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89–510 2015

[H.A.S.C. No. 113–117] 

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE 

REVIEW OF THE PRISONER OF WAR/ 

MISSING IN ACTION (POW/MIA) 

COMMUNITY AND THE RESTRUCTURING 

OF THESE AGENCIES AS PROPOSED BY 

THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

JULY 15, 2014 
(II) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina, Chairman 

WALTER B. JONES, North Carolina 

JOSEPH J. HECK, Nevada 

AUSTIN SCOTT, Georgia 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

CHRISTOPHER P. GIBSON, New York 

KRISTI L. NOEM, South Dakota 

SUSAN A. DAVIS, California 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania 

MADELEINE Z. BORDALLO, Guam 

DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa 

NIKI TSONGAS, Massachusetts 

CAROL SHEA-PORTER, New Hampshire 

CRAIG GREENE, Professional Staff Member 

DEBRA WADA, Professional Staff Member 

COLIN BOSSE, Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF HEARINGS 

2014 

Page 

HEARING: 

Tuesday, July 15, 2014, Government Accountability Office Review of the 

Prisoner of War/Missing in Action (POW/MIA) Community and the Restructuring of These Agencies as Proposed by the Department of Defense ............ 1 

APPENDIX: 

Tuesday, July 15, 2014 ............................................................................................ 17 

TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2014 

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE REVIEW OF THE PRISONER 

OF WAR/MISSING IN ACTION (POW/MIA) COMMUNITY AND THE RESTRUCTURING OF THESE AGENCIES AS PROPOSED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 

STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Davis, Hon. Susan A., a Representative from California, Ranking Member, 

Subcommittee on Military Personnel ................................................................. 2 

Wilson, Hon. Joe, a Representative from South Carolina, Chairman, Subcommittee on Military Personnel ........................................................................ 1 

WITNESSES 

Lumpkin, Hon. Michael D., Assistant Secretary of Defense, Special Operations/Low-Intensity Conflict, Performing the Duties of Under Secretary 

of Defense for Policy, Department of Defense ................................................... 5 

Morin, Hon. Jamie M., Director, Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation, 

Department of Defense ........................................................................................ 3 

APPENDIX 

PREPARED STATEMENTS: 

Lumpkin, Hon. Michael D. .............................................................................. 32 

Morin, Hon. Jamie M. ...................................................................................... 22 

Wilson, Hon. Joe ............................................................................................... 21 

DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD: 

Statement for the Record by Hon. Glenn Thompson ..................................... 47 

WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING THE HEARING: 

[There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.] 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING: 

[There were no Questions submitted post hearing.] 

(1) 

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE REVIEW OF 

THE PRISONER OF WAR/MISSING IN ACTION (POW/ 

MIA) COMMUNITY AND THE RESTRUCTURING OF 

THESE AGENCIES AS PROPOSED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL, Washington, DC, Tuesday, July 15, 2014. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in room 

2212, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Joe Wilson (chairman 

of the subcommittee) presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE WILSON, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE 

ON MILITARY PERSONNEL 

Mr. WILSON. Ladies and gentlemen, the hearing will come to 

order. I would like to welcome everyone to the Subcommittee on 

Military Personnel of the House Armed Services Committee, as we 

hear from witnesses on the planned reorganization of the POW/ 

MIA [Prisoner of War/Missing in Action] accounting community of 

the Department of Defense. 

Almost a year ago, this subcommittee held a hearing on GAO’s 

[Government Accountability Office] report on their review of the 

Department’s efforts to meet the 2010 mandate to identify 200 

missing persons per year by 2015, and Dr. Paul Cole’s report entitled ‘‘JPAC’s [Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command] Information 

Value Chain, the Identification of Missing Persons.’’ 

The GAO report, and I hope our committee’s interest in oversight 

on this issue, became what I believe is a catalyst for change. Reviews by the Office of the Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation and the Office of the Inspector General began shortly after the 

hearing; on 31 March 2014 Secretary Hagel announced the reorganization of the accounting community based on the recommendation of the reviews. 

Today, the subcommittee will continue its oversight on this important issue to hear from our witnesses on how they came to the 

conclusions and recommendations announced by the Secretary and 

the way ahead for the reorganization for the POW/MIA accounting 

community. 

The men and women both in uniform and DOD [Department of 

Defense] civilian personnel who perform this mission are very dedicated to this effort and have done incredible work in the past. I am 

confident they will continue as professionals as the Department 

moves forward with these efforts. 
2 

I am hopeful to move forward with this endeavor, as I firmly believe that we as a nation owe the proper emphasis, resources, and 

priority of effort to account for our missing persons from past conflicts and to bring closure to their family members. 

I would like to welcome our distinguished witnesses. Dr. Jamie 

Morin, newly confirmed within the last month. 

Dr. MORIN. Two weeks, sir. 

Mr. WILSON. Two weeks—even better. So thank you and best 

wishes. Director of the Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation 

and DOD is so good on acronyms, CAPE. 

Mr. Michael D. Lumpkin, Assistant Secretary of Defense, Special 

Operations/Low-Intensity Conflict, performing the duties of Under 

Secretary of Defense for Policy, Department of Defense. 

Mrs. Davis, do you have any opening remarks? 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Wilson can be found in the Appendix on page 21.] 

STATEMENT OF HON. SUSAN A. DAVIS, A REPRESENTATIVE 

FROM CALIFORNIA, RANKING MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

MILITARY PERSONNEL 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also want to extend a 

warm welcome to Secretary Lumpkin and to Dr. Morin. Thank you 

for being with us today. 

Last year this subcommittee held a hearing that highlighted the 

dysfunction and the challenges that plagued the POW/MIA accounting community within the Department of Defense. As a result, Secretary Hagel took his responsibility head-on here and 

asked Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations and 

Low-Intensity Conflict Lumpkin to lead this effort to resolve the 

many issues that confront this community. 

The Secretary proposed to establish a single defense agency to 

consolidate and coordinate the vast activities that fall under the 

purview of the POW/MIA accounting community. The subcommittee supported this effort and included language in the fiscal 

year 2015 NDAA [National Defense Authorization Act] to create a 

more effective and efficient organization to be able to meet the goal 

of identifying at least 200 sets of remains a year by 2015. 

While the consolidation and the establishment of a defense agency is a positive first step, it is important for us to understand what 

the final agency will be comprised of; how will the transformation 

and the consolidation of activities, personnel, and resources be accomplished, and what the timeline for these actions will be; and 

what is really a fair timetable for the Department to accomplish 

the proposal, and for the Congress and the American people, particularly the families and loved ones who have a service member 

who is missing or unaccounted for, to be able to hold the agency 

accountable for the increased transparency that the agency of 

course is saying that this will bring about, the transparency of the 

reporting and certainly the identifications as well. 

Mr. Chairman, I know we have a moral responsibility to ensure 

that those who are missing and remain unaccounted for are returned home to their family and their loved ones. I happen to see 

an article just now where a granddaughter is searching for a 
3 

grandfather who died back in 1952 and that’s not unusual. We 

know that that occurs. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses and having an open 

and a productive dialogue today as we move forward to fundamentally change the POW/MIA accounting community. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Ranking Member Susan Davis. 

I now ask unanimous consent that Representative Richard 

Nugent and Tim Walz be allowed to ask questions during the hearing. Without objection, so ordered. 

I also ask unanimous consent that Representative Glenn Thompson be allowed to submit a statement for the record. Without objection, so ordered. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix on 

page 47.] 

Mr. WILSON. Dr. Morin, we will begin with your testimony. As 

a reminder, please keep your statements to 5 minutes. We have 

your written statements as well as Mr. Lumpkin’s. 

Additionally, very likely we will be interrupted with votes. We 

will recess and then come back. And then each member who would 

like would have the opportunity for a 5-minute question period. So 

thank you very much. Dr. Morin. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMIE M. MORIN, DIRECTOR, COST ASSESSMENT AND PROGRAM EVALUATION, DEPARTMENT OF 

DEFENSE 

Dr. MORIN. Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Davis, thank you very much for 

the invitation to testify today and for the committee’s continued 

commitment to ensuring that our families of service members have 

the opportunity to get closure for those who remain missing from 

our Nation’s conflicts. 

The Department of Defense works very hard to ensure that we 

seek and recover the remains of our fallen heroes, and that we can 

bring that sort of closure to the families. We are able to do so 

thanks to the authorities and the appropriations that the Congress 

provides for that purpose. And so we very much appreciate the 

committee’s continued support for that effort and engagement on 

the reform process in this area. 

The Department very clearly has a solemn duty in this area to 

provide our families of the fallen with the fullest possible accounting. As you mentioned, in 2009, the Congress passed legislation requiring the Department to increase its personnel accounting capability, and set the goal of accounting for 200 missing personnel annually beginning in 2015. 

Despite a very strong commitment from the leadership of the Department and the hard work of many dedicated men and women 

across the accounting community, when the Cost Assessment and 

Program Evaluation Office looked at the community’s progress towards this metric, it was clear that fundamental reform was going 

to be required to put us on a path to achieve the legislative goal. 

So in my testimony today, what I would like to do is update the 

committee on CAPE’s recommendations for reforming an imperfect 

system. As this committee is very much aware, in July of last year, 

the GAO study laid out in a very strong report the fact that a frag-
4 

mented organization structure undermined the Department’s ability to accomplish this mission. 

Deputy Secretary Carter tasked my office with responsibility to 

assess the efficiency and the effectiveness of the personnel accounting community’s structure and their processes, and to evaluate 

whether the 200-accounted-for metric was a sufficient one for observing and evaluating the community. 

If I can just summarize in capsule form, our study confirmed 

many of the findings of the GAO report and extended on them in 

some respects. We determined number one, that the Department 

should fundamentally reform the organizational structure of the 

personnel accounting community, and should do so by unifying the 

Defense Prisoner of War and Missing Personnel Office, which we 

call DPMO, and the Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command, which 

we call JPAC, into a single new civilian-led defense agency with a 

new name that brings together the missions. 

Second, we recommended that the Department add a medical examiner as the lead authority for establishing formal identification 

within the personnel accounting process. 

The third recommendation is that we rescope the activities of the 

Central Identification Laboratory and make that entity more focused and more efficient. 

And then fourth, we recommend that the Department complement the annual accounted-for number goal with a broader 

range of appropriate metrics that really reflect the full range of efforts that are executed by the accounting community to include 

many activities caring for families of those lost. And our report includes a list of metrics for possible consideration. 

So in addition to those main recommendations, CAPE also identified a number of process improvements within the personnel accounting organizations. First among these, to improve transparency 

by categorizing cases for all of our conflicts as either active pursuit 

cases or non-recoverable cases, and engaging with and informing 

family members of the case status and the reasons for categorization. 

A second of these additional recommendations, and there are several more that I won’t enumerate right now but are in the written 

report, is to establish a standard case management tool, really a 

database, that is accessible across the personnel accounting community, has accessibility for family members as well, and that includes all the appropriate restrictions and controls to protect data 

that needs to be protected, but also maximize transparency. 

Our assessment is that these changes, along with many others 

that are identified in the report, will, if implemented, improve business practices and mission effectiveness throughout the community. And my team that worked on this report is closely collaborating with Mr. Lumpkin’s team in the implementation effort. 

Bottom line here, in the report last year, GAO stated top-level 

leadership attention is needed to address the personnel accounting 

issues. My assessment is that is exactly what is happening. The 

CAPE study team presented findings directly to Secretary Hagel. 

Secretary Hagel listened to those findings and that informed his 

decisions based on Mr. Lumpkin’s recommendations to reorganize 

the community and improve its business processes. 
5 

Again, we are pressing forward on this effort. We very much appreciate the committee and the Congress’ continued support. I 

wanted to just close by thanking the excellent CAPE staff, a few 

of whom are in the room right now, who worked on this effort, and 

I think produced actionable, concrete, real recommendations for the 

Secretary and Mr. Lumpkin that will help the Department to deliver on this important mission. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Morin can be found in the Appendix on page 22.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much. What a positive report. This 

is very unusual in Congress and—to see it coming together with 

common sense, so thank you very much. 

And Mr. Lumpkin, we are having votes, and so 5 minutes, thank 

you and then we will recess and come right back. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL D. LUMPKIN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, SPECIAL OPERATIONS/LOW–INTENSITY CONFLICT, PERFORMING THE DUTIES OF UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR POLICY, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 

Mr. LUMPKIN. Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member Davis, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for your steadfast support for our service members and civilians who are missing 

from our Nation’s past conflicts and their families who wait for 

news of their loved ones. 

I respectfully request my written testimony be included for the 

record. The authorities and the appropriations that Congress has 

provided the Department of Defense have allowed us to continue to 

recover the remains of our fallen service members and provide answers to their families. 

From Dr. Miller’s departure in early January to late June, when 

Christine Wormuth was confirmed as Under Secretary of Defense, 

in addition to serving as the Assistant Secretary of Defense for 

Special Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict, I also performed the 

duties of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. 

In this capacity, Secretary Hagel tasked me with leading the Department’s restructuring of its personnel accounting for past conflicts to more effectively account for our missing personnel and ensure their families receive timely and accurate information. The 

Department is committed to improving the services we provide 

families. 

The Department of Defense conducts accounting of the personnel 

missing from past conflicts to record and honor the deeds and sacrifices of our service members and the civilian personnel, and the 

legacy of the loss endured by their families. 

The missing person is the purpose behind what we do. The families are our focus and better service is our goal. The Department 

recognizes that we cannot recover remains in all cases. In all cases, 

however, we have a duty to provide designated family members the 

fullest possible accounting for their loved ones. Change, even for 

the better, is difficult. 

I appreciate this committee’s support for reform, and I look forward to continuing to work with you. The Secretary’s decisions to 

change how the Department conducts personnel accounting address 
6 

deficiencies in process, workplace culture, and organizational structure. 

The decisions are based on dispassionate analytical assessments 

and informed by feedback from families and here in the U.S. Congress. Recognizing that to fulfill this commitment to the fullest possible accounting the Department of Defense must do better, in 

March Secretary Hagel directed sweeping changes to how the Department of Defense operates in this area. His decision was based 

on careful consideration reviewed from GAO and from CAPE, independent assessments, comments from DOD Inspector General, veterans service organizations, families, and the workforce. 

Secretary Hagel directed the establishment of a new defense 

agency that combines the functions of the DPMO, the Joint POW/ 

MIA Accounting Command, select functions of the Air Force Life 

Science Equipment Laboratory. He directed that an Armed Forces 

medical examiner will be the single identification authority, making the process for past and current identifications the same, and 

overseas scientific operations in the new agency. The Department 

will work with Congress to realign funds for this mission into a single budget allowing for greater flexibility and availability to respond more effectively. 

To improve the search, recovery, and identification process, the 

Department will implement a centralized database and case management system containing all missing service personnel’s information. The Department is also exploring options to make this data 

more easily and readily available to families. 

Importantly, Secretary Hagel directed the Department to develop 

proposals for expanding public-private partnerships in identifying 

our missing to leverage the capabilities of organizations outside of 

government that responsibly work to account for our missing. 

Consolidating the organizations that work on past conflict personnel accounting is necessary, but not singularly sufficient for 

change we seek for families of our missing service members. 

The culture of personnel accounting and processes must change 

as well. The Secretary’s decision to increase public-private partnership, make a medical examiner the identification authority and director of scientific functions, and focus on families as the customer, 

are emblematic of the cultural and process changes that we are 

seeking to achieve. 

Some of these decisions, particularly on the role of the medical 

examiner, are significant departures for how we have done business in the past. Implementation will require continued support for 

change from within the Department and from Congress. These decisions, however, are deliberate and backed by years of solid analysis from within the government and independent bodies. 

To build on our strengths and change for the cultures, structures, 

and processes, we must take a rational approach, not one based on 

emotion, personal agendas, or bias. The Department will sustain 

and further develop the strengths of our past conflict accounting 

processes, notably, scientific independence and validity. 

The Secretary of Defense has a longstanding personal interest in 

this important mission, and feels compelled to improve the Department’s operations and how we support it. I have welcomed the time 

I spent working on this noble mission and have appreciated work-
7 

ing with the committee and others in Congress to more effectively 

account for our missing personnel and ensure their families receive 

timely and accurate information. 

I do thank you for your continued support and look forward to 

your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Lumpkin can be found in the Appendix on page 32.] 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Lumpkin. We will now recess and 

when we return, we will have a 5-minute questioning period. I 

want to thank in particular Craig Greene who will be monitoring 

5 minutes. He himself has been a great resource working with just 

great capability on the issues of POW/MIA, so we’re very fortunate 

to have Craig Greene for everyone to call on. 

We are in recess. 

[Recess.] 

Mr. WILSON. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to call the Subcommittee on Military Personnel of the House Armed Services back 

to order relative to issues of POW/MIA. 

We now will begin with questions from persons, indeed we have 

been joined by Congressman Rich Nugent of Florida, delighted to 

have him here. And I will begin first. 

First, again, Craig Greene will be maintaining the time, including me. 

I would like to point out that one of the most meaningful experiences I have had in serving in Congress is to visit a recovery site 

40 miles outside of Hue in Vietnam to see the dedication of the personnel, American and Vietnamese, for the recovery of remains of 

two pilots on an F–4A on the side of a hillside which went down, 

which is very inspiring to me, and I just want that to be the case. 

Equally though, I was concerned the letter by Congressman 

Glenn Thompson, he has a report here that we will be giving to 

you, and I hope there is a response back, concerning the case of 

Major Lewis P. Smith III, who is missing in a plane crash in Laos 

and he was—the site was on a list for recovery, but in the meantime, a dam has been built. And the waters of the dam now cover 

the site. Certainly to me, that should have been an issue that 

should have given expedited interest for the recovery, but we will 

have this letter for you and for the family of Major Smith. I would 

really like to see your response. 

So at this time, Mr. Lumpkin, before making your recommendation to the Secretary, how much consensus did you have among the 

accounting community? And how has the Department—has the Department finished the implementation plan? And if so, do you have 

a copy of the implementation plan? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. Thank you very much for the question. As we were 

doing the initial assessment based on when tasked by the Secretary in looking at both the GAO report, the CAPE report, as well 

as numerous meetings with veterans service organizations, families, members of this committee and staff, and over on the Senate 

as well, I would say that it was unanimous consent that change 

was needed. And we worked through the different issues and proposals and socialized the potential possibilities for change and 

where change was needed and the important aspects that need to 

be changed. 
8 

I think that the most important piece that we came to conclusion, and this is kind of a business perspective, is that who is the 

customer here? And the customer was realized that we hadn’t been 

focused on the families as much as we could. And so, what we have 

done is we have realigned. I think that was the central theme that 

everybody that was absolutely could get behind, was that we need 

to focus on the families as the customer because the missing service member can’t speak for their case. 

And because of the deep concern with the families, I think that 

is the underlying piece that everybody agreed upon. And then how 

we built it and the way to organize and make the recommendations. There was general consent, and some of them we had to 

work through. But I would say generally there was consent across 

the board. 

Now, as far as the timeline and what that plan looks like, we 

had 30 days to put together what needed to be changed, and now 

we are figuring out some of the mechanics of how. The implementation plan is not completed as of yet. I will tell you it is broken into 

three different principal phases. The first is unifying the mission 

set for the agency, the single agency as we consolidate these different pieces. The second piece is the process. The one thing as I 

mentioned in my opening statement is that we need to focus on is 

a singular process for all cases of those that are missing and unaccounted. 

And then the final piece is the people and how we are going to 

properly align the people in order to support the mission, because 

we have a tremendous and highly skilled workforce that is passionate about this mission. And we need to make sure we remove 

those barriers that have impeded them from being successful, 

largely bureaucratic barriers. Secretary Hagel is adamant about 

cutting bureaucracy whenever possible and enabling the accounting 

community team to do the mission at hand. 

So our timelines that we are looking at, is we are looking at an 

initial operating capability of a new agency, at the beginning—January 1st, 2015, and to have a fully operational capable agency on 

January 1st, 2016. This may seem like a protracted timeline, but 

some of these changes do require, in order to create the single 

agency, are legislative. We have to realign budgets within and we 

have to realign the workforce, and that takes time to do. 

That said, while we are focused on rebuilding and reconstituting—the accounting community, it is essentially like flying an 

airplane while you are building it, because we are not going to 

cease doing the mission today. So we are going to continue to do 

the mission today while we are creating this new accounting agency. 

Mr. WILSON. This is very encouraging, as you say change needed, 

that is impressive to me without recrimination and apparently, 

hopefully, without turf protection. And I want to thank you for addressing the issues of fragmentation. 

And indeed, Dr. Morin, the funding for this with the constraints 

on Department of Defense and the issue, particularly of sequestration, what is the status of funding? 

Dr. MORIN. So Mr. Chairman, I would divide the status of funding into two pieces. The first is the administrative or clerical task 
9 

of realigning the streams of funding. Right? So we will be standing 

up an individual organization that will bring together multiple organizations. It needs to have its own concrete, coherent stream of 

funding. The DOD Comptroller and my staff are working that issue 

to ensure that when that organization becomes operationally capable, it has got the line on the resources it needs from an administrative perspective. They also need support in areas of contracting 

and financial management and all of the other administrative 

areas necessary for them to be successful. So we are working that 

piece. 

The second question is just how many resources are applied to 

this mission. As you know, this is a mission where the Department 

has invested significant resources. The Department added additional resources after the enactment of the 200 accounted-for per 

year goal. Didn’t see very much in the way of return in terms of 

additional identifications. Obviously each identification is its own 

case, with its own details. Some come comparatively easy; others 

are the product of many, many years of work. 

But what we need to do, in my estimation and the estimation of 

the CAPE team, is focus on implementing the reorganization and 

the reforms that are laid out in the reports and the action proposal 

that Mr. Lumpkin has put together, and then assess whether that 

streamlined and more effective organization is able to deliver sufficient capability, sufficient identification, sufficient service to the 

families, in order to be deemed successful or whether the Secretary 

needs to add additional financial and human resources to get there. 

We simply don’t know how efficient that redesigned organization 

will be until we have given them a chance to stand up. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much. Keep us informed in however 

we can be of assistance. 

Ranking Member Susan Davis of California. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to both of you. 

Secretary Lumpkin, could you please within that timeframe you 

talked about, the 15 to 16, the initial work and then after 16 to 

be at full capacity, could you give us a little bit more detail about 

what that is going to look like within that initial phase, initial 

year? And do you need any additional authorities to accomplish 

this effort overall? Do you anticipate that? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. The Congress thus far, and this committee in particular, has been very supportive, with Representative Nugent 

championing the amendment for the midstream legislative proposal 

to support this realignment has been the first step for us to get 

things moving forward. 

We are also looking at a reprogramming right now for this fiscal 

year of funds, unobligated funds to go against this new agency. 

This is important for many reasons, because we are going to have 

expenses that occur in support of standing this organization, this 

new agency, up, but it also is a shot across the bow to all in the 

Department of Defense that we are at a point where we can’t turn 

back, nor are we going to turn back. It is symbolic of the Secretary’s commitment that we are with going to get this done and 

we are going to get it done right. 
10 

So, as we move forward, those are the initial steps that we have 

taken in order to get to the initial operating capability of 1 January. 

What we have done, is we have assigned a senior executive, Ms. 

Alyssa Stack, and she is working as the program executive officer 

full-time to support and build this realignment and restructuring 

of the accounting community. So she is building, she has a team 

that she has been given, she has been given resources, we have 

brought on contract support, we have brought on all—and given 

her the tools necessary to flesh out a complete schedule on what 

the timeline in order to make that fully operational capability of 1 

January 2016. 

And I would propose that quarterly, at a minimum, I come up 

and talk to you all and to keep you updated and the next—at the 

first opportunity to lay that plan out when it is completed, and 

then Alyssa and myself or a representative would come up and talk 

to you and walk you and to keep the in-progress reviews as we 

move through, because I value your insight as we move forward 

and get this restructured. 

We have an opportunity that doesn’t happen very often when you 

are in a program and that is to do kind of a control, alt, delete, 

and reset. We have the opportunity to do this, and this is the Secretary’s commitment is do it, do it right, do it well, and do it once. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. So you are not—really feel in a position 

to give us a little bit more of what is in that, but to bring it forward. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. I would like a little more time, just to—so I can 

put it in a nice tight, crisp package for you and answer all your 

questions so we are not creating more for you. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. Dr. Morin, we know the tight budget situation. There probably are—hopefully there will be a few instances 

with the consolidation where we gain some efficiencies, but on the 

other hand, you are going to need more money possibly. 

I guess what I am wondering is how you might protect some of 

these different funds that we are trying to bring together as we go 

through some more difficult budget cuts. How do you think that is 

going to play out? 

Dr. MORIN. Absolutely, Mrs. Davis. I think that is a critical question for the Department. Mr. Lumpkin referenced the reprogramming, so on behalf of my former colleagues in the comptroller 

world, that is a package that has just come to the Congress now 

a couple of days ago. There is $2.5 million in there requested to initiate activity in the new agency; prompt approval of that will let 

the process begin. So we would certainly appreciate that. 

Looking at the overall resource picture, just to keep the mag- nitude in your mind, this is—in recent years has been a $100 million-plus-per-year enterprise. So not a trivial commitment of taxpayer dollars, but not a trivial debt owed to the families of those 

who were lost in the—soldier, sailor, airmen, and marines who are 

still carried on the rolls as missing. But we do certainly have a 

clear obligation to stewardship here. 

So that is where I would like to give the work that Mr. 

Lumpkin’s plan has laid out a chance to work and see how it 

works, and at that point, assess where the resource shortfalls are. 
11 

The Department, back in the fiscal 2012 budget submission, applied very significant additional resources to this enterprise, taking 

it from what was typically a $60- to $70 million-a-year undertaking 

to, you know, well over $100 million. And so, some of those dollars 

were lost to that enterprise as a result of Budget Control Act reductions, headquarters staff reductions and the like. And some of 

it frankly, you know, for example, in the case of JPAC, the Pacific 

Command assessed that given the challenges there and the fact 

that hiring freezes were in place, that they wouldn’t be able to 

spend those resources and so reductions were made in the year of 

execution to respond to the crisis of sequestration. 

No question that those things have had an impact on the ability 

of the community to deliver. Again, our assessment is the bulk of 

the problem was an organizational structure that needed addressing. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Ms. Davis. We now proceed to Congressman Walter Jones of North Carolina. 

Mr. JONES. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. Lumpkin, 

I listened intently, or carefully, maybe is a better word, to you and 

the doctor’s comments. And mine is going to deal primarily with 

the comment you made about we realize that we need to strengthen—maybe that is my word, the public-private partnership. 

A few years ago I was contacted by Mark Noah, who is the person that put together History Flight. And Mark came to me because he was having trouble getting information from JPAC, and 

we were able to intercede, working with the Department of Defense 

to help him have access to records. 

He has—his organization since 2010, and it is a private organization, has 117 total identifications. In the year of 2014 alone, he has 

already 36 recoveries to date. I know you are talking about reorganization and hopefully making for more efficiency because of the 

families and the loved ones that never came home, but he is saying 

to me that for his recoveries it costs an average of $150,000, where 

when the Federal Government goes out to recover, it is somewhere 

around $1 million. 

I hope that Secretary Hagel, who I have great respect for, that 

you will look seriously at these entities like History Flight who 

have a reputation, who, in many ways, is doing a much better job 

than the Federal Government. And I would hope that we would 

learn from these private entities who are making such impressive 

recoveries at their own expense. 

I will tell you, I have never met a person more committed than 

Mark Noah to recovering these family—for these families, their 

loss of loved ones. I mean he flies for Federal Express, these are 

his monies. I don’t think he gets any reimbursement nor do I think 

he has asked for any from the Department of Defense. I would like 

to hear your comment, because on the fact that these—the part of 

public partnership is going to be strengthened, because to me, we 

are losing a valuable asset that could help these families bring 

home their loved ones and bring that sad chapter to an end. I 

would like to hear your comment on these private entities, specifically my comments about History Flight. 
12 

Mr. LUMPKIN. Thank you, sir. I have met Mark Noah numerous 

times. He and I are in regular contact. I have solicited his input 

as well as that of other private organizations on how they do business and where we can find opportunities to work together. 

So please understand that I have personally sat down with Mark 

on numerous occasions to find out how he is doing business and 

how we can partner to work together, both government and History 

Flight as a private organization, and organizations like History 

Flight, in order to bring home those that are missing. 

So, he has been integral to our public-private venture. And largely, he has a very good and robust investigative arm as well as an 

excavation piece that he does. But there are other organizations 

very similar that do it with great acumen and we are working with 

them to make sure we can get the relationships codified and the 

requirements, both safety requirements on the site, get the proper 

permits done, and sure we can repatriate remains in a proper fashion and all of the things that go into it. 

Some of those costs that the U.S. Government bears, whether 

History of Flight does the excavation or DOD does the excavation. 

So absolutely, I hear you loud and clear. And he is one of those 

people that we are talking to and we see as a partner. 

Mr. JONES. Mr. Lumpkin, probably some time as we move forward, I would appreciate it, maybe in September if you—that my 

office contacts you that you could come to my office and kind of 

give us an update and a briefing on these relationships, because I 

think in this tight budget time, that if we can come together and 

find the remains, but also to cut the costs, which may allow this 

government to even do more for the families. I understand—very 

quickly, I know my time is up, but there are currently about 78,000 

missing World War II veterans and about 16,000 missing from the 

Vietnam war. And if we don’t start to really make a commitment 

and it has to be from outside sources working with you in the leadership role, let me make that clear, which I would support, then 

I think we are missing a great opportunity to do God’s work. Thank 

you. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. I would welcome the opportunity to come brief you 

in September or whenever is convenient for you. Please understand 

that as we are looking to build to the capacity of 200 identifications 

a year, the public-private partnerships are part of the strategy to 

get to that capacity. 

Mr. JONES. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Jones. We now proceed 

to Congressman Austin Scott of Georgia. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to follow up 

too on what my friend, Mr. Jones, was talking about. We have 

widely accepted that it is over 80,000 service members. The number Mr. Jones just gave was right at 94,000. What number are you 

comfortable with as far as the unaccounted for? What do you believe that number—— 

Mr. LUMPKIN. I believe the operating number is in the vicinity 

of 83,000 that are unaccounted for. Please understand that a vast 

majority of those are realistically not recoverable, lost at sea. And 

so as we look at this in the future, we have to categorize people, 
13 

the missing, accordingly so we are putting the resources against 

those that are cases. 

Mr. SCOTT. Of the 83,000, we certainly understand that in these 

horrible situations somebody lost at sea that may never be recovered, how many do you believe are recoverable? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. I have seen estimations between 19- and 28,000 

are deemed to be effectively recoverable. 

Mr. SCOTT. Let’s use 25,000, kind of in the middle there. If we 

do 200 a year, that is 125 years. I think that is where, as we move 

forward—and I certainly appreciate your willingness to work with 

private sectors, again, my friend Mr. Jones was talking about, but 

that is just too long. My grandfather was a POW in World War II, 

he made it home, fortunately; some of his friends didn’t, some of 

the people that were on the plane with him when it went down 

didn’t. But if we just do the math, simple math that comes out to 

125 years. So any way we can bring in the private sector is something I think that we have to do so that these families can get closure on this issue. 

As we go forward I know the recovery, and the lab work, the repatriation, all of these things will have to continue as we go 

through the restructuring. Are you confident that you have the 

framework in place so that there is not a disruption in the process 

of the recovery while these changes move forward over the next 

several months? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. I believe we have the framework. I think we have 

built the framework and then we have the commitment of the Secretary who has made his guidance very clear to the defense enterprise that this is going to happen. So all are on board, so I feel that 

we have the tools necessary to continue operations while we stand 

up this new agency. 

Mr. SCOTT. How long do you expect it to take to stand up the 

new agency? When do you expect and when do you expect it to be 

completed? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. We expect initial operational capability on 1 January 2015, and then fully operational on 1 January 2016. 

Mr. SCOTT. While this is happening, who will handle the current 

recovery and lab work and repatriation? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. JPAC, which is the Joint POW/MIA Accounting 

Command in Hawaii, will continue to do its mission as currently 

stated. And the Defense Prisoner of War/Missing in Action Office 

here in Washington, DC, will continue to do their job, and the Life 

Science Equipment Lab in its current structure will do its job. 

So we are building something up while we are shrinking those 

capabilities down to make sure that it is seamless. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thanks for those answers. I, again, want to go back 

and reiterate the point if we have 25,000 missing in action that are 

recoverable, and we only retrieve—only achieve 200 a year in returning them to their families, that that is 125 years. And that is— 

any way we can bring the private sector in and others to help us 

increase that pace is something that I hope you will continue to 

work with us on. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the remainder of my 

time. 
14 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Congressman Scott. We now proceed to 

Congressman Rich Nugent of Florida. 

Mr. NUGENT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for allowing me to be here today in this setting. I want to thank both 

Dr. Morin and Mr. Lumpkin in regards to how you are moving forward. I think you are using a very deliberate approach in regards 

to getting this transitional person in there early, to start laying out 

where you are trying to go. I am not going to really ask any specific 

questions just because it is so early in the process. I do appreciate, 

Mr. Lumpkin, your willingness to come back here on a quarterly 

basis to apprise us as to how this process is moving along. 

And I just think any time you can merge two organizations together, I mean, there is going to be some hiccups along the way. 

It sounds like you are going to be able to continue to do the job 

that is necessary to do within the next, a little over a year, but I 

would—I guess my question falls along where Mr. Scott was going 

with 25,000-plus that we think are recoverable and that you really 

did push that number out 125 years. Most families wouldn’t even 

know—there is such a distance between the date of death, the 

missing to come up. 

How do you prioritize in regards to going out to locate remains 

to bring them back and give them the proper honors they deserve? 

How do we prioritize that? 

Mr. LUMPKIN. It is an interesting question because it is an evolving process, as you are aware, prior to 2010, recovering those missing from World War II were not part of the Department of Defense’s mission set. So that was through legislation that was created. So we had a number of 65,000-plus that were added virtually 

overnight. So from 2010, we have restructured and we have relooked at how to do business is to focus on—because you have multiple kind of lines of effort, and they are frequently based on conflict. In the sense that Southeast Asia, for example, there has been 

numerous decades of work and research done to build the intelligence and the information in order to where to go in order to do 

an excavation to recover the remains. So we have very mature case 

files. 

North Korea, and Korea, for example, North Korea there are significant access problems currently which makes it difficult for us 

to work in the field on those particular cases. In World War II now, 

since it has been added to our mission set, we are spending a large 

part of the effort building the case files to get the intelligence and 

the information of where those missing are actually at. And this is 

where many of those in the private sector have been working these 

issues for years, and have done a lot of research that we can build 

on. 

So maybe I am being optimistic here, and I like to be optimistic 

and plan for it, but I believe that we are going to see a period of 

time if we open up effectively our public-private partnership, we 

will see the opportunities with regard to identifying those missing 

from World War II increase significantly as we are able to increase 

our capabilities of research on that effort and working with publicprivate in that forum in order to harness all the great work they 

have done in the research and to build the case files. I am very op-
15 

timistic that we will build to capacity significantly in the coming 

years. 

Mr. NUGENT. I think it is great. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. If I may just finish, I said in my opening comments is that change even for the better is painful, it is difficult. 

Mr. NUGENT. It always is. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. It is. Over the years, because where we have gone 

is that we built the accounting community by bolting a piece on, 

bolting a piece on there, and it has built into this thing. All great 

people working hard to get the mission done, but I think that is 

why we are here at this point of where it is a natural inflection 

point for reorganization. 

Mr. NUGENT. And hopefully, as you do move along this reorganization is that one component or at least somebody is given the 

responsibility to work with those nongovernment organizations to 

get more bang for our buck. The whole idea is not about—to me 

it is not about the dollars, it is about bringing these folks back 

home. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. Absolutely. And closure for the families, because 

they are the center of this when it is all said and done. 

Mr. NUGENT. Absolutely. So I would hope that that is part of the 

equation, have somebody that is responsible for and is accountable 

for working with those groups to get more access. 

Mr. LUMPKIN. It is. 

Mr. NUGENT. I appreciate it. Thank you very, very much for your 

comments. I yield back. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Congressman Nugent. We would like to 

thank both of you for being here today. Again, we are all very appreciative of the competence and capabilities and the dedication of 

the people who are working on these issues. And I want to join 

with Congressman Nugent, too, to wish you well as they are 

merged, in the interest, again, of our veterans and military families 

and current service members too. 

There being no further business, we are adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:46 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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