**Note: The output shown below is from t** **he Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART)**

**system used in the Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting # 4** **and is generally unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and**  **persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real -** **time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.**  Thursday, August 21, 2014 United States Access Board Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #4

>> Paul: Good afternoon, everybody. This is Paul Beatty. Welcome to the fourth meeting of the rooms and spaces subcommittee. As you know everyonemay participate in subcommitteediscussions. Thereforenotime for public comment has been scheduled during this roughly hour and a half call. Although we have CART now, there is
-- I don't know if we have a chat box. Well, we have a chat box, so therefore if you want to send something to us for those that are only using CART to participate and you want to raise a question or make a statement, we'll be monitoring the chat box or you can send it to the ARVAC e
-mail address at RVAAC@access-board.gov. Remember to give your name when you are speaking and as a reminder this is your last call for the subcommittee. Your nextmeetingwillmostlikelybeduringthetimeofthefullcommittee meeting scheduled for September 11th and 12th. Whatwe'll do now is make introductions in the room here. You have myself, Jim Pecht and MelissaAnderson and our CART operator, Sherry.

On the phone line, we got a lot of the major players. Let's see I see ameetingview,Andre,Chris, Jennifer, Dennis, David Blair, Kenneth Eloy and JoseVegas. Okay. If there's somebody Imissed, please let us know. At this point, I'm going to turn the call over to Dennis who is the subcommittee chair and we'll take it from there. Take it away, Dennis.

>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you, everybody, for showing up. Pardon the delay and whatnot. What you have attached to the agenda is the document with bullet points. It was basically discusses our last meeting and I filled it out with things that I -- that we discussed in the last meeting and came to some general agreement on. And so I want to go over it again and talk about making the presentations to the full committeemeeting. ButoneofthethingsIdidin revisingthisdocument, I hope you all have it in front of you there, is to move things around a little bit and putting a general scoping provision for most of the requirements and then separate out the technical requirements and so forth for each of the spaces that we were talking about. And I want to talk about several issues that have come up with respect to the scoping. Let's start out with the scoping for restrooms. Right now in inner city rail cars, there is a requirement that if you have restrooms for the public
-- this is true of all of them actually

-- if you have a restroom for the public, you have to have an accessible restroom. Itdoesnotsaythatifyoudonothave restroomsforthe public like on a rapid rail or light rail that you have to have an accessible restroom. So that's one of the issues. Also, currently there is an exception or a statement that says accessible restrooms are not requiredin dining cars and other food service cars where there is no restroom

for the public. And that was added in part because we were trying to accommodate Amtrak atthetime. ADAisanondiscrimination,soifyoudon'tprovidefacility for somebody, you don't have to provide it for anybody. You don't have to provide accessible ones. So in Amtrak every coach car has two restrooms. This is basically Amtrak's policy...except for some of those spaces like dining cars and some cafe cars and so forth where there is no accessible
-- there's no restroom for anybody. So the first part of the scoping says where there are restrooms for the public, you have to have an accessible one. Then it says a car with no accessible restrooms is not required to have
-- with no public restroom it is not required to have an accessible restroom. And here is the part that is an issue that we need to discuss and that is there are two different requirements. One for commuter rail and one for inner city and don't askmewhy they're different just because Iwrote the provision.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Dennis: In inner city, which is Amtrak, and by the way, inner city is defined as Amtrak in the statute, so all those other things like high
-speed rail technically are not inner city. Inner city is only Amtrak. It says the restroom shall be adjacent to the spaces for wheelchairs. In commuter rails it says the restrooms shall be in close proximity to. Now, in the existing
-- in the olderAmfleet cars the designwas the spacefor wheelchairs to be right at
-- right across from the door of the

restroom, which is adjacent to and so forth which means it would be adjacent. Frankly I have written in those cars many times and that's not really a convenient place to be, especially if there's no exhaust fan on the restroom. I don't personally like to have to sit right next to it. In the Acela, the accessible restroom is actually out in the vestibule. In other words, you go through the door to the compartment out into the vestibuletogettothe restroom,whichpersonallyIthinkisamuchbetter idea. So the question that arises is should it say adjacent? Should it say as I wrote here as close as practicable or is there some other question about the distance that one has to travel for a restroom and I'm wondering if what people think about that, those idea
-- we don't

-- in general when you're talking about a conventional inner city rail system, commuter or inner city, the two cars
-- two cars are coupled togetherwith a couple that allows a lot of lateral and vertical movement going through that junction from one car to another and was a big concern during the writing of this subtitle B with Steve and others in that he didn't want people to have to go from one car to another while the train was in motion. It's possible to go from one car to another in the Acela. I've done it many times. You go from the cabin to the cafe car for example. The floor between that
-- between those two cars is quite rough and so it's bumpy. One of the questions about
-- that's been raised recently about the attempt to put in some high
-speed rail is using what is called a fixedconsist train.

In other words, the cars is not separable. They're actually connected permanently one to the other and while they bend or rotate at that particular junction, they don't have any of the up and down or side to side motion that one would experience. I've seen some videos for example of
-- I think it should consend trains in Japan where there is a wheelchair user sitting in that doorway while the train is going through at high speed through some curves and even through some switches at the stations that show essentially no movement. So one of the questions or the big question is what do we want to say about the placement? Do we want to say the restroom should be adjacent to the spaces for wheelchairs or do we want to say in close proximity? Do we want to say as close as practicable? Do we want to define the distance? What are peoples' thoughts about that? Anybody? Especially wheelchair users? >> Could you say the choices again of phrases, in close proximity, adjacent or
-- >> As close as practicable. >> It sounds like in close proximity takes into the concern you articulated, but that's really just off the top of my head. This is Marilyn.Sorry.

>> Dennis, this is Blair. Just maybe for the sake of clarification, when you have fixed consist trains like the Acela where they're not coupled up -- a train set versus a locomotive coach that's an independent vehicle, it really affects
-- you know, as you have seen, give a lot of difference from what you can do from a maneuverability, a safe maneuverability standpoint for vehicles. As you know a lot of the existing cars we were doing things to try to, you know, get as compliant as we could with the old vehicles. With newervehicles Ithinkyou certainly
-- or newvehiclesyou certainly have a greater opportunity to place the accessible spaces and the restrooms so that they're
-- you know, you're not sitting right across from the restroom door, that kind of situation. I mean, that's always our goal because nobody wants to sit right across from the restroom.
>> Especially when the person inside hasn't appropriately latched the door and it keeps sliding open.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Well, I had that for the powered door in Spain and I'm not sure who was more embarrassed than me for opening the door or the person who was in there. It was all on a timer. You couldn't close anything. It was all going to go on its own sweet time, so just embarrassed. >> Dennis: Any other thoughts?>> I would say, Dennis, this is Blair again. The Acela depending on the

car you're in, because it has the single
-fixed diaphragm, which gives you that pathway that doesn't have a sheering effect that you see on regular cars, you have a nice sealed area which is environmentally conditioned and then there is the bi
-party doors that actually exist between what we call the unisex restroom and the accessible restroom, so one of the restrooms is more in the car body and the other is more in the vestibule if you want to think about it that way.

>> Dennis: The accessible one is out beyond the doors. But the other one, the small phone booth is inside. >> Yes. In fact, in some of the cars it was a phone booth. In others it's a restroom.

( LAUGHTER ) >> This is Ken. I guess the issue is that, you know, in
-- if you do have a brand
-new train set, you can do a whole bunch of other nice things in terms of the Talgo cars also have that, they're coupled together and they have a wide space between it. But for writing new regs, some of the cars, you know, Amtrak or other commuter rail providers might at some point buy train sets where all the cars are, you know, semipermanently coupled together but they're also going to be new cars that are going to be coupled with old cars. You know, I think reality is we're going to have a fleet of cars for another 20 years probably. So I thinkwe need towritewhatever the thing is and it needs to be written broadly so it emcompasss bothtrain set kind of cars and individual cars that will probably still be

coupled older. I think that, you know, is going to be a reality is older inaccessible cars or, you know, barely accessible cars will be coupled to newer cars in high
-- you know, fairly likely for some more generations maybe for decades at least. >> Well, this is Dennis, and that's true, there will be a lot of the old cars, but remember the guidelines that we're writing are only for new cars. So they will not apply to any of those things, and so it only will apply to -- it will only take effect at the implementation date that was established by DOT. So anything that's purchased prior to DOT's, whatever it is, is following the old regulations. The current regulations that are in effect today. Regulations that follow from the guidelines that this committee recommends fromthe boardwillonly apply to carsthat are purchased after that date whatever it is.

>> I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is likely there will be new cars that are purchased that will be intended to couple with old cars. We're not going to have all new cars that are all in train sets. I guess that's what I was trying to clarify. >> Yes. That's correct. And so what I was talking about is in a brand
-new -- let me give you a specific example from the Shincansand. Does anybody speak Japanese? They didn't know it was Shincasand or Shincasand. >> I think it's Shincasand, but I was born here, so don't mind me pronunciation.>> In that particular
-- there's an effort to try to get high
-speed rail

goingintheU.S. usingthat kindoftrainset. Thattrainsetasdesigned has restrooms in every other car. So there is no public restroom in half of its eight cars. I think there's six or something. And the issue is in the carwith the restroom as currently conceived there will be a space for a wheelchair there right in close proximity to. The space for the wheelchair in the other car will be at that same end, but in order to get to the restroom, you actually pass to the other car. And the difference between the fixed consist and the coupled consist is that that connection doesn't really move, and so the question is, is that acceptable? Anybody? >> What doesn't really move?

>> Dennis: The two cars don't move. They bend, but they don't have the lateral, the back and forth and the up and down movement with respect to each other the way the physical coupled cars do. >> This is Marilyn. Does this affect the restroom question or does this affect a different issue?

>> Dennis: It's the issue of the closeness. In otherwords, if you have to go -- if you go from a space in one car to the restroom in the next car and they're right at the same ends, does that meet the requirement of close proximity?Or, I mean, it could. It doesn't meet adjacent as the current reg says.

And is that okay? >> Well, could I clarify the question? This is Eloy Martinez calling from
-- representing the Texas Central High
-speed Rail Operation. What we're proposing in Texas is an 8-car train set that's based upon the Shincasend technology and what we're tryingtoaffordiseasyaccesstothewashroomor restroombyawheelchair patron, either from within the same car you have to go through a little bit of a vestibule in order to get there. Or from the adjacent car and due to the design or construction of the equipment thatwe have, you know, our equipment is very wide, we provide more than adequate space from one car to another. The doors are automatic so there's nothing that needs to be pressed in order to make that
-- to traverse that route. And the washroom is
-- the door to thewashroom iswide enough so that it's pretty easy access for anybody. And so the question that we have is, you know

-- or thatwas raisedwas, you know, in terms of a definition of adjacent, does adjacent really mean you have to be within the same car or I like the language of in close proximity because the access to the washroom is just as easy from either car in what we're trying to afford here. Oneof the reasonsthatthere isn't
-- there'svery little intercarmotion when you're going from the adjacent car into the car that has the accessible Beth room because
-- bathroom because of the types of curves that are involved in our system. So for right quality purposes in order to achieve the speeds that we're talking about, they are very, very gentle curves and so there's very, very small movement between
-- at the intercar connection. And so it'ssomething that's very easy to traverse and we have a video which we can

share at some point with members of the subcommittee that demonstrate that that Dennis referred to earlier. >> Sure. This is Chris. Hi. I think it would be great if we could figure out accessible...one thing that I want to point out and folks raise there is that
-- can be quite difficult so Gary Talbot fromAmtrak can speak to it more and technically travel around the country and it's hard to...and I think that the committee ought to think of it a bit about howwe dealwith that...whether it is reasonable to accept...high
-speed operation. >> Dennis: This is Dennis. The proposal or the idea would be that that would apply only to fixed consist cars. It would not apply to coupled cars. You're right. With coupled cars it would not be feasible to go fromone carto another. Andthe fixed consist car as shown in Shincasend has
-- if you bend through the connection in Acela for example, the floor that you go from one car to another is rigid and it's quite bumpy. But in the shincasend, the floor actually is a flat metal plate that has a taper on both ends and is probably about only two feed wide, something like that. Does notmove laterallyorverticallyor horizontally at that point. Only, again, only for the fixed consist car and part of the other scoping requirement was that they would have to be
-- that the path from that spot to the restroom would have to meet the requirements for an accessible onboard circulation which is being developed in the other subcommittee. >> Dennis, this is Paul Beatty. Just to let you know, David Nelson has raised his hand to ask a question. So the chair of the committee candecide when he can ask the question.

>> If it's about this, go ahead and ask now. >>Blairansweredforme. SotheTaobocars,Ithoughtthatitwasalready set up that...two cars each have their own accessible space and then an accessible restroom, that it's fixed. >> Dennis: That I can't answer. Is there somebody else that can answer whether Taboa is like that? >> Yes. Is Blair there? >> This is Dennis. I'm just trying to pull up floor plans for the Tabo to see what they look like. It's a little bit different beast because of the way the suspension works. It's more like an articulated train where wheels are shared between cars. The Shincasend, if you decouple the cars would stand by themselvess because from what I see they all have their own trucks, but if you look at the TBG and the Taobo
-type systems where they actually share suspension between cars, it becomes very different. It could be very good in an articulated train, but I think to your point, you want to write the caveat of articulated wide...and language that makes it very clear that if you're going to have this condition, it has to meet, you know, a strict criteria. I think what you'll find is that providers...because for a given train it could increase, you know, revenue seating capacity on the trains. And without... >> Blair, you're fading in and out. >> Yeah, you're breaking up. >> I'm sorry. Is this better? I'm closer to the phone now. >> Yeah.>> But let me if I could I'm looking up some information on the Taobo

to answer David's question specifically about thevehicle restroom-wise. But I think if you're careful about how you write the caveat for permanently or semipermanently coupled trains and articulated trains thatyou could have avery nice pathway between the carwithout any issue. Whatmake saythe Japanesetrainsversus theAcela,theAcela is connected in a very similar way, but you get -- you still get some vertical motion but you don't get the sheering action that you get on a traditional car because the diaphragm, the pathway is truly connected car to car. The folks from the Texas high
-speed trains, when you get into stations where you're not concernedwith speed, you're going to be back into areas where the pathway between cars if you are using traditional cars could be compromised... >> Faded out again, Blair. >> I'm going to pick the phone up now. Is that better? >> It just keeps cutting in and out. You drop a word here and there. >> Oh. >> It's not fading so much as it just stops. >> Just cuts in and out. You know, I
-- >>Theopening between the inner car is about 27 -- a littleover 27 inches and from
-- and the door opening is about
-- is a little over 36. >> Okay.>> Between the cars it's not the 32 that we have talked about. But the

space for...is compartmentalized for ADA seating location. >> Okay. >> This is Dennis and the requirement would be that this connection whatever it is has to meet the requirements for accessible onboard circulation, so itwould have to be 32 inches clear period oryou couldn't do it and then we could probably establish and should establish issues anthisis reallyyourcommittee,Blair,thingslikequarterinchvertical maximum, all of the things thatwe talk about in buildings and facilities about surfaces, floor surfaces. >> Right. And Dennis, I would go a little further and say you would want the clear aisle space to be maintained over the entirety of the route. Because you don't want someone -- even with a full diaphragm, connected diaphragm, that space when the cars are moving through very tight spaces like going into Washington or New York through the switches, you can get

-- you won't get the sheering action, but you can get the space changing. It may be maintaining 32 inches, but the path is changing shape.

( LAUGHTER ) >> From being maybe a rectanglean to a -- so you want to put something this there to say you have to design the geometry of the scale things so that those dimensions are maintained over the intended operating path of the train. >> That language
-- again, this is Eloy from Texas Central High
-speed Rail. That language is actually very good language. I agreewith that.The specific operation thatwe're suggesting inTexas is basically avery

straight shot between Dallas and Houston and coming into stations, you know, the stations are being planned such that there's not going to be the need to traverse through multiple switches in order to get over to a particular platform. It's coming Brett -- pretty much straight in and result of that we're going to be able to provide superior access from the platform on to the equipment and then cars on to the equipment. >> Well, and that is the best situation. You're building a new infrastructure, new trains and everything is completely within your control.

>> And this is Dennis. And that's what I think would
-- what I'm talking about is that it has to meet some strict requirements and one of them is essentially that you have got general curve and essentially new infrastructure. So it would only apply
-- the ability to move from one car to another or the need to move from one car to another would only apply in those strict requirements. It would not apply to your standard coupled cars on any other system. >> This is Ken. Blair, can you just explain which direction sheering means in the car when you're saying
-- >> Okay. If you take the very end of two cars that are coupled together, the device that compresss between the cars is the diaphragm. >> Right. >> And if the car is
-- they're two separate vehicles. They're not like theAcelawhere they're physically bolted together. When you go througha reverse curve or not so much a regular switch, when you go through a

reversing curve as you're going into a station or getting lined up for tunnels and various things, changing tracks even out on the railroad, you get a situation where one of the cars is still in the radius of one curve and the other one is already in the radius of a reversing curve. And so because of the distance from the center line of the trucks or the Bogies to the end of the car, you get a swing of the end of the car and you could actually get a sheering action of the diaphragms where let's say the space is
-- if it's 30 inches wide or 32 inches wide, it could narrow down to, you know, 10 or 15 inches. >> Right. Now I'm visualizing
-- the way you're describing it, now I'm visualizing it. Thank you. >> Okay. No problem.

>>Okay. ThisisDennis. Ithinkwehavedecidedthattheproperwording is in close proximity. So that's like the first part of this. The second part is whether there needs to be or should be an allowance for moving between cars under certain specified type conditions. Does that sum up what we're saying? >> And that being fixed or articulated trains? Not the coupling a brand
-new accessible car to an Amfleet car or something? >> No. No. It would have to be a fix cars moving between have to be fixed and the pathway has to meet the requirements for accessible
-- whatever we're calling this thing. I call it accessible onboardcirculation path. But we need a name for that, Blair. Whatever we're

calling it. We don't want to use accessible route because that's already defined somewhere and sowe have to create this for the right
-of
-way and so forth. It would only apply to that. It only applieswhen you have got the fixed thing. It only applies under all the curve conditions on the
-- that it doesn't change. It's always 32 inches clear, no matter what. And that the surface on which you meet the requirements for bumps and whatever. Anybody have a problem with that concept? >> That sounds good to me. >> I think that's okay. >> Okay for me. >> Dennis: Okay. Can we go now to the technical requirements? And I have already heard earlier on about there is an issue where we had said that it needs to have a 60
-inch turn
-in circle in it. I wrote in red after that or T
-turn because T
-turns are typically something that's used in the building environment as an alternative to the 60-inch circle and I don't know if we want to include that or not. I think one of the issues Iwant to ask the people
-- thewheelchair users who have ridden on the Acela and have used that restroom, whether that meets certain criteria. I thought that there was a 60-inch turning circle in there and I think Andre, I think that'swho sent it, sent me a drawing of theAcela restroom and it is not fixed...in that it meets the old core requirements for thisrectangular space that's given the very core design restroom with the

requirements but a side transfer and so what you have created in there is essentially an L-shape space which works in terms of at least for me to be able to turn completely around and maneuver very nicely. So the question is
-- and I would like of the people who have actually used that restroom, does it work for you and if so, is that an alternative design given that, you know, the space constraints on a train car and if it is, how do we write it? Or do we simply say that you must have the current, you know, rectangular space plus side transfer which is what the Acela gives you. So I would like to hear from the people who are wheelchair users and who have used that restroom to find out whether it works. >> Real quick. This is David and I don't know if we're having technical problems with the conference cause because I'm getting a lot of static on the line. You cut out a little bit here and there. >> This is Paul Beatty speaking. I know that according to the operator, Dennis, we're getting a lot of static from your line. Also we do know that as we have been listening, at least three people, not including Dennis,werecuttingoutandwe sortofmentionedthatwhenweweretalking to Blairandthatmight be an issue relatedto people using speakerphones. >> Okay. >> I'm using Skype so I don't know if that's causing problems or not. But I'm getting static too. Hello? >> Yeah, we hear you.>> Yeah. It's
-- this is Marilyn.

>> The disturbances are tolerable for me. I don't know if they may not be for others. >> Turning circle, let's get the that particular provision. Couple that with the outside transfer. How many people would
-- how many wheelchair users have used the Acela restroom on the call? Anybody? >> I have used it. >> And does it work for you? Chris? >> It works. However, aside from ideal. >> Okay.

>> Has anybody used
-- this is Uwe. Has anybody used the Acela washroom for assisted transfer? Somebody else who has to help you get from your chair to the toilet?

>> Nobody.>> It would be a lot more difficult than say Dallas or Ft. Worth train

or California or the Central corridor cars.

>> Chris, do those cars have a 60
-inch turn
-in circle?

>> Those are bigger. Acelas actually have a full 60-inch turn circle. They are some of the higher speed rail cars available in Europe and Asia.

>> This is Uwe. One of the main reasons for the 60
-inch circle is also that people
-- or a person in the wheelchair wants to go into the washroom facing in and when they are leaving the washroom also facing out so there has to be a way of, you know, going in, ma moveing inside
-- ma moveing inside that allows you to do this. Now, if the T set up is working for that purpose then, I'm all for it. But I think that one of the main reasons is you want to face inward and face outward.

>> Unless you are a really good
-- and unless you're operating at very, very high speeds, what you're getting to be is it gets more difficult when you have got to sway side to side working against you. >> Okay. So I'm hearing basically that adding the T-turn seems like a good ideaand we still want to keep it a 60
-inch turn
-in; is that right?

>> I would say that would be a great idea because it...

>> Okay. >> This is Jonathan Michel at Rail Plan. I don't know if anyone has been on the super liner ADA Coach lower level. Blair, has
-- Chris, have you been on that one?
>> Not in... >> You were referring to a sleeper? >> Yes. A sleeper. >> This is the compartment I have. >> This is Blair. I finally made it back on again. The line is so bad I couldn't hear. Can you hear me now? >> Yes, we can. >> Great. The car that Jonathan is talking about, we have only done one or two so far, and they are coaches.They're the oldest of super liner 1 coaches and that
-- I believe that

restroom was on display at the Boston interior show
-- >> Yes, that's correct.
>> And I think that has a 60
-inch turning circle in it. >> It is really
-- I believe it's more of an oval. It is a 60-inch on the length and I believe 58 on the width because of the hand drier. , But it's near
-- I believe it's nearly a 60
-inch diameter. >> Does it permit a side
-- this is Ken. Does it permit a side transfer?
>> Yes. >> I guess none of us have seen it.

( LAUGHTER ) >> It sounds like
-- this is Marilyn. The variety of options mean that there is a need to specify a 60 or T and a side transfer since they may not be colocated. >> Yes. This is Dennis. I would say we need to say both.

>> This is Marilyn again. And is there any question about whether doing that gives us what we need?I mean, Chris, I don't know what your -- you know, it sounds like you

managed that you would like additional requirements of some kind or -- >> I just think that based on the prior...whatwe're seeing in California and bilevel that...whereas the same design as what is operating between Dallas and Ft. Worth that is a design nobody has raised complaints about

-- versus some more compact ones where folks are really concerned.
I do think there is also a concern that when you do get into assisted transfers this space, that may not necessarily be in the current design. >> This is Dennis. It sounds to me like what we need is to have some ofthosediagramsavailablefor
-- andattheveryleast,forthecommittee to look at and maybe for technical assistance manual so that we can -- so the board can issue things that say here are suggestions for how you meet these requirements. So I really like to see those drawings if we can. I'm not sure how to get them. But... >> You mean for the kind of space requirements for assisted and nonassisted transfers?

>> No. I'mthinkingof thedesignsthat have already beendonethatChris is mentioning that seem to work. That say here's things that we think

-- here's designs that seem to be accessible and I would really like to be able to show people that, especially the train designers to say here is something you should kind of shoot for because these work. >> Dennis, this is Blair. I can get you copies of what's in use on the Pacific Surf Liners which I think is what Chris is referring to. Andthe new design for the Super Liner lower level restrooms and the...if

it was done I think that...facilitation on that because we were able to create a situation for side transfer but we couldn't get all of the dimensions, you know, the required dimensions, but the thinking was because itworked better, that itwas still a good thing. So as I recall, and it's been a while now, there was an equivalent facilitation done for that restroom.

>> Okay. This is Uwe, Dennis. I can get you some examples from trains in Canada and in Europe that show the dimensions that are required for assisted transfers. >> That would be great. >> Yeah, I will get them to you before our next meeting. >> Okay. I think this is the last meeting before the general committee meeting, at which point we want to present something to the full committee which is at least sort of
-- some kind of consensus from the subcommittee. >> Right. I'll try to get them to you next week. >> Okay. >> Dennis, this is Blair. And I think you may have already said this before, but the subject of sinks, of a wash basin and its proximity to the toilet, I mean, one of the things that we have always thought was important was the ability to wash up before you transfer back to the wheelchair. And I have seen designs for restrooms where the sink is on one side ofthe room and the toilet's on the other.

So, you know, getting to the sink required transferring back, to the wheelchair and going into the room, so is that something that we ought to put in here to -- or we may have already covered it before and I'll apologize. >> No, it's not in here, but we do talk about grab bars, one of which the one on the side can be along in front of the
-- and that's essentially whattheAcela does. I'm not sure ifyou can reachthe labfromthetoilet in the Acela. It's close but I'm not sure if you can actually get there. >> Right. And like I say, some of them can, but from a user perspective, is that something that we ought to include? And I've also spoken to people who are ambulatory but had colostemy bags and things like that and said boy it would really be nice to use a sink before you leave to take care of all those sanitary issues so I mean, I would say why not make that a requirement. >> This is Uwe. Blair, you're totally right. That's a very good requirement and we have discussed this many times. Very often it is not possible or people couldn't do it because it conflicts sometimes with the space you have near the toilet for transfers. But ideally it would be very good to have this in the proximity of the toilet where you can reach it from the toilet position, yes. >> Okay. This is Dennis. Anybody else got -- I'll add that to our report if that's
-- I'm not sure we can -- well, close enough to be reached from seated on the toilet and we have to have designers figure out the actual mechanism of what youdo. Because if you put it too close to the toilet, like back beside the

toilet, then you couldn't reach it from the wheelchair You just wanted to use the lab. But if it's a design issue, I don't think we can settle it at this regulatory requirement. But something like reachable from within reach of a person sitting only toilet, I think that makes sense. Anybody else have any comments about that?

>> This is Andre. One comment I have on the T-turn...were you referring to the ICCA
-17 for the shape of this area, the T
-area?

>> The T-turn is this common thing that's in the ADA/ABA accessibility guidelines. I'm not sure it's still called that these days. Jim Pecht, do you know? Is it still there? >> Yep. It's still there. >> It basically allows you to cut off the corners to put stuff in the corners so that you
-- you may have to maneuver and actually as Chris points out any maneuvering that you have to do is complicated by the fact that the train is moving. So we have to be careful about that, but I think we can't be more specific about how to tie that down and hope the designers will come up with ideas that maybe they can test it prototype. But anybody
-- so T-turn is kind of a term of art from the ADA/ABA Access Board guidelines. >> All right. So I will refer to that then. I can provide a sketch of what a T-turn looks like, at least the area looks like inside the Acelarestroom. I provided you already with the turning circle, 60
-inch

turning circle, so I can add to that by providing the T
-turn. >> This is Ken. Andre,are theTrinity
-- the Dallas Ft.WorthTrinity rail cars, Bombarte bilevel cars? >> Where the ends are tapered? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I believe so. Yes. >> Do you know if you have drawings of the restrooms in those cars because I've been on those cars in the Northstar out of Minneapolis and they don't have
-- theirs, the toilet is not -- it's sort of diagonally into a corner rather than out so that you can do a side transfer, but maybe
-- do you have different restrooms in different
-- that have been ordered by different transit authorities or commuter authorities?

>> No. There's only one type of restroom. This isAndre. There's only one type of restroom that exists for these types of vehicles and it's fairly small restroom. It does not meet the ADA regulation, but it has an equivalence approval by the FDA and universal drawings and stuff like that. But it's a small restroom. So what we're working on right now with this 60
-inch circle or a T
-turn inside the restroom is totally different and would provide for more
-- a much bigger restroom space. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So I could provide at least a sketch of what it looks like in terms of dimension. But I don't think it's a good point of reference for therestroom for the future.

>> Right. Just becauseChris had said he has not heard any problems about it. But maybe he just had not heard problems about it because clearly

-- I don't remember how big it was, but it clearly did not have a side transfer ability, I don't think. >> No. It's front transfer, so maybe we're talking about different vehicles now. >> Yeah, maybe that's where the confusion is. We'll have to follow up with Chris later. Thank you. >> This is Dennis. Let's try and move on a little bit hear. >> This is Marilyn. Actually I have one last question about that. I am wondering if the fact that you have, you know, bouncing and swaying on a train is, you know, wheelchairs, a T
-turn doesn't really replace a 60-inch turning circle. Just throwing that out there for discussions.

>> Yeah. This is Dennis, and I think you may be right and I don't think we'll know until we actually look at some drawings and see whether or not it works. But you're right. T
-turns can be tricky and especially since the car is moving, it makes them more difficult. But I don't think we can say -- I condition say off the top of my head that it wouldn't work. >> Well, it seems to me that we know it will work for some people. But whether we can say it works for everyone -- now, there may be some people who there isn't any design that works, but, you know, I mean, moving with

-- going with the general thrust that we're accommodating, you know, a high percentile,Iwouldjustputacoupleofquestionmarksonthatfutureprovision. That may need to be evaluated.

>> Okay. I'll put that in parentheses and say that this needs further discussion. >> Thanks. >> Okay. So if we can move on. We're talking about side transfer. We got power doors. That's about the controls and operating mechanism sections that are going to be somewhere about reach ranges and force and so forth. And the other provision about the 12-inch minimum from inside a corner, that was in the last draft and I added this statement that said it doesn't apply to the latch or knob that you use for manual operation. Did I lose everybody?
>> No. No.
>> No. You didn't lose us.

>> My other phone is ringing and the last time that happened is because I was dropped from the call. So, okay... so the handle as I think mentioned that it needed to be close to the edge in order to be able to actually latch and I said okay, well then don't make that 12
-inch minimum thing apply to lap handles. Lap handles is for manual operationwhen the power fails and the power buttonhas to be 12 inches out of the inside corner. Anyone have any concerns

about that? Hearing none...we talked about grab bars and use the requirements general

-- >> I'm sorry. Can you clarify a little bit. I got a little lost about that. The 12
-inch manual, what does that mean exactly?

>> Okay. What happens in a lot of these
-- first of all we're requiring a power door. But in a lot of the manual operations, the latches and the locks when you're doing a manual sliding door, they're in an inside corner and so they're so close to the edge that your foot rest get in the way when you try to reach forward to get the controls. So we wanted to have a power door and we wanted to make sure the button that you push to open and close it is not in that corner right up against the corner. It's got to be out from the corner a bit so you can actually reach it. And one of the issues was raised last time was, well, the handle that you need to operatewhen you're not doing the button, it needs to be close to that latch point. Close to where the door meets the wall. And so you can't have it really
-- I guess you could with some fancy mechanism. There used to be a provision in the old Amtrak that if the button could latch, it was on the other side of the door and nobody remembered to push it and that'swhen you were sitting next to the toilet the door would slide open. So what I wanted to say is that the requirement to be 12 inches out from that inside corner doesn't apply to that latch that you use in manual operation because we're assuming that most of the time you're going to be pushing a button to open and close the door.>> Makes sense.

>> Okay. >> Dennis, this is Andre. Also this latch, I think when Frank was discussing this issue earlier, I was still having in mind the fact that we use latches right now, mechanical latches. When you have an electrical power door, then you just push a button and it opens and closes so you're not going to have that latch in the same position just like a side door on a vehicle. You don't have a big latch on it between doors to hold the doors together. So hopefully these latches are going to disappear with
-- within the near future. >> I expect there will be
-- there has to be some thing that's there when the power fails that opens it. So that's what I was trying to cover. The thing you use in manual operation. But you're right, you should get rid of most of the latches and handles and so forth. Because we talked about grab bars across the front of a lab and we talked about allowing a full
-bound grab bar on the open side of the closet and people were concerned that it might interfere with maneuvering clearance and specified that it might need force requirement for folding and deploying and does not intrude into the required floor space when it's deployed. I guess that should be when it's not deployed. >> That's correct. >> And when the laboratory controls we talked about being proximity activated which is typically infrared. Might be something else but I suspect generally infrared is what you get and I believe Blair saidthey're going to that kind of system anyway.

>> Yeah, Dennis, this is Blair. What we're finding is that on some of the older cars where the water of the gravity
-base system, the automatic faucets with their electric valves depend on having a fair amount of pressure to work properly, so some of those cars with gravity feed we're actually having to go back to a mechanical automatic closing faucet because we only get like a few drips of water out of the darn thing very frustrating and I thought it was just an electric Solanol valve that open and close but it does require the water pressure to function properly but that's creating a bit of a quandry but I think through time we'll sort through that. I had a question about the grab bars. In the regs, the existing regs lookingat inner city iswrittenthe samewaythroughout the different rail modes, it says a grab bar at least 24 inches long shall be mounted behind thewater closet and the horizontal grab bar of at least 40 inches long shall be mounted on at least one side wall with one end not more than 12 inches from the back wall. And a height between 33 and 36 inches above the floor. Now, we have had situations where because of the geometry of the room we would take the long bar back and turn the corner and there was implicate that vertical was okay. We have got some where it's a vertical grab which has some value, but there's been a lot of discussion over time whether that was intended to be a 24
-inch horizontal or a vertical and I wonder if we just need to clarify that

-- vertical obviously has some uses, but should there be a better definition there that include a vertical and horizontal reference for those?

>> I was assuming that it was going to be using
-- it doesn't say that,does it?

Well, yes, it does. My understanding is in the new bathing facilities
-- or at least if ANSI maybe. Maybe it's not in the ABA/ADA. There is a provision for a vertical grab bar but there's also a horizontal one. Jim, do you have that? >> The vertical is in the ANSI document at the moment. We don't have one in the board
-- >> Yeah, this is Marilyn. The vertical grab bar is really great for some groupings of peoplewith disabilities. You know, ambulatory people,you know, older people who need it for standing up, et cetera, and various other uses. It doesn't replace the horizontal grab bar though, and there is an ANSI requirement for it. But it's not instead of. That's my -- I don't know
-- that's my understanding of the role of the vertical grab bar. >> This is Jim. That's correct. >> This is Blair. And just speaking from the railroad side of the house and I think for clarity because we get into, you know, into ANSI. We get into the architectural side. If anything that we can do here, and I say this because...and so having those grab bars... >> You're dropping off again, Blair. >> Bear with me just a second. I think someone -- oh, can you hear me now? >> You're coming through. There's just some noise sometimes. >> I think someone forgot to pay the bill. Anyway, though, think anything that we can give the definition on herethat doesn't require, you know, running to all those other various other

outside of the railroad standards... >> This is Dennis. What we did with buses and what we did with rights of ways and so forth is where there were provisions that we wanted to borrow from buildings and facilities, we took those provisions and put them physically in the requirement so you didn't have to look at a different document and so that's what I'm hoping that the board will do this time. Those provisions are right there and when we did rights of way, we took some of them and then modified them slightly to make them more pertinent to the right of way and so I'm assuming that that's what the board will do when it writes these guidelines and I think that it's
-- when I say usability in the building requirements I might also reference ANSI because there might be good pieces in there. >> Yeah, this is Marilyn. That would be a good policy for every set of guidelines the board puts out to include anything
-- you know, you never have to go to an outside document. >> Right. Okay. Anymore on this? Dining cars...didn't have a scoping. It'swell provided and that's sort of general for all of the standards where you have it. Table space, transfer seats, mats, under side and the
-- anything else we need to do there? >> Dennis, this is Uwe. Just one more item for the washroom. Shouldwe include the emergency call button?

>> Ah...yes. Good idea.

>> This is David. Also if we can -- I think that we need to make sure that the emergency call button is not near the flush button.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Okay. >> This is Marilyn. There is a lot of funny stories attached to when it is. ( LAUGHTER ) >> I think it's specified in the building code for the dimensions and we can take these and then put them into our requirements in here aswell. >> Okay. >> This is Blair. Not to wander off in the weeds, but I have to tell you folks this real quick on the Acelas. For those who have seen those trains for a while, you remember that the original flush device was a handle. It looked like a handle on a toilet at home. And it was done that way because there's push buttons everywhere on trains and didn't want it to look like just another train. So people go into trains expecting
-- and planes, expecting to push buttons. So they push the only button they could find which was the attendant call button and notthe handle that looked like like that toilet at home and so we had to

go to the push button and it looks fine now.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Okay. Sleeping department, at least one...in each sleeping car and the technical requirements are toilet requirement shall install and so forth

-- turn-in circles where the bed is deployed. That's important because right now you can't move once the bed is down. Controls lights for everything within reach or you can have a duplicate control. One is a remoteorevenyoumightevendevelopanappforyourSmartphonetocontrol all the lights and that's somewhere down the line. Positive door latch operable outside from train personnel. Reference to use the vehicles as a kind of a model of what's possible. I don't want to make that like this is the design you have to follow but that's an example of how you can do that. The bed atwheelchair height and provides a table again meeting all those other kinds of requirements. Anything in there needs to be discussed? >> Dennis, this is Jim. I got one question for you. I assume you mean a shower
-- a fixed shower seat. Not a shower chair, which I is a term of art, I think of as a movable piece of furniture. Is that correct?

>> Some people want to use or is transferred into a shower chair and then over to the shower.>> Yeah. What I'm talking about is a fixed seat mounted to the wall in

the shower compartment and it might pull out or pull down
-- >> It's a pull down seat. >> That's what I was talking about. We'll change that to make sure -- >> This is David here. Now, you talked about the Arail model. I'm not sure what that is. Can I look that up via website?

>> The diagram or the drawing that we put forth was in the last meeting I.'s a line drawing that was presented for us and it was on the
-- I don't know whether the stuff from previous meetings has been archiveed somewhere. Jim? Jim Pecht. >> This is Paul Beatty speak. Anything from previous meetings has been placed on the regulations.gov website except for the last conference call. We haven't added that on yet. >> Okay. Our last is roomsand spaceswe had adrawingoftheVOLaccessible sleeper design. >> And that is Paul speaking. That was added. That was at the July meetingandthat'sonthewebsite regulations.gov. IfyougototheARVAC website, there is a link that brings you to the material an regulations.gov. >> Perfect. Thank you. >> Okay.>> This is Marilyn. I had a question about the sleeper.

Were you finished? Were you on a roll there of finishing your description?

>>Yeah. What do youwant to say about
-- just talked about the technical requirements. Go ahead.

>>Well,thisisanissuethatmaynotbewithinthesubcommittee'spurview or whatever, but then it's just sort of a -- I want to put maybe an after in some peoples' minds in looking ahead and how the committee fit together. Becauseon the subcommittee I guess it's Blair subcommittee's where we're talking about vertical access. There was this idea that people who are using the accessible sleeper can avail themselves of it if the accessible sleeper is put in a certain car. You know, put like on the ground floor of the car that has the vertical access. It was just a wild idea of how to make it possible to make both of them available to the individual. I don't think it fits within the four walls of the subcommittee. And there may be 100 reasons why we can't do it and now is not the perfect time for that discussion, but there will be a time. And so I just
-- so I want to -- I just want to point out that the sleeper has to be accessible and then when we get to fitting all the pieces together we have to think about where the person who uses that car can go. Who uses that facility can go.>> Right. As in the current cars they're sort of stuck in the lower level

of a car and can't go anywhere else. >> Right. >> So I guess raising it as a flag for a later date. >> Like
-- and we'll have to deal with that
-- there is a whole range of issues about what to do about that. Part of the issue, a small piece of it is sort of covered in the lounge car, which the single of the lounge car available and the single level could apply to the provisions below. Bilevel lounge cars apply on the lower level. And there may or may not be a requirement at some point but vertical access in the lounge car. But there is a provision and I couldn't find it actually in DOT that says when you have a bilevel dining car and which by the way is statutorily prohibited for us to make any requirements for those bilevel dining cars in terms of space and seating and whatever; that there's provision on the lower level of the lounge car for an accessible restroom and accessible seating. Now, what I said in this new scoping provision is it says where vertical access is provided, accessible seating and spaces shall also be provided on the upperlevel. Wherebileveldining caris provided,anaccessiblebilevel lounge car shall be directly coupled to it. And then I would suggest that in our report that we recommend
-- or ask that the Access Board recommend
-- or that we cover the issue when the
-- when this is adopted by DOT, that DOT establishes an operational procedure that says in that case you have to have the same services available in the dining car has to be available in the upper level
-- or in the lounge car period.So if you get essentially a double dining car in that provision. But

you have to provide the same services in the lounge car that you provide in the bilevel dining car. Anybody have questions about that provision?

>> Dennis, this is Blair, and my thinking was and tell me if the statute applies to this, is that if you had an accessible
-- a vertically accessibleloungethatwasaccessibleendtoendoratleasttooneextreme end,thatyouhavetheopportunityofhavinganaccessiblediner. Imean, it would work either way. We have converted some of our lounges to include the contact same table that are in the diners, so it functionally would work either way. I would say though
-- because I think when the original ADA was crafted, were a little more cut and dry. There were lounge cars and there were diners. And now we have
-- and we have seen through time a lot of the vehicles where you have cars that are above within the same vehicle. So it might be worth adding that into the wording as well, multiuse cars that are, you know, dining and lounge or whatever their multiple use is, that we don't let those slip through the cracks or leave them underdefined and create confusion later. >> Right. And this is Dennis. When working on this provision in the house at least there was some concerns by Damon's committee and his aide that if the board or anybody, DOT said that there had to be a certain number of spaces, seating spaces on the upper level of a bilevel dining car, that thatwould forcevertical access requirements and they didn't want that to happen. So that's why the statute expressly says you cannot require spaces or restrooms on a bilevel dining car. So if you're going to do anything about the diningcar it's going to be because there is a lounge car that's next to it and

you're getting service there and that's really an operational issue that DOT will have to address. >> Okay. We typically, and I think this would always be the case unless a car had a problem and was taken out, that if you have a diner, you have a lounge in the bilevel conditions. It would be
-- there were trains we ran at one time where, you know, partway of the route portion where the train separated off andwent to a different place and took the lounge. So now that train was left with just a diner and no lounge and then the other train had a lounge and no diner, so... >> Isn't that the way the Empire still works in the last stretch from

-- one goes to Northern Washington, one goes to Southern Washington or something? Or not?

>> Ken, this is Blair. I'm not sure. Iwould have to look. I know that train does or did some strange gyration out there. >> Right. I think it splits for the last. One goes to Northern Washington State. One goes south or something. >> This is Dennis and one of them
-- I know when you go from Washington, D.C. to Tampa or Miami that the train splits at Jacksonville. In fact, when you get on the train in Washington, they ask you where you're going because you have to be in the right half of the train to get there. One half of it goes off and the other half goes off I think to Miami. I know I have ridden on that a couple of times. So that's true at least a couple of places. I don't know how it's divided. >> Well, we don't split those anymore. But they can always come back.You know, you always have that situation but I was just most concerned

about where we had considers that become dual use. You know, it may be a lounge/diner or some other name that can be one or the other or both. And sometimes there is the opportunity to -- you know, if it has lounge service down stairs, I don't care what it does upstairs, it needs to be

-- the down stairs has to be accessible and if we go vertical, then whatever is upstairs needs to be accessible no matter what you call the car. >> Right. >> This is David here. Now, I think that what Ken was mentioning is the Polar car. Now, that was for the first
-class passengers. So it's a different type of dining lounge car than the regular standard dining and lounge cars. >> Okay. This is Dennis. I will try to craft some maybe advisory information or something that says thatwe should be clear thatwe're not leaving things out; that there may be some cars that are combination that need to borrow these requirements in each of the parts of it. So if it's part dining, part lounge, then the lounge part has to comply to lounge and the dining the dining. Does that make sense? >> That sounds good. >> And the technical provisions are simple.Dining car has an accessible restroom. The subset areas we sort of

generally discussed the idea this needs to comply with the guidelines for cafeterias, trays and the turns. And vending machines because in the train decided that vending machines unlike other places are actually fixed need to have some provisions for controls and operating mechanisms and I'm not sure about are there currently, Jim, provisions for point of sale? Jim Pecht?

>> Not currently, no. >>Okay. Sowewanttomakesurethevendingmachinesareusableifyou're going to have self
- service and I guess vending machines should be self
service as well as vending. I don't know if you want to call them that or not. But the machines, if you're going to assume that people get their own stuff, those things have to be accessible. Anything you need to add to this provision? >> I had a comment. This is Jonathan Michel. I guess considering the way that the aviation industry has been going with kind of its mixed use larger spaces. If the rail industrial does decide to go to, you know, a larger floor plan in the near future or even in the next 10 to 20 years, I think we should try to, you know, think that far ahead. It could be that in the future we're no longer talking about an ADA room. But we're talking about, you know, almost like a first
-class space that's maybe boxed in but not fully incapsulateed. I don't know, that's just something that I thought might be interestingto voice
-- to think about if we're developing this right now.

>> Okay. I'm not sure how to frame that. >> I'm not sure where it would fall, if it would fall on just regular coach or if it would fall underneath a sleeper. I think it ends up being a hybrid of both. But I do think it's something that operators might see in the near future as something that is viable based on -- because of the amount of floor space that can be gained and what people would be willing to pay for it. >> Hmm...well, this is Dennis. Here is a thought. In the current regulations I think it's sub part H, it's sort of other. It's anything else that we didn't cover and it says if you have a transportation system that doesn't fit in the previously defined provisions, any of them, doesn't mean you're off the hook. It still has to be accessible. Accessibility provisions have to be cleared by DOT with conversation with the Access Board and set forth the specifics of how it is you're going to make it accessible. Example of this was somebody
-- there is in Europe. Not sure where, somebody was proposing to put one here. Essentially a people mover kind of system in which it was a cable driven and the cars never stopped moving. When they got to the platform, the platform was moving as well and it moved at the same speed as the cars. I think they have these in Disneyworld or Disneyland too. So you go straight on from the moving platform to the moving vehicle and the question is how do you make that accessible. And another thing was Chicagowasoriginallygoingtobuilda rapidtransitsystemwhichdoesn'tquite fit into any of the nice
-- and so the RTA from Chicago came with

a consultant and presented to DOT and the board its plan of how it was going to make them accessible, what it was going to do and it had to be approved. So we could put a provision similar to that in here that says if you have a space that doesn't meet specifically these requirements you have to apply to the provider a plan of how you're going to make it accessible and it has to be approved by DOT with input from the board. So does that work for you? >> Yeah, I would agree with that. >> Yeah. This is Marilyn. Yeah. >> Okay. Are you done? >> I had a
-- this is Marilyn. I had a question. And I don't know if this is
-- is this committee or this is another subcommittee, but
-- and it may be the circulation subcommittee. Have we -- has someone paid attention to
-- and I don't know all the terminology, but is a lounge cardifferent from just anordinary carwhere people sit? But have we paid attention to accessible spaces having all the amenities

-- all the passenger amenities that other spaces have? That other seating has? Work surfaces for example that are proximate to you and so forth?>> I think that's covered under the onboard circulation part because

that's the subcommittee that's dealing with the accessible wheelchair spaces, and I don't know whether we specifically covered that but I have in the back of my mind is that it has to be because the statute says you have to have a hard surface on which to eat which was intended to be a table that which got translated into you can balance a plastic tray on your lap and that meets the requirement and as far as I'm concerned, that is not what was intended. And we need to make it clear that you have to have a table, something that's attached to either a wall or the car or on the back of the seat in front of you like it is on an airline, so

-- and controls
-- I think Amtrak is pretty much putting electrical controls at all the seating locations. I know that's true on the Acela so you can plug in your computer and charge your phone and there is also a call button. I'm not sure what it does, where it goes to. I know on the ice train I was told in Germany that the
-- all the conductors wear pagers and if you push the button, the pager beeps and tells you where that is coming from. I don't know if that's the way it works
-- that's rally an operational issue from DOT, not the design of the car. Youwant to make sure there is a call button at the seat and all the controls for things like the lights and the, you know, whatever else you might have have to be within reach and use. >> This is Marilyn again. You know, that's right, and I think it's interesting that you mention the hard surface requirement, which I certainly agree with your representation of that. But that's the requirement independent of other passengers having that amenity because it'sa replacementforaccesstothediningcar. It'sapoor replacement,but it'stheretogiveyouat leasttheabilitytoeatameal ina civilized

way or something. The other passengers have a table to work on so you get a table. Other passengers have an electrical outlet, so you get one too. And thatwould have to apply to space -- transfer spaces as well as wheelchair spaces. But anyway, it sounds like it's another subcommittee. So... >> This is Blair. How to word that, but what I tried to explain to folks is think about it in terms of let's say a car has 70 seats and out of those 70 seats 50 of them are in the clear view of a window and the rest of them are sort of scattered about and maybe they're next to a post or whatever or they're in a corner. But that the accessible space should be from that standpoint, should at least be equivalent to what is their

-- I don't want to say the best, but what is the typical space in the car, and I think that would help us get to the point where we're not creating these dark little corners with no windows, which we have been guilty of before. But it puts some heat into that so that when people are considering, okay, we have to have this space and we have to have this amenity and all that, typically you don't find that the personwho's usingthewheelchairis
-- itmaybe hasalltheotheramenitiesbutdoesn't have a window which is a very basic part of traveling Britain. And they may be one of only two or three people in the car that can't get to a window or they may be the only one that can't get to a window, so I've been trying to think about how to word that and if you have got any thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

>> Well, you can just require
-- this is Marilyn. Those are interesting questions. If the one amenity in question here is the window becauseit has the other things, you can just specify that it has access to a

window or something like that. >> Right. >> And you can just go in and say that explicitly. >> Yes. And you take the Acela as an example, there is a seat that you can transfer to that has a table and that same table is the one that's available if you decide to stay in your wheelchair. The other seat that's just for transfer is like every other seat except it has a flip
-up armrest and you use the tray that I believe that's in front of you from the seat in front of you. So if there is a way to put that into words so that it
-- later on when we're not allowed to understand what it meant, it will be crystal clear for people designing the train. So I would write something up, regardless of what this committee does, I want it to be a policy inside of this railway anyway. >> Sounds good. And it sounds like we may be done., Except for the full committee report

-- >> Dennis, you have got two minutes. >> Present this and essentially make those changes that are in there and present this to the full committee as the report from our subcommittee. Anybody have a problem
-- and of course anybody that has any concerns about specific things is free to raise those in the committee meeting.

>> I think
-- this is Uwe -- this is looking pretty good so far, Dennis and it looks like a very good document to present to the committee. >> Anybody comes up with ideas and wants to add stuff, feel free to dothat at the presentation.

So is there anything else we need to do in the last minute or less? If not, I will see most of you in September I guess and I guess there is a another subcommittee meeting in between that. I can't remember. >> Yeah, I think it's
-- >> Yes. This is Marilyn. We have another board and a lighting meeting. >> Okay. Thank you all for your work and assistance and talk to some of you later and we'll see a lot of you at the committee meeting. >> Thank you, Dennis. >> Thank you, Dennis. >> Thank you, Dennis. >> Operator, this concludes our conference call. >> Thank you for your participation in today's conference. Your call has ended and you may now disconnect. Once again, we appreciate your participation in today's conference. You may now disconnect.