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 ASRAC

 COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONING

 WORKING GROUP MEETING

 May 11, 2015

 2111 Wilson Boulevard

 9:00 a.m. 
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Edward Bantle

3 James Battaglia

4 John Cymbalsky

5 Pete Cochran

6 Katie Coughlin

7 Adam Darmington

8 Andrew deLaski

9 Paul Doppel

10 Eileen Hoffman

11 Jill Hootman

12 Long Huang

13 Marshall Hunt

14 Richard Lord

15 Michael McCabe

16 Karen Meyers

17 Nick Mislak

18 Greg Rosenquist

19 Harvey Sachs

20 Michael Shows – via telephone

21 Louis Starr

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 Eric Stas

3 Mark Terzigni

4 Rusty Tharp

5 Meg Waltner – via telephone

6 Detlef Westphanen

7 Robert Whitwell

8 Alison Williams

9 Dave Winningham

10 Xing Xu

11 Sami Zendah

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Good morning

3 everyone. This is Ted Bantle from FMCS. I thank

4 you all for meeting with us today, and then for

5 those of you who walked here, thank you for getting

6 here already.

7 So the first thing we'd like to do just

8 to get started is a quick attendance. So we will

9 go around the table and then we'll do the back

10 table and then we'll do the public and finally

11 we'll do the people online. I believe we do have

12 forum, but we will double-check that before we get

13 started.

14 So Ted Bantle with FMCS.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: And Eileen Barkas Hoffman,

16 your co-facilitator, on the record now.

17 And to my left...

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

19 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E California

20 IOU.

21 MR. DOPPLE: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi

22 Electric.
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1 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, HRI.

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.

3 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Lennox

5 International.

6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier.

8 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance

9 Standards Awareness Project.

10 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah of Emerson.

11 MR. COCHRAN: Pete Cochran, DOE.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL.

14 MR. WESTPHANEN: Detlef Westphanen,

15 Navigant Consulting.

16 MR. DARMINGTON: Adam Darmington,

17 Navigant.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, LBNL.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, LBNL.

20 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant.

21 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, Ingersoll

22 Rand.
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1 MR. BANTLE: Let it be reported that

2 Karen Meyers is here and has stepped out for a call

3 or something.

4 MALE SPEAKER: We also have Meg Waltner

5 and Michael Shows on the webinar. So that gives us

6 our forum based on those numbers.

7 MR. BANTLE: Thank you. Any questions

8 before we get started? I know we did send out the

9 ground rules on the break.

10 Any questions on the ground rules? Any

11 comments?

12 MALE SPEAKER: Was (inaudible) considered

13 in the ground rules?

14 MALE SPEAKER: I think it will be as of

15 today.

16 MR. deLASKI: I just skimmed them. I did

17 notice one thing, this is Andrew, is that it says

18 that this result in a NOPR or would result in a

19 NOPR.

20 I think at the last meeting we had

21 acknowledged there already is a NOPR, so what this

22 would result in is potentially a supplemental
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1 (inaudible) or potentially even a final rule,

2 (inaudible). So that just caught my eye something

3 is not consistent with our conversation.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: We can make that change.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll make that edit.

6 Also, I sent around the alternates' list as an

7 attachment to the ground rules and Meg Waltner has

8 today included an alternate for her, so I just want

9 to make sure everybody knows that since Meg will

10 not be here June 1st and 2nd, Alex Hilbrand will be

11 her alternate, just so that everybody knows.

12 So about here, we have the (inaudible)

13 summary slide for the ground rules. Andrew pointed

14 out one issue we'll need to fix.

15 Anybody else or do you author the ground

16 rules?

17 (No response.)

18 Then the next slide is talking about the

19 topics we plan to cover. I think we already know

20 what we need to do here. We've gone back after the

21 last set of meetings and sharpened our pencils a

22 little bit. We also set aside the first part of
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1 this meeting to talk about the furnaces part of the

2 rule. That didn't get much attention last time, so

3 that's what we'll kick off with today.

4 Here's our tentative schedule for our

5 meeting dates. We did discuss whether or not to

6 have some webinars thrown in. I know we didn't get

7 to that last time in terms of scheduling

8 (inaudible), but again as we go, we can pencil

9 those in at (inaudible).

10 Any questions about the schedules?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Are these going to be

12 provided to us somehow with a SharePoint?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Or email. I think the

14 email's been working better for everybody, so...

15 We have a small enough group where I

16 think going through all the SharePoint hoopla might

17 not be worth it, so we'll get this out to

18 everybody.

19 MR. deLASKI: Did we decide on start and

20 end times? I'm just trying to book flights. I know

21 Jill had asked for a 4:00 p.m. end time and -- on

22 the second time and whether we're going to do that
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1 or not.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We discussed that a

3 little bit. I think the initial plan was to start

4 doing 9:00 to 5:00 the first day and then a 9:00 to

5 3:00 or 4:00, depending what the group feels they

6 can do. I open to anything. I'm local.

7 MR. STARR: Why don't --

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Your name, please.

9 MR. STARR: Oh, Louis Starr. How about

10 8:00 for the second day to whenever?

11 MALE SPEAKER: 8:00 to 3:00; is that

12 good?

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that would be

14 good.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Does that include

16 tomorrow? Everyone's got to go through Roslin no

17 matter what time.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can we do consensus --

19 let's see we have a consensus on that. 8:00 to

20 3:00 for the second date?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yep.

22 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible sentence.)
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Although, remember

2 tomorrow we are over in Roslin.

3 (Simultaneous talking.)

4 MS. HOOTMAN: But the future meetings

5 were all here; right?

6 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we'll --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm getting them confused

8 with...

9 MR. BANTLE: So we're going to do 9:00 to

10 5:00, 8:00 to 3:00.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Anything else, process,

12 procedures, questions before we fire up the

13 (inaudible)?

14 Calling Adam up to the podiuma --

15 MR. WHITWELL: John, sorry, Bob Whitwell.

16 So we have Dick here -- Dick Lord here

17 today, so I think we want to make sure that we talk

18 about the building modeling stuff.

19 MALE SPEAKER: I think the furnace will

20 be pretty quick and we'll get that out of the way.

21 MR. LORD: I can probably make it

22 tomorrow afternoon. I have to give this talk in
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1 the morning.

2 MALE SPEAKER: I think we'll (inaudible.)

3 MR. WESTPHANEN: Good morning. Adam

4 Westphalen from Navigant. I'll talk through some

5 of the commercial furnace analysis and issues.

6 Just a quick refresher, (inaudible),

7 engineering analysis the assumptions were that the

8 primary (inaudible) options to go from baseline 80

9 percent for more efficiency to 81 and 18 percent

10 would be an increase (inaudible) service area. And

11 then for next 92 percent thermal efficiency, you

12 would add a secondary (inaudible).

13 Just another quick refresher: These were

14 the result of engineering analysis for the gas fire

15 commercial furnaces (inaudible), so you can see

16 it's relatively flat across (inaudible) levels and

17 then shoots up to go to condensing there. Oil/fire

18 similar trend (speaking under breath).

19 So I guess this brings us to some sort of

20 need of (inaudible) we want to talk about the

21 engineering. We got a lot of really good comments

22 back in response to the NOPR. So right now we're
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1 considering the analysis changes that we're going

2 to making. I just wanted to present some of these

3 comments and where we're at right now for the

4 group.

5 So the first thing, first quote on the

6 side, talks about the (inaudible) material, and

7 this is key, especially at 82 percent thermal

8 efficiency. A lot of feedback we got was to

9 maintain the reliability, durability of the current

10 designs, 82 percent would have to be designed to

11 handle some condensate. So that would include

12 changing (inaudible) materials, possibly switching

13 out the inducer fan and possible including some

14 condensate management components.

15 So that's currently on the table for the

16 engineering analysis. I think we are assessing

17 that and looking at potentially including more

18 corrosion-resistant materials.

19 So if there's agreement that that should

20 be implemented, some key questions that I kind of

21 had were more for manufacturers, are what types of

22 corrosion-resistant material, like exactly what
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1 grades of stainless steel are we getting into;

2 would 409 do it?

3 I think we've seen in some spec sheets

4 that 409 is an option and 321 is an option. What

5 percentage of models would need that; would that be

6 implemented on every single model that you guys

7 offer or would you potentially still sell the

8 aluminized steel for installations where

9 condensation is not going to be an issue?

10 So those are some of the questions that

11 we're kind of grappling with right now, if anyone

12 cares to (inaudible) topic.

13 Then the next thing on the slide --

14 another big issue was for the NOPR analysis when we

15 did the tear-downs we didn't observe -- well, we

16 observed in the particular tear-down models we

17 looked at there would be enough space to expand the

18 heat exchanger without having to expand the overall

19 cabinet size.

20 We got a lot of comments back that for

21 some manufacturers this is not the case and we had

22 some helpful photos that showed that the heat
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1 exchanger went right up the edge of the (inaudible)

2 would need to be expanded.

3 So that's something that's on the table

4 that we're also considering. The only questions

5 there would be is enough to assume the cabinet

6 expands in size or is it limited in size unit to

7 the current (inaudible) situations to the current

8 sizes and then (inaudible) manufacturer (inaudible)

9 alternate configurations.

10 And then the last thing, so we looked

11 primarily at the representative capacity 250,000

12 BTU per hour. I think at the public meeting or so,

13 and also in the comments, there were some

14 discussion about the differences for larger

15 furnaces because the range goes up over a million.

16 I think we got some feedback that those larger

17 units can be significantly indifferent than the

18 representative capacity.

19 So that one's a little bit tougher than

20 the other two. I think the other two might be easy

21 enough for us to sort of do some modeling, can

22 figure out how to do it.
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1 The last one, it would be great if we did

2 these tear-downs of larger sizes, but I think given

3 the timeline, it's going to be tough. So we would

4 ask for it, but really they're about how the prices

5 -- how the cost (inaudible) as we go.

6 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt of Pacific Gas

7 and Electric.

8 One of my concerns is in California we

9 have the issue of air pollution, so we have the NOx

10 standards coming in. I'm glad, Bob, you helped me

11 understand more about this.

12 As a huge public policy issue, is there

13 an impact of the NOx requirements dropping from the

14 40 to 14 or something on this issue? This could be

15 a situation where we get a collision of policy

16 needs and collision of product design.

17 Is there anything on that or does anyone

18 know?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane.

20 Well, one, I totally agree. First of

21 all, they're not coincided at the same time, so we

22 have double development and timing. Needs are not
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1 at all in synch, so -- of course, California and

2 the NOx don't think about that. They don't

3 consider that in anything in what they're having to

4 do with containment. I understand what their needs

5 for containment.

6 But, yeah, it's redesigned for both

7 things, so they're not in synch. You have to do

8 all the same kind of testing that you have to do

9 for a new heat exchanger for what might possibly be

10 the technology that will get us to the lower --

11 Now this right now, Marshall, remember

12 that that's only at -- hitting us on this very

13 lower end of this, because right now they're at

14 175,000 BTUs and -- so it only covers really here

15 at this very, very low end, but they're discussing

16 -- and at least I've been in calls with them --

17 they're discussing programs for this size as well.

18 Where they'll land on, what nanograms per

19 joule, and all that kind of stuff, I don't know,

20 because it's the first time that they would cover

21 this kind of commercial (inaudible). I don't think

22 they even know yet is kind of what I was getting
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1 from the.

2 MR. HUNT: Right. So I would appreciate

3 any input you guys have with the people I can talk

4 to get more information. We need somehow to put

5 these together, (inaudible).

6 MS. HOOTMAN: More information from?

7 MR. HUNT: Manufacturers who are dealing

8 with your kind of experts, and I'll have to track

9 down our quality management -- their quality

10 management (inaudible) people.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I'd like to know where

12 they're going to go.

13 MR. deLASKI: Just a quick question for

14 clarification, this is Andrew, is it -- are they

15 state-wide requirements or are they by AQMD?

16 MALE SPEAKER: By AQMD is my

17 understanding, although they tend to roll up and --

18 MR. deLASKI: But beginning in the South

19 coast.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right now san Joaquin and

21 South coast are for sure going to the 14 nanograms

22 per joule. Have not seen Bay area yet, but San
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1 Joaquin --

2 MALE SPEAKER: The frequency of gas packs

3 -- I mean, is --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Just as high as the nation,

5 very high, very high.

6 MALE SPEAKER: That's our dominant

7 heating system for commercial.

8 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr again.

9 So I notice some of the larger units are kind of

10 already at 82 percent. Is there a -- this is

11 probably more for Navigant, whatever.

12 What's the split of the market, what

13 percentage units are already at that based on class

14 size?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Louis, this is Bob

16 Whitwell.

17 If you look at the AHRI (phonetic)

18 directory, there are no units at 82 percent, 80 and

19 81.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Approximately half the

21 units of --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I have nothing at 82.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: So this is right at the

2 point where there's no units that are that size.

3 MALE SPEAKER: We did the NOPR analysis

4 months ago. I can't even tell you how long, the

5 review process, it's been a while.

6 When we looked at the market previously,

7 there were units at 82 at that time. In the time

8 since then, those units have either been

9 discontinued our have been...

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

11 So from the ARHI directory, there was an

12 82 unit in the directory for 15?

13 MALE SPEAKER: As far back (inaudible) to

14 at least --

15 MALE SPEAKER: So it was just dropped in

16 the last year or so. This is more of rating in my

17 mind, and everyone please join -- it's more of a

18 rating issue than a performance issue. So the

19 units are performing at 82. They're being rated at

20 80 and 81.

21 MALE SPEAKER: It's funny, because I was

22 probably looking at some old literature and I was
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1 thinking well, these units are 82, but that makes

2 sense now that (inaudible) measuring things and

3 it's --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a rating and

5 certification issue.

6 MALE SPEAKER: And a testing variability.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Exactly. Because of

8 certification, we want to make sure that 100

9 percent of the time we're going to pass. Now

10 you're putting more conservativeness in things.

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: John, I guess from your

12 perspective, it may a rating issue, but we don't

13 agree with that.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can you introduce

15 yourself?

16 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham

17 from Lennox.

18 If you have a -- you have to be in the 82

19 percent per carrier, you're going to be somewhere

20 above that and that is the area we're going to run

21 into, condensing corrosion. So it's not a rating

22 issue, it's a real performance issue and
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1 reliability issue.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Jonathan (inaudible).

3 But that unit was available for 15 years

4 at 82, now it's not. So it wasn't an issue

5 previously, or was it? It was in the directory for

6 15 years, so what changed to make it not an issue?

7 I'm not looking at you, I'm looking at (inaudible)

8 right now.

9 So something changed in the last year in

10 a half. We can hypothesize what that was, but --

11 MR. deLASKI: It's a matter of public

12 record whose unit it was; right? I mean, it was in

13 the directory.

14 MALE SPEAKER: I just didn't want to call

15 anybody out.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Literally it has been

18 re-rated because of surety to pass end

19 certification.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. One thing has

21 changed is a requirement to rate -- to test two

22 samples of every basic model. So if you have any
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1 variation there, you have to rate based on this

2 statistical calculation, so that can bring the

3 rating down.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: On the testing variation

5 we've seen in the testing lab?

6 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John for DOE.

8 So none of those things were problem in

9 the AHRI certification, it's just been the DOE

10 certification? It's just for my own benefit.

11 MALE SPEAKER: There was in the

12 requirement to test a minimum of two samples to do

13 a statistical calculation for the AHRI rating.

14 MR. DOPPLE: It's more the issue -- this

15 is Paul Dopple with Mitsubishi.

16 It's more the issue of the statistics

17 that are required by DOE that cause things to be

18 good?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: We are way more

20 conservative than we would be with AHRI.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Rusty, I think you tried

22 to say you recall one of our prior conversations,
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1 too, of our informal conversations was -- I think

2 you said a moment ago that the market is about 50

3 percent at 80 and 50 percent at 81, and I see

4 nodding from others that that's about --

5 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, based on the --

6 based on the model count.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, based on the model

8 count.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Based on the model count.

10 MALE SPEAKER: So the model count is

11 that.

12 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I don't

13 know this gentleman. Are your Robert or --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes.

15 THE COURT REPORTER: Who's Charlie?

16 MALE SPEAKER: Charlie's not here.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there, this is John

18 from DOE, any idea of the shipments versus the

19 models (speaking under breath)?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Just for furnaces?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Marshall may know better

22 (inaudible). Aren't there some rebates available
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1 at 81 percent?

2 MALE SPEAKER: Not in California that I

3 know of, maybe --

4 (Simultaneous talking.)

5 MR. THARP: I think somewhere I -- 80

6 percent (inaudible) I think something may be

7 driving that. I'm pretty sure it is at least on the

8 residential side.

9 If there's some nuances like that that

10 just doesn't make sense but yet there's a small

11 increase that -- so, for example, you would get a

12 rebate at 81 percent but not a rebate at 80. So

13 there are some things like that's utility -- and

14 driven that cause manufacturers to do some weird

15 things with ratings.

16 MR. STARR: So I have a question. So it

17 sounds like they're changing the -- how the ratings

18 are done, that basically means now. What's

19 happening with that equipment that instead of -- at

20 the lower standards are they having to redesign for

21 that to -- I mean, in other words they essentially

22 -- it's the same market it was before or after the
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1 test procedures to change, it seems like it would

2 move some of that market down to where it's not

3 really meeting the ratings and doing the same

4 amount of statistics. See what I'm saying?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane.

6 I guess I'm not understanding, Louis. Are

7 you asking at 80 percent what would we have to do

8 versus 81 as far as development? Both of those

9 would have to be developed.

10 MR. STARR: Right -- well, right now the

11 requirement's 80 percent; is that right?

12 So essentially they (inaudible) DOE

13 regulations and made it to where you have to be a

14 little more conservative in your estimates, which

15 means there must be some equipment models out there

16 you're having to redesign?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

18 MR. STARR: So is that just -- I mean, if

19 50 percent of the market was 82 and more, and 50

20 percent of the market was 81 or less, so that --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: There was nothing at 82,

22 except for that --
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1 MR. STARR: Well, I meant with the old

2 testing regiment, it was at a lower level. So I'm

3 just trying to figure out there must be someone out

4 there redesigning that had (inaudible) equipment

5 and -- is that happening?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I can only speak for

7 ourselves. Yes, we are redesigning, mostly airflow

8 passing and we're -- because airflow models have

9 also changed in the meantime.

10 MR. deLASKI: Another follow-up question

11 I had also relates back to an earlier conversation

12 we had in one of our pre-meetings.

13 I thought one of the manufactuers, and I

14 don't remember who it was, but hat -- the issue

15 with the need for -- to mitigate for condensation,

16 the materials that can handle condensation, is

17 (inaudible) insulation. So you asked the question,

18 so what's the incident rate?

19 So 82 percent may be that that's going to

20 be fine sometimes but not fine other times,

21 depending on the climate which you're installing

22 the product.
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1 So if someone could help me understand

2 that, that would be helpful.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not just climate, it's

4 airflow in that -- in that situation as well, what

5 kind of -- are they at the low-end of the range of

6 the airflow required? I mean, we're designing

7 these heat exchangers for midpoint of range.

8 So at 80 or 81, that's your midpoint of

9 the range. That means there's something above it

10 and something below it. And the something up above

11 it definitely goes into the 82, 83, 84 percent. 

12 When we we're at 80, yes, we're -- there's probably

13 even cases right then that you're at 82 and 83. 

14 Less because it's on the far -- far side of the

15 range, midpoint of the range, but now that you made

16 that decline closer, there's a lot more

17 applications that would fall in there.

18 I mean, in my public comments I think I

19 had a table attached, if they can pull them up.

20 It's a generic table that almost anybody would have

21 on gas.

22 MR. STARR: I have a thought, (inaudible)
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1 or not, but if you think about the gas usage, if

2 you have -- say you -- the upper end's probably

3 easier to get to the efficiency ratings, but the

4 lower end's more of a problem. It's a gas issue. 

5 More units are sold or used gas at the higher end.

6 Maybe you could do something where the lower end

7 has a lower limit than the upper end.

8 It keeps from doing less redesign

9 (inaudible), but you get the savings.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no way to track

11 that. There is no way to track that in sales. It

12 leaves our ship dock. I don't get -- what all the

13 conditions are of all those buildings, I have no

14 way of knowing that. So there's no way to track

15 it, I can't tell you that.

16 MR. STARR: Just a sense, though.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: I really don't.

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

19 Lennox.

20 We build a product that we want to be

21 reliable regardless of the installation and we

22 build it according -- as Jill said, once you build
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1 it, you don't necessarily know where that product

2 is going to go. So even if you build it -- design

3 and build a product that will stand up to the

4 riggers of the installation map that you

5 (inaudible).

6 Most of these products have outside air

7 requirements that even in temperate climates see

8 lower inlet conditions to the heat exchanger, which

9 causes condensation.

10 So when you have those fresh air

11 requirements that we do not see in residential that

12 you do see in commercial at those lower ambient

13 conditions, that's were you run into condensation.

14 MR. DARMINGTON: If there are no further

15 thoughts on these points, that's it for me...

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I just want

17 to try and summarize what I think I've heard,

18 because I might have been mistaken.

19 First thing is that products formally

20 rated at 82 have been derated to 80 or 81 in part

21 to preserve the safety factor -- on the DOE

22 certification, it requires two samples to be tested
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1 instead of one.

2 The second thing I've heard is that

3 ripple down has been redesigned for products that

4 have historically been rated at 80 and perhaps some

5 that have been historically rated at 81 to make

6 sure you have the same comfort factor or safety

7 factor with the new certification requirements.

8 Is that about it, Jill?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct from my

10 perspective.

11 MR. SACHS: I trust you mostly.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to continue

14 with the (inaudible) furnace analysis. This is

15 what I'm going to be starting at (speaking under

16 breath), so this is just a review of the --

17 something hopefully I've seen before.

18 (Paper rumbling over speaker.)

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: (Inaudible) or top

20 tables for gas and the bottom is for oil.

21 Perhaps the place you should be looking

22 at first is just those average LCC savings. You
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1 can see that for all the efficiency levels

2 analyzed, they were positive. The key part of this

3 is the results are part of (inaudible) buildings

4 with net costs. You can see how that is extremely

5 low until you get to condensity level...

6 I'm just going to move on. I thought it

7 would be to just go over the fact that we are

8 (inaudible) details on the installation costs. So

9 there are basic installation costs, condensating

10 (inaudible) installation costs, and venting

11 installation costs. Each one of those has

12 (inaudible) details on how much those costs and how

13 much those are to install.

14 Again, most of the information is coming

15 from our (inaudible) where they have cost data.

16 There is some information being pulled (speaking

17 under breath), so subject area of experts.

18 I think it's also important to note that

19 installation location, that was estimated that 95

20 percent of the gas (inaudible) were outdoors, five

21 percent indoors.

22 (Coughing.)
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1 Again, more details. This is what's

2 important to try to get the (inaudible) of removal

3 correct, what it would cost out, how much it would

4 take to (speaking under breath).

5 So you can see how the various

6 installation costs, how often they were applied to

7 an installation, and what the costs were.

8 So the last column is perhaps what you

9 should focus on, because that takes it to locality.

10 The frequency each of these were implied, again

11 170, 131, 51, 125, and $9. So those were all costs

12 on average that were added to the cost of (speaking

13 under breath).

14 This looks at the -- what we call the

15 basic case deficiency distribution or distribution

16 where we don't have any standards (speaking under

17 breath) is to try to get this right so we don't

18 overestimate the facts of buildings consumed that

19 are going to be impacted by the (inaudible) and/or

20 gas-fired equipment. For the outdoor installation,

21 you can see 70 percent there was estimated to be at

22 the baseline level, 40 percent and 81 percent, 9
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1 percent at 82, and (inaudible).

2 A little bit different fractions there

3 for the indoor installations so that you can also

4 see the oil there.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

6 So based on the recent re-rating, I

7 assume that nine would go to the 80?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Probably 81. I would

9 expect to (inaudible) to the 81.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the 81.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Speaking for the ones that

12 I said I know were me and I'm not all nine of

13 those, nor do I have any indoors.

14 Jill from Trane.

15 Speaking for those models they were

16 de-rated to 81 percent. I think there are about

17 four or five maybe of that nine.

18 MR. deLASKI: That's percentage.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is market share

20 from the models, that nine --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It makes no sense to me.

22 (Speaking under breath) that way we don't do it.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: That's why we're trying to

2 get the shipment --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So I have no indoor

4 models, so I can't speak for --

5 MALE SPEAKER: For the outdoor, I think

6 that's where the action is here. So I just want to

7 make sure if we go make this change, we're going to

8 move -- no matter what we do to our report that

9 night (speaking under breath).

10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. From my

11 perspective it should go to the -- the 82 would go

12 to 81. I don't know about that 70, so then we'd

13 have a 70/30 split roughly; right? So that's based

14 on -- what's that based on?

15 MALE SPEAKER: Strictly an AHRI directory

16 --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Because I -- last time I

18 checked it was very close to 50/50. I had it at

19 46/54, so...

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm not sure which

21 version of the directory this was pulled from, but

22 perhaps it was a prior -- an earlier one than the
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1 one (inaudible).

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, what I looked at --

3 This is Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

4 What I looked at was earlier this year

5 around the time of the NOPR.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

7 So besides the 82 re-rating, I may have

8 missed this earlier, did a lot of the 81s get

9 re-rated to 80?

10 MALE SPEAKER: None in my case, but I

11 can't speak for others.

12 MALE SPEAKER: John, all of our products

13 are rated (inaudible), so (speaking under breath).

14 MALE SPEAKER: I'm hearing more of a

15 50/50 -- 50/50 might be more.

16 MALE SPEAKER: Should be more

17 representative.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we ask that the

19 analysis be updated with the latest AHRI directory

20 information? I know we've done some changes, but I

21 don't know the latest scope of them. The

22 directory's updated everyday. So since we're in
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1 the middle of this working group --

2 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen.

3 I think we should use the latest.

4 MALE SPEAKER: We would regardless,

5 right, we would do that. Because as the guys were

6 saying earlier, this is a pretty stale analysis

7 based on how long it is in review.

8 I guess the point I would make is that

9 the problem we always have is going from models in

10 the directory to market share, so you can have a

11 lot of models at 81 but not sell a lot of them.

12 So that's the kind of thing we're looking

13 for from either AHRI or manufactuers is to get that

14 mapping. If 50/50's the right answer, I'm okay

15 with that. I mean, I just want to --

16 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

17 Carrier.

18 On the gas side it's different than it is

19 on the air conditioning side where we would tier

20 based on efficiency, so there you see a lot of the

21 volume at the lower efficiency and then less as you

22 go up. On the gas side between 80 and 81, it's
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1 really not tiered. It's just where the -- you

2 might have a design and you're covering different

3 gas heats with the same heat exchange or designs,

4 so you're higher gas heat is going to be lower

5 efficiency than the lower gas heat that you're

6 using with the same heat exchangers or in this end

7 cabinet. I would expect the shipments to be pretty

8 similar match to the models.

9 MALE SPEAKER: So I'm going to suggest to

10 re-run -- re-run with 50/50 or I guess 50/49 of 101

11 of this chart?

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, or 46/54, whatever

13 it turns out to be...

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just use the models

15 straight up?

16 MALE SPEAKER: That would be my

17 recommendations.

18 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew.

19 It makes sense to me, too. I'm just

20 going back to the manufacturer production chart

21 that was earlier. And the difference in the

22 manufacturer production cost is (inaudible)
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1 showing, so --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: We would disagree with that

3 --

4 MR. deLASKI: What I was hearing Bob say

5 -- what I'm hearing Bob say is that you design a

6 furnace and your shooting for (inaudible) but you

7 might -- you get 80 or 81, depending on how the

8 thing ultimately tests out. But you maybe weren't

9 even designed for 81, you were designed for a

10 compliant product.

11 MR. WHITWELL: We design for -- to

12 minimize the complexity at our manufacture and

13 operation. So when you design a range of heat sizes

14 for a given chasse size, the low heat could be

15 higher efficiency than the high heat.

16 So we really designed to be at -- make

17 sure that we're not below the minimum, but we don't

18 want to be so high that we start condensing.

19 MR. deLASKI: You're not trying to design

20 good, better, best; hey, this one's a point better

21 --

22 MR. WHITWELL: That's correct.
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1 MR. deLASKI: I'm going to earn a margin

2 on it, I'm going to --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct.

4 MR. deLASKI: -- which one can see the --

5 MR. WHITWELL: That's correct.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Because their customers

7 would say there's no payback --

8 (Simultaneous talking.)

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Are these all certified

10 to DOE now?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MALE SPEAKER: Everything -- all the way

13 --

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: We could check what we

15 have and see what we have.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Remember, we

17 took away the penalty for being too good. I have a

18 (inaudible) question about sort of scope.

19 Roughly what's the number of indoor

20 units, fraction of indoor units, on the gas side

21 relevant to the gas packs?

22 MALE SPEAKER: Did you ever hear --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't participate in it,

2 but I would suspect it's small.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Bob Whitwell,

4 Carrier. We don't have any indoors either.

5 MALE SPEAKER: I'm trying to think of an

6 application for --

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham

8 of Lennox.

9 We do produce it. It is very small,

10 churches, sometimes (speaking under breath)

11 warehouse --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I was going to say, a

13 warehouse where you get something cooled inside of

14 a warehouse.

15 MALE SPEAKER: We're competing with the

16 (inaudible)?

17 MALE SPEAKER: Not really.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Not really, because an

19 associated cooling system is going with it;

20 correct?

21 Jill Hootman, Trane.

22 So the associated cooling system is going
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1 with it and then unit heaters doesn't have the

2 cooling system?

3 MR. SACHS: Now, from my perspective then

4 of concern with energy savings, the variability of

5 the indoor units just don't add up in (speaking

6 under breath). No product, no energy.

7 MALE SPEAKER: So, Greg, can we go back

8 to Slide 13? Unfortunately I don't have any data

9 on this, but I just wonder about the 12-and-a-half

10 percent assumption for applying neutralizers to

11 condensate.

12 My understand -- we don't participate in

13 condensing gas furnaces on the commercial side, but

14 what I have heard is that many building codes don't

15 allow the condensate to be drained into the

16 sanitary sewer.

17 So given that if that's the case, then I

18 think we would see a much higher percentage of

19 systems or unit supply that would have to have the

20 neutralizing system.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to venture to

22 guess.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: You're more involved with

2 building codes as far as what percentage?

3 MR. LORD: I never checked into that. We

4 have to go -- it's probably all concurrently IMC

5 and IDC.

6 MALE SPEAKER: That's something we can

7 easily adjust upward. Again, that's just going to

8 make the condensing level look that much less

9 attractive.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it may not be a big

11 issue, just...

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: I agree...

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. My

14 understanding is condensate neutralizer is a

15 zero-pressure, little bucket of (inaudible). It's a

16 little bit of maintenance costs, little bit of

17 capital costs. But on a scale of total (inaudible)

18 in the condense --

19 MALE SPEAKER: That's right, Harvey. It's

20 not -- that was my comment. It's not a big issue

21 probably in the big picture; right?

22 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). Thank you.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: So in leaving this slide

2 with the base case efficiency distribution is

3 showing how that distribution is affected by the

4 standards. It's a simple rollout where the national

5 standard of the market share below that (inaudible)

6 analyzing just rolls up to that particular level.

7 Then for the base case, the chart on the

8 right, shows how market shares are changing

9 (inaudible) analysis that was considered. I can

10 say in the base case, there's very, very little

11 change over that time frame.

12 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey again.

13 Can a question scaled are those shipments in

14 commercial oil (inaudible) furnaces in the range of

15 1,000 a year, 500 a year, or 5,000 a year?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I hope this graph

17 answers that question. I mean, it --

18 MALE SPEAKER: My eyes are old and have

19 some trouble (inaudible), but it sounds like it's

20 approaching zero?

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it's small. It's

22 very small. What I'm showing here on the
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1 shipments, historical and (inaudible) of the

2 analysis for both gas and oil. In the base case,

3 there's a case (speaking under breath).

4 So just give me an idea of the number of

5 shipments we're talking about. It's important

6 obviously before getting to the national energy

7 savings (inaudible) first of all showing you that

8 the (inaudible) was considered in the proposed

9 rule. TSL4 was an actual TSL that was chosen as the

10 proposed set of standards, 82 percent for both gas

11 and oil.

12 MR. WINNINGHAM: Greg, this Dave with

13 Lennox.

14 Go back to your volume slide. In the

15 commercial AC rule, which we're combing together

16 here, they showed a 45 percent decline in volume,

17 so I just wonder what the thought process is since

18 the majority of these products are one product how

19 you could show a dramatic (inaudible) versus

20 commercial AC which showed a dramatic decline.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, the analyses were

22 done independent of each other without
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1 consideration of what was going on on the AC side

2 versus the gas. So that's how it's -- that's why

3 you see that.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Again, this Dave with

5 Lennox.

6 We'll be correcting that going forward?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, they

8 should be using same shipments (inaudible).

9 Again, this summarizes the national

10 energy savings at National (inaudible) Rally. For

11 the proposed standards, it's a little over .5

12 quads; .5 quads (speaking under breath) energy

13 savings. Then you see that person valued somewhere

14 over a billion dollars for the proposed standards.

15 That wraps up the summary of what was

16 done for that proposed rule. (Inaudible) what the

17 analysis did show.

18 MR. STARR: It sounds like there's going

19 to be some readjusting of the analysis. Would the

20 TSL levels change for oil and gas or would those

21 stay -- in other words if the gas is shifting down,

22 right, would the oil stay the same or what's the
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1 thoughts on that in terms of the TSL levels?

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: I've been looking for

3 feedback from this working group for that. You can

4 see that TSL, one's 81 and then there's a

5 combination of 81 and 82 for two and three.

6 So I mean, there's a limited number of

7 combinations we could analyze --

8 (Simultaneous talking.)

9 MALE SPEAKER: One thing to actually may

10 good to hear from the manufacturer is the same

11 problem that they're having with gas certification,

12 probably the same thing as oil certification

13 requirements, I'm guess that --

14 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's not necessarily the

15 same issue because for the oil or for the indoor

16 products, the corrosion issue isn't necessarily the

17 same issue, although we weren't ordering it like

18 that.

19 Probably one of the key issues here is

20 the investment of the (inaudible). Because

21 speaking for ourselves, all of our current products

22 are rated at 80 percent. Obviously, there is a
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1 significant design effort to increase the

2 efficiency of those. As you've seen, it's a very

3 small portion of the market, so it's kind of a

4 business decision (speaking under breath). I think

5 that may be the case for people who are

6 participating.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

8 I was going to ask the same question.

9 Perhaps we'll get to that in other slides. Does

10 that make any sense to make a dollar's worth of

11 investment in oil fire equipment to improve its

12 efficiency?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: One would wonder.

14 MALE SPEAKER: You're not off the hook on

15 gas.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: One would wonder. But not

17 participating in it, I can't speak. But I would

18 say that you're always looking at your -- you're

19 always looking at products that are on the fringe

20 like that and you make key decisions on whether

21 you're going to participate or not any time that

22 these efficiency rules -- we could say -- we could
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1 be talking about cooling, too, and there's stuff

2 that happens there, too, so...

3 MR. SACHS: Very much appreciated and

4 understood (inaudible) that sort of stranded

5 products, like in the residential sector, the

6 (inaudible) furnace and just asking with respect

7 the declining market oil nationally and very small

8 savings per unit, whether this -- which we want to

9 (inaudible) as opposed to gas.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Could you make them two

11 product classes and then -- and then have one not

12 necessarily moved up as fast as another one or...

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Sure, that's what -- he

14 has all three watts, right, 82 for gas and 81 for

15 oil?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just to point out again,

18 just emphasizing what Harvey said, as far as

19 national energy savings is concerned, there's very

20 little contribution for...

21 MR. SACHS: Greg, are you going -- this

22 is Harvey again.
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1 Are you going to comment at all on the

2 various (inaudible) and 36 fold increase in

3 national energy savings going from 82, 92, or what?

4 MALE SPEAKER: Could you turn your mike

5 up.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

7 You show on 05 of the upper draft, a

8 (inaudible) factor of 36 (inaudible), 81 or 82

9 percent to 92 percent of oil. Just looks like it's

10 gone linear.

11 MALE SPEAKER: It's just function of the

12 efficiency level that we're analyzing. It's a

13 condensing model that's getting a lot more energy

14 savings (speaking under breath).

15 Still relatively speaking, there's this

16 little note of (speaking under breath), it's a big

17 jump.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

19 Back to Dave's point about the shipments.

20 How do things get replaced? Pardon my imaging

21 here, but do they -- so you're saying the furnace

22 (inaudible) inside the box, it won't be a furnace
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1 shipment independently of the box, the QAC, so you

2 get both no matter what?

3 MALE SPEAKER: You're talking about the

4 gas side?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Dave's point is

6 that the shipment should be equal. In my mind if

7 (coughing) piece breaks in the rooftop, you're

8 going to get the whole thing.

9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Do we need their -- this

10 is Dave with Lennox.

11 You would either replace the heat

12 exchanger with a (inaudible) or replace the box,

13 which has both more times than not. It depends on

14 the product, but more times than not you're going

15 to replace the box.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: At least in most of these I

17 would say -- I would agree with Dave in most of

18 these. To get a heat exchanger out and replace it

19 is significant labor, usually having to take off

20 the top and side panels and you're talking about

21 you got to have a lift jack up there (inaudible).

22 When you start to talk about these
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1 million, two million in heat exchangers are pretty

2 significant, they're pretty tall, they're pretty

3 big. So, yeah, you're talking about (inaudible).

4 They would probably be able to do a whole unit for

5 almost what it costs us for the heat exchanger;

6 maybe not so much in the smaller product, but

7 definitely in this bigger stuff, yeah.

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: John, just to follow up,

9 the thing that could change that equation is

10 (speaking under breath) increasing product cost to

11 increase efficiency could change that equation on

12 these heat exchangers.

13 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. It's a

14 follow-up question, Dave.

15 What's the range -- at what point is that

16 happening in our product life are you saying that

17 the heat exchanger need to be replaced? Is that --

18 what's the range -- what's the disti -- not

19 distribution, what's the range you, in fact,

20 experience?

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: In all honesty, Andrew,

22 I would have to go back and look at some data. My
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1 guess would be it's a 10 to 15-year range. We

2 would -- honestly to answer the question factually

3 I would have to go back and look at some data.

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. If we can go

5 back for just a second, I need to continue beating

6 the dead horse.

7 If I look at the $6 million per year at

8 present value that's for over 30 years I assume,

9 which is $200,000 per year net present value

10 consumer benefit from whatever redesign we require

11 of the oil furnaces, which hardly seems to be a

12 winning case.

13 I also note reference to the earlier

14 question that -- a question that occurs to me I

15 believe that almost oil fired (inaudible) furnaces

16 in a free-style mode gas facts as opposed to the

17 gas situation which was essentially the opposite

18 with almost everything being integrated into the

19 RTU.

20 Am I correct on that?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Basically that almost all

22 the oil furnace -- commercial oil furnaces are
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1 free-standing indoor products versus almost all the

2 gas (inaudible) furnaces are integrated into the

3 RTUs.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: I would say in most

5 cases that was true. In the past, we had -- we had

6 manufactured both the gas and an oil version of

7 that, but again there was very little volume. I

8 can't speak to all of the manufacturers. There was

9 a variety of small manufactuers of those types of

10 products (speaking under breath).

11 MR. SACHS: That's helpful, David. It

12 brings me to my bottom-line question, which is,

13 does it exist to establish to (inaudible) glass

14 that is heated and I didn't know whether it was an

15 indoor or outdoor product (inaudible) about whether

16 it's gas or oil.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, right now they are

18 in two separate classes, gas and oil; not indoor

19 and outdoor, but gas and oil.

20 MR. STARR: I have a question -- this is

21 Louis Starr again.

22 So typically on a heat exchanger for a
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1 furnace, you get a 10-year warranty and sometimes

2 more that's a stainless steel one.

3 So it seems like they're -- it seems like

4 they last a long time first of all, but it seems

5 like -- I know my own furnace at my home which was

6 an oil furnace and did have (inaudible), there was

7 a crack in the heat exchanger. They could replace

8 it without replacing the whole unit.

9 Isn't that the case with commercial units

10 that you can -- they're kind of like the things

11 with the air compressors and the analysis where

12 they found people just replaced the air compressors

13 rather than buying a new unit and there's several

14 replacement parts. There's not a replacement

15 market for some of the items that fail inside the

16 heat exchanger.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: That was the point that we

18 were saying before in that Dave had spoke to

19 before, which was it depends at what timing that

20 happens. And you're right it is layering the unit's

21 life and what are your costs versus a whole unit

22 exchange.
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1 When you're talking about anything above

2 250, when you start to get these 850 BT -- and

3 there's a lot of these units that are 850,000 BTUs,

4 that's significant. I got to lift a whole roof off

5 of a unit to get that heat exchanger out. That

6 roof of that unit is 50-foot long.

7 MR. STARR: You said it's below the unit

8 or such that you have to lift it off --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the middle of the

10 unit. It's in the middle of the unit. You've got

11 to take side panels off and -- it doesn't have to

12 totally lift up, but you have to take something and

13 lift -- pry it open so that you can get that out,

14 so it's a significant amount of work. By the time

15 they add that all up, they could probably change

16 out the unit.

17 MR. STARR: (Inaudible) just kind of a --

18 something else about it. In the air conditioning,

19 one of the reasons -- or the central air condition

20 units are the CAUCs. The reason those things are

21 (inaudible) is because everybody replaces a quick

22 set of (coughing) -- or replacement parts, but
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1 (inaudible) the opposite way. You buy equipment,

2 so they don't really have a choice whether they're

3 going to replace the unit because it becomes so

4 expensive where it sounds like the air conditioning

5 side, you can replace the parts and pieces much

6 easier.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: There again, it depends on

8 what it is. A condenser foil or a compressor

9 that's out on the outside of the unit, it might be. 

10 You're talking about compressors that aren't huge

11 in (inaudible) here, but -- but if you start

12 talking about a vap coil, the vap coil is in the

13 middle of the unit. It starts to get hard. On a

14 30-ton unit, you're talking about significant

15 pounds.

16 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew.

17 I think there were (inaudible) mechanical

18 issues here, but I just want to make a larger

19 observation.

20 I don't know whether we'll find a path

21 for this in this (inaudible) or not, but if I look

22 at this chart up here, big opportunity is at PSL5;
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1 right?

2 So if we look as energy efficiency

3 advocate, I would look for ways to advance energy

4 efficiency in the longterm. If I could see a world

5 where the market for condensing commercial furnaces

6 starts to grow, that's a great outcome from an

7 efficiency savings point of view. So I don't know

8 whether we'll be able to find a way to talk about

9 that in this discussion.

10 I understand that the market -- the

11 market share is one percent or less, some of you

12 guys don't even make them today. So I'm just

13 observing that the big -- I'm the opposite of

14 Harvey. Harvey is looking at well, where's

15 nothing, where's the big numbers in TSL5?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not disagreeing, Andrew

17 -- this is Jill from Trane.

18 I'm not disagreeing, but that technology

19 has been available obviously with residential. We

20 could certainly make those, but why hasn't our

21 customer bought those from us; why hasn't that

22 customer come to us and ask for those increase
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1 tiers like we've had in cooling?

2 I think the significant reason they have

3 is they understand the installation burden that

4 that is, that they can't overcome that installation

5 burden. They do not want these things on roofs.

6 They do not them on rubber roofs. They can't have

7 that liability of caustic materials up there. They

8 don't know what to -- how -- where to put that

9 condensate, because it's not allowed by codes to be

10 put into -- into a pot of a water system.

11 So they don't want to overcome that

12 significant barrier, even though they could

13 understand that there would be some savings in the

14 north and that's probably it in the north.

15 MR. deLASKI: I hear you and I understand

16 those barriers are there. But also, my

17 understanding, is that there has been progress and

18 that there are marked products out there and they

19 are having some -- it's not taking off like the

20 iPad or something, no, but there is -- actually,

21 that's going back down now, but the point is there

22 is progress over the 20 years. It hasn't been a
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1 total dead end.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But those units are

3 in -- make up air units, very specialized, very

4 expensive systems. That's where that 92 percent is

5 being made right now, not a standard rooftop.

6 MR. WINNINGHAM: There are no standard

7 rooftop type products that I'm aware of and are

8 above 81 percent (inaudible) if you look in the

9 directory.

10 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

11 Carrier.

12 The other issue, Andrew, is that when you

13 go to condensing, you're adding more heat

14 exchanger. Even going from 80 to 81, 81 to 82

15 you're adding more heat exchanger. But especially

16 if you go to condensing, you got to add the

17 secondary heat exchanger, which is going to cause

18 more airside pressure drop, it's going to impact

19 the cooling side efficiencies, right, because it's

20 going to draw more fan power in order to do -- pull

21 the air over the -- over the larger heat exchanger

22 on the gas side.
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1 So that just means that to stay even on

2 the air conditioner side, you have to add more coil

3 or you have to do something in order to keep the

4 cooling efficiency -- meet the cooling efficiency

5 levels.

6 MR. LORD: (Inaudible) we've actually

7 studied that quite a bit for 90.1 and that added

8 air site pressure drop is significant on commercial

9 unites, because you got to remember the fan runs

10 all the time.

11 In most of the load and cooling is in

12 (inaudible) -- in the studies we have done show

13 that Climate Zone 5 and lower gets a negative

14 savings, because (inaudible) sets the gas savings,

15 so you can only do it in very, very cold climates.

16 Those buildings get tighter and tighter, it becomes

17 less of an economic benefit.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

19 Only because we have a transcript here

20 some technical, the point I'd like to make on

21 Jill's comment, we're not injecting the condensated

22 (inaudible) water supply.
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1 This is for other sewage disposal --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Sewage, you're right.

3 MR. SACHS: People get very nervous about

4 (inaudible) water supply.

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr.

6 I had actually talked with Jeff Harris

7 who does a lot of our stuff. (Inaudible) in the

8 '80s on the residential side. One of his concerns

9 was that just bumping the efficiency a little bit,

10 I guess back then it made it where the equipment

11 had a lot of problems and had a whole bunch of

12 products out there with just slightly better

13 efficiency then have lots of problems.

14 So really with this thought -- I'm not

15 saying that you should jump to the higher level,

16 but you don't want to do an incremental approach,

17 just a little bit of increase is the idea that you

18 really need to go for the bigger amount, otherwise

19 you're just really introducing unfortunately some

20 more regulations that really don't put too much

21 energy savings, so -- anyway, just -- I thought

22 about it.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's it with the --

2 analysis.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Greg, this Bob Whitwell

4 from Carrier.

5 So I know we've talked about -- you

6 talked about this. There was no discussion about

7 it, but on Slide 8 you're showing the

8 manufacturer's cost. This is all based on going to

9 longer heat exchangers I think?

10 MR. WESTPHANEN: Yes.

11 MR. WHITWELL: I think you mentioned that

12 there were comments that came back about not being

13 room to put -- to go longer in the cabinets. And I

14 know that we've analyzed this and in many cases, we

15 would have difficulty putting the longer heat

16 exchanger in there.

17 So -- and in those cases, we would have

18 to add additional tubes and -- so it's going to be

19 slightly more of an increase in cost. I don't know

20 if you've taken a look at what that might be.

21 MR. WESTPHANEN: We haven't taken a look

22 at it yet, but if we go to -- I think that was the
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1 first issue that we -- or the second issue we

2 looked at on (inaudible). It's something that

3 we're going to try to consider and hopefully get an

4 update as it results during the course of this

5 working group.

6 MR. DOPPLE: Paul Dopple with Mitsubishi.

7 So, Bob, when you do longer tubes, then

8 that also increases the cabinet width which causes

9 the need for transition curbs?

10 MALE SPEAKER: That's right. That's

11 right. And that's why we --

12 MR. DOPPLE: The costs are compounding,

13 it's not just the tube itself?

14 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, our goal would not

15 be to make the cabinet wider, right, so it's what

16 we can fit in the cabinet, and that would be more

17 tubes as opposed to --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, it would be more

19 tubes.

20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen.

21 We brought up this same issue I think in

22 our -- either our interview with you guys or in our
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1 comments and you supplied pictures that went to

2 this very point, so I just want to be on record

3 echoing the concerns raised by Bob.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Is there anything else

5 on commercial warm air furnaces before we turn over

6 to air conditioners?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Since we have Dick in the

8 room, maybe we should go a little out of order to

9 deal with those issues as opposed to the

10 engineering first.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So, John, before we do it

12 -- so my understanding now is that the analysis

13 will be re-run based on the things we discussed?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

15 MR. WHITWELL: When would we see that?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: What are those things, just

17 to make sure I'm...

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's the market shares

19 is the big one.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. (Inaudible) --

21 market shares based upon the AHRI directory.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to have a
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1 slew of data updates that we normally do. So the

2 new AEO is like that.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: But then will the effects

4 of our -- Jill from Trane.

5 So will the effects of condensat,

6 additional cost to condensate at 82 percent be

7 recalculated in the (inaudible) cycle?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Those condensate removal

9 costs like I showed on this slide were for the

10 commencing efficiency level, they weren't for 82

11 percent --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: But it happens at 82

13 percent.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Those are the open

15 questions I think that Adam presented but you can

16 comment to that. We asked for what grade of steel,

17 for example, I think was one of the questions. We

18 haven't received definitive --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, without doing

20 development and testing, I can't tell you for sure.

21 I can tell you we know for sure it is we know for

22 sure, it is a stainless and/or one grade below,
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1 which is what (coughing). It's one of two,

2 stainless and/or the grade right below stainless. 

3 I know for sure it's that. I can't tell which it

4 would end up without doing actual development.

5 MR. WESTPHANEN: We'll look at product

6 literature and see what's being offered right now

7 as far as what's (inaudible) steel they're being

8 used and then we'll assess that. An engineering

9 analysis is part of the cost.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Like Bob said, it's at

11 least another two and you didn't add two costs in

12 there.

13 MR. WESTPHANEN: The assumption was

14 originally that it (coughing) a longer two, but we

15 can get you that --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it's another two.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's two issues on

18 that. Any others for the -- I think we're

19 particularly focused on the 82 unit at this point;

20 right?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. So what I heard --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, going up to

2 another size, I mean, you only did the 250 and it

3 would really hard now at this point. I would

4 recommend that you do -- in the future you do two

5 sizes and be it -- either 450 or 850. I really

6 didn't check how many models were, but you should

7 do the two sizes, because it is not the straight

8 line increase.

9 MALE SPEAKER: So going back to the

10 addition of another two (inaudible); if you add

11 another two, then do you not have to increase the

12 overall (inaudible) is that I was hearing, so you

13 could keep it in the same cabinet size?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Based on our quick look at

15 it, I think we have -- we can more easily fit

16 another tube in and then we can add length to the

17 tubes.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. There is -- like

19 anyone, there will be a cabinet that starts to

20 really max out in, but you'll just have to make

21 decisions on (inaudible) another cabinet and what

22 that does to your cost program.
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1 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

2 Lennox.

3 I think it depends on the manufacturer.

4 Some (speaking under breath), some may not. I

5 don't know that we can definitively say here at

6 this point in time or that (inaudible).

7 MS. HOOTMAN: But length is not -- likely

8 not going to happen. I mean, that increases width

9 of your unit and it likely. I mean, they literally

10 might have to jump sizes, cabinet sizes, in lieu

11 of. But adding length is just not -- there's not

12 enough there without making it a really long

13 (inaudible).

14 MR. THARP: In some cases -- this is

15 Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

16 In some cases you may not -- you may have

17 some room physically for additional tube, but due

18 to airflow patterns you don't want to have

19 hotspots, so you wouldn't do (inaudible) that way

20 either.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's where I was saying

22 about I know that we were considering will be a
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1 jump in size in order to prevent hotspots and rule

2 out real issues.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen.

4 Have we gotten everything out for the --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, this is Bob

6 Whitwell.

7 So we still have this issue where at 82

8 versus 81, we're running into a higher risk of

9 condensation in the heat exchanger. So, for

10 example, if at 81 based on some analysis that some

11 of our engineers did, we can run down to below 10

12 degress Fahrenheit before we start to run into a

13 significant risk of condensate forming in the heat

14 exchangers, but -- I'm sorry, at 80 percent, we can

15 go down to minus 58 degrees Fahrenheit.

16 As we get to 82, it drops to around seven

17 degrees Fahrenheit -- or it comes up to seven

18 degrees Fahrenheit. So there are some significant

19 parts of the country where during certain times

20 during the year you're going to be running with

21 condensate likely to be formed in the heat

22 exchanger.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: But not at 81?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Well, at 81, it would be

3 in between; right?

4 MR. WHITWELL: At 81, it's about minus

5 15, okay, which is -- you know, we don't see a lot

6 of temperature at minus 15 for extended period of

7 times, so -- but it goes -- so minus 58 to minus 15

8 to 7. So, you know, some of these things that are

9 up here that we talked about doing for condensing

10 heat exchangers, we really need to start -- some of

11 those measures we would have to do even at 82 for

12 reliability.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, at 81 they'll be

14 near -- going back to the 50/50, so half of the

15 market right now is 81 and --

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, at 81 it's --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- they're doing it and

18 it's not an issue.

19 MR. WHITWELL: I believe -- yeah, I mean,

20 you know --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. That's good to

22 know.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: So just to follow up on

4 that, what would be helpful is if you could

5 estimate the frequency that you would have to apply

6 some of these measures according to -- I mean, here

7 engineers established at so many degrees farenheit

8 you're going to get into condensate issues and --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think we would

10 probably -- we would probably design with the

11 stainless steel heat exchangers if we were to

12 design for 82 because you know at 82 you're going

13 to have some that are running higher than that

14 because of variation -- you know, manufacturing

15 variation. So I think we should assume the

16 stainless heat exchangers.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I would agree with

18 Bob. I mean, in the short development cycle you're

19 talking about here, three years in heat exchanger

20 development is very short. Heat exchanger

21 development takes a lot longer than cooling

22 development because of the cycles that you have to
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1 do to assure that it has durability, on-off

2 cycling, and so, you know, you're going to go with

3 the more robust design to begin with, and yeah,

4 maybe some day you'll be able to come back at

5 cost-review side after a lot of design cycles and

6 you figure out that maybe there's some areas you

7 could -- you could reduce down to, you know,

8 whether that's a high loom, galvanized or

9 something, but you're going to go out of the box

10 because you don't have to go with stainless. That's

11 where you're going to go at 82.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Adam, refresh my

13 memory, when we started out as an 82, that didn't

14 have these things, right?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it doesn't because it's

16 probably --

17 MR. WHITWELL: No, it wouldn't --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: These are mine. And, no,

19 it wasn't.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: I keep wanting to not

21 call you out on that.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it wasn't, and it has
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1 --

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: How long have you been

3 selling that unit for?

4 MR. WHITWELL: But you probably have a --

5 you probably have a stainless steel option that

6 people --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: You do -- we do have a

8 stainless steel option.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So have you noticed any

10 issues?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have in the field?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. There are

16 also some other factors in that some of the gas

17 utilities are growing higher sulfur contents

18 (inaudible) and there --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, God, yeah, let's talk

20 about that --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- there are other

22 factors here. And while, you know, Bob's numbers
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1 in regard to the temperature of the (inaudible)

2 condensation, that's going to vary from

3 manufacturer to manufacturer according to their

4 design, where they're designing --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: You think --

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- and how -- at what

8 temperature they're designing their heat exchanger

9 to, there are different ways to get to the same

10 efficiency, so it's not just, you know, Bob's

11 numbers across the board. That could range 10, 15,

12 20 degrees, maybe even higher than that. And with

13 some of the instances we've seen with gas utilities

14 with higher sulfur content, it can -- it can raise

15 that significantly.

16 MALE SPEAKER: Do the manufacturers make

17 -- I think I heard this earlier, two different

18 versions, that being north-south type units?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

20 MALE SPEAKER: So it's just one

21 (inaudible). Thank you.

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm a
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1 little confused, perhaps not atypically.

2 Bob has talked about 80, 81 and 82, and

3 outside air to which we get condensation at risk.

4 And Bill's talked about cycling, and I'm

5 trying to think of a really cold day that -- not at

6 15, but 81, say, it seems to me that I'm -- that's

7 an early morning situation I'm going to encounter

8 when I have Monday morning start-up and bringing

9 the building back up to temperature, and that would

10 seem to be long burn times. Am I seeing the

11 condensation mostly when I'm at short burn times in

12 cold air, or is that a city-state issue, as well,

13 with long burn times? I just don't know.

14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

15 Lennox. It could be a short burn time at relatively

16 mild temperatures where you can see this.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes.

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Or long burn times at

19 cold temperatures, and kind of variations there in

20 between. Short burn times are -- tend to have more

21 problems, but obviously this can be related to how

22 much outdoor air and what temperature the outdoor
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1 is.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Harvey, the numbers

3 I was talking about would be long burn times. It's

4 a city-state type -- kind of situation.

5 MR. SACHS: So if this is fall -- this is

6 Harvey -- that would tend to be one of these

7 inevitable cold spots in that heat exchanger?

8 MR. WHITWELL: The whole heat exchanger.

9 Yes, the whole heat exchanger would be cold. You

10 could -- if you have cold spots in the heat

11 exchanger, which you probably do, those would be

12 issues at even higher outdoor temperatures.

13 MR. SACHS: Okay.

14 MALE SPEAKER: This is just a follow-up

15 question for Bob. Presumably these are not make-up

16 air units so there would be an inherent percent

17 outdoor air, probably, associated with those

18 numbers.

19 MR. WHITWELL: They're not -- they're not

20 dedicated outdoor air units, but they're roof-top

21 units with economizers, so there is outdoor air

22 coming in.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Right. But presumably,

2 you would be still open to the outdoor air when --

3 you know, at these numbers?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, not full open, no.

5 MALE SPEAKER: So these numbers --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But there's minimums on --

7 you know, on most building there's minimum outside

8 air, just to start.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Right. No, I'm just

10 trying to get an understanding for the numbers. Is

11 this for 50 percent outdoor air, 30 percent, 20

12 percent?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I don't have that --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know the --

15 MALE SPEAKER: One thing I'd point out,

16 usually on your morning warm-up, you close -- you

17 start heating the building before people get there

18 so you close your outside air damper and you run

19 the air internally to the building so you're not

20 pulling in -- you're getting pretty warm air coming

21 back in the (inaudible), but then once you switch

22 to (inaudible), you have to start drawing outside
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1 air, so to the extent -- probably the long-burn one

2 is probably kind of, like you say, Monday morning,

3 and it starts out after the morning -- or the night

4 cool-down or whatever and they're trying to warm

5 the building up, and then after that, it's probably

6 -- I'm guessing it's kind of intermittent use after

7 that, so...

8 MR. WHITWELL: Intermittent use, yes, and

9 so the condensate is still going to be there,

10 right, and it's sitting there.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We have Diane

12 Jakobs who has her hand raised. We will un-mute

13 you, Diane.

14 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, I'm here. Thank you.

15 I work on the gas heat exchangers. It is

16 one of the additional things I do.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. JACKOBS: And for the Rheem furnaces,

19 commercial furnaces, we have a product, stainless

20 steel, that's available, but we've made it

21 available because in some areas in the summer, the

22 gas heat exchanger in a commercial unit will rot
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1 because you have cold on the outside of the gas

2 heat exchanger tube and we have hot, wet air on the

3 inside of the tube because it's open for the

4 ambience. And depending on what's in the air in a

5 certain area, there could be ammonia, you know, on

6 the sea coast and you have problems with corrosion,

7 but it's completely -- it's a completely different

8 reason for it being there compared to when we use

9 409 stainless steel in a non-weatherized gas

10 burner.

11 So the (inaudible) standard has tests

12 that we have to run for corrosion, but we did not

13 run those tests on the commercial units because we

14 weren't expecting condensate in the flue gas.

15 We're expecting condensation in the

16 summer inside the tubes because it's hot and wet

17 outside. So it is the same material, we use the

18 same material because it's available and we buy

19 tons of it, but we just have to -- condensate being

20 present in the gas heat exchanger when it's firing

21 in the winter.

22 I don't know if all that made much sense,
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1 but we use the material, but we tested it and

2 designed for the unit for a different mode of

3 operation (inaudible) commercial furnace.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So can we move on

6 now to -- I suggest we push along since we started

7 late and break right before 12:30 because it's

8 convenient for me to go to a very important meeting

9 upstairs. I won't take long. Sound good?

10 I think we have Dick here, so let's take

11 advantage of his time.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you know, we don't

13 have really much to talk about other than the 1033

14 building data. I mean, we're -- so I don't know --

15 we don't have any slides really to speak to.

16 This is what we had from the last meeting

17 in terms of --

18 (Discussion off the record.)

19 (Court reporter changed battery.)

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, so as I was saying

21 before, this is the only slide that (inaudible).

22 And this slide is basically a repeat from our prior
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1 meeting showing what we've done to address the

2 things that have come up (inaudible). The first one

3 being (inaudible) and making sure that it's based

4 upon, you know, the city, that the building has

5 actually been modeled as opposed to using a 95

6 degree (inaudible).

7 We've done a lot to address the

8 (inaudible). You know, we've gone over this

9 several times, so I don't think there's any need to

10 discuss that, but I just want to point out that one

11 thing we said we were going to do last time, which

12 we haven't done yet, is -- is dealing with these

13 buildings which have a low load, occurrence of low

14 load, I should say, during the course of the year,

15 and not having every single unit on to meet that

16 load. You know, we want to do the sensitivity that

17 would look at what would occur if we only used a

18 grouping or a cluster of units rather than all of

19 the units to serve that load and to see how much of

20 an effect that has the energy consumption. The

21 issue there is that if you assume all of the units

22 are on a low load (inaudible), so if you cluster
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1 that, it would be less than that to occur.

2 On the fan speed for heating, again,

3 we're running it now at high speed as opposed to

4 low speed. On the indoor fan -- this is another

5 thing that we've changed that had a pretty

6 significant effect. Before the NOPR, we had that

7 correlated to the (inaudible) temperature, and so

8 when you dropped the ambient temperature low

9 enough, you were (inaudible) assumptions. So now

10 we have that as a function of stage, and that has

11 taken care of that problem.

12 And then finally one thing, again, we

13 discussed last week and which we've done is thanks

14 to the folks at Navigant, they provided us with the

15 performance data for these units that they modeled

16 at higher (inaudible) pressures, which again, as

17 you'll see later, has a significant impact on the

18 fan energy use. It really increases it over what

19 -- over what's in the test (inaudible). So these

20 are the things, again, that we've done so far.

21 The other thing that we've done is look

22 at economizer (inaudible). Last week I stated that
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1 we wouldn't have enough time to change those loads,

2 even if we wanted to, for producing results for

3 this meeting, but, you know, I'm flipping all the

4 way basically to the end of the presentation. It's

5 this slide where -- 86, and it speaks to the

6 economizer issue where those types of cooling loads

7 have been (inaudible) and I presented a table in

8 last week's presentation that did not take into

9 account the weighting of the buildings that is

10 representative to the city for those buildings, so

11 you come out with a different conclusion when you

12 don't weight, so this shows the weighting. It

13 shows that for the 1033 blast building sample that

14 we're using in the analysis, on a cooled square

15 footage basis, roughly about 35 percent of it, of

16 this cooled square footage uses economizers. Last

17 week we were looking at numbers which indicated the

18 opposite of that, but that was because the building

19 sample was not weighted properly. And again, those

20 are -- those are, yes, actually 36 percent.

21 And the last set of columns just shows

22 for those buildings that are economized and not
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1 economized what the cooling load is for support,

2 but just to get an indication of whether or not the

3 economizers are being -- are being effected at

4 reducing cooling load, at least looking at it this

5 way, and, you know, on a national basis, it does

6 reduce cooling load, but there are certainly parts

7 of the country on a regional basis where it

8 doesn't. So that's just back to where it just

9 doesn't make sense to use the economizer in that

10 region of the country, but anyway...

11 So then speaking mostly to whether or not

12 the blast building sample has the right amount of

13 squared -- cooled square footage that has

14 economizers, we started looking at other CBECs. The

15 last building sample is based upon the '95 CBEC,

16 so, again, looking at '99, 2003. In the 2012, it's

17 trickling out so we get to see those numbers as

18 well, and because the 2012 doesn't have a

19 micro-data set yet, we only have a certain type of

20 information provided, particularly, the square

21 footage that's cooled 50 percent by packaged units

22 where 50 percent are greater, we -- we're looking
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1 at that particular criteria -- criterion on past

2 aging CBECs so we can see how that might change, as

3 well as the packaged cool -- the units -- square

4 footage that's cooled with packaged units, 50

5 percent or more square footage with economizers.

6 Making sure to focus on the fractions

7 here, at least looking at these fractions, it

8 indicates to me that a blast building sample, at

9 least in terms of the number of buildings with

10 economizers, have got it about right.

11 It is increasing, right, the fraction of

12 cooled square footage that is being served by

13 economizers has increased since 1995, but when you

14 look at the square footage with economizers that's

15 also cooled 50 percent or more with packaged

16 cooling, those numbers are a little bit more -- I

17 would say more stable. I'm noting that the last

18 number there is derived, assuming that 80 percent

19 of the economized -- new economized square footage

20 is in buildings where the packaged AC is cooling at

21 least half the space.

22 Again, I think this is addressing the
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1 issue whether or not the fraction of cooled square

2 footage is correct in the blast building sample

3 that we're using, and I would say roughly it is.

4 So that's all we've brought to the table

5 for this meeting to talk about this issue. So I'd

6 open it up to...

7 MR. LORD: A couple of questions. I

8 mean, the 36 percent, is that before you

9 (inaudible) them, 30 percent of them?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. No, it's

11 (inaudible).

12 MR. LORD: Okay. So you're saying it's

13 36 percent with a 30 percent (inaudible) on those?

14 Yeah, I went back and I checked that

15 (inaudible). I show (inaudible) if you follow the

16 code, it's 89.9 percent of the (inaudible). Now,

17 some of you may say, well, that's (inaudible), but

18 actually the IDC has more strict requirements on

19 economizers than (inaudible). It actually requires

20 another (inaudible).

21 We went back and looked at our data and

22 we're more to the 75 percent. The AHRI doesn't
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1 have the data done yet. They're still processing

2 it. And the reason I'm so focussed on economizers

3 is the other products you don't have on your list

4 and keep pushing it off the list is, your low

5 profiles just don't look right. You know, I see

6 all these loads down at -- like Chicago, you have a

7 30 percent load at zero degree on some of those

8 buildings. I mean, that's where economizers are

9 going to work. I mean, that much load on a

10 building just doesn't look right, especially --

11 those things should be in heating by that time, so,

12 you know, the combination of having these really

13 low loads at very low ambience and then not using

14 economizers is kind of a (inaudible). I mean, you

15 know, it's putting a lot of emphasis on very low

16 capacity, low speed fans, and then you (inaudible). 

17 I think you're pointing at some savings that really

18 aren't going to be there in the real world.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I have -- you know, a

20 little bit of what Dick was saying, the example of

21 the Chicago building, I think this is (inaudible)

22 always maintained that the economizer wasn't
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1 working in that particular model and that's why you

2 were seeing that problem. And so because we can't

3 go back and look at that blast model, it's not

4 necessary that we can't really figure out whether

5 that's the case of that particular (inaudible), and

6 I guess it's a question we'll never know, but that

7 was my assumption when I looked at that particular

8 model was assuming that the economizer was broken.

9 MR. LORD: It's not just -- I looked at

10 all the ones he gave me. Every single one of them

11 the economizer is not working right.

12 You know, Greg and I have gone back and

13 forth, you know, we talked some this morning, you

14 know, I'm nervous about the way we generated these

15 low profiles. If we used an energy profile, we'd

16 try to back it up. It just doesn't add up with all

17 the low profiles I've seen in my career.

18 You know, I know what Greg's done and we

19 just confirmed that -- I thought he was doing

20 something wrong, but we confirmed it was right.

21 Just something doesn't look right to generate that

22 much load at low ambience on old buildings. It just
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1 doesn't make sense.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: So it is essentially

3 (inaudible) is that what -- or you're not sure what

4 it's doing?

5 MR. LORD: No, it's definitely going to

6 show -- it's going to show increased energy usage

7 and then when you start playing with things like

8 two-speed fans and variable-speed fans, it's going

9 to show you a lot more benefit than you're really

10 going to get. That's my point.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So, though, if it's in

12 the base-case and then the standards case is that

13 since you're using both in the base-case and the

14 standards case is that you'll have more energy

15 savings, but it seems like we'll see some of the

16 same effects, just the higher technology and the

17 higher standard level is just going to give you

18 more benefit. Is that what you're getting at?

19 MR. LORD: It's primarily because of the

20 fan speed (inaudible). You know, if everything had

21 a fixed speed, there wouldn't be a difference, but

22 as you start to reduce the speed at all these
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1 really, really low loads -- I mean, if you look at,

2 you know, weighting factors, your weighting factors

3 are significantly skewed for low loads, so it makes

4 low-load capacity machines, coupled with oversized

5 machines pushes everything down to low loads. You

6 know, if I believed what you guys had, I would

7 regenerate the IER equation to significantly change

8 the weighting factor.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, one of the things

10 I think too is, I think part of the problem with

11 everything (inaudible) it's not necessarily the

12 analysis, but that testing procedure for the AHRI

13 is for how they rate for equipment and how energy

14 is actually used, particularly at the external side

15 of pressure, I think kind of favors more of this

16 fan energy in saving energy; however, the test

17 procedure doesn't really necessarily drive in that

18 direction, and it seems a little bit -- that's the

19 paradigm or the --

20 MR. LORD: Not really. The reason we

21 came up with -- particularly we came up with IER,

22 which is shown in DOE-challenging industry, it
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1 makes you start to look at low load, and this is

2 why the two-speed fan came out of (inaudible). And

3 I agree statics are higher. You can also find

4 statics that are low where you have free discharge

5 which are all your (inaudible) but, you know, the

6 average statics are higher than we rate. It would

7 be nice to fix those some day, but, you know, we

8 have this policy you can't go backwards. We're

9 damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. I

10 mean, a lot of us have said we should change, but

11 we can't.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think one of the

13 things that this analysis is surveying for is some

14 sort of sensitivity, you know, perhaps taking those

15 blast buildings with economizers, yes, with

16 economizers, and perhaps removing the low load

17 points to see what sort of effect that has on the

18 energy use of (inaudible) cost.

19 So again, we've been focussing over the

20 last week just to get the primary analysis, which

21 will be saying -- but I think that will probably

22 address, to a large extent, what sort of effect,
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1 you know, these low loads are having on the

2 analysis.

3 MR. STARR: I did have one last question

4 about that. It's really not your analysis, but the

5 next analysis going forward, in terms of equipment

6 sizing that's basically going to show equipment,

7 you will match up the loads to the exact stuff that

8 comes out of your loads and equipment will be sized

9 to fit that or is there an oversize impactors, so

10 you have -- let's say you have a 20 -- or a 17-ton

11 load for a building, but equipment is only

12 available in 20 tons, so is that reflected in the

13 analysis -- the post -- or the processing

14 (inaudible) or does that just happen at the blast

15 model level and it's not just there?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, just a

17 reminder, the blast calculates the system capacity

18 for the building based upon the design temperature,

19 and then it includes oversized impactors on top of

20 that, so --

21 MR. STARR: So that's where you see

22 energy usage there?
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, right, so that's

2 what dictates what sort of part-load condition

3 you're in, right, is the calculation of that system

4 capacity.

5 MR. STARR: Yeah, I went back and checked

6 some of his runs, you know, we have (inaudible). I

7 found one that was undersized and ones that were 25

8 almost 30 percent oversized, so it goes back to the

9 original blast assumptions, whatever the equipment

10 size is.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

12 So is Greg's suggestion for sensitivity a

13 fine way to go? I mean, we've been -- we've been

14 passing this volleyball over the net here for the

15 better part of six weeks, if I recall, so...

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, one of the

17 things I've been trying to -- trying to maybe put

18 to bed here is this issue about the fraction of the

19 cooled square footage with economizers, right,

20 because I think that was up for some debate, and

21 just, again, looking at the most recent CBEC

22 statement, again, it seems to be in line with the
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1 percentages of the blast sample.

2 I mean, I could say there has been an

3 increase in the amount of square footage being

4 economized. It just kind of got to the point of,

5 you know, being all that different than what we're

6 using in the blast sample.

7 The other point, which is, you know,

8 below the load itself, right? Again, that's sort

9 of proposing that some sort of sensitivity be done

10 on what we have from the blast simulations to see

11 what sort of effect it has on the energy

12 consumption.

13 MR. LORD: This is Dick Lord.

14 Yeah, I'd like to get -- the sensitivity,

15 there's probably nothing we can do on the low

16 profiles. You know, I'll go back and look at it on

17 some 1980 models from (inaudible) to see if I get

18 the same shapes.

19 My concern on the economizers is, you

20 know, over the years we keep expanding economizers,

21 and the reason we keep expanding economizers -- I

22 can show you guys the curve -- if you look at some
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1 of the cities in like zone 5, you're talking 20, 30

2 percent energy savings, so, you know, economizers

3 have gone from larger sizes. They didn't used to be

4 in zone 3-A, 4-A, they're now in those zones. By

5 the time we get to 2018, 2019, hopefully they

6 should be there. Hopefully we've fixed all the

7 economizer problems with all the work that Title 24

8 has done. I don't usually like to compliment Title

9 24, but they've actually done some -- some good

10 work, you know, forcing us to do things. It's just

11 these are very, very low economizer numbers.

12 MR. STARR: It's like (inaudible) 80

13 percent to do stuff. Does that seem like a

14 reasonable --

15 MR. LORD: No. It's 36. I mean, if 80

16 percent do, I don't --

17 MR. STARR: (Inaudible).

18 MR. LORD: I trust you.

19 MR. STARR: When you said it earlier, I

20 don't know -- when you say you weighted the sample,

21 maybe you can restate that point.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: What are you asking for?
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1 MR. STARR: So earlier you had talked

2 about -- it was when you had the 39 percent and you

3 had the little (inaudible) up and you were saying

4 that the new --

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, let me go over

6 that.

7 MR. STARR: There it is.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm taking this --

9 the 9 billion in square footage that's being

10 economized since 2003, it's saying that 80 percent

11 of that is in buildings that are 50 percent or more

12 with packaged AC and then assigning it to that --

13 to here, right, to get this square footage and

14 then, in turn, getting that percentage, so it's a

15 -- it's a -- it's a flat-out assumption. I just

16 took a high percentage of this new economized

17 square footage, assigned it to this category to see

18 what sort of percentage I would get here, looking

19 at whether or not, you know, that the 30 percent

20 number that we're seeing in the (inaudible) was

21 reasonable or not.

22 MR. STARR: Maybe Dick can answer this.
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1 Those two columns he's got out there, the

2 5.36 and the 3.98, are those -- what's -- I don't

3 know -- your 90.1 models, do they have that

4 information?

5 MR. LORD: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of

6 what 90.1 shows you for condensate by climate zone.

7 MR. STARR: But does it have it per

8 square foot?

9 MR. LORD: I can go back and calculate it

10 per square foot. I just -- this is what we did to

11 justify that.

12 MR. STARR: Well, wouldn't that help --

13 help out with understanding the effect of

14 economizers or not, right, if -- I mean, I

15 (inaudible) your 90.1 models are going to probably

16 show more, right, than those numbers, I would

17 guess?

18 MR. LORD: Actually, you guys have more

19 load per square foot -- that's the other thing I

20 don't like about your model -- in cooling.

21 MR. STARR: Well, here's a (inaudible)

22 probably just solve this stuff today, right? Maybe
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1 you can go back and look at your models or what

2 he's done up here and see how it matches up with

3 the 90.1 models and see if it's going to change the

4 analysis because it's really the relative scale of

5 these things. I mean, in other words, if he

6 increases more economizer savings, it will

7 basically reduce the total -- or the total energy

8 use, right, essentially?

9 MR. LORD: Yeah, yeah.

10 MR. STARR: But it might favor

11 technologies that are fan-driven technologies and

12 that's where you might get a skew in the analysis;

13 in other words, it would tend to favor the higher

14 (inaudible) levels?

15 MR. LORD: The economizers (inaudible)

16 90.1 is a two-speed economizer. (Inaudible) model

17 that, you know, 90.1 requires you run a low-speed

18 fan until they come (inaudible). But you know,

19 once you have an economizer, you know, the

20 difference between EL-1 and EL-4, it kind of

21 doesn't make a difference unless you have a

22 two-speed fan. The other thing is, it doesn't
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1 reduce your overall energy savings. Instead of 11

2 quads, you get 7 quads. That's the big deal about

3 it.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, in these next

5 couple of slides, even after this issue of

6 (inaudible) option and perhaps, you know, how

7 quickly the uptake is in something like that

8 (inaudible) into building codes, and this is

9 straight from DOE, and it's show this map of -- the

10 blue indicates that those states are pulling in a

11 more recent energy code into -- into their building

12 codes. It was pulling in, what did I say, 90.1,

13 2010, 2012?

14 You know, yellow states indicate a prior

15 version of that, and the green states a prior

16 version to that. So actually, that's the most

17 recent version. I'm sorry, the green are the -- is

18 the most recent version, and then the white are

19 just probably the oldest or, sort of, no code at

20 all. So again, it gives an idea of how quickly the

21 uptake is, right? And this is as of 2015.

22 MR. LORD: Yeah, it typically takes -- I
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1 did a study on this once. It typically takes about

2 8 years to get to an 80 percent (inaudible). So I'm

3 sure the states like what I lived in, Tennessee, we

4 don't believe in codes. We don't believe in sex

5 either, so --

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why are you -- oh, yeah,

8 that's why.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. LORD: Yeah, I mean, the thing to

11 keep in mind too is (inaudible) are pretty close on

12 this equipment. They tend to have the same

13 economizer requirements, the same efficiency

14 requirements, so --

15 MALE SPEAKER: A couple of years decline?

16 MR. LORD: Usually, yeah, we try to force

17 them into each other, so...

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, the compliance

19 --

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, the same amount of

21 (inaudible). The other part of the equation is to

22 (inaudible) how compliant are these buildings, and
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1 this is actually a study that John actually

2 commissioned LDNL to do to try to get an answer to

3 that question. Not so much -- of course, it's

4 mostly after the cost compliance rather than actual

5 compliance ratings, but before you can do the cost

6 compliance, you have to sort of understand what

7 you're dealing with here, and this is -- this is

8 just some results. I'm showing, you know,

9 compliance rates in four -- you know, four

10 buildings, the building sample that you see there

11 in the second-to-last column, so -- and then an

12 explanation of what exactly I knew on compliance

13 rates.

14 So again, it just indicates that, you

15 know, by no means do you have 100 percent

16 compliance out there in buildings, even though you

17 might have a code that's on the books, right, so...

18 MR. STARR: One of the things I wanted to

19 potentially look at, you know, you're talking about

20 the failure rate of economizers at 33 percent. 

21 Well, I think Meg sent you one last week that we

22 have a higher number than that, and it would be
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1 helpful to know kind of the sensitivity analysis

2 around the -- and I don't know -- first of all, I

3 should ask, is it possible to do a sensitivity

4 analysis understanding the failure rate or is that

5 stuck in the blast model? Or is there a way to do

6 that to see how it changes; in other words, if the

7 plans -- if the (inaudible) goes above 33 percent

8 or it goes below and seeing how that makes a

9 difference or if it makes a difference at all.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, and we have the

11 method of (inaudible) economizer method in any

12 building, regardless of whether or not we think the

13 economizers work, so, I mean, that maybe is an

14 extreme, sort of, sensitivity to do --

15 MR. STARR: I was thinking in the

16 (inaudible) that the square -- the cooling per

17 square foot that you have, that's the kind of

18 analysis I was talking about. Yeah, that 5.36 and

19 3.98; in other words, if you change -- is there a

20 way to change the economizer to get those numbers

21 to change or is that imbedded in the blast model?

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: The 30 percent failure
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1 rate is imbedded in the blast model. I guess what

2 I was trying to say is that in post-processing of

3 the economized buildings because if those loads are

4 in question, right, if we just post-process those

5 and remove these low loads, we can come up with a

6 new -- you know, 3.98 value, you know, when we do

7 that to see what sort of impact that has.

8 MALE SPEAKER: That's probably going to

9 work or not.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you know, I'm

11 saying yes. I mean, that's why we couldn't do it

12 for this meeting, right, but it may have to become

13 priority.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

15 And I think, again, we keep, you know,

16 hitting the ball over the net here.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Eventually I'm going to

19 spike it or somebody's going to spike it.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're going to spike it

21 on my head.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, honestly, I

2 mean, we keep talking -- we understand the issue

3 and we keep talking about it. Let's just make a

4 decision about how we want to do this with a

5 reasonable sensitivity to get -- to me, I think,

6 two issues, I think, it's raising -- if I

7 mischaracterize (inaudible).

8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so by 2020, or

10 whatever, we're assuming the standard kicks in, you

11 think that number should be -- given all the data

12 we see up here and the adoption rates of codes, the

13 compliance rates of codes, you know, to me, I see

14 this number not changing very quickly in the

15 building stock.

16 MR. LORD: Maybe I'll answer it another

17 way, John. If you took all the money we're going

18 to invest in copper in this area and put it into

19 making sure equipment runs well on the roof, you'd

20 save more energy. You know, that gets into the

21 whole thing like what (inaudible) how do you

22 enforce compliance?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, they do that.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: What's most important is

3 about the starting point, right, because as you'll

4 see in the later analysis that Katie will present,

5 you know, we -- we are assuming that the building

6 is actually getting more efficient over time, which

7 we're not stating exclusively what that's getting

8 to, right, but I can only assume that maybe

9 economizers are part of that, right?

10 MR. LORD: Right. So that's a good

11 point, right, so the baseline has this what they

12 call (inaudible), but like Greg says, it's not just

13 better windows and insulation, it's all about how

14 the building is maintained and operating, which

15 includes economizers, so we need to be careful

16 about chiseling away a lot of the baseline use over

17 time due to these autonomous improvements that are

18 unrelated to the equipment, so we need to isolate

19 these things, so be careful about the math here.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

21 I want to focus on just a piece of that

22 that Dick has eluded to. The sense is that Title
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1 24 has forced a reinvention of the economizer

2 itself that we're now seeing rack and pinion

3 (inaudible) as to these crazy rods and things like

4 that. Has -- has CEC or anyone else just looked at

5 the new generation of economizers to see what their

6 failure rate is?

7 MR. LORD: Part of the problem, Harvey,

8 is, we keep going back to the 2003 study that John

9 (inaudible). Nobody has ever gone back up and

10 updated the study. We keep referencing the same

11 data. Now, you'll see a new report that comes out

12 in 2014, but you'll read it and it still references

13 the original data.

14 MALE SPEAKER: We should go back and do

15 that sometime.

16 MR. SACHS: But just out of the issue

17 here is that we're (inaudible) sensitivity analysis

18 because we simply haven't looked at the performance

19 of that new generation that's being advertised.

20 MR. LORD: But, Harvey, I'll bring up the

21 same issue as you. When you look at the original

22 report that was done, it wasn't just economizers.
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1 It was low air flow. It's was low charge. There

2 was a whole slew of things that don't work right on

3 buildings that we've got to fix one of these days.

4 MR. STARR: Well, I think part of the

5 thing -- this is Louis.

6 You know, part of the problem with

7 economizers is not so much -- there is a certain

8 amount (inaudible) that would be an example. Now

9 they're using gears instead, but there's a lot of

10 things that the people at the other end are

11 disabling stuff in order to make it not work, and

12 so that's why when these numbers come back, it's

13 fairly complex things that are happening with the

14 economizer and a lot of things can go wrong with it

15 in different places so you can't fix those points

16 in failure, but then a lot of times you have people

17 cutting a piece of cardboard out in order to --

18 there's nothing you're going to be able to do to

19 stop that from happening, and that's why, you know,

20 when they say it was 33 percent, in my mind, that's

21 a low number. In reality, as you get further along

22 in time, that number is a much higher number,
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1 closer to 60 percent, so between zero and 65 is 33

2 percent, so in a way, they may have reached the

3 number that's between what we -- we're talking

4 about here. I don't know. I guess -- I think it's

5 less about the equipment, the (inaudible) of the

6 equipment. It's more just about people overriding

7 it and not paying for things.

8 MR. LORD: A couple of comments on that.

9 We found in those studies that a lot of people will

10 disconnect economizers. That's actually an energy

11 savings. (Inaudible) and we keep ignoring that

12 part, but, you know, the other thing too --

13 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

14 MR. LORD: But the other thing you've got

15 to keep in mind too is, the trouble with

16 economizers, you have 100 percent backup, so if the

17 economizer is not there, you still have cooling

18 presumably (inaudible). That's the issue you face.

19 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen from Rheem.

20 We obviously -- we disagree on this

21 number for good reasons. So since we're in a

22 negotiation, let's negotiate.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I have one

2 suggestion before (inaudible) perhaps. So Dick has

3 some numbers, that 5.36 and 3.98. One of the

4 things that Greg has suggested is this sensitivity

5 analysis. If you were to look to see how that

6 effects things, just not going back and changing

7 economizers, but adjusting those numbers, you can

8 do that fairly easily and see how that affects

9 things. And then if Dick comes with some other

10 numbers and it's -- and then if you can see how his

11 numbers are -- I mean, you can get a sense. You

12 know, you won't be able to get an exact number, but

13 if we're talking about variable energy, then it

14 doesn't make any difference.

15 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie from

16 Lawrence Berkeley Lab.

17 I would suggest, first of all, that --

18 that -- something that's fairly straightforward to

19 do is to segregate the energy savings by

20 temperature range so we can look at who the energy

21 (inaudible) 60 or 65 degrees (inaudible) because

22 I'm not personally convinced that the low loads are
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1 contributing a large amount of energy. And I think

2 we also need to be aware that the fan load is not

3 -- the fan load is sort of an output of a blast

4 simulation model because you have a fraction of an

5 hour that a fan is running, and I don't think that

6 that really has a great deal to do either with the

7 presence of an economizers, so -- so I can start

8 with a calculation that does that segregation and

9 then, you know, we can see to what extent the low

10 load economizer versus non-economizer is an issue

11 because I think it's -- it's dangerous to take too

12 much from -- we have over 1,000 buildings and we've

13 provided hourly loads for, I think, 7 or 8, and I

14 don't want to get too far down this road based on

15 that -- that small sample.

16 So anything that we do, we have to, you

17 know, think of it in terms of looking at the entire

18 sample and coming up with some measure that we can

19 do across the entire sample.

20 And then the other suggestion that Greg

21 made is, you know, we can go to some minimum load

22 and just see what we have, and so instead of saying
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1 a load is like 2 percent of the max, we'll just

2 drop it to zero. And again, if you want to give me

3 a number that you're happy with, I can go and run

4 that sensitivity. And I suspect, again, that since

5 overall energy consumption scales with the heat

6 removed from the building for the cooling load,

7 you're not necessarily going to see a huge impact.

8 So I think that rather than walking

9 around trying to reproduce loads, which is really

10 not a very realistic objective, I think, you know,

11 just giving us some cutoffs on either temperature

12 ranges or a minimum load that you think is

13 reasonable and we can just run that.

14 MR. STARR: Katie, there's actually two

15 problems we're kind of intermixing here. One is

16 the economizer which has impacts over all energy.

17 The low-load impacts technology, so if you go to

18 variable-speed fans, we get a lot more benefit with

19 these low load (inaudible) because you're running a

20 huge number of hours at very low speeds. When you

21 compare it against the fixed speed, you get

22 significant energy, coupled with raising the static
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1 up, which I'm not against, it makes it even bigger.

2 So there's two problems intermixed that we're

3 talking about.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: And I think some of the

5 things that Katie was suggesting were just to see

6 how much the load actually is occurring at these,

7 you know, relatively low -- low ambient

8 temperatures, but some of the files we've been

9 looking at show a lot of load, and that would

10 probably provide some information that would, sort

11 of, put a scale on what we're talking about here.

12 MR. STARR: I feel like that Chicago

13 building you gave had a huge number of (inaudible)

14 and very low loads.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

16 MR. STARR: As well as the first one we

17 looked at, building 29, that had a lot of load at

18 very low (inaudible).

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, again, I

20 keep on coming back to this idea of, you know, at

21 least taking down the price a little bit, taking

22 the buildings right now and the blast sample that
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1 has already (inaudible) and doing this -- just as

2 Katie suggested, you know, picking an ambient

3 temperature where we just cut off that load and

4 re-process that data and see what sort of effect it

5 has on the energy consumption.

6 It's something that we can do simply --

7 you know, relatively simply, I should say, to get

8 an idea of how much of an affect we're talking

9 about here.

10 MR. LORD: We can take a look at it. You

11 know, we can sit down and look at the data in

12 California for the last three weeks, three

13 different times, so I'll stop and see you.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Does the working group want

15 Katie to do that?

16 Yes, Louis?

17 MR. STARR: I'm just trying to figure out

18 how much work that is and will it get us closer to

19 where we need to --

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, you know,

21 it's over 1,000 buildings where we would have to

22 alter the load -- the load unit on, right, and then
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1 re-process the load. There was a tremendous amount

2 of effort to get to where we are today for the

3 7-and-a-half ton and 15-ton results for both energy

4 consumption and costs, right, so we now have, you

5 know, the code to be able to do this processing

6 again. So the effort -- the real effort is -- is

7 -- is going to those building where we're going to

8 alter the load so we can re-process them.

9 MR. STARR: You would also drop out your

10 economizer assumption, failure rate, by --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, yeah, in some

12 sense -- you know, it's sort of an extreme.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: No, we have no idea --

14 there's no indication in the data that we have

15 which buildings economizers have actually failed,

16 so you can try to guess; but again, I don't really

17 think it's worth trying to dig into that stuff. If

18 you don't like the low loads, we'll drop the low

19 loads. It's much easier just to do that. But we're

20 not going to be able to come up with some imitation

21 of economizer performance with what we have.

22 MR. STARR: Well, my concern is, is that
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1 if we do the analysis and it is a lot, then that

2 becomes -- you know, I guess there's an engineering

3 approach and then there's a negotiation approach. 

4 I want 4, you want 2, we'll go to 3. I don't like

5 that approach. I'd rather, you know, the

6 engineering decision based upon what it is rather

7 than just taking a number and dividing it by 2 or

8 halfway between those numbers, so, in my mind,

9 there is some re-analysis that sort of has to have

10 some base assumption that there's -- you know, if

11 the analysis is going to be done, there needs to be

12 some engineering -- you know, something that

13 approximates some kind of failure rate of

14 economizers.

15 In my mind, 33 percent is too low. In

16 Dick's mind is too high. So now we're going to go

17 back -- we're going to go back and look at some

18 analyses where it assumed zero, which is definitely

19 too low.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, I guess, you

21 know, looking at the case with basically no --

22 assumption of no economizer failure, right, you
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1 know, it's not probably realistic, right, but it

2 would at least put a point out there -- you know, I

3 guess you're nervous about that point, but I guess

4 (inaudible) from Katie and I is that we don't think

5 a lot of the loads are actually occurring at these

6 low ambient temperatures, as well, so I mean --

7 MR. STARR: I don't need to be concerned.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So anyway, I'm just

10 thinking that any -- given the time that we have,

11 right, doing -- taking -- doing this is, I would

12 say, relatively straightforward that it could be

13 done to see what (inaudible) we're talking about

14 here.

15 I mean, I'm getting resistance here, so

16 -- you know, I'd like this proposal --

17 MALE SPEAKER: Why don't you take a

18 break, how about that?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and what I'm

21 hearing is a cry to do whatever sensitivity

22 analysis we can so we're bounding the uncertainties
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1 and then we're going to have to negotiate, right?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I just wanted to get back

3 on -- we're bounding with zero, right, which we

4 know is not a reality bound, so I think we need to

5 be a little bit careful here about how we bound it. 

6 I'm willing to -- obviously willing to do the --

7 have the team run the analysis to get us to think

8 about things, but, you know, I agree with Louis

9 here because if zero is not really -- I mean, we

10 know that's not the answer. I mean, we can all say

11 that.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, it's easy enough

13 for us -- I mean, again, what we have in the blast

14 is a set of buildings that are not economized and

15 economized. We can take the ones that are

16 economized and do things to it, right? One of the

17 things that we're suggesting is just to wholesale

18 cut out this part of the load, right, you know, at

19 a certain ambient temperature.

20 Again, now we can apply then a 30

21 percent, you know, sort of, on top of that, to say

22 that's not going to happen. That's easiest enough
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1 to do, right?

2 MR. STARR: There are things you can just

3 apply a random failure rate of inside the 33

4 percent and then you -- instead of using zero, you

5 have -- I don't know how -- you know, I don't work

6 with the software, but it seems like you could --

7 of the 1,033 buildings you have, pick a random 100

8 and -- 1,033 of them that would have a certain

9 failure rate and see what that number is.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Did you want to say

11 something?

12 MS. COUGHLIN: If there's no -- I guess

13 you can do the same thing (inaudible), right? You

14 just take the failure rate to zero and it could be

15 -- you know, we could do it with no failures and we

16 can do it with all of them off and then --

17 MR. STARR: Right, right.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: -- and then somewhere in

19 between is reality, right, so --

20 MR. STARR: That's not linear, right?

21 MS. COUGHLIN: In this approach it's

22 going to be -- the change is going to be linear,
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1 close enough; but again, you know, I'm concerned

2 that there's the delusion of false precision here,

3 right? We're working with very approximate modeling

4 and very approximate information, so going to the

5 enormous amount of trouble to manipulate those

6 numbers in detail, I don't think, is necessarily a

7 good use of our time.

8 So we're going to get two numbers and the

9 answer is going to be somewhere in between them,

10 and, you know, I think -- hopefully those two

11 numbers won't be too far apart, but I think we

12 should at least look at that before we continue to

13 talk about it, and I think we're going settle on

14 (inaudible).

15 MR. LORD: Maybe get back to what John

16 was saying. You know, I think there's been a lot

17 of improvements on these equipment models, so we

18 take all of those equipment models and we run them

19 through the model with the current (inaudible).

20 Then you do the sensitivity and let's say, okay,

21 let's add more economizers. Does it change the

22 answer? Do you get a quicker payback or a shorter
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1 payback? That's what I think you guys are looking

2 for so then you can go negotiate on that. I mean,

3 if it changes the payback from 20 years to 10

4 years, that's a big change. If it changes it from

5 3 years to 3.2, you don't worry about it.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: The only thing I would

7 say about all this is that we should also have

8 something with a higher failure rate. If we're

9 going to go to zero, we should have something on

10 the other side, so we're not starting at 33 to zero

11 and to be negotiating between those two points, and

12 it's not a big deal to go to the higher number. It

13 seems like we should at least have two points of

14 zero and 66 and somewhere in lies there the number.

15 MR. LORD: I still don't understand the

16 33 percent because when you look at what's required

17 by the standard say by the year 2019, it should be

18 more like 80/90 percent.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: That's -- that's --

20 MR. LORD: It just doesn't make sense. 33

21 percent does not add up.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: These numbers are -- so the
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1 economizers that are in the sample are just as CBEC

2 (phonetic) says it is and not --

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: -- (inaudible), right? And

5 then the failure rate is 30 percent of those still

6 (inaudible). And then, I mean, here we have an

7 estimate of the economizer that's based on CBECs

8 2012 where they did not kind of provide the

9 detailed data of buildings which used -- which used

10 packaged cooling and have economizers in the, sort

11 of, separate buckets, so that's where Greg had to

12 make an assumption.

13 So there's a percentage of buildings with

14 economizers. There's a percentage of floor space

15 with economizers, and there's a percentage of floor

16 space with packaged cooling, and we just kind of

17 multiply them together to get that estimate, but

18 there are a lot of economizers in buildings that

19 don't use the packaged cooling, so that's another

20 thing to keep in mind here.

21 MR. LORD: Well, the other thing is

22 there's a big change in economizer requirements in
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1 2010. That's when we added in zone 3-A, 2-A, you

2 know, I did all the justifications so they make

3 sense. So some of these older buildings didn't

4 have to have economizers. 4-A here, you didn't

5 have to have economizers.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

7 MR. LORD: You do now.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And so --

9 MR. LORD: So in the future when we --

10 you know, when we get to this that's going to

11 require economizers.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. And so we have --

13 again, I mean, we have these new construction

14 cooling load correction factors that we took out of

15 AEO that show, you know, 20 to 40 percent reduction

16 in cooling loads for floor space constructed

17 between 2013 and 2018. So that was already in the

18 analysis.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's why we need --

20 that's where I was going to (inaudible) so we've

21 got to be really careful because if we're going to

22 back stuff out, we're going to back that stuff out,
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1 too, and then all of the sudden you're back to

2 where you started, so -- remember the baseline has

3 this autonomous improvement in building operations,

4 including economizers, but Katie just -- thank you

5 for rattling off the numbers because I didn't have

6 them, but that's a big deal and that continues --

7 the trend continues, right, through the baseline

8 through the end of the analysis period, so it is

9 doing code catch-up and compliance and all that.

10 We can't necessarily put off (inaudible)

11 economizers, but that would still be a big part of

12 what (inaudible) in there, so we've got to be

13 really careful.

14 MR. STARR: Keep in mind, too, the other

15 thing about economizers, of the 65 percent that

16 have failed, 30 or 40 percent have failed because

17 people have just disabled them. It's not the

18 equipment failing, so that's -- that's why in 2020

19 it's not going to be 80/90 percent the economizers

20 are working, it's because of the percentage that

21 are out there, people are disabling because they

22 don't want them to --
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1 MR. LORD: Because it saves energy.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Instead of (inaudible).

3 MR. STARR: Yeah, so that's --

4 MR. LORD: That saves energy.

5 MR. STARR: Well, I would say it's -- in

6 a lot of other findings, it doesn't save energy,

7 so...

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, speaking of saving

9 energy, I think we should do that too. We probably

10 should break for lunch and come back and renew --

11 so it's almost 12:30. What would be the time to

12 return? 1:30, quarter to 2:00?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: 1:30.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: 1:30. Okay. See you all

15 back here at 1:30 rejuvenated or economized in some

16 way.

17

18

19

20

21 (Lunch recess taken.)

22
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to

3 bring it back in here.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Everybody back

5 from lunch?

6 So this is the issue that we left before

7 lunch talking about sensitivity to address the

8 economizing issue. I think everyone digested that

9 over lunch.

10 Not even a chuckle?

11 (Laughter.)

12 MS. HOOTMAN: My God, are you attempting

13 a joke?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: They were chewing on it.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's right.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, God.

17 MR. WINNINGHAM: Perhaps you're

18 economizing --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Anyway, I think there's

20 -- we're starting to get in agreement on doing a

21 sensitivity that will start quantifying sort of the

22 effect of this economizing issue.
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1 We're talking with Andrew and Louis on

2 the way back up here and it seems like, you know,

3 I'll let Katie describe it. But, Dick, maybe you

4 can --

5 MR. LORD: Well, I have just one

6 question. I know all the stuff we've done on the

7 equipment models and that stuff seems to be gelling

8 pretty good. Are you at a point where you're going

9 to turn the crank again here pretty soon?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, we already turned

11 the crank on some of that 15. I think to try to

12 put this issue to bed, I think what's being called

13 for is some sort of analysis trying to quantify

14 what the impact is; right?

15 MR. LORD: No, what I was saying is get

16 the 15 done, get the sub-mat 15, 30-ton done.

17 Any other changes -- we've got on a

18 couple of the models and one of the place with all

19 the other assumptions we've got (inaudible). Then

20 you can start to say, let's do sensitivity 8C off

21 (inaudible).

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.
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1 MR. LORD: Just find out, you know,

2 what's our numbers at right now.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, yes. You'll see

4 that later this afternoon.

5 MR. LORD: Okay.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Or maybe tomorrow, the

7 seven-and-a-half and 15.

8 MR. LORD: Get the 15 done all the way

9 through the sensitivity analysis, the full --

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: All the way through

11 flexible cost. So we have 15, but we haven't done

12 30 yet. That comes next week.

13 So why don't you -- Katie, why don't you

14 explain the sensitivity?

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. This is Katie.

16 Actually, before doing the sensitivity

17 proposal that I have is to do some more detailed

18 analysis of the interviews. So maybe the energy

19 assumption by cooling (inaudible) in low, medium,

20 and high temperature under temperature bins and

21 looking at economized and non-economized building.

22 And that way we can kind of isolate, you
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1 know, if the issue is the cooling load during hours

2 when the ambient temperature is low, we can

3 increase the -- see how much energy is in that

4 area, and then that will give us a starting point

5 from what quantity to assess and what needs to be

6 done.

7 So we can do that and maybe e-mail you

8 guys the results or something during the week so

9 that you have it before the next meeting.

10 And then as far as the sensitivity goes,

11 I really think that the only thing at this point

12 that we would consider doing is in eliminating

13 those low cooling loads from the economized

14 buildings. But I think once I produce this table

15 that already tells you how much energy is involved

16 in that particular segment of the year, we're going

17 to know pretty much what that effect will be.

18 So sensitivity itself may be -- yeah,

19 pushed downstream quite a while until we deal with

20 other issues. So we'll kind of be able to bracket

21 the effect from this other information.

22 MR. STARR: So I --
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Louis Starr.

2 MR. STARR: Yeah, Louis Starr. So it

3 sounds like you come up with that -- our next

4 meeting is when? I forgot.

5 MR. LORD: Next Wednesday.

6 MR. STARR: Okay. So we don't need to do

7 anything in between. Okay. Great.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're proposing to try

9 to get that information to you. I think it's

10 (inaudible) so you have time (inaudible).

11 All right. I think with that I'll hand

12 it over to Detlef to start talking about the

13 engineering analysis, unless there's other issues

14 on the building.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we need an initial

16 vote on this, like, maybe --

17 MR. BANTLE: Further --

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- for the record to do

19 that?

20 MR. BANTLE: So we'll do -- remember from

21 the last meeting: Thumbs up, thumbs sideways,

22 thumbs down on the further more detailed analysis
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1 and then the sensitivity check coming afterwards.

2 Do you have a comment, Louis?

3 MR. STARR: No, no.

4 MR. BANTLE: Let's take a vote of thumbs.

5 (Simultaneous speaking).

6 MALE SPEAKER: I don't think we've done

7 thumbs yet.

8 MR. BANTLE: Oh, we have not done. Okay.

9 So this will be a consensus type of

10 check. If you agree with it, thumbs up. If you're

11 comfortable or abstaining, thumbs sideways. If you

12 do not agree, thumbs down.

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Just like a

14 very precise statement of what we're doing.

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes, thank you. Thank

16 you very much.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the sensitivity,

18 Katie's going to describe, it's the same thing.

19 And Dick, I'm sorry, you can't vote here.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. LORD: Thumbs down vote.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie. Yeah, I'm

2 proposing -- I'm not proposing to do the

3 sensitivity this week. I'm proposing to take the

4 existing analysis and segregate out the energy used

5 to cooling the fan in different ranges of ambient

6 temperature for economized versus non-economized

7 buildings. So that based on that, you can kind of

8 use that summary information to estimate what the

9 effect would be if we made more drastic assumptions

10 about economized performance.

11 So that's what I'm proposing. And then,

12 based on that information, you know, we can, if

13 necessary, define sensitivity much more explicitly

14 that people will be able to accept as kind of the

15 answer on this issue.

16 MR. LORD: Just one question real quick.

17 Greg, are you going to -- did you

18 convince the (inaudible) to post process the

19 economizer (inaudible).

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I guess the first

21 step we're doing is just looking at the load energy

22 use in these temperature bins to get an idea of how
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1 big that load is. And then if it turns out that

2 it's significant and this group wants to take

3 action on it, then we would do the sensitivity that

4 I would think likely involve processing of some

5 sort.

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) right here.

7 Just take the microphone, pull it near you.

8 MALE SPEAKER: Little closer?

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: Because everybody's

10 quiet except for Jill. (Laughter.)

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Say your name.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MALE SPEAKER: She's also got her mic

14 right there.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: My mother would love that

16 (simultaneous speaking) because I was quiet as a

17 kid. Thank you so much.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Harvey, does that answer

19 your question?

20 MR. SACHS: Yes, it does. Thank you.

21 MR. BANTLE: Any other questions before

22 we take this vote?
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Really quick (inaudible)

2 is that for next Wednesday? Is that what's

3 planned?

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, no. The hope is

5 that certainly by next Wednesday, and the hope is

6 to provide you, even before then so everyone has an

7 opportunity to view it before the next meeting.

8 MALE SPEAKER: Thank you.

9 MR. BANTLE: Can we see a show of thumbs

10 on this more in-depth analysis? Okay. Looks like

11 it's unanimous in the room.

12 Any objections from our remote

13 participants? Do we still have our remote

14 participants, Meg and Michael?

15 MS. WALTNER: I vote yes.

16 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Megan is a yes.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Michael from UL, are you

18 there?

19 FEMALE SPEAKER: Mike Terzigni and Mark

20 thumbs up.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Thank you, Michael.

22 FEMALE SPEAKER: And Mike thumbs up.
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1 MR. BANTLE: As well. Okay. Take care.

2 Thank you, everybody.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to

4 move back into the -- backwards in the program so

5 that we can move forward.

6 MR. deLASKI: Now, while we're

7 transitioning here -- this is Andrew deLaski. Just

8 two things I wanted to follow up on from our last

9 meeting: One was that we had a series of legal

10 questions for Eric. I know he's not here right

11 now, but maybe when he comes back in we can ask him

12 to give us an update on what they found and where

13 they're at.

14 And I think also I wanted to ask Nick

15 AHRI also some reference this morning to the date

16 they'll start to come in and help give us a date on

17 when the data collection comes in and exercises

18 that.

19 MR. MISLAK: Yeah, we have most the data.

20 There's still a couple of things we're waiting on,

21 so once we get those -- and it won't take much time

22 to put it all together. So hopefully by the end of
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1 this week or if not sooner.

2 MR. deLASKI: And that -- so the thing at

3 the end of this week, then, you would be turning

4 that data over to the Department --

5 MR. MISLAK: Right.

6 MR. deLASKI: -- would be your -- is the

7 action?

8 MR. MISLAK: Yeah.

9 MR. deLASKI: Right. Okay. Great. Thank

10 you.

11 MALE SPEAKER: I'll move the microphone

12 towards me.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hi, I'm Detlef

14 Westphalen and going to be presenting on the CBAS

15 hearing analysis.

16 So before I launch into this, I just

17 wanted to mention something that I didn't really

18 get to get into in the presentation, but is a topic

19 that probably needs to be addressed before we

20 finish the work, and I'll just introduce it here. 

21 We can put on some discussion for tomorrow or

22 hopefully we will discuss it now, and that is the
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1 issue of the so-called dual duct systems.

2 This is something that, you know, has

3 been under discussion and is in comments from

4 various sources, and we know it was introduced in

5 -- NOPR originally touched on. And I had a comment

6 on potential indications.

7 And ultimately, you know, I think the

8 group needs to decide before we move forward

9 whether, you know, I guess, the proposals coming

10 out of this issue is something.

11 MR. LORD: So just one thing I noticed on

12 the conversion curves. I assume you're adjusting

13 that for the size of the units. It's not the same

14 pressure drop regardless whether it's a 7-ton, a

15 15-ton, or a 30-ton, or if it's the same across --

16 the same pressure drop across all of those units?

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, why don't I back

18 up and -- back to the ducts.

19 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I'd like to

20 have some sense of the magnitude of the dual duct

21 situations, and that's my question, I guess, that

22 leads. Are these 1 percent, 5 percent of
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1 installations intend to be in the larger sizes? In

2 other words, should I worry about the cooling

3 ducts?

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: We don't have

5 information about insurance (inaudible). We know

6 that (inaudible) so -- and to potentially provide

7 information if they have any.

8 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. One

9 other thing to consider is double duct isn't

10 included in the test procedure today; correct?

11 So there's nothing that specifies how you

12 task the condenser side, how you set up the task of

13 the condenser side of a double duct. So that's

14 another issue that must be addressed. John said the

15 testing unit is off the table, so that's something

16 to go around.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think Nick and I

18 talked a little bit earlier about this and so, you

19 know, we're open here what to do with these

20 (coughing) carve them out into a product class, set

21 them aside for now, revisit them when we have a

22 test method. Because it'd still be subject to the
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1 mandatory standards that exist -- one solution.

2 MR. STARR: So you know for, you know,

3 CBSA, which, actually Navigant does in the

4 Northwest, would do a building sample of 200

5 buildings. So the detail of what kind of systems

6 and stuff is in that. I don't know if you should

7 take that sample and project that. I mean, is that

8 of value to you or not -- that information?

9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that is of great

10 value to me.

11 MR. STARR: So maybe -- I think maybe we

12 could talk and figure out how to do this

13 (simultaneous speaking).

14 Certainly Navigant is the people to talk

15 to about when you try to figure out how to split up

16 (coughing) all the kinds of information that we use

17 for programs and things and somewhat types that

18 help us diminish that information. But I'll talk to

19 you afterwards and see maybe how we can get some of

20 that information out and come to some decision.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Okay.

22 MR. TERZIGNI: This is Mark Terzigni with
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1 SMACNA with just a comment. As a -- sheet metal

2 association, I wish they were more popular today. 

3 I haven't seen a dual duct system, and I quote,

4 "modern," since the -- 10 years or longer.

5 They were popular many, many years ago.

6 So you know, I would say dual duct systems are not

7 commonplace or even popular today.

8 MR. THARP: This is Rusty from Goodman.

9 And I'll say, my company doesn't even make the

10 product. We don't sell it. And my perception is

11 it's very, very low volume, less than 1 percent.

12 This is something actually that was sort

13 of addressed in certification that if your product

14 is designed to be able to handle some additional

15 static on the condenser side, then that won't be

16 tested as long as you offer it as -- with the base

17 model.

18 So the only thing we'd be looking at are

19 the products that are specifically designed only to

20 be applied with double duct, all with the condenser

21 duct all the time. And at that point, I've got to

22 think, is very low. I would guess less than 1
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1 percent, but I have no clue.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

3 We offer a product, but, again, the volume is very

4 small.

5 MALE SPEAKER: I think we were familiar

6 with just the Carrier and there were some smaller

7 companies that --

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Right.

9 MALE SPEAKER: -- aren't doing them

10 today.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Done it as a design

12 specialist.

13 MR. MISLAK: And it is common in the

14 docket from a smaller manufacturer that proposes

15 including it into this product loss.

16 So just a -- I just want to re-clarify

17 that, you know, maybe we should contact that

18 company and get their (inaudible).

19 MALE SPEAKER: (Simultaneous speaking).

20 If it comes up --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So -- so I mean, I think

22 this is something we could vote on just to clear it
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1 off the table as we go forward here.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And we would be voting on

3 --

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just like a separate

5 product class for these and setting them aside and

6 focus on the standards, negotiations, who's an

7 option. People -- people and product, place.

8 That's a long suggestion.

9 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. So what's

10 the treatment of these products today?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: We treat the statutory

12 standards.

13 MR. deLASKI: So what's your proposal?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That that stays. But

15 these standards focus on --

16 MR. deLASKI: So these would have -- so

17 you're saying you're proposing to have the existing

18 statutory standard would continue -- the existing

19 standard in Code today would apply?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

21 MR. deLASKI: But whatever we negotiate

22 here would not apply? Check the --
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Would apply to the

2 equipment --

3 MR. deLASKI: But then I guess I'd ask

4 the table because we have had a chance to talk

5 about it, and I don't know if anybody wanted to cut

6 in right now, so --

7 MALE SPEAKER: But in order to comply

8 today, they would actually have to have a waiver,

9 correct, since they're not under the current test

10 procedure?

11 MALE SPEAKER: Well, unless it tested

12 with --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Because it tested at zero

14 static; right? So I guess test them without. 

15 That's probably how manufacturing is certifying

16 today is a zero static and no duct.

17 MR. deLASKI: Is that the answer to that

18 question -- Rusty's question? How do these folks

19 certify today? Maybe Bob can answer.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we source the

21 product. So I don't have all the details, but I

22 believe the tests that I have seen on it is without
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1 the duct. So I believe that's how --

2 MR. deLASKI: Work around -- work around

3 that's been through a waiver or not with a waiver?

4 MR. WHITWELL: No, without a waiver. I'm

5 not aware of a waiver; however, they tested with a

6 duct, but they do have an issue with the higher

7 static motor. So there's -- you know, it's a

8 higher-powered motor on the outdoor side.

9 MR. LORD: Aren't most of these less than

10 5 tons?

11 MR. WHITWELL: Most are --

12 MR. LORD: Most are, yeah.

13 MR. WHITWELL: -- at least for us.

14 MALE SPEAKER: Can you move in front of

15 the mic?

16 MR. LORD: Yeah, sorry. My question was:

17 A lot of these are below 5 tons, which is outside

18 of this room, anyways. There is a few probably

19 (inaudible). That's a different topic.

20 MALE SPEAKER: I was wondering

21 (simultaneous speaking).

22 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I guess we could
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1 decide at the table.

2 MR. deLASKI: Well, I'd like the

3 opportunity for us to be able to talk about it

4 amongst folks who I typically work with before we

5 -- before you vote on something.

6 MALE SPEAKER: That slide, was that just

7 the -- what that one was on --

8 MR. STARR: No, the next slide was on

9 first general discussion.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Quick question for Andrew

11 from Hoffman, do you want to deal with it tomorrow?

12 MR. deLASKI: If we can. Is it an urgent

13 issue?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: It's not an urgent issue.

15 We'll just reflect, yeah, that we'll revisit it.

16 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. I mean, just -- you

17 know, we're not -- I think in general we're not

18 concerned about the small sales. The question is:

19 Does it stay small? So I'm going to need to think

20 that through and understand that.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: And just what we heard
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1 from one company is that statutory standards like

2 that 80 percent that they're claiming 80 percent of

3 the product (inaudible) because of the signage.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because the efficiency went

5 up so high that they couldn't -- yeah.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: It was physically --

7 physically unable --

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, to get it all in

9 there.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you know, the question

11 remains, the claim is anything higher takes away

12 the product is the claim -- I mean, I'm not

13 specifically talking (inaudible). So the question

14 is what we do about that.

15 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The only reason I brought

17 it up is because I don't want to start negotiating

18 and then that comes up as an issue.

19 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, and thank you for

20 flagging it now, and we'll look into it so we can

21 understand it better. But I don't think we really

22 need to talk it through with the big group here.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Moving on.

2 So this slide introduces some of the

3 issues that we discussed at the last meeting that

4 maybe you can give us some guidance on and discuss

5 this. Provisions that are being implemented and are

6 (inaudible).

7 I haven't rehashed all of the issues that

8 I already dealt with, but certainly, you know,

9 we'll get to some of that.

10 Anyways, why don't we take these down.

11 First of all, the single circuit versus dual

12 circuit, single compressor versus dual compressors.

13 Seven-and-a-half ton baseline 1. The analysis now

14 considers one single and dual compressor sort of

15 the baseline for the seven-and-a-half ton. And we

16 -- some looked further and really found that are no

17 single pressing units in -- oh, it's single

18 pressing units at DL-1, and that's based on

19 (inaudible).

20 So we can take a look at that and it's

21 kind of what we found in these (inaudible). The

22 additional -- what we inquired from that one is
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1 additionally from a shipment distribution and that

2 will be out when they try to assemble their

3 analysis.

4 Next issue is the conversion curves, the

5 cost of performance impact. And for that, we

6 decided on (inaudible) converting to a pressure

7 drop. And that would be required at efficiency

8 level 3 or higher for replacements where the

9 existing wasn't (inaudible).

10 MR. STARR: So that's the question I had

11 about that one. So the .2 is fine, but that's .2

12 depending on the size of the equipment; right? If

13 you had zero CFM, you would have zero pressure

14 drop, not .2.

15 So at a 30-ton, maybe .2, but you have to

16 scale it with the fan walls as you back down the

17 CFM at the lower rates; right? For

18 seven-and-a-half, you'll have less pressure drop

19 then a 15-ton, and then a 30-ton.

20 The same way you're (inaudible) that

21 pressure, it's 1.25 for the bigger sizes and it's

22 .75 for the lower size. So the pressure drop, as
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1 you get the smaller units, is less.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, the way we applied

3 this was .2 full-on air flow and we didn't change

4 that from seven-and-a-half versus 15 versus 30. We

5 did for the given unit in operating a continuous

6 air flow was .2.

7 MR. STARR: Well, perhaps the sheet metal

8 guy, Mark Terzigni, who's online can comment on

9 whether --

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Mark.

11 MR. STARR: Mark, there we go, Mark. He's

12 probably commented on those relative pressure drops

13 since he's the sheet metal (inaudible) and also

14 whether that should be scaled based upon the amount

15 of CFM.

16 Because normally that would be -- you

17 know, essentially what you're talking about the

18 smaller and bigger unit is the total amount of air

19 as you get to a lesser air flow, the pressure drops

20 tends to be less.

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: The expectation here is

22 that it's not really frictional loss, it's really
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1 dynamic loss.

2 MR. TERZIGNI: Does it effect --

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah.

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is that?

5 MALE SPEAKER: That's Mark.

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is that you, Mark?

7 MALE SPEAKER: That's Mark from --

8 MR. TERZIGNI: That's Mark Terzigni, the

9 sheet metal guy.

10 (Laughter.)

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you, the sheet

12 metal guy. Let's let you educate us now.

13 MR. STARR: I'd be interested to see what

14 his opinions are on this -- the pressure drops and

15 the difference between a seven-and-a-half, 15, and

16 30-ton whether you will see a similar pressure drop

17 across all those or not.

18 MR. TERZIGNI: For the record,

19 congratulations, you pronounced my last name

20 correctly. Mark works fine.

21 I'm not a sheet metal fabricator, I

22 actually work for SMACNA. I'm an engineer, my
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1 education.

2 But so if you're talking about, quote,

3 "system effect," and you're converting it to a

4 pressure drop of sorts, it's really a function of

5 inlet/outlet condition more than anything, and it's

6 also a potion of the velocity of the air more than

7 the actual air flow itself.

8 So it depends on the size of the opening,

9 let's say, on whether or not you have good inlet or

10 outlet position. So I don't know that the function

11 of the size of the unit effect is what I'm getting

12 at.

13 MR. STARR: Then that -- okay. I'd like

14 to change my opinion, then.

15 So essentially, they always design the

16 outlet velocity in 2,000 increments so the velocity

17 stays the same whether it's at seven-and-a-half,

18 15, or 30-ton unit. So -- and then we start the

19 system in effect.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So -- so Louis, this is

21 Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

22 So since the last meeting, we talked to
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1 our supplier who makes a lot of conversion curves

2 for us, and they have a program that calculates the

3 pressure drop in the curve, and they actually put

4 it on their submittals when they get a bid to

5 provide a conversion curve.

6 And the data that we got from him is that

7 they range from .15 to .7 inches of static

8 depending on configuration and what the inlet and

9 outlet conditions are for the -- for our unit

10 versus the curve that they're managing it to.

11 And so his estimate is that the average

12 would be in the .35 inches range. So somewhat

13 higher than what the number that got thrown out

14 last week.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: He and I would agree; we

16 did the same thing. Jill from Trane, I would

17 agree.

18 MR. STARR: The only thing I -- well, so

19 the number may also be higher, but I would say that

20 those statics they're using are a little bit on the

21 low side, too. So the 1.75 and .75 that they're

22 using at the other site and also -- to some extent.
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1 So the percentages of the pressure drop to the

2 total pressure drop that they have.

3 MR. WHITWELL: But I think that it's

4 still the power required to overcome that external

5 static -- additional external -- so --

6 MR. STARR: You're right. The numbers,

7 yeah. I see what you're saying.

8 MR. WHITWELL: So based on our

9 information, the .2 inches is low, and a number

10 around .35 would be more realistic based on the

11 information that we got from our supplier.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Should that be an issue

13 that goes up for a vote, or --

14 MR. STARR: I guess that, again, probably

15 isn't necessarily heavy. I guess my thought is,

16 yeah, the pressure drop for the conversion curve

17 probably may be higher than that.

18 The other thing about that is the total

19 static seems like it should be an issue, too. To

20 me, the total static is lower and it should also be

21 adjusted upwards.

22 The problem is, if you're going to have
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1 the higher conversion curve static pressure, but

2 you're not going to just up the totals across the

3 range, it's going to make the higher EL levels not

4 look so good.

5 You're going to have more pressure

6 dropped and more energy used with -- so to me, they

7 -- if you were to adjust that number, you also need

8 to adjust the other external static pressures as

9 well.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is something for

11 consideration. I guess, you know, from the

12 contractor's viewpoint in trying to find out, okay,

13 what numbers should we plug into our analysis to

14 turn the crank? We can certainly, you know, make a

15 decision, but they're the sensitivity stuff.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. STARR: The other point, too, is

18 while they may sell their conversion curves

19 anywhere from .15 to .7, they can design those so

20 that they have a reasonable amount of pressure

21 drop. Because I have a sense of --

22 MR. WHITWELL: They'll get bigger.
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1 MR. STARR: Well, but, I mean, is there

2 -- so the system effect is basically how they come

3 out of the fan, they come in the direction the air

4 is rotating, or are they going backwards to that --

5 some extent those can be -- those are somewhat of a

6 selection of what the -- a good design is or not.

7 So unfortunately, the engineer sometimes

8 do a bad design, but if they're going in the right

9 direction, can they do something lower and

10 something more reasonable like .2?

11 MR. LORD: (Inaudible). Sometimes you've

12 got units and we've got a lot of them where you

13 have a long, skinny duct and you've got to go to a

14 square duct and you've got to do strange things.

15 MR. STARR: But some of these --

16 MR. LORD: (Inaudible) put cables in

17 there and tell them where to go.

18 MR. STARR: But some -- just the thing

19 that you described would happen with any of the

20 unit regardless of DL-3; right? It could be DL-1

21 and 2?

22 MR. LORD: Oh, no, you don't need a
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1 (inaudible).

2 MR. STARR: Well, like a square

3 attachment?

4 MR. LORD: No, it fits onto a curve.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Eileen Hoffman. So

6 what does the group want to do given the

7 discussion?

8 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. And I have

9 no -- I have no way to validate .2 versus .35, you

10 know. I just don't have any source other than, you

11 know --

12 So what I would ask is that the

13 contractor take the information that Bob provided

14 and that Jill provided earlier today and to that --

15 to maybe be -- have -- get the contacts so there's

16 wires and see if there's a way. I mean, I would --

17 I would -- I would ask the department to further

18 investigate the number.

19 MR. TERZIGNI: The other thing -- this is

20 Mark Terzigni -- I would tend to lean towards the

21 higher number. But if it helps, I could reach out

22 to the network of actual KM contractors and try and
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1 get you guys some real world measurements.

2 Unfortunately, it's sometimes tough to

3 equate to or (inaudible) with respect to direct

4 inches to water and as these changes occur. But we

5 have ways of, I'll say guesstimating -- I don't

6 want to say measuring -- that exact amount.

7 So I could reach out to that -- and get

8 that back to the group if you don't want to take a

9 vote on it today.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Sounds good to me.

11 Is that a sense of the group, we will get

12 more information? Mark and the contractor and

13 Navigant and a number of other folks you mentioned

14 to get involved? And when would you be able to

15 come back with a figure?

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess I'll be

17 chasing down the contacts of Bob and Jill --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Bob and Jill, any idea when

19 --

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh, you said the same

21 one.

22 MALE SPEAKER: Different, different.
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1 MR. TERZIGNI: I could try and have some

2 stuff by tomorrow.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: That's Mark; right?

4 (Simultaneous speaking.) So you'll have it done

5 tomorrow?

6 MR. TERZIGNI: Yeah.

7 MALE SPEAKER: So we do get two different

8 suppliers --

9 MR. TERZIGNI: I'll send an e-mail

10 tomorrow and see if I can get some kind of

11 collective information, if not by tomorrow,

12 certainly by --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: By the next --

14 MR. TERZIGNI: -- certainly by the next

15 meeting.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from

17 Carrier. I have to check with our supplier, but

18 I'll ask him if he's willing to talk to Navigant

19 and then if I can give you his contact information,

20 provided I get an affirmative answer.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Good. So is it realistic

22 to try for tomorrow or at least by the next meeting
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1 after tomorrow?

2 MALE SPEAKER: Well, we're not going to

3 be here tomorrow.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, probably -- tomorrow

5 -- I mean, by the time we get the response and then

6 Navigant has a chance to talk to him. I think next

7 meeting is more realistic.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So next meeting.

9 We'll put you on the agenda.

10 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say

11 is, while Mark Terzigni is looking at that curve

12 pressure drop, it also could in ideal get the

13 external pressure which he seemed to have a sense

14 of as well. Which the tab guys can ask about that

15 one, they can also ask about the typical external

16 static pressures for seven-and-a-half, 15, and

17 30-ton units of CC. What those are realistic

18 numbers, not --

19 One of the things I have about it is

20 those, you know, in a lot of those systems, you

21 would have the supply network and you would also

22 have a return network and those numbers here seem
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1 pretty low in terms of what I've seen as a design

2 engineer and the design engineers are currently

3 working, and that's pretty low numbers in general. 

4 And really those relative magnitudes, the pressure

5 drop in the curves to the total static pressure is

6 a pretty important number.

7 So I'd like both of those to be

8 (inaudible).

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Mark, if that's

10 something that you can ask about as well, or --

11 MR. TERZIGNI: Sure.

12 MALE SPEAKER: Do you want it broken

13 down?

14 MR. TERZIGNI: So 7.5, 15, 30-ton units,

15 and you want total static pressure. I can even ask

16 if they have data on supply returns or plan

17 returns.

18 I mean, I'll just try and break it down

19 as specifically as I can for you.

20 MR. STARR: Yeah, and it's really just

21 supply and return added together in the system

22 (coughing) unit.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: So do we want Mark to give

2 it directly to the working group or to Navigant?

3 MALE SPEAKER: Navigant.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Navigant? Okay.

5 And our deadline is the -- the next full

6 meeting, which is May 20, unless you get it sooner.

7 Okay?

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And we did a

9 quick search of the Air Movement and Control

10 Association website and didn't find the standard

11 relating to curves. It might be worth a call to

12 Mike Ivanovich there.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Probably -- (simultaneous

14 speaking.)

15 MR. TERZIGNI: In a valid conditions. We

16 represent our design manuals as well. And we

17 actually have a whole section on how fans are

18 measured and then how they are sold and how there's

19 a significant difference between the two.

20 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken. Thank you.

21 MR. deLASKI: So this is Andrew. I have

22 a related -- on the conversion curve question -- a
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1 related issue on conversion curves.

2 In our last meeting, I thought I heard

3 some of the manufacturers say that you may have a

4 conversion curve in the base case.

5 So if I have a Manufacturer X unit on the

6 roof today, but I'm Manufacturer Y and I get that

7 sale, I get that replacement, then there may be a

8 conversion curve involved. So the question I have

9 for you is: Are you capturing conversion curves in

10 the base case?

11 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that would be part

12 of the LDL analysis.

13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So I flag that for a

14 question for LDL.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Although, we would have to

16 provide the recalculated formulations that can be

17 used for the sale extensions.

18 MR. WHITWELL: But Andrew, I think it's

19 true there could be conversion curves in the base

20 case if you're replacing a unit with someone else's

21 unit. But you're going to have that same situation

22 in the -- let's say in the other EL levels as well.
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1 The difference -- so those would wash.

2 The difference is where if you, at the

3 higher EL levels where everything gets bigger,

4 including a manufacturer, if he's replacing his own

5 unit and the unit is larger in order to get the

6 higher efficiency level. In that case, everything's

7 going to have a conversion curve. Do you follow me?

8 MR. deLASKI: Right. But it's 20 percent

9 to have a converse curve in the base case.

10 MR. WHITWELL: 20 percent plus an extra

11 --

12 MR. deLASKI: Right.

13 MR. WHITWELL: -- plus everything else.

14 It's -- so 100 percent could have the

15 converse curve in the higher EL levels.

16 MR. deLASKI: Right -- and this is Andrew

17 again -- but you'd want to capture the one base

18 case.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Oh, I got you. So

20 it's not 100 percent in the EL, it's some --

21 MR. deLASKI: Right.

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- percentage that --
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1 MR. deLASKI: Does that make sense to you

2 guys? (Simultaneous speaking.)

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so a new

4 construction would not retrofit -- may or may not

5 depending on whether -- what's being retrofitted.

6 MR. STARR: So basically, it's basically

7 an 80/20 split; right? 80 percent market

8 replacement and 80 percent of the --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But if I'm

10 replacing one of my units in a replacement, I don't

11 need a curve because it's the same size. It's been

12 the same size for 30 years for the base.

13 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark here from SMACNA, and

14 one of the issues that we've come across talking to

15 contractors is generally more efficient units are

16 larger in size, and as you replace an older unit

17 with a newer unit, you have less space to have

18 those good inlet and outlet conditions.

19 So sometimes they really need -- I can

20 actually think of one case where they put another

21 unit in there and they couldn't get enough air

22 through the system because of the actual traffic
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1 difference in the original equipment size in the

2 new, quote, "more efficient" equipment size. They

3 couldn't get the air flowing through it because of

4 the effect created.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so just following up

6 on your comment, Andrew, is -- yeah, I think we

7 have to come up with some number. I don't know

8 whether it's 20 percent or something that would not

9 -- that would have the conversion curve in either

10 case.

11 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

12 MALE SPEAKER: I guess --

13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know what that

14 number would be --

15 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) that number --

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. WHITWELL: 20 percent could be

18 because I don't know what other number to put out

19 there.

20 MR. deLASKI: It's not zero; it's not

21 100.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, replacements are 80
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1 percent, but what percentage of replacements get

2 replaced by the same manufacturer? Probably a

3 fairly good percentage of those, so 20.

4 MR. deLASKI: So lacking other data, I'm

5 fine to replace or --

6 MR. LORD: This is part in, I guess --

7 Bob, I was a little surprised by your saying we

8 would be using the same curve sized base units for

9 30 years.

10 MR. WHITWELL: 30 years is probably an

11 exaggeration, but it goes back to --

12 MALE SPEAKER: At least 25 --

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I --

14 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, our base units

15 have not changed size very much (simultaneous

16 speaking).

17 MR. SACHS: Fairly large changes in

18 (inaudible) since 1999 since both the base --

19 (inaudible.)

20 MR. WHITWELL: The TCs --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So make sure that the

22 openings --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- make sure the openings

3 are still the same. So they might cantilever, they

4 might grow higher, but it's really important to be

5 able to replace them ourselves. So we do a lot of

6 -- lot of things to make sure that that still stays

7 in that same.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Thank you,

9 Jill.

10 MR. WHITWELL: And technology --

11 compressor technology has improved, heater

12 exchanger technology has improved, motor and fan

13 technology. And so --

14 MR. SACHS: So it's not a zero sum game?

15 MR. WHITWELL: It costs -- it all costs

16 money.

17 MR. deLASKI: I mean, it does raise the

18 question about again, are we voting in on

19 non-conservatism here? Because there's a lot of

20 incentive to not have that conversion curve. And

21 if we're building it in at EL-3, but it may be that

22 it may be avoided in some instances.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, the units that are

2 out there now that hit those levels are bigger.

3 MR. deLASKI: I get it. But I get that

4 there are strong market incentives to try to find

5 ways to not have a curve. But I can't tell you how

6 to do it, so --

7 MR. SACHS: You can look at -- some of

8 those EL-3s doubled in size.

9 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

10 MR. SACHS: That's pretty big.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: We're at the end of the

12 25-year life.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. deLASKI: Fully amortized.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: So we talked about the

17 performance aspects, the cost aspects, and what

18 we'll be talking about later. And so we, you know,

19 input that special (inaudible).

20 Moving onto the next issue, the

21 additional efficiency levels. We decided to, you

22 know, rename some of these efficiency levels such
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1 that we don't have to get numbers such as the .25.

2 So we now have a 2.5 in between what was

3 the EL-2 and the EL-3, and we have an EL-3.5 from

4 the seven-and-a-half and the 15-ton analyses which

5 are .721 above the -- above the (inaudible).

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But 30-ton is what? So

7 what is it?

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: There is no new

9 additional .5 in there. The EL-4 was most recently

10 named EL-3.1. In the NOPR, it was 4. So we're

11 going back to, you know, 4 for that just to -- so

12 that's EL-4 and then EL-5 is the maximum.

13 So here the only additional input is

14 whether everybody's satisfied with this list of

15 efficiency levels and different variants.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Any discussion? Should we

17 take a temperature check? Is this not

18 controversial? Is this agreeable?

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Some of these specific

20 levels are incapable and I think further on, and I

21 imagine --

22 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem.
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1 I'd like to do an industry caucus on this for a few

2 minutes.

3 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. No

4 objection, of course. But this is what we asked

5 you to do last night.

6 So you're doing what the group asked you

7 to do last night and there's nothing that -- not

8 giving you any judgment at all, but what we asked

9 you to do (inaudible).

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: So the only exact

11 (inaudible) or 3 or exactly pinpoint 2 and 3.

12 MR. deLASKI: Yeah.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: But, you know, the

14 numbers are in particular --

15 MR. deLASKI: Right.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- further on, you know.

17 For instance, this is the 15 turns to EL-2.5 and

18 then (inaudible) for 7, for instance.

19 MR. deLASKI: We discussed the method for

20 this last time. And you said basically -- we

21 agreed -- it's discussed. Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Does the group -- the
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1 industry group need to take a conference now? We

2 can take a break and -- just asking, how long would

3 you need, Karen?

4 MS. MEYERS: Like just a quick 10

5 minutes.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Why don't we

7 take a 10 minute -- well, let's say 15 for

8 realistic purposes -- a 15-minute break. And the

9 industry can talk and hold caucus. And everyone

10 else can also discuss with them if they wish, and

11 we'll come back in 15 minutes. So we're now off

12 the record.

13 (Recess.)

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Karen, when we last left,

15 you had a caucus. Do you have something to report

16 back?

17 MS. MEYERS: We didn't talk about who was

18 going to report back. Go ahead, please.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Just say who you are then

20 for the transcript.

21 MR. MISLAK: Sure. Nick Mislak, HRI.

22 We're fine with the levels as proposed.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: I think maybe we -- see if

2 we have consensus. Can we see if you're in

3 agreement with the levels as proposed?

4 MR. WHITWELL: For the additional

5 analysis?

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, so thumbs, please.

7 (Off-the-record conversation)

8 MR. BANTLE: Were there any thumbs down?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Any thumbs down?

10 (No response.)

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Moving on. So this

13 slide gives a summary of the some of the things

14 that we've been working on since the last meeting. 

15 We have had added analyses for the additional

16 efficiency levels and models and Line 2 compressors

17 and the half ton based upon models, the two and a

18 half and the three and a half is small and large

19 classes.

20 We have made some slight adjustments with

21 some of the 15-ton results. We have developed

22 energy-use results for the seven-and-a-half ton
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1 models and the work on the 30-ton models is

2 (speaking under breath).

3 One point on the 30 ton, the baseline EL

4 has been raised to 10.6. That was at a 10.1, but

5 there really aren't models at 10.1, at least not

6 where we can understand what the design details

7 are.

8 We have evaluated the differences between

9 the VAV and the staged air volume for 15-ton EL-3.

10 We used this as an example, and this was an

11 analysis we did just to take a look at the question

12 for downstream analysis. When I get into this part

13 of discussion, there will be more on this but this

14 was about (speaking under breath).

15 We have identified two specific

16 manufacturers which of their models were the basis

17 for the 15-ton analysis and seven-and-a-half and

18 30. Probably as of today, because the results are

19 here and I'll be informing various people of that

20 and -- the 30 tons and will make sure everybody

21 knows about that as well.

22 This does get into a question about how
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1 -- any information on feedback we get from the

2 manufacturers and informed which models of theirs,

3 how we would work that back with the analyses.

4 I think that might depend on individual

5 discussions with them, because I can see this

6 getting into a situation where we say, okay, well,

7 if this number (inaudible), this profile is

8 (inaudible), well, tell me the (inaudible) get me

9 back to the same IEER and then it's like, show me

10 anybody else (inaudible).

11 I want to be sensitive to that, but on

12 the other hand I want to make sure what we're

13 presenting is representative.

14 So I don't know if anybody has any

15 comments on that. Certainly I might deal with that

16 on a one-by-one basis with the manufacturers

17 themselves if everybody is okay with that.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: The goal (inaudible) is

19 that whatever of the models you picked from us,

20 that they're mostly representative of where we're

21 going here with what we're including in the

22 analysis; right?
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: The intent is that they

2 be representative of the way most everybody's units

3 look at those efficiency levels.

4 MR. WHITWELL: So you thought, well, if

5 you're evaluating catalog data and deciding that,

6 right, you're making some selections based on what

7 you think is most representative or are you asking

8 us to give input on what's most representative?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, typically when we

10 look at 15 tons and again at an efficiency level,

11 we talked about this at the previous meeting, that

12 at an EL-1 level, I can find a few models at that

13 target IEER.

14 But when we get to the higher levels and

15 the higher tonnages, it's much more difficult. I

16 may only have one that's at that target IEER level,

17 so it's not like I can compare different

18 manufacturers on this.

19 So we get to a problem here we want to be

20 representative, but we want to base it on real

21 units where people are comfortable this is what

22 they're actually performing. We don't want to put
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1 everybody's business front and center, so it's kind

2 of a difficult situation, which I'm to conclude

3 (inaudible).

4 Certainly if you have recommendations on

5 the way to deal with these issues, mention it

6 publicly or mention it privately, I'll treat those

7 communications as confidential, even if we don't

8 have nondisclosure agreements on them. I want to

9 be sensitive to the concerns, but I also want to

10 make sure we get an analysis that works.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I think they should

12 be treated privately with the manufacturers.

13 MALE SPEAKER: You haven't talked about

14 this much yet, but once you get 30 tons and above,

15 a lot of units out there today are VAV units and

16 they're not modeled after a true VAV unit.

17 Have you thought any about that or -- I

18 know we use statistics on it, but -- I mean,

19 there's EL-0 today as VAV units (inaudible).

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we have some

21 slides to talk about --

22 MALE SPEAKER: You got some (inaudible).
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- VAV and 30 tons.

2 Moving on we have -- we did some review

3 of unit-size trends, looking at the curve size and

4 we have some results of that review in some of the

5 slides we're going to show. Moving on to cost,

6 we've refined the cost curves as seven-and-a-half

7 and 50 tons (coughing).

8 We developed cost per -- well, that's

9 perhaps a strong statement. We developed some cost

10 data for the 30-ton models and we're prepared to

11 show that and have -- try to get some feedback on

12 how to move forward with developing curves for

13 those. We've also developed shipping cost and

14 energy and (speaking under breath).

15 So the next nine slides are essentially

16 repeating some of the material that we saw last

17 time, the 15 tons (inaudible).

18 I don't know how much detail you want to

19 get into here, but for each of classes, we have the

20 different efficiency levels, descriptions of the

21 units that were the basis of the analysis.

22 First of all (inaudible), airflows,
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1 information on compressors, whether or not they're

2 a single circuit, and higher efficiency levels of

3 single circuit. For instance, (inaudible) shows

4 two compressors operating three stages of a single

5 (inaudible) circuit.

6 The second of each set of three here has

7 information on the outdoor side, the heat

8 exchanger, and the fan. The third of these sets of

9 three has information on the indoor heat exchangers

10 (inaudible).

11 There's a lot of data here. I wouldn't

12 expect that we would necessarily be getting into it

13 right here and now. Certainly, you could take a

14 look at it tonight (inaudible), if you'd like to do

15 that. If you have thoughts on it right off the bat,

16 we can talk about that now, too, so

17 seven-and-a-half ton.

18 Then we have the selections that we think

19 will be the basis of the 30-ton analyses. Hopefully

20 when we go through the analyses, these selections

21 will make sense and we can come together and we

22 will have descriptions (inaudible) of these units
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1 and the different conditions that are needed for a

2 downstream analysis, but it's possible we'll have

3 to make a change here.

4 MR. ZENDAH: I have a question -- Sami

5 Zendah of Emerson -- where did you get the

6 selections as far as combinations of products,

7 (inaudible), what's your source?

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: These are all units that

9 are on the same (inaudible). We get sufficient

10 information from product literature to develop

11 (inaudible) in the downstream analysis.

12 MR. ZENDAH: So those are existing

13 products in the market?

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. So before

15 I move on to the next topic, I don't know if

16 anybody wants to discuss any of the details here

17 now or -- actually we can do that tomorrow if we

18 needed.

19 MR. THARP: This is Rusty.

20 The ones where you say the adjusted using

21 (inaudible), can you be specific about how you

22 adjusted it? Is it just space area and density?
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Typically space area and

2 density and -- and I think what we did was we tried

3 to adjust both of those in order to maintain the

4 same pressure drops so that the fan power would be

5 less likely to be affected by that change.

6 MR. THARP: My understanding is that the

7 original analysis that normally smooth tube was

8 used in the simulation program; is that still the

9 case?

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are Rifle 2.

11 MR. THARP: Everything is Rifle 2. Do

12 you have details about what the internal fan

13 heighth is, what the helix angle is, what the

14 enhancement profile is of the internal enhancement?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't.

16 Long, I don't know if you want to talk to

17 that or --

18 MR. HUANG: We can set it up. Those are

19 based on the representative (inaudible) where those

20 information that are available being correlation

21 (inaudible), so we think representative...

22 MALE SPEAKER: Can you be more specific
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1 about the correlation literature?

2 MALE SPEAKER: We can send out the

3 references for that specific correlation. (Speaking

4 under breath).

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: You need to get closer

6 to the microphone. Your mouth closer to the

7 microphone.

8 (Off-the-record discussion)

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: So, Rusty, just to be

10 clear, you're interested in correlations for

11 internal refrigerant (inaudible) can be transferred

12 with (inaudible) configurations?

13 MR. THARP: Yes, that's correct.

14 MALE SPEAKER: So, Detlef -- sorry, go

15 ahead.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess one other piece

17 of information would be good to know (inaudible) is

18 the number of circuits in each specific coil for

19 both the outdoor and the indoor. I know on the

20 indoor side, you used (inaudible), correct -- I'm

21 sorry, Rosecliff design?

22 MALE SPEAKER: Front, back -- well,
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1 front, back.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Can you describe the

3 circuitry used in the outdoor-heat exchanger?

4 MR. HUANG: With an outdoor (inaudible)?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me, did you want to

6 answer that? Yeah, thank you.

7 MR. HUANG: This is Long Huang from

8 Navigant. So (inaudible) circuitry based on

9 (inaudible) units and number varied case by case,

10 but we tried to approximate it depending on the

11 number of circuitries.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: But were the two

13 compressor circuits arranged top, bottom on the

14 condenser --

15 MR. HUANG: Internal stuff, compressor

16 circuits. In fact, I'm ordering units as top,

17 bottom.

18 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). I notice

19 your CFMs could use -- baseline up to (inaudible)

20 and they ranged from 290 CFM per ton to almost 400.

21 Any reason why you're doing that?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, these are -- for
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1 those particular units with those ratings, these

2 are the rated airflows --

3 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- (inaudible).

5 MALE SPEAKER: People can rate whatever

6 they want. I was just curious. That's probably

7 what I thought you were doing, other than your --

8 your EL-5 looks kind of strange. That's a 36-ton

9 unit, that's 135, that seems like a lot of

10 capacity.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: For the 30-ton analysis,

12 there were precious few selections of the EL-5, and

13 so we sort of extended the envelope.

14 MALE SPEAKER: Not that it hurts, because

15 he's going to -- Greg runs it, he's going to ratio

16 it. He'll have fewer units, I assume.

17 MR. HUANG: Right. Unless I'm going from

18 -- I mean, this is the Nominal 40. Unless -- the

19 Nominal 40 is really not representative of the way

20 a 30 works. I would think that relative...

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: So in all the case of

22 these units, I'm assuming this is a -- is that a
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1 fan motor with a VFD on it and turned down 30

2 percent of the airflow, is that kind of the basis

3 of the airflow characteristics for the fan?

4 MALE SPEAKER: So 30 ton now, we have --

5 some of these are --

6 (Off-the-record discussion)

7 MR. STARR: I was just talking to Nick

8 here about -- so some of these are 2-speed fans,

9 and so a 30-ton unit you're assuming kind of a

10 constant-volume system and it has two speeds; is

11 that right?

12 MALE SPEAKER: You can. What some people

13 do -- you can't buy two-speed motors anymore. So

14 they put a VFD on it. On a VFD, there's a switch

15 (inaudible). So if I want to go Speed 1 or Speed

16 2, you need to program it. To program it I think

17 about 66 percent speed...

18 MR. STARR: So in this case there's a

19 fair amount -- once you start getting 30 tons of

20 (inaudible), you're actually having a xxx VNV

21 system for ductwork that are connected to VAV

22 boxes. Is this split out in this mix or this just
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1 deceiving all kind of retail space?

2 Your typical office building, right, it's

3 going to have a bunch of VNV boxes and that's not

4 going to be a two-speed fan is going to work there?

5 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that was my question

6 earlier. I mean, even today those units are VAV

7 with boxes and things like that and they have

8 variable speed fans today.

9 So you're going to have some 30-ton units

10 that probably are constant volume and could go two

11 speeds. Some are 4 VAV with four channels.

12 MR. STARR: So this primarily looking at

13 the segment of the margin, appears you could

14 potentially --

15 MALE SPEAKER: Less likely. I think you

16 had it there. Some of those units like the 30 ton,

17 like EL-2.5, that's a four-stage unit, that's a

18 full VAV unit you're looking at there.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Could be. Right. Could

20 be. We offer both. We have units that are

21 traditional VAV, but we also have the stage

22 (inaudible) volume in that size.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Keep in mind, when you do

2 full VAV in those stages, right (inaudible).

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: We'll get more into it.

4 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell.

5 For example, if we go to Slide 24, I just

6 want to understand terminology.

7 So, for example, EL-2, CAV, it shows

8 214-square-inch face area, 17 (inaudible) per inch,

9 two times two; so does that mean there's two

10 circuits, each one is 21.4 for a total of 42.8

11 square feet, face area?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think so.

13 Long, am I right?

14 MR. HUANG: Yes, this is Long from

15 Navigant.

16 So the two by two, the first tube means

17 every (inaudible) gets two rows. The second tube,

18 there are two elements...

19 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Where's the indoor fan

21 slide?

22 MR. STARR: So on that one, you don't
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1 split out the motor like you did, the outdoor fan. 

2 Is it all PCS motors?

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, these are indoor.

4 These would all be three units.

5 (Off-the-record discussion)

6 MR. WHITWELL: So these would be

7 induction motors with VFDs. Where you see SAV or

8 VAV, they're going to be induction motors with

9 VFDs. These would not be -- there would not be any

10 ECM motors on these units. It's too big.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, that's right. It's

12 over about three hoursepower --

13 (Simultaneous speaking)

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, essentially above

15 one hoursepower, they're not going to happen.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, there are some

17 ECMs for the outdoor fans.

18 MALE SPEAKER: Any other questions?

19 MR. ZENDAH: I got one more, please.

20 Sami Zendah of Emerson.

21 So, for example, the EL-4 says the two

22 stages -- I see two different compressors. One
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1 (inaudible) should three be stages, is there like

2 even (inaudible) put together in one circuit --

3 MALE SPEAKER: It's our understanding

4 this is staged as a two stage.

5 MR. ZENDAH: Should be three; right?

6 MALE SPEAKER: Could be three.

7 MR. ZENDAH: I'm sorry, do you

8 understand, I have a chance to simulate some of

9 this stuff, that's why I'm asking.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, no. As I say, we

11 haven't worked through all of these analyses. It's

12 our understanding that unit is two stages.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's two stages in tandem,

14 the one I'm thinking of, the pair.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: No other questions on

16 the descriptions.

17 So in the previous meetings, we went into

18 some detail looking at some of the -- on wattage

19 breakdowns, by the calculations and the

20 (inaudible).

21 I haven't looked at -- into the

22 presentation. I've got handouts for that in case
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1 anybody wants to look at it. I can email or give

2 it to the group these handouts so that everybody

3 has them.

4 So there's one for the seven and a half

5 and one for the 15, and it shows each of the ELs

6 and combinations that we looked at, the component

7 wattage -- component wattage profile that gets to

8 the IEER that we calculated showing that it meets

9 the target with some tolerance.

10 Then the last page shows the performance

11 correlations within the display (inaudible) that in

12 their models to represent the performance.

13 Again this is a lot of information

14 potentially to digest, so if something

15 (inaudible)...

16 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall with PG&E.

17 Maybe you could just walk us through

18 once, so we make sure we understand the

19 nomenclature and the procedure. I think I do, but

20 I just want to make sure I do.

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: I can go to -- is there

22 another summary here -- it's a similar type of
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1 wattage profile. It shows the calculation and so

2 these are basically the -- representing the test

3 points that are to be conducted and (inaudible) at

4 the 95 and 100-percent capacity, and then you have

5 the lower temperatures and the partial.

6 In showing the capacity at each of those

7 loading points and a power of (inaudible)

8 components showing IEER, then according to the IEER

9 calculation, either the interpolation or the

10 adjustment for (inaudible) performance to get the

11 IEER that will be used in the weighted-average

12 equation at the 75 percent, 50 percent, and 25

13 percent loading points and then shows the overall

14 calculated IEER (inaudible)...

15 So we have this for each of the modeled

16 efficiency levels, multiple (speaking under

17 breath).

18 So rather than get into the nitty-gritty

19 of those (inaudible) now, we'll reserve some time

20 tomorrow if anybody has any questions on that...

21 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, you've already

22 shared this with the manufacturer through the
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1 equipment you selected to start to get feedback on

2 this, yes?

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not for the

4 seven-and-a-half tons. For the 15 tons, it's all

5 (inaudible) with some slight modifications for some

6 of them with what we already show.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Seven-and-a-half ton is

8 coming?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Seven-and-a-half ton I

10 will...

11 MR. WHITWELL: So in the next couple

12 days?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. When we get to

14 the 30 tons, (inaudible).

15 So the next line here the correlations

16 from (inaudible), we developed these first four --

17 the test which gives the IEER rating. We then made

18 adjustments consistent with the different external

19 static pressures.

20 In evaluating the downstream analysis, I

21 (inaudible) and then with the additional .2

22 external static version curve of the higher
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1 efficiency levels.

2 Basically this just increases fan power

3 and corresponding (inaudible) as a (speaking under

4 breath) and provided all of those different

5 correlations (inaudible) analysis.

6 Any questions on that?

7 Next thing I mentioned the -- I conducted

8 some review of different size trends looking at the

9 potential needs of conversion curves and we have

10 three plots for seven-and-a-half ton, 15, and 30

11 showing, not for every manufacturer but for some

12 key manufactuers, the curve area is where the -- as

13 the function of -- well, IEER is a function of the

14 curve area.

15 We also show in these plots which of

16 these units use (inaudible) and -- so at this

17 point, we haven't really affirmatively concluded

18 whether this definitively says EL-3 was the right

19 choice to apply to a conversion curve. That might

20 be up for debate.

21 There might be questions about whether

22 these are the right capacities we wish to represent
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1 curve sizes for the small, large, and very large

2 classes.

3 If you look at these, one would conclude

4 that maybe there's not quite as much growth in

5 curve size as one might think, which is consistent

6 with what Bob said earlier that curve sizes have

7 all been pretty much the same.

8 Seven and a half here, you can see

9 Manufacture A going up to roughly EL-4 is a

10 significant curve size change. For Manufacturer C,

11 there's significant curve size change going to 12

12 IEER, which is between the baseline.

13 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA.

14 So in reading this chart, you should go

15 with the color and then you can see the area

16 getting bigger on the right, you're also seeing an

17 increase in size in the IEER; is that the

18 correlation you're looking for?

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes, the

20 expectation was that you'd see some pretty

21 consistent jumps in each of these.

22 MR. STARR: In other words, a straight
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1 line or an approximation of a straight line within

2 the given color, you would expect to see -- as you

3 would a higher efficiency, you can see the greater

4 curve area. What's changing that is the

5 microchannel in this case potentially or not? I

6 mean, you can't necessarily make that --

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would expect to see

8 steps where you have particular box sizes --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but you haven't

10 really done that here, because you picked a

11 seven-and-a-half ton and that shares a box usually

12 -- that shares a box usually with a 10 ton, then

13 there's the break for the 12-and-a-half tone, or

14 something like that. You really haven't really

15 gone across the product line where you naturally

16 see these breaks and...

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes. Why don't we

18 say that okay, we should do this investigation at

19 different capacity limits to see whether -- do we

20 see something similar in 10 or 12 and a half.

21 So then at 15 ton --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I can just say for like
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1 myself, a seven and a half and 10 ton are in the

2 same cabinet. The seven-and-a-half ton's kind of

3 -- it's at that 10 ton that break to 10 to 12 and a

4 half or the larger I have more efficiency of that

5 10 ton is where you're going to have the break to

6 another -- to another cabinet, to another curve

7 issue.

8 This isn't always going to be the same

9 for everybody, but that's just where that kind of

10 lies, same thing with the 15. The 15 is kind of

11 small in the cabinet, it goes up to a 17 and a

12 half. You start to reach max cabinet size, you're

13 going to change cabinet size and curve size

14 matching up at that point.

15 You're kind of looking at, in my

16 perspective, the best of the options, not the worst

17 of the options.

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: In other words what

19 you're saying is that depending on where you have

20 the box jump today, that will say from that

21 particular manufacturer what this (inaudible).

22 So if your box is big for the capacity,
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1 it's not going to change (inaudible). If your box

2 is small in capacity, it will jump at (inaudible).

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So like a 10 ton -- 10 ton

4 for us today, the sort of low efficiency and medium

5 efficiency are one cabinet, jumps to another whole

6 cabinet for a (inaudible) efficiency.

7 So it can't go -- a 10 ton can't be

8 replaced high efficiency on the old curve. I mean,

9 we already have that.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. I understand. I'm

11 just -- this is just some initial investigation we

12 did in order to try to get a better handle on what

13 these levels may start to require for a conversion

14 curve, and so (speaking under breath).

15 I'm just going to make the observation.

16 It sounds like in some of the EL3s, you're not

17 going to have a jump just based upon cabinet sizes. 

18 Take the seven-and-a-half ton unit, right, it

19 sounds like you're not going to have a conversion

20 curve switching up to higher efficiency in that one

21 but maybe other ones you would.

22 So it seems like you almost have to do a
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1 little bit of analysis of figuring out which she's

2 suggesting where the breaks are and the cabinet

3 sizes.

4 We have sizes changing up at that time,

5 then that's what you need a conversion curve at. It

6 doesn't seem like you just need them every time

7 you're at EL-3.

8 Am I making the right conclusion there or

9 am I missing something?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, what I was saying is

11 that my -- the low and medium efficiencies are

12 going to go away of we go to EL-3, so all of them

13 would have a conversion curve because that already

14 is a bigger unit for me, bigger cabinet, so nobody

15 could match up. I couldn't even match myself. I

16 will be in a conversion curve no matter what at

17 that 10 ton, and that's just using one as an

18 example that I know of today.

19 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. In the 10

20 ton, right, so what you were -- before --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just what I know off

22 the top of my head right now, Andrew --
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1 MR. deLASKI: As an example, this is a

2 seven-and-a-half ton, you don't see it. But if you

3 go to a 10 ton, you would see it. So it suggests

4 that you need to do a more thorough analysis?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: You need a more thorough --

6 exactly.

7 MALE SPEAKER: The trouble, you'd have to

8 design everybody's product line and evaluate it.

9 You're going to have to come up with some

10 definitive rule that you're going to have to guess

11 at.

12 MR. deLASKI: Right. A weighting of some

13 sort or an average --

14 MALE SPEAKER: Some weighting.

15 MR. deLASKI: -- but it's not zero, it's

16 not a hundred.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Some units may jump at

18 EL-2 or might jump at EL-3.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure. You're right. You're

20 right.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Depends on if it's the

22 smallest unit in the box or the biggest in the box.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Do you all have any great

2 suggestions on how Navigant might do that?

3 MALE SPEAKER: We've been doing it

4 already.

5 (Simultaneous talking)

6 MALE SPEAKER: We're investigating the

7 sizes based on curve area and obviously dimensions,

8 too, but (speaking under breath).

9 Certainly we can look at the dimensions,

10 but then how to implement it in the out-stream

11 analysis in order to figure out what the impact is

12 and how much energy savings you really get, that's

13 where it gets complicated.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think we have to

15 look at it by comparison size and then say, okay,

16 for this capacity size it looks like it's at this

17 EL level and for this other one, it's at a

18 different EL level, you know, just looking at this

19 kind of a plot.

20 Otherwise, I don't know how we can -- I

21 mean, we could pick something out of the air, but

22 if we want to do something more scientific, I think
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1 we'd have to look at this, kind of a (inaudible)

2 like you suggested or some key sizes; right.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: My initial impression

4 looking at some of these plots was that it's not a

5 cut-and-dry story that it's always an EL-3.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Because if you

7 look at this, I mean, the green one doesn't jump at

8 all, but it's a very large footprint to start with;

9 right.

10 MR. deLASKI: Interesting.

11 MR. WHITWELL: But the blue one, for

12 example, it's a significant jump when you go from

13 14 to 19. So it all depends on the starting point,

14 like you said where it is within a certain chasse,

15 where that capacity unit falls within a

16 manufacturer's chasse.

17 MALE SPEAKER: I think we're already

18 headed towards like performance correlations with

19 the conversion curve, even at the lower efficiency

20 levels. (Speaking under breath).

21 We could alternatively (inaudible).

22 (Off-the-record discussion)
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think the other thing

2 about these charts (inaudible), there's no strong

3 story about saving size (speaking under breath).

4 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, could you speak a

5 little louder, I couldn't hear your observation.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: For this one here, the

7 15 tons, there are -- Manufacturer A as to market

8 channeling units and 77 square foot (inaudible)

9 area, but there are two round-tube units on a

10 smaller curve are. Well, moving on --

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

12 I certainly think that you can -- curve

13 area is appropriate, but I would expect the package

14 size to scale the surface area.

15 What I don't have a sense of in

16 particular terms of box content, wanting to get

17 multiple chasses and efficiencies for the same size

18 package.

19 If I go up one percent in package size,

20 package cost go up half a percent or two percent --

21 no, no, I mean, to what extent does it pay you just

22 to use a larger box for more size is really what it
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1 comes down to.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey, a big driver on

3 this is to (inaudible). You give general purpose

4 to a product and it's a lot more expensive.

5 MR. THARP: But if you hard tool a

6 product, you have to volume to hard too it and you

7 want to have common box sizes.

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, manufacturing

9 complexity and capital expense.

10 MALE SPEAKER: It could be a

11 generalization for a large production volume type.

12 MALE SPEAKER: You get up to like about

13 30 tons. Those are more general purpose, you know,

14 the seven-and-half, 10 ton.

15 MALE SPEAKER: No, I can't give you a

16 percentage increase in the cost for size.

17 MALE SPEAKER: It's kind of what I think

18 Jim was indicating, (inaudible).

19 MR. WHITWELL: In some cases dollars per

20 ton can go up as you go up in capacity, because on

21 the lower end you got more volume, you got

22 economies to scale.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: So moving on to

2 comparison of SAV and VAV, and the reason we looked

3 at this was that -- and we kind of took the

4 approach for the seven and a half and 15 ton,

5 modeling them through most of the efficiency range,

6 either as constant air volume or staged air volume.

7 But we are aware that some of these units

8 might be inclined in the field as VAV, which is a

9 third option. So the question is do we have the

10 complexity of providing VAV models having LV&L

11 (inaudible) for that portion of the floorspace that

12 is VAV in this capacity range.

13 Well, let's look at -- what's the

14 difference in the IEER between an SAV and a VAV and

15 we did this for the EL3, which had three stages so

16 that it's worth talking about, because it has three

17 stages and you go down roughly 40 percent

18 (inaudible).

19 So when we did this, we found that there

20 was very little difference in the IEER for

21 (inaudible) and then next page compares them.

22 MR. STARR: This is Louis from NEEA.
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1 I would agree with that. The problem is

2 the test procedure doesn't really capture the real

3 world energy with use of a fan where you would see

4 a lot in a VAV system that turned down to 30

5 percent rather than 40 percent.

6 That's why (inaudible) look at IEER

7 wouldn't necessarily be a good way to ago about

8 looking at that.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is a unit with

10 three compressor stages, so it's not really going

11 to go down 30 percent because it's (inaudible) 4.44

12 percent on the compressor side.

13 MR. STARR: Well, ventilation.

14 MALE SPEAKER: You got to keep in mind,

15 VAV is a different animal. That would have very

16 little airflow, so you'd have to have a lot of

17 stages or you're going to end up with supplier

18 (inaudible), so you design differently when you're

19 building VAV and you can (speaking under breath).

20 MR. STARR: So typically you would size

21 all your boxes, you drop it down to 30 percent of

22 your total airflow, so the unit's probably running
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1 from somewhere in 30 percent 100 percent airflow. 

2 When it's no load, or very low load, it's going to

3 run close to 30 percent --

4 MALE SPEAKER: Actually I was asking for

5 much lower than 30 percent, because you guys

6 (inaudible).

7 MR. STARR: Oh, that's right.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Let me ask the question

9 here: What you're saying is that you've got

10 compressor modulation from all of these units that

11 are -- that have VAV?

12 MALE SPEAKER: If you look at what's in

13 90.11, they have four stages, five stages, six

14 stages. Some will have the last stage modulating,

15 not always. Some of them will have (inaudible) for

16 some of them. But if you look at 90.1 that's why

17 on VAV, we ask for more stages than we do on

18 (inaudible) because of the stability issues.

19 Once you get to about six stages, more

20 stages...

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Let's go back to these

22 30-ton units here. If you look at four there
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1 (speaking under breath).

2 MALE SPEAKER: That's a (inaudible) unit.

3 If you look at EL2.5, that's a VAV. It's got four

4 stages. Look at EL2, that's got five stages. Those

5 are the units you would use on VAV.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So when we're dealing

7 with a VAV --

8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) static

9 pressure, supplier temperature --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Supplier temperature.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Should we come up with a

12 guess for how many stages there are if the product

13 literature doesn't?

14 MALE SPEAKER: Well, right now you're not

15 even modeling a VAV. Everything you've done is

16 staged (inaudible).

17 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they're modeling it

18 the IEER test points.

19 MALE SPEAKER: When you do VAV, you got

20 reheat, you've got all sorts of things in the

21 building, that's why I would probably -- you're

22 taking some of these buildings over, obviously VAV,
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1 and making it into constant liability, which is not

2 right.

3 I mean, the VAV system is a totally

4 different design from the unit, to the terminals,

5 to the heating methods. You've got to have the

6 right building.

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: (Inaudible). I think

8 this is like a point that gets bigger than

9 engineering, (inaudible) the building model as

10 well. Now on June 15th, we're going to perhaps

11 have (speaking under breath). Think about how will

12 you do this and our approach was to model at a

13 stage based on IEER status.

14 MALE SPEAKER: I think I might have

15 something to help here. So the percentage of

16 market we're talking about here is probably 10

17 percent or less, is that -- 30 ton?

18 MALE SPEAKER: Once you get above 30 tons

19 it's like (inaudible). It starts off at constant

20 volume. By the time you're at 60 tons, it's almost

21 all VAV.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably even the break --
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1 probably even the break changeover really happens

2 at around 40 tons, so these are, remember your

3 categories, 20 through essentially 63 tons and your

4 change order happens around 40 tons to majority be

5 VAV units.

6 So picking 30 as representative of that,

7 it's a little hard. If you looked at just pure

8 30-ton sales, yes, it's probably a little bit more

9 constant volume than -- we're probably at a 40, I'm

10 just going off the top of my head.

11 MALE SPEAKER: This market segment,

12 though, it's of the total sales. It's not that

13 large, right, it's like less than 10 percent. So

14 I'm not saying the analysis is not important, maybe

15 not as important as the rest of the stuff.

16 MALE SPEAKER: It's 10 percent of the

17 market, but it's three times the capacity of a

18 10-ton unit. The energy's larger.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

20 MALE SPEAKER: We may be complicating our

21 lives too much. We're trying to split -- because

22 (inaudible) to really model VAV at 30 tons is not
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1 the best choice, should have been (inaudible) and a

2 40 ton. It's just how much analysis do we really

3 want to do on this thing?

4 MR. STARR: Well, the other point I was

5 thinking is so (inaudible) is the 20 tons, right,

6 there's going to be a lot of staged air volume

7 point. So again actually the VAV systems in that

8 size I've always seen are kind of what he's

9 describing, but then I realize what the sales

10 actually are for things like Walmart and some of

11 the other large retail stores that have these large

12 units that are basically just two stage, kind of

13 like what you -- kind of what's described up there.

14 So to me I think you are capturing most

15 of the market. It sounds like you're missing a

16 certain percentage of it. Maybe we should talk

17 about (coughing), that might be more to the point.

18 MALE SPEAKER: The only part we argue is

19 that the base case may be a 30-ton (inaudible)

20 certain percentage of (inaudible) VAV. So you're

21 not going to get fancy --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, VAV or staged
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1 (inaudible), but that's the case across.

2 MALE SPEAKER: We're going to have so

3 many variations times the sensitivity, I'm not sure

4 you're going to get this all done. It may be one

5 of those ones we have to just not push.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Basically you're modeling

7 the VAV and the staged air volume really the same;

8 right?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, not exactly. We

10 would be modeling the VAV system test procedure. So

11 given the stages that we have, we model it down the

12 same --

13 MALE SPEAKER: Okay.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- temperature as in...

15 MR. STARR: The other thing is is that

16 AHRI is getting the data, we'll have a sense of how

17 much our -- the distinctions between the two-stage

18 VAV or the continuous VAV systems.

19 MALE SPEAKER: No. We'll have the staged

20 air volume and VAV as -- together versus a

21 constant...

22 MALE SPEAKER: One problem you got is
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1 there are only three buckets, 65 to 135, 135 to

2 240, 240 and up. Like you said, there's a lot of

3 20, 25-ton constant volumes in that 30 and up -- or

4 20-and-up category. You may not get the true

5 picture.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's heavily weighted.

7 MALE SPEAKER: It's heavily weighted.

8 There's a lot of volume at 20, 25 tons, because of

9 Walmart.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And Home Depot and Lowe's.

11 MR. STARR: So that's what I was saying

12 that maybe 80, 90 percent of the sales are really

13 20-ton units, but I don't know. Maybe it's worth

14 the manufacturer's to get a snapshot. I don't know

15 if they could do that easily or not. But if we're

16 only talking about 10 percent of small category, it

17 doesn't seem like it's worth doing an analysis on

18 it.

19 MALE SPEAKER: I'm afraid we bogged

20 ourselves down with an analysis.

21 MR. WHITWELL: We'll see the data pretty

22 soon, right, at least what that total category
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1 looks like and if we need to get into more

2 requirement, we could --

3 MALE SPEAKER: It's kind of a parking

4 lot...

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So then that's the

6 question of whether the four-stage modeling is

7 appropriate for VAV...

8 MALE SPEAKER: The IEER was kind of

9 (inaudible), four blowing points, and I was trying

10 to keep it somewhat simple, not have six or ten

11 different testimonies. You're not going to see

12 much difference between a four stage and a three

13 stage, which is what you're seeing. If you want to

14 model a true VAV in a building, that's a different

15 story because the air is like -- the airflow turns

16 down more, the capacity turns down more, but it has

17 re-heat and other things in there that have to show

18 (inaudible).

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: We will have the air

20 turned down more (inaudible).

21 MALE SPEAKER: You're not modeling -- the

22 trouble is building some of our VAV, you really
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1 can't tell, we don't have enough detail.

2 MR. WHITWELL: But if we're modeling the

3 VAV the same way across the EL levels, does it

4 really make a difference?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: May I? I'm just

6 facilitator (inaudible). Are we kind of going in

7 circles a little bit here?

8 MALE SPEAKER: I guess the only

9 difference I would make is you're assuming that

10 base case was purely a (inaudible). A lot of those

11 units might have already been VAV.

12 MR. WHITWELL: That's what I'm saying, if

13 we do it the same way across all EL levels, we've

14 got to recognize that some EL -- zero units, EL1,

15 they're VAV already. But if we model it the same

16 way, then I think we're still okay; right?

17 MALE SPEAKER: Well, yeah, you notice

18 here that for 30 tons we have the VAV option at

19 EL1, consistent with (inaudible).

20 MR. WHITWELL: It really should be there

21 at the baseline as well in the 30 ton.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I would challenge
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1 somebody to show me a VAV unit that's as low as

2 10.6 and...

3 MALE SPEAKER: It's tough to get there.

4 It's because you read them as constant volume.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: I'm thinking baseline is

6 current.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Is it time to move on then,

8 in terms of the discussion?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think I'm getting

10 agreement that the floor level modeling of VAV is

11 acceptable?

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Do we need to vote on that?

14 No. Good. Moving right along.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: The other comments made

16 about some of these units here, if I see an IEER

17 level for a two-stage unit that should be VAV,

18 two-stage compressor, what is that IEER based on

19 and how do I know that I'm getting the right number

20 for my correlation (inaudible) to try to model this

21 VAV. For instance, this EL4 unit (coughing) and the

22 assumption is that it will (coughing) a VAV unit.
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1 It's got a 14.9 IEER. Is that as tested in two

2 stages according to the test procedure with the VAV

3 assumptions?

4 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, is that

5 something -- I mean, you're going to be going to

6 the manufacturer to get the watt profile confirmed,

7 so that's something you could ask at that point, I

8 think; right?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: It would save a lot of

10 trouble if somebody could -- maybe what we ought to

11 do is go the manufacturer before we do the work and

12 get some guidance.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, to ask is that a two

14 stage or does it have more stages I guess is your

15 question; right?

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: How does the 14.9 apply,

17 does it apply if you're operating at two stage?

18 MALE SPEAKER: I'll be honest with you, I

19 don't know you could test to (inaudible) air

20 temperature with two stages on the (inaudible). I

21 don't think you could test that incorrectly.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: You can certainly with
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1 that being a single compressor operating adjust

2 your airflow to get the same discharge temperature.

3 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but you're going to

4 end up with a lot of degradation factors. A

5 two-stage VAV unit is something a customer is not

6 going to buy. (Speaking under breath).

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's my question.

8 MALE SPEAKER: That's why I'm not sure

9 why you're trying to model a two-stage unit as VAV.

10 It's not something somebody would buy.

11 MALE SPEAKER: What I want to know is how

12 do I get an EL4?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: With a VAV.

14 MALE SPEAKER: And know what -- and have

15 the information.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Unless the manufacturers

17 provide...

18 MALE SPEAKER: So you want to model VAV

19 and CV in every single case?

20 MALE SPEAKER: That's I think the

21 recommendation.

22 MALE SPEAKER: You're going to need at
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1 least three stages.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is three stages

3 sufficient?

4 MALE SPEAKER: No, I think actually it

5 says four, 30 tons.

6 (Simultaneous talking).

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: The product literature

8 does not tell us except in a limited circumstance

9 which --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Did everyone hear her

12 comment?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: I just had the question. I

14 just wanted to make sure I was clear. The

15 compressor model numbers, those are the ones that

16 heat -- that they're modeling. They're not the

17 ones that are actually in the physical unit.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm hearing --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us make our own

20 compressors.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm hearing four from a

22 couple people.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Once it gets over 25 tons,

2 it goes to four.

3 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, that's why I

4 was picking on that one line earlier. It didn't

5 make sense to me that that's the reason. Maybe you

6 ought to double check that EL4.

7 MALE SPEAKER: It didn't make sense to us

8 either.

9 MR. ZENDAH: It doesn't have to be VAV to

10 -- it doesn't have to be. That's a constant

11 volume, the way I look at it. The way it is, it

12 cannot get to VAV. It won't meet the VAV

13 requirements.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: My understanding is

15 that, what I've heard today, (inaudible) of these

16 units would be installed VAV at this efficiency

17 level. We'll -- it sounds like a guidances as to

18 working with VAV manufacturers to try to get some

19 (inaudible).

20 So I think we've covered this topic. We

21 kind of already jumped into (inaudible) VAV. I

22 think we probably covered of this. I've listed
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1 potential complications at the bottom here and

2 these are things that (coughing) pre-ARSAC meetings

3 regarding compressor capacity, variation of ambient

4 temperatures, so discharge temperature would vary,

5 the discharge temperature reset, which could apply

6 (inaudible). Do we really want to address that?

7 MALE SPEAKER: There's a lot of things

8 you kind of can't address. You can't address

9 supplier reset, static pressure reset, energy

10 recovery, demand ventilation. Those are all things

11 that save energy, but you just can't address them,

12 unless you're re-run (inaudible).

13 Those are ones that, whether it's EL1 or

14 EL4, like demand ventilation, I don't think it's

15 going to make a big difference.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Probably not.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Relative-wise. I mean,

18 your (inaudible) energy may be more than actually

19 saved in the real world.

20 MALE SPEAKER: So you if you save 20

21 percent, then it would be --

22 MALE SPEAKER: For both of them.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: -- but it probably doesn't

2 say that.

3 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible), it's just

4 tough to model, unless -- I mean, I think the

5 message I get from this whole thing is -- and when

6 we do this again, we really ought to have models

7 that we can run. Don't use this historical model

8 that we can't run.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: It certainly will be --

10 MALE SPEAKER: We'll all be gone by then,

11 I know.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Then this other slide

14 was about VAV units with single-speed compressors

15 and that's what we get here (speaking under breath)

16 at least three or four.

17 I think at that point we move on to cost,

18 so transition to James.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'm going to suggest

20 that we push it through, the cost portion of this

21 and call it a day. I'm seeing some heavy --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Quick question: Do we want
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1 to hear just from (inaudible) counsel's office

2 (inaudible) status?

3 MALE SPEAKER: The 60 seconds that --

4 MS. HOFFMAN: You may recall on April

5 28th, there were quite a few questions for the

6 legal staff, general counsel (inaudible, and you

7 promised to get back to us, so --

8 MALE SPEAKER: Here I am.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: And here he is.

10 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible) answered over

11 lunch, weren't they?

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me?

13 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible), all of those

14 over lunch, weren't they?

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but we didn't say

16 which lunch.

17 MR. STAS: This is Eric Stas from DOE. I

18 just wanted to take the opportunity to report back

19 to the working group on the five legal questions

20 that Andrew raised. They're very important

21 questions. Obviously they touch upon a number of

22 topics related to longstanding view
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1 interpretations, so we've had at least a couple of

2 meetings to discuss this.

3 Like I said, they're quite (inaudible)

4 questions with a lot of implications, so we're not

5 quite there to give answers just yet, but we're

6 certainly thinking about them, working on them.

7 Between today and tomorrow is not very much time,

8 so we can expect answers tomorrow.

9 Fingers crossed (inaudible) the next

10 meeting, and I will keep urging people along to get

11 answers to you. I'll just say move forward and try

12 to make progress in all other areas. (Inaudible)

13 going on, just think about things maybe in the

14 alternative, but we'll try to (inaudible) as soon

15 as possible.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Eric, and I

17 suggest that the facilitators are requesting that

18 we have an answer for the May 20th meeting. I'm

19 not sure what clout that is, but I thought maybe it

20 would help, so, okay...

21 MR. BATTAGLIA: (Inaudible), this is

22 James Battaglia.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: A little louder, please.

2 MR. BATTAGLIA: Just to start getting

3 into cost. As a reminder, and I know we mentioned

4 this at previous meetings, but the NOPR analysis

5 was based upon costing out the energy models units

6 from the energy use -- or the energy analysis from

7 NOPR.

8 For this new analysis, we have de-coupled

9 the energy modeling and the cost modeling, so now

10 we're -- in order to capture a more representative

11 cost without using the manufacturing cost model as

12 based on the physical and catalog tear-downs to

13 come up with incremental costs that are more

14 representative of the market.

15 So as we've mentioned, we have two

16 separate airflow pass, design pass, for the CAV and

17 -- for SAV for seven and a half and 15 tons at EL1

18 and EL2.

19 For seven and a half and 15 tons, we've

20 -- what we've done is we've used the cost model in

21 the catalog tear-downs and physical tear-downs to

22 estimate the incremental manufacturing cost for
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1 each manufacturer individually and then we averaged

2 the results.

3 So in doing that, in some cases, we --

4 for each manufacturer, we obviously don't have

5 IEERs spanning the full range of efficiency levels

6 that we're analyzing. So the primary method that

7 we're using to estimate costs at those levels where

8 we don't have actual models is that we're linearly

9 interpellating or extrapolating the results within

10 reason.

11 For example if we had a unit that -- or

12 two units that were at 12 and a half and 13 IEER

13 and the efficiency level was at 13.2, we'd use

14 those two models to extrapolate the cost to get to

15 that level.

16 Now, for efficiency levels that we have

17 very few models, maybe one or two, at those higher

18 -- for example, for the higher efficiency levels,

19 what we've done is try to ensure that the costs are

20 representative of an industry average.

21 So, for example, and I think we mentioned

22 this in preliminary discussions, but for EL4 for
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1 seven and a half and 15 tons what we did was we

2 applied the relative percentage increase in cost

3 for the one manufacturer available across the other

4 manufacturers to be able to better represent all

5 the production factors that they were -- other

6 manufacturing...

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

8 I'm not sure I want the answer that you

9 (inaudible) refer to average. My sense that the

10 different OEMs in the room have different market

11 shares and that they even vary by size of the

12 equipment. So are these weighted by model number,

13 by estimated shipment sales, or are these just

14 straightforward averages with Manufacturer A,

15 Manufacturer Z?

16 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. They're

17 just straight averages. I mean, we'd obviously

18 welcome a market share by manufacturer that we

19 could use to weight the values but in the absence

20 of (inaudible) averaged.

21 MR. SACHS: So they're not even model

22 number weighted?
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1 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct.

2 MR. SACHS: So especially manufacturers

3 equal to a major player in the RTU market?

4 MR. BATTAGLIA: Again, this was based on

5 only manufacturers that had enough information in

6 the product literature. So I guess I can't say

7 whether -- if we were to take an average of just

8 those with the (inaudible) representative, we'd

9 have to have the market share data. Or if the

10 agreement to use a model we have to --

11 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey.

12 I appreciate that. It just is another

13 source of uncertainty I think, (inaudible).

14 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for 30 ton, we have --

15 we have some costs that (coughing) this level, but

16 at this point we are seeking feedback and

17 information on the approach to the cost efficiency

18 curb.

19 The reasons for that is there are very

20 few models at 30 tons to which -- for which to

21 create a full cost deficiency prepared for each

22 manufacturer.
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1 We also are running into issues where you

2 have different box sizes. So you have the smaller

3 cabinet units that may more closely represent

4 lower-capacity units and then you have the larger

5 ones that may more closely represent the

6 higher-capacity unit, similar to what you'd see for

7 industrial applications.

8 We'll get into the 30-ton costs a bit

9 later. We have a slide for that.

10 In the past meetings, we've had some

11 questions about the controls so we -- we've taken a

12 look at that and we've refined our analysis. This

13 just provides an overview of our assumptions for

14 each level of control that's needed for each type

15 of product, type of equipment.

16 So what we've done is we've varied the

17 controls by unit size and complexity. So for below

18 30 tons, what we modeled is -- for the base, what

19 you'd see are controls similar to what are found in

20 residential RTUs that are capable of operating

21 single compressor and may interface with contactors

22 that do the actual (inaudible) switching. So you'd
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1 have your basic (inaudible) is to control the

2 contactors and that would interface with the single

3 24 on/off thermostat for -- up to two compressor

4 stages.

5 Once you get into adding VFDs for the SAV

6 models, that triggered an additional control cost

7 for more complex control systems that use

8 additional sensor feedback to control the speed of

9 the fans.

10 So these are, as I said, more

11 sophisticated controls running on 20 Volt control

12 boards that can control up to three stages or more

13 compressors and they may also do (inaudible) fan

14 staging.

15 Then for variable speed compressors --

16 any units with variable speed compressors, add

17 again three additional control costs. For more

18 sophisticated controls to monitor additional sensor

19 feedback for (inaudible) temperature, moisture, et

20 cetera, that also (coughing) with the VFD. That is

21 capable of providing feedback and controlling the

22 VFD system for the compressor.
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1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

2 So are we assuming that the economize and

3 controls are similar or in general the same for all

4 these three levels or where does it economize at

5 some other stage, or you looked at several more

6 stages?

7 MR. BATTAGLIA: We did not model

8 economize and controls since it's not part of the

9 IEER-rated unit. I assume that may not change

10 efficiency level.

11 MALE SPEAKER: It does get impact a

12 little bit when you go to changing fan speeds. You

13 have to impact economize and control speeds.

14 MR. HUNT: Should there be a cost to

15 upgrade here or are these buckets big enough to

16 hold the cost of --

17 MALE SPEAKER: It depends. It depends on

18 how creative people can get them, what they do.

19 MR. HUNT: Yeah. Well, there's an RTU,

20 or something, very complex.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So if I understand it, the

22 assumption is that for a constant-volume unit
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1 (inaudible) 30 tons, you're just assuming a simple

2 control staged air volume, you add the VFD, plus

3 more sophisticated control costs for it and then

4 for a variable speed, it's more sophisticated

5 controls.

6 So you're ignoring whatever's in the unit

7 and you're just adding costs for -- you're assuming

8 the costs to based on these assumptions?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Make it universal across.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. The residential

11 rooftop units, I assume you're talking about

12 single-face commercial rooftop units; right?

13 MR. BATTAGLIA: Do you know if they're --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Never mind.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, this whole study is

16 created in five tons, so it's all commercial...

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef.

18 I mean, those models are available single

19 base or three base.

20 MALE SPEAKER: My comment was just that

21 they're not residential really.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: It's not relevant. It's

2 another subject.

3 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for above 30 tons

4 would -- we revised our analysis and (inaudible)

5 from the base controls and based on what we've --

6 what our research suggests and based on our review

7 of models.

8 So for those systems what we've added is

9 more heavy duty power (inaudible) to -- what we saw

10 was those units were adding in three-ball circuit

11 breakers. For the major subassemblies, we have

12 compressors and fans, foreign and VA transformers,

13 and also compressor current (inaudible) for --

14 whether that's for safety or any other reasons.

15 Regardless of capacity, we're also

16 modeling for any -- all VAV units that they have

17 that third-level sophisticated controller and that

18 would -- and on top of that, they would have a DDC

19 interface to interface with the built-in control

20 system.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Is that the same for the

22 staged air volume, it's in the same control?
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1 MR. BATTAGLIA: We did not assume that

2 staged air would require the DDC, just for the

3 variable VAV.

4 MR. WHITWELL: But you must have made

5 some assumption for our difference between the

6 staged air volume and the constant volume, but

7 there's --

8 MR. BATTAGLIA: In terms of the other

9 levels (inaudible)?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, well, above -- below

11 30 tons, you assume a different control for a

12 constant volume versus staged air volume.

13 MR. BATTAGLIA: In the energy modeling

14 since we only considered CAV versus VAV, we just

15 considered those also. The CAV level would have

16 that -- the more basic controller scaled up to that

17 30-ton level, but...

18 MR. WHITWELL: So if it's not constant

19 volume, then it's got the VAV control?

20 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct.

21 MR. STARR: So this is supposed to be, I

22 think, maybe Dick can advise on it, but isn't above
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1 a certain tonnage you have to have a DDC system...

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Nope.

3 MALE SPEAKER: (Speaking under breath).

4 If you don't have one --

5 MR. STARR: The staged air volume not

6 necessarily. I thought when you got to certain

7 size equipment that you would start (inaudible) DDC

8 systems where available.

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: So this is our latest

10 cost efficiency curb. So the black line is the

11 Path 1 CAV at levels below EL3 and Path 2 is for --

12 is using SAV for all efficiency levels above the

13 baseline.

14 Based on our -- sorry, the red dot there

15 is also -- since we're considering both the single

16 circuit and dual circuit, we did provide two

17 baseline costs for that level.

18 For EL3 we also observed that this level

19 was achieved by VAV, so we provided a (inaudible)

20 point there, the blue dot, that includes in the

21 average across manufacturers, the cost for a unit

22 using VAV.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Probably dumb question,

2 but Path 1 versus Path 2, what is the difference?

3 MR. BATTAGLIA: So Path 1 is the CAV

4 below EL3 and Path 2 is above baseline is all SAV.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So what's the difference

6 then between the path to and the EL3 SAV and DAV at

7 the same IEER level?

8 MR. BATTAGLIA: So the grey line is just

9 considering SAV unites. Then the blue dot is

10 averaging SAV and VAV.

11 Does that make sense?

12 MR. WHITWELL: No.

13 MR. BATTAGLIA: So this point here is

14 only SAV. This point is averaging manufactuers

15 that -- is averaging, so models that are SAV and

16 models that are VAV. So not the same model as SAV

17 or VAV, but if one manufacturer applies VAV to get

18 to that level, we added to the average.

19 What we're asking for feedback here on is

20 which approach -- or whether -- yeah, which

21 approach we should be taking, whether we should

22 only be considering SAV because it's lower cost
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1 option to get to that number or should we be

2 factoring in the cost for SAV and VAV...

3 MR. deLASKI: (Inaudible), this is

4 Andrew.

5 I thought I heard earlier that VAV it

6 might -- maybe it could happen, we were talking

7 offline here, but it's a pretty rare beast.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want this off the

9 record?

10 MR. deLASKI: No.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Because you said "offline".

12 MR. deLASKI: We were chatting over here.

13 (Inaudible) earlier is VAV actually

14 happening at seven-and-a-half tons and the answer

15 was -- we heard earlier today that it was a pretty

16 --

17 MALE SPEAKER: It's primarily the control

18 cost difference I assume is what we're looking at

19 there.

20 MR. BATTAGLIA: So their recommendation

21 is to just consider SAV?

22 MALE SPEAKER: For that tonnage.
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1 MR. BATTAGLIA: For that tonnage.

2 MALE SPEAKER: I agree, that's what we

3 said earlier.

4 MR. BATTAGLIA: So these are the same

5 costs presented at the table. We've also added in

6 the prior estimates for shipping costs and the

7 shipping weight --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, not off the top of my

9 head. I'll have to go look at --

10 MR. BATTAGLIA: Maybe if you -- tomorrow

11 or the next meeting (inaudible), if you want to do

12 that, too.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: May I ask other folks that

14 might help with shipping costs besides Jill and

15 shipping weight?

16 MR. SACHS: I can't help with that. This

17 is Harvey, but before we get to that, can you just

18 remind me on table -- on Slide 45 that enormous

19 (inaudible) are just under 16 to just under 20 a

20 very modest cost, what was -- did technology

21 change?

22 MR. BATTAGLIA: So that is going to
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1 assume a circuit (inaudible) --

2 MR. SACHS: Single circuit.

3 MR. BATTAGLIA: -- tandem compressors. We

4 did not show significant -- again, that's the cost

5 increase that we modeled in our cost...

6 I think there may be other -- few other

7 design changes, but I think that's the main change.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman.

9 Just a quick question to Jill on shipping

10 costs and shipping --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Any of it, I think. Any of

12 it, you have to look at -- any of it, you have to

13 look back at, it's not just shipping.

14 But I do have a question on shipping: So

15 how can something that weighs about 60 pounds more

16 be the same shipping cost?

17 MR. BATTAGLIA: For shipping costs what

18 we did was we -- based on the units that we

19 analyzed, we looked at the cabinet size and

20 determined whether that's going to cause a break in

21 the number of shipping units so you can fit into a

22 trailer?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Almost none of these go on

2 -- into a trailer. Almost all of those go on a

3 flatbed.

4 MR. BATTAGLIA: Great. Also just to

5 clarify, the shipping cost what we've used -- come

6 up with is from the from the middle of the U.S. to

7 a coast.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're not doing it on

9 pounds and weight?

10 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: You're doing it just be

12 size --

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Guys, wrap it up.

14 (Simultaneous talking.)

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Jill, if you're flying by

16 helicopter --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: True.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Moving right along.

19 MR. BATTAGLIA: This is the cost

20 efficiency curve for -- we get the same Path 1 --

21 Path 1 is CAV up through EL2 and then Path 2 is SAV

22 above...
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: VAV is where?

2 MR. BATTAGLIA: For 15 ton, we did not

3 include any VAV (inaudible).

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Dick, no VAV at 15 tons?

5 MALE SPEAKER: Well, people still do

6 them, sure.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: When we get into those

8 higher efficiency, we are going to be more and more

9 (inaudible)?

10 MR. BATTAGLIA: I think the mass tech

11 (sounds like) is VAV, sorry.

12 MALE SPEAKER: It comes down to people

13 (speaking under breath).

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, exactly.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Versus a true VAV. It's

16 just --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just thinking an EL3

18 that it might be a bigger percentage.

19 MALE SPEAKER: VAV (inaudible) everybody,

20 got different zone and temperature requirements.

21 MALE SPEAKER: One thing would be helpful

22 if we do consider that is what percentage of
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1 shipment, so (speaking under breath).

2 MR. deLASKI: James, I guess I'm --

3 that's a valid question but I also think that the

4 way you pose it back when you pose it for

5 seven-and-a-half tons is if your task is to model

6 the least cost path, that the cost for the

7 compliant product -- I'm a manufacturer of a

8 (inaudible) compliant product, I don't have to ship

9 the VAV unit; right? I'm shipping the VAV because

10 that's meeting customer demand -- a customer

11 requirement.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be the cheapest --

13 cheapest way to get there.

14 MR. deLASKI: Well, then it should be

15 modeled. But the fact that it's seven-and-a-half

16 ton, it's not the cheapest way. It was more

17 expensive, so would you weight that in would be my

18 question. You don't have to answer that, but I'm

19 just -- my hypothesis would be that you wouldn't

20 weight that in because it's not -- it's not below

21 cost (inaudible) comply.

22 MALE SPEAKER: Actually what the guy in
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240

1 the real world is going to do if he's -- he's got a

2 zoning requirement, he'll probably put two units on

3 instead of putting one VAV.

4 MALE SPEAKER: If he's looking for

5 zoning, he's got two zones. One different

6 (inaudible) departments. He's got to be able to

7 put VAV unit on it and (inaudible). Where if you

8 put two units on, one for each zone, and he'll do

9 it either way.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

11 The translation of that is he can put on

12 1 VAV unit and ensure that both zones will be

13 dissatisfied or put two different units on and hope

14 that one zone will be happy.

15 MALE SPEAKER: You can -- do like

16 (inaudible) did, put 20 on it, some are heating and

17 some are cooling. On the average, you're okay.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: So true.

19 MR. BATTAGLIA: So for 30 tons, this is

20 the path we put together based on equipment that's

21 at the nominal 30 tons. So again, Path 1 is CAV

22 through EL2.5. The EL3 through mass tech is VAV
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1 and then from Path 2 is VAV for all efficiencies

2 above baseline.

3 So the issue here is the different --

4 what we're seeing with different cabinet sizes --

5 what we saw is you have some equipment platforms

6 that 20 to 60 tons and then another (inaudible) 30

7 to 100 tons, so you have that significant

8 difference in costs just based on the platform.

9 So what we're trying to seek feedback on

10 is how to do we come up with a representative cost

11 efficiency curve at 30 tons with the two different

12 paths, considering the difference in the cabinet

13 platforms?

14 Again, one thing we could do is we could

15 weight the cost for small versus large cabinets by

16 shipments --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) pulling

18 shipment out of that (inaudible), pulling it for

19 you in the 240 to (inaudible) so it's all together. 

20 So those different platforms and one that is more

21 alike commercial and one is heavy industrial,

22 they're all being lumped together.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Isn't the number you're

2 really trying to get to is the delta cost, not the

3 absolute cost?

4 MR. BATTAGLIA: That's correct. That's

5 -- we can certainly come up with an average based

6 on that cost, but I think the delta is (inaudible).

7 MALE SPEAKER: Jill had it right. There's

8 a light commercial, 20 to 60 tons, heavy

9 commercial. But the delta if you get to efficiency

10 may not be that much difference. She knows a

11 little bit more on one or the other.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, your weights and

13 shipping costs are definitely --

14 MALE SPEAKER: Well, it's like --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Those I think are on the

16 fringe of --

17 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but most of our

18 units don't load a truck to 30,000 pounds, it's

19 volume and how many can fit on the truck. Sixty

20 it's usually one, maybe two.

21 MR. BATTAGLIA: Is the suggestion to if

22 we look at one or -- whichever one -- if either of
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1 them have enough (inaudible) a full curve, you get

2 an accurate estimate of the full incremental cost?

3 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. You wouldn't want

4 to jump from a light to a heavy and try and compare

5 costs.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

7 MALE SPEAKER: You one stay in one chasse

8 style.

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Also one of the issue --

10 I guess maybe at the baseline where we don't have

11 as many units is linearly extrapolated and --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: At the baseline linearly?

13 MR. BATTAGLIA: Using these units at 11.1

14 or 11.3, using this to extrapolate down to

15 (inaudible).

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably, yeah.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Test procedure doesn't

18 allow extrapolation. Just kidding.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. He's got to do it

20 now before --

21 MALE SPEAKER: Call it a day?

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Thank you. We're
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1 going to call it a day. We're starting very early

2 tomorrow, 8:00 a.m.

3 (Thereupon, the meeting was adjourned at

4 4:23 P.M.)

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245 

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

2 

3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 

4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 

5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 

6 accurate record. 

7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 

10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 

11 financially interested in the action. 

12 Dated this 26th day of May, 2015. 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

202-220-4158 

Kylie S. Shepherd 

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 

www.hendersonlegalservices.com 
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A

a.m 1:9 244:2

able 51:4 57:8

72:4 107:18

109:12 114:5

114:20

128:20

131:14

139:14 144:3

156:14 166:5

224:4 240:6

above 20:20

27:9,10 55:1

59:8 102:7

168:5,5

175:14

186:14

206:18 230:3

231:10,22

232:12 233:4

237:22 241:2

absence

224:19

absolute 242:3

abstaining

130:11

AC 44:15,20

45:1 85:20

96:12

accept 131:14

acceptable

213:11

according

28:22 71:6

74:3 189:8

214:2

account 83:9

accurate 243:2

245:6

ACEEE5:2

achieved

232:19

acknowledg...

6:21

across 11:16

74:11 110:19

136:15,16

149:17 153:2

163:14

193:15 209:1

212:3,13

224:3 229:9

232:21

action 34:6

132:3 135:7

245:10,11

actual 44:9

66:4 101:4

150:7 155:22

163:22 223:8

226:22

actually 46:9

58:20 60:6

61:6 81:5

83:20 86:18

86:19 90:14

95:9 97:18

99:16 101:1

101:1 105:6

108:10

111:14 112:6

114:15 116:5

127:16 138:3

139:12 142:8

149:22 151:3

160:17

163:20

174:22

178:17

183:20 204:4

208:7,10

216:4,17

218:18

234:13

239:22

Adam 2:7 5:16

10:14 11:3

65:15 72:12

add 11:12 41:5

55:15 59:16

60:2 62:18

66:11 67:10

67:16 88:16

119:21

120:21

227:16 229:2

added 32:12

60:7 122:1

159:21

171:15 230:8

233:18 235:5

adding 59:13

59:15 68:11

227:5 229:7

230:10

addition 67:10

additional

62:18 65:6

68:17 78:16

139:14

146:22 152:5

167:21 168:9

168:13 171:4

171:15

190:21 227:6

227:8,17,18

additionally

147:1

address 81:1,7

91:22 125:7

218:6,8,8,11

addressed

135:19

137:14

139:13

addressing

85:22

adjourned

244:3

adjust 42:7

153:7,8

179:3 215:1

adjusted

152:21

178:20,22

adjusting

109:7 136:12

adjustment

189:10

adjustments

171:20

190:18

adoption

104:12

advance 57:3

advantage

80:11

advertised

106:19

advise 231:22

advocate 57:3

AEO65:2

122:15

affect 113:8

affected 43:3

179:5

affects 109:8

affirmative

157:20

affirmatively

191:17

afraid 210:19

after 7:20

24:22 72:5

78:3,5,6 99:5

101:4 158:1

175:16

afternoon

10:22 127:4

afterwards

130:1 138:19

again 8:8 18:8

31:14 32:1

32:10 42:7

43:12 45:4,9

48:17,22

53:7,21 56:7

82:2,12,16

82:20 83:19

84:16 85:22

91:19 93:21

93:22 94:8

99:20 101:14

103:15 111:2

111:4 112:19

113:20 114:6

114:16

117:13,20

119:1 122:13

126:9 140:3

152:14

162:17

166:18

174:10

188:13 208:7

219:6 225:4

227:17 236:4

240:21

241:14

against 111:21

112:1

agenda 158:9

aging 85:2

ago 19:4 23:2

139:5 203:7

agree 15:20

20:13 42:12

50:17 67:1

71:17 91:3

117:8 130:10

130:12

151:15,17

203:1 235:2

agreeable

168:18

agreed 169:21

agreement

12:19 125:20

171:3 213:10

225:10
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agreements

175:8

ahead 170:18

180:15

AHRI 18:17

22:9,13,20

34:15 35:19

36:13 64:21

86:22 90:12

134:15

209:16

air 1:3 15:9

29:6,10

36:19 54:11

54:12 55:18

55:19 56:4

59:3,21 60:2

60:8 64:5,6

75:3,12,22

76:16,17,20

76:21 77:2,8

77:11,18,19

77:20 78:1

79:2,4 107:1

148:3,6,18

148:19 150:6

150:7 154:3

160:9 163:21

164:3 172:9

198:21 202:6

202:6 208:6

209:7,20

211:15,19

214:19 229:2

230:22 231:2

231:6,12

232:5

airflow 26:7,8

27:4,6 68:18

183:2,3

203:16,22

204:1 211:15

215:2 222:16

airflows

176:22 182:2

airside 59:18

Alex 7:10

alike 241:21

Alison 3:8 5:18

all 4:4 8:16

10:5 15:21

16:1,8,19

28:12,13

31:1 32:11

33:12 35:12

39:9,12 42:4

44:7 46:21

48:14 49:1

51:21 52:21

53:1,8 54:4

55:15 60:10

62:8 79:22

81:18,21

83:3 86:4

87:6 88:10

88:16 89:22

91:5 94:5

95:6,7 99:20

102:2,9

104:11,17

105:13

109:17

111:16

117:10

118:16

119:18 120:7

122:2 123:1

123:9 124:14

126:6,18

127:8,10

129:11

134:22

136:16

138:16

139:20,21

142:21 145:8

146:7,11

149:17

166:15 169:8

170:6 176:22

178:8 182:21

184:1 186:2

186:4 187:11

190:4 191:4

192:7 196:12

198:1 199:8

199:13

203:21

204:10

205:20

206:21 209:4

212:13

218:10

219:10

220:13

221:12 224:4

228:3 229:16

230:16

232:12 233:4

237:2 241:1

241:19,22

allow 41:15

243:18

allowed 58:9

almost 27:20

51:5 52:15

52:18,21

53:1 93:8

124:11

181:20

195:22

206:20 237:1

237:2

along 80:6

107:21

213:14

221:10

237:18

already 4:6

6:21 7:19

18:10,13

113:1 122:17

126:10

128:15 146:8

189:21 190:6

195:9 196:13

198:4 199:17

212:11,15

217:21

also 6:4 7:6,22

14:4,13 26:9

26:11 31:18

33:3 52:13

58:16 63:8

73:16 85:15

91:3 110:2

114:9 120:7

132:13

134:14,15

148:13 150:6

151:19,22

152:20 153:7

158:12,15,21

170:10 175:9

176:13

184:21

191:15

192:16 226:1

227:13,20

230:13,15

231:15

232:15,18

235:5 237:4

239:3 243:9

alter 113:22

114:8

alternate 7:8

7:11 14:9

alternates' 7:6

alternative

221:14

alternatively

199:21

although 10:1

17:17 46:17

161:15

aluminized

13:8

always 36:9

47:18,19

87:22 150:15

194:8 199:5

204:15 208:8

am 52:20

75:10 185:13

196:8,9

220:8 245:7

245:9,10

ambience 79:4

87:13 88:22

ambient 29:12

82:8 112:7

113:2 116:6

117:19 128:2

131:5 218:3

ammonia 79:5

amongst

144:4

amortized

167:14

amount 25:4

55:14 61:18

84:12 94:3

100:20 107:8

110:1 114:1

119:5 148:14

148:18

153:20 156:6

183:19

analyses

44:21 115:18

168:4 171:15

173:3 177:19

177:20

187:11

analysis 11:5

11:7,14 12:1

12:16 13:14

19:3 30:14

35:19 36:6
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

3

43:9 44:2

45:17,19

54:11 62:2

64:12 66:9

69:10 83:14

90:12 91:13

91:20 92:2,4

92:5,13 98:4

98:12 102:1

102:4,18

105:4 106:17

109:5 115:1

115:11

116:22 117:7

122:18 123:8

126:13 127:9

127:18

129:13,22

131:4 133:10

135:15

146:13 147:3

153:13

161:12 171:5

172:11,12,17

173:22

175:10

176:21 178:2

178:11 179:7

182:11

190:20 191:5

196:1 197:4

198:11

207:14 208:2

210:17,20

222:4,6,8

226:12 230:4

analyze 46:7

analyzed 31:2

62:14 236:19

analyzing 43:6

49:12 223:6

and/or 32:19

65:22 66:2

Andrew 2:8

5:8 6:17 7:13

17:14 37:18

51:13,21

56:16 57:16

59:12 126:1

134:7 141:9

144:10 155:8

160:21

161:18

162:16 164:6

169:3 196:19

196:22

220:20 234:4

angle 179:13

animal 203:15

another 11:13

13:14 26:10

48:12 66:11

66:16 67:2

67:10,11,16

67:21 82:4

86:20 104:16

121:19

137:14

163:20

188:22 194:6

194:6,6

195:5 225:12

230:2 241:6

answer 36:14

52:2 96:22

101:2 104:16

117:10 119:9

119:22

131:15

132:18

142:17,19

157:20 181:6

221:18 224:8

234:14

239:18

answered

220:10

answers 43:17

221:5,8,11

anybody7:15

21:15 27:20

142:5 173:10

173:14

178:16 188:1

189:20

anymore

183:13

anyone 13:11

15:17 67:19

106:4

anything 9:6

10:11 15:17

16:3 55:1

64:4 110:16

129:7 145:11

150:5

anyway 61:21

84:10 116:9

125:19

anyways

143:18

146:10

anywhere

153:19

apart 119:11

appears

184:13

Appliance 5:8

application

40:6

applications

27:17 226:7

applied 32:6

139:20 148:2

224:2

applies 233:17

apply 71:5

117:20 118:3

141:19,22

142:1 191:19

214:16,17

218:5

applying 41:10

appreciate

17:2 225:12

appreciated

48:3

approach

61:16 115:3

115:3,5

118:21 202:4

206:12

225:17

233:20,21

approaching

43:20

appropriate

200:13 211:7

approximate

119:3,4

181:10

Approximat...

18:20

approximates

115:13

approximati...

193:1

April 220:4

AQMD 17:15

17:16

area 11:10

17:22 20:20

31:17 79:5

104:18 128:4

178:22 179:1

185:8,11

191:12,14

192:15 193:4

198:7 200:9

200:13,14

areas 72:6

78:21 221:12

aren't 23:22

56:10 87:18

140:9 143:9

172:5

argue 208:18

ARHI 19:11

around 4:9 7:6

35:5 69:16

102:2 111:9

137:16 143:2

143:2 152:10

207:2,4

arranged

181:13

aside 7:22

137:21 141:5

ask 15:4 35:18

47:8 57:22

102:3 134:11

134:14 142:3

155:12,17

157:18

158:14,15

159:10,15

204:8,17

214:7,13

235:13

asked 8:21

26:17 65:16

169:4,6,8

asking 25:7

48:6 95:22

170:2 174:7

187:9 204:4

233:19

aspects

167:17,17

ASRAC1:1

assemble

147:2

assess 66:8

128:5

assessing

12:16

assigned

96:17

assigning

96:12
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

associated

40:19,22

76:17

association

139:2 160:10

assume 14:5

33:7 52:8

71:15 81:21

105:8 136:12

182:16 228:9

229:11 231:1

231:11

234:18 236:1

assumed

115:18

assuming

85:18 88:8

104:10 105:5

182:22 183:9

212:9 228:2

229:1,7

assumption

41:10 66:13

88:7 96:15

114:10

115:10,22

121:12

127:19

213:22

228:22 231:5

assumptions

11:7 82:9

93:9 126:19

131:9 214:3

226:13 229:8

assure 72:1

attached 27:19

attachment

7:7 155:3

attempting

125:12

attendance

4:8

attention 8:2

attorney 245:8

245:10

attractive 42:9

atypically 75:1

author 7:15

authorized

245:4

autonomous

105:17 123:3

available 21:3

23:22 57:19

78:20,21

79:18 92:12

179:20 224:3

229:18 232:8

average 30:22

32:12 91:6

151:11

197:13

223:20 224:9

225:7 232:21

233:18

240:17 242:5

averaged

223:1 224:20

averages

224:14,17

averaging

233:10,14,15

avoided

166:22

aware 59:7

110:2 143:5

202:7

Awareness

5:9

away 39:17

105:16

145:11

196:12

B

back 4:9 7:20

11:22 13:20

19:13 26:11

37:20 41:7

44:14 49:19

51:22 52:3,5

58:21 61:10

62:12 67:9

70:14 72:4

75:9 77:21

84:8 86:14

86:21 88:3

88:12,16

93:5,8 94:16

97:9 98:1

106:8,9,14

107:12 109:6

112:20

115:17,17

117:2 119:15

122:22,22

123:1 124:10

124:15 125:3

125:4 126:2

134:4,11

136:17,18

147:16 156:8

156:15

165:11

168:11

170:11,16,18

173:3,9

180:22 181:1

204:21 220:7

220:18

236:13 239:4

backup 108:16

backwards

91:8 134:4

154:4

bad 154:8

ball 103:16

Bantle 2:2 4:2

4:3,14 6:1,7

10:9 129:17

129:20 130:4

130:8 132:21

133:9,16

134:1 171:8

Barkas 4:15

barrier 58:12

barriers 58:16

base 43:2,7,10

44:2 115:10

139:16 161:4

161:10,19

162:9,17

163:12 165:8

165:14,18

174:20

208:19

212:10

226:18

229:19,19

230:5

base-case

89:12,13

based 6:6

18:13 22:1

23:5,6,7,9

33:6 34:13

34:14 36:7

36:20 62:8

64:13,21

67:14 69:10

81:3 84:15

92:18 110:14

115:6 121:7

131:7,12

146:18

148:14 152:8

152:10

171:17 174:6

179:19 181:8

195:17 198:7

206:13

213:18 222:5

222:12 225:4

229:8 230:5

230:6 232:14

236:18

240:20 241:8

242:5

baseline 11:8

32:22 105:11

105:16 123:2

123:7 146:13

146:15 172:3

181:19

192:12

212:21 213:5

232:13,17

233:4 241:2

243:10,12

basic 21:22

31:9 32:15

227:1 231:16

basically

24:18 52:21

80:22 83:4

92:6 98:7

115:21 154:2

163:6,6

169:20 189:2

191:2 208:12

209:6

basis 83:15

84:5,7

172:16

173:16

176:21

177:19 183:2

bat 177:15

Battaglia 2:3

221:21,22

222:2 224:16

225:1,4,14

228:7 229:13

230:3 231:1

231:8,13,20

232:9 233:3

233:8,13

234:20 235:1

235:4,10,22
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

236:3,17

237:4,10,19

238:2,10

240:19 242:4

242:21 243:9

243:13

battery 80:19

Bay 17:22

beast 234:7

beating 52:5

bed 93:18

126:12

before 4:12

6:8 10:12

24:22 30:17

44:6 54:18

54:19 64:5

64:11 69:12

77:17 80:7

80:21 82:6

86:8 101:5

109:2 119:12

125:6 127:16

128:9 132:21

133:6,7

135:16,19

136:8 144:4

144:5 178:14

196:20

214:11

235:17

243:20

begin 72:3

beginning

17:18

being 19:19

31:16 39:17

52:18 59:5

62:12 66:6,7

74:18 79:8

79:19 81:3

84:3,3 85:12

94:3,5 96:9

106:19

126:12 146:5

163:5 179:20

215:1 241:22

believe 4:11

52:15 70:19

100:4,4

142:22 143:1

believed 90:6

below 27:10

38:17 43:5

55:7 65:22

66:2 69:11

94:8 102:8

143:17

226:17

231:10

232:11 233:4

239:20

benefit 22:10

52:10 60:17

89:9,18

111:18

Berkeley

109:16

besides 35:7

235:14

best 38:20

194:16 208:1

better 8:14

23:21 38:20

38:20 61:12

93:15 105:13

145:21

195:12 224:4

between 36:22

70:3 75:20

98:20 108:1

108:3 115:8

118:19 119:9

120:11

122:17 129:7

149:15

160:19 168:2

172:8 192:12

202:14

209:17

211:12 221:7

231:5 233:6

bid 151:4

big 13:14

42:10,20,21

49:16 51:3

56:22 57:13

57:15 64:19

99:2 120:4

120:12

121:22 123:6

123:11 132:1

145:22

167:10

186:10

194:22 201:2

218:15

228:15

bigger 51:7

61:18 112:1

147:21

148:18

153:22 162:3

167:2 192:16

196:14,14

206:8 238:18

biggest 197:22

Bill's 75:4

billion 45:14

96:9

bins 127:20

131:22

bit 7:22 9:3

14:19 33:2

42:16,16

60:7 61:9,17

85:16 87:20

90:18 112:21

117:5 137:18

151:20 196:1

207:8 212:7

226:8 228:12

242:11

black 232:10

blast 83:13

84:12 85:8

86:2 88:3

91:15 92:14

92:17 93:9

94:1,6,10

102:5,21

103:1 110:3

112:22

117:13

blowing 211:9

blue 99:10

199:11

232:20 233:9

board 74:11

boards 227:12

Bob 5:7 10:15

15:10 18:15

35:3 36:16

38:4,5 40:3

59:10 62:3

63:7 64:3

66:10 69:5

71:18 75:2

76:15 140:2

142:19

150:21

155:13

156:17,18

157:16 165:7

185:4 192:6

Bob's 73:22

74:10

bogged

210:19

book 8:20

books 101:17

both 16:6 25:8

44:2,10 50:2

50:13 53:6

89:13 114:3

159:7 165:18

179:3 180:19

184:20

218:22

232:15

240:12

bottom 30:20

181:13,17

218:1

bottom-line

53:12

bought 57:21

Boulevard 1:8

bound 117:4,5

bounding

116:22 117:3

box 49:22 50:1

50:12,15

72:9 193:8

193:11,12

194:20,22

195:1 197:22

197:22

200:16,22

201:7 226:2

boxes 183:22

184:3,7

203:21

bracket 128:20

break 6:9 80:7

116:18

124:10

159:18 170:2

170:8 193:13

194:3,5

206:22 207:1

236:20

breakdowns

187:19

breakers

230:11

breaks 50:7

193:16 196:2

breath 11:18

23:19 30:16
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

31:17 32:4

32:13,17

33:22 34:9

35:13 40:10

41:6 44:3

45:12 47:4

49:14,16

51:10 53:10

68:4 172:2

172:14

176:14 180:4

189:17 191:4

195:14 198:8

199:20 200:3

203:19 205:1

206:11 215:6

219:15 232:3

238:13 239:1

bring 22:2

106:20 125:3

bringing 75:8

brings 11:19

53:12

broken 88:8

159:12

brought 63:21

86:4 145:16

BT 55:2

BTU 14:12

BTUs 16:14

55:3

bucket 42:15

buckets

121:11 210:1

228:15

build 28:20,22

28:22 29:2,3

building 10:18

41:14 42:2

75:9 77:7,17

77:19 78:5

80:14 81:4

83:13,18

84:12,15

85:8 86:2

87:10,21

92:11,18

99:8,11

101:10

102:12

104:15 105:5

105:14 111:6

112:13,17

114:7 123:3

127:21

129:14 138:4

166:21 184:2

203:19

205:21 206:6

206:9 211:14

211:22

buildings

28:13 31:3

32:18 60:16

81:13 83:9

83:10,22

85:9,20 87:8

88:22 91:15

96:11 100:22

101:10,16

103:3 107:3

110:12

112:22

113:21

114:15

117:14 118:7

121:9,13,18

122:3 128:14

131:7 138:5

205:22

built-in 230:19

bumping 61:9

bunch 61:11

184:3

burden 58:3,5

burn 75:10,11

75:13,15,18

75:20 76:3

burner 79:10

business 47:4

175:1

buy 56:1 79:18

183:13 215:6

215:10

buying54:13

C

C 2:1 3:1 4:1

192:10

cabinet 13:19

14:5 37:7

63:8,15,16

67:13,19,21

68:10 194:2

194:6,11,12

194:13 195:5

195:6,17

196:2,14

226:3 236:19

241:4,12

cabinets 62:13

241:15

cables 154:16

calculate 97:9

calculated

188:8 189:14

calculates

92:17 151:2

calculation

22:2,13 93:3

110:8 189:1

189:9

calculations

187:19

California 4:19

15:8 16:1

24:2 113:12

call 6:2 21:14

32:14 72:21

105:12

160:11

219:21

243:21 244:1

called 126:12

Calling 10:14

calls 16:16

came 62:12

90:21,21

91:2

cantilever

166:3

capable

226:20

227:21

capacities

191:22

capacity 14:11

14:18 87:16

90:4 92:17

93:4 182:10

189:4,6

193:19

194:22 195:2

198:16

199:15

201:20

202:12

207:17

211:16 218:3

230:15

capital 42:17

201:9

capture

162:17 203:2

222:10

capturing

161:9 208:14

cardboard

107:17

care 82:11

134:1

career 88:17

careful 105:15

105:19 117:5

122:21

123:13

cares 13:12

carrier 5:7

20:19 35:3

36:17 40:4

59:11 62:4

140:2,6

150:21

157:17

carve 137:20

case 13:21

32:15 35:10

41:17 43:2,7

43:10 44:2,3

47:5 52:12

54:9 88:5

89:12,14

115:21 161:4

161:10,20

162:6,9,18

163:20

164:10 179:9

181:9,9

182:21

183:18

187:22 193:5

208:19 209:1

212:10

215:19

cases 27:13

53:5 62:14

62:17 68:14

68:16 201:19

223:3

catalog 174:5

222:12,21

catch-up

123:9

categories

207:3

category 96:17

210:4,16,22

CAUCs 55:20

caucus 169:1

170:9,15
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

caught 7:2

cause 22:17

24:14 59:17

236:20

causes 29:9

63:8

caustic 58:7

CAV185:7

222:16

231:14,15

232:11 233:3

237:21

240:21

CBAS135:14

CBEC 84:15

93:21 121:1

CBECs 84:14

85:2 121:7

CBSA 138:3

CC 158:17

CEC 106:4

center 175:1

central 55:19

certain 69:19

79:5 84:19

107:7 117:19

118:8 199:14

208:16,20

232:1,6

certainly 57:20

84:6 133:5

138:14 146:8

153:14

157:12,14

173:15 175:4

177:13 198:9

200:12

214:22 219:9

221:6 242:5

CERTIFICATE

245:1

certification

20:5,8 21:19

22:9,10

29:22 30:7

46:11,12

139:13

certified 39:9

245:3

certify 142:19

245:4,7

certifying

142:15

cetera 227:20

CFM 147:13,17

148:15

181:20

CFMs 181:19

challenge

212:22

chance 142:4

158:6 187:8

change 7:4

25:1 34:7

43:11 45:20

51:9,11

55:15 83:1

85:2 90:7

91:10 98:3

102:19,20,21

118:22

119:21 120:4

121:22 148:3

150:14 178:3

179:5 192:10

192:11

194:13 195:1

207:4 228:9

235:21 236:7

changed 21:6

21:9,21 26:9

80:19 82:5

165:15

changeover

207:1

changes 12:1

35:20 102:6

120:3,4

126:17 156:4

165:17 236:7

changing

12:12 24:17

43:8 104:14

109:6 193:4

196:4 228:12

channeling

200:8

channels

184:11

characteristi...

183:3

charge 107:1

Charlie 23:15

Charlie's

23:16

chart 37:11,20

43:7 56:22

192:14

charts 200:2

chasing

156:17

chasse 38:14

199:14,16

243:7

chasses

200:17

chatting

234:12

cheapest

239:12,13,16

check 39:14

67:6 130:1

130:10

141:22

157:17

168:17 217:6

checked 34:18

42:3 86:14

93:5

chewing

125:14

Chicago 87:6

87:21 112:12

chiseling

105:16

choice 56:2

191:19 208:1

chosen 44:9

chuckle

125:10

churches

40:10

circles 212:7

circuit 146:11

146:12 177:2

177:3,5

187:2 230:10

232:16,16

236:1,2

circuitries

181:11

circuitry 181:3

181:8

circuits 180:18

181:13,16

185:10

circumstance

216:8

cities 95:1

city 81:4 83:10

city-state

75:12 76:4

claim 145:11

145:12

claiming 145:2

clarification

17:14

clarify 237:5

class 18:13

137:20 141:5

classes 48:11

53:18 171:19

176:19 192:2

clear 140:22

180:10

216:14

climate 26:21

27:3 60:13

97:6

climates 29:7

60:15

close 34:18

77:16,18

100:11 119:1

204:3

closely 226:3

226:5

closer 27:16

108:1 113:18

132:8 180:5

180:6

clout 221:19

clue 140:1

cluster 81:18

81:22

co-facilitator

4:16

coast 17:19,21

79:6 237:7

Cochran 2:5

5:11,11

code 86:16

99:11,19

101:17 114:5

123:9 141:19

codes 41:14

42:2 58:9

99:8,12

100:4 104:12

104:13

coil 56:12,12

60:2 180:18

coincided

15:21

cold 60:15

75:5,12,19

76:7,9,10

79:1

collection

134:17
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

collective

157:11

collision 15:15

15:16

color 192:15

193:2

column 32:8

101:11

columns 83:21

97:1

combination

46:5 87:12

combinations

46:7 178:6

188:6

combing

44:15

come 57:22

72:4 81:2

83:11 98:18

103:5 107:12

114:20

124:10 129:3

134:16

138:20 154:2

154:3 156:15

163:14 164:7

170:11

177:21 197:9

205:11

222:13 237:5

241:10 242:5

comes 69:17

92:8 106:11

109:9 127:12

134:11,17

140:20

145:18 201:1

238:12

comfort 30:6

comfortable

130:11

174:21

coming 15:10

31:14 76:22

77:20 110:18

112:20 130:1

136:9 190:8

commencing

65:10

comment

42:20 49:1

60:21 65:16

130:2 136:5

139:1 148:8

164:6 216:12

229:20

commented

148:12

comments

6:11 11:21

12:3 13:20

14:13 27:18

62:12 64:1

108:8 136:3

173:15

213:15

commercial

1:3 11:5,15

16:21 18:7

29:12 41:13

43:14 44:15

44:20 52:22

54:9 57:5

60:8 64:5

78:19,22

79:13 80:3

229:12,16

241:21 242:8

242:9

commission...

101:2

common

140:13 201:7

commonplace

139:7

communicat...

175:7

companies

140:7

company

139:9 140:18

145:1

compare

111:21

174:17 243:4

compared

79:8

compares

202:21

comparison

198:15 202:2

competing

40:15

completely

79:7,7

complex

107:13 227:7

228:20

complexity

38:12 201:9

202:10

226:17

compliance

100:18 101:4

101:5,6,9,12

101:16

104:13,22

123:9

compliant

38:10 100:22

239:7,8

complicated

198:13

complicating

207:20

complications

218:1

compliment

95:8

comply 142:7

239:21

component

188:6,7

components

12:14 189:8

compounding

63:12

compressor

56:8 146:12

146:14

166:11

181:13,15

203:10,12

204:10

213:18 215:1

216:15 218:3

226:21 227:3

227:22

230:13

compressors

54:11,12

56:10 146:12

171:16 177:1

177:4 186:22

216:20

219:14

227:13,15,16

230:12 236:3

concern 41:4

94:19 114:22

concerned

48:19 116:7

119:1 144:18

concerns 15:8

61:8 64:3

175:9

conclude

175:2 192:3

concluded

191:17

conclusion

83:11 196:8

concurrently

42:4

condensat

65:5

condensate

12:11,14

41:11,15

42:14 58:9

65:6,8 69:13

69:21 71:8

78:9 79:14

79:19 97:6

condensated

60:21

condensating

31:9

condensation

13:9 26:15

26:16 29:9

29:13 69:9

74:2 75:3,11

79:15

condense

42:18

condenser

56:8 137:12

137:13

139:15,20

181:14

condensing

11:17 20:21

38:18 41:13

42:8 49:13

57:5 59:13

59:16 70:9

condensity

31:5

condition

55:19 93:2

150:5

conditioner

60:2

conditioners

64:6

conditioning

1:3 36:19

55:18 56:4
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

conditions

28:13 29:8

29:13 151:9

160:15

163:18 178:1

conducted

189:3 191:7

conference

170:1

confidential

175:7

configuration

151:8

configuratio...

14:9 180:12

confirmed

88:19,20

214:6

confused 10:7

75:1

congratulati...

149:19

connected

183:21

245:10

consensus

9:18,19

130:9 171:2

conservative

22:20 25:14

conservativ...

20:10

consider 16:3

63:3 128:12

137:9 234:21

238:22

consideration

45:1 153:11

considered

6:12 43:9

44:8 231:14

231:15

considering

12:1 14:4

68:22 232:15

233:9,22

241:12

considers

146:14

consistent 7:3

190:18 192:5

192:21

212:19

constant

184:10 202:6

206:1,19

207:9 209:21

210:3 213:4

217:10 231:6

231:12,18

constant-vol...

183:10

228:22

constructed

122:16

construction

122:13 163:4

Consulting

5:15

consumed

32:18

consumer

52:10

consumption

81:20 94:12

111:5 113:5

114:4

contact 140:17

157:19

contactors

226:21 227:2

contacts

155:15

156:17

containment

16:4,5

content 74:14

200:16

contents

73:17

continue

30:13 52:5

119:12

141:18

Continued 3:1

continues

123:6,7

continuous

148:5 209:18

contractor

155:13

156:12

contractor's

153:12

contractors

155:22

163:15

contributing

110:1

contribution

48:20

control 160:9

226:14 227:1

227:6,7,8,11

227:12,17

228:13 229:2

229:3 230:19

230:22

231:11,19

234:17

controller

230:17

231:16

controlling

227:21

controls

226:11,17,19

227:11,18

228:3,8

229:5 230:5

controversial

168:18

convenient

80:8

conversation

7:3 26:11

171:7

conversations

22:22 23:1

converse

162:9,15

conversion

136:12 147:4

151:1,5

152:16 153:1

153:18

160:22 161:1

161:4,8,9,19

162:7 164:9

166:20 191:9

191:19

195:13,19

196:5,13,16

199:19

converting

147:6 150:3

convince

131:18

convinced

109:22

cool 85:3

cool-down

78:4

cooled 40:13

83:14,16

84:13,21

85:4,12,15

86:1 93:19

cooling 40:19

40:22 41:2

48:1 58:1

59:19 60:4,4

60:11 71:21

83:6 84:1,4,6

85:16,20

97:20 102:16

108:17 111:6

121:10,16,19

122:14,16

127:19 128:1

128:13 131:5

137:2 240:17

copper 104:18

correct 30:9

32:3 38:22

39:3,5 40:20

52:20 86:2

137:10 142:9

180:13,20

224:16 225:1

231:20

237:10 242:4

correcting

45:6

correction

122:14

correctly

149:20

correlated

82:7

correlation

179:20 180:1

180:3 192:18

213:20

correlations

180:10

188:11

190:15 191:5

199:18

correspondi...

191:3

corrosion

20:21 46:16

79:6,12

corrosion-re...

12:18,22

cost 15:5

31:15 32:3

32:12 37:22

51:10 62:8
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

62:19 65:6

66:9 67:22

91:18 101:4

101:5 127:11

147:5 167:17

176:5,6,8,9

176:13

200:20

201:16

219:17,20

222:3,9,11

222:11,20,22

223:14 224:2

225:17,21

227:6 228:14

228:16

232:10,21

233:22 234:2

234:18

235:20 236:4

236:5,16

237:5,19

239:6,6,21

241:10,15

242:2,3,6

243:2

cost-review

72:5

costing 222:5

costs 31:4,8,9

31:10,11,12

32:6,7,11

42:16,17

51:5 54:21

63:12 65:9

66:11 114:4

166:15,15

222:13 223:7

223:19

225:15 226:8

227:17 229:3

229:7,8

232:17 235:5

235:6,14

236:10,17

241:8 242:13

243:5

coughing

31:22 50:7

55:22 66:1

66:14 137:20

138:16

159:22 176:7

208:17

213:21,22

218:2 225:15

227:20

Coughlin 2:6

5:19,19

109:15

114:13

118:12,18,21

120:19

122:12

127:15 131:1

counsel 220:6

245:8,10

counsel's

220:1

count 23:6,8,9

23:10

country 69:19

84:7,10

couple 86:7

99:5 100:15

108:8 126:18

134:20

190:11

216:22 221:1

coupled 90:4

111:22

course 16:1

63:4 81:14

101:3 169:4

Court 23:12,15

80:19

cover 7:19

16:20

covered

217:20,22

covering 37:2

covers 16:14

crack 54:7

crank 126:9,11

153:14

crazy 106:3

create 225:21

created 164:4

229:16

creative

228:18

criteria 85:1

criterion 85:1

crossed 221:9

cry 116:21

curb 225:18

232:10

curbs 63:9

curious 182:6

current 12:9

14:7,7 46:21

119:19 142:9

213:6 230:13

currently

12:15 159:2

curve 94:22

151:3,5,10

152:16 153:1

155:4 158:11

160:22 161:4

161:8 162:7

162:9,15

163:11 164:9

165:8 166:20

167:5 176:3

190:22

191:12,14,19

192:1,5,6,10

192:11 193:4

194:6,13

195:8,14,20

196:5,13,16

198:7 199:19

200:10,12

237:20

241:11 243:1

curves 136:12

147:4 151:1

153:18 159:5

160:11 161:1

161:9,19

176:6,12

191:9

customer

57:21,22

215:5 239:10

239:10

customers

39:6

cut 113:3

117:18 142:5

cut-and-dry

199:5

cutoffs 111:11

cutting 107:17

CV 215:19

cycle 65:7

71:18

cycles 71:22

72:5

cycling 72:2

75:4

Cymbalsky 2:4

5:12,12 7:5

8:13 9:2

10:11 19:10

22:7 23:17

33:5,10,19

35:6 37:14

39:9,14

49:18 50:5

64:7,14,18

64:22 65:14

66:17 70:1

70:13,17,21

71:2 72:12

72:20 73:2

73:15,21

74:7,19

78:11 80:5

93:11 95:22

100:7,18

103:14,18

104:1,9

105:1 117:2

118:10

122:19

124:13 125:2

125:14

129:15,18

130:17

133:17 134:3

137:17

140:21 141:4

141:11,14,20

142:1 144:22

145:6,10,16

216:18,21

219:19

237:13,15

D

D 4:1

damned 91:9,9

damper 77:18

dangerous

110:11

Darmington

2:7 5:16,16

29:14

data 31:15

41:8 51:22

52:3 65:1

80:14 82:15

86:21 87:1

104:11

106:11,13

113:4,11

114:14 121:9

134:17,19
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

135:4 151:6

159:16 165:4

174:5 176:10

177:11

209:16

210:21 225:9

date 9:20

134:15,16

Dated 245:12

dates 8:5

DAV233:6

Dave 3:9 5:4

20:16 28:18

40:7 44:12

45:4 50:10

50:17 51:14

54:18 68:1

75:14

Dave's 49:19

50:5

David 53:11

day 9:4,10

72:4 75:5

91:7 219:21

243:21 244:1

245:12

days 107:3

190:12

DDC 230:18

231:2 232:1

232:7

de-coupled

222:8

de-rated 33:16

dead 52:6 59:1

deadline 160:5

deal 64:9 99:2

110:6 120:12

123:6 128:19

144:11

173:15 175:5

dealing 17:7

81:12 101:7

205:6

dealt 146:8

debate 93:20

191:20

deceiving

184:1

decide 8:19

136:8 144:1

decided 147:6

167:21

deciding 174:5

decision 47:4

104:4 115:6

138:20

153:15

decisions

47:20 67:21

decline 27:16

44:16,20

100:15

declining 48:7

dedicated

76:20

deficiency

32:15 225:21

define 131:13

definitely

27:11 51:7

89:5 115:18

242:13

definitive

65:18 197:10

definitively

68:5 191:18

degradation

215:4

degree 81:6

87:7

degrees 69:15

69:17,18

71:7 74:12

109:21

degress 69:12

deLaski 2:8

5:8,8 6:16

8:19 17:13

17:18 21:11

26:10 33:18

37:18 38:4

38:19 39:1,4

51:13 56:16

58:15 134:6

134:7 135:2

135:6,9

141:9,13,16

141:21 142:3

142:17 143:2

144:2,12,16

145:15,19

155:8 160:21

161:13 162:8

162:12,16,21

163:1 164:11

164:20 165:4

166:17 167:3

167:9,14

169:3,12,15

169:19

196:19 197:1

197:12,15

199:10 200:4

234:3,10,12

239:2,14

delta 242:2,6,9

delusion 119:2

demand

218:10,14

239:10

density 178:22

179:2

department

135:4 155:17

departments

240:6

depend 173:4

depending 9:5

26:21 38:7

79:4 147:12

151:8 163:5

181:10

194:19

depends 50:13

54:19 56:7

68:3 150:8

197:21

199:13

228:17,17

Depot 210:10

derated 29:20

derived 85:18

describe 126:3

130:18 181:2

described

154:19

208:13

describing

208:9

descriptions

176:20

177:22

187:16

design 15:16

29:2 37:2

38:5,11,13

38:19 47:1

71:10,12

72:3,5 74:4

92:18 140:11

150:15

153:19 154:6

154:8 159:1

159:2 160:16

172:6 180:21

197:8 203:18

206:4 222:16

236:7

designed

12:10 38:9,9

38:16 80:2

139:14,19

designing

27:6 74:4,8

designs 12:10

37:3

detail 119:6

138:5 176:18

187:18 212:1

detailed 121:9

127:17

129:22

details 31:8,12

32:1 142:21

172:6 178:16

179:12

determined

236:20

Detlef 3:6 5:14

129:12

135:13

180:14

189:21 200:4

214:4 229:17

develop

178:10

developed

25:9 171:21

176:8,9,13

190:16

developing

176:12

development

15:22 25:8

65:20 66:4

71:18,20,21

71:22

Diane 78:11,13

Dick 10:16,16

64:7 80:10

87:20 94:13

96:22 105:22

109:2,9

126:3 130:19

231:22 238:4

Dick's 115:16

dictates 93:2

difference

37:21 89:21
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

98:20,21

102:9,9

109:14

149:15

160:19 162:1

162:2 164:1

202:14,20

211:12 212:4

212:9 218:15

231:5 233:2

233:5 234:18

241:8,12

242:10

differences

14:14 172:8

different 33:2

36:18 37:2

74:9,17 79:7

80:2 83:11

94:5 107:15

113:13 131:5

143:19

156:22,22

157:7 168:15

174:17

176:20 178:1

186:22

190:18 191:4

191:8 193:19

198:18

203:15 206:4

211:11,14

224:10,10

226:2 231:11

238:20 240:5

240:13 241:3

241:4,11,20

differently

203:18

difficult

174:15 175:2

difficulty 62:15

dig 114:17

digest 188:14

digested 125:8

dimensions

198:7,9

diminish

138:18

direct 156:3

direction

90:18 154:3

154:9

directly 160:2

directory

18:18 19:11

19:12 21:5

21:13 34:15

34:21 35:19

36:10 59:9

64:21

directory's

35:22

disabled

123:17

disabling

107:11

123:21

disagree 38:2

108:20

disagreeing

57:16,18

discharge

91:4 215:2

218:4,5

disconnect

108:10

discontinued

19:9

discuss 8:5

81:10 135:22

146:4 170:10

178:16 221:2

discussed 9:2

64:13 82:13

146:3 169:19

169:21

discussing

16:15,17

discussion

14:14 57:9

62:6 80:18

135:21 136:3

144:9 155:7

168:16

172:13 180:8

183:6 186:5

199:22 213:8

discussions

173:5 223:22

display 188:11

disposal 61:1

dissatisfied

240:13

disti 51:18

distinctions

209:17

distribution

32:15,15

43:2,3 51:19

147:1

dividing 115:7

DL-1 146:18

154:20

DL-3 154:20

dock 28:12

docket 140:14

DOE 5:11,12

19:10 22:7,9

22:17 23:18

25:12 29:21

33:5 35:6

39:10 49:18

93:11 99:9

103:14

220:17

DOE-challen...

90:22

doing 9:4 25:3

28:8 65:19

66:4 70:9,17

88:19 89:4

113:1 116:11

116:11 123:9

125:20

127:16

128:12

130:14

131:21 140:9

169:6 181:21

182:7 198:3

210:17 223:3

237:8,11

dollar's 47:10

dollars 45:14

201:19

dominant 18:6

Doppel 2:9

4:21

Dopple 4:21

22:14,15

63:6,6,12

dot 232:14,20

233:9

double 15:22

137:9,13

139:20 217:6

double-check

4:12

doubled 167:8

downstream

128:19

172:12 178:2

178:11

190:20

draft 49:7

drained 41:15

dramatic

44:19,20

drastic 131:9

draw 59:20

drawing 77:22

drive 90:17

driven 24:14

driver 201:2

driving 24:7

drop 59:18

60:8 111:2

114:9,18

136:14,16

147:7,14,18

147:22

149:16 150:4

151:3 152:1

152:2,16

153:21

158:12 159:5

203:21

dropped 19:15

82:8 153:6

dropping

15:13

drops 69:16

148:12,19

149:14 179:4

dual 136:1,20

139:3,6

146:11,12,14

232:16

duct 136:1,20

137:9,13

139:3,6,20

139:21

142:16 143:1

143:6 154:13

154:14

ducts 136:18

137:3

ductwork

183:21

due 68:17

105:17

dumb 233:1

durability 12:9

72:1

during 63:4

69:19,20

81:14 128:1

128:8

duty 230:9
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

dynamic 149:1

E

E 2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1,1 125:1,1

e-mail 128:7

157:9

earlier 26:11

34:22 35:4,8

36:6 37:21

52:13 74:17

95:19 96:1

137:18

155:14 184:6

192:6 217:4

234:5,13,15

235:3

early 75:7

244:1

earn 39:1

easier 28:3

56:6 114:19

easiest 117:22

easily 42:7

67:15 109:8

210:15

easy 14:20

117:12

echoing 64:3

ECM 186:10

ECMs 186:17

economic

60:17

economies

201:22

economize

228:2,4,8,13

economized

83:22 84:1

85:19,19

94:4 96:10

96:16 103:3

117:14,15,16

124:15

127:21

128:13 131:6

131:10

economizer

82:22 83:6

84:9 87:22

88:8,11 95:7

95:11 98:6

98:16,19

100:13

102:11,20

106:1 107:14

108:17

110:10

111:16

114:10,21

115:22 121:7

121:22

131:19

economizers

76:21 83:16

84:3,14 85:5

85:10,13,14

86:19 87:2,8

87:14 91:15

91:16 93:19

94:19,20,21

95:2 97:14

98:15 101:20

102:13 105:9

105:15 106:5

106:22 107:7

108:10,16

109:7 110:7

114:15

115:14

119:21 121:1

121:10,14,15

121:18 122:4

122:5,11

123:4,11,15

123:19

economizing

125:8,18,22

edge 14:1

edit 7:5

educate

149:12

education

150:1

Edward 2:2

effect 81:20

82:6 91:17

91:22 94:11

97:13 113:4

125:22

128:17,21

131:9 149:2

150:3,11,19

154:2 164:4

effected 84:3

effects 65:3,5

89:16 109:6

efficiencies

59:19 196:11

200:17 241:1

efficiency 11:9

11:11 12:8

28:3 31:1

36:20,21

37:5 38:15

43:2 47:2,12

47:22 49:12

51:11 57:2,4

57:7 60:4,4

61:9,13

65:10 74:10

100:13 145:4

147:7 162:6

167:21,22

168:15

171:16 174:3

174:10

176:20 177:2

189:16 191:1

193:3 194:4

195:4,5,6,8

195:20

199:19 202:5

217:16 223:5

223:13,16,18

225:17

228:10

232:10,12

237:20 238:8

241:11 242:9

efficient 105:6

163:15 164:2

effort 47:1

114:2,6,6

Eileen 2:10

4:15 69:3

155:5 236:8

either 19:8

36:13 40:4

50:11 63:22

67:5 68:20

100:5 110:6

111:11 164:9

189:9 202:6

217:8 240:9

242:22

EL 153:3

161:22 162:3

162:15,20

172:3 198:17

198:18 212:3

212:13,14

EL-0 175:19

EL-1 98:20

174:12

EL-2 168:3

185:7 197:18

EL-2.5 169:17

184:17

EL-3 166:21

168:3 172:9

191:18 196:7

196:12

197:18 199:5

EL-3.1 168:10

EL-3.5 168:3

EL-3s 167:8

EL-4 98:20

168:9,12

186:21 192:9

EL-5 168:12

182:8,12

EL1 212:14,19

218:13

222:17

EL2 205:4

222:18

237:21

EL2.5 205:3

240:22

EL3 202:15

232:11,18

233:4,6

238:17

240:22

EL3s 195:16

EL4 213:21

215:12 217:6

218:14

223:22

Electric 4:22

15:7

elements

185:18

eliminating

128:12

ELs 188:5

else 7:15

10:11 55:18

64:4 106:4

162:13

170:10

173:10

else's 161:20

eluded 105:22

email 8:13

188:1

email's 8:14

Emerson 5:10

178:5 186:20
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

emphasis

87:15

emphasizing

48:18

employee

245:8,9

encounter

75:7

end 8:20,21

16:13,15

21:18 28:5,6

28:7 37:6

59:1 66:4

83:4 107:10

123:8 134:22

135:3 167:11

201:21

203:17 215:4

end's 28:2,4

energy 41:4,6

44:6 45:10

45:12 48:19

49:3,13 57:2

57:3 61:21

81:20 82:18

88:15 89:6

89:14 90:13

90:16,16

91:18 92:22

94:11 95:2

98:7 99:1,11

104:20

108:10

109:13,19,20

110:1 111:5

111:16,22

113:5 114:3

124:1,4,6,9

127:18 128:3

128:15 131:4

131:21 153:6

176:14

198:12 203:3

218:9,11,18

222:5,6,6,9

231:13

energy's

207:18

energy-use

171:22

enforce

104:22

engineer

149:22 154:7

159:2

engineering

11:7,14,21

12:16 64:10

66:8 115:2,6

115:12

129:13 206:9

engineers

69:11 71:7

159:2

enhancement

179:14,14

enormous

119:5 235:18

enough 8:15

13:17 14:5

14:21 68:12

82:9 83:1

117:12,22

119:1 163:21

212:1 225:5

228:15 243:1

ensure 223:19

240:12

entire 110:17

110:19

envelope

182:13

equal 50:6

225:3

equate 156:3

equation 51:9

51:11 90:7

100:21

189:12

equipment

24:19 25:15

26:4 32:20

47:11 56:1

61:10 90:13

92:5,6,8,11

93:9 100:12

104:19

105:18 108:5

108:6 119:17

119:18

123:18 126:7

142:2 147:12

164:1,2

190:1 224:12

226:15 232:7

240:20 241:5

Eric 3:2 134:10

220:17

221:16

especially

12:7 59:15

87:10 225:2

essentially

24:21 25:12

52:17 89:2

98:8 148:17

150:15

176:15

186:14 207:3

establish

53:13

established

71:7

estimate 71:5

121:7,17

131:8 151:11

222:22 223:7

243:2

estimated

31:19 32:21

224:13

estimates

25:14 235:6

et 227:19

evaluate 197:8

evaluated

172:8

evaluating

174:5 190:20

Eventually

103:18

ever 39:22

106:9

every 13:6

21:22 81:15

88:10 185:17

191:11 196:6

215:19

everybody7:9

7:11 8:14,18

55:21 125:4

134:2 172:20

173:17 188:2

194:9 238:19

everybody's

132:9 168:14

174:2 175:1

197:8

everyday

35:22

everyone 4:3

19:17 125:8

133:6 170:9

216:11

Everyone's

9:16

everything

39:12 52:18

69:4 89:20

90:5,11

162:3,13

179:11

205:15

everything's

162:6

exact 92:7

109:12 156:6

169:10

exactly 12:22

20:7 63:18

67:18 101:12

169:11 197:6

209:9 238:14

243:6

exaggeration

165:11

example 24:11

65:17 69:10

87:20 107:8

172:10 185:5

185:7 186:21

196:18 197:1

199:12

223:11,18,21

except 25:22

132:10 216:8

exchange 37:3

54:22

exchanger

13:18 14:1

16:9 29:8

50:12,18

51:5,17

53:22 54:7

54:16 55:5

59:14,15,17

59:21 62:16

69:9,22

71:19,20

74:8 76:7,8,9

76:11 78:22

79:2,20

166:12 177:8

181:3

exchangers

27:7 37:6

51:1,12 62:9

69:14 70:10

71:11,16

78:15 177:9
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

exclusively

105:7

Excuse 181:5

220:12

exercises

134:17

exist 53:13

138:1

existing 131:4

141:17,18

147:9 178:12

expand 13:17

13:18

expanded 14:2

expanding

94:20,21

expands 14:6

expect 33:9

37:7 177:12

193:2,7

200:13 221:8

expectation

148:21

192:20

expecting

79:14,15

expense 201:9

expensive

56:4 59:4

201:4 239:17

experience

51:20

experts 17:8

31:17

explain 127:14

explanation

101:12

explicitly

131:13

extended 70:6

182:13

extensions

161:17

extent 78:1

91:22 110:9

151:22 154:5

200:21

external 90:14

152:4,5

153:8 158:13

158:15

190:18,22

extra 162:10

extrapolate

223:14

243:14

extrapolated

243:11

extrapolating

223:9

extrapolation

243:18

extreme

102:14

114:12

extremely 31:4

eye 7:2

eyes 43:18

F

F 125:1

fabricator

149:21

face 108:18

185:8,11

facilitator

212:6

facilitators

221:17

fact 31:7 51:19

181:16

239:15

factor 29:21

30:6,7 49:8

90:8

factoring

234:2

factors 73:16

73:22 90:2,2

122:14 215:4

224:5

facts 32:18

52:16

factually 52:2

Fahrenheit

69:12,15,17

69:18

fail 54:15

failed 114:15

123:16,16

failing 123:18

failure 101:20

102:4,22

106:6 107:16

114:10

115:13,22

118:3,9,14

120:8 121:5

failures 118:15

fair 183:19

fairly 107:13

109:8,18

165:3,17

fall 27:17 76:5

falls 199:15

false 119:2

familiar 140:5

fan 12:13

59:20 60:9

82:2,4,18

89:20 90:16

91:2 98:18

98:22 110:2

110:3,5

131:5 147:16

154:3 166:12

177:8 179:4

179:12 183:1

183:3 184:4

185:20 186:1

191:2 203:3

227:13

228:12

fan-driven

98:11

fancy 208:21

fans 87:16

89:8,8

111:18

160:17 183:8

184:8 186:17

227:9 230:12

far 19:13 25:8

27:14,14

42:2 48:18

66:7 82:20

110:14

119:11

128:10 178:6

farenheit 71:7

fast 48:12

favor 98:10,13

favors 90:15

feedback 12:8

14:16 46:3

173:1 176:11

190:1 225:16

227:8,19,21

233:19 241:9

feel 112:12

feels 9:5

feet 185:11

FEMALE9:8

9:13,18

20:14 42:12

130:15 132:6

132:9,11

133:19,22

140:8,11

149:4,6,11

156:20

165:13 180:5

237:18

fewer 182:16

field 73:12

202:8

figure 14:22

26:3 72:6

88:4 113:17

138:12,15

156:15

198:11

figuring 196:1

files 112:8

final 7:1

finally 4:10

82:12

financially

245:11

find 56:20 57:8

91:3 127:1

153:12

160:10 167:4

174:12

findings 124:6

fine 26:20,20

93:13 147:11

149:20 165:5

170:22

Fingers 221:9

finish 135:20

fire 10:12

11:14 47:11

fired 52:15

firing 79:20

first 4:7 7:22

9:4 12:5,5

15:20 16:20

29:19 30:22

44:7 54:4

63:1 64:10

81:2 102:2

109:17

112:16

131:20 144:9

146:11

176:22

185:16

190:16

fit 63:16 67:15
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

92:9 236:21

242:19

fits 155:4

five 31:20

33:17 204:13

205:4 220:19

229:16

fix 7:14 91:7

107:3,15

fixed 89:21

95:6 111:21

flag 161:13

flagging

145:20

flat 11:16

flat-out 96:15

flatbed 237:3

flexible 127:11

flights 8:20

flipping 83:3

floor 121:14

121:15

122:16

213:10

floorspace

202:11

flow 107:1

148:3,6,19

150:7

flowing 164:3

flue 79:14

flying 237:15

FMCS 4:3,14

focus 32:9

85:6 105:21

141:6,15

focused 66:19

focussed 87:2

focussing

91:19

foil 56:8

fold 49:2

folks 82:14

142:18 144:4

156:13

235:13

follow 51:8

71:3 86:15

134:8 162:7

follow-up

26:10 51:14

76:14

following

164:5

foot 97:8,10,19

102:17 200:8

footage 83:15

83:16 84:13

84:21 85:4,5

85:12,14,19

86:2 93:19

94:3 96:9,13

96:17

footprint 199:8

force 100:16

forced 106:1

forcing 95:10

foregoing

245:5

foreign 230:12

forgot 129:4

formally 29:19

formed 69:21

forming 69:13

formulations

161:16

forth 88:13

forum 4:12 6:6

forward 45:6

92:5 134:5

136:8 141:1

176:12

221:11

found 54:12

93:7 108:9

134:12

146:16,21

202:19

226:19

four 33:17

101:9,9

184:11

190:16

204:13,22

205:3 211:9

211:12 216:5

216:21 217:2

219:16

four-stage

184:17 211:6

fraction 39:20

85:11 86:1

93:18 110:4

fractions 33:2

85:6,7

frame 43:11

free 91:4

free-standing

53:1

free-style

52:16

frequency

18:2 32:10

71:5

fresh 29:10

frictional

148:22

fringe 47:19

242:16

front 143:14

175:1 180:22

181:1

full 77:4 127:9

160:5 184:18

185:2 223:5

225:21 243:1

243:2

full-on 148:3

Fully 167:14

function 49:11

82:10 150:4

150:10

191:13,13

funny 19:21

furnace 10:19

11:5 30:14

38:6 48:6

49:21,22

52:22 54:1,5

54:6 80:3

furnaces 8:1

11:15 14:15

23:20 41:13

43:14 52:11

52:15,22

53:2 57:5

64:5 78:18

78:19

further 29:14

107:21

129:17,22

146:16

155:17

168:20

169:16 245:7

future 10:4

67:4 122:9

G

G 4:1

galvanized

72:8

game 166:14

gas 11:14 15:6

18:2 27:21

28:1,4,5

30:20 31:20

36:18,22

37:3,4,5

39:20,21

41:13 44:2

44:10 45:2

45:20,21

46:11 47:15

48:9,14 50:4

52:16,17

53:2,6,16,18

53:19 59:22

60:14 73:16

74:13 78:15

78:22 79:1,9

79:14,20

gas-fired

32:20

gave 88:10

112:13

gears 107:9

gelling 126:7

general 144:9

144:17 159:3

201:3,13

220:6 228:3

generalization

201:11

generally

163:15

generate

88:21

generated

88:14

generation

106:5,19

generic 27:20

gentleman

23:13

getting 4:5

10:7 13:1

16:22 44:6

49:13 77:20

89:18 96:14

105:6,7

116:15

150:11 173:6

177:12

183:19

192:16

209:16 213:9

213:19 222:2

give 10:22

44:4 89:17
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

111:2 128:4

134:12,16

146:4 157:19

160:1 174:8

188:1 201:3

201:15 221:5

given 15:2

38:14 41:17

104:11

116:10 148:5

155:6 193:2

209:11

gives 6:5

99:20 171:13

190:17

giving 111:11

169:8

glad 15:10

glass 53:13

go 4:9 8:8 9:16

11:8,17 15:5

17:12 29:2

31:7 33:7

34:7,11,11

36:22 41:7

42:4 44:14

51:22 52:3,4

59:13,16

61:18 62:13

62:22 64:8

69:15 72:2,9

72:10,11

80:8 88:3

91:8 93:13

94:16 96:5

97:9 98:1

106:14

107:14

110:21 111:3

111:17 115:4

115:16,17

120:2,9,12

137:16 141:1

148:11

154:13,17

170:18

177:20

180:14

183:15

184:10 185:5

188:21

192:14 195:7

196:12,12

197:3 199:12

200:19,20

201:20,20

202:17

203:11

204:21

214:11

228:12 235:9

237:1,2

goal 63:14

173:18

God 73:19

125:12,16

goes 14:15

27:11 70:7

93:8 102:7,8

128:10

152:13

165:11

194:11 217:2

going 8:11,16

8:22 10:9

12:1 13:9

15:3 17:12

17:21 20:9

20:19,20

26:19 29:2

30:13,15

31:6 32:19

34:7 36:9

37:4,9,20

39:1,2 40:12

40:19,22

41:21 42:7

45:1,6,18

47:8,21

48:21 49:1,3

50:8,14 56:3

58:21 59:14

59:17,18,20

62:8,18 63:3

64:22 67:1,9

68:8 69:20

70:14 71:8

71:12 72:2,9

72:11 74:2

75:7 78:9

81:11 87:9

87:18 89:5,6

89:8,10,17

92:5,6 97:15

98:3 103:8

103:18,19,20

104:17 106:8

107:18 109:6

111:7 114:7

114:7,20

115:11,16,17

117:1,22

118:22,22

119:4,8,9,13

120:9 122:10

122:20,21,22

123:19 125:2

126:8 128:16

130:18

131:17 134:3

135:14

144:19

152:22 153:2

153:3,5

154:4,8

158:2 161:21

162:7 168:11

170:18

173:21 176:5

182:15,15,17

184:3,4,4,9

186:8,15

192:9,11

194:5,8,13

195:1,15,17

195:19

196:12 197:9

197:10

203:10,17

204:2 206:10

207:10 208:6

208:21 209:2

209:4 211:11

212:6 214:5

214:5 215:3

215:6,22

218:15

219:19

221:13

235:22

236:20 238:8

240:1 244:1

gone 7:20

49:10 81:8

88:12 95:3

106:9 193:15

219:10

good 4:2 9:12

9:14 11:3,21

22:18 38:20

39:17 46:10

70:21 80:9

95:9 105:10

108:21 119:7

126:8 150:9

153:4 154:6

156:10

157:21

163:18 165:3

180:17 203:7

213:14

Goodman 5:6

68:15 137:8

139:8

got 9:16 11:21

12:8 13:20

14:16 50:21

55:4,10

59:16 60:9

85:10 94:4

97:1 107:3

108:14

122:21

123:12

126:17,19

132:13

139:21 151:6

151:13

152:11

154:12,12,13

154:14

162:19

175:22

186:19

187:22

201:21,21

203:14 204:9

205:3,4,19

205:20 206:5

209:22

212:14 214:1

231:19 232:6

238:20 240:1

240:5,6

243:19

gotten 69:4

grade 65:16,22

66:2

grades 13:1

graph 43:16

grappling

13:11

great 15:1 57:6

110:6 129:7

135:9 138:9

198:1 237:4

greater 84:22

193:3

green 99:15,17

199:7
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

Greg 2:18 5:13

41:7 43:12

44:12 48:21

62:3 88:12

105:12 109:4

110:20

121:11

131:17

182:15

Greg's 88:18

93:12

grey 233:8

ground 6:9,10

6:13 7:7,13

7:15

group 1:5 8:15

9:5 12:4 36:1

46:3 63:5

113:14 132:2

136:8 145:22

155:6 156:8

156:11 160:2

169:6,22

170:1 188:2

220:19

grouping

81:18

grow 57:6

166:4

growing 73:17

growth 192:4

guess 11:19

20:11 25:6

36:8 37:10

41:22 46:13

52:1 61:10

88:6 97:17

103:1 108:4

114:16 115:2

115:20 116:3

116:3 118:12

131:20 136:9

136:21

139:22 142:3

142:14

143:22

152:14,15

153:11

156:16

164:12 165:6

180:16

197:10

205:12 212:8

214:14 225:6

239:2 243:10

guessing 78:6

guesstimating

156:5

guidance

146:4 214:12

guidances

217:17

guy 148:8

149:9,12

239:22

guys 13:6 17:3

36:5 57:12

63:22 90:6

94:22 97:18

120:1 128:8

156:1 158:14

163:2 204:5

237:13

H

half 18:20

21:10 70:14

85:21 171:17

171:18,18

188:4 192:8

193:20 194:1

194:4,12

200:20 202:4

222:17,19

223:12 224:1

halfway 115:8

hand 78:12

129:11

173:12

handle 12:11

26:16 139:14

195:12

handouts

187:22 188:2

happen 68:8

92:14 117:22

154:19

186:15 234:6

happening

24:19 26:5

51:16 107:13

107:19

234:14

happens 48:2

54:20 65:12

207:1,4

happy 111:3

240:14

hard 56:13

67:3 201:5,6

207:7

hardly 52:11

Harris 61:6

Harvey 2:19

5:2 29:16

39:16 42:13

42:19 43:12

47:7 48:18

48:22 49:6

52:4 57:14

57:14 60:18

74:22 76:2,6

105:20 106:7

106:20

116:20

130:13

132:18

136:19 160:8

166:8 200:11

201:2 224:7

225:11

235:17

240:10

has 6:2 7:7

21:17,20

28:7 30:3

31:11 48:14

50:13 57:19

58:17 72:1

72:22 75:2

78:12 79:11

81:4,20

82:10,17

84:12,13

85:13 86:18

91:17 94:2

94:11 95:8

103:7 105:11

105:22 106:1

106:4,4,9

109:2,4

110:6 111:16

113:1,5

115:9 123:2

133:6 136:2

158:6 166:11

166:12 172:4

173:14 177:6

177:9 183:10

188:3 189:20

202:16

211:16

hasn't 57:20

57:21 58:22

hat 26:14

haven't 62:21

65:18 81:12

106:18

127:11 139:3

146:7 175:13

187:11,21

191:17 193:9

193:14

having 13:18

16:3 24:20

25:16 46:11

50:19 58:19

81:15 87:12

92:1 183:20

202:10

he'll 182:16

240:2,8

head 103:21

196:22

207:10 235:9

headed 199:18

hear 39:22

46:10 58:15

200:5 216:11

220:1

heard 29:17

30:2 41:14

66:22 74:17

144:22 161:2

217:15 234:5

234:15

hearing 35:14

38:4,5 67:12

116:21

135:15

216:18,21

heat 13:18,22

16:9 27:7

29:8 37:3,4,5

37:6 38:13

38:14,15

50:11,18

51:1,5,12,17

53:22 54:7

54:16 55:5

59:13,15,17

59:21 62:9

62:15 69:9

69:13,21

70:10 71:11

71:16,19,20

74:8 76:7,8,9

76:10 78:15

78:22 79:2

79:20 111:5
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

19

177:7,9

216:16

heated 53:14

heater 166:11

heaters 41:1

heating 18:7

77:17 82:2

87:11 206:5

240:16

heats 37:3

heavily 210:6

210:7

heavy 152:15

219:21 230:9

241:21 242:8

243:4

heighth

179:13

helicopter

237:16

helix 179:13

help 27:1

97:12,13

134:16

138:18

206:15

221:20

235:14,16

helped 15:10

helpful 13:22

27:2 53:11

71:4 102:1

238:21

helps 155:21

her 7:8,11

78:12 132:13

216:11

here 4:5,6 6:2

7:10,12,20

10:5,16,16

16:14 23:16

34:6 43:22

44:16 46:19

49:21 56:11

56:18,22

60:19 68:5

70:9 71:6,19

73:22 78:14

80:10 85:7

93:14,18

96:13,18

98:2 101:7

103:16

104:12

105:19

106:17 108:4

111:15

112:11 113:9

116:14,15

117:5,9

119:2 121:6

121:20 122:4

124:15 125:3

126:2,9

130:19 132:6

134:7,10

135:20

137:19 141:1

141:22

145:22

148:21 158:3

158:22

163:13

166:19

168:13

172:19

173:21

174:19

176:19 177:6

177:11,13

178:3,16

183:8 188:22

190:15 192:8

193:10 200:6

204:9,22

206:15,16

212:7,18

213:16 218:1

219:15 220:8

220:9 228:15

233:13,19

234:7,12

241:3

here's 8:4

97:21

hey 38:20

Hi 135:13

high 18:4,5,5

38:15,18

72:8 82:3

96:16 115:16

127:20 145:5

195:8

higher 28:5

37:4 38:15

41:18 61:15

69:8 71:13

73:17 74:12

74:14 76:12

82:16 89:16

89:17 91:3,6

98:13 101:22

107:22 120:8

120:12 143:6

145:11 147:8

151:13,19

152:17 153:1

153:3 155:21

162:3,6,15

166:4 174:14

174:15 177:2

190:22 193:3

195:20

223:17,18

238:8

higher-capa...

226:6

higher-powe...

143:8

Hilbrand 7:10

historical 44:1

219:7

historically

30:4,5

hit 167:2

hitting 16:12

103:16

Hoffman 2:10

4:15,15 7:4

20:7 69:3

113:14

120:22 121:4

122:6,8

124:2,8,14

129:1 144:10

144:11,14,21

145:8 148:10

155:5,5

156:10 157:3

157:13,21

158:8 160:1

160:4 168:16

169:22 170:6

170:14,19

171:1,6,9,11

181:5 212:5

213:7,13

216:11

219:22 220:4

220:9,12,15

221:16 222:1

229:9 234:8

234:11

235:13 236:8

236:8 243:22

hold 170:9

228:16

home 54:5

210:10

honest 214:18

honestly 52:2

104:1

honesty 51:21

hook 47:14

hoopla 8:16

Hootman 2:11

4:18,18 8:11

10:4,7 15:19

15:19 17:6

17:11,20

18:4,22 20:4

21:17 22:4

22:19 23:20

25:5,17,21

26:6 27:3

28:10,17

30:9 33:11

33:21 34:3

35:18 38:2

39:3,6,11

40:1,12,18

40:21 47:13

47:16 48:10

48:16 50:16

54:17 55:9

56:7 57:16

59:2 61:2

63:18 64:16

65:3,12,19

66:10,16,21

67:1,18 68:7

68:21 71:17

72:15,18,22

73:7,11,13

73:19 74:6

75:17 77:6

77:14 125:12

125:16

132:15 141:2

145:4 151:15

156:18

165:21 166:2

167:11 168:6

173:18

187:13 193:9

193:22 195:3

196:10,21

197:5,19

205:10

206:22
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

207:19 210:6

210:10

215:13

216:10,13,19

229:22 232:2

235:8 236:11

237:1,8,11

237:17 238:1

238:4,7,14

238:17

239:12

240:18

241:17

242:12,15

243:6,12,16

243:19

hope 43:16

133:4,5

240:13

hopefully

30:17 63:3

95:5,6

119:10

134:22

135:22

177:19

horse 52:6

hot 79:2,16

hotspots

68:19 69:1

hour 14:12

110:5

hourly 110:13

hours 111:20

128:1

hoursepower

186:12,15

however 90:16

143:5

HRI 5:1 170:21

Huang 2:12

179:18 181:4

181:7,7,15

182:17

185:14

huge 15:12

56:10 111:7

111:20

112:13

hundred

197:16

Hunt 2:13 4:19

4:19 15:6,6

17:2,7

188:16 228:1

228:1,14,19

hurts 182:14

hypothesis

239:19

hypothesize

21:10

I

I'd 17:11 60:20

77:15 86:5

94:14 115:5

116:16

136:19 142:3

144:2 149:13

150:13 159:7

169:1

I'll 11:4 17:8

94:16 104:16

106:20

113:13 126:3

129:11

135:11,20

138:18 139:9

156:5,16

157:9,18

159:18

172:19 175:6

214:18

221:11 235:9

IDC 42:5 86:18

idea 23:18

44:4 61:17

99:20 112:20

113:8 114:13

131:22

156:18

ideal 158:12

identified

172:15

IEER 173:9

174:13,16

188:8 189:8

189:8,11,14

190:17

191:13

192:12,17

202:14,20

203:6 205:18

206:13 211:8

213:16,18

214:1 223:12

233:7

IEER-rated

228:9

IEERs 223:5

IER 90:7,21

ignoring

108:11 229:6

imagine

168:21

imaging 49:20

imbedded

102:21 103:1

IMC 42:4

imitation

114:20

impact 15:13

59:18 82:17

103:7 111:7

126:14 147:5

198:11

228:11,13

impacted

32:19

impactors

92:9,19

impacts

111:16,17

implement

198:10

implemented

12:20 13:6

146:5

implications

221:4

implied 32:10

important

31:18 32:2

44:5 80:8

105:2 159:6

166:4 207:14

207:15

220:20

impression

199:3

improve 47:11

improved

166:11,12

improvement

123:3

improvements

105:17

119:17

in-depth

133:10

inaudible 6:12

7:1,2,12 8:8

8:9 9:22

10:13 11:2,6

11:8,10,12

11:15,16,20

12:6,12

13:12 14:1,7

14:8,8 15:5

16:21 17:5

17:10 19:13

20:2 21:2,7

23:22 24:6

25:12 26:4

26:17 27:22

28:9 29:5

30:14,19

31:3,8,10,12

31:15,20

32:2,19 33:1

33:9 35:1,13

37:22 38:6

39:18 40:16

42:15,17,22

43:5,9,14,19

44:1,7,8,19

45:8,10,16

46:20 48:4,6

48:9 49:2,8,8

49:22 50:12

50:21 51:3

52:15 53:2

53:13,15

54:6 55:17

55:21 56:1

56:11,17,21

59:8 60:6,12

60:14,22

61:4,7 63:2

64:20 65:7

66:7 67:10

67:12,21

68:6,13,19

73:18 74:1

74:21 77:21

77:22 79:11

80:3,21 81:2

81:3,6,8,22

82:7,9,16,19

82:22 83:7

86:9,11,13

86:15,15,16

86:17,19,20

87:14,16,21

88:5 89:3,20

90:11 91:2,5

91:18 92:14

93:6 94:17

95:12,17

96:3,20
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

97:15,21

98:14,15,16

98:18 99:6,8

100:2,11,21

100:22 102:7

102:11,16

104:7,8,21

105:12 106:3

106:9,17

107:8 108:5

108:11,13,18

109:2,21,21

111:19

112:13,18

113:1 116:4

116:13

118:13

119:14,19

121:4,6

122:20

123:10,12

124:2 126:19

126:21

127:19

129:10,10

131:18,19

132:6 133:1

137:5,6

140:18

143:19 145:3

145:13 146:6

146:19,21

147:6,9,20

148:13

154:11,16

155:1 156:3

159:8 164:15

165:18,19

167:19 168:5

169:9,11,18

173:7,8,8,10

173:18 175:3

175:19,22

176:17,22

177:3,5,10

177:14,22

178:7,9,11

178:21

179:19,21

180:11,12,17

180:20 181:4

181:8,9,18

181:19 182:3

182:4 183:15

183:20

184:22 185:2

185:8,17

187:1,2,20

188:11,15

189:3,7,10

189:14,19

190:5,14,16

190:21 191:3

191:5,16

194:21 195:1

195:2,6

199:1,21

200:2,8

201:3,18

202:11,18,21

203:6,11,18

204:6,15,18

205:2,8,16

206:7,9,19

207:22 208:1

208:5,19,20

209:1 211:9

211:18,20

212:6,10,19

213:20

214:19,20

217:15,19,21

218:6,12,18

219:3 220:1

220:2,6,10

220:13 221:3

221:9,12,14

221:21 224:9

224:20 225:8

225:13

226:22 227:1

227:13,19

229:1 230:4

230:9,13

231:9 232:7

232:19 234:3

234:13

235:11,19

236:1 238:3

238:9,19

239:8,21

240:6,7,16

241:6,17,18

241:19 242:6

243:1,15

incapable

168:20

incentive

166:20

incentives

167:4

inch 185:8

inches 151:7

151:12 152:9

156:4

incident 26:18

inclined 202:8

include 9:15

12:11 238:3

included 7:8

137:10

includes 92:19

105:15

232:20

including

12:13,17

123:4 140:15

162:4 173:21

incorrectly

214:21

increase 11:10

24:11 47:1

49:2 51:11

57:22 61:17

62:19 67:8

67:11 94:3

128:3 192:17

201:16 224:2

236:5

increased

85:13 89:6

increases 63:8

68:8 82:18

98:6 191:2

increasing

51:10 85:11

incremental

61:16 222:13

222:22 243:2

increments

150:16

independent

44:22

independently

50:1

indicate 99:14

indicated

83:17

indicates 85:8

99:10 101:14

indicating

201:18

indication

84:2 114:14

indications

136:6

indifferent

14:17

individual

173:4

individually

223:1

indoor 33:3

34:3 39:19

39:20 41:5

46:15 53:1

53:15,18

82:4 177:9

180:19,20

185:20 186:3

indoors 31:21

33:13 40:4

inducer 12:13

induction

186:7,8

industrial

226:7 241:21

industry 90:22

169:1 170:1

170:9 223:20

inevitable 76:7

informal 23:1

information

17:4,6 31:14

31:16 35:20

84:20 97:4

112:10 119:4

128:21 129:9

131:8,12

137:5,7

138:8,16,18

138:20 152:9

152:11

155:13

156:12

157:11,19

173:1 177:1

177:7,9

178:10

179:20

180:17

188:13

215:15 225:5

225:17

informed

173:2

informing

172:19

Ingersoll 5:21

inherent 76:16
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

initial 9:3

129:15

195:11 199:3

injecting 60:21

inlet 29:8

150:9 151:8

163:18

inlet/outlet

150:5

input 17:3

167:19

168:13 174:8

inquired

146:22

inside 40:13

49:22 54:15

79:3,16

118:3

install 31:13

installation

28:21 29:4

31:8,9,10,11

31:19 32:6,7

32:20 58:3,4

installations

13:8 33:3

137:1

installed

217:16

installing

26:21

instance

169:17,18

177:3 213:21

instances

74:13 166:22

instead 24:19

30:1 99:1

107:9 110:22

118:4 124:2

240:3

insulation

26:17 105:13

insurance

137:5

integrated

52:18 53:2

intend 137:1

intent 174:1

interested

149:13

180:10

245:11

Interesting

199:10

interface

226:21 227:2

230:19,19

intermittent

78:6,8

intermixed

112:2

intermixing

111:15

internal

179:12,14

180:11

181:15

internally

77:19

International

5:5

interpellating

223:9

interpolation

189:9

interpretatio...

221:1

interview

63:22

interviews

127:18

into 13:1 20:21

27:11 29:13

41:15 42:3

52:18 53:2

58:10,10

69:8,12 71:8

83:8 99:8,11

99:11 100:17

104:18,20

114:17 134:4

135:16,18

137:20

140:15

145:20

153:13

172:12,22

173:6 176:19

177:12 185:3

187:17,21

189:18 206:1

211:1 217:21

222:3 226:1

226:8 227:5

236:21 237:2

238:7

introduce

20:14 135:20

introduced

136:4

introduces

146:2

introducing

61:19

invest 104:18

investigate

155:18

investigating

198:6

investigation

193:18

195:11

investment

46:20 47:11

involve 132:4

involved 42:1

128:15

156:14 161:8

IOU 4:20

iPad 58:20

isn't 46:16

54:9 137:9

152:15 194:8

231:22 242:1

isolate 105:18

127:22

issue 7:14

13:9,14 15:9

15:12,14

19:18,18

20:5,12,22

20:22 21:1,4

21:6 22:14

22:16 26:14

28:4 42:11

42:20 46:15

46:16,17

59:12 63:1,1

63:21 69:7

70:18 75:12

81:21 83:6

86:1,5 93:18

99:5 104:2

106:16,21

108:18

110:10 125:6

125:8,22

126:12 128:1

131:15 136:1

136:10

137:14 143:6

144:13,14

145:18 147:4

152:12,19

161:1 167:20

194:7 241:3

243:9

issues 11:5

46:19 56:18

64:9 66:17

69:2 71:8

73:10 76:12

104:6 128:20

129:13 146:3

146:7 163:14

175:5 204:18

226:1

it'd 137:22

items 54:15

Ivanovich

160:12

J

jack 50:21

JACKOBS

78:18

Jakobs 78:12

78:14

James 2:3

219:18

221:22 239:2

Jeff 61:6

Jill 2:11 4:18

8:21 15:19

25:5 28:22

30:8 33:14

40:21 57:17

65:4 132:10

151:16

155:14

156:17,18

166:9 235:14

236:9 237:15

242:7

Jill's 60:21

Jim 201:18

Joaquin 17:20

18:1

John 2:4 5:12

10:15 19:10

20:11 22:7

23:17 33:5

35:6,12

49:18 51:8

64:11 73:15

93:11 101:1

103:14

104:17 106:8

119:15
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

137:14

join 19:17

joke 125:13

Jonathan 21:2

joule 16:19

17:22

judgment

169:8

jump 49:17

61:15 68:10

69:1 194:20

195:2,17

197:17,18

199:7,12

243:4

jumped 217:21

jumps 192:21

195:5

June 7:10

206:10

justifications

122:2

justify 97:11

K

Karen 2:16 6:2

36:2 63:20

108:19

168:22 170:3

170:14

Katie 2:6 5:19

105:4 109:15

111:14 112:5

113:2,15

116:4 123:4

126:3 127:13

127:15 131:1

Katie's 130:18

keep 60:3

67:13 72:20

87:4 94:20

94:21 100:11

103:15 104:2

104:3 106:8

106:10

108:11,15

112:20

121:20

123:14 185:1

203:14

211:10

221:10

keeps 28:8

key 12:7,20

31:2 46:19

47:20 191:12

199:2

kick 8:3

kicks 104:10

kid 132:17

kidding 243:18

kind 12:20

13:11 16:8

16:19,21,22

17:8 18:9

27:5 36:12

47:3 54:10

55:17 75:19

76:4 78:2,6

87:14 90:15

94:4 97:5

98:20 102:1

102:17

111:15

115:13 121:8

121:16

127:22

128:20 131:7

131:14 138:5

146:21

157:10 175:1

182:8 183:2

183:9 184:1

194:2,9,10

194:15

198:19 199:1

201:17 202:3

208:8,12,13

211:3,8

212:6 217:21

218:8

kinds 138:16

KM 155:22

knew 101:12

know 6:8 7:19

8:6,20 15:18

16:19,22

17:11 23:13

23:21 24:3

29:1 33:12

34:12 35:20

35:21 53:14

54:5 56:20

57:7 58:8

62:5,14,19

65:21,21

66:3 68:5,22

70:5,8,20,22

71:12,14

72:2,7 73:22

74:10 75:13

77:3,7,14

79:5,22

80:12,14

81:4,8,16

83:3 84:5

87:5,12,15

87:19 88:6

88:12,13,14

88:18,18

89:20 90:2,6

91:5,7,14

92:1 93:6,16

94:5,7,16,20

95:2,10,20

96:19 97:3

98:17,18,19

99:4,6,14

100:18 101:8

101:9,15,19

102:1,2

103:6,6,10

103:15 104:1

104:13,20

105:5 107:6

107:19 108:4

108:12

109:12 110:9

110:17,21

111:10 112:7

112:20 113:2

113:7,11,20

114:5,12

115:2,5,10

115:12,20,21

116:1,2,16

117:4,8,10

117:18,21

118:5,5,15

119:1,10,16

122:2,10,15

126:2,6

127:1 128:1

128:17

131:12

134:10 136:2

136:4,7,9

137:5,19

138:2,2,6

139:6 140:17

142:5 143:7

144:17

145:10 146:8

148:17

150:10

153:11,14

155:10,11

158:20 164:7

164:13,18

167:18,22

168:11

169:13,16

173:14

175:18

176:18

178:15

179:16

180:17,19

196:18,21

198:18,20

201:13

210:13,14

213:19

214:19

215:11,14

219:11 222:3

229:13

243:19

knowing 28:14

knows 7:9,11

172:21

242:10

Kylie 245:3,17

L

lab 22:5

109:16

labor 50:19

lacking 165:4

land 16:18

large 91:22

110:1 165:17

171:18 192:1

192:1 199:8

201:11

207:13

208:11,11

241:15

larger 14:14

14:16 15:2

18:9 56:18

59:21 95:3

137:1 162:5

163:16 194:4

200:22

207:18 226:4

last 6:20 7:21

8:2,7 14:10

15:1 19:16

21:9 32:8
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

34:17 54:4

80:16 81:11

82:13,22

83:8,16,21

84:15 85:17

91:20 92:3

101:21

113:12

129:21 134:8

146:3 149:19

150:22

151:14 161:2

169:5,7,20

170:14

171:14

176:16

188:10

204:14

late 80:7

later 82:17

105:4 127:4

167:18 226:9

latest 35:19,21

36:3 232:9

Laughter

21:16 30:12

78:17 100:6

100:9 103:22

116:8 125:11

130:20,22

132:10,12

149:10

153:16

164:16

167:13,15

219:12

launch 135:16

Lawrence

109:16

layering 54:20

LBNL 5:13,18

5:19

LCC 30:22

LDL 161:12,14

LDNL 101:2

leads 136:22

lean 155:20

least 16:16

19:14 24:7

50:16 66:11

84:4 85:7,9

85:21 112:21

116:2 119:12

120:13

143:13

157:22

165:12 172:5

210:22 216:1

219:16 221:1

239:6

leaves 28:12

leaving 43:1

left 4:17 125:6

170:14

legal 134:9

220:6,19

length 67:16

68:7,11

Lennox 5:4

20:17 28:19

40:8 44:13

45:5 50:10

68:2 75:15

less 25:20

27:14 28:8

36:21 42:8

57:11 60:17

82:1 108:5

139:11,22

143:9 147:18

148:1,20

163:17 179:5

184:15

206:17

207:13

lesser 148:19

level 26:2 31:5

32:22 42:8

43:6 49:12

61:15 65:10

89:17 92:15

147:8 162:6

174:10,12,16

198:17,18

213:10,17

217:17

223:13,15

225:15

226:14

228:10

231:15,17

232:17,18

233:7,18

levels 11:16

31:1 45:20

46:1 60:5

98:14 153:3

161:22 162:3

162:15 167:2

167:21,22

168:15,20

170:22 171:3

171:16 174:3

174:14

176:20 177:2

189:16 191:1

195:13

199:20 212:3

212:13 223:5

223:7,16,18

228:4 231:9

232:11,12

liability 58:7

206:1

lies 120:14

194:10

lieu 68:10

life 51:16

54:21 167:12

lift 50:21 55:4

55:8,12,13

light 242:8

243:4

like 4:7 12:22

17:11 24:9

24:13,17

25:1 43:19

45:18 46:17

47:20 48:5

49:9 54:3,3,5

54:10 56:4

58:1,19

60:20 65:2,9

66:10 67:18

78:2 87:6

89:7,15

94:14 95:1,8

95:12,13

97:20 99:7

100:3 104:21

105:12 106:3

111:1 112:12

114:18 115:4

116:16 118:6

120:13,18

126:2 129:3

129:16

130:13

133:10

136:19 141:4

144:2 145:1

150:13

152:19

154:10 155:2

159:7 169:1

170:4 173:9

174:17

177:14 182:9

184:7,16,17

186:1 187:1

193:14,22

195:3,16,19

195:22 196:6

198:16 199:2

199:14,18

201:12 206:8

206:19

207:13

208:10,13,15

210:2,17

211:1,15

217:17

218:14 221:3

238:11

240:15

242:14

likely 68:7,9

69:21 132:4

179:5 184:15

limit 28:7

limited 14:6

46:6 216:8

limits 193:19

line 67:8 93:22

171:16

190:15 193:1

193:1,15

197:8 217:4

232:10 233:8

linear 49:10

118:20,22

linearly 223:8

243:11,12

list 7:6 87:3,4

168:14

listed 217:22

literally 21:17

68:9

literature

19:22 66:6

178:10 180:1

205:13 216:7

225:6

little 7:22 9:3

14:19 25:14

33:2 42:15

42:16,16

43:10 45:11

48:20 49:16

53:7 61:9,17
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

64:8 75:1

85:16 87:20

90:18 96:3

112:21 117:5

132:8 137:18

151:20 165:7

196:1 200:5

202:20

203:16 207:7

207:8 212:7

222:1 228:12

242:11

lived 100:3

lives 207:21

load 60:11

81:13,14,16

81:19,22

84:1,4,6 87:7

87:9 88:22

91:1,16

92:11 94:8

97:19 110:2

110:3,10,21

111:1,6,12

111:19 112:6

112:9,17

113:3,22,22

114:1,8

117:18

122:14 128:1

131:21 132:1

204:2,2

242:18

loading 189:7

189:13

loads 83:1,6

87:6,13 90:1

90:3,5 92:1,7

92:8 103:3,5

109:22

110:13 111:9

112:14

114:18,19

116:5 122:16

128:13

local 9:6

locality 32:9

location 31:19

long 2:12 19:4

36:7 54:4

55:6 68:12

73:2 75:10

75:13,18

76:3 80:9

139:16 141:8

154:13 170:2

179:16 181:7

185:13,14

long-burn 78:1

longer 62:9,13

62:15 63:7

66:14 71:21

139:4

longstanding

220:22

longterm 57:4

look 18:17

42:8 51:22

52:3,7 56:21

57:2,3 59:8

62:20,21

66:5 67:14

81:17 82:21

85:14 87:5

87:10 88:3

88:21 90:1

91:1 94:16

94:22 98:1

101:19

106:21 109:5

109:20

113:10,11

115:17

119:12

120:16

145:20

146:20 153:4

167:7 172:11

174:3,10

177:14 188:1

192:3 198:9

198:15 199:1

199:7 202:13

203:6 204:12

204:16,22

205:3,4

217:11

226:12 235:9

236:12,13

242:22

looked 13:17

14:10 19:6

35:2,4 63:2

86:21 88:7,9

106:4,18

112:17

146:16

187:21 188:6

202:2 207:7

228:5 236:19

looking 12:17

19:22 21:7,7

30:21 36:12

46:2 47:18

47:19 57:14

83:17 84:4

84:14,16,22

85:7 93:21

96:18 110:17

112:9 115:21

120:1 127:21

131:21

139:18

158:11 176:3

184:12,18

187:18 191:8

192:18

194:15

198:18 199:4

203:8 234:18

240:4

looks 32:14

49:9 133:10

182:8 198:16

211:1

loom 72:8

Lord 2:14

10:16,21

42:3 60:6

86:7,12 88:9

89:5,19

90:20 94:13

94:13 95:15

95:18 97:5,9

97:18 98:9

98:15 99:22

100:10,16

104:16

105:10 106:7

106:20 108:8

108:14

113:10

119:15

120:15,20

121:21 122:7

122:9 124:1

124:4 126:5

126:15 127:1

127:5,8

129:5 130:21

131:16

136:11 143:9

143:12,16

154:11,16,22

155:4 165:6

loss 140:15

148:22 149:1

lot 11:21 12:8

13:20 27:16

35:8 36:11

36:11,20

49:13 55:3

61:7,11 70:5

71:21 72:5

81:7 87:15

89:9 91:10

105:16 107:9

107:14,16

108:9 111:18

112:9,17

115:1 116:5

119:16

121:18 124:6

143:17 151:1

154:12

158:20 166:5

166:6,19

175:15

177:11 182:9

188:13 201:4

203:4,16

208:6 210:2

210:8 211:4

212:10 214:9

215:4 218:7

221:4

lots 61:13

louder 200:5

222:1

Louis 2:21 5:3

9:9 18:8,15

25:6 53:21

61:5 107:5

113:16 117:8

126:1 129:1

129:2 130:2

150:20

192:13

202:22

love 132:15

low 16:15 31:5

38:14 81:13

81:13,22

82:4,8 87:4

87:13,13,15

87:16 88:15

88:17,22

90:1,3,5 91:1

91:4,16 92:1

94:15 95:11
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

103:5 107:1

107:1,21

109:22 110:9

111:19,20

112:7,7,14

112:18

114:18,18

115:15,19

116:6 127:19

128:2,13

139:11,22

151:21 152:9

159:1,3

195:4 196:11

204:2 213:1

low-end 27:5

low-load 90:4

111:17

low-speed

98:17

Lowe's 210:10

lower 16:10,13

24:20 26:2

28:4,6,7 29:8

29:12 36:21

37:4,5 60:13

147:17,22

152:20 154:9

189:5 199:19

201:21 204:5

233:22

lower-capac...

226:4

lumped 241:22

lunch 124:10

124:21 125:5

125:7,9

220:11,14,16

LV&L 202:10

M

machines 90:4

90:5

made 25:13

27:15 59:5

61:10 78:20

79:22 110:21

131:9 171:20

190:17

213:15 231:4

magnitude

136:20

magnitudes

159:4

main 236:7

maintain 12:9

179:3

maintained

87:22 105:14

maintenance

42:16

major 225:3

230:11

majority 44:18

207:4

make-up 76:15

makes 20:1

33:21 37:19

90:3 91:1

102:8,9

112:1 151:1

making 12:2

68:12 81:3

85:6 104:19

174:6 196:8

206:1

MALE6:4,12

6:14 9:11,15

9:21,22 10:1

10:6,19 11:2

17:16 18:2,6

18:20 19:1,3

19:13,15,21

20:6 21:2,14

21:20 22:6

22:11,21

23:5,7,9,10

23:16,21

24:2 34:1,5

34:15 35:10

35:12,14,16

36:4 37:9,16

39:12,22

40:5,15,17

41:7 42:1,6

42:19 43:18

46:9 47:14

49:4,11 50:3

52:21 63:10

63:14 67:9

74:16,20

76:14 77:1,5

77:9,15

100:15 103:8

104:8 106:14

108:13

116:17 130:6

132:8,13

133:1,8,21

135:11 138:9

138:21 140:5

140:9,19

142:7,11

143:14,20,22

144:6 149:5

149:7 156:22

157:7 158:2

159:12 160:3

160:13

161:11,15

164:12,15

165:12

175:11,13,22

179:22 180:2

180:14,22

181:18 182:3

182:5,14

183:4,12

184:5,15

185:1,20

186:11,18

187:3,6,10

197:7,14,17

197:21 198:1

198:3,6

199:17 201:2

201:8,10,12

201:15,17

203:14 204:4

204:12 205:2

205:8,11,14

205:19

206:14,18

207:11,16,20

208:18 209:2

209:13,19,22

210:7,19

211:3,8,21

212:8,17

213:3 214:18

215:3,8,11

215:14,18,20

215:22 216:4

217:1,7

218:7,17,20

218:22 219:1

219:3,10

220:3,8

228:11,17

229:15,20

232:3 234:17

234:22 235:2

238:5,12,15

238:19,21

239:22 240:4

240:15 242:1

242:7,14,17

243:3,7,17

243:21

management

12:14 17:9

17:10

managing

151:10

mandatory

138:1

manipulate

119:5

manuals

160:16

manufactuers

26:13 36:13

53:9 191:12

233:14

manufacture

38:12 192:9

manufactured

53:6

manufacturer

14:8 37:20

37:22 46:10

68:3 74:3,3

140:14 161:5

161:6 162:4

165:2 189:22

191:11

192:10

194:21 200:7

214:6,11

223:1,4

224:3,14,15

224:18

225:22

233:17 239:7

manufacture...

62:8 199:16

210:14

manufacture...

12:21 13:21

17:7 24:14

53:8 74:16

161:3 172:16

173:2,16

174:18

175:12

215:16

217:18 224:4

225:2,5

232:21

manufacturi...
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

71:14 142:15

201:8 222:11

222:22 224:6

many 41:14

62:14 67:6

71:7 139:5,5

205:12 209:3

242:19

243:11

map 29:4 99:9

mapping

36:14

margin 39:1

184:13

Mark 3:3

133:19

138:22 148:8

148:10,11,11

149:5,6,7,8

149:20

155:20

156:12 157:3

158:11 159:9

160:1 163:13

marked 58:18

market 18:12

19:6 23:2

24:22 25:2

25:19,20

33:19 36:10

43:5,8 47:3

48:7 54:15

57:5,10,11

64:18,21

70:15 163:7

167:4 178:13

200:7 206:16

207:11,17

208:15

222:14

224:10,18

225:3,9

Marshall 2:13

4:19 15:6

16:11 23:21

188:16 228:1

mass 238:10

240:22

match 37:8

92:7 196:15

196:15

matches 98:2

matching

194:14

material 12:6

12:22 79:17

79:18 80:1

176:16

materials

12:12,18

26:16 58:7

math 105:19

matter 9:17

21:11 34:8

50:2 196:16

max 67:20

111:1 194:12

maximum

168:12

may 1:7 20:12

23:21 24:6

26:19 35:7

42:10 46:9

47:5 68:4,16

68:16 86:17

103:12 108:2

128:18

151:19

152:17

153:18 160:6

161:3,7

163:4,4

166:21,22

174:16

195:13

197:17

207:20

208:19 209:4

210:4 212:5

218:18 220:4

221:18 226:3

226:5,21

227:13 228:9

235:13 236:6

242:10

245:12

maybe 24:3

28:6 33:17

38:8 51:6

64:8 72:4,6

74:12 93:17

95:21 96:22

97:22 102:13

104:16 105:8

119:15 126:3

127:6,18

128:7 129:16

134:11

138:11,11,19

140:17

142:19 146:4

147:15

155:15 171:1

188:17 192:4

195:21

207:14

208:16

210:12,13

214:10 217:5

221:13,19

223:17

231:22 234:6

235:10

242:20

243:10

McCabe 2:15

5:21,21

mean 18:3

21:12 24:21

25:18 27:6

27:18 36:15

43:17 45:7

46:6 67:2

68:8,9 70:19

71:6,18

80:14 86:8

87:8,9,14

90:1 91:10

92:16 93:13

94:2 95:15

97:5,14 98:5

100:10

102:13

103:11 104:2

109:11

112:19 116:6

116:15 117:9

117:10,12,13

120:2 121:6

122:13 138:7

140:21

144:16

145:12 154:1

155:16 158:5

159:18

165:14

166:17 167:1

175:18

182:18 184:6

185:9 193:6

195:8 198:21

199:7 200:21

206:3 214:5

218:17 219:4

224:17

229:18

means 24:18

25:15 27:9

60:1 101:15

185:16

meant 26:1

meantime 26:9

measure

110:18

measured

160:18

measureme...

156:1

measures

70:11 71:6

measuring

20:2 156:6

mechanical

56:17

medium

127:19 195:4

196:11

meet 60:4

81:15 217:12

meeting 1:5

4:4 6:20 8:1

8:5 14:12

25:3 80:8,16

81:1 83:3

86:5 103:12

128:9 129:4

129:21 133:7

134:9 146:3

150:22

157:15,22

158:7,8

160:6 161:2

171:14

174:11

221:10,18

235:11

239:10 244:3

meetings 7:21

10:4 187:17

218:2 221:2

222:4 226:10

meets 188:8

Meg 3:5 6:4

7:7,9 101:21

133:14

Megan 133:16

memory 72:13

mention

135:17 175:5

175:6
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

mentioned

62:11 156:13

191:7 222:3

222:15

223:21

message

219:5

metal 139:1

148:7,13

149:9,12,21

method

102:11,11

137:22

169:19 223:6

methods

206:5

Meyers 2:16

6:2 36:2

63:20 108:19

168:22 170:4

170:17

mic 132:13

143:15

Michael 2:15

2:20 5:21 6:5

133:14,17,21

micro-data

84:19

microchannel

193:5

microphone

132:7 135:11

180:6,7

middle 36:1

55:9,10

56:13 237:6

midpoint 27:7

27:8,15

might 8:16

14:20 16:9

29:18 35:15

37:2 38:7

56:9 62:20

68:10 85:2

98:10,12

101:17

160:11 166:3

166:4 173:4

173:15

191:19,21

192:5 197:18

198:2 202:8

206:14

208:17

212:11 234:6

235:14

238:18

mike 49:4

133:19,22

160:12

mild 75:16

million 14:15

51:1,1 52:7

mind 19:17

50:6 100:11

107:20

108:15 115:8

115:15,16

121:20

123:14 185:1

203:14

229:14

mine 72:18

minimize

38:12

minimum

22:12 38:17

77:7 110:21

111:12

minimums

77:6

minus 69:15

70:4,6,7,7

minute 170:7

minutes 169:2

170:5,11

mischaracte...

104:7

Mislak 2:17

5:1,1 134:19

135:5,8

140:13

170:21,21

missed 35:8

missing 196:9

208:15

mistaken

29:18

mitigate 26:15

Mitsubishi

4:21 22:15

63:6

mix 183:22

mode 52:16

80:2

model 13:6

21:22 23:6,7

23:9,10

49:13 88:1,3

88:8 92:15

97:20 98:16

102:5,21

103:1 110:4

119:19

139:17 206:9

206:12

207:22

209:11

211:14

212:15

213:20 215:9

215:18

216:15 219:4

219:7 222:11

222:20

224:12,21

225:10 228:7

233:16 239:5

modeled 81:5

82:15 175:16

189:15

226:18 236:5

239:15

modeling

10:18 14:21

119:3 202:5

205:15,17

209:6,10

211:6,21

212:2 213:10

216:16 222:9

222:9 230:16

231:13

models 13:5

13:16 23:19

25:15 26:8

33:15,20

34:4 36:9,11

37:8,14 67:6

94:17 97:3

97:15 98:1,3

119:17,18

126:7,18

171:16,17

172:1,1,5,16

173:2,19

174:12

176:10

188:12

202:10 219:6

222:5 223:8

223:14,17

225:20 227:6

229:18 230:7

233:15,16

modern 139:4

modest 235:20

modifications

190:5

modulating

204:14

modulation

204:10

moisture

227:19

moment 23:2

Monday 75:8

78:2

money 104:17

166:16

monitor

227:18

months 19:4

more 11:9

12:17,21

15:11 17:4,6

18:11 19:16

19:17 20:10

22:14,16,19

25:14,19

27:16 28:4,5

32:1 35:14

35:15,16

42:1 49:13

50:13,14

54:2 59:13

59:15,18,20

60:2 61:20

62:19 63:16

63:18 67:15

72:3 75:20

85:5,15,16

85:17 86:18

86:22 89:9

89:14,18

90:15 96:11

97:16,18

98:6 99:11

104:20 105:6

108:6 111:18

119:21

120:18

127:17

129:22 131:9

131:13

133:10 139:2

150:5,6

152:10 153:5

153:6 154:10

156:12 158:7
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

163:15 164:2

172:13

174:15

179:22 185:3

186:19 194:4

197:4,5

198:22

200:22 201:4

201:13,21

204:17,19

207:8 208:17

211:1,16,16

211:20

214:14

218:18

222:10,13

226:3,5

227:7,10,12

227:17 228:5

229:3,4

230:9 231:16

236:15 238:8

238:8 239:16

241:20

242:11

morning 4:2

11:1,3 75:7,8

77:16 78:2,3

88:13 134:15

most 29:6

31:14 50:16

50:17 53:4

60:11 77:7

93:21 99:16

99:18 105:2

134:19 143:9

143:11,12

168:9 174:2

174:7,8

202:5 208:14

242:17

mostly 26:7

30:11 75:11

84:11 101:4

173:20

mother 132:15

motor 143:7,8

166:12 183:1

186:1

motors 183:13

186:2,7,8,10

mouth 180:6

move 25:2

31:6 34:8

80:5 134:4,5

135:11 136:8

143:14

176:12

178:15 213:7

219:17

221:11

moved 48:12

Movement

160:9

moving 146:1

167:20

171:12 176:2

176:5 200:10

202:1 213:14

237:18

much 8:2

31:12,13

32:3 41:18

42:8 48:3

51:6 56:5

61:20 75:22

79:22 80:13

81:19 87:9

88:22 101:3

107:7,22

110:12 112:6

113:8,18

114:19 128:3

128:15,17

130:16

131:13

132:17

134:21

165:15

174:15

175:14

176:18 192:4

192:7 198:12

204:5 207:21

208:2 209:17

211:12 221:7

242:10

multiple

189:16

200:17

multiply

121:17

must 25:15

26:3 137:14

231:4

N

N 2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1,1,1

name 9:8

132:11

149:19

named 168:10

nanograms

16:18 17:21

nation 18:4

national 43:4

44:6 45:9,10

48:19 49:3

84:5

nationally 48:7

naturally

193:15

Navigant 5:15

5:17,20 11:4

18:11 82:14

138:3,14

156:13

157:18 158:6

160:2,3,4

181:8 185:15

198:2

near 70:14

132:7

necessarily

29:1 46:14

46:16 48:12

90:11,17

111:7 119:6

123:10

152:15

177:12 193:6

203:7 232:6

necessary

88:4 131:13

NEEA 5:3

192:13

202:22

need 7:14,20

11:20 13:5

14:2 17:4

26:15 50:9

51:17 52:5

61:18 63:9

70:10 81:9

105:15,18

110:2 113:19

116:7 117:4

122:19 129:6

129:15

144:19

145:22 153:7

154:22

163:11,19

170:1,3

180:5 183:16

196:5,6

197:4,5

211:1 213:13

215:22

needed 178:1

178:18

226:14

needs 15:16

15:22 16:4

115:11 128:5

135:19 136:8

191:9

negative 60:13

negotiate

108:22 117:1

120:2 141:21

negotiating

120:11

145:17

negotiation

108:22 115:3

negotiations

141:6

nervous 61:3

88:14 116:3

net 31:4 52:9

93:14 103:16

network

155:22

158:21,22

neutralizer

42:14

neutralizers

41:10

neutralizing

41:20

never 42:3

88:6 229:14

new 16:9 30:7

54:13 65:2

85:19 96:4

96:16 103:6

106:5,11,19

122:13 163:3

164:2 168:8

222:8

newer 163:17

next 7:18

11:11 13:13

92:5 99:4

127:12 128:9

129:3,5

133:2,5,7

144:8 147:4
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

157:13,14,22

158:6,8

160:5 167:20

176:15

178:15

190:11,15

191:7 202:21

221:9 235:11

nice 91:7

Nick 2:17 5:1

134:14

137:17

170:21 183:7

night 34:9 78:3

169:5,7

nine 33:7,12

33:17,20

176:15

nitty-gritty

189:18

nobody 106:9

196:14

nodding 23:4

nomenclature

188:19

nominal

182:18,19

240:21

non-conserv...

166:19

non-econom...

127:21 131:6

non-econom...

110:10

non-weather...

79:9

nondisclosure

175:8

none 22:8

35:10 237:1

Nope 232:2

NOPR 6:18,19

6:21 11:22

13:14 19:3

35:5 82:6

136:5 168:10

222:4,7

nor 33:13

245:8,10

normally 65:1

148:16 179:7

north 58:14,14

north-south

74:18

Northwest

138:4

note 31:18

49:16 52:13

nothing 18:22

25:21 57:15

94:15 107:18

137:11 169:7

notice 6:17

18:9 181:18

212:17

noticed 73:9

136:11

noting 85:17

NOx 15:9,13

16:2

nuances 24:9

number 39:19

44:4 46:6

85:9,18

96:20 101:22

104:11,14

107:21,22,22

108:3,21

109:12 111:3

111:20

112:13 115:7

118:9 120:12

120:14

151:13,19

152:9 153:7

155:18,21

156:13 159:6

164:7,14,15

164:18 173:7

180:18 181:9

181:11

213:19

220:21

224:12,22

234:1 236:21

242:1

numbers 6:6

57:15 73:22

74:11 76:2

76:18 77:3,5

77:10 83:17

84:17 85:16

95:11 97:16

102:20

107:12 109:3

109:7,10,11

115:8 119:6

119:8,11

120:22 123:5

127:2 152:6

153:13

158:18,22

159:3 168:1

169:14

216:15

O

O 4:1 125:1,1,1

objection

169:4

objections

133:12

objective

111:10

observation

56:19 195:15

200:5

observe 13:15

observed

13:16 232:18

observing

57:13

obviously 44:6

46:22 57:19

75:21 108:20

117:6 198:7

205:22

220:21 223:4

224:17

occur 81:17

82:1 156:4

occurrence

81:13

occurring

112:6 116:5

occurs 52:14

OEMs 224:10

off 8:3 47:14

50:19 55:4,8

55:11 58:19

80:18 87:4

113:3 118:16

123:5,10

126:20

137:15 141:1

170:11

177:15

196:21

206:19

207:10 234:8

235:8

Off-the-record

171:7 180:8

183:6 186:5

199:22

offer 13:7

139:16 140:3

184:20

offered 66:6

office 184:2

220:1

offline 234:7

234:11

often 32:6

oh 9:9 73:19

100:7 125:16

127:3 130:8

146:17

154:22

156:20

162:19

186:11 204:7

oil 30:20 33:4

43:14 44:2

44:11 45:20

45:22 46:12

46:15 47:11

48:7,15 49:9

52:11,15,22

52:22 53:6

53:16,18,19

54:6

Oil/fire 11:17

okay 4:2 36:14

70:5,21 71:2

73:14 76:13

78:11 80:5

86:12 116:19

119:20

124:14 125:2

125:4 126:22

127:5,15

129:6,7

130:8 133:10

133:16 134:1

134:3 135:9

138:21

144:21

145:15 146:1

150:13

153:12 158:8

160:4,7

161:13

164:11 167:9

169:21 173:6

173:17

193:18

198:15

209:13

212:16
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

221:20

229:22

240:17

old 19:22 26:1

43:18 88:22

195:8

older 122:3

163:16

oldest 99:19

on-off 72:1

on/off 227:3

once 28:22

77:21 98:19

100:1 128:14

134:21

175:14

183:19

188:18

204:19

206:18 217:1

227:5

one's 14:19

38:20 46:4

one-by-one

173:16

ones 33:11

88:10 93:7

117:15

178:20

195:21 209:5

216:15,17

218:13 226:5

online 4:11

148:8

onto 155:4

167:20

open 9:6 55:13

65:14 77:2,4

79:3 86:6

137:19

opening 150:8

openings

165:22 166:2

operating

105:14 148:5

177:4 214:17

215:1 226:20

operation

38:13 80:3

operations

123:3

opinion

150:14

opinions

149:14

opportunity

56:22 133:7

144:3 220:18

opposed 48:9

52:16 63:17

64:9 81:5

82:3

opposite

52:17 56:1

57:13 83:18

option 13:4,4

73:5,8 99:6

141:7 202:9

212:18 234:1

options 11:8

194:16,17

order 59:20

60:3 64:8

69:1 107:11

107:17 142:7

162:5 179:3

195:12

198:11 207:4

222:10

ordering 46:17

181:16

original 93:9

106:13,21

164:1 179:7

originally

66:14 136:5

otherwise

61:18 198:20

ought 214:10

217:6 219:6

ourselves 26:7

46:21 166:5

210:20

out-stream

198:10

outcome 57:6

outdoor 32:20

34:5 53:15

53:19 75:22

75:22 76:12

76:17,20,21

77:2,11

143:8 177:7

180:19 181:4

186:1,17

outdoor-heat

181:3

outdoors

31:20

outlet 150:10

150:16 151:9

163:18

output 110:3

outside 29:6

56:9 75:3

77:7,18,22

79:1,17

143:17

over 10:2

14:15 30:18

31:7 43:11

45:11,14

52:8 58:22

59:21,21

64:5 81:8

82:18,19

91:19 93:14

94:20 96:5

103:16 105:6

105:16

110:12

111:16

113:21 125:9

129:12 135:4

186:12

205:22 217:1

220:10,14

234:12

overall 13:18

67:12 99:1

111:5 189:13

overcome

58:4,11

152:4

overestimate

32:18

overriding

108:6

oversize 92:9

oversized 90:4

92:19 93:8

overview

226:13

own 22:10

54:5 162:4

216:19

P

P 2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1

p.m 8:21 244:4

Pacific 15:6

package

200:13,18,19

200:20

packaged

84:21 85:3,4

85:15,20

96:12 121:10

121:16,19

packs 18:2

39:21

page 188:10

202:21

pair 187:14

panels 50:20

55:11

Paper 30:18

paradigm

90:19

Pardon 49:20

parking 211:3

part 7:22 8:1

29:20 31:2,3

66:9 90:10

93:15 100:21

105:9 106:7

107:4,6

108:12

117:18

123:11

161:11 165:6

172:12

208:18 228:8

part-load 93:2

partial 189:5

participants

133:13,14

participate

40:1 41:12

47:21

participating

47:6,17

particular

13:16 43:6

85:1 88:1,5,7

128:16

169:14 182:1

193:8 194:21

200:16

particularly

66:19 84:20

90:14,21

parties 245:8

parties' 245:9

parts 54:14

55:22 56:5

69:19 84:6

pass 20:9

21:18 222:16
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

222:16

passing 26:8

93:14

past 53:5 85:1

226:10

path 56:20

232:11,11

233:2,2,3,4,6

237:20,21,21

239:6 240:20

240:21 241:1

paths 241:12

patterns 68:18

Paul 2:9 4:21

22:15 63:6

pay 200:21

payback 39:7

119:22 120:1

120:3

paying 108:7

PCS 186:2

penalty 39:17

pencil 8:8

pencils 7:21

people 4:11

17:3,10 47:5

54:12 61:3

73:6 77:17

107:10,16

108:6,9

123:17,21

131:14

138:14 141:7

141:7 172:19

174:21 182:5

183:12

216:22

221:10

228:18 238:5

238:12

per 14:12

16:18 17:22

20:19 48:8

52:7,9 97:7

97:10,19

102:16 176:8

181:20 185:8

201:19

percent 11:9,9

11:11 12:7

12:10 18:10

18:18 20:9

20:19 23:3,3

24:1,6,12

25:7,11,19

25:20 26:19

27:11 31:20

31:21 32:21

32:22,22

33:1,16

41:10 44:10

44:16 46:22

49:9,9 57:11

59:4,8 65:6

65:11,13

69:14 76:16

77:11,11,12

83:15,20

84:21,22

85:5,15,18

86:8,9,13,13

86:16,22

87:7 93:8

95:2,13,16

96:2,10,11

96:19 100:2

101:15,20

102:7,22

107:20 108:1

108:2,16

111:1 115:15

117:21 118:4

120:16,18,21

121:5 122:15

123:15,16,19

136:22,22

139:11 140:1

145:2,2

162:8,10,14

162:20 163:7

163:8 164:8

164:17 165:1

183:2,17

189:12,12,13

200:19,20,20

202:17 203:5

203:5,11,12

203:21 204:1

204:1,3,5

206:17

207:13,16

210:12,16

218:21

percentage

13:5 18:13

33:18 41:18

42:2 96:14

96:16,18

121:13,14,15

123:20

162:22 165:1

165:3 201:16

206:15

208:16,20

224:2 238:18

238:22

percentages

94:1 152:1

perception

139:10

performance

19:18 20:22

82:15 106:18

114:21

131:10 147:5

167:17

188:10,12

189:10

199:18

performing

19:19 174:22

perhaps 30:4

30:21 32:8

34:22 47:9

75:1 91:14

91:16 99:6

109:2 125:17

148:7 176:9

206:10

period 70:6

123:8

person 45:13

personally

109:22

perspective

20:12 30:10

34:11 41:3

194:16

Pete 2:5 5:11

PG&E 4:19

188:16 228:1

phonetic

18:17 121:2

photos 13:22

physical

216:17

222:12,21

physically

68:17 145:6

145:7

pick 118:7

198:21

picked 173:19

193:10

picking 113:2

207:6 217:4

picture 42:21

210:5

pictures 64:1

piece 50:7

105:21

107:17

180:16

pieces 56:5

pinion 106:2

pinpoint

169:11

place 30:21

126:18 141:7

places 107:15

plan 7:19 9:3

159:16

planned 133:3

plans 102:7

platform 241:8

platforms

241:5,13,20

player 225:3

playing 89:7

please 9:8

19:17 170:18

171:6 186:19

222:1

plot 198:19

plots 191:10

191:15 199:4

plug 153:13

plus 162:10,13

229:2

podiuma

10:14

point 19:2 36:8

38:20 48:17

49:19 50:5

51:15 54:17

57:7 58:21

60:20 64:2

66:19 67:3

68:6 77:15

81:10 89:10

94:4,7 95:21

105:3,11

116:2,3

126:8 128:4

128:11

139:21

153:17

160:20 172:3

191:17

194:14
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

199:13 206:8

208:4,7,17

214:7 219:17

225:16

232:20

233:13,14

pointed 7:13

pointing 87:17

points 29:15

91:17 107:15

120:11,13

189:3,7,13

205:18 211:9

policy 15:12

15:15 91:8

pollution 15:9

popular 139:2

139:5,7

portion 47:3

202:11

219:20

pose 239:4,4

position

150:10

positive 31:2

possible 12:13

102:3 178:2

221:15

possibly 12:12

16:9

post 92:13

131:18

post-process

103:4

post-proces...

103:2

pot 58:10

potential

136:6 191:9

218:1

potentially

6:22 7:1

12:17 13:7

101:19 137:6

184:14

188:14 193:5

potion 150:6

pounds 56:15

236:15 237:9

242:18

power 59:20

152:4 179:4

189:7 191:2

230:9

pre-ARSAC

218:2

pre-meetings

26:12

precious

182:12

precise 130:14

precision

119:2

preliminary

223:22

prepared

176:10

225:21

presence

110:7

present 12:2

52:8,9 79:20

105:4

presentation

83:4,8

135:18

187:22

presented

65:15 83:7

235:5

presenting

135:14

173:13

preserve

29:21

pressing

146:17,18

pressure

59:18 60:8

90:15 136:14

136:16 147:6

147:13,18,21

147:22

148:12,19

149:14,16

150:4 151:3

152:1,2,16

153:1,5,20

158:12,13

159:4,5,15

179:4 205:9

218:9

pressures

82:16 153:8

158:16

190:19

presumably

76:15 77:1

108:18

pretty 10:20

24:7 36:6

37:7 51:1,2,2

77:20 82:5

100:11 126:8

126:9 128:17

159:1,3,6

167:10 192:7

192:20

210:21 234:7

234:15

prevent 69:1

previous

174:11

187:17 222:4

previously

19:6 21:5

price 112:21

prices 15:4

primarily

14:11 89:19

184:12

234:17

primary 11:8

91:20 223:6

prior 22:22

34:22 80:22

99:14,15

235:6

priority 103:13

privately 175:6

175:12

probably

10:21 18:11

19:22 27:12

28:2 33:8

42:4,21

46:12,19

51:4 55:15

58:14 71:10

71:10 72:16

73:4,5 76:11

76:17 78:1,2

78:5 91:21

94:15 97:15

97:22 99:19

103:8 112:10

116:1 124:9

135:19

142:15

143:18

148:12

152:14,17

158:4 160:13

165:2,10

172:18 182:6

184:10

203:22

205:21

206:16,22

207:1,8,9

217:22

218:16 219:1

233:1 240:2

243:16

problem 22:8

28:4 36:9

46:11 82:11

88:2 90:10

106:7 107:6

152:22

174:19 203:1

209:22

problems

61:11,13

75:21 79:6

95:7 111:15

112:2

procedure

90:12,17

137:10

142:10

188:19 203:2

209:10 214:2

243:17

procedures

10:12 25:1

proceedings

245:5

process 10:11

19:5 44:17

131:18

processing

87:1 92:13

114:5 132:4

produce 40:9

128:14

producing

83:2

product 15:16

26:22 28:20

29:1,3 38:10

41:6 44:18

48:11 50:14

51:6,10,16

53:15 66:5

78:19 137:20

139:10,13

140:3,15

141:5,7

142:21 145:3
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

145:12

178:10

193:15 197:8

201:4,6

205:12 216:7

225:6 226:15

239:7,8

production

37:20,22

201:11 224:5

products 29:6

29:19 30:3

35:12 44:18

46:16,21

47:19 48:5

53:1,10

58:18 59:7

61:12 87:3

139:19

141:10 178:6

178:13

profile 88:15

173:7 179:14

188:7 189:1

214:6

profiles 87:5

88:15,17

94:16

program 67:22

134:4 151:2

179:8 183:16

183:16

programs

16:17 138:17

progress

58:17,22

221:12

project 5:9

138:7

promised

220:7

pronounced

149:19

properly 83:19

proposal

116:16

127:17

141:13

proposals

136:9

proposed 44:8

44:10 45:11

45:14,16

170:22 171:3

proposes

140:14

proposing

94:9 129:8

131:2,2,3,11

141:17

provide

112:10 121:8

133:6 137:6

151:5 161:16

215:17

232:16

provided 8:12

82:14 84:20

110:13

155:13,14

157:20 191:4

232:19

provides

226:13

providing

202:10

227:21

Provisions

146:5

pry 55:13

PSL5 56:22

public 4:10

14:12 15:12

21:11 27:18

publicly 175:6

pull 27:19

59:20 132:7

pulled 31:16

34:21

pulling 77:20

99:10,12

241:17,18

pure 207:7

purely 212:10

purpose 201:3

201:13

purposes

170:8

push 80:6

209:5 219:20

pushed 128:19

pushes 90:5

pushing 87:4

put 17:4 58:8

58:10 61:20

62:13 93:17

104:18

112:11 116:2

123:10

126:12

134:22

135:21 151:3

154:16 158:9

163:20

164:18

174:22

183:14 187:2

240:2,7,8,11

240:13,16,20

putting 20:10

62:15 87:15

240:3

Q

QAC 50:1

quads 45:12

45:12 99:2,2

quality 17:9,9

quantify

126:13

quantifying

125:21

quantity 128:5

quarter 124:12

question

17:13 24:16

26:10,17

39:18 43:13

43:17 47:8

51:14 52:2

52:14,14

53:12,20

76:15 88:6

92:3 101:3

103:4 126:6

131:16

132:19

136:21

142:18,18

143:16

144:10,18

145:10,13

147:10

160:22 161:8

161:14

166:18

172:11,22

178:4 184:5

202:9 204:8

211:6 214:15

215:7 216:13

219:22 233:1

236:9,14

239:3,18

questions 6:7

6:10 8:10

10:12 12:20

13:10 14:4

65:15,17

86:7 132:21

134:10

186:18

187:15

189:20 191:6

191:21 220:5

220:19,21

221:4 226:11

quick 4:8

10:20 11:6

11:13 17:13

55:21 67:14

131:16 133:1

144:10 160:9

170:4 219:22

236:9

quicker 119:22

quickly 99:7

99:20 104:14

quiet 132:10

132:16

quite 60:7

128:19 192:4

220:5 221:3

221:5

quote 12:5

139:3 150:2

164:2

R

R 2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1

rack 106:2

raise 74:14

166:17

raised 64:3

78:12 172:4

220:20

raising 104:6

111:22

Rally 45:10

Rand 5:22

random 118:3

118:7

range 14:15

27:5,7,9,15

27:15 38:13

43:14 51:15

51:18,19

52:1 74:11

109:20 151:7
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

151:12 153:3

202:5,12

223:5

ranged 181:20

ranges 111:12

131:5

rare 234:7

rate 21:21 22:1

26:18 90:13

91:6 101:20

102:4 103:1

106:6 114:10

115:13 118:3

118:9,14

120:8 121:5

182:5

rated 19:19

29:20 30:4,5

35:13 46:22

182:2

rates 101:9,13

104:12,13

147:17

rather 54:13

81:18 101:4

111:8 115:5

115:6 189:18

203:5

rating 19:16

19:18 20:4

20:12,21

22:3,13

190:17

ratings 24:15

24:17 25:3

28:3 101:5

182:1

ratio 182:15

rattling 123:5

re-analysis

115:9

re-clarify

140:16

re-heat 211:17

re-process

113:4 114:1

114:8

re-rated 21:18

35:9

re-rating 33:6

35:7

re-run 37:10

37:10 64:13

218:12

reach 155:21

156:7 194:12

reached 108:2

read 106:12

213:4

reading

192:14

readjusting

45:19

real 20:22 69:2

87:18 114:6

131:16 156:1

174:20 203:2

218:19 240:1

realistic

111:10 116:1

152:10

157:21 158:7

158:17 170:8

reality 107:21

117:4 118:19

realize 208:9

really 11:21

15:4 16:14

25:3 28:17

37:1 38:16

40:17,18

56:2 61:14

61:18,19,20

67:3,5,20

68:12 70:10

75:5 80:13

80:15 82:18

87:12,17

88:4 89:9

90:1,1,17,20

92:4 98:4

110:6 111:9

114:16 117:9

122:21

123:13

128:11 133:1

135:17

145:21

146:16

148:22,22

150:4 159:4

159:20

163:19 166:4

172:5 182:19

191:17

193:10,14,14

198:12

200:22 203:2

203:10 207:1

207:22 208:2

209:7 210:12

211:22 212:4

212:20 218:6

219:6 229:21

242:2

reason 55:20

58:2 79:8

87:2 90:20

94:21 145:16

181:21 202:2

217:5 223:10

reasonable

95:14 96:21

104:5 111:13

153:20

154:10

reasons 55:19

108:21

225:19

230:14

rebate 24:12

24:12

rebates 23:22

recalculated

65:7 161:16

recall 22:22

93:15 220:4

received 65:18

recent 33:6

93:21 99:11

99:17,18

recently 168:9

recess 124:21

170:13

recognize

212:14

recommend

67:4

recommend...

215:21

234:20

recommend...

37:17 175:4

record 4:16

21:12 64:2

80:18 129:18

149:18

170:12 234:9

245:6

recovery

218:10

red 232:14

redesign

24:20 25:16

28:8 52:10

redesigned

16:6 30:3

redesigning

26:4,7

reduce 72:7

84:6 89:22

98:7 99:1

reducing 84:4

reduction

122:15

refer 224:9

reference

52:13 134:15

references

106:12 180:3

referencing

106:10

refined 176:6

226:12

reflect 144:15

reflected

92:12

refresh 72:12

refresher 11:6

11:13

refrigerant

180:11

regard 74:1

regarding

218:3

regardless

28:21 36:4

102:12

136:14

154:20

230:15

regenerate

90:7

regiment 26:2

region 84:10

regional 84:7

regulations

25:13 61:20

rehashed

146:7

reheat 205:20

reinvention

106:1

rejuvenated

124:15

related 75:21

160:22 161:1

220:22

relates 26:11

relating
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

160:11

relative 98:4

148:12 159:4

182:20 224:2

245:7,9

Relative-wise

218:17

relatively

11:16 49:15

75:15 112:7

113:7 116:12

relevant 39:21

230:1

reliability 12:9

21:1 70:12

reliable 28:21

remains

145:11

remember

10:1 16:11

26:14 39:16

60:9 123:2

129:20 207:2

remind 235:18

reminder

92:17 222:3

remote 133:12

133:13

removal 32:2

65:8

remove 103:5

removed

111:6

removing

91:16

rename 167:22

renew 124:10

repeat 80:22

repeating

176:16

replace 50:11

50:12,15,18

54:7 56:3,5

163:16 165:5

166:5

replaced 49:20

51:17 54:12

165:2 195:8

replacement

54:14,14

55:22 161:7

163:8,10

replacements

147:8 164:22

165:1

replaces 55:21

replacing 54:8

161:20 162:4

163:10

report 34:8

106:11,22

170:15,18

220:18

reported 6:1

reporter 23:12

23:15 80:19

245:1,4

represent

160:16

188:12

191:22 224:4

226:3,5

representative

14:11,18

35:17 83:10

173:13,20

174:2,7,8,20

179:19,21

182:19 207:6

222:10,14

223:20 225:8

241:10

representing

189:2

reproduce

111:9

requesting

221:17

require 52:10

122:11

195:13 231:2

required 22:17

27:6 120:16

147:7 152:4

requirement

21:21 22:12

211:2 239:11

240:2

requirement's

25:11

requirements

15:13 17:15

29:7,11 30:7

46:13 86:18

100:13,14

121:22

217:13

238:20

requires 29:22

86:19 98:17

research

230:6

reserve 189:19

reset 218:5,9,9

residential

24:8 29:11

48:5 57:19

61:8 226:20

229:10,21

resistance

116:15

respect 48:6

156:3

response 7:17

11:22 158:5

171:10

rest 207:15

restate 95:21

result 6:18,18

6:22 11:14

results 31:3

63:4 83:2

101:8 114:3

128:8 171:21

171:22

172:18 176:4

223:2,9

retail 184:1

208:11

retrofit 163:4

retrofitted

163:5

return 124:12

158:22

159:21

returns 159:16

159:17

review 19:5

30:16 36:7

176:2,4

191:8 230:6

revised 230:4

revisit 137:21

144:15

Rheem 78:18

108:19

168:22

Richard 2:14

Rifle 179:10,11

riggers 29:4

right 10:5

11:22 12:3

13:11 14:1

16:11,13

17:2,20 19:1

21:8,12

25:10,10,11

27:13 32:17

34:3,10,13

36:5,14

42:19,21

43:8 45:22

48:14 53:17

54:20 57:1

59:2,5,19

61:2 63:10

63:11,15

66:2,6,20

70:3,15

72:14 77:1,9

78:10 80:7

84:12 85:10

85:11 87:5

87:10 88:11

88:20,21

93:1,3,19

94:8 96:13

97:14,16,22

98:8 99:21

101:17 103:4

103:12,17

104:9 105:3

105:8,9,10

105:11 107:2

112:15,22

113:22 114:4

115:22 116:1

116:11 117:1

117:3,16,18

118:1,13,17

118:17,19,20

119:3 121:4

122:6,8,12

123:7 125:15

126:14 127:2

129:11 132:6

132:14

134:10 135:5

135:9 140:8

142:6,14

147:12,17

152:6 154:8

154:20 157:3

162:8,12,16

162:19,21

163:7,9

169:15 170:6

173:22 174:6

177:13,15

178:14
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

37

182:17

183:11 184:2

184:19 185:2

185:13

186:11 187:5

191:18,22

192:16

195:18 196:8

196:20,22

197:12,19,20

199:2,6,9

204:7 205:14

206:2,6

207:13 208:5

209:8 210:22

212:16

213:14,19

214:8,15

216:10

229:10,12

237:18 239:9

242:7

ripple 30:3

risk 69:8,13

75:3

road 110:14

Robert 3:7

23:13

robust 72:3

rods 106:3

roll 17:17

rollout 43:4

rolls 43:6

roof 55:4,6

104:19 161:6

roof-top 76:20

roofs 58:5,6

rooftop 50:7

59:5,7

229:11,12

room 62:13

64:8 68:17

133:11

143:18

224:10

Rosecliff

180:21

Rosenquist

2:18 5:13,13

30:13,19

34:20 41:21

43:1,16,21

44:21 45:7

46:2 48:13

48:17 53:17

62:1 64:4,20

65:8 66:22

71:3 73:9,12

73:14 80:12

80:20 86:10

87:19 89:2

89:11 90:9

91:12 92:16

93:1,16 96:5

96:8 99:4

100:20

102:10,22

103:10,17,20

105:2 109:1

112:4,15,19

113:20

114:11

115:20 116:9

116:19

117:12 120:6

121:3 125:4

125:15,19

126:10,22

127:3,6,10

129:8 131:20

132:18 133:4

Roslin 9:16

10:2

rot 78:22

rotating 154:4

roughly 34:13

39:19 83:15

86:3 192:9

202:17

round-tube

200:9

rows 185:17

RTU 52:19

225:3 228:19

RTUs 53:3

226:20

rubber 58:6

rule 7:1 8:2

44:9,15

45:16 69:1

197:10

rules 6:9,10,13

7:7,13,16

47:22

rumbling

30:18

run 20:20

29:13 69:11

69:12 77:18

79:12,13

98:17 111:3

111:13 117:7

119:18 204:3

219:7,8

running 69:8

69:20 71:13

82:3 110:5

111:19

203:22 226:1

227:11

runs 60:9 93:6

104:19

182:15

Rusty 3:4 5:6

22:21 68:15

137:8 139:8

178:19 180:9

Rusty's 142:18

S

S 2:1 3:1 4:1

125:1,1,1

245:3,17

Sachs 2:19 5:2

5:2 29:16

30:11 39:16

41:3 42:13

42:22 43:12

47:7 48:3,21

49:6 52:4

53:11 60:18

61:3 74:22

76:5,13

105:20

106:16

116:20

130:13

132:20

136:19,19

160:8,20

165:17 166:8

166:14 167:7

167:10

200:11

220:10,13

224:7,7,21

225:2,11

235:16 236:2

240:10

safety 29:21

30:6 230:14

sale 161:7,17

sales 28:11

144:18 207:8

207:12 208:9

210:12

224:13

same 15:21

16:8 24:22

25:3 30:6

37:3,6 45:8

45:22 46:10

46:12,15,17

47:8 63:21

67:13 74:9

79:17,18

89:16 94:18

100:12,13,20

106:10,21

118:13

130:18

136:13,15,16

147:20

150:17

151:16

156:20

161:21

163:11,12

165:2,8

166:3,7

173:9 178:9

179:4 192:7

194:2,8,10

200:17 209:7

209:12 212:3

212:13,15

215:2 228:3

230:21,22

233:7,16

235:4 236:16

237:20

Sami 3:11 5:10

178:4 186:20

217:3

sample 83:13

83:19 84:12

84:15 85:8

86:2 94:1,6

95:20 101:10

110:15,18,19

112:22 121:1

138:4,7

samples 21:22

22:12 29:22

san 17:20,22

sanitary 41:16

satisfied

168:14

SAV186:7

202:2,14
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

38

222:17 227:5

232:12 233:4

233:6,9,10

233:14,15,16

233:22 234:2

234:21

237:21

save 104:20

124:6 214:9

218:11,20

saved 218:19

saves 124:1,4

saving 90:16

124:8 200:3

savings 28:9

30:22 41:4

44:7 45:10

45:13 48:8

48:19 49:3

49:14 57:7

58:13 60:14

60:14 61:21

87:17 89:15

95:2 98:6

99:1 108:11

109:19

198:12

saw 176:16

230:9 241:5

say 22:22 28:2

38:4,5 39:7

40:12 43:10

47:18,22

50:17 53:4

68:5 75:6

78:2 81:14

85:17 86:3

86:17 92:10

94:2 95:20

99:12 103:2

107:20 113:7

116:12

117:10,21

118:10

119:20 120:7

120:17 124:5

126:20

132:11 139:6

139:9 150:9

151:19 156:5

156:6 158:10

161:3,22

170:7,19

173:6 178:20

187:10

193:18,22

194:20

198:15 219:2

220:15

221:11 225:6

saying 25:4

36:6 49:21

51:16 54:18

61:15 68:21

80:20 86:12

87:20 91:21

96:3,10

103:11

110:22

119:16

126:15

141:17 152:7

165:7 194:19

196:10 204:9

207:14

210:11

212:12

says 6:17

105:12 121:2

186:21

191:18 216:5

scale 42:17

98:4 112:11

147:16

200:14

201:22

scaled 43:13

148:14

231:16

scales 111:5

schedule 8:4

schedules

8:10

scheduling

8:7

scientific

198:22

scope 35:21

39:18

sea 79:6

search 160:9

second 8:22

9:10,20 30:2

52:5 63:1

177:6 185:17

second-to-last

101:11

secondary

11:12 59:17

seconds 220:3

section 160:17

sector 48:5

see 9:19 11:15

23:3 25:4

29:7,11,12

31:1,4 32:5

32:21 33:4

36:20 39:4

39:15 41:18

45:3,13 46:4

57:4 64:15

66:6 70:5

75:16 81:19

82:17 84:17

85:2 87:5

89:15 91:17

92:21 94:10

94:17 96:17

98:2,3

101:10 102:6

103:7 104:12

104:13 105:4

106:5,11

109:5,8,10

110:9,22

111:7 112:5

113:4,13

116:13 118:9

124:14 127:3

128:3 133:9

138:19

149:13,16

152:7 155:16

157:10 171:1

171:2 173:5

186:7,22

192:8,15,20

193:2,3,7,16

193:19,20

197:2,3

203:3 210:21

211:11

213:16 226:6

226:19

seeing 75:10

88:2 96:20

102:8 106:2

192:16

211:13

219:21 241:4

seek 241:9

seeking

225:16

seen 13:3

17:22 22:5

30:17 47:2

74:13 88:17

139:3 142:22

159:1 208:8

segment

128:16

184:13

207:11

segregate

109:19 131:4

segregation

110:8

selected 190:1

selection

154:6

selections

174:6 177:18

177:20 178:6

182:12

sell 13:7 36:11

139:10

153:18

selling 73:3

send 6:8 157:9

180:2

sense 20:2

24:10 28:16

33:21 37:19

47:10 79:22

84:9 89:1

105:22

109:11

114:12

120:20 122:3

136:20

153:21

156:11

158:13 163:1

177:21

200:15

209:16 217:5

217:7 224:9

233:11

sensitive

173:11 175:9

sensitivity

81:16 91:14

93:12 94:9

94:14 102:1

102:3,14

104:5 106:17

109:4 111:4

116:21

119:20 125:7

125:21
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

39

126:20 127:9

127:14,16

128:10,18

130:1,17

131:3,13

132:3 153:15

209:3

sensor 227:8

227:18

sent 7:6

101:21

sentence 9:22

separate 53:18

121:11 141:4

222:16

series 134:9

serve 81:19

served 85:12

service 11:10

set 7:21,22

44:10 55:22

83:21 84:19

117:14

137:12,20

177:6 179:18

sets 60:14

177:8

setting 141:5

settle 119:13

seven 69:16

69:17 188:4

192:8 194:1

202:4 222:17

222:19 224:1

seven-and-a...

127:7 146:13

146:15

147:18 148:4

149:15

150:17

158:16 168:4

171:22

172:17 176:6

177:17 190:4

190:7,9

191:10

193:11 194:2

195:18 197:2

234:14 239:5

239:15

seven-and-h...

201:14

several 54:13

81:9 228:5

sewage 61:1,2

sewer 41:16

sex 100:4

shapes 94:18

share 33:19

36:10 43:5

57:11 224:18

225:9

shared 189:22

SharePoint

8:12,16

shares 43:8

64:18,21

193:11,12

224:11

sharpened

7:21

she's 132:13

196:1

sheet 139:1

148:7,13

149:9,11,21

sheets 13:3

Shepherd

245:3,17

shifting 45:21

ship 28:12

239:8

shipment 34:2

50:1,6 147:1

224:13 239:1

241:18

shipments

23:18 37:7

43:13 44:1,5

45:8 49:19

241:16

shipping

176:13 235:6

235:7,14,15

236:9,10,13

236:14,16,17

236:21 237:5

239:9 242:13

shooting 38:6

shoots 11:17

short 71:18,20

75:11,15,20

shorter 119:22

Shorthand

245:3

should 12:19

30:21 32:9

34:11 35:16

36:3 45:8

50:6 61:15

64:8 67:6

71:15 81:14

87:11 91:10

95:6 102:3

104:11

106:14 113:7

119:12 120:7

120:9,13,17

124:9,10

137:2 138:6

140:17

148:14

152:12,19,20

153:13

168:16

175:11 187:1

187:5 192:14

193:18

205:11 208:1

208:16

212:20

213:17

228:14

233:21,21

234:1 239:14

show 44:19

45:17 49:7

60:12 86:15

89:6,6,9 92:6

94:22 97:16

99:9 112:9

122:15 133:9

173:9 176:5

176:11 190:6

191:15

211:17 213:1

236:4

showed 13:22

44:16,20

65:9

showing 38:1

43:3,22 44:7

62:7 81:1

101:8 188:8

189:6,8

191:11

shown 90:22

shows 2:20

6:5 43:8

83:12,13,21

97:6 177:3

185:7 188:5

188:10 189:1

189:13

side 12:6 24:8

27:14 36:18

36:19,22

39:20 41:13

45:1 50:4,20

55:11 56:5

59:19,22

60:2 61:8

72:5 90:14

120:10

137:12,13

139:15 143:8

151:21 177:7

180:20

203:12

sideways

129:21

130:11

signage 145:3

significant

47:1 50:19

51:2 55:4,14

56:14 58:2

58:12 60:8

69:13,18

82:6,17

111:22 132:2

160:19

192:10,11

199:12 236:4

241:7

significantly

14:17 74:15

90:3,7

similar 11:18

37:8 149:16

188:22

193:20 226:6

226:19 228:3

simple 43:4

211:10 229:1

simply 106:18

113:6,7

simulate 187:8

simulation

110:4 179:8

simulations

94:10

simultaneous

10:3 24:4

39:8 46:8

130:5 132:16

138:13

140:19

143:21 157:4

160:13 163:2
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

40

165:15

186:13 198:5

216:6 237:14

since 7:9 19:8

35:22 44:17

64:7 80:6

85:13 89:13

96:10 108:21

111:4 139:4

142:9 148:13

150:22

165:18,18

171:14 228:8

231:14

232:15

single 13:6

81:15 88:10

146:11,12,14

146:17,17

177:2,3,4

215:1,19

226:21 227:2

229:18

232:15 236:2

single-face

229:12

single-speed

219:14

sit 113:11

site 60:8

151:22

sitting 78:10

situation

15:15 27:4

52:17 75:7

76:4 161:21

173:6 175:2

situations

14:7 136:21

six 93:15

204:13,19

211:10

Sixty 242:19

size 13:19 14:6

14:6 16:17

18:14 19:2

38:14 67:2

67:13 69:1

93:10 136:13

147:12,22

150:8,11

163:11,12,16

164:1,2

165:15 167:8

176:3 184:22

191:8 192:5

192:10,11,17

194:12,13,13

198:15,16

200:3,14,17

200:19,22

201:16

203:20 208:8

224:11

226:17 232:7

236:19

237:12

sized 92:8

165:8

sizes 14:8 15:2

38:13 67:5,7

68:10,10

95:3 137:1

147:21 192:1

192:6 193:8

195:17 196:3

196:4 198:7

199:2 201:7

226:2 241:4

sizing 92:6

skew 98:12

skewed 90:3

skimmed 6:16

skinny 154:13

slew 65:1

107:2

slide 7:13,18

13:13 41:8

43:1 44:14

62:7 65:9

80:21,22

83:5 144:6,8

146:2 171:13

185:5,21

219:13 226:9

235:18

slides 47:9

80:15 99:5

175:21 176:5

176:15

slight 171:20

190:5

slightly 61:12

62:19

SMACNA

139:1 149:22

163:13

small 8:15

24:10 40:2,9

43:21,22

47:3 48:7

53:9 110:15

140:4 144:18

144:19

171:18 192:1

194:11 195:2

210:16

241:15

smaller 51:6

140:6,14

148:1,18

200:10 226:2

smallest

197:22

smooth 179:7

snapshot

210:14

so-called

136:1

software 118:6

sold 28:5

160:18

solution 138:1

solve 97:22

some 8:6 11:4

11:19 12:2

12:11,13,20

13:3,10,21

13:22 14:13

14:16,21

18:9 19:22

23:22 24:9

24:13,14

25:2,15 30:4

31:16 35:20

43:19 45:19

51:22 52:3

54:15 57:11

58:13,19

60:20 61:19

68:4,4,14,16

68:17 69:10

69:10,18

70:8,10 71:6

71:13 72:4,6

73:16,16

74:13 78:21

86:17 87:7

87:17 88:13

89:15 91:7

91:13 93:6

93:20 94:9

94:17,22

95:9,9 101:8

109:3,9

110:18,21

111:11 112:4

112:8,10

114:11,20

115:9,10,12

115:13,17

122:3 124:15

126:11,13

127:17 132:4

134:15

135:21

136:20

138:19,20

139:14 140:6

146:2,4,9,16

151:22 154:5

154:15,18

156:1 157:1

157:10 161:3

162:20 164:7

166:22 167:7

167:22

168:19

171:13,20,21

174:6 175:20

175:22 176:2

176:4,4,9,11

176:16 183:5

183:8,12

184:9,11,16

186:16 187:8

187:18,18

188:9 189:19

190:5,5

191:8,11

192:20

195:11,16

197:9,12,14

197:17 199:2

199:4 201:19

202:7 204:14

204:15,16

205:22

208:10

211:22

212:14

213:16

214:12

216:19

217:18

219:21 223:3

225:15

226:10 228:5

231:5 240:16

240:17 241:5
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

41

somebody

213:1 214:10

215:10

somebody's

103:19

somehow 8:12

17:4

someone 26:3

27:1 161:20

something 6:3

7:2 14:3

15:14 21:9

24:6 27:9,10

27:10 28:6

30:17 40:13

42:6 55:12

55:18 58:20

60:3 63:2

72:9 88:20

88:21 99:7

109:18 113:6

115:12

118:11 120:8

120:9 128:8

135:17 136:2

136:10

137:15

139:12

140:22 144:5

153:10 154:9

154:10

159:10 164:8

170:15

188:14

193:14,20

196:9 198:21

198:22

206:15 214:5

214:7 215:5

215:10

228:20

236:15

sometime

106:15

sometimes

26:20 40:10

54:1 154:7

154:11 156:2

163:19

somewhat

138:17

151:12 154:5

211:10

somewhere

20:19 24:5

45:13 118:18

119:9 120:14

204:1

soon 126:9

210:22

221:14

sooner 135:1

160:6

sophisticated

227:11,18

229:3,4

230:17

sorry 10:15

23:12 69:5

69:14 99:17

130:19

143:16

180:14,21

187:7 232:14

238:11

sort 11:19

14:21 39:18

48:4 91:14

91:17,22

93:2 94:8,9

94:11 96:18

99:19 101:6

102:14 103:7

110:3 112:10

113:4 114:12

115:9 117:21

121:10

125:21

126:13 132:5

139:12

146:14

182:13 195:4

197:13

sorts 150:4

205:20

Sound 80:9

sounds 24:17

43:19 45:18

56:4 129:3

156:10

195:16,19

208:15

217:17

238:11

source 142:20

155:10 178:7

225:13

sources 136:4

South 17:18

17:21

space 13:17

85:21 121:14

121:16

122:16

163:17

178:22 179:1

184:1

spanning

223:5

speak 26:6

34:4 35:11

47:17 53:8

80:15 200:4

speaker 6:4,12

6:14 9:8,11

9:13,15,18

9:21,22 10:1

10:6,19 11:2

17:16 18:2,6

18:20 19:1,3

19:13,15,21

20:6,14 21:2

21:14,20

22:6,11,21

23:5,7,9,10

23:16,21

24:2 30:18

34:1,5,15

35:10,12,14

35:16 36:4

37:9,16

39:12,22

40:5,15,17

41:7 42:1,6

42:12,19

43:18 46:9

47:14 49:4

49:11 50:3

52:21 63:10

63:14 67:9

74:16,20

76:14 77:1,5

77:9,15

100:15 103:8

104:8 106:14

108:13

116:17 130:6

130:15 132:6

132:8,9,11

132:13 133:1

133:8,19,21

133:22

135:11 138:9

138:21 140:5

140:8,9,11

140:19 142:7

142:11

143:14,20,22

144:6 149:4

149:5,6,7,11

156:20,22

157:7 158:2

159:12 160:3

160:13

161:11,15

164:12,15

165:12,13

175:11,13,22

179:22 180:2

180:5,14,22

181:18 182:3

182:5,14

183:4,12

184:5,15

185:1,20

186:11,18

187:3,6,10

197:7,14,17

197:21 198:1

198:3,6

199:17 201:2

201:8,10,12

201:15,17

203:14 204:4

204:12 205:2

205:8,11,14

205:19

206:14,18

207:11,16,20

208:18 209:2

209:13,19,22

210:7,19

211:3,8,21

212:8,17

213:3 214:18

215:3,8,11

215:14,18,20

215:22 216:4

217:1,7

218:7,17,20

218:22 219:1

219:3,10

220:3,8

228:11,17

229:15,20

232:3 234:17

234:22 235:2

237:18 238:5

238:12,15,19

238:21
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

42

239:22 240:4

240:15 242:1

242:7,14,17

243:3,7,17

243:21

speaking

11:18 23:19

30:15 31:16

32:4,12,16

33:11,15,22

34:9 35:13

40:10 41:5

44:3 45:12

46:21 47:4

49:14,15,16

51:10 53:10

68:4 84:11

124:8 130:5

132:16

138:13

140:19

143:21 157:4

160:14 163:2

165:16 172:2

172:14

176:14 180:3

186:13

189:16 191:3

195:14 198:8

199:20 200:3

203:19 205:1

206:11 215:6

219:15 232:3

238:13 239:1

speaks 83:5

spec 13:3

special 167:19

specialist

140:12

specialized

59:3

specific

168:19

172:15

178:21

179:22 180:3

180:18

specifically

139:19

145:13

159:19

specifies

137:11

speed 82:2,3,4

87:16 89:20

89:21,22

111:21

183:15,15,17

184:8 227:8

227:15,16

229:4

speeds 111:20

183:10

184:11

228:12,13

spike 103:19

103:19,20

split 18:12

34:13 138:15

163:7 183:22

186:1 207:21

spoke 54:18

spots 76:7,10

square 83:14

83:16 84:13

84:20 85:3,5

85:12,14,19

86:1 93:19

94:3 96:9,13

96:17 97:8

97:10,19

102:16,17

154:14 155:2

185:11 200:8

squared 84:13

stability

204:18

stable 85:17

staff 220:6

stage 82:10

184:21 187:4

204:14

206:13

208:12

211:12,13

214:14,17

228:5

staged 172:9

187:4 202:6

205:16 208:6

208:22 209:7

209:19 229:2

230:22 231:2

231:6,12

232:5

stages 177:4

185:2 186:22

187:1,12,13

202:15,17

203:10,17

204:13,13,14

204:17,19,20

205:4,4,12

209:11 214:2

214:14,20

216:1,2

227:4,12

228:6

staging 227:14

stainless 13:1

54:2 65:22

66:2,2 71:11

71:16 72:10

73:5,8 78:19

79:9

stale 36:6

stand 29:3

standard 43:5

59:5,6 79:11

89:17 104:10

120:17

141:18,19

160:10

standards 5:9

15:10 24:20

32:16 43:4

44:10 45:11

45:14 89:12

89:14 138:1

141:6,12,15

145:1

Starr 2:21 5:3

5:3 9:7,9,9

18:8,8 24:16

25:10,18

26:1 27:22

28:16 45:18

53:20,21

55:7,17 61:5

61:5 92:3,21

93:5 95:12

95:17,19

96:1,7,22

97:7,12,21

98:10 101:18

102:15 107:4

111:14

112:12,16

113:17 114:9

114:22 116:7

118:2,17,20

123:14 124:3

124:5 128:22

129:1,2,2,6

130:3 138:2

138:11 144:8

147:10 148:7

148:11

149:13

150:13

151:18 152:6

152:14

153:17 154:1

154:15,18

155:2 158:10

159:20 163:6

183:7,18

184:12

185:22

192:13,22

202:22

203:13,20

204:7 208:4

209:15

210:11

231:21 232:5

start 8:19 9:3

38:18 50:22

55:2 56:11

69:12 70:10

77:8,17,22

89:7,22 91:1

110:7 125:21

126:20

129:12

134:16

145:17

150:18

183:19 190:1

194:12

195:13 199:8

222:2 232:7

start-up 75:8

started 4:8,13

6:8 72:13

80:6 84:14

123:2

starting 30:15

105:3 120:10

125:20 128:4

199:13 244:1

starts 56:13

57:6 67:19

78:3 206:19

Stas 3:2

220:17,17

state-wide

17:15

stated 82:22

statement
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

43

93:22 130:14

176:9

states 99:10

99:14,15

100:3

static 111:22

139:15

142:14,16

143:7 151:7

152:5,19,20

153:1,8

158:16 159:5

159:15

190:19,22

205:8 218:9

statics 91:3,4

91:6 151:20

stating 105:7

statistical 22:2

22:13

statistics

22:16 25:4

175:18

status 206:13

220:2

statutory

141:11,18

145:1

stay 45:21,22

60:1 144:19

243:7

stays 141:14

150:17 166:6

steel 13:1,8

54:2 65:16

66:7 71:11

73:5,8 78:20

79:9

step 131:21

stepped 6:2

steps 193:8

still 13:7 49:15

69:7 77:2

78:9 87:1

106:12

108:17

120:15 121:5

123:11

133:13

134:20

137:22 152:4

166:3,6

179:8 212:16

238:5

stock 104:15

stop 107:19

113:13

stores 208:11

story 199:5

200:3 211:15

straight 37:15

67:7 99:9

192:22 193:1

224:17

straightforw...

109:18

116:12

224:14

stranded 48:4

strange

154:14 182:8

strict 86:18

Strictly 34:15

strong 167:4

176:9 200:2

stuck 102:5

studied 60:7

studies 60:12

108:9

study 100:1

101:1 106:8

106:10

229:15

stuff 10:18

16:19 48:1

51:7 61:7

92:7 95:13

97:22 107:11

114:17

122:22,22

126:6,7

138:6 153:15

157:2 181:15

187:9 207:15

style 243:8

sub-mat

126:16

subassembl...

230:11

subject 31:17

137:22 230:2

submittals

151:4

such 55:8

167:22 168:1

sudden 123:1

sufficient

178:9 216:3

suggest 37:9

80:6 109:17

219:19

221:17

suggested

109:4 113:2

199:2

suggesting

112:5 117:17

196:2

suggestion

93:12 109:2

110:20 141:8

242:21

suggestions

198:2

suggests

197:3 230:6

sulfur 73:17

74:14

sum 166:14

summarize

29:17

summarizes

45:9

summary 7:13

45:15 131:8

171:13

188:22

summer 78:21

79:16

supplemental

6:22

supplied 64:1

supplier 151:1

152:11

157:17

203:17 205:9

205:10 218:9

suppliers

157:8

supply 41:19

60:22 61:4

158:21

159:16,21

support 84:1

supposed

231:21

sure 7:9 10:17

17:21 20:8

24:7 30:6

34:7,20

38:17 48:13

64:17 65:20

65:21,22

66:3 81:3

85:6 89:3

100:3 104:19

159:11

165:21 166:2

166:6 170:21

172:20

173:12

175:10

188:18,20

197:19 209:3

215:8 216:14

221:19 224:8

238:6

surety 21:18

surface 200:14

surprised

165:7

surveying

91:13

suspect 40:2

111:4

switch 77:21

183:14

switching

12:12 195:20

226:22

synch 16:1,7

system 18:7

40:19,22

41:2,20

58:10 92:17

93:3 139:3

150:3,19

154:2 159:21

163:22

183:10,21

203:4 206:3

209:10

227:22

230:20 232:1

systems 41:19

59:4 136:1

138:5 139:6

158:20 208:7

209:18 227:7

230:8 232:8

T

T 125:1

tab 158:14

table 4:9,10

12:15 14:3

27:19,20

83:7 86:4

128:14

137:15 141:1
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

44

235:5,18

tables 30:20

take 32:4

50:19 55:11

55:12 80:9

80:10 83:8

110:11

113:10

116:17

117:15

118:14

119:18 130:4

131:3 132:2

132:7,22

134:1,21

138:7 146:10

146:20

155:13 156:8

168:17 170:1

170:2,7

172:11

177:13

195:18

220:18 225:7

taken 62:20,21

82:11 124:21

226:11

takes 32:9

71:21 99:22

100:1 145:11

taking 58:19

91:14 96:8

112:21,21

115:7 116:11

205:22

233:21

talk 8:1 10:17

10:22 11:4

11:20 17:3

50:22 57:8

73:19 80:13

86:5 119:13

138:12,14,18

142:4 144:3

145:22

157:18 158:6

170:9,17

175:21

177:16

179:16

208:16

talked 61:6

62:5,6 70:9

75:2,4 88:13

96:1 137:18

150:22

167:16

174:11

175:13

talking 7:18

10:3 24:4

39:8 44:5

46:8 48:1

50:3,20 51:3

55:1 56:10

56:12,14

71:19 76:3

95:1 101:19

102:18 104:2

104:3 108:3

109:13 112:3

112:11 113:8

116:13 125:7

126:1 129:12

145:13

148:17 150:2

163:14

167:18 183:7

198:5 202:16

206:16

210:16 216:6

229:11 234:6

237:14

talks 12:6

tall 51:2

tandem 187:13

236:3

target 174:13

174:16 188:9

task 137:12,12

239:5

TCs 165:20

team 117:7

tear-down

13:16

tear-downs

13:15 15:2

222:12,21,21

tech 238:10

240:22

technical

60:20

technologies

98:11,11

technology

16:10 57:18

89:16 111:17

166:10,11,12

166:13

235:20

Ted 4:3,14

telephone

2:20 3:5

tell 19:4 28:15

65:20,21

66:3 154:17

167:5 173:8

212:1 216:8

tells 128:15

temperate

29:7

temperature

70:6 74:1,8

75:9,22 82:7

82:8 92:18

109:20

111:11 113:3

117:19

127:20,20

128:2 131:6

131:22

168:17 205:9

205:10

209:14

214:20 215:2

218:4,5

227:19

238:20

temperatures

75:16,19

76:12 112:8

116:6 189:5

218:4

ten 211:10

tend 17:17

75:20 76:6

98:13 100:12

155:20

tends 148:20

Tennessee

100:3

tentative 8:4

terminals

206:4

terminology

185:6

terms 8:7 46:1

80:17 85:9

92:5 110:17

159:1 200:16

213:8 231:8

Terzigni 3:3

133:19

138:22,22

148:8 149:2

149:8,8,18

155:19,20

157:1,6,9,14

158:11

159:11,14

160:15

163:13

test 21:21

22:12 25:1

82:19 90:16

137:10,22

142:9,14

189:2 190:17

203:2 205:18

209:10 214:2

214:19,21

243:17

tested 29:22

80:1 139:16

142:11,13

143:5 214:1

testimonies

211:11

testing 16:8

20:6 22:4,5

26:2 65:20

90:12 137:15

tests 38:8

79:11,13

142:22

than 14:17,19

19:18 22:20

28:7 34:22

36:18 37:5

38:15 50:13

50:14 54:13

71:13,21

74:12 80:13

81:18 82:1

86:19 89:9

91:6 94:5

97:16 101:4

101:22 111:8

115:7 139:11

139:22 143:9

150:5,6

151:13

152:17

155:10 182:7

189:18 203:5

204:5,17

206:8 207:9

207:13

218:18

thank 4:3,5 6:7
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

45

42:22 71:2

74:21 78:14

80:4 123:4

130:15,15

132:17,20

133:8,21

134:2 135:9

145:15,19

149:11

160:20 166:8

169:21

171:11 181:6

185:19

221:16

243:22

thanks 82:13

Tharp 3:4 5:6

5:6 24:5

68:14,15

137:8,8

139:8 178:19

179:6,11

180:13 201:5

theirs 173:2

themselves

173:17

Thereupon

244:3

thermal 11:11

12:7

thermostat

227:3

thing 4:7 6:17

12:5 13:13

14:10 21:20

29:19 30:2

36:12 38:8

46:9,12 50:8

51:9 77:15

81:11 82:5

82:12,21

97:19 98:22

100:10

104:21 107:5

108:12,14

118:13 120:6

121:20,21

123:15

128:11

130:18 135:2

136:11 137:9

139:18

151:16,18

152:18

154:18

155:19

158:10 191:7

194:10 200:1

208:3 209:15

219:5 238:21

241:14

things 16:7

20:2,10 22:8

22:17 24:13

24:15 49:20

54:10 55:20

58:5 64:13

64:16 70:8

72:14 78:16

81:2 82:20

87:11 89:7

90:9 91:13

93:17 95:10

98:5 101:18

105:19 106:3

107:2,10,13

107:14 108:7

109:4,6,9

112:5 117:8

117:16,17

118:2 134:8

134:20

138:17

154:14

158:19 166:6

171:13 184:7

205:20

208:10

211:17 218:2

218:7,10

221:13

think 6:14,20

7:19 8:13,16

9:3 10:17,19

11:2 12:16

13:3 14:12

14:16,20

15:2 16:2,21

22:21 23:1

24:5,6 27:18

28:1 29:17

31:18 33:16

34:5 36:3

40:5 41:18

47:4 56:17

58:2 62:9,11

62:22 63:21

65:15,17

66:18 67:15

68:3 71:9,15

74:6,17 75:5

80:10 81:9

85:22 87:17

87:21 90:10

90:10,15

91:12,21

93:20 101:21

102:12

103:15 104:5

104:6,11

107:4 108:4

110:1,5,11

110:13,17

111:8,10,12

112:4 114:17

116:4 117:4

117:7 119:6

119:10,11,13

119:16 120:1

124:9 125:8

125:19

126:11,12

128:11,14

129:9,11

130:6 132:4

134:14 136:7

137:17

138:11

139:22 140:5

140:21

144:17,19

145:21 152:3

158:6 161:18

163:20 164:6

168:20 171:1

173:4 174:7

175:11

177:18 179:2

179:21

182:20

183:16

184:15

185:12

188:19 192:5

198:14,22

199:17 200:1

200:12

201:17 206:7

206:11,14

208:14

212:16 213:9

214:8,21

215:20 216:4

217:20,22

218:14 219:4

219:17

221:13

223:21

225:13

231:22 236:6

236:7,11

238:10 239:3

242:6,15

thinking 20:1

102:15

116:10

187:14 208:5

213:5 221:6

238:17

third 177:8

202:9

third-level

230:17

thorough

197:4,5

thought 26:13

27:22 31:6

44:17 61:14

61:21 88:19

152:15 161:2

174:4 175:17

182:7 221:19

232:6 234:5

thoughts

29:15 46:1

177:15

three 46:5

48:14 71:19

113:12,12

171:18 177:4

177:6,9

186:4,12

187:1,5,6

191:10

202:15,16

203:10

207:17 210:1

211:12 216:1

216:2 219:16

227:12,17

228:4 229:19

three-ball

230:10

thrown 8:6

151:13

thumbs

129:21,21,22

130:4,7,10

130:11,12,21

133:9,20,22
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

46

171:6,8,9

tier 36:19

tiered 37:1

tiers 58:1

tighter 60:16

60:16

time 8:2,7,21

8:22 9:17

15:21 16:20

19:7,7 20:9

34:17 35:5

43:11 47:21

54:4 55:14

60:10 68:6

75:15 80:11

81:11 83:1

87:11 95:5

105:6,17

107:22

116:10 119:7

124:11

129:10

134:21

139:21 158:5

169:20

176:17

189:19 196:4

196:6 206:20

213:7 221:7

timeline 15:3

times 8:20

26:20 50:13

50:14 69:19

70:7 75:10

75:11,13,18

75:20 76:3

81:9 107:16

113:13 185:9

207:17 209:3

timing 15:22

54:19

Title 95:7,8

105:22

today 4:4 6:15

7:8 8:3 10:17

57:12 97:22

114:2 137:10

139:2,7

140:10

141:10,19

142:8,16,19

155:14 156:9

161:6 172:18

175:15,19

184:6,8

194:20 195:4

196:18

217:15 221:7

234:15

together 17:5

44:15 121:17

134:22

159:21

177:21 187:2

209:20

240:20

241:19,22

tolerance

188:9

tomorrow 9:16

10:2,22

127:6 135:21

144:11 157:2

157:5,10,11

157:22 158:1

158:3,4

178:17

189:20 221:7

221:8 235:10

244:2

ton 114:3

146:13,15

171:17,22

172:3 177:17

181:20 183:4

184:16 190:7

190:9 191:10

193:11,12,21

194:1,3,5

195:3,3,7,18

196:17,20

197:2,3

201:14,20

202:4 206:17

208:2 212:21

225:14 238:2

239:16

ton's 194:2

tone 193:13

tonight 177:14

tonnage 232:1

234:22 235:1

tonnages

174:15

tons 79:19

92:12 143:10

143:17

172:20

174:10

175:14 176:1

176:7,17

183:19 190:4

190:4,14

200:7 201:13

206:18,20

207:2,3,4,22

208:5 210:8

212:18 216:5

217:1 222:17

222:19 224:1

225:20

226:18 229:1

229:16 230:3

231:11

234:14 238:4

239:5 240:19

240:21 241:6

241:7,11

242:8

took 39:17

96:16 104:17

122:14 202:3

tool 201:5

top 30:19

50:20 92:19

117:21

181:13,16

196:22

207:10

230:18 235:8

topic 13:12

135:18

143:19

178:15

217:20

topics 7:19

220:22

total 42:17

59:1 98:7,7

148:18 152:2

152:18,20

159:5,15

185:10

203:22

207:12

210:22

totally 15:20

55:12 206:3

totals 153:2

touch 220:21

touched 136:5

tough 15:3

156:2 213:3

219:4

tougher 14:19

towards

135:12

155:20

199:18

track 17:8

28:10,11,14

traditional

184:21

traffic 163:22

trailer 236:22

237:2

Trane 4:18

15:19 25:5

33:14 40:21

57:17 65:4

151:16

transcribe

245:4

transcript

60:19 170:20

245:5

transferred

180:11

transformers

230:12

transition 63:9

219:18

transitioning

134:7

translation

240:11

treat 141:11

175:6

treated 175:12

treatment

141:10

tremendous

114:1

trend 11:18

123:7

trends 176:3

191:8

trickling 84:17

tried 22:21

179:2 181:10

triggered

227:6

trouble 43:19

108:15 119:5

197:7 211:22

214:10

truck 242:18

242:19

true 53:5

161:19
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

47

175:16 210:4

211:14

237:17

238:15

240:18 245:5

trust 30:11

95:18

try 29:17 32:2

32:17 63:3

88:16 100:16

101:2 114:16

126:11 129:8

138:15 147:2

155:22 157:1

157:22

159:18 167:4

176:11

195:12

213:20

217:18

221:11,14

223:19 243:4

trying8:20

26:3 34:1

38:19 40:5

75:5 77:10

78:4 93:17

93:17 103:2

111:9 113:17

114:17

126:13

153:12

207:21 211:9

215:9 241:9

242:2

TSL 44:9 45:20

46:1,4

TSL4 44:9

TSL5 57:15

tube 63:13

67:16 68:17

79:2,3 179:7

185:16,17

tubes 62:18

63:7,17,19

67:17 79:16

turn 49:4 64:5

96:14 126:9

153:14

turned 126:10

183:1 203:4

211:20

turning 135:3

turns 37:13

132:1 169:17

211:15,16

two 14:20,20

21:21 22:12

29:22 46:5

48:10 51:1

53:18 66:1

66:11,11,14

66:16,17

67:4,7,10,11

74:17 97:1

104:6 111:14

112:2 119:8

119:10

120:11,13

134:8 157:7

160:19

171:17

172:15 177:4

181:12

183:10

184:10 185:9

185:9,9,16

185:16,17,18

186:21,22

187:4,12,13

200:9,20

208:12 214:1

214:13,17,20

222:15

223:12,14,17

227:3 232:16

240:2,5,8,13

241:11

242:20

two-speed

89:8 91:2

98:16,22

183:13 184:4

two-stage

209:17

213:17,18

215:5,9

type 59:7

74:18 76:4

84:19 130:9

188:22

201:11

226:14,15

types 12:21

53:9 83:6

138:17

typical 158:15

184:2

typically53:22

99:22 100:1

144:4 174:9

179:1 203:20

U

U.S 237:6

UL 133:17

ultimately 38:8

136:7

un-mute 78:12

unable 145:7

unanimous

133:11

uncertainties

116:22

uncertainty

225:13

undersized

93:7

understand

15:11 16:4

27:1 41:12

57:10 58:3

58:13,15

101:6 104:2

120:15

144:20

145:21 172:6

185:6 187:8

188:18

195:10

228:21

understandi...

17:17 25:6

42:14 58:17

64:12 77:10

97:13 102:4

179:6 187:3

187:12

217:14

understood

48:4

unfortunately

41:8 61:19

154:7 156:2

unit 14:6 19:12

21:3,12 41:1

41:19 48:8

51:4 54:8,13

54:21 55:5,6

55:7,10,10

55:16 56:3,9

56:13,14

66:19 68:9

73:3 78:22

80:2 81:15

113:22

137:15 148:5

148:18

150:11,18

151:9 154:20

159:22 161:5

161:20,21

162:5,5

163:16,17,21

175:16 182:9

183:9 184:17

184:18

187:12

195:18

196:14

197:22

199:15 203:9

205:2 206:4

207:18 213:1

213:17,21,22

215:5,9

216:17

223:11 226:6

226:17 228:9

228:22 229:6

232:21 239:9

240:7,12

unit's 54:20

203:22

unit-size 176:3

UNITARY1:3

unites 60:9

233:9

units 14:17

18:9,13,18

18:21 19:2,7

19:8,19 20:1

28:5 39:20

39:20 41:5

54:9 55:3,20

59:2,3 74:18

76:16,20,21

79:13 81:18

81:19,21

82:15 84:21

85:3,4

136:13,16

146:17,18

148:1 154:12

158:17

159:14

163:10,15

165:8,14

167:1 174:2

174:21
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

48

175:15,15,19

176:21

177:22 178:8

181:9,16

182:1,16,22

184:6,9,16

184:20 186:4

186:10

191:16

197:17 200:8

200:9 202:7

204:10,22

205:5 207:5

208:12

210:13

212:11,14

213:16

217:16

219:14 222:5

223:12 226:3

226:4 227:16

229:11,12

230:10,16

236:18,21

240:2,8,13

242:18

243:11,13

universal

229:9

unless 98:21

129:13

142:11 160:6

182:17,18

215:16

218:12 219:4

unrelated

105:18

update 63:4

134:12

updated 35:19

35:22 106:10

updates 65:1

upgrade

228:15

upon 64:21

81:4 84:15

92:18 115:6

148:14

171:17

195:17

220:21 222:5

upper 28:2,7

49:7

upstairs 80:9

uptake 99:7,21

upward 42:7

upwards

152:21

urgent 144:12

144:14

urging 221:10

usage 28:1

89:6 92:22

use 36:3 37:14

78:6,8 79:8

79:17 80:1

82:18 84:9

91:18 98:8

105:16 119:7

121:19 131:8

131:22

138:16

175:18

181:19

191:16

200:22 203:3

205:5 219:7

222:6 223:13

224:19

225:10 227:7

uses 83:16

usually 50:19

77:16 95:8

100:16

193:11,12

242:20

utilities 73:17

74:13

utility 24:13

V

VA 230:12

valid 160:15

239:3

validate 155:9

value 52:8,9

103:6 138:8

138:10

valued 45:13

values 224:19

vap 56:12,12

variability 20:6

41:4

variable

109:13 184:8

227:15,16

229:4 231:3

variable-spe...

89:8 111:18

variants

168:15

variation 22:1

22:4 71:14

71:15 218:3

variations

75:19 209:3

varied 181:9

226:16

variety 53:9

various 32:5

49:2 136:4

172:19

vary 74:2

218:4 224:11

VAV172:9

175:15,16,19

176:1 183:21

184:6,11,18

184:21 185:2

186:8 202:2

202:8,10,12

202:14 203:4

203:15,19

204:11,17

205:3,5,7,15

205:19,22

206:3,21

207:5,22

208:7,20,22

209:7,10,18

209:18,20

211:7,14,22

212:3,11,15

212:18 213:1

213:10,17,21

213:22 214:2

215:5,9,13

215:18 217:9

217:12,12,16

217:18,21

219:14

230:16 231:3

231:14,19

232:19,22

233:10,16,17

233:17 234:2

234:5,13

238:1,3,4,11

238:15,19

239:9,9

240:3,7,12

240:22 241:1

velocity 150:6

150:16,16

ventilation

203:13

218:10,14

venting 31:10

venture 41:21

version 34:21

53:6 99:15

99:16,17,18

190:22

versions 74:18

versus 23:18

25:8 44:19

45:2 53:1

54:21 69:8

110:10 131:6

146:11,12

148:4,4

151:10 155:9

209:20

231:12,14

233:2 238:15

241:15

VFD 183:1,14

183:14

227:20,22

229:2

VFDs 186:7,9

227:5

via 2:20 3:5

view 57:7

133:7 220:22

viewpoint

153:12

VNV 183:20

184:3

volleyball

93:14

Volt 227:11

volume 36:21

44:14,16

53:7 139:11

140:3 172:9

184:10,22

201:6,11,21

202:6,6

206:20 207:9

208:6 209:7

209:20 210:8

213:4 217:11

229:2 230:22

231:6,6,12

231:12,19

232:5 242:19

volumes 210:3

vote 129:16

130:4,19,21
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

49

132:22

133:15

140:22 144:5

152:13 156:9

213:13

voting 141:2

166:18

W

waiting 134:20

waiver 142:8

143:3,3,4,5

walk 188:17

walked 4:5

walking 111:8

walls 147:16

Walmart

208:10 210:9

Waltner 3:5

6:4 7:7

133:15

want 7:8 10:17

11:20 20:8

21:14 28:20

29:16 34:6

36:15 38:18

48:8 56:18

58:5,11

61:16 64:2

68:18 81:10

81:16 104:4

105:21

110:14 111:2

113:14 115:4

115:4 118:10

123:22

140:16

144:11

145:17 155:6

156:6,8

159:12,15

160:1 162:17

173:11,12

174:19,20,22

175:8,9

176:18

179:16 181:5

182:6 183:15

185:6 188:20

198:22 201:7

208:3 211:13

215:11,18

218:6 219:22

224:8 234:8

235:11 243:3

wanted 12:2

83:2 101:18

117:2 134:8

134:14

135:17 142:5

216:14

220:18

wanting 72:20

200:16

wants 132:2

178:16 188:1

warehouse

40:11,13,14

warm 64:5

77:20 78:4

warm-up

77:16

warranty 54:1

wash 162:1

wasn't 21:4

72:19,22

87:22 106:22

147:9

water 58:10

60:22 61:4

156:4

watt 214:6

wattage

187:18 188:7

188:7 189:1

watts 48:14

way 10:20

22:19 28:10

28:11,14,14

33:22 39:12

56:1 57:8

68:19 83:4

84:5 88:14

93:13 102:5

102:20

104:17 108:2

124:16 126:2

127:8,10,22

147:20 148:2

155:9,16

174:2 175:5

182:19 203:7

212:3,13,16

217:11,11

239:4,13,16

240:9

ways 57:3 74:9

156:5 167:5

we'd 4:7 34:12

88:15 139:18

199:1 223:13

224:17 225:8

we're 8:22

10:9 11:22

12:1,3 13:11

14:4 20:9,20

26:8 27:6,12

27:12 34:1,7

35:22 36:12

38:17 40:15

44:5,15

49:12 60:21

63:3 64:22

66:18 69:8

79:15 80:14

82:3 83:14

84:22 86:3

86:22 91:8,9

94:5 96:20

104:10,17

105:7 106:2

106:17 108:3

108:21

109:13

111:15 112:2

112:11 113:8

114:7,19

115:16,17

116:13,22

117:1,3,17

119:3,8,13

120:8,10

122:21,22

125:2,20

126:1 128:16

129:8 130:14

131:21 134:3

134:6,20

137:19

144:17,17

158:2 166:21

167:11

168:10

170:11,22

173:12,20,21

176:5,10

198:6 199:17

205:6 206:10

206:16 207:9

207:21 209:2

210:15 212:2

212:16 221:4

221:5 222:10

223:6,7,8

230:15

232:15

233:19

234:18 241:4

241:9 243:22

244:1

we've 7:20

13:3 22:5

35:20 58:1

60:6 62:5,14

74:13 78:20

81:1,7,8 82:5

82:13,20,21

86:4 91:19

93:13,13

95:6 107:3

110:12 112:8

122:20

123:12 126:6

126:17,19

130:6 154:12

163:14

171:14 176:6

176:13 198:3

212:13

217:20 221:1

222:15,19,20

222:20

223:19

226:10,11,12

226:16,16

230:5,8

235:5 237:5

webinar 6:5

webinars 8:6

website

160:10

Wednesday

129:5 133:2

133:5

week 82:13,22

83:17 91:20

101:21

127:12 128:8

131:3 135:1

135:3 151:14

week's 83:8

weeks 93:15

113:12

weighs 236:15

weight 83:12

224:19 235:7

235:15 237:9

239:17,20

241:15

weighted
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

50

83:19 95:20

210:6,7

224:12,22

weighted-av...

189:11

weighting 83:9

83:12 90:2,2

90:8 197:12

197:14

weights

242:12

weird 24:14

welcome

224:18

well-taken

160:20

went 14:1 64:1

86:14,21

93:5 145:4

187:17

Westphalen

11:4 135:13

135:14

136:17 137:4

146:1 148:2

148:21 149:3

152:12

153:10

156:16 159:9

167:16 168:8

168:19

169:10,13,16

171:12 174:1

174:9 175:20

176:1 178:8

178:14 179:1

179:10,15

180:9,16

181:2,12,22

182:4,11,21

185:3,12

186:3,16

187:15

188:21 190:3

190:9,13

192:19 193:7

193:17

194:18

195:10 199:3

200:1,6

202:1 203:9

204:8,21

205:6 206:7

209:9,14

211:5,19

212:22 213:5

213:9,15

214:9,16,22

215:7,16

216:2,7

217:14

218:16 219:9

219:13

229:17

Westphanen

3:6 5:14,14

11:3 62:10

62:21 66:5

66:13

wet 79:2,16

whatever's

229:6

whenever 9:10

where 8:15

12:3 13:8

15:15 16:18

17:11 19:2

25:2,13 28:6

29:1 31:15

32:16 34:6

36:19 37:1

40:13 43:4

54:11 56:4

57:5 58:8

59:4 61:10

68:21 69:7

69:19 72:11

74:4 75:16

83:5,6 84:7,8

84:22 85:20

87:8 91:4

92:21 98:12

113:3,19,21

114:2,7

115:18 121:8

121:11

122:20 123:2

126:8 134:12

147:8 154:12

154:17 162:2

162:3 163:20

172:6 173:6

173:20

174:21 178:5

178:20

179:19 186:7

191:12 193:8

193:15 194:5

194:9,19

196:2 198:13

199:14,15

203:3 223:7

226:1 228:4

232:8 238:1

240:7 243:10

where's 57:14

57:15 185:20

whether 8:5,22

47:20 48:8

53:14,15

56:2,20 57:8

72:8 84:2,11

86:1 88:4

96:19 102:12

136:9,14

148:9,14

149:16 150:9

150:17 163:5

164:8 168:14

177:1 191:18

191:21

193:19 211:6

218:13 225:7

230:14

233:20,21

236:20

whichever

242:22

white 99:18

Whitwell 3:7

5:7,7 10:15

10:15 18:15

18:16 23:14

33:8 34:10

34:17 35:2,3

36:16,16

37:12 38:11

38:22 39:5

40:3,3 42:10

59:10,10

62:3,3,11

64:11,15

67:14 69:5,6

70:2,4,16,19

71:1,9 72:17

73:4 74:5

76:2,8,19

77:4,13 78:8

140:2,2

142:13,20

143:4,11,13

150:20,21

152:3,8

153:22

157:16,16

158:4 161:18

162:10,13,19

162:22 163:3

163:9 164:5

164:13,17,22

165:10,14,20

166:1,10,15

167:1 171:4

174:4 184:19

185:4,4,19

186:6,14

189:21 190:7

190:11

198:14 199:6

199:11

201:19

205:17

208:22 209:6

210:21 212:2

212:12,20

213:12 214:4

214:13

228:21

229:10,14

230:1,21

231:4,10,18

233:1,5,12

who's 23:15

141:6 148:8

whole 50:8

51:4 54:8,21

55:4 61:11

76:8,9

104:21 107:2

160:17 195:5

219:5 229:15

wholesale

117:17

whose 21:12

wider 63:15

width 63:8

68:8

Williams 3:8

5:18,18

willing 117:6,6

157:18

Wilson 1:8

windows

105:13

winning 52:12

Winningham

3:9 5:4,4

20:11,16,16

28:18 40:7,7

44:12 45:4
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

51

51:8,21 53:4

59:6 68:1

75:14,18

125:17

winter 79:21

wires 155:16

wish 139:2

170:10

191:22

within 188:11

193:1 199:14

199:15 223:9

won't 49:22

80:9 109:12

119:11

134:21

139:15

217:12

wonder 41:9

44:17 47:13

47:16

wondering

143:20

words 24:21

45:21 98:5

98:13 102:6

102:19 137:2

192:22

194:18

work 55:14

78:15 87:9

95:7,10

102:13 103:9

107:2,11

113:18 118:5

135:20 143:2

143:2 144:4

149:22 172:1

173:3 184:4

214:11

worked 187:11

working 1:5

8:14 36:1

46:3 63:5

88:1,11

113:14 119:3

123:20 159:3

160:2 171:14

217:18

220:19 221:6

works 149:20

175:10

182:20

world 57:4

87:18 156:1

203:3 218:19

240:1

worry 120:5

137:2

worst 194:16

worth 8:17

47:10 114:17

160:11

202:16

210:13,17

wrap 237:13

wraps 45:15

wrong 88:20

107:14

X

X 161:5

Xing 3:10 5:20

Xu 3:10 5:20

5:20

xxx 183:20

Y

Y 161:6

yeah 9:13 10:6

16:6 23:5,7

34:20 35:2

37:12 40:3

40:12 42:10

43:21 44:21

45:7 48:16

51:3,7 63:14

64:20 70:16

70:19 71:1,9

71:17 72:3

73:19 74:5

76:2 77:13

80:20 86:14

92:16 93:5

94:14 96:5

97:5 98:9,9

99:22 100:7

100:10,16,20

102:18

112:19

114:11,11

124:3,8

128:18 129:2

131:1 134:19

135:8 142:20

143:12,16

144:15,16

145:5,8,19

149:3 152:7

152:16 157:6

158:4 159:9

159:20 163:3

164:5,6,22

165:13 166:1

169:12

175:11 181:6

184:5 186:14

186:16

187:10

190:13 193:9

195:10

198:14 201:8

207:19

212:17

214:13 215:3

228:19

231:10

233:20

238:14

242:12,17

243:3,16,22

year 19:16

21:9 35:4

43:15,15,15

52:7,9 69:20

81:14 120:17

128:16

years 21:3,6

52:8 58:22

71:19 94:20

100:2,15

120:3,4,5

139:4,5

163:12 165:9

165:10

yellow 99:14

Yep 9:21

yet 16:22

17:22 24:10

62:22 81:12

84:19 87:1

127:12 130:7

175:14 221:5

Z

Z 224:15

Zendah 3:11

5:10,10

178:4,5,12

186:19,20

187:5,7

217:3,3,9

zero 43:20

87:7 108:1

111:2 115:18

117:3,9

118:4,14

120:9,10,14

142:13,16

147:13,13

164:20

166:14

197:15

212:14

zero-pressure

42:15

zone 60:13

95:1,4 97:6

122:1 238:20

240:8,14

zones 95:4

240:5,12

zoning 240:2,5

0

05 49:7

1

1 136:22

139:11,22

146:13

183:15

232:11 233:2

233:3 237:20

237:21

240:12,21

1,000 43:15

110:12

113:21

1,033 118:7,8

1.25 147:21

1.75 151:21

1:30 124:12,13

124:14,15

10 52:1 69:11

74:11 120:3

139:4 170:4

170:7 193:12

193:20 194:1

194:3,3,5

195:3,3,7

196:17,19

197:3 201:14

206:16

207:13,16

210:16

10-ton 207:18

10-year 54:1

10.1 172:4,5

10.6 172:4

213:2

100 20:8
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

52

101:15

108:16 118:7

162:14,20

164:21 204:1

241:7

100-percent

189:4

101 37:10

1033 80:13

83:13

11 1:7 99:1

11.1 243:13

11.3 243:14

12 192:11

193:20 194:3

223:12

12-and-a-half

41:9 193:13

12:30 80:7

124:11

125 32:11

13 41:8 223:12

13.2 223:13

131 32:11

135 182:9

210:1,1

14 15:14 17:21

199:13

14.9 214:1,16

15 19:12 21:3

21:6 70:5,6,7

74:11 75:6

126:11,16,16

127:7,8,11

148:4 149:15

150:18 151:7

153:19

158:16

159:14

169:17 170:7

170:11

174:10

176:17 188:5

190:4 191:10

193:21

194:10,10

200:7 202:4

222:17,19

224:1 238:2

238:4

15-minute

170:8

15-ton 114:3

136:15

147:19 168:4

171:21 172:9

172:17

15-year 52:1

15th 206:10

16 235:19

17 185:8

194:11

17-ton 92:10

170 32:11

175,000 16:14

18 11:9

19 199:13

1980 94:17

1995 85:13

1999 165:18

1st 7:10

2

2 111:1 115:4

115:7 147:11

147:11,14,15

148:3,6

152:9 154:10

154:21 155:9

169:11

171:16

179:10,11

183:16

190:21

232:11 233:2

233:4 237:21

241:1

2-A 122:1

2-speed 183:8

2,000 150:16

2.5 168:2

2:00 124:12

20 58:22 74:12

77:11 92:10

92:12 95:1

120:3 122:15

160:6 162:8

162:10 164:8

164:17 165:3

207:3 208:5

210:3,8

218:20

227:11

235:19

240:16 241:6

242:8

20-and-up

210:4

20-ton 210:13

200 138:4

200,000 52:9

2003 84:16

96:10 106:8

2010 99:13

122:1

2012 84:16,18

99:13 121:8

2013 122:17

2014 106:12

2015 1:7 99:21

245:12

2018 95:5

122:17

2019 95:5

120:17

2020 104:9

123:18

20th 221:18

21.4 185:10

2111 1:8

214-square-i...

185:8

24 95:7,9

106:1 185:5

227:3

240 210:2,2

241:19

25 93:7 165:12

168:1 189:12

210:8 217:1

25-ton 210:3

25-year 167:12

250 55:2 67:2

250,000 14:11

26th 245:12

28th 220:5

29 112:17

290 181:20

2nd 7:10

3

3 115:4 120:5

147:8 169:11

169:11

3-A 95:4 122:1

3.2 120:5

3.98 97:2

102:19 103:6

109:3

3:00 9:5,11,20

10:10

30 52:8 77:11

86:9,13 87:7

93:8 95:1

96:19 102:22

117:20 121:5

123:16

127:12 148:4

163:12 165:9

165:10 172:3

172:18,20

175:14 176:1

182:20 183:1

183:4,19

184:16

190:14

191:10

201:13 203:4

203:11,21

204:1,3,5

206:17,18

207:6,22

210:3 212:18

212:21 216:5

225:14,20

226:18 229:1

230:3 231:11

240:19,21

241:6,11

30-ton 56:14

126:16

136:15

147:15,19

149:16

150:18

158:17

159:14 168:6

172:1 176:10

177:19

182:11 183:9

184:9 204:22

207:8 208:19

226:8 231:17

30,000 242:18

321 13:4

33 101:20

102:7 107:20

108:1 115:15

118:3 120:10

120:16,20

35 83:15

151:12

152:10 155:9

36 49:2,8

83:20 86:8

86:13 95:15

36-ton 182:8

39 96:2

4
Meeting May 11, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

53

4 115:4 168:10

168:11

184:11

4-A 95:4 122:4

4.44 203:11

4:00 8:21 9:5

4:23 244:4

40 15:14 32:22

122:15

123:16

182:18,19

202:17 203:5

207:2,4,9

208:2

400 181:20

409 13:2,4

79:9

42.8 185:10

45 44:16

235:18

450 67:5

46/54 34:19

37:12

5

5 45:11,12

60:13 95:1

136:22

143:10,17

168:9

5,000 43:15

5.36 97:2

102:18 109:3

5:00 9:4 10:10

50 23:2,3

25:19,19

77:11 84:21

84:22 85:4

85:15 96:11

176:7 189:12

50-foot 55:6

50/49 37:10

50/50 34:18

35:15,15

37:10 70:14

50/50's 36:14

500 43:15

51 32:11

58 69:15 70:7

6

6 52:7

60 108:1

109:21

206:20 220:3

236:15 241:6

242:8

63 207:3

65 108:1

109:21

123:15 210:1

66 120:14

183:17

7

7 70:8 99:2

110:13 151:7

153:19

169:18

7-and-a-half

114:3

7-ton 136:14

7.5 159:14

70 32:21 34:12

70/30 34:13

721 168:5

75 86:22

147:22

151:21

189:12

77 200:8

8

8 62:7 100:2

110:13

8:00 9:10,11

9:19 10:10

244:2

80 11:8 18:18

19:20 23:3

24:5,12 25:7

25:11 27:8

27:12 29:20

30:4 33:7

35:9 36:22

38:7 46:22

59:14 69:14

75:2 85:18

95:12,15

96:10 100:2

145:2,2

163:7,8

164:22

210:12

80/20 163:7

80/90 120:18

123:19

80s 61:8

81 11:9 18:19

19:20 23:3

24:1,12 25:8

25:20 27:8

29:20 30:5

32:22 33:8,9

33:10,16

34:12 36:11

36:22 38:7,9

46:4,5 48:14

49:8 59:8,14

59:14 69:8

69:10 70:1,2

70:4,13,15

70:16 75:2,6

81s 35:8

82 12:7,10

18:10,18,22

19:7,12,19

20:1,18 21:4

25:19,21

26:19 27:11

27:13 29:20

33:1 34:11

35:7 44:10

46:5 48:14

49:3,8 59:14

65:6,10,12

66:19 69:7

69:16 70:11

71:12,12

72:11,13

75:2

83 27:11,13

84 27:11

850 55:2 67:5

850,000 55:3

86 83:5

89.9 86:16

8C 126:20

9

9 32:11,22

96:9

9:00 1:9 9:4,4

10:9

90 210:12

90.1 60:7 97:3

97:6,15 98:3

98:16,17

99:12 204:16

90.11 204:13

92 11:11 49:3

49:9 59:4

95 31:19 81:5

84:15 189:4

99 84:16