Note: The output shown below is from the

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the subcommittee meeting and is unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.

U.S. Access Board Thursday, April 3, 2014 (Meeting will commence at 1 p.m. eastern time)

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Welcome to the second meeting of the communications subcommittee as the CART system chat box is not available for subcommittee participants using only CART if you desire to rais e a question or make a statement please use E

- mail address RVAAC @ access

- board.gov. S ince we are continuing the meeting from March 13 the agenda in that meeting had a time of public comment

. A s anybody may participate in the conference call t here is
no public comment period scheduled for this call

. I amturn ing it over to Jim Pecht now and other introductions

around the table should be made >> JIM PECHT: Do that now Paul. >> LISA FAIRHALL: Lisa Fairhall, accessible staff >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Melissa And erson. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Marsha Mazz.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Those on the line can you indicate who is there? >> Glenn Millis with Metro.
>> Lisa Hamlin Hearing Loss Association.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay that's all, we have two people on the line Jim I will now turn it over to you. >> JIM PECHT: Okay. M s. P. sends regrets, she has a family emergency, I am going to take it from there, this is basically continue our discussion on the various types of signs looking through the categories and looking at the examples that Mr. Slaughter gave us and go with the discussion. N ext up is category the third category down designation signs for elements. T his is going to be a short meeting if you guys don't say something. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: Here is your opportunity Li sa and Glenn take it away. (LAUGHTER)>> Well, actually I don't have much to say I think a lot

of these categories are going to be for

-- for either Braille or not for Braille kind of thing and that's outside of my purview here. S o, maybe we should ju st run through it quickly. Wait

-- maybe people are going to join us in a little maybe they are just delayed a bit that's a possibility. I t might only

-- if we want to talk about the signage that can be changed we can talk about that or we can just wait for people to talk about the other categories.
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul speaking just for the benefit of Phillip

-- Andrew Phillips as the CART system chat box is not available for subcommittee participants using only CART to participate if you desire to raise a question make a statement send your E

- mail statement for question to RVAAC @ access

- board.gov.
>> Hi there, this is Andrew, I am connected through a sign language interpreter so I have both capabilities so I hear on the phone as well as the int erpreter I will try my best to participate and get all of the information. A lso, I do have one comment to make, I wanted to share about a bad experience on Metro yesterday because I wasn't able to get all of the information the important pertinent information I was supposed to get on time.So I was wondering one or two minutes do I have time to

share about what happens do I have one or two minutes to share about what happened? >> JIM PECHT: Sure. G o ahead. >> Okay. T hat's fine. I was riding the Metro b us from Silver Spring and I was going to the NAD office. Going to Gallaudet University and we had a meeting there at Gallaudet. A nd I was taking the ride on the Metro. A nd then they had a delay. A nd then it was at Catholic University of America is wher e the delay was out. We had announcements on the bus I didn't know what they said. A nnouncements I knew the train passed Gallaudet passed the Metro stop. S o I got off at the next stop Union Station. S o I got off at Union Station, and I caught another o ne going in the opposite direction. A nd so my train passed Gallaudet again a second time. A nd so we went to the next stop again I got off and back at Catholic University, stopped there. And then I had to wait for the next train to go south another

-- ag ain another opposite direction going back to Gallaudet University. A nd I waited and I waited. I tried to talk to the person who was do the PA announcements at Union Station. A nd so, we had to wait. I had to wait twice for the train I got on the firstt rain because I didn't really know when the first

-- that I

was going to pass Gallaudet. So, then I got off at Catholic station I asked the people around me to help me. I felt really, really helpless. And I felt like some people, you know, other people
we re really rude to me. A nd they gave me an awful face like when I asked for help they weren't want to go help. So, I finally asked somebody about the announcements on this train and when it was going to stop at Gallaudet or if it was or wasn't. T hey didn 't say anything so I had to wait. And then finally someone came up and said it will be getting off at Gallaudet wait for the second train. S o I looked up at the visual information screen, and it was an interactive informational screen. S o, they had said they are having problems near Rhode Island. A nd so, or near Rhode Island station. T hey didn't give me any information which train to take fortunately another person was there to help me I got on the second train that's when we were finally able to get off to get to Gallaudet it took me 30 minutes, I was 30 minutes late to my meeting. Y ou know, I was hoping that my story will inspire some of you guys to change these ways so that people like me don't have to suffer those kind ofnegative experiences. A nd so, you know, and I know

another deaf person too who has rode the Metro bus a half hour after me with a similar experience. T he bus kept going on and on it lasted a couple of hours that was yesterday. >> This is Lisa

. Acouple of things. F irst of all, I think your story really does show the need for the display that changes and can be interactive in real time. But the second is interpreter clarification there were a couple of times when the interpreter said Metro bus but it was my impression that you we re only on a train.
>> Oh, I apologize, yes, Metro train.
>> Lisa : O kay.
>> Sorry about that. O kay. T rain. T hank you. >> If I may, this is Glenn Millis from Metro. D o you have my

-- my E

- mail address? I would like to get the specifics on that because if there is Metro personnel involved I would like to follow up on that for you. I t shouldn't happen. We have some processes in place, and to advise people of what is going on in the Metrorail when we are having problems. A nd granted they are not perfect, they don't display all of the information everyone needs, they are designed to display the information that we think are going to

-- is going tobenefit the most people. I n this case it didn't meet your

needs. T he pit signs are up t here when there is service outage or interruption they are up there but they may not tell you the next train coming is not in service or you may have to wait two trains. S o we try to display that information along with the announcements in the station. We do have it on our website. I f you go to the website we give rail and bus alerts. T hat can provide sometimes a great bill more detail.
>> Good. T hank you for saying that.
>> Or through a computer or if you have a smartphone, through your smartphone if you have a text phone it will do that with service announcements.
>> I will E

- mail you all of the specifics folk
sure
-- for sure.
>> Thank you. T he last thing I want to say people are always better

-- we have station managers and I would hope that they would do what they are trained to do if someone has a

-- who has

-- cannot hear announcements in the train needs to get information, the best place to get it from is the station manager. And you know, they don't know signing but they can pull out a pencil and piece of paper and they can communicate. A nd share information. I f he knows itthen he can share it with you. B ut, again, I apologize.

You know what I would like to do more than anything else is find out what happened to you, and if you could give me the specifics then I am Gmillis @ WAMATA.com.
>> (inaudible) >> For purposes, to make sure I understand this (inaudible), because I used to sign up for it, and I removed it because I don't use Metro enough the subway. B ut it got to the point where I go t so many alerts especially when not riding. I don't know if the same goes for Andrew. B ut both of us occasionally use the Metro, the alert might not be beneficial because it's constant when we don't use it.
>> Well, that

-- that can be >> It goes to the smartphone. A nd you know the option is also available. I t also depends on where the barrier is because my sprint carrier, I don't have the capability to access Internet from a lot of the inside stations. >> Right. T his is Lisa

. Let me just add to this

. That inside the station we are talking also for the purposes of this meeting we are talking about in the rail
car. O kay? I f we had signage that was capable in real time to say, we are skipping this stop. A nd that couldbe on a menu that's canned. I could imagine doing

that. O r again, Amtrak is looking at systems that can be visual signage that the

-- in this case the station manager but, again, I would much rather see it again, we are looking at rail cars not the station for this committee. S o, hav ing that on a rail car and instead of depending on first of all we have no authority to look at you know what is going

-- my understanding we have no authority to talk about what is going on with somebody's smartphone but whoever it was that was speaking was saying you don't always get a signal on the smartphone. I have to back up what Andrew said. I
was on
-- in a situation where there was an emergency, we were taken off the train, and there was no information but I don't blame the station manager. Beca use there was one guy who was dealing with all of these passengers, and who was dealing with the emergency services personnel at the same time how could we tell me everything. I f it was on the train itself or on the situation frankly I need both, but we c an't deal with both, but saying this is what you

-- this is the situation, this is what to expect, what was happening was the rumor mill was going on I had a better experience than Andrew because people were talking tome. B ut they couldn't figure out what was going on

either. I t was emergency from emergency situation, it's visual, and I can't remember the name for it I am look for my piece of paper. B ut the kind of signage that changes and changes in real time is hugely important.
>> >> MARSHA MAZZ: Thi s is Marsha Mazz Lisa thank you for bringing the focus back to the rail car itself. Just as a point of information, there already is a requirement in the buildings standard where information is audibly presented in the station. I t also has to be visibly presented. A nd I think, Glenn

-- and I think Glenn understands that, the information that was presented on the visible sign may not have been really equivalent to what was presented audibly. A nd that is something that if the committee does choose to

-- t o recommend some kind of visual messaging system within cars, you will probably want to address in some detail in terms of what you expect that information to contain and how you expect that information to relate to what is being presented audibly. >> Than k you Marsha, that is a help. >> Oh, I have to agree with the fact that I don't think there are any subway systems although we aretaking

-- we are talking about primarily inner

- city rail

and what not. B ut I am not sure there are any subway systems that h ave real time visual displays that provide the kind of detailed information that we are talking about. I think it would be a great benefit to everyone it's just something that is not here yet. I would say this, for those who do rely on the rail alerts you can customize how much information you get limit to one railroad or line whatever. I think you can. And during certain times of the day to keep from being overload he had. I do it with the elevator outage application on the website. B ecause I do need to use elevators when escalators aren't working. A nd so, you know, there are ways to constrain information. But

-- we do not have a way currently on the train to tell you anything of the sort that is being requested other than audible announcement. >> Th is is Chris Hart. G lenn, I wanted to just make a note that at least (inaudible) to send out real time text and audio messaging to either one symbol or one line
or
-- so, the technology exists. >> This is Frank Maldari. I think you stopped talking Chris I didn't want to cut in on you. T he technology

-- >> Yes, I did.>> The technology you mentioned we have

something similar now you can send a message and can create one. B ut try to go get it to the exact car on a specific train or a specific train on a li ne is not as easy as it might seem. To do that reliably and making sure you don't get the wrong car and give the wrong message to the wrong train currently is not an easy thing to do. It would be a lot easier just to have a canned message on the train. And get the crew to use the same type of message. T he problem is, you know, problems and situations are very variable. A nd the information that is coming along the radio is not always what you would expect and can have a canned message for. So, ideally you would like to

-- the visual signs to have exactly what the audio messages are. B ut it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, this CART system works only so good as it does now you understand going from speech to visual is not an easy thing to do. S o, yea h, people do it they are trying to make it but if you limit all conversation to only what you can repeat on the visual sign you will be limiting the information of information that you can provide. A nd I don't think that's what you want to do. Y ou want t o get as much information out to as many people as possible, using the means that youhave available. A nd, right now, you don't have an

accurate real time speech to text converter that you can rely on. I don't think it's a good idea to limit the informat ion that you are giving out. You try to say if there is a delay you can put a visual message that interest there is a delay up. B ut the additional detail you try to give to make most of the people know what is going on shouldn't be limited by what you ca n put up visually. >> This is Lisa , what about the idea of rolling this out
over time, for example? M aking some kind of recommendation that says: T his is not available now, but what is available now

-- for example, something simple. I go to the

-- I go t o Shady Grove all the time when it stops at groves nerve I have to basically watch if everybody is getting off let's say I should be looking at the train coming in I get that but

-- but if I was reading and I get on I don't know which train I am on or
some body who has never ridden the line they get there if they can't hear the only way I know for sure is if everybody else leaves I am at Grovesner, I better get off. If there was a sign end of line here it is. A nd some clever guys do things like flip the li ghts on and off that's not consistent either. T hose are the kind of messagessay let's roll it out. Let's say that are X kind of things

that we can predict that might happen. A nd that we need to train our people to use under certain situations. And the n say, also, because the other thing that we find with technology is if there is a request for it. You have some clever guy out there saying, oh, there is going to be a market for this product, let's figure out how to make this happen. A nd they do it. S o, I mean,
even
-- I think the Amtrak is not voice

- to

- text, I think what happens is the managers types in the message obviously it has to be a brief message that goes up on the board at the same time somebody is saying it. Those kind of systems seem to be totally doable. We are not looking for something complex like we are having a meeting and the CART writer is trained to provide text as I am speaking, but a short message to get out and make sure that it's similar if not exact to what is going on, in an emergency particularly but even get off this train right now

-- those kind of things could be canned I think.
>> Yes, this is Gary Talbot could I chime in for that on a moment that's a great point exactly what (inaudible) >> JIM PECHT: Gary Jim Pecht could I pull us back weare getting far afield from the agenda. I sort of

recommend we leave the discussion when things are audible they need to be visual and vice

- versa as a more general discussion we do under the communication subcommittee sometime at a late r date and go back to focus inch on the signage issue if I could persuade you to do that I would appreciate it. I f we could get back to the categories, and look at what we are

-- whether we should deal with visual or visual and tack tile or audible or VMS sign or anything like that. Get back to the designations and the non

- emergency informational and operational and informal and emergency information mall operational signs in the built environment would be visual only if they were required to be

-- to have anything at all. B ut can we sort of steer the discussion back to those signs and leave the other discussion for another day? A nd I hear crickets. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: They were finally talking. (LAUGHTER) >> Well, this is Gary Talbot. T he only thing I would say Jim I think it is important for people to understand that having an emergency message pre

- canned in textthat and voice rather that in text I should say that you

would have that automated audio that goes out and then your signs play the same thing whether there is a fire you immediate to evacuate or anything else I think folks need to understand that that capability is already there. People are doing that today. >> This is Frank. I think it's a goo d idea what you are suggesting Jim I think there is more conversation to be had in the area we can get back to the signs. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Do we have a number of new people who have joined? >> Yes. B lair Slaughter just joined. >> Okay

. >> (inaudible) B ombardier just joined.
>> Great. A nybody else? >> JIM PECHT: I know Gary is out there.
>> I'm sorry, Gary Talbot.
>> And Chris is out there. A nd Frank Maldari >> David Nelson is here. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Do you have a list of people you want to read through it ask if anyone is there.
>> Lisa Hamlin. We have now listed everybody that's
on.>> Okay.

>> JIM PECHT: All right. S o, getting back to designation signs for elements if this were in the built world covered at al l it would be a visual sign only. S o, if you look at the signs, which Mr. Slaughter had provided we chose a sign for cups with Braille underneath it, and like I say the only thing I have ever had with issues with Braille is that is nice, but how do you fi nd that sign. And, discussion. (LAUGHTER) >> Well, this is Blair. T he expectation normally this would be in the vicinity of where the faucet or the sink is depending on configuration. T he problem that we have sometimes in the trains because of the s pace limitation is that things aren't always in the place that we would obviously

-- that they would obviously be in the built environment. S o, that's why we sometimes point out what would otherwise be

-- would need no direction or pointing out. I t may b e that the cup dispenser is under a ledge or something where it would not normally be but that's the space we have available. I f the idea would be that it would be within the vicinity of maybe where you would expect the cups to be or you know, near the co untertop or something along those lines andit varies by application.

>> JIM PECHT: And Blair this is Jim you don't get it with the built environment either. You expect it hopefully to have the towel dispenser near the lavatory it may not be but on the wa ll behind you if you don't know that you have wet hands feeling and for the towel dispenser.
>> Right. >> JIM PECHT: It's not just simple

-- just

-- it happens in the built environment as well. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I think arguing either for

-- arguing neither for nor against this

-- this is Marsha. T he question I think the committee has to resolve is whether a sign like this that would not in the built environment be required to have raised letters in Braille is there a compelling reason to require it to have raised letters and Braille in the rail environment and that

-- you know, we want to distinguish between what might be required and best practices. C ertainly, I think that nobody is going to disagree that it is definitely a best practice to do what Amtrak has done here. A nd the question is whether the committee wants to recommend adopting that best practice as a minimum requirement or not.>> I think that's a good point Marsha. W hat is

concerning to me is if you look through the decals that Amtrak did even the ones that they tried to make accessible are not meeting the regulations. A nd if we are allowed to meet

-- to provide the additional information without it being a requirement, it makes it a lot easier.
>> The issue with having to know the sign is t here in order to require it, I think is a very good point. A nd that's what was followed with the buildings and I think the same thing should be followed with the vehicles. That doesn't preclude the authorities from requiring additional signs that have Braille. We got 187 decals in
our car. 1 87 decals.
>> Is that all? (LAUGHTER) >> if every one of those decals were ADA compliant I submit to you there would be no clear floor space wall space ceiling space in the cars there would be no windows. O ne de cal I tried to look at we have directional informational sign on the windows that tells you how to remove the window rubber. R ight now the sign is about two inches by four inches it goes on a window two feet by four feet. I f I made that signcompliant th ere would no longer be a window. W hen

you require things, because you think it would be a nice thing to have recognize and you add in all of the additional baggage that comes with making it an accessible sign you wind up creating more problems than you or iginally anticipated. A nd that you really wanted to do. T hat's not the intent. W hereas, you can put Braille and raised lettering on a lot of the signs, without it being 100% compliant with the regulations and still have some means of accessibility witho ut meeting the letter of the law. A nd provide the additional accessibility that you might want without it being overwhelming to the car's interior. A nd I don't know if everybody realizes 187 decals are already on the
cars. A nd we typically put another c ouple of decals on every year because of some issue.
>> This is Lisa could you identify who was just speaking? I ask people to identify themselves please >> I'm sorry that was Frank Maldari. >> Thank you.
>> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think Frank is ri ght on a lot of points obviously different modes are going to do things sort of according to the business they are in. And I think we do need to focus on what is most criticalas far as the information that needs to be

-- needs to be

required to be commun icated. A nd then have leeway within the different authorities to do what may be more appropriate for their conditions. I wouldn't

-- I wouldn't assume for a lot of folks that you know simple things that we have

-- we have done would necessarily be required and in some cases, wouldn't even make sense because the

-- while you are looking for the sign with Braille and raised letters you find the cups as an example. B ut, you know, we went that route because we had a lot of areas that were not always obviousl y. And we

-- when we reached out to see about the letter height and we have got smaller letters than are required. Or at the bottom of the range, the comments that we got back were there that if some of

-- something is not required, but yet it's

-- it's within the lower end of the range having it in any form is better than not having it. So, that was what we used as a our driver and that led
us
-- let us deal with the spatial issues shall better. One of the things we should talk about at some point is t he hierarchy of where you would go down to the lower range, is it a safety issue? I s it convenience issue? Those kinds of things. B ut I guess the first thing we need to do is decide what needs to

-- to fall into thecategory of tactile and visual. S ort that out first.

>> This is Lisa is there anybody on the call who is an expert in Braille signage? >> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes, staff are. >> I mean, from the committee. I mean, obviously you are but I mean somebody from the c ommittee who is an advocate for Braille. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Your committee chair is and unfortunately was unable to attend.
>> Lisa : I am wondering if it makes sense to come to decisions without her input.
>> This is Gary Talbot, I can just share with you wh at we did at the MBTA. We did a lot of raised character Braille signage on board vehicles. Wayfinding. W hole bunch of stuff. Alot of experience with the two main methods that you use for raised character Braille signage, you know, from spaces to acces sible spaces, to, like I

-- like I said, wayfinding with arrows and directional, and stuff like that. A nd we found

-- and we used the 2004 ADAAG kind of as a guide but at the same time clearly approached it from if the sign

-- if the sign is important to convey information why wouldn't it be important to someone who is blind. T hat was how we approached it. We weren't able to do probably 100%but I bet you we got close.

>> Gary this is Blair. T hat was sort of the
same
-- the same avenue that we took. Y o u know, it
was
-- you couldn't go back and find requirements but it was where it made sense. O bviously we wouldn't put raised letter tactile sign unless an electrical locker. You will find the shocking parts in there if you happen to get in there. We do have a sign on the outside that says don't go in there. A nd that is typically tactile. >> Yeah, I agree. W hat was interesting to me is in a couple of places, and I would have to dig up my notes to give you the exact examples like on board rail car. Whe re we didn't feel it was

-- the signs really worked. We ended up not putting up a sign which I felt was a really great solution. B ecause we convinced ourselves that oh, my God we have to have the sign here, as soon as we made it accessible it was like we really can't work out the accessible stuff we ended up in some cases saying we shouldn't be putting a sign up there anyway. And you know didn't work 100% but it worked a lot of it. I think that was good for rulemaking. I would hope if it's important en ough to convey information then those

-- to those of us with sight then it's important to make it accessible to those that need an accessible sign.>> Gary, I have a question for you on that point. A nd

maybe it's a refinement that the committee needs to deal with (Marsha) I am looking at the caution watch your step with the Braille. And I am thinking you know, how would I use the sign? I f I am reading the sign tactilely, I am probably reading it with my dominant hand. I f I am reading it with my dominant hand I am not using my cane or holding on to my dog. F or a sign like this, I guess I would question the practicality of a raised letter and Braille sign as opposed to something audible that, you know, warns like you see on escalators sometimes? O r
-- >> Yes, and I think that's a great

-- I'm sorry, this is Gary Talbot. I think that's a great comment of what we ran up against Marsha was just the white noise. T he noise of the environment was so loud. S o we would do these. I believe we did these on a le vel landing far enough away from the actual steps just to give someone a cue that we are walking into steps basically or walking to a landing where there were steps that kind of thing that's what we were trying to do. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. >> This is Blai r. Y ou know along the same lines though, when you are in the built environment, let's sayescalator that's a good example, you are approaching

the escalator, there is not likely to be another obstacle close by that you could miss a problem. I n a rail car environment, if you did that same thing, you may have multiple

-- multiple things at once all saying similar message. You could have that going through the vestibule from car to car. You could have it going out on to the platform. I could imagine it su ddenly being very confusing with all of these different little voices telling you something. (LAUGHTER)
>> But the point that you made about using the guide dog or the cane brings up a very interesting point. A nd that is, you are already

-- one, hopefully the dog wouldn't take you to an unsafe condition. B ut also, using the cane, adds a level of sensitivity for the person versus what we see in our world, unfortunately, is the people with no visual impairments walking themselves into situations because they are not paying attention. And maybe those in some cases are situations where people with visual impairment are paying attention because it's part of their normal life. I don't know if that makes any sensor not but I know that I am an amputee when I am walking around wet surfaces I payextra attention to the surfaces that I am walking on.

Other people do not and fall. S o, I don't know if that kind of logic works, but certainly worth thinking about. I wouldn't

-- I have to be very careful with audi ble things in just creating the potential for confusion. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I see your point. >> I thought that was a good point this is Frank again. I thought that was a good point in it

-- in this particular decal if you can see you are more in tune with l ooking for a gap everywhere. A nd some of these signs are more for people who are not paying attention. A nd who can see. T han the person who is already you know paying for attention to the obstacles. S o, and which is pointed about the audible signs 187 voices speaking at you is going to get very confusing. We try for this particular issue because we have had problems with people not watching their step or watching the gap in particular. We try to add that to the audio announcements that we have we try to add it in. Sometimes it comes across the sign too. B ut as a commuter operation you can only get so many things in and still be able to make station announcements which are the most important thing you want to know the next station or destination once you get on the train. T henew audiovisual signs do a good job of that automating

the voice and visual. A nd they do match up. A nd the most important information is provided that way. A nd consistently. A nd that should help, you know the average person t rying to get off the train as well as somebody with an accessibility issue. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Is there anything on this listed that the members present feel could be taken off the list as something that everybody agrees would not

-- would not need to be acce ssible? F or example, the employee signs. I s that something that people are comfortable enough saying, these would not need to be raised letters

-- raise lettered and Brailled? O r are you feeling that they should be acceptable.
>> This is David Nelson he re. I have a question about the faucet sign. S o I am assuming there is a lot of Braille on the bottom part of it, so, I am assuming that the Braille actually says faucet push for water, turn knob to adjust temperature. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I checked the Brail le on all the signs in the handout they are all exactly what is the sign itself says. >> I guess my question though

-- you know what, I can't speak for the blind community at all, but isthat

-- is that information needed? O r to read it to say

faucet.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: I wouldn't touch it. (LAUGHTER) >> Wouldn't touch the sign or the faucet. >> MARSHA MAZZ: This is Marsha. I wouldn't touch a sign in a bathroom. (LAUGHTER) >> If you wash your hands afterwards. (LAUGHTER) >> (inaudible). >> MARSHA MAZZ: I touch as few surfaces as I can.
>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. T he reason that that in this particular case the function of this faucet, the machinery is probably a little different from what people are used to encountering. Again, we t ried to use the logic, if it was an obvious thing of the faucet that people are used to encountering, then we don't say anything. B ut if it's something that maybe, even if you see it you go okay what do I do to this thing to get out water out of

-- get water out of it you are pushing on it nothing it happening. You are waving your hand under it, so, it's really

-- we treat these things as a case by
case. S ometimes you look at it and go wow that waspainfully obvious why did you do that? S ometimes

maybe it's better to err on having too much than too little. We try not to put it on a sign that is obvious the mechanics are understood by most folks. I n that case it would be this is a strange faucet. S ome of these devices occur not because we really want t o buy something that is weird, but the mechanical function of faucets and things on trains we have freezing issues that you wouldn't have in the built environment because you don't open the doors and let things freeze. Even sometime the faucets end up bei ng weird by the needs of the environment. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Blair, this is Marsha. I will just support your comment by saying that, two of us who have vision impairments here in our office didn't know that there was hot water in your restrooms for over t hree years. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: Because the marking was visual. And the faucets are atypical in terms of how you get to that hot water. >> Blair: R ight. We did something good for a change that's great Marsha. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Two people at the table now whodon't have vision impairments are not saying we can get

hot water. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: I figure it out after a year. (LAUGHTER) >> We were talking about something that I had to listen to.
>> (inaudible). >> No. N obody is muted. >> We a re now I'm sorry I apologize. >> Chris Hart: T his is Chris Hart. I think (inaudible) it finally comes down to figuring out what you want to recommend for tactile Braille is that it has to be

-- there has to be buy in from NSB and all of the folks who rep resent the (inaudible). I just want to make sure everyone bear that is in mind. I guess we would not make addition of audio without (inaudible). >> MARSHA MAZZ: So, do you folks want to tackle the employees signs? >> I vote for no this is Frank I think you can take it off of tactile and visual. I f you want to start there. I think it's a good idea what you are trying to do. I guess my point that I would like to suggest, is there are certain signs which definitely should be tactile and visual. A nd they should be meeting automatic of the

-- meeting allof the ADAAG requirements as far as size and where the

Braille is located. A nd that should be a small portion of the sign. A s it is in buildings. I f there are other signs, which may be beneficial to have it, then I think either you make it optional or you remove the requirements that currently exist for 5/8 lettering and the size of the decal because the consequences are not what you would like to have with those decals. You know, we put decals in that h ave, you know, tactile, raised lettering Braille. We can still provide some measure of accessibility. B ut if we add those

-- I consider them strong requirements then we are really going to make in a rail car, which is space sensitive, and we only have so much, we are going to create problems. A nd I know everybody would like to put every

-- if it's available to one person make it available to everybody. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Frank, this is Marsha. T here is not a lot of research on the subject there is some. The research suggests that if you get smaller than 5/8 inch for raised letters it's not readable. S o, a provision that says it can be you know, a half inch or 3/8 of an inch would have to have some support that you are

-- that the requirement is still

- - still resulting in a benefit. But the research indicates that it would likely not resultin a benefit if it were smaller than 5/8. S o, maybe your

discussion should be more around if you can't meet the standard, what are your alternatives rather than ch anging the standard because I, again, there is nothing to support anything smaller than 5/8 as being usable.
>> Yeah, this is Frank again. T hat's why we were concerned about requiring a requirement on all of the signs if you look at the sign that Blair ha s here, you know, it says faucet the lettering push for water is kind of small in comparison. I bet it's not 5/8 of an inch even without that I think it's giving you the information that you want. I f you require it then you are obligated to also apply th e additional size requirements and decal size requirements that's going to create a problem. So

-- >> Chris Hart: I would like to suggest if you endorse (inaudible) I could help arrange so you could see how you could

-- you could get a sense of what we a ble to do both in tactile Braille and you will discover

-- (inaudible) ... about what we did and we find out about signage so I but seeing that you (inaudible). Without the liability

-- of actually

-- you want to make things more accessible to everyone.
> > This is Frank again. I didn't hear everything yousaid Chris, fortunately for me I got pretty good vision

the decals that Blair puts out I think says a lot. Yes, you can put Braille we have some Braille on our signs too you can have raised lettering, a nd you know, when you go through each and every 187 decals you can look through them and decide which ones you could put them an which ones would be very difficult and maybe get rid of a couple of them which would be nice. B ut the problem is, when you mak e a regulation, and you require them all to be, you create a problem. S o, that's why I am saying, if we are going to lock ourselves into requirements of size of the decal and size of the lettering we should be very careful. I think it's a good idea to su ggest that the authorities look through their decals, I mean it's happening already at Amtrak without a requirement. I t's happening at the MBTA without it being a requirement. I f you don't put the requirements on you may find there is a lot more decals o n the car with more information that is accessible than requiring all information be accessible.
>> This is Gary Talbot. I f I could just chime in. You know, I love the T, I am a huge supporter of the T but the T had a mega hundred million settlement agre ement. I bring that up I am not sure the T wouldhave been down that path and enabled us to do that had

that not been the case. >> JIM PECHT: F rank, this is Jim Pecht. J ust to bring up one thing you said about making things optional. Basically there is nothing that the regulation prohibits you from doing or going beyond. I f it's not required it's optional. Everything is optional. I don't think you need to specify things can be optional unless doing a technical piece or doing a good design practice saying you might want to do this. Everything is not required it's optional. I would like to look at these things and say, okay, which one of these are some of these signs that can be not required to be accessible at all which ones are those. I f they are r equired to be accessible to what extent. I n other words, to me, I think at the very least the emergency sign should be

-- should meet the visual requirements. T hose seem to be fairly important and things that you want things to have at a minimum to have the visual requirements for a sign for

-- depending on what distance you are looking at. W hether it also has to be tactile or something that is the committee's call to look at. I t may be you want to paragraphs some of these signs

-- parse some of these s igns differently. You can require the pictogram to be a certain size butnot everything else. I t's up to you to look at the signs

and make those determinations. >> Yeah. D oing that without a regulation is easy to do than doing it with a regulation. A nd I know

-- I know it's a difficult

-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: That's a truism that you can't avoid. I mean it would be easier for you if there weren't regulations. T he job of the committee is to decide what to recommend as a regulation. S o, I

-- >> This is Fran k. I wasn't sure if there was an opportunity to put a suggestion out as opposed to a requirement out. T here should be a requirement and the requirement should be clear and consistent with the ADAAG as it applies to the building I think that's a good idea that there are certain decals that fall into there. But the

-- the feeling I get is people wanted all of the information and once you put all of the information on all of the requirements you wind up with a problem. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Frank, you use that
re commendation you blew past one recommendation that's one recommendation the committee could make. Which is, you know, you want the signs on the train to at least meet the standards of the

-- for the signs on

-- or on the vehicle to meet the standards for sign ins abuilding. T hat's a starting point. I think that

somebody at some point has got to throw something out there and we have got to work from that because I think that it's clear that you know, there is a constituency on the committee that wants mo re accessible signs and there is a constituency on the committee that fears that everything is going to have to be tactile. There should be some middle ground here somewhere. S o, taking what you said, as
a
-- potentially a starting point, which is you k now, if it would be

-- if it were a building it would be required to be accessible might be a good place to start. S o, those signs that identify rooms and spaces, might be a place to start. >> I agree with that. I definitely agree on that one I definitel y agree employee only signs wouldn't be required. T hen we have the rest of the list to fill out. But I think we got those two boxes covered. >> Chris Hart: O kay. I would just tell the committee in general, when (inaudible) BTA (inaudible) committee (in audible) really wanted to know what the sign number is on every door. We want to know what end of the car we are on. S o like on a light rail vehicleyou want A end and B end. A nd so, you know, you got

you can say it's 101 at A end and in some cases you can go a step further you numbered the doors like you do (inaudible). S o you don't have to go find somebody to ask, what time, what end am I on. ( inaudible) I do like the idea that (inaudible) I think there is middle ground here where we can do more than what we are doing, do more than what is currently required. B ut as suggested, avoid (inaudible). To me it will be (inaudible) of that. (inaudible). >> This is Gary Talbot. I would support both what (inaudible) and Chris just said I think that's a gre at place to be. >> I am going

-- this is Frank. I am going to have to be dissenting opinion unfortunately, I don't think it's good to have the

-- not that I don't think it's good to have the information I think Chris was focusing on employee only signs. What happens is now you identified the door number, when there is an announcement you have to also identify the car number. So now the person really wants to know what door he is allowed to go out he has to find the car number not knowing where it's locat ed so he can figure out where the door number might be whereas the one that'sactually not going to open. I think that's a unique

situation. H opefully there aren't too many of those failures, that's a failure condition not a normal operating condition. And I am assuming that you were talking specifically about employee only signs. I f I am wrong then you can clarify it. T he last time I mentioned previously was employee only signs would be one that everybody could agree on didn't need to be accessible. What the intent of the discussion? >> You were talking about the car numbers and the reason that people wanted access to the car numbers or the car number is so that if they had a problem they could report it on that car.
>> Chris: T hat is correct. I r ealize we are discussing (inaudible) as begin to focus on other things like light rail, the issue of the car numbers, the doors rotating really are the car both tactilely and visually becomes really critical to report the issue or if you
-- you hit the cal l box to help being able to say, I am at A and the car versus the B it's helpful for staff to know where to respond to. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim let me ask a question of the committee does anybody think employee only signs should have some level of access ibility or should theynot be required to comply with anything?

>> This is Lisa , I feel that I have to abstain because I really

-- I am not an expert in this area. S o, I don't

-- I would just

-- it sounds logical to me but I can't say one way or the other

. >> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I honestly can't, employee only signs, why they would

-- first, they are not intended in any cases for passengers impaired or otherwise to deal with them. S imply to facilitate prompt an employee responding to the right place to service the car or turn the water off if there is a problem. S omething like that. S o, I don't see where there would be any need to make those signs accessible. >> This is Gary Talbot. I t makes sense to me that the employee only sign woul dn't have to be made accessible. I am a little uncomfortable about what others might feel

-- I don't know why they might feel that those signs need to be made accessible. I am not aware Chris we didn't do anything on the commuter rail stuff or anything e lse for employee stuff. We exempted that. >> Chris: Yes, that's correct. >> This is Lisa

. M y question would be: I f for example there was some kind of emergency on a train,you don't see any way that somebody might have to go

through an employee area at all? A nd might find that helpful to have something that, you know, that would orient them? I am assuming in an emergency other people would be there so really it's

-- but, yeah, I just don't know that's all I am saying. Would there be a situation like that.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Lisa

. T his is Marsha we aren't talking about signs in employee areas. We are talking about the signs where the audience or reader of the sign would be only employees. I n other words, the signs that tell the employee where a partic ular control is. >> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. T here is

-- I mean, obviously there are other organizations the FRA and APTA that have governance over what happens on the railroad and the FDA or transit. A nd there are some areas that are pretty well designed about the

-- if an area is intended for passenger egress or emergency access or egress any of those kinds of things then they have to be marked. A nd that falls into another world. What we are looking at is if there is access to turn the wat er off. T here are really things that are irrelevant and in many cases if we could eliminate the sign beingvisible to the public at all, we probably would. B ut we

have equipment that roams around in different parts of the country, you may have employees maybe on board employee who isn't trained in depth on a piece of equipment but works on that piece of equipment needs to know where a device is. A nd rather than fumbling would know where the device is. I n a lot of cases if we could take the signs away we would take them away. Because we don't want the to encourage the public to fiddle with things either. I f they don't know what is back there often they won't bother.
>> This is Lisa again. I f that's the kind of signage we are talking about then I am con vinced that sounds like it makes sense to not worry with creating Braille for that. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. I am going to put a big X under not required for employee signs. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Jay. Let's move up to another softball he said wi th a snicker in his voice. M enus and directories. A gain, in the built environment these would not be required to comply with anything because they are considered temporary and very changeable. Menus change, directories change when people move from place to place et cetera, et cetera.>> MARSHA MAZZ: The other reason they are exempt

in the building standards is that if you can imagine you know directory in a tall building which already takes up a wall if it were raised letters and Braille it would take up more real estate than potentially you have in the lobby. >> JIM PECHT: Even the visual requirement to make it that huge. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Exactly. >> JIM PECHT: So, committee feelings? >> MARSHA MAZZ: And I do know that menus at the cafe car, for example, was an issue that your chairman had a concern about. S he did raise it when you were going around the table, and identifying issues. >> Chris: I t's important to note that DOT had to override Amtrak in its formal letter where the standards would say signag e, they should look to the building code because (inaudible) Amtrak was various obligations including (inaudible) height because it claimed they weren't the vehicle standards. S o, I hope that we further clarify that during this, that the public (inaudible ) that the rail entity be cognizant of DOT standards that if it's not (inaudible) it should look at the actual building standards >> MARSHA MAZZ: Right. B ut Chris Marsha again.The point that Jim was making and I was making is that

the building standards right now would not require the cafe menu to be raised letter or Braille or tactile or in any way
-- or even meet the visual standards. S o, if we accept that the DOT guidance that the building standards are sort of the floor, the minimum, I guess the que stion then is are there compelling reasons to go beyond those in a vehicle such as at the cafe menu. >> Chris: Yes, that's, I'm sorry I know I (inaudible) cafe car. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Right. >> This is Lisa

. T he captioner is having trouble with Chris's voic e could somebody repeat please.
>> This is Gary Talbot. I think Chris was just bringing to the committee's attention that on the DOT issue frequently asked question and document that states to everyone that whenever Part 37 Part 38 is silent on an issue, that that doesn't mean that you can just do whatever you want to do and he used counter height as an example where what DOT stated was you now have to go back in to the

-- to like ADAAG to the U.S. DOT 2006 to look at all of the document to find out what m ay apply. C ounter height is great example 34 and 36 inches above versus like a 42

- inch counter height. A ndhe was just, I think bringing that to everyone's attention.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I mean our menus on vehicles are

-- they chan ge more frequently than say a McDonald's. Typically they are on a monthly cycle. S ome things are always the same just the same as it if

-- as if it would be as a chain food store. B ut I am just curious. W hen we are considering things like that that are p assenger convenience does it have sort of a reverse spill to the building side if we start down that path? I assume that there is at some point that risk if we say, directory or menu or something has to be visual and tactile, it's going to fall back towar d the built side of the world. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Blair in your first meeting one of the first things that I suggested that you pay some attention to is that very point. T hat the

-- if you have inconsistent requirements, regardless of whether it's between a train and a building or a playground and a building, there has to be good justification for those inconsistencies based on the differing

-- the differing
venues. S o, it's more a question of what is it about a train that makes this necessary or makes this difference necessary. O r a vehicle, sorry that makes this difference necessary. S o, you know, it is a good pointthat you raise. A nd an important one to sort of keep in

the back of your mind. B ecause we don't want to say in one environment this is the minimum necessary to avoid discrimination on the basis of a disability and in another environment, which doesn't present anything uniquely different from the first environment this is the

-- something else is the minimum necessary to avoid discrimination. That leaves us open to accusations

-- accusations of arbitrary and capricious among other things. >> This is Blair again. I suppose that

-- the tricky part is if I look at menus that you see on the railroad today. O ne of the things that that can be an issue is that if the graphic designer that did them isn't really tuned in there is not enough contrast, type sizes can be too small for people who have no visual issues at all or the lighting that is available may not be sufficient to illuminate a non

- ill uminated menu sign. A re some of these concerns addressable by addressing other issues in the vehicle lighting that is illuminating menus and having menus available that can be viewed more closely than maybe the one behind the counter. I s that something t hat we could discuss? T hat doesn't affects the printed menu that's tacked to the wall but maybeaffects where it is or how it occurs? H ow it's offered to

the public? >> MARSHA MAZZ: This is Marsha again. You certainly can recommend location criteria for signs. I think that's perfectly within our purview. I know the last time I went to a cafe car on the northeast corridor the menu was behind the counter.
>> Right. >> MARSHA MAZZ: So, you know, not something that I could get up close to. B ut I have seen them in other places where they were on a return wall. W hen you do that nobody can read it over your shoulder. B ut that kind of thing is within your purview. W hat I would like to not put on the table at this point in time is anything relating to an alt ernative that is not part of the vehicle. That's not permanently installed in the vehicle such as a Braille menu that you may hand to the customer. Y ou know a paper Braille menu that you may hand to the customer. O r a large print menu you might hand to the customer. T hose are all things that you can and maybe should do. W hen you can't see the sign but I would like to see the committee focus on what should be minimally required in the vehicle where

-- where it falls short all of the other programmatic k inds of solutions are reallyoutside of our venue, and really belong to the effective

communication requirements of the ADA and to the enforcing authorities. I f that makes sense. We can comfort ourselves with the fact that when we don't make something ac cessible the regulations may come in

-- you know, the ADA regulations may come and

-- come in behind and require something programmatically of the entity that isn't a fixed solution that's part of the vehicle. B ut I don't think this committee should jump to those alternatives.
>> Chris: I think it's also worthwhile in general the community is always really (inaudible) to require interactive solutions for people. ( inaudible) because the person (inaudible). S o, as Marsha said, (inaudible) the vehicle is key. >> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. I just want to reiterate for everybody we are talking about a rail vehicle which is a definable space which can be so big but no bigger unlike an arrival and departure directory in a train station where you design a two

- story high space to meet the requirements for a very large lettered visual sign. You really can't do that in a vehicle. D epending on how much stuff you are going to put on the menu. >> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think in thinkingabout things that can't b e made part of the vehicle,

which fall within our

-- the committee's realm, there could be requirements for the lighting levels of where the menus are placed at a minute mum. I

-- at a minimum. I think that would have a good universal effect. I think wi th something that is printed and tends to be market driven all of those things and changeable, I don't know since it's not part of the car can we require levels of contrast and lettering and those kinds of things. S ome of it

-- some of these things are ba sic to graphic design, and in the lack of

-- in the absence of requirements it's up to the

-- it's fairly objective or subjective, I'm sorry, to the designers. A nd often you will end up with text that is barely readable by someone who has perfect vision. Which is very frustrating. I am not in that really many anymore of having good vision. But I don't know since a menu that's printed isn't part of the vehicle is there anything that we can say about that and I ask that to the board.
>> This is David Nels on here. I recommended many years ago about creating a text menu. You know, on 8 and a half or 11

-- 8 and a half by 11 paper, the LSA or food service people could have it ready in their cabinet somewhere. A nd then either the crew can, you know,borrow it or give it to the person so they can look over

it. B ut, I mean, I guess that's just not something that has been carried out. I mean I think this is something that should be strongly encouraged to just develop a policy where it's there, you know, a com pany policy or transit policy something like that. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Again, this is Marsha Mazz. That's really outside of the purview of our agency. A nd therefore outside of the purview of the committee. Again, I encourage you to focus on the things that are really within our purview, and to the extent that you have time at the end of this process, if you want to list recommendations to DOT that, you know, things that they should consider in their regulations, certainly you
can. B ut or that operators coul d just adopt as best practices, I think that's fine. I f we could stick to what is part of the vehicle now, and not get too far afield with the alternatives that would be good. Regarding lighting, for those of you who have an interest there is a draft gui deline on the website of the national institute of building sciences, and it's something that I have been working on with the group of people for the last couple of years on lighting design for low vision. L ighting is an extremely complicated issue, and e ven morecomplicated when you factor in vision loss. A nd along

with lighting comes often glare, and to

-- I personally am a bit of a

-- I am at a bit of a loss as to how

-- how to regulate the lighting in a vehicle in a manner that would result in a meani ngful benefit. A nd not all lighting is the same in terms of how it

-- how it affects people. W hat really matters is how much light gets to your eye not how much light is on the surface. A nd that is a whole other discussion. I llumination and the rest of it.
>> Marsha, this is Gary. J ust

-- I know you have shared with me over the years you often if you have something in your built environment regulation that isn't required, it's often not the best place to try and move that ball down the court by requiri ng something in like let's say a vehicle requirement that you don't even require in the built environment. F rom that perspective it seems that the menus and directories and things like that would be better left to, you know, to general ADAAG before you wo uld try to do it in a Braille vehicle application is that kind of what you are saying? >> MARSHA MAZZ: It is kind of what I am saying. Also, when you realize that, you know, lighting in the building changes throughout the day. B ut it doesn'tchange anywh ere near as rapidly or as it would in a

vehicle. F or example, a vehicle may go under an overpass. I t may go under a bridge. I t may go into a tunnel. I t may be passing a forested area with gaps in the forest. You have that strobing. You have

-- you kn ow there is all kinds of things that are going to impact lighting within a vehicle external forces. You know, not just the internal. B ut the external issues. T hat are more complicated than they are in a building. We haven't solved lighting for building s yet. A nd this draft guideline that I referred you to is really just

-- it's a very first start, I suspect it's going to be very controversial. It has been on the committee that I have been on. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: I wouldn't be surprised if i t wasn't controversial throughout the entire lighting design community. >> Thank you. >> JIM PECHT: Okay. T his is Jim Pecht what is the committee's pleasure on menus and direct trees you don't want them required as ADAAG or want some level of visual requi rement or what is the committee's pleasure? >> This is Lisa again. M arsha started off saying ourchair had some feelings about this.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: She does.
>> And I am wondering if we should get her input before

-- maybe

-- from everything I have heard here Gee it sounds like this would be better handled by ADA by having something that David suggested. You know, having a piece of paper as things change. B ut I don't know what her concerns were unless you do Marsha? >> MARSHA MAZZ: I think her concern was simply she doesn't know what is on offer, and there isn't a solution right now. I mean, her vision is very similar to mine. So, we have known each other for a while. I can say that. Y ou know, I totally and completely avoid all eateries I don't know what is on offer. I don't want have to order one of the two things that I heard the people in front of me in line order. A nd oftentimes the servers don't even speak much English. S o, explaining yourself is always difficult. I think that if the facility were to offer, you know, Braille menu and a large print menu that would make all of us pretty darn happy. O r if they would even take the time to tell you what is on offer. But, unfortunately, there is usually a line they don't want to do that. A nd they

-- then you enter into this little debate with the person you tell them you can't semenknew. S o could they tell you what is on the menu they

say what do you want.
>> Right. (LAUGHTER) >> Here is a question: W hat about something that did live on the side of the cafe that didn't tell you the monthly things have changed but tote you the universe of things that you could have. Y ou know, we have breakfast, and we typically have some bread and some coffee and that kind of general things would that be
eve n
-- or you already

-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: Those are the things we all know they have. Everybody have Coke or Pepsi and coffee or tea. S o, I mean, you know what we don't know whether I am going to get a Miller lite or Heineken. >> That's the question for me if there is any way to do that or have somebody make it programmatic as an ADA thing. To me trains is different than the rest of the world because you are a captive audience. I f

-- if you are outside in the rest of the world you could say this restaurant is terrible people won't talk to me. B ut another restaurant has somebody I can deal with. O n a train you are trapped. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes.>> and you don't have any choice. S o, to me that's a

reason for wanting to put something permanent but it's not a reason if it's not

-- as we were saying if it's not helpful let's try a different way of doing it. >> This is Blair again. M aybe it's one of the things where we obviously are all thinking about what is right now, because that's what is in front of us. B ut every other day there is some new thing that is coming out in the electronic world. I will give an example. Years ago we looked at having a recorded information card that was almost like a card that you buy at hallmark you open them up it sings to you w hatever. Actually a much larger thing that would give you a boat load of information about a particular train in this case it was the Acela. T hat was all a canned message. M aybe we can't address it now. B ut is it something we could say because we are looking at the future and at new cars there is some sort of the auxiliary message system that you could tap into? I know we are looking at an on board information system that may have a plethora of information available people could tap into. I t would
re quire a person has a device that lets them do that but maybe that begins to be a realistic way of solving some of the problems that where things change so often.>> MARSHA MAZZ: Can you talk a little bit more what

you mean by on board information system? >> Blair: T his is purely blue sky, but if I have my smartphone and I have a phone that's almost smart it's not there yet. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: I am too cheap to buy a smartphone if I buy a smartphone one of the things it lets me do when I am on the t rain, and you know Amtrak has WI/FI now and we are looking to do more

-- better on board information system. I f I can go on to my smartphone and pick a spot, and it says welcome to Amtrak train 151. A nd I want to see the cafe options or if I push a numbe r it gives me audible information push 1 cafe menu push 2 for station stops on this route. T hose can be canned information perhaps that says that we have breakfast offering ham and cheese sandwich and then literally read down through the menu or build is menu for breakfast push 1 lunch push 2 alcohol push 3. Something like that. T hen it would read you the listed and tell you what is there. I have to believe that we are not too far from having that kind of capability and maybe it could be done now, I don 't know. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I love the thought. I t would benice if it had one of those the ability to see where you

are in your trip too. I n other words, what is the next stop that you are coming to. A nd how far along are you, et cetera. >> Blair: O ur WI /FI system now it's probably a visual thing when you log into it, or try to go online and if you are on our hot spot, it shows you, gives you a map and shows you where your train is if you watch the map you see your little dot on the map moving. A long wit h all of the other things that are around it. A s I say, I have to believe we are not too far from being able to do something as maybe as radical as that. B ut I don't know. >> LISA FAIRHALL: Even if you put your daily menus online and people could pull th em down on their phones. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Yep.
>> Blair: T here you go. A nd since it is typically not a daily thing we have some situations where there is daily changes, but very few. I t's typically like a 30

- day or 60

- day or 90

- day cycle where this is th e menu. >> LISA FAIRHALL: That reduces the burden on

-- on the staff then. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Yeah. B lair: R ight.>> MARSHA MAZZ: Assuming that people, you know,

know where it is and assuming that they

-- the online site is accessible so when you use whatever device you are using, you know, your own personal device iPad or PDA or cell phone or whatever it is, with, you know, your own accessibility options programmed in and on board, if you can get to that site and if you can navigate it that would be wonderful. D o you have any idea whether the site now is accessible to, say, 508 standards? >> Blair: I would have to default to Gary on that. >> I'm sorry, I was multitasking. >> MARSHA MAZZ: The Amtrak site.
>> The on board? I f it was compliant to 508? >> MARSHA MAZZ: I just wanted to know whether it's accessible and I throughout

-- I threw out 508 as a possible benchmark.
>> I don't know about that I don't know the folks doing that looked to 508. I think for the on board stuff, it will be, I believe it's com pliant to the current like size and contrast and stuff like that. >> MARSHA MAZZ: They are not looking at WCAG it is compliant to WCAG 2.0? >> Gary: I can't speak on that I have to look at the meeting minutes.>> MARSHA MAZZ: That would be good to know

.

>> Gary: T he other part Blair was talking is very exciting. T he technology is advancing so fast we should be able to in the near future, allow folks access to the raw data that's powering those signs and now you know, if you are doing like 30 minutes o ut from Baltimore, or something like that, or even you want to tell somebody that an elevator is out, you would be able to do that hopefully on board the vehicle with the using the message signs but make the data available so you can sit using your smartph one and in whatever tech

-- form that you need the data whether it be text or audio you could pump it right into your smartphone. And then you could do really cool things down the road apiece of course. You could do proximity sensor locations and have so mebody with the smartphone in the pocket with ear piece in it as they get close to the restroom it could tell them you are at the restroom there are all kinds of cool stuff that can be done in the future. >> MARSHA MAZZ: So, just to kind of close the loop on this, if there is an on board information system, it certainly should be accessible. B ut I am not aware of any DOT regulations currently that address that, although, it's possible that they do in some way. Y ouknow, in which I am not aware.

>> Yes, yo u know Marsha that's such a great point. I would answer it two ways. I would say what Chris raised earlier is why that's so relevant. D OT has made it very firm that anybody has to go back into basically ADAAG but 2006 U.S. DOT and look where else someth ing like the character size and things like that so at least we are going to get that stuff right. Even on the EMS signs. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Right.
>> So the lack of existing regulations for that stuff is not as big an issue as it would have been for not doi ng that. I n addition DOT requires if you provide visual you shall provide audio. S o, they have closed the loop on the issue that we have had on ADAAG which I think is fantastic. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. I was thinking more in terms of the web

-- you know t he intranet or Internet that you know, is made available through online which really doesn't have a corollary in the ADA. I t does in 508. C ertainly there is a standard out there WCAG 2.0AA which could be imposed by somebody not by us

-- >> That's a great question. A nd I will

-- I will try totrack that down. I know that folks are looking at some

of that stuff. W hat I think David had mentioned earlier, is really more of the on board communications system. But I don't think he was talking about like the access to the WI/FI and whether or not we have gone that deep into it. S o I am

-- because I am not aware of anything along those lines for the WI/FI stuff. >> MARSHA MAZZ: The only reason I am even pursuing this is that I think that if members of the
com mittee had some

-- some sense that accessibility can be provided through another mechanism maybe not regulated by the guidelines, they might be more comfortable not requiring as much tactile and visual signage if you will, and using signage in the conventi onal sense on board.
>> Yeah, that's a great point. I agree with you. I think, to me, I don't know how we regulate it but back to the menus for a moment. I mean, with the technology being what it is, why couldn't we have some type of a electronic means where if you are in the cafe car you want an audible menu, you could have the Amtrak app or the whatever app you know from some other rail provider, and be able to pump that into your iPhone or Samsung or whatever and get it. T he technology isthere, we j ust have to

-- I am not so sure it's a

regulation piece. B ut to your point, would it really make sense to push for a directory or menu to be made accessible if in fact we could do something like that that would probably be a whole lot more beneficial. H aving said that to your point about the size of the menu that is there why not have a little bit bigger menu so everybody can see the thing, you know? T hat kind of makes sense too. B ut then where are you going to put it. I really liked your thoughts on l ighting. I couldn't agree with you more. I like the fact that we don't regulate lighting in the ADAAG, because I think it's just too difficult to quantify. At least at this point what you would require. A nd then if you try to cut and paste that an a rai l car you are just spot on. Y ou could go from sunshine in your eyes and you are dying you can't even see, to now you are in a hole. A nd it's just like black. You can't see anything. It's so dark. B am you come out the other end and it's really, really bright. S o, how could you

-- how would you even
-- anyway I appreciate your thoughts on that. I think you are spot on, on the lighting aspects. >> This is Lisa

. I didn't know about the on board information system and it sounds really wonderful. I ts ounds terrific for people with hearing loss as well. I f I

knew where I was on the stop I could follow it looking at my smartphone, which is a little smarter than my last phone but we are getting there. B ut that's the thing, though, is the one thing we ca n't forget is there is still people who won't have the smartphone. S o, while we may
-- I actually listening to everything sounds like menus shouldn't be something that we regulate but is there any way Marsha, we could say some things should be taken up by other

-- you know, to me I don't want to let it go. I would like to have

-- let it go. I would like somebody to look at it from the ADA saying this is programmatic we should give out menus and look at what technology should do something that we don't have
-- it's not in our scope but somebody else might. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes, I think that you can do that you can certainly have, for example, in your rationale for not regulating it, you would say, you know, we are electing not to regulate this because of the difficulties associated with making it accessible in this environment. However, you know, we believe that the Department of Transportation should do X, Y and Z. A nd that's fine you are allowed to

-- you know, they don't have to take your advice but putt ing your advice out there is certainlyone step in the right direction.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. Again, reminding everyone that we are talking about new cars, and hopefully things can be taken back to old cars where it makes sense. Could we look at

-- if I think about the way that our Amtrak cafes are right now, we have menus that occur in multiple places. A nd typically they will be

-- if you are at the counter, they are behind the attendant they are behind the person behind the counter. B ut we will also have on a wing wall or something the

-- the same basic information maybe without all of the pictures and things, a list of the items that are on the menu. S hould we say that menus should have an alternative views space that allows people t o get closer to them? I n addition to

-- so, we have a minimum

-- minimum viewing distance in addition to what we would say is, you know, maybe the typical placement for a menu? >> JIM PECHT: Blair this is Jim that is certainly an option. A nother way woul d be just to say it, if you have multiple menus, you could write the scoping in a way to say at least one menu shall meet the visual requirements. A nd don't specify which menu it is and how elaborate it has to be. I f you are requiring it tomeet the visu al requirements the visual requirements

have built into it distances, and relative to character height. S o the further away you are the bigger, the closer the smaller they can be. T hat might be a way of ting

-- doing it for dining cars at least one meets the visual requirements and leaf it up to the provider to pick the one and where they put it and to the extent of how much information they put on it. >> Okay, Jim, I think what we typically do we will have let's say six placard menus viewable from the co unter behind the attendant and then literally repeat, I think, all of that information in a listed format posted on another wall. A nd right now that's done sort of because if you are in a crowded situation you can actually see a menu long before you are i n the space. B ut if we treat that as something that addresses the visually impaired I think that's a cool thing to do. We just

-- and again, since it's

-- we are looking at new designs, you can make the arrangement of the vehicle so that it come dates th at.

-- that it accommodates that. >> This is Gary Talbot. I think that would be a great idea. A nything we could do to find out a way to maybe improve a little bit of what we have today without over con training

-- over constraining would be a great ideaon the menu idea. I don't know about the directory, I

don't know where that would fit. F or sure with the menu, I would think. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Do you have directories on vehicles? >> Gary: I am not aware of any directly. A re you Blair? >> Blair: Well, directories as

-- the only thing that I can think of is where we looked at the signs you know that direct you to where certain rooms are in the sleeping cars, that kind of thing. >> JIM PECHT: That's directional not directory.
>> Thanks Jim, that's how I t hought those were. I wasn't envisioning those being a directory. F or a pure directory like 4th floor 5th floor 2nd floor kind of stuff I

-- I am not aware of any anywhere. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I can't imagine what purpose is would serve.
>> Gary: Yes, exactl y. >> JIM PECHT: Is the committee good with this? Hearing crickets, I am going to strike the word and directories and leave it menus. I am going to put a big X in the visual requirement but put a note that says at least one menu.>> MARSHA MAZZ: You have stricken employees.

>> JIM PECHT: I am just talking about menus. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Does that

-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: You need to summarize you have 8 minutes. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Different summary. O kay. T he other thing we did

-- let me m ake sure that's what I am going to do for menus is everybody good with that? H earing no dissent we are done. A ll right. T he other thing that we did is we are going to say employee only signs are not required to meet any accessibility requirements. What we sort of talked about in the last meeting was the directional signs should meet the, including directional exit signs should meet visual requirements and designation signs for spaces including exit signs at the exit itself have to meet the tactile and v isual requirements. T hat's sort of where we are to date. A ll right? S o, in the last few minutes, can we talk about the timeframe for next meeting, when you want to have it? When it good for you guys scheduling and that sort of thing? Paul is handing me something saying the next communication meeting is Thursday afternoon on April10 so never mind we will see you there. A nd continue

this discussion. I f everybody is good with that. >> Jim, if I could let folks know we are doing our big bridge plate anal ysis on board the train on April the 9th and many of you Marsha included Melissa is going to be there in DC and few other folks from staff. A nybody else that wants to join us it would be a great opportunity to walk through a

-- we will have a three

- car, a nd you can walk through and see the different rooms and spaces and stuff like that. We have two coach cars and cafe car so you can go in the cafe car and say where would the sign go and stuff like that. I t might be a really cool opportunity.
>> This is L isa what time of day are you doing that? >> We are try to go get folks there 8:30 in the morning star light room on April 9 and David Nelson and other folks will escort you over to, we believe track 19 and 20, and we will have our own private train we will have I believe a new low co

- motive and two regional cars with a cafe car in the middle. Regional cars might be accessible and connected to the cafe car that will give us three restrooms three accessible restrooms on an accessible row at least train acces sible route. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Gary, the purpose of this wholething is to look at the new technology that you are

considering to assist in boarding and alighting.
>> That's correct I was just thinking if folks are in the area and they want to just see a cou ple of cars where you would have the ability to go in, take a look. You wouldn't have to go with

-- with us if you didn't want to because we are doing bridge plate testing. T he cars sit there 8:30 until right about 10 a.m. we will pull out and head to Ph iladelphia to do the testing. I f you wanted to go on board the train and see like the different signs that Blair is talking about. O r the different space or something like that might be a good opportunity if you are local. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Have you gotten any nibbles for the centers for independent living? >> I have not. C alvin sent a note to me, and David Knight wasn't aware I sent a note to David he has three or four folks there. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I sent it to DOJ weeks ago.
>> I tried to follow up on th at. I said no I shouldn't have done that I apologize. T here was a person that contacted me that is coming and I did not get a chance to read his E

- mail to find out exactly what organization I bet you he was from CIL.>> MARSHA MAZZ: Great.

>> Right now we have about 17 wheeled mobility users I think and hoping for more. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Fabulous. >> This is Lisa again if I wanted to join you where would I meet you? >> Come to the star light room

-- if you

-- I am sure I can get your E

- mail through David Ne lson, if you come to the star light room it's over by the east hall, we will send some more exact information on that before the event. A nd just get there like 8:30 quarter to 9 something like that. L ike I said you could either walk through the train and see what you wanted to see visually or just, you know, the spaces and stuff because you wouldn't have to worry about being on a revenue train it's a nonrevenue train. I f you want to go with us that's fine as well.
>> No I was just thinking of just doing a walk through and that kind of thing that would be great.
>> That would be a great opportunity. J ust keep in mind, these two cars are going to be really accessible. Because they have removed about 2/3 of the seats in each of the two cars to make it more accessible for us so we can add a whole bunch of folks with disability to goon the trip.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I hope I don't have to stand all the way to Philadelphia. >> They left 6 rows of seats in the car and seating in cafe car I promise that you will hav e a space. (LAUGHTER) >> Chris: ( inaudible) (LAUGHTER) >> Just for you Chris there will be a disco ball I will take my little mini boom box. (LAUGHTER) >> Chris: I 'm sorry I have a hard time getting (inaudible) I am sure Marsha will catch me up on what I miss.
>> Absolutely. We made several really good decisions, I think, Chris. >> Okay. G ood. J im all right folks this is Jim Pecht two minutes to our closing time I am going to say thank you very much for coming to the meeting, and we are
now adjourned. >> Thank you. >> Have a great day.
>> This concludes today's conference the lines will disconnect at this time.(End of meeting.)