Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the Signage Subcommittee meeting and is unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting. 1

x--------------------------------x UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD
RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS
ADVISORY COMMITTEE

x--------------------------------x

SIGNAGE SUBCOMMITTEE
TELECONFERENCE THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2014

1:00 p.m.

**DRAFT**

Staff Location:

United States Access Board 1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000 Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra Gartrell2

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
SIGNAGE SUBCOMMITTEE OPERATOR: Thank you for standing by. At this time all participants have their lines open, interactive. To unmute your line, press star 6, to mute press star 6. I will turn the call over to our presenter. Thank you. MR. BEATTY: Thank you, Jeremy. This is Paul Beatty from the Access Board. I thank you for attending the third Signage Subcommittee conference call. Before I turn the call over to Terry, who is the Chair of the Signage Subcommittee, we would like to go through introductions. So I am first asking Earlene if she can read off those on the conference call system. MS. SESKER: Okay. Let me, first of all, start by apologizing for anyone's name I may butcher, since I'm seeing these names for the first time, in most

cases. And we have Marilyn Golden, Janice Schrader-Lintz (sic) -- MS. LINTZ: Schatner. MS. SESKER: Schacter Lintz. Edward Feegan, Ed Hoff, Edward Steinfeld, Lise Hamlin, Linda Martin,3

Robert Carlson, Frank Maldari, Michael Porter, Andrew Phillips, Jackson Xiu, Terry Pacheco, Billy Altom, Chris Hart, Blair Slaughter. And that's it at this point in time for the call-ins. MR. BEATTY: Thank you, Earline. And, Sandra, will you let us know who is attending by the CART system. CART REPORTER: Andrew Phillips, Andre Gagné, Frank Maldari, Lise Hamlin and Michael Porter. MR. PECHT: Thank you. Before I turn it over to Terry, one last thing, and I failed to do it right now, please identify yourself by your names. I should have said, "This is Paul Beatty." So now this is Paul Beatty and I'm turning it over to Terry. Take it away, Terry. CHAIR PACHECO: Good afternoon. This is Terry Pacheco. First of all, I want to thank you for all participating in this. Hopefully we will get a lot accomplished today. I'm sorry that I have not been in touch with some of you that have sent me information, as such. I have been ill up until about three days ago and I'm still trying to catch up with my own tail right now. But I think we have a lot we can get done today and a lot we should be able to get done in the very near future.4

With that, I am going to turn it over to Jim, who is going to give us an update on -- just a refresher on the last conference call on the 13 of February. MR. PECHT: Yes. Very briefly, last conference call first thing we did is we elected Ms. Pacheco, the Chair of the subcommittee. Yay. And we began a discussion on the list of categories and some of the examples of the types of signs we would be looking at that was passed around last package. You all should have in this package as well. There was discussion, pretty much, about different types of categories and whether we -- the proposal was to add a new category for caution and safety signs, as opposed to informational -- or as a subcategory of informational. And there was some brief discussion about some of the hearing access signage and the (inaudible) use and that sort of thing. But, for the most part, we spent the time discussing the list that was provided. And at the end of that, we sort of had a sort of small group sort of pair off with Ms. Pacheo, Gary Talbot, me and Blair Slaughter, were supposed to go huddle up and do some things. Unfortunately that has not happened as of yet but we are still going to work on it. And that is5

pretty much what the last meeting was and I will turn it over to Ms. Pacheco. CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, very much, Jim. I am trying to find my agenda to see what is next on it, truthfully. The subcommittee, the scope, scope and objective. I'm assuming everyone on the call has read that document and do we have any questions on it? Are we all pretty clear on where we are going? MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: The only questions I have on the list for the signage is I'm not clear if like some of those signs, kind of what the use is of some of the signs. For example, when it says "emergency informational sign," is that a sign that is in case there is an emergency this is telling you what to do, where therefore it should be, in my opinion, should be audible or is that like an exit sign? I'm not sure what some of those signs mean. Are they emergency, informational operational, nonemergency signs. But I'm not sure what those signs are. So I would like to go through the signage categories to fully understand. Because, you know, if it is just a basic "this is the exit sign," we don't need it audible, but if it is saying in an emergency -- if it is one of those strips that is6

telling you what is going on, then it needs to be audible with a loop. CHAIR PACHECO: You mean like the moving message? MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Right. So I can't tell from this what those are. You know the basic red and white exit sign, no, it doesn't need to be audible, in my opinion. My colleagues may feel otherwise. But if it is a message sign that, you know, is going to distribute emergency information, then it should be audible. MR. PECHT: I guess I can sort of jump in a little bit. An emergency information -- the sign that gives you -- the informational sign that gives you information about the emergency things would be things like "here is the passenger emergency intercom, this is where it is, this is where it is located, there it is." An operational sign would be like the little sticker you find on the windows that are the emergency exits giving you instructions about how to operate that window, how to take it out in an emergency to get out. That would be operational, gives sort of instructions on how to do something, do an actual task, as opposed to an information sign that says "here is the thing and this is where you find it." That sort of thing.7

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think I would like to go through the signs so I'm clear. Because from reading the list, like operational one, like telling me how to punch out a window, that doesn't need to be audible. But I'm not clear -- the category names are very similar. I'm not sure. And if there are photos of what something like that looks like, that also would assist me in determining whether it should be audible. Because, like I said, anything that is changing information or, you know, in terms of what to do in an emergency, then I want to have -- but in an emergency like "push out this window" but in terms of "we have a snowstorm, we are skipping a station" or "this door is no longer working, you now need to use the back door instead of the front," those need to be audible with an induction loop. But "exit this way," no, it doesn't need to be. MR. PHILLIPS: And I fully support what Janice is saying. I know it is difficult for me to participate. I'm calling through the relay service. Hopefully if I do interject, you know, I apologize for any, you know, anything. But, anyway, I'm deaf and hard of hearing calling through a relay service. And being a deaf and hard of hearing person, we do need some visual representation8

and I fully support your stance on that, Janice. <<<: It's for audible, not visual. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Thank you. CHAIR PACHECO: Janice, I completely agree with you. I'm wondering if perhaps the solution is our topic should be one is in case of emergency and impending emergency. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You know what, I'm just not

sure -- CHAIR PACHECO: That is kind of what you are saying, I think. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm not sure what these signs are. So maybe if each category is explained and if maybe at some point an example can be provided of what they look like. Because I can't tell the difference between non-emergency informational sign, non-emergency operational sign, emergency -- I'm not that keyed in on my signage. I know when I see it or when it is described to me, whether that sign needs to be audible and then have an audible loop in terms of visual redundancy. Someone who is hard of hearing does not want information edited. But if something is, for example, an exit sign, there is no information edited. The exit sign is not changing, you can see it, there is9

nothing that needs to be audible to be communicated. CHAIR PACHECO: Actually, the thing is that does need to be audible for someone who can't see it. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, no. I'm talking about people who are hard of hearing. CHAIR PACHECO: I'm talking about all disabilities. We need to look at it from the whole perspective, I think, perhaps. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I can only respond to people who are deaf and hard of hearing. I have never said I could represent people with visual impairments. I can give you from a narrow perspective. And then my colleagues who are representing people who are visually impaired and blind, they will take a position on that and I will support them. I am not preventing anyone else. I can't give you an expert opinion on that because I just -- for me it is a learning process and I want to learn as much as possible about the other disabilities but I don't have the expertise. Is that clear? So I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm just say for people who are deaf and hard of hearing. But I'm not clear what these signs are, what they look like and therefore can't make a decision based on just words because I don't know what they are. It's not10

clear to me. MR. SLAUGHTER: Let me offer this. A lot of the signs, when we think about signs typically we are thinking about nonactive static signs. Obviously we have to think about signs that are active in real time. So you have -- let's say we have an emergency direction sign that is always in the same place and always says the same thing. Because of its placement, it may not be of any use to someone who is blind or impaired, but it may be fine for someone who is hard of hearing and sighted. And then we have to break away to the immediate messages where something has occurred that is out of the norm, "we are not going to make this station stop" or there is an emergency and there are instructions coming from the crew. And I think that is where we get into with, you know, visual and audible messages that the audible obviously is delivered over the induction loop and the regular PA system and the visual information sign. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But there are many messages that are perceived as static, but are not. For example, stops, which would be perceived as static, those should be audible and visual. So therefore an induction loop would come in.11

So I think we really need a visual representation of what these signs are or let's discuss them and go one by one of what every sign is. But I can't make assumptions not being in the signage business and not knowing what these are, whether or not -- just because something has been that way doesn't mean it should continue. But I don't know what it is and I may think it should continue but I don't know what it is. <<<: (Inaudible) that these categories here, are going to explain and possibly provide a diagram -- MR. PECHT: Who is speaking, please?

(NO RESPONSE) MR. PECHT: Remember to identify yourself when you start speaking. And, secondly, can we sort of dial back just a little bit and sort of take -- start with signs and things like dynamic announcements that come from like, say, a crew, sort of a real time "here is this problem, we need to do this," sort of understand that is a communication issue. It needs to be done in both visual and audible with the induction loop, et cetera, but really not discuss those at this point in time and just sort of talk about the signs, which are sort of rote or static or print signs, in other words, an automatic stop announcement says "this is the Rochester Station, doors opening," whatever.12

Look at that as a variable message sign in audible format as well. And take this sort of dynamic real time announcements out of the mix at this point in time. Is that something we can agree to? MR. MALDARI: I would agree with that. And I think the scope of this is getting too wide and too confusing. Most of these signs are static signs. And there is a lot of work to be done on static signs. And if we can focus on that first, then the dynamic signs, the messaging and emergency variable signs, that should be the second part of what we are doing. We have a lot of work to do on just static signs first and we are complicating the issue by including all these variable messages. So I think that is the way we should go. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I would like to go through since I am not in the train business, I'm in the access business. I am not familiar with what people in the rail business constitute as static and nonstatic. And I would like to go through. And while the Long Island Railroad may find it tedious, I don't mind spending that time going through it. I would like to go through each sign that you consider in the static category because I may not find13

it static, and I need to know what I'm agreeing to. What you consider static and I consider static may not be considered static. And based on a recent meeting I had with Long Island Railroad, I have come to the realization we are on different playing fields. So I would like to go through that, quote, tedious process. MR. MALDARI: I didn't say we shouldn't look at them or categorize them. I said we should focus on the static signs and we can go through them. I think there is a lot of signs here. And if you want to go through each one and try to explain it. I personally think the level of detail we got in with these signs is way too deep. If you look at the chart that was made, it is better, it categorizes the signs. It doesn't get into every last detail and every single directional sign that exists. And I think if we spend some time going through that chart, I don't know who created it, but it is a good outline of what we are trying to do here. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm happy to go through -- take one cat -- to me, start with the top category. I mean, I think the chart is great. It is a starting point. I think we start with the directional signs.14

We go through and we explain what those are. Then we move to the next category and we chip away. And I'm fine, happy to be part of it. I don't know what static signs are and I don't necessarily agree that -- I may find that I do agree with you. But the problem is, since I'm not clear what you consider static signs without seeing them, whether I consider those static signs and I'm not fully -- just because something has been one way, this is an opportunity to assess whether that is the correct way. And I am personally thrilled to take the time to go through this and figure out what we are doing. I don't want to make assumptions. I find that is a very bad way to do things because that is the way things are carried forward in the future that could be changed. MR. PHILLIPS: The importance of the signs for the deaf and hard of hearing people -- I believe are last subcommittee meeting that we had was talking about this issue. And what we were looking for was an opportunity, if you will, to really look at each one of them and make sure of the accessibility. I think the point here is we don't want to pass up that opportunity to be able to do exactly what Janice is15

saying. CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, Andrew. My feeling -- Janice, to begin with, you and I are very much on the same page. We both come from access. Neither one of us is in the train business or the sign business, as such. Could somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but static signs, in my mind, are the ones that are glued to the wall that say "exit", that say something that is not going to change because it is not electronic, it is not audible. It is, of course, visible. It may be tactile. It should be both visual and tactile, at least. That is what my thought of what a static sign is. "Static" meaning it is not moving. It is not related to something that is in flux or in change, as opposed to an electronic sign, VMS's, the electronic one that just has exit. A lighted sign, if you will, would probably not be a static sign. And I'm wondering could we start at that jumping off point, perhaps. MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good definition. Static signs, from the way we look at it, is something that is permanent and doesn't change. You are talking about decals and maybe a label, could be metal. But it is a label that is saying the same thing all day16

long. Variable message sign is clearly something that you want to have the audible and visual duplication. But it is a changing sign, it is a changing message. And there are some types, if you look through this carefully, there are a couple of other things like door closing alarm. Again, that is what you were saying about a light that comes on and off. That is an alert and different from a static sign. So if we want to use that definition, I think it is a good one. If you want to go through these charts and try to categorize them, that is a good way to start. MR. SLAUGHTER: Frank, I would agree with that and, Terry, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think part of this exercise, from my standpoint -- because we have gone through a lot of effort to make signs tactile and visual, but there may be some signs that simply is not enough. So we may continue to have a static sign. But there may be information that we need to know how to communicate, how to best communicate to people who that sign may be of little value or because of its placement it is not immediately available for orientation. So I think if we can work off the non-changing signs with the idea that as we go through or maybe17

after we go through them and decide what needs to be just visual or visual and tactile, then we can also go back through and say, "Okay, that message, depending on the conditions or maybe always needs to be explained in another method that is not a static thing glued to the wall. Maybe there needs to be an audible explanation of some of these things." That is not going to be everything that we see, that we have here. But I think if we have our list as the left-hand column and assume that that is static information and then we move across and most of those items are going to stay there, they are going to get designations that's needing to be visual and tactile or just visual. And then there are going to be some that come further out and are going to need further explanation because maybe that is simply not enough for a better level of accessibility. And then the challenge will be how do we do that. I don't think the committee needs to labor too much on "needs to be achieved" but "to be achieved." We can argue how to do it later. That way we can get through and make determination of what level of accessible each message needs to have or each type of message. Again, I would go back and say let's start with the categories. I think even within a category there18

will be messages that don't need a more complex explanation and there will be those that do. So I would say we should start on that and try to make as much headway as we can, but not close any doors and go back and talk about some of these things there are questions about. For Janice or any of the rest of us who are not real sure or not comfortable, we are not closing the door and turning off the light on any of these things until we get further down the path. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm uncomfortable with that. I would like to start at the top of the list and work our way down. I'm an attorney. I'm very methodical. I think things get lost and forgotten. And I would like to start at the top of the list, since the list was made, very thoughtfully. Let's start at the top, work our way down and this way we know where we started and stopped. This is very straightforward. It may be simple to you. It may be clear what you think is fixed and what is not. I would have to agree to disagree with you. I think there are a lot of signs that people in the rail industry think are static that shouldn't be. And I had a meeting with the Long Island Railroad the other day explaining that stop signs they felt were19

static. They are not static. They change. So I think that is very not accurate when we say. So why don't we start simply from the top and work our way down. And this list was compiled for a reason and this way we know where we stopped and started. CHAIR PACHECO: Let's just get something done. Go ahead. Why don't we -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: (Inaudible) directional sign. That's where we started. Let's start from the top and then we go through. We explain what the sign is and make the determination. I don't know why it is so complicated. CHAIR PACHECO: Because we do not have time to go through an audible description of every sign, I don't believe -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But we have to. CHAIR PACHECO: -- on this call. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: We have to. Then we have to make another call for people not in the sign business -- CHAIR PACHECO: You don't need to be -- I'm sorry. You do not need to be in the sign business to know what a stop sign looks like. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Sorry, I don't know what20

some of these signs are, stop signs. And if they are that brief, they will take five seconds. And I want to go through all of the signs. If we are making a determination, I need to know what everything is. And it is not like you included photos or descriptions. This is not clear for the nonsign people. I'm a hearing access person and I want to go through the list. Sending me a list like this is not clear. CHAIR PACHECO: But sending other people pictures is not clear either. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It is, it is clear. CHAIR PACHECO: It is not clear to a blind person like myself. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But you can have both and that goes back to redundancy of words and visual. So where it is not clear to someone who is blind, it is clear to somebody who relies on that information. And that is why -- thank you for reinforcing -- I believe we need redundancy. MR. MALDARI: A quick comment. I'm not against going through some of this stuff. I think you have to be clear on what we are trying to do. If someone is blind, they need to get information in another means. If someone is deaf -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm not disagreeing with21

that. MR. MALDARI: Let me finish. -- they need to get their information in another means; okay? And we need to be clear the signs on the car now, most decals are all visual. We can go through them and decide if another means for purpose of the signs needs to be provided. We don't have to say it needs to be a hearing loop at this time or how it is going to be provided. If something needs to be provided to the visually impaired and the hearing impaired, to limit yourself -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It's hard of hearing. MR. MALDARI: -- to limit yourself specifically

-- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Can we use politically correct terms. It is "people who are hard of hearing" and it is not "hearing impaired." People are not defined by their disability. MR. MALDARI: Okay. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'd appreciate it if we use politically correct information in the call. I'm not disagreeing with this. I'm just saying

-- MR. MALDARI: But you are constantly interrupting me and if you don't let me finish --22

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I want to get through the call -- MR. MALDARI: Do you? MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I just want to go through the list. MR. MALDARI: Sounds like you're just arguing. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Someone sends a list, I don't understand the list. I'm saying let's go from the top, work our way down. Seems logical. That's usually the way agendas work. And I don't really understand -- and the fact that there is such strong pushback is concerning to me because that should be a simple, straightforward request and the pushback is concerning to me of what is going to be shuffled under the rug. And so I want to go through, start at the top. I am not familiar with this. I am not precluding any visual for any disability. I want to understand what every category is so that I can thoughtfully agree or disagree with something. I don't know what I'm agreeing or disagreeing. I don't even understand what these signs are. MR. PECHT: Janice, the list was sort of put out as a large number of examples people had sort of accumulated and sent in and we tried to sort of23

categorize the list. The list is not exhaustive. There are probably more types of signs out there than each of the categories we show. It was more or less to get the general categories sort of specified to sort of discuss on such a general point, very general point, what direction to go with regards to -- how do you -- what type of accessibility do you apply to those type of categories -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yeah, my understanding is this. We are wasting time. Let's just go through the list. I understand all of that. I'm not familiar with the categories. Let's just start from the top, work our way through and then we can make comments along the way. I don't understand what the delay is. You know, you have to understand not all of us are in the rail businesses, not all of us are in the sign businesses. The same way we have to be patient with the rail people and understand what different type of access is, the rail business has to be patient with the access people for understanding what the rail business is. That is just the way it works and that's how we come up with good solutions. So let's start from the top and work our way down. I don't understand what the delay is. I mean, we've wasted a half hour on24

this. CHAIR PACHECO: Yes, we have. And we would have been through this by now. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Not really because I don't understand your categories and so I need to and I'd like to go through it. And I understand -- I have to represent people who are deaf and hard of hearing. I need to understand. Just because something has been one way doesn't mean it has to continue that way. And based on my -- my experience is based on change. MR. MALDARI: I'm just going to jump in one more time and try to clarify. I think what Mr. Pecht was saying, we don't -- I don't think you need to go through every single -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I do. I -- MR. MALDARI: You gotta let me speak. You gotta let me speak.

(Simultaneous Discussion) CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. You're out of -- (Simultaneous Discussion) MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You're wasting time. CHAIR PACHECO: Excuse me. Excuse me, as Chair of this committee, I'm sorry, Janice, you are out of order. Please let Mr. Maldari finish. Thank you. MR. MALDARI: The point I'm making is we've25

categorized these signs. Jim's point this is not an exhaustive list of every single sign in each category. So as a category, these are examples of the signs. And as a category they need to be categorized as to how they should be displayed, the information should be displayed and this is what the chart does. Now, we can go through these but I don't think you need to say every single sign and put a specific category under it. That was the idea of grouping them. And the grouping is very helpful because then you will come up with examples of signs like this that will fall into this category. And if you are not sure if a particular sign falls in a particular category, we can discuss that. But to think we are going to identify every single sign listed here, some of which is duplicates because they were trying to put in this as they were listed, is not the right way to do things. The right way to do things is to go by category. If you think of a type of sign and you are not sure what category it falls in, that is the discussion that needs to be made. And how that information for that category of sign is displayed is the goal that we have today, I believe, and that is what the chart does very well. And we can discuss --26

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: In your opinion, in your opinion. Not to me. I'm not in the sign business.

I'm not -- CHAIR PACHECO: Then maybe we should take a vote. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I think what we -- no, I'm sorry. You are not allowed even as a chair of a committee to tell someone they are not allowed to have information. And I am ask -- CHAIR PACHECO: I didn't say that you were not allowed to have information. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, that is what comes off. CHAIR PACHECO: Well, if you would -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I cannot understand -- you created a chart without explanation and I don't understand your chart and the way you categorize it. There are no examples of the type of signs. MR. MALDARI: There are. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, there are not. MR. MALDARI: Listen, they made a list and on the list they categorize -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Who is "they"? Who made this list? CHAIR PACHECO: This committee. Have you been on any of these calls?27

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Of course. Who made this chart? CHAIR PACHECO: Jim put it together based on what several members of this committee submitted and that is why there are some duplicates because several of us submitted. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: So did I. I submitted and I did that. But he didn't include those types of charts, the types of signs he thought go in each committee -- in each little box. I can't get in his head and know what he's thinking. And all of you that responding are all in the rail community. CHAIR PACHECO: That is not true. I am not in the rail community. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But you are running the committee and speaking with other people. I'm not. Can we just start at the top and work our way down and give examples of each little box so that I can understand this. I cannot understand why there is such opposition to explain to me what a directional sign is, what is a destination sign, what does a destination sign tell me. Let's just go through this. It would have taken 15 minutes. It has taken 40 minutes to argue why we shouldn't do this. MR. MALDARI: Did you read what was attached to28

the meeting?
MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yes -- MR. MALDARI: There is a list -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- I did. MR. MALDARI: Okay. There is a list. The list has it categorized and gives examples of each type. There is a list with all the categorization and there's a chart which summarizes it. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, it doesn't. No -- MR. MALDARI: If you are not sure what the examples are, if they are not sure what the examples are, then go to the fixed page document, eight-page document that has the categories of signs and the typical examples of signs that fall into that category. This is what we spent time talking about at the last meeting. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I have been on the phone calls and participating -- MR. MALDARI: So it's frustrating -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- and participating, so -- MR. MALDARI: I'm telling you, it is frustrating to me that you haven't read because you are asking questions that suggest you have not read this. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: First of all, I just29

received this five minutes before the call and I never received the email, which I've already contacted Access Board to please confirm I was on the mail. So I didn't receive it. MR. MALDARI: We talked about this at the last conference call. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I was on the call and I participated on the call. So please don't ask whether I was there since you know I contributed. MR. MALDARI: I'm trying to tell you that this information -- you are asking for us to go through and identify things which we've already done. There are examples here. If you are not sure if a specific item belongs in the category, we can go category by category and say, "I am not sure if this belongs here." We can do that. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Fine. Then why don't I ask you, since you are so familiar, can you please send me photos of what some of these signs look like for the categories since I'm not familiar with this and we will do this offline? But I would like photos of what these signs look like. I'm not familiar with it. And since it seems to be so simple for you, why don't you take the lead on that and provide me copies of the photos? Because I'm a visual person, I need to know30

what things look like and I'm not clear from what all of this is. Because when you say "station maps" and "way-finders," New York City has recently implemented way-finders that are touchscreen. Is there audible?
Some states -- CHAIR PACHECO: (Inaudible) static. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- may have audible, some states don't. And if they have audible they need an induction loop. So that's not clear. I know that -- if they are adding that onto trains, telling me a station map and a way-finding sign, I don't know if that is a static sign or a moveable sign. It is not clear. So, you know, things with technology are changing. I don't understand. I would like photos of what we are talking about here. CHAIR PACHECO: Then you need to also make -- somebody has got to make audio descriptions of every one of them because this is what I requested at the last session. And we cannot do that because we have to put all the documentation up on the website and it all has to be accessible. Therefore all of the pictures that you want has to also have an audio description. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Okay. I'm not asking --31

CHAIR PACHECO: Do you have somebody -- do you have anyone that would be willing to volunteer to do all of the audio descriptions? MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I don't. I would send someone from the visual impairment community to do that. I'm in the hearing -- CHAIR PACHECO: We're visual -- I know you are in the hearing loss. The point is, it is the visually impaired community as opposed to the hearing impaired community that -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It's not hearing impaired. It is deaf and hard of hearing. CHAIR PACHECO: I am hearing impaired. I don't

care -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't care what you are. CHAIR PACHECO: -- what you want to call it. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please stop -- CHAIR PACHECO: Please stop -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please don't take this personal. CHAIR PACHECO: -- interrupting. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are attacking me personally. And I don't want to be attacked personally. CHAIR PACHECO: I am not attacking you32

personally.
MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are.
CHAIR PACHECO: You are -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Telling me you don't care what other people want to be called, the community is --CHAIR PACHECO: I don't -- MR. CAPOZZI: Janice -- (Simultaneous Discussion) MR. CAPOZZI: Janice, this is -- CHAIR PACHECO: I'm not having any further discussion on this. This has gone too far. I am going to suggest that we either -- that perhaps we need to just cancel this call because this is just absolutely nonproductive. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, I think -- CHAIR PACHECO: I think that it is a shame and an absolute disservice to the rest of the committee. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I think -- MR. CAPOZZI: Janice -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- what is disturbing to me is when you compile something like this with way-finding signs. And the New York City Transit has just announced that their way-finding signs are now going to be visual with touchscreens. And I don't33

know if those are going to have sound. Then they have to have audio description and an induction loop attached. And that does not necessarily make a static sign the way in the 1960s we just had little visual

maps. CHAIR PACHECO: And nobody has said that it does. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm asking -- CHAIR PACHECO: We have actually been telling you since the beginning of this call, practically, that that is not a static sign. All we wanted to do was split into static and nonstatic and I had agreed to go and we all agreed to go -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling. CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please stop yelling in my

ear. CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling. CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling. Now maybe you have a problem with your phone. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, actually I don't. CHAIR PACHECO: I don't know, but I am not yelling. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And I don't have a hearing loss as well.34

But you know what, station maps might be considered static and may not be and I can't tell from this what is static and what is not. CHAIR PACHECO: They are going -- so they will end up in two different categories, not -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And how can I tell you what category? CHAIR PACHECO: -- everything is going to be in one category. This is ridiculous. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, you're not allowing me to speak. MR. CAPOZZI: Terry -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't know what category something goes in if I don't know what it is. And I can read this list, but the problem is with technology today, things are changing from what was previously flat signs of a picture of an exit to suddenly becoming moveable, nonstatic.

CHAIR PACHECO: We -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And even signs that were previously static, they shouldn't have been static. CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: So that's the problem. CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very well a --35

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm trying to understand. CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very aware of that. And if perhaps if you listened to all of us as we went through this a bit, you would be understanding it by

now. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, because I said let's start from the top of the chart and go down -- and I was surprised, frankly, and shocked to find out that starting at the top and working your way down was not an acceptable solution. CHAIR PACHECO: I'm very surprised at the whole behavior -- at this whole incident, frankly. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, I'm surprised that you are yelling. So, you know -- CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling. You are certainly yelling. CHAIR PACHECO: I am sitting in an office where I am not yelling. I have other people around me. Nobody else has an issue -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, it is coming across loud on my end, so I can't say what is going on.

(Simultaneous Discussion) MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I just don't understand why we can't go from the top and work down. But, you36

know, I will go --

(Simultaneous Discussion) MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I will go defend my rights to this. CHAIR PACHECO: And so do we. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Fine, then please proceed since you're the Chair. MR. CAPOZZI: Janice and Terry, this is David at the Access Board. CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, David. MR. CAPOZZI: So just a note about keeping things civil -- and I understand there's emotions on these issues, but I think it is important that we all respect each other's positions and let each other speak and finish your sentences. And, you know, I think we are all trying to achieve the same purpose, especially coming from Terry and Janice, you are both advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. So I don't think there is any, you know, cross-purpose that we are working at here. So let's just try to tone it down a bit and move along in a civil manner. CHAIR PACHECO: Jim, do you have the list in front of you? MR. PECHT: Yes, Terry, I do. I have both the table, which is something separate, and the list that37

came along with the agenda. CHAIR PACHECO: Right, okay. Could you explain the table to the folks on the call. MR. PECHT: Yes, I can. CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you. MR. PECHT: I basically took the categories, the general categories that we sort of discussed in a previous thing that we put out with the whole list, put them on the table and then put either tactile and visual, visual, variable methods signs not required and then the last is a rail type of thing, we can discuss later. What I put out was how the current building standards under the ADA would treat each of these types of sign. This is not how I expect the rail community and the rail vehicle to attack these signs. Obviously there are going to be different access in different places for different things for rail vehicle. This is basically how the ADA building standard would apply to these category of signs; in other words, a directional sign, a sign that tells you the elevator is down at the end of the hall, the toilet room is around the corner, the exit is in that direction with an arrow, Rooms 105-107 to the right, Rooms 108-110 go to the left with an arrow for those,38

those are directional. Those signs are treated as visual requirements only as far as the building standards are concerned. So that is basically an example. You can go through and say how do directional signs in rail vehicles stack up to that? Do you want to apply the same requirement? Do you want to apply a different requirement? Do you have specific directional signs that need to be tactile and some that can be just visual or some that should be visual and variable message? And then you want to sort of categorize them by rail type because not all types of sign or categories would apply to all the rail types. For example, a designation of a space, in other words, a specific space on a car is probably only going to apply to inner-city rail and high speed rail because those have separate types of spaces like dining cars, sleeping cars and toilet rooms. Whereas a Metro subway car, a rapid rail car has one big car with a bunch of seats and that is it. No specific space and none has to be specified in that particular

car. A table was sort of put out there as sort of taking the categories that we had sort of talked about in the list previously and then putting them in a39

table format. And then now you can sort of go through and say, "Okay, with directional signs in rail vehicles, what do we want to do and that is why this was basically put out." I put some designations, a letter designation for the different types of rail vehicles; rapid, light, commuter, inner-city, automatic guideways, high speed rail and tram. That was basically the purpose of the table, to sort of start as a basis for discussion of where you want to go with the various categories for sign, looking at the examples to sort of give you guidance about where you want to go with this. MR. MALDARI: Jim, I think this chart is really good and really helpful. Were you intending to have a chart filled out for each type of rail in case there are differences between the two? MR. PECHT: That is a level of complexity I think we can sort of get into when we start discussing it. If we get to a point we say, for this type of sign pretty much -- it applies to all rail types and that is fine. But if there are certain types of signs, you know, certain types of signs of this category apply to this type of rail type but don't apply to that type, then you may want to get into a more complex or40

detailed discussion at that point. I'm assuming that will happen. You'll go through and say, "Well, we need to have an exception for this type of rail type, this specific type of sign or we need to require something greater for this type of rail type." MR. MALDARI: I think that's great. The only thing that is maybe a little unclear to me is when you put in a requirement for a sign, that it has to meet these requirements, is it also a requirement that the sign exists or is the requirement if you have this sign then these requirements exist? MR. PECHT: Again, that may be part of the discussion that we have. In other words, there may be a requirement to have from other requirements, for exit signs for emergency purposes, that may be required by another regulation. But as far as access is concerned, it is being provided. Not obviously -- I say this in the building industry for building, if you have a janitor's closet and you don't want to put up a sign telling people it is a janitor's closet, that's fine. You can have a blank door with a lock on it and only the janitor knows because he's got the key, that's fine. If you choose to have a sign that says "janitor", you pick up41

accessibility requirements in the building world. You may or may not want to do that with certain signs. And I assume that is part of the discussion for rail vehicles, that these signs, unless you specify that they are required, it would be if provided this is what you do. MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good way to proceed. I think that's a good idea. And it matches what is already being done in the building code. I just wanted to be clear about it. If a sign is provided, this is how it has to be provided, not that it has to be provided. I think that is a good way to do it. Then we go through the list, like you said, and see if everyone is in agreement with what you wrote here and we can apply it for rail cars. And if a specific type of rapid rail, light rail or commuter rail is different, we can identify it or we can group them all together. I think we should go down this chart, if everyone else is clear on what the chart says and what we are trying to do. MR. CARLSON: With this category chart here, we are looking at replacing the X's here with the various designations of rail type, the RLCIA and HT? Are we looking to try to fill in these blank spaces with42

those kinds of designation to say that directional signs, for example, are required in all categories or just one category? Is that what we are looking to doing? MR. PECHT: However you want to do it. CHAIR PACHECO: That would seem a logical way to me. I think we also need to -- my other thought on it is that we also need to look to see if, yes, these are the requirements under the ADA but do we want to enhance -- are there any other changes we want to make to that. My first question, for instance, does the directional signage includes directional exit signs, for instance. That right now is only on visual. Do we also want to put that in as tactile? MR. CARLSON: So we put in X's for the category of information delivery and then in the last column of rail type, we put in whether it is required on that particular type of vehicle. CHAIR PACHECO: That would be sensible to me. How does the rest of the committee feel? MR. CARLSON: I am going to modify that and probably say it is probably better to put those designations in each of those categories because you might not want to have a particular type of delivery43

of information required for a particular mode of vehicle, if you follow that. Tactile might be everything, but one or designation signs for elements, I'm not quite sure what that means. But you might say that applies for tactile, visual, VMS, for three different categories but the others do not. Something of that nature. MR. PECHT: So you are proposing basically to do away with the last column and use the letter designations within the table itself?
MR. CARLSON: Yes. MR. PECHT: That is a fine way to do it as well. MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good idea, but you might want to add one more that says "all of them." Some of these might apply to all instead of listing all the letters. MR. CARLSON: You would put in an A for all. MR. MALDARI: A is for automated. I'm just saying -- that's fine. I'm just saying a lot of them will be for all. But it is a good point to have -- MR. CARLSON: We can write in "all." MR. MALDARI: That's okay. That's good too. MR. CARLSON: Some designation in there that says that all modes of vehicle types are required to have tactile and visual for exit signs or directional44

signs. And then later on, a particular sign would be assigned to a particular category. Like an exit sign is a directional sign but other signs might be directional signs but they also might be something else instead. MS. HAMLIN: I think this is a piece that -- I agree -- I like the idea, putting on the different rail cars and I think that makes a lot of sense, rather than having a different column. Here is another question. When you are looking at a directional sign, for example, I can imagine one directional sign that is visual messaging service or whatever it is called, and it has a point to the exit sign. I can also imagine a static sign that says -- it is static and one that is visual and tactile that says "exit that way." So I'm a little -- I'm wondering how we can drill down a little bit. Because I noticed -- I mean, under buildings, of course, there is no requirements for visual signs at all. So I understand why that is all blank. But if we are going to fill that in, we don't want every single directional sign to be either required or even, as you suggested, you could say if you are providing it, you provide it this

way.45

So I'm wondering how we get that in there, I guess is what I'm saying. MR. MALDARI: I'm thinking VMS signs are exactly what you are talking about, a variable message. It is almost a separate item because it can be providing any of the information provided above and that is almost a separate category in and of itself that is going to be treated differently. These to me are looking at static signs that are decals, for the most part, and then we can go through them. There are examples of each. The only way to handle it appropriately is to have it as a separate entity. Any information can be provided. It is going to be variable information. And any information you do provide in a variable message sign has to be provided to both. I think that is the way to do it without saying "this type of variable message sign and that type of variable message sign." If you have a variable message sign, you have to provide it in both means. MR. CARLSON: Maybe the VMS column should become one of the lines under category. MR. MALDARI: That is what I was thinking. MR. CARLSON: It is a type of sign and so you would say "all VMS must be visual and audible," but it46

would be very difficult to make it tactile. MS. HAMLIN: I think that makes sense, taking it out of -- because otherwise we would have to subcategorize because not every sign you want visual and tactile. But to make it a whole separate category of signage, that sounds like it makes sense to me. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think we just need to plan that whatever categories we are talking about and how we change this, that we take into account the future of technology changing. So while some things we may have not anticipated previously with directional signage being not static or decals, are now becoming tactile and we just need to incorporate that for the future. MS. HAMLIN: I think that makes sense too and maybe even we need a category -- and I don't know if we can do this for touchscreen. For example, as soon as you said touchscreen, I thought, "Oh, my God, we also need to make it visually accessible." Maybe we need two extra categories, not just the visual messaging sign, which we already have a definition for, but touchscreen and then we have to think of other kinds of electronic signage that can be produced in the future. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is all I was saying47

before. That is my concern with the list, is we are basing it on the history versus going forward and we are already seeing changes in signage in New York and I don't know what is going on in the country and that is what makes me nervous about these categories. I think the categories are static and they don't prepare us for the future of moving toward a more electronic user sign. MR. SLAUGHTER: I think the important thing to go along with what Janice said and everyone one else, I think there are some of these messages that no matter what wonderful things come down the road, they won't need that level of complexity. But we are on the cusp of a lot of new technology. We don't know what is going to be in a year or five or 10 years, but I think as part of this exercise, if we identify information that currently isn't appropriate for a static sign because it is changing information, it is not always the same at every moment or at every stop or every day. Or in the case of Amtrak, it is not the same for every route the train runs on. But if we can determine that that is information that needs to be provided and forget about the current versus the future technology -- and I don't mean discount it, but not trying to think what about it is48

going to be, but know that something is going to be different and available. But if we've already determine that some of this information needs to be provided in an electronic and for now visual format, that does not preclude that that system or the groundwork that you build into a vehicle or into the regulations or however we want to treat this, can't be updated to the latest technology. And I will use a very quick example. It is 100 percent relevant to signs. Amtrak, for example, had rail phone years ago when cellphones for individuals were a novelty or didn't exist at all and they were very complex, and, boy, they were cutting edge and we made money on them. Well, eventually they were eclipsed by cellphone technology and there are other things that we do on trains and we do in our every day lives that are eclipsed now by Smart Phones. We never 25 years ago would have said, "Wow, this will make all the investment we did on this phone irrelevant." But we knew the technology was changing and that it was never going to last but it was going to change and some things go away and some things get added. I think for the sake of moving us all forward so49

that as providers we are providing people the transportation and the information they need while they are with us -- and don't assume that everything is solved with a static sign. I don't think any of us believe that that is possible, if we are serious about accessibility. I wouldn't want us to get wrapped around the axle of what the technology is. If we can identify the things as we are working through this that really are critical to someone's ability to manage themselves on our vehicles, our system, then that leaves the door open for all the technology coming down the road, not just what we know of today. MR. PECHT: Let me sort of jump in and address two issues real quickly. Touchpads. You are getting into interactive use now and you are sort of moving away from signage. Signage to me is something that gives you information. You don't get to change it. When you start talking about touchpads, now you are talking about interactive kiosks, which is a whole different animal. And I think we want to stay away from those just for complexity sake. They can be addressed in the general communication requirements that we are going to talk about with other issues. But for signage I think you want to stay away from the50

touchpad issue. Secondly with regard to VMS, VMS is basically, if you will, a subcategory, a visual, visual signs. It just happens to be moveable, it moves. I would look at it from the standpoint -- take the first category, directional signs. You might want to say that "Where you provide for directional signs, they need to be visual if they are provided. If you choose to provide VMS these are the requirements for those." So you may want to put different types of rail issues or rail designations in both categories and sort of allow "If you do this with sort of a static on the wall print signs, this is what you do if you choose to use VMS, for this type of directional sign, this is what you do." And sort of leave it open like that. There are going to be some type of vehicles that are just not going to have this, like a tram. You are not going to have directional signage in a tram, really. But that is the way I would sort of attack this. MR. CARLSON: I think that the idea is we have categories of signage. Then after we define those categories, every sign gets, you know, assigned to one or more of those categories. There are thousands of signs. If you look at51

this list that we've got, there were dozens of examples of signs. And, of course, every day you can make up a new one. But when you look at it, for example, just picking out one of these, it says, "do not sit on bike rack." I don't know if you are going to have an audible sign that says "do not sit on the bike rack," but you might need to if it is a problem. Again, we need to say what type of sign that is, assign it to a category and once it is assigned to that category, you know what kind of mode of delivery you need to have. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is exactly what I was saying, which is why I needed to understand it. So thank you for saying that. MR. CARLSON: Well, you know, we can do that, but the problem is -- we can go through thousands of signs and categorize them. I don't think we are here to categorize signs. Some of the basic ones, yes, but not every possible combination of words is going to be able to do that. At some point in the future if someone makes up a sign, they are going to have to decide what kind of sign is it and therefore decide what delivery mode of all the modes that are going to be required. And, of course, this is going to be working backwards because52

you are already going to know what kind of vehicle it is. So you are going to look at a commuter rail operation and say, "I need to put up a sign. What do I need to do in order to make it accessible, according to the code and these regulations?" So at some point you are going to need to know that it is a variable message sign, therefore it has audio and visual components to it. If it is a sign that says -- you know, direction sign or a menu, you are not going to have menus and directory kind of things on a commuter rail operation. But every sign will need to be assigned to a category at some point. But I don't think that we can begin to do that with all the possible signs. But we need to identify the category of signs and what they mean and examples -- not every possible combination of signs that would fit into that category -- in order to get some understanding about what we are talking about. Just as an example, I don't understand exactly what a designation sign for element would be. I mean, when I think "elements" I'm thinking of lead, gold, iron, copper, things like that. But, you know, there are other kinds of elements, of course, but I'm not sure what type of elements we are talking about in a rail operation.53

MR. PECHT: I can explain that, what I was thinking when we get to that, if you want. MR. CARLSON: Yeah. Just generally speaking, we need to define these particular categories so that when someone is just reading it in the very robust codes that are going to come out of it, they can say, "Oh, yeah, that is an element and I can identify all the other possibilities of what I think of as an element." MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That was all I was saying. I also read it the same way. I don't know what -- that is actually funny you mentioned it because that was one of the words I was stuck on, what was element, I don't know. I don't know how we do this and I think photographs and some audio description for people who are blind and visually impaired. I need to see a photo of this so I fully understand what the sign is. Because even with the word description, my definition of what a sign is -- and I agree whoever said, I don't need the sign for "don't put your feet here" unless we see it is a problem and I hope then we don't have so much audio overload. But my concern is there are some signs that really can transcend into two categories, both appears to be called the stagnate sign category but it can54

also change. I think maybe if we show some photos, then it would allow us, for people who use photos -- not for the people who don't -- to understand what is happening. And I think, you know, while we are doling with disabilities, I think it is important that while one disability may not be able to use something, we are also appreciative of people who don't have that disability of needing that other type of access and we don't preclude one for the other. And I don't know how we get to that step, but I use visual. CHAIR PACHECO: Jim, could you tell us what you meant by "elements"? MR. PECHT: I was thinking in terms of your auto rail car, on the wall there is a door with a handle and there is a sign on that that says "fire extinguisher." That is a designation of an element. Now, you can call it a label and say it is not a sign or you can call it a sign and say it is a designation of an element. Either way, that is what I was thinking. MR. SLAUGHTER: When I look at some of those things, for example, because of the nature of rail cars -- and Amtrak is in the unenviable position of having lots of different kinds of services. But where55

we have things in restrooms and bedrooms and things, quite often an item that is maybe commonly in one place in a building, we may have to put somewhere that is a little different. So we identify things like soap and paper towels. And in some of our cars where it is not obvious, we have gone the step of making it a tactile sign because it may not be at all readily apparent by the shape of things or any normalcy compared to buildings, where things are. So we try to bridge the gap there. In other places we may have things where it is perfectly logical, the sink is here, the paper towels are here, the soap is here. So you wouldn't need that level of description. For us, honestly, regardless of what comes out of the committee, we will always have to look at some of those things and make sure we fill in the gaps of information. So we may choose to do things that are not required by the law as we move forward. I think we need to lay down the minimums or maybe the ideal and go from there. So that is the kind of thing I think of as an element, along with other devices that are not emergency related. They are just sort of in a weird place that maybe doesn't exist on buildings.56

MR. PECHT: Yeah, it's up to the committee about how they want to tackle the different types of signs and how they want to make the requirements. Brings up another issue. Maybe do you want everything cast in stone or do you want to give people a little leeway with what you're doing. In other words, menus and directories are not really covered at all and they are actually exempted in the building standard because they have a tendency to change, they have a tendency to be large or very small and can't be made large. So it may be that you want to require the menus and directories part to be visual to the extent practical. In other words, you give them at least a little something. You don't say maybe directional signs has to be like this, period, done. Menus because of the nature of them, you meet the visual requirements to the extent practicable. So there are various ways of attacking this and looking at it. The category is there. You can sort of say it's a good idea, it's a bad idea, let's throw it out. It was put out for discussion. CHAIR PACHECO: I think it has gone -- I think we all feel that what you did was very helpful and it is a good place for us to jump off from. MR. PECHT: So would you like to start with the57

first category directional signs and talk about it? MR. MALDARI: I think that would be a good idea. And if anybody is unclear about a particular type of sign applies to that category or not, that would be a good time to talk about it before we decide how it is going to be displayed. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Can we discuss some examples of -- I'm looking at the list and I'm not really clear when you say "directional sign" what that means. Because if it is the word "exit," from a hearing perspective it doesn't need to be audible. By the way, I don't know what VMS means at the top of the category. MR. PECHT: Variable message sign. Those are the electronic signs that move. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Okay, but there is no category here. If there is a tactile and visual and visual there is nothing for audible in the categories. I think we need to add an additional column for audible. And I don't know if you want a separate column for the word "induction loop." It goes in, but as a perspective consideration for that. But if it is a directional sign in terms of "get off at the back door for this stop," because I know on Amtrak some doors open for some stations and some open58

for other stations, then that has to be audible. I'm not clear what type of sign that is. MS. HAMLIN: Can I offer a suggestion? I'm thinking that maybe what the problem is is that we have a bunch of categories -- what we really want to do is look at it in two different ways. We want to look at the static signs and we want to look at dynamic signs. I think we want to take the same list and look at dynamic signs. So what I would suggest is maybe we should put at the top "static signs" and then go down this list. And maybe we should do that now for the people who are already real clear, some of the people who are clear, but I agree with somebody to maybe get an example on that. And then give us a chance and send those visuals to the people here with hearing loss or if you want to do it for the whole group, if we can somehow do it -- I don't know how to get a hold of visual description. And then have a separate meeting, just look at dynamic signs. MR. PECHT: I'm going to tell you right now you are going to have to send it to everybody and it is going to have to be accessible to everybody. MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, can you define "accessible"? Okay. Let's say there was an exit sign with an arrow59

on it, would that be a verbal description of that sign?MR. PECHT: Yes. It's basically a text descriptor, an all text or all tag or it is a verbal audible descriptor. MR. SLAUGHTER: Okay. MR. CARLSON: I would suggest in order to put the categories together in that top column there that we take the column that says "rail type" and change that to "audible." If we are going to put letters in the other columns we don't need rail type there and "audible" would be the category of sign, directional sign, does or doesn't need to be audible. CHAIR PACHECO: Actually, I was going to make the same suggestion only with the VMS because we talked about that making a line. But I think you are right, I think we should have -- audible absolutely should be up there. MR. CARLSON: I would ask the question does "audible" automatically require induction loop or is that something that could be one or the other but not necessarily both? MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think we should separate it because there may be a time where we want to separate it and I'm not sure yet. And I think it will60

allow us to have that room to make a decision. MR. CARLSON: Okay. I would agree with that. So I would say take the column of "VMS" and change it to "induction loop" and put a row in that says "variable message signs." MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I would suggest we just put "induction loop" and maybe "audible" and "induction loop," those two columns next to each other so we can quickly see which we are putting and which we are not. MR. CARLSON: Okay. Move "not required" to the far right -- MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Exactly. My whole thing is keeping it organized so we know where we stop and

start. MR. CARLSON: I would agree with that. Anybody else?MR. MALDARI: I think the VMS as a new category is a good thing. What I'm getting a little bit confused about is, it seems very clear what about a variable message sign, you want to have an audio and visual component of it. That seems, you know, pretty straightforward that when the message is changing you need to provide it in both modes. What is confusing, I guess to me, when we look61

through this list, most of these are static signs. I know Blair said before, there may be a few static signs in here that shouldn't just be static and that's

true. But I think somebody mentioned it before, if we had a list for static signs and had a separate list for VMS signs, it may be a better way of separating the two. Because one clearly lends itself to audio and visual and the other one doesn't. And maybe you take some out of the static and you have to put them in the dynamic. But having the two categories separate, it seems to me, it makes it a lot easier to understand how to categorize the types of signs you are going to put on and the information you are going to provide. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I agree with that. My only concern is there seems to be a recent shift that I'm noticing in New York. I don't know what is going on in the country, where you are having directional signs that are becoming, I guess you call them VMS signs that maybe previously were not. Maybe static in some parts of the country, but VMS in other parts of the country. And my concern is maybe falling between the cracks there and making sure that we don't lose signs there.62

And that's when a -- I don't know how to manage that and that is where, you know -- that is why I want to go through the categories and I understand someone explaining this to me so that -- I can read this list and I can go through as we are on the phone because I did only receive the list five minutes prior. For example, there are some of the signs that are not clear to me which -- like "emergency only, push to talk." Does that say "emergency only push to talk," there is something -- that is not a great example. I'm not clear on some of these signs. If they don't say the word "prerecorded" or "audible" or something, I don't know if they should be going forward. I wish I was more knowledgeable on the rail sign situation. That is why for me I thought having a photograph -- and I understand how that impacts the visual impairment -- people who use visual impairments, but I need to see a photograph of what people are talking about because I'm not sure if we are comparing apples and oranges. I may think one thing and somebody may think another thing and when I see it I may say, "Oh, okay, that is a no-brainer." MR. SLAUGHTER: For the sake of time and having a discussion about changing some of the designations and columns and things like that, would it be worthwhile63

if we stepped out through the list -- I'm going the make a wild stab here and say that Amtrak probably has more signs than anybody else. And if we go down through the list -- and I'm glad to read through the list and give you what I think that sign is and give you a real world idea what that is and if it is not understood or maybe is too narrow, I'll try to expand on it or maybe someone else can. And then we say, "Yeah, that information, really there is no use to present it in any other format" or just for the sake of going through and maybe explaining some of these things. Would that be worthwhile at all? CHAIR PACHECO: I think it would be very helpful. MR. SLAUGHTER: All right. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is what I was asking for from the beginning so for me, yes. MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm going to make a broad statement here. I think we all agree a whole lot more than we know. And I'm going to leave it at that and I think everyone really wants to do a better job here. With that said, I will start with the first one, directional signs. I would consider a directional sign -- and it says includes exit sign -- as anything that points you in a direction of an existing thing, like a door or a restroom or something that is not64

going to move or change, so you know where those things are. MR. MALDARI: But that is pointing you in a direction to distinguish it from the destination sign. MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes, it is. It is pointing you in a direction. The exit with an arrow would be a directional sign. But exit as a static sign would be a destination sign. MR. PECHT: There are two types of exit signs I put in here. One is a directional, "exit that way" with an arrow or "the exit is located at the end of the car," or "the emergency exit window is in the middle of the car." Those are things telling you direction to go find stuff, as opposed to you are at the door, you are at the exit, there is a sign that says "exit, this is it." That is a destination. Does that clarify it?
MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes. MR. MALDARI: That is very good. The parenthesis help. I was trying to figure it out. I just wanted to clarify. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Extraordinarily helpful.

<<<: MR. SLAUGHTER: Does anyone think that that needs65

to be more than visual? CHAIR PACHECO: It certainly may need to be, depending on the type of vehicle. MS. HAMLIN: Sometimes, for example, if you have a VMS and it is an emergency and they have the capability of saying "go out the exit this way," in other words, have the little pointing sign that says instead of exiting on the right, you exit on the left. So it could be both visual and audible at that point. MR. SLAUGHTER: Say we don't move the VMS column but we, if we went to the VMS column, would we put that in where used or if used it would also -- you would have a VMS -- if there is a VMS system on the train, do you include that information as part of the system? MR. MALDARI: I think that is why breaking up VMS as a separate category is important. Because if you are doing a variable message, you are providing it visually and you also want to provide it audibly. So you should be able to do that or you can at least try to do that. But when you have a static sign, it is very hard, if you think about it, to make an arrow on an exit sign an audible message to anybody because it is dependent upon where you are. So how could you do that?66

So that is why I'm saying, the VMS is a separate category and when you are able to provide a variable message, I would think you would want to provide it in both modes, audible and visual. And it seems reasonable you could do that. MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes. There are going to be some situations where it is going to be -- depending on the rail type, that is going to be more relevant than others. Rail modes are going to include, as time goes forward, if we don't already, a lot of that sort of information about moving people on and off vehicles as quickly and safely as possible. In some cases with, say, a long distance train that may be not as -- may be a sign that is used only once in a great while. May not always be applicable to each mode. MR. MALDARI: One of the things we run into with VMS signs is when you have quick station stops, you can only provide so much information. I mean, if you are trying to provide a lot of information you can provide it in text quicker than you can provide it in speech. You try to do as much as you can, but you have to be flexible in the way you are specifying it to allow some opportunity to have some variation in that, otherwise you lock someone into doing it a67

certain way and you can't do it at all. Getting back to what we were talking about, directional signs, from the point of view of visual, I think, in my opinion, it is hard to do it any other way as a static sign. Even trying to envision it, I can't. But if somebody has an idea of how you can provide an arrow with an exit sign audibly, I would like to hear it because I don't see how it can be done. MR. HOFF: I have an idea. For some of the signs that are simplistic and really just give orientation type direction, as Jim Pecht earlier mentioned, as to where the exits are, where the bathrooms are, just a general orientation, there may be various means in which that information is communicated. It could be by a rail crew member if you need orientation or if you like to explain how the car is laid out, for pressure signal I will come over and explain it or it could be an auxillary audible system on board one can tap into by various means and we talked about it in an earlier meeting. So I agree with Frank, it is very difficult to say where I'm going to put a directional sign, to give that kind of information, but perhaps we do it audibly or in ways we have not previously done.68

CHAIR PACHECO: One of the things, we may not want to use it very often, but there are other methods of making a sign audible that is audible locator tones, like are used on accessible pedestrian signals now where there is a ticking sound to let you know that this is where you press the button for the pedestrian access. That type of thing is a possibility in some situations too. MR. CARLSON: You know, a couple of technologies that have not really fully been implemented, but have been fully tested, one system is called "Talking Signs." It uses an analog infrared signal that needs a receiver, but it is highly directional and a person who is blind can use that and point it at the sign and get the information off of it as they walk by and it is a remote sensing system. It has never been required anywhere, but a number of places have done it and I have watched people navigate through multi-level rail stations utilizing this system and being able to find everything there is. One of the biggest interesting things that a participant said, "I never knew that there was a phone booth down here" until he happened to notice it when he scanned across and found that there was a phone booth in the distance.69

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm just confused. How would you distribute a device like that to somebody in a rail station that is in a transient setting? MR. CARLSON: Well, this is one of the reasons why it has never been required before, but people -- you know, in the early days a few people had cellphones and none of them had screens on them. Now just about everyone of them does. So it would have to be something that the participant, the person who needs it would need to get the device from the transit system and utilize it. If they are going to be in a commuter setting, they would keep it. If they operate running with a single trip -- you need some training in how to use it as of today. But 10 years from now people who are blind may have that as a standard piece of equipment as of just one of their many ways of getting that information. CHAIR PACHECO: We have actually been using those in some of the national conventions of blind people for a dozen years now. Ward Bond usually comes and demonstrates it and people do use it for a long time. That is another one. I guess the point we are getting at is there are a multitude of ways of doing some of these things. If there is enough interest in it, perhaps we70

could plan a presentation or two on some of the alternatives that we could come up with for signage in general. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: While that may work in a theater type setting and we see infrared systems in Broadway shows, in transient settings it's impossible. My understanding of the ADA, you can't require people to bring devices with them. People don't have the room to carry devices with them. They don't always know they are going to be in the place where they end up. That is why movie theaters are required -- because technically you can bring your infrared device to a movie theater, but, let's say your friend says, "Hey, let's go to the movie," what are you supposed to say, "Oh, I forgot my device"? And you can't do it in a transient setting. Infrared does not work in transient settings whatsoever and that is why it has not taking -- it doesn't work in a transient setting. There is a question also whether people who are not visually impaired, the difference also between people who are visually impaired or blind versus people who are hard of hearing, you know, people who are hard of hearing are already wearing devices on their ears and receivers and that's why they prefer71

induction loops because they don't want to wear an additional device. The people who are blind and visually impaired are not wearing hearing aids, they don't have receivers, therefore they need to wear a receiver. So there is some conflict there on that topic because of that. But you can't require people to bring -- I'm pretty sure it violates the ADA. CHAIR PACHECO: The thing is you wouldn't need to require it -- that is what I was saying -- in specific instances. Perhaps it might be something that would be helpful in a sleeping car on an Amtrak train for the various features and services in the sleeping car. I don't know. I'm just thinking that is a possibility where Amtrak could provide it for someone using one of those facilities. MR. SLAUGHTER: Terry, currently Amtrak is working on an onboard information system that we haven't even defined all the capabilities we are expecting of it because we know -- we are trying to plant a foundation for lots of expandability and flexibility over time. One of the things we talked about is delivering information on demand to folks from that system. So maybe you can have an audible description -- and I will give an example.72

If the car attendant shows you to your room and gives you a description of the room and they will do that, but if most folks' memory is anything like mine, five minutes later I'm going, "Where did he say this was?" And this is where we are thinking, well, if we have audible information that replicates the visual information because we have information cards for the rooms and other signs and things, that you have that. You can call on it anytime. We don't have that today but we certainly anticipate in the future we will have the ability to provide those kinds of things. MR. PECHT: I'm hoping you will -- the committee will keep that in mind as they go through this. There are other technologies that can provide information, web-based, Smart Phones, that will have nothing to do with signs but do a good job of getting information to people. I would like to hope we sort of concentrate on the sign part of it, which is what the subcommittee is about. But understand that maybe a sign in a certain manner in a certain thing is not necessary because it can be provided in another format. It may be we want to look at general communication stuff, but maybe not in signage. MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, to that point if we consider a directional sign, for example, if you go downstairs73

in one of our sleeping cars, it is bilevel and there is a sign on the wall that points to Rooms A-D and it points in the other direction to Rooms 5, 6, 7 and 8 or something or restrooms. Right now that sign, oddly enough, is not braille, is not tactile, it is just a flat sign. Now, in my way of thinking, that is a sign -- and it is my railroad. That is a sign that would be beneficial to be tactile as well as visual, and it is a directional sign, it is pointing you to an element. It is not the place itself but it is guiding you the right way. Like a hotel, you go to the right wing of the hotel instead of the wrong wing. MR. PECHT: This goes back to how do you find it if it is tactile. My thinking is if you are going to require something to be tactile, you can require it to be tactile, you can require it to have braille but you are also going to have to require it to be in a specific location. MR. SLAUGHTER: Right. MR. PECHT: You have to specify that location. It's always going to have to be to the right of the entrance door or just inside the car or it is always going to be next to the door for the toilet room. You74

have to specify specifically where that sign is going to be. Otherwise if it is not in a consistent location, if you just allow people to put it up wherever they want to, you are not going to find it. MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, I'm with you there. And, of course, then you get back into the oddities of the railroad. There'll be situations where there is no wall to the right of the restroom door because of how it is configured. MR. PECHT: Exactly. MR. SLAUGHTER: Now it is a transverse wall instead of a wall that is in the same plane as the door. So, yeah, I mean, that is part of what makes the business as difficult as it is. That is why we can't go out to the sign stores and buy the same signs you use in a building. Everything we do is unique and

custom. But I say that because everything we do is unique and custom, it gives us a lot of leeway to make things differently than you would in a building. So there is part of me that would really like to have some sort of optional on the tactile and visual on some of these signs. And, I don't know, maybe it is best, again, if we just leave things -- if the group thinks something is okay visual, that's fine.75

And, again, if we make a decision determining we want to do something more, I guess that is okay too. MR. MALDARI: In line with what Blair is saying, I agree. The point you want to make you need to have a minimal level that has to be tactile. You can have the other ones. When you can make them, you will. The ones that have to be, that is where you need to identify where they are, otherwise they are not going to be found. As he points out, if there is a sign and we can make it tactile and it makes sense, we will do it in the hope someone will find it but it is not required to be. Because a singular location is not always available for that equipment. When I look at a rail car it seems obvious you should have a tactile sign for the bathroom because you need to be able to find that. And you can have the sign, thinking only on our car, within two or three areas that should be applicable around the different fleets. So you give three options for location, but still require it to be tactile. There are others where you are not really sure you can make a tactile sign fit in the space available. When we get to the next one, which is where the tactile comes up, any ones that are specifically76

required, we need to identify maybe one or two locations so that there is some flexibility, but it has to be an identified location. MR. SLAUGHTER: So are we okay to leave the first one, directional signs, as visual only for now and step to the next one? CHAIR PACHECO: I would like to see us have tactile and visual on that, especially for finding locations. You know, I'm thinking particularly like your example of Rooms 1-4 at one end and the restrooms are at the other end, that is pretty important information to somebody, or that the cafe car is the next one up or this is the quiet car or what have you on the other ones. Depending on somebody to always tell you what something says visually, first of all, is not a good practice, secondly, is highly unlikely and, thirdly, is extremely demeaning in it just totally does away -- it does so much damage to anyone's sense of independence. MR. SLAUGHTER: And I was just going to say, the key here for any signs, regardless of any one person's situation, is to communicate the information so people can utilize the vehicles and the service. To your point, having to ask about something77

takes away from your independence. And I think, again, that is a key element here and that is for

everyone. I have been on trains and watched people who are not blind but (inaudible) pushing everything you could imagine on the end door of the car to try to make the door open, except the device that had the sign on it that said "press." And they pressed everything on that door except that button. So it is -- and I sat there and watched it and I said I missed something here. Somehow I managed to put -- that sign is wrong. What can I do to make that better. I would agree with that generally. If there is a sign that is a fixed sign and it is pointing toward something that is not moving, like where the restroom is or where a sleeping compartment is, I think that is a critical way-finding element, at least it is on my trains. I don't want to speak for the commuter agencies. As cars get bigger and smaller some of those things become less relevant. MR. MALDARI: As far as directional signs, we don't have a directional sign that says where the bathroom is, other than a sign on the bathroom door.78

And the only other directional sign that I'm thinking of is the exit signs. And for me it is kind of hard to envision how that is going to work if you can't find them. Because we have some that are on the ceiling pointing toward the window. We have others that are down near floor level in case of a smoke condition. So, you know, if you require them all to be made that way, that is the thing -- there are applications where you may be able to do it and it may make sense and there are other applications where it doesn't make

sense. If you require them all to be done tactile, then you are creating a problem. The sign from the ceiling now has to be significantly bigger to make all the requirements and now it gets in the way of the person walking through. Right now it is a very small compact sign. MR. SLAUGHTER: To that point, some of the signs that you mentioned like that exit sign that is at the ceiling, comes at another level of requirement from the FRA or through APTA. And really the way it was defined, I don't think gave any real consideration for accessibility. The exit sign (inaudible) are indoors, actual79

door that is the exit into another space or to the outside is a large tactile sign. Tactile in raised letters and in braille. MR. MALDARI: That sign makes sense to me and that is the other thing I was thinking about. That sounds like a good -- we should identify where it needs to be so it is easier to find and give some allowance considering we have rather large windows on our side doors and some other equipment has smaller windows. If you give it a range of location -- this is the other thing I was thinking about. Sometimes we have exit signs on the side walls adjacent to the side doors but when you find a sign that says "exit," you expect to go in the direction of the sign, not 90-degrees from the sign, I would think. That's why I'm thinking an exit sign on the door, you are going to go through the sign to exit. That would be one where having a braille and raised lettering makes sense, whereas one on the side wall might be confusing. CHAIR PACHECO: Does your one on the side wall have an arrow?

MR. MALDARI: No. CHAIR PACHECO: Then why isn't it confusing to80

someone who sees it? MR. MALDARI: Because you see the door is directly adjacent to it. CHAIR PACHECO: Oh, okay. All right. But we could potentially be talking about a location issue. MR. MALDARI: That is why I say put an exit sign on a side door and have raised lettering in braille and that is where you put it. That should be good for everybody. Somebody puts additional signs on the wall, that should be okay too. That is what I'm saying. If you make the minimum requirement that there is a designation of an exit and you do it in this manner, then you can always add more, but at least the person has information that they need. CHAIR PACHECO: I believe that is kind of where we are going with relatively minimal requirements. At some point I'm going to talk about -- perhaps further down the road, talk about some best practices which might be where something like that would come into -- I hate to break this up because I think we are doing some really positive -- and I wish we could stay on for two more hours and I know some people would want to shoot me for saying that, probably. But it is getting on a bit and we do have a couple of more81

things we just got to take care of before the gong goes off at 3:00. One of which is now that we have got ourselves moving in a good direction, I would like to propose that we all do a little bit of homework and take the chart and the list and the thoughts that we have from this, put your own thoughts together, be it on the -- preferably on the chart that Jim has given us, with notes you have and send them in and let us all look at them and see where we can go so we can really get a lot of this accomplished in the next meeting. Which brings me to the point we need to schedule another meeting for this committee. MR. PECHT: Terry, before we go to that, can we ask for public comment at this time. CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. I reversed and I was going to do it afterward. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Before we get to public comment, can I respond to what she just said. I would love to provide input and I share what Lise said in terms of audible, but I do need photographs of what we are talking about and I need to understand what we are talking about because I don't know the differences between these signs and seeing the words for me is meaningless. Not trying to be difficult. I would82

just like some visual representation of what these signs -- I don't know what they are. I'm not in the sign business. MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm going to try to do us all a favor. At the next meeting time at the halfway point, I will provide (inaudible) -- Terry, tell me if this is okay. I will provide a visual sample of a sign and a written description of that sign that I am fine to have distributed. It will be an Amtrak sign. It will be one that applies to each of these categories that I have access to a sign. Is that okay? I think that might be a good step forward. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think that would be (inaudible) and I appreciate you taking the time to do that. Thank you. MR. SLAUGHTER: I will say this. I probably don't have the time but I will find someone here who does. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Thank you for having the staff who will do it, the intern who will do that. MR. SLAUGHTER: Well, we don't have any. We are all up to our eyeballs in stuff, I understand. But I think that for the sake of moving forward, it would be a worthwhile exercise and I would obligate to have that at the halfway point between now and whenever we83

establish the next meeting, as long as it is not Monday. CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, ever so much, Blair. And if I can give you a hand with it, since I do alternate formats and stuff, I would be more than happy to. MR. SLAUGHTER: I would love you to be my checker to make sure I have done the right thing. CHAIR PACHECO: I will do that. Jim, who said -- you want to do public comments

next. MR. PECHT: I think it is probably a good idea. CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Do we have anyone with us who does want to make any comments from the general public this afternoon? Going once. No one on the (inaudible). Hearing none then I guess we will move along to a suggested date for our next session. Does Thursday seem to be working well for folks? Is that the consensus of the group? MR. MALDARI: Thursday has worked good, I think, except for all the fact that all of March is booked with the other subcommittees. CHAIR PACHECO: I don't think the 7th or 14th

are.84

MR. PECHT: 14th is Friday. MR. MALDARI: I think the Thursday format is a good -- CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. I looked at my calendar wrong. It was six and 13. I'm sorry. MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: This works for Janice, if it work for everybody else. MR. CARLSON: Works for me. MR. MALDARI: Should depend on Blair pulling the visual formats. We can't ask for something complicated and give him a short lead. CHAIR PACHECO: That is why I'm thinking of the 13th. MR. SLAUGHTER: I would look for the 13th myself. CHAIR PACHECO: Does the Access Board have any issue with the 13th? MR. PECHT: I don't. CHAIR PACHECO: Hearing none. Then why don't we schedule the next conference call for March 13. Same time and station. Time and station? I'm doing well. Again 1:00 to 3:00 and I'm sure Paul will be in touch with all of us about the arrangements for it. I would just like to take a minute and thank everyone. I'm sorry if people felt that I went over the top, I guess. It is one of those85

positive/negatives, negative/positives that does tend to happen sometimes with advocates, maybe a little more so because issues are things that we live with on a daily basis. I'm glad that we have gotten as far as we have this afternoon. I think we have all had a chance to air a lot of what we needed to and I just want to thank you all and if anyone is offended I do apologize for that. But other than that, I thank you all and hope you all have a great couple of weeks. And, Blair, I will definitely be in touch with you and the other people I was supposed to work with on our sub subcommittee. I will definitely be in touch with you probably over the weekend. And thank you all, very much, for a very productive meeting. <<<: Thank you. <<<: Thank you. <<<: Thank you. MS. SESKER: This concludes our meeting. Please disconnect all lines.

(Whereupon, at 2:58 p.m. the meeting was adjourned)