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THE ROLE OF SMALL BUSINESS IN RECOVERY 

ACT CONTRACTING 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MAY 21, 2009 

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana, Chair 

OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine, Ranking Member 

JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

TOM HARKIN, Iowa 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

EVAN BAYH, Indiana 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire 

KAY HAGAN, North Carolina 

CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri 

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana 

JOHN THUNE, South Dakota 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia 

ROGER WICKER, Mississippi 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

DONALD R. CRAVINS, JR., Democratic Staff Director 

WALLACE K. HSUEH, Republican Staff Director 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Landrieu, The Honorable Mary L., Chair, Committee on Small Business, 

and a United States Senator from Louisiana .................................................... 1 

Snowe, The Honorable Olympia J., Ranking Member, Committee on Small 

Business, and a United States Senator from Maine ......................................... 3 

WITNESS TESTIMONY

Jordan, Joe, Associate Administrator, Government Contracting and Business 

Development, U.S. Small Business Administration .......................................... 5 

Franco, Gerardo, Chief, Procurement Assistance Divisions Office, Office of 

Small and Disadvantaged Business Development, Department of Transportation ..................................................................................................................... 13 

Arnold, Sharon, Owner, SSACC, Inc. ..................................................................... 29 

Flynn, Joe, President, Association of Procurement Technical Assistance Centers (APTAC) ........................................................................................................ 35 

Medina, Sylvia, President, North Wind, Inc. ........................................................ 43 

Daytner, Theresa, President, Daytner Construction Group ................................. 54 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Arnold, Sharon 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 29 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 30 

Daytner, Theresa 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 54 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 57 

Flynn, Joe 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 35 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 38 

Attachments ...................................................................................................... 41 

Franco, Gerardo 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 13 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 15 

Jordan, Joe 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 8 

Attachments ...................................................................................................... 12 

Landrieu, The Honorable Mary L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Medina, Sylvia 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 43 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 46 

Snowe, The Honorable Olympia J. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 3 

(1) 

THE ROLE OF SMALL BUSINESS IN 

RECOVERY ACT CONTRACTING 

THURSDAY, MAY 21, 2009 

UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:19 a.m., in Room 

SR–428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mary L. Landrieu 

(chairman of the committee) presiding. 

Present: Senators Landrieu and Snowe. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MARY L. LANDRIEU, CHAIRMAN, AND A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM 

LOUISIANA 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Good morning. I would like to call the 

Small Business Committee of the Senate to order. I appreciate our 

witnesses this morning and looking forward to this hearing. 

Let me begin by apologizing. We were late because of a 10:00 

vote. And, unfortunately, I am going to have to slip out in about 

30 minutes to testify before another committee, that a bill I am 

sponsoring is before the Commerce Committee this morning. But 

we are going to try to keep the hearing moving, and we think our 

subject is very, very important. I am going to begin with an opening statement, and then ask my ranking member, and then other 

members may be joining us as we move forward. 

This committee has been called to examine the role of the Federal Government in contracting with small business, and to hear 

from not only small business advocates, but from the Small Business Administration about how the Federal Government is meeting 

our obligations, our responsibility, and our own internal goals that 

we set to contract with small businesses. So I thank you all for 

coming today. 

This committee has held three hearings recently to assess access 

to credit issues by small business. And today we turn to another 

important issue, which is, is small business being able to sell goods 

and services required by the Federal Government to help not only 

sustain them through these difficult times, but actually to bring 

value to the Federal Government. 

It is one of the principal oversight responsibilities of this committee to ensure that Main Street businesses throughout America, 

small businesses that are in all of our districts and states, have the 

opportunity to sell their products, their ideas, their services to the 

Federal Government. Access to the federal market has made it posVerDate Nov 24 2008 11:49 Jan 03, 2011 Jkt 051160 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\51160.TXT SHAUN PsN: DPROCT
2 

sible for many of America’s Main Street businesses to not only survive but to thrive, to grow, to prosper. Many of those business owners have told stories before this committee in the past. 

For example, Garnett Newcombe, owner of Human Potential Consultants, took a business from a high of $500,000 revenue to 

more than $14 million through her ability to bid and secure federal 

contracts. And then there is Lee Brown—Leah Brown, who decided 

to open a small business while grieving the loss of a close family 

member. She took that loss, turned it into something positive, motivated herself to open a business that supports the development of 

drugs to fight the same illness that took her family member’s life. 

Having access to the federal marketplace allowed her company to 

grow and expand. 

These are just two stories of hundreds that we have heard from 

small business owners, that when they had access to federal contracts, they were able to expand, hire more workers, and expand 

their reach. 

There are many reasons why giving small business a chance to 

compete in the federal marketplace is important. Here are just a 

few. 

First, the Federal Government is the largest single purchaser in 

the world. According to the latest available Small Business Goaling 

Report, the Federal Government spent more than $378 billion on 

goods and services. According to our records, more than 83 billion 

of that was spent with small business. 

Second, a strong and diverse supplier base is critical to the government getting the best value from suppliers and to the American 

taxpayers getting the most out of their tax dollars. 

Third, having strong small businesses in communities large and 

small help to strengthen towns and cities one employee at a time. 

Fourth, government contracting to small business is important to 

national security. Since World War II, the government has made 

a concerted effort to ensure that it has multiple suppliers for its 

largest needs. By contracting out government projects to small 

business, we ensure that the country is not vulnerable to only a 

few suppliers. 

In these very challenging economic times, increasing contracting 

opportunities for small business will help them to keep their doors 

open to create new jobs and to get America back to work. These 

small businesses have especially been hit hard by the economic 

downturn. According to the Automatic Data Processing, Inc.’s, 

ADP, Small Business Report, more than 80 percent of job losses 

since November come from small and medium-size businesses, 

which this chart clearly demonstrates. 

For this trend to change, small businesses need access to capital 

and they need increased sales volume, either from the private sector or from the public sector. This hearing is about what we can 

do as the Federal Government to increase the opportunity for federal sales volume to small businesses. So we are anxious to hear 

from the Department of Transportation and the Small Business 

Administration, one that has oversight responsibility of all contracting through all federal agencies, and the other from the department that seems to have the most money available right now 

for contracting with small business. 

3 

President Obama has made this one of his top priorities. I know 

that Administrator Mills is also very committed to us reaching our 

goals. So I am looking forward to the first panel’s testimony. Our 

second panel will include three business owners and an association 

that will tell us how they have been impacted, or not yet impacted, 

by federal Recovery contract provisions. 

So in closing, we need to keep the big picture in mind when we 

talk about federal contracting opportunities for small businesses. 

We are here to make sure that small businesses are as strong as 

they can be and that they are leading the way as we come out of 

this recession. We can help them in Congress in any number of 

ways. One of the more direct and immediately obvious ways is for 

the Federal Government to do its job, as Senator Snowe knows, to 

give them opportunities to compete in this time. 

So that is really the essence of our hearing today, and I turn to 

Ranking Member Snowe for her opening remarks. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE OLYMPIA J. 

SNOWE, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MAINE 

Senator SNOWE. Thank you very much, Chair Landrieu, for holding this very vital hearing this morning during our nation’s Small 

Business Week and ensuring how small businesses can access their 

fair share. Roughly $575 billion in spending is still available within 

the stimulus package, otherwise known as the American Recovery 

and Reinvestment Act. In our respective leadership roles in this 

committee, Chair Landrieu and I firmly believe that the Federal 

Government must unleash the job creation potential of small businesses to drive our nation’s economic recovery. 

I have to think that it sounds like a broken record, that we have 

had so many hearings on this question, and hopefully we can come 

to a final resolution as to how we can open the doors of opportunity 

for small businesses through federal contracting. 

This morning, we will probe whether the Federal Government is 

doing all it can to provide small contractors with the necessary 

tools, technical assistance, knowledge to which they can actively 

participate in the stimulus procurement opportunities. I supported 

this legislation back in February because I felt that it would 

achieve a critical equilibrium of creating jobs and assisting those 

displaced by the economic crisis through no fault of their own. 

Our nation is still in the throes of a very deep recession and the 

Labor Department has reported this week that the total number of 

unemployed jarring jobless benefits has risen to a record 6.56 million Americans. Since time is of the essence, the White House estimates that nearly 75 percent of stimulus funds will be committed 

by August of 2010. Well, now it has been 94 days since the Recovery Act was signed into law, and according to the administration, 

small business contractors across the country have received only 

10.3 percent of the total stimulus dollars spent. And that means 

today, and looking at this chart here, large businesses are roughly 

getting 90 percent of our nation’s Recovery dollars even though 

small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employers in the 

country, employing half the employees across America, representing three-quarters of net new jobs on an annual basis. 

4 

This is simply unacceptable. I hope if anything that is learned 

from this hearing is that small businesses deserve their fair share 

of federal funds. That is at least 23 percent of federal prime contracting dollars throughout the entire Recovery Act process, and 

this is a good time to start. 

Furthermore, my home state of Maine has roughly received 1.2 

billion stimulus funding, including 130 million in highway development and bridge repair and 42 million for energy weatherization, 

for example. I am vexed as to why, according to the SBA, Maine 

small businesses have received zero Recovery Act dollars in terms 

of federal contracts. 

As Ranking Member of this committee, I have long been dismayed by the myriad ways that government agencies have repeatedly time and again egregiously failed to meet its statutory goal of 

awarding the 23 percent of all contracting dollars to small businesses. So the key question I pose this morning is why, since we 

have a 23 percent contracting goal, are only 10.3 percent of the 

stimulus dollars so far been awarded to small businesses? It is relatively early in the game. There is still time to make sure that this 

gets done right. But I must confess that I am not encouraged by 

the results thus far. 

So it continues to confound me while federal agencies consistently fail to meet its government-wide goals, and for that matter, 

why it continuously falls short of its targets: contracts to women, 

service disabled veterans, the businesses located in distress, low-income areas known as HUBZones. 

These pernicious trends must be reversed. And it is why Chair 

Landrieu and I sent a letter yesterday to all of our nation’s governors, requesting they coordinate with the Federal Government to 

ensure that small businesses are aware of and are able to compete 

for government opportunities in the Recovery Act. 

We also work very closely with Senator Cardin, included in the 

stimulus provisions, to reform the SBA Surety Bond Program. As 

a result of the financial crisis, surety companies were rejecting 

bond applications because the applicants, usually contractors in the 

construction industry, were unable to show they had adequate financing. Our provision in the stimulus temporarily increases the 

SBA guarantees for participating sureties from 2 million to 5 million, which should also help small firms participate in growing our 

economy. 

So this morning, I look forward to hearing from both the Small 

Business Administration, Department of Transportation who received almost 47 billion Recovery funding—on specific and realistic 

solutions for achieving contracting goals for small businesses. In 

Fiscal Year 2007, the Department of Transportation awarded 

roughly 50 percent of its eligible contracting dollars to small firms. 

So I hope to learn today what practices the DOT is using to assist small business contractors and how those procedures can assist 

other agencies, like the Department of Defense, the nation’s largest 

purchaser, to learn to better allocate a fair share of its contracting 

dollars to small businesses. At a time when our economy could not 

be more fragile and when job creation and economic growth could 

not be more front and center on the American agenda, the SBA, 

the DOT and all the remaining federal purchasing agencies have 

5 

a pivotal opportunity to lead small businesses through this door of 

opportunity and to the realm of the federal contracting arena that 

will benefit all Americans in job creation. 

So, Chair Landrieu, I thank you for holding this hearing today 

and giving this perspective. I am looking forward to hearing from 

the witnesses and seeing how we can develop a bipartisan approach to get this job, once and for all, done on behalf of small 

businesses. Thank you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Jordan, if you would start, please. And let me just say that 

he is the associate administrator for Government Contracting and 

Business Development for the SBA. 

Joe, if you could begin by giving just a brief 30-second background about your experience and how long you have been in the 

position, and then go into your testimony, if you would. 

STATEMENT OF JOE JORDAN, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, 

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. JORDAN. Sure, absolutely. 

Chair Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe and members of the 

Committee, I am Joseph Jordan, Associate Administrator for Government Contracting and Business Development at the Small Business Administration. I was appointed in March and have been on 

board since then. Prior to that, I worked in the private sector. I did 

consulting for a firm, McKinsey & Company, working primarily in 

our purchasing and supply management practice, as well as working with some state governments, including Governor Baldacci in 

Maine, looking at ways to help reduce cost and capture efficiencies. 

Before that, and before getting my MBA, I worked in a variety of 

industries and marketing, public relations and television, as well 

as some strategic consulting. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

I am honored to be testifying before you both today to discuss 

SBA’s role in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act’s contracting efforts. I know Administrator Mills testified before you recently and discussed the SBA’s programs related to recovery. 

Today, I want to focus on the procurement side. 

The SBA is working hard to ensure that America’s small businesses have a fair share of Recovery Act contracts and subcontracts. So far, Recovery Act contracting dollars to small businesses have been steadily increasing week to week. Although the 

obligation of contracts is in the early stages, dollars to small businesses currently total about $389 million, which is an increase of 

over $50 million since last week. We are working with all federal 

agencies in a variety of ways to meet the goal of issuing 23 percent 

of contracting dollars to small businesses. 

First, we work closely with the Office of Federal Procurement 

Policy to highlight small business performance programs in the 

guidance for Recovery procurement competitions. Guidance issued 

by the Office of Management and Budget on April 3rd highlights 

the critical role small businesses play in stimulating economic 

6 

growth and creating jobs. The guidance makes clear that all small 

business statutes and regulations must be followed. 

In addition, we are partnering with the General Services Administration to disseminate, via the Internet, information regarding 

large contracts that are available to small businesses. The Federal 

Business Opportunities Web site, or fbo.gov, lists all solicitations 

for Recovery contracts. SBA’s Recovery Web site also links to that 

Web site as well as grants.gov. 

I am also very pleased that small businesses can now find Recovery Act specific subcontracting opportunities at sba.gov/subnet. 

This is an important new resource which we announced this week 

throughout our subcontracting opportunity network. At the same 

time, we are reminding larger businesses of tools such as the Dynamic Small Business Search, which allow them to search, find and 

partner with the best small businesses for their subcontracting opportunities. 

SBA’s Web site is very useful information for small businesses 

searching for Recovery contracts, including links to the sites mentioned above and a frequently asked questions document, available 

in both English and Spanish, that provides detailed information on 

Recovery Act contracting. We also intend to make other improvements to the contracting portion of our Web site in the coming 

months as new developments arise in connection with the Recovery 

contracts. 

All of SBA’s Procurement Center representatives, or PCRs, have 

sent letters to the directors of their contracting offices offering assistance in finding small businesses for their Recovery contracts. 

Examples of recent contracting requests for proposals include small 

business set-asides by the Army, HUBZone set-asides by the Department of Labor and the Air Force, service-disabled veterans setasides by the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, and competitive 8(a) 

contracts by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, just to name a few. 

At the local level, our field staff is engaged with state and local 

officials, reminding them of the benefits of using small businesses 

for Recovery work. In fact, I was able to personally speak with our 

field office district directors yesterday since they are here in Washington for National Small Business Week. Those efforts were supported by letters sent from Administrator Mills to all the nation’s 

governors, urging them to use small businesses for the products 

and services they procure when contracting with Recovery Act dollars. And I thank you both for the letter that you sent as well to 

the governors yesterday. 

Additionally, there are many field events occurring weekly relating to contracting and Recovery work. These events cover everything from helping firms locate Recovery contracts to basic training 

on how to do business with the government. 

Since the Recovery Act was signed into law, the SBA has directly 

participated in many events across the country. Examples of our 

outreach and training efforts include several workshops across Louisiana sponsored by the Louisiana Department of Economic Development in conjunction with Chairman Landrieu’s office; in North 

Carolina, an Environmental Protection Agency workshop and training on SBA’s small business procurement programs for its program 

managers; a Greater Dallas Asian American Chamber of Commerce 

7 

construction, architecture and engineering forum event, entitled 

Implementation Workshop for the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009; the GSA Heartland region’s Industry Day’s 

Conference in Kansas City, Missouri; an event in Upstate New 

York sponsored by the Greater Syracuse Chamber of Commerce, 

entitled Accelerate CNY. 

The SBA is continuously looking for ways to increase small business participation of federal contracting. The Recovery Act offers 

both unique challenges and opportunities, but we are working to 

see that small businesses will be given the opportunities they deserve and play a key partner in our nation’s economic recovery. 

Thank you very much, and I am pleased to take your questions 

and comments. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jordan follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. Mr. Franco, if you would proceed and just do a 30-minute—second brief introduction. Please not 

30 minutes, 30 second brief introduction of your background. 

Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF GERARDO FRANCO, CHIEF, PROCUREMENT 

ASSISTANCE DIVISIONS OFFICE, OFFICE OF SMALL AND DISADVANTAGED BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, DEPARTMENT OF 

TRANSPORTATION 

Mr. FRANCO. Good morning. My name is Gerardo Franco. I represent the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization 

at the U.S. Department of Transportation. I have been in the Department of Transportation’s Small Business Office for over 17 

years. Prior to that, I was with the USDA, the Department of Agriculture, also in the Small Business Office. So I have about 25 years 

of experience of working with small businesses. And I can tell you 

that right now we are living in very difficult times, but at the same 

time very exciting times because of the many opportunities that we 

see coming down in the future. 

So Chairwoman Landrieu, Ranking Member Snowe, members of 

the Committee, I want to thank you for inviting the Department 

of Transportation to be here today. It is a great honor and a privilege to represent the Department at this hearing. I have written 

prepared remarks that I would like to submit for the record, but 

I would like to briefly state that at the Department of Transportation, we are fully committed to ensuring that small businesses 

continue to be an integral part of all of the contracting and subcontracting opportunities available from the Department of Transportation funds. 

No one better than DOT understands the importance of small 

businesses in the national economy. We have consistently ranked 

among the top federal agencies by SBA in terms of the share of our 

contracting dollars that go to small businesses, including womenowned, minority, HUBZone, service-disabled, and veteran-owned 

businesses. 

As you pointed out, in 2007, half of our procurement dollars went 

to small businesses. What is not reflected in the SBA data is that 

the FAA, which is the largest agency within the Department of 

Transportation, adds another $3 billion to our procurement budget. 

Combined, in 2008, we will be awarding close to $1.7 billion to 

small businesses through our direct contracting program. In addition to our direct contracting program, the Department of Transportation, of course, has a very, very dynamic program known as 

the DOT DBE, Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program, that 

is implemented by the recipients of DOT funds. 

In 2008, more than $3 billion of DOT funded projects went to the 

small business community, particularly the minority and womenowned business community. We know that under ARRA, we are almost doubling the amount of opportunities that will be available. 

We have taken significant steps to ensure that small businesses 

and minority businesses continue to be at the forefront of all this 

effort. 

DOT recently issued guidance to the program administrators, reemphasizing the importance of small businesses. More importantly, 

14 

reemphasizing the fact that the DBE program applies to any new 

funding that comes their way on their ARRA. We have also 

stressed the fact that there are many, many small businesses waiting by the sidelines that need to be engaged in this procurement 

process. We are also increasing our outreach activities and technical assistance efforts at the national level to ensure that DBEs 

are well informed of all the opportunities. 

Now, I would like to mention that included in the Recovery Act, 

there is $20 million set aside for a bonding program to help DBEs 

reach or participate in this extreme additional funds at the state 

and local level. We are working very closely with the SBA to craft 

a program that would allow us to reach and assist DBEs directly. 

We are exploring potential opportunities to leverage the SBA’s existing Surety Bond Guarantee program to benefit DBEs through 

ARRA. 

We are closing in on the final agreement as to how we are going 

to proceed, but everyone realizes that is a very, very critical piece 

of the puzzle to ensure that small businesses not only get the opportunities but also have the access to bonding as they perform 

through the increased levels of opportunities at the state and local 

level. 

With that, I would like to close my remarks and I will remain 

available for any questions that you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Franco follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

I am going to go right into my questions and then leave to testify, and then I will be back. 

But let me just make sure that we are starting with the right 

numbers in terms of what happened last year in 2007, according 

to the numbers that, Mr. Jordan, you must have to monitor the situation. 

According to the report that I have here, when you break down 

the overall goal of 23 percent, according to this report, the Department of Transportation spent 50 percent of its procurement dollars 

with small business. The Department of Defense did 20.4 percent. 

The Department of Energy did 6.2 percent. The Department of 

Health and Human Services, 21.7; NASA, 15; and VA, 32. Now, 

those are not all of the departments, but the largest. 

Is that what your records show, to make sure we are starting off 

on the same page? 

Mr. JORDAN. I do not have the going report in front of me, but 

none of those numbers sounded out of line. They all sounded about 

right, yes. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And is that your number, Mr. Franco? 

Mr. FRANCO. Yes. Yes. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. So you are saying that of all the money 

that the Federal Government spends in the Department of Transportation, 50.8 percent is contracted with small businesses. 

Mr. FRANCO. Yes. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And that is defined as businesses below 

500 employees? 

Mr. FRANCO. It is defined as business meeting the size standards 

based on the North American Industrial Classification Code, which 

vary. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Which vary depending on the class they 

are in. 

Mr. FRANCO. On the industry, correct. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. Go ahead. 

Mr. FRANCO. In the direct contracting program, the Department 

of Transportation follows the Federal Acquisition Regulations and 

all the guidance set forth by the Small Business Administration for 

federal procurements. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. I mean, because if this is the case, and the 

goal is 23 percent, and you are exceeding it substantially by 50 percent, then we could excuse you from this meeting. 

Mr. FRANCO. Well, I will take it. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And we may end up doing that, I do not 

know, because there would be no reason to call people if you are 

meeting your goals. But there evidently is some concern from some 

parts of the small business community that while these numbers 

reflect a robust effort, that there is some gap there. 

The same thing with the Department of Defense. I mean, with 

a little bit more effort, they could reach their 23 percent goal. The 

Department of Energy is concerning at only 6 percent. But the Department of Health and Human Services seems to be almost meeting their goal at 22 percent. And then, of course, you have NASA 

a ways away and VA exceeding theirs at 32. So I am going to be 

exploring the details of those numbers a little bit more. 

20 

But let me ask you, Mr. Jordan, I appreciate the stepped-up efforts, the outreach that you have. I have participated in some of 

that myself. But can you be a bit more specific about how you and 

your office are actually tracking the results of what the agencies 

are doing now? 

When you talked about moving the number from 50 million one 

week to 389 million, could you describe a little bit about how that 

tracking system is working and what you are doing to push those 

numbers as high as possible? 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. And just a small clarification on those 

last numbers. It actually went from 335 to 389, so it went up by 

about 50, but did not jump up by 300. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Oh, I am sorry. Okay. 

Mr. JORDAN. So we are doing a number of things. On the front 

end, the outreach activities with the agencies and the small business community are intended for the agencies to be aware of the 

small businesses that are out there that can provide the highest 

quality, most innovative goods and services that they are going to 

procure. And the outreach to the small businesses is to direct them 

how to be contract ready, to be aware of these shovel-ready 

projects, where to look for procurements that they may qualify for 

so that they can take advantage of those opportunities. 

Because, as you know, one of the complications with the stimulus 

contracting is the speed at which these outlays need to happen. 

And so, we want to make sure that small businesses are ahead of 

the curve, so we are not looking back at the result numbers and 

saying, what could we have done on the front end. And that is 

where we are focusing on a lot of efforts with the PCRs that are 

at each of these agencies who are redoubling their efforts and some 

of the outreach that both of you have been involved with, that you 

refer to. 

Then the tracking. We track the solicitations. All federal solicitations must be posted on fbo.gov for at least 30 days. So we want 

to look there and say, okay, what is the government buying. One 

step before that, we want to look at their Recovery Act plans to see 

in a more broad picture what are they looking to procure and how 

can we educate the small businesses in those industries to get 

ready to provide those goods and services. 

Then the Federal Procurement Data System—Next Generation, 

FPDS–NG. That is the reporting tool that we use to look at all of 

the Federal Government procurement. The stimulus or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act procurements all have an individual tag so they can be tracked and monitored separately. And 

so, that is where Ranking Member Snowe’s chart that shows the 

steady increase of small business contracting percent—although 

the absolute value is, of course, not where we want to get it. That 

is where we are pulling those numbers, and that is where we will 

continue to push. 

So we want to see that steady increase keep going and not plateau until it is at or above the 23 percent. And if we see indications 

that that is not the case, we will redouble again our efforts with 

each of the agencies to make sure that while we want to get this 

money in the hands of businesses to create and retain jobs and 

21 

stimulate the economy, we also want to make sure that small businesses get their fair share. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. My final question is this. Although 

I have not had the opportunity to do this personally, my staff has 

reviewed the resources available at fedbizopps and found it thoroughly confusing, according to their report to me. And I have 

picked up anecdotally when I am out in the field that it is very confusing to people who have tried to access information in that way. 

So have you heard these complaints? If so, what are you doing 

about it? What other resources is the SBA making available for 

small business owners to help them get accurate and timely and 

useful information? 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. Yes, I have absolutely heard those frustrations from small business owners. Wading through the wealth 

of information that is on there to find specifically what is out for 

them is sometimes difficult when you are talking about a small 

business owner who is spending so much of their time trying to 

grow or, in these times, save their business, can be difficult. 

We understand that, and we have developed training resources 

accessible through sba.gov on how to do business with the Federal 

Government and how to use fbo.gov. We do not personally maintain 

that Web site, but we want to make sure that we educate all small 

businesses on how they can quickly and effectively use that so they 

can access all Federal Government procurements. 

Over the last—— 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Who does maintain that Web site? 

Mr. JORDAN. I believe it is the General Services Administration. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Go ahead. I am sorry. 

Mr. JORDAN. And so, over the last couple days at National Small 

Business Week, I held several forums with both small businesses 

and all of our field district directors who are also in town. And we 

are working to develop an even more simple how-to guide for 

fbo.gov so that they can go search, access, compete for, and win 

contracts. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. Senator Snowe. 

Senator SNOWE [presiding]. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Jordan, at these forums that you have held this week, did 

you hear similar complaints about the inability to access information or to navigate the process for federal procurement? 

Mr. JORDAN. We did. And a lot of it is—what we are trying to 

do is what you mentioned in your opening statement, Ranking 

Member Snowe, which was there are best practices out there. A lot 

of it is, both from my private sector and since joining the SBA experience, syndicating those best practices. So educating the small 

businesses on how they can take advantage of the opportunities, 

where are the opportunities that are most pertinent to them, what 

do they need to do. But simplify it. They do not have time to go 

through all the regulations, and that is our job, and that is something we take very seriously. 

Then from the agency’s standpoint, making sure that we are 

making it as easy as possible for them to know which small businesses are out there that are providing the goods and services they 

need, because as we all know, small businesses can really provide 

a level of performance, innovative product and service, quality cusVerDate Nov 24 2008 11:49 Jan 03, 2011 Jkt 051160 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\51160.TXT SHAUN PsN: DPROCT
22 

tomer service. That is great for the Federal Government and great 

for the taxpayer. 

Senator SNOWE. Well, if I was running a small business, what 

would be the first step? For small business out there, what is the 

first step that they would take? 

Mr. JORDAN. So I would first say, Madam Small Business Owner, 

get a DUNS number, then become registered in the Central Contractor Registration. Become registered in the Dynamic Small Business Search so large primes can find you for some of those subcontracting opportunities as well. And all of these you can link to from 

the sba.gov Web site if you go to our contracting session. 

Then I would say go to fbo.gov knowing your North American Industry Classification, your industry code, and search for opportunities there. Go on a regular basis. You can also set it up so it sends 

you the opportunities. And make sure that—you know, selling to 

the government has more similarities to selling to private sector 

enterprises, and a lot of these small businesses understand. So do 

the relationship building, do the networking, do the marketing, understand what these agencies are going to be providing. And absolutely walk into your SBA district office. Every city in America is 

covered by an SBA district field office, and the people there are 

ready, willing and able and help to educate that individual small 

business on what it can do. 

Senator SNOWE. And there is no doubt about it, except that oftentimes they are overwhelmed running their business on a daily 

basis. They have very few employees, and it is just very complicated to think about, okay, now how do I approach the Federal 

Government. Maybe people are not aware that there is a district 

office or procurement technical representatives, which I think are 

very important as well. And I am going to get to that in a moment. 

But I think we need to figure out an easy way for people to access 

this information, whether it is on a Web site or 800 number. 

When you gave this response at the forum, what was the reaction? Did people find that logical? 

Mr. JORDAN. Yes. And I think—as you have heard from Administrator Mills, investment in technology and making the use of 

sba.gov more streamlined is one of her top priorities. And as I talk 

to small businesses and they talk about some of the frustrations 

navigating these different Web sites and tools, and I point them to 

some of the training materials on sba.gov, they say, well, I did not 

realize that was there, is the most frequent response, and we do 

find that is helpful. 

So that is a way, like you are saying, from their own business, 

from their home, through the Internet, they can access a lot of this 

information quickly, and we hope in an effective and distilled manner. 

Senator SNOWE. Well, it is interesting because CNN Money on 

April 20th noted that only 14 percent of small business owners expect a positive impact from the stimulus, but more than twice that 

number, 31 percent, expect the impact of the stimulus to be negative. One area where the Federal Government could obviously build 

support for the stimulus is through contracting. But as CNN 

Money noted, small businesses are wary of the Federal Government’s contracting promises. And they have good reason, because 

23 

they have not had a good experience one way or the other. And 

they have gone through it. They have spent a lot of time, money, 

and effort that oftentimes they can not afford because they are 

small businesses. And so, that in and of itself makes it difficult because they do not have the number of employees. 

So how do you overcome that? Because there has been a terrible 

track record on the part of the Federal Government. The Department of Transportation, as I will get to in a moment, has had a 

very good track record in veterans-owned businesses. But the point 

is, here, that the federal agencies have not been responsive or receptive and that has made it very difficult. 

So we have had a lot of small business owners before this committee that have told their stories, where there has really been a 

breach of trust on the part of agencies, the bundle contracting for 

example. 

So what do we do to overcome that? What are you going to do 

specifically, do you think, that will make a difference? 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. I hear the frustration from small business owners I talk to very frequently, and I understand there is a 

healthy skepticism of the government contracting process. 

First, let me just say in general what we do is the education outreach and then standing by what we say and proving that this is 

an agency that is going to stand by its word. Specifically what we 

are doing is creating simple, synthesized documents that we can 

post on our Web site in an easily accessible manner. It is almost 

a one-stop shopping, so they know where to go, and where all these 

opportunities are, and what they need to do. Like you said, it is 

very helpful when you hear step by step. 

Also, in education, what the process is. When you are talking 

about the contracting process, and especially in the context of today’s hearing with the stimulus and the speed in which these dollars are intended to be obligated, contracting takes a long time. 

Usually four to 24 months is average for the contractor. So educate 

small business on how they can get ahead of that, how they can 

understand how to be contract ready, which you had asked about, 

shovelready; working with the agencies very specifically, data, the 

PCRs that you mentioned; leveraging the socioeconomic programs 

that you also talked about in your opening statement. I believe on 

the next panel we have an 8(a) graduate, and she will probably 

speak to some of the benefits of that business development program. 

So there are a number of things in addition to what the administrator is doing with outreach and what this committee is doing 

with outreach to the governors so that the statelevel funds are also 

going to small businesses. 

Senator SNOWE. Have you yet had a response from the nation’s 

governors regarding the stimulus plan and how they are going to 

incorporate small businesses? Is it too soon to expect a response? 

I mean, I think it is very important to make them aware. 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. 

Senator SNOWE. Because it is critical that we do it now because 

of this number, before it is too late. This is a fair warning here on 

this issue. We just have a healthy dose of skepticism in this community about contracting simply because the Federal Government 

24 

has failed to achieve the 23 percent goal, obviously, and all of the 

individual components. 

So I think that this is a good way to mitigate the issues. It is 

a good start if we can get this turned around and make sure that 

small businesses are included in this process. It means jobs. For 

every $140,000 that is spent in contracting dollars, it means one 

job. I have noticed that small businesses got $94 billion in prime 

contracts, $53 billion in subcontracts. That means saving or retaining 1.1 million jobs. So it is about jobs, and we desperately jobs 

right now. 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. 

Senator SNOWE. And can you learn from the Department of 

Transportation? That is the other thing. What is the track record 

of the various agencies? Half of all the procuring federal agencies 

have yet to achieve the women’s business contracting goal. And I 

am glad the omnibus legislation removed the rule of women’s contracting goals of the SBA because it was not right. They failed to 

meet it in eight years. 

So we have got a lot of work to do. And I know you are just beginning, so this is a good time to start all of this. But can you learn 

on the track record of the Department of Transportation, for all intents and purposes, that says you are moving in the right direction 

here? 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. And I think that the training and syndication of best practices is one of my top priorities. As the administrator has said to you before, she is very much a data and metrics 

person. I come from a world of fact-based analysis. And so, what 

my team is going through now is looking at those percentages you 

talked about, looking at those metrics and saying why. 

There are some reasons why the Department of Energy is at 6 

percent. It is because they outsource to the labs as the prime contractors. And then the subcontracting performance is not that low 

for the Department of Transportation versus the Department of 

Defense. As the chair said, they are different numbers, but the Department of Transportation is not buying tanks and planes. So we 

really want to push on subcontracting there. 

But what we want to see is where are the similarities, and for 

the agencies that are performing well, how can we use their best 

practices and syndicate those to the other agencies to show everybody how it can be done so we exceed that 23 percent. 

Senator SNOWE. So you do an agency-by-agency review? 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. 

Senator SNOWE. How would we go about it? 

Mr. JORDAN. We review and set individual goals with every agency every year and where they fall short on either the 23 percent 

or their socioeconomic goals. They must develop a specific plan that 

is reviewed by our office on how they are going to achieve and meet 

that goal the next year. 

Senator SNOWE. Well, I think with all exceptions on this contracting, go to 2007, the only area where we have achieved it was 

small disadvantaged businesses at this point. Women-owned, 

HUBZones, service-disabled veterans, no. And so, it has not been 

a good track record. 

25 

Mr. Franco, in the Department of Transportation, what would 

you recommend as the best way to attacking this from your perspective and experiences that has worked? 

Mr. FRANCO. Well, first of all, I would like to clarify that the 50 

percent level is a very high standard. On an average, you can expect the Department of Transportation to be somewhere between 

35 to 40 percent. Given the fluctuation in procurements and the 

types of things that we are buying, that could throw the numbers 

5 percent one way or the other. 

If I were to summarize, I would say that not one specific effort 

but a combination of doing a lot of things well. At the Department 

of Transportation, we are highly committed. We have a very experienced staff on board. The support of the program goes all the way 

to the top, and it is filtered down to the working level. 

On a daily basis, we meet with our program officers, with our 

contracting officers. We provide guidance. We do a two-step approach. First, we go out there and make sure that the small business community is engaged, they are familiar with the regulations, 

with the requirements; that they know of the opportunities, they 

know how to do business with the Department of Transportation. 

We participate in a multitude of procurement conferences. We go 

out there and touch the flesh, if you will. 

At the same time, we work internally, making sure that all of 

our procurement officers are well versed on the goals and the requirements of the federal procurement process, and the importance 

of utilizing small businesses first in every procurement. At the Department of Transportation, our office, we review procurement. If 

a requirement is not going to be set aside, they must demonstrate 

to us why. 

So the first option is growing small businesses. I know that the 

Federal Acquisition Regulations provide for that, but in practice, it 

is very, very hard for the contracting officers to understand and realize that sometimes they will get a much better product from a 

small business than they will from a large business. So that is an 

ongoing process that we go through. 

But I think that, overall, is the commitment, if it is at the top 

and it is filtered down. As we speak, we are hosting the monthly 

meeting of the OSDBU directors, our counterparts in every federal 

agency. Secretary LaHood would make presence there. So he is 

making sure that people understand that is important for the Department. 

We also have included in our strategic plan, the long-range plan 

that we prepare every five years, increasing the contracting opportunities for small businesses, and particularly small disadvantaged 

businesses and women-owned businesses is included as a goal. And 

the top management at the Department of Transportation is measured on how well they do in each of the goals that the Department 

establishes as part of the strategic plan. 

So it is a combination of things. I would not be able to point to 

any one, but doing them all and doing them well will give you the 

results. 

Now, it is not all roses. There are many small businesses that 

are not able to perform the types of work that we do. And from our 

perspective, we tell our folks, tell them up front so they can be purVerDate Nov 24 2008 11:49 Jan 03, 2011 Jkt 051160 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\51160.TXT SHAUN PsN: DPROCT
26 

suing other types of opportunities. Be up front with the small businesses. To the extent that you can, you will help them and they 

would appreciate it better. 

The other program that receives the most attention at the Department of Transportation is the one that is implemented by the 

recipients of DOT funds. There is a completely different environment. Recipients set goals based on availability of ready, willing 

and able individuals, and we have heard a lot of complaints that 

there is not enough opportunities out there. So we are hoping that 

with this influx of money, there will be much more opportunities. 

It is going to take a while to filter down to the small business. 

For the most part, many of these projects are so large that it takes 

a large company to be the leader. Small businesses come along as 

part of their team, and they come in as subcontractors. So any of 

this data that we see here, it is going to take a little bit of time. 

But so long as you are in the front end of it, we will be able to 

identify those opportunities and make them available to the small 

business community. 

Senator SNOWE. Well, I think that it is key to be at the front end 

of it to identify those opportunities and not when it is too late. I 

think that that is critically important. 

Why has it been difficult for the Department to meet the veteran’s goal? 

Mr. FRANCO. The service-disabled, veteran-owned business is the 

newest of the goals. It was established as a goal in 2003. Every 

year, we have doubled our performance. And it is a matter of numbers. The entire Federal Government is looking for qualified firms 

that are service-disabled, veteran-owned businesses. We are competing for those qualified firms. However, we put a lot of effort. We 

are out there reaching out to the community. We are hopeful that 

within the next year, or if not this year—we are shooting to meet 

that goal this year. We have got a number of small business setasides, specifically for service-disabled, veteran-owned businesses. 

So we are hoping to reach that plateau within either this year or 

the next year. That is our goal. 

The women-owned business, when we first included it in our 

strategic plan, it took us about three or four years to reach the 5 

percent goal. So it is going to take a while, but we are definitely 

committed to making sure that we get there in the shortest amount 

of time. 

Senator SNOWE. You know, the Washington Post did a story 

today on tracking stimulus spending. And they say that three 

months after the bill was signed, recovery.gov offers little beyond 

news releases and general breakdowns of spending and acronymladen spreadsheets and time lines. And I have heard this from 

small businesses as well. It seems very convoluted, confusing. You 

are trying to figure out what programs apply to small businesses 

as opposed to something else or the differentiation between public 

and private sector initiatives. 

So how are you tracking in the Department of Transportation 

how the stimulus spending is working? 

Mr. FRANCO. Well, one of the things that we have done is that 

we have gone out to the Federal Procurement Data System, that 

you have indicated is very confusing for small businesses to find 

27 

out what is going on. We go out there on a weekly basis. We pull 

the information specifically related to ARRA. We also pull the information specifically related to the Department of Transportation. 

Any small business that wants to do business with us can find out 

exactly what we are in the market for on any given day by just visiting our Web site. 

Senator SNOWE. Is it separate? I mean, it is totally separate? 

Mr. FRANCO. Oh, yes. We have it separated in a way that you 

know exactly what opportunities are being set aside for small business. You know exactly what opportunities we have for construction, what opportunities are there for technical support services. 

And some people say it is redundant. People can get it at the 

fedbizopps. We say no. If somebody is trying to market to the Department of Transportation, they need to know what we are in the 

market for on any given day. 

Senator SNOWE. And I think it is very important. And, Mr. Jordan, I think that is something that maybe could carry back to the 

administrator. I know she would be interested in this, but for all 

the agencies because it is a critical problem. 

I have heard that in a number of roundtables I have hosted in 

Maine. They have been saying—and going on our Web site to try 

to make a distinction between the public and private sector initiatives, small business initiatives, being aware of the initiatives that 

are in the stimulus plan that will benefit, and how all the other 

spending, especially on contracting issues or each agency. And perhaps it can be redesigned to be user friendly. That would be very 

helpful. 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. 

Chairman LANDRIEU [presiding]. Thank you. Just one more, and 

then we will usher the second panel. 

Mr. Jordan, is there anything that you have determined that you 

need additional legislative authority or additional resources to get 

this important job done, or do you feel like your department is well 

resourced and legislatively you have the authority that you need to 

fulfill this mission? 

Mr. JORDAN. And if you do not want to answer now, you can submit it for the record. But it is important to get—— 

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. 

Chairman LANDRIEU [continuing]. That on the record. Because 

this committee is going to be very, very intense and focused on 

really making sure that the Federal Government over the next year 

or two, or three or four, is meeting these goals, and that we are 

not going to set goals that we have no intention of meeting and just 

put out press releases to make everybody feel good. We really, really believe that this government has to do all it can to help small 

businesses get through this tough time. And whether it is on the 

capital access piece or creating more opportunities to do more business with the government while people are struggling like this, it 

is our intention. 

So you can answer it now or you can submit something for the 

record. 

Mr. JORDAN. I think that what I will do is I will take that for 

the record and come back to you only because I do not want to give 

28 

a quick answer. I would like to sit down with a team and be more 

thoughtful and comprehensive with a response. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Well, please do because we would be happy 

to, I think, assist you if you are lacking resources or authority to 

get your job done, because it is an important job to get done and 

get done correctly. 

Okay. With that, I would like to move to the next panel. 

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. FRANCO. Madam Chairwoman? 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Yes? Go right ahead, Mr. Franco. 

Mr. FRANCO. I just want to share that the Department of Transportation just released our agency-wide Recovery Act plan of action 

that is very helpful for the small businesses to be aware of. It 

spells out how we are going to go about tracking the information 

and implementing the Act. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Well, that would be very helpful, and I 

would like to submit that for the record. 

Mr. FRANCO. Okay, I will. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And we are going to ask all the agencies 

to submit their documents like that for the record. 

Mr. FRANCO. Thank you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

Would the second panel come forward? 

Thank you all. As you-all are getting settled, let me go ahead 

and begin introducing the panel. 

Sharon Arnold is our first witness. Sharon is the owner of 

SSACC, Inc., a small landscaping subcontractor that does work in 

northern Illinois, related to highway construction. She will be 

speaking about the help that she received from the Disadvantaged 

Business Enterprise, a program that is run by the Department of 

Transportation that she has found to be particularly helpful, and 

she will explain her situation. 

Our next witness is Joe Flynn. He is president of the Association 

of Procurement Technical Assistance Centers, a nationwide network of procurement professionals dedicated to assisting businesses 

with the contracting process. Joe is also a program manager for the 

University of Tennessee Procurement Technical Assistance Center, 

UPTAC, and assists business in identifying and obtaining government contracts. 

Very interested, Joe, in what you have to testify to us today. 

Sylvia Medina is our next witness. She is here representing 

Women Impacting Public Policy, WIPP. Sylvia is visiting from 

Idaho, where she is president of North Wind, a women-owned SBA, 

that provides environmental and construction services. In 12 years, 

North Wind has grown rapidly with offices located throughout the 

country. Its success is owed in great deal to innovative ideas and 

research. Their customers include the Department of Energy, EPA, 

the Air Force, Army, Navy, among a few. 

Our last witness is Theresa Daytner. Theresa is the president of 

Daytner Construction, a general contracting and construction firm 

based in Maryland, serving public and private sectors. I am very 

interested in hearing your testimony today. 

Ms. Arnold, why don’t we start with you? 

29 

STATEMENT OF SHARON ARNOLD, OWNER, SSACC, INC. 

Ms. ARNOLD. Good morning. My name is Sharon Arnold, and I 

am president of SSACC, Incorporated. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Just pull the mic a little bit closer to you. 

Ms. ARNOLD. My name is Sharon Arnold, and I am president of 

SSACC, Incorporated. We are a landscaping subcontractor located 

in Pontiac, Illinois. My company is a small landscaping business 

that works throughout the northern third of Illinois. One of our 

specialties is the installation of pavement fabric, which is placed on 

the existing road surfaces before the new asphalt overlay is installed. 

My company is a certified disadvantaged business enterprise, 

DBE, since 1986. The DBE program is the only small business subcontracting program in highway, airport and transit construction. 

As most businesses go, we slowly made our name and became established as a company that was a reliable and dependable landscaping subcontractor. In 2007, we completed 90 percent of the 

landscaping on the last 13-mile section of I–355 southwest of Chicago. 

Less than one year later, in December of 2008, our work under 

contract was not at the volume level that would allow us to start 

up in 2009. With that in mind and after 22 years in business, there 

was little hope of a future. I had to lay off my entire staff of 11, 

including myself, in an attempt to minimize cost in an effort to try 

and salvage our business. All of my employees had to go on unemployment. My company averages 250 union employees who are seasonal also. 

With the economy being what it was, the lack of highway construction work out for bid, my company was in dire straits with little hope of a future. In February 2009, under the leadership of 

President Obama and the United States Senate, the Stimulus Bill 

was passed. The Stimulus Bill has given the state of Illinois a 

much needed influx of highway construction monies, which has 

given us the opportunity to bid on a good deal of work. 

The three specialty highway lettings Illinois has had to date has 

benefitted us with enough work under contract to hire back all of 

our staff, including 90 percent of our permanent field employees. 

I am fully aware that the Stimulus Bill has saved my company. 

Madam Chairman and Committee, I truly commend the United 

States Senate for passing the Stimulus Bill. Undoubtedly, the passing of the Stimulus Bill has given us the opportunity to work yet 

another year. I know the Stimulus Bill has given the country and 

the highway construction industry the opportunity for the hope of 

a brighter future for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Arnold follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you, Ms. Arnold. 

Mr. Flynn? 

STATEMENT OF JOE FLYNN, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF 

PROCUREMENT TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE CENTERS (APTAC) 

Mr. FLYNN. Chairwoman Landrieu, Senator Snowe, distinguished 

senators, thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. I am 

honored to speak before you on behalf of the Association of Procurement Technical Assistance Centers and the small businesses that 

we serve across the country. First, I would like to express my gratitude and appreciation for your leadership and efforts on behalf of 

small businesses in Louisiana, Maine and all across the nation. 

My name is Joe Flynn. I am the director of the Center for Industrial Services, Procurement Technical Assistance Center, at the 

University of Tennessee. I am also president of the Association of 

Procurement Technical Assistance Centers. I was also the program 

manager in New Hampshire, where I first got to meet Senator 

Snowe a number of times up in Maine. 

It is nice to see you again, Senator. 

Our members are 89 PTACs across the nation with over 500 

dedicated procurement professionals helping small businesses compete for federal, state and local government contracts. We were created in 1985, funded and administered through the Defense Logistics Agency, and supported by the states and localities, which provide a non-federal matching of up to 50 percent. 

The PTACs help small businesses to capably navigate government procurement systems, increasing our defense industrial base, 

and generating new suppliers for federal, state and local governments. The resulting competition translates into higher quality 

goods and services at a lower cost to taxpayers, while creating 

more jobs and economic opportunities for small businesses across 

the country. 

PTACs are the boots on the ground in the government acquisition process. We work with small businesses everyday, offering 

classes and seminars, sponsoring matchmaking events with government agencies and prime contractors, providing hundreds of thousands of hours of one-on-one counseling and support, all at little or 

no cost to the businesses. Not only do we help them prepare for 

and bid on these contracts, but we assist them in navigating postaward performance issues as well. 

Whenever possible, we collaborate with programs and organizations with complimentary missions such as the small business development centers, manufacturing extension partnerships, and the 

Center for Veterans’ Enterprise, allowing us to be part of a comprehensive network of small business support. At the national 

level, we have had memorandums of understanding with all the 

three programs, and at the local level, I am actually housed with 

the Tennessee MEP at the University of Tennessee. 

Last year, the PTACs served well over 55,000 active clients, conducting over 175,000 counseling sessions, and sponsored or participated in over 3,600 classes, seminars and conferences attended by 

over 1.3 million people. There are classes going on across the nation today. We work with large prime contractors as well by assistVerDate Nov 24 2008 11:49 Jan 03, 2011 Jkt 051160 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\51160.TXT SHAUN PsN: DPROCT
36 

ing them in locating viable subcontractors, and we provide training 

on specific topics. 

One story I know is important to Chairwoman Landrieu is Louisiana PTACs work with Textron to identify small businesses and 

subcontractors in Louisiana. I just spoke with Sherrie Mullins before I came in, and she has a number of things she would like to 

tell you. I know you are very familiar with her center. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. I am. I was just going to mention her 

name. She is quite active. 

Mr. FLYNN. She certainly is. Her staff, Liz Johnson, helped me 

a great deal today. Kelly Ford in Louisiana also has helped me a 

great deal, as has Pat Rice. Pat Rice is amazing up in Maine. We 

really love them all. 

As a result of our efforts last year, the PTAC clients were award- ed over 86,000 contracts and subcontracts, worth in excess of $14 

billion. This includes over 1 billion in Louisiana and a little over 

$212 million in Maine. The contracts created and retained almost 

334,000 jobs, including 20,000 in Louisiana and over 4,000 in 

Maine. 

We also serve as an outreach vehicle for many government agencies on such procurement issues as RFI, IUID, wide-area workflow, 

and a whole lot more, as well as more local acquisition efforts by 

military bases, defense supply centers, DoD regional councils, and 

the Department of Interior Fire Service, to name just a few. We 

can get the information and training out to the small businesses 

that they need to succeed in this continually changing environment, and thereby help agencies identify suppliers that they can 

work with. 

Our nation’s small businesses are hurting. Let me state that 

twice. They are hurting. They really, really are. With private sector 

investment continuing to decline, many small businesses are turning to the government. 

In preparation for this hearing, I did a quick random survey of 

17 PTACs around the country, asking what impact the economic 

downturn had on demand for their services. Responses that I received tell a story I am sure you could guess. Overall, our initial 

counseling sessions, that is the first time we sit down with a new 

client, are up over 68 percent over the same period from last year. 

In Maine, they are up over 76 percent. Madison, Wisconsin, they 

are up over 110 percent. In Tennessee, I am up over almost 200 

percent. The demand for classes and seminars has increased well 

and attendance at PTAC’s events is up over 40 percent from last 

year. 

Federal Government offers over $350 billion each year in procurement opportunities, in addition to the American Recovery and 

Reinvestment Act, which includes over 250 billion in additional 

procurement opportunities. I know each of you played a critical role 

in the passage of that bill. While some senators may disagree on 

its size and details, I think all would agree that small businesses 

must have access to these dollars. Businesses are contacting their 

PTACs for help in identifying and responding to the ARRA opportunities. PTAC staff take their duty to their clients very, very seriously. And in this time of crisis, we are simply buckling down and 

putting in the extra hours and extra miles to meet these needs. 

37 

As you see, we are seeing increased activities, and we are responding. We see successes all across America, like Marc and 

Cheryl Nunez, owners of Southern Services and Equipment in St. 

Bernard, Louisiana. After losing their homes and businesses in 

Katrina and Rita, Marc and Cheryl worked with the local PTAC 

and has since secured over $12 million in federal contracts. Like 

Ann Yahner, who retired from a career in nursing in the U.S. 

Navy, and formed Penobscot Bay Media in Camden, Maine. Ann 

worked with Pat Rice and the Maine PTAC and their Bid Match 

service to secure contracts with USDA, U.S. Forest Service, as well 

as Maine DOT, Army National Guard and a few others. 

Our program works. We work with small businesses everyday—— 

Chairman LANDRIEU. If you could just try to wrap up in 30 seconds. 

Mr. FLYNN. Okay. Well, thank you again for this honor and opportunity. I am happy to answer any questions that you might 

have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Flynn follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very, very much. Ms. Medina. 

STATEMENT OF SYLVIA MEDINA, PRESIDENT, NORTH WIND, 

INC. 

Ms. MEDINA. Good morning, Chair Landrieu, Senator Snowe and 

members of the Committee. My name is Sylvia Medina. I am appearing today on behalf of Women Impacting Public Policy, or 

WIPP, representing over half a million women business owners nationwide. I serve on WIPP’s Board of Directors and am president 

of North Wind, Incorporated, based in Idaho Falls. Our company 

provides environmental engineering and construction services 

throughout the United States. It is unthinkable that the government would spend $787 billion 

in procuring goods and services without awarding a significant portion of it to the segment of economy that is critical to its recovery, 

small business. I want to commend this committee and the new administration for making a concerted effort to educate us on agency 

plans and involve us in discussions surrounding the Recovery Act. 

WIPP has dedicated much of its resources in the last quarter to 

educating the small business community on the Stimulus Bill and 

how to follow the funding, including holding regional meetings 

around the country, with the first one being held today in Chicago. 

From what we have seen, the agencies are putting their distribution plans into place, but they are scrambling to find enough contracting officers to push these procurements out the door. We see 

a double-edged sword with respect to this shortage of acquisition 

manpower. It will mean that they will use existing contracts in 

place. That is good news for small businesses with existing contracts but not for those who do not currently hold contracts. 

We are not advocating the stimulus money is held up until all 

new contracts can be put in place. We cannot afford long delays. 

Small businesses should be awarded the contracts that they are entitled to in current law that includes 23 percent of prime contracts 

plus the subcontracting goals that have been negotiated with the 

SBA and is envisioned in the 2000 Act, 5 percent of prime contracts 

for women business owners. We are counting on congressional oversight to ensure that stimulus money meets these small business 

targets. 

As the committee knows, a large percentage of DOE, Department 

of Energy, dollars are awarded to top management and operating, 

or M&O contractors, who manage its national labs. Small businesses are, for the most part, second-tier subcontractors to the 

M&O. Therefore, stimulus funding primarily will be awarded to 

large prime contractors. So instead of directly contracting with 

small businesses, DOE will have to find a way to effectively work 

with its prime to ensure that meaningful work flows down to the 

M&O small business contractors. 

To express our concern, WIPP sent a leader to DOE Secretary 

Chu on April 3rd, which is attached to my testimony. We are still 

awaiting a response from the secretary. WIPP feels strongly that 

small businesses should not be relegated to low-margin subcontracts. 

What I am currently observing, and have received as input from 

a number of other DOE small business contractors, is that few 

44 

shovel-ready projects are being competitively bid or directly awarded to small business contractors. The DOE procurement process is 

inherently difficult for small business contracts to be bid and 

awarded in a timely manner. The problem is a need to obligate 

these stimulus funds in a very short time frame. 

These types of contracts do not promote sustainable, small business growth since the positions are not only temporary but often 

do not allow for sufficient profit to pay for employee benefits. In 

some cases, the M&O contractors are actually hiring staff away 

from small businesses to support their efforts rather than bidding 

out new project work. I want to caveat this by saying that not all 

DOE M&Os are operating with this business model, but we are 

seeing a trend in this direction. 

My company is a DOE small business protege of Bechtel National. Because of this relationship, we have been given the opportunity through directed and competitively bid procurements to receive stimulus dollars and have hired new staff to run and support 

these projects. I am able to subcontract work to other businesses, 

small and large, who are, therefore, benefitting from the stimulus 

money. 

This model should be an example of how DOE small business 

contracting of stimulus monies can be done successfully, helping 

small businesses grow in a sustainable manner and foster growth 

well after the stimulus monies have been expended. It really has 

a positive compounding effect for us as a small business. 

I am pleased to report that these projects that we are performing 

are being performed within their approved budget and on schedule. 

Half of my annual revenue is also based on work with other agencies. Many of these agencies are making positive strides in rapidly 

funding new and existing projects with stimulus money. In contrast 

to the DOE, many small businesses like mine are performing work 

as a first tier prime contractor for the agency. 

We would like to make the following recommendations: one, that 

this committee assess how federal departments are awarding subcontract dollars provided by the stimulus monies to small businesses; two, that in your stimulus reports, federal departments include the amount of dollars being subcontracted, including the profit margin data; and three, that DOE increase the number of contract opportunities directly with small businesses. 

The large dollars being contracted through the Stimulus Bill reiterate the need for the SBA to implement a women’s procurement 

program which will assist federal agencies in meeting their 5 percent goal. WIPP thanks all the members of Congress who helped 

in stopping the SBA’s onerous women’s procurement program proposed in 2007. SBA took several long years to attempt to implement it, and what was proposed was completely unacceptable. We 

are asking today that the Committee move expeditiously to pass 

the legislation drafted last year by Senators Kerry and Snowe as 

an amendment to the DoD Authorization Bill. 

In closing, we are optimistic that with this committee’s support, 

women-owned and small businesses will be able to help jump-start 

the economy by participating in the stimulus dollars made available through the Recovery Act. Thank you for inviting me to share 

my views. I am happy to answer any questions. 

45 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Medina follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Daytner. 

Ms. DAYTNER. That is correct. 

STATEMENT OF THERESA DAYTNER, PRESIDENT, DAYTNER 

CONSTRUCTION GROUP 

Ms. DAYTNER. Thank you. 

Good morning, Senators Snowe and Landrieu, and the rest of the 

Committee and staffers. It was an honor to meet with Senators 

Landrieu and Snowe on March 16th at the White House with 

President Obama and Secretary of Treasury Geithner to discuss 

small business issues—nice to see you again—and hear about the 

President’s plans to support the SBA and expand lending and surety guarantee programs. Thank you for inviting me today as a witness on behalf of small business owners across this amazing country of ours. 

My name is Theresa Alfaro Daytner, and I am an entrepreneur 

from Mt. Airy, Maryland. I grew up in nearby Greenbelt, Maryland, with an entrepreneurial father who owned several beauty salons and an cosmetology school on Main Street in Laurel. Mom 

studied geology in college when I was growing up and became a 

public high school teacher. 

I started my first business in 1989, a residential roofing company, while finishing my accounting degree at the University of 

Maryland, raising my first child, studying for the CPA exam, and 

embarking on my first real job with a highly respected D.C. CPA 

firm downtown on Connecticut Avenue. 

As a Latina, I am the oldest daughter. I was also helping Papi 

and Mami who had recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer 

and multiple sclerosis, respectively. I found the traditional career 

path of the corporate world did not share the same family values 

and creative resourcefulness that I was so passionate about. My 

generational Dagwood sandwich coincided with the need to support 

a family and leave an unsupportive marriage. 

I believe my experience is very similar to many women entrepreneurs, who are torn between raising families, caring for parents, 

economic survival, and, oh yeah, creating a life full of passion, purpose and joy. This experience confirmed in my mind that I made 

a terrible employee. 

As a single mother, dedicated daughter and rehabbing a rebuilt 

knee—that is a story for another day—I was working full-time for 

a general contractor that allowed me a short commute and paycheck job; that is, only 40 hours a week versus the 60 plus hours 

I was working at the CPA firm. This spare time allowed me to finish studying and sit for the CPA exam, which I passed in the first 

sitting. 

So not only did I get to see how a growing and reputable commercial general contractor operated from the inside out, but I also 

met the love of my life, my husband, Allen Daytner, and obtained 

the credentials and experience to start my next two businesses, a 

CPA practice that I operated for almost 11 years through four more 

newborns, a consolidated multi-generational home, a marriage, and 

an addition of a step-daughter, and my current company that I 

started in January of 2003, a commercial construction management 

55 

and general contracting company, The Daytner Corporation, now 

doing business as Daytner Construction Group. And, yes, the total 

was six children. This is my daughter, Candace. They are now 23, 

21, 14, 11 and we have twin eight-year olds. The older four are 

girls. The twin boys are the youngest two. And I have a daughter 

getting married in June. 

Many small businesses across this country have stories very 

similar to mine. Mostly we share a desire to create our own destiny. I spent years building a strong successful business before pursuing the Federal Government as a potential new client. 

In 2005, I became an SBA 8(a) certified company and was awarded our first federal contract with the U.S. Navy, utilizing this contract vehicle. Last year, 2008, my company grossed $1.4 million in 

gross revenue. All revenue was for construction management professional services, as we had not pursued bonding for at-risk general contracting projects, and less than 50 percent of that revenue 

was from federal clients. We do a lot of work in higher education 

and in the private sector. 

This year, with the combination of expanding into general contracting and federal opportunities in our region, many created by 

the President’s stimulus and recovery plan, we will have a breakout year. To date, we have contracts in place for over 800,000 in 

services and are projecting at least 7 million in new contracts and 

general contracting. It is only May. This projection is based on proposals we are currently submitting and negotiating and does not 

include new opportunities arising between June and September 

30th. We are extremely fortunate to benefit from the 8(a) Business 

Development Program. 

I am excited and honored to be a good steward of these public 

funds and projects. In fact, one recent day after contemplating 

being the recipient of U.S. tax dollars for projects on a U.S. military installation, I drove my Mazda to my local Ford dealer to discuss trading for a Ford Escape hybrid. 

I believe in walking the talk. We are a family-friendly workplace, 

providing a complete suite of benefits for our employees, including 

100 percent employer-provided healthcare insurance for the entire 

family. The federal contracts in front of us, some being products of 

the stimulus package, will afford me the opportunity to hire more 

people and more subcontractors, purchase more goods from local 

merchants, and continue sowing seeds of hope through economic 

seepage back into my community. 

I could go on forever about the promotional products I just 

bought from my girlfriend in Boulder, Colorado who has hit hard 

times, or the service-disabled vet brother I just hired to drive here 

from Boise, Idaho, after being laid off, to finish my basement, not 

to mention the plumber, electrician and drywall finishers that we 

hired, or the sister I hired to paint in an effort to support her 

dream of completing cosmetology school. I do not have all of these 

contracts in hand yet, but I am willing to pay it forward, and I am 

optimistic about being well positioned to secure federal contracts 

and deliver excellent results. 

Finally, I am grateful to the support and guidance of my family 

and leaders and peers in programs such as the Make Mine a Million $ Business program, supported by Count Me In and OPEN 

56 

from American Express; and Dartmouth’s minority executive education programs at the Tuck School of Business in conjunction with 

MBDA. The opportunity to be included in these communities has 

given me the vision and strength to reach higher and dream bigger 

while developing a deeper sense of purpose to improve upon the 

quality of life for families in the U.S. 

Thank you for your time and attention, and I am happy to answer any questions you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Daytner follows:] 

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Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. All I can say is you 

are making both of us tired, but we are encouraged by your testimony. Thank you. 

Let me turn to Senator Snowe, who is going to have to leave for 

a meeting. So I am going to ask her to proceed with her questions 

first. 

Senator SNOWE. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Very impressive. Thank you all. And, Ms. Daytner, I do not know 

where you find the time. And I also understand you are nurturing 

a future presidential candidate, your daughter. She has a desire. 

Ms. DAYTNER. Yes, I am. I brought her with me. 

Senator SNOWE. All right. We will not ask which party, but that 

is all right. 

Ms. DAYTNER. Quite all right. She is starting with student government. 

Senator SNOWE. Good for her. Good for you, and I hope you follow your dreams. 

Ms. Daytner, and I would like to ask you, Ms. Medina and Ms. 

Arnold about how you access the information with respect to what 

is available in the stimulus plan, in the Recovery Act. 

Do you use the Web sites? As you heard earlier, the criticism 

that appeared in the paper today with respect to the information 

available. So I would be interested in how you found out what 

money was available and in which areas. 

Ms. DAYTNER. I used the Web sites today. The learning curve 

was steep. There was quite a bit of learning curve. And I certainly 

would love to talk to Mr. Jordan about recommendations on potentially dividing that site into novices and intermediate, and I think 

that would go a long way. 

Senator SNOWE. Ms. Medina? 

Ms. MEDINA. Our business development group monitors the various Web sites, but primarily we get most of our opportunities 

through GSA, the contracting schedules that they put out, plus directed procurements through our existing contract vehicles. 

Senator SNOWE. But have you found it helpful? I mean, if somebody was a novice in this attempt, how would you view the information available? 

Ms. MEDINA. Honestly, my business development people— because I do not do—I mean, our company is about 370 people. They 

do not—very little do they go into the data—I mean, to those programs. We just kind of search it out and try to find out what is 

out there. 

Senator SNOWE. And I appreciate the suggestions you have made 

about how each agency should account for how the stimulus dollars 

are spent and so on, because we should certainly have accountability in this respect regarding small businesses and the number 

of contracts that are issued, and size, and so on. I think that would 

be very useful and helpful in this process, and we will do that. 

Ms. Arnold. 

Ms. ARNOLD. Yes. The Web sites that SBA is talking about really 

could be formatted just to show what jobs are out for bid. If you 

do not have the job contract number, you cannot find anything. So, 

literally, they could just list the owner, the date of the bid, the 

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cause when you look at the Web sites, that is what you need first. 

You cannot access anything without a contract number. 

But we get all of our work through the DOT Web site. And even 

though my company has the ability to survive another year, it is 

very, very competitive out there. And it is so competitive that even 

the prime contractors now are subbing their work to other primes 

because their intent is to put small business out of business. 

Senator SNOWE. So you have discovered that as well. 

Ms. ARNOLD. Oh, yes. I worked 15 years for a prime contractor, 

so I understood the good old boy system really well. And the issue 

is that if the DBE program goes away, which is the backbone of 

our country, so will the majority small business companies that do 

under 17 million three years annually. 

Senator SNOWE. Have you been able to identify which areas have 

a potential contract for you in the stimulus plan? 

Ms. ARNOLD. We are landscapers. But the reason that we are in 

the position we are is because the work that was contracted out is 

all asphalt and overlays, because that is what we had shovel-ready. 

I mean, Illinois has not had a capital bill for 10 years almost, and 

Illinois is in terrible condition. Our DOT has been cut by 50 percent. We have a transportation secretary now that is an accountant 

instead of the man that was in there that we really need, who is 

an excellent engineer, professional engineer, and worked in the industry. 

There are just so many issues in Illinois that I have got work 

that we did in October, September and October last year, still not 

on pay estimates because they are so understaffed, they keep cutting the DOT budget, saying it has to come out of the state budget, 

which it does not because they are really federal employees and 

they are paid by the MFT funds. 

The other thing Illinois has done is put consultants on as engineers. Well, I am sorry, but that comes out of our highway fund, 

and that gives us less work to do. So Illinois really needs to readdress issues. 

Senator SNOWE. Yes, it sounds serious. Yes. 

Ms. ARNOLD. It is major. And two weeks ago we were out here 

with our women’s group, Women First, and 14 of our women were 

here from across the United States. I was the only one affected by 

it in a positive way. Most of them had seen nothing. A few had 

seen a little bit of the stimulus money. But it is just because we 

were fortunate enough to do this one type of work that we are in 

the position we are; otherwise, we would not be. 

Senator SNOWE. So you expect that, through the stimulus work, 

that you can survive this year? 

Ms. ARNOLD. If I can get my pay estimates done in a timely manner, you know, and collect my money. 

Senator SNOWE. That is the other part of the problem with the 

Department in Illinois. 

Ms. ARNOLD. We literally have consultants out there that do not 

speak clear enough English that you can understand them. There 

are major issues. I have had engineers tell me that they would call 

me when they had the chance to get back to me. It is not a friendly—— 

Senator SNOWE. It sounds horrible. 

63 

Ms. ARNOLD.—user friendly—— 

Senator SNOWE. No, it does not at all. I am sorry that you are 

going through that. 

Ms. ARNOLD. It is very extreme. 

Senator SNOWE. That is terrible, at anytime, but especially now. 

Ms. ARNOLD. Oh, yes. 

Senator SNOWE. Mr. Flynn, what would you recommend, in all 

that you have heard here, in what we can do better? You mentioned the PTACs, which work incredibly well, and the relationship 

with the small business development centers. Unfortunately, they 

have been cut significantly. There has been flat funding. And even 

this President’s budget, there is a further reduction, which Chair 

Landrieu and I had wanted an increase, and what you have mentioned for the statistics in terms of counseling demand. It has gone 

up exponentially, something I have seen across the country. It is 

universal now because of the economic situation. 

How do you think that impacts the ability of small business to 

access these contracts and stimulus dollars, and how helpful has it 

been to have that relationship and network with the SBDCs? 

Mr. FLYNN. I think it impacts greatly. The PCRs for the SBA 

have been cut, almost totally eliminated. In my humble opinion, 

they are one of the most effective group of people that the SBA has. 

I think they need to be re-funded and increased. I think we need 

more of them out there. 

The SBDCs, they address businesses that are just startup. If a 

start-up business comes to me or somebody comes to me, and they 

have an idea and they want to start up a business, I cannot give 

them very much help, to be totally honest with you. I work with 

already existing businesses. 

As you have heard today and in other hearings, the systems that 

are out there are very complicated to work with. The Web sites 

that they have, that is typically how small businesses find the 

PTAC. They go to a Web site, try to navigate the CCR, or try to 

find out their NAICS code, or try to do anything minor, and after 

their head explodes, they find a PTAC. We assist them, and in a 

matter of maybe a half an hour, we get them through all of those 

databases correctly, a half an hour after they have spent sometimes weeks trying to figure out what they are. 

Some of the complaints or concerns that I hear from the small 

businesses are, wouldn’t it be nice if small businesses designed 

these sites for small businesses? It looks like they were designed 

by a large business. Well, if a large business is designing a site 

that a small business has to get through in order to be competitive, 

does that limit competition? That is just a question. I do not know. 

Senator SNOWE. No. You raise a very valid point. I mean, it is 

a serious problem. It is not user-friendly. That is what I hear. So 

I always wonder. If you are a company of 5 or 10 or 20, it does not 

matter, I mean, you do not have those kind of resources or 

time—— 

Mr. FLYNN. You do not, no. 

Senator SNOWE.—to manage all of that. 

How do they end up coming to you? How do they find a PTAC 

in all of that at the end of the day? 

64 

Mr. FLYNN. An awful lot of times, they find us by going to the 

SBA, and they will ask the SBA a question and the SBA says you 

need to talk to your local PTAC. Our relationship with the SBA in 

Tennessee is a marvelous relationship. We include them in all of 

our conferences. 

Senator SNOWE. And speaking to the point that Ms. Arnold just 

raised about the prime contractors and other large companies to 

circumvent the goals and the rules of contracting is the issue of 

procurement representatives. We need more PCRs, without question, to look at and review these contracts, these bundled contracts, 

and unbundling them, because that is a huge issue. And, unfortunately, there has not been a great track record by the Small Business Administration in the years because of not enough personnel 

to review these contracts and to make sure that they are living up 

to the obligations and living up to the law. 

Mr. FLYNN. Senator, the FAR allows for liquidated damages in 

the case where a large prime or an agency does not meet their 

goals. In my almost 40 years of government contracting, I do not 

know that I have ever heard that enforced. It may well have been. 

I am not totally knowledgeable of everything. 

Senator SNOWE. Well, I do not think I would disagree with you 

on that one. 

Mr. FLYNN. I would like to see every small business set-aside 

have a footnote in there that they come to their local PTAC. There 

is a national Web site that we have so they can find us. I would 

like to see on small business plans a question asked on the two 

documents that the large businesses have—the primes have to submit. Have you worked with your local PTAC to find a small business? Those are very simple things that could be done. 

Now, yes, we are underfunded even though, thankfully, you and 

others have put forth the largest funding request for the PTACs 

ever. We appreciate that. But we want to help. You are not going 

to hear us say no we cannot, ever. You will never hear that from 

a PTAC. So, please, any way that you can identify us to small businesses, try to do that. We will help them be successful. 

Senator SNOWE. Thank you. And I appreciate it. It is a great suggestion. Thank you, your can-do spirit in all of you. We want to 

help you, and we appreciate your suggestions. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Let me continue, Mr. Flynn, and then I do have questions for the 

rest of the panel, and we are going to try to finish by 12. 

Would you just spend one minute giving us a quick summary of 

PTAC and how they got started? I understand through the Department of Defense. Describe how large you are now, how many chapters you have. And are there areas of the country that you are 

more active than others because of lack of either authorization or 

budget? 

If you could do all that in about a minute and 30 seconds. 

Mr. FLYNN. I do not know if I can say my name in a minute and 

30 seconds. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Well, let’s try. 

65 

Mr. FLYNN. We were started back around 1985 or 1987. Congress 

created us to increase competition with government contracting. 

And we were mainly created with manufacturers only. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. So not in the Department of Defense. You were created federal-wide, not just in Defense. 

Mr. FLYNN. We were initially created, I believe—and I have not 

been with it since the beginning—for DoD. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. For DoD. 

Mr. FLYNN. Yes. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And then expanded. 

Mr. FLYNN. Then expanded. And we work with every government 

agency, federal, local state, municipal, and we even do some international procurement. Like I said, we are not going to say no to 

you. If you need the help, we are going to give it to you. There are 

89 now across the nation. We just had a brand new one in Hawaii 

and a new one in Guam. The Commonwealth of Northern Mariana 

Islands, CNMI, they are looking for a PTAC to be established as 

well. 

The local areas that are most hard hit are the states that you 

would imagine, those states that have a lot of underdeveloped 

areas, big HUBZone areas. Senator Snowe has heard from Pat Rice 

and this committee has heard from Pat Rice and some of the issues 

with that program, that are still in existence since the last time 

she testified. It is a good program, but there are things that could 

make it a lot better. 

I do not know how to answer your question—— 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Well, I would like you to submit for the 

record your suggestions as to if we could create some additional 

chapters. We have I think a request in for $10 million for additional support; where you think, given the economic dynamics 

across the country—where those resources would best be positioned. That would be very, very helpful if you could submit that. 

My second question—and it really is to Mr. Jordan. I do not want 

him to come forward again, but just to throw this out. 

It would possibly be a very good idea for the SBA to look to see 

what PTAC is doing in terms of their advice and model some of 

that at your own site, so that it does not become a barrier, that 

you all are using some of the best practices that they have developed in-house to do the work. I mean, that would seem to me to 

be something that would be a no-brainer. 

But let me move on to my next question to Ms. Medina. You testified that the existing contracting vehicles will affect your small 

business. 

How is the usage of existing contract vehicles going to affect either your business or others? Could you remind me of what you 

testified? Is that a positive or a negative? 

Ms. MEDINA. Well, I think if you have the existing contract vehicle at a certain location where you are trying to work, you can get 

opportunities at those specific facilities. And I am specifically talking about like the different Department of Energy locations. Like, 

for example, I do not have any contract vehicles at Oak Ridge National Lab. And because of that, I cannot get any—I cannot even 

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tract vehicles at other locations, like Los Alamos and Hanford, 

Richland. 

But if you are a small business that does not have a contract vehicle, you cannot get an opportunity at any of these locations. And 

so, that is one reason—I did talk to some other small businesses 

who want to provide support to not just DOE but other government 

agencies, and that is really a problem. If they do not have a contract vehicle, they cannot get access to even putting together a proposal for the work. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Ms. Daytner, you testified that you had 

started your business primarily in the private, commercial sector 

and then moved to the government sphere. 

How did you access government contracts initially? What was the 

most helpful to you that might be helpful for the record? 

Ms. DAYTNER. I believe the 8(a) contract vehicle and my relationship with my local district SBA office have been instrumental in 

helping us to scratch the surface. And, frankly, it has just been— 

someone mentioned that there was a similarity between marketing 

to private clients and marketing to the Federal Government, and 

it is very similar. I have worn out shoes, and you just pound the 

pavement and build those relationships. 

The learning curve, what is different about the Federal Government is that it really is wise to go in with someone who is there. 

So, for instance, I will be talking to Ms. Sylvia over here because 

she is in places that I am not, and we are a potential subcontractor. And part of that learning curve has come from my interviewing and working through people in the SBA who can give me 

that kind of guidance, because the commercial sector tends to be 

much more proprietary and individual, and you have to change the 

mind-set. 

So that is where the people in the Federal Government and those 

resources at SBA were very helpful in trying to wake me up to the 

idea of collaboration and teaming, and how beneficial that could be 

as a subcontractor to open new doors in the Federal Government. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Had you been familiar with PTACs before? 

Ms. DAYTNER. I have. There was a woman, who I do not believe 

is with PTAC anymore, Rae Bradshaw. But we met with her and 

went through a GSA schedule’s proposal, and she helped us just 

line by line figure that out and pull it apart. And with her experience and understanding how to respond to it, it was extremely 

helpful. So it was very specific, and we were looking at a specific 

proposal. And that is where PTAC was very helpful. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. And, Mr. Flynn, given the excellent testimony that we are receiving about your operation, from not just this 

panel and from yourself representing, but from others that I am 

hearing, how are PTAC officers identified? And when you all are 

trying to hire to establish PTACs, where do you look to find people 

that can come in and do the job that you are asking them to do? 

Are there particular fields you look to? 

Mr. FLYNN. There are. First, how are we identified, you mean by 

the small businesses? Some of them identify us off of the DLA Web 

site. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. No. How do PTACs stand up their own employees? 

67 

Mr. FLYNN. Okay, I understand that. It is difficult to find good 

employees, and there are many times where I will interview 20 or 

30 people before I accept one. They need to have government procurement experience. 

I came out of the private industry. I was raised by a very strong 

woman very similar to Ms. Daytner over there. My mother had five 

children and she has been a self-employed—— 

Chairman LANDRIEU. That is okay. 

Mr. FLYNN. Excuse me. 

So I have come out of that industry. I came out of it. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. So you know how to be tenacious. 

Mr. FLYNN. I have a passion for what I do and so do the rest. 

And what I want to see when I interview these people, and what 

we all want to see, is the kind of passion you are seeing from me 

now. We look for people who have a passion for small business, 

then we look for experience that ties into that passion. And we do 

not want somebody who is going to refer somewhere else. 

So we look for some really key qualities in the people that we are 

looking for, beyond their experience with government contracting. 

Because there are a lot of people with experience with government 

contracting, but I do not want somebody whose eyes glaze over 

when they hear that someone has got a problem. I do not want 

somebody that says, well, go talk to Charlie, or go talk to the SBA, 

or go talk to this person. I want somebody, and so do all of the 

other PTACs, who will work with that small business through 

every aspect of the problem until it is resolved. It is hard to find 

people like that. 

So, yes, they need the basic understanding of government procurement, of government law, the FAR, but they also need to have 

a bit of tenacity in them. They cannot accept no for an answer, and 

they have to be able to counsel businesses to be the same, because 

if the businesses take no for an answer, they will never succeed. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. Let me ask you, the Federal Government established you, and your primary mission is to help federal 

agencies access small businesses or give them opportunities to purchase. 

What about your relationship with state government and local 

government? Do you serve as a resource to them as well? 

Mr. FLYNN. We do, and we do across the nation. Some states are 

more effective than others. It is difficult many times to get directly 

involved with the state procurement offices, but we do the best job 

that we can. Every state is different. Every locale is different. 

In Tennessee, I have a very good relationship with the economic 

development people. I have a less than a hundred percent relationship with the people who really post the contracts that the state 

is trying to gain solicitations on. But I have access to all those solicitations and I know their system. I can walk into the offices and 

work with anybody at anytime. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Are you familiar with any state that has a 

PTAC system similar to the federal PTAC system? 

Mr. FLYNN. I do not understand your question. I am sorry. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. I mean, the Federal Government has established these chapters to help with our procurement. 

68 

Does any state have a very aggressive program that you are 

aware of that, that tries to link their state contracts to small businesses? 

Mr. FLYNN. I am not aware of any state procurement technical 

assistance centers. Most of them team with the procurement technical assistance centers. That is part of their match when they provide that funding. So if they are really, really, really interested in 

working with businesses to make state opportunities available to 

them, it is typically done through the PTAC. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. 

Ms. Daytner, do you have anything you want to add? I am going 

to close out this panel. Any one or two points that you did not 

make that you would like to get on the record? 

Ms. DAYTNER. Yes. Actually, I wanted to share, with regard to 

surety and bonding, that the SBA program, having moved up the 

threshold and the limits from 2 million to $5 million, is going to 

be key in us being able to secure the work that we are qualified 

to do. We are a small business; we have a thin balance sheet. The 

surety companies in that industry tend to be very risk adverse, and 

I do not have any more house to put up on the line. I have offered 

a couple kids. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. There were no takers. 

Ms. DAYTNER. There are no takers. 

But I wanted to share with you, I have a document here from 

Frank Lalumiere, who is the director of Surety and Bonding for the 

SBA, who is doing a fantastic job and is tasked now with—having 

been enabled with the program to get the word out about it. So I 

wanted to share that with you. 

Also, OPEN from American Express has teamed up with WIPP 

on a program called Give Me Five, specifically targeted at the 5 

percent goal for women-owned businesses and government contracting. And they are very, very aggressive in the educational 

component, from the basics of how to get a DUNS number and registered in CCR. 

I had the good fortune—they put together a booklet, and my company is featured in here. It is on government contracting, and I 

was very impressed with just the soup to nuts, how do you get 

started. And it is very, very real. It talks about the relationship 

building. So I just wanted to leave those with the committee and 

share them with you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

Ms. DAYTNER. Thank you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Ms. Medina, anything you want to add 

briefly? 

Ms. MEDINA. I was hoping you would come to me. There was one 

thing I did—it is also related to bonding. And I did put together 

something here, Issues Related to Bonding Requirements for the 

Department of Defense Construction Opportunities. 

I was thinking that we need to really look at it since small business bonding limits are typically very limited, and this will preclude many small businesses from bidding many of the stimulus 

projects that are being currently procured. And I was wondering 

whether or not the procuring agent—you know, if you guys can 

look at whether or not the procuring agency can somehow review 

69 

bonding requirements for stimulus-related project requirements, 

and perhaps provide relief to small businesses in this area. So that 

was something I wanted to ask. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Ms. MEDINA. And thank you very much for the time, too. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Ms. MEDINA. And I have twins, too. They are two-and-a-half 

years old. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Both of you are role models. 

Ms. Arnold. 

Ms. ARNOLD. Thank you very much. It has been an honor to be 

here. I felt very privileged my entire life to have this opportunity. 

Like I said, I worked 15 years for a prime. I was looking to start 

my own business, and the DE in our district is the one that suggested this program. And I know I would have never had the opportunity without the program being in place. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Okay. 

Mr. Flynn, any final word? 

Mr. FLYNN. Thank you. I would like to stress the bonding issue. 

And it is amazing that the SBA has been given more leeway in 

that area. 

There is one problem, especially in the state of Louisiana. I am 

sure you are aware of this. The large contracts that are out there 

right now, construction contracts, they are multiple award task 

order contracts. Those contracts are really being increased. Huge 

dollars are coming down into them, but the businesses that are getting that money are distributing it through current contractors. So 

you are not seeing an increase in small businesses getting at that 

money. It is staying in the same group of people. That is really not 

good. That is really not good. We have got to broaden that out so 

that other small businesses have access to that money. 

I could go on, but I am not going to. Thank you so much. I am 

so privileged to have been here. Thank you. 

Chairman LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. It has been a very 

informative hearing. Thank you very much. 

The record will stay open for two weeks. Thank you. Meeting adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:01 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

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