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98–882 PDF 2016

S. Hrg. 114–405 

NOMINATION OF DENISE T. ROTH 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

NOMINATION OF DENISE T. ROTH, TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, U.S 

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

JULY 23, 2015 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin Chairman 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

JONI ERNST, Iowa 

BEN SASSE, Nebraska 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

KEITH B. ASHDOWN, Staff Director 

CHRISTOPHER R. HIXON, Chief Counsel 

GABRIELLE D’ADAMO SINGER, Deputy Chief Counsel for Governmental Affairs 

GABRIELLE A. BATKIN, Minority Staff Director 

JOHN P. KILVINGTON, Minority Deputy Staff Director 

DEIRDRE G. ARMSTRONG, Minority Professional Staff Member 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Chief Clerk 

LAUREN M. CORCORAN, Hearing Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 1 

Senator Lankford .............................................................................................. 3 

Senator Ernst .................................................................................................... 14 

Senator McCaskill ............................................................................................ 20 

Prepared statement: 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 31 

WITNESSES 

THURSDAY, JULY 23, 2015 

Denise T. Roth, to be Administrator, U.S. General Services Administration 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 33 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 37 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 53 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 56 

Responses to post-hearing questions .............................................................. 84 

(1) 

NOMINATION OF DENISE T. ROTH 

THURSDAY, JULY 23, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in room 

342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper presiding. 

Present: Senators Lankford, Ernst, Carper, and McCaskill. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. The Committee will come to order. 

Senator Lankford and I are going to co-chair this hearing for our 

nominee today. 

Denise, we welcome you. 

I do not know if you have anyone in your family that is here with 

you. Do you have anyone in your family that is here with you? 

Ms. ROTH. I do, Senator. My husband is here, Charles Roth. 

Senator CARPER. She told me about you earlier in our interview. 

She said your middle name was Lucky. [Laughter.] 

Ms. ROTH. He says the same. 

Senator CARPER. And I would agree. People say that about my 

middle name, too. 

Today, our Committee convenes to consider the nomination of 

Denise Turner Roth to be Administrator of the General Services 

Administration (GSA). 

We welcome you, Ms. Roth, today, and your husband, before our 

Committee, and we thank you for your willingness to serve as our 

Administrator. We thank your family for their willingness to share 

you with the people of our country. 

The General Services Administration has a mission that is near 

and dear to my heart and, I think, the hearts of many of us on this 

Committee. That mission is to help other agencies do more for less. 

And by helping other agencies with contracting, information technology (IT) solutions, and property management, GSA is a catalyst 

for both reducing expenses and improving performance. 

And we take a governmentwide approach to management instead 

of letting agencies all operate in stovepipes, we really can save a 

lot of money. For example, when we leverage the buying power of 

the Federal Government through the Strategic Sourcing Initiative, 

we can save billions in what we spend on supplies and other items, 

from toilet paper to technology, I like to say. 

In fact, the Comptroller General of the General Accountability 

Office (GAO), Gene Dodaro, who has sat in that seat many times, 

reminded our Committee that for every additional percent of Fed-
2 

eral contracting we can do through strategic sourcing we could save 

$4 billion. 

Another issue where GSA plays a vital role in saving taxpayer 

dollars is real property management. That is a subject that Senator 

Lankford’s predecessor, Tom Coburn, and I worked on for many 

years with your predecessor, Denise. 

Last month, this Committee heard from the Commissioner of the 

Public Buildings Service at GSA, Norman Dong, and Mr. Dong testified on actions the GSA is taking to consolidate space, improve 

space utilization, and support the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in the governmentwide effort to reduce the Federal footprint. I am encouraged by the work underway to address this longstanding issue. It has been a source of constant sorrow for me and, 

I know, for Dr. Coburn. 

The National Strategy for the Efficient Use of Real Property and 

the Reduce the Footprint policies provide a framework to enhance 

agency management of real property, reduce the footprint, and save 

taxpayer dollars. However, much more needs to be done to remove 

this issue from GAO’s high-risk list, including work here in the 

Congress, on much of which we are responsible for. 

I look forward to hearing from Ms. Roth today for her thoughts 

on real property reform and look forward to working with her as 

we contemplate legislation addressing this later this year. 

I like to say, as they say at Home Depot, you can do it; we can 

help. And we want to make sure we are helping in this regard. 

Ms. Roth has served as Deputy Administrator of GSA since February 2014 and has served as Acting Administrator of GSA since 

March of this year, when her predecessor, Dan Tangherlini, left the 

agency—somebody for which I had great affection and admiration. 

Hated to see him go. 

He said you will not miss me for a day because the person that 

is coming along after me is better yet, sort of like John the Baptist 

like laying the groundwork for his successor, the main event. 

But we will not even have to wait for a year to hit the ground 

running because you have already been running and have been carrying the baton on the innovations at GSA that Dan and others 

had started. 

Ms. Roth has also had great management at the local level, having served in the Administration of Mayor Tony Williams here in 

the District of Columbia, a very good mayor, and then later as Assistant City Manager and then City Manager of Greensboro, North 

Carolina, which is located just south of the town I grew up in, 

Danville, Virginia. 

I also note from my colleagues that Ms. Roth has the strong support of her predecessor, Mr. Tangherlini. He is someone who is 

widely respected on both sides of the aisle here in this Committee 

and in the Congress. 

In getting to know Ms. Roth, I believe she will carry on with 

Dan’s pragmatic, nonpartisan approach to find practical solutions 

to some of the very real problems that we continue to face. 

Ms. Roth, I look forward to hearing from you; we look forward 

to hearing from you, about your vision for GSA and a discussion 

of the property, contracting, and other management challenges 

across the government that GSA can help address. 
3 

And, with that, I would like to yield to Senator Lankford for any 

comments that he would like to add. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. 

I would like to welcome Ms. Roth as well. 

We have had the opportunity to be able to sit and visit and be 

able to talk through things and the plans, and I look forward to 

continuing that conversation and look forward to hearing your testimony today. 

I welcome your husband here and all the other guests and the 

folks that are around you from GSA. 

So I am glad that you are here and look forward to the conversation. 

I yield back. Was that a long enough statement for you? 

Senator CARPER. Usually, it takes that long for us to clear our 

throats in the Senate. [Laughter.] 

I am really impressed. Is it still Thursday? It is still Thursday, 

and we have both given opening statements; that is good. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at our nominations hearings give their testimony under oath. So I am going to 

ask you, Ms. Roth, to stand, to raise your right hand, and to take 

this oath. Please raise your right hand. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Committee 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so 

help you, God? 

Ms. ROTH. I do. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

[Pause] 

Just a very brief further introduction, if I could, of our nominee: 

Denise Turner Roth is the Acting Administrator and Deputy Administrator of the General Services Administration. Prior to joining 

GSA, as you heard, she spent 5 years as the Assistant City Manager and then City Manager of Greensboro, North Carolina, overseeing the day-to-day operation of the city of over a quarter of a 

million people. 

Ms. Roth, we are happy to have you here today. We look forward 

to hearing your statement. 

And feel free to reintroduce Lucky. Feel free to do that or anyone 

else in the audience. 

Before you speak, let me just ask: Do we have anyone in the audience who serves at GSA, anybody who is part of the team at the 

General Services Administration? If so, just raise your hand. 

[Show of hands] 

OK. Thank you. 

All right. You are recognized. Please proceed. 
4 

1The prepared statement of Ms. Roth appears in the Appendix on page 33. 

TESTIMONY OF DENISE T. ROTH,1 TO BE ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. 

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. 

Good morning, Senator Carper, Senator Lankford, and Members 

of the Committee who I am sure will come soon, as well. I am honored to be here today. 

Senator CARPER. Actually, sometimes it is a good sign on the attendance. 

Ms. ROTH. OK. 

Senator CARPER. When the room is full, you might want to be 

worried. 

Ms. ROTH. I wanted to acknowledge them before they came. 

Senator CARPER. You can feel lucky, too, so far. [Laughter.] 

Ms. ROTH. Last year, I joined the General Services Administration as Deputy Administrator. The organization was in an ongoing 

period of significant and much-needed change. In response to serious challenges at the agency, a series of reforms had been initiated 

to improve oversight, strengthen controls, reduce costs, and refocus 

the agency on its core mission. As Deputy Administrator, I was responsible for executing many of these reforms. 

Since March of this year, I have served as Acting Administrator, 

and I have worked to seize the tremendous opportunities we have 

as an organization to introduce new technologies into the government, change the way we utilize Federal workspace, and modernize 

acquisitions. 

If confirmed as Administrator of GSA, I will continue to oversee 

the implementation of these reforms; I will work to ensure GSA is 

a proactive Federal partner, bringing cost savings solutions directly 

to agencies rather than waiting for them to call; and I will forge 

a path where GSA can better partner with local communities to 

support economic development. 

I have been honored to serve at GSA for the last 17 months, and 

with your approval, I hope to have the honor of continuing to serve. 

I would welcome the opportunity to answer any of your questions 

today. 

Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Short but sweet. Thank you for that statement. 

Before I yield to Senator Lankford for questions, I need to ask 

three questions we ask of all nominees, that are just simple questions. I think you may have heard these before but if you will just 

please answer briefly after each question. 

Is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. ROTH. No. 

Senator CARPER. No. 2, do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have 

been nominated? 

Ms. ROTH. No. 

Senator CARPER. All right, one last question. Do you agree, without reservation, to comply with any request or summons to appear 
5 

and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if 

you are confirmed? 

Ms. ROTH. I do. 

Senator CARPER. Very well. 

Senator Lankford is going to go ahead and start us off with our 

first round of questions, and I will jump in right after he is finished. 

James, go ahead. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you, Senator. 

Let me ask about measuring success. That is one of the challenges for anyone who steps in the role. You have been around it, 

and you have been around the office. You know the operation well. 

When you step into a leadership role, a year from now there will 

be questions to say, have you been successful? Five years from now, 

there will be questions to say, how were you successful? 

What metrics will you use to say this is how we know if GSA is 

succeeding? And then I would like to know kind of the steps that 

you would like to take to get to that spot. 

But, first, let me just talk about the metrics. What are the things 

that you look at and say, if we can get these things done, we are 

succeeding? 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

There are a couple of areas. Obviously, GSA, in our mission, has 

a strong focus on real property management, acquisitions, and 

technology services. Within each of those realms, there are areas 

that we need to be very focused on in terms of ensuring that we 

are achieving success. 

So from real property, from my perspective and the team’s perspective, in part, that is our commitments within the operational 

agreements we make as an organization. It is a commitment in 

terms of reducing the footprint overall and supporting agency activity. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. Let me stop you for just a second? But 

I want you to keep going on it. 

I would tell you that Senator Carper has worked on this for a 

long time, and Senator Coburn, as he mentioned before, had 

worked on it for a long time. Multiple GSA Directors have worked 

on the real property issue. 

What I would like to know is the metrics of: How do you know 

you are succeeding when others have struggled with this same 

issue? 

Are you looking at 5 percent reduction? Is it the cost per square 

foot goes down? Is it the number of square feet goes down? 

Kind of, what is the target for you to know that we are not just 

working on it, but we are actually making progress on this? So 

what do you look at as the main metric there to evaluate that? 

Ms. ROTH. There are a few targets that are built in there. One 

of the ones I pointed to was the operational agreements. This is 

probably the laser-focus area in which we can see if the agencies 

that have set out a reduction target overall, from their reduction 

plans are actually achieving that with each activity that they are 

taking place across the portfolio, across the country. 

So I would say, if I had to pick one, that one is giving us the 

best chance at really identifying are we actually applying the policy 
6 

itself to the actual activity, but there are other places that play 

into that. 

Some of the areas that we will be talking about, I am sure, is 

around disposal as well as the activities related to the cost itself 

in the market. How much are we using our existing properties 

versus the leasing activity that is occurring? 

But if I were to pick one in that area, it would be the operational 

agreements because that gives us the best visibility. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. Let’s talk about leasing versus buying. 

This has been an ongoing conversation as well. 

There is a piece of property we are going to use for 20 years, 10 

years, 15, years. It may be more efficient to buy that than it is to 

lease it, but most budgets are not built-in for buy; they are built 

in for a lease as far as the year-to-year payments on that. 

How do we struggle with that, and what can you do to help us 

as a government deal with that issue? 

Ms. ROTH. I think in the overall—and what I would add to that 

is our existing property as well. And to the extent that we are actually capitalizing on the ultimate utilization rates of those properties is a key part to that. 

When we find ourselves in a place that a lease is going to take 

us out to the same level of buying, it is not the right place to be. 

And I think that we should continue to talk about what are the 

options and alternatives that we can use as a Federal Government. 

Right now, our primary areas of focus are either buying or leasing, 

and buying outright, and that does create a hardship. So to the extent that we can capitalize on what we have existing in those markets, to offset that overall cost, is helpful as well. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. That will be something that we will look 

for in the days ahead—a legislation proposal or a set of ideas of 

how do we get to there. 

Obviously, with military construction, we have a base military 

budget. Then we have a military construction budget that is separate, knowing that these items, military bases, are not something 

we necessarily want to lease all the time. We want to be able to 

own it, be able to operate it. 

But that is different, for instance, than if you just transition over 

to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). That control tower 

that we assume we are going to use for the next 30 years is often 

leased property. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD. We are going to use that year after year. We 

are probably going to occupy that, and no one else is going to use 

that control tower but us. 

Ms. ROTH. Right. 

Senator LANKFORD. So should we purchase that, or should we 

lease that? 

Those are questions that we are going to have to work together 

on, and we are going to need some recommendations, and those 

legislative proposals to come back would be very important to us. 

Ms. ROTH. I look forward to working with the Committee on this 

topic. I think it is very important and actually could give us other 

tools in the tool chest, as it were. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. That would be great. 
7 

Let me talk about a unique perspective here for you and your 

background. You really do approach this with a really interesting 

background, coming from a city manager’s perspective in the past. 

But as you know well as a city manager, everyone wants to have 

Federal property in their city because they are good neighbors. 

As a Federal Government, we, on the whole, not always, but we, 

on the whole, take care of our properties, watch out for them, have 

very strict rules on how we are going to use it. 

And cities, very often, do not want to see Federal properties go 

away because when that moves into private hands or when it 

moves into not being used then the building gets rundown and becomes a problem. 

So, from a city manager perspective, you were fighting to keep 

Federal properties there. Now from GSA’s perspective and the leadership of that, you are now working to tell city managers, no, we 

are leaving, or we are taking these five buildings and we are condensing into one, and such. 

How are you going to handle that, just in the shift of the two perspectives for you? 

Ms. ROTH. I do not think they have to necessarily be in conflict. 

From that city manager perspective, part of the other information that would be helpful is that the vacancy will be happening 

because it can create opportunities. There are many places that the 

Federal Government has actually been able to acquire property 

that could be very beneficial assets for a local community. And to 

the extent that we can help them understand what those tools are, 

understand what their long-term economic strategy and goals are, 

and work in concert with them, it is beneficial. 

We generally have a sense long-term where we are going to go. 

Right now, we are working on those 5-year efficiency plans. That 

is going to give us a sense of where those vacancies could occur. 

Knowing that early on, as a city manager, would have helped me 

be in a much more proactive position. 

Senator LANKFORD. So just earlier notification but still an urgency to be able to say we have to resolve this real property issue? 

Ms. ROTH. As well as helping the city understand what rules and 

regulations from a GSA perspective they could take advantage of, 

such as the disposal process and the role that they can play there. 

There are a number of areas that really favor local communities 

that they could take advantage of. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. So any leader has a responsibility for 

morale of the people that are around. I think you have heard about 

a Las Vegas conference that was handled with GSA several years 

ago, which was a real shot at the morale of some really great folks 

that are at GSA. The challenge you will have in leadership is stepping in and being able to lead when there is still the spotlight on 

the organization, saying, how are you handling morale? 

What is a way that you are going to incentivize positive morale 

and a sense of engagement among your staff? 

Ms. ROTH. I have had the chance to travel around and see most 

of our regions except for one, and what I find is that people are 

very committed they have going here at GSA. To the extent that 

we can actually recognize that work, and recognize it as it is hap-
8 

pening and the benefit it has to the overall mission and goal of 

GSA, I think it is the right space to be in. 

None of us want to be back at the places we were in 2012, and 

we are really pulling toward what is it that we can do to support 

the strength of GSA going forward. 

And I think a lot of it is really playing the role that we are 

meant to play with supporting other Federal agencies. To the extent that we are playing, we are at the table, we are seen as a resource, and we are actually moving our gears and really challenging both our perspective, as well as how we work within our 

mission, is what is making us stronger. And so I think that is 

where we need to focus and that really gets our group rallied. 

Senator LANKFORD. That is great. Yes, nothing breeds morale 

better, and a strong morale, than success. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator LANKFORD. When people feel like they are accomplishing 

something, they are getting something done, it just continues to 

feed. And so anything that you can do to help the success of the 

agency as a whole, and help the individuals within the agency feel 

like they are not trapped in the bureaucracy of trying to move papers around, but they are successful and they are actually moving 

some things, breeds a tremendous amount of encouragement across 

the organization. So I look forward to your renewed, fresh leadership in that area. 

It has been a great organization, and I look forward to seeing it 

continue to grow. So keep pushing your folks and finding the ways 

to have efficiency. 

Ms. ROTH. Great. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator LANKFORD. I yield back. Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Senator Lankford. 

The Senator from Oklahoma has heard me tell this story a time 

or two before, but I am going to repeat it. It just follows up on what 

he just said. 

I usually ride back and forth on the train to Washington every 

day because I live in Delaware, and a year or two ago, I was driving from the Young Mens Christian Association (YMCA) in Wilmington to the train station to catch the train. 

I listen to National Public Radio (NPR) news at the top of the 

hour, at 7. And this one day they offered a news story about an 

international survey in which they had surveyed literally thousands of people across the world, and they asked them, what is it 

that you like most about your job? That was the question. 

What do you like most about your job? And lot of people said— 

not half, but a lot of people said, I like getting paid; I like a paycheck. 

Some people said, I like having benefits, like health care, a pension, or sick leave. 

Some people said they like the folks they work with or the environment in which they work. 

But to his point, the answer that most people gave was they felt 

the thing they like most about their work was that what they were 

doing was important and that they were making progress. 

That is what most people felt. The work they were doing was important, and they are making progress. 
9 

The work that you do at GSA is incredibly important, and I think 

on a number of fronts we are making progress. We are talking 

about one of them here today. We are making some; we need to 

make more. 

When Dr. Coburn and I—I came here a couple years before he 

did, but we had really the privilege of leading a Subcommittee of 

this Committee, called Federal Financial Management (FFM). And 

we realized early on we were just one little Subcommittee and we 

could not have much effect on making better use of taxpayers’ dollars if it was just our Subcommittee that was working on it. 

So we learned how to partner with GAO. And then we learned 

how to partner with OMB. We learned how to partner with the Inspectors General (IGs) across the government. We learned how to 

partner with nonprofit groups that were concerned about waste in 

government. And finally, I learned—he probably figured this out 

sooner than I did—we learned how to partner with GSA. 

And then we got the opportunity to lead this full Committee, and 

it has really put our motivation and our aspirations for how to get 

better results for less money on steroids. 

But you play a huge role in this, an outsized role that I did not 

really fully grasp until recent years. 

I love what Senator Lankford is talking about with respect to 

metrics, and I would just urge you to take what he said, take it 

to heart, and be thinking about how do we measure success. 

How do we measure success, if we are not keeping score? 

What did Vince Lombardi used to say? If we are not keeping 

score, we are just practicing. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. So it is incredibly important that we keep score 

and keep everybody honest, including ourselves and the folks we 

lead. That is great advice from us to you. 

I do not know how long Senator Lankford is going to be able to 

stay here. This would be helpful for me and maybe for him. I want 

to just move off-subject just for a minute or two. 

You played a leadership role early on, working for Mayor Williams here, for the District of Columbia. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. Senator Lankford and I are big Golden Rule believers; treat other people the way we want to be treated. It is a 

guiding force in his life, and it certainly is for me. 

Legislation that I have introduced here would make it possible 

for people in the District of Columbia to actually be represented 

with voting members in the Senate and the House. I offered that 

legislation. We have a number of co-sponsors. And I do not know 

that it is going to become law anytime soon. 

I am troubled by the fact that the folks here pay taxes, they 

serve in the military, and they have many responsibilities of citizenship, but they do not get a vote in the House or Senate. That 

just does not seem right to me. 

And there are different ways to fix it. So earlier I had supported 

an idea of letting the folks in the District vote for either a U.S. 

Senator in Maryland or a U.S. Senator in Virginia and have their 

own delegate, not just a delegate but a U.S. Representative with 
10 

a vote in the House. I thought that might be a good compromise. 

It did not happen. 

So whether or not we make progress on the legislation I have introduced this year, or reintroduced this year, talk to us just for a 

minute, putting on your old hat from you work in the District of 

Columbia. What are some things that the Congress can do, this 

Committee can do, in terms of the Golden Rule, treating the District of Columbia citizens in the way that we would want to be 

treated, particularly with respect to budget autonomy and the ability to do things? 

Right now, we are sitting on judicial nominees. We reported 

them out of committee. We have been sitting on them in the Senate 

for 2 years. Very well-qualified people. And it is just wrong. 

But just give us a minute, if you will, on some things that we 

might want to focus on, short of statehood or whatever, that just 

would be consistent with treating other people the way we want to 

be treated. 

Ms. ROTH. Sure. Well, thank you for this unique opportunity. I 

am actually fifth generation Washingtonian as well. 

Senator CARPER. Are you? 

Ms. ROTH. So this is an interesting question. 

As I reflect, I would say that there are areas that oftentimes are 

policy areas that Congress is considering that could be beneficial 

and worthwhile in the District of Columbia. 

And I think that to the extent that you as a Committee continue 

to invite in the leadership of the District of Columbia, in terms of 

identifying those policy opportunities and really testing them and 

seeing their success or failure, and being open to that, I think is 

beneficial. 

We have here—and I have been impressed. I have been gone for 

over 10 years and to come back to see the commitment, the level 

of commitment of the residents, the quality of life improving, a 

community where there was no community previously, is tremendous. And it says to me that there are people here that are really 

and truly investing in their communities. 

So to the extent that, if there was a committee of D.C. leadership—and we have quite a few leaders, as you point out, that live 

in the City or have the City as their home base, that can evaluate 

policy opportunities that we may want to try on a small scale here 

before seeking them out throughout the country. I think it could be 

a great partnership for the District in terms of it being a true Nation’s Capital, at the same time being a partner with Congress. 

Part of the relationship there has always been about trust as 

well as what is the role that the District plays in supporting the 

national leadership that comes here every year and makes our national policy. So, to the extent that that relationship can build, I 

think it would be a good thing and we could see some interesting 

policy come from that. 

Senator CARPER. OK. I have some direct questions that pertain 

to your nomination for this position I want to ask, but let me just 

ask Senator Lankford if he has more questions. 

You are welcome to jump in. 

Senator LANKFORD. Actually, I would enjoy the conversation, but 

I am heading to an Appropriations hearing. There is a rumor out 
11 

that the Senate is working on appropriations again, and so I am 

trying to get down there to that Committee. 

Senator CARPER. OK. 

Senator LANKFORD. So I appreciate the conversation, though, as 

well. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you for all your contributions, for your 

presence today. 

Senator LANKFORD. No, thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Let me come back to the matter at hand, and 

that is your nomination to head up GSA. Let’s talk a little bit 

about priorities. 

Sometimes I say to my staff and others, make me a guided missile, not an unguided missile. 

And we all need to be guided missiles. If we are just scattershot, 

we are not going to get, at the end of the day, nearly as much done 

as we should. 

Just share with us maybe three or four of your top priorities as 

Administrator. 

What would be maybe your approach to measuring—back to Senator Lankford’s question, but what would be your approach to 

measuring how well GSA is doing in carrying out those priorities? 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

Well, as I talk about really the next steps and my vision for GSA, 

they do come into three areas—operational excellence, economic 

catalyst, and proactive partnership. 

Senator CARPER. Say those again slowly. 

Ms. ROTH. Operational excellence, economic catalyst, and 

proactive partnership. I think these themes build on the strengths 

of GSA and our current mission. 

And just to give you a moment on each, in terms of operational 

excellence, there have been quite a bit of reforms, as I referenced 

earlier, that have started, that have been put in place in relation 

to the agency, especially around consolidation of some of our operational activity. For us to continue to see that through and ensure 

that that effort is successful, as well as right-size for the operations 

of the organization, I think it is important. 

The previous Administrator, Administrator Tangherlini, set out 

on a path in 2012, and I think that it is the right direction, and 

so really trying to ensure that the nuts and bolts of that activity 

is followed through is a key priority for me. 

In terms of economic catalyst, GSA is represented across the Nation in many communities. And as we were talking about earlier, 

I think if we are very proactive in terms of what our planning is 

within those communities as it relates to buildings and properties 

that we are managing, and work alongside the communities that 

are there, we can see some great opportunities, such as projects 

such as Volpe in Massachusetts, the transportation project. And I 

think there is many other examples of that across our portfolio. 

I really would like to see us take a strategic approach to, as we 

are planning, either to dispose of property or to capitalize on existing property, to really engage local communities on what their 

plans are and how we can overlap and leverage from public and 

private activity. 
12 

And from proactive partnership, we can see that with many of 

our agency partners all of us actually are struggling to ensure that 

we are keeping our administrative costs down and that we are really delivering the services for the American people and the taxpayer. 

To the extent that we look ahead, utilizing the data that we have 

about these agencies, and help them be more strategic in how they 

approach their current management, I think would help make 

them successful. So if that is from property acquisition technology, 

back office management, we frequently are engaging with all of the 

agencies around Federal Government. We have a good insight in 

terms of what they manage, how much they are managing, who 

they are managing for, and I think we can use that data to 

proactively go to them with the potential solutions. 

So those are the main areas I really focus on. 

And in terms of performance management—actually, we did not 

have this discussion earlier, but one of my main passions is really 

around performance management. And to the extent that we are 

clear on the front end, as we go into a fiscal year (FY) or a calendar 

year, as it be—what are our goals that we want to look back on 

12 months from now and be successful? And how we are measuring 

that along the way is very important. 

So I continue to ensure to carve out the time both for setting 

those goals with the senior leadership team but also tracking that 

activity, month to month, quarter to quarter. And it is only then 

that we can really get to the right place of understanding are we 

being successful in the path that we set as well as evaluating did 

we set the right path because sometimes that is the case as well. 

And to the extent that being a Deputy I was able to be closer to 

that, as Administrator not as close, but ensuring I have a team 

that is supporting me, that has that same focus and vision and is 

helping to run that play is important to me as well. 

Senator CARPER. All right. And I want to welcome Senator Ernst. 

Nice to see you this morning. You are always great and faithful 

in your attendance. 

I have learned. I had a number of jobs. We have all had a number of jobs in our lives. 

I started work when I was really a pretty young kid, but I had 

the chance to serve a lot of uses—a naval officer; I had a chance 

to be Treasurer of my State, Congressman, Governor, and now a 

Senator. 

But in those jobs—and, frankly, in jobs I had before that in high 

school and college—I learned a lot, things that inform me to this 

day. Working with my mom in my grandfather’s mom-and-pop supermarket in Beckley, West Virginia, when I was a kid growing 

up—just all kinds of lessons that were helpful, hugely helpful for 

me, from those sources. 

I want you to go back, not all the way back to your childhood and 

your earlier work, but I want you to talk about the work you did 

in the District of Columbia. I want you to think back on your years 

when you were the Assistant City Manager in Greensboro and then 

the City Manager in Greensboro and how you experienced a number of the management challenges that are not dissimilar from 

what you are going to be facing in this role. 
13 

What were some of the lessons learned from those, whether it 

was your work in the District or whether it was your work in 

Greensboro, that you think will inform you in these new responsibilities on the outside chance you actually get confirmed for this 

job? 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

Well, I will say there have been a few management challenges 

and experiences, as well as successes, that I learned from over the 

years. 

In general, there is a couple of themes that I keep with me. One 

is to be clear as I come into a role in terms of what my expectations 

are and how I expect that we can get there, and then understand 

and share in the values with the leadership that are there in terms 

of their perspective of that as well. 

I have also learned to trust my instincts from the front end. So 

if there is a—especially where it comes to management challenges, 

if there is an area where something is not working, whether it is 

personnel or otherwise, recognize that early on and be willing to 

deal with it head-on has been an important strategy for me. 

Quite frankly, ultimately, when you let things linger, they do not 

get better is what I have learned. 

So that has been very important, as well as understanding and 

trusting the people that are around you. Ultimately, everyone has 

the right seat for themselves to be in and has strengths in one aspect or another. Understanding where those strengths are, ensuring that they are doing work that plays to that strength, and then 

trusting them to do the work, and holding them accountable to it 

is another important tenet that I keep as a manager as well. 

Senator CARPER. Before I turn it over to Senator Ernst, a couple 

of months ago I was reading through my clips at the end of the 

day, and I came across an article about a survey taken of, in this 

case, senior-level Federal employees, senior supervisors. And several thousand of them were interviewed, and they were asked— 

kind of going back to what Senator Lankford was asking about— 

morale. They were asked, what can be done to improve your morale 

as senior leaders within the Civil Service? 

And some people said, they work really hard; they would like to 

not have to work quite as long, have more time with their families. 

Some people said, more pay would be good. 

But the majority of people said they would just like to be 

thanked. 

Imagine that. I would just like somebody to say, thank you. 

And what I do when I go through—the morale in the Department 

of Homeland Security (DHS) is not high. In some parts it is, but 

in a lot of parts it is not. They have tough jobs. 

But like when I go through airports, at Transportation Security 

Administration (TSA), what I have done is started—when people 

are doing a clearly good job, dealing with a lot of challenges, I will 

just say: I am Tom Carper. I serve on the Senate Committee on 

Homeland Security. I just want to thank you for what you do. 

And I cannot tell you how many TSA people say—nobody has 

ever thanked me before. 
14 

So I always urge leaders, obviously, to personalize it, but maybe 

the three most important words we can say is ‘‘I love you,’’ a lot. 

I say that a lot to people. 

But the other three words that are really important are ‘‘please’’ 

and ‘‘thank you.’’ 

And I would urge you to—you probably do that already, but I 

would urge you to keep that in mind and in your heart as you go 

forward. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Senator Ernst. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST 

Senator ERNST. Thank you, Senator Carper. I appreciate it. 

He is always very gracious with his compliments as well. 

Ms. Roth, thank you for being here today. 

I really do appreciate your work at the local level as well. I think 

starting out in local government is always a great advantage as 

you move on to higher levels of responsibility. So, thank you for 

that. I think that speaks very well for you. 

Thank you for being here. 

You have talked a lot with a number of different members on 

some different issues, but I know you have stated in your written 

testimony also that you really do want to work very closely with 

the Inspector General. 

Senator CARPER. Senator, can I interrupt? 

Senator ERNST. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. We have some Future Farmers of America 

(FFA) back here that traveled down from Delaware. I just need to 

pop back and welcome them, and Senator, I will be right back. 

Senator ERNST. You pop right out and visit with those Future 

Farmer of America. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

Senator ERNST. I know how important agriculture is. 

Senator CARPER. Yes, you do. [Laughter.] 

Senator ERNST [presiding]. Take your time, Senator Carper. 

I apologize for that, Ms. Roth. 

Ms. ROTH. No, that is good. 

Senator ERNST. FFA is very important. 

So I just would like, in your words, how would you work with the 

Inspector General to ensure that some of the mistakes that have 

been made in the past with impermissible spending—of course, we 

have all seen, all the media from years past. But what will you do 

to increase that transparency, work with the Inspector General, 

just to ensure that these types of mistakes do not happen again? 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

I think our partnership and joint relationship with the Inspector 

General has been a central tool for our organization. And the Acting Inspector General and I meet regularly, currently, at least 

monthly, if not more frequently, and are in frequent communication. 

Something that we want to ensure for the organization is that 

everyone understands that it is their responsibility and duty to acknowledge and recognize if something is not working well in the organization that they need to speak up. We want that relationship 
15 

to be transparent. We want the employees to not feel any barriers 

when it comes to going to the IG or working with the IG, as well 

as responding to their investigations and inquiries or general requests for information. 

So to the extent that I can work with their team in the IG’s office, with both being in front of our senior leadership but as well 

as our two-downs, as I call them, but our sort of middle-level manager, and creating those opportunities is what we seek and are actively doing that in partnership. I see that as a central tool for us 

to see, quite frankly, the things we cannot see at the top level 

often. 

Senator ERNST. That is very good. I appreciate that. 

And you seem to be very engaged, not only with the leadership 

but also with those that work in the organization, and I appreciate 

that very much. 

I will go back to what Senator Carper was saying, as making 

sure that you express your gratitude to those that are doing a great 

job within the organization. So I believe that is extremely important. So, thank you for that. 

Thank you for your frequent communications with those that you 

work with. That is one of the greatest problems, I think, we face 

in the Federal Government—that we are not communicating. And 

that is the bottom-line key to success. So, thank you for doing that. 

I will move to a different topic, and it is about the surplus firearm donation program, and this is one that is little-known or littletalked-about, I think, but is very important. 

On June 12 of this year, the GSA Office of the IG released a report investigating GSA’s surplus firearm donation program, and in 

this particular report the IG found that the program’s data management controls were inadequate. Additionally, the inventory 

records were not complete or accurate, and that increased the risk 

that donated firearms are unmonitored and vulnerable to theft, 

loss, mismanagement, or unauthorized use. So the IG made several 

recommendations to improve that process. 

If you can, can you please provide information on the steps that 

have been taken by GSA to increase the safety and recording processes of the program, if you happen to know those, if you can detail 

those for us? 

Ms. ROTH. I can give you a few in general. 

One is really we have strengthened our data management activity within GSA, and in the office in particular, our Office of Governmentwide Policy, we have a data team there. And our ability to 

understand the tools that are available for tracking similar types 

of activities and deploy them is very strong at this stage, and so 

I think we have a good team there that is going to help that office 

improve their tracking of that type of property. 

I think it is an essential thing that we understand where it goes 

because we do remain and continue to have responsibility for that 

property even though we allow for the use of it. 

Senator ERNST. And has that been computerized? I think that 

was one of the original complaints, too—that many of the inventory 

records were done by paper. 

Ms. ROTH. They are working on that currently. 

Senator ERNST. OK. 
16 

Ms. ROTH. They have had experience with this. So I feel very 

confident that they will be able to put a good system in place as 

well as working with the State agencies that are the main contacts 

for this office in particular, for that type of disposal, and ensuring 

that we have a tracking through that office as well, as they are further down the road, providing that equipment to local law enforcement entities. 

Senator ERNST. OK. Very good. 

Ms. ROTH. So it is both practices. 

Senator ERNEST. Yes, this is an important program. I think we 

need to make sure that it is being managed correctly. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator ERNST. It sounds like the steps are being implemented. 

I would love to have future updates on that particular program 

if you would be willing to provide those to the Committee. 

Ms. ROTH. Absolutely. We will definitely give an update, at least 

in the next 90 days, in terms of where we are with the program 

and where we are expecting it to go. 

Senator ERNST. Fantastic. Thank you so much. 

And, Ms. Roth, then if confirmed as Administrator, what do you 

see as the greatest challenges right now that are facing GSA, and 

how do you see those challenges in your role moving forward? 

Ms. ROTH. There is a couple of areas that we are very focused 

on, and some of them we have talked about today, and I am sure 

we will continue to talk about them. 

In terms of our property disposal activity as well as property 

management, I think that there are very good activities that are 

in place now with us talking with the Committee as well as with 

OMB, in looking both from a policy perspective but as well as how 

we are managing to reduce the footprint perspective. There are 

some very strong ideas and efforts in place, and I think that is giving us stronger data to be able to manage, too. 

We are currently going through, in terms of our acquisitions 

area, what we call Multiple Award Schedules (MAS) transformation, and I think that that is going to help us in terms of supporting small businesses as well as greater visibility and understanding of the buying activity that is happening through our 

schedules. 

Senator ERNST. OK. 

Ms. ROTH. And, hopefully, we are improving that for both our 

customers as well as the private sector. 

And then something that we have talked about, obviously, this 

morning has been employee engagement. In this respect, we have 

been very focused on what we call our Employee Viewpoint Survey. 

And this year we have actually taken some very strong steps 

from a senior leadership perspective to engage and be more 

proactive over how we are engaging with employees, and right now 

we are going through a series of sharing those strategies with 

our—among the senior leadership team in evaluating how successful they were, and we did quarterly evaluations along the way. 

So we feel that that is the right direction, but we have more 

work to do in that respect. 

Senator ERNST. OK. I think that is fantastic. 

I am just going to quickly followup and thank you for your time. 
17 

Senator CARPER [presiding]. You do not have to quickly. You can 

take your time. 

Senator ERNST. I have another hearing ongoing right now. 

So, Ms. Roth, thank you very much for your testimony today. I 

am excited to learn as you progress through the confirmation hearing. And, again, working with the folks in GSA, I am excited to 

hear how that goes. 

You mentioned a word just a minute ago—‘‘customer.’’ I love 

that, that you acknowledge that there are customers out there. 

And one thing I think is extremely important is that even though 

it may be other Federal agencies, or whatever those people might 

be, they are our customers and we need to make sure that we are 

working well with them. 

So, thanks for your time today, your testimony. I look forward to 

moving on your confirmation, Ms. Roth. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Senator, thank you so much. Thanks so much 

for just being such an active participant in this Committee. 

Senator ERNST. Lots of flattery. [Laughter.] 

Senator CARPER. Actually, it is true. 

When I came here to the Senate about 15 years, 14 years ago, 

I had some idea of how it operated and what you needed to do to 

be successful here, how the place ran, and the rules, and so forth. 

One of the things I anticipated, or knew before, was this place runs 

in part on relationships. 

And one of the things that grows out of relationships is trust. 

Around here, if you trust somebody, you can get a lot done. If you 

do not have much trust, it is hard to get anything done. 

Another thing that is important is integrity. I do not know who 

it was; maybe it was Alan Simpson, the Senator from Wyoming, 

who used to say, integrity, if you have it, nothing else matters. 

So those are the things that help guide me. 

I just remember every day how much more we could get done 

here if we had trust and to build trust, the kind of trust that I 

think I enjoyed with Senator Coburn, who was here for many 

years. And his successor, Senator Lankford, is going to be a great 

addition to our Committee. I think Senator Ernst is going to be a 

real star here, too. 

But trust in relationships is so important. 

I had breakfast this morning with one of our new Senators and 

just had a chance just to get to know him better. 

But what are some things that you learned in the short time that 

you have been at GSA? Maybe revelations. Maybe some things that 

just you kind of anticipated before but you were not really sure of. 

Just give us some early lessons that you have gleaned. 

Ms. ROTH. One thing that has been of interest, and I have shared 

this with others, is how much time our employees and management 

team spend thinking about other agencies. And I think they would 

be surprised to know it, in fact, but a lot of our work is built on 

how well we are doing at supporting the activities of other agencies. 

And having that perspective has really been eye-opening for me. 

I knew that GSA had a long stretch, or reach, in terms of its mission and goal, but to really get inside of the organization and see 
18 

how much time and how much knowledge our agency has about the 

ongoings around the Federal Government in general has been very 

eye-opening overall. 

I was fortunate, and I really benefitted from starting as Deputy 

Administrator and having a chance to work with the previous Administrator because it did give me a strong platform of understanding of both where the agency had been in terms of some of 

the challenges I saw coming in but, also, the opportunities. 

And the areas that we have really focused on, such as with acquisitions and being creative about how we are creating acquisition 

tools for other agencies, is something that I am not sure could be 

replicated anywhere else. So that is another example, as well. 

I have just been, I guess, overall just impressed with the level 

of reach that we have and the level of proactive efforts that are in 

place there. 

Senator CARPER. A friend of mine told me about a conversation 

he heard of, and I guess it was at the National Aeronautics and 

Space Administration (NASA), one of the NASA installations down 

at Cape Canaveral a couple years ago. 

And someone that he knew had visited NASA and was there in 

the evening. And it is a sprawling operation—a lot of people who 

work there during the day, not so much at night. 

And he was walking through one of the spaces and came across 

a custodian, and he said to the custodian, hello. And he said, what 

do you do here? 

And the custodian said, I am helping to put a man on the moon. 

And that speaks to me of a real sense of team and purpose, that 

the custodian felt that he was part of the team to put a man, in 

that case, on the moon. 

Talk to us about a sense of team, creating a sense of team and 

a sense of purpose at GSA. How do you build on the work that Dan 

Tangherlini began with the reorganization effort that he launched? 

And do that in the context of building a sense of team and purpose. Will you do that? 

Ms. ROTH. Sure. And we have—it actually is almost like a new 

team in some ways. We have had some management changes overall, and I think you would find among our team that we all have 

the same vision in terms of how do we both become—continue to 

become more efficient for our support around government and overall, and how do we support across each other. 

So, if you came to our space, you would see that we have an open 

workspace. And from my vantage point, where I actually sit, I can 

make eye contact with the Public Building Service Commissioner, 

and I can make eye contact with the Acquisitions Commissioner. 

And it has allowed for us to go down this path and journey together, as it were. 

So, as I have a concept in terms of maybe a direction that we 

can take with buildings, or some questions I have about how we 

are moving forward with certain policies and efforts, I can walk 

across the room because I can see that they are there, and we can 

go into a huddle room and talk and collaborate and share very easily in that respect. 
19 

I think that has been one of the strongest aspects of our team 

overall because we all came in around the same time, and so we 

have been building together. 

So in terms of building a sense of team, we have also spent quite 

a bit of time together as well. So we have three-a-week senior team 

meetings as well as a larger weekly senior team meeting, and we 

are sharing our goals in general. 

There has probably been a time where GSA could be seen as 

more isolated and siloed in its management. Now that management activity is very much collaborative. And it has produced efforts such as what we call Total Workplace, in which we are able 

to bring to others that are other agencies the resources that we 

have that cut across the Buildings Commission as well as the Acquisitions Commission. 

So our team has been able to strengthen in terms of how we collaborate, and that collaboration leads to real policy that we can 

apply, as well. 

Senator CARPER. Before I turn to Senator McCaskill, let me just 

raise an issue you have already discussed with Senator Lankford 

during the time he was here, and that is the National Strategy for 

Property. 

And I have been pleased with how both the Bush and the Obama 

Administrations have taken an evermore-active role in property 

management. We talked about that some already. 

And you have spoken to this, but I want to revisit it again. How 

can we ensure that the good work in property reform, spearheaded 

both by the last administration and by this administration, continues on into the next administration, the next year and a half, 

and beyond? 

I feel one of our jobs here is oversight. And for years we get— 

as Senator McCaskill knows, every 2 years we get, at the beginning 

of a new Congress, GAO’s high-risk list. 

And people say, what is that? 

And I say, it is the high-risk areas where we are going to waste 

money if we are not careful at where we are wasting money. 

For years, our real property management has been on their highrisk list. And one of my goals while I am here in the U.S. Senate 

is to get it off. And it is not something I can do or Dr. Coburn can 

do or Senator McCaskill or others can do by ourselves. So it is a 

real team effort. 

And I really hope to see from you a kind of—‘‘fervor’’ is probably 

the wrong word, but I am going to use it. 

Passion. Passion for us to continue the work that has begun and 

to take it to the next level. There is such a great opportunity to 

save money here. 

The other one is strategic sourcing. There are huge opportunities 

there. 

But just talk to us about your passion for continuing to build on 

the work that has been done on saving money by better management in the way we use and acquire our space. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

One of the key aspects there is data integrity as well as data 

transparency. And to the extent that we continue to build on our 

real property database, working with other agencies in terms of 
20 

how we are defining the assets themselves and the attributes of the 

assets, I think it is key for us to understand what is really the volume and world that we are working with and managing, as well 

as the process itself. 

And I know that we are talking with the Committee regularly 

about what are some options, potentially, for improving and 

streamlining on the process of property disposal, as well as how do 

we work with GSA, work with other agencies on their disposal 

planning and activity. 

The national real strategy planning effort is going to give us 

strong insight, and we are working very closely with OMB on this 

effort. But from this effort, we are getting from agencies their plan 

for both their current assets as well as the disposal of any assets 

that come out of that, as well as real Reduce the Footprint targets. 

And, with that, we can have stronger data in terms of applying 

and overlapping that information with our portfolio planning activity overall. 

So I think that we are in a very rich place in terms of taking 

advantage of the tools that we have, of the information that we 

know, and really moving in a strong way going forward. 

I think this is a huge responsibility for all of us at this stage and 

one that we want to spend as much time as we can both defining 

success and getting there, as well. 

Senator CARPER. Thanks. 

We have been joined by Senator McCaskill, a person who is as 

passionate about these issues as anybody I know and who is a 

great member of this team, and we are delighted to yield to her at 

this time. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCASKILL 

Senator MCCASKILL. Welcome. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And congratulations on your appointment. 

I have worked extensively, and sometimes combatively, with your 

predecessors, not Mr. Tangherlini but prior to that. You may be 

aware of the history, way before the conferences in Las Vegas, we 

had done hearings about really bad bonus situations, really bad offthe-cuff hiring of PR experts when there was a bump, and immediately, the default position was let’s hire somebody for a ridiculous 

amount of money to tell us what to say in Kansas City. 

And I do not do this other than the fact that I think GSA is one 

of the agencies that gets less oversight than other agencies because 

what you do is not as transparent to everyone, especially American 

citizens. You really are, in a way, the business center—— 

Ms. ROTH. Right. 

Senator MCCASKILL [continuing]. For government, particularly 

when it comes to real estate but also for other things. 

And so I have a tendency to like focusing on areas that maybe 

do not get enough focus, which is one of the reasons that I am sure 

I am on some list over there, that I am always on you guys about 

what you are doing. 

So let me start with the Federal Acquisition Database. I cannot 

tell you how many hearings I have sat in this room for on the Federal Acquisition Database. 
21 

In 2009, the Federal Government had more than a dozen databases relevant to contracting, and contracting is something that I 

have spent an awful lot of time on. These databases were managed 

by five different agencies and supported by eight different contractors. I think anybody who is listening to those facts realizes we had 

a problem. 

In an effort to bring it all together, there is an attempt being 

made to integrate all of these databases and envision one system 

where everyone will have a portal to access the scoping, letting, 

and managing of contracts, particularly the awarding of contracts, 

the systems for award management. 

Now, unsurprisingly, like most IT projects everywhere and particularly in the Federal Government, this one has seen cost estimates double and deadlines fall by the wayside. 

I know there has been some progress, and I appreciate that this 

is a huge undertaking. I know that GSA has done a whole lot of 

stakeholder outreach and that you have technical experts in charge 

of the acquisition program. 

But we are 6 years into this effort. If this were private sector, 

this would be failure. Six years is a long time, and my understanding is we are still not there yet. 

So are there still legacy systems being operated by agencies other 

than GSA? 

Ms. ROTH. There would be; yes is the short answer. 

Senator MCCASKILL. And at Dan Tangherlini’s confirmation, I 

asked him about this. I am hoping I do not have to ask too many 

more. But I asked for the timeline for completion, and he was pretty noncommital. 

Do you have any sort of timeline for the retirement of legacy systems and full GSA oversight of the contractor information database? 

Ms. ROTH. The system, as you know, as it is being built out, is 

in an iterative stage. And so we are building as we go and testing 

and ensuring that what we build onto it is actually being successful. Its completion date at this stage is—I believe it is 2018, but 

it will be dependent upon how successful each stage is. 

I think that there was likely a lot of time lost on the front end, 

sort of putting all of those efforts together and then turning on the 

switch, just to find out that it was not going to work well. 

Some of the efforts that have been put in place at the agency, 

both in terms of the changing of the management structure as well 

as taking a different development approach, I think are important 

parts to it actually being successful as we make those transitions. 

And it is something that we have learned more about, obviously, 

over the past year, and we have been able to see that success happen but also watching it closely. And I think that we have stronger 

oversight in terms of how well the project is actually producing. 

Senator MCCASKILL. What about a timeline? 

Ms. ROTH. Well, as I said, the completion date at this point is 

2018, but we continue to watch and monitor the development of the 

system itself. 

Senator MCCASKILL. What part of 2018? 

Ms. ROTH. I cannot say as I sit here, Senator, but I will definitely 

followup. 
22 

Senator MCCASKILL. I am going to withhold judgment on your 

confirmation until I get a date. Now that date may not end up 

being the date, but I just have the sense—I mean, this is 2018. 

We have been at this for 6 years. You are telling me it is going 

to be another 21⁄2 years. Eight and a half years? To integrate databases? 

Ms. ROTH. The only thing that I can say is that—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. And by the way, just so everybody understands, the cost has gone from 96 million to 181 million, that we 

know of right now. 

So is it more than 181? In the long run, is it going to be more 

than 181 if we are going to 2018? 

Ms. ROTH. I will definitely assure you that this is a very important item, and I will certainly followup with your office and make 

sure that we are being very clear in terms of what we are expecting 

from timelines as well as the cost overall. We, obviously, have been 

very inefficient. It has not hit the success that we need it to hit. 

And we are addressing that. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Contractors are making a lot of money off 

this deal, and I just do not sense that there is urgency. 

And I have tried to be cajoling. I have tried to be inquisitive. I 

have tried to be knowledgeable. And none of that has worked. I 

think I have to just get downright mean to get a date and to get 

a price and to hold people to it. 

Ms. ROTH. Sure. 

Senator MCCASKILL. This just would not happen in the private 

sector; it would not happen. And there really is not a good excuse 

for it to happen here, not when we double the price. 

And it is incredibly important that we integrate these data systems because it is everybody’s excuse for bad contracting. Invariably, when we find a bad contract, they go, well, we just do not 

have transparency, and we have bad data, and blah, blah, blah. 

And if we have this system, it kind of rips away a lot of the excuses for bad contracting that costs our country billions every year. 

This is real money. 

So you are just kind of unlucky to be at the end of a long line 

of GSA Administrators who I feel like have never been as focused 

on this as they should be. I know it is about putting out fires every 

day. 

Let me also ask you about the Office of Personnel Management 

(OPM) Credit Monitoring Contract. Do you know if OPM made any 

effort to procure those services from a contractor on the GSA schedules before they went to a one-source contract following the breach 

at OPM? Do you have any knowledge about that? 

Ms. ROTH. I am not sure, Senator. I know that there were some 

staff-level conversations, but ultimately, the process that OPM took 

in that respect I am not aware. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, if you would check for us, we would 

like to know that. We are trying to figure out how a company that 

had been identified as having very bad behavior in Afghanistan 

changes its name, is currently under investigation for over $135 

million in overpayments at the Department of Defense (DOD), and 

still gets a sole-source contract to fix the breach at OPM. 
23 

It is a little troubling to me. I know we needed something to happen quickly. But to hire a company that has that kind of track 

record on a sole-source basis? 

So I am trying to backtrack and see what effort did they make 

to do due diligence, and whether or not they tried to access standing contracts on this that are available on the GSA schedule. It 

would be very helpful for me as I try to make the Office of Personnel Management uncomfortable like I am making you uncomfortable today. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes, Senator. 

Senator MCCASKILL. I know that the Chairman and the Ranking 

Member are going to focus on this in the hearing, but I think that 

we need to understand—I know we are going to have a hearing on 

this next week. 

We need to understand how the State Department is getting a green light on a security training facility that is going to cost $170 

million extra because they want it close to D.C. That is a lot of 

money, $170 million, to be close to D.C. 

I know we want to get to the bottom of it next week, but whatever information you can get to this Committee prior to that hearing as to what role GSA has or does not have, in terms of your ability to say no, or to stop, or to go: Wait a minute. What kind of costbenefit analysis are we doing on proximity to D.C. with that kind 

of price tag? 

I know that this Committee would appreciate it as we prepare 

for that hearing. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator CARPER. And, thank you for your passion. 

When I was a Congressman, I used to hold a bunch of town hall 

meetings, and sometimes 20 or 30 people would come; sometimes 

100 people would come. We did a lot of them. 

And at one of my most memorable town hall meetings was a lady 

who said—Claire, she said—we had a discussion on budgets and 

spending and so forth, and she said: I do not mind paying taxes. 

I just do not want you to waste my money. 

That is what she said: I do not mind paying taxes. I just do not 

want you to waste my money. 

And one of my takeaways—I remember that to this day, and I 

have had a passion for not wanting to waste money. 

Senator McCaskill is a former State auditor. She shares that 

passion. Dr. Coburn and Senator Lankford and others, we do not 

want to waste money, and we are passionate about it, and we try 

to use our passion to infuse our passion into people who sit at this 

desk—— 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER [continuing]. And to provide leadership across 

the Federal Government. 

And I would just say to you I mentioned the word ‘‘passion’’ before. I would urge you to show and demonstrate and exhibit real 

passion for these issues. It is all well and good to be cool, calm, and 

collected, but we also need to be, from time to time, passionate. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Sometimes maybe we are too passionate. 

Senator CARPER. Well, keep that in mind. 
24 

Ms. ROTH. Sure. 

Senator CARPER. Let’s talk about strategic sourcing. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. And maybe you can talk to us about the subject 

I discussed a lot with Dan Tangherlini and something about which 

he had a lot of passion. 

But when GAO took a broad look at strategic sourcing in 2013, 

it found that leading private sector companies managed about 90 

percent of their spending through what we call strategic sourcing. 

But the four Federal agencies that GAO examined, I think they 

only managed maybe 5 percent, collectively, through strategic 

sourcing. Five percent. 

And let me just ask what progress have we made since then, and 

what next steps would you plan for further increasing strategic 

sourcing? 

And are there some instances where it just makes no sense? 

Maybe there are. 

But where are we making some progress? What are the next 

steps that you plan for increasing strategic sourcing? And if there 

are some areas it does not make any sense, give us some examples 

of what those might be? 

Ms. ROTH. Well, in terms of strategic sourcing, we have really 

been working very strongly on this effort, with OMB certainly, and 

actually believe that it is a very important opportunity for the Federal Government overall to leverage its buying power. And so to 

the extent that with—internally, we have organized our acquisition 

activity around categories, known as Category Management, and 

an important structural approach to strategic sourcing as well. 

And something that we believe is very vital here is the increase 

of knowledge, both for us internally and then making that available to the Federal agencies that we work with. It can be very 

helpful for us. 

In terms of strategic sourcing, if there is any place that we are 

missing opportunity for efficiencies, it is an approach to buying 

power. And what we find is that every time that we improve on, 

as well as pursue, a strategic sourcing effort across Federal Government, we are seeing those cost savings. 

So this is an area that we actually are stepping out very strongly 

on. As I said, we have organized our teams around, meaning identifying management leads internally, ensuring that we are—that our 

teams that have the training and staff that have the training are 

aligned in the right way, and then also working across the board 

with other agencies as well. 

And something else that plays into this is the acquisition gateway that we are putting in place, which is also another tool that 

we believe is going to help agencies have a stronger understanding 

around the prices, both market data as well, as well as knowledge 

around the items that they look to pursue and purchase. 

But having strategic sourcing means that we are utilizing our 

borrowing power, leveraging from that, and really driving the market to ensure that we are getting the products and pricing that we 

need to get to the best value. 
25 

Senator CARPER. When you get push-back, or we will say a lack 

of passion, for pursuing strategic sourcing, what are some of the excuses that you get, and how do you deal with that? 

Ms. ROTH. Well, I think oftentimes we will hear that the products are too different in order to afford to actually have the strategic sourcing, that they are too varied a population that is actually 

managing or selling, or vendors that are selling these products. 

But, ultimately, we have found support, as well, from the private 

sector in terms of pursuing this approach. It is an approach that 

makes sense in terms of any large entity. 

And the Federal Government itself is spending millions on similar types of products and items, year over year, and not getting the 

best value out of it. 

So we do have some voices that are detractors from that. But understanding what the needs are for the marketplace, as well as for 

agencies, and really speaking to that and making the items and 

products available is a key part. 

Senator CARPER. OK. Thanks. 

Senator McCaskill is passionate about a number of things, including contracting, and we have talked with her. I promise you, 

when you come back before this Committee, you will hear about it 

again. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. So just make sure that you really button down 

and continue to do good work there. 

And I would urge you to get back to her in writing and maybe 

personally. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. 

Senator CARPER. Just to say: you raised this issue, and this is 

what we are going to do; this is my deadline. 

I find it is very helpful for myself and for my family, for the folks 

I work with, to set goals, deadlines, and then just try to make sure 

that we are accountable to that. 

So you probably do the same thing, and I would urge you to do 

it in the area that she has raised. 

I am going to just go back and talk a little bit about—and we 

have already dealt with this a little bit, but I just want to revisit 

it again if I could. 

In your opening statement, you gave a broad overview of the procurement initiative that is called—I think it is called Category 

Management that GSA is working on with OMB. 

Can you give us a concrete example of how this initiative would 

work with a particular good or service? What will be different with 

the way that an agency buys something through Category Management? And what results should the taxpayers see? 

Ms. ROTH. Sure. In terms of Category Management, it is probably best in terms of the agencies themselves. It is understanding 

that it is not solely about pricing although lower prices is what we 

expect out of the process overall. But in terms of the knowledge of 

the decisions that individuals are making as they make purchasing 

decisions is, I think, the key opportunity here. 

We have within our organization, as I referred to earlier, organized our activities around the main 10 categories, and one of our 

earlier examples is office supplies as well as professional services. 
26 

With professional services, we have identified a senior management lead who has a strong knowledge both about contracting as 

well as the activities in professional services. That means that she 

is in a position of both understanding where the market is currently, as well as where it is going, and ensuring that her team is 

doing that research. 

The more work that we can do on the front end for that category 

means that the contracting professionals from other agencies can 

rely on that information and use those various sources. So they will 

have items such as prior contractual agreements. They will see the 

tools around the Federal Government that are available. They will 

have access to information regarding purchasing activity as well as 

prices paid on certain items, as well. 

So, from a tool perspective, it is a very strong opportunity for the 

other Federal agencies that are looking to purchase anything 

from—what did you say earlier? Toilet paper to—— 

Senator CARPER. Technology. 

Ms. ROTH. Technology, that is right. It is a strong opportunity in 

that respect. 

And us organizing the team and the staff through that same vantage point means that we will have stronger data on the front end 

and be able to make quick purchase but also more informed purchases. 

And OMB is seeking to develop the policies that are stretching 

that across government, and we have the Acquisitions Council who 

is really leading that effort across government, as well. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thanks. 

Maybe the last question I am going to ask deals with Presidential transition. 

I remember once being at a summit in Central America, hosted 

by the President of Costa Rica, and who later won a Nobel Peace 

Prize. And he had invited the presidents of all the Central American countries to come, about 20 years ago, to try to figure out how 

they could live in peace. They had all kinds of guerilla wars and 

insurrections and attempts to overthrow other countries’ governments. And Oscar Arias Sanchez was his name. 

And we had just a terrific 2 or 3-day summit. 

And Jim Wright, who was Speaker of the House, asked some of 

us from the House to go down and monitor, just to be their observers, Democrats and Republicans, and I was privileged to be one of 

them. 

I will never forget talking to one of the presidents who was there. 

I do not know if it was Guatemala or El Salvador or Honduras, one 

of those countries. 

And he said to me these words; at the end of the summit, he 

said, in America you have elections every 4 years. Somebody wins; 

somebody loses. And you just have a transition, and the next person becomes president. That is it. 

He said, we have never done that. We have never had a peaceful 

transition from one president to the other in the history of our 

country. 

Well, since then they have, but it was a long time to get there. 
27 

What did Winston Churchill say about democracy? The worst 

form of government devised by wit of man, except for all the rest. 

Think about that. 

We have a couple of people, actually good friends of mine, who 

are highly admired public servants, who spend a fair amount of 

time not just thinking about Presidential transitions but working 

on them. And one of them is a fellow named Ted Kaufman. 

Ted used to be Chief of Staff to Joe Biden when Joe was our Senator from the State of Delaware. And when he went off to become 

Vice President, our Governor nominated and appointed to be interim Senator for 2 years, Vice President Biden’s former Chief of 

Staff, Ted Kaufman, and he served as Senator for 2 years, interim 

Senator before Chris Coons was elected. 

But Ted Kaufman, one of the things he worked on those 2 years 

he was here was Presidential transition, to make sure we do a better job so that we do not wait until like the day after the election 

and say, now what we do, but we actually start working months 

and months ahead of time to better ensure that there will be a 

smooth transition given all the challenges that we face in this 

country and this world. 

A fellow who used to be Governor and succeeded me as Chairman of the National Governors Association (NGA), one of my best 

friends from those days, Mike Leavitt, former Governor of Utah, 

former Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), but Mike 

was the head of the transition team for Mitt Romney leading up 

to the election of the last president and did a whole lot of work, 

led a whole lot of work on that team in case Governor Romney had 

won. Then they would have been better able to assume the new responsibilities. 

But Senator Johnson, our Chairman of our Committee, and I 

have sponsored a bill inspired by the works of former Senator Ted 

Kaufman and former Governor/former Secretary Mike Leavitt, and 

we actually named the legislation after them. It attempts to perfect 

and improve on the earlier work of Senator Kaufman. Several of 

the provisions clarify and strengthen the role that GSA has long 

played in helping to coordinate transition efforts. 

And this may not be something you spend a whole lot of time 

thinking about given everything you are learning and getting your 

head around in your role as acting head of GSA. But can you give 

us any thoughts about where GSA is today in standing up its transition team? What role do you expect that will play, that you will 

play as Administrator, in ensuring that the transition planning 

goes smoothly regardless of who the next president might be? 

Ms. ROTH. Yes. I believe the transition opportunities that we 

have at GSA, in the legislation that was set out over 50 years ago 

at this point, is a great opportunity for us. 

And we kicked off our efforts a few months ago in terms of bringing in a senior executive who previously has worked in several capacities in GSA and has a strong track record of execution and success. And, in fact, yesterday we had a town hall with our local office, at our main office, central office, as well as our National Capital Region, with the staff, with the staffs in general. 

I think this is a tremendous role that we play and tremendous 

opportunity to ensure that as the Federal Government changes 
28 

hands that that is done in a way that is streamlined for the American public. And so there are some very critical efforts there, but 

I think the themes of early planning, organized planning, and 

learning from the past is very key. 

And we have been fortunate that we do have some senior executives who have gone through this process, who continue to share 

their knowledge with the organization, as well as bring in new employees that have not had the experience but teaching them as 

well. 

I think that anything we can do to start those processes as early 

as possible, be clear about what the path forward is, and really 

have a strong project plan is key. And so we have started that effort, and it is going well. And we have some more social interactive 

tools that are allowing for us to engage and inform the agency, as 

well, for setting expectations. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Good. I have one last question, maybe 

two, but the first will be I am just going to ask you to think out 

loud for us about what you might have learned, what takeaways 

you may take out of the room because of the interaction you had 

with our colleagues here today, what are maybe some things that 

have been reinforced in your mind, if you are confirmed and have 

the chance to serve as our Senate-confirmed Administrator at GSA. 

The other would be just to say I am going to give you a chance, 

as I did all witnesses when I was Chairman—and Senator Johnson 

now does this as the current Chairman—and that is just to give 

you a couple minutes to say any concluding words or thoughts that 

you would like to put on the record before we wrap this up and 

head for the rest of our day. 

But, first of all, what have you gained from this today and then 

maybe just any other thoughts you have that you would like to 

close with? 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. 

I think it is clear from today that we continue to have a very 

strong partnership with the Committee and that we have very 

thoughtful, as well as passionate, members that we can work with 

and rely on but that are very interested in our policies and our activities, which is very important for us in terms of, yes, we will do 

the executing, but we do need partnerships around policy. 

I have heard all of the messages from our conversation today and 

will ensure that these remain at the top of my list of activities. 

And, especially, I think the point was really brought home with 

the conversation with Senator McCaskill around the fact that we 

have had inefficiencies in terms of how government is managed 

overall, and we need to deal with those. We need to have solutions 

that are clear, that are thoughtful on the front end, so that they 

are not continuing to be wasteful and that we are aggressive in following through. And I think that is an important message that has 

come from today. 

And I look forward to the continued partnership with this Committee. 

In concluding, I would just want to reiterate my commitment to 

the mission that we have at GSA, and that is to provide the best 

value in real estate, in acquisition, and technology services for the 

Federal Government and the American people. I think that we 
29 

have a very strong mission that really does help to move the efforts 

of Federal Government overall. And to the extent that we can be 

successful and clear in where our efforts are, it will help the Federal Government across the board. 

I am committed as a senior leader in Federal Government to the 

roles that we play with our Federal partners and customers, but 

as well as the communities in which we impact. And I want to be 

at the forefront of having really reshaped and defined that relationship with the Federal Government and local government that we 

have had in the past. 

So I want to thank also the Senators, Senator Carper as well as 

the Committee, as well. I have had a chance to meet with a number of the Members, and it has been very important for me to understand their perspective and what I need to focus on. 

And then, finally, I want to thank my staff, as well as family and 

friends, that have been very helpful through this process. Having 

made the transition to come back to Washington with my family 

and having the opportunity to serve this government, this president, the American people is a tremendous opportunity, and I will 

take that effort seriously every day. 

Senator CARPER. Good. Thank you for those words. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. Last couple of thoughts. When Jeh Johnson was 

confirmed as the Secretary of Homeland Security, he made a point 

of visiting Capitol Hill and to meet with the committees, chairs, 

ranking members in the House and in the Senate, on the many 

committees and subcommittees that have oversight—way too many 

committees and subcommittees that have jurisdiction over the Department of Homeland Security. It was a smart move on his part. 

And some folks knew him from before, given his work as legal 

counsel at DOD, but a lot of people did not know him well. And 

it just gave a chance to get to know him better and develop that 

sense of trust. 

I talked earlier that it is so important to have a sharing of priorities. It can only help. 

I would urge you to call Jeh Johnson if you are confirmed. I 

would call him the first week after you are confirmed and just say, 

a guy from Delaware told me that you did a very nice job just 

reaching out. 

He would literally be maybe in one of the House office buildings, 

walking down the hall, going to meet with somebody, and he went 

by an office of someone who he knew was on one of his committees 

or subcommittees, on which DHS was part of their jurisdiction. He 

would just go in unannounced, to say, I was just passing by and 

just wanted to say hi. 

And if the member was there, they would, say, chat for a few 

minutes. If not, at least they would know that he cared enough to 

stop. It means a lot. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you. 

Senator CARPER. And another person pretty good at that is this 

guy named Tangherlini. You know him pretty well, and you may 

want to pick his brain on that, too. 

In the end, this place runs not entirely, but a lot, on relationships and trust. And there is work that we can do to help engender 
30 

1The information of Ms. Roth appears in the Appendix on page 37. 

that and build that, and there is work that you can do, too, and 

I hope you will do that. 

Our staff has given me—first of all, I want to thank our staffs, 

both on the Majority side and on the Minority side, for their work 

in working with you and preparing for this hearing. 

Ms. ROTH. I would like to thank them as well. It has been an 

important guidepost, and I appreciate everyone’s help. 

Senator CARPER. Oh, good. See, you can never say ‘‘thank you’’ 

too much. 

Ms. ROTH. Yes, sir. 

Senator CARPER. You know that. 

I think our nominee has filed responses to biographical and financial questionnaires answered pre-hearing questionnaires submitted by the Committee, had her financial statements reviewed by 

the Office of Government Ethics. And, without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record,1 with the exception 

of financial data which are on file and available for public inspection in the Committee offices. 

And the hearing record will remain open until noon tomorrow— 

that is July 24, 12 p.m.—for the submission of statements and 

questions for the record. 

You will have an opportunity to respond to the questions, and I 

would just urge you to do that promptly and fully, either in writing 

or in some cases I would do it in person. That can only help expedite this consideration. 

I turn to my colleagues to my left and my right and see if they 

have any further statements. I hear none. 

And, with that, we are going to adjourn for today and wish you 

good luck and Godspeed. Thank you. 

Ms. ROTH. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator CARPER. This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:31 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 
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