Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime
Translation (CART) system used in the On-Board Circulation and Seating 
Subcommittee meeting #5 and is unedited, except it was corrected to note 
that since anyone may participate in subcommittee discussions, no time 
for public comment has been scheduled during the two-hour call. The CART 
system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss 
and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to 
the public on the internet during the meeting.                                        



                         x--------------------------------x

                            UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

                              RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

                         x--------------------------------x





               ***ON-BOARD CIRCULATION AND SEATING SUBCOMMITTEE***



                                 TELECONFERENCE

                                     *DRAFT*





                              Wednesday, May 7, 2014



                                    1:00 p.m.









               Location: United States Access Board
                         1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000
                         Washington, DC  20004



               Reporter:  Sandra Gartrell





                                                                           2



                              P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

                         MR. BEATTY:  Good afternoon.  This is Paul

                    Beatty.  Welcome to the fifth meeting of the

                    On-Board Circulation and Seating Subcommittee,

                    which is part of the Rail Vehicle Access

                    Advisory Committee.

                         As you know, since anyone may participate

                    in subcommittee discussions, no time for public

                    comment has been scheduled during the two-hour

                    call.  Although the CART system chat box is

                    available, to allow the cart operator to

                    perform her duties and the fact she is working

                    off site, for subcommittee participants who are

                    only using CART to participate and desire to

                    raise a question or make a statement, we

                    request you use email address RVAAC@access

                    board.gov.

                         As a reminder the next meeting for the

                    subcommittee is scheduled for June 12.  Also

                    please remember to state your name when you are

                    speaking.  Right now let's go to introductions.

                    If we can go around the room where the Access

                    Board staff is present.  Again this is Paul

                    Beatty.

                         MR. PECHT:  Jim Pecht with the Access

                                                                           3



                    Board.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Rose Marie with the access

                    Board.

                          From the teleconference I do see Sandy

                    Gartrell, court reporter, Robert Reuter, Sid

                    Goldstein, Marilyn Golden, Edward Steinfeld,

                    Jonathan Michel, David Nelson, Melissa

                    Shurland, Dave Roman, Ed Hoff, Frank Maldari,

                    Ross Capon, Christopher Hart, Dennis Cannon,

                    Glenn Millis and Terry Sosebee.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Blair Slaughter from

                    Amtrak.

                         MS. MARTIN:  Linda Martin as well.  I'm

                    not sure you can hear me.

                         MS. BUNALES:  And that it is all I have on

                    the list.

                         MR. BEATTY:  I will turn the meeting first

                    to Melissa Anderson.  Go ahead, Melissa.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  This is Melissa Anderson.

                    Thank you, everyone, for joining us today.

                    This is a kind of heads-up for where we are and

                    where we are going.  Blair and I talked a

                    little bit yesterday, but we have a lot of

                    issues we need to cover and we have been kind

                    of stagnated on just a few.  So after this

                                                                           4



                    meeting, I want everyone to go back and look at

                    our original issues list and realize we only

                    have three meetings between now and October

                    where we need to address all these issues.  We

                    have a lot of work to do so one of the things

                    we need to watch -- I know everybody is

                    passionate about this and we all like to talk

                    about the things we care so much about, but we

                    need to keep personal stories kind of to a

                    minimum to keep it moving forward.  I'm kind of

                    a bossy pants here to say keep going and go to

                    details we need to address.

                         Blair, it is all yours and thanks for

                    signing in.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Hello, everyone.  I'm

                    working remotely from Elmira, New York, today.

                    It is a little chaotic up here but we will make

                    the best of it.

                         First off, are there -- has everyone seen

                    the information that was posted from the last

                    meeting online?  I'm just curious if there are

                    any comments on the notes from the last

                    meeting?

                         MR. REUTER:  We made one change on the

                    draft recommendations during the last meeting

                                                                           5



                    and it didn't show up on the paperwork.  On the

                    interim technical requirements, Number 1, lift

                    may be vertical or chair lift.  Sometimes we

                    added in the word "platform" or "chair lift

                    style."

                         MR. CAPON:  There is a reference in one of

                    the documents to the lower level of the

                    Superliner diner not being accessible, just as

                    information.  The lower level of the Superliner

                    diner is for the crew, the kitchen personnel

                    only.  It is not open to any passengers.

                         <<<:  Thanks, Ross.  That is an employee

                    only space and I expect the FTA would have

                    questions about passengers down there as well,

                    unless they are washing dishes.

                         <<<:  Is that what happens if you don't

                    pay your bills?

                         <<<:  We tend to put you off in the middle

                    of nowhere.

                         <<<:  I wish I could work my way places on

                    the train like that.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Bear with me, folks, a

                    second.  It took me a moment to get on the

                    Internet.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Blair, you were asking for

                                                                           6



                    comments on the mockup portion that was posted

                    today.  I have a couple of comments.

                         May not be any restrictions on using any

                    facilities or features until the train is

                    stopped.  I know we talked about this a couple

                    of times, about whether it is good or not to be

                    using a lift when the train is operating.

                    Yeah, it does depend on how long you are on the

                    train but ideally I don't think it is a good

                    idea to be using an unintended lift during

                    train operations.

                         I don't know if we ever came to a decision

                    on it but I know we discussed it at least once.

                         MR. CANNON:  One of the issues that came

                    up for standards for vessels and whatnot, under

                    certain conditions of sway and whatnot,

                    elevators don't work very well in cruise ships,

                    and that may be true with this.  And I think

                    one of the things we need to know from the

                    manufacturers, especially from those who are

                    using these things like in Canada, whether they

                    can, in fact, operate during the moving train.

                    They may not be able to.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I guess my point of view is

                    not whether they are just physically capable of

                                                                           7



                    it.  Means from a safety perspective.

                         MR. CAPON:  In the case of a train, if you

                    have, as you frequently have, where heavy coal

                    trains run on BSF in Iowa, you can have a huge

                    jolt that would be much more sudden and short

                    lived than what you would experienced on a ship

                    in most cases.

                         MR. REUTER:  The alternative is when the

                    long distance train can only stop every hour or

                    so and the crew is usually pretty busy boarding

                    passengers, they don't have time to take care

                    of stuff like running the lift.  I have been on

                    that line across Montana and as a jolt it is

                    very, it is -- it is only momentary and it

                    shouldn't have any effect on operations.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  As far as those things go,

                    I think everyone makes valid points.  Where we

                    are with vertical lifts has been tried

                    obviously in a couple of instances on specialty

                    land cruise but not on a more mass application

                    that we would see if we did long distance

                    train.  And I think there is a lot of the

                    technical details that we have to sort through

                    and there is a lot of things that we don't know

                    right now but we can suppose.  And,

                                                                           8



                    unfortunately, we can suppose ourselves until

                    the cows come home.  I don't take any of those

                    comments lightly at all.  If you look at

                    extreme modes, if you look at a bus versus a

                    train versus a cruise ship, the shock force is

                    the duration.  The suddenness of movement

                    across those three modes is very different.  So

                    I can't say with any certainty how bad it will

                    be on a train.  I know it would be much worse

                    than being on a bus -- I'm sorry.  Less an

                    issue if you are doing it on a bus and much

                    less of an issue if you are on a cruise ship

                    because of the reactions times.

                         So I don't know -- I think it is going to

                    be difficult for us to nail down at this point

                    particulars of what has to be -- not just the

                    functionality, but the process, the operation

                    process of these lifts.

                         There may be -- it may be even route

                    specific.  It may be areas where it is just

                    simply not appropriate anymore than it is

                    appropriate for people to get up and walk

                    around in an airplane when the fasten seat belt

                    sign is on.  We don't have that kind of

                    turbulence but we have issues with rail and

                                                                           9



                    certain routes and exchanges of things that

                    could create problems.

                         So I don't know how we ultimately get to a

                    good place.  There is a reality that Bob

                    mentioned.  The stop time for the distance

                    between stops are pretty extreme and may be

                    longer than anyone would want to stay in any

                    one position.  So we have to sort through how

                    we deal with that.  I don't think we do it

                    today.  I think we crack that, keep those

                    comments in front of ourselves so we don't lose

                    them as we move down the path for

                    recommendation.  It is a very real concern.

                         And I have been on trains where I have

                    been tossed around on the Northeast corridor

                    and out on the open ground in the country and

                    it varies mile by mile.  So we can't assume

                    that they don't exist.  Those situations do

                    exist.  We have to figure out how we handle

                    that reality and yet provide the level of

                    service we like to provide at the same time.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I appreciate what everyone

                    has said.  I want to deeply appreciate what you

                    said, which is, I think, gave us a context

                    which is we can't know yet.  And given the

                                                                          10



                    pressing nature of this issue for the

                    disability community, which you acknowledge in

                    a good way, what we would hope -- I mean, in

                    rulemaking situation of this type that you

                    don't include the limitation until you know

                    that you have it.

                         So you keep it as accessible as you can

                    until you know you have to make a specific,

                    exact limit that you carve out as specifically

                    as you can but not just on a supposed it is a

                    too much of a shaking --

                         MS. MARTIN:  Can I make a suggestion,

                    Blair?  Can there be some sort of first part of

                    that sentence that makes folks feel better

                    about it in the sense of "absent significant,"

                    looking at what our DOT standard is for direct

                    threat, significant risk to the health or

                    safety of others.  Can it just be a limiting

                    clause at the beginning that says absent

                    significant safety concerns, comma.  I don't

                    know.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I think it is a good

                    suggestion but I think the problem is those

                    familiar with the applicability of that rule

                    understand how specific and narrow an exception

                                                                          11



                    that it is.

                         MS. MARTIN:  Yes.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  But if you get beyond that

                    knowledge group, or however to say that, it is

                    easy to say, "Oh, yeah, that seems really

                    unsafe to me.  We don't have to do it."  I

                    mean, I would be more comfortable -- I mean, to

                    pick up on Blair's comment, I would hope if we

                    have to limit it, it wouldn't be a general

                    limit.  It would be a very specific limit.

                    Again, as Blair said, we can speculate all day

                    but we don't know it.  Can we wait and once we

                    know, negotiate some kind of narrow exception

                    and people who care about this as feeling it is

                    too strong should keep a list or whatever for

                    themselves to bring it back up again when that

                    time comes.

                         MR. HOFF:  Correct me if I'm wrong, I

                    don't know if it is in our purview at this

                    point to be making a recommendation or

                    specifying about the use.  That is more left to

                    the DOT regulations and not necessarily the

                    standards for the vehicle.  The standards for

                    the vehicle is about how to equip the vehicle,

                    how and when to use it.  Is that not a DOT

                                                                          12



                    regulation that would stipulate that down the

                    road?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Can someone from the

                    Access Board speak to that?  Hello?  Ut-oh.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I can hear you, Blair.

                         <<<:  What was that again?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  The point that Ed made.

                    We are starting to get balled up in the

                    discussion about things that really fall into

                    the operating practice side versus the physical

                    device side, physical ability side of achieving

                    something.

                         Is that something that the Board needs to

                    or the DOT needs to take up versus us looking

                    at the vehicles themselves?

                         <<<:  Operations is outside the scope of

                    the subcommittee.  It is outside of the scope

                    of the Access Board's duties so we can't really

                    address any operational issues.  And we really

                    need to -- some of these details, we are being

                    bogged down in the detail of this and a lot of

                    the details will have to be worked out by

                    manufacturers and transit agencies as the rule

                    is put out there for investigation and trials.

                    We need to look at size and operable parts and

                                                                          13



                    clear spaces and that type of thing.

                         We know that this has been done.  It has

                    been done on the Alaska Rail.  And I think

                    somebody needs to find out what has been done

                    there because there is no point in reinventing

                    the wheel.

                         They have been investigating the

                    operational aspects and the safety aspects and

                    even the size and weight issues.  So do we have

                    somebody who can get that information and bring

                    it to us?

                         <<<:  Ken has been mostly involved.  I

                    don't know who else --

                         <<<:  I did some investigation and I spent

                    quite a bit of time.  The fact that the

                    manufacturer is out of business doesn't help.

                    I have not been able to find anybody up in

                    Alaska willing to comment on this.

                         MS. MARTIN:  Calvin Gibson, the director

                    of civil rights here, went up to Alaska and did

                    a compliance visit last summer.  He probably

                    could talk to people, if they are interested.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I asked Josh to help me

                    dig up some information on that and I think

                    Josh has been inundated with a lot of

                                                                          14



                    activities, but I know he was going to contact

                    Alaska again because he was involved with the

                    director, with the mechanical operation.

                         To that end, to Melissa's point, I think

                    we need to steer away and back to some of the

                    other keystone points we need to sort out in

                    this committee.

                         And I will say this, Melissa and I spoke

                    yesterday and folks at Amtrak have been chewing

                    on some possibilities of -- some of these

                    things are big enough that we feel like we need

                    to -- between the point that RVAAC makes its

                    recommendation, this committee makes it

                    recommendation to RVAAC and RVAAC makes a

                    recommendation to the Access Board.  There is a

                    window of time the Access Board is reviewing

                    and doing a lot of research.  That in that time

                    frame and possibly even before then, we are

                    looking at within Amtrak the possibility of

                    trying to look in some of these physical

                    realities.  So we are speaking not just as a

                    provider, but looking to the community to see

                    what the realities are.

                         Right now we are all working from what we

                    know and what we know about how well it works

                                                                          15



                    and how vehicles behave.  But doing this

                    process on a vehicle, we don't know nearly as

                    much about in a daily operating environment.

                    So we can go through some of the exercises and

                    understand what things we are going to run up

                    against, ideally come up with something we can

                    maybe test on the active railroad, whether it

                    is in service, to learn what we need to know so

                    that will help the Access Board craft

                    recommendations or proposed rules that stand a

                    chance of working.

                         MR. REUTER:  I suggest we all take a field

                    trip up to Alaska and find out.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I'm up for all that, Bob.

                    You set it up and we will go.

                         <<<:  I will set it up if someone else

                    pays for it.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I'm up for the Access Board

                    paying for it.

                         MR. TALBOT:  They also have lifts on board

                    the cars in Canada too, on the dome cars.

                         <<<:  And the other questions are how are

                    the dumb waiters working in the dining cars.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  The dumb waiters

                    actually -- we have a dumb waiter system now

                                                                          16



                    that works pretty well.  It came with great

                    gnashing of teeth to get it to work as well as

                    it does.

                         In industry when you go from moving

                    objects to people, it is a different world and

                    yet you are only moving X numbers of pounds up

                    and down.  When someone's life, it is a little

                    different.  So I don't want to use the direct

                    comparison.  A lot of the problems are the

                    same, Bob.  But when we are dealing with live

                    folks, I take it very differently.

                         <<<:  I was wondering how they were

                    working in the rail environment and if they

                    were proposing any problems.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  And, Bob, I appreciate

                    that.  We worked actually with Wheel-O-Vator

                    for a while and finally had to go to someone in

                    our industry to build a device that would

                    tolerate the sides to sides and ups and downs.

                         Again, I don't -- to Marilyn's point, I

                    don't doubt there are technical solutions to

                    these things.  We have to match technical

                    solutions with operating realities.

                         I will, for all its worth, whatever my

                    reassurance is worth, I don't want safety to be

                                                                          17



                    used as a crutch for not doing something.  But

                    at the same time, you want to make sure that we

                    have -- we create a safe environment for people

                    to enjoy the train.  You can't compromise on

                    that.  We can't let it be an excuse for not

                    doing something.

                         So with that said, I think it is vital to

                    work into some of the other areas on

                    circulation that are really keystones, even for

                    vertical access.  When we start looking at

                    spacial requirements -- not those just on the

                    long haul side, but everybody in rail

                    transportation, big or small way.

                         With that said, unless someone has a big

                    point, I would like to move into that aspect

                    and pick up where we left off last meeting.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I'm agreeing with what you

                    just said.  I think the operational aspect

                    shouldn't even be regulated, when you have to

                    use it and when you don't have to use it.  I

                    think you should focus more on size and

                    capacity.

                         Even though you can learn stuff in what

                    they did in one small railroad, I think the

                    information comes more out of the work that Ed

                                                                          18



                    did in telling you what size of equipment is

                    out there and what size you need.

                         MS. MARTIN:  I have another suggestion

                    about one sentence because it does focus, you

                    know, the operation of the lift and when it is

                    used.  Can we change it to say something like

                    facilities and features should be designed to

                    be operated when the train is not stopped?  The

                    principle is we would hope to design it,

                    suggest a design or get to a design that could

                    be operated when the train is running.  But

                    because that is our mandate; it is not to

                    decide for railroads when it is operated.

                         <<<:  Good point.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  This is Melissa from the

                    Access Board.  You guys can make those kinds of

                    recommendations and if it can't happen, then

                    the industry will tell us that is not possible

                    and why.  So we don't have to solve all the

                    problems because the recommendations will end

                    up in a proposed rule that will go out for

                    public comment by the industry and they will

                    say, "We just can't do that" or, "It is not

                    safe because."  So we are not looking for the

                    end all answers here.  Just recommendations on

                                                                          19



                    how we should proceed.

                         MR. CANNON:  Remember too that the Board

                    is going to develop some specifications and

                    propose them and eventually get a final rule on

                    what the dimensions and those kinds of things

                    are.

                         As far as the operational aspect is, those

                    guidelines, even in final form, that it is not

                    the end all.  They have to be adopted as

                    standards by DOT.  And during that process,

                    there is another rulemaking ability at which

                    time probably some part 37 will have to be

                    modified to deal with the operational things.

                    And there is an opportunity at that point to

                    get into the operational issues and have DOT

                    regulations speak to some of the operational

                    things.

                         So it is not an end process.  At this

                    point what the Board is going to be doing is

                    creating the vehicle specifications that the

                    manufacturer is going to be using to build the

                    car.  Once it is on the road and how it

                    operates, that is really DOT's issue.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We get a lot of good clear

                    floor space on the second attachment that Ed

                                                                          20



                    Steinfeld presented.  I don't know if that is

                    the direction you want to go next, Blair.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I would.  It goes to where

                    we left off in the last meeting.  What I would

                    like to do ahead of next meeting is provide

                    back a revised draft with today's comments for

                    the vertical lift and have another shot at it

                    and try to incorporate some of the things we

                    heard today, again, to keep us focused with

                    achieving our goals for the subcommittee but

                    not getting too wound up on that particular

                    issue.

                         I mean, I agree -- trust me, I'm at

                    Amtrak, right.  This is going to effect us most

                    of all.  There is a lot of time we could be

                    spending on it and I don't discount that.  But,

                    again, if we don't get some of these keystone

                    issues resolved, it will effect not just my

                    rail, and the rest of you, we won't have done a

                    good day's work or a good job for the

                    committee.

                         So if we could pick up on that.

                    Unfortunately I don't have printed documents.

                    I'm scrolling through here on the left to see

                    what we have.

                                                                          21



                         <<<:  May I make a suggestion here.  There

                    is another committee that is spending a lot of

                    time on size and dimensions.  I think we should

                    wait until that subcommittee is finished.  We

                    could work with the opticals.  If we have to

                    have a door, it has to be X plus two inches and

                    that X will be whatever the X is from the other

                    subcommittee.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Those are things this

                    subcommittee is supposed to address.  There is

                    a boarding and lighting subcommittee that will

                    deal with lifts and ramps and such and we will

                    have to coordinate, but we also have to address

                    it inside the car.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  As we started out in the

                    last meeting with the assumption that we have

                    arrived in the doorway of the car, the light --

                    the boarding and the lighting -- the boarding

                    side has delivered us to the vehicle.  What do

                    we do now.  So we have to move from that

                    doorway to a vestibule and through some other

                    entrance condition, depending on the mode, to

                    the seating area and there is restrooms

                    involved from that seating area to restrooms or

                    other amenities that are involved in particular

                                                                          22



                    vehicles.

                         I am fumbling through the information that

                    Ed has provided.  Can anyone tell me in a quick

                    form what we are looking at?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Ed is on the call.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Okay.  You want me to go

                    over it or do you want to --

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think that would be good

                    because we gave you the biggest homework

                    assignment, I think.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Okay.  So as everybody may

                    know, maybe some people don't, that we did a

                    study where we measured 500 wheel mobility

                    users and we used manual wheelchairs, power

                    wheelchairs and scooters.  And among the many

                    things that we did measure, we measured

                    occupied length and width.  And we used that to

                    develop recommendations, clear floor space, the

                    space that you provide near anything or where

                    people need to reach or where people are going

                    to be sitting in a wheelchair for a period of

                    time or approaching things and so forth.

                         So this is a basic part of accessibility

                    codes for buildings.

                         <<<:  This is the same PowerPoint display

                                                                          23



                    that you put on at the last meeting?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  No.  The document that I

                    sent in, which was sent out to all of us, was

                    my homework assignment.  I was asked to take

                    that data and present it with some

                    recommendations for this committee.

                         MR. CANNON:  I believe you are talking

                    about the document that is the attachment to

                    the email; is that right?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Right.

                         MR. CANNON:  It says CSS proposal of

                    objects.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  But the research I refer

                    to, this memo was the same as what was

                    presented in the meeting.  And current standard

                    is the 30" x 45" rectangle and additional space

                    of six inches in width and 12 inches in length

                    when you have an alcove .and the alcove is

                    defined by the depth of the recess and

                    direction of the recess, whether it is forward

                    or side approach or forward approach.

                         So in the results, what we found was that

                    the current standards really don't accommodate

                    significant number of people, enough people

                    .like the current standards are not

                                                                          24



                    accommodating about 50 percent -- they are only

                    accommodating 75 percent of manual wheelchair

                    users.  And not even that, really, when you

                    look at the width.  And only about 50 percent

                    of power wheelchair users and only about

                    50 percent of scooter users.  And I show that

                    data in the memo.

                         In vehicles, the question then becomes

                    what do you do in vehicles?  What are the

                    differences between buildings and vehicles?

                    And it is important to know that you do need

                    better tolerances, I think, in vehicles because

                    there is a lot more maneuvering that goes on.

                    It is a lot tighter space.  To get between --

                    we have been studying buses so I will use that

                    example, but I think it is the same in rail.

                         To get between two rows of seats or to get

                    through a doorway and then maneuver in a

                    position, it is not like in a building, in a

                    room.

                         So I think we really need to consider not

                    just the size of the people, but also some

                    tolerances for the larger spacing.

                         Now, on rail, we don't have securement

                    spaces.  We do have something different and

                                                                          25



                    that is we have transfer spaces.  That is sort

                    of like in public assembly spaces where we

                    require transfer spaces so people can get out

                    of their device into one of the seats.

                         And that means also you need to have a

                    place to stow the empty wheelchair so it is not

                    in the aisle, not preventing other people from

                    getting by and so forth.  That is an issue that

                    is different in a vehicle than it might be in a

                    vehicle.

                         And another thing we know is from other

                    research is that people bring a lot of large

                    things on rail vehicles.

                         There is a study of a bar system where

                    people brought baby carriages, lawn mowers and

                    plumb fixtures because people use rail vehicles

                    to get them from shopping expeditions to their

                    home.  So at least on intra-city rail I think

                    it is very important to think of all these

                    other things.

                         So even on long distance rail people come

                    on with suitcases.  You can't always get those

                    suitcases back into the storage compartment and

                    there is also the need for storage space for

                    things like strollers and other kinds of stuff

                                                                          26



                    that people bring with them.

                         Another thing to think about is if you are

                    out of storage space, how is seating arranged?

                    In some rail systems the seating is

                    longitudinal seating where you are sitting

                    where your back is against the exterior wall of

                    the vehicle and facing to the center and others

                    it is in rows where people are facing forward

                    or backward or both.  In some cars both types

                    of seating are used.

                         Also another type of seating is table

                    seating you might have in dining and

                    observation cars.  So we need to think about

                    having spaces where wheel mobility users can

                    travel that provides equivalent experiences in

                    terms of the direction they are facing or their

                    relationship with other people in the vehicle.

                         So, bottom line, we need to have

                    requirements that will accommodate all these

                    different conditions, which means they have to

                    be flexible for all these potentially different

                    situations.

                         And then I gave a list of proposals to go

                    through them.  I think the clear floor space

                    should be provided immediately inside, the

                                                                          27



                    accessible entrance.  You need an accessible

                    path to the clear floor spaces.  They shouldn't

                    be located in vestibules or other areas where

                    seating is not provide for other passengers,

                    although in some cases it is provided for other

                    passengers.  We have to think whether we want

                    to require it there too or whether just in the

                    main compartment.  And we certainly need

                    accessibility path or travel in those

                    vestibules.

                         The clear floor space should be based on

                    our research, 32 x 54, unless the size of the

                    clear floor space is bounded by immoveable

                    objects.  And then the question becomes how

                    many should be provided.

                         I think it is not unusual for people who

                    use wheel mobility devices to travel with other

                    people who do and I think we also have to

                    recognize that there may be a lot of people who

                    need clear floor spaces and are traveling all

                    at once, maybe not in the same car, but in the

                    same train.  You have groups, for example,

                    wheelchair basketball teams and so forth.

                         So I think we ought to think about how

                    these two clear floor spaces should be provided

                                                                          28



                    on each car and I think it is better to do it

                    together because it creates more flexibility

                    for other uses, for the other people.  I wasn't

                    talking about in packages and carriages or

                    people traveling together.  So where space

                    abounds -- like in building standards, add

                    another tolerance of 6 inches and 12 inches.  I

                    don't think we should do it like in the

                    building standards because I think there are

                    simpler ways to do it and it can be applied

                    more generally .and if we affix it to those two

                    types that is what we will get.  It has to do

                    with the size of the clear floor spaces that

                    are bounded and I think we can write language

                    that can deal with which sides are bounded and

                    what the tolerances should be.

                         I think we need to have illustrations for

                    this.  I didn't do them, but I think we need

                    that.

                         I have traveled on trains in Europe where

                    the clear floor space is provided in a

                    generally large compartment and I have seen

                    this in South America also.  It works pretty

                    well because of rush-hour traffic.  When you

                    have rush hour, a lot of standing and operators

                                                                          29



                    may want more standing room.  And flip-down

                    seats are largely useful for that because you

                    can use the seats for seated passengers that

                    need them.  They can be priority seats.  But

                    they can also be flipped up so they can be made

                    into clear floor spaces and they also allow for

                    companion kind of seating arrangement.

                         So I really think every clear floor space

                    should have flip-down seats because it

                    increases the flexibility of how they can be

                    used, both for groups traveling with people

                    with disabilities and also for others who need

                    more space for objects like luggage and things

                    like, you know, kitchen sinks and stuff like

                    that.

                         And I think that there needs to be a clear

                    floor space next to a transfer seat.  But if we

                    combine the flip-down seat with the transfer

                    seat, that can easily be achieved.  And I think

                    we need to think about stowage space for

                    unoccupied devices.  I'm not sure how much

                    space is required for that.  We have data on

                    unoccupied device sizes.  A lot of wheelchairs

                    cannot be folded and that includes manual

                    chairs, like high-performance manual chairs

                                                                          30



                    that have rigid frames.  They can be stowed.

                    They can be folded in often different ways than

                    a folding chair but that means taking them

                    apart and that is complicated while you are on

                    a vehicle and before -- and when you get on a

                    vehicle and they want it to move fast.

                         I'm not sure whether you need stowage

                    space on intercity -- intra city -- and I don't

                    know how you define that.  Commuter rail and

                    subways, do we need stowage space on those?  I

                    don't know.  I don't think we do, but how do

                    you define that and that is going to be an

                    issue.  But certainly needed on long distance

                    trains, very much like what we now have on

                    airplanes.  And I think we should allow it to

                    be combined with other things because a lot of

                    stuff is brought on trains and ideally should

                    be put on a protected place rather than just

                    lying around.

                         So those are my thoughts.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Thank you for that.  I'm

                    sure we will have some questions for you coming

                    into this as we talk about it more.

                         One of the things I have taken the

                    recommendations for PRIIA and applied them to

                                                                          31



                    existing car floor plan because of intercity

                    cars.  When you start looking at those hard

                    definitions, you begin to consume a lot of

                    space in the train.  And when you throw in --

                    or define spaces for service animals and things

                    like that, I know that from the provider side,

                    we are always in the quandary between complying

                    with accessibility requirements and just, you

                    know, doing the right thing, so to speak, and

                    the constant pressure to maintain and increase

                    when we can revenue space.

                         But I think that drives to the point that

                    I made at one of our other meetings.  I think

                    the key going down the path is less about

                    defining quantity of unchangeable spaces and

                    more about ensuring that there is the

                    flexibility within vehicles to accommodate and

                    not accommodate in some, you know, half baked

                    fashion.  But to accommodate properly by being

                    able to immediately configure the vehicle,

                    whether it is the flip seats or some other

                    devices, depending on the mode and the length

                    of the trip, and those sorts of things so the

                    people are properly and safely accommodated

                    without fail and at the same time we could

                                                                          32



                    manage to keep the capacity of the vehicles up.

                         One of the risks -- and not in a safe way.

                    Well, sometimes it is.  One of the things we

                    run up against and it is very frustrating and

                    I'm sure other modes run up against it as well,

                    people do bring lots of things and they tend to

                    pile them up.  And unfortunately they tend to

                    pile them up in spaces we define as accessible

                    places and that requires a lot of policing.

                    Because people just see if no one is there

                    actually using the space intended, people just

                    see empty space and it is just sort of a human

                    thing, I guess.  So those are always one of

                    those troublesome things where you get someone

                    who is used to someone bringing a lawn mower --

                    haven't seen it on our train yet.

                         Amtrak, I know, is very actively trying to

                    measure its carry on baggage better so that we

                    don't have that sort of accumulation going on.

                    We are trying to be very -- not quite as bad as

                    the airlines, but more reasonable about the

                    tonnage people bring on to travel with, because

                    sometimes it is ridiculous.  And where we have

                    check bag provision, having people check bags,

                    that has its onset of difficulties.

                                                                          33



                         Anyone else have any thought on what Ed's

                    just talked about?

                         MR. REUTER:  Over-the-road bus industry

                    has developed a sliding track seat so that two

                    or three people can be slid together to make

                    space when needed.  This may be something to

                    consider.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Bob, you are thinking

                    along the same lines about things we discussed

                    internally about how we can achieve -- maybe we

                    can't achieve all things but we can achieve

                    most.  And we talked about seats that will

                    slide together, seats that can readily be

                    removed from the train if the situation

                    requires so that you can accommodate people

                    quickly and easily without compromise.  And at

                    the same time where the space is not needed,

                    you know, you have other revenue seats there

                    for folks to sit in.

                         So it is a challenge.  I don't think it is

                    insurmountable.  Again, like anything else, it

                    is a technical challenge and those of us in the

                    technical world that is what we do.  Sometimes

                    we forget that.

                         We do need to get back to defining some

                                                                          34



                    rigid numbers, at least as a starting point to

                    work around.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I would like to -- I think --

                    I just want to thank Ed for his report.  I

                    thought it was extremely helpful and really

                    anticipated a lot, all the different

                    eventualities we have to face, and also

                    suggested numbers and appreciated the reasons

                    for them.

                         I would hope we would implement his

                    recommendation until we learn that we can't.

                    That is at least our suggestions.  Two other

                    quick comments.

                         Bob, I hear you about track feeding and

                    also, Blair, on over-the-road buses, we

                    discovered -- maybe there are other generations

                    of that and recent ones are better.  But some

                    of them jam up with debris.  Removable seats

                    that Blair talked about is very interesting.

                         Tinshi Toni (ph) could not be here today,

                    suggested an issue that is not on the agenda,

                    that the disability should add for future cars

                    we look at the possibility of removing seats so

                    again you could have people ride together.  And

                    we have to figure out how to finesse that.  And

                                                                          35



                    I think removable seats is a great idea.

                         But track seating, unless it has gotten

                    better, it gets better.  Back in the days with

                    over-the-road buses before 2012 when they were

                    allowed to ask for 48 hours notice, people who

                    set up equipment and sent it out to the driver,

                    I don't know the details of that, sort of the

                    advance people in the garage took expanded

                    seats when you needed a bus to be accessible.

                    But with removable of advance notice, which

                    brings it to the situation on the train, you

                    don't know who is coming on when, some of the

                    divers can't move the seats quickly because

                    they are jammed or messed up.  So it worries me

                    to do that unless we know the technology is

                    better now.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  I think at this point it

                    might be best to talk about the principle of

                    making more space by adapting existing things.

                    I only put in, you know -- I should have

                    thought more broadly about it because I just

                    wrote flip-down seats.  And I was very

                    specific.  I didn't say flip-up because we

                    found in our research on buses that flip-up

                    seats are not the greatest because they are

                                                                          36



                    hard to manage.  Like if you come on a train

                    and compartment and there is not anyone to help

                    you or your fellow passengers have to help you,

                    if you don't know how to release it and let it

                    flip up, then it may be impossible to use it.

                         But flip-down seats are the kind of seats

                    you just push the seats down, like you see in a

                    theater, and those are much more intuitive and

                    easier to do.  I don't know if we should get

                    into it, but I didn't think about removing or

                    shifting seats.  I think there are probably a

                    lot of ways it can be done.  The whole idea is

                    you have flexibility seating for spaces.  I

                    think we can look at what technologies work and

                    what performance technologies might be needed

                    to encourage innovation on this.

                         I have seen seats on paratransit buses --

                    paratransit buses a lot of them have tracks

                    with removable seats to accommodate different

                    ridership at different times.  I have seen a

                    new kind of seat -- I don't know if it is

                    actually new.  I have seen a seat I have not

                    seen before, basically very comfortable kind of

                    captain chair seat.  It folds up on the side of

                    the van.  It does take up some space, but it

                                                                          37



                    looks quite comfortable and very easy to fold

                    up and it is much better for longer distance

                    rides than a typical flip-down seat on a subway

                    train.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I just want to make the

                    quick comment about this.  I think we are

                    getting too much into the details.  I really

                    think you want to say you want a space, the

                    size of the space and accessible path.  Whether

                    the authority wants to make it a flexible

                    space or not, should be up to them, whether

                    they think it is necessary or not.

                         And the only thing you might want to

                    specify if you have flip seating, it always has

                    to be in the up position because you don't want

                    the person in the wheelchair to put it in the

                    up position.  I would agree with that.

                         I think we are getting way too deep in

                    details of what kind of configurations and

                    making the cars flexible and requires the seats

                    to be flip-up.  I think that is much more

                    information and more restrictive than you want

                    it to be.  You want clear floor space and

                    accessible path.  How that is achieved with the

                    seating arrangement should be up to the

                                                                          38



                    authority to figure out and the need for

                    flip-up seats should be up to them to figure

                    out whether they want them or not.  You want to

                    say you want them in the up position so no one

                    has to flip them up to get in the space.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Agree with that except with

                    the point the Board is doing now, which is

                    great, which is presenting minimum standards

                    .they are very specific than having advisory

                    language.  And my understanding is advisory

                    committees are places that can generate

                    suggestions for advisory language and insights

                    like Ed presents -- I like actually what you

                    said, Frank, about saying flip-down versus up,

                    we are suggest a removable seat and maybe

                    discouraging a track seat is a good possible --

                    a good nominee for a little piece of advisory

                    language.

                         MR. CANNON:  The current language for

                    buses and trains and whatever specifies the

                    clear floor space and then simply says you are

                    permitted to have removable or whatever seats

                    in that space for the use of people who -- as

                    long as they don't interfere with floor space.

                         MR. MALDARI:  That is the way it should

                                                                          39



                    be.

                         MR. CANNON:  With the performance standard

                    right now it doesn't say it should be flip-up,

                    flip-down, sliding, removable, just that they

                    are allowed to have them in there as long as

                    they don't obscure the clear floor space in

                    their up or folded position and then let the

                    designers or whatever figure out what to do.

                         In the Talgo cars in the area where you

                    have table seating, they have a seat that the

                    seat itself flips up and then the whole thing

                    slides back into an alcove behind you and you

                    can pull in with a wheelchair.  It is a very

                    interesting design.  I don't think we need to

                    get that specific but if someone comes up with

                    a design like that, I think that is great.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Dennis, I think that is a

                    very good comment.  And also, Frank, I

                    appreciate your comment as well.  I think

                    that -- if someone on the Board can clarify

                    this.  I thought at the last meeting there was

                    a comment that we can no longer or that the

                    Access Board can't put in advisory language

                    anymore.  Is that true?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We are moving away from

                                                                          40



                    advisory language and we are providing

                    technical assistance guide.  And we can't

                    publish advisories in the CFR, in the Federal

                    Register because they are not actual standards

                    or regulations.

                         So we can provide it as part of the

                    technical guide.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Okay.  Very good.  I think

                    that, again, to try to bring us back into

                    focusing.  One of the things that Ed said and I

                    think is very interesting is that if we define

                    clear floor space minimums and there are

                    caveats that go with that based on how that

                    space is bounded, I think that is largely

                    critical with vehicles I don't deal with.  But

                    transit vehicles where there is not a lot of

                    bounding, there is more open space and that is

                    a more easier accommodation because you are not

                    bounding the space so rigidly.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  I think we also have to

                    consider things like toe clearance you could

                    have under seat and so we have to define what

                    bounded means and different kinds of conditions

                    that would apply.

                         MR. CANNON:  The current standard does

                                                                          41



                    have requirements or some allowance for clear

                    floor space to go under a seat, a minimum, I

                    believe, is 9 inches of vertical clearance and

                    you allow 6 inches max of clear floor space

                    under something like that.

                         The other issue is when you say define the

                    space, and, as Ed has pointed out, talk about

                    immoveable objects on a bus, for example, when

                    you go down the aisle from the front door you

                    go between the wheel wells.  You can't do

                    anything about that.  You can't move those

                    because the wheels have to be able to turn and

                    so forth.  So there are limitations and they

                    usually are not the kind of thing in rail cars,

                    at least if we design them properly like the

                    Acela that has a much wider aisle than the

                    older cars.

                         We talked about the vestibules, that is,

                    where you enter on the side and you have to

                    make a wide angle turn down the wall and the

                    aisleway.  That is typical of Amtrak and

                    whatever car.  It is not usually the case in

                    some of the intercity commuter rails, at least.

                    I was told that the PRIIA vestibule width is --

                    the current ADA guidelines say 32 clear.  And

                                                                          42



                    I'm wondering how the 44 is measured.  It is

                    measured from the outer wall to the bulkhead or

                    is it measured clear space, meaning from any

                    protruding object like the crab (ph) latch, for

                    example?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think the 32 is the

                    doorway opening and the vestibule measurement

                    is clear over any obstacle, such as latch or

                    something sticking out of the wall.

                         MS. MARTIN:  The old vestibule number was

                    42 and the newer one and the 305 spec is 44.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  One of the things -- I'm

                    glad this is brought up because I forgot to put

                    it on my list.  Turning into a vestibule into

                    the passenger compartment is what we call an L

                    turn maneuver.  And in our research we found

                    that we have data on how wide each leg of that

                    L should be.  And going into a 32 -- although

                    we didn't study going into a 32 inch opening.

                    What we did find, though, if you have a 43 x 43

                    turn, so essentially going from the vestibule

                    that is 43 inches wide and then you turn into a

                    space that is 43-inches wide, meaning the

                    doorway, then that would accommodate everyone

                    in our sample.  When you narrow the doorway to

                                                                          43



                    32, then a lot of people won't be able to make

                    that turn, unless the vestibule is a lot

                    deeper.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Or the doorway is wider.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Yeah, you can make the

                    doorway wider.  You can have a two-panel

                    doorway.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Is that why the (inaudible)

                    through dimension is what it is?  Did we

                    discuss or I can't remember where it was

                    discussed but I was in a discussion.  It might

                    have been --

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It was discussed at the

                    last meeting and we talked about the 42 inch

                    clear on the existing rules.  Forty-four is

                    what was proposed in the PRIIA.  And someone

                    else mentioned in Canada there is 60-inch wide

                    vestibules and we talked about the turning into

                    the aisle, the L turn as well, just looking

                    back at my notes.

                         <<<:  Again, what are we doing right now?

                    What was the last rule on the buses?  What was

                    the number, not on the vestibule, but on the

                    clear floor space as well?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  You mean between the wheel

                                                                          44



                    wells on buses?

                         <<<:  No; the clear floor space allowances

                    for parking.

                         MR. CANNON:  In the proposed update it is

                    the same as it was before, 30 x 48.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  But that is not the right

                    comparison.

                         <<<:  Looking at a jump off point,

                    Marilyn, I don't doubt we need to increase that

                    size, but I thought -- if you are looking at

                    transit versus intercity stuff, if I'm making a

                    transfer from a bus to a light rail or subway,

                    I have to expect to find, I hope, the same

                    minimum accommodations at least.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I thought we had decided not

                    to go below the PRIIA car recommendations or

                    requirement?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Before we get to that, the

                    bus requirements are really old.  I mean, those

                    are based on the 30 x 48 clear floor space in

                    the ICC NC meetings.  We agreed to increase the

                    clear floor space because it is inadequate.

                    Because now the buildings will be designed to

                    have a larger clear floor space and the buses

                    should be too.

                                                                          45



                         In our experiences the transit operators

                    are using a deeper, 60 inches of clearance and

                    the width is open because, you know, because it

                    is wider than that because it the width of two

                    chairs, two seats in a forward facing row.

                         The actual reality on buses is they

                    provide more space.

                         MR. REUTER:  I remember in the original

                    meeting, that 30 inch was with a door with a

                    company that is out of business that couldn't

                    do it.  No reason to have anything less than

                    32.

                         <<<:  I thought we were talking about the

                    clear floor space?

                         MR. REUTER:  And 30 inches was the maximum

                    the old bus could get in.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  You are not referring to

                    the clear floor space.  Secure --

                         MR. REUTER:  Not the clear floor space

                    there, but the clear opening through the door.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Yeah, the door is wider

                    now.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think we are getting a

                    little muddy here, but these things

                    interrelate.  The clear floor space, correct me

                                                                          46



                    if I'm wrong, the way I look at it, that

                    defines the cubic measure, the static measure

                    that we need to make sure we can move through

                    from the doorway down the path to where the

                    parking space is.  Realize the path may be very

                    different, depending on the mode.  May be

                    nonexistent, depending on the certain transit

                    vehicle.

                         Again, to put some hard numbers against

                    defining that space, that would let us lean

                    back on do we go with the PRIIA recommendations

                    for the vestibule clear space?  Do we need to

                    define the cubicle or (inaudible) space and

                    then define that you simply -- you give some

                    basic definition and then some performance

                    definition for moving from the entrance area to

                    the defined parking space, rather than getting

                    tied up like the original rules gave a specific

                    dimension.  I guess we need to decide how do we

                    want to do that.

                         Do we want to say you must provide the

                    condition or do we want to give specific

                    dimensions that can be good/can be bad?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  In the rule that was

                    proposed we kept the regular 30 x 48".

                                                                          47



                         MR. REUTER:  I think it is a performance

                    standard.  I have always been a big fan of

                    performance standard.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  They added the maneuvering

                    space.

                         <<<:  Melissa, you dropped off.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Our mics are dying here.

                    We added 6" for maneuvering space.  If you are

                    parallel parking and you are confined on three

                    sides then you need more space to wiggle your

                    way into that wheelchair securement or just the

                    wheelchair location.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  So the length of the space

                    was increased to 54, 48 plus 6 inches?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  The length gave it 48, but

                    maneuvering space was added to it.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  So effectively you have 30

                    by 48-inch space?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Right.  Maneuvering space

                    in one mode may be different than maneuvering

                    space in another mode?

                         MR. CANNON:  Let me clarify what some of

                    the issue is.  Performance standards are great

                    until somebody tries to perform and they don't

                    know what they are doing.  We used to have a

                                                                          48



                    provision in the original bus rule that set out

                    the minimum requirements to clear floor space

                    where the wheelchair was going to be secured

                    and then there is a minimum width for the lift,

                    the ramp, which essentially fits in the doorway

                    and sort of we didn't define the doorway, but

                    the lifts defined how wide the doorways were

                    going to be.  Then we had a performance

                    requirement that said sufficient maneuvering

                    requirements to get in the door and into the

                    clear floor space.  And we found that was not

                    adequate for people to adequately design buses.

                         They didn't exactly know what, quote,

                    sufficient clearance space was.  In the new

                    rule we tried to clarify that a little bit by

                    specifying some minimum distances measured at

                    all points along that path.  That is probably a

                    little better than some of the other

                    provisions.  But just saying "provision space",

                    is usually not enough for a builder to design

                    something because then the builder has to go

                    out and sort of measure wheelchairs and come up

                    with some idea of what and how wheelchair

                    maneuvers, when that shouldn't be the case.

                         We as a guideline provider should tell

                                                                          49



                    them how to design the space.

                         <<<:  One question is the 32 x 54 are a

                    90 percent drop?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Let me look.  Yeah, it is

                    roughly.

                         <<<:  Approximately --

                         MR. STEINFELD:  It is a little

                    complicated.  There is width and there are --

                         <<<:  Right, a 32 x 54.  We could

                    accommodate at least 95 percent.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Roughly, I would say.

                         <<<:  I think that is an excellent piece

                    of information.

                         MS. MARTIN:  That is the clear space

                    required of the bilevel 305 compliant car, is

                    32 x 54.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I like the idea of

                    performance standards of giving flexibility to

                    the designer.  I think what is lacking once you

                    get in the car is defining how the wheelchair

                    maneuvers.  Is there any way you can think of

                    to restrict or guide the person in maneuvering

                    of the wheelchair that can be added on top of

                    the performance standard?

                         MR. CANNON:  First of all, we had

                                                                          50



                    manufacturers doing things like building a box

                    that was 40 inches tall and pushing it through

                    the aisle and saying, "If you can't push it

                    through the aisle it is not accessible."  But

                    wheelchairs are not rectangular.  The fact if

                    you could push the box through the aisle, it is

                    probably accessible.  If you couldn't do that,

                    it didn't necessarily mean that a wheelchair

                    couldn't make that turn in maneuvering.  So we

                    found all sorts of interesting ways.

                         Now, we had hoped that maybe -- I think

                    this is part of what is coming up from Ed's

                    work.  We had thought there might be a computer

                    generated model that you could actually

                    essentially in virtual reality maneuver a

                    wheelchair through a design and check your

                    design before you actually started building

                    something.  I'm hoping that something like that

                    will come along.  That is not something we will

                    put in specification for the Access Board, but

                    it is something included in technical

                    assistance.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  That is something we want

                    to do, but it is not as simple because you have

                    to look at the different wheelchairs.  You

                                                                          51



                    can't have one model, but you need to have a

                    lot of models and we need funding to do that,

                    which we don't have right now.

                         In response to what Dennis said, when you

                    look at whether you have a trapezoidal shape

                    rather than rectangle, we found we could not.

                    A lot of people are wider in the front than the

                    rest of the chair, and they may have feet

                    dangling out.  In scooters, when they sit in

                    resting position they actually have their feet

                    on the floor in the front of the scooter.  So

                    there is a lot of complexity to this.

                         One thing we might want to consider in

                    terms of guidance is marking the clear floor

                    space in the floor in some ways so people know

                    the areas that has to be kept clear.

                         MR. REUTER:  As a strawman so we can move

                    the agenda, maybe we should set the 32 x 54 as

                    a work standard until we find it needs to be

                    changed and move the agenda to the other items.

                         MR. CANNON:  I don't think you need to --

                    I'm in favor of saying 32 x 54 is a clear floor

                    space needed in the space where the wheelchair

                    is going to be sitting.  The issue we are

                    trying to wrestle with is how to get from the

                                                                          52



                    door to that space, if you have to go down an

                    aisle and make a right angle turn in the

                    vestibule.  And that is a different issue than

                    saying, I think, clearly -- especially since we

                    are told that the PRIIA car already does this,

                    that we should settle on the clear floor space

                    being 32 x 54 and then move on from there.

                         <<<:  Four wheel scooters take up a lot

                    more maneuvering room.

                         <<<:  I think we need to have more space

                    than 32 x 54 in order to get into it.  I think

                    setting that as the clear floor space, that is

                    one thing.  But as far as the space needed to

                    get into it, we need more maneuvering space.

                         In order to figure out what that should

                    be, it would be useful to get a bunch of plans

                    of different types of rail vehicles and look at

                    them because actually may be more space

                    available than we think.

                         MR. MALDARI:  When we did our evaluation,

                    we got a wheelchair made like a box, kind of

                    like what Dennis was talking about before, and

                    you just tried to maneuver yourself in the

                    space using the wheelchair and see if you can

                    do it.  That really seems like the most logical

                                                                          53



                    way to do it.  If you say it is 32 x 54, you

                    make a 32 x 54 box and try to maneuver that in

                    a wheelchair, get into a space.  In our

                    equipment we have wide side doors.  We have

                    relatively wide opening into the passenger

                    compartment in the vestibule, which is in

                    quarter point.  And we made them even wider

                    when it was necessary because you didn't have

                    enough maneuvering room to get in there.

                         If 32 x 54 is a good parking area -- the

                    maneuverability to me, I don't know, if I was

                    doing it I would make a 32 x 54 box and try to

                    maneuver it in the space, what is wrong with

                    that approach?  What am I missing by doing it?

                         MR. CANNON:  One of the things people

                    using the box is they moved it down the aisle

                    and slid it around and wheelchairs don't turn

                    that way.  It depends on if the wheels are in

                    the front or back or middle and you can't move

                    the wheelchair sideways into an alcove, for

                    example.  The additional maneuvering space

                    added to the bus requirement in the proposed

                    rule takes into account the alcove issue, which

                    is if it is bounded on three sides in order to

                    get into that space, in order to get a 54-inch

                                                                          54



                    wheelchair into a typical space on a bus, for

                    example, you have to be able to have more room

                    to be able to turn.  The same is true with the

                    Acela, which has a post underneath a seat --

                    excuse me, underneath a table, which is added.

                    It was not part of the Bombardier design, which

                    prevents you -- me, at least, from turning into

                    the space.  So I have to have my feet turned

                    out in the aisle because that post is in the

                    way.

                         So you need, I think, some additional

                    space and maybe six inches, a number with the

                    alcove provision in the sense if it is bounded

                    on three sides, and it depends on the depth of

                    the alcove and so forth as to how much space

                    you need, it might be as much of a foot extra,

                    if you actually have to maneuver into the tight

                    space.

                         We also need to introduce something like

                    clear knee and toe space, which is currently in

                    the ADA/ABA guidelines itself to make sure the

                    tables and whatnot in trains, especially in

                    Amtrak type cars, are actually usable.

                         MR. ROMAN:  I agree with setting the

                    parking space area to 32 x 54 for the

                                                                          55



                    wheelchair, but I don't think you are going to

                    be able to tie down the maneuvering space

                    because each different mode of car, different

                    size.  I think what possibly could be done is

                    to specify the parking area and then require

                    adequate maneuvering space to get in and out of

                    that area.  Typically a study is required for

                    maneuverability for wheelchair in the parking

                    area and it is confirmed on the car mockup,

                    where the car builder brings in different types

                    of wheelchairs to be able to get into that

                    space.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Right, but you need to

                    define the size of the wheelchair.  Is the size

                    of the wheelchair 45 --

                         <<<:  Absolutely.

                         MR. MALDARI:  So is it the 32 x 54 or the

                    30 x 48?

                         MR. ROMAN:  Well, if we are going to go

                    with scooters, it will be 32 x 54.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Okay.  I'm saying the same

                    thing you are, Steve, only I'm thinking if you

                    take the box and put it on the wheelchair, it

                    limits the maneuverability you have.  You can't

                    move perfectly laterally in a wheelchair and

                                                                          56



                    you use that as your guideline hoping that a

                    scooter is as maneuverable as a standard

                    wheelchair is.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  The difficulty is that,

                    again, you get back to the geometry.  If you

                    are looking at a rear axle of a scooter being

                    at the extreme end of the 54" and the steering

                    wheel being at the other extreme end versus a

                    wheelchair where the main axle somewhere just

                    slightly before or after the middle of that box

                    and much more maneuverable device, your

                    geometry is going to be very different and your

                    maneuvering space could be quite extreme.

                         Obviously every time you add any

                    dimensional space to the clear floor space or

                    the rectangle, when you start taking that

                    dynamic, it is increasing the maneuvering

                    space.

                         So on one hand, Frank, based on what you

                    said, if you took a typical -- I hate using

                    that term, a typical wheelchair that is a

                    pretty maneuverable device and surrounded that

                    with a 32 x 48" box you could do things with

                    it.  But if you took the same box and gave it

                    scooter wheels, my understanding is you would

                                                                          57



                    have a different -- completely different

                    maneuvering footprint.

                         I think part of what we -- somehow we have

                    to define which footprint are we going to

                    maneuver for because that will define sort of

                    the worse case that we are designing for.

                         MR. REUTER:  You design for the worse case

                    scenario, then everybody else's works.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  That is right.  And also we

                    have to think about whether we can craft a

                    guideline that, as Dennis was saying, doesn't

                    invite designers to do something that is

                    working for us and it ends up not just to make

                    a box and see if we can slide it down their

                    aisle even on paper or maybe they do it

                    actually physically once it is built, I don't

                    know.  Because different types of devices move

                    in different ways, scooter versus et cetera, et

                    cetera.  And you can't follow a model that way.

                         And Dennis was saying to keep people from

                    designing that way, they had to simply not use

                    a performance standard.  They had to specify it

                    the way they did it and that was specifying

                    additional maneuvering space.  We have to just

                    craft -- you know, performance standards will

                                                                          58



                    work for some things and not for others.  This

                    seems to be one where it does not.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Marilyn, I understand you

                    are -- I think we are saying the same thing, to

                    a point.  And, again, I ask that question:  If

                    it is a performance spec, then you have to

                    define -- if we define the clear floor space

                    and that drives what we are saying, the shape

                    of the side of the vehicle, then we have to go

                    further from a performance standpoint and

                    define the wheel geometry, the axle geometry,

                    the steering geometry of that device, that

                    rectangle.  That is why I say, do we define it

                    as a scooter, which is the most restrictive.

                         And then you could say to a car builder

                    and designer, you are going to take these

                    things with these parameters.  And when you

                    give axle and wheel conditions, because wheels

                    stick to the floor and you don't slide them

                    side to side, that is where we get to trouble

                    with the box, as Dennis said.  The box will

                    move randomly where the wheelchair will not.

                    Does that become part of what we define in

                    order to make the performance standard work?

                         I mean, I would -- imagine this.  Let's

                                                                          59



                    say we said we are going to work around the

                    clear floor space for parking a wheelchair at a

                    fixed 32 x 54 and then maneuverability to that

                    space is that 32 x 54 with a fixed axle so many

                    inches from the center line to the rear.  And a

                    steering axle so many inches from the center

                    line to the front with a steering radius of X,

                    whatever we decide that should be.  And then

                    you can literally take that set of controls and

                    build a path.

                         I think -- and please, Steve Roman, I'm

                    glad you are out there because you are on the

                    thinking side, designing side of things.  Does

                    that make sense?

                         MR. ROMAN:  Blair, I think if you define

                    the space that -- well, let's see.  If you

                    define a parking space that can accommodate a

                    wheelchair that will fit in a 32 x 54" space

                    and say that you have to provide adequate space

                    into that area to maneuver into that parking

                    space, there is your performance spec.  Those

                    are going to axle spacing and turning radius.

                    There are so many different variations of

                    wheelchairs and scooters out there, you will

                    never cover them all.

                                                                          60



                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Right.  And that is the

                    problem.  Because if you take a typical

                    wheelchair geometry of fixed axle that is

                    somewhere in the middle of that 54", just off

                    the center of it and caster type wheels that

                    provide a lot of maneuverability in a very

                    short space versus a four-wheel vehicle that is

                    steering like an automobile fixed axle way

                    toward the wheel of it, those are creating very

                    different geometries.  And what I worry about

                    is that we will have lack of definition.  We

                    will not have set enough criteria for the

                    conditions.

                         In other words, you may then be able to --

                    like Frank said, if you take a foam core box

                    and impose it on a more common wheelchair

                    geometry, you can maneuver that pretty well.

                    And if you say, "Okay; now let's define our

                    maneuverability."  Okay; the first time someone

                    shows up in a device that is a four-wheel

                    scooter, their geometry is completely

                    different.  They may not have the maneuvering

                    space that we require.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  That is exactly right.  That

                    is what Ed's recommendations say and rules say.

                                                                          61



                    You have to decide what percentage of people

                    you are willing to exclude.  And I think Ed's

                    recommendation exclude a small percentage and

                    allow others.  That is why you have to adopt a

                    number -- I think it was Frank who said you

                    can't design for every wheelchair, that is

                    right too.  You can't say for this chair you do

                    this and in this case you do this.  The way out

                    of it is what Bob said.  You have to pick what

                    is the greatest need, maybe not to the 100th

                    percentile.  You pick that and that is your

                    basic requirement.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Let me throw this out so

                    we can at least have a goal here or path to a

                    goal.

                         If we take -- back to my last

                    conversation.  If we take the 32 x 54 and do

                    some studies and say, okay, let's see what

                    space that requires, is that what we have to do

                    next to come up with the numbers?

                         MR. STEINFELD:  I don't think we need to

                    do that.  I think we need to take a little

                    look -- there are not that many, but some floor

                    plans of different type of rail cars; light

                    rail, heavy rail, commuter rail and inner-city.

                                                                          62



                    And not the old cars because no one is building

                    those anymore, the newer type, the newer model

                    and see what the issues might be in fitting

                    these spaces in.

                         I think one important issue is whether

                    these spaces are together, whether they are two

                    or one or whether they are together or could

                    they be separated.  I think those discussions

                    have to be had.  And then we can look at

                    where -- I think we need that six inches at

                    least for maneuvering space.  But the question

                    is where do we need it and then how much space

                    can be allocated -- how much toe space could be

                    used.

                         We have data on the toe clearance needed

                    and we know that the nine inch is too low to

                    accommodate a lot of people.  And that is

                    another issue.  I didn't get into that level of

                    detail.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I think the problem of going

                    about it that way is what Steve said.  The

                    design of the rail cars is so variable.  We

                    have a rail car that has two and a half walls.

                    So do you really need to have six inches

                    available on an area that is only three inches

                                                                          63



                    wide on one side?  You are only going to know

                    that if you try to do the maneuvering.  And I'm

                    leaning toward what Blair is saying.  If you

                    take one or two different types of axle

                    positions and one is a standard wheelchair and

                    one of them may be a standard mobility device

                    and you say, okay, look at these two devices

                    and see if you can make an accessible path

                    using these two types of maneuverability

                    defined by the axle spacing.

                         <<<:  This is not just an engineering

                    problem; it is a user problem as well.  A lot

                    of people can't maneuver very well.  So you

                    really have to look at the ability of the

                    individual as much as the engineer.

                         MR. MALDARI:  That is variable.

                         MR. REUTER:  Right.  I think this

                    discussion is not grounded in what the

                    realities of these cars are out there.

                         So I think if we can get an assortment of

                    different cars, even if it is 10, let's see

                    what is out there and what the issues are and

                    try to figure out what the best places would

                    be.

                         I think the concerns -- I think there is a

                                                                          64



                    lot more space than we might think.  I might be

                    wrong about that.  In some cases I think there

                    won't be enough space and we need to think

                    about that.  In other cases I think we might

                    actually find this is not an issue.

                         I know on a lot of the heavy rail rapid

                    transit cars and the light rail cars, I don't

                    think this is an issue.  I think it is really

                    about intercity, maybe commuter rail too.

                         MR. MALDARI:  For the most part in

                    commuter rail, there is only as much space as

                    you need, rarely more than you need, because

                    every square inch of space is for seating

                    passengers.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  One of the points I was

                    trying to make, better articulated by others

                    than me, if we talk about it in terms of where

                    flip-down seats or other types of arrangements

                    could be made, then it will only benefit

                    passengers, all passengers.  Like I pointed

                    out, where you have adjustability, you also

                    could have more standing room when you don't

                    need to accommodate someone who is using a

                    wheelchair.

                         So I think we need to look at this from a

                                                                          65



                    holistic perspective, not like where will we

                    put the clear floor spaces, but where will we

                    put the baggage and this and that.

                         Very well to say there is no room, but the

                    point is people do bring stuff on the train.

                    You can't stop them from bringing in a lawn

                    mower.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  To that end, I think we

                    had some limitations on fuel powered devices.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  The point is you can't

                    very well say, "Okay; no luggage on a train."

                            (Simultaneous Discussion)

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  We sell spaces to people

                    carrying violas and cellos and big instruments

                    they love more than anything else and they buy

                    a ticket for it.  Again, we get back to the

                    geometry.  And the geometry is real but you

                    made a very good point, Ed, and Dennis made a

                    very good point.

                         If you look at it purely from maneuvering

                    a device, I can take -- I'm not a good parallel

                    parker.  I can park some days.  Really good

                    with automobiles.  And other days I feel like

                    I'm just in driver's ed.  But there is a

                    reality that some folks will be able to come up

                                                                          66



                    and maneuver into an extremely confined space.

                    And other people will, for various reasons,

                    will have to do a lot of maneuvering, maybe

                    even with the exact same device to get into

                    that space.

                         So I think it is a safe thing to say that

                    over-maneuvering has to be avoided because it

                    doesn't work for so many people.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Maybe this big box we build

                    has to be radioed controlled.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  You could take a box with

                    scooter geometry and wiggle it back and forth

                    enough times to put it into almost any space.

                    You wear the carpet out in the process but you

                    can do it, but that doesn't mean it is a very

                    practical maneuvering process.

                         And then we get into, I think what we have

                    seen where we have defined spaces and geometry

                    devices could change.  We have maneuvering

                    issues that have grown and have ferreted out

                    such things as the toe clearance dimensions not

                    being adequate and those sorts of things.  We

                    have tended to rely on overlapping dimensions

                    to preserve space in the vehicle.  And now we

                    know after watching it for 20 years that that

                                                                          67



                    doesn't always work very well.  So I don't have

                    a problem with the concept of increasing the

                    unencumbered space or raising the toe space.

                    It makes us have to be a little more creative

                    about some of the overlapping devices.

                         But, again, I think the critical question

                    is how do we go forward?  Is the next exercise

                    to graph out a path?  This path would be --

                    realistically, if you are entering the side of

                    a train and go to any position, whether it is

                    5 feet away or 15 feet away from that door,

                    there is geometry that is going to occur and it

                    is going to establish space on the floor that

                    can't be encumbered.

                         So is the next exercise to nail the space

                    down?  Again, do we nail down a performance

                    spec or do we nail down space?  If we nail down

                    space, we need to do the homework of running

                    the geometry, and running the wheel geometry

                    and not "if I wiggle this thing back and forth

                    enough I will get into the space."

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Marilyn and I are both on

                    the ICC/ANSI building standards committee.  And

                    this has been dealt with quite well, I think,

                    in buildings with the term "accessible route",

                                                                          68



                    defining accessible route and identifying the

                    features along the accessible route, what

                    constitutes the nature of that accessible

                    route.  Maybe we can have a subcommittee

                    grapple with this, and maybe Marilyn and I and

                    Marsha, who is also on the committee, and

                    others who might want to be on that, so we can

                    draft some language.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Does that make it a

                    sub-subcommittee?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Someone in the Access

                    Board tell us what does it do to us.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We may call it a task

                    group.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Or working group.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Or working group.

                         <<<:  For purposes of working on this it

                    is --

                         <<<:  We don't have to call it anything.

                    People can get together and do the homework.  I

                    need to ask a favor of our good friend on the

                    transit side from Jersey Transit.  You guys

                    have access, ready access -- maybe Steve

                    Roman -- to some dimensional floor plans or

                    some of the light rail and other than

                                                                          69



                    intercity rail vehicles to give some basic

                    floor dimensions?

                         MR. ROMAN:  We might have some plans for

                    those.  They are basic, but they do show the

                    floor arrangement.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  If we can get as many as

                    we can and put them on a drop box or Board site

                    and we can access them that would be great.

                         <<<:  We have two different vehicles and

                    (inaudible) and they are very generous.  I

                    don't know if they will be assisting because

                    the space is very large.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  Just so we can look at

                    them and know what we are talking about.

                         MR. ROMAN:  Even on the large space, in

                    San Francisco they have -- group of people

                    upset over transit entryway on BART.  Even with

                    the joy about amount of space you can get hung

                    up on things.

                         MR. CANNON:  We need to talk about clear

                    floor space and not just space.  And

                    (inaudible) is not a part of clear floor space.

                    I have seen a number of diagrams of number of

                    cars and very few, if any, I have seen have

                    dimensions on them.

                                                                          70



                         So we really need something that has

                    numbers associated with it.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Thanks.  That is why I

                    said we need either dimensioned, or

                    dimensionable documents.  It is easy enough if

                    it is a truly something with dimensions on it.

                    It is easy enough to drop a grid on it so

                    people understand the space.

                         The reason I say that, if we form this

                    working group to look at the building side and

                    report back, some hallways in buildings are as

                    wide as transit vehicles in public spaces.  You

                    can very quickly lose touch in reality with a

                    rail vehicle.

                         The typical floor space on intercity car

                    is somewhere in the foot range, without

                    structuring and those sort of things.  That is

                    really best case position.  (Inaudible) is more

                    because the car outside is (inaudible) at the

                    widest and you take away structure and

                    (inaudible) you are at the nine to six foot

                    range on the floor.  And then there is other

                    things obviously that occur on the car that can

                    effect the usable width.

                         There are light rail vehicles out there,

                                                                          71



                    street cars, things like that are much more

                    diminutive with that width.  So I don't want to

                    run too far without looking back at that.

                         So anything that folks can contribute is

                    appreciated.  I don't know -- I tell you what.

                    If you can email them and I will let Melissa or

                    someone else tell us if they want to go to the

                    Board and then to me.  If I can get them and

                    they are dimensioned or already CADD data, I

                    can drop them into a PDF with one foot floor

                    grid dimensions on them and look at them.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Let's email those to Paul

                    since he is our point of contact.  And also

                    David Nelson is wanting to speak and has not

                    had a chance to jump in.

                         MR. NELSON:  This is David Nelson.  I have

                    been trying to get in for almost the last 20

                    minutes.  I don't think it is fair other people

                    have been trying to get in.  So I was wondering

                    if we can give the remaining 10 minutes if

                    there is anyone else on the phone if they have

                    something else they wanted to say.

                         There are two things I wanted to say and I

                    forgot them, to be honest.  I'm sorry.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  When you remember, let us

                                                                          72



                    know and speak up.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Forward it on and I will send

                    it on.

                         MR. NELSON:  I did forget because I tried

                    to speak for the last 20 minutes and didn't get

                    a chance.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Just to speak to David's

                    dilemma, which should not be.  I understand the

                    committee is trying their best to provide for

                    everybody, I want to take that into account.

                    Maybe we can find a better way to not put David

                    and other people -- other similarly situated

                    participants in that position.

                         MR. BEATTY:  At the beginning of the call,

                    I reminded people to send an email to RVAAC --

                    in fact that is what David did about five

                    minutes ago -- and I let Melissa know.  For

                    those who want to jump in and there is a

                    problem, please remember the RVAAC email

                    address and say, "Hey, I want to jump in" even

                    if you are tied to the CART system.

                         MS. BUNALES:  If you have to hail the

                    operator to do that, you can still do that.  I

                    want to say it is star or pound zero?  That is

                    an option as well.

                                                                          73



                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  What I want to suggest,

                    because we are running up against the 3:00

                    hour, if David remembers what he was going to

                    say, jump in, please.  I will have to harass

                    him about that later because we are not too far

                    away from one another.

                         What I would like to suggest is that we

                    have a number of items on the agenda, on board

                    circulation, that we have not even touched.

                    What I would like to give is homework to

                    everyone, following Jim's lead on the

                    communication side.

                         If you look down on the list of items and

                    jot down some notes about them, what you think

                    they should be and what the biggest concerns

                    are, I would be glad to compile those and get

                    them to where we can really start to chew on

                    them and maybe be a little more productive the

                    next time around as we get to those particular

                    items, we will have that information in front

                    of us.

                         So as far as this Working Group goes, is

                    what we want to do is have this Working Group

                    look at the clear path requirements based on

                    what is going on with the ICC ANSI work?

                                                                          74



                         <<<:  Blair, which list were you referring

                    to?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Onboard circulation.  It

                    was Item 5 and 5.1 and 5.1.2 and so on.

                         <<<:  In the agenda?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  In the agenda, yes.  We

                    have talked about vestibules.  We have not

                    gotten out the entrance and the path to the

                    accessible area and floor space.  But there are

                    other items in there that hopefully won't

                    consume as much time.  If folks can give some

                    thought to that, jot some notes down, forward

                    them back, we can build a list of that

                    information ahead of the next meeting so we can

                    be -- you may be working through some of these

                    things a little quicker.

                         <<<:  Blair, what is the 5.1.3 inner car

                    passage?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  The passage between two

                    vehicles.  That varies.  If you have an

                    articulated car or transit car, typically the

                    space in the middle.  Long distance car or

                    inner-city vehicle or heavy rail transit, it is

                    going to be between two vestibules.  So it is

                    the moveable space.  It changes depending on

                                                                          75



                    what kind of vehicle it is.

                         <<<:  Quick question to Paul.  The idea is

                    to get from the seating area to dining car, for

                    example?

                         <<<:  Yes.

                         MR. NELSON:  That is why I was trying to

                    look for the right terminology.  Now I know it

                    is 5.1.3.  Does anyone know what the PRIIA 305,

                    what the new standard is for that doorway, the

                    door measurements for the exit of the

                    vestibule?

                         MR. CANNON:  I asked that last time, I

                    believe, at the meeting, and I was told it was

                    no longer restricted to 30-inches.  It was more

                    like 32; is that correct?

                         <<<:  That is correct.  It is 32.

                         <<<:  Can we get a copy of the floor plan

                    of the PRIIA car?

                         <<<:  Or even the list of rules?

                         MS. MARTIN:  You can find it online at the

                    APTA website.  The 305 committee has a web page

                    and you can find all the specifications.  I

                    don't know about how accessible they are from

                    the Access Board standpoint, but they are

                    available publicly online.

                                                                          76



                         MS. GOLDEN:  Would it be possible for

                    staff -- instead of us all searching -- to make

                    it be a material that we have?

                         <<<:  At the very least to get a link?

                         <<<:  A link would be great.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We can do that for you.

                         MR. NELSON:  Is 32-inches wide enough?

                    Because I don't think so.

                         <<<:  Even -- if it is just a doorway.

                         MR. STEINFELD:  We did a study of doorway

                    use too and we think as long as it is enough

                    clearance outside, we think people can squeak

                    through the 32.  Often it is the things that

                    are hanging off -- outside the bound of the

                    wheelchair that get in the way.  The problem

                    with the door, it is really part of the

                    maneuvering space where you are making a right

                    angle turn into the car.

                         So it if is only going to be, say, 42" in

                    the vestibule, 42" wide, that is not a lot of

                    space to get into a direct perpendicular

                    position to the doorway.  I think it would be

                    better if the doorways were wider.  I don't

                    know how feasible that is.  We can look at our

                    data.

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                         I'm trying to remember what we worked out

                    with the L-turn.  What we did in the building

                    standard, in the revisions to the building

                    standard, we actually adopted a number of

                    different options.  So if it was wider out in

                    front, then the doorway -- the width of the

                    passenger passing into could be narrower.  So

                    there are ways to do that.

                         MR. MALDARI:  ADAAG is 36 with a 32 point.

                         <<<:  Yes, that is the current ADAAG.  But

                    we have -- that was before the research we did.

                         <<<:  That is very helpful.  Thank you.

                         So, David, it seems like your intuition is

                    right on that.

                         MR. NELSON:  My concern is a lot of times

                    when we are going around a curve or something

                    like that, I'm concerned the wheelchairs might

                    be getting stuck between the two cars or

                    damaging the wheelchair.  They are going

                    through -- passing through the vestibules while

                    the train is making a turn or going around a

                    curve.  I don't know if 32 is wide enough.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Anyway, the 32 is just for

                    the door, not for the passageway or clear floor

                    space, not for anything but the one point you

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                    are going through the door.  Dennis, were you

                    saying something?

                         MR. CANNON:  I was going to say in the

                    original discussions way back when, this issue

                    of the fact that those areas are straight

                    considering when the train is maneuvering,

                    moving through a curve or anything else, in a

                    squish it is really bad.  Even going through

                    curves the dimensions changes because of how

                    the bellows work.  One of the issues is you

                    can't make it much wider because there are

                    collision posts that have to be there for FRA

                    regulations.

                         And the other one was that the FRA and

                    others wanted to restrict it so you couldn't

                    move through that, except when the train was

                    stationary.  We did not include it in the

                    guidelines but things in technical assistance

                    manual that says it is not a good idea to go

                    through that area especially when the train is

                    going around the curve.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It is not so much the

                    curve.  It is when you are moving through

                    reverse curves.  The geometry gets really bad

                    and you can actually have what the diaphragm.

                                                                          79



                    You can have those create sort of a scissor

                    action and that is not improved a whole lot by

                    making the pathway wider.  That condition will

                    occur, the function of the vehicle.  It will be

                    less the bigger the pathway is.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We are out of time and we

                    need to clarify people's homework.  And if you

                    are going to send vehicle plans to Paul, I

                    don't know exactly -- I mean, Blair, you

                    mentioned you could put a grid on them so we

                    could have the dimensions?

                         <<<:  Melissa, there are two ways to

                    manage it and one is -- well, it needs to be a

                    written dimension.  If it is a CADD file, a BWG

                    file and they are dimensionable.  You can scale

                    them and click on them and the programs will

                    give you numbers.  But there still needs to be

                    a dimension there of something that can be

                    checked.  Say, if it is in the doorway, it is

                    32-inches.  I can scale it upwards.

                         Same thing with a PDF.  As long as there

                    is a dimension called up on there through the

                    picture, I can scale from that and bring

                    everything to a common scale, add in grid lines

                    and those sort of things.

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                         MS. ANDERSON:  And we can handle CADD

                    drawings and certainly PDFs.  So anybody who

                    has vehicle specification and drawings, please

                    send those into Paul and we will pass them to

                    Blair.  That way we can keep track of what we

                    have and Blair can try to get that together

                    before our next meeting.

                         I found the APTA website and I will get

                    that sent out to everybody.  I think this

                    working group probably needs to be relatively

                    small.  We don't want to exclude anybody but it

                    needs to be a pretty focused group.  We are

                    going to have to set up a conference call for

                    that group.  We will give that information to

                    everyone because we can't -- we don't want to

                    exclude people.  But we really want it to be a

                    smaller group that is very specifically

                    focused.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Ed mentioned himself and I

                    think two other people who are already working

                    on some of the work for the building side.  Is

                    that a reasonable core group to start with, if

                    those folks agree?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  And I think Ed mentioned

                    himself and Marilyn and Marsha.  We have to

                                                                          81



                    make sure she is available to do that.

                         <<<:  Just going to volunteer her?

                         <<<:  Going to try.

                         <<<:  I think that she will be happy to do

                    it.  Of course you should ask her.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  We will double check that

                    with her.  At least Ed and Marilyn and anybody

                    else who feels they have a lot of resources to

                    contribute would be great.  And whatever they

                    come up with, we will come back to the group

                    with the discussion.  So don't think you will

                    miss something if you are not part of the

                    group.

                         And our next meeting is --

                         MR. CANNON:  I don't know if people really

                    looked at it closely but the document that Ed

                    put out when he has the proposal, which has 12

                    points, people can look at the document again.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  I agree.  You can use that

                    as a basis for a strawman recommendation.

                         <<<:  We start with that.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Start with that and before

                    the next meeting if someone has something that

                    they would like to change or make different

                    recommendations, the Word version of this is

                                                                          82



                    available on the website.  Feel free to do

                    track changes and we have Ed's original as the

                    original.  If you have other recommendations we

                    can gather all those up and maybe come up with

                    final recommendations and move forward.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Isn't Blair making the

                    strawman, though?  I see the current

                    regulations that are outlined very well and

                    probably the best jumping off point.  I don't

                    know.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  What I would like to do is

                    take the two and look at them and generate that

                    strawman.  I think it is a good place to start.

                    It is more written down than we have anywhere

                    else.  But I will go through it and look at it

                    relative to what is there now.  So we have a

                    clear understanding of what we are changing and

                    what the possible effects might be.  Then we

                    can chew on it.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  That is great, then.  Give

                    Blair a shot at it and move forward after that

                    with the recommendations.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I would like to thank

                    Dennis Cannon.  I have known Dennis for a long,

                    long time.  I really appreciate his historical

                                                                          83



                    knowledge and sharing all of what he has

                    learned through the years with us.  I think he

                    is absolutely invaluable.

                         MS. ANDERSON:  I think we need to cut it

                    off.  We will send out information you need and

                    you can send what we asked for and we will talk

                    to you all again in June.

                      (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned)