Note: The output shown below is from the 

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) 

system used in the subcommittee meeting and is 

unedited. The CART system was used to provide an 

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and 

persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time 

and available to the public on the internet during the 

meeting. 

U.S. Access Board

Thursday, April 3, 2014

(Meeting will commence at 1 p.m. eastern time)

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Welcome to the 

second meeting of the communications subcommittee 

as the CART system chat box is not available for 

subcommittee participants using only CART if you desire 

to raise a question or make a statement please use 

E-mail address RVAAC @ access-board.gov. Since we 

are continuing the meeting from March 13 the agenda in 

that meeting had a time of public comment. As

anybody may participate in the conference call there is 

no public comment period scheduled for this call. I am 
turning it over to Jim Pecht now and other introductions 

around the table should be made

>> JIM PECHT: Do that now Paul.

>> LISA FAIRHALL: Lisa Fairhall, accessible staff

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Melissa Anderson.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Marsha Mazz.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Those on the line can you indicate 

who is there?

>> Glenn Millis with Metro.

>> Lisa Hamlin Hearing Loss Association.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay that's all, we have two 

people on the line Jim I will now turn it over to you.

>> JIM PECHT: Okay. Ms. P. sends regrets, she has a 

family emergency, I am going to take it from there, this 

is basically continue our discussion on the various types 

of signs looking through the categories and looking at 

the examples that Mr. Slaughter gave us and go with the 

discussion. Next up is category the third category 

down designation signs for elements. This is going to 

be a short meeting if you guys don't say something.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Here is your opportunity Lisa and 

Glenn take it away.

 (LAUGHTER)
>> Well, actually I don't have much to say I think a lot 

of these categories are going to be for -- for either 

Braille or not for Braille kind of thing and that's outside 

of my purview here. So, maybe we should just run 

through it quickly. Wait -- maybe people are going to 

join us in a little maybe they are just delayed a bit that's 

a possibility. It might only -- if we want to talk about 

the signage that can be changed we can talk about that 

or we can just wait for people to talk about the other 

categories.

>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul speaking just for the 

benefit of Phillip -- Andrew Phillips as the CART system 

chat box is not available for subcommittee participants 

using only CART to participate if you desire to raise a 

question make a statement send your E-mail statement 

for question to RVAAC @ access-board.gov.

>> Hi there, this is Andrew, I am connected through a 

sign language interpreter so I have both capabilities so I 

hear on the phone as well as the interpreter I will try my 

best to participate and get all of the information. Also, 

I do have one comment to make, I wanted to share 

about a bad experience on Metro yesterday because I 

wasn't able to get all of the information the important 

pertinent information I was supposed to get on time. 
So I was wondering one or two minutes do I have time to 

share about what happens do I have one or two minutes 

to share about what happened?

>> JIM PECHT: Sure. Go ahead.

>> Okay. That's fine. I was riding the Metro bus 

from Silver Spring and I was going to the NAD office. 

Going to Gallaudet University and we had a meeting 

there at Gallaudet. And I was taking the ride on the 

Metro. And then they had a delay. And then it was at 

Catholic University of America is where the delay was 

out. We had announcements on the bus I didn't know 

what they said. Announcements I knew the train 

passed Gallaudet passed the Metro stop. So I got off at 

the next stop Union Station. So I got off at Union 

Station, and I caught another one going in the opposite 

direction. And so my train passed Gallaudet again a 

second time. And so we went to the next stop again I 

got off and back at Catholic University, stopped there. 

And then I had to wait for the next train to go south 

another -- again another opposite direction going back 

to Gallaudet University. And I waited and I waited. I

tried to talk to the person who was do the PA 

announcements at Union Station. And so, we had to 

wait. I had to wait twice for the train I got on the first 
train because I didn't really know when the first -- that I 

was going to pass Gallaudet.

So, then I got off at Catholic station I asked the people 

around me to help me. I felt really, really helpless. 

And I felt like some people, you know, other people 

were really rude to me. And they gave me an awful face 

like when I asked for help they weren't want to go help. 

So, I finally asked somebody about the announcements 

on this train and when it was going to stop at Gallaudet 

or if it was or wasn't. They didn't say anything so I had 

to wait.

And then finally someone came up and said it will be 

getting off at Gallaudet wait for the second train. So I 

looked up at the visual information screen, and it was an 

interactive informational screen. So, they had said they 

are having problems near Rhode Island. And so, or 

near Rhode Island station. They didn't give me any 

information which train to take fortunately another 

person was there to help me I got on the second train 

that's when we were finally able to get off to get to 

Gallaudet it took me 30 minutes, I was 30 minutes late 

to my meeting. You know, I was hoping that my story 

will inspire some of you guys to change these ways so 

that people like me don't have to suffer those kind of 
negative experiences. And so, you know, and I know 

another deaf person too who has rode the Metro bus a 

half hour after me with a similar experience. The bus 

kept going on and on it lasted a couple of hours that 

was yesterday.

>> This is Lisa. A couple of things. First of all, I

think your story really does show the need for the 

display that changes and can be interactive in real time. 

But the second is interpreter clarification there were a 

couple of times when the interpreter said Metro bus but 

it was my impression that you were only on a train.

>> Oh, I apologize, yes, Metro train.

>> Lisa: Okay.

>> Sorry about that. Okay. Train. Thank you.

>> If I may, this is Glenn Millis from Metro. Do you 

have my -- my E-mail address? I would like to get the 

specifics on that because if there is Metro personnel 

involved I would like to follow up on that for you. It 

shouldn't happen. We have some processes in place, 

and to advise people of what is going on in the Metrorail 

when we are having problems. And granted they are 

not perfect, they don't display all of the information 

everyone needs, they are designed to display the 

information that we think are going to -- is going to 
benefit the most people. In this case it didn't meet your 

needs. The pit signs are up there when there is service 

outage or interruption they are up there but they may 

not tell you the next train coming is not in service or you 

may have to wait two trains. So we try to display that 

information along with the announcements in the 

station. We do have it on our website. If you go to the 

website we give rail and bus alerts. That can provide 

sometimes a great bill more detail.

>> Good. Thank you for saying that.

>> Or through a computer or if you have a 

smartphone, through your smartphone if you have a text 

phone it will do that with service announcements.

>> I will E-mail you all of the specifics folk 

sure -- for sure.

>> Thank you. The last thing I want to say people 

are always better -- we have station managers and I 

would hope that they would do what they are trained to 

do if someone has a -- who has -- cannot hear 

announcements in the train needs to get information, 

the best place to get it from is the station manager. 

And you know, they don't know signing but they can pull 

out a pencil and piece of paper and they can 

communicate. And share information. If he knows it 
then he can share it with you. But, again, I apologize. 

You know what I would like to do more than anything 

else is find out what happened to you, and if you could 

give me the specifics then I am Gmillis @ WAMATA.com.

>> (inaudible)

>> For purposes, to make sure I understand this 

(inaudible), because I used to sign up for it, and I 

removed it because I don't use Metro enough the 

subway. But it got to the point where I got so many 

alerts especially when not riding. I don't know if the 

same goes for Andrew. But both of us occasionally use 

the Metro, the alert might not be beneficial because it's 

constant when we don't use it.

>> Well, that -- that can be

>> It goes to the smartphone. And you know the 

option is also available. It also depends on where the 

barrier is because my sprint carrier, I don't have the 

capability to access Internet from a lot of the inside 

stations.

>> Right. This is Lisa. Let me just add to this. 

That inside the station we are talking also for the 

purposes of this meeting we are talking about in the rail 

car. Okay? If we had signage that was capable in real 

time to say, we are skipping this stop. And that could 
be on a menu that's canned. I could imagine doing 

that. Or again, Amtrak is looking at systems that can 

be visual signage that the -- in this case the station 

manager but, again, I would much rather see it again, 

we are looking at rail cars not the station for this 

committee. So, having that on a rail car and instead of 

depending on first of all we have no authority to look at 

you know what is going -- my understanding we have 

no authority to talk about what is going on with 

somebody's smartphone but whoever it was that was 

speaking was saying you don't always get a signal on the 

smartphone. I have to back up what Andrew said. I

was on -- in a situation where there was an emergency, 

we were taken off the train, and there was no 

information but I don't blame the station manager. 

Because there was one guy who was dealing with all of 

these passengers, and who was dealing with the 

emergency services personnel at the same time how 

could we tell me everything. If it was on the train itself 

or on the situation frankly I need both, but we can't deal 

with both, but saying this is what you -- this is the 

situation, this is what to expect, what was happening 

was the rumor mill was going on I had a better 

experience than Andrew because people were talking to 
me. But they couldn't figure out what was going on 

either. It was emergency from emergency situation, it's 

visual, and I can't remember the name for it I am look 

for my piece of paper. But the kind of signage that 

changes and changes in real time is hugely important.

>>

>> MARSHA MAZZ: This is Marsha Mazz Lisa thank 

you for bringing the focus back to the rail car itself. 

Just as a point of information, there already is a 

requirement in the buildings standard where 

information is audibly presented in the station. It also 

has to be visibly presented. And I think, Glenn -- and I 

think Glenn understands that, the information that was 

presented on the visible sign may not have been really 

equivalent to what was presented audibly. And that is 

something that if the committee does choose to -- to 

recommend some kind of visual messaging system 

within cars, you will probably want to address in some 

detail in terms of what you expect that information to 

contain and how you expect that information to relate to 

what is being presented audibly.

>> Thank you Marsha, that is a help.

>> Oh, I have to agree with the fact that I don't think 

there are any subway systems although we are 
taking -- we are talking about primarily inner-city rail 

and what not. But I am not sure there are any subway 

systems that have real time visual displays that provide 

the kind of detailed information that we are talking 

about. I think it would be a great benefit to everyone 

it's just something that is not here yet.

I would say this, for those who do rely on the rail 

alerts you can customize how much information you get 

limit to one railroad or line whatever. I think you can. 

And during certain times of the day to keep from being 

overload he had. I do it with the elevator outage 

application on the website. Because I do need to use 

elevators when escalators aren't working. And so, you 

know, there are ways to constrain information. 

But -- we do not have a way currently on the train to tell 

you anything of the sort that is being requested other 

than audible announcement.

>> This is Chris Hart. Glenn, I wanted to just make a 

note that at least (inaudible) to send out real time text 

and audio messaging to either one symbol or one line 

or -- so, the technology exists.

>> This is Frank Maldari. I think you stopped talking 

Chris I didn't want to cut in on you. The technology --

>> Yes, I did.
>> The technology you mentioned we have 

something similar now you can send a message and can 

create one. But try to go get it to the exact car on a 

specific train or a specific train on a line is not as easy 

as it might seem. To do that reliably and making sure 

you don't get the wrong car and give the wrong message 

to the wrong train currently is not an easy thing to do. 

It would be a lot easier just to have a canned message 

on the train. And get the crew to use the same type of 

message. The problem is, you know, problems and 

situations are very variable. And the information that is 

coming along the radio is not always what you would 

expect and can have a canned message for.

So, ideally you would like to -- the visual signs to 

have exactly what the audio messages are. But it's not 

an easy thing to do. I mean, this CART system works 

only so good as it does now you understand going from 

speech to visual is not an easy thing to do. So, yeah, 

people do it they are trying to make it but if you limit all 

conversation to only what you can repeat on the visual 

sign you will be limiting the information of information 

that you can provide. And I don't think that's what you 

want to do. You want to get as much information out 

to as many people as possible, using the means that you 
have available. And, right now, you don't have an 

accurate real time speech to text converter that you can 

rely on. I don't think it's a good idea to limit the 

information that you are giving out. You try to say if 

there is a delay you can put a visual message that 

interest there is a delay up. But the additional detail 

you try to give to make most of the people know what is 

going on shouldn't be limited by what you can put up 

visually.

>> This is Lisa, what about the idea of rolling this out 

over time, for example? Making some kind of 

recommendation that says: This is not available now, 

but what is available now -- for example, something 

simple. I go to the-- I go to Shady Grove all the time 

when it stops at groves nerve I have to basically watch if 

everybody is getting off let's say I should be looking at 

the train coming in I get that but -- but if I was reading 

and I get on I don't know which train I am on or 

somebody who has never ridden the line they get there 

if they can't hear the only way I know for sure is if 

everybody else leaves I am at Grovesner, I better get off. 

If there was a sign end of line here it is. And some 

clever guys do things like flip the lights on and off that's 

not consistent either. Those are the kind of messages 
say let's roll it out. Let's say that are X kind of things 

that we can predict that might happen. And that we 

need to train our people to use under certain situations. 

And then say, also, because the other thing that we find 

with technology is if there is a request for it. You have 

some clever guy out there saying, oh, there is going to 

be a market for this product, let's figure out how to 

make this happen. And they do it. So, I mean, 

even -- I think the Amtrak is not voice-to-text, I think 

what happens is the managers types in the message 

obviously it has to be a brief message that goes up on 

the board at the same time somebody is saying it. 

Those kind of systems seem to be totally doable. We 

are not looking for something complex like we are 

having a meeting and the CART writer is trained to 

provide text as I am speaking, but a short message to 

get out and make sure that it's similar if not exact to 

what is going on, in an emergency particularly but even 

get off this train right now -- those kind of things could 

be canned I think.

>> Yes, this is Gary Talbot could I chime in for that 

on a moment that's a great point exactly what 

(inaudible)

>> JIM PECHT: Gary Jim Pecht could I pull us back we 
are getting far afield from the agenda. I sort of 

recommend we leave the discussion when things are 

audible they need to be visual and vice-versa as a more 

general discussion we do under the communication 

subcommittee sometime at a later date and go back to 

focus inch on the signage issue if I could persuade you 

to do that I would appreciate it. If we could get back to 

the categories, and look at what we are -- whether we 

should deal with visual or visual and tack tile or audible 

or VMS sign or anything like that.

Get back to the designations and the non-emergency 

informational and operational and informal and 

emergency information mall operational signs in the 

built environment would be visual only if they were 

required to be -- to have anything at all. But can we 

sort of steer the discussion back to those signs and 

leave the other discussion for another day? And I hear 

crickets.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MARSHA MAZZ: They were finally talking.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Well, this is Gary Talbot. The only thing I would 

say Jim I think it is important for people to understand 

that having an emergency message pre-canned in text 
that and voice rather that in text I should say that you 

would have that automated audio that goes out and then 

your signs play the same thing whether there is a fire 

you immediate to evacuate or anything else I think folks 

need to understand that that capability is already there. 

People are doing that today.

>> This is Frank. I think it's a good idea what you 

are suggesting Jim I think there is more conversation to 

be had in the area we can get back to the signs.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Do we have a number of new 

people who have joined?

>> Yes. Blair Slaughter just joined. 

>> Okay.

>> (inaudible) Bombardier just 

joined.

>> Great. Anybody else?

>> JIM PECHT: I know Gary is out there.

>> I'm sorry, Gary Talbot.

>> And Chris is out there. And Frank Maldari

>> David Nelson is here.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Do you have a list of people 

you want to read through it ask if anyone is there.

>> Lisa Hamlin. We have now listed everybody that's 

on.
>> Okay.

>> JIM PECHT: All right. So, getting back to 

designation signs for elements if this were in the built 

world covered at all it would be a visual sign only. So, if 

you look at the signs, which Mr. Slaughter had provided 

we chose a sign for cups with Braille underneath it, and 

like I say the only thing I have ever had with issues with 

Braille is that is nice, but how do you find that sign. 

And, discussion.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Well, this is Blair. The expectation normally this 

would be in the vicinity of where the faucet or the sink is 

depending on configuration. The problem that we have 

sometimes in the trains because of the space limitation 

is that things aren't always in the place that we would 

obviously -- that they would obviously be in the built 

environment. So, that's why we sometimes point out 

what would otherwise be -- would need no direction or 

pointing out. It may be that the cup dispenser is under 

a ledge or something where it would not normally be 

but that's the space we have available. If the idea 

would be that it would be within the vicinity of maybe 

where you would expect the cups to be or you know, 

near the countertop or something along those lines and 
it varies by application.

>> JIM PECHT: And Blair this is Jim you don't get it 

with the built environment either. You expect it 

hopefully to have the towel dispenser near the lavatory it 

may not be but on the wall behind you if you don't know 

that you have wet hands feeling and for the towel 

dispenser.

>> Right. 

>> JIM PECHT: It's not just simple -- just -- it 

happens in the built environment as well.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I think arguing either 

for -- arguing neither for nor against this -- this is 

Marsha. The question I think the committee has to 

resolve is whether a sign like this that would not in the 

built environment be required to have raised letters in 

Braille is there a compelling reason to require it to have

raised letters and Braille in the rail environment and 

that -- you know, we want to distinguish between what 

might be required and best practices. Certainly, I think 

that nobody is going to disagree that it is definitely a 

best practice to do what Amtrak has done here. And 

the question is whether the committee wants to 

recommend adopting that best practice as a minimum 

requirement or not.
>> I think that's a good point Marsha. What is 

concerning to me is if you look through the decals that 

Amtrak did even the ones that they tried to make 

accessible are not meeting the regulations. And if we 

are allowed to meet -- to provide the additional 

information without it being a requirement, it makes it a 

lot easier.

>> The issue with having to know the sign is there in 

order to require it, I think is a very good point. And 

that's what was followed with the buildings and I think 

the same thing should be followed with the vehicles. 

That doesn't preclude the authorities from requiring 

additional signs that have Braille. We got 187 decals in 

our car. 187 decals.

>> Is that all?

 (LAUGHTER)

>> if every one of those decals were ADA compliant I 

submit to you there would be no clear floor space wall 

space ceiling space in the cars there would be no 

windows. One decal I tried to look at we have 

directional informational sign on the windows that tells 

you how to remove the window rubber. Right now the 

sign is about two inches by four inches it goes on a 

window two feet by four feet. If I made that sign 
compliant there would no longer be a window. When 

you require things, because you think it would be a nice 

thing to have recognize and you add in all of the 

additional baggage that comes with making it an 

accessible sign you wind up creating more problems 

than you originally anticipated. And that you really 

wanted to do. That's not the intent. Whereas, you can 

put Braille and raised lettering on a lot of the signs, 

without it being 100% compliant with the regulations 

and still have some means of accessibility without 

meeting the letter of the law. And provide the 

additional accessibility that you might want without it 

being overwhelming to the car's interior. And I don't 

know if everybody realizes 187 decals are already on the 

cars. And we typically put another couple of decals on 

every year because of some issue.

>> This is Lisa could you identify who was just 

speaking? I ask people to identify themselves please

>> I'm sorry that was Frank Maldari.

>> Thank you.

>> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think Frank is right 

on a lot of points obviously different modes are going to 

do things sort of according to the business they are in. 

And I think we do need to focus on what is most critical 
as far as the information that needs to be -- needs to be 

required to be communicated. And then have leeway 

within the different authorities to do what may be more 

appropriate for their conditions. I wouldn't -- I 

wouldn't assume for a lot of folks that you know simple 

things that we have -- we have done would necessarily 

be required and in some cases, wouldn't even make 

sense because the -- while you are looking for the sign 

with Braille and raised letters you find the cups as an 

example. But, you know, we went that route because 

we had a lot of areas that were not always obviously. 

And we -- when we reached out to see about the letter 

height and we have got smaller letters than are required. 

Or at the bottom of the range, the comments that we 

got back were there that if some of -- something is not 

required, but yet it's -- it's within the lower end of the 

range having it in any form is better than not having it. 

So, that was what we used as a our driver and that led 

us -- let us deal with the spatial issues shall better. 

One of the things we should talk about at some point is 

the hierarchy of where you would go down to the lower 

range, is it a safety issue? Is it convenience issue? 

Those kinds of things. But I guess the first thing we 

need to do is decide what needs to -- to fall into the 
category of tactile and visual. Sort that out first.

>> This is Lisa is there anybody on the call who is an 

expert in Braille signage?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes, staff are.

>> I mean, from the committee. I mean, obviously 

you are but I mean somebody from the committee who 

is an advocate for Braille.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Your committee chair is and 

unfortunately was unable to attend.

>> Lisa: I am wondering if it makes sense to come 

to decisions without her input.

>> This is Gary Talbot, I can just share with you what 

we did at the MBTA. We did a lot of raised character 

Braille signage on board vehicles. Wayfinding. Whole 

bunch of stuff. A lot of experience with the two main 

methods that you use for raised character Braille 

signage, you know, from spaces to accessible spaces, to, 

like I -- like I said, wayfinding with arrows and 

directional, and stuff like that. And we found -- and we 

used the 2004 ADAAG kind of as a guide but at the 

same time clearly approached it from if the sign -- if the 

sign is important to convey information why wouldn't it 

be important to someone who is blind. That was how 

we approached it. We weren't able to do probably 100% 
but I bet you we got close.

>> Gary this is Blair. That was sort of the 

same -- the same avenue that we took. You know, it 

was -- you couldn't go back and find requirements but 

it was where it made sense. Obviously we wouldn't put 

raised letter tactile sign unless an electrical locker. You 

will find the shocking parts in there if you happen to get 

in there. We do have a sign on the outside that says 

don't go in there. And that is typically tactile.

>> Yeah, I agree. What was interesting to me is in a 

couple of places, and I would have to dig up my notes to 

give you the exact examples like on board rail car. 

Where we didn't feel it was -- the signs really worked. 

We ended up not putting up a sign which I felt was a 

really great solution. Because we convinced ourselves 

that oh, my God we have to have the sign here, as soon 

as we made it accessible it was like we really can't work 

out the accessible stuff we ended up in some cases 

saying we shouldn't be putting a sign up there anyway. 

And you know didn't work 100% but it worked a lot of it. 

I think that was good for rulemaking. I would hope if 

it's important enough to convey information then 

those -- to those of us with sight then it's important to 

make it accessible to those that need an accessible sign. 
>> Gary, I have a question for you on that point. And 

maybe it's a refinement that the committee needs to 

deal with (Marsha) I am looking at the caution watch 

your step with the Braille. And I am thinking you know, 

how would I use the sign? If I am reading the sign 

tactilely, I am probably reading it with my dominant 

hand. If I am reading it with my dominant hand I am 

not using my cane or holding on to my dog. For a sign 

like this, I guess I would question the practicality of a 

raised letter and Braille sign as opposed to something 

audible that, you know, warns like you see on escalators 

sometimes? Or --

>> Yes, and I think that's a great -- I'm sorry, this is 

Gary Talbot. I think that's a great comment of what we 

ran up against Marsha was just the white noise. The 

noise of the environment was so loud. So we would do 

these. I believe we did these on a level landing far 

enough away from the actual steps just to give someone 

a cue that we are walking into steps basically or walking 

to a landing where there were steps that kind of thing 

that's what we were trying to do.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. 

>> This is Blair. You know along the same lines 

though, when you are in the built environment, let's say 
escalator that's a good example, you are approaching 

the escalator, there is not likely to be another obstacle 

close by that you could miss a problem. In a rail car

environment, if you did that same thing, you may have 

multiple -- multiple things at once all saying similar 

message. You could have that going through the 

vestibule from car to car. You could have it going out 

on to the platform. I could imagine it suddenly being 

very confusing with all of these different little voices 

telling you something.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> But the point that you made about using the guide 

dog or the cane brings up a very interesting point. And 

that is, you are already -- one, hopefully the dog 

wouldn't take you to an unsafe condition. But also, 

using the cane, adds a level of sensitivity for the person 

versus what we see in our world, unfortunately, is the 

people with no visual impairments walking themselves 

into situations because they are not paying attention. 

And maybe those in some cases are situations where 

people with visual impairment are paying attention 

because it's part of their normal life. I don't know if 

that makes any sensor not but I know that I am an 

amputee when I am walking around wet surfaces I pay 
extra attention to the surfaces that I am walking on. 

Other people do not and fall. So, I don't know if that 

kind of logic works, but certainly worth thinking about. 

I wouldn't -- I have to be very careful with audible 

things in just creating the potential for confusion.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I see your point.

>> I thought that was a good point this is Frank 

again. I thought that was a good point in it -- in this 

particular decal if you can see you are more in tune with 

looking for a gap everywhere. And some of these signs 

are more for people who are not paying attention. And 

who can see. Than the person who is already you know 

paying for attention to the obstacles. So, and which is 

pointed about the audible signs 187 voices speaking at 

you is going to get very confusing. We try for this 

particular issue because we have had problems with 

people not watching their step or watching the gap in 

particular. We try to add that to the audio 

announcements that we have we try to add it in. 

Sometimes it comes across the sign too. But as a 

commuter operation you can only get so many things in 

and still be able to make station announcements which 

are the most important thing you want to know the next 

station or destination once you get on the train. The 
new audiovisual signs do a good job of that automating 

the voice and visual. And they do match up. And the 

most important information is provided that way. And 

consistently. And that should help, you know the 

average person trying to get off the train as well as 

somebody with an accessibility issue.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Is there anything on this listed 

that the members present feel could be taken off the list 

as something that everybody agrees would not -- would 

not need to be accessible? For example, the employee 

signs. Is that something that people are comfortable 

enough saying, these would not need to be raised 

letters -- raise lettered and Brailled? Or are you feeling 

that they should be acceptable.

>> This is David Nelson here. I have a question 

about the faucet sign. So I am assuming there is a lot 

of Braille on the bottom part of it, so, I am assuming 

that the Braille actually says faucet push for water, turn 

knob to adjust temperature.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I checked the Braille on all the 

signs in the handout they are all exactly what is the sign 

itself says.

>> I guess my question though -- you know what, I 

can't speak for the blind community at all, but is 
that -- is that information needed? Or to read it to say 

faucet.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I wouldn't touch it.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Wouldn't touch the sign or the faucet.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: This is Marsha. I wouldn't touch 

a sign in a bathroom.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> If you wash your hands afterwards.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> (inaudible).

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I touch as few surfaces as I can.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. The reason 

that that in this particular case the function of this 

faucet, the machinery is probably a little different from 

what people are used to encountering. Again, we tried 

to use the logic, if it was an obvious thing of the faucet 

that people are used to encountering, then we don't say 

anything. But if it's something that maybe, even if you 

see it you go okay what do I do to this thing to get out 

water out of -- get water out of it you are pushing on it 

nothing it happening. You are waving your hand under 

it, so, it's really -- we treat these things as a case by 

case. Sometimes you look at it and go wow that was 
painfully obvious why did you do that? Sometimes 

maybe it's better to err on having too much than too 

little. We try not to put it on a sign that is obvious the 

mechanics are understood by most folks. In that case it 

would be this is a strange faucet. Some of these 

devices occur not because we really want to buy 

something that is weird, but the mechanical function of 

faucets and things on trains we have freezing issues that 

you wouldn't have in the built environment because you 

don't open the doors and let things freeze. Even 

sometime the faucets end up being weird by the needs 

of the environment.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Blair, this is Marsha. I will just 

support your comment by saying that, two of us who 

have vision impairments here in our office didn't know 

that there was hot water in your restrooms for over 

three years.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Because the marking was visual. 

And the faucets are atypical in terms of how you get to 

that hot water.

>> Blair: Right. We did something good for a 

change that's great Marsha.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Two people at the table now who 
don't have vision impairments are not saying we can get 

hot water.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: I figure it out after a year.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> We were talking about something that I had to 

listen to.

>> (inaudible).

>> No. Nobody is muted.

>> We are now I'm sorry I apologize.

>> Chris Hart: This is Chris Hart. I think (inaudible) 

it finally comes down to figuring out what you want to 

recommend for tactile Braille is that it has to be -- there 

has to be buy in from NSB and all of the folks who 

represent the (inaudible). I just want to make sure 

everyone bear that is in mind. I guess we would not 

make addition of audio without (inaudible).

>> MARSHA MAZZ: So, do you folks want to tackle the 

employees signs?

>> I vote for no this is Frank I think you can take it 

off of tactile and visual. If you want to start there. I

think it's a good idea what you are trying to do. I guess 

my point that I would like to suggest, is there are certain 

signs which definitely should be tactile and visual. And 

they should be meeting automatic of the -- meeting all 
of the ADAAG requirements as far as size and where the 

Braille is located. And that should be a small portion of 

the sign. As it is in buildings. If there are other signs, 

which may be beneficial to have it, then I think either 

you make it optional or you remove the requirements 

that currently exist for 5/8 lettering and the size of the 

decal because the consequences are not what you would 

like to have with those decals. You know, we put decals 

in that have, you know, tactile, raised lettering Braille. 

We can still provide some measure of accessibility. But 

if we add those -- I consider them strong requirements 

then we are really going to make in a rail car, which is 

space sensitive, and we only have so much, we are going 

to create problems. And I know everybody would like 

to put every -- if it's available to one person make it 

available to everybody. 

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Frank, this is Marsha. There is 

not a lot of research on the subject there is some. The 

research suggests that if you get smaller than 5/8 inch 

for raised letters it's not readable. So, a provision that 

says it can be you know, a half inch or 3/8 of an inch 

would have to have some support that you are -- that 

the requirement is still -- still resulting in a benefit. 

But the research indicates that it would likely not result 
in a benefit if it were smaller than 5/8. So, maybe your 

discussion should be more around if you can't meet the 

standard, what are your alternatives rather than 

changing the standard because I, again, there is nothing 

to support anything smaller than 5/8 as being usable.

>> Yeah, this is Frank again. That's why we were 

concerned about requiring a requirement on all of the 

signs if you look at the sign that Blair has here, you 

know, it says faucet the lettering push for water is kind 

of small in comparison. I bet it's not 5/8 of an inch 

even without that I think it's giving you the information 

that you want. If you require it then you are obligated 

to also apply the additional size requirements and decal 

size requirements that's going to create a problem. 

So --

>> Chris Hart: I would like to suggest if you endorse 

(inaudible) I could help arrange so you could see how 

you could -- you could get a sense of what we able to 

do both in tactile Braille and you will 

discover -- (inaudible) ... about what we did and we find 

out about signage so I but seeing that you (inaudible). 

Without the liability -- of actually -- you want to make 

things more accessible to everyone.

>> This is Frank again. I didn't hear everything you 
said Chris, fortunately for me I got pretty good vision 

the decals that Blair puts out I think says a lot. Yes, you 

can put Braille we have some Braille on our signs too 

you can have raised lettering, and you know, when you 

go through each and every 187 decals you can look 

through them and decide which ones you could put 

them an which ones would be very difficult and maybe 

get rid of a couple of them which would be nice. But 

the problem is, when you make a regulation, and you 

require them all to be, you create a problem. So, that's 

why I am saying, if we are going to lock ourselves into 

requirements of size of the decal and size of the 

lettering we should be very careful. I think it's a good 

idea to suggest that the authorities look through their 

decals, I mean it's happening already at Amtrak without 

a requirement. It's happening at the MBTA without it 

being a requirement. If you don't put the requirements 

on you may find there is a lot more decals on the car 

with more information that is accessible than requiring 

all information be accessible.

>> This is Gary Talbot. If I could just chime in. You 

know, I love the T, I am a huge supporter of the T but 

the T had a mega hundred million settlement 

agreement. I bring that up I am not sure the T would 
have been down that path and enabled us to do that had 

that not been the case.

>> JIM PECHT: Frank, this is Jim Pecht. Just to bring 

up one thing you said about making things optional. 

Basically there is nothing that the regulation prohibits 

you from doing or going beyond. If it's not required it's 

optional. Everything is optional. I don't think you 

need to specify things can be optional unless doing a 

technical piece or doing a good design practice saying 

you might want to do this. Everything is not required 

it's optional. I would like to look at these things and 

say, okay, which one of these are some of these signs 

that can be not required to be accessible at all which 

ones are those. If they are required to be accessible to 

what extent. In other words, to me, I think at the very 

least the emergency sign should be -- should meet the 

visual requirements. Those seem to be fairly important 

and things that you want things to have at a minimum to 

have the visual requirements for a sign for -- depending 

on what distance you are looking at. Whether it also 

has to be tactile or something that is the committee's 

call to look at. It may be you want to paragraphs some 

of these signs -- parse some of these signs differently. 

You can require the pictogram to be a certain size but 
not everything else. It's up to you to look at the signs 

and make those determinations.

>> Yeah. Doing that without a regulation is easy to 

do than doing it with a regulation. And I know -- I 

know it's a difficult --

>> MARSHA MAZZ: That's a truism that you can't 

avoid. I mean it would be easier for you if there weren't 

regulations. The job of the committee is to decide what 

to recommend as a regulation. So, I --

>> This is Frank. I wasn't sure if there was an 

opportunity to put a suggestion out as opposed to a 

requirement out. There should be a requirement and 

the requirement should be clear and consistent with the 

ADAAG as it applies to the building I think that's a good 

idea that there are certain decals that fall into there. 

But the -- the feeling I get is people wanted all of the 

information and once you put all of the information on 

all of the requirements you wind up with a problem.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Frank, you use that 

recommendation you blew past one recommendation 

that's one recommendation the committee could make. 

Which is, you know, you want the signs on the train to at 

least meet the standards of the -- for the signs on -- or 

on the vehicle to meet the standards for sign ins a 
building. That's a starting point. I think that 

somebody at some point has got to throw something 

out there and we have got to work from that because I 

think that it's clear that you know, there is a 

constituency on the committee that wants more 

accessible signs and there is a constituency on the 

committee that fears that everything is going to have to 

be tactile. 

There should be some middle ground here 

somewhere. So, taking what you said, as 

a -- potentially a starting point, which is you know, if it 

would be -- if it were a building it would be required to 

be accessible might be a good place to start. So, those 

signs that identify rooms and spaces, might be a place 

to start.

>> I agree with that. I definitely agree on that one I 

definitely agree employee only signs wouldn't be 

required. Then we have the rest of the list to fill out. 

But I think we got those two boxes covered.

>> Chris Hart: Okay. I would just tell the 

committee in general, when (inaudible) BTA (inaudible) 

committee (inaudible) really wanted to know what the 

sign number is on every door. We want to know what 

end of the car we are on. So like on a light rail vehicle 
you want A end and B end. And so, you know, you got 

you can say it's 101 at A end and in some cases you can 

go a step further you numbered the doors like you do 

(inaudible). So you don't have to go find somebody to 

ask, what time, what end am I on. (inaudible) I do like 

the idea that (inaudible) I think there is middle ground 

here where we can do more than what we are doing, do 

more than what is currently required. But as suggested, 

avoid (inaudible). To me it will be (inaudible) of that. 

(inaudible). 

>> This is Gary Talbot. I would support both what 

(inaudible) and Chris just said I think that's a great place 

to be.

>> I am going -- this is Frank. I am going to have to 

be dissenting opinion unfortunately, I don't think it's 

good to have the -- not that I don't think it's good to 

have the information I think Chris was focusing on 

employee only signs. What happens is now you 

identified the door number, when there is an 

announcement you have to also identify the car number. 

So now the person really wants to know what door he is 

allowed to go out he has to find the car number not 

knowing where it's located so he can figure out where 

the door number might be whereas the one that's 
actually not going to open. I think that's a unique 

situation. Hopefully there aren't too many of those 

failures, that's a failure condition not a normal operating 

condition. And I am assuming that you were talking 

specifically about employee only signs. If I am wrong 

then you can clarify it. The last time I mentioned 

previously was employee only signs would be one that 

everybody could agree on didn't need to be accessible. 

What the intent of the discussion?

>> You were talking about the car numbers and the 

reason that people wanted access to the car numbers or 

the car number is so that if they had a problem they 

could report it on that car.

>> Chris: That is correct. I realize we are 

discussing (inaudible) as begin to focus on other things 

like light rail, the issue of the car numbers, the doors 

rotating really are the car both tactilely and visually 

becomes really critical to report the issue or if 

you -- you hit the call box to help being able to say, I 

am at A and the car versus the B it's helpful for staff to 

know where to respond to.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim let me ask a question of the 

committee does anybody think employee only signs 

should have some level of accessibility or should they 
not be required to comply with anything?

>> This is Lisa, I feel that I have to abstain because I 

really -- I am not an expert in this area. So, I don't -- I 

would just -- it sounds logical to me but I can't say one 

way or the other.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I honestly 

can't, employee only signs, why they would -- first, they 

are not intended in any cases for passengers impaired or 

otherwise to deal with them. Simply to facilitate 

prompt an employee responding to the right place to 

service the car or turn the water off if there is a 

problem. Something like that. So, I don't see where 

there would be any need to make those signs accessible.

>> This is Gary Talbot. It makes sense to me that 

the employee only sign wouldn't have to be made 

accessible. 

I am a little uncomfortable about what others might 

feel -- I don't know why they might feel that those signs 

need to be made accessible. I am not aware Chris we 

didn't do anything on the commuter rail stuff or 

anything else for employee stuff. We exempted that.

>> Chris: Yes, that's correct.

>> This is Lisa. My question would be: If for 

example there was some kind of emergency on a train, 
you don't see any way that somebody might have to go 

through an employee area at all? And might find that 

helpful to have something that, you know, that would 

orient them? I am assuming in an emergency other 

people would be there so really it's -- but, yeah, I just 

don't know that's all I am saying. Would there be a 

situation like that.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Lisa. This is Marsha we aren't 

talking about signs in employee areas. We are talking 

about the signs where the audience or reader of the sign 

would be only employees. In other words, the signs 

that tell the employee where a particular control is.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. There is -- I 

mean, obviously there are other organizations the FRA 

and APTA that have governance over what happens on 

the railroad and the FDA or transit. And there are some 

areas that are pretty well designed about the -- if an 

area is intended for passenger egress or emergency 

access or egress any of those kinds of things then they 

have to be marked. And that falls into another world. 

What we are looking at is if there is access to turn the 

water off. There are really things that are irrelevant and 

in many cases if we could eliminate the sign being 
visible to the public at all, we probably would. But we 

have equipment that roams around in different parts of 

the country, you may have employees maybe on board 

employee who isn't trained in depth on a piece of 

equipment but works on that piece of equipment needs 

to know where a device is. And rather than fumbling 

would know where the device is. In a lot of cases if we 

could take the signs away we would take them away. 

Because we don't want the to encourage the public to 

fiddle with things either. If they don't know what is 

back there often they won't bother.

>> This is Lisa again. If that's the kind of signage we 

are talking about then I am convinced that sounds like it 

makes sense to not worry with creating Braille for that.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. I am going to put a big X 

under not required for employee signs.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: Jay. Let's move up to another softball 

he said with a snicker in his voice. Menus and 

directories. Again, in the built environment these 

would not be required to comply with anything because 

they are considered temporary and very changeable. 

Menus change, directories change when people move 

from place to place et cetera, et cetera.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: The other reason they are exempt 

in the building standards is that if you can imagine you 

know directory in a tall building which already takes up 

a wall if it were raised letters and Braille it would take up

more real estate than potentially you have in the lobby.

>> JIM PECHT: Even the visual requirement to make it 

that huge.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Exactly.

>> JIM PECHT: So, committee feelings?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: And I do know that menus at the 

cafe car, for example, was an issue that your chairman 

had a concern about. She did raise it when you were 

going around the table, and identifying issues.

>> Chris: It's important to note that DOT had to 

override Amtrak in its formal letter where the standards 

would say signage, they should look to the building 

code because (inaudible) Amtrak was various obligations 

including (inaudible) height because it claimed they 

weren't the vehicle standards. So, I hope that we 

further clarify that during this, that the public (inaudible) 

that the rail entity be cognizant of DOT standards that if 

it's not (inaudible) it should look at the actual building 

standards

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Right. But Chris Marsha again. 
The point that Jim was making and I was making is that 

the building standards right now would not require the 

cafe menu to be raised letter or Braille or tactile or in 

any way -- or even meet the visual standards. So, if we 

accept that the DOT guidance that the building 

standards are sort of the floor, the minimum, I guess the 

question then is are there compelling reasons to go 

beyond those in a vehicle such as at the cafe menu.

>> Chris: Yes, that's, I'm sorry I know I (inaudible) 

cafe car.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Right.

>> This is Lisa. The captioner is having trouble with 

Chris's voice could somebody repeat please.

>> This is Gary Talbot. I think Chris was just 

bringing to the committee's attention that on the DOT 

issue frequently asked question and document that 

states to everyone that whenever Part 37 Part 38 is silent 

on an issue, that that doesn't mean that you can just do 

whatever you want to do and he used counter height as 

an example where what DOT stated was you now have to 

go back in to the -- to like ADAAG to the U.S. DOT 2006 

to look at all of the document to find out what may 

apply. Counter height is great example 34 and 36 

inches above versus like a 42-inch counter height. And 
he was just, I think bringing that to everyone's attention. 

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I mean our 

menus on vehicles are -- they change more frequently 

than say a McDonald's. Typically they are on a monthly 

cycle. Some things are always the same just the same 

as it if--as if it would be as a chain food store. But I am 

just curious. When we are considering things like that 

that are passenger convenience does it have sort of a 

reverse spill to the building side if we start down that 

path? I assume that there is at some point that risk if 

we say, directory or menu or something has to be visual 

and tactile, it's going to fall back toward the built side of 

the world.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Blair in your first meeting one of 

the first things that I suggested that you pay some 

attention to is that very point. That the -- if you have 

inconsistent requirements, regardless of whether it's 

between a train and a building or a playground and a 

building, there has to be good justification for those 

inconsistencies based on the differing -- the differing 

venues. So, it's more a question of what is it about a 

train that makes this necessary or makes this difference 

necessary. Or a vehicle, sorry that makes this 

difference necessary. So, you know, it is a good point 
that you raise. And an important one to sort of keep in 

the back of your mind. Because we don't want to say in 

one environment this is the minimum necessary to avoid 

discrimination on the basis of a disability and in another 

environment, which doesn't present anything uniquely 

different from the first environment this is 

the -- something else is the minimum necessary to 

avoid discrimination. That leaves us open to 

accusations -- accusations of arbitrary and capricious 

among other things.

>> This is Blair again. I suppose that -- the tricky 

part is if I look at menus that you see on the railroad 

today. One of the things that that can be an issue is 

that if the graphic designer that did them isn't really 

tuned in there is not enough contrast, type sizes can be 

too small for people who have no visual issues at all or 

the lighting that is available may not be sufficient to 

illuminate a non-illuminated menu sign. Are some of 

these concerns addressable by addressing other issues 

in the vehicle lighting that is illuminating menus and 

having menus available that can be viewed more closely 

than maybe the one behind the counter. Is that 

something that we could discuss? That doesn't affects 

the printed menu that's tacked to the wall but maybe 
affects where it is or how it occurs? How it's offered to 

the public?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: This is Marsha again. You 

certainly can recommend location criteria for signs. I

think that's perfectly within our purview. I know the 

last time I went to a cafe car on the northeast corridor 

the menu was behind the counter.

>> Right.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: So, you know, not something that 

I could get up close to. But I have seen them in other 

places where they were on a return wall. When you do 

that nobody can read it over your shoulder. But that 

kind of thing is within your purview. What I would like 

to not put on the table at this point in time is anything 

relating to an alternative that is not part of the vehicle. 

That's not permanently installed in the vehicle such as a 

Braille menu that you may hand to the customer. You 

know a paper Braille menu that you may hand to the 

customer. Or a large print menu you might hand to the 

customer. Those are all things that you can and maybe 

should do. When you can't see the sign but I would like 

to see the committee focus on what should be minimally 

required in the vehicle where -- where it falls short all of 

the other programmatic kinds of solutions are really 
outside of our venue, and really belong to the effective 

communication requirements of the ADA and to the 

enforcing authorities. If that makes sense. We can 

comfort ourselves with the fact that when we don't make 

something accessible the regulations may come 

in -- you know, the ADA regulations may come 

and -- come in behind and require something 

programmatically of the entity that isn't a fixed solution 

that's part of the vehicle. But I don't think this 

committee should jump to those alternatives.

>> Chris: I think it's also worthwhile in general the 

community is always really (inaudible) to require 

interactive solutions for people. (inaudible) because the 

person (inaudible). So, as Marsha said, (inaudible) the 

vehicle is key.

>> JIM PECHT: This is Jim. I just want to reiterate for 

everybody we are talking about a rail vehicle which is a 

definable space which can be so big but no bigger 

unlike an arrival and departure directory in a train 

station where you design a two-story high space to 

meet the requirements for a very large lettered visual 

sign. You really can't do that in a vehicle. Depending 

on how much stuff you are going to put on the menu.

>> This is Blair from Amtrak. I think in thinking 
about things that can't be made part of the vehicle, 

which fall within our -- the committee's realm, there 

could be requirements for the lighting levels of where 

the menus are placed at a minute mum. I -- at a 

minimum. I think that would have a good universal 

effect. I think with something that is printed and tends 

to be market driven all of those things and changeable, I 

don't know since it's not part of the car can we require 

levels of contrast and lettering and those kinds of 

things. Some of it -- some of these things are basic to 

graphic design, and in the lack of -- in the absence of 

requirements it's up to the -- it's fairly objective or 

subjective, I'm sorry, to the designers. And often you 

will end up with text that is barely readable by someone 

who has perfect vision. Which is very frustrating. I am 

not in that really many anymore of having good vision. 

But I don't know since a menu that's printed isn't part of 

the vehicle is there anything that we can say about that 

and I ask that to the board.

>> This is David Nelson here. I recommended many 

years ago about creating a text menu. You know, on 8 

and a half or 11 -- 8 and a half by 11 paper, the LSA or 

food service people could have it ready in their cabinet 

somewhere. And then either the crew can, you know, 
borrow it or give it to the person so they can look over 

it. But, I mean, I guess that's just not something that 

has been carried out. I mean I think this is something 

that should be strongly encouraged to just develop a 

policy where it's there, you know, a company policy or 

transit policy something like that.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Again, this is Marsha Mazz. 

That's really outside of the purview of our agency. And 

therefore outside of the purview of the committee. 

Again, I encourage you to focus on the things that are 

really within our purview, and to the extent that you 

have time at the end of this process, if you want to list 

recommendations to DOT that, you know, things that 

they should consider in their regulations, certainly you 

can. But or that operators could just adopt as best 

practices, I think that's fine. If we could stick to what is 

part of the vehicle now, and not get too far afield with 

the alternatives that would be good. Regarding 

lighting, for those of you who have an interest there is a 

draft guideline on the website of the national institute of 

building sciences, and it's something that I have been 

working on with the group of people for the last couple 

of years on lighting design for low vision. Lighting is 

an extremely complicated issue, and even more 
complicated when you factor in vision loss. And along 

with lighting comes often glare, and to -- I personally 

am a bit of a -- I am at a bit of a loss as to how -- how 

to regulate the lighting in a vehicle in a manner that 

would result in a meaningful benefit. And not all 

lighting is the same in terms of how it -- how it affects 

people. What really matters is how much light gets to 

your eye not how much light is on the surface. And 

that is a whole other discussion. Illumination and the 

rest of it.

>> Marsha, this is Gary. Just -- I know you have 

shared with me over the years you often if you have 

something in your built environment regulation that isn't 

required, it's often not the best place to try and move 

that ball down the court by requiring something in like 

let's say a vehicle requirement that you don't even 

require in the built environment. From that perspective 

it seems that the menus and directories and things like 

that would be better left to, you know, to general 

ADAAG before you would try to do it in a Braille vehicle 

application is that kind of what you are saying?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: It is kind of what I am saying. 

Also, when you realize that, you know, lighting in the 

building changes throughout the day. But it doesn't 
change anywhere near as rapidly or as it would in a 

vehicle. For example, a vehicle may go under an 

overpass. It may go under a bridge. It may go into a 

tunnel. It may be passing a forested area with gaps in 

the forest. You have that strobing. You have -- you 

know there is all kinds of things that are going to impact 

lighting within a vehicle external forces. You know, not 

just the internal. But the external issues. That are 

more complicated than they are in a building. We 

haven't solved lighting for buildings yet. And this draft 

guideline that I referred you to is really just -- it's a very 

first start, I suspect it's going to be very controversial. 

It has been on the committee that I have been on.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't 

controversial throughout the entire lighting design 

community.

>> Thank you.

>> JIM PECHT: Okay. This is Jim Pecht what is the 

committee's pleasure on menus and direct trees you 

don't want them required as ADAAG or want some level 

of visual requirement or what is the committee's 

pleasure?

>> This is Lisa again. Marsha started off saying our 
chair had some feelings about this.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: She does.

>> And I am wondering if we should get her input 

before -- maybe -- from everything I have heard here 

Gee it sounds like this would be better handled by ADA 

by having something that David suggested. You know, 

having a piece of paper as things change. But I don't 

know what her concerns were unless you do Marsha?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I think her concern was simply she 

doesn't know what is on offer, and there isn't a solution 

right now. I mean, her vision is very similar to mine. 

So, we have known each other for a while. I can say 

that. You know, I totally and completely avoid all 

eateries I don't know what is on offer. I don't want have 

to order one of the two things that I heard the people in 

front of me in line order. And oftentimes the servers 

don't even speak much English. So, explaining yourself 

is always difficult. I think that if the facility were to 

offer, you know, Braille menu and a large print menu 

that would make all of us pretty darn happy. Or if they 

would even take the time to tell you what is on offer. 

But, unfortunately, there is usually a line they don't want 

to do that. And they -- then you enter into this little 

debate with the person you tell them you can't semen 
knew. So could they tell you what is on the menu they 

say what do you want.

>> Right.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Here is a question: What about something that 

did live on the side of the cafe that didn't tell you the 

monthly things have changed but tote you the universe 

of things that you could have. You know, we have 

breakfast, and we typically have some bread and some 

coffee and that kind of general things would that be 

even -- or you already --

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Those are the things we all know 

they have. Everybody have Coke or Pepsi and coffee or 

tea. So, I mean, you know what we don't know whether 

I am going to get a Miller lite or Heineken.

>> That's the question for me if there is any way to 

do that or have somebody make it programmatic as an 

ADA thing. To me trains is different than the rest of the 

world because you are a captive audience. If -- if you 

are outside in the rest of the world you could say this 

restaurant is terrible people won't talk to me. But 

another restaurant has somebody I can deal with. On a 

train you are trapped.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes.
>> and you don't have any choice. So, to me that's a 

reason for wanting to put something permanent but it's 

not a reason if it's not--as we were saying if it's not 

helpful let's try a different way of doing it.

>> This is Blair again. Maybe it's one of the things 

where we obviously are all thinking about what is right 

now, because that's what is in front of us. But every 

other day there is some new thing that is coming out in 

the electronic world. I will give an example. Years ago 

we looked at having a recorded information card that 

was almost like a card that you buy at hallmark you 

open them up it sings to you whatever. Actually a 

much larger thing that would give you a boat load of 

information about a particular train in this case it was 

the Acela. That was all a canned message. Maybe we 

can't address it now. But is it something we could say 

because we are looking at the future and at new cars 

there is some sort of the auxiliary message system that 

you could tap into? I know we are looking at an on 

board information system that may have a plethora of 

information available people could tap into. It would 

require a person has a device that lets them do that but 

maybe that begins to be a realistic way of solving some 

of the problems that where things change so often.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: Can you talk a little bit more what 

you mean by on board information system? 

>> Blair: This is purely blue sky, but if I have my 

smartphone and I have a phone that's almost smart it's 

not there yet.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Blair: I am too cheap to buy a smartphone if I buy 

a smartphone one of the things it lets me do when I am 

on the train, and you know Amtrak has WI/FI now and 

we are looking to do more -- better on board 

information system. If I can go on to my smartphone 

and pick a spot, and it says welcome to Amtrak train 

151. And I want to see the cafe options or if I push a 

number it gives me audible information push 1 cafe 

menu push 2 for station stops on this route. Those can 

be canned information perhaps that says that we have 

breakfast offering ham and cheese sandwich and then 

literally read down through the menu or build is menu 

for breakfast push 1 lunch push 2 alcohol push 3. 

Something like that. Then it would read you the listed 

and tell you what is there. I have to believe that we are 

not too far from having that kind of capability and 

maybe it could be done now, I don't know.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I love the thought. It would be 
nice if it had one of those the ability to see where you 

are in your trip too. In other words, what is the next 

stop that you are coming to. And how far along are 

you, et cetera.

>> Blair: Our WI/FI system now it's probably a visual 

thing when you log into it, or try to go online and if you 

are on our hot spot, it shows you, gives you a map and 

shows you where your train is if you watch the map you 

see your little dot on the map moving. Along with all of 

the other things that are around it. As I say, I have to 

believe we are not too far from being able to do 

something as maybe as radical as that. But I don't 

know.

>> LISA FAIRHALL: Even if you put your daily menus 

online and people could pull them down on their 

phones.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Yep.

>> Blair: There you go. And since it is typically not 

a daily thing we have some situations where there is 

daily changes, but very few. It's typically like a 30-day 

or 60-day or 90-day cycle where this is the menu.

>> LISA FAIRHALL: That reduces the burden on -- on 

the staff then.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Yeah. Blair: Right.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: Assuming that people, you know, 

know where it is and assuming that they -- the online 

site is accessible so when you use whatever device you 

are using, you know, your own personal device iPad or 

PDA or cell phone or whatever it is, with, you know, your 

own accessibility options programmed in and on board, 

if you can get to that site and if you can navigate it that 

would be wonderful. Do you have any idea whether the 

site now is accessible to, say, 508 standards?

>> Blair: I would have to default to Gary on that.

>> I'm sorry, I was multitasking.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: The Amtrak site.

>> The on board? If it was compliant to 508?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I just wanted to know whether it's 

accessible and I throughout -- I threw out 508 as a 

possible benchmark.

>> I don't know about that I don't know the folks 

doing that looked to 508. I think for the on board stuff, 

it will be, I believe it's compliant to the current like size 

and contrast and stuff like that. 

>> MARSHA MAZZ: They are not looking at WCAG it is 

compliant to WCAG 2.0?

>> Gary: I can't speak on that I have to look at the 

meeting minutes.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: That would be good to know.

>> Gary: The other part Blair was talking is very 

exciting. The technology is advancing so fast we 

should be able to in the near future, allow folks access 

to the raw data that's powering those signs and now you 

know, if you are doing like 30 minutes out from 

Baltimore, or something like that, or even you want to 

tell somebody that an elevator is out, you would be able 

to do that hopefully on board the vehicle with the using 

the message signs but make the data available so you 

can sit using your smartphone and in whatever 

tech -- form that you need the data whether it be text 

or audio you could pump it right into your smartphone. 

And then you could do really cool things down the road 

apiece of course. You could do proximity sensor 

locations and have somebody with the smartphone in 

the pocket with ear piece in it as they get close to the 

restroom it could tell them you are at the restroom there 

are all kinds of cool stuff that can be done in the future.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: So, just to kind of close the loop 

on this, if there is an on board information system, it 

certainly should be accessible. But I am not aware of 

any DOT regulations currently that address that, 

although, it's possible that they do in some way. You 
know, in which I am not aware.

>> Yes, you know Marsha that's such a great point. I

would answer it two ways. I would say what Chris 

raised earlier is why that's so relevant. DOT has made 

it very firm that anybody has to go back into basically 

ADAAG but 2006 U.S. DOT and look where else 

something like the character size and things like that so 

at least we are going to get that stuff right. Even on the 

EMS signs.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Right.

>> So the lack of existing regulations for that stuff is 

not as big an issue as it would have been for not doing 

that. In addition DOT requires if you provide visual you 

shall provide audio. So, they have closed the loop on 

the issue that we have had on ADAAG which I think is 

fantastic.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. I was thinking more in 

terms of the web -- you know the intranet or Internet 

that you know, is made available through online which 

really doesn't have a corollary in the ADA. It does in 

508. Certainly there is a standard out there 

WCAG 2.0AA which could be imposed by somebody not 

by us --

>> That's a great question. And I will -- I will try to 
track that down. I know that folks are looking at some 

of that stuff. What I think David had mentioned earlier, 

is really more of the on board communications system. 

But I don't think he was talking about like the access to 

the WI/FI and whether or not we have gone that deep 

into it. So I am -- because I am not aware of anything 

along those lines for the WI/FI stuff.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: The only reason I am even 

pursuing this is that I think that if members of the 

committee had some -- some sense that accessibility 

can be provided through another mechanism maybe not 

regulated by the guidelines, they might be more 

comfortable not requiring as much tactile and visual 

signage if you will, and using signage in the 

conventional sense on board.

>> Yeah, that's a great point. I agree with you. I

think, to me, I don't know how we regulate it but back to 

the menus for a moment. I mean, with the technology 

being what it is, why couldn't we have some type of a 

electronic means where if you are in the cafe car you 

want an audible menu, you could have the Amtrak app 

or the whatever app you know from some other rail 

provider, and be able to pump that into your iPhone or 

Samsung or whatever and get it. The technology is 
there, we just have to -- I am not so sure it's a 

regulation piece. But to your point, would it really 

make sense to push for a directory or menu to be made 

accessible if in fact we could do something like that that 

would probably be a whole lot more beneficial. Having 

said that to your point about the size of the menu that is 

there why not have a little bit bigger menu so everybody 

can see the thing, you know? That kind of makes sense 

too. But then where are you going to put it. I really 

liked your thoughts on lighting. I couldn't agree with 

you more.

I like the fact that we don't regulate lighting in the 

ADAAG, because I think it's just too difficult to quantify. 

At least at this point what you would require. And then 

if you try to cut and paste that an a rail car you are just 

spot on. You could go from sunshine in your eyes and 

you are dying you can't even see, to now you are in a 

hole. And it's just like black. You can't see anything. 

It's so dark. Bam you come out the other end and it's 

really, really bright. So, how could you -- how would 

you even -- anyway I appreciate your thoughts on that. 

I think you are spot on, on the lighting aspects.

>> This is Lisa. I didn't know about the on board 

information system and it sounds really wonderful. It 
sounds terrific for people with hearing loss as well. If I 

knew where I was on the stop I could follow it looking at 

my smartphone, which is a little smarter than my last 

phone but we are getting there. But that's the thing, 

though, is the one thing we can't forget is there is still 

people who won't have the smartphone. So, while we 

may -- I actually listening to everything sounds like 

menus shouldn't be something that we regulate but is 

there any way Marsha, we could say some things should 

be taken up by other -- you know, to me I don't want to 

let it go. I would like to have -- let it go. I would like 

somebody to look at it from the ADA saying this is 

programmatic we should give out menus and look at 

what technology should do something that we don't 

have -- it's not in our scope but somebody else might.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Yes, I think that you can do that 

you can certainly have, for example, in your rationale for 

not regulating it, you would say, you know, we are 

electing not to regulate this because of the difficulties 

associated with making it accessible in this environment. 

However, you know, we believe that the Department of 

Transportation should do X, Y and Z. And that's fine 

you are allowed to -- you know, they don't have to take 

your advice but putting your advice out there is certainly 
one step in the right direction.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. Again, 

reminding everyone that we are talking about new cars, 

and hopefully things can be taken back to old cars 

where it makes sense.

Could we look at -- if I think about the way that our 

Amtrak cafes are right now, we have menus that occur in 

multiple places. And typically they will be -- if you are 

at the counter, they are behind the attendant they are 

behind the person behind the counter. But we will also 

have on a wing wall or something the -- the same basic 

information maybe without all of the pictures and 

things, a list of the items that are on the menu. Should 

we say that menus should have an alternative views 

space that allows people to get closer to them? In 

addition to -- so, we have a minimum -- minimum 

viewing distance in addition to what we would say is, 

you know, maybe the typical placement for a menu?

>> JIM PECHT: Blair this is Jim that is certainly an 

option. Another way would be just to say it, if you have 

multiple menus, you could write the scoping in a way to 

say at least one menu shall meet the visual 

requirements. And don't specify which menu it is and 

how elaborate it has to be. If you are requiring it to 
meet the visual requirements the visual requirements 

have built into it distances, and relative to character 

height. So the further away you are the bigger, the 

closer the smaller they can be. That might be a way of 

ting -- doing it for dining cars at least one meets the 

visual requirements and leaf it up to the provider to pick 

the one and where they put it and to the extent of how 

much information they put on it.

>> Okay, Jim, I think what we typically do we will have 

let's say six placard menus viewable from the counter 

behind the attendant and then literally repeat, I think, all 

of that information in a listed format posted on another 

wall. And right now that's done sort of because if you 

are in a crowded situation you can actually see a menu 

long before you are in the space. But if we treat that as 

something that addresses the visually impaired I think 

that's a cool thing to do. We just -- and again, since 

it's -- we are looking at new designs, you can make the 

arrangement of the vehicle so that it come dates 

that. -- that it accommodates that.

>> This is Gary Talbot. I think that would be a great 

idea. Anything we could do to find out a way to maybe 

improve a little bit of what we have today without over 

con training -- over constraining would be a great idea 
on the menu idea. I don't know about the directory, I 

don't know where that would fit. For sure with the 

menu, I would think.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Do you have directories on 

vehicles?

>> Gary: I am not aware of any directly. Are you 

Blair?

>> Blair: Well, directories as -- the only thing that I 

can think of is where we looked at the signs you know 

that direct you to where certain rooms are in the 

sleeping cars, that kind of thing.

>> JIM PECHT: That's directional not directory.

>> Thanks Jim, that's how I thought those were. I

wasn't envisioning those being a directory. For a pure 

directory like 4th floor 5th floor 2nd floor kind of stuff 

I -- I am not aware of any anywhere.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I can't imagine what purpose is 

would serve.

>> Gary: Yes, exactly.

>> JIM PECHT: Is the committee good with this? 

Hearing crickets, I am going to strike the word and 

directories and leave it menus. I am going to put a big 

X in the visual requirement but put a note that says at 

least one menu.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: You have stricken employees.

>> JIM PECHT: I am just talking about menus.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: Does that --

>> MARSHA MAZZ: You need to summarize you have 

8 minutes.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: Different summary. Okay. The other 

thing we did -- let me make sure that's what I am going 

to do for menus is everybody good with that? Hearing 

no dissent we are done. All right. The other thing that 

we did is we are going to say employee only signs are 

not required to meet any accessibility requirements. 

What we sort of talked about in the last meeting was the 

directional signs should meet the, including directional 

exit signs should meet visual requirements and 

designation signs for spaces including exit signs at the 

exit itself have to meet the tactile and visual 

requirements. That's sort of where we are to date. All 

right? So, in the last few minutes, can we talk about the 

timeframe for next meeting, when you want to have it? 

When it good for you guys scheduling and that sort of 

thing? Paul is handing me something saying the next 

communication meeting is Thursday afternoon on April 
10 so never mind we will see you there. And continue 

this discussion. If everybody is good with that.

>> Jim, if I could let folks know we are doing our big 

bridge plate analysis on board the train on April the 9th 

and many of you Marsha included Melissa is going to be 

there in DC and few other folks from staff. Anybody 

else that wants to join us it would be a great opportunity 

to walk through a -- we will have a three-car, and you 

can walk through and see the different rooms and 

spaces and stuff like that. We have two coach cars and 

cafe car so you can go in the cafe car and say where 

would the sign go and stuff like that. It might be a 

really cool opportunity.

>> This is Lisa what time of day are you doing that?

>> We are try to go get folks there 8:30 in the 

morning star light room on April 9 and David Nelson 

and other folks will escort you over to, we believe track 

19 and 20, and we will have our own private train we will

have I believe a new low co-motive and two regional 

cars with a cafe car in the middle. Regional cars might 

be accessible and connected to the cafe car that will give 

us three restrooms three accessible restrooms on an 

accessible row at least train accessible route.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Gary, the purpose of this whole 
thing is to look at the new technology that you are 

considering to assist in boarding and alighting.

>> That's correct I was just thinking if folks are in the 

area and they want to just see a couple of cars where 

you would have the ability to go in, take a look. You 

wouldn't have to go with -- with us if you didn't want to 

because we are doing bridge plate testing. The cars sit 

there 8:30 until right about 10 a.m. we will pull out and 

head to Philadelphia to do the testing. If you wanted to 

go on board the train and see like the different signs 

that Blair is talking about. Or the different space or 

something like that might be a good opportunity if you 

are local.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Have you gotten any nibbles for 

the centers for independent living?

>> I have not. Calvin sent a note to me, and David 

Knight wasn't aware I sent a note to David he has three 

or four folks there.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I sent it to DOJ weeks ago.

>> I tried to follow up on that. I said no I shouldn't 

have done that I apologize. There was a person that 

contacted me that is coming and I did not get a chance 

to read his E-mail to find out exactly what organization I 

bet you he was from CIL.
>> MARSHA MAZZ: Great.

>> Right now we have about 17 wheeled mobility 

users I think and hoping for more.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Fabulous.

>> This is Lisa again if I wanted to join you where 

would I meet you?

>> Come to the star light room -- if you -- I am sure 

I can get your E-mail through David Nelson, if you come 

to the star light room it's over by the east hall, we will 

send some more exact information on that before the 

event. And just get there like 8:30 quarter to 9 

something like that. Like I said you could either walk 

through the train and see what you wanted to see 

visually or just, you know, the spaces and stuff because 

you wouldn't have to worry about being on a revenue 

train it's a nonrevenue train. If you want to go with us 

that's fine as well.

>> No I was just thinking of just doing a walk through 

and that kind of thing that would be great.

>> That would be a great opportunity. Just keep in 

mind, these two cars are going to be really accessible. 

Because they have removed about 2/3 of the seats in 

each of the two cars to make it more accessible for us so 

we can add a whole bunch of folks with disability to go 
on the trip.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I hope I don't have to stand all the 

way to Philadelphia.

>> They left 6 rows of seats in the car and seating in 

cafe car I promise that you will have a space.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Chris: (inaudible)

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Just for you Chris there will be a disco ball I will 

take my little mini boom box.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Chris: I'm sorry I have a hard time getting 

(inaudible) I am sure Marsha will catch me up on what I 

miss.

>> Absolutely. We made several really good 

decisions, I think, Chris.

>> Okay. Good. Jim all right folks this is Jim Pecht 

two minutes to our closing time I am going to say thank 

you very much for coming to the meeting, and we are 

now adjourned.

>> Thank you.

>> Have a great day.

>> This concludes today's conference the lines will 

disconnect at this time.
(End of meeting.)