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21ST CENTURY CONSERVATION PRACTICES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

THE INTERIOR 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

SEPTEMBER 13, 2016 

Serial No. 114–75 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 


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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MARK WALKER, North Carolina 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

JODY B. HICE, Georgia 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia 

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 

WILL HURD, Texas 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

TED LIEU, California 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 

MARK DeSAULNIER, California 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

JENNIFER HEMINGWAY, Staff Director 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

BILL MCGRATH, Staff Director, Subcommittee on the Interior 

WILLIE MARX, Clerk 


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SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE INTERIOR

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS Wyoming, Chairman 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

KEN BUCK, Colorado, Vice Chair 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan, Ranking 

Member 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on September 13, 2016 ..................................................................... 1 

WITNESSES 

Ms. Judith D. Schwartz, Author 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 5 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 8 

Mr. Byron Shelton 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 12 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 14 


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21ST CENTURY CONSERVATION PRACTICES 

Tuesday, September 13, 2016 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE INTERIOR, 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:50 p.m., in Room 

2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Cynthia M. Lummis 

[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Lummis, Buck, Palmer and Lawrence. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. The Subcommittee on the Interior of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform will come to order. 

This hearing is somewhat unique, in that it’s totally about the future, the government reform component of OGR’s responsibility. 

In order to set the stage for this discussion, I want to explain 

why the subject is so important to me and why it should be important to Congress. Let’s step back into Mr. Peabody’s Way Back Machine and turn the dial to the 1970s. The 1970s were a time of 

major environmental and natural resource lawmaking. The EPA 

was created in 1970; the Clean Water Act was passed in 1972; the 

Endangered Species Act in 1973; and FLPMA, the Federal Land 

Policy Management Act, in 1976. Incidentally, I was in high school 

and college during those years and took classes in both range management and soil science in college. I also had some really bad 

hairdos, but we won’t go there. 

All right. Roughly 40 years have passed. Scientific knowledge has 

grown leaps and bounds. What was settled science back then is 

now very different. Global cooling science from the 1970s is now 

global warming science. We know only one thing for sure: science 

is never settled. 

Range science is among the scientific disciplines that have 

evolved exponentially since I took a range management class in college over 40 years ago. We are going to hear about some of those 

practices today, those modern practices, which were neither contemplated nor accommodated in our 40-year natural resource management statutes. Rules and policies adopted recently in this decade are based on old laws and old science. Some of these rules implement practices that may accelerate desertification. There is a 

better way. 

For the sake of our range health, let’s explore modern soil science 

and grassland health. Modern holistic practices can inform natural 

resource laws, rules, and practices. 99.9 percent of the Bureau of 

Land Management land in the U.S. is in 11 western States. It is 

mostly grassland, a huge carbon sequestration resource. 


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We are grateful today for the testimony of witnesses who can attest to 21st century conservation practices that are restoring health 

to soils and grassland resources. 

I also want to thank Ranking Member Lawrence for this departure from normal hearing processes to view the following excerpt 

from a Ted talk delivered by Allan Savory, a global leader in regenerative land and resource management. Now, Mr. Savory would 

have been here today to testify, but he is with Prince Philip in 

England talking about these very same issues, so he was unable to 

attend. 

But would you please show us his Ted talk? 

Mr. SAVORY. ‘‘Desertification is a fancy word for land that is 

turning to desert, and this happens only when we create too much 

bare ground. There is no other cause. And I intend to focus on most 

of the world’s land that is turning to desert. But I have for you a 

very simple message that offers more hope than you can imagine. 

We have environments where humidity is guaranteed throughout 

the year. On those, it is almost impossible to create vast areas of 

bare ground no matter what you do. Nature covers it up so quickly. 

And we have environments where we have months of humidity followed by months of dryness, and that is where desertification is occurring. 

Fortunately with space technology now, we can look at it from 

space, and when we do, you can see the proportions fairly well. 

Generally what you see in green is not desertifying, and what you 

see in brown is, and these are by far the greatest areas of the 

earth. About two-thirds, I would guess, of the world is desertifying. 

I took this picture in the Tihamah Desert while 25 millimeters, 

that is an inch of rain, was falling. Think of it in terms of drums 

of water each containing 200 liters. 

Over 1,000 drums of water fell on every hectare of that land that 

day. The next day, the land looked like this. Where had that water 

gone? Some of it ran off as flooding, but most of the water that 

soaked into the soil simply evaporated out again, exactly as it does 

in your garden if you leave the soil uncovered. 

Now, because the fate of water and carbon are tied to soil organic 

matter, when we damage soils, you give off carbon, carbon goes 

back to the atmosphere. 

Now, you are told over and over repeatedly that desertification 

is only occurring in arid and semiarid areas of the world and that 

tall grasslands like this one, in high rainfall, are of no consequence, 

but if you do not look at grasslands, but look down into them, you 

find that most of the soil in that grassland that you have just seen 

is bare and covered with a crust of algae, leading to increased runoff and evaporation. That is the cancer of desertification that we 

do not recognize till its terminal form. 

Now, we know that desertification is caused by livestock, mostly 

cattle, sheep, and goats overgrazing the plants, okay, leaving the 

soil bare and giving off methane. Almost everybody knows this, 

from Nobel laureates to golf caddies, always taught it, as I was. 

Now, the environments like you see here, dusty environments in 

Africa, where I grew up, and I loved wildlife, and so I grew up 

hating livestock because of the damage they were doing, and then 

my university education as an ecologist reinforced my beliefs. Well, 


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I have news for you. We were once just as certain that the world 

was flat. We were wrong then, and we are wrong again. And I 

want to invite you now to come along on my journey of reeducation 

and discovery. 

When I was a young man, a young biologist in Africa, I was involved in setting aside marvelous areas as future national parks. 

Now, no sooner—this was in the 1950s. And no sooner did we remove the hunting, drumbeating people to protect the animals, than 

the land began to deteriorate, as you see in this park that we 

formed. Now, no livestock were involved, but suspecting that we 

had too many elephants now, I did the research and I proved we 

had too many, and I recommended that we would have to reduce 

their numbers and bring them down to a level that the land could 

sustain. Now, that was a terrible decision for me to have to make, 

and it was political dynamite, frankly, so our government formed 

a team of experts to evaluate my research. They did. They agreed 

with me. And over the following years, we shot 40,000 elephants 

to try to stop the damage, and it got worse, not better. Loving elephants as I do, that was the saddest and greatest blunder of my 

life, and I will carry that to my grave. One good thing did come 

out of it. It made me absolutely determined to devote my life to 

finding solutions. 

When I came to the United States, I got a shock to find national 

parks like this one desertifying as badly as anything in Africa, and 

there had been no livestock on this land for over 70 years. And I 

found that American scientists had no explanation for this except 

that it is arid and natural. 

So I then began looking at all the research plots I could over the 

whole of the western United States where cattle had been removed 

to prove that it would stop desertification, but I found the opposite. 

As we see on this research station where this grassland that was 

green in 1961, by 2002 had changed to that situation. And the authors of the position paper on climate change from which I obtained 

these pictures attribute this change to unknown processes. 

Clearly we have never understood what is causing 

desertification, which has destroyed many civilizations and now 

threatens us globally. We have never understood it. Take one 

square meter of soil and make it bare like this is down here, and 

I promise you, you will find it much colder at dawn and much hotter at midday than that same piece of ground if it is just covered 

with litter, plant litter. You have changed the microclimate. Now, 

by the time you are doing that and increasing greatly the percentage of bare ground on more than half the world’s land, you are 

changing macroclimate, but we have just simply not understood 

why was it beginning to happen 10,000 years ago, why has it accelerated lately. We had no understanding of that. 

What we had failed to understand was that these seasonal humidity environments of the world, the soil and the vegetation, developed with very large numbers of grazing animals and that these 

grazing animals developed with ferocious pack hunting predators. 

Now, the main defense against pack hunting predators is to get 

into herds, and the larger the herd, the safer the individuals. Now, 

large herds, dung and urinate all over their own food, and they 

have to keep moving, and it was that movement that prevented the 


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overgrazing of plants, while the periodic trampling ensured good 

cover of the soil, as we see where a herd has passed. 

This picture is a typical seasonal grassland, it has just come 

through 4 months of rain and it is now going into 8 months of dry 

season, and watch the change as it goes into this long dry season. 

Now, all of that grass you see aboveground has to decay biologically 

before the next growing season, and if it doesn’t, the grassland and 

the soil begin to die. Now, if it does not decay biologically, it shifts 

to oxidation, which is a very slow process, and this smothers and 

kills grasses, leading to a shift to woody vegetation and bare soil, 

releasing carbon. 

To prevent that, we have traditionally used fire, but fire also 

leaves the soil bare, releasing carbon. And worse than that, burning one hectare of grassland gives off more and more damaging pollutants than 6,000 cars, and we are burning in Africa every single 

year more than 1 billion hectares of grasslands, and almost nobody 

is talking about it. We justify the burning as scientists, because it 

does remove the dead material and it allows the plants to grow.’’ 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Well, that is just a segment of the Ted talk. I recommend that you see it in its entirety; it is very impressive. And 

I happen to know, because I ranch in Wyoming. My family purchased the ranch next door. It had a Savory grazing system on it 

named after Allan Savory, the gentleman you just saw in the Ted 

talk. So it was 2,600 acres, it was divided into 16 grazing cells, and 

we would put very large numbers of cattle into each cell, and they 

would graze it down to the nubs, and then we would move them 

frequently from cell to cell using the same herding ideas that were 

expressed that occur naturally in the wild in Zimbabwe and elsewhere in Africa. By doing that, it did heal up some of the draws 

that were bare of all grasses and the grass did return, because you 

had the hoof action of the cattle depositing with their manure nutrients into the soil that were compacted into the soil by their splithooved hooves before they were moved into the next pasture. 

So I can attest to the fact that Allan Savory’s theories have 

worked on the ground in places, including the land that I worked 

as a rancher, and so it is something that we should discuss in 

terms of looking forward about how we manage public lands and 

present—or excuse me—prevent damage to our natural resources 

inadvertently. 

With that, I now recognize Mrs. Lawrence, ranking member of 

the Subcommittee on the Interior, for her opening statement. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to say, 

being a city girl born and raised, I have learned a lot from you. 

The United States has over 770 million acres of grazing land. 

These lands are important to both our agriculture and the environment. Grasslands provide pasture for livestock, but also act as a 

natural erosion control habitat for a diverse and sometimes even 

endangered species, and reservoirs for carbon dioxide that would 

otherwise be released into the atmosphere. 

While the environment is healthier, more resources exist for agricultural purposes. It goes without saying that if there is no forage, 

cattle simply cannot graze. Our ecological goals are intertwined 

with protecting the livelihood of farmers and ranchers. 


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As we will hear from our witnesses today, effective grazing practices actually offer the potential to help restore the quality of our 

grasslands. The movement of hooved animals turn the soil, allowing it to retain more water and nutrients. This boosts our soil quality and encourages future plant growth, and reduces the risks of 

destructive wildfires through the natural bush clearing. 

But grazing practices are not one-size-fit-all; rather, different environments may require different management practices for maximum benefit. According to the Natural Resources Conservation 

Service, animals should be moved from one area to the other, as 

the expert has told us, in a way that truly gives natural cycles a 

chance to occur and the plants an opportunity to regrow before the 

sections of land are grazed again. This principle is important to 

what we will discuss today, meeting the needs of livestock and 

ranchers while optimizing benefits to the environment. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses, and I yield back 

my time. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Thank you. 

I will hold the record open for 5 legislative days for any member 

who would like to submit a written statement. 

We will now recognize our panel of witnesses. I am pleased to 

welcome Ms. Judith Schwartz, author of ‘‘Cows Save the Planet 

and Other Improbable Ways of Restoring Soil to Heal the Earth’’; 

and Mr. Byron Shelton, senior program director of the Savory Institute. Welcome to you both. 

Pursuant to committee rules, witnesses will be sworn in before 

they testify, so please rise and raise your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 

about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 

the truth? 

Thank you. The witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Please be seated. 

In order to allow time for discussion, we ask you to limit your 

oral testimony to 5 minutes, but because we have some time to talk 

very casually and prospectively about these issues, we will have 

plenty of time for questions. Your entire written statement will be 

made part of the record. 

So, Ms. Schwartz, we will begin with you. You are recognized for 

5 minutes. Welcome. 

WITNESS STATEMENTS 

STATEMENT OF JUDITH D. SCHWARTZ 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Thank you. Is this on? Am I good? 

Mrs. LUMMIS. It sounds like it’s not on. Yeah. Is there a button— 

see the button? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. ‘‘Talk’’? 

Mrs. LUMMIS. There you go. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Thank you to Congresswoman Lummis, Ranking 

Member Lawrence, and members of the Interior Subcommittee for 

this opportunity. I am before you today as an author of two books 

that explore animal-land dynamics, particularly the potential for 

holistic livestock management to regenerate landscapes. 


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‘‘Cows Save the Planet’’ looks at soil as a hub for our environmental, economic, and social challenges, and for solutions. ‘‘Water 

in Plain Sight’’ explores how water intersects with climate, biodiversity, food security, and peace and conflict, and how understanding how water works, how it moves across the landscape 

helps us address such concerns. 

Understand, that I never expected to be on this beat; rather, as 

a journalist driven to explore solutions, I was drawn to the elegant 

complexity of flourishing ecosystems and the promise of drawing on 

nature’s models to restore balance and vitality to our lands, including through holistic managed grazing. 

Basically, whenever there are animals on the land, those animals 

are having an impact, which can be positive or negative depending 

on how they are managed. The paradigm for conservation has 

changed, in that land is not static, but requires biological activity. 

In nature, plants are to a large extent managed by herbivores and 

those plant-eating animals are managed by predators. The alteration of the landscape in the absence of natural predators have left 

a management void. With what we now understand about rangeland systems, this void can be filled in a way that at once bolsters 

ecological function and economic opportunity. 

In my reporting, I’ve encountered numerous examples of land 

transformed by restorative grazing. At Zimbabwe at the Africa 

Center for Holistic Management, the Dimbangombe River flows a 

kilometer farther than it has in living memory and now runs 

throughout the year. Despite drought in southern Africa, this land 

remains productive and supports abundant wildlife, including elephant and lions. 

In the Chihuahuan Desert, which spans several states in part of 

Mexico, I visited an area where holistic ranchers are working with 

bird conservation organizations to create a corridor for endangered 

migratory grassland birds. These ranches are islands of grass for 

the birds, whose numbers have steeply declined due to 

desertification throughout the region. 

In Australia, a rancher I interviewed uses cattle to control excess 

vegetation, and thus minimize the extent of wildfires. 

In each instance, management entails inquiring how nature 

maintained healthy conditions, and finding ways to mimic or ally 

with those processes. 

Agriculture, including ranching, need not be an extractive industry. It can be regenerative too, as well as consistent with conservation goals. This was noted at COP 21, the global climate conference 

in Paris last December, with the advent of the 4 per 1,000 Initiative introduced by the French Agricultural Ministry. This initiative, 

signed by 30 plus nations and several dozens NGOs, calls attention 

to agricultural means of bolstering carbon levels in the soil. Even 

at a modest annual rate, increasing soil carbon stocks has important implications for drawing down CO2, bolstering fertility and 

biodiversity, and enhancing land’s ability to retain water, which 

means added resilience amid the threat of drought, floods, and 

wildfires. 

Every 1 percent increase in soil organic matter, which is mostly 

carbon, represents an added 20,000 gallons of water per acre that 

can be held on the land. The loss of this capacity is a story that 


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has been written across much of the U.S., leading to many of our 

challenges that we face today. 

My recommendation is that we do not leave land bare and languishing and hope that it will somehow improve; rather, we should 

explore strategies that work with natural processes, including holistic planned grazing, restoring the predatory-prey relationship, 

and reviving populations of keystone species, such as beaver. 

One way to ascertain progress is through monitoring basic factors, such as water infiltration and soil carbon levels. 

Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. Schwartz follows:] 


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Mrs. LUMMIS. Thank you, Ms. Schwartz. 

And Mr. Shelton, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF BYRON SHELTON 

Mr. SHELTON. Honorable House Members, thank you for the opportunity to share conservation practices related to grazing. I am 

Byron Shelton, senior program director for Savory Institute. 

Allan Savory, the scientist, ecologist, and farmer, has worked 

years to understand and train others in managing land regeneratively. This effort has resulted in holistic management. Managing 

holistically considers the whole picture, including economic, environmental, and social considerations simultaneously, both short 

and long-term. 

Savory Institute was formed to promote large-scale restoration of 

the world’s grasslands. Grasslands comprise one-third of the 

world’s land surface, 70 percent of which are degraded. Savory Institute has 30 training centers worldwide, including demonstration 

sites and accredited professionals. Currently, over 40 million acres 

worldwide are being managed holistically. 

With that background, I would like to get right to the crux of the 

matter. If I could have—I have two photos. The first photo at this 

point could be put up. To allow for reasonable debate and decisions 

on grazing, a clear understanding of the role of the grazing animal 

is needed. A land manager may say, I wish it would rain, causing 

more plant growth. Just as important is the need for water for 

plants to decay. Nutrients have to cycle back to regenerate soil. 

Decay occurs through microorganisms and insects, which need 

water to live. 

With regular humidity and rainfall, as in this photo of the 

midAtlantic region, plants will grow, then biologically decay onto 

and into the ground, replenishing the soil, as water exists for the 

microorganisms and insects to live. You could go to the second 

photo, please. 

Now comes the point that is not generally recognized. With irregular humidity and rainfall, as in many of our western lands, plants 

remain standing for years, as water is limited for microorganisms 

that would cause biological decay. These plants turn gray, oxidize 

into the air, mine the soil by not returning to it, and die, creating 

bare ground, poor water and nutrient cycles, and biodiversity loss. 

This variation in regularity of humidity and seasonal rainfall is referred to as brittleness. Nonbrittle environments have regular humidity and moisture, where brittle-leaning environments have irregular humidity and moisture. 

What does this have to do with grazing? A bison, elk, deer, antelope, or cow, sheep, or goat can’t digest plants any more than you 

or I, but these ruminants, as they are called, have a multi-chambered stomach full of moisture and microorganisms. These microbes digest the plants the animals chew. The ruminant, wild or 

domestic, is a mobile digestive vat moving about the land, breaking 

down plant material and returning it as dung or urine to replenish 

the soil. 

When this animal is removed from brittle environments, this system is broken. This system is also broken by removing the predator 


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that kept the herding animals bunched and moving, allowing for 

grazed forages to recover by regrowing roots and leaves between 

grazings. Herding and fencing replaces the predator. The hooves 

aerate the soil that has been sealed by rainfall, to allow for water 

to enter, making the rainfall more effective, and trampling the old 

plant material. 

With bison or cattle, two tools are being managed: grazing and 

animal impact. Holistic management uses holistic plant grazing to 

manage these tools properly for regeneration of the natural resources. 

Regardless of whether one eats meat, wildlife and their predators 

or domestic livestock being managed to mimic nature are required 

in these brittle areas for a healthy ecosystem, biodiversity, and 

drinking water. 

Savory Institute’s work addresses food production, water quality 

and quantity, soil health, carbon sequestration, wildlife and plant 

conservation, and climate change. 

Land managers are increasing their profits while building biological capital, producing food and water on regenerating soils. 

Livestock, wildlife, plants, and human needs can be met simultaneously. 

Holistic management is appealing to conservative and liberal values. Managing holistically is economically viable, while restoring 

the environment and meeting the needs of the people involved. 

Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Shelton follows:] 


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Mrs. LUMMIS. I thank the witnesses. And now we will have a period of questioning. I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. 

Thank you again both for being here. What is inspiring and, I believe, hopeful about your testimony is, Mr. Shelton, what you noted 

near the end of your testimony, is this is something that conservatives and liberals can find some agreement on and move forward 

in a way that improves our land resources. So let me begin my 

questioning with you. 

Mr. Shelton, you’re from Colorado. Can you explain to me what 

the Savory Institute does to help it either demonstrate effective 

land management or assist with improving rangeland quality in 

the western United States? 

Mr. SHELTON. Yes, I can. We work to demonstrate ourselves as 

the headquarters kind of part of the organization, we collaborate 

on special projects with strategic partners, Heifer International, 

the Nature Conservancy, we work to have a—we have a worldwide 

network of regional training centers, or hubs, both in the brittle 

and nonbrittle environments, we have a hub in Michigan with 

Michigan State University, we collaborate with them to provide 

training for on-the-ground practitioners and managers of land. 

We see our role at the institute based in Colorado is also to remove barriers and improve conditions, and we see that primarily 

through informing policy, coordinating for relevant research is important, establishing market incentives, and working to increase 

public awareness. 

And I would say to your first comment, as I work with different 

managers on the land and people involved, wherever I go, it totally 

does involve people across the political spectrum, because we’re 

looking for what is it you want, what do you want the land to be 

like, therefore, do we understand what the actions we might do will 

give us, and how do we go about monitoring the ecosystem to make 

sure it works, and so it’s not a—it takes the emotion out of it and 

really works toward getting the answers people desire on the land. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Ms. Schwartz, in your research and study of these 

subjects, do you find that Federal policies are always consistent 

with a good result on the ground, or do you think there are ways 

that we could apply some of these new scientific discoveries on old 

grazing practices that could be useful in managing Federal lands 

in the future? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Absolutely. I haven’t studied in particular Federal lands, but we know that much of the land that is under the 

auspices of the government at this point is desertifying, is deteriorating and degrading, whichever term you choose, and a lot of that 

does have to do with a lack of understanding of how these ecological processes work. 

And one point that I made that I can highlight here is that our 

appreciation of what conservation means, that paradigm has shifted, because we understand the complexity involved in a functioning 

ecosystem. And one example, I’d like to talk about that example of 

the Chihuahuan Desert, because one would not expect conservation 

professionals and ranchers to be on the same page. However, what 

they found, that—even though the conservation organizations were 

focused on the birds, what they found was what was good for the 

animals was also good for the birds, and that the synergies, the biVerDate Sep 11 2014 10:27 Oct 24, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\22195.TXT APRIL

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ological synergies of the animals’ action on the land when they 

were managed appropriately, that creates the conditions for the 

birds to thrive. 

So there were these areas where there were—as one wildlife biologist said, were very birdy, you know, that these birds were really 

doing very well there, and then areas where you could see a little 

bit of mesquite, and otherwise it was just, you know, dust blowing 

around, and birds would have nowhere to alight, nowhere to find 

safety or food. So the point being that all those needs could be met 

together. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. My time has expired. I will now recognize the 

gentlelady, who is ranking member of this committee, Mrs. Lawrence, for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Thank you so much. 

Cattle are frequently considered significant contributors to climate change because they are responsible for 18 percent of the 

U.S. methane emissions, a gas that has 23 times the warming effect of carbon dioxide. 

Ms. Schwartz, you study soil health, and note that the positive 

impacts of healthy soils can extend way beyond its ability to encourage plant growth. In fact, healthy, nutrient-rich soil, created in 

part by fish and cattle managing processes, can work to directly 

counter climate change. Can you briefly walk us through how the 

movement of cattle sequesters carbon in the soil? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Okay. First I do feel the need to specifically address the methane question—— 

Ms. LAWRENCE. Okay. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. —because, again, that has so much to do with 

how the animals are managed. So if you have cattle in very close 

proximity and feedlots, and their waste is going into lagoons, that 

is a prime scenario for the production of methane. However, what’s 

often not understood—so blaming the cattle for that, you know, 

that’s our management decisions, but also in a natural system, in 

the soil, in healthy, diverse living soil, there are organisms that 

consume methane, they are called methanotrophs, these are bacteria. 

So if you have healthy grassland, then you’ve got a cycle within 

the larger carbon cycle in which there is no methane problem, because the methane is emitted, the methane is consumed by these 

organisms, and so it’s all in balance. So that is not a problem, and 

I think it’s important to have that. Did I get that? 

Mr. SHELTON. Yes. I agree. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Did I nail that? Okay. 

Wow, climate. I hope it’s okay if I—I’m going to kind of—I want 

to just expand a little bit on climate change, because I think it’s 

really also important to have that in context too. 

So when we talk about climate change, particularly in policy and 

journalism circles, we are often—the phrase tends to be understood 

as shorthand for too much CO2 in the atmosphere largely from the 

burning of fossil fuels. So that’s important, but I feel that that definition, that understanding of climate change limits us, so the 

way—my working definition of climate change is manifestations of 

distorted carbon, water, and energy cycles. And when we look at 


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it that way, then we can start to roll up our sleeves and say, how 

might we bring those cycles back into balance. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. For the record, I agree with you on that definition. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Okay. Okay. Thank you. So by bringing in the 

cattle, the animal impact into that—okay. So we’ve got lots of 

things happening. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Yes. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. So the animal activity is bringing carbon into the 

soil through the waste, through the burying—the bringing into the 

ground of the organic matter, the plant matter, and having it be 

worked up upon by the microorganisms, and by keeping the range 

lands healthy, this bolsters the production of deep-rooted plants, 

which draw carbon down, one—— 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Ms. Schwartz, I just want to—I want to get—— 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Please. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. —a question in to—— 

Can you explain how the decertification of grasslands causes 

these massive wildfires and how effective cattle grazing has the potential to reduce their occurrence? Mr. Shelton, do you have any 

comments on that? 

Mr. SHELTON. If there’s a lot left there to burn that could be put 

into the air, why wasn’t it eaten or put back onto the ground, 

maybe partly each way, to build the soil. It came from the soil, so 

it needs to go back. 

In those areas with that regular humidity, like I was saying earlier, it will do that naturally. In the areas where that is seasonal, 

then the large herding animal played that role. So there they are 

putting it back on the ground, but then that generates more to 

grow. Well, that’s great. We’ve got more food production, more 

wildlife production, it’s a continuing cycle, and we need to look at 

it that way as improving production to feed humans and wildlife 

as opposed to just seeing the effect of the problem and trying to get 

rid of a low level succession of a lot of weeds that would burn. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Thank you. I yield back my time. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. The chair recognizes the gentleman from Colorado, 

Vice Chairman. Mr. Buck, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you. 

This question really goes to both of you, and feel free to take it 

in whatever order you’d like, but you talked about how these grazing practices could improve the land. Have the Federal agencies 

been open to your suggestions on this issue? 

Mr. SHELTON. Yes is the short answer. The long—— 

Mr. BUCK. Give me the long one too. 

Mr. SHELTON. The longer answer is when the new ideas came out 

when Allan started working back in the 1970s and 1980s, there 

was more resistance than today. And who knows why the reason, 

it just—it was challenging some with current thought, but even 

since that day, but certainly now, there is more acceptability. It is 

very much dependent upon individuals within each agency, whether it’s the BLM, the Forest Service, or the NRCS, but we have very 

good support. 

I have leased land, I have ranched with tremendous support from 

State agencies or the Natural Resources Conversation Service as 


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the planned grazing we do meets and exceeds their prescribed grazing, and they work with us and are willing to let us do that. 

Sometimes, though, regulations, as was indicated at the beginning of opening statement, are—they force a one-size-fits-all method. Every situation is different. Every piece of land down the road, 

be it farm, ranch or communal area has different people involved, 

different needs, and different economics. They need to use the principles of how land is managed and what the results will be to create what they desire, and that would be, in my eyes, the best practice as opposed to coming up with specific strategic actions that are 

best practices, because they can’t always be. 

Mr. BUCK. Ms. Schwartz, have you had any experience working 

with the Federal Government on these issues? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. I haven’t. 

Mr. BUCK. Okay. Let me ask you something. The chair mentioned something that’s interesting to me. I guess it’s the role of 

the fence in terms of grassland management or range management. 

With the vast ranches that we have in Colorado and Wyoming and 

the west in the high arid desert, how do we create the incentive 

for our four-legged critters to move from one area to the other to 

accomplish the goal that I think you’re both talking about? 

Mr. SHELTON. We have to be the predator, and that’s done 

through herding or fencing or a combination. 

Mr. BUCK. Now, you’re talking to a prosecutor, so make sure you 

use the word ‘‘predator’’ carefully, because I used to prosecute a lot 

of those folks. 

Mr. SHELTON. Well, then let’s definitely clarify that. 

Mr. BUCK. Okay. 

Mr. SHELTON. The predator of the livestock that makes them 

want to stay together and moving. If you’re a grass plant and you 

get bitten off, you’re made to do that, but then as you start to regrow, you’ve got to let the sunlight be able to light and regrow 

roots and leaves so then you’re ready to go again, and that’s when 

you put carbon in the soil. 

If we don’t have a predator moving the herd along, again, we do 

that today easier because we don’t have enough wildlife, so through 

livestock to create habitat for more wildlife. Through livestock with 

it’s man-managed fencing and/or herding combination, we’re allowing that land to not be overtrampled or overgrazed; it’s grazed, it’s 

left until it regrows, and then that’s—it functions well that way, 

because it’s supposed to. It’s a management issue, it’s not a numbers of livestock or a livestock issue, and it’s a lack of predator 

problem. 

Now, how do we put that back when we live there now and 

there’s people making a living. Well, that’s when we need to understand how it works so we can come up with creative answers that 

meet each situation. But the short answer, the fence keeps them 

moving so that they don’t stay in the one area like—well, there you 

go. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you. 

Thank you, Chair. I yield back. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Among the things that we’ve dealt with is if you 

had livestock herders who really could stay with livestock while 

they were on large expanses, public lands, it would allow them to 


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keep the animals bunched and then allow them to continue to move 

them on in a way that would mimic the four-legged predators that 

kept that cycle going, for example, in Africa. 

One of the things we do is through our own Department of Labor 

rules, we have a one-size-fits-all regulation that prevents it from 

being economically viable to hire herders to be out with livestock 

on the open range or in forests, and so we can even look at our own 

Department of Labor regulations as a way to exempt cattle 

herding, sheep herding from one-size-fits-all, more urban-focused 

Department of Labor regulations. That’s just one example. 

The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. 

Palmer, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. PALMER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Ms. Schwartz when we hear that a system of grazing management is not prescriptive, because all land is different, what exactly 

does that mean? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. It means that what works in one place doesn’t 

necessarily work in another. 

I think I need your help with this. 

Mr. SHELTON. Sure. No problem. 

Mr. PALMER. Actually, I think that’s a good answer. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Oh. Okay. Okay. 

Mr. PALMER. And the logical conclusion from that is is that some 

of our Federal agencies need to understand that. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Yeah. That—that makes sense. 

Mr. PALMER. That one size does not fit all. 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Right. And I think that’s something that Mr. 

Shelton was alluding to. And when I mentioned at the end here in 

my suggestions that monitoring is often a very effective way of 

knowing that you’re right, you’re doing the right thing, as opposed 

to checking off the boxes, did I do this, did I follow this, because 

then you’re looking at how it’s actually working. And there are 

some really simple ways of monitoring water infiltration, how much 

water you’re absorbing, and also the soil carbon accumulation. 

And just another thing to mention along those lines is that the 

tools that we have now for assessing land changes with the satellite, mapping, and—interactive mapping and citizen science initiatives, it’s really pretty extraordinary and potentially very powerful. 

Mr. PALMER. Either one of you can comment or answer on this, 

and I’m not an expert in this, I grew up on a farm in northwest 

Alabama, and very humid climate, so we didn’t have some of the 

issues that they have out west, but just looking at it from a historical perspective and watching the video earlier, I can’t help but 

think about pre-expansion out west, the huge herds of buffalo, the 

antelope, things like that. 

Are we talking about—basically talking about the same things 

when we’re talking about grazing and having herds that occupy the 

land that help maintain these grasslands? Because looking at the 

map that he showed, it’s obvious that what was grasslands 150 

years, 200 years ago, maybe longer than that, we’re losing those. 

Does that make sense? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. Yeah. Well, I guess one of the insights that Allan 

Savory had, and he—and he said he wasn’t alone in having this inVerDate Sep 11 2014 10:27 Oct 24, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\22195.TXT APRIL

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sight, but he articulated it very well, is that grasslands and grazing animals co-evolved, so that the land needs the animals in the 

same way that the animals need the land. And then he also made 

the observation that land can be undergrazed as well as overgrazed. 

So the lack of all those animals, when we think about the millions and millions of bison across our Great Plains and how that 

was managing that ecosystem. 

Mr. PALMER. And then that ecosystem, it was holistic in the 

sense that the bison herds helped preserve the grasslands, but also 

were a source of food and clothing and shelter for native tribes, so 

it all worked together. And obviously we’re not going back there, 

so it leads to the conclusion that in terms of a holistic approach to 

land management, introducing cattle and other animals, and that 

industry becomes very significant for restoring the land. 

And this is part of what bothers me about some of the environmental claims and the issues that they bring up in the context of 

climate change and wanting to get rid of the cattle industry and 

things like that. What are we going to do? Are we going to go back 

to millions of buffalo and—you know? 

I think the bottom line here is that we’re doing more harm than 

good. Would you agree with that? 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. We’re doing more harm than good in what context? 

Mr. PALMER. In the context of the damage that’s being done to 

the land, how—— 

Ms. SCHWARTZ. As it’s—— 

Mr. PALMER. —and how the land is turning into desert, because 

we’ve stepped into an area that nature kept it healthy. Obviously 

things have changed, we’re not seeing millions of buffalo running 

across the plains anymore, so we’ve replaced that with agriculture 

and—and farming of cattle. And if we eliminate the cattle industry, 

then the land is going to suffer as a result. 

Mr. SHELTON. The land is suffering as a result, yes. The grasslands created by the relationship between the animals and the 

land, this is where our biggest topsoils are, this is where land can 

sequester more carbon than even some of the forestland. This is 

what we’ve torn up to put in our croplands because the soil is so 

good. This is what we’re now needing to figure out how to maintain 

before they run out. 

You know, 22 civilizations or so came and went. They didn’t have 

the technology we have now, but they still mismanaged their soil 

and water base. This really isn’t even about just grazing in an animal, whether you’re choosing a dairy on an elk that you want to 

have there, or a beef cattle; this is about keeping the soil covered 

so that plants grow, so it regulates the earth’s temperature and 

even probably most importantly, gives us water. 

The watersheds here in the Chesapeake Valley, they are no different than the ones in the west. They’re masked a little bit, it’s 

a little harder to see the soil erosion and the water we’re losing. 

So it is trying to—what we’re trying to do is make the point that 

along with many forms of technology, fire when it’s needed sometimes, rest, in other words, no disturbance of any kind, we need to 


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have in our toolbox also properly managed livestock and their predator to make land function. 

Mr. PALMER. One last point, and I realize I’ve gone over my time, 

Madam Chairman, but you brought up proper burning techniques, 

and I think in the video it was mentioned that burning one hectare 

of grasslands released more dangerous gases into the atmosphere 

than 6,000 automobiles. 

And I think about what’s going on in California and the wildfires 

out there, and, again, going back to Federal policy for land management, you can’t cut in firebreaks like you used to, you don’t 

have the road access, and we are seeing hotter fires burning more 

acres, and that’s also a major concern of mine and how that—the 

damage that that does. 

I do think the importance of this discussion we’re having today 

in the context of Federal land management, we really need to emphasize this, that we’ve made some policies that I think are doing 

more harm than good. 

I yield back. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. I thank the gentleman. 

And now I want to ask each of you to spend 5 minutes with concluding about questions that you wish you would have been asked 

but weren’t, statements that you want on the record for policymakers, but among those, I would like you to address whether you 

believe that Federal policymakers could experiment with some of 

the techniques that you see as improving grassland health in a way 

that could be replicated on the larger Federal landscape. In other 

words, are there demonstration projects that you can point to that 

have been done thus far that we might be able to use as examples 

for pilot projects on Federal lands? And in doing so, I want to 

thank you both so much for being here. 

The gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Shelton, is recognized first. 

Mr. SHELTON. Thank you. There are case studies where this has 

been demonstrated on the land already that are available. Yes, it 

could be done and replicated on Federal lands also. Probably—and 

I do believe that. The key, though, is because of the simple concept 

of regularity of humidity that I brought up earlier and that Allan 

mentioned in his Ted talk, if you used the tool of—any tool, say, 

fire, in a brittle-leaning area versus a nonbrittle or one with regular humidity, you will get a different result. This concept of that 

regularity takes everything we could do to the land and eliminates 

the possibility that we could have a one answer for every area, because it doesn’t work. 

We work to see and learn what will the probable results be if we 

use this tool in an area based on its degree of that regular humidity. It sounds simple, but that just is so important to understand. 

What we also do, though, is whatever piece of land we’re working 

with, you’ve got to get the right decisionmakers at the table, you’ve 

got to draw on the experts when you need input, but you’ve got to 

have the decisionmakers know what is it they want, what is the 

quality of life values they want for that property, and also what do 

they want that land to look like in the future, what will that future 

resource base be, what will the landscape look like? 

Then we choose actions that will bring about the desired results, 

and so each test that you would refer to would have to be driven 


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by that holistic context, we call it, just that combined context of the 

people involved. 

Then actions are chosen or not. And as Judy mentioned, we do 

the early warning, monitoring of the ecosystem processes to ensure 

that the land is moving in the direction it needs to go, the economy 

is moving in the direction, the economics related to that project, 

and the needs of the people are being met. 

So in that sense, the point I’m in short trying to make, there’s 

no list of prescribed actions or best management practices. All 

those types of things, which are good, need to be, though, tested, 

filtered toward are they keeping us within the context that we’re 

trying to work with in creating what we’re trying to create? 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Thank you, Mr. Shelton. 

Ms. Schwartz, you are recognized to respond as well with my 

gratitude for your being here. 

Mr. SCHWARTZ. Well, thank you very much. I concur in that it 

is very possible to bring this understanding and apply this knowledge set of practices, decisionmaking framework, however one characterizes it, to Federal lands. And I guess what I would say is, perhaps the most important aspect of this discussion is to know that 

it’s possible—to know that it’s possible to restore landscapes at 

large scale because I don’t think that that is generally understood. 

And I also believe that through my reporting, observations and 

talking to people, that what interferes with our being able to improve our landscapes, to help them be more resilient to fire and 

floods and droughts, and have them be more vibrant and productive, in many ways, comes down to—what interferes with it is 

imagination. To know that it could get better. 

I think that it’s very powerful when Allan Savory put up that 

image of the National Parkland that was all sand. Because I know 

that I might—had I not been studying and researching and all of 

this—go there and say, isn’t that stark beauty? Because one assumes that it has always been that way and can never be any different. So we have lost, as we go through generations where many 

of our lands are losing function, we think that it’s always been that 

way and we don’t understand how lush and productive and vibrant 

our landscapes can be. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Well, I cannot express enough my gratitude that 

you both traveled all this way and prepared testimony and have 

presented your thoughts to this committee and for the record. 

This is the beginning of a dialogue. We are now 15, 16 years into 

this 21st century and have a long way to go to absorb and understand the scientific growth that you understand and how to use it 

for the betterment of the land and water resources that you have 

discussed today. 

So you’ve enlightened the discussion. I hope this is the first of 

many opportunities for Congress to begin to use the information 

that you have provided today to produce on-the-ground results that 

will allow us to hand our children and our children’s children a better landscape and better understanding of how to manage it. 

So I wanted to thank you both for the work you do in this area 

and for taking the time to appear before this committee today to 

enlighten this discussion. 


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If there is no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

Æ 


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