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S. Hrg. 114–402 

NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S 

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

JUNE 17, 2015 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin Chairman 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

JONI ERNST, Iowa 

BEN SASSE, Nebraska 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

KEITH B. ASHDOWN, Staff Director 

CHRISTOPHER R. HIXON, Chief Counsel 

GABRIELLE D’ADAMO SINGER, Deputy Chief Counsel for Governmental Affairs 

GABRIELLE A. BATKIN, Minority Staff Director 

JOHN P. KILVINGTON, Minority Deputy Staff Director 

DEIRDRE G. ARMSTRONG, Minority Professional Staff Member 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Chief Clerk 

LAUREN M. CORCORAN, Hearing Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Lankford .............................................................................................. 1 

Senator Heitkamp ............................................................................................ 2 

Senator Ernst .................................................................................................... 7 

Senator Baldwin ............................................................................................... 8 

Senator McCaskill ............................................................................................ 10 

Senator Peters .................................................................................................. 12 

Prepared statement: 

Senator Lankford .............................................................................................. 17 

Senator Heitkamp ............................................................................................ 19 

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 17, 2015 

Carol F. Ochoa, to be Inspector General, U.S. General Services Administration 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 21 

Biographical and financial information .......................................................... 23 

Letter from the Office of Government Ethics ................................................. 43 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 45 

Letters of support .................................................................................................... 62 

(1) 

NOMINATION OF CAROL F. OCHOA 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 17, 2015 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:05 p.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James Lankford, 

presiding. 

Present: Senators Lankford, Ernst, Sasse, Heitkamp, McCaskill, 

Baldwin, and Peters. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD 

Senator LANKFORD. Good afternoon. Today we will consider the 

nomination of Carol Ochoa for the position of Inspector General 

(IG) of the General Services Administration (GSA). 

The Offices of the Inspector General (OIG) were established in 

1978 by Congress to protect the integrity of the agencies they 

serve. Inspectors General do this by rooting out and reporting on 

waste, fraud, and mismanagement so that agencies may effectively 

carry out their responsibilities and fulfill their missions in service 

to the American people. 

As frontline watchdogs for the hardworking taxpayer, Inspectors 

General play a critical role in congressional oversight. Earlier this 

month, we stressed the importance of efficiently nominating and 

confirming competent Inspectors General at a Committee hearing 

here in this same room. The Committee and my Subcommittee take 

Inspector General nominations incredibly seriously, and so we are 

pleased to have a strong nominee before us. 

Oversight of the General Services Administration requires particular competencies and poses unique challenges. GSA currently 

oversees $240 million in taxpayer dollars to provide real estate, acquisition, and technology services to the Federal Government and 

American people, as well as that real property issue that has been 

an issue for a long time. If confirmed by the Senate, Ms. Ochoa 

would be responsible for oversight of several high-profile issues at 

the agency, including strategic sourcing, Federal procurement, 

management of the agency’s real property portfolio, and a variety 

of information technology (IT) initiatives. 

As we have learned through previous IG investigations, including 

the infamous 2010 GSA Las Vegas conference, oversight of this 

vast administrative bureaucracy requires an Inspector General that 

is intelligent, tenacious, objective, and independent. We have found 

Ms. Ochoa to be exceptionally qualified for the position in all these 

respects. 
2 

Ms. Ochoa is a native of Youngstown, Ohio. She received a Bachelor of Arts degree from Miami University and a law degree from 

the George Washington University School of Law. After graduation, 

Ms. Ochoa clerked for Chief Judge Charles Clark on the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. After working as a litigation associate at 

Covington & Burling, Ms. Ochoa served in the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, as well as for James 

McKay’s Office of Independent Counsel. 

In 2002, Ms. Ochoa joined the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) Office of the Inspector General, where she served as the Director of 

the Office’s Oversight and Review Division, before her promotion to 

the position of Assistant Inspector General in the Office’s Oversight 

and Review Division. She has served as the Assistant Inspector 

General since 2005. 

In addition to her impressive resume, Ms. Ochoa exhibits integrity befitting an Inspector General. Subcommittee staff reached out 

to a variety of Ms. Ochoa’s colleagues, who spoke highly of her. 

They ascribed to Ms. Ochoa characteristics that will serve her and 

Congress and the Federal taxpayer well in her position as GSA’s 

Inspector General: intelligence, studiousness, impartiality, objectivity, and a skilled management style. 

Staff from both sides of the aisle had the opportunity to interview Ms. Ochoa on an array of issues, ranging from her past accomplishments to her future priorities at GSA were she to be confirmed as Inspector General. She thoughtfully and competently answered each question to the Committee’s satisfaction, including my 

own. 

Given that the Committee has found Ms. Ochoa to be eminently 

qualified to be GSA’s Inspector General, I look forward to speaking 

with her a bit more today on her accomplishments and ideas of 

how she will improve the GSA’s Office of the Inspector General, as 

well as GSA at large. 

I would recognize the Ranking Member, Senator Heitkamp, for 

any kind of opening statement she would like to make as well. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HEITKAMP 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome. I 

can see some beaming family members behind you who, as the 

Chairman was reading your list of very incredible accomplishments, the smiles just got bigger and bigger. I know you cannot see 

them from there, and this can be somewhat nerve-racking, but just 

know that you have a lot of proud family members here. 

Senator LANKFORD. I am going to give you a moment to be able 

to introduce all them in just a moment as well. 

Senator HEITKAMP. OK. I want to say how much I enjoyed our 

discussion in the office and how grateful we are that you are willing to undergo this process, that you are willing to step forward. 

One of the issues that Senator Lankford and I deal with quite a 

bit is how we are going to modernize and attract great talent to 

the Federal workforce. And, obviously, your stepping forward gives 

us hope for the future that other people will follow your path, and 

find a career in public service. But I want to say ditto to everything 

the Chairman just said. 
3 

1The prepared statement of Senator Heitkamp appears in the Appendix on page 19. 

2The prepared statement of Ms. Ochoa appears in the Appendix on page 21. 

I am going to leave that at my opening statement and ask that 

the rest of it be entered into the record.1

Senator LANKFORD. That is great. 

It is the custom of this Committee to swear in all witnesses that 

appear before us, so if you do not mind, we would like to ask you 

to stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this Committee will be the truth, the 

whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. OCHOA. I do. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Let the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative. 

Ms. Ochoa, you have some guests that you brought with you. 

Would you like to introduce any of those before we ask you to be 

able to give your opening statement? 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to do that. 

I do want to thank my family members who are here today: first 

of all, my husband, Jorge, who is my constant support in all things. 

And I have many members here today of the large and loving 

Fortine, Ochoa, and Collier families. I think I will mention by 

name only the youngest ones here: my niece, Christine Fortine, 

from Canfield, Ohio; nephew J. Michael Ochoa, from McLean, Virginia; Isabelle Bettinger, from Columbus, Ohio; and Audrey Collier, 

from Fairfax, Virginia. 

Senator LANKFORD. That is great. Thank you. I will be glad to 

be able to receive your opening statement at this time. 

TESTIMONY OF CAROL F. OCHOA,2 TO BE INSPECTOR 

GENERAL, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Heitkamp, Members of this Committee, thank you for holding this 

hearing today. I am honored to be nominated to serve as the Inspector General at the General Services Administration. I very 

much appreciate the time that Members of this Committee and 

their staffs took to meet with me in advance of the hearing. If confirmed, I look forward to continuing that dialogue. 

In addition to my family, I am very appreciative to be joined here 

as well by colleagues from the Department of Justice Office of the 

Inspector General and by friends from my days in the U.S. Attorney’s Office. And I would like to recognize the staff at the General 

Services Administration Office of the Inspector General and, in 

particular, Deputy Inspector General Robert Erickson, who has 

ably managed the office over the past year when the agency has 

been without a confirmed Inspector General. 

In this time of pressing need to eliminate waste and cut costs for 

the American taxpayer, the position of GSA Inspector General is 

very important. GSA’s extensive real property portfolio and governmentwide procurement programs put it at the forefront of efforts 

to cut costs and achieve cost avoidance for the American taxpayer, 

and the GSA IG has a critical role in ensuring that the taxpayer 

receives maximum value from the GSA’s operations. 
4 

I am confident that my professional experience has equipped me 

well for this position. I have spent over 25 years as a Federal prosecutor and as a manager in the Department of Justice Office of the 

Inspector General. 

I served as a prosecutor for over a decade in the Public Corruption Section of the U.S. Attorney’s Office here in Washington, DC. 

There I was entrusted with some of the office’s most sensitive 

cases, including police corruption, obstruction of justice, and complex fraud and embezzlement matters. 

At the DOJ OIG, I have been privileged to head for the past 12 

years the Oversight and Review Division, which is responsible for 

conducting the most complex, sensitive, and broad-ranging reviews 

and investigations of Department of Justice operations and personnel, many of them classified matters involving the Department’s 

use of national security authorities. 

During this time I have benefited tremendously from working 

closely with two highly respected Inspectors General: Department 

of Justice IG Michael Horowitz and his predecessor, Glenn Fine. 

Their leadership and the work of my extremely talented colleagues 

has resulted in an IG’s office with a strong and well-deserved reputation for independence and objectivity. I believe those qualities 

are absolutely essential for a successful Inspector General, and if 

confirmed, I would commit to ensuring that under my leadership, 

the GSA OIG will be independent, objective, and as transparent as 

possible in everything we do. 

I have a strong memory that when I was sworn in as an Assistant United States Attorney, the U.S. Attorney emphasized Justice 

Sutherland’s admonition that a prosecutor’s role is not to win cases 

but to serve justice, and that a prosecutor may strike hard blows 

but not foul blows. Those words were foundational in my development as a prosecutor, and that standard of fairness and impartiality has guided me as well in my work with the Office of the Inspector General. Simply put, I am used to following the facts wherever they lead, closely analyzing their fit with law and policy, and 

making conclusions based solely on and drawn fairly from those 

findings. That is the mindset I would bring to this job, if confirmed. 

I appreciate your consideration, and I look forward to answering 

any questions you may have. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. I am going to ask several brief 

questions. Then I will come back around a second time and give 

some others some time. 

We have three questions that we ask candidates as they go 

through the process. I will give you the first. Is there anything that 

you are aware of in your background that might present a conflict 

of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been 

nominated? 

Ms. OCHOA. No. 

Senator LANKFORD. Do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably 

discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been 

nominated? 

Ms. OCHOA. No, 
5 

Senator LANKFORD. Do you agree without reservation to comply 

with any request or summons and to appear to testify before any 

duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. OCHOA. I do. 

Senator LANKFORD. Let me say one quick statement and ask one 

follow-up question. One is, to your family and to you, this is a very 

difficult, long process. As Senator Heitkamp had mentioned, we 

want the best of the best to do this. It should not be hard. It should 

be thorough. But it should not be painful in the process, and I hope 

it has been a good process to go through. 

But I would say to you on the other side of this, this Congress 

is very dependent on very independent, very gifted, and tenacious 

Inspectors General. You are the eyes and ears of the American taxpayer in a way that no one else can see. Committee staff will not 

see it; other individuals within GSA will not see it. Uniquely, the 

IG has that view, and we would be very interested in strict independence—not political, not loyal to any administration; loyal to 

the taxpayer. You know as well as I do—you have been around 

Washington long enough—that when a crisis breaks, they go typically to the Inspectors General to say, ‘‘Why didn’t you see this in 

advance?’’ and to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) and 

say, ‘‘Was there a report? Did you go see these things?’’ So that role 

is extremely important. 

So my question to you is: The tenacity and the independence, do 

you feel ready to be able to take that on, as you said, not to hit 

foul but to hit hard in the process, feel that you are at a position 

right now to say, ‘‘I am willing to be able to step in and to be fair 

in a group, but to also make sure the taxpayer and the individuals 

within the agency are also protected? 

Ms. OCHOA. I do feel ready to do that, Chairman Lankford. I 

think that that is the life I have been living for the past 12 years 

with the OIG for DOJ, and I am committed to carrying that same 

standard of independence and excellence forward to GSA. 

Senator LANKFORD. Great. Thank you. 

Let me defer to Senator Heitkamp. 

Senator HEITKAMP. I want to just for a moment talk a little bit 

about the process that you went through, and I was, quite honestly, 

shocked when you came to my office, and I said, ‘‘Well, how long 

have you been at this?’’ Almost 2 years, is that correct, Ms. Ochoa? 

Ms. OCHOA. Yes. The process started for me in late October 2013 

when the Council for Inspectors General put my name forward as 

a candidate for an Inspector General position. 

Senator HEITKAMP. Well, we would be very curious, having now 

gone through it, and looking at your record of accomplishments. 

And I know that someone with your accomplishments also thinks 

about reforms and what would make that process easier. And so I 

am curious about what you thought along the way would have 

made it much easier, so thank goodness you stuck with it. But I 

think a lot of people fall off because they are not in a position like 

yours here you can keep your day job and wait for this process and 

this confirmation process to go forward. They have to eventually 

make a decision and move on with their life. 

And so I am curious about, given your experience, what recommendations you would make to this body in terms of clearing 
6 

the hurdles. Maybe as Senator Lankford said, we do not want 

shortcuts taken, but we do not want excessive periods of time without real value added to the process being experienced by our nominees. So I am curious what recommendations you would make. 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you, Senator. As you mentioned, this process 

was long for me, but I was fortunate to be in a supportive environment, working in an IG’s office with a very strong IG who promotes 

getting more IGs out there. 

In terms of recommendations, I can tell you that when Brian 

Miller resigned from his position as GSA IG in April 2014, I did 

make a very strong expression of interest in this position, and from 

that time forward, the process moved along. I was nominated in 

March 2015, and then this Committee moved very quickly, which 

I really appreciate. To go from nomination to a hearing in the short 

period of time I much appreciate. 

The reason for the process taking so much longer up to that 

point I am not entirely sure of. I know that the people I was working with in the Office of Presidential Personnel were very courteous, very professional, very much determined to find good candidates. It seemed to me that they were a small office with a lot 

of jobs to fill, and so the question may be better directed to them. 

Do they need more resources? 

Senator HEITKAMP. I think it is curious, because you were in 

such a position of authority and responsibility before you were 

nominated for this position. A lot of that background material probably had already been done. A lot of the kind of analysis in terms 

of your capability to do this type of work had already been done, 

and so it was a little discouraging. 

We have held a number of hearings throughout both the Committee, the Committee as a whole, and this Subcommittee on issues 

involving government efficiency and government responsibility as it 

relates to property management, as it relates to kind of overall 

oversight of other agencies. 

What complications do you see coming from DOJ where you are 

looking at an agency in and of itself to an agency that really has 

a broader responsibility for all of government? What kind of complications do you see kind of moving into this new role, both in 

terms of size and scope? 

Ms. OCHOA. That is a good question. I do not know that I would 

call them complications so much as challenges perhaps. GSA does 

have a leadership role in a lot of Federal Governmentwide initiatives, including on the Federal real property side, as you mentioned. And the contracting authority is massive. I mean, the 

amount of taxpayer dollars going through there is a large number. 

I see that part of my job will be to coordinate with other oversight authorities so that the GSA OIG can look deeply at what GSA 

is doing itself in the leadership role to implement these initiatives, 

what policies it has in place, what strategies it is using, whether 

it is meeting its own measures and milestones, whether it has a 

contracting work up to snuff considering the sophisticated workforce they are up against in the private industry. And I see coordinating with entities like GAO, which has the broader picture of 

how all the other Federal agencies are contributing to the efforts 
7 

to, for example, Freeze the Footprint, dispose of excess property, 

and so forth. 

Senator HEITKAMP. I think why you see other Members here is 

how significant we see the role of the Inspector General to the 

overall safety and soundness and fraud watch in the U.S. Government, and I think the President has made an excellent choice in 

advancing you. We are grateful to have you, and from my part, I 

just want to extend our assistance. This Committee exists to assist 

the IGs, as the Chairman has said. It is there to get input from 

the IGs, and we should be your partner, your oversight partner, as 

you look at the functions of the agency going forward. 

And so I want you to know you always have an open door to this 

Committee and certainly to us individually as you begin to explore 

and look at not just reporting what you see, but maybe thinking 

beyond that on what kinds of things can be done that could prevent 

bad things from happening in the future and to create greater efficiencies in government. And so thank you again. We look forward 

to your work and seeing your work product as the months go on. 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST 

Senator LANKFORD. Senator Ernst. 

Senator ERNST. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member. 

I appreciate this opportunity very much. 

Ms. Ochoa, very nice to have you here. Your qualifications are 

exemplary, so I appreciate all that you have been through as well 

as your family members. 

There are numerous challenges, and you have mentioned Freeze 

the Footprint and some of these other significant initiatives that 

we have across the government. And so I am just going to talk 

about very briefly just two issues that I have seen in recent weeks, 

and then if you can just expound a little bit further. But the first 

is that we are focusing also on real property. You mentioned Freeze 

the Footprint. And one thing that I have spent a lot of time on is 

taking a look at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) and how 

we work with that organization. And there are inefficiencies everywhere, but really what I have seen in the last number of months 

has been the Department of Veterans Affairs, whether it is the 

health care aspect or the real property that they own, we really 

need to find a way that we can improve efficiency with the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

So I understand that the VA manages a significant portion of its 

own real property inventory, but to the extent that the GSA does 

work with the VA, I would want to know, if you are confirmed, that 

you would be willing to work with the VA on effectively utilizing 

those property holdings by the VA. Is that something that you can 

manage and work with them on? 

Ms. OCHOA. Yes, I can certainly work in the role of the IG in 

looking at GSA’s strategy to give guidance to the VA in terms of 

keeping track of the inventory, deciding what properties to keep, 

what properties to dispose of. 

Senator ERNST. Very good. And, again, that is in your extent of 

the role of the IG, but then also just last week, the GSA Office of 

Inspector General did issue a report on the GSA’s surplus firearms 
8 

donation program, and to be honest, before this report, I was not 

aware of this particular program. I do not think many people are. 

But this report raised concerns that the program’s inadequate data 

management and the inaccurate inventory records, which are primarily done in a paper format and managed by a single agency employee—huge concerns there. This could result in the theft or loss 

or unauthorized use of those firearms that are donated to this program. And I would just like to raise that issue to you, express my 

sincere concerns about this program and how it is managed. With 

those two areas, with the VA, with the surplus firearm donation 

program, and so many other issues out there, I would like to ask 

you just what do you think your greatest challenges might be, and 

how do you think you could work around those? 

Ms. OCHOA. I see a number of challenges facing GSA that the 

GSA IG has to keep track of. One of them is obviously real property management, and I know you have had a recent hearing on 

that. You do not need to hear from me what those problems are. 

But that is an area that I see the IG needs to be very observant 

about and to monitor closely and to work with GAO so that we are 

not duplicating or overlapping efforts in our respective oversight responsibilities for that area. 

I also see big challenges on the procurement side. There is a lot 

happening with GSA’s procurement programs, and one major issue 

I see is this changeover to category management, which has the 

laudable goal—and GSA is part of it—has the laudable goal of requiring vendors to provide more transactional data so that government buyers can make more informed decisions. A laudable goal, 

but both industry and government folks are raising concerns about 

whether that effort has been thought through fully at this point. 

They are raising concerns about logistics of providing the information and exactly how GSA will be able to manage and analyze the 

information and preserve its security. 

So that just tells me that because both industry and government 

are raising issues, I need to be paying attention to that issue. 

Senator ERNST. Fantastic. I thank you very much for your service and your continued service as well to our Nation, so thank you 

very much. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. Senator Baldwin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BALDWIN 

Senator BALDWIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member, for holding this nomination hearing. 

Ms. Ochoa, thank you for being here today and for your willingness to serve in this incredibly important job. 

As Members of Congress and particularly as Members of this 

Committee, we exercise our oversight and legislative responsibilities, and we rely very heavily on IG audits, on IG reports, and investigations. It is critical to providing robust oversight over the 

various agencies and ensuring that we are being good stewards of 

the taxpayer dollars. So, again, I thank you for being willing to 

serve in this very important role. 

I wonder, if confirmed, if you can tell us how you would approach 

your work with Congress, given our need to rely heavily on IGs’ 
9 

work. What do you see as your priorities in communicating with us 

as Members of both this Committee and Members of the Senate? 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you, Senator Baldwin. I do think that is an 

important topic. I am very aware of my dual reporting obligations 

by statute, and I think for me my goal is to have strong and open 

lines of communication with both GSA leadership and the oversight 

committees who have important work in the same area that I will 

be working in. 

And so I expect to be keeping both GSA leadership and Congress 

informed through briefings of our findings, through responses to 

written inquiries from the Committee, for example, by our public 

reports that I expect to be comprehensive and accurate and fair, 

and, of course, through the semiannual reporting process. And I 

would hope to have good lines of communication at the staff level 

as well through the Legislative Affairs Office at GSA OIG. 

Senator BALDWIN. Excellent. In this same vein, I have the honor 

in serving on this full Committee of being the Ranking Member of 

the Subcommittee on Federal Spending and Oversight (FSO), and 

my goal, I know along with our Chairman, is to find areas within 

Federal Government where we can find efficiencies and cut costs. 

We just had a hearing last week in which we discussed several 

areas where we can reduce waste, including improper payments, 

where we can reduce duplication, and so I just, again, in the same 

vein as my first question, ask how you would prioritize and, based 

on what you know about GSA operations, what are some of the 

areas that you see initially that are ripe for cost savings? 

Ms. OCHOA. Well, I have mentioned already the real property 

area, which, again, you know much more about that than I do at 

this point, and the procurement side of things. What I expect to do, 

if confirmed, when I arrive at GSA OIG is to spend some time talking about these very issues with senior management there. I want 

to see how we are doing on the priorities that have already been 

set. I want to take a measure of whether resources have been directed as best as they can be, and I will want to have some searching conversations about what our priorities should be going forward. 

Senator BALDWIN. On real property management—and you have 

already touched on this. Not surprisingly, our Committee members 

are very interested in this particular area. It has been on the 

GAO’s high-risk list every year since 2003. And yet the GAO found 

that the GSA lacks an action plan to reduce its heavy reliance on 

leasing, and the GSA has not determined which leases would be 

good candidates for ownership investments. 

Sometimes we are tempted to ask you questions that should be 

directed to the GSA proper, but you are here right now, so as the 

watchdog for the agency, how do you plan to jump in and work 

with the GSA to tackle these difficult problems? 

Ms. OCHOA. Well, in the oversight capacity of the IG, I would expect to learn from GSA leadership what their strategy is right now. 

My sense is that there are some statutory issues that I know this 

Committee is interested in, but for the GSA IG, I would be looking 

at what is the plan, what are the measuring tools that you are 

going to be using, what are the controls you are going to put in 

place to make sure that you, GSA, are meeting those marks. 
10 

Senator BALDWIN. And, also, the GSA has struggled to maintain 

the Federal Real Property Profile, the database that captures all of 

the property that is under the control of Executive Branch agencies. Again, this database has, according to the GAO, consistently 

included inaccurate inventory and outcome information. So, again, 

in your role as watchdog for the agency, how do you plan to dive 

in there and make sure that that database is accurate? 

Ms. OCHOA. That is a good question, because obviously you cannot manage what you do not know you have exactly. And there 

have been longstanding problems with that portfolio. I have read 

a number of GAO reports on the issue. 

Again, from the IG’s perspective, the question to GSA that I 

would be asking would be: What are you doing to make sure that 

your own data, GSA, is reliable? What are you doing in terms of 

getting out guidance to the other Federal agencies about what are 

the definitions for the criteria that go into that data set? Because 

if agencies are applying different definitions to the set of criteria, 

then you are going to be comparing apples to oranges, and that 

does not do anyone any good. So that would be where I would start. 

Senator BALDWIN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator LANKFORD. Senator McCaskill. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCASKILL 

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you. Welcome to the IG community. 

As you know, this Committee has a tradition of working with IGs 

closely. My office is one that has worked very hard making sure 

that IGs have all the tools they need, not just budget but also independence and other tools. Oh, sorry. 

I know that you are not in a position, based on your written responses, to really get into the implementation of the System for 

Award Management (SAM), which is this large effort to combine 

databases on contracting. I have spent more time in this Committee room than I am willing to admit going through all of the 

problems with integrated acquisition environment and trying to 

make sure that this SAM was not going to be another IT boondoggle with a bad ending. I am worried that it is, in fact, an IT 

boondoggle with a bad ending. 

So we will wait until you are confirmed to ask you questions 

about SAM, but know that that will be something for which you 

will come back after you get the job, and we will have some penetrating questions for you, which I know that you will be able to 

handle with your background as a prosecutor. 

I want to spend my time today talking to you about one of the 

tools that I think is essential for IGs, and that is the power of testimonial subpoena. Now, I am going to put you in a bad spot here, 

but I am so frustrated with the Department of Justice opposition 

to this. You were a prosecutor for a long time in the U.S. Attorney’s 

Office here in the District of Columbia, which means—I am going 

to show my bias now. That means you were a real prosecutor, because you guys know what 911 calls are in the District of Columbia. The vast majority of the U.S. Attorney’s Offices have no urgency; they decide where they are going to go when they follow in-
11 

vestigations, but they do not have to take everything. They pick 

what they take. 

Now, against that backdrop, we have 72 IGs that are trying to 

root out waste and fraud for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds 

of billions of dollars versus the Department of Justice, who is objecting to us giving IGs testimonial subpoenas. And we have even 

gone so far as to say they can veto one. They will not even say it 

is OK when we say you get a testimonial subpoena, but the Department of Justice gets to tell an IG, ‘‘No, you cannot do that one,’’ 

because they are worried about it interfering with their investigations. 

With all due respect, the Department of Justice is busy, but they 

are not busy enough to handcuff the entire community of Inspectors General in this country. And so I would like to ask you, would 

you like to have the power of testimonial subpoena as the Inspector 

General at GSA? 

Ms. OCHOA. Yes, I would, very much. I think when we need it. 

It does not come up that often, but it has come up when Department employees leave the Department during the course of an investigation, and then we are unable to get them to come and speak 

to us, unless they come in voluntarily. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Which they are not going to do. 

Ms. OCHOA. Some have decided not to talk to us after leaving the 

Department about matters that they handled while at the Department, and that is the crux of the matter to me. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, I want to enlist you to a new assignment as an Inspector General, and that will be I want you to help 

lead the lobbying effort on your former colleagues at the Department of Justice so they understand that they are being incredibly 

self-centered and irresponsible by continuing to try to block this 

legislation for this important tool for Inspectors General, and that 

is the main thing I wanted to get out of you today, that you will 

help us in this effort to make them understand that there is—like 

any test in the law, you weigh their desire to control this process 

versus the benefit that could come to the public. And I do not think 

it is even close when you weigh it. So I will ask you to step up and 

be helpful in that regard, and hopefully we can get this last barrier 

cleared. We have gotten a lot of them cleared over the last 5 years. 

We would like to get this barrier cleared for testimonial subpoenas. 

Ms. OCHOA. I appreciate that, and you will have my support on 

that. 

Senator MCCASKILL. Great. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator LANKFORD. Just as a clarification on that, Senator 

McCaskill, when the candidate is discussing this with DOJ, does 

she need to use the terms ‘‘irresponsible’’ and ‘‘self-centered’’? 

[Laughter.] 

Is that part of it? 

Senator MCCASKILL. I think that would be good. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. 

Senator MCCASKILL. ‘‘Selfish,’’ ‘‘irresponsible,’’ ‘‘self-centered.’’ 

Every investigation does not revolve around the Department of 

Justice, contrary to what they think sometimes. 
12 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. Message delivered. [Laughter.] Senator 

Peters. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS 

Senator PETERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ms. 

Ochoa, for being here and for testifying. This is a very important 

position. Unfortunately, we have a lot of IG positions that have 

been going unfilled for too long, and it is nice to see that we are 

moving forward. And I also want to thank you for coming to my 

office. We had an opportunity to have a more detailed discussion 

about some of the things that you are looking to do, and I wish you 

well in those endeavors. It is a very important position and we 

need to have you on the job giving Congress the information that 

we need to know how these departments are performing, and I look 

forward to working with you. 

I have a couple issues, one that I just wanted to get a sense from 

you. It is my understanding the GSA offers a number of 

cybersecurity solutions in purchasing programs for agencies, and 

obviously cybersecurity has become a pretty big issue lately, particularly with some of the breaches that we have seen. It seems to 

me that it would be an issue ripe for you to take a look at. 

What sort of thought have you given to cybersecurity? And what 

types of activities do you think you envision yourself engaging in? 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you, Senator Peters. That is a great question, 

and it is an area that I have given some thought to. Cybersecurity 

is something we have to get right. Information security in the government is important, and one thing that strikes me as I look at 

that issue is that, again, it goes back to the contracting workforce 

at GSA. Those are the people that are vital to this effort, and security needs to be built in at the acquisition stage. 

So from the GSA IG position, I would want to be making sure 

that GSA is doing everything it can to attract, to train, and to retain contracting officers who can speak the language of IT, who understand what they are working with, and who can responsibly perform contracting responsibilities over those types of procurement. 

And that, of course, also means that as GSA IG, if confirmed, I 

would have to make sure that I am growing a corps of auditors who 

understand IT and who can provide meaningful audits in this area. 

Senator PETERS. Good. And as you perform those audits, one 

thing that we talked about when I had a chance to spend some 

time with you, as you know, a concern of mine is that we get IG 

studies and recommendations, and yet there is not necessarily the 

follow-through with the agencies, and some of the recommendations that are made do not actually get implemented. 

Do you have any idea or any suggestions for us here in Congress 

how we can strengthen the ability to make sure that when you 

have findings, we actually do something with those findings and 

the agencies actually implement the recommendations that you 

make? What would you like to see us do—I guess is my question— 

to help you? 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you for that question. I do think it is helpful 

when Congress requests and IGs provide information on priority 

recommendations that remain unfulfilled. That in itself brings 

higher visibility to those recommendations and may prompt agen-
13 

cies when we are about to report to Congress on unfulfilled recommendations to go ahead and do what they can to try to close 

some out. So that is helpful. 

Senator PETERS. So the work of this Committee to continue to 

highlighting your work is going to be necessary in order to actually 

see these actions taken, the things that you are recommending. 

Ms. OCHOA. I think it is helpful. I think the onus is also in part 

on the IGs themselves to follow through on the recommendations, 

to keep a tickler system, to go back to the agency and to say, 

‘‘Where are you?’’ and ‘‘Here is what we think about where you are 

and what you still need to do.’’ 

Senator PETERS. And is that what you intend to do? You are 

going to be aggressive in going after them? 

Ms. OCHOA. I do intend to be as aggressive there as I have been 

at DOJ. 

Senator PETERS. That leads me to actually my last question on 

the DOJ, because you worked with Inspectors General Horowitz 

and Fine who were there, and I know you worked very closely. Now 

that you are seeking this new position, what are some of the top 

lessons that you learned from working with them that you hope to 

bring to your work at the GSA? 

Ms. OCHOA. There are a lot of things I could talk about with respect to both men, and they really have been invaluable to me in 

thinking about this job. I will just try to pick out one thing for 

each. 

Senator PETERS. Yes, just one thing that you are going to be taking with you, should you get confirmed to this new position. 

Ms. OCHOA. Sure. IG Horowitz I think has been a real example 

of how to fulfill the dual reporting requirement. He really works 

very hard to make sure he has those open lines of communication 

both with Congress and with Department leadership, and that is 

an example that is important for me. 

IG Fine had just an incredible laser focus on the mission he was 

seeking to fulfill and was just incomparable in terms of how he was 

able to focus on the work day in and day out of the office and make 

sure that it was independent, accurate, and as fair as possible. 

Senator PETERS. Well, good. We look forward to working with 

you, Ms. Ochoa. We wish you much success, and it is a pleasure 

to have an opportunity to get to know you. Let me know how we 

can be helpful to you in your work. 

Ms. OCHOA. Thank you. 

Senator PETERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator LANKFORD. Thank you. 

Ms. Ochoa, let me have a little more advanced conversation on 

the real property issue. We had a hearing on that just yesterday. 

It has been an ongoing issue. You had mentioned before we gave 

you a little bit of time to get up to speed on it. Heads up, I guess, 

from this Committee and the work of this Committee. It has been 

a central focus for 20 years, and it is unresolved for 20 years. So 

when we talk about stepping into it, there are a lot of ideas that 

are floating around. What we absolutely need is someone on the inside to say here is where the process breaks down, and these are 

the areas that need to be fixed and a set of recommendations for 

it. This is billions of dollars, and it is billions of dollars not only 
14 

in maintenance and upkeep of facilities that are underutilized or 

unutilized at all, but also properties that should be in the private 

market that need to get off of our inventory entirely. So it the management of facilities that currently sit there; it is the transition out 

of other facilities. 

I spoke to someone in one of the agencies not long ago that said 

they just disposed of a property that took 20 years to dispose of, 

and it cost $22 million just in the disposal. That cannot continue 

to be replicated. We have to be better at this. And so it is one of 

those areas—I know several of us on the dais have talked about it. 

It will keep coming back to you as a major priority of how do we 

streamline the process of Federal property disposal when it is time 

to dispose of property. 

The other issue that has come up several times and you will continue to hear it is the distinction between a lease and buy. When 

the taxpayer is evaluating which one is better, they want to know 

which one is more efficient in the use of the Federal taxpayer dollar. When agencies look at it, they are looking at this year’s budget 

and often lease is better for them than buying, because if they 

leased it, then they can build it into the budget, though it is going 

to cost a lot more over then 15 years to the taxpayer, and it is a 

building we are going to hang on to for 30 years. We have to be 

able to hit that balance. A long-term look rather than just a 1-year 

focus will be an on going issue. Just to let you know that is going 

to be an ongoing issue that will keep coming back to you until we 

can find a way to get this resolved. 

The Office of Personnel Management—and this is not a hearing 

about them, but the recent announcement about what is happening 

in cybersecurity put a tremendous number of Federal employees 

and people in the Federal family at risk. It is very important that 

the IGs have a sense of independence and tenacity that, when they 

see critical risk areas, they have the communication with this Committee and with Congress and with the agency to not just write a 

report and assume it is done, but to wave the red flag until the bull 

comes and just to keep going on it. 

We will need at times your tenacity, because there will be moments where this is serious and this affects a lot of lives. Dollars 

matter. Lives are even more important. So when that time comes, 

our expectation would be that you would not turn in a report and 

wash your hands of it, but that you would beat on our door to make 

sure in all the clutter of all the things that are going on, someone’s 

attention is grabbed to say this one is important. That report can 

wait until next week. This one needs to be today. 

So just know you will have that kind of report with us. Our door 

will be open to you. We have tremendous respect for the IG community and what they do for the taxpayer. But continue to press 

on some of those issues so it is not a report and over but it is an 

ongoing part of it. 

So with that, let me ask you one other question. Speaking with 

Michael Horowitz and others that you have already mentioned, 

they have done a very good job of maintaining independence and 

still maintaining a relationship. As you mentioned before, that dual 

role. The IG’s role is not a ‘‘gotcha’’ role to try to embarrass the 
15 

agency. It is to help them fix the problem and to develop ideas on 

what to do and, in their busyness, to be able to resolve it. 

So with that, what steps would you recommend that you take 

and your office puts into place to make sure you maintain your 

independence, that when it is time to do something hard, you still 

have the independence to do it? So how do you put boundaries 

around yourself, I guess, to be able to make sure you maintain that 

independence? 

Ms. OCHOA. You are really asking how it is I can stay true to 

that mission, and in thinking about that, I think the best I can tell 

you is that for me it is all about knowing in my core that an IG’s 

job is to be independent, and that if an IG compromises that independence, skews the results of a report for improper reasons, then 

that IG has utterly lost credibility with her own staff, has lost 

credibility with Congress, with the agency, and is no longer serving 

the purpose of the job. And so knowing that and messaging that 

to the staff at the GSA OIG is something that I take very seriously. 

Senator LANKFORD. OK. That is great. 

One other comment that I have and question, I guess, with that 

is the temptation at times that when you get into the inner workings of the machine of an agency, it is all about developing efficiency of the agency, and that is a benefit. You want it to be a 

great place to work, and you want people that are within the agency to have good morale. They know their voices are being heard, 

and they know things can get fixed within the agency. But if it is 

just about making the agency run smoother and not about protecting the taxpayer or the long-term vision of it, then we have lost 

focus somewhat. 

So there is no way really to be able to answer this one way or 

the other, but I would just challenge you in the days ahead to have 

something built in place where, if the IG’s role becomes more of us 

greasing the machine rather than actually helping solve the problems or helping protect the taxpayer, that there is a moment to be 

able to reset, there is a time to be able to evaluate it. Are we 

spending more time making the machine run better? Are we spending more time protecting the taxpayer and trying to solve long-term 

issues like the real property issues that remain unsolved for 20 

years? 

So that is just one of those balance things, I would just encourage you in the days ahead, because it will be tough to be able to 

get into it. 

I think I am the final questioner. Chairman Johnson is trying to 

get here as well right now. He is coming over from another hearing. I would ask you, if you had final statements or final questions 

that you would have leaving us. We have already had your opening 

statement before, but if you have final comments on other issues, 

we would be pleased to be able to hear those. 

Ms. OCHOA. I appreciate that. I feel that with the meetings that 

I was afforded in advance of this hearing and with this hearing 

today, I really do not have any other questions for you. I really appreciate the time that has been taken, the speed with which this 

process proceeded from nomination to the hearing today, and the 

support that this Committee has strenuously given to the IG community. Thank you for that. 
16 

Senator LANKFORD. Well, do not tell the other folks on the nomination process that this has been fast. You need to probably tell 

them it has been mercilessly slow. [Laughter.] 

Because they will be very jealous of the speed that this has come 

about. Our hope is that this sets a new precedent for how we are 

moving nominees, that when a nominee comes, especially as qualified as you are in the task, with the references that you have in 

this task, to be able to expedite that process and to be able to move 

quickly on it. So hopefully we can get that resolved. We have a few 

judges that are hanging out there and all kinds of other individuals 

that are in the flow that we need to get corrected quickly and get 

us back to work. 

So let me say thank you to your family. This is a tough journey 

for all of you as well to be able to watch this detail as it all unfolds, 

and so I appreciate your support through this journey. It is not fun. 

Fortunately, when the job is actually taken on, the job is lots of 

fun. So there is nothing more fun than the IG community, right? 

You deal with tender emotions and people who do not like to be 

challenged on the outside, but the job will actually be tougher than 

the nomination process in the days ahead. But that will be a different day. 

Hold on for just a moment. 

[Pause.] 

The Chairman is caught up, so I am not going to keep delaying 

for him on that. 

Ms. Ochoa has filed responses to biographical and financial questionnaires, answered prehearing questions submitted by the Committee, and had her financial statements reviewed by the Office of 

Government Ethics. Without objection, this information will be 

made a part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which are on file and available for public inspection in 

the Committee offices. 

The hearing record will remain open until 5 p.m. tomorrow, June 

18, 2015, for the submission of statements and questions for the 

record. 

Without any further questions, this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 
(17) 

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