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94–054 PDF 2015

FROM HEALTH CARE ENROLLMENT TO TAX 

FILING: A PPACA UPDATE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE, 

BENEFITS AND ADMINISTRATIVE RULES 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

FEBRUARY 26, 2015 

Serial No. 114–6 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MARK WALKER, North Carolina 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

JODY B. HICE, Georgia 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia 

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 

WILL HURD, Texas 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

TED LIEU, California 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 

MARK DeSAULNIER, California 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

SEAN MCLAUGHLIN, Staff Director 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 
(III) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE, BENEFITS & ADMINISTRATIVE RULES

JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chairman 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina, Vice 

Chair 

MARK WALKER, North Carolina 

JODY B, HICE, Georgia 

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania, 

Ranking Member 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Distict of 

Columbia 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

MARK DESAULNIER, California 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

Vacancy 

Sean Hayes, Staff Director 

Sarah Vance, Clerk 

(V) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on February 26, 2015 ....................................................................... 1 

WITNESS 

Mr. Kevin Counihan, Director and Marketplace Chief Executive Officer, Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 4 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 6 

(1) 

FROM HEALTH CARE ENROLLMENT TO TAX 

FILING: A PPACA UPDATE 

Thursday, February 26, 2015, 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE, BENEFITS, AND

ADMINISTRATIVE RULES, COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 

2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jim Jordan (chairman 

of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Jordan, DesJarlais, Meadows, 

DeSantis, Mulvaney, Walker, Hice, Carter, Cartwright, and 

DeSaulnier. 

Also present: Representatives Cummings, Connolly, and Lujan 

Grisham. 

Mr. JORDAN. The subcommittee will come to order. 

We are pleased to have Mr. Counihan here today, who is the Director and CEO of Marketplace and Exchanges. We are glad to 

have you here, but we are disappointed that much of the information that the committee has been requesting, primarily through 

Congressman Meadows office, has yet to be provided to the committee. So, Mr. Counihan, you are going to get some questions 

about that. 

Beginning on December 8th of last year, Chairman Meadows 

staff started requesting detailed information on Obama Care enrollment. The Administration’s response to this basic data request 

has been nothing short of ridiculous. 

We met with Mr. Counihan on January 9th. He told us repeatedly that he wanted to make sure we got the information we requested. Of course, it is not a surprise that last night the Administration came out with another enrollment update. So we hope the 

witness today answers some basic questions, like how many people 

were automatically enrolled in their health care plan; how many 

Americans actively use the health care law and how many are now 

passive participants in what the law forces them to do; how many 

of them were automatically enrolled in another plan; and a host of 

other questions we hope to get answered. 

Of those who automatically enrolled, did CMS place people in 

new plans if their old plans were no longer available? Who made 

that decision? How was the new plan chosen? Was any analysis 

done of whether these new plans had different benefits? Was any 

analysis done of whether an individual would need to see a different doctor? 
2 

We are still seeing problems with Healthcare.gov. Last week the 

Administration announced the Website had generated 800,000 incorrect information to Americans, and obviously that will impact 

their tax status. That is nearly 10 percent of the people who used 

Healthcare.gov received incorrect data and incorrect information. 

And for the 50,000 people who already filed their taxes, the IRS 

just said last week, don t worry about it. This is outrageous considering how often the IRS has bemoaned their budget and inability 

to collect tax dollars. 

Finally, since the President’s immigration announcement, we 

have learned that illegal immigrants can now potentially obtain tax 

refunds they are not entitled to, and maybe even potentially participate in our election process. 

So those are the questions, too, we want to ask Mr. Counihan 

today. So we view this as an important hearing. We are pleased to 

have you here and we are hopeful you will answer some of the 

questions that we have been trying to get answers to for now over 

3 months. 

With that, I would yield to the ranking member, the gentleman 

from Pennsylvania, for an opening Statement, and then we will get 

right to Mr. Counihan s testimony. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding today s 

hearing. 

I would like to welcome our witness today, Mr. Counihan. I 

thank you for appearing before our subcommittee. 

There is good news and bad news about the ACA. I know my colleagues are adept at sharing all the bad news about the ACA, but 

I want to highlight some of the good news, if I may. 

The 2015 open enrollment period was a success, with a record 

11.4 million Americans selecting marketplace plans or automatically re-enrolling in quality affordable coverage as of February 15. 

In my home State of Pennsylvania, 471,930 people selected a plan 

or were automatically re-enrolled by the end of the most recent 

open enrollment period. 

These strong open enrollment numbers, both across the Country 

and in my home State, show that the ACA seems to be working 

and continues to benefit millions of Americans. Insurance companies are joining the marketplace in significant numbers, offering 

greater plan choice to consumers. There are over 25 percent more 

insurers participating in the marketplace in 2015 than there were 

in 2014. Ninety-one percent of consumers can now choose to purchase plans from three or more insurers, up from 74 percent in 

2014. And consumers are able to pick from an average of 40 health 

plans for 2015 coverage. 

I also want to say the ACA appears to be helping to reduce premium cost increases in the individual market. In 2015, premiums 

for the benchmark, or, that is, the second lowest cost, Silver plan, 

will increase by only 2 percent, of course, far below the historic 

trend of double digit premium increases that we all endured 

throughout the last 15 years or so. 

Since ACA open enrollment started in 2013, Medicaid and the 

Children’s Health Insurance Program enrollment has increased by 

10.1 million. The ACA has also reduced the number of uninsured 

people across our Country. Because of this law, we have seen the 
3 

largest decline in the uninsured rate since the early 1970’s, and 

people who care about keeping hospitals open in your communities 

will want to note that. The lower the rate of uninsured, the 

healthier our hospitals will be. 

According to the CBO, the Congressional Budget Office, the combined effect of the ACA coverage expansions has been to extend 

coverage to 12 million previously uninsured in 2014. In 2015, CBO 

estimates that 19 million uninsured Americans will be covered. 

Thanks to the ACA, millions of young adults, many of whom might 

have otherwise been uninsured, have been able to stay on their 

parents health plan, 129 million Americans with pre-existing conditions can no longer be denied coverage or charged higher premiums, and more than 100 million individuals no longer have an 

annual or life-time limit on their coverage, providing the kind of 

peace of mind that they will not go bankrupt if diagnosed with cancer or some other kind of serious illness. 

On February 20, CMS announced an additional special enrollment period, from March 15, 2015 through April 30, 2015, for taxpayers affected by the individual shared responsibility payment. I 

am pleased that CMS is taking additional steps to help those individuals who were unaware of the penalty for not having coverage. 

Now, earlier this month, House Republicans voted for the fiftysixth time to repeal or weaken the ACA. But they have yet to offer 

concrete legislation that would serve as an alternative to the consumer protections and cost savings reforms that the law has already brought to millions of Americans. 

The evidence is clear. The ACA is improving the lives of Americans nationwide as a whole, including the constituents of all of the 

members of this subcommittee who are already receiving important 

benefits under the law. It is time for us all to stop these constant 

attacks and focus instead on working together more effectively and 

efficiently to implement this new American law. 

I thank the chairman again and look forward to this hearing and 

our witness’s testimony. 

Mr. JORDAN. I thank the gentleman from Pennsylvania. I would 

just point out that they are not attacks, it is facts. Eight hundred 

thousand people got notices that were inaccurate. People are being 

automatically re-enrolled in plans that they didn’t opt into and may 

be different from the ones that currently exist. And that is the information we are trying to get at. It would be nice if we had some 

cooperation from Mr. Counihan and his folks. 

Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at 

any time, and we will hold open for five legislative days the record 

for any members who would like to submit a written Statement. 

I am pleased to welcome our witness today, Mr. Kevin Counihan, 

who is the Director of Marketplace, Chief Executive Officer of the 

Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight, the 

Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services. 

Pursuant to all rules, we swear in our witnesses, so if you would 

please stand, Mr. Counihan, raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will 

be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 

you, God? 

[Witness responds in the affirmative.] 
4 

Mr. JORDAN. Let the record show that the witness answered in 

the affirmative. 

With that, you are recognized for 5 minutes. We have your written Statement, so every member has that, Mr. Counihan, but you 

have 5 minutes now for an oral Statement, then we will get right 

to questions. So the floor is yours. 

WITNESS STATEMENT 

STATEMENT OF KEVIN COUNIHAN 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Good morning, Chairman Jordan, Ranking Member Cartwright, and members of the committee. It is an honor to 

appear here today to answer your questions about CMSs continuing efforts to provide affordable, high-quality health care to the 

Americans we serve. 

I joined CMS last September as CEO of the Health Insurance 

Marketplace after 30 years of experience in the health care industry. I worked in senior roles at three private health insurance companies. I was president of a health insurance exchange and most 

recently was CEO of AccessHealthCT, the State of Connecticut s 

health insurance exchange. 

I am pleased that the Affordable Care Act is making a real difference in the lives of consumers. Since the open enrollment period 

began last year, November 15th through February 15th, about 11.4 

million Americans selected a plan or were automatically re-enrolled 

in States using Healthcare.gov or through State Marketplaces. 

Yesterday we provided updated data on plan selections in States 

using the Federal facilitated Marketplace which shows that approximately 8.84 million consumers who selected a plan or who 

were automatically re-enrolled through the Healthcare.gov platform. The number of uninsured in the United States fell by an estimated 10 million since the start of open enrollment in 2013. The 

Nation’s uninsured rate is now at or near the lowest level recorded 

in five decades of data. 

CMS is constantly working to increase value to consumers by 

providing more affordable choices and improving the customer experience. We added 25 percent more issuers participating in the 

Marketplace in 2015; provided consumers with an average of 40 

health plans to choose from, up from 30 last year. About 8 in 10 

consumers in the 37 States using Healthcare.gov received, on average, a $268 monthly tax credit. 

Over the last several years, CMS has been working with the IRS 

to plan for tax season and to provide outreach and education on the 

new tax filing requirements to individuals and tax filing preparers. 

About three-quarters of tax filers simply need to check a box to 

show that they had health coverage for all of 2014. The remaining 

taxpayers will need to take different steps, like claiming an exemption if they could not afford insurance, or paying a fee if they could 

but chose not to get covered. 

Those with the Marketplace coverage are receiving new forms in 

the mail from the Marketplace, Form 1095-A, used to reconcile 

their up-front financial assistance. This is the first time Americans 

will be working through this new process, and we are prepared for 
5 

the inevitable challenges. While the vast majority of consumers received correct 1095-A forms, some received a form that contained 

an incorrect calculation. This affects less than 1 percent of all tax 

filers and is being fixed so that, beginning next week, those consumers can access a new tax form. We conducted a robust outreach 

effort to give consumers information needed. 

The Administration is committed to providing the information 

and tools tax filers need to understand the new requirements. Individuals who cannot afford coverage or who meet other conditions 

may receive an exemption from the shared responsibility payment. 

We recently launched a tool on Healthcare.gov to help consumers 

who did not have insurance last year determine if they qualified for 

an exemption. This tool will help consumers determine which exemptions they may be eligible for and how to apply for exemptions, 

whether through the Marketplace or through their tax return. 

CMS is also providing a special enrollment period in States 

which use the federally facilitated Marketplace for individuals and 

families who did not have health coverage in 2014 and are subject 

to the fee when they file their 2014 taxes. The special enrollment 

period for March 15th to April 30th will allow individuals and families to buy coverage through the Marketplace. 

As I mentioned, having been involved in both the State exchange 

and private exchanges prior to coming to Washington, I have seen 

how powerful the private sector companies can be in competing for 

consumers business. I have learned from my experiences that communication and collaboration is key. If anyone has suggestions on 

how to improve our systems and our programs, I would appreciate 

hearing from you personally, and I look forward to working with 

you. 

We are proud of what we have accomplished so far and the difference the high-quality, affordable health care coverage is making 

in the lives of people throughout the Country. Thank you for your 

time, and I look forward to your questions. 

[Prepared Statement of Mr. Counihan follows:] 
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13 
14 
15 
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Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. 

The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Meadows, is recognized 

for 5 minutes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you for your opening Statement. You are gifted with your 

words. I guess my concern, and you know that I have a concern, 

and I am going to share this with the ranking member, Mr. Cartwright, because even though we are on different sides of the aisle, 

we believe that this should not be political. Indeed, I met with you 

personally, told you I didn’t want it to be political; I wanted to get 

the information. 

So I guess my question is why do we still not have the information we requested after 23 emails, seven phone calls, one personal 

meeting, countless other indirect contacts that we have had, two 

text messages? I have been reaching out for over 70 days. And it 

is real simple: we haven’t gotten the information that you have 

had. So you have been working through the information, so you 

have not had the re-enrollment numbers in order to comply, is that 

correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is correct. I will wait until you are done. 

Mr. MEADOWS. No, that is the question. You are under oath. So 

you have not had the re-enrollment numbers that I have requested 

multiple times? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What is critical, Congressman, is that the information that we provide you, or anyone on this committee, be accurate, be verified, be validated, and make sure that it is correct before submitting to you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So is it your testimony here today that you have 

not had those numbers until today? Or yesterday. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. You and I spoke yesterday and I gave 

you numbers over the phone, and that is correct. We have numbers, but they are not verified, fully validated, fully vetted that I 

would give to you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, why would you not give me numbers, as I 

have requested them 23 times? Why would you not give me numbers? Because then I made a simple request. I said just send me 

the batch information. I had to go through and dig through this 

and just ask for the batch information that you were giving to 

other insurance companies. Why did you not give me that? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Can I respond? I feel a personal accountability in 

responding to you. I think you know that; you and I have talked. 

I am committing to giving you information that—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Why do we have to have a hearing in order for 

me to get a phone call the day before to get partial, it is not even 

all the information; I only got a little bit of it. So why would we 

have to wait that long? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, as I said, I am very committed to 

getting the information, but it has to be accurate. It has to be tested. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right, so let me ask you this. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It has to be one that stands up because, if it is 

not, that creates a different problem. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right, so let me ask you a more difficult question, then. If indeed you were afraid to give me those numbers be-
17 

cause you indeed say you didn’t have them, and that you were 

verifying the numbers and that you were concerned that they were 

not accurate, did you give re-enrollment numbers to anybody else 

outside of CMS? And be careful, because you are under oath. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I understand that. What I am committing to you, 

Congressman, is that any information that I give you to a request—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. That is not my question. 

Mr. COUNIHAN [continuing]. Is verified and validated. 

Mr. MEADOWS. That may be a good answer to a question I didn’t 

ask. Did you provide it to anybody outside of CMS? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am giving you information, Congressman, that 

is verified and validated. I have enormous respect for you. I understand your goals and I appreciate what you are trying to do. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So yes or no? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am telling you, Congressman, that no information I am giving to you is not going to be fully vetted and fully 

verified. 

Mr. MEADOWS. That is not my question. Are you going to answer 

the question? Did you give it to anybody outside of CMS? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am repeating my answer, Congressman, with 

deepest respect. I am giving you information when it is verified and 

fully validated. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right, well, let me finish it. I have information 

that would suggest that you gave it to other people out of CMS. 

Yes or no, is that accurate? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I am not familiar with the information that you may have, but—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Did you not send re-enrollment numbers, did you 

not send re-enrollment numbers to health care providers on December 18th? Did you not send that to them? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I have to go back and check correspondence from December 18th. I do not have recollection about 

that. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. Did you give re-enrollment numbers to 

the White House? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I have to go back and check this. 

I am not—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. You know what, Mr. Counihan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am not familiar with this. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Let me just tell you, and I will conclude with this 

Statement, I guess. Either CMS intentionally gave misleading information to insurers, insurance companies across the Country on 

December 18th or you lied to me and said that you didn’t have it. 

Which is it? Either you intentionally misled them, because they got 

it, or you lied to me. Which is it? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I have to check the facts of what 

you are alleging. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, you have counsel behind you. She shows up 

at every one of these meetings. Ask her to check on it while you 

are here and we would love to hear your answer. 

I yield back. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman—OK. 

Mr. MULVANEY [presiding]. The gentleman s time is expired. 
18 

Now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania for 5 minutes, 

the ranking member. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Well, Mr. Counihan, I want to say, at the outset, that Mr. Meadows and I agree on a great many things here in the U.S. House 

of Representatives, and one of them is that we want transparency 

and accountability in the Government; that is why we have put in 

to serve on this here committee, because this is a committee that 

is charged with the responsibility of ferreting out problems in the 

Government. And we want to see that when somebody on the committee, particularly Mr. Meadows, when he calls you, you call back. 

Has that been happening; when he calls you, do you call back? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I believe it has been happening. We had a conversation yesterday as a followup to a conversation that we have 

been having since December. I value Congressman Meadows quite 

a bit. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And I want to also say for the record if Mr. 

Meadows is having a hard time getting ahold of you, I want him 

to call me and I will help him get ahold of you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Would the gentleman yield? 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. I certainly will. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I would be glad to give you a timeline. We will 

share it with you and I will let you make your own decision on 

whether he has been responsive or not. I sent him a text message 

the last time and said if he is not going to be willing to provide 

us with the numbers, there is no sense going through that. But, 

Mr. Cartwright, I trust you and I will give you the timeline. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you. Reclaiming my time. 

I think that it would make sense for Mr. Meadows and me to 

work together to make sure you are being fully transparent and accountable, Mr. Counihan. 

There was a comment, though, that was made about it took a 

hearing to be scheduled before you would make a phone call. I just 

want to make it clear. Were you subpoenaed to come to today s 

hearing or did you come voluntarily, of your own will, Mr. 

Counihan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I came voluntarily. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. All right. And forgive me if I misState this, but 

it seems to me that, when we are talking about numbers and talking about testimony under oath, as you are, you understand you 

are under oath today, right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And you have understood that very plainly 

that, when you come to our committee, you are going to be under 

oath, so we are going to expect exactitude in the numbers that we 

get from you. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Is that one of the concerns that has been driving your reticence about sharing particular numbers, that you want 

to make sure they are exact and precise when you testify to them 

under oath? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. All right. Now, I want to visit this question 

about the erroneous tax information that was sent out, because 
19 

that is a concern of mine as well. The agency has sent erroneous 

tax information to roughly 800,000 tax filers who receive coverage 

through the federally facilitated Marketplace in 2014. It is my understanding that these tax filers received erroneous 1095-A forms. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And these are the people that you said constituted less than 1 percent of the filers? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. OK. How did it happen? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You know, to the best of our understanding so 

far, and we are still doing research into this, it appears that there 

was an unfavorable interaction between two pieces of software 

code, and upon identifying that we began our fix. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. OK. So those of us that have employer-sponsored coverage or government coverage such as Medicare or Medicaid are not affected by this. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. And would you take this moment, Mr. 

Counihan to explain to us now what the agency is doing to alert 

tax filers who received the erroneous 1095-A forms about what 

they need to do to proceed with filing their tax returns? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We are doing quite a bit. We take the issue of 

the disruption caused by these incorrect forms very, very seriously, 

and it wouldn’t matter whether it were one tax filer or 820,000. We 

jumped on this issue very fast to uncover it. We have created new 

tools on our Website, Healthcare.gov, that help people both understand whether they were impacted by it, how to calculate the correct benchmark plan, that second lowest cost, Silver. We have 

trained our call center representatives to take calls from recipients 

so that they can get the answers that they need. We have made 

robocalls out, we have sent letters, we have sent emails. We have 

had a broad-based communication effort. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. OK. Well, Mr. Counihan, I want to express, before I yield my time, I am disappointed that the agency made this 

kind of mistake at such a critical time. This is an unforced error 

that provides fodder for those who want to tear down the ACA. But 

I want to remind my colleagues that it doesn’t detract from the fact 

that millions of Americans now do have access to life-saving 

healthcare coverage that they did not previously have. 

With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I thank the gentleman. 

We now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. 

DesJarlais. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Good morning, Mr. Counihan. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Morning. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. It is good to have somebody here that is concerned about exact and precise numbers, because we have had a lot 

of trouble getting accurate numbers when it comes to the Affordable Healthcare Act. You gave a pretty resounding, rosy testimony 

in terms of how the healthcare law is working, but it doesn’t seem 

to coincide with a lot of the people that I hear from, so I was hoping you could help clear up some numbers. 
20 

You had indicated that the uninsured rate is at the lowest point 

in the recorded history of the Country, is that correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I said that the uninsured level has dropped significantly. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. I think you followed with saying that it was the 

lowest that had been recorded, and I was wondering how you came 

to that number. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Just to be precise, sir, what I said was the uninsured rate is now at or near the lowest level recorded across five 

decades of data. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, so pretty good. How did you get that data? 

Where did it come from? How many people are insured in this 

Country, what do we have, 310, 330 million people? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. About 330 million people. To be frank with you, 

sir, I need to get back to you with that. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. How many people were uninsured when 

this law first came into effect, when they were selling it to the 

American people? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I need to do the same. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Well, I mean, roughly. You don t have to be precise. The President was throwing out numbers, 30 million, 40 million were uninsured. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You know, sir, I am not trying to be difficult. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Did you prepare at all for this hearing? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. I listened to your answers to Mr. Meadows, and 

it just astounds me that you can’t remember whether or not you 

gave information to CMS or to the White House. That is your testimony, that you just don’t remember? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No, it is not. What I simply want to say is that 

you have asked me a question that has to do with data. I respect 

that question. I would like to respond with a precise answer. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. If people don’t sign up for the healthcare 

law, they are going to pay a tax penalty here soon, right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Only if they do not qualify for an exemption. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. So it is kind of hard to get the number of uninsured until we see how many people have to pay a penalty, because 

we have heard the President said 30 or 40 million people were uninsured in this Country; now you are saying 10 or 11 million have 

insurance. And we have 330 million people, but, yet, is it your testimony that about 90 percent of the people who have signed up are 

getting subsidies? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I would say based on our enrollment is 

roughly 87 percent of people that enroll in the Marketplace—— 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, so roughly 9 out of 10 are getting subsidies. 

And we have 330 million people. You can’t tell me how many had 

insurance and how many don’t have insurance, but you are saying 

we have the lowest insurance rate. So you are not really helping 

me with your exact and precise numbers. But what we are seeing 

is people paying about two to 4,000 more for premiums, paying 

much higher deductibles. And yet the President promised most people’s premiums would drop 2500. So it is clear at this point we 

were sold a bill of goods. Do you agree with that? 
21 

Mr. COUNIHAN. With deep respect, I do not agree with that, and 

the reason I don’t is because I have been doing this between States 

and now here in this job for almost 9 years, and I have seen the 

impact of people getting access to coverage that is more affordable 

for them, that—— 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Well, you and I are talking to different people, 

but let’s move on. Let’s talk about some more exact and precise 

numbers. This month, HHS announced that you will terminate coverage for individuals who signed up in 2014 who have been unable 

to verify their citizen status, so that is about 200,000 individuals, 

right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It appears that number is going to be less than 

that. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. We have numbers that show up to 312,000 

individuals should not be receiving coverage, so that is not correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I would appreciate the opportunity 

to come back to you with precise numbers on all these questions. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. It sounds like you are going to have to come 

back, because you are certainly not ready today. First of all, how 

do these people sign up, what data do they need? Do they need a 

driver’s license, a Social Security card? How can they sign up for 

healthcare if they are getting it illegally? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. So an individual attests on their application to 

specific amounts of parts of information. We check that information 

against electronic data sources to verify its validity. There can be 

situations where that data is going to match; there will be situations where that data does not match. When the data does not 

match the verified sources, the trusted sources, it is up to that individual to provide the evidence that supports that they are legally 

eligible for coverage. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. So how do we get this money back? And let me 

ask a second question. With the President s executive order, with 

four to five million new people gaining access to Social Security 

cards and driver’s licenses, probably the very information that it 

takes to get this healthcare coverage, how are you going to prevent 

that and how are you going to get that money back? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I think the point is that we take 

self attestations, we verify them against proper data sources to 

make sure that they are accurate. If they are not verified, the applicant is required to provide proof, that in fact, it is true. If the 

proof is provided, they may maintain their coverage and the appropriate subsidies and such; if the proof is not provided—— 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Bottom line is this law wasn’t ready and it is 

never going to be ready. 

I yield back. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I thank the gentleman. 

We now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from 

Maryland, Mr. Cummings, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Counihan, we are very pleased to have you here. Despite 

strong evidence to the contrary, Republicans continue to claim that 

the Affordable Care Act is causing an increase in healthcare costs. 

However, multiple reports show that the growth of healthcare 

spending in the United States, in fact, slowing to historically low 
22 

levels. Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, we have seen the slowest 

growth in healthcare prices in nearly 50 years, and Congressional 

Budget Office estimates show that the ACA will reduce the deficit 

by about $100 billion over its first 10 years and a total of $1.7 trillion over the first two decades. 

When we look at the benefits of it, of course, there are a lot of 

people who are staying well because they now have access to insurance and, therefore, medical care. There are people who have preexisting conditions that are now able to get treatment. So there are 

a lot of benefits to this very important law. 

In December 2014, Mr. Counihan, the Centers for Medicare and 

Medicaid Services issued its national health expenditures report. 

Are you familiar with that report, sir? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I have heard of it. I am not familiar with the details of it. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Well, maybe some of this will be familiar to you. 

The report found that national health spending grew by just 3.6 

percent in 2013, the lowest rate of growth since 1960. This is down 

from 4.1 percent growth in 2012. In your opinion, what factors are 

driving these low rates? The low rate of growth, that is. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I would have to understand the report better before I responded. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. OK. Are the Affordable Care Act’s payment and 

delivery reforms, do you think that has been part of the explanation? I know you have to get back to me, but do you think that 

would be a part of it? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I do. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. I want to go back to some questions that were 

asked of you earlier about certain data that you were questioned 

about whether you had released that data to the White House and 

then I think you were also asked about insurance companies. It 

sounds like you wanted to make sure, as far as the committee is 

concerned, that the data was properly vetted. And I agree with the 

ranking member and chairman of the subcommittee that we do 

have to get accurate information. 

I guess, as I listened to you, I just have one question. If the information was released to others, is it done with a caveat? How does 

that work? And I know you said you need to get back to us, but 

I am just trying to figure out. I can understand definitely you making sure you deliver very accurate and up-to-date information to 

this committee, because, man, if you don’t, next thing you know, 

you have big problems. But the question becomes are there circumstances where information is released to others? Is there a caveat if that happens? Or does it happen? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I have to look at the information that was 

provided that Congressman Meadows referred to this December 

18th. I am not familiar with that report. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. OK. So I am talking about just general information. In your experience, do you ever release information with a caveat, that this is not accurate, it still has to be vetted? I think that 

is a pretty reasonable question. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It is a reasonable question, and the answer to 

that question is that, depending on the circumstance involved, 

there may be internal information that is shared, but at all times, 
23 

when we would ever release information to you, to Congressman 

Meadows, to this committee, we would not do anything without 

having that information checked, triple checked, fully, fully 

verified. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. So, again, do you ever release raw data without 

vetting to anybody else? Does that happen? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have released on a weekly basis a snapshot 

report of how we do in our open enrollment period. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. OK. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I assume this committee has received that. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. OK. And so that data is not vetted, is that right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No, that data is vetted. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. All right. I see my time has expired. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Thank the gentleman. 

We need to take care of a housekeeping matter here. We have 

a new member to the full committee, Ms. Lujan Grisham from New 

Mexico. I ask, even though she is not part of the subcommittee, 

that she be permitted to participate today fully in this subcommittee. Without objection. 

At this point, recognize for 5 minutes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Hice. 

Mr. HICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Counihan, does your office obtain any supplemental funding 

from other areas within HHS or CMS? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I am not sure of the answer to that question. 

I need to respond back to you on that. 

Mr. HICE. So you are not aware if there are any supplemental 

funds at all. Have you ever made a request for supplemental funding? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I have to get back to you with answers 

around supplemental funds. 

Mr. HICE. Do you know if you have ever made a request for supplemental funding? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, it is not coming to mind that I have made 

a request for supplemental funds, but I don’t want to say anything 

that may not be true, so I please need to get back to you. 

Mr. HICE. Sir, we are providing you with information that HHS 

provided us regarding transfers that were made last year, some 

$109 million that was transferred into program management to ensure that the CMS had operations of the Marketplace to support 

what they are doing. Are you aware that this money was transferred to help Marketplace operations? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I arrived in September of last year. I don’t 

know the date or timing of when those requests or allocations may 

have been made. This was before my time. 

Mr. HICE. Sir, I understand that, but you are the CEO. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. My suspicion is it was before my time. 

Mr. HICE. OK. This is your area of responsibility. So you are not 

aware at all of where $109 million supplemental funding came 

from? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am not aware of that specific supplemental 

funding you have just referred to. 

Mr. HICE. Well, let me ask you this way. Do you believe that it 

is appropriate for Healthcare.gov to receive money from the CDC? 
24 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I need to—— 

Mr. HICE. Well, it is there in front of you, provided by your own 

staff to us that that took place. Do you believe it is appropriate for 

money to come from NIH for Healthcare.gov? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The issue of supplemental funds, Congressman, 

is unfamiliar to me, and I would need to respond back to you 

upon—— 

Mr. HICE. Well, sir, would you believe that it should not be a 

strange subject to you, seeing that this is the area that you are responsible for? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I accept full responsibility for my offices and for 

the exchange. I am just unfamiliar with this issue of supplemental 

funding that you are referring to. 

Mr. HICE. All right, sir. Are you familiar with Form 8962? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. With that tax form? 

Mr. HICE. With the tax form, yes, sir. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes, I am. 

Mr. HICE. OK. CBS News referred to this as a mind-boggling 

form. Were you in any way responsible or helpful, if we can put it 

that way, to the IRS for this form and the information? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The creation of IRS forms is not in my bailiwick. 

Mr. HICE. But, according to your testimony, you work closely 

with the IRS to provide information they needed to develop some 

of these forms, is that correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Our offices are collaborative with a number of 

Federal agencies. We were not, to my knowledge, involved in the 

design of Form 8962. 

Mr. HICE. Well, sir, you are familiar with the form, though. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes, I am. 

Mr. HICE. The premium tax credit form. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes, I am. 

Mr. HICE. Do you have a copy of it there? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes, I do. 

Mr. HICE. OK. Just a simple observation of this thing. This is 

two pages, over 90 questions just on one page alone, looking at 

this, sir. Let me ask you. Just looking at that form, is this something that you believe, as a CEO here, that you could fill out yourself, without some assistance? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. This form, Congressman, is not a form that my 

office created; it is an IRS form. I know that there are directions 

for the form. We provide tools on Healthcare.gov to also assist in 

the completion and the use of the benchmark plan information that 

is used to complete that form. The 1095-A form provides the information needed to complete that. 

Mr. HICE. So you are saying you have nothing to do with this 

form. It certainly is not a simple form for an American to fill out, 

but it is necessary if they had any break during the year. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I said, Congressman, not involved in creating 

IRS or Treasury forms. 

Mr. HICE. OK. The Associated Press said that consumer information has been shared with other companies; the people put in information with Healthcare.gov, that information has been shared with 

other companies. Are you aware of that information being shared? 
25 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have shared no names, addresses, Social Security numbers, any personal information with any third parties. 

Mr. HICE. You have not. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have not. 

Mr. HICE. OK. Well, the report is otherwise. Is it appropriate for 

information to be shared? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I will confirm. We have not shared any names, 

addresses, Social Security numbers, or any personal information. 

We will not do so, we have not done so, and we will not do so. 

Mr. HICE. I yield. Thank you. 

Mr. MULVANEY. The gentleman s time has expired. 

We now recognize the gentlewoman from New Mexico, Ms. Lujan 

Grisham, for 5 minutes. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

In New Mexico, where we have some of the most challenging uninsured and access issues in the Country, the number of individuals uninsured has dropped by about 25 percent, and it is one of 

the largest drops of any State in the Country, and it is making a 

powerful difference in making sure that the health status of a poorer State is on its way to improving, and we want to continue to 

build on that progress. 

Notwithstanding, it concerns me greatly, and I know that you 

are hearing that from all of my colleagues today, that CMS sent 

approximately 800,000 inaccurate tax forms to individuals who 

signed up for coverage. I also understand that this is a very large, 

complicated program, and I understand also, and you have reStated it today, that the majority of the tax forms that were sent 

out inaccurate. But we want to make sure that we are also highlighting that tons of information has also gotten out that has been 

incredibly accurate and has provided the right avenue for folks to 

sign up for coverage and get the subsidies and related issues that 

caused them to not only be covered, but stay covered. 

We have had several hearings, and I am going to kind of segue 

now into the focus of my question, on HHS’s efforts and CMSs efforts to make sure that we are addressing the security of this information and the processes are sound, and that we have done a million—I hope that that is not an exaggeration, probably is—but that 

we are really sufficiently addressing the cybersecurity issues significantly. 

So it is clear to me that that is happening. What is not clear to 

me, given this mistake, is CMS using, specifically, the same continuous monitoring that HHS is using to test the Website, and do you 

feel that CMS has those tests and those data points to detect your 

vulnerabilities? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congresswoman, please, just to make sure that 

I understand, this is an issue related to security and perhaps 

cybersecurity risks? 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. Be broad. I use that as an example. Including the cybersecurity, including privacy, including protection, and 

making sure that it is fully integrated, and making sure that 

States integrate one-stop shopping and make sure that their data 

points are all integrated. 
26 

We know that HHS has done incredible testing. Is CMS using 

those same mechanisms to test the accuracy of your data on your 

Websites? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I can speak to the Website. I can speak to the 

area that I oversee. What I would tell you is the following. One is 

that the security of our Website is among our absolute highest priorities. No. 2 is that we use the same type of tools and protections 

used in the most secure industries in the private sector. No. 3 is 

that we conduct continuous monitoring using multi-layer professional security team to mitigate any potential types of risks. And 

we are fully committed to maintaining the security. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. Given this mistake, can you point to specifically the safeguards in place, notwithstanding the mistake, that 

should have caught this mistake? Because my next question, as you 

answer, maybe you can dp both at the same time, is what are you 

doing right now to correct this problem so that we don’t have future mistakes of this nature in this regard or any other regard? 

And I recognize that no system is full-proof, but what I do expect 

is that there is this continuous monitoring, you identify the problem, and that you can assure this committee that it is addressed. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. I appreciate the question. No. 1 is I think 

I outlined the issue with respect to the interaction between these 

two pieces of software code. We are still digging deeper to understand the root cause, but we believe we have a fairly good sense 

of how it is going. 

I think what is critical, to your point, Congresswoman, is that we 

have a structure and a process in place that once an issue is identified, that we can understand it, remediate it, fix it, develop a customer support focus to aid customers, and then have a broad outreach program to show customers how to react. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. And I appreciate your answer very much, 

and I realize that I am interrupting you. I only have 20 seconds 

left. I am going to ask that you be much more specific, and I am 

going to ask that you do that in writing and provide those specifics 

that you have been asked by my colleagues to get data back to this 

committee so it is clear to us what that means in very concrete, 

substantive context so that we can support you to assure that you 

have the tools and resources to prevent these mistakes and to mitigate. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I thank the gentlelady and I will now recognize 

the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Walker, for his 5 minutes. 

Mr. WALKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Counihan, thank you for coming out today. This hearing is 

morphing into more or less about enrollment numbers than it is 

about transparency. You talked about the pre-September, maybe 

not responsible for all the things that happened there, so let’s talk 

about post-September, if we could, for just a few minutes. 

In fact, this week, H&R Block announced that 52 percent who 

enrolled in insurance via the State or the Federal Marketplaces are 

paying back a portion of their advanced premium tax credit. We 

have the world’s largest tax preparer that for more than half of the 

enrollees, ObamaCare is costing more than they were told at first. 

My question is how do you account for this mishap? 
27 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, our enrollment process relies on 

eligibility and income information provided by an applicant. That 

eligibility information and income information is then validated 

with the appropriate sources to make sure that it is true. As we 

all know, income can sometimes fluctuate. 

Mr. WALKER. So this was the enrollee’s fault; had nothing to do 

with your department? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am saying that income can fluctuate. If the enrollment information and eligibility information is not updated, 

sometimes an individual may be getting more tax credits or less 

tax credits than they would warrant. 

Mr. WALKER. Do you know what the average tax credit is, return? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It is $268 a month. 

Mr. WALKER. And H&R Block reported the average payback is 

$530. Would you say that is significant? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Again, sir, I think that having to pay back anything is significant. The $268 translates to roughly $3200 a year. 

Again, I think that with 87 percent of our enrollment receiving tax 

credits, it has made a profound difference in providing and accessing affordable care. 

Mr. WALKER. Thank you. We have hit already eight to ten different specific areas. Let me talk about a number that you might 

be able to provide. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate 

the department’s handling of these issues that we are talking about 

today? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I feel extremely proud and comfortable representing the way that we have handled our issues. 

Mr. WALKER. Eight? Nine? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. And the reason why is because we have created 

a process that identifies a problem, looks at root cause, fixes, provides customer support and outreach. And I say that because it is 

a repeatable process and it is the appropriate way to respond. 

Mr. WALKER. Sure. You spoke earlier about you are unable to 

give numbers out until they are fully vetted. I believe you used the 

word verifying. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. WALKER. Can you speak for a few seconds what is your vetting and verifying process? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. So we have a data analytics team that is dedicated to reviewing our data. They are in charge and accountable for 

ensuring that it is right, that it is tested, that it is appropriately 

validated and vetted, and they are accountable for that. 

Mr. WALKER. Once it is vetted, do they give those numbers to 

you, Mr. Counihan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. When the numbers are appropriately tested, 

verified, and validated, yes. 

Mr. WALKER. Who provides those numbers to you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The data analytics department. 

Mr. WALKER. And those numbers, since September, have you 

given those out to more than five or less than five? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am sorry, when you say five? 

Mr. WALKER. As far as the numbers, as far as these numbers 

that have been released, people that you have shared these num-
28 

bers with even though they are not complete, is it more than five 

groups, agencies, individuals, or less than five? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, as I said, it is critical for us that we don’t 

share any numbers that haven’t gone through this process. And 

what I have tried to communicate this morning is the urgency and 

the priority we place on making sure that the numbers that we 

give are accurate. 

Mr. WALKER. So up until today there have been no numbers 

shared pre-vetting or post-vetting until now. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The example that I would use, Congressman, is 

the weekly snapshots that we provide that are an update of our 

open enrollment progress is a good example of how that information gets verified and validated before it is released. 

Mr. WALKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Thank the gentleman. 

Now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. DeSaulnier, 

for 5 minutes. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Great job on the 

pronunciation. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Did I get that right? 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Yes. 

Well, thank you for being here today. 

And I must admit, Mr. Chairman, as a freshman from California, 

it is taking some use to assimilating some of the comments from 

other parts of the Country. While we have had challenges in California, generally, it has been positive. In my previous life, I chaired 

the budget subcommittee for Health and Human Services and 

worked closely with members of our exchange, both Republicans 

and Democrats. 

So, having said that, as a supporter of the ACA and believing 

that we have to recognize the size of the challenge that you are trying to implement, but also being consistent with all concerns by 

members on both sides, as a supporter, I want as few criticisms as 

possible within the range of this is huge domestic policy that is 

very complicated. 

So sort of to the last comments, within that context, without 

quantifying it, and in the spirit of I would really like to not see 

these kinds of things happen, and not have to defend them because 

I don’t think they are acceptable, where do you feel as if you have 

done enough corrective actions on the macro level so that we don’t 

see these kinds of things in the media and give the critics the opportunity to take on the whole program altogether? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The process of implementing the law requires 

significant amount of testing, and an example of that type of testing, whether it is stress testing, load testing, performance testing 

and such, was the relaunching of our Website this year. 

I think that it is probably well known that we had a few bumps 

or glitches in the first year of its rollout. In its second year we went 

out of our way to be very conscious about improving the customer 

experience. We have reduced the number of enrollment screens 

from 76 down to 16. We put new decision support tools in place 

that allowed people to select plan either by issuer, by deductible, 

by even being conscious of a healthcare condition, by premium. 
29 

We have a whole section, the learning section of our Website, 

that provides additional decision support tools to help people pick 

a plan. We offer 25 percent more issuers than we did the year before, which is providing more competition. We believe in the Marketplace; we believe in competition. We have seen, in fact, that it 

has driven the adding of more value to consumers that came back 

and shopped and compare. 

So all of which you have described is required as part of a testing 

process. Is testing always perfect? No. Can there be these instances 

which occurred here, where you have these two pieces of code that 

interact unfavorably? Yes. I think the point from our perspective 

is what do you do about it. And, from our perspective, we have put 

in a repeatable process of identification, remediation, tools, and 

communication. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. I believe in cost-benefits when they are done 

right, so you have the cost-benefit sort on the political side and the 

fiduciary side. We have talked a lot about the costs in this context. 

The benefits I want to talk about for a minute. 

So, according to the CBO, the ACA reduced the number of uninsured Americans by 12 million in 2014 and would bring down the 

uninsured rate by 19 million in 2015. CBO has also found that between 2016 and 2025 the ACA would reduce the number of uninsured by between 24 to 27 million Americans. Can you explain the 

impact reductions the uninsured rate have on uncompensated care 

costs and the price of premiums? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. To the States that I have worked in in particular, 

it has had significant results in impacting and lowering those costs. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Thanks. If you could give me, if you have any 

for the future, both on the testing and more specific, I know it is 

on a broad range of numbers that you could give me after the hearing at some point, that would be helpful. 

Since the ACA open enrollment started in 2013, an additional 

10.1 million Americans have been newly enrolled in Medicaid and 

the Children’s Health Insurance Program, CHIP. To date, 22 States 

have decided not to expand Medicaid to their residents. The question is if all 50 States expanded Medicaid, do you have an estimate 

of approximately how many more low-income Americans would 

gain access to affordable healthcare? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I don’t have a significant estimate 

that I would be confident enough sharing. I do know that, again, 

based on my experience, it would have a dramatic impact. 

Mr. DESAULNIER. Appreciate it. 

I yield back the remainder of my time, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Thank the gentleman. 

Now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Carter, for 5 

minutes. 

Mr. CARTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Counihan, thank you for being here. You testified earlier 

that you came here voluntarily. How long have you known that you 

were going to be coming here? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I think a couple of weeks, but I am not exactly 

sure. 

Mr. CARTER. Couple of weeks? Well, for someone who knew for 

a couple weeks they were going to be coming here, I hear a lot of 
30 

answers of I don’t know, I will have to get back to you. So I am 

not sure about the preparation for it, but I do appreciate you being 

here. 

I want to ask you, 800,000, 800,000 incorrect forms. Is that acceptable? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, having one incorrect form is not 

acceptable. 

Mr. CARTER. Well, there is a big difference between having one 

and having over 800,000. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I understand that. But I think the point is what 

do you do about it. And what I tried to communicate is the process 

put in place to identify, remediate, communicate, and move on. 

Mr. CARTER. OK. Well, what have you done? First of all, let’s 

back up. What happened? What was the typical error? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I mentioned earlier, the best of our understanding right now is there were two pieces of software code that 

interacted in what is called unfavorably, so it ended up replacing 

the 2014 benchmark price and putting in the 2015 benchmark price 

on those forms for the 820,000. It didn’t happen, obviously, for all 

of them, and it was a minority of the forms, but that is our best 

understanding. 

Mr. CARTER. OK. And when are you going to get it corrected? My 

daddy used to tell me, he used to say, son, that is why they put 

erasers on pencils. Well, you know, I hope you all have invested in 

an eraser factory because you are going to need a bunch, a whole 

bunch. When are you going to get them corrected? I don’t know 

about you, but April 15th I get knots in my stomach. Man, I am 

trying to get all this stuff together for the taxes and my wife, and 

it is not a good time. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I can relate to that; I have the same issue 

with my wife. The forms will be going out next week. 

Mr. CARTER. So you have it corrected? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The corrected forms are going out beginning next 

week. 

Mr. CARTER. Well, thank you. 

I want to shift gears real quick. King vs. Burwell. You are aware 

of that. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am. 

Mr. CARTER. You know that that is coming up, and I think we 

all have our own opinions on what the Supreme Court will rule. I 

know I think it is pretty clear what they should rule. I think it is 

pretty obvious that those subsidies were intended for State-run exchanges and not for federally run exchanges; and it is important 

in my State, in the State of Georgia, because we have a federally 

run exchange. If those subsidies go away, what is your plan? Have 

you got a backup plan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Secretary Burwell has spoken to this issue consistently. I don’t have anything more to say. The secretary has spoken for us. 

Mr. CARTER. So you haven t had any input into what you might 

be able to offer as a backup plan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I said, the secretary has been very clear about 

our position on this issue and that is perfectly fine with me. I don’t 

have anything more to add to what the secretary said. 
31 

Mr. CARTER. Do you mind repeating to me what the secretary 

has said? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. She believes that we are on the right side of the 

issue and that we will prevail. 

Mr. CARTER. OK, so we take the attitude that we are going to 

win, so we don’t need a backup plan. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I said, the secretary has been very specific on 

it and I don’t have anything more that I could contribute to her. 

Mr. CARTER. Have you spoken to the White House about it at all? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I have not spoken to the White House, but the 

Secretary has spoken on the issue and I don’t have any more to 

add. 

Mr. CARTER. Goodness, gracious. I know that gives the American 

people a lot of relief to know that. You know, we all have backup 

plans. Nevertheless, if that is the case, I certainly understand. 

I want to get back to a question that was asked earlier about the 

sharing of information. Now, it has been reported, between reported by a very reputable source, the Associated Press, that information from Healthcare.gov has been shared, shared to private 

companies. You are telling me that is not true? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am telling you definitively, sir, that that is not 

true. We have not shared any personal information. We have not 

shared anything that includes names, addresses, Social Security 

numbers, any personal information. 

Mr. CARTER. OK, you haven t shared it, but do you know if any 

has been obtained? Do you know if any has been leaked? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have not shared any information, sir, any 

personal information. 

Mr. CARTER. OK. Mr. Counihan, again, I thank you for being 

here. I wish you had been better prepared, but it is what it is. 

Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back my time. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I thank the gentleman and I think I am up, so 

I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Counihan, it is nice to meet you. I am a new member of the 

committee, so I haven t had a chance to talk with you before. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Nice to meet you. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Mick Mulvaney from South Carolina. And what 

I want to spend most of my time on is just following up on some 

of the things you have said to some of my colleagues on both sides, 

starting with Mr. Meadows from North Carolina. He asked you 

why you had not been able to provide the breakout data that he 

had sought on the enrollment numbers, and your answer was that 

you wanted to make sure the numbers were vetted and verified. I 

think Mr. Cummings actually asked you similar questions; you said 

you wanted to make sure the numbers were checked and doublechecked and triple-checked. So let me ask you a couple questions 

about that. 

Is that the same standard that you use, sir, before you release 

information to the public? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Is it the same standard that you use before you 

release information to the media? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 
32 

Mr. MULVANEY. All right. So the information that came out a 

couple weeks ago that said that somebody had miscounted folks 

who had enrolled in dental coverage, did that come out of your office? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I recall that issue, that was an issue related 

to enrollment of last year where stand-alone dental membership 

was included with healthcare. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Correct. And did that data come from your office? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes, it did. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Had that been vetted, verified, checked, doublechecked, and triple-checked before it was released to the press? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Our commitment in communicating data—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. Hasn’t changed. OK, I got you. 

Mr. COUNIHAN [continuing]. Is to make sure that it is verified. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Fair enough. And it wasn’t in that particular circumstance, was it? It was wrong. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Mr. Chairman—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. There is no shame in admitting you were wrong, 

Mr. Counihan. I have been wrong. I mean, it is only 11 and I have 

been wrong three or four times today. The data that came out on 

the enrollment data was wrong, wasn t it? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, what I would like to communicate to you and 

to the committee is not only our commitment to verification of—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. I get it. That is fine. I promise not to beat up 

on you if you promise not to filibuster the time. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. But we have put in new safeguards to avoid that 

type of problem. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I know a lot of people who would—listen, I work 

with politicians. I have a lot of people who admit they are wrong 

sometimes. Don’t worry about it. 

Let me do ask you this. The process. How long does it take to 

answer Mr. Meadows question? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, Mr. Meadows had several questions. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK, let me do it this way. If I ask you a question, listen, Mr. Counihan, can you tell me how many people were 

auto-enrolled in a different program last year, how long should it 

take you to answer that question? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It is a seemingly simple question; it is a very 

complex question. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Again, I recognize and I simply ask you how long 

should it take you to be able to get—if the White House called you 

and asked you for that, how long would it take you to get that 

number to them on a vetted, verified, checked, triple-checked basis? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am unsure. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK. Let’s go a different way at this. How many 

people were unenrolled or uncovered by health insurance before the 

Affordable Care Act came under law? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is one of the issues one of your colleagues 

asked that I need to followup on. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Yes. The President said it was roughly 30 million people. Was he roughly correct? He said that, I think, in 2009, 

in a joint session of Congress. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I suspect he is. 
33 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK, so roughly 30 million people were uinsured 

at the outset of the Affordable Care Act, before the Affordable Care 

Act became law. Fair enough. 

How many people in the Country are uninsured today? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, that also came up from one of your colleagues. It is a good question that I am coming back to you with 

an answer. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK. Can you give me an educated estimate within, say, a million people? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I need to get back to you with a more precise 

response. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Can you give me an estimate within 5 million 

people? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I want to get back to you with a precise response. 

Mr. MULVANEY. How about 10? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I want to get back to you with a precise response. 

Mr. MULVANEY. You don’t have any idea how many people are 

uninsured in this Nation? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I have learned, with information, it is important to be precise. 

Mr. MULVANEY. I get you. Let me ask this. You had a question 

earlier from, I believe, Mr. Hice, regarding supplemental funds that 

were available to your organization. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Right. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Who knows whether or not that is a true Statement, whether or not you received supplemental funds? You said 

you don’t. You said you weren’t familiar with it, is that correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is correct. 

Mr. MULVANEY. So who in your office would know that answer? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I need to explore that. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Are you aware, Mr. Counihan, that if you were 

the CEO of a publicly traded corporation that was subject to the 

Sarbanes-Oxley requirements that many of the answers that you 

are giving today could get you throw in jail? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I am unfamiliar with the Sarbanes-Oxley. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Have you told anybody in your office not to provide you with information? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I have not. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK. Has anybody in the White House told you 

not to seek information regarding any of the information this committee has sought? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK. Do you feel like you have faithfully undertaken to collect the information this committee is seeking from 

you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I believe I have a commitment and it is my responsibility to provide that information. I also believe—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. Actually, that may be the most stunning answer 

you have given, Mr. Counihan, because that was an easy yes. I 

asked you if you thought you had faithfully undertaken to give us 

the information, and you should have said yes, and you didn’t. 

My time, however, has expired, so I am going to recognize now 

the chairman of the committee for 5 minutes, Mr. Jordan. 

Mr. JORDAN. I thank the gentleman. 
34 

Mr. Counihan, we are having a little debate here in Congress 

this week over what I believe is an unconstitutional action the 

President took last November with 5 million folks who are in the 

Country illegally. Will any of the individuals affected by the President’s executive action, which I think was unconstitutional—and 

you don’t have to take my word for it, lots of legal scholars on both 

sides of the aisle think was unconstitutional, and a Federal judge 

ruled just last week that it was unlawful—will any of those individuals affected by the President’s order on immigration be eligible for 

advanced premium tax credits or subsidies to purchase health insurance? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I know, Mr. Chairman, is that in order to 

be eligible, one has to be either a citizen of the United States or 

lawfully present. 

Mr. JORDAN. So—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As a result, sir, the answer to your question is 

no. 

Mr. JORDAN. Can you guarantee that the folks who have enrolled 

through the Marketplace, can you guarantee none of them are illegal aliens, people impacted by the President’s executive action? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I mentioned before, we have a specific process 

for verifying any self attestations for enrollment. If someone says 

that they have a certain type of eligibility information, that gets 

validated against data sources to see if it is true, and if they can’t 

provide that, we require that they provide specific documentation 

to prove their eligibility. And that is binary; they either can or they 

can’t. 

Mr. JORDAN. To date, do you know if any non-citizens have actually enrolled through Healthcare.gov and are receiving benefits 

under the Affordable Care Act? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have had enrollees that have been unable to 

provide the documentation necessary to prove their eligibility, and 

they have been terminated. 

Mr. JORDAN. OK. Two weeks ago, in this committee room, a colleague of ours, Mr. Mulvaney, in fact, the gentleman chairing the 

committee, asked the head of the IRS if illegal non-citizens could 

in fact go back and receive tax benefits through the Earned Income 

Tax Credit, and the answer was, yes, that can happen. We also 

asked Mr. Koskinen, the head of the IRS, if in fact he had been 

consulted by the White House before the President took his unconstitutional executive actions last November. He indicated that the 

White House did not talk to them. 

Has the White House talked to you, the CEO of the Marketplace 

for Healthcare.gov and for the Affordable Care Act? Did the White 

House consult you before making their decision last November? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. Not at all? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. Have you been in consultation with them since the 

decision has taken place to understand it better, or any type of consultation since the decision was made? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. OK. 
35 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to yield the remainder of 

my time to the gentleman from North Carolina. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Ohio. 

I want to followup on Mr. Mulvaney’s question, because you say 

that you vet all the numbers that you give out. So when you put 

out a press release that said 800,000 people had gotten the wrong 

information—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Eight hundred twenty. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, you put out 800. But when you said that it 

was 800,000 and that 50,000 of those had already filed, how did 

you know that? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, I am not sure of the—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. You didn’t know that. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am not sure of the details of how we—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, let me tell you how you didn’t know that. 

Because you are not with the IRS. So how was that vetted? I mean, 

you just told Mr. Mulvaney you vet every number that goes out, 

you only put it out, and yet you couldn’t have vetted that number 

because you didn’t have access to the IRS information, do you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I meant to say, Congressman, is that we 

have a data analytics department in my operation, our operation, 

that is responsible for exactly vetting data that comes out of our 

office. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So did that information come out of your office? 

It was your press release. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you only vet the information that you don’t 

want to give to Congress, is that correct? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No, that is not correct. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you vet all information—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We vet—— 

Mr. MEADOWS [continuing]. Except when it is a press release 

that may look negative toward you. Because you didn’t vet that information. Let me tell you how you got that 50,000. It was a guess 

based on percentages of people that may or may not file returns; 

and yet you put it out as the fact. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, what I can respond to and what I can—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Was it not a guess? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I can speak to you factually is the protections we put in place to ensure that the data that we give you, that 

I gave to you yesterday over the phone, for example, is accurate. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I yield back. 

Mr. MULVANEY. The time belongs to the gentleman from Ohio, 

and his time has expired. 

We are going to now recognize for a brief second round of questions, the ranking member, the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. 

Cartwright, for an additional 5 minutes. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Counihan, you are appearing before the Oversight and Government Reform Committee Subcommittee on Healthcare, and we 

are a collection of Members of Congress. Some of us voted for the 

ACA; some of us voted against it; some of us were not here when 

it came up to be voted on. My own view is that the ACA is the law 

and we need to try to smooth out the rough parts on it and make 
36 

it work for Americans, and to amend it where it needs to be 

amended and make it better. 

But as much as we disagree about these things, I and the people 

across the aisle from me, we do not disagree about the function of 

this committee and of the Government employees who come before 

it. We demand Government transparency here in the OGR Committee. We demand accurate answers and timely answers. And I 

want you to commit to followup with Mr. Meadows and anyone on 

this committee in an accurate and timely fashion. 

I understand. It was brought up before. There was the question 

of including dental coverage in the numbers of people enrolled, and 

I think it was something like 400,000 people that got dental insurance were included in the overall numbers. But the bottom line 

was it was an honest mistake, but it inflated the numbers, so it 

looked like somebody was trying to paint a rosier picture than actually existed. And it came out of your office. 

It was wrong; it was pilloried here on this committee as being 

wrong, and in the national press; and I must say, I have to say it 

has to be fair to say that you emerged from that experience much 

chastened about bandying about numbers that later turned out to 

be wrong. 

So I encourage you, Mr. Counihan, be really careful because, as 

we continue to debate the merits of the ACA, as we continue to decide what needs to be changed about it going forward into the future, the more you make mistakes about numbers, inaccurate numbers, the more you make mistakes about tax forms, or whoever 

made that mistake, whether it was a software error or a human 

error, the more you damage the debate about the merits of the 

ACA. I appreciate your reticence about giving inaccurate numbers 

today, but I do encourage you to hurry up, get the accurate numbers, and get them to this committee. 

Do you undertake to do that, Mr. Counihan? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. Well, I thank you, sir, and I yield back my 

time. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Thank the gentleman from Maryland. 

I am going to recognize myself an additional 5 minutes. 

Mr. Counihan, I am going to take a different line of questioning 

now. I am just going to ask you about some data, whether you do 

or do not track this kind of data; and I am going to use myself as 

an example. 

I am enrolled in the ObamaCare exchanges, as are many Members of Congress and many of our staff. I had coverage through my 

employment, as most folks do—most folks who have coverage get 

it through their work—prior to enrolling in the ObamaCare exchanges. So my question to you, sir, is am I counted in the roughly 

10 or 11 million people who have enrolled? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You are enrolled through the Washington, DC. 

link exchange? 

Mr. MULVANEY. Correct. Yes, sir, the D.C. shop, I think. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You would be not part of the Federal exchange 

Marketplace numbers; you would be included as part of the Statebased Marketplace numbers. 
37 

Mr. MULVANEY. But when you say that 11 million people signed 

up for ObamaCare, me and my family, we are five of those 11 million people? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. As I understand it, you and your family are 

enrolled through D.C. Link? 

Mr. MULVANEY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Which is a State-based exchange. 

Mr. MULVANEY. But my kids are enrolled through South Carolina. My wife and I enrolled separately because they live back 

home. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK. 

Mr. MULVANEY. But, generally speaking, we signed up through 

the exchanges. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK. Well, I don’t know if it is just you that is 

in D.C. Link or the family, but—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. But we are all counted in the 10 to 11 million 

people who have signed up for ObamaCare. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. If you and your family are in D.C. Link, you 

would be counted. 

Mr. MULVANEY. And in South Carolina the folks are counted as 

well, aren’t they? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. In South Carolina, people that participate in the 

Federal Marketplace, yes. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Yes. OK, that is fine. And that is what we are. 

So here is my question to you: When you tell Congress, when you 

tell the public, when you tell the media that between 10 and 11 

million people have signed up for ObamaCare, do you track differently people who had insurance before and are now on the exchange? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. When you say track, could you define that, 

please? 

Mr. MULVANEY. Do you know how many of the—let’s use the 

number 11 million people. I will give you the benefit of the doubt 

here. let’s say 11 million people have signed up for ObamaCare. Do 

you know how many of those folks were insured separately before 

they signed up for ObamaCare? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Not consistently. 

Mr. MULVANEY. So you don’t know how many of those 11 million 

people are newly covered. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, there are studies that are done by many organizations that track—— 

Mr. MULVANEY. I am not asking about studies by outside organizations. I am asking about you folks. Do you track that number? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. But the numbers that you are referring to is a 

combination of two sources; it is a combination of the Federal Marketplace and it is a combination of State Marketplaces. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Correct. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Some States track that information; some States 

do not. 

Mr. MULVANEY. Does the Federal exchange? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. D.C. Link, as a matter of fact, does track that. 

Mr. MULVANEY. So you know how many people within the Federal exchanges have—— 
38 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I said D.C. Link, which is the Washington, DC. 

State-based exchange. 

Mr. MULVANEY. OK. Well, good. We will look forward to getting 

that data, then. 

All right, with that, I have two and a half minutes left. I am 

going to yield the balance of my time, then, to the gentleman from 

North Carolina, Mr. Meadows. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So let’s go back to the definition of fraud, would 

you agree, is knowing that you are doing something that is incorrect and not telling anybody? Would you agree with that? Is that 

fraud? Is that fraudulent? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I am not a lawyer. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK. I am not a lawyer either. How would you define fraud? OK, maybe that is too hard of a question. So let me get 

to an easier question. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Are there people in the Affordable Care Act, 

through no fault of their own, not misrepresenting their income, 

that are getting the wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The subsidies are very dependent on information 

provided by the—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. That is not my question. My question is without 

their income, assuming everything they told you is 100 percent accurate—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Right. 

Mr. MEADOWS [continuing]. Are there people in the Affordable 

Care Act that have done everything right that are getting the 

wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. If there are people that provided all the correct 

information, that updated their eligibility in a timely way—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. That is not what I asked. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, I am trying—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. I asked a very specific question. They did everything right. You auto re-enrolled them. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Are they getting the wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK, I didn’t—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. You know where I am going with this. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I understand it clear now. You are talking about 

the enrollment for 2015 and the—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. The auto re-enrolled people, are they getting the 

wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. If they did not come back into the marketplace 

and update their income and eligibility like we have strongly encouraged throughout the summer and throughout the fall, it is possible that they are getting an incorrect subsidy. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Yes or no, are they getting—you know the answer. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Congressman, with—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. There are almost 2 million people, according to 

the numbers you gave me yesterday, that were auto re-enrolled. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Are the vast majority of those getting the wrong 

subsidy? 
39 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I don’t know the answer to that. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK. Well, let me answer it for you. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Because I have had to go do all the work, and I 

can tell you the answer to that is yes; and you know it is yes, and 

you are perpetrating a fraud on the American people. Do you not 

know that they are getting the wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, with all due respect, I am not sure that you 

can say that they are getting the wrong subsidy. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK, I know that over 9,000 people in my district 

that were auto re-enrolled are getting the wrong subsidy because 

you used the subsidy from last year, and the Silver benchmark 

plan that they were on last year changed. So would you agree that 

9,000 people in my district are getting the wrong subsidy? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I would not necessarily agree with that because 

unless you have different information, Congressman, and you very 

well might, but some of those 9,000 people could well have come 

back to Healthcare.gov, updated their income and eligibility, and be 

getting the 2015—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. I am talking about passive re-enrollment. Listen, 

you are splitting hairs. I know this almost as well as you do now. 

The passive re-enrolled people, are they getting the wrong subsidy, 

yes or no? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. If people did not come back to the Marketplace 

and did not update their eligibility, it is possible that they could 

be getting the 2014 subsidy, yes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And you know that. So have you notified those 

people that it is incorrect? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We notified people, as I understand it—this was 

before my time, but when this decision was made last summer, so 

this would be the summer of 2014, there was a broad communication campaign to alert people to this decision. 

Mr. MEADOWS. In January, of the almost 2 million people, and 

it was more than that in January, but assuming that there is 2 

million people that were auto re-enrolled, you know because 

820,000 of them just got the wrong 195-As, you know approximately how many people are getting the wrong subsidy. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. But, sir, those are actually independent actions. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I understand that. 

Mr. WALBERG [presiding]. The gentleman s time from South 

Carolina has expired. Give another 5 minutes to the gentleman 

from North Carolina. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank you. 

So let’s followup on this questioning. Do you have any estimates 

on how many people are getting the wrong subsidy today? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I do not. What I—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Have you looked for those? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I can tell you is the information that I gave 

you yesterday, for example, showed that 1.96 million people were 

auto re-enrolled. 

Mr. MEADOWS. No, that is not correct. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What do you mean it is not correct? 
40 

Mr. MEADOWS. Auto re-enrolled was 2.8 something, and then 

people came back and actually came back, so then the net number 

now is that number you just gave me. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is correct. It was 2.83 as of December 16th, 

2014. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, December 16th is curious because open enrollment didn’t stop and automatic re-enrollment didn’t stop until 

December 18th. So why the 2-day difference? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. But that was where we ended auto re-enrollment. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So on December 16th that was the accurate number. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is correct. And as a matter of fact, as you 

may recall, over the phone, you and I actually walked through—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Where the other numbers came from. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is right. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Right. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is right. And I am sorry, sir, just to insert 

one other point is that we continue to strongly encourage people to 

back to Healthcare.gov—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. I will too because, according to my numbers, 

there are hundreds of thousands of people getting the wrong subsidy, and you know that that is correct, don’t you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, we are encouraging people to go back to 

Healthcare.gov, update their eligibility—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. That is a Statement; that is not an answer to my 

question. Do you know that hundreds of thousands of people are 

getting the wrong subsidy. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, as I am telling you, we are encouraging people to get the right subsidy by updating their eligibility. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK. Is it not fraud when you know that you are 

doing wrong and not informing the very people that you have been 

charged to support? Is that not fraudulent? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I don’t know the legal definition of fraud, but 

what I can tell you is—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Is it ethical? 

Mr. COUNIHAN [continuing]. Is when this decision was made, 

back last summer, there was broad communication and outreach 

about the decision. Going into the fall, when I arrived, that has 

been going on in the same and continues now. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you support that decision. You support the decision to keep the American people in the dark. Most of these are 

very low-income folks or, at best, moderate income, and what they 

are going to get is a surprise, and you know they are going to get 

a surprise a year from now where you have given them the wrong 

subsidy. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The decision was made in the summer of last 

year. Since that time—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. And you support that decision, obviously; you 

haven t changed it. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Since that decision was made, we continue to try 

to get people to go back and update their income to make sure exactly what you are saying does not occur. 

Mr. MEADOWS. But it is occurring, wouldn’t you agree? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I would agree that it may occur. 
41 

Mr. MEADOWS. You are an intelligent individual. Is it occurring 

or not? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. When people do not update their eligibility, they 

are going to be having the 2014 APTC, the Advanced Premium Tax 

Credit, applied. But as I said, sir—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So if that is the case, so let’s take your assumption. Out of all the people that auto re-enrolled in North Carolina, 

if that is the case, over half the counties have a different benchmark plan, so they would be getting a different subsidy, because 

their carrier is no longer the same carrier. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. But, sir, I think you are forgetting one critical 

component, which is you are assuming that nobody is coming back 

to update their eligibility or income, and I don’t that that is true. 

Mr. MEADOWS. No, I am not. I started out with that. These are 

passive re-enrolled people, which means they never came back. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is correct, sir. But it is still possible for people to come and update their eligibility. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I understand that. So if they didn’t come back, 

they are getting the wrong subsidy. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. They would be getting the 2014 subsidy. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So is it wrong or right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It is the 2014 subsidy, it is not the 2015 subsidy. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK. Did the subsidy—and I hate the way you are 

going through this, making me go through all of this—did the subsidy, in most of the counties in North Carolina and, in fact, across 

the Country, according to your press release, change because the 

Silver benchmark plan changed? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You are absolutely right, sir. It depends on the 

county. It is a county-specific issue. I can t recall, offhand, how 

many counties throughout the Country where that occurred. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, according to your press release, over 85 percent of the people could have gotten a lower plan. So is that correct? I am sure you vetted that number. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. There are instances where the—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, I am out of time, so I will yield back. 

I thank the patience of the chair. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Meadows. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Mr. Counihan, what would you say would be 

the best way to define success of the Affordable Healthcare Act? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is a very good question. I think it is several 

things. I think one would be reduction of uninsured—— 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, well, let’s talk about that. I think that s 

probably how you would define that. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I think it is multi-dimensional. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, but let’s start with that because that is an 

important topic. That is what the President said, we needed this 

law because there are 30 million uninsured people in this Country, 

and we need to help those people. 

Did you write your opening Statement or did somebody write it 

for you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. It was written with my input. 
42 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. And when you talked about the number of 

uninsured, you told me it was the lowest in five decades. What was 

the uninsured rate five decades ago? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am not sure. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, how do you know that it is the lowest if 

you don’t know what that was, and how can you tell us today, tell 

this committee that we have the lowest rate of uninsured in five 

decades? I think Mr. Mulvaney asked if you could tell us within 1 

million or even within 5 million, and you didn’t give us an answer. 

Can you give me an answer now? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I can tell you, and I am happy to provide 

this as part of my Statement, is that each of the data that has been 

cited has a reference point to where that came from. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. Well, you are telling us that there are 11.6 

million people signed up, so we don’t know whether those were previously uninsured or people who just changed insurances. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. So that is information that is tracked by some 

States. There are studies done periodically that do measure the impact on the uninsured both through Medicaid expansion and 

through the rollout of qualified health plans. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Do you feel like your opening Statement was accurate and truthful? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, so your claim that we have the most uninsured can’t be substantiated by you today because you can’t give 

us any numbers. So are you just theorizing that that is the truth 

or is that the truth? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. Every piece of information in my testimony, 

my opening Statement was qualified and cited to a specific data 

source. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Well, we worry a little bit about propaganda because this was a really unpopular law when the President tried to 

pass it; he had to cut all kinds of deals to get the votes to pass it. 

Then the IRS had to change the rule that the Supreme Court is 

going to be looking at here in a few weeks, King and Burwell, very 

important, and we will talk about that for a minute, too. But when 

you said that you send out weekly data, that is accurate; every 

week you put that out it is accurate. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. But today you can’t tell us what is accurate or 

not. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No, I think I didn’t speak properly. What I said 

was that in my opening Statement, whenever there was a reference 

to information or to data, that it was cited. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Well, if you were the President, you would want 

to make your program look go. So by saying that you have the lowest number of uninsured in five decades, that is obviously an attempt to say, hey, this thing is working. But when we ask you 

those numbers, you can’t give them to us. So is this just propaganda? Is this the President trying to make his law look better 

than it is? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I tried to say, and perhaps I didn’t say it 

as clearly as I should, is that any data or information that I share 

with this committee has to be spot-on. 
43 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, are the weekly reports spot-on? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. They are. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK. Actually, there seems to be a disconnect 

here because every week you can give spot-on data, but today, in 

our committee, you can’t tell any of us spot-on data. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I think I gave some spot-on data, sir. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. It would be squeezed in between a lot of nonanswers. 

I asked you earlier how do you get the money back from the 

illegals who have gotten or the people you can’t verify should be 

getting healthcare, and I don’t think you had time to answer. Mr. 

Jordan brought it up as well. How do we get the money back, subsidies that were given to people illegally? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I tried to describe, sir, was the process that 

we use that is very specific to verify people’s eligibility. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. How do we get the money back? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Specific to your point about getting money back 

would relate to how much money has been inappropriately spent, 

and I don’t know the answer to either one of those two. I don’t have 

the facts behind that. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. And you told Mr. Jordan that you didn’t talk to 

anybody about the impact that the President’s executive action 

may have? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Correct. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, it sounds like something we might want to 

be concerned about because it sounds like we are talking about a 

lot of money. And you said Secretary Burwell handled the issue of 

what is going to happen or not in King. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. OK, so you don’t have an opinion on that? 

These 11 million people that you are here today saying that this 

law has been a success because you are helping cover, you don’t 

have an answer for them if the Supreme Court strikes down the 

subsidies from the employees? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The secretary has spoken for us. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. And what she said is that they don’t have a 

plan, they don’t need a plan. Do you all know something we don’t 

know about the Supreme Court decision? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The secretary has spoken for us. I don’t have a 

comment on that issue, sir. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. Are you comfortable with her answer? I mean, 

you have to be able to think for yourself. Does that make you feel 

a little bit nervous about what might happen if it is not ruled in 

your favor? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am very comfortable with the secretary s answer. 

Mr. DESJARLAIS. All right, thank you for your time. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Thank you. 

Mr. WALBERG. The gentleman from Ohio is recognized for 1 

minute. 

Mr. JORDAN. I thank the chairman. Just real quickly, I wanted 

to followup where the gentleman from Tennessee was. 

So you say you have this elaborate fail-safe process that no 

illegals are going to sign up for the Affordable Care Act; yet, you 
44 

have 50,000 folks who have already filed their tax returns with 

false information that you all gave to them. Can you assure this 

committee and, more importantly, the American people that no 

illegals have signed up for ObamaCare and received any kind of 

subsidy or any kind of benefit? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I described—— 

Mr. JORDAN. No, no, that is a real simple question. Can you assure this committee and, more importantly, the American people 

that no illegals have signed up and received benefits from 

ObamaCare? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I have tried to do is to describe the process 

we do to validate—— 

Mr. JORDAN. That is not the question. You did that with my line 

of questioning the last time. I am asking you can you assure us 

that no one has received benefits who is an illegal? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, we have an elaborate validation process—— 

Mr. JORDAN. Can you—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN [continuing]. And I am confident in the process. 

Mr. JORDAN. We have been here now an hour and a half, and we 

would like one time for you to give us just a yes or no when we 

ask a question. Mr. Meadows tried for 15 minutes to get you to answer a question. We would like you to answer this one question because it is important to the debate that is taking place in Congress 

this week, important debate that the American people care pretty 

deeply about. Can you assure this committee and the American 

people that no one, no illegal has received benefits under the Affordable Care Act? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I am going to repeat—— 

Mr. JORDAN. OK, so here is the point, Mr. Counihan. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have a very—— 

Mr. JORDAN. If your fail-safe, wonderful approach to make sure 

this doesn’t happen, if it is so good, that would be easy for you to 

say, yes, I can assure you. But my guess is you won’t say yes because obviously your approach on sending out tax information to 

these folks is not fail-safe. You have 50,000 people already filed, 

800,000 people who got false information. So it is a logical question 

for the American people to ask, now, if that happened, might some 

illegals be getting benefits under the Affordable Care Act today. 

And you should be able to assure the American citizens that that 

is not happening, and you won’t do it. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. What I can assure the American people is the 

same assurance I give you and the rest of the committee, which is 

the discipline of the process for validating eligibility. 

Mr. JORDAN. This is amazing, Mr. Chairman. This is amazing. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Good afternoon, sir. The President’s program, executive program that is subject of much controversy, where he is 

going to issue up to 5 million work permits to people who are in 

the Country illegally, Social Security numbers, when they get those 

documents, would they then be eligible to have ObamaCare subsidies? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I need to educate myself better in the details 

of that. 
45 

Mr. DESANTIS. And are you aware if a business, if faced with 

who otherwise is subject to the ObamaCare system, has a choice 

to hire either a U.S. citizen or somebody with one of these work 

permits, isn’t it the case that the U.S. citizen would be subject to 

the employer mandate? In other words, the employer would have 

to provide the ObamaCare-prescribed insurance, but somebody who 

is here illegally, the employer would actually not have to provide 

it; therefore, the person who is here illegally can be hired at a 

lower price? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, sir, and I am not a labor lawyer and I am 

not an expert in this, but—— 

Mr. DESANTIS. With the employer mandate, though, if somebody 

has a work permit and they are not here legally, the employer, it 

is as if that doesn’t apply to them, right? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I think there are some consequences for hiring illegal aliens if I am an employer. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Well, the President is issuing work permits. I am 

saying if he issues the work permits, then that is basically a signal 

to the employer that you can hire these people. Otherwise, why 

would you issue the work permits? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You know, sir, with deep respect, this is a Department of Labor issue. This is beyond my bailiwick. 

Mr. DESANTIS. It is an ObamaCare issue, because the reason 

why you would have a hiring incentive, perhaps, is because of the 

disparate treatment that folks will get the way the law is written. 

So I just think it is important for the American people to know if 

these work permits enable people to go and get subsidies, then taxpayers would want to know that. If they are actually exempt from 

the employer mandate, then that seems to me to provide an incentive for employers to hire folks who have those, who are not legally 

in the Country but have the work permit. And, yes, they are hiring, 

but it is an issue that is germane to the patient protection in Affordable Care Act and its requirements. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I understand the question. It calls for speculation. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Why would it call for speculation? The law has 

been on the books since 2010. wouldn’t we know? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. My understanding of your question is you are 

asking me to speculate if there is some type of incentive in place 

for an employer to hire a certain type of work force. That is my understanding of your question. 

Mr. DESANTIS. So you look at the law on the books, you know 

that these work permits are coming down the pike, so it is a simple 

question of if somebody is illegally here and they get a work permit, what is the interaction with that and the Affordable Care Act. 

So it is not a speculation; it is looking at the law on the books and 

then explaining what the department s position would be. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I need to think through your question. 

Mr. DESANTIS. So can you reply to us in writing and we can lay 

out the question? Because I just think it is important to know. 

Some of this stuff, it seems, that has frustrated a lot of the American people is kind of done on the fly and we don’t even know the 

rules. This one we need to know one way or another. 
46 

With that, I am going to yield the remainder of my time to my 

friend from North Carolina, Mr. Meadows. 

Mr. WALBERG. The gentleman from North Carolina is recognized. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Florida. 

So let me ask the last question, since you know we would not 

have had this hearing if you had just had responded to any of the 

23 emails. Do you realize that, that if you just responded to my 

simple request, that this wouldn’t have had to happen? So let me 

ask this question. How many people were put in a plan other than 

the exact plan that they had in 2014? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I don’t know the answer to that yet. I know that 

that is a critical question and that is information that we will be 

getting. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So it is your testimony here today that you do not 

know the number, be careful because you are under oath, you do 

not know the number of the number of people that were put in a 

plan other than the one they were in 2014, after 70 days of me asking? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I do not have a number I would share with 

you. I don’t have a verified number that I am confident to share 

with you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. OK. Well, give me the non-verified; we will put 

a big qualifier around it. How many? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, with the deepest respect, I am not going to 

share a number with you that is not verified. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you have done analysis. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We are doing analysis. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Would you say there are over 800,000 of them? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I think the number is significantly smaller than 

that. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you have a ballpark. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I have a ballpark. I am not sharing a ballpark 

until it is verified, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right, so you put between 500,000 and 800,000 

people in a plan other than the one they had had, so they may not 

have the same doctor. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. The issue about provider networks—and you and 

I have had a discussion about this—is actually independent of that 

transfer. 

Mr. MEADOWS. It is. Yes. So who decides who is in that, you or 

the insurance companies? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. And you and I discussed this as well. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And I know the answer. So go ahead and answer 

it for the American people. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. OK, because I come from that world. That is a 

relationship, a contractual relationship, as you know, that is created between the insurance company and the providers. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. And that is exactly where I wanted to 

go. So the insurance company and the patient are the ones that 

have the contractual obligation. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. You mean the insurance company and the provider. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And the provider. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 
47 

Mr. MEADOWS. Right. So as we have done that, you have reached 

in and you have decided for over a half million people what plan 

they should have. Did you not do that? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, in the first place, that number that you 

threw out is not a number that I would necessarily support. You 

said a half million people. That is one. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you say it is less than that. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. As I said, I believe it is less than that, but—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, you have people behind you. If they are not 

going to help you with it, don’t bring them. They know the number. 

You know the number. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, you and I have discussed this. I am—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right, can we get that answer within the next 

7 days? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I will get that answer to you as quickly as 

I can. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Mr. Chairman, I would yield back, but before 

yielding back I would suggest the committee strongly look at subpoenaing all the data, all the correspondence, because it is obvious 

that this gentleman is stonewalling the committee and, more important, it is not the committee, it is the American people, and I 

take that very seriously. And I thank the patience of the chair. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Meadows. 

I would like to yield myself just a minute or two to finalize a couple questions here, then we will close the hearing for the day. 

The Navigators program was funded through Federal grants to 

outreach groups so that they could enroll individuals in their exchanges. Our review has uncovered that this program, in 2014, had 

a negligible effect. The question is this: Mr. Counihan, was the 

Navigators program in operation for this last enrollment period? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. WALBERG. How much funding was given to these support 

groups? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I need to confirm that with you; I am not exactly 

sure. I have that information, but I can’t remember it right offhand. 

Mr. WALBERG. Where do you have the information? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. In my office. 

Mr. WALBERG. In your office. You didn’t bring the information 

with you? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Not for that specific question. 

Mr. WALBERG. OK. Did you conduct any analysis on whether the 

Navigator program was actually improving the quality of applications submitted, that is, they had fewer mistakes? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. We have done a lot of analysis about the Navigator and a sister program. 

Mr. WALBERG. And why did you feel like you had a need to do 

that? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am sorry, why did we feel? 

Mr. WALBERG. Yes. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Well, to be quite frank with you, sir, it is because 

it involves taxpayer money. We want to be appropriate stewards of 

taxpayer money; it is all of our money and we want to make sure 

we are getting the proper return. 
48 

Mr. WALBERG. You want to be properly stewards of taxpayers 

money, but 52 percent of them have trouble as far as whether they 

are paying back $530 I believe was the exact number? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I am unfamiliar with that quote. I know you referred to H&R Block or something like that. I don’t know about 

that. 

Mr. WALBERG. I wouldn’t think you would. 

You know, I will just be frank with you. I am fairly new at the 

process here, have sat through a few hearings, but I would venture 

to guess if we were to ask you all these questions or all the answers to all the questions we asked that you did not know, if we 

were to extend a week to you, is that something that you would be 

willing to do to bring back the answers to multiple questions that 

there was basically I can’t recall? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Sir, I am responsible for the program. It is my 

responsibility to be accountable to the department, as well as to 

you, for information that you need. 

Mr. WALBERG. That was my final question, and I still didn’t get 

a yes or no. If you were extended a week, would you be able to 

come back with most of this information? 

Mr. COUNIHAN. Yes. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Would the gentleman yield for one point of clarification? 

Mr. WALBERG. The gentleman is recognized from North Carolina. 

Mr. MEADOWS. You mentioned that automatic re-enrollment 

ended on December 16th. That highlighted comes from your 

Website. And I know that you can’t read that from there, but your 

Website actually says that auto re-enrollment started on December 

16th and closed on December 18th. So is—— 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I mean, I just pulled that off, because all I have 

to go by is what you put on the Web. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. I understand. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So what you are saying is it is vetted incorrectly 

on your Website. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is 

I can’t see that document, to be frank with you—— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, you can have them pull it up, because it is 

on Healthcare.gov right now, and it says that auto re-enrollment 

stopped on December 18th. 

Mr. COUNIHAN. That is because of processing time. That is the 

difference between the actual stop date of the 16th and the processing time to the 18th. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. Thank you for that clarification. 

Mr. WALBERG. Thank you, Mr. Meadows. 

My closing remark would be one of the things that I believe that 

could help what I feel like is a very poor performance is a very 

prompt response to many of these questions, and I hope that we 

look forward, we all look forward to some of these vital answers 

that are important to the American people. 

I would like to thank our witness for sitting in that seat for the 

last hour and 40 minutes and doing your best job to answer, I 

hope, the many questions. 
49 

If there is no further business, without objection, the committee 

stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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