Page 1

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONER REGIONAL STANDARDS

 ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC MEETING

 + + + + +

 Wednesday

 October 1, 2014

 + + + + +

 The Public Meeting met in Suite 8E089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Meeting Facilitator

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy, 

 General Counsel

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative 

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investment Owned 

 Utilities 

JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation 

JOHN HURST, Lennox International

MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc. 

CHARLES McCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning 

 Contractors of America 

JON MELCHI, HARDI 

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company
Page 2

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

PRESENT: (cont'd)

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council

DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy, 

 General Counsel

BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls

ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy

AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and 

 Refrigeration Institute

CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 

 Contractors - National Association 

DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises

ALSO PRESENT 

KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

Refrigeration Institute

GARY CLARK, Goodman Global* 

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting

DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy 

 Commission*

ERIC STAS, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy 

 *via teleconference 
Page 3

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:05 a.m.

3 MR. EISNER: All right, let's get

4 started so we can break. As Charlie

5 mentioned, we are going to caucus shortly and

6 then meet back in here. Then, we will hear

7 reports from the members about the variety of

8 things we were going to check on over the

9 weekend, last few days. So unless anybody has

10 an objection, we can do that now. I just

11 wanted to get a sense as to how long you

12 thought we might need.

13 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, could

14 you turn on your microphone?

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: I'm sorry. This is

16 Charlie with ACCA. Amy's not here. My guess

17 is would be less than an hour because there's

18 a couple of issues that sort of overlap for us

19 and the manufacturers and I wanted to talk to

20 the distributors. And I also don't see my

21 counterpart here yet from the contractors. 

22 But I think we shouldn't be longer than it
Page 4

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 takes for Doug to arrive.

2 MR. EISNER: Are there sufficient

3 meeting rooms for people who want to meet? 

4 People can stay here. There's a room in the

5 back, I believe. But if you think you're fine

6 with that, let's --

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 

8 Advocates, do we want to act as though we have

9 to caucus?

10 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo for the

11 manufacturers. We have nothing to talk about.

12 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary. I have

13 my mind made up, Harvey. I don't need to

14 caucus.

15 MR. EISNER: I think, Charlie, you

16 said something about wanting to talk to other

17 groups also.

18 MR. McCRUDDEN: That's correct. I

19 think it was just a chance -- I think some of

20 us are sort of both been working on similar

21 things. We want to take a temperature of

22 where people are.
Page 5

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: So if people could stay

2 in the general area and could be found.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I

4 will make an offer that you're absolutely free

5 to decline which is the offer that we have a

6 caucus of the whole off the record if that

7 would help.

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: I think I would

9 prefer to sort of not to do that yet.

10 MR. SACHS: Very well.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So I think Doug

12 usually arrives about 10, so that would be an

13 hour. Do you want to resume before that? 

14 Because he gave me some at least pointers on

15 things that people might talk about. If you

16 all are ready to go back before 10, we can do

17 that or we can wait until 10.

18 MR. SACHS: Laura, when you say

19 pointers from Doug -- 

20 MS. BARHYDT: He gave me things that

21 you all could talk about that I wouldn't be on

22 the spot.
Page 6

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Off-mic comment.)

2 MR. EISNER: That's one we don't

3 talk about.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. SACHS: The question that arises

6 is again not mine, but the caucusers like to

7 know what was on Doug's mind.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So he had said that

9 there were -- that he thought that you all

10 might want to talk some about the labels some

11 more. I don't know exactly in what respect,

12 but he thought that might be a topic to tee up

13 for first thing this morning before you all

14 had requested a caucus this morning. I'm

15 seeing puzzled looks though.

16 MR. EISNER: I mean the concept was

17 approved. It's just details and everybody

18 thought that was not going to be a problem.

19 MR. GIBBONS: It's all pending DOE

20 giving us guidance, final guidance or

21 assurance on the --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, okay. I was
Page 7

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 under the impression from him that the

2 advocates and the manufacturers still had some

3 details to work out on the labels, but if

4 that's not the case --

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think

6 we're in violent agreement.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Why don't we break? I

9 will stay in the room if people are ready to

10 get back together early we can find everybody

11 as long as you stay within a few minutes of

12 this area. And if you want to start earlier,

13 we can. Otherwise, let's assume we'll start

14 at 10 and everybody plan to be back by then.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 9:09 a.m. and

17 resumed at 10:38 a.m.)

18 MR. EISNER: Okay, are we ready to

19 get started? Anybody have anything to say?

20 MR. ELLIS: I'd like to caucus.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay, everybody is

22 quiet. All right.
Page 8

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie of

2 ACCA and I think what we did there was good. 

3 It was a good chance for us to meet before we

4 start up today and I think there was some

5 overlapping issues that impact manufacturers,

6 but also impact distributors, impact

7 contractors. And we really hadn't had a

8 chance from last week to get together and see

9 if we're in alignment. And I think that was

10 important because that will streamline things

11 now.

12 The issues that I was concerned

13 about, and I don't think we've reached an

14 agreement on it yet, was the scope of the

15 record keeping, Southwest, Southeast versus

16 13s only or national. My concern -- what our,

17 ACCA's position is that it should be -- the

18 equipment installed in the Southeast and

19 Southwest. But that has potential problems

20 for the manufacturers, I think, because if

21 they're trying to mitigate a mis-rated labeled

22 product, they may want that information
Page 9

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 tracked so that they can essentially prove

2 that a certain number didn't go there.

3 We had some discussion about that

4 looking at other alternatives to just

5 Southeast, Southwest or North. And I think

6 we're going to go back. One of them was that

7 what if you just do work -- if you do work in

8 both regions, then you should -- the record9 keeping requirement should apply to you only. 

10 That way the Minnesota contractor who's never

11 going to be working in the South and only

12 going to be touching 13 SEER units essentially

13 doesn't have the record-keeping requirement. 

14 And then the contractor in Texas who is only

15 going to be -- who's not going to have access,

16 essentially, to 13 SEER units shouldn't be

17 required because essentially everything he's

18 selling is compliant.

19 The dilemma is minimizing the

20 record-keeping requirement to just really the

21 situations where it can help Doug and also --

22 help Doug in his investigation or DOE in its
Page 10

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 investigations into an alleged violation and

2 again not burden those with the record keeping

3 that's out there. Have I summed that up? 

4 Okay.

5 MR. HURST: Yes, we also talked

6 about the dilemma with cash. This is John

7 Hurst with Lennox. I'm sorry. The dilemma

8 with cash sales. Some distributors such as

9 Lennox, we do track our cash sales, not

10 because we are better. Our point of sales

11 systems were such that you have to enter a

12 customer with certain information in order to

13 accept their cash. That's a limitation of our

14 systems because we're not a retailer or have

15 not historically been a retailer. But if you

16 think about a lot of distributors that do take

17 cash sales or if you think of them as a

18 retailer like a Home Depot, Lowe's, Best Buy,

19 or your local grocery store, you have a

20 choice. You can pay with a credit card where

21 you can presumably track back to an individual

22 because you have their mailing address,
Page 11

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 probably contact information. You can also

2 walk into a Best Buy and you can swipe your

3 little key chain thing that gives you Best Buy

4 points and therefore we know that you have an

5 email address, an address, phone number. 

6 But you can also go in and buy an

7 appliance with cash. And we struggled to find

8 a retailer today that tracks the purchaser

9 through a cash transaction, whether it's a

10 Best Buy and you're buying a serialized

11 dishwasher.

12 In order to do that for a distributor, it's a

13 significant change in business process that

14 most retailers today don't -- they just don't

15 do.

16 And we --- I'll speak on behalf of

17 the distributors, correct me, because I'm not

18 supposed to really, but correct me if I say

19 this incorrectly. The distributors would need

20 more time to be able to develop a process to

21 track cash. This is not an insignificant

22 change in their business practices to all of
Page 12

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a sudden start tracking cash sales. So that

2 may be something we want to talk about in

3 terms of the amount of time. It's mitigated

4 a little bit by the fact that as we hit

5 January 1st, there's going to be a lot of

6 product manufactured in 2014 still available

7 for sale. But again, I don't want anybody to

8 underestimate the challenge in doing this and

9 being able to track those sales. Have I hit

10 that okay?

11 MR. EISNER: Do we have any

12 information on what percentages sales are

13 cash? We may have talked about this last

14 week.

15 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 

16 It varies by distributor, but industry wide,

17 20 percent is the number that I get. And that

18 could vary from one store which I have

19 described scenarios and say Detroit which is

20 almost exclusively cash over the counter

21 versus some stores which are very limited in

22 the scope of their sales.
Page 13

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Any comments,

2 reactions?

3 MR. SACHS: This is a reaction. 

4 This is Harvey. A couple of things I've heard

5 that I do want a response. One of them is, of

6 course, to note as a matter of fact. There

7 are some very inexpensive products for which

8 record keeping is required in particular

9 certain over-the-counter -- not only over-the10 counter drugs that are too often have been

11 converted to meth. And I can't even remember

12 where that class is because I just don't

13 remember.

14 MR. RAWALD: I assume you're talking

15 about pseudoephedrine?

16 MR. SACHS: Pseudoephedrine.

17 MR. RAWALD: How when you buy

18 pseudoephedrine.

19 MR. SACHS: So their onerous record20 keeping requirements have been implemented in

21 cases where public necessity was deemed to

22 require it. I'm not advocating that, but I'm
Page 14

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 just making sure that it's on the record as

2 something that's been part of the tool box in

3 some cases.

4 The other thing that I'm much more

5 interested in is Jon and John's notes about

6 there may be time to think about the --

7 because of the sell through, to think about

8 the questions of record keeping for cash

9 sales. And that means there's also time to

10 think about what those mean. And in terms of

11 Doug's needs, to some extent that can mean

12 things like if you sell for cash, you have to

13 Xerox the driver's license of the guy who

14 picked it up or whatever it is. It does not

15 necessarily mean a full-blown alteration to

16 the ERP and it's not at all clear what the

17 trajectory looks like after the sell-through

18 period. So I'm very interested in hearing

19 much more about this discussion about what, if

20 anything, needs to be done to deal with the

21 issue of cash sales.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd
Page 15

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 from AHRI. When we're thinking about this, we

2 do have to keep in mind that for personally3 identifiable information there are all kinds

4 of requirements about that record-keeping. 

5 And so to give -- those people, they don't

6 want that information because once you have

7 that personally-identifiable information about

8 an individual, there's a lot of requirements

9 about how you have to store that, protect it,

10 all those kinds of things, even destroy it.

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Thank

12 you and again this is all ingredients stirred

13 into the stew.

14 MR. MELCHI: Harvey, this is Jon

15 with HARDI. 

16 Harvey, to address your point, as I

17 think about trying to make the records easily

18 accessible for Doug in the course of an

19 investigation, for those companies that do do

20 a large OTC cash business, I think it's going

21 to be very difficult if you have a big stack

22 of scanned driver's licenses to give to DOE,
Page 16

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you would essentially have to create a filing

2 system for those which kind of defeats the

3 purpose of quick and easy.

4 MR. SACHS: Again, I'm not

5 advocating, but just trying to add ingredients

6 and I think it becomes a legitimate question,

7 a business question, of do I want to do that

8 filing system or modify my ERP. If we in fact

9 feel it's necessary to do the tracking of the

10 OTC sales. So please, I'm trying to

11 brainstorm.

12 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug, and

13 John Hurst mentioned the fact that it could

14 take time to implement. So there's always the

15 ability for the Department in implementing

16 regulations to have them be not immediate, but

17 at a time in the future if that would be

18 palatable to the group and palatable to the

19 Department, which I don't know.

20 So how much time would it take to

21 implement a change of this type?

22 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst for
Page 17

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Lennox. I don't know, Doug. I think that's

2 something we have to go back and I think it

3 depends on the distributor. Some already do

4 it. You know, where there's a distributor --

5 that 20 percent, I presume, is some have very

6 low cash sales. We have low cash sales

7 because we used to not even accept it. We

8 realized we were losing business as a result

9 of it. 

10 I would imagine that there is some

11 out there in the extreme case that 75 to 80

12 percent of their sales are cash sales and

13 that's a big process change for that

14 particular distributor. I think we have to do

15 a little homework. I can go back and poll our

16 distributors. I'd suggest the other

17 manufacturers do the same thing. And Jon, you

18 can do the same.

19 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

20 Rheem. I just want to add one more point that

21 we use 20 percent as an aggregate. Is this

22 not on? Can you hear me now?
Page 18

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So we use 20 percent as an aggregate

2 so I think it an important point that Jon

3 Melchi made is that a distributor may have a

4 branch in inner-city Chicago, Detroit is

5 another great example where 80 to 90 percent

6 of those transactions may be cash. And we

7 have to recognize that that 20 percent is an

8 aggregate, but for many branches even of a

9 distributor of which there are maybe 10,000

10 plus -- that's kind of a guess on my part. I

11 think Jon gave that number earlier. He's much

12 more the expert than I am.

13 So if that's -- there's a lot of

14 branches that that is primarily how they sell

15 their units. I think what is very key here,

16 and what I want everyone on this committee to

17 recognize, is I think we brought into this

18 room a willingness to track cash sales, but we

19 need time to do it. And so hopefully that's

20 recognized around this room. There's a

21 willingness to at least take this back and

22 discuss it with our members. So please keep
Page 19

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that in mind. I think this is a huge step

2 forward in what we're trying to achieve in

3 this negotiated rulemaking.

4 There's many other details that

5 still need to be worked out about what exactly

6 are we going to track and what are the details

7 of that record retention, etcetera. But I

8 just wanted to make sure everyone understands

9 that.

10 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. And

11 just from my point of view of what I can bring

12 back to the Department, I think it's a lot

13 easier to sell a solid record retention scheme

14 that would be phased in over time than a less

15 comprehensive scheme that can be phased in

16 now. So I guess if there's an ability to look

17 at that, that's probably more palatable to

18 those that I work with, just thinking out

19 loud. So if we can look towards that, that

20 would be very helpful.

21 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Other

22 issues that people want to talk about before
Page 20

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we --

2 MR. ELLIS: Just real quick, Neil. 

3 This is Ray from Lincoln Electric. I think we

4 want to make sure that whatever answer to the

5 record keeping is and whatever extent the

6 record keeping needs to be done, I think the

7 distributors need to play a really big part in

8 that because I would be uncomfortable coming

9 up with some plan to enforce on a distributor

10 that I don't know how onerous that might be. 

11 So I think it would be -- I don't know how

12 long that would take to get from them some

13 idea on what would be a palatable form of

14 record keeping. 

15 I know that for us, you do have to

16 be careful on what records you keep. We've

17 stayed away from some because if you have too

18 much information it gets really onerous trying

19 to keep that data and keep it secure and such. 

20 It can be very expensive as well.

21 MR. EISNER: Are there technical

22 ways to address the problem? Has anybody
Page 21

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 thought about the kinds of cards a lot of

2 stores hand out where your name and business

3 information is on it. You pay cash, they just

4 swipe that, whatever deal or distributor you

5 go to?

6 MS. MEYERS: So Neil, this is Karen. 

7 I think we need to -- those details will

8 probably vary by what business practices a

9 distributor uses. But I do think because this

10 is going to be a significant change that I'd

11 like to have some conversation about what

12 we're tracking and for how long we're

13 tracking. If this is going to be successful,

14 it needs to be, in my opinion, and if we get

15 the guidance finally from DOE out shortly that

16 I think to get all my customers on board, it

17 needs to be products limited to regional

18 standards and that would be 13 and 14 SEER

19 condensing units and package A/C units that

20 are subject to regional standards. 

21 The other thing is -- and that's

22 probably 80, 90 percent of the market. I'm
Page 22

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 kind of guessing. Don't quote me on that. 

2 And that's going to give you the most

3 information that you need. 

4 And I think we need to -- I made

5 this point last week, I think this needs to be

6 limited to three years. This is a huge

7 record-keeping shift for people in the selling

8 chain. And I think if you're going to get a

9 warranty call or you're going to get some type

10 of information where a home owner or another

11 contractor is going to have knowledge of an

12 illegal installation, it's going to probably

13 happen within the first year of that

14 installation. I think those are key points

15 that need to be met for us to have our final

16 meeting tomorrow.

17 MR. RAWALD: And Karen, this is

18 Doug. So I've been thinking of this timeline

19 for a little bit, the length of time. So one

20 of the issues is the amount of time that the

21 product could sit in life before it's

22 manufactured to when it's installed is at
Page 23

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 least of note to me, right? 

2 So if an installer installs

3 something and he has a record requirement for

4 three years, and the thing that he installed

5 three years ago and he has records for, the

6 manufacturer, if they have a three-year

7 requirement, wouldn't have that record any

8 more, right? Because it would be manufactured

9 3, 6, 10, 12 months prior to that and left the

10 hands of the manufacturer.

11 And there's no way to put a

12 requirement upon the manufacturer to base

13 their record disposal scheme upon the install

14 date because you folks would never know when

15 that would be. So the only logical method is

16 the sales date for having the record

17 disposition date. 

18 So how do I unravel that? How do I

19 make my best case that I try to keep -- that

20 I'm trying to make sure I connect all the

21 dots? How do I get there?

22 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst for
Page 24

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Lennox. Doug, do you have to have a standard

2 time period for all three entities that handle

3 the equipment, or can it be different for

4 manufacturers, distributors, and contractors? 

5 I'm thinking more of guys like Chuck, who have

6 to maintain five years' worth of paper versus

7 a manufacturer that has to maintain it on a

8 server somewhere.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right, this is Doug, so

10 we couldn't have different timelines for

11 different people in the chain.

12 MR. HURST: Could not?

13 MR. RAWALD: We could. We could. 

14 That's open. And my thought would be that the

15 less years -- you want less years on the guys

16 that are installing it, right, because they're

17 the ones who are going to have the highest

18 burden. They're the ones who are going to

19 need it the least amount of time. So if Chuck

20 installed it three years and I have his

21 records, it's likely you manufactured it four

22 years ago. So I need you to have a longer
Page 25

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 time than Chuck. That's the one kind of thing

2 as I think about this. And so there's some

3 compromises here to be had. But I guess it's

4 the kind of thing that's going on in the back

5 of my head as my wheels are turning on this.

6 MR. HURST: Speaking for my company,

7 we'd have to talk about this, but I think we'd

8 be amenable to that. There is a good chance

9 -- because of factory balancing, you may put

10 product into your own inventory for 6, 8, 12

11 months. A distributor runs on turns, so

12 they're trying to get it in and get it out as

13 fast, but they'd hold on to it longer than a

14 dealer and a dealer is typically not going to

15 be -- they can stock, but we have stocking

16 dealers, but they're not going to stock for

17 months at a time. So I think it's very

18 reasonable that the burden on the manufacturer

19 to maintain records would be obviously longer

20 than a contractor for the stated reasons.

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. That's something

22 we can definitely consider and I'll bring
Page 26

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 back. So I don't know if we want to keep

2 going down this path, but what I did in

3 response to Chuck's very salient point that I

4 probably see the tree and the ornaments a lot

5 better than everyone else, is I put together

6 the slide deck of everything we've kind of

7 discussed which would be kind of a

8 comprehensive plan. And there certainly are

9 some rough edges for us to work around. 

10 I tried to fill in some gaps with

11 things that the Department would suggest. So

12 I have that prepared here to go over if folks

13 want to kind of walk through what we've talked

14 about and where we are. And that might help

15 us kind of say okay, what do we really need to

16 talk about still? 

17 We have these two major issues, the

18 scope for the contractors and the over-the19 counter sales as well as the timeline, so

20 three issues, for record retention. But maybe

21 there are other areas that we can dispense

22 with and feel comfortable about and kind of
Page 27

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 really focus our efforts on just narrowing

2 down those and feel comfortable that we've

3 accomplished a lot here.

4 So if people would like to do that,

5 unless you have more to talk about in the

6 other issues that we caucused about this

7 morning.

8 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 

9 I think Karen touched on a lot of the concern. 

10 I think as we discussed last week over email,

11 Doug, as far as those cash transactions, it

12 would be much easier for us to track

13 condensing unit only. It's just -- you're

14 multiplying transactions at that point. And

15 oftentimes, somebody will come in for some of

16 the components that have been discussed for

17 warranty repair or something like that. I'm

18 just trying to get to something that I think

19 can be implemented effectively. 

20 And it's just a much easier sell if

21 you say okay, you only have to track say 13 or

22 14 SEER sales as opposed to all of this entire
Page 28

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 scope of transactions. Because my fear was

2 when we had discussed maybe the coils earlier

3 was a guy comes in and buys a lot of parts and

4 pieces and a coil. Those other transactions

5 don't need to be identified by the purchaser. 

6 The coil maybe does. The question was brought

7 up though, you know, that a coil is not

8 necessarily a covered product, so how does

9 that fall into the scope of this given DOE's

10 guidance on rating the systems?

11 The simpler, the better is kind of

12 the way; with an estimated 10,000 distribution

13 branches across the United States, so it's a

14 huge undertaking. So the simpler, the better,

15 I think would be our preference.

16 MR. RAWALD: No, and I hear that,

17 Jon, I do. So I'm passing around the room the

18 slide deck that I also have on the screen

19 here. Unless folks have -- as long as

20 everyone is amenable, I'd like to jump into

21 this just so we can get that teed up for

22 people to think about over lunch and maybe
Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 possibly caucus more after lunch if we need

2 to, to kind of figure out where else we are.

3 So I know we had these buckets we

4 initially looked at so as I thought about the

5 ideas that we had put together, I have

6 somewhat reorganized the buckets, but this

7 kind of covers the major area to think as we

8 look at them. So if we could turn first to

9 the basics. So all this stuff, as I mentioned

10 before, is premised upon the answer to Karen's

11 question which is the 14 SEER interpretation.

12 What I heard is everyone agrees with

13 this, everyone is comfortable with this

14 interpretation. So this is where we are with

15 the idea of 14 SEER. The least efficient

16 rating combination for a specialized model

17 condensing unit must be 14 in the Southeast

18 and Southwest regions. And then we have the

19 EER caveat as well for the Southwest. And any

20 condensing model that has a certified

21 combination that's below the regional standard

22 cannot be installed in the region. So that's
Page 30

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 how we're approaching this. So this is the

2 baseline.

3 So I'm trying to give you this here,

4 so this at least fills the gap in your mind

5 that there's no guidance from the Department

6 at the moment. Here it is. If you guys want

7 to have a formal vote and say we all agree

8 with this, if that would make you feel -- I

9 want to do whatever I can to make you feel

10 comfortable that this is the position we're

11 taking in the rule and this is what we believe

12 in, but I don't have the guidance to give you

13 yet today.

14 So I don't what would make you feel

15 better. I mean do you want to have the room

16 say we all agree with this? What would make

17 you folks feel better?

18 Karen, I guess I'm looking at you.

19 MS. MEYERS: I think if the

20 Department buys lunch for everyone today, then

21 we'll sign off on this. So if we need a

22 formal vote, I think that's good. You know,
Page 31

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we're all moving forward with a lot of

2 changes. So I think the whole premise of this

3 entire agreement depends on that.

4 MR. RAWALD: I agree.

5 MS. MEYERS: And I think that needs

6 to be stated in the record. We're going to go

7 through all these slides. We're going to see

8 areas that we've agreed on, but all of that

9 hinges upon this guidance. And I think you

10 heard from Amy, we don't want -- if this is

11 our formal notification from DOE, that's fine. 

12 I think we would rather have some guidance

13 before it gets into the CFR. So I think we

14 would rather have some official response to

15 the guidance as well. But I can live with

16 this.

17 MR. RAWALD: And Karen, I can tell

18 you I have let people know that on multiple

19 occasions very loudly and clearly.

20 MS. MEYERS: Well, since there are

21 some people in the room, I'm restating this

22 one more time.
Page 32

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: And I think Karen is

2 thinking about Ashley Armstrong who said when

3 she was being asked to be a distraction, I

4 said certainly she won't be, but if she

5 becomes one, she may not be here any longer,

6 so keep that in mind.

7 MS. MEYERS: So Ashley, just know

8 this whole reg. neg. is now riding on your

9 shoulders to success or lack thereof.

10 MR. RAWALD: She likes to feel like

11 a super hero, so you're only helping her ego,

12 Karen. 

13 So Neil, can we take a vote on this?

14 MR. EISNER: This is what I suggest

15 because everybody has said all along it

16 depends on the whole package. Let's vote on

17 each slide. When nobody has any more comments

18 they want to make on it, and if it's okay,

19 when we get through the -- she wants to ask a

20 question.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I just have a

22 question. It's on some of the comments we got
Page 33

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 in response to the other guidance and the

2 language that I think is coming from industry

3 parties or at least some of them that is being

4 suggested. 

5 It has to do with the details of

6 this which potentially impacts the language of

7 the guidance that's coming out. It doesn't

8 change the premise of this. The only thing

9 not on this slide that was brought up by the

10 comments that we received is the idea of that

11 it must be tested as a coil-only unit. And so

12 I'm going to ask someone to elaborate on that. 

13 What did you mean by that specifically?

14 MS. MEYERS: So what's your question

15 again? So what do you mean unless we test it

16 as a coil only.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right, so I think this

18 will go directly to AHRI submitted comments

19 where they submitted -- they requested we add

20 to the new guidance we put out, the line about

21 the 14 SEER to that to make sure we get a

22 final there. And the caveat was when tested
Page 34

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 as a coil only, was the insertion. It's not

2 in this particular guidance or in this

3 particular caveat as drafted.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's in the details. 

5 It doesn't necessarily change the premise and

6 obviously a coil-only rating would be the

7 least efficient. It's consistent with the

8 language on the slide. But I want to be

9 clear, did you mean that every single

10 condensing unit the least efficient going to

11 that region has to be a coil-only rating? 

12 That is my question. Yes or no?

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

14 Winningham with Allied. I think for single15 stage equipment, the answer for that would be

16 yes. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would have to

18 be, yes.

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: For other

20 equipment, I would say no.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm asking because

22 the language submitted by different people are
Page 35

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 slightly different and means different things. 

2 So my ask is what exactly? Do you want to

3 think about it and get back to me?

4 MR. HURST: No, I think it's a great

5 question because it's be careful what you ask

6 for, you might get it. And so thank you for

7 the heads up. I think we need a five-minute

8 discussion to agree on what we're specifically

9 asking for to give you better guidance.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you could do it

11 over lunch. The regional guidance hasn't come

12 out yet.

13 MR. HURST: Thank you.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry.

15 MR. HURST: You're not being a

16 distraction, Ashley.

17 MR. RAWALD: For the record, I

18 always find Ashley very helpful, especially

19 given my technical limitations which are

20 obvious.

21 So do you think we want to take time

22 now or do you want to keep going through the
Page 36

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 slide deck and think about it?

2 MR. HURST: Let's take five minutes

3 and just knock it out. Give us five minutes.

4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

5 matter went off the record at 11:07 a.m. and

6 resumed at 11:33 a.m.) 

7 MR. EISNER: Okay, is the problem

8 fixed? Karen, John, problem fixed?

9 MS. MEYERS: It's fixed.

10 MR. EISNER: That's apparent. 

11 That's got to be a new ground rule.

12 MR. AMRANE: I think as far as

13 what's on this slide here, I think we will

14 agree that we are fine with what's being

15 stated here. I think that some maybe mission

16 distending from the comments, maybe we will be

17 fine with the DOE on the guidance. And for

18 us, we meant that all the combinations and

19 whether it's a single-speed unit or whether

20 it's a variable-speed unit, that all

21 combinations must meet the regional standard. 

22 And that the rating for variable speed doesn't
Page 37

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 have to be with the coil only. It can be with

2 a blower coil. 

3 I think as far as the slide is

4 concerned we are okay. Now as far as the

5 comments we filed, maybe we need to refile

6 something. I don't know if it's better for us

7 to put this in writing with DOE.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not the lawyer

9 in the room, but this is fine for me.

10 MR. RAWALD: Right, what you're

11 telling us is sufficient as long as we

12 understand that's what you mean. I want to

13 make sure Ashley has got a full answer to her

14 question.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to

16 interpret what Karim says and I want everyone

17 to comment and/or agree or disagree with it.

18 In addition to this, that single19 stage units can only be tested with a coil20 only rating procedure. That is the addition.

21 MR. HURST: That's correct.

22 MS. MEYERS: So Ashley, that's fine.
Page 38

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think the

2 Department is ready to vote on that bullet yet

3 today. That's not to say we don't agree with

4 it. I just need to go back and compare it to

5 what's in our regs right now. But I think the

6 Department is ready to vote on the rest of the

7 bullets and I'm leaving that to Doug. But I

8 just want to make -- that is the ask, correct?

9 MS. MEYERS: So let me just ask the

10 engineers in the room. If I have a single

11 stage air conditioner, I can't test it with a

12 blower coil or that the least efficient -- I

13 mean don't we mean that the least efficient

14 rating of a single stage air conditioner must

15 be with the coil-only rating. If I have a

16 single stage A/C unit, I could have a rating

17 with a blower coil that might get it 14.5, but

18 -- right? Is that covered in that?

19 MR. LATTANZI: Karen, this is Matt. 

20 You could use your arm to rate it with a

21 blower coil.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not --
Page 39

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. LATTANZI: Well, it says tested. 

2 So you would only test single stage with a

3 coil-only unit. That doesn't exclude using an

4 arm to create a rating with a blower coil.

5 MS. MEYERS: I think that confused

6 it more. 

7 MR. RAWALD: I'm worried that we're

8 making it more difficult. So I'm not sure --

9 as I've heard from people up until this point

10 is that the folks do their test with the coil

11 only and they use the arm to then estimate

12 what the coolants would be when you add a

13 blower to the item. Am I hearing that

14 correctly, Dave?

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: For single-stage

16 equipment that is absolutely correct.

17 MR. RAWALD: And what the ask has

18 been and what I thought we had agreed to

19 ostensibly was the least efficient, whether by

20 testing -- you're testing the least efficient

21 thing or your arm, finds that it's less

22 efficient, but you still want to certify it as
Page 40

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 useful. That has to be at least 14. Right? 

2 That's what people are saying. That's what I

3 heard people say.

4 MS. MEYERS: Is that what the slide

5 says?

6 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt

7 Lattanzi. I think you need to change rated

8 back to tested and then I feel like you have

9 it right.

10 MR. RAWALD: So Matt, you're

11 referring to the bullet we just added to the

12 slide just now. Is that what you're talking

13 about?

14 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, Doug, that's

15 correct.

16 MR. RAWALD: Okay. This is giving

17 Ashley some concerns, so I may have to talk to

18 her off the record here for a moment.

19 Okay, so I'm not clear why we need

20 this bullet to be added to the discussion

21 we've had, but Ashley is telling me it's

22 causing her a concern. So we're going to have
Page 41

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to go to lunch and talk about it because I

2 can't ask the question. I'm not prepared to

3 --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So all I want to

5 know is the ask for the guidance. It has no

6 bearing on this slide whatsoever. I think 

7 you can take the bullet out. Karen wants to

8 see the words though that we're agreeing to

9 necessarily. And so all I wanted to know is

10 to clarify your comments that you submitted to

11 the coil only blower coil guidance. And

12 specifically, you added a 14 SEER sentence. 

13 And you've asked the Department to consider

14 guidance on 14 SEER. And Doug's pushing for

15 this guidance to be issued as soon as

16 possible. And for me to do that I need to

17 understand.

18 I think the ask is necessary. So

19 every -- I don't think you want the word

20 tested. Every condensing unit has to be

21 tested with the highest sales volume tested

22 combination in the report, period, in order to
Page 42

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 do it. Everything else can be rated with an

2 R after that. Right? 

3 So if you add least efficient and

4 that's not your highest sales volume, you're

5 testing twice. Are we okay with that in a

6 coil-only rating? It gets more complicated.

7 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I really

8 want to keep this simple because as I

9 understand what we've been talking for the

10 past ten meetings has been that the least

11 efficient combination you would certify to DOE

12 would have to be 14. That's what we've agreed

13 to, right? Is that correct?

14 MS. MEYERS: That's correct, Doug. 

15 But the issue comes in how the test procedure

16 works and what is meant by highest sales

17 volume combination and the number of units you

18 have to test. So we have a little disconnect

19 that we have to get worked out. You are

20 understanding our ask correctly, but now when

21 we look at how that operates within the test

22 procedure, there's an issue.
Page 43

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

2 I'm a manufacturer, so maybe I'm a sideline

3 viewer. If I'm going to buy this product, I'm

4 going to buy an XYZ 500. I'm going to go to

5 the DOE database or the AHRI database and I'm

6 going to look up the XYZ 500. And I'm going

7 to -- the least efficient thing in that --

8 everything that matches with the XYZ 500, has

9 to be 14. As a contractor, I don't care how

10 you got there. If you've listed it somewhere

11 or another, I'm assuming it's correct. So the

12 least efficient rating of these combinations,

13 whatever one of those I pick, as long as it's

14 a 14, it's an acceptable product. And whether

15 it's an arm or a blower coil or --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what that

17 says, right? That's what that --

18 MR. WHITE: Right, and that's what

19 that says and I think that's -- I think if we

20 get into the testing and the rating and all

21 the process, at the end of the day I don't

22 know if it makes much difference to the
Page 44

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 product I go pick off the shelf and install.

2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. And I

3 think for the purpose of the discussion we're

4 having here, I think what's on the slide is

5 probably okay. For the purpose of the

6 guidance that is being worked out, maybe we

7 need to clarify further and maybe that's

8 something we can come back to.

9 MS. MEYERS: Can you type this on

10 the screen as John reads?

11 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

12 Carrier. I'll try to read slow. "Split

13 system central air conditioners with single

14 stage compressor system must be tested and

15 rated as a coil-only system for the HSVC;

16 however, other coil and blower coil ratings

17 can be obtained through the use of a DOE18 approved arm or by testing."

19 MR. RAWALD: So here's -- this is

20 Doug. I need to talk to Ashley, obviously,

21 before we would ever commit to anything on

22 this. This last bullet is going towards, in
Page 45

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 part, to guidance that we've already issued

2 and is not squarely -- I want to make sure

3 we're all on the same page about it, how we

4 get to 14 from Chuck's point of view, is

5 something that we've issued some draft

6 guidance about. We've gotten some feedback on

7 it. Ashley is going to have to look at it

8 some more. We're going to have to talk about

9 it some more. But I don't think it's

10 necessary to deciding here that regardless of

11 how we get to 14, you can't have a certified

12 combination below 14, if you're going to sell

13 it in the region. It has to be -- so what I'd

14 like to do is not muddy the waters by adding

15 this language that seems to be causing at

16 least some problem from our end and just stick

17 with what we have. This is going to get us

18 right to where I think we're not comfortable

19 at the moment because we have to really talk

20 about this internally some more.

21 What we can all agree, I think, is

22 that we want to make sure that manufacturer
Page 46

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 only sells certified combinations. All the

2 certified combinations you have for the region

3 are going to have to be 14. They can't be

4 13.6. Everything has to be at least 14. And

5 that's from the first three bullets. This

6 fourth bullet, I think, just may add another

7 layer of complexity that I can't commit to at

8 the moment.

9 So I get what you're asking, I do,

10 John, but I don't know if I'm comfortable --

11 I know I'm not comfortable. I need to talk to

12 Ashley some more and to other folks possibly

13 about this issue before we can commit to that.

14 MR. ROY: Doug, Aniruddh Roy with

15 Goodman. We agree with the first three

16 bullets.

17 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object to

18 taking that last bullet off now and voting on

19 this? So no one is objecting?

20 MR. LATTANZI: Do we need to caucus

21 again?

22 MR. WHITE: Is that call to lunch?
Page 47

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

2 Rheem. I'm okay with the first three bullets.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay, if we remove the

4 fourth bullet, does anybody object?

5 MR. RAWALD: And I want to save this

6 language. I don't want to throw it away. I

7 think it's important language for the

8 Department to have. So I want to make sure we

9 preserve it. I don't want just to delete it. 

10 But just for the purposes of voting of hey,

11 this is where we are with this idea what 14

12 SEER means, the first three are what we

13 discussed to, what the Department is committed

14 to and what we all agreed on at this point. 

15 I want to reconfirm that by having everyone

16 say, yeah, we do agree with that.

17 MR. EISNER: We'll create a separate

18 slide called Ashley Fixes and we'll move it to

19 that slide? 

20 Now, with it removed and this is how

21 I'd like to proceed, tell me if anybody

22 objects. We'll look at each slide. We'll
Page 48

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 discuss it until people are comfortable we've

2 discussed it enough. I will ask if anybody

3 objects. If nobody objects, we will indicate

4 on the slide that it was approved unanimously. 

5 That does not preclude going back to it after

6 we've gone through the entire package. People

7 can say I'd like to go back to Slide 4 or 5. 

8 And after we vote on this, she will indicate

9 the approval was unanimous or whatever the

10 vote was. We will then go on to the next

11 slide. Is that okay? We can try it and if

12 you're uncomfortable to that approach, we can

13 go back.

14 Harvey?

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey-spills16 water. I'm certainly comfortable, but I do

17 want to have the record reflect that this

18 looks to be the best solution for

19 enforceability. It has some -- there

20 certainly will be cases where other technology

21 solutions might have been preferable for some

22 customers. And I think we all understand
Page 49

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that. But I think this is the right one for

2 the enforceability that's the subject of this

3 series of talks.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other

5 comments on this first slide? Does anyone

6 object to us approving this unanimously?

7 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi

8 with NORDYNE. I don't object, but I would

9 like the record to indicate an abstention.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay, so we have one

11 abstention, a unanimous vote for this

12 approving it. 

13 We're going to the next slide which

14 is 5. Definitions. Any comments or

15 questions?

16 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. I

17 took the definitions we had discussed and with

18 great length the information we had

19 additionally to the proposed definitions,

20 brought them back to the Department. We

21 wordsmithed them a slight bit and we also

22 broke out so the definition we had ultimately
Page 50

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 proposed was a contractor or dealer is blank. 

2 And so what I did was because of the way we do

3 definitions, we define terms individually, was

4 broke it out in this fashion.

5 So the major change from the word

6 contractor is -- I took out the word

7 residential before central air conditioner

8 because -- and the way -- in DOE regulatory

9 parlance, central air conditioner is a

10 residential product -- the commercial product

11 is commercial HVAC, so 438.32(c) is central

12 air conditioner and that is residential by

13 itself. So this a regulatory framework. The

14 word central air conditioner means

15 residential, so that was a redundant word to

16 my lawyers.

17 And then subject to regional

18 standards as opposed to covered by is a term

19 of art that we use. So I changed it to

20 subject to.

21 For dealer, what we have here is a

22 type of contractor because we agreed to and I
Page 51

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 went back to what John Gibbons had mentioned

2 which was generally they have a relationship

3 with one or more specific manufacturers. We

4 can talk more about that.

5 And then installer is essentially

6 the same thing we said with the changes I made

7 to contractor as well, taking out the word

8 residential and changing the word covered to

9 subject to.

10 And then added late last night the

11 definition of the term installation which is

12 based in large part upon -- Bryan Rocky

13 recommended a while back, but I did want to

14 make sure we put it up there. It's not on the

15 slide so you may have to write it in which

16 would be installation with split system air

17 conditioner is a connection of the refrigerant

18 lines and electrical systems to make the air

19 conditioner operational. Obviously, we're

20 open to more discussion on that. That was

21 essentially taken from what you folks had

22 proposed before.
Page 52

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Any comments,

2 questions?

3 MR. ROCKY: Yes, this is Bryan

4 Rocky, so Doug, the only thing with that

5 discussion, I'd say installation of a packaged

6 air conditioner, the connection of electrical

7 systems to just expand that slightly more.

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

9 MR. ROCKY: But I agree with the

10 discussion of the items as shown.

11 MS. DEGITZ: Could we just say

12 installation of a central air conditioner is

13 the connection to refrigerant lines electrical

14 systems? That would cover both.

15 MR. ROCKY: So this is Bryan. So

16 again, you're packaging it, you're not going

17 to have the connection of refrigerant lines

18 because there it's already done internally in

19 the package unit. So again, and/or is fine. 

20 There you go. Thank you.

21 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

22 ACCA. So I think person in contractor is the
Page 53

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 company, correct. So the definition of

2 contractor, a person, but that included the

3 company.

4 MR. RAWALD: Right.

5 MR. McCRUDDEN: And then under

6 installer, a person that installs -- is that

7 still company or is that the individual?

8 MR. RAWALD: It could be any of

9 those things. And so installer is not a term

10 that we're going to use for any sort of

11 obligation. It's merely mentioned in the

12 statute, so we want to make sure the installer

13 could be the company. It could be the

14 technician, it could be anybody in that

15 market. But everything that we're going to do

16 is going to be based on contractor and dealer. 

17 So those are the terms that are of importance

18 in the statute. Installer, it's a nebulous

19 term. We want to make sure it has a meaning

20 that people understand.

21 MR. SACHS: Doug, this is Harvey. 

22 And I find installer a bit confusing because
Page 54

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 in all of the other contexts, person is

2 referring to an entity, whether it's

3 incorporated or not. And with installer, the

4 ambiguity is that that could refer to that

5 type of organization or it could refer to an

6 employee who's tasked with going out and

7 stuffing the wires into the right places. 

8 Is it intended to refer to the

9 employee or free agent, as opposed to the

10 business entity?

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. So when we

12 discussed this before, I thought we were

13 trying to get at the person. But once again,

14 we don't have to define this term if we don't

15 want to. It's not necessary because it

16 appears nowhere else in what we're doing later

17 on downstream. It's just mentioned at one

18 point in the statute and so my question to you

19 is well, what is an installer, so we can't put

20 a definition for it.

21 There's actually no obligation

22 placed upon the installer at all. It's placed
Page 55

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 upon the contractor and dealer. So I'm not

2 overly concerned about defining it, but I felt

3 like it's a term that has otherwise been

4 undefined, so do we want to make sure we all

5 understand what we mean when we use the term

6 installer. I'm open to ideas to on that.

7 MR. SACHS: Doug, this is Harvey

8 again, not being a regulatory lawyer, what's

9 my downside risk if I eliminate that term

10 installer?

11 MR. RAWALD: I don't see much. I

12 don't see much at all. I mean, frankly, I'm

13 not convinced it's necessary. But we had

14 talked about it, so I wanted to have it up

15 here for folks to look at.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd. 

17 I think it actually isn't any different than

18 a contractor, right? If you look at it, that

19 exact same language is within the contractor

20 definition in the and/or aspect of it.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right, so Amy you would

22 say it's basically redundant. There's no need
Page 56

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 for it?

2 MS. SHEPHERD: I'm being redundant,

3 I guess, in the way I'm saying that. It's

4 redundant.

5 MR. RAWALD: I mean, I don't see the

6 need for it unless you guys need it is what

7 I'm saying.

8 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. I

9 guess I don't really see the need for it

10 either if it's not something that's going to

11 get penalized, but it is possible you have

12 someone who is doing installations, but didn't

13 do the selling. So it could be an individual. 

14 It could be a business that is hired strictly

15 to install, but didn't actually sell the

16 product. So the person as defined that would

17 include companies would capture that, so if

18 you think you want to have that definition,

19 I'm fine with it the way it is. If you think

20 it's superfluous, that's fine, too.

21 MR. RAWALD: I don't need it. And

22 so I'm ready to drop it. We should just drop
Page 57

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it.

2 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object?

3 MR. SACHS: I'm not yet clear on

4 this. This is Harvey. But what I'm hearing

5 from Chuck says gee, there's this guy who has

6 a business relationship with humongous big box

7 in which humongous big box sells the HVAC and

8 hires Chuck to put it in place. And Chuck

9 knowingly puts in place that SEER 13 where

10 it's not supposed to be.

11 Do we need this installer to cover

12 that or is the big -- the big humongous big

13 box the contractor in this?

14 MR. RAWALD: Right, so in that

15 scenario, by the definition that we have, both

16 big box and Chuck would be contractors because

17 we have the sales to and/or installs. So they

18 would both qualify as contractor with the

19 obligations that contractors have under that.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you. I'm happy.

21 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object to

22 deleting the definition of installer? Okay,
Page 58

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we will delete it.

2 MR. ROCKY: I'm sorry. So this is

3 Bryan. So I know it's redundant, but in

4 dealing with some of our customers, it's

5 easier to have a term that is redundant than

6 not to have to keep explaining to them that

7 installer is a contractor. So even though

8 it's redundant, it doesn't hurt to have to

9 have it there. The interpretation I have no

10 issues with. I would just rather keep it

11 there so that we can explain to the guy who --

12 you're a contractor. No, I'm not. I'm an

13 installer. Okay, well, this is what this

14 means to you. And I'd just rather have it in

15 there.

16 MR. EISNER: Having heard many

17 people say they don't have an objection either

18 way, does anyone object to leaving the

19 definition of installer?

20 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I

21 want to address Bryan's scenario. So the

22 concern I would have is so the definition of
Page 59

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 contractor as written that now they say, oh

2 yeah, you can see your contractor, you

3 install. If we have a definition of install

4 or an addition, will that then cause confusion

5 and they'll say well, I'm an installer. And

6 you can say you're a contractor and you're

7 going to say, no, you're both. So that's the

8 conversation you're really going to have with

9 them.

10 So if we eliminate the definition of

11 installer, now you can say, no, DOE defines a

12 person who installs the thing as a contractor. 

13 So is that the more clear message possibly, to

14 your person you're talking about?

15 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

16 Rheem. I don't think we -- I would prefer

17 that it be deleted.

18 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. Having

19 you restated that, Doug, I'm fine with

20 deleting it.

21 MR. EISNER: Harvey, where are you?

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I can
Page 60

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 accept it either way.

2 MR. EISNER: Again, does anyone

3 object to deleting the definition of

4 installer? All right, we will take it off. 

5 I will now ask for a vote on contractor/dealer

6 and installation. Does anyone object to any

7 of these definitions?

8 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

9 Ingersoll Rand. I just want to ask a

10 question. I guess it's really related to the

11 contractor. Does it matter that -- the word

12 end user. Imagine in the case of just a

13 rental property. The person you would sell to

14 would likely be the owner. I don't know that

15 they would qualify as the end user if they're

16 not also the occupant. I don't know what that

17 matters.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right, so I think what

19 we would do is make clear in the preamble that

20 it wouldn't necessarily be the person who

21 lives in the place that's air conditioned, but

22 the person who owns it or manages it or all
Page 61

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 sorts of permutations that would be possible. 

2 The buyer could be the developer of tract

3 housing, right? So he would be the end user

4 that would be purchasing it and having it

5 installed for. So we're going to make all

6 that clear. I think that's what we have come

7 to as consensus as, that's what we're talking

8 about here.

9 MR. DORIA: That makes sense. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other

12 problems? Does anybody object to us adopting

13 5 as you see it on the screen?

14 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary for the

15 California IOUs. Before we agree on this,

16 would it be desirable to replace the term --

17 I need to wait for Doug's attention. Would it

18 be desirable to replace the term end user with

19 purchaser? Or does that add some additional

20 complication we don't want?

21 MR. RAWALD: So I think end user

22 might be more broad than purchaser from my
Page 62

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 point of view. But I think what I can tell

2 the group is if we go back and the lawyers say

3 hey, we understand what the group wants and

4 that would be a better term to use, we might

5 insert a different term in the final rule. 

6 We know what we want at this point. 

7 We want to capture what's going on here. We

8 want it to be the person who gets the thing at

9 the end of the day, has to have the thing

10 that's 14. So I think end users is the best

11 term I can think of now. If we come up with

12 a different term in the course of writing the

13 rule, then we'll put out for comment and I

14 think everyone will be -- I think everyone

15 will be satisfied.

16 MR. FENSTROM: Okay, this is Gary,

17 again. With that clarification and your

18 suggestion that we define end user in the

19 preamble, that's fine with me.

20 MR. EISNER: Okay, so no one

21 objects? This one is unanimous. We'll go on

22 to slide 6, actually 7.
Page 63

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 This is the DOT website portion of

2 the rule. Any comments, concerns, questions?

3 MR. RAWALD: So we currently have a

4 website that's going to have information

5 included on it. We may -- we're going to have

6 regional standards information on it. And

7 it's going to have the tri-fold that you folks

8 have seen which will be available for

9 contractors to print when they go to see

10 consumers. And also we're going to put up

11 something for folks in John's world, the

12 distributors to put on the counter, they'll

13 have information for folks that's from DOE. 

14 That's the current commitment from the

15 Department.

16 And we'll also have, as you'll see

17 later on, a link that will allow you to follow

18 the complaint if you know of one via email on

19 that website.

20 MR. EISNER: Any comments or

21 concerns?

22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. Will
Page 64

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that also -- will that website also be what's

2 printed on the manufacturers' labels and do we

3 want to state that? Or is there labeling

4 later?

5 MR. RAWALD: So for the voluntary

6 label where the version Bryan Rocky provided

7 us has a website on it, will the website be

8 the one that we have for regional standards

9 that we're asking? I guess the question is

10 the manufacturers, could you guys do that? 

11 You don't have to answer now. You can think

12 about it.

13 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. The

14 website that was referenced in my example, we

15 talked about was the Department's standard

16 site for energy rating information. If you're

17 looking at a different website than that, then

18 I think you can reference that internally from

19 a link from one to the other. 

20 Productinfo.energy.gov is a site that we have

21 referenced in a lot of materials. And I think

22 that would be easier for us to reference, too.
Page 65

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: So what you're saying

2 is both sites could reference each other, so

3 no matter which one you put out, they would

4 indirectly get to the other?

5 MR. RAWALD: Yes. And I guess --

6 this is Doug, so I'm not prepared to give you

7 an URL. I know folks are trying to get this

8 thing done. We don't have a practical URL for

9 it. So whereas we know that the product that

10 .gov -- that's the one to use, then we'll make

11 sure there's a link obvious to that, to the

12 site they need to go to get information on

13 regional standards. 

14 But this is a voluntary question for

15 you guys, obviously, so I don't think you need

16 to answer it right now. I think you can think

17 about it over lunch and come back to us. I'm

18 not going to pressure you for an answer right

19 now. I think it's just something for us to

20 talk about.

21 MR. EISNER: Do we want to hold off

22 from voting on this until after lunch.
Page 66

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: I have a separate slide

2 on the voluntary label. I think it's more

3 relevant there. I think from this is a

4 different question.

5 MR. ROCKY: So this is Bryan. So

6 Doug, the discussion of an 800 number because

7 we do have customers that do not have --

8 MR. RAWALD: That's later. You'll

9 see a slide later with that.

10 MR. ROCKY: Thank you.

11 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on

12 this? No questions, no concerns? Does

13 anybody object to our adopting this? All

14 right, this one is passed as unanimous. And

15 we'll break for lunch. Come back at 1

16 o'clock.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

18 matter went off the record at 12:04 pm. and

19 resumed at 1:07 p.m.)

20 MR. EISNER: All right, why don't we

21 get started. I think we are on slide number

22 nine. It may be simple. Anybody have any
Page 67

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 objections to the slide as it is up there? 

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. The

3 third bullet there just says, "Will provide

4 webinar on standards and enforcement." That

5 could be taken as a one shot thing, or

6 resources accessible on demand. I think it'd

7 be preferable to have it as both. 

8 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. What

9 we've done in the past is we do the webinar

10 live, and then we make the slides available. 

11 I don't know if we have that capability or the

12 recording the webinars being instructed. I

13 will ask the question.

14 MR. SACHS: Please don't ask. 

15 You're close enough.

16 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

17 Rheem. Under the manufacturer's section, it

18 said, "Hosted at distributer sites." Is that

19 necessary? What if we want to do webinars or

20 host it at a hotel?

21 MR. RAWALD: This is not necessary

22 at all. I remember it was mentioned by a
Page 68

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 distributor at some point as they could do

2 this. So, it is not -- doesn't have to be

3 represented here at all. Or, we could

4 reference in the rule that, hey, the

5 distributers are going to pitch in by

6 providing a place to have these meetings.

7 So, it is up to you folks how you

8 want to phrase that, or if you want to have

9 them there at all.

10 MS. MEYERS: I would just as soon

11 have it deleted. I don't know how other OEM's

12 feel, but.

13 MR. ROY: I think the less

14 prescriptive the better.

15 MR. RAWALD: Just to be clear, I

16 don't view any of this to be a regulation. 

17 This is going to be mentioned in the preamble,

18 where we say, "Manufacturers are volunteering

19 to do this." So, there will be no

20 prescription at all. You guys are

21 volunteering to do this as part of making sure

22 we enforce it correctly.
Page 69

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. MELCHI: This is John with

2 HARDI. In that context, our members are

3 willing to -- I have noted that we'll make

4 whatever efforts possible to provide training

5 on our end as well.

6 MR. RAWALD: So, perhaps instead of

7 making a sub-bullet, saying, "Distributors

8 offer to provide logistical or training

9 assistance as needed." Something like that?

10 MS. MEYERS: Well, could we just

11 say, "Distributors will also conduct

12 training?" Like we do for contractors as a

13 primary bullet? Is that what you meant?

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay, great.

15 MS. MEYERS: I thought that's what

16 we talked about.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie for

18 HARDI. I just -- when we do -- we're going to

19 do a webinar and training on this. Ours will

20 be on demand.

21 MR. WHITE: Chuck White, PHCC. Ours

22 will too, but will yours be open to the public
Page 70

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 or just for members?

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: You had to ask,

3 didn't you? Not sure yet just because we have

4 firewalls for members and non-members. But I

5 know we'll have some information available to

6 everybody. I haven't had a chance to talk

7 internally about what we -- whether the

8 webinars will be available to everybody now.

9 MR. WHITE: We need to talk offline

10 about mutual --

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Anymore questions? As

13 changed, does anybody object to our adopting

14 this slide? All right, consider this one

15 adopted unanimously. 

16 We're up to components, slide number

17 10. Actually, slide number 11. First one is

18 reporting. Any questions? Comments? 

19 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. Just a

20 question, and I don't -- I don't feel the need

21 to see it listed exhaustively here, but that

22 word, credible, got into some discussion we've
Page 71

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 had about what sort of the triggers would be

2 for investigation to take place. Is that

3 addressed elsewhere, or is that just not going

4 to be addressed?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what we had

6 discussed last week was a threshold for

7 investigating. When I brought the idea back

8 to the department, what the department came

9 back to me with was, "Let's have a threshold

10 before we bother a contractor with records

11 requests. But we'll still follow up on

12 complaints and then flesh them out."

13 So, we won't say we won't

14 investigate, but before we actually ask for

15 records, we'll make sure there's kind of a

16 baseline met. Before we bother the contractor

17 and upset the apple cart and actually look

18 into something. But if somebody calls up with

19 at least some information, we're going to call

20 that person back. We're going to try to get

21 some more information.

22 Now, if we get a call that simply,
Page 72

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 "Acme is bad," and a hang up, I'm not going to

2 do anything about it. That's not a credible

3 complaint.

4 So, we didn't have any -- I didn't

5 have any language from the department as far

6 as that goes, and I'm not -- and I only put

7 the word credible there because we want there

8 to be some baseline. We're not going to

9 follow up on everything in the regional

10 standards world because there could be too

11 many. They're just incredible.

12 So, that's where I was there. If

13 you'd feel more comfortable fleshing that out,

14 we could. Understanding that we're really

15 talking about things we just can't follow up

16 on at all are the ones we're not going to

17 follow up on.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary for the

19 California IOU. So, this slide is titled,

20 "Reporting." My question is is investigation

21 limited to reporting, or are there other

22 options that DOE is contemplating so far as
Page 73

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 investigation is concerned? 

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

3 department is going to have the right to

4 perform proactive investigations, as I talked

5 about before. And so, we don't see the need

6 to regulate what those actions could or could

7 not be, but we'll certainly -- we're not going

8 to be limited only to what's reported to us.

9 We can look at other things in

10 regard to investigation.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so maybe I'm

12 asking about the next slide instead of this

13 one, but does DOE have an obligation with

14 respect to further investigation, or is that

15 solely at DOE's discretion?

16 MR. RAWALD: So, I'm having a hard

17 time with the word obligation. That's what

18 I'm struggling with. I'm not sure of the

19 obligation you're referring to. I believe

20 the department has an obligation to enforce

21 the rules, right?

22 So, we have a rule. So, we're going
Page 74

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to enforce it. So, we're going to use

2 whatever tools we have at our disposal to

3 enforce that. So, one of the major tools we

4 talked about throughout this negotiation has

5 been responding to reported violations.

6 I think the department will look at

7 other methods over time to figure out if

8 people are being compliant, and we will take

9 action as noted. But if folks come to us with

10 an idea, we'll certainly consider them. The

11 idea that I floated to the department, which

12 is the next slide, is the survey that you've

13 asked for a couple times.

14 So, we can look at the next slide. 

15 That's the major idea I floated to the

16 department already, and folks want to be able

17 to consider it without having it be a

18 requirement because there's some other

19 concerns we'll talk about when we get to that

20 slide.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. I'm

22 waiting for the next slide.
Page 75

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

2 MR. EISNER: Any other questions or

3 comments on 11?

4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie at

5 ACCIA. The -- looking ahead to slide 18,

6 which is threshold for record request. What's

7 the difference then between threshold for

8 record request and what you're looking for on

9 a credible complaint?

10 MR. RAWALD: So, there's more. I

11 want to have -- the term we use later in the

12 slide is reasonable belief, which is, to me

13 that we have to feel at least fairly certain

14 that something happened here before we're

15 going to bother you and ask you for records.

16 We currently use that as a standard

17 before we ask for manufacturers to provide us

18 models or units of models to test. So, we

19 require to have reasonable belief. Either we

20 have some sort of data, or I have tested

21 myself, and I see a unit of a model failed. 

22 Then I have a reasonable belief that
Page 76

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the model itself is non-compliant. So, in

2 order for me to go to a contractor and say,

3 "You've got to cough up all your records. And

4 I know it's going to cost you a lot of time

5 and energy to do this." I've got to have a

6 reasonable belief that there's something

7 there.

8 So, I'm not going to waste your time

9 until I have a reason to believe something is

10 there. That's our assertion to you that we're

11 trying to make it so non-frivolous complaints

12 aren't used as a tool to disrupt your

13 business.

14 So, we're going to require that we

15 have at least some reason to believe that when

16 we ask you for something, we're going to find

17 something. So, in order to have that, we're

18 going to look for things.

19 On that slide, you can see various

20 things to indicate that, yes, there really was

21 something that Chuck's company did wrong

22 there. Whereas, a credible complaint is --
Page 77

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it's really going to be if I have enough to

2 follow up on with the person, or at least look

3 into or do a little digging, and say, "Okay,

4 who is this company? What are they all

5 about?" Do a little internet surfing.

6 So, if I have a complaint through

7 that, I will follow up on it in that way

8 without actually starting an investigation or

9 requesting any records. I don't think it's

10 fair to you guys to be disruptive your

11 business that way.

12 The nebulousness of the term could

13 be -- can be concerning. I get that.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

15 again. The reason I asked was I just wondered

16 if it makes sense for your purposes on the

17 outgoing message on the voice mailbox, or on

18 the website, to sort of say, "This is the

19 information we need." Then you're not getting

20 the, "Acme is bad," call. You're getting

21 someone who sort of knows what you need.

22 But in the way you answered, it
Page 78

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 almost makes me more concerned because it

2 seems like there's two thresholds: one for

3 requesting information, but the other one

4 which is sort of on this reporting threshold,

5 which is just sort of built up in your own

6 memory bank; complaints about folks. And does

7 that bias you moving forward?

8 MR. RAWALD: I think it's a fair

9 question. So, what I have been told is the

10 department doesn't want to feel constrained

11 from at least looking into a complaint. They

12 don't want to -- at least trying to gauge

13 other methods as opposed to disrupting the

14 contractor's business based on information

15 where we can't help the situation. 

16 So, we want to at least have some

17 more flexibility there, but they're willing to

18 adopt some pretty rigid flexibility, to a

19 pretty inflexible situation actually, of a

20 standard for bothering a contractor in their

21 business by asking for records.

22 And so, this is still -- you have to
Page 79

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 come from the premise that right now any

2 complaint that we get, we're going to

3 investigate, which is -- there's a lot of them

4 we get that are really terrible. And so,

5 they're really worthless, but we'll still

6 follow up on it because we have an obligation

7 to follow up on every complaint.

8 So, what we're saying is there's

9 going to be a baseline here. You know, it's

10 something. And so, we'll advise you of all

11 that. But the complaints -- until we get a

12 certain critical mass of information, we're

13 not going to go ahead and disrupt the

14 contractor's business with a record request.

15 I think that could be time consuming

16 to accompany that's geared towards doing work

17 as opposed to filing records, record requests. 

18 That's what we're coming from there. That's

19 what I think is a concern.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: That's helpful.

21 MR. ROY: Aniruddh, Goodman. Doug,

22 you mentioned reasonable belief. Could you
Page 80

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 elaborate on that? What would define that?

2 MR. RAWALD: When we get there,

3 we'll talk about that. That's on a future

4 slide. So, we can talk more about what will

5 constitute that.

6 MR. ELLIS: Doug, Ray Ellis. Is

7 this -- will they be investigated out of

8 Washington, D.C., or are there field offices

9 in different areas of the country?

10 MR. RAWALD: All the folks working

11 on this will be working from our offices here.

12 MR. ELLIS: Just here?

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

14 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Does

15 anyone object to our adopting what is on this

16 slide? Okay, then slide number 11 is

17 unanimous. Brings us up to slide 12,

18 proactive checks.

19 MR. RAWALD: So, this is the Gary

20 Fernstrom slide. So, Gary has asked on

21 multiple occasions if the department would

22 adopt a requirement that we would survey homes
Page 81

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 on a regularized basis, similar to what

2 California has done with the pool pumps,

3 versus robo calling or regularized survey, to

4 determine that they have compliant units

5 installed.

6 I asked the department if they would

7 do this, and what I was told is, "We don't

8 want to commit to anything because we don't

9 know if the money is going to be there. If

10 it's available, then we'll consider it."

11 So, that's obviously very caveated

12 language. Not I'm sure what Gary would want,

13 but that's the most -- the biggest guarantee

14 that I can give from the department point of

15 view at the moment.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug, this is Gary. 

17 So, I probably used the wrong term earlier

18 when I suggested that DOE might have an

19 obligation. Commitment would've been a better

20 term. I was hoping for some sort of

21 commitment, not, "If funding is available we'd

22 consider it." 
Page 82

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 That's vague in two aspects. One,

2 funding may not be available, and even if it

3 is, DOE might consider it and reject it. 

4 Maybe I'm a minority of one here, but I really

5 feel like some sort of field level survey is

6 necessary in order to -- a commitment to that

7 is necessary in order to assure compliance.

8 To use the traffic analogy, that

9 would be like trying to enforce the traffic

10 laws with no cops on the road. I mean, yes,

11 we can look at the auto dealerships and we can

12 look at the auto manufacturers, but unless

13 somebody to some small extent is on the ground

14 in the field looking, I don't believe we can

15 really be sure that it is working.

16 So, how about DOE -- if funding is

17 available, DOE will commit to it, and review

18 it. If it proves to be non-productive or

19 unnecessary, no problem in discontinuing it.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right, Gary. Just so

21 you understand, I've been an advocate for this

22 point for you, and I -- and the department has
Page 83

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 told me this is the language they are most

2 willing to adopt.

3 I will bring back your language if

4 you want, and we can defer voting on this

5 slide if that is your preference. I can say

6 that with 95 percent likelihood that I'm not

7 going to get that response back from the

8 department. However, if the group wants to

9 adopt your language and the department could

10 concur, that at least could be put out there.

11 If the group wants the department to

12 do something that could be put out there. I

13 guess there's always that option.

14 MR. WHITE: Douglas, Chuck White. 

15 This is -- bear with me a little afield, but

16 I'll pull it back. One of the things I've

17 thought of who we don't have sitting around

18 this table is building departments,

19 inspections authorities.

20 And if we cut back a couple slides

21 here and do some education to them as well,

22 and try to get some buy in from them to
Page 84

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 understand this, and help them be an extension

2 of your enforcement that perhaps they could

3 give you some feedback on some of this field

4 kinds of surveys; they're going to see more

5 installations than you are easily.

6 So, that's kind of throwing

7 something out there, but it might help offset

8 this, "You don't have any money." They don't

9 have any money either, but they're looking at

10 the air conditioners anyway. Most of them. 

11 At least ones that are permitted, and that

12 would perhaps help generate some leads for you

13 as well.

14 MR. RAWALD: So, the department's

15 training will be open to the public. So, I

16 certainly don't mind. And it would encourage

17 us to invite building inspectors and home

18 inspectors who experience this in this

19 southeast and the southwest to attend that

20 training.

21 So, I don't mind going back to the

22 department with that concept and including
Page 85

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that. I don't know how the manufacturer

2 distributors would feel about providing

3 training to those folks, or if that's solely

4 on the department. I'm not sure if that's --

5 how broad your request is.

6 MR. WHITE: I guess I'm not sure

7 either, but I know when PHCC does training on

8 certain things, we very often invite the local

9 -- through our local chapters, the local

10 chapters invite the inspectors from the local

11 communities that we deal with to come and hear

12 the changes in the code. "Here's this. 

13 Here's that." 

14 They may come. They may not, but

15 it's -- it's kind of trying to get everybody

16 on the same page so we all hear the message at

17 the same time that -- that certainly DOE

18 sending information to them directly would

19 help and maybe trying to engage with them

20 directly or indirectly that if you guys can

21 help us out or if you see some issues -- and

22 probably not every community is going to buy
Page 86

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 in, and say, "I don't have time for this. I

2 can't make one more phone call."

3 I do think you will get some that

4 will want to cooperate and help back up

5 training. I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

7 The California Utilities contribute to code

8 compliance related education, and we provide

9 classes for building energy consultants for

10 building code officials. You know, the lot.

11 Even so, we've discussed in these

12 meetings that compliance with this particular

13 measure with respect to the California

14 regulations is low. I've heard numbers around

15 20 percent discussed, and California is

16 probably more proactive with its building code

17 program than a lot of other states in this

18 country.

19 So, yes, there's no doubt that

20 building inspectors would be a source of

21 identifying non-compliant units, but I'd

22 suggest that we're probably going to see a
Page 87

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 very high level of compliance with those

2 installations that are inspected, and it is

3 those that are not inspected that I'm worried

4 about.

5 So, I'm empathetic with DOE's

6 concern about funding and making a commitment. 

7 On the other hand, I don't believe any of us

8 can be confident that we're going to achieve

9 compliance without some field survey or audit

10 that addresses this known instance of

11 non-compliance that I just spoke about. 

12 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

13 from AHRI. I'm fine with that as it is for

14 something for DOE to consider, but I don't

15 think that we should get hung up on this one

16 slide and an issue of how to mandate how DOE

17 is going to run its enforcement program to

18 this level.

19 They have an enforcement division. 

20 This is their job. This is what they do. 

21 They figure out the limited resources they

22 have and the best use of them to enforce the
Page 88

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 rules because that's what they're all about.

2 So, in my -- in my view? Fine. If

3 we want to put that there for something to

4 consider, but I don't think we should get hung

5 up on trying to mandate a specific enforcement

6 tool for them that they always have to use no

7 matter what.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I

9 agree with Amy. I don't think it's our job to

10 tell DOE what to do. However, I do think it's

11 our job to extract some kind of commitment out

12 of DOE to do something along these lines to

13 assure us that compliance is going to be

14 achieved.

15 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth with

16 NRDC. So, while this reflects Gary's idea

17 accurately, I guess when I was thinking about

18 this more proactive opportunity for things for

19 the department to consider, I was actually

20 considering what is the potential for the

21 department to randomly audit.

22 We have records retention
Page 89

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 requirements now. We are not requiring

2 records production, which seems reasonable,

3 but even just language in there that the DOE

4 would consider a random audit not necessarily

5 linked to a complaint, but just a check of the

6 -- a particular region, a particular

7 stakeholder; that that might actually be very

8 informative as well as a potential hook to

9 others to say, "At any given moment, I could

10 potentially be audited."

11 Even if that never happens, a hook

12 to stay in line. That was something I was

13 thinking of in this proactive nature.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Elizabeth, this is

15 Gary. I'd be happy with that. I don't think

16 it necessarily has to be at the home level,

17 but I think a commitment towards some

18 proactive audit is needed.

19 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with

20 Lennox. Regardless of whether I'm behaving or

21 not, I can be audited. Whether there's no

22 presumption of guilt, somebody can show up at
Page 90

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 my doorstep and request my records, even

2 though I haven't done anything wrong. Is that

3 what we're suggesting?

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

5 MR. HURST: Don't like it.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, it's kind of

7 like our income tax. We're all honest. We

8 all turn our --

9 MR. HURST: I'm audited when someone

10 finds an anomaly on my income tax form. Not

11 when I've filed an --

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but you see,

13 you have to file the income tax, and there is

14 no filing here. So, if there isn't a

15 proactive outreach and review, there's

16 nothing.

17 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen with

18 Rheem. I'm going to throw further gas on the

19 fire. We have come up with several different

20 mechanisms for people to report improper

21 installations. This to me is absolutely

22 ridiculous, and I will not support it.
Page 91

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I

2 think we're also coming up with several great

3 mechanisms for reporting under the assumption

4 that people will. I think that it is not

5 unreasonable that if the department sees in

6 the first year that they aren't getting any

7 reporting that they have a mechanism in place,

8 that says, "I'm going to go random sample."

9 It doesn't even have to be a large

10 number, but that they have the opportunity or

11 the capability of doing that.

12 MS. MEYERS: So, I think if

13 utilities want to spend their money doing

14 that, or other energy efficiency groups have

15 at it but they may not be getting any

16 complaints because low and behold people are

17 actually not cheating like some people think

18 there's going to be random cheating in this

19 room; I think the majority of the companies in

20 this industry are going to try and comply with

21 the law to go out there and do random audits

22 on whether a 13 or 14 SEER air conditioner was
Page 92

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 illegally installed? 

2 It's going to cost a lot of money to

3 do that. I think we said the difference in

4 saving -- utility savings -- I mean we're

5 putting in all of these ways for these checks

6 to occur anyway. But to go up and just

7 randomly request records from people, or to go

8 into neighborhoods and start robocalling is

9 beyond ridiculous.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Well,

11 we have a difference of opinion on this one.

12 MR. EISNER: Do we want to talk more

13 or have a vote? Any language that could

14 clarify? Any adjectives that could be changed

15 that would satisfy you, Gary?

16 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. Leaving

17 our differences aside, which side of

18 ridiculous side this falls on, even though I

19 completely agree in a sense with Gary's point,

20 there needs to be a comprehensive look at the

21 effectiveness of this program on the ground.

22 I don't see us being able to secure
Page 93

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 hard language that would commit DOE to this. 

2 So, if we can maybe get something a little

3 stronger, like if funding is available DOE

4 will commit to conducting a survey, rather

5 than consider. 

6 But that said, I don't see us

7 eliminating the play in the joints of this

8 one. So, I think it's incumbent on the group

9 more broadly to think about ways that we can

10 sort of have some sort of a check on the

11 system to make sure things are working, aside

12 from just the reporting of violations.

13 I don't see this one getting solved

14 because I sort of don't agree with the random

15 audits either.

16 MR. HURST: Well, that brings up a

17 point. Maybe I'm confused as to how this

18 would work, but who would be surveyed, and how

19 would you get the list of survey recipients? 

20 I'm not sure how this program would actually

21 work. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 
Page 94

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Perhaps it is up to me to respond to that. 

2 When I originally proposed it, I suggested

3 that DOE implement a program where targeted

4 areas of higher air conditioning saturation

5 and age commensurate with likely needing to

6 comply with the requirement be robocalled, and

7 surveyed to see if homeowners might allow

8 someone to come out and take a look at their

9 air conditioner.

10 Through that, compliance might be

11 determined or not. That was just one

12 suggestion. Whether this goes on at the

13 homeowner level or some other level kind of is

14 less important to me than something be done. 

15 So, perhaps DOE could, on a very

16 limited extent, do an audit of distributors

17 inventory to see whether or not it is

18 generally indicative of compliance or not. 

19 But somehow, I think there needs to be some

20 follow up other than relying solely on reports

21 from the field of violations.

22 MS. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 
Page 95

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I appreciate Gary's intent here in trying to

2 make sure we're in compliance. I don't

3 necessarily agree that a survey of inventory

4 would be the best approach to that. As we've

5 discussed, maintaining and holding inventory

6 is not a violation and I don't know that that

7 would necessarily get you where you want to

8 go.

9 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. One

10 thing I maybe want to turn around on is I

11 think one of the things Elizabeth talked about

12 -- first of all, let me say survey and audit

13 are two different things. That's at least my

14 understanding.

15 An audit is necessarily more

16 burdensome on at least a lot of industry

17 parties. The other point is something David

18 Hungerford brought up last week that I thought

19 was an important point; that compliance to

20 some extent is about an individual's sort of

21 internal assessment along two axis: likelihood

22 of getting caught and severity of punishment.
Page 96

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 It was his assertion that we've been

2 focusing a lot on the severity and punishment

3 of being the force which would dissuade people

4 from committing the bad act, and less so on

5 their being some belief that there's a greater

6 likelihood of being caught.

7 I think Elizabeth's point, to some

8 extent, was saying that if you have something

9 like this, you can help engender in the --

10 across the industry a feeling that this isn't

11 just some totally impossible situation that

12 they could in fact be caught if they violate;

13 that there are actually a number of different

14 mechanisms by which they could in fact be

15 found out if they violate.

16 I'd say from where I sit, that is

17 important. That goal is important to try to

18 create a culture of compliance. So, I'm not

19 necessarily suggesting that survey or audit is

20 the best. But I think as we think about all

21 of this in totality, trying to help convey

22 that there are a lot of different ways by
Page 97

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 which one could be caught and also there are

2 severe punishments, I think both need to be

3 considered strongly for us to have something

4 that is in effective enforcement plans.

5 So, that's just a more general point

6 that I wanted to make.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

8 Earlier in our caucus, David Hungerford

9 expressed an opinion on this. I'm not sure he

10 totally agreed with my position, but if he's

11 on the line, I wonder if we could hear from

12 him.

13 MR. RAWALD: He isn't able to speak

14 right now. He hasn't entered his audio PIN. 

15 I'm not certain he's on.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Anyway, I

17 would agree with Jordan that in principle I

18 think this is important, and I'm willing to be

19 very flexible about how we might collectively

20 address it.

21 MR. ELLIS: This is Ray from LAC. I

22 know there are numerous times that we survey
Page 98

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 members and stuff all the time with postcards. 

2 With the new stickers that everybody has

3 agreed to put on, it's fairly simple to be

4 able to tell on your device whether or not

5 it's a SEER 13 or SEER 14. So, that might be

6 a very inexpensive way to survey an area to

7 see if the installations have met certain

8 criteria.

9 MR. EISNER: One of the problems

10 with composing --

11 MR. HUNGERFORD: Hi guys. Can you

12 hear me?

13 MR. EISNER: Yes.

14 MR. HUNGERFORD: Gary, you were

15 asking me what I thought of the survey and

16 this general idea. I'm not sure that the way

17 you've described it in my opinion, and as

18 someone who has done a number of -- quite a

19 bit of survey work over the years; I'm not

20 sure that this is how we necessarily want to

21 say it.

22 I also agree with the point; I think
Page 99

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it was Doug that said - it's sort of hard to

2 attach faces to voices sometimes - the idea of

3 the probability of getting caught versus the

4 amount of -- or the cost of getting caught.

5 There needs to be some method of

6 collecting data to sort of figure out whether

7 there are units going to the wrong place. But

8 I think that the more effective way to use

9 that research, or to do that research, would

10 be to use records from distribution and to

11 find out whether there are units that are

12 going to the wrong places. That's my major

13 concern.

14 I'm not sure that there is a

15 practical way to implement the kind of large

16 scale research project that you're talking

17 about. Sorry.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, my reaction --

19 this is Gary. Siding with David a little bit

20 here is I agree it may not be practical at the

21 individual home level, but following Jordan's

22 suggestion, there ought to be some way in
Page 100

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 principle we can get DOE to make a commitment

2 to be a little more proactive here than just

3 relying on reports of violation from the

4 field.

5 MR. HUNGERFORD: That I would agree

6 with.

7 MR. EISNER: Doug, if you had to

8 make more of a commitment would you be in a

9 position where you might have more of a

10 problem under the Paperwork Production Act?

11 MR. RAWALD: I can't answer that

12 question, but what I can say is for anything

13 I have to go back and talk to folks, and I

14 need some language that would actually meet

15 everyone's needs and reflect what we could

16 say.

17 There's an inability really for

18 people to realize that we can put a

19 requirement upon us to do anything, given the

20 fact that we have to rely on funding and other

21 considerations. But we all reserve the right

22 to go ahead and be proactive in our
Page 101

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 investigations.

2 We're not going to -- like I said,

3 there will be no traction for the idea of

4 auditing of records of contractors who are

5 otherwise thought to be non-compliant because

6 the audit can be disruptive of their business

7 to the extent that it wouldn't be appropriate

8 given the threshold we're putting upon

9 ourselves for otherwise disrupting the

10 business.

11 So, I don't think there's going to

12 be traction to that idea. There could be some

13 traction for other ideas as far as trying to

14 survey or determine if there are a number of

15 non-compliant units where they shouldn't be.

16 The question is even if I get that

17 information; if I find out that in a

18 particular town in California there are a

19 number of SEER 13's that shouldn't be there,

20 what will I then do with that information, and

21 how will I be able to use it?

22 So, I have to look at what I can do
Page 102

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 with that, and think about that some more as

2 to how will I be able to then link that to

3 investigating a particular contractor for

4 installing non-compliant units. So, there's

5 at least that part of it.

6 With the survey of the homes, at

7 least you are able to link a home to a

8 non-compliant unit and you're able to link a

9 home possibly to installer. So, there's a lot

10 more to go on for an investigation resulting

11 from that.

12 I can also see how, from a deterrent

13 standpoint, it would have an impact on the

14 contractor because he would say, "Oh, I might

15 be found out if this person ever gets a phone

16 call. So I want to make sure I do the right

17 thing."

18 So, that could be helpful. Once

19 again, I want to present the idea of the

20 survey. In particular, the information I

21 received back was a lukewarm consideration,

22 which is completely caveated in double terms
Page 103

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 here. So, I get the concern from the

2 advocates.

3 So, I'm asking you to -- if you want

4 to suggest different language, which at this

5 point all I've heard is DOE will commit as

6 opposed to consider. That's been firm

7 language. Then I will bring that back to the

8 department and see if they -- what their

9 thoughts are on it.

10 At the moment, this is what I've

11 been given as far as what we want to do.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

13 Let me sort of sum up where I think we are. 

14 I don't think this is as strong a commitment

15 as I'd like to see, yet I've heard

16 representatives from industry saying this

17 whole idea of completely ridiculous.

18 So, I'm not sure even the way it's

19 worded now it would get approval by this

20 group. So, maybe we can generalize it in such

21 a way as to meet the needs of our friends from

22 industry, perhaps substituting "survey of
Page 104

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 homes" to a term such as "proactively review

2 installations," leaving it wide open as to at

3 what level and how that might be done.

4 But strengthening the term consider

5 to -- would conduct if funds are available. 

6 Even with that change, I don't know that it

7 would meet with everyone's agreement here.

8 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with

9 Lennox. I don't know if I used the word

10 ridiculous. If I did, I apologize. So, the

11 evil, mean and spiteful me says we should

12 approve this because I don't think it's

13 ridiculous. I don't think it's going to be as

14 effective as you may want it to be.

15 I think we need to leave latitude

16 with the department to pursue different

17 approaches if they find things to be

18 effective. 

19 In a former life, I worked for a

20 big, orange big box retailer, and we targeted

21 neighborhoods specifically for HVAC

22 installations because we knew those were
Page 105

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 target rich opportunities.

2 I can't say as a marketer that my

3 efforts were very effective. So, if you do a

4 survey and target those neighborhoods, yes;

5 you might trip across one or two, but I

6 believe there are more effective ways to go

7 after this.

8 If the department is going to have

9 limited funding, which last time you checked

10 you do, I think we need to leave it to the

11 department's discretion to figure out what the

12 most effective use of those dollars is.

13 This is one of many ideas I

14 personally didn't find to be very effective. 

15 Not ridiculous.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Brother

17 Hurst and I don't always agree, but I like the

18 focus he's offered on keeping DOE responsible

19 and not dictating whether they use a hoe or a

20 pick to do it.

21 They think they can do a better job

22 with a shovel than a hoe? That's okay with me
Page 106

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 as long as they haven't lost the shovel. So,

2 that's agreement.

3 MR. RAWALD: Does anyone have any

4 particular language they could suggest, or do

5 you want to come back to this with some

6 language after thinking about it for a while?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. My

8 only suggestion is replace survey of homes to

9 some phrase, like, "Proactively reach out." 

10 If you, Doug, feel like indeed the best

11 alternative from your point of view now, if

12 DOE is capable of doing it, would be surveying

13 homes, then I'm happy with leaving it there. 

14 I guess I'm willing to give up my

15 request for a commitment from DOE in exchange

16 for even language as weak as this.

17 MR. RAWALD: I hear that Gary. So,

18 I'm pro the broadening of the language rather

19 than "survey of homes," because I think there

20 are smarter people that work enforcement for

21 much longer than I possibly.

22 So, I think it's good to have a
Page 107

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 breadth of ideas. So, let's do that.

2 MR. WHITE: Chuck White. I don't

3 know in terms of your language if it's okay. 

4 I don't know if people agree to it. But

5 instead of consider, could you say, "Reserves

6 the right to?"

7 MR. RAWALD: We could do that. That

8 would be effectively the same thing because we

9 wouldn't say, "We would do it." We would say,

10 "We will consider doing it simply by reserving

11 the right to do it," of course.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I think DOE

13 already has the right. It doesn't have to

14 reserve it.

15 MR. RAWALD: I think what Gary is

16 trying to look for is something to put out

17 there to scare people and at least give some

18 sort of deterrent value. "There's another

19 thing going on here that DOE is going to do,

20 and they're going to really look at this. 

21 They're going to really consider it."

22 I can't get us to the, "We are going
Page 108

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to do it." I can get us to the, "We're going

2 to give a lot of thought to it." And

3 especially if in a year or two years I haven't

4 seen a single report come across my desk. 

5 Then I'm going to feel like, "Okay, what do we

6 need to start thinking about how else we're

7 ensuring compliance?" 

8 At least I could say with a straight

9 face, "Yes, everything is fine out there. Not

10 a single thing is going wrong." Which would

11 be extraordinary.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. After

13 discussing this, I'm okay with the way it

14 reads now. I hope others in the room, given

15 Jordan's perspective on this, would be okay

16 with it too.

17 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with

18 Lennox. Would you limit it by funding, and

19 would you limit it by saying investigation? 

20 Couldn't you just say, "Doe will consider

21 proactive measures to determine if

22 non-compliant units have been installed?" 
Page 109

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 That gives you broad flexibility.

2 MR. RAWALD: So limit the term, "If

3 funding is available," and say, "DOE will

4 consider proactive measures in each region?" 

5 Or, "Proactive measures," period?

6 MR. HURST: I think leave it broad. 

7 It gives you the flexibility. It gives the

8 department the ability to pursue proactive

9 versus reactive measures.

10 MR. RAWALD: We can agree to that.

11 MR. EISNER: This is a preamble

12 statement as opposed to a rules statement.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right.

14 MR. EISNER: Will this be a preamble

15 statement rather than something you put in the

16 rules?

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I have to

18 confer with the lawyers about whether or not

19 we can put a requirement at least upon

20 ourselves in regulatory text. It seems to be

21 in the preamble but I don't know the answer to

22 that.
Page 110

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: My suggestion would be,

2 from what I'm hearing, is to come from the

3 other direction. "DOE may also take other

4 steps it deems appropriate," or something

5 along those lines. Not what they will

6 consider, but they will take whatever steps

7 they believe are necessary to address this

8 problem. They're not limited to what they've

9 stated in the rule making document. 

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie from

11 ACCA. I'm uncomfortable with the way it's

12 written now versus the way it was written

13 because proactive measures to me could be an

14 audit, whereas before we had, "Survey of

15 homes." To tell you the truth, I have no

16 problem surveying the homeowners because I

17 think that's the last check of eyes that could

18 be there.

19 MR. RAWALD: I think, Charlie, that

20 could be solved by saying, "DOE will only

21 request records if." So, we'll make the

22 records production slide later on. We can
Page 111

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 make clear that we'll only request those

2 records if we have that reasonable belief.

3 So, I can't supersede that by

4 saying, "Well, it's a proactive measure." I

5 can only request records if I have this

6 reasonable belief.

7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I understand that,

8 but I just want to make sure that "consider

9 proactive measures" doesn't mean random

10 audits.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. It would not in

12 my opinion.

13 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay, well --

14 MR. RAWALD: Because if I put that

15 limitation on the language regarding records

16 production, then I wouldn't be able to get

17 around that because I would already have

18 committed more specifically to that

19 implementation.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right, okay.

21 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd. 

22 I don't have an objection to that. I really
Page 112

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 feel like we're just trying to rephrase this

2 statement that DOE will do its job. So, I

3 really think we should not get too hung up on

4 this if -- maybe table it and move on.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Let's

6 call for a vote and see where we go. If it

7 stalls, maybe we can table it and find better

8 language.

9 MR. EISNER: All right, so with the

10 language that we have up there, "DOE will

11 consider proactive measures." Does anybody

12 object to this language?

13 PARTICIPANT: Well, does this mean

14 that DOE can show up at a contractor's door,

15 and say, "I want to see your records." Or,

16 does this mean --

17 MR. RAWALD: That was the question

18 Charlie and I were just speaking about, which

19 is I would not view that that way because

20 we're going to constrain the record production

21 requirement to a requirement that the

22 department has a reasonable belief that that
Page 113

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 particular entity has committed a violation. 

2 So, that specific requirement will therefore

3 trump any general idea that I can go out there

4 and proactively investigate things.

5 So, this language will not say that

6 I can do that. That will not be a proactive

7 measure that we will undertake.

8 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. If I

9 could ask a question? As I read this, I'm

10 interpreting it to mean that one of the

11 proactive measures among the many the DOE

12 would consider would be something like a

13 sting.

14 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

15 MR. DORIA: That the language would

16 open the possibility for that.

17 MR. RAWALD: Sure. But again,

18 that's not something I feel like we could do

19 today. So, it's something that -- but I think

20 Gary's point once again is to put out there

21 that there's something going on, so people

22 will realize, "I can be caught. So, I really
Page 114

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 need to be doing the right thing because DOE

2 is doing more than just waiting for people to

3 call me. They're out there doing their job

4 too."

5 Then he also wants DOE doing that,

6 of course. But that deterrent value is

7 important as well if I understand it. So, I

8 appreciate that. I don't mind saying, "We're

9 going to do our job in this way."

10 MR. EISNER: So, is there concern

11 about this language or do we want to come up

12 with something different? Doug is simply

13 saying he's going to add in the preamble,

14 "Don't think we have just reporting authority. 

15 We have other authority to do things like

16 stings, like surveys, and we will use them as

17 necessary or appropriate."

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I

19 thought Doug said he didn't know whether it

20 would go in the preamble or not, you know,

21 based on advice of attorneys. But I'm happy

22 with this, and I think we should call the
Page 115

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 question.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay, does anybody

3 object to this language? I see some informal

4 caucusing going on. Do we want to take a

5 break and talk among ourselves, or do we want

6 to take a vote?

7 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon from HARDI. 

8 This is something that if people end up having

9 objections to, we have no qualms about being

10 able to go back to it if people do end up

11 having objections. I'm okay with voting on it

12 now, but there's no reason we couldn't revisit

13 it if need be.

14 MR. HURST: Let's just take two

15 minutes. We can come back and agree on

16 something, but can we take a couple minutes?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Just a clarification

18 as a matter of process. I was of the

19 understanding that everything we were agreeing

20 to and not as we move through this process

21 could be subject to some reconsideration if

22 our constituents gave alternative direction. 
Page 116

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So, what --

2 MR. EISNER: Let's stop there now. 

3 This is scheduled to be our last meeting

4 unless we decide to go to the next meeting. 

5 So, if we want to end tomorrow, it's going to

6 be hard to come back after you go and talk to

7 your constituents.

8 I think if you need that, we do have

9 another meeting scheduled. But keep that in

10 mind.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Good observation. 

12 Thank you.

13 MR. EISNER: I'm not saying between

14 now and tomorrow night at 5:00 we can't come

15 back to this if we have to. We've got some

16 more contentious issues to get through also.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, before we take

18 our break to caucus, let me just reiterate

19 that I think this is really, really important

20 to me, and I believe the advocate group. And

21 I hope we can find some language that allows

22 us to be okay with this.
Page 117

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Okay, let's take five

2 minutes, and if you need more let me know.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

4 matter went off the record at 1:59 p.m. and

5 resumed at 2:09 p.m.) 

6 MR. EISNER: Alright, can everybody

7 take their seats? 

8 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And so this is

9 Charlie with ACCA, and we would like to go

10 back to the original language. I don't know

11 if you have it, if you don't, I have it right

12 here. We'll consider conducting a survey of

13 homes in each regions to determine if a

14 noncompliant unit has been installed.

15 MS. MYERS: This is Karen with

16 Rheem, I find that absolutely reasonable. 

17 Thank you, Gary. 

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Thank

20 you so much, Karen, because when you started

21 with the R word, I was hoping it was going to

22 be reasonable. 
Page 118

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is Charlie

3 with ACCA, speaking on behalf of ACCA, not of

4 everyone in the group. What I like about this

5 is I have always believed that the homeowner

6 is a last set of eye to the check. And we

7 can't guarantee the homeowner will be that

8 last set of eyes.

9 But this does encourage them, in a

10 survey, to look out and see is this -- and

11 this is, this protects, I think, the

12 contractor because he knows that the guy who's

13 going to undercut him has to be wary of that

14 homeowner getting that call.

15 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Anybody

16 have any objections to this language?

17 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with

18 Earthjustice. The one thing this leaves out

19 is the possibility of this staying, which I

20 don't know that we absolutely need that,

21 because at some point DOE is going to have to

22 buy SEER-13 units to test them for some
Page 119

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 reason. And, of course, it would make sense

2 to sort of kill two birds with one stone and

3 try to buy them from somebody in the south. 

4 But --

5 (Off-microphone comments.)

6 So I don't know we need a language

7 to cover that but, just want to raise it, it

8 does leave out that --

9 MR. RAWALD: Right.

10 MR. BALLO: -- the traditional

11 measure.

12 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. And

13 my perspective all along has been that we have

14 the authority to do that. We will consider

15 doing those things. And so I don't think it

16 needs to come from this group to say that we

17 want to say that. So that's my thought on it.

18 MR. EISNER: Others? Are you afraid

19 that this is going this is going to be too

20 limiting, because that's all they're going to

21 do?

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and, just
Page 120

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 wordsmithing, in any region it's not clear to

2 me why DOE might, has to be instructed to go

3 into every region.

4 MR. EISNER: Any objections to that? 

5 Anybody object to this language? Unanimously

6 adopted? Okay.

7 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary. Thank

8 you.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay, that takes us up

10 to slide number 14, Contractors and Dealers. 

11 Any comments? This is --

12 MR. RAWALD: This would be the

13 appropriate place for Charlie to discuss the

14 regional aspect of record-keeping.

15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay. So this is

16 Charlie. This was the appropriate place for

17 me to discuss the regional aspect of -- I

18 think that's the scope. Wait, correct?

19 MR. RAWALD: If you want to confine

20 it only to the contractors and dealers in the

21 southwest, southeast or, as you posed,

22 seemingly, this morning, to those operating
Page 121

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 only on the border.

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: No, no. I was not

3 proposing only those on the border. And I say

4 that because, to me, that implies those north

5 of the border. And so I believe that it

6 should be only those installations that occur

7 in the region, not the base. So that would be 

8 in the southeast or the southwest. And then

9 I'd leave it open to others.

10 MR. RAWALD: And the Department is

11 supportive of that limitation for

12 installations in the region -- in the regions.

13 MR. EISNER: Any comments?

14 MR. RAWALD: And so, Laura, if you

15 could make that only to installations in the

16 region. So it's not where the contractors and

17 dealers exist but where the installation

18 itself exists. Because we could have a

19 contractor that crosses the border either way. 

20 But they only need to keep records of things

21 that they install in the region for that

22 matter.
Page 122

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. BALLO: So I wonder how you

2 could -- if you could play that out a little

3 bit. Say you get a report of a non-compliant

4 installation. You find out it was installed

5 by someone who doesn't -- the contractor

6 doesn't have this information.

7 The distributor who sold it to the

8 contractor, who installed it out of region, is

9 that then the person you're going to be

10 looking to as far as maybe a violation

11 occurred there? Because you're not going to

12 find the contractor potentially.

13 MR. RAWALD: I'm trying to

14 understand the hypotheticals, Tim.

15 MR. BALLO: Well, I mean, I'm -- if

16 the contractor who installed it doesn't keep

17 a record -- never mind. Actually, I think I'm

18 tired.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. LATTANZI: Okay, this is Matt

21 Lattanzi of Nordyne. I have a question, a

22 little bit, on the scope. Under split system
Page 123

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 air conditioner we indicate the outdoor

2 condensing unit, manufacturer, model and

3 serial number. But then underneath that we

4 say complete indoor unit, manufacturer and

5 model number. Like to explore the -- why

6 we're indicating the indoor unit, and for two

7 reasons.

8 One, the indoor product, if it's an

9 air handler, coils is not a covered product

10 under EPCA. And, two, if we're tracking the

11 outdoor units and we rely on our discussions

12 earlier this morning regarding the least

13 efficient unit -- I'm sorry, the least

14 efficient rating, having to be the minimum in

15 the given region, why would we need records on

16 the indoor unit?

17 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. So I

18 guess I'll push back against the notion that

19 indoor units themselves are not regulated. So

20 we regulate, essentially, air conditioners as

21 a system. And we view -- this is going to

22 have two major parts to it -- the outdoor unit
Page 124

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 and the indoor unit, both of which are defined

2 in 430.2 CFR. And so we talk a lot about the

3 indoor unit.

4 And I've been using, appropriately,

5 I think, upon reflection now, for ten

6 meetings, the term coil interchangeably with

7 that when I should be speaking, I think, more

8 broadly of the term indoor unit to be more

9 accurate. But we do require the indoor unit,

10 when combined with the outdoor unit, to have

11 a certain performance level. And if we didn't

12 then you could have any indoor unit you want

13 to match with the condensing unit.

14 So we do require, if you are not the

15 manufacturer of the condensing unit -- so we

16 require, if you build an indoor unit and

17 you're going to, say, pair it with the

18 condensing unit, they have to perform at a

19 certain level.

20 And so because it's a system we want

21 to track both parts of the system. Now I

22 understand, from talking to the distributors,
Page 125

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that a lot of folks don't serialize indoor

2 units. And so we're not requiring the

3 serialization of that.

4 The only item we want the serial

5 number for is the condensing unit, what I

6 think is, makes it a little bit easier. But

7 we do believe that probably it's a function of

8 the system and that there are some folks who

9 decide to buy an outdoor unit from a major

10 manufacturer, but an indoor unit with somebody

11 else, a different manufacturer, or from an

12 independent coil manufacturer. And we want to

13 make sure that, as a system, will meet the

14 requirements. So we want to make sure we're

15 tracking it in the system.

16 MR. WHITE: So this is Chuck White. 

17 And that language is slightly different than

18 what we discussed last week and in your

19 clarification of indoor unit versus the other. 

20 But the thing that initially threw me, and I

21 know what we're talking about, but it

22 initially threw me -- you say complete indoor
Page 126

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 unit.

2 And I have some concern that some

3 people might think, well, I'm putting a

4 furnace and an A-coil in, so that's my

5 complete unit, when that's not what you mean. 

6 And what we talked about before was the coil

7 and-or the air handler or air mover, however

8 we talked about it. And I understand what

9 you're saying but I'm just -- my concern

10 there.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

12 And, once again, because I'm not as

13 technically adept as everyone else here, and

14 so I make mistakes. So I think we could drop

15 the word complete.

16 I just put it in there because I

17 want people to understand that we weren't

18 saying uncased coils. So we were making that

19 very clear, because there was a lot of

20 confusion based upon that, and I think brought

21 upon by my me, and I want to make sure we

22 clarify that
Page 127

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So an indoor unit is defined as a

2 component of a split system air conditioner,

3 central air conditioner or a heat pump -- but

4 that's not apply, applicable here -- designed

5 to transfer heat between the afferent and the

6 indoor air and which consists of an indoor

7 coil, a cooling mode expansion device and may

8 include an air moving device. So that's the

9 definition we want to apply. And so if

10 dropping the word complete alleviates your

11 concern, I'm game for that, Chuck.

12 MR. WHITE: All right. I think that

13 would help some people. 

14 MR. RAWALD: Great, let's do it. 

15 Let's dump, let's leave that word.

16 MR. WINNINGHAM: Doug, this is Dave

17 with Allied Air. I mean, previously we talked

18 about replacement situations where it's a

19 condenser-only replacement and that, you know,

20 if that unit had a valid rating for the area,

21 knowing that the indoor system may or may not

22 be changed, is that part of this requirement
Page 128

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 or --

2 MR. RAWALD: So would you be

3 required to keep the record of replacing a

4 condensing unit in the region is the question,

5 if you want to replace the condensing unit. 

6 And my answer would be yes, because that's

7 still what -- that's what we want to show that

8 if you -- because that has to be, the

9 condensing unit itself has to be a 14-SEER

10 condensing unit, still, in that situation.

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: But other that, are

12 you only requiring the documentation for the

13 outdoor section?

14 MR. RAWALD: Because that's all

15 you're installing. Right. If you're not

16 installing any other piece you don't have to

17 keep records of it.

18 MS. MYERS: So this is Karen with

19 Rheem. I don't really have a problem with

20 this. I think this significantly increases

21 the record keeping burden to not -- and I

22 don't really think it gets you that much
Page 129

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 benefit. So that's just the only comment I

2 would make.

3 I mean, keeping the record on

4 outdoor unit is going to be 95 percent of the

5 information you need. And so this is a lot of

6 extra burden and I'm just not sure why it's in

7 there. That's just, you know.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Karen, my

9 hope is that when the contractor receipts the

10 sale or when they're done with the sale they

11 put it on the same receipt, you know, the

12 model number and the serial number for the

13 condensing unit and then the model number and

14 the manufacturer or the brand of the indoor

15 unit.

16 And that's it. And as long as

17 they're doing that's, that's going to meet the

18 need. Or, when they have their bidding that

19 they say this is what we're going to give you. 

20 A 3-ton upload is going to be the Carrier

21 outdoor for these specs and also this

22 particular indoor unit from Aspen or Allstyle,
Page 130

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 some independent coil manufacturer.

2 MR. ROCKY: Yes, this is Bryan

3 Rocky. So I think, Doug, that when all the

4 components are being replaced that's

5 acceptable. I think the confusion comes from

6 the discussion of you have a replacement

7 condenser you're now going to require them to

8 tell you what furnace, air handler or coil was

9 installed as part of that system. And that's

10 not the intent.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right.

12 MR. ROCKY: I don't think.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

14 And so if you're not adding the thing to the

15 house, if it's already there, you don't have

16 to have receipt for it. It's just what you're

17 putting in the house you have to receipt for

18 and explain.

19 MR. AMRANE: Doug, this is Karim. 

20 But are you requiring this only for when you 

21 are just replacing the indoor coil as well? 

22 You will have to report that?
Page 131

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: So if you were in a

2 situation where you came to a house and you

3 were to replace the indoor unit, a condenser

4 -- and not to replace the coil but replace the

5 indoor unit which, I think, is on the more

6 rare side. It sounds like we're replacing

7 more often the coil or the thing within the

8 indoor unit, not the entire indoor unit.

9 But if you were to replace the

10 entire indoor unit we would ask for you, on

11 the receipt you give your customer, to put the

12 manufacturer and the model number and to keep

13 that receipt for five years. That's what we

14 would ask.

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim again. 

16 What will be the purpose? I mean, is this for

17 DOE? I don't understand. If you're replacing

18 just the indoor coil what will be the intent

19 for you?

20 MR. RAWALD: So I want to be

21 careful. I'm not saying the coil. I'm saying

22 the indoor unit. Because if you're replacing
Page 132

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the coil that's a service part, so. But if

2 you're replacing the indoor unit, in our

3 perception the indoor unit still has to be

4 certified as being able to perform at a

5 certain level with a pair of something,

6 somewhere out there.

7 You can't just replace an indoor

8 unit with something that's not out there as

9 being capable of performing at a certain

10 level.

11 MS. MEYERS: So if your indoor unit

12 is a gas furnace you have to keep the model

13 number? If you're just going out and

14 replacing a gas furnace, which, that's your

15 indoor unit, so. 

16 MR. RAWALD: I thought the indoor

17 unit, as I defined it under 430.2, right, so

18 -- as I understand it. So if I'm looking at

19 the indoor unit as defined in 430.2, the

20 component of a split system air conditioner

21 that is designed to transfer heat between a

22 refrigerant and the indoor air and which
Page 133

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 consists of an indoor coil, a cooling mode

2 expansion device and a main cooling air moving

3 device.

4 I understand that furnaces interact

5 with these things but I'm not asking you to

6 keep track of the furnace. The furnace is not

7 what we're regulating here.

8 MS. MEYERS: It's --

9 MR. SACHS: Doug?

10 MR. RAWALD: Yes?

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. When

12 you use those words, which may be as defined

13 in 430.2, it evokes a strong reaction for even

14 those of us who've had minimal contact.

15 And let me try to give you one

16 perspective on it. You said it may include

17 the air moving. If I change out the motor I

18 can get about or a point less of SEER

19 equivalent by moving to a better or lesser

20 motor. If I change out the coil and go to a

21 slightly smaller one because it then, had it

22 been rated with instead of a bigger one, we
Page 134

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 get the same sort of change.

2 So that, given that we are focused

3 for enforcement of the Regional Rule on the

4 outdoor unit and that had some compromises

5 that concern some people, to now circle back

6 on this peculiar regulatory definition of

7 indoor unit which, to most of us, connotes two

8 things -- the furnace or other air handler

9 plus the evaporator unit -- it just sort of

10 boggled the eyes and reverberated around the

11 gears inside, I think, for pretty much

12 everybody in the room.

13 I don't understand why, if my

14 enforcement of Regional is more than 99

15 percent focused on the condensing unit by what

16 we've already adopted, why we would be

17 recording any information on anything inside

18 the house except the diameter of the

19 refrigerant line. No, you don't need that.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is

21 Doug. And so what I have been reminded by the

22 people that I work for is that central air
Page 135

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 conditioner is the system. We regulate the

2 system. The system has a performance value,

3 which is dictated both by the pairing of the

4 outdoor and the indoor unit.

5 Now it's clear to me, from an

6 enforcement point of view, it's going to be

7 easier to focus on the outdoor unit. But a

8 contractor could not install a properly tested

9 and compliant SEER-14 condensing unit with a

10 coil that's not certified to work with it and

11 that's not going to actually help it perform

12 at SEER-14.

13 So we have to know that the coil

14 that's installed with it, that's installed in

15 the system, is the appropriate coil to help it

16 achieve the value that the manufacturer has

17 certified it as. Or else what's the point of

18 the manufacturer doing all this work to make

19 sure their product performs? If somebody's

20 going to be able to put an indoor unit in with

21 the condensing unit it's going to degrade its

22 performance.
Page 136

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. SACHS: I, Harvey Sachs, might

2 do that to get better humidity control in the

3 swamps in Biloxi. And I don't want you to

4 know about it, but that's a different issue,

5 I think. But we're confounding the questions

6 of what the manufacturer is certifying with

7 the enforcement of the Regional standard. But

8 Karim is much better than I am --

9 MR. AMRANE: Yes, I mean, I guess,

10 Doug, I think from your system, when you're

11 replacing the indoor and outdoor, I think you

12 are absolutely right. I mean, you want to do

13 that, obviously.

14 But let's say I have a 10 year old

15 unit, okay. It's a 10-SEER, okay. It still

16 has maybe five more years to go. And now you

17 are basically requiring, if my coil goes bad,

18 I need to change my indoor coil, and now I

19 have to basically replace it with a coil that

20 is not matched with my 10-SEER but it's

21 matched with a 14-SEER or 13-SEER.

22 It doesn't -- you know, so in this
Page 137

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 case you might even have issues with how the

2 system would work, its reliability, its

3 performance. So I -- that's why I think if

4 you're replacing the coil only I'm not sure

5 why you want to go that way.

6 MR. RAWALD: And I want to be very,

7 very careful because -- and I hear -- we had

8 this conversation a couple weeks ago with the

9 folks from Mortex who, Terry Small who

10 presented the scenario of the larger coil

11 versus the smaller coil.

12 We're not talking about replacing

13 only the coil. So, and I guess I want to hear

14 from the contractors how often do you go to a

15 job and you replace the entire indoor unit, as

16 opposed to the innards of the indoor unit, the

17 coil itself? I mean, is it a very common

18 scenario where you will show up at a home and

19 you will replace the entire indoor unit?

20 MR. SACHS: Again, Doug, this is

21 Harvey, I don't think you can ask them to

22 answer that until you've articulated clearly,
Page 138

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 and I think it's going to require some

2 language change, that says in this context

3 indoor unit means the following because of

4 that ambiguity about whether that includes the

5 most common air handling unit which is a

6 furnace, or excludes that.

7 MR. RAWALD: I guess I'm confused,

8 Harvey, because 430.2 defines indoor unit. So

9 indoor units a defined term that we have in

10 our regulations. And I'm not saying the parts

11 of the indoor unit. I'm saying the indoor

12 unit.

13 MR. SACHS: Okay.

14 MR. RAWALD: If you --

15 MR. SACHS: And I'm just saying that

16 we, people might be able to live with that, if

17 that language is redundantly repeated and

18 redundantly right here. So it's -- because I

19 think that I'm not the only person in the room

20 who grabbed an entirely different meaning,

21 particularly when it had that prefatory word,

22 what was it, completed. That just, complete
Page 139

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 indoor unit just totally blew me away.

2 MS. MEYERS: And correct me if I'm

3 wrong, but 430 dot whatever it is -- talks

4 about how you test and certify your units.

5 MR. RAWALD: No, 430.2 is

6 definition. So it's -- defines everything

7 that we have in 430.

8 MS. MEYERS: So, read that back to

9 me one more time.

10 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

11 MS. MEYERS: Because your gas

12 furnace is your air mover, in most of your

13 installations. So know that when you're

14 reading that back to me.

15 MR. RAWALD: Right. Okay. Indoor

16 unit means a component of a split system

17 central air conditioner or a heat pump that is

18 designed to transfer heat between the

19 refrigerant and the indoor air.

20 MS. MEYERS: Okay, so stop right

21 there. The transfer of heat is your -- it's

22 going to be your air-moving device. Your
Page 140

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 air-moving device, in several installations,

2 is going to be your gas furnace. Because it's

3 got the motor in it, it's got -- it's going to

4 blow it through the duct system. I mean,

5 maybe somebody can -- I mean, that's the way

6 I --

7 MR. RAWALD: Do you want me to read

8 the rest of that definition?

9 MS. MEYERS: Yes, sorry, Doug.

10 MR. RAWALD: And which consists of

11 an indoor coil, a coiling mode expansion

12 device and may include an air-moving device.

13 MR. WHITE: Okay, this is Chuck

14 White. And I can envision a lot of scenarios

15 here, so I'm being careful to limit myself to

16 things that are kind of germane. Two weeks

17 ago or three weeks ago, four weeks ago,

18 whenever, Bryan talked about finished goods

19 which were a case, a coil,

20 refrigerant-metering device. That was the

21 product. And the coil was the replacement

22 part.
Page 141

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 That's not your definition. And

2 that's not your fault that we didn't have that

3 at our thumb at the moment. Tim couldn't look

4 that standard up quick enough for us, I guess.

5 But, as you read, the heat exchange

6 device is the coil, the thing with the

7 aluminum fins on it that transfers. It's got

8 a metering device. Okay, that's fine. We

9 haven't said anything about the cased coil,

10 the casing, so that's out of the picture in

11 your definition.

12 So now I have a real hard time --

13 may include the fan, may not. I guess whether

14 the context of the top of the page that

15 describes the definition, the category of

16 definitions, your aim, whether that helps us

17 take the furnace off the hook or not.

18 What I envision we're talking about

19 is your basic electric furnace, where the

20 motor, and the coil and everything, is one 

21 cabinet put together. I see how you could

22 think, because it may or may not include the
Page 142

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 fan, it might be the fan in the furnace. I

2 don't know that we can fix that in there.

3 But the problem we've got here is,

4 how do I know that coil is a component or --

5 because now we've taken away the coils within

6 that slides in my casing. Now your definition

7 of our indoor unit is that coil. And it's the

8 same thing whether I'm going to be a component

9 or whether I'm going to be the system.

10 I understand. If we're putting in a

11 matched system, brand new, straight out of the

12 box, those numbers all have to match. I also

13 see -- and this where I'm stepping on my wrong

14 side of my own self-interest -- gee, your coil

15 is bad, so I'm going to put in a SEER-13 coil

16 or whatever happens to fit.

17 And, guess what, two days from now

18 your condensing unit is bad. Gee, now I got

19 to change that too. So I think, from your

20 perspective, if we are upgrading components in

21 the south, you want them to be upgraded to the

22 current standard because you have this other
Page 143

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 half that's sitting out in the garden that we

2 may change later.

3 And then, at that point that will

4 have to be 14 and, lo and behold, we end up

5 with a 14 system. Everything works out. 

6 Karim is right that sometimes that SEER-14

7 coil that I put in is not going to work with

8 that SEER-8, 9 or 10 that's sitting out in the

9 garden. 

10 Or it's not going to work very well. 

11 Or some of these folks around the table are

12 going to get a call from some of my folks

13 saying, your piece of equipment isn't any

14 good, what did you do to me? Kind of an

15 unintended consequence. So I don't know if

16 I've helped here or not, but the way you have

17 read the definition, I think we're talking

18 about the day coil and metering device,

19 whether it's a piston or expansion valve,

20 whatever it might be.

21 And if it's in -- whether you want

22 to put that in this here to kind of define it
Page 144

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 better, or put an exclusion in there, not

2 talking about gas furnaces, oil furnaces,

3 separate appliances that provide the air

4 moving. I don't know how we'd clarify that. 

5 But probably I've just confused things more. 

6 If I did, I apologize.

7 MR. RAWALD: Well, my impression is

8 that we are talking about finished product. 

9 I mean, you have a finished product as

10 assembled. So not the individual parts of

11 this finished product, not the coil itself,

12 not the expansion valve itself, not the

13 furnace.

14 But if you installed a, as I called

15 it improperly, complete indoor unit, so an

16 indoor unit that consists of all these parts,

17 then you have to have a receipt saying here's

18 the model of the indoor unit.

19 But if you're just replacing the

20 coil or you're replacing the TXV or any of

21 those other then you just -- that doesn't have

22 to be retained. But if you're replacing the
Page 145

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 indoor unit into a system in the south, the

2 southwest, you should have a receipt which has

3 the manufacturer and the model number of the

4 indoor unit that you've installed.

5 That's what my understanding of my

6 marching orders coming in here on this says. 

7 Now we can discuss it further about that. And

8 if folks are saying, hey, that's not possible,

9 in a replacement situation we can't do that,

10 then I will go back and let's folks know

11 you're saying it's impossible. That's how I

12 understood it, what I was told I had to ask

13 for here.

14 MS. MEYERS: So, okay, closer to

15 what you're wanting, but what if you just

16 replace the outdoor unit? That's just a part

17 of a system. You're saying they don't have to

18 keep the record there?

19 MR. RAWALD: I'm saying they do. I

20 mean, so we're saying if you replace the

21 condensing unit you have to keep, once again,

22 the manufacturer, the model number, serial
Page 146

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 number of the outdoor unit. And the outdoor

2 unit has to be certified as being able to

3 perform at 14 --

4 MS. MEYERS: Correct.

5 MR. RAWALD: -- even though it won't

6 with that particular indoor unit that's

7 already in there. But it has to be a 14-SEER

8 indoor-outdoor unit.

9 MR. WHITE: So here's Chuck White,

10 and I've got a question for, I guess, the

11 manufacturer, perhaps Karim, that we have this

12 condensing unit-evaporator relationship.

13 And I highly suspect that it's a

14 one-way street. So the condensing unit rules

15 and we match up evaporators to that to get our

16 -- so is it possible that we will have a

17 condensing unit that will be a SEER-14 only

18 and it will have, for the sake of argument,

19 six evaporator numbers. And that makes your

20 match 14.

21 But one of those evaporator numbers

22 could also show up somewhere else on the chart
Page 147

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 with a unit that has a SEER-13 rating. So as

2 long as that evaporator has a SEER-14 rating

3 it matches to a condensing unit somewhere at

4 SEER-14, it would be appropriate to use? Is

5 that a fair question? Is that a fair

6 solution?

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Chuck, this is

8 David at Allied. And, looking around the room

9 here, yes, there are evaporator coils that are

10 used at multiple levels of efficiency. You

11 can have the same evaporator coil be matched

12 with 13, 14, 16 and above.

13 MR. WHITE: So does -- Chuck White

14 -- so does that solve our issue? I mean, we,

15 on the condensing unit we've said it has to be

16 SEER-14 and no lower. But are we opening a

17 new can of worms on the evaporator side? 

18 Because I don't think you're going to find

19 evaporators that are going to be SEER-14 and

20 no lower.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I haven't

22 said that. All I said was that if it's, if
Page 148

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you were replacing the whole indoor unit --

2 and this is not the coil, so, once again, if

3 you were replacing the whole indoor unit what

4 I understood was our intent was to require,

5 just like that it has to be able to perform --

6 MR. WHITE: But it --

7 MR. RAWALD: -- at 14. But it could

8 perform below that because --

9 MR. WHITE: But that could be a

10 complete finished product, what we're calling

11 a unit. It could be an A-coil -- inside a

12 cabinet, the whole package. It's a unit, and

13 it could show up in this condensing unit where

14 it's used as a 14. It could show up over here

15 as a 13.

16 But given its capacity, its BTU

17 ability and its size constraints, because its

18 SEER is a 14, it meets as a 14. But I can

19 install it over here because it fits even

20 though, technically, it's probably not going

21 to be a 14 application at that point.

22 MR. RAWALD: Because of the
Page 149

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 condensing unit that's already existing in

2 that situation it's not going to be -- I mean,

3 it's not going to be replaced, so --

4 MR. WHITE: Right.

5 MR. RAWALD: Absolutely. Yes,

6 absolutely. That's the same thing we're

7 saying, in reverse, right? I mean, that

8 condensing unit is going into a situation

9 where it's not actually going to be a 14,

10 because it's going to be constrained by the

11 indoor unit that's already in there.

12 MR. ROCKY: So this is Bryan, GSES. 

13 My question is actually to Charlie and Chuck

14 for a second. And I'm thinking -- we're

15 talking record retention. So you replace an

16 indoor unit next month. Do we want the

17 contractor to keep that record? So they put

18 it in, as Chuck talked about earlier, and,

19 because you have an issue, a field issue with

20 the indoor unit, that coil.

21 Six months later the homeowner's

22 going to replace the outdoor unit when the
Page 150

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 compressor goes bad. If the indoor unit has

2 been tracked as a current product, now they

3 have validation that that product matches part

4 of a new system with a new outdoor unit.

5 So do we -- this is just keeping the

6 record. Does it make that much difference or

7 does it help validate that the unit, the

8 replacement condenser is now part of a valid

9 system?

10 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

11 And so, speaking personally, and probably for

12 many of my members and probably for a number

13 of Charlie's, probably most of them, I will

14 have that record.

15 If I changed an evaporator three

16 months ago, I'll have it. The wild card here

17 is I may not be the guy changing the

18 condensing unit in six months. So they may

19 not know that and, unless Doug wants to

20 establish a statute of limitations, once

21 something's installed it's an existing system.

22 So changing the components in a
Page 151

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 different time frame, I mean, it would be nice

2 to have the 14 so that it does match. But I

3 don't think, by this scenario of we're

4 changing components, that that's going to be

5 a necessary requirement.

6 But, and kind of circling back,

7 Doug, your question earlier, I would say coil

8 change-outs are significantly less, as a

9 service call, significantly less than changing

10 a condensing unit, probably, easily, 4 to 1,

11 maybe 5 to 1, could be more. Changing indoor

12 coils happens, but it's not the most common

13 occurrence.

14 MR. RAWALD: I guess my question was

15 also how often do you just pull the coil out

16 of the indoor unit, as opposed to pulling out

17 the whole entire indoor unit and replacing

18 that? It seems to me, what I've been hearing,

19 folks, is what you're more likely to do is

20 say, hey, your coil's leaking. Let me take

21 out the coil portion here and put it in the

22 box that's already in there in the attic, and
Page 152

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 not change the whole box, because what we're

2 talking about is the whole box.

3 MR. WHITE: Right. And if I have a

4 cased coil that has a bad coil in it I'm going

5 to try and find the exact thing to fit in it

6 because it's the least amount of time to do

7 something. And time rules the roost.

8 And the minimum amount of time is

9 what you're looking for. It reduces cost and

10 it gives your people more things to do, more

11 jobs to do per day, per week, per month. 

12 That's the goal. So if it's possible to fit

13 it in the box, that's what we're going to do.

14 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

15 Rheem. The majority of split system air

16 conditioners are installed with coils that sit

17 on top of a gas furnace. The only time you're

18 really pulling a coil out of a unit and

19 replacing that whole indoor unit because you

20 have a bad coil it's probably in south Florida

21 where the majority of condensing units are

22 installed with air handlers or electric
Page 153

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 furnaces, because they have such a low heat

2 load.

3 So the way this reads today, I think

4 we need to either delete and may include an

5 air handler -- because I think what you're

6 wanting -- I think you do want the coil model

7 number and the condensing unit model number,

8 if you're replacing the entire system.

9 But a coil will sit inside an air

10 handler which is either installed with a heat

11 pump -- that's the way heat pumps are

12 installed, it's with an air handler. 

13 Condensing units are primarily installed with

14 gas furnaces.

15 And in that case you usually have a

16 case coil sitting on top of that gas furnace. 

17 And if you're just going to replace the coil

18 you're just going to take that coil off and

19 put another coin on. You're not going to

20 touch the gas furnace.

21 So I think it's -- I think there's a

22 disconnect between how units are installed and
Page 154

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the definition and the reason for records

2 retention. So if this, is we were talking

3 about heat pumps I would totally get this

4 definition, but we're not.

5 And so that's why I'm just, I'm

6 struggling with it, because most contract --

7 when you're talking about keeping records

8 retention on condensing units and you say the

9 indoor unit, the first question that they're

10 going to say, ask, is does that mean a gas

11 furnace? Because they consider that the

12 indoor unit. And they consider the coil the

13 coil.

14 So, you know, unless you said the

15 indoor coil, I mean, that makes sense. But --

16 or you tell them they've got to keep the

17 record on a gas furnace too. But usually a

18 whole new system, I mean, at least in my many

19 years of experience. It's usually the outdoor

20 unit and the coil that are getting replaced,

21 not always with a gas furnace. And I think

22 that's --
Page 155

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And we're not

2 trying to regulate the furnace. So I don't

3 want to make people record the furnace

4 information. I mean, so if you think it's

5 better to say indoor coil, that's fine. I

6 want to do what makes sense, what people will

7 understand, that we would keep.

8 MS. MEYERS: I think that makes

9 sense. I mean, I look to other people around

10 the room. But I think indoor coil would make

11 sense. And you could also include, I mean,

12 I don't know how many people actually put an

13 expansion valve on in the field. I mean, I

14 think most of them are shipped with a coil,

15 installed with a coil.

16 But, I mean, that's the cooling

17 mode, expansion device. I mean, you can just

18 go and change out a TXV, which is your

19 expansion device, because it could have gone

20 bad.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right, but we would --

22 MS. MEYERS: I don't think that's
Page 156

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 what you're looking for here.

2 MR. RAWALD: We don't care about

3 that.

4 MS. MEYERS: That's just a

5 component.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right.

7 MS. MEYERS: So I think maybe you

8 could just say coil, and that would --

9 MR. WHITE: Could you say indoor

10 coil-indoor unit? I guess I -- indoor coil

11 will make it much more usable and

12 understandable to probably 80 or 90 percent of

13 the people doing this.

14 MR. RAWALD: Then let's do that. 

15 That's what we want to do. We want it to be

16 understandable. We want people to understand

17 what the rules look like. And if indoor coil

18 is the way to go, that's what I want to hear 

19 from you guys.

20 MR. WHITE: Right, but --

21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. But

22 because then we don't want to a record
Page 157

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 retention for the indoor coil, right? This is

2 not what we want.

3 MS. MEYERS: Well, I agree that it's

4 really significantly increases the

5 record-keeping burden. But I think if you

6 have the records retention on the outdoor unit

7 it's primarily the piece of information that

8 you need. But, you know, the -- I do, I agree

9 with you, Karim. I'm still questioning why

10 we're doing records retention on the indoor

11 coil. But, you know, if --

12 MR. AMRANE: I think this is just a

13 question of semantics here, because indoor

14 unit, I guess, unless you read the definition,

15 as you read it, Doug, people will not

16 understand really what are we talking about.

17 Are we talking about the coil? Are we talking

18 about the whole indoor unit? And that's maybe

19 where the confusion is.

20 MR. RAWALD: Well, let's say --

21 MR. AMRANE: If I listened correctly

22 you were not asking for record retention on
Page 158

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the coil itself, right? I'm asking Doug. I

2 don't know. I mean --

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So let's say,

4 let's attack it from a different angle. In

5 the AHRI certification database -- and, Karim,

6 stand up still, because I'm really directing

7 it toward you, you'll be the best answer to

8 this. When you report a combination that's,

9 your member has certified, you have model

10 numbers for the condensing unit and what? 

11 What is the second model number for?

12 MR. AMRANE: The coil.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right, so it seems to

14 me that's what we want then, right? Because

15 what we want to do is we want to do is we want

16 to be able to look at the database that has

17 been certified by AHRI or by us, and to be

18 able to ascertain that, yes, in a complete

19 system, this is the one that has a 14, so it's

20 okay.

21 Or, in the case of a replacement,

22 this is the one that makes sense. But what
Page 159

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the concern I'm hearing from the room is we

2 don't really want to track replacements of

3 coils only. That's the concern.

4 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. That's

5 correct. Yes.

6 MR. RAWALD: So, but if it's

7 complete, if it's in a complete system being

8 installed, would everyone agree what should be

9 retained is both the outdoor and the indoor

10 number?

11 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

12 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

13 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. Yes.

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So what people

15 are worried about is if we're replacing only

16 the indoor coil do we really need to keep

17 track of the indoor coil, okay?

18 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

19 MR. RAWALD: So how about this. Let

20 me go back and ask that question, if in the

21 replacement of the indoor coil only, if we can

22 not keep track of that and only keep the
Page 160

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 indoor coil for the purposes of a complete

2 system install, okay? So that's what I'll ask

3 the Department tonight.

4 MR. SACHS: Doug, I think the --

5 this is Harvey, and I think the secondary

6 issue that a number of people have brought out

7 is that ambiguity in the definition. When it

8 says indoor unit, somehow, I think it has to

9 be clarified as referring to the coil assembly

10 and exclusive of the air handler, unless you

11 mean to include air handler. I had the

12 complete furnace, indoor coil, outdoor

13 condenser, and everything else done when

14 everything was near the end of its service

15 life.

16 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

17 MR. SACHS: So I think we need that

18 clarification.

19 MR. RAWALD: Well, if we change it

20 to indoor coil then it's clarified, right? 

21 And if we use the word indoor coil we're

22 presuming that that's clear.
Page 161

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. SACHS: I think so.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So that's what

3 I'll go back tonight and ask on this slide. 

4 So give me a chance to work on this tonight

5 and we can come back to it. Any other

6 concerns on this particular slide?

7 MS. MEYERS: I do have one more

8 question, sorry. Is this just 13 and 14-SEER

9 units?

10 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so what we

11 had discussed earlier was that it was going to

12 be limited to people who install in the

13 southeast and southwest. But that was the

14 only constraint that I was prepared to put on

15 it. So now what is the ask here? So I guess

16 I need to see the scope of the ask so I can

17 bring that back. What I'm prepared to agree

18 to is installations only in the southeast and

19 the southwest. I am not prepared to agree to

20 anything else, but I can ask the question.

21 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this

22 slide?
Page 162

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. LATTANZI: So, yes, this is Matt

2 Lattanzi with Nordyne. And I got sort of a

3 question for the manufacturers. But this

4 might be helpful for you, Doug, when you go

5 back tonight. With respect to the wording,

6 indoor unit, relative to it being and air

7 handler, Doug, I believe you commented that

8 the thought was you want to make sure that air

9 handler was capable of achieving the rating

10 within region with some matched outdoor.

11 When I think about our product line,

12 and this is where I'm looking for help from

13 the other manufacturers, I struggle to think

14 about an air handler that we would make that

15 wouldn't be capable of making 14-Seer. I

16 believe all of them would. So if -- I'll

17 throw that out there for the other

18 manufacturers -- if I got that wrong, please

19 jump in.

20 (Off-microphone comments.)

21 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, which is a good

22 reason, again, to switch to indoor. And,
Page 163

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 hearing nobody respond negatively, I think I'm

2 correct on this, that we're not going to make

3 an air handler that isn't capable of making

4 14-SEER with an outdoor unit. And I was just

5 hoping that might be helpful in your

6 discussions later.

7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie

8 with the ACCA, and, Doug, I think I heard you

9 say that, looking at scope, looking at

10 southeast, southwest only. But were you, are

11 you not prepared to eliminate from the

12 record-keeping in the requirement of the

13 scope, 15 and above?

14 MR. RAWALD: So I don't have

15 authorization to agree to that at the moment,

16 so I'd have to go back and talk it. Here's

17 the concern, is I don't want to walk into a

18 contractor's house and then for him to say,

19 oh, I don't have records for that. They're

20 all above 15.

21 So I need to be able to see the

22 scope of his records so I can really see that
Page 164

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 he's -- what is business is. And so if I give

2 some sort of ability to carve out records,

3 that's a concern. And also, if it's not a

4 regularized practice where you're doing it

5 always, people are more likely to kind of

6 forget to do it. Because, oh, this is a

7 15-SEER one and I don't have to do it.

8 So I think, from a department point

9 of view, I like the fact that they would have

10 to do it for all the installation they do in

11 the south, because then they're more likely to

12 do it properly, from my vantage point of

13 having done this kind of stuff. So, but I

14 will, if you want to -- for me to ask a

15 question, to put a constraint on there, I will

16 bring it back to the folks I work for.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie. I

18 would appreciate that because I think that for

19 -- what I'd like to hear most is reasons not

20 to limit the scope. And I think that I

21 understand what you're saying about sort of

22 routineness of keeping records.
Page 165

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 And I think I understand the idea

2 about carving out, I guess, an exemption here

3 -- or, not carving out an exemption, but it

4 just seems to me that the same reason we're

5 limiting the scope to regions, there doesn't

6 seem to be any particular reason of purpose to

7 keep records on, say, 17, 18, 19, 21 and

8 23-SEER units.

9 MR. RAWALD: Okay, so you don't want

10 to draw the line at 15? Is that the ask?

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I guess I'd say 14

12 and below.

13 MR. RAWALD: So 14.2 -- I don't know

14 how this -- I don't know how the numbering

15 works, really. I guess I'm going to look at

16 the manufacturer. Are 14.2s that are 14.5s,

17 are there 14.8s? I mean --

18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay.

19 MR. RAWALD: Are those -- where do

20 those factor in? Are those kept or are they

21 not kept in your mind?

22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with
Page 166

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Allied. I think we need to think about that

2 a little bit because the labeling rules are

3 changing. And we're also changing what we're

4 proposing here, as far as the minimum

5 efficiency being the base.

6 So I don't think you're going to

7 find a lot of products that are, you know,

8 you're going to have 13 that are the base. 

9 But they're going to have rating up to

10 whatever level. You're going to have 14-SEER

11 products that have rating up to 16 and

12 whatever.

13 So I don't know. I think we need to

14 think about how, where there threshold might

15 fall, because I think you're going to have

16 products at 14 and then anything above 14.0

17 you probably shouldn't have to keep records

18 for. But I don't know that a lot of

19 manufacturers are going to have designs that

20 are above that. But there are also, you know,

21 what people do as far as rating practices

22 needs to be considered also.
Page 167

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White and

2 on this slide you have some homework. And I

3 think I'd like to talk with Charlie a little

4 bit about this ourselves too. So maybe we can

5 talk about this first thing in the morning?

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm

7 hearing two things. One of them I'm hearing

8 from Dave is if I have a condensing unit

9 that's most commonly sold in a way that's at 

10 14.5, 14.4, whatever, there still may be some

11 combinations that may be attractive for a

12 particular application to a contractor that

13 might be above 15.

14 Does he, with the 14 Rule, when

15 we're focused on the condensing unit, does he

16 have to just keep a record on that one, or not

17 have to keep a record on that one, where his

18 rated performance for that installation is

19 15.2 or something like that?

20 So there's that complication. And

21 if I try to think about being a contractor,

22 premium contractor, I'm going to be selling a
Page 168

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 lot more 15s and above, or 14s and above

2 including a mix going a way on up, than 13s,

3 regardless of where I am.

4 And I might want to be able to

5 present my whole file cabinet to show that,

6 yes, there were two 13s in there but that was

7 half of one percent of my sales. And so, to

8 me, there is an argument for simplifying a

9 Doug investigation and having it focus on the

10 condensing unit labeled as 14 or anything

11 above 14.

12 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I mean, I guess,

13 Harvey, I'll do you one better which is if I'm

14 looking later on at a routine violator and you

15 come back and say, well, look, Doug, I have

16 records of 95 percent of my installs are these

17 16-SEER ones, I'm not a guy who typically

18 violates. I made a mistake here.

19 I'm going to be more compelled to

20 find that, oh, yeah, that really was a mistake

21 than the other option. So I think it's --

22 that's helpful for me to see the complete
Page 169

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 picture. And so that's why I would ask.

2 I'm not saying this is incredibly

3 burdensome. I, as an enforcement guy, it's

4 better for me just keep all the records and

5 then let's like we can talk about them. 

6 That's my thought.

7 So, just to kind of where we are,

8 so, Charlie and Chuck are going to talk about

9 it a little more. I'm going to go back

10 tonight and ask if there is any ability in the

11 Department to kind of desire a cutoff at a

12 threshold above 14, as well as the other

13 issues we had. Now there's a comment over

14 here?

15 MR. BALLO: Doug, let me give you

16 another scenario. You've gotten a report that

17 there's a non-compliant unit installed in the

18 south. You trace it down to a contractor who

19 got it from a distributor. The contractor

20 says, well, I installed that unit in the

21 north. I don't know how it got there on the

22 other side of the border. You don't have any
Page 170

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 records at that point. You can't really prove

2 that that contractor installed it. Contractor

3 can't prove he didn't install it. What do you

4 do?

5 MR. RAWALD: So am I presuming that

6 I found it in a house that's on the southern

7 side of that water?

8 MR. BALLO: Yes.

9 MR. RAWALD: Okay, so it's, the

10 question is how do I prove that that guy

11 actually installed that particular unit in

12 that place. So -- and I don't have any

13 records from the homeowner about who actually

14 installed that for them?

15 MR. BALLO: Yes, I mean, I guess

16 you could treat the contractor as a

17 distributor at that point, although if there's

18 no prohibited act for a distributor then I

19 don't know what you get out of it.

20 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I mean, I don't

21 believe that's an actual scenario so I think

22 there's other things I can look at to kind of
Page 171

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 track it down. But I get what you're saying, 

2 is that there could be a gap. I think that

3 there is, there's more investigation that

4 could be done. I mean, I have a non-compliant

5 unit in a house, so I can at least move from

6 that to something.

7 MR. MELCHI: This I Jon with HARDI. 

8 Doug, if, to Tim's scenario, DOE would still

9 have the ability to subpoena a contractor's

10 records in the north. It may not exactly line

11 up with what you're specifying here, correct,

12 if maybe you assume that's what's going on?

13 MR. RAWALD: If we have information

14 that leads us to believe that a contractor who

15 resides in the north did an installation in

16 the south, then we'd have reason to subpoena

17 his records, right. Correct.

18 MR. EISNER: Any more on this? No

19 more assignments? All right, then we're going

20 to take a 15-minute break, come back at 3:15? 

21 Tim will be revived and join us again.

22 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter
Page 172

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 went off the record at 3:01 p.m. and went back

2 on the record at 3:18 p.m.)

3 MR. EISNER: All right. We're ready

4 to talk about slide number 15.

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Actually, this is

6 Charlie with ACCA. Before we move on, Chuck

7 and I, Chuck from PHCC, had a conversation

8 during the break, and we had asked or I had

9 asked about looking at the scope of just 13,

10 14, or 15 units versus all. And I think it

11 probably makes sense that the scope include

12 all installed units, and I think part of it is

13 the benefit to the contractor in terms of

14 mitigation if there is a violation found so

15 that they can compare all installations versus

16 the non-compliant ones. So there's no need

17 for Doug to research that. 

18 MR. EISNER: Is everybody else okay

19 with that? Okay. All right. That brings us

20 up to slide 15.

21 MR. RAWALD: And I'll caveat that

22 both 15 and 16 have the same indoor unit issue
Page 173

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that I'll bring back to the Department to

2 discuss further. 

3 MR. EISNER: So I think we should be

4 doing the same thing here then, seeing if

5 there's anything else in any of these that are

6 going to have to go back. 

7 MR. RAWALD: And this is the point

8 where Jon Melchi can talk about

9 over-the-counter cash sales. 

10 MR. MELCHI: Doug, though, just to

11 clarify, I'm operating under the assumption

12 that kind of the records you'll be asking

13 distributors to keep will mimic what the

14 contractors will be required to keep. So when

15 you get that answer, it will impact -- okay. 

16 MR. EISNER: Okay. On distributors,

17 anything else? 

18 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon Melchi with

19 HARDI. We talked a little bit about this

20 morning in regards to over-the-counter cash

21 sales. These requests are going to be very

22 difficult for our members to comply with,
Page 174

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 knowing that the standard kicks in January 1,

2 2015. 

3 Typically, the way it works would be

4 -- I'll use Chuck because I'm looking at him

5 -- Chuck would come in. Chuck maybe is Brand

6 X, deals typically with Brand X, but he's got

7 a customer, his mother-in-law wants Brand Y,

8 and he comes and comes to my store and buys

9 that. Chuck is not going to come back to my

10 store because he doesn't typically deal with

11 us, so no need to open an account for Chuck. 

12 He'll make the purchase, give him a packing

13 slip. He'll roll his truck around back where

14 we'll load what's on the slip to him.

15 What we're talking about doing is a

16 pretty big deviation from that process. 

17 Talking with my members yesterday, to create

18 an account is typically 15 to 30 minutes time,

19 depending on your system and how that works. 

20 One of my members said, typically, that's

21 going to happen at the least opportune time:

22 the phone is ringing off the hook, you've got
Page 175

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 customers who need assistance in the store. 

2 So it's going to be a big burden. 

3 That said, you know, we recognize

4 that we need to try to capture these, but

5 we're going to need some assistance, I guess,

6 and the first thing would be getting some

7 implementation time to make this happen. 

8 There's approximately, an approximation,

9 10,000 branches in the United States that sell

10 equipment. And to get all of those branches

11 informed and to have them up to speed is going

12 to take a lot of time. 

13 I don't know that -- you know, we'll

14 certainly have our members, but there are a

15 lot of people who sell equipment who are not

16 HARDI members or affiliated loosely with other

17 groups. So it's going to take a very, very

18 big chunk of time to make sure that this

19 happens.

20 Now, we want to try to comply

21 because we understand that this is a gap here. 

22 But to John's point earlier, to our knowledge,
Page 176

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 no other retail outlet or store in the United

2 States has tracked any of this information on

3 a cash sale. I understand Harvey's point. I

4 wish we had the revenues of the pharmaceutical

5 industry. It would be a heck of a lot easier

6 if we were CVS to implement something like

7 this. But we don't, but they were also, but

8 they were also given a substantial amount of

9 time to comply with this; and, to my

10 knowledge, from the time that I think that

11 legislation was passed in '06 regarding

12 pharmaceuticals.

13 So I think that this is something

14 that, you know, I want to say that we're

15 certainly willing to try. But we need to work

16 on some sort of, I don't want to say grace

17 period, but that's the term we're using for

18 this sale of stranded inventory. And the

19 question of serial numbers is problematic on

20 a lot of sales simply because nobody is

21 tracking that on those over-the-counter sales. 

22 It would almost require you to go back into
Page 177

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the store and then provide a serial number,

2 which we're not going to have. 

3 You know, I think on a lot of the

4 transactions we're going to have that

5 information, what I like to call invoiced

6 transactions. But on the cash sales, it just

7 simply doesn't apply. And I don't want to

8 necessarily commit to something when I don't

9 think that our members are going to be able to

10 comply easily. You know, it will already be

11 a change of practice on those that utilize

12 cash sales to get this account information to

13 them have to have somebody come back into the

14 store and get a serial number. It's going to

15 be really problematic, I think. 

16 MR. RAWALD: So, Jon, this is Doug,

17 if I could just kind of parse out a couple of

18 things. So do you, would you need a separate

19 amount of phase-in time for the serial number

20 tracking versus just the tracking of

21 over-the-counter sales period or one phase-in

22 time for both? 
Page 178

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. MELCHI: I'll borrow a phrase

2 from Chuck. I think it depends. I don't

3 believe that all distributors track via serial

4 number now. I think most do on their invoice

5 sales. That certainly is going to take time

6 to implement for those who don't. On the cash

7 sales, yes, that's a whole process change. 

8 MR. RAWALD: And can you give a

9 number on how long you need for the phase-in,

10 or do you have to think about that overnight

11 -- 

12 MR. MELCHI: If I could think about

13 it overnight, that would be great.

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I did have a

15 chance at lunch to talk about this issue, at

16 least with my immediate supervisor I work

17 with. And we're both of the mind that we'd

18 rather have a phased-in time than have an

19 insufficient record retention scheme. So

20 that's our preference, though I think we have

21 to talk to more people in the Department about

22 that. But that makes more sense to have a
Page 179

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 good scheme that works, even if takes a little

2 bit longer to get there, than have a bad

3 scheme because they want to get there now, or

4 one that we view insufficient I guess would be

5 the right term.

6 So that's kind of my druthers. But

7 I want to hear kind of what the time frame

8 would be. I mean, if it's going to be five

9 years, that's not going to work. So we need

10 to have some sort of thought on what would

11 work from you guys. 

12 MR. MELCHI: You know, a question I

13 had was, from a member was, you know, party to

14 whom the unit was sold, including company

15 number, individual's name, full address, and

16 phone number, there were some folks who

17 thought that that might be either difficult to

18 obtain all that information or that, by the

19 time you got around to an investigation, that

20 might not be helpful. But, you know, folks

21 seem to think that, they seemed agreeable to

22 try to make every effort to collect all of
Page 180

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that, you know. But, again, not knowing, you

2 know. Some of our customers aren't

3 necessarily willing to turn over their home

4 address information to us on a regular basis.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

6 Just to be clear, I don't want, I wouldn't

7 want individuals' home addresses as much as

8 company --

9 MR. MELCHI: No, no, but I think for

10 a lot of the folks who are buying over the

11 counter that it's one in the same.

12 MR. RAWALD: They operate out of

13 their homes?

14 MR. MELCHI: Yes, absolutely.

15 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

16 MR. MELCHI: And I don't know, if

17 that is the case, if that raises any flags or

18 anything that we have to do with personal

19 identification and that sort of thing. I'm

20 not clear on that. 

21 MR. ROCKY: Doug, this is Bryan. So

22 one of the questions that I had from a number
Page 181

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of my distribution partners was consistency in

2 this, especially if we have a phase-in, and

3 particularly for the guys working in multiple

4 regional areas. A concern was expressed that

5 if distributor A, with their 12 sites,

6 immediately implements a change in policy that

7 makes it more difficult, from the perception

8 of the contractor, that they're going to lose

9 business to distributor B who has not

10 implemented those same restraints at this

11 point. And so there was a lot of questions I

12 don't have answers to as far as how this would

13 be implemented, so a consistent approach

14 across the chain is definitely worthwhile. 

15 But one of the things that people were worried

16 about, especially the guys that are doing over

17 the counter.

18 And just to reiterate, in the five

19 major customers I talked to, I had all five

20 that had locations that they said, at peak

21 season in the summer, had more than, 75

22 percent of their transactions were cash-based. 
Page 182

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 This is not a one and two, it's not ten a day. 

2 In some locations, and I'm talking Phoenix,

3 Houston, Sacramento, Seattle, other places,

4 people use cash, especially at the peak

5 season. And a lot of it goes back to not that

6 the preference of the distribution partner or

7 even the contractor. I was reminded it was

8 based on credit lines that distribution

9 partners give to contractors was the

10 predominant reason people paid in cash. They

11 used up their credit line, and they weren't

12 being extended anymore, so they paid in cash. 

13 Number one thing that was reported back to me,

14 and I don't usually think about that sort of

15 stuff. 

16 MR. RAWALD: Bryan, this is Doug. So

17 I guess what I heard in the past, though, was

18 a differentiation between a cash sale with

19 someone that has an account and just clearly

20 don't have anymore credits, but you at least

21 know who they are. So they can say, "Yes, I'm

22 McCrudden Heating and Cooling. My credit is
Page 183

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 up, but here's $1500," as opposed to a guy who

2 walks in and says, "I've never been here

3 before. I'm paying cash, and I don't want to

4 be a recorded partner with you folks." 

5 So do you have a sense of that 75

6 percent how many were people without accounts

7 that are walking off the street and were not

8 established parties with that distributor? 

9 Because I think that's a difference. 

10 MR. ROCKY: Yes, I understand and I

11 agree. And I don't have a sense for that. I

12 can go back and ask some questions, but some

13 of the discussion is related to if you use up

14 your credit with distributor A, you go try to

15 get credit with distributor B until you use up

16 the credit line there, you know, and you

17 change your company name or whatever you have

18 to do because you're running a cash business. 

19 A lot of these guys, as Chuck and Charlie have

20 talked about, they're on a shoestring. 

21 They're not successful because they know how

22 to run a business. They're unsuccessful
Page 184

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 because they don't know their costs, and

2 they're just talking cash flow in and out, day

3 and day. 

4 It's a percentage. I'll try to get

5 some more information for you. 

6 MR. EISNER: Other comments? 

7 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David

8 Hungerford. Can you guys hear me? 

9 MR. EISNER: Yes. 

10 MR. HUNGERFORD: You know, I was

11 struggling with this latest conversation

12 because I was thinking about the idea of, I

13 know it's difficult for -- I understand the

14 difficulties of tracking the cash sales and

15 the reasons that people might do the cash

16 sales. I'm just having trouble comprehending

17 the idea of a contractor in Phoenix or

18 Sacramento dealing with signing somebody up or

19 collecting all this information with the

20 contractor so that he can buy a SEER 13 in a

21 city where those units aren't supposed to be

22 sold.
Page 185

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 And so I find it a little bit

2 theatrical in some way or absurd because are

3 you maintaining that the distributors and

4 retailers are going to be selling SEER 13

5 units? 

6 MR. RAWALD: And, Dave, this is

7 Doug. So just to be clear, we haven't said

8 that we were maintaining records only as sales

9 of 13 SEER, so that's -- 

10 MR. HUNGERFORD: I understand.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

12 MR. HUNGERFORD: I understand. And,

13 you know, I do appreciate the difficulty of

14 tracking all these sales as a way of finding

15 out whether an installer is putting in the

16 wrong unit. But I don't know. I just have an

17 issue with the idea that the retailer is going

18 to be, there's going to be 13 units on the

19 dock and they're going to be putting them in

20 a pickup truck so other people can put them in

21 in Phoenix and Sacramento. I'm trying to

22 figure out a way to prove that that's
Page 186

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 happening. 

2 MR. ROCKY: So this is Bryan. So,

3 David, I apologize if I used an example that

4 was causing you confusion. The fact is that

5 we have distribution partners in every part of

6 the country that have a large segment of their

7 customers that come in and pay cash for a

8 number of reasons. And our customers are

9 concerned, our distribution partners are

10 concerned on significant changes in their

11 policies and procedures that appear to be

12 needed immediately in an area that nobody else

13 in this country does at a retail level for

14 tracking cash transactions.

15 And so, yes, I'm not expecting, my

16 customers in Phoenix are not expecting to have

17 a lot of people come in over the counter and

18 pay cash and try to buy a 13 SEER condenser

19 after July 1, 2016 when the sell-through

20 period is done. Between now and then, if we

21 have it in inventory, it is legal for us to

22 sell it, and we will continue to sell that
Page 187

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 product to them. Manufactured product before

2 January 1, 2015. 

3 So that is going to be an issue that

4 our customers, our distribution partners, and

5 contractors are going to be dealing with for

6 18 months. Do I get a unit that was built in

7 '14 or a unit that was built in '15? Do I

8 have to pay cash? Do I have to pay credit? 

9 Do I have to be a customer? Do I have to be

10 registered? What kind of data do I have to

11 turn in? It all is the same issue. 

12 Whether or not a 13 SEER unit is

13 sold in Phoenix is a question or not, those

14 are going to be sold in Phoenix for up to 18

15 months from the time this law goes into

16 effect. That's the sell-through period. So

17 the processes have to be able to deal with the

18 distinction of units built in 2014 and those

19 built in 2015. 

20 MR. FENSTROM: So this is Gary. I

21 have a question about records kept by

22 distributors specifically with respect to cash
Page 188

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 sales. So I imagine that if I were to go in

2 to a distributorship as a qualified contractor

3 that they routinely sell for, I'd have the

4 option of charging something to my account or

5 doing a cash sale. And my question is are

6 there any products that distributor sales that

7 they don't sell through a cash sale? If it's

8 some small inconsequential part, I can

9 envision that being a cash sale. But I were

10 to buy a complete air conditioning system

11 consisting of maybe the furnace but, at a

12 minimum, the coil and the condensing unit,

13 could I buy anything out of the

14 distributorship on a cash basis? 

15 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon Melchi with

16 HARDI. Yes. 

17 MR. FENSTROM: All right. Well -- 

18 MR. MELCHI: It's legal tender of

19 the United States.

20 MR. WHITE: With one caveat there. 

21 You can't buy certain refrigerants without a

22 608 certification, but you could pay cash for
Page 189

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it, provided you had the certification.

2 MR. FENSTROM: Okay. Well, where I

3 was going with this question -- unfortunately,

4 I didn't get the one I was hoping for, the

5 answer I was hoping for that is. But where I

6 was going with the question is why couldn't

7 some small fraction of the products that are

8 carried that could normally be purchased

9 through a cash sale be invoiced? That is to

10 say, you know, it's not going to be a credit

11 sale going to my account, but an invoice would

12 be issued by the counter person for the sale

13 of that product and the invoice would contain

14 this information. The method of payment would

15 be cash, but there would be an invoice and a

16 record kept. 

17 I've had the experience of going to

18 many distributors to buy stuff where I've paid

19 cash, and they've always asked me my name and

20 given me an invoice. And there is a system,

21 usually, at distributors for creating and

22 keeping copies of invoices.
Page 190

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Anybody else? 

2 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug, and I

3 have a question I've been wondering about, as

4 I sit here, for Jon Melchi. So is it fair to

5 say that over-the-counter sales that are not

6 invoiced to people that pay cash and have no

7 account are typically ones that are going to

8 be used locally? I mean, those are people

9 that are not taking them and going some place

10 else, is it? Is that a fair assumption, or

11 that's not a fair assumption, or you just

12 don't know? 

13 MR. MELCHI: I wouldn't be able to

14 answer one way or the other. 

15 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David. I

16 can follow-up a little bit on Gary's comment

17 just now. The last time I ran into Standard

18 Appliance Parts in downtown Sacramento to pick

19 up two capacitors for my unit, they fully

20 tested the old ones for me and found they were

21 bad and that's why my unit wasn't turning on

22 properly. They invoiced me, name, address,
Page 191

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 phone number, and, I assume for internal

2 tracking purposes, recorded the model numbers

3 for those two pieces, and it was like 50 bucks

4 worth of stuff. But I don't know. It seems

5 like they could do that for a condenser unit,

6 but that's just an observation. 

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and what

8 I'm hearing from this conversation is that it

9 can be moved toward, it can be done. It's a

10 pain in the butt, and there are some folks

11 who'd rather not, but it can be done but that

12 getting the systems in place, because David

13 and Gary happened to walk into distributors

14 who had the systems in place and there are

15 others who don't, and that it's important to

16 have a simultaneous date for such systems to

17 be required so we don't disadvantage

18 distributor X relative to distributor Y. But

19 I'm not hearing anyone say we can't do what

20 amounts to invoicing and record-keeping on

21 cash sales if we're given at least until year

22 2020 to do it. So we're just arguing now
Page 192

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 about what the implementation date is. 

2 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 

3 And I think the question our members had was

4 on that question of is a serial number

5 necessary? Because while we're capturing that

6 information at the counter, the contact

7 information of the purchaser or the

8 contractor, we don't have that serial number,

9 and that, again, takes another added step that

10 we don't necessarily have. 

11 Now, on those invoiced orders of our

12 tried and true customers, most distributors

13 would have that information. So a good

14 percentage of those guys, we would have that

15 serial number information. Our preference

16 would be that it not be mandatory, that the

17 model number, manufacturer be sufficient

18 because we think that's going to assure an

19 easier compliance than what exists today. For

20 those that don't track by serial number, you

21 know, in addition to the internal processes,

22 you know, you may have to make a change to the
Page 193

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 RP system, which we don't know how long that

2 could take. 

3 MR. SACHS: I understand. I

4 personally feel that, given everything else

5 we've discussed over the last weeks,

6 particularly with respect to prohibited acts,

7 that that serial number information just might

8 be the ability to do the job versus not being

9 able to do the job for Doug now. I have no

10 problems envisioning Doug as a junkyard dog,

11 but he's still got to find the bone. 

12 So my instinct is, I guess,

13 following on Doug's in this case, that

14 implementation date is a lot more

15 instinctively, has a lot more flexibility than

16 what information is required. And if we're

17 already getting serial numbers from both

18 distributors for most products and somebody

19 has got to tell Joe which box to pull to make

20 sure he's got the right capacity, as well as

21 the right SEER and the right motor and

22 everything else, it's just hard for me to
Page 194

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 believe without other knowledge that that unit

2 is likely to have a unique serial number, too. 

3 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

4 Let me help you out here. I've been to a lot

5 of supply houses. I've loaded lots of

6 equipment in trucks, and here's how it works. 

7 I go in the front door, and I say hi and they

8 all say hi. I eat one of their doughnuts. I

9 sign the paper for the equipment I have, and

10 I drive to the backdoor where there's a stack

11 of air conditioners, a tall stack. And the

12 guy up at the counter doesn't know which one

13 out of that stack I'm going to pull. Now, he

14 might have access to the serial numbers that

15 he has sitting there in his data bank, but he

16 doesn't know which one is the one on top

17 they're going to take off. So he can't assign

18 me a serial number at the desk because I don't

19 know which one out of the pile of jack straws

20 I'm going to get.

21 So not everybody does this, so I'm

22 not -- the wholesalers that I work with,
Page 195

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 because I have an account, they say, okay,

2 here's the top one, and many of them have a

3 little sticker. They pull the sticker off,

4 and they put it on my receipt. And then they

5 put a sticker on their receipt, and it gets

6 entered in their system. But I have an

7 account, so it's there.

8 But I also have a wholesaler related

9 to a major manufacturer to be unnamed. 

10 They're on the far side of town from me. They

11 don't sell their equipment particularly a lot. 

12 They do occasionally. And I do need parts,

13 but I don't have an account there. So when I

14 go there, I take a check to get something, and

15 they say, okay, well, you know, okay, I get a

16 receipt that says cash. Well, I'd like a

17 receipt that has my company name on it. You

18 know what I have to do to do that? I get a

19 credit app, please fill out this credit

20 application. I don't want to fill out a

21 credit application, but the only way they will

22 open an account for me is to fill out a credit
Page 196

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 application, and I'm sure not sending one of

2 my drivers out there and expecting him to fill

3 out a credit application.

4 So I just want to clarify for you

5 that the day-to-day goings on are not as

6 automated as you think; and, certainly, they

7 could be. I've, more than once, been a little

8 annoyed at the supply house that you can't

9 seem to get my company name, Repairs,

10 Incorporated, on the top of my invoice. But

11 it's a fact of life, and I can't help it. 

12 So there's, there are some obstacles

13 that probably can be gotten around, but I

14 think it's not easy.

15 MR. SACHS: I appreciate that,

16 Chuck, every much, and I think I am setting up

17 a chance to go visit one of the distributors. 

18 I'm trying hard to arrange that. But as I

19 said before, being too clever by half, I'm not

20 terribly interested in the no account

21 contractors. I'm not real sure that a no

22 account guy in the other sense is the one
Page 197

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 who's paying attention to installation quality

2 and other business practices and can't get

3 credit. I'm hearing the distributors say we

4 can do this if it has value and if it's

5 needed, but we need time to do it. And along

6 the way, it looks like they will have a way to

7 bill those parts cash sale to Repairs,

8 Incorporated, and that's all to the benefit of

9 everybody. It's just a hard way to get there. 

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So my homework

11 here is to take back the question, the

12 phase-in, to my people, to more people. Jon

13 is going to go back and find out a time line

14 that would work for folks, and we'll come back

15 with that. And then I'll re-ask the question

16 on serial number, though. I have asked it a

17 couple of times and have been told it's of

18 some value to people, but I will ask it again,

19 though, with the information that we've gotten

20 here again today. 

21 MR. MELCHI: Thank you. 

22 MR. EISNER: That brings us to
Page 198

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 manufacturers. 

2 MR. RAWALD: Once again, same caveat

3 as the first two slides. You know, whatever

4 we decide as far as the indoor portion, the

5 same thing will be here. 

6 MR. EISNER: Anything people want to

7 raise in addition to that? 

8 MR. ROCKY: So this is Bryan. I'm

9 not going to speak for every manufacturer, but

10 this record retention request, we have no

11 problem with meeting these requirements, as

12 stated, as a company. 

13 MR. EISNER: Others? Everybody else

14 is okay with it? Assuming on these three

15 slides, essentially, that when we come back

16 tomorrow we hit the new information -- 

17 MR. MELCHI: Neil, this is Jon with

18 HARDI. Can I circle back? There was a

19 question that I forgot to ask and I wanted to

20 ask regarding the records retention for

21 distributors. We had talked about, with many

22 distributors operating at regional capacities,
Page 199

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 possibly the need to maintain records for

2 distributors nationally. Having heard the

3 contractors' point of view about installations

4 potentially in those regions, would DOE be

5 open to considering that only distributors who

6 sell or do business within multiple regions be

7 required to keep all of those records? 

8 The reason I ask is, you know, upon

9 calling a member in upstate New York small,

10 three branches, never going to have any issue. 

11 But these are the type of record-keeping

12 changes that is really going to change their,

13 would really change their processes. And the

14 questions they ask me are why, you know, we

15 don't do business with anybody -- it would

16 make no sense for anybody to go from Rochester

17 all the way down to the south. 

18 Would DOE be open to considering

19 that, if a distributor does business with

20 entities that operate in multiple region, that

21 they would be required to, or is this

22 something that DOE is locked into on a
Page 200

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 nationwide scale? 

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is

3 Doug. We're not locked in. The complexity

4 with the distributors is that we've heard

5 numerous times that you just don't know where

6 things end up, so there's that constraint. 

7 That's why I asked the over-the-counter

8 question because I thought there could be at

9 least some legs for me to go back to the

10 Department and say, hey, at least for those

11 guys doing over-the-counter sales in Portland,

12 Maine, those aren't going to end up in the

13 south. There's no delta there for a guy to

14 drive up from South Carolina to get a unit

15 from Portland, Maine and bring it back, so why

16 would he do that? 

17 So I could see that. I just need

18 some language that makes sense because what

19 we've heard, unfortunately, you don't really

20 know, and so how could I have to be able to

21 know he's saying, yes, definitely, I'm sure my

22 product went to the south. I mean, I'm not
Page 201

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 going to come to the distributor first, so I'm

2 going to go, more likely than not, to the

3 contractor first. And if there's no chain

4 going to the distributor, I'm never going to

5 knock on that distributor's door. So it's

6 almost, it's almost like they could play at

7 their own risk and say, well, I'm never going

8 to get questioned about it, so why should I

9 keep these records? But I don't want to

10 create regulations that do that.

11 So I guess how would I be able to

12 say something to make sense so they would know

13 I'm in the area where I don't have to keep

14 records? So I guess I need you to come up

15 with some language that would make sense,

16 knowing that you don't control where the

17 product goes. 

18 MR. MELCHI: Okay. I'll bring that

19 back tomorrow. Thank you. 

20 MR. EISNER: Anything else from the

21 manufacturers? As I said, these -- oh, I'm

22 sorry. 
Page 202

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. ROY: Aniruddh with Goodman. We 

2 agree with what Bryan said. And I guess, you

3 know, I saw a few nodding of the heads, as

4 well, so should we take a vote on the

5 manufacturer aspect? 

6 MR. RAWALD: I want to come back

7 with the indoor unit part and what we're going

8 to do there because I want it to be consistent

9 across the board. But I appreciate the fact

10 that there should be no bump in the road here

11 for that tomorrow, so we'll come back to the

12 other thing. 

13 MR. ROCKY: So, Doug, from that

14 standpoint of the manufacturer, we keep track

15 of every unit we sell. It's all in the same

16 database. It gets invoiced. We don't do cash

17 sales to our distribution partners, you know. 

18 So this is straightforward. 

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. I just want to

20 make sure we adopt the same language across

21 the board, so I appreciate it. Okay. Could

22 we jump to the next slide? 
Page 203

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Sure can. Next slide

2 is other issues, five-year record retention. 

3 Questions, concerns? 

4 MR. RAWALD: So over lunch I did

5 raise with my supervisor the idea of a

6 different time line for differing actors in

7 the chain, so we're going to talk more about

8 that. So I think there are some reasons for

9 that. But it would be the version, as we talk

10 with John Hurst, which would be the increasing

11 time would be as you go further back in time

12 in the chain. So five years being what would

13 be a manufacturer time and then I could see

14 possibly maybe I could bring back four years

15 for contractors and four and a half years for

16 distributors. I don't know if I could do

17 three, four, and five. I don't know if that

18 would be too far. But I'll go back with the

19 idea in mind again and talk more about -- 

20 MR. HURST: Doug, I think the other

21 consideration is the manufacturers have

22 systems capable of tracking these things,
Page 204

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 whereas small contractors will probably be

2 filing them in a file cabinets and paper. So

3 five years is a lot of paper versus three. 

4 MR. RAWALD: No, I do get that. So,

5 you know, it's just the concern on the flip

6 side of, well, after three years, is everybody

7 able to get away? Because the first stop is

8 going to be the contractor's records, and so

9 I want to be able to look back on it, when I

10 have a five-year statute of limitation, to the

11 most efficacious period of time I can. 

12 MR. HURST: Yes. And just for the

13 record, I'd also submit that the chance of a

14 contractor being caught, whether it be through

15 warranty, you know, a follow-up call on that

16 system is going to happen most likely within

17 the first 12 months of the installation. I

18 don't know if that's a consideration, but

19 that's usually when you find it. 

20 MR. WHITE: Doug, this is Chuck

21 White. I think three, four, five has a real

22 nice ring. It just rolls off the tongue. 
Page 205

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and

2 sometimes I'm contrarian but -- 

3 MR. RAWALD: Well, you want eight to

4 ten so . . . 

5 MR. SACHS: I've given up on eight

6 to ten, convinced that the tail of the

7 distribution is not going to happen. But I do

8 feel, again, from the thrust of what I've

9 heard today, that five, five, five is

10 feasible, except for the no account guy. And

11 we're not going to catch all of them because

12 they will have moved out of town to Arkansas. 

13 Oh, I'm sorry, Karen. But I still think that

14 storage lockers are a pain in the butt, but if

15 the fourth year and fifth year files are in a

16 storage locker in your basement, they get a

17 little moldy, they're still available. And I

18 don't think that for a legitimate contractor,

19 given the stakes here, that a five, five, five

20 is unreasonable. And I may not be helping

21 you, Charlie and Chuck, but I'm trying.

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with
Page 206

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ACCA. I mean, Harvey, I think that anything

2 is possible. You can install a condensing

3 furnace where a non-condensing was in a

4 townhouse with no walls that you can reach for

5 a price. 

6 So I think what we have to look at

7 is what's practical and what's reasonable and

8 is it reasonable to ask a contractor to stuff,

9 keep a lot of records and stuff them in

10 lockers? And is it effective, and is it going

11 to get what we want? 

12 I think there's a balance we have to

13 find, and I think we've struck on that which

14 is the sophistication level. The manufactures

15 I think have admitted that they have a level

16 of sophistication that a lot of contractors

17 don't. And then we get to the point where

18 what are we doing, what are we requiring of

19 what is, essentially, we assume to be the vast

20 majority of upstanding contractors just to get

21 at those who are going to be out there trying

22 to skirt the system. And I don't think that
Page 207

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 requiring these records for five years meets

2 that test, which is let's not burden the good

3 guys, let's not give them too much. It may be

4 possible, but I don't think it's practical. 

5 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Charlie. I hear

6 you. I haven't locked my sword into the stone

7 yet. 

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So as I said,

9 I'll bring that back and see what the

10 Department is feeling. Obviously, if the

11 group comes to a consensus and we don't agree,

12 that's always an option, you know, and we'll

13 go forward from there. 

14 MR. SACHS: Forty-eight, fifty-four,

15 and sixty months. 

16 MR. RAWALD: And I think that's why

17 it was four, four and a half, and five was an

18 option. The second bullet was so I took back

19 Chuck's thoughts about how people really don't

20 understand being readily available. So I

21 thought, okay, let's see if we can just make

22 this very clear in what we decide. And so
Page 208

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 when you have a record request, you have 30

2 days to respond. 

3 And then let's go even further and

4 not rely upon Doug being a good guy here. I

5 mean, let's write into the rules that DOE can

6 grant extra time for making good faith

7 production and explain the need for additional

8 time. So you give them what you got in 30

9 days, and then you say, "I need more time, and

10 here's why." And it's in writing, and so we

11 say, "Yes, we'll give you more time, Chuck. 

12 We know you've given us a lot here. Here's

13 another 45 days or 15 days, or whatever seems

14 reasonable. You tell us how much time you

15 need, and we'll come to an agreement."

16 So that's what I thought was the

17 best way to kind of reach that concern that

18 Chuck, I think, was articulating. I think it

19 was a very valid concern. So what do folks

20 feel about that, those two bullets?

21 MR. WHITE: Well, I'll start. This

22 is Chuck White. I like the language. I like
Page 209

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that you've put in there about the good faith. 

2 I think that's very helpful. The no new forms

3 and it doesn't have to be searchable, I think

4 that makes it a lot more doable for people. 

5 Again, on a personal note, I can

6 find the first invoice from 1976 for our

7 business, and I probably can do it less than

8 30 days because it's within the walls of the

9 building. But not everybody is like that. 

10 And, again, if you want to know just

11 air conditioners, I have the files of what I

12 bought. But it's going to be, it's going to

13 take me some time to go through, paw through

14 all those and pull out the ones that are

15 particular air conditioners. But, again,

16 within 30 days, I can get you quite a bit of

17 them. And if we do need a lot longer time

18 frame for me personally, I can do it and then

19 explain it to you, I think that's fair. 

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

21 ACCA. On these, and I guess on record

22 retention requirements, what do you imagine
Page 210

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the compliance date to be? I mean, is it

2 going to be January 1 because that's what's in

3 the statute, or, based on the fact that we

4 know we're not going to have a final rule -- 

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So the rule

6 will go out, and there will be a 30-day

7 compliance date for the rule in general. So

8 it all depends on when the rule goes final,

9 that will have a 30-day compliance date

10 associated with it, so I imagine that it won't

11 be final before January 1st. So I imagine

12 that would be, whatever date the final rule

13 is, which is something else to consider as Jon

14 Melchi is thinking about, the fact that we're

15 going to have this built-in time line anyway. 

16 MR. EISNER: Other questions,

17 concerns? 

18 MR. RAWALD: So absent the years, is

19 there otherwise general agreement to what's on

20 this slide? Just the time line is what needs

21 to be looked at for . . . 

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. On the
Page 211

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 last line of slide 18, complainant has history

2 of substantiated complaints, and I think

3 there's some ambiguity in the wording you

4 might want to think about. 

5 MR. RAWALD: So we're on slide 17.

6 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

7 MR. RAWALD: But we can jump into

8 slide 18, and that can be the first comment we

9 discuss. 

10 MR. MELCHI: Doug, this is Jon with

11 HARDI. On slide 17, no requirement to create

12 new forms, in a way, though, if a distributor

13 does have to alter their OEM or their ERP

14 system, that would, in effect, be creating a

15 new form for them. You know, modifications to

16 the database are, essentially, doing just

17 that. 

18 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie

20 with ACCA. I think I have a similar question,

21 but I think maybe you're trying to say no

22 requirement to create standardized form. 
Page 212

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: What I'm saying is that

2 you can use the things you're already doing

3 when your invoice sales and when you receive

4 invoices from things you purchased to keep the

5 records. So we're not requiring that there be

6 anything else created for the Department

7 alone. 

8 MR. EISNER: That doesn't prohibit

9 you from creating a form if you want. So,

10 again, it's okay then. I hear no objections,

11 that it's okay except for the number of years. 

12 All right. Go on to the next one, 18,

13 threshold for records requests. 

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. And we hit on

15 this a few slides back now. So DOE must have

16 a reasonable belief to request records, and

17 what that means is we have to have a

18 reasonable belief that the person we're going

19 to ask records from actually has a violation. 

20 So a reasonable belief is more than just

21 merely suspicion, but it's not anywhere near

22 proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It will be,
Page 213

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 hey, listen, I have good reason I think this

2 guy is doing something bad, and I want to look

3 at these following factors that we have listed

4 here, and these are going to be the things

5 that I'm going to consider when trying to

6 decide, okay, do I really have a reason to

7 believe this person is doing bad?

8 Now, the last one is the one that

9 Harvey jumped in on, "complainant has a

10 history of substantiated complaints." That's

11 an analogy to criminal law where if you have

12 an informant and they're a good informant

13 because they're always finding out bad guys,

14 then you're more likely to believe that

15 informant. So if Chuck has told me that five

16 other contractors in this area were installing

17 non-compliant units, and on the sixth time I'm

18 going to say, "Chuck has a really good track

19 record," that's going to contribute to the

20 belief that I have that what Chuck is telling

21 me now is probably right because Chuck has

22 been really good, Chuck has been very good at
Page 214

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 giving good complaints to the Department. So

2 we'll consider that.

3 But if Chuck has been the type of

4 guy who, every time he tells me about someone

5 they're always good, and Chuck is just really

6 rabble-rouser, he just wants to do whatever he

7 can to cause trouble, I'm going to be very

8 unlikely to believe Chuck's complaint. So

9 that's what that means, Harvey. 

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. When I

11 read it the first time, I read it as the

12 complainant is one of these revenge guys who

13 has a record of complaints against him having

14 been found. I'm just suggesting that this

15 ambiguation, as the term Wikipedia would use,

16 that it can be misread. 

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so we can

18 change the wording to -- right, yes. So I

19 don't mind changing that wording. That's the

20 intent of that bullet. 

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other

22 questions or concerns about 18? 
Page 215

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. SHEPHERD: I had a question. 

2 This is Amy Shepherd from AHRI. In addition

3 to the reasonable belief, I think that one

4 thing you're going to have to have is a

5 prohibited installation. So I think

6 particularly before there's a records request

7 for distributors or manufacturers, can we

8 include in there that DOE has to have proof of

9 a prohibited installation? Because that's

10 not, the actual physical installation is not

11 something you're going to get from either of

12 those parties. And I think that, since that's

13 the fundamental thing you're going to have to

14 prove before the rest of anything else can be

15 proved, I think it would be good if that had

16 to be met as a threshold. 

17 MR. RAWALD: Amy, this is Doug. I'm

18 envisioning a scenario possibly where multiple

19 people have come to us with bids from a

20 contractor showing that he's willing to

21 install something, a 13 SEER in their house,

22 but nothing has actually been installed. So
Page 216

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I want to go look at that guy's record now to

2 see if actually has installed any 13 SEERs

3 anywhere else because I have four or five of

4 these folks who have these bids from this guy

5 saying they're going to install a 13 SEER in

6 their house. So I wouldn't have a prohibited

7 installation at that point, but I think I'd

8 have reasonable belief that that guy did

9 install something because he's bid a lot of

10 jobs willing to do that. So I would have

11 reason to believe that and want to go ahead

12 and ask him for this records at that point. 

13 MS. SHEPHERD: So that's talking

14 about the contractor, though, right?

15 MR. RAWALD: Right, the contractor.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: So what about

17 distributors and manufacturers? What if that

18 was the trigger before records requests

19 happened for those other entities? Because

20 you wouldn't have to have that, right? 

21 MR. RAWALD: So I'm not sure I'm

22 following your question. So I guess what
Page 217

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you're asking is do we want to have a

2 threshold to ask for records from the

3 distributor and the manufacturer, and I would

4 say, yes, we'd want to meet the threshold. 

5 Would it be the same threshold? I would think

6 a reasonable belief that they -- once I had a

7 reasonable belief that something has happened,

8 then would I want to go ahead and follow the

9 contractor, the manufacturer? 

10 I'm not necessarily thinking the

11 manufacturer did anything wrong or the

12 distributor. I'm just asking for records to

13 verify what I'm hearing from the contractor. 

14 So do I want to establish a separate threshold

15 for that? I mean, is that what you're asking

16 for? What exactly would you -- 

17 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes, I think the

18 concern is that, since manufacturers are used

19 to keeping these records and since

20 manufacturers have the automated records and

21 since manufacturers have, looks like may have

22 the longest period of collecting these
Page 218

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 records, that they're the ones that are going

2 to be kind of hit up all the time for these,

3 as opposed to starting where the, starting

4 where the activity actually occurred. And so

5 it's just that, to make sure before the

6 manufacturers have to go back and pull

7 everything out of archives, that you know, not

8 that this particular person necessarily did it

9 but that you know that the prohibited

10 installation actually happened. 

11 MR. RAWALD: I guess part of the

12 scenario that I see, though, is I'd want to go

13 to the distributor or to the manufacturer on

14 occasion where the contractor gave me all his

15 records and everything seems right, and I'm

16 like, wait, but this doesn't seem to line up,

17 can I disprove that? Is there something in

18 the manufacturer's or distributor's records

19 that show that that contractor gave me records

20 that were doctored in some way? 

21 And I haven't thought through the

22 scenario entirely, but I don't want to
Page 219

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 handicap that without having thought through

2 it entirely. So let me think about it some

3 more. 

4 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary for the

5 California Utilities. We've already

6 established that trying to find violations in

7 the field is probably going to be difficult. 

8 And to require before we could look at

9 distributors' or manufacturers' records, that

10 we actually have a violation in the field

11 would pretty much restrict access to

12 proactively looking at those records with the

13 possibility of finding a violation at that

14 level. 

15 And if I recall, Dave Hungerford's

16 point earlier, again, calling for him to come

17 back on the line if he's there, I believe he

18 seems to feel that the effectiveness of

19 enforcement is probably going to be much

20 greater at the distributor and manufacturer

21 level then it will be at the installation

22 level because of the difficulty of finding
Page 220

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 violations at the installation level. So,

2 David, are you still on the phone, and would

3 you like to speak to your interest in focusing

4 on distributors, rather than individual

5 customers, and, consequently, the difficulty

6 of using individual customer violation as a

7 trigger for authority to look at the

8 distributor level? If he gave up and he's not

9 on the line, I think I expressed, well, I

10 think I expressed the view for both of us.

11 You know, certainly, I recognize the

12 reasonableness of the request. On the other

13 hand, I think it would unnecessarily restrict

14 DOE's or complicate DOE's ability to

15 investigate. 

16 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. I

17 understand that point, but I guess, looking at

18 it another way, at what point do you need to

19 actually determine a violation happened before

20 you just run off and get records from

21 absolutely all possible actors? I mean, I

22 feel like, at some point, we need to have an
Page 221

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 indicator that something actually happened,

2 right, or, I think to Doug's point, that there

3 was significant evidence to suggest that there

4 was intent to commit a violation. I think,

5 otherwise, you know, you run the risk of

6 investigating a lot of things and adding a lot

7 of burden without any proof. That's like

8 saying, you know, you see blood so you're

9 convinced there's a body somewhere, right? 

10 And you're running around looking, but there

11 isn't one, you know. 

12 MR. FENSTROM: Well, this is Gary. 

13 We talked earlier about trusting DOE's

14 reasonableness. And given the fact that they

15 have budget constraints and limitations on

16 their compliance ability, I don't think

17 they're going to unnecessarily run around and

18 request records that aren't needed. 

19 On the other hand, making it, again,

20 more difficult for them to get at them when

21 they do need them or have reason to suspect. 

22 I think that's an unnecessary burden. 
Page 222

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Yes, this is Doug. And

2 I've talked a lot about people coming into

3 this meeting to try to establish a threshold

4 because I really was worried about the

5 concerns that I heard from Chuck and Charlie

6 about the frivolous claims that would mess up

7 their business practice. And so this is the

8 area that people felt comfortable with and the

9 reasonable belief standard, and I think trying

10 to say that there needs to be something more

11 before we go to the distributors and the

12 manufacturers would be really difficult for

13 other people to palate because they don't want

14 to constrain themselves.

15 I'm having a problem because I don't

16 want to deal with unintended consequences

17 because I haven't seen these cases firsthand

18 yet to say what could be causing me to want to

19 go further. And so I don't want to be pinned

20 in if I don't have to be. So this reasonable

21 belief, to me at least, is I'm not going to

22 bother people until I really think something
Page 223

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 happened. And, frankly, we and my office,

2 we're not trying to get extra records to deal

3 with because we have to review them all, and

4 it's a lot of time and effort to look at these

5 things.

6 So we're not trying to subpoena

7 industry-wide. We're trying to be very

8 targeted in what we ask for. We're not

9 usually asking for things from the entire

10 period that we can. We're usually looking for

11 things from a very targeted time period, too,

12 because we want to look at things very

13 specifically.

14 So I think we're going to be very

15 judicious in what we ask for, but I understand

16 the concern. I will bring back the question,

17 as Amy has raised it, but I think there's not

18 going to be a whole lot of traction for me to

19 go from. I think that it's really going to

20 come back to we've come forward with this kind

21 of already constrained on our ability, which

22 is we're going to have a reasonable belief
Page 224

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 before we do anything and we're going to look

2 at all these factors. But I don't think

3 there's going to be one determinative factor

4 that we'll want to say, well, unless we have

5 this thing, we can't ask for any records from

6 manufacturers or distributors. 

7 MR. EISNER: Are we talking about,

8 if I understand this, one instance where you

9 then want to get information about other

10 possible instances? So, for example, you find

11 out that contractor A installed a 13 in the

12 south and that he bought that 13 from Y

13 distributor, but that's the only one he bought

14 he says. Do you have the right to go to Y

15 distributor and say did you sell any other 13s

16 to this contractor? You don't have any

17 indication he installed any others illegally,

18 but you know he installed one. He said he

19 only got that one from that distributor. You

20 want to find out if he got 13 more or 14 more.

21 MR. RAWALD: Well, if I understand

22 the question correctly, that would be okay
Page 225

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 because he already had one instance to go on.

2 So what she's saying is that we want to be

3 able to have that one installation that's been

4 found before we go to these folks who are

5 upper in the chain, if I understand her

6 question correctly. 

7 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes. I mean, we'd

8 like a signed confession, but we realize that

9 might not be unreasonable. But I think so, in

10 thinking about this issue, I mean, yes. But

11 at the same time, too, this list, as it's sort

12 of drafted right now, is one of these things,

13 right? So a picture of a unit with a name

14 plate. So is that reasonable? Well, if

15 you're literally looking at this list, that's

16 a factor up there, and so yes. But it's not

17 connected to an address or anything like that.

18 So anything I think that gets to the

19 just a little bit more of the scope because,

20 Gary, as to your point, you're going to have

21 to do this, you're going to have to be able to

22 show this eventually, right? Because you
Page 226

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 can't hold a manufacturer reliable unless

2 there was a violation. So you have to get

3 here.

4 And so I'm not necessarily saying

5 you can't go anywhere until you're already

6 there, but I do think that because of sort of

7 the fact that, you know, there is going to be

8 a desire to look upstream and to collect these

9 records in order to find other information. 

10 I just think that if either we have this as a

11 predicate or if we can work with this list a

12 little bit to just give more comfort that

13 there will be enough of this or it will be

14 sufficient that you're very certain that a

15 violation has occurred before you go asking

16 for the specific questions. 

17 MR. EISNER: But one violation,

18 you're saying, would be enough to get records

19 about other possible violations elsewhere by

20 the same, for example, the same contractor? 

21 MS. SHEPHERD: I don't know. That's

22 actually not the issue that I was raising. I
Page 227

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 have to think about that because I think

2 that's getting more into investigating

3 routine. What I'm talking about is just this

4 reasonable belief to request records. 

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So I'm open to

6 working on this list. This is just what we

7 put together based upon the things we talked

8 about last week for the threshold for

9 investigating at all. So I'm open for ideas

10 on this. 

11 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary again. 

12 Rather than, primarily, a proactive approach,

13 we've agreed on, primarily, a reactive

14 approach with the notion that, where we find

15 a violation, that it can be investigated. 

16 However, we left the door open to DOE doing

17 some stuff proactively.

18 So the records don't need to be

19 reported because that would be too much of a

20 burden, and we'd like to have them reside at

21 the manufacturer's place of business, the

22 distributor's place of business. If DOE
Page 228

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 doesn't have the authority without having

2 found an installation violation to go look at

3 the distributor's records, there's no

4 possibility of any kind of audit that might

5 discover something at the distributor level

6 that could then, in turn, reflect back on the

7 installation or inform us about the

8 installations.

9 So I don't want to agree to

10 something that is going to preclude a direct

11 inspection at the distributor or manufacturer

12 level of those records we all agreed could

13 reside there.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie

15 with ACCA. There's no reason to go to a

16 distributor or a manufacturer to ask for

17 records unless you've got some type of

18 violation, unless there's a box in the wrong

19 place, because the only violation that the

20 distributor or the manufacturer can commit is

21 a couple of slides away but, essentially,

22 knowing when you sell a product with knowledge
Page 229

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to sell or install. So something has to

2 happen first. 

3 MR. FENSTROM: I follow your

4 reasoning, but I'm also thinking about the

5 point that David Hungerford made, and that is,

6 rather than search for a needle in a haystack

7 among a gazillion California homes for a

8 violation, I think he wants to be able to go

9 to the distributor and see whether or not

10 there's a whole lot of equipment there that

11 maybe shouldn't be there.

12 MR. MCCRUDDEN: There's no -- 

13 MR. FENSTROM: Let me finish. And

14 if there is, then there might be a suspicion

15 that some of that was sold to contractors in

16 the wrong places. 

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And, again, to

18 repeat, it's not illegal to have the product

19 in a warehouse. 

20 MR. FENSTROM: That is absolutely

21 correct, but, illegal or not, it might be an

22 indication, if there's an excessive amount of
Page 230

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 product in the warehouse, that maybe some of

2 it is being sold. It's not illegal, but it

3 depends upon where it's being sold. And if

4 there's a whole bunch of it, that might be

5 cause to ask where is it being sold. And you

6 all are proposing an approach here that will

7 not allow that question to be asked. 

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug,

9 to interject. So from an investigative point

10 of view, what I see Gary looking at is I find

11 a report or I hear that a distributor who's

12 located in Southern Texas has a lot of 13,

13 which could be fine because it could be going

14 to Mexico, it could be fine because it's a hub

15 and they're going to be going out in the

16 spokes and all be in the north somehow. But

17 it just seems unusual because that's not the

18 regular thing.

19 Gary, and I agree, thinks that I

20 should be able to go to that distributor and

21 say can you give me the records for where

22 you're selling those 13s, who you're selling
Page 231

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 them to you, and that way I can look at the

2 contractors and say, oh, are these contractors

3 who are operating in Texas? Are they

4 contractors who are operating in Arkansas? 

5 Are they contractors who are operating in

6 Nebraska? And that may help me then build a

7 case.

8 And so I think I don't want to have

9 a constraint stop me from being able to do

10 that if I have a reasonable belief that, hey,

11 there's a lot of these things here

12 corresponding with some other information that

13 makes me think that this could be the bad

14 thing. So he wants to be able to have that

15 ability as long as I feel it meets a

16 sufficient threshold to do that, and I would

17 want that, as well. 

18 MR. ROCKY: And, Doug, this is

19 Bryan. I absolutely agree that you should

20 have the ability to do that January 1, 2017

21 because if you go on June 30th, 2016, that

22 pile of units could be totally legal, could be
Page 232

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 sold, could be installed, as long as it's not

2 installed July 1. And if you go to that same

3 distributor on January 1 of 2016, you might

4 see an amazing pile. You can go to

5 distributors right now, some of our customers

6 in different locations have an amazing stock

7 of inventory that's two and three years old. 

8 And I wish they didn't, but they do. 

9 So we're talking about taking

10 something that's still a legal act at this

11 point, Gary, and making it an assumed illegal

12 act just because the process of having it. 

13 MR. RAWALD: No, I don't think we're

14 going to that far because it's simply an

15 indication, right? So I could go back and

16 call up the distributor and say we heard a

17 note that you have a large stock of 13, and

18 the distributor can come back and say here's

19 the records showing those were all prior to

20 2015. Okay, thanks, that's it, the

21 investigation is over. I now have the

22 question answered. But I want to be able to
Page 233

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ask that question of the distributor.

2 MR. EISNER: I'm a little confused

3 as to why this is -- I'm not even sure you

4 have to focus on the distributor. Suppose a

5 very reliable source, somebody who works for

6 the distributor, says that contractor X who

7 advertises that he only installs them in

8 Alabama so he can pay attention to his

9 customers just bought a SEER 13 when it was

10 illegal to install it anywhere in that area. 

11 You go and see the contractor. The contractor

12 says, no, I don't have any 13s, I don't intend

13 to install any 13s down here. 

14 So Doug says, okay, let me go ask

15 the distributor for the records and see if he

16 did, in fact, get one or ten or fifteen even. 

17 What is wrong with that? I'm not following

18 why you shouldn't be able to ask the

19 distributor. You don't think the distributor

20 did anything wrong. You just want to find out

21 if the contractor did, indeed, get a 13 that

22 he denies he ever got when you've got a very
Page 234

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 good source, no idea where it would have been

2 installed, but a very good source that said we

3 sold it to that distributor and I know he only

4 does business in Alabama. I mean that

5 contractor.

6 What is wrong with giving Doug the

7 authority to ask the distributor did you sell

8 to this company, and did you sell them 13s?

9 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

10 Rheem. Is it wrong for a contractor in

11 Alabama to be in possession of a 13 SEER unit?

12 MR. EISNER: Again, my question

13 would be if I'm in business and I'm buying a

14 13, it can't be legally installed in the only

15 state in which I work, and I asked you if you

16 bought a 13 and you said no --

17 MS. MEYERS: I thought on day one we

18 defined a violation as an illegal

19 installation.

20 MR. BALLO: But a violation for a

21 distributor is to knowingly sell a product to

22 a contractor either with knowledge that the
Page 235

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 entity will sell or install the product in

2 violation. So -- 

3 MS. MEYERS: I see what you're

4 saying. 

5 MR. RAWALD: And I guess, Karen, the

6 investigation would be over, right? Because

7 after I found out from the distributor that

8 the contractor is lying to me, then I would go

9 back to where the guy works and try to figure

10 out, well, where the heck are these being

11 installed, you know? So it's not -- right. 

12 MR. FENSTROM: So this is Gary. 

13 Just to kind of reiterate the point, I think

14 it's prudent for us to be able to go from the

15 bottom-up or the top-down and not just one

16 direction. 

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'd

18 like to sort of draw this together, if I can,

19 with a question to Bryan and, by extension, to

20 the other manufacturers. January 1st of next

21 year and, for that matter, July 1st of 2016,

22 you all will continue to make the same models
Page 236

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 as you're making today in some cases. But the

2 point is you don't -- the question from Dave

3 Hungerford is you're not changing all the

4 model numbers to indicate that we have gotten

5 into a new enforcement regime. 

6 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. Since

7 the question was specifically directed to me,

8 Johnson Controls will continue to manufacture

9 units today that are 13 SEER rated in 2016

10 that will be 13 SEER rated for sale in

11 northern states. 

12 MR. SACHS: I appreciate it, and I'm

13 sorry I'm not being clear. I've got a SEER 14

14 model, let's say. And when the calendar rolls

15 over, we enter a new -- let's say with a 13

16 that will remain completely legal. You're not

17 changing model numbers for any distributors to

18 indicate that this is a change in the

19 regulatory regime. You're continuing to make

20 them under the same model number.

21 MR. ROCKY: So I think, in general,

22 there will be model families that every
Page 237

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 manufacturer does that are the same models. 

2 MR. SACHS: Okay.

3 MR. ROCKY: I think there will be

4 model numbers from us and other manufacturers

5 that will be new and unique for different

6 regions, and we're going to try to keep any of

7 those changes to the minimum because it

8 disrupts our entire distribution chain to

9 constantly change model numbers. 

10 MR. SACHS: Okay. That's very

11 helpful. 

12 MS. MEYERS: And plus because the

13 DOE testing and compliance -- 

14 MR. SACHS: Right. That's what I

15 thought, Karen. And thank you. Now, the

16 reason David was concerned about that is that

17 it would seem to indicate that, in terms of

18 the kinds of records that Doug will see, the

19 only thing indicating date of manufacture that

20 Doug would see is the serial number on the

21 unit, which would seem to support strongly the

22 need for the distributor to be able to
Page 238

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 maintain the record of that serial number. I

2 swiped one of those, Bryan. 

3 MR. ROCKY: Another one? 

4 MR. SACHS: No, no, no, one is

5 enough. I have trouble with paper records. 

6 MR. ROCKY: I'm sorry. This is

7 Bryan. I just showed Harvey a copy of the

8 rating plate that we agreed to add text saying 

9 "install prohibited in southwest and

10 southeast," so there's more than just a serial

11 number that identifies a product.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. You're

13 absolutely right. But I'm trying to think

14 like Doug, and he's got some sort of report

15 from the field that might have a photograph of

16 your plate, and that's cool. But if he

17 doesn't, he's relying on being able to bird

18 dog through various forms of records, and the

19 serial number could be an important aspect of

20 that compliance check. 

21 MS. MEYERS: I think, at least

22 speaking from OEMs, we don't want to get
Page 239

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 inundated with requests for records just

2 because something appears on the DOE website,

3 you know, if DOE has not determined that

4 there's been a violation. So we don't want to

5 get hundreds of requests, hey, who did you

6 sell this model number and serial number to;

7 hey, who'd you do this? 

8 So I think we want some type of

9 understanding. I like, actually, the way you

10 have this worded that you must have a

11 reasonable belief to request records. I just

12 want to understand, I think, what you mean by

13 reasonable belief. If it's just somebody is

14 keying something in on a model number, I'm

15 going to go in and key in Jon's model numbers

16 and serial numbers all day long so that you're

17 bugging him to death.

18 You know, that's, I think, you know,

19 at least from an OEM standpoint or at least

20 from Rheem's standpoint, I just want to

21 understand what that is, so I'm not like, oh,

22 somebody just put this in on the website, tell
Page 240

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 me who you sold it to you, you know. So I

2 think that's kind of where we're coming from. 

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so for the

4 manufacturer point of view, you at least have

5 some sort of frame of reference because of the

6 fact that we use a standard for when we make

7 you give us product now that we're testing

8 something. And so the analogy for right now

9 is if we test one unit and it comes back to be

10 less than the standard, that doesn't mean the

11 entire model line meets the standard. That

12 could be a one-off for a lot of reasons. 

13 But we have a reasonable belief that

14 that could be a problem with that product

15 line, so then we go back to the manufacturer

16 and say, okay, now you got to give us three

17 more units at your expense. So that's

18 probably more expensive than any record

19 request you're going to do, but that's kind of

20 the baseline. You know, we have a pretty

21 strong indication that something happened

22 here, so what we're going to be looking for is
Page 241

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we have these kind of -- I'm giving you ideas

2 to kind of help you understand what I'll be

3 looking for, but, you know, a soup of things

4 together would make me think there's a pretty

5 good likelihood something bad happened here,

6 and that's what I'm trying to get at. 

7 MR. EISNER: So it's more than just

8 the complaint. 

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. It's not just

10 the complaint. 

11 MS. MEYERS: I actually am okay with

12 this because I think you're trying to define

13 what you believe is reasonable belief and how

14 you would determine if reasonable belief, that

15 you have reasonable belief, which is a copy of

16 the Energy Guide label, a copy of the work

17 order, bill of sale for the equipment, a copy

18 of the bid for installation, before you would, 

19 that's your threshold to request records,

20 correct? 

21 MR. RAWALD: Correct. Right. So

22 I'm not saying one of those is enough. I'm
Page 242

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 not saying all those are required. What I'm

2 saying is I will look at these factors and say

3 what do we have here. And if we don't have

4 enough for me to get there, then I'm going to

5 ask for more. These are the kind of things

6 that could help me get there, but I'm not

7 going to require all of these but I'm not

8 going to require -- one is probably not

9 enough. I'm going to want to have a certain

10 amount of things that make me feel confident

11 that there's a reason to bother the person

12 with a record request because we're not in the

13 business of trying to request records

14 frivolously, and we're not trying to interrupt

15 business practices. We want to make sure we

16 have reason to believe something happened, and

17 then, when we do, we're going to act upon it.

18 But I can't say what combination of

19 things are going to be sufficient because

20 every case is different. And so these are

21 things that we'll look at in general to kind

22 of decide, okay, is there enough here to go
Page 243

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ahead and bother the company with a records

2 request now? 

3 MR. MELCHI: Doug, this is Jon with

4 HARDI. Doug, so just to be clear so when I

5 run this back to my members, if you get a

6 report on Karen's contracting company,

7 because, Karen, we haven't picked on you as a

8 contractor yet, and you say, "Karen, you're

9 installing 13 SEER in Alabama, and you

10 shouldn't be doing that," kind of Neil's

11 scenario. And she says, "No, I didn't," and

12 she gives you records that indicates that she

13 hasn't. But your source says I know she did

14 for a fact, but she has no records that

15 indicate that.

16 Is that one time, is the records

17 that she provides you enough to -- do you need

18 to go steps further after that? She's

19 provided you the records. There's nothing in

20 the records that says she's done anything. 

21 Whoever the source was, her competitor, Dave,

22 says, "Yes, she did, I know she did," is that
Page 244

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 enough that he is adamant that she did, even

2 though she provides her records for you to

3 come to me as her distributor and request

4 Karen's records? 

5 MR. RAWALD: I'd probably want more. 

6 I mean, I don't think that's enough. Like, if

7 it's just Dave talking, it's not enough. But

8 if Dave comes back and says, "Here's Mrs.

9 Smith who she remembers Karen coming to her

10 house and putting this unit it," then I would

11 say, okay, we now have a house, at least I

12 have a homeowner. I have something a little

13 bit more, and that gives you that thing that

14 Amy wants, which is unlawful installation. 

15 But that's an easy example, but I want a

16 little bit more. That's not enough. Just

17 Dave's word versus Karen's records, Karen's

18 records are probably going to win because

19 Karen's records seem, at least, more credible

20 than Dave's statement.

21 Now, if Dave already gave me seven

22 other people that have been right, and so Dave
Page 245

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 has got a really good track record. He's not

2 just somebody who I don't know. Then maybe

3 Dave's word means more. So I have to think

4 about it in the context because there's a lot

5 of factors that you think about in trying to

6 arrive at this. It's not just an easy

7 blueprint where you say, okay, let's look at

8 the checklist and do we have these five items?

9 But I think I'm going to want more probably to

10 get there. 

11 MR. EISNER: So where do we stand?

12 Do people still object to reasonable belief? 

13 Anybody still object to it? Doug has

14 convinced you it's reasonable? 

15 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary. Just

16 thinking about the discussion, it seems like

17 everyone in the industry, reasonably, is

18 saying I want to have some confidence that DOE

19 is not going to unnecessarily come out here

20 and disrupt the applecart. That makes sense. 

21 And the efficiency advocates are saying, by

22 golly, we want to make sure that DOE
Page 246

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 preemptively goes out and does some

2 inspection. So I think, in the end, we just

3 have to trust that DOE is going to do what's

4 reasonable and not try and implement

5 restrictions that would limit DOE and its

6 ability to exercise its reasonableness. 

7 MS. SHEPHERD: I think we can move

8 on. I think that I would like Doug to think

9 about what we had discussed thinking about. 

10 And I think that we'll do that, as well. And

11 I think that, you know, it's not that we think

12 DOE is going to just be bugging us all the

13 time. It's that, especially when you're going

14 five years back, it's a significant burden to

15 do it, to archive those, to respond to all

16 these requests. 

17 So we just want, I mean, honestly,

18 something solid. And so it's the one thing

19 that DOE can rely on is reasonable belief is

20 that the person telling us has been successful

21 before, I don't know how much comfort that

22 gives us. I think that's something that we
Page 247

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 need to talk about.

2 So I would just say I think we can

3 move on. We'll discuss it, and, if we decide

4 that we're not completely comfortable, we'll

5 raise this issue. 

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I just want to

7 be clear that, in my assessment, a history of

8 past positive complaints would not be

9 sufficient alone without additional evidence. 

10 I want more. But that's a factor I'm going to

11 consider. And also a history of bad

12 complaints is going to require a lot more, so

13 it's kind of a sliding scale to come to this

14 idea of what's reasonable. 

15 MS. SHEPHERD: I agree, and I think

16 everybody on this table will be comfortable if

17 you, like, were indentured to the Department

18 of Energy to work on these issues. But,

19 unfortunately, you're not so . . . 

20 MR. EISNER: Okay. We will come

21 back to 18 tomorrow. Let's go on to 20,

22 violation. 
Page 248

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: And these are all the

2 things that we've hashed over before. 

3 Hopefully, everyone is familiar with them at

4 this point. 

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

6 ACCA. On the contractor dealer part, do you

7 want to take out residential, the word

8 "residential?"

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. Just to be

10 consistent, that would make sense to take out

11 the word "residential" there. And also save

12 topic two, as opposed to covered by, just to

13 be consistent with the other things. 

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anybody have any

15 other questions or concerns about violations

16 or distributors and contract dealers? 

17 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 

18 The only concern that my members brought to my

19 attention was in the first bullet, knowingly

20 sell a product to a contractor or a dealer

21 with knowledge that that entity will sell

22 and/or install the product in violation. Just
Page 249

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the will sell part kind of raised a few

2 eyebrows. I guess some clarity on that from

3 DOE what you're specifically envisioning

4 there. 

5 MR. RAWALD: So it goes back to the

6 definition of contractor, right? So it's the

7 folks who sell it to an individual user, and

8 I think who we're really trying to capture are

9 the people who, like an internet sales person

10 who will sell it to an individual, and we want

11 there to be a violation. So if a distributor

12 knows they're selling it to an internet guy

13 who is then going to be selling it immediately

14 to a homeowner in Florida to install in their

15 house themselves, that would be a bad thing. 

16 So that's what that means. 

17 MR. MELCHI: But for clarity's sake,

18 if I'm -- for the record, our members hate

19 internet sales so -- 

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. I know.

21 MR. MELCHI: Detest them. But if

22 I'm selling to a contractor in upstate New
Page 250

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 York who then decides he's going to be this

2 big internet broker, but I know he's done some

3 stuff online but, you know, just in the New

4 York metro region or something like that, I

5 wouldn't be on the hook for his forays into

6 Southern Florida.

7 MR. RAWALD: If you don't know, you

8 don't know.

9 MR. MELCHI: Okay, that's fine. 

10 Thank you. 

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and if

12 that distributor has agreed to do drop

13 shipment directly to Florida from that

14 distributor in the upper Hudson Valley, we

15 might look askance. 

16 MR. EISNER: Any other problems or

17 issues with violation? Is this one we're

18 going to be able to vote on? Does anybody

19 have an objection to the language in slide 20? 

20 Okay. So we can show this one as unanimous? 

21 End the night on a good note, at least. All

22 right. 
Page 251

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 All right. Slide 21, product

2 installed in violation. 

3 MR. RAWALD: So this is where I

4 wanted to make clear the system issue that we

5 discussed before. So this last bullet is the

6 one we talked about a lot, which is the

7 outdoor unit had a certified combination less

8 than 14. So that's the 14 SEER guidance, that

9 last bullet.

10 The first bullet is saying, hey,

11 contractor, if you're going to install a

12 system, it has to be a certified system. You

13 can't mix and match. You can't decide, well,

14 I've got a Lennox model out there on my truck,

15 but I only have my Train in inventory, and I'm

16 just going to match them up, even though I

17 don't have actually a certified pair because

18 the system needs to be a 14. So we need to

19 make sure that when you're installing a system

20 that it's actually one that's certified to be

21 a system.

22 So this applies to system. This
Page 252

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 doesn't apply to placement of individual

2 parts, outdoor/indoor. But when you're

3 installing a system, it has to be one that's

4 certified to the Department as being a

5 compliant system, so the indoor and the

6 outdoor have to be certified together. 

7 So the top of the slide is what's

8 confusing, right? So we're saying what would

9 be a violation? So it's written in the

10 negative, which makes it complicated, so we

11 could change it back to being a compliant

12 installation would be, and then it would be

13 less confusing. No, that's okay. It tripped

14 me up when I first drafted it.

15 So a product installed in violation

16 would be one that's not a complete system. 

17 That's certified as meeting the standard. 

18 Now, I also wanted to make clear

19 because what could happen downstream is a

20 manufacturer may discontinue their system and

21 it's still out there in Jon's warehouse and he

22 could still sell it, and so Chuck could pick
Page 253

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it up and install it. So as long as it was

2 previously certified, that's okay, unless it

3 was discontinued because Dave tested it and

4 realized, oh, my gosh, this actually isn't a

5 14. Then it shouldn't be installed in the

6 south, so Dave should be making sure that Jon

7 knows not to sell it to Chuck anymore. So

8 that's the one caveat. 

9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie

10 with ACCA. On that situation you just

11 described, is the manufacturer supposed to

12 pull that or take action to get that property

13 out of the marketplace or out of the stream? 

14 How does that work? 

15 MR. RAWALD: So this is an issue of

16 first impression because we've never had this

17 problem before. So what we now require is

18 ceasing of distribution but not pulling back

19 because that's not a requirement. But it

20 seems like where it's stopping is the

21 installation, so somebody has got to make sure

22 those things aren't installed or they're
Page 254

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 redirected towards the north. So I don't know

2 how folks want to handle that. 

3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

4 ACCA. So it seems as though the contractor is

5 going to have to know that this system is no

6 longer compliant, and that seems difficult

7 unless there's some -- I don't know how

8 they're supposed to figure this out. 

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, once

10 again, the contractor is only held responsible

11 for knowingly installing what they knew

12 shouldn't be there, right? So the

13 manufacturers have to, I think, figure out how

14 they want to handle this situation because I

15 think it's really on the manufacturer at this

16 point. 

17 MR. SACHS: The no longer compliant

18 or re-rated systems are certainly on the AHRI

19 website. I would not now expect them to be on

20 your website as prohibited in the southeast

21 and southwest. So then the question is trade

22 press would, ACHR news published that somebody 
Page 255

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 who is not here's unit had been delisted and

2 would not be allowed in the south anymore,

3 would that publication be considered as an

4 indicator by you that people should have

5 known? That's the trade rag that hits

6 everybody. 

7 MR. RAWALD: I haven't thought

8 through the problem, so I don't know. I mean,

9 it seems like a logical outcome, but I don't

10 know how difficult that would be on folks. 

11 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon Melchi with

12 HARDI. A question for my manufacturer friends

13 here. So from my distributor that can only

14 buy 14 SEER products and they have a warehouse

15 full of that, how will that process work if a

16 product is rated as not achieving 14? Because

17 this is going to be a question that's going to

18 come back as far as how do they, what do they

19 do with their warehouse full of inventory that

20 they can't sell in their market? 

21 MR. WHITE: Chuck White. Well, what

22 do you do now? If something comes up as 12.8
Page 256

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 instead of 13, what do you do now? 

2 MR. LATTANZI: You're talking about

3 our current verification program with AHRI,

4 and there's processes and procedures available

5 today. If a unit is pulled and it doesn't

6 make a rating, there's certain steps that we

7 have to take as manufacturers. 

8 MR. MELCHI: I guess, given all of

9 this that we're discussing, it may have to

10 re-double or make sure that those are, I want

11 to make sure that our members are well aware

12 of everything. 

13 MR. ROCKY: So the issue -- and this

14 is Bryan. So the issue is going to get to be

15 a 14 SEER that's no longer 14 SEER, what are

16 we going to do as manufacturers? DOE is going

17 to require us to pull that inventory back from

18 the areas that can no longer be sold as 14

19 SEER. Those same units can now be still sold

20 as 13 something in the north, so we're looking

21 at the possibility having to remark them,

22 maybe changing, well, obviously change a
Page 257

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 rating plate or something that we've already

2 talked about as far as what's installed. 

3 There will be processes we'll have to work

4 through, but it just adds the complexity of,

5 you know, instead of recalling units and

6 having to dispose of them because they're not

7 13, now we just go from they're not 14, okay,

8 you can't sell them in the southwest and the

9 southeast, so manufacturers have decided how

10 they're going to handle it, take the inventory

11 back, can we resell those units in the north

12 or Canada or export or something else. 

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Doug, this is Dave

14 with Allied. This is somewhat in play today

15 already with minimum efficiency products. 

16 There's kind of a process in place. It's

17 just, as we apply it through regional

18 requirements, we have to kind of expand that. 

19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is Charlie

20 with ACCA. The issue there is the only

21 enforcement that comes down or the only actor

22 who has to take action in the situation you're
Page 258

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 describing is the manufacturer. But in this

2 case, because of regional standards, suddenly

3 the contractor makes a violation because they

4 don't know that yesterday the manufacturer

5 found out that this product isn't compliant

6 anymore and that contractor has -- I don't

7 know if there was resolution with the

8 contractor here is a knowing standard, but I

9 don't know how you prove that because that

10 could be easily abused. 

11 MR. LATTANZI: It seems like that

12 would come out in the DOE investigation, would

13 it not? 

14 MR. RAWALD: We would learn that. 

15 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, you would learn

16 that there was a re-rate and act

17 appropriately. 

18 MR. EISNER: So where are we in

19 this? Other than -- we're getting close. 

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

21 the ACCA. I don't know how the contractors

22 can find out quickly enough to satisfy the
Page 259

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 situation here. This is a real conundrum, and

2 I was just laughing because Doug keeps finding

3 these little things in this rule that are big,

4 big deals. 

5 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. We

6 intend, as AHRI, to amend the directory, to

7 modify the directory in the future, so that

8 you would be able to search by ZIP code and

9 you would know which products are, you know,

10 acceptable in this region. And the directory

11 is updated everyday, so, eventually, the

12 information will be there. So now the

13 question would be will the contractor work

14 with the director. 

15 MR. RAWALD: So I think this is a

16 problem that can be solved internally by the

17 manufacturers and not be regulated. I just

18 wanted to put people on notice that what we're

19 saying here is a discontinued product can be

20 installed, as long as it wasn't discontinued

21 because it was non-compliant. Discontinued

22 because it's non-compliant, it can't be
Page 260

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 installed because it's not compliant with the

2 region. So manufacturers have to decide how

3 they want to handle that with their

4 distribution chain as far as dealing with

5 what's out there. 

6 MR. LATTANZI: We're approaching the

7 end of the day, and just a couple of things

8 just occurred to me. It seems like this might

9 be something we want to caucus on. Does that

10 make sense? 

11 MR. RAWALD: Can we jump to the

12 second bullet before we jump out of here for

13 the day? So this, I think, goes back to what

14 we talked about earlier with the record

15 retention. So this is replacement

16 indoor/outdoor not certified as part of a

17 combination that meets the applicable

18 standard. So am I right in guessing folks who

19 just wanted to replace the outdoor unit and

20 not the indoor unit? Is that fair that people

21 only wanted the outdoor unit? So that's the

22 question that I'll bring back to the
Page 261

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Department tonight, so I wanted to make sure

2 we got that. Otherwise, manufacturers think

3 about how they want to handle the

4 distribution. Premises in the first bullet,

5 does everyone agree that's a general premise

6 that makes sense? It's just a question of how

7 you're going to handle dealing with these guys

8 that are out there. 

9 MR. WHITE: Doug, this is Chuck

10 White. Can I ask a question about your number

11 two bullet? 

12 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

13 MR. WHITE: Are we talking component

14 there, as opposed to system? 

15 MR. RAWALD: Right. So what we're

16 talking about here, once again, is you come to

17 a house just to replace the condensing unit,

18 and the condensing unit has to be a 14 SEER

19 condensing unit on the site but you know it's

20 not going to function at 14 SEER. 

21 MR. WHITE: Right. I think it would

22 be beneficial to put the word component in
Page 262

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 there so we know we're talking components and

2 not system. I'm assuming, probably in the

3 preamble, we'll discuss that component versus

4 system thing, but that would probably clarify

5 that.

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. 

7 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary. I

8 thought we had a big discussion about what was

9 a component and what was a system, and DOE had

10 determined that condensing unit was not a

11 component but maybe the compressor in it would

12 be a component. So I'm just worried about the

13 terminology here. 

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. Gary, that's

15 exactly how I look at it. I have a hard time

16 with the word "component" because it's

17 misleading. So I think of a component as

18 being the thing within the thing, you know,

19 the coil or the condensing of the coil or the

20 compressor. Those are the things that are the

21 components of the condensing unit.

22 So what we're talking about is if
Page 263

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you replace the condensing unit itself, the

2 outdoor unit, condensing unit, that it has to

3 be certified as compliant with the applicable

4 standard at the current rate, even though it

5 won't function at that level with the system

6 because the system itself is going to have a

7 lower-functioning indoor unit. 

8 So I want to use words that work, so

9 we may not use "component," but I get what

10 Chuck is saying and I'm trying to make sure

11 we're consistent with what we said before. 

12 MR. FENSTROM: Yes, I think we all

13 understand and agree with the intent. I was

14 just a little worried about the terminology.

15 MS. MEYERS: So, essentially, what

16 you're saying is if that outdoor unit has a

17 sticker on it that says prohibited for sale in

18 the southwest, it cannot be installed in the

19 southwest? 

20 MR. RAWALD: That's right. And that

21 applies to charged or uncharged, by the way,

22 just to make sure we're clear about . . . 
Page 264

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Anything else in slide

2 21? Anybody want to work for a couple more

3 hours, or do you want to quit now? 

4 MR. RAWALD: It seemed like Matt was

5 asking for a break. 

6 MR. EISNER: All right. 

7 MR. HUNGERFORD: Hello, this is

8 David. Can you guys hear me? 

9 MR. EISNER: Yes, David. 

10 MR. HUNGERFORD: I just want to let

11 you know that I have been listening this

12 entire time. I just had some sort of problem

13 with my mute capability. And that's a good

14 thing because there are things I would have

15 said that I probably would regret as having

16 said. 

17 MR. EISNER: Well, I assume you did

18 hear the part where Gary started to speak for

19 you? 

20 MR. HUNGERFORD: Yes. And he

21 actually did channel me pretty well there. I

22 did want to comment on that. But I was here
Page 265

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 for that. I just couldn't get in. So just to

2 verify I am listening. 

3 MR. EISNER: Good. All right. 

4 We'll see everybody tomorrow morning at 8:00,

5 9:00 rather. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 

7 matter went off the record at 4:55 

8 p.m.)

9 

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 266

A

$1500 183:1

A-coil 126:4 148:11

a.m 1:11 3:2 7:16

7:17 36:5,6

A/C 21:19 38:16

ability 16:15 19:16

109:8 148:17

164:2 169:10

171:9 193:8

220:14 221:16

223:21 231:15,20

246:6

able 11:20 12:9

74:16 92:22 97:13

98:4 101:21 102:2

102:7,8 111:16

115:10 132:4

135:20 138:16

146:2 148:5

158:16,18 163:21

168:4 177:9

187:17 190:13

193:9 200:20

201:11 204:7,9

225:3,21 229:8

230:20 231:9,14

232:22 233:18

235:14 237:22

238:17 250:18

259:8

above-entitled 7:15

36:4 66:17 117:3

above-referred

265:6

absent 210:18

absolutely 5:4

39:16 90:21

117:16 118:20

136:12 149:5,6

180:14 220:21

229:20 231:19

238:13

abstention 49:9,11

absurd 185:2

abused 258:10

ACCA 3:16 8:2

52:22 110:11

117:9 118:3,3

163:8 172:6 206:1

209:21 211:20

228:15 248:6

253:10 254:4

257:20 258:21

ACCA's 8:17

accept 10:13 17:7

60:1

acceptable 43:14

130:5 259:10

access 9:15 194:14

219:11

accessible 15:18

67:6

ACCIA 75:5

accompany 79:16

accomplished 27:3

account 174:11,18

177:12 182:19

188:4 189:11

190:7 195:1,7,13

195:22 196:20,22

205:10

accounts 183:6

accurate 124:9

accurately 88:17

achieve 19:2 87:8

135:16

achieved 88:14

achieving 162:9

255:16

ACHR 254:22

Acme 72:1 77:20

act 4:8 96:4 100:10

170:18 232:10,12

242:17 258:16

action 74:9 253:12

257:22

actions 73:6

activity 218:4

actor 257:21

actors 203:6

220:21

acts 193:6

actual 170:21

215:10

adamant 244:1

add 16:5 17:20

33:19 39:12 42:3

46:6 61:19 114:13

238:8

added 40:11,20

41:12 51:10 192:9

adding 45:14

130:14 221:6

addition 37:18,20

59:4 192:21 198:7

215:2

additional 61:19

208:7 247:9

additionally 49:19

address 10:22 11:5

11:5 15:16 20:22

58:21 97:20 110:7

179:15 180:4

190:22 225:17

addressed 71:3,4

addresses 87:10

180:7

adds 257:4

adept 126:13

adjectives 92:14

admitted 206:15

adopt 78:18 80:22

83:2,9 202:20

adopted 70:15

120:6 134:16

adopting 61:12

66:13 70:13 80:15

advertises 233:7

advice 114:21

advise 79:10

advocate 82:21

116:20

advocates 4:8 7:2

103:2 245:21

advocating 13:22

16:5

afferent 127:5

affiliated 175:16

afield 83:15

afraid 119:18

age 94:5

agent 54:9

aggregate 17:21

18:1,8

ago 23:5 24:22

137:8 140:17,17

140:17 150:16

agree 30:7,16 31:4

35:8 36:14 37:17

38:3 45:21 46:15

47:16 52:9 61:15

88:9 92:19 93:14

95:3 97:17 98:22

99:20 100:5

105:17 107:4

109:10 115:15

157:3,8 159:8

161:17,19 163:15

183:11 202:2

207:11 228:9

230:19 231:19

247:15 261:5

263:13

agreeable 179:21

agreed 31:8 39:18

42:12 47:14 50:22

97:10 98:3 227:13

228:12 238:8

250:12

agreeing 41:8

115:19

agreement 7:6 8:14

31:3 104:7 106:2

208:15 210:19

agrees 29:12

ahead 75:5 79:13

100:22 216:11

217:8 243:1

AHRI 15:1 33:18

43:5 87:13 158:5

158:17 215:2

254:18 256:3

259:6

aim 141:16

air 1:3,19 2:8 38:11

38:14 44:13 50:7

50:9,12,14 51:16

51:18 52:6,12

60:21 84:10 91:22

94:4,9 123:1,9,20

126:7,7 127:2,3,6

127:8,17 130:8

132:20,22 133:2

133:17 134:8,22

138:5 139:12,17

139:19 144:3

152:15,22 153:5,9

153:12 160:10,11

162:6,8,14 163:3

188:10 194:11

209:11,15

Air-Conditioning

2:6,10

air-moving 139:22

140:1,12

Alabama 233:8

234:4,11 243:9

alignment 8:9

alleged 10:1

alleviates 127:10

Allied 2:8 34:14

127:17 147:8

166:1 257:14

allow 63:17 94:7

230:7

allowed 255:2

allows 116:21

Allstyle 129:22

Alright 117:6

alter 211:13

alteration 14:15

alternative 106:11

115:22

alternatives 9:4

aluminum 141:7

amazing 232:4,6

ambiguation

214:15

ambiguity 54:4

138:4 160:7 211:3

amenable 25:8

28:20

amend 259:6

America 1:20
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 267

American 2:5,16

amount 12:3 22:20

24:19 99:4 152:6

152:8 176:8

177:19 229:22

242:10

amounts 191:20

AMRANE 2:10

36:12 44:2 130:19

131:15 136:9

156:21 157:12,21

158:12 159:4,11

159:13,18 259:5

Amy 2:6 14:22

31:10 55:16,21

87:12 88:9 111:21

215:2,17 223:17

244:14

Amy's 3:16

analogy 82:8

213:11 240:8

and-or 126:7

and/or 37:17 52:19

55:20 57:17

248:22

angle 158:4

Aniruddh 2:4

46:14 79:21 202:1

annoyed 196:8

anomaly 90:10

answer 20:4 29:10

34:15 37:13 64:11

65:16,18 100:11

109:21 128:6

137:22 158:7

173:15 189:5

190:14

answered 77:22

232:22

answers 181:12

anybody 3:9 7:19

12:7 20:22 46:17

47:4,21 48:2

53:14 57:2,21

61:12 66:13,22

70:13 112:11

115:2 118:15

120:5 190:1

199:15,16 245:13

248:14 250:18

264:2

anymore 70:12

182:12,20 253:7

255:2 258:6

anyway 84:10 92:6

97:16 210:15

apologize 104:10

144:6 186:3

app 195:19

apparent 36:10

appear 186:11

appears 54:16

239:2

apple 71:17

applecart 245:20

appliance 11:7

190:18

appliances 144:3

applicable 127:4

260:17 263:3

application 148:21

167:12 195:20,21

196:1,3

applies 251:22

263:21

apply 9:9 127:4,9

177:7 252:1

257:17

appreciate 95:1

114:8 164:18

185:13 196:15

202:9,21 236:12

approach 48:12

95:4 181:13

227:12,14 230:6

approaches 104:17

approaching 30:1

260:6

appropriate 101:7

110:4 114:17

120:13,16 135:15

147:4

appropriately

124:4 258:17

approval 48:9

103:19

approve 104:12

approved 6:17

44:18 48:4

approving 49:6,12

approximately

175:8

approximation

175:8

archive 246:15

archives 218:7

area 5:2 7:12 29:7

98:6 127:20

186:12 201:13

213:16 222:8

233:10

areas 26:21 31:8

80:9 94:4 181:4

256:18

arguing 191:22

argument 146:18

168:8

arises 6:5

Arkansas 205:12

231:4

arm 38:20 39:4,11

39:21 43:15 44:18

Armstrong 1:14

32:2,21 34:4,17

34:21 35:10,14

37:8,15 38:1,22

41:4 43:16

arrange 196:18

arrive 4:1 245:6

arrives 5:12

art 50:19

articulated 137:22

articulating 208:18

ascertain 158:18

Ashley 1:14 32:2,7

35:16,18 37:13,22

40:17,21 44:20

45:7 46:12 47:18

aside 92:17 93:11

askance 250:15

asked 32:3 41:13

74:13 77:15 80:20

81:6 172:8,9

189:19 197:16

200:7 230:7

234:15

asking 34:21 35:9

46:9 64:9 73:12

78:21 98:15 103:3

133:5 157:22

158:1 173:12

217:1,12,15 223:9

226:15 264:5

aspect 55:20

120:14,17 202:5

238:19

aspects 82:1

Aspen 129:22

assembled 144:10

assembly 160:9

assertion 76:10

96:1

assessment 95:21

247:7

assign 194:17

assignments

171:19

assistance 69:9

175:1,5

associated 210:10

Association 2:7

assume 7:13 13:14

171:12 191:1

206:19 264:17

assumed 232:11

assuming 43:11

198:14 262:2

assumption 91:3

173:11 190:10,11

assurance 6:21

assure 82:7 88:13

192:18

attach 99:2

attack 158:4

attend 84:19

attention 61:17

197:1 233:8

248:19

attic 151:22

attorneys 114:21

attractive 167:11

audio 97:14

audit 87:9 88:21

89:4,18 94:16

95:12,15 96:19

101:6 110:14

228:4

audited 89:10,21

90:9

auditing 101:4

audits 91:21 93:15

111:10

authorities 83:19

authority 114:14

114:15 119:14

220:7 228:1 234:7

authorization

163:15

auto 82:11,12

automated 196:6

217:20

available 12:6 63:8

67:10 70:5,8

81:10,21 82:2,17

93:3 104:5 109:3

205:17 207:20

256:4

Avenue 1:10

aware 256:11

axis 95:21

B

B 181:9 183:15

back 3:6 4:5 5:16

7:10,14 9:6 10:21

17:2,15 18:21

19:12 25:4 26:1

35:3 38:4 40:8

44:8 48:5,7,13

49:20 51:1,13

62:2 65:17 66:15

71:7,9,20 83:3,7

83:16,20 84:21

86:4 100:13

102:21 103:7

106:5 115:10,15
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 268

116:6,15 117:10

123:18 134:5

139:8,14 145:10

151:6 159:20

161:3,5,17 162:5

163:16 164:16

168:15 169:9

171:20 172:1

173:1,6 174:9,13

176:22 177:13

182:5,13 183:12

197:11,13,14

198:15,18 200:9

200:15 201:19

202:6,11 203:11

203:14,18 204:9

207:9,18 212:15

218:6 219:17

223:16,20 228:6

232:15,18 235:9

240:9,15 243:5

244:8 246:14

247:21 249:5

252:11 253:18

255:18 256:17

257:11 260:13,22

backdoor 194:10

bad 72:1 77:20

96:4 136:17

142:15,18 150:1

152:4,20 155:20

179:2 190:21

213:2,7,13 231:13

241:5 247:11

249:15

balance 206:12

balancing 25:9

Ballo 1:14 4:10,10

92:16 118:17

119:10 122:1,15

169:15 170:8,15

234:20

bank 78:6 194:15

BARHYDT 1:15

5:11,20 6:8,22 7:7

base 23:12 121:7

166:5,8

based 51:12 53:16

78:14 114:21

126:20 182:8

210:3 227:7

baseline 30:2 71:16

72:8 79:9 240:20

basement 205:16

basic 141:19

basically 55:22

136:17,19

basics 29:9

basis 81:1 180:4

188:14

bear 83:15

bearing 41:6

behalf 11:16 118:3

behaving 89:20

behold 91:16 143:4

belief 75:12,19,22

76:6 79:22 96:5

111:2,6 112:22

212:16,18,20

213:20 215:3

216:8 217:6,7

222:9,21 223:22

227:4 231:10

239:11,13 240:13

241:13,14,15

245:12 246:19

believe 4:5 30:11

73:19 76:9,15

82:14 87:7 105:6

110:7 116:20

121:5 125:7 162:7

162:16 170:21

171:14 178:3

194:1 213:7,14

214:8 216:11

219:17 241:13

242:16

believed 118:5

beneficial 261:22

benefit 129:1

172:13 197:8

best 10:18 11:2,3

11:10 23:19 48:18

62:10 87:22 95:4

96:20 106:10

158:7 208:17

better 10:10 26:5

28:11,14 30:15,17

35:9 37:6 62:4

68:14 81:19

105:21 112:7

133:19 136:2,8

144:1 155:5

168:13 169:4

beyond 92:9

212:22

bias 78:7

bid 216:9 241:18

bidding 129:18

bids 215:19 216:4

big 15:21 17:13

20:7 57:6,7,12,12

57:12,16 104:20

104:20 174:16

175:2,18 250:2

259:3,4 262:8

bigger 133:22

biggest 81:13

bill 197:7 241:17

Biloxi 136:3

bird 238:17

birds 119:2

bit 12:4 22:19

49:21 53:22 98:19

99:19 122:3,22

125:6 166:2 167:4

173:19 179:2

185:1 190:16

209:16 225:19

226:12 244:13,16

blank 50:1

blew 139:1

blood 221:8

blow 140:4

blower 37:2 38:12

38:17,21 39:4,13

41:11 43:15 44:16

blueprint 245:7

board 21:16 202:9

202:21

body 221:9

boggled 134:10

bone 193:11

border 121:1,3,5

121:19 169:22

borrow 178:1

bother 71:10,16

75:15 222:22

242:11 243:1

bothering 78:20

bottom-up 235:15

bought 209:12

224:12,13 233:9

234:16

box 14:2 57:6,7,13

57:16 104:20

142:12 151:22

152:1,2,13 193:19

228:18

brainstorm 16:11

branch 18:4

branches 18:8,14

28:13 175:9,10

199:10

brand 129:14

142:11 174:5,6,7

breadth 107:1

break 3:4 7:8 66:15

115:5 116:18

171:20 172:8

264:5

bring 19:11 25:22

83:3 103:7 161:17

164:16 173:1

200:15 201:18

203:14 207:9

223:16 260:22

brings 80:17 93:16

172:19 197:22

broad 61:22 85:5

109:1,6

broadening 106:18

broadly 93:9 124:8

broke 49:22 50:4

broker 250:2

Brother 105:16

brought 18:17 28:6

33:9 49:20 71:7

95:18 126:20

160:6 248:18

Bryan 2:4 51:12

52:3,15 58:3

59:18 64:6,13

66:5 130:2 140:18

149:12 180:21

182:16 186:2

198:8 202:2

231:19 235:19

236:6 238:2,7

256:14

Bryan's 58:21

BTU 148:16

buckets 29:3,6

bucks 191:3

budget 221:15

bugging 239:17

246:12

build 124:16 231:6

building 83:18

84:17 86:9,10,16

86:20 209:9

built 78:5 187:6,7

187:18,19

built-in 210:15

bullet 38:2 40:11

40:20 41:7 44:22

46:6,18 47:4 67:3

69:13 207:18

214:20 248:19

251:5,9,10 260:12

261:4,11

bullets 38:7 46:5,16

47:2 208:20

bump 202:10

bunch 230:4

burden 10:2 24:18

25:18 128:21

129:6 157:5 175:2

207:2 221:7,22

227:20 246:14

burdensome 95:16

169:3

business 11:13,22

15:20 16:7 17:8

21:2,8 54:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 269

56:14 57:6 76:13

77:11 78:14,21

79:14 101:6,10

164:1 181:9

183:18,22 197:2

199:6,15,19 209:7

222:7 227:21,22

234:4,13 242:13

242:15

butt 191:10 205:14

buy 10:18 11:2,3,6

11:10 13:17 43:3

43:4 83:22 85:22

118:22 119:3

125:9 184:20

186:18 188:10,13

188:21 189:18

255:14

buyer 61:2

buying 11:10

180:10 234:13

buys 28:3 30:20

174:8

C

cabinet 141:21

148:12 168:5

cabinets 204:2

calendar 236:14

California 1:17

2:14 61:15 72:19

81:2 86:7,13,15

101:18 219:5

229:7

call 22:9 46:22

71:19,22 77:20

86:2 102:16 112:6

114:3,22 118:14

143:12 151:9

177:5 204:15

232:16

called 47:18 144:14

calling 81:3 148:10

199:9 219:16

calls 71:18

Canada 257:12

capability 67:11

91:11 264:13

capable 106:12

132:9 162:9,15

163:3 203:22

capacities 198:22

capacitors 190:19

capacity 148:16

193:20

capture 56:17 62:7

175:4 249:8

capturing 192:5

card 10:20 150:16

cards 21:1

care 43:9 156:2

careful 20:16 35:5

131:21 137:7

140:15

Carolina 200:14

carried 189:8

Carrier 1:18 44:12

129:20

cart 71:17

carve 164:2

carving 165:2,3

case 7:4 17:11

23:19 60:12 137:1

140:19 153:15,16

158:21 180:17

193:13 231:7

242:20 258:2

cased 141:9 152:4

cases 13:21 14:3

48:20 222:17

236:1

cash 10:6,8,9,13,17

11:7,9,21 12:1,13

12:20 14:8,12,21

15:20 17:6,6,12

18:6,18 21:3

27:11 173:9,20

176:3 177:6,12

178:6 182:4,10,12

182:18 183:3,18

184:2,14,15 186:7

186:14,18 187:8

187:22 188:5,7,9

188:14,22 189:9

189:15,19 190:6

191:21 195:16

197:7 202:16

cash-based 181:22

casing 141:10

142:6

catch 205:11

category 141:15

caucus 3:5 4:9,14

5:6 6:14 7:20

29:1 46:20 97:8

116:18 260:9

caucused 27:6

caucusers 6:6

caucusing 115:4

caught 95:22 96:6

96:12 97:1 99:3,4

113:22 204:14

cause 59:4 214:7

230:5

causing 40:22

45:15 186:4

222:18

caveat 29:19 33:22

34:3 172:21

188:20 198:2

253:8

caveated 81:11

102:22

ceasing 253:18

central 1:3 44:13

50:7,9,11,14

52:12 127:3

134:22 139:17

certain 9:2 10:12

13:9 75:13 79:12

85:8 97:15 98:7

124:11,19 132:5,9

188:21 226:14

242:9 256:6

certainly 26:8 32:4

48:16,20 73:7

74:10 84:16 85:17

175:14 176:15

178:5 196:6

220:11 254:18

certification 158:5

188:22 189:1

certified 29:20

45:11 46:1,2

132:4 135:10,17

146:2 158:9,17

251:7,12,17,20

252:4,6,17 253:2

260:16 263:3

certify 39:22 42:11

139:4

certifying 136:6

CFR 31:13 124:2

chain 11:3 22:8

24:11 181:14

201:3 203:7,12

225:5 237:8 260:4

challenge 12:8

chance 4:19 8:3,8

25:8 70:6 161:4

178:15 196:17

204:13

change 11:13,22

16:21 17:13 21:10

33:8 34:5 40:7

50:5 104:6 133:17

133:20 134:1

136:18 138:2

142:19 143:2

152:1 155:18

160:19 177:11

178:7 181:6

183:17 192:22

199:12,13 214:18

236:18 237:9

252:11 256:22

change-outs 151:8

changed 50:19

70:13 92:14

127:22 150:15

changes 31:2 51:6

85:12 186:10

199:12 237:7

changing 51:8

150:17,22 151:4,9

151:11 166:3,3

214:19 236:3,17

256:22

channel 264:21

chapters 85:9,10

charged 263:21

charging 188:4

CHARLES 1:19

2:7

Charlie 3:4,16 4:15

8:1 52:21 69:17

75:4 77:14 110:10

110:19 112:18

117:9 118:2

120:13,16 149:13

163:7 164:17

167:3 169:8 172:6

183:19 205:21,22

207:5 209:20

211:19 222:5

228:14 248:5

253:9 254:3

257:19 258:20

Charlie's 150:13

chart 146:22

cheating 91:17,18

check 3:8 89:5

93:10 110:17

118:6 195:14

238:20

checked 105:9

checklist 245:8

checks 80:18 92:5

Chicago 18:4

choice 10:20

Chuck 24:5,19 25:1

43:1 56:8 57:5,8,8

57:16 69:21 83:14

107:2 125:16

127:11 140:13

146:9 147:7,13

149:13,18 150:10

167:1 169:8 172:6

172:7 174:4,5,5,9

174:11 178:2

183:19 194:3

196:16 204:20

205:21 208:11,18

208:22 213:15,18

213:20,21,22

214:3,5 222:5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 270

252:22 253:7

255:21 261:9

263:10

Chuck's 26:3 45:4

76:21 207:19

214:8

chunk 175:18

circle 134:5 198:18

circling 151:6

city 184:21

claims 222:6

clarification 62:17

115:17 125:19

160:18

clarified 160:9,20

clarify 41:10 44:7

92:14 126:22

144:4 173:11

196:4 262:4

clarity 249:2

clarity's 249:17

CLARK 2:12

class 13:12

classes 86:9

clear 14:16 34:9

40:19 57:3 59:13

60:19 61:6 68:15

111:1 120:1

126:19 135:5

160:22 180:6,20

185:7 207:22

236:13 243:4

247:7 251:4

252:18 263:22

clearly 31:19

137:22 182:19

clever 196:19

close 67:15 258:19

closer 145:14

code 85:12 86:7,10

86:16 259:8

coil 28:4,6,7 33:16

34:1 37:1,2,19

38:12,17,21 39:4

39:10 41:11,11

43:15 44:16,16

124:6 125:12

126:6 127:7 130:1

130:8,21 131:4,7

131:18,21 132:1

133:1,20 135:10

135:13,15 136:17

136:18,19 137:4

137:10,11,13,17

140:11,19,21

141:6,9,20 142:4

142:7,14,15 143:7

143:18 144:11,20

147:11 148:2

149:20 151:7,15

151:21 152:4,4,18

152:20 153:6,9,16

153:17,18 154:12

154:13,15,20

155:5,10,14,15

156:8,10,17 157:1

157:11,17 158:1

158:12 159:16,17

159:21 160:1,9,12

160:20,21 188:12

262:19,19

coil's 151:20

coil-indoor 156:10

coil-only 33:11

34:6,11 38:15

39:3 42:6 44:15

coiling 140:11

coils 28:2 123:9

126:18 142:5

147:9 151:12

152:16 159:3

coin 153:19

collect 179:22

226:8

collecting 99:6

184:19 217:22

collectively 97:19

combination 29:16

29:21 41:22 42:11

42:17 45:12 158:8

242:18 251:7

260:17

combinations

36:18,21 43:12

46:1,2 167:11

combined 124:10

come 27:15 35:11

44:8 61:6 62:11

65:17 66:15 74:9

79:1 85:11,14

90:19 94:8 106:5

108:4 110:2

114:11 115:15

116:6,14 119:16

161:5 168:15

171:20 174:5,9

177:13 186:7,17

197:14 198:15

201:1,14 202:6,11

208:15 215:19

219:16 223:20,20

232:18 244:3

245:19 247:13,20

255:18 258:12

261:16

comes 28:3 42:15

130:5 174:8,8

207:11 240:9

244:8 255:22

257:21

comfort 226:12

246:21

comfortable 26:22

27:2 29:13 30:10

45:18 46:10,11

48:1,16 72:13

222:8 247:4,16

coming 20:8 33:2,7

79:18 91:2 145:6

222:2 240:2 244:9

commensurate

94:5

comment 6:1 37:17

62:13 129:1

169:13 190:16

211:8 264:22

commented 162:7

comments 13:1

19:21 32:17,22

33:10,18 36:16

37:5 41:10 49:5

49:14 52:1 63:2

63:20 66:11 70:18

75:3 118:15 119:5

120:11 121:13

162:20 184:6

commercial 50:10

50:11

Commission 2:15

commit 44:21 46:7

46:13 81:8 82:17

93:1,4 103:5

177:8 221:4

228:20

commitment 63:14

81:19,21 82:6

87:6 88:11 89:17

100:1,8 103:14

106:15

committed 47:13

111:18 113:1

committee 18:16

committing 96:4

common 137:17

138:5 151:12

commonly 167:9

communities 85:11

community 85:22

companies 15:19

56:17 91:19

company 1:21 2:4

25:6 53:1,3,7,13

76:21 77:4 179:14

180:8 183:17

195:17 196:9

198:12 234:8

243:1,6

compare 38:4

172:15

compelled 168:19

competitor 243:21

complainant 211:1

213:9 214:12

complaint 63:18

72:3 75:9 76:22

77:6 78:11 79:2,7

89:5 214:8 241:8

241:10

complaints 71:12

76:11 78:6 79:11

91:16 211:2

213:10 214:1,13

247:8,12

complete 123:4

125:22 126:5,15

127:10 138:22

144:15 148:10

158:18 159:7,7

160:1,12 168:22

188:10 252:16

completed 138:22

completely 92:19

102:22 103:17

236:16 247:4

complexity 46:7

200:3 257:4

compliance 82:7

86:8,12 87:1,9

88:13 94:10,18

95:2,19 96:18

108:7 192:19

210:1,7,9 221:16

237:13 238:20

compliant 9:18

74:8 81:4 135:9

252:5,11 254:6,17

258:5 260:1 263:3

complicate 220:14

complicated 42:6

252:10

complication 61:20

167:20

comply 91:20 94:6

173:22 175:20

176:9 177:10

component 127:2

132:20 139:16

142:4,8 156:5

261:13,22 262:3,9

262:11,12,16,17

263:9

components 27:16

70:16 130:4

142:20 150:22

151:4 262:1,21
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 271

composing 98:10

comprehending

184:16

comprehensive

19:15 26:8 92:20

compressor 44:14

150:1 262:11,20

compromises 25:3

134:4

concept 6:16 84:22

concern 8:16 27:9

40:22 58:22 79:19

87:6 99:13 103:1

114:10 126:2,9

127:11 134:5

159:1,3 163:17

164:3 181:4 204:5

208:17,19 217:18

223:16 248:18

concerned 8:12

37:4 55:2 73:1

78:1 186:9,10

237:16

concerning 77:13

concerns 40:17

63:2,21 66:12

74:19 161:6 203:3

210:17 214:22

222:5 248:15

concur 83:10

condenser 130:7

131:3 150:8

160:13 186:18

191:5

condenser-only

127:19

condensing 21:19

27:13 29:17,20

34:10 41:20 123:2

124:13,15,18

125:5 128:4,5,9

128:10 129:13

134:15 135:9,21

142:18 145:21

146:12,14,17

147:3,15 148:13

149:1,8 150:18

151:10 152:21

153:7,13 154:8

158:10 167:8,15

168:10 188:12

206:2 261:17,18

261:19 262:10,19

262:21 263:1,2

conditioned 60:21

conditioner 1:3

38:11,14 50:7,9

50:12,14 51:17,19

52:6,12 91:22

94:9 123:1 127:2

127:3 132:20

135:1 139:17

conditioners 44:13

84:10 123:20

152:16 194:11

209:11,15

conditioning 1:19

94:4 188:10

conduct 69:11

104:5

conducting 93:4

117:12

confer 109:18

confession 225:8

confidence 245:18

confident 87:8

242:10

confine 120:19

confounding 136:5

confused 39:5

93:17 138:7 144:5

233:2

confusing 53:22

252:8,13

confusion 59:4

126:20 130:5

157:19 186:4

connect 23:20

connected 225:17

connection 51:17

52:6,13,17

connotes 134:7

consensus 61:7

207:11

consequence

143:15

consequences

222:16

consequently 220:5

consider 25:22

41:13 70:14 74:10

74:17 81:10,22

82:3 87:14 88:4

88:19 89:4 93:5

103:6 104:4 107:5

107:10,21 108:20

109:4 110:6 111:8

112:11 113:12

117:12 119:14

154:11,12 210:13

213:5 214:2

247:11

consideration

102:21 203:21

204:18

considerations

100:21

considered 97:3

166:22 255:3

considering 88:20

199:5,18

consistency 181:1

consistent 34:7

181:13 202:8

248:10,13 263:11

consisting 188:11

consists 127:6

133:1 140:10

144:16

constantly 237:9

constituents 115:22

116:7

constitute 80:5

constrain 112:20

222:14

constrained 78:10

149:10 223:21

constraint 161:14

164:15 200:6

231:9

constraints 148:17

221:15

consultants 86:9

Consulting 2:13

consumers 63:10

consuming 79:15

cont'd 2:1

contact 11:1

133:14 192:6

contain 189:13

contemplating

72:22

contentious 116:16

context 69:2 138:2

141:14 245:4

contexts 54:1

continue 186:22

235:22 236:8

continuing 236:19

contract 154:6

248:16

contracting 243:6

contractor 9:10,14

22:11 25:20 43:9

50:1,6,22 51:7

52:22 53:2,16

55:1,18,19 57:13

57:18 58:7,12

59:1,2,6,12 60:11

71:10,16 76:2

78:20 102:3,14

118:12 121:19

122:5,8,12,16

129:9 135:8

149:17 167:12,21

167:22 169:18,19

170:2,2,16 171:14

172:13 181:8

182:7 184:17,20

188:2 192:8 201:3

204:14 205:18

206:8 215:20

216:14,15 217:9

217:13 218:14,19

224:11,16 226:20

233:6,11,11,21

234:5,10,22 235:8

243:8 248:6,20

249:6,22 251:11

254:4,10 258:3,6

258:8 259:13

contractor's 78:14

79:14 112:14

163:18 171:9

204:8

contractor/dealer

60:5

contractors 1:20

2:7 3:21 8:7 24:4

26:18 57:16,19

63:9 69:12 101:4

120:10,20 121:16

137:14 173:14

182:9 187:5

196:21 199:3

203:15 204:1

206:16,20 213:16

229:15 231:2,2,4

231:5 258:21

contrarian 205:2

contribute 86:7

213:19

control 136:2

201:16

Controls 2:4 236:8

conundrum 259:1

conversation 21:11

59:8 137:8 172:7

184:11 191:8

converted 13:11

convey 96:21

convinced 55:13

205:6 221:9

245:14

cool 238:16

coolants 39:12

cooling 127:7 133:1

133:2 155:16

182:22

cooperate 86:4

Cooperative 1:16

copies 189:22

cops 82:10

copy 238:7 241:15

241:16,17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 272

Corporation 1:18

correct 4:18 11:17

11:18 37:21 38:8

39:16 40:15 42:13

42:14 43:11 53:1

120:18 139:2

146:4 159:4,5,13

163:2 171:11,17

229:21 241:20,21

correctly 39:14

42:20 68:22

157:21 224:22

225:6

corresponding

231:12

cost 76:4 92:2 99:4

152:9

costs 184:1

cough 76:3

Council 2:2,5,16

Counsel 1:15 2:3

counter 12:20

13:10 26:19 63:12

180:11 181:17

186:17 189:12

192:6 194:12

counterpart 3:21

country 80:9 86:18

186:6,13

couple 3:18 13:4

74:13 83:20

115:16 137:8

177:17 197:17

228:21 260:7

264:2

course 13:6 15:18

62:12 107:11

114:6 119:1

COURT 3:13

cover 52:14 57:11

119:7

covered 28:8 38:18

50:18 51:8 123:9

248:12

covers 29:7

create 16:1 39:4

47:17 96:18

174:17 201:10

211:11,22

created 212:6

creating 189:21

211:14 212:9

credible 70:22 72:2

72:7 75:9 76:22

244:19

credit 10:20 182:8

182:11,22 183:14

183:15,16 187:8

189:10 195:19,19

195:21,22 196:3

197:3

credits 182:20

criminal 213:11

criteria 98:8

critical 79:12

crosses 121:19

culture 96:18

current 63:14

142:22 150:2

256:3 263:4

currently 63:3

75:16

customer 10:12

131:11 174:7

187:9 220:6

customers 21:16

48:22 58:4 66:7

175:1 180:2

181:19 186:7,8,16

187:4 192:12

220:5 232:5 233:9

cut 83:20

cutoff 169:11

CVS 176:6

D

D.C 1:11 80:8

data 20:19 75:20

99:6 187:10

194:15

database 43:5,5

158:5,16 202:16

211:16

date 23:14,16,17

191:16 192:1

193:14 210:1,7,9

210:12 237:19

Dave 34:13 39:14

127:16 165:22

167:8 185:6

219:15 236:2

243:21 244:7,8,21

244:22 253:3,6

257:13

Dave's 244:17,20

245:3

David 2:8,14 95:17

97:8 99:19 147:8

184:7 186:3

190:15 191:12

220:2 229:5

237:16 264:8,9

day 43:21 62:9

143:18 152:11

182:1 184:2,3

234:17 239:16

260:7,13

day-to-day 196:5

days 3:9 142:17

208:2,9,13,13

209:8,16

deal 14:20 21:4

85:11 174:10

187:17 222:16

223:2

dealer 25:14,14

50:1,21 53:16

55:1 248:6,20

dealers 25:16

120:10,20 121:17

248:16

dealerships 82:11

dealing 58:4

184:18 187:5

260:4 261:7

deals 174:6 259:4

death 239:17

decide 116:4 125:9

198:4 207:22

213:6 242:22

247:3 251:13

260:2

decided 257:9

decides 250:1

deciding 45:10

deck 26:6 28:18

36:1

decline 5:5

deemed 13:21

deems 110:4

defeats 16:2

Defense 2:2

defer 83:4

define 50:3 54:14

62:18 80:1 143:22

241:12

defined 56:16

124:1 127:1

132:17,19 133:12

138:9 234:18

defines 59:11 138:8

139:6

defining 55:2

definitely 25:22

181:14 200:21

definition 49:22

51:11 53:1 54:20

55:20 56:18 57:15

57:22 58:19,22

59:3,10 60:3

127:9 134:6 139:6

140:8 141:1,11,15

142:6 143:17

154:1,4 157:14

160:7 249:6

definitions 49:14

49:17,19 50:3

60:7 141:16

DEGITZ 2:13

52:11

degrade 135:21

delete 47:9 58:1

153:4

deleted 59:17 68:11

deleting 57:22

59:20 60:3

delisted 255:1

delta 200:13

demand 67:6 69:20

denies 233:22

department 1:1,14

1:15 2:3 16:15,19

19:12 26:11 30:5

30:20 38:2,6

41:13 47:8,13

49:20 63:15 71:8

71:8 72:5 73:3,20

74:6,11,16 78:10

80:21 81:6,14

82:22 83:8,9,11

84:22 85:4 88:19

88:21 91:5 103:8

104:16 105:8

109:8 112:22

121:10 160:3

164:8 169:11

173:1 178:21

200:10 207:10

212:6 214:1

247:17 252:4

261:1

department's

64:15 84:14

105:11

departments 83:18

depending 174:19

depends 17:3 31:3

32:16 178:2 210:8

230:3

Depot 10:18

described 12:19

98:17 253:11

describes 141:15

describing 258:1

designed 127:4

132:21 139:18

designs 166:19

desirable 61:16,18

desire 169:11 226:8

desk 108:4 194:18

destroy 15:10

details 6:17 7:3

19:4,6 21:7 33:5

34:4

determinative

224:3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 273

determine 81:4

101:14 108:21

117:13 220:19

241:14

determined 94:11

239:3 262:10

deterrent 102:12

107:18 114:6

Detest 249:21

Detroit 12:19 18:4

develop 11:20

developer 61:2

deviation 174:16

device 98:4 127:7,8

133:2,3 139:22

140:1,12,12,20

141:6,8 143:18

155:17,19

diameter 134:18

dictated 135:3

dictating 105:19

difference 43:22

75:7 92:3,11

150:6 183:9

differences 92:17

different 24:3,10

24:11 34:22 35:1

35:1 55:17 62:5

62:12 64:17 66:4

80:9 90:19 95:13

96:13,22 103:4

104:16 114:12

125:11,17 136:4

138:20 151:1

158:4 203:6 232:6

237:5 242:20

differentiation

182:18

differing 203:6

difficult 15:21 39:8

173:22 179:17

181:7 184:13

219:7 221:20

222:12 254:6

255:10

difficulties 184:14

difficulty 185:13

219:22 220:5

digging 77:3

dilemma 9:19 10:6

10:7

direct 228:10

directed 236:7

directing 158:6

direction 110:3

115:22 235:16

directly 33:18

85:18,20 250:13

director 259:14

directory 259:6,7

259:10

disadvantage

191:17

disagree 37:17

disconnect 42:18

153:22

discontinue 252:20

discontinued 253:3

259:19,20,21

discontinuing

82:19

discover 228:5

discretion 73:15

105:11

discuss 18:22 48:1

120:13,17 145:7

173:2 211:9 247:3

262:3

discussed 26:7

27:10,16 28:2

47:13 48:2 49:17

54:12 71:6 86:11

86:15 95:5 125:18

161:11 193:5

246:9 251:5

discussing 108:13

256:9

discussion 9:3

14:19 35:8 40:20

44:3 51:20 52:5

52:10 66:6 70:22

130:6 183:13

245:16 262:8

discussions 123:11

163:6

dishwasher 11:11

dispense 26:21

disposal 23:13 74:2

dispose 257:6

disposition 23:17

disprove 218:17

disrupt 76:12

79:13 245:20

disrupting 78:13

101:9

disruptive 77:10

101:6

disrupts 237:8

dissuade 96:3

distending 36:16

distinction 187:18

distraction 32:3

35:16

distributer 67:18

distributers 68:5

distribution 28:12

99:10 181:1 182:6

182:8 186:5,9

187:4 202:17

205:7 237:8

253:18 260:4

261:4

distributor 11:12

12:16 17:3,4,14

18:3,9 20:9 21:4,9

25:11 68:1 122:7

169:19 170:17,18

181:5,9 183:8,14

183:15 188:6

191:18,18 199:19

201:1,4 211:12

217:3,12 218:13

219:20 220:8

224:13,15,19

228:5,11,16,20

229:9 230:11,20

232:3,16,18 233:1

233:4,6,15,19,19

234:3,7,21 235:7

237:22 244:3

249:11 250:12,14

255:13

distributor's 201:5

218:18 227:22

228:3

distributors 3:20

8:6 10:8,16 11:17

11:19 17:16 20:7

24:4 63:12 69:7

69:11 85:2 94:16

124:22 173:13,16

178:3 185:3

187:22 189:18,21

191:13 192:12

193:18 196:17

197:3 198:21,22

199:2,5 200:4

203:16 215:7

216:17 219:9

220:4 222:11

224:6 232:5

236:17 248:16

distributorship

188:2,14

division 87:19

doable 209:4

dock 185:19

doctored 218:20

document 110:9

documentation

128:12

Doe 6:19 9:22

15:22 21:15 31:11

36:17 37:7 42:11

43:5 44:17 50:8

59:11 63:13 72:22

73:13 81:18 82:3

82:16,17 85:17

87:14,16 88:10,12

89:3 93:1,3 94:3

94:15 100:1 103:5

105:18 106:12,15

107:12,19 108:20

109:3 110:3,20

112:2,10,14

113:11 114:1,5

118:21 120:2

131:17 171:8

199:4,18,22 208:5

212:15 215:8

227:16,22 237:13

239:2,3 245:18,22

246:3,5,12,19

249:3 256:16

258:12 262:9

DOE's 28:9 73:15

87:5 220:14,14

221:13

dog 193:10 238:18

doing 12:8 54:16

56:12 79:16 91:11

91:13 106:12

107:10 114:1,2,3

114:5 119:15

129:17 135:18

156:13 157:10

164:4 173:4

174:15 181:16

188:5 200:11

206:18 211:16

212:2 213:2,7

227:16 243:10

dollars 105:12

door 112:14 194:7

201:5 227:16

doorstep 90:1

DORIA 1:16 60:8

61:9 70:19 95:9

113:8,15 220:16

dot 63:1 139:3

dots 23:21

double 102:22

doubt 86:19 212:22

Doug 2:3 4:1 5:11

5:19 9:21,22

15:18 16:12 17:1

19:10 22:18 24:1

24:9 27:11 38:7

40:14 42:7,14

44:20 46:14 49:16

52:4 53:21 55:7

58:20 59:19 65:6

66:6 67:8 79:21

80:6 81:16 99:1

100:7 106:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 274

114:12,19 119:12

123:17 126:11

127:16 130:3,13

130:19 133:9

134:21 136:10

137:20 140:9

150:19 151:7

157:15 158:1

160:4 162:4,7

163:8 168:9,15

169:15 171:8

172:17 173:10

177:16 180:5,21

182:16 185:7

190:2 193:9,10

200:3 202:13

203:20 204:20

208:4 211:10

215:17 222:1

230:8 231:18

233:14 234:6

237:18,20 238:14

243:3,4 245:13

246:8 257:13

259:2 261:9

Doug's 6:7 14:11

41:14 61:17

193:13 221:2

doughnuts 194:8

Douglas 83:14

downside 55:9

downstream 54:17

252:19

downtown 190:18

draft 45:5

drafted 34:3

225:12 252:14

draw 165:10

235:18

drive 194:10

200:14

driver's 14:13

15:22

drivers 196:2

drop 56:22,22

126:14 250:12

dropping 127:10

drugs 13:10

druthers 179:6

duct 140:4

dump 127:15

E

earlier 7:12 18:11

28:2 81:17 97:8

123:12 149:18

151:7 161:11

175:22 219:16

221:13 260:14

early 7:10

Earthjustice 1:14

118:18

easier 19:13 27:12

27:20 58:5 64:22

125:6 135:7 176:5

192:19

easily 15:17 84:5

151:10 177:10

258:10

easy 16:3 196:14

244:15 245:6

eat 194:8

Economy 2:5,17

edges 26:9

education 83:21

86:8

EER 29:19

effect 187:16

211:14

effective 97:4 99:8

104:14,18 105:3,6

105:12,14 206:10

effectively 27:19

107:8

effectiveness 92:21

219:18

efficacious 204:11

efficiency 91:14

147:10 166:5

245:21 257:15

efficient 2:17 29:15

34:7,10 38:12,13

39:19,20,22 42:3

42:11 43:7,12

123:13,14

effort 179:22 223:4

efforts 27:1 69:4

105:3

ego 32:11

eight 205:3,5

Eisner 1:11,13 3:3

4:2,15 5:1 6:2,16

7:8,18,21 12:11

13:1 19:21 20:21

32:14 36:7,10

46:17 47:3,17

49:4,10 52:1 57:2

57:21 58:16 59:21

60:2 61:11 62:20

63:20 65:1,21

66:11,20 70:12

75:2 80:14 92:12

98:9,13 100:7

109:11,14 110:1

112:9 114:10

115:2 116:2,13

117:1,6 118:15

119:18 120:4,9

121:13 161:21

171:18 172:3,18

173:3,16 184:6,9

190:1 197:22

198:6,13 201:20

203:1 210:16

212:8 214:21

224:7 226:17

233:2 234:12

241:7 245:11

247:20 248:14

250:16 258:18

264:1,6,9,17

265:3

either 56:10 58:17

60:1 75:19 84:9

85:7 93:15 121:19

153:4,10 179:17

215:11 226:10

234:22

elaborate 33:12

80:1

electric 1:16 20:3

141:19 152:22

electrical 51:18

52:6,13

eliminate 55:9

59:10 163:11

eliminating 93:7

Elizabeth 2:2 63:22

88:15 89:14 91:1

95:11

Elizabeth's 96:7

Ellis 1:16 7:20 20:2

80:6,6,12 97:21

email 11:5 27:10

63:18

empathetic 87:5

employee 54:6,9

encourage 84:16

118:9

energy 1:1,14,15

2:3,14,16 64:16

76:5 86:9 91:14

241:16 247:18

Energy-Efficient

2:5

enforce 20:9 68:22

73:20 74:1,3 82:9

87:22

enforceability

48:19 49:2

enforcement 1:3

67:4 84:2 87:17

87:19 88:5 97:4

106:20 134:3,14

135:6 136:7 169:3

219:19 236:5

257:21

engage 85:19

engender 96:9

engineers 38:10

ensuring 108:7

enter 10:11 236:15

entered 97:14

195:6

Enterprises 2:8

entire 27:22 31:3

48:6 131:8,10

137:15,19 151:17

153:8 223:9 237:8

240:11 264:12

entirely 138:20

218:22 219:2

entities 24:2 199:20

216:19

entity 54:2,10

113:1 235:1

248:21

envision 140:14

141:18 188:9

envisioning 193:10

215:18 249:3

EPCA 123:10

equipment 8:18

24:3 34:15,20

39:16 143:13

175:10,15 194:6,9

195:11 229:10

241:17

equivalent 133:19

ERIC 2:16

ERP 14:16 16:8

211:13

especially 35:18

108:3 181:2,16

182:4 246:13

essentially 9:1,12

9:16,17 16:1 51:5

51:21 123:20

198:15 206:19

211:16 228:21

263:15

establish 150:20

217:14 222:3

established 183:8

219:6

estimate 39:11

estimated 28:12

etcetera 19:7

evaporator 134:9

146:19,21 147:2,9

147:11,17 150:15

evaporators 146:15

147:19

eventually 225:22

259:11

everybody 6:17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 275

7:10,14,21 32:15

70:6,8 85:15 98:2

117:6 134:12

172:18 194:21

197:9 198:13

204:6 209:9

247:16 255:6

265:4

everyday 259:11

everyone's 100:15

104:7

evidence 221:3

247:9

evil 104:11

evokes 133:13

exact 55:19 152:5

exactly 6:11 19:5

35:2 171:10

217:16 262:15

example 18:5 64:14

186:3 224:10

226:20 244:15

excessive 229:22

exchange 106:15

141:5

exclude 39:3

excludes 138:6

exclusion 144:1

exclusive 160:10

exclusively 12:20

exemption 165:2,3

exercise 246:6

exhaustively 70:21

exist 121:17

existing 149:1

150:21

exists 121:18

192:19

expand 52:7

257:18

expansion 127:7

133:2 140:11

143:19 144:12

155:13,17,19

expect 254:19

expecting 186:15

186:16 196:2

expense 240:17

expensive 20:20

240:18

experience 84:18

154:19 189:17

expert 18:12

explain 58:11

130:18 208:7

209:19

explaining 58:6

explore 123:5

export 257:12

expressed 97:9

181:4 220:9,10

extended 182:12

extension 84:1

235:19

extent 14:11 20:5

82:13 94:16 95:20

96:8 101:7

extra 129:6 208:6

223:2

extract 88:11

extraordinary

108:11

extreme 17:11

eye 118:6

eyebrows 249:2

eyes 110:17 118:8

134:10

F

face 108:9

faces 99:2

Facilitator 1:11,13

fact 12:4 13:6 16:8

16:13 96:12,14

100:20 164:9

186:4 196:11

202:9 210:3,14

221:14 226:7

233:16 240:6

243:14

factor 165:20 224:3

225:16 247:10

factors 213:3 224:2

242:2 245:5

factory 25:9

failed 75:21

fair 77:10 78:8

147:5,5 190:4,10

190:11 209:19

260:20

fairly 75:13 98:3

faith 208:6 209:1

fall 28:9 166:15

falls 92:18

familiar 248:3

families 236:22

fan 141:13 142:1,1

far 27:11 36:12

37:3,4 72:5,22

101:13 103:11

122:10 166:4,21

181:12 195:10

198:4 203:18

232:14 255:18

257:2 260:4

fashion 50:4

fast 25:13

fault 141:2

fear 28:1

feasible 205:10

feedback 45:6 84:3

feel 16:9 26:22 27:2

30:8,9,14,17

32:10 40:8 68:12

70:20 72:13 75:13

78:10 82:5 85:2

106:10 108:5

112:1 113:18

193:4 205:8

208:20 219:18

220:22 231:15

242:10

feeling 96:10

207:10

felt 55:2 222:8

FENSTROM 4:12

61:14 62:16 120:7

187:20 188:17

189:2 219:4

221:12 227:11

229:3,13,20

235:12 245:15

262:7 263:12

Fernstrom 1:17

72:18 73:11 74:21

80:20 81:16 86:6

88:8 89:14 90:4,6

90:12 92:10 93:22

97:7,16 99:18

103:12 106:7

107:12 108:12

112:5 114:18

115:17 116:11,17

117:19

field 80:8 82:5,14

84:3 87:9 94:21

100:4 149:19

155:13 219:7,10

238:15

fifteen 233:16

fifth 205:15

fifty-four 207:14

figure 29:2 74:7

87:21 99:6 105:11

185:22 235:9

254:8,13

file 90:13 168:5

204:2

filed 37:5 90:11

files 205:15 209:11

filing 16:1,8 79:17

90:14 204:2

fill 26:10 195:19,20

195:22 196:2

fills 30:4

final 6:20 22:15

33:22 62:5 210:4

210:8,11,12

finally 21:15

find 7:10 11:7

35:18 53:22 76:16

99:11 101:17

104:17 105:14

112:7 116:21

117:16 122:4,12

147:18 152:5

166:7 168:20

185:1 193:11

197:13 204:19

206:13 209:6

219:6 224:10,20

226:9 227:14

230:10 233:20

258:22

finding 185:14

213:13 219:13,22

259:2

finds 39:21 90:10

fine 4:5 31:11

36:14,17 37:9,22

52:19 56:19,20

59:19 62:19 87:13

88:2 108:9 141:8

155:5 230:13,14

250:9

finish 229:13

finished 140:18

144:8,9,11 148:10

fins 141:7

fire 90:19

firewalls 70:4

firm 103:6

first 6:13 22:13

29:8 46:5,15 47:2

47:12 49:5 70:17

91:6 95:12 154:9

167:5 175:6 198:3

201:1,3 204:7,17

209:6 211:8

214:11 229:2

248:19 251:10

252:14 253:16

261:4

firsthand 222:17

fit 142:16 152:5,12

fits 148:19

five 24:6 36:2,3

117:1 131:13

136:16 179:8

181:18,19 203:12

203:17 204:3,21

205:9,9,9,19,19

205:19 207:1,17

213:15 216:3

245:8 246:14

five-minute 35:7
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 276

five-year 203:2

204:10

fix 142:2

fixed 36:8,8,9

Fixes 47:18

flags 180:17

flesh 71:12

fleshing 72:13

flexibility 78:17,18

109:1,7 193:15

flexible 97:19

flip 204:5

floated 74:11,15

Florida 152:20

249:14 250:6,13

flow 184:2

focus 27:1 105:18

135:7 168:9 233:4

focused 134:2,15

167:15

focusing 96:2 220:3

folks 23:14 26:12

28:19 30:17 39:10

46:12 51:21 55:15

63:7,11,13 65:7

68:7 74:9,16 78:6

80:10 85:3 100:13

125:1,8 137:9

143:11,12 145:8

145:10 151:19

164:16 179:16,20

180:10 183:4

191:10 197:14

208:19 216:4

225:4 249:7 254:2

255:10 260:18

follow 63:17 71:11

72:9,15,17 77:2,7

79:6,7 94:20

217:8 229:3

follow-up 190:16

204:15

following 99:21

138:3 193:13

213:3 216:22

233:17

forays 250:5

force 96:3

foregoing 171:22

forget 164:6

forgot 198:19

form 20:13 90:10

211:15,22 212:9

formal 30:7,22

31:11

former 104:19

forms 209:2 211:12

238:18

Forty-eight 207:14

forward 19:2 31:1

78:7 207:13

223:20

found 5:2 96:15

102:15 170:6

172:14 190:20

214:14 225:4

228:2 235:7 258:5

four 24:21 140:17

203:14,15,17

204:21 207:17,17

216:3

fourth 46:6 47:4

205:15

fraction 189:7

frame 151:1 179:7

209:18 240:5

framework 50:13

frankly 55:12

223:1

free 5:4 54:9

friends 103:21

255:12

frivolous 222:6

frivolously 242:14

front 194:7

full 37:13 179:15

255:15,19

full-blown 14:15

fully 190:19

function 125:7

261:20 263:5

fundamental

215:13

funding 81:21 82:2

82:16 87:6 93:3

100:20 105:9

108:18 109:3

funds 104:5

furnace 126:4

130:8 132:12,14

133:6,6 134:8

138:6 139:12

140:2 141:17,19

142:1 144:13

152:17 153:16,20

154:11,17,21

155:2,3 160:12

188:11 206:3

furnaces 133:4

144:2,2 153:1,14

further 44:7 73:14

90:18 145:7 173:2

203:11 208:3

222:19 243:18

future 16:17 80:3

259:7

G

game 127:11

gap 30:4 171:2

175:21

gaps 26:10

garden 143:1,9

Gary 1:17 2:12

4:12 61:14 62:16

72:18 80:19,20

81:12,16 82:20

86:6 88:8 89:15

92:10,15 93:22

97:7 98:14 99:19

103:12 106:7,17

107:15 108:12

112:5 114:18

117:17,19 120:7

187:20 191:13

219:4 221:12

225:20 227:11

230:10,19 232:11

235:12 245:15

262:7,14 264:18

Gary's 88:16 92:19

95:1 113:20

190:16

gas 90:18 132:12

132:14 139:11

140:2 144:2

152:17 153:14,16

153:20 154:10,17

154:21

gauge 78:12

gazillion 229:7

geared 79:16

gears 134:11

gee 57:5 142:14,18

general 1:15 2:3

5:2 97:5 98:16

113:3 210:7,19

236:21 242:21

261:5

generalize 103:20

generally 51:2

94:18

generate 84:12

germane 140:16

getting 77:19,20

91:6,15 93:13

95:22 99:3,4

118:14 154:20

175:6 191:12

193:17 227:2

258:19

Gibbons 1:18 6:19

44:11 51:1

give 15:5,22 22:2

30:3,12 35:9 36:3

65:6 81:14 84:3

106:14 107:17

108:2 129:19

131:11 133:15

161:4 164:1

169:15 174:12

178:8 182:9 207:3

208:8,11 226:12

230:21 240:7,16

given 28:9 35:19

89:9 100:19 101:8

103:11 108:14

123:15 134:2

148:16 176:8

189:20 191:21

193:4 205:5,19

208:12 221:14

256:8

gives 11:3 109:1,7

109:7 152:10

243:12 244:13

246:22

giving 6:20 40:16

214:1 234:6 241:1

Global 2:12

go 5:16 9:2,6 11:6

17:2,15 21:5

26:12 31:6 33:18

38:4 41:1 43:4

44:1 48:7,10,13

52:20 62:2,21

63:9 65:12 76:2

79:13 91:8,21

92:6,7 95:8

100:13,22 102:10

105:6 112:6 113:3

114:20 115:10

116:4,6 117:9

120:2 133:20

136:16 137:5,14

145:10 155:18

156:18 159:20

161:3 162:4

163:16 169:9

173:6 176:22

183:12,14 188:1

194:7 195:14

196:17 197:13

199:16 200:9

201:2 203:11,18

207:13 208:3

209:13 210:6

212:12 216:1,11

217:8 218:6,12

222:11,19 223:19

224:14 225:1,4

226:5,15 228:2,15

229:8 230:20

231:21 232:2,4,15

233:11,14 235:8

235:14 239:15
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 277

240:15 242:22

243:18 247:21

257:7

goal 96:17 152:12

goes 72:6 94:12

136:17 150:1

182:5 187:15

201:17 210:8

246:1 249:5

260:13

going 3:5,8 6:18

9:6,11,12,15,15

12:5 15:20 19:6

21:10,13 22:2,8,9

22:11,12 24:17,18

25:4,14,16 26:2

31:6,7 33:12

34:10 35:22 37:15

40:22 43:3,4,4,6,6

44:22 45:7,8,12

45:17 46:3 48:5

49:13 52:16 53:10

53:15,16 54:6

56:10 59:7,8 61:5

62:7 63:4,5,7,10

65:18 68:5,17

69:18 71:3,19,20

72:1,8,16 73:3,7

73:22 74:1 75:15

76:4,8,14,16,18

77:1 79:2,9,13

81:9 83:7 84:4,21

85:22 86:22 87:8

87:17 88:13 90:18

91:8,18,20 92:2

99:7,12 101:2,11

104:13 105:8

107:19,19,20,21

107:22 108:1,5,10

112:20 113:21

114:9,13 115:4

116:5 117:21

118:13,21 119:19

119:19,20 122:9

122:11 123:21

124:17 129:4,17

129:19,20 130:7

132:13 135:6,11

135:20,21 138:1

139:22 140:2,3

142:8,9,15 143:7

143:10,12 147:18

147:19 148:20

149:2,3,8,9,10,22

151:4 152:4,13

153:17,18,19

154:10 161:11

163:2 165:15

166:6,8,9,10,15

166:19 167:22

168:2,19 169:8,9

171:12,19 173:6

173:21 174:9,21

175:2,5,11,17

177:2,4,9,14

178:5 179:8,9

181:8 185:4,17,18

185:19 187:3,5,14

189:3,6,10,11,17

190:7,9 192:18

194:13,17,20

197:13 198:9

199:10,12 200:12

201:1,2,4,4,7

202:7 203:7 204:8

204:16 205:7,11

206:10,21 209:12

209:12 210:2,4,15

212:18 213:4,5,18

213:19 214:7

215:4,11,13 216:5

218:1 219:7,19

221:17 222:21

223:14,18,19,22

224:1,3 225:20,21

226:7 228:10

230:13,15,15

232:14 237:6

239:15 240:19,22

242:4,7,8,9,17,19

244:18 245:9,19

246:3,12,13

247:10,12 249:13

250:1,18 251:11

251:16 254:5

255:17,17 256:14

256:16,16 257:10

261:7,20 263:6

goings 196:5

golly 245:22

good 8:2,3 25:8

30:22 106:22

116:11 143:14

162:21 179:1

192:13 207:2

208:4,6 209:1

213:1,12,18,22,22

214:1,5 215:15

234:1,2 241:5

245:1 250:21

264:13 265:3

Goodman 2:4,12

46:15 79:21 202:1

goods 140:18

gosh 253:4

gotten 45:6 169:16

196:13 197:19

236:4

gov 65:10

grabbed 138:20

grace 176:16

grant 208:6

great 18:5 35:4

49:18 69:14 91:2

127:14 178:13

greater 96:5

219:20

grocery 10:19

ground 36:11

82:13 92:21

group 1:3 16:18

62:2,3 83:8,11

93:8 103:20

116:20 118:4

119:16 207:11

groups 4:17 91:14

175:17

GSES 149:12

guarantee 81:13

118:7

guess 3:16 18:10

19:16 25:3 30:18

56:3,9 60:10 64:9

65:5 83:13 85:6

88:17 106:14

123:18 136:9

137:13 138:7

141:4,13 142:17

146:10 151:14

156:10 157:14

161:15 165:2,11

165:15 168:12

170:15 175:5

179:4 182:17

193:12 201:11,14

202:2 209:21

216:22 218:11

220:17 235:5

249:2 256:8

guessing 22:1

260:18

guidance 6:20,20

21:15 28:10 30:5

30:12 31:9,12,15

33:1,7,20 34:2

35:9,11 36:17

41:5,11,14,15

44:6 45:1,6 251:8

Guide 241:16

guilt 89:22

guy 14:13 28:3 57:5

58:11 118:12

150:17 168:17

169:3 170:10

183:1 194:12

196:22 200:13

205:10 208:4

213:2 214:4 216:4

216:8 235:9

249:12

guy's 216:1

guys 24:5,15 30:6

56:6 64:10 65:15

68:20 77:10 85:20

98:11 156:19

179:11 181:3,16

183:19 184:8

192:14 200:11

207:3 213:13

214:12 261:7

264:8

H

half 143:1 168:7

196:19 203:15

207:17

hand 21:2 87:7

220:13 221:19

handicap 219:1

handle 24:2 254:2

254:14 257:10

260:3 261:3,7

handler 123:9

126:7 130:8 134:8

153:5,10,12

160:10,11 162:7,9

162:14 163:3

handlers 152:22

handling 138:5

hands 23:10

hang 72:1

happen 22:13

174:21 175:7

204:16 205:7

229:2 252:19

happened 75:14

191:13 216:19

217:7 218:10

220:19 221:1

223:1 240:21

241:5 242:16

happening 186:1

happens 89:11

142:16 151:12

175:19

happy 57:20 89:15

106:13 114:21

hard 73:16 93:1

99:1 116:6 141:12

193:22 196:18

197:9 262:15

HARDI 1:20 12:15

15:15 27:8 69:2

69:18 94:22 115:7

171:7 173:19

175:16 188:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 278

192:2 198:18

211:11 243:4

248:17 255:12

Harvey 2:5 4:7,13

5:3 7:5 13:4

15:11,14,16 48:14

53:21 55:7 57:4

59:21,22 67:2

105:16 119:22

133:11 136:1

137:21 138:8

160:5 167:6

168:13 191:7

205:1 206:1

210:22 213:9

214:9,10 235:17

238:7,12 250:11

Harvey's 176:3

Harvey-spills

48:15

hashed 248:2

hate 249:18

haystack 229:6

He'll 174:12,13

head 25:5

heads 35:7 202:3

hear 3:6 17:22

28:16 85:11,16

97:11 98:12

106:17 137:7,13

156:18 164:19

179:7 184:8 207:5

212:10 230:11

264:8,18

heard 13:4 29:12

31:10 39:9 40:3

58:16 86:14 103:5

103:15 163:8

182:17 199:2

200:4,19 205:9

222:5 232:16

hearing 14:18

39:13 57:4 110:2

151:18 159:1

163:1 167:7,7

191:8,19 197:3

217:13

heat 127:3,5 132:21

139:17,18,21

141:5 153:1,10,11

154:3

Heating 2:6,10

182:22

heck 176:5 235:10

held 254:10

Hello 264:7

help 5:7 9:21,22

26:14 78:15 84:1

84:7,12 85:19,21

86:4 96:9,21

127:13 135:11,15

150:7 162:12

194:4 196:11

231:6 241:2 242:6

helped 143:16

helpful 19:20 35:18

79:20 102:18

162:4 163:5

168:22 179:20

209:2 237:11

helping 32:11

205:20

helps 141:16

hero 32:11

hey 47:10 62:3 68:4

145:8 151:20

200:10 213:1

231:10 239:5,7

251:10

hi 98:11 194:7,8

high 87:1

higher 94:4

highest 24:17 41:21

42:4,16

highly 146:13

hinges 31:9

hired 56:14

hires 57:8

historically 10:15

history 211:1

213:10 247:7,11

hit 12:4,9 198:16

212:14 218:2

hits 255:5

hoe 105:19,22

hold 25:13 65:21

226:1

holding 95:5

home 10:18 22:10

84:17 89:16 99:21

102:7,9 137:18

180:3,7

homeowner 94:13

118:5,7,14 170:13

244:12 249:14

homeowner's

149:21

homeowners 94:7

110:16

homes 80:22 102:6

104:1 106:8,13,19

110:15 117:13

180:13 229:7

homework 17:15

167:2 197:10

honest 90:7

honestly 246:17

hook 89:8,11

141:17 174:22

250:5

hope 108:14 116:21

129:9

hopefully 18:19

248:3

hoping 81:20

117:21 163:5

189:4,5

host 67:20

Hosted 67:18

hotel 67:20

hour 3:17 5:13

hours 264:3

house 130:15,17

131:2 134:18

163:18 170:6

171:5 196:8

215:21 216:6

244:10,11 249:15

261:17

houses 194:5

housing 61:3

Houston 182:3

HSVC 44:15

hub 230:14

Hudson 250:14

huge 19:1 22:6

28:14

humidity 136:2

humongous 57:6,7

57:12

hundreds 239:5

hung 87:15 88:4

112:3

Hungerford 2:14

95:18 97:8 98:11

98:14 100:5 184:7

184:8,10 185:10

185:12 190:15

229:5 236:3 264:7

264:10,20

Hungerford's

219:15

Hurst 1:18 10:5,7

16:13,22,22 23:22

23:22 24:12 25:6

35:4,13,15 36:2

37:21 89:19,19

90:5,9 93:16

104:8,8 105:17

108:17,17 109:6

115:14 203:10,20

204:12

hurt 58:8

HVAC 50:11 57:7

104:21

hypotheticals

122:14

I

idea 20:13 29:15

33:10 47:11 71:7

74:10,11,15 88:16

98:16 99:2 101:3

101:12 102:19

103:17 113:3

165:1 184:12,17

185:17 203:5,19

234:1 247:14

ideas 29:5 55:6

101:13 105:13

107:1 227:9 241:1

identifiable 15:3

identification

180:19

identified 28:5

identifies 238:11

identifying 86:21

illegal 22:12 229:18

229:21 230:2

232:11 233:10

234:18

illegally 92:1

224:17

imagine 17:10

60:12 188:1

209:22 210:10,11

immediate 16:16

178:16

immediately 181:6

186:12 249:13

impact 8:5,6,6

102:13 173:15

impacts 33:6

implement 16:14

16:21 94:3 99:15

176:6 178:6 246:4

implementation

111:19 175:7

192:1 193:14

implemented 13:20

27:19 181:10,13

implementing

16:15

implements 181:6

implies 121:4

importance 53:17

important 8:10

18:2 47:7 94:14

95:19 96:17,17

97:18 114:7

116:19 191:15

238:19

impossible 96:11

145:11

impression 7:1

144:7 253:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 279

improper 90:20

improperly 144:15

inability 100:17

include 56:17

127:8 133:16

140:12 141:13,22

153:4 155:11

160:11 172:11

215:8

included 53:2 63:5

includes 138:4

including 84:22

168:2 179:14

income 90:7,10,13

inconsequential

188:8

incorporated 54:3

196:10 197:8

incorrectly 11:19

increases 128:20

157:4

increasing 203:10

incredible 72:11

incredibly 169:2

incumbent 93:8

indentured 247:17

Independence 1:10

independent

125:12 130:1

indicate 48:3,8

49:9 76:20 123:1

236:4,18 237:17

243:15

indicates 243:12

indicating 123:6

237:19

indication 224:17

229:22 232:15

240:21

indicative 94:18

indicator 221:1

255:4

indirectly 65:4

85:20

individual 10:21

15:8 53:7 56:13

99:21 144:10

220:4,6 249:7,10

252:1

individual's 95:20

179:15

individually 50:3

individuals 180:7

indoor 123:4,6,8,16

123:19 124:1,3,8

124:9,12,16 125:1

125:10,19,22

127:1,6,6,21

129:14,22 130:21

131:3,5,8,8,10,18

131:22 132:2,3,7

132:11,15,16,19

132:22 133:1

134:7 135:4,20

136:11,18 137:15

137:16,19 138:3,8

138:9,11,11 139:1

139:15,19 140:11

142:7 144:15,16

144:18 145:1,4

146:6 148:1,3

149:11,16,20

150:1 151:11,16

151:17 152:19

154:9,12,15 155:5

155:10 156:9,10

156:17 157:1,10

157:13,18 159:9

159:16,17,21

160:1,8,12,20,21

162:6,22 172:22

198:4 202:7 252:5

260:20 263:7

indoor-outdoor

146:8

indoor/outdoor

260:16

industry 12:16

33:2 91:20 95:16

96:10 103:16,22

176:5 245:17

industry-wide

223:7

inexpensive 13:7

98:6

inflexible 78:19

inform 228:7

informal 115:3

informant 213:12

213:12,15

information 8:22

10:12 11:1 12:12

15:3,6,7 20:18

21:3 22:3,10

49:18 63:4,6,13

64:16 65:12 70:5

71:19,21 77:19

78:3,14 79:12

85:18 101:17,20

102:20 122:6

129:5 134:17

155:4 157:7

171:13 176:2

177:5,12 179:18

180:4 184:5,19

189:14 192:6,7,13

192:15 193:7,16

197:19 198:16

224:9 226:9

231:12 259:12

informative 89:8

informed 175:11

Ingersoll 1:16 60:9

ingredients 15:12

16:5

initially 29:4

125:20,22

innards 137:16

inner-city 18:4

insert 62:5

insertion 34:1

inside 134:11,17

148:11 153:9

insignificant 11:21

inspected 87:2,3

inspection 228:11

246:2

inspections 83:19

inspectors 84:17,18

85:10 86:20

install 23:13 44:1

56:15 59:3,3

121:21 135:8

148:19 160:2

161:12 170:3

206:2 215:21

216:5,9 229:1

233:10,13 235:1

238:9 248:22

249:14 251:11

253:1

installation 22:12

22:14 51:11,16

52:5,12 60:6

121:17 122:4

164:10 167:18

171:15 197:1

204:17 215:5,9,10

216:7 218:10

219:21 220:1

225:3 228:2,7

234:19 241:18

244:14 252:12

253:21

installations 56:12

84:5 87:2 90:21

98:7 104:2,22

121:6,12,15

139:13 140:1

161:18 172:15

199:3 228:8

installed 8:18

22:22 23:4 24:20

29:22 61:5 81:5

92:1 108:22

117:14 122:4,8,16

130:9 135:14,14

144:14 145:4

150:21 152:16,22

153:10,12,13,22

155:15 159:8

169:17,20 170:2

170:11,14 172:12

215:22 216:2

224:11,17,18

232:1,2 234:2,14

235:11 251:2

252:15 253:5,22

257:2 259:20

260:1 263:18

installer 23:2 51:5

53:6,9,12,18,22

54:3,19,22 55:6

55:10 57:11,22

58:7,13,19 59:5

59:11 60:4 102:9

185:15

installing 24:16

102:4 128:15,16

213:16 243:9

251:19 252:3

254:11

installs 23:2 53:6

57:17 59:12

168:16 233:7

instance 87:10

224:8 225:1

instances 224:10

instinct 193:12

instinctively

193:15

Institute 2:6,11

instructed 67:12

120:2

insufficient 178:19

179:4

intend 233:12

259:6

intended 54:8

intent 95:1 130:10

131:18 148:4

214:20 221:4

263:13

interact 133:4

interchangeably

124:6

interest 220:3

interested 14:5,18

196:20

interject 230:9

internal 95:21

191:1 192:21

internally 45:20

52:18 64:18 70:7

259:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 280

International 1:18

internet 77:5 249:9

249:12,19 250:2

interpret 37:16

interpretation

29:11,14 58:9

interpreting

113:10

interrupt 242:14

inundated 239:1

inventory 25:10

94:17 95:3,5

176:18 186:21

232:7 251:15

255:19 256:17

257:10

investigate 71:14

79:3 113:4 220:15

investigated 80:7

227:15

investigating 71:7

102:3 221:6 227:2

227:9

investigation 9:22

15:19 71:2 72:20

73:1,10,14 77:8

102:10 108:19

168:9 171:3

179:19 232:21

235:6 258:12

investigations 10:1

73:4 101:1

investigative 230:9

Investment 1:17

invite 84:17 85:8

85:10

invoice 178:4

189:11,13,15,20

196:10 209:6

212:3

invoiced 177:5

189:9 190:6,22

192:11 202:16

invoices 189:22

212:4

invoicing 191:20

IOU 72:19

IOUs 61:15

issue 14:21 42:15

42:22 46:13 87:16

136:4 147:14

149:19,19 160:6

172:22 178:15

185:17 187:3,11

199:10 225:10

226:22 247:5

251:4 253:15

256:13,14 257:20

issued 41:15 45:1,5

189:12

issues 3:18 8:5,12

19:22 22:20 26:17

26:20 27:6 58:10

85:21 116:16

137:1 169:13

203:2 247:18

250:17

it'd 67:6

item 39:13 125:4

items 52:10 245:8

J

jack 194:19

January 12:5 174:1

187:2 210:2,11

231:20 232:3

235:20

job 87:20 88:9,11

105:21 112:2

114:3,9 137:15

193:8,9

jobs 152:11 216:10

Joe 193:19

John 1:18,18 10:6

16:13,22 23:22

36:8 44:10,11

46:10 51:1 69:1

89:19 104:8

108:17 203:10

John's 14:5 63:11

175:22

Johnson 2:4 236:8

join 171:21

joints 93:7

Jon 1:20 12:15 14:5

15:14 17:17 18:2

18:11 27:8 28:17

94:22 115:7 171:7

173:8,18 177:16

188:15 190:4

192:2 197:12

198:17 210:13

211:10 243:3

248:17 253:6

255:11

Jon's 239:15

252:21

Jordan 1:16 60:8

70:19 95:9 97:17

113:8 220:16

Jordan's 99:21

108:15

judicious 223:15

July 186:19 232:2

235:21

jump 28:20 162:19

202:22 211:7

260:11,12

jumped 213:9

June 231:21

junkyard 193:10

K

Karen 1:21 17:19

21:6 22:17 27:9

30:18 31:17 32:1

32:12 36:8 38:19

41:7 47:1 59:15

67:16 90:17

117:15,20 128:18

129:8 152:14

205:13 234:9

235:5 237:15

243:7,8 244:9

Karen's 29:10

243:6 244:4,17,17

244:19

Karim 2:10 37:16

44:2 130:19

131:15 136:8

143:6 146:11

156:21 157:9

158:5 259:5

keep 15:2 18:22

20:16,19,19 23:19

26:1 32:6 35:22

42:8 58:6,10

116:9 121:20

122:16 128:3,17

131:12 132:12

133:6 145:18,21

149:17 154:16

155:7 159:16,22

159:22 165:7

166:17 167:16,17

169:4 173:13,14

199:7 201:9,13

202:14 206:9

212:4 237:6

keeping 8:15 9:9

10:2 13:8,20 14:8

20:5,6,14 105:18

128:21 129:3

150:5 154:7

164:22 189:22

217:19

keeps 259:2

kept 165:20,21

187:21 189:16

key 11:3 18:15

22:14 239:15

keying 239:14

kicks 174:1

kill 119:2

kind 16:2 18:10

22:1 25:1,4 26:6,7

26:13,15,22 28:11

29:2,7 71:15 84:6

85:15 86:5 88:11

90:6 94:13 99:15

140:16 143:14,22

151:6 164:5,13

169:7,11 170:22

173:12 177:17

179:6,7 187:10

208:17 218:2

223:20 228:4

235:13 240:2,19

241:1,2 242:5,21

243:10 247:13

249:1 257:16,18

kinds 15:3,10 21:1

84:4 237:18

knew 104:22

254:11

knock 36:3 201:5

know 6:7,11 11:4

16:19 17:1,4

20:10,11,15 23:14

26:1 28:7 29:3

30:22 31:18 32:7

37:6 41:5,9 43:22

46:10,11 58:3

60:14,16 62:6

63:18 65:7,9

67:11 68:11 70:5

76:4 79:9 81:9

85:1,7 86:10 95:6

97:22 104:6,9

107:3,4 109:21

114:19,20 117:2

117:10 118:20

119:6 125:21

127:19 129:7,11

135:13 136:4,22

139:13 142:2,4

143:15 144:4

145:10 150:19

154:14 155:12

157:8,11 158:2

165:13,14 166:7

166:13,18,20

169:21 170:19

175:3,13,13

176:14 177:3,10

179:12,13,20

180:1,2,16 182:21

183:16,21 184:1

184:10,13 185:13

185:16 189:10

190:12 191:4

192:21,22 193:1

194:12,16,19

195:15,18 198:3

199:8,14 200:5,20

200:21 201:12

202:3,17 203:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 281

203:17 204:5,15

204:18 207:12

208:12 209:10

210:4 211:15

218:7,9 220:11

221:5,8,11 224:18

226:7,21 234:3

235:11 239:3,18

239:18 240:1,20

241:3 243:13,22

245:2 246:11,21

249:20 250:2,3,7

250:8 254:1,5,7

255:8,10 257:5

258:4,7,9,21

259:9,9 261:19

262:1,18 264:11

knowing 127:21

174:1 180:1

201:16 228:22

258:8

knowingly 57:9

234:21 248:19

254:11

knowledge 22:11

175:22 176:10

194:1 228:22

234:22 248:21

known 87:10 255:5

knows 77:21

118:12 249:12

253:7

L

label 64:6 66:2

241:16

labeled 8:21 168:10

labeling 64:3 166:2

labels 6:10 7:3 64:2

LAC 97:21

lack 32:9

language 33:2,6

34:8,22 45:15

47:6,7 55:19 72:5

81:12 83:1,3,9

89:3 92:13 93:1

100:14 103:4,7

106:4,6,16,18

107:3 111:15

112:8,10,12 113:5

113:15 114:11

115:3 116:21

117:10 118:16

119:6 120:5

125:17 138:2,17

200:18 201:15

202:20 208:22

250:19

large 15:20 51:12

91:9 99:15 186:6

232:17

larger 137:10

late 51:10

latest 184:11

latitude 104:15

Lattanzi 1:19 38:19

39:1 40:6,7,14

46:20 49:7,7

122:20,21 162:1,2

162:21 256:2

258:11,15 260:6

laughing 259:2

Laughter 6:4

117:18 118:1

122:19

Laura 1:15 2:13

5:18 121:14

law 91:21 187:15

213:11

laws 82:10

lawyer 37:8 55:8

lawyers 50:16 62:2

109:18

layer 46:7

leads 84:12 171:14

leaking 151:20

learn 258:14,15

leave 104:15

105:10 109:6

119:8 121:9

127:15

leaves 118:18

leaving 38:7 58:18

92:16 104:2

106:13

left 23:9 227:16

legal 186:21 188:18

231:22 232:10

236:16

legally 234:14

legislation 176:11

legitimate 16:6

205:18

legs 200:9

length 22:19 49:18

Lennox 1:18 10:7,9

17:1 24:1 89:20

104:9 108:18

251:14

lesser 133:19

let's 3:3 4:6 7:13

32:16 36:2 71:9

107:1 112:5

115:14 116:2

117:1 127:14,15

127:15 136:14

145:10 156:14

157:20 158:3,4

169:5 207:2,3,21

208:3,5 236:14,15

245:7 247:21

level 82:5 87:1,18

89:16 94:13,13

99:21 104:3

124:11,19 132:5

132:10 166:10

186:13 206:14,15

219:14,21,22

220:1,8 228:5,12

263:5

levels 147:10

license 14:13

licenses 15:22

life 22:21 104:19

160:15 196:11

likelihood 83:6

95:21 96:6 241:5

likes 32:10

limit 108:18,19

109:2 140:15

164:20 246:5

limitation 10:13

111:15 121:11

204:10

limitations 35:19

150:20 221:15

limited 12:21 21:17

22:6 72:21 73:8

87:21 94:16 105:9

110:8 161:12

limiting 119:20

165:5

Lincoln 1:16 20:3

line 33:20 89:12

97:11 134:19

162:11 165:10

171:10 182:11

183:16 197:13

203:6 210:15,20

211:1 218:16

219:17 220:9

240:11,15

lines 51:18 52:13

52:17 88:12 110:5

182:8

link 63:17 64:19

65:11 102:2,7,8

linked 89:5

list 93:19 225:11,15

226:11 227:6

listed 43:10 70:21

213:3

listen 213:1

listened 157:21

listening 264:11

265:2

literally 225:15

little 11:3 12:4

17:15 22:19 42:18

77:3,5 83:15 93:2

99:19 100:2 122:2

122:22 125:6

166:2 167:3 169:9

173:19 179:1

185:1 190:16

195:3 196:7

205:17 225:19

226:12 233:2

244:12,16 259:3

263:14

live 31:15 67:10

138:16

lives 60:21

lo 143:4

load 153:2 174:14

loaded 194:5

local 10:19 85:8,9,9

85:10

locally 190:8

located 230:12

locations 181:20

182:2 232:6

locked 199:22

200:3 207:6

locker 205:16

lockers 205:14

206:10

logical 23:15 255:9

logistical 69:8

long 3:11 7:11

20:12 21:12 28:19

37:11 43:13 106:1

129:16 147:2

178:9 193:1

231:15 232:1

239:16 253:1

259:20

longer 3:22 24:22

25:13,19 32:5

106:21 179:2

209:17 254:6,17

256:15,18

longest 217:22

look 19:16,19 29:8

42:21 43:6 45:7

47:22 55:15,18

71:17 73:9 74:6

74:14 76:18 77:2

82:11,12 92:20

94:8 101:22

107:16,20 118:10

141:3 155:9

156:17 158:16

165:15 168:15

170:22 204:9

206:6 213:2 216:1
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 282

219:8 220:7 223:4

223:12 224:1

226:8 228:2 231:1

242:2,21 245:7

250:15 262:15

looked 29:4 210:21

looking 9:4 30:18

64:17 75:5,8

78:11 82:14 84:9

122:10 132:18

147:8 152:9 156:1

162:12 163:9,9

168:14 172:9

174:4 219:12

220:17 221:10

223:10 225:15

230:10 240:22

241:3 256:20

looks 6:15 14:17

48:18 197:6

217:21

loosely 175:16

lose 181:8

losing 17:8

lost 106:1

lot 10:16 12:5 15:8

18:13 19:12 21:1

26:4 27:3,9 28:3

31:1 64:21 76:4

79:3 86:10,17

92:2 95:16 96:2

96:22 102:9 108:2

124:2 125:1

126:19 129:5

140:14 166:7,18

168:1 175:12,15

176:5,20 177:3

180:10 181:11

182:5 183:19

186:17 193:14,15

194:4 195:11

204:3 206:9,16

208:12 209:4,17

216:9 221:6,6

222:2 223:4,18

229:10 230:12

231:11 240:12

245:4 247:12

251:6

lots 194:5

loud 19:19 86:5

loudly 31:19

low 17:6,6 86:14

91:16 153:1

Lowe's 10:18

lower 147:16,20

lower-functioning

263:7

lukewarm 102:21

lunch 28:22 29:1

30:20 35:11 41:1

46:22 65:17,22

66:15 178:15

203:4

lying 235:8

M

mailbox 77:17

mailing 10:22

main 133:2

Maine 200:12,15

maintain 24:6,7

25:19 199:1 238:1

maintaining 95:5

185:3,8

major 26:17 29:7

50:5 74:3,15

99:12 123:22

125:9 181:19

195:9

majority 91:19

152:15,21 206:20

making 14:1 39:8

68:21 69:7 87:6

110:9 126:18

162:15 163:3

208:6 221:19

232:11 236:1

253:6

manages 60:22

mandate 87:16

88:5

mandatory 192:16

manufacture 236:8

237:19

manufactured 12:6

22:22 23:8 24:21

187:1

manufacturer 23:6

23:10,12 24:7

25:18 43:2 45:22

85:1 123:2,4

124:15 125:10,11

125:12 129:14

130:1 131:12

135:16,18 136:6

145:3,22 146:11

165:16 192:17

195:9 198:9 202:5

202:14 203:13

217:3,9,11 218:13

219:20 226:1

228:11,16,20

237:1 240:4,15

252:20 253:11

254:15 255:12

258:1,4

manufacturer's

67:17 218:18

227:21

manufacturers

3:19 4:11 7:2 8:5

8:20 17:17 24:4

51:3 64:2,10

68:18 75:17 82:12

162:3,13,18

166:19 198:1

201:21 203:21

215:7 216:17

217:18,20,21

218:6 219:9

222:12 224:6

235:20 237:4

254:13 256:7,16

257:9 259:17

260:2 261:2

manufactures

206:14

Manufacturing

1:21 2:4

marching 145:6

market 21:22

53:15 255:20

marketer 105:2

marketplace

253:13

mass 79:12

match 124:13

142:12 146:15,20

151:2 251:13,16

matched 136:20,21

142:11 147:11

162:10

matches 43:8 147:3

150:3

materials 64:21

Matt 38:19 40:6,10

49:7 122:20 162:1

264:4

matter 7:16 13:6

36:5 60:11 65:3

66:18 88:7 115:18

117:4 121:22

171:22 235:21

265:7

matters 60:17

MATTHEW 1:19

McCRUDDEN

1:19 3:15 4:18

5:8 8:1 52:21

53:5 69:17 70:2

70:11 75:4 77:14

79:20 110:10

111:7,13,20 117:8

118:2 120:15

121:2 163:7

164:17 165:11,18

172:5 182:22

205:22 209:20

211:19 228:14

229:12,17 248:5

253:9 254:3

257:19 258:20

mean 6:16 14:10,11

14:15 30:15 33:13

33:15 34:9 37:12

38:13,13 55:5,12

56:5 82:10 92:4

104:11 111:9

112:13,16 113:10

122:15 126:5

127:17 129:3

131:16 136:9,12

137:17 140:4,5

144:9 145:20

147:14 149:2,7

151:1 154:10,15

154:18 155:4,9,11

155:13,16,17

158:2 160:11

165:17 168:12

170:15,20 171:4

179:8 190:8

200:22 206:1

208:5 210:1

217:15 220:21

225:7,10 234:4

239:12 240:10

244:6 246:17

255:8

meaning 53:19

138:20

means 14:9 35:1

47:12 50:14 58:14

138:3 139:16

212:17 214:9

245:3 249:16

meant 36:18 42:16

69:13

measure 86:13

111:4 113:7

119:11

measures 108:21

109:4,5,9 110:13

111:9 112:11

113:11

mechanism 91:7

mechanisms 90:20

91:3 96:14

meet 3:6 4:3 8:3

36:21 100:14

103:21 104:7

125:13 129:17

217:4

meeting 1:5,10,11

1:13 4:3 22:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 283

116:3,4,9 198:11

222:3 252:17

meetings 42:10

68:6 86:12 124:6

meets 148:18 207:1

231:15 240:11

260:17

Melchi 1:20 12:15

15:14 18:3 27:8

69:1 94:22 115:7

171:7 173:8,10,18

173:18 178:1,12

179:12 180:9,14

180:16 188:15,15

188:18 190:4,13

192:2 197:21

198:17 201:18

210:14 211:10

243:3 248:17

249:17,21 250:9

255:11,11 256:8

member 158:9

179:13 199:9

members 3:7 18:22

69:2 70:1,4 98:1

150:12 173:22

174:17,20 175:14

175:16 177:9

192:3 243:5

248:18 249:18

256:11

memory 78:6

mentioned 3:5

16:13 29:9 51:1

53:11 54:17 67:22

68:17 79:22

merely 53:11

212:21

mess 222:6

message 59:13

77:17 85:16

met 1:10 22:15

71:16 98:7 215:16

metering 141:8

143:18

meth 13:11

method 23:15 99:5

189:14

methods 74:7

78:13

metro 250:4

Mexico 230:14

MEYERS 1:21

17:19 21:6 30:19

31:5,20 32:7

33:14 36:9 37:22

38:9 39:5 40:4

42:14 44:9 47:1

59:15 67:16 68:10

69:10,15 90:17

91:12 132:11

133:8 139:2,8,11

139:20 140:9

145:14 146:4

152:14 155:8,22

156:4,7 157:3

159:12 161:7

234:9,17 235:3

237:12 238:21

241:11 263:15

microphone 3:14

mimic 173:13

mind 4:13 6:7 15:2

19:1 30:4 32:6

84:16,21 114:8

116:10 122:17

165:21 178:17

203:19 214:19

mine 6:6

minimal 133:14

minimizing 9:19

minimum 123:14

152:8 166:4

188:12 237:7

257:15

Minnesota 9:10

minority 82:4

minutes 7:11 36:2

36:3 115:15,16

117:2 174:18

mis-rated 8:21

misleading 262:17

misread 214:16

mission 36:15

mistake 168:18,20

mistakes 126:14

mitigate 8:21

mitigated 12:3

mitigation 172:14

mix 168:2 251:13

mode 127:7 133:1

140:11 155:17

model 29:16,20

75:21 76:1 123:2

123:5 129:12,13

131:12 132:12

144:18 145:3,22

153:6,7 158:9,11

191:2 192:17

236:4,14,17,20,22

237:4,9 239:6,14

239:15 240:11

251:14

models 75:18,18

235:22 237:1

modifications

211:15

modify 16:8 259:7

moldy 205:17

moment 30:6 40:18

45:19 46:8 81:15

89:9 103:10 141:3

163:15

money 81:9 84:8,9

91:13 92:2

month 149:16

152:11

months 23:9 25:11

25:17 149:21

150:16,18 187:6

187:15 204:17

207:15

morning 6:13,14

27:7 120:22

123:12 167:5

173:20 265:4

Mortex 137:9

mother-in-law

174:7

motor 133:17,20

140:3 141:20

193:21

move 47:18 112:4

115:20 171:5

172:6 246:7 247:3

moved 191:9

205:12

mover 126:7

139:12

moving 31:1 78:7

127:8 133:2,17,19

144:4

muddy 45:14

multiple 31:18

80:21 147:10

181:3 199:6,20

215:18

multiplying 27:14

mute 264:13

mutual 70:10

MYERS 117:15

128:18

N

name 21:2 179:15

183:17 189:19

190:22 195:17

196:9 225:13

narrowing 27:1

national 2:7 8:16

nationally 199:2

nationwide 200:1

Natural 2:2

nature 89:13

Navigant 2:13

near 160:14 212:21

Nebraska 231:6

nebulous 53:18

nebulousness 77:12

necessarily 14:15

28:8 34:5 41:9

60:20 89:4,16

95:3,7,15 96:19

98:20 177:8 180:3

192:10 217:10

218:8 226:4

necessary 16:9

41:18 45:10 54:15

55:13 67:19,21

82:6,7 110:7

114:17 151:5

192:5

necessity 13:21

need 3:12 4:13

11:19 18:19 19:5

20:7 21:7 22:3,4

22:15 24:19,22

26:15 28:5 29:1

30:21 35:7 37:5

38:4 40:7,19

41:16 44:7,20

46:11,20 55:22

56:6,6,9,21 57:11

61:17 65:12,15

70:9,20 73:5

77:19,21 97:2

100:14 104:15

105:10 108:6

114:1 115:13

116:8 117:2

118:20 119:6

121:20 123:15

129:5,18 134:19

136:18 153:4

157:8 159:16

160:17 161:16

163:21 166:1,13

172:16 174:11

175:1,4,5 176:15

177:18 178:9

179:9 195:12

197:5 199:1

200:17 201:14

208:7,9,15 209:17

220:18,22 221:21

227:18 237:22

243:17 247:1

251:18

needed 69:9 89:18

186:12 197:5

221:18

needing 94:5

needle 229:6

needs 14:11,20

20:6 21:14,17

22:5 31:5 92:20
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 284

94:19 99:5 100:15

103:21 119:16

166:22 210:20

222:10 251:18

neg 32:8

negative 252:10

negatively 163:1

negotiated 19:3

negotiation 74:4

neighborhoods

92:8 104:21 105:4

Neil 1:11,13 20:2

21:6 32:13 198:17

Neil's 243:10

never 9:10 23:14

89:11 122:17

183:2 199:10

201:4,7 253:16

new 33:20 36:11

98:2 142:11

147:17 150:4,4

154:18 198:16

199:9 209:2

211:12,15 236:5

236:15 237:5

249:22 250:3

news 254:22

nice 151:1 204:22

night 51:10 116:14

250:21

nine 66:22

nodding 202:3

NOLL 2:2 63:22

88:15 91:1

non-compliance

87:11

non-compliant

76:1 86:21 101:5

101:15 102:4,8

108:22 122:3

169:17 171:4

172:16 213:17

259:21,22

non-condensing

206:3

non-frivolous

76:11

non-members 70:4

non-productive

82:18

noncompliant

117:14

Nordyne 1:19 49:8

122:21 162:2

normally 189:8

north 9:5 121:4

169:21 171:10,15

230:16 254:1

256:20 257:11

northern 236:11

note 13:6 23:1

209:5 232:17

250:21

noted 69:3 74:9

notes 14:5

notice 259:18

notification 31:11

notion 123:18

227:14

NRDC 88:16

number 9:2 11:5

12:17 18:11 42:17

66:6,21 70:16,17

80:16 91:10 96:13

98:18 101:14,19

120:10 123:3,5

125:5 129:12,12

129:13 131:12

132:13 145:3,22

146:1 150:12

153:7,7 158:11

159:10 160:6

172:4 177:1,14,19

178:4,9 179:15,16

180:22 182:13

186:8 191:1 192:4

192:8,15,17,20

193:7 194:2,18

197:16 212:11

236:20 237:20

238:1,11,19 239:6

239:6,14 261:10

numbering 165:14

numbers 86:14

142:12 146:19,21

158:10 176:19

191:2 193:17

194:14 236:4,17

237:4,9 239:15,16

numerous 97:22

200:5

O

o'clock 66:16

object 46:17 47:4

49:6,8 57:2,21

58:18 60:3,6

61:12 66:13 70:13

80:15 112:12

115:3 120:5

245:12,13

objecting 46:19

objection 3:10

58:17 111:22

250:19

objections 67:1

115:9,11 118:16

120:4 212:10

objects 47:22 48:3

48:3 62:21

obligation 53:11

54:21 73:13,17,19

73:20 79:6 81:19

obligations 57:19

observation 116:11

191:6

obstacles 196:12

obtain 179:18

obtained 44:17

obvious 35:20

65:11

obviously 25:19

34:6 44:20 51:19

65:15 81:11

136:13 207:10

256:22

occasion 218:14

occasionally

195:12

occasions 31:19

80:21

occupant 60:16

occur 92:6 121:6

occurred 122:11

218:4 226:15

260:8

occurrence 151:13

October 1:8

OEM 211:13

239:19

OEM's 68:11

OEMs 238:22

Off-mic 6:1

Off-microphone

119:5 162:20

offer 5:4,5 69:8

offered 105:18

office 223:1

offices 80:8,11

official 31:14

officials 86:10

offline 70:9

offset 84:7

oftentimes 27:15

oh 59:1 102:14

163:19 164:6

168:20 201:21

205:13 231:2

239:21 253:4

oil 144:2

okay 6:22,22 7:7,18

7:21 10:4 12:10

25:21 26:15 27:21

32:18 36:7 37:4

40:16,19 42:5

44:5 47:2,3 48:11

49:4,10 52:8

57:22 58:13 61:11

62:16,20 69:14

73:11 75:1 77:3

80:16 97:16

105:22 107:3

108:5,13,15

111:13,20 115:2

115:11 116:22

117:1 120:6,9,15

122:20 136:15,15

138:13 139:15,20

140:13 141:8

145:14 158:20

159:14,17 160:2

160:16 161:2

165:9,18 170:9

172:18,19 173:15

173:16 178:14

180:15 185:11

189:2 195:1,15,15

197:10 198:14

201:18 202:21

207:8,21 211:18

212:10,11 213:6

214:21 224:22

232:20 233:14

237:2,10 240:16

241:11 242:22

244:11 245:7

247:6,20 248:14

250:9,20 252:13

253:2 257:7 262:6

old 136:14 190:20

232:7

once 15:6 54:13

102:18 113:20

126:12 145:21

148:2 150:20

196:7 198:2 217:6

254:9 261:16

one-off 240:12

one-way 146:14

onerous 13:19

20:10,18

ones 24:17,18

72:16 84:11

168:17 172:16

190:7,20 209:14

218:1

online 250:3

open 24:14 51:20

55:6 69:22 84:15

104:2 113:16

121:9 174:11

195:22 199:5,18

227:5,9,16

opening 147:16

operate 180:12

199:20
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 285

operates 42:21

operating 120:22

173:11 198:22

231:3,4,5

operational 51:19

opinion 21:14

92:11 97:9 98:17

111:12

opportune 174:21

opportunities

105:1

opportunity 88:18

91:10

opposed 27:22

50:18 54:9 78:13

79:17 103:6

109:12 137:16

151:16 183:1

218:3 248:12

261:14

option 83:13

168:21 188:4

207:12,18

options 72:22

orange 104:20

order 10:12 11:12

41:22 76:2,17

82:6,7 226:9

241:17

orders 145:6

192:11

organization 54:5

original 117:10

originally 94:2

ornaments 26:4

ostensibly 39:19

OTC 15:20 16:10

ought 99:22

outcome 255:9

outdoor 123:1,11

123:22 124:10

125:9 128:13

129:4,21 134:4

135:4,7 136:11

145:16 146:1,1

149:22 150:4

154:19 157:6

159:9 160:12

162:10 163:4

251:7 252:6

260:19,21 263:2

263:16

outdoor/indoor

252:2

outgoing 77:17

outlet 176:1

outreach 90:15

over-the 13:9 26:18

over-the-counter

13:9 173:9,20

176:21 177:21

190:5 200:7,11

overlap 3:18

overlapping 8:5

overly 55:2

overnight 178:10

178:13

Owned 1:17

owner 22:10 60:14

owns 60:22

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

3:1

p.m 66:19 117:4,5

172:1,2 265:8

package 21:19

32:16 48:6 52:19

148:12

packaged 52:5

packaging 52:16

packing 174:12

page 45:3 85:16

141:14

paid 182:10,12

189:18

pain 191:10 205:14

pair 124:17 132:5

251:17

pairing 135:3

palatable 16:18,18

19:17 20:13

palate 222:13

paper 24:6 194:9

204:2,3 238:5

Paperwork 100:10

parlance 50:9

parse 177:17

part 14:2 18:10

20:7 45:1 51:12

68:21 102:5

127:22 130:9

132:1 140:22

145:16 150:3,8

172:12 186:5

188:8 202:7

218:11 248:6

249:1 260:16

264:18

PARTICIPANT

112:13

particular 13:8

17:14 34:2,3

86:12 89:6,6

101:18 102:3,20

106:4 113:1

129:22 146:6

161:6 165:6

167:12 170:11

209:15 218:8

particularly 138:21

181:3 193:6

195:11 215:6

parties 33:3 95:17

183:8 215:12

partner 182:6

183:4

partners 181:1

182:9 186:5,9

187:4 202:17

parts 28:3 123:22

124:21 138:10

144:10,16 190:18

195:12 197:7

252:2

party 179:13

passed 66:14

176:11

passing 28:17

path 26:2

paw 209:13

pay 10:20 21:3

186:7,18 187:8,8

188:22 190:6

233:8

paying 183:3 197:1

payment 189:14

peak 181:20 182:4

peculiar 134:6

penalized 56:11

pending 6:19

people 4:3,4,22 5:1

5:15 7:9 15:5

19:22 22:7 24:11

27:4 28:22 31:18

31:21 34:22 39:9

40:2,3 48:1,6

53:20 58:17 74:8

90:20 91:4,16,17

92:7 96:3 100:18

106:20 107:4,17

113:21 114:2

115:8,10 126:3,17

127:13 134:5,22

138:16 152:10

155:3,6,9,12

156:13,16 157:15

159:14 160:6

161:12 164:5

166:21 175:15

178:21 181:15

182:4,10 183:6

184:15 185:20

186:17 190:6,8

197:12,12,18

198:6 207:19

209:4 215:19

222:2,8,13,22

244:22 245:12

249:9 255:4

259:18 260:20

percent 12:17 17:5

17:12,21 18:1,5,7

21:22 83:6 86:15

129:4 134:15

156:12 168:7,16

181:22 183:6

percentage 184:4

192:14

percentages 12:12

perception 132:3

181:7

perform 73:4

124:18 132:4

135:11 146:3

148:5,8

performance

124:11 135:2,22

137:3 167:18

performing 132:9

performs 135:19

period 14:18 24:2

41:22 109:5

176:17 177:21

186:20 187:16

204:11 217:22

223:10,11

permitted 84:11

permutations 61:1

person 52:22 53:2

53:6 54:1,13

56:16 59:12,14

60:13,20,22 62:8

71:20 77:2 102:15

122:9 138:19

189:12 212:18

213:7 218:8

242:11 246:20

249:9

personal 180:18

209:5

personally 15:2

105:14 150:11

193:4 209:18

personally-identi...

15:7

perspective 108:15

119:13 133:16

142:20

pharmaceutical

176:4

pharmaceuticals

176:12

phase-in 177:19,21

178:9 181:2

197:12
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 286

phased 19:14,15

phased-in 178:18

PHCC 69:21 85:7

172:7

Phoenix 182:2

184:17 185:21

186:16 187:13,14

phone 11:5 86:2

102:15 174:22

179:16 191:1

220:2

photograph 238:15

phrase 68:8 106:9

178:1

physical 215:10

pick 43:13 44:1

105:20 190:18

252:22

picked 14:14 243:7

pickup 185:20

picture 141:10

169:1 225:13

piece 128:16

143:13 157:7

pieces 28:4 191:3

pile 194:19 231:22

232:4

PIN 97:14

pinned 222:19

piston 143:19

pitch 68:5

place 57:8,9 60:21

68:6 71:2 91:7

99:7 120:13,16

170:12 190:9

191:12,14 227:21

227:22 228:19

257:16

placed 54:22,22

placement 252:1

places 54:7 99:12

182:3 229:16

plan 7:14 20:9 26:8

plans 97:4

plate 225:14 238:8

238:16 257:1

play 20:7 93:7

122:2 201:6

257:14

please 16:10 18:22

67:14 162:18

195:19

Plumbing-Heati...

2:7

plus 18:10 134:9

237:12

pm 66:18

point 10:10 15:16

17:20 18:2 19:11

22:5 26:3 27:14

39:9 45:4 47:14

54:18 62:1,6 68:1

81:14 82:22 92:19

93:17 95:17,19

96:7 97:5 98:22

103:5 106:11

113:20 118:21

133:18 135:6,17

143:3 148:21

164:8,12 170:1,17

173:7 175:22

176:3 181:11

199:3 206:17

216:7,12 219:16

220:17,18,22

221:2 225:20

229:5 230:9

232:11 235:13

236:2 240:4 248:4

254:16

pointers 5:14,19

points 11:4 22:14

policies 186:11

policy 181:6

poll 17:15

pool 81:2

portion 63:1

151:21 198:4

Portland 200:11,15

posed 120:21

position 8:17 30:10

97:10 100:9

positive 247:8

possession 234:11

possibility 113:16

118:19 219:13

228:4 256:21

possible 41:16

56:11 61:1 69:4

145:8 146:16

152:12 206:2

207:4 220:21

224:10 226:19

possibly 29:1 46:12

59:13 102:9

106:21 199:1

203:14 215:18

postcards 98:1

potential 8:19

88:20 89:8

potentially 33:6

89:10 122:12

199:4

practical 65:8

99:15,20 206:7

207:4

practice 164:4

177:11 222:7

practices 11:22

21:8 166:21 197:2

242:15

preamble 60:19

62:19 68:17

109:11,14,21

114:13,20 262:3

preclude 48:5

228:10

predicate 226:11

predominant

182:10

preemptively 246:1

prefatory 138:21

prefer 5:9 59:16

preferable 48:21

67:7

preference 28:15

83:5 178:20 182:6

192:15

premise 31:2 33:8

34:5 79:1 261:5

premised 29:10

Premises 261:4

premium 167:22

prepared 26:12

41:2 65:6 161:14

161:17,19 163:11

prescription 68:20

prescriptive 68:14

present 1:12 2:1,9

102:19 168:5

presented 137:10

preserve 47:9

presiding 1:11

press 254:22

pressure 65:18

presumably 10:21

presume 17:5

presuming 160:22

170:5

presumption 89:22

pretty 78:18,19

134:11 174:16

219:11 240:20

241:4 264:21

previously 127:17

253:2

price 206:5

primarily 18:14

153:13 157:7

227:12,13

primary 69:13

principle 97:17

100:1

print 63:9

printed 64:2

prior 23:9 232:19

pro 106:18

proactive 73:4

80:18 86:16 88:18

89:13,18 90:15

100:2,22 108:21

109:4,5,8 110:13

111:4,9 112:11

113:6,11 227:12

proactively 104:1

106:9 113:4

219:12 227:17

probability 99:3

probably 11:1

19:17 21:8,22

22:12 26:4 44:5

81:17 85:22 86:16

86:22 125:7 144:5

148:20 150:11,12

150:13 151:10

152:20 156:12

166:17 172:11

196:13 204:1

209:7 213:21

219:7,19 240:18

242:8 244:5,18

245:9 262:2,4

264:15

problem 6:18

20:22 36:7,8

45:16 82:19

100:10 110:8,16

128:19 142:3

198:11 222:15

240:14 253:17

255:8 259:16

264:12

problematic

176:19 177:15

problems 8:19

61:12 98:9 193:10

250:16

procedure 37:20

42:15,22

procedures 186:11

256:4

proceed 47:21

process 11:13,20

17:13 43:21

115:18,20 174:16

178:7 232:12

255:15 257:16

processes 187:17

192:21 199:13

256:4 257:3

product 8:22 12:6

22:21 25:10 28:8

43:3,14 44:1

50:10,10 56:16

65:9 123:8,9
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 287

135:19 140:21

144:8,9,11 148:10

150:2,3 162:11

187:1,1 189:13

200:22 201:17

228:22 229:18

230:1 234:21

235:1 238:11

240:7,14 248:20

248:22 251:1

252:15 255:16

258:5 259:19

Productinfo.ener...

64:20

production 89:2

100:10 110:22

111:16 112:20

208:7

products 13:7

21:17 166:7,11,16

188:6 189:7

193:18 255:14

257:15 259:9

program 86:17

87:17 92:21 93:20

94:3 256:3

prohibit 212:8

prohibited 170:18

193:6 215:5,9

216:6 218:9 238:9

254:20 263:17

project 99:16

proof 212:22 215:8

221:7

properly 135:8

164:12 190:22

property 60:13

253:12

proposed 49:19

50:1 51:22 94:2

proposing 121:3

166:4 230:6

protect 15:9

protects 118:11

prove 9:1 170:1,3

170:10 185:22

215:14 258:9

proved 215:15

proves 82:18

provide 67:3 69:4,8

75:17 86:8 144:3

177:1

provided 64:6

189:1 243:19

provides 243:17

244:2

providing 68:6

85:2

prudent 235:14

pseudoephedrine

13:15,16,18

public 1:5,10 13:21

69:22 84:15

publication 255:3

published 254:22

pull 83:16 151:15

193:19 194:13

195:3 209:14

218:6 253:12

256:17

pulled 256:5

pulling 151:16

152:18 253:18

pump 127:3 139:17

153:11

pumps 81:2 153:11

154:3

punishment 95:22

96:2

punishments 97:2

purchase 174:12

purchased 189:8

212:4

purchaser 11:8

28:5 61:19,22

192:7

purchasing 61:4

purpose 16:3 44:3

44:5 131:16 165:6

purposes 47:10

77:16 160:1 191:2

pursue 104:16

109:8

push 123:18

pushing 41:14

put 23:11 25:9 26:5

29:5 33:20 37:7

51:14 54:19 57:8

62:13 63:10,12

65:3 72:6 83:10

83:12 88:3 98:3

100:18 107:16

109:15,19 111:14

113:20 126:16

129:11 131:11

135:20 141:21

142:15 143:7,22

144:1 149:17

151:21 153:19

155:12 161:14

164:15 185:20

195:4,5 209:1

227:7 239:22

259:18 261:22

puts 57:9

putting 92:5 101:8

126:3 130:17

142:10 185:15,19

244:10

puzzled 6:15

Q

qualified 188:2

qualify 57:18 60:15

quality 197:1

qualms 115:9

question 6:5 16:6,7

28:6 29:11 32:20

32:22 33:14 34:12

35:5 37:14 41:2

54:18 60:10 64:9

65:14 66:4 67:13

70:20 72:20 78:9

100:12 101:16

112:17 113:9

115:1 122:21

128:4 146:10

147:5 149:13

151:7,14 154:9

157:13 159:20

161:8,20 162:3

164:15 170:10

176:19 179:12

187:13,21 188:5

189:3,6 190:3

192:3,4 197:11,15

198:19 200:8

211:20 215:1

216:22 223:16

224:22 225:6

230:7 232:22

233:1 234:12

235:19 236:2,7

254:21 255:12,17

259:13 260:22

261:6,10

questioned 201:8

questioning 157:9

questions 14:8

49:15 52:2 63:2

66:12 70:12,18

75:2 80:14 136:5

180:22 181:11

183:12 199:14

203:3 210:16

214:22 226:16

248:15

quick 16:3 20:2

141:4

quickly 258:22

quiet 7:22

quit 264:3

quite 98:18 209:16

quote 22:1

R

R 42:2 117:21

rabble-rouser

214:6

rag 255:5

raise 119:7 198:7

203:5 247:5

raised 223:17

249:1

raises 180:17

raising 226:22

ran 190:17

Rand 1:16 60:9

random 89:4 91:8

91:18,21 93:14

111:9

randomly 88:21

92:7

rare 131:6

rate 38:20 263:4

rated 40:7 42:1

44:15 133:22

167:18 236:9,10

255:16

rating 28:10 29:16

34:6,11 36:22

37:20 38:14,15,16

39:4 42:6 43:12

43:20 64:16

123:14 127:20

147:1,2 162:9

166:9,11,21 238:8

256:6 257:1

ratings 44:16

RAWALD 2:3

13:14,17 16:12

19:10 22:17 24:9

24:13 25:21 28:16

31:4,17 32:1,10

33:17 35:17 37:10

39:7,17 40:10,16

42:7 44:19 47:5

49:16 52:8 53:4,8

54:11 55:11,21

56:5,21 57:14

58:20 60:18 61:21

63:3 64:5 65:5

66:1,8 67:8,21

68:15 69:6,14

71:5 73:2,16 75:1

75:10 78:8 80:2

80:10,13,19 82:20

84:14 97:13

100:11 106:3,17

107:7,15 109:2,10

109:13,17 110:19

111:11,14 112:17

113:14,17 119:9

119:12 120:12,19

121:10,14 122:13

123:17 126:11

127:14 128:2,14
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 288

129:8 130:11,13

131:1,20 132:16

133:10 134:20

137:6 138:7,14

139:5,10,15 140:7

140:10 144:7

145:19 146:5

147:21 148:7,22

149:5 151:14

155:1,21 156:2,6

156:14 157:20

158:3,13 159:6,14

159:19 160:16,19

161:2,10 163:14

165:9,13,19

168:12 170:5,9,20

171:13 172:21

173:7 177:16

178:8,14 180:5,12

180:15 182:16

185:6,11 190:2

197:10 198:2

200:2 202:6,19

203:4 204:4 205:3

207:8,16 210:5,18

211:5,7,18 212:1

212:14 214:17

215:17 216:15,21

218:11 222:1

224:21 227:5

230:8 232:13

235:5 240:3 241:9

241:21 244:5

247:6 248:1,9

249:5,20 250:7

251:3 253:15

254:9 255:7

258:14 259:15

260:11 261:12,15

262:6,14 263:20

264:4

Ray 1:16 20:3 80:6

97:21

re-ask 197:15

re-double 256:10

re-rate 258:16

re-rated 254:18

reach 106:9 206:4

208:17

reached 8:13

reaction 13:3 99:18

133:13

reactions 13:2

reactive 109:9

227:13

read 44:12 113:9

139:8 140:7 141:5

143:17 157:14,15

214:11,11

readily 207:20

reading 139:14

reads 44:10 108:14

153:3

ready 5:16 7:9,18

38:2,6 56:22

172:3

real 20:2 141:12

196:21 204:21

259:1

realize 100:18

113:22 225:8

realized 17:8 253:4

really 8:7 9:20

11:18 20:7,18

26:15 27:1 42:7

45:19 56:9 59:8

60:10 72:14 76:20

77:1 79:4,5 82:4

82:15 100:17

107:20,21 111:22

112:3 113:22

116:19,19 128:19

128:22 152:18

157:4,16 158:6

159:2,16 163:22

165:15 168:20

170:1 177:15

199:12,13 200:19

207:19 213:6,18

213:22 214:5

222:4,12,22

223:19 245:1

249:8 254:15

reason 76:9,15

77:15 115:12

119:1 154:1

162:22 165:4,6

171:16 182:10

199:8 213:1,6

216:11 221:21

228:15 237:16

242:11,16

reasonable 25:18

75:12,19,22 76:6

79:22 89:2 111:2

111:6 112:22

117:16,22 206:7,8

208:14 212:16,18

212:20,22 215:3

216:8 217:6,7

222:9,20 223:22

225:14 227:4

231:10 239:11,13

240:13 241:13,14

241:15 245:12,14

246:4,19 247:14

reasonableness

220:12 221:14

246:6

reasonably 245:17

reasoning 229:4

reasons 25:20

123:7 164:19

184:15 186:8

203:8 240:12

recall 219:15

recalling 257:5

receipt 129:11

130:16,17 131:11

131:13 144:17

145:2 195:4,5,16

195:17

receipts 129:9

receive 212:3

received 33:10

102:21

recipients 93:19

recognize 18:7,17

175:3 220:11

recognized 18:20

recommended

51:13

reconfirm 47:15

reconsideration

115:21

record 5:6 7:16

8:15 9:8 10:2

13:8,19 14:1,8

19:7,13 20:5,6,14

23:3,7,13,16

26:20 31:6 35:17

36:5 40:18 48:17

49:9 66:18 75:6,8

79:14,17 112:20

117:4 122:17

128:3,21 129:3

145:18 149:15,17

150:6,14 154:17

155:3 156:22

157:22 167:16,17

172:1,2 178:19

189:16 198:10

203:2 204:13

208:1 209:21

213:19 214:13

216:1 238:1

240:18 242:12

245:1 249:18

260:14 265:7

record-keeping

9:13,20 15:4 22:7

120:14 157:5

163:12 191:20

199:11

recorded 183:4

191:2

recording 67:12

134:17

records 15:17

20:16 23:5 24:21

25:19 71:10,15

75:15 76:3 77:9

78:21 79:17 88:22

89:2 90:1 92:7

99:10 101:4

110:21,22 111:2,5

111:15 112:15

121:20 123:15

128:17 154:1,7

157:6,10 163:19

163:22 164:2,22

165:7 166:17

168:16 169:4

170:1,13 171:10

171:17 173:12

185:8 187:21

198:20 199:1,7

201:9,14 204:8

206:9 207:1 212:5

212:13,16,19

215:6 216:12,18

217:2,12,19,20

218:1,15,18,19

219:9,12 220:20

221:18 223:2

224:5 226:9,18

227:4,18 228:3,12

228:17 230:21

232:19 233:15

237:18 238:5,18

239:1,11 241:19

242:13 243:1,12

243:14,16,19,20

244:2,4,17,18,19

redirected 254:1

reduces 152:9

redundant 50:15

55:22 56:2,4 58:3

58:5,8

redundantly

138:17,18

refer 54:4,5,8

reference 64:18,22

65:2 68:4 240:5

referenced 64:14

64:21

referring 40:11

54:2 73:19 160:9

refile 37:5

reflect 48:17

100:15 228:6

reflection 124:5

reflects 88:16

refrigerant 51:17

52:13,17 132:22
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 289

134:19 139:19

refrigerant-mete...

140:20

refrigerants 188:21

Refrigeration 2:6

2:11

reg 32:8

regard 73:10

regarding 111:15

123:12 176:11

198:20

regardless 45:10

89:20 168:3

regards 173:20

regime 236:5,19

region 29:22 34:11

45:13 46:2 89:6

109:4 120:1,3

121:7,12,16,21

122:8 123:15

128:4 162:10

199:20 250:4

259:10 260:2

regional 1:3 21:17

21:20 29:21 35:11

36:21 50:17 63:6

64:8 65:13 72:9

120:14,17 134:3

134:14 136:7

181:4 198:22

257:17 258:2

regions 9:8 29:18

117:13 121:12

165:5 199:4,6

237:6

registered 187:10

regret 264:15

regs 38:5

regular 180:4

230:18

regularized 81:1,3

164:4

regulate 73:6

123:20 135:1

155:2

regulated 123:19

259:17

regulating 133:7

regulation 68:16

regulations 16:16

86:14 138:10

201:10

regulatory 50:8,13

55:8 109:20 134:6

236:19

reiterate 116:18

181:18 235:13

reject 82:3

related 60:10 86:8

183:13 195:8

relationship 51:2

57:6 146:12

relative 162:6

191:18

relevant 66:3

reliability 137:2

reliable 226:1

233:5

rely 100:20 123:11

208:4 246:19

relying 94:20 100:3

238:17

remain 236:16

remark 256:21

remember 13:11

13:13 67:22

remembers 244:9

reminded 134:21

182:7

remove 47:3

removed 47:20

rental 60:13

reorganized 29:6

repair 27:17

Repairs 196:9

197:7

repeat 229:18

repeated 138:17

rephrase 112:1

replace 61:16,18

106:8 128:5 131:3

131:4,4,9 132:7

136:19 137:15,19

145:16,20 149:15

149:22 153:17

260:19 261:17

263:1

replaced 130:4

149:3 154:20

replacement

127:18,19 130:6

140:21 145:9

150:8 158:21

159:21 260:15

replacements

159:2

replacing 128:3

130:21 131:6,17

131:22 132:2,14

136:11 137:4,12

144:19,20,22

148:1,3 151:17

152:19 153:8

159:15

report 41:22 90:20

108:4 122:3

130:22 158:8

169:16 230:11

238:14 243:6

reported 73:8 74:5

182:13 227:19

REPORTER 3:13

reporting 70:18

72:20,21 78:4

91:3,7 93:12

114:14

reports 3:7 94:20

100:3

representatives

103:16

represented 68:3

request 75:6,8

79:14 85:5 90:1

92:7 106:15

110:21 111:1,5

198:10 208:1

212:16 215:6

220:12 221:18

227:4 239:11

240:19 241:19

242:12,13 243:2

244:3

requested 6:14

33:19

requesting 77:9

78:3

requests 71:11

79:17 173:21

212:13 216:18

239:1,5 246:16

require 13:22

75:19 76:14 124:9

124:14,16 130:7

138:1 148:4

176:22 219:8

242:7,8 247:12

253:17 256:17

required 9:17 13:8

128:3 173:14

191:17 193:16

199:7,21 242:1

requirement 9:9,13

9:20 23:3,7,12

74:18 80:22 94:6

100:19 109:19

112:21,21 113:2

127:22 151:5

163:12 211:11,22

253:19

requirements

13:20 15:4,8 89:1

125:14 198:11

209:22 257:18

requiring 89:1

125:2 128:12

130:20 136:17

206:18 207:1

212:5

research 99:9,9,16

172:17

resell 257:11

reserve 100:21

107:14

Reserves 107:5

reserving 107:10

reside 227:20

228:13

residential 50:7,10

50:12,15 51:8

248:7,8,11

resides 171:15

resolution 258:7

resources 2:2 67:6

87:21

respect 6:11 73:14

86:13 162:5

187:22 193:6

respond 94:1 163:1

208:2 246:15

responding 74:5

response 13:5 26:3

31:14 33:1 83:7

responsible 105:18

254:10

rest 38:6 140:8

215:14

restated 59:19

restating 31:21

restraints 181:10

restrict 219:11

220:13

restrictions 246:5

result 17:8

resulting 102:10

resume 5:13

resumed 7:17 36:6

66:19 117:5

retail 176:1 186:13

retailer 10:14,15

10:18 11:8 104:20

185:17

retailers 11:14

185:4

retained 144:22

159:9

retention 19:7,13

26:20 88:22

149:15 154:2,8

157:1,6,10,22

178:19 198:10,20

203:2 209:22

260:15

revenge 214:12

revenues 176:4

reverberated
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 290

134:10

reverse 149:7

review 82:17 90:15

104:1 223:3

revisit 115:12

revived 171:21

Rheem 1:21 17:20

47:2 59:16 67:17

90:18 117:16

128:19 152:15

234:10

Rheem's 239:20

rich 105:1

ridiculous 90:22

92:9,18 103:17

104:10,13 105:15

riding 32:8

right 3:3 7:22 23:1

23:8 24:9,16

33:17 37:10 38:5

38:18 40:1,9 42:2

42:13 43:17,18

45:18 49:1 53:4

54:7,11 55:18,21

57:14 60:4,18

61:3 65:16,18

66:14,20 70:14

71:5 73:2,3,21

79:1 82:20 97:14

100:21 102:16

107:6,11,13

109:13,17 111:11

111:20 112:9

114:1 117:11

119:9 126:11

127:12 128:15

129:8 130:11,13

132:17 134:20

136:12 138:18

139:15,20 143:6

147:21 149:4,7

152:3 155:1,21

156:6,20 157:1

158:1,3,13,14

160:20 161:10

171:17,19 172:3

172:19 179:5

180:5 188:17

193:20,21,21

200:2 202:19

210:5 212:12,14

213:21 214:17,18

216:14,15,20

218:15 221:2,9

224:14 225:12,13

225:22 227:5

230:8 232:5,15

235:6,11 237:14

238:13 240:3,8

241:9,21 244:22

248:9 249:6,20

250:22 251:1

252:8 254:9,12

260:18 261:15,21

262:14 263:20

264:6 265:3

rigid 78:18

ring 204:22

ringing 174:22

risk 55:9 201:7

221:5

road 82:10 202:10

robo 81:3

robocalled 94:6

robocalling 92:8

Rochester 199:16

Rocky 2:4 51:12

52:3,4,9,15 58:2

59:18 64:6,13

66:5,10 130:2,3

130:12 149:12

180:21 183:10

186:2 198:8

202:13 231:18

236:6,21 237:3

238:3,6 256:13

roll 174:13

rolls 204:22 236:14

room 4:4 7:9 18:18

18:20 28:17 30:15

31:21 37:9 38:10

91:19 108:14

134:12 138:19

147:8 155:10

159:1

rooms 4:3

roost 152:7

rough 26:9

routine 168:14

227:3

routinely 188:3

routineness 164:22

Roy 2:4 46:14,14

68:13 79:21 202:1

RP 193:1

rule 30:11 36:11

62:5,13 63:2 68:4

73:22 110:9 134:3

167:14 210:4,5,7

210:8,12 259:3

rulemaking 19:3

rules 73:21 88:1

109:12,16 146:14

152:7 156:17

166:2 208:5

run 87:17 183:22

220:20 221:5,17

243:5

running 183:18

221:10

runs 25:11

S

S.W 1:10

Sachs 2:5 4:7,7 5:3

5:10,18 6:5 7:5

13:3,16,19 15:11

16:4 48:15 53:21

55:7 57:3,20

59:22 67:2,14

105:16 119:22

133:9,11 136:1,1

137:20 138:13,15

160:4,17 161:1

167:6 191:7 193:3

196:15 205:1,5

207:5,14 210:22

211:6 214:10

235:17 236:12

237:2,10,14 238:4

238:12 250:11

254:17

Sacramento 182:3

184:18 185:21

190:18

sake 146:18 249:17

sale 12:7 129:10,10

176:3,18 182:18

188:5,7,9 189:9

189:11,12 197:7

236:10 241:17

263:17

sales 10:8,9,10,17

12:1,9,12,22 14:9

14:21 16:10 17:6

17:6,12,12 18:18

23:16 26:19 27:22

41:21 42:4,16

57:17 168:7 173:9

173:21 176:20,21

177:6,12,21 178:5

178:7 184:14,16

185:8,14 188:1,6

190:5 191:21

200:11 202:17

212:3 249:9,19

salient 26:3

sample 91:8

satisfied 62:15

satisfy 92:15

258:22

saturation 94:4

save 47:5 248:11

saving 92:4

savings 92:4

saw 202:3

saying 40:2 56:3,7

65:1 69:7 79:8

96:8 103:16

108:19 110:20

111:4 114:8,13

116:13 126:9,18

131:21,21 138:10

138:11,15 143:13

144:17 145:8,11

145:17,19,20

149:7 164:21

169:2 171:1

200:21 212:1

216:5 221:8 225:2

226:4,18 235:4

238:8 241:22

242:1,2 245:18,21

251:10 252:8

259:19 263:10,16

says 37:16 39:1

40:5 43:17,19

57:5 67:3 91:8

104:11 138:2

145:6 160:8

169:20 183:2

195:16 224:14

233:6,12,14

243:11,13,20,22

244:8 263:17

scale 99:16 200:1

247:13

scanned 15:22

scare 107:17

scenario 57:15

58:21 137:10,18

151:3 169:16

170:21 171:8

215:18 218:12,22

243:11

scenarios 12:19

140:14

scheduled 116:3,9

scheme 19:13,15

23:13 178:19

179:1,3

scope 8:14 12:22

26:18 28:1,9

120:18 122:22

161:16 163:9,13

163:22 164:20

165:5 172:9,11

225:19

screen 28:18 44:10

61:13

search 229:6 259:8

searchable 209:3

season 181:21

182:5

seats 117:7

Seattle 182:3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 291

second 149:14

158:11 207:18

260:12

secondary 160:5

section 67:17

128:13

secure 20:19 92:22

see 3:20 8:8 26:4

31:7 41:8 55:11

55:12 56:5,9 59:2

61:13 63:9,16

66:9 70:21 73:5

75:21 76:19 84:4

85:21 86:22 90:12

92:22 93:6,13

94:7,17 98:7

102:12 103:8,15

112:6,15 115:3

118:10 141:21

142:13 161:16

163:21,22 168:22

200:17 203:13

207:9,21 216:2

218:12 221:8

229:9 230:10

232:4 233:11,15

235:3 237:18,20

265:4

seeing 6:15 173:4

seemingly 120:22

seen 63:8 108:4

222:17

SEER 9:12,16

21:18 27:22 29:11

29:15 33:21 41:12

41:14 47:12 57:9

91:22 98:5,5

101:19 133:18

148:18 184:20

185:4,9 186:18

187:12 193:21

215:21 216:5

233:9 234:11

236:9,10,13 243:9

251:8 255:14

256:15,15,19

261:18,20

SEER-13 118:22

142:15 147:1

SEER-14 135:9,12

143:6 146:17

147:2,4,16,19

SEER-8 143:8

SEERs 216:2

sees 91:5

segment 186:6

self-interest 142:14

sell 14:7,12 18:14

19:13 27:20 45:12

56:15 60:13 175:9

175:15 186:22,22

188:3,7 195:11

199:6 202:15

224:15 228:22

229:1 234:7,8,21

235:1 239:6

248:20,21 249:1,7

249:10 252:22

253:7 255:20

257:8

sell-through 14:17

186:19 187:16

selling 9:18 22:7

56:13 167:22

185:4 230:22,22

249:12,13,22

sells 46:1 57:7

semantics 157:13

sending 85:18

196:1

sense 3:11 61:9

77:16 92:19 119:1

154:15 155:6,9,11

158:22 172:11

178:22 183:5,11

196:22 199:16

200:18 201:12,15

245:20 248:10

260:10 261:6

sentence 41:12

separate 47:17

66:1 144:3 177:18

217:14

serial 123:3 125:4

129:12 145:22

176:19 177:1,14

177:19 178:3

192:4,8,15,20

193:7,17 194:2,14

194:18 197:16

237:20 238:1,10

238:19 239:6,16

serialization 125:3

serialize 125:1

serialized 11:10

series 49:3

server 24:8

service 132:1 151:9

160:14

set 118:6,8

setting 196:16

seven 244:21

severe 97:2

severity 95:22 96:2

shelf 44:1

Shepherd 2:6

14:22,22 55:16,16

56:2 87:12,12

111:21,21 215:1,2

216:13,16 217:17

225:7 226:21

246:7 247:15

shift 22:7

shipment 250:13

shipped 155:14

shoestring 183:20

shortly 3:5 21:15

shot 67:5

shoulders 32:9

shovel 105:22

106:1

show 89:22 112:14

128:7 137:18

146:22 148:13,14

168:5 218:19

225:22 250:20

showed 238:7

showing 215:20

232:19

shown 52:10

side 92:17,18 131:6

142:14 147:17

169:22 170:7

195:10 204:6

sideline 43:2

Siding 99:19

sign 30:21 194:9

signed 225:8

significant 11:13

21:10 186:10

221:3 246:14

significantly

128:20 151:8,9

157:4

signing 184:18

similar 4:20 81:1

211:20

simple 42:8 66:22

98:3

simpler 28:11,14

simplifying 168:8

simply 71:22

107:10 114:12

176:20 177:7

232:14

simultaneous

191:16

single 34:9,14

37:18 38:10,14,16

39:2 44:13 108:4

108:10

single-speed 36:19

single-stage 39:15

sit 22:21 96:16

152:16 153:9

190:4

site 64:16,20 65:12

261:19

sites 65:2 67:18

181:5

sitting 83:17 143:1

143:8 153:16

194:15

situation 78:15,19

96:11 128:10

131:2 145:9 149:2

149:8 253:10

254:14 257:22

259:1

situations 9:21

127:18

six 146:19 149:21

150:18

sixth 213:17

sixty 207:15

size 148:17

skirt 206:22

slide 26:6 28:18

32:17 33:9 34:8

36:1,13 37:3 40:4

40:12 41:6 44:4

47:18,19,22 48:4

48:7,11 49:5,13

51:15 62:22 66:1

66:9,21 67:1

70:14,16,17 72:19

73:12 74:12,14,20

74:22 75:5,12

76:19 80:4,16,16

80:17,20 83:5

87:16 110:22

120:10 161:3,6,22

167:2 172:4,20

202:22 203:1

210:20 211:1,5,8

211:11 250:19

251:1 252:7 264:1

slides 31:7 67:10

83:20 142:6 198:3

198:15 212:15

228:21

sliding 247:13

slight 49:21

slightly 35:1 52:7

125:17 133:21

slip 174:13,14

slow 44:12

small 82:13 137:9

188:8 189:7 199:9

204:1

smaller 133:21

137:11

smarter 106:20

Smith 244:9

sold 122:7 167:9
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 292

179:14 184:22

187:13,14 229:15

230:2,3,5 232:1

234:3 240:1

256:18,19

solely 73:15 85:3

94:20

solid 19:13 246:18

solution 48:18

147:6

solutions 48:21

solve 147:14

solved 93:13

110:20 259:16

somebody 27:15

71:18 82:13 89:22

119:3 125:10

140:5 177:13

184:18 193:18

233:5 239:13,22

245:2 253:21

254:22

somebody's 135:19

something's 150:21

somewhat 29:6

257:14

soon 41:15 68:10

sophistication

206:14,16

sorry 3:13,15 10:7

35:14 58:2 99:17

123:13 140:9

161:8 201:22

205:13 211:6,6

236:13 238:6

sort 3:18 4:20 5:9

53:10 71:1 75:20

77:18,21 78:4,5

81:20 82:5 93:10

93:10,14 95:20

99:1,6 103:13

107:18 119:2

134:1,9 162:2

164:2,21 176:16

179:10 180:19

182:14 225:11

226:6 235:18

238:14 240:5

264:12

sorts 61:1

sounds 131:6

soup 241:3

source 86:20 233:5

234:1,2 243:13,21

south 9:11 119:3

142:21 145:1

152:20 164:11

169:18 171:16

199:17 200:13,14

200:22 224:12

253:6 255:2

southeast 8:15,18

9:5 29:17 84:19

120:21 121:8

161:13,18 163:10

238:10 254:20

257:9

southern 170:6

230:12 250:6

southwest 8:15,19

9:5 29:18,19

84:19 120:21

121:8 145:2

161:13,19 163:10

238:9 254:21

257:8 263:18,19

speak 11:16 97:13

198:9 220:3

264:18

speaking 25:6

112:18 118:3

124:7 150:11

238:22

specialized 29:16

specific 51:3 88:5

113:2 226:16

specifically 33:13

35:8 41:12 104:21

111:18 187:22

223:13 236:7

249:3

specifying 171:11

specs 129:21

speed 36:22 175:11

spend 91:13

spiteful 104:11

split 44:12 51:16

122:22 127:2

132:20 139:16

152:15

spoke 87:11

spokes 230:16

spot 5:22

squarely 45:2

stack 15:21 194:10

194:11,13

stage 34:15 37:19

38:11,14,16 39:2

44:14

stakeholder 89:7

stakes 205:19

stalls 112:7

stand 158:6 245:11

standard 24:1

29:21 36:21 64:15

75:16 78:20 136:7

141:4 142:22

174:1 190:17

222:9 240:6,10,11

252:17 258:8

260:18 263:4

standardized

211:22

standards 1:3

21:18,20 50:18

63:6 64:8 65:13

67:4 72:10 258:2

standpoint 102:13

202:14 239:19,20

start 7:12,13 8:4

12:1 92:8 108:6

208:21

started 3:4 7:19

66:21 117:20

264:18

starting 77:8 218:3

218:3

STAS 2:16

state 64:3 234:15

stated 25:20 31:6

36:15 110:9

198:12

statement 109:12

109:12,15 112:2

244:20

states 28:13 86:17

175:9 176:2

188:19 236:11

statute 53:12,18

54:18 150:20

204:10 210:3

stay 4:4 5:1 7:9,11

89:12

stayed 20:17

staying 118:19

step 19:1 192:9

stepping 142:13

steps 110:4,6

243:18 256:6

stew 15:13

stick 45:16

sticker 195:3,3,5

263:17

stickers 98:2

sting 113:13

stings 114:16

stirred 15:12

stock 25:15,16

232:6,17

stocking 25:15

stone 119:2 207:6

stop 116:2 139:20

204:7 231:9

stopping 253:20

storage 205:14,16

store 10:19 12:18

15:9 174:8,10

175:1 176:1 177:1

177:14

stores 12:21 21:2

straight 108:8

142:11

straightforward

202:18

stranded 176:18

straws 194:19

stream 253:13

streamline 8:10

street 146:14 183:7

strengthening

104:4

strictly 56:14

strong 103:14

133:13 240:21

stronger 93:3

strongly 97:3

237:21

struck 206:13

struggle 162:13

struggled 11:7

struggling 73:18

154:6 184:11

stuff 29:9 98:1

164:13 182:15

189:18 191:4

206:8,9 227:17

250:3

stuffing 54:7

sub-bullet 69:7

subject 21:20 49:2

50:17,20 51:9

115:21

submit 204:13

submitted 33:18,19

34:22 41:10

subpoena 171:9,16

223:6

substantial 176:8

substantiated

211:2 213:10

substituting 103:22

success 32:9

successful 21:13

183:21 246:20

sudden 12:1

suddenly 258:2

sufficient 4:2 37:11

192:17 226:14

231:16 242:19

247:9

suggest 17:16

26:11 32:14 86:22

103:4 106:4 221:3

suggested 33:4

81:18 94:2
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 293

suggesting 90:3

96:19 214:14

suggestion 62:18

94:12 99:22 106:8

110:1

Suite 1:10

sum 103:13

summed 10:3

summer 181:21

super 32:11

superfluous 56:20

supersede 111:3

supervisor 178:16

203:5

supply 194:5 196:8

support 90:22

237:21

supportive 121:11

Suppose 233:4

supposed 11:18

57:10 184:21

253:11 254:8

sure 14:1 19:8 20:4

23:20 33:21 37:13

39:8 45:2,22 47:8

51:14 53:12,19

55:4 65:11 68:21

70:3 71:15 73:18

81:12 82:15 85:4

85:6 93:11,20

95:2 97:9 98:16

98:20 99:14

102:16 103:18

111:8 113:14,17

125:13,14 126:21

129:6 135:19

137:4 139:10

162:8 175:18

193:20 196:1,21

200:21 202:20

203:1 216:21

218:5 233:3

242:15 245:22

251:19 253:6,21

256:10,11 261:1

263:10,22

surfing 77:5

survey 74:12 80:22

81:3 82:5 87:9

93:4,19 95:3,12

96:19 97:22 98:6

98:15,19 101:14

102:6,20 103:22

105:4 106:8,19

110:14 117:12

118:10

surveyed 93:18

94:7

surveying 106:12

110:16

surveys 84:4

114:16

suspect 146:13

221:21

suspicion 212:21

229:14

swamps 136:3

swipe 11:2 21:4

swiped 238:2

switch 162:22

sword 207:6

system 16:2,8

44:13,14,15 51:16

93:11 122:22

123:21 124:20,21

125:8,13,15 127:2

127:21 130:9

132:20 135:1,2,2

135:15 136:10

137:2 139:16

140:4 142:9,11

143:5 145:1,17

150:4,9,21 152:15

153:8 154:18

158:19 159:7

160:2 174:19

188:10 189:20

193:1 195:6

204:16 206:22

211:14 251:4,12

251:12,18,19,21

251:22 252:3,5,16

252:20 254:5

261:14 262:2,4,9

263:5,6

systems 10:11,14

28:10 51:18 52:7

52:14 191:12,14

191:16 203:22

254:18

T

table 83:18 112:4,7

143:11 247:16

tail 205:6

take 4:21 10:16

16:14,20 18:21

20:12 32:13 35:21

36:2 41:7 60:4

71:2 74:8 94:8

110:3,6 115:4,6

115:14,16 116:17

117:1,7 141:17

151:20 153:18

171:20 175:12,17

178:5 193:2

194:17 195:14

197:11 202:4

209:13 248:7,10

253:12 256:7

257:10,22

taken 51:21 67:5

142:5

takes 4:1 120:9

179:1 192:9

talk 3:19 4:11,16

5:15,21 6:3,10

12:2 19:22 25:7

26:16 27:5 40:17

41:1 44:20 45:8

45:19 46:11 51:4

65:20 70:6,9

74:19 80:3,4

92:12 100:13

115:5 116:6 124:2

163:16 167:3,5

169:5,8 172:4

173:8 178:15,21

203:7,9,19 247:1

talked 10:5 12:13

26:13 55:14 64:15

69:16 73:4 74:4

95:11 126:6,8

127:17 140:18

149:18 173:19

181:19 183:20

198:21 221:13

222:2 227:7 251:6

257:2 260:14

talking 13:14 40:12

42:9 59:14 61:7

72:15 99:16

124:22 125:21

137:12 141:18

143:17 144:2,8

149:15 152:2

154:2,7 157:16,17

157:17 174:15,17

182:2 184:2

216:13 224:7

227:3 232:9 244:7

256:2 261:13,16

262:1,22

talks 49:3 139:3

tall 194:11

target 105:1,4

targeted 94:3

104:20 223:8,11

tasked 54:6

tax 90:7,10,13

technical 20:21

35:19

technically 126:13

148:20

technician 53:14

technology 48:20

tee 6:12

teed 28:21

teleconference 2:20

tell 31:17 47:21

62:1 88:10 98:4

110:15 130:8

154:16 193:19

208:14 239:22

telling 37:11 40:21

213:20 246:20

tells 214:4

temperature 4:21

ten 42:10 124:5

182:1 205:4,6

233:16

tender 188:18

term 50:18 51:11

53:9,19 54:14

55:3,5,9 58:5

61:16,18 62:4,5

62:11,12 75:11

77:12 81:17,20

104:1,4 109:2

124:6,8 138:9

176:17 179:5

214:15

terminology

262:13 263:14

terms 12:3 14:10

50:3 53:17 102:22

107:3 172:13

237:17

terrible 79:4

terribly 196:20

Terry 137:9

test 33:15 38:11

39:2,10 42:15,18

42:21 75:18

118:22 139:4

207:2 240:9

tested 33:11,22

37:19 39:1 40:8

41:20,21,21 44:14

75:20 135:8

190:20 253:3

testing 39:20,20

42:5 43:20 44:18

237:13 240:7

Texas 9:14 230:12

231:3

text 109:20 238:8

thank 15:11 35:6

35:13 52:20 57:20

61:9 66:10 74:21

116:12 117:17,19

120:7 197:21

201:19 237:15

250:10

thanks 207:5

232:20
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 294

theatrical 185:2

thereof 32:9

they'd 25:13

thing 6:13 11:3

14:4 17:17 21:21

23:4 25:1,4 33:8

39:21 43:7 51:6

52:4 59:12 62:8,9

65:8 67:5 95:10

102:17 107:8,19

108:10 114:1

118:18 125:20

130:14 131:7

141:6 142:8 149:6

152:5 167:5 173:4

175:6 180:19

182:13 198:5

202:12 215:4,13

224:5 230:18

231:14 237:19

244:13 246:18

249:15 262:4,18

262:18 264:14

things 3:8 4:21

5:15,20 8:10 13:4

14:12 15:10 26:11

35:1 53:9 72:15

73:9 76:18,20

83:16 85:8 88:18

93:11 95:11,13

104:17 113:4

114:15 119:15

121:20 133:5

134:8 140:16

144:5 152:10

167:7 170:22

177:18 181:15

200:6 203:22

212:2,4 213:4

221:6 223:5,9,11

223:12 225:12

227:7 231:11

241:3 242:5,10,19

242:21 248:2,13

253:22 259:3

260:7 262:20

264:14

think 3:22 4:5,15

4:19,19 5:8,11 7:5

8:2,4,9,13,20 9:5

10:16,17 14:6,7

14:10 15:17,20

16:6 17:1,2,14

18:2,11,15,17

19:1,12 20:3,6,11

21:7,9,16 22:4,5,8

22:14 25:2,7,17

27:9,10,18 28:15

28:22 29:7 30:19

30:22 31:2,5,9,12

31:13 32:1 33:2

33:17 34:14 35:3

35:4,7,21 36:1,12

36:13,15 37:3

38:1,5 39:5 40:7

41:6,18,19 43:19

43:19 44:3,4 45:9

45:18,21 46:6

47:7 48:22 49:1

52:22 55:17 56:18

56:19 59:16 60:18

61:6,21 62:1,10

62:11,14,14 64:11

64:18,21 65:15,16

65:16,19 66:2,3

66:21 67:6 68:13

74:6 77:9 78:8

79:15,19 86:3

87:15 88:4,9,10

89:15,17 91:2,4

91:12,17,19 92:3

93:8,9 94:19

95:11 96:7,20,20

97:2,18 98:22

99:8 101:11 102:1

103:13,14 104:12

104:13,15 105:10

105:21 106:19,22

107:12,15 109:6

110:17,19 112:3

113:19 114:14,22

116:8,19 118:11

119:15 120:18

122:17 124:5,7

125:6 126:3,14,20

127:12 128:20,22

130:3,5,12 131:5

134:11 136:5,10

136:11 137:3,21

138:1,19 141:22

142:19 143:17

147:18 151:3

153:3,5,6,21,21

154:21 155:4,8,10

155:14,22 156:7

157:5,12 160:4,5

160:8,17 161:1

162:11,13 163:1,8

164:8,18,20 165:1

166:1,1,6,13,14

166:15 167:3,21

168:21 170:21

171:2 172:10,12

173:3 176:10,13

177:3,9,15 178:2

178:4,10,12,20

179:21 180:9

182:14 183:9

192:3,18 196:6,14

196:16 203:8,20

204:21 205:13,18

206:1,6,12,13,15

206:22 207:4,16

208:18,18 209:2,3

209:19 211:2,4,20

211:21 213:1

215:3,5,12,15

216:7 217:5,17

219:2 220:9,10,13

221:2,4,16,22

222:9,22 223:14

223:17,19 224:2

225:9,18 226:6,10

227:1,1 229:8

231:8,13 232:13

233:19 235:13

236:21 237:3

238:13,21 239:8

239:12,18 240:2

241:4,12 244:6

245:3,5,9 246:2,7

246:8,8,10,11,11

246:22 247:2,15

249:8 254:13,15

259:15 260:13

261:2,21 262:17

263:12

thinking 15:1

19:18 22:18 24:5

32:2 86:5 88:17

89:13 106:6 108:6

149:14 184:12

210:14 217:10

225:10 229:4

245:16 246:9

thinks 230:19

third 67:3

thought 3:12 6:9,12

6:18 21:1 24:14

29:4 39:18 54:12

69:15 83:17 95:18

98:15 101:5 108:2

114:19 119:17

132:16 162:8

169:6 179:10,17

200:8 207:21

208:16 218:21

219:1 234:17

237:15 255:7

262:8

thoughts 103:9

207:19

three 22:6 23:4,5

24:2,20 26:20

46:5,15 47:2,12

140:17 150:15

198:14 199:10

203:17 204:3,6,21

232:7 240:16

three-year 23:6

threshold 71:6,9

75:6,7 78:4 101:8

166:14 169:12

212:13 215:16

217:2,4,5,14

222:3 227:8

231:16 241:19

thresholds 78:2

threw 125:20,22

throw 47:6 90:18

162:17

throwing 84:6

thrust 205:8

thumb 141:3

Tim 4:10 92:16

118:17 122:14

141:3 171:21

Tim's 171:8

time 11:20 12:3

14:6,9 16:14,17

16:20 18:19 19:14

22:19,20 24:2,19

25:1,17 31:22

35:21 73:17 74:7

76:4,8 79:15

85:17 86:1 98:1

105:9 139:9

141:12 151:1

152:6,7,8,17

174:18,21 175:7

175:12,18 176:9

176:10 177:19,22

178:5,18 179:7,19

187:15 190:17

197:5,13 203:6,11

203:11,13 204:11

208:6,8,9,11,14

209:13,17 210:15

210:20 213:17

214:4,11 218:2

223:4,11 225:11

243:16 246:13

262:15 264:12

timeline 22:18

26:19

timelines 24:10

times 74:13 97:22

197:17 200:5

TIMOTHY 1:14

tired 122:18

titled 72:19

today 8:4 11:8,14

30:13,20 38:3

113:19 153:3

192:19 197:20
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 295

205:9 236:1,9

256:5 257:14

told 78:9 81:7 83:1

145:12 197:17

213:15

tomorrow 22:16

116:5,14 198:16

201:19 202:11

247:21 265:4

tongue 204:22

tonight 160:3 161:3

161:4 162:5

169:10 261:1

tool 14:2 76:12

88:6

tools 74:2,3

top 141:14 152:17

153:16 194:16

195:2 196:10

252:7

top-down 235:15

topic 6:12 248:12

totality 96:21

totally 96:11 97:10

139:1 154:3

231:22

touch 153:20

touched 27:9

touching 9:12

town 101:18 195:10

205:12

townhouse 206:4

trace 169:18

track 10:9,21 11:21

12:9 18:18 19:6

27:12,21 124:21

133:6 159:2,17,22

171:1 178:3

192:20 202:14

213:18 245:1

tracked 9:1 150:2

176:2

tracking 12:1 16:9

21:12,13 123:10

125:15 176:21

177:20,20 184:14

185:14 186:14

191:2 203:22

tracks 11:8

tract 61:2

traction 101:3,12

101:13 223:18

trade 254:21 255:5

traditional 119:10

traffic 82:8,9

Train 251:15

training 69:4,8,12

69:19 84:15,20

85:3,7 86:5

trajectory 14:17

transaction 11:9

transactions 18:6

27:11,14 28:1,4

177:4,6 181:22

186:14

transfer 127:5

132:21 139:18,21

transfers 141:7

treat 170:16

tree 26:4

tri-fold 63:7

tried 26:10 192:12

trigger 216:18

220:7

triggers 71:1

trip 105:5

tripped 252:13

trouble 184:16

214:7 238:5

truck 174:13

185:20 251:14

trucks 194:6

true 192:12

trump 113:3

trust 246:3

trusting 221:13

truth 110:15

try 23:19 44:12

48:11 71:20 83:22

91:20 96:17 119:3

133:15 152:5

167:21 175:4,20

176:15 179:22

183:14 184:4

186:18 222:3

235:9 237:6 246:4

trying 8:21 15:17

16:5,10 19:2

20:18 23:20 25:12

27:18 30:3 54:13

65:7 76:11 78:12

82:9 85:15,19

88:5 95:1 96:21

101:13 107:16

112:1 122:13

155:2 185:21

196:18 205:21

206:21 211:21

213:5 219:6 222:9

223:2,6,7 238:13

241:6,12 242:13

242:14 245:5

249:8 263:10

turn 3:14 29:8 90:8

95:10 180:3

187:11 228:6

turning 25:5

190:21

turns 25:11

twice 42:5

two 26:17 78:2 82:1

95:13,21 105:5

108:3 115:14

119:2 123:6,10,22

134:7 140:16

142:17 167:7

168:6 182:1

190:19 191:3

198:3 208:20

232:7 248:12

261:11

TXV 144:20 155:18

type 16:21 22:9

44:9 50:22 54:5

199:11 214:3

228:17 239:8

typically 25:14

168:17 174:3,6,10

174:18,20 190:7

U

U.S 1:1,14,15 2:3

ultimately 49:22

unanimous 48:9

49:11 62:21 66:14

80:17 250:20

unanimously 48:4

49:6 70:15 120:5

uncased 126:18

uncharged 263:21

uncomfortable

20:8 48:12 110:11

undefined 55:4

undercut 118:13

underestimate 12:8

underneath 123:3

understand 37:12

41:17 42:9 48:22

53:20 55:5 62:3

82:21 84:1 111:7

114:7 122:14

124:22 126:8,17

131:17 132:18

133:4 134:13

142:10 155:7

156:16 157:16

164:21 165:1

175:21 176:3

183:10 184:13

185:10,12 193:3

207:20 220:17

223:15 224:8,21

225:5 239:12,21

241:2 263:13

understandable

156:12,16

understanding

42:20 72:14 95:14

115:19 145:5

239:9

understands 19:8

understood 145:12

148:4

undertake 113:7

undertaking 28:14

unfortunately

189:3 200:19

247:19

unintended 143:15

222:16

unique 194:2 237:5

unit 27:13 29:17

33:11 34:10 36:19

36:20 38:16 39:3

41:20 52:19 75:21

102:8 117:14

123:2,4,6,13,16

123:22 124:1,3,8

124:9,10,12,13,15

124:16,18 125:5,9

125:10,19 126:1,5

127:1,20 128:4,5

128:9,10 129:4,13

129:15,22 131:3,5

131:8,8,10,22

132:2,3,8,11,15

132:17,19 134:4,7

134:9,15 135:4,7

135:9,20,21

136:15 137:15,16

137:19 138:3,5,8

138:11,12 139:1

139:16 142:7,18

144:15,16,18

145:1,4,16,21

146:1,2,6,8,14,17

147:1,3,15 148:1

148:3,11,12,13

149:1,8,11,16,20

149:22 150:1,4,7

150:18 151:10,16

151:17 152:18,19

153:7 154:9,12,20

156:10 157:6,14

157:18 158:10

160:8 162:6 163:4

167:8,15 168:10

169:17,20 170:11

171:5 172:22

179:14 185:16

187:6,7,12 188:12

190:19,21 191:5

194:1 200:14

202:7,15 225:13

234:11 237:21

240:9 244:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 296

251:7 255:1 256:5

260:19,20,21

261:17,18,19

262:10,21 263:1,2

263:2,7,16

unit-evaporator

146:12

United 28:13 175:9

176:1 188:19

units 9:12,16 18:15

21:19,19 37:19

42:17 75:18 81:4

86:21 99:7,11

101:15 102:4

108:22 118:22

123:11,19 125:2

138:9 139:4

152:21 153:13,22

154:8 161:9 165:8

172:10,12 184:21

185:5,18 187:18

213:17 231:22

236:9 240:17

256:19 257:5,11

unlawful 244:14

unnamed 195:9

unnecessarily

220:13 221:17

245:19

unnecessary 82:19

221:22

unravel 23:18

unreasonable 91:5

205:20 225:9

unsuccessful

183:22

unusual 230:17

updated 259:11

upgraded 142:21

upgrading 142:20

upload 129:20

upper 225:5 250:14

upset 71:17

upstanding 206:20

upstate 199:9

249:22

upstream 226:8

URL 65:7,8

usable 156:11

use 17:21 18:1

38:20 39:11 44:17

50:19 53:10 55:5

62:4 65:10 74:1

75:11,16 82:8

87:22 88:6 99:8

99:10 101:21

105:12,19 114:16

133:12 147:4

160:21 174:4

182:4 183:13,15

212:2 214:15

240:6 263:8,9

useful 40:1

user 60:12,15 61:3

61:18,21 62:18

249:7

users 62:10

uses 21:9

usually 5:12 153:15

154:17,19 182:14

189:21 204:19

223:9,10

utilities 1:17 86:7

91:13 219:5

utility 92:4

utilize 177:11

V

vague 82:1

valid 127:20 150:8

208:19

validate 150:7

validation 150:3

Valley 250:14

value 107:18 114:6

135:2,16 197:4,18

valve 143:19

144:12 155:13

vantage 164:12

variable 36:22

variable-speed

36:20

varies 12:16

variety 3:7

various 76:19

238:18

vary 12:18 21:8

vast 206:19

verification 256:3

verify 217:13 265:2

version 64:6 203:9

versus 8:15 12:21

24:6 81:3 99:3

109:9 110:12

125:19 137:11

172:10,15 177:20

193:8 204:3

244:17 262:3

view 19:11 45:4

62:1 68:16 81:15

88:2 106:11

112:19 123:21

135:6 164:9 179:4

199:3 220:10

230:10 240:4

viewer 43:3

violate 96:12,15

violates 168:18

violation 10:1 95:6

100:3 113:1

122:10 172:14

212:19 219:10,13

220:6,19 221:4

226:2,15,17

227:15 228:2,18

228:19 229:8

234:18,20 235:2

239:4 247:22

248:22 249:11

250:17 251:2

252:9,15 258:3

violations 74:5

93:12 94:21 219:6

220:1 226:19

248:15

violator 168:14

violent 7:6

visit 196:17

voice 77:17

voices 99:2

volume 41:21 42:4

42:17

voluntary 64:5

65:14 66:2

volunteering 68:18

68:21

vote 30:7,22 32:13

32:16 38:2,6 48:8

48:10 49:11 60:5

92:13 112:6 115:6

202:4 250:18

voting 46:18 47:10

65:22 83:4 115:11

W

wait 5:17 61:17

120:18 218:16

waiting 74:22

114:2

walk 11:2 26:13

163:17 191:13

walking 183:7

walks 183:2

walls 206:4 209:8

want 4:3,8,21 5:13

6:10 7:12 8:22

12:2,7 13:5 15:6

16:7 17:20 18:16

19:22 20:4 24:15

26:1,13 30:6,9,15

31:10 32:18 34:8

35:2,21,22 37:12

37:16 38:8 39:22

41:4,19 42:8 45:2

45:22 47:5,6,8,9

47:15 48:17 51:13

53:12,19 54:15

55:4 56:18 58:21

60:9 61:20 62:6,7

62:8 64:3 65:21

67:19 68:8,8 72:7

74:16 75:11 78:10

78:12,16 81:8,12

83:4 86:4 88:3

91:13 92:12 95:7

95:10 98:20

102:16,19 103:3

103:11 104:14

106:5 111:8

112:15 114:11

115:4,5 116:5

119:7,17 120:19

124:12,20 125:4

125:12,14 126:17

126:21 127:9

128:5,7 131:20

136:3,12 137:5,6

137:13 140:7

142:21 143:21

149:16 153:6

155:3,6 156:15,15

156:16,18,22

157:2 158:14,15

158:15,15 159:2

162:8 163:17

164:14 165:9

168:4 175:20

176:14,16 177:7

179:3,7 180:6,7

183:3 195:20

196:4 198:6 201:9

202:6,8,19 204:9

205:3 206:11

209:10 211:4

212:9 213:2 216:1

216:11 217:1,4,8

217:14 218:12,22

222:13,16,18,19

223:12 224:4,9,20

225:2 228:9 231:8

231:17 232:22

233:20 238:22

239:4,8,12,20

242:9,15 244:5,15

245:9,18,22

246:17 247:6,10

248:7 249:10

254:2,14 256:10

260:3,9 261:3

263:8 264:2,3,10

264:22

wanted 3:11,19

19:8 41:9 55:14

97:6 198:19 251:4

252:18 259:18

260:19,21 261:1

wanting 4:16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 297

145:15 153:6

wants 32:19 41:7

62:3 83:8,11

114:5 150:19

174:7 214:6 229:8

231:14 244:14

warehouse 229:19

230:1 252:21

255:14,19

warranty 22:9

27:17 204:15

wary 118:13

Washington 1:11

80:8

wasn't 190:21

259:20

waste 76:8

water 48:16 170:7

waters 45:14

way 9:10 23:11

28:12 50:2,8 56:3

56:19 58:18 60:1

77:7,11,22 98:6

98:16 99:8,15,22

103:18,21 108:13

110:11,12 112:19

114:9 121:19

137:5 140:5

143:16 153:3,11

156:18 167:9

168:2 174:3 185:2

185:14,22 190:14

195:21 197:6,6,9

199:17 208:17

211:12 218:20

220:18 231:1

239:9 263:21

ways 20:22 92:5

93:9 96:22 105:6

we'll 7:13 30:21

47:17,18,22,22

62:13,21 63:16

65:10 66:15 69:3

70:5 71:11,15

73:7 74:10,19

79:5,10 80:3

81:10 110:21

111:1 117:12

174:14 175:13

197:14 202:11

207:12 208:11,15

214:2 224:4

242:21 246:10

247:3,4 257:3

262:3 265:4

we're 7:6 8:9 9:6

10:14 15:1 19:2

21:12,12 30:1,10

31:1,6,7 35:8 39:7

40:22 41:8 44:3

45:3,8,18 49:13

51:19 53:10,15

54:16 61:5,7 63:5

63:10 64:9 69:18

70:16 71:19,20

72:8,14,16 73:7

73:22 74:1 75:14

76:10,14,16,17

79:2,8,12,18

86:22 87:8 90:3,7

91:2 92:4 95:2

101:2,8 108:1,6

112:1,20 114:8

123:6,10 125:2,14

125:21 129:19

131:6 133:7 136:5

137:12 141:18

142:10 143:17

145:20 148:10

149:6,14 151:3

152:1,13 154:4

155:1 157:10

159:15 160:21

163:2 165:4 166:3

166:3 167:15

171:19 172:3

174:15 175:5

176:14,17 177:2,4

178:17 191:21,22

192:5 193:16

200:3 202:7 203:7

205:11 210:4,14

211:5 212:5,18

223:2,6,7,8,10,14

223:22 224:1

232:9,13 237:6

240:2,7,22 242:12

242:14,17 247:4

249:8 250:17

252:8 256:9,20

258:19 259:18

260:6 261:15

262:1,22 263:11

263:22

we've 8:13 20:16

26:6,13 27:2 31:8

40:21 42:9,12

45:1,5,6 48:1,6

67:9 70:22 86:11

95:4 96:1 116:15

134:16 142:3,5

147:15 193:5

197:19 200:4,19

206:13 219:5

223:20 227:13

248:2 253:16

257:1

weak 106:16

webinar 67:4,9

69:19

webinars 67:12,19

70:8

website 63:1,4,19

64:1,7,7,14,17

77:18 239:2,22

254:19,20

Wednesday 1:7

week 8:8 12:14

22:5 27:10 71:6

95:18 125:18

152:11 227:8

weekend 3:9

weeks 137:8 140:16

140:17,17 193:5

went 7:16 36:5 51:1

66:18 117:4 172:1

172:1 200:22

265:7

weren't 126:17

182:11

whatsoever 41:6

wheels 25:5

White 2:7 43:1,1

43:18 46:22 56:8

56:8 69:21,21

70:9 83:14,14

85:6 107:2,2

125:16,16 127:12

140:13,14 146:9,9

147:13,13 148:6,9

149:4 150:10,10

152:3 156:9,20

167:1,1 188:20

194:3,3 204:20,21

208:21,22 255:21

255:21 261:9,10

261:13,21

who've 133:14

wholesaler 195:8

wholesalers 194:22

wide 12:16 104:2

Wikipedia 214:15

wild 150:16

willing 69:3 78:17

83:2 97:18 106:14

176:15 180:3

215:20 216:10

willingness 18:18

18:21

win 244:18

Winningham 2:8

34:13,14,19 39:15

127:16 128:11

147:7 165:22

257:13

wires 54:7

wish 176:4 232:8

wonder 97:11

122:1

wondered 77:15

wondering 190:3

word 41:19 50:5,6

50:14,15 51:7,8

60:11 70:22 72:7

73:17 104:9

117:21 126:15

127:10,15 138:21

160:21 244:17

245:3 248:7,11

261:22 262:16

worded 103:19

239:10

wording 162:5

211:3 214:18,19

words 41:8 133:12

263:8

wordsmithed 49:21

wordsmithing

120:1

work 7:3 9:7,7

19:18 26:9 79:16

93:18,21 98:19

106:20 134:22

135:10,18 137:2

143:7,10 161:4

164:16 176:15

178:16 179:9,11

194:22 197:14

226:11 234:15

241:16 247:18

253:14 255:15

257:3 259:13

263:8 264:2

worked 19:5 42:19

44:6 104:19

working 1:3 4:20

9:11 80:10,11

82:15 93:11 181:3

227:6

works 42:16 143:5

165:15 174:3,19

179:1 194:6 233:5

235:9

world 63:11 72:10

worms 147:17

worried 39:7 87:3

159:15 181:15

222:4 262:12

263:14

worth 24:6 191:4

worthless 79:5

worthwhile 181:14

would've 81:19

wouldn't 5:21 23:7

60:20 101:7 107:9
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 298

111:16 162:15

180:6 190:13

216:6,20 250:5

write 51:15 208:5

writing 37:7 62:12

208:10

written 59:1

110:12,12 252:9

wrong 76:21 81:17

90:2 99:7,12

108:10 139:3

142:13 162:18

185:16 217:11

228:18 229:16

233:17,20 234:6

234:10

X

X 174:6,6 191:18

233:6

Xerox 14:13

XYZ 43:4,6,8

Y

Y 174:7 191:18

224:12,14

yeah 47:16 59:2

168:20

year 22:13 91:6

108:3 136:14

191:21 205:15,15

235:21

years 22:6 23:4,5

24:6,15,15,20,22

98:19 108:3

131:13 136:16

154:19 179:9

203:12,14,15

204:3,6 207:1

210:18 212:11

232:7 246:14

yesterday 174:17

258:4

York 199:9 250:1,4

Z

ZIP 259:8

0

06 176:11

089 1:10

1

1 1:8 66:15 151:10

151:11 174:1

186:19 187:2

210:2 231:20

232:2,3

1:07 66:19

1:59 117:4

10 5:12,16,17 7:14

23:9 70:17 136:14

143:8

10-SEER 136:15

136:20

10,000 18:9 28:12

175:9

10:38 7:17

1000 1:10

11 70:17 75:3 80:16

11:07 36:5

11:33 36:6

12 23:9 25:10 80:17

181:5 204:17

12.8 255:22

12:04 66:18

13 9:12,16 21:18

27:21 57:9 91:22

98:5 147:12

148:15 161:8

166:8 172:9

184:20 185:4,9,18

186:18 187:12

215:21 216:2,5

224:11,12,20

230:12 232:17

233:9,21 234:11

234:14,16 236:9

236:10,15 243:9

256:1,20 257:7

13's 101:19

13-SEER 136:21

13.6 46:4

13s 8:16 168:2,6

224:15 230:22

233:12,13 234:8

14 21:18 27:22

29:11,15,17 33:21

40:1 41:12,14

42:12 43:9,14

45:4,11,12 46:3,4

47:11 62:10 91:22

98:5 120:10 143:4

143:5 146:3,20

147:12 148:7,14

148:18,18,21

149:9 151:2

158:19 165:11

166:16 167:14

168:10,11 169:12

172:10 187:7

224:20 236:13

251:8,8,18 253:5

255:14,16 256:15

256:15,18 257:7

261:18,20

14-Seer 128:9

136:21 146:7

161:8 162:15

163:4 166:10

14.0 166:16

14.2 165:13

14.2s 165:16

14.4 167:10

14.5 38:17 167:10

14.5s 165:16

14.8s 165:17

14s 168:1

15 163:13,20

165:10 167:13

172:4,10,20,22

174:18 187:7

208:13

15-minute 171:20

15-SEER 164:7

15.2 167:19

15s 168:1

16 147:12 166:11

172:22

16-SEER 168:17

17 165:7 211:5,11

18 75:5 165:7 187:6

187:14 211:1,8

212:12 214:22

247:21

19 165:7

1976 209:6

1st 12:5 210:11

235:20,21

2

2:09 117:5

20 12:17 17:5,21

18:1,7 86:15

247:21 250:19

2014 1:8 12:6

187:18

2015 174:2 187:2

187:19 232:20

2016 186:19 231:21

232:3 235:21

236:9

2017 231:20

2020 191:22

21 165:7 251:1

264:2

23-SEER 165:8

3

3 23:9

3-ton 129:20

3:01 172:1

3:15 171:20

3:18 172:2

30 174:18 208:1,8

209:8,16

30-day 210:6,9

30th 231:21

4

4 48:7 151:10

4:55 265:7

430 139:3,7

430.2 124:2 132:17

132:19 133:13

138:8 139:5

438.32(c) 50:11

45 208:13

5

5 48:7 49:14 61:13

151:11

5:00 116:14

50 191:3

500 43:4,6,8

6

6 23:9 25:10 62:22

608 188:22

7

7 62:22

75 17:11 181:21

183:5

8

8 25:10

8:00 265:4

80 17:11 18:5 21:22

156:12

800 66:6

8E 1:10

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

299

Central A/C Regional Standards

Enforcement Working Group

US DOE

10-01-14

Washington, DC