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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

**+ + + + + MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + FRIDAY**  **AUGUST 22, 2014**

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting was held in Room 8E-089,**  **1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Eileen Hoffman, Meeting**  **Facilitator, presiding.**

**PRESENT: EILEEN HOFFMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Federal**  **Mediation and Conciliation Service TED BANTLE, Meeting Facilitator, Federal**  **Mediation and Conciliation Service JOHN CASKEY, National Electric Manufacturers**  **Association*** **KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric Cooperative Association** * **ISHBEL DICKENS, National Manufactured Home Owners Association** * **SCOTT DRAKE, East Kentucky Power Cooperative*** **STACY EPPERSON, Next Step Network MARK EZZO, Clayton Homes, Inc.** * **RICHARD HANGER, Housing Technology and Standards** * **BERT KESSLER, Palm Harbor Homes, Inc.*** **ERIC LACEY, Responsible Energy Codes Alliance** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **EMANUEL LEVY, Systems Building Research Alliance**  **MICHAEL LUBLINER, Washington State University Extension Energy Program**  **ROBERT LUTER, Lippert Components, Inc.*** **RICHARD POTTS, Virginia Department of Housing and Community Development** * **JAVIER RAMIREZ, Meeting Facilitator, Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service**  **ROBIN ROY, Natural Resources Defense Council MANUEL SANTANA, Cavco Industries**  **PETER SCHNEIDER, Efficiency Vermont*** **DAVID TOMPOS, NTA, Inc. MICHAEL WADE, Cavalier Home Builders** * **MARK WEISS, Manufactured Housing Association for Regulatory Reform**  ***Present via teleconference**

**ALSO PRESENT: ED BARBOUR, Navigant Consulting**  **JOSEPH HAGERMAN, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Office, U.S. Department**  **of Energy PAM PONTILLO, Office of Conflict Prevention**  **and Resolution, U.S. Department of Energy**  **DON SURRENA, National Association of Homebuilders**  **KANITA VAIDYANATHAN, Office of the General Counsel, U.S. Department of Energy**  **MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant Consulting**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **TABLE OF CONTENTS**

**Introductions. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4**

**Continuing Discussion on . . . . . . . . . . . 8 Proposed Strawman by Emanuel Levy** 

**Working Group Comments . . . . . . . . . . . 109**

**GC Questions and Comments. . . . . . . . . . 131**

**Discussion of Strawman by. . . . . . . . . . 193 Michael Lubliner** 

**Next Steps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 295**

**Adjourn**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 (9:07 a.m.)**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. This**  **4 is the second day of our meeting, the ASRAC**  **5 Manufactured Housing Working Group. And just**  **6 to get started, let's just introduce who is in**  **7 the room and then we'll hear who is on the**  **8 phone. Why don't we start with you, Luby.**  **9 MEMBER LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner,**  **10 Washington State University Extension Energy**  **11 Program.**  **12 MEMBER EPPERSON: Stacy Epperson,**  **13 Next Step Network.**  **14 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss,**  **15 Manufactured Housing Association for**  **16 Regulatory Reform.**  **17 MEMBER TOMPOS: David Tompos, NTA.**  **18 MEMBER ROY: Robin Roy, Natural**  **19 Resources Defense Council.**  **20 MEMBER LEVY: Emanuel Levy,**  **21 Systems Building Research Alliance.**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: Eric Lacey,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Responsible Energy Codes Alliance.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **3 And I know that we have Manny Santana here.**  **4 He is getting Dunkin Donuts, let the record**  **5 show. And then let me go grab the list from**  **6 who is online.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And while**  **8 he's doing that, let's hear from the folks on**  **9 the -- back there.**  **10 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Kavita**  **11 Vaidyanathan from DOE, General Counsel's**  **12 Office.**  **13 MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker from**  **14 Navigant.**  **15 MR. BARBOUR: Ed Barbour, Navigant**  **16 Consulting.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Pam, just tell us**  **18 who you are again.**  **19 MS. PONTILLO: Okay. This is Pam**  **20 Pontillo, and I'm DOE, Office of Conflict**  **21 Prevention and Resolution.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: And I'm Eileen** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Barkas Hoffman from FMCS, one of your co**  **2 facilitators.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez from**  **4 FMCS as well, facilitator.**  **5 MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle from FMCS.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Joe, so do**  **7 you have the list?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: And then we have**  **9 the following people online, and then I guess**  **10 they can introduce themselves after I get done**  **11 reading this list -- Ishbel Dickens, Mark**  **12 Ezzo, Richard Hanger, Bert Kessler, Robert**  **13 Luter, Richard Potts, Peter Schneider, and**  **14 Michael Wade.**  **15 MEMBER LUTER: Good morning. Rob**  **16 Luter with Lippert Components.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Good morning.**  **18 MEMBER EZZO: Mark Ezzo, Clayton**  **19 Homes. Good morning.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning.**  **21 MEMBER DICKENS: Ishbel Dickens.**  **22 Good morning.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. We**  **2 can hear you loud and clear.**  **3 MEMBER DICKENS: Great. Thank**  **4 you.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Scott Drake, are you**  **6 on?**  **7 MEMBER HANGER: Rick Hanger, State**  **8 of Colorado.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me?**  **10 MEMBER HANGER: Rick Hanger, State**  **11 of Colorado.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh. Thank you.**  **13 MEMBER DRAKE: Scott Drake, East**  **14 Kentucky Power.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Do we have Peter**  **16 Schneider?**  **17 MEMBER WADE: Michael Wade,**  **18 Cavalier Homes.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER POTTS: Richard Potts,**  **21 Virginia Department of Housing and Community**  **22 Development.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Do we have**  **2 Bert Kessler? Oh, but he can't unmute. Okay.**  **3 And Peter Schneider? He's on. Okay.**  **4 Okay. Well, let's start.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Eileen, I'm sorry.**  **6 Before -- just one technical thing.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Folks that are**  **9 online, if you could just mute your phones**  **10 unless you're going to comment. That way we**  **11 don't get any feedback or background noise.**  **12 We appreciate that. Thank you.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Thank**  **14 you.**  **15 Okay. Javier is -- we put up a**  **16 revised agenda for today. We just want to go**  **17 over it with you.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So we're**  **19 planning on continuing the discussion with**  **20 Emanuel Levy on his proposed strawman.**  **21 Hopefully, we can wrap that up in about an**  **22 hour or so. I mean, if we go long on any of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this stuff, we'll find time to deal with it.**  **2 Working group comments after that, and then --**  **3 oh, I'm the feedback. GC questions and**  **4 comments, and then Michael Lubliner had**  **5 presented a -- or emailed a strawman, and he**  **6 is going to review that with us as well. And**  **7 then we'll do lunch.**  **8 Eric is going to go over some**  **9 multiple compliance items that we had**  **10 discussed yesterday briefly. Lubliner will**  **11 lead the discussion on sources of data,**  **12 revisiting the Mind Map. And what we want to**  **13 do with the Mind Map is just look at that and**  **14 see if we can clean it up a little bit,**  **15 because I think after we've been discussing**  **16 this for a while we could probably agree that**  **17 there are some items on there that aren't**  **18 relevant to this working group and just see if**  **19 we could tighten it up a bit. Public comment,**  **20 and then agree on what we are going to do for**  **21 the next meeting as far as reviewing the**  **22 schedule and any wrap-up comments that we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would need to do.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: So I think we should**  **3 just get started now with Emanuel.**  **4 (Pause)**  **5 MEMBER LEVY: This is more of kind**  **6 of a freeform discussion I think about some**  **7 issues that will impact the discussion of**  **8 affordability and what is affordable, and**  **9 there have been already a number of comments**  **10 in this vein. And I wanted to maybe take a**  **11 few minutes to see if we can capture the ideas**  **12 that have been discussed about how you put a**  **13 limit on what the requirements are predicated**  **14 on, issues of affordability.**  **15 So this is, again, a strawman, a**  **16 series of ideas. These are other economic**  **17 considerations that would enter into the**  **18 decisionmaking about setting standard levels.**  **19 And the first one here is a list of**  **20 affordability metrics. I have been trying to**  **21 keep pace with what everybody has been saying**  **22 as to what other factors ought to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 considered when we look at affordability.**  **2 The ones I have captured so far**  **3 are price elasticity of demand, added cost of**  **4 energy measures, that in regard to what impact**  **5 might be on affordability, the ability of**  **6 homeowners to purchase a home, added costs**  **7 associated with the measures, basically in the**  **8 same vein. And other factors that tie**  **9 allowable cost increase to the cost of the**  **10 home.**  **11 So I wanted to use this**  **12 opportunity to open this up for discussion and**  **13 see if we can't discuss some of these**  **14 specifics in ways that are meaningful that**  **15 could help in the standard-setting process.**  **16 So let me just kind of throw that open, see**  **17 whether anybody has any comments about how we**  **18 use affordability metrics to impact the**  **19 requirements. Any comments? Thoughts? Mark?**  **20 MEMBER WEISS: I'd like to see --**  **21 and perhaps we should have some more specific**  **22 reference to some of these related cost** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 issues, for example, issues relating to air**  **2 exchange, moisture, condensation, and what is**  **3 needed to overcome those collateral impacts in**  **4 terms of both the cost of direct measures and**  **5 related energy costs.**  **6 I'll give you an example. You**  **7 know, given air exchange, if you need to have**  **8 a more powerful -- and, again, I'm not a**  **9 technical person, but a more powerful pumping**  **10 system for getting air through the house, the**  **11 cost of that and then the energy-related cost**  **12 of that, cost for electricity and so forth, I**  **13 think those are legitimate issues. I don't**  **14 know what remedial measures would be needed**  **15 with respect to condensation and moisture, but**  **16 those should be considered as well.**  **17 MEMBER EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo at**  **18 Clayton Homes. I agree with what Mark is**  **19 saying. So far we have just really talked**  **20 about envelope costs, but there is a lot of**  **21 other things in the energy code that are going**  **22 to attribute to cost. And there is extra** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 testing that has to be done that we're not**  **2 doing today, and there are lots of air sealing**  **3 measures, sealants, and prescriptive tables**  **4 that we're not doing today. So I think it's**  **5 important that we capture the costs of all of**  **6 those things in any kind of analysis we are**  **7 doing.**  **8 There is something else in the**  **9 code, and it's in regards to inspection**  **10 processes. And I know that the regulatory**  **11 side of how things are going to be regulated**  **12 and controlled are not part of our scope, but**  **13 there are items in the code, in the energy**  **14 code, that address at what point in the**  **15 construction things have to be inspected. And**  **16 if that ends up being a lot more burdensome**  **17 than what we do today, that's going to add**  **18 cost as well to the process.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe**  **20 Hagerman. Mark, those are all great comments.**  **21 Emanuel, you have -- the next**  **22 section, Section 3, talks about establishing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 energy measure properties for different items,**  **2 some of those items that Mark just talked**  **3 about. So how did you -- when you put this,**  **4 you know, this framework originally together,**  **5 how were you dealing with these issues?**  **6 MEMBER LEVY: Well, of course,**  **7 they are place markers for later on coming up**  **8 with some suggested ways that those things be**  **9 verified. And those sections are intended to**  **10 be fleshed out before the Committee actually**  **11 gets to them with some ideas about how those**  **12 would be looked at in the field and verified**  **13 in the field and compliance verified.**  **14 And I think what Mark is talking**  **15 about is let's make sure we capture the costs**  **16 of all of this --**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: The costs here, but**  **18 the terms of the measure in Section 3.**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: That's right.**  **20 Did I characterize that correctly,**  **21 Mark?**  **22 MEMBER EZZO: Yes. That's right.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LEVY: Anything else about**  **2 other -- capturing other -- other costs? Yes,**  **3 Michael.**  **4 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. I'm**  **5 wondering if you want to separate out the cost**  **6 of inspections and compliance from the other**  **7 things there that -- in that they are**  **8 amortized over a bunch of houses as opposed to**  **9 individual measures for individual houses. I**  **10 agree with Mark's comments that we need to --**  **11 both Marks' comments that we need to look at**  **12 all of the costs. But I think we will have a**  **13 different methodology for -- and so I want to**  **14 separate them out.**  **15 MEMBER LEVY: Okay. Any other**  **16 comments here?**  **17 There was also discussion**  **18 yesterday about price elasticity of demand.**  **19 I don't recall who brought that up, but -- was**  **20 that Eric? Do you want to expand on what you**  **21 meant there, Eric?**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. I think what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I was looking for is maybe some information or**  **2 some studies on where the step changes happen**  **3 and how big they are. And, you know, for**  **4 example, is it true that one dollar of**  **5 increased cost would knock out, you know, 300**  **6 people? Or is it that there is some**  **7 flexibility within the market? For example,**  **8 someone could buy an existing home or someone**  **9 could buy from a competitor.**  **10 And in some of these things, it**  **11 may not be the case, and I actually think it's**  **12 not the case, that the demand for homes is**  **13 effected on a straight line sort of basis.**  **14 I'm not an economist, but, you know, I tend to**  **15 think that it's maybe a little bit more fluid**  **16 and flexible than that.**  **17 So I'd be interested if there are**  **18 studies on that or -- or, you know, if there**  **19 is kind of, you know, a sensitivity analysis**  **20 on that.**  **21 MEMBER WEISS: Yes. Eric, we do**  **22 have the study that was done recently by NAHB** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that was mentioned at the last meeting. I**  **2 don't know how fine or detailed that gets, but**  **3 one of the things that I think we are doing**  **4 for a subgroup is to try to get in touch with**  **5 them and try to ascertain how refined that**  **6 analysis is.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: So, then, the**  **8 Finance Committee would work on trying to get**  **9 stuff together on that?**  **10 MEMBER EPPERSON: Stacy, Next**  **11 Step. Yes. And we've gotten the information**  **12 of the economist who completed the study, and**  **13 we plan to schedule her for a discussion.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Great. Okay. Thank**  **15 you. Eric?**  **16 MEMBER LACEY: I was just going to**  **17 follow up on what Mark suggested, the NAHB**  **18 study. I think the NAHB study is actually a**  **19 poor example of looking -- I think it doesn't**  **20 consider the price elasticity of demand. So,**  **21 I mean, that's fine to put that in there as**  **22 one possibility, but I think we need to look** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 at some that do consider a real -- you know,**  **2 some real demand issues. But that's -- you**  **3 know, it's certainly a good idea to include**  **4 that.**  **5 MEMBER EPPERSON: This is Stacy.**  **6 Do you have any examples, Eric, of some that**  **7 we might look at?**  **8 MEMBER LACEY: I don't.**  **9 MEMBER EPPERSON: Okay.**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: I do. I**  **11 referenced these on the first call, and I**  **12 think Joe has a copy of them now. One is**  **13 Marshall, and that one was looking**  **14 specifically at the manufactured housing**  **15 industry and not the entire public, like I**  **16 believe the NAHB report was. It's Marshall**  **17 and Marks, and I think it was done in 2006.**  **18 There is another study I shared**  **19 with Joe that Tom Eckman did that looked at**  **20 the other side of the market, whether or not**  **21 as you increase the price of a home and the**  **22 energy efficiency whether you grow your market** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 at the upper end. I have that study as well**  **2 for you.**  **3 And then I would recommend that**  **4 you look at the study that MHI did, Dr. Carol**  **5 Meeks. I believe that was -- I don't know,**  **6 when was that, like in the early 90s I think?**  **7 Yes, as well. But those are the three studies**  **8 that I am aware of that might add value to the**  **9 group's effort.**  **10 Thanks.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: So let me also say**  **12 it's -- Michael, thank you for sending**  **13 everything you sent. He sent me maybe five or**  **14 six emails last night around 11:00, so he**  **15 bombed my in box. I have not yet had a chance**  **16 to circulate that to the group, but I intend**  **17 to do that as soon as possible today.**  **18 MEMBER LUBLINER: I want to make**  **19 sure I send it to Joe, so he can look at it,**  **20 see if it kind of met the target of what we**  **21 wanted to do. So thanks.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: I think usually if** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you send me anything, if anybody sends me**  **2 anything, we send it out pretty promptly.**  **3 Sometimes if it's, you know, a little bit**  **4 obtuse we might ask you a question about how**  **5 you intend, you know, the working group to**  **6 consider it. So I know, like, Robin asked a**  **7 question about the -- can we get an ENERGY**  **8 STAR manufactured home model, which we are**  **9 going to send those results, but, you know,**  **10 we're not going to send his request out to the**  **11 group. We're going to send you the results**  **12 once we get them.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: I just wanted to --**  **14 it's Eileen. I wanted just to ask, is this**  **15 the appropriate time to see if there is a**  **16 consensus on this is what we need to do for**  **17 affordability metrics, or is it -- is it still**  **18 in fluid state? Any comments?**  **19 MEMBER ROY: I think it's in the**  **20 fluid state. I think we are getting a good**  **21 list of lots of different types of data, but**  **22 the headings aren't quite meshing with the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 content everywhere. It's a bunch of good**  **2 stuff that needs a little bit more innovation.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **4 MEMBER ROY: I'm not sure it needs**  **5 to be done with a huge group. I suspect**  **6 Emanuel will go and take it and mesh it around**  **7 and throw it back at us with some --**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I just wanted**  **9 to make sure we got feedback.**  **10 MEMBER WEISS: Also, I think the**  **11 further we get into this, I think other things**  **12 are going to arise that need to be addressed,**  **13 so --**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Fine. Just**  **15 taking the temperature.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we have a**  **17 consensus that we are going to kind of march**  **18 down this framework and use this framework to**  **19 ground the conversation direction, right? I**  **20 mean, thus far, absent some other proposal?**  **21 MEMBER WEISS: Other than those**  **22 goals that I mentioned yesterday, I mean,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 everything after the goals I'm fine with.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Great.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: We agree.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Sorry,**  **6 Emanuel. Keep going.**  **7 MEMBER LEVY: Okay. Manny, did**  **8 you want to say something?**  **9 MEMBER SANTANA: No. I'm good.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. We should**  **11 summarize, besides those guiding principles,**  **12 the framework itself is one we are working**  **13 with. Okay.**  **14 MEMBER LEVY: So have we captured**  **15 everything as of the moment in terms of other**  **16 metrics that we want to use? Costs of the**  **17 measures, other measures other than the ones**  **18 that we're looking at through life cycle cost,**  **19 costs of inspections and compliance, and price**  **20 elasticity -- those seem to be the three areas**  **21 that we are concerned about, right?**  **22 The next -- Section 2 is intended** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to capture those specific conditions that have**  **2 been brought up by various members of the**  **3 Committee that might pose particular problems**  **4 because of the cost of those kinds of -- in**  **5 this case homes meeting whatever standards are**  **6 developed.**  **7 So I have listed three here that I**  **8 think were points that were made as to the**  **9 kinds of homes that could pose problems for --**  **10 in meeting these standards. I wanted to see**  **11 whether we have captured the right -- all of**  **12 the right items and whether there should be**  **13 other ones added here. And these would be**  **14 sent -- these would be the subject of**  **15 sensitivity studies as part of the life cycle**  **16 cost analysis.**  **17 And we can add more specificity**  **18 here, if that's appropriate. What other**  **19 things should we be looking at to make sure**  **20 they are not unduly burdened by whatever comes**  **21 out of the standards process?**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: I was just going to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 -- one thing that I think David Tompos said **2 yesterday isn't on that list, that there are 3 some state-specific shipping limitations,**  **4 right? 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Stacy? Michael?**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Robin? 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **8 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'm interested 9 in learning a little bit more about these --**  **10 you know, kind of what the technical -- the 11 problem was.**  **12 MEMBER LEVY: What the specifics 13 are?**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. And is it 15 associated with the Uo? Or, in other words,**  **16 if we used a prescriptive approach, which is 17 available to us. So I've just got to get a**  **18 sense of what the challenges are here at some 19 point and I'll feel more comfortable about**  **20 what I can -- yes. 21 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. I**  **22 guess I can talk about a couple of them.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Cathedral ceilings I think is a big concern.**  **2 You know, we talk about getting an R38 in a**  **3 cathedral. Prescriptively, you can say that**  **4 you're getting an R38, but with the trust**  **5 configurations that I have seen it is going to**  **6 get compressed down. You're going to get**  **7 about -- I think the maximum that I think that**  **8 we can get is about a 32, somewhere in that**  **9 range.**  **10 So you just have a physical**  **11 constraint that you can't do much more than**  **12 that. I know there are some manufacturers**  **13 that are doing almost nothing but cathedral**  **14 homes. So, and I don't think too many of them**  **15 are represented on this Committee, so that's**  **16 one of my -- one of my big concerns.**  **17 The seven-foot sidewalls, some of**  **18 that is the U of O being able to meet -- it's**  **19 just very difficult to meet that when you**  **20 shrink down the wall sizes. And typically**  **21 when you do that you are going to have more**  **22 glazing area. And then the state-specific** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 shipping limitations, I still would love to**  **2 see the example of an R60 roof in Vermont,**  **3 because that could solve all our problems if**  **4 we have an example of how to do that.**  **5 MEMBER ROY: Dave, with the**  **6 exception of the shipping, would all of those**  **7 be addressed by taking a UA approach as**  **8 opposed to a Uo approach? The sidewalls**  **9 would, right, because it's just for the**  **10 structure. And that wouldn't be a problem.**  **11 The cathedral ceilings? I'm not sure.**  **12 MEMBER TOMPOS: Potentially. I**  **13 mean, you know, if you can take the tradeoffs,**  **14 that's great. It's just a matter of if you**  **15 take the tradeoff in the roof cavity and say,**  **16 okay, now we can only get an R -- let's say,**  **17 R30 in the roof cavity, now I'm going to have**  **18 to put a lot more either in the floors or in**  **19 the sidewalls, we maybe have more opportunity**  **20 in the sidewalls than we do in the floor**  **21 cavity.**  **22 And it's not a -- it's not like we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 can't do it. I know some people suggested,**  **2 okay, we go to a two by eight, two by ten.**  **3 Again, we may run into some of those height**  **4 limitations, but I think you're going to find**  **5 out that when you go from a two by six to a**  **6 two by eight or two by ten that the -- it's**  **7 not going to be affordable considering the**  **8 amount of additional R value you get, because**  **9 you're not going to get a whole lot more for**  **10 those couple of inches as opposed to the --**  **11 you know, you're probably looking at a 30**  **12 percent cost increase to go from some of those**  **13 different numbers for an entire building.**  **14 So --**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?**  **16 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- it is possible.**  **17 I just -- it's a matter of whether or not it's**  **18 affordable.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Eric?**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: I just want to**  **21 throw something in here, and I know we'll talk**  **22 about this later. Several of us have been** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 talking about, you know, multiple compliance**  **2 options and how that might solve some of these**  **3 issues. I totally support this idea of**  **4 finding kind of the optimal, you know,**  **5 efficiency and cost effectiveness number, you**  **6 know, that Emanuel is going after. I think**  **7 that's a good cause.**  **8 But I also think that in the name**  **9 of getting to a compromise some of these**  **10 issues might be solved if we had a few**  **11 different options. You know, maybe you have**  **12 a prescriptive table and it has a set path**  **13 that you can meet and it's simple, but it**  **14 might not account for cathedral ceilings, so**  **15 in that case you go to a different option, you**  **16 go to a UA that is based on that but allow**  **17 more tradeoffs.**  **18 The U of O obviously would be, you**  **19 know, something that industry is familiar**  **20 with, and if that's all you've been doing and**  **21 you're comfortable with those calculations,**  **22 you can continue down that path. But, I mean,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this is a good discussion to have, and I don't**  **2 mean to, like -- to get off the rails here.**  **3 But I want folks to keep that in**  **4 mind, that I don't think we have to solve for**  **5 every specific construction type and come up**  **6 with one standard that would satisfy all of**  **7 them, and all designs, but that maybe there**  **8 might be some flexibility built into this to**  **9 address those things.**  **10 But, anyway, this is good**  **11 information to get on the table at least.**  **12 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter**  **13 Schneider.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter.**  **15 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. I was**  **16 just wondering, what is the roof pitch that**  **17 the manufactured housing industry needs to**  **18 achieve? Like, what is the minimum, you know,**  **19 where the shingles warranty is not voided and**  **20 we can get away -- because it sounds like we**  **21 are talking about a cosmetic issue here and**  **22 not actually, you know, a structural issue.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 That is, you're trying to achieve**  **2 a certain roof pitch for a home to be**  **3 delivered down the road turn-key, so you don't**  **4 have to flip up, you know, your roof and do**  **5 any work onsite. So I'm just wondering, you**  **6 know, if you didn't have such a steep pitch**  **7 roof, doesn't that accommodate a better truss**  **8 that could accommodate those R values? And**  **9 even a floor system that would accommodate**  **10 higher R values?**  **11 MEMBER SANTANA: This is Manny**  **12 with Cavco. As far as the minimum roof pitch,**  **13 to comply with the shingles manufacturers'**  **14 requirements, that would be a two/twelve.**  **15 And, you are right, if you have a two/twelve**  **16 pitch on the roof, that takes away some of the**  **17 overall height. Problem is, there is a trend**  **18 towards folks wanting to buy steeper pitched**  **19 roofs.**  **20 And I don't know how we -- I don't**  **21 know how you -- you can't ignore that trend**  **22 and that demand, you know, only if -- if we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 build two/twelve pitches, you know, I'm not a**  **2 dealer, but I'm sure that would have a big**  **3 effect on sales, overall look and aesthetics.**  **4 You know, it's a factor.**  **5 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I think that**  **6 that needs to be looked at in more detail.**  **7 You know, the homes in Vermont that we are**  **8 delivering have a two and a half/twelve pitch,**  **9 and that's how we're achieving all of the R**  **10 values we are achieving.**  **11 And I haven't had a homeowner to**  **12 date mention the roof pitch as being**  **13 aesthetically displeasing and any different**  **14 than the typical manufactured home that is**  **15 sitting on a dealer lot. So, you know, that**  **16 concern may be alleviated with the market**  **17 consumer research.**  **18 MEMBER SANTANA: You know, in**  **19 response to that, I would like to point out**  **20 that we are talking about a region -- you**  **21 know, I don't know exactly what the percentage**  **22 of total manufactured housing sales to Vermont** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is, but I know that the top 10 or 12 states**  **2 are in the southeast, with the exception of**  **3 California.**  **4 So although I believe the evidence**  **5 that you present, I don't see that it is**  **6 representative of the manufactured housing**  **7 industry as a whole.**  **8 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No. And that's**  **9 the reason that there needs to be consumer**  **10 research. But I will tell you in Vermont we**  **11 are far more used to steeper pitched roofs**  **12 than anybody else in the country with our snow**  **13 loading.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let's**  **15 go to Stacy and then Michael.**  **16 MEMBER EPPERSON: Stacy. So I'm**  **17 going to put my lender hat on. I think roof**  **18 pitch, what I'd like to point out here, that**  **19 from a market-based solution and how you**  **20 finance it and how you give it value, one of**  **21 the ways you get more value is curb appeal and**  **22 blending with the site built world.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And roof pitch at Next Step is one**  **2 of those strategies to help get better**  **3 financing into the marketplace. If we have**  **4 these two/twelves, it affects it. So I just**  **5 want to point that out from an overall market**  **6 perspective.**  **7 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Stacy, do you**  **8 have data that prove that?**  **9 MEMBER EPPERSON: Well, we could**  **10 look into this, because we could look at the**  **11 pitch that sells regionally, and what those --**  **12 I don't have a study of values, but I know how**  **13 they appraise and there is a difference with**  **14 a small amount of data, but I don't know if**  **15 there are national studies.**  **16 (Pause)**  **17 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter,**  **18 just with one more comment, which is let's**  **19 take a look at a section of achieving the R**  **20 values of IECC 2015 of a home in, let's just**  **21 say, the three HUD climate zones and just see**  **22 what that section looks like, you know, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what the maximum roof pitch it that we can**  **2 achieve while achieving the R values and the**  **3 cavity depths that we need in each of those,**  **4 in the roof truss and in the floor system,**  **5 instead of, you know, anecdotally determining**  **6 that a two/twelve, you know, isn't going to**  **7 meet the market's demand for a steeper roof**  **8 pitch.**  **9 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **10 Lubliner. I totally agree with what Peter**  **11 says. We need to do the engineering here and**  **12 tell us -- and then once we have that, once we**  **13 know which are the roof pitches -- and as I**  **14 understand, this is in the -- this has to do**  **15 with cathedral ceilings as well.**  **16 You know, this is a tall roof**  **17 pitch with a cathedral ceiling. I wasn't**  **18 sure, Stacy, if that was what you were -- when**  **19 you talked about roof pitch, is this in the**  **20 context of also a cathedral ceiling in the**  **21 house or a flat -- so we need to be clear on**  **22 what it is we're talking about, is my point.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And I totally agree with Peter.**  **2 We need to identify, what are the typical roof**  **3 trusses with cathedral, without cathedral, and**  **4 what percentage of the market they represent.**  **5 I don't want to be chasing for two days here**  **6 a discussion that has to do with one percent**  **7 of the market, which is a cathedral high**  **8 pitch.**  **9 My experience in the northwest**  **10 where we built an upper end home is that --**  **11 significantly upper end, there is more triple**  **12 wides than there are singles, but we --**  **13 two/twelve is accepted. We -- very rarely do**  **14 we see a lot that -- where we are going to get**  **15 into a problem situation. And when we do,**  **16 they do a tilt up and those customers can**  **17 generally afford that.**  **18 But I think that the methodology**  **19 we need to approach here is first to establish**  **20 the engineering. Where is the problem with**  **21 the pitch relative to its cathedral or flat**  **22 ceiling? And then go in and look at how --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what percentage of the time you typically get**  **2 a home built that way. When we have that**  **3 information, then we can decide whether we**  **4 want to just exempt that as, okay, these cases**  **5 don't need -- they are allowed to have more**  **6 compression.**  **7 On the floors, I am not here to**  **8 tell you you need to start building two by**  **9 eight floor joists if you're building two by**  **10 six to meet an energy code. That's**  **11 ridiculous. I think we can sit down, again,**  **12 with the engineering and identify how much of**  **13 what I called the "pooch" yesterday, how long**  **14 the belly blanket needs to be to get an**  **15 acceptable amount of dip to accommodate the**  **16 belly board, and then look at what that**  **17 compression is and allow that based on the**  **18 physical limitations that you discuss.**  **19 So I think we should really be**  **20 thinking about, what are the -- where can we**  **21 make exceptions to these rules and not -- and**  **22 identify where there is a problem and how** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 extensive the problem is in terms of the**  **2 population of homes that we are going to be**  **3 regulating here.**  **4 Thank you.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Stacy, did you have**  **6 something? Okay. David?**  **7 MEMBER TOMPOS: I agree. I think**  **8 we need to get some of these numbers before we**  **9 can determine if we have any problem at all.**  **10 We are just trying to get them out there.**  **11 Emanuel, if you go back to your**  **12 list -- I don't know where we went -- I just**  **13 want to add, because I also have a concern**  **14 about some of the FEMA product that our**  **15 industry builds. I want to make sure that at**  **16 the end of the day once we figure out where**  **17 everything falls that we can still build a --**  **18 the unit that I'm concerned about is the**  **19 northern handicap-accessible unit, because we**  **20 have -- we already have space limitations the**  **21 way it is.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner again. There was also discussion**  **2 about which of these issues are really driven**  **3 by the Uo calculation approach, and whether or**  **4 not these issues go away if you provide a**  **5 prescriptive approach or a UA tradeoff. So I**  **6 want to make sure that, as we do this, I'd**  **7 like to get a sense -- it seems like if you**  **8 had a prescriptive path that worked, one size**  **9 fits all, that Item A might not be an issue**  **10 because you're just going to build to the same**  **11 thing.**  **12 The same thing with Item C. If**  **13 you had used the prescriptive path, that's not**  **14 an issue. Therefore, D isn't an issue, and**  **15 I'd like to understand the FEMA part, and also**  **16 work with FEMA. I've had FEMA call me, asking**  **17 me what kind of ventilation standards to put**  **18 in manufactured homes. And when I made my**  **19 recommendation, they said, "HUD won't let us**  **20 do that."**  **21 So I think that we need to be**  **22 thinking proactively with FEMA about, you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 know, what are the challenges, so that their**  **2 procurement gets the win-win, gets the designs**  **3 they need and ensures the efficiency, that**  **4 they are not having to make an exception for**  **5 FEMA homes in the energy code.**  **6 But, again, let's delve into the**  **7 engineering and figure that one out, what it**  **8 costs and what the issue is.**  **9 And, finally, I want to bring my**  **10 little box to the table and show you a system**  **11 that we have been working on with a couple of**  **12 the manufacturers like Dow and Owens Corning.**  **13 And this is not a commercial because this**  **14 isn't commercially available. I'm not**  **15 plugging it, but this is -- the idea was that**  **16 we have two trusses in the industry that are**  **17 typical. One is a five and a half inch truss,**  **18 or the other one is a two and a half inch**  **19 truss. You were saying yesterday -- somebody**  **20 was saying yesterday that industry has been**  **21 moving towards more five and a half inch on**  **22 the heel.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So this is the minimum depth that**  **2 -- over the exterior wall. And so what we**  **3 were trying to figure out is, how can we get**  **4 more R per inch at that point? My experience**  **5 in northern climates is that this is not just**  **6 an issue of energy efficiency. I can shoot**  **7 the house with an infrared camera and see that**  **8 heat loss significant at that bridging point.**  **9 But it also causes moisture**  **10 issues, like ice damming. I don't know how**  **11 prevalent that is in your experience, your**  **12 SAA. That's the -- SAA, for people who don't**  **13 know, that's the HUD consumer complaint**  **14 office. So they may have data on ice dams.**  **15 But I know that manufacturers deal with that**  **16 in cold climates.**  **17 So as you improve the R value at**  **18 the eave, you reduce the potential for ice**  **19 damming and moisture problems. So when we**  **20 were talking about this wedge, everybody was**  **21 saying, heck, this thing might be more**  **22 beneficial to the industry in terms of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 callbacks in cold climates, as valuable as the**  **2 energy savings could do.**  **3 So basically what this is is just**  **4 a series of pieces of foam block, two-inch**  **5 foam block. I made it pink, and then I**  **6 covered it in blue, so Dow nor Owens Corning**  **7 would be upset about it. So the flash thing,**  **8 this is just to keep it -- hold it in place.**  **9 But basically what it would do is,**  **10 you know, you could have this extend out, and**  **11 so air comes up here and you have -- this ends**  **12 up being the baffle, so you're replacing the**  **13 labor associated with stapling up a baffle or**  **14 putting in a baffle for your insulation, your**  **15 loose fill, and it also provides you**  **16 significantly higher R per inch.**  **17 So I guess this gets back to new**  **18 technologies and solutions, and I'm not**  **19 suggesting this is on the shelf now and is**  **20 something that you can buy tomorrow. But as**  **21 we sat down and talked about solving the**  **22 problem with these manufacturers, they came up** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with some even lower cost spray foam**  **2 applications using a mold like this that you**  **3 could build in your factory yourself.**  **4 So I guess where I'm coming from**  **5 is I think that if we look a little bit**  **6 outside the box in problem-solving some of**  **7 these compression things, we might be able to**  **8 solve multiple problems and minimize both the**  **9 operating costs and the maintenance issues in**  **10 some of the colder climates.**  **11 So, anyway, if anybody is**  **12 interested, this is available to engage you in**  **13 discussions and figure out what kind of cost**  **14 point this would be and whether or not it's**  **15 realistic to expect it in the industry. I**  **16 like coming up with ideas, and I like the**  **17 industry to tell me to go jump in a lake if**  **18 they think it's something that isn't really**  **19 appropriate, because I respect you guys, and**  **20 I think you guys are very innovative in the**  **21 factory. And if there is a way to solve the**  **22 compression problem at the pooch or at the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 eave, you've got to -- I've got to come up **2 with a better word for that. What's the best 3 --**  **4 MEMBER TOMPOS: Belly. 5 MEMBER LUBLINER: At the belly,**  **6 from the I-joist to the rim. 7 Anyway, that's the kind of things**  **8 -- there are products out there that are 9 higher R per inch that could be used to help**  **10 solve the problem, and that's what I meant, 11 really.**  **12 MEMBER LEVY: Okay. So did we 13 miss anything? And I added above -- Michael,**  **14 I tried to capture your comment about looking 15 also at the cathedrals in terms of what would**  **16 actually be built for those. So, and made 17 that our responsibility, to come up with a**  **18 series of solutions there. 19 So the INEL -- I don't think we**  **20 need to get into this, but the reason we're 21 identifying these is we would ask DOE to do**  **22 sensitivity analyses of these cases. I**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 suspect we will have to dig deeper to specify**  **2 in what locations and what kind of building**  **3 configurations, but that would be the idea.**  **4 And then we'd look at the life**  **5 cycle cost impacts of these kinds of measures.**  **6 Is everybody in agreement with that? Yes.**  **7 good.**  **8 Okay. Other economic**  **9 considerations, did we miss anything?**  **10 Excellent.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric, do you want to**  **12 back up on that?**  **13 MEMBER LACEY: I just wanted to**  **14 add something and throw something in there.**  **15 When you're talking about the economic**  **16 measures, there was an issue raised yesterday**  **17 about the expected lifetime of measures. And**  **18 I had mentioned that the National Association**  **19 of Home Builders put out a study of those**  **20 things, and I checked in with Don Surrena of**  **21 NAHB to make sure it was okay to circulate**  **22 this report and to see if we have the most** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 recent version.**  **2 And would it be okay to give him**  **3 just a couple of minutes to talk about the**  **4 source of that study and how it can be used,**  **5 and so on?**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Don?**  **7 MR. SURRENA: Good morning. I'm**  **8 Don Surrena, National Association of Home**  **9 Builders. What we have is a study of life**  **10 expectancy of home components. It was done in**  **11 2007. The report was issued then. The**  **12 information came from 2006, 2005, so it is**  **13 slightly dated. Products have changed.**  **14 Materials have changed. But the study was**  **15 done exclusively for stick-built housing. So**  **16 as you look at the products in here,**  **17 understand that they were anticipated to be in**  **18 a stick-built house.**  **19 Additionally, you'll look at some**  **20 of the life spans, and they will be quite**  **21 long. Roofing materials, for example, 50 to**  **22 70 years. That's if you're using a slate roof** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or a tile roof. We differentiate asphalt**  **2 shingles and the different types of roofing**  **3 that there are, and the same with countertops**  **4 and other equipment.**  **5 So I have told Eric he would -- he**  **6 has the PDF, and I told him feel free to**  **7 distribute it. But I wanted you to understand**  **8 what the source of the report was for and that**  **9 it is rather dated. You know, we are looking**  **10 at revise it, but this is something that was**  **11 a major undertaking in these days, and our**  **12 staff has diminished by at least one-third**  **13 since then. It is time-consuming and**  **14 resource-engulfing.**  **15 So feel free to look at it. Take**  **16 it for what -- I don't want to say what it's**  **17 worth. It's worth quite a bit, and it is**  **18 helpful to get an understanding of how things,**  **19 in their most optimal condition, will perform.**  **20 A lot of it has to do with maintenance and**  **21 what it is put on and what it is put into and**  **22 the clientele who have bought it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So enjoy. Thank you for the time.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Don.**  **3 MEMBER LACEY: And I can circulate**  **4 that around.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Thank you. If**  **6 you get it to me, I could send it out.**  **7 MR. SURRENA: And, excuse me,**  **8 there is a hard copy available if you'd like**  **9 to look at it.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Thank you.**  **11 MEMBER LEVY: Anything else before**  **12 we move on? We have about 10 minutes left.**  **13 I thought the time might be well spent if we**  **14 just talked about the other energy measures**  **15 that would be -- might be addressed included**  **16 in the standard and get to some agreement**  **17 about this.**  **18 There is no -- I have put up four**  **19 items that might be subject to discussion. We**  **20 can add or subtract from this list. So these**  **21 are things that are not covered by the life**  **22 cycle cost analysis that could be included in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the requirements.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: This is John**  **3 Hagerman, DOE. I think if you look at the**  **4 PNNL analysis, some of these additional energy**  **5 measures impact the annual energy use**  **6 considerably, like lighting is 10 to 20**  **7 percent or 10 to 15 percent. So I think not**  **8 including them would be a huge mistake.**  **9 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos.**  **10 Emanuel, why don't -- I'm sorry.**  **11 MR. BARBOUR: I just wanted to**  **12 clarify -- this is Ed Barbour, Navigant.**  **13 Actually, all four of those are currently in**  **14 the PNNL result, if you look at them, both**  **15 whiting, hot water pipe insulation, SHGC, as**  **16 well as duct insulation.**  **17 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. Why**  **18 wouldn't we -- or is there a reason why we**  **19 can't include them in the life cycle cost**  **20 analysis? I mean, there is obviously a cost**  **21 associated with better glazing or the**  **22 insulation on the pipes. I mean, is that --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROY: (Off-mic comment.)**  **2 MEMBER TOMPOS: Yes. That's my**  **3 concern is why --**  **4 MEMBER ROY: (Off-mic comment.)**  **5 THE COURT REPORTER: Sir, can you**  **6 turn on your microphone, please?**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: That was Robin.**  **8 MEMBER ROY: I suggest we just**  **9 delete those last five words in the scope.**  **10 This is Robin.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, you know, if**  **12 you deleted one of the words, which completely**  **13 changes the meaning --**  **14 (Laughter)**  **15 So I'm guessing you're okay with**  **16 that, Robin, right?**  **17 MEMBER ROY: I'm going off the**  **18 distributed hard copy, not the thing which is**  **19 in process and changing on the screen.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Okay. Eric,**  **21 you had something?**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. So the IECC** 

### Page 50

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 has a number of mandatory provisions, and I'm**  **2 trying to put together a complete list of**  **3 everything that, you know, if you were**  **4 complying with the IECC, there is a list of,**  **5 you know, eight or ten things that you'd be**  **6 specifically required to do. And these are**  **7 some of them, and then I'm going to suggest**  **8 that maybe we take a look at that list, and if**  **9 there is anything that just doesn't apply, we**  **10 knock it out or -- but everything else, you**  **11 know, you include.**  **12 And it sounds like they have**  **13 included it in the analysis, and that can be,**  **14 you know, a point of discussion. But, you**  **15 know, I am compiling that list right now, and**  **16 I think I've got most of them.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Can you share**  **18 that with us once you do? Okay. Great.**  **19 Thank you.**  **20 Michael?**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner.**  **22 These may or may not be what the group wants** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to talk about, but I wanted to kind of -- the**  **2 kind of technologies that we are working with**  **3 in the industry, and haven't really gained a**  **4 lot of market perspective yet, but we are**  **5 moving in that direction.**  **6 But before I do, I want to make**  **7 sure that something I said yesterday about**  **8 proposals that I made to the Manufactured**  **9 Housing Consensus Committee five years ago**  **10 that were rejected because they believed that**  **11 this group was going to address them, and**  **12 those have to do with a requirement that gas**  **13 furnaces have -- be ENERGY STAR, and so a**  **14 condensing furnace.**  **15 Water heaters would have to be**  **16 ENERGY STAR, which might require heat pump**  **17 water heaters in warm climates. One inch or**  **18 foam sheathing on exterior walls, which is**  **19 something I know Emanuel is doing research for**  **20 Building America on, and so have we.**  **21 Heat recovery ventilation, ENERGY**  **22 STAR appliances, which was another one that** 

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### 1 was rejected, and specifically that would be **2 when a washer and dryer is offered that it be 3 ENERGY STAR, a dishwasher, which is typically**  **4 installed, and a refrigerator which is 5 typically sold, and exhaust fans, which are**  **6 also listed. 7 So assessing the ENERGY STAR**  **8 appliances would be another one that's good. 9 And I think another one is some sort of a**  **10 credit or some sort of a benefit to 11 manufacturers who are taking steps to reduce**  **12 the heat loss associated with their thermal 13 distribution systems, their ductwork, or heat**  **14 gain. 15 So taking air conditioning ducts**  **16 out of a 140-degree attic with one inch of 17 insulation on them and moving them inside the**  **18 house would be I think a very cost effective 19 measure to look at.**  **20 Now, we can talk about technical 21 feasibility and issues like that, but that**  **22 would be something. The other one that is**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 typically done all the time is the elimination**  **2 of the crossover duct in the belly by using a**  **3 through-the-rim system.**  **4 It seems to me that manufacturers**  **5 that are employing different innovative**  **6 systems that reduce the thermal distribution**  **7 losses should be getting some sort of**  **8 acknowledgment in the code for those, and**  **9 there should be an incentive for them to look**  **10 at that.**  **11 Thank you.**  **12 MEMBER LEVY: Michael, I think I**  **13 might have missed one or two of your points.**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. Gas or**  **15 condensing gas furnace. I don't know if**  **16 that's -- oh, you've got that, required ENERGY**  **17 STAR. Yes. And these are only for products**  **18 that are shipped with the home. Oh, and last**  **19 but not least, there was one I didn't put in**  **20 there and that's -- but it could be under**  **21 this, and that would be mini-split heat pumps**  **22 and air conditioners, which we are now** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 shipping with the homes right out of the**  **2 factory.**  **3 Thank you.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin?**  **5 MEMBER ROY: I generally agree**  **6 with those additions. I would suggest making**  **7 it a bit more generic and having the ENERGY**  **8 STAR as examples, particularly on the heating**  **9 and cooling appliances. I mean, higher**  **10 efficiency heating equipment -- for example,**  **11 ENERGY STAR, condensing furnaces, ducted and**  **12 ductless heat pumps, just so it's not tied to**  **13 ENERGY STAR solely.**  **14 Not to say we necessarily want to**  **15 do that, but it's worth understanding what we**  **16 are getting from a heat pump. I have heard**  **17 from Peter quite a bit the -- and others the**  **18 attraction of it. I'd love to see some**  **19 analysis of it and get some sense what the**  **20 cost is and how this might fit in the overall.**  **21 One thing that might be worth**  **22 adding also is flow management on hot water** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 using devices. I don't know the extent to**  **2 which, for example, water sense fixtures are**  **3 used, you know, lower heating. I don't know**  **4 if that's -- is that something that we're**  **5 considering? Is that something that is**  **6 standard or used anywhere? If not, then it's**  **7 something we should think about -- lower water**  **8 use.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?**  **10 MEMBER LACEY: This is an issue**  **11 that probably deserves a little more**  **12 discussion. I think it would be great if we**  **13 could require more efficiency furnaces and air**  **14 conditioners and things like that. I'm not**  **15 sure if we can in this group, and I'm not sure**  **16 if we want to go down that path. I think**  **17 we'll hear from DOE General Counsel later, you**  **18 know, on whether that's a possibility.**  **19 I guess the issue I have is the,**  **20 you know, the term "credit," that's a**  **21 dangerous term because currently, you know, in**  **22 the 2009, 2012, 2015 IECC there was -- there** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is no credit, you know, against thermal**  **2 envelope components for these things.**  **3 Now, you know, in above code**  **4 programs you get extra points for these things**  **5 and credit, because they are not subject to**  **6 the same NAECA limitations that they mandatory**  **7 building codes are of the states. So, you**  **8 know, that is -- I think there is going to be**  **9 some discussion on that later, but that's the**  **10 one caution I would throw in here is if you**  **11 end up with a standard that awards a bunch of**  **12 credit for appliances that are already going**  **13 in, you may not come anywhere near the IECC in**  **14 terms of the efficiency of the unit. That's**  **15 my other caution there.**  **16 MEMBER LUBLINER: I agree. I**  **17 might have misspoke or -- the way it was**  **18 characterized here. When I was talking about**  **19 -- some incentive, whether that's a carrot or**  **20 a stick, to get ducts more efficient, and**  **21 that's the only one I was talking about, not**  **22 mini-splits or -- but mini-splits would be a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 separate thing.**  **2 And then, and I --**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: So we need to change**  **4 number 8 from "credit" to "incentive"?**  **5 MEMBER LEVY: Yes.**  **6 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I**  **7 think five and eight -- I think the rest --**  **8 all of them we're just talking about**  **9 evaluating and additional measures. We don't**  **10 have to say what form that evaluation or**  **11 recommendation comes.**  **12 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, exactly.**  **13 This -- and then the mini-split would be under**  **14 HVAC, and it would be separate from the -- and**  **15 then the heat pump water heaters. I don't**  **16 know, is that up there? I just missed that.**  **17 But that's an 800-pound gorilla.**  **18 And I totally agree that we should**  **19 wait for legal counsel to decide whether this**  **20 is applicable before we even waste our time on**  **21 it. this would lower priority to the bulk of**  **22 the effort, which is the envelope stuff we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have been talking about. I wanted to put this**  **2 all in context. I don't want to sidestep us**  **3 into the nuances here of these emerging**  **4 technologies relative to the mission.**  **5 Thank you.**  **6 MEMBER ROY: Robin here. I just**  **7 wouldn't say that heat pump space heating is**  **8 an emerging technology so much. It's**  **9 demonstrated. And whether it's covered by the**  **10 Act and could be regulated by DOE here, it**  **11 would be good to get a sense sooner rather**  **12 than later. We can see that there's a problem**  **13 with it. I'm not sure we want to -- we want**  **14 to do it, but --**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. This is Joe**  **16 Hagerman, DOE. We know this is an important**  **17 topic. Kavita is going to come back at 10:30,**  **18 and we are going to talk about it or start the**  **19 discussion. And not to preempt what she is**  **20 going to say, but we are -- we'd very much**  **21 like to take receipt of any more material you**  **22 can provide us on the kind of arguments that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you've made and your legal counsel has made.**  **2 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Peter from**  **3 Efficiency Vermont.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter.**  **5 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just -- yes.**  **6 I just think that we -- I just don't want to**  **7 lose the concept of looking at this house and**  **8 what we're doing as a whole system. So to**  **9 eliminate any of these that we're talking**  **10 about, I appreciate that, you know, they may**  **11 -- it turns that they are not within our**  **12 scope. But when we talk about the thermal**  **13 envelope, just as an example, eliminating**  **14 ductwork, not only just bringing it inside the**  **15 envelope, which we can have discussions about**  **16 and I'm sure we will, but eliminating the**  **17 ductwork and taking advantage of new**  **18 technologies that eliminate ductwork, you**  **19 know, allows us to achieve the goals that we**  **20 are looking for with regards to R value,**  **21 improved air barrier durability, and so forth.**  **22 So, you know, each one of those, I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 could go down that list, and, you know, it's**  **2 part of the comprehensive system. And while**  **3 it may be defined here as an additional energy**  **4 measure, it certainly has an impact on all of**  **5 the other components that we are discussing**  **6 that are, you know, ultimately within our**  **7 scope clearly.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Thank you.**  **9 MEMBER LEVY: I want some**  **10 recognition for finishing exactly at 10:00.**  **11 (Laughter.)**  **12 Just to make one other comment,**  **13 you know, this is fine to have a list. I**  **14 think we need to start fleshing out what we**  **15 mean by these things, so we have something to**  **16 talk about when we get back together again.**  **17 I'm not sure what the process, Javier, would**  **18 be for moving that forward, for assigning**  **19 responsibilities, other than the things we**  **20 have already assigned out, but --**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Maybe you don't take**  **22 a seat yet, right? We could scroll back up to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the top and make sure that we have either the**  **2 information or the proper assignments for the**  **3 items that are on there, then.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: And just one other**  **5 question. What about all of the other items**  **6 on the back of the term --**  **7 MEMBER LEVY: Yes. I think -- I**  **8 mean, just in consideration of timing, that --**  **9 and my plan was to come forward with more**  **10 detail on that, so we would have the same kind**  **11 of discussion in the subsequent meeting about**  **12 the other topic areas. I think we have a lot**  **13 to digest already.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: All right.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I also make the**  **16 recommendation maybe that you go to the top of**  **17 the document, since this has been a document**  **18 that we have generated in real time or edited**  **19 in real time, and make sure it reflects**  **20 everybody's understanding? And make sure, in**  **21 particular, that the guiding principles I**  **22 think are taken out of this?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: They can be put in**  **2 the parking lot? Or there was a discussion**  **3 about applying the law, the actual charter**  **4 that was given to the Committee. The other**  **5 thing is getting copies of this change for the**  **6 --**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. We can do that**  **8 during the break.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: -- maybe during the**  **10 break, so you have the copy here. But perhaps**  **11 going over it now wouldn't be a bad idea, so**  **12 that the copies reflect what you have talked**  **13 about.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes.**  **15 MEMBER WEISS: I think we all**  **16 recognize that that's a matter that we need to**  **17 deal with, the purchase versus life cycle. I**  **18 don't have a problem with parking lot that**  **19 stuff, you know, it's generic form.**  **20 MEMBER LEVY: So do we want to go**  **21 down through these specific items?**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. On the top** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 over there, Emanuel, if you wouldn't mind,**  **2 maybe just putting a strike through --**  **3 MEMBER LEVY: Why don't we change**  **4 places? Because you have --**  **5 (Pause.)**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So on the --**  **7 thank you, Emanuel. On the top there, guiding**  **8 principles, if we could just put a strike-thru**  **9 on the bullets there, and then right below it**  **10 we'll put a parking lot, right? Or a hold.**  **11 Okay. So starting off with the**  **12 thermal requirements, then, Emanuel, I'm going**  **13 to -- if it's all right, I'll defer to you to**  **14 walk us through it again just to make sure**  **15 that we have, you know, the information or the**  **16 proper assignments and then we'll note it on**  **17 here, what we need to do. Is that all right?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: Yes. I think number**  **19 one here we already have. For the analysis**  **20 that the laboratory has already done, we have**  **21 a comprehensive list. That is our jump off**  **22 point for doing subsequent analysis.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Perfect.**  **2 MEMBER LEVY: Item number 2, we**  **3 have committed to do that. SPRA has committed**  **4 to provide that information. We provided a**  **5 sample table of what that might look like.**  **6 That will be fleshed out -- specifically for**  **7 all of the thermal measures that are in one,**  **8 we will provide industry average costs,**  **9 including max/min values, and also some of the**  **10 unique construction variations on those, like**  **11 cathedral ceilings and the other items that**  **12 are captured below.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: So then you are**  **14 working on that right now?**  **15 MEMBER LEVY: We'll be working on**  **16 that over the next week or two.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: And we'll provide**  **19 that back to the Committee, obviously, for**  **20 discussion and comment.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **22 MR. BANTLE: Just one thing. It** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 says identify cases where reaching -- oops,**  **2 sorry. This is Ted Bantle. Reaching R values**  **3 create a -- was there supposed to be something**  **4 that was lost at the end of that sentence?**  **5 MEMBER LEVY: Might create a**  **6 barrier to the use. Yes, that's fine. I**  **7 think we have consensus that -- to use this**  **8 set of features. This is I believe what the**  **9 laboratory used as a typical set of baseline**  **10 features for the analysis. Obviously, we can**  **11 look at -- we will be looking at variations on**  **12 this, small homes, larger homes, those kinds**  **13 of things.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So I want to**  **15 stress baseline, right? So -- because I think**  **16 the group always gets hung up that we are**  **17 talking about something that is inclusive,**  **18 right? That's all inclusive.**  **19 So as a baseline, do we have**  **20 consensus on these characteristics as a**  **21 baseline? Michael?**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. I just had** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a question on the efficiencies on the**  **2 equipment. And I think -- I just want to get**  **3 a sense of how PNNL handled the thermal**  **4 distribution system, in other words, the heat**  **5 gain or loss from ductwork, either the**  **6 ductwork in the belly or the ductwork**  **7 underneath the home or the ductwork in the**  **8 attic. I need to understand what the**  **9 assumptions were there if we're going to do**  **10 assessments.**  **11 MEMBER LEVY: So there is two**  **12 additions here to the list. One is -- should**  **13 be under heating equipment -- or under the**  **14 equipment should be the ducts, the length of**  **15 the ducts and the insulation value in the**  **16 ducts, for exterior ducts.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Length of duct?**  **18 Length of --**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: Length and**  **20 insulation level of the exterior ducts.**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: It may be useful**  **22 to get just kind of the duct layout of the --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you know, what is the duct system or a series**  **2 of them, so we know the surface area, and not**  **3 just the crossover but all the ducts.**  **4 The reason I think that might be**  **5 appropriate is, you know, if you've got a**  **6 bunch of -- most of your ductwork is the trunk**  **7 duct, say, in the belly, and you've got an R11**  **8 belly blanket down there. And then all of a**  **9 sudden you make an R33 and now those ducts are**  **10 in an R33. While those ducts are in the**  **11 buffered space, there is still a heat loss**  **12 implication benefit by further coupling that**  **13 ductwork to the house.**  **14 So my data need would be is to try**  **15 to have the duct system where -- you know, not**  **16 just the length but the -- just the system**  **17 design specified, or maybe we do three, maybe**  **18 we do one in the floor, one in the attic --**  **19 that is more typical -- and/or just those two**  **20 scenarios. But whatever you think is**  **21 representative of what the industry is doing.**  **22 MEMBER LEVY: Well, I think we are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 talking about these in the vein of, do they**  **2 affect -- do the values we are putting on this**  **3 table affect the result of the life cycle cost**  **4 analysis? And everything we have on the table**  **5 thus far does.**  **6 The amount of insulation in the**  **7 floor vis-à-vis the internal ducts has no**  **8 impact on the LCC analysis. I mean, it's**  **9 interesting in terms of total energy use, but**  **10 it wouldn't be -- it wouldn't change anything**  **11 I guess is the point.**  **12 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. And I**  **13 guess I need to understand what PNNL did on**  **14 the modeling, so we can do that at a separate**  **15 --**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just call a**  **17 timeout here real quick. So when this came up**  **18 last -- yesterday I guess in our discussion,**  **19 I emailed PNNL to ask them to quickly compile**  **20 a document that explained all of their**  **21 assumptions, because some of the assumptions**  **22 were sort of buried in here or people had** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 asked questions about it.**  **2 So they gave me a document late**  **3 last night to -- it was about 10 to 15 pages.**  **4 I'm going through just to make sure, you know,**  **5 that it -- they explain things right. I'll**  **6 try to turn that around, you know, by the**  **7 weekend, end of the weekend for the whole**  **8 group. And that should answer a lot of these**  **9 questions, right? Or, you know, you can flag**  **10 other things that need to be changed.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: So then at the**  **12 bottom of this one we'll just put on here PNNL**  **13 is to provide assumptions.**  **14 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **15 I was just going to add, I mean, just like you**  **16 have efficiency ratings on the furnace, you**  **17 know, I like to think of, you know, the duct**  **18 leakage assumption as an efficiency rating on**  **19 the duct system. So I would have a line item**  **20 there just so it's out in the open that we're**  **21 talking about duct leakage level, you know, on**  **22 a CSM for 100 square feet. That would go the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 same for the air infiltration assumption.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Peter, you're**  **3 going to have to help us out here. How do we**  **4 capture that?**  **5 MEMBER LEVY: Well, I think**  **6 there's a bigger issue here, and I think that**  **7 will be addressed by what Joe just said,**  **8 because it's not just assumptions and**  **9 leakages; it's assumptions about internal**  **10 loads. There's a whole variety of things that**  **11 go into the analysis that may or may not make**  **12 a difference, by the way, in terms of what we**  **13 are looking at but are important to**  **14 understand.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, so are you**  **16 okay with that? Let's get that assumptions**  **17 document and then see if you need further**  **18 information.**  **19 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, that's**  **20 fine.**  **21 MEMBER LEVY: Missing from this**  **22 list is, however, the heat pump efficiency** 

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### 1 assumptions. **2 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. And I 3 didn't see in the modeling -- and maybe that**  **4 was noted -- but where the heat pumps -- I'm 5 assuming those were ducted heat pumps in the**  **6 modeling assumption, and, you know, could we 7 go ductless. And I hate to beat that horse,**  **8 but I just wanted to get clarification on 9 that.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, 11 then, does number 3 look okay like that? Let**  **12 me see a show of thumbs I guess if we're okay 13 with number -- with the table here.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: By the way, Manny, 15 am I blocking your --**  **16 MEMBER SANTANA: Not at all. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So show of 19 thumbs? Good. All right. So we're good on**  **20 number 3. 21 Number 4. What do we need here?**  **22 This is one of the elephants?**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LEVY: This is the one that**  **2 didn't want to go away.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So where do we**  **4 go? Life cycle cost.**  **5 MEMBER WEISS: Didn't Eric make a**  **6 suggestion, motion, whatever, that we consider**  **7 both periods, seven years and the 30?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So let me ask**  **9 the group -- oh, Michael?**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: If we're going**  **11 to consider the seven-year period -- and I**  **12 don't want to beat this one to death -- I'd**  **13 like to get the reference research, the peer**  **14 review research that justifies why we are**  **15 using seven years for the factory built**  **16 housing industry. It seems like -- you know,**  **17 so if that's available and referenceable, or**  **18 if somebody can inform me of this reference,**  **19 thank you.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **21 MEMBER LEVY: There might be a**  **22 reference, and I believe there is, but by the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 same token we have to put the same burden on**  **2 the 30 year. I mean, if you pick a number,**  **3 you've got to defend it.**  **4 MEMBER LUBLINER: I could provide**  **5 references for the 30 year, and I think**  **6 they're yours. You guys did studies that**  **7 looked at the life of manufactured homes.**  **8 When you compared them to site built homes, I**  **9 was thinking that would be a good reference**  **10 for the 30. But my discussion is having to do**  **11 with the seven, my concerns on the seven. We**  **12 can talk about the 30, it's totally legitimate**  **13 we need to have. If people are uncomfortable**  **14 with the 30, then we need to document that**  **15 that's acceptable as well.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So then the**  **17 reference documentation for both seven and 30,**  **18 who is going to get those?**  **19 MEMBER EPPERSON: Stay, Next Step.**  **20 So this may be a clarification question. How**  **21 the seven was originally picked -- I know that**  **22 is also the average time the buyer is in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 home, first time buyer. Is that where that**  **2 seven came from? Okay. And we do have**  **3 document -- we can get documentation to that**  **4 at the Committee level.**  **5 (Off mic comment.)**  **6 MEMBER EPPERSON: Well it's a lone**  **7 data study, as -- it would be, you know, the**  **8 cycle for the buyer being in the home before**  **9 it's sold, but that's where we would be --**  **10 just HUD code, yes.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So for the**  **12 seven year we'll put the Finance Committee --**  **13 we'll get that. How about the 30 year? Luby,**  **14 is that something that you could provide?**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **16 Lubliner. It might be easier -- because I**  **17 think it was work that MHI did that looked at**  **18 the -- compared a site built home to a HUD**  **19 code manufactured home, and it looked at life**  **20 expectancy and stuff. And I think that's**  **21 where I -- and I thought it was actually**  **22 longer than 30.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LEVY: This is Emanuel.**  **2 The Meeks study suggested that the lifetime in**  **3 the home on average is something like 57**  **4 years. But we shouldn't conflate lifetime of**  **5 home with the period for doing the life cycle**  **6 cost analysis. They are really two different**  **7 items in my mind.**  **8 And we are -- and I think the**  **9 reason we are grappling with this is this is**  **10 as much a philosophical issue as anything**  **11 else. And as I tried to characterize**  **12 yesterday, it is the difference between**  **13 thinking about the perspective of the first**  **14 time home buyer and the person who is actually**  **15 making an investment versus the -- all of the**  **16 homeowners that -- over some period of time.**  **17 And so it's not as easy as just**  **18 providing documentation. I think there is a**  **19 philosophical discussion that needs to be a**  **20 matter of principal consensus here.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. And I think**  **22 at some point we're going to have to nail it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 down, right? But as far as just to -- both**  **2 sides are asking for reference documents for**  **3 the seven and the 30. Seven, the Finance**  **4 Committee is going to be assembling that, but**  **5 we need to find out who is going to get at**  **6 least the initial documentation, right, for**  **7 the 30-year cycle.**  **8 MEMBER LEVY: So I would -- if it**  **9 isn't the life of the home, let's not call it**  **10 the life of the home here in the table. Right**  **11 now it says life of the home. It shouldn't be**  **12 called that if what you said is true.**  **13 So I think it's important that we**  **14 talk about the period of the analysis. As I**  **15 said, the 50-something years doesn't really**  **16 matter. When you do the life cycle cost**  **17 analysis, if you use any kind of reasonable**  **18 discount rate, you're going to find that**  **19 anything that happens after the 30th year is**  **20 in the rounding error. So it's really not**  **21 going to matter.**  **22 So I'm fine with the 30, and I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think the documentation that we discussed**  **2 supports that.**  **3 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I**  **4 have a slightly different take. Instead of**  **5 saying either the seven or 30 as the concrete**  **6 bids, which I think we can come to an answer**  **7 on, we should say that the periods of**  **8 analysis, both of which are interesting and**  **9 relevant to our consideration, are the tenure**  **10 of the initial buyer, and then parenthetically**  **11 seven with a question mark, because we want to**  **12 get some more thoughts on that. But what**  **13 we're interested in there is the tenure of**  **14 that first buyer.**  **15 And the second one is the life of**  **16 the home, and parenthetically 30 years, don't**  **17 know. That's what we're actually interested**  **18 in. These are the two different perspectives.**  **19 Well, how is this product going to perform**  **20 over its existence, and how is that first**  **21 buyer going to come out? Those are very**  **22 interesting facts.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And then it changes everything,**  **2 and I think it's actually worth saying under**  **3 A, two cases, both of which are relevant to**  **4 our considerations, or our deliberations.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: And that this**  **6 Committee would like analysis on both, is what**  **7 I heard. Is that correct?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And the only**  **9 -- what we're trying to do here now is assign**  **10 who is -- we are asking for information. We**  **11 don't want to just leave it floating out**  **12 there, right? We want to nail it down as far**  **13 as who is going to be getting it. So we still**  **14 need who is going to get that 30-year**  **15 information analysis. Is it something that**  **16 you could provide?**  **17 MEMBER LEVY: Emanuel. I think we**  **18 are talking about the Meeks study, and I -- I**  **19 believe DOE might have that already. If they**  **20 don't, we can get that.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Meeks, M-E-E-K-S?**  **22 MEMBER LEVY: That's correct. Dr.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Carol Meeks.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Manny.**  **3 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **4 You know, if -- my understanding was that the**  **5 importance of this was how it affected**  **6 purchase price, operating costs. So, then,**  **7 why are we considering the life of the home**  **8 over a 30-year span at all? You know, why not**  **9 just consider the tenure of the initial buyer?**  **10 You know, we can see the reasoning**  **11 for why that's important, right? Because that**  **12 affects somebody getting into the house and**  **13 operating the house and not, you know, going**  **14 upside down in the house or defaulting on the**  **15 loan because they can't handle the energy**  **16 costs. I mean, I don't see how the tenure of**  **17 the life of the home is as relevant.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?**  **19 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. This is Eric**  **20 Lacey. I just want to maybe try to clarify**  **21 that, why this number might be important. The**  **22 seven-year number or whatever that number is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for how long the first purchaser is going to**  **2 be in there might be relevant to the purchase**  **3 price impact, because that is -- you know, you**  **4 need to look at the way it's financed and the**  **5 impact that might have that on first number,**  **6 you know, when there is a closing.**  **7 But the house isn't -- I'm**  **8 guessing the house probably isn't paid off in**  **9 seven years completely, and so the benefits of**  **10 an energy efficiency improvement don't go away**  **11 after seven years. They are actually -- they**  **12 actually come every month, you know, you have**  **13 energy efficiency benefits in terms of a lower**  **14 energy bill, and you may have a higher**  **15 mortgage payment because of those upgrades.**  **16 And so the balance is you want to**  **17 make sure that you are money ahead, really,**  **18 that you are getting more -- you are getting**  **19 some benefits from energy efficiency and that**  **20 it's, you know, outweighing the mortgage**  **21 costs. And I think the life cycle analysis**  **22 will do a better job of that because it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understands that you won't pay it all off, the**  **2 first buyer won't just pay it off in seven**  **3 years and get all of the energy efficiency**  **4 benefits.**  **5 They are getting a month to month**  **6 benefit, along with a month to month kind of**  **7 charge. And the only way to really**  **8 effectively address that is through an**  **9 analysis that looks at, you know, some period.**  **10 And it's typically 30 years, and maybe it's**  **11 different for that -- for manufactured**  **12 housing, but it's -- you know, most houses are**  **13 going to be around for longer than 30 years,**  **14 and a lot of those benefits, the insulation,**  **15 for example, is going to give you a benefit**  **16 for 70 or 100 years. But I think that's why**  **17 maybe two numbers are different for two**  **18 different --**  **19 MEMBER SANTANA: So in response to**  **20 that, I understand everything that Eric said,**  **21 and so I'm thinking that the 30 years --**  **22 there's a reason why 30 years is such a widely** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 used metric, and because that's the typical**  **2 life of a conventional loan, you know, and so**  **3 I -- I think Eric brings up a good point, that**  **4 -- so not only should we consider the tenure**  **5 of the initial buyer, but the tenure of the**  **6 life of the home should be more akin to the**  **7 tenure of the life of the loan, of a typical**  **8 manufactured housing loan.**  **9 You know, if the 30 years is**  **10 typically used because it's associated with a**  **11 conventional loan, then we should use a span**  **12 that is typical of a manufactured housing**  **13 loan.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: So then what -- if I**  **15 understand you correctly, what you're saying,**  **16 then, is that we would have to add a third one**  **17 up there somewhere, because the conventional**  **18 --**  **19 MEMBER SANTANA: Because if**  **20 conventional loans aren't typical for**  **21 manufactured housing, then that's a metric**  **22 that is not suitable for manufactured housing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think we use the terms that are typical for**  **2 manufactured housing. I don't know what those**  **3 are. It could be 20 years. It could be 30**  **4 years. I'm not sure, but I doubt it.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: And correct me if**  **6 I'm wrong, I don't know if this group is**  **7 prepared to ultimately decide on what that**  **8 life cycle year is, right? And so right now**  **9 we are just trying to gather information. We**  **10 will figure out the periods that we need to**  **11 analyze for the savings.**  **12 And so we had the seven and the 30**  **13 year. So if I heard you correctly, what**  **14 you're saying, but let's just do a -- what is**  **15 a life cycle cost? We have to see what that**  **16 -- or, I'm sorry, what the average mortgage**  **17 is, but we don't know -- I think we have an**  **18 idea, but we haven't seen any data on that, of**  **19 what that average is.**  **20 So, for these purposes, to gather**  **21 data, do we need to add a middle one in there**  **22 for the average loan?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SANTANA: Right. I don't**  **2 think we have to add an extra one. I think we**  **3 are talking about the same one, which would**  **4 replace the tenure of the life of the home.**  **5 The tenure of the life of the home should be**  **6 a span of time, right, which is past the**  **7 initial buyer, right, but it shouldn't be past**  **8 what the loan is or the terms of the original**  **9 loan is.**  **10 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin.**  **11 Actually, I think it needs to go for the life**  **12 of the home. I'm interested in seeing what**  **13 the benefits of the energy measures that we**  **14 are contemplating there are for all the folks**  **15 who are going to have the benefit of living in**  **16 that home for the time that it's standing and**  **17 working. That's what is really interesting to**  **18 me.**  **19 I mean, I take your point that**  **20 it's something also interesting about a**  **21 mortgage. I'm not really sure what's**  **22 interesting about that mortgage, but --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SANTANA: You know, one**  **2 thing that's interesting, I don't think it's**  **3 as relevant to the discussions as they pertain**  **4 to how energy increases affect the cost of the**  **5 home. I mean, it's interesting. We want to**  **6 see how it performs, and the better that it**  **7 performs over the course of its entire life,**  **8 the structure is standing, we want that to be**  **9 as best as they can. But as it applies to the**  **10 consumer, and us taking measures that are**  **11 going to increase costs to the consumer, it**  **12 has to be tied back to that. So --**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's go to Mark,**  **14 Stacy, then Michael.**  **15 MEMBER WEISS: Yes. I agree with**  **16 Manny's reasoning. At a minimum, I think we**  **17 should put the average life span of a loan as**  **18 one of the parameters to be looked at and to**  **19 gather data for. So, at a minimum, I would**  **20 include that. Whether or not we strike off 30**  **21 years is another matter.**  **22 One other point -- and, again, I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 step outside of my field with trepidation, but**  **2 if you're going to look at a 30-year span,**  **3 shouldn't those numbers also -- and I don't**  **4 know to formulate this correctly maybe, but**  **5 shouldn't that span be discounted in some**  **6 fashion based on the number of people you are**  **7 potentially excluding from the market and the**  **8 contraction of the overall utilization of**  **9 manufactured housing as a result of purchase**  **10 price increases? Isn't there some discount**  **11 factor that should be applied to that?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: So to answer**  **14 Mark's question, from my understanding is we**  **15 are talking about two separate analyses. This**  **16 is what Robin was trying to explain to Manny,**  **17 and we keep jumping back. We keep having this**  **18 cycle thing over and over. You guys keep**  **19 saying it's -- yes, we'll address that, but**  **20 that can't be addressed in the life cycle cost**  **21 analysis. We'll address that -- once we**  **22 figure out what the bar is, how many people** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 can no longer afford that, but we have to do**  **2 these independent. I don't know of a way you**  **3 can do what you want.**  **4 Also, I want to get back to the**  **5 issue. If you talk to an economics professor,**  **6 or anybody, this thing is going to get public.**  **7 It is going to go public. People are going to**  **8 see it. You're going to have to justify that**  **9 your economics approach is correct. In other**  **10 words, it accounts for all of the benefits of**  **11 the energy savings package over the life of**  **12 the home.**  **13 Life cycle costing does that, and**  **14 it's typically based on the life of the home,**  **15 not the life of the mortgage. So you're going**  **16 to have to be able to justify to the**  **17 economists that are going to be reviewing this**  **18 that. Now, I don't know. I'm not an**  **19 economist, but I do think that there will be**  **20 a lot of criticism if we try to integrate**  **21 these two processes of the people that can't**  **22 afford it any longer from setting the bar, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I also think there would be a significant**  **2 amount of back-push if we get into a situation**  **3 where we are trying to justify doing a period**  **4 of analysis that doesn't consider all of the**  **5 energy benefits that are being purchased by**  **6 the consumer.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in, just**  **8 because I -- again, we're not going to resolve**  **9 this number today. And I understand the**  **10 importance, right? This is one of the bigger**  **11 issues that we are going to have to deal with.**  **12 I don't want to take up a bunch of**  **13 time discussing the merits of it today, just**  **14 because I don't think we have the information**  **15 that we need in order to truly do that, right?**  **16 But as far as to move forward, what do you**  **17 think of not eliminating anything, but adding**  **18 that middle one in there? And I guess before**  **19 I fully commit, Joe, is that going to be -- is**  **20 that -- am I throwing out a bunch of**  **21 additional work here by adding a middle one in**  **22 there?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: And I guess I would**  **2 ask, Stacy, is that a number that is**  **3 verifiable and useable?**  **4 MEMBER EPPERSON: Yes. That's a**  **5 number that's verifiable. You know, you're**  **6 going to have two different loan types,**  **7 though, so are we asking an average of the**  **8 two. Very different loan products -- chattel**  **9 and real estate.**  **10 (Off mic comment.)**  **11 MEMBER EPPERSON: Except it's a**  **12 much shorter term. So there is a little bit**  **13 of complexity with it, but I'm sure our**  **14 Committee can do it.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And we'll just**  **16 need some rationale for how you came up with**  **17 that average, right?**  **18 Emanuel?**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: Yes. There's one**  **20 piece of information we're missing here that**  **21 falls into lap I think, Stacy, and which makes**  **22 the seven year and the tenure of the home --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the tenure of the home buyer and the tenure of**  **2 the home much different, and that is the**  **3 assumption about what is recaptured in terms**  **4 of -- at the end of the power of ownership of**  **5 the cost of the measures.**  **6 So if the additional measures that**  **7 we are talking about cost $5,000 more, and the**  **8 homeowner is not able to get some residual**  **9 value from those, and loses that entire value,**  **10 they face a significant economic impact of**  **11 that. So whether you determine -- whether**  **12 they get zero value back, 50 percent, or 100**  **13 percent, it makes a huge difference in terms**  **14 of what the difference will be between the**  **15 number 1 there and number 3. So that's also**  **16 in your wheelhouse.**  **17 MEMBER EPPERSON: May I?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **19 MEMBER EPPERSON: Just so I'm**  **20 clear, you know, the tenure of the initial**  **21 buyer, that loan ends there, right, in terms**  **22 of that first loan. So that's how we get to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 seven years, okay? That loan paid off. Now**  **2 you're asking us for tenure of the average**  **3 loan. I'm not sure that tells us anything, so**  **4 I'm asking -- I want to be enlightened here,**  **5 because, you know, the tenure of the average**  **6 loan length, isn't that seven years, what I**  **7 just said, if that loan pays off? Or do you**  **8 want the initial loan that doesn't really, in**  **9 my mind, tell us anything because it's**  **10 probably an average, I'll guess -- appease me**  **11 here -- of 12 years. Okay?**  **12 Well, that's when you go into the**  **13 deal with a 12-year loan. You may not stay**  **14 there, so just clarification on what you're**  **15 after.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Robin?**  **17 MEMBER ROY: Hi. Robin. I'm**  **18 after a couple of things. But, first, to**  **19 reinforce what Emanuel just said, I think it**  **20 is very interesting. If there is no recovery**  **21 of some of the additional cost upon sale,**  **22 that's worth noting. And then, all of that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 additional cost that we were concerned about**  **2 making something less affordable is making --**  **3 is really not being mitigated by anything.**  **4 But to the extent it is being mitigated by a**  **5 higher resale value, that's interesting.**  **6 We are kind of assuming it's about**  **7 a zero, so it would be interesting to see if**  **8 it's a non-zero number, because that's a**  **9 different way to recapture some of that**  **10 savings, for those that haven't been excluded**  **11 from being able to buy in the first place.**  **12 So that's a very interesting one.**  **13 I think that's a tremendously important point.**  **14 Is there any recapture of higher cost upon**  **15 sale from that first buyer?**  **16 On the second point, I'm not**  **17 really looking for the average loan length.**  **18 I appreciate Manny's interest in it. I don't**  **19 feel that same interest. I'm very interested**  **20 in what that first buyer is going to have to**  **21 face, and I'm very interested in what, very**  **22 broadly, society, all the folks that will own** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that house will be facing, what they will be**  **2 paying and what they will be receiving back**  **3 from it.**  **4 So I like the "too" on the end.**  **5 It's very informative.**  **6 MEMBER EPPERSON: I concur with**  **7 you, Robin, exactly where you are, and**  **8 Emanuel, too.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Did you have**  **10 anything else, Emanuel?**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: So just so I know,**  **12 are we back to the two measures at this point?**  **13 No. Okay. We're still looking at a potential**  **14 middle third. Okay. Just want to check. All**  **15 right.**  **16 MR. BANTLE: Just process stuff.**  **17 We still haven't answered I think clearly. We**  **18 have the Meeks study for the 30-year period.**  **19 Who will be providing that?**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh. Emanuel.**  **21 MR. BANTLE: Okay.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: I wanted to just** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 raise something that was handed to me from**  **2 Scott Drake, one of our members. He said --**  **3 this is on this topic -- "We use 20 years for**  **4 stick-built homes when determining the rebates**  **5 we pay. Thirty years gets too long for good**  **6 assumptions. Seven leaves too much energy**  **7 savings out of the calculation." So he has**  **8 now put 20 years into the mix, so we have it.**  **9 Is Scott available to elaborate?**  **10 Scott? Oh, he's -- okay. So we know there**  **11 are other numbers here.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. I just**  **14 want to seek clarification from Scott that the**  **15 use of the 20 years is for looking at consumer**  **16 cost effectiveness or for the utility cost**  **17 effectiveness of their incentives. I don't**  **18 want to --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: -- because they**  **21 are two separate economic analyses, and I**  **22 wasn't clear from that wording which one it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 was.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, we'll see if**  **3 he gives a response to that. In the meantime,**  **4 Robin?**  **5 MEMBER ROY: Different topic.**  **6 Explain up at the top under the scope, item 1**  **7 -- sorry I didn't bring it up a while ago. I**  **8 stepped out. Is it too late to bring that up?**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, under scope,**  **10 we just tabled -- we just --**  **11 MEMBER ROY: No, not the guiding**  **12 principles.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me just one**  **15 sec. Scott said "both." The answer to your**  **16 question was both, for both purposes. Okay.**  **17 Sorry.**  **18 MEMBER ROY: Because their**  **19 consumers are their owners, co-ops, very**  **20 interesting structures. I just want to make**  **21 sure that we are not with any of this language**  **22 inadvertently foreclosing the expression of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 our interest in looking at the U factor and UA**  **2 approaches to setting up a standard by only**  **3 mentioning Uo in this document. I think the**  **4 -- well, it just is such a fundamental**  **5 statement at the beginning. I just don't want**  **6 to have it missed, if we really do think that**  **7 this might be a useful thing for the industry**  **8 to go with.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you want to put**  **10 in there more explicitly multiple compliance**  **11 paths?**  **12 MEMBER ROY: Well, I'm also -- I**  **13 just want to have some language. I'm not sure**  **14 what the language is. I don't want to**  **15 complicate what you're doing. I understand**  **16 why the Uo is a very interesting thing to have**  **17 here, but just -- I'm not sure what the**  **18 language is, but something has to be there.**  **19 I would be specifically referencing the UA and**  **20 U factor -- I would specifically reference the**  **21 UA and U factor approaches in the IECC 2015.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: The Uo and --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROY: UA.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: -- UA --**  **3 MEMBER ROY: And U factor.**  **4 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. I**  **5 don't know if we want to limit it to those,**  **6 just those. I like leaving it open to any,**  **7 you know, performance path or whatever we**  **8 decide is -- I want to make sure the**  **9 manufacturers have all the options.**  **10 MEMBER ROY: I agree. I'm happy**  **11 with that, too. As long as it's --**  **12 MEMBER TOMPOS: So I don't know if**  **13 we just go back to what -- do we just cross**  **14 that out and put allowable thermal**  **15 requirements, is that --**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. With**  **17 multiple -- with potentially multiple**  **18 compliance paths.**  **19 MEMBER TOMPOS: There you go. I**  **20 think that sounds great.**  **21 MR. BANTLE: Allow thermal**  **22 requirements, and then add that language?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that look**  **2 better to everyone? Okay.**  **3 MR. BANTLE: Just one question.**  **4 This is Ted. We had done kind of a mini**  **5 consensus check, I believe on this Section 1,**  **6 and on the chart. Is that correct? I believe**  **7 we did that today?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **9 MR. BANTLE: Is it all right if I**  **10 put consensus and then today's date in the**  **11 red, just so we have that? Because I saw we**  **12 have consensus in other parts of this**  **13 document.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I think**  **15 Emanuel was putting it in there just to --**  **16 just as a reminder to check to make sure that**  **17 we have consensus.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Just another**  **19 reminder, you're going to get a Word document**  **20 that has all of those assumptions detailed**  **21 out, so I would wait before you agree to that,**  **22 until you read this document.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. BANTLE: Okay.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And so I guess**  **3 the consensus that we're talking about right**  **4 now is just that, yes, this is okay, to gather**  **5 that information and move forward in this**  **6 format. Right.**  **7 MR. BANTLE: So should I leave the**  **8 red consensus in there that we had -- that**  **9 we've had in since the beginning? Or is that**  **10 somewhat confusing?**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I think those**  **12 are just markers that Emanuel put in there**  **13 just to make sure that we do get it**  **14 eventually.**  **15 MR. BANTLE: Okay. And one last**  **16 note, I added -- on our second bullet point I**  **17 added -- I believe the Finance Committee was**  **18 going to get that length as well, on average**  **19 length of loan, so I added that in.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Perfect.**  **21 Thank you.**  **22 Yes, Eric?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LACEY: This is Eric. One**  **2 more issue that I just wanted to mention**  **3 before we left the thermal requirements. I'm**  **4 assuming that thermal requirements includes**  **5 not just the U factors but also the SHGC. I**  **6 just don't want that -- I don't want that to**  **7 get dropped off unintentionally. And since**  **8 you took out Uo value, maybe that's, you know,**  **9 not a big deal.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: So allowing multiple**  **11 compliance paths, would that cover that?**  **12 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. It's the**  **13 term, you know, maximum allowable thermal**  **14 requirements. I guess for the sake of -- you**  **15 know, so that the analysts don't leave this**  **16 out, but I want to make sure that it's not**  **17 just the U factors, but also the SHGC.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Want to put in**  **19 parentheses right there "including SHGC"?**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: Sure. Including**  **21 SHGC, I think would -- does that work for --**  **22 MEMBER SANTANA: You know, I think** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 it's all inclusive. I think that's all **2 inclusive. We would have SHGC under 3 Section 3.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay with that? 5 Okay. Robin, did you have anything**  **6 additional? Okay. 7 Okay. B?**  **8 MEMBER EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. 9 Can I make a comment about the scope back up**  **10 there under thermal requirements? Just for 11 clarification. The numbers that are in the**  **12 PNNL tables, the U value numbers and the 13 insulation numbers, and all of the thermal**  **14 criteria, we are going to use those for this 15 analysis. Is that correct?**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. 17 MEMBER EZZO: Okay. So you might**  **18 want to say up there in scope that, you know, 19 it is going to be based on the IECC 2015.**  **20 Maybe you put slash PNNL just so we're clear 21 that we're not going out of the raw data that**  **22 is in the actual code. Am I saying that**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 right?**  **2 I mean, there are things in the**  **3 PNNL tables that are different than what is in**  **4 the prescriptive IECC.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Is under covered**  **6 under number 1?**  **7 MEMBER EZZO: Yes. As long as --**  **8 yes, okay, I see it now. So, okay.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Great. Thank**  **10 you.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: As long as it's**  **12 explicit, I think is his point.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that capture**  **14 it, under number 1, though? Is that explicit**  **15 enough?**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: The members will**  **17 have to decide. It is for me, but --**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, but --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: We should ask, is it**  **20 explicit enough for the members of the**  **21 Committee?**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Show of thumbs here.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. I didn't**  **3 see any thumbs down, so we're -- we're moving.**  **4 Okay. B, C, D, E, and F, is that**  **5 accurate, will be from the Finance Committee?**  **6 All right. Is there anything that's needed on**  **7 G?**  **8 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I**  **9 think the Finance Committee has another brief**  **10 now also, and that's to take an estimate of**  **11 the recapture or the higher value upon resale.**  **12 Is that up there somewhere?**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's add a --**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: And on the discount**  **15 rate, John Caskey -- oh. On the discount rate**  **16 -- this is Eileen Hoffman -- John Caskey**  **17 mentioned yesterday about an OMB Circular with**  **18 seven percent discount. So maybe you want to**  **19 include John on your committee.**  **20 MR. BANTLE: Are we okay adding**  **21 this as --**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: And, Robin, could** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you restate it, so it's a recapture of --**  **2 MEMBER ROY: Impact on resale**  **3 price of energy efficiency measures -- of**  **4 energy efficiency characteristics.**  **5 MEMBER WEISS: Question for**  **6 Emanuel. Is that too narrow? Should it be --**  **7 should it be resale/recap? Something like**  **8 resale/recapture, phrased that way?**  **9 MEMBER LEVY: Yes. As a practical**  **10 matter, we need a percentage of the cost**  **11 that's recaptured at sale.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Stacy?**  **13 MEMBER EPPERSON: So I just asked**  **14 Mike if he's got data. He does. Emanuel, do**  **15 you also have any -- do you have data around**  **16 this issue at all? Is there research you know**  **17 of?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: It's -- what we know**  **19 is very anecdotal.**  **20 MEMBER EPPERSON: That's what I**  **21 thought. Okay.**  **22 MEMBER LUTER: This is Rob. Are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we not trying to recapture the investment as**  **2 opposed to the characteristics, investment in**  **3 energy efficiency characteristics?**  **4 MEMBER LEVY: Yes. The investment**  **5 will come out of the analysis. That will be**  **6 determined by what is shown to be cost**  **7 effective. That -- the cost difference**  **8 between that and the HUD code or whatever our**  **9 baseline is, that cost difference is what**  **10 we're looking at recapturing the value of at**  **11 resale.**  **12 MEMBER LUTER: Understood. I was**  **13 just addressing the grammatical issues of the**  **14 sentence here.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: How would you like**  **16 to see it changed?**  **17 MEMBER LUTER: It has been**  **18 changed. It looks fine now.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER LEVY: Just as a point of**  **21 clarification, I think what Robin mentioned**  **22 earlier was the idea that we -- our starting** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 position on this is that it's a zero**  **2 recapture, and we might do a sensitivity study**  **3 to other recapture rates, just as a point of**  **4 information. But I don't see any reason not**  **5 to start with a zero assumption. Robin?**  **6 MEMBER ROY: If we don't have a**  **7 basis for a non-zero number, then let's use a**  **8 non-zero number. If you have some good ideas**  **9 on a different number, that's fine, too.**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: I don't want to**  **11 be committed to -- I want you guys to take the**  **12 NADA software and put in the energy efficiency**  **13 improvements for a chattel loan and figure out**  **14 what the recovery is. That's the only data we**  **15 have, and that's not zero. It's not even**  **16 close to zero.**  **17 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I'm**  **18 happy to run that up.**  **19 MEMBER LUBLINER: What's that?**  **20 MEMBER ROY: That sounds fine.**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. So what I**  **22 -- instead of putting Lubliner there, could** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you put NADA, and you guys can buy the**  **2 software and do the analysis. I think it's**  **3 $200, and you probably have that software**  **4 already. If you're in the industry, I imagine**  **5 you have it, so -- anyway, if you don't, I**  **6 could certainly directly you to it.**  **7 I can't do it -- the work with my**  **8 personal license copy of the software, nor do**  **9 I want to commit to do that, because I have**  **10 other things that I'll be doing on the**  **11 committee. So I -- but if -- this is a**  **12 slippery slope, and this is why I have some**  **13 concern about why we're doing a seven-year**  **14 analysis. But if you are, it's GIGO, garbage**  **15 in equals garbage out.**  **16 And the garbage that I'm worried**  **17 about going in is an assumption that you buy**  **18 a home for a thousand, say, dollars more, and**  **19 in seven years there is no value, and you take**  **20 a homeowner and go out to the lot and this**  **21 home has ENERGY STAR windows and this home**  **22 doesn't, this home has two by six walls, this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 home doesn't, with -- this home has R38, and**  **2 you're going to tell me that the value of that**  **3 is zero to the next buyer? I mean, that just**  **4 doesn't jibe with any economic model I know**  **5 of.**  **6 So if you have data to support**  **7 that, that's great. But my preference is not**  **8 to go down that path. But if we're going to**  **9 go down that path, we should at least attempt**  **10 to use what is out there in your industry,**  **11 which is the NADA stuff.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: What I'm hearing --**  **13 this is Eileen -- is, Robin, are you**  **14 volunteering to do that analysis?**  **15 MEMBER ROY: I'm volunteering to**  **16 go down that path and see what we can acquire**  **17 from the reasonable cost.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So why don't**  **19 we put Robin down and move on, if that's all**  **20 right with the group.**  **21 MEMBER EPPERSON: I would like to**  **22 make one comment, though. NADA is not the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 only way value is determined in the**  **2 marketplace. In fact, Next Step does not use**  **3 NADA. We use an appraisal process working**  **4 trying to get the value for energy. So I do**  **5 not have access to this model to run it. It**  **6 is not something at Next Step we have embraced**  **7 as one solution, so that's for us to figure**  **8 out.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you work with**  **10 Robin, then?**  **11 MEMBER EPPERSON: Do we have it,**  **12 Robin?**  **13 MEMBER ROY: I am working with you**  **14 on your subcommittee already.**  **15 MEMBER EPPERSON: Do you have**  **16 access to it?**  **17 MEMBER ROY: We can buy access to**  **18 it.**  **19 MEMBER EPPERSON: Okay.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So you'll**  **21 both work on it, and the Finance Committee**  **22 will. Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **2 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. Don't get**  **3 me wrong, I think that if we have estimates**  **4 from other sources than NADA, we should**  **5 absolutely use them. And to the extent that**  **6 I'm hearing, though, that the chattel mortgage**  **7 is a big component of the industry, we can't**  **8 ignore that. We can't take all of the**  **9 benefits that one side takes from making that**  **10 case and not recognize the value that that**  **11 process adds.**  **12 So I thought that if we agree that**  **13 NADA's resale value is representative of**  **14 chattel mortgage, then maybe that's the best**  **15 available data we have for that. For the**  **16 others, I would use the experience you have.**  **17 And I have a letter from the**  **18 Director of NADA, and this is -- I'm going to**  **19 submit this for you guys, so you can follow up**  **20 with her. "It was a pleasure speaking with**  **21 you yesterday. We have recognized Super Good**  **22 Sense and ENERGY STAR home cost options in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 printed Manufactured Housing Cost Guide for a**  **2 number of years." Over 20, I believe.**  **3 "While the printed guide is no**  **4 longer in production, additional features and**  **5 costs for both home energy option types**  **6 continues to be a selection for our users of**  **7 our electronic products, NADA guides,**  **8 manufactured housing connect, which replaces**  **9 this printed guide.**  **10 "I have received the updated NEME**  **11 and ECO-ADELS and will be adding them as**  **12 images for reference in the NADA Manufactured**  **13 Housing Guide."**  **14 And I think your product is also**  **15 recognized there. So I guess I have a concern**  **16 when you say that there is zero value, but**  **17 your product is recognized here as having --**  **18 and I'd just leave it at that.**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: Let me just clarify,**  **20 Mike.**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: Okay.**  **22 MEMBER LEVY: A couple of things.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 One is, yes, we also have a page in the NADA**  **2 guide, and I offered to provide that page to**  **3 the committee. Our experience has been that**  **4 we were happy to have that information**  **5 included. Our experience has been in talking**  **6 to the NADA people and to people who sell**  **7 homes, because we are quite interested in**  **8 this. Your label is for the northwest; our**  **9 label covers the rest of the country. And so**  **10 we are interested to know what kind of**  **11 traction it is getting.**  **12 And when I said earlier our**  **13 experience is anecdotal, it comes from talking**  **14 to people in the resale business. And I ask,**  **15 "To what extent are you using our material?"**  **16 And they're saying, "What material?" And so**  **17 they are not -- yes, they might meet ENERGY**  **18 STAR, but they are using that as a point of**  **19 sale and/or they are not recognizing the**  **20 higher value as a result of the fact that**  **21 those measures are in the homes.**  **22 And it could be simply because the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 salespeople are not qualified to deliver that**  **2 message. Whatever the reason, it is -- the**  **3 effective result is a zero net value for those**  **4 features.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: I just want to do a**  **6 process check. We want to have a break. We**  **7 also want to hear from the GC with some**  **8 questions that you had asked her. And we want**  **9 to continue this, and we'll be hearing from**  **10 Eric about multiple compliance approaches.**  **11 So I'll yield to the group, but**  **12 what about a 15-minute break now? Okay.**  **13 Fine. Okay. So what about 15 minutes, come**  **14 back, and then we'll talk about if we hear**  **15 from the GC first or just continue with this.**  **16 Okay? But we will get both done.**  **17 Thank you.**  **18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **19 matter went off the record at 10:51 a.m. and**  **20 resumed at 11:13 a.m.)**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, everybody,**  **22 we're back on for the continuation of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Working Group's meeting. And we were still**  **2 going over the straw man proposed framework**  **3 for developing a term sheet. So let's go back**  **4 to where we were and see if we can pick up the**  **5 pace and also assign some job duties.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm thinking that**  **7 realistically the other item probably should**  **8 -- I don't know there's a lot of assignments**  **9 that need to be doled out on some of the other**  **10 stuff, but we'll take a look at it and see if**  **11 there's anything that we need to fill in.**  **12 So I think, if I'm not mistaken,**  **13 we are done with the -- can you scroll up to**  **14 that economics stuff? I think we're done with**  **15 all that stuff. So let's go down to the next**  **16 point then, the analysis.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Put your thing on,**  **18 yes.**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: Sorry, Emanuel. I**  **20 don't think this is relevant any more. I**  **21 think this has kind of been superseded by**  **22 subsequent conversation, and this is really** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what the Laboratory and Navigant will be**  **2 doing.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: So that's all**  **4 analysis or just one?**  **5 MEMBER LEVY: Right, this is kind**  **6 of a description of what would be done with**  **7 the data that's above.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then**  **9 let's go down to -- you can leave it on there.**  **10 That's encompassed in some of the data that**  **11 the folks have already been assigned. They're**  **12 working on that, so I think we'll be okay with**  **13 just leaving it there.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: What did you have in**  **15 mind, Emanuel?**  **16 MEMBER LEVY: I think that's**  **17 right. I think this was intended to be the**  **18 directive to the contractor, what to do next.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **20 MEMBER LEVY: This needs to be**  **21 probably wordsmithed a bit.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: So put on wordsmith** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and rework it.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: And so is that**  **3 something that you're going to take a shot at?**  **4 MEMBER LEVY: We can do that,**  **5 sure.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Now what about the**  **8 results? That also -- results?**  **9 MEMBER LEVY: We're now talking**  **10 about a lot of other kinds of results and**  **11 sensitivity studies. I don't think we need to**  **12 capture -- take the time right now to capture**  **13 those.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: That's something**  **15 you're working on. As the stuff comes in and**  **16 you see little tweaks that you're going to be**  **17 asking for as far as the data goes, is that**  **18 accurate?**  **19 MEMBER LEVY: Sorry, Emanuel. Are**  **20 you talking about the results?**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **22 MEMBER LEVY: This is basically** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what our expectation is of what's going to**  **2 come out of the analysis, what we're going to**  **3 end up with. And it just needs to now reflect**  **4 better, all the changes we'd need to -- what**  **5 the data collection is, what will be the**  **6 analysis.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: So add it to his**  **8 wordsmithing. We're adding it to your**  **9 wordsmithing duties, okay?**  **10 Okay, other economic**  **11 considerations. Any comments? There seems to**  **12 be a need for data or stories for number two,**  **13 the additional cases with economic burdens.**  **14 And I wondered if Dave would like to, David**  **15 Tompos, would like to take that on and maybe**  **16 chat with his colleagues.**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: I can do that. I'm**  **18 currently working on some diagrams so we can**  **19 at least put them in picture form so everybody**  **20 can understand them.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Great. I've been**  **22 given good instructions to make you in charge,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 but please feel free to talk to other folks as**  **2 well.**  **3 MR. TOMPOS: I'm extremely excited**  **4 to take that on.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. Or as we**  **6 say you've been "voluntold."**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Going up to number**  **8 one, is there anything to be done on that?**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: This is what we**  **10 brainstormed this morning.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I see that**  **12 there's some studies that are going to be done**  **13 on C. But what about A and B? Do we need**  **14 anything on those? And if so, who is taking**  **15 care of those?**  **16 MEMBER LEVY: Emanuel. I think**  **17 that those items were place markers for when**  **18 we start to describe what we have in mind in**  **19 terms of inspections and compliance, that we**  **20 make sure we capture those costs, but I think**  **21 it's early to start thinking about what those**  **22 might be.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: So no action right**  **2 now. And then C, there were some studies that**  **3 were in there. Did somebody assemble those or**  **4 is that part of what you said?**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: That's what David**  **6 was going to work on.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I see on C**  **8 that the NAHB study that Eric sent that to me,**  **9 correct? And I just brought it on to the**  **10 entire work group during the break. But**  **11 there's some other components in there. Who**  **12 is going to get those?**  **13 MEMBER LEVY: The Meeks study I'm**  **14 going to put in Lois' hands because that's an**  **15 MHI study.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so Lois will**  **17 take care of that?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: If you would note**  **19 that so she knows.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. The March and**  **21 Meeks study.**  **22 MEMBER LEVY: Just the Meeks** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 study.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, the Meeks.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll make sure she**  **4 knows then. Okay.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: What about Marsh,**  **6 Marks and Eckman?**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: That's Luby.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: We just volunteered**  **9 you to do some stuff.**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: So Joe has both**  **11 those studies? Sorry, last night I sent**  **12 those, both those studies to Joe.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Can you forward**  **14 those to me and I'll forward them to the work**  **15 group?**  **16 MEMBER LUBLINER: Absolutely. But**  **17 Joe, are you all right, forwarding?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Marsh, Marks and**  **19 Eckman.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: I was going to**  **21 forward everything you sent probably after**  **22 this meeting when I get some breathing time.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: You don't have to do**  **2 it right this moment, but okay, as long as**  **3 you'll forward that.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, Eric?**  **5 MEMBER LACEY: This is Eric. The**  **6 NAHB study probably doesn't belong in the**  **7 price elasticity of demand. It's a life**  **8 expectancy of measures. And so that probably**  **9 goes up in the discussion of life-cycle cost**  **10 analysis, not in the price elasticity. Small**  **11 detail.**  **12 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss. I**  **13 wasn't talking about the one that was**  **14 distributed today. I was talking about the**  **15 one that came out a few days ago or a couple**  **16 of weeks ago on the cost impacts, exclusion**  **17 and cost impacts.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you have a copy**  **19 of that?**  **20 MEMBER WEISS: The one that Mr.**  **21 Surrena was talking about at our last meeting**  **22 and I believe that's available on line. So I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 guess we can --**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: You can send us the**  **3 link.**  **4 MR. SURRENA: I'm sorry, I zoomed**  **5 out for a second.**  **6 MEMBER WEISS: The NAHB study on**  **7 cost impacts, on exclusion impacts that you**  **8 addressed at our last meeting.**  **9 MR. SURRENA: Yes.**  **10 MEMBER WEISS: That is available**  **11 online in its entirety.**  **12 MR. SURRENA: Yes.**  **13 MEMBER WEISS: Okay.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: And you can send us**  **15 the link.**  **16 MEMBER WEISS: That's what I was**  **17 referring to and we can get that.**  **18 MR. SURRENA: I will send the link**  **19 to whomever.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Joe and Javier, the**  **21 committee, yes.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Don. Is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that good, Mark? Exclusionary cost impact?**  **2 Okay. And that will be forwarded to the**  **3 working group.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: By the way, do we**  **5 need anyone besides David on number two or can**  **6 you deal with all of those, A, B, C, D?**  **7 MR. TOMPOS: I think I can put**  **8 something together for all those.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **10 MR. TOMPOS: Again, not knowing**  **11 what U values we're talking about kind of**  **12 makes it difficult to decide if we have a**  **13 problem or not. We may be getting a little**  **14 bit ahead of ourselves.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, keep moving.**  **16 I think we ended with the additional energy**  **17 measure properties with Eric providing some**  **18 resources. Is that right? And we put Eric**  **19 down there. Were you going to --**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, this is Eric.**  **21 I think I was going to provide a list of other**  **22 measures that are required by the IECC that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 may not be reflected in the typical use of Uo**  **2 calculation.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: And you're going to**  **4 send it to all of us?**  **5 MEMBER LACEY: Yes.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Great. Anything**  **7 else on that? Okay, I think that's a good**  **8 start. We'll have copies of this for**  **9 everyone. Does everybody have a -- yes?**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: Can we go back**  **11 to that list again?**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. I think you**  **13 had some stricter standards, too.**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Is a heat pump**  **15 water heater on there? Heat pump water**  **16 heater. So I would move that because it's not**  **17 -- I think you want to separate where the**  **18 heating from domestic hot water so you're not**  **19 overlapping things. So maybe you could just**  **20 make DHW systems its own bullet and then put**  **21 heat pump water heaters and tankless water**  **22 heaters. Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Mark?**  **2 MEMBER WEISS: I guess under data**  **3 needs and I would just appreciate this as a**  **4 reminder to me. I want to provide some**  **5 information related to what Manny was talking**  **6 about earlier. We've been hearing a lot about**  **7 Vermont and the Northwest and that's fine, but**  **8 that's not where the bulk of manufactured home**  **9 shipments go. I'd like to provide the working**  **10 group with some data dealing with that, with**  **11 the distribution of those shipments around the**  **12 country. It should be valuable for looking at**  **13 zones and that sort of thing?**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Great. Where would**  **15 it go in here or just in general?**  **16 MEMBER WEISS: Basically, it's**  **17 just a reminder for me to provide it to you so**  **18 --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, because once**  **20 you're on this list, you're on the list.**  **21 MEMBER WEISS: Right.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: So Mark, is there a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 name for that?**  **2 MEMBER WEISS: I would just call**  **3 it shipment distribution, should be by state**  **4 distribution.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Good. Any other**  **6 comments on this at this point? Okay. What**  **7 we'd like to do now is hear from the general**  **8 counsel. Oh, sorry.**  **9 MEMBER LEVY: There was one data**  **10 need that came up. I'm not sure it's been**  **11 assigned. Robin, I think, mentioned it, which**  **12 is the distribution of heating equipment type**  **13 by location which is something we're going to**  **14 need at some point, particularly for the cost**  **15 benefit analysis.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Heating equipment**  **17 type by location? Who would have that data?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: Million dollar**  **19 question. The American Housing Survey.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Robin, put your**  **21 thing -- yes.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: I can answer that,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 too. So the American Housing Survey is where**  **2 we pulled it from the last list that we used**  **3 and I've already asked the PNNL team per**  **4 Mark's suggestion to update that with the 2011**  **5 data. So that version of the analysis you're**  **6 going to see updated.**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: Just to clarify.**  **8 It was the micro data or something that was**  **9 referenced. Is that just the manufactured**  **10 housing component of the survey or does that**  **11 represent all of the --**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't know the**  **13 answer to that, but I can find out.**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thank you.**  **15 That's really, really important.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: So Emanuel, does**  **17 that capture what you need?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: What we'll need,**  **19 yes, I personally don't think the housing**  **20 survey is very good, very accurate, because it**  **21 looks at all the historic data and what is**  **22 being built today may not be what has been** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 built historically, particularly when it comes**  **2 to heat pumps. So there may be other sources**  **3 for this. For example, there are only a**  **4 handful of manufacturers of equipment for the**  **5 industry. They know where they're selling**  **6 equipment. So they may be a source of sales.**  **7 Their sales data may be a source of**  **8 information.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: How do we get that?**  **10 MEMBER ROY: I think it's a fine**  **11 test to call the small number of manufacturers**  **12 and solicit that information. It's almost**  **13 their task or DOE, somebody.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: And we might have**  **15 some shipment data from previous rules for**  **16 water heaters?**  **17 MEMBER ROY: We almost certainly**  **18 do.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'd also suggest**  **21 that you maybe talk to HUD and IBTS and the**  **22 SAAs and get feedback from them as to what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they're seeing out there in the way of fuel**  **2 mix and how many homes are converted to heat**  **3 pumps or how many homes go out with propane**  **4 and just get -- because you're going to get**  **5 anecdotal data from everyone and it gets a**  **6 broader group.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to make sure I**  **8 heard everybody right. We're going to update**  **9 the analysis with the 2011 micro data for**  **10 manufactured housing from the American Housing**  **11 Survey and then I'm going to supplement that**  **12 with any data that I can get about heat pump**  **13 water heater usage. Is that right?**  **14 MEMBER ROY: Heat pumps. And if**  **15 you can find something that addresses**  **16 Emanuel's sensible concern about the**  **17 difference between the overall stock of mobile**  **18 and manufactured homes and the difference**  **19 between that which is what American Housing**  **20 Survey probably is heading to and new sales.**  **21 That would be great.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: And also, I will** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 volunteer. I've been working the Northwest**  **2 Energy Efficiency Alliance, the Northeast**  **3 Energy Efficiency Alliance, the Midwest Energy**  **4 Efficiency Alliance, and the Southeast Energy**  **5 Efficiency Alliance. We've had conversations**  **6 about the need for this data. They run**  **7 utility programs, in many cases, incentivizing**  **8 heat pumps and they're going to provide some**  **9 data as well.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: How soon is that?**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: It's going to be**  **12 anecdotal data and I'm pursuing it right now.**  **13 We have data from the Northwest program to**  **14 provide for everyone.**  **15 The suggestion that Emanuel made**  **16 is a good one on the heating system by**  **17 location. I want to make sure that we also**  **18 get water heating distribution. My**  **19 understanding is that about 90 percent of all**  **20 HUD code homes regardless of if they have gas**  **21 heat, have electric water heaters. I'd like**  **22 to try to get some data to look at that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because if that's the case, this is a**  **2 significant energy use of the whole sector and**  **3 so it would behoove us not to -- if we're**  **4 going to get water heating as part of the**  **5 mission and we're still waiting for counsel on**  **6 that one, that would be important to have.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm leaving it up to**  **8 you all to self-monitor in the sense of we**  **9 want to make sure that we don't have paralysis**  **10 by over analysis, right? And so I don't know**  **11 what's relevant. So you guys are going to**  **12 have to self-monitor that. Is that fair**  **13 enough? Okay.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Are we finished with**  **15 this?**  **16 MR. BANTLE: Are we putting water**  **17 heater on?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Can you give us the**  **19 headline version of that?**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: Water heating**  **21 equipment --**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Microphone.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LUBLINER: Water heating**  **2 equipment by location and fuel type. Does**  **3 that work?**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: And you said that**  **5 you are working on some initial data on that?**  **6 MEMBER LUBLINER: No, I have data**  **7 on the distribution of the space heating**  **8 stuff. I don't know. The industry knows**  **9 better than I do if that 90 percent was**  **10 correct or even in the reasonable ballpark.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: So your last request**  **12 there who has --**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'm asking the**  **14 industry right now is 90 percent a reasonable**  **15 number to use or do we want to wait on that**  **16 and do that later? I don't have source of**  **17 that data other than what people in the**  **18 industry have told me. We've got the industry**  **19 here. They can decide to respond or not to**  **20 that.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny?**  **22 MR. SANTANA: Yes, Manny with** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Cavco. Without having any hard numbers, just**  **2 the floor plans that I've seen across our**  **3 plants which are spread across the country, I**  **4 would say 90 percent is not reasonable or not**  **5 accurate without -- I haven't seen anything to**  **6 indicate that. I see a lot of gas water**  **7 heaters. I don't know what percentage. I**  **8 can't even give you a ballpark. But 90, I**  **9 don't think is correct.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Is Mark Ezzo on the**  **11 phone?**  **12 MR. EZZO: Yes, I'm here. So the**  **13 question is what percent of homes are built**  **14 with gas versus electric water heaters?**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. I guess my**  **16 question is what percentage of overall homes**  **17 are built with electrical water heaters**  **18 regardless if they have gas space heating or**  **19 not?**  **20 MR. EZZO: I don't know that**  **21 number. It's very regional, as you guys know.**  **22 I mean out West, gas is a lot more prevalent** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 than it is in the South and the East. But **2 it's kind of hard to grab a number on that 3 unless we were to go and look at all our**  **4 plants and ask some questions. 5 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos --**  **6 MR. EZZO: Basically, the gas 7 water heaters, as you guys know, are more**  **8 expensive than electric, so lower end markets 9 see a lot more electric and in the higher-end**  **10 markets, we see more gas. So Mike, like in 11 your area, Northwest, there's a higher**  **12 percentage of gas water heaters than there is 13 in the Southeast.**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, that's 15 scary because our data suggests that 90**  **16 percent are electric even if there's a gas 17 furnace in the house, 90 percent of the water**  **18 heaters in -- even in the gas -- overall, is 19 electric. If you don't want to use the**  **20 Northwest as an example, if -- but again, I 21 can just provide what we have from the**  **22 Northwest, if you guys want to survey your**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 manufacturers or you want to talk to HUD or**  **2 SAA or IBTS, maybe they can provide some**  **3 concurrence or significant concern like Manny**  **4 raised about the number I threw out there.**  **5 MR. TOMPOS: I just want to -- I**  **6 don't think 90 is probably the number we**  **7 should use. And I don't have the numbers, but**  **8 we do a lot of on-site inspections on gas**  **9 water heaters. However, that's only when**  **10 they're going through the hinge portion of the**  **11 roof we're required to do an on-site**  **12 inspection. And I know we do a lot of them.**  **13 So I'm just throwing that out there. I can't**  **14 give you any hard numbers, but 90 doesn't feel**  **15 like a proper number for the entire country.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark, did you have**  **17 something?**  **18 No, okay.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman,**  **20 here. I think for this point, we'll put this**  **21 aside and hear from our -- we're not done with**  **22 it, but we're done with that portion and hear** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 from our general counsel who is answering a **2 specific question. 3 MR. BANTLE: Eileen, this is Ted.**  **4 Just one last thing. I believe that Eric had 5 a comment on the NAHB in a different set of**  **6 data from there that he wanted at the life 7 cycle?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: We don't have that 9 to put up because it's already been**  **10 distributed. It's an assignment that's been 11 done already.**  **12 MR. BANTLE: Okay, so we're good. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Right?**  **14 MR. BANTLE: Sounds good. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: We just wanted to**  **16 make sure we captured that, but that one was 17 -- he sent it this morning and I sent it out.**  **18 MR. BANTLE: Okay. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Ted, so now**  **20 we're going to hear from general counsel's 21 office. Will you introduce yourself?**  **22 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Yes, this is**

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### 1 just a point of clarification. I'm not the **2 General Counsel of DOE. I would love to be, 3 but I work in the Office of the General**  **4 Counsel. I'm just one of the attorneys, 5 Kavita Vaidyanathan, and I am Program Counsel**  **6 for Building Codes and for the Office of 7 Building Programs.**  **8 So the question came up whether 9 the National Appliance Efficiency and**  **10 Conservation Act preempted DOE from setting 11 efficiency standards for covered products**  **12 within manufactured homes. So in my 13 preliminary research and talking to some**  **14 folks, I haven't been able to connect with 15 everyone. I understand that the Act has been**  **16 applied to preempt authority to set higher 17 efficiency standards from the federal minimum**  **18 for states. And preemption is a specific 19 legal concept where the Federal Government**  **20 takes authority away from the states. So 21 preemption is not what we're talking about**  **22 here.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 From what I understand, we're**  **2 talking about setting efficiency standards for**  **3 a covered product different from what DOE sets**  **4 under the Energy Policy and Conservation Act,**  **5 based on the site of the product. The product**  **6 would be in a manufactured home versus other**  **7 applications that we set. For example, DOE is**  **8 currently doing a rulemaking on mobile homes**  **9 for furnaces.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Furnaces for**  **11 manufactured housing.**  **12 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Oh, for**  **13 manufactured housing. Okay, so if this group**  **14 were interested in setting different standards**  **15 than the one we're setting for that**  **16 rulemaking, that might be a problem because**  **17 that covered product is specifically set forth**  **18 in the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. It**  **19 seems counter productive. It doesn't seem**  **20 correct to do something different from another**  **21 rulemaking that we already are pursuing in a**  **22 different aspect.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But if we're talking about other**  **2 covered products as well, the question I guess**  **3 the General Counsel's Office has is what's the**  **4 rationale for having a different standard for**  **5 a covered product under a manufactured home?**  **6 Is it somehow -- is a covered product somehow**  **7 installed differently? Is it used differently**  **8 than it would be in other homes? Why we would**  **9 set a different standard than we do in other**  **10 rulemakings for a national standard that we**  **11 already set for those covered products? I**  **12 don't know. I mean this is a question for the**  **13 group.**  **14 We just want more information on**  **15 what the rationale DOE would give to set a**  **16 standard under the Energy Policy and**  **17 Conservation Act for covered products and then**  **18 say but, for manufactured homes, we have a**  **19 different standard that we're going to set.**  **20 And is it because -- I guess this is a**  **21 question for the manufacturers, do you -- for**  **22 the equipment and the appliances that you may** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 want to set, do you ship all that together**  **2 with the manufactured home or is it installed**  **3 later? I don't know the process. So is a**  **4 water heater shipped with the manufactured**  **5 home? Or is an ENERGY STAR appliance shipped**  **6 with the manufactured home and that's why you**  **7 would want to set those standards? And is it**  **8 installed differently in a manufactured home**  **9 than it would be in other settings? Because**  **10 in looking at our covered products under EPCA,**  **11 we don't look at, I guess, the site use of the**  **12 product. We set those standards without**  **13 looking at the site use of the product. We**  **14 don't see different standards for a 4,000**  **15 square foot home versus a 2,000 square foot**  **16 home. So these are questions for the group,**  **17 for us, to make a determination on whether**  **18 it's rationale to set those standards.**  **19 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss. I did**  **20 have a question on your reference to the**  **21 furnaces for manufactured homes. What stage**  **22 is that rulemaking in? Is that conventional** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or negotiated? Is that under ASRAC requests?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: I think I can**  **3 answer that, but I can look up for the**  **4 specifics, but I believe it just started and**  **5 it's usually about a two-year process. It's**  **6 not going through ASRAC as far as I know.**  **7 I've not heard that. It's a traditional**  **8 rulemaking.**  **9 MEMBER WEISS: Conventional.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. And I can get**  **11 you the docket and I'm sure somebody here can**  **12 point you to the docket where it would be**  **13 found. But it is an update. There's already**  **14 a standard for manufactured housing furnaces.**  **15 It's an update to that standard.**  **16 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. It's**  **17 only gas furnaces, I believe. It's from a**  **18 remanded efficiency standard. It was**  **19 something which was contested from a**  **20 rulemaking a few years ago. It only applies**  **21 to gas furnaces.**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: I can attempt to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maybe clarify what some questions would be or**  **2 narrow it down, at least the questions I would**  **3 have related to this. The preemption issue is**  **4 something that's come up many times in the**  **5 states and I think I have a general sense of**  **6 how that works. Two questions or maybe**  **7 subquestions here.**  **8 One is we know that states are**  **9 preempted from setting a higher efficiency**  **10 level than what's been established for a**  **11 covered product by the Federal Government. Is**  **12 this committee -- I wouldn't be preempted, but**  **13 would this committee be allowed to specify**  **14 something higher as a baseline requirement for**  **15 all manufactured homes. I think I'm hearing**  **16 from you the answer is no, but that's kind of**  **17 the first part of the question.**  **18 The second part of the question is**  **19 if the efficiency of a covered product is**  **20 going to be used in a compliance baseline or**  **21 in a set of building code requirements, are**  **22 there specific rules that apply? For example,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in NAECA, there's a whole set, I think there**  **2 are seven restrictions placed on states. If**  **3 they do include equipment efficiency in their**  **4 calculation of the overall efficiency of the**  **5 home, it was to meet seven criteria. It has**  **6 to be at the federal minimum or there has to**  **7 be at least one option that references the**  **8 federal minimum and so on. And I don't have**  **9 the reference in front of me, but I can get**  **10 that.**  **11 And so there's the whole set of**  **12 rules that apply to states that are using**  **13 equipment efficiencies in their calculations.**  **14 So I'd be interested to hear whether that set**  **15 of rules applies to DOE and HUD and more**  **16 specifically to this group. My personal**  **17 opinion is I don't think we want to go down**  **18 that path because I think it would make us**  **19 inconsistent with the IECC, but I think that's**  **20 the general -- I think those are the questions**  **21 that we were asking. I think that's maybe a**  **22 finer point on the questions. I hope that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 makes sense.**  **2 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I think it**  **3 does. On your first point, we're not saying**  **4 that you can't. I just think that we need**  **5 more information before we make that**  **6 determination. Preemption is not an issue**  **7 here, so it's not a question of NAECA stopping**  **8 us. It's looking at the Energy Policy**  **9 Conservation Act where we do set standards for**  **10 covered products and then determining what the**  **11 rationale would be under EPCA and the**  **12 rationale for the manufactured housing energy**  **13 efficiency standards we're setting, why we**  **14 would set different standards.**  **15 So it could be a possibility if we**  **16 can come up with the rationale. And I am**  **17 sorry, I'm not familiar with NAECA standards,**  **18 so I would have to look into whether those**  **19 standards would apply or if there are other**  **20 standards in setting, if the group is thinking**  **21 about setting standards what restrictions**  **22 would be.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But I think the overall question**  **2 is if we are going to set them, what's the**  **3 rationale for setting a different standard**  **4 first. And then if there is such a rationale,**  **5 are there are restrictions in setting those**  **6 standards? So I can do some research and**  **7 looking at if there are restrictions and if**  **8 the committee can give me some information on**  **9 why you would want to set a different standard**  **10 from what's already in the covered products.**  **11 If you can give me that information, because**  **12 I'm not quite sure on a technical basis what**  **13 the difference would be.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe**  **15 Hagerman. Let's just remember the context**  **16 here. So this was brought up yesterday**  **17 afternoon. The committee has gone back to**  **18 General Counsel to kind of discuss this and**  **19 really came back to the group to ask. You**  **20 know, we need more information to be honest**  **21 with you and this is a very tricky question,**  **22 right? We need more information from you guys** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to help us be able to answer what it is this**  **2 group could do or not do in its scope.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Michael**  **4 and Mark.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: So I want to**  **6 thank you for jumping right on this one. And**  **7 I totally understand this is a process that**  **8 needs information from a number of sources.**  **9 So to answer one of your**  **10 questions, I think the fundamental one is the**  **11 homes are shipped with water heaters by law.**  **12 I believe you can probably get a home to ship**  **13 without a water heater if you have a special**  **14 alteration, what is it an AC letter or**  **15 something. So it happens. Say I wanted to.**  **16 I'm a consumer. I go in and I want to buy a**  **17 tankless water heater instead of a tank water**  **18 heater. And I go to the retailer and they say**  **19 well, we don't necessarily offer that or yes,**  **20 we offer it, but it's very expensive because**  **21 we don't stock it. We don't have the buying**  **22 power. So I don't have a choice in many** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 cases.**  **2 One of the arguments is consumer**  **3 choice. The consumer should be able to buy a**  **4 manufactured home and be able to afford the**  **5 buying power that the industry has in**  **6 procuring energy efficient products that may**  **7 be in the consumer's best economic interest.**  **8 If I understand what drove the preemption to**  **9 begin with, my understanding and again, I'm**  **10 not a lawyer, was that it was looking at the**  **11 burden to the manufacturer of the product like**  **12 the refrigerator manufacturer and not having**  **13 states with different regulations in every**  **14 state so that they were being driven crazy.**  **15 Well, I don't think that that applies here at**  **16 all. This isn't going to have an impact on --**  **17 all it's going to mean for G.E. would be if it**  **18 was a refrigerator criteria, it would mean**  **19 they're going to stock more ENERGY STAR**  **20 refrigerators when they do a national sales**  **21 contract with any of these manufacturers.**  **22 My own personal experience was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 when I bought my home. I ended up -- it was**  **2 cheaper for me to go to Home Depot and get my**  **3 own refrigerator than it was to have the**  **4 manufacturer special order it and then mark it**  **5 up and then the retailer mark it up. So I**  **6 went back to the Consensus Committee and I**  **7 said this doesn't, as a consumer, represent**  **8 any consumers in saying the consumer is not**  **9 getting a choice because of the decisions in**  **10 the factory not to offer it.**  **11 So I look at the economics to the**  **12 consumer of purchasing an ENERGY STAR**  **13 refrigerator, given the cost at Home Depot, I**  **14 say God, this is a good economic choice. I**  **15 wish the manufacturer could get me a price**  **16 like that. And so that's kind of some**  **17 background on where we're going.**  **18 The heat pump water heaters is a**  **19 very important one. Let's just take the**  **20 example, heat pump water heater which G.E.**  **21 will sell right now for $500 wholesale to this**  **22 industry. And you can confirm that if you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 want from the suppliers, but if you would mark**  **2 that up to reasonable retail rates that could**  **3 be like a $1,500, $1,200 to $1,500 product to**  **4 the consumer. But that consumer, if you**  **5 believe the DOE and the G.E. advertising, is**  **6 going to save roughly $150 to $200 a year. So**  **7 he's going to realize that investment back,**  **8 but he can't get that product right now. And**  **9 it may be cost effective.**  **10 So what I'm asking is that we**  **11 analyze these to make sure we know where**  **12 they're at and we engage the manufacturers in**  **13 a discussion of what the costs would be if**  **14 they were procuring these products at the**  **15 volumes that they're procuring the non-ENERGY**  **16 STAR products. And so the specific ones that**  **17 I think are really most important would be the**  **18 appliances, the dryer and the laundry if it's**  **19 shipped with the home. It's typically not, so**  **20 maybe that's not a big issue. The**  **21 refrigerator which is often most always**  **22 shipped with the home and the dishwasher and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the exhaust fans in the homes.**  **2 And for the water heater, it would**  **3 be either -- if it was gas a tankless water**  **4 heater or a condensing water heater and if it**  **5 was electric it might be a heat pump water**  **6 heater or even a solar water heater, but**  **7 that's a little bit out. That's out on DOE's**  **8 2050 goals.**  **9 I apologize for that lengthy**  **10 background. I just thought it was appropriate**  **11 to kind of understand my perspective of what**  **12 was driving this to begin with.**  **13 MEMBER WEISS: A few questions and**  **14 I apologize for my lack of background, but**  **15 this NAECA law, when was it enacted, if you**  **16 know?**  **17 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: I actually**  **18 don't know and I apologize. I just started**  **19 researching this.**  **20 MEMBER WEISS: My question would**  **21 be assuming maybe it was before 2007, was it**  **22 before EISA or after? That's one question.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Yes.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: We're going to**  **3 Google it, but I'm pretty sure it was like 30**  **4 years ago.**  **5 MEMBER WEISS: Like I said, this**  **6 is the first I've ever heard of this. When**  **7 did the NAECA standards go into effect? Now**  **8 I assume that's over a period of time. What**  **9 was that period of time? And again, was it**  **10 before 2007? I assume at least a portion of**  **11 them were before 2007 if the law went into**  **12 effect 30 years ago, but you never know. Then**  **13 third, what's the definition of a quote**  **14 unquote covered product?**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Mark, this is Joe**  **16 Hagerman. So it all went into effect with the**  **17 National Appliance Energy Conservation Act and**  **18 that Act, I think, details a lot of the**  **19 questions that you're asking right here, so**  **20 maybe we could circulate that.**  **21 MEMBER WEISS: That would be**  **22 terrific, yes. I'm specifically looking for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that information.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: There's a great**  **3 Wikipedia article on it, too.**  **4 MEMBER WEISS: And then just one**  **5 further comment in response to what Mike said**  **6 and Mike and I have known each other a long**  **7 time. So I say this with all affection in my**  **8 heart, and that is that you live in a**  **9 manufactured home and I commend you for that.**  **10 You're to be commended. Our chairman at**  **11 MHARR, Chief Executive of one of the producers**  **12 lives in a manufactured home, John Bostick.**  **13 But the fact of the matter is that we're not**  **14 analyzing all this stuff or setting these**  **15 standards for you or for John because you're**  **16 not typical and I hate to use that word**  **17 because it might have a pejorative**  **18 connotation, but neither one of you is a**  **19 typical manufactured home owner. I mean we're**  **20 talking about folks with a median family**  **21 income of $27,000 plus. And as I said**  **22 yesterday, we can never lose sight of that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 fact.**  **2 So I appreciate your experience**  **3 and your input, but it's -- that's the fact of**  **4 the matter. You're not on the same level as**  **5 these other people and West things are much**  **6 different than I imagine them to be.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Mark, thank**  **8 you. Any more questions for -- okay.**  **9 MR. TOMPOS: I just wanted to**  **10 respond to Mike on the on-demand water**  **11 heaters. We have several manufacturers that**  **12 are offering that and do that without any**  **13 problems at all. So it comes down to a demand**  **14 thing, I think, with a lot of these**  **15 appliances. I know a lot of manufacturers**  **16 offer an ENERGY STAR package on the appliance.**  **17 I think I'm a proponent of giving the consumer**  **18 a choice. I don't think we should require**  **19 them to do it.**  **20 I also think if there's already**  **21 federal requirements or standards, why would**  **22 we -- we have way too much to do here. We** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 shouldn't waste our time trying to up a**  **2 standard that's already set. So just my**  **3 opinion. Maybe we can come back around to it**  **4 if we get everything done by the end of**  **5 September, but just my two cents.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: That was one of the**  **7 questions that I have for the group is that if**  **8 -- Kavita said that if the group is planning**  **9 on doing this, what's the rationale for the**  **10 change? So I guess that's the first question.**  **11 Is it something that the group is seriously**  **12 considering because that goes back to my --**  **13 perhaps my over analysis. You need to be**  **14 selective on which roads we're going to go**  **15 down, okay?**  **16 Let me get Robin and then Eric.**  **17 MEMBER ROY: Robin. I tend to**  **18 agree, but I think we'll provide, NRDC's**  **19 counsel will provide a short memo to you why**  **20 we see no problem with DOE promulgating a**  **21 standard that includes treatment of water**  **22 heaters and space heaters. I don't think** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we'll address the other appliances because**  **2 those are required to be shipped with the**  **3 product. We'll provide that to you.**  **4 I do see some reason for our**  **5 continued interest in it and you can see that**  **6 from the first cut of PNNL's spreadsheet where**  **7 they have both electric resistance and heat**  **8 pump, energy of facts. It's a large number.**  **9 The consumption in an electric resistance,**  **10 well, for space and water both. It's not all**  **11 there. The difference is very, very large.**  **12 I think it may be -- well, at the very least,**  **13 it may be something that we want to consider**  **14 when we think about grinding out some**  **15 additional costs on the shell measures. Is**  **16 there a lower cost, more attractive way to get**  **17 the same, more savings, out of some of these**  **18 heating measures? Just for consideration, not**  **19 that we would do it.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric and then Mark.**  **21 MEMBER LACEY: So I just wanted to**  **22 be clear. I don't think we have to resolve** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the issue for our purposes here for trying to**  **2 create a standard that we can recommend to DOE**  **3 that's going to give us -- that's going to**  **4 look something like the IECC. The IECC**  **5 doesn't include those trade-offs right now and**  **6 so it may be a non-issue.**  **7 I'd be happy to follow up with**  **8 Kavita and give some citations and maybe try**  **9 to further refine what the question is. But**  **10 I think for this group's purposes, this might**  **11 be one of those kind of parking lots issues**  **12 where in theory it would be great to be able**  **13 to acquire the right cost effective piece of**  **14 equipment for every circumstance. I think**  **15 Robin is speaking to it. There are ways we**  **16 can give incentives for that.**  **17 I think it's great to have**  **18 incentives. I don't think it's a good idea to**  **19 have incentives that would result in less**  **20 efficient buildings, the thermal envelopes,**  **21 for example. But I think some of these**  **22 issues, maybe we'll put it in the parking lot.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 They might be better captured in an above code**  **2 or ENERGY STAR or green program where you**  **3 don't have some of those same restrictions**  **4 that you have in a mandatory standard. That's**  **5 what I'm suggesting. Maybe put that into**  **6 another category altogether.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **8 MEMBER WEISS: Yes, Mark Weiss.**  **9 Even aside from the straight legal issue**  **10 though is the question of the advisability of**  **11 requiring a different standard specifically**  **12 for manufactured homes. There is additional**  **13 costs entailed in that no matter how you go,**  **14 even if the standard were lower, since you're**  **15 departing from what is by now the national**  **16 norm for the original equipment manufacturers,**  **17 their stuff. So even if you set the energy**  **18 criteria lower, you're still potentially**  **19 looking at a higher cost. So that would be my**  **20 problem with this, one of them.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: So what I'm hearing**  **22 is putting it in the parking lot as a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 possibility. We will get to it, but trying to**  **2 do some other things first. Is that -- but**  **3 also that Joe and Eric and Robin will all be**  **4 in touch with Kavita in terms of the**  **5 application of the law and some background as**  **6 well. Is that fair to say? And we will all**  **7 get copies of the Act, as well, reference**  **8 Mark's suggestion that he wanted to see the**  **9 relevant portions as well.**  **10 I think you have a question or**  **11 comment?**  **12 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, I just**  **13 wanted to wrap it up with a final observation.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: And since I was**  **16 a catalyst for this discussion, I went and**  **17 I've been on a federal advisory committee for**  **18 many years, a consensus committee, and I**  **19 represent the consumer. I made**  **20 recommendations to that committee many years**  **21 ago to require higher efficiencies for these**  **22 equipment. The committee decided that they** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 didn't want to address it because they thought**  **2 this group was going to address it. So my**  **3 goal was really just to clarify whether this**  **4 group is going to address it or not. My**  **5 personal preference is that this committee not**  **6 address it because we have other fish to fry.**  **7 We have more important things to do. But I**  **8 wanted clarification so now if it's that we're**  **9 going to parking lot it, it would be ideal for**  **10 HUD since I will now bring it back to the**  **11 Consensus Committee and say no, they didn't**  **12 address it. But it would be nice if DOE has**  **13 the resources to do the analysis of it because**  **14 HUD doesn't. So that's just a plug for the**  **15 parking lot. And I support the parking lot**  **16 with analysis. And maybe that's not a**  **17 priority for this ASRAC group.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Manny.**  **19 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **20 Yes, I'd just like to make the comment, you**  **21 know, references to what has happened at the**  **22 MACC have come up and I think we have enough** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to do in this group to not push other agendas.**  **2 And I would like to keep that in mind.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Kavita.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin has been**  **5 patient.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Robin, then**  **7 Kavita.**  **8 MEMBER ROY: I have to say I think**  **9 this is right in the agenda and we'll have to**  **10 explain. Part of what I want to do is explain**  **11 why if we don't address it, why we're not**  **12 addressing it. I mean space heating in many**  **13 parts of the country represents half of the**  **14 energy used in a manufactured home, if you use**  **15 electric resistance. And if you used a heat**  **16 pump, you'd be using only half or less of**  **17 that. Now that's a large fraction and we**  **18 will need to be coherent and clear as to why**  **19 we're not addressing it because it is not**  **20 precluded from our consideration under the**  **21 law, at least the understanding of our**  **22 counsel, but that's for you to determine.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So we'll have to explain why we**  **2 did not address a measure or a series of**  **3 measures that could have reduced the energy by**  **4 something like 30, 35 percent total for**  **5 electric resistance, water and space heated**  **6 homes. Not to say that we should do it. I**  **7 take the point. There are all kinds of issues**  **8 with it, but we have to clear as to why we're**  **9 not doing it and understand what we are not**  **10 doing.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe**  **12 Hagerman, DOE. I sort of appreciate that**  **13 sentiment and I anticipate that the Secretary,**  **14 before he signed off on a final rule, would**  **15 want us to be able to articulate that either**  **16 way. I think the group has to address it.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, and just --**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't want to**  **19 necessarily think it's in a parking lot. We**  **20 have a lot to do as Manny keeps on pointing**  **21 out to get this term sheet written. Please**  **22 give us whatever information you can about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this. We'll circulate the NAECA statute and**  **2 give us your comments. Whatever we can do,**  **3 but that should be kind of a little bit side**  **4 project for us.**  **5 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Yes, and I just**  **6 want to say because I'm not a member of the**  **7 committee, I'm happy to do the work that you**  **8 don't have time to do. So I can look into the**  **9 issue. I'm happy to get the information that**  **10 you all have and look into it and see what we**  **11 can do from a DOE perspective and come back to**  **12 you with the information.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Great, thank you.**  **14 Before we end, before our lunch break, Keith**  **15 Dennis, who has been on the phone wanted me to**  **16 read his comments and they're somewhat close**  **17 to this discussion.**  **18 He says, "From NRECA, we estimate**  **19 that more than half the people served by**  **20 cooperatives have no access to natural gas and**  **21 suspect that is why electric is so prevalent**  **22 for water heating." That's his point.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And I think if he wanted to make**  **2 any more comments, he could be unmuted for a**  **3 moment.**  **4 MR. DENNIS: That's good. That**  **5 captures my point. We just find that a lot of**  **6 our -- don't have access to that.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **8 Now it's close to noon. What I'd like to do**  **9 if my co-facilitators agree, you noticed our**  **10 choreography is seamless. We had no**  **11 rehearsals either. We'd like to have a one**  **12 hour break. Come back at one o'clock and**  **13 we've got a number of things to deal with**  **14 including a presentation from Eric Lacey on**  **15 compliance and from Michael Lubliner as well.**  **16 And all of you, thank you.**  **17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **18 matter went off the record at 12:03 p.m. and**  **19 resumed at 1:13 p.m.)**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: I hope you had a**  **21 good lunch break. We're back on the record**  **22 and back ready to work. And in terms of our** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 agenda, we're now going to ask Eric Lacey to**  **2 talk about multiple compliance options for us**  **3 to consider.**  **4 Thank you, Eric.**  **5 MEMBER LACEY: All right.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe**  **7 Hagerman. Before you start, I think this has**  **8 come up before in the previous discussion**  **9 multiple times. And so the previous**  **10 conversation is going to advance the**  **11 discussion a little bit, but Eric, before the**  **12 start of the day, wanted to present some ideas**  **13 on multiple compliant options and he's come up**  **14 with this brief document for us to kind of**  **15 discuss.**  **16 MEMBER LACEY: And my idea here is**  **17 not right now to set the specific R-values or**  **18 U-factors or SHGC, but to think about a**  **19 possible framework for what some options might**  **20 look like.**  **21 Right now there's basically one**  **22 option in the HUD code for a meeting, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 then, you know, the Uo, and we may continue**  **2 and have that as one of the options.**  **3 But based on what I've heard about**  **4 the use of REScheck for modular homes and, you**  **5 know, looking at the prescriptive path and**  **6 having conversations internally here, I**  **7 thought, well, starting with the different**  **8 options there are currently in the 2015 IECC,**  **9 would it make sense to adopt some of those**  **10 into the manufactured housing standard, and if**  **11 so, which of the options? All of them or a**  **12 couple of them that might be useful or well**  **13 understood already.**  **14 So I put together kind of a**  **15 strawman proposal with three options in here,**  **16 and I'm interested in your feedback as to**  **17 whether you think these things would be**  **18 feasible.**  **19 And, you know, I think Michael's**  **20 going to suggest what some possible values**  **21 might be for the first option. I'm not going**  **22 to get into that yet. There will be a good** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 discussion on that later.**  **2 But this is to kind of outline**  **3 where I would see this, you know, where I**  **4 think we could go back to DOE with something**  **5 that looks like the 2015 IECC in many**  **6 respects, but that would allow a lot of**  **7 flexibility and maybe, you know, incorporate**  **8 some new ideas.**  **9 So three compliance options. The**  **10 first might be a prescriptive path. Now the**  **11 prescriptive path wouldn't have to be perfect**  **12 for every scenario. It wouldn't have to be,**  **13 the lowest common denominator is something**  **14 that any design could meet, but maybe a**  **15 sensible list of requirements that a**  **16 reasonably efficient manufactured home could**  **17 meet.**  **18 You know, it may not consider the**  **19 case of a cathedral ceiling or, you know, any**  **20 other conditions that you might come up with,**  **21 but it would be just kind of an average,**  **22 relatively efficient unit.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And so it would have, I'm assuming**  **2 it would have like an R-value table or a U**  **3 factor table or both just so that you have a**  **4 set list of requirements that you could**  **5 follow, and similar to what the IECC has for**  **6 its prescriptive options.**  **7 Now the IECC has a number of other**  **8 specific requirements beyond just a U-factor**  **9 requirement, and so I've tried to list the key**  **10 requirements up here. We wouldn't have to**  **11 keep all of these.**  **12 I would suggest keeping as many as**  **13 you can to make this, again, more like the**  **14 IECC and because some of these are pretty**  **15 important backstops when you start trading**  **16 things off.**  **17 But beyond just having an R-value**  **18 or a U-factor table or both, you'd have some**  **19 specific requirements and some exceptions that**  **20 are built into these for the thermal envelope**  **21 requirements, the systems and lighting, unless**  **22 the group here decides, look, this just** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 doesn't apply.**  **2 There's a provision for pool**  **3 covers in the 2015 IECC. Maybe assuming pool**  **4 covers is not something that's really**  **5 necessary in here. It's a mandatory**  **6 provision. You know, maybe we drop that out**  **7 because it just doesn't even apply, I would**  **8 assume, in most cases.**  **9 Snow melt systems for the**  **10 driveway. That's another one that's, you**  **11 know, it would be nice to have but it's hard**  **12 to require that in every case in a**  **13 manufactured home.**  **14 And so that's the sort of**  **15 analysis, and we don't need to go through all**  **16 those things right now, but I tried to list**  **17 what I think and under the mandatory sections**  **18 what I think are the things that are currently**  **19 mandatory under all the compliance options of**  **20 the IECC that I think would still apply in**  **21 some form or another for manufactured housing.**  **22 You might change some of those.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 You might tweak them a little bit. But, you**  **2 know, in order to go back to DOE with**  **3 something that's roughly equivalent or within**  **4 range of the 2015 IECC, these seem to be the**  **5 sections I think you'd want to include. So**  **6 that would be the prescriptive path.**  **7 (Off the record comments)**  **8 MEMBER LACEY: That's Option 1.**  **9 And I'd be interested to hear, maybe after I**  **10 go through these, how useful you think any of**  **11 these things would be. If you think you would**  **12 never use a prescriptive path maybe we don't**  **13 have one in there.**  **14 One reason why you might have one**  **15 on there, I'll give you two reasons to have a**  **16 prescriptive baseline in there. One is to set**  **17 the baseline for the other options.**  **18 That's the way the IECC is set up,**  **19 is you have kind of a prescriptive baseline**  **20 and the performance path and the UA and**  **21 everything is built on top of that single**  **22 baseline. So you kind of know what the base** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 characteristics are and when you start doing**  **2 tradeoffs everybody understands the rules.**  **3 Another reason to do this is to**  **4 allow product manufacturers to have a target**  **5 to try to aim for. If they understand that**  **6 the baseline home is supposed to be insulated**  **7 at about this level or have windows that are**  **8 about this efficient, it helps them kind of**  **9 fine-tune their offerings, their product**  **10 offerings.**  **11 And it would help, you know, I**  **12 think it would help spur innovation. You**  **13 know, if everybody saw that this is the attic**  **14 insulation requirement you might have more**  **15 suppliers out there saying well, look, we can**  **16 offer that too.**  **17 We can offer something that meets**  **18 that requirement, or better than that**  **19 requirement, and you can trade it off, you**  **20 know, elsewhere in the house. So that would**  **21 be another good reason to have just a base set**  **22 of requirements even if you aren't building a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 lot of homes to that base.**  **2 The next one would be a total UA,**  **3 or I'm calling it a REScheck option. And**  **4 we've talked about this before. Basically you**  **5 would have a baseline home that would be based**  **6 on the R-value/U-factor tables and then you**  **7 would have your proposed home.**  **8 And you would perform a**  **9 calculation to make sure you're getting**  **10 roughly the same level of efficiency in your**  **11 proposed home. It's a very simplified version**  **12 of a performance path and it's the same thing**  **13 that REScheck uses.**  **14 Now I'd point out that REScheck to**  **15 my knowledge doesn't currently have a**  **16 manufactured housing setting. It has a number**  **17 of different codes, and when I go into**  **18 REScheck and plug in a home I can key it to**  **19 the 2006, 2009, 2012 version of the IECC, and**  **20 I'd presume sometime soon the 2015 version.**  **21 It also has some state-specific**  **22 versions of the code. North Carolina version,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a Washington, a Utah version, for a handful of**  **2 states that have changes.**  **3 And so, you know, as part of this**  **4 recommendation, if we decided to go down this**  **5 path maybe we'd recommend to DOE that we're**  **6 adopting a UA path and we recommend creating**  **7 a manufactured home-specific version of**  **8 REScheck so that you could use it.**  **9 And I would appreciate your**  **10 feedback. If you think the current REScheck**  **11 works, great. We don't need to be concerned**  **12 about this. But if we change the baseline,**  **13 you know, and want to keep it consistent with**  **14 our baseline, whatever that baseline is, maybe**  **15 we include that as one of our recommendations.**  **16 And I'd point out that even in the**  **17 UA approach in the IECC, you're still required**  **18 to meet certain mandatory sections and there**  **19 are still some exceptions and exclusions that**  **20 apply.**  **21 And I've tried to list the key**  **22 sections in here and I'm not promising to hit** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 all of them, but again it's just a strawman**  **2 and as we go forward. If you wanted to go**  **3 down this path, we could take a very careful**  **4 look at them and decide which of the sections**  **5 did or didn't apply.**  **6 So that's the second path. And**  **7 then the third path is the one that I think**  **8 we've been talking about the most.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric, could I just**  **10 ask you a question?**  **11 MEMBER LACEY: Yes.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're saying**  **13 that it's not a guarantee that you'd hit all**  **14 the sections, but did you expect to do a**  **15 pretty thorough combing in here? I mean is it**  **16 more of hey, I just did a broad overview or I**  **17 went through it but I might have missed**  **18 something? In other words is it an attempt to**  **19 be all-inclusive, an attempt?**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: Okay, so here's how**  **21 I'd answer that. I have two bullet points**  **22 under each of these. The first bullet point,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these are the other sections that apply.**  **2 You have Section 402 deals with**  **3 the thermal envelope. 403 is the systems, the**  **4 duct systems and heating and cooling systems.**  **5 404 is lighting. Those are the requirements.**  **6 I mean there are some that are in other**  **7 chapters of the code, but those are kind of**  **8 the core requirements.**  **9 And built, you know, inside each**  **10 of these sections there are a lot of**  **11 subsections, you know, how to properly install**  **12 insulation and, you know, what the air barrier**  **13 should look like and so on. And we would have**  **14 to go through each of those in finer detail.**  **15 The mandatory sections, this is**  **16 not a complete list of all mandatory sections.**  **17 These are the mandatory sections that I**  **18 thought probably applied to manufactured**  **19 homes.**  **20 I tried to be a little more**  **21 specific here. There were a couple, like I**  **22 mentioned snow melt systems, I don't think** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really applies so I just eliminated that one.**  **2 As far as I could, you know, come up with this**  **3 morning, this was kind of the key list of**  **4 mandatory sections. And this is negotiable,**  **5 you know, if you think that something is not**  **6 feasible or not sensible then one could be**  **7 knocked out or changed.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you.**  **9 MEMBER LACEY: Is that a -- all**  **10 right.**  **11 MEMBER TOMPOS: I'm sorry. Dave**  **12 Tompos. Were the mandatory sections under**  **13 your prescriptive the same as under the UA?**  **14 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, they are. Oh,**  **15 go ahead.**  **16 MEMBER TOMPOS: No, no, no. And I**  **17 guess I'm getting ahead of you, but are they**  **18 the same in the other options as well?**  **19 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. In the IECC**  **20 the mandatory provisions apply across all the**  **21 paths.**  **22 MEMBER TOMPOS: Okay.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LACEY: And, you know, they**  **2 decided that there were certain things,**  **3 certain backstops that just had to apply. And**  **4 I'm going to recommend applying them to the Uo**  **5 path as well just in the name of consistency**  **6 with IECC approach.**  **7 So again the Uo we've been talking**  **8 about is trying to find that optimal, cost**  **9 effective, you know, reasonable approach to**  **10 getting that magic number. And I think that's**  **11 useful, and largely because it's, I think, the**  **12 path that most people in here are familiar**  **13 with for achieving compliance with the energy**  **14 standard.**  **15 You know, there are other**  **16 requirements that would apply. I added SHGC**  **17 in there because I don't think it's in the**  **18 current standard, and then there's the other**  **19 list of, you know, specific requirements and**  **20 mandatory sections.**  **21 In the IECC, the mandatory**  **22 provisions apply whether you're using** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 performance, UA or prescriptive or even in the**  **2 ERI path, the new path. And so I would**  **3 recommend that we carry that forward into**  **4 whatever we come up with here, but that's an**  **5 issue we can discuss later.**  **6 If you think there's something in**  **7 the mandatory provisions that you just cannot**  **8 do in a Uo of a performance path then, you**  **9 know, we can talk about that. But I tried to**  **10 list them here just for the sake of being**  **11 complete.**  **12 There are a couple of other, there**  **13 are questions specific to the Uo? Okay. A**  **14 couple of other considerations that I jotted**  **15 down here, and this is again not a complete**  **16 list but things that I kind of thought of this**  **17 morning.**  **18 One is, and I mentioned that, you**  **19 know, if we decide to go down a UA or REScheck**  **20 approach maybe part of our recommendation is**  **21 DOE would like you to take a look at creating**  **22 a specific REScheck option for this.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The other one is the ERI option,**  **2 the energy rating index. I mentioned in my**  **3 presentation yesterday that the 2015 IECC**  **4 incorporates basically a HERS alternative to**  **5 the code, a home energy rating score**  **6 alternative.**  **7 And just in informal discussions**  **8 here, I gathered that HERS is not something**  **9 that's often used for manufactured housing and**  **10 I'm not sure it's even appropriate. I like**  **11 the idea of having another option out there,**  **12 but it might take another iteration of HERS or**  **13 some communication with them to come up with**  **14 something that did work. I left it off the**  **15 options for now.**  **16 You know, I put three forward that**  **17 based on what I've heard are kind of common**  **18 approaches that I thought would be useful. If**  **19 you want to discuss the ERI option further we**  **20 can.**  **21 One thought I had is, you know,**  **22 maybe we set three options for the standard** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that comes out of this group. We could**  **2 suggest to DOE or later to Energy Star that,**  **3 you know, maybe there can be an energy rating**  **4 index option for Energy Star or for green**  **5 building programs or things that go beyond**  **6 this, where you capture some of the things**  **7 like improved equipment efficiency and**  **8 improved appliances and other things that you**  **9 really can't capture in the base code but that**  **10 you might capture in an above code program**  **11 without running afoul of any potential, you**  **12 know, federal minimum standard issues.**  **13 So anyway those are a couple of**  **14 thoughts I had about this. But again the idea**  **15 that I have is, you know, I think if we try to**  **16 focus on getting to a single right answer for**  **17 all units we could get bogged down in the**  **18 details and the discussion over the cost**  **19 effectiveness of various specific measures.**  **20 But if we want to get to some kind**  **21 of consensus that people could live with,**  **22 having a couple more options in there that are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 roughly equivalent, I think, would be a thing**  **2 to do. At least that's how we can get through**  **3 things in the ICC process.**  **4 You know, if you're not happy with**  **5 something that goes into base code or in the**  **6 prescriptive path you have a performance**  **7 option too. If I want to have a cathedral**  **8 ceiling for all the attic space, I can't do**  **9 the prescriptive but I can do the UA or I can**  **10 do a performance path.**  **11 But anyway this is the strawman,**  **12 these three options. So I'd appreciate any**  **13 feedback or any thoughts.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny? I'm sorry,**  **15 Emanuel.**  **16 MEMBER LEVY: Well, I can't see**  **17 the argument against keeping all these on the**  **18 table, particularly since we don't know where**  **19 we're going to get with what's in the standard**  **20 and some of these formats may be more**  **21 appropriate than others.**  **22 I want to pick up on couple of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 things. You said a little bit about**  **2 performance path but it's not really up here,**  **3 and there's a part of this which is kind of**  **4 coming at this with a site-built hat on as**  **5 opposed to thinking about it from what the**  **6 opportunities might be from a factory-built**  **7 standpoint.**  **8 And what I mean by that is you**  **9 have 160 or 140-some builders in this country**  **10 who build all the homes. It's a very small**  **11 group, fairly sophisticated companies who are**  **12 capable of doing things that site-builders**  **13 can't simply because there are thousands, tens**  **14 of thousands of site-builders.**  **15 So what might be appropriate for**  **16 the factory-building arena, which we're not**  **17 even talking about now, may be different than**  **18 what's appropriate for manufactured housing.**  **19 And you've kind of touched on**  **20 this, Eric, about some of the opportunities**  **21 that might be out there if we went down a**  **22 different path. And what I'm thinking about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 here specifically, and we've talked about this**  **2 within the Research Alliance about the**  **3 opportunities here. A real performance path**  **4 that's simulation based which might pull into**  **5 it a lot of other things that provide value,**  **6 like you use this tool to comply but you also**  **7 use it to demonstrate your compliance with**  **8 Energy Star and do other things that might be**  **9 valuable to your business.**  **10 So there might be another path**  **11 here which, just call it, for lack of a better**  **12 term, a simulation based performance**  **13 compliance that might be a more robust and**  **14 provide even other opportunities beyond those**  **15 described in the options you have here but**  **16 might be consistent with this.**  **17 So I just wanted to throw that on**  **18 the table because I'm sure we're going to come**  **19 back to this.**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: Yes. And I'd**  **21 certainly be open to that. I think the reason**  **22 why I started with these three is because** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they're kind of known quantities, and people**  **2 tended, as I heard, people were familiar with**  **3 the UA calculation and with REScheck, and so**  **4 it seemed like it would be a pretty seamless**  **5 thing even if you had to change the baseline**  **6 to continue using that sort of approach or**  **7 that program.**  **8 Did you have a specific**  **9 performance path in mind? Are you talking**  **10 about the performance path that's built into**  **11 the IECC? Are you talking about HERS? Or do**  **12 you have a specific model that we could look**  **13 at to, you know, kind of evaluate?**  **14 MEMBER LEVY: Well, conceptually,**  **15 we went to an IECC, and what's called a**  **16 performance path is a number of rules about**  **17 how to do performance but it's not an actual**  **18 tool. REScheck is an actual tool and it's**  **19 closer to what I'm trying to get at here.**  **20 REScheck is not quite as robust as**  **21 what it could be, but that's the kind of**  **22 thinking that I think is the direction we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ought to be and are heading in or at least**  **2 talking about.**  **3 So IECC has a bunch of rules if**  **4 you want to do a performance path. I think we**  **5 could be much more defined about what the**  **6 performance path is. It may be even created,**  **7 as a result of this activity create a piece of**  **8 software that all the companies use and do**  **9 these things and more.**  **10 MEMBER LACEY: Okay. All right,**  **11 are there other thoughts? Questions about**  **12 this?**  **13 Manny?**  **14 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **15 I like the framework. I'm okay with doing the**  **16 prescriptive path and then the other two**  **17 performance paths. I don't have a problem**  **18 with that at all.**  **19 I just think as we continue we**  **20 want to focus more on what parts of the**  **21 mandatory sections, not just what sections**  **22 apply and which ones obviously don't apply,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 but also what parts of the mandatory sections**  **2 are useful and apply to manufactured housing.**  **3 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, absolutely.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: And so this is Joe**  **5 Hagerman. I totally agree with you. It would**  **6 be nice to have like a subcommittee to start**  **7 going through those sections and say this one**  **8 does apply and this one doesn't, right, and**  **9 here's why. Else we're going to be kind of**  **10 spinning our wheels.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: And Manny, I have a**  **12 feeling you haven't headed up a subcommittee.**  **13 MEMBER SANTANA: I knew I was**  **14 getting baited.**  **15 MEMBER LACEY: Does anyone else**  **16 want to speak?**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Is that something**  **18 you could tackle?**  **19 MEMBER SANTANA: Yes. Yes, I**  **20 think so.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.**  **22 MEMBER EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Manny, I'll help you with that.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Who's speaking? Oh,**  **3 Mark Ezzo, thank you.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean if the**  **5 manufacturers could do that and then wherever**  **6 possible if you said, I mean you have, you**  **7 know, you're a smart guy. If you axe out a**  **8 section that you don't think applies but you**  **9 know somebody else in the room, I'm not**  **10 calling out names, but like Luby might**  **11 disagree with you, right, you might want to**  **12 write that down why it does or doesn't apply,**  **13 right.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so would it**  **15 make sense to put someone like Luby on that**  **16 committee?**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but we'll give**  **18 a deadline.**  **19 MEMBER LACEY: And I could**  **20 volunteer as well. I mean I'm familiar with**  **21 how the IECC works but not so familiar with**  **22 how manufactured design works.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: So Manny, Mark Ezzo,**  **2 Luby and Eric. Okay. If anyone else wants to**  **3 join --**  **4 MEMBER KESSLER: This is Bert.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Bert?**  **6 MEMBER KESSLER: Bert at Palm**  **7 Harbor. Count me in.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Bert.**  **9 MEMBER KESSLER: And Eric, can I**  **10 ask you a quick question here?**  **11 MEMBER LACEY: Sure.**  **12 MEMBER KESSLER: When we're**  **13 talking about prescriptive path, aren't we**  **14 assuming that whatever we're putting in a**  **15 cavity will actually work? For instance, if**  **16 I put in R-19 in a wall, in a 2x6 wall, I**  **17 don't think REScheck right now considers that**  **18 as it relates to compression.**  **19 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, you raise a**  **20 good point. And I'm sorry, I think you raised**  **21 this yesterday and I never circled back with**  **22 an answer.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The prescriptive table in the**  **2 IECC, I think it's footnote A of the**  **3 prescriptive table, actually says that if you**  **4 are compressing the insulation you have to use**  **5 the compressed value not the nominal value of**  **6 the insulation.**  **7 And that's one of these things,**  **8 there are two bullet points under each of**  **9 these paths. The first bullet point says you**  **10 need to meet these other requirements, these**  **11 specifics, and I think that's the sort of**  **12 thing that would be in there.**  **13 It's not just meeting a nominal**  **14 R-value. There are specific insulation and**  **15 installation requirements that are in there.**  **16 And again we could go through these and decide**  **17 what applies and what doesn't.**  **18 But that might be a good one, you**  **19 know, to say that if you're installing**  **20 insulation that it's not just the nominal R**  **21 value but the, you know, if it is compressed**  **22 then you have to use the actual compressed** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 value. Does that answer your question?**  **2 MEMBER KESSLER: Yes. I just**  **3 wanted to point out if that's the case then**  **4 for a floor assembly, as an example, we really**  **5 couldn't use a prescriptive path like it was**  **6 suggested, I think Luby did, because we're not**  **7 going to be anywhere near what that U would be**  **8 if we had actual R-values that could be**  **9 installed.**  **10 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, and I'm not**  **11 proposing any specific values here. You know,**  **12 I think I say starting with the 2015 IECC**  **13 specifications, but if it's going to be**  **14 impossible in the floor it's going to be**  **15 impossible. Or if it's going to be cost**  **16 prohibitive we need to consider that.**  **17 And so I think Luby, later, is**  **18 going to walk us through one possibility and,**  **19 you know, it may be that it matches most**  **20 construction types. But if it doesn't then,**  **21 you know, we need to find one that does. But**  **22 yes, that's a point well taken.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Mark?**  **2 MEMBER WEISS: Yes, Eileen, if you**  **3 would just add me to Manny's group.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **5 (Off microphone comments)**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Membership closed.**  **7 MEMBER WEISS: I don't want them**  **8 to feel lonely.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we've got a**  **10 good group, thank you.**  **11 MEMBER EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo.**  **12 I just want to go back to what Eric was**  **13 offering up on those different performance**  **14 paths. And I fully support having**  **15 prescriptive, a REScheck manufactured housing**  **16 version and the Uo path. I think it's great**  **17 to have all three of those options.**  **18 I really am intrigued by the**  **19 prescriptive approach because I think it will**  **20 really simplify things for manufacturers,**  **21 retailers, everybody else involved. So I'm**  **22 really interested in hearing what Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner has to say in terms of a**  **2 recommendation for a prescriptive approach.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that our**  **4 transition? Is this all that we need to**  **5 discuss on this and then we go to Lubliner's**  **6 strawman?**  **7 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter**  **8 Schneider. Just one other note with regards**  **9 to, you know, a HERS index. You know, as our**  **10 appraisal industry is moving to recognizing**  **11 energy efficiency upgrades, they are going to**  **12 be utilizing the HERS index which is already**  **13 included in a number of states' MLS listings.**  **14 And so I think it would behoove**  **15 the manufactured housing industry to begin**  **16 moving in that direction so their houses can**  **17 be evaluated in an apples to apples comparison**  **18 with stick-built housing that has HERS**  **19 indexes.**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: I can maybe speak**  **21 to that. This is Eric. I agree that, you**  **22 know, in the future I think that might be a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 good target.**  **2 There are some challenges with the**  **3 current HERS method. For example, there are**  **4 penalties for having a smaller sized building**  **5 and you get a break for getting a larger sized**  **6 building.**  **7 There are a number of reasons why**  **8 and I'm not sure I agree with all of them, but**  **9 that seems like there are some unintended**  **10 consequences there that might apply to a**  **11 smaller building like a manufactured home.**  **12 I'd very much like for the HERS**  **13 index or an energy rating index to work. I'm**  **14 not sure we're quite there yet. And that's**  **15 why I suggested that you tee it up as a**  **16 potential issue for either the next iteration**  **17 here or possibly for Energy Star or above code**  **18 sorts of programs. That it may take a little**  **19 more work, you know, with RESNET or with BPI**  **20 or somebody else to come up with the right**  **21 index standard for manufactured housing, but**  **22 I'm not sure that we're there yet.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 If there's anyone in here or a**  **2 manufacturer that's using this, I'd love to**  **3 hear from you because I'm interested in how**  **4 this is applied to manufactured housing.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Sounds like no**  **6 takers on that.**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: So I could speak**  **8 a little bit to the RESNET. I'm on the RESNET**  **9 technical committee and the guy who works for**  **10 me is the vice president of the board.**  **11 And we've talked with Steve Baden**  **12 and the RESNET board about this initiative**  **13 going on right now in the ASRAC, and I think**  **14 that down the road they would be very**  **15 interested in addressing the needs of labeling**  **16 for consumers and for even contractors and**  **17 looking at the HUD certificate and trying to**  **18 come up with a system that it would be**  **19 legitimately recognized by the lenders that**  **20 are recognizing the existing rating for site**  **21 built.**  **22 But I do agree that that's farther** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 down the road and we have a lot of other more**  **2 important fish to fry right here with the**  **3 minimum.**  **4 And I like Emanuel's idea of**  **5 trying to not have two separate systems for**  **6 the voluntary program and the mandatory, if**  **7 you could allow that to be one tool. And if**  **8 that's a simulation tool REScheck would have**  **9 we can talk about that.**  **10 I had one comment on if you scroll**  **11 up where you reference the ASHRAE handbook, I**  **12 believe. Anyway I just wanted to point out**  **13 that we should probably include the ASHRAE,**  **14 and we should probably include the work that**  **15 PNNL's done that's published by HUD on how to**  **16 do the U-value calculations in accordance to**  **17 the procedures you guys use and include that**  **18 as a reference there as well.**  **19 MEMBER LACEY: Okay, yes. Just**  **20 for clarity, I just pulled this language out**  **21 of the IECC, and so yes, that's something we**  **22 could certainly tweak and make it very** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 specific.**  **2 I just put that up there as,**  **3 because I did such a poor job of explaining**  **4 the UA yesterday, I just took their language.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Now do we have**  **6 copies of this?**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I will send it**  **8 out.**  **9 MEMBER LACEY: Okay.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: And do you want to**  **11 incorporate Luby's suggestion to include the**  **12 PNNL there?**  **13 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, we can. I'm**  **14 not sure how to word that but --**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Just put in**  **16 right after Handbook of Fundamentals and/or**  **17 PNNL. What's the title of that? U-values for**  **18 manufactured housing. We'll get you the right**  **19 --**  **20 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, we can work**  **21 that out later. Okay.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: Anyway.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LACEY: Understood.**  **2 MEMBER LUBLINER: Just put a PNNL**  **3 play soldier there right now.**  **4 MEMBER LACEY: Okay.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: It's Conner, I**  **6 believe, is the author. Conner and Lucas.**  **7 MEMBER LACEY: All right. Any**  **8 more questions?**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: So any other**  **10 questions for Eric? Thank you.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, I want to get**  **13 Michael set up, up here.**  **14 (Off the record comments)**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: So thanks**  **16 everyone. I don't know that we'll need the**  **17 full hour, but I'm going to try to go through**  **18 just this kind of concept, and don't shoot the**  **19 messenger.**  **20 It all revolves around something a**  **21 guy named Milt Miner from Fleetwood Homes told**  **22 me when I first started working in this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 industry, and that's Murphy shows up on**  **2 special orders, and that standardization has**  **3 made this industry what it is.**  **4 And we learned a lot from that as**  **5 we developed our $100 million partnership**  **6 between the utilities that wanted to do energy**  **7 conservation and an industry that needed**  **8 resources to help the buyers.**  **9 So I'm approaching this with a**  **10 keep it simple approach here. And what I've**  **11 tried to do is think, after having a few years**  **12 in this industry and dealing with issues is**  **13 what's kind of, what are the measures that**  **14 make sense throughout the country in terms of**  **15 lost opportunities?**  **16 So we just spent about, the**  **17 utilities in the Northwest were spending and**  **18 the Department of Energy weatherization**  **19 programs are spending about $8,000 to $12,000**  **20 a house, a HUD code home, to weatherize them**  **21 after the fact. And it just seems like if we**  **22 had some of that money to put in up front we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would avoid the lost opportunities.**  **2 And so where are those lost**  **3 opportunities? Well, one of the things that's**  **4 been real expensive is adding insulation to**  **5 the belly. And again what I'm hoping to do**  **6 here is just throw out this.**  **7 I'm not claiming this is, quote,**  **8 cost effective to everybody in every sale and**  **9 every fuel type and everything, but just**  **10 throwing out the concept here.**  **11 So I've broken it out and this**  **12 gets back to Mark Ezzo's comment and Bert's**  **13 comment. When I say nominal R-value it's kind**  **14 of the way we do it in the Northwest. We say**  **15 nominal R-value, it is what it is.**  **16 If it's compressed it still has a**  **17 nominal R-value and we'll accommodate the**  **18 compression one way or another. We'll either**  **19 make an exemption of it or consider it in the**  **20 overall calculation. So that's a really**  **21 important point.**  **22 So what I was thinking is, is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that, really, the belly, the insulation in the**  **2 floor is something that's really hard to add**  **3 after the fact down the road.**  **4 And warm floors are nice. There's**  **5 a lot of thermal distributions systems in the**  **6 floor. There's probably some energy savings**  **7 from adding insulation there to the thermal**  **8 distribution system that's icing on the cake**  **9 and isn't counted in the modeling.**  **10 So what I'm suggesting is that we**  **11 stay with the R-30 in the belly and just add**  **12 a high density R-21 to the joist space. And**  **13 that's across the board in any climate zone.**  **14 My feeling is is that we're**  **15 probably talking in terms of cost, the**  **16 additional material and labor cost,**  **17 associated, let's say, in zone 1 with adding**  **18 the R-21, and that's the rules of thumbs that**  **19 I've been using for over the years are a penny**  **20 per R per square foot.**  **21 And we should probably go to see**  **22 if that rule of thumb is something you and I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 jive on or how far off we are if that's an**  **2 acceptable metric. But anyway so that's the**  **3 floor. So regardless of the climate zone, you**  **4 put a blanket in and you add 21 in the joists.**  **5 And the 21 can be added in any 2x6**  **6 joist without any compression. There will be**  **7 some compression of the R-11 in the belly, but**  **8 that's really a function of how much you allow**  **9 the belly insulation to sag.**  **10 And so this is an area that we**  **11 could get into more technical discussion but**  **12 not right now. But that's what I'm talking**  **13 about. I'm saying, okay, it is what it is.**  **14 It's compressed. There's some compression but**  **15 it's a nominal R-21 with a nominal R-11 in the**  **16 belly.**  **17 Okay, so the walls. What I**  **18 learned from the codes in site-built was we**  **19 had R-11 in many of the walls in this country**  **20 and they upped it to R-13 which required a**  **21 higher density fiberglass and was more**  **22 expensive. It was about a 1.2 cents per R per** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 square foot wholesale.**  **2 And over time as the manufacturers**  **3 of the insulation started making more**  **4 insulation that was high density the price**  **5 came down. So that's something to explore.**  **6 Is a high density R-21 or a high**  **7 density R-15 bat something that if it was**  **8 procured in the volumes here would represent**  **9 something about a 1.2 cents or less per square**  **10 foot?**  **11 But I think it's appropriate that**  **12 in zone 1 that we don't need to change the**  **13 framing from 2x4. We can stay with 2x4 but**  **14 let's max out the insulation level with high**  **15 density bat.**  **16 The same philosophy would hold**  **17 true in zones 2 and 3 except now we have a 2x6**  **18 wall. In all cases, assuming 16 inch on**  **19 center. Some manufacturers might make more**  **20 efficient framing but that's the assumption.**  **21 And then if you look under my**  **22 footnote there, we're talking about insulated** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 headers. So there's an expense associated**  **2 with solid headers that are a thermal bridge**  **3 in the framing. But the details of the**  **4 framing factors can be discussed.**  **5 I just want to throw this out as a**  **6 nominal. Is R-15 in a 2x4 something to**  **7 explore, and is R-21 in a 2x6 with the current**  **8 practice walls that you're building? All**  **9 right, so then we get down to the ceilings.**  **10 This is another area where**  **11 weatherization is kind of a lost opportunity.**  **12 If you don't blow it in right, there's no**  **13 attic you can go up into and do it later. So**  **14 this is one where I would argue, you know,**  **15 let's skip the blow right and let's get the**  **16 insulation in the floors, the walls, the**  **17 ceilings. These are areas that you're not**  **18 going to be able to change out.**  **19 So I'm suggesting again it is what**  **20 it is. The U is what it is when you taper.**  **21 So if you have a certain truss and it tapers**  **22 down, I think typically to about a 5-1/2 inch** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 minimum heel height is where the industry is**  **2 going but not always, that that's what you**  **3 get. So what I'm talking about is a nominal**  **4 R-value of R-38 at the kingpost, I think,**  **5 that's the highest point, and tapering down to**  **6 whatever the heel height is paralleling the**  **7 roof slope.**  **8 And we have details of this in our**  **9 quality assurance manuals. So it would be R**  **10 38 in zones 1 and 2 and again a nominal R-49.**  **11 So there we might be talking about 14 to 16**  **12 inches of blown as opposed to 11 to 13 inches**  **13 of blown at the kingpost, again tapering down.**  **14 So we address the compression by**  **15 adjusting the U-factor, but we base everything**  **16 off this standard.**  **17 The next one would be the windows.**  **18 So the windows is one I'm having a little**  **19 issues with because the industry's used**  **20 historically these interior storm windows and**  **21 things.**  **22 So I'm making the paradigm shift** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 away from interior storms or storm windows at**  **2 all in new homes, going to a prime window.**  **3 And I'm suggesting that we investigate whether**  **4 it's appropriate in HUD zone 1 that we have a**  **5 double paned vinyl window. And with a Low E**  **6 coating on it, which once you get to the**  **7 double pane jump in cost is not that expensive**  **8 and will get you the solar heat gain**  **9 coefficient options that Eric was talking out.**  **10 So a 0.35 window, and then going**  **11 to add argon to the window in zones 2 and 3**  **12 would give it a 0.30. These are windows that**  **13 our manufacturers, 60 percent of our**  **14 manufacturers in the Northwest have been**  **15 installing for over ten years.**  **16 Duct tests. I think it's**  **17 appropriate that -- oh, excuse me. Before we**  **18 go into that I wanted to point out that the**  **19 NFRC is the U-factor that I would recommend**  **20 that we use for designating a window's U-value**  **21 and also its solar heat gain coefficient.**  **22 So back to the windows. I have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the 0.35 as the U-value/0.25 is the heat gain**  **2 coefficient. So there would be a requirement**  **3 of 0.25 for solar heat gain coefficient in**  **4 climate zones 1 and 2 and no requirement in**  **5 zone 3.**  **6 Duct leakage. Oh, excuse me. One**  **7 other thing. I am interested in getting**  **8 feedback on awnings, exterior awnings. I did**  **9 a net zero energy home with KIT Homes a few**  **10 years ago with the Bonneville Power**  **11 Administration, the Nez Perce Tribe, and KIT**  **12 offered these exterior awnings that could be**  **13 adjusted and provided shading and would**  **14 significantly reduce the air conditioning load**  **15 to the house.**  **16 There might be some tradeoffs**  **17 there with that and other ways of minimizing**  **18 solar gains. And as I pointed out, I think in**  **19 one of the MHI sizing guides is that if you do**  **20 put some sort of a Low-E that has a reasonable**  **21 solar heat gain coefficient on windows in air**  **22 conditioning climates you can reduce the size** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of the air conditioner by half a ton.**  **2 That doesn't impact the cost of**  **3 the price to the retailer because that's**  **4 something the manufacturer, it's out of the**  **5 manufacturer's realm, but it's something that**  **6 I think is pretty important that we look at**  **7 other options for solar heat gain control.**  **8 But regardless of which option you**  **9 use, one could argue that there's some cost**  **10 savings on the HVAC system even though it's**  **11 not in the sales price of the home to the**  **12 dealer.**  **13 Anyway that's a nuance. Let's get**  **14 into the duct leakage. So what I'd like to do**  **15 is we worked quite hard on the Manufactured**  **16 Housing Consensus Committee for years to get**  **17 a requirement for duct testing that was**  **18 approved by the committee and is awaiting HUD**  **19 to promulgate.**  **20 I think that was four percent of**  **21 floor area. I go back to my notes, but**  **22 whatever it was I think it was a good** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 agreement. We should stick to it and**  **2 prescribe that as the duct leakage testing.**  **3 I know from talking with some of**  **4 the folks in the industry that many**  **5 manufacturers were willing to go into testing**  **6 duct work because it was a good quality**  **7 assurance thing that made business sense to**  **8 them and avoiding moisture issues and**  **9 particularly in the hot, humid climates.**  **10 So under duct testing I would say**  **11 let's use whatever that's in the Manufactured**  **12 Housing Consensus Committee came up with in**  **13 terms of the leakage rate tested at floors.**  **14 Real simple. We do that in the Northwest.**  **15 And I threw out one floor per week**  **16 or one per 40 floors, but whatever we came up**  **17 with in the consensus group we should look at**  **18 that as the frequency.**  **19 And I think if this stuff was in**  **20 the QA plan of the HUD manual it would really**  **21 allow us to adjust that based on the**  **22 performance in the factory. In other words,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 if homes were failing to meet whatever that**  **2 percent, four percent of floor area leakage**  **3 value they would have to test more frequently.**  **4 And that's kind of the process I believe the**  **5 industry's using now for all of their quality**  **6 assurance.**  **7 But let's stick to something we**  **8 already agreed to years ago and I've been**  **9 waiting for HUD to do. On the envelopes**  **10 leakage there was some concern, and I think**  **11 well placed concern by the industry that, you**  **12 know, getting down to like 3ACH50 like the I**  **13 codes have is pretty tough to do.**  **14 Our random studies that we do of**  **15 the 100,000 homes we've built over the years,**  **16 we go out and select every four or five years**  **17 a random selection of them and go out and test**  **18 them. And we would be hard pressed even in**  **19 our program to achieve 3 in all cases.**  **20 Maybe 3-1/2 is an average that**  **21 you're 20 years of working. I think it's not**  **22 really the number you achieve, it's whether or** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 not you're achieving a good quality assurance**  **2 process in the factory that tells you what to**  **3 seal, when to seal it with, what material and**  **4 who checks.**  **5 And this gets back to my reference**  **6 in the quality assurance plan and the proposal**  **7 I made to the Consensus Committee that they**  **8 punted to us, which is if we have explicit**  **9 details that can be enforced about this gets**  **10 caulked, this is how you caulk the P-trap,**  **11 this is when you caulk the ceiling fan**  **12 penetration, and a good checklist like**  **13 something that's used in Energy Star, then it**  **14 doesn't really matter what the number is,**  **15 we're going to have good practice.**  **16 There was also some discussions**  **17 going on about the cost burden of testing**  **18 multi-section homes in the factory**  **19 periodically because they have to be set up.**  **20 And I think that we can learn everything we**  **21 need to learn.**  **22 Really, this testing thing is more** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for a feedback to the plant so that they**  **2 understand that their quality assurance**  **3 procedures are being achieved. So when you**  **4 test a single section home you're going to get**  **5 that feedback which can be applied to all the**  **6 homes whether they're multi-section or not.**  **7 So one thing as a possible**  **8 compromise to consider would be just pulling**  **9 single section homes out and testing them and**  **10 then we can sit down and work out, is there a**  **11 viable way of cost effectively testing the**  **12 multi-section homes in their own individual**  **13 sections?**  **14 Emanuel and I have had a little**  **15 few discussions. It's more, that's research**  **16 based, that's down the road. Can you,**  **17 basically, with the closure up, the plastic**  **18 over the section, depressurize it and get a**  **19 relatively good number and account for the**  **20 leakage associated with the temporary close**  **21 up?**  **22 But again I don't even think we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 need to go there. I think we can learn**  **2 everything we need to learn from testing the**  **3 single wides and applying the quality**  **4 assurance. So that's a compromise, I think,**  **5 trying to leave it at five-year changes now,**  **6 which I think is much more reasonable and a**  **7 good QA program.**  **8 Pipe insulation on the hot water**  **9 pipe, like in the I-codes, I think it's, is it**  **10 R-4? I did this like midnight. But whatever**  **11 the proposed insulation value that has some**  **12 real benefits too.**  **13 When I wake up in the morning, I**  **14 have a 66-foot home and about 60 feet from my**  **15 water heater is my shower. So the good news**  **16 is I get about a minute of pushups before the**  **17 hot water is warm enough to get in the shower.**  **18 The bad news is I've wasted a minute's worth**  **19 of hot water down the drain.**  **20 So there's some energy saving and**  **21 some benefits in terms of water savings, I**  **22 believe, in looking at that insulation option.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And then on the crossover ducts, I think we**  **2 came to some agreement and it's in the HUD**  **3 rule that R-8 seemed to work everywhere in the**  **4 country.**  **5 So that's what I was going to**  **6 propose. That's pretty much what I was**  **7 thinking about. I want to open it up because**  **8 I know, again I'm not saying that this is cost**  **9 effective in all cases and all climates or**  **10 anything, but it's a simple approach.**  **11 It really doesn't vary much. It's**  **12 almost a one-size-fits-all approach. You do**  **13 this and when you could get a house and we**  **14 account for the compression that's already in**  **15 the houses that happen to have more**  **16 compression while they use this path, they**  **17 maybe aren't going to perform exactly the same**  **18 but we've addressed the issue of buildability**  **19 there and come up with a simple approach.**  **20 So anyway that's kind of the idea.**  **21 Again we can horse trade on the numbers and**  **22 the zones and stuff, but that was kind of what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I was thinking about.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Questions?**  **3 MEMBER LUTER: This is Rob Luter.**  **4 I'd like to chime in on the window performance**  **5 if I can?**  **6 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thank you, Rob,**  **7 I would appreciate that.**  **8 MEMBER LUTER: Just a couple**  **9 adjustments. The, and pardon me if I sound a**  **10 little broken up. I'm hearing an echo and**  **11 it's really kind of disturbing to me.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: You're fine on this**  **13 side.**  **14 MEMBER LUTER: In any case, HUD**  **15 zone 1, I think your assumption that a vinyl**  **16 Low-E dual glazed window will make a 3.5**  **17 U-value is correct. The solar heat gain will**  **18 be closer to 0.28 with standard Low-E. What**  **19 I'll call commodity Low-E.**  **20 HUD zone 2 Low-E with argon will**  **21 get you down to about a 3.1 U-value. To get**  **22 down to a 0.30 you're also going to need an** 

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### 1 enhanced glass spacer system which adds **2 significant cost. Again, the solar heat gain 3 about 0.28 with regular Low-E.**  **4 And could you scroll over to HUD 5 zone 3 for me please? I'm not seeing that on**  **6 the screen. Okay, again -- 7 MEMBER LUBLINER: Same as two.**  **8 MEMBER LUTER: Again, 0.31 would 9 be more accurate on the U-value with that**  **10 building materials there. 11 I think the industry will agree**  **12 with me back when the tax credits were issued 13 for the 0.30, 0.30. There was a lot of**  **14 scrambling going on to get from 0.31 onto 15 0.30.**  **16 Now I'll add that on the solar 17 heat gain for zone 1 and zone 2, 0.25 is**  **18 achievable it just takes an enhanced Low-E 19 product that adds additional cost.**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thanks, Robert. 21 I made those changes and we should probably**  **22 look at what that additional cost to the 0.28**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and the 0.25 is and what the savings, but I**  **2 suspect that it's minimal. And I certainly**  **3 think that this, what you just told me, is**  **4 helping to refine and update this to reflect**  **5 reality at least of the E-values.**  **6 Eric, maybe I should draw on you**  **7 on that one, on the 0.28.**  **8 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, this is Eric.**  **9 I just wanted to put out, I do have, I have**  **10 some information.**  **11 Energy Star, when we're working on**  **12 Version 3, again, this is for, you know,**  **13 stick-built homes, but the windows, the**  **14 insulated glass unit should be the same from**  **15 one, you know, build to the next.**  **16 They have some costs data in here**  **17 that I think is interesting and useful. I**  **18 mean I think getting from a 0.28 SHGC down to**  **19 like a 0.25 or a 0.22 is, I think, just**  **20 another coating. Another layer of coating**  **21 which is pretty inexpensive.**  **22 But I think that's something we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 should talk about, you know. What the right**  **2 level is and, you know, if it's a very minimal**  **3 cost.**  **4 But if it reduces the size of the**  **5 air conditions or something, you know, this**  **6 stuff all balances out pretty nicely, so.**  **7 Anyway, that's something we should probably**  **8 continue to discuss.**  **9 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. Perhaps**  **10 what we can do is get PNNL to do a sensitivity**  **11 stay. Looks at 0.28 versus 0.25 and get Rob's**  **12 cost differential with the manufacturers input**  **13 and we can do that.**  **14 But again, I suspect it's not**  **15 going to make a lot of difference. It was**  **16 certainly to get Low-E in the house and with**  **17 people.**  **18 The things that really happen if**  **19 people use awnings and shades and things that**  **20 probably will result in adequate solar heat**  **21 gain savings.**  **22 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Michael, I think this is a good start for**  **2 prescriptive method. You know, I mean we'll**  **3 have to get into some of the specifics on**  **4 whether or not some of this is cost-effective**  **5 or not.**  **6 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes.**  **7 MEMBER TOMPOS: One of my concerns**  **8 is, you know, to be able to say, hey, we're**  **9 putting in R49 in the roof and we're not**  **10 worried about the taper or how that, what that**  **11 actual value is.**  **12 We need somebody to look at the**  **13 FTC requirements on what these manufacturers**  **14 are going to report when they're done building**  **15 this home because they can't put, I'm putting**  **16 in R49 in the roof if it's not an actual R49**  **17 roof. So I just want to make sure we're**  **18 addressing that issue.**  **19 MEMBER LUBLINER: Do you want me**  **20 to feedback and then, I know you have some**  **21 others there? So let's start on that one.**  **22 So I totally agree. You and I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have talked about, what does the FTC really**  **2 have. And I think that's an important liaison**  **3 discussion with DOE and FTC.**  **4 Explain the context, get them in**  **5 here and, I mean right now what's going on is**  **6 the tapering is happening and our nominal**  **7 R-values are being put out. I think, you**  **8 know, we need to be careful how we approach**  **9 that because we don't want to get ourselves in**  **10 trouble for what we're doing now.**  **11 But I think it's, disclosure is**  **12 good. I think that the intent, we're not**  **13 trying to misrepresent to the consumer, which**  **14 is really what the FTC is really worried about**  **15 in some cases. In all cases.**  **16 So I think it would be a healthy**  **17 discussion to say, hey, what can we do so that**  **18 we can advertise this as a nominal R-value**  **19 with whatever the footnote is that says**  **20 accounting for compression associated with the**  **21 construction.**  **22 But those are clearly issues, I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 don't want to propose a prescriptive path that**  **2 gets us in trouble with the Federal Trade**  **3 Commission. So you had some more concerns.**  **4 MEMBER TOMPOS: Just to comment on**  **5 what you just said. To say it's happening now**  **6 --**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: I don't know if**  **8 --**  **9 MEMBER TOMPOS: I don't think it**  **10 is.**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: Okay.**  **12 MEMBER TOMPOS: We're very**  **13 critical, even though it's not a requirement**  **14 of the HUD standards, we're in business to**  **15 protect the manufacturers from getting sued.**  **16 So we have been very critical on making sure**  **17 they're reporting proper values.**  **18 I think it maybe happening outside**  **19 of the manufactured housing industry, but --**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes.**  **21 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- that's a**  **22 compliance issue for somebody else.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LUBLINER: I apologize, I**  **2 didn't mean to misconstrue that. What I was**  **3 thinking is, is sometimes I'll see like a**  **4 literature advertisement of the insulation**  **5 package in some sales literature and it will**  **6 say, R19 walls or R38 in the roof. And**  **7 clearly that's the nominal value.**  **8 And there is compression going on.**  **9 So I think nipping this in the butt and having**  **10 a good discussion with FTC so that there's no**  **11 question whatsoever what we mean and that is**  **12 a healthy thing, so.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I don't think**  **14 they were too concerned about that right now.**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Okay.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Did you have a**  **17 follow-up question?**  **18 MEMBER TOMPOS: No, no. Again, I**  **19 just think --**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thanks, Dave, I**  **21 really --**  **22 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- this is a great** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 start.**  **2 MEMBER LUBLINER: I very much**  **3 appreciate your input and support to the**  **4 concept.**  **5 MEMBER SANTANA: Yes Manny, Cavco.**  **6 I agree that I think this is a great starting**  **7 point. You know, I'd like to commend Luby for**  **8 putting this together.**  **9 This gets to elements that are**  **10 important, and to HUD construction and that**  **11 HUD construction can control. You know, these**  **12 are part of the elements that we need to be**  **13 thinking about. You know, there's no fluff or**  **14 anything like that.**  **15 So I, like I said, I think this**  **16 sets the stage for what we need to discuss.**  **17 I have questions and, on some of the values,**  **18 you know, but that's a great place to start.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, and you guys**  **20 are on the same subcommittee so maybe you**  **21 could --**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: No and, Manny, if** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you have some quick, you know, edits to this**  **2 we could run that in addition to running this.**  **3 It's very easy to do these runs the way we've**  **4 gotten it setup.**  **5 MEMBER SANTANA: Yes. I can think**  **6 of some that maybe, you know, right off the**  **7 top. I see Note Number 2.**  **8 From manufacturers that are using**  **9 tested headers it might be tough to get**  **10 insulation in there, you know and safe to say**  **11 an R5. What's an R5 in a rigid board, is that**  **12 half inch or is that three-quarters of an**  **13 inch?**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, one inch of**  **15 --**  **16 MEMBER SANTANA: One inch.**  **17 MEMBER LUBLINER: -- pink board --**  **18 MEMBER SANTANA: Right.**  **19 MEMBER LUBLINER: -- or**  **20 three-quarters of an inch of foil faced**  **21 isocyanurate.**  **22 MEMBER SANTANA: Right, so if you** 

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### 1 have, so say if you have a 2x6 wall you have **2 two half inch ends. So it wouldn't be a 3 problem there, right. But of you got 2x4**  **4 walls you only have a half inch end. 5 MEMBER LUBLINER: I try.**  **6 MEMBER SANTANA: So that may have 7 to be adjusted. And then little things like**  **8 that then we have to see, you know, the R38, 9 the kingpost, tapered to the truss heel, that**  **10 seems very doable, you know. It won't be an 11 effective R38 that you have, that you get in**  **12 the roof, as Dave said. 13 But I mean as far as how this**  **14 thing can work, the R15 as a standard in the 15 walls I think might be a little much for zone**  **16 1. But, you know, stuff like that is what we 17 have to discuss. But overall I think it's a**  **18 great start. 19 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thank you.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: So a couple 21 follow-ups then. It sounds like we need to**  **22 run the KISS straw man, right? That's what**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you're calling it, Luby?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: It's the KISS-Luby**  **3 Proposal.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: The KISS-Luby**  **5 Proposal.**  **6 MEMBER TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. Why**  **7 did you use R4 on the waterlines when IECC**  **8 uses three? I just want to make sure we're**  **9 not using any --**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: Because it was**  **11 midnight last night, I couldn't remember what**  **12 it was.**  **13 MEMBER TOMPOS: Oh, okay.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Which is R3.**  **15 MEMBER TOMPOS: It should be R3**  **16 and --**  **17 MEMBER LUBLINER: My bad. I heard**  **18 a real interesting presentation by Gary Klein,**  **19 who is the water guru on this stuff, and he**  **20 said for the commercial buildings what they**  **21 say is, whatever the diameter of the pipe is,**  **22 that's the thickness of the insulation that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you should use. We don't need to be that**  **2 complicated, R3 works for me.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: So you could change**  **4 it on here so we can print it out?**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, absolutely.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: I can do that**  **8 right now.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: So the question I**  **10 have is for the KISS-Luby study, we're going**  **11 to be doing the, a PNNL study on those?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm sorry, say it**  **13 again?**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Did you said it was**  **15 -- MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. No, PNNL can**  **16 run this. Let me just be clear. I think Rob**  **17 Luter said that the windows should be changed**  **18 to 0.35, 0.28, 0.31, 0.28 and 0.31.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Got it.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: All right. And**  **21 then --**  **22 MEMBER LUTER: This is Rob, let me** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 offer clarification there. That is the**  **2 performance that would be reflective of the**  **3 construction attributes he has listed.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: All right. And**  **5 then you mentioned something about the HUD**  **6 zone 2 windows being extremely expensive, do**  **7 you have alternate that you'd also like to**  **8 run?**  **9 MEMBER LUTER: I'm not sure I said**  **10 that.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, sorry.**  **12 MEMBER LUTER: The point I was**  **13 making was that with respect to the solar heat**  **14 gain that was previously shown, that is**  **15 achievable with a Low-E product different than**  **16 I assumed he was considering. It's an**  **17 enhanced product.**  **18 As Eric put it, it has an extra**  **19 layer on it. There's extra cost, there's less**  **20 economies of scale that comes in.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Eric.**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: This is Eric. I'd** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really like to see how the 2.5 SHGC comes out**  **2 for zone 1 and zone 2 because that's what's**  **3 required in the 2015 IECC and the 2012 as**  **4 well.**  **5 And I think it's going to come out**  **6 pretty cost-effective, especially when you**  **7 consider the cooling load issue and potential**  **8 resizing.**  **9 So anyway, it's a very common**  **10 technology that all the manufacturers offer,**  **11 it's just another coating and it's pretty**  **12 inexpensive. So if we could have, you know,**  **13 the numbers back on what a 2.5 SHGC would be**  **14 I think we'd benefit from that.**  **15 MEMBER LUTER: My point was to**  **16 dispute that it was achievable.**  **17 MEMBER LACEY: Got it.**  **18 MEMBER LUTER: My point was that**  **19 the, just plain Jane Low-E won't get you**  **20 there. It takes a more expensive product.**  **21 And maybe that's cost-effective.**  **22 MEMBER LACEY: Understood.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LUBLINER: I think what I'm**  **2 hearing is we need to get the costs and do the**  **3 simulation for the savings and see whether**  **4 there's a justifiable bang for the buck to go**  **5 down 0.25 from 0.28. And yes, I totally, I**  **6 think that's appropriate.**  **7 So I bolded the ones that are**  **8 questions that we want to --**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: So we'll add that**  **10 --**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: -- kind of**  **12 refine.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll add that as**  **14 the Eric-KISS-Luby Proposal.**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thank you.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: All right.**  **17 MEMBER LUBLINER: Thank you. And**  **18 also, Rob, just to, some of the people that**  **19 I've been talking to, Cardinal, you probably**  **20 have the cost data, but they said they'd be**  **21 much, very welcome to talk with you all about**  **22 the Low-E since that's, they manufacture the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Low-E.**  **2 I don't know if you're using them**  **3 or other manufacturer, but they were engaged**  **4 in this discussion and offered their**  **5 assistance if needed. Thank you everyone.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold one yet.**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: Oh, we got more?**  **8 MEMBER EPPERSON: It's not a**  **9 question, just comment. I think it's a great**  **10 place to start, it's close to our**  **11 specifications. Amy and I are looking at**  **12 this.**  **13 It's simplistic that it's just,**  **14 you know, the HUD zones in a way I think the**  **15 industry looks at it, so I think it's a good**  **16 start.**  **17 MEMBER LUTER: Thank you.**  **18 MEMBER EPPERSON: I still want to**  **19 nail down the subject just because --**  **20 MEMBER KESSLER: Hey, Luby, this**  **21 is Bert.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: Hey, Bert.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER KESSLER: I have known you**  **2 for a long time and I just can't believe that**  **3 you actually put in writing, U is what it is.**  **4 MEMBER LUBLINER: So long as the**  **5 FTC lets us do it, it's okay with me.**  **6 You know, I think that really, if**  **7 we were able to implement a good quality**  **8 assurance procedure on terms of how we put the**  **9 insulation in the walls and the ceiling and**  **10 you have that, whether it's bat counts or**  **11 depth charts or a QA plan that says no voids,**  **12 you know, or minimize voids, I think really**  **13 that's what we're trying to get to is, and**  **14 recognizing that we do want you to have to go**  **15 to 2x8's if you're building 2x6, that doesn't**  **16 make any sense if we can just degrade the**  **17 U-value assumption and stay with something**  **18 that may work and is simpler.**  **19 But yes, I, a lot of this stuff**  **20 came from working with you over the years too,**  **21 Bert, so thank you.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: We have a --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER EZZO: Hey, Mike, this is**  **2 Mark Ezzo at Clayton.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead Mark.**  **4 MEMBER LUBLINER: Hey, Mark.**  **5 MEMBER EZZO: I think this is a**  **6 great start, really good work on your part.**  **7 I really like the nominal R that you're**  **8 talking about there and, you know, the U**  **9 whatever it is is what it is. I think that's**  **10 perfect.**  **11 It prevents all of us**  **12 manufacturers from having to run thousands of**  **13 U-value component counts and figuring out how**  **14 to address compression and other things. So**  **15 I really like the simplicity of this.**  **16 Only question I have is on the**  **17 floor insulation where you're saying 11 belly**  **18 blanket plus 21. Is the 21 bat, is that going**  **19 just from the rim to the main rail or is that**  **20 going all the way across the floor?**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: That would be**  **22 the entire floor.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER EZZO: Okay, not just the**  **2 outrigger area?**  **3 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, yes.**  **4 MEMBER EZZO: Got you, okay.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: And I want to**  **6 say that --**  **7 MEMBER EZZO: And then --**  **8 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'm sorry, keep**  **9 going.**  **10 MEMBER EZZO: And then --**  **11 MEMBER KESSLER: As far as HUD --**  **12 MEMBER EZZO: Oh, I'm sorry, go**  **13 ahead.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead Michael.**  **15 MEMBER KESSLER: Well my point**  **16 there was that we really have to look at how**  **17 that is to be installed. I guess my point too**  **18 is, and maybe that's too technical for this**  **19 audience, but if that bat goes below the edge**  **20 of the floor joist, then it essentially become**  **21 ineffective.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: Absolutely. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think that, what we're trying to get to is**  **2 something that we've been trying to build in**  **3 the Northwest for many years with your**  **4 factories and make sure we minimize any**  **5 leakage paths that could reduce the**  **6 effectiveness of the floor insulation. So**  **7 yes.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe?**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: I've got a quick**  **10 question for David Tompos since he brought it**  **11 up. In those states that have the shipping**  **12 issues, are you going to have a problem**  **13 building this unit and shipping this unit?**  **14 Does this unit solve that shipping problem**  **15 that you were talking about earlier?**  **16 MEMBER TOMPOS: Maybe. How about**  **17 that answer?**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: That is not an**  **19 answer.**  **20 MEMBER TOMPOS: R49 still, I think**  **21 we're going to be a little shy of that in some**  **22 of the, I'm trying to draw up a diagram so** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that we can show where are limits are and how**  **2 much I can get in a single wide for that**  **3 specific region. So I'll have more**  **4 information next time.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Stacy?**  **6 MEMBER EZZO: Hey, Dave, this is**  **7 Mark Ezzo, maybe this might help. You can get**  **8 49 at the kingpost like Mike's suggesting.**  **9 The challenge is because of the**  **10 taper of, or the geometry of, the single wide**  **11 trusses of the vaulted ceilings, the**  **12 manufacturers of the insulation that we buy**  **13 tell us how many bags of insulation we have to**  **14 blow in a ceiling to get R49. And they're**  **15 just physically isn't enough room in certain**  **16 trusses to put that many bags in.**  **17 So there maybe cases where if we**  **18 need to hit 49 that a truss geometry might**  **19 have to change.**  **20 And one of the reasons I like the**  **21 PNNL document where they limited the roof to**  **22 38, I thought that was a good concession.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And, Mike, I don't know if you're willing to**  **2 put your zone 3 down at R38 or not but that**  **3 might solve that problem of having to change**  **4 truss geometry.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: I certainly**  **6 think we should look at the cost and the**  **7 benefit and if, see where it falls. But yes,**  **8 I understand what you're talking about.**  **9 Because the bat count becomes**  **10 problematic as you get, you're moving**  **11 insulation from one area to another and you**  **12 need to maintain a one inch air space. So**  **13 yes, I think that should be open for our**  **14 discussion.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So is that a**  **16 recommendation that I run that --**  **17 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, please.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: -- as well? 38**  **19 there?**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: 49 in zone 3, 49**  **21 versus 38. And I, the ones that we decided we**  **22 were going to investigate more I've just** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bolded. I bolded them here so that's kind of**  **2 my code for we need to think about these**  **3 things.**  **4 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **5 You know, Joe, when DOE runs these analysis**  **6 they might want to keep in mind that they're**  **7 not going to do it with R49 in the roof. It's**  **8 R49 at the kingpost, but it might start to**  **9 slope immediately depending on the**  **10 configuration of the truss.**  **11 So, you know, R49, and then that's**  **12 why I think, you know, that's one of the**  **13 reasons why I liked it because, you know, one,**  **14 it's prescriptive so it's not supposed to**  **15 apply to everything that's out there.**  **16 So if you're in zone 3 and you**  **17 have, you know, 17 inches at the kingpost,**  **18 then you can comply. You could use the**  **19 prescriptive path.**  **20 But if you're not in, well if**  **21 you're in R3 and you don't have the 17 inches**  **22 at the kingpost, you might have to take** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 another compliance path because this one won't**  **2 work. It won't be applicable to every house.**  **3 But if you have your 17 inches at**  **4 the kingpost for zone 3, then you can put your**  **5 R49 at that point. But it might start to**  **6 slope immediately and you don't have to really**  **7 take that into account as much because it's**  **8 part of the descriptive path.**  **9 You know, that's how we get the**  **10 benefit out this thing. And I think, well I**  **11 think that's good.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you.**  **13 Robin?**  **14 MEMBER ROY: That all sounds**  **15 sensible. Joe in PNNL, you guys know what to**  **16 put in for U is what it is based on these real**  **17 considerations because I'm going to have to**  **18 calculate that?**  **19 Will that pose any problems? I**  **20 thought there was some consideration, there's**  **21 some question about how the calculations are**  **22 done before, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER TOMPOS: No, the problem,**  **2 Dave Tompos, the problem is going to be**  **3 depending on your unit width or if it's a**  **4 single wide, double wide, you're going to**  **5 have, you know, if you just say R49, that's**  **6 great.**  **7 But yes, depending on your unit**  **8 width, the U-value for that R-value, you know,**  **9 there's not a, it's not a direct relationship.**  **10 It's going to change.**  **11 MEMBER ROY: That's what I was**  **12 wondering. So how, what are they going to**  **13 model? So this would be an interesting little**  **14 challenge. We have one of these --**  **15 MEMBER TOMPOS: I'd like them to**  **16 figure that out.**  **17 MEMBER ROY: Well we had these**  **18 conversations yesterday, right, with some**  **19 concern that you weren't actually getting the**  **20 U-values that were shown up in the Uo**  **21 calculation.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: So how they model** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it is they build a model, not a, I want to say**  **2 a physical model but it's not a physical,**  **3 virtue model of all those components, right,**  **4 in, you know, the geometries in the 3**  **5 dimensional. And then they run the software**  **6 on it.**  **7 So they actually start with all**  **8 the components and then they had to generate**  **9 the U-values in the way that you all express**  **10 those. I don't believe it's necessarily hard**  **11 for them to do what you're asking them to do.**  **12 It's actually, I think, easier.**  **13 MEMBER TOMPOS: So they are, I**  **14 mean they're modeling the actual --**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **16 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- geometry of --**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **18 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- the truss and**  **19 --**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Of the component,**  **21 yes.**  **22 MEMBER SANTANA: For multiple** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 widths, you know, so say if you have a 12 wide**  **2 --**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: No, no. So go back**  **4 to the assumption sheet, you know, with the**  **5 single wide and the double section in those**  **6 geometries.**  **7 MEMBER TOMPOS: Oh, they're doing**  **8 it based on, okay.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. That's how**  **10 this all ties together, right? And you'll see**  **11 that in the modeling document that I sent out.**  **12 So I don't want you to think that**  **13 they're modeling the truss because they're**  **14 not. They're just modeling the insulation,**  **15 right?**  **16 MEMBER SANTANA: Well when they do**  **17 that, do they use an R-value of 49, is that**  **18 their starting point?**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that's what**  **20 they would use. I mean --**  **21 MEMBER SANTANA: Would that be an**  **22 accurate, you know, because you won't get R49** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for the roof.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: That's exactly**  **3 right, that's why I need to know if you can't**  **4 get a 49 in the roof I need to know what you**  **5 can get in the roof.**  **6 MEMBER SANTANA: Well you get 49**  **7 at the peak.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **9 MEMBER SANTANA: You know. But**  **10 then that's it. After that it might start**  **11 sloping, you know, along with the truss --**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure.**  **13 MEMBER SANTANA: -- and whatever,**  **14 however tight that is. So, you know, for**  **15 instance to give you an extreme for instance,**  **16 if you have a unit that's 12 feet wide and**  **17 it's a single wide and it has a peak and you**  **18 have 17 inches at the peak and five and a half**  **19 at the heel, so you have six feet to go from**  **20 17 to five and a half. That's not going to be**  **21 an R49 for the whole roof.**  **22 MR. BARBOUR: Yes, what I heard** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 yesterday, just a point, this is Ed Barbour,**  **2 Navigant Consultant. Just a point of**  **3 clarification.**  **4 If you would look in the Uo**  **5 calculation, the sheets that Emanuel**  **6 highlighted yesterday that were hidden, if you**  **7 unhide them you'll actually see how PNNL has**  **8 calculated it between the truss, with the**  **9 truss, how much is partial. It's the exact**  **10 same way.**  **11 It's follows methodology that the**  **12 manufacturers are supposed to use when they**  **13 calculate Uo for the components.**  **14 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin.**  **15 That's what I recall too. And, but what I**  **16 also recall is some conversation about, it**  **17 looked like the numbers may not have lined up**  **18 with the understanding of some of the**  **19 manufacturers.**  **20 MR. BARBOUR: I heard that**  **21 yesterday as well.**  **22 MEMBER ROY: So, and I'm hoping** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they're, the manufacturer will take a look at**  **2 that. Either your Uo sheet or you can look at**  **3 their Uo sheets to figure out where that**  **4 disparity comes about. Discrepancy.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, I think**  **6 again it gets back to when we say, it is what,**  **7 U is what it is but U is going to vary**  **8 depending on the truss configurations. And we**  **9 want to take a typical one and model it.**  **10 We also want to look at a worst**  **11 case scenario that you can identify where**  **12 you're going to be most challenged that it is**  **13 what it is but it's a big difference of a**  **14 nominal R than a true R49 or an R38.**  **15 Just a final points, comments.**  **16 I'm not in any position wanting to propose**  **17 water heating, lighting, space heating, all**  **18 the other things we talked about, in terms of**  **19 legal, in the discussion of what authority.**  **20 That's not part of this package. That's, I'm**  **21 not going there with this group.**  **22 So I just want to let you know in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 good faith, as much as I would like to get**  **2 into that with this group, but it's something**  **3 that I'm not proposing as part of this**  **4 package. And I would like to see a discussion**  **5 on the durability of weather resistant**  **6 barriers and flashing. But that's again, a**  **7 separate discussion from the energy**  **8 discussion.**  **9 But I do think that, that that, if**  **10 we do these packages and we had a good weather**  **11 resistant barrier system for the home, I would**  **12 feel very comfortable talking to anyone. New**  **13 York Times or a home owner saying or a banker,**  **14 and tell Jamie Dimon that this is a same, if**  **15 not better, than a site-build home.**  **16 And I'd like to see the preamble**  **17 of this group come out with that message.**  **18 That we should get the same afforded financing**  **19 as site-build homes and start to explore the**  **20 realistic reasons as to why the banks are**  **21 concerned about that.**  **22 Now that might be incredible** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 naive, but it's a lofty goal that I think that**  **2 if we can get collaboration here on good value**  **3 and energy, I'm very happy to support the**  **4 industry in terms of making that case. I**  **5 think there's others that might as well. So**  **6 thanks.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Then, there**  **8 was a far more technical discussion here than**  **9 I could wrap my hands around. So, Joe, I'm**  **10 assuming that when Manny, throughout his**  **11 revisions and things like that, you were able**  **12 to catch them so you could do whatever studies**  **13 are appropriate there? Okay.**  **14 And then there was one comment**  **15 from Michael Wade that I want to read, make**  **16 sure that he's being represented as well.**  **17 Mr. Lubliner stated that the cost**  **18 of insulation per R is around one cent per**  **19 square foot. Reality is that by the time it**  **20 gets to the consumer, an upgrade is around**  **21 0.075 per R per square foot. Noted.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, I totally** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 agree with Michael that what I was talking**  **2 about is the wholesale price to the**  **3 manufacturer that then would have to get**  **4 marked up to reflect their additional labor,**  **5 their expenses, their profit as well as the**  **6 retailers margin.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, anything else**  **8 on this before we move on? All right, great**  **9 discussion there.**  **10 Michael, do you want to have a**  **11 discussion on sources of data and that's where**  **12 we're going to go next. But before we do, do**  **13 we need a break or do you want to keep**  **14 rolling?**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Should we ask to,**  **16 if we still need that discussion since we had**  **17 it earlier?**  **18 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **19 Lubliner. I think we flushed a lot of that**  **20 stuff --**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: -- out already.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 You know, on the comments that I've made and**  **2 other people have provided data sources. I**  **3 don't know how everybody else feels, I don't**  **4 necessarily need to have that discussion.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's have a vote**  **6 to remove it from the agenda.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. I didn't**  **8 see any thumbs down.**  **9 (Off microphone comments)**  **10 MEMBER LUBLINER: My associates**  **11 call me Minute Lube so I've busted them all**  **12 here.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, well end**  **14 that one there. I tell you what, we'll go on**  **15 break before that one goes any further.**  **16 All right, so ten minutes, we'll**  **17 call a quick break, and actually I think you**  **18 still have a little bit of time to get a cup**  **19 of coffee or something before they close up**  **20 over there.**  **21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **22 matter went off the record at 2:28 p.m. and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 resumed at 2:46 p.m.)**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: We're back on the**  **3 clock and --**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I start by**  **5 saying yes --**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Of course.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: -- so that was a**  **8 really good discussion that we had and I'm**  **9 glad. This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. That was a**  **10 really good discussion.**  **11 Luby, thank you so much for**  **12 Proposal Number 1 and then Proposal Number 2**  **13 was going back to the original view values and**  **14 the solar heat getting coefficients and then**  **15 Proposal 3 was that R32 of the kingpost.**  **16 And I first of all, I've got to**  **17 apologize for PNL that they hid some of those**  **18 tabs in there and the terms, I think they were**  **19 just trying to keep it simple but in actuality**  **20 I think we need to see all that so I will tell**  **21 them not to do that anymore.**  **22 I look forward to giving you all** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of this data that you're asking for right now**  **2 hopefully by Wednesday of next week if not**  **3 sooner.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Just for one**  **5 clarification, yes, I guess they are three**  **6 different proposals but they're for each of**  **7 the HUD zones.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, good, so**  **11 timeout before I go any further, let me go**  **12 first. It's three proposals for all of the**  **13 HUD zones but they're going to go, they're**  **14 going to model it in all the climate zones,**  **15 the IECC climate zones still, so there will be**  **16 11 climate zones that we'll map to the three**  **17 climate zones in HUD.**  **18 And in addition to that they will**  **19 model it with the various appliance and**  **20 equipment that they modeled before and the**  **21 different field types they modeled before.**  **22 So you'll see basically the same** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 type of analysis that we already presented but**  **2 with these variables.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Excellent, great,**  **4 thank you. David?**  **5 MEMBER TOMPOS: Just one change to**  **6 Luby's proposal here. On the, I don't know**  **7 how much difference this really makes but I**  **8 thought we should be consistent with the IECC.**  **9 So we already changed it to an R3,**  **10 but it doesn't require it everywhere as I**  **11 think this proposal says that it does, it's**  **12 only on 3/4-inch or larger nominal pipe size,**  **13 which typically in manufactured housing I**  **14 think it's just going to be the main run.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So that's an R3 on**  **16 the main run?**  **17 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, a 3/4-inch**  **18 size, I think. That's right, Eric, is the**  **19 current discussion? I mean that handles a**  **20 large portion of the pushup problem that I was**  **21 talking about, you know, waiting a long time**  **22 is the main trunk.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We could talk about the other**  **2 stuff offline, but that was, my intent was to**  **3 mimic what was in the I Code, sir.**  **4 MEMBER LACEY: Yes, this is Eric.**  **5 I would just add that the requirement changed**  **6 between 2012 and 2015 and I think it's**  **7 required in fewer places now, but it's more**  **8 than just 3/4-inch pipe.**  **9 There are a few more places, but**  **10 that's something that, yes, that could be**  **11 easily fixed and I can look that up while**  **12 we're talking.**  **13 MEMBER SANTANA: Anytime the**  **14 mandatory requirements to the IECC --**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Well I can tell**  **16 you what they are.**  **17 MEMBER LACEY: I can get someone**  **18 to look at it, yes.**  **19 MEMBER LUBLINER: I can tell you**  **20 what they are real quick, I mean the ones that**  **21 pertain. I mean there's some in here that,**  **22 serving more than one dwelling unit obviously** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 don't pertain. **2 Piping located outside the 3 condition space, that would be something that**  **4 we'd want to include. Piping from the water 5 heater to distribution manifold, piping**  **6 located under a floor slab doesn't pertain. 7 Buried piping doesn't pertain.**  **8 Supply and return piping in recirculation 9 systems, other than demand recirculation**  **10 systems, so I mean if we want to include all 11 that.**  **12 Some of those don't happen very 13 often. I mean I don't know if -- Has anybody**  **14 ever done a recirculation system in a -- 15 I was thinking just in the small**  **16 percentage of homes like the ones that were 17 advertised in the Wall Street Journal the**  **18 other day, but I think you're right. 19 MEMBER TOMPOS: I mean if we want**  **20 to -- 21 MEMBER LUBLINER: It's in the**  **22 noise. It's in the noise, yes.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER TOMPOS: -- include it to**  **2 be consistent with the IECC I don't think**  **3 anybody has a problem with that.**  **4 MEMBER LUBLINER: No. No.**  **5 MEMBER TOMPOS: But it's pretty**  **6 limited.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right,**  **8 Robin?**  **9 MEMBER ROY: I'm just curious and**  **10 following up. Do we also have the KISS Energy**  **11 Star proposal that you guys are looking at?**  **12 Do you need any more information for that or**  **13 do you have anything you need?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: I believe I have**  **15 everything I need until you see the results**  **16 and you tell me that I didn't do it right.**  **17 But we got the information from Emanuel on the**  **18 Energy Star Program and that is what they**  **19 modeled, but I have not seen the results.**  **20 I think I'm supposed to get the**  **21 results by today, which I assume close of**  **22 business today, so you'll see it next week as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 well.**  **2 MEMBER ROY: I'm not racing for**  **3 it, I was just hoping it hadn't fallen away as**  **4 one of the kissable items.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, next step**  **6 is we want to take a look at the Mind Map and**  **7 this was something that was sent out to you**  **8 all. If you have a hard copy you could look**  **9 at it, if not we'll blow this up section-by**  **10 section as we go through.**  **11 But I wanted to, I didn't want to**  **12 take a lot of time on it, right. I wanted to**  **13 be able to just do a quick review and see is**  **14 there any cleanup that we need to do on this**  **15 as far as we've had some of this discussion**  **16 are there items on here that are not within**  **17 purview that we need to strike out for now.**  **18 Did we miss any glaring items that**  **19 we need to add it? So let's look at Number 1**  **20 and we'll isolate that one, if we could go to,**  **21 if you click on "Envelope of Building."**  **22 Perfect.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Is there anything on here that we**  **2 should eliminate based on our discussions or**  **3 is there anything that we need to make sure**  **4 that we add on here?**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Or is it still**  **6 useful after you have your terms of reference?**  **7 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **8 I think a lot of this, well I think most of**  **9 this has been discussed or it will be**  **10 discussed, you know, for example, well I don't**  **11 know that insulation installation grading is**  **12 currently in the IECC.**  **13 It has requirements for**  **14 installation, but I don't think it has any**  **15 grading in there, so I don't if that's**  **16 pertinent.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, if I remember**  **18 some of the discussion on that was that the**  **19 values on that were fairly insignificant,**  **20 between one and two in the savings and so we**  **21 didn't really have to focus a lot of attention**  **22 on that if I remember correctly.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SANTANA: That has more to**  **2 do I think with execution that Government of**  **3 Code.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **5 MEMBER SANTANA: And then the**  **6 items under 1.5, those are probably going to**  **7 be, except for 1.51, the other ones are**  **8 probably going to be part of what's in the**  **9 mandatory requirements that we're going to**  **10 discuss at a subcommittee.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's put a**  **12 strike through on 1.4. I'm sorry, not 1.54,**  **13 just 1.4.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: And then on those,**  **15 so on the durability -- I'm sorry, you said**  **16 1.52, 1.53, and 1.54?**  **17 MEMBER SANTANA: Will probably be,**  **18 all of those would be part of the mandatory**  **19 measures. I think so.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, let's instead**  **21 put in parentheses after them put it has to do**  **22 with mandatory components, or, those are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 mandatory components?**  **2 MEMBER TOMPOS: Is the window**  **3 flashing, Eric? I don't think it is.**  **4 MEMBER LACEY: Can we defer it to**  **5 the Mandatory Committee, or I don't know what**  **6 we're calling it.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **8 MEMBER LACEY: And I'll go through**  **9 and I can provide a list of what some of these**  **10 requirements are and whether they're mandatory**  **11 or prescriptive, does that help?**  **12 MEMBER SANTANA: And then 1.51, I**  **13 can't remember exactly why we put that up**  **14 there.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Well that's kind of**  **16 an example of is that something that this**  **17 committee is charged with and if it's not do**  **18 we put a strike through? David?**  **19 MEMBER TOMPOS: My opinion is it's**  **20 not in our scope.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **22 MEMBER TOMPOS: Even though it's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 important I think we delete it for now.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: So show of thumbs if**  **3 you're okay with striking 1.51.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, put a strike**  **5 through on that. All right, so is that all**  **6 the cleanup that we need for now for this**  **7 first issue? And if you could do a fit to**  **8 window for me when it, I know it's a lot.**  **9 Bottom right, there you go. Go**  **10 ahead and do the, yes, the single view of**  **11 that.**  **12 So is that all we need to do for a**  **13 cleanup on Number 1? Is air leakage relevant?**  **14 Okay. Next point, all right, so let's go**  **15 ahead and move to equipment. How's that**  **16 looking?**  **17 If I remember that was the noise**  **18 that the furnaces would create, so --**  **19 MEMBER KESSLER: This is Bert,**  **20 Palm Harbor.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes?**  **22 MEMBER KESSLER: I think based on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the discussions we've had earlier today and**  **2 yesterday, 2.4 should be stricken. I think**  **3 that's definitely a decision that should be**  **4 made by the homeowner and not be part of any**  **5 code.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: I believe that's**  **7 that issue that, it's part of the issue that's**  **8 in the parking lot right now. So why don't we**  **9 put parking lot and then that way it's there**  **10 but we'll see if we have time to get to that.**  **11 Does that sound all right?**  **12 MEMBER SANTANA: Can I make a**  **13 suggestion to that, Javier?**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Manny.**  **15 MEMBER SANTANA: In addition to**  **16 saying parking lot can we say, somehow state**  **17 that these are the appliances that ship with**  **18 the home, mandatory appliances?**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, yes, we**  **20 could --**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. Like**  **22 equipment that ships with -- Microphones.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROY: The mandatory ones**  **2 are 2.1 and 2.3, right?**  **3 MEMBER SANTANA: The item in the**  **4 parking lot, it's appliances, equipment as,**  **5 and then we added water heater to it because**  **6 it, I think the discussion went towards more**  **7 what's mandatory that the homeowner actually**  **8 has to control.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: So the parking lot**  **10 I believe is the NAECA issue, right? And then**  **11 a sub-component of that parking lot item is**  **12 the equipment that ships with the unit.**  **13 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. What**  **14 I heard, I think it was Bert just saying he**  **15 was thinking the non-required to be shipped**  **16 with appliances, like a fridge, which isn't**  **17 required to be shipped with, right? It should**  **18 be stricken if it is removed.**  **19 MEMBER WEISS: That's right. I**  **20 thought he was saying strike the whole**  **21 category.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, well we could,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I mean we could clean it up right now if we**  **2 need to.**  **3 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR.**  **4 I agree with Bert. I think based on the**  **5 discussion today, the workload we already**  **6 have, I think that should be stricken period**  **7 and park as well.**  **8 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Peter?**  **10 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Peter from**  **11 Efficiency Vermont. I would include it**  **12 because it is part of the home package and to**  **13 be honest it's not really a homeowner's**  **14 decision.**  **15 You know, the water heater shows**  **16 up, the refrigerator shows up with the home as**  **17 it is whether it's on the dealer lot or it's**  **18 a special order, so I would keep it there and**  **19 wait for the NAECA decision.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so a**  **21 cleanup there that we can put is that it's**  **22 referencing NAECA, and that's the issue that's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in the parking lot.**  **2 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And this is**  **3 just Peter again from Efficiency Vermont.**  **4 Just on that same track, I was muted so I**  **5 wasn't able to contribute to the last section**  **6 so I'll revisit that.**  **7 But after, with regards to**  **8 acoustics, I know there was a question about**  **9 that, you know, this is just like appliances**  **10 coming with a manufactured home which is very**  **11 different than a stick-built home or even a**  **12 modular home and that's why I think that it**  **13 should be included.**  **14 It's the same with acoustics.**  **15 Time and time again it leads where we are.**  **16 Homeowners complain about how loud the**  **17 furnaces are in their living space.**  **18 They're sitting in the hallway**  **19 behind a vented panel and they can't even hear**  **20 the T.V. or the radio or each other, talk to**  **21 each other.**  **22 So, you know, it's a very unique** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 situation with manufactured housing. It's a**  **2 problem that I hear about over and over again,**  **3 so I feel like that may not be a common**  **4 situation in typical stick-builts or modular**  **5 homes where you have a basement or a crawl**  **6 space with mechanical equipment, but in a**  **7 manufactured home it's typically in the living**  **8 space and should be dealt with differently.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, and maybe**  **10 it's just me, so you all need to tell me if**  **11 I'm failing to connect the dots here, but what**  **12 does that do with efficiency?**  **13 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well I think**  **14 it's associated with fan efficiency to be**  **15 perfectly honest, you know. These are very**  **16 inefficient fans and the noise associated with**  **17 those, but I just think that it's, you know,**  **18 it could be related to the code that we're**  **19 developing here.**  **20 It's something specific that's**  **21 never been dealt with but is a big problem so**  **22 I just want to have it on the table.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LUTER: This is Rob Luter.**  **2 I'd like to comment on that if I could,**  **3 please?**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, please.**  **5 MEMBER LUTER: I know the subject**  **6 of the noise from air move or specifically**  **7 whole house ventilation has been a problem for**  **8 awhile.**  **9 The least expensive way to move**  **10 air is usually not the quietest and if fans**  **11 are noisy people won't run them. There's been**  **12 a number of products developed that will move**  **13 air nearly silently but they're very**  **14 expensive.**  **15 I think the noise issue,**  **16 specifically sone levels, have been either**  **17 mandated or attempted to be mandated to**  **18 encourage the homeowners to run the fans more**  **19 often and so they can hear their T.V.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let me set**  **21 that aside for just a second. How is**  **22 everything else looking on here as far as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Number 2 goes?**  **2 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **3 Well, you know, I'm not trying to minimize or**  **4 belittle the importance of acoustics, but**  **5 trying to stay inline with our mandate as a**  **6 working group, I don't know that the acoustics**  **7 or even indoor air quality is within our**  **8 scope.**  **9 MEMBER LUTER: Well I think**  **10 mechanical ventilation is certainly within our**  **11 scope as it's called out in IECC 2015 and I**  **12 would also note that, you know, in 403.61, you**  **13 know, it notes that ultimately you need to**  **14 meet the fan efficacy noted in that table or**  **15 install a BTM fan which would resolve this**  **16 issue.**  **17 MEMBER SANTANA: Are those part of**  **18 the mandatory requirements? Can we group this**  **19 in with that subcommittee?**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: It probably will be**  **21 anyways, right, because that's some of the**  **22 stuff they're going to be viewing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SANTANA: All right, very**  **2 good.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so we'll**  **4 leave it on there. We'll revisit this map**  **5 again, you know, in the future based on some**  **6 of the research and the work of the**  **7 subcommittees we'll see how we deal with it.**  **8 Does that sound okay to everyone?**  **9 Okay. All right, so then let's look at Number**  **10 3.**  **11 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And can I just**  **12 -- It's just Peter again. I apologize, but**  **13 just in regards to the insulation installation**  **14 grading, that was just scratched, I didn't**  **15 have a chance to comment nor did I understand**  **16 why grading wasn't just removed from that but**  **17 the line item kept?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: You're asking why**  **19 that was removed, is that the question? Okay.**  **20 I'll let the group jump in on this. I think**  **21 some of the response to that was that as far**  **22 as the installation of it, from the way I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 recall it there were three steps, one, two,**  **2 and three levels of the grading and the**  **3 efficiency, the savings on them were fairly**  **4 small in between one and two and for the most**  **5 part very few actually saw a Level 3 grading.**  **6 Level 1 is the highest efficiency**  **7 and most of them were within that one and two**  **8 and the saving differences were fairly minimal**  **9 and so I think that was part of the reason**  **10 that the group was saying that it's not**  **11 something that we need to spend our time with,**  **12 if that's accurate.**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **14 Lubliner. Perhaps, and my concern isn't**  **15 necessarily the focus on the grading as it is**  **16 do we have an installation procedure in the**  **17 Quality Assurance Plan or the DAPE approved**  **18 manual that does the specifics of installing**  **19 the installation correctly.**  **20 That could be using a grading**  **21 scale or just specificity in the QA Plan. So**  **22 perhaps what we want to do is leave it in, but** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 just call it Insulation Installation QA and**  **2 that would allow us to discuss grading and**  **3 other approaches that --**  **4 MEMBER SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **5 You know, again, I think insulation**  **6 installation is in the IECC. Grading is not**  **7 in the IECC, so that's a reason why it was**  **8 struck, not because we're not going to focus**  **9 on insulation installation, that's one of the**  **10 mandatory grades.**  **11 Now as, you know, and again going**  **12 into the execution of it, you know, in the**  **13 plant, that is probably outside of the scope**  **14 of this group at this time.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so if QA --**  **16 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter.**  **18 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I was just**  **19 going to note I mean if you read air barrier**  **20 and insulation installation under Table**  **21 402.411, I mean it basically defines Grade 1.**  **22 They're just not using RESNET's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 grading system, so, you know, to achieve that**  **2 is going to require definition and if we're**  **3 just following the language in that table**  **4 that's fine, but I certainly think it needs to**  **5 be included.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so is**  **7 everyone okay with the modification of**  **8 Insulation Installation QA? Okay. Manny?**  **9 MEMBER SANTANA: Yes, the QA is**  **10 where I think we're getting a little bit off**  **11 the rails, you know, because and that, you**  **12 know, although that's very concerning to me as**  **13 well is how this is going to be implemented in**  **14 the plant, but if we start getting into that**  **15 I think it could just help to convolute the**  **16 issues.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. David?**  **18 MEMBER TOMPOS: Can I just make**  **19 the suggestion just to, just insulation**  **20 installation I think is all we need, so we can**  **21 talk about how we need to do that and I think**  **22 that will clear up everything and we can move** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 on.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let me**  **3 see thumbs on that.**  **4 MEMBER SANTANA: Parentheses**  **5 mandatory on that?**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, yes, okay, yes.**  **7 All right we'll clean up the strike through,**  **8 but okay. Everyone good with that? Okay.**  **9 All right so then let's go back to Number 3,**  **10 Finance.**  **11 All right, so what is within our**  **12 scope here, either things that could be**  **13 cleaned up or things that need to be cleared**  **14 up?**  **15 MEMBER ROY: It's Robin. We need**  **16 to add resale, what was it, resale recapture**  **17 from first buyer.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So we could**  **19 make it a child of that you said?**  **20 MR. BANTLE: Oh, I thought we just**  **21 had -- Are they two different things?**  **22 MEMBER EPPERSON: Stacy, here. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think they're two different things.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: As its own number**  **3 not a subpart?**  **4 MEMBER EPPERSON: I believe it's**  **5 more appropriate.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: That's the nice**  **8 thing about this, right, we could see what it**  **9 looks like, if it doesn't work we'll move it**  **10 back right. Okay, any other cleanups here?**  **11 MEMBER EPPERSON: I'm struggling**  **12 with 3.2. Looking back at it, maybe hearing**  **13 from the group, I don't, I think it's outside**  **14 our scope to be looking at HUD grants and**  **15 other financing and something that says et**  **16 cetera and other.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so you're**  **18 just saying that that whole 3.2 was probably**  **19 out of our scope?**  **20 MEMBER EPPERSON: That's my --**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: 3.23.**  **22 MEMBER EPPERSON: No, the other --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. BANTLE: 3.23, these three?**  **2 MEMBER EPPERSON: Yes.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So let's put**  **4 a strike through on that and see if everyone's**  **5 okay with that. Yes, go ahead and put on the**  **6 other as well.**  **7 MEMBER EPPERSON: I think you can**  **8 take other if others agree.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Was that cash? Was**  **10 other meaning cash?**  **11 MEMBER EPPERSON: We could look to**  **12 get an estimate as the percentage of the**  **13 marketplace in cash. We understand**  **14 anecdotally it's significant these days.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so like**  **16 that?**  **17 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Peter?**  **19 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sorry, I was**  **20 just trying to get unmuted. You know, this is**  **21 very unique and I'll admit that, but Vermont,**  **22 as a result of Tropical Storm Irene, we had 15** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 percent of our housing stock qualify for FEMA**  **2 assistance.**  **3 Excuse me, let me rephrase that.**  **4 That 15 percent of the housing stock that did**  **5 qualify for FEMA in Tropical Storm Irene were**  **6 mobile homes or manufactured housing, which is**  **7 only 7 percent of our housing stock.**  **8 So one of our Senators passed**  **9 through legislation and a mobile home tax**  **10 credit, replacement tax credit, and $35,000**  **11 for homes in parks.**  **12 So just the idea that, you know,**  **13 that's something that we see as critical in**  **14 moving better manufactured housing forward as**  **15 an up front subsidy and in this case this**  **16 mobile home replacement tax credit has been**  **17 really valuable in getting better homes out**  **18 there to replace, in particular, our pre-HUD**  **19 homes.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Wait, what's this**  **21 committee going to do with that?**  **22 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's a really** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 good question, but I just wanted to, with the**  **2 idea that, you know, we're looking at**  **3 conventional mortgages as being a possibility,**  **4 finding out what percent are actually using**  **5 conventional mortgages, I would be interested**  **6 in finding out what other opportunities are**  **7 out there, grants for instance, or tax credits**  **8 that are offsetting the incremental cost**  **9 currently so we can factor that in.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Mark?**  **11 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR.**  **12 It's interesting and anecdotally it would be**  **13 good to know, but I just don't see where that**  **14 impacts what we're doing here in terms of what**  **15 --**  **16 COURT REPORTER: Do you have your**  **17 microphone on? I can get you a little bit.**  **18 MEMBER WEISS: Yes. Okay, I just**  **19 don't see where that impacts what we're doing**  **20 in terms of putting together a recommendation**  **21 for a standard that goes indefinitely into**  **22 time when you're dealing with these targeted** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 types of programs that might also be time**  **2 limited.**  **3 I just don't see where that has**  **4 enough of an impact to really factor into**  **5 this.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner.**  **8 I think that what I was thinking about when I**  **9 was saying financing was innovative financing.**  **10 It's stuff that Peter's done, things that our**  **11 utilities have done, and I don't see that we**  **12 would include those in the cost effectiveness**  **13 analysis.**  **14 I want to be clear, you know,**  **15 we're not going to make the case that, you**  **16 know, we're going to buy down the incremental**  **17 cost because these things exist in certain**  **18 areas of the country.**  **19 But I do think it's interesting,**  **20 particularly if we're going to have some**  **21 preamble that comes with this recommendation,**  **22 that we explore and identify where the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 innovative financing opportunities either that**  **2 exist now or could exist or come back like tax**  **3 credits or utility and such.**  **4 I think it would be important to**  **5 have a group that could kind of brainstorm if**  **6 time permits. It wouldn't be clearly a**  **7 priority of the mission here, which is really**  **8 looking at the economic analysis and stuff.**  **9 But I do think there's value, so**  **10 possibly I would throw out innovative**  **11 financing as either a parking lot or something**  **12 that if there was a willingness.**  **13 I do think there's an opportunity**  **14 here for industry, environmental stakeholders,**  **15 consumer stakeholders, to come together and**  **16 make the case in this preamble that HUD and**  **17 other affordable housing, governmental**  **18 entities need to address the important issues**  **19 that we've been grappling with over the**  **20 affordability index.**  **21 So I wouldn't want to discard it,**  **22 but at the same time I wouldn't want to make** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you guys think we'd want to use it in the**  **2 analysis.**  **3 MEMBER DICKENS: Yes, this is**  **4 Ishbel. I agree with that. I've been unmuted**  **5 so I wanted to support what Peter and Michael**  **6 have both been saying.**  **7 I think it is important that we**  **8 look at that because I think that could be a**  **9 potential way of balancing out some of the**  **10 potential increased costs with the incentives**  **11 that we've talked about earlier that might**  **12 apply directly to the manufacturer for**  **13 providing a more energy efficient home.**  **14 So I don't think it should even**  **15 necessarily be in the parking lot, I think I**  **16 would just still include it as part of the**  **17 financing that we look at, because Peter's**  **18 obviously got some examples of that and I**  **19 think Scott from Kentucky, it's an approach**  **20 that they're beginning to look at that I think**  **21 is very creative and I'd like to explore that**  **22 more.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask,**  **2 Ishbel and Peter, is that information that you**  **3 all can send to the Finance Committee so when**  **4 they do their final report they could include**  **5 some of that? I won't say final report, but**  **6 when they report out.**  **7 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, and I have**  **8 a short summary on all different financing**  **9 options, many of which we're implementing in**  **10 Vermont right now.**  **11 And I would just add to what I**  **12 said earlier, you know, you could say the same**  **13 thing, you know, we're talking about, you**  **14 know, developing a code that's going to be in**  **15 place for a very long time and why should we**  **16 be talking about innovative financing**  **17 approaches that may be, you know, not as**  **18 extensively available right now or may or may**  **19 not be available in the future, but that's**  **20 going to be the case with, you know, the**  **21 financing rates associated with chattel loans**  **22 and with conventional mortgages, those are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to change as well.**  **2 Who knows what happens there. I**  **3 mean we've already seen the volatility in that**  **4 financial market, so my suggestion is**  **5 absolutely keep it in and with the idea that,**  **6 you know -- The other thing that I was going**  **7 to mention and I apologize, my mind is kind of**  **8 racing, but, you know, there was a comment**  **9 yesterday, I think it came from Mark that 73**  **10 percent of manufactured housing financing are**  **11 chattel loans and, you know, my experience, at**  **12 least in the Northeast, is only those homes on**  **13 leased land are carrying private property**  **14 chattel loans and the rest have conventional**  **15 mortgages.**  **16 So if only 30 percent of our**  **17 manufactured homes are on leased land I'm just**  **18 wondering if we could really nail down that**  **19 number and I was wondering is that the**  **20 Financing Committee that's working on that and**  **21 I'm not sure if somebody took that on?**  **22 MEMBER EPPERSON: This is Stacy,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Next Step. Yes, I think that's within our**  **2 committee and we have access to that data.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great.**  **4 MEMBER DICKENS: And this is**  **5 Ishbel, and I think I've also seen the same**  **6 statistics that Mark Weiss was commenting. I**  **7 was going to say, had I been unmuted**  **8 yesterday, that it's my understanding that 70**  **9 percent of manufactured homes are purchased**  **10 through chattel loans rather than mortgages.**  **11 And I don't know if Scott's on the**  **12 line and can talk more to the innovative**  **13 program in Kentucky that they're doing as a**  **14 way to help support energy savings there, but**  **15 I think it's something, at least now it's**  **16 information that we can get from him for the**  **17 committee.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and I don't**  **19 think I want to get too deep into this right**  **20 now. What I'm looking for is just to see what**  **21 we need to cleanup and in this case if we're**  **22 leaving innovative financing on the board I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 want to see, Ishbel, if you and Peter wouldn't**  **2 mind getting whatever information you can on**  **3 that to, I'll say Stacy, so that she could**  **4 include that in whenever they report out from**  **5 the Financial Subcommittee.**  **6 MEMBER DICKENS: Yes, and I'm on**  **7 that Subcommittee, too, Javier.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great.**  **9 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'll email**  **10 Stacy.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Perfect. Eric?**  **12 MEMBER LACEY: I'm not on the**  **13 Financial Subcommittee, but I'd also like to**  **14 see the breakdown between new purchases and**  **15 existing, because I hear all these loan**  **16 numbers and figures being thrown around there**  **17 and I keep wondering is this for purchases of**  **18 new units or is this the whole universe of**  **19 units and so on.**  **20 And I'm not asking for an answer**  **21 right now, but I'm just, I think our focus**  **22 here has been on the manufacturing of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 units and if the concern is going to be about**  **2 the initial purchase price then I don't think**  **3 you can include some of those other, some of**  **4 the other populations that are already in**  **5 existing units or purchasing units and so on.**  **6 Anyway, I just want to make sure**  **7 that's one of the factors you are going to**  **8 consider.**  **9 MEMBER WEISS: Yes, I'm Mark**  **10 Weiss. The number that I remember is 76**  **11 percent and that is a Census Bureau number for**  **12 new placements based on the last run that they**  **13 did.**  **14 I don't remember off the top of my**  **15 head that was, but it was fairly recent, but**  **16 that's what we will be looking at is new**  **17 homes, new placements.**  **18 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, and this**  **19 is Peter, and I see that as a huge problem if**  **20 that is indeed the case and that's the**  **21 financing that these homeowners are getting**  **22 and that, boy, if we could change that and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 flip that percentage so 76 percent are**  **2 traditional mortgages that should be a goal**  **3 because that's certainly providing better**  **4 access to good financing to make a huge**  **5 difference.**  **6 MEMBER WEISS: We invite you to**  **7 support us in our efforts with FHA, FHFA, GNMA**  **8 and a bunch of other organizations. Thanks,**  **9 Peter.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: It sounds like**  **11 something that the whole group may be**  **12 interested in.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Just wondered**  **14 are we finished then with financial or is**  **15 there anything more to discuss?**  **16 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just**  **17 "manufacturer" is misspelled in 3.10.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So**  **19 everything else stays on the list?**  **20 Okay, great. Then let's move on**  **21 to Number 4.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: By the way is** 

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### 1 everyone unmuted? Our members in the remote **2 if you want to be unmuted so be it. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: I believe they also**  **4 have the ability to send a message if they 5 need to --**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, okay. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: And so far I'm**  **8 getting a nod that we're good to go. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Good.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so 11 building performance, is there anything that**  **12 needs to be deleted from here or revised? 13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I believe it 15 was like that.**  **16 MEMBER SANTANA: Same thing for 17 4.7.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, if I remember 19 correctly there was some debate as to where**  **20 that should've gone and so to expedite it we 21 just copied and pasted it in both so that way**  **22 we made sure that we covered it.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Yes. Yes, I think, I mean if**  **2 we're going to leave it on Number 2 I think**  **3 it's okay to leave it on four, once it's dealt**  **4 with it dealt with regardless of which place**  **5 it is right now.**  **6 MEMBER SANTANA: I think we can**  **7 scratch 4.3 because that's what 4.7 is.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Everyone good**  **9 with that?**  **10 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And 4.4 for**  **11 that matter.**  **12 MEMBER SANTANA: 4.4 as well.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Great, okay. What**  **14 else? Yes?**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner.**  **16 I just, a scope and question on acoustics**  **17 because I heard we were talking about fan**  **18 mechanical noise, but on the other side of the**  **19 spectrum one of the things that we hear a lot**  **20 from people who purchased high performance**  **21 manufactured homes is that they're quieter,**  **22 they don't hear the street noise.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The choice of windows, single**  **2 pane, the nice insulated windows, air ceiling,**  **3 so I'm wondering when we talk about acoustics**  **4 do we want to talk about the negatives and the**  **5 positives at all and I don't know how you**  **6 quantify that obviously, but it's a non**  **7 tangible economic benefit, anecdotal economic**  **8 benefit.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: And I would ask is**  **10 that our scope?**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: To the extent**  **12 that acoustics is up there I would want to**  **13 make sure that that's included in the**  **14 discussion, but whether it's our scope or not**  **15 I'll leave to the group.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: I think that might**  **17 be --**  **18 MEMBER ROY: It's sort of our**  **19 scope in the same way that we appreciate the**  **20 higher amenity value that comes with a vaulted**  **21 ceiling, you know, if it's something which**  **22 consumers value then I guess it is, you know,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what's the cost impact and the slight offset**  **2 on the cost of a window perhaps if you**  **3 quantify it.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, it seems like**  **5 that would be a by-product, right, that if you**  **6 get the higher grade windows you're probably**  **7 going to hit two birds with one stone there,**  **8 correct?**  **9 All right. Manny?**  **10 MEMBER ROY: I don't know to the**  **11 extent the manufacturers and the retailers are**  **12 using that as a selling point now, so it's**  **13 hard to see the extent to which it is a highly**  **14 valued consumer attribute.**  **15 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss. It**  **16 seems like kind of potentially a long alley of**  **17 only tangential relevance at best.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right,**  **19 suggestion, leave it on for now, we'll see how**  **20 deep we need to go if at all. Is everyone**  **21 okay with that. Okay. Any other cleanup?**  **22 MEMBER SANTANA: This is Manny.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes?**  **2 MEMBER SANTANA: 4.8 is, that was,**  **3 I think that was Kevin's suggestion, he's not**  **4 here, or Keith's suggestion. I don't know**  **5 that this was in our scope either. I mean if**  **6 it isn't in the IECC now, you know, I think to**  **7 striking that.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Is everyone good**  **9 with striking --**  **10 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Peter?**  **12 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well I just**  **13 think that for instance not having the full R**  **14 value of your slope ceiling assembly over the**  **15 exterior wall, which leads to significant ice**  **16 damming in the Northeast and then compromised**  **17 shingles, leakage, and all sorts of things.**  **18 I mean I've seen windows broken**  **19 because of poor overhang detail, so certainly**  **20 durability is associated with the thermal**  **21 envelope that we're discussing.**  **22 So if it is just left there to** 

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### 1 help support the argument for better thermal **2 envelopes I'm in support of leaving it. 3 MEMBER SANTANA: I don't know if,**  **4 I guess I don't see the benefit to having 5 items that describe fringe benefits in there,**  **6 but, you know, we have acoustics, it wouldn't 7 hurt to leave it in there for another round.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that something 9 also that the Mandatory Committee would be**  **10 exploring? 11 Okay.**  **12 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, I think 13 that there are different issues associated**  **14 with durability. There's a lot of them and 15 they vary by climate zone and the approach**  **16 materials that manufacturers take in the 17 assistance integration of the systems.**  **18 I think it's important that we 19 discuss what the ramifications on the energy**  **20 code change have on durability. So having a 21 dialogue is useful, but it really won't play**  **22 in too much to the financial analysis.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It'll be, again, an economic**  **2 intangible, either a negative or a positive.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Manny?**  **4 MEMBER SANTANA: Like one of those**  **5 items where you get peripheral benefit, just**  **6 the same as you get better acoustics when you**  **7 have better, you know, windows, but it isn't**  **8 anything we're going to specifically look at**  **9 because it isn't anything that's specifically**  **10 in the IECC.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's do this then,**  **12 let's take acoustics and durability and let's**  **13 just move them towards the bottom of the list.**  **14 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And comfort.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right, so**  **16 is that it for Number 4?**  **17 MEMBER SANTANA: Energy**  **18 consumption is a little general. I mean isn't**  **19 that the point of this entire exercise?**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, so a bit**  **21 redundant there.**  **22 MEMBER SANTANA: A little bit.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Everyone okay**  **2 with striking that? Just for the sake of**  **3 redundancy that's our mission right?**  **4 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Forgive me,**  **5 this may be somewhere else, this is Peter, but**  **6 duct tightness right alongside whole house**  **7 tightness as building performance?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, okay, what**  **9 about it?**  **10 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm sorry.**  **11 I had just said that is duct tightness missing**  **12 or is that called out under equipment? Should**  **13 it be somewhere and it's not? I see ducts**  **14 there, but --**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, if you look**  **16 under --**  **17 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- performance**  **18 certainly --**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you see 1.2?**  **20 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that okay there?**  **22 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's fine as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 long as it's focused on, it's just as**  **2 important as whole house tightness.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I don't think**  **4 we've put any value on any these. We're just**  **5 trying to identify what are the issues. All**  **6 right, and then Number 5. I'm sorry, was that**  **7 it for four? Okay to move to five?**  **8 I think this is sort of something**  **9 we've been --**  **10 MEMBER KESSLER: This is Bert. I**  **11 --**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, go ahead.**  **13 MEMBER KESSLER: I've got a**  **14 question to Joe and DOE. Is it the intent to**  **15 replace all of the current thermal**  **16 requirements in the HUD code with whatever we**  **17 come up with?**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I think that**  **19 would be the case. That's the --**  **20 MEMBER KESSLER: Okay, good.**  **21 Because I was a little bit concerned about our**  **22 discussion about the prescriptive requirements** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and, you know, we had comments like Uos,**  **2 whatever it is. And we don't have to worry**  **3 about compression. All of those things are**  **4 now covered in the HUD code.**  **5 MEMBER SANTANA: You know, I think**  **6 this is a, Manny again, that's another one of**  **7 those gorillas that are in the room as well,**  **8 you know, that we discuss but we don't know**  **9 how this thing's going to be enforced and**  **10 whether HUD is going to have to adopt whatever**  **11 DOE comes out with or whether DOE's going to**  **12 have a parallel enforcement arm that inspects**  **13 just energy.**  **14 I think that was, we were told in**  **15 the first meeting that we can't worry about**  **16 it. Because we don't know how it's going to**  **17 play out.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right, the**  **19 scope of this --**  **20 MEMBER SANTANA: Now, that's very**  **21 important to us. Because how that plays in,**  **22 you know, that's how we're regulating, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it's going to have an impact on cost.**  **2 It'll have an impact on execution,**  **3 it's going to have an impact on everything.**  **4 I mean, but if you don't know what it is, I**  **5 don't know if it would help to speculate.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So the**  **7 ASRAC charter is just the standard setting,**  **8 right? That's what they've asked this group**  **9 for. But as we said at the first meeting,**  **10 ASRAC would consider any recommendation you**  **11 have for continuing this, to look at the other**  **12 items to implement this, this standard.**  **13 So I would recommend, you know,**  **14 and I think this was said the first day, that**  **15 this committee would recommend to ASRAC**  **16 continuing this past the deadline to work on**  **17 issues like enforcement or other items that**  **18 they come up with.**  **19 Because there may be some need**  **20 that, you know, you need training, help**  **21 training, you know, people on how to install**  **22 things better because of this or education** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 comes out of this. And that's another thing**  **2 this group can work on and make**  **3 recommendations to ASRAC for.**  **4 I mean, in Eric's prescriptive or**  **5 description of the paths, he had the one path**  **6 that said REScheck would have to be revised to**  **7 look at manufactured housing. So that would**  **8 be a recommendation that this group would make**  **9 to ASRAC, right?**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: So then as far as**  **11 going forward on Number 5, is this a next step**  **12 that is taken out of the scope of this**  **13 committee, but it's a next step issue? And if**  **14 so, do we strike it?**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: I wanted to ask**  **16 Emanuel, isn't it one of the considerations in**  **17 your term sheet?**  **18 MEMBER LEVY: I think this,**  **19 actually I'm just thinking about whether this**  **20 is the right way to orient the section. But**  **21 obviously it's part of what we're talking**  **22 about.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think actually this section's**  **2 about compliance. And maybe a subsection of**  **3 compliance would be method. And those would**  **4 be the methods that Eric laid out as the**  **5 methods of compliance.**  **6 And then there would be**  **7 verification, which would be field or factory**  **8 testing. So I would rethink this section a**  **9 little bit being entirely about the method of**  **10 compliance, demonstrating compliance, and**  **11 conform it that way.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, then what**  **13 you're saying is off of compliance we'd move**  **14 field versus factory performance testing off**  **15 of 5.1?**  **16 MEMBER LEVY: Performance and**  **17 prescriptive are types of compliance. So**  **18 compliance would be five. And --**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: And we can move that**  **20 numbering, so --**  **21 MEMBER LEVY: Right. See, I would**  **22 have suggested 8.1 be method. And then the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 subsections to that would be Uo, UA,**  **2 performance, whatever those are, the various**  **3 methods of compliance, just kind of conforming**  **4 now the discussion to what we talked about**  **5 earlier. The method is the technique, so the**  **6 other part of, so I would take out the word**  **7 field there.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: You know, do you see**  **9 that little squiggly that you just had? Go**  **10 back over the dots, you know, hit that. Oh,**  **11 wait a second, then undo.**  **12 MR. BANTLE: It just deletes**  **13 everything to the right of it.**  **14 MEMBER LEVY: And the other,**  **15 again, I'm not sure this is totally making**  **16 sense, but 8.2 would be verification. And**  **17 that's where you would talk about field or**  **18 site --**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Field or site?**  **20 MEMBER LEVY: Testing. Field or**  **21 plant, field or, yes, plant or field.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so with that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 up there, how do we clean up five then?**  **2 MEMBER LEVY: Delete it.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Delete it?**  **4 MEMBER SANTANA: Well, not**  **5 exactly, because, you know, part of it applies**  **6 to both, you know, when we first started it**  **7 was suggested that we have a performance**  **8 approach. But now we have performance and**  **9 prescriptive. So we have performance dash --**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: No, go back up. Go**  **11 back to eight.**  **12 MEMBER SANTANA: That's the third**  **13 case, yes.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Okay. So with**  **15 those components captured in our 8.1 that**  **16 Manny was talking about, so now then do we**  **17 delete five? Waiting, Dave.**  **18 MEMBER TOMPOS: Well, I can't**  **19 believe Michael hasn't spoken up on energy**  **20 labeling yet, not wanting to delete that.**  **21 I hate to see it being deleted. I**  **22 don't know if we can make it a requirement?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But I think there's some benefit to maybe**  **2 keeping it in the conversation.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So like**  **4 make that appear off by itself?**  **5 MEMBER SANTANA: I think it's**  **6 included in eight. Manny, I think it's**  **7 included in eight, because you're going to**  **8 have to have some kind of label.**  **9 And the label's going to have to**  **10 reflect what method was used. And so the**  **11 method is going to dictate how you verify.**  **12 So, you know, it's harder --**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes, it's Mike**  **14 Lubliner. I mean, to address your comment,**  **15 yes, I don't really care where we put it as**  **16 long as it's in there.**  **17 And specifically, when we talk**  **18 about energy labeling, we're thinking labeling**  **19 that's providing the consumer with information**  **20 and also labeling to reinvent the heating**  **21 certificate that's there now that would**  **22 provide the after-market heating contractor** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the right information to size the air**  **2 conditioner.**  **3 So, you know, you'd have energy**  **4 labeling, and then a sub-section might be**  **5 consumer education and HVAC as two areas where**  **6 there's distinct goals that I have, at least,**  **7 for wanting labeling to address.**  **8 MEMBER SANTANA: Well, you know,**  **9 there's going to be quite a few, you know.**  **10 Because there's, you know, along with this**  **11 you're going to have the label that goes with**  **12 the house, that describes how the house is**  **13 built.**  **14 You're going to have the one that,**  **15 you know, explains how the whole house**  **16 ventilation works. You're going to have the**  **17 one that explains what kind of insulation was**  **18 installed. You know, so I think just saying**  **19 energy labeling, that should include them all.**  **20 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. This is**  **21 Mike Lubliner.**  **22 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And this is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Peter.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter, and**  **3 then we'll get Michael. Go ahead.**  **4 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just further,**  **5 with regards to energy labeling and the**  **6 importance of this is, having just sat through**  **7 an appraisal education class on the green and**  **8 energy efficient addendum for any home built**  **9 beyond typical code, is that the appraiser's**  **10 looking in the electrical panel to identify**  **11 any energy features in the home that they**  **12 would utilize to fill out that form which**  **13 would then turn into additional value on that**  **14 appraisal, which obviously is going to help**  **15 with financing and, of course, resale down the**  **16 road.**  **17 So energy labeling and then making**  **18 sure that that's incorporated into the**  **19 standard, I think, is critical moving forward**  **20 for a number of reasons.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **22 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'd support** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that. We have probably over 100,000 homes with**  **2 labels that give the nominal R-value and that**  **3 the home complies with our program, Energy**  **4 Star, or the other programs we've had over the**  **5 years.**  **6 And it says explicitly this home**  **7 may qualify for an energy efficient mortgage.**  **8 That's had value in all those homes over the**  **9 years.**  **10 We see in the Nickel One ads and**  **11 different sales of homes in the newspaper,**  **12 they'll advertise Energy Star manufactured**  **13 home. That's one of the things they'll**  **14 feature in the ad. And they have like eight**  **15 words. And one of them says Energy Star.**  **16 So I would think that it's**  **17 important for us to come up with a label that**  **18 provides consumer education, provides HVAC**  **19 precedent education, and then it provides, you**  **20 know, the education here for the lender or the**  **21 appraiser, and I'll shut up --**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Just let me step in**  **2 here real quick -- this is Joe Hagerman, DOE**  **3 -- and just say, you know, everybody knows**  **4 there's a lot of red tape in DC, so I'm going**  **5 to preface what I say with that.**  **6 Now traditionally, DOE doesn't**  **7 have the authority to issue labels, right, is**  **8 my understanding. Kavita and I are going to**  **9 run to ground with this issue. I think it**  **10 should stay up here for now.**  **11 Typically, the FDC labels the**  **12 appliances that are sold. We provide data to**  **13 the FDC, and that's how they generate the**  **14 labels. But there is some division where we**  **15 can't label, I do believe. But we're going to**  **16 run this to the ground.**  **17 So my advice is let us take this**  **18 on to see what we can and can't do. And, you**  **19 know, if we need to pull in FDC, let's pull in**  **20 FDC. Let us do our homework before we go any**  **21 farther with this. And let's just keep it on**  **22 there.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Thanks. We'll add a**  **2 note under energy labeling that OGC will**  **3 review. Okay.**  **4 MEMBER LEVY: Could you add this**  **5 to 4.1 prescriptive?**  **6 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And this is**  **7 Peter. When we're ready to change course, I**  **8 have one other comment and potential line**  **9 item.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let**  **11 me go back then. With the cleanup that we had**  **12 under what's now four, do we delete the**  **13 previous one that we're looking at, which is**  **14 now six?**  **15 Everyone good with that? Let me**  **16 see a show of thumbs. All right, let's strike**  **17 that one. Okay, Peter, what did you have?**  **18 I'm sorry, Peter, is there something in**  **19 regards to the map, or was there a different**  **20 issue?**  **21 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, it's the**  **22 map. And just actually looking at the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Research Alliance website previously, looking**  **2 at Frost Free Foundation details and then**  **3 actually looking at the regions in the U.S.**  **4 for, you know, where Frost Free Foundation**  **5 should be incorporated, I know at least in my**  **6 climate region, having un-frost protected**  **7 connections to the ground leads to all sorts**  **8 of energy efficiency, durability, and**  **9 performance issues with doors no longer**  **10 opening and closing, windows no longer opening**  **11 and closing and certainly additional air**  **12 leakage.**  **13 And of course, this is very**  **14 specific to manufactured housing, how it's**  **15 delivered. And I was just wondering if we**  **16 felt as though that should be explored.**  **17 Because, you know, there are some**  **18 simple strategies to improve the way these**  **19 homes are set, particularly if, you know, the**  **20 areas are similar to Vermont where these homes**  **21 are rarely ever moved. So putting them on**  **22 permanent frost-protected foundations would be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a big benefit.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **3 MEMBER TOMPOS: I want to ask DOE,**  **4 does our scope include just the home? Or does**  **5 it include the installation?**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: It's just the home.**  **7 MEMBER TOMPOS: So does that mean**  **8 that, not that I don't agree that Peter's**  **9 point is important, but I just want to make**  **10 sure that it's inside our scope.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: It's just the home**  **12 that's shipped from the manufacturers.**  **13 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So who would**  **14 deal with that then?**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you know, does**  **16 anyone know?**  **17 MEMBER TOMPOS: Well, I think that**  **18 would be something the MHCC would deal with**  **19 and local jurisdiction. But specifically, I'd**  **20 start with MHCC.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So then let's**  **22 look at Number 7. I think that's kind of as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we go along, right? I don't think there's**  **2 anything that really needs to be modified**  **3 here, unless you all see something. It's**  **4 something we're going to be discussing, right,**  **5 I think all throughout.**  **6 Okay. Number 8? And we're doing**  **7 that as we go along as well, correct? Okay.**  **8 I think that's it. Yes, Mark?**  **9 MEMBER WEISS: Mark Weiss. As**  **10 much as I really hate to do this, can we just**  **11 go back to three for a second, financial?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **13 MEMBER WEISS: And I raise this**  **14 more, I guess, as a question. Looking at the**  **15 statute, it refers specifically to, it says**  **16 total life cycle construction and operating**  **17 costs.**  **18 And we've been doing most of our**  **19 talking about life cycle operating costs. But**  **20 I'm wondering if somewhere up there we should**  **21 specifically reference construction cost.**  **22 I know we have competitiveness** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 which addresses, to some extent, the**  **2 disparities that will happen between larger**  **3 and smaller manufacturers. But I think this**  **4 more concretely addresses some of those issues**  **5 and others.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to put**  **7 that as an offshoot, as a child of**  **8 competitiveness construction costs?**  **9 MEMBER WEISS: No. I think it's**  **10 in the statute. We should at least reflect it**  **11 somewhere in here. I'd just say construction**  **12 cost is a separate item.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, Eric?**  **14 MEMBER LACEY: I mean, I agree**  **15 that we should repeat all the language in the**  **16 statute. But I thought total cost of**  **17 ownership was intended to cover that.**  **18 Is this something, I mean, that**  **19 includes construction costs, replacement**  **20 costs, operating costs and everything. Does**  **21 that not cover what you're talking about**  **22 there?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It's 3.8.2. It's under the**  **2 affordability discussion. I thought we'd kind**  **3 of incorporated the construction, replacement**  **4 costs, operating costs, everything in that one**  **5 thing.**  **6 And construction costs, calling it**  **7 out separately, I'm not sure that it's quite**  **8 as useful as including it up in the**  **9 affordability analysis. But I'm interested.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: I guess the**  **11 clarification is how does that vary from**  **12 purchase price?**  **13 MEMBER WEISS: Purchase price is**  **14 the end price to the consumer. Construction**  **15 cost goes to the compliance costs on the part**  **16 of the manufacturer and potential disparities.**  **17 You know, again, I'm simply**  **18 suggesting that, because it's terminology used**  **19 in the statute. And I just want to make sure**  **20 that we address that as an issue.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: And so do we put it**  **22 under affordability or still keep it separate?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROY: How about we put it**  **2 under 3.8.3. And then we'd have operation,**  **3 maintenance and purchase, including**  **4 construction and other installation costs,**  **5 construction, installation and other purchase**  **6 costs.**  **7 MEMBER WEISS: No. It's not that.**  **8 You can say and/or, I wouldn't say and/or**  **9 purchase, I would --**  **10 MEMBER ROY: No, no. And --**  **11 MEMBER WEISS: Operation --**  **12 MEMBER ROY: Why don't we run it**  **13 together with operation, maintenance,**  **14 construction cost. No, I'm not sure about**  **15 that.**  **16 MEMBER WEISS: I would separate**  **17 each one of them out.**  **18 MEMBER ROY: It should go**  **19 somewhere up there.**  **20 MEMBER WEISS: I would separate**  **21 each one of them out, operation, maintenance**  **22 --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROY: Operation, comma --**  **2 MEMBER WEISS: Operation/**  **3 maintenance, purchase price, and construction**  **4 costs, three separate ones?**  **5 MEMBER ROY: That sounds fine.**  **6 That's a good place.**  **7 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm still not**  **8 sure how construction costs would be separate**  **9 from total cost of ownership unless the**  **10 manufacturer was going to absorb the**  **11 incremental costs and not pass it along to the**  **12 buyer. It seems redundant.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: This is, just a**  **14 reminder to everyone, this is just a map,**  **15 right, to help us make sure that we don't miss**  **16 anything, that we could use this to hopefully**  **17 review and construct the term sheet. So**  **18 whether we cover it in either one of those**  **19 locations, I guess as long as it's being**  **20 considered and discussed --**  **21 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I**  **22 support what Mark's suggesting here, if only** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because it is in the legislation. It's nice**  **2 to be firm and have that reminder that we**  **3 should try to speak to the language of the**  **4 legislation.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **6 MEMBER ROY: Including other**  **7 places. So it's just a reminder up there.**  **8 I'd like to see it somehow.**  **9 MEMBER WEISS: And it might meld**  **10 into something else. But since it's in the**  **11 statute, I think we should at least kind of --**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: I didn't want to**  **13 argue whether it should be as part of 3.8.2 or**  **14 3.8.3, as long as it's up there, right, and we**  **15 can address it. Michael?**  **16 MEMBER LUBLINER: I was just going**  **17 to make a suggestion of the 3.8.4 which would**  **18 be construction costs. And what I was**  **19 understanding that is, it's the implications**  **20 on sales is what you were, is that what, the**  **21 sales implication that having a higher**  **22 construction cost is an implication.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It's reducing your sales, you**  **2 know, it's the price elasticity step. So if**  **3 we just had it as construction costs, and then**  **4 one of the things would be price elasticity.**  **5 But I think we talk about it somewhere else in**  **6 there. So as long as it gets discussed --**  **7 MEMBER WEISS: I don't want to**  **8 overdo this. I just wonder if there's a**  **9 placeholder so that we address that part of**  **10 the statute.**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: So maybe --**  **12 MEMBER WEISS: -- somehow. Just**  **13 put them in there. Okay.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right. I**  **15 want to, I know that Manny you have to leave**  **16 at 4:00.**  **17 And I'd like for, well, while we**  **18 have him and some of the other committee**  **19 members, especially the folks on the phone as**  **20 well, what are our next steps? I mean, what**  **21 are we going to be doing here. Do we have**  **22 enough information to have two full days of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 meetings?**  **2 As this was progressing, some of**  **3 the ideas that we were throwing around as**  **4 facilitators would be to still keep the ninth**  **5 and the tenth blocked off for us to use but**  **6 just use them a little different.**  **7 Where on the ninth, hopefully the**  **8 subcommittees are doing work apart from that,**  **9 but the subcommittees could use the ninth to**  **10 really nail down some of the information that**  **11 we're going to need.**  **12 And then on the tenth, we'll still**  **13 be here. So the local folks could come here**  **14 if they would like to. And we still have the**  **15 Webinar offerings.**  **16 And additionally, what we could do**  **17 then is as we get closer, you know, a couple**  **18 of days out, depending on what information's**  **19 been sent out, some of the feedback that we're**  **20 getting from the folks, we'll tighten up the**  **21 agenda for the 10th. And we'll send it out a**  **22 couple of days in advance, depending on how** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 much progress you make between now and then.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: And not just local**  **3 folks, but if other people do want to come in,**  **4 we will be here on the tenth. We'll be here,**  **5 so you're welcome to be here. But we also do**  **6 have a GoToMeeting, so we'll have that as**  **7 well. And on the ninth, we intend to also do**  **8 some work.**  **9 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I**  **10 find GoToMeeting, I don't know how you feel,**  **11 it's out there, Ishbel, and Peter and Bert,**  **12 but I don't think it's remotely as good trying**  **13 to have a conversation about so many of these**  **14 things.**  **15 And, Mark, as you've seen from**  **16 both sides now, I can't believe it's remotely**  **17 as good to have these conversations on the**  **18 phone and having to have somebody read off an**  **19 email or something. It seems silly.**  **20 I also recall, just a day ago,**  **21 folks saying there was not much to do today**  **22 and that we should postpone Friday. And until** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Luby said that he's going to miss his**  **2 daughter's graduation anyway, we were going to**  **3 go ahead and postpone Friday until some other**  **4 year.**  **5 I think today was a phenomenally**  **6 productive day. We pushed through so many**  **7 things that we had to deal with at some point.**  **8 We actually filled out a lot of documents.**  **9 I think between now and the ninth,**  **10 we might come to the right answers. But with**  **11 the genius work, and I keep using that word**  **12 for you guys, PNNL, and Navigant and DOE, you**  **13 will fill out a lot of these documents which**  **14 we may or may not agree with in detail. But**  **15 you will have a lot of structure and a lot of**  **16 numbers in there that we will then be**  **17 reporting back, and we will be done.**  **18 Stacy, and Mark, and I, and the**  **19 others and Ishbel will not be done coming up**  **20 with all those finance bits to throw in. But**  **21 we'll have a lot to talk about in a meaningful**  **22 way on the ninth.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I don't see a benefit in pushing**  **2 this stuff off. All it does is it slows us**  **3 down from doing what turned out to be**  **4 incredibly productive, not necessarily that**  **5 much fun. Although I've got to say, I like**  **6 you guys so much, I'm going to miss you in**  **7 October.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, what I'm**  **9 hearing is you want to have two full meetings**  **10 both on the ninth and the tenth. So as I**  **11 said, we've allocated them. Let's get a sense**  **12 of the group.**  **13 MEMBER DICKENS: Yes, this is**  **14 Ishbel. I was going to be doing it by phone**  **15 again. It's not ideal, obviously. But I**  **16 think there is a lot of material there.**  **17 And even if, when we meet on the**  **18 ninth, if we need to break into subcommittees**  **19 to do some work independently of the whole**  **20 group, perhaps that's an option as well.**  **21 But I do think we did set a time.**  **22 I know I'm planning to come out the 22nd and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 23rd. I'll be booking a flight soon, so I**  **2 want to make sure that we're --**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: That's a definite,**  **4 yes, the 22nd and 23rd.**  **5 MEMBER DICKENS: Okay.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: But I'm sorry, go on**  **7 please.**  **8 MEMBER DICKENS: No, no. That's**  **9 all I was going to say, Eileen, just that we**  **10 did commit to these times. And I think we've**  **11 all set them aside. And I think we're using**  **12 them very effectively and very efficiently.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Any other thoughts?**  **14 MEMBER LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **15 Lubliner. Yes, just on a logistical**  **16 suggestion, having been here now and done the**  **17 phone penance, we've got to figure out this**  **18 feedback thing, if there's any way you can**  **19 deal with the technical glitch there.**  **20 Because it's really, there's two**  **21 issues as I recall. One is as you're talking**  **22 you're getting an echo and then the, yes. So** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that's a logistical thing. If you can look**  **2 into it.**  **3 Also on the logistical side, if we**  **4 are going to break down into task groups, we**  **5 need to make sure that we have multiple**  **6 conversations on the technical capability of**  **7 doing that. I don't know how you --**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, space.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: There might be space**  **10 for a conference call.**  **11 MEMBER LUBLINER: Space for a**  **12 conference call, yes.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Because we do have -**  **14 -**  **15 MEMBER LUBLINER: So there's more**  **16 than one conference call going on**  **17 simultaneously.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Because we**  **19 have a room next door. Excuse me?**  **20 (Off the record comments)**  **21 MEMBER LUBLINER: So those are the**  **22 only --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: I'll check, we're**  **2 going to check and see if we can use our**  **3 offices. We have a variety of rooms. So I**  **4 will check on those dates.**  **5 MEMBER LUBLINER: So that's**  **6 excellent. I will not be able to attend,**  **7 physically, the next one. but I will be at**  **8 the final September and the first meeting in**  **9 October. But I want to just thank you guys.**  **10 If I graded you guys against the HUD Consensus**  **11 Committee, it'd be A+.**  **12 (Laughter)**  **13 MEMBER LUBLINER: And I wish the**  **14 credit scores of our clients were that good.**  **15 But no, really, you guys have got it, it's a**  **16 great group to work with. I think we're going**  **17 to get into some more nitty-gritty stuff.**  **18 Thank you.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, as a**  **20 facilitator question then, just logistically,**  **21 so we could explore what options we have for**  **22 you all, most computers nowadays have the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 built in cameras. **2 If we were to do something that 3 involved cameras, would everyone be able to**  **4 access an iPad, a laptop with a camera, a 5 computer with a camera if we needed to?**  **6 And I'm thinking not so much for 7 the folks that can make it, but the folks**  **8 looking at the feedback issue and some of the 9 technology issues that we're experiencing, if**  **10 you have cameras, we might be able to explore 11 some additional options.**  **12 MEMBER ROY: This is Robin. I'd 13 like to --**  **14 (Simultaneous speaking) 15 MEMBER LUTER: Oh, go ahead,**  **16 Peter. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: Rob, go on please.**  **18 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just about the 19 camera.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me? Rob, 21 what did you say. We didn't hear you?**  **22 MEMBER LUTER: I suggested Peter**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 go ahead. And I'll follow Peter.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. Peter?**  **3 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well I was just**  **4 saying that I have a camera and I've joined a**  **5 number of meetings where we video conference**  **6 and that works even better than the**  **7 GoToMeeting just listening and sharing**  **8 documents via the Webinar. So I --**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **10 MEMBER LUTER: My comment was that**  **11 I use GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar quite**  **12 frequently, two or three times a week at**  **13 least. And I find it very effective.**  **14 I've not felt left out in these**  **15 last two days. I've felt like I could comment**  **16 freely. The feedback issue is very**  **17 problematic though. This is the only time**  **18 I've ever experienced this. And I'm really**  **19 not sure why.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Another suggestion**  **21 I heard was --**  **22 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 In the past --**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, sorry. Go on,**  **3 Peter.**  **4 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, I was just**  **5 going to, yes, I was just going to say that**  **6 historically when I've had the feedback issue**  **7 it's been associated with folks not wearing**  **8 headsets and not muting when they're not**  **9 talking.**  **10 And maybe if we just try that**  **11 right now, that might be a solution. If**  **12 everybody has a headset they can plug in and**  **13 then mute themselves and that may resolve it**  **14 right now.**  **15 MEMBER LUTER: That's been my**  **16 practice for the last two days, I have the**  **17 headset in and mute when I'm not talking. And**  **18 it's, for example, right now I'm hearing an**  **19 echo of myself that's totally distracting.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So we're**  **21 going to try something here. Everyone that's**  **22 in the room -- I guess, Eileen, you and I are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the only ones, do you have your mike on?**  **2 Okay. I'm going to mute my mike. And then,**  **3 Peter, go ahead and say something. Peter, go**  **4 ahead and see if you still have the echo.**  **5 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- testing. I**  **6 am not hearing an echo. I'm not sure.**  **7 MEMBER LUTER: I'm hearing an echo**  **8 from Peter.**  **9 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You are?**  **10 MEMBER LUTER: And I'm hearing my**  **11 own voice as well echoing.**  **12 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I hear you**  **13 echoing.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Rob, are you logged**  **15 into the Webinar on your computer with your**  **16 computer speakers and also dialing in with a**  **17 telephone or a cell phone?**  **18 MEMBER LUTER: No. I'm just**  **19 logged in on my laptop and using voice over**  **20 IP.**  **21 MEMBER DRAKE: This is Scott**  **22 Drake. I'm logged in on an iPad.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: And is it okay?**  **2 MEMBER LUTER: I heard an echo**  **3 there.**  **4 MEMBER DRAKE: There's an echo.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So one other**  **6 thing while we're still looking at echos, for**  **7 people who have to fly out, one thought is,**  **8 for the next meeting, have it start on the**  **9 ninth at 9:00 and end at 5:00. But the one on**  **10 Wednesday, maybe start at 8:00 and end at 4:00**  **11 or 3:00. So you can get out, or you can't do**  **12 it?**  **13 MEMBER DICKENS: Well, that would**  **14 mean I'd be starting at 5:00 in the morning.**  **15 MEMBER SANTANA: Is there any way**  **16 that we can meet somewhere else that's not so**  **17 far on the East Coast?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Chicago's a great**  **19 location.**  **20 MEMBER SANTANA: Chicago? Chicago**  **21 or St. Louis?**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, that was a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 little selfish.**  **2 MEMBER SANTANA: Dallas?**  **3 MEMBER LUTER: Chicago works for**  **4 me.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, DOE says it**  **6 can meet wherever. But I don't know. We'll**  **7 --**  **8 (Off the record comments)**  **9 MEMBER DICKENS: How many of us**  **10 are from the West Coast?**  **11 MEMBER TOMPOS: I can do the West**  **12 Coast. Phoenix, beautiful this time of year.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: We have the**  **14 National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden,**  **15 Colorado, which is right at Denver. It's very**  **16 easy to fly into. It's kind of halfway for**  **17 everybody. But that's up to the group to**  **18 decide.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, we lose some**  **20 of our local people.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, so, you know**  **22 what, I don't know. Probably for the next** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 meeting, that would probably be a little to**  **2 tight to change locations. But for future**  **3 ones, after that, so that's something that**  **4 we'll discuss.**  **5 The facilitators, along with Joe,**  **6 will have some discussions on that and see**  **7 what other options there really are. I think**  **8 we need to take Maui off the table.**  **9 MEMBER ROY: Could we commit to**  **10 the 21st, 22nd, whatever that was, to one of**  **11 these, to Chicago or to Denver? That would be**  **12 great if you could do that, sooner rather than**  **13 later.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, --**  **15 MEMBER DICKENS: This is Ishbel.**  **16 I actually want to come to DC on those**  **17 September dates.**  **18 MEMBER LUBLINER: I'm Mike**  **19 Lubliner. And I already planned those dates**  **20 to come to DC. I'm actually bringing my wife**  **21 to build marital bliss from the challenge that**  **22 we had on the last meeting.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, we're all good**  **2 for today, right.**  **3 (Laughter)**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: We can look into**  **5 October 1st and 2nd in Colorado or some place**  **6 else?**  **7 MEMBER LUBLINER: I would like to**  **8 have the last meeting in Colorado in October.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Listen to that, the**  **10 last meeting, right? I mean, we're going to**  **11 get the, we're going to have the term sheet**  **12 wrapped up on the --**  **13 MEMBER ROY: Was that not an**  **14 optional meeting that we had not committed to**  **15 yet? Because we're going to be done in --**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: We may not need it.**  **17 But if we do need it, we could look into**  **18 October 1st and 2nd in Chicago, or Boulder or**  **19 whatever. Let me get a sense of the group.**  **20 I mean, just --**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: So the group is**  **22 saying that for the last meeting that we have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 on the schedule, October 1st and 2nd, to find**  **2 a more centrally located facility.**  **3 MEMBER SANTANA: You know,**  **4 everything's a factor here, airfare, hotels,**  **5 you know, even Louisville, you know, it's very**  **6 cost effective, Texas.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Also our DOE staff,**  **8 can they fly everywhere? Are there, okay.**  **9 Just wanted to check on that score.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: We already checked**  **11 it. This is Joe Hagerman. We already checked**  **12 into this some time ago. Everybody over there**  **13 did raise the flag that October 1st and 2nd**  **14 meeting is a contingency meeting.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: We'd have to get**  **17 approval for ASRAC to extend into the October**  **18 date anyway. So just keep that in mind.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: So we can start**  **21 that process, but let's get some more forward**  **22 momentum.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Off the record comments)**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: It isn't. It's on.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: We were still**  **4 meeting the night that in D.C.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: We're meeting -- Oh,**  **6 for location. Let me ask. Is it too soon to,**  **7 well, somebody already bought tickets for the**  **8 8th and 9th --**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: I have them on the**  **10 10th.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: The problem is**  **12 people haven't bought tickets.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: They haven't bought**  **14 tickets?**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **16 (Off the record comments)**  **17 MEMBER SANTANA: And even if we**  **18 don't meet, he's still going to be here.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, we are**  **20 scheduled for the 9th and 10th here. And we**  **21 are going to do it here. We might, depending**  **22 on the room, we may switch around for those.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We're going to work on the agenda.**  **2 And so we might have an hour or two for**  **3 working groups to get together. And if so,**  **4 we'll have the appropriate rooms for them to**  **5 talk.**  **6 But we are going to go ahead with**  **7 the 9th and 10th. So you can make your ticket**  **8 reservations on that score. Let me ask you**  **9 before Manny heads out. This has been going**  **10 all right so far?**  **11 We haven't cracked the whip yet,**  **12 but we're going to have to move at a, you**  **13 know, a quicker pace. But that means also**  **14 getting the data and getting the analysis.**  **15 We want to thank everybody. And**  **16 if you have anymore legal questions, we**  **17 appreciate General Counsel's office, I can**  **18 understand that office as well. So any other**  **19 comments does anyone have? Yes, Mark?**  **20 MEMBER WEISS: Question, this is**  **21 for Joe. The statute talks about consultation**  **22 with HUD. What is going on with that or the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 plan going forward?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm glad you asked**  **3 that. So Kavita can update you with our**  **4 General Counsel's office's discussion with**  **5 their General Counsel's office.**  **6 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: This is Kavita**  **7 Vaidyanathan. We did have a conversation with**  **8 the General Counsel's office. And we still**  **9 have not defined what consultation is.**  **10 We're still discussing it, because**  **11 we don't have, we can't consult until we have**  **12 something to consult with. And we won't have**  **13 that until a term sheet is given to ASRAC, and**  **14 ASRAC actually gives a term sheet to the**  **15 Secretary.**  **16 So once the Secretary is given a**  **17 term sheet, then DOE has something to consult**  **18 on at that point. So if this committee does**  **19 come up with a term sheet, then it will go to**  **20 ASRAC. And if ASRAC does pass it along to**  **21 DOE, then at that point we'll discuss what**  **22 consultation is.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WEISS: Could you provide**  **2 the committee with the substance of that**  **3 discussion, not now, but I mean going**  **4 forward? In other words, is there something**  **5 in writing you could provide to us that would**  **6 be relevant to that?**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: I think she can**  **8 give updates like this. And everything she**  **9 says is on the record. So that's kind of a**  **10 written update.**  **11 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Yes. I'm happy**  **12 to provide, these are all conversations that**  **13 we've had with the HUD Counsel. So there is**  **14 no written documents we've passed back and**  **15 forth. We've just had telephone**  **16 conversations.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. I can say**  **18 we've been, you know, when we get the**  **19 transcript back, we review it just really**  **20 quickly. And then we push to post as quickly**  **21 as possible, seeing that the meetings are just**  **22 back-to-back, back-to-back. So there's going** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to be typos in that and everything. So just**  **2 bear with us.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: I also want to ask**  **4 about communication between meetings. Anyone,**  **5 would it be fair to say, Joe, if you write,**  **6 we're going to work on an FAQ sheet. And**  **7 anyone who writes something to us will be**  **8 getting it back. We can get it back to**  **9 everyone or to just that person, I guess,**  **10 depending on what they ask.**  **11 Usually what we've done is, if**  **12 somebody's asked for something, we actually**  **13 send the answer to everybody, thinking that it**  **14 might be something of interest to more than**  **15 just one person. But if you say I just want**  **16 you to respond to me, then we'll just do that.**  **17 Joe has said he'll try to get out**  **18 the analysis and I guess the Star, the Energy**  **19 Star analysis as well. And you'll get a lot**  **20 of figures. And I've asked Joe to put it in**  **21 layman's terms as well for those of us who may**  **22 not be as engineering or proficient as others.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So we should have that too. Any other**  **2 comments from, yes, Michael?**  **3 MEMBER LUBLINER: Well, it's back**  **4 to a discussion that Mark had. I had a couple**  **5 of questions. One, I've been communicating**  **6 with some people that work in the factory**  **7 built housing with EPA. They are interested**  **8 in what's going on.**  **9 So if there's a possibility I**  **10 would encourage you, if you haven't, to keep**  **11 them in the loop. And the Government**  **12 Accountability Office which has just recently,**  **13 make sure they're, if possible and**  **14 appropriate, keep them in the loop as well.**  **15 And then finally, last week I was**  **16 made aware of an interpretation on federal**  **17 preemption that HUD legal Counsel made. And**  **18 I wasn't sure if you were aware of that or**  **19 were planning on commenting on it.**  **20 But it has to do with the State of**  **21 Minnesota asking, the IPIA there asking**  **22 clarification as to whether the state could** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 require blower door testing of manufactured**  **2 homes when they're set up in the State of**  **3 Minnesota. This is because all other homes in**  **4 the State of Minnesota are required to be**  **5 blower door tested when they're built.**  **6 And there was a legal**  **7 interpretation that was shared with everyone**  **8 from the HUD Council on that. And I would**  **9 encourage you to look at that legal**  **10 interpretation and make a call as to whether**  **11 you concur. Because it does overlap in**  **12 responsibilities, I believe. Thank you.**  **13 MEMBER WEISS: It's just Mark**  **14 Weiss. For me, I don't think that's**  **15 appropriate. Because there was a**  **16 determination by HUD OGC as to the statute**  **17 they're operating under which is the**  **18 Manufactured Housing Construction and Safety**  **19 Standards Act which is not a statute that DOE**  **20 is enforcing.**  **21 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: We'd be happy**  **22 to look at different sources of information.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But we would not comment on another agency's**  **2 actions taken for interpreting their own**  **3 statutes.**  **4 So if HUD interpreted its own**  **5 statute on this issue, we wouldn't provide any**  **6 comments. But if it gives us some more**  **7 information on the issue overall, we're happy**  **8 to look at any information.**  **9 MEMBER LUBLINER: Yes. If it's**  **10 not appropriate, I don't want to ask you to do**  **11 something that's legally inappropriate but at**  **12 least put it on your radar screen to look and**  **13 review. Thank you.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you, Michael.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: When Emanuel**  **16 presented his proposed framework for**  **17 developing a term sheet, there were a number**  **18 of other topics on the back that we don't want**  **19 to get, we'll need to deal with them as well,**  **20 whole house tightness, ventilation**  **21 requirements, duct system tightness,**  **22 performance paths, option, and compliance and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 verification.**  **2 Now to some extant, that's**  **3 subsumed in some of the other things that have**  **4 been discussed. But let's not lose sight of**  **5 it, because we'll be dealing with that as well**  **6 when we come back. Any comments from Joe,**  **7 please?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: No. I just want to**  **9 say thank you all for your time and hard work.**  **10 I mean, I have a very long list of to-dos and**  **11 action items out of this. So I feel like**  **12 we've made good progress. And I look forward**  **13 to getting you all that information,**  **14 hopefully, by Wednesday of next week. That's**  **15 what I'm trying to target for. So appreciate**  **16 your support and I'm excited about us reaching**  **17 a consensus. We did forget to ask if there's**  **18 any public comment --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: -- from the general**  **21 public.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I looked. And** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 unless somebody's sleeping --**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Is there anybody**  **3 remotely on the line, our public remotely that**  **4 wants to ask a question or make a short**  **5 comment?**  **6 (No audible response)**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Hearing**  **8 nothing, just remember, for everyone's**  **9 benefit, we are holding the meetings here on**  **10 the 9th and 10th from 9:00 to 5:00. If the**  **11 room changes, we will let you know. We will**  **12 also, when you see the agenda in advance, we**  **13 may have an hour or two for subcommittees to**  **14 meet. But we'll talk to you about that. And**  **15 thank you all.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, thank you all.**  **17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **18 matter went off the record at 4:10 p.m.)**  **19 20**  **21 22** 202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 340** A $1,200 149:3 $1,500 149:3,3 $100 197:5 $12,000 197:19 $150 149:6 $200 107:3 149:6 $27,000 152:21 $35,000273:10 $5,00090:7 $500 148:21 $8,000 197:19 a.m 1:11 4:2 113:19,20 ability 11:5 284:4 able25:18 42:7

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This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 382

Manufactured Housing Working Group

US DOE

08-22-14

Washington, DC