## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC

COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONING

WORKING GROUP MEETING

May 11, 2015 2111 Wilson Boulevard 9:00 a.m.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Edward Bantle 3 James Battaglia 4 John Cymbalsky 5 Pete Cochran 6 Katie Coughlin 7 Adam Darmington 8 Andrew deLaski 9 Paul Doppel 10 Eileen Hoffman 11 Jill Hootman 12 Long Huang 13 Marshall Hunt 14 Richard Lord 15 Michael McCabe 16 Karen Meyers 17 Nick Mislak 18 Greg Rosenquist 19 Harvey Sachs 20 Michael Shows – via telephone 21 Louis Starr 22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 Eric Stas 3 Mark Terzigni 4 Rusty Tharp 5 Meg Waltner – via telephone 6 Detlef Westphanen 7 Robert Whitwell 8 Alison Williams 9 Dave Winningham 10 Xing Xu 11 Sami Zendah 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Good morning 3 everyone. This is Ted Bantle from FMCS. I thank 4 you all for meeting with us today, and then for 5 those of you who walked here, thank you for getting 6 here already. 7 So the first thing we'd like to do just 8 to get started is a quick attendance. So we will 9 go around the table and then we'll do the back 10 table and then we'll do the public and finally 11 we'll do the people online. I believe we do have 12 forum, but we will double-check that before we get 13 started. 14 So Ted Bantle with FMCS. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: And Eileen Barkas Hoffman, 16 your co-facilitator, on the record now. 17 And to my left... 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 19 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E California 20 IOU. 21 MR. DOPPLE: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi 22 Electric.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, HRI. 2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 3 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Lennox 5 International. 6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 8 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance 9 Standards Awareness Project. 10 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah of Emerson. 11 MR. COCHRAN: Pete Cochran, DOE. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 14 MR. WESTPHANEN: Detlef Westphanen, 15 Navigant Consulting. 16 MR. DARMINGTON: Adam Darmington, 17 Navigant. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, LBNL. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, LBNL. 20 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant. 21 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, Ingersoll 22 Rand.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 MR. BANTLE: Let it be reported that 2 Karen Meyers is here and has stepped out for a call 3 or something. 4 MALE SPEAKER: We also have Meg Waltner 5 and Michael Shows on the webinar. So that gives us 6 our forum based on those numbers. 7 MR. BANTLE: Thank you. Any questions 8 before we get started? I know we did send out the 9 ground rules on the break. 10 Any questions on the ground rules? Any 11 comments? 12 MALE SPEAKER: Was (inaudible) considered 13 in the ground rules? 14 MALE SPEAKER: I think it will be as of 15 today. 16 MR. deLASKI: I just skimmed them. I did 17 notice one thing, this is Andrew, is that it says 18 that this result in a NOPR or would result in a 19 NOPR. 20 I think at the last meeting we had 21 acknowledged there already is a NOPR, so what this 22 would result in is potentially a supplemental

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 (inaudible) or potentially even a final rule, 2 (inaudible). So that just caught my eye something 3 is not consistent with our conversation. 4 MS. HOFFMAN: We can make that change. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll make that edit. 6 Also, I sent around the alternates' list as an 7 attachment to the ground rules and Meg Waltner has 8 today included an alternate for her, so I just want 9 to make sure everybody knows that since Meg will 10 not be here June 1st and 2nd, Alex Hilbrand will be 11 her alternate, just so that everybody knows. 12 So about here, we have the (inaudible) 13 summary slide for the ground rules. Andrew pointed 14 out one issue we'll need to fix. 15 Anybody else or do you author the ground 16 rules? 17 (No response.) 18 Then the next slide is talking about the 19 topics we plan to cover. I think we already know 20 what we need to do here. We've gone back after the 21 last set of meetings and sharpened our pencils a 22 little bit. We also set aside the first part of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 this meeting to talk about the furnaces part of the 2 rule. That didn't get much attention last time, so 3 that's what we'll kick off with today. 4 Here's our tentative schedule for our 5 meeting dates. We did discuss whether or not to 6 have some webinars thrown in. I know we didn't get 7 to that last time in terms of scheduling 8 (inaudible), but again as we go, we can pencil 9 those in at (inaudible). 10 Any questions about the schedules? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Are these going to be 12 provided to us somehow with a SharePoint? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Or email. I think the 14 email's been working better for everybody, so... 15 We have a small enough group where I 16 think going through all the SharePoint hoopla might 17 not be worth it, so we'll get this out to 18 everybody. 19 MR. deLASKI: Did we decide on start and 20 end times? I'm just trying to book flights. I know 21 Jill had asked for a 4:00 p.m. end time and -- on 22 the second time and whether we're going to do that

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 or not. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We discussed that a 3 little bit. I think the initial plan was to start 4 doing 9:00 to 5:00 the first day and then a 9:00 to 5 3:00 or 4:00, depending what the group feels they 6 can do. I open to anything. I'm local. 7 MR. STARR: Why don't -- 8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Your name, please. 9 MR. STARR: Oh, Louis Starr. How about 10 8:00 for the second day to whenever? 11 MALE SPEAKER: 8:00 to 3:00; is that 12 good? 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that would be 14 good. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Does that include 16 tomorrow? Everyone's got to go through Roslin no 17 matter what time. 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can we do consensus -- 19 let's see we have a consensus on that. 8:00 to 20 3:00 for the second date? 21 MALE SPEAKER: Yep. 22 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible sentence.)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 MALE SPEAKER: Although, remember 2 tomorrow we are over in Roslin. 3 (Simultaneous talking.) 4 MS. HOOTMAN: But the future meetings 5 were all here; right? 6 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we'll -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm getting them confused 8 with... 9 MR. BANTLE: So we're going to do 9:00 to 10 5:00, 8:00 to 3:00. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Anything else, process, 12 procedures, questions before we fire up the 13 (inaudible)? 14 Calling Adam up to the podiuma -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: John, sorry, Bob Whitwell. 16 So we have Dick here -- Dick Lord here 17 today, so I think we want to make sure that we talk 18 about the building modeling stuff. 19 MALE SPEAKER: I think the furnace will 20 be pretty quick and we'll get that out of the way. 21 MR. LORD: I can probably make it 22 tomorrow afternoon. I have to give this talk in

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 the morning. 2 MALE SPEAKER: I think we'll (inaudible.) 3 MR. WESTPHANEN: Good morning. Adam 4 Westphalen from Navigant. I'll talk through some 5 of the commercial furnace analysis and issues. 6 Just a quick refresher, (inaudible), 7 engineering analysis the assumptions were that the 8 primary (inaudible) options to go from baseline 80 9 percent for more efficiency to 81 and 18 percent 10 would be an increase (inaudible) service area. And 11 then for next 92 percent thermal efficiency, you 12 would add a secondary (inaudible). 13 Just another quick refresher: These were 14 the result of engineering analysis for the gas fire 15 commercial furnaces (inaudible), so you can see 16 it's relatively flat across (inaudible) levels and 17 then shoots up to go to condensing there. Oil/fire 18 similar trend (speaking under breath). 19 So I guess this brings us to some sort of 20 need of (inaudible) we want to talk about the 21 engineering. We got a lot of really good comments 22 back in response to the NOPR. So right now we're

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 considering the analysis changes that we're going 2 to making. I just wanted to present some of these 3 comments and where we're at right now for the 4 group. 5 So the first thing, first quote on the 6 side, talks about the (inaudible) material, and 7 this is key, especially at 82 percent thermal 8 efficiency. A lot of feedback we got was to 9 maintain the reliability, durability of the current 10 designs, 82 percent would have to be designed to 11 handle some condensate. So that would include 12 changing (inaudible) materials, possibly switching 13 out the inducer fan and possible including some 14 condensate management components. 15 So that's currently on the table for the 16 engineering analysis. I think we are assessing 17 that and looking at potentially including more 18 corrosion-resistant materials. 19 So if there's agreement that that should 20 be implemented, some key questions that I kind of 21 had were more for manufacturers, are what types of 22 corrosion-resistant material, like exactly what

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 grades of stainless steel are we getting into; 2 would 409 do it? 3 I think we've seen in some spec sheets 4 that 409 is an option and 321 is an option. What 5 percentage of models would need that; would that be 6 implemented on every single model that you guys 7 offer or would you potentially still sell the 8 aluminized steel for installations where 9 condensation is not going to be an issue? 10 So those are some of the questions that 11 we're kind of grappling with right now, if anyone 12 cares to (inaudible) topic. 13 Then the next thing on the slide -- 14 another big issue was for the NOPR analysis when we 15 did the tear-downs we didn't observe -- well, we 16 observed in the particular tear-down models we 17 looked at there would be enough space to expand the 18 heat exchanger without having to expand the overall 19 cabinet size. 20 We got a lot of comments back that for 21 some manufacturers this is not the case and we had 22 some helpful photos that showed that the heat

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 exchanger went right up the edge of the (inaudible) 2 would need to be expanded. 3 So that's something that's on the table 4 that we're also considering. The only questions 5 there would be is enough to assume the cabinet 6 expands in size or is it limited in size unit to 7 the current (inaudible) situations to the current 8 sizes and then (inaudible) manufacturer (inaudible) 9 alternate configurations. 10 And then the last thing, so we looked 11 primarily at the representative capacity 250,000 12 BTU per hour. I think at the public meeting or so, 13 and also in the comments, there were some 14 discussion about the differences for larger 15 furnaces because the range goes up over a million. 16 I think we got some feedback that those larger 17 units can be significantly indifferent than the 18 representative capacity. 19 So that one's a little bit tougher than 20 the other two. I think the other two might be easy 21 enough for us to sort of do some modeling, can 22 figure out how to do it.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 The last one, it would be great if we did 2 these tear-downs of larger sizes, but I think given 3 the timeline, it's going to be tough. So we would 4 ask for it, but really they're about how the prices 5 -- how the cost (inaudible) as we go. 6 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt of Pacific Gas 7 and Electric. 8 One of my concerns is in California we 9 have the issue of air pollution, so we have the NOx 10 standards coming in. I'm glad, Bob, you helped me 11 understand more about this. 12 As a huge public policy issue, is there 13 an impact of the NOx requirements dropping from the 14 40 to 14 or something on this issue? This could be 15 a situation where we get a collision of policy 16 needs and collision of product design. 17 Is there anything on that or does anyone 18 know? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. 20 Well, one, I totally agree. First of 21 all, they're not coincided at the same time, so we 22 have double development and timing. Needs are not

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 at all in synch, so -- of course, California and 2 the NOx don't think about that. They don't 3 consider that in anything in what they're having to 4 do with containment. I understand what their needs 5 for containment. 6 But, yeah, it's redesigned for both 7 things, so they're not in synch. You have to do 8 all the same kind of testing that you have to do 9 for a new heat exchanger for what might possibly be 10 the technology that will get us to the lower -- 11 Now this right now, Marshall, remember 12 that that's only at -- hitting us on this very 13 lower end of this, because right now they're at 14 175,000 BTUs and -- so it only covers really here 15 at this very, very low end, but they're discussing 16 -- and at least I've been in calls with them -- 17 they're discussing programs for this size as well. 18 Where they'll land on, what nanograms per 19 joule, and all that kind of stuff, I don't know, 20 because it's the first time that they would cover 21 this kind of commercial (inaudible). I don't think 22 they even know yet is kind of what I was getting

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 from the. 2 MR. HUNT: Right. So I would appreciate 3 any input you guys have with the people I can talk 4 to get more information. We need somehow to put 5 these together, (inaudible). 6 MS. HOOTMAN: More information from? 7 MR. HUNT: Manufacturers who are dealing 8 with your kind of experts, and I'll have to track 9 down our quality management -- their quality 10 management (inaudible) people. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I'd like to know where 12 they're going to go. 13 MR. deLASKI: Just a quick question for 14 clarification, this is Andrew, is it -- are they 15 state-wide requirements or are they by AQMD? 16 MALE SPEAKER: By AQMD is my 17 understanding, although they tend to roll up and -- 18 MR. deLASKI: But beginning in the South 19 coast. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right now san Joaquin and 21 South coast are for sure going to the 14 nanograms 22 per joule. Have not seen Bay area yet, but San

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 Joaquin -- 2 MALE SPEAKER: The frequency of gas packs 3 -- I mean, is -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Just as high as the nation, 5 very high, very high. 6 MALE SPEAKER: That's our dominant 7 heating system for commercial. 8 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr again. 9 So I notice some of the larger units are kind of 10 already at 82 percent. Is there a -- this is 11 probably more for Navigant, whatever. 12 What's the split of the market, what 13 percentage units are already at that based on class 14 size? 15 MR. WHITWELL: Louis, this is Bob 16 Whitwell. 17 If you look at the AHRI (phonetic) 18 directory, there are no units at 82 percent, 80 and 19 81. 20 MALE SPEAKER: Approximately half the 21 units of -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I have nothing at 82.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 MALE SPEAKER: So this is right at the 2 point where there's no units that are that size. 3 MALE SPEAKER: We did the NOPR analysis 4 months ago. I can't even tell you how long, the 5 review process, it's been a while. 6 When we looked at the market previously, 7 there were units at 82 at that time. In the time 8 since then, those units have either been 9 discontinued our have been... 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 11 So from the ARHI directory, there was an 12 82 unit in the directory for 15? 13 MALE SPEAKER: As far back (inaudible) to 14 at least -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: So it was just dropped in 16 the last year or so. This is more of rating in my 17 mind, and everyone please join -- it's more of a 18 rating issue than a performance issue. So the 19 units are performing at 82. They're being rated at 20 80 and 81. 21 MALE SPEAKER: It's funny, because I was 22 probably looking at some old literature and I was

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 thinking well, these units are 82, but that makes 2 sense now that (inaudible) measuring things and 3 it's -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a rating and 5 certification issue. 6 MALE SPEAKER: And a testing variability. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: Exactly. Because of 8 certification, we want to make sure that 100 9 percent of the time we're going to pass. Now 10 you're putting more conservativeness in things. 11 MR. WINNINGHAM: John, I guess from your 12 perspective, it may a rating issue, but we don't 13 agree with that. 14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can you introduce 15 yourself? 16 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham 17 from Lennox. 18 If you have a -- you have to be in the 82 19 percent per carrier, you're going to be somewhere 20 above that and that is the area we're going to run 21 into, condensing corrosion. So it's not a rating 22 issue, it's a real performance issue and

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 reliability issue. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Jonathan (inaudible). 3 But that unit was available for 15 years 4 at 82, now it's not. So it wasn't an issue 5 previously, or was it? It was in the directory for 6 15 years, so what changed to make it not an issue? 7 I'm not looking at you, I'm looking at (inaudible) 8 right now. 9 So something changed in the last year in 10 a half. We can hypothesize what that was, but -- 11 MR. deLASKI: It's a matter of public 12 record whose unit it was; right? I mean, it was in 13 the directory. 14 MALE SPEAKER: I just didn't want to call 15 anybody out. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Literally it has been 18 re-rated because of surety to pass end 19 certification. 20 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. One thing has 21 changed is a requirement to rate -- to test two 22 samples of every basic model. So if you have any

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 variation there, you have to rate based on this 2 statistical calculation, so that can bring the 3 rating down. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: On the testing variation 5 we've seen in the testing lab? 6 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John for DOE. 8 So none of those things were problem in 9 the AHRI certification, it's just been the DOE 10 certification? It's just for my own benefit. 11 MALE SPEAKER: There was in the 12 requirement to test a minimum of two samples to do 13 a statistical calculation for the AHRI rating. 14 MR. DOPPLE: It's more the issue -- this 15 is Paul Dopple with Mitsubishi. 16 It's more the issue of the statistics 17 that are required by DOE that cause things to be 18 good? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: We are way more 20 conservative than we would be with AHRI. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Rusty, I think you tried 22 to say you recall one of our prior conversations,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 too, of our informal conversations was -- I think 2 you said a moment ago that the market is about 50 3 percent at 80 and 50 percent at 81, and I see 4 nodding from others that that's about -- 5 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, based on the -- 6 based on the model count. 7 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, based on the model 8 count. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Based on the model count. 10 MALE SPEAKER: So the model count is 11 that. 12 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I don't 13 know this gentleman. Are your Robert or -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Who's Charlie? 16 MALE SPEAKER: Charlie's not here. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there, this is John 18 from DOE, any idea of the shipments versus the 19 models (speaking under breath)? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Just for furnaces? 21 MALE SPEAKER: Marshall may know better 22 (inaudible). Aren't there some rebates available

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 at 81 percent? 2 MALE SPEAKER: Not in California that I 3 know of, maybe -- 4 (Simultaneous talking.) 5 MR. THARP: I think somewhere I -- 80 6 percent (inaudible) I think something may be 7 driving that. I'm pretty sure it is at least on the 8 residential side. 9 If there's some nuances like that that 10 just doesn't make sense but yet there's a small 11 increase that -- so, for example, you would get a 12 rebate at 81 percent but not a rebate at 80. So 13 there are some things like that's utility -- and 14 driven that cause manufacturers to do some weird 15 things with ratings. 16 MR. STARR: So I have a question. So it 17 sounds like they're changing the -- how the ratings 18 are done, that basically means now. What's 19 happening with that equipment that instead of -- at 20 the lower standards are they having to redesign for 21 that to -- I mean, in other words they essentially 22 -- it's the same market it was before or after the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 test procedures to change, it seems like it would 2 move some of that market down to where it's not 3 really meeting the ratings and doing the same 4 amount of statistics. See what I'm saying? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. 6 I guess I'm not understanding, Louis. Are 7 you asking at 80 percent what would we have to do 8 versus 81 as far as development? Both of those 9 would have to be developed. 10 MR. STARR: Right -- well, right now the 11 requirement's 80 percent; is that right? 12 So essentially they (inaudible) DOE 13 regulations and made it to where you have to be a 14 little more conservative in your estimates, which 15 means there must be some equipment models out there 16 you're having to redesign? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 18 MR. STARR: So is that just -- I mean, if 19 50 percent of the market was 82 and more, and 50 20 percent of the market was 81 or less, so that -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: There was nothing at 82, 22 except for that --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 MR. STARR: Well, I meant with the old 2 testing regiment, it was at a lower level. So I'm 3 just trying to figure out there must be someone out 4 there redesigning that had (inaudible) equipment 5 and -- is that happening? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I can only speak for 7 ourselves. Yes, we are redesigning, mostly airflow 8 passing and we're -- because airflow models have 9 also changed in the meantime. 10 MR. deLASKI: Another follow-up question 11 I had also relates back to an earlier conversation 12 we had in one of our pre-meetings. 13 I thought one of the manufactuers, and I 14 don't remember who it was, but hat -- the issue 15 with the need for -- to mitigate for condensation, 16 the materials that can handle condensation, is 17 (inaudible) insulation. So you asked the question, 18 so what's the incident rate? 19 So 82 percent may be that that's going to 20 be fine sometimes but not fine other times, 21 depending on the climate which you're installing 22 the product.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 So if someone could help me understand 2 that, that would be helpful. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not just climate, it's 4 airflow in that -- in that situation as well, what 5 kind of -- are they at the low-end of the range of 6 the airflow required? I mean, we're designing 7 these heat exchangers for midpoint of range. 8 So at 80 or 81, that's your midpoint of 9 the range. That means there's something above it 10 and something below it. And the something up above 11 it definitely goes into the 82, 83, 84 percent. 12 When we we're at 80, yes, we're -- there's probably 13 even cases right then that you're at 82 and 83. 14 Less because it's on the far -- far side of the 15 range, midpoint of the range, but now that you made 16 that decline closer, there's a lot more 17 applications that would fall in there. 18 I mean, in my public comments I think I 19 had a table attached, if they can pull them up. 20 It's a generic table that almost anybody would have 21 on gas. 22 MR. STARR: I have a thought, (inaudible)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 or not, but if you think about the gas usage, if 2 you have -- say you -- the upper end's probably 3 easier to get to the efficiency ratings, but the 4 lower end's more of a problem. It's a gas issue. 5 More units are sold or used gas at the higher end. 6 Maybe you could do something where the lower end 7 has a lower limit than the upper end. 8 It keeps from doing less redesign 9 (inaudible), but you get the savings. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no way to track 11 that. There is no way to track that in sales. It 12 leaves our ship dock. I don't get -- what all the 13 conditions are of all those buildings, I have no 14 way of knowing that. So there's no way to track 15 it, I can't tell you that. 16 MR. STARR: Just a sense, though. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: I really don't. 18 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with 19 Lennox. 20 We build a product that we want to be 21 reliable regardless of the installation and we 22 build it according -- as Jill said, once you build

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 it, you don't necessarily know where that product 2 is going to go. So even if you build it -- design 3 and build a product that will stand up to the 4 riggers of the installation map that you 5 (inaudible). 6 Most of these products have outside air 7 requirements that even in temperate climates see 8 lower inlet conditions to the heat exchanger, which 9 causes condensation. 10 So when you have those fresh air 11 requirements that we do not see in residential that 12 you do see in commercial at those lower ambient 13 conditions, that's were you run into condensation. 14 MR. DARMINGTON: If there are no further 15 thoughts on these points, that's it for me... 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I just want 17 to try and summarize what I think I've heard, 18 because I might have been mistaken. 19 First thing is that products formally 20 rated at 82 have been derated to 80 or 81 in part 21 to preserve the safety factor -- on the DOE 22 certification, it requires two samples to be tested

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 instead of one. 2 The second thing I've heard is that 3 ripple down has been redesigned for products that 4 have historically been rated at 80 and perhaps some 5 that have been historically rated at 81 to make 6 sure you have the same comfort factor or safety 7 factor with the new certification requirements. 8 Is that about it, Jill? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct from my 10 perspective. 11 MR. SACHS: I trust you mostly. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to continue 14 with the (inaudible) furnace analysis. This is 15 what I'm going to be starting at (speaking under 16 breath), so this is just a review of the -- 17 something hopefully I've seen before. 18 (Paper rumbling over speaker.) 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: (Inaudible) or top 20 tables for gas and the bottom is for oil. 21 Perhaps the place you should be looking 22 at first is just those average LCC savings. You

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 can see that for all the efficiency levels 2 analyzed, they were positive. The key part of this 3 is the results are part of (inaudible) buildings 4 with net costs. You can see how that is extremely 5 low until you get to condensity level... 6 I'm just going to move on. I thought it 7 would be to just go over the fact that we are 8 (inaudible) details on the installation costs. So 9 there are basic installation costs, condensating 10 (inaudible) installation costs, and venting 11 installation costs. Each one of those has 12 (inaudible) details on how much those costs and how 13 much those are to install. 14 Again, most of the information is coming 15 from our (inaudible) where they have cost data. 16 There is some information being pulled (speaking 17 under breath), so subject area of experts. 18 I think it's also important to note that 19 installation location, that was estimated that 95 20 percent of the gas (inaudible) were outdoors, five 21 percent indoors. 22 (Coughing.)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 Again, more details. This is what's 2 important to try to get the (inaudible) of removal 3 correct, what it would cost out, how much it would 4 take to (speaking under breath). 5 So you can see how the various 6 installation costs, how often they were applied to 7 an installation, and what the costs were. 8 So the last column is perhaps what you 9 should focus on, because that takes it to locality. 10 The frequency each of these were implied, again 11 170, 131, 51, 125, and $9. So those were all costs 12 on average that were added to the cost of (speaking 13 under breath). 14 This looks at the -- what we call the 15 basic case deficiency distribution or distribution 16 where we don't have any standards (speaking under 17 breath) is to try to get this right so we don't 18 overestimate the facts of buildings consumed that 19 are going to be impacted by the (inaudible) and/or 20 gas-fired equipment. For the outdoor installation, 21 you can see 70 percent there was estimated to be at 22 the baseline level, 40 percent and 81 percent, 9

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 percent at 82, and (inaudible). 2 A little bit different fractions there 3 for the indoor installations so that you can also 4 see the oil there. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 6 So based on the recent re-rating, I 7 assume that nine would go to the 80? 8 MR. WHITWELL: Probably 81. I would 9 expect to (inaudible) to the 81. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the 81. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Speaking for the ones that 12 I said I know were me and I'm not all nine of 13 those, nor do I have any indoors. 14 Jill from Trane. 15 Speaking for those models they were 16 de-rated to 81 percent. I think there are about 17 four or five maybe of that nine. 18 MR. deLASKI: That's percentage. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is market share 20 from the models, that nine -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It makes no sense to me. 22 (Speaking under breath) that way we don't do it.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 MALE SPEAKER: That's why we're trying to 2 get the shipment -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So I have no indoor 4 models, so I can't speak for -- 5 MALE SPEAKER: For the outdoor, I think 6 that's where the action is here. So I just want to 7 make sure if we go make this change, we're going to 8 move -- no matter what we do to our report that 9 night (speaking under breath). 10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. From my 11 perspective it should go to the -- the 82 would go 12 to 81. I don't know about that 70, so then we'd 13 have a 70/30 split roughly; right? So that's based 14 on -- what's that based on? 15 MALE SPEAKER: Strictly an AHRI directory 16

-- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Because I -- last time I 18 checked it was very close to 50/50. I had it at 19 46/54, so... 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm not sure which 21 version of the directory this was pulled from, but 22 perhaps it was a prior -- an earlier one than the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 one (inaudible). 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, what I looked at -- 3 This is Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 4 What I looked at was earlier this year 5 around the time of the NOPR. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 7 So besides the 82 re-rating, I may have 8 missed this earlier, did a lot of the 81s get 9 re-rated to 80? 10 MALE SPEAKER: None in my case, but I 11 can't speak for others. 12 MALE SPEAKER: John, all of our products 13 are rated (inaudible), so (speaking under breath). 14 MALE SPEAKER: I'm hearing more of a 15 50/50 -- 50/50 might be more. 16 MALE SPEAKER: Should be more 17 representative. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we ask that the 19 analysis be updated with the latest AHRI directory 20 information? I know we've done some changes, but I 21 don't know the latest scope of them. The 22 directory's updated everyday. So since we're in

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 the middle of this working group -- 2 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen. 3 I think we should use the latest. 4 MALE SPEAKER: We would regardless, 5 right, we would do that. Because as the guys were 6 saying earlier, this is a pretty stale analysis 7 based on how long it is in review. 8 I guess the point I would make is that 9 the problem we always have is going from models in 10 the directory to market share, so you can have a 11 lot of models at 81 but not sell a lot of them. 12 So that's the kind of thing we're looking 13 for from either AHRI or manufactuers is to get that 14 mapping. If 50/50's the right answer, I'm okay 15 with that. I mean, I just want to -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 17 Carrier. 18 On the gas side it's different than it is 19 on the air conditioning side where we would tier 20 based on efficiency, so there you see a lot of the 21 volume at the lower efficiency and then less as you 22 go up. On the gas side between 80 and 81, it's

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 really not tiered. It's just where the -- you 2 might have a design and you're covering different 3 gas heats with the same heat exchange or designs, 4 so you're higher gas heat is going to be lower 5 efficiency than the lower gas heat that you're 6 using with the same heat exchangers or in this end 7 cabinet. I would expect the shipments to be pretty 8 similar match to the models. 9 MALE SPEAKER: So I'm going to suggest to 10 re-run -- re-run with 50/50 or I guess 50/49 of 101 11 of this chart? 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, or 46/54, whatever 13 it turns out to be... 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just use the models 15 straight up? 16 MALE SPEAKER: That would be my 17 recommendations. 18 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. 19 It makes sense to me, too. I'm just 20 going back to the manufacturer production chart 21 that was earlier. And the difference in the 22 manufacturer production cost is (inaudible)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 showing, so -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: We would disagree with that 3

-- 4 MR. deLASKI: What I was hearing Bob say 5 -- what I'm hearing Bob say is that you design a 6 furnace and your shooting for (inaudible) but you 7 might -- you get 80 or 81, depending on how the 8 thing ultimately tests out. But you maybe weren't 9 even designed for 81, you were designed for a 10 compliant product. 11 MR. WHITWELL: We design for -- to 12 minimize the complexity at our manufacture and 13 operation. So when you design a range of heat sizes 14 for a given chasse size, the low heat could be 15 higher efficiency than the high heat. 16 So we really designed to be at -- make 17 sure that we're not below the minimum, but we don't 18 want to be so high that we start condensing. 19 MR. deLASKI: You're not trying to design 20 good, better, best; hey, this one's a point better 21

-- 22 MR. WHITWELL: That's correct.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 MR. deLASKI: I'm going to earn a margin 2 on it, I'm going to -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct. 4 MR. deLASKI: -- which one can see the -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: That's correct. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Because their customers 7 would say there's no payback -- 8 (Simultaneous talking.) 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Are these all certified 10 to DOE now? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MALE SPEAKER: Everything -- all the way 13

-- 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: We could check what we 15 have and see what we have. 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Remember, we 17 took away the penalty for being too good. I have a 18 (inaudible) question about sort of scope. 19 Roughly what's the number of indoor 20 units, fraction of indoor units, on the gas side 21 relevant to the gas packs? 22 MALE SPEAKER: Did you ever hear --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't participate in it, 2 but I would suspect it's small. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Bob Whitwell, 4 Carrier. We don't have any indoors either. 5 MALE SPEAKER: I'm trying to think of an 6 application for -- 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham 8 of Lennox. 9 We do produce it. It is very small, 10 churches, sometimes (speaking under breath) 11 warehouse -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I was going to say, a 13 warehouse where you get something cooled inside of 14 a warehouse. 15 MALE SPEAKER: We're competing with the 16 (inaudible)? 17 MALE SPEAKER: Not really. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Not really, because an 19 associated cooling system is going with it; 20 correct? 21 Jill Hootman, Trane. 22 So the associated cooling system is going

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 with it and then unit heaters doesn't have the 2 cooling system? 3 MR. SACHS: Now, from my perspective then 4 of concern with energy savings, the variability of 5 the indoor units just don't add up in (speaking 6 under breath). No product, no energy. 7 MALE SPEAKER: So, Greg, can we go back 8 to Slide 13? Unfortunately I don't have any data 9 on this, but I just wonder about the 12-and-a-half 10 percent assumption for applying neutralizers to 11 condensate. 12 My understand -- we don't participate in 13 condensing gas furnaces on the commercial side, but 14 what I have heard is that many building codes don't 15 allow the condensate to be drained into the 16 sanitary sewer. 17 So given that if that's the case, then I 18 think we would see a much higher percentage of 19 systems or unit supply that would have to have the 20 neutralizing system. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to venture to 22 guess.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 MALE SPEAKER: You're more involved with 2 building codes as far as what percentage? 3 MR. LORD: I never checked into that. We 4 have to go -- it's probably all concurrently IMC 5 and IDC. 6 MALE SPEAKER: That's something we can 7 easily adjust upward. Again, that's just going to 8 make the condensing level look that much less 9 attractive. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it may not be a big 11 issue, just... 12 FEMALE SPEAKER: I agree... 13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. My 14 understanding is condensate neutralizer is a 15 zero-pressure, little bucket of (inaudible). It's a 16 little bit of maintenance costs, little bit of 17 capital costs. But on a scale of total (inaudible) 18 in the condense -- 19 MALE SPEAKER: That's right, Harvey. It's 20 not -- that was my comment. It's not a big issue 21 probably in the big picture; right? 22 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). Thank you.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: So in leaving this slide 2 with the base case efficiency distribution is 3 showing how that distribution is affected by the 4 standards. It's a simple rollout where the national 5 standard of the market share below that (inaudible) 6 analyzing just rolls up to that particular level. 7 Then for the base case, the chart on the 8 right, shows how market shares are changing 9 (inaudible) analysis that was considered. I can 10 say in the base case, there's very, very little 11 change over that time frame. 12 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey again. 13 Can a question scaled are those shipments in 14 commercial oil (inaudible) furnaces in the range of 15 1,000 a year, 500 a year, or 5,000 a year? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I hope this graph 17 answers that question. I mean, it -- 18 MALE SPEAKER: My eyes are old and have 19 some trouble (inaudible), but it sounds like it's 20 approaching zero? 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it's small. It's 22 very small. What I'm showing here on the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 shipments, historical and (inaudible) of the 2 analysis for both gas and oil. In the base case, 3 there's a case (speaking under breath). 4 So just give me an idea of the number of 5 shipments we're talking about. It's important 6 obviously before getting to the national energy 7 savings (inaudible) first of all showing you that 8 the (inaudible) was considered in the proposed 9 rule. TSL4 was an actual TSL that was chosen as the 10 proposed set of standards, 82 percent for both gas 11 and oil. 12 MR. WINNINGHAM: Greg, this Dave with 13 Lennox. 14 Go back to your volume slide. In the 15 commercial AC rule, which we're combing together 16 here, they showed a 45 percent decline in volume, 17 so I just wonder what the thought process is since 18 the majority of these products are one product how 19 you could show a dramatic (inaudible) versus 20 commercial AC which showed a dramatic decline. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, the analyses were 22 done independent of each other without

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 consideration of what was going on on the AC side 2 versus the gas. So that's how it's -- that's why 3 you see that. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Again, this Dave with 5 Lennox. 6 We'll be correcting that going forward? 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, they 8 should be using same shipments (inaudible). 9 Again, this summarizes the national 10 energy savings at National (inaudible) Rally. For 11 the proposed standards, it's a little over .5 12 quads; .5 quads (speaking under breath) energy 13 savings. Then you see that person valued somewhere 14 over a billion dollars for the proposed standards. 15 That wraps up the summary of what was 16 done for that proposed rule. (Inaudible) what the 17 analysis did show. 18 MR. STARR: It sounds like there's going 19 to be some readjusting of the analysis. Would the 20 TSL levels change for oil and gas or would those 21 stay -- in other words if the gas is shifting down, 22 right, would the oil stay the same or what's the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 thoughts on that in terms of the TSL levels? 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: I've been looking for 3 feedback from this working group for that. You can 4 see that TSL, one's 81 and then there's a 5 combination of 81 and 82 for two and three. 6 So I mean, there's a limited number of 7 combinations we could analyze -- 8 (Simultaneous talking.) 9 MALE SPEAKER: One thing to actually may 10 good to hear from the manufacturer is the same 11 problem that they're having with gas certification, 12 probably the same thing as oil certification 13 requirements, I'm guess that -- 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's not necessarily the 15 same issue because for the oil or for the indoor 16 products, the corrosion issue isn't necessarily the 17 same issue, although we weren't ordering it like 18 that. 19 Probably one of the key issues here is 20 the investment of the (inaudible). Because 21 speaking for ourselves, all of our current products 22 are rated at 80 percent. Obviously, there is a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 significant design effort to increase the 2 efficiency of those. As you've seen, it's a very 3 small portion of the market, so it's kind of a 4 business decision (speaking under breath). I think 5 that may be the case for people who are 6 participating. 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 8 I was going to ask the same question. 9 Perhaps we'll get to that in other slides. Does 10 that make any sense to make a dollar's worth of 11 investment in oil fire equipment to improve its 12 efficiency? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: One would wonder. 14 MALE SPEAKER: You're not off the hook on 15 gas. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: One would wonder. But not 17 participating in it, I can't speak. But I would 18 say that you're always looking at your -- you're 19 always looking at products that are on the fringe 20 like that and you make key decisions on whether 21 you're going to participate or not any time that 22 these efficiency rules -- we could say -- we could

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 be talking about cooling, too, and there's stuff 2 that happens there, too, so... 3 MR. SACHS: Very much appreciated and 4 understood (inaudible) that sort of stranded 5 products, like in the residential sector, the 6 (inaudible) furnace and just asking with respect 7 the declining market oil nationally and very small 8 savings per unit, whether this -- which we want to 9 (inaudible) as opposed to gas. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Could you make them two 11 product classes and then -- and then have one not 12 necessarily moved up as fast as another one or... 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Sure, that's what -- he 14 has all three watts, right, 82 for gas and 81 for 15 oil? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just to point out again, 18 just emphasizing what Harvey said, as far as 19 national energy savings is concerned, there's very 20 little contribution for... 21 MR. SACHS: Greg, are you going -- this 22 is Harvey again.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 Are you going to comment at all on the 2 various (inaudible) and 36 fold increase in 3 national energy savings going from 82, 92, or what? 4 MALE SPEAKER: Could you turn your mike 5 up. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 7 You show on 05 of the upper draft, a 8 (inaudible) factor of 36 (inaudible), 81 or 82 9 percent to 92 percent of oil. Just looks like it's 10 gone linear. 11 MALE SPEAKER: It's just function of the 12 efficiency level that we're analyzing. It's a 13 condensing model that's getting a lot more energy 14 savings (speaking under breath). 15 Still relatively speaking, there's this 16 little note of (speaking under breath), it's a big 17 jump. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 19 Back to Dave's point about the shipments. 20 How do things get replaced? Pardon my imaging 21 here, but do they -- so you're saying the furnace 22 (inaudible) inside the box, it won't be a furnace

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 shipment independently of the box, the QAC, so you 2 get both no matter what? 3 MALE SPEAKER: You're talking about the 4 gas side? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Dave's point is 6 that the shipment should be equal. In my mind if 7 (coughing) piece breaks in the rooftop, you're 8 going to get the whole thing. 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Do we need their -- this 10 is Dave with Lennox. 11 You would either replace the heat 12 exchanger with a (inaudible) or replace the box, 13 which has both more times than not. It depends on 14 the product, but more times than not you're going 15 to replace the box. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: At least in most of these I 17 would say -- I would agree with Dave in most of 18 these. To get a heat exchanger out and replace it 19 is significant labor, usually having to take off 20 the top and side panels and you're talking about 21 you got to have a lift jack up there (inaudible). 22 When you start to talk about these

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 million, two million in heat exchangers are pretty 2 significant, they're pretty tall, they're pretty 3 big. So, yeah, you're talking about (inaudible). 4 They would probably be able to do a whole unit for 5 almost what it costs us for the heat exchanger; 6 maybe not so much in the smaller product, but 7 definitely in this bigger stuff, yeah. 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: John, just to follow up, 9 the thing that could change that equation is 10 (speaking under breath) increasing product cost to 11 increase efficiency could change that equation on 12 these heat exchangers. 13 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. It's a 14 follow-up question, Dave. 15 What's the range -- at what point is that 16 happening in our product life are you saying that 17 the heat exchanger need to be replaced? Is that -- 18 what's the range -- what's the disti -- not 19 distribution, what's the range you, in fact, 20 experience? 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: In all honesty, Andrew, 22 I would have to go back and look at some data. My

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 guess would be it's a 10 to 15-year range. We 2 would -- honestly to answer the question factually 3 I would have to go back and look at some data. 4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. If we can go 5 back for just a second, I need to continue beating 6 the dead horse. 7 If I look at the $6 million per year at 8 present value that's for over 30 years I assume, 9 which is $200,000 per year net present value 10 consumer benefit from whatever redesign we require 11 of the oil furnaces, which hardly seems to be a 12 winning case. 13 I also note reference to the earlier 14 question that -- a question that occurs to me I 15 believe that almost oil fired (inaudible) furnaces 16 in a free-style mode gas facts as opposed to the 17 gas situation which was essentially the opposite 18 with almost everything being integrated into the 19 RTU. 20 Am I correct on that? 21 MALE SPEAKER: Basically that almost all 22 the oil furnace -- commercial oil furnaces are

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 free-standing indoor products versus almost all the 2 gas (inaudible) furnaces are integrated into the 3 RTUs. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: I would say in most 5 cases that was true. In the past, we had -- we had 6 manufactured both the gas and an oil version of 7 that, but again there was very little volume. I 8 can't speak to all of the manufacturers. There was 9 a variety of small manufactuers of those types of 10 products (speaking under breath). 11 MR. SACHS: That's helpful, David. It 12 brings me to my bottom-line question, which is, 13 does it exist to establish to (inaudible) glass 14 that is heated and I didn't know whether it was an 15 indoor or outdoor product (inaudible) about whether 16 it's gas or oil. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, right now they are 18 in two separate classes, gas and oil; not indoor 19 and outdoor, but gas and oil. 20 MR. STARR: I have a question -- this is 21 Louis Starr again. 22 So typically on a heat exchanger for a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 furnace, you get a 10-year warranty and sometimes 2 more that's a stainless steel one. 3 So it seems like they're -- it seems like 4 they last a long time first of all, but it seems 5 like -- I know my own furnace at my home which was 6 an oil furnace and did have (inaudible), there was 7 a crack in the heat exchanger. They could replace 8 it without replacing the whole unit. 9 Isn't that the case with commercial units 10 that you can -- they're kind of like the things 11 with the air compressors and the analysis where 12 they found people just replaced the air compressors 13 rather than buying a new unit and there's several 14 replacement parts. There's not a replacement 15 market for some of the items that fail inside the 16 heat exchanger. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: That was the point that we 18 were saying before in that Dave had spoke to 19 before, which was it depends at what timing that 20 happens. And you're right it is layering the unit's 21 life and what are your costs versus a whole unit 22 exchange.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 When you're talking about anything above 2 250, when you start to get these 850 BT -- and 3 there's a lot of these units that are 850,000 BTUs, 4 that's significant. I got to lift a whole roof off 5 of a unit to get that heat exchanger out. That 6 roof of that unit is 50-foot long. 7 MR. STARR: You said it's below the unit 8 or such that you have to lift it off -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the middle of the 10 unit. It's in the middle of the unit. You've got 11 to take side panels off and -- it doesn't have to 12 totally lift up, but you have to take something and 13 lift -- pry it open so that you can get that out, 14 so it's a significant amount of work. By the time 15 they add that all up, they could probably change 16 out the unit. 17 MR. STARR: (Inaudible) just kind of a -- 18 something else about it. In the air conditioning, 19 one of the reasons -- or the central air condition 20 units are the CAUCs. The reason those things are 21 (inaudible) is because everybody replaces a quick 22 set of (coughing) -- or replacement parts, but

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 (inaudible) the opposite way. You buy equipment, 2 so they don't really have a choice whether they're 3 going to replace the unit because it becomes so 4 expensive where it sounds like the air conditioning 5 side, you can replace the parts and pieces much 6 easier. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: There again, it depends on 8 what it is. A condenser foil or a compressor 9 that's out on the outside of the unit, it might be. 10 You're talking about compressors that aren't huge 11 in (inaudible) here, but -- but if you start 12 talking about a vap coil, the vap coil is in the 13 middle of the unit. It starts to get hard. On a 14 30-ton unit, you're talking about significant 15 pounds. 16 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. 17 I think there were (inaudible) mechanical 18 issues here, but I just want to make a larger 19 observation. 20 I don't know whether we'll find a path 21 for this in this (inaudible) or not, but if I look 22 at this chart up here, big opportunity is at PSL5;

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 right? 2 So if we look as energy efficiency 3 advocate, I would look for ways to advance energy 4 efficiency in the longterm. If I could see a world 5 where the market for condensing commercial furnaces 6 starts to grow, that's a great outcome from an 7 efficiency savings point of view. So I don't know 8 whether we'll be able to find a way to talk about 9 that in this discussion. 10 I understand that the market -- the 11 market share is one percent or less, some of you 12 guys don't even make them today. So I'm just 13 observing that the big -- I'm the opposite of 14 Harvey. Harvey is looking at well, where's 15 nothing, where's the big numbers in TSL5? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not disagreeing, Andrew 17 -- this is Jill from Trane. 18 I'm not disagreeing, but that technology 19 has been available obviously with residential. We 20 could certainly make those, but why hasn't our 21 customer bought those from us; why hasn't that 22 customer come to us and ask for those increase

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 tiers like we've had in cooling? 2 I think the significant reason they have 3 is they understand the installation burden that 4 that is, that they can't overcome that installation 5 burden. They do not want these things on roofs. 6 They do not them on rubber roofs. They can't have 7 that liability of caustic materials up there. They 8 don't know what to -- how -- where to put that 9 condensate, because it's not allowed by codes to be 10 put into -- into a pot of a water system. 11 So they don't want to overcome that 12 significant barrier, even though they could 13 understand that there would be some savings in the 14 north and that's probably it in the north. 15 MR. deLASKI: I hear you and I understand 16 those barriers are there. But also, my 17 understanding, is that there has been progress and 18 that there are marked products out there and they 19 are having some -- it's not taking off like the 20 iPad or something, no, but there is -- actually, 21 that's going back down now, but the point is there 22 is progress over the 20 years. It hasn't been a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 total dead end. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But those units are 3 in -- make up air units, very specialized, very 4 expensive systems. That's where that 92 percent is 5 being made right now, not a standard rooftop. 6 MR. WINNINGHAM: There are no standard 7 rooftop type products that I'm aware of and are 8 above 81 percent (inaudible) if you look in the 9 directory. 10 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 11 Carrier. 12 The other issue, Andrew, is that when you 13 go to condensing, you're adding more heat 14 exchanger. Even going from 80 to 81, 81 to 82 15 you're adding more heat exchanger. But especially 16 if you go to condensing, you got to add the 17 secondary heat exchanger, which is going to cause 18 more airside pressure drop, it's going to impact 19 the cooling side efficiencies, right, because it's 20 going to draw more fan power in order to do -- pull 21 the air over the -- over the larger heat exchanger 22 on the gas side.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 So that just means that to stay even on 2 the air conditioner side, you have to add more coil 3 or you have to do something in order to keep the 4 cooling efficiency -- meet the cooling efficiency 5 levels. 6 MR. LORD: (Inaudible) we've actually 7 studied that quite a bit for 90.1 and that added 8 air site pressure drop is significant on commercial 9 unites, because you got to remember the fan runs 10 all the time. 11 In most of the load and cooling is in 12 (inaudible) -- in the studies we have done show 13 that Climate Zone 5 and lower gets a negative 14 savings, because (inaudible) sets the gas savings, 15 so you can only do it in very, very cold climates. 16 Those buildings get tighter and tighter, it becomes 17 less of an economic benefit. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 19 Only because we have a transcript here 20 some technical, the point I'd like to make on 21 Jill's comment, we're not injecting the condensated 22 (inaudible) water supply.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 This is for other sewage disposal -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Sewage, you're right. 3 MR. SACHS: People get very nervous about 4 (inaudible) water supply. 5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. 6 I had actually talked with Jeff Harris 7 who does a lot of our stuff. (Inaudible) in the 8 '80s on the residential side. One of his concerns 9 was that just bumping the efficiency a little bit, 10 I guess back then it made it where the equipment 11 had a lot of problems and had a whole bunch of 12 products out there with just slightly better 13 efficiency then have lots of problems. 14 So really with this thought -- I'm not 15 saying that you should jump to the higher level, 16 but you don't want to do an incremental approach, 17 just a little bit of increase is the idea that you 18 really need to go for the bigger amount, otherwise 19 you're just really introducing unfortunately some 20 more regulations that really don't put too much 21 energy savings, so -- anyway, just -- I thought 22 about it.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's it with the -- 2 analysis. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Greg, this Bob Whitwell 4 from Carrier. 5 So I know we've talked about -- you 6 talked about this. There was no discussion about 7 it, but on Slide 8 you're showing the 8 manufacturer's cost. This is all based on going to 9 longer heat exchangers I think? 10 MR. WESTPHANEN: Yes. 11 MR. WHITWELL: I think you mentioned that 12 there were comments that came back about not being 13 room to put -- to go longer in the cabinets. And I 14 know that we've analyzed this and in many cases, we 15 would have difficulty putting the longer heat 16 exchanger in there. 17 So -- and in those cases, we would have 18 to add additional tubes and -- so it's going to be 19 slightly more of an increase in cost. I don't know 20 if you've taken a look at what that might be. 21 MR. WESTPHANEN: We haven't taken a look 22 at it yet, but if we go to -- I think that was the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 first issue that we -- or the second issue we 2 looked at on (inaudible). It's something that 3 we're going to try to consider and hopefully get an 4 update as it results during the course of this 5 working group. 6 MR. DOPPLE: Paul Dopple with Mitsubishi. 7 So, Bob, when you do longer tubes, then 8 that also increases the cabinet width which causes 9 the need for transition curbs? 10 MALE SPEAKER: That's right. That's 11 right. And that's why we -- 12 MR. DOPPLE: The costs are compounding, 13 it's not just the tube itself? 14 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, our goal would not 15 be to make the cabinet wider, right, so it's what 16 we can fit in the cabinet, and that would be more 17 tubes as opposed to -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, it would be more 19 tubes. 20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen. 21 We brought up this same issue I think in 22 our -- either our interview with you guys or in our

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 comments and you supplied pictures that went to 2 this very point, so I just want to be on record 3 echoing the concerns raised by Bob. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Is there anything else 5 on commercial warm air furnaces before we turn over 6 to air conditioners? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Since we have Dick in the 8 room, maybe we should go a little out of order to 9 deal with those issues as opposed to the 10 engineering first. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So, John, before we do it 12 -- so my understanding now is that the analysis 13 will be re-run based on the things we discussed? 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 15 MR. WHITWELL: When would we see that? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: What are those things, just 17 to make sure I'm... 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's the market shares 19 is the big one. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. (Inaudible) -- 21 market shares based upon the AHRI directory. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to have a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 slew of data updates that we normally do. So the 2 new AEO is like that. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: But then will the effects 4 of our -- Jill from Trane. 5 So will the effects of condensat, 6 additional cost to condensate at 82 percent be 7 recalculated in the (inaudible) cycle? 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Those condensate removal 9 costs like I showed on this slide were for the 10 commencing efficiency level, they weren't for 82 11 percent -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: But it happens at 82 13 percent. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Those are the open 15 questions I think that Adam presented but you can 16 comment to that. We asked for what grade of steel, 17 for example, I think was one of the questions. We 18 haven't received definitive -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, without doing 20 development and testing, I can't tell you for sure. 21 I can tell you we know for sure it is we know for 22 sure, it is a stainless and/or one grade below,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 which is what (coughing). It's one of two, 2 stainless and/or the grade right below stainless. 3 I know for sure it's that. I can't tell which it 4 would end up without doing actual development. 5 MR. WESTPHANEN: We'll look at product 6 literature and see what's being offered right now 7 as far as what's (inaudible) steel they're being 8 used and then we'll assess that. An engineering 9 analysis is part of the cost. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Like Bob said, it's at 11 least another two and you didn't add two costs in 12 there. 13 MR. WESTPHANEN: The assumption was 14 originally that it (coughing) a longer two, but we 15 can get you that -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it's another two. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's two issues on 18 that. Any others for the -- I think we're 19 particularly focused on the 82 unit at this point; 20 right? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. So what I heard --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, going up to 2 another size, I mean, you only did the 250 and it 3 would really hard now at this point. I would 4 recommend that you do -- in the future you do two 5 sizes and be it -- either 450 or 850. I really 6 didn't check how many models were, but you should 7 do the two sizes, because it is not the straight 8 line increase. 9 MALE SPEAKER: So going back to the 10 addition of another two (inaudible); if you add 11 another two, then do you not have to increase the 12 overall (inaudible) is that I was hearing, so you 13 could keep it in the same cabinet size? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Based on our quick look at 15 it, I think we have -- we can more easily fit 16 another tube in and then we can add length to the 17 tubes. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. There is -- like 19 anyone, there will be a cabinet that starts to 20 really max out in, but you'll just have to make 21 decisions on (inaudible) another cabinet and what 22 that does to your cost program.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with 2 Lennox. 3 I think it depends on the manufacturer. 4 Some (speaking under breath), some may not. I 5 don't know that we can definitively say here at 6 this point in time or that (inaudible). 7 MS. HOOTMAN: But length is not -- likely 8 not going to happen. I mean, that increases width 9 of your unit and it likely. I mean, they literally 10 might have to jump sizes, cabinet sizes, in lieu 11 of. But adding length is just not -- there's not 12 enough there without making it a really long 13 (inaudible). 14 MR. THARP: In some cases -- this is 15 Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 16 In some cases you may not -- you may have 17 some room physically for additional tube, but due 18 to airflow patterns you don't want to have 19 hotspots, so you wouldn't do (inaudible) that way 20 either. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's where I was saying 22 about I know that we were considering will be a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 jump in size in order to prevent hotspots and rule 2 out real issues. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen. 4 Have we gotten everything out for the -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, this is Bob 6 Whitwell. 7 So we still have this issue where at 82 8 versus 81, we're running into a higher risk of 9 condensation in the heat exchanger. So, for 10 example, if at 81 based on some analysis that some 11 of our engineers did, we can run down to below 10 12 degress Fahrenheit before we start to run into a 13 significant risk of condensate forming in the heat 14 exchangers, but -- I'm sorry, at 80 percent, we can 15 go down to minus 58 degrees Fahrenheit. 16 As we get to 82, it drops to around seven 17 degrees Fahrenheit -- or it comes up to seven 18 degrees Fahrenheit. So there are some significant 19 parts of the country where during certain times 20 during the year you're going to be running with 21 condensate likely to be formed in the heat 22 exchanger.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: But not at 81? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Well, at 81, it would be 3 in between; right? 4 MR. WHITWELL: At 81, it's about minus 5 15, okay, which is -- you know, we don't see a lot 6 of temperature at minus 15 for extended period of 7 times, so -- but it goes -- so minus 58 to minus 15 8 to 7. So, you know, some of these things that are 9 up here that we talked about doing for condensing 10 heat exchangers, we really need to start -- some of 11 those measures we would have to do even at 82 for 12 reliability. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, at 81 they'll be 14 near -- going back to the 50/50, so half of the 15 market right now is 81 and -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, at 81 it's -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- they're doing it and 18 it's not an issue. 19 MR. WHITWELL: I believe -- yeah, I mean, 20 you know -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. That's good to 22 know.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: So just to follow up on 4 that, what would be helpful is if you could 5 estimate the frequency that you would have to apply 6 some of these measures according to -- I mean, here 7 engineers established at so many degrees farenheit 8 you're going to get into condensate issues and -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think we would 10 probably -- we would probably design with the 11 stainless steel heat exchangers if we were to 12 design for 82 because you know at 82 you're going 13 to have some that are running higher than that 14 because of variation -- you know, manufacturing 15 variation. So I think we should assume the 16 stainless heat exchangers. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I would agree with 18 Bob. I mean, in the short development cycle you're 19 talking about here, three years in heat exchanger 20 development is very short. Heat exchanger 21 development takes a lot longer than cooling 22 development because of the cycles that you have to

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 do to assure that it has durability, on-off 2 cycling, and so, you know, you're going to go with 3 the more robust design to begin with, and yeah, 4 maybe some day you'll be able to come back at 5 cost-review side after a lot of design cycles and 6 you figure out that maybe there's some areas you 7 could -- you could reduce down to, you know, 8 whether that's a high loom, galvanized or 9 something, but you're going to go out of the box 10 because you don't have to go with stainless. That's 11 where you're going to go at 82. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Adam, refresh my 13 memory, when we started out as an 82, that didn't 14 have these things, right? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it doesn't because it's 16 probably -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: No, it wouldn't -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: These are mine. And, no, 19 it wasn't. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: I keep wanting to not 21 call you out on that. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it wasn't, and it has

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1

-- 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: How long have you been 3 selling that unit for? 4 MR. WHITWELL: But you probably have a -- 5 you probably have a stainless steel option that 6 people -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: You do -- we do have a 8 stainless steel option. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So have you noticed any 10 issues? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have in the field? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. There are 16 also some other factors in that some of the gas 17 utilities are growing higher sulfur contents 18 (inaudible) and there -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, God, yeah, let's talk 20 about that -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- there are other 22 factors here. And while, you know, Bob's numbers

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 in regard to the temperature of the (inaudible) 2 condensation, that's going to vary from 3 manufacturer to manufacturer according to their 4 design, where they're designing -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: You think -- 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- and how -- at what 8 temperature they're designing their heat exchanger 9 to, there are different ways to get to the same 10 efficiency, so it's not just, you know, Bob's 11 numbers across the board. That could range 10, 15, 12 20 degrees, maybe even higher than that. And with 13 some of the instances we've seen with gas utilities 14 with higher sulfur content, it can -- it can raise 15 that significantly. 16 MALE SPEAKER: Do the manufacturers make 17 -- I think I heard this earlier, two different 18 versions, that being north-south type units? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 20 MALE SPEAKER: So it's just one 21 (inaudible). Thank you. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 little confused, perhaps not atypically. 2 Bob has talked about 80, 81 and 82, and 3 outside air to which we get condensation at risk. 4 And Bill's talked about cycling, and I'm 5 trying to think of a really cold day that -- not at 6 15, but 81, say, it seems to me that I'm -- that's 7 an early morning situation I'm going to encounter 8 when I have Monday morning start-up and bringing 9 the building back up to temperature, and that would 10 seem to be long burn times. Am I seeing the 11 condensation mostly when I'm at short burn times in 12 cold air, or is that a city-state issue, as well, 13 with long burn times? I just don't know. 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with 15 Lennox. It could be a short burn time at relatively 16 mild temperatures where you can see this. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes. 18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Or long burn times at 19 cold temperatures, and kind of variations there in 20 between. Short burn times are -- tend to have more 21 problems, but obviously this can be related to how 22 much outdoor air and what temperature the outdoor

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 is. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Harvey, the numbers 3 I was talking about would be long burn times. It's 4 a city-state type -- kind of situation. 5 MR. SACHS: So if this is fall -- this is 6 Harvey -- that would tend to be one of these 7 inevitable cold spots in that heat exchanger? 8 MR. WHITWELL: The whole heat exchanger. 9 Yes, the whole heat exchanger would be cold. You 10 could -- if you have cold spots in the heat 11 exchanger, which you probably do, those would be 12 issues at even higher outdoor temperatures. 13 MR. SACHS: Okay. 14 MALE SPEAKER: This is just a follow-up 15 question for Bob. Presumably these are not make-up 16 air units so there would be an inherent percent 17 outdoor air, probably, associated with those 18 numbers. 19 MR. WHITWELL: They're not -- they're not 20 dedicated outdoor air units, but they're roof-top 21 units with economizers, so there is outdoor air 22 coming in.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 MALE SPEAKER: Right. But presumably, 2 you would be still open to the outdoor air when -- 3 you know, at these numbers? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, not full open, no. 5 MALE SPEAKER: So these numbers -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But there's minimums on -- 7 you know, on most building there's minimum outside 8 air, just to start. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Right. No, I'm just 10 trying to get an understanding for the numbers. Is 11 this for 50 percent outdoor air, 30 percent, 20 12 percent? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I don't have that -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know the -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: One thing I'd point out, 16 usually on your morning warm-up, you close -- you 17 start heating the building before people get there 18 so you close your outside air damper and you run 19 the air internally to the building so you're not 20 pulling in -- you're getting pretty warm air coming 21 back in the (inaudible), but then once you switch 22 to (inaudible), you have to start drawing outside

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 air, so to the extent -- probably the long-burn one 2 is probably kind of, like you say, Monday morning, 3 and it starts out after the morning -- or the night 4 cool-down or whatever and they're trying to warm 5 the building up, and then after that, it's probably 6 -- I'm guessing it's kind of intermittent use after 7 that, so... 8 MR. WHITWELL: Intermittent use, yes, and 9 so the condensate is still going to be there, 10 right, and it's sitting there. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We have Diane 12 Jakobs who has her hand raised. We will un-mute 13 you, Diane. 14 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, I'm here. Thank you. 15 I work on the gas heat exchangers. It is 16 one of the additional things I do. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. JACKOBS: And for the Rheem furnaces, 19 commercial furnaces, we have a product, stainless 20 steel, that's available, but we've made it 21 available because in some areas in the summer, the 22 gas heat exchanger in a commercial unit will rot

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 because you have cold on the outside of the gas 2 heat exchanger tube and we have hot, wet air on the 3 inside of the tube because it's open for the 4 ambience. And depending on what's in the air in a 5 certain area, there could be ammonia, you know, on 6 the sea coast and you have problems with corrosion, 7 but it's completely -- it's a completely different 8 reason for it being there compared to when we use 9 409 stainless steel in a non-weatherized gas 10 burner. 11 So the (inaudible) standard has tests 12 that we have to run for corrosion, but we did not 13 run those tests on the commercial units because we 14 weren't expecting condensate in the flue gas. 15 We're expecting condensation in the 16 summer inside the tubes because it's hot and wet 17 outside. So it is the same material, we use the 18 same material because it's available and we buy 19 tons of it, but we just have to -- condensate being 20 present in the gas heat exchanger when it's firing 21 in the winter. 22 I don't know if all that made much sense,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 but we use the material, but we tested it and 2 designed for the unit for a different mode of 3 operation (inaudible) commercial furnace. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So can we move on 6 now to -- I suggest we push along since we started 7 late and break right before 12:30 because it's 8 convenient for me to go to a very important meeting 9 upstairs. I won't take long. Sound good? 10 I think we have Dick here, so let's take 11 advantage of his time. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you know, we don't 13 have really much to talk about other than the 1033 14 building data. I mean, we're -- so I don't know -- 15 we don't have any slides really to speak to. 16 This is what we had from the last meeting 17 in terms of -- 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 (Court reporter changed battery.) 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, so as I was saying 21 before, this is the only slide that (inaudible). 22 And this slide is basically a repeat from our prior

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 meeting showing what we've done to address the 2 things that have come up (inaudible). The first one 3 being (inaudible) and making sure that it's based 4 upon, you know, the city, that the building has 5 actually been modeled as opposed to using a 95 6 degree (inaudible). 7 We've done a lot to address the 8 (inaudible). You know, we've gone over this 9 several times, so I don't think there's any need to 10 discuss that, but I just want to point out that one 11 thing we said we were going to do last time, which 12 we haven't done yet, is -- is dealing with these 13 buildings which have a low load, occurrence of low 14 load, I should say, during the course of the year, 15 and not having every single unit on to meet that 16 load. You know, we want to do the sensitivity that 17 would look at what would occur if we only used a 18 grouping or a cluster of units rather than all of 19 the units to serve that load and to see how much of 20 an effect that has the energy consumption. The 21 issue there is that if you assume all of the units 22 are on a low load (inaudible), so if you cluster

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 that, it would be less than that to occur. 2 On the fan speed for heating, again, 3 we're running it now at high speed as opposed to 4 low speed. On the indoor fan -- this is another 5 thing that we've changed that had a pretty 6 significant effect. Before the NOPR, we had that 7 correlated to the (inaudible) temperature, and so 8 when you dropped the ambient temperature low 9 enough, you were (inaudible) assumptions. So now 10 we have that as a function of stage, and that has 11 taken care of that problem. 12 And then finally one thing, again, we 13 discussed last week and which we've done is thanks 14 to the folks at Navigant, they provided us with the 15 performance data for these units that they modeled 16 at higher (inaudible) pressures, which again, as 17 you'll see later, has a significant impact on the 18 fan energy use. It really increases it over what 19 -- over what's in the test (inaudible). So these 20 are the things, again, that we've done so far. 21 The other thing that we've done is look 22 at economizer (inaudible). Last week I stated that

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 we wouldn't have enough time to change those loads, 2 even if we wanted to, for producing results for 3 this meeting, but, you know, I'm flipping all the 4 way basically to the end of the presentation. It's 5 this slide where -- 86, and it speaks to the 6 economizer issue where those types of cooling loads 7 have been (inaudible) and I presented a table in 8 last week's presentation that did not take into 9 account the weighting of the buildings that is 10 representative to the city for those buildings, so 11 you come out with a different conclusion when you 12 don't weight, so this shows the weighting. It 13 shows that for the 1033 blast building sample that 14 we're using in the analysis, on a cooled square 15 footage basis, roughly about 35 percent of it, of 16 this cooled square footage uses economizers. Last 17 week we were looking at numbers which indicated the 18 opposite of that, but that was because the building 19 sample was not weighted properly. And again, those 20 are -- those are, yes, actually 36 percent. 21 And the last set of columns just shows 22 for those buildings that are economized and not

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 economized what the cooling load is for support, 2 but just to get an indication of whether or not the 3 economizers are being -- are being effected at 4 reducing cooling load, at least looking at it this 5 way, and, you know, on a national basis, it does 6 reduce cooling load, but there are certainly parts 7 of the country on a regional basis where it 8 doesn't. So that's just back to where it just 9 doesn't make sense to use the economizer in that 10 region of the country, but anyway... 11 So then speaking mostly to whether or not 12 the blast building sample has the right amount of 13 squared -- cooled square footage that has 14 economizers, we started looking at other CBECs. The 15 last building sample is based upon the '95 CBEC, 16 so, again, looking at '99, 2003. In the 2012, it's 17 trickling out so we get to see those numbers as 18 well, and because the 2012 doesn't have a 19 micro-data set yet, we only have a certain type of 20 information provided, particularly, the square 21 footage that's cooled 50 percent by packaged units 22 where 50 percent are greater, we -- we're looking

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 at that particular criteria -- criterion on past 2 aging CBECs so we can see how that might change, as 3 well as the packaged cool -- the units -- square 4 footage that's cooled with packaged units, 50 5 percent or more square footage with economizers. 6 Making sure to focus on the fractions 7 here, at least looking at these fractions, it 8 indicates to me that a blast building sample, at 9 least in terms of the number of buildings with 10 economizers, have got it about right. 11 It is increasing, right, the fraction of 12 cooled square footage that is being served by 13 economizers has increased since 1995, but when you 14 look at the square footage with economizers that's 15 also cooled 50 percent or more with packaged 16 cooling, those numbers are a little bit more -- I 17 would say more stable. I'm noting that the last 18 number there is derived, assuming that 80 percent 19 of the economized -- new economized square footage 20 is in buildings where the packaged AC is cooling at 21 least half the space. 22 Again, I think this is addressing the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 issue whether or not the fraction of cooled square 2 footage is correct in the blast building sample 3 that we're using, and I would say roughly it is. 4 So that's all we've brought to the table 5 for this meeting to talk about this issue. So I'd 6 open it up to... 7 MR. LORD: A couple of questions. I 8 mean, the 36 percent, is that before you 9 (inaudible) them, 30 percent of them? 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. No, it's 11 (inaudible). 12 MR. LORD: Okay. So you're saying it's 13 36 percent with a 30 percent (inaudible) on those? 14 Yeah, I went back and I checked that 15 (inaudible). I show (inaudible) if you follow the 16 code, it's 89.9 percent of the (inaudible). Now, 17 some of you may say, well, that's (inaudible), but 18 actually the IDC has more strict requirements on 19 economizers than (inaudible). It actually requires 20 another (inaudible). 21 We went back and looked at our data and 22 we're more to the 75 percent. The AHRI doesn't

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 have the data done yet. They're still processing 2 it. And the reason I'm so focussed on economizers 3 is the other products you don't have on your list 4 and keep pushing it off the list is, your low 5 profiles just don't look right. You know, I see 6 all these loads down at -- like Chicago, you have a 7 30 percent load at zero degree on some of those 8 buildings. I mean, that's where economizers are 9 going to work. I mean, that much load on a 10 building just doesn't look right, especially -- 11 those things should be in heating by that time, so, 12 you know, the combination of having these really 13 low loads at very low ambience and then not using 14 economizers is kind of a (inaudible). I mean, you 15 know, it's putting a lot of emphasis on very low 16 capacity, low speed fans, and then you (inaudible). 17 I think you're pointing at some savings that really 18 aren't going to be there in the real world. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I have -- you know, a 20 little bit of what Dick was saying, the example of 21 the Chicago building, I think this is (inaudible) 22 always maintained that the economizer wasn't

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 working in that particular model and that's why you 2 were seeing that problem. And so because we can't 3 go back and look at that blast model, it's not 4 necessary that we can't really figure out whether 5 that's the case of that particular (inaudible), and 6 I guess it's a question we'll never know, but that 7 was my assumption when I looked at that particular 8 model was assuming that the economizer was broken. 9 MR. LORD: It's not just -- I looked at 10 all the ones he gave me. Every single one of them 11 the economizer is not working right. 12 You know, Greg and I have gone back and 13 forth, you know, we talked some this morning, you 14 know, I'm nervous about the way we generated these 15 low profiles. If we used an energy profile, we'd 16 try to back it up. It just doesn't add up with all 17 the low profiles I've seen in my career. 18 You know, I know what Greg's done and we 19 just confirmed that -- I thought he was doing 20 something wrong, but we confirmed it was right. 21 Just something doesn't look right to generate that 22 much load at low ambience on old buildings. It just

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 doesn't make sense. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: So it is essentially 3 (inaudible) is that what -- or you're not sure what 4 it's doing? 5 MR. LORD: No, it's definitely going to 6 show -- it's going to show increased energy usage 7 and then when you start playing with things like 8 two-speed fans and variable-speed fans, it's going 9 to show you a lot more benefit than you're really 10 going to get. That's my point. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So, though, if it's in 12 the base-case and then the standards case is that 13 since you're using both in the base-case and the 14 standards case is that you'll have more energy 15 savings, but it seems like we'll see some of the 16 same effects, just the higher technology and the 17 higher standard level is just going to give you 18 more benefit. Is that what you're getting at? 19 MR. LORD: It's primarily because of the 20 fan speed (inaudible). You know, if everything had 21 a fixed speed, there wouldn't be a difference, but 22 as you start to reduce the speed at all these

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 really, really low loads -- I mean, if you look at, 2 you know, weighting factors, your weighting factors 3 are significantly skewed for low loads, so it makes 4 low-load capacity machines, coupled with oversized 5 machines pushes everything down to low loads. You 6 know, if I believed what you guys had, I would 7 regenerate the IER equation to significantly change 8 the weighting factor. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, one of the things 10 I think too is, I think part of the problem with 11 everything (inaudible) it's not necessarily the 12 analysis, but that testing procedure for the AHRI 13 is for how they rate for equipment and how energy 14 is actually used, particularly at the external side 15 of pressure, I think kind of favors more of this 16 fan energy in saving energy; however, the test 17 procedure doesn't really necessarily drive in that 18 direction, and it seems a little bit -- that's the 19 paradigm or the -- 20 MR. LORD: Not really. The reason we 21 came up with -- particularly we came up with IER, 22 which is shown in DOE-challenging industry, it

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 makes you start to look at low load, and this is 2 why the two-speed fan came out of (inaudible). And 3 I agree statics are higher. You can also find 4 statics that are low where you have free discharge 5 which are all your (inaudible) but, you know, the 6 average statics are higher than we rate. It would 7 be nice to fix those some day, but, you know, we 8 have this policy you can't go backwards. We're 9 damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. I 10 mean, a lot of us have said we should change, but 11 we can't. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think one of the 13 things that this analysis is surveying for is some 14 sort of sensitivity, you know, perhaps taking those 15 blast buildings with economizers, yes, with 16 economizers, and perhaps removing the low load 17 points to see what sort of effect that has on the 18 energy use of (inaudible) cost. 19 So again, we've been focussing over the 20 last week just to get the primary analysis, which 21 will be saying -- but I think that will probably 22 address, to a large extent, what sort of effect,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 you know, these low loads are having on the 2 analysis. 3 MR. STARR: I did have one last question 4 about that. It's really not your analysis, but the 5 next analysis going forward, in terms of equipment 6 sizing that's basically going to show equipment, 7 you will match up the loads to the exact stuff that 8 comes out of your loads and equipment will be sized 9 to fit that or is there an oversize impactors, so 10 you have -- let's say you have a 20 -- or a 17-ton 11 load for a building, but equipment is only 12 available in 20 tons, so is that reflected in the 13 analysis -- the post -- or the processing 14 (inaudible) or does that just happen at the blast 15 model level and it's not just there? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, just a 17 reminder, the blast calculates the system capacity 18 for the building based upon the design temperature, 19 and then it includes oversized impactors on top of 20 that, so -- 21 MR. STARR: So that's where you see 22 energy usage there?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, right, so that's 2 what dictates what sort of part-load condition 3 you're in, right, is the calculation of that system 4 capacity. 5 MR. STARR: Yeah, I went back and checked 6 some of his runs, you know, we have (inaudible). I 7 found one that was undersized and ones that were 25 8 almost 30 percent oversized, so it goes back to the 9 original blast assumptions, whatever the equipment 10 size is. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 12 So is Greg's suggestion for sensitivity a 13 fine way to go? I mean, we've been -- we've been 14 passing this volleyball over the net here for the 15 better part of six weeks, if I recall, so... 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, one of the 17 things I've been trying to -- trying to maybe put 18 to bed here is this issue about the fraction of the 19 cooled square footage with economizers, right, 20 because I think that was up for some debate, and 21 just, again, looking at the most recent CBEC 22 statement, again, it seems to be in line with the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 percentages of the blast sample. 2 I mean, I could say there has been an 3 increase in the amount of square footage being 4 economized. It just kind of got to the point of, 5 you know, being all that different than what we're 6 using in the blast sample. 7 The other point, which is, you know, 8 below the load itself, right? Again, that's sort 9 of proposing that some sort of sensitivity be done 10 on what we have from the blast simulations to see 11 what sort of effect it has on the energy 12 consumption. 13 MR. LORD: This is Dick Lord. 14 Yeah, I'd like to get -- the sensitivity, 15 there's probably nothing we can do on the low 16 profiles. You know, I'll go back and look at it on 17 some 1980 models from (inaudible) to see if I get 18 the same shapes. 19 My concern on the economizers is, you 20 know, over the years we keep expanding economizers, 21 and the reason we keep expanding economizers -- I 22 can show you guys the curve -- if you look at some

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 of the cities in like zone 5, you're talking 20, 30 2 percent energy savings, so, you know, economizers 3 have gone from larger sizes. They didn't used to be 4 in zone 3-A, 4-A, they're now in those zones. By 5 the time we get to 2018, 2019, hopefully they 6 should be there. Hopefully we've fixed all the 7 economizer problems with all the work that Title 24 8 has done. I don't usually like to compliment Title 9 24, but they've actually done some -- some good 10 work, you know, forcing us to do things. It's just 11 these are very, very low economizer numbers. 12 MR. STARR: It's like (inaudible) 80 13 percent to do stuff. Does that seem like a 14 reasonable -- 15 MR. LORD: No. It's 36. I mean, if 80 16 percent do, I don't -- 17 MR. STARR: (Inaudible). 18 MR. LORD: I trust you. 19 MR. STARR: When you said it earlier, I 20 don't know -- when you say you weighted the sample, 21 maybe you can restate that point. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: What are you asking for?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 MR. STARR: So earlier you had talked 2 about -- it was when you had the 39 percent and you 3 had the little (inaudible) up and you were saying 4 that the new -- 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, let me go over 6 that. 7 MR. STARR: There it is. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm taking this -- 9 the 9 billion in square footage that's being 10 economized since 2003, it's saying that 80 percent 11 of that is in buildings that are 50 percent or more 12 with packaged AC and then assigning it to that -- 13 to here, right, to get this square footage and 14 then, in turn, getting that percentage, so it's a 15 -- it's a -- it's a flat-out assumption. I just 16 took a high percentage of this new economized 17 square footage, assigned it to this category to see 18 what sort of percentage I would get here, looking 19 at whether or not, you know, that the 30 percent 20 number that we're seeing in the (inaudible) was 21 reasonable or not. 22 MR. STARR: Maybe Dick can answer this.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 Those two columns he's got out there, the 2 5.36 and the 3.98, are those -- what's -- I don't 3 know -- your 90.1 models, do they have that 4 information? 5 MR. LORD: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of 6 what 90.1 shows you for condensate by climate zone. 7 MR. STARR: But does it have it per 8 square foot? 9 MR. LORD: I can go back and calculate it 10 per square foot. I just -- this is what we did to 11 justify that. 12 MR. STARR: Well, wouldn't that help -- 13 help out with understanding the effect of 14 economizers or not, right, if -- I mean, I 15 (inaudible) your 90.1 models are going to probably 16 show more, right, than those numbers, I would 17 guess? 18 MR. LORD: Actually, you guys have more 19 load per square foot -- that's the other thing I 20 don't like about your model -- in cooling. 21 MR. STARR: Well, here's a (inaudible) 22 probably just solve this stuff today, right? Maybe

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 you can go back and look at your models or what 2 he's done up here and see how it matches up with 3 the 90.1 models and see if it's going to change the 4 analysis because it's really the relative scale of 5 these things. I mean, in other words, if he 6 increases more economizer savings, it will 7 basically reduce the total -- or the total energy 8 use, right, essentially? 9 MR. LORD: Yeah, yeah. 10 MR. STARR: But it might favor 11 technologies that are fan-driven technologies and 12 that's where you might get a skew in the analysis; 13 in other words, it would tend to favor the higher 14 (inaudible) levels? 15 MR. LORD: The economizers (inaudible) 16 90.1 is a two-speed economizer. (Inaudible) model 17 that, you know, 90.1 requires you run a low-speed 18 fan until they come (inaudible). But you know, 19 once you have an economizer, you know, the 20 difference between EL-1 and EL-4, it kind of 21 doesn't make a difference unless you have a 22 two-speed fan. The other thing is, it doesn't

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 reduce your overall energy savings. Instead of 11 2 quads, you get 7 quads. That's the big deal about 3 it. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, in these next 5 couple of slides, even after this issue of 6 (inaudible) option and perhaps, you know, how 7 quickly the uptake is in something like that 8 (inaudible) into building codes, and this is 9 straight from DOE, and it's show this map of -- the 10 blue indicates that those states are pulling in a 11 more recent energy code into -- into their building 12 codes. It was pulling in, what did I say, 90.1, 13 2010, 2012? 14 You know, yellow states indicate a prior 15 version of that, and the green states a prior 16 version to that. So actually, that's the most 17 recent version. I'm sorry, the green are the -- is 18 the most recent version, and then the white are 19 just probably the oldest or, sort of, no code at 20 all. So again, it gives an idea of how quickly the 21 uptake is, right? And this is as of 2015. 22 MR. LORD: Yeah, it typically takes -- I

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 did a study on this once. It typically takes about 2 8 years to get to an 80 percent (inaudible). So I'm 3 sure the states like what I lived in, Tennessee, we 4 don't believe in codes. We don't believe in sex 5 either, so -- 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why are you -- oh, yeah, 8 that's why. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. LORD: Yeah, I mean, the thing to 11 keep in mind too is (inaudible) are pretty close on 12 this equipment. They tend to have the same 13 economizer requirements, the same efficiency 14 requirements, so -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: A couple of years decline? 16 MR. LORD: Usually, yeah, we try to force 17 them into each other, so... 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, the compliance 19

-- 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, the same amount of 21 (inaudible). The other part of the equation is to 22 (inaudible) how compliant are these buildings, and

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 this is actually a study that John actually 2 commissioned LDNL to do to try to get an answer to 3 that question. Not so much -- of course, it's 4 mostly after the cost compliance rather than actual 5 compliance ratings, but before you can do the cost 6 compliance, you have to sort of understand what 7 you're dealing with here, and this is -- this is 8 just some results. I'm showing, you know, 9 compliance rates in four -- you know, four 10 buildings, the building sample that you see there 11 in the second-to-last column, so -- and then an 12 explanation of what exactly I knew on compliance 13 rates. 14 So again, it just indicates that, you 15 know, by no means do you have 100 percent 16 compliance out there in buildings, even though you 17 might have a code that's on the books, right, so... 18 MR. STARR: One of the things I wanted to 19 potentially look at, you know, you're talking about 20 the failure rate of economizers at 33 percent. 21 Well, I think Meg sent you one last week that we 22 have a higher number than that, and it would be

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 helpful to know kind of the sensitivity analysis 2 around the -- and I don't know -- first of all, I 3 should ask, is it possible to do a sensitivity 4 analysis understanding the failure rate or is that 5 stuck in the blast model? Or is there a way to do 6 that to see how it changes; in other words, if the 7 plans -- if the (inaudible) goes above 33 percent 8 or it goes below and seeing how that makes a 9 difference or if it makes a difference at all. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, and we have the 11 method of (inaudible) economizer method in any 12 building, regardless of whether or not we think the 13 economizers work, so, I mean, that maybe is an 14 extreme, sort of, sensitivity to do -- 15 MR. STARR: I was thinking in the 16 (inaudible) that the square -- the cooling per 17 square foot that you have, that's the kind of 18 analysis I was talking about. Yeah, that 5.36 and 19 3.98; in other words, if you change -- is there a 20 way to change the economizer to get those numbers 21 to change or is that imbedded in the blast model? 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: The 30 percent failure

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 rate is imbedded in the blast model. I guess what 2 I was trying to say is that in post-processing of 3 the economized buildings because if those loads are 4 in question, right, if we just post-process those 5 and remove these low loads, we can come up with a 6 new -- you know, 3.98 value, you know, when we do 7 that to see what sort of impact that has. 8 MALE SPEAKER: That's probably going to 9 work or not. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you know, I'm 11 saying yes. I mean, that's why we couldn't do it 12 for this meeting, right, but it may have to become 13 priority. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 15 And I think, again, we keep, you know, 16 hitting the ball over the net here. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Eventually I'm going to 19 spike it or somebody's going to spike it. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're going to spike it 21 on my head. 22 (Laughter.)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, honestly, I 2 mean, we keep talking -- we understand the issue 3 and we keep talking about it. Let's just make a 4 decision about how we want to do this with a 5 reasonable sensitivity to get -- to me, I think, 6 two issues, I think, it's raising -- if I 7 mischaracterize (inaudible). 8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so by 2020, or 10 whatever, we're assuming the standard kicks in, you 11 think that number should be -- given all the data 12 we see up here and the adoption rates of codes, the 13 compliance rates of codes, you know, to me, I see 14 this number not changing very quickly in the 15 building stock. 16 MR. LORD: Maybe I'll answer it another 17 way, John. If you took all the money we're going 18 to invest in copper in this area and put it into 19 making sure equipment runs well on the roof, you'd 20 save more energy. You know, that gets into the 21 whole thing like what (inaudible) how do you 22 enforce compliance?

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, they do that. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: What's most important is 3 about the starting point, right, because as you'll 4 see in the later analysis that Katie will present, 5 you know, we -- we are assuming that the building 6 is actually getting more efficient over time, which 7 we're not stating exclusively what that's getting 8 to, right, but I can only assume that maybe 9 economizers are part of that, right? 10 MR. LORD: Right. So that's a good 11 point, right, so the baseline has this what they 12 call (inaudible), but like Greg says, it's not just 13 better windows and insulation, it's all about how 14 the building is maintained and operating, which 15 includes economizers, so we need to be careful 16 about chiseling away a lot of the baseline use over 17 time due to these autonomous improvements that are 18 unrelated to the equipment, so we need to isolate 19 these things, so be careful about the math here. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 21 I want to focus on just a piece of that 22 that Dick has eluded to. The sense is that Title

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 24 has forced a reinvention of the economizer 2 itself that we're now seeing rack and pinion 3 (inaudible) as to these crazy rods and things like 4 that. Has -- has CEC or anyone else just looked at 5 the new generation of economizers to see what their 6 failure rate is? 7 MR. LORD: Part of the problem, Harvey, 8 is, we keep going back to the 2003 study that John 9 (inaudible). Nobody has ever gone back up and 10 updated the study. We keep referencing the same 11 data. Now, you'll see a new report that comes out 12 in 2014, but you'll read it and it still references 13 the original data. 14 MALE SPEAKER: We should go back and do 15 that sometime. 16 MR. SACHS: But just out of the issue 17 here is that we're (inaudible) sensitivity analysis 18 because we simply haven't looked at the performance 19 of that new generation that's being advertised. 20 MR. LORD: But, Harvey, I'll bring up the 21 same issue as you. When you look at the original 22 report that was done, it wasn't just economizers.

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 It was low air flow. It's was low charge. There 2 was a whole slew of things that don't work right on 3 buildings that we've got to fix one of these days. 4 MR. STARR: Well, I think part of the 5 thing -- this is Louis. 6 You know, part of the problem with 7 economizers is not so much -- there is a certain 8 amount (inaudible) that would be an example. Now 9 they're using gears instead, but there's a lot of 10 things that the people at the other end are 11 disabling stuff in order to make it not work, and 12 so that's why when these numbers come back, it's 13 fairly complex things that are happening with the 14 economizer and a lot of things can go wrong with it 15 in different places so you can't fix those points 16 in failure, but then a lot of times you have people 17 cutting a piece of cardboard out in order to -- 18 there's nothing you're going to be able to do to 19 stop that from happening, and that's why, you know, 20 when they say it was 33 percent, in my mind, that's 21 a low number. In reality, as you get further along 22 in time, that number is a much higher number,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 108 1 closer to 60 percent, so between zero and 65 is 33 2 percent, so in a way, they may have reached the 3 number that's between what we -- we're talking 4 about here. I don't know. I guess -- I think it's 5 less about the equipment, the (inaudible) of the 6 equipment. It's more just about people overriding 7 it and not paying for things. 8 MR. LORD: A couple of comments on that. 9 We found in those studies that a lot of people will 10 disconnect economizers. That's actually an energy 11 savings. (Inaudible) and we keep ignoring that 12 part, but, you know, the other thing too -- 13 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). 14 MR. LORD: But the other thing you've got 15 to keep in mind too is, the trouble with 16 economizers, you have 100 percent backup, so if the 17 economizer is not there, you still have cooling 18 presumably (inaudible). That's the issue you face. 19 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen from Rheem. 20 We obviously -- we disagree on this 21 number for good reasons. So since we're in a 22 negotiation, let's negotiate.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 109 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I have one 2 suggestion before (inaudible) perhaps. So Dick has 3 some numbers, that 5.36 and 3.98. One of the 4 things that Greg has suggested is this sensitivity 5 analysis. If you were to look to see how that 6 effects things, just not going back and changing 7 economizers, but adjusting those numbers, you can 8 do that fairly easily and see how that affects 9 things. And then if Dick comes with some other 10 numbers and it's -- and then if you can see how his 11 numbers are -- I mean, you can get a sense. You 12 know, you won't be able to get an exact number, but 13 if we're talking about variable energy, then it 14 doesn't make any difference. 15 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie from 16 Lawrence Berkeley Lab. 17 I would suggest, first of all, that -- 18 that -- something that's fairly straightforward to 19 do is to segregate the energy savings by 20 temperature range so we can look at who the energy 21 (inaudible) 60 or 65 degrees (inaudible) because 22 I'm not personally convinced that the low loads are

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 110 1 contributing a large amount of energy. And I think 2 we also need to be aware that the fan load is not 3 -- the fan load is sort of an output of a blast 4 simulation model because you have a fraction of an 5 hour that a fan is running, and I don't think that 6 that really has a great deal to do either with the 7 presence of an economizers, so -- so I can start 8 with a calculation that does that segregation and 9 then, you know, we can see to what extent the low 10 load economizer versus non-economizer is an issue 11 because I think it's -- it's dangerous to take too 12 much from -- we have over 1,000 buildings and we've 13 provided hourly loads for, I think, 7 or 8, and I 14 don't want to get too far down this road based on 15 that -- that small sample. 16 So anything that we do, we have to, you 17 know, think of it in terms of looking at the entire 18 sample and coming up with some measure that we can 19 do across the entire sample. 20 And then the other suggestion that Greg 21 made is, you know, we can go to some minimum load 22 and just see what we have, and so instead of saying

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 111 1 a load is like 2 percent of the max, we'll just 2 drop it to zero. And again, if you want to give me 3 a number that you're happy with, I can go and run 4 that sensitivity. And I suspect, again, that since 5 overall energy consumption scales with the heat 6 removed from the building for the cooling load, 7 you're not necessarily going to see a huge impact. 8 So I think that rather than walking 9 around trying to reproduce loads, which is really 10 not a very realistic objective, I think, you know, 11 just giving us some cutoffs on either temperature 12 ranges or a minimum load that you think is 13 reasonable and we can just run that. 14 MR. STARR: Katie, there's actually two 15 problems we're kind of intermixing here. One is 16 the economizer which has impacts over all energy. 17 The low-load impacts technology, so if you go to 18 variable-speed fans, we get a lot more benefit with 19 these low load (inaudible) because you're running a 20 huge number of hours at very low speeds. When you 21 compare it against the fixed speed, you get 22 significant energy, coupled with raising the static

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 112 1 up, which I'm not against, it makes it even bigger. 2 So there's two problems intermixed that we're 3 talking about. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: And I think some of the 5 things that Katie was suggesting were just to see 6 how much the load actually is occurring at these, 7 you know, relatively low -- low ambient 8 temperatures, but some of the files we've been 9 looking at show a lot of load, and that would 10 probably provide some information that would, sort 11 of, put a scale on what we're talking about here. 12 MR. STARR: I feel like that Chicago 13 building you gave had a huge number of (inaudible) 14 and very low loads. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 16 MR. STARR: As well as the first one we 17 looked at, building 29, that had a lot of load at 18 very low (inaudible). 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, again, I 20 keep on coming back to this idea of, you know, at 21 least taking down the price a little bit, taking 22 the buildings right now and the blast sample that

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 113 1 has already (inaudible) and doing this -- just as 2 Katie suggested, you know, picking an ambient 3 temperature where we just cut off that load and 4 re-process that data and see what sort of effect it 5 has on the energy consumption. 6 It's something that we can do simply -- 7 you know, relatively simply, I should say, to get 8 an idea of how much of an affect we're talking 9 about here. 10 MR. LORD: We can take a look at it. You 11 know, we can sit down and look at the data in 12 California for the last three weeks, three 13 different times, so I'll stop and see you. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: Does the working group want 15 Katie to do that? 16 Yes, Louis? 17 MR. STARR: I'm just trying to figure out 18 how much work that is and will it get us closer to 19 where we need to -- 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, you know, 21 it's over 1,000 buildings where we would have to 22 alter the load -- the load unit on, right, and then

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 114 1 re-process the load. There was a tremendous amount 2 of effort to get to where we are today for the 3 7-and-a-half ton and 15-ton results for both energy 4 consumption and costs, right, so we now have, you 5 know, the code to be able to do this processing 6 again. So the effort -- the real effort is -- is 7 -- is going to those building where we're going to 8 alter the load so we can re-process them. 9 MR. STARR: You would also drop out your 10 economizer assumption, failure rate, by -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, yeah, in some 12 sense -- you know, it's sort of an extreme. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: No, we have no idea -- 14 there's no indication in the data that we have 15 which buildings economizers have actually failed, 16 so you can try to guess; but again, I don't really 17 think it's worth trying to dig into that stuff. If 18 you don't like the low loads, we'll drop the low 19 loads. It's much easier just to do that. But we're 20 not going to be able to come up with some imitation 21 of economizer performance with what we have. 22 MR. STARR: Well, my concern is, is that

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 115 1 if we do the analysis and it is a lot, then that 2 becomes -- you know, I guess there's an engineering 3 approach and then there's a negotiation approach. 4 I want 4, you want 2, we'll go to 3. I don't like 5 that approach. I'd rather, you know, the 6 engineering decision based upon what it is rather 7 than just taking a number and dividing it by 2 or 8 halfway between those numbers, so, in my mind, 9 there is some re-analysis that sort of has to have 10 some base assumption that there's -- you know, if 11 the analysis is going to be done, there needs to be 12 some engineering -- you know, something that 13 approximates some kind of failure rate of 14 economizers. 15 In my mind, 33 percent is too low. In 16 Dick's mind is too high. So now we're going to go 17 back -- we're going to go back and look at some 18 analyses where it assumed zero, which is definitely 19 too low. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, I guess, you 21 know, looking at the case with basically no -- 22 assumption of no economizer failure, right, you

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 116 1 know, it's not probably realistic, right, but it 2 would at least put a point out there -- you know, I 3 guess you're nervous about that point, but I guess 4 (inaudible) from Katie and I is that we don't think 5 a lot of the loads are actually occurring at these 6 low ambient temperatures, as well, so I mean -- 7 MR. STARR: I don't need to be concerned. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So anyway, I'm just 10 thinking that any -- given the time that we have, 11 right, doing -- taking -- doing this is, I would 12 say, relatively straightforward that it could be 13 done to see what (inaudible) we're talking about 14 here. 15 I mean, I'm getting resistance here, so 16 -- you know, I'd like this proposal -- 17 MALE SPEAKER: Why don't you take a 18 break, how about that? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and what I'm 21 hearing is a cry to do whatever sensitivity 22 analysis we can so we're bounding the uncertainties

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 117 1 and then we're going to have to negotiate, right? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I just wanted to get back 3 on -- we're bounding with zero, right, which we 4 know is not a reality bound, so I think we need to 5 be a little bit careful here about how we bound it. 6 I'm willing to -- obviously willing to do the -- 7 have the team run the analysis to get us to think 8 about things, but, you know, I agree with Louis 9 here because if zero is not really -- I mean, we 10 know that's not the answer. I mean, we can all say 11 that. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, it's easy enough 13 for us -- I mean, again, what we have in the blast 14 is a set of buildings that are not economized and 15 economized. We can take the ones that are 16 economized and do things to it, right? One of the 17 things that we're suggesting is just to wholesale 18 cut out this part of the load, right, you know, at 19 a certain ambient temperature. 20 Again, now we can apply then a 30 21 percent, you know, sort of, on top of that, to say 22 that's not going to happen. That's easiest enough

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 118 1 to do, right? 2 MR. STARR: There are things you can just 3 apply a random failure rate of inside the 33 4 percent and then you -- instead of using zero, you 5 have -- I don't know how -- you know, I don't work 6 with the software, but it seems like you could -- 7 of the 1,033 buildings you have, pick a random 100 8 and -- 1,033 of them that would have a certain 9 failure rate and see what that number is. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Did you want to say 11 something? 12 MS. COUGHLIN: If there's no -- I guess 13 you can do the same thing (inaudible), right? You 14 just take the failure rate to zero and it could be 15 -- you know, we could do it with no failures and we 16 can do it with all of them off and then -- 17 MR. STARR: Right, right. 18 MS. COUGHLIN: -- and then somewhere in 19 between is reality, right, so -- 20 MR. STARR: That's not linear, right? 21 MS. COUGHLIN: In this approach it's 22 going to be -- the change is going to be linear,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 119 1 close enough; but again, you know, I'm concerned 2 that there's the delusion of false precision here, 3 right? We're working with very approximate modeling 4 and very approximate information, so going to the 5 enormous amount of trouble to manipulate those 6 numbers in detail, I don't think, is necessarily a 7 good use of our time. 8 So we're going to get two numbers and the 9 answer is going to be somewhere in between them, 10 and, you know, I think -- hopefully those two 11 numbers won't be too far apart, but I think we 12 should at least look at that before we continue to 13 talk about it, and I think we're going settle on 14 (inaudible). 15 MR. LORD: Maybe get back to what John 16 was saying. You know, I think there's been a lot 17 of improvements on these equipment models, so we 18 take all of those equipment models and we run them 19 through the model with the current (inaudible). 20 Then you do the sensitivity and let's say, okay, 21 let's add more economizers. Does it change the 22 answer? Do you get a quicker payback or a shorter

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 120 1 payback? That's what I think you guys are looking 2 for so then you can go negotiate on that. I mean, 3 if it changes the payback from 20 years to 10 4 years, that's a big change. If it changes it from 5 3 years to 3.2, you don't worry about it. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: The only thing I would 7 say about all this is that we should also have 8 something with a higher failure rate. If we're 9 going to go to zero, we should have something on 10 the other side, so we're not starting at 33 to zero 11 and to be negotiating between those two points, and 12 it's not a big deal to go to the higher number. It 13 seems like we should at least have two points of 14 zero and 66 and somewhere in lies there the number. 15 MR. LORD: I still don't understand the 16 33 percent because when you look at what's required 17 by the standard say by the year 2019, it should be 18 more like 80/90 percent. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: That's -- that's -- 20 MR. LORD: It just doesn't make sense. 33 21 percent does not add up. 22 MS. HOFFMAN: These numbers are -- so the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 121 1 economizers that are in the sample are just as CBEC 2 (phonetic) says it is and not -- 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 4 MS. HOFFMAN: -- (inaudible), right? And 5 then the failure rate is 30 percent of those still 6 (inaudible). And then, I mean, here we have an 7 estimate of the economizer that's based on CBECs 8 2012 where they did not kind of provide the 9 detailed data of buildings which used -- which used 10 packaged cooling and have economizers in the, sort 11 of, separate buckets, so that's where Greg had to 12 make an assumption. 13 So there's a percentage of buildings with 14 economizers. There's a percentage of floor space 15 with economizers, and there's a percentage of floor 16 space with packaged cooling, and we just kind of 17 multiply them together to get that estimate, but 18 there are a lot of economizers in buildings that 19 don't use the packaged cooling, so that's another 20 thing to keep in mind here. 21 MR. LORD: Well, the other thing is 22 there's a big change in economizer requirements in

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 122 1 2010. That's when we added in zone 3-A, 2-A, you 2 know, I did all the justifications so they make 3 sense. So some of these older buildings didn't 4 have to have economizers. 4-A here, you didn't 5 have to have economizers. 6 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 7 MR. LORD: You do now. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And so -- 9 MR. LORD: So in the future when we -- 10 you know, when we get to this that's going to 11 require economizers. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. And so we have -- 13 again, I mean, we have these new construction 14 cooling load correction factors that we took out of 15 AEO that show, you know, 20 to 40 percent reduction 16 in cooling loads for floor space constructed 17 between 2013 and 2018. So that was already in the 18 analysis. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's why we need -- 20 that's where I was going to (inaudible) so we've 21 got to be really careful because if we're going to 22 back stuff out, we're going to back that stuff out,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 123 1 too, and then all of the sudden you're back to 2 where you started, so -- remember the baseline has 3 this autonomous improvement in building operations, 4 including economizers, but Katie just -- thank you 5 for rattling off the numbers because I didn't have 6 them, but that's a big deal and that continues -- 7 the trend continues, right, through the baseline 8 through the end of the analysis period, so it is 9 doing code catch-up and compliance and all that. 10 We can't necessarily put off (inaudible) 11 economizers, but that would still be a big part of 12 what (inaudible) in there, so we've got to be 13 really careful. 14 MR. STARR: Keep in mind, too, the other 15 thing about economizers, of the 65 percent that 16 have failed, 30 or 40 percent have failed because 17 people have just disabled them. It's not the 18 equipment failing, so that's -- that's why in 2020 19 it's not going to be 80/90 percent the economizers 20 are working, it's because of the percentage that 21 are out there, people are disabling because they 22 don't want them to --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 124 1 MR. LORD: Because it saves energy. 2 MS. HOFFMAN: Instead of (inaudible). 3 MR. STARR: Yeah, so that's -- 4 MR. LORD: That saves energy. 5 MR. STARR: Well, I would say it's -- in 6 a lot of other findings, it doesn't save energy, 7 so... 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, speaking of saving 9 energy, I think we should do that too. We probably 10 should break for lunch and come back and renew -- 11 so it's almost 12:30. What would be the time to 12 return? 1:30, quarter to 2:00? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: 1:30. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: 1:30. Okay. See you all 15 back here at 1:30 rejuvenated or economized in some 16 way. 17 18 19 20 21 (Lunch recess taken.) 22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 125 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to 3 bring it back in here. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Everybody back 5 from lunch? 6 So this is the issue that we left before 7 lunch talking about sensitivity to address the 8 economizing issue. I think everyone digested that 9 over lunch. 10 Not even a chuckle? 11 (Laughter.) 12 MS. HOOTMAN: My God, are you attempting 13 a joke? 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: They were chewing on it. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, God. 17 MR. WINNINGHAM: Perhaps you're 18 economizing -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Anyway, I think there's 20 -- we're starting to get in agreement on doing a 21 sensitivity that will start quantifying sort of the 22 effect of this economizing issue.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 126 1 We're talking with Andrew and Louis on 2 the way back up here and it seems like, you know, 3 I'll let Katie describe it. But, Dick, maybe you 4 can -- 5 MR. LORD: Well, I have just one 6 question. I know all the stuff we've done on the 7 equipment models and that stuff seems to be gelling 8 pretty good. Are you at a point where you're going 9 to turn the crank again here pretty soon? 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, we already turned 11 the crank on some of that 15. I think to try to 12 put this issue to bed, I think what's being called 13 for is some sort of analysis trying to quantify 14 what the impact is; right? 15 MR. LORD: No, what I was saying is get 16 the 15 done, get the sub-mat 15, 30-ton done. 17 Any other changes -- we've got on a 18 couple of the models and one of the place with all 19 the other assumptions we've got (inaudible). Then 20 you can start to say, let's do sensitivity 8C off 21 (inaudible). 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 127 1 MR. LORD: Just find out, you know, 2 what's our numbers at right now. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, yes. You'll see 4 that later this afternoon. 5 MR. LORD: Okay. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Or maybe tomorrow, the 7 seven-and-a-half and 15. 8 MR. LORD: Get the 15 done all the way 9 through the sensitivity analysis, the full -- 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: All the way through 11 flexible cost. So we have 15, but we haven't done 12 30 yet. That comes next week. 13 So why don't you -- Katie, why don't you 14 explain the sensitivity? 15 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. This is Katie. 16 Actually, before doing the sensitivity 17 proposal that I have is to do some more detailed 18 analysis of the interviews. So maybe the energy 19 assumption by cooling (inaudible) in low, medium, 20 and high temperature under temperature bins and 21 looking at economized and non-economized building. 22 And that way we can kind of isolate, you

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 128 1 know, if the issue is the cooling load during hours 2 when the ambient temperature is low, we can 3 increase the -- see how much energy is in that 4 area, and then that will give us a starting point 5 from what quantity to assess and what needs to be 6 done. 7 So we can do that and maybe e-mail you 8 guys the results or something during the week so 9 that you have it before the next meeting. 10 And then as far as the sensitivity goes, 11 I really think that the only thing at this point 12 that we would consider doing is in eliminating 13 those low cooling loads from the economized 14 buildings. But I think once I produce this table 15 that already tells you how much energy is involved 16 in that particular segment of the year, we're going 17 to know pretty much what that effect will be. 18 So sensitivity itself may be -- yeah, 19 pushed downstream quite a while until we deal with 20 other issues. So we'll kind of be able to bracket 21 the effect from this other information. 22 MR. STARR: So I --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 129 1 MS. HOFFMAN: Louis Starr. 2 MR. STARR: Yeah, Louis Starr. So it 3 sounds like you come up with that -- our next 4 meeting is when? I forgot. 5 MR. LORD: Next Wednesday. 6 MR. STARR: Okay. So we don't need to do 7 anything in between. Okay. Great. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're proposing to try 9 to get that information to you. I think it's 10 (inaudible) so you have time (inaudible). 11 All right. I think with that I'll hand 12 it over to Detlef to start talking about the 13 engineering analysis, unless there's other issues 14 on the building. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we need an initial 16 vote on this, like, maybe -- 17 MR. BANTLE: Further -- 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- for the record to do 19 that? 20 MR. BANTLE: So we'll do -- remember from 21 the last meeting: Thumbs up, thumbs sideways, 22 thumbs down on the further more detailed analysis

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 130 1 and then the sensitivity check coming afterwards. 2 Do you have a comment, Louis? 3 MR. STARR: No, no. 4 MR. BANTLE: Let's take a vote of thumbs. 5 (Simultaneous speaking). 6 MALE SPEAKER: I don't think we've done 7 thumbs yet. 8 MR. BANTLE: Oh, we have not done. Okay. 9 So this will be a consensus type of 10 check. If you agree with it, thumbs up. If you're 11 comfortable or abstaining, thumbs sideways. If you 12 do not agree, thumbs down. 13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Just like a 14 very precise statement of what we're doing. 15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes, thank you. Thank 16 you very much. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the sensitivity, 18 Katie's going to describe, it's the same thing. 19 And Dick, I'm sorry, you can't vote here. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. LORD: Thumbs down vote. 22 (Laughter.)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 131 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie. Yeah, I'm 2 proposing -- I'm not proposing to do the 3 sensitivity this week. I'm proposing to take the 4 existing analysis and segregate out the energy used 5 to cooling the fan in different ranges of ambient 6 temperature for economized versus non-economized 7 buildings. So that based on that, you can kind of 8 use that summary information to estimate what the 9 effect would be if we made more drastic assumptions 10 about economized performance. 11 So that's what I'm proposing. And then, 12 based on that information, you know, we can, if 13 necessary, define sensitivity much more explicitly 14 that people will be able to accept as kind of the 15 answer on this issue. 16 MR. LORD: Just one question real quick. 17 Greg, are you going to -- did you 18 convince the (inaudible) to post process the 19 economizer (inaudible). 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I guess the first 21 step we're doing is just looking at the load energy 22 use in these temperature bins to get an idea of how

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 132 1 big that load is. And then if it turns out that 2 it's significant and this group wants to take 3 action on it, then we would do the sensitivity that 4 I would think likely involve processing of some 5 sort. 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) right here. 7 Just take the microphone, pull it near you. 8 MALE SPEAKER: Little closer? 9 FEMALE SPEAKER: Because everybody's 10 quiet except for Jill. (Laughter.) 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Say your name. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MALE SPEAKER: She's also got her mic 14 right there. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: My mother would love that 16 (simultaneous speaking) because I was quiet as a 17 kid. Thank you so much. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Harvey, does that answer 19 your question? 20 MR. SACHS: Yes, it does. Thank you. 21 MR. BANTLE: Any other questions before 22 we take this vote?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 133 1 MALE SPEAKER: Really quick (inaudible) 2 is that for next Wednesday? Is that what's 3 planned? 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, no. The hope is 5 that certainly by next Wednesday, and the hope is 6 to provide you, even before then so everyone has an 7 opportunity to view it before the next meeting. 8 MALE SPEAKER: Thank you. 9 MR. BANTLE: Can we see a show of thumbs 10 on this more in-depth analysis? Okay. Looks like 11 it's unanimous in the room. 12 Any objections from our remote 13 participants? Do we still have our remote 14 participants, Meg and Michael? 15 MS. WALTNER: I vote yes. 16 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Megan is a yes. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Michael from UL, are you 18 there? 19 FEMALE SPEAKER: Mike Terzigni and Mark 20 thumbs up. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Thank you, Michael. 22 FEMALE SPEAKER: And Mike thumbs up.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 134 1 MR. BANTLE: As well. Okay. Take care. 2 Thank you, everybody. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to 4 move back into the -- backwards in the program so 5 that we can move forward. 6 MR. deLASKI: Now, while we're 7 transitioning here -- this is Andrew deLaski. Just 8 two things I wanted to follow up on from our last 9 meeting: One was that we had a series of legal 10 questions for Eric. I know he's not here right 11 now, but maybe when he comes back in we can ask him 12 to give us an update on what they found and where 13 they're at. 14 And I think also I wanted to ask Nick 15 AHRI also some reference this morning to the date 16 they'll start to come in and help give us a date on 17 when the data collection comes in and exercises 18 that. 19 MR. MISLAK: Yeah, we have most the data. 20 There's still a couple of things we're waiting on, 21 so once we get those -- and it won't take much time 22 to put it all together. So hopefully by the end of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 135 1 this week or if not sooner. 2 MR. deLASKI: And that -- so the thing at 3 the end of this week, then, you would be turning 4 that data over to the Department -- 5 MR. MISLAK: Right. 6 MR. deLASKI: -- would be your -- is the 7 action? 8 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. 9 MR. deLASKI: Right. Okay. Great. Thank 10 you. 11 MALE SPEAKER: I'll move the microphone 12 towards me. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hi, I'm Detlef 14 Westphalen and going to be presenting on the CBAS 15 hearing analysis. 16 So before I launch into this, I just 17 wanted to mention something that I didn't really 18 get to get into in the presentation, but is a topic 19 that probably needs to be addressed before we 20 finish the work, and I'll just introduce it here. 21 We can put on some discussion for tomorrow or 22 hopefully we will discuss it now, and that is the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 136 1 issue of the so-called dual duct systems. 2 This is something that, you know, has 3 been under discussion and is in comments from 4 various sources, and we know it was introduced in 5 -- NOPR originally touched on. And I had a comment 6 on potential indications. 7 And ultimately, you know, I think the 8 group needs to decide before we move forward 9 whether, you know, I guess, the proposals coming 10 out of this issue is something. 11 MR. LORD: So just one thing I noticed on 12 the conversion curves. I assume you're adjusting 13 that for the size of the units. It's not the same 14 pressure drop regardless whether it's a 7-ton, a 15 15-ton, or a 30-ton, or if it's the same across -- 16 the same pressure drop across all of those units? 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, why don't I back 18 up and -- back to the ducts. 19 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'd like to 20 have some sense of the magnitude of the dual duct 21 situations, and that's my question, I guess, that 22 leads. Are these 1 percent, 5 percent of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 137 1 installations intend to be in the larger sizes? In 2 other words, should I worry about the cooling 3 ducts? 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: We don't have 5 information about insurance (inaudible). We know 6 that (inaudible) so -- and to potentially provide 7 information if they have any. 8 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. One 9 other thing to consider is double duct isn't 10 included in the test procedure today; correct? 11 So there's nothing that specifies how you 12 task the condenser side, how you set up the task of 13 the condenser side of a double duct. So that's 14 another issue that must be addressed. John said the 15 testing unit is off the table, so that's something 16 to go around. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think Nick and I 18 talked a little bit earlier about this and so, you 19 know, we're open here what to do with these 20 (coughing) carve them out into a product class, set 21 them aside for now, revisit them when we have a 22 test method. Because it'd still be subject to the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 138 1 mandatory standards that exist -- one solution. 2 MR. STARR: So you know for, you know, 3 CBSA, which, actually Navigant does in the 4 Northwest, would do a building sample of 200 5 buildings. So the detail of what kind of systems 6 and stuff is in that. I don't know if you should 7 take that sample and project that. I mean, is that 8 of value to you or not -- that information? 9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that is of great 10 value to me. 11 MR. STARR: So maybe -- I think maybe we 12 could talk and figure out how to do this 13 (simultaneous speaking). 14 Certainly Navigant is the people to talk 15 to about when you try to figure out how to split up 16 (coughing) all the kinds of information that we use 17 for programs and things and somewhat types that 18 help us diminish that information. But I'll talk to 19 you afterwards and see maybe how we can get some of 20 that information out and come to some decision. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 22 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni with

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 139 1 SMACNA with just a comment. As a -- sheet metal 2 association, I wish they were more popular today. 3 I haven't seen a dual duct system, and I quote, 4 "modern," since the -- 10 years or longer. 5 They were popular many, many years ago. 6 So you know, I would say dual duct systems are not 7 commonplace or even popular today. 8 MR. THARP: This is Rusty from Goodman. 9 And I'll say, my company doesn't even make the 10 product. We don't sell it. And my perception is 11 it's very, very low volume, less than 1 percent. 12 This is something actually that was sort 13 of addressed in certification that if your product 14 is designed to be able to handle some additional 15 static on the condenser side, then that won't be 16 tested as long as you offer it as -- with the base 17 model. 18 So the only thing we'd be looking at are 19 the products that are specifically designed only to 20 be applied with double duct, all with the condenser 21 duct all the time. And at that point, I've got to 22 think, is very low. I would guess less than 1

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 140 1 percent, but I have no clue. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 3 We offer a product, but, again, the volume is very 4 small. 5 MALE SPEAKER: I think we were familiar 6 with just the Carrier and there were some smaller 7 companies that -- 8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Right. 9 MALE SPEAKER: -- aren't doing them 10 today. 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Done it as a design 12 specialist. 13 MR. MISLAK: And it is common in the 14 docket from a smaller manufacturer that proposes 15 including it into this product loss. 16 So just a -- I just want to re-clarify 17 that, you know, maybe we should contact that 18 company and get their (inaudible). 19 MALE SPEAKER: (Simultaneous speaking). 20 If it comes up -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So -- so I mean, I think 22 this is something we could vote on just to clear it

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 141 1 off the table as we go forward here. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And we would be voting on 3

-- 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just like a separate 5 product class for these and setting them aside and 6 focus on the standards, negotiations, who's an 7 option. People -- people and product, place. 8 That's a long suggestion. 9 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. So what's 10 the treatment of these products today? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: We treat the statutory 12 standards. 13 MR. deLASKI: So what's your proposal? 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That that stays. But 15 these standards focus on -- 16 MR. deLASKI: So these would have -- so 17 you're saying you're proposing to have the existing 18 statutory standard would continue -- the existing 19 standard in Code today would apply? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 21 MR. deLASKI: But whatever we negotiate 22 here would not apply? Check the --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 142 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Would apply to the 2 equipment -- 3 MR. deLASKI: But then I guess I'd ask 4 the table because we have had a chance to talk 5 about it, and I don't know if anybody wanted to cut 6 in right now, so -- 7 MALE SPEAKER: But in order to comply 8 today, they would actually have to have a waiver, 9 correct, since they're not under the current test 10 procedure? 11 MALE SPEAKER: Well, unless it tested 12 with -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Because it tested at zero 14 static; right? So I guess test them without. 15 That's probably how manufacturing is certifying 16 today is a zero static and no duct. 17 MR. deLASKI: Is that the answer to that 18 question -- Rusty's question? How do these folks 19 certify today? Maybe Bob can answer. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we source the 21 product. So I don't have all the details, but I 22 believe the tests that I have seen on it is without

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 143 1 the duct. So I believe that's how -- 2 MR. deLASKI: Work around -- work around 3 that's been through a waiver or not with a waiver? 4 MR. WHITWELL: No, without a waiver. I'm 5 not aware of a waiver; however, they tested with a 6 duct, but they do have an issue with the higher 7 static motor. So there's -- you know, it's a 8 higher-powered motor on the outdoor side. 9 MR. LORD: Aren't most of these less than 10 5 tons? 11 MR. WHITWELL: Most are -- 12 MR. LORD: Most are, yeah. 13 MR. WHITWELL: -- at least for us. 14 MALE SPEAKER: Can you move in front of 15 the mic? 16 MR. LORD: Yeah, sorry. My question was: 17 A lot of these are below 5 tons, which is outside 18 of this room, anyways. There is a few probably 19 (inaudible). That's a different topic. 20 MALE SPEAKER: I was wondering 21 (simultaneous speaking). 22 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I guess we could

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 144 1 decide at the table. 2 MR. deLASKI: Well, I'd like the 3 opportunity for us to be able to talk about it 4 amongst folks who I typically work with before we 5 -- before you vote on something. 6 MALE SPEAKER: That slide, was that just 7 the -- what that one was on -- 8 MR. STARR: No, the next slide was on 9 first general discussion. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Quick question for Andrew 11 from Hoffman, do you want to deal with it tomorrow? 12 MR. deLASKI: If we can. Is it an urgent 13 issue? 14 MS. HOFFMAN: It's not an urgent issue. 15 We'll just reflect, yeah, that we'll revisit it. 16 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. I mean, just -- you 17 know, we're not -- I think in general we're not 18 concerned about the small sales. The question is: 19 Does it stay small? So I'm going to need to think 20 that through and understand that. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: And just what we heard

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 145 1 from one company is that statutory standards like 2 that 80 percent that they're claiming 80 percent of 3 the product (inaudible) because of the signage. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because the efficiency went 5 up so high that they couldn't -- yeah. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: It was physically -- 7 physically unable -- 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, to get it all in 9 there. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you know, the question 11 remains, the claim is anything higher takes away 12 the product is the claim -- I mean, I'm not 13 specifically talking (inaudible). So the question 14 is what we do about that. 15 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only reason I brought 17 it up is because I don't want to start negotiating 18 and then that comes up as an issue. 19 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, and thank you for 20 flagging it now, and we'll look into it so we can 21 understand it better. But I don't think we really 22 need to talk it through with the big group here.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 146 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Moving on. 2 So this slide introduces some of the 3 issues that we discussed at the last meeting that 4 maybe you can give us some guidance on and discuss 5 this. Provisions that are being implemented and are 6 (inaudible). 7 I haven't rehashed all of the issues that 8 I already dealt with, but certainly, you know, 9 we'll get to some of that. 10 Anyways, why don't we take these down. 11 First of all, the single circuit versus dual 12 circuit, single compressor versus dual compressors. 13 Seven-and-a-half ton baseline 1. The analysis now 14 considers one single and dual compressor sort of 15 the baseline for the seven-and-a-half ton. And we 16 -- some looked further and really found that are no 17 single pressing units in -- oh, it's single 18 pressing units at DL-1, and that's based on 19 (inaudible). 20 So we can take a look at that and it's 21 kind of what we found in these (inaudible). The 22 additional -- what we inquired from that one is

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 147 1 additionally from a shipment distribution and that 2 will be out when they try to assemble their 3 analysis. 4 Next issue is the conversion curves, the 5 cost of performance impact. And for that, we 6 decided on (inaudible) converting to a pressure 7 drop. And that would be required at efficiency 8 level 3 or higher for replacements where the 9 existing wasn't (inaudible). 10 MR. STARR: So that's the question I had 11 about that one. So the .2 is fine, but that's .2 12 depending on the size of the equipment; right? If 13 you had zero CFM, you would have zero pressure 14 drop, not .2. 15 So at a 30-ton, maybe .2, but you have to 16 scale it with the fan walls as you back down the 17 CFM at the lower rates; right? For 18 seven-and-a-half, you'll have less pressure drop 19 then a 15-ton, and then a 30-ton. 20 The same way you're (inaudible) that 21 pressure, it's 1.25 for the bigger sizes and it's 22 .75 for the lower size. So the pressure drop, as

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 148 1 you get the smaller units, is less. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, the way we applied 3 this was .2 full-on air flow and we didn't change 4 that from seven-and-a-half versus 15 versus 30. We 5 did for the given unit in operating a continuous 6 air flow was .2. 7 MR. STARR: Well, perhaps the sheet metal 8 guy, Mark Terzigni, who's online can comment on 9 whether -- 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Mark. 11 MR. STARR: Mark, there we go, Mark. He's 12 probably commented on those relative pressure drops 13 since he's the sheet metal (inaudible) and also 14 whether that should be scaled based upon the amount 15 of CFM. 16 Because normally that would be -- you 17 know, essentially what you're talking about the 18 smaller and bigger unit is the total amount of air 19 as you get to a lesser air flow, the pressure drops 20 tends to be less. 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: The expectation here is 22 that it's not really frictional loss, it's really

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 149 1 dynamic loss. 2 MR. TERZIGNI: Does it effect -- 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. 4 FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is that? 5 MALE SPEAKER: That's Mark. 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is that you, Mark? 7 MALE SPEAKER: That's Mark from -- 8 MR. TERZIGNI: That's Mark Terzigni, the 9 sheet metal guy. 10 (Laughter.) 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you, the sheet 12 metal guy. Let's let you educate us now. 13 MR. STARR: I'd be interested to see what 14 his opinions are on this -- the pressure drops and 15 the difference between a seven-and-a-half, 15, and 16 30-ton whether you will see a similar pressure drop 17 across all those or not. 18 MR. TERZIGNI: For the record, 19 congratulations, you pronounced my last name 20 correctly. Mark works fine. 21 I'm not a sheet metal fabricator, I 22 actually work for SMACNA. I'm an engineer, my

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 150 1 education. 2 But so if you're talking about, quote, 3 "system effect," and you're converting it to a 4 pressure drop of sorts, it's really a function of 5 inlet/outlet condition more than anything, and it's 6 also a potion of the velocity of the air more than 7 the actual air flow itself. 8 So it depends on the size of the opening, 9 let's say, on whether or not you have good inlet or 10 outlet position. So I don't know that the function 11 of the size of the unit effect is what I'm getting 12 at. 13 MR. STARR: Then that -- okay. I'd like 14 to change my opinion, then. 15 So essentially, they always design the 16 outlet velocity in 2,000 increments so the velocity 17 stays the same whether it's at seven-and-a-half, 18 15, or 30-ton unit. So -- and then we start the 19 system in effect. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So -- so Louis, this is 21 Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 22 So since the last meeting, we talked to

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 151 1 our supplier who makes a lot of conversion curves 2 for us, and they have a program that calculates the 3 pressure drop in the curve, and they actually put 4 it on their submittals when they get a bid to 5 provide a conversion curve. 6 And the data that we got from him is that 7 they range from .15 to .7 inches of static 8 depending on configuration and what the inlet and 9 outlet conditions are for the -- for our unit 10 versus the curve that they're managing it to. 11 And so his estimate is that the average 12 would be in the .35 inches range. So somewhat 13 higher than what the number that got thrown out 14 last week. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: He and I would agree; we 16 did the same thing. Jill from Trane, I would 17 agree. 18 MR. STARR: The only thing I -- well, so 19 the number may also be higher, but I would say that 20 those statics they're using are a little bit on the 21 low side, too. So the 1.75 and .75 that they're 22 using at the other site and also -- to some extent.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 152 1 So the percentages of the pressure drop to the 2 total pressure drop that they have. 3 MR. WHITWELL: But I think that it's 4 still the power required to overcome that external 5 static -- additional external -- so -- 6 MR. STARR: You're right. The numbers, 7 yeah. I see what you're saying. 8 MR. WHITWELL: So based on our 9 information, the .2 inches is low, and a number 10 around .35 would be more realistic based on the 11 information that we got from our supplier. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Should that be an issue 13 that goes up for a vote, or -- 14 MR. STARR: I guess that, again, probably 15 isn't necessarily heavy. I guess my thought is, 16 yeah, the pressure drop for the conversion curve 17 probably may be higher than that. 18 The other thing about that is the total 19 static seems like it should be an issue, too. To 20 me, the total static is lower and it should also be 21 adjusted upwards. 22 The problem is, if you're going to have

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 153 1 the higher conversion curve static pressure, but 2 you're not going to just up the totals across the 3 range, it's going to make the higher EL levels not 4 look so good. 5 You're going to have more pressure 6 dropped and more energy used with -- so to me, they 7 -- if you were to adjust that number, you also need 8 to adjust the other external static pressures as 9 well. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is something for 11 consideration. I guess, you know, from the 12 contractor's viewpoint in trying to find out, okay, 13 what numbers should we plug into our analysis to 14 turn the crank? We can certainly, you know, make a 15 decision, but they're the sensitivity stuff. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. STARR: The other point, too, is 18 while they may sell their conversion curves 19 anywhere from .15 to .7, they can design those so 20 that they have a reasonable amount of pressure 21 drop. Because I have a sense of -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: They'll get bigger.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 154 1 MR. STARR: Well, but, I mean, is there 2 -- so the system effect is basically how they come 3 out of the fan, they come in the direction the air 4 is rotating, or are they going backwards to that -- 5 some extent those can be -- those are somewhat of a 6 selection of what the -- a good design is or not. 7 So unfortunately, the engineer sometimes 8 do a bad design, but if they're going in the right 9 direction, can they do something lower and 10 something more reasonable like .2? 11 MR. LORD: (Inaudible). Sometimes you've 12 got units and we've got a lot of them where you 13 have a long, skinny duct and you've got to go to a 14 square duct and you've got to do strange things. 15 MR. STARR: But some of these -- 16 MR. LORD: (Inaudible) put cables in 17 there and tell them where to go. 18 MR. STARR: But some -- just the thing 19 that you described would happen with any of the 20 unit regardless of DL-3; right? It could be DL-1 21 and 2? 22 MR. LORD: Oh, no, you don't need a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 155 1 (inaudible). 2 MR. STARR: Well, like a square 3 attachment? 4 MR. LORD: No, it fits onto a curve. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Eileen Hoffman. So 6 what does the group want to do given the 7 discussion? 8 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. And I have 9 no -- I have no way to validate .2 versus .35, you 10 know. I just don't have any source other than, you 11 know -- 12 So what I would ask is that the 13 contractor take the information that Bob provided 14 and that Jill provided earlier today and to that -- 15 to maybe be -- have -- get the contacts so there's 16 wires and see if there's a way. I mean, I would -- 17 I would -- I would ask the department to further 18 investigate the number. 19 MR. TERZIGNI: The other thing -- this is 20 Mark Terzigni -- I would tend to lean towards the 21 higher number. But if it helps, I could reach out 22 to the network of actual KM contractors and try and

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 156 1 get you guys some real world measurements. 2 Unfortunately, it's sometimes tough to 3 equate to or (inaudible) with respect to direct 4 inches to water and as these changes occur. But we 5 have ways of, I'll say guesstimating -- I don't 6 want to say measuring -- that exact amount. 7 So I could reach out to that -- and get 8 that back to the group if you don't want to take a 9 vote on it today. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: Sounds good to me. 11 Is that a sense of the group, we will get 12 more information? Mark and the contractor and 13 Navigant and a number of other folks you mentioned 14 to get involved? And when would you be able to 15 come back with a figure? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess I'll be 17 chasing down the contacts of Bob and Jill -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Bob and Jill, any idea when 19

-- 20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh, you said the same 21 one. 22 MALE SPEAKER: Different, different.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 157 1 MR. TERZIGNI: I could try and have some 2 stuff by tomorrow. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: That's Mark; right? 4 (Simultaneous speaking.) So you'll have it done 5 tomorrow? 6 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah. 7 MALE SPEAKER: So we do get two different 8 suppliers -- 9 MR. TERZIGNI: I'll send an e-mail 10 tomorrow and see if I can get some kind of 11 collective information, if not by tomorrow, 12 certainly by -- 13 MS. HOFFMAN: By the next -- 14 MR. TERZIGNI: -- certainly by the next 15 meeting. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from 17 Carrier. I have to check with our supplier, but 18 I'll ask him if he's willing to talk to Navigant 19 and then if I can give you his contact information, 20 provided I get an affirmative answer. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: Good. So is it realistic 22 to try for tomorrow or at least by the next meeting

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 158 1 after tomorrow? 2 MALE SPEAKER: Well, we're not going to 3 be here tomorrow. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, probably -- tomorrow 5 -- I mean, by the time we get the response and then 6 Navigant has a chance to talk to him. I think next 7 meeting is more realistic. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So next meeting. 9 We'll put you on the agenda. 10 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say 11 is, while Mark Terzigni is looking at that curve 12 pressure drop, it also could in ideal get the 13 external pressure which he seemed to have a sense 14 of as well. Which the tab guys can ask about that 15 one, they can also ask about the typical external 16 static pressures for seven-and-a-half, 15, and 17 30-ton units of CC. What those are realistic 18 numbers, not -- 19 One of the things I have about it is 20 those, you know, in a lot of those systems, you 21 would have the supply network and you would also 22 have a return network and those numbers here seem

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 159 1 pretty low in terms of what I've seen as a design 2 engineer and the design engineers are currently 3 working, and that's pretty low numbers in general. 4 And really those relative magnitudes, the pressure 5 drop in the curves to the total static pressure is 6 a pretty important number. 7 So I'd like both of those to be 8 (inaudible). 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Mark, if that's 10 something that you can ask about as well, or -- 11 MR. TERZIGNI: Sure. 12 MALE SPEAKER: Do you want it broken 13 down? 14 MR. TERZIGNI: So 7.5, 15, 30-ton units, 15 and you want total static pressure. I can even ask 16 if they have data on supply returns or plan 17 returns. 18 I mean, I'll just try and break it down 19 as specifically as I can for you. 20 MR. STARR: Yeah, and it's really just 21 supply and return added together in the system 22 (coughing) unit.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 160 1 MS. HOFFMAN: So do we want Mark to give 2 it directly to the working group or to Navigant? 3 MALE SPEAKER: Navigant. 4 MS. HOFFMAN: Navigant? Okay. 5 And our deadline is the -- the next full 6 meeting, which is May 20, unless you get it sooner. 7 Okay? 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And we did a 9 quick search of the Air Movement and Control 10 Association website and didn't find the standard 11 relating to curves. It might be worth a call to 12 Mike Ivanovich there. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Probably -- (simultaneous 14 speaking.) 15 MR. TERZIGNI: In a valid conditions. We 16 represent our design manuals as well. And we 17 actually have a whole section on how fans are 18 measured and then how they are sold and how there's 19 a significant difference between the two. 20 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken. Thank you. 21 MR. deLASKI: So this is Andrew. I have 22 a related -- on the conversion curve question -- a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 161 1 related issue on conversion curves. 2 In our last meeting, I thought I heard 3 some of the manufacturers say that you may have a 4 conversion curve in the base case. 5 So if I have a Manufacturer X unit on the 6 roof today, but I'm Manufacturer Y and I get that 7 sale, I get that replacement, then there may be a 8 conversion curve involved. So the question I have 9 for you is: Are you capturing conversion curves in 10 the base case? 11 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that would be part 12 of the LDL analysis. 13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So I flag that for a 14 question for LDL. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Although, we would have to 16 provide the recalculated formulations that can be 17 used for the sale extensions. 18 MR. WHITWELL: But Andrew, I think it's 19 true there could be conversion curves in the base 20 case if you're replacing a unit with someone else's 21 unit. But you're going to have that same situation 22 in the -- let's say in the other EL levels as well.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 162 1 The difference -- so those would wash. 2 The difference is where if you, at the 3 higher EL levels where everything gets bigger, 4 including a manufacturer, if he's replacing his own 5 unit and the unit is larger in order to get the 6 higher efficiency level. In that case, everything's 7 going to have a conversion curve. Do you follow me? 8 MR. deLASKI: Right. But it's 20 percent 9 to have a converse curve in the base case. 10 MR. WHITWELL: 20 percent plus an extra 11

-- 12 MR. deLASKI: Right. 13 MR. WHITWELL: -- plus everything else. 14 It's -- so 100 percent could have the 15 converse curve in the higher EL levels. 16 MR. deLASKI: Right -- and this is Andrew 17 again -- but you'd want to capture the one base 18 case. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Oh, I got you. So 20 it's not 100 percent in the EL, it's some -- 21 MR. deLASKI: Right. 22 MR. WHITWELL: -- percentage that --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 163 1 MR. deLASKI: Does that make sense to you 2 guys? (Simultaneous speaking.) 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so a new 4 construction would not retrofit -- may or may not 5 depending on whether -- what's being retrofitted. 6 MR. STARR: So basically, it's basically 7 an 80/20 split; right? 80 percent market 8 replacement and 80 percent of the -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But if I'm 10 replacing one of my units in a replacement, I don't 11 need a curve because it's the same size. It's been 12 the same size for 30 years for the base. 13 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark here from SMACNA, and 14 one of the issues that we've come across talking to 15 contractors is generally more efficient units are 16 larger in size, and as you replace an older unit 17 with a newer unit, you have less space to have 18 those good inlet and outlet conditions. 19 So sometimes they really need -- I can 20 actually think of one case where they put another 21 unit in there and they couldn't get enough air 22 through the system because of the actual traffic

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 164 1 difference in the original equipment size in the 2 new, quote, "more efficient" equipment size. They 3 couldn't get the air flowing through it because of 4 the effect created. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so just following up 6 on your comment, Andrew, is -- yeah, I think we 7 have to come up with some number. I don't know 8 whether it's 20 percent or something that would not 9 -- that would have the conversion curve in either 10 case. 11 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 12 MALE SPEAKER: I guess -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know what that 14 number would be -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) that number -- 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. WHITWELL: 20 percent could be 18 because I don't know what other number to put out 19 there. 20 MR. deLASKI: It's not zero; it's not 21 100. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, replacements are 80

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 165 1 percent, but what percentage of replacements get 2 replaced by the same manufacturer? Probably a 3 fairly good percentage of those, so 20. 4 MR. deLASKI: So lacking other data, I'm 5 fine to replace or -- 6 MR. LORD: This is part in, I guess -- 7 Bob, I was a little surprised by your saying we 8 would be using the same curve sized base units for 9 30 years. 10 MR. WHITWELL: 30 years is probably an 11 exaggeration, but it goes back to -- 12 MALE SPEAKER: At least 25 -- 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, our base units 15 have not changed size very much (simultaneous 16 speaking). 17 MR. SACHS: Fairly large changes in 18 (inaudible) since 1999 since both the base -- 19 (inaudible.) 20 MR. WHITWELL: The TCs -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So make sure that the 22 openings --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 166 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- make sure the openings 3 are still the same. So they might cantilever, they 4 might grow higher, but it's really important to be 5 able to replace them ourselves. So we do a lot of 6 -- lot of things to make sure that that still stays 7 in that same. 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Thank you, 9 Jill. 10 MR. WHITWELL: And technology -- 11 compressor technology has improved, heater 12 exchanger technology has improved, motor and fan 13 technology. And so -- 14 MR. SACHS: So it's not a zero sum game? 15 MR. WHITWELL: It costs -- it all costs 16 money. 17 MR. deLASKI: I mean, it does raise the 18 question about again, are we voting in on 19 non-conservatism here? Because there's a lot of 20 incentive to not have that conversion curve. And 21 if we're building it in at EL-3, but it may be that 22 it may be avoided in some instances.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 167 1 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, the units that are 2 out there now that hit those levels are bigger. 3 MR. deLASKI: I get it. But I get that 4 there are strong market incentives to try to find 5 ways to not have a curve. But I can't tell you how 6 to do it, so -- 7 MR. SACHS: You can look at -- some of 8 those EL-3s doubled in size. 9 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 10 MR. SACHS: That's pretty big. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: We're at the end of the 12 25-year life. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR. deLASKI: Fully amortized. 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: So we talked about the 17 performance aspects, the cost aspects, and what 18 we'll be talking about later. And so we, you know, 19 input that special (inaudible). 20 Moving onto the next issue, the 21 additional efficiency levels. We decided to, you 22 know, rename some of these efficiency levels such

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 168 1 that we don't have to get numbers such as the .25. 2 So we now have a 2.5 in between what was 3 the EL-2 and the EL-3, and we have an EL-3.5 from 4 the seven-and-a-half and the 15-ton analyses which 5 are .721 above the -- above the (inaudible). 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But 30-ton is what? So 7 what is it? 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: There is no new 9 additional .5 in there. The EL-4 was most recently 10 named EL-3.1. In the NOPR, it was 4. So we're 11 going back to, you know, 4 for that just to -- so 12 that's EL-4 and then EL-5 is the maximum. 13 So here the only additional input is 14 whether everybody's satisfied with this list of 15 efficiency levels and different variants. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Any discussion? Should we 17 take a temperature check? Is this not 18 controversial? Is this agreeable? 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Some of these specific 20 levels are incapable and I think further on, and I 21 imagine -- 22 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 169 1 I'd like to do an industry caucus on this for a few 2 minutes. 3 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. No 4 objection, of course. But this is what we asked 5 you to do last night. 6 So you're doing what the group asked you 7 to do last night and there's nothing that -- not 8 giving you any judgment at all, but what we asked 9 you to do (inaudible). 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: So the only exact 11 (inaudible) or 3 or exactly pinpoint 2 and 3. 12 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: But, you know, the 14 numbers are in particular -- 15 MR. deLASKI: Right. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- further on, you know. 17 For instance, this is the 15 turns to EL-2.5 and 18 then (inaudible) for 7, for instance. 19 MR. deLASKI: We discussed the method for 20 this last time. And you said basically -- we 21 agreed -- it's discussed. Okay. Thank you. 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Does the group -- the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 170 1 industry group need to take a conference now? We 2 can take a break and -- just asking, how long would 3 you need, Karen? 4 MS. MEYERS: Like just a quick 10 5 minutes. 6 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Why don't we 7 take a 10 minute -- well, let's say 15 for 8 realistic purposes -- a 15-minute break. And the 9 industry can talk and hold caucus. And everyone 10 else can also discuss with them if they wish, and 11 we'll come back in 15 minutes. So we're now off 12 the record. 13 (Recess.) 14 MS. HOFFMAN: Karen, when we last left, 15 you had a caucus. Do you have something to report 16 back? 17 MS. MEYERS: We didn't talk about who was 18 going to report back. Go ahead, please. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: Just say who you are then 20 for the transcript. 21 MR. MISLAK: Sure. Nick Mislak, HRI. 22 We're fine with the levels as proposed.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 171 1 MS. HOFFMAN: I think maybe we -- see if 2 we have consensus. Can we see if you're in 3 agreement with the levels as proposed? 4 MR. WHITWELL: For the additional 5 analysis? 6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, so thumbs, please. 7 (Off-the-record conversation) 8 MR. BANTLE: Were there any thumbs down? 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Any thumbs down? 10 (No response.) 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Moving on. So this 13 slide gives a summary of the some of the things 14 that we've been working on since the last meeting. 15 We have had added analyses for the additional 16 efficiency levels and models and Line 2 compressors 17 and the half ton based upon models, the two and a 18 half and the three and a half is small and large 19 classes. 20 We have made some slight adjustments with 21 some of the 15-ton results. We have developed 22 energy-use results for the seven-and-a-half ton

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 172 1 models and the work on the 30-ton models is 2 (speaking under breath). 3 One point on the 30 ton, the baseline EL 4 has been raised to 10.6. That was at a 10.1, but 5 there really aren't models at 10.1, at least not 6 where we can understand what the design details 7 are. 8 We have evaluated the differences between 9 the VAV and the staged air volume for 15-ton EL-3. 10 We used this as an example, and this was an 11 analysis we did just to take a look at the question 12 for downstream analysis. When I get into this part 13 of discussion, there will be more on this but this 14 was about (speaking under breath). 15 We have identified two specific 16 manufacturers which of their models were the basis 17 for the 15-ton analysis and seven-and-a-half and 18 30. Probably as of today, because the results are 19 here and I'll be informing various people of that 20 and -- the 30 tons and will make sure everybody 21 knows about that as well. 22 This does get into a question about how

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 173 1 -- any information on feedback we get from the 2 manufacturers and informed which models of theirs, 3 how we would work that back with the analyses. 4 I think that might depend on individual 5 discussions with them, because I can see this 6 getting into a situation where we say, okay, well, 7 if this number (inaudible), this profile is 8 (inaudible), well, tell me the (inaudible) get me 9 back to the same IEER and then it's like, show me 10 anybody else (inaudible). 11 I want to be sensitive to that, but on 12 the other hand I want to make sure what we're 13 presenting is representative. 14 So I don't know if anybody has any 15 comments on that. Certainly I might deal with that 16 on a one-by-one basis with the manufacturers 17 themselves if everybody is okay with that. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: The goal (inaudible) is 19 that whatever of the models you picked from us, 20 that they're mostly representative of where we're 21 going here with what we're including in the 22 analysis; right?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 174 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: The intent is that they 2 be representative of the way most everybody's units 3 look at those efficiency levels. 4 MR. WHITWELL: So you thought, well, if 5 you're evaluating catalog data and deciding that, 6 right, you're making some selections based on what 7 you think is most representative or are you asking 8 us to give input on what's most representative? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, typically when we 10 look at 15 tons and again at an efficiency level, 11 we talked about this at the previous meeting, that 12 at an EL-1 level, I can find a few models at that 13 target IEER. 14 But when we get to the higher levels and 15 the higher tonnages, it's much more difficult. I 16 may only have one that's at that target IEER level, 17 so it's not like I can compare different 18 manufacturers on this. 19 So we get to a problem here we want to be 20 representative, but we want to base it on real 21 units where people are comfortable this is what 22 they're actually performing. We don't want to put

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 175 1 everybody's business front and center, so it's kind 2 of a difficult situation, which I'm to conclude 3 (inaudible). 4 Certainly if you have recommendations on 5 the way to deal with these issues, mention it 6 publicly or mention it privately, I'll treat those 7 communications as confidential, even if we don't 8 have nondisclosure agreements on them. I want to 9 be sensitive to the concerns, but I also want to 10 make sure we get an analysis that works. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I think they should 12 be treated privately with the manufacturers. 13 MALE SPEAKER: You haven't talked about 14 this much yet, but once you get 30 tons and above, 15 a lot of units out there today are VAV units and 16 they're not modeled after a true VAV unit. 17 Have you thought any about that or -- I 18 know we use statistics on it, but -- I mean, 19 there's EL-0 today as VAV units (inaudible). 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we have some 21 slides to talk about -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: You got some (inaudible).

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 176 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- VAV and 30 tons. 2 Moving on we have -- we did some review 3 of unit-size trends, looking at the curve size and 4 we have some results of that review in some of the 5 slides we're going to show. Moving on to cost, 6 we've refined the cost curves as seven-and-a-half 7 and 50 tons (coughing). 8 We developed cost per -- well, that's 9 perhaps a strong statement. We developed some cost 10 data for the 30-ton models and we're prepared to 11 show that and have -- try to get some feedback on 12 how to move forward with developing curves for 13 those. We've also developed shipping cost and 14 energy and (speaking under breath). 15 So the next nine slides are essentially 16 repeating some of the material that we saw last 17 time, the 15 tons (inaudible). 18 I don't know how much detail you want to 19 get into here, but for each of classes, we have the 20 different efficiency levels, descriptions of the 21 units that were the basis of the analysis. 22 First of all (inaudible), airflows,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 177 1 information on compressors, whether or not they're 2 a single circuit, and higher efficiency levels of 3 single circuit. For instance, (inaudible) shows 4 two compressors operating three stages of a single 5 (inaudible) circuit. 6 The second of each set of three here has 7 information on the outdoor side, the heat 8 exchanger, and the fan. The third of these sets of 9 three has information on the indoor heat exchangers 10 (inaudible). 11 There's a lot of data here. I wouldn't 12 expect that we would necessarily be getting into it 13 right here and now. Certainly, you could take a 14 look at it tonight (inaudible), if you'd like to do 15 that. If you have thoughts on it right off the bat, 16 we can talk about that now, too, so 17 seven-and-a-half ton. 18 Then we have the selections that we think 19 will be the basis of the 30-ton analyses. Hopefully 20 when we go through the analyses, these selections 21 will make sense and we can come together and we 22 will have descriptions (inaudible) of these units

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 178 1 and the different conditions that are needed for a 2 downstream analysis, but it's possible we'll have 3 to make a change here. 4 MR. ZENDAH: I have a question -- Sami 5 Zendah of Emerson -- where did you get the 6 selections as far as combinations of products, 7 (inaudible), what's your source? 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: These are all units that 9 are on the same (inaudible). We get sufficient 10 information from product literature to develop 11 (inaudible) in the downstream analysis. 12 MR. ZENDAH: So those are existing 13 products in the market? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. So before 15 I move on to the next topic, I don't know if 16 anybody wants to discuss any of the details here 17 now or -- actually we can do that tomorrow if we 18 needed. 19 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. 20 The ones where you say the adjusted using 21 (inaudible), can you be specific about how you 22 adjusted it? Is it just space area and density?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 179 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Typically space area and 2 density and -- and I think what we did was we tried 3 to adjust both of those in order to maintain the 4 same pressure drops so that the fan power would be 5 less likely to be affected by that change. 6 MR. THARP: My understanding is that the 7 original analysis that normally smooth tube was 8 used in the simulation program; is that still the 9 case? 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are Rifle 2. 11 MR. THARP: Everything is Rifle 2. Do 12 you have details about what the internal fan 13 heighth is, what the helix angle is, what the 14 enhancement profile is of the internal enhancement? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't. 16 Long, I don't know if you want to talk to 17 that or -- 18 MR. HUANG: We can set it up. Those are 19 based on the representative (inaudible) where those 20 information that are available being correlation 21 (inaudible), so we think representative... 22 MALE SPEAKER: Can you be more specific

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 180 1 about the correlation literature? 2 MALE SPEAKER: We can send out the 3 references for that specific correlation. (Speaking 4 under breath). 5 FEMALE SPEAKER: You need to get closer 6 to the microphone. Your mouth closer to the 7 microphone. 8 (Off-the-record discussion) 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, Rusty, just to be 10 clear, you're interested in correlations for 11 internal refrigerant (inaudible) can be transferred 12 with (inaudible) configurations? 13 MR. THARP: Yes, that's correct. 14 MALE SPEAKER: So, Detlef -- sorry, go 15 ahead. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess one other piece 17 of information would be good to know (inaudible) is 18 the number of circuits in each specific coil for 19 both the outdoor and the indoor. I know on the 20 indoor side, you used (inaudible), correct -- I'm 21 sorry, Rosecliff design? 22 MALE SPEAKER: Front, back -- well,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 181 1 front, back. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Can you describe the 3 circuitry used in the outdoor-heat exchanger? 4 MR. HUANG: With an outdoor (inaudible)? 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me, did you want to 6 answer that? Yeah, thank you. 7 MR. HUANG: This is Long Huang from 8 Navigant. So (inaudible) circuitry based on 9 (inaudible) units and number varied case by case, 10 but we tried to approximate it depending on the 11 number of circuitries. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: But were the two 13 compressor circuits arranged top, bottom on the 14 condenser -- 15 MR. HUANG: Internal stuff, compressor 16 circuits. In fact, I'm ordering units as top, 17 bottom. 18 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). I notice 19 your CFMs could use -- baseline up to (inaudible) 20 and they ranged from 290 CFM per ton to almost 400. 21 Any reason why you're doing that? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, these are -- for

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 182 1 those particular units with those ratings, these 2 are the rated airflows -- 3 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- (inaudible). 5 MALE SPEAKER: People can rate whatever 6 they want. I was just curious. That's probably 7 what I thought you were doing, other than your -- 8 your EL-5 looks kind of strange. That's a 36-ton 9 unit, that's 135, that seems like a lot of 10 capacity. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: For the 30-ton analysis, 12 there were precious few selections of the EL-5, and 13 so we sort of extended the envelope. 14 MALE SPEAKER: Not that it hurts, because 15 he's going to -- Greg runs it, he's going to ratio 16 it. He'll have fewer units, I assume. 17 MR. HUANG: Right. Unless I'm going from 18 -- I mean, this is the Nominal 40. Unless -- the 19 Nominal 40 is really not representative of the way 20 a 30 works. I would think that relative... 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: So in all the case of 22 these units, I'm assuming this is a -- is that a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 183 1 fan motor with a VFD on it and turned down 30 2 percent of the airflow, is that kind of the basis 3 of the airflow characteristics for the fan? 4 MALE SPEAKER: So 30 ton now, we have -- 5 some of these are -- 6 (Off-the-record discussion) 7 MR. STARR: I was just talking to Nick 8 here about -- so some of these are 2-speed fans, 9 and so a 30-ton unit you're assuming kind of a 10 constant-volume system and it has two speeds; is 11 that right? 12 MALE SPEAKER: You can. What some people 13 do -- you can't buy two-speed motors anymore. So 14 they put a VFD on it. On a VFD, there's a switch 15 (inaudible). So if I want to go Speed 1 or Speed 16 2, you need to program it. To program it I think 17 about 66 percent speed... 18 MR. STARR: So in this case there's a 19 fair amount -- once you start getting 30 tons of 20 (inaudible), you're actually having a xxx VNV 21 system for ductwork that are connected to VAV 22 boxes. Is this split out in this mix or this just

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 184 1 deceiving all kind of retail space? 2 Your typical office building, right, it's 3 going to have a bunch of VNV boxes and that's not 4 going to be a two-speed fan is going to work there? 5 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that was my question 6 earlier. I mean, even today those units are VAV 7 with boxes and things like that and they have 8 variable speed fans today. 9 So you're going to have some 30-ton units 10 that probably are constant volume and could go two 11 speeds. Some are 4 VAV with four channels. 12 MR. STARR: So this primarily looking at 13 the segment of the margin, appears you could 14 potentially -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: Less likely. I think you 16 had it there. Some of those units like the 30 ton, 17 like EL-2.5, that's a four-stage unit, that's a 18 full VAV unit you're looking at there. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Could be. Right. Could 20 be. We offer both. We have units that are 21 traditional VAV, but we also have the stage 22 (inaudible) volume in that size.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 185 1 MALE SPEAKER: Keep in mind, when you do 2 full VAV in those stages, right (inaudible). 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: We'll get more into it. 4 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell. 5 For example, if we go to Slide 24, I just 6 want to understand terminology. 7 So, for example, EL-2, CAV, it shows 8 214-square-inch face area, 17 (inaudible) per inch, 9 two times two; so does that mean there's two 10 circuits, each one is 21.4 for a total of 42.8 11 square feet, face area? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think so. 13 Long, am I right? 14 MR. HUANG: Yes, this is Long from 15 Navigant. 16 So the two by two, the first tube means 17 every (inaudible) gets two rows. The second tube, 18 there are two elements... 19 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 20 MALE SPEAKER: Where's the indoor fan 21 slide? 22 MR. STARR: So on that one, you don't

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 186 1 split out the motor like you did, the outdoor fan. 2 Is it all PCS motors? 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, these are indoor. 4 These would all be three units. 5 (Off-the-record discussion) 6 MR. WHITWELL: So these would be 7 induction motors with VFDs. Where you see SAV or 8 VAV, they're going to be induction motors with 9 VFDs. These would not be -- there would not be any 10 ECM motors on these units. It's too big. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, that's right. It's 12 over about three hoursepower -- 13 (Simultaneous speaking) 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, essentially above 15 one hoursepower, they're not going to happen. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, there are some 17 ECMs for the outdoor fans. 18 MALE SPEAKER: Any other questions? 19 MR. ZENDAH: I got one more, please. 20 Sami Zendah of Emerson. 21 So, for example, the EL-4 says the two 22 stages -- I see two different compressors. One

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 187 1 (inaudible) should three be stages, is there like 2 even (inaudible) put together in one circuit -- 3 MALE SPEAKER: It's our understanding 4 this is staged as a two stage. 5 MR. ZENDAH: Should be three; right? 6 MALE SPEAKER: Could be three. 7 MR. ZENDAH: I'm sorry, do you 8 understand, I have a chance to simulate some of 9 this stuff, that's why I'm asking. 10 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, no. As I say, we 11 haven't worked through all of these analyses. It's 12 our understanding that unit is two stages. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's two stages in tandem, 14 the one I'm thinking of, the pair. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: No other questions on 16 the descriptions. 17 So in the previous meetings, we went into 18 some detail looking at some of the -- on wattage 19 breakdowns, by the calculations and the 20 (inaudible). 21 I haven't looked at -- into the 22 presentation. I've got handouts for that in case

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 188 1 anybody wants to look at it. I can email or give 2 it to the group these handouts so that everybody 3 has them. 4 So there's one for the seven and a half 5 and one for the 15, and it shows each of the ELs 6 and combinations that we looked at, the component 7 wattage -- component wattage profile that gets to 8 the IEER that we calculated showing that it meets 9 the target with some tolerance. 10 Then the last page shows the performance 11 correlations within the display (inaudible) that in 12 their models to represent the performance. 13 Again this is a lot of information 14 potentially to digest, so if something 15 (inaudible)... 16 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall with PG&E. 17 Maybe you could just walk us through 18 once, so we make sure we understand the 19 nomenclature and the procedure. I think I do, but 20 I just want to make sure I do. 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: I can go to -- is there 22 another summary here -- it's a similar type of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 189 1 wattage profile. It shows the calculation and so 2 these are basically the -- representing the test 3 points that are to be conducted and (inaudible) at 4 the 95 and 100-percent capacity, and then you have 5 the lower temperatures and the partial. 6 In showing the capacity at each of those 7 loading points and a power of (inaudible) 8 components showing IEER, then according to the IEER 9 calculation, either the interpolation or the 10 adjustment for (inaudible) performance to get the 11 IEER that will be used in the weighted-average 12 equation at the 75 percent, 50 percent, and 25 13 percent loading points and then shows the overall 14 calculated IEER (inaudible)... 15 So we have this for each of the modeled 16 efficiency levels, multiple (speaking under 17 breath). 18 So rather than get into the nitty-gritty 19 of those (inaudible) now, we'll reserve some time 20 tomorrow if anybody has any questions on that... 21 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, you've already 22 shared this with the manufacturer through the

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 190 1 equipment you selected to start to get feedback on 2 this, yes? 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not for the 4 seven-and-a-half tons. For the 15 tons, it's all 5 (inaudible) with some slight modifications for some 6 of them with what we already show. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Seven-and-a-half ton is 8 coming? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Seven-and-a-half ton I 10 will... 11 MR. WHITWELL: So in the next couple 12 days? 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. When we get to 14 the 30 tons, (inaudible). 15 So the next line here the correlations 16 from (inaudible), we developed these first four -- 17 the test which gives the IEER rating. We then made 18 adjustments consistent with the different external 19 static pressures. 20 In evaluating the downstream analysis, I 21 (inaudible) and then with the additional .2 22 external static version curve of the higher

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 191 1 efficiency levels. 2 Basically this just increases fan power 3 and corresponding (inaudible) as a (speaking under 4 breath) and provided all of those different 5 correlations (inaudible) analysis. 6 Any questions on that? 7 Next thing I mentioned the -- I conducted 8 some review of different size trends looking at the 9 potential needs of conversion curves and we have 10 three plots for seven-and-a-half ton, 15, and 30 11 showing, not for every manufacturer but for some 12 key manufactuers, the curve area is where the -- as 13 the function of -- well, IEER is a function of the 14 curve area. 15 We also show in these plots which of 16 these units use (inaudible) and -- so at this 17 point, we haven't really affirmatively concluded 18 whether this definitively says EL-3 was the right 19 choice to apply to a conversion curve. That might 20 be up for debate. 21 There might be questions about whether 22 these are the right capacities we wish to represent

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 192 1 curve sizes for the small, large, and very large 2 classes. 3 If you look at these, one would conclude 4 that maybe there's not quite as much growth in 5 curve size as one might think, which is consistent 6 with what Bob said earlier that curve sizes have 7 all been pretty much the same. 8 Seven and a half here, you can see 9 Manufacture A going up to roughly EL-4 is a 10 significant curve size change. For Manufacturer C, 11 there's significant curve size change going to 12 12 IEER, which is between the baseline. 13 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. 14 So in reading this chart, you should go 15 with the color and then you can see the area 16 getting bigger on the right, you're also seeing an 17 increase in size in the IEER; is that the 18 correlation you're looking for? 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes, the 20 expectation was that you'd see some pretty 21 consistent jumps in each of these. 22 MR. STARR: In other words, a straight

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 193 1 line or an approximation of a straight line within 2 the given color, you would expect to see -- as you 3 would a higher efficiency, you can see the greater 4 curve area. What's changing that is the 5 microchannel in this case potentially or not? I 6 mean, you can't necessarily make that -- 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would expect to see 8 steps where you have particular box sizes -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but you haven't 10 really done that here, because you picked a 11 seven-and-a-half ton and that shares a box usually 12 -- that shares a box usually with a 10 ton, then 13 there's the break for the 12-and-a-half tone, or 14 something like that. You really haven't really 15 gone across the product line where you naturally 16 see these breaks and... 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes. Why don't we 18 say that okay, we should do this investigation at 19 different capacity limits to see whether -- do we 20 see something similar in 10 or 12 and a half. 21 So then at 15 ton -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I can just say for like

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 194 1 myself, a seven and a half and 10 ton are in the 2 same cabinet. The seven-and-a-half ton's kind of 3 -- it's at that 10 ton that break to 10 to 12 and a 4 half or the larger I have more efficiency of that 5 10 ton is where you're going to have the break to 6 another -- to another cabinet, to another curve 7 issue. 8 This isn't always going to be the same 9 for everybody, but that's just where that kind of 10 lies, same thing with the 15. The 15 is kind of 11 small in the cabinet, it goes up to a 17 and a 12 half. You start to reach max cabinet size, you're 13 going to change cabinet size and curve size 14 matching up at that point. 15 You're kind of looking at, in my 16 perspective, the best of the options, not the worst 17 of the options. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: In other words what 19 you're saying is that depending on where you have 20 the box jump today, that will say from that 21 particular manufacturer what this (inaudible). 22 So if your box is big for the capacity,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 195 1 it's not going to change (inaudible). If your box 2 is small in capacity, it will jump at (inaudible). 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So like a 10 ton -- 10 ton 4 for us today, the sort of low efficiency and medium 5 efficiency are one cabinet, jumps to another whole 6 cabinet for a (inaudible) efficiency. 7 So it can't go -- a 10 ton can't be 8 replaced high efficiency on the old curve. I mean, 9 we already have that. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. I understand. I'm 11 just -- this is just some initial investigation we 12 did in order to try to get a better handle on what 13 these levels may start to require for a conversion 14 curve, and so (speaking under breath). 15 I'm just going to make the observation. 16 It sounds like in some of the EL3s, you're not 17 going to have a jump just based upon cabinet sizes. 18 Take the seven-and-a-half ton unit, right, it 19 sounds like you're not going to have a conversion 20 curve switching up to higher efficiency in that one 21 but maybe other ones you would. 22 So it seems like you almost have to do a

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 196 1 little bit of analysis of figuring out which she's 2 suggesting where the breaks are and the cabinet 3 sizes. 4 We have sizes changing up at that time, 5 then that's what you need a conversion curve at. It 6 doesn't seem like you just need them every time 7 you're at EL-3. 8 Am I making the right conclusion there or 9 am I missing something? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, what I was saying is 11 that my -- the low and medium efficiencies are 12 going to go away of we go to EL-3, so all of them 13 would have a conversion curve because that already 14 is a bigger unit for me, bigger cabinet, so nobody 15 could match up. I couldn't even match myself. I 16 will be in a conversion curve no matter what at 17 that 10 ton, and that's just using one as an 18 example that I know of today. 19 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. In the 10 20 ton, right, so what you were -- before -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just what I know off 22 the top of my head right now, Andrew --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 197 1 MR. deLASKI: As an example, this is a 2 seven-and-a-half ton, you don't see it. But if you 3 go to a 10 ton, you would see it. So it suggests 4 that you need to do a more thorough analysis? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: You need a more thorough -- 6 exactly. 7 MALE SPEAKER: The trouble, you'd have to 8 design everybody's product line and evaluate it. 9 You're going to have to come up with some 10 definitive rule that you're going to have to guess 11 at. 12 MR. deLASKI: Right. A weighting of some 13 sort or an average -- 14 MALE SPEAKER: Some weighting. 15 MR. deLASKI: -- but it's not zero, it's 16 not a hundred. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Some units may jump at 18 EL-2 or might jump at EL-3. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure. You're right. You're 20 right. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Depends on if it's the 22 smallest unit in the box or the biggest in the box.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 198 1 MALE SPEAKER: Do you all have any great 2 suggestions on how Navigant might do that? 3 MALE SPEAKER: We've been doing it 4 already. 5 (Simultaneous talking) 6 MALE SPEAKER: We're investigating the 7 sizes based on curve area and obviously dimensions, 8 too, but (speaking under breath). 9 Certainly we can look at the dimensions, 10 but then how to implement it in the out-stream 11 analysis in order to figure out what the impact is 12 and how much energy savings you really get, that's 13 where it gets complicated. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think we have to 15 look at it by comparison size and then say, okay, 16 for this capacity size it looks like it's at this 17 EL level and for this other one, it's at a 18 different EL level, you know, just looking at this 19 kind of a plot. 20 Otherwise, I don't know how we can -- I 21 mean, we could pick something out of the air, but 22 if we want to do something more scientific, I think

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 199 1 we'd have to look at this, kind of a (inaudible) 2 like you suggested or some key sizes; right. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: My initial impression 4 looking at some of these plots was that it's not a 5 cut-and-dry story that it's always an EL-3. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Because if you 7 look at this, I mean, the green one doesn't jump at 8 all, but it's a very large footprint to start with; 9 right. 10 MR. deLASKI: Interesting. 11 MR. WHITWELL: But the blue one, for 12 example, it's a significant jump when you go from 13 14 to 19. So it all depends on the starting point, 14 like you said where it is within a certain chasse, 15 where that capacity unit falls within a 16 manufacturer's chasse. 17 MALE SPEAKER: I think we're already 18 headed towards like performance correlations with 19 the conversion curve, even at the lower efficiency 20 levels. (Speaking under breath). 21 We could alternatively (inaudible). 22 (Off-the-record discussion)

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 200 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think the other thing 2 about these charts (inaudible), there's no strong 3 story about saving size (speaking under breath). 4 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, could you speak a 5 little louder, I couldn't hear your observation. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: For this one here, the 7 15 tons, there are -- Manufacturer A as to market 8 channeling units and 77 square foot (inaudible) 9 area, but there are two round-tube units on a 10 smaller curve are. Well, moving on -- 11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 12 I certainly think that you can -- curve 13 area is appropriate, but I would expect the package 14 size to scale the surface area. 15 What I don't have a sense of in 16 particular terms of box content, wanting to get 17 multiple chasses and efficiencies for the same size 18 package. 19 If I go up one percent in package size, 20 package cost go up half a percent or two percent -- 21 no, no, I mean, to what extent does it pay you just 22 to use a larger box for more size is really what it

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 201 1 comes down to. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey, a big driver on 3 this is to (inaudible). You give general purpose 4 to a product and it's a lot more expensive. 5 MR. THARP: But if you hard tool a 6 product, you have to volume to hard too it and you 7 want to have common box sizes. 8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, manufacturing 9 complexity and capital expense. 10 MALE SPEAKER: It could be a 11 generalization for a large production volume type. 12 MALE SPEAKER: You get up to like about 13 30 tons. Those are more general purpose, you know, 14 the seven-and-half, 10 ton. 15 MALE SPEAKER: No, I can't give you a 16 percentage increase in the cost for size. 17 MALE SPEAKER: It's kind of what I think 18 Jim was indicating, (inaudible). 19 MR. WHITWELL: In some cases dollars per 20 ton can go up as you go up in capacity, because on 21 the lower end you got more volume, you got 22 economies to scale.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 202 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: So moving on to 2 comparison of SAV and VAV, and the reason we looked 3 at this was that -- and we kind of took the 4 approach for the seven and a half and 15 ton, 5 modeling them through most of the efficiency range, 6 either as constant air volume or staged air volume. 7 But we are aware that some of these units 8 might be inclined in the field as VAV, which is a 9 third option. So the question is do we have the 10 complexity of providing VAV models having LV&L 11 (inaudible) for that portion of the floorspace that 12 is VAV in this capacity range. 13 Well, let's look at -- what's the 14 difference in the IEER between an SAV and a VAV and 15 we did this for the EL3, which had three stages so 16 that it's worth talking about, because it has three 17 stages and you go down roughly 40 percent 18 (inaudible). 19 So when we did this, we found that there 20 was very little difference in the IEER for 21 (inaudible) and then next page compares them. 22 MR. STARR: This is Louis from NEEA.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 203 1 I would agree with that. The problem is 2 the test procedure doesn't really capture the real 3 world energy with use of a fan where you would see 4 a lot in a VAV system that turned down to 30 5 percent rather than 40 percent. 6 That's why (inaudible) look at IEER 7 wouldn't necessarily be a good way to ago about 8 looking at that. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is a unit with 10 three compressor stages, so it's not really going 11 to go down 30 percent because it's (inaudible) 4.44 12 percent on the compressor side. 13 MR. STARR: Well, ventilation. 14 MALE SPEAKER: You got to keep in mind, 15 VAV is a different animal. That would have very 16 little airflow, so you'd have to have a lot of 17 stages or you're going to end up with supplier 18 (inaudible), so you design differently when you're 19 building VAV and you can (speaking under breath). 20 MR. STARR: So typically you would size 21 all your boxes, you drop it down to 30 percent of 22 your total airflow, so the unit's probably running

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 204 1 from somewhere in 30 percent 100 percent airflow. 2 When it's no load, or very low load, it's going to 3 run close to 30 percent -- 4 MALE SPEAKER: Actually I was asking for 5 much lower than 30 percent, because you guys 6 (inaudible). 7 MR. STARR: Oh, that's right. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Let me ask the question 9 here: What you're saying is that you've got 10 compressor modulation from all of these units that 11 are -- that have VAV? 12 MALE SPEAKER: If you look at what's in 13 90.11, they have four stages, five stages, six 14 stages. Some will have the last stage modulating, 15 not always. Some of them will have (inaudible) for 16 some of them. But if you look at 90.1 that's why 17 on VAV, we ask for more stages than we do on 18 (inaudible) because of the stability issues. 19 Once you get to about six stages, more 20 stages... 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Let's go back to these 22 30-ton units here. If you look at four there

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 205 1 (speaking under breath). 2 MALE SPEAKER: That's a (inaudible) unit. 3 If you look at EL2.5, that's a VAV. It's got four 4 stages. Look at EL2, that's got five stages. Those 5 are the units you would use on VAV. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So when we're dealing 7 with a VAV -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) static 9 pressure, supplier temperature -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Supplier temperature. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Should we come up with a 12 guess for how many stages there are if the product 13 literature doesn't? 14 MALE SPEAKER: Well, right now you're not 15 even modeling a VAV. Everything you've done is 16 staged (inaudible). 17 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they're modeling it 18 the IEER test points. 19 MALE SPEAKER: When you do VAV, you got 20 reheat, you've got all sorts of things in the 21 building, that's why I would probably -- you're 22 taking some of these buildings over, obviously VAV,

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 206 1 and making it into constant liability, which is not 2 right. 3 I mean, the VAV system is a totally 4 different design from the unit, to the terminals, 5 to the heating methods. You've got to have the 6 right building. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: (Inaudible). I think 8 this is like a point that gets bigger than 9 engineering, (inaudible) the building model as 10 well. Now on June 15th, we're going to perhaps 11 have (speaking under breath). Think about how will 12 you do this and our approach was to model at a 13 stage based on IEER status. 14 MALE SPEAKER: I think I might have 15 something to help here. So the percentage of 16 market we're talking about here is probably 10 17 percent or less, is that -- 30 ton? 18 MALE SPEAKER: Once you get above 30 tons 19 it's like (inaudible). It starts off at constant 20 volume. By the time you're at 60 tons, it's almost 21 all VAV. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably even the break --

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 207 1 probably even the break changeover really happens 2 at around 40 tons, so these are, remember your 3 categories, 20 through essentially 63 tons and your 4 change order happens around 40 tons to majority be 5 VAV units. 6 So picking 30 as representative of that, 7 it's a little hard. If you looked at just pure 8 30-ton sales, yes, it's probably a little bit more 9 constant volume than -- we're probably at a 40, I'm 10 just going off the top of my head. 11 MALE SPEAKER: This market segment, 12 though, it's of the total sales. It's not that 13 large, right, it's like less than 10 percent. So 14 I'm not saying the analysis is not important, maybe 15 not as important as the rest of the stuff. 16 MALE SPEAKER: It's 10 percent of the 17 market, but it's three times the capacity of a 18 10-ton unit. The energy's larger. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 20 MALE SPEAKER: We may be complicating our 21 lives too much. We're trying to split -- because 22 (inaudible) to really model VAV at 30 tons is not

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 208 1 the best choice, should have been (inaudible) and a 2 40 ton. It's just how much analysis do we really 3 want to do on this thing? 4 MR. STARR: Well, the other point I was 5 thinking is so (inaudible) is the 20 tons, right, 6 there's going to be a lot of staged air volume 7 point. So again actually the VAV systems in that 8 size I've always seen are kind of what he's 9 describing, but then I realize what the sales 10 actually are for things like Walmart and some of 11 the other large retail stores that have these large 12 units that are basically just two stage, kind of 13 like what you -- kind of what's described up there. 14 So to me I think you are capturing most 15 of the market. It sounds like you're missing a 16 certain percentage of it. Maybe we should talk 17 about (coughing), that might be more to the point. 18 MALE SPEAKER: The only part we argue is 19 that the base case may be a 30-ton (inaudible) 20 certain percentage of (inaudible) VAV. So you're 21 not going to get fancy -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, VAV or staged

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 209 1 (inaudible), but that's the case across. 2 MALE SPEAKER: We're going to have so 3 many variations times the sensitivity, I'm not sure 4 you're going to get this all done. It may be one 5 of those ones we have to just not push. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Basically you're modeling 7 the VAV and the staged air volume really the same; 8 right? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, not exactly. We 10 would be modeling the VAV system test procedure. So 11 given the stages that we have, we model it down the 12 same -- 13 MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- temperature as in... 15 MR. STARR: The other thing is is that 16 AHRI is getting the data, we'll have a sense of how 17 much our -- the distinctions between the two-stage 18 VAV or the continuous VAV systems. 19 MALE SPEAKER: No. We'll have the staged 20 air volume and VAV as -- together versus a 21 constant... 22 MALE SPEAKER: One problem you got is

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 210 1 there are only three buckets, 65 to 135, 135 to 2 240, 240 and up. Like you said, there's a lot of 3 20, 25-ton constant volumes in that 30 and up -- or 4 20-and-up category. You may not get the true 5 picture. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's heavily weighted. 7 MALE SPEAKER: It's heavily weighted. 8 There's a lot of volume at 20, 25 tons, because of 9 Walmart. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And Home Depot and Lowe's. 11 MR. STARR: So that's what I was saying 12 that maybe 80, 90 percent of the sales are really 13 20-ton units, but I don't know. Maybe it's worth 14 the manufacturer's to get a snapshot. I don't know 15 if they could do that easily or not. But if we're 16 only talking about 10 percent of small category, it 17 doesn't seem like it's worth doing an analysis on 18 it. 19 MALE SPEAKER: I'm afraid we bogged 20 ourselves down with an analysis. 21 MR. WHITWELL: We'll see the data pretty 22 soon, right, at least what that total category

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 211 1 looks like and if we need to get into more 2 requirement, we could -- 3 MALE SPEAKER: It's kind of a parking 4 lot... 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So then that's the 6 question of whether the four-stage modeling is 7 appropriate for VAV... 8 MALE SPEAKER: The IEER was kind of 9 (inaudible), four blowing points, and I was trying 10 to keep it somewhat simple, not have six or ten 11 different testimonies. You're not going to see 12 much difference between a four stage and a three 13 stage, which is what you're seeing. If you want to 14 model a true VAV in a building, that's a different 15 story because the air is like -- the airflow turns 16 down more, the capacity turns down more, but it has 17 re-heat and other things in there that have to show 18 (inaudible). 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: We will have the air 20 turned down more (inaudible). 21 MALE SPEAKER: You're not modeling -- the 22 trouble is building some of our VAV, you really

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 212 1 can't tell, we don't have enough detail. 2 MR. WHITWELL: But if we're modeling the 3 VAV the same way across the EL levels, does it 4 really make a difference? 5 MS. HOFFMAN: May I? I'm just 6 facilitator (inaudible). Are we kind of going in 7 circles a little bit here? 8 MALE SPEAKER: I guess the only 9 difference I would make is you're assuming that 10 base case was purely a (inaudible). A lot of those 11 units might have already been VAV. 12 MR. WHITWELL: That's what I'm saying, if 13 we do it the same way across all EL levels, we've 14 got to recognize that some EL -- zero units, EL1, 15 they're VAV already. But if we model it the same 16 way, then I think we're still okay; right? 17 MALE SPEAKER: Well, yeah, you notice 18 here that for 30 tons we have the VAV option at 19 EL1, consistent with (inaudible). 20 MR. WHITWELL: It really should be there 21 at the baseline as well in the 30 ton. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I would challenge

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 213 1 somebody to show me a VAV unit that's as low as 2 10.6 and... 3 MALE SPEAKER: It's tough to get there. 4 It's because you read them as constant volume. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: I'm thinking baseline is 6 current. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: Is it time to move on then, 8 in terms of the discussion? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think I'm getting 10 agreement that the floor level modeling of VAV is 11 acceptable? 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 13 MS. HOFFMAN: Do we need to vote on that? 14 No. Good. Moving right along. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: The other comments made 16 about some of these units here, if I see an IEER 17 level for a two-stage unit that should be VAV, 18 two-stage compressor, what is that IEER based on 19 and how do I know that I'm getting the right number 20 for my correlation (inaudible) to try to model this 21 VAV. For instance, this EL4 unit (coughing) and the 22 assumption is that it will (coughing) a VAV unit.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 214 1 It's got a 14.9 IEER. Is that as tested in two 2 stages according to the test procedure with the VAV 3 assumptions? 4 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, is that 5 something -- I mean, you're going to be going to 6 the manufacturer to get the watt profile confirmed, 7 so that's something you could ask at that point, I 8 think; right? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: It would save a lot of 10 trouble if somebody could -- maybe what we ought to 11 do is go the manufacturer before we do the work and 12 get some guidance. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, to ask is that a two 14 stage or does it have more stages I guess is your 15 question; right? 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: How does the 14.9 apply, 17 does it apply if you're operating at two stage? 18 MALE SPEAKER: I'll be honest with you, I 19 don't know you could test to (inaudible) air 20 temperature with two stages on the (inaudible). I 21 don't think you could test that incorrectly. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: You can certainly with

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 215 1 that being a single compressor operating adjust 2 your airflow to get the same discharge temperature. 3 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but you're going to 4 end up with a lot of degradation factors. A 5 two-stage VAV unit is something a customer is not 6 going to buy. (Speaking under breath). 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's my question. 8 MALE SPEAKER: That's why I'm not sure 9 why you're trying to model a two-stage unit as VAV. 10 It's not something somebody would buy. 11 MALE SPEAKER: What I want to know is how 12 do I get an EL4? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: With a VAV. 14 MALE SPEAKER: And know what -- and have 15 the information. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Unless the manufacturers 17 provide... 18 MALE SPEAKER: So you want to model VAV 19 and CV in every single case? 20 MALE SPEAKER: That's I think the 21 recommendation. 22 MALE SPEAKER: You're going to need at

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 216 1 least three stages. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is three stages 3 sufficient? 4 MALE SPEAKER: No, I think actually it 5 says four, 30 tons. 6 (Simultaneous talking). 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: The product literature 8 does not tell us except in a limited circumstance 9 which -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Did everyone hear her 12 comment? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: I just had the question. I 14 just wanted to make sure I was clear. The 15 compressor model numbers, those are the ones that 16 heat -- that they're modeling. They're not the 17 ones that are actually in the physical unit. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm hearing -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us make our own 20 compressors. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm hearing four from a 22 couple people.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 217 1 MALE SPEAKER: Once it gets over 25 tons, 2 it goes to four. 3 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, that's why I 4 was picking on that one line earlier. It didn't 5 make sense to me that that's the reason. Maybe you 6 ought to double check that EL4. 7 MALE SPEAKER: It didn't make sense to us 8 either. 9 MR. ZENDAH: It doesn't have to be VAV to 10 -- it doesn't have to be. That's a constant 11 volume, the way I look at it. The way it is, it 12 cannot get to VAV. It won't meet the VAV 13 requirements. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: My understanding is 15 that, what I've heard today, (inaudible) of these 16 units would be installed VAV at this efficiency 17 level. We'll -- it sounds like a guidances as to 18 working with VAV manufacturers to try to get some 19 (inaudible). 20 So I think we've covered this topic. We 21 kind of already jumped into (inaudible) VAV. I 22 think we probably covered of this. I've listed

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 218 1 potential complications at the bottom here and 2 these are things that (coughing) pre-ARSAC meetings 3 regarding compressor capacity, variation of ambient 4 temperatures, so discharge temperature would vary, 5 the discharge temperature reset, which could apply 6 (inaudible). Do we really want to address that? 7 MALE SPEAKER: There's a lot of things 8 you kind of can't address. You can't address 9 supplier reset, static pressure reset, energy 10 recovery, demand ventilation. Those are all things 11 that save energy, but you just can't address them, 12 unless you're re-run (inaudible). 13 Those are ones that, whether it's EL1 or 14 EL4, like demand ventilation, I don't think it's 15 going to make a big difference. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Probably not. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Relative-wise. I mean, 18 your (inaudible) energy may be more than actually 19 saved in the real world. 20 MALE SPEAKER: So you if you save 20 21 percent, then it would be -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: For both of them.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 219 1 MALE SPEAKER: -- but it probably doesn't 2 say that. 3 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible), it's just 4 tough to model, unless -- I mean, I think the 5 message I get from this whole thing is -- and when 6 we do this again, we really ought to have models 7 that we can run. Don't use this historical model 8 that we can't run. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: It certainly will be -- 10 MALE SPEAKER: We'll all be gone by then, 11 I know. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Then this other slide 14 was about VAV units with single-speed compressors 15 and that's what we get here (speaking under breath) 16 at least three or four. 17 I think at that point we move on to cost, 18 so transition to James. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'm going to suggest 20 that we push it through, the cost portion of this 21 and call it a day. I'm seeing some heavy -- 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Quick question: Do we want

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 220 1 to hear just from (inaudible) counsel's office 2 (inaudible) status? 3 MALE SPEAKER: The 60 seconds that -- 4 MS. HOFFMAN: You may recall on April 5 28th, there were quite a few questions for the 6 legal staff, general counsel (inaudible, and you 7 promised to get back to us, so -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: Here I am. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: And here he is. 10 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible) answered over 11 lunch, weren't they? 12 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me? 13 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible), all of those 14 over lunch, weren't they? 15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but we didn't say 16 which lunch. 17 MR. STAS: This is Eric Stas from DOE. I 18 just wanted to take the opportunity to report back 19 to the working group on the five legal questions 20 that Andrew raised. They're very important 21 questions. Obviously they touch upon a number of 22 topics related to longstanding view

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 221 1 interpretations, so we've had at least a couple of 2 meetings to discuss this. 3 Like I said, they're quite (inaudible) 4 questions with a lot of implications, so we're not 5 quite there to give answers just yet, but we're 6 certainly thinking about them, working on them. 7 Between today and tomorrow is not very much time, 8 so we can expect answers tomorrow. 9 Fingers crossed (inaudible) the next 10 meeting, and I will keep urging people along to get 11 answers to you. I'll just say move forward and try 12 to make progress in all other areas. (Inaudible) 13 going on, just think about things maybe in the 14 alternative, but we'll try to (inaudible) as soon 15 as possible. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Eric, and I 17 suggest that the facilitators are requesting that 18 we have an answer for the May 20th meeting. I'm 19 not sure what clout that is, but I thought maybe it 20 would help, so, okay... 21 MR. BATTAGLIA: (Inaudible), this is 22 James Battaglia.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 222 1 MS. HOFFMAN: A little louder, please. 2 MR. BATTAGLIA: Just to start getting 3 into cost. As a reminder, and I know we mentioned 4 this at previous meetings, but the NOPR analysis 5 was based upon costing out the energy models units 6 from the energy use -- or the energy analysis from 7 NOPR. 8 For this new analysis, we have de-coupled 9 the energy modeling and the cost modeling, so now 10 we're -- in order to capture a more representative 11 cost without using the manufacturing cost model as 12 based on the physical and catalog tear-downs to 13 come up with incremental costs that are more 14 representative of the market. 15 So as we've mentioned, we have two 16 separate airflow pass, design pass, for the CAV and 17 -- for SAV for seven and a half and 15 tons at EL1 18 and EL2. 19 For seven and a half and 15 tons, we've 20 -- what we've done is we've used the cost model in 21 the catalog tear-downs and physical tear-downs to 22 estimate the incremental manufacturing cost for

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 223 1 each manufacturer individually and then we averaged 2 the results. 3 So in doing that, in some cases, we -- 4 for each manufacturer, we obviously don't have 5 IEERs spanning the full range of efficiency levels 6 that we're analyzing. So the primary method that 7 we're using to estimate costs at those levels where 8 we don't have actual models is that we're linearly 9 interpellating or extrapolating the results within 10 reason. 11 For example if we had a unit that -- or 12 two units that were at 12 and a half and 13 IEER 13 and the efficiency level was at 13.2, we'd use 14 those two models to extrapolate the cost to get to 15 that level. 16 Now, for efficiency levels that we have 17 very few models, maybe one or two, at those higher 18 -- for example, for the higher efficiency levels, 19 what we've done is try to ensure that the costs are 20 representative of an industry average. 21 So, for example, and I think we mentioned 22 this in preliminary discussions, but for EL4 for

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 224 1 seven and a half and 15 tons what we did was we 2 applied the relative percentage increase in cost 3 for the one manufacturer available across the other 4 manufacturers to be able to better represent all 5 the production factors that they were -- other 6 manufacturing... 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 8 I'm not sure I want the answer that you 9 (inaudible) refer to average. My sense that the 10 different OEMs in the room have different market 11 shares and that they even vary by size of the 12 equipment. So are these weighted by model number, 13 by estimated shipment sales, or are these just 14 straightforward averages with Manufacturer A, 15 Manufacturer Z? 16 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. They're 17 just straight averages. I mean, we'd obviously 18 welcome a market share by manufacturer that we 19 could use to weight the values but in the absence 20 of (inaudible) averaged. 21 MR. SACHS: So they're not even model 22 number weighted?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 225 1 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. 2 MR. SACHS: So especially manufacturers 3 equal to a major player in the RTU market? 4 MR. BATTAGLIA: Again, this was based on 5 only manufacturers that had enough information in 6 the product literature. So I guess I can't say 7 whether -- if we were to take an average of just 8 those with the (inaudible) representative, we'd 9 have to have the market share data. Or if the 10 agreement to use a model we have to -- 11 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey. 12 I appreciate that. It just is another 13 source of uncertainty I think, (inaudible). 14 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for 30 ton, we have -- 15 we have some costs that (coughing) this level, but 16 at this point we are seeking feedback and 17 information on the approach to the cost efficiency 18 curb. 19 The reasons for that is there are very 20 few models at 30 tons to which -- for which to 21 create a full cost deficiency prepared for each 22 manufacturer.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 226 1 We also are running into issues where you 2 have different box sizes. So you have the smaller 3 cabinet units that may more closely represent 4 lower-capacity units and then you have the larger 5 ones that may more closely represent the 6 higher-capacity unit, similar to what you'd see for 7 industrial applications. 8 We'll get into the 30-ton costs a bit 9 later. We have a slide for that. 10 In the past meetings, we've had some 11 questions about the controls so we -- we've taken a 12 look at that and we've refined our analysis. This 13 just provides an overview of our assumptions for 14 each level of control that's needed for each type 15 of product, type of equipment. 16 So what we've done is we've varied the 17 controls by unit size and complexity. So for below 18 30 tons, what we modeled is -- for the base, what 19 you'd see are controls similar to what are found in 20 residential RTUs that are capable of operating 21 single compressor and may interface with contactors 22 that do the actual (inaudible) switching. So you'd

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 227 1 have your basic (inaudible) is to control the 2 contactors and that would interface with the single 3 24 on/off thermostat for -- up to two compressor 4 stages. 5 Once you get into adding VFDs for the SAV 6 models, that triggered an additional control cost 7 for more complex control systems that use 8 additional sensor feedback to control the speed of 9 the fans. 10 So these are, as I said, more 11 sophisticated controls running on 20 Volt control 12 boards that can control up to three stages or more 13 compressors and they may also do (inaudible) fan 14 staging. 15 Then for variable speed compressors -- 16 any units with variable speed compressors, add 17 again three additional control costs. For more 18 sophisticated controls to monitor additional sensor 19 feedback for (inaudible) temperature, moisture, et 20 cetera, that also (coughing) with the VFD. That is 21 capable of providing feedback and controlling the 22 VFD system for the compressor.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 228 1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 2 So are we assuming that the economize and 3 controls are similar or in general the same for all 4 these three levels or where does it economize at 5 some other stage, or you looked at several more 6 stages? 7 MR. BATTAGLIA: We did not model 8 economize and controls since it's not part of the 9 IEER-rated unit. I assume that may not change 10 efficiency level. 11 MALE SPEAKER: It does get impact a 12 little bit when you go to changing fan speeds. You 13 have to impact economize and control speeds. 14 MR. HUNT: Should there be a cost to 15 upgrade here or are these buckets big enough to 16 hold the cost of -- 17 MALE SPEAKER: It depends. It depends on 18 how creative people can get them, what they do. 19 MR. HUNT: Yeah. Well, there's an RTU, 20 or something, very complex. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So if I understand it, the 22 assumption is that for a constant-volume unit

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 229 1 (inaudible) 30 tons, you're just assuming a simple 2 control staged air volume, you add the VFD, plus 3 more sophisticated control costs for it and then 4 for a variable speed, it's more sophisticated 5 controls. 6 So you're ignoring whatever's in the unit 7 and you're just adding costs for -- you're assuming 8 the costs to based on these assumptions? 9 MS. HOFFMAN: Make it universal across. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. The residential 11 rooftop units, I assume you're talking about 12 single-face commercial rooftop units; right? 13 MR. BATTAGLIA: Do you know if they're -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Never mind. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, this whole study is 16 created in five tons, so it's all commercial... 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 18 I mean, those models are available single 19 base or three base. 20 MALE SPEAKER: My comment was just that 21 they're not residential really. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 230 1 MR. WHITWELL: It's not relevant. It's 2 another subject. 3 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for above 30 tons 4 would -- we revised our analysis and (inaudible) 5 from the base controls and based on what we've -- 6 what our research suggests and based on our review 7 of models. 8 So for those systems what we've added is 9 more heavy duty power (inaudible) to -- what we saw 10 was those units were adding in three-ball circuit 11 breakers. For the major subassemblies, we have 12 compressors and fans, foreign and VA transformers, 13 and also compressor current (inaudible) for -- 14 whether that's for safety or any other reasons. 15 Regardless of capacity, we're also 16 modeling for any -- all VAV units that they have 17 that third-level sophisticated controller and that 18 would -- and on top of that, they would have a DDC 19 interface to interface with the built-in control 20 system. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Is that the same for the 22 staged air volume, it's in the same control?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 231 1 MR. BATTAGLIA: We did not assume that 2 staged air would require the DDC, just for the 3 variable VAV. 4 MR. WHITWELL: But you must have made 5 some assumption for our difference between the 6 staged air volume and the constant volume, but 7 there's -- 8 MR. BATTAGLIA: In terms of the other 9 levels (inaudible)? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, well, above -- below 11 30 tons, you assume a different control for a 12 constant volume versus staged air volume. 13 MR. BATTAGLIA: In the energy modeling 14 since we only considered CAV versus VAV, we just 15 considered those also. The CAV level would have 16 that -- the more basic controller scaled up to that 17 30-ton level, but... 18 MR. WHITWELL: So if it's not constant 19 volume, then it's got the VAV control? 20 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. 21 MR. STARR: So this is supposed to be, I 22 think, maybe Dick can advise on it, but isn't above

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 232 1 a certain tonnage you have to have a DDC system... 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Nope. 3 MALE SPEAKER: (Speaking under breath). 4 If you don't have one -- 5 MR. STARR: The staged air volume not 6 necessarily. I thought when you got to certain 7 size equipment that you would start (inaudible) DDC 8 systems where available. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: So this is our latest 10 cost efficiency curb. So the black line is the 11 Path 1 CAV at levels below EL3 and Path 2 is for -- 12 is using SAV for all efficiency levels above the 13 baseline. 14 Based on our -- sorry, the red dot there 15 is also -- since we're considering both the single 16 circuit and dual circuit, we did provide two 17 baseline costs for that level. 18 For EL3 we also observed that this level 19 was achieved by VAV, so we provided a (inaudible) 20 point there, the blue dot, that includes in the 21 average across manufacturers, the cost for a unit 22 using VAV.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 233 1 MR. WHITWELL: Probably dumb question, 2 but Path 1 versus Path 2, what is the difference? 3 MR. BATTAGLIA: So Path 1 is the CAV 4 below EL3 and Path 2 is above baseline is all SAV. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So what's the difference 6 then between the path to and the EL3 SAV and DAV at 7 the same IEER level? 8 MR. BATTAGLIA: So the grey line is just 9 considering SAV unites. Then the blue dot is 10 averaging SAV and VAV. 11 Does that make sense? 12 MR. WHITWELL: No. 13 MR. BATTAGLIA: So this point here is 14 only SAV. This point is averaging manufactuers 15 that -- is averaging, so models that are SAV and 16 models that are VAV. So not the same model as SAV 17 or VAV, but if one manufacturer applies VAV to get 18 to that level, we added to the average. 19 What we're asking for feedback here on is 20 which approach -- or whether -- yeah, which 21 approach we should be taking, whether we should 22 only be considering SAV because it's lower cost

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 234 1 option to get to that number or should we be 2 factoring in the cost for SAV and VAV... 3 MR. deLASKI: (Inaudible), this is 4 Andrew. 5 I thought I heard earlier that VAV it 6 might -- maybe it could happen, we were talking 7 offline here, but it's a pretty rare beast. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want this off the 9 record? 10 MR. deLASKI: No. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Because you said "offline". 12 MR. deLASKI: We were chatting over here. 13 (Inaudible) earlier is VAV actually 14 happening at seven-and-a-half tons and the answer 15 was -- we heard earlier today that it was a pretty 16

-- 17 MALE SPEAKER: It's primarily the control 18 cost difference I assume is what we're looking at 19 there. 20 MR. BATTAGLIA: So their recommendation 21 is to just consider SAV? 22 MALE SPEAKER: For that tonnage.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 235 1 MR. BATTAGLIA: For that tonnage. 2 MALE SPEAKER: I agree, that's what we 3 said earlier. 4 MR. BATTAGLIA: So these are the same 5 costs presented at the table. We've also added in 6 the prior estimates for shipping costs and the 7 shipping weight -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, not off the top of my 9 head. I'll have to go look at -- 10 MR. BATTAGLIA: Maybe if you -- tomorrow 11 or the next meeting (inaudible), if you want to do 12 that, too. 13 MS. HOFFMAN: May I ask other folks that 14 might help with shipping costs besides Jill and 15 shipping weight? 16 MR. SACHS: I can't help with that. This 17 is Harvey, but before we get to that, can you just 18 remind me on table -- on Slide 45 that enormous 19 (inaudible) are just under 16 to just under 20 a 20 very modest cost, what was -- did technology 21 change? 22 MR. BATTAGLIA: So that is going to

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 236 1 assume a circuit (inaudible) -- 2 MR. SACHS: Single circuit. 3 MR. BATTAGLIA: -- tandem compressors. We 4 did not show significant -- again, that's the cost 5 increase that we modeled in our cost... 6 I think there may be other -- few other 7 design changes, but I think that's the main change. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. 9 Just a quick question to Jill on shipping 10 costs and shipping -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Any of it, I think. Any of 12 it, you have to look at -- any of it, you have to 13 look back at, it's not just shipping. 14 But I do have a question on shipping: So 15 how can something that weighs about 60 pounds more 16 be the same shipping cost? 17 MR. BATTAGLIA: For shipping costs what 18 we did was we -- based on the units that we 19 analyzed, we looked at the cabinet size and 20 determined whether that's going to cause a break in 21 the number of shipping units so you can fit into a 22 trailer?

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 237 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Almost none of these go on 2 -- into a trailer. Almost all of those go on a 3 flatbed. 4 MR. BATTAGLIA: Great. Also just to 5 clarify, the shipping cost what we've used -- come 6 up with is from the from the middle of the U.S. to 7 a coast. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're not doing it on 9 pounds and weight? 10 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: You're doing it just be 12 size -- 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Guys, wrap it up. 14 (Simultaneous talking.) 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Jill, if you're flying by 16 helicopter -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: True. 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Moving right along. 19 MR. BATTAGLIA: This is the cost 20 efficiency curve for -- we get the same Path 1 -- 21 Path 1 is CAV up through EL2 and then Path 2 is SAV 22 above...

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 238 1 MS. HOOTMAN: VAV is where? 2 MR. BATTAGLIA: For 15 ton, we did not 3 include any VAV (inaudible). 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Dick, no VAV at 15 tons? 5 MALE SPEAKER: Well, people still do 6 them, sure. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: When we get into those 8 higher efficiency, we are going to be more and more 9 (inaudible)? 10 MR. BATTAGLIA: I think the mass tech 11 (sounds like) is VAV, sorry. 12 MALE SPEAKER: It comes down to people 13 (speaking under breath). 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, exactly. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Versus a true VAV. It's 16 just -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just thinking an EL3 18 that it might be a bigger percentage. 19 MALE SPEAKER: VAV (inaudible) everybody, 20 got different zone and temperature requirements. 21 MALE SPEAKER: One thing would be helpful 22 if we do consider that is what percentage of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 239 1 shipment, so (speaking under breath). 2 MR. deLASKI: James, I guess I'm -- 3 that's a valid question but I also think that the 4 way you pose it back when you pose it for 5 seven-and-a-half tons is if your task is to model 6 the least cost path, that the cost for the 7 compliant product -- I'm a manufacturer of a 8 (inaudible) compliant product, I don't have to ship 9 the VAV unit; right? I'm shipping the VAV because 10 that's meeting customer demand -- a customer 11 requirement. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be the cheapest -- 13 cheapest way to get there. 14 MR. deLASKI: Well, then it should be 15 modeled. But the fact that it's seven-and-a-half 16 ton, it's not the cheapest way. It was more 17 expensive, so would you weight that in would be my 18 question. You don't have to answer that, but I'm 19 just -- my hypothesis would be that you wouldn't 20 weight that in because it's not -- it's not below 21 cost (inaudible) comply. 22 MALE SPEAKER: Actually what the guy in

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 240 1 the real world is going to do if he's -- he's got a 2 zoning requirement, he'll probably put two units on 3 instead of putting one VAV. 4 MALE SPEAKER: If he's looking for 5 zoning, he's got two zones. One different 6 (inaudible) departments. He's got to be able to 7 put VAV unit on it and (inaudible). Where if you 8 put two units on, one for each zone, and he'll do 9 it either way. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 11 The translation of that is he can put on 12 1 VAV unit and ensure that both zones will be 13 dissatisfied or put two different units on and hope 14 that one zone will be happy. 15 MALE SPEAKER: You can -- do like 16 (inaudible) did, put 20 on it, some are heating and 17 some are cooling. On the average, you're okay. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: So true. 19 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for 30 tons, this is 20 the path we put together based on equipment that's 21 at the nominal 30 tons. So again, Path 1 is CAV 22 through EL2.5. The EL3 through mass tech is VAV

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 241 1 and then from Path 2 is VAV for all efficiencies 2 above baseline. 3 So the issue here is the different -- 4 what we're seeing with different cabinet sizes -- 5 what we saw is you have some equipment platforms 6 that 20 to 60 tons and then another (inaudible) 30 7 to 100 tons, so you have that significant 8 difference in costs just based on the platform. 9 So what we're trying to seek feedback on 10 is how to do we come up with a representative cost 11 efficiency curve at 30 tons with the two different 12 paths, considering the difference in the cabinet 13 platforms? 14 Again, one thing we could do is we could 15 weight the cost for small versus large cabinets by 16 shipments -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) pulling 18 shipment out of that (inaudible), pulling it for 19 you in the 240 to (inaudible) so it's all together. 20 So those different platforms and one that is more 21 alike commercial and one is heavy industrial, 22 they're all being lumped together.

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 242 1 MALE SPEAKER: Isn't the number you're 2 really trying to get to is the delta cost, not the 3 absolute cost? 4 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. That's 5 -- we can certainly come up with an average based 6 on that cost, but I think the delta is (inaudible). 7 MALE SPEAKER: Jill had it right. There's 8 a light commercial, 20 to 60 tons, heavy 9 commercial. But the delta if you get to efficiency 10 may not be that much difference. She knows a 11 little bit more on one or the other. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, your weights and 13 shipping costs are definitely -- 14 MALE SPEAKER: Well, it's like -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Those I think are on the 16 fringe of -- 17 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but most of our 18 units don't load a truck to 30,000 pounds, it's 19 volume and how many can fit on the truck. Sixty 20 it's usually one, maybe two. 21 MR. BATTAGLIA: Is the suggestion to if 22 we look at one or -- whichever one -- if either of

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 243 1 them have enough (inaudible) a full curve, you get 2 an accurate estimate of the full incremental cost? 3 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. You wouldn't want 4 to jump from a light to a heavy and try and compare 5 costs. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 7 MALE SPEAKER: You one stay in one chasse 8 style. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Also one of the issue -- 10 I guess maybe at the baseline where we don't have 11 as many units is linearly extrapolated and -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: At the baseline linearly? 13 MR. BATTAGLIA: Using these units at 11.1 14 or 11.3, using this to extrapolate down to 15 (inaudible). 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably, yeah. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Test procedure doesn't 18 allow extrapolation. Just kidding. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. He's got to do it 20 now before -- 21 MALE SPEAKER: Call it a day? 22 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Thank you. We're

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 244 1 going to call it a day. We're starting very early 2 tomorrow, 8:00 a.m. 3 (Thereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 4 4:23 P.M.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Meeting May 11, 2015 245 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 accurate record. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 financially interested in the action. 12 Dated this 26th day of May, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22



### 202-220-4158 Kylie S. Shepherd



### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A a.m 1:9 244:2 able51:4 57:8

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## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 agreements

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## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 43:9 44:2 45:17,19 54:11 62:2 64:12 66:9 69:10 83:14 90:12 91:13 91:20 92:2,4 92:5,13 98:4 98:12 102:1 102:4,18 105:4 106:17 109:5 115:1 115:11 116:22 117:7 122:18 123:8 126:13 127:9 127:18 129:13,22 131:4 133:10 135:15 146:13 147:3 153:13 161:12 171:5 172:11,12,17 173:22 175:10 176:21 178:2 178:11 179:7 182:11 190:20 191:5 196:1 197:4 198:11 207:14 208:2 210:17,20 222:4,6,8 226:12 230:4 analyze46:7 analyzed31:2

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## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 associated

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233:10,14,15 avoided

166:22 aware 59:7

110:2 143:5 202:7 Awareness

5:9 away39:17

105:16 145:11 196:12 B back4:9 7:20

11:22 13:20 19:13 26:11 37:20 41:7 44:14 49:19 51:22 52:3,5 58:21 61:10 62:12 67:9 70:14 72:4 75:9 77:21 84:8 86:14 86:21 88:3 88:12,16 93:5,8 94:16 97:9 98:1 106:8,9,14 107:12 109:6 112:20 115:17,17 117:2 119:15 122:22,22 123:1 124:10 124:15 125:3 125:4 126:2 134:4,11 136:17,18 147:16 156:8 156:15 165:11 168:11 170:11,16,18 173:3,9 180:22 181:1 204:21 220:7 220:18 236:13 239:4 backup 108:16 backwards

91:8 134:4 154:4 bad 154:8 ball 103:16 Bantle2:2 4:2

4:3,14 6:1,7 10:9 129:17 129:20 130:4 130:8 132:21 133:9,16 134:1 171:8 Barkas4:15 barrier58:12 barriers 58:16 base43:2,7,10

44:2 115:10 139:16 161:4 161:10,19 162:9,17 163:12 165:8 165:14,18 174:20 208:19 212:10 226:18 229:19,19 230:5 base-case

89:12,13 based 6:6

18:13 22:1 23:5,6,7,9 33:6 34:13 34:14 36:7 36:20 62:8 64:13,21 67:14 69:10 81:3 84:15 92:18 110:14 115:6 121:7 131:7,12 146:18 148:14 152:8 152:10 171:17 174:6 179:19 181:8 195:17 198:7 206:13 213:18 222:5 222:12 225:4 229:8 230:5 230:6 232:14 236:18 240:20 241:8 242:5 baseline 11:8

32:22 105:11 105:16 123:2 123:7 146:13 146:15 172:3 181:19 192:12 212:21 213:5 232:13,17 233:4 241:2 243:10,12 basic21:22

31:9 32:15 227:1 231:16 basically

24:18 52:21 80:22 83:4 92:6 98:7 115:21 154:2 163:6,6 169:20 189:2 191:2 208:12 209:6 basis 83:15

84:5,7 172:16 173:16 176:21 177:19 183:2 bat 177:15 Battaglia2:3

221:21,22 222:2 224:16 225:1,4,14 228:7 229:13 230:3 231:1 231:8,13,20 232:9 233:3 233:8,13 234:20 235:1 235:4,10,22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 236:3,17 237:4,10,19 238:2,10 240:19 242:4 242:21 243:9 243:13 battery80:19 Bay 17:22 beast234:7 beating 52:5 bed 93:18

126:12 before4:12

6:8 10:12 24:22 30:17 44:6 54:18 54:19 64:5 64:11 69:12 77:17 80:7 80:21 82:6 86:8 101:5 109:2 119:12 125:6 127:16 128:9 132:21 133:6,7 135:16,19 136:8 144:4 144:5 178:14 196:20 214:11 235:17 243:20 begin 72:3 beginning

17:18 being 19:19

31:16 39:17 52:18 59:5 62:12 66:6,7 74:18 79:8 79:19 81:3 84:3,3 85:12 94:3,5 96:9 106:19 126:12 146:5 163:5 179:20 215:1 241:22 believe4:11

52:15 70:19 100:4,4 142:22 143:1 believed 90:6 below27:10

38:17 43:5 55:7 65:22 66:2 69:11 94:8 102:8 143:17 226:17 231:10 232:11 233:4 239:20 benefit22:10

52:10 60:17 89:9,18 111:18 Berkeley

109:16 besides 35:7

235:14 best38:20

194:16 208:1 better8:14

23:21 38:20 38:20 61:12 93:15 105:13 145:21 195:12 224:4 between 36:22

70:3 75:20 98:20 108:1 108:3 115:8 118:19 119:9 120:11 122:17 129:7 149:15 160:19 168:2 172:8 192:12 202:14 209:17 211:12 221:7 231:5 233:6 bid 151:4 big 13:14

42:10,20,21 49:16 51:3 56:22 57:13 57:15 64:19 99:2 120:4 120:12 121:22 123:6 123:11 132:1 145:22 167:10 186:10 194:22 201:2 218:15 228:15 bigger51:7

61:18 112:1 147:21 148:18 153:22 162:3 167:2 192:16 196:14,14 206:8 238:18 biggest 197:22 Bill's 75:4 billion 45:14

96:9 bins 127:20

131:22 bit7:22 9:3

14:19 33:2 42:16,16 60:7 61:9,17 85:16 87:20 90:18 112:21 117:5 137:18 151:20 196:1 207:8 212:7 226:8 228:12 242:11 black232:10 blast83:13

84:12 85:8 86:2 88:3 91:15 92:14 92:17 93:9 94:1,6,10 102:5,21 103:1 110:3 112:22 117:13 blowing 211:9 blue99:10

199:11 232:20 233:9 board 74:11 boards227:12 Bob5:7 10:15

15:10 18:15 35:3 36:16 38:4,5 40:3 59:10 62:3 63:7 64:3 66:10 69:5 71:18 75:2 76:15 140:2 142:19 150:21 155:13 156:17,18 157:16 165:7 185:4 192:6 Bob's73:22

74:10 bogged

210:19 book8:20 books 101:17 both 16:6 25:8

44:2,10 50:2 50:13 53:6 89:13 114:3 159:7 165:18 179:3 180:19 184:20 218:22 232:15 240:12 bottom 30:20

181:13,17 218:1 bottom-line

53:12 bought57:21 Boulevard 1:8 bound 117:4,5 bounding

116:22 117:3 box49:22 50:1

50:12,15 72:9 193:8 193:11,12 194:20,22 195:1 197:22 197:22 200:16,22 201:7 226:2 boxes 183:22

184:3,7 203:21 bracket 128:20 break6:9 80:7

116:18 124:10 159:18 170:2 170:8 193:13 194:3,5 206:22 207:1 236:20 breakdowns

187:19 breakers

230:11 breaks 50:7

193:16 196:2 breath 11:18

23:19 30:16

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 31:17 32:4 32:13,17 33:22 34:9 35:13 40:10 41:6 44:3 45:12 47:4 49:14,16 51:10 53:10 68:4 172:2 172:14 176:14 180:4 189:17 191:4 195:14 198:8 199:20 200:3 203:19 205:1 206:11 215:6 219:15 232:3 238:13 239:1 bring 22:2

106:20 125:3 bringing 75:8 brings 11:19

53:12 broken 88:8

159:12 brought63:21

86:4 145:16 BT55:2 BTU 14:12 BTUs 16:14

55:3 bucket42:15 buckets

121:11 210:1 228:15 build 28:20,22

28:22 29:2,3 building 10:18

41:14 42:2 75:9 77:7,17 77:19 78:5 80:14 81:4 83:13,18 84:12,15 85:8 86:2 87:10,21 92:11,18 99:8,11 101:10 102:12 104:15 105:5 105:14 111:6 112:13,17 114:7 123:3 127:21 129:14 138:4 166:21 184:2 203:19 205:21 206:6 206:9 211:14 211:22 buildings

28:13 31:3 32:18 60:16 81:13 83:9 83:10,22 85:9,20 87:8 88:22 91:15 96:11 100:22 101:10,16 103:3 107:3 110:12 112:22 113:21 114:15 117:14 118:7 121:9,13,18 122:3 128:14 131:7 138:5 205:22 built-in 230:19 bumping 61:9 bunch 61:11

184:3 burden 58:3,5 burn 75:10,11

75:13,15,18 75:20 76:3 burner79:10 business47:4

175:1 buy56:1 79:18

183:13 215:6 215:10 buying54:13 C C2:1 3:1 4:1

192:10 cabinet 13:19

14:5 37:7 63:8,15,16 67:13,19,21 68:10 194:2 194:6,11,12 194:13 195:5 195:6,17 196:2,14 226:3 236:19 241:4,12 cabinets 62:13

241:15 cables 154:16 calculate 97:9 calculated

188:8 189:14 calculates

92:17 151:2 calculation

22:2,13 93:3 110:8 189:1 189:9 calculations

187:19 California4:19

15:8 16:1 24:2 113:12 call 6:2 21:14

32:14 72:21 105:12 160:11 219:21 243:21 244:1 called 126:12 Calling 10:14 calls 16:16 came62:12

90:21,21 91:2 cantilever

166:3 capable

226:20 227:21 capacities

191:22 capacity 14:11

14:18 87:16 90:4 92:17 93:4 182:10 189:4,6 193:19 194:22 195:2 198:16 199:15 201:20 202:12 207:17 211:16 218:3 230:15 capital 42:17

201:9 capture

162:17 203:2 222:10 capturing

161:9 208:14 cardboard

107:17 care82:11

134:1 career88:17 careful 105:15

105:19 117:5 122:21 123:13 cares 13:12 carrier5:7

20:19 35:3 36:17 40:4 59:11 62:4 140:2,6 150:21 157:17 carve 137:20 case 13:21

32:15 35:10 41:17 43:2,7 43:10 44:2,3 47:5 52:12 54:9 88:5 89:12,14 115:21 161:4 161:10,20 162:6,9,18 163:20 164:10 179:9 181:9,9 182:21 183:18 187:22 193:5 208:19 209:1 212:10 215:19 cases 27:13

53:5 62:14 62:17 68:14 68:16 201:19 223:3 catalog 174:5

222:12,21 catch-up

123:9 categories

207:3 category96:17

210:4,16,22 CAUCs55:20 caucus 169:1

170:9,15

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 caught7:2 cause22:17

24:14 59:17 236:20 causes29:9

63:8 caustic58:7 CAV 185:7

222:16 231:14,15 232:11 233:3 237:21 240:21 CBAS 135:14 CBEC84:15

93:21 121:1 CBECs84:14

85:2 121:7 CBSA 138:3 CC 158:17 CEC 106:4 center 175:1 central 55:19 certain 69:19

79:5 84:19 107:7 117:19 118:8 199:14 208:16,20 232:1,6 certainly57:20

84:6 133:5 138:14 146:8 153:14 157:12,14 173:15 175:4 177:13 198:9 200:12 214:22 219:9 221:6 242:5 CERTIFICATE

245:1 certification

20:5,8 21:19 22:9,10 29:22 30:7 46:11,12 139:13 certified 39:9

245:3 certify 142:19

245:4,7 certifying

142:15 cetera227:20 CFM 147:13,17

148:15 181:20 CFMs 181:19 challenge

212:22 chance 142:4

158:6 187:8 change7:4

25:1 34:7 43:11 45:20 51:9,11 55:15 83:1 85:2 90:7 91:10 98:3 102:19,20,21 118:22 119:21 120:4 121:22 148:3 150:14 178:3 179:5 192:10 192:11 194:13 195:1 207:4 228:9 235:21 236:7 changed 21:6

21:9,21 26:9 80:19 82:5 165:15 changeover

207:1 changes 12:1

35:20 102:6 120:3,4 126:17 156:4 165:17 236:7 changing

12:12 24:17 43:8 104:14 109:6 193:4 196:4 228:12 channeling

200:8 channels

184:11 characteristi...

183:3 charge 107:1 Charlie23:15 Charlie's

23:16 chart37:11,20

43:7 56:22 192:14 charts200:2 chasing

156:17 chasse38:14

199:14,16 243:7 chasses

200:17 chatting

234:12 cheapest

239:12,13,16 check39:14

67:6 130:1 130:10 141:22 157:17 168:17 217:6 checked 34:18

42:3 86:14 93:5 chewing

125:14 Chicago87:6 87:21 112:12 chiseling

105:16 choice56:2

191:19 208:1 chosen 44:9 chuckle

125:10 churches

40:10 circles 212:7 circuit 146:11

146:12 177:2 177:3,5 187:2 230:10 232:16,16 236:1,2 circuitries

181:11 circuitry 181:3

181:8 circuits 180:18

181:13,16 185:10 circumstance

216:8 cities 95:1 city81:4 83:10 city-state

75:12 76:4 claim 145:11

145:12 claiming 145:2 clarification

17:14 clarify237:5 class 18:13

137:20 141:5 classes 48:11

53:18 171:19 176:19 192:2 clear 140:22

180:10 216:14 climate26:21 27:3 60:13 97:6 climates29:7

60:15 close34:18

77:16,18 100:11 119:1 204:3 closely226:3

226:5 closer27:16

108:1 113:18 132:8 180:5 180:6 clout221:19 clue 140:1 cluster81:18

81:22 co-facilitator

4:16 coast 17:19,21

79:6 237:7 Cochran 2:5

5:11,11 code86:16

99:11,19 101:17 114:5 123:9 141:19 codes41:14

42:2 58:9 99:8,12 100:4 104:12 104:13 coil 56:12,12

60:2 180:18 coincided

15:21 cold 60:15

75:5,12,19 76:7,9,10 79:1 collection

134:17

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 collective

157:11 collision 15:15

15:16 color 192:15

193:2 column 32:8

101:11 columns83:21

97:1 combination

46:5 87:12 combinations

46:7 178:6 188:6 combing

44:15 come57:22

72:4 81:2 83:11 98:18 103:5 107:12 114:20 124:10 129:3 134:16 138:20 154:2 154:3 156:15 163:14 164:7 170:11 177:21 197:9 205:11 222:13 237:5 241:10 242:5 comes 69:17

92:8 106:11 109:9 127:12 134:11,17 140:20 145:18 201:1 238:12 comfort30:6 comfortable

130:11 174:21 coming 15:10 31:14 76:22 77:20 110:18 112:20 130:1 136:9 190:8 commencing

65:10 comment

42:20 49:1 60:21 65:16 130:2 136:5 139:1 148:8 164:6 216:12 229:20 commented

148:12 comments

6:11 11:21 12:3 13:20 14:13 27:18 62:12 64:1 108:8 136:3 173:15 213:15 commercial

1:3 11:5,15 16:21 18:7 29:12 41:13 43:14 44:15 44:20 52:22 54:9 57:5 60:8 64:5 78:19,22 79:13 80:3 229:12,16 241:21 242:8 242:9 commission...

101:2 common

140:13 201:7 commonplace

139:7 communicat...

175:7 companies 140:7 company

139:9 140:18 145:1 compare

111:21 174:17 243:4 compared

79:8 compares

202:21 comparison

198:15 202:2 competing

40:15 completely

79:7,7 complex

107:13 227:7 228:20 complexity

38:12 201:9 202:10 226:17 compliance

100:18 101:4 101:5,6,9,12 101:16 104:13,22 123:9 compliant

38:10 100:22 239:7,8 complicated

198:13 complicating

207:20 complications

218:1 compliment

95:8 comply 142:7

239:21 component 188:6,7 components

12:14 189:8 compounding

63:12 compressor

56:8 146:12 146:14 166:11 181:13,15 203:10,12 204:10 213:18 215:1 216:15 218:3 226:21 227:3 227:22 230:13 compressors

54:11,12 56:10 146:12 171:16 177:1 177:4 186:22 216:20 219:14 227:13,15,16 230:12 236:3 concern 41:4

94:19 114:22 concerned

48:19 116:7 119:1 144:18 concerns 15:8

61:8 64:3 175:9 conclude

175:2 192:3 concluded

191:17 conclusion

83:11 196:8 concurrently

42:4 condensat 65:5 condensate

12:11,14 41:11,15 42:14 58:9 65:6,8 69:13 69:21 71:8 78:9 79:14 79:19 97:6 condensated

60:21 condensating

31:9 condensation

13:9 26:15 26:16 29:9 29:13 69:9 74:2 75:3,11 79:15 condense

42:18 condenser

56:8 137:12 137:13 139:15,20 181:14 condensing

11:17 20:21 38:18 41:13 42:8 49:13 57:5 59:13 59:16 70:9 condensity

31:5 condition

55:19 93:2 150:5 conditioner

60:2 conditioners

64:6 conditioning

1:3 36:19 55:18 56:4

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 conditions

28:13 29:8 29:13 151:9 160:15 163:18 178:1 conducted

189:3 191:7 conference

170:1 confidential

175:7 configuration

151:8 configuratio...

14:9 180:12 confirmed

88:19,20 214:6 confused 10:7

75:1 congratulati...

149:19 connected

183:21 245:10 consensus

9:18,19 130:9 171:2 conservative

22:20 25:14 conservativ...

20:10 consider 16:3

63:3 128:12 137:9 234:21 238:22 consideration

45:1 153:11 considered

6:12 43:9 44:8 231:14 231:15 considering

12:1 14:4 68:22 232:15 233:9,22 241:12 considers

146:14 consistent7:3

190:18 192:5 192:21 212:19 constant

184:10 202:6 206:1,19 207:9 209:21 210:3 213:4 217:10 231:6 231:12,18 constant-vol...

183:10 228:22 constructed

122:16 construction

122:13 163:4 Consulting

5:15 consumed

32:18 consumer

52:10 consumption

81:20 94:12 111:5 113:5 114:4 contact 140:17

157:19 contactors

226:21 227:2 contacts

155:15 156:17 containment

16:4,5 content74:14

200:16 contents 73:17 continue

30:13 52:5 119:12 141:18 Continued 3:1 continues

123:6,7 continuous

148:5 209:18 contractor

155:13 156:12 contractor's

153:12 contractors

155:22 163:15 contributing

110:1 contribution

48:20 control 160:9

226:14 227:1 227:6,7,8,11 227:12,17 228:13 229:2 229:3 230:19 230:22 231:11,19 234:17 controller

230:17 231:16 controlling

227:21 controls

226:11,17,19 227:11,18 228:3,8 229:5 230:5 controversial

168:18 convenient 80:8 conversation

7:3 26:11 171:7 conversations

22:22 23:1 converse

162:9,15 conversion

136:12 147:4 151:1,5 152:16 153:1 153:18 160:22 161:1 161:4,8,9,19 162:7 164:9 166:20 191:9 191:19 195:13,19 196:5,13,16 199:19 converting

147:6 150:3 convince

131:18 convinced

109:22 cool 85:3 cool-down

78:4 cooled 40:13

83:14,16 84:13,21 85:4,12,15 86:1 93:19 cooling 40:19

40:22 41:2 48:1 58:1 59:19 60:4,4 60:11 71:21 83:6 84:1,4,6 85:16,20 97:20 102:16 108:17 111:6 121:10,16,19 122:14,16 127:19 128:1 128:13 131:5 137:2 240:17 copper 104:18 correct30:9

32:3 38:22 39:3,5 40:20 52:20 86:2 137:10 142:9 180:13,20 224:16 225:1 231:20 237:10 242:4 correcting

45:6 correction

122:14 correctly

149:20 correlated

82:7 correlation

179:20 180:1 180:3 192:18 213:20 correlations

180:10 188:11 190:15 191:5 199:18 correspondi...

191:3 corrosion

20:21 46:16 79:6,12 corrosion-re...

12:18,22 cost 15:5

31:15 32:3 32:12 37:22 51:10 62:8

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 62:19 65:6 66:9 67:22 91:18 101:4 101:5 127:11 147:5 167:17 176:5,6,8,9 176:13 200:20 201:16 219:17,20 222:3,9,11 222:11,20,22 223:14 224:2 225:17,21 227:6 228:14 228:16 232:10,21 233:22 234:2 234:18 235:20 236:4 236:5,16 237:5,19 239:6,6,21 241:10,15 242:2,3,6 243:2 cost-review

72:5 costing 222:5 costs31:4,8,9

31:10,11,12 32:6,7,11 42:16,17 51:5 54:21 63:12 65:9 66:11 114:4 166:15,15 222:13 223:7 223:19 225:15 226:8 227:17 229:3 229:7,8 232:17 235:5 235:6,14 236:10,17 241:8 242:13 243:5 coughing

31:22 50:7 55:22 66:1 66:14 137:20 138:16 159:22 176:7 208:17 213:21,22 218:2 225:15 227:20 Coughlin 2:6

5:19,19 109:15 114:13 118:12,18,21 120:19 122:12 127:15 131:1 counsel 220:6

245:8,10 counsel's

220:1 count23:6,8,9

23:10 country69:19

84:7,10 couple86:7

99:5 100:15 108:8 126:18 134:20 190:11 216:22 221:1 coupled 90:4

111:22 course 16:1

63:4 81:14 101:3 169:4 Court23:12,15

80:19 cover7:19

16:20 covered 217:20,22 covering 37:2 covers 16:14 crack54:7 crank 126:9,11

153:14 crazy 106:3 create225:21 created 164:4

229:16 creative

228:18 criteria85:1 criterion 85:1 crossed 221:9 cry 116:21 curb225:18

232:10 curbs63:9 curious 182:6 current 12:9

14:7,7 46:21 119:19 142:9 213:6 230:13 currently

12:15 159:2 curve94:22

151:3,5,10 152:16 153:1 155:4 158:11 160:22 161:4 161:8 162:7 162:9,15 163:11 164:9 165:8 166:20 167:5 176:3 190:22 191:12,14,19 192:1,5,6,10 192:11 193:4 194:6,13 195:8,14,20 196:5,13,16 198:7 199:19 200:10,12 237:20 241:11 243:1 curves 136:12

147:4 151:1 153:18 159:5 160:11 161:1 161:9,19 176:6,12 191:9 customer

57:21,22 215:5 239:10 239:10 customers

39:6 cut 113:3

117:18 142:5 cut-and-dry

199:5 cutoffs 111:11 cutting 107:17 CV215:19 cycle65:7

71:18 cycles71:22

72:5 cycling72:2

75:4 Cymbalsky2:4

5:12,12 7:5 8:13 9:2 10:11 19:10 22:7 23:17 33:5,10,19 35:6 37:14 39:9,14 49:18 50:5 64:7,14,18 64:22 65:14 66:17 70:1 70:13,17,21 71:2 72:12 72:20 73:2 73:15,21 74:7,19 78:11 80:5 93:11 95:22 100:7,18 103:14,18 104:1,9 105:1 117:2 118:10 122:19 124:13 125:2 125:14 129:15,18 130:17 133:17 134:3 137:17 140:21 141:4 141:11,14,20 142:1 144:22 145:6,10,16 216:18,21 219:19 237:13,15 D D4:1 damned 91:9,9 damper77:18 dangerous

110:11 Darmington

2:7 5:16,16 29:14 data31:15

41:8 51:22 52:3 65:1 80:14 82:15 86:21 87:1 104:11 106:11,13 113:4,11 114:14 121:9 134:17,19

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 135:4 151:6 159:16 165:4 174:5 176:10 177:11 209:16 210:21 225:9 date9:20

134:15,16 Dated 245:12 dates8:5 DAV233:6 Dave3:9 5:4

20:16 28:18 40:7 44:12 45:4 50:10 50:17 51:14 54:18 68:1 75:14 Dave's49:19

50:5 David53:11 day9:4,10

72:4 75:5 91:7 219:21 243:21 244:1 245:12 days 107:3

190:12 DDC230:18

231:2 232:1 232:7 de-coupled

222:8 de-rated 33:16 dead 52:6 59:1 deadline 160:5 deal 64:9 99:2

110:6 120:12 123:6 128:19 144:11 173:15 175:5 dealing 17:7

81:12 101:7 205:6 dealt 146:8 debate93:20

191:20 deceiving

184:1 decide8:19

136:8 144:1 decided 147:6

167:21 deciding 174:5 decision 47:4

104:4 115:6 138:20 153:15 decisions

47:20 67:21 decline27:16

44:16,20 100:15 declining 48:7 dedicated

76:20 deficiency

32:15 225:21 define 131:13 definitely

27:11 51:7 89:5 115:18 242:13 definitive

65:18 197:10 definitively

68:5 191:18 degradation

215:4 degree81:6

87:7 degrees 69:15

69:17,18 71:7 74:12 109:21 degress 69:12 deLaski 2:8

5:8,8 6:16 8:19 17:13 17:18 21:11 26:10 33:18 37:18 38:4 38:19 39:1,4 51:13 56:16 58:15 134:6 134:7 135:2 135:6,9 141:9,13,16 141:21 142:3 142:17 143:2 144:2,12,16 145:15,19 155:8 160:21 161:13 162:8 162:12,16,21 163:1 164:11 164:20 165:4 166:17 167:3 167:9,14 169:3,12,15 169:19 196:19 197:1 197:12,15 199:10 200:4 234:3,10,12 239:2,14 delta242:2,6,9 delusion 119:2 demand

218:10,14 239:10 density 178:22

179:2 department

135:4 155:17 departments

240:6 depend 173:4 depending 9:5

26:21 38:7 79:4 147:12 151:8 163:5 181:10 194:19 depends50:13

54:19 56:7 68:3 150:8 197:21 199:13 228:17,17 Depot210:10 derated 29:20 derived 85:18 describe 126:3

130:18 181:2 described

154:19 208:13 describing

208:9 descriptions

176:20 177:22 187:16 design 15:16

29:2 37:2 38:5,11,13 38:19 47:1 71:10,12 72:3,5 74:4 92:18 140:11 150:15 153:19 154:6 154:8 159:1 159:2 160:16 172:6 180:21 197:8 203:18 206:4 222:16 236:7 designed

12:10 38:9,9 38:16 80:2 139:14,19 designing

27:6 74:4,8 designs 12:10 37:3 detail 119:6

138:5 176:18 187:18 212:1 detailed 121:9

127:17 129:22 details 31:8,12

32:1 142:21 172:6 178:16 179:12 determined

236:20 Detlef3:6 5:14

129:12 135:13 180:14 189:21 200:4 214:4 229:17 develop

178:10 developed

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176:12 development

15:22 25:8 65:20 66:4 71:18,20,21 71:22 Diane78:11,13 Dick 10:16,16

64:7 80:10 87:20 94:13 96:22 105:22 109:2,9 126:3 130:19 231:22 238:4 Dick's 115:16 dictates 93:2 difference

37:21 89:21

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 98:20,21 102:9,9 109:14 149:15 160:19 162:1 162:2 164:1 202:14,20 211:12 212:4 212:9 218:15 231:5 233:2 233:5 234:18 241:8,12 242:10 differences

14:14 172:8 different33:2

36:18 37:2 74:9,17 79:7 80:2 83:11 94:5 107:15 113:13 131:5 143:19 156:22,22 157:7 168:15 174:17 176:20 178:1 186:22 190:18 191:4 191:8 193:19 198:18 203:15 206:4 211:11,14 224:10,10 226:2 231:11 238:20 240:5 240:13 241:3 241:4,11,20 differently

203:18 difficult

174:15 175:2 difficulty62:15 dig 114:17 digest 188:14 digested 125:8 dimensions

198:7,9 diminish

138:18 direct 156:3 direction

90:18 154:3 154:9 directly 160:2 directory

18:18 19:11 19:12 21:5 21:13 34:15 34:21 35:19 36:10 59:9 64:21 directory's

35:22 disabled

123:17 disabling

107:11 123:21 disagree38:2

108:20 disagreeing

57:16,18 discharge

91:4 215:2 218:4,5 disconnect

108:10 discontinued

19:9 discuss 8:5

81:10 135:22 146:4 170:10 178:16 221:2 discussed 9:2

64:13 82:13 146:3 169:19 169:21 discussing 16:15,17 discussion

14:14 57:9 62:6 80:18 135:21 136:3 144:9 155:7 168:16 172:13 180:8 183:6 186:5 199:22 213:8 discussions

173:5 223:22 display 188:11 disposal 61:1 dissatisfied

240:13 disti 51:18 distinctions

209:17 distribution

32:15,15 43:2,3 51:19 147:1 dividing 115:7 DL-1 146:18

154:20 DL-3 154:20 dock28:12 docket 140:14 DOE5:11,12

19:10 22:7,9 22:17 23:18 25:12 29:21 33:5 35:6 39:10 49:18 93:11 99:9 103:14 220:17 DOE-challen...

90:22 doing 9:4 25:3

28:8 65:19 66:4 70:9,17 88:19 89:4 113:1 116:11 116:11 123:9 125:20 127:16 128:12 130:14 131:21 140:9 169:6 181:21 182:7 198:3 210:17 223:3 237:8,11 dollar's47:10 dollars45:14

201:19 dominant 18:6 Doppel 2:9

4:21 Dopple4:21

22:14,15 63:6,6,12 dot232:14,20

233:9 double 15:22

137:9,13 139:20 217:6 double-check

4:12 doubled 167:8 downstream

128:19 172:12 178:2 178:11 190:20 draft49:7 drained 41:15 dramatic

44:19,20 drastic 131:9 draw59:20 drawing 77:22 drive90:17 driven24:14 driver201:2 driving24:7 drop59:18 60:8 111:2 114:9,18 136:14,16 147:7,14,18 147:22 149:16 150:4 151:3 152:1 152:2,16 153:21 158:12 159:5 203:21 dropped 19:15

82:8 153:6 dropping

15:13 drops69:16

148:12,19 149:14 179:4 dual 136:1,20

139:3,6 146:11,12,14 232:16 duct 136:1,20

137:9,13 139:3,6,20 139:21 142:16 143:1 143:6 154:13 154:14 ducts 136:18

137:3 ductwork

183:21 due68:17

105:17 dumb233:1 durability 12:9

72:1 during 63:4

69:19,20 81:14 128:1 128:8 duty230:9

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 dynamic 149:1 E E2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1,1 125:1,1 e-mail 128:7

157:9 earlier26:11

34:22 35:4,8 36:6 37:21 52:13 74:17 95:19 96:1 137:18 155:14 184:6 192:6 217:4 234:5,13,15 235:3 early75:7

244:1 earn 39:1 easier28:3

56:6 114:19 easiest 117:22 easily42:7

67:15 109:8 210:15 easy 14:20

117:12 echoing 64:3 ECM 186:10 ECMs 186:17 economic

60:17 economies

201:22 economize

228:2,4,8,13 economized

83:22 84:1 85:19,19 94:4 96:10 96:16 103:3 117:14,15,16 124:15 127:21 128:13 131:6 131:10 economizer

82:22 83:6 84:9 87:22 88:8,11 95:7 95:11 98:6 98:16,19 100:13 102:11,20 106:1 107:14 108:17 110:10 111:16 114:10,21 115:22 121:7 121:22 131:19 economizers

76:21 83:16 84:3,14 85:5 85:10,13,14 86:19 87:2,8 87:14 91:15 91:16 93:19 94:19,20,21 95:2 97:14 98:15 101:20 102:13 105:9 105:15 106:5 106:22 107:7 108:10,16 109:7 110:7 114:15 115:14 119:21 121:1 121:10,14,15 121:18 122:4 122:5,11 123:4,11,15 123:19 economizing

125:8,18,22 edge 14:1 edit7:5 educate

149:12 education

150:1 Edward 2:2 effect81:20

82:6 91:17 91:22 94:11 97:13 113:4 125:22 128:17,21 131:9 149:2 150:3,11,19 154:2 164:4 effected 84:3 effects65:3,5

89:16 109:6 efficiencies

59:19 196:11 200:17 241:1 efficiency 11:9

11:11 12:8 28:3 31:1 36:20,21 37:5 38:15 43:2 47:2,12 47:22 49:12 51:11 57:2,4 57:7 60:4,4 61:9,13 65:10 74:10 100:13 145:4 147:7 162:6 167:21,22 168:15 171:16 174:3 174:10 176:20 177:2 189:16 191:1 193:3 194:4 195:4,5,6,8 195:20 199:19 202:5 217:16 223:5 223:13,16,18 225:17 228:10 232:10,12 237:20 238:8 241:11 242:9 efficient 105:6

163:15 164:2 effort47:1

114:2,6,6 Eileen 2:10

4:15 69:3 155:5 236:8 either 19:8

36:13 40:4 50:11 63:22 67:5 68:20 100:5 110:6 111:11 164:9 189:9 202:6 217:8 240:9 242:22 EL 153:3

161:22 162:3 162:15,20 172:3 198:17 198:18 212:3 212:13,14 EL-0 175:19 EL-1 98:20

174:12 EL-2 168:3

185:7 197:18 EL-2.5 169:17

184:17 EL-3 166:21

168:3 172:9 191:18 196:7 196:12 197:18 199:5 EL-3.1 168:10 EL-3.5 168:3 EL-3s 167:8 EL-498:20

168:9,12 186:21 192:9 EL-5 168:12

182:8,12 EL1 212:14,19

218:13 222:17 EL2205:4

222:18 237:21 EL2.5205:3

240:22 EL3202:15

232:11,18 233:4,6 238:17 240:22 EL3s 195:16 EL4213:21

215:12 217:6 218:14 223:22 Electric4:22

15:7 elements

185:18 eliminating

128:12 ELs 188:5 else7:15

10:11 55:18 64:4 106:4 162:13 170:10 173:10 else's 161:20 eluded 105:22 email 8:13

188:1 email's 8:14 Emerson 5:10

178:5 186:20

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 emphasis

87:15 emphasizing

48:18 employee

245:8,9 encounter

75:7 end 8:20,21

16:13,15 21:18 28:5,6 28:7 37:6 59:1 66:4 83:4 107:10 123:8 134:22 135:3 167:11 201:21 203:17 215:4 end's28:2,4 energy41:4,6

44:6 45:10 45:12 48:19 49:3,13 57:2 57:3 61:21 81:20 82:18 88:15 89:6 89:14 90:13 90:16,16 91:18 92:22 94:11 95:2 98:7 99:1,11 104:20 108:10 109:13,19,20 110:1 111:5 111:16,22 113:5 114:3 124:1,4,6,9 127:18 128:3 128:15 131:4 131:21 153:6 176:14 198:12 203:3 218:9,11,18 222:5,6,6,9 231:13 energy's

207:18 energy-use

171:22 enforce

104:22 engineer

149:22 154:7 159:2 engineering

11:7,14,21 12:16 64:10 66:8 115:2,6 115:12 129:13 206:9 engineers

69:11 71:7 159:2 enhancement

179:14,14 enormous

119:5 235:18 enough 8:15

13:17 14:5 14:21 68:12 82:9 83:1 117:12,22 119:1 163:21 212:1 225:5 228:15 243:1 ensure223:19

240:12 entire 110:17

110:19 envelope

182:13 equal 50:6

225:3 equate 156:3 equation 51:9

51:11 90:7 100:21 189:12 equipment

24:19 25:15 26:4 32:20 47:11 56:1 61:10 90:13 92:5,6,8,11 93:9 100:12 104:19 105:18 108:5 108:6 119:17 119:18 123:18 126:7 142:2 147:12 164:1,2 190:1 224:12 226:15 232:7 240:20 241:5 Eric3:2 134:10

220:17 221:16 especially

12:7 59:15 87:10 225:2 essentially

24:21 25:12 52:17 89:2 98:8 148:17 150:15 176:15 186:14 207:3 establish

53:13 established

71:7 estimate71:5

121:7,17 131:8 151:11 222:22 223:7 243:2 estimated

31:19 32:21 224:13 estimates 25:14 235:6 et227:19 evaluate 197:8 evaluated

172:8 evaluating

174:5 190:20 Eventually

103:18 ever39:22

106:9 every 13:6

21:22 81:15 88:10 185:17 191:11 196:6 215:19 everybody7:9

7:11 8:14,18 55:21 125:4 134:2 172:20 173:17 188:2 194:9 238:19 everybody's

132:9 168:14 174:2 175:1 197:8 everyday

35:22 everyone4:3

19:17 125:8 133:6 170:9 216:11 Everyone's

9:16 everything

39:12 52:18 69:4 89:20 90:5,11 162:3,13 179:11 205:15 everything's

162:6 exact92:7 109:12 156:6 169:10 exactly 12:22

20:7 63:18 67:18 101:12 169:11 197:6 209:9 238:14 243:6 exaggeration

165:11 example24:11

65:17 69:10 87:20 107:8 172:10 185:5 185:7 186:21 196:18 197:1 199:12 223:11,18,21 except25:22

132:10 216:8 exchange37:3

54:22 exchanger

13:18 14:1 16:9 29:8 50:12,18 51:5,17 53:22 54:7 54:16 55:5 59:14,15,17 59:21 62:16 69:9,22 71:19,20 74:8 76:7,8,9 76:11 78:22 79:2,20 166:12 177:8 181:3 exchangers

27:7 37:6 51:1,12 62:9 69:14 70:10 71:11,16 78:15 177:9

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 exclusively

105:7 Excuse 181:5

220:12 exercises

134:17 exist53:13

138:1 existing 131:4

141:17,18 147:9 178:12 expand 13:17

13:18 expanded 14:2 expanding

94:20,21 expands 14:6 expect33:9

37:7 177:12 193:2,7 200:13 221:8 expectation

148:21 192:20 expecting

79:14,15 expense201:9 expensive

56:4 59:4 201:4 239:17 experience

51:20 experts 17:8

31:17 explain 127:14 explanation

101:12 explicitly

131:13 extended 70:6

182:13 extensions

161:17 extent78:1 91:22 110:9 151:22 154:5 200:21 external 90:14

152:4,5 153:8 158:13 158:15 190:18,22 extra 162:10 extrapolate

223:14 243:14 extrapolated

243:11 extrapolating

223:9 extrapolation

243:18 extreme

102:14 114:12 extremely31:4 eye7:2 eyes43:18 F F 125:1 fabricator 149:21 face 108:18 185:8,11 facilitator

212:6 facilitators

221:17 fact31:7 51:19 181:16 239:15 factor29:21

30:6,7 49:8 90:8 factoring

234:2 factors73:16 73:22 90:2,2 122:14 215:4 224:5 facts32:18

52:16 factually52:2 Fahrenheit

69:12,15,17 69:18 fail 54:15 failed 114:15 123:16,16 failing 123:18 failure 101:20 102:4,22 106:6 107:16 114:10 115:13,22 118:3,9,14 120:8 121:5 failures 118:15 fair 183:19 fairly 107:13 109:8,18 165:3,17 fall 27:17 76:5 falls 199:15 false 119:2 familiar 140:5 fan 12:13

59:20 60:9 82:2,4,18 89:20 90:16 91:2 98:18 98:22 110:2 110:3,5 131:5 147:16 154:3 166:12 177:8 179:4 179:12 183:1 183:3 184:4 185:20 186:1 191:2 203:3 227:13 228:12 fan-driven

98:11 fancy208:21 fans87:16

89:8,8 111:18 160:17 183:8 184:8 186:17 227:9 230:12 far 19:13 25:8

27:14,14 42:2 48:18 66:7 82:20 110:14 119:11 128:10 178:6 farenheit71:7 fast48:12 favor98:10,13 favors90:15 feedback 12:8 14:16 46:3 173:1 176:11 190:1 225:16 227:8,19,21 233:19 241:9 feel 112:12 feels 9:5 feet 185:11 FEMALE9:8

9:13,18 20:14 42:12 130:15 132:6 132:9,11 133:19,22 140:8,11 149:4,6,11 156:20 165:13 180:5 237:18 fewer 182:16 field 73:12

202:8 figure 14:22 26:3 72:6 88:4 113:17 138:12,15 156:15 198:11 figuring 196:1 files 112:8 final 7:1 finally4:10

82:12 financially

245:11 find 56:20 57:8

91:3 127:1 153:12 160:10 167:4 174:12 findings 124:6 fine26:20,20

93:13 147:11 149:20 165:5 170:22 Fingers221:9 finish 135:20 fire 10:12 11:14 47:11 fired 52:15 firing 79:20 first4:7 7:22

9:4 12:5,5 15:20 16:20 29:19 30:22 44:7 54:4 63:1 64:10 81:2 102:2 109:17 112:16 131:20 144:9 146:11 176:22 185:16 190:16 fit63:16 67:15

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 92:9 236:21 242:19 fits 155:4 five31:20

33:17 204:13 205:4 220:19 229:16 fix7:14 91:7 107:3,15 fixed 89:21

95:6 111:21 flag 161:13 flagging 145:20 flat 11:16 flat-out96:15 flatbed 237:3 flexible 127:11 flights8:20 flipping 83:3 floor 121:14 121:15 122:16 213:10 floorspace

202:11 flow 107:1 148:3,6,19 150:7 flowing 164:3 flue79:14 flying237:15 FMCS4:3,14 focus32:9

85:6 105:21 141:6,15 focused 66:19 focussed 87:2 focussing

91:19 foil 56:8 fold49:2 folks82:14 142:18 144:4 156:13 235:13 follow51:8

71:3 86:15 134:8 162:7 follow-up

26:10 51:14 76:14 following 164:5 foot97:8,10,19 102:17 200:8 footage83:15

83:16 84:13 84:21 85:4,5 85:12,14,19 86:2 93:19 94:3 96:9,13 96:17 footprint 199:8 force 100:16 forced 106:1 forcing 95:10 foregoing

245:5 foreign 230:12 forgot 129:4 formally29:19 formed 69:21 forming 69:13 formulations 161:16 forth 88:13 forum 4:12 6:6 forward 45:6

92:5 134:5 136:8 141:1 176:12 221:11 found 54:12

93:7 108:9 134:12 146:16,21 202:19 226:19 four33:17 101:9,9 184:11 190:16 204:13,22 205:3 211:9 211:12 216:5 216:21 217:2 219:16 four-stage 184:17 211:6 fraction 39:20

85:11 86:1 93:18 110:4 fractions33:2

85:6,7 frame43:11 free91:4 free-standing

53:1 free-style

52:16 frequency 18:2 32:10 71:5 fresh 29:10 frictional 148:22 fringe47:19

242:16 front 143:14 175:1 180:22 181:1 full 77:4 127:9 160:5 184:18 185:2 223:5 225:21 243:1 243:2 full-on 148:3 Fully 167:14 function 49:11

82:10 150:4 150:10 191:13,13 funny 19:21 furnace 10:19 11:5 30:14 38:6 48:6 49:21,22 52:22 54:1,5 54:6 80:3 furnaces 8:1 11:15 14:15 23:20 41:13 43:14 52:11 52:15,22 53:2 57:5 64:5 78:18 78:19 further29:14 107:21 129:17,22 146:16 155:17 168:20 169:16 245:7 future 10:4

67:4 122:9 G G 4:1 galvanized

72:8 game 166:14 gas 11:14 15:6

18:2 27:21 28:1,4,5 30:20 31:20 36:18,22 37:3,4,5 39:20,21 41:13 44:2 44:10 45:2 45:20,21 46:11 47:15 48:9,14 50:4 52:16,17 53:2,6,16,18 53:19 59:22 60:14 73:16 74:13 78:15 78:22 79:1,9 79:14,20 gas-fired

32:20 gave88:10

112:13 gears 107:9 gelling 126:7 general 144:9

144:17 159:3 201:3,13 220:6 228:3 generalization

201:11 generally

163:15 generate

88:21 generated

88:14 generation

106:5,19 generic27:20 gentleman

23:13 getting4:5

10:7 13:1 16:22 44:6 49:13 77:20 89:18 96:14 105:6,7 116:15 150:11 173:6 177:12 183:19 192:16 209:16 213:9 213:19 222:2 give 10:22

44:4 89:17

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 111:2 128:4 134:12,16 146:4 157:19 160:1 174:8 188:1 201:3 201:15 221:5 given 15:2

38:14 41:17 104:11 116:10 148:5 155:6 193:2 209:11 gives6:5

99:20 171:13 190:17 giving 111:11

169:8 glad 15:10 glass53:13 go4:9 8:8 9:16

11:8,17 15:5 17:12 29:2 31:7 33:7 34:7,11,11 36:22 41:7 42:4 44:14 51:22 52:3,4 59:13,16 61:18 62:13 62:22 64:8 69:15 72:2,9 72:10,11 80:8 88:3 91:8 93:13 94:16 96:5 97:9 98:1 106:14 107:14 110:21 111:3 111:17 115:4 115:16,17 120:2,9,12 137:16 141:1 148:11 154:13,17 170:18 177:20 180:14 183:15 184:10 185:5 188:21 192:14 195:7 196:12,12 197:3 199:12 200:19,20 201:20,20 202:17 203:11 204:21 214:11 228:12 235:9 237:1,2 goal 63:14

173:18 God 73:19

125:12,16 goes 14:15

27:11 70:7 93:8 102:7,8 128:10 152:13 165:11 194:11 217:2 going 8:11,16

8:22 10:9 12:1 13:9 15:3 17:12 17:21 20:9 20:19,20 26:19 29:2 30:13,15 31:6 32:19 34:7 36:9 37:4,9,20 39:1,2 40:12 40:19,22 41:21 42:7 45:1,6,18 47:8,21 48:21 49:1,3 50:8,14 56:3 58:21 59:14 59:17,18,20 62:8,18 63:3 64:22 67:1,9 68:8 69:20 70:14 71:8 71:12 72:2,9 72:11 74:2 75:7 78:9 81:11 87:9 87:18 89:5,6 89:8,10,17 92:5,6 97:15 98:3 103:8 103:18,19,20 104:17 106:8 107:18 109:6 111:7 114:7 114:7,20 115:11,16,17 117:1,22 118:22,22 119:4,8,9,13 120:9 122:10 122:20,21,22 123:19 125:2 126:8 128:16 130:18 131:17 134:3 135:14 144:19 152:22 153:2 153:3,5 154:4,8 158:2 161:21 162:7 168:11 170:18 173:21 176:5 182:15,15,17 184:3,4,4,9 186:8,15 192:9,11 194:5,8,13 195:1,15,17 195:19 196:12 197:9 197:10 203:10,17 204:2 206:10 207:10 208:6 208:21 209:2 209:4 211:11 212:6 214:5 214:5 215:3 215:6,22 218:15 219:19 221:13 235:22 236:20 238:8 240:1 244:1 gone7:20

49:10 81:8 88:12 95:3 106:9 193:15 219:10 good4:2 9:12

9:14 11:3,21 22:18 38:20 39:17 46:10 70:21 80:9 95:9 105:10 108:21 119:7 126:8 150:9 153:4 154:6 156:10 157:21 163:18 165:3 180:17 203:7 213:14 Goodman 5:6

68:15 137:8 139:8 got9:16 11:21

12:8 13:20 14:16 50:21 55:4,10 59:16 60:9 85:10 94:4 97:1 107:3 108:14 122:21 123:12 126:17,19 132:13 139:21 151:6 151:13 152:11 154:12,12,13 154:14 162:19 175:22 186:19 187:22 201:21,21 203:14 204:9 205:3,4,19 205:20 206:5 209:22 212:14 214:1 231:19 232:6 238:20 240:1 240:5,6 243:19 gotten 69:4 grade65:16,22

66:2 grades 13:1 graph 43:16 grappling

13:11 great 15:1 57:6

110:6 129:7 135:9 138:9 198:1 237:4 greater84:22

193:3 green 99:15,17

199:7

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 Greg 2:18 5:13

41:7 43:12 44:12 48:21 62:3 88:12 105:12 109:4 110:20 121:11 131:17 182:15 Greg's 88:18

93:12 grey233:8 ground 6:9,10

6:13 7:7,13 7:15 group 1:5 8:15

9:5 12:4 36:1 46:3 63:5 113:14 132:2 136:8 145:22 155:6 156:8 156:11 160:2 169:6,22 170:1 188:2 220:19 grouping

81:18 grow57:6

166:4 growing 73:17 growth 192:4 guess 11:19

20:11 25:6 36:8 37:10 41:22 46:13 52:1 61:10 88:6 97:17 103:1 108:4 114:16 115:2 115:20 116:3 116:3 118:12 131:20 136:9 136:21 139:22 142:3 142:14 143:22 152:14,15 153:11 156:16 164:12 165:6 180:16 197:10 205:12 212:8 214:14 225:6 239:2 243:10 guessing 78:6 guesstimating

156:5 guidance

146:4 214:12 guidances

217:17 guy 148:8

149:9,12 239:22 guys 13:6 17:3

36:5 57:12 63:22 90:6 94:22 97:18 120:1 128:8 156:1 158:14 163:2 204:5 237:13 H half 18:20

21:10 70:14 85:21 171:17 171:18,18 188:4 192:8 193:20 194:1 194:4,12 200:20 202:4 222:17,19 223:12 224:1 halfway 115:8 hand 78:12

129:11 173:12 handle 12:11

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24:19 26:5 51:16 107:13 107:19 234:14 happens48:2

54:20 65:12 207:1,4 happy 111:3

240:14 hard 56:13

67:3 201:5,6 207:7 hardly52:11 Harris 61:6 Harvey2:19

5:2 29:16 39:16 42:13 42:19 43:12 47:7 48:18 48:22 49:6 52:4 57:14 57:14 60:18 74:22 76:2,6 105:20 106:7 106:20 116:20 130:13 132:18 136:19 160:8 166:8 200:11 201:2 224:7 225:11 235:17 240:10 has6:2 7:7

21:17,20 28:7 30:3 31:11 48:14 50:13 57:19 58:17 72:1 72:22 75:2 78:12 79:11 81:4,20 82:10,17 84:12,13 85:13 86:18 91:17 94:2 94:11 95:8 103:7 105:11 105:22 106:1 106:4,4,9 109:2,4 110:6 111:16 113:1,5 115:9 123:2 133:6 136:2 158:6 166:11 166:12 172:4 173:14 177:6 177:9 183:10 188:3 189:20 202:16 211:16 hasn't57:20

57:21 58:22 hat26:14 haven't62:21

65:18 81:12 106:18 127:11 139:3 146:7 175:13 187:11,21 191:17 193:9 193:14 having 13:18

16:3 24:20 25:16 46:11 50:19 58:19 81:15 87:12 92:1 183:20 202:10 he'll 182:16

240:2,8 head 103:21

196:22 207:10 235:9 headed 199:18 hear39:22

46:10 58:15 200:5 216:11 220:1 heard 29:17

30:2 41:14 66:22 74:17 144:22 161:2 217:15 234:5 234:15 hearing 35:14

38:4,5 67:12 116:21 135:15 216:18,21 heat 13:18,22

16:9 27:7 29:8 37:3,4,5 37:6 38:13 38:14,15 50:11,18 51:1,5,12,17 53:22 54:7 54:16 55:5 59:13,15,17 59:21 62:9 62:15 69:9 69:13,21 70:10 71:11 71:16,19,20 74:8 76:7,8,9 76:10 78:15 78:22 79:2 79:20 111:5

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 177:7,9 216:16 heated 53:14 heater 166:11 heaters41:1 heating 18:7

77:17 82:2 87:11 206:5 240:16 heats37:3 heavily210:6

210:7 heavy152:15

219:21 230:9 241:21 242:8 243:4 heighth

179:13 helicopter

237:16 helix 179:13 help27:1

97:12,13 134:16 138:18 206:15 221:20 235:14,16 helped 15:10 helpful 13:22

27:2 53:11 71:4 102:1 238:21 helps 155:21 her7:8,11

78:12 132:13 216:11 here4:5,6 6:2

7:10,12,20 10:5,16,16 16:14 23:16 34:6 43:22 44:16 46:19 49:21 56:11 56:18,22 60:19 68:5 70:9 71:6,19 73:22 78:14 80:10 85:7 93:14,18 96:13,18 98:2 101:7 103:16 104:12 105:19 106:17 108:4 111:15 112:11 113:9 116:14,15 117:5,9 119:2 121:6 121:20 122:4 124:15 125:3 126:2,9 130:19 132:6 134:7,10 135:20 137:19 141:1 141:22 145:22 148:21 158:3 158:22 163:13 166:19 168:13 172:19 173:21 174:19 176:19 177:6 177:11,13 178:3,16 183:8 188:22 190:15 192:8 193:10 200:6 204:9,22 206:15,16 212:7,18 213:16 218:1 219:15 220:8 220:9 228:15 233:13,19 234:7,12 241:3 here's 8:4

97:21 hey38:20 Hi 135:13 high 18:4,5,5

38:15,18 72:8 82:3 96:16 115:16 127:20 145:5 195:8 higher28:5

37:4 38:15 41:18 61:15 69:8 71:13 73:17 74:12 74:14 76:12 82:16 89:16 89:17 91:3,6 98:13 101:22 107:22 120:8 120:12 143:6 145:11 147:8 151:13,19 152:17 153:1 153:3 155:21 162:3,6,15 166:4 174:14 174:15 177:2 190:22 193:3 195:20 223:17,18 238:8 higher-capa...

226:6 higher-powe...

143:8 Hilbrand 7:10 historical 44:1

219:7 historically 30:4,5 hit 167:2 hitting 16:12

103:16 Hoffman 2:10

4:15,15 7:4 20:7 69:3 113:14 120:22 121:4 122:6,8 124:2,8,14 129:1 144:10 144:11,14,21 145:8 148:10 155:5,5 156:10 157:3 157:13,21 158:8 160:1 160:4 168:16 169:22 170:6 170:14,19 171:1,6,9,11 181:5 212:5 213:7,13 216:11 219:22 220:4 220:9,12,15 221:16 222:1 229:9 234:8 234:11 235:13 236:8 236:8 243:22 hold 170:9

228:16 home54:5

210:10 honest214:18 honestly52:2

104:1 honesty51:21 hook47:14 hoopla8:16 Hootman 2:11 4:18,18 8:11 10:4,7 15:19 15:19 17:6 17:11,20 18:4,22 20:4 21:17 22:4 22:19 23:20 25:5,17,21 26:6 27:3 28:10,17 30:9 33:11 33:21 34:3 35:18 38:2 39:3,6,11 40:1,12,18 40:21 47:13 47:16 48:10 48:16 50:16 54:17 55:9 56:7 57:16 59:2 61:2 63:18 64:16 65:3,12,19 66:10,16,21 67:1,18 68:7 68:21 71:17 72:15,18,22 73:7,11,13 73:19 74:6 75:17 77:6 77:14 125:12 125:16 132:15 141:2 145:4 151:15 156:18 165:21 166:2 167:11 168:6 173:18 187:13 193:9 193:22 195:3 196:10,21 197:5,19 205:10 206:22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 207:19 210:6 210:10 215:13 216:10,13,19 229:22 232:2 235:8 236:11 237:1,8,11 237:17 238:1 238:4,7,14 238:17 239:12 240:18 241:17 242:12,15 243:6,12,16 243:19 hope43:16

133:4,5 240:13 hopefully

30:17 63:3 95:5,6 119:10 134:22 135:22 177:19 horse52:6 hot79:2,16 hotspots

68:19 69:1 hour 14:12

110:5 hourly 110:13 hours 111:20

128:1 hoursepower

186:12,15 however90:16

143:5 HRI 5:1 170:21 Huang2:12

179:18 181:4 181:7,7,15 182:17 185:14 huge 15:12

56:10 111:7 111:20 112:13 hundred

197:16 Hunt2:13 4:19

4:19 15:6,6 17:2,7 188:16 228:1 228:1,14,19 hurts 182:14 hypothesis

239:19 hypothesize

21:10I I'd 17:11 60:20

77:15 86:5 94:14 115:5 116:16 136:19 142:3 144:2 149:13 150:13 159:7 169:1 I'll 11:4 17:8

94:16 104:16 106:20 113:13 126:3 129:11 135:11,20 138:18 139:9 156:5,16 157:9,18 159:18 172:19 175:6 214:18 221:11 235:9 IDC42:5 86:18 idea23:18

44:4 61:17 99:20 112:20 113:8 114:13 131:22 156:18 ideal 158:12 identified

172:15 IEER 173:9

174:13,16 188:8 189:8 189:8,11,14 190:17 191:13 192:12,17 202:14,20 203:6 205:18 206:13 211:8 213:16,18 214:1 223:12 233:7 IEER-rated

228:9 IEERs223:5 IER 90:7,21 ignoring

108:11 229:6 imagine

168:21 imaging 49:20 imbedded

102:21 103:1 IMC42:4 imitation

114:20 impact 15:13

59:18 82:17 103:7 111:7 126:14 147:5 198:11 228:11,13 impacted

32:19 impactors

92:9,19 impacts 111:16,17 implement

198:10 implemented

12:20 13:6 146:5 implications

221:4 implied 32:10 important

31:18 32:2 44:5 80:8 105:2 159:6 166:4 207:14 207:15 220:20 impression

199:3 improve47:11 improved

166:11,12 improvement

123:3 improvements

105:17 119:17 in-depth

133:10 inaudible6:12

7:1,2,12 8:8 8:9 9:22 10:13 11:2,6 11:8,10,12 11:15,16,20 12:6,12 13:12 14:1,7 14:8,8 15:5 16:21 17:5 17:10 19:13 20:2 21:2,7 23:22 24:6 25:12 26:4 26:17 27:22 28:9 29:5 30:14,19 31:3,8,10,12 31:15,20 32:2,19 33:1 33:9 35:1,13 37:22 38:6 39:18 40:16 42:15,17,22 43:5,9,14,19 44:1,7,8,19 45:8,10,16 46:20 48:4,6 48:9 49:2,8,8 49:22 50:12 50:21 51:3 52:15 53:2 53:13,15 54:6 55:17 55:21 56:1 56:11,17,21 59:8 60:6,12 60:14,22 61:4,7 63:2 64:20 65:7 66:7 67:10 67:12,21 68:6,13,19 73:18 74:1 74:21 77:21 77:22 79:11 80:3,21 81:2 81:3,6,8,22 82:7,9,16,19 82:22 83:7 86:9,11,13 86:15,15,16 86:17,19,20 87:14,16,21 88:5 89:3,20 90:11 91:2,5 91:18 92:14 93:6 94:17 95:12,17 96:3,20

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 97:15,21 98:14,15,16 98:18 99:6,8 100:2,11,21 100:22 102:7 102:11,16 104:7,8,21 105:12 106:3 106:9,17 107:8 108:5 108:11,13,18 109:2,21,21 111:19 112:13,18 113:1 116:4 116:13 118:13 119:14,19 121:4,6 122:20 123:10,12 124:2 126:19 126:21 127:19 129:10,10 131:18,19 132:6 133:1 137:5,6 140:18 143:19 145:3 145:13 146:6 146:19,21 147:6,9,20 148:13 154:11,16 155:1 156:3 159:8 164:15 165:18,19 167:19 168:5 169:9,11,18 173:7,8,8,10 173:18 175:3 175:19,22 176:17,22 177:3,5,10 177:14,22 178:7,9,11 178:21 179:19,21 180:11,12,17 180:20 181:4 181:8,9,18 181:19 182:3 182:4 183:15 183:20 184:22 185:2 185:8,17 187:1,2,20 188:11,15 189:3,7,10 189:14,19 190:5,14,16 190:21 191:3 191:5,16 194:21 195:1 195:2,6 199:1,21 200:2,8 201:3,18 202:11,18,21 203:6,11,18 204:6,15,18 205:2,8,16 206:7,9,19 207:22 208:1 208:5,19,20 209:1 211:9 211:18,20 212:6,10,19 213:20 214:19,20 217:15,19,21 218:6,12,18 219:3 220:1 220:2,6,10 220:13 221:3 221:9,12,14 221:21 224:9 224:20 225:8 225:13 226:22 227:1 227:13,19 229:1 230:4 230:9,13 231:9 232:7 232:19 234:3 234:13 235:11,19 236:1 238:3 238:9,19 239:8,21 240:6,7,16 241:6,17,18 241:19 242:6 243:1,15 incapable

168:20 incentive

166:20 incentives

167:4 inch 185:8 inches 151:7

151:12 152:9 156:4 incident26:18 inclined 202:8 include9:15

12:11 238:3 included 7:8

137:10 includes 92:19

105:15 232:20 including

12:13,17 123:4 140:15 162:4 173:21 incorrectly

214:21 increase 11:10

24:11 47:1 49:2 51:11 57:22 61:17 62:19 67:8 67:11 94:3 128:3 192:17 201:16 224:2 236:5 increased

85:13 89:6 increases 63:8

68:8 82:18 98:6 191:2 increasing

51:10 85:11 incremental

61:16 222:13 222:22 243:2 increments

150:16 independent

44:22 independently

50:1 indicate99:14 indicated

83:17 indicates 85:8

99:10 101:14 indicating

201:18 indication

84:2 114:14 indications

136:6 indifferent

14:17 individual

173:4 individually

223:1 indoor33:3

34:3 39:19 39:20 41:5 46:15 53:1 53:15,18 82:4 177:9 180:19,20 185:20 186:3 indoors31:21

33:13 40:4 inducer 12:13 induction

186:7,8 industrial

226:7 241:21 industry90:22

169:1 170:1 170:9 223:20 inevitable76:7 informal 23:1 information

17:4,6 31:14 31:16 35:20 84:20 97:4 112:10 119:4 128:21 129:9 131:8,12 137:5,7 138:8,16,18 138:20 152:9 152:11 155:13 156:12 157:11,19 173:1 177:1 177:7,9 178:10 179:20 180:17 188:13 215:15 225:5 225:17 informed

173:2 informing

172:19 Ingersoll 5:21 inherent76:16

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 initial 9:3

129:15 195:11 199:3 injecting 60:21 inlet29:8

150:9 151:8 163:18 inlet/outlet

150:5 input 17:3

167:19 168:13 174:8 inquired

146:22 inside40:13

49:22 54:15 79:3,16 118:3 install 31:13 installation

28:21 29:4 31:8,9,10,11 31:19 32:6,7 32:20 58:3,4 installations

13:8 33:3 137:1 installed

217:16 installing

26:21 instance

169:17,18 177:3 213:21 instances

74:13 166:22 instead 24:19

30:1 99:1 107:9 110:22 118:4 124:2 240:3 insulation

26:17 105:13 insurance 137:5 integrated

52:18 53:2 intend 137:1 intent 174:1 interested

149:13 180:10 245:11 Interesting

199:10 interface

226:21 227:2 230:19,19 intermittent

78:6,8 intermixed

112:2 intermixing

111:15 internal

179:12,14 180:11 181:15 internally

77:19 International

5:5 interpellating

223:9 interpolation

189:9 interpretatio...

221:1 interview

63:22 interviews

127:18 into 13:1 20:21

27:11 29:13 41:15 42:3 52:18 53:2 58:10,10 69:8,12 71:8 83:8 99:8,11 99:11 100:17 104:18,20 114:17 134:4 135:16,18 137:20 140:15 145:20 153:13 172:12,22 173:6 176:19 177:12 185:3 187:17,21 189:18 206:1 211:1 217:21 222:3 226:1 226:8 227:5 236:21 237:2 238:7 introduce

20:14 135:20 introduced

136:4 introduces

146:2 introducing

61:19 invest 104:18 investigate

155:18 investigating

198:6 investigation

193:18 195:11 investment

46:20 47:11 involve 132:4 involved42:1

128:15 156:14 161:8 IOU 4:20 iPad 58:20 isn't46:16 54:9 137:9 152:15 194:8 231:22 242:1 isolate 105:18

127:22 issue7:14

13:9,14 15:9 15:12,14 19:18,18 20:5,12,22 20:22 21:1,4 21:6 22:14 22:16 26:14 28:4 42:11 42:20 46:15 46:16,17 59:12 63:1,1 63:21 69:7 70:18 75:12 81:21 83:6 86:1,5 93:18 99:5 104:2 106:16,21 108:18 110:10 125:6 125:8,22 126:12 128:1 131:15 136:1 136:10 137:14 143:6 144:13,14 145:18 147:4 152:12,19 161:1 167:20 194:7 241:3 243:9 issues 11:5

46:19 56:18 64:9 66:17 69:2 71:8 73:10 76:12 104:6 128:20 129:13 146:3 146:7 163:14 175:5 204:18 226:1 it'd 137:22 items54:15 Ivanovich

160:12 J jack50:21 JACKOBS

78:18 Jakobs 78:12

78:14 James2:3

219:18 221:22 239:2 Jeff61:6 Jill 2:11 4:18

8:21 15:19 25:5 28:22 30:8 33:14 40:21 57:17 65:4 132:10 151:16 155:14 156:17,18 166:9 235:14 236:9 237:15 242:7 Jill's 60:21 Jim 201:18 Joaquin 17:20

18:1 John 2:4 5:12

10:15 19:10 20:11 22:7 23:17 33:5 35:6,12 49:18 51:8 64:11 73:15 93:11 101:1 103:14 104:17 106:8 119:15

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 137:14 join 19:17 joke 125:13 Jonathan 21:2 joule 16:19 17:22 judgment 169:8 jump49:17

61:15 68:10 69:1 194:20 195:2,17 197:17,18 199:7,12 243:4 jumped217:21 jumps 192:21 195:5 June7:10

206:10 justifications 122:2 justify97:11 K Karen 2:16 6:2

36:2 63:20 108:19 168:22 170:3 170:14 Katie2:6 5:19

105:4 109:15 111:14 112:5 113:2,15 116:4 123:4 126:3 127:13 127:15 131:1 Katie's 130:18 keep60:3

67:13 72:20 87:4 94:20 94:21 100:11 103:15 104:2 104:3 106:8 106:10 108:11,15 112:20 121:20 123:14 185:1 203:14 211:10 221:10 keeps28:8 key 12:7,20

31:2 46:19 47:20 191:12 199:2 kick8:3 kicks 104:10 kid 132:17 kidding 243:18 kind 12:20

13:11 16:8 16:19,21,22 17:8 18:9 27:5 36:12 47:3 54:10 55:17 75:19 76:4 78:2,6 87:14 90:15 94:4 97:5 98:20 102:1 102:17 111:15 115:13 121:8 121:16 127:22 128:20 131:7 131:14 138:5 146:21 157:10 175:1 182:8 183:2 183:9 184:1 194:2,9,10 194:15 198:19 199:1 201:17 202:3 208:8,12,13 211:3,8 212:6 217:21 218:8 kinds 138:16 KM 155:22 knew 101:12 know6:8 7:19

8:6,20 15:18 16:19,22 17:11 23:13 23:21 24:3 29:1 33:12 34:12 35:20 35:21 53:14 54:5 56:20 57:7 58:8 62:5,14,19 65:21,21 66:3 68:5,22 70:5,8,20,22 71:12,14 72:2,7 73:22 74:10 75:13 77:3,7,14 79:5,22 80:12,14 81:4,8,16 83:3 84:5 87:5,12,15 87:19 88:6 88:12,13,14 88:18,18 89:20 90:2,6 91:5,7,14 92:1 93:6,16 94:5,7,16,20 95:2,10,20 96:19 97:3 98:17,18,19 99:4,6,14 100:18 101:8 101:9,15,19 102:1,2 103:6,6,10 103:15 104:1 104:13,20 105:5 107:6 107:19 108:4 108:12 109:12 110:9 110:17,21 111:10 112:7 112:20 113:2 113:7,11,20 114:5,12 115:2,5,10 115:12,20,21 116:1,2,16 117:4,8,10 117:18,21 118:5,5,15 119:1,10,16 122:2,10,15 126:2,6 127:1 128:1 128:17 131:12 134:10 136:2 136:4,7,9 137:5,19 138:2,2,6 139:6 140:17 142:5 143:7 144:17 145:10 146:8 148:17 150:10 153:11,14 155:10,11 158:20 164:7 164:13,18 167:18,22 168:11 169:13,16 173:14 175:18 176:18 178:15 179:16 180:17,19 196:18,21 198:18,20 201:13 210:13,14 213:19 214:19 215:11,14 219:11 222:3 229:13 243:19 knowing 28:14 knows 7:9,11

172:21 242:10 Kylie245:3,17 L lab22:5

109:16 labor50:19 lacking 165:4 land 16:18 large91:22

110:1 165:17 171:18 192:1 192:1 199:8 201:11 207:13 208:11,11 241:15 larger 14:14

14:16 15:2 18:9 56:18 59:21 95:3 137:1 162:5 163:16 194:4 200:22 207:18 226:4 last6:20 7:21

8:2,7 14:10 15:1 19:16 21:9 32:8

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 34:17 54:4 80:16 81:11 82:13,22 83:8,16,21 84:15 85:17 91:20 92:3 101:21 113:12 129:21 134:8 146:3 149:19 150:22 151:14 161:2 169:5,7,20 170:14 171:14 176:16 188:10 204:14 late80:7 later82:17

105:4 127:4 167:18 226:9 latest35:19,21

36:3 232:9 Laughter

21:16 30:12 78:17 100:6 100:9 103:22 116:8 125:11 130:20,22 132:10,12 149:10 153:16 164:16 167:13,15 219:12 launch 135:16 Lawrence

109:16 layering54:20 LBNL5:13,18

5:19 LCC30:22 LDL 161:12,14 LDNL 101:2 leads 136:22 lean 155:20 least 16:16

19:14 24:7 50:16 66:11 84:4 85:7,9 85:21 112:21 116:2 119:12 120:13 143:13 157:22 165:12 172:5 210:22 216:1 219:16 221:1 239:6 leaves28:12 leaving43:1 left4:17 125:6

170:14 legal 134:9

220:6,19 length 67:16

68:7,11 Lennox5:4

20:17 28:19 40:8 44:13 45:5 50:10 68:2 75:15 less25:20

27:14 28:8 36:21 42:8 57:11 60:17 82:1 108:5 139:11,22 143:9 147:18 148:1,20 163:17 179:5 184:15 206:17 207:13 lesser 148:19 level 26:2 31:5

32:22 42:8 43:6 49:12 61:15 65:10 89:17 92:15 147:8 162:6 174:10,12,16 198:17,18 213:10,17 217:17 223:13,15 225:15 226:14 228:10 231:15,17 232:17,18 233:7,18 levels 11:16

31:1 45:20 46:1 60:5 98:14 153:3 161:22 162:3 162:15 167:2 167:21,22 168:15,20 170:22 171:3 171:16 174:3 174:14 176:20 177:2 189:16 191:1 195:13 199:20 212:3 212:13 223:5 223:7,16,18 228:4 231:9 232:11,12 liability58:7

206:1 lies 120:14

194:10 lieu 68:10 life51:16

54:21 167:12 lift50:21 55:4

55:8,12,13 light242:8 243:4 like4:7 12:22

17:11 24:9 24:13,17 25:1 43:19 45:18 46:17 47:20 48:5 49:9 54:3,3,5 54:10 56:4 58:1,19 60:20 65:2,9 66:10 67:18 78:2 87:6 89:7,15 94:14 95:1,8 95:12,13 97:20 99:7 100:3 104:21 105:12 106:3 111:1 112:12 114:18 115:4 116:16 118:6 120:13,18 126:2 129:3 129:16 130:13 133:10 136:19 141:4 144:2 145:1 150:13 152:19 154:10 155:2 159:7 169:1 170:4 173:9 174:17 177:14 182:9 184:7,16,17 186:1 187:1 193:14,22 195:3,16,19 195:22 196:6 198:16 199:2 199:14,18 201:12 206:8 206:19 207:13 208:10,13,15 210:2,17 211:1,15 217:17 218:14 221:3 238:11 240:15 242:14 likely68:7,9

69:21 132:4 179:5 184:15 limit28:7 limited 14:6

46:6 216:8 limits 193:19 line67:8 93:22

171:16 190:15 193:1 193:1,15 197:8 217:4 232:10 233:8 linear49:10

118:20,22 linearly223:8

243:11,12 list7:6 87:3,4

168:14 listed 217:22 literally21:17

68:9 literature

19:22 66:6 178:10 180:1 205:13 216:7 225:6 little7:22 9:3

14:19 25:14 33:2 42:15 42:16,16 43:10 45:11 48:20 49:16 53:7 61:9,17

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 64:8 75:1 85:16 87:20 90:18 96:3 112:21 117:5 132:8 137:18 151:20 165:7 196:1 200:5 202:20 203:16 207:7 207:8 212:7 222:1 228:12 242:11 lived 100:3 lives207:21 load 60:11

81:13,14,16 81:19,22 84:1,4,6 87:7 87:9 88:22 91:1,16 92:11 94:8 97:19 110:2 110:3,10,21 111:1,6,12 111:19 112:6 112:9,17 113:3,22,22 114:1,8 117:18 122:14 128:1 131:21 132:1 204:2,2 242:18 loading 189:7

189:13 loads83:1,6

87:6,13 90:1 90:3,5 92:1,7 92:8 103:3,5 109:22 110:13 111:9 112:14 114:18,19 116:5 122:16 128:13 local 9:6 locality32:9 location 31:19 long2:12 19:4

36:7 54:4 55:6 68:12 73:2 75:10 75:13,18 76:3 80:9 139:16 141:8 154:13 170:2 179:16 181:7 185:13,14 long-burn 78:1 longer62:9,13

62:15 63:7 66:14 71:21 139:4 longstanding

220:22 longterm 57:4 look 18:17

42:8 51:22 52:3,7 56:21 57:2,3 59:8 62:20,21 66:5 67:14 81:17 82:21 85:14 87:5 87:10 88:3 88:21 90:1 91:1 94:16 94:22 98:1 101:19 106:21 109:5 109:20 113:10,11 115:17 119:12 120:16 145:20 146:20 153:4 167:7 172:11 174:3,10 177:14 188:1 192:3 198:9 198:15 199:1 199:7 202:13 203:6 204:12 204:16,22 205:3,4 217:11 226:12 235:9 236:12,13 242:22 looked 13:17

14:10 19:6 35:2,4 63:2 86:21 88:7,9 106:4,18 112:17 146:16 187:21 188:6 202:2 207:7 228:5 236:19 looking 12:17

19:22 21:7,7 30:21 36:12 46:2 47:18 47:19 57:14 83:17 84:4 84:14,16,22 85:7 93:21 96:18 110:17 112:9 115:21 120:1 127:21 131:21 139:18 158:11 176:3 184:12,18 187:18 191:8 192:18 194:15 198:18 199:4 203:8 234:18 240:4 looks32:14 49:9 133:10 182:8 198:16 211:1 loom 72:8 Lord 2:14

10:16,21 42:3 60:6 86:7,12 88:9 89:5,19 90:20 94:13 94:13 95:15 95:18 97:5,9 97:18 98:9 98:15 99:22 100:10,16 104:16 105:10 106:7 106:20 108:8 108:14 113:10 119:15 120:15,20 121:21 122:7 122:9 124:1 124:4 126:5 126:15 127:1 127:5,8 129:5 130:21 131:16 136:11 143:9 143:12,16 154:11,16,22 155:4 165:6 loss 140:15

148:22 149:1 lot 11:21 12:8

13:20 27:16 35:8 36:11 36:11,20 49:13 55:3 61:7,11 70:5 71:21 72:5 81:7 87:15 89:9 91:10 105:16 107:9 107:14,16 108:9 111:18 112:9,17 115:1 116:5 119:16 121:18 124:6 143:17 151:1 154:12 158:20 166:5 166:6,19 175:15 177:11 182:9 188:13 201:4 203:4,16 208:6 210:2 210:8 211:4 212:10 214:9 215:4 218:7 221:4 lots61:13 louder200:5

222:1 Louis2:21 5:3

9:9 18:8,15 25:6 53:21 61:5 107:5 113:16 117:8 126:1 129:1 129:2 130:2 150:20 192:13 202:22 love 132:15 low 16:15 31:5

38:14 81:13 81:13,22 82:4,8 87:4 87:13,13,15 87:16 88:15 88:17,22 90:1,3,5 91:1 91:4,16 92:1 94:15 95:11

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 103:5 107:1 107:1,21 109:22 110:9 111:19,20 112:7,7,14 112:18 114:18,18 115:15,19 116:6 127:19 128:2,13 139:11,22 151:21 152:9 159:1,3 195:4 196:11 204:2 213:1 low-end 27:5 low-load 90:4

111:17 low-speed

98:17 Lowe's 210:10 lower 16:10,13

24:20 26:2 28:4,6,7 29:8 29:12 36:21 37:4,5 60:13 147:17,22 152:20 154:9 189:5 199:19 201:21 204:5 233:22 lower-capac...

226:4 lumped 241:22 lunch 124:10

124:21 125:5 125:7,9 220:11,14,16 LV&L202:10 M machines 90:4

90:5 made25:13 27:15 59:5 61:10 78:20 79:22 110:21 131:9 171:20 190:17 213:15 231:4 magnitude

136:20 magnitudes

159:4 main 236:7 maintain 12:9

179:3 maintained

87:22 105:14 maintenance

42:16 major225:3

230:11 majority44:18

207:4 make-up76:15 makes20:1

33:21 37:19 90:3 91:1 102:8,9 112:1 151:1 making 12:2

68:12 81:3 85:6 104:19 174:6 196:8 206:1 MALE6:4,12

6:14 9:11,15 9:21,22 10:1 10:6,19 11:2 17:16 18:2,6 18:20 19:1,3 19:13,15,21 20:6 21:2,14 21:20 22:6 22:11,21 23:5,7,9,10 23:16,21 24:2 34:1,5 34:15 35:10 35:12,14,16 36:4 37:9,16 39:12,22 40:5,15,17 41:7 42:1,6 42:19 43:18 46:9 47:14 49:4,11 50:3 52:21 63:10 63:14 67:9 74:16,20 76:14 77:1,5 77:9,15 100:15 103:8 104:8 106:14 108:13 116:17 130:6 132:8,13 133:1,8,21 135:11 138:9 138:21 140:5 140:9,19 142:7,11 143:14,20,22 144:6 149:5 149:7 156:22 157:7 158:2 159:12 160:3 160:13 161:11,15 164:12,15 165:12 175:11,13,22 179:22 180:2 180:14,22 181:18 182:3 182:5,14 183:4,12 184:5,15 185:1,20 186:11,18 187:3,6,10 197:7,14,17 197:21 198:1 198:3,6 199:17 201:2 201:8,10,12 201:15,17 203:14 204:4 204:12 205:2 205:8,11,14 205:19 206:14,18 207:11,16,20 208:18 209:2 209:13,19,22 210:7,19 211:3,8,21 212:8,17 213:3 214:18 215:3,8,11 215:14,18,20 215:22 216:4 217:1,7 218:7,17,20 218:22 219:1 219:3,10 220:3,8 228:11,17 229:15,20 232:3 234:17 234:22 235:2 238:5,12,15 238:19,21 239:22 240:4 240:15 242:1 242:7,14,17 243:3,7,17 243:21 management

12:14 17:9 17:10 managing

151:10 mandatory

138:1 manipulate 119:5 manuals

160:16 manufactuers

26:13 36:13 53:9 191:12 233:14 manufacture

38:12 192:9 manufactured

53:6 manufacturer

14:8 37:20 37:22 46:10 68:3 74:3,3 140:14 161:5 161:6 162:4 165:2 189:22 191:11 192:10 194:21 200:7 214:6,11 223:1,4 224:3,14,15 224:18 225:22 233:17 239:7 manufacture...

62:8 199:16 210:14 manufacture...

12:21 13:21 17:7 24:14 53:8 74:16 161:3 172:16 173:2,16 174:18 175:12 215:16 217:18 224:4 225:2,5 232:21 manufacturi...

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 71:14 142:15 201:8 222:11 222:22 224:6 many41:14

62:14 67:6 71:7 139:5,5 205:12 209:3 242:19 243:11 map29:4 99:9 mapping

36:14 margin 39:1

184:13 Mark3:3

133:19 138:22 148:8 148:10,11,11 149:5,6,7,8 149:20 155:20 156:12 157:3 158:11 159:9 160:1 163:13 marked 58:18 market 18:12

19:6 23:2 24:22 25:2 25:19,20 33:19 36:10 43:5,8 47:3 48:7 54:15 57:5,10,11 64:18,21 70:15 163:7 167:4 178:13 200:7 206:16 207:11,17 208:15 222:14 224:10,18 225:3,9 Marshall 2:13

4:19 15:6 16:11 23:21 188:16 228:1 mass238:10

240:22 match 37:8

92:7 196:15 196:15 matches 98:2 matching

194:14 material 12:6

12:22 79:17 79:18 80:1 176:16 materials

12:12,18 26:16 58:7 math 105:19 matter9:17

21:11 34:8 50:2 196:16 max67:20

111:1 194:12 maximum

168:12 may 1:7 20:12

23:21 24:6 26:19 35:7 42:10 46:9 47:5 68:4,16 68:16 86:17 103:12 108:2 128:18 151:19 152:17 153:18 160:6 161:3,7 163:4,4 166:21,22 174:16 195:13 197:17 207:20 208:19 209:4 210:4 212:5 218:18 220:4 221:18 226:3 226:5,21 227:13 228:9 235:13 236:6 242:10 245:12 maybe24:3

28:6 33:17 38:8 51:6 64:8 72:4,6 74:12 93:17 95:21 96:22 97:22 102:13 104:16 105:8 119:15 126:3 127:6,18 128:7 129:16 134:11 138:11,11,19 140:17 142:19 146:4 147:15 155:15 171:1 188:17 192:4 195:21 207:14 208:16 210:12,13 214:10 217:5 221:13,19 223:17 231:22 234:6 235:10 242:20 243:10 McCabe2:15

5:21,21 mean 18:3

21:12 24:21 25:18 27:6 27:18 36:15 43:17 45:7 46:6 67:2 68:8,9 70:19 71:6,18 80:14 86:8 87:8,9,14 90:1 91:10 92:16 93:13 94:2 95:15 97:5,14 98:5 100:10 102:13 103:11 104:2 109:11 112:19 116:6 116:15 117:9 117:10,12,13 120:2 121:6 122:13 138:7 140:21 144:16 145:12 154:1 155:16 158:5 159:18 165:14 166:17 167:1 175:18 182:18 184:6 185:9 193:6 195:8 198:21 199:7 200:21 206:3 214:5 218:17 219:4 224:17 229:18 means24:18

25:15 27:9 60:1 101:15 185:16 meant26:1 meantime26:9 measure

110:18 measured

160:18 measureme... 156:1 measures

70:11 71:6 measuring

20:2 156:6 mechanical

56:17 medium

127:19 195:4 196:11 meet60:4

81:15 217:12 meeting 1:5

4:4 6:20 8:1 8:5 14:12 25:3 80:8,16 81:1 83:3 86:5 103:12 128:9 129:4 129:21 133:7 134:9 146:3 150:22 157:15,22 158:7,8 160:6 161:2 171:14 174:11 221:10,18 235:11 239:10 244:3 meetings 7:21

10:4 187:17 218:2 221:2 222:4 226:10 meets 188:8 Meg 3:5 6:4

7:7,9 101:21 133:14 Megan 133:16 memory72:13 mention

135:17 175:5 175:6

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 mentioned

62:11 156:13 191:7 222:3 222:15 223:21 message

219:5 metal 139:1

148:7,13 149:9,12,21 method

102:11,11 137:22 169:19 223:6 methods

206:5 Meyers2:16

6:2 36:2 63:20 108:19 168:22 170:4 170:17 mic 132:13

143:15 Michael 2:15

2:20 5:21 6:5 133:14,17,21 micro-data

84:19 microchannel

193:5 microphone

132:7 135:11 180:6,7 middle36:1

55:9,10 56:13 237:6 midpoint27:7

27:8,15 might8:16

14:20 16:9 29:18 35:15 37:2 38:7 56:9 62:20 68:10 85:2 98:10,12 101:17 160:11 166:3 166:4 173:4 173:15 191:19,21 192:5 197:18 198:2 202:8 206:14 208:17 212:11 234:6 235:14 238:18 mike49:4

133:19,22 160:12 mild 75:16 million 14:15

51:1,1 52:7 mind 19:17

50:6 100:11 107:20 108:15 115:8 115:15,16 121:20 123:14 185:1 203:14 229:14 mine72:18 minimize

38:12 minimum

22:12 38:17 77:7 110:21 111:12 minimums

77:6 minus69:15

70:4,6,7,7 minute 170:7 minutes 169:2

170:5,11 mischaracte...

104:7 Mislak2:17 5:1,1 134:19 135:5,8 140:13 170:21,21 missed 35:8 missing 196:9

208:15 mistaken

29:18 mitigate26:15 Mitsubishi

4:21 22:15 63:6 mix 183:22 mode52:16

80:2 model 13:6

21:22 23:6,7 23:9,10 49:13 88:1,3 88:8 92:15 97:20 98:16 102:5,21 103:1 110:4 119:19 139:17 206:9 206:12 207:22 209:11 211:14 212:15 213:20 215:9 215:18 216:15 219:4 219:7 222:11 222:20 224:12,21 225:10 228:7 233:16 239:5 modeled 81:5

82:15 175:16 189:15 226:18 236:5 239:15 modeling

10:18 14:21 119:3 202:5 205:15,17 209:6,10 211:6,21 212:2 213:10 216:16 222:9 222:9 230:16 231:13 models 13:5

13:16 23:19 25:15 26:8 33:15,20 34:4 36:9,11 37:8,14 67:6 94:17 97:3 97:15 98:1,3 119:17,18 126:7,18 171:16,17 172:1,1,5,16 173:2,19 174:12 176:10 188:12 202:10 219:6 222:5 223:8 223:14,17 225:20 227:6 229:18 230:7 233:15,16 modern 139:4 modest235:20 modifications

190:5 modulating

204:14 modulation

204:10 moisture

227:19 moment23:2 Monday75:8 78:2 money 104:17

166:16 monitor

227:18 months 19:4 more 11:9

12:17,21 15:11 17:4,6 18:11 19:16 19:17 20:10 22:14,16,19 25:14,19 27:16 28:4,5 32:1 35:14 35:15,16 42:1 49:13 50:13,14 54:2 59:13 59:15,18,20 60:2 61:20 62:19 63:16 63:18 67:15 72:3 75:20 85:5,15,16 85:17 86:18 86:22 89:9 89:14,18 90:15 96:11 97:16,18 98:6 99:11 104:20 105:6 108:6 111:18 119:21 120:18 127:17 129:22 131:9 131:13 133:10 139:2 150:5,6 152:10 153:5 153:6 154:10 156:12 158:7

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 163:15 164:2 172:13 174:15 179:22 185:3 186:19 194:4 197:4,5 198:22 200:22 201:4 201:13,21 204:17,19 207:8 208:17 211:1,16,16 211:20 214:14 218:18 222:10,13 226:3,5 227:7,10,12 227:17 228:5 229:3,4 230:9 231:16 236:15 238:8 238:8 239:16 241:20 242:11 morning4:2

11:1,3 75:7,8 77:16 78:2,3 88:13 134:15 most29:6

31:14 50:16 50:17 53:4 60:11 77:7 93:21 99:16 99:18 105:2 134:19 143:9 143:11,12 168:9 174:2 174:7,8 202:5 208:14 242:17 mostly26:7

30:11 75:11 84:11 101:4 173:20 mother 132:15 motor 143:7,8

166:12 183:1 186:1 motors 183:13

186:2,7,8,10 mouth 180:6 move25:2

31:6 34:8 80:5 134:4,5 135:11 136:8 143:14 176:12 178:15 213:7 219:17 221:11 moved48:12 Movement

160:9 moving 146:1

167:20 171:12 176:2 176:5 200:10 202:1 213:14 237:18 much 8:2

31:12,13 32:3 41:18 42:8 48:3 51:6 56:5 61:20 75:22 79:22 80:13 81:19 87:9 88:22 101:3 107:7,22 110:12 112:6 113:8,18 114:19 128:3 128:15,17 130:16 131:13 132:17 134:21 165:15 174:15 175:14 176:18 192:4 192:7 198:12 204:5 207:21 208:2 209:17 211:12 221:7 242:10 multiple

189:16 200:17 multiply

121:17 must25:15

26:3 137:14 231:4 N N 2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1,1,1 name9:8

132:11 149:19 named 168:10 nanograms

16:18 17:21 nation 18:4 national 43:4

44:6 45:9,10 48:19 49:3 84:5 nationally48:7 naturally

193:15 Navigant5:15

5:17,20 11:4 18:11 82:14 138:3,14 156:13 157:18 158:6 160:2,3,4 181:8 185:15 198:2 near70:14 132:7 necessarily

29:1 46:14 46:16 48:12 90:11,17 111:7 119:6 123:10 152:15 177:12 193:6 203:7 232:6 necessary

88:4 131:13 NEEA5:3

192:13 202:22 need 7:14,20

11:20 13:5 14:2 17:4 26:15 50:9 51:17 52:5 61:18 63:9 70:10 81:9 105:15,18 110:2 113:19 116:7 117:4 122:19 129:6 129:15 144:19 145:22 153:7 154:22 163:11,19 170:1,3 180:5 183:16 196:5,6 197:4,5 211:1 213:13 215:22 needed 178:1

178:18 226:14 needs 15:16

15:22 16:4 115:11 128:5 135:19 136:8 191:9 negative60:13 negotiate

108:22 117:1 120:2 141:21 negotiating

120:11 145:17 negotiation

108:22 115:3 negotiations

141:6 nervous61:3

88:14 116:3 net31:4 52:9

93:14 103:16 network

155:22 158:21,22 neutralizer

42:14 neutralizers

41:10 neutralizing

41:20 never42:3

88:6 229:14 new 16:9 30:7

54:13 65:2 85:19 96:4 96:16 103:6 106:5,11,19 122:13 163:3 164:2 168:8 222:8 newer 163:17 next7:18

11:11 13:13 92:5 99:4 127:12 128:9 129:3,5 133:2,5,7 144:8 147:4

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 157:13,14,22 158:6,8 160:5 167:20 176:15 178:15 190:11,15 191:7 202:21 221:9 235:11 nice91:7 Nick2:17 5:1

134:14 137:17 170:21 183:7 night34:9 78:3

169:5,7 nine33:7,12

33:17,20 176:15 nitty-gritty

189:18 nobody 106:9

196:14 nodding23:4 nomenclature

188:19 nominal

182:18,19 240:21 non-conserv...

166:19 non-econom...

127:21 131:6 non-econom...

110:10 non-weather...

79:9 nondisclosure

175:8 none22:8

35:10 237:1 Nope232:2 NOPR 6:18,19

6:21 11:22 13:14 19:3 35:5 82:6 136:5 168:10 222:4,7 nor33:13

245:8,10 normally65:1

148:16 179:7 north 58:14,14 north-south

74:18 Northwest

138:4 note31:18

49:16 52:13 nothing 18:22

25:21 57:15 94:15 107:18 137:11 169:7 notice6:17

18:9 181:18 212:17 noticed 73:9

136:11 noting 85:17 NOx 15:9,13

16:2 nuances24:9 number39:19

44:4 46:6 85:9,18 96:20 101:22 104:11,14 107:21,22,22 108:3,21 109:12 111:3 111:20 112:13 115:7 118:9 120:12 120:14 151:13,19 152:9 153:7 155:18,21 156:13 159:6 164:7,14,15 164:18 173:7 180:18 181:9 181:11 213:19 220:21 224:12,22 234:1 236:21 242:1 numbers6:6

57:15 73:22 74:11 76:2 76:18 77:3,5 77:10 83:17 84:17 85:16 95:11 97:16 102:20 107:12 109:3 109:7,10,11 115:8 119:6 119:8,11 120:22 123:5 127:2 152:6 153:13 158:18,22 159:3 168:1 169:14 216:15 O O4:1 125:1,1,1 objection

169:4 objections

133:12 objective

111:10 observation

56:19 195:15 200:5 observe 13:15 observed

13:16 232:18 observing

57:13 obviously44:6 46:22 57:19 75:21 108:20 117:6 198:7 205:22 220:21 223:4 224:17 occur81:17

82:1 156:4 occurrence

81:13 occurring

112:6 116:5 occurs52:14 OEMs224:10 off8:3 47:14

50:19 55:4,8 55:11 58:19 80:18 87:4 113:3 118:16 123:5,10 126:20 137:15 141:1 170:11 177:15 196:21 206:19 207:10 234:8 235:8 Off-the-record

171:7 180:8 183:6 186:5 199:22 offer 13:7

139:16 140:3 184:20 offered 66:6 office 184:2

220:1 offline234:7

234:11 often 32:6 oh 9:9 73:19

100:7 125:16 127:3 130:8 146:17 154:22 156:20 162:19 186:11 204:7 oil 30:20 33:4

43:14 44:2 44:11 45:20 45:22 46:12 46:15 47:11 48:7,15 49:9 52:11,15,22 52:22 53:6 53:16,18,19 54:6 Oil/fire 11:17 okay4:2 36:14

70:5,21 71:2 73:14 76:13 78:11 80:5 86:12 116:19 119:20 124:14 125:2 125:4 126:22 127:5,15 129:6,7 130:8 133:10 133:16 134:1 134:3 135:9 138:21 144:21 145:15 146:1 150:13 153:12 158:8 160:4,7 161:13 164:11 167:9 169:21 173:6 173:17 193:18 198:15 209:13 212:16

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 221:20 229:22 240:17 old 19:22 26:1

43:18 88:22 195:8 older 122:3

163:16 oldest99:19 on-off72:1 on/off227:3 once28:22

77:21 98:19 100:1 128:14 134:21 175:14 183:19 188:18 204:19 206:18 217:1 227:5 one's 14:19

38:20 46:4 one-by-one

173:16 ones33:11

88:10 93:7 117:15 178:20 195:21 209:5 216:15,17 218:13 226:5 online4:11

148:8 onto 155:4

167:20 open 9:6 55:13

65:14 77:2,4 79:3 86:6 137:19 opening 150:8 openings

165:22 166:2 operating 105:14 148:5 177:4 214:17 215:1 226:20 operation

38:13 80:3 operations

123:3 opinion

150:14 opinions

149:14 opportunity

56:22 133:7 144:3 220:18 opposed 48:9

52:16 63:17 64:9 81:5 82:3 opposite

52:17 56:1 57:13 83:18 option 13:4,4

73:5,8 99:6 141:7 202:9 212:18 234:1 options 11:8

194:16,17 order59:20

60:3 64:8 69:1 107:11 107:17 142:7 162:5 179:3 195:12 198:11 207:4 222:10 ordering 46:17

181:16 original 93:9

106:13,21 164:1 179:7 originally

66:14 136:5 otherwise

61:18 198:20 ought214:10 217:6 219:6 ourselves26:7

46:21 166:5 210:20 out-stream

198:10 outcome57:6 outdoor32:20

34:5 53:15 53:19 75:22 75:22 76:12 76:17,20,21 77:2,11 143:8 177:7 180:19 181:4 186:1,17 outdoor-heat

181:3 outdoors

31:20 outlet 150:10

150:16 151:9 163:18 output 110:3 outside29:6

56:9 75:3 77:7,18,22 79:1,17 143:17 over 10:2

14:15 30:18 31:7 43:11 45:11,14 52:8 58:22 59:21,21 64:5 81:8 82:18,19 91:19 93:14 94:20 96:5 103:16 105:6 105:16 110:12 111:16 113:21 125:9 129:12 135:4 186:12 205:22 217:1 220:10,14 234:12 overall 13:18

67:12 99:1 111:5 189:13 overcome

58:4,11 152:4 overestimate

32:18 overriding

108:6 oversize92:9 oversized 90:4

92:19 93:8 overview

226:13 own 22:10

54:5 162:4 216:19 P P2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1 p.m 8:21 244:4 Pacific 15:6 package

200:13,18,19 200:20 packaged

84:21 85:3,4 85:15,20 96:12 121:10 121:16,19 packs 18:2

39:21 page 188:10

202:21 pair 187:14 panels50:20 55:11 Paper30:18 paradigm

90:19 Pardon 49:20 parking 211:3 part7:22 8:1

29:20 31:2,3 66:9 90:10 93:15 100:21 105:9 106:7 107:4,6 108:12 117:18 123:11 161:11 165:6 172:12 208:18 228:8 part-load 93:2 partial 189:5 participants

133:13,14 participate

40:1 41:12 47:21 participating

47:6,17 particular

13:16 43:6 85:1 88:1,5,7 128:16 169:14 182:1 193:8 194:21 200:16 particularly

66:19 84:20 90:14,21 parties245:8 parties' 245:9 parts54:14

55:22 56:5 69:19 84:6 pass20:9

21:18 222:16

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 222:16 passing 26:8

93:14 past53:5 85:1

226:10 path 56:20

232:11,11 233:2,2,3,4,6 237:20,21,21 239:6 240:20 240:21 241:1 paths241:12 patterns68:18 Paul 2:9 4:21

22:15 63:6 pay200:21 payback39:7

119:22 120:1 120:3 paying 108:7 PCS 186:2 penalty39:17 pencil 8:8 pencils 7:21 people4:11

17:3,10 47:5 54:12 61:3 73:6 77:17 107:10,16 108:6,9 123:17,21 131:14 138:14 141:7 141:7 172:19 174:21 182:5 183:12 216:22 221:10 228:18 238:5 238:12 per 14:12

16:18 17:22 20:19 48:8 52:7,9 97:7 97:10,19 102:16 176:8 181:20 185:8 201:19 percent 11:9,9

11:11 12:7 12:10 18:10 18:18 20:9 20:19 23:3,3 24:1,6,12 25:7,11,19 25:20 26:19 27:11 31:20 31:21 32:21 32:22,22 33:1,16 41:10 44:10 44:16 46:22 49:9,9 57:11 59:4,8 65:6 65:11,13 69:14 76:16 77:11,11,12 83:15,20 84:21,22 85:5,15,18 86:8,9,13,13 86:16,22 87:7 93:8 95:2,13,16 96:2,10,11 96:19 100:2 101:15,20 102:7,22 107:20 108:1 108:2,16 111:1 115:15 117:21 118:4 120:16,18,21 121:5 122:15 123:15,16,19 136:22,22 139:11 140:1 145:2,2 162:8,10,14 162:20 163:7 163:8 164:8 164:17 165:1 183:2,17 189:12,12,13 200:19,20,20 202:17 203:5 203:5,11,12 203:21 204:1 204:1,3,5 206:17 207:13,16 210:12,16 218:21 percentage

13:5 18:13 33:18 41:18 42:2 96:14 96:16,18 121:13,14,15 123:20 162:22 165:1 165:3 201:16 206:15 208:16,20 224:2 238:18 238:22 percentages

94:1 152:1 perception

139:10 performance

19:18 20:22 82:15 106:18 114:21 131:10 147:5 167:17 188:10,12 189:10 199:18 performing

19:19 174:22 perhaps30:4 30:21 32:8 34:22 47:9 75:1 91:14 91:16 99:6 109:2 125:17 148:7 176:9 206:10 period 70:6

123:8 person 45:13 personally

109:22 perspective

20:12 30:10 34:11 41:3 194:16 Pete2:5 5:11 PG&E4:19

188:16 228:1 phonetic

18:17 121:2 photos 13:22 physical

216:17 222:12,21 physically

68:17 145:6 145:7 pick 118:7

198:21 picked 173:19

193:10 picking 113:2

207:6 217:4 picture42:21

210:5 pictures 64:1 piece50:7

105:21 107:17 180:16 pieces 56:5 pinion 106:2 pinpoint 169:11 place30:21

126:18 141:7 places 107:15 plan 7:19 9:3

159:16 planned 133:3 plans 102:7 platform 241:8 platforms

241:5,13,20 player225:3 playing89:7 please 9:8

19:17 170:18 171:6 186:19 222:1 plot 198:19 plots 191:10

191:15 199:4 plug 153:13 plus 162:10,13

229:2 podiuma

10:14 point 19:2 36:8

38:20 48:17 49:19 50:5 51:15 54:17 57:7 58:21 60:20 64:2 66:19 67:3 68:6 77:15 81:10 89:10 94:4,7 95:21 105:3,11 116:2,3 126:8 128:4 128:11 139:21 153:17 160:20 172:3 191:17 194:14

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 199:13 206:8 208:4,7,17 214:7 219:17 225:16 232:20 233:13,14 pointed 7:13 pointing 87:17 points29:15

91:17 107:15 120:11,13 189:3,7,13 205:18 211:9 policy 15:12

15:15 91:8 pollution 15:9 popular 139:2

139:5,7 portion 47:3

202:11 219:20 pose239:4,4 position

150:10 positive31:2 possible 12:13

102:3 178:2 221:15 possibly 12:12

16:9 post92:13

131:18 post-process

103:4 post-proces...

103:2 pot58:10 potential

136:6 191:9 218:1 potentially

6:22 7:1 12:17 13:7 101:19 137:6 184:14 188:14 193:5 potion 150:6 pounds56:15

236:15 237:9 242:18 power59:20

152:4 179:4 189:7 191:2 230:9 pre-ARSAC

218:2 pre-meetings

26:12 precious

182:12 precise 130:14 precision

119:2 preliminary

223:22 prepared

176:10 225:21 presence

110:7 present 12:2

52:8,9 79:20 105:4 presentation

83:4,8 135:18 187:22 presented

65:15 83:7 235:5 presenting

135:14 173:13 preserve

29:21 pressing

146:17,18 pressure 59:18 60:8 90:15 136:14 136:16 147:6 147:13,18,21 147:22 148:12,19 149:14,16 150:4 151:3 152:1,2,16 153:1,5,20 158:12,13 159:4,5,15 179:4 205:9 218:9 pressures

82:16 153:8 158:16 190:19 presumably

76:15 77:1 108:18 pretty 10:20

24:7 36:6 37:7 51:1,2,2 77:20 82:5 100:11 126:8 126:9 128:17 159:1,3,6 167:10 192:7 192:20 210:21 234:7 234:15 prevent69:1 previous

174:11 187:17 222:4 previously

19:6 21:5 price 112:21 prices 15:4 primarily

14:11 89:19 184:12 234:17 primary 11:8 91:20 223:6 prior22:22

34:22 80:22 99:14,15 235:6 priority 103:13 privately 175:6

175:12 probably

10:21 18:11 19:22 27:12 28:2 33:8 42:4,21 46:12,19 51:4 55:15 58:14 71:10 71:10 72:16 73:4,5 76:11 76:17 78:1,2 78:5 91:21 94:15 97:15 97:22 99:19 103:8 112:10 116:1 124:9 135:19 142:15 143:18 148:12 152:14,17 158:4 160:13 165:2,10 172:18 182:6 184:10 203:22 205:21 206:16,22 207:1,8,9 217:22 218:16 219:1 233:1 240:2 243:16 problem 22:8

28:4 36:9 46:11 82:11 88:2 90:10 106:7 107:6 152:22 174:19 203:1 209:22 problems

61:11,13 75:21 79:6 95:7 111:15 112:2 procedure

90:12,17 137:10 142:10 188:19 203:2 209:10 214:2 243:17 procedures

10:12 25:1 proceedings

245:5 process 10:11

19:5 44:17 131:18 processing

87:1 92:13 114:5 132:4 produce40:9

128:14 producing

83:2 product 15:16

26:22 28:20 29:1,3 38:10 41:6 44:18 48:11 50:14 51:6,10,16 53:15 66:5 78:19 137:20 139:10,13 140:3,15 141:5,7 142:21 145:3

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 145:12 178:10 193:15 197:8 201:4,6 205:12 216:7 225:6 226:15 239:7,8 production

37:20,22 201:11 224:5 products29:6

29:19 30:3 35:12 44:18 46:16,21 47:19 48:5 53:1,10 58:18 59:7 61:12 87:3 139:19 141:10 178:6 178:13 profile88:15

173:7 179:14 188:7 189:1 214:6 profiles87:5

88:15,17 94:16 program 67:22

134:4 151:2 179:8 183:16 183:16 programs

16:17 138:17 progress

58:17,22 221:12 project5:9

138:7 promised

220:7 pronounced

149:19 properly83:19 proposal 116:16 127:17 141:13 proposals

136:9 proposed 44:8

44:10 45:11 45:14,16 170:22 171:3 proposes

140:14 proposing

94:9 129:8 131:2,2,3,11 141:17 provide

112:10 121:8 133:6 137:6 151:5 161:16 215:17 232:16 provided 8:12

82:14 84:20 110:13 155:13,14 157:20 191:4 232:19 provides

226:13 providing

202:10 227:21 Provisions

146:5 pry55:13 PSL556:22 public4:10

14:12 15:12 21:11 27:18 publicly 175:6 pull 27:19

59:20 132:7 pulled 31:16 34:21 pulling 77:20

99:10,12 241:17,18 pure207:7 purely212:10 purpose201:3

201:13 purposes

170:8 push 80:6

209:5 219:20 pushed 128:19 pushes 90:5 pushing 87:4 put 17:4 58:8

58:10 61:20 62:13 93:17 104:18 112:11 116:2 123:10 126:12 134:22 135:21 151:3 154:16 158:9 163:20 164:18 174:22 183:14 187:2 240:2,7,8,11 240:13,16,20 putting20:10

62:15 87:15 240:3 Q QAC50:1 quads45:12

45:12 99:2,2 quality 17:9,9 quantify

126:13 quantifying

125:21 quantity 128:5 quarter 124:12 question

17:13 24:16 26:10,17 39:18 43:13 43:17 47:8 51:14 52:2 52:14,14 53:12,20 76:15 88:6 92:3 101:3 103:4 126:6 131:16 132:19 136:21 142:18,18 143:16 144:10,18 145:10,13 147:10 160:22 161:8 161:14 166:18 172:11,22 178:4 184:5 202:9 204:8 211:6 214:15 215:7 216:13 219:22 233:1 236:9,14 239:3,18 questions6:7

6:10 8:10 10:12 12:20 13:10 14:4 65:15,17 86:7 132:21 134:10 186:18 187:15 189:20 191:6 191:21 220:5 220:19,21 221:4 226:11 quick4:8

10:20 11:6 11:13 17:13 55:21 67:14 131:16 133:1 144:10 160:9 170:4 219:22 236:9 quicker 119:22 quickly99:7

99:20 104:14 quiet 132:10

132:16 quite60:7

128:19 192:4 220:5 221:3 221:5 quote 12:5

139:3 150:2 164:2 R R2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1 rack 106:2 raise74:14

166:17 raised 64:3

78:12 172:4 220:20 raising 104:6

111:22 Rally45:10 Rand 5:22 random 118:3

118:7 range 14:15

27:5,7,9,15 27:15 38:13 43:14 51:15 51:18,19 52:1 74:11 109:20 151:7

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 151:12 153:3 202:5,12 223:5 ranged 181:20 ranges 111:12

131:5 rare234:7 rate21:21 22:1

26:18 90:13 91:6 101:20 102:4 103:1 106:6 114:10 115:13 118:3 118:9,14 120:8 121:5 182:5 rated 19:19

29:20 30:4,5 35:13 46:22 182:2 rates 101:9,13

104:12,13 147:17 rather54:13

81:18 101:4 111:8 115:5 115:6 189:18 203:5 rating 19:16

19:18 20:4 20:12,21 22:3,13 190:17 ratings24:15

24:17 25:3 28:3 101:5 182:1 ratio 182:15 rattling 123:5 re-analysis

115:9 re-clarify

140:16 re-heat211:17 re-process 113:4 114:1 114:8 re-rated 21:18

35:9 re-rating 33:6

35:7 re-run 37:10

37:10 64:13 218:12 reach 155:21

156:7 194:12 reached 108:2 read 106:12

213:4 reading

192:14 readjusting

45:19 real 20:22 69:2

87:18 114:6 131:16 156:1 174:20 203:2 218:19 240:1 realistic

111:10 116:1 152:10 157:21 158:7 158:17 170:8 reality 107:21

117:4 118:19 realize208:9 really 11:21

15:4 16:14 25:3 28:17 37:1 38:16 40:17,18 56:2 61:14 61:18,19,20 67:3,5,20 68:12 70:10 75:5 80:13 80:15 82:18 87:12,17 88:4 89:9 90:1,1,17,20 92:4 98:4 110:6 111:9 114:16 117:9 122:21 123:13 128:11 133:1 135:17 145:21 146:16 148:22,22 150:4 159:4 159:20 163:19 166:4 172:5 182:19 191:17 193:10,14,14 198:12 200:22 203:2 203:10 207:1 207:22 208:2 209:7 210:12 211:22 212:4 212:20 218:6 219:6 229:21 242:2 reason 55:20

58:2 79:8 87:2 90:20 94:21 145:16 181:21 202:2 217:5 223:10 reasonable

95:14 96:21 104:5 111:13 153:20 154:10 reasons 55:19

108:21 225:19 230:14 rebate24:12

24:12 rebates23:22 recalculated

65:7 161:16 recall 22:22

93:15 220:4 received 65:18 recent33:6

93:21 99:11 99:17,18 recently 168:9 recess 124:21

170:13 recognize

212:14 recommend

67:4 recommend...

215:21 234:20 recommend...

37:17 175:4 record 4:16

21:12 64:2 80:18 129:18 149:18 170:12 234:9 245:6 recovery

218:10 red 232:14 redesign

24:20 25:16 28:8 52:10 redesigned

16:6 30:3 redesigning

26:4,7 reduce72:7

84:6 89:22 98:7 99:1 reducing 84:4 reduction

122:15 refer224:9 reference 52:13 134:15 references

106:12 180:3 referencing

106:10 refined 176:6

226:12 reflect 144:15 reflected

92:12 refresh 72:12 refresher 11:6

11:13 refrigerant

180:11 regard 74:1 regarding

218:3 regardless

28:21 36:4 102:12 136:14 154:20 230:15 regenerate

90:7 regiment26:2 region 84:10 regional 84:7 regulations

25:13 61:20 rehashed

146:7 reheat205:20 reinvention

106:1 rejuvenated

124:15 related 75:21

160:22 161:1 220:22 relates26:11 relating

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 160:11 relative98:4

148:12 159:4 182:20 224:2 245:7,9 Relative-wise

218:17 relatively

11:16 49:15 75:15 112:7 113:7 116:12 relevant39:21

230:1 reliability 12:9

21:1 70:12 reliable28:21 remains

145:11 remember

10:1 16:11 26:14 39:16 60:9 123:2 129:20 207:2 remind 235:18 reminder

92:17 222:3 remote 133:12

133:13 removal 32:2

65:8 remove 103:5 removed

111:6 removing

91:16 rename 167:22 renew 124:10 repeat80:22 repeating

176:16 replace50:11

50:12,15,18 54:7 56:3,5 163:16 165:5 166:5 replaced 49:20

51:17 54:12 165:2 195:8 replacement

54:14,14 55:22 161:7 163:8,10 replacements

147:8 164:22 165:1 replaces 55:21 replacing 54:8

161:20 162:4 163:10 report34:8

106:11,22 170:15,18 220:18 reported 6:1 reporter23:12

23:15 80:19 245:1,4 represent

160:16 188:12 191:22 224:4 226:3,5 representative

14:11,18 35:17 83:10 173:13,20 174:2,7,8,20 179:19,21 182:19 207:6 222:10,14 223:20 225:8 241:10 representing

189:2 reproduce

111:9 requesting

221:17 require52:10 122:11 195:13 231:2 required 22:17

27:6 120:16 147:7 152:4 requirement

21:21 22:12 211:2 239:11 240:2 requirement's

25:11 requirements

15:13 17:15 29:7,11 30:7 46:13 86:18 100:13,14 121:22 217:13 238:20 requires29:22

86:19 98:17 research

230:6 reserve 189:19 reset218:5,9,9 residential

24:8 29:11 48:5 57:19 61:8 226:20 229:10,21 resistance

116:15 respect48:6

156:3 response7:17

11:22 158:5 171:10 rest207:15 restate95:21 result6:18,18

6:22 11:14 results31:3

63:4 83:2 101:8 114:3 128:8 171:21 171:22 172:18 176:4 223:2,9 retail 184:1

208:11 retrofit 163:4 retrofitted

163:5 return 124:12

158:22 159:21 returns 159:16

159:17 review 19:5

30:16 36:7 176:2,4 191:8 230:6 revised 230:4 revisit 137:21

144:15 Rheem 78:18

108:19 168:22 Richard 2:14 Rifle 179:10,11 riggers29:4 right 10:5

11:22 12:3 13:11 14:1 16:11,13 17:2,20 19:1 21:8,12 25:10,10,11 27:13 32:17 34:3,10,13 36:5,14 42:19,21 43:8 45:22 48:14 53:17 54:20 57:1 59:2,5,19 61:2 63:10 63:11,15 66:2,6,20 70:3,15 72:14 77:1,9 78:10 80:7 84:12 85:10 85:11 87:5 87:10 88:11 88:20,21 93:1,3,19 94:8 96:13 97:14,16,22 98:8 99:21 101:17 103:4 103:12,17 104:9 105:3 105:8,9,10 105:11 107:2 112:15,22 113:22 114:4 115:22 116:1 116:11 117:1 117:3,16,18 118:1,13,17 118:17,19,20 119:3 121:4 122:6,8,12 123:7 125:15 126:14 127:2 129:11 132:6 132:14 134:10 135:5 135:9 140:8 142:6,14 147:12,17 152:6 154:8 154:20 157:3 162:8,12,16 162:19,21 163:7,9 169:15 170:6 173:22 174:6 177:13,15 178:14

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 182:17 183:11 184:2 184:19 185:2 185:13 186:11 187:5 191:18,22 192:16 195:18 196:8 196:20,22 197:12,19,20 199:2,6,9 204:7 205:14 206:2,6 207:13 208:5 209:8 210:22 212:16 213:14,19 214:8,15 216:10 229:10,12 237:18 239:9 242:7 ripple30:3 risk69:8,13

75:3 road 110:14 Robert3:7

23:13 robust72:3 rods 106:3 roll 17:17 rollout43:4 rolls43:6 roof55:4,6

104:19 161:6 roof-top76:20 roofs58:5,6 rooftop50:7

59:5,7 229:11,12 room 62:13

64:8 68:17 133:11 143:18 224:10 Rosecliff

180:21 Rosenquist

2:18 5:13,13 30:13,19 34:20 41:21 43:1,16,21 44:21 45:7 46:2 48:13 48:17 53:17 62:1 64:4,20 65:8 66:22 71:3 73:9,12 73:14 80:12 80:20 86:10 87:19 89:2 89:11 90:9 91:12 92:16 93:1,16 96:5 96:8 99:4 100:20 102:10,22 103:10,17,20 105:2 109:1 112:4,15,19 113:20 114:11 115:20 116:9 116:19 117:12 120:6 121:3 125:4 125:15,19 126:10,22 127:3,6,10 129:8 131:20 132:18 133:4 Roslin 9:16

10:2 rot78:22 rotating 154:4 roughly34:13

39:19 83:15 86:3 192:9 202:17 round-tube

200:9 rows 185:17 RTU 52:19

225:3 228:19 RTUs53:3

226:20 rubber58:6 rule7:1 8:2

44:9,15 45:16 69:1 197:10 rules 6:9,10,13

7:7,13,16 47:22 rumbling

30:18 run 20:20

29:13 69:11 69:12 77:18 79:12,13 98:17 111:3 111:13 117:7 119:18 204:3 219:7,8 running 69:8

69:20 71:13 82:3 110:5 111:19 203:22 226:1 227:11 runs60:9 93:6

104:19 182:15 Rusty3:4 5:6

22:21 68:15 137:8 139:8 178:19 180:9 Rusty's 142:18 S S2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1,1,1 245:3,17 Sachs2:19 5:2

5:2 29:16 30:11 39:16 41:3 42:13 42:22 43:12 47:7 48:3,21 49:6 52:4 53:11 60:18 61:3 74:22 76:5,13 105:20 106:16 116:20 130:13 132:20 136:19,19 160:8,20 165:17 166:8 166:14 167:7 167:10 200:11 220:10,13 224:7,7,21 225:2,11 235:16 236:2 240:10 safety29:21

30:6 230:14 sale 161:7,17 sales28:11

144:18 207:8 207:12 208:9 210:12 224:13 same 15:21

16:8 24:22 25:3 30:6 37:3,6 45:8 45:22 46:10 46:12,15,17 47:8 63:21 67:13 74:9 79:17,18 89:16 94:18 100:12,13,20 106:10,21 118:13 130:18 136:13,15,16 147:20 150:17 151:16 156:20 161:21 163:11,12 165:2,8 166:3,7 173:9 178:9 179:4 192:7 194:2,8,10 200:17 209:7 209:12 212:3 212:13,15 215:2 228:3 230:21,22 233:7,16 235:4 236:16 237:20 Sami 3:11 5:10

178:4 186:20 217:3 sample83:13

83:19 84:12 84:15 85:8 86:2 94:1,6 95:20 101:10 110:15,18,19 112:22 121:1 138:4,7 samples21:22

22:12 29:22 san 17:20,22 sanitary41:16 satisfied

168:14 SAV 186:7

202:2,14

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 222:17 227:5 232:12 233:4 233:6,9,10 233:14,15,16 233:22 234:2 234:21 237:21 save 104:20

124:6 214:9 218:11,20 saved218:19 saves 124:1,4 saving 90:16

124:8 200:3 savings28:9

30:22 41:4 44:7 45:10 45:13 48:8 48:19 49:3 49:14 57:7 58:13 60:14 60:14 61:21 87:17 89:15 95:2 98:6 99:1 108:11 109:19 198:12 saw 176:16

230:9 241:5 say22:22 28:2

38:4,5 39:7 40:12 43:10 47:18,22 50:17 53:4 68:5 75:6 78:2 81:14 85:17 86:3 86:17 92:10 94:2 95:20 99:12 103:2 107:20 113:7 116:12 117:10,21 118:10 119:20 120:7 120:17 124:5 126:20 132:11 139:6 139:9 150:9 151:19 156:5 156:6 158:10 161:3,22 170:7,19 173:6 178:20 187:10 193:18,22 194:20 198:15 219:2 220:15 221:11 225:6 saying25:4

36:6 49:21 51:16 54:18 61:15 68:21 80:20 86:12 87:20 91:21 96:3,10 103:11 110:22 119:16 126:15 141:17 152:7 165:7 194:19 196:10 204:9 207:14 210:11 212:12 says6:17

105:12 121:2 186:21 191:18 216:5 scale42:17

98:4 112:11 147:16 200:14 201:22 scaled 43:13

148:14 231:16 scales 111:5 schedule8:4 schedules

8:10 scheduling

8:7 scientific

198:22 scope35:21

39:18 sea79:6 search 160:9 second 8:22

9:10,20 30:2 52:5 63:1 177:6 185:17 second-to-last

101:11 secondary

11:12 59:17 seconds220:3 section 160:17 sector48:5 see9:19 11:15

23:3 25:4 29:7,11,12 31:1,4 32:5 32:21 33:4 36:20 39:4 39:15 41:18 45:3,13 46:4 57:4 64:15 66:6 70:5 75:16 81:19 82:17 84:17 85:2 87:5 89:15 91:17 92:21 94:10 94:17 96:17 98:2,3 101:10 102:6 103:7 104:12 104:13 105:4 106:5,11 109:5,8,10 110:9,22 111:7 112:5 113:4,13 116:13 118:9 124:14 127:3 128:3 133:9 138:19 149:13,16 152:7 155:16 157:10 171:1 171:2 173:5 186:7,22 192:8,15,20 193:2,3,7,16 193:19,20 197:2,3 203:3 210:21 211:11 213:16 226:6 226:19 seeing 75:10

88:2 96:20 102:8 106:2 192:16 211:13 219:21 241:4 seek241:9 seeking

225:16 seen 13:3

17:22 22:5 30:17 47:2 74:13 88:17 139:3 142:22 159:1 208:8 segment

128:16 184:13 207:11 segregate

109:19 131:4 segregation 110:8 selected 190:1 selection

154:6 selections

174:6 177:18 177:20 178:6 182:12 sell 13:7 36:11

139:10 153:18 selling 73:3 send 6:8 157:9

180:2 sense20:2

24:10 28:16 33:21 37:19 47:10 79:22 84:9 89:1 105:22 109:11 114:12 120:20 122:3 136:20 153:21 156:11 158:13 163:1 177:21 200:15 209:16 217:5 217:7 224:9 233:11 sensitive

173:11 175:9 sensitivity

81:16 91:14 93:12 94:9 94:14 102:1 102:3,14 104:5 106:17 109:4 111:4 116:21 119:20 125:7 125:21

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 126:20 127:9 127:14,16 128:10,18 130:1,17 131:3,13 132:3 153:15 209:3 sensor227:8

227:18 sent7:6

101:21 sentence 9:22 separate53:18

121:11 141:4 222:16 series 134:9 serve81:19 served 85:12 service 11:10 set7:21,22

44:10 55:22 83:21 84:19 117:14 137:12,20 177:6 179:18 sets 60:14

177:8 setting 141:5 settle 119:13 seven 69:16

69:17 188:4 192:8 194:1 202:4 222:17 222:19 224:1 seven-and-a...

127:7 146:13 146:15 147:18 148:4 149:15 150:17 158:16 168:4 171:22 172:17 176:6 177:17 190:4 190:7,9 191:10 193:11 194:2 195:18 197:2 234:14 239:5 239:15 seven-and-h...

201:14 several 54:13

81:9 228:5 sewage 61:1,2 sewer41:16 sex 100:4 shapes 94:18 share33:19

36:10 43:5 57:11 224:18 225:9 shared 189:22 SharePoint

8:12,16 shares43:8

64:18,21 193:11,12 224:11 sharpened

7:21 she's 132:13

196:1 sheet 139:1

148:7,13 149:9,11,21 sheets 13:3 Shepherd

245:3,17 shifting45:21 ship28:12

239:8 shipment34:2

50:1,6 147:1 224:13 239:1 241:18 shipments

23:18 37:7 43:13 44:1,5 45:8 49:19 241:16 shipping

176:13 235:6 235:7,14,15 236:9,10,13 236:14,16,17 236:21 237:5 239:9 242:13 shooting 38:6 shoots 11:17 short71:18,20

75:11,15,20 shorter 119:22 Shorthand

245:3 should 12:19

30:21 32:9 34:11 35:16 36:3 45:8 50:6 61:15 64:8 67:6 71:15 81:14 87:11 91:10 95:6 102:3 104:11 106:14 113:7 119:12 120:7 120:9,13,17 124:9,10 137:2 138:6 140:17 148:14 152:12,19,20 153:13 168:16 175:11 187:1 187:5 192:14 193:18 205:11 208:1 208:16 212:20 213:17 228:14 233:21,21 234:1 239:14 show44:19

45:17 49:7 60:12 86:15 89:6,6,9 92:6 94:22 97:16 99:9 112:9 122:15 133:9 173:9 176:5 176:11 190:6 191:15 211:17 213:1 236:4 showed 13:22

44:16,20 65:9 showing 38:1

43:3,22 44:7 62:7 81:1 101:8 188:8 189:6,8 191:11 shown 90:22 shows 2:20

6:5 43:8 83:12,13,21 97:6 177:3 185:7 188:5 188:10 189:1 189:13 side 12:6 24:8

27:14 36:18 36:19,22 39:20 41:13 45:1 50:4,20 55:11 56:5 59:19,22 60:2 61:8 72:5 90:14 120:10 137:12,13 139:15 143:8 151:21 177:7 180:20 203:12 sideways

129:21 130:11 signage 145:3 significant

47:1 50:19 51:2 55:4,14 56:14 58:2 58:12 60:8 69:13,18 82:6,17 111:22 132:2 160:19 192:10,11 199:12 236:4 241:7 significantly

14:17 74:15 90:3,7 similar 11:18

37:8 149:16 188:22 193:20 226:6 226:19 228:3 simple43:4

211:10 229:1 simply 106:18

113:6,7 simulate 187:8 simulation

110:4 179:8 simulations

94:10 simultaneous

10:3 24:4 39:8 46:8 130:5 132:16 138:13 140:19 143:21 157:4 160:13 163:2

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 165:15 186:13 198:5 216:6 237:14 since7:9 19:8

35:22 44:17 64:7 80:6 85:13 89:13 96:10 108:21 111:4 139:4 142:9 148:13 150:22 165:18,18 171:14 228:8 231:14 232:15 single 13:6

81:15 88:10 146:11,12,14 146:17,17 177:2,3,4 215:1,19 226:21 227:2 229:18 232:15 236:2 single-face

229:12 single-speed

219:14 sit 113:11 site60:8

151:22 sitting 78:10 situation

15:15 27:4 52:17 75:7 76:4 161:21 173:6 175:2 situations

14:7 136:21 six93:15

204:13,19 211:10 Sixty242:19 size 13:19 14:6 14:6 16:17 18:14 19:2 38:14 67:2 67:13 69:1 93:10 136:13 147:12,22 150:8,11 163:11,12,16 164:1,2 165:15 167:8 176:3 184:22 191:8 192:5 192:10,11,17 194:12,13,13 198:15,16 200:3,14,17 200:19,22 201:16 203:20 208:8 224:11 226:17 232:7 236:19 237:12 sized 92:8

165:8 sizes 14:8 15:2

38:13 67:5,7 68:10,10 95:3 137:1 147:21 192:1 192:6 193:8 195:17 196:3 196:4 198:7 199:2 201:7 226:2 241:4 sizing 92:6 skew 98:12 skewed 90:3 skimmed 6:16 skinny 154:13 slew65:1

107:2 slide7:13,18

13:13 41:8 43:1 44:14 62:7 65:9 80:21,22 83:5 144:6,8 146:2 171:13 185:5,21 219:13 226:9 235:18 slides47:9

80:15 99:5 175:21 176:5 176:15 slight 171:20

190:5 slightly61:12

62:19 SMACNA

139:1 149:22 163:13 small 8:15

24:10 40:2,9 43:21,22 47:3 48:7 53:9 110:15 140:4 144:18 144:19 171:18 192:1 194:11 195:2 210:16 241:15 smaller51:6

140:6,14 148:1,18 200:10 226:2 smallest

197:22 smooth 179:7 snapshot

210:14 so-called

136:1 software 118:6 sold 28:5

160:18 solution 138:1 solve97:22 some8:6 11:4

11:19 12:2 12:11,13,20 13:3,10,21 13:22 14:13 14:16,21 18:9 19:22 23:22 24:9 24:13,14 25:2,15 30:4 31:16 35:20 43:19 45:19 51:22 52:3 54:15 57:11 58:13,19 60:20 61:19 68:4,4,14,16 68:17 69:10 69:10,18 70:8,10 71:6 71:13 72:4,6 73:16,16 74:13 78:21 86:17 87:7 87:17 88:13 89:15 91:7 91:13 93:6 93:20 94:9 94:17,22 95:9,9 101:8 109:3,9 110:18,21 111:11 112:4 112:8,10 114:11,20 115:9,10,12 115:13,17 122:3 124:15 126:11,13 127:17 132:4 134:15 135:21 136:20 138:19,20 139:14 140:6 146:2,4,9,16 151:22 154:5 154:15,18 156:1 157:1 157:10 161:3 162:20 164:7 166:22 167:7 167:22 168:19 171:13,20,21 174:6 175:20 175:22 176:2 176:4,4,9,11 176:16 183:5 183:8,12 184:9,11,16 186:16 187:8 187:18,18 188:9 189:19 190:5,5 191:8,11 192:20 195:11,16 197:9,12,14 197:17 199:2 199:4 201:19 202:7 204:14 204:15,16 205:22 208:10 211:22 212:14 213:16 214:12 216:19 217:18 219:21 223:3 225:15 226:10 228:5 231:5 240:16 240:17 241:5

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 somebody

213:1 214:10 215:10 somebody's

103:19 somehow8:12

17:4 someone26:3

27:1 161:20 something 6:3

7:2 14:3 15:14 21:9 24:6 27:9,10 27:10 28:6 30:17 40:13 42:6 55:12 55:18 58:20 60:3 63:2 72:9 88:20 88:21 99:7 109:18 113:6 115:12 118:11 120:8 120:9 128:8 135:17 136:2 136:10 137:15 139:12 140:22 144:5 153:10 154:9 154:10 159:10 164:8 170:15 188:14 193:14,20 196:9 198:21 198:22 206:15 214:5 214:7 215:5 215:10 228:20 236:15 sometime

106:15 sometimes 26:20 40:10 54:1 154:7 154:11 156:2 163:19 somewhat

138:17 151:12 154:5 211:10 somewhere

20:19 24:5 45:13 118:18 119:9 120:14 204:1 soon 126:9

210:22 221:14 sooner 135:1

160:6 sophisticated

227:11,18 229:3,4 230:17 sorry 10:15

23:12 69:5 69:14 99:17 130:19 143:16 180:14,21 187:7 232:14 238:11 sort 11:19

14:21 39:18 48:4 91:14 91:17,22 93:2 94:8,9 94:11 96:18 99:19 101:6 102:14 103:7 110:3 112:10 113:4 114:12 115:9 117:21 121:10 125:21 126:13 132:5 139:12 146:14 182:13 195:4 197:13 sorts 150:4

205:20 Sound 80:9 sounds24:17

43:19 45:18 56:4 129:3 156:10 195:16,19 208:15 217:17 238:11 source 142:20

155:10 178:7 225:13 sources 136:4 South 17:18

17:21 space 13:17

85:21 121:14 121:16 122:16 163:17 178:22 179:1 184:1 spanning

223:5 speak26:6

34:4 35:11 47:17 53:8 80:15 200:4 speaker6:4,12

6:14 9:8,11 9:13,15,18 9:21,22 10:1 10:6,19 11:2 17:16 18:2,6 18:20 19:1,3 19:13,15,21 20:6,14 21:2 21:14,20 22:6,11,21 23:5,7,9,10 23:16,21 24:2 30:18 34:1,5,15 35:10,12,14 35:16 36:4 37:9,16 39:12,22 40:5,15,17 41:7 42:1,6 42:12,19 43:18 46:9 47:14 49:4 49:11 50:3 52:21 63:10 63:14 67:9 74:16,20 76:14 77:1,5 77:9,15 100:15 103:8 104:8 106:14 108:13 116:17 130:6 130:15 132:6 132:8,9,11 132:13 133:1 133:8,19,21 133:22 135:11 138:9 138:21 140:5 140:8,9,11 140:19 142:7 142:11 143:14,20,22 144:6 149:4 149:5,6,7,11 156:20,22 157:7 158:2 159:12 160:3 160:13 161:11,15 164:12,15 165:12,13 175:11,13,22 179:22 180:2 180:5,14,22 181:18 182:3 182:5,14 183:4,12 184:5,15 185:1,20 186:11,18 187:3,6,10 197:7,14,17 197:21 198:1 198:3,6 199:17 201:2 201:8,10,12 201:15,17 203:14 204:4 204:12 205:2 205:8,11,14 205:19 206:14,18 207:11,16,20 208:18 209:2 209:13,19,22 210:7,19 211:3,8,21 212:8,17 213:3 214:18 215:3,8,11 215:14,18,20 215:22 216:4 217:1,7 218:7,17,20 218:22 219:1 219:3,10 220:3,8 228:11,17 229:15,20 232:3 234:17 234:22 235:2 237:18 238:5 238:12,15,19 238:21

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 239:22 240:4 240:15 242:1 242:7,14,17 243:3,7,17 243:21 speaking

11:18 23:19 30:15 31:16 32:4,12,16 33:11,15,22 34:9 35:13 40:10 41:5 44:3 45:12 46:21 47:4 49:14,15,16 51:10 53:10 68:4 84:11 124:8 130:5 132:16 138:13 140:19 143:21 157:4 160:14 163:2 165:16 172:2 172:14 176:14 180:3 186:13 189:16 191:3 195:14 198:8 199:20 200:3 203:19 205:1 206:11 215:6 219:15 232:3 238:13 239:1 speaks 83:5 spec 13:3 special 167:19 specialist

140:12 specialized

59:3 specific

168:19 172:15 178:21 179:22 180:3 180:18 specifically

139:19 145:13 159:19 specifies

137:11 speed 82:2,3,4

87:16 89:20 89:21,22 111:21 183:15,15,17 184:8 227:8 227:15,16 229:4 speeds 111:20

183:10 184:11 228:12,13 spike 103:19

103:19,20 split 18:12

34:13 138:15 163:7 183:22 186:1 207:21 spoke54:18 spots76:7,10 square83:14

83:16 84:13 84:20 85:3,5 85:12,14,19 86:1 93:19 94:3 96:9,13 96:17 97:8 97:10,19 102:16,17 154:14 155:2 185:11 200:8 squared 84:13 stability

204:18 stable85:17 staff220:6 stage82:10

184:21 187:4 204:14 206:13 208:12 211:12,13 214:14,17 228:5 staged 172:9

187:4 202:6 205:16 208:6 208:22 209:7 209:19 229:2 230:22 231:2 231:6,12 232:5 stages 177:4

185:2 186:22 187:1,12,13 202:15,17 203:10,17 204:13,13,14 204:17,19,20 205:4,4,12 209:11 214:2 214:14,20 216:1,2 227:4,12 228:6 staging 227:14 stainless 13:1

54:2 65:22 66:2,2 71:11 71:16 72:10 73:5,8 78:19 79:9 stale36:6 stand 29:3 standard 43:5

59:5,6 79:11 89:17 104:10 120:17 141:18,19 160:10 standards5:9

15:10 24:20 32:16 43:4 44:10 45:11 45:14 89:12 89:14 138:1 141:6,12,15 145:1 Starr2:21 5:3

5:3 9:7,9,9 18:8,8 24:16 25:10,18 26:1 27:22 28:16 45:18 53:20,21 55:7,17 61:5 61:5 92:3,21 93:5 95:12 95:17,19 96:1,7,22 97:7,12,21 98:10 101:18 102:15 107:4 111:14 112:12,16 113:17 114:9 114:22 116:7 118:2,17,20 123:14 124:3 124:5 128:22 129:1,2,2,6 130:3 138:2 138:11 144:8 147:10 148:7 148:11 149:13 150:13 151:18 152:6 152:14 153:17 154:1 154:15,18 155:2 158:10 159:20 163:6 183:7,18 184:12 185:22 192:13,22 202:22 203:13,20 204:7 208:4 209:15 210:11 231:21 232:5 start8:19 9:3

38:18 50:22 55:2 56:11 69:12 70:10 77:8,17,22 89:7,22 91:1 110:7 125:21 126:20 129:12 134:16 145:17 150:18 183:19 190:1 194:12 195:13 199:8 222:2 232:7 start-up75:8 started 4:8,13

6:8 72:13 80:6 84:14 123:2 starting 30:15

105:3 120:10 125:20 128:4 199:13 244:1 starts56:13

57:6 67:19 78:3 206:19 Stas3:2

220:17,17 state-wide

17:15 stated 82:22 statement

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 93:22 130:14 176:9 states 99:10

99:14,15 100:3 static 111:22

139:15 142:14,16 143:7 151:7 152:5,19,20 153:1,8 158:16 159:5 159:15 190:19,22 205:8 218:9 statics 91:3,4

91:6 151:20 stating 105:7 statistical 22:2

22:13 statistics

22:16 25:4 175:18 status206:13

220:2 statutory

141:11,18 145:1 stay45:21,22

60:1 144:19 243:7 stays 141:14

150:17 166:6 steel 13:1,8

54:2 65:16 66:7 71:11 73:5,8 78:20 79:9 step 131:21 stepped 6:2 steps 193:8 still 13:7 49:15

69:7 77:2 78:9 87:1 106:12 108:17 120:15 121:5 123:11 133:13 134:20 137:22 152:4 166:3,6 179:8 212:16 238:5 stock 104:15 stop 107:19

113:13 stores208:11 story 199:5

200:3 211:15 straight37:15

67:7 99:9 192:22 193:1 224:17 straightforw...

109:18 116:12 224:14 stranded 48:4 strange

154:14 182:8 strict86:18 Strictly34:15 strong 167:4

176:9 200:2 stuck 102:5 studied 60:7 studies 60:12

108:9 study 100:1

101:1 106:8 106:10 229:15 stuff 10:18

16:19 48:1 51:7 61:7 92:7 95:13 97:22 107:11 114:17 122:22,22 126:6,7 138:6 153:15 157:2 181:15 187:9 207:15 style243:8 sub-mat

126:16 subassembl...

230:11 subject31:17

137:22 230:2 submittals

151:4 such 55:8

167:22 168:1 sudden 123:1 sufficient

178:9 216:3 suggest37:9

80:6 109:17 219:19 221:17 suggested

109:4 113:2 199:2 suggesting

112:5 117:17 196:2 suggestion

93:12 109:2 110:20 141:8 242:21 suggestions

198:2 suggests

197:3 230:6 sulfur73:17

74:14 sum 166:14 summarize

29:17 summarizes 45:9 summary7:13

45:15 131:8 171:13 188:22 summer78:21

79:16 supplemental

6:22 supplied 64:1 supplier 151:1

152:11 157:17 203:17 205:9 205:10 218:9 suppliers

157:8 supply41:19

60:22 61:4 158:21 159:16,21 support84:1 supposed

231:21 sure7:9 10:17

17:21 20:8 24:7 30:6 34:7,20 38:17 48:13 64:17 65:20 65:21,22 66:3 81:3 85:6 89:3 100:3 104:19 159:11 165:21 166:2 166:6 170:21 172:20 173:12 175:10 188:18,20 197:19 209:3 215:8 216:14 221:19 224:8 238:6 surety21:18 surface200:14 surprised

165:7 surveying

91:13 suspect40:2

111:4 switch 77:21

183:14 switching

12:12 195:20 226:22 synch 16:1,7 system 18:7

40:19,22 41:2,20 58:10 92:17 93:3 139:3 150:3,19 154:2 159:21 163:22 183:10,21 203:4 206:3 209:10 227:22 230:20 232:1 systems41:19

59:4 136:1 138:5 139:6 158:20 208:7 209:18 227:7 230:8 232:8 T T 125:1 tab 158:14 table4:9,10 12:15 14:3 27:19,20 83:7 86:4 128:14 137:15 141:1

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 235:5,18 tables30:20 take32:4

50:19 55:11 55:12 80:9 80:10 83:8 110:11 113:10 116:17 117:15 118:14 119:18 130:4 131:3 132:2 132:7,22 134:1,21 138:7 146:10 146:20 155:13 156:8 168:17 170:1 170:2,7 172:11 177:13 195:18 220:18 225:7 taken 62:20,21

82:11 124:21 226:11 takes 32:9

71:21 99:22 100:1 145:11 taking 58:19

91:14 96:8 112:21,21 115:7 116:11 205:22 233:21 talk8:1 10:17 10:22 11:4 11:20 17:3 50:22 57:8 73:19 80:13 86:5 119:13 138:12,14,18 142:4 144:3 145:22 157:18 158:6 170:9,17 175:21 177:16 179:16 208:16 talked 61:6

62:5,6 70:9 75:2,4 88:13 96:1 137:18 150:22 167:16 174:11 175:13 talking 7:18 10:3 24:4 39:8 44:5 46:8 48:1 50:3,20 51:3 55:1 56:10 56:12,14 71:19 76:3 95:1 101:19 102:18 104:2 104:3 108:3 109:13 112:3 112:11 113:8 116:13 125:7 126:1 129:12 145:13 148:17 150:2 163:14 167:18 183:7 198:5 202:16 206:16 210:16 216:6 229:11 234:6 237:14 talks 12:6 tall 51:2 tandem 187:13

236:3 target 174:13 174:16 188:9 task 137:12,12

239:5 TCs 165:20 team 117:7 tear-down 13:16 tear-downs 13:15 15:2 222:12,21,21 tech 238:10

240:22 technical

60:20 technologies

98:11,11 technology 16:10 57:18 89:16 111:17 166:10,11,12 166:13 235:20 Ted 4:3,14 telephone

2:20 3:5 tell 19:4 28:15

65:20,21 66:3 154:17 167:5 173:8 212:1 216:8 tells 128:15 temperate

29:7 temperature

70:6 74:1,8 75:9,22 82:7 82:8 92:18 109:20 111:11 113:3 117:19 127:20,20 128:2 131:6 131:22 168:17 205:9 205:10 209:14 214:20 215:2 218:4,5 227:19 238:20 temperatures

75:16,19 76:12 112:8 116:6 189:5 218:4 ten 211:10 tend 17:17

75:20 76:6 98:13 100:12 155:20 tends 148:20 Tennessee 100:3 tentative8:4 terminals

206:4 terminology 185:6 terms8:7 46:1

80:17 85:9 92:5 110:17 159:1 200:16 213:8 231:8 Terzigni 3:3 133:19 138:22,22 148:8 149:2 149:8,8,18 155:19,20 157:1,6,9,14 158:11 159:11,14 160:15 163:13 test21:21

22:12 25:1 82:19 90:16 137:10,22 142:9,14 189:2 190:17 203:2 205:18 209:10 214:2 214:19,21 243:17 tested 29:22

80:1 139:16 142:11,13 143:5 214:1 testimonies

211:11 testing 16:8

20:6 22:4,5 26:2 65:20 90:12 137:15 tests38:8

79:11,13 142:22 than 14:17,19 19:18 22:20 28:7 34:22 36:18 37:5 38:15 50:13 50:14 54:13 71:13,21 74:12 80:13 81:18 82:1 86:19 89:9 91:6 94:5 97:16 101:4 101:22 111:8 115:7 139:11 139:22 143:9 150:5,6 151:13 152:17 155:10 182:7 189:18 203:5 204:5,17 206:8 207:9 207:13 218:18 thank4:3,5 6:7

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 42:22 71:2 74:21 78:14 80:4 123:4 130:15,15 132:17,20 133:8,21 134:2 135:9 145:15,19 149:11 160:20 166:8 169:21 171:11 181:6 185:19 221:16 243:22 thanks82:13 Tharp3:4 5:6

5:6 24:5 68:14,15 137:8,8 139:8 178:19 179:6,11 180:13 201:5 theirs 173:2 themselves 173:17 Thereupon

244:3 thermal 11:11 12:7 thermostat

227:3 thing4:7 6:17 12:5 13:13 14:10 21:20 29:19 30:2 36:12 38:8 46:9,12 50:8 51:9 77:15 81:11 82:5 82:12,21 97:19 98:22 100:10 104:21 107:5 108:12,14 118:13 120:6 121:20,21 123:15 128:11 130:18 135:2 136:11 137:9 139:18 151:16,18 152:18 154:18 155:19 158:10 191:7 194:10 200:1 208:3 209:15 219:5 238:21 241:14 things 16:7

20:2,10 22:8 22:17 24:13 24:15 49:20 54:10 55:20 58:5 64:13 64:16 70:8 72:14 78:16 81:2 82:20 87:11 89:7 90:9 91:13 93:17 95:10 98:5 101:18 105:19 106:3 107:2,10,13 107:14 108:7 109:4,6,9 112:5 117:8 117:16,17 118:2 134:8 134:20 138:17 154:14 158:19 166:6 171:13 184:7 205:20 208:10 211:17 218:2 218:7,10 221:13 think6:14,20

7:19 8:13,16 9:3 10:17,19 11:2 12:16 13:3 14:12 14:16,20 15:2 16:2,21 22:21 23:1 24:5,6 27:18 28:1 29:17 31:18 33:16 34:5 36:3 40:5 41:18 47:4 56:17 58:2 62:9,11 62:22 63:21 65:15,17 66:18 67:15 68:3 71:9,15 74:6,17 75:5 80:10 81:9 85:22 87:17 87:21 90:10 90:10,15 91:12,21 93:20 101:21 102:12 103:15 104:5 104:6,11 107:4 108:4 110:1,5,11 110:13,17 111:8,10,12 112:4 114:17 116:4 117:4 117:7 119:6 119:10,11,13 119:16 120:1 124:9 125:8 125:19 126:11,12 128:11,14 129:9,11 130:6 132:4 134:14 136:7 137:17 138:11 139:22 140:5 140:21 144:17,19 145:21 152:3 158:6 161:18 163:20 164:6 168:20 171:1 173:4 174:7 175:11 177:18 179:2 179:21 182:20 183:16 184:15 185:12 188:19 192:5 198:14,22 199:17 200:1 200:12 201:17 206:7 206:11,14 208:14 212:16 213:9 214:8,21 215:20 216:4 217:20,22 218:14 219:4 219:17 221:13 223:21 225:13 231:22 236:6 236:7,11 238:10 239:3 242:6,15 thinking 20:1 102:15 116:10 187:14 208:5 213:5 221:6 238:17 third 177:8

202:9 third-level

230:17 thorough 197:4,5 thought26:13

27:22 31:6 44:17 61:14 61:21 88:19 152:15 161:2 174:4 175:17 182:7 221:19 232:6 234:5 thoughts

29:15 46:1 177:15 three46:5

48:14 71:19 113:12,12 171:18 177:4 177:6,9 186:4,12 187:1,5,6 191:10 202:15,16 203:10 207:17 210:1 211:12 216:1 216:2 219:16 227:12,17 228:4 229:19 three-ball

230:10 thrown 8:6 151:13 thumbs 129:21,21,22 130:4,7,10 130:11,12,21 133:9,20,22

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 171:6,8,9 tier36:19 tiered 37:1 tiers58:1 tighter60:16

60:16 time8:2,7,21

8:22 9:17 15:21 16:20 19:7,7 20:9 34:17 35:5 43:11 47:21 54:4 55:14 60:10 68:6 75:15 80:11 81:11 83:1 87:11 95:5 105:6,17 107:22 116:10 119:7 124:11 129:10 134:21 139:21 158:5 169:20 176:17 189:19 196:4 196:6 206:20 213:7 221:7 timeline 15:3 times8:20

26:20 50:13 50:14 69:19 70:7 75:10 75:11,13,18 75:20 76:3 81:9 107:16 113:13 185:9 207:17 209:3 timing 15:22

54:19 Title95:7,8 105:22 today4:4 6:15 7:8 8:3 10:17 57:12 97:22 114:2 137:10 139:2,7 140:10 141:10,19 142:8,16,19 155:14 156:9 161:6 172:18 175:15,19 184:6,8 194:20 195:4 196:18 217:15 221:7 234:15 together 17:5

44:15 121:17 134:22 159:21 177:21 187:2 209:20 240:20 241:19,22 tolerance 188:9 tomorrow9:16 10:2,22 127:6 135:21 144:11 157:2 157:5,10,11 157:22 158:1 158:3,4 178:17 189:20 221:7 221:8 235:10 244:2 ton 114:3 146:13,15 171:17,22 172:3 177:17 181:20 183:4 184:16 190:7 190:9 191:10 193:11,12,21 194:1,3,5 195:3,3,7,18 196:17,20 197:2,3 201:14,20 202:4 206:17 208:2 212:21 225:14 238:2 239:16 ton's 194:2 tone 193:13 tonight 177:14 tonnage232:1

234:22 235:1 tonnages 174:15 tons79:19

92:12 143:10 143:17 172:20 174:10 175:14 176:1 176:7,17 183:19 190:4 190:4,14 200:7 201:13 206:18,20 207:2,3,4,22 208:5 210:8 212:18 216:5 217:1 222:17 222:19 224:1 225:20 226:18 229:1 229:16 230:3 231:11 234:14 238:4 239:5 240:19 240:21 241:6 241:7,11 242:8 took39:17

96:16 104:17 122:14 202:3 tool 201:5 top30:19

50:20 92:19 117:21 181:13,16 196:22 207:10 230:18 235:8 topic 13:12 135:18 143:19 178:15 217:20 topics7:19

220:22 total 42:17

59:1 98:7,7 148:18 152:2 152:18,20 159:5,15 185:10 203:22 207:12 210:22 totally 15:20

55:12 206:3 totals 153:2 touch 220:21 touched 136:5 tough 15:3 156:2 213:3 219:4 tougher 14:19 towards 135:12 155:20 199:18 track 17:8

28:10,11,14 traditional 184:21 traffic 163:22 trailer236:22

237:2 Trane4:18 15:19 25:5 33:14 40:21 57:17 65:4 151:16 transcribe

245:4 transcript

60:19 170:20 245:5 transferred 180:11 transformers

230:12 transition 63:9

219:18 transitioning 134:7 translation

240:11 treat 141:11 175:6 treated 175:12 treatment 141:10 tremendous 114:1 trend 11:18 123:7 trends 176:3 191:8 trickling 84:17 tried 22:21 179:2 181:10 triggered

227:6 trouble43:19 108:15 119:5 197:7 211:22 214:10 truck242:18

242:19 true53:5 161:19

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 175:16 210:4 211:14 237:17 238:15 240:18 245:5 trust30:11

95:18 try29:17 32:2

32:17 63:3 88:16 100:16 101:2 114:16 126:11 129:8 138:15 147:2 155:22 157:1 157:22 159:18 167:4 176:11 195:12 213:20 217:18 221:11,14 223:19 243:4 trying8:20

26:3 34:1 38:19 40:5 75:5 77:10 78:4 93:17 93:17 103:2 111:9 113:17 114:17 126:13 153:12 207:21 211:9 215:9 241:9 242:2 TSL44:9 45:20

46:1,4 TSL444:9 TSL557:15 tube63:13

67:16 68:17 79:2,3 179:7 185:16,17 tubes62:18 63:7,17,19 67:17 79:16 turn 49:4 64:5

96:14 126:9 153:14 turned 126:10 183:1 203:4 211:20 turning 135:3 turns37:13 132:1 169:17 211:15,16 two 14:20,20

21:21 22:12 29:22 46:5 48:10 51:1 53:18 66:1 66:11,11,14 66:16,17 67:4,7,10,11 74:17 97:1 104:6 111:14 112:2 119:8 119:10 120:11,13 134:8 157:7 160:19 171:17 172:15 177:4 181:12 183:10 184:10 185:9 185:9,9,16 185:16,17,18 186:21,22 187:4,12,13 200:9,20 208:12 214:1 214:13,17,20 222:15 223:12,14,17 227:3 232:16 240:2,5,8,13 241:11 242:20 two-speed

89:8 91:2 98:16,22 183:13 184:4 two-stage

209:17 213:17,18 215:5,9 type59:7

74:18 76:4 84:19 130:9 188:22 201:11 226:14,15 types 12:21

53:9 83:6 138:17 typical 158:15 184:2 typically53:22

99:22 100:1 144:4 174:9 179:1 203:20 U U.S237:6 UL 133:17 ultimately38:8

136:7 un-mute78:12 unable 145:7 unanimous

133:11 uncertainties

116:22 uncertainty

225:13 undersized

93:7 understand

15:11 16:4 27:1 41:12 57:10 58:3 58:13,15 101:6 104:2 120:15 144:20 145:21 172:6 185:6 187:8 188:18 195:10 228:21 understandi...

17:17 25:6 42:14 58:17 64:12 77:10 97:13 102:4 179:6 187:3 187:12 217:14 understood

48:4 unfortunately

41:8 61:19 154:7 156:2 unit 14:6 19:12

21:3,12 41:1 41:19 48:8 51:4 54:8,13 54:21 55:5,6 55:7,10,10 55:16 56:3,9 56:13,14 66:19 68:9 73:3 78:22 80:2 81:15 113:22 137:15 148:5 148:18 150:11,18 151:9 154:20 159:22 161:5 161:20,21 162:5,5 163:16,17,21 175:16 182:9 183:9 184:17 184:18 187:12 195:18 196:14 197:22 199:15 203:9 205:2 206:4 207:18 213:1 213:17,21,22 215:5,9 216:17 223:11 226:6 226:17 228:9 228:22 229:6 232:21 239:9 240:7,12 unit's54:20

203:22 unit-size 176:3 UNITARY1:3 unites60:9

233:9 units 14:17

18:9,13,18 18:21 19:2,7 19:8,19 20:1 28:5 39:20 39:20 41:5 54:9 55:3,20 59:2,3 74:18 76:16,20,21 79:13 81:18 81:19,21 82:15 84:21 85:3,4 136:13,16 146:17,18 148:1 154:12 158:17 159:14 163:10,15 165:8,14 167:1 174:2 174:21

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 175:15,15,19 176:21 177:22 178:8 181:9,16 182:1,16,22 184:6,9,16 184:20 186:4 186:10 191:16 197:17 200:8 200:9 202:7 204:10,22 205:5 207:5 208:12 210:13 212:11,14 213:16 217:16 219:14 222:5 223:12 226:3 226:4 227:16 229:11,12 230:10,16 236:18,21 240:2,8,13 242:18 243:11,13 universal

229:9 unless 98:21

129:13 142:11 160:6 182:17,18 215:16 218:12 219:4 unrelated

105:18 update63:4

134:12 updated 35:19

35:22 106:10 updates65:1 upgrade

228:15 upon 64:21 81:4 84:15 92:18 115:6 148:14 171:17 195:17 220:21 222:5 upper28:2,7

49:7 upstairs 80:9 uptake99:7,21 upward 42:7 upwards

152:21 urgent 144:12

144:14 urging221:10 usage28:1

89:6 92:22 use36:3 37:14

78:6,8 79:8 79:17 80:1 82:18 84:9 91:18 98:8 105:16 119:7 121:19 131:8 131:22 138:16 175:18 181:19 191:16 200:22 203:3 205:5 219:7 222:6 223:13 224:19 225:10 227:7 uses 83:16 usually50:19

77:16 95:8 100:16 193:11,12 242:20 utilities73:17

74:13 utility24:13 V VA230:12 valid 160:15

239:3 validate 155:9 value52:8,9 103:6 138:8 138:10 valued45:13 values224:19 vap56:12,12 variability20:6

41:4 variable 109:13 184:8 227:15,16 229:4 231:3 variable-spe...

89:8 111:18 variants 168:15 variation 22:1

22:4 71:14 71:15 218:3 variations

75:19 209:3 varied 181:9

226:16 variety53:9 various32:5

49:2 136:4 172:19 vary74:2

218:4 224:11 VAV 172:9

175:15,16,19 176:1 183:21 184:6,11,18 184:21 185:2 186:8 202:2 202:8,10,12 202:14 203:4 203:15,19 204:11,17 205:3,5,7,15 205:19,22 206:3,21 207:5,22 208:7,20,22 209:7,10,18 209:18,20 211:7,14,22 212:3,11,15 212:18 213:1 213:10,17,21 213:22 214:2 215:5,9,13 215:18 217:9 217:12,12,16 217:18,21 219:14 230:16 231:3 231:14,19 232:19,22 233:10,16,17 233:17 234:2 234:5,13 238:1,3,4,11 238:15,19 239:9,9 240:3,7,12 240:22 241:1 velocity 150:6 150:16,16 ventilation

203:13 218:10,14 venting31:10 venture41:21 version 34:21

53:6 99:15 99:16,17,18 190:22 versions74:18 versus23:18

25:8 44:19 45:2 53:1 54:21 69:8 110:10 131:6 146:11,12 148:4,4 151:10 155:9 209:20 231:12,14 233:2 238:15 241:15 VFD 183:1,14

183:14 227:20,22 229:2 VFDs 186:7,9

227:5 via2:20 3:5 view57:7 133:7 220:22 viewpoint 153:12 VNV 183:20

184:3 volleyball

93:14 Volt227:11 volume36:21

44:14,16 53:7 139:11 140:3 172:9 184:10,22 201:6,11,21 202:6,6 206:20 207:9 208:6 209:7 209:20 210:8 213:4 217:11 229:2 230:22 231:6,6,12 231:12,19 232:5 242:19 volumes210:3 vote 129:16 130:4,19,21

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 132:22 133:15 140:22 144:5 152:13 156:9 213:13 voting 141:2 166:18 W waiting 134:20 waiver 142:8 143:3,3,4,5 walk 188:17 walked 4:5 walking 111:8 walls 147:16 Walmart

208:10 210:9 Waltner3:5

6:4 7:7 133:15 want 7:8 10:17 11:20 20:8 21:14 28:20 29:16 34:6 36:15 38:18 48:8 56:18 58:5,11 61:16 64:2 68:18 81:10 81:16 104:4 105:21 110:14 111:2 113:14 115:4 115:4 118:10 123:22 140:16 144:11 145:17 155:6 156:6,8 159:12,15 160:1 162:17 173:11,12 174:19,20,22 175:8,9 176:18 179:16 181:5 182:6 183:15 185:6 188:20 198:22 201:7 208:3 211:13 215:11,18 218:6 219:22 224:8 234:8 235:11 243:3 wanted 12:2

83:2 101:18 117:2 134:8 134:14 135:17 142:5 216:14 220:18 wanting 72:20

200:16 wants 132:2 178:16 188:1 warehouse

40:11,13,14 warm 64:5

77:20 78:4 warm-up

77:16 warranty54:1 wash 162:1 wasn't21:4

72:19,22 87:22 106:22 147:9 water58:10

60:22 61:4 156:4 watt214:6 wattage 187:18 188:7 188:7 189:1 watts 48:14 way 10:20

22:19 28:10 28:11,14,14 33:22 39:12 56:1 57:8 68:19 83:4 84:5 88:14 93:13 102:5 102:20 104:17 108:2 124:16 126:2 127:8,10,22 147:20 148:2 155:9,16 174:2 175:5 182:19 203:7 212:3,13,16 217:11,11 239:4,13,16 240:9 ways57:3 74:9 156:5 167:5 we'd 4:7 34:12

88:15 139:18 199:1 223:13 224:17 225:8 we're 8:22 10:9 11:22 12:1,3 13:11 14:4 20:9,20 26:8 27:6,12 27:12 34:1,7 35:22 36:12 38:17 40:15 44:5,15 49:12 60:21 63:3 64:22 66:18 69:8 79:15 80:14 82:3 83:14 84:22 86:3 86:22 91:8,9 94:5 96:20 104:10,17 105:7 106:2 106:17 108:3 108:21 109:13 111:15 112:2 112:11 113:8 114:7,19 115:16,17 116:13,22 117:1,3,17 119:3,8,13 120:8,10 122:21,22 125:2,20 126:1 128:16 129:8 130:14 131:21 134:3 134:6,20 137:19 144:17,17 158:2 166:21 167:11 168:10 170:11,22 173:12,20,21 176:5,10 198:6 199:17 205:6 206:10 206:16 207:9 207:21 209:2 210:15 212:2 212:16 221:4 221:5 222:10 223:6,7,8 230:15 232:15 233:19 234:18 241:4 241:9 243:22 244:1 we've7:20 13:3 22:5 35:20 58:1 60:6 62:5,14 74:13 78:20 81:1,7,8 82:5 82:13,20,21 86:4 91:19 93:13,13 95:6 107:3 110:12 112:8 122:20 123:12 126:6 126:17,19 130:6 154:12 163:14 171:14 176:6 176:13 198:3 212:13 217:20 221:1 222:15,19,20 222:20 223:19 226:10,11,12 226:16,16 230:5,8 235:5 237:5 webinar 6:5 webinars 8:6 website 160:10 Wednesday 129:5 133:2 133:5 week82:13,22

83:17 91:20 101:21 127:12 128:8 131:3 135:1 135:3 151:14 week's 83:8 weeks 93:15 113:12 weighs 236:15 weight 83:12

224:19 235:7 235:15 237:9 239:17,20 241:15 weighted

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 83:19 95:20 210:6,7 224:12,22 weighted-av... 189:11 weighting 83:9

83:12 90:2,2 90:8 197:12 197:14 weights

242:12 weird 24:14 welcome

224:18 well-taken 160:20 went 14:1 64:1

86:14,21 93:5 145:4 187:17 Westphalen 11:4 135:13 135:14 136:17 137:4 146:1 148:2 148:21 149:3 152:12 153:10 156:16 159:9 167:16 168:8 168:19 169:10,13,16 171:12 174:1 174:9 175:20 176:1 178:8 178:14 179:1 179:10,15 180:9,16 181:2,12,22 182:4,11,21 185:3,12 186:3,16 187:15 188:21 190:3 190:9,13 192:19 193:7 193:17 194:18 195:10 199:3 200:1,6 202:1 203:9 204:8,21 205:6 206:7 209:9,14 211:5,19 212:22 213:5 213:9,15 214:9,16,22 215:7,16 216:2,7 217:14 218:16 219:9 219:13 229:17 Westphanen

3:6 5:14,14 11:3 62:10 62:21 66:5 66:13 wet 79:2,16 whatever's

229:6 whenever9:10 where 8:15 12:3 13:8 15:15 16:18 17:11 19:2 25:2,13 28:6 29:1 31:15 32:16 34:6 36:19 37:1 40:13 43:4 54:11 56:4 57:5 58:8 59:4 61:10 68:21 69:7 69:19 72:11 74:4 75:16 83:5,6 84:7,8 84:22 85:20 87:8 91:4 92:21 98:12 113:3,19,21 114:2,7 115:18 121:8 121:11 122:20 123:2 126:8 134:12 147:8 154:12 154:17 162:2 162:3 163:20 172:6 173:6 173:20 174:21 178:5 178:20 179:19 186:7 191:12 193:8 193:15 194:5 194:9,19 196:2 198:13 199:14,15 203:3 223:7 226:1 228:4 232:8 238:1 240:7 243:10 where's 57:14

57:15 185:20 whether8:5,22

47:20 48:8 53:14,15 56:2,20 57:8 72:8 84:2,11 86:1 88:4 96:19 102:12 136:9,14 148:9,14 149:16 150:9 150:17 163:5 164:8 168:14 177:1 191:18 191:21 193:19 211:6 218:13 225:7 230:14 233:20,21 236:20 whichever

242:22 white 99:18 Whitwell 3:7

5:7,7 10:15 10:15 18:15 18:16 23:14 33:8 34:10 34:17 35:2,3 36:16,16 37:12 38:11 38:22 39:5 40:3,3 42:10 59:10,10 62:3,3,11 64:11,15 67:14 69:5,6 70:2,4,16,19 71:1,9 72:17 73:4 74:5 76:2,8,19 77:4,13 78:8 140:2,2 142:13,20 143:4,11,13 150:20,21 152:3,8 153:22 157:16,16 158:4 161:18 162:10,13,19 162:22 163:3 163:9 164:5 164:13,17,22 165:10,14,20 166:1,10,15 167:1 171:4 174:4 184:19 185:4,4,19 186:6,14 189:21 190:7 190:11 198:14 199:6 199:11 201:19 205:17 208:22 209:6 210:21 212:2 212:12,20 213:12 214:4 214:13 228:21 229:10,14 230:1,21 231:4,10,18 233:1,5,12 who's 23:15 141:6 148:8 whole 50:8

51:4 54:8,21 55:4 61:11 76:8,9 104:21 107:2 160:17 195:5 219:5 229:15 wholesale 117:17 whose21:12 wider63:15 width 63:8

68:8 Williams 3:8

5:18,18 willing 117:6,6 157:18 Wilson 1:8 windows 105:13 winning 52:12 Winningham

3:9 5:4,4 20:11,16,16 28:18 40:7,7 44:12 45:4

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 51:8,21 53:4 59:6 68:1 75:14,18 125:17 winter79:21 wires 155:16 wish 139:2 170:10 191:22 within 188:11 193:1 199:14 199:15 223:9 won't49:22

80:9 109:12 119:11 134:21 139:15 217:12 wonder41:9

44:17 47:13 47:16 wondering 143:20 words 24:21

45:21 98:5 98:13 102:6 102:19 137:2 192:22 194:18 work55:14

78:15 87:9 95:7,10 102:13 103:9 107:2,11 113:18 118:5 135:20 143:2 143:2 144:4 149:22 172:1 173:3 184:4 214:11 worked 187:11 working 1:5

8:14 36:1 46:3 63:5 88:1,11 113:14 119:3 123:20 159:3 160:2 171:14 217:18 220:19 221:6 works 149:20 175:10 182:20 world 57:4

87:18 156:1 203:3 218:19 240:1 worry 120:5 137:2 worst 194:16 worth 8:17

47:10 114:17 160:11 202:16 210:13,17 wrap 237:13 wraps 45:15 wrong 88:20 107:14 X X 161:5 Xing 3:10 5:20 Xu 3:10 5:20

5:20 xxx 183:20 Y Y 161:6 yeah 9:13 10:6 16:6 23:5,7 34:20 35:2 37:12 40:3 40:12 42:10 43:21 44:21 45:7 48:16 51:3,7 63:14 64:20 70:16 70:19 71:1,9 71:17 72:3 73:19 74:5 76:2 77:13 80:20 86:14 92:16 93:5 94:14 96:5 97:5 98:9,9 99:22 100:7 100:10,16,20 102:18 112:19 114:11,11 124:3,8 128:18 129:2 131:1 134:19 135:8 142:20 143:12,16 144:15,16 145:5,8,19 149:3 152:7 152:16 157:6 158:4 159:9 159:20 163:3 164:5,6,22 165:13 166:1 169:12 175:11 181:6 184:5 186:14 186:16 187:10 190:13 193:9 195:10 198:14 201:8 207:19 212:17 214:13 215:3 228:19 231:10 233:20 238:14 242:12,17 243:3,16,22 year 19:16

21:9 35:4 43:15,15,15 52:7,9 69:20 81:14 120:17 128:16 years21:3,6

52:8 58:22 71:19 94:20 100:2,15 120:3,4,5 139:4,5 163:12 165:9 165:10 yellow99:14 Yep9:21 yet 16:22 17:22 24:10 62:22 81:12 84:19 87:1 127:12 130:7 175:14 221:5 Z Z224:15 Zendah 3:11

5:10,10 178:4,5,12 186:19,20 187:5,7 217:3,3,9 zero43:20

87:7 108:1 111:2 115:18 117:3,9 118:4,14 120:9,10,14 142:13,16 147:13,13 164:20 166:14 197:15 212:14 zero-pressure

42:15 zone60:13 95:1,4 97:6 122:1 238:20 240:8,14 zones 95:4

240:5,12 zoning240:2,5 0 0549:7 1 1 136:22

139:11,22 146:13 183:15 232:11 233:2 233:3 237:20 237:21 240:12,21 1,00043:15

110:12 113:21 1,033 118:7,8 1.25 147:21 1.75 151:21 1:30 124:12,13

124:14,15 1052:1 69:11

74:11 120:3 139:4 170:4 170:7 193:12 193:20 194:1 194:3,3,5 195:3,3,7 196:17,19 197:3 201:14 206:16 207:13,16 210:16 10-ton 207:18 10-year54:1 10.1 172:4,5 10.6 172:4

213:2 10020:8

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 101:15 108:16 118:7 162:14,20 164:21 204:1 241:7 100-percent

189:4 101 37:10 1033 80:13

83:13 11 1:7 99:1 11.1 243:13 11.3243:14 12 192:11

193:20 194:3 223:12 12-and-a-half

41:9 193:13 12:30 80:7

124:11 125 32:11 1341:8 223:12 13.2 223:13 131 32:11 135 182:9

210:1,1 14 15:14 17:21

199:13 14.9214:1,16 15 19:12 21:3

21:6 70:5,6,7 74:11 75:6 126:11,16,16 127:7,8,11 148:4 149:15 150:18 151:7 153:19 158:16 159:14 169:17 170:7 170:11 174:10 176:17 188:5 190:4 191:10 193:21 194:10,10 200:7 202:4 222:17,19 224:1 238:2 238:4 15-minute

170:8 15-ton 114:3

136:15 147:19 168:4 171:21 172:9 172:17 15-year52:1 15th 206:10 16235:19 17 185:8

194:11 17-ton 92:10 17032:11 175,000 16:14 18 11:9 19 199:13 1980 94:17 1995 85:13 1999 165:18 1st7:10 2 2 111:1 115:4

115:7 147:11 147:11,14,15 148:3,6 152:9 154:10 154:21 155:9 169:11 171:16 179:10,11 183:16 190:21 232:11 233:2 233:4 237:21 241:1 2-A 122:1 2-speed 183:8 2,000 150:16 2.5 168:2 2:00 124:12 2058:22 74:12

77:11 92:10 92:12 95:1 120:3 122:15 160:6 162:8 162:10 164:8 164:17 165:3 207:3 208:5 210:3,8 218:20 227:11 235:19 240:16 241:6 242:8 20-and-up

210:4 20-ton 210:13 200 138:4 200,000 52:9 2003 84:16

96:10 106:8 2010 99:13

122:1 2012 84:16,18

99:13 121:8 2013 122:17 2014 106:12 2015 1:7 99:21

245:12 2018 95:5

122:17 2019 95:5

120:17 2020 104:9

123:18 20th 221:18 21.4 185:10 2111 1:8 214-square-i...

185:8 2495:7,9 106:1 185:5 227:3 240210:2,2

241:19 25 93:7 165:12

168:1 189:12 210:8 217:1 25-ton 210:3 25-year 167:12 25055:2 67:2 250,000 14:11 26th 245:12 28th 220:5 29 112:17 290 181:20 2nd 7:10 3 3 115:4 120:5

147:8 169:11 169:11 3-A95:4 122:1 3.2 120:5 3.98 97:2

102:19 103:6 109:3 3:00 9:5,11,20

10:10 3052:8 77:11

86:9,13 87:7 93:8 95:1 96:19 102:22 117:20 121:5 123:16 127:12 148:4 163:12 165:9 165:10 172:3 172:18,20 175:14 176:1 182:20 183:1 183:4,19 184:16 190:14 191:10 201:13 203:4 203:11,21 204:1,3,5 206:17,18 207:6,22 210:3 212:18 212:21 216:5 225:14,20 226:18 229:1 230:3 231:11 240:19,21 241:6,11 30-ton 56:14

126:16 136:15 147:15,19 149:16 150:18 158:17 159:14 168:6 172:1 176:10 177:19 182:11 183:9 184:9 204:22 207:8 208:19 226:8 231:17 30,000242:18 321 13:4 33 101:20

102:7 107:20 108:1 115:15 118:3 120:10 120:16,20 35 83:15

151:12 152:10 155:9 3649:2,8

83:20 86:8 86:13 95:15 36-ton 182:8 39 96:2 4

## Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 4 115:4 168:10

168:11 184:11 4-A95:4 122:4 4.44203:11 4:00 8:21 9:5 4:23 244:4 40 15:14 32:22

122:15 123:16 182:18,19 202:17 203:5 207:2,4,9 208:2 400 181:20 409 13:2,4

79:9 42.8 185:10 4544:16

235:18 45067:5 46/5434:19

37:12 5 545:11,12

60:13 95:1 136:22 143:10,17 168:9 5,00043:15 5.36 97:2

102:18 109:3 5:00 9:4 10:10 5023:2,3

25:19,19 77:11 84:21 84:22 85:4 85:15 96:11 176:7 189:12 50-foot55:6 50/49 37:10 50/50 34:18

35:15,15 37:10 70:14 50/50's 36:14 50043:15 51 32:11 5869:15 70:7 6 652:7 60 108:1

109:21 206:20 220:3 236:15 241:6 242:8 63207:3 65 108:1

109:21 123:15 210:1 66 120:14

183:17 7 770:8 99:2

110:13 151:7 153:19 169:18 7-and-a-half

114:3 7-ton 136:14 7.5 159:14 7032:21 34:12 70/30 34:13 721 168:5 75 86:22

147:22 151:21 189:12 77200:8 8 862:7 100:2

110:13 8:00 9:10,11

9:19 10:10 244:2 80 11:8 18:18 19:20 23:3 24:5,12 25:7 25:11 27:8 27:12 29:20 30:4 33:7 35:9 36:22 38:7 46:22 59:14 69:14 75:2 85:18 95:12,15 96:10 100:2 145:2,2 163:7,8 164:22 210:12 80/20 163:7 80/90 120:18

123:19 80s 61:8 81 11:9 18:19

19:20 23:3 24:1,12 25:8 25:20 27:8 29:20 30:5 32:22 33:8,9 33:10,16 34:12 36:11 36:22 38:7,9 46:4,5 48:14 49:8 59:8,14 59:14 69:8 69:10 70:1,2 70:4,13,15 70:16 75:2,6 81s 35:8 82 12:7,10

18:10,18,22 19:7,12,19 20:1,18 21:4 25:19,21 26:19 27:11 27:13 29:20 33:1 34:11 35:7 44:10 46:5 48:14 49:3,8 59:14 65:6,10,12 66:19 69:7 69:16 70:11 71:12,12 72:11,13 75:2 8327:11,13 8427:11 85055:2 67:5 850,000 55:3 8683:5 89.9 86:16 8C 126:20 9 932:11,22

96:9 9:00 1:9 9:4,4

10:9 90210:12 90.1 60:7 97:3

97:6,15 98:3 98:16,17 99:12 204:16 90.11 204:13 92 11:11 49:3

49:9 59:4 9531:19 81:5

84:15 189:4 9984:16