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S. HRG. 113–541 

FROM MILITARY SERVICE TO SMALL BUSINESS 

OWNERS: SUPPORTING AMERICA’S VETERAN 

ENTREPRENEURS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 4, 2014 

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington, Chair 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho, Ranking Member 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire 

KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts 

CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey 

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana 

MARCO RUBIO, Florida 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina 

DEB FISCHER, Nebraska 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

JANE CAMPBELL, Democratic Staff Director 

SKIFFINGTON HOLDERNESS, Republican Staff Director 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Chairwoman, and a U.S. Senator from Washington ...... 1 

Risch, Hon. James E., Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from Idaho ................. 3 

Pryor, Hon, Mark L., a U.S. Senator from Arkansas ........................................... 4 

Fischer, Hon. Deb, a U.S. Senator from Nebraska ............................................... 5 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne, a U.S. Senator from New Hampshire ............................ 5 

WITNESSES

Jeppson, Rhett, Associate Administrator, Office of Veterans Business Development, U.S. Small Business Administration, Washington, DC ......................... 6 

Duso, Julianna, Program Director, Veterans Business Outreach Center, SBA 

Region X, Seattle, WA ......................................................................................... 13 

Payton, Trena, President, ABN Technologies, Lacey, WA ................................... 19 

Multanen, Gary, Chief Executive Officer, Best Bath Systems, Inc., Caldwell, 

ID ........................................................................................................................... 25 

Proulx, Jr., Dan, Member Manager, Monument Construction, LLC, Nashua, 

NH ......................................................................................................................... 30 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Cantwell, Hon. Maria 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Questions for the record ................................................................................... 63 

Letter dated June 4, 2014, from Senators Burr and King, Jr. ..................... 72 

Duso, Julianna 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 13 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 15 

Fischer, Hon. Deb 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 5 

Questions for the record ................................................................................... 54 

Heitkamp, Hon. Heidi 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 50 

Questions for the record ................................................................................... 68 

Jeppson, Rhett 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 9 

Multanen, Gary 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 25 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 27 

Payton, Trena 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 19 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 21 

Pepperman, Scott 

Letter dated June 5, 2014, to Senators Cantwell and Risch ........................ 74 

Proulx, Jr., Dan 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 30 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 32 

Pryor, Hon, Mark L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Risch, Hon. James E. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 3 

Questions for the record ................................................................................... 57 
Page

IV 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 51 

Questions for the record ................................................................................... 60 

The Veterans Entrepreneurship Act (S.2143) ................................................ 77 
(1) 

FROM MILITARY SERVICE TO SMALL 

BUSINESS OWNERS: SUPPORTING AMERICA’S 

VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 4, 2014 

UNITED STATES SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:04 p.m., in Room 

428–A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Maria Cantwell, 

Chairwoman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Cantwell, Pryor, Cardin, Shaheen, Heitkamp, 

Risch, and Fischer. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, 

CHAIRWOMAN, AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. The Small Business Committee will 

come to order. 

Today, we are having a hearing on ‘‘Military Service to Small 

Business Ownership: Supporting America’s Veteran Entrepreneurs.’’ Good afternoon and welcome to all of the witnesses. We 

have a distinguished panel here today. I thank each of them for 

making the time to be here. 

I also want to thank my colleague, Senator Pryor, for his leadership on helping get this important hearing underway today and for 

proposing legislation to strengthen the SBA program for veterans. 

Our colleague, Senator Shaheen, I know, will be joining us, and she 

also has legislation that she is proposing. And, my colleague, the 

Ranking Member, I understand is on his way, so we will hear from 

him when he arrives. 

The men and women who serve our nation deserve the best opportunities and care when they return home. It is our solemn duty 

as the U.S. Government to meet those obligations to our veterans. 

And, there are significant problems, as we have all been hearing 

about, at the Veterans Administration, and that is why we need to 

immediately prioritize getting veterans access to health care they 

need, and at the same time, ensuring that the VA identifies the 

structural reforms that are important to helping our veterans in 

the long run so the situation does not occur again. 

Today’s hearing is about another issue facing our veterans. It is 

ensuring that they have economic opportunities when they come 

back from military service. Senator Risch and I want to see more 

veterans have a chance to become entrepreneurs, to open up busi-
2 

nesses and create jobs, giving veterans the training and tools and 

resources they need to start small businesses and ensure that they 

will be able to make ends meet. I say this because we know that 

75 percent of small businesses—that small businesses create 75 

percent of the job growth in America, and we think with veterans 

at the helm, they will also hire more veterans. They will be able 

to provide for themselves and their families and transition back to 

civilian life. 

I am particularly concerned about the amount of new veterans 

that we are seeing. There are 2.8 million veterans returning from 

Iraq and Afghanistan. With continued withdrawal of U.S. forces 

from Afghanistan, the population of returning veterans will increase, and by some estimates, we will have another million veterans over the next five years. 

Last year, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that the unemployment rate for post-9/11 veterans was nine percent, so that 

is compared to the national unemployment rate of 7.4 percent. So, 

while there has been some improvement this year in our economy, 

employment for new veterans remains a very, very serious issue. 

The Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, which represent 

these new veterans, indicate that employment opportunities is the 

top concern for its members. 

Today’s hearing is about what the Small Business Administration can do to help support small business ownership and entrepreneurial development for our nation’s veterans, particularly those 

returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. We need to give our veterans 

the chance to become creators. Supporting veteran entrepreneurs 

will be part of our tool kit to ensure that veterans have a successful 

transition to civilian life and make ends meet, and we want to 

make sure that we are helping them become the small business 

owners of the future. 

We have lots of great examples. In my State, Seattle-based 

VECA, which stands for Veterans Electrical Contractor Association, 

was founded by World War II veterans and has a long history of 

training veterans. Over the last ten years, the company has employed more than 300 veterans, and we had a very proud moment 

at that company a year and a half ago when I was able to take 

Senator Inouye there, and they were all so happy to be with him 

and to have their picture taken with a war hero. 

In 1971, Jim Lea, of Veterans of the United States Air Army 

Corps in World War II, which is now the U.S. Air Force, along with 

Neil Anderson and John Burroughs, started another company in 

Seattle called Cascade Designs to better provide mattresses and 

greater comfort for hiking and camping. So, a lot of people may 

know them or have slept on one of their air mattresses. But, over 

the last 40 years, this company has become a household name of 

innovation and continues to hire veterans, as well. 

Spokane-based Quantum Solutions provides building products 

from floor to ceiling, and Quantum is owned by Dale Storr, a 

former service member and prisoner of war who was shot down in 

an A–10 during Operation Desert Storm. He recently retired as a 

Lieutenant Colonel from the Washington Air National Guard. 

And, of course, we will have another witness here, Trena Payton, 

who started a technology company in Lacey, Washington. 
3 

The Small Business Administration has a number of programs 

that provide training and resources to our veterans to help them 

start these small businesses, and in fiscal year 2013, the SBA provided assistance to more than 144,000 veterans through the Small 

Business Development Centers, through the Women’s Business 

Centers, and through the service corps of retired executives called 

SCORE and the Veterans Business Outreach Centers. I want more 

veterans to have a chance of getting this important help through 

the SBA programs and I want to explore what we can do to make 

sure that we are raising the awareness so that veterans know that 

these programs exist in our country. 

Again, not every veteran will want to pursue these SBA programs or opportunities, but we want to make sure that they know 

about them, and I want to make sure SBA programs for those veterans are streamlined so that they are very easy to use once veterans do know about them. 

I am pleased that today the SBA will be announcing that they 

are running Public Service Announcements about these veteran entrepreneur programs on the Worldwide Armed Forces Network. 

This TV and radio network reaches our military bases. I also urge 

the SBA to reach out to television stations in military communities 

across the United States to encourage them to run these Public 

Service Announcements in hopes of getting the word out. You never 

know where the next great idea is going to come from, but we know 

that the talent of the men and women who serve our country is 

great and we know that they can add to the opportunities for economic development in our country. 

Senator Pryor introduced S. 2396, the Veteran Entrepreneur 

Training and Opportunities Act of 2014. The bill would expand the 

SBA’s existing entrepreneurial development initiative targeted to 

veterans and it would codify SBA programs like Boots to Business, 

and the Veterans Women Ignition and Spirit of Entrepreneurship, 

and the Entrepreneur Bootcamp for Veterans. And so I want to 

thank him for all of his leadership in trying to make the best of 

these programs, solid programs, in allowing us to really further 

communicate the opportunities that veterans have in seeking these 

programs. Having the specificity and the concrete nature of these 

programs in statute, I think, will help, so thank you for your leadership with that. 

So, now, I am going to turn it over to my colleague, Senator 

Risch, and ask him for an opening statement, and then any of our 

colleagues who would like to make a statement before we go to our 

witnesses. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES E. RISCH, RANKING 

MEMBER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO 

Senator RISCH. Madam Chairman, first of all, let me say, thank 

you for holding this timely meeting. 

Obviously, there are a lot of things going on right now as far as 

veterans are concerned and with the Veterans Administration and 

some of the shabby treatment that veterans are getting. I think it 

is really important that every American live out the commitment 

we have made. The veterans have given us their absolute best. We 

owe it to them to give them our absolute best. 
4 

As veterans come back and reintegrate into the free market and 

free enterprise system, they need help at times, and the VA, as we 

have seen, has fallen down on the job, badly in some instances. 

And here, we have an opportunity in a little different area, namely 

the area of reintegration, to actually do something about it. 

We have some programs that have started. They are somewhat 

small. They have been pilot programs. And we need to see what is 

working and what is not working. 

I have every confidence that through the SBA, we can do this a 

lot more efficiently and a lot better than has been done in some of 

the other Federal agencies, not the least of which is because we are 

smaller and we do give them substantially closer oversight through 

this committee. 

We have a great panel here of people who are going to address 

those issues. I have Gary Multanen here from Idaho. He is an 

Army veteran and serves on the Board of Directors of the Boise 

SBDC. I am anxious to hear his insight into these important 

issues. 

Madam Chairman, thank you very much. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Risch, 

and again, thank you for helping us get this hearing set and for 

your—— 

Senator RISCH. Madam Chairman, can I—one other thing. Senator Fischer has to leave at 3:30, and I know she has some input 

and some questions, so when we get to that, if I could yield my 

space to her, and anybody else—— 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Very gentlemanly of you. Very gentlemanly of you. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Senator Pryor, did you want to make a 

statement? 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK L. PRYOR, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS 

Senator PRYOR. Thank you, Madam Chair. I really want to thank 

you and Senator Risch for your leadership on this, and I want to 

thank our panelists. Many of you all are veterans and we appreciate your service and just appreciate what you are doing here 

today. 

Last November, in Arkansas, I was honored to host a Small 

Business Committee field hearing with a group of Arkansas veterans, and they shared their experiences and challenges that they 

face in starting and expanding their small businesses. And veterans, in my view, are natural entrepreneurs. They already have 

the skills, the experience, the leadership necessary to start a business and to create jobs. For those who want to pursue the path of 

entrepreneurship, we should be there to support them as they get 

their businesses off the ground. 

So, that is why I introduced the Veterans Entrepreneurship and 

Training Opportunities Act of 2014, or the VET Opportunities Act, 

as we call it. This legislation is cosponsored by Senator Landrieu, 

former Chairwoman of this committee, and is supported by the 

VFW, the American Legion, and the Association of the United 

States Navy. It is bipartisan legislation and it improves and ex-
5 

pands upon successful Small Business Administration programs to 

ensure that our transitioning service member and veteran entrepreneurs have the tools they need to start their businesses with a 

solid foundation. 

Ms. Payton, who is going to testify today, benefitted from one of 

these programs. The Veteran Women Igniting the Spirit of Entrepreneurship, also known as V–WISE, has a proven track record. 

During my time at the Arkansas field hearing, one witness described this program as ‘‘phenomenal.’’ EBV, a similar program to 

V–WISE, focuses on the unique challenges veterans with disabilities face. These two programs alone have over half of participants 

going on to start small businesses. They do this all while 

leveraging limited Federal dollars with substantial private support. 

So, again, Madam Chair, I want to thank you for doing this 

today, and all the panelists, I want to thank you for being here. 

Thank you. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Senator Fischer. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DEB FISCHER, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM NEBRASKA 

Senator FISCHER. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding the 

hearing, and Senator Risch, thank you for your letting me ask 

questions first. And I would like to thank the members of the panel 

for being here today. I look forward to hearing your testimony and 

getting to our questions. Thank you. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Senator Shaheen, would you like to 

make a statement before we go to the witnesses? And, I want to 

thank you for your leadership on this, as well. You have been great 

in giving us input on legislation that, hopefully, we will be acting 

on before the committee, and I know you represent a lot of veterans, so thank you. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE 

Senator SHAHEEN. Well, thank you very much, and thank you 

also to Ranking Member Risch and Chair Cantwell for holding this 

hearing. 

I really just want to take a minute and introduce the New 

Hampshire person who is here testifying on the panel, Dan Proulx. 

It is very nice to welcome you here, Dan. Dan is from a company 

called Monument Construction in Nashua, New Hampshire, and he 

is a Marine veteran who founded Monument in 2008. Dan and the 

employees at Monument provide complete construction services, including projects for Federal agencies, such as the VA, the Navy, the 

National Guard, and the Forestry Service. 

And, he has really grown the business in a very impressive way 

in a very short time, from its first full year in 2009, when they saw 

$290,000 in revenues, to this year, when they expect $12 million 

in revenue. This is the kind of small business growth that is very 

good for New Hampshire, that creates jobs, and good for the country. 

I know we are going to hear from Dan about the challenges and 

successes that he has faced, but I had the opportunity to visit the 
6 

business in Nashua back in January and it was very impressive to 

see not only what you have done in the business, Dan, but your 

commitment to hiring other veterans. So, thank you very much for 

being here, for all of your efforts, and we look forward to hearing 

what you have to say. And, thank you to all the panelists for being 

here. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you very much, Senator 

Shaheen. I know that your focus has been particularly on making 

sure that the financial fees that are paid by veterans in these programs do not preclude getting veterans to participate, so we are 

happy to discuss that with people. 

But, we are going to start and go right down the aisle, so, Mr. 

Jeppson, if you would start. Introduce yourself. Turn on your 

microphone, make sure the light is on, and, if you could, stick to 

five minutes and then we will let people ask questions after everyone has finished. But, thank you all very much for being here. 

STATEMENT OF RHETT JEPPSON, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF VETERANS BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, 

U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. JEPPSON. Chairwoman Cantwell and Ranking Member Risch 

and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify on SBA’s ongoing work to serve our veteran entrepreneurs across the country. We greatly appreciate this committee’s support to our SBA’s efforts to assist our nation’s heroes and 

job creators. 

As small business owners, veterans continue to serve our country 

by creating critical employment opportunities and driving economic 

growth. They possess the skills, discipline, and leadership to start 

and operate small businesses in our communities. In fact, veterans 

over-index in entrepreneurship and are 45 percent more likely than 

those with no active duty military experience to be self-employed. 

According to the most recent U.S. Census data, nearly one in ten 

small businesses are veteran owned. These businesses generate 

over $1.2 trillion annually in receipts and employ nearly 5.8 million 

Americans. 

With over 21 million veterans in America and more than 250,000 

service members transitioning from the military annually, SBA is 

focused on ensuring that they have the access to counseling, capital, contracting needed to start and grow successful businesses. In 

fiscal year 2013, SBA supported more than $1.1 billion in 7(a) and 

504 loans to more than 2,400 veteran-owned small businesses. 

In order to further expand access to capital for veterans, we also 

challenged the top 120 national and regional SBA lenders to increase their lending activity to veterans by five percent per year for 

the next five years. With this support from our lending partners, 

SBA will serve an additional 2,000 veterans and increase lending 

by an additional $475 million. 

Moreover, in January of 2014, we launched the Veterans Advantage, which reduced the up-front borrower fee to zero for qualified 

veteran-owned businesses receiving SBA Express loans up to 

$350,000. In the fiscal year 2015 budget request, we outlined a 

plan to continue this program and to reduce the fee by half for all 

7(a) loans over $350,000 to veterans. 
7 

We also connect veteran entrepreneurs with contracting opportunities across the Federal Government. I am very proud to report 

that, for the first time ever, we met the three percent governmentwide contracting goal for service disabled veteran-owned small 

businesses in fiscal year 2012. We helped these veterans access 

more than $12 billion in Federal prime contracts, and despite budget cuts, we expect good numbers on the fiscal year 2013 scorecard. 

In terms of training and counseling, in fiscal year 2013, our nationwide resource partner network of VBOCs, SBDCs, WBCs, and 

the volunteer SCORE mentors reached over 144,000 veterans in 

the U.S. In addition to these services, SBA also offers entrepreneur 

training, including Boots to Business, V–WISE, EBV for servicedisabled veterans, active duty service members, and their spouses. 

V–WISE and EBV are high-touch programs focused on the 

under-served communities. V–WISE helps women veterans, active 

duty servicewomen, and female spouses learn the business skills 

necessary to turn an idea or a start-up into a growth venture. As 

of next Friday, V–WISE will have trained over 1,300 women. 

EBV offers cutting-edge entrepreneurship training in small business management for post-9/11 veterans and active duty service 

members with service-connected disabilities. Through EBV, over a 

thousand veterans have been trained, and within six months of 

completing both EBV and V–WISE programs, there is a 56 percent 

start rate for new business ventures, and within three years, that 

rate increases to 72 percent. 

In January of 2013, SBA launched Boots for Business, the entrepreneurship track of the Department of Defense Transition Assistance Program. The curriculum provides valuable assistance to exploring self-employment opportunities by leading participants 

through the key steps of evaluating business concepts and the 

foundational knowledge required for developing a business plan. 

With the funding provided in the fiscal year 2014 budget, SBA 

plans to expand the Boots to Business program to more military installations within the U.S. and launch the program at bases around 

the world. 

Boots to Business just achieved a milestone of training 10,000 

transitioning service members in the last two-day Introduction to 

Entrepreneurship portion of the program. We project that we will 

train an additional 12,000 to 15,000 participants through Boots to 

Business in fiscal year 2014. 

As of this week, we began airing PSAs about Boots to Business 

on the military television channels, including the Armed Forces 

Network and the Pentagon Channel. I would like to show you two 

video clips of about 30 seconds each. 

The first is Tony Turin, an EBV graduate who is in the process 

of transitioning from the Army and will be starting an optometry 

clinic back in his home State of Oregon. 

[Pause.] 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Demos never work when you want them 

to, so it is okay. They will get it in a second. 

Mr. JEPPSON. I promise you, it is worth the wait. It really is 

good. And let me just—I mentioned Tony is the first—— 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. No, keep talking, and when they are 

ready, they will cue us. 
8 

Mr. JEPPSON. Okay. So, Tony is a Boots to Business graduate, 

optometrist, spent his time in the service, and had participated in 

one of our business plan competitions that we had recently and did 

very well. 

The second person that you will see is Sandra Gonzales. She is 

not only an Army veteran, was an Army nurse, but is also married 

to an active duty military member. She went through the Boots to 

Business program and started a business focused on providing 

home schooling to learning disabled children. She is the mother of 

six. She had a child with a learning disability and she had come 

up with some innovative ways of teaching her own child, and so 

she has turned that into a business idea and leveraged not only 

Boots to Business, but V–WISE, as well, so—— 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Okay. Now, we just need volume. 

[Pause.] 

Mr. JEPPSON. And, I will also mention, while we are waiting for 

the volume, that we produce these with a small amount of money. 

We only had to pay for the travel to the production studio. We 

partnered with the Defense Media Activity to produce these videos, 

so we did not spend any SBA money on these, other than—— 

[A video was played.] 

We really believe that, now, that this will help build awareness 

with the transitioning service members. We have reached 10,000 

with really no marketing at all to the service members or to build 

awareness, and so with this playing on those military channels, we 

believe that we will see our numbers really grow. 

[A video was played.] 

At SBA and across the administration, we are committed to helping our servicemen and women achieve the American dream that 

they fought so valiantly to defend. 

Thank you for this opportunity to testify and I look forward to 

answering your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jeppson follows:] 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

So, Ms. Duso, again, welcome from Seattle. Thank you very much 

for being here. 

STATEMENT OF JULIANNA DUSO, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, VETERANS BUSINESS OUTREACH CENTER, SBA REGION X, SEATTLE, WA 

Ms. DUSO. Chairwoman Cantwell, from my great State of Washington, and Ranking Member Risch and distinguished members of 

the committee, thank you for allowing me to be here today. 

I want to talk to you about my job. I have a great job. I am the 

Director of the Region X Veterans Business Outreach Center. I 

have the great honor of serving our country’s heroes and families. 

Our center serves four States, Washington, Oregon, Alaska, and 

Idaho, and seven active military bases. We provide technical business assistance and training to veteran entrepreneurs and business 

owners as well as other members of the military community. 

I could talk to you today about the facts. I could tell you that our 

small team of two has provided over 3,200 hours of free individualized business assistance to over 1,600 veterans since its opening in 

2010. I could tell you how we have provided training for over 1,000 

individuals, ranging in topics from general management, entrepreneurial skills, financial planning, marketing, sales, and government contracting. I could tell you that our clients have started over 

50 businesses, received $45 million in contracting, generated $19 

million in revenue, provided 1,500 jobs throughout our four-State 

region. 

All of these facts are important. However, I would rather tell you 

about the cornerstone of what I do, the people I serve and the companies they built. 

I would like to talk to you about Rich. Rich is an eight-year veteran of the Air Force and Air Force Reserves. Rich and his brother 

were seasoned professionals in the construction industry when it 

saw a drastic slow-down in activity in 2007. In 2011, Rich and his 

brother came to us with a dream of starting a new business in an 

area they were both passionate, craft beer. We worked with them 

to develop a business plan, create a marketing plan, and develop 

a strong financial road map. 

They invested every nickel they had and used the assistance 

from an SBA 7(a) loan to open Triplehorn Brewing Company. They 

finished 2013 with $700,000 in gross sales, created ten new jobs, 

and are one of the fastest growing breweries in the State. Rich has 

utilized the skills he learned during his service, such as organization, goal setting, problem solving, confidence, and resolve, to successfully grow his business. It should also be noted that Rich and 

his brother are second-generation small business owners. Their father was the recipient of a small business loan, himself. 

I would also like to talk to you about Sam, a decorated Army veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Sam’s company, Strideline Spokane, imports and sells a popular line of socks sporting the skyline 

of his hometown, Spokane, Washington. In their first year of operation, Strideline Spokane generated $110,000 in revenue and secured contracts in 41 different retail stores in Washington and 

Idaho, projected to increase sales by $56,000 in the next six 
14 

months. Strideline Spokane employs a team that includes a graphic 

designer, sales associate, and events staff. Sam has the rights to 

the designs for Denver, Salt Lake City, and Boise, where he plans 

to expand his business. 

I would like to end by telling you about Janell. Janell has served 

her country for over 20 years, including deployment in Afghanistan 

and current service in Washington Army National Guard’s 81st 

Brigade, Special Troops Battalion. We partnered with Janell as she 

completed her business plan, conducted market research, and 

learned how to properly budget and utilize her resources. In November of that same year, she opened Janell’s Gluten Free Market 

in her hometown of Everett, Washington. 

Last year, Janell’s store recognized over $561,000 in top-line 

sales. She has five full-time employees and plans to double her 

staff in the next year. She also participated in the V–WISE program, where she began planning for a second location. Janell’s Gluten Free Market successfully launched its second store in Kirkland, 

Washington, three years after opening her first location, and we 

are currently working with her on the feasibility of a third location. 

Janell’s service to her community did not end in the Army or National Guard. She has designed her business to serve as a resource 

to the celiac community and brings in doctors and other guest 

speakers to assist customers in finding resources for their ailments. 

Janell advocates for all veteran entrepreneurs to take advantage of 

SBA’s resources. She emphasizes the value of classes offered at 

SBA and the VBOC, which guided her business decisions and 

helped her develop a well-grounded business plan. 

These are just a few of the extraordinary individuals I have the 

honor of working with. I have learned through working with them 

that veterans possess skills that make them uniquely prepared to 

be savvy business owners. During their service, they learn how to 

solve problems, work calmly under pressure, effectively utilize resources, and work tirelessly to achieve their goals. The veteran and 

military community is diverse and with a unique set of challenges. 

With your continued support and investment, we will not only sustain the work we are doing, but grow the breadth and reach of our 

assistance. 

Thank you for allowing me to share these stories with you and 

taking your time to listen to me. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Duso follows:] 
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Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you very much. Thank you for 

being here, and we look forward to asking you some questions 

about that, too, both the data and the stories. 

So, Ms. Payton, welcome. Thank you very much for being here. 

STATEMENT OF TRENA PAYTON, PRESIDENT, ABN 

TECHNOLOGIES, LACEY, WA 

Ms. PAYTON. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Cantwell, Ranking Member Risch, and members of the committee. Thank you for 

inviting me to testify today. 

My name is Trena Payton and I am President of ABN Technologies, located in Lacey, Washington. I am also a member of 

Women Impacting Public Policy, WIPP, Women’s Presidents Organization, WPO, and the Washington State Women’s Veterans Advisory Committee. 

ABN Technologies is a veteran, women, and minority-owned company that I founded in 2003. We provide clients with IT solutions 

in three core areas: Operational support, hardware and software 

procurement, and professional services. Today, ABN employs 12 

employees, and in fiscal year 2013, we had revenues of $8.1 million. 

But, I would not be where I am today without the skills I learned 

in V–WISE and the SBA’s Express Loan program. As the committee considers veteran entrepreneurship programs and how to 

enhance opportunities for our nation’s veterans, I want to discuss 

my experience with some of the SBA programs available to entrepreneurs. 

Like many young people, I joined the Army to serve my country. 

The time I spent in the military opened up a new world to a young 

19-year-old from the projects of Los Angeles. My experiences widened the possibilities of what life could hold beyond anything imaginable to me at the time. Once my enlistment was completed, I 

worked for organizations like the U.S. Army, Nordstrom, and 

Washington Mutual, until I came to a crossroad that led me to consider opening my own business. 

Like most people, I had no idea where to start or where to turn 

to to get information. Luckily for me, a few blocks from my Washington Mutual office in downtown Seattle was the local SBA office. 

I began daily visits to the office during lunch breaks, because each 

time I went, more and more questions were answered and I generated more and more questions. The SBA is a great resource for 

information. 

Well, I took the leap, and in the span of six months, I started 

my business out of my second bedroom, quit my job, and was living 

on my savings—which I do not recommend. 

[Laughter.] 

When I started my business, I made good and bad decisions, like 

most start-up businesses. However, most of the bad decisions I 

made were due, in part, to the piecemeal information that entrepreneurs get coupled with that soldiers’ enthusiasm to get things 

done. I did not know what I did not know. 

It took over a year to land my first contract. From there, I had 

enough success to sustain myself and grow the business, but without consistent, repeatable results. Frustrated with my progress, in 
20 

2011, I saw an announcement for the V–WISE conference that was 

targeted for veteran women. It delivered an intensive immersion 

into entrepreneurship and a chance to be part of an ongoing educational experience and networking opportunities with industry experts. 

The other critical piece of growing my business was the line of 

credit I obtained through the SBA’s Express Loan program. As the 

committee knows, bidding on a project and then attempting to secure financing is a painstaking process. The line of credit that we 

have through the SBA’s Express Loan program means that we can 

bid on opportunities, knowing that we have the backing when we 

win. 

The Veterans Entrepreneurship Act, Senator Shaheen’s legislation to make this fee waiver permanent, is an excellent idea, one 

that many veterans like me will embrace. 

In addition, the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Training Opportunities Act of 2014, Senator Pryor’s legislation to make permanent 

several veteran entrepreneurship programs, such as V–WISE, 

Boots to Business, and to double the number of Veterans Business 

Outreach Centers from 15 to 30 over the next five years, would be 

very helpful to veteran entrepreneurs. 

I personally know that many veterans consider starting and owning a business at some point in their career transition, and having 

resources there to make the connection for them would be a critical 

component to their decision making process. 

As my story reflects, Federal programs for veterans have been 

critical to my company’s success. Small business programs, especially contracting programs, have leveled the playing field, allowing 

veteran entrepreneurs to thrive. 

As the head of a woman-owned business, I can tell you that access to the Federal marketplace is a huge issue. That is why I have 

been a strong supporter of the Women-Owned Small Business Federal Contracting Program. Removing the award caps for the WOSB 

program in 2013, which this committee supported, was a great improvement. The Senate will have the opportunity to improve it further by adding sole source authority to the program. This change 

would help millions of women break through barriers of accessing 

Federal contracts, if enacted. The House version of the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act contains this change. 

I implore the committee to continue funding V–WISE and the 

other SBA veteran entrepreneurship programs for all those people 

like me who are just starting, in a growth plateau, or are being 

challenged by business issues. 

Thank you, and I look forward to answering any questions you 

may have. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Payton follows:] 
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Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms. 

Payton. Thank you for being here. 

Mr. Multanen—is that the right pronunciation? 

Mr. MULTANEN. Madam Chairwoman, if you are Scandinavian, 

you say ‘‘Molt’-a-nan.’’ If you are not Scandinavian, you say ‘‘Multan’-en.’’ So, it works. My wife says ‘‘Mul-tan’-en.’’ 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Ya, sure. 

[Laughter.] 

Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF GARY MULTANEN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE 

OFFICER, BEST BATH SYSTEMS, INC., CALDWELL, ID 

Mr. MULTANEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, Ranking Member Risch, and Senators. I have submitted a document for the 

record that talks about six businesses in Idaho, and so I think I 

will spend a couple minutes here not reading that but responding 

to what I have already heard. 

I believe it is really important that veterans have skin in the 

game when they choose to start a business. There has to be a 

mechanism to where they need to bring some capital to the program. 

Running a business is hard, every day, and most days, it is harder. Once you reach a level of success, those challenges change. So, 

I am on my third SBA loan. I got my first one in 1981 to buy the 

business, to buy out my two partners, and I am now on my third 

loan. And so my personal goals today are significantly different 

than they were when I first started out. I am concerned about how 

do we keep a family business in the family and not have to sell to 

a third party so the old guy can have some money to retire on. And 

so I would like to make sure the SBA loan packages allow for legacy transition of businesses. 

The other issue that I have had the opportunity to be involved 

in twice is to repay a loan early. It is really irritating to have to 

pay a penalty to prepay the loan early. The whole idea of the loan 

is to help someone become successful in their business. So, my comment would be, do not penalize them if they want to repay the loan 

early. Let them repay the loan and move on. 

In Idaho, we have—the program in Idaho works and works well, 

and that is because SBDC does a great job and they partner with 

SCORE, and the Boots to Business program is led by SCORE in 

Idaho. I do not know if that is the case around the country. 

For the last three years, SBDC has averaged 150 veteran consultations each year, and they total about 11.5 hours per veteran. 

Of that, 45 percent are looking to start a new business and 55 percent are already in an existing business and looking for guidance 

and help, and probably loans, to continue to grow their business. 

What is frustrating from my—and I have served on the SBDC 

Advisory Board for 20 years, or right at 20 years—what is frustrating to me is that only six percent of the people who are engaged 

and involved in the program have true sustaining programs where 

they intend to grow their business year after year after year. That 

is where I think some effort needs to be spent, is how do you—it 

is okay if you want a lifestyle loan, a lifestyle business and all you 

want to do is take care of yourself and two or three people. But, 
26 

the goal here is to employ veterans, and so we need to have more 

veteran businesses that are really focused on growing and have a 

business plan that allows sustainable growth. 

Madam Chairman, those are my comments for now. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Multanen follows:] 
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Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you very much. Again, thank you 

for being here. 

And, certainly not least in this, but last, we will have Mr. Proulx. 

Thank you very much for being here. 

STATEMENT OF DAN PROULX, JR., MEMBER MANAGER, 

MONUMENT CONSTRUCTION, LLC, NASHUA, NH 

Mr. PROULX. Thank you, Chair Cantwell, Ranking Member 

Risch, and Senator Shaheen and members of the Small Business 

Committee. Thank you for the opportunity for me to testify today. 

My name is Dan Proulx and I am a managing member of Monument Construction out of Nashua, New Hampshire. I speak to you 

today as a proud Marine veteran who, following my discharge in 

1994, experienced the same types of challenges finding quality 

post-service employment being faced by many veterans today. 

I explored several paths in those years, some more promising 

than others, fortunately culminating with earning a Master Electrician’s License followed by a General Contractor’s License. Today, 

the construction firm I founded in 2008, along with three employees, Monument Construction, directly employs up to 44 professionals seasonally, in addition to providing many more quality jobs 

for our subcontractors. 

Monument Construction is a verified service-disabled veteranowned and certified HUBZone small business delivering complete 

construction services, including new construction and renovation, 

plus full-service electrical, mechanical, plumbing, carpentry, site 

work, concrete, and project management. Our work includes over 

70 Federal projects on both design-build and bid-build, and frequently with a focus on environmental sustainability components. 

Monument Construction in 2012 celebrated delivery of our largest project to date, the $6.5 million Psychiatric and Poly Trauma 

Facility at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in White River 

Junction, Vermont, and was also awarded our largest project to 

date, a $7.8 million exterior renovation at the Department of Veterans Affairs in Jamaica Plain in Massachusetts. While some found 

Monument’s initial growth predictions wildly optimistic in 2008, 

with support from our team, quality subcontractors, customers, 

agencies such as the New Hampshire PTAP, and the Small Business Administration, Monument exceeded those initial goals. 

At the beginning, Monument Construction’s first project was a 

small one with the Department of Veterans Affairs in Togus, 

Maine. With no past performance, we constantly pestered many of 

New England’s Federal contracting offices until one took a leap of 

faith to give us a chance to succeed with a $22,000 ventilation 

project. 

Our success would not have been possible without the help of the 

PTAP and SBA. In fact, we would not have gotten off the ground 

without their expert advice of their advisors or without their finance programs. Our PTAP and SBA consultants guided us 

through the thicket of acronyms, paperwork, and registrations that 

enabled us to appear on contracting officers’ radar in the first 

place, such as obtaining a CAGE code, registering for ORCA, and 

signing up for a DUNS number. 
31 

In 2009, the SBA contacted us with a bank familiar with the Patriot Express Loan program, which from then until now has provided us liquidity to grow, and our Patriot Express Loans have 

grown with us. At the start, without any past performance to demonstrate, with no track record, obtaining conventional financing 

was an impossibility, as you can imagine. I believe Senator 

Shaheen’s Veterans Entrepreneur Act, which, among other things, 

makes the SBA loan fee waiver fees permanent, deserves speedy 

passage. 

Our next major step forward came in 2009, when the Department of Veterans Affairs in New England awarded us a coveted 

spot on a five-year multi-award construction contract known as a 

MATOC. This MATOC award boosted us in two ways. First, we 

were awarded five of the MATOC’s initial seed projects, providing 

critical cash flow for a new business. Second, and more importantly 

for the long term, receiving the MATOC Award let other contracting officers know that Monument Construction had passed an 

unusually rigorous vetting. Since that initial MATOC award, 

Monument has been awarded an additional 14 MATOCs, from Albuquerque to Maine. 

That year, in 2009, our first full year in business, we saw about $290,000 in revenue. This year, Monument Construction anticipates $12 million in revenue. 

This year, we saw another milestone for our firm when we completed renovations to our building. Once again, the SBA played a 

role, supporting our renovation with a 504 loan. Finally, even as 

I testify here, we are finalizing on an SBA CAPline 7(a) loan to fuel 

our ongoing growth. 

I am happy to testify today in the spirit of sharing our road to 

success in the hope that some of what worked for us will help other 

veteran entrepreneurs to succeed. 

In addition to my own post-service employment challenges, I 

have witnessed other veterans encountering difficulty in jumpstarting their post-service careers while serving on the Board of Directors of Harbor Homes, a New Hampshire Veterans Housing Organization. In addition to employing veterans and veteran-owned 

subcontractors when possible, my door has always been open to 

mentor local veterans to encourage them on to the road to success. 

We subcontracted to another service-disabled veteran-owned construction firm, technically a competitor, when they encountered a 

temporary problem with their CVE certification. The reason behind 

this was so that they could continue to run their business until the 

issue was corrected, because I believe veterans should help each 

other out. 

All of us at Monument Construction are grateful for the programs that helped us succeed, from SBA and PTAP, veterans’ only 

contracting set-asides, to the Veterans Affairs CVE process that 

has streamlined an easier certification process for legitimate veteran and service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. We fully 

support your efforts to enhance and strengthen these programs so 

that other veterans may also find success. 

I thank you today for focusing on a most important issue and 

hope to assist your work wherever possible. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Proulx follows:] 
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Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. And, thank you to all the 

witnesses. We so appreciate you being here and the testimony and 

experience you bring. 

I want to start with a round of questions, and we will just go in 

order here, but I wanted to start with you, Ms. Duso, since you had 

seen so many people. And my question is on the kinds of veterans’ 

consultations you are seeing in the Northwest. Is this people who 

come with specific expertise that are a part of their military experience that they want to try to capitalize on, or are you seeing people 

who have a variety of ideas and really want the entrepreneurial 

and access to capital issues and information about that? 

Ms. DUSO. Yes, I am happy to answer your question. So, a majority of the clients that we do see fall into the second category that 

you mentioned. I get a lot of e-mails and phone calls with veterans 

and a lot of them are post-9/11 veterans and they just say, ‘‘I want 

to start a business and I really do not know what to do.’’ So, it goes 

anywhere from walking them through, here is how you get a license, what kind of business entity is going to be a best fit for you, 

let us talk about how much money you need to make to be financially secure in your own self and for your own family and to be 

sustainable for your business, and then how much is it going to 

cost you to run a business, you know, what do all those numbers 

look like, and do those things line up together. And, that is really 

where we go. I would say that is probably 80 percent or more. I 

have not done any kind of analysis on that. But, a majority of my 

phone calls are that. 

And then we do see some that come to us that have businesses 

that are looking to expand, so they want—they need capital for expansion purposes, capital for start-up purposes, and then they do 

have some kind of expertise. I have one guy that was in the military and now he is working at Amazon and he does robotics, so he 

wants some robotics contracting and things like that. 

So, you know, it is a variety, but I would say most of ours fall 

into that second category. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. And primarily the technical and the 

help and support first and foremost, as opposed to access to capital? 

Ms. DUSO. Oh, yes. So, I mean, the most important thing for us 

is to make sure that an idea is feasible for somebody, to help them 

write a good business plan, and to get a good financial road map, 

because I do not want to help somebody start a business that is 

just going to leave them three years later, four years later, with a 

lot of debt and in a worse situation than they were to start with. 

It takes a lot of time and energy to start a business, so I want to 

make sure that they are started off—that they are starting off on 

the right foot and that they have a real idea that can be successful 

and successful for the life that they need or that their family needs. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. And, you mentioned one of the veterans 

going into the brewing business and having one of the fastest growing breweries. What was that about, because, obviously, we have 

a lot of Northwest breweries in general. 

Ms. DUSO. Yes. 
37 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. So, to claim that you have one of the 

fastest growing means they are doing something right. What do 

you think was the success there? 

Ms. DUSO. I think it was a few things. They produce a really 

high-quality product. Rich’s brother is—he has informally been 

called, like, the Brewing Savant. They have won some awards 

for—— 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. What is the name of the company? 

Ms. DUSO. Triplehorn. So, they are Triplehorn. They are in 

Woodinville. Tom Douglas wanted them in a lot of his restaurants, 

and so they are talking about maybe partnering with the Seahawks 

next year. So, I think it is a combination of they have a really highquality product. They work really hard. Rich is a perfectionist, and 

so is his brother, and so they do not want to put out a product that 

is low quality. And, they have done a lot of networking in the craft 

brewery world. I think the latest statistics say Oregon has the 

number one number of craft breweries and Washington has the 

number two, so it is a really competitive field. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. And so their background in the military 

probably gave them that ability to be very drilled down on the 

specificity that is required in brewing. 

Ms. DUSO. Yes. I mean, and that is what Rich talks about all the 

time, you know, that his relentless pursuit of the best product possible is part of what has made him so successful, and their organization, as well, you know, just staying organized in their back office. Everything they did from the beginning of setting their back 

office up to be sustainably successful is pretty phenomenal. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Great. Thank you. We will have more 

questions, but I want to give my colleagues a chance. 

Senator Risch. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

First of all, Senator Fischer indicated she did have some questions, but she will submit them for the record, so thank you very 

much. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Great. Thank you. 

Senator RISCH. Gary, it was interesting to hear you note the difference that businesses face and the challenges as they start versus 

the challenges as they become successful, particularly when it 

comes to transitioning to the next generation or what have you. My 

observation, and I would like your thoughts on this, is the SBA 

plays, I think, a very legitimate role as businesses get going, but 

usually by the time they get to the point where they are successful 

and they have the questions of legacy and moving to the next generation, usually, the businesses have gone into the private sector 

and found what they need, whether it be legal help or accountant 

help or what have you. Is that a fair assessment of what happens 

as a business matures? 

Mr. MULTANEN. Senator Risch, that is a fair assessment, and we 

are there as a company and a family. We will accomplish the transition to the next generation. 

Senator RISCH. By the way, I know your next generation and I 

believe that to be the fact. 

Mr. MULTANEN. Well, I have two adult children who are both 

very smart and very good and work hard. 
38 

Senator RISCH. And good lobbyists, too. 

Mr. MULTANEN. And good—correct. But, another option through 

SBA would just make it better. Here is what—here is the big—the 

most trouble comes from this approach. You have a successful business, and if you are really successful in what you do, there are lots 

of people that want to buy you. Most of them are those who are 

managing large buy-out funds. They want to buy you. They want 

to strip everything out of the business but the profits and then flip 

it in four or five or six years. Well, that totally removes the next 

generation from any successful path. Some of those buyout firms 

will let the next generation own three or four or five percent, but 

that is not owning the business. 

But, the first generation, or the second generation wanting to 

transfer to the third, you know, after you have spent 47 years making a business successful, it would be nice to have the rewards 

from doing that. And so if the assets are there in the company, 

then the second generation, or the third generation, needs to carry 

the fiduciary responsibility of becoming owners of that business. 

And so I am just looking for another option besides the ones that 

are available through the private market. 

Senator RISCH. Interesting observation. 

Ms. Duso and Mr. Jeppson, I appreciate your testimony, and it 

is always great to hear those success stories, but I would like to 

see some metrics on this, something that—I mean, we all know 

they are not all successes. There are failures in there, and then 

there is the middle of the road that probably did move forward 

somewhat well, but maybe did not set the world on fire. What can 

you tell me about the metrics available for these programs that you 

have talked about, starting with Mr. Jeppson, please. 

Mr. JEPPSON. Yes, sir. Happy to. So, let me just break down a 

couple of the programs and the metrics. So, on our lower-touch programs, like EBV and V–WISE, we have some pretty good metrics 

because they have been around about three years. So, we look at 

the start rate in the first year. It is well over 50 percent. And then 

the start rate is over 70 percent at year three. 

When we look at the employment that they have produced, we 

only have that on EBV, not V–WISE yet, but on EBV, it is about 

one employee for every new start. So, a thousand new businesses 

started, a thousand jobs created, and that is still pretty good. When 

we consider that 80 percent of small business is self-employment 

and that it is only the other 20 percent that employs one or more 

employee, I think that that is a pretty good range of where we are 

going as veteran small business owners. 

With EBV, or, excuse me, with Boots to Business, we are still 

within that first year window, so all we are measuring right now 

is the throughput through the program. The way the transition assistance has been redesigned is that you actually go through transition assistance a year before you leave the service, ideally, and you 

receive educational benefit training. You receive training on getting 

a job from the Department of Labor. VA is there to give benefits 

briefings, et cetera. 

But, the optional track that we have, the Boots to Business, we 

still are within that first year window. We have just reached the 
39 

10,000th person to go—service member to go through the two-day 

training. Then they can opt into that eight-week online training. 

So, we are watching what the cohort looks like, and I can tell you 

about what the demographic of that looks like, but it will be sometime next year. With the $7 million in the budget that we have 

next year, we reserved a portion of that to be able to put in a mechanism so that we can actually provide to you what the new starts 

are, what the failure rate, and we can do that measurable. And, we 

will do it at the one-year mark, we will do it at the three-year 

mark for the service member, and then we will look at the mortality rate at the five-year mark on that. But, we are still a little 

bit ahead of ourselves on that piece. 

Senator RISCH. Very helpful, Mr. Jeppson. It is unfortunate every 

Federal program did not have those kind of metrics. 

Ms. Duso, what can you add to the conversation here? 

Ms. DUSO. I can tell you—very similar to what Mr. Jeppson has 

said. So, the Boots to Business program—the VBOC program just 

started in 2010. Our office itself just opened in September of 2010 

itself. We do not, right now, we do not track any kind of mortality 

rate or anything like that. What we do track is most of the numbers I gave you. How many new starts do we have? How many employees? You know, are they hiring? We do our best to get updated 

information from our clients, but it is not always as easy to get 

some of those updates from them. And, you know, we do our best 

to keep in touch with them, but it does not always happen. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you. My time is up. Thank you, Madam 

Chairman. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you very much. 

Dan, one of the things you talked about is some of the challenges 

that you had as you started, and access to credit being one of those. 

Can you talk a little bit more about what you think would be helpful to ensure that start-up businesses can get access to credit. 

Mr. PROULX. Yes. I think a lot of the access to credit, as far as 

in the construction side of things, it is a little tougher, because we 

are more like a management company. But, when you are talking 

to the SBA and then the banks, I think it would be a little bit more 

advantageous for a bank to actually—it seems that they come up 

short a little bit with the SBA program. They do not know the SBA 

program. They do not do a lot of SBA loans, so even though the 

percentage that you are guaranteed, whether it is 75, 85 percent, 

the banks still are not—they are not looking to really give you the 

lending because they are not familiar with the program. So, I think 

a little bit of education on the bank’s part to try to educate themselves more with the SBA program and how the programs work. 

I mean, like I said, with the construction side of things, it is a 

little bit tougher to access capital. When you are bonding projects 

or anything like that, the bonding company wants to see lines of 

credit in place, and unfortunately, I mean, Gary here said that you 

have skin in the game, which I believe is correct. But, on some of 

these other things that you are actually trying to do with the construction side, it is not as easy as it sounds, because that is where 

the challenges are with us as far as lending. 
40 

Senator SHAHEEN. Well, and one of the things that is in the legislation that we just proposed would make permanent the fee waivers for SBA loans to veterans. 

But, Mr. Jeppson, can you talk a little bit about the kinds of 

things that you are doing to work with banks to address the credit 

piece? 

Mr. JEPPSON. Yes, ma’am. If I could talk about the fee waivers 

just quickly. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Sure. 

Mr. JEPPSON. So, if you look at 2011, which is our biggest lending year ever to veterans, we did about $118 million in the Patriot Express Loan, which had a higher fee, which we do not have anymore. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Right. 

Mr. JEPPSON. And then we had—we did—out of the $1.2 billion 

that we did, we saw a lot of veterans go to the lower-fee loan. So, 

we believe that the fee will be a reduction, because that is a cash 

benefit up front. So, we support that. 

And, as I mentioned in my testimony, in the 2015 budget, we 

have asked for a continuation of that, the same as in your bill, and 

then to reduce that fee on 7(a) loans to half above 350. That is a 

real tangible dollar savings up front that the veterans sees. So, we 

believe that that will have an impact. 

We continue to look at ways to improve the lending program for 

them, and we are really trying to dig into what are the biggest 

lending challenges facing veterans right now. We know anecdotally 

that credit score affects and challenges some of our veterans, as 

well as equity. You are not making a lot of money in the service. 

I have got a daughter who is in the Marine Corps, and I will tell 

you that with her $1,400 a month in pay, she is not building a big 

nest egg to invest in a start-up. 

So, those two things, credit, in some cases with the deployment 

schedules, it is hard for a service member to take a ding. But, that 

equity piece remain challenges. 

What we are also looking at is working with the traditional lenders to encourage them to reach out to the veterans’ community to 

see where they can increase their lending. But, we have also started with my deputy to focus on the use of the nontraditional lending, if you will, through the Community Development Corporations 

and through the micro lending community, as well. 

I would mention, just briefly, that I recently attended a Vet Cap, 

which is a new program offered in partnership with Vets in Tech, 

where we are actually running panels across the nation where we 

will be bringing venture capital together along with angel investors, traditional lending, and SBA to focus on that and to actually 

talk to the veterans’ communities where they can bring their business ideas. So, it is very exciting. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Good. You know, this a question that came 

really from New Hampshire, because what we have seen is that 

Boots to Business has really been limited in New Hampshire, and 

either you or Ms. Duso may want to answer this. But, can the 

kinds of initiatives that we have talked about to try and support 

veteran-owned businesses, can those services not be made available 

through existing programs? Like, is there an impediment to vet-
41 

erans to going to the SBDCs, for example, to get the same kinds 

of services that the Boots to Business provides? And, why are we 

setting up another program that may duplicate services that already exist for people? 

Mr. JEPPSON. Yes, ma’am. If I could just answer that, and then 

I will let Ms. Duso fill in the details. Boots to Business is the actual transition program where we actually go on base and offer 

that for the transitioning service members. And so it is actually 

taught by the resource partners. There is about 20 percent of the 

courses are actually taught by members of the District Office, but 

the rest of the courses are taught by the SBDCs, the WBCs, and 

the people local to the base. So, this is focused on the transitioning 

members. 

One of the single most important things we do is we teach them 

how to do a feasibility analysis and then help them write a business plan. But, key to all of that is that we introduced them to the 

resource partner network, because when they transition out of the 

service at the end of that year, they are going to go home to their 

locale and then they will look for those resource partners. They will 

engage the SBDC. 

And, I will tell you that, from personal experience, when I left 

the service the first time to go home and run a family business, I 

wish I would have known that there was an SBDC and a VBOC 

45 minutes away. It would have kept me from making a few of 

those mistakes. 

So, I think it really enhances the existing programs and gets our 

service members an earlier introduction and helps set them off on 

the right footstep. 

Ms. DUSO. And, you know, I think for me, from the VBOC perspective, there are a few things that I love about the program. 

First, I think it adds a lot of credibility to the military community 

that we are a veteran outreach organization and that that is our 

number one priority, as opposed to everybody. But, a veteran business owner faces all the same challenges that all other small business owners do, but they also face challenges that other small business owners do not face. And so we understand those challenges. 

We speak the language of a lot of the veteran business owners. 

And, we are experts in the benefits and advantages of being specifically a veteran-owned business. And so I think that that is where 

the advantages of the VBOC come in versus SBDC or WBC. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you. My time is up. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Senator Heitkamp. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thank you so much, to both you and the 

Ranking Member. 

I love this subject matter because it combines a couple of things 

that are critically important, which is welcoming home our veterans and giving them an opportunity, but also building American 

businesses. And so I am really excited about what you do and love 

hearing, Mr. Jeppson, about that you are not just looking at SBA, 

you are advising on angel funds, on Kickstarter, on the other kinds 

of alternative mechanisms, and there was one I wanted to talk to 

you about, but I do not remember the name of it, where you actually have a sponsor that brings you to the dance, so to speak, to 
42 

the Web site and really—I just heard about this program from an 

SBA roundtable I just did in Dickinson, North Dakota. 

But, I want to touch on kind of two issues that are unique to 

those of us who have a lot of Indian Country in our territory. You 

know, Native Americans serve at a record number, and when they 

come home, there frequently is not a job back where they live, 

where their family lives in Indian Country. Capitalization of businesses in Indian Country is always very, very difficult, and making 

those transitions. And so I am wondering if you, in conjunction 

with the Native American portion of the VA, have collaborated on 

how we can build out more small businesses in Indian Country, for 

veterans in Indian Country. 

Mr. JEPPSON. So, a great question, and it is one area that we 

have just turned our focus to. As we look at how we can expand 

entrepreneurial education to the 21 million veterans that exist, you 

know, we have this great program of Boots to Business for veterans 

who transition. We are looking into how we leverage this type of 

capability to those veterans through our resource partner network. 

We have started discussions not only with White House Native 

American Affairs, but also with our Office of Native American Affairs here, and we will be running a pilot on that in August of this 

year. So, we are in the formative stages of focusing on that underserved community. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Well, it would be absolutely critical, I think. 

Probably in North Dakota, about ten to 15 percent of all the residents and Tribal members who live in Indian Country are, in fact, 

veterans. And frequently, they are under-served with veterans’ 

services because of the remoteness or because there is not something that recognizes they are in a unique situation. 

My second question is, expanding on your capacity beyond just 

what SBA can do, and you guys do a great job trying to bring in 

all the partners, I am wondering if you found any State that has 

approached you or that you have approached to build out a greater 

development of this capability by working within State organizations, either Veterans Service Organizations or looking at one-stop 

shopping and various kind of State capacities. 

Mr. JEPPSON. We have, and let me give three specific examples, 

and I will be quick. So, if you look at Montana, right now, one of 

our VBOCs is actually on a Reservation with a Veterans Service 

Organization, Rocky Boy Veterans Service Organization. 

If you look at the State of New Mexico, we have a VBOC that 

is actually hosted by the State Department of Veterans Affairs 

there, where they receive a lot of in-kind support and they leverage 

a lot of the State resources in their VBOC there. 

And then, thirdly, if you look at Illinois with Secretary Borggren 

[sic] and her team there, they have taken a lot of proactive initiatives, and they shared best practices with us and us with them on 

providing entrepreneurial education and training at the State level, 

using State funding. So, we partner and share best practices with 

them, and where appropriate, we use grant relationships to 

strengthen them. 

I would mention, if I could just briefly, as well, that if you look 

at EBV and V–WISE, those are both done as public-private partnerships. You know, if you take an example for V–WISE, we have 
43 

almost a one-to-one match out of the private sector from great companies to V–WISE. By using that public-private partnership, we 

are actually able to really execute at a much higher level than we 

could ever with public funding alone. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Well, and just to put a fine point on it, North 

Dakota is blessed because we have something called the StateOwned Bank and a huge commitment to veterans, and I think 

there would be some great collaboration at the State Bank, looking 

at kind of building out capacity. And, I think, Jeanne made a great 

point, which is we have got all of these kinds of services out there. 

How do we utilize what we have? It sounds like you are already 

doing that. But, I certainly hope that you are looking at what are 

the State-based services, the State-based commitments that we can 

do for all of our veterans and work that out. 

And, finally, I just have a little bit of time and just a quick suggestion. I think there are a lot of people out there who are at that 

point where they would like to invest in someone, and they sure 

would like to invest in a veteran. And, looking at angel funds or 

looking at trying to develop Kickstarters just for veterans, I think, 

would be an interesting idea, because I think it would be a lot of 

investors would be motivated to help American returning veterans. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you. 

Senator Cardin. 

Senator CARDIN. Well, Madam Chair, first of all, thank you for 

this hearing, and I thank all of our witnesses. This is an extremely 

important subject in which all of us are reaching out to our veterans’ community to see how we can be more effective in helping 

them, particularly in the jurisdiction of the Small Business Committee. 

Mr. Jeppson, are you familiar with the Veterans Institute for 

Procurement at Montgomery County? 

Mr. JEPPSON. I most certainly am. It is a great program. 

Senator CARDIN. That is what I wanted you to say. 

[Laughter.] 

We are off to a good start. 

Mr. JEPPSON. Sir, it absolutely is, and I think it fills a very, very 

needed niche, if you will, in where we are at. For those of you who 

are not familiar with it, VIP takes businesses that have been 

around for a while, have a minimum amount of revenue, and then 

helps them make the jump into government contracting here. It is 

really unique and they do a great job at it. Like everyone else, they 

struggle with the funding, but we work closely with Barbara—— 

Senator CARDIN. Do you want to explain how much money of the 

Small Business Administration goes to this program? 

Mr. JEPPSON. We do not provide any money to that. 

Senator CARDIN. That is what I wanted you to say. 

Mr. JEPPSON. It is—— 

Senator CARDIN. This is 100 percent—— 

Mr. JEPPSON. It is—— 

Senator CARDIN [continuing]. Sponsored by the Montgomery 

County Chamber of Commerce. 

Mr. JEPPSON. It is, and it is a fantastic program, sir. 

Senator CARDIN. And it is nationwide in its help. It is not restricted to the businesses or veterans that live in Montgomery 
44 

County, Maryland. They are helping veteran businesses throughout 

the country and doing this because of their patriotic sense that 

they should do something to help our veteran community. 

And, I have looked at some of the numbers. There were some 

early numbers in the program. These numbers have gone up dramatically since. But, they showed through surveys that they helped 

create 1,600 jobs, and most of those jobs were veterans, because 

veteran-owned businesses tend to be more likely to hire veterans 

and mentor veterans. 

And my point is this. I am very supportive of the programs we 

have. I think we need to build on them and we need to make sure 

we get the value. But here, we have a program that is totally privately run that is helping with a natural area that we can in Montgomery County, Maryland, on government procurement, because of 

our location and our expertise, are helping provide the wherewithal 

that veteran-owned businesses can get the type of help through 

government procurement to grow and create more jobs, et cetera. 

So, I guess my point is, there seems to me there should be some 

way that the SBA can take this model and try to leverage. You 

point out they are having difficulty in continuing this program year 

in, year out, because of the budget problems, et cetera. But, to the 

extent that we can leverage private sector involvement to help our 

veteran community where they have a proven record of success, it 

seems to me this is a natural for us to try to build partnerships 

with so that we can do more to help our veteran community. 

That is a lead for you to agree with me. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. JEPPSON. Sir, I could not agree more. We have had—we have 

had a lot of people go up there, from my office, go up there and 

actually participate in the program and observe the program, and 

it is a great program, and Barbara Ashe does a fantastic job there. 

In a less resource-constrained environment for us, they are certainly one of the types of programs that we would look to replicate 

across the nation. They do—I cannot really speak highly enough of 

the program. 

Senator CARDIN. Well, I appreciate that, and I would just urge 

you—one thing you could do that would not cost any money is to 

promote what is being done by the private sector to help our veteran community. It is interesting. I think they tried to work with 

DOD and did not receive a lot of cooperation in trying to promote 

these programs and they were directed to the SBA. So, I would 

hope that the SBA would be a friendly environment to figure out 

how these types of programs can be expanded. And, again, it is not 

so much looking for money, it is looking for ways to make these 

sustainable programs and helping the private sector direct their 

own funds in the most constructive way. 

Mr. JEPPSON. Yes, sir. And, I would add to that, if I may, that 

as we see successful businesses come out of the new starts, from 

Boots to Business, it is going to be essential that we have programs 

like this that can help them with that growth, because, as I mentioned earlier, it is that 20 percent of small businesses actually go 

to that growth. That is where the job generation happens. 

They are a lot of self-employment, and that is a wonderful thing. 

There are a lot of guys who leave the service, are going to go to, 
45 

like a, you know, like my hometown of Blountstown, Florida, and 

they are going to be a welder and a small business owner and that 

is fantastic. But, there is that 20 percent that are going to be the 

job creators, and there is a good segment that will be in the government contracting arena and others who will need that help to make 

it from that. The needs of a start-up are certainly different than 

the needs with a two or three or a couple million dollars revenue 

trying to make that jump, and we need to be there with them for 

that. 

Senator CARDIN. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Thank you. 

I am going to ask another round of questions, so if any members 

want to, you are welcome to stay to do that. But, I am going to ask 

you, Ms. Payton, you made some testimony about removing the 

Federal caps and the sole source authority. Can you expand on 

that, about why you think that is so important in helping small 

businesses? 

Ms. PAYTON. From my experience, the competition and the market in the Federal contracting arena is extremely difficult for small 

women-owned businesses. So, when you get the audience of a program manager in a Federal agency and you get the audience of a 

contracting person that is willing to set aside opportunities because 

of the products that you provide, those caps can impede that 

progress which turns that into a real opportunity for business. So, 

removing those caps in places where it does not really make sense 

is, I think, going to open up the market for women-owned small 

businesses and allow the government to reach the goals that they 

have set and have tried to expand. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Okay. And, do you have any comments 

on the waiving of the fee on the financial side that Mr. Proulx and 

other people have testified to? 

Ms. PAYTON. Well, yes. My fee was waived under the Recovery 

Act, and so I continue to renew my line of credit that I have had 

from years ago. So, if you have to pay that fee and you have to add 

that to your overhead, every little bit counts, especially as a small 

business. You are competing amongst other small businesses that 

have very lean operations. So, the fee is another thing that you 

have to work to build into your product, and it can be very difficult 

when the bank has their set of fees and then the SBA has fees that 

you have to pay, as well. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. And so, Ms. Duso, are you seeing this 

as a key issue in some of the things that you have seen in the Pacific Northwest, the fee as a barrier to actually getting businesses 

financed? 

Ms. DUSO. I think any expense to a business is a barrier to getting them financed. The fee, you know, having the fee waived specifically is a great idea. I love it. It is more money into the pockets 

of those veterans up front. And Trena said, you know, she quit her 

job and kind of took the, I like to call it, burning the boats approach to starting her own business. And so a lot of times, people 

are living off of their savings, or they have just transitioned out of 

the military and maybe they have some kind of money that they 

have received, and so they are trying to live off of that money up 

front at the beginning, and any of that up-front beginning savings 
46 

is a gateway for them to be able to more quickly create more revenue and add that money back into their business operations. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Mr. Jeppson, Senator Risch brought up 

this very important point about metrics, and I understand from 

your answer about some of these programs are just getting underway. But, do you have any metrics on how many people may have 

gotten to that point on the financial thing but decided to turn back 

because of the fee? 

Mr. JEPPSON. We do not, and I will be honest. On the fee piece 

with the Veterans Advantage, we have only had about—we have 

only got a first quarter, because we just started it at the first of 

the year. So, we are still a little new into that. We looked at the 

overall total lending. It is consistent with what we have seen in the 

past two years. So, we think that with a little more time and a little more outreach to the veterans’ community, let them know about 

this advantage and the fact that the new—with the new piece that 

we will implement at the beginning of the fiscal year with the reduction above 350, we think that we will see kind of an acceleration of lending back on veterans. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. What was the higher amount? 

Mr. JEPPSON. So, the fee will be reduced to half for 7(a) loans 

above $350,000 for veterans. So, right now, on a loan up to 

$350,000, a veteran can save over $5,000 on that loan. They will 

pay half the fee above that. So, if a veteran was looking for a million-dollar line of credit, that could be a $50,000 savings to him. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. I think measuring, having some assessment, even if you can just on that portfolio of packages that have 

been approved on this program, I think would give us some understanding about what the market demand is, so to speak, for SBA 

loans under this program and give us some idea. It is hard to 

think, and the stories that I have heard today, that people are 

going to have $50,000 laying around for financing of an idea. You 

are talking about Boots to Business. To me, I just think about 

bootstrapping in general, and any small business is more in the 

bootstrapping mode. So, coming up with $50,000 seems like a huge 

barrier. But, anyway, I would love to know more. 

Mr. Proulx, did you have any comment on that before I turn it 

back over to my colleagues? 

Mr. PROULX. Yes. On that loan that he was talking about, the 

million dollars, I am actually going through the CAPline right now 

and that SBA fee/cost is roughly $30,000, is what I have got to pay 

up front right now, where I am looking at, just to secure a milliondollar line. So, right now, they are looking for a $30,000 fee. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Okay. Good. 

Senator Risch. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to pass on 

any further questions. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Okay. Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. We have been talking about procurement, and 

I know, Dan, one of the things you talked about in your testimony 

was the support from PTAP, the New Hampshire Procurement 

Technical Assistance Program, to help guide you through the process initially. Can you talk about what, from your perspective, we 
47 

could do to improve the Federal procurement process in a way that 

would be more user friendly? 

Mr. PROULX. You know, the PTAP and the SBA have been very 

helpful in my region. I think with the procurement on the Federal 

side of things, with the DOD, they are still doing the selfverification, unlike the VA, which is doing the CVE. And, I think 

that with the fraud possibly on the DOD side, because they do not 

have that extra—with DOD being self-verification, not actually putting the teeth in DOD contracting I think on the DOD side, you 

would have a little bit more where the veteran or the service-disabled veteran-owned company would have a better procurement 

process on the DOD side. 

Right now, the VA kind of weeded out a lot of the fraud, which, 

when I started in 2008, there were approximately 6,500 companies 

registered in the VA CVE, in our construction NAICS code and 

that was self-verification. In 2010, President Obama put the teeth 

into it. We are looking at, right now, 1,280, approximately, veteranowned businesses that are actually registered in that CVE. So, you 

are looking at almost 5,000 companies that were potentially fraud 

or had just disappeared. 

And I am sure, on the procurement DOD side, you are probably 

looking at—there has got to be potential fraud on that end. So, on 

the DOD procurement side, I would like to see some type of legislation with the veterans on that end, and also with the procurement 

process, with bonding fees and things like that. We find that when 

we do an RFP, some of these agencies are not promptly awarding 

these projects. So, it could be pushed out a year. So, by then, a job 

that is a million or two million dollars, I am actually tying up my 

bonding for one to two million dollars until that project is awarded, 

and that could take up to a year. When you are talking a small 

business whose bonding is being strung out for a year or two, that 

is painful. You have a business to run and that can really hurt 

your business. 

So, on the DOD side, if the fraud issue would be looked at, and 

then if the RFPs and the awards could go out more quickly on the 

procurement end, that would be great. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Good. Thank you. 

Ms. Payton, I know that you talked about the challenges that 

women face. As we looked at our Veterans Entrepreneurship Act, 

one of the things we learned is that even though women now make 

up 14 percent of the military, only about four percent of veteranowned businesses are owned by women. So, one of the things that 

we have included in our Act are a requirement that SBA examine 

whether the counseling programs are actually reaching women veterans to help them as they think about what options might be 

available to them. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the 

hurdles are that women veterans might be facing as they are looking at trying to start a small business? 

Ms. PAYTON. Yes. You know, there is a camaraderie that comes 

with being in the military, and then when I experienced the V– 

WISE program, the camaraderie sort of extended to other women 

that wanted the business. So, I think that when you create a community of people with like interests, what happens is they tend to 
48 

support each other and they tend to lend themselves as being a resource. 

So, I know that there are plenty of programs out there that provide counseling, that provide education, but that missing link was 

the networking and the camaraderie and the support that came at 

the V–WISE conference. And so that, coupled with the learning 

and education with the industry experts, that sort of clicked for me. 

I normally do not think of my service on a day-to-day basis, but 

when we got together as soldiers, that natural sort of kinship really 

sort of clicked for me. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you. 

Mr. JEPPSON. Senator, if I could just briefly add—— 

Senator SHAHEEN. Sure. 

Mr. JEPPSON [continuing]. Along that, just two points, quickly. 

V–WISE is—it is a great program, and when I first came in, I 

thought, well, why do we have to have something—a veteran is a 

veteran. Why are we differentiating? But, after having been to one, 

I clearly see the value in it. And, one of the things that we asked 

the private partners to give as well as money is their mentors to 

come along there. 

I would point out that with Boots to Business, as we track the 

cohort that goes through Boots to Business right now, a quarter of 

the participants in Boots to Business are female. And so when you 

consider that 14 percent of the service is female, they are over-indexing, or we have a lot more female veterans choosing the entrepreneurship track than are in the service. So, we think that this 

will help increase the number of female small business owners. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Good. Thank you very much. Thank you all. 

Chairwoman CANTWELL. Good. Well, I want to thank all the witnesses. Obviously, as usual in a hearing, we will leave the record 

open for two weeks. So, if any of my colleagues who are not here 

wanted to submit questions for the witnesses, they can do so, and 

we will keep that for the official record. 

But, I thank all of you very much for being here and for your testimony and for your leadership on this important issue. You certainly have told us a lot of inspirational things today about what 

veterans are doing to help our economy grow, and we certainly 

want to partner with you all in making that happen even at a 

higher rate through the more efficient and effective use of these 

programs. 

So, if nothing else, we are adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:28 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 
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