the government job, you are probably going to do just 

fine. 

Ranking Member Blumenthal. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I want 

to thank you for your willingness to serve and thank your family, 

Dr. Bari, if I have that name right, and your daughter, Jennifer, 

who are highly accomplished in their own right, but their support 

for you, I think, will be important to your success and your success 

will be so important to our country, not your personal success, but 

your success in improving the quality and access and availability 

of health care to our veterans. 

I note that you spent your internship in West Haven. I assume 

that was about a year or—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [continuing]. Thereabouts, and it was some 

time ago, but I would like to invite you back and ask you to come 

back, assuming you are confirmed, which I believe you will be. So, 

perhaps one of your first visits can be to West Haven to see what 

is necessary to improve quality of health care there. I hope you will 

come. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, it will be on my initial list of visits. It will 

be a great honor to be able to go back and visit. It was my intention to stay at Yale. My wife dragged me to the University of PittsVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
70 

burgh because she did her residency there in dermatology, so I 

would love to come back. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. That is good to hear. 

Let me ask you more broadly, your dad was a captain and a psychiatrist—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [continuing]. And obviously dealt with 

issues of mental health care. How big a priority will that area of 

medical care be for you? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. The mental health of our veterans is paramount. The continued statistics of the number of suicides and people suffering, I think, is something that none of us can be satisfied 

with. So, I do believe that this has to be a priority and I think that 

there are several areas of mental health that are a priority: surveillance, so we know how big the problem is; identification of risk factors, particularly for suicide; and then the multiple interventions 

that are required in the treatment of mental health disorders. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Well, I am glad to hear that response, because I agree that it has to be one of the very top priorities, given 

the rate of 22 suicides per day. We passed the Clay Hunt Suicide 

Prevention for American Veterans Act, which I helped to lead along 

with Senator McCain, Senator Isakson, and others. My hope is that 

that bill will be a downpayment, a foundation that we can build 

upon, because the quality of mental health care right now is nowhere near what it should be. 

Let me ask you about that monstrosity in Colorado. I think there 

is no other word for the failure that it reflects. It is a monument 

to ineptitude in construction, and the proposal from the VA is that 

the billion-dollar cost overrun be paid out of a billion dollars in 

Choice programming, what is referred to as maintenance and 

minor construction costs, which would require sacrifices in quality 

of health care for other veterans elsewhere around the country, 

which to me is a non-starter and I hope that you agree. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Senator, I have certainly heard your concerns, 

in particular, to make sure that this does not affect important 

projects like primary care expansion at West Haven, but I know 

your concerns are much broader than that. 

I believe that people at VA are working hard to try to find a way 

to complete the Denver project, and they are working together, I 

think, with all of you in this room to be able to get that done. I 

think that there is no doubt that the concerns about making sure 

veterans get the right care has to be front and center on this, more 

important than anything else. So, my concerns are the ones that 

you have. I can tell you that if I am confirmed, that I will work 

with the Secretary and his team to make sure that any solution 

does not come at the expense of treatment of the veterans. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Well, stay tuned. More to be said about it. 

My time is about to expire, so let me just ask one last question, 

which is with respect to whistleblowers. I hope you will agree with 

me, also, that whistleblowers really are to be welcomed and, in 

fact, recognized for their courage when they step forward and they, 

in effect, speak truth to power, or more bluntly, tell us what is 

wrong and what has to be righted and that, certainly, retaliation 

ought to be absolutely abhorrent. 

71 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator, I absolutely agree with that, and if 

confirmed, that would be my position. I think the Secretary has 

taken a strong position on that and I certainly support that. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Following up on Senator Blumenthal’s statement, I know that the heads of State back in the VA are watching 

this hearing on television. I hope they are. I hope they got Senator 

Blumenthal’s message loud and clear. We need to know what their 

proposal is going to be in terms of what they are going to contribute to make up the differential so we can get that hospital finished. We are prepared to work with them, but only if they are prepared to put some skin in the game and some stuff on the table. 

I just wanted to throw that in since I knew they would probably 

be watching. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Rounds. 

HON. MIKE ROUNDS, U.S. SENATOR FROM SOUTH DAKOTA 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Shulkin, first of all, thank you for the comments that you 

made so far. I would concur with the Chairman and the Ranking 

Member with regards to the Choice program. I understand that 

that is part of the thought process, that in order to gain the cash 

necessary to pick up the billion-dollar overrun in Colorado, at the 

hospital there, that they are looking at other alternatives inside. I 

most certainly would be very hesitant to accept the proposal if it 

impacts the ability to provide care to any of our veterans across the 

rest of the State, including in Colorado. 

But, I am curious, because it is not just the urban areas, but it 

is the rural areas, as well, that need the additional attention. What 

I am going to ask is, basically, in your position as the Under Secretary of Health, will you continue to encourage veterans to use 

private care? How do you feel about the use of private care by veterans? What are your thoughts on that? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, I think if you put the central mission of 

caring for veterans square in the forefront, you come up with an 

answer that says that the care that is provided within the VA system is extraordinary in many areas. We are doing work in the VA 

system that cannot be replicated in the private sector. 

But, I think what we have learned is it is not yet a complete system. So, in order to give the veterans the care that they need, I 

believe you have to take the best of what is in VA, which is considerable, and supplement it with the best that is in the private sector 

that cannot be replicated in the VA; that is the way, together, you 

look at a new VA health care system. It is really a transformed system where the role becomes the coordination of care, because we 

cannot do it without the private sector right now. 

I really see that this is a different approach. This is a different 

time. I would really endorse a VA that really looks at focusing first 

on the veterans’ priorities. 

Senator ROUNDS. In Hot Springs, SD—you and I spoke earlier 

about this—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Mm-hmm. 

72 

Senator ROUNDS [continued]. Hot Springs is a case—it was one 

of the first hospitals ever developed for the VA in the United 

States, back in the time of the Civil War, as a matter of fact, for 

Civil War veterans. One of their thoughts is that they believe truly 

that they can become and compete as a Center of Excellence when 

it comes to treating PTSD. 

Would you give me your thoughts in terms of the concept of a 

Center of Excellence, specifically, just your thought as to whether 

or not Centers of Excellence work and whether or not you think 

that that is an appropriate direction that we should be looking at 

within the VA system. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Senator, I do believe in Centers of Excellence. 

Throughout my career, I have worked hard to help establish them 

within the private sector. I believe, then, that what a Center of Excellence can do is really serve as a resource across the country for 

VA. But, then, you have to disseminate those best practices. You 

do not have to replicate all the resources, but you have to disseminate the best practices, and that is part of what I think VA needs 

to do more of. 

I think it was Senator Tillis who said last week in the hearing, 

the solutions in VA already exist in the VA. We just need to get 

them out there and we need Centers of Excellence to be able to 

identify those practices and make them consistent across the 

country. 

Senator ROUNDS. I think you do have some very qualified individuals within the VA. I know that in Sioux Falls, SD, we have got 

a group of physicians there that my veterans tell me do a great job 

for them. When you talk to the doctors themselves, they say, look, 

if it comes time to make a change, they have, literally, 13 levels 

of bureaucracy to get through to get a change done. Are you prepared to tackle that bureaucracy? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, this, no doubt, is one of the challenges of 

a system this big. My belief and my philosophy about management 

is that while you do need to have consistency of best practices, you 

have to empower people at the local level if you are going to get 

the best from people. People do not want to be receiving memos all 

day long. They want to feel that they have the ability to influence 

patient care at the local level. 

So, that would be my philosophy. And trying to get through some 

of the bureaucracy, that really is the job of leadership to cut 

through that, which is something I would be committed to. 

Senator ROUNDS. I think when we spoke with Secretary McDonald and also Deputy Secretary Gibson, we mentioned that we understand that they walked into, literally, a very deep pond with a 

lot of gators in it. While I am not from the part of the country that 

has got them, I we have learned about them. They voluntarily went 

in, and you are doing the same thing. It is a pretty deep pond, 

which you are going to have to drain and then you are going to 

have to clean stuff out. 

One of those gators that is in there, I think, is this construction 

project, and a series of them. It is not just one, it is a whole series. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Mm-hmm. 

Senator ROUNDS. I really have a question as to whether or not 

they ought to be doing the construction, because I did not see 

73 

where they brought a heck of a lot of expertise to the projects that 

they are doing. If we can get that one out of the way, it means you 

can focus on some of the more direct care providing systems that 

are out there right now. I really hope that you would consider looking at in a very serious light the elimination of construction as a 

part of the responsibility of Veterans Affairs, just as the Chairman 

and the Ranking Member have suggested, as well, sir. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Senator, I agree with you. Part of the reason 

why I am so committed to this position is because I have spent 

time with Secretary McDonald and Deputy Secretary Gibson. 

These are people who are committed and doing everything they can 

to change the system. And, as you know, the construction project 

predated them. 

If I were confirmed, I would join with them to not only get us 

through this by working together with all of you, but to make sure 

that we are focused on the right things so that this would never 

happen again. Thank you. 

Senator ROUNDS. We want you to succeed. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Rounds. 

Senator Brown. 

HON. SHERROD BROWN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OHIO 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. Dr. Shulkin, thank you for being here, and Ms. 

Council, thank you for testifying and for your willingness to serve 

our country. 

Dr. Shulkin, a Reservists at Rickenbacker Air National Guard 

Base in Columbus flew and worked on C–123s in the decade after 

Vietnam. When we met last week, you said you knew of the Institute of Medicine study that reported, ‘‘with confidence’’ that those 

working on these 123s and C–123s had been exposed to Agent Orange residue toxins, but you were not at that point aware of how 

the VA, since you were not in the position yet, or are not in the 

position yet, and we expect you to be, but were not aware of how 

the VA was actually proceeding on the issue. 

Ranking Member Blumenthal and I, along with several colleagues, wrote to Secretary McDonald regarding the statutory authority that the Department has used in past cases to determine 

health and disability benefits. Our staffers were told these veterans 

would receive health benefits, yet when they go to treatment, they 

are told at VA facilities that they do not qualify. This discrepancy 

must be addressed. That must be one of your top priorities, if confirmed. We are awaiting a response from Secretary McDonald. We 

hope you will bring this to his attention immediately. Do you care 

to comment? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Senator, I do appreciate you bringing this to 

my attention when we met. As you know, I only have publiclyavailable information to read, but I have gone back and reviewed 

the Institute of Medicine report in detail that was released in January of this year. I agree with your interpretation of it. There is 

no question that the Reservists were potentially exposed to harmful 

agents and the VA is here to take care of the health problems of 

people that were injured serving our country. 

74 

I do know that the VA is very interested in resolving this. I am 

not in the position today to officially comment on it, as I am sure 

you know. But, I believe the Secretary is committed to getting back 

to you in short fashion, and if confirmed, I would work with the 

Secretary to be able to address this very expeditiously. 

Senator BROWN. Thank you. We will act legislatively if we need 

to. We should not have to, and we expect not to have to, so thank 

you for that. 

I wanted to follow up on the Ranking Member’s question, Senator Blumenthal’s question related to whistleblowers. Secretary 

McDonald, one of the first things in our first couple of conversations that we had together said he will hold those accountable for 

taking retaliatory action. I have not seen that happen yet. How has 

your—partly, you gave a similar answer on prior experience to the 

Chairman. How has your experience managing hospitals and medical staff prepared you to deal with those kind of systemic problems 

at VHA facilities? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Well, Senator, one of my passions throughout my 

career has been patient safety, and it is a principle in patient safety that if you are not having people on the front line feeling comfortable to report errors and near misses—we have learned this 

from the airline industry—that you are never going to get better 

as an organization. 

Part of the job of a leader is to set the culture. The culture has 

to be the one where people feel not only comfortable, but also responsible for raising issues that are hurting the organization, and 

in this case, hurting our ability to care for veterans. So, it is not 

only protecting whistleblowers, which I think is absolutely vital 

and key and I would be committed to, but it is creating a culture 

where people feel that they should and they must speak up when 

they see something wrong. That is something I have done all my 

career, I have supported all my career, and I would continue to do 

if I were confirmed. 

Senator BROWN. We had a significant—thank you for that. We 

had a number of problems when I first came to the Senate almost 

a decade ago in Dayton, one of the oldest VAs in the country. It 

was a lot about whistleblowers and we have to make sure, obviously, that they are protected. 

The last point I will make in my last minute, Mr. Chairman, I 

was pleased to see the VA move on the issue of 40 miles as the 

crow flies or driving 40 miles. Good step. Veterans, however, are 

being turned away if that VA sometimes does not have the particular specialized care that they need when it might be available 

somewhere else. I would ask, if you are confirmed, if you would 

work with the VHA to interpret the law so that veterans who are 

enrolled in the program are able to seek treatment at a medical facility that actually offers the necessary care, if you would commit 

to us to look at that law and work with us. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. I do recognize the concern of the veteran who has to—who has a facility within 40 miles, but they do 

not offer that type of specialized treatment, and I do think that, if 

confirmed, my goal would be to make sure that we find a way to 

get them services. That is going to probably mean a multitude of 

solutions. It is going to mean being able to get more specialty care 

75 

out into the CBOCs, the 800 or so Community-Based Outpatient 

Clinics, that currently today do not have those types of facilities, 

use of technology, and use of other ways to make sure that we are 

serving the veterans in that way. 

Being able to legislate, or being able to interpret the law in a different way than was legislated is something that is probably beyond my area of expertise to comment on today, but certainly something I would look at. 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, and Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Brown. 

For your benefit and the rest of the Members of the Committee 

and Senator Moran, who has been outspoken on this issue, we are 

working with VA staff now and we hope in a couple of weeks to 

have statutory language for the care you need being determined in 

such a way as to meet exactly what you said and exactly what Senator Moran has been looking for. So, the VA staff is working closely 

with our staff to do so and we look forward to that happening. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I want to also thank both Senator Brown 

and Senator Moran for raising this issue as strongly as they have 

done. 

If I may just comment on the C–123 issue, if I may be so bold. 

Nothing will be a test of your effectiveness in this job than to have 

that policy changed as quickly as possible, which I am very, very 

glad that you agree with us, that we do not need to go through the 

legislative process, but it can be done by the VA. I hope that you 

will bring that message back to the Secretary and maybe you will 

effectuate change. Thank you. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I understand. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Tillis. 

HON. THOM TILLIS, U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA 

Senator TILLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Dr. Shulkin, thank you for being here. I had a great meeting 

with you and enjoyed the discussion we had. Congratulations to 

you and to your family on the honor of being nominated. I look forward to voting in favor of your confirmation. 

Now, I am kind of new to this role, so I do not really know how 

the nominations process goes or how much due diligence you are 

allowed to complete before you decide whether or not you want to 

jump into the fire or the frying pan, but can you give me some 

sense of the amount of work that you did to kind of get—to understand what you are getting into, first, just in terms of due 

diligence. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, absolutely. This process, surprisingly, started 

toward the end of the summer of 2014. Since that time, I have 

worked to listen carefully, obviously, to only publicly-available information, and many, many people have come forward to share 

their concerns, but overwhelmingly, their interest in working together and finding ways to make this work. I mean, this is an area 

that I am just amazed, whether it is corporations, individuals, organizations, my individual meetings with all of you, overwhelmingly suggests to me that everybody wants to see the problems in 

the VA fixed. 

76 

Well, I have done a lot of reading. I have done a lot of listening. 

I have read the public briefings as much as I possibly could to be 

able to get up to speed. I feel like—nothing like once you get into 

a job, I understand that, but I feel pretty well prepared, and I 

heard your comments last week about—in the GAO hearing about 

the major concerns that you and other Members of this Committee 

have about what has been going on in VA. 

Senator TILLIS. Now, I am glad to hear that, and I am hoping 

that I have time to ask Ms. Council similar questions. I have another commitment, but I look forward to supporting her confirmation if I am not able to. 

But, with all that background, what does your first 90 days look 

like? What are your priorities going to be? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Well, I think the priority of everyone who leads a 

health care organization is to provide safe and effective care, to 

make sure that the care is serving its customer, in this case, the 

veterans, and then planning for the future. So, while—those are 

the overarching aims. 

The real specifics are fix the access problem. No question about 

it, that has to be fixed. We cannot continue not to allow—— 

Senator TILLIS. Any ideas on how you are going to do that? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Oh, absolutely. This is what I have been doing 

throughout my career. This is operations. This is being able to expand capacity, being able to use weekend and evening hours, being 

able to look at the issues. We have 11 percent no-shows in the VA, 

and I know how to deal with those issues. So, I think we can continue to make progress. Progress is being made, but we can continue to accelerate that. 

Second, as Senator Blumenthal said, the mental health issues 

are an absolute key priority. 

Third, as Senator Rounds was saying, to really help put a model 

in place, a new operating model to transform the VA from one that 

takes the best of the private sector and the best of what we do, 

which is extraordinary, in the VA system. 

Last and most important, really to work to restore the trust and 

confidence of not only the veterans—that is the most important— 

but also the people who work in VA, because I want the VA to be 

a place that people want to come to work and to serve the country. 

Senator TILLIS. In your past experience, which is extensive, can 

you think of any major transformation or operational initiative that 

you consider to be successful there that has application here within 

the VA? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. I think throughout my career, I have 

taken on challenges that have shown, as I said, leadership commitments that are transferable to the situation. I think the most significant was when I went to Beth Israel in New York to be their 

CEO. This was an organization that was essentially deteriorating 

in its metrics, financially, quality-wise, and service-wise. Working 

together with the employees, the unions, the patients themselves, 

and the community, we were able to get that organization back on 

track with all those balanced measures of performance. So, I think 

it is some of those skills and learning from my failures—I certainly 

have had failures in the past—that will allow me to be able to help 

the organization. 

77 

Senator TILLIS. Dr. Shulkin, it sounds like you at least heard 

some of the comments that I made last week, and I hope that I can 

count on you to be one of the people that I will reach out to, along 

with Ms. Council and others, who are committed to truly understanding what it means to transform an organization, to break 

down barriers, to remove old practices, put in new best practices 

that exist. I hope I have your commitment to have your door open 

so that I can help you become an advocate on this Committee to 

really produce results. 

We know what needs to be done; we have to do it. It requires 

us to support you, but it requires you all to think differently and 

to get a lot of people in that organization who may think they are 

going to transcend us, to have another committee to talk to years 

from now, to understand now is the time to change. 

Dr. SHULKIN. You have my commitment on that, Senator. 

Senator TILLIS. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Tester. 

HON. JON TESTER, U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA 

Senator TESTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Shulkin, your resume is impressive. As I looked through it, 

I was trying to figure out what connection got you here. How did 

you get this appointment? Could you enlighten me on that? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. Five-and-one-half years ago, when I 

left my position as CEO of Beth Israel, you were looking for a new 

Under Secretary and I put my name in the hat then. I got pretty 

far down the process. At that point I really wanted to give back 

and to serve our veterans, serve the country. That has been in my 

fabric for a long time. But, I did not get the nomination; I became 

the CEO at Morristown. 

Senator TESTER. Got you. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Then, I watched over the past year, as you did, as 

this crisis unfolded, and it was very, very hard for me to sit on the 

sidelines. I said at that time, I really need to be able to do everything I can if I contribute. 

Senator TESTER. Yes. Well, I appreciate your willingness to 

serve. 

Senator Tillis already asked the first question on what is on top 

of your agenda. You answered it well. 

You have to have a relationship with stakeholders, particularly 

VSOs and maybe, unfortunately or fortunately, either way, Congress. How will you approach that? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Well—— 

Senator TESTER. On both of those. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Yes, absolutely. You know, let me take Congress first. In my meetings with you, Senator, and my meetings 

with many of the people around this dias, I have to tell you, I came 

away feeling extremely optimistic, because each and every one of 

you really, I believe, wants to see a strong working relationship to 

make this system work better for its veterans, which was very encouraging to me. 

Senator TESTER. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I would commit, as several of you have already 

asked, to having an open relationship and really looking to have 

78 

this relationship work together to make us serve the veterans 

better. 

Senator TESTER. OK. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Regarding the VSOs, I consider them a major gift. 

To have people that are that concerned and dedicated and willing 

to speak up and willing to meet, that is something that I am going 

to take every advantage of if I am confirmed. 

Senator TESTER. So, your door will be open to them if they want 

to talk to you? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Absolutely. 

Senator TESTER. OK. You have been in the private sector, as 

president of a major medical center. What was your impression of 

the VA’s relationship with local providers, maybe the last provider 

you worked for? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Yes. I still am the CEO of—— 

Senator TESTER. Oh, sorry. 

Dr. SHULKIN. No, that is OK—— 

Senator TESTER. What is the VA’s relationship—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Right. Right. Right. We have several VAs near us. 

We have the West Orange VA and the Lyons VA. We are there. We 

work with them when they cannot provide the services. We make 

sure that we have good continuity of care. 

Senator TESTER. Is communication good? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Communication is good, but I think that in a new 

VA, I think that we can do better than we have. 

Senator TESTER. How about reimbursement for services? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Slow. Adequate, but slow. 

Senator TESTER. Do you think you can speed that up? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Uh—— 

Senator TESTER. Do you think it is important to speed up? 

Dr. SHULKIN. I think it is important that VA be seen as a good 

partner to the private sector, and that means good reimbursement 

and adequate reimbursement. 

Senator TESTER. All right. One of the things that we have done 

here, right, wrong, or indifferent—we did it during the banking 

meltdown, we did it during the VA meltdown—is we went after 

staff. We talked about folks that need not be working at the VA 

anymore when, in fact, the folks who are incompetent, I think, are 

a small minority. I think this has had some impact on recruitment, 

and I think it has had some impact on retention, quite frankly, of 

the good people, the people we want to keep. Is there anything that 

you would do that would help with recruitment and retention—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator TESTER [continuing]. Other than what they are doing 

already? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. I do think we need to take some practices from 

the private sector and make sure that we are doing everything that 

we can to do recruitment. 

Senator TESTER. What would those be? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Well, I think that there are several. First of all, as 

you said, you have to have an environment that people want to 

come to work to. 

Senator TESTER. Mm-hmm. 

79 

Dr. SHULKIN. VA is blessed by training 70 percent of all doctors, 

so they come through our doors. If they see an environment is one 

that puts patients first and cares about the people who work there, 

they are going to want to stay there. So, I think we have to fix our 

own internal house first. 

But, I think the best practices from the private sector regarding 

loan repayment—I know the Choice Act has essentially helped to 

address some of that. 

Senator TESTER. Yes. 

Dr. SHULKIN. We have to have competitive pay. I know that we 

are working on that. We have to be out there working with private 

outsourcing techniques. We have to have recruitment bonuses. We 

have to do the things that are going to make us competitive to get 

the very best people to want to work at the VA. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Last question. We have got a shortage of 

medical professionals all over this country, particularly in areas of 

mental health. What can you do, more than the VA is already 

doing, to increase medical residencies, internships, I would say 

from a rural perspective, somebody else might say from an urban 

perspective. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Well, two things. One is you have authorized 

us to have additional Graduate Medical Education spots. I think 

we have to be very strategic about where we are going to use those 

and how we are going to use them to make sure we are training 

professionals in the areas that we need and the specialties we 

need. 

But, second, I think our academic affiliations are absolutely critical, and I think working in areas like working with the University 

of Washington or working with the Billings Clinic or working with 

other academic centers, that is really something that has worked 

well for the VA and we have to continue to work to make that even 

stronger. 

Senator TESTER. One more, which you can answer really quickly. 

Did you pay your taxes? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you. [Laughter.] 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you very much for doing that. 

Senator Sullivan. 

HON. DAN SULLIVAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Dr. Shulkin, 

thank you for being willing to go through the confirmation process, 

willing to serve. I want to thank your family, as well. I know it is 

not always an easy process. 

Let me get to a very basic question. You obviously have a very 

impressive resume. The description of the job that you, if you are 

confirmed, would undertake is the Under Secretary is the highest 

official directly responsible for the largest agency within the Department of the Veterans Health Administration (VHA). You know, 

a lot of the members of the VA, particularly over the last couple 

years, have come here, sat before this Committee, been hammered, 

bad press, things like that. Why do you want this job? 

Dr. SHULKIN. I want this job because I believe that it is my duty 

to serve those who have served our country, and second, because 

80 

I believe I can help. There would be no other reason why I would 

want to be able to do this than to really give back and to make a 

difference. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Good. I would like to ask a more specific question. So, I come from Alaska. We have the highest number of veterans per capita of any State in the Union. We are very proud of 

that. A lot of them are actually doctors who served in the Air 

Force, Army, stayed in Alaska because they see what a beautiful 

place it is, wonderful place. 

By the way, if you are confirmed, I would welcome a commitment 

from you to get up to Alaska soon and see what is going on up 

there. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I have never been. I would absolutely commit to 

coming and seeing Alaska. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Good. Great. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Connecticut is closer. 

Dr. SHULKIN. It is. [Laughter.] 

Senator ROUNDS. South Dakota is on the way. [Laughter.] 

Senator SULLIVAN. None are as big, though. [Laughter.] 

One of the things that—I am a lawyer and I, at one point in my 

career, actually tried to be a doctor, but found out I was not smart 

enough. But, our doctors—I have heard this from a number of doctors—they see the problems in the VA. Some of them are veterans. 

A lot of them are veterans, as I mentioned. They want to help. If 

you are an attorney, you want to help. As a matter of fact, most 

attorneys have pro bono legal requirements. They are supposed to 

go do public service, go help. If you are a doctor and you want to 

help the VA, my understanding from talking to doctors is the VA 

does not want your help. You cannot even volunteer to help the VA 

if you are a world class surgeon. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Hmm. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Do you think that is a problem? Do you think 

that is a culture of accepting the kind of people who want to help 

with regard to the system? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Umm, Senator, I was not aware of that—— 

Senator SULLIVAN. Well, I might be wrong, but I have heard that 

from a number of folks. I have talked to the Secretary about it. 

Dr. SHULKIN. When I mentioned that during this process I have 

talked to people, I cannot tell you the amount of people who have 

said exactly that; doctors, my dad being one of them, who said, ‘‘I 

would like to come and help as a psychiatrist.’’ I did not know that 

that was a problem, and if confirmed, I am going to try to find out 

the reason why, because, frankly, we need the help. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Right. 

Dr. SHULKIN. We have to have standards for—we cannot let everybody come in. They have to be competent and they have to be 

qualified to help. But, if they are competent and qualified and they 

want to help this country and help the veterans, I want to find out 

why. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Good. I would like your commitment on looking at that issue. We should be addressing that issue. That, to me, 

seems like a cultural issue, not an issue that makes a lot of sense. 

If we have a lot of doctors in this country, which we do, who want 

to help, who want to give free time to help our veterans, we should 

81 

not make that hard on them. We should make it easy on them. So, 

if you can commit to that, I think that is important. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I will commit to look into that, Senator. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Mr. Chairman, I am looking at my clock here. 

I am not sure which way it is going. It seems to be kind of going 

backwards, so I am trying to figure out how much time I have left. 

Chairman ISAKSON. It is going back and forth. I cannot figure it 

out, either. [Laughter.] 

Senator SULLIVAN. OK. I will keep talking until I am told to be 

quiet. 

Chairman ISAKSON. I think you have got 2 minutes. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You know, Chairman Isakson and Ranking Member Blumenthal 

have been very focused, which we all have been, on the issue of suicide, and already had the President signing the Clay Hunt Suicide 

Prevention Act. But, as Senator Blumenthal mentioned, that is a 

downpayment, right. We have got a lot more work to do than just 

that Act. 

As you know, on average, 22 veterans per day commit suicide. 

That will be, on average, two that will have happened during the 

course of this hearing. Yet, I think, there is some good news. The 

American Psychiatric Association recently had a report that talked 

about the veterans who actually get into the VHA for these kind 

of issues, who see somebody, have a much, much lower rate of suicide than those who do not. 

How can we further look at fixing that, particularly when we 

know that if our veterans see the right people in the system, it is 

going to help right there? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Right. Right. I think you are correct. One of the 

things that is going well within VA are the effective tools like our 

Crisis Intervention Centers, like our Counseling Centers, our Adjustment Centers that are out there. But, if we are not connecting 

with people, if we are not getting them into VA, then that is what 

I think our highest-risk veterans are, particularly for mental 

health disorders. 

I think that as we have talked about today, we have to focus on 

getting the right number of individuals who are mental health professionals into the system, making sure that we identify those that 

are at highest risk, and we are not doing that early enough, and 

making sure that our treatments are effective. And, I think, one of 

the things about VA is using our research in this area and then 

putting it into clinical action. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you. Just one more final quick question. I know my time is out. You have run a lot of major health 

organizations. Give me a sense of how you have in the past and 

how you can in the future help change the culture of an organization, particularly an organization this large, which, to be honest, 

needs some cultural changes, which are not always easy to implement. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Yes. Culture, no doubt, is hard to change, but 

I think we all know in the VA system that is one of the reasons 

why we got into the trouble we did. So, I think the way that you 

go about changing culture is making sure that you, as a leader: articulate your priorities; you back up your actions by essentially 

82 

walking the walk on there; you regularly communicate and make 

sure that you are in contact; and that you are out there in the field 

and you are listening, because no one wants to be spoken to. People 

want to be listened to. Working with our VSOs, working with our 

unions, working with our employees, our veterans groups, working 

with all of you, I think that is the way that you stay consistent on 

point to be able to change culture. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Great. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Manchin. 

HON. JOE MANCHIN III, U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 

thank you, Dr. Shulkin and your family, for having the desire to 

serve your country, and I appreciate that very much. 

I am sure you are aware that prescription drug abuse is a crisis 

in America. In the State of West Virginia, it is the number 1 killer 

we have. It is not what is being dealt illegally on the street; it is 

what is coming out of the medicine cabinet. So, this is a very important issue for me. 

I hear from veterans every day, especially those with PTSD,— 

which we have so many being diagnosed—as well as Traumatic 

Brain Injuries, chronic pain, and mental health issues. They are 

often given one prescription after another, which is having a devastating effect on them and their families. If you look at the highest unemployment rate in our veterans, it is because, I think, a lot 

of this addiction. I think we are to blame, not intentionally, but it 

is basically the culture we live in. 

I am finding that the VA does not always offer an alternative to 

drugs. I mean, anymore, you can go to a dentist and they will give 

you oxycontin. It is just ridiculous. 

In West Virginia, according to the information provided by the 

VA, at the Beckley VA medical center there are zero alternative 

treatments available. At the Clarksburg hospital there is only one. 

So, I guess my question would be, sir, are you looking at other 

effective treatment plans? Because I would think that for us to attack culturally the prescription drug abuse that this country is experiencing right now and us being able to provide a clean generation of young adults, if we look to VA, if we look to Medicaid and 

Medicare, those three are about the largest in the world as far as 

health care delivery. If we change the culture of what we prescribe 

and how we prescribe it, I think we can make a tremendous change 

in the whole concept of the problem. Are you looking at that? Are 

you familiar with that? Or, would you look at something about alternative prescriptions—basically, not drugs—alternative areas of 

handling PTSD, some of the effects we have, and chronic pain? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. I recognize that this is a very important problem, and as you mentioned, this is not just a problem 

within VA. This is a problem in all of health care right now. 

Senator MANCHIN. Sure. 

Dr. SHULKIN. In fact, the percentage of patients on narcotics in 

VA is actually lower than in the private sector. The doses are higher, but actually, the percent is lower. 

83 

But, I do think that you have identified a key area. We have to 

be looking at alternatives and we have to make sure that those 

practices, those best practices are disseminated throughout VA 

with mandatory training, and if you have the ability to prescribe 

those drugs, you have to go through programs and academic detailing that I know VA has begun to start rolling out throughout the 

organization. Then, effective surveillance so we can detect when 

there are problems earlier, which is something that we always 

have not done in the past. 

Senator MANCHIN. On that, you testified that you were troubled 

hearing about the many problems our veterans were experiencing. 

I have heard that many times. Like you, I am also troubled by 

these problems. Right now, I am carefully watching how the VA 

deals with a problem that we are having in Beckley, in the Beckley, West Virginia VA medical center. 

A couple of weeks ago, the Office of Special Counsel released a 

report that substantiated allegations of switching antipsychotic 

drugs based solely on cost. I am sure you have been brought up to 

speed on this. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator MANCHIN. Even the providers would provide drugs they 

knew were effective and the patients, our veterans, were not getting it because someone made, at the executive level, a decision 

that that is too costly and we will not support it. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Right. 

Senator MANCHIN. What steps would you take and could you 

take, and how quickly can you do that to retrofit this problem? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Right. Well, I am sure you know, being a nominee 

and not confirmed, I do not have all the details, but I did hear this 

talked about in one of the recent hearings. I know that there is an 

ongoing investigation. I know that that practice, if it is found to be 

confirmed as the facts as we understand them today, is not an acceptable practice. Steps need to be taken, both disciplinary—— 

Senator MANCHIN. Doctor, the way I am understanding where it 

is coming from, is coming from the executive, administrative 

branch. They are saying, basically, because of our cost constraints, 

no matter what the doctor may prescribe, we are not offering those 

because they are much more expensive. Instead, we will offer these. 

They have been proven in many cases, but the doctors have said 

that has not worked and they are being overridden by administrative decisions—— 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. 

Senator MANCHIN [continuing]. In the VA, which would not be allowed in the private sector. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Yes. Well, you know, Senator, prescribing 

drugs that are not effective is not good medicine, and if confirmed, 

my only support is going to be for practices that support good medicine. So, if those are practices that are ongoing, I would not be supporting those practices. It is important that people get the right 

medications. 

Senator MANCHIN. Well, Doctor, I think you are going to enjoy 

bipartisan support, which is not that readily available here. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. 

84 

Senator MANCHIN. Because of the quality of your past practices 

and, basically, your professional standing and also, I think, all that 

you have accomplished in your life, it is going to be a breath of 

fresh air. The drug problem is a severe problem in our culture and 

with veterans, too. We need to help defeat that. I thank you very 

much, sir. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Moran. 

HON. JERRY MORAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS 

Senator MORAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much, and to the 

Ranking Member, Mr. Blumenthal. My understanding is before I 

came in, you indicated opposition to the issue of transferring 

money from the Choice Act to the cost overruns at the Denver VA 

and I would like to associate myself with your remarks. 

Dr. Shulkin, thank you very much for your interest in serving in 

this capacity. Thank you for caring about veterans in a way that 

lends itself to your willingness to become a significant part of the 

VA’s effort to meet their needs. 

Let me ask, because as I was walking in, you were answering a 

question from the Senator from Ohio, Senator Brown; you were 

talking about the 40-mile issue, which is one that this Committee 

spends a lot of time and attention on. You were talking about finding other ways to meet those veterans’ needs, which I am not opposed to, but what I want assurance on is that that is not the 

theme of solving this 40-mile—there is still a reason to allow veterans who live more than 40 miles, some distance from a VA facility, to access community care, and part of what I heard you say in 

response to Senator Brown was that we are going to be finding 

other ways to meet those veterans’ needs. You talked about telemedicine, specialized services, extending weekends and longer 

days. 

Again, I am not opposed to that, but I would like to hear you tell 

me that that, in and of itself, is not the complete solution to the 

problem, particularly in a State like Kansas. The distance between—I represented a Congressional district before being elected 

to the U.S. Senate. The Congressional district is larger than the 

State of Illinois. There is no VA hospital in that district. So, distance matters. What I would like to hear you say is to confirm that 

you understand there still is a role despite all these other things 

the VA might do for allowing veterans to access health care in their 

home communities because of distance or because of timeliness. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. Senator, I think if you put the health needs 

of the veteran as the primary goal, that is going to drive you to 

finding the solutions. I do think, again, watching this from the outside where I sit today, I think the VA took the right steps in making the adjustments from the 40-mile change from as the crow flies 

to how you drive. 

I know the people who work in VA want to see veterans get the 

right care and get it in their communities and I am committed to 

doing that. I do know that if we make changes that the Office of 

Management and Budget have estimated huge, tens of billions of 

dollars changes. My role, if I am confirmed, would be to put the 

veterans’ health care front and center, but to do it in a way that 

85 

evaluates all the options to use this country’s resources to the very 

best way possible and that is the commitment that I would do if 

I were confirmed. 

Senator MORAN. Well, certainly, we want to do whatever we do 

in a cost-effective, cost-appropriate way. We are still looking at— 

we have been asking for cost estimates of changing the 40-mile rule 

probably before you were nominated, and certainly before you were 

being considered, and we are still looking for details on how the VA 

calculates what it would cost to, in my view, appropriately implement that provision about a facility within 40 miles, even though 

the facility does not provide the service the veteran needs. We will 

continue to seek that information from the Department. 

But, what I want to hear from you is that you understand that 

there are veterans, when you are—if you are confirmed and your 

goal is to put the veteran first, you do recognize there are veterans 

that would benefit from the Choice Act and having care at home, 

in their home community, if that is what they choose. 

Dr. SHULKIN. That is my commitment and I think you have articulated it right. It would be my goal, if I am confirmed, to understand this, along with you, in a way that would allow us to evaluate those best options. 

Senator MORAN. Part of the—I mean, there is skepticism, for me, 

at least, about the VA’s commitment to Choice, hometown services, 

and one of those things is the suggestion that we use part of the 

money from the Choice Act to pay for the cost overruns in Denver. 

Now, my understanding is the suggestion from the VA to do that 

was on the—we appropriated $15 billion, $5 billion of that to increase the number of professionals at the VA to provide services, 

$10 billion to pay for the Choice Act at home, and my understanding that the Aurora, CO, hospital is the part that would come 

from the $5 billion that is for providing hiring medical care. 

What I would remind you in this circumstance is that we have 

waited for 4 years for a physician to be recruited to an outpatient 

clinic in Kansas, the Liberal CBOC. So, it is troublesome when we 

discover that $5 billion is coming the VA’s way, but we are still 4 

years away from having a physician at a CBOC in Kansas. We are 

still awaiting an emergency room at the Topeka Veterans Hospital, 

the Cotton-O’Neil Hospital, which closed about 2 years ago for lack 

of personnel. So, the struggle that I always have is I want to make 

certain the commitment is to fulfilling the needs of the veterans, 

particularly with $5 billion that is designed to hire more people at 

the VA. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, I absolutely hear and understand the concern. Having facilities or buildings without doctors and appropriate 

staff does not do anybody any good. The Choice Act was legislated 

with certain purposes in mind. I think that VA is committed to trying to find a way to open up, to finish the Denver debacle. But, to 

leave it half-built, I do not think serves anybody well, either. 

I think that right now, people are putting solutions on the table. 

I think the overriding way that you make decisions is by saying 

that the care for the veterans has to be front and center and we 

cannot sacrifice that, but we are going to have to find a way to figure out where we can find the resources to finish the VA hospital 

in Denver. 

86 

Senator MORAN. Dr. Shulkin, my time has expired and I look forward to finding solutions to those problems by working with you. 

Thank you. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Hirono. 

HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO, U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is good to see you 

again, Doctor. 

There is an understanding that our women veterans have particular kinds of needs, and I would like to have your commitment, 

should you be confirmed, that you will ensure that women veterans 

have better access to the full range of gender-specific services from 

the VA. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. Nine percent of our veterans are 

women and it is an area that I think VA has been catching up on, 

which I think they have had some very strong efforts. They have 

trained over 2,000 providers now in women’s health care issues. My 

commitment would be to continue to support and accelerate those 

efforts. 

Senator HIRONO. The support for women veterans is a particular 

interest of this Committee, as the Chairman did have a hearing 

specifically focused on the needs of women veterans. 

This is a vast system that you will be in charge of, and it is probably bigger than any other arena that you have worked on. I realize that your commitment to make a difference is clear, but I am 

wondering whether you bring or you have a particular trait or an 

ability that you bring to this huge system that will enable you to 

succeed. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Senator, I would say that single trait is that I do 

not give up. You know, I am absolutely committed that we have to 

fix this, we have to make a difference. I think the trait that helps 

me is that I believe in empowering people, creating a strong leadership team that shares the goals and the mission that the VA has 

which is a noble mission. We are going to make a difference. 

Senator HIRONO. Since you mentioned the goals of the VA, one 

of the key issues highlighted by the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) High-Risk Report and the GAO’s testimony is the ambiguous policies set at the national level. It is one of the reasons 

that we heard that there are different clinics and hospitals, VA 

hospitals, that were doing things very differently where we could 

not even compare apples with apples. 

So, do you know if there is anyone at the VA right now who is 

tasked with creating or clarifying the policy to ensure that the best 

practices are followed and that we are able to ensure that the care 

across the board—we understand that there are certain localities 

that may have, you know, they would want flexibility—but do you 

know if there is anyone at the VA who is already doing this? 

Should you be confirmed, would this be a responsibility that you 

would want to see through? 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes. I do believe the Chairman actually asked this 

question, and at that hearing somebody was identified. Unfortunately, I do not know the individual, but I do believe there is. If 

I was confirmed, I would certainly want to get together with her 

87 

and make sure that there is a clear sense about accountability for 

not only addressing the ambiguous policies and procedures, but the 

other areas that the GAO report defined. 

I think, Senator, the nice thing about what the GAO has done 

for VA is it is now an open book test. It is pretty clear. There are 

100 recommendations. 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. 

Dr. SHULKIN. We have got to get them done. There has to be accountability. That should be done quickly, and that would be something, if I was confirmed, I would be committed to seeing through. 

Senator HIRONO. Good. 

I have a question for LaVerne Council. I believe she is here. Ms. 

Council, I am working on a proposal to automate survivors’ benefits 

that would provide VA authority to initiate and pay veterans’ survivor compensation claims without receipt of a formal application 

whenever sufficient evidence is of record to begin processing such 

claims. We have heard from claimants that there is delay, et 

cetera. This change is essential to automating payments of certain 

survivor benefits. Do you have any thoughts on the technology necessary to support such an automated system and whether a system 

could be implemented for all VA benefits? 

Chairman ISAKSON. Ms. Council is going to testify in just a 

minute. She is not yet under oath. 

Senator HIRONO. Oh, I am sorry. 

Chairman ISAKSON. No, that is quite all right. Are you going to 

be able to stay a minute? 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Then I will defer to you for the first question, OK. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That will give you time to think about it, Ms. 

Council. [Laughter.] 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. Well, one last question. We know that— 

you mentioned, Doctor, that getting the veterans into the system 

is really important, and we have heard that it is not that easy to 

identify who the veterans are. A lot of them are not in the system, 

and there is a thought about issuing identification cards, perhaps 

before they depart from active duty. Is this something that you 

think has merit and would you work with the Department of Defense in figuring out how best to make sure that the people who 

are exiting the active service, whether they can be deemed to have 

the full panoply of veterans’ benefits, that at least they will have 

a card of some sort that they can bring to the VA so that you at 

least have that verified, that they actually were in the military. 

Dr. SHULKIN. Yes, Senator. This seems like a solvable problem. 

You know who is serving in our military and you know that you 

want to connect them, and right now, we have a gap in between. 

So, if confirmed, I would be committed to finding a best mechanism 

to connect them, and looking into the identification card issue 

makes sense to me. I would certainly commit to looking into that 

and working with DOD to fix this. 

Senator HIRONO. I would certainly like to follow up with you on 

that. 

Dr. SHULKIN. OK. 

88 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Hirono. 

Dr. Shulkin, I want to thank you for your time and comprehensive answers. As you leave and Ms. Council comes forward, I want 

to remind you of a quote I wrote down that you mentioned about 

35 minutes ago. You said, ‘‘My focus is first on the veterans’ priorities.’’ That is exactly what we want you to do, and the veterans’ 

priorities are timely appointments, good quality outcomes, and a 

VA health care system that is responsive. 

The Veterans Choice Act was what we passed as a Congress 

when the Veterans Administration had failed in appointment 

times, consults, and results. We hope you will be just as committed 

as you indicated in your statement to making those things work in 

Veterans Choice. 

Dr. SHULKIN. I will. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you for your testimony. 

Ms. Council, please come forward. We will take a quick break so 

our Clerk can put a name tag up there. [Pause.] 

If you will raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give before the Senate 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs will be the truth, the whole truth, 

and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Ms. COUNCIL. I do. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Please be seated. 

You have demonstrated great patience for an Information Technology person in going second. We are delighted to have you and 

I will recognize you for your opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF LAVERNE H. COUNCIL, NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS FOR INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS 

AFFAIRS 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you very much. Chairman Isakson, Ranking 

Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Committee 

on Veterans’ Affairs, and veterans here and around the country, 

thank you for the privilege to appear before you today. I am honored to be nominated for the position of Assistant Secretary for the 

Office of Information and Technology at the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

I would like to take a moment just to recognize my best friend 

and husband of over 25 years, Bennie. Bennie and I are blessed 

with one lovable and joyful son, Troy, and one surviving parent, my 

mother-in-law, Corrie. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Now, is Troy here? 

Ms. COUNCIL. No. Troy could not make it. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Welcome. We are glad to have you, Bennie, 

and thank you for your support of your wife. 

Ms. COUNCIL. I truly appreciate the confidence of President 

Obama and Secretary McDonald in nominating me for this position. I am fully committed to bringing my experience as a global 

executive in the development and execution of high-tech and health 

care technologies to the VA. 

This role is an incredible opportunity for me, given my family’s 

history of service to this country. You see, my father was a Navy 

89 

veteran. My stepdad serves—retired from the Army after 20 years 

of service. My father-in-law served in the Air Force. Last year, my 

nephew retired from the Navy after over 20 years of service. I represent a family that believes in this country and is willing to step 

forward when needed. 

Although I have not personally served in the Armed Services, I 

was raised and influenced by many in my family who willingly 

served the country to protect the privileges we benefit from today. 

I have learned a lot from veterans, from how to make the perfect 

bed to how to hold my head up and be proud of who I am. Now, 

it is my time to serve them. 

Over the last few weeks, I have had the opportunity to meet with 

many of you and have learned a lot. I have a better understanding 

of your concerns and priorities for the VA. You are looking for a 

secure, high service, accountable, and responsive organization. If 

confirmed, I plan to bring all of my experience and leadership to 

the IT team and quickly work with them to develop and implement 

a road map that will enable Secretary McDonald’s vision to provide 

excellent customer service to veterans. 

I believe that good technology requires solid engagement with 

people and focused processes that are developed to meet the veterans’ needs. My focus will be to ensure that the team is fully engaged in working on the problems within IT and on implementing 

solutions to create effective interfaces to our veterans’ and user 

communities. 

Great technology requires solid engagement with people and 

sound business processes. When you have these two attributes, not 

only do you get a system to be proud of, you get a system that 

makes everyone proud because it is seamless and invisible. It is not 

the topic, but the enabler. Great systems provide insights and free 

up the clinician or benefits processor to provide the answers 

needed. 

During my career, I have had the responsibility for leading some 

of the largest global technology groups in the world. I brought solid 

leadership to the forefront by collaborating with the business leaders to meet the goals and expectations of the user, but most importantly, the customer. We developed high quality, secure solutions 

and processes for our enterprise. 

This required three core practices within IT: the first being 

transparent governance; the second being accountable risk management; and the third being team-enabled innovation. When these 

three capabilities are in place, IT works best. 

If confirmed, I plan to bring these core capabilities to the VA and 

create a fiscally responsible organization led by employees that 

have the ability to quickly drive to the expected results. 

We are best when the customer, in this case the veteran, is the 

focus of the solution. The ability to put the core recipient first has 

always been my driver. Good technology is secure and steps up the 

big challenges, not with complexity, but with simplicity that can 

only lead to excellence. It requires courage and curiosity and a willingness to fail fast and move forward. It also requires a ‘‘can do’’ 

spirit and a passion for success. 

If confirmed, I will bring this insight and my passion to benefit 

the VA and our veterans everywhere. 

90 

Thank you, Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, 

and Members of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs for your time 

today. I look forward to answering your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Council follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MS. LAVERNE H. COUNCIL, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT

SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, Distinguished Members of the 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, and veterans here and around the country—Thank 

you for the privilege to appear before you today. I am honored and humbled to be 

nominated for the position of Assistant Secretary for the Office of Information and 

Technology at the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

I would like to take a moment to recognize my husband of over 25 years, Bennie. 

Bennie and I are blessed with one lovable and joyful son, Troy, and one surviving 

parent, my mother-in-law, Corrie. 

I truly appreciate the confidence of President Obama and Secretary McDonald in 

nominating me for this position, and I am fully committed to bringing my proven 

experience as a Global Senior Executive in the development and execution of 

healthcare and Hi-tech information technology strategies to the VA. 

This role is an incredible opportunity for me given my family’s history in service 

to this country. My father was a Navy veteran; my stepdad retired from the Army 

after 20 years of service; and my father-in-law served in the Air Force. Last year 

my Nephew retired from the Navy after over 20 years of service. I represent a family that believes in this country and is willing to step forward when needed. 

Although I have not personally served in the Armed Services, I was raised and 

influenced by many in my family who willingly served this country to protect the 

many privileges we benefit from today. I have learned a lot from veterans, And now 

it is my time to serve them. 

Over the last few weeks, I have had the opportunity to meet with many of you 

and I have a better understanding of your concerns and priorities for the VA. You 

are looking for a secure, high service, accountable and responsive organization. 

If confirmed, I plan to bring all of my experience and leadership to the OI&T team 

and quickly work with them to develop and implement a roadmap that will enable 

Secretary McDonald’s vision to provide excellent customer service to Veterans. I believe that good technology requires solid engagement with people and focused processes that are developed to meet the veteran’s needs. My focus will be to insure that 

the team is fully engaged in working on the problems within IT and on implementing solutions to create effective interfaces to our veterans and users communities. 

Great technology requires solid engagement with people and sound business processes. When you have these two attributes not only do you get a ‘‘System’’ to be 

proud of... you get a system that makes everyone proud because it is seamless and 

invisible. It is not the topic, but the enabler. It provides insights that were not expected and frees up the user (i.e., clinician, benefit analyst) to provide the answers 

needed. 

If confirmed, I plan to create a roadmap that the team can successfully follow well 

beyond my time in this role to insure interoperability and continued delivery to the 

veteran. I also hope to show how agile and new technical strategies can result in 

useful solutions that will support the needs of the veteran faster than previously 

believed. 

What I like about IT and what makes it so frustrating for so many is that the 

science is new and ever changing. It requires people that do not fear the new frontier but that understand the life cycle of technology to know how to bring the best 

in class to bear on behalf of those that have given their best. 

During my career I have had the responsibility for leading some of the largest 

global technology groups in the world. I brought solid leadership to the forefront by 

collaborating with the business leaders to meet the goals and expectations of the 

user and most importantly the customer. We developed high quality; secure solutions and processes for the enterprise. This required three core practices within IT: 

Transparent Governance, Accountable risk management and Team enabled innovation. When these three key capabilities are in place IT works best. 

If confirmed, I plan to bring these core capabilities to the VA and create a fiscally 

responsible organization led by employees that have the ability to quickly drive to 

the expected results. This will also increase the ability to attract and maintain highly qualified personnel, which is a requirement if you hope to have world class IT. 

91 

I have always enjoyed addressing tough challenges and have worked very hard 

to maintain problem-solving skills that support the capability to merge strategic, 

operational and tactical initiatives to drive growth and innovation. I am best when 

the customer—and in this case, the veteran—is the focus of the solution. The ability 

to put the core recipient first has always been my driver. 

Good technology is secure and steps up to big challenges not with complexity, but 

with simplicity that can only lead to excellence. It requires courage and curiosity 

and a willingness to fail fast and move forward. IT also requires a can do spirit and 

a passion for success. If confirmed, I will bring all that insight and my passion to 

benefit the VA and our Veterans everywhere. Thank you. 

[The Committee questionnaire for Presidential nominees follows:] 


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[A letter from the Office of Government Ethics follows:] 


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[Letter from LaVerne H. Council to the Office of General Counsel, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs:] 


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Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Ms. Council. We welcome you. 

And, as I promised Senator Hirono, I will let her ask her question 

now. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you very much, and again, I apologize 

for jumping the gun. 

Since you already heard the beginning part of my question, this 

has to do with enabling the VA to automate certain kinds of, in 

this case, survivor benefits. I think it would be really helpful if 


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there was a system that could then also automate other benefit 

payments. So, is this something that you would like to opine upon? 

Do you have—since I expect you to be confirmed—— 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you, Senator Hirono, and thank you for a 

second opportunity to answer that question. I do believe that good 

processes should be enabled by systems, especially where it makes 

sense. Having an enterprise architecture, a process that everyone 

can follow to know what would happen, especially in survivors’ benefits, really makes a difference. 

As a child of a mom who had to leverage those benefits, and as 

a person that has engaged with many veterans and spouses who 

have leveraged those benefits, it can be very difficult today. I would 

like to see it be easier and I think technologies can enable that. 

Senator HIRONO. Yes, and especially as so many payments, for 

example, Social Security payments that go out to millions of people 

in our country are automated, so this would be an area where I 

think we can really help our beneficiaries in a much more efficient 

way. 

Mr. Chairman, may I go on, or do I just get to ask that one question—— 

Chairman ISAKSON. No, you may. I am going to let you go first. 

You go ahead. You have got 3 minutes and 26 seconds. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. 

Now, I am sure that you have also heard of the millions and millions of dollars that have already been put into, basically, to improve the electronic record of our active duty and then our veterans 

between DOD and VA and we are still not there. Would this be a 

responsibility that you would have, assuming that this is still a 

goal for both the VA and the DOD? I think it is a good goal, but 

apparently rather elusive. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Yes. That is a question that has been raised, and 

if confirmed, one of the focuses of my time would be to ensure that 

handshake between the active duty servicemen and the VA prior 

to them leaving active duty. I believe that the best information is 

information that is gotten at point of disposition, which means well 

before the person actually needs the benefit. That is probably the 

best way for us to ensure the accuracy of the data, and I think data 

should be the focus, not systems. This is a data accuracy, a data 

interoperable question, and I think there are ways with new technology that we can do that securely and also engage the active 

servicemen to let them know what their benefits and opportunities 

are with the VA well before they need them. 

Senator HIRONO. I think that if we can develop a way that the 

information for the active duty person, all of the medical information, et cetera, could be in more of a data kind of a way, computerized in some way, because an issue is that they constantly—it is 

paper being shuffled back and forth where claim documents are 

lost. It is highly frustrating. So, if we can develop a way for the 

information to be input, as so much information currently already 

is in other arenas, I think this would be a really fantastic step forward for our active duty who are going on to veteran status. I hope 

that this is something that you would work on. 

One of the issues that also keeps coming up with the veterans 

that I meet with is that they do not have access to enough informaVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00110 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
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tion as to the kinds of programs that they can apply for and qualify 

for. Not all of them, for example, have computers, but that is one 

of the best ways that we can reach them. 

I realize that you are going into an information technology position, should you be confirmed, but the whole idea of how we can 

transmit information not just electronically or through the Internet 

but in some other ways, would that also—would those other methods be within your scope of responsibility? 

Ms. COUNCIL. One of my beliefs is that as an executive in any 

role, you have a responsibility to figure out how to get things done, 

not just what is in your area of control. I think that through mobility, smart phone usage, which most people have today, as well as 

smart devices that now can read and give you information on your 

medical well being, there are ways to get information utilizing 

technology that can help the veterans stay healthy, share with the 

doctor where the veteran is, as well as engage them on how and 

what they need to do as far as their services. So, I think we have 

opportunities and I would look forward to looking into that. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Hirono. Thank you very 

much. 

Senator Blumenthal. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

As you probably know, Ms. Council, there has been repeated criticism, perennial criticism, of the lack of seamless interoperability 

between the VA and the Department of Defense, and I wonder if 

you could tell the Committee what steps you intend to take to 

make sure that this system works better so that veterans who 

leave the military have the benefit of all their medical records, the 

continuity of care they need and deserve, both with respect to 

treating physicians and pharmaceutical drugs. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal, for that question. 

This is something that has arisen as I have talked to many of you 

over the last few weeks, and the need to have that handshake and 

the transference of information is real. I think the focus initially 

was on the development of a system, but the reality is, is really the 

sharing of the data and having accurate data follow the individual 

as they move through their lifetime. That is how we have to look 

at it. 

We would have to manage this in many ways like the experience 

I had managing the supply chain. You do it from the beginning to 

the end and the data stays with the person. With today’s capabilities through everything from cloud technology to—it will change 

the interoperability flow. 

I think there are some real opportunities for us, and fundamentally, under the MyVA program, which is part of Secretary McDonald’s strategy, that creates an opportunity for us to really have that 

handshake and carry that information through with the veteran, 

again, well before they become—well before they leave the active 

services. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. My understanding is that the two systems 

still do not mesh properly—— 

Ms. COUNCIL. Yes—— 

108 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [continuing]. Is that correct? 

Ms. COUNCIL. That is correct. That is also my understanding. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. So, my question to you, with your expertise in the IT area, is where steps need to be taken, what those 

specific steps are. Is it software? Is it hardware? Is it other possible 

deficiencies? 

Ms. COUNCIL. No, I think it is data, and that is my point. I think 

it is not necessarily interoperability of the systems. It is interoperability of the data, and that would be the first thing we would go 

after is giving access to the active service veteran to get the data 

as well as working with the DOD on getting the data accurate so 

we can have it for the lifespan. I was not being clear, but that will 

be the way that we will get that handshake. Versus trying to make 

two systems work, you make the data work, and you move the 

data, you use the data, you analyze the data, and that is the data 

we share. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. What is your timetable for achieving the 

interoperability of the data? 

Ms. COUNCIL. If confirmed, I will spend time with the team to 

lay that out and that would be part of the road map that we would 

put in place that they would be able to follow once I am there and 

once we get going. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Well, I would just make the observation 

that I have sat at this table for a number of years and we have 

heard a lot about plans and blueprints and road maps, and the 

problem, as you have observed, continues to this day. That is not 

a criticism of you because you are coming into this situation—— 

Ms. COUNCIL. Mm-hmm. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [continuing]. But, I would ask that you 

provide the Committee with a time table and specific steps as part 

of your confirmation process. 

Ms. COUNCIL. If I may—— 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Please. 

Ms. COUNCIL. One of the reasons that I think I was called for 

this job is because of my reputation of being able to do what I said 

I will do. I will assure you that you will have a road map that will 

lay out a score card and the capability of providing that information; how it should be done. As I have gone through this process 

and spoken to many, what I have focused on is what they can do, 

not what they cannot. This is something that is doable, it is something that has been done, and in my 30 years of experience, I have 

seen the complexity that we see here and the non-standardization 

that we see here. It is surmountable, sir. 

I will tell you as I stand on the many veterans that I represent, 

this has got to be right. The veterans deserve it and I will make 

it my duty to make it right. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Well, thank you. We will be counting on 

you. 

Let me just finish with one last area, the security of data. What 

steps need to be taken to assure that there are no breaches, no 

hacks, no intrusions into the VA data system? 

Ms. COUNCIL. That is always my primary place to start. Once 

confirmed, I will dig into security initially. I was the head of security at my relationship with Dell, as well as with Johnson & JohnVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00112 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
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son, which are global organizations across 57 countries. Good security requires solid risk management. We will have to put that in 

place. That will be the first question that I go into. I want to understand our security posture, what issues we have had. But, what 

I can assure you is at no time during my career has there ever 

been a zero day infarction or hack on my time. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you very much. 

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Dr. Cassidy. 

HON. BILL CASSIDY, U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA 

Senator CASSIDY. Hey, Ms. Council. Good afternoon. I listened to 

your response to Mr. Blumenthal. Now, we may just be using different terms, but interoperability of a system—I am a physician, 

and so I know if I am trying to access data that is resident at another hospital and the patient is comatose, I really cannot rely 

upon the patient to hand me the data themselves. I have to be able 

to get into their system. 

I am concerned. I have read recently about DOD’s $11 billion 

RFP for a new system and it is not clear it is going to be interoperable. In fact, the best I can figure out, it is not going to be interoperable with the VA. Now, it is the DOD putting the RFP, not 

you—— 

Ms. COUNCIL. Mm-hmm. 

Senator CASSIDY [continuing]. But, I was in another committee 

hearing and I asked Karen DeSalvo, who is with the Office of 

Something-Something, and she said, no, they have some role in 

this. She says it is very frustrating. She thinks it is going to have 

a requirement of interoperability; not quite sure. She also said 

there is a culture problem, implying that DOD and VA and their 

cultures do not share data. 

So, I guess this is a kind of a multi-pronged question. First, I like 

Senator Blumenthal’s position. I would love to have some daggone 

deadlines where we are going to have interoperability. I know that 

you have not yet been approved yet, but just to say what will make 

Dick and I happy guys. 

Second, the culture. If there is a culture which is not sharing 

data, that somehow we isolate the reasons for that culture and 

begin to change it. 

Third, the RFP that DOD is putting out in some way guarantees 

that VA is going to share data. 

Now, obviously, I am venting a little bit, but what are your 

thoughts upon that which I just said. 

Ms. COUNCIL. I totally agree with the opportunity to have the 

data shared between the DOD and the VA. There is no reason that 

the data should not be shared. 

I do believe that, if confirmed, it would be my responsibility to 

come back and show you the road map and how we will get that 

corrected. I would see that as part and parcel responsibility of this 

role. I hope to have the time and the effort to put that in place. 

I do believe there is an answer, although I have not looked at 

all the information because I have not seen it all. But, I will tell 

you, if there is an issue around interoperability, it has to do with 

one being about software and one being a Vista in place. The Vista 

110 

system in place versus trying to work it with another system is the 

question that I think is at hand, and based on my architectural experience, this is an architectural question. This is a data question, 

less of a system question. I do believe there is a surmountable answer which I would love to have the opportunity to work with the 

teams, to work together to solve. 

Senator CASSIDY. OK. Well, that is, I guess, my question. I yield. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Sullivan. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Ms. Council, I am going to start with just a question I asked Dr. 

Shulkin. You know, we looked at your background, we looked at 

your resume, very impressive. You are coming to an agency that 

is, obviously, a very important one, but also one that has been 

under a lot of criticism, a lot of witnesses coming before this panel 

and other panels getting pounded by Members of Congress. What 

is your motivation? Why do you want this job? 

Ms. COUNCIL. I have to tell you that when the call first came for 

this position back in November, I really thought it might have been 

a crank call. I was not sure who would be calling me about the VA, 

given that what I had read and seen would not make me somebody 

who would be running out to want to fix this. 

However, when I started talking to Secretary McDonald and I 

took the time to understand the issues, I came back and I started 

talking to my husband. I looked at my background, I looked at the 

people that have supported me, I thought about what we have a 

responsibility to do as a country, and I thought about the fact of 

could I do this. Do I have all the capabilities and the leadership 

to do it? When I looked at my background, there was nothing that 

said I could not do it. It was saying everything about me said I 

could, and everything about me said I should. I was raised by a 

very strong parent that said, if you can, you must. 

So, even though this is an environment that probably is tougher 

in many ways, maybe is a little more personal than I am used to, 

you will find that I will bring everything to bear that I have had 

an experience to do and a blessing to do for many large companies 

to the VA. I feel very seriously that the veterans deserve a good 

opportunity. They deserve systems that work, and fundamentally, 

as a U.S. taxpayer—I do pay my taxes—I want to see that we do 

the best we can with what we have, so—— 

Senator SULLIVAN. Well—— 

Ms. COUNCIL [continuing]. You cannot complain if you are not 

willing to help. 

Senator SULLIVAN. There you go. Well, I read your background. 

I appreciate your—obviously, it is very impressive from the private 

sector. It is also very impressive as somebody who is looking at the 

VA, the number of family members that you have in your family 

who have served in the military. 

Let me go to that issue. You are coming in from the private sector. You have done a lot of work in the private sector. There is a 

common perception here that the VA needs some changes in its culture. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Mm-hmm. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Have you worked on those kind of issues in 

terms of some of your consulting roles with large organizations, 

111 

and if so, what lessons would you bring to the VA that can help 

it change its culture to deliver services for its customer, which you 

noted in your written testimony is our men and women who served 

in the military? 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you for that question, because it is probably 

where I am most capable. I was the first global Chief Information 

Officer at Johnson & Johnson’s 125-year history. That meant bringing 250 operating companies together across 57 countries in the 

world. That had not been done before and it required a change and 

a change that said that I was willing to talk to the employee and 

help them understand what their responsibilities were. 

I believe in an open door policy and an empowered employee. I 

like to remind—— 

Senator SULLIVAN. Well, what if the employees are not—I mean, 

part of it, and again, I think most of the employees at the VA want 

to serve their veterans, but are very focused on the customer. But, 

there has been a culture, decades, really—— 

Ms. COUNCIL. Mm-hmm. 

Senator SULLIVAN [continuing]. That has been very resistant to 

change. And, we are trying to help here, but certainly we need administrators, senior leadership, that can press that change. What 

are the—give me your examples or priorities of how you would do 

that, again, drawing on your experience, which has a lot of focus 

on that kind of cultural change at private sector organizations. 

Ms. COUNCIL. To get that kind of change to stick, it really requires the three things that I mentioned. It requires transparent 

governance. We have got to make sure that everyone knows what 

we are working on and that we are focused on a critical few. We 

cannot focus on everything. We have got to focus on what matters. 

Second, we have to have accountable risk management, which 

means that we are managing our risks, we know who is accountable for managing the risk, and that every employee knows their 

role and responsibility attached to that. 

Then, ultimately, we have to have a team that knows that they 

are the ones that are really responsible for the solutions, not contractors, but themselves. Fifty-six percent of the employee base at 

the VA are veterans. I believe that if they got into IT, they got into 

it to solve problems. That is why people start there. Which I believe that if they know that the expectation is that they will step 

forward and have the opportunities to solve those problems, they 

will. 

You have to continue to share those messages. You have to continue to engage. You have to engage with the business partners, 

but you have got to engage with those employees. 

Change is never easy, and as you know, everybody wants everyone else to change first. But, you have got to show what is the benefit of it, be conscious of what you are asking people to do, and be 

there when they do it. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. 

You made a comment during your testimony when you said it is 

not the topic, it is the enabler. I think that is exactly what you are 

explaining about changing a culture and an organization. No matVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00115 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
112 

ter what the problem you overcome, it is the enabler that gets everybody together moving in the same direction where this transparency concept and team responsibility to go forward. Is that 

right? 

Ms. COUNCIL. Yes, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. You know, the reason I let Ms. Hirono go 

ahead was: one, out of respect for ladies, I always want a lady to 

go first; and, two, I wanted to be last because when I read your 

resume, I found it remarkable in a number of ways. The 11 years 

between 2000 and 2011 with the Global Vice President of Dell and 

the Corporate Vice President in Johnson & Johnson, that is quite 

a decade of service. I then looked over at the awards and recognitions and see you have been in the top ten or top 15 most women 

to watch in America over a long period of time. You must really 

know your stuff. 

Ms. COUNCIL. I try to have good teams and I try to be a good 

leader, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Will you do one thing for me? 

Ms. COUNCIL. Yes, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. I ran a pretty large real estate company during the dot-com era when we went from paper and pencil to computer work and technology and from answering machines and voice 

mails. This was before the iPad and the iPhone. Then, the Governor fired the State Board of Education in my State because they 

had a huge mix-up in preparing for Y2K and asked me to come 

down to run the State Department of Education, to fix the Y2K 

problem. I did not know anything about technology, and my staff 

will tell you I still do not know anything about technology. 

[Laughter.] 

I can send an e-mail, but that is about the extent of it. However, 

I learned quickly in my business that far too many sales people of 

technology sell to the wants and not the needs, and too many people buy the wants and not the needs, which is exactly, Doctor, what 

I think is wrong in Denver. I mean, there are a lot of things that 

were built because they wanted it. They did not understand whether or not they needed it or could afford it. 

I think the same thing is probably true in information technology 

in the VA. I hope with your experience at those two great corporations and the fact that your last 5 years, you have been your own 

self-employed Chief Executive Officer, a consultant, is that right? 

Ms. COUNCIL. Yes, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. I imagine you usually were brought in to 

shoot problems, right? 

Ms. COUNCIL. To shoot problems and make money. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Those are two good combinations. 

[Laughter.] 

Especially the second one. That is a great one. 

Well, I just want to tell you that you have got a great resume. 

Your husband is awfully lucky to have married you. You made a 

good choice, sir. She is a talented lady, and we are glad that you 

are coming to the VA. I am sorry you had to wait so long for your 

testimony. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Not a problem. 

Chairman ISAKSON. You were worth waiting for. 

113 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. We wish you the best of luck and we hope 

you will always consider this Committee a resource if you need us 

for anything along the way in your work at the VA. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Do you have anything, Senator Blumenthal? 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I just want to join in thanking you for 

being here and thanks to your family. 

Ms. COUNCIL. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. The Committee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:14 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. DAN SULLIVAN TO

DAVID J. SHULKIN, M.D., NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, U.S. 

DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 1. Dr. Shulkin, every day, roughly 22 veterans commit suicide. However, 

according to a recent study by the American Psychiatric Association, there is some 

good news about the Veterans Health Administration (VHA) actually helping to prevent veteran suicides. In that study, published last Friday in ‘‘Psychiatric Services 

in Advance,’’ a publication of the American Psychiatric Association, researchers 

found that, ‘‘. . . the rate of suicide decreased significantly for veterans who used 

VHA services, while it spiked for veterans not using those services and increased 

for nonveterans.’’ While this is a positive study, this Committee just had a hearing 

last week in this Committee on the VHA being added to GAO’s ‘‘High Risk List’’ 

for ‘‘ambiguous policies and inconsistent processes, inadequate oversight and accountability, inadequate training, and unclear resource needs and allocation priorities,’’ among other issues. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, specifically what anti-suicide 

initiatives will you undertake to ensure that VHA is doing everything it can to prevent veteran suicides? 

Response. If confirmed as Undersecretary of health for VHA, reducing the rates 

of veteran suicide would be a top priority. The Clay Hunt Suicide Prevention Act 

is a good step toward reducing these tragedies. As noted, VA has had success in 

several of its’ programs that are targeted at preventing suicides among veterans. 

These include the national suicide hotline for veterans, awareness events at VA 

medical centers and screening and assessing suicide risk. I would continue to support these programs but much more needs to be done. If confirmed, I would review 

staffing policies, procedures, and barriers, as well as reviewing screening programs 

for identifying risk factors. I would look forward to working with the Committee to 

addressing this national challenge. 

Question 2. Dr. Shulkin, according to GAO’s High Risk Study, the VHA has only 

implemented 27% of GAO’s recommendations and has more than a 100 GAO recommendations left to implement. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, what percentage of these 

unaddressed GAO recommendations do you commit to implement to get the VHA 

back on the right track and preventing more veteran suicides? 

Response. I have been able to review the publically available information on the 

GAO’s report on VHA. I am familiar with the five general categories of concern that 

led to the GAO placing VHA on the high risk list (ambiguous policies and inconsistent processes, inadequate training, oversight and accountability issues, unclear 

resource needs and priorities and information technology). If confirmed, I commit to 

working to address these issues and come off of the GAO list. It would be my goal 

to prioritize recommendations to help VA focus on suicide prevention. 

Question 3. Dr. Shulkin, in figures recently compiled by the Associated Press 

showing a snapshot of in time wait time information for 940 VA hospitals and outpatient clinics nationwide, the shows that ‘‘an average of less than 1 percent of completed appointments at the Anchorage outpatient clinic—0.90 percent—involved 

delays of at least 31 days from the veteran’s preferred appointment date during that 

period. In fact, averages were lower at facilities in Wasilla, Fairbanks and Kenai.’’ 

Additionally, ‘‘nationally, about 2.8 percent of completed appointments involved 

delays of more than 30 days.’’ While not everything is good with the VA in Alaska, 

in this area, we must be doing something right. After all, we have less than 1% 

waiting over 30 days when over 20% of my state’s population lives in rural areas, 

many of which are hundreds of miles from VA facilities. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, 

114 

how would you use what is being done in the Alaska VA system and use it as a 

model to help other areas of the U.S.? 

Response. Reducing wait times and access to care is a critical issue to address 

within VA. I am glad that Alaska has successfully addressed the wait time issue. 

Benchmarking data and sharing best practices is an important way that VA can leverage the capabilities that are within the system. Once best practices are identified 

they should then be implemented and standardized. If confirmed, I would like to 

learn more about the processes and practices in place in Alaska and share what is 

learned with other VA facilities across the country. 

Question 4. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, what suggestions would you make to help 

create a culture at the VA that rewards this type of achievement—even incentivizes 

it—so that the VA and VHA do not end on the GAO’s high risk list AND more importantly, so that our veterans get the care they have earned? 

Response. Successful organizations have performance measurement and management systems in place. This then allows those in the system that are performing 

well to be recognized and rewarded and those that are not meeting the standards 

to be appropriately addressed as well. The GAO identified that VHA was lacking 

in oversight and accountability and in consistency in its’ processes. These issues 

need to be addressed and will be essential for VA to establish a culture that serves 

veterans with the highest quality of care. I do believe in rewards for good performance. If confirmed, I would seek to learn about what systems are in place within 

VA to reward and recognize good performance and extraordinary efforts. 

Question 5. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, what suggestions would you make to improve the culture at the VHA? 

Response. Changing the culture at VHA will require a number of important steps 

to be taken. As Undersecretary I would support the Secretary’s efforts to have all 

employees recommit to the mission of serving veterans. The culture of an organization is largely determined by the values of the leadership and of its’ employees. If 

confirmed, I would travel to VHA sites throughout the country to connect with medical center leaders and staff to communicate our commitments to veterans and to 

hear their thoughts and ideas on how we can best support their efforts to care for 

their patients. I would plan on communicating the organization’s goals, performance 

improvement plans, expectations, and mutual accountabilities. I would commit to 

clear and fact based decisionmaking by leadership and the inclusion of the workforce and veterans in how these decisions are made. Culture change requires regular communication, consistency of message, and supporting behaviors that should 

be encouraged and penalizing behaviors that do not support the mission. 

Question 6. Dr. Shulkin, if confirmed, what suggestions would you make to actually encourage innovation and new ideas? What measures can the Congress give you 

to help nurture these innovations and ideas cut through the VA bureaucracy? Put 

simply, how would you help create and reward excellence at the VHA? 

Response. If confirmed, I would work to enhance the culture of innovation within 

VA. Innovation currently exists within VA but needs to be encouraged and nourished. My background as an entrepreneur has allowed me to understand the necessary requirements needed to be able to take new ideas and develop them into 

meaningful initiatives. In order to further encourage innovation within VA I would 

look for opportunities to enhance infrastructure to help incubate promising new 

ideas, encourage idea sharing among VA employees and medical staff, further collaborations with academic centers in the areas of discovery and technology, and seek 

opportunities to partner with the private sector and other government agencies to 

promote new practice innovations. Given the importance of innovation in our rapidly 

changing healthcare environment, I would ensure that innovators get appropriate 

attention and support from the central VHA office. Rewarding employees for their 

ideas and initiative is important. VA can encourage innovation through its’ competitions and recognition programs and through ensuring that innovations are integrated back into the clinical setting to improve the quality of life for veterans. 

POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. SHERROD BROWN TO DAVID J. 

SHULKIN, M.D., NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 7. Dr. Shulkin, thank you for your thoughtful answers related to the current implementation of the Veteran’s Choice Program. We are all hopeful that by 

changing the distance to forty miles driving, not forty miles as the crow flies, more 

veterans will take advantage of the pilot program. As any good clinician knows, 

when you don’t have data to analysis a problem set, it is difficult to know whether 

115 

the proposed solution is appropriately addressing the problem. We need as many 

veterans, who qualify, in the Choice Program to know if it is effective. 

As I raised in the hearing, I also believe that the VA needs to review whether 

a veteran can receive the adequate care at the closest VA medical facility. I strongly 

believe that if the medical facility within 40 miles, does not provide the specific 

treatment required by the veteran, that veteran should be able to seek outside medical care. In your professional opinion, as a physician and administrator, what other 

steps should the Department take to fully implement the Veteran’s Choice Program? 

Response. The Veterans Access, Choice, and Accountability Act of 2014 is important legislation that needs to be fully implemented. If confirmed, I am committed 

to seeing that veterans get access to the care they need from within VA and, when 

not available, from the private sector, as specified by the legislation. Ensuring that 

veterans have access to the care they need requires a comprehensive operational 

plan. In this plan, there must be clarity around the policies and processes that are 

being utilized to access care. Veterans must also be aware of their benefits and how 

to seek assistance in obtaining care if they need help. The VA must also work to 

expand partnerships with the private sector and community partners to ensure the 

seamless coordination of care between VA and non-VA providers. Finally, there 

needs to be an effective monitoring and observation plan in place to ensure that the 

system is working as intended. 

Question 8. Dr. Shulkin, I appreciated your candor during the hearing regarding 

Reservists who had been exposed to Agent Orange residue toxins while working on 

C–123s. I would ask that provide me with a timeline for fully resolving the C–123 

issue, including health and disability benefits. 

Response. I am aware of the serious health concerns regarding dioxin exposure 

in Agent-Orange contaminated aircraft. I have reviewed the Institute of Medicine 

report on this topic released in January 2015. The VA must be committed to caring 

for those that have experienced adverse health events while serving their country. 

While I am not currently privy to any specific discussions that are ongoing within 

VA about next steps or timelines, if confirmed I would commit to quickly coming 

up to speed on the issues and working with the Committee to ensure that this issue 

is resolved in the shortest time possible. 

Question 9. Dr. Shulkin, the lack of a fully integrated electronic health record system between the Department of Defense and VA has been a persistent problem for 

more than a decade. In your professional opinion, how has this impacted the VA’s 

ability to provide the appropriate medical care for veterans? 

Response. Both DOD and VA have renewed their commitments to an electronic 

exchange of information and to working together to resolve the transfer of information between Departments. As a physician and an administrator, I know the importance of clinicians having access to information about care that has been provided 

by the previous healthcare provider. Without a seamless transfer of healthcare information, the care provided can be suboptimal. Without the prior record, a provider 

caring for a patient does not have the ability to access the results of past diagnostic 

studies, findings from other doctors, and medication history. This lack of information can present issues with regard to quality and safety. It is my strong belief that 

this problem must be resolved and, if confirmed, I would commit to work with this 

Committee and with DOD to find a workable resolution to this issue. 

RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL

TO LAVERNE H. COUNCIL, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF VETERANS

AFFAIRS OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 1. I appreciated your commitment to providing the Committee with a 

roadmap of concrete actions to ensure that health data is interoperable between 

DOD and VA. Will you commit to providing that roadmap within 60 days of assuming the position of Assistant Secretary for Information and Technology? 

Response. If confirmed, I will commit to reviewing existing plans and timelines, 

and determining with the team whether these plans address VA/DOD interoperability needs. I commit to briefing the Committee within 60 days on the status of 

interoperability, and working with the Committee to achieving this important goal. 

Question 2. With the dramatic increase in malware and intrusion attempts in the 

last few months, it is critical that VA take steps to ensure that personal and health 

data remains secure. Will you commit to providing the Committee with a detailed 

plan, within 90 days of assuming the position of Assistant Secretary for Information 

116 

and Technology, on how you intend to remediate VA’s information technology security deficiencies? 

Response. I do not have specific knowledge of all of the security issues the VA 

has faced. If confirmed, I will have access to all necessary information to gain an 

understanding of what is happening, how well the team is addressing the issues and 

what plans have been created to date. I will also gain an understanding of the 

team’s performance and what must be done immediately to change the reality and 

perceptions of security. 

In my past experience, I have delivered detailed plans for similar programs in 90 

days; however, the plan must be collaborated with leadership and the internal customer and communicated to staff. I will commit to making this plan a high priority 

goal for VA and OIT and being transparent with the Committee. 

I will commit to providing the Committee my initial assessment of the existing 

state of VA’s security measures for personal and health data. Additionally, I will 

provide a plan to remediate these challenges within 90 days of assuming the position. I look forward to working closely with the Committee on the next steps to addressing identified deficiencies as quickly as possible. 

POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. DAN SULLIVAN TO LAVERNE H. COUNCIL, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 3. Mrs. Council, the Committee may know that Alaska is home to the 

highest per capita population of veterans in the country. As of August 2014, Alaska 

had nearly 75,000 veterans, nearly one-tenth of our population. One of my campaign 

pledges—as a part of my ‘‘Promises Delivered Project’’—was to ensure that veterans, 

wherever they are, receive the best quality care. What the Committee may not know 

is that Alaska is about two and half times the size of Texas, with over 663,000 sq. 

miles of area. Because of the amount of area we have, Alaska leads the Nation in 

telemedicine and telehealth delivery, ensuring that Alaskans, wherever they are, receive the best quality and most cost-effective treatment possible. In fact, one area 

where Alaska is breaking the mold where many native veterans who live in bush 

Alaska no longer have to take multiple days off to fly into Anchorage to see their 

doctor and can instead video teleconference with their doctor from their local health 

clinic. Alaska’s exports to the U.S. are famous, including: oil, salmon, and minerals. 

Ms. Council, have you ever visited Alaska and toured, not just our VA system, but 

our larger telehealth network? If confirmed, will you commit to a visit to Alaska to 

see all the great work that Alaskans are doing? 

Response. I have not had a tour of the VA system or the telehealth network in 

Alaska. However, if confirmed I would be willing to visit and understand the VA 

operations for Alaskan veterans, and leveraging IT resources to support service delivery in any way I can. 

Question 4. Mrs. Council, if confirmed, how will you address the bureaucratic redtape at the VA that often prevents innovative ideas, like what is being done in Alaskan telemedicine and telehealth, from being exported to the Lower 48 where greater 

innovation may be needed? 

Response. If confirmed, I will review and share what needs to change to allow IT 

to be much more agile in meeting the needs of the veteran. While at Johnson & 

Johnson, I was responsible for promoting Telehealth/telemedicine as a business opportunity. I believe it is a great way to support well-being and provide care. I am 

not sure what projects are currently being implemented at VA in this space, but as 

part of understanding the work currently being completed, I will look at work being 

done in this space and evaluate our deployment strategy. 

POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. SHERROD BROWN TO LAVERNE H. 

COUNCIL, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS FOR INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 5. Ms. Council, it seems that several of the issues raised after Phoenix 

could have been resolved if there were an upgraded scheduling program, integrated 

electronic medical system between DOD and VA, and properly defined procedures 

and protocols. 

How will you ensure that VA finally takes IT upgrades seriously? 

Response. Complexity, lack of standardization and lack of software life cycle management can create vulnerabilities in security, interoperability and innovation. It 

also can create an inability to deliver solutions in a timely manner. I have been reVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00120 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
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sponsible for implementing the quality IT processes for Dell and Johnson & Johnson 

to eliminate the stove piped issues and increase the velocity and quality of IT systems to support processes and customers. 

If confirmed, I will bring my experience addressing these challenges to VA, 

through accountable risk management, transparent governance, and team-enabled 

innovation. 

Question 6. Ms. Council, over the past decade more than $127 million was wasted 

on failed programs in the past, how do we stop that type of mismanagement from 

happening? 

Response. If confirmed, I will need to look at the full inventory of projects and 

issues in the environment to understand the status of each project and what has 

been promised to the departments (users) within the VA. 

The Department would then need to prioritize and understand what is at risk and 

what needs to be done to insure we meet our deliverables as expected. We need to 

ensure that all required resources needed to fix the issues are made available and 

that we are getting the most out of the finite resources being utilized (i.e., people, 

dollars, time). 

We will then come up with an operations strategy to meet our goals and establish 

a timeline with the business/stakeholders for delivery. Sometimes the answer is to 

stop a project if is no longer viable or the technology is obsolete. The PMO will keep 

us on schedule, but we will also have to be willing to stop work that is not going 

as planned. 

If confirmed, I look forward to working with the Committee as this evaluation 

process moves forward. 

(119) 

NOMINATION OF MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, TO 

BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR FOR 

VETERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:36 p.m., in room 

418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Johnny Isakson, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Isakson, Moran, Boozman, Rounds, Tillis, Sullivan, Blumenthal, Brown, Hirono, and Manchin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNNY ISAKSON, 

CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA 

Chairman ISAKSON. I am going to call this meeting of the Veterans’ Affairs Committee of the U.S. Senate to order. I would like 

to welcome Mr. Michaud to the hearing today, the nominee by the 

President of the United States to be the Assistant Secretary of 

Labor for Veterans’ Employment and Training. We are delighted 

that you are here today. 

There is probably no more important job for our veterans who 

are coming home than getting another job outside the military, no 

more important responsibility than the responsibility we have as 

members of the Senate and the House to provide the resources necessary for the training and implementation of employment for all 

veterans. There are so many issues tied to employment of veterans, 

including the homeless veterans program which I know the President has made an outspoken statement on reducing homelessness 

and we want to join in that. 

I come from Georgia where Home Depot is one of the most notable employers of returning veterans of any company in the country. 

We want to continue to see we do as much outreach as we can to 

have as many businesses like Home Depot providing that type of 

help to our veterans. 

Most importantly, Mike, we are very proud that a member of the 

House Veterans’ Affairs Committee is going to take this appointment. Your experience on the Committee has been outstanding. 

Your contribution has been outstanding. I had the privilege of serving a short time in the House with you and, as I told you in private, from the minute I met you was impressed not only with your 

intellect, but with your commitment to the job. I know you will emVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00123 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
120 

brace the same commitment to the Veterans Administration and 

the Department of Labor. 

My commitment to you is—barring you screwing up this hearing 

or Angus telling us something we do not know, or the FBI reports 

saying something I did not know about—as the Ranking Member 

knows, it is my intention to go through the FBI report tomorrow 

and then probably have an off-the-floor markup next week so we 

can get this straight, because we do not need any time wasting in 

the Department of Labor. 

We appreciate the fact of your willingness to serve your country 

and serve the veterans who have made this the great country what 

it is. With that said, I will introduce the Ranking Member, Richard 

Blumenthal. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, 

RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I join the Chairman in thanking you for 

your willingness to serve in this very, very important position and 

your past service in the House of Representatives, and also in your 

State legislature. The only condition on my vote is that you tell us 

all the bad stuff about Senator King when he was in Maine, although I am sure knowing him there is very little there. 

In all seriousness, I want to say how important this position is. 

I do not need to tell you the authority over the TAP program, over 

veterans’ employment programs, serving the homeless, and most 

especially, in my mind, the programs serving our National Guard 

and Reserves. 

They are often forgotten in this building, as in this town, but our 

National Guard and Reserves have come to be, in effect, as important as our full-time active duty service men and women. One of 

my fears, as I have articulated publicly is that, in effect, employers 

are either downplaying or circumventing the law by implicitly 

sometimes discriminating against soldiers of the Reserves or National Guard because of their commitments to our Nation and the 

knowledge that they may be gone for periods of time because of 

their service. 

I am going to ask for a commitment from you that you will do 

everything within your power to investigate and take action 

against such practices if they are occurring. 

I believe that most employers are honest and patriotic. The vast 

majority are, in fact, going out of their way to employ our veterans 

and our members of the National Guard and Reserves, but there 

may be a minority that are doing otherwise. 

I want to emphasize to you the importance of women veterans 

and employment of them these days. As you know, 20 percent of 

new recruits in our military are women and close to 280,000 female 

veterans have served in Iraq or Afghanistan since September 11, 

2001, and by some estimates, female veterans will grow in number 

to approximately 11 percent of the total veteran population by 

2020. 

I also will ask for your support on behalf of the VA, though you 

are not in a position to give it now, I recognize, for the legislation 

that I have reintroduced to extend and renew the Work OpporVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00124 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
121 

tunity Tax Credit for Veterans, which provide employers with tax 

credits for hiring unemployed or disabled veterans. 

I really appreciate your being here and I certainly will support 

the Chairman’s efforts to move this nomination as expeditiously as 

possible. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. We are 

honored and privileged today to have the junior Senator from the 

great State of Maine, Angus King, here to introduce our nominee. 

Senator King, I will turn the podium over to you. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ANGUS KING, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE 

Senator KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Committee. It is a 

pleasure to be here, yet I must say it is a daunting experience to 

sit on this side of the table. 

I want to introduce you to Mike Michaud. Some of you know him 

and some do not. I have known him for about 30 years; worked 

very closely with him. He was a member of the State Senate in 

Maine for all of the 8 years that I was Governor. He was President 

of the Senate for part of that time. 

As some of you know, the relationship between the President of 

the Senate and the Governor of the State is always a close one, and 

as an Independent, I used to say I have no automatic friends in the 

legislature and no automatic enemies, but 186 skeptics. Mike was 

one of those, but he was also one of those that was always willing 

to listen and work on a bipartisan basis to solve the problems that 

we faced in Maine. 

I was making a few notes while thinking about Mike. When I go 

to hire somebody, there are qualities that I look for, and I think 

they fit Mike. The first is competence, somebody who is capable of 

getting the job done, is going to take it seriously, who is going to 

understand the requirements of the job, and has the competence of 

getting it done in a serious way. I think that is so important in a 

job like this one which is really about administration and about 

problem-solving and about getting things done on behalf of our 

veterans. 

The second is experience. Mike Michaud probably has as much 

experience in veterans’ affairs issues as anyone in the Congress. He 

was the Ranking Member on the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee for a number of years, headed up some of their subcommittees, and significant for me, he took a leadership role in the backlog issue at the VA in 2013 before it really exploded into the public 

consciousness. He was on that issue early and introduced a comprehensive package in the House that actually passed the House, 

as I recall, and did not pass here. I think that was one of the first 

attempts at a comprehensive reform of the VA. His experience in 

this area, his knowledge of veterans, his connections to veterans in 

Maine are really deep and extensive. 

The third quality, competence, followed by experience, and then 

character. As I say, I have worked with Mike closely for many 

years and he is a man of true character. I think it was Alan Simpson of Wyoming who said, if you have character, nothing else matters and if you do not have it, nothing else matters. Mike has it. 

122 

He is a man who is passionate in the defense of his constituents 

and the people that he represents, which in this case will be the 

veterans of America, and that brings me to the final quality, which 

is commitment. 

He has demonstrated his commitment to veterans and to their 

needs, and the role that the Department of Labor and the Veterans 

Administration can and should play. 

I have often felt that if the military spent as much time on outplacing our veterans as it does on recruiting them, as much time 

and resources, the veterans’ community would be better off, and 

that is another discussion we can have at the Armed Services Committee. 

Here today, I just want to wholeheartedly endorse Mike 

Michaud. Unfortunately, I have to go off, as you all know, to another meeting. That is the way this place seems to work. This is 

a good Maine man. We have a saying in Maine that if somebody 

is pretty good, they are referred to as finest kind, and the people 

on the coast of Maine would say Mike Michaud is finest kind. I am 

happy and honored to be here to present him to you today. Thank 

you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Well, Senator King, thank you for your introduction. We will allow you to be excused at any point in time you 

wish to leave the hearing. We will miss you, but we know you have 

got other responsibilities. 

Senator KING. I intend to stay at least to hear Mike’s opening 

statement and then I am afraid I will have to leave. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Under the rules of this Committee, the testimony of all Presidential nominees appearing before the Committee 

must be given under oath. At this time, I would like to ask Mr. 

Michaud to stand and raise his right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 

about to give before the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs will 

be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 

you God? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I do. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you. Please be seated and give us 

your testimony. We welcome you to the Committee. 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR FOR VETERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to 

thank Senator King for that very kind and very generous introduction. 

Good afternoon, Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Veterans’ Affairs committee. I want to thank you for the opportunity, first of all, to testify today for considering my nomination to serve as the Assistant 

Secretary for Veterans’ Employment and Training. 

Your dedication and commitment to our Nation’s veterans, 

transitioning servicemembers, and their families is inspiring. I am 

happy to have had the opportunity to serve with many of you over 

my 12 years in Congress. I know that you understand how important the mission is at hand. I am humbled and honored by PresiVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00126 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
123 

dent Barack Obama’s nomination to lead the Department of Labor’s Veterans’ Employment and Training Service. 

President Obama and Secretary of Labor Perez are committed to 

ensuring that the brave warriors who served his country have the 

employment support, assistance, and opportunities that they need 

and deserve to successfully transition to the civilian workforce and 

secure meaningful careers. 

During my entire time in Congress, I served on the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee and I am often reminded of President 

Lincoln’s promise, ‘‘To care for him who shall have borne the battle, 

and for his widow, and his orphan.’’ If confirmed, it will be my 

honor and privilege to work with this Committee to achieve that 

goal. 

For me, taking care of those who are wearing and have worn the 

uniform is personal. Throughout my career as an elected official, 

both at the State level and Federal level, I have had the privilege 

of meeting with the wounded, with the mothers of the fallen, and 

with many veterans who have gone on to make our Nation 

stronger. 

Every day I was reminded of what made our country the greatest 

in the world: the sacrifice of our warriors. In that time, I learned 

a great deal, that there were stories that would make you want to 

cry, and sometimes we did. There were those days that we were 

disgusted by the way the servicemembers were treated as they suffered through an injury serving our Nation. But most of all, I 

watched as veterans triumphed and overcame great odds to continue making America great. 

I have always worked across the aisle, partnering with Republicans and Independents to do what was right for our Nation’s veterans. As each of you knows, the Veterans’ Affairs Committee in 

both chambers are considered the least partisan in Congress. As 

Ranking Member of the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, I 

fought to ensure that that tradition continued, as I always believed 

and I still do believe, in working in a nonpartisan manner. We 

need to put veterans first before politics. 

In that vein, I worked with many of you to pass legislation and 

implement programs designed to care for the needs of our veterans 

and their families. A few examples include, using funding that 

Congress provided, we were able to build two new, state-of-the-art 

community-based outpatient clinics in Maine. Both of these facilities were built on land owned by Maine veterans’ homes and included amenities designed to help address the unique needs of our 

female veteran population in Maine. 

I also worked with the former Veterans Affairs Secretary to help 

get land owned by VA made available for programs to address 

homelessness among veterans in Maine. Volunteers of America are 

now raising the $1.5 million they need to raise to build the cabins 

on that land that will be used to house current homeless veterans 

in Maine. 

The reason why I mention these two projects, although there are 

others, is because they are an example of a public/private, non-profit collaborative effort that is able to forge. I will be a forward-looking leader, if confirmed by this Committee and the Senate. 

124 

We are reminded every day of the tremendous sacrifice made by 

members of the military. They leave their families, friends, and careers behind to defend the freedoms here at home and around the 

world. When they return home, these brave men and women deserve a hero’s welcome and a chance to utilize their unique skills 

to help rebuild our economy. 

The recent trend for veterans’ employment has been positive 

with most veterans successfully transitioning into the civilian 

workforce. While there has been significant progress in addressing 

veterans’ unemployment, there is still challenges that remain. 

President Obama and Secretary Perez have made a commitment 

to provide those who have worn the uniform and their families 

with the support, assistance, and opportunities that they need and 

deserve to find and secure meaningful careers. If confirmed, I 

would work with this Committee, with Congress, other Federal 

agencies, our national veterans’ service organizations, and our 

stakeholders to fulfill this commitment. 

During the past couple of weeks, I have had the opportunity to 

meet with some of you and your staff. I have received invaluable 

guidance and insight into the Committee’s priorities and concern. 

I want you to know that I hear your concerns and I am ready to 

go to work. If confirmed, I look forward to continuing that dialog 

and I am committed to transparency and being open with this 

Committee. 

In closing, if confirmed, I will work closely with you, with our 

partners, our stakeholders, with a dedicated VETS team to provide 

transitioning servicemembers, veterans, and their families with the 

best possible resources that they need to enable them to succeed 

in today’s economy. 

Thank you again for your dedication and your commitment to our 

transitioning servicemembers, veterans and their families, and for 

considering my nomination today. I appreciate the opportunity to 

testify before you today and I am happy to answer any questions 

that you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Michaud follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL MICHAUD, NOMINEE FOR U.S. DEPARTMENT OF

LABOR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR VETERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING

Good morning Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for considering my nomination to serve as the Assistant 

Secretary for Veterans’ Employment and Training. 

Your dedication and commitment to our Nation’s veterans, transitioning warriors, 

and their families is inspiring. I am happy to have had the opportunity to serve 

with many of you during my 12 years in Congress. I know that you understand the 

importance of the mission at hand. 

I am humbled and honored by President Barack Obama’s nomination to lead the 

Department of Labor’s Veterans’ Employment and Training Service (VETS). President Obama and Secretary of Labor Perez are committed to ensuring that the brave 

warriors who serve this country have the employment support, assistance and opportunities they need and deserve to successfully transition to the civilian workforce, and find and secure meaningful careers. During my entire time in Congress, 

I served on the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, and I am often reminded of 

President Lincoln’s promise, ‘‘To care for him who shall have borne the battle, and 

for his widow, and his orphan.’’ If confirmed, it will be my honor and privilege to 

work with this Committee to achieve that goal. 

For me, taking care of those who are wearing and have worn the uniform is personal. Throughout my career as an elected official at the state and Federal level, 

125 

I have had the privilege of meeting with the wounded, with the mothers of the fallen, and with the many veterans that have gone on to make our Nation stronger. 

Every day, I was reminded of what made our country the greatest in the world: the 

sacrifice of the American servicemember. In that time, I learned a great deal. There 

were stories that made you want to cry, and sometimes we did. There were days 

you were disgusted by the way servicemembers were treated as they suffered 

through an injury serving our Nation. But most of all, I watched as veterans triumphed, and over came great odds to continue making America great. 

I have always worked across the aisle, partnering with Republicans and Independents to do what was right for our Nation’s veterans. As each of you knows, the 

Veterans’ Affairs Committees in both chambers are considered the least partisan in 

Congress. As Ranking Member of the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, I fought 

to ensure that tradition continued as I always believed, and still do believe, that 

we need to put the veteran before the politics. In that vein I worked with many of 

you to pass legislation and implement programs designed to care for the needs of 

our veterans and their families. A few examples include: 

• Using funding that Congress provided, we were able to build two new state-ofthe-art Community Based Outpatient Clinics (CBOC). Both of these facilities were 

built on property owned by Maine Veterans’ Homes and included amenities designed 

to help address the unique needs of the female veteran population in Maine. 

• In Aroostook County we established an Access Received Closer to Home (ARCH) 

program that has been successful in providing veterans access to health care closer 

to their residence. As a member of the House of Representatives, Senator Moran 

was instrumental in the creation of the legislation that provided for ARCH. 

• I worked with the former Veteran’s Affairs Secretary to help get land owned 

by the VA made available for a program to address homelessness among veterans 

in Maine. Volunteers of America are now helping to raise the $1.5 million needed 

to build cabins on this land, which will be used to house currently homeless 

veterans. 

The reason why I mention these projects is because they are examples of publicprivate-non-profit collaborative efforts that I was able to forge. This is the forwardlooking leader that I will be if I am confirmed. 

We are reminded every day of the tremendous sacrifices made by the members 

of the Military. They leave their families, friends, and careers behind to defend our 

freedoms here at home and around the world. When they return home, these brave 

men and women deserve a hero’s welcome and a chance to utilize their unique skills 

to help rebuild our economy. Yet, all too often, they face a difficult transition back 

to civilian life and struggle to find a job. If I have learned anything in my time on 

Capitol Hill, our Nation’s veterans don’t need a handout, but with a hand-up, they 

exceed all of our expectations. President Obama and Secretary Perez have made a 

commitment to provide those who have worn the uniform and their families with 

the support, assistance and opportunities they need and deserve to find and secure 

meaningful careers. If confirmed, I would work with this Committee, Congress, 

other Federal agencies, our Nation’s Veteran Service Organizations, and our stakeholders to fulfill this commitment. 

During the past couple of weeks, I have had the opportunity to meet with some 

of you and your staff. I have received invaluable guidance and insight into the Committee’s priorities and concerns. I want you to know that I hear your concerns and 

am ready to get to work. If confirmed, I look forward to continuing this dialog and 

am committed to being transparent and open with you. 

In closing, if confirmed, I will work closely with you, with our partners, stakeholders and with the dedicated VETS team to provide transitioning servicemembers, 

veterans, and their families with the best possible resources that they will need to 

enable their success in today’s economy. Thank you again for your dedication and 

commitment to our transitioning warriors, Nation’s veterans and their families, and 

for considering my nomination. 

I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today and am happy to answer 

any questions you may have. 

126 

[The Committee questionnaire for Presidential nominees follows:] 


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[Attachments follow:] 


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[Attachments follow:] 


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[Attachments for A, B, and C follow:] 


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[Letter from the U.S. Office of Government Ethics follows:] 


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[Letter from nominee to the Office of the Solicitor, U.S. Department of Labor follows:] 


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RESPONSE TO PREHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. JOHNNY ISAKSON TO MI- CHAEL H. MICHAUD, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR FOR VET- ERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING

Question 1. For many years, you served on the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

of the U.S. House of Representatives, which has legislative and oversight responsibilities with regard to the Department of Labor’s Veterans’ Employment and 

Training Service (DOL-VETS) and the programs and laws it administers. 

A. What are your preliminary thoughts on the most serious challenges facing 

DOL-VETS? 

Response. If confirmed as Assistant Secretary for VETS, I will work tirelessly 

every day to honor veterans by helping them succeed in the civilian workforce when 

their time in the armed services comes to end. While veterans’ unemployment is the 

lowest it has been in nearly seven years, it is still too high. We must address work 

with our partners in the public and private sectors to address the barriers to employment faced by our Nation’s servicemen and women. Similarly, the rate of homelessness among veterans also has declined. We must remain vigilant in our efforts 

to ensure that if and when a veteran faces a housing crisis, programs are available 

to help. A robust program of enforcement of the Uniformed Services Employment 

and Reemployment Rights Act is critical to ensuring that the civilian job rights and 

benefits for veterans and members of the active and Reserve components of the U.S. 

Armed Forces are protected. 

B. What would be your highest priorities upon assuming the role of the Assistant 

Secretary for Veterans’ Employment and Training? 

Response. My goal is to ensure that the transition for the military personnel to 

civilian life is less burdensome and more rewarding for veterans and their families. 

In particular, I would strive to achieve the following goals: 

• Improve outreach to servicemembers, veterans and their families to ensure they 

are aware of and have access to the programs and services available to help 

them achieve their employment and career goals; 

• Focus on providing intensive employment services to those with significant barriers to employment; 

• Improve the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), in collaboration with the Departments of Veterans Affairs, Defense, Homeland Security and others to by implementing the redesigned DOL Employment Workshop as part of comprehensive effort to seamlessly transition Servicemembers, Guard and Reserve members and their families from active duty to civilian life; and 

• Increase and enhance VETS ability to measure and report on the impact of our 

programs by improving data collection and reporting. 

Question 2. For fiscal year 2016, the President requested $271 million for DOLVETS, including $175 million for grant programs and more than $40 million to support 230 employees. To ensure that the Committee has a complete record for consideration of this nomination, would you please describe the experiences that demonstrate your ability to effectively manage a budget and staff of this size? 

Response. I acknowledge that I have never managed or led an organization the 

size of the Veterans’ Employment and Training Service, but I believe that the character of the manager rather than the size of the agency is what’s important. I 

strongly believe that my 34 years of experience leading, managing, and supervising 

in my career as an elected official, my extensive knowledge as Ranking Member of 

the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, and my work with Veterans Service Organizations prepares me well for the challenges I will face in leading the agency. I believe in collaboration, always having an open door, and listening to the viewpoints 

of those who may disagree with my position. 

Question 3. DOL-VETS shares responsibility with the Departments of Defense 

and Veterans Affairs for ensuring our servicemembers are prepared for transitioning 

into the civilian workforce when they leave the military. Specifically, the Department of Labor is responsible for providing a three-day employment workshop as part 

of the Transition Assistance Program. 

A. Do you yet have a sense of how you would ensure this training reflects current 

best practices that private and public sector hiring managers use to hire employees? 

Response. I need a much more intimate understanding of the field operations and 

current impact of VETS programs before I can fully answer that question. If confirmed, I plan to meet with employers—in the public and private sector, observe operations in the field, solicit input from VETS’ staff and staff funded by the Jobs for 

Veterans State Grants programs who are based in communities and who understand local employment markets in order to do ensure that TAP program meets the 

needs of servicemembers and the employers who wish to hire them. 

169 

B. Do you yet have a sense of how DOL-VETS could better assess the impact its 

employment workshops have on a veteran’s ability to gain employment? 

Response. I agree that it is critical that agencies be able to show that their programs have a positive impact on the clients they are charged to serve. Consequently, 

one of my first priorities will be to learn more about how the agency currently measures the impact of the various programs it administers and solicit input from VETS’ 

team members, workforce development practitioners, Members of the Committee, 

veterans and stakeholder groups on how to do just that. 

Question 4. In 2013, you supported H.R. 2481, which would have created a new 

Veterans Economic Opportunity Administration within the Department of Veterans 

Affairs. 

A. How do you see the work of DOL-VETS and VA complementing each other and 

do you yet have a sense of where the two Departments could better coordinate their 

functions to improve economic opportunities for veterans? 

Response. While the VA is primarily a benefits agency, and that can include educational benefits, DOL has the lead on training and employment assistance for all 

Americans, including veterans. If confirmed, I would work to increase coordination 

between the two Departments to ensure that employment and training programs 

are delivered in a way that avoids duplication and leverages DOL’s information on 

local labor markets and growing industries to help vets use their benefits in ways 

that improve their employment outcomes. 

B. Do you yet have a sense of whether the size and location of DOL-VETS within 

the Department of Labor create any challenges for it across its four key program 

areas? 

Response. Not at this time. However if confirmed, I see my primary role as Assistant Secretary to guarantee that VETS brings to bear the full complement of resources of the Department and ensures that those resources are readily available 

for veterans and servicemembers seeking to transition into the civilian labor force. 

Question 5. To accomplish its mission, DOL-VETS works with veterans and employers to improve their interactions with each other. 

A. Do you have preliminary thoughts on what would be an effective strategy for 

DOL-VETS to engage employers across the public and private sectors at local and 

national levels? 

Response. I want to gain a fuller understanding of what strategies VETS is currently utilizing in order to assess what’s working and what isn’t. I think that DOLVETS has failed historically at adequately communicating with stakeholders and 

failing to show its value to the veteran community. Improving outreach to servicemembers, veterans and the employer community to ensure they are aware of and 

have access to the programs and services available to help them achieve their employment and hiring goals is critical to that effort. In particular, reaching out to 

small and medium size businesses—who make of the bulk of employers—will be a 

top priority of mine, if confirmed. 

B. In your view, what are key facts or tools that employers may need to know 

when it comes to veterans? 

Response. If confirmed, I want to invest time in talking to employers about the 

traits that veterans can bring to help a company succeed. I’ve had the opportunity 

to meet with employers in Maine and across the country during my career as an 

elected official, and the ones I’ve met don’t need convincing that veterans are indispensable members of any team. That said, we need to make those employer-veteran 

applicant connections happen on a real level, and I’m committed to doing that, if 

confirmed. 

Question 6. The Jobs for Veterans State Grant (JVSG) program reported stateby-state employment entry rates between 36% and 68% for participants of its programs in the 50 states during program year 2013. 

A. In addition to these metrics, do you yet have a sense of whether there are other 

factors about the JVSG program’s outcomes that should be tracked? 

Response. I would want the opportunity to discuss this with the program experts 

in VETS and the staff who are funded by the JVSG program in order to respond 

to this question. If confirmed, I would look forward to hearing from Members of the 

Committee on any thoughts they may have as well. 

B. Do you yet have a sense of whether there are important outcomes regarding 

the employer outreach part of JVSG that should be tracked? 

Response. Similar to the previous question, I would want an opportunity to talk 

to the program experts and staff. It is possible that not all outreach necessarily 

leads to employment. I want to make sure that we are able to identify the quality 

and effectiveness of services provided to veterans, not just the quantity. 

170 

Question 7. JVSG is a grant given to the states for them to hire staff directly. 

Do you yet have a sense of how much flexibility state officials should be given to 

decide which agency employs these program staff? 

Response. The effective administration of programs serving veterans will be my 

highest priority and must be the highest priority of states who receive Federal funding to do so. Effective coordination with the state public workforce system is critical 

to achieving the goals of Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act enacted in 

2014, and efforts to transition administration of the JVSG grant program from the 

state workforce agency to a state veterans’ agency would be contrary to Congressional intent. I am open to further dialog with states and Members of the Committee on this issue, if confirmed. 

Question 8. DOL-VETS administers and helps to enforce the Uniformed Services 

Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA), which provides reemployment rights and employment discrimination protections for veterans and members 

of the Guard and Reserves. Currently pending before the House of Representatives 

is a bill, H.R. 2275, Jobs for Veterans Act of 2015, which includes a provision requiring the transfer of the administration of employment and reemployment rights of 

members of the uniformed services, among other VETS responsibilities, to the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

A. Would you please share any current views you have on transferring the administration of USERRA out of VETS? 

Response. As Ranking Member of the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, I had 

conversations with interested parties about this issue. As the Committee knows, in 

its enforcement of USERRA, VETS protects the rights of all uniformed servicemembers to return to their civilian jobs and receive all of their employment benefits 

when they have concluded their tours of duty. It is my understanding that VETS 

works closely with the Labor Department’s Solicitor’s Office and its staff of expert 

employment lawyers when enforcing USERRA. In addition, when USERRA violations implicate Federal contractors and sub-contractors, VETS refers cases to 

OFCCP for possible investigation of VEVRAA violations. VETS’s employment law 

enforcement responsibilities are fully integrated with other employment law enforcement agencies in the Labor Department. The Veterans Affairs Department does not 

have an analogous employment law enforcement capacity or expertise. 

B. How important do you believe it is for VETS to cooperate and coordinate with 

other entities that help enforce USERRA (such as the Office of Special Counsel) and 

do you yet have a sense of what steps you would take to facilitate coordination and 

collaboration? 

Response. If confirmed, I want to make sure that the enforcement of USERRA is 

done effectively and efficiently. I read the recent GAO report which found that DOL 

outperformed the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) in terms of customer satisfaction, 

timeliness, and costs. If Members of the Committee or other enforcement agencies 

have ideas and best practices for VETS to adopt, I would be happy to have those 

conversations. 

Question 9. The White House and the VA started the End Veteran Homelessness 

Initiative in 2010 to end veteran homelessness by the end of 2015. DOL-VETS administers the Homeless Veterans’ Reintegration Program (HVRP) to assist with returning homeless veterans to the workforce. 

A. As the homeless veteran population continues to decline, do you yet have a 

sense of how this may affect the demand for HVRP, and how could HVRP potentially be adapted in the future in response? 

Response. I fully support President Obama’s initiative to end homelessness among 

veterans. It is unacceptable that men and women who wore the uniform are returning without a safe, stable place to call home. In spite of the decline the numbers 

of homeless veterans nationwide, I think we have to continue to set the bar high, 

invest resources and effort, and refuse to scale back on the vision of eliminating 

homelessness among veterans. If and when we get to a point where HVRP might 

need to be adapted, I look forward to working with the Members of the Committee. 

B. Do you yet have a sense of what successful practices developed by HVRP can 

be shared with JVSG or other programs for veterans employment to make them 

more effective? 

Response. The HVRP program is a good example of public-private sector partnerships. Leveraging the resources of the Federal Government with those of state and 

local governments, the business community and nonprofits can often lead to positive 

results. I’ve been able to forge similar partnerships during my time in Congress, and 

I’d like to explore those in my capacity as Assistant Secretary for VETS, if confirmed. 

171 

Question 10. On the completed questionnaire you submitted to the Committee, 

you listed a number of publications you authored that are no longer posted on-line. 

Would you please provide the Committee with a copy of each of those publications? 

Response. Attachments follow. 

SERVING OUR VETERANS


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A CULTURAL VISION FOR MAINE


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MAINE MADE—A BUSINESS & INVESTMENT PLAN TO CAPITALIZE ON MAINE’S

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGES


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MAKING MAINE THE FOOD BASKET FOR NEW ENGLAND


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Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you for your testimony. We are delighted to have you and, Senator King, we appreciate your introduction. Let me begin the round of questioning, 5 minutes each per 

Member, by making public notice of the fact that the Veterans of 

Foreign Wars and the Vietnam Veterans of America both have endorsed your nomination. I think that is a testimony to the service 

you have given to the veterans of America in the House of Representatives and I think that is a high honor to kick off this hearing with. 

Let me ask you a question. In talking about the last portion of 

your remarks, will you commit to me and commit to this Committee, Republican and Democrat alike, that when questions are 

made of your department with responses that are necessary to see 

how the programs of the Department of Labor and the employment 

of veterans are going, to give us your information in a timely manner and that it will be bipartisan and submitted to both sides? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Yes, sir, absolutely. 

Chairman ISAKSON. I noticed in your pre-testimony notes that 

one of the things you want to do is collect more data to be sure to 

monitor the programs of the Labor Department to make sure the 

employment that we hope is taking place is actually taking place. 

What type of information and data are you talking about collecting? 

Mr. MICHAUD. One of the issues I learned a long time ago is 

when you look at statistics and data, you have got to make sure 

that they reflect what is actually happening out there. I have seen 

how data has been misused, particularly when you look at the wait 

time issues in the VA. 

I want to be able to have an opportunity to sit down with the 

VETS staff to find out what data we are collecting. Is it legitimate 

data and what are the real outcomes of that data? I definitely 

would want to work with the VETS staff as well as the Committee 

staff to make sure we are collecting the appropriate data to look 

at how we can improve programs that are currently out there. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Well, that is exactly the answer I was hoping 

you would give, because around Washington and in our jobs, all we 

get is data, but usually in no perspective or with no analysis, and 

sometimes data in and of itself without being analyzed can lead 

you in the wrong direction. I think it is important that we have 

somebody in this particular job that can take the data, analyze it, 

and then interpret it for us; tell us whether or not the programs 

of our country are working or not for our veterans. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Now, you served in the legislature for 20 

years; is that correct? 

Mr. MICHAUD. 22 years in the Maine legislature. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Served in Congress for 12, right? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Correct. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That is 34 years of service to the Government. Is that correct? 

Mr. MICHAUD. That is correct. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Why would you accept another responsibility 

like this after 34 successful years of public service? 

231 

Mr. MICHAUD. Well, Senator, actually I thought I was going to 

go home and actually planned to build my log cabin on the Penobscot River. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That is why I asked the question. 

Mr. MICHAUD. It is a great opportunity. I know there have been 

concerns in the past with DOL-VETS; that is an issue. But, I am 

committed to serving our veterans and their families. This is a 

great opportunity, having had the opportunity to sit on that side 

of the table, to now be on this side of the table, to work collaboratively with Members of Congress on both sides, work with our 

veteran service organizations, and really focus on how we can move 

the programs that the DOL-VETS currently operate; how can we 

improve on those programs, how can we reach out with other organizations and stakeholders to really move forward. 

I am very committed, having seen our servicemembers in hospitals, overseas, my trips to Iraq and Afghanistan. We have done 

a lot, but we can do a lot more. I am looking forward, if confirmed, 

to bring in an outside pair of eyes from the inside and really moving DOL-VETS forward in a very positive direction. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Your 12 years of experience on the House 

Veterans’ Affairs Committee matched with that commitment to 

service is going to make sure that you do a great job for the Department of Labor. We appreciate your willingness to accept that 

responsibility. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Blumenthal. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if 

you would comment and, I hope, commit to support the Work Opportunity Tax Credit Act that I mentioned earlier. 

Mr. MICHAUD. I would have to look at that Act, Senator. I am 

committed to looking at it in order to see what we can do to help 

our veterans get into jobs. When small and medium-sized employers needed help, I supported legislation in the past. 

When you look at the tax credit, I think we have to reach out 

to small businesses to find out where we can actually improve on 

that. One of the areas I have learned about is businesses; when 

they make their decisions they need predictability and stability; 

anything we can do at this end to provide that predictability and 

stability so they can hire more veterans I will definitely work with 

you and this Committee to move forward in that direction, even if 

it is outside of DOL-VETS’ jurisdiction, working collaboratively 

with other Federal agencies. I would be willing to do that, Senator. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. What would you do to increase employment opportunities for women in transitioning back to civilian life? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I think the first thing that we should do is to try 

to get women to actually realize that they are veterans, which is 

one of the areas that concerns me, not only with our female veteran 

population, but also the male veteran population. It depends on 

how you ask the question. 

Judge Reischolt, when I talked to him, on the Veterans’ Court, 

he said if you ask an audience if they are veterans, you would have 

hands go up. If you change the question, how many served in the 

Armed Forces, more hands will go up. So, I think we have to identify and get the female veterans to identify themselves as veterans 

232 

and really work hard to get them into the training that they might 

need. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Are there specific programs necessary for 

women or do you think existing programs can be changed? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I have not looked at that closely, but we are willing to work with the Committee to look at, number 1, the existing 

programs that are currently there. Additionally, are there ways 

that we can tweak what programs that are currently there to actually help our female veteran population. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I would appreciate, within a reasonable 

time of your taking over this job, that you give us a report on a 

strategy for enhancing employment of women veterans. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Yes, Senator. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Then you can better answer the question 

that I have put to you. I appreciate your answer here. 

As you know, there are growing numbers and increasing quality 

of partnerships between various organizations that help veterans 

gain employment. 

I would give you one example. In my own State, Newman’s Own 

Foundation is in an active partnership with The Mission Continues, a really excellent organization. As a matter of fact, one of 

my sons has worked for them. Also, the Farmer Veteran Coalition, 

both of them well respected organizations that empower veterans. 

That kind of collaboration should be encouraged. Would you agree? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Absolutely. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. What can the Department of Veterans Affairs do to encourage it? 

Mr. MICHAUD. One of the things—when I talked about the two 

projects in Maine, they were a collaborative efforts utilizing nonprofit, public/private sector. I think we have to do a better job. 

When you look collaboratively at how can we get veterans into jobs, 

I would be willing to meet with those organizations, but also to 

reach out to some organizations that I do not believe that DOLVETS has reached out to in the past such as the National Council 

of State Legislators. 

Get State legislators involved because they have a reach in their 

own respective districts back in their home States. I am all for collaboration, thinking outside the box, and how can we put our collective thoughts together into doing a better job than what we are 

currently doing now. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you. Regarding the Transition Assistance Program, the TAP program, I know you are familiar with 

it and I know you probably heard a good deal about it, both as a 

member of the Congress and before that as a member of the State 

legislature in Maine. Do you have any ideas for improving that 

program? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I think when you look at the TAP program, it is 

the cornerstone of one of the successes that DOL has operated 

without partners in the VA and DOD. I think we have got to continue work with our partners in that area to make sure that they 

have the best curriculum available and continue to always look 

ahead. I am one that is not to stay stagnant, not only here where 

we are today, but where will we be 5 years, 10 years, 20 years 

down the road. There have been some concerns, I know, with TAP. 

233 

I will definitely work with the VSOs and other stakeholders to hear 

their concerns and try to address their concerns. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you very much. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Rounds. 

HON. MIKE ROUNDS, U.S. SENATOR FROM SOUTH DAKOTA 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, thank you for 

your willingness to serve once again. South Dakota is home to 

probably about 70,000 veterans, one of the highest rates of veterans per capita of any State in the Nation. Helping these men and 

women find opportunities in which they can use their military 

skills and training as they transition into a civilian life is something the VA has been working on. But, I suspect that there is 

more that can be done and there are more ideas out there on how 

to do it not only in South Dakota, but throughout the Nation. 

I am wondering if you could share with us, now that you have 

looked at this, you have considered the position that you are applying for in front of us, it seems that it would be very difficult to 

have had this amount of time without having thought ahead to say, 

Look, I want to make a difference, I want to see things different, 

I want things to get better. 

Can you share with us a little bit about your insight and your 

thoughts about how you can make a difference with regard to new 

initiatives, ideas that you have got to literally allow these veterans 

or these members of the military to step into civilian life and to be 

employed on perhaps a higher rate than they are today? Can you 

give us an insight? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you very much, Senator, for that question. 

Yes. Since I have been nominated, I really appreciate how quickly 

the hearing has moved forward. I would want to have an opportunity to sit down and talk with DOL-VETS staff, which I have not 

had that opportunity as I have not been confirmed. 

I want to listen to them. I want to reach out to the veteran service organizations, which I have got a very good working relationship, have worked with them for my last 12 years in Congress, and 

I can tell you they are not bashful about letting me know where 

they think certain areas and policies should be moving. I definitely 

would want to sit down and work with them more specifically 

about DOL-VETS and where we can move forward. 

A lot of it is to make sure that we continue to work on education, 

getting the word out what DOL-VETS has done, what we should 

be doing to actually improve it. If you look at the overall unemployment rate, it has been going down. The homelessness among our 

veterans’ population has been going down. 

All the numbers are constantly going in the right direction, but 

I am not satisfied until we keep pushing that number further and 

further down, which means we are going to have to look at what 

we have not done that we should be doing, particularly if you are 

from a rural State. Working not only the workforce investment 

agencies nationally and then in respective States, but reaching out 

to State legislators and the National Council of State Legislature 

to really get them more involved in DOL-VETS and what they can 

234 

be doing at the State level to help our soldiers and veterans get 

into job employment. 

Small businesses. If you look at small businesses, they account 

for a big portion of the workforce here in the United States. We 

need to do what we can to help small and medium-sized businesses 

so that they can plan ahead, whether or not it is legislation that 

Senator Blumenthal had talked about or something else that we 

should be looking at. 

I definitely will be doing a lot of reaching out, looking at what 

has worked, what has not worked, where can we improve on the 

programs we currently have. 

Senator ROUNDS. One of those areas that I would suggest you 

take a look at—South Dakota is a good example. We have got a lot 

of tribal veterans that struggle to find jobs on the reservation. 

Would you consider and would you look carefully at the employment initiatives or new employment initiatives, or at least to consider whether or not the employment initiatives that might be 

available right now, whether or not they are working for tribal veterans both on and off the reservations? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Yes, I definitely would be willing to look at that 

and work with you, Senator, to see how we can improve on that 

and where we should be going. 

Senator ROUNDS. OK. I have had a few issues with homeless veterans, the veterans’ center in Sioux Falls in particular. I think it 

is important that we help and then employ our veterans that need 

it the most. Do you have any initiatives or ideas to get homeless 

veterans employed long-term? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I think when you look at homeless veterans—and 

that was one of the projects I mentioned in my opening remarks— 

where I was able to convince the Secretary to use some land at the 

VA facility to build cabins in the woods. Here is an area where you 

can get veterans together and then you will be able to bring the 

resources there to them to actually help them get the employment 

skills that they need. 

In thinking outside the box, over my tenure in Congress, I have 

always tried to find different ways of looking at different things, 

and I will do that not only with the homeless veterans, but our female veteran population, and other areas within the Department 

of Labor. 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you. 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Rounds. 

Senator Brown. 

HON. SHERROD BROWN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OHIO 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mike, nice to see you 

again. Thank you for your public service for so many years and the 

work you did in the House, especially on trade issues and so much 

else for workers. 

I have been on this Committee since my first day in the Senate 

in 2007 and what most struck me in those early days was the disconnect between the Department of Defense and the VA; the evidence was sort of indicative that Defense officials, from the comVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00238 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
235 

manding officer to the Secretary of Defense, did not have all that 

much concern for these men and women once they left the service. 

They would return to their communities. In those States like 

mine where there is a veterans service officer and a veteran service 

office, they might know of the soldiers’, now veterans’, existence. 

The local VA, the local veterans’ hospital in Chillicothe or Cleveland or Cincinnati would likely not know of them, nor would the 

CBOC, the community-based outpatient clinic necessarily know of 

them when they return. They only knew if the veteran sort of 

checked into the VA and the VA often did not have any medical 

records even though they had had medical records in the service. 

I think that with General Shinseki’s time as Secretary and now 

with Secretary McDonald’s time, I think we are doing better. There 

is more interface between DOD and VA so that when a soldier is 

home from Iraq on leave, at least the local VA may have his medical records. I think we still have a long way to go there. 

So, my question with that too-long preface is, how do you reach 

those soldiers and sailors and airmen and women and Marines that 

have come home, that are no longer part of the armed services, 

they are now back in Portland, ME, or Toledo, OH. They have not 

really checked into the VA so the VA, even if they have records, 

do not necessarily know he is back in or she is back in Swanton, 

OH. 

How do you reach people like that that have not sort of integrated themselves, shown themselves back in Ohio or West Virginia or Hawaii or South Dakota? How do you find them so when 

they are unemployed or are looking for a better job skills or want 

to take what they have learned as a medic in Iraq and now want 

to come back and be an EMT and certified in Ohio? How do we 

work that through so those veterans can be found and can be 

helped? I mean, what is your role in that, working, I assume, with 

the VA in your role at DOL? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Actually, it is a combination of several different 

things, Senator. I mean, you hit the nail on the head when you 

look at whether it is Department of Defense or the Department of 

Veterans Administration. They have got to give directives to agencies underneath them that they want this to be a top priority, trying to get veterans into jobs, and do whatever they can to break 

down the stove pipes to work across departmental lines and within 

the Department to provide the knowledge of DOL-VETS and to 

ask, how do we identify the veterans once they come back home, 

particularly in a rural State. 

One of the advantages I have is that over my 12 years in Congress, really, is the ability to work with staff at the Department of 

Veterans Affairs. I know Secretary McDonald is doing a great job. 

He worked with the Department of Defense to give us the information that we need to help track this. A lot of this is going to have 

to be voluntary, as well. 

When you look at it, particularly in the rural areas, an agency 

I would like to like to reach to and work closer with is Health and 

Human Services, as well. If you have a veteran that might be 

signed up for Medicaid or Medicare, if we can identify them on a 

form that they are a veteran, that information could be given to 

DOL-VETS so we can help them. 

236 

Senator BROWN. Is that done now, to your knowledge? Somebody 

comes home, served in Europe, they come back to Cleveland or to 

Portland and they go file for food stamps or they go file for Medicaid—does the VA or DOL find out about that person’s existence? 

Mr. MICHAUD. To my knowledge, no, it is not set up. That is 

something that I definitely would like to look at, as well as education. Yes, DOL-VETS has done a good job working with a lot of 

employers, but when you look at the human resource personnel in 

those companies, they change. It is a constant type of education 

that we have to do to try to educate repeatedly of what DOL-VETS 

does. 

Senator BROWN. I would like to work with you in doing that better because we clearly have not in the past. One note of caution. 

I know a good bit about your State from serving with you, discussions, and other things. I know you come from a rural State. You 

twice in that answer said particularly in rural areas. 

I am not sure that it is worse in rural areas. It is probably worse 

in Appalachia, OH, than it is in more agricultural, western Ohio, 

but I am not sure it is worse in authorities locating the returning 

veteran. I am not sure it is worse in rural America than it is urban 

America. 

I want to caution you that I kind of know where you start politically and that is fine, but this wonderful country, these problems, 

I think, are not much different understanding rural services. They 

are always ‘‘more remote’’ by definition, but there are all kinds of 

holes in the system. So, thank you. 

Mr. MICHAUD. No, absolutely. I will look holistically on how to 

address these problems. 

Senator BROWN. I know that. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Moran. 

HON. JERRY MORAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS 

Senator MORAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Congressman Michaud, nice to see you again. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Likewise. 

Senator MORAN. Thank you for the number of times we have 

worked together on veterans’ issues in the House. Perhaps a bit 

contrary to what Senator Brown was suggesting, I wanted to make 

sure you remain committed to veterans in rural America, and I 

particularly appreciate that you and I teamed up on ARCH, a program designed to create a pilot program to try to get veterans to 

be able to access health care services with home town physicians 

and hometown hospitals. 

I know that you are politically adept enough to answer my question that yes, you care about veterans and understand rural America, but I am not worried about how you would answer that question, I mean, because you would answer it because you do. So, I 

am grateful for that kind of person who understands the places 

that I come from and represent in the Department of Labor. 

I would point out to you that one of the things that we are working on is expanding the opportunity of the G.I. Bill of Rights for 

purposes of entrepreneurship, the ability of a veteran to be in a 

business, to start a business. It is an SBA program. 

237 

I do not know that your paths will cross with this issue, but it 

is another opportunity that I want to make sure you are aware of, 

that while we talk about education, training, and work force training, there are veterans who have the ability and the desire to be 

an entrepreneur, to start a business. I actually visited with Secretary Perez about these issues and would welcome your input, 

support, and consideration over time in this position as we try to 

figure out ways to help a veteran begin a business, as compared 

to going to school. 

Then I would urge you, in your position as you come into contact 

with the Department of Veterans Affairs, to make certain that we 

work hard to meet the needs of veterans in the places that we find 

them and to encourage the Department of Veterans Affairs to deal 

on an ongoing basis with information to Members of Congress. 

One of the advantages that comes from being a Member of Congress to serving in an Administration is an understanding of the 

role that Members of Congress play, certainly in appropriations 

and oversight, in constituent casework and service. I hope that you 

would you use your position at the Department of Labor, but also 

within the Department of Veterans Affairs, to encourage that kind 

of cooperative relationship in which we have information that can 

be helpful to you and to your colleagues, both at the Department 

of Labor and the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

So, Mr. Michaud, I simply am pleased to see you again. I appreciate the work that we have encountered. Our paths have crossed 

so often in the past and I wish you well in the new position. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you very much, Senator. I look forward to 

continue working with you on issues that affect our veterans, from 

this side of the table, although it feels comfortable on that side as 

well. I can see it from both sides now, but look forward to working 

with you on the issues. 

Senator MORAN. Incidentally, when you quoted President Kennedy, it sounded a lot more like President Kennedy than when I 

do. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Hirono followed by Senator Manchin 

followed by Senator Boozman. 

HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO, U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is great to see 

you, Mike. I had the privilege of working with our nominee for 6 

years in the U.S. House and in that time I certainly watched a person with great heart and a singular commitment to helping the 

people of this country and certainly of our States. Thank you very 

much for wanting to get back in the saddle again. 

I do share Senator Blumenthal’s concern about a special emphasis on helping women veterans because the data shows that they 

have lower employment and under-employment rate than the male 

veterans. I would also be very interested in your thoughts should 

you become confirmed, which you will be. 

In addition, when we talk about data and the stock that you 

place in making sure that you really understand where the veterans are, the facts show that the unemployment rate is higher for 

the post-9/11 veterans than for the other veterans. I would also ask 

you, unless you already have some thoughts about how you would 

238 

focus on the post-9/11 veterans and how you can particularly help 

them with their employment issues. 

I also appreciated the fact that you understand that the stovepiping of the various departments, how important it is for a wholeof-Government approach to help our veterans. For example, HUD 

has their voucher program to help with vouchers for housing for 

veterans and, of course, the more closely the DOD and VA can 

work to enable a better transition, that is great. 

Are you aware of any Department of Labor programs that are 

particularly working with regard to veterans that you would seek 

to expand should you be confirmed? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you very much. I definitely would want to, 

if confirmed, once I am over at the DOL-VETS, look at all the programs that they have and really take an outside view of whether 

or not they are working and how can we improve on what they 

have been doing, then work with this Committee to find ways 

where we can actually improve on those particular programs. 

Having said that, Senator, I do not have any plan that we are 

going to change these programs a certain way. I want to have time 

to really look at what is happening and work with this Committee 

to find where we can improve on that. 

I do have ideas on how we can do a better job working with our 

stakeholders, working more collaboratively with other departments 

to make sure that we are all pushing in the same direction and 

reaching out to stakeholders, that we might not have done a good 

job in the past. I will be working with you to do what we can to 

address the concerns that you might have. 

Senator HIRONO. Of course, working collaboratively with other 

departments to pool resources. I think this is an area that Senator 

Brown touched upon, is that during active service, our servicemembers learn a lot of skills and we need to translate those skills in 

ways that employers can understand, that those skill sets that 

were obtained during service can apply to their workplaces. 

There have been discussions about how we can better define and 

describe the kind of experiences that our active servicemembers 

have that could be very useful in the private sector. So, I hope that 

that will be a continuing effort on your part in a very practical 

way. 

Mr. MICHAUD. It definitely will, Senator. When you look at the 

skill sets that our military men and women are bringing back, they 

are a key. You also look at each day, particularly if those skill sets 

require getting a certification or licensing, how can we make that 

process operate more efficiently and effectively, and that will be 

one of the areas I will be focusing on, certification and licensing. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Boozman. 

HON. JOHN BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS 

Senator BOOZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 

Senator Manchin, for letting me jump in. I simply wanted to come 

in and say how much—that I do support you. I enjoyed so much 

working with Mr. Michaud in the House for many, many years. 

Again, you have got my 100 percent support and I give that for a 

couple different reasons. 

239 

First of all, no one was more active on the Committee than you, 

again, working for veterans. The other thing was that no one 

worked across party lines any more than you did, because the emphasis was always, you know—this is so true in this Committee 

and the House Committee—the emphasis is always on veterans. 

I appreciate your hard work and look forward to working with 

you in the future. Again, I am just excited that we have got somebody so capable and willing to do this. It is a big job and there are 

lots of challenges out there, but I do not think anybody is more capable than you. Thank you very much. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you very much, Senator, appreciate it. I 

look forward to working with you as well. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Manchin. 

HON. JOE MANCHIN III, U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 

Mr. Michaud, for your service and continued willingness to serve. 

First of all, what would you consider the greatest challenge to finding veterans jobs? I mean, from what you know and you have been 

involved with what is the greatest challenge vets are facing right 

now? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I think, first of all, I might say that if you look 

at the numbers, we are going in the right direction. The unemployment numbers are constantly going down, which is great. I think 

we have got to continue to tell the good story of what DOL-VETS 

is currently doing with employers around the country, reaching out 

to small and medium-sized businesses as well as talking to them 

about the benefits of hiring a veteran, what they bring to the table. 

It is that constant reaching out, I think, is a problem that we 

have got to continue to address. In thinking outside the box, how 

can we get the agencies working more collaboratively together? 

They have done a pretty good job, but there is always more work 

that can be done. 

Senator MANCHIN. There are a couple of things. As far as you 

were talking about, you were going to be working on making sure 

they had their certifications and classifications and things of this 

sort. If a person in the military has skills equivalent to a CDL, 

heavy equipment, can you fast track or can you make sure the Department of Labor and the civilian setting will recognize that so 

they do not have to go through the whole training process again, 

which is time-consuming and it hurts their job possibilities? 

The things that they are trained for in the military basically 

should be certifiably recognized when they go into the private sector, and we find that there is a disconnect there. 

Mr. MICHAUD. There is a disconnect. That is the reason why I 

brought up that we definitely have to do more work to try to match 

up the skill set that they attained while they were in the military, 

and determine once they leave the military what does that matchup look like. 

We also have to deal with individual States when you look at certification and licensing, and that is an area, I think, we can do a 

better job in as far as reaching out to the work force agencies within those respective States and the national associations and also 

the National Council of State Legislators as well, because legislaVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00243 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
240 

tors are very interested in their State policies and we can bring 

them on board to help us. 

Senator MANCHIN. Also, improve information sharing. Basically, 

a person is going to be discharged, they are electing to leave. Have 

you looked at the different ways that we are able to link them up 

with an employer that is looking for an employee that has their 

skill sets? We find out that disconnect. 

We have tried everything humanly possible. I started the I Hire 

A Vet campaign with Mark Kirk from Illinois. We also started Jobs 

Caucus, Veterans Jobs Caucus. We find out everyone is trying to 

do all these things, but there is no single portal. Basically, if I am 

in the military and I am about ready to discharge, I can say I want 

to work in northeast, southeast, midwest, whatever, and I would 

like to work with a company needing the skill sets that I have. 

Then be able to have that employer get on that same Web site 

and say, Wait a minute, we might want to talk to this person. That 

is what we are trying to do and we are having a hard time at the 

Department of Labor and with all the different portals that are 

available just synching them up. You all might be able to do it. 

Mr. MICHAUD. That is something I definitely would like, if confirmed, to work with you, Senator, on how we can do that. 

Senator MANCHIN. Next, what is your highest-possibility—your 

length of time here will not be that long. We hope it would be, but 

it might not be because we have a change coming, however that 

change goes. So, if you have a short tenure, let us say 16 months 

or so, what is your highest priority to get something accomplished 

in that period of time? 

Because I know we have asked you a lot of good questions here 

and there are a lot of things that need to be done, but if you hone 

in on one thing, what would you do? 

Mr. MICHAUD. First of all, Senator, I would not be looking at this 

as a short timeframe. I am looking at, if confirmed by the Senate, 

how could we make these programs not only short-term, but longterm, start setting the seed. Because yes, this is an appointed position, but we have a lot of career dedicated individuals at DOLVETS that will be there long after I am gone. We want to set that 

seed so that they can move forward continuing doing the job in 

areas that we might be able to improve during the short time that 

I am there at the Department of Labor. 

Senator MANCHIN. Any one thing that piques your interest? I 

mean, one thing that really gets you that you like there? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Actually, there are several things. I mentioned 

certification and licensing. That is definitely one area. Then looking 

at how to reach out to a female veteran population, get them in 

jobs; homelessness, to continue trying to get that number down. 

Senator MANCHIN. Female population based on employment? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Yes, correct. 

Senator MANCHIN. Correct? 

Mr. MICHAUD. Yes. Additionally, how could we get more individuals or organizations involved in realizing what DOL-VETS does to 

help get veterans into jobs. So, it is an ongoing education process 

that I will work day and night to continue doing whatever I can 

to make sure we get the message out there. On the good work that 

241 

has been done, how can we improve in that regard. Thank you, 

Senator. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Sullivan. 

HON. DAN SULLIVAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Congressman 

Michaud. I want to thank you for your service and your strong interest in this important job. I also want to compliment Senator 

Manchin before he heads out the door there. I mean, those are a 

great series of questions and, as a matter of fact, I think that is 

exactly what we should be focusing on: all these different portals; 

all these different ways in which we can bring together what are 

clearly some of the most qualified employable Americans. 

I mean, we are doing companies and other organizations a service to link up these young men and women who are getting out of 

the service or have served and need employment. 

Let me ask you kind of a more specific question. I certainly 

would want to work with you, Senator Manchin, and others on how 

we streamline that, because everybody thinks that is a good idea, 

but as Senator Manchin mentioned, it does not always work and 

it is very bureaucratic. One issue—in some ways I hope does not 

happen, but it looks like it might be on the horizon though I think 

a lot of us are trying to work to reverse it, but—the Army right 

now has said they are going to cut 40,000 troops, 40,000 troops. I 

think if you look at the strategic situation right now for the United 

States globally, that is a strategic mistake which, hopefully, we can 

reverse. 

A number of those troops are actually scheduled to be cut in 

Alaska, which again, I think is a bad idea, a very bad idea for the 

country, for our defense, for our veterans. But are there plans? Do 

you know if the VA talks to the Department of Defense and say, 

Hey, we just announced a 40,000-troop cut reduction in just the 

Army? Over to you, VA, to take care of these young men and 

women. 

I mean, what are we doing to prepare if these kind of troop cuts 

go forward, which again, I am going to do everything in my power 

on the Armed Services Committee to make sure they do not because I think it is bad for the country. So, what is the preparation 

from the VA side and is there any kind of hand off or discussion 

between the VA and DOD on these kind of issues? 

Mr. MICHAUD. My primary focus will be in the Department of 

Labor VETS—is in the Department of Labor. But when you look 

at the VA, DOD, and DOL-VETS, what we are doing—I do know 

that the numbers that the Department of Labor VETS program we 

are looking at is on that draw-down and that workforce, should 

they change, you know, it changes. 

One thing that—and you are absolutely right, what Senator 

Manchin talked about, you know, working across departments; you 

have got to break down the silos that are currently out there, 

which is difficult at times to do. 

A good example is the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Secretary 

McDonald. When he got nominated he asked me what should he 

look at to break down those silos and communicate better among 

the different agencies within the VA. I brought forward a plan to 

242 

actually reorganize the whole Department, an out-like plan, and 

because of what happened in Phoenix, AZ, the Secretary looked at 

that and he is actually moving forward in reorganizing the Department of Veterans Affairs, which I am very appreciative about. 

When you look at your specific question, DOD, the draw-down, 

VA, what they have got to do to try to take care of the soldiers that 

will be going into the VA, what DOL will be doing as far as taking 

care of the soldiers is trying to get them into jobs. We have to start 

planning not only short-term but long-term. 

One of my goals, if I am confirmed by the Senate, is to have a 

short-term plan and a long-term plan to start addressing some of 

these situations and to take into consideration some things that are 

beyond our control, if the economy gets worse, you know, what are 

we going to have to do. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Good. Let me turn to an issue that I am sure 

is of interest to you given that you and I are both from rural 

States. Alaska is 20 times larger than Maine, so it is a little bit 

of a different scale. What are we doing—what would you say we 

need to do in terms of a focus to take care of our vets that are in 

rural or even remote areas? 

Mr. MICHAUD. I think we have to reach out to the veterans to 

let them know what benefits are currently out there and part of 

that gets—— 

Senator SULLIVAN. How do you do that? I mean, it is one thing 

to do it in a city. It is another thing in a small town or small community or, in the case of Alaska, very remote communities that are 

not connected by roads or anything like that. 

Mr. MICHAUD. By working with the stakeholders, as I mentioned 

earlier, by working closely with the National Council of State Legislators. We have got legislators all over and they always enjoy 

doing constituent work for their constituents. Let them know what 

DOL-VETS is doing and have them help get the word out there, 

reaching out to small and medium-size employers, focusing on the 

advantage of hiring a veteran, and have them help get the word 

out there. 

In working with other agencies that might be able to help DOLVETS identify the veterans that are out there. That is an area 

where we have to do a better job, is how do we identify these veterans that are currently out there to let them know what services 

are available. 

And the veteran service organizations, they do a great job; to 

work closely with them to bring them on board to help spread that 

word. It is a lot about communication, access to information, and 

making it readily available and understandable so that our veterans know what is therefor them. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you. 

Mr. MICHAUD. Thank you. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. Thank you, 

Mr. Michaud, for your willingness to serve the country, for your 

forthrightness in the testimony today. As I indicated at the beginning of the meeting, we will hold the record open only through 

Monday of next week if anybody has any additional questions or 

information. I will move toward a mark-up pending no objections 

243 

coming up before next Tuesday, so we will try and get you in a position where confirmation can take place as early as possible. 

Again, we thank you for your service to the country, to the veterans of the United States of America. 

Mr. MICHAUD. I would like to thank you, Senator, and the Committee for having this hearing and look forward to working with 

you, if confirmed. Thank you very much. 

Chairman ISAKSON. As do we. The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned at 3:34 p.m.] 

RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. THOM TILLIS TO MI- CHAEL H. MICHAUD, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR FOR VET- ERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING

Question 1. Mr. Michaud, in the 112th Congress, you voted for H.R. 4072, a bill 

that would have transferred the programs under the Department of Labor’s Veterans’ Employment and Training Service (DOL-VETS) to the Department of Veterans’ Affairs. What prompted you to change your position on this issue? 

Response. While a member of the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee, I had an 

opportunity to meet with a number of veterans’ service organizations who strongly 

believed that consolidating VETS into the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (VA) 

would improve employment services for veterans. Since that time, however, I’ve 

seen the efforts the Department of Labor has made to increase coordination with 

their partners at the Department of Defense and the VA; to redesign the Transition 

Assistance Program to ensure that it remains relevant for all servicemembers; and 

maximizing the employment and training opportunities developed though the Department’s relationship with State Workforce Agencies. 

In addition, while the VA is primarily a benefits agency, and that can include educational benefits, the Department of Labor has the expertise and nationwide infrastructure to best provide skills training and employment opportunities for anyone 

who needs them, including veterans. The coordinated actions and long term collaborative relationships between VETS and other agencies within DOL create synergy 

through the integration of all department resources and expertise on veteran employment. The Department’s connection with the state workforce agencies in nearly 

2,500 AJCs across the Nation helps to facilitate veteran employment with large national employers as well as small and medium sized businesses. 

VETS is also a key partner in the implementation of the Workforce Innovation 

and Opportunity Act (WIOA), which requires states to unify workforce and education programs in their planning and service delivery. As this new model is rolled 

out nationwide, DOL has put veterans first by emphasizing the continuation of priority of service for veterans and redefining eligibility in programs, like dislocated 

workers, to ensure transitioning servicemembers and their spouses have all the resources they need to enter and advance in the workforce. 

Given the improvements made by VETS, the expertise of the Department, and the 

critical moment in the implementation of WIOA we are in, removing VETS’ programs from this integrated network would, in my opinion, diminish the economic 

outcomes for our transitioning servicemembers and veterans. If confirmed, I will be 

committed to ensuring that our transitioning servicemembers and veterans continue 

to have the resources and expertise to assist and prepare them to obtain meaningful 

careers, maximize their employment opportunities and protect their employment 

rights. 

Question 2. In March 2015, Wisconsin attempted to transfer administration of the 

state Jobs for Veterans State Grants (JVSG) program from the Wisconsin Department of Labor to the Wisconsin Department of Veterans’ Affairs. DOL-VETS denied 

Wisconsin’s request. A similar dispute remains unresolved between Texas and DOLVETS, with Texas advocating for more discretion given to the states while DOLVETS advocates to keep the program under the authority of state labor agencies. 

Do you believe it should be up to the states or DOL-VETS to decide who has jurisdiction over the JVSG program? 

Response. Congress appropriately conditioned each state’s receipt of Jobs for Veterans State Grants on a number of requirements, including the requirement that 

the Disabled Veterans’ Outreach Program and Local Veterans’ Employment Representatives program be integrated into the employment service delivery systems in 

the State. Congress over time through the VOW to Hire Heroes Act and through 

WIOA has made additional statutory changes designed to improve the delivery of 

workforce development services to veterans. The changes made by these important 

244 

statutes mean that the Department needs to continue to work closely with state and 

local workforce staff to ensure that both are implemented successfully. While I understand that we should not have a one-size-fits all approach to serving veterans, 

if confirmed, it will be my responsibility to ensure that VETS meets its statutory 

obligations and to ensure that veterans receive the high-quality workforce development services. 

Question 3. In Fiscal Year 2014, DOL-VETS resolved 1,140 Uniformed Services 

Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA) cases. By what date will you 

release a plan to improve adherence to USERRA’s employment protections? 

Response. I understand that in accordance with 38 U.S.C. § 4332(a), the Department is required to issue a report each year to Congress that includes recommendations for administrative or legislative action that the Secretary of Labor, Attorney 

General, or Special Counsel considers necessary for the effective implementation of 

USERRA. The most recent report was issued in July 2014, and if confirmed, I plan 

to continue to meet this reporting requirement. 

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A P P E N D I X 


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NOMINATION OF MICHAEL J. MISSAL TO BE 

INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 

VETERANS AFFAIRS 

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m., in room 

418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Johnny Isakson, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Isakson, Boozman, Cassidy, Rounds, Sullivan, 

Blumenthal, Brown, Tester, and Manchin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHNNY ISAKSON, CHAIRMAN, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA 

Chairman ISAKSON. The hearing of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs 

Committee will come to order. We have Members that are on the 

way—in fact, one arriving as we speak. Thank you, Governor 

Rounds. We are glad to have you. 

The purpose of today’s meeting is to have a hearing with the 

nominee for the Inspector General position for the Veterans Administration, Mr. Michael Missal, whom I have had the privilege of 

meeting with previously in my office. I am glad he is here to testify 

today. I hope when he does testify, he will introduce his family 

members, all of whom are also here. We are glad to have you here 

and appreciate your willingness to serve and respect the nomination you received from the President. 

Of all the confirmation hearings that I am involved in this year, 

I know of none more important than this one. Quite frankly, a lot 

of times I think members of the Senate—certainly not Senator 

Blumenthal or myself, but some members of the Senate take these 

for granted. But, in this case, we have a very serious problem at 

the Veterans Administration. We basically have an organization 

which is the second largest agency in the Federal Government, an 

organization that has had employees indicted at the Charlie Norwood VA in Augusta, GA; administrators of hospitals fired for 

cause in Phoenix, AZ; $1,382,758,000 cost overruns at a hospital 

that is 13 years late in being built; difficulties of management from 

one to another; delayed benefits to our veterans; and, quite frankly, 

an organization whose management has been spotty at best. 

To the credit of Secretary McDonald, who is the new Secretary 

of the VA, he is trying hard, and Sloan Gibson, his Chief Deputy, 

is doing the same, yet, we have a long way to go. The Inspector 

250 

General’s position probably is more important in this agency than 

any other single agency in the Federal Government, because we 

have to have the eyes and ears of the American taxpayer looking 

over the shoulder of the Administration of the VA to see to it that 

our veterans get the benefits and the services they deserve and we 

have accountability for the American people. 

Last Wednesday, on Veterans Day, I appeared on Fox Television 

in New York trying to talk about the things our Committee, Democrats and Republicans alike, have done for our veterans and to 

mark that particular holiday. As I was sitting in the green room 

practicing what I was going to say to try to take 3 minutes to say 

some good things about what we have done for our veterans, the 

announcement came out that the VA had paid $140 million in bonuses to Veterans’ employees on last year’s service, a year in which 

we had closed hospitals, had cost overruns, and a year in which we 

had had people lose their benefits. So, it struck the cause to me as 

to why this hearing is so important today, because as the American 

people think the VA is broken, while we are trying to fix it and we 

are making improvements, we have not crossed the Rubicon yet to 

be looking in the positive direction of the future. I think the IG’s 

Office can help us do that by rooting out the problems that are left, 

giving us the recommendations to solve them, and making the tenacious bulldog-type statements that you have to make to get the 

attention of the management of the Veterans Administration. 

There is no more important confirmation hearing to me in the 

U.S. Senate today, or any day, than what we consider for the VA 

today. We welcome you, Mr. Missal, and thank you for being here. 

Thank you for your willingness to consider it. I am glad we have 

got Members here to ask the questions they will ask, and I am 

happy to turn it over to the Ranking Member from Connecticut, a 

former Attorney General, like Richard Thornburgh—who we are 

delighted, by the way, is in the audience today. The Ranking Member from Connecticut, Senator Blumenthal. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, 

RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I want to join in 

welcoming Attorney General Thornburgh. Welcome, General 

Thornburgh, to a place where you have been many times before on 

Capitol Hill, and welcome to your family, Mr. Missal. 

I want to just say by way of opening remarks that we were all 

deeply troubled by the announcement of these $140-plus million in 

bonuses. Bonuses for bad actors are a disservice to the many hardworking, honest VA employees who do their jobs every day with 

distinction for the veterans of America. These bonuses in some 

cases seem hugely unjustified, and I hope that action will be taken 

to prevent such unwarranted rewards in the future so that we can 

reward the ones who really deserve bonuses. 

Your position is one that has been very much on my mind since 

the time that I came to the U.S. Senate, and before, because as Attorney General, a law enforcement officer in the State of Connecticut, I am very much aware of the importance of thorough, aggressive investigation and fact finding as a preventive, deterrent, 

and punitive tool when needed. 

251 

The Office of Inspector General for too long has been held by an 

acting individual. I pushed that acting individual in the wake of 

some of the disclosures about Arizona and the waiting lists, the 

cooked books, and fraudulent recordkeeping to enlist the Department of Justice in his efforts. That request was resisted for too 

long. 

The kinds of aggressive and proactive measures from this Office 

of Inspector General I hope will be forthcoming when you are in 

this position. In just a moment, I am going to introduce you, with 

the Chairman’s permission, but I just want to say that your taking 

over this job should be a part of not only stronger law enforcement 

within the VA, but also a change in culture, because deterrence 

and preventive action are really what is needed here to regain the 

trust of Congress and the American people. Aggressive and proactive action from the Inspector General are very important. 

Timely access to care remains a significant challenge. The VA’s 

most recent wait time numbers indicate nearly half a million veterans still cannot access health care within 30 days. That is unacceptable. Last Saturday, the VA had a stand-down to address the 

inexcusably high number of records the VA had identified as needing urgent care, and they could not identify whether or not an appointment had been made. 

I am glad that the VA is taking this kind of action, but, again, 

the Inspector General should have a role in the fact-finding and investigative efforts that are related to this kind of stand-down. 

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I am going to introduce the 

nominee—— 

Chairman ISAKSON. Without objection. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [continuing]. Since he is from Connecticut, 

a son of Bristol, CT, here with his wife, Deborah, who is from 

Westport, CT, nearer to my hometown; and with his son, Jordan, 

who is a senior at Washington and Lee. Congratulations on successfully persuading your son to be here in the midst of his senior 

year. [Laughter.] 

As a father of four, I know that is no mean feat. 

I also want to welcome your sister, Susan, who, like you, hails 

from Bristol, and her husband, Sandor. They have made the trip 

from Miami. Welcome. 

Harold Missal, your dad, I know is part of the reason why this 

job is so inspiring to you. He was a decorated World War II veteran 

who served in the Army’s 286th Engineer Combat Battalion and received five Battle Stars as well as the Purple Heart. He served as 

a highly-respected State judge in Connecticut. I think I may have 

appeared before him in the course of my own practice as Attorney 

General as well as before that in private practice. He retired as a 

senior judge of the Connecticut State Supreme Court and served 

with the same distinction as he did as a member of the armed 

services. 

I hope that you will ensure that the VA is an agency that supports and helps heroes like your dad who have put their lives at 

risk. I am sure that he and your mom, Rose, would be very proud 

of your service to our Nation and your service here today. 

I look forward to hearing more about your professional experience, about how you will serve the VA and the veterans of America. 

252 

Yet, one point that I want to emphasize, which I think is a view 

shared by this Committee, is that the accountability of your office 

to this Committee is essential. As this hearing will show, there was 

a delay in providing information in the past in certain instances. 

I hope that lag or gap in responsiveness will be overcome and cured 

when you are in this position. 

I especially appreciate your writing on the importance of whistleblower protections, a critical issue before this Committee, and one 

on which I will have more to say on the floor of the Senate later 

this week. 

The American taxpayers as well as American veterans express 

their appreciation for your service. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Under the rules of the Committee, the testimony of all Presidential nominees appearing before the Committee 

must be taken under oath. Mr. Missal, I would ask that you stand 

and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear and affirm that 

the testimony you are about to give before the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. MISSAL. I do. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Please be seated. Thank you for your testimony today. You will be recognized for up to 5 minutes, and if you 

run a little over, nobody is going to throw a flag on you. We would 

love to hear from you. [Laughter.] 

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Mr. MISSAL. Thank you. Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member 

Blumenthal, distinguished Members of the Committee on Veterans’ 

Affairs, and veterans who have served our great Nation. It is an 

honor and privilege to testify before you today as the nominee to 

be the Inspector General of the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

I would like to recognize some special people who are here today. 

First, my wife, Deborah, and our son, Jordan, who is a senior at 

Washington and Lee University has agreed to come today. My sister, Susan Lenner, and her husband, Sandor, are here from Miami. 

In addition, former Attorney General and Governor of Pennsylvania Dick Thornburgh and his wife, Ginny, drove a long way to 

be here. Dick has been a great mentor, law firm colleague, and 

friend for a number of years. I would also like to thank the many 

friends and colleagues for attending today. 

This would have been an incredibly proud day for my parents, 

Harold and Rose Missal, but, unfortunately, both passed away a 

number of years ago. Aside from family, the most important things 

in my father’s life were his military service and his public service. 

My father was a World War II veteran who fought in Europe with 

the Army’s 286th Engineer Combat Battalion. He was a proud veteran and truly one of the ‘‘Greatest Generation.’’ 

My father was also a State judge in Connecticut for more than 

30 years. He instilled in me the importance of public service and 

the concept of ‘‘giving back.’’ He believed that there was no higher 

calling than being in public service and working hard to make a 

difference in people’s lives. I started my legal career in public service and have always desired to return to it. I cannot imagine a 

253 

more meaningful or important role than the Inspector General of 

the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

The Mission Statement of the VA is to fulfill President Lincoln’s 

promise, ‘‘To care for him who shall have borne the battle and for 

his widow, and his orphan’’ by serving and honoring the men and 

women who are America’s veterans. The VA provides essential 

services and benefits to our veterans, but it has more work to do 

to live up fully to President Lincoln’s promise. 

This is a particularly critical time for the VA as it attempts to 

rebuild the trust and confidence it has lost from our veterans, Congress, Veterans Service Organizations, and the American public. 

The VA Inspector General plays a crucial and independent role in 

assisting the VA meet its mission and identifying instances where 

it falls short. The need to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse and 

to promote efficiency and integrity at the VA may never have been 

greater. Recent public reports from the Office of Inspector General 

and elsewhere underscore the need for significant and prompt improvements in the way the VA is servicing our veterans. If confirmed, I look forward to playing a role in strengthening the programs, policies, and culture of the VA. 

I have had the opportunity recently to meet with many of you 

and to hear your thoughts and views about the VA and the workings of the Office of Inspector General. The discussions have been 

extremely constructive and valuable. I recognize your bipartisan 

approach to these issues and the great frustration in the VA not 

fully meeting its mission. 

Many of you discussed the important role that whistleblowers 

play in identifying potential issues. I also believe that whistleblowers are immensely important to the work of the VA Office of 

Inspector General. If confirmed, one of my goals will be to promote 

an improved environment in which whistleblowers have confidence 

that their concerns will be fairly and effectively considered by the 

Office of Inspector General and that their identities will be protected from disclosure. I will also take the necessary steps to ensure that whistleblowers are fully aware of their right to be free 

from reprisal for making protected disclosures and how to seek redress from appropriate authorities if reprisal occurs. 

I believe that I have the experience, skills, judgment, and temperament to be a highly effective Inspector General. My professional career has provided me with valuable and extensive experience in investigations, audits, and inspections—three of the primary functions of an Inspector General. I have successfully conducted a number of complex and high-profile internal investigations. With respect to audits, I have routinely dealt with accounting principles and auditing standards. Finally, I have been involved 

in the inspections of various entities. 

My service on the Management Committee of K&L Gates and my 

role as the co-practice area leader of the Policy and Regulatory 

practices have provided me with significant management experience. As a co-practice area leader, I am responsible for the performance of more than 200 policy and regulatory lawyers and professionals. The Management Committee is also responsible for the 

overall business and operations of the firm, including developing a 

budget for a firm with over $1 billion in revenues. 

254 

If confirmed, I pledge to work tirelessly and independently on behalf of our veterans and the American public. I also pledge to work 

collaboratively with this Committee and other Members of Congress and their staff. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Missal follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE THE INSPECTOR

GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

Chairman Isakson, Ranking Member Blumenthal, distinguished Members of the 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, and veterans who have served our great Nation. 

It is an honor and privilege to testify before you today as the nominee to be the 

Inspector General of the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

I would like to recognize some special people who are here today. First, my wife 

Deborah and our son Jordan, who is a senior at Washington and Lee University. 

My sister, Susan Lenner, and her husband, Sandor, are here from Miami. In addition, former Attorney General and Governor of Pennsylvania, Dick Thornburgh, and 

his wife, Ginny, are present. Dick has been a great mentor, colleague and friend for 

a number of years. I would also like to thank the many friends and colleagues for 

attending today. 

This would have been an incredibly proud day for my parents, Harold and Rose 

Missal, but unfortunately both passed away a number of years ago. Aside from family, the most important things in my father’s life were his military service and his 

public service. My father was a World War II veteran who fought in Europe with 

the Army’s 286th Engineer Combat Battalion. He was a proud veteran and truly 

one of the ‘‘Greatest Generation.’’ 

My father was also a state judge in Connecticut for more than 30 years. He instilled in me the importance of public service and the concept of ‘‘giving back.’’ He 

believed that there was no higher calling than being in public service and working 

hard to make a difference in people’s lives. I started my legal career in public service and have always desired to return to it. I cannot imagine a more meaningful 

or important role than the Inspector General of the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

The Mission Statement of the VA is to fulfill President Lincoln’s promise: ‘‘To care 

for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow, and his orphan’’ by serving and honoring the men and women who are America’s veterans. The VA provides 

essential services and benefits to our Veterans, but it has more work to do to live 

up fully to President Lincoln’s promise. 

This is a particularly critical time for the VA as it attempts to rebuild the trust 

and confidence it has lost from our Veterans, Congress, Veterans Service Organizations and the American public. The VA Inspector General plays a crucial and independent role in assisting the VA meet its mission and identifying the instances 

where it falls short. The need to eliminate waste, fraud and abuse and to promote 

efficiency and integrity at the VA may never have been greater. Recent public reports from the Office of Inspector General and elsewhere underscore the need for 

significant and prompt improvements in the way the VA is servicing our Veterans. 

If confirmed, I look forward to playing a role in strengthening the programs, policies 

and culture of the VA. 

I have had the opportunity recently to meet with many of you and to hear your 

thoughts and views about the VA and the workings of the Office of Inspector General. The discussions have been extremely constructive and valuable. I recognize 

your bipartisan approach to these issues and the great frustration in the VA not 

fully meeting its mission. 

Many of you discussed the important role that whistleblowers play in identifying 

potential issues. I also believe that whistleblowers are immensely important to the 

work of the VA Office of Inspector General. If confirmed, one of my goals will be 

to promote an improved environment in which whistleblowers have confidence that 

their concerns will be fairly and effectively considered by the Office of Inspector 

General and that their identities will be protected from disclosure. I will also take 

the necessary steps to ensure that whistleblowers are fully aware of their right to 

be free from reprisal for making protected disclosures and how to seek redress from 

appropriate authorities if reprisal occurs. 

I believe that I have the experience, skills, judgment and temperament to be a 

highly effective Inspector General. My professional career has provided me with valuable and extensive experience in investigations, audits and inspections, three of 

the primary functions of an Inspector General. I have successfully conducted a number of complex and high-profile investigations, including serving as the Lead CounVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00258 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6621 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
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sel to the Examiner in the WorldCom bankruptcy proceeding, Lead Counsel to the 

Independent Review Panel investigating the 60 Minutes Wednesday segment on 

President George W. Bush’s Texas Air National Guard Service, assisting the Senate 

Select Committee on Ethics in its investigation of Senator John Ensign and being 

appointed by the Department of Justice to be the Examiner in the bankruptcy proceeding of New Century Financial, one of the largest originators of subprime mortgages. With respect to audits, I have routinely dealt with accounting principles and 

auditing standards and have chaired the Washington and Lee University Audit 

Committee. Finally, I have been involved in the inspections of various entities. This 

work included making recommendations on how to improve the efficiencies and effectiveness of the programs and policies of those entities. 

My service on the Management Committee of K&L Gates and my role as the coPractice Area Leader of the Policy and Regulatory practices have provided me with 

significant management experience. One of the practices under my jurisdiction is 

the firm’s national healthcare practice. As a co-Practice Area Leader, I am responsible for the performance of more than 200 policy and regulatory lawyers and professionals. Among other duties, I am involved in recruiting, professional development, 

evaluations, compensation determinations, risk management and strategic positioning of the practices. The Management Committee is also responsible for the 

overall business and operations of the firm, including developing a budget for a firm 

with over $1 billion in revenues. 

If confirmed, I pledge to work tirelessly and independently on behalf of our Veterans and the American public. I also pledge to work collaboratively with this Committee and other Members of Congress and their staff. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and I look forward to your questions. 

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Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you for your testimony. We will have 

5-minute questions from each of the Members. We will alternate 

Republican and Democrat after Ranking Member Blumenthal has 

asked his questions, and I will open the initial questions. 

You were on the Management Committee at K&L Gates. Is that 

correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. That is correct. 

Chairman ISAKSON. How many people did you manage at K&L 

Gates? 

Mr. MISSAL. The firm is made up of about 2,000 attorneys and 

professionals. 

Chairman ISAKSON. How many did you manage yourself? 

Mr. MISSAL. As a practice area leader, I have a little more than 

200 professionals and attorneys that I manage. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Do you know how many employees there are 

at the Inspector General’s Office of the VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. There are about 650. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Almost 700, so you are about three times as 

many people as you manage at K&L. It is a big job. 

Your interest in this job, you did not apply for the position of Inspector General. Is that correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. I did apply through the Council of Inspectors General for a position as an Inspector General. 

Chairman ISAKSON. As an Inspector General, but not necessarily 

the one at the VA. 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 


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Chairman ISAKSON. OK. You are aware that the Under Secretary 

for Benefits recently resigned from the Veterans Administration? 

Mr. MISSAL. I am. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That an employee of the Veterans Administration at the Charlie Norwood VA in my homestate of Georgia was 

indicted—— 

Mr. MISSAL. I am aware of that. 

Chairman ISAKSON [continuing]. In relation to appointments? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That there are continued concerns about 

data manipulation, and, in fact, the IG reported recently there was 

a culture of manipulation of statistics within the VA to change the 

way things looked when they really were not represented properly, 

and continued concerns about retaliation against whistleblowers, 

which you will directly address in just a second, continues at the 

Veterans Administration? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Are you prepared to embrace aggressively all 

four of those particular problems that confront us today? 

Mr. MISSAL. I am. 

Chairman ISAKSON. What would you do in particular, starting 

with the manipulation of numbers for the purpose of earning bonuses or other things, end results that benefit the employee and 

are no benefit to the veteran? What would you do from your experience, and what would you implement or get the VA to implement 

that could help get us over this hump and get people doing things 

the right way for the right reasons? 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. With respect to that particular issue, that 

seems to fall directly into the IG’s mandate with respect to fraud, 

waste, and abuse. I would take a fair, objective, and aggressive 

look at it, and, if appropriate, take the necessary action. That 

would include making recommendations as well as to how to improve the system that is in place. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That is a question of data integrity, is it not? 

Mr. MISSAL. It could be, yes. 

Chairman ISAKSON. In your many investigations that you alluded 

to in your opening testimony, how many of them dealt with data 

integrity or the manipulation of data for the purposes of nefarious 

purposes? 

Mr. MISSAL. Several of them have. 

Chairman ISAKSON. How did they come out? 

Mr. MISSAL. They came out that we found that there was manipulation and that we worked through both the system, the automated systems in place, and the people in place. 

Chairman ISAKSON. The reason I am so insistent on this particular point is I have great regard for Bob McDonald and the people of the VA trying to do the best job that they can, but it has 

become obvious to me that there has been a culture of manipulation of statistics within the VA for a long period of time that has 

got to be stopped and ended. We have got to change it from a negative culture to a positive culture, which in the end, has got to be 

done from the outside. Quite frankly, the IG’s Office is the closest 

thing to the outside we have got with an insider, and that is going 

272 

to be the important thing you are going to have to do for this Committee and for the American taxpayer. 

Do you think you have the experience to tackle the job from the 

beginning and accomplish what is already in short supply, which 

is integrity within the VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. I do, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. What do you think is the most important 

quality that you bring to the job that will allow us to accomplish 

that where we have not before? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think I bring a number of different qualities: one 

is independence; second is aggressiveness; and, third, the skill set 

to do investigations to determine what actually happened. 

Chairman ISAKSON. You are also aware that we have had an acting IG Director now for about 18 months without a permanent one. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. That is correct. 

Chairman ISAKSON. The minute a permanent one is confirmed, 

and if it is you, there is going to be tremendous scrutiny and responsibility on your shoulders to turn the ship and get the VA and 

the IG’s Office cooperating in fixing the wrongs and righting the 

rights within that organization. That will be your first order of 

business? 

Mr. MISSAL. That is right, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. That is what this Committee is going to look 

for you to do. 

Now I will turn to Senator Blumenthal for his questions. 

Richard? 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you. As you know, a scheme was 

recently revealed that was carried out by a number of senior executives at the VBA to skirt the salary and bonus limitations in effect 

by unnecessarily relocating executives and using those moves to 

justify the increases in their pay and relocation benefits. The Inspector General, the acting person in that role, reported that employees ‘‘improperly used their positions of authority for personal 

and financial benefit’’ when they forced the transfers of lower-ranking officials and then filled the vacancies themselves. 

As you may also know, the Inspector General in this particular 

instance failed to share in a timely manner with the VA’s Office 

of Accountability Review the information the IG used to make its 

recommendation that the VA consider administrative action 

against some senior executives. 

If confirmed, I would like you to commit that you will share information within the VA and with this Committee in as timely a 

way as possible so it can bring swift action to hold accountable anyone who has violated the law or the rules of the VA. 

Mr. MISSAL. I will commit to do so. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. As I mentioned earlier, one of my criticisms of the VA Inspector General Office has been the failure to 

work as closely as perhaps should have been done within the Department of Justice. As you know from your experience, the Department of Justice has powers that the VA Inspector General does 

not have. Could you outline for the Committee your view of the relative advantages of working closely with the Department of Justice 

and how you view those advantages going forward? 

273 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. Accountability is obviously a key issue. Bringing criminal sanctions is as strong an action of accountability as 

you are going to find. I see the Department of Justice as a strong 

partner of the Office of Inspector General. I would work with the 

appropriate people at the Department of Justice to make sure they 

understand how important this is to the VA and establish a good 

relationship with them. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. The Department of Justice can empower 

or empanel a grand jury, can it not? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. The Inspector General cannot. 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. A grand jury can issue subpoenas and 

compel testimony, correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Whereas, the Inspector General cannot. 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. In my view, the Department of Justice is 

an important partner when there is a suspicion, a credible and substantial suspicion of criminal wrongdoing. I hope that you will involve the Department of Justice as a partner, where appropriate, 

in your efforts. 

As you know, last summer VA Secretary McDonald commendably 

established the Office of Accountability Review, which I referred to 

earlier, to ensure that there is leadership accountability for whistleblower retaliation. The VA has also improved its collaboration 

with the Office of Special Counsel, which is the independent office 

responsible for overseeing whistleblower disclosures and investigating whistleblower retaliation across the Federal Government. 

I think these steps are good ones. They are good first steps. More 

needs to be done to ensure that whistleblowers are not retaliated 

against and that disclosures of wrongdoing are properly addressed. 

I will be introducing legislation to achieve that goal. I hope it will 

be bipartisan legislation. 

Given your experience, very extensive and impressive experience 

with whistleblower investigations, could you give me your impression of the VA’s methods in the past for receiving and protecting 

whistleblower complaints? 

Mr. MISSAL. Well, I know, based on published information I have 

seen, the Inspector General’s Office believes whistleblowers are 

very important to their mission. However, there have been a number of reports out there that whistleblowers do not seem to be fully 

satisfied. One of the things I would do, which would be a priority, 

would be to try to create an environment where whistleblowers feel 

confident that their concerns are going to be looked at fully, fairly, 

and objectively, because I believe very strongly that whistleblowers 

can really aid in terms of getting the information necessary for the 

Inspector General. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you very much. My time has expired. I have a few more questions, but in deference to my colleagues, I am going to end here. We may come back to you if time 

permits. Thank you very, very much, and, again, my thanks to you 

and to your family for their service. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Rounds. 

274 

HON. MIKE ROUNDS, U.S. SENATOR FROM SOUTH DAKOTA 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Missal, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time 

to reach out to our office. I appreciated the opportunity to visit 

with you personally. As I told you in our first meeting, I questioned 

whether or not you had really thought this thing through, wanting 

to jump right into the middle of this. As Secretary McDonald has 

found out, I think this is like a swamp filled with gators. Every 

time you try to drain it, you have one more gator biting someplace 

that you do not like. Yet, at the same time, you are volunteering 

to step into this mess, where you can play an integral part in fixing 

this for veterans across the United States. 

I think there are some things here that are going to stand in 

your way of getting that done, and I would like to give you an opportunity to specifically address some of those for everyone here. 

You have got great private practice experience. You come with a 

wealth of private background, information, education, and so forth, 

and clearly, you have been successful. But, if you take a look at 

what has happened in the rest of Government—and I am not going 

to claim this to be successful in Government, but if you take a look 

at what has been the past practice, 6 out of the 11 Senate-confirmed IGs for Cabinet-level agencies have first served as the IG 

for a smaller agency. You do not have any experience as an IG. Of 

the remaining five Senate-confirmed IGs for Cabinet-level agencies, 

two first served leadership roles at IG offices. The remaining three 

Senate-confirmed IGs for Cabinet-level agencies all first had significant experience with Federal criminal investigations or prosecutions. Since the VA became a Cabinet-level agency, every single 

Senate-confirmed IG has had prior experience as an IG in a leadership role at an IG office or in a Federal criminal investigation. 

Sell yourself. How are you going to make up for the lack of experience in an IG office walking in with a large group of over 650 

members who are IGs and work in an IG office? How do you go 

about bringing them onto your team? Why do you have the capability and the private experience that would equal or surpass what 

we would expect from other individuals working through the experience in an IG’s Office? 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. Well, first of all, I have been in the Government before. I worked as a prosecutor at the Securities and Exchange Commission, so I have gotten that experience there. 

Since I have been in private practice, I have worked very extensively with Government officials, other regulators, prosecutors, and 

inspectors general as well. In addition, my experience in the private practice has been really focused on the three main areas that 

you are looking for in an IG, which are: investigations; audit; and 

inspections. I think I can take that experience and I can demonstrate to the office that I am somebody who could be a highly effective Inspector General. 

Senator ROUNDS. There has been a discussion already about data 

integrity and the fact that the Acting Inspector General now has 

testified that the Inspector General’s office cannot trust VA self-reported data showing a reduction of the backlog of disability claims, 

and they move on through this process. I am sure you are aware 

of that. How do you go fixing this system if you cannot trust the 

275 

data from the system itself? What would you recommend to begin 

getting accurate data so that you can make good recommendations? 

Mr. MISSAL. One thing you are going to want to do is to be testing it, testing whatever information you are getting, if you do have 

a question about it, to see if there are any red flags or other issues 

that raise a question. Then, in other situations, what has been 

done is they brought in a third party as well. If you cannot trust 

what you are getting in a certain situation, sometimes bringing in 

a third party, sometimes on a temporary basis, has been very 

helpful. 

Senator ROUNDS. A significant part of the VA’s responsibilities 

has to do with the delivery of health care. Do you have a background in the delivery of health care or in reviewing and looking 

at health care delivery systems? 

Mr. MISSAL. I do. I have been involved in several cases involving 

health care. In addition, as part of my management responsibilities, I manage our nationwide health care practice. 

Senator ROUNDS. You have had several months now to look at 

the VA as an outsider looking in. As an Inspector General, what 

is the first thing you do when you walk in the door, should you be 

selected to do this job? 

Mr. MISSAL. The first thing I would do would be to immerse myself into the IG’s Office, to review the practices, the policies, the 

priorities that they have, and to make any improvements that I believe are necessary. 

In addition, I think it is critically important to meet with senior 

management as well. I understand you need to be independent 

from management of the VA. There is a very important independence responsibility. On the other hand, I think you need to make 

sure that they understand that they have somebody who is going 

to look at things fairly and objectively, because I think you want 

to get out in front of some of these issues before they become bigger 

issues, and part of that is getting to talk to management and seeing what their issues are. 

Senator ROUNDS. My time has expired, but I would ask one last 

question, a yes or a no answer, I believe. You are going to need a 

plan. Would you commit that you will bring back to this Committee 

a plan for putting this in order so that you can actually lay out for 

the Secretary a pathway forward so that he can actually get things 

done in there? Would you commit to providing a plan of how you 

can be an effective IG when the time comes? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you. 

[See the posthearing response to question 12, for the full 

explanation.] 

Senator ROUNDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Manchin. 

HON. JOE MANCHIN III, U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 

Mr. Missal. Also, I want to thank you for showing the courtesy of 

stopping by. We had a nice conversation. I enjoyed that. I also 

want to thank you for having the interest in public service. It is 

so hard to get people of your quality and your caliber that will give 

276 

something back to their country. You did it on the beginning of 

your career and at the end of your career. You have made that 

commitment, and I thank you for it. 

In West Virginia—everyone here has a story of a VA catastrophe, 

if you will, if something has happened in their State with their veterans who we are supposed to take care of. In my State, this past 

April the Office of Special Counsel released a report that substantiated a whistleblower’s allegation of the Beckley VA hospital 

switching antipsychotic drugs based on cost, which is against VA’s 

policy. One of the recommendations provided by the investigators 

was to take appropriate action against the leadership and others 

as warranted. Beckley says, their M.D.,—that they remedied the 

situation, but as far as we can tell, no one has been held accountable at all. As a matter of fact, the person who was in charge of 

the VA in Beckley has been promoted to a higher position in the 

VA. 

These are things that just lead people to give up. Whether it be 

a whistleblower or not, they see wrongdoing, and they do not think 

anything will happen. I am not sure, because I just do not know 

what ability you will have to enforce this. Once you find wrongdoing, what is your role then? 

Mr. MISSAL. My role is to issue reports and, depending on the seriousness, perhaps talk to leadership, and ultimately come to Congress, if necessary. 

Senator MANCHIN. You would have the ability to come independently to us and say, ‘‘Listen, these are the wrongdoings that we 

have seen. No action has been taken and I believe that there is justification to take action?’’ If it is not being done within the VA, you 

are saying you would come to this Committee maybe or to an appropriate Committee and allow us to take action? 

Mr. MISSAL. Absolutely. 

Senator MANCHIN. That needs to be done. Also, I think that Senator Rounds hit on some good points. There is not that much time 

left in this administration, and for you to take on this task—it has 

been vacant for 16 months, I believe. You will have less than 16 

months. 

I know you will be confirmed. With that being said, you have got 

to hit the ground running and to make a difference. I do not think 

you come here just to hold a place. 

I would just say again, as everyone has asked here, what is your 

first priority that you see the greatest attention needed in that job 

the first day you walk in? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think it is really to get to know the priorities, the 

practices, and really start to turn around the credibility issues that 

I believe some have with the VA. So, I think it is really to look and 

see what are the most important things. 

Senator MANCHIN. Do you believe the agency—I mean, in your 

department, do you believe that is top-heavy, close to 700 people? 

Mr. MISSAL. I do not know if it is top-heavy. I know they are 

spread out, and they certainly issue a lot of reports. 

Senator MANCHIN. Not a whole lot is done with the reports. That 

is the problem that we are talking about. 

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line; there has to be a real incentive and culture of trust for whistleblowers so they feel like they can come forward. 

Judging from the past testimony of whistleblowers who worked 

for the VA that we have had here and reports from organizations 

such as the Project on Government Oversight, the VA has a recorded history of reprisal against employees who dared to report 

wrongdoings. One could argue that the culture of trust is not only 

broken, but it is now absolutely nonexistent. I do not know how 

you repair that in 15 months. 

Mr. MISSAL. I think it is a challenge, but that is something I will 

focus on. 

Senator MANCHIN. Because people are not coming forward; I 

think they are afraid to come forward now. 

Mr. MISSAL. Hopefully I can persuade them that the environment 

is going to change, work hard and make sure they understand that 

their concerns are going to be fairly and appropriately reviewed. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Manchin. 

I am going to take the Chairman’s privilege of just taking a follow-up on one thing that Senator Manchin just said. Your oblique 

answer that they issue a lot of reports with kind of a twinkle in 

your eye, I would like to make that a compound sentence and say 

we would like to see them come up with a lot of results. Anybody 

can report on problems and describe what is wrong. It is about 

time we started getting some results. Hopefully we can have an 

agency that is a catalyst for the Secretary and the employees of the 

VA to get those results. I just had to throw that in because it was 

a great lead-in. Thank you, Senator Manchin. 

Senator Boozman? 

HON. JOHN BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS 

Senator BOOZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

being here, Mr. Missal. I really enjoyed when you came by and we 

got to visit in the office. This is such a huge job. You know, we 

count on the IG to use its authority and really help make aware 

to Congress what is going on, make aware to the Secretary, so that 

we can, you know, all work together to fix the problems that we 

have. 

I guess one of the things that people wonder about—you are 

blessed, you have been part of the tremendously successful practice, you know, you have done lots of things. Why do you want to 

do this? There is mention of your dad and things like that. I appreciate the fact that you do want to do it, but what is driving you 

to really jump out? This is a huge task. Tell us why you want to 

do it. 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. I have always thought I was going to be in 

public service my entire career. I took a detour. I thought I was 

going to be there for a short time. It turned out to be 28 years. I 

have had a great practice. I have gotten a lot of skills and a lot 

of things that I have learned in those years in private practice. 

I have always wanted to go back, and I felt that my experience 

fits perfectly in with the responsibilities of an IG, and just seeing 

the issues at the VA, I am very committed to doing what I can to 

help out. 

278 

Senator BOOZMAN. You have had experience a lot in the financial 

sector, overseeing things like that. The VA is unique in the sense 

it has got so many things; so much of it is health care-related. You 

know, there is concern about your health care experience. Then, 

you have got the waste and fraud component, and then also the 

problem of the various programs that we have in place, actually 

making sure that those programs are working. 

Can you tell us again, based on your past experience—like I say, 

there is concern about your health care experience, experience in 

some of these matters. How does your past investigative experience, how does that all work together? Does that make sense? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Senator BOOZMAN. In other words, what is the common component to getting in and investigating something and doing a good 

job? 

Mr. MISSAL. I have been involved in investigations in a number 

of different industries and issues, and what you need to do is really 

learn those issues as well as the experts. I have done that in a 

number of different industries. 

For an investigation to be successful, you are trying to accomplish at least five things: you want it to be objective; you want it 

to be fair; you want it to be thorough; you want it to be timely; and 

you want it to be accurate. I think that goes across any kind of industry, whether it is health care, whether it is the financial sector, 

or any other sector. 

Senator BOOZMAN. Just looking from the outside—and I know 

this is difficult, but, you know, we have these huge cost overruns 

and things like that. Can you comment about how you prevent 

things like that from happening? You know, what is the answer to 

actually jumping in there and trying to help us get control of that? 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. I think every situation is going to be a little 

different. It is hard to say one solution fits everything. 

On the other hand, that is why you have audits: to take a look, 

test, and see at an early stage. If there are issues, if there are red 

flags that come up, you are then able to deal with them as quickly 

as possible before they become bigger problems. 

Senator BOOZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. 

Missal. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Boozman. 

Senator Tester? 

HON. JON TESTER, U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA 

Senator TESTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to echo what so many folks have said here. We appreciate 

your standing up to take the job. It is not going to be an easy job. 

I think that we all want you to do the very best you can because 

it is a very, very important job. So, we appreciate your willingness 

to take it on. 

How aware are you—I mean, you talked about K&L Gates having 200 direct management; there are 650, close to 700 in the VA. 

Have you had a chance to look at the structure within the IG of 

the VA to see—is that something you have been able to do yet, to 

see what kind of management team you will have around you in 

the IG’s Office? 

279 

Mr. MISSAL. Not in any great detail, no. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Can you remember what K&L Gates’ budget was for your department? 

Mr. MISSAL. For the Policy and Regulatory, it is a little more than $200 million, I believe, 

Senator TESTER. $200 million? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yeah. 

Senator TESTER. Really? Well, because I think we just passed a $71.2 billion budget for the VA. Is that correct? I do not know if 

we are quite there, but it is in that ballpark. If my staff is good 

at what they do, they told me that the budget for Office of Inspector General is about $127 million. 

Mr. MISSAL. That is correct. 

Senator TESTER. Is that adequate? 

Mr. MISSAL. I believe that is what I have read in—— 

Senator TESTER. The question is not, is it accurate; is it adequate? Do you feel that is adequate if, in fact, K&L Gates, a $1 billion company—I think that is what you said—puts about a fifth of 

their resources into that. 

Mr. MISSAL. It is hard to say at this time. Obviously, that would 

be one of the things I would be looking at, is the adequacy of the 

budget, whether the resources are appropriate. Certainly, I would 

raise that issue if I felt that it was not. 

Senator TESTER. OK. Look, you are going to be pounded by a lot 

of different folks from here and everywhere about inspections they 

want you to do. How do you remain independent without being influenced by the VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. That is a tenet of this job. It is critical to the job. 

It is one of the requirements under the Inspector General Act of 

1978. You have to have the integrity to stand up and say, ‘‘I am 

going to be independent and not be unduly influenced.’’ I believe 

I can do that. 

Senator TESTER. OK. So, how do you handle it if somebody comes 

in and says, ‘‘You know, you are really barking up the wrong tree 

here, Inspector. You ought to just leave this alone and go a different direction’’? 

Mr. MISSAL. It takes zero tolerance. I do not even like the appearance of not being independent. If necessary, take the appropriate action if somebody persists. 

Senator TESTER. What would that appropriate action be? 

Mr. MISSAL. It could go as far as informing this Committee and 

Congress about it. 

Senator TESTER. OK. You have had an extensive background as 

an investigator, as you have already talked about. What are the 

primary attributes to have a productive and effective investigation? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think what you want to do—it needs to meet certain criteria. You know, most importantly perhaps is you want it 

to be accurate. You need it to be timely so it is relevant to whatever you have. You need it to be objective and fair just so people 

believe that they have been given the right opportunity, and you 

do not want anybody attacking it saying that they have not been 

able to give information. Finally, it needs to be thorough. It really 

needs to cover the issue, because at the end of the day you do not 

want somebody coming in and saying, ‘‘Well, it was good what you 

280 

did, but we still have this whole other issue that you did not look 

at.’’ 

Senator TESTER. I am going to ask you a really unfair question 

now. If it is a complex issue, for instance, what happened in Phoenix a few years back—and I do not know if you are familiar with 

that or not. How long should those investigations take? 

Mr. MISSAL. It is really hard to say. You can do sort of a quick 

assessment, you know, for something like a Phoenix situation in 

months, probably. But, it really depends on all the facts and circumstances as to how long it is going to take. 

Senator TESTER. All right. Very good. Well, thank you for your 

willingness to do it. I would just say, Mr. Chairman, that I think 

the quicker the better as far as confirmation of this young man. 

Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Tester, and I am sure he 

appreciates the ‘‘young man’’ comment. [Laughter.] 

Senator Cassidy? 

HON. BILL CASSIDY, U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA 

Senator CASSIDY. Hi, Mr. Missal. I enjoyed our meeting. Thank 

you for coming by the office. 

I am the physician on the Committee, so you might guess, I have 

become kind of like—people channel their physician-type concerns 

to me. Let me just kind of pursue this. 

We have had testimony from the physicians within the VA. They 

have made statements which plausibly seemed plausible. But, with 

my physician background, I knew enough to scratch a little bit 

deeper; with just that minimal bit of scratching, it was clear that 

there was a gross deficiency. 

Now, the folks who are concerned about your nomination—and I 

would be lying if I did not say there were some that are—say the 

fellow, speaking of you, not disrespectfully, may have as an attorney looked into a health care case, but if you look at your resume, 

that is a small part of your book of business, and other than that, 

you do not have health care. Whereas, I might say, ‘‘Well, you have 

one pain management program in Cleveland, why is it only in 

Cleveland when you have a rate of opioid addiction which is way 

out of the norm.’’ Their point would be, ‘‘Hmm, would this gentleman know that opioid addiction is an addiction? Maybe yes, but 

what about another issue which is less topical?’’ 

As Senator Rounds said, sell yourself. To those folks who are saying, ‘‘Really a very small part of his resume is health care, and yet 

he is going to be leading the second largest agency in the U.S. Government, which is principally dedicated to health care,’’ how would 

you respond to them? 

Mr. MISSAL. I would respond that, first of all, I have had health 

care experience. Second, I—— 

Senator CASSIDY. Now, the health care experience, though, to 

their point, would be that it is merely as an attorney—not minimizing the role of an attorney—but not as someone who organically—not a nurse or a hospital administrator or such like that. 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. That is correct. Second, I manage health 

care lawyers and others at the firm. We have retained experts. I 

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281 

try. Third, and maybe most importantly, in any issue I have, immersed myself into it. I get to know it as well as anybody who has 

worked in that area. That is what I would expect to do in this situation. I would immediately get involved in all of the issues, which 

I am very confident that I can—to the extent I need additional education on it, that would come very quickly. 

Senator CASSIDY. Now, let me ask—again, since we met I have 

been trying to learn more about this. I understand when the IG 

meets with Secretary McDonald, there is an iterative process, and 

that, if you will, they might push back; then you would push, they 

would push, and you would try to come to some sort of ‘‘is this 

plausible or not?’’ So, it does seem intuitively to me that the more 

organically that you know something, not as, ‘‘Well, I have got a 

final exam,’’ but, rather, ‘‘I have been living this for 30 years,’’ the 

more you would know when the person with whom you are speaking was speaking out of turn as opposed to, ‘‘Hey, that sounds’’— 

‘‘I did not think about it that way.’’ Do you follow what I am 

saying? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Senator CASSIDY. Now, knowing that you will immerse yourself, 

do you still feel as if you will have that sort of organic understanding of what, arguably, is one of the most complicated agencies 

in the Federal Government? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. In response to that question, on the IG’s staff 

there are a number of physicians and other health care professionals, so I will rely heavily on them as well in terms of their expertise. I believe that the expertise is currently within the staff. To 

the extent it needs to be supplemented or expanded, then that is 

something to be looked at. 

Senator CASSIDY. Now, I also see the IG as being the prime 

mover, that among every—it is a target-rich environment, right? I 

told someone my grandson could be the head of the IG, and he 

would find a lot wrong with the VA. I say that with a smile, and 

then I kind of, ‘‘Oh, my gosh, isn’t it true?’’ 

It will also be up to you, I presume, to prioritize. If you have limited resources which are stretched thin, including some physicians, 

nurses, et cetera, those with expertise, again, reassure them that 

you would be able to pick out, well, this is really a top priority, and 

this may be less so even though it might be egregious in its own 

right, in the relative degree this less so. How would you establish 

that pecking order, again, reassuring those who come to me and 

say, ‘‘Listen, the fellow does not have that organic understanding.’’ 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. I think that would be in consultation with others in the office to see what the current priorities are, and then to 

discuss it with them to see whether or not those priorities need to 

be changed in any way. I think it will be something that we are 

going to look at very carefully as to the various partners and ask, 

are we really focused on the right ideas. 

Senator CASSIDY. I yield back. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Dr. Cassidy. 

Senator Brown? 

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HON. SHERROD BROWN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OHIO 

Senator BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I join colleagues, Mr. 

Missal, in thanking you for doing this and for coming to each of our 

individual offices to talk to us. 

I want to emphasize a question that Senator Blumenthal asked 

about whistleblower retaliation. I know you answered that, and you 

answered in my office, too. I just want to emphasize and underscore how important that is. 

I listen to all of us at these hearings talk about all the problems 

with the VA, and we all were pretty outraged by some of the things 

that happened 2 or 3 years ago. I just think, though, it is important to kind of turn the blame not just on VA administration and 

a few, maybe more than a few, of the employees at the VA that did 

not do their jobs right. I get all that. But, I think it is also important to always put it in the context of when we went into Iraq, the 

President of the United States and many of the officials in the 

White House and the Department of Defense said this would be a— 

this war would not last very long. There was no interest in Congress—I should not say that. There was little interest in Congress 

and almost none in the White House that it is important to be able 

to scale up the VA, to take care of these soldiers, Marines, and airmen and women that were in the Middle East, that were in Iraq. 

The number of—none of them, none of the people that planned that 

war ever really came to Congress and said, ‘‘It is important that 

the VA be equipped for these huge numbers of casualties,’’ many 

more serious casualties than we had been used to from other wars, 

because those soldiers died on the battlefield before, now not so 

much. These survivors are going to live difficult and very-expensive-to-taxpayers lives in the future. We talked about little of that 

here because we had an administration that had no interest in exploring that. 

At the same time, we really did not see what was going to happen or we should have seen and planned for more of what was 

going to happen with Agent Orange, with presumptive eligibility, 

and all the veterans coming in the last 15 years to the VA. 

I think it is important to keep that context while we all point fingers at Government bureaucrats and point fingers at a Veterans 

Administration that has, frankly, done a pretty good job. When I 

visit community-based outpatient clinics—we have maybe 30 of 

them in Ohio, 29, 30, 31. I visit them in my hometown of Mansfield 

or Springfield or Parma or Akron and see what they do and go to 

the VA hospitals in Dayton and Cleveland and Cincinnati and see 

the work they do. It is pretty darn good most of the time. I just 

want to say that because I think it is important to put that in 

context. 

I have one comment/question based on the Chairman’s question 

regarding transparency and confidence. All that aside, because politicians rarely talk about what we did not do, Congress and the 

President, a decade ago, we would rather always point to Government bureaucrats because that is always an easier attack. It makes 

it that much harder for you as a new Inspector General to figure 

out how you, bring transparency and build the kind of confidence 

that the public expects to have in the VA itself and in the Inspector 

General. Talk through and expand a little on what you said to 

283 

Chairman Isakson. How are you going to do that? Because it is important that—for the VA to operate as well as it should, it is important that Americans have, that veterans and families of veterans have confidence in what you do and especially what the VA 

nurses, doctors, physical therapists, and psychologists do. 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. I strongly believe that to improve the trust 

and confidence that people have in the Office of Inspector General, 

transparency is one of the ways that can assist there, which is 

making sure that the reports that are issued are clear, they cover 

the right areas, and they really focus on the issues. 

In addition, with respect to the working of the office, to the extent you do not necessarily have a report, there could be statements put out and other communications, just so people understand what the office is doing, the challenges it is having, the 

issues it is seeing, et cetera. So, I expect to have a highly-communicative office. 

Senator BROWN. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Brown. 

Senator Sullivan? 

HON. DAN SULLIVAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 

Mr. Missal, for your willingness to serve. I was going to ask the 

question Senator Boozman mentioned about why do you want the 

job. I think that is always an important one, particularly a very important job like this, but as you have heard, a job that is probably 

going to not be easy by any stretch. 

Let me ask just a couple basic questions and maybe a hypothetical or two. As the IG, who do you think your most important 

client is? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think the most important clients are the veterans 

and the American public. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Good. Do you think our veterans have lost 

faith in the VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. Based on what I have read, a number of veterans 

seem to have lost faith in the VA. 

Senator SULLIVAN. So, how do we get it back? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think it is just making the VA a better agency, 

more effective, and part of the way you do that is by having an Inspector General’s Office that is identifying issues, making recommendations, and having those recommendations be implemented. 

Senator SULLIVAN. How about the issue of accountability for the 

VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think that is an important issue, as well. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Do you think that—you know, you have been 

reading about it, veterans read about it, the American public reads 

about it, we read about it, big screwups in the VA, and then nobody 

ever, ever, ever seems to be accountable. Do you think that undermines the faith our veterans have in the VA? 

Mr. MISSAL. People are asking the questions, so it undermines it, 

yes. 

284 

Senator SULLIVAN. To me, that would be one of the most important elements of the IG job, bringing back the issue of accountability. Would you agree with that? 

Mr. MISSAL. I agree. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Let me ask this, you mentioned a lot of the 

qualities. I think you have a lot of really important elements in 

your resume. You talked about skills, judgment, investigations, audits. I think another thing the IG has to have, though, is you mentioned independence. I also think aggressiveness needs to be part 

of those qualities. Can you provide some examples of that in your 

background, kind of tough examples where you need to be both tenacious and independent, maybe even independent of people who 

you ostensibly work for? 

Mr. MISSAL. Sure. In some of the large, complex investigations 

I have done, I have needed to be independent, needed to be aggressive, needed to be fair, which is key, and accurate. In all the investigations that I have done, they have all stood up to the test of 

time. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Give me an example more specific than just 

general. 

Mr. MISSAL. I was appointed by the Department of Justice to be 

the examiner in the bankruptcy proceeding of New Century Financial, which was one of the largest subprime lenders. I put out a report about how the company was originating subprime mortgages 

and about all the problems at New Century. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Let me ask more specifically. I think your relationship with the leadership of the VA, the IG, that is going to 

be really important. It is going to be kind of critical. I think a lot 

of us recognize that Secretary McDonald, Under Secretary Shulkin, 

and others are doing a good job, working hard, strong personalities 

there. But, let us say you went into the Secretary’s office and said, 

‘‘You know, Mr. Secretary, I am going to need access here. I want 

to meet three times a month just to let you know what we are 

doing, what is important.’’ He said, ‘‘I am a busy guy. I do not want 

to meet with you three times a month.’’ What would you say to the 

Secretary? 

Mr. MISSAL. If I felt strongly, I would say, ‘‘Mr. Secretary, I believe it is important to meet three times a month.’’ 

Senator SULLIVAN. What would you say to the Secretary if you 

went to him on a big issue that you investigated and said, ‘‘Mr. 

Secretary, you need to take action on this. You need to fire five 

people in the VA,’’ and he says, ‘‘I am not going to do that.’’ What 

would you do? 

Mr. MISSAL. It is his decision on those matters—— 

Senator SULLIVAN. Is it, though? I mean, you are independent. 

Whose decision is it? 

Mr. MISSAL. It is his decision. I can make recommendations. I 

can put the facts out as I find them. It is ultimately his decision 

on what actions ultimately to take. 

Senator SULLIVAN. So, you know, when you are talking about 

transparency, we were talking about at what point you would come 

to Congress. At what point would you come to Congress on something like that? Let us say you tell the Secretary, ‘‘You need to fire 

five people.’’ He says, ‘‘No.’’ At what point do you say, ‘‘I am going 

285 

to use my independent judgment, keep accountability to the veterans’’—you do not work for the Secretary. I could not agree more 

with your answer. You work for the veterans of the United States 

of America. At what point do you, in your judgment, have to say, 

‘‘I work for the veterans of the United States of America. The Secretary is not doing what I think is ethical. I am going to come to 

the Chairman of this Committee?’’ When do you do that? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think, depending on the situation, a very serious 

matter may very well need to—but also you have the power of the 

pen to issue reports, to identify issues you think are important. 

Senator SULLIVAN. What if an investigation you had found some 

kind of fraud in the Secretary’s office or fraud in the White House? 

What would you do then? 

Mr. MISSAL. I think that would be what I would consider a very 

serious situation and likely would be coming to this Committee. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Can you be more definitive on that? Fraud in 

the Secretary’s office or fraud in the White House relating to our 

veterans. 

Mr. MISSAL. I think I would be coming to this Committee. It depends on the type of fraud, who was involved in the Secretary’s office, the impact it had, et cetera. But, those sound like very serious 

situations. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, I have a few more questions, but I will yield until 

there is another round, if that is OK. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Well, we are going to do a quick round. I 

have a comment and a question, and then Senator Blumenthal has 

a question. Then we will go to you. 

On the last question, I thought your answer was exactly correct, 

and I want to amplify on it for just a second. If you find fraud in 

the agency or if you find a less than cooperative spirit in the agency to cooperate with you, no matter how difficult the investigation, 

or if the Secretary found you to be very difficult to do business with 

from a standpoint of the way you were conducting your investigation, I would hope either one of you would come to this Committee, 

because we are the independent third-party arbiter if there is a difficulty. There should never be a case of fraud or criminal conduct 

or lack of cooperation between the agency and the Inspector General that does not ultimately come to us if it cannot be dealt with 

by both of you. I think that was an excellent question by Senator 

Sullivan. I appreciate very much him asking it, and I think your 

response was spot on, because I do not think that happens—I have 

not seen evidence that that has happened very much. I have seen 

evidence of where the IG’s reports fell on deaf ears and the Secretary never thought about coming over to see us and tell us they 

fell on deaf ears and why. 

I have seen cases where we have raised the question when they 

did not. I think it is absolutely appropriate for you to not air grievances with this Committee just because you have a grievance. So, 

if you see a case of fraud or you see a case of failure to carry out 

the responsibilities of the job, you come to us. I would expect the 

Secretary to do the same thing if it was with your office. I just 

want the record to be clear. 

286 

Now, I have one question for you which only requires a yes or 

no answer. Will you promise at all times to be responsive to this 

Committee and fulfill any requests for information that we might 

make in a timely fashion? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Blumenthal. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Mr. Missal, I want to help you out a little 

bit here. If you find fraud in the VA, at whatever level, or in the 

White House, the place you are going to go is the Department of 

Justice or the FBI. Correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Because they are the ones who have law 

enforcement responsibility, they can investigate, and they can prosecute. This Committee cannot. We can make a lot of noise. We can 

embarrass people. We can shame them. But, we cannot prosecute 

them, and ultimately it is prosecution we want with appropriate 

criminal punishment, whether it is fines or imprisonment. Correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I appreciate your being responsive to Senator Sullivan’s question, but I would hope that you would bring 

that information to this Committee at the appropriate time, but 

that first and foremost you would go to law enforcement authorities, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and other appropriate 

criminal enforcement authorities, because fraud is a violation of 

criminal law. Correct? 

Mr. MISSAL. Correct. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Let me ask you about the budget that 

Senator Tester asked you about. I should have raised it myself before he did, but I will give you my opinion and ask you whether 

you agree with it. 

That amount of money, which is a fraction, a minute fraction, $120-plus million out of a total of $71 billion, in my view, is sadly 

inadequate. Would you agree? You can delete the word ‘‘sadly’’ and 

just say whether you think it is adequate or not. 

Mr. MISSAL. I just do not think I know enough yet to know 

whether or not it is inadequate. That is one of the things I will look 

at very quickly and certainly would bring it to your attention if I 

thought it was inadequate. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I would like to ask you that you report 

back to us about your opinion as soon as you are able to form it. 

I am assuming that you are going to be confirmed. I will support 

you. When you take office—I hope it will be soon—I am asking that 

you report back to us as to your independent assessment as to 

whether that budget gives you sufficient investigative and other 

professional resources to do your job as proactively and aggressively as you think is appropriate. Would you agree to do that? 

Mr. MISSAL. I will. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. You can eliminate the word ‘‘sadly’’ and 

add your own objective. I would say ‘‘sadly and egregiously inadequate,’’ but if you report back to us, I would appreciate it. Thank 

you. 

Mr. MISSAL. Thank you. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Just so the record is clear, and I completely 

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mittee is the appropriate place to come immediately upon the concern of fraud or some violation of moral turpitude or the law in the 

Veterans Administration. Obviously, the Attorney General is going 

to be the prosecutor or the investigator. I am the one that sent 

them to Augusta and got the first indictment by the Justice Department of a VA employee. But, I think one of the problems this 

Committee has had on certain occasions is things happened outside 

our knowledge, and we ended up being questioned about it, while 

we did not know. I think our need to know is important. I am not 

arguing with what was said there, but I think our need to know 

is equally important. Their ability to prosecute is ultimately where 

it takes place, but we would like to be in the loop at the beginning 

and not at the end. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I agree, Mr. Chairman. I did not mean to 

imply that the Inspector General should not come to us, but at the 

same time, or at the appropriate time, that information should be 

brought to the prosecutorial and investigative authorities within 

the Department of Justice. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Right. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. The Chairman and I are in accord. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Sullivan. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Just a few more questions, Mr. Missal. One is kind of a more 

local question with broader national implications. In Alaska, we 

have more vets per capita than any State in the country, so your 

position is very important, and a lot of people are going to be focused on it, because we have had, like a lot of States, a lot of 

problems. 

We actually had a real problem with the implementation of the 

Choice Act. I will not bore you with the details, but a lot of the 

ideas in the Choice Act actually came from some of the things that 

were actually working in Alaska, remote delivery of services, et 

cetera. Yet, when it was implemented, the new Choice Act, was 

completely botched in my State, unequivocally. We have held hearings. The Chairman and the Ranking Member have been very helpful on that. In the State, I took Dr. Shulkin across Alaska in August with a bunch of his team to hear, listen, see what the problems are. He saw it firsthand. He completely recognizes that there 

is an enormous problem with the implementation of the Choice Act 

in Alaska, to such a degree that he committed to me to work on 

an Alaska-specific plan that the Veterans Administration is presently working. 

Now, this is almost a year that we have been having these problems. I was coming back on a flight from Alaska on Sunday night, 

just my flight. Within the place I was sitting on the airplane, three 

different veterans on this plane from Alaska to Minneapolis said to 

me, ‘‘Gee, Senator, it is good to see you sitting on a plane with us. 

This Choice Act is a disaster.’’ Three within three rows of me. 

Then, the other guy, ‘‘Yeah, it is. Holy cow, I thought you were 

going to fix this. I thought you guys were going to fix this.’’ Just 

on one plane in one little area. 

My question, the broader question, is—so I have been working 

with the Secretary, Dr. Shulkin, on this, but at what point do we— 

and this is more your sense, my sense—I do not know what the 

288 

right answer here is. At what point should someone like myself, 

who is very focused on these issues because it matters so much to 

my constituents and to all veterans throughout the country, should 

we keep working with the leadership or at a certain point turn to 

you and say, ‘‘Gosh darn it, I need an investigation on this. What 

the heck is wrong with the implementation of the Choice Act in my 

State?’’ When do we quit, when do we give up with them and come 

to you? What is your sense of that? Because I do not want to do 

that, but I am not going to wait forever. I am not going to sit on 

more airplanes where half the plane are Alaska veterans and they 

are not getting the care that they need. So, how would you advise 

us on at what point do we turn to you and ask for an independent 

assessment on how we fix this? 

Mr. MISSAL. Right. Well, I obviously do not know the specific details of it all. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Oh, I know. 

Mr. MISSAL. But, if they are working through the implementation and they feel there are still other things that can be done, it 

seems like that should be implemented through the agency. To the 

extent you reach a point where you just say something is wrong 

here, I am just not getting the answers, or the answers I am getting do not seem right, then at that point it may be appropriate 

to have the IG look into it. 

Senator SULLIVAN. So, when do we call? When do you think, in 

general good guidance for us—because you are going to get a lot 

of requests—for us to call on you and your services? 

Mr. MISSAL. In that situation, if you think you have reached a 

dead end or the information you are getting is not correct or you 

just do not think it is what you are looking for, then that could be 

something the IG should be looking into. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Just one final question—it is a question that 

everybody has been asking here today—on transparency. I am sure 

you saw the October 2 USA Today report naming you to be tapped 

by the President as the new VA watchdog. It said that the agency 

and the IG’s Office has been criticized following a USA Today report in March of this year that showed that the VA Inspector General ‘‘had failed to publicly release the findings of more than 140 

investigations of veterans health care, including cases of harm and 

death.’’ I think that is why you are seeing such a concern among 

everybody here on transparency. 

What are going to be the principles, if you are confirmed, that 

will guide you in terms of transparency? Why do you think 140 investigations of veterans health care, which I am assuming were requested by the Congress, were not publicly released? 

Mr. MISSAL. I do not know the specific details of that, but my 

preference would be to err on the side of disclosure as opposed to 

nondisclosure, because I agree that transparency is a really critical 

issue and it is one to increase the trust and confidence that people 

will have in the Office of Inspector General. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Finally, on my previous round or theme of 

questions, if I do get to the point where this Choice Act implementation in my State continues to be completely screwed up, would 

you commit to me to undertake an investigation if it was the apVerDate Mar 15 2010 16:34 Aug 03, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00292 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 Z:\ACTIVE\050515N.TXT PAULIN
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propriate time—and I am not saying it is right now, but it will be 

at some point—to do that? 

Mr. MISSAL. I will. 

Senator SULLIVAN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Senator Boozman. 

Senator BOOZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the discussion about, you know, conveying feelings, talking to the Committee 

was really a good one. The strength that the Committee has as 

being probably the least partisan Committee in Congress, as you 

can tell by Senator Blumenthal and Senator Isakson. They do a 

tremendous job of leading that way, leading together. So, again, I 

hope that you will commit to when in doubt, come forward. You can 

get great advice from these guys, get great advice from the Committee. As you said earlier, you know, it is all about serving veterans, serving the public. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISAKSON. Thank you, Senator Boozman. 

We appreciate your time and your commitment and your willingness to serve, and we will have a confirmation hearing at the appropriate time, we have had the hearing today, but we will have 

a vote at the appropriate time. I do not know when that will be 

exactly, but it will be at the appropriate time. 

Just again to acknowledge Richard Thornburgh’s presence today. 

Mr. Attorney General, we are delighted that you are here today 

and appreciate your support for the nominee and appreciate your 

service to the United States of America. 

To the family, thank you for being good supporters of your husband, your father, and your loved one, because he is going to be 

a busy man if he gets confirmed for this job. 

This hearing stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:48 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. JOHNNY ISAKSON TO MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF

VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 1. As was mentioned at the hearing, since the Department of Veterans 

Affairs (VA) became a cabinet-level agency, each Senate-confirmed Inspector General has had prior experience as an Inspector General or in a leadership role at an 

Inspector General’s office or had extensive experience in Federal criminal investigations. Also, 6 out of 11 of the Senate-confirmed Inspectors General for cabinet-level 

agencies served as the Inspector General of a smaller agency before being elevated 

to the Inspector General for the cabinet-level agency and two others previously held 

leadership positions at an Inspector General’s office. 

A. Without experience at an Inspector General’s office, how steep of a learning 

curve do you think you would face, how would you plan to combat that learning 

curve, and how long do you estimate it would take to become fully proficient in this 

role? 

Response. I do not think it would be a steep learning curve. I have worked with 

Inspectors General offices during my professional career and believe that I have a 

good understanding of the role, objectives and practices of an Inspector General. I 

also believe that my extensive experience in regulatory matters, including conducting internal investigations and inspections and familiarity with accounting principles, will further assist me in getting up to speed as quickly as possible. In addition, I have met with a number of current or former Inspectors General to learn 

more about their experiences and to obtain their guidance on preparing for this position. These meetings have confirmed my belief that I have the experience, skills, 

judgment and temperament to be a highly effective Inspector General. 

290 

If confirmed, I will take a number of steps in the first 90 days. Among other 

things, I will immerse myself at the OIG to familiarize myself better with the policies, practices and priorities of the office. I will also meet with senior management 

at the VA to learn more about their responsibilities, issues and concerns. Moreover, 

I will continue to meet with other Inspectors General to get their input on the position. I will also meet with other government officials with whom I would expect to 

work, including the Office of Special Counsel and the Department of Justice. I believe that these steps will enhance my abilities to serve as the VA Inspector General 

and will assist me in becoming fully proficient in the role as quickly as possible. 

B. Since being nominated, what steps have you already taken to prepare for possibly serving as the VA Inspector General? 

Response. Since being nominated, I have done a number of things to prepare for 

the possibility of serving as the VA Inspector General. These matters include extensive reading of publicly available information about the VA and the VA OIG. I have 

also familiarized myself further with applicable statutes and regulations, including 

the Inspectors General Act of 1978, as amended. In addition, I have spoken with 

several current and former Inspectors General. Further, I have met with a number 

of people at the VA and the VA OIG about their work. All such meetings were limited to publicly available information. 

C. What additional steps do you believe you need to take to ensure your ability 

to perform the duties of the Inspector General? 

Response. Aside from the steps I intend to take in the first 90 days as outlined 

above, I will also become active in the Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity 

and Efficiency (‘‘CIGIE’’). One of the goals of CIGIE is to develop policies, standards, 

and approaches to aid Inspectors General. I will also meet with members of the OIG 

staff who are located outside of the Washington, DC area. In addition, I will meet 

with Veterans Service Organizations to obtain their input on relevant issues. 

D. Would you please describe how well you believe your extensive experience at 

K&L Gates would translate into serving as the VA Inspector General, including 

what you consider to be the similarities and the differences between conducting internal investigations and audits for clients and serving as the watchdog for a large 

agency? 

Response. I believe that my experience at K&L Gates will serve me extremely 

well in serving as the VA Inspector General. There are great similarities in conducting investigations in the public and private sectors, as the goals for both are 

to be thorough, objective, fair, timely and accurate. As an example, I was appointed 

by the Department of Justice to conduct an investigation of New Century Financial. 

I conducted that investigation in a similar manner to the ones I conducted on behalf 

of clients of K&L Gates. I also expect my management of large investigations will 

be transferable to serving as the VA Inspector General. 

There are also similarities in audits, as both the public and private sectors audits 

provide for accountability and transparency. However, Inspectors General apply 

Government Auditing Standards, which are different than those used in the private 

sector. I believe that I would be able to manage effectively the audit function of the 

VA OIG using Government Auditing Standards. 

Question 2. Last year, the VA Inspector General received 38,098 hotline contacts 

identifying areas of possible fraud, waste, and abuse. The Inspector General currently has 219 open reports with 1,372 open and unimplemented recommendations 

to VA. This does not even address the new issues that seem to arise daily at VA. 

What are your plans and priorities, not only for these outstanding issues, but 

where will you begin to allocate resources to investigate issues at VA? On day one, 

where will you focus your efforts? 

Response. Addressing the large number of hotline contacts would be a priority for 

me. I would promptly determine how they are currently being handled and the resources devoted to them. I would also determine how they are being prioritized. I 

would further determine if some of the hotline contacts should be more appropriately handled by others at the VA and if so, refer them to the appropriate group. 

In addition, I would determine whether there were additional resources within the 

OIG that could be assigned to handle them. 

Question 3. As you are aware, the Veterans Health Administration (VHA) continues to be in the news because of the long wait to receive care. The Committee, 

in part, relies on the Inspector General’s reports on VHA as an independent voice 

in conducting oversight of the Department. VA’s Inspector General not only provides 

oversight of waste, fraud, and abuse problems but also examines whether programs 

that deliver care to veterans are providing that care effectively and in a timely 

manner. 

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A. Please describe any experience you have in conducting health care investigations, including details about any relevant investigations and the resolution of those 

investigations. 

Response. The most recent health care investigation in which I am currently involved is particularly relevant to the work of the OIG. This confidential matter is 

for a health care company that employs hundreds of physicians across the country. 

The primary issue is whether there was over-utilization of a test for a particular 

form of cancer. I led an investigation to determine whether the test was medically 

necessary for a large number of patients. This included conducting an audit of the 

utilization of the test and hiring medical experts to analyze the medical necessity 

of the tests. The investigation concluded that a few physicians over utilized the test. 

These physicians were held accountable and their employment with the company 

was terminated. 

I have also been involved in other investigations and matters related to issues 

similar to those covered by the VHA, including matters related to the application 

for the approval of drugs by the FDA, medical research, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) and other medical procedures. All investigations were successfully completed. 

B. Please describe how you believe any of the investigations you conducted would 

help prepare you to conduct oversight of VHA. 

Response. I believe that these investigations have given me a broad knowledge 

of health care issues and matters. They have also given me exposure to large and 

complex heath care organizations. Further, they have given me a better understanding of health care professionals and the culture of health care organizations. 

C. Please describe what experience in your background would be relevant to ensure VHA’s programs are providing care effectively, including details about relevant 

investigations you have conducted. 

Response. Aside from my knowledge gained in working on the health care matters 

described above, I also have experience in consulting with health care experts on 

issues of patient care. I would expect to rely as appropriate on health care professionals on the delivery of effective health care. 

D. In your view, what experience in your background would be relevant to conducting oversight of VHA’s access issues? Please describe any relevant investigations you have conducted. 

Response. There are a number of matters in my background that would be relevant to conducting oversight of VHA’s access issues. First, my experience in conducting investigations would be valuable if additional investigations need to be conducted. Second, my knowledge of accounting principles and audits will be important 

in testing the access issue. Third, I have been involved in following up on recommendations to make sure they have been properly implemented. This experience 

will be useful in determining whether the previously made recommendations on the 

access issues have been implemented fully and effectively. 

E. Would you please share your priorities for providing oversight of VHA’s ability 

to deliver care? 

Response. If confirmed, one of my priorities would be to focus on the VHA’s ability 

to deliver quality health care promptly. I would quickly take the necessary steps to 

assess which areas need the greatest attention. Based on published reports, three 

areas related to the VHA that deserve continued attention are the access to quality 

health care, the delivery of mental health services and the prescription of drugs. 

Question 4. You mentioned at the hearing the need for independence in a successful Inspector General and were asked for a specific example where you had to be 

both tenacious and independent, including against people you work for. You cited 

that you were appointed to examine the bankruptcy proceeding of New Century Financial. Would you please expound upon that answer by describing how you demonstrated independence and aggressiveness, including any specific examples? 

Response. I was appointed by the Department of Justice to be the independent 

Examiner in the New Century Financial bankruptcy proceeding. My appointment 

was confirmed by the bankruptcy judge, who was satisfied with my independence 

to conduct the investigation. I worked aggressively on the matter and completed a 

large and complex matter in the time period required by the judge. I ensured that 

the integrity and independence of the investigation process were maintained, despite the fact that others, including the Department of Justice, the Creditors Committee and the Securities and Exchange Commission were also conducting investigations on the same subject. The report of findings of the investigation that I issued 

was fair, objective, thorough and accurate. 

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Question 5. In your written testimony, you made this statement: ‘‘Recent public 

reports from the Office of Inspector General and elsewhere underscore the need for 

significant and prompt improvements in the way the VA is servicing our Veterans. 

If confirmed, I look forward to playing a role in strengthening the programs, policies 

and culture of the VA.’’ Would you please expound on what you believe needs improving, what programs need strengthening, and what role you would envision playing in changing the culture at VA? 

Response. The reports to which I was referring include the ones related to access 

to health care, scheduling practices, integrity of data, delivery of mental health services, prescription drugs, treatment of whistleblowers and backlog of benefits. I would 

do a number of things in an attempt to improve the culture at the VA. Among other 

actions, I would prioritize creating an environment where whistleblowers feel comfortable that their concerns are being fairly and effectively addressed. Another step 

is to try to anticipate issues before they become large problems through vigorous 

inspections and examinations. I would also meet with senior management to get 

their initial perspectives on potential issues, while maintaining my independence. 

This could assist in identifying at an early stage what otherwise could turn into a 

wide scale problem. Accountability of individuals is also a key part to enhancing the 

culture. If there is a suspicion of criminal conduct, then individuals need to be investigated and prosecuted as appropriate. Criminal prosecutions serve as a strong 

deterrent. In addition, it may be appropriate to identify individuals in OIG administrative reports. This would be done as appropriate, consistent with fundamental 

fairness and privacy issues. 

Question 6. One of the many issues when I took over as Chairman was the lack 

of criminal indictments for employees engaging in unlawful behavior at VA. As you 

know, one of the first indictments has since occurred at the Charlie Norwood VA 

Hospital in Augusta, GA. I believe very strongly that more of these employees who 

are knowingly committing fraud at VA need to be referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution. 

A. Would you please describe any experience you have in making criminal referrals or in investigations that resulted in criminal prosecutions? 

Response. When I worked at the SEC, I investigated and prosecuted several matters that were referred to the Department of Justice for criminal prosecutions. Perhaps the most well known prosecution was U.S. v. Carpenter et al., 484 U.S. 19 

(1987), a Supreme Court criminal case which helped define the law of insider trading. Since I have been in the private sector, I have been involved in many criminal 

investigations and prosecutions. For example, I was Lead Counsel for the Examiner 

in the WorldCom bankruptcy proceeding. In that capacity, I worked closely with the 

Criminal Division of the Department of Justice, which successfully prosecuted a 

number of individuals. I also worked with the Criminal Division of the Department 

of Justice when I was the Examiner in the New Century Financial bankruptcy proceeding. I have further represented witnesses in a number of other investigations 

that resulted in criminal prosecutions. 

B. What will your philosophy be, if confirmed, when investigating employees and 

making referrals to the Department of Justice? 

Response. If confirmed, my philosophy will be to refer employees to the Department of Justice for criminal investigations and potential prosecutions if appropriate. 

Criminal prosecutions can serve as a strong deterrent. I would also promote a 

strong working relationship with the Criminal Division of the Department of Justice. 

Question 7. As you may know, some concerns were raised about whether the prior 

acting Inspector General may have changed a conclusion in an Inspector General 

report at the request of VA leadership. 

A. Under what circumstances do you think that would be appropriate? 

Response. The work and reports of the OIG need to be independent. However, it 

may be appropriate to get input from others at the VA about a report if it promotes 

the accuracy or fairness of the report and does not negatively impact the integrity 

of the OIG investigative process. The conclusion of any report issued by the OIG 

should be that of only the OIG, as supported by the findings of the OIG. 

B. What steps would you take to ensure that the work of the Inspector General’s 

office is not unduly influenced by VA leadership? 

Response. I would make sure that there are constant reminders within the office 

concerning the importance of the independence of the OIG. I would also assess and 

enhance as appropriate any training of the OIG staff. I would further take steps 

to ensure that I am notified if there is even an appearance of a lack of independence. 

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RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. DEAN HELLER TO MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF

VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 8. Mr. Missal, many Members of this Committee wrote to the VA Secretary regarding the Inspector General report about the Veterans Benefits Administration employees abusing their authority. 

What do you think is the best way to hold these employees accountable in light 

of the Inspector General’s findings? 

Response. I have read the Inspector General Report about the relocation of Veterans Benefits Administration employees, Diana Rubens and Kimberly Graves. The 

Report noted that criminal referrals were made against both Ms. Rubens and Ms. 

Graves. This is a strong and effective way to hold these employees accountable. Any 

further action to hold them accountable would come from the Department. 

Question 9. As Co-Chair of the VA Backlog Working Group, one of my top issues 

on this Committee is eliminating the VA claims backlog. The VA Regional Office in 

Nevada had some serious leadership problems, and the Inspector General’s Office 

assisted in identifying poor management as part of the problem. 

If you are confirmed to this position, will you commit to holding every VA employee accountable and identifying when poor leadership or poor employee performance is contributing to untimely benefits or health care? 

Response. I commit to identifying any VA employee whose poor leadership or poor 

performance contributes to untimely benefits or health care, consistent with privacy 

rules and fundamental fairness. I also commit to making any appropriate recommendation against an individual who exhibits poor leadership or engages in poor 

performance that contributes to untimely benefits or health care. 

If finding such an instance, how will you follow-up at these facilities to ensure 

that reforms at the leadership levels have been made? 

The audit and inspection functions review all facilities on a periodic basis. The 

implementation of any recommendation of reform of leadership should be reviewed 

as appropriate as part of the next audit or inspection. In addition, for the implementation of a recommendation for a significant leadership position, there should be a 

more prompt follow-up review. 

Question 10. What have you identified as the top three issues at the VA that need 

to be closely monitored by the Inspector General’s office? 

Response. Among the most significant issues to be closely monitored by the Inspector General’s office are (i) rebuilding the trust and confidence in the VA and 

the OIG. This would include focusing on the prompt delivery of quality health care, 

the reduction of the backlog of disability claims, mental health services and prescription drugs; (ii) creating an improved environment in which whistleblowers have 

confidence that their concerns will be fairly and effectively considered by the OIG 

and that their identities will be protected from disclosure. I also will take the necessary steps to ensure that whistleblowers are fully aware of their right to be free 

from retaliation for making protected disclosures and how to seek redress from appropriate authorities if retaliation occurs; and (iii) anticipating issues before they 

become larger problems. Some of the ways to do this is through vigorous inspections 

and examinations and meeting with senior management. 

Question 11. How would you approach the task of leading the Inspector General’s 

office? 

Response. I would lead with the overriding principle that I treat others as I would 

like to be treated. I would lead by example and emphasize integrity and respect for 

others. I would have a great deal of personal interaction with my team and communicate regularly with them about my ideas, expectations and goals. I would promote 

strong teamwork and would provide opportunities for professional growth and advancement. I would always be open to ideas from various sources, including our Veterans, VSOs and Congress, on how to improve the quality of work and processes 

of the OIG. 

RESPONSE TO ADDITIONAL POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. DEAN

HELLER TO MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. 

DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

At the nomination hearing, this dialog took place between you and Senator 

Rounds: 

Senator ROUNDS. My time has expired, but I would ask one last question, 

a yes or a no answer, I believe. You are going to need a plan. Would you 

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commit that you will bring back to this Committee a plan for putting this 

in order so that you can actually lay out for the Secretary a pathway forward so that he can actually get things done in there? Would you commit 

to providing a plan of how you can be an effective IG when the time comes? 

Mr. MISSAL. Yes. 

Your VA liaison later provided this information to the Committee: 

‘‘Mr. Missal did commit to have a plan when the time comes. It will be 

after his confirmation and after he gets into his job to learn more about the 

issues.’’ 

Senator Rounds then followed up with a posthearing question that in part included this request: 

‘‘Would you commit to providing a plan on how you can be an effective 

[Inspector General] before we take a nomination vote?’’ 

Question 12. The response discussed the steps you have taken to get a better understanding of the role of the Inspector General but does not include such a plan. 

Would you please provide that plan for the Committee? 

Response. My plan to be an effective Inspector General includes a number of different action items. If confirmed, the more significant steps I would take at the outset would include the following. I would immerse myself at the OIG to better understand the policies, practices and priorities of the office. I would make any improvements and changes that are appropriate and necessary based on my assessment. I 

would also review the current investigation, audit and healthcare inspection plans 

of the OIG. A particular focus would be on any significant plans related to the 

prompt delivery of quality health care, the backlog of disability claims, the provision 

of mental health services and the prescription of drugs. I would further assess the 

adequacy of the resources and technology of the OIG and determine whether additional funding or enhancements are necessary for the OIG to better meet its mission. 

In addition, I would meet with senior management of the VA to learn more about 

their responsibilities, issues and concerns. It is important to have a strong, but independent, working relationship with VA senior management to enhance the effectiveness of the OIG. I would also review with VA senior management the status of the 

implementation of the more important and older outstanding OIG recommendations. 

I would also meet with other Inspectors General to obtain the benefit of their experiences, including best practices on issues of mutual interest. I would further meet 

with other government officials with whom I would expect to work, including the 

Office of Special Counsel and the Department of Justice, to discuss priorities and 

to promote an effective working relationship. Moreover, I would meet with Veterans 

Service Organizations to obtain their perspectives and views. 

Whistleblowers should play an important role for the OIG. I would examine the 

processes and practices of communications with whistleblowers. It is critically important to have an environment in which whistleblowers feel comfortable in expressing their concerns and that they have confidence that their concerns will be fairly 

and effectively addressed. I would further review how the OIG hotline contacts are 

being handled. I recognize that there are a large number of contacts to the hotline 

and would determine how best to address them. This would include speaking with 

other agencies that have a large number of contacts to their hotlines and identifying 

best practices. 

As I engage in these steps, I will have further information for consideration. I expect that the action plan will be continually supplemented and enhanced. 

RESPONSE TO POSTHEARING QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY HON. MIKE ROUNDS TO MICHAEL J. MISSAL, NOMINEE TO BE THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF

VETERANS AFFAIRS

Question 13. Would you commit to providing a plan on how you can be an effective 

IG before we take a nomination vote? Specifically, the Committee would like to 

know what steps you’ve taken to get an understanding of an IG’s role. 

Response. I have taken a number steps to get a better understanding of an IG’s 

role. Among other things, I have done extensive reading of publicly available information about the VA and the VA OIG. This includes the OIG’s Semiannual Reports 

to Congress, Reports of Investigations, Reports of VHA Audits and Evaluations, Reports of VBA Audits and Evaluations, Congressional Testimony and news reports. 

I have also familiarized myself further with applicable statutes and regulations, including the Inspectors General Act of 1978, as amended. In addition, I have met 

295 

with several current and former Inspectors General. Their insights on the position 

have been invaluable. Further, I have met with a number of people at the VA and 

the VA OIG about their work. All such meetings were limited to publicly available 

information. 

Question 14. How would you plan to manage the massive open and pending reports? 

Response. I assume the question refers to the large number of recommendations 

that have not been implemented. I would first review the recommendations and 

prioritize the more significant and older ones. I would then meet with senior management to get an understanding of the timetable for the implementation of the outstanding recommendations. I would further follow up with senior management on 

the implementation plan. 

Question 15. What are your strategic audit and improvement goals for health care 

delivery, benefit processing, financial management, information management, and 

procurement practices? 

Response. If confirmed, one of my priorities would be to review in detail the current audit and inspection plans for health care delivery, benefit processing, financial 

management, information management and procurement practices. I would also review any recommendations that have been made by the OIG, but have not yet been 

implemented. I would further have discussions with senior management to understand better their priorities and plans for improving health care delivery, benefit 

processing, financial management, information management and procurement practices. Once I obtain all relevant information, I would make any changes or enhancements to the audit and inspection plans for those areas. 

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