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EGYPT: CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR

U.S. POLICY

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JUNE 15, 2016

Serial No. 114–194

Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/ or

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/

(II)

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman 

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey 

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida 

DANA ROHRABACHER, California 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

MATT SALMON, Arizona 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

PAUL COOK, California 

RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

TED S. YOHO, Florida 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin 

DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan 

LEE M. ZELDIN, New York 

DANIEL DONOVAN, New York 

ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

KAREN BASS, California 

WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

ALAN GRAYSON, Florida 

AMI BERA, California 

ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California 

GRACE MENG, New York 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii 

JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania

AMY PORTER, Chief of Staff THOMAS SHEEHY, Staff Director

JASON STEINBAUM, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida, Chairman 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

TED S. YOHO, Florida 

CURT CLAWSON, Florida 

DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan 

LEE M. ZELDIN, New York 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

ALAN GRAYSON, Florida 

GRACE MENG, New York 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page

WITNESSES 

The Honorable Mark Green, president, International Republican Institute ...... 7

Mr. Mokhtar Awad, research fellow, Program on Extremism, Center for Cyber 

and Homeland Security, George Washington University ................................. 17

Ms. Amy Hawthorne, deputy director for research, Project on Middle East 

Democracy ............................................................................................................. 28

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

The Honorable Mark Green: Prepared statement ................................................ 9

Mr. Mokhtar Awad: Prepared statement ............................................................... 19

Ms. Amy Hawthorne: Prepared statement ............................................................ 30

APPENDIX 

Hearing notice .......................................................................................................... 60

Hearing minutes ...................................................................................................... 61

The Honorable David Cicilline, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Rhode Island: Prepared statement ................................................................. 62

(1)

EGYPT: CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES 

FOR U.S. POLICY 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2016

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in room 

2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen 

(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. The subcommittee will come to order. 

After recognizing myself and Mr. Deutch, the ranking member, 

for 5 minutes each for our opening statements, I will then recognize other members seeking recognition for 1 minute. We will then 

hear from our witnesses. And you will notice an empty seat, but 

she is coming right over, getting through security. 

Without objection, the witnesses’ prepared statements will be 

made a part of the record. Members may have 5 days to insert 

statements and questions for the record subject to the length limitation in the rules. 

And the Chair now recognizes herself for 5 minutes. 

This is the third hearing of our subcommittee that we have had 

on Egypt in a little over a year, demonstrating the importance of 

and our subcommittee’s commitment to Egypt’s role in a volatile region, as well as the concern of our members that they have on current U.S. policy toward our ally. 

The political, economic, and security challenges that Egypt is facing right now, they are numerous, they are interdependent. It is 

extremely difficult, for example, for President Sisi to make necessary structural reforms to Egypt’s economy without potentially 

undermining the fragile political support he is leaning on to bring 

much-needed stability to the country. 

Conversely, if these economic reforms are not made soon, we may 

see a return of the unrest that we saw on Egyptian streets not too 

long ago. And it is in this context that Egypt is facing growing security threats from an expanding ISIS and its Sinai Province affiliate, from al-Qaeda-linked groups, from militias, from extremists in 

Libya, and from particularly violent factions of the Muslim Brotherhood. Sinai Province has formed terrorist cells that are targeting 

both Egyptian and Israeli military personnel and civilians, and has 

already killed hundreds of Egyptian soldiers is continuing to target 

the peacekeeping operations or the MFO, Multinational Force of 

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Observers in the Sinai, prompting the Pentagon to reposition U.S. 

troops and reconsider its presence there. 

There is more and more evidence that ISIS is attempting to link 

its operations in the Sinai and eastern Egypt to its presence in the 

Western Desert that sits along the extremely porous border with 

Libya. And there are growing reports of increased activity in southern Egypt and the Nile Valley, including in greater Cairo, which 

has seen IEDs and shootings like the one that claimed the lives of 

eight Egyptian policemen last month. 

While Egypt has been trying to keep up with these threats, it is 

increasingly clear that Egypt must also adopt a counterinsurgency 

approach that will allow it to get a handle on the problem before 

it gets worse. 

While the security situation remains a high priority, I am extremely concerned by the government’s attitude toward human 

rights, its crackdowns on civil society, its quashing of dissent. I was 

disappointed to see that the government froze the assets of yet another NGO just yesterday as part of an ongoing case which began 

in 2011 and targeted U.S. NGOs like IRI, whose president joins us 

here today. 

Forty-three NGO workers in this case were unjustly convicted in 

2013, as we all remember, and I continue to call on President Sisi 

to do everything in his power, including working with the Egyptian 

Parliament and with the judicial system to find a way to pardon 

these workers as soon as possible. The government needs to find 

a way to open up civil society and allow Egyptians to participate 

and thrive in public life or risk exacerbating the very problems it 

is trying to avoid. 

In Egypt, the economy is perhaps the biggest challenge of all. Infusions of cash from the Gulf States, especially from Saudi Arabia, 

as well as loans from the World Bank, the IMF, and others, have 

managed to keep the economy afloat for the time being. But these 

investments aren’t likely to stimulate growth in the long term, and 

the government has to make difficult structural reforms like reducing the bloated public payroll and passing the long-promised valueadded tax. Unemployment, especially among youth, remains high, 

and around 60 percent of the population is poor and living on subsidies. 

One bright spot on the economy horizon has been the EgyptianAmerican Enterprise Fund, which Congress authorized in 2012 and 

has been successfully investing in Egypt’s private sector to create 

jobs and support sustainable development. 

The Enterprise Fund, as with all the aid that Congress has appropriated, is an example of how much the United States wants to 

help Egypt as both an ally and a strong supporter of peace in that 

troubled region. But the Egyptian Government also needs to help 

us help them, and that includes allowing our Economic Support 

Funds, or ESF monies, to be programmed. As of March 31, there 

is a backlog of approximately $900 million in ESF for Egypt because the government has held up permits for our implementing 

partners on everything from democracy and governance to education and health care. 

That is why I was happy to sign a letter this month, alongside 

Chairman Royce, Ranking Member Engel, and the co-chairs of the 

3

Tunisia Caucus, asking the Secretary of State to reprogram up to 

$20 million of this money for Tunisia. This is not meant to be a 

slight against Egypt, but it makes little sense to continue letting 

these funds sit in the pipeline when they can be spent somewhere 

else. Someplace like Tunisia, which is in desperate need of the 

funds and is willing to let us help. 

Egypt is an important strategic ally that is struggling on a number of fronts, and as we discuss the challenges and opportunities 

for U.S. policy here today, I continue to believe that the best way 

to help is through encouragement and assistance as a friend. 

And with that, I am pleased to yield to the ranking member, Mr. 

Deutch of Florida. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and 

thanks for our witnesses for appearing today. 

First, I want to thank you, Madam Chairman, and Mr. Connolly 

for commissioning a series of GAO reports on our assistance to 

Egypt. The most recent report issued in April highlighted some of 

the serious challenges faced by Department of Defense and the Department of State in securing compliance from the Egyptian Government on end-use monitoring of our assistance. And I find this 

troubling. When we work together in partnership with the government, that government should not be hindering our ability to ensure that our assistance is going to where it is meant to go and 

doing what it is meant to do. 

Second, I want to unequivocally state that I value the U.S.-Egypt 

relationship. I value Egypt’s role in the region. I want to see the 

Egyptian people prosper. And I particularly want to thank the 

Egyptian Foreign Ministry for the condolences it sent to the victims 

of the horrific terror attack in the chairman and my home State 

just days ago. 

But it is becoming increasingly difficult to discuss the U.S.-Egypt 

relationship outside its security context, and so while I have supported and I continue to support the Sisi government and the 

President’s commitment to fighting terror and keeping peace in the 

region, I am quite troubled by the direction of the country when it 

comes to civil society and human rights. I do understand that it 

can be challenging to balance security and human rights. 

Egypt is coming out of a period of great turmoil. As Egypt’s leaders look around the region, they see numerous threats to stability, 

and there is no doubt that we share our Egyptian partners’ commitment to preventing ISIS and its affiliates from dominating 

Sinai, but I urge our friends not to silence the discourse on human 

rights. Engage with civil society, democracy, and human right activists. Work together. Have the tough conversations. A lack of inclusive governing will yield greater instability. 

One area I am deeply concerned about is the foreign funding of 

the NGOs’ case. Now, this subcommittee has held many hearings 

on the arrest, trial, and conviction of the 43 NGO employees. Mr. 

Green, you have been present for several of those hearings. The 

idea that the government is now going to reopen the NGO trial and 

add new defendants is deeply disturbing. The only reason this case 

should be reopened is to pardon each and every one of the 43 individuals. And I want to commend the chair for continued advocacy 

on behalf of those who were so wrongfully convicted in this case. 

4

President Sisi has been tasked with the difficult job of reviving 

Egypt’s economy after years of mismanagement. I want to commend him for taking seriously recommendations for reform from 

the World Bank and the IMF. Last year, the economy grew at its 

fastest rate since 2010. Buoyed by generous financial support from 

the gulf, Egypt has found some economic relief. But diminished foreign currency reserves are making it increasingly difficult to import 

fuel and food, and water shortages are beginning to impact rural 

areas. The government must continue to work with international financial institutions to push ahead with necessary reforms to meet 

these challenges. 

On the security front, Egypt faces dangerous threats from the 

Sinai. I commend the Egypt military for its commitment to rooting 

out terrorism and to taking seriously the need to improve government services and infrastructure for the people of Sinai. 

I extend condolences to the dozens of Egyptian soldiers and their 

families who have lost their lives fighting this terrorism, and President Sisi deserves to be commended for speaking out against violent Islamic extremism. 

In addition, I want to thank the Egyptian Government for its 

continued cooperation with Israel in the Sinai and its continuing 

efforts to prevent Hamas from using tunnels to smuggle dangerous 

weapons to Gaza. 

President Sisi has made clear his interest in brokering peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and both have welcomed his involvement in the process with trust-building on both sides. He can 

be a strong voice for two states living side by side in peace and security. 

Our $1.3 billion of security assistance to Egypt is critical in the 

fight against ISIS both in the Sinai and in Libya. The fragile political situation in Libya has created space for ISIS to use Libya as 

a training ground for its fighters. To that end, assisting Egypt in 

controlling its 1,100 kilometer border with Libya is essential to preventing ISIS fighters from launching cross-border attacks or using 

Egypt as a transit point to the greater Middle East. 

I applaud the administration’s recognition of the need to refocus 

our assistance on counterterrorism. The threats facing Egypt are 

not countered with tanks and planes alone but with a strong intelligence apparatus and regional and bilateral intelligence-sharing, 

and we have a real opportunity here to help Egypt confront and 

root out terrorism. 

I want to see the people of Egypt succeed. I want to see the future of Egypt that so many millions poured into the streets demanding. I believe President Sisi wants his country and his people 

to thrive, but to do so will take real political will to confront terrorism to reform the economy and to give space for civil society to 

grow and to thrive. These are not easy tasks, nor are they accomplished without the support of the United States. 

And I look to our witnesses today to help us better understand 

how we can be an effective partner for Egypt while continuing to 

advocate for the basic human rights and values that this country 

was founded upon. And with that, I yield back. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Well said. Thank you so much, Mr. Deutch. 

5

I will now recognize members for statements that they would like 

to make. 

Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Thank you, Chairman Ileana 

Ros-Lehtinen and Ranking Member Deutch, for holding this important hearing. 

Over the last decade, Egypt has been faced with political and social instability. Egypt has been and will continue to be a valued 

ally in an unstable region in support of American interests and 

worldwide interests in the global war on terrorism. I am grateful 

my son Julian served with the Army National Guard in Egypt with 

Operation Bright Star, an indication of U.S.-Egyptian cooperation. 

And he was impressed by the talented citizens of Egypt. 

I believe that we need to continue our military and economic support while we closely monitor whether the money that is being provided is wisely spent. Egypt continues to face a growing threat 

from Islamic terrorists, most recently, the Egypt Air flight that was 

destroyed in the eastern Mediterranean Sea to the Metrojet flight 

that exploded over the Sinai on October 31, killing 209 Russian 

tourists. 

Egypt exists within a very dangerous neighborhood, and it is 

very critical that we maintain our support, also maintaining our 

moral responsibilities, promoting IRI as a very positive NGO. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses regarding how the 

United States can help ensure that Egypt is back on track to be 

a success for prosperity for its citizens. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much, and congratulations 

on your son’s military service. It is a long tradition there. Good for 

you, Joe. 

Mr. Connolly of Virginia. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you for 

our collaboration on the GAO report our friend Deutch cited. 

I think, you know, the relationship with Egypt is a critical relationship. It has got to be one we work out. But American patience 

is not unlimited, and the Egyptian leverage on the relationship is 

also not unlimited. There is a desire in this country and a growing 

desire in this body to hold the current Egyptian Government accountable for human rights violations, accountable for security infringements, accountable for how it treats civil society, especially 

the NGOs we have worked with. 

I met with a lot of those NGOs when I was in Cairo, and I think 

the Egyptian Government was counting on the United States once 

the Americans got out of the country to frankly wash their hands 

of the Egyptian staff and volunteers of these NGOs. That is not the 

case, and I hope this hearing makes that very clear. And I know 

Ambassador Green is going to make that point. We stand by those 

brave young men and women who were trying to make for a better 

society in their own country, and I know we are going to hear more 

about that in this hearing. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Connolly. Thank you very 

much. 

Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher. We are pleased to recognize you for 

any opening statement you might make. 

6

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Thank you very much for holding this hearing, and I appreciate you and the ranking member and the work 

that you have put into this. 

Let me just note that I am a co-chairman with the Egyptian Caucus, and as such I have been to Egypt a number of times in recent 

days. And let me just state for the record that I believe that President el-Sisi and the democratic people in Egypt who want to have 

a legitimate democratic government are under attack by forces that 

would murder them. 

So whatever we are doing when we are talking about Egypt, let’s 

understand we are talking about people who are fighting forces 

that would murder them and create a caliphate that would be allied with terrorists. In fact, if President el-Sisi and his efforts are 

defeated, you could expect a collapse of resistance to this radical Islamic terrorist movement that threatens the world. 

They are at an equivalent of where we were at immediately after 

Pearl Harbor. The fact is what did we do when we were under attack? Yes, there were things that we would never tolerate in our 

society today. We put large numbers of American citizens, Japanese-Americans in camps. Yes, that did not indicate what type of 

government, what type of country we had, but it did indicate that 

we were at war with an enemy that had murdered our own people 

and would continue to do so. 

That is what is going on in Egypt today. Those people are on the 

front lines. President el-Sisi and his democratic allies and the moderate Muslim community there are under attack by the very same 

terrorists that would again create a caliphate and threaten the entire world. We have faced this terrorism here. We have faced it in 

Orlando. We have faced it in San Bernardino. We have faced it at 

the Boston Marathon. 

This radical Islamic terrorism threat to the world is something 

that we need to recognize. And we need to recognize that people 

like President el-Sisi and the good people of Egypt are on the front 

lines, and we need to back them as much as we can so that we 

can—because we know if they lose, we lose. 

Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher. 

Ms. Frankel of Florida. 

Ms. FRANKEL. Madam Chair, I thank the witnesses for being 

here, and I would like to hear what they have to say so I yield back 

to you. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much, Ms. Frankel. 

And, Dr. Yoho of Florida? 

Mr. YOHO. No comment. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Okay. Thank you so much to our witnesses. 

First, we are pleased to welcome back a great friend of our subcommittee, Ambassador Mark Green, a former colleague of ours. 

He is the president of the International Republican Institute. He 

is a former U.S. Ambassador to Tanzania and served as a Member 

of Congress representing Wisconsin’s Eighth District from ’97 to 

2007. It is always a delight to see you, Mr. Ambassador. I love following you on Twitter. 

Next, we welcome Mr.—I am going to try my best—Mokhtar 

Awad, who is a research fellow in the Program on Extremism at 

7

George Washington University’s Center for Cyber and Homeland 

Security. Prior to this, Mr. Awad worked as a Research Associate 

at the Center for American Progress. We welcome you to our subcommittee, Mr. Awad. 

And lastly, we welcome Ms. Amy Hawthorne, who is the deputy 

director for research at the Project on Middle East Democracy. 

Prior to this, Ms. Hawthorne served as a resident senior fellow 

with the Atlantic Council’s Middle East Program where she focused 

on U.S. policy toward Egypt. We welcome you also, Ms. Hawthorne. 

We are pleased to have all of you here today. As I had said, your 

statements will be made a part of the record, and we will now hear 

your synthesized version starting with our friend Mark. 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MARK GREEN, PRESIDENT, 

INTERNATIONAL REPUBLICAN INSTITUTE 

Ambassador GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member 

Deutch, and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to testify. And I also want to thank you for the tremendous 

support that you have shown, that all of you have shown relating 

to Egypt’s indefensible NGO foreign funding trial. 

As you know and as has been alluded to, Egypt wrongfully and 

outrageously convicted 43 innocent staff from IRI, NDI, Freedom 

House, and others. And I am grateful that you continue to make 

pardons for these victims your highest priority in discussions with 

the top Egyptian officials. 

One year ago, Madam Chair, I testified on Tunisia’s democratic 

tradition. I offered optimism about the progress it was making and 

suggested that it deserved additional support. I wish I could be 

similarly optimistic here today, but sadly, I believe that Egypt is 

moving on an uncertain and dangerous trajectory. 

There is no doubt, as many of you have said, that Egypt remains 

a very important ally and strategic partner for America’s interests 

in that part of the world, but there is also little doubt, however, 

that the problems that are in Egypt continue to get worse. Polarization and the threat of extremism are on the rise. President Sisi’s 

counterterrorism campaign is making precious little headway in 

my opinion while risking even greater alienation of the local population. Instead of forging an effective effort to root out extremists 

and extremism, I worry that the government’s primary response 

seems to be an even greater crackdown on dissent. 

There has been an increase in extrajudicial forced disappearances, over 1,800 reported cases in 2015 alone. Mass trials and collective convictions based on vague charges of harming national interests have become the norm. 

Madam Chair, it is my strong belief in IRI’s long experience that 

counterterrorism and military operations alone will never be a sufficient response to genuine real extremist threats that they face. 

Egypt needs to enlist the help of its civil society, not crush it. It 

should avoid measures like its 2013 anti-protest law that curtails 

citizens’ ability to participate peacefully in public meetings or its 

2015 counterterrorism law that punishes journalists who stray 

from official government narratives. President Sisi has defended 

the crackdown on civil society calling it fourth generation warfare, 

the notion that media and civil society groups that aren’t lockstep 

8

with the government are somehow waging war against the Egypt 

State. 

Madam Chair, history warns us of the dangers when conspiracy 

theory becomes official policy. Just ask those 43 wrongly convicted 

NGO workers who are still unable to travel freely in some parts 

of the world, and the Egyptian staff who have been cut off from 

their families over these years. Now, the Egyptian Government appears to be doubling down on its approach. As was mentioned, it 

has reopened and apparently widened the NGO case with as many 

as 47 Egyptian and international organizations now being threatened with criminal prosecution. 

But despite this bleak picture, IRI and other international organizations still hope that Egypt will one day reclaim its strong civil 

society and citizen-responsive government traditions. At IRI we 

continue to work with peaceful democratic Egyptians through programs taking place offshore in third country locations. We still 

hope to assist civil society and political party reformers to improve 

governance and to combat the alienation and anger that extremism 

depends upon. We are proud that, despite the many obvious challenges, a recent independent evaluation of our Egypt programs 

found promising results and reason for continued engagement. 

Madam Chair, I respectfully offer the following recommendations 

for the subcommittee to consider: First, since Egyptian obstinacy 

has apparently created a backlog of U.S.-Egypt assistance funds to 

the tune of $700 million or more, I would urge the U.S. to redirect 

much of that backlog to places where significant democratic strides 

are being made, places like Tunisia. 

Second, the funds that are going to Egypt I believe a significant 

portion of that should be used to engage democratic actors and 

build their skills for a future democratic breakthrough. 

And then finally, U.S. administration officials, Members of Congress, and staff at every level should continue to raise the foreign 

funding case at every opportunity. We should make it clear that reopening the case and expanding it is unconditionally unacceptable. 

And of course, continue to insist that the only solution to the 2013 

verdict is full pardons by President Sisi. 

Madam Chair, a recent Economist article suggested that if Egypt 

does well, it can lift the region, whereas its collapse would represent a threat to the entire Middle East and Europe. I would add 

the United States to that list as well. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

[The prepared statement of Ambassador Green follows:]

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Very good. Thank you, Ambassador Green. 

Mr. Awad. 

STATEMENT OF MR. MOKHTAR AWAD, RESEARCH FELLOW, 

PROGRAM ON EXTREMISM, CENTER FOR CYBER AND HOMELAND SECURITY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY 

Mr. AWAD. Madam Chairperson, Ranking Member Deutch, members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to be here 

to talk about security in Egypt. In fact, I have recently returned 

from a long research trip to that country where we have met with 

colleagues, top security officials, and went to areas like the Western Desert and Suez Canal area to see the situation there on the 

ground for ourselves. I am going to provide a threat assessment of 

the situation in Egypt with some relevant recommendations. 

The most important thing to understand is that Egypt is facing 

what is the deadliest and most lethal, complex insurgency in its 

modern history. Since the Muslim Brotherhood was ousted from 

power in July 2013, at least 900 security service members lost their 

lives to an array of terrorist groups seeking to topple the government. The threat in Egypt comes from three different geographic 

theaters and three different types of groups. 

First, there is northeastern Sinai where Islamic State-affiliated 

militants wage insurgency against the Egyptian Government and 

poses severe threat to Egypt and Israel. 

The second is in the Nile Valley, the heart of Egypt, where 97 

percent of the population lives. There, also Islamic State-affiliated 

elements, some al-Qaeda elements, although small in number, and 

other violent Islamist groups suspected to be affiliated with some 

members inside the Muslim Brotherhood, also seek to topple the 

government there. 

Finally, the Western Desert with the vast border with Libya, the 

Islamic State is attempting to build a presence there. 

Let me focus a little bit on the situation in Sinai. You will find 

in my written testimony detailed information on the Nile Valley 

and the Western Desert. The situation in the Sinai continues to be 

quite challenging. Since the fall of 2014, the local jihadist group 

called Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, or the Champions or Supporters of 

Jerusalem, saw its capabilities increase significantly as it pledged 

allegiance to the Islamic State. Since then, they were able to 

launch large-scale defensives on the ground, culminating in a July 

1, 2015, attack that attempted to hold parts of the city called 

Sheikh Zuweid in North Sinai. Only after a 12-hour-plus battle and 

the intervention of Egyptian F-16s was the jihadist threat neutralized. 

Since then, Egyptians launched a massive counteroffensive that 

has had some successes. It should be noted that the jihadists in 

North Sinai do not control any population centers. Also, their areas 

of operation have largely been contained. Despite these successes, 

they have shifted their tactics and have used more IEDs and focused on terrorist attacks like the downing of the Russian airliner 

in October 2015. As a result, the first quarter of 2016 is the deadliest 3 months on record for Egyptian troops in North Sinai. The 

frequency of attacks has also increased, but again, they have not 

18

been back to the same quality of capabilities that they had prior 

to July. 

Quickly, on the Nile Valley and the Western Desert, the most important things to understand there is that the situation is comparatively better compared to the Sinai. With that being said, although 

the government has had great successes in the Nile Valley, cracking down on some of the violent Islamists connected to the Muslim 

Brotherhood and al-Qaeda, the Islamic state has recently been attempting to bring armed insurgency closer to Cairo. However, these 

attempts have been thus far checked. 

And finally, of course, in the Western Desert smugglers continue 

to operate, and as pressure increases against the Islamic State in 

Libya, they are more likely going to look more into the Western 

Desert to find ways to entrench themselves there. 

Finally, let me offer some recommendations. I think for these 

reasons a continued security relationship with Egypt is of course 

important for U.S. strategic interests in the region. However, the 

relationship should reflect the changing nature of the challenges 

Egypt faces in confronting asymmetric threats from non-state actors and advance U.S. interests. The Obama administration announced that starting in Fiscal Year 2018 the U.S. will channel 

FMF funds toward procurement in four categories. Counterterrorism, border, maritime, and Sinai security is a good basis for the 

future of the FMF program. This pathway for updating U.S.-Egypt 

cooperation is sound and will require close coordination and support between Congress and the administration in order to implement it effectively. 

The U.S.-Egypt relationship requires new anchors that go beyond 

security but also requires updating the security relationship. It 

should be built on mutual trust, respect, and frankness. The 

United States should encourage Cairo to implement a comprehensive counterinsurgency strategy in the Sinai that integrates technologies and training with economic development and tribal outreach in order to effectively defeat terrorist elements, all while 

minimizing collateral damage. Both governments should ensure 

that defense officials are able to discuss issues related to 

counterinsurgency frankly and be granted the access necessary to 

adequately provide training and assistance. 

More cooperation is also needed with Egypt’s General Intelligence Directorate and to the Ministry of Interior, specifically the 

State Security. These institutions are key actors in Egypt’s fight 

against terror and thus warrant this further engagement. 

Egypt should implement a comprehensive counterterrorism and 

countering violent extremism strategy that in part cracks down on 

human rights abuses and improves conditions in prisons to combat 

radicalization. All assistant should be on the basis of advancing 

U.S. interests in providing the necessary weapons and training 

that can help Egypt address its security challenges in ways that 

align with U.S. interests and values. 

Finally, U. S. security cooperation and assistance with Egypt 

should be conditioned on Egypt’s performance in the security field 

itself instead of political and economic reforms. I look forward to 

getting into more details in the Q&A. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Awad follows:]

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Awad, thank you so much. 

Ms. Hawthorne. 

STATEMENT OF MS. AMY HAWTHORNE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR 

FOR RESEARCH, PROJECT ON MIDDLE EAST DEMOCRACY 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. Good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair, 

Ranking Member Deutch, distinguished members of the committee. 

I am honored to be here today to testify alongside my esteemed colleagues. 

I would also like to commend the chair and Congressman 

Connolly for their leadership on a series of crucially important 

GAO reports that have shed light on U.S. aid to Egypt and for the 

subcommittee’s leadership on holding regular hearings on Egypt 

over the past few years. 

With your permission, I will summarize the key points of my 

written testimony. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Please do. Thank you so much. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. Egypt remains important to the United States 

for all the reasons that have been mentioned this morning, but 

nearly 3 years after now-President el-Sisi led the military overthrow of Mohamed Morsi’s government, Egypt is headed in the 

wrong direction with regard to political developments, its economy, 

and its security situation, and in many ways it has become a more 

difficult partner for the United States. At present, relations with 

Egypt present more challenges than opportunities for the United 

States. 

With regard to the political situation, as detailed in fact sheets 

that I attached to my testimony, there is an intense campaign of 

repression, vast human rights violations and a political crackdown 

that is far worse than anything that took place under Mubarak or 

under former President Morsi. I will spare you the details, but suffice it to say that thousands of Egyptians have been locked up, and 

conditions in detention centers and prisons are thought to involve 

abuse and torture and the potential radicalization of inmates who 

are held in these conditions. Civil society and independent human 

rights groups are under an intense campaign of repression. Blasphemy cases and other prosecution of Egyptians for expressing 

their opinions and their views, including against Coptic Christians, 

are at record highs in Sisi’s Egypt. 

As the leading human rights activist Gamal Eid wrote in a recent article in the New York Times, when independent, political activity and civil society groups are crushed, you run the risk in 

Egypt of moving toward a situation that was similar to that which 

existed in Qaddafi’s Libya or Saddam Hussein’s Iraq in which there 

are no mediating institutions, no spaces for citizens to gather 

peacefully and organize and mobilize against their government, 

and this creates a society that is far more brutal and far less prepared to deal with turbulence and conflict and risks falling into violence. 

On the economic front, although President Sisi has a spoken 

often of improving the economy and the Egyptian Government has 

taken some important steps, Egypt remains mired in economic 

problems. By many economic indicators, the economy is getting 

worse, and most concerning, I don’t see a clear sign coming from 

29

the Egyptian leadership about a sound economic policy to turn the 

situation around. 

I would also note that one of the key features of Sisi’s Egypt, 

which is an increased role for the military in the civilian economy, 

is completely antithetical to the development of the competitive, 

free-market economy that many Egyptians and the U.S. would like 

to see developed. 

With regard to security, my colleague Mokhtar Awad has described the situation far better than I ever could, but I would just 

like to underscore that there are genuine concerns that Sisi’s strategy of combating the real terrorist threat that Egypt faces runs the 

risk of being so broad and indiscriminate and brutal that it may 

actually worsen the very problem it is trying to address by expanding the pool of Egyptians aggrieved against their government and 

susceptible to radicalization. 

With regard to U.S. relations, although President Sisi has often 

said that he seeks a strong relationship and a strategic relationship 

with the United States, the actions of many in the Egyptian Government suggest otherwise. This is a government that has refused 

to pardon innocent American citizens who have been wrongly convicted on trumped up charges relating to their work with NGOs; 

that puts American citizens on trial; that detains American citizens 

and deports them from the airport with no explanation; that constantly features negative images of and attacks on the United 

States and its media; and that, as the recent GAO report on security assistance pointed out, refuses to cooperate on many key aspects of U.S. security assistance. 

We need to work with Egypt. Although it is not easy, the United 

States must continue to partner with this government while showing strong signs of concern about the trajectory of the country. 

In the question-and-answer, I would be pleased to describe some 

details about the ways I think we should restructure our ESF and 

our FMF program in order to develop a course correction with regard to our policies in Egypt. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Hawthorne follows:]

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Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much. Excellent testimony 

from all three. I will start the question-and-answer period. 

Ambassador Green, I completely agree that if the Egyptian Government keeps stifling dissent and does not allow for more citizen 

participation, it will likely end up destabilizing the country even 

further. 

You mentioned that your legal team had looked into the Egyptian government’s authority to issue pardons to the 43 NGO staff, 

and that you had concluded that it is completely within its power 

to do so. And when I have raised this issue with Egyptian officials, 

I have been told that the biggest obstacle is the judiciary’s ongoing 

review and then reform of the penal code, which would then need 

to be passed by the Parliament. What is your understanding of the 

judiciary’s role in this process, and how can we help Egypt to move 

these pardons forward and to start seeing civil society as an ally 

in its development and not as a problem? 

Ambassador GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chair, for that question. 

First off, as you alluded to, our best legal information is that they 

can move immediately to issue pardons. I would note, as some of 

you have pointed out, they do not seem to have a barrier in reopening the case in adding defendants. It is only pardoning the convicted that they seem to hesitate over. And again, we simply don’t 

see legal barriers to it. There are more political obstacles that they 

keep raising. 

Madam Chair, I think the best answer to the question that you 

posed about how to move this forward is really, quite frankly, to 

continue doing what you have been doing and others on the committee have been doing and that is raise this every single time. 

Egypt is an important ally, and as an important ally, we need to 

speak frankly and make it very clear to them at every single possible opportunity that this matters to us. Their treatment of American citizens, as well as citizens of their own country, but particularly American citizens is something that matters to us and we will 

not let stand, so I think making that case over and over again. 

And then finally just on the logical point, as some of you have 

said, they are making it hard for us to help them. We wish to see, 

all of us, Egypt succeed. We need Egypt to succeed, and the lessons 

of our experience as a nation, as well as organizations like NDI and 

IRI, is that for security to be sustainable, it must involve citizens 

and civil society. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much, sir. 

Mr. Awad, you testified that, relative to the Sinai, the Egyptian 

security forces have so far been able to frustrate ISIS and other 

violent groups in the Nile Valley. What elements does Egypt need 

to include in its counterinsurgency strategy if it is to stop ISIS 

from expanding further? And what do you see as ISIS’ strategy in 

Egypt as it attempts to link its operations with those in Libya? 

Mr. AWAD. So let me discuss the situation in the Sinai. 

Counterinsurgency really relates to the Sinai. The issue is that the 

Egyptian Government and the military has articulated different 

parts of the strategy: Economic development, tribal outreach in an 

informal way, and beginning to update some of the doctrine and integrating intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance methods and 

how they are fighting the terrorists. 

46

The problem is, thus far, we don’t necessarily see a unified central command that is implementing a counterinsurgency strategy. 

Different parts, again, are articulated. There is supposed to be a 

command that is for countering terrorism and economic development of the Sinai. However, it remains to be seen if in fact we will 

see the Egyptian Government saying that it is going to do 

counterinsurgency. The problem is some officials don’t even like the 

term insurgency, but that is a whole other set of issues. 

When it comes to the Islamic State, as I have written in the 

West Point Sentinel in multiple articles, the Islamic State looks at 

Egypt as, most importantly, a base of operations that can be used 

to launch attacks against Israel. This is the case of the Sinai. Also, 

it can link the Sinai in the Libyan theater, so being able to have 

assets in the Western Desert that can secure the smuggling routes. 

Being able to have access to the Nile Valley that can continue that 

route from the Western Desert to Sinai is key and vital. Egypt also 

has a lot of Western interests, tourist targets, so Islamic State 

looks at it as a place where it can do external operations against 

Western targets. 

Finally, Egypt is an untapped reservoir, from their perspective, 

of recruits. We look at tiny Tunisia and the thousands of people it 

exported to that group, whereas in Egypt only a fraction of that 

number. So the Islamic State is looking to try and recruit as much 

as possible inside Egypt to feed its different branches but also to 

increase its operations in Egypt proper. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you very much. Thank you. 

Mr. Deutch is recognized. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

We have had a lot of discussion about the security issue and the 

human rights issue and how to bridge them, and I wanted to come 

at this a different way. President Sisi has taken a leading role in 

countering violent Islamic extremism, and his has been a needed 

and welcomed voice in the region. The question, though, is not 

about how we perceive it. The question is how do the Egyptian people perceive it, number one. And given the crackdown on Islamists, 

is President Sisi able to be a voice of influence in the broader region? Ms. Hawthorne? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. Thank you. That is a crucial question. I believe 

that many Egyptians do support President Sisi’s approach, and he 

does continue to enjoy support from large parts of the Egyptian 

population. But first of all, that support has notably declined in the 

past year as problems in Egypt have mounted. 

And secondly, I believe there are many Egyptians who are very 

worried and fearful of President Sisi’s counterterrorism approach. 

In fact, many of these Egyptians are the very ones who the government and state institutions need to be able to reach to convince 

them not to turn to violence, not to turn to radicalization. And it 

is this constituency of Egyptian citizens who themselves or their 

friends or their families have been arrested, detained, tortured, 

subject to other kinds of mistreatment, convicted in trials that lack 

any semblance of due process. I think for those Egyptians they are 

looking for Egyptian leadership that has the moral authority to 

talk about values of tolerance and acceptance and human rights 

47

that are at the core of countering any message from ISIS. And they 

have, I think, a very serious concern. 

President Sisi speaks out against Islamic radicalism, which is 

crucial, but the other half of the equation, which is all of the other 

things that are needed to diminish the appeal of these groups, is 

really missing at this time. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you. Mr. Awad, can you just follow up? I understand—and we have spoken about the concerns that so many of 

us share on the human rights front and on civil society, and clearly 

for those segments of Egyptian society who are trying to express 

themselves, we understand those problems. But more broadly 

throughout the region is the position that President Sisi has taken, 

speaking out against these radical Islamist views, how is that 

being received, again, throughout the broader region, understanding that there are human rights issues, there are civil society 

issues throughout the broader region as well, which we have to 

talk about. But just specifically on his willingness to speak out like 

this, Mr. Awad, what impact is that having? 

Mr. AWAD. Well, we can’t say that there is much impact. However, I can say that definitely people across the region appreciated 

the rhetoric coming from the President of a major country in the 

Arab world to speak in such frank terms against Islamic extremism 

and against many of these extremists. 

However, for Egypt to have impact, it will have to lead by example. This is not necessarily something that we have seen. Again, we 

have seen parts of a strategy articulated when it comes to countering violent extremism or CVE, but the government hasn’t completely established a unified strategy that can set an example for 

less stable countries to follow or aspire to. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Ambassador Green, again, getting back to human 

rights and civil society, the frustration that we have expressed—

and again, it is an issue I think Mr. Connolly talked about, the expectations that we have. But again, instead of just viewing this as 

what we expect and how Egypt receives the message that we are 

sending to them, how do we speak to Egyptian leaders about 

human rights in a way that resonates with them and that aligns 

with their interests? Is there a way to do that? 

Ambassador GREEN. I think the way that we do that is that we 

suggest to them over and over again—and we have plenty of lessons to point to—that in the long run, for security to be sustainable, it must have citizen buy-in, particularly from the next generation. Young people have to have a stake in a vibrant Egyptian culture and government, and that means that there has to be a space 

for citizens to engage and have a voice in their government. That, 

I think, is what we talk about over and over again. 

And if I might, just to add on to what we have just heard from 

your previous question, Egypt is clearly important to America’s interests and to the interests of many in the region. However, I think 

everyone recognizes that Egypt’s economy, as bad as it is, would be 

even more horrendous if it were not for it being buffeted and held 

up by outside assistance. And the same thing is true with the military. 

So while there is stability in one sense, I think many recognize 

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vestments in some kind of citizen engagement, they can never truly 

and sustainably be secure and have that bright future that everyone of us wants to see. 

Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Deutch. 

Mr. Wilson of South Carolina. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Ambassador Green, thank you very much for your service, and 

I am really so pleased about your presidency of IRI, the International Republican Institute. I wish more American people knew 

about IRI, also the National Democratic Institute. It is a great example of working together, both parties, promoting democracy 

around the world. 

And I had the opportunity 26 years ago—it was life-changing to 

me—to be an election observer as a State Senator in Bulgaria June 

10, 1990. I will never forget it. It was extraordinary to see the 

country come to life after fascism, Nazism, communism. And then 

it gave me the opportunity to invite—and I had a Member of Parliament Stefan Stoyonov and Ambassador Elena Poptodorova come 

and observe our election. So it was eye-opening. 

And then I had the opportunity, due to IRI, to visit in Bratislava, 

Slovakia; to Novosibirsk, Siberia. What a difference you make. And 

I had the great opportunity to have Ambassador Peter Burian as 

an election observer from Slovakia in South Carolina of all things 

where he unjustly accused me of arranging for half of the voters 

to have Slovak heritage. It was just a coincidence as we were at 

the polling locations. But what a difference IRI makes. So thank 

you. 

In your written testimony, you stated that President Sisi’s concerted counterterrorism campaign in the Sinai shows few signs of 

progress in eliminating the very real extremist threat that is sadly 

on the rise. Based on this observation, could you explain the impact 

of the really bizarre reports that the U.S. may be withdrawing from 

the Sinai, and what would that do to the prospect of destroying 

ISIL/Daesh on the Sinai Peninsula? 

Ambassador GREEN. Thank you, Congressman. Thank you for 

the kind words. And as you know, IRI and NDI are joined at the 

hip. We are sister organizations working closely together. 

I am not sure I am qualified to give you a thorough assessment 

on the security front, but I would say that we do believe the U.S. 

must stay engaged with Egypt. It is a crucial partner of ours in the 

region, so I would certainly not suggest withdrawal in any way, 

shape, or form. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Well, to me it is very clear. We 

either stop ISIL/Daesh overseas or we will see them again here, as 

Congressman Rohrabacher has so eloquently pointed out. 

Mr. Awad, how would you characterize the impact of U.S. military assistance to Egypt? Has it been used effectively? 

Mr. AWAD. If I may just to comment on the issue of the MFO in 

North Sinai——

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Yes, please. 

Mr. AWAD [continuing]. Our troops are not there to fight ISIS, so 

the issue of removal is not taking them out of Egypt necessarily 

49

but a more secure location in the South Sinai so it won’t have necessarily a negative impact on the fight against ISIS. The troops are 

there to observe the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel, and 

that is no longer as acute of a problem as it used to be. So it is 

for our troops’ protection. We are not removing our people from 

Egypt or we are not limiting the pressure that is applied against 

the Islamic State there. 

For the most part I think there is room for improvement when 

it comes to how our military assistance is lining up with Egyptian 

priorities and how that is advancing our point of view toward 

counterinsurgency in a place like Sinai. When it comes to the use 

of Apaches, F-16s, they have been effective, as I have noted, as the 

situation escalated in the Sinai. It is not so much an issue of the 

major weapons systems that we provide them but how best to provide them ISR-related technologies, drones, and things along those 

lines, but at the same time ensuring that they will be used in an 

effective strategy. 

So we have made some gains. It is doing some work, but there 

is a lot that can be done with the type of weapons that we give 

them. But at the end of the day there needs to be an effective 

counterinsurgency strategy, an articulated strategy that we can actually latch onto and provide the necessary equipment for. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Thank you very much. And, 

Ambassador Green, how could you explain, sadly, the relatively low 

voter turnout in Egypt selections? What can the United States do 

to encourage greater participation in the political process? 

Ambassador GREEN. Well, obviously, the most important things 

that can be done are by the Egyptian Government itself. It is creating meaningful opportunities. Where outcomes are predetermined 

or preordained, people see less reason to participate, and so genuine choices, genuinely citizen-centered choices at the ballot box 

are the long-term answer. 

We recognize in a challenging security situation there may be intermediate steps and there may be a path to be followed, but clearly, there has to be some hope for Egypt’s young people that they 

will get back to the traditions that they have had of civil society 

being vibrant and citizen-centered government being the norm. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. And again, I have seen it firsthand with IRI and NDI. Again, it is fun when you visit these countries and you can’t tell who is R and who is D, which is amazing. 

But working together and by encouraging youth groups, different 

civic groups to participate, it is very positive, and I wish you continued success. 

And I yield back to the chairperson. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Wilson. 

And now we will go to Mr. Trott, right? Yes. 

Mr. TROTT. Thank you, Chairman, and——

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much. 

Mr. TROTT [continuing]. I want to thank Ranking Member 

Deutch for scheduling this hearing. 

And obviously, a discussion of the relationship between Egypt 

and the United States is very important because there is a strategic importance to the relationship. 

50

I didn’t get here in time to make an opening statement, but I 

wanted to mention to the panel that I am very honored today. I 

have a large Coptic community in my district, and so for the first 

time in the history of the House, Father Mina from the Orthodox 

church in Troy, Michigan, is here. He is going to open the House 

and lead the House in prayer later this morning——

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Oh, terrific. 

Mr. TROTT [continuing]. So it is a wonderful honor, and I will be 

happy to welcome him with the Speaker in about an hour. 

My question goes to the events that happened a few weeks ago 

in Minya when the elderly woman was stripped naked and paraded 

around the city, and I just want each of the panelists to speak to, 

you know, what is going to be done in response to that outrageous 

incident? Is President Sisi going to be supportive of a rule-of-law 

solution? Are we going to engage in ridiculous reconciliation sessions? What is going to happen there? What can we do to help get 

the right result with respect to that outrageous behavior and incident? 

And then generally with respect to religious minorities, how can 

Congress help move the needle to make sure the situation continues to improve particularly for the Copts in Egypt? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. I guess I will start with that one. First, in response to one of the earlier questions—and this actually feeds into 

your very important question with regard to how the U.S. can engage with Egypt on human rights and civil society and talk about 

the ways in which upholding these norms and values is in Egypt’s 

interest—I would note that in recent meetings with visiting U.S. 

congressional delegations and with other foreign visitors, President 

Sisi has reportedly stated that the West should not hold Egypt to 

unfair Western human rights standards and that we should create 

sort of a lower standard or exceptions for Egypt’s human rights 

performance. 

But in fact it is very important to keep in mind that these standards are not Western standards. Many of them are enshrined in 

Egypt’s new constitution of 2014. Egypt is also a signatory to several key international human rights instruments, and quasi-official 

human rights bodies in Egypt monitor human rights. So when 

President Sisi and other Egyptian officials make that assertion, I 

think we need to be ready to respond with the fact that these are 

really Egyptian norms and Egyptian demands, as well as universal 

ones. 

With regard to the very troubling event that you referenced in 

Minya, frankly, this is one of the most disturbing things that I 

have read about of all the incredibly disturbing things that have 

been happening in Egypt recently. And sadly, it is a part of a pattern of communal tensions that lead to violent attacks on Coptic 

Christians with no recourse and no justice. 

One of the disturbing elements of this incident was that it only 

came to light because of dogged local reporting and information on 

social media by Egyptian citizens. The Egyptian Government was 

originally prepared not to mention it. 

President Sisi has spoken about this incident and has vowed that 

the perpetrators will be brought to justice, but I must say that 

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dent Mubarak there was a terrible and disturbing pattern of lack 

of follow-through for these attacks against Copts and other minorities in Egypt, lots of nice words but very little follow-through or accountability or the rule of law. 

The problem is is that the justice system, the judiciary in Egypt 

today, in many cases seems incapable of rendering justice, and 

there is an increasingly intolerant environment in Egyptian society 

against those who are different, which might include Copts and 

others who are part of the fabric of Egyptian society. 

I think that it is very important that all visiting Americans—

U.S. officials, Members of Congress, and others—raise these issues 

with President Sisi because the Egyptian authorities often would 

like to sweep these problems under the rug and suggest there is 

no sectarian tension and there is no communal strife in Egypt, and 

that is simply not the case. So the first step is for us to raise these 

issues and then to remind Egypt of its national and international 

obligations. 

Mr. TROTT. Thank you. I think that is a great answer and a 

great suggestion and I appreciate it. And I have limited time, so 

I have just one other question I will follow up with you. 

So if the Muslim Brotherhood have an exclusive ideology and democracy is an inclusive process, is the Muslim Brotherhood compatible with democracy? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. That is a crucial question and one that is difficult to answer in brief. I believe that at least through 2013 when 

President Morsi’s government was toppled, there were members of 

the Muslim Brotherhood who were ready to work within and accept 

the democratic process while in my personal view still hewing to 

disturbing, illiberal, and intolerant views. But at least it was a first 

step that there were some members of the group who were willing 

to participate in elections and participate in a democratically elected government. However, once President Morsi was in power, we 

saw a lack of regard for human rights, norms, and many disturbing 

signs and tendencies toward repression. 

However, if we look at actual acts and practices, we see that 

what has taken place under President Sisi, who professes to support democracy, is actually far more abusive and far more brutal 

and far more disparaging and violating of democratic norms than 

what took place under previous governments. 

So I believe that there are many undemocratic actors in Egypt, 

not just many Islamists but also other Egyptians who are very enamored of a harsh, repressive security state. So the outcome on the 

ground is the same in my view, and it is very disturbing. 

Mr. TROTT. Thank you. I yield back. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, excellent questions. And 

good luck with the prayer today. 

Mr. Connolly of Virginia is recognized. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Ms. Hawthorne, your testimony is that the current crackdown is 

worse than that under Morsi and worse than that under the Mubarak government, correct? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. [Nonverbal response.] 

Mr. CONNOLLY. That is a pretty hard statement. It seems to me 

that if you don’t create political space, you are inviting repression 

52

and authoritarian regimes because there is no alternative. I don’t 

know why we were surprised when Mubarak fell that the only viable electoral alternative was the Muslim Brotherhood. They were 

the only ones who had organized, however surreptitiously, and no 

other political dissent had been allowed, with our complicity. And 

we are doing it again under this military-led government. 

And my friend from California, Mr. Rohrabacher, warned us that 

if we didn’t support this government, the alternative was radical 

Islamic terrorism. I fear that without questioning this government, 

without challenging this government, without holding it to certain 

standards, that is precisely the alternative. We will create that alternative not by design, but because we have created no political 

space in Egypt, the largest Arab population in the world. 

The idea that there is only this military-led government or chaos 

in the void seems to me an unacceptable proposition for the American people and the American Government, and we have to use 

whatever lever is available to us—and we have talked about that 

a little bit in terms of foreign assistance—to try to effectuate a better outcome and a better-performing government, one that is more 

inclusive and certainly does not resort—I mean, when you say, Ms. 

Hawthorne, that the current crackdown is worse than Morsi, whatever one wants to say about the Muslim Brotherhood government—

and God knows I have no love for the Muslim Brotherhood government, but they did get elected freely and fairly according to the 

United States Government, is that not correct? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. [Nonverbal response.] 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Did they mow thousands of Egyptian citizens in 

the streets of Cairo and Alexandria, Ms. Hawthorne? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. No, they did not. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. No, they did not. That is kind of a big measuring 

stick, it seems to me. However repressive or anti-democratic tendencies they may have been showing at the time of the overthrow, 

they did not do what this government has done against its own citizens. 

And I am not trying to create a favorable comparison, but I think 

we, America, we need to realistically look at what has been 

wrought in Egypt. And I believe that repressive government in 

Egypt plays into the hands of the very elements we want to oppose 

and we do not want to strengthen. 

Ambassador Green, what about that? IRI is on the ground over 

there. You have had people who have been victimized by this government and the previous government. What is your sense? 

Ambassador GREEN. Well, thank you, Congressman. If nothing 

else, your statement about the importance of political space we absolutely agree with, that there must be political space created for 

people to engage in a safe space with their government. And what 

we worry about is ongoing alienation of youth, the next generation. 

And if they grow up in a society with no safe space, no opportunities to engage with their government and with their society, what 

will be the long-term ramifications? Will you have an entire generation that knows nothing else but what they are seeing right 

now? And obviously none of us would support that. That would be 

a terrible thing. 

53

Mr. CONNOLLY. And maybe that, given my limited time, Ambassador Green, we could talk just a little bit. I am going to invite you 

to describe the process. But when I met with the young people from 

the NGOs who are unfortunately being prosecuted by their government, these were young idealists committed to making their country a better place. I mean, you couldn’t have asked for a better 

sense of citizenship. And in fact one worried about their idealism 

being perhaps crushed by the government. Most of them come from 

middle- and upper-middle-class families. They are educated. Describe the humiliation of what it means to be put on trial in a 

courtroom in Cairo. What happens? Are you put in a jury box? 

Ambassador GREEN. They do not receive the same legal protections or opportunities obviously that we see in the United States 

or in nearly all of the civilized world. And it goes back to my strong 

belief that alienation of youth is one of the most dangerous conditions. Left unaddressed, it will guarantee more authoritarian government. It will guarantee an unsustainable security situation. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. And the disillusionment of a cadre of young people who actually believed in democracy. 

Ambassador GREEN. Very much so. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA [presiding]. And thank you, Mr. 

Connolly. 

We will now proceed to Congressman Ron DeSantis of Florida. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate 

Chairman Ros-Lehtinen holding this hearing. I think that this is 

a very important subject. 

And I agree with a lot of the concerns about what is going on 

in Egyptian society, but I also don’t want to view the Muslim 

Brotherhood with any type of rose-colored glasses. I think that we 

should designate them as a foreign terrorist organization. We have 

passed it out of one House committee already, and it is awaiting 

Floor action. I think that they are not part of the solution in the 

Middle East but part of the problem. 

So let me ask you, putting aside the problems that are going on 

in Egyptian society, Ambassador Green, is President el-Sisi a more 

reliable ally to the United States in combating Islamist terror than 

a Muslim Brotherhood-led government would be? 

Ambassador GREEN. Thank you, Congressman. I am not sure I 

am qualified to comment necessarily on the security situation, but 

what I can comment on is very clearly former President Morsi and 

the Muslim Brotherhood were leading Egypt on a very, very dangerous path toward combative, violent Islamic extremism. You 

know, there is simply no doubt of that. 

My fear and what my testimony is today is that in the 3 years 

since then, I worry that the clamping down on civil society and 

human rights is making the situation—we are certainly not improving the situation. 

Mr. DESANTIS. I think we saw Mubarak is removed, they do an 

election, and really the default political movement is political 

Islam. You saw that with the Brotherhood winning; the Salafists 

did well in that election. And I am concerned as well with what you 

are talking about with civil society, but are there competing 

ideologies at play? Are there people who are trying to offer a more, 

54

I think, appetizing view of the role of government and individual 

liberty in Egypt right now? 

Ambassador GREEN. I think one of the dangers is when you have 

a total clampdown on civil society and the opportunities for citizens 

to engage their government, there is no pluralism, and that is a 

very dangerous thing. So, you know, it becomes a self-fulfilling 

prophecy. And again, we believe that there needs to be political 

space for people to express themselves. We recognize the security 

challenges that the government faces, but certainly from the perspective of the U.S., there is every reason that we should be cleareyed in our analysis, and we should be honest and straightforward 

with those with whom we engage. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Mr. Awad, what would you say? President el-Sisi, 

is he a more reliable ally in combating Islamist terror than a 

Brotherhood-led government would be? 

Mr. AWAD. On that narrow question of reliability, to rely on a 

member of the Egyptian military over a member of the Muslim 

Brotherhood to combat terrorists, the short answer is yes. There 

was a question asked earlier about whether or not the Muslim 

Brotherhood is compatible with democracy. That question can be 

debated, but I believe they are wholly incompatible with liberal democracy. I am not really sure that this is a question that is necessarily up for debate, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, that is. 

On the question of whether or not they are a foreign terrorist organization, I don’t necessarily see evidence that the entire organization is a terrorist organization. That does not make them pacifists. They have problematic views. They have proven themselves 

to be——

Mr. DESANTIS. They support groups like Hamas, though. 

Mr. AWAD. They do support groups like Hamas. However, we are 

talking about material or financial support. The extent of that has 

to be investigated to be able to make a designation that every 

member of——

Mr. DESANTIS. Well, but they also provide——

Mr. AWAD [continuing]. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist. 

Mr. DESANTIS [continuing]. The intellectual contours for a really 

rigid political Islamism. And one of the things I appreciated with 

President el-Sisi—and again, I think I agree with you guys on the 

problems of the civil society is that he gave a speech in front of a 

lot of clerics in 2015 and just made the point that he is a devout 

Muslim, but you can’t have the faith used to be antagonistic to 

every single person in the world who disagrees with that. I would 

imagine that that view would be rejected by the hierarchy of the 

Brotherhood, correct? 

Mr. AWAD. That is true. And let me clarify. There is increasing 

evidence that one faction inside the Muslim Brotherhood has engaged in violence since January 2014 at least. Some of their members have engaged and do engage in violence. The question here is 

not, again, whether the Muslim Brotherhood is a pacifist organization or a problematic one. It is. It is incompatible with liberal democracy, and its views are regressive. 

But for the United States in designating a foreign terrorist organization, if we want to take a step like that, perhaps we should 

take a look at the specific individuals or the specific faction that 

55

is actively engaging in these things because there are many members of the Muslim Brotherhood who may hold regressive views 

like members of white supremacist groups here in the United 

States that we wouldn’t necessarily designate as terrorists. But 

again, the lack of designating as terrorists does not mean that the 

organization is a good organization or compatible with liberal democracy. 

Mr. DESANTIS. All right. I thank the gentleman for his comments. I would just say I think that what is kind of at the foundation of society, are there pockets where you could actually have 

more liberal views about the proper role of government. And my 

fear is that the default is basically the Brotherhood and political 

Islamists, that that is where the majority or at least a plurality of 

the folks are. But I agree it is tough to figure that out if there are 

not open channels. But I appreciate the testimony, and I yield 

back. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Thank you, Congressman 

DeSantis. And now we will conclude with our guest, Congressman 

Dana Rohrabacher of California. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

And I am very pleased to hear from our colleagues that we have 

a Coptic religious leader leading us in prayer this morning. That 

is a wonderful statement for us to make. 

Let me suggest this. I worked in the White House with President 

Reagan at a time when the National Endowment for Democracy became real. I worked with a speechwriting team that developed the 

concept in his speech before Parliament. And let me note that during that time period, I think one of the reasons we won the cold 

war is Reagan became the champion of democracy rather than repression as a way to meet communism. That was part of the basic 

theory. But let me note this, that what we have today are alternatives between if the bad guys win, what we have is what, Islamic 

dictatorships that will murder people in great number. 

And, you know, quite frankly, I think that when you have some 

level of repression against groups of people in your society that 

went to institute a dictatorship, what we did is we used those people who wanted freedom and democracy against a communist regime, we emphasized that, and that is how we won the cold war. 

But the fact is those people and the institutes we are talking 

about were pushing for democracy in communist countries, and 

what would replace—in other words, the repressive people in those 

countries where the ones who didn’t believe in democracy and we 

were supporting—by having the same strategy in Egypt and other 

countries, we are ending up, what, supporting and giving life to elements within that society that don’t want more democracy. 

So I would suggest that pushing against restrictions, especially 

during a time when hundreds of Egyptian people are being murdered or soldiers are being killed in a battle against radical Islam, 

at a time pushing them at that point to a standard, a Democratic 

standard that we believe should be the standard in ordinary times, 

perhaps makes it more likely that there will be a repressive government rather than less likely, meaning in the end I believe General Sisi, now President Sisi, wants a Democratic Egypt. And for 

us to undermine him now we might end up creating a horror story 

56

in terms of radical Islamic terrorism throughout the region, but 

also the people of Egypt will be less free if the Muslim Brotherhood 

element succeeds. 

Now, with that suggestion, let me ask about the blasphemy law. 

You mentioned the blasphemy rules. How many people have been 

prosecuted for blasphemy laws in Egypt? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. I believe that in recent years it has been in the 

dozens. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. In recent years——

Ms. HAWTHORNE. Yes, it has been——

Mr. ROHRABACHER [continuing]. Been dozens? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. In the dozens. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. So that means last year maybe one? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. No, I think it was a significantly more than 

that. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Okay. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. I will have to check on those but——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Five then——

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. I think it was——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. We are talking five or ten? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. More than five, in the dozens. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Okay. So in the dozens over a number of 

years. Tell me, in the other parts of the Middle East how does that 

stack up with the rest of the countries in the Middle East? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. Well, first of all, Egypt has a much larger Coptic Christian population——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Yes. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. Than many other countries. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Right. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. So the dynamics are——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. That is because they have relative freedom of 

religion compared to all the other countries in the Middle East. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. I think it is very troubling. I mean, a recent 

incident that sort of highlighted some of the dilemmas that are occurring in Sisi’s Egypt today is that a group of Coptic Christian 

teenagers who filmed——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Hold on. Hold on. I am asking a question 

here. I don’t want you to go on about your philosophy. We understand, and I agree with what you are saying, but I am asking you 

a specific question. Doesn’t Egypt rank really high up on the scale 

when compared to other Middle Eastern countries in terms of freedom of religion, blasphemy, et cetera? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. In some respects there are positive signs. In 

other respects there are——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Is the answer yes or no? 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. I think it is a mixed picture. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Okay. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE. President Sisi has said some important 

things——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. All right. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. But actions on the ground continue to be——

Mr. ROHRABACHER. All right. All right. 

Ms. HAWTHORNE [continuing]. Increasingly intolerant. 

57

Mr. ROHRABACHER. I have got a limited amount of time. That is 

why I can’t let you go on. The bottom line is I have been to the 

Middle East, we have all been to the Middle East. To compare 

Egypt under attack by radical Islamic forces that hate us, that 

would murder us, as well as murder all the people in Egypt that 

disagree with them, to compare them to us and the rest of the 

Western world, Europe, is wrong. It is bad. It will result in more 

tyranny and not less. What is fair is to compare Egypt to the other 

Muslim countries in that region. 

And I know it sounds like you are very hesitant to say it. I am 

not hesitant to say it. Egypt ranks way up there on the top of that 

scale. It is positive as compared to Qatar, as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain. All of these countries that we are talking about that you could 

compare it to legitimately, Egypt gets an A plus compared to them. 

I think it is totally unfair, especially when this country is under 

attack, their people are being murdered, you have got the soldiers 

being killed, 900 soldiers—what would happen if 900 American soldiers—by the way, in proportion, that is about 90,000 American 

soldiers being killed and then to hold Egypt to that standard is 

wrong. 

And, Mr. Chairman, just indulge me in one more moment. I do 

not believe that radical Islamic terrorists are really alienated 

Democrats. I don’t believe that for a minute. This idea that because 

there have been clampdowns on certain people that maybe 

shouldn’t be clamped down—look, any time you let the government 

bureaucracy go, they make mistakes and they target people. They 

do that—we have had our own people targeted here by our own 

Government in terms of the IRS, et cetera, for disagreement. 

But this, the radical Islamists that are a threat to us now are 

not people who believed in democracy, but they were upset that 

they knew someone who was repressed by a repressive government. 

These are people who have a philosophy, an ideology like communism did during the cold war. The fact is that communists believed in what they believed in. They believed in a dictatorship of 

the proletariat. That idea was defeated, but we recognize what that 

was. 

Today, radical Islamic terrorism is affecting the entire world and 

threatens especially the democratic world. General Sisi who is now 

President Sisi, the fact is if his government does not succeed because we have been too idealistic in comparing him to other standards, the Western standards of people who are not under attack 

and we lose this government to a radical Islamic government, the 

whole world will suffer and we will be in jeopardy. 

With that said, thank you very much. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Yes, Congressman Connolly. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. If I might be allowed just a brief response. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. That is a unanimous consent, but as long as 

you promise that someday I get that opportunity when you have 

refuted me. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Absolutely. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Okay. Good. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. I simply wanted to say that I don’t know that we 

disagree. To be a critic of the el-Sisi government is not to view terVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:27 Aug 31, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_MENA\061516\20455 SHIRL
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rorists as lapsed Democrats. Some of us want to see, like you do, 

Mr. Rohrabacher, Egypt as a bulwark against terrorism and extremism. The question is how best to do that. And some of us respectfully, including the witnesses here today, believe that the path elSisi has gone down actually will not yield that result, will do the 

opposite, not by design but by practice. 

Now, maybe we are wrong and I hope we are, but it is worthy 

of examination because my friend and I share the same goal. It is 

a question of how best to get there. I don’t believe the best way to 

get there is by killing your own citizens, by clamping down on civil 

liberties, by imprisoning and trying young idealist NGO staffers 

who are trying to make for a better Egypt. I believe that those actions are almost designed to play into the hands of the very people 

you and I want to prevent from coming to power. 

And that is the debate. It is not an either/or choice of do you like 

terrorists or do you want a military strongman who cracks down 

on all dissent. There has to be another alternative making this better, creating political space so that we aren’t faced with a blackand-white, either/or alternative. And that is just my point of view. 

Thank you, friend. 

Mr. WILSON OF SOUTH CAROLINA. And I would like to thank, as 

we conclude, Congressman Rohrabacher and Congressman 

Connolly for their input, and we appreciate so much the witnesses 

here today. 

And again, I just have to restate IRI, NDI, the National Endowment for Democracy, what a difference it makes around the world 

providing opportunity. And I just wish the success of each of you. 

We are now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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