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98–685 2016

A REVIEW OF VA’S VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION 

AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC 

OPPORTUNITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

WEDNESDAY, JULY 8, 2015 

Serial No. 114–30 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 


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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

JEFF MILLER, Florida, Chairman 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida, Vice-Chairman 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee 

DAN BENISHEK, Michigan 

TIM HUELSKAMP, Kansas 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

RALPH ABRAHAM, Louisiana 

LEE ZELDIN, New York 

RYAN COSTELLO, Pennsylvania 

AMATA RADEWAGEN, American Samoa 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida, Ranking 

Minority Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

RAUL RUIZ, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

JON TOWERS, Staff Director 

DON PHILLIPS, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio, Chairman 

LEE ZELDIN, New York 

AMATA RADEWAGEN, American Samoa 

RYAN COSTELLO, Pennsylvania 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 

Member 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of rule XI of the Rules of the House, public hearing records 

of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs are also published in electronic form. The printed 

hearing record remains the official version. Because electronic submissions are used to 

prepare both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process of converting 

between various electronic formats may introduce unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the current publication process and should diminish as the process 

is further refined. 


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C O N T E N T S 

Wednesday, July 8, 2015 

Page 

A Review of VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program ............ 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Brad Wenstrup, Chairman ...................................................................................... 1 

Mark Takano, Ranking Member ............................................................................ 3 

WITNESSES 

Mr. Paul R. Varela, Assistant National Legislative Director, Disabled American Veterans ........................................................................................................ 4 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 36 

Ms. Heather Ansley, Associate General Counsel for Corporate and Government Relations, Paralyzed Veterans of America ............................................... 5 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 45 

Mr. Ross A. Meglathery, MPA, Director of VetsFirst, United Spinal Association ........................................................................................................................ 7 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 54 

Mr. Jack Kammerer, Director, Vocational Rehabilitating and Employment 

Service, VBA, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs ......................................... 24 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 60 

Mr. Ralph Charlip, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and Management, Veterans’ Employment and Training Service, U.S. Department of 

Labor ..................................................................................................................... 26 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 71 

STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD 

Mr. Benjamin L. Krause, J.D. ................................................................................ 77 

National Association of Veteran Program Administrators ................................... 89 


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A REVIEW OF VA’S VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM 

Wednesday, July 8, 2015 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in 

Room 334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Brad Wenstrup 

[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Wenstrup, Costello, Radewagen, 

Takano, Rice, and McNerney. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN BRAD WENSTRUP 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Good morning, everyone. I want to welcome you 

all to the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity’s hearing today 

entitled, A Review of VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program. 

Today the subcommittee will conduct an oversight hearing on the 

Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment, VR&E, program at the 

Department of Veterans Affairs, a program designed to help our severely wounded and disabled veterans by helping them find gainful 

employment and reach maximum independent living. Every day, 

VR&E’s masters level counselors work diligently with veterans in 

the program to help them create a rehabilitation plan and execute 

that plan, while also being a constant resource and source of support for the participant as they go through the rehab program. 

I agree with those that have said that the VR&E program should 

be the crown jewel of benefits provided to veterans through the 

Veterans Benefit Administration. This program has the opportunity to provide our most injured veterans with great rehabilitative services and support as they go down the pathway of 

transitioning to gainful employment and/or an independent life following their service. 

This program is more than just a benefits program. It is also a 

vital first step for disabled veterans to become more financially 

independent, which is a win-win for veterans and taxpayers alike. 

For several years now we have seen the participation in VR&E 

increase, and the President’s latest budget submission anticipates 

a 10 percent increase of veterans participating in the program in 

fiscal year 2016. And as VBA continues to move through the current disability claims backlog, it would seem logical that the participation numbers for VR&E will only continue to rise. 


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However, despite the increase in caseload numbers, it is concerning that for the second year in a row, the President’s budget 

has flatlined counselors and resources for this critical program. 

Caseloads for counselors have always been a concern of this subcommittee, and I am worried that our concerns seem to have fallen 

on deaf ears. 

Our first panel would tell us that the industry standard for participant-to-counselor ratio should be around 1 to 125. However, we 

have heard reports that some VR&E counselors have caseloads of 

upwards of 230 veterans. It is our duty to ensure that our VR&E 

counselors have the resources they need as well as manageable 

caseload numbers so that our veterans are receiving the thorough 

and quality services they deserve in a timely manner. 

I look forward to hearing from VA today on how they plan to 

tackle these ever-increasing participation numbers and caseloads 

while acting within the constraints of their current budget environment. 

I am also concerned with the coordination between VA and the 

Department of Labor, and have specific concerns about VR&E’s creation of Veteran Employment Coordinators, who seem to provide 

the exact same job placement services that are supposed to be provided by Department of Labor’s Disabled Veterans Outreach Program Specialists, DVOPS, and Local Veterans Employment Representatives, LVERs. 

The question is, has VA created these new positions out of frustration with DOL? We have been told that many DVOPS and 

LVERs are failing to fulfill their mission and don’t properly assist 

rehabilitated veterans into meaningful employment. However, I am 

concerned that the creation of these new positions is a clear duplication of services, which not only causes confusion to the veteran, 

but is also a waste of taxpayer-funded time and money. I am looking forward to hearing how well VA and DOL are working together 

for the good of the veteran and how the role of the Veterans Employment Coordinators under VA differs from the role of DOLs, 

DVOPS and LVERs. 

One of the great things about VR&E is that it is such an individualized program and is designed to cater to each veteran, but with 

that comes the difficult task of truly measuring outcomes and rehabilitation rates as well as ensuring consistency of services provided 

nationally by all VR&E counselors. 

I know over the years VA has tried unsuccessfully to track longterm outcome measures that show true success, and I look forward 

to learning more about VR&E’s progress in rolling out their new 

performance metrics that they have been in the process of implementing. I do want to ensure that these new performance metrics 

don’t negatively impact the counselor’s ability to provide quality 

services to veterans. 

Finally, I want to examine VR&E’s IT system and the progress 

they are making towards the much needed upgrade to move to a 

paperless system. Last month, this subcommittee favorably reported my bill, H.R. 2344 as amended, which would, among many 

important reforms, authorize funding to update VR&E’s corporate 

IT system, called CWINRS, to improve oversight and tracking of 

taxpayer resources and the outcomes of VR&E participants. AlVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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though VA has said that they have already allocated money to 

make these upgrades, we have seen in the past that this money 

can easily be reallocated to other priorities, and my bill would ensure that this does not happen again. 

I do look forward to hearing about any progress the Department 

has already made in its efforts to move to a paperless and streamlined system, as well as how they are working with their VSO partners to ensure that they are also able to access the system in the 

future. 

I am sure we can all agree that this program has the ability to 

greatly improve the lives of veterans but that more work still needs 

to be done so that we fulfill our promise to every eligible veteran. 

Hopefully, this hearing today will be yet another positive step forward in continuing to make these needed improvements. 

With that, I recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Takano, for his 

opening remarks. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER MARK TAKANO 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for calling this hearing. I will be brief. We are here today to assess the 

effectiveness of the Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program, which has seen many changes and attempts at reform over 

the past few years, but which will be increasingly important in the 

lives of American servicemembers as they transition to veteran status, not as a result of the drawdown of forces from Afghanistan. I, 

and I am sure others on the committee, are here to find out, are 

eligible veterans accessing the program; what are the measurable 

results; are the program’s full-time employee resources adequate to 

handle the number of servicemembers that will result from the 

drawdown of active duty forces from Afghanistan; and as VBA continues to make progress in whittling down the disability claims 

backlog. And I am pleased to hear the chairman and the majority 

express concern about the flatline in the President’s budget with 

regard to counselors. We should really find out if our counselor capacity is adequate. 

What is the status of efforts to improve IT for the program and 

to integrate it into VBMS? What is the status of the six recommendations made by the GAO in its study of the program a year 

and a half ago? And finally, how well are the VA and the DOL 

working together to ensure that any veteran who is able and eager 

to work finds meaningful employment? 

So I appreciate the witnesses being here this morning to help us 

answer these questions, and I do look forward to their testimony. 

Thank you, and I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I thank the ranking member. 

I now invite our first panel to the table. Joining us today is Mr. 

Paul Varela, Assistant National Legislative Director for the Disabled American Veterans; Ms. Heather Ansley, associate general 

counsel for Corporate and Government Relations for Paralyzed Veterans of America; and Mr. Ross Meglathery, director of VetsFirst, 

a program of the United Spinal Association. 

All of your complete written statements will be made part of the 

hearing record, and each of you will be recognized for 5 minutes 


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for your oral statement. Let’s begin with Mr. Varela. You are now 

recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF PAUL R. VARELA 

Mr. VARELA. Thank you, and good morning, Dr. Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you 

for inviting DAV to testify at this important hearing to review VA’s 

Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment, VR&E, services program. 

As you know, DAV is a non-profit veterans service organization 

comprised of 1.2 million wartime wounded, injured, and ill veterans 

dedicated to a single purpose, and that is empowering veterans to 

lead high quality lives with respect and dignity. 

As the Nation’s largest VSO comprised entirely of wartime disabled veterans, DAV is leading the way in providing free assistance 

to veterans and their families in filing claims for benefits as well 

as representation in appeals of unfavorable decisions. 

DAV’s core mission is carried out through our national service 

program. Our chapter service officers, department service officers, 

transition service officers, and national service officers have never 

wavered in their commitment to serve our Nation’s wounded, injured, and ill veterans, their families, and survivors, or any veteran, for that matter. In all, DAV has 3,815 service officers, including county veteran service officers accredited by DAV, all of whom 

are on the front lines providing much-needed claims services to our 

nation’s veterans, their families, and survivors. 

DAV service officers bring valuable military and personal experience while performing their daily service work. They understand 

the rigors of military service and challenges associated with navigating the VA healthcare and claims processing systems. DAV 

NSOs in particular have themselves participated and successfully 

completed a VR&E rehabilitation plan as part of our DAV 16- 

month on-the-job training program. Due to our backgrounds in 

training, DAV NSOs not only possess a significant knowledge base, 

but also a passion for helping our fellow veterans navigate a sometimes complicated VA system and its myriad benefit programs. 

In addition to assisting veterans and their dependents file claims 

for disability compensation, our NSOs regularly advise veterans on 

the opportunities and benefits afforded by VA’s VR&E program. As 

part of our lifelong continuing education program, DAV NSOs are 

trained on all VR&E programs, and we regularly refer and encourage our clients to consider VR&E programs when appropriate. 

The VR&E program assists veterans with service-connected disabilities in preparing for, finding, and keeping jobs suitable to their 

skill sets and within any limitations imposed on them due to 

wounds, injuries, or illnesses sustained as a result of their military 

experience. For veterans with severe service-connected disabilities 

that impact their ability to work, other services are available to 

help them lead more independent lives. 

Mr. Chairman, DAV is a staunch proponent of the VR&E program, because it embodies DAV’s central purpose of empowering 

veterans to lead high quality lives with respect and dignity. We 

want to ensure this life-changing program is not just maintained, 

but also enhanced to truly give every eligible wounded, ill, and inVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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jured veteran the opportunity to maximize their utility, to lead 

high-quality lives with respect and dignity despite any limitations 

imposed upon them due to their service-connected disabilities. 

We have provided several recommendations in the form of resolutions from our members that would enable these veterans to 

achieve more meaningful and gainful economic prosperity. In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 048, as adopted at our most recent national convention, we support legislation that would eliminate the 12-year limitation provided to veterans to apply for VA vocational rehabilitation. 

We believe leaving a veteran’s period of entitlement open-ended 

would be a better policy. Legislation to effect this change is also 

supported by the independent budget, IB, veterans service organizations. 

In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 052, as adopted at our 

most recent national convention, we call on Congress to strengthen 

VA’s VR&E program to meet the demands of service-disabled veterans by providing increased staffing and funding, placement follow-up with employers for at least 6 months, childcare vouchers, 

and removing the cap placed on the independent living program. 

This legislation is also supported by the IB VSOs. 

And lastly, in accordance with DAV Resolution No. 227, as adopted at our most recent national convention, DAV calls on Congress 

to create a new Veterans Economic Opportunity Administration 

and also calls for the transfer of DOL vets to the VA as a key element of this new administration. 

We were pleased with the introduction of H.R. 2275, the Jobs for 

Veterans Act of 2015 in this Congress, and that H.R. 2275 was forwarded to the full committee by this subcommittee on June 25, 

2015. DAV strongly supports this legislation. 

Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Takano, and members of the 

subcommittee, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to 

present the testimony today. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. VARELA APPEARS IN THE AP- PENDIX ] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Varela. 

Ms. Ansley, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF HEATHER ANSLEY 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you, Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member 

Takano, and members the subcommittee. Paralyzed Veterans of 

America would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify 

today regarding the Department of Veterans Affairs Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program. 

In July, our Nation will celebrate the 25th anniversary of the 

Americans with Disabilities Act, which provides equality of opportunity and access for Americans with disabilities. Despite all of our 

advances, however, veterans and all people with disabilities remain 

underrepresented in our Nation’s workforce. Veterans with catastrophic disabilities, which comprises PVA’s membership, continue 

to face barriers when seeking to return to the workforce. As a result, in 2007, PVA launched Operation PAVE, which stands for 

Paving Access for Veterans Employment. Operation PAVE is a vocational rehabilitation program that assists PVA’s members, those 


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who are service connected and those that are non-service connected, other veterans with disabilities, their families and also 

caregivers in obtaining and retaining employment. Today, Operation PAVE has seven regional offices around the Nation. 

Operation PAVE provides one-on-one career counseling and assistance. All services, from our resume assistance, interview preparation, vocational counseling, and employer networking are provided at no cost to participants. Our program is staffed by experienced graduate-level certified vocational counselors and employment analysts. Although PAVE counselors are working with some 

of the most difficult to place clients, they are successful in returning them to the workforce. 

Operation PAVE seeks to keep its counselor load at a maximum 

of 125 veterans per counselor or less. The ratio of 1 to 125 is recognized as a full workload in the field of vocational rehabilitation 

counseling. When any vocational rehabilitation counselor is required to work with more than 125 clients, the employment counseling process is delayed. 

PAVE counselors recently reported that veterans have expressed 

frustration with how difficult it can be to connect with their VR&E 

counselors, as calls and emails sometimes go unanswered. The 

Independent Budget coauthored by AmVets, Disabled American 

Veterans, PVA, and the Veterans of Foreign Wars has continually 

highlighted the shortage of VR&E counselors. The IB projects that 

approximately 165,000 veterans will participate in the VR&E program in fiscal year 2016. To achieve a maximum ration of 1 to 125, 

VR&E would need an additional 382 full-time equivalent employees. This increase in staff would provide 277 new VR&E counselors 

and 105 new employees providing support services. These additions 

would require an increase in appropriations of $41.8 million. 

Providing VA with additional resources to decrease the counselor-to-veteran ratio is a step in the right direction. VA must also, 

however, reduce bureaucratic hurdles that delay veterans in moving through the VR&E process. For example, Operation PAVE 

counselors have noted that they are able to sometimes more quickly begin providing resume assistance, interview preparation, and 

vocational counseling because there are fewer procedural hurdles to 

clear for eligibility. And we urge the VA to continue to build efficiencies into the system that would eliminate any wait times and 

assist counselors in managing their time and caseloads as efficiently as possible. 

If current resource levels are maintained, one way to reduce the 

load for counselors and employment specialists is to continue to increase partnerships with organizations such as ours that provide 

specialty placement services. This is particularly important in the 

case of veterans who have unique needs related to their disabilities 

and life circumstances. 

PVA’s Operation PAVE counselors have indicated that they have 

developed relationships with VR&E counselors. One PAVE counselor reported that she receives referrals of veterans with significant disabilities who need specific one-on-one help in returning to 

work. Without these referrals, she feared that it would be difficult 

for her overloaded VR&E counterparts to dedicate the time and reVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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sources that are necessary to help someone with these types of disabilities return to work. 

Without these types of partnerships, severely disabled veterans 

would likely receive minimal consideration or be designated as unemployable. Severely disabled veterans require the commitment 

and special attention that a VA counselor is trained to provide, but 

cannot afford to present with the caseloads. By referring these veterans to PVA’s counselor, the veteran receives the specialized attention necessary, which more frequently leads to placement and 

suitable employment. 

In some cases, there are fewer connections between our offices 

and VA’s VR&E program, but we are pleased that the VR&E director has committed to us that he is interested in increasing collaboration. 

Congressional funding for VA’s VR&E program must keep pace 

with veterans’ need for services. 

PVA thanks you for the opportunity to testify today and we 

would be pleased to answer any questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MS. ANSLEY APPEARS IN THE AP- PENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, thank you, Ms. Ansley. 

And, finally, Mr. Meglathery, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF ROSS A. MEGLATHERY 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member 

Takano, and other distinguished members of the subcommittee, 

thank you for giving VetsFirst the opportunity to testify regarding 

the effectiveness of VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program. 

VetsFirst has represented our disabled veterans, their families, 

and their caretakers since 1946. We advocate for the program services and disability rights that help all generations of veterans with 

disabilities remain independent and fulfill their desire to reintegrate into society. Today, as part of the United Spinal Association, we are not only a VA-recognized national veterans service organization, but we are a leader in advocacy for all people with disabilities. 

The opportunity to participate in the workforce is critical, not 

only financially, but also because returning to work is a way to adjust to the normality of life in a veteran’s post-military years. Without the opportunity to work, many veterans with disabilities may 

become disconnected from the very society for which they sacrificed 

their time and their health. 

VetsFirst is concerned that the VR&E program still lacks the resources needed to best assist all disabled veterans in returning to 

employment. Additionally, we are concerned about VR&E’s difficulty in helping veterans overcome certain disabilities that contribute to their inability to succeed in a vocational rehabilitation 

program. Veterans who are living with mental health conditions 

have poorer VR&E outcomes than those with other disabilities. 

Veterans with more serious disabilities may also routinely require 

a higher level of employment support both pre- and post-placement 

than is typically provided by VR&E. 


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VetsFirst would like to take this opportunity to highlight two 

issues of concern. Under the current requirements, to be eligible for 

benefits, it must be 12 years or fewer since the vet’s date of separation from active military service or when VA notified them of their 

qualified service-connected disability, whichever date is later. 

Congress should do away with the 12-year requirement. The injury, either physical or mental, will be with the veteran for their 

lifetime. While a mental or emotional injury may not immediately 

affect the vet, it may acutely manifest itself in the individual at 

any time in the future. 

On a personal note, being a combat-wounded veteran, it is my experience that it is often difficult to come to terms with one’s emotions after the trauma of war. While prior to fighting in Iraq, I had 

a quick temper, I think it likely my lack of patience and temper 

were exacerbated by the stresses of war. It took me a long time and 

a lot of reflection to come to that conclusion. That is why I think 

it necessary to reevaluate the section of vocational rehabilitation 

that limits the time period to 12 years of eligibility. 

I am only one veteran, and I have anecdotal experience that 

leads me to believe that I am not alone in having had to mature 

a little and begin to reflect before I was able to come to terms with 

the effect of war. I believe the long-term effects of PTS are strong 

validation of why 12-year eligibility must be extended. 

There have been great efforts by VA and DoD to remove the stigma for servicemembers asking for help. However, it is only recently 

that that stigma has started to be chipped away at. For someone 

that had shown signs of PTS early in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is already too late for them to use VR&E under the 12-year 

eligibility rule. While a servicemember asking for help now may arguably not feel stigmatized, I would likely say that they would 

have as recently as a decade or even 5 years ago. 

I would also like to discuss the caseload and the staffing. While 

there has been a reduction in the caseload—well, VetsFirst believes 

the caseloads in the current state are still too high and VA resources are not sufficient to provide timely results. Not all injuries 

are created equally, and those afflicted with spinal cord injuries or 

traumatic brain injury are likely to require more individual time 

and attention. 

We believe that in order to more effectively manage VR&E, there 

are several options that should be exercised. Congress must appropriate the proper funding level to support VR&E and must also 

support efforts to hire sufficient staff. However, the answer to reducing the counselor-to-veteran ratio is not strictly a matter of increasing the budget and staff levels. 

The goal of VR&E is employment. Therefore, it is important that 

the VR&E program exercise a holistic approach to getting veterans 

back to work. For veterans who require more support in services, 

VA should consider partnering with a variety of non-profit organizations that provide intensive services needed to assist veterans 

living with significant disabilities, including mental health conditions, and returning to and remaining in the workforce. Additionally, VR&E needs to enhance its relationship with State and local 

government and industry writ large. Proper funding and reduction 

of caseload and building partnerships with other public and private 


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sector entities is crucial for the success of both VR&E and the veteran. 

VA must also track veterans’ employment in the long-term. 

VetsFirst believes that a veteran would greatly benefit if their employment were monitored for at least a year. By establishing a 

longer-term relationship with a counselor periodically following up, 

the VA will be able to track the effectiveness of the program and 

hold employers accountable to their commitment to support VR&E. 

VetsFirst would like to express its thanks for the opportunity to 

testify concerning its views on VA’s VR&E program. We appreciate 

your leadership on behalf of our Nation’s veterans who are living 

with disabilities. I will be happy to answer any questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. MEGLATHERY APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I want to thank each of you on the panel today 

for your testimonies. I will now yield myself 5 minutes for questions. 

And really I want to discuss something that both Mr. Varela and 

Mr. Meglathery brought up very explicitly, which was the 12-year 

limit on access to VR&E services. And as you probably know, last 

session the House voted to eliminate that and to extend it, but it 

wasn’t taken up further. But my question today is, are you having 

a difficult time for those seeking waivers, because there are several 

ways to get a waiver for that? And I am wondering if you are keeping any type of statistics on those that are denied a waiver or what 

the process is like for you as you are helping those that seek a 

waiver. Mr. Varela. 

Mr. VARELA. Thank you, Dr. Wenstrup. DAV is not keeping track 

on waiver outcomes, although I am sure that is information that 

we could obtain. It shouldn’t be too difficult. But what I would say 

is you have to go through another administrative procedure to get 

that determination, and we really just—if a veteran is coming to 

VR&E, they are not coming to VR&E because they have nothing 

better to do; they are coming there because they need help. So if 

we can eliminate one other barrier, get them right into the pipeline 

to VR&E services, that is a win-win for everybody. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. And I would agree with you, going through more 

paperwork is not fun for anybody, but I was just curious. Do you 

have any comment on that, Mr. Meglathery. 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. We could also look that information up for 

you, but we are not tracking that. But I would like to agree with 

Mr. Varela on the point if they are seeking help with VR&E, then 

it means that they really do need that help, because I think for 

many veterans, they are not even aware necessarily of those benefits. They know GI Bill benefits and they know healthcare benefits 

in general. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. And I think it would be helpful for all of us, you 

know, the VA side and your side of the issue, is if you are seeking 

a waiver, how long is that actually taking, because, as you know, 

time is often of the essence in these situations. 

You know, each of you discussed the need for VR&E counselors 

to track a veteran’s employment and success beyond 60 days, and 

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I really want to know what your 

long-term outcomes are and what kind of success you are having 


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or not. I would love to hear from each you to expand on this and 

provide any recommendations that you may have as far as time period that we may want to put in place and how we can go about 

tracking the veterans better, because you know it is often difficult 

to continue to track someone. So any input you have on that, and 

we will go down the line. 

Mr. VARELA. Right now we recommend in the Independent Budget, I believe it is 6 months after they have completed their program 

to determine whether or not they have maintained their employment. Anything beyond that would be great. What we have to remember, though, is that we are putting another task on the plate 

of a VR&E counselor. So how do we make that efficient and smooth 

so there is no time loss with the VR&E counselors so they can continue to do what they need to do and help other veterans. And 

probably the best way that you are going to be able to do that is 

going to be through IT enhancements, and so whatever IT enhancements they make going forward, perhaps there is a way to put a 

component in there in the system that tracks or reminds a VR&E 

counselor to follow up with that veteran. 

I mean, it wouldn’t take much to just call a veteran, you know, 

every 30, 60, 90 days within that 6-month period, or an email or 

some time type of correspondence, just want to find out how you 

are doing with your work, or maybe there is an employer input 

that we can work into some system as well. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. Ms. Ansley. 

Ms. ANSLEY. PVA supports having at least a year follow-up. And 

I think Mr. Varela’s comments about IT are a way that we can extend services to people and find out how they are doing in their 

employment beyond necessarily having counselors that are already 

stretched thin making that outreach, although certainly we would 

like that, but feel that IT could be a way to address that. 

We also believe that, particularly with veterans who have evolving disabilities, disability is not static, so you may have changes 

that arise that you need different types of accommodations that 

you weren’t thinking of at the beginning, you know, new things 

that arise that you don’t want to see a person remove themselves 

from the workforce, which is what may happen, when actually having somebody intervene and work with you and your employer may 

keep you in the workforce, which is what everybody wants. 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. I would just like to add that the Wounded 

Warrior regimen that the Marine Corps has does a very good job 

of following up on a veteran just to say—just to find out how they 

are doing, you know, after their injury. And they call me pretty frequently, maybe once a year, but it might be more frequently than 

that, but I think it is—the IT solutions in order to keep track of 

that, useful definitely, but the fact that there is somebody calling 

you to talk to you to find out what is going on, I think, is pretty 

meaningful. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be the counselor if 

you are just trying to track. Then depending on what the outcome 

of that phone call is, then you can push it onto a counselor or not. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

I now yield 5 minutes to the ranking member, who is recognized. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I, again, thank you 

for calling this hearing. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Mr. MEGLATHERY. Pretend its MC. 

Mr. TAKANO. Meglathery. You mentioned about the problem of 

the awareness of benefits. This came up in one of my pre-meetings 

with the VA folks. One of the things I am troubled by is the Federal Government’s ability to—not just in the VA—to make citizens 

aware of what they are eligible for. 

Do we have an idea of how we can do a better job of connecting 

with veterans in need of VR&E services? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. It was I who said that, yes. Well, I got off active duty in 2007, so I certainly knew about the GI Bill benefits 

and the health benefits, and I remember in my TAPs classes they 

brought some VA representatives, but I don’t believe that they even 

mentioned VR&E. And I might be wrong, but it certainly didn’t 

strike me as something that I was aware of. I didn’t find out about 

it until a couple years ago. 

So it might be—part of why VR&E is not known so well maybe 

is the fact that GI Bill has been so successful, but I think also, although it is very much focused on the employment aspect of it, 

there is the educational component to it, and so I think there is 

probably a way that you can tie those in together as a package for 

the veteran so that they are aware of all those issues, so it is not 

just education, it is employment. 

Mr. TAKANO. So you are saying that servicemembers are more 

versed in the GI Bill and don’t know about the VR&E services? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. That is correct. And I think they are probably—there are cases too where they might be able to use VR&E 

benefits where they would instead use the GI Bill because they are 

aware of the GI Bill benefits, but they are not aware of VR&E. 

Mr. TAKANO. So you are saying that though TAP is VR&E benefits are not getting through to service members. I understand that 

to qualify you have to have a certain level of disability, and I’m 

asking whether vets are they aware at that point in the TAP process of the rating requirement? Does that come later? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. I think they have done a much better job in 

recent years of trying to tell the veteran that they need to—before 

they get off active duty, that they really need to go to the VA to 

get their rating prior to—like I said, prior to getting off active duty. 

So the information I just gave is a little bit dated, so I can get 

you information for the record in terms of how that is working out 

now with the notification of VR&E. I am still in the Reserves, so 

I still am tapped into the Marine Corps. 

Mr. TAKANO. Let me hear from some of the other panelists on 

this access issue and particularly how it relates to the veterans getting information about VR&E services. 

Mr. VARELA. So currently, you go through TAP, and its an information dump. I mean, there are so many things flying at 

servicemembers at that time, home loan eligibility, you have DOL 

that is providing information, you have VA that is providing information. They are going—they are trying to file their—some are filing their claims at that time, so it is a lot. 

Mr. TAKANO. And if you are a vet, particularly with PTS can all 

of this information be a problem? 

Mr. VARELA. Correct, in some cases. So hopefully, and what we 

believe is going to happen with TAP is they are going to create an 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
12 

option so that you can go back and relearn what you learned when 

you got out, kind of a review. 

The other thing that I would mention is if you are being medically separated from the military with a 10 percent disability or 20 

percent disability or greater, the VR&E component, the voc rehab 

component is open, so you will actually get to sit down and talk to 

a VR&E counselor about your options. The issue is that if you are 

being medically separated, not all servicemembers that are going 

out are being separated because of a medical disability, so they file 

their claims somewhere outside of that process and they have to 

learn about VR&E. 

So we have to make sure that we continue to pump out information to them that VR&E services are available. 

Mr. TAKANO. So is it the case that a TAP orientation is not done 

for the medical separations? 

Mr. VARELA. I am sorry. Is not done? 

Mr. TAKANO. So if you are being medically separated as opposed 

to going through the regular separation process, is there a TAP 

process for those being medically separated? 

Mr. VARELA. It is not a—there is a separate kind of behind the 

scenes that takes place when you are being medically separated. 

You are going to get a different kind of—you are going to get different kind of attention, you are going to get pushed in a different 

direction, you are going to have VR&E specialized services, but— 

so the answer to your question is, yes, it will be specialized for 

those people that being—— 

Mr. TAKANO. Specialized how? 

Mr. VARELA. Yes. 

Mr. TAKANO. A variation of it. 

Mr. VARELA. It is augmented from what they would generally go 

through. 

Mr. TAKANO. Okay. All right. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Ms. Radewagen, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Chairman Wenstrup. I would like 

to thank both you and Ranking Member Takano for holding this 

hearing today, and I would like to welcome the panel. 

My question is for Ms. Ansley and Mr. Varela. In your written 

statement, you mentioned that veterans rehabilitation and employment counselors’ caseloads are too high and that additional staffing 

resources are needed to ensure eligible veterans aren’t delayed in 

gaining services. Short of increased staff, what is something that 

VA can do right now to reduce the counselor-to-participant ratio, 

particularly in rural and outlying regions such as the United States 

territories in the South Pacific? 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you for the question. I certainly think that 

there is a range of opportunities beyond additional counselors, although we do feel additional counselors are a key aspect. 

I would have to highlight the need to look at public and private 

partnerships that may be available in a particular area where 

there could be an extension of the services that VR&E provides by 

looking to others that can help to assist to make sure that people 

don’t fall through the cracks. That is, our biggest concern is that 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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veterans would not feel that the benefits are available to them, 

things are not timely. And so what tends to happen is people 

deselect themselves and say, you know, I think I will just not go 

through the process, you know, I will just go a different route. And 

that is typically not very successful for many people. And I think 

that that is what we have seen in States that have vocational rehabilitation programs. 

Of course, you know, there are lots of programs that are out 

there for different types of communities, and VR&E is doing more 

to partner with those Federal agencies, State agencies, other opportunities. So I think we have to look at how can we work together 

to meet those needs. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Mr. Varela. 

Mr. VARELA. Yes, ma’am. Unfortunately, there is no way to get 

around presently the manpower issue. The issue of manpower has 

been that over the last few years, the rate of counselors has not 

kept pace with the rate of applicants, has not kept pace with the 

rate of program participants. So any short-term lift that we can get 

aside from bodies, aside from people would have to probably come 

through IT, you know, what can be streamlined through those processes to make maybe the decision process a little easier, the management of caseloads a little bit easier, getting away from a paper 

environment, moving more to electronic environment, but as was 

mentioned in the opening statements, you know, we continue to see 

a drawdown in the military, we continue to have the VA processing 

more and more and more claims. We are going to need the people 

to keep up with the demand. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. McNerney, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

It sounds like the whole purpose really is to get veterans into 

work and to get them into businesses. Does the VR&E program 

give help or assistance to service-connected disabled veterans in 

starting their own businesses? Whoever would care to answer. 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you for the question. There certainly are opportunities that VR&E is working with, and I know recently as 

part of the administration’s Curb Cuts to Middle Class Initiative, 

which was targeted at all people with disabilities, VR&E made 

some connections with Small Business Administration and other 

groups they haven’t been able to make some good connections with 

in the past. So I think that there is an interest. I don’t think it is 

probably where it needs to be to look at entrepreneurial opportunities, particularly for veterans with more significant disabilities, for 

whom travel may be an issue and other accessibility. I think that 

is certainly an area that we do need to continue to augment. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Okay. Well, if you have any suggestions on how 

to move forward on that, we would love to hear that, and we can 

see if we can get that into action. 

What is the connection, or the overlap between the VR&E programs and the GI Bill? Whoever would care to answer that. Mr. 

Varela, would you care to answer that? 

Mr. VARELA. Okay. So what we are talking about now is the 

overlap between post-9/11 GI Bill—— 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Mr. MCNERNEY. Right. 

Mr. VARELA [continuing]. And VR&E. And as was mentioned earlier, when servicemembers are getting out, what is emphasized a 

lot is the post-9/11 GI Bill, which is less cumbersome to utilize and 

can provide much of the same benefits that are offered through 

VR&E. So there is some differences. In VR&E, they will pay for 

your books, they will pay for tuition, they pay for a lot of things 

in particular. On the other side, on the post-9/11 GI Bill, there is 

a larger monetary value that you receive from that benefit depending on where you live, based on your BAH. So when you look at 

the two programs and you say, well, which one do I want to go into, 

a lot of times what a post-9/11 veteran may say to themselves is, 

which one is going to be easier for me to enter? And as a post-9/ 

11 veteran, you get to say, I want to use this benefit for these programs, and as long as they are recognized by the VA, you pretty 

much get to go into that program. 

With VR&E, you have to go through a process, which a counselor 

has to determine whether or not you can enter that program and 

utilize those services. So they mirror in some regards, but in others 

they don’t. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. So can you participate in both the GI Bill and 

the VR&E programs? 

Mr. VARELA. You cannot use both simultaneously. You are either 

in one or the other. What winds up happening is if you are eligible 

for post-9/11 GI Bill benefits and you are in VR&E, there is an augmentation of your stipend because of what you would have received 

under post-9/11, but you cannot use both educational benefits at 

the same time. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Thank you. 

Mr. Meglathery, you mentioned the need for a holistic approach 

with partners. Could you elaborate on that a little bit, please? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. Well, I was going to say, I think Ms. Ansley 

actually had kind of pointed that out well when we were talking 

about manpower shortages, where if you are in an isolated area, 

maybe, you know, getting other businesses interested in employing 

veterans, et cetera, so having the local community working with 

the VA in the area, especially where there is fewer—where there 

is a lack of presence. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Are there guidelines or incentives that this committee could supply to the business community? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. There are guidelines and there are benefits, 

and I could get back to you on that. 

Do you have any more detail? 

Ms. ANSLEY. I think continuing to encourage the partnerships 

that would occur between VA and community resources by looking 

at barriers that may exist to participation. I know with PVA’s program, it is—you know, we—our work is fund-raised through other 

means, and we just work with VA to serve veterans, so we are not 

interested in any type of monetary connection. For others, that may 

be a concern. 

So I think it is looking at what would those community organizations need to serve and be partners, because they want to be, but 

in many cases, they are also stretched too. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Mr. MCNERNEY. You mentioned, Ms. Ansley, that you could use 

another 318, I think, new counselors. I forget the exact number, 

but—— 

Ms. ANSLEY. 382, I believe. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Oh, 382. 

Ms. ANSLEY. 382, yes. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Okay. I got the 8 right, but I was in the wrong 

tens. 

Ms. ANSLEY. We were all close. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. So how does that work? I mean, you would get 

those funded through the VA, the VA would fund Paralyzed Veterans of America to hire those? 

Ms. ANSLEY. No. Those would be counselors, VR&E counselors. 

That is completely separate from our program. That is PVA advocating for VR&E’s program to get additional resources. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. All right. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I now yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Ms. RICE. you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Varela, maybe I missed this. What is the exact ratio of counselor to veteran? 

Mr. VARELA. That depends on what regional office you are looking at. 

Ms. RICE. Is there an overall number, or do you have to go 

that—— 

Mr. VARELA. I believe if you took all of them together and you 

looked at the ratio, it comes out to about 137 veterans for every one 

counselor. Yeah. 

Ms. RICE. Okay. So clearly, that is the reason for why you need 

more counselors, because you can’t possibly—no matter how good 

your IT follow-up system is, you can’t have one human being able 

to do the necessary follow-up. Do you agree? 

Mr. VARELA. I agree. And then what makes it even more complicated, when you are looking at a group of disabled veterans, let’s 

say it is even 125, we get it down to that number, you know, how 

many of them are going to have more severe disabilities than their 

other disabled veteran counterparts and require more hands on, 

more time, and more effort to make sure that they are being shepherded through the program properly. So—— 

Ms. RICE. Is it a resource issue for the lack of counselors or a 

training issue? What is it? 

Mr. VARELA. It is multifaceted. It is not—so if we bump up 

VR&E counselors, let’s say that Congress somehow managed to get 

them to 125 or better, okay, does the VA have the space in its facilities to accommodate an increase in VR&E counselors? So what 

other options do you have there. Because along with bumping up 

your VR&E counselors, you also need the support personnel to help 

them. 

Ms. RICE. The IT enhancements that you were talking about for 

follow-up purposes, and I know Mr. Takano was asking about using 

IT, any aspect of the IT enhancement that could address informing 

veterans of this service, VR&E service, what kind of monetary inVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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vestment in the IT system would that require? Do you have a dollar figure for that? 

Mr. VARELA. I believe we may have included that in our Independent Budget recommendation, so I will have to take that—— 

Ms. RICE. Okay. I will—— 

Mr. VARELA [continuing]. Question for the record, and I will be 

sure to get back to you. 

Ms. RICE. Okay. So I am just going to stay with you, Mr. Varela. 

The 20-year study that Congress mandated found that 90 percent 

of participants are moderately to highly satisfied. How do you get 

that statistic? I mean, is there, like, a follow-up questionnaire 

or—— 

Mr. VARELA. That is a good question, because we had actually 

asked to see what that questionnaire looked like, and we were not 

provided with that. 

Ms. RICE. Okay. Well, maybe we can find that out, because I 

would like to know how they came to that number of 90 percent 

of participants. It seems awfully high. 

Mr. VARELA. Yes. 

Ms. RICE. I just wonder what the universe of people are. 

Mr. VARELA. And the questions, obviously, right? 

Ms. RICE. Yeah. Certainly, and the questions. Right. The other 

thing that they found was that women make up a larger percentage of VR&E program participants, 17 to 20 percent than the overall veteran population, which is 9 percent. Are we communicating 

these services of VR&E better to women vets than we are to men 

vets? I mean, have you seen an increase more in women accessing 

this service than men? I mean, help me out there. 

Mr. VARELA. I couldn’t speculate other than they probably pay 

better attention than me. So that is probably—— 

Ms. RICE. Well, we know that. Women are far more oriented that 

way. 

So, Ms. Ansley, just my last question. And this goes to what Mr. 

McNerney was getting to, and I understand trying to involve on a 

local level small businesses in more rural areas, but is there a gold 

standard, or a template, for public-private partnership in this 

VR&E program, meaning are we reaching out to, you know, big 

businesses, you know, across the country and in individual areas 

to partner with them? I mean, we just had the Brave Act passed 

out of here that actually would allow the Secretary of the VA to 

give preference to businesses that are seeking Federal contracts 

that show that they have a record of hiring veterans. I mean, I 

think we all agree that they are some of the most highly-trained 

Americans that we have. 

So is there at present a public-private partnership that exists in 

that limited area with the VR&E program to help funnel people accessing the VR&E program into private businesses who have 

shown an interest in hiring veterans? 

Ms. ANSLEY. I think that is part of the multifaceted interplay between not only VR&E, but then also the Department of Labor’s 

Vets Program, which, you know, provides assistance for disabled 

veterans seeking benefits. So I think it is more—in some cases, it 

is not necessarily VR&E reaching out directly, but are there Federal partners who work with those companies working with VR&E 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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to provide those pipelines. For instance, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance at the Department of Labor works with Federal 

contractors. There are Federal mandates as far as hiring people 

with disabilities, hiring veterans with disabilities. These companies 

want to hire veterans and want to hire people with disabilities. 

And it is about trying to make those connections, because what we 

hear from the contracting community is, you know, we want to hire 

people, but we don’t know where to go, we don’t know where to 

look to find the people that meet our requirements. 

So PVA is working in collaboration with other groups to work 

with Industry Liaison Group, which is part of Department of 

Labor, it is the Federal contractor group that looks at how they can 

meet their requirements. 

So sometimes it is making those connections for people that may 

exist in other government silos, if you will—— 

Ms. RICE. Right. 

Ms. ANSLEY [continuing]. And helping to say, hey, we have got 

people over here that we are training. We know that you need employees who have these qualifications to help you meet, you know, 

these specific requirements. How can we better work together? 

Ms. RICE. Well, whatever—we can speak off-line in terms of helping to figure that out, because to me that—we have the willingness 

to hire, and if it is just a simple lack of communication or coordination, we should be able to put that together, it seems to me. Right? 

Ms. ANSLEY. That would certainly be a goal that we would want 

to accomplish. 

Ms. RICE. Great. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. Costello, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Greetings. I had the opportunity to review the testimony in advance, and I would like to ask a question for each of you to address. 

I think one of the main concerns, at least one of mine, I think 

maybe probably for most others, is how to improve the collaboration between VR&E, VHA, and other parts of the VBA to reduce 

overlap and improve performance? 

Can you share with me where you see the greatest opportunities 

are for increased collaboration, and how would you improve collaboration to enhance services provided by VR&E? 

Mr. VARELA. Thank you for the question, Congressman. Where is 

the opportunity for that collaboration? Where can it would be enhanced with all three partners? Right here. We need to get everybody to the table and talk about what we can be doing to help one 

another, what are some of the barriers that we are seeing out 

there, how can we eliminate them. I don’t know that it would need 

to be so formal as a hearing, but certainly a roundtable with these 

representatives to talk about, what are the challenges? What do we 

need to do? If legislation is needed, then that is when we have this 

conversation. If is something that does not require legislation, then 

we take care of that behind the scenes. 

Ms. ANSLEY. It really gets to the idea of being veteran-centric 

and looking at how do we meet those needs. Veterans don’t look at, 

you know, well, that is VBA and that is VHA and all these difVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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ferent components. So if we begin to look more holistically at a veteran approaching the VA, you know, I always think of healthcare 

and benefits are your bedrock, they are your foundation, those are 

what allow you to then succeed in employment. You need housing 

so you have a place to live. You need transportation options so that 

you can get to your home and your job. I think, really, beginning 

to look at more of that focus on the veteran and what the veteran 

needs as opposed to the individual programmatic focus, which 

doesn’t always see how the different programs interplay, and then 

what the veteran sees when he or she is trying to work with those 

different programs. 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. And I think that is a great point about how 

the veteran sees just—they see VA, they don’t see VHA, they don’t 

see VBA, and so I think there is maybe, when they are—certainly 

when they are getting off active duty, at least, points of contact, a 

specific point of contact so they can go to that person individually 

and that they can provide them the information that they need on 

all sides of that, because they don’t see VBA, VHA. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Thank you. 

Mr. Varela, in previous testimony, you mentioned that VR&E’s 

focus is primarily aligned with education and training as opposed 

to immediate employment. And whether that is precisely what you 

said or what you alluded to, that is not—I am not going at you 

with that, but with that as context, how do you think that the VA 

can better incentivize the employment track? Mindful that veterans, like everyone else, has financial commitments and limited 

resources, and we are the economic opportunity subcommittee, can 

you share with me how we may be able to better focus on an employment track within the context of what we are talking about? 

Mr. VARELA. Sure. Thank you, Congressman. And thank you for 

softening that approach. I do appreciate it. 

Mr. COSTELLO. I try and be soft. 

Mr. VARELA. The one thing we have to remember is that all 

tracks in the VR&E are employment tracks. It mean, the goal of 

VR&E, aside from independent living, and yes, the goal of independent living is to hopefully get somebody into employment as 

well, they are all employment-driven. So are we looking at rapid 

employment, are we looking at reentry into employment, long-term 

to employment? And it really comes down to, number one, what 

VR&E is going to determine that this individual is capable of 

doing? Okay? I come to VR&E and I say, I want to be a helicopter 

pilot. They may turn around to me and say, that is really not something that we are going to put you in this program to do, but based 

on your background, you know, we may put you in a program to 

be a mechanic or we may put you in a program to be, you know, 

a nurse, depending on what I am still qualified to do and what I 

am capable of doing. 

The other component of that is, is that VR&E counselor going to 

be able to spend the time that they need to spend with that veteran to ensure that they are going to complete the program? 

You know, one of the other issues that we have in VR&E is there 

is a lot of turnover in VR&E. What winds up happening is I may 

have developed a relationship with a VR&E counselor, I feel very 

comfortable with this counselor, and for some reason, that counVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

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selor is no longer there, so I have to restart over again with somebody else and hope that this person keeps me along the same track, 

shows the same interest. But every time you switch around, whether it is a doctor, whether it is a mechanic, or whether it is somebody in VR&E, you lose a little bit of that confidence. So if we can 

keep those VR&E counselors in VR&E, keep them happy, keep 

them working with those individuals that they have been working 

with, I think that is going to help ensure a successful outcome. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Thank you. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. We will do a second round of questions who has 

interest here to do that. I appreciate you sticking around for that. 

The longitudinal study, by the way, is available, and we can get 

you access to that, the questions, that were asked. So I am not sure 

where you got road-blocked, Mr. Varela, but we will get you that 

access. 

And I also appreciate the notion of a roundtable to talk about collaboration, and would like to try and get that on our schedule some 

time in the fall. The roundtables we have had in the past have 

been, I think, very productive and a good way to go about discussing some of these issues rather than a hearing in some cases. 

So just wanted to let you know we are going to try and proceed in 

those directions. 

I do have a question for Ms. Ansley to touch on a little bit about 

the relationship that you have as a non-profit working with voc 

rehab, and what are some of the opportunities that exist for other 

non-profits to try and help veterans and possibly ease some of the 

caseloads that we have. 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you for the question, Chairman. The relationship that our Operation PAVE has been able to work out with 

VA has been beneficial, not only in looking at extending services 

to people, the veterans that would be eligible for both programs, 

but also people who contact VA that are not eligible for the VR&E 

program. 

So, I think that that is one of the important aspects also of connecting with community partners, is that veterans who are nonservice connected, family members, caregivers, you know, they are 

not eligible. And so we understand that in many cases, there have 

been connections to our program so that those individuals can be 

served. 

I think that for many non-profits that we work with, we work 

with a lot of other non-profits in the disability community who provide employment services to a wide range of people, including veterans, and a lot of times it becomes issues of not knowing who to 

connect with in the VA. If you connect one place, that doesn’t mean 

you are going to be successful in connecting in other locations 

around the country. So I think having—you know, there has been 

a focus on how to connect with those local partners, but I think 

continuing to break down the barriers so that groups understand, 

who do I contact, how do I make the connection, and how do I show 

that I already serve this population in some respects, or maybe I 

serve people that you can’t serve, and how can we work together 

to meet the broader veteran community. I think, again, those local 

community roundtables of even looking at what is happening in a 

particular community, a particular State, what are the resources, 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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because in some places there may be a non-profit that doesn’t exist 

in another part of the country, and so being able to find out what 

is on the ground in your area, and then finding out, VA asking, are 

there questions, you know, what are barriers that we are presenting that prevent you from being able to serve our population 

of veterans, how can we better work with you to refer, you know, 

all of those different questions, but it really does begin on a very 

local level, but that is fostered by a messaging coming from the top 

that this is important. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. You are a large organization nationwide. So 

that—it is to your advantage, I guess, to be able to plug in. So 

what you are suggesting is it is a little bit more difficult sometimes 

to make sure the people know about these outside services. Does 

the VA know that these outside services exist? 

Ms. ANSLEY. Right. Right. Do you know what services are available in your community and who it is that they serve so that when 

you are contacted by someone—like I said, if it is somebody you 

can’t serve, somebody who you know, okay, we have—there is a 

great nonprofit in this area; they have a particular interest; we can 

partner with them. How could we learn from each other? How can 

we share best practices? 

I think that that is really what you benefit from. There are certainly organizations like ours that are across the country, but then 

there are others that are more local, more regional, that it would 

be great for VA to have those connections, and for veterans, you 

know, to be able to connect with long term and, like I said, their 

families, as well. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, how did you establish your referral pattern? 

Ms. ANSLEY. It has really been local counselors working with 

their local VR&E offices and making those individual relationships. 

In some cases, we know that they have worked really well with the 

VR&E office. I know we have one place where the OEF OIF office 

has been—at VA, has been a referral point. So we have talked with 

the VR&E staff, and they—at the national level, and they are interested in looking at how they can better make their local offices 

aware of this program, and not only our program, but other similar 

programs that are out there. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. So in your situation, you made the outreach? 

Ms. ANSLEY. Typically, that is my understanding. I mean, I am 

sure—again, individualized locations may have different connections. But there are different connecting points at different regions, 

just like you see one VA, you have seen one. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, thank you very much. 

Mr. Takano, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I have heard that the average level of disability rating for VR&E 

participants is around 60 percent. Does that sound right to you, 

more or less? I mean, it is not like there are people—that most people in the program are at 10 percent or 20 percent disability. People come to VR&E with significant disability ratings, service-related. Is that right? I mean, it is around 60 percent? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. Yeah. I believe I have seen that number, the 

60 percent. 


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Mr. TAKANO. Yes. So I just want to make sure the committee understands what we are dealing with here. 

And the other thing is that the turnover rate among the counselors, what do we know about that turnover rate? Do you have a 

stat on that? 

Mr. VARELA. That is information that we can obtain. I don’t have 

that—— 

Mr. TAKANO. You can obtain that? Okay. I would be interested 

to know, because, obviously, it is intuitive that the more stable the 

rate is, and the more that the servicemember or the veteran can 

stick with one counselor, I think the better outcome is going to be. 

If the counselor leaves, that is just another bump in the road, a 

challenge for that vet. 

I would love to see this roundtable happen, because I think this 

idea of the connections between the private sector employers who 

want to do this, who want to help, and to be able to get in the 

minds of those private sector employers where they can go, who 

they can register with to show availability. This matchmaking, 

doesn’t necessarily happen instantaneously. It may take us time to 

develop that veteran for employability, but to work with that employer that will take—wants to work with somebody who may have 

lost a limb or—that is a challenge I think we should be able to 

solve. 

I want to ask a question about—as a point of clarification. You 

say that the benefits under the 9/11 GI Bill and the VR&E benefits, they are not able to simultaneous use them, but they can be 

used sequentially, correct? You can be deemed entitled to VR&E 

benefits, use those benefits, but then potentially use your GI benefits afterwards; is that correct? 

Mr. VARELA. That is correct. Basically, what I was trying to say 

was you cannot be in Chapter 33 or Chapter 31 simultaneously, although you could be eligible for both. And the only exception to 

that is the augmentation of the stipend that takes place in VR&E 

if you are also eligible for Chapter 33 benefits. 

Mr. TAKANO. One of the things I have been concerned about with 

post-9/11 GI Bill benefits, is that I know that we have enormous 

numbers of people in the general population that cannot meaningfully, access, community college. I am not talking about veterans. 

Up to 70, 80 percent, of all incoming students lack the ability to 

place into college level English or math. 

Now, if you are using GI Bill benefits, you have to be enrolled 

full-time in order to get your housing stipend. And if you don’t get 

into a college level math or college level English course, you are not 

taking actual credit bearing classes and, therefore, you can’t meaningfully access your GI Bill benefits, and we don’t pay for the remedial education. And I am not someone who believes everyone 

should go to college, necessarily. 

You can go into training programs, I am wondering on the VR&E 

side, what happens to veterans that may not have the skill levels 

yet to place into college level math or English? I mean, they may 

have such a disability because they never attained the college level 

readability. Do we have a way to provide—does the current law 

allow us to provide developmental education for that vet under 

VR&E? 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Mr. VARELA. I would have to research that to be 100 percent certain. I would assume, knowing what I know about the VR&E program, that if you had an employment—because, basically, you are 

using your education to get to employment. That is the goal. 

Mr. TAKANO. Right. For many of the folks, they need to be able 

to be more in a more educated vocation than not. 

Mr. VARELA. Correct. I believe that VR&E would be able to help 

a veteran overcome those barriers, maybe offer some additional 

testing, some additional classes to get them to that level. But I 

want to confirm that before I respond in the affirmative. 

Mr. TAKANO. Okay. Thank you. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. McNerney, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Thank you. I have a couple of questions for Mr. 

Meglathery. You mentioned, and one of the other panelists mentioned, the one-year monitor of employment is insufficient. What is 

the current practice? I mean, not that they are insufficient, but 

they need a one-year monitoring program. What is the current 

practice? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. That would be 60 days, sir. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. 60 days. So they are watched and see if they are 

employed for 60 days, and if they lose the job within 60 days, they 

go back into the program; is that correct? 

Mr. VARELA. So what happens is they are going to monitor a veteran that completes the program for 60 days. Now, that doesn’t 

mean that services within VR&E are terminated. They can come 

back to VR&E and receive those same services. What we are talking about is the point in which VR&E can consider a case closed 

or where they can consider a case successfully rehabilitated. So 

they use that 60-day marker to say that after 60 days, this person 

has been successfully rehabilitated. And what we are saying is before you make that successful rehabilitation determination, you 

probably need a little bit longer period of a time before you can 

reach that conclusion. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. I mean, is that just a statistic, or do they use 

that 60-day failure to try and reenter the veteran into a program? 

Mr. VARELA. They are going to use—VR&E’s purpose for using 

that 60-day demarcation timeframe is to be able to report out that 

we have had a successful rehabilitation in that 60 days—is that 

timeframe when they can do that in the case. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. So it needs to be more than just the statistic 

anyway? 

Mr. VARELA. Correct. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Okay. The other thing is, you mentioned, Mr. 

Meglathery, that veterans with mental disabilities have more— 

have worse employment outcomes. Could you go into that a little 

bit for me? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. Well, I think, based on the fact that it is harder to maintain a job if you have some sort of—if you have posttraumatic stress, it might limit you from the ability to—I mean, 

those kind of injuries kind of run the gamut, whether you can leave 

your house, whether you can work regular hours, whether you can 

sleep at night to traumatic brain injury, where maybe certain cognitive functions you have had in the past, you no longer have, but 

maybe you can do manually. So it might take longer to train to 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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those as opposed to someone that maybe lost use of a limb, for instance, but they are able to do most anything else that they could 

have intellectually or even physically in some sense. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Is there additional service needed, or help needed, for folks with post-traumatic stress or other mental disabilities 

as a result of combat that would be useful in job training that isn’t 

available now? 

Mr. MEGLATHERY. Well, I think in one instance, it is a matter of 

time. So when we say that the ratio, 1 to 125, if everybody’s on an 

equal playing field, maybe that is the case, whereas it might take 

longer for somebody with some sort of issue, TBI, PTS, or something like that. It might take that individual longer. So it is based 

on the individual. 

Mr. MCNERNEY. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Ms. Rice, you are now recognized. 

Ms. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, Mr. Varela, I am going 

to ask you this question. There was some VR&E data, and the first 

thing that I want to make reference to is the volume of VR&E applications has increased over 30 percent from fiscal year 2011 to 

fiscal year 2014 with a nearly 10 percent growth in VR&E participants over each of the past 2 years. That is a pretty significant increase, right? 

Mr. VARELA. We would think so. We believe so. 

Ms. RICE. So the next thing is what causes me—I am curious 

about, it says even with this traumatic growth, VR&E provided entitled determinations to applicants with an average of 43 days, 

below the national target of 45 days. How can that be? That with 

an increase in applicants, there are actually being more efficient, 

and is it the counselors that you are talking about who make that 

initial determination? 

Mr. VARELA. The counselors—the counselors will make a determination on entitlement, whether a veteran is eligible or ineligible. 

How they are making more entitlement decisions, does that tell us 

that they are making more entitlement decisions to grant access 

into the program, or are they simply just making decisions; yes, 

you are in or no, you are not in? Does that number correlate with 

an increase in the number of participants. I would need to tease 

that information out. 

Ms. RICE. Well, I think we need to. Because I don’t see how you 

can have any increase at this rate of people seeking these services 

and the determinations are actually made below the targeted rate 

when we are talking about one of the biggest needs being an increase in counselors, who are the ones who are making these determinations. So that, I just thought, was a little curious. And I didn’t 

know if you would have the answer to that. 

So can I just continue on what Mr. McNerney was asking before. 

If someone—so right now, if you—if someone is placed and you 

monitor them for 60 days, and they stay in that employment, and 

you see that as a successful transition, say, 90 days or 120 days 

later, if that veteran loses their job at any time between 60 days 

and whenever, do you have a number—do you know how many 

people are in that category post 60 days separation from their employer who come back to reaccess the VR&E services, and are they 

allowed to at any time after that? 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Ms. ANSLEY. Certainly, veterans who—there would be an opportunity for them to come back to the program. I think the reason 

to keep engaged, though, and not get to that step is you don’t want 

people who have had—been unsuccessful in the workplace to then 

decide, okay, I tried, and now I am going to—I am going to just 

say that I am not going to be able to work. That, I think, is the 

biggest—is the bigger reason. 

Whether somebody can’t come back because, yes, there are opportunities where they can come back, but it is already a big step for 

somebody whose life has now changed with a significant disability 

to return to the workforce. Just like all of us, you know, 60 days 

is kind of not a very good time to be able to adjust. Throw in the 

fact that now you have never worked before as a person with a disability, you know, you have got accommodations, you have got 

other things you have got to figure out, it is just a barrier. That 

is the real issue, whether somebody can come back or not. The 

issue is sticking with them so that you can work through the 

bumps along the road that pop up. 

I know a lot of veterans that I have talked to, they are looking 

at what are my rights under the American with Disabilities Act, 

most of them were in the workforce. But they were thinking about, 

maybe I am just going to have to quit because I can’t get my employer to make this accessible, or I don’t know what to do. That is 

a step we never want to get to. And so I think that is really what 

we are saying. 

Ms. RICE. But there is no legal impediment or barrier to a veteran who loses their job post 60 days coming back and reaccessing 

your services—these services, VR&E services? 

Ms. ANSLEY. VR&E services. 

Ms. RICE. Okay. Thank you. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I think all Members of Congress can probably remember their first 60 days in Congress and relate to the challenges 

of that situation. 

But if there are no further questions of panel 1, I now excuse 

you, and I thank you all very much for being here, and I ask the 

second and final panel to come to the witness table. 

Our second panel, we have Mr. Jack Kammerer, the director of 

the Vocation Rehabilitation and Employment Service at VA. We 

also have Mr. Ralph Charlip, deputy assistant secretary for operations and management at DOL’s Veterans Employment and 

Training Service. Welcome to both of you. 

Mr. Kammerer, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your 

testimony. 

STATEMENT OF JACK KAMMERER 

Mr. KAMMERER. Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, 

subcommittee members, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss VA’s VR&E program and our efforts to 

transform. We are engaged in initiatives to extend outreach, gain 

a better understanding of our current and future veteran population, increase program efficiencies, enhance supporting technology and reframe performance metrics. The VR&E program assists servicemembers and veterans with service-connected disabilities and barriers to employment in preparing for, finding, and 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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maintaining suitable employment. For veterans with service-connected disabilities so severe that they cannot immediately consider 

employment, independent living services help to improve the ability to live as independently as possible. We employ nearly a thousand professional vocational rehabilitation counselors and deliver 

services through a network of almost 400 locations. 

Our service delivery supports veterans where they live and includes operations at 57 regional offices, 165 out-based offices, 71 installations for IDES, and 94 VetSuccess on Campus sites. As VBA 

continues to make progress, major progress on the backlog, more 

veterans with service-connected disabilities are potentially eligible 

for and in need of vocational rehabilitation services. The volume of 

VR&E applications has increased over 30 percent from 2011 to 

2014 with nearly 10 percent growth in participants in each of the 

past 2 years. 

In 2014, VR&E provided entitlement determinations to applicants in an average of 43 days, which was below the national target of 45 days. 

The total number of VR&E cases worked by VRCs, including applicants, exceeded 181,000 in 2014 and VR&E participants increased to nearly 124,000 in 2014. We successfully assisted over 

10,000 veterans in achieving their rehabilitation goals in 2014 with 

over 8,600 of those employment rehabilitations. 

Our colleagues at Department of Labor share our resolve towards 

these employment outcomes. With a team of 79 VSOC counselors, 

VR&E continues to partner with 94 schools to provide services to 

approximately 78,000 veterans on campus. Our counselors coordinate delivery of on-campus benefits assistance, educational, vocational, or adjustment counseling, and assist veterans in completing 

their education and entering the labor market in viable careers. 

We are committed to the VSOC program and continue to evaluate schools for potential future participation. We also closely collaborate with Department of Defense to provide VR&E services to 

servicemembers going through IDES, have deployed nearly 200 

IDES counselors on 71 installations. We are jointly visiting select 

IDES sites with the Army’s Warrior Transition Command to improve the VR&E referral process and enhance our outreach and 

early intervention counseling services. Since July 2014, we have 

visited 12 Army installations with the Army’s Warrior Transition 

command. We also continue to work on Chapter 36 educational and 

career counseling services to transitioning servicemembers and veterans, updated our Chapter 36 information and incorporated it into 

the Transition Assistance Program curriculums with those updates. 

VR&E is also preparing for the initial development of our new 

case management system. The goals of the new system, develop a 

paperless service delivery model, better support veterans on their 

own terms, ensure consistent service delivery and quality, and 

modernize the employee experience. 

In collaboration with VHA, VR&E has also expanded the use of 

VHA telehealth and CAPRI technologies to enhance direct veterans 

service through online counseling technology and electronic medical 

referrals. VR&E is now implementing new performance measures 

that will place a greater focus on veteran outcomes. Success rate 

is the percentage of veterans who complete their goals and/or have 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
26 

obtained employment (positive outcomes), and the persistence rate 

is the number in the class who have successfully achieved a positive outcome plus those persisting in their rehabilitation, both 

measured against veterans in their class. We will use a 6-year completion model that better reflects the individual needs of veterans 

in VR&E. These new measures of veterans VR&E success are driven by positive outcomes and active participation. VR&E continues 

to refine our business processes. We have lowered cost approval 

thresholds for IL construction to $15,000, and we have implemented additional self-employment reviews. 

At the VR&E training conference last month, we discussed both 

improving service delivery and accountability for case management. 

As caseloads continue to grow, we continue to look at ways to reduce the workload burden on our counselors. 

Of the two remaining open GAO recommendations, new performance measures were implemented on 1 July, and we are awaiting 

development of the new VR&E case management system, which 

will help us to track the post-outcome closures. The 20-year congressionally-mandated study of VR&E cohorts, 2010, 2012, and 

2014, has provided us a wealth of information to date. This year 

we found that approximately 90 percent of participants for all cohorts reported moderate- to high-program satisfaction. 

Nearly one-quarter of our veterans in each cohort have a primary 

rating for PTSO; 85 percent of veterans who achieved rehabilitation from an employment plan in Cohurts I and II are currently 

still employed, and veterans who successfully complete the VR&E 

program report more positive economic outcomes, higher employment rates, annual earnings, and more frequent homeownership. 

Mr. Chairman, we will continue to assess and improve the delivery of VR&E services, and we remain focused on transforming 

VR&E. This concludes my statement. I would be pleased to answer 

your questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. JACK KAMMERER APPEARS IN

THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Kammerer. 

Mr. Charlip, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF RALPH CHARLIP 

Mr. CHARLIP. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Takano, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. My name 

is Ralph Charlip, and I am the deputy assistant secretary for operations and management with the Department of Labor’s Veterans 

Employment and Training Service. 

I am also honored to be a retired Air Force medical service core 

officer, having served 22 years on active duty before becoming a 

Federal civil servant. 

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in today’s hearing 

to discuss the Department’s role in providing employment services 

to our Nation’s veterans and servicemembers in coordination with 

the VA’s vocational rehabilitation and employment program. The 

Department takes our role in providing employment services to veterans and transitioning servicemembers, including those in the 

VA’s VR&E program, very seriously. DOL-funded support for veterans with significant barriers to employment is delivered priVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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marily by disabled veteran outreach program specialists DVOPS in 

American job centers across the country. DVOP positions are funded through the jobs for veteran State grant (JVSG) program administered by DOL VETS. JVSG-funded positions are aligned with 

other employment services provided at American job centers. 

DOL’s employment services for disabled veterans complement 

the services provided by VR&E counselors. This requires close coordination between VR&E and VETS and is managed under a 

memorandum of agreement (MOA) between DOL and VA. The 

most recent MOA is dated February 27, 2015. The MOA describes 

the goals of our coordination, the roles and responsibilities of each 

party, and establishes a working group comprised of staff members 

from both departments to manage the collaboration. We see ourselves as a vital member of a multiparty team—DOL, through Federal, State, and local staff, VA’s VR&E counselors, and the disabled 

veterans who benefit from our services. 

VA’s VR&E is a comprehensive rehabilitation program that assists servicemembers and veterans with service-connected disabilities and barriers to employment in preparing for finding and 

maintaining suitable employment. DVOP specialists, on the other 

hand, provide intensive services to a wider variety of veterans who 

have significant barriers to employment. These barriers may include a service-connected disability, homelessness, low income, lack 

of a high school diploma or equivalent, or similar challenges. While 

VA is not required to refer VR&E participants to DOL for assistance, the new MOA strongly encourages such referrals. 

In practice, a veteran who is enrolled in the VR&E program and 

is referred to DOL interacts with the DVOP at two distinct points. 

The first point is during or following enrollment in the VR&E program when our DVOP specialist provides labor and marketing information, guidance to applicants, new enrollees, and their counselors. This includes information about the types of jobs that are 

available in the geographic area where the veteran desires to work, 

and assessment of the veterans’ skills and the kinds of training 

and education that would be required to enter a particular industry. 

The second point occurs when the veteran nears completion of 

the VR&E program and is beginning to look for work. When the 

veteran is referred to DOL for employment services, a DVOP specialist works with the individual to prepare them for jobs which 

match their abilities, education, and training, and are in the career 

field and geographic area identified within VR&E’s individual written rehabilitation plan. 

The story of Lori Mobbs provides one example of how this interagency coordination works. An Army veteran with more than 15 

years of military service, she utilized the VR&E program to complete her degree in geography in December 2014. Through effective 

collaboration between the Department of Veterans’ Affairs and the 

Alabama Departments of Labor and Veterans’ Affairs, she met with 

the DVOP specialist. Who provided Federal job search assistance 

during her initial visit an AJC in Huntsville, Alabama. Because 

she was eligible for intensive services and because of her strong desire to obtain employment with the National Park Service, the 

DVOP specialist assisted her in applying for several jobs with the 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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National Park Service. I am very pleased to report that she accepted a position at Olympic National Park in Washington State in 

April 2015 and reported to work last month. 

DOL and VA coordinate to give veterans seamless services to 

achieve their employment goals. We are proud of the DOL programs that deliver positive employment outcomes for our disabled 

veterans and look forward to continuing to work with our VA partners and this subcommittee. Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank 

you for the opportunity to take an active part in the hearing. I welcome any questions you might have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. RALPH CHARLIP APPEARS IN

THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I want to thank you both for your testimony. I 

will now yield myself 5 minutes for questions. 

Mr. Kammerer, we heard today that the standard ratio for the 

counselors is 1 to 125, and the budget estimates that it would take 

382 full-time employees. Do you think that number is correct to be 

able to get to that standard? 

Mr. KAMMERER. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I didn’t hear the second question. I heard the 1 to 125. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. The other part of the question is that the independent budget estimates that it would take 382 full-time employees to reach that 1 to 125. Do you think that is a good estimate? 

Mr. KAMMERER. I would have to look at the numbers, Mr. Chairman. I haven’t analyzed the numbers. I would say our caseload 

right now for fiscal year 2014, our average caseload was 135 per 

counselor. As of the end of May, it was 139 per counselor. It is— 

as I testified in my opening statement, the number of participants 

has grown about 10 percent in the last 2 years. So I think that 

right now we are on estimate to exceed the participants from last 

year. So I think that explains the growing caseload, and it is something I will take a look at to answer your questions. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Sure. Also you talk about standards, but there is 

also best practices and what is actually working. And so my next 

question comes down to what the staffing looks like for each counselor. How many people do they have working under them? And 

what are their roles? In other words, we heard from the previous 

testimonies today that talk about enhancing follow-up through IT, 

and so my question comes in, what type of role does the staff for 

each counselor take? Are they doing some of the follow-up? Are 

they keeping up with the client, if you will? And are they another 

access point into the counselor office, if you will? What does that 

look like right now? 

Mr. KAMMERER. That is a great question, Mr. Chairman. The 

counselors are supported by support staff. It is not robust, but the 

fact is, as you mentioned, we are trying to reduce the administrative burden on the counselors through a variety of means. But one 

of those is the new case management system that you described. 

The next is to look at new case management procedures to streamline the process, whether it is Lean Six or other means that we are 

looking into. In our conference last month, we presented some simplified case management flows to the counselors to help them. And 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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then work studies, volunteers. We do have contract support, Mr. 

Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, what does that look like now in numbers? 

From what you just said, I have no idea if the counselor has 30 

people under him or one. 

Mr. KAMMERER. It depends on each regional office, Mr. Chairman. I can get you the breakdown per regional office. As I mentioned, it is a very small support staff that supports the counselors. 

The counselors do a lot of the administrative processing in terms 

of the caseload for their veterans. The support staff assists with the 

processing of the applications, but the case management itself is a 

very counselor-intensive process. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. We talked about this yesterday in our conversation. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Like Lean Six Sigma, and things like that. You 

said the Secretary understands this type of thing. If it varies from 

one place to the other, I think we have a problem. And I think that 

we should be able to come up with what works best, especially in 

the veteran population. And I would suggest that we task ourselves 

with that, or I task you with that, if you will. But we need to find 

that out, what is the best model for staffing? That is how any business would operate. And how do you serve your client the best. Is 

it one person? Is it three people? Are they assigned with roles or 

follow-up? I am not getting answers to that today. And I would like 

to know, really, where we are with that and how we are headed 

to, truly, evaluate what is the best practice method for that. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. I will certainly follow-up and get you 

more detailed information on that. And I certainly concur with 

your thought that the bottom line is we need to ensure consistent 

service delivery, and we need to make sure we understand what is 

going on in each individual office. Because, as I mentioned, the 

caseload per counselor is an average, but each office has individual 

circumstances. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. Takano, you are a now recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Kammerer, you are familiar with Vet Success on Campus, 

that program? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TAKANO. The counselors work with the veterans that are actually on the campuses, correct? And do you know if they are able 

to connect students that might be eligible for VR&E services with 

those services? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. That is a great question. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we currently have 79 VSOC counselors at 94 locations. The VSOC counselors, they are trained vocational rehabilitation counselors with a master’s in counseling. They 

have a separate performance standard, and one of their performance elements is to conduct outreach and to connect with veterans. 

And the thought is—and on our 94 campuses, we serve about 

78,000 veterans. 

Last year we connected with about 29,000 veterans, Mr. Takano, 

first time, and about 28,000 returning veterans. So as part of their 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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duties, they are supposed to conduct outreach. We are very aggressive about connecting with veterans. And then once we connect 

with those veterans, we provide them information on the range of 

VA benefits and services. 

And your specific question was do we help them with vocational 

rehab employment. The answer is in some cases, they may become 

our clients. In other case, they are our clients. Or in other cases, 

they may need Chapter 36 or other support. So we try to reach 

them, and we try to connect and help them. 

Mr. TAKANO. I can imagine this is a pretty key point of contact 

for those veterans, because they are going to the university or the 

community college. If there happens to be a VSOC counselor there, 

they likely make contact with that counselor. And if that counselor 

is able to get to know that student, the question is, are they able 

to refer them to VR&E if they might be eligible. 

I want to know, is there a risk that service-connected disabled 

student veterans are going to school on the GI Bill, because when 

they went through TAP they may not have understood that they 

could be eligible for VR&E services? Is there a risk that they could 

miss out on opportunities and resources that are exclusive to 

VR&E? Can you comment more on that? 

Mr. KAMMERER. It is an excellent question, sir. Thank you for 

that question. 

We have certainly reinforced our content in the Transition Assistance Program about vocational rehabilitation and employment. 

As I mentioned in our statement, we have also provided additional 

updated content recently about Chapter 36 to make sure we reach 

veterans transitioning servicemembers about that. 

But the bottom line is we need to make sure that we provide the 

best information we can to transitioning servicemembers in TAP, 

or even in the refresher online, or even in the IDES program. As 

I mentioned, we have nearly 200 counselors out there working on 

installations. But we need to make sure that we present the information about the VR&E program. 

In some cases, Mr. Takano, as you know, a veteran—as you 

heard in the previous testimony, would make a choice between the 

GI Bill or applying for VR&E. And then once they apply for vocational rehab and employment, as was previously testified, there is 

an eligibility and entitlement decision to be made, and the veteran 

then applies, needs to be eligible with a 10 percent or 20 percent 

disability, and the entitlement decision, as you know, is based on 

the employment barrier that that veteran may or may not have, 

based on their service-connected disability. 

Mr. TAKANO. If they are pursuing their educational benefits 

under the GI Bill and they suddenly discover that they are having 

trouble succeeding in their course work, is the vet at that point 

able to go and seek eligibility under VR&E? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. That is a great question. 

If you are using your GI Bill and later determine that you would 

like to apply for VR&E, we can certainly serve you. We still would 

have to go through the eligibility and entitlement. And then, certainly, once you are eligible and entitled, as you heard in previous 

testimony, our counselors certainly have a wide range of resources 

to support the veteran going through their education. About over 


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60 percent of our clients last year were in education and training 

programs and our counselors have a robust number of means available to assist those veterans in going through their education experiences. 

Mr. TAKANO. Great. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. Costello, you are now recognized. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Mr. Charlip, do you have any way to track how 

many participants that were referred to DOL by VR&E received a 

job as a direct result of services received from DVOP, LVER, or 

other DOL-funded staff? I know there are a lot of acronyms in 

there. 

Mr. CHARLIP. Yes, sir, we do have the ability to track that information. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Okay. Next question. Mr. Kammerer, why do you 

think veterans discontinue from using VR&E services as reflected 

in the longitudinal study, and what are you doing to increase program retention rates? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Thank you, sir. That is a great question. 

I think I would need to get you a detailed answer for the record 

based on the longitudinal study. And I would point out also, Mr. 

Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, the longitudinal study is going 

through the concurrence process and is headed up here for submission this year for our fifth year. 

To answer your question about discontinuations based on a longitudinal study, I think that there is a variety of factors, in general. 

You know, again, the veteran, in some cases, chooses to discontinue 

based on his or her personal circumstances. Many—and we talked 

about—or you talked about in previous testimony the point was 

made about the 90 percent of veterans that were moderately- to 

highly-satisfied that we found this year, that includes the veterans 

that discontinued this year. 

Last year it was 90 percent, nearly 90 percent, not including the 

veterans that discontinued. So we saw in the longitudinal study 

this year a pretty high satisfaction rate. I think it was approaching 

70 percent for those veterans that discontinued. So it appears, at 

least in initial analysis, that veterans have healthy relationships 

with their counselors that are getting services. I think, number 

one, is a choice, some of them discontinue; number two, it could be 

possible that some of those veterans decided to not continue with 

the rehabilitation plan and just seek employment or gain employment on their own. But I will get you detailed answer for the 

record or more detailed answers on that. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Thank you. 

Back to Mr. Charlip. Following up on my first question, how 

have you been able to track how many participants that were referred to DOL by VR&E received a job offer as a direct result of 

their services? 

Mr. CHARLIP. Under the memorandum of agreement that has existed, there is a procedure for doing that, and a form and tool that 

is used to track those referrals. And so we have that information. 

That is then validated by VR&E and VETS on a recurring basis. 

Mr. COSTELLO. And what are the trend lines showing? 

Mr. CHARLIP. I don’t know that, and I will get you an answer. 


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Mr. COSTELLO. Okay. Thank you. 

No further questions. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Ms. Rice, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I am going to ask a slightly proprietary question just because it 

has to do with some schools in my district. But I want to also, like 

Mr. Takano, ask about the VetSuccess on Campus program. So you 

may or may not be aware that Nassau Community College, which 

is in my home district, is in the running to get a VSOC assigned 

to its campus. And in order to qualify, they have agreed to partnership with Adelphi University, which is also in my district, and Suffolk Community College, which is just outside of my district, to 

help their chances of getting a VSOC. 

So my question is, I am not going to put you on the spot and say, 

when do you plan on deciding who gets the VSOCs, because that 

would be far too self-serving. But what I am getting at is, I understand you say you have 79 VSOCs at 94 locations. Until that number is we have X number at every single location, every school so 

that every single vet who is attending school can be approached 

and hopefully get information about the VR&E program or any 

other service that is available to them. I guess my question is how 

many other colleges are trying to get a VSOC right now at this moment, and do you have plans to expand this program in the future? 

Mr. KAMMERER. That is a great question. I would take, for the 

record, the number of schools that have actually requested a 

VSOC, ma’am. We have that available. We have done detailed 

analysis, and we certainly maintain a list of schools that we would 

like to serve with VSOC counselors, certainly with resources permitting, and we do that analysis all the time. It is complete. It is 

ongoing analysis. And you have a great point. You know, there are 

many thousands of schools that are supported by the GI Bill, and 

there are many, many thousands of veterans that are attending 

college on those campuses, and we are only serving at this point 

the 94 schools. 

So we have also looked at a number of things. I was in a meeting 

yesterday. We are looking at how would we provide VSOC support 

online, because, as you know, ma’am, there are many veterans and 

many servicemembers take advantage of educational opportunities 

online. So it is an obvious question, how much you provide support 

to veterans that are attending school online. 

We have done a pilot at the University of Iowa to develop some 

exportable content that we might be able to provide some instruction to schools to use it to better serve and help veterans particularly on the employment side. So it is certainly something my boss, 

Deputy Under Secretary Coy has a very—as you know, a very dedicated interest to serving veterans on campus, and we strongly look 

at opportunities for the VSOC program. And we do—and we will 

get you the detailed list of schools that have asked for VSOCers. 

But the bottom line is we look at a number of criteria, including 

one of the things we like to do is serve as many veterans as possible, ma’am. But the partnering that you mentioned is so important in that, and we have a number of schools where we do partner, where a VSOC counselor will serve multiple schools to serve 

as many veterans as possible. And that model, ma’am, works pretty 


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well, although it certainly does put a challenge on the counselor 

serving multiple locations, but I think we try to manage that geographically. 

Ms. RICE. It wouldn’t be an ideal situation to have one counselor 

for three schools that are not always geographically friendly, but 

at least that is a start. And to me, over and over we hear a recurring issue regarding outreach to veterans. How—where can we find 

them? How do we communicate with them, whether it is online, 

through the mail whatever it is. It seems to me that the number 

of veterans we know—we can capture the number of veterans who 

are actually using the GI Bill, right? That is a number we have the 

ability to get. It is like—I don’t know if this is a wrong phrase, but 

it is like shooting fish in a barrel. We know where they are, so why 

aren’t we putting a counselor there to make it easier to do that outreach? So that is that. 

One other question for you. Many of our veterans, and we hear 

over and over again, they face invisible barriers to employment. So 

my question is, how do you train VR&E counselors to work with 

vulnerable veterans who are suffering from a mental health issue, 

so it is not a lost limb or something that overt, and who may have 

been discharged with an other-than-honorable designation? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Let me answer your first question first, ma’am. 

As I mentioned in my opening statement, and you will see the longitudinal study shortly, there is very detailed data in the longitudinal study that indicates for the 2010, 2012, and 2014 cohorts on 

or about 25 percent of the veterans that were studied in those 3 

years, those 3 cohort years, had PTSD. And certainly, PTSD is not 

the only mental health challenge that we are talking about here. 

It is very, very important to us to make sure that our counselors 

are trained and aware and our other employees are aware of these 

challenges for veterans. We deployed training last year to all the 

VR&E staff that we worked with the—we partner, and the question was asked earlier with VHA. We partner with VHA, particularly with the mental health side. We are partnering right now 

with Dr. Stacey Pollack, who is one of the national PTSD experts, 

and it is very, very critical to us to continue to support our veterans along those aspects as you talked about. 

So the longitudinal study indicates the criticality of what you 

mentioned, ma’am. We are partnering with VHA on the mental 

health side. We have fielded additional training, and it is very, 

very important. The question of who we serve with less than honorable, certainly, you know—another thing I should have mentioned 

too, it wasn’t really your question, but we also work with VHA on 

the homeless side, because some of the homeless veterans could, in 

fact, as you well know, ma’am, be eligible for VR&E services. 

So—— 

Ms. RICE. One of my other questions, I know I am out of time, 

but I wanted to see what you were doing. What are counselors 

doing to help veterans find—find and retain housing, which is 

this—they are equally problematic, the joblessness and the homelessness, obviously. But I think my time is up. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman—— 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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So can you answer that about, we talk a lot about employment, 

but what are you doing in terms of helping veterans obtain and retain housing? 

Mr. KAMMERER. On the housing side, that is really the purview 

of VHA and the homeless program. As you mentioned, ma’am, I 

think—and my boss reminds me all the time, that the E in VR&E 

is for employment. So I think that our piece to that is we are working on the—with the homeless team in terms of identifying those 

veterans, that those homeless veterans, that they are working with, 

to achieve the housing side of it, and then if they are potentially 

eligible and entitled for VR&E services, that we would work with 

them with a counselor and then work with them on the employment side. 

So I think the employment part for us is the critical part, but I 

think the key thing to your question is that we do closely partner 

with VHA on the homeless team. And most of that—or a lot of that 

happens at the local level as well in terms of that partnership, you 

know, in your district or where there are VHA facilities that have 

the operational homeless teams identifying the potential clients 

that they could refer to VR&E as they are assisting them in their 

needs, we would assist them. 

Again, many of them would be eligible and entitled for VR&E, 

as you pointed out, and we would want to connect with them. And 

as you know, ma’am, in some cases, connecting with them could be 

a challenge, but we work with VHA to make sure we do that. 

Ms. RICE. Well, if there is any obstacle to that communication 

that really should happen between the two agencies responsible for 

these two issues, I would hope that you would bring that to our attention if there is something that we could do. Because there is no 

reason to silo those two issues, homelessness and joblessness. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Lisa Pape, the director of the VHA homeless 

program came and talked to our VR&E officers last year, and we 

partner with her closely and the teams. But, again, as I mentioned, 

as you pointed out, the interactions are local, and we have to make 

sure that—and we are working to make sure that our counselors 

at the local level and officers at the local level are partnering 

through VBA and VHA to make sure we make those connections 

with the potential veterans that could benefit from our services. 

Because, as you pointed out, housing is a piece of that, but employment is a critical task. 

Ms. RICE. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. A couple of things before we wrap up. 

Mr. Charlip, I am not sure you have it right, and I may be 

wrong, but I don’t think that you are able to track if the employment that the veteran has is a direct result of the work from your 

agency. You may be able to track that they have employment, but 

whether it was a direct result of the work of your agency or something they did on their own you are not able to track. And that we 

may want to clarify, and those would be numbers that we would, 

I think, it is important for us to know as we move forward. 

Mr. Kammerer, going back to the counselors. You know, our goal 

there is to increase productivity and possibly do it as a lesser cost. 

So there may be certain standards that exist, but we need to evaluVerDate Aug 31 2005 07:26 Oct 07, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-685.TXT PAT

VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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ate what our standards need to be as far as staffing for each of the 

counselors. 

For example, in our medical practice, I didn’t call every one of 

my post-op patients, but my medical assistant did. And if I needed 

to intervene, then I got involved. But we used staff to make sure 

that they were doing okay, and everything was going fine. So those 

are the types of things that I think we need to look at, because we 

can have extenders to our counselors, and maybe possibly don’t 

need more counselors, but more extenders for them. And one of the 

things that we discussed, as we go down the road, and you and I 

talked about it offline, is what we are doing with IDES, the locations, do we need a full-time person at each location? Can they be 

part time? Situations like that that we can evaluate and hopefully 

be more efficient and make sure that we are getting the job done. 

But with that, I want to thank you both for your testimony and 

for answering our questions. You are now excused. 

And I thank everyone for your attendance today and the frank 

and valuable discussion on how to improve the important programs. As I said earlier, this program should be the crown jewel 

of benefits within the Department. And while great strides have 

been made by Mr. Kammerer, your staff, and others, progress still 

needs to be made to give the proper services to our most severely 

wounded veterans. I look forward to continuing to work with everyone here today and others to ensure that we reach our goals. Our 

veterans deserve nothing less. 

Finally, I ask unanimous consent that all members have 5 legislative days to revise and extend the remarks and include any extraneous material in the record of today’s hearing. Hearing no objection, so ordered. If there is nothing further, this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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