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1

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 CAUSE NO. Jun 0413-2 EE-2J

 Wednesday, July 17, 2013

 10:03 a.m.

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Suite 8E-089

 Washington, D.C. 20585

Reported by: Janel Benoit Folsom,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 PARTICIPANTS

3 Neil Eisner, Facilitator

4 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

5 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

6 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

7 Phillip Stephens, HTP, Inc.

8 Russell "Rusty" Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing

9 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing

10 Karim Amrane, Air Conditioning, Hearing, and

 Refrigeration Institute

11

Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice

12

Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration and Air

13 Conditioning

14 Robert Whitwell, Carrier

15 Frank Stanonick, Air Conditioning, Hearing, and

 Refrigeration Institute

16

Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric

17

Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

18

Michael Kojack, Underwriters Laboratory, LLC

19

Judd Smith, CSA International

20

Jill Hootman, Trane

21

Mary Dane, Traulsen

22

John Clements, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued)

3 Mark W. Fly, AAON

4 Harvey Sachs, American Counsel for an Energy Efficient

 Economy

5

Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises

6

Mike Rivest, Navigant

7

Laura Degitz, Navigant

8

Collin Weber, Navigant

9

Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures

10

Kevin Washington, ITW

11

Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

12

Frank Myers, PVI Industries

13

Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

14

Alex Bosenberg, NEMA

15

Ron Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

16

Mike Stem, Intertek

17

Diane Jakobs, Rheem

18

Aris Marantan, PhD

19

John Hurst, Lennox International

20

Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute

21

John Mandyck, Carrier

22

Charles Hon, True Manufacturing
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: So there was an interim

3 meeting, and I thought Laura might want to bring us up

4 to date where we are, what happened in that meeting,

5 and where we are now.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So we had a meeting last

7 Wednesday with manufacturers of computer room air

8 conditioners and SPVUs, and we got a lot of helpful

9 information, and I think we have slides put together

10 to go through that material.

11 I think -- if it works for everyone, I think

12 we have resolved most of the issues on basic model

13 from the last meeting, and we were going to be ready

14 to take a vote this week. So if it is agreeable to

15 everyone, I would suggest -- we've been staring at

16 these same slides for quite some time. Maybe we can

17 just actually start going through them and start

18 voting on things. And then when we get to the

19 unresolved issues, we'll handle those as we go through

20 the slides. That way we're not jumping back and forth

21 around in the slides.

22 MR. EISNER: Any concerns or objections or
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1 questions? Maybe what we should do is get an informal

2 okay on each slide, go to the next one, and then at

3 the end, if everybody's okay with everything, I want

4 to go back and look at a particular slide.

5 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I

6 agree with that general position. I think there were

7 some water source heat pump accessories that we did

8 not go through last time, and also I would like to

9 consider some potential VRF (ph) accessories also.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some additional what?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Is it okay if we deal with

12 that as we go through the slides?

13 MR. THARP: I'm fine with that.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or at the end, because

16 they're not in the slides?

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Who wants to walk us

18 through the slides?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can. Hang on one -- are

20 you -- let me get them in order.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. FREEMAN: Do you want me to navigate?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, sure. We can do that

2 that way.

3 MR. EISNER: Do the introductions first.

4 Okay. When you're talking, don't forget put your mic

5 on, say your name. We have another new reporter here

6 today.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want us to do them at

8 the outset, too, everyone's name and affiliation?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Sure.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Should we just go

11 around the room?

12 MR. EISNER: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

14 MR. EISNER: I'm Neil Eiser, facilitator.

15 MS. DANE: Mary Dane from Traulsen.

16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.

17 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and

18 Electric Company.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman, National

21 Refrigeration and Air Conditioning.

22 MR. CLEMENTS: John Clements, Mitsubishi
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1 Electric.

2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.

3 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem

4 Manufacturing.

5 MR. KOJACK: Mike Kojack, UL.

6 MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox

7 International.

8 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, DOE.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE.

14 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant.

15 MS. DEGITZ: Laura Degitz, Navigant.

16 MS. TUCKER: Corey Tucker, Navigant.

17 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant.

18 MR. EISNER: We go around in the back?

19 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay.

20 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON.

21 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs, Rheem

22 Manufacturing.
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1 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, Southern Store

2 Fixtures.

3 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI Industries.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied

5 Air.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Can you all step down to the

7 microphone? Thank you.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

9 Electric Institute.

10 MR. BOSENBERG: Alex Bosenberg, National

11 Electrical Manufacturers Association.

12 MR. WASHINGTON: Kevin Washington with ITW

13 D.C. office, parent of Traulsen.

14 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertek.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wow.

17 MR. EISNER: Oh, one more.

18 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Jeff (inaudible)

19 Group.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the basic model

21 definition that we have for commercial warm air

22 furnaces, a basic model means all commercial warm air
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1 furnaces manufactured by one manufacturer that have

2 the same nominal input ratings and have the same

3 primary energy source, e.g., gas or oil, and that do

4 not have any different physical or functional

5 characteristics that affect energy efficiency.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. Just

7 one minor thing. We could take the plural off of

8 ratings because there's only one input rating. "Same

9 nominal input rating."

10 MR. EISNER: All right. Any questions,

11 comments? Everybody okay with this for now? All

12 right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Should we vote on it?

14 MR. EISNER: Well, we'll just get an

15 informal okay, I think, now, and then just vote on the

16 whole thing at the end, see if anybody wants go ahead.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would vote as we go

18 because I'm pretty sure there's going to be ones that

19 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen Meyers with

20 Rheem. So as we've gone through this process, we

21 have, you know, noted exceptions that will not be

22 included when a unit is tested or anything like that.
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1 So the clause "different physical or functional

2 characteristics," you know, we've noted things that

3 could affect that, but would not be included as a

4 basic model that is tested. How is that clarified in

5 this definition?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are no exceptions --

7 MS. BARHYDT: So the definition --

8 MS. MEYERS: We're on warm air furnaces.

9 Excuse me (inaudible).

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. EISNER: We had a really good answer for

12 this.

13 MS. MEYERS: Sorry.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I put the easy ones first, I

15 thought.

16 MS. MEYERS: That's all right.

17 MR. EISNER: Any concerns with voting now on

18 each slide? Okay. Anybody object? Everybody agrees?

19 Let's go to the next slide.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model definition,

21 commercial package boilers. The basic model means all

22 commercial package boilers of a given type
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1 manufactured by one manufacturer having the same

2 primary energy source, e.g., gas or oil, and that have

3 essentially identical electrical, physical, and

4 functional characteristics that affect energy

5 efficiency.

6 MR. EISNER: Questions? Comments? Does

7 anybody object? Does anybody abstain? Should have

8 asked that. Did anybody abstain on the first one?

9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. The

10 definition allows the same basic -- a basic model to

11 include a number of different input rates.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

13 MR. SACHS: Just -- I think I'm okay with

14 that, but I just want to make sure that this is

15 starting to move toward product family-type

16 definition.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It's at the -- from

18 the Department's position, it is at the discretion of

19 the manufacturer to do them.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ashley.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

22 MR. EISNER: Any objections? Any
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1 abstentions? Okay. Let's go to the next slide.

2 MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. Can you

3 hear me?

4 MR. EISNER: Yes.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

6 MR. MANDYCK: The webinar's not -- you guys

7 haven't loaded.

8 MR. EISNER: We're looking for a response.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's working on our computer

10 here. We can see it when both logged in and logged in

11 on a different computer.

12 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik. I can see

13 it.

14 MR. MANDYCK: All right. I'll just reload

15 it. Sorry.

16 MR. EISNER: Okay. Next slide?

17 MR. STEPHENS: Jeff just walked in. He's a

18 boiler guy.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jeff, we just voted for you.

20 MR. STEPHENS: We haven't changed the basic

21 model definition, have we?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We did not.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. That's good.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to go back and

3 recite it?

4 MALE SPEAKER: I did your proxy, Jeff.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Next slide?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Ready? Basic model

7 definition, commercial water heaters. A basic model

8 means all water heaters of a given type manufactured

9 by one manufacturer having the same primary energy

10 source, e.g., gas or oil, that have essentially

11 identical electrical, physical, and functional

12 characteristics that affect energy efficiency.

13 MR. EISNER: Any questions, comments?

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs again.

15 Just some clarification. This is certainly parallel

16 to the prior ones, but physical characteristics that

17 affect energy efficiency would include capacity by

18 affecting the surface area and, consequently, the heat

19 loss.

20 So this is one issue that implicitly seems

21 to me to allow different burners in the same size can,

22 but not to allow different size cans within the same
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1 basic model. Am I understanding that correctly?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't explicitly

3 disallow it.

4 MR. SACHS: I couldn't hear you, Ashley.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. It

6 doesn't explicitly disallow it, so if you wanted to

7 put that have -- be identical in nominal capacity or

8 something along that lines, we could add it. It

9 doesn't state that they have to be same capacity,

10 whether that be volume or input rate or whatever.

11 MR. SACHS: Well, the volume is the --

12 Harvey Sachs again. The volume is the parameter that

13 --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know.

15 MR. SACHS: -- I resonated on, and my only

16 concern is is that ambiguous enough that it may lead

17 to differences of opinion between the Department and

18 some manufacturers at some point down the road?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you could say that

20 they have to have the same rated volume.

21 MR. SACHS: Well, I guess I'm asking the

22 manufacturers if that would be helpful or harmful,
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1 just in terms of people trying to loophole.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'm

3 good with this definition. I like that it gives

4 manufacturers much more flexibility. We could easily

5 have a smaller heat exchanger in a smaller tank and a

6 larger heat exchanger in a larger tank. That would

7 have the same efficiency, the same benefit.

8 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. For

9 any unit that has a volume greater than ten gallons

10 and requires standby heat loss, I don't -- I think

11 it's intuitive that they would have a different energy

12 calculation and not qualify as a basic model, as

13 there's a difference in the storage volume.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. I think,

15 Phillip, that your comment about two different heat

16 exchangers, apart from -- I can see different heat

17 exchangers from the same heat exchange per unit area,

18 but they would have different physical characteristics

19 just in terms of having different size.

20 So, again, I'm asking you if we don't have

21 an ambiguity that requires some clarification so that

22 we don't have different interpretations that might
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1 look like loopholes.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Well, Jeff's comment was

3 right on the money that when you look at standby loss,

4 it prevents those loopholes from happening.

5 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey again. You

6 all, as manufacturers and DOE, are comfortable that

7 this is going to give us a level playing field?

8 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

9 MS. MEYERS: Jeff, will you repeat what you

10 said?

11 MR. KLEISS: Yes. The features that we have

12 to report on commercial water heaters are -- I'm

13 sorry. I'm understating. Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar --

14 that the -- when you're over ten gallons of storage

15 volume, then you have to report standby heat loss as

16 well as thermal efficiency. So if you're -- you could

17 have consistent thermal efficiency, but any time you

18 would have a change in volume and you're over ten

19 gallons, you would have to determine your standby heat

20 loss, and that will change with any change in volume.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think another way -- this

22 is Ashley. Another way to say it is, Harvey, it
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1 pretty much does require each basic model to have a

2 singular rated storage volume. It doesn't explicitly

3 say that, though. So to the extent -- I mean, that is

4 what you're describing. That is what you're going to

5 do. To the extent we want to make that explicit, we

6 could just say with, you know --

7 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. As

8 long as we maintain the stipulation of greater than

9 ten gallons of storage volume, then I would be okay in

10 adding volume as a limitation or similarity on that

11 definition.

12 MR. SACHS: Ashley -- this is Harvey. I

13 would like to see that clarification. I'm just

14 worried about some half-baked lawyer for some new

15 entrant firm saying, "Ah, we can do everything in one

16 basic model." I recognize that not everybody has half17 baked lawyers.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

19 would prefer that it stay the way it is because this

20 is -- this would be easier to adopt new technologies

21 to.

22 MR. SACHS: You hit my sensitive spot.
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI

2 Industries. I, too, feel it should stay as it is.

3 There are two areas, below 10 gallons and those over

4 140 gallons. When you get over 140 gallons -- we make

5 water heaters up to 5,000 gallons -- there's variation

6 according to what option's selected. This gives us a

7 little bit of flexibility to cover that.

8 In all the years that we've been doing this,

9 we haven't seen a hole (ph) that this this would let

10 through, so

11 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I give up.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are there any other

13 comments? Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay.

14 Let's go on to the next slide.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model definition, CRE.

16 A basic model means all units of commercial

17 refrigeration equipment manufactured by one

18 manufacturer having the same primary energy source and

19 that have essentially identical electrical, physical,

20 and functional characteristics that affect energy

21 consumption. And if you can delete the next sentence.

22 There you go.
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1 MR. EISNER: Comments? Any objections?

2 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik from

3 Hussmann.

4 MR. EISNER: We're having a little trouble

5 hearing you. Can you speak up?

6 MR. SHEBIK: Sorry. This is Ron from

7 Hussmann. Can you hear me better?

8 MR. EISNER: Yes.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. We -- going back to the

10 definition of basic model for CRE, there were some

11 topics that we were looking at as exclusions from the

12 basic model. Do we want to cover those here, or are

13 those going to be covered in a separate item?

14 MS. BARHYDT: So, Ron, what we're doing is

15 we're doing the basic model definition, and that's the

16 broad definition of how the manufacturers can group

17 models, and then how we're treating all of those

18 individual issues is in the separate slides following

19 this.

20 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Well, if Charlie, Jeff,

21 and Mary have no objections, then I don't either,

22 then.
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1 MR. EISNER: No objections, no abstentions?

2 Okay. Ready for the next slide.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So was that all -- I

4 guess they're somewhat mixed up because we inserted

5 these as we went along, so

6 MALE SPEAKER: You want the next one, or

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: No, these are the ones that

8 we're still

9 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, this is the CRE --

10 MS. BARHYDT: So let's actually jump ahead

11 and do all of the basic model definitions. What slide

12 number is this?

13 MALE SPEAKER: Six.

14

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we'll come back. Do

16 you want to go ahead and do this now?

17 MR. EISNER: Yeah, let's --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the CRE features

19 were customer display signs and lights. Some

20 customers may wish to add additional exterior signage

21 outside of the body of the refrigerated cabinet to

22 units for advertising purposes.
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1 DOE is suggesting that we will issue

2 guidance to indicate that only the energy consumption

3 of the lighting used to illuminate the merchandise --

4 that is, the product that is being displayed -- should

5 be included in the test procedure energy use

6 calculation.

7 MR. EISNER: Do you want to go over each one

8 of these one at a time?

9 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Comments, questions?

11 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. This is a

12 difficult one because you're giving us a lot of leeway

13 here, but it's in direct conflict with Canada and the

14 Energy Star group.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not in direct conflict with

16 --

17 MR. HON: They all require that external

18 lighting which is permanently affixed to the unit,

19 especially like the sign display over the top of the

20 door, to be included.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the -- I will clarify one

22 position. The latest draft that just went out of the
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1 Energy Star completely harmonizes the test procedure

2 with the DOE test procedure. So any changes we were

3 to make here would carry over to Energy Star.

4 MR. HON: But what about Canada?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a valid --

6 MR. HON: Ashley, did you hear me --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a valid point. I

8 can't -- that's out of my control.

9 MR. HON: Then we're adding additional

10 testing into our processes.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, technically,

12 if you add in additional energy consumption for the

13 lights, it's going to give you a more conservative

14 rating, and you're free to rate conservatively under

15 the DOE scheme.

16 MR. HON: But unfortunately, with Energy

17 Star involvement, you have a difference there, because

18 Energy Star numbers are quite often compared apples to

19 apples, theoretically, but not apples to oranges,

20 which this could easily make it into if we can rate it

21 conservatively because of the sign panels having

22 traditionally been an integral part of the unit now
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1 being excluded.

2 That means that all the testings we've had

3 done previously suddenly become very conservative, and

4 we will have a tremendous push from our marketing

5 groups, to say the least, to run new calculations for

6 Energy Star and for DOE to make them look better, and

7 all the conversations and all the NOPR work has been

8 done with at least one sign panel included.

9 Will Collin verify that one for me, please?

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

11 National. I'm just going to -- they're having a bit

12 of a -- DOE's having a bit of a side conversation,

13 Charlie. They're not ignoring you.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I heard --

15 MR. BAUMAN: I'm also kind of surprised

16 because the amount of lighted headers that -- again, I

17 -- you know, it sounds a little odd that industry's

18 saying, "Hey, you guys aren't regulating us enough."

19 But the amount of lighted sign headers that are out

20 there -- and, again, that's been historically what

21 these units have been tested on, and I would -- as

22 Charlie said, I would assume that's kind of how the
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1 standards were looked at, but you can speak to that

2 better, that I would think lighted sign headers that

3 are part of the basic model would be much better to be

4 included than not.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department's happy to

6 agree with your position here if that's where you want

7 to go.

8 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, maybe it's a matter --

9 and where we've struggled with, I think, on our side

10 is when it goes to additional lighting and displays

11 and all the other stuff. I mean, maybe it's

12 potentially simple -- and Charlie could speak to this

13 better, is that it's a matter of saying lighting that

14 illuminates the product or any sign headers over the -

15 - you know, how you display that, but lighted headers

16 would be included in that.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the way I read this is

18 that the position for a vote is that the Department

19 needs to go through some type of process, whether it's

20 a guidance process or whether it's a proposed rule, to

21 figure out what's in and what's out.

22 In other words, we're committing here to
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1 saying we believe that those lightings that are

2 intended for use for the displaying the product --

3 now, whether that's everything that's integral to the

4 cabinet or not or parts and how you draw that line, we

5 don't know. That will need to be figured out.

6 What we're saying, we're willing to go

7 through this process. We're committing to going

8 through that process by putting this out for a vote.

9 MR. BAUMAN: I'm okay with that.

10 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I'm okay

11 with that because we just need to clarify and be

12 consistent. That --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, I think that

14 it's going to be way too hard here in this forum to go

15 through all the details that need to be -- that we

16 would need to hash out in order to come with a

17 position of this is exactly how you test, this is how

18 you turn on, and we have to go through a separate

19 process anyway. But it will be a process that's

20 subject to notice and comment, either -- whether it's

21 a guidance process or not, and, you know, we would

22 encourage you guys to work with us.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

2 MR. HON: Okay. I -- go ahead.

3 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

4 National. I just -- I guess, then, are we -- are you

5 going to modify the wording there to indicate that

6 only energy consumption of lighting to illuminate the

7 merchandise or some kind of wording there to add in

8 that DOE is continuing to look at other lighting?

9 Because, again, I have the similar concern -- I know

10 we can relate --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

12 MR. BAUMAN: -- conservatively, but I think

13 you're going to get a lot of inconsistencies where

14 customers are going to look at it and think that one

15 unit uses more energy than another, but that may be

16 because they rated conservatively and used their

17 existing testing --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

19 MR. BAUMAN: -- to include the lighting.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So how about we just say,

21 "DOE will initiate a process" -- I'm not sure if it'll

22 be a guidance process or a test procedure or
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1 rulemaking process -- "to address how customer display

2 signage and lighting is accounted for in the test

3 procedure." Are we okay with that?

4 MR. BAUMAN: I'm fine with that.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

7 MALE SPEAKER: What was the last part of

8 that?

9 MR. HON: I'm fine with that as well because

10 we had plenty of things that we were concerned about

11 too much included. All of a sudden, we went back

12 here, and I was suddenly looking at 150 extra tests I

13 needed to run.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. And then I'm hoping -

15 -

16 MR. HON: And that's nothing --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that you guys will work

18 with us to come up with that position.

19 MR. HON: Oh, you know we will.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

21 MR. HON: Thank you.

22 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik from
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1 Hussmann. One question on this because your initial

2 position for vote, I felt, would probably be a fine

3 position for supermarket (inaudible) cases because we

4 don't have -- we don't deal with the additional

5 signage. I mean, there's very -- there would be very

6 little, if none -- no opportunity for additional

7 signage like that.

8 Now, to what Jeff and Charlie were speaking

9 of, is there a way we can -- in order to dive deeper,

10 if it's necessary, can we separate the supermarket

11 cases from the (inaudible) siders?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. If

13 I understand what you just explained correctly, if

14 there's -- if it's a non-issue, then this wouldn't

15 even be applicable. I mean, the test procedure

16 already accounts for it. The test procedure already

17 explicitly required the product illumination be

18 included, so to the extent there's -- I'm sorry?

19 MR. SHEBIK: That's correct, yeah.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't think there's a

21 need for clarification here or separation.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. All right. Thank you.
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1 MR. EISNER: Everybody agree with the change

2 in the first bullet? Okay. Anybody object? Anybody

3 abstain?

4 All right. We have agreement on the first

5 one. Second one?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Condensate pan heaters. These

7 are electric resistance heaters used in some equipment

8 types to evaporate defrost melt water.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I put this in, or do you

10 want to put it in? We're going to need another slide.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Are you adding more stuff,

12 Ashley?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jeff has a proposal.

14 MR. EISNER: With respect --

15 MR. BAUMAN: We've had some -- this is

16 Jeff Bauman from National again. We've had some

17 discussions as far as trying to help the process here

18 go along. We've had some discussions, Mary and

19 Charlie, myself, and Karim, about ways to try to come

20 with something that we could present that would

21 hopefully get us an answer on the pan heaters. So

22 we've got a proposal that
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Can you describe your

2 proposal?

3 MR. BAUMAN: Except for the fact that I just

4 handed it over and unfortunately, my computer's not

5 working right. Basically, that the pan heater should

6 start dry at the beginning of the entire test, with

7 the -- I mean, looking at ASHRAE 72, the entire test

8 includes, I'll say, several stages, basically a stage

9 where you are bringing it to stabilization; has to

10 remain in stabilized state for 24 hours; and then you

11 begin your actual data recording.

12 The proposal is at the beginning, the

13 initial start of the stabilization period prior to

14 that, the pan starts dry. At that point, it goes

15 through. It's going to be sucking water or whatever

16 condensate is going to be generated. That accumulates

17 in the pan.

18 When you start testing the pan, maybe it's

19 got special open units, pan may be full, but that'll

20 be a factor of what the unit's doing during your

21 stabilization in -- when you're achieving

22 stabilization going, you know, 24 hours. And you're
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1 going to run, you know, typically at least 48 hours by

2 the time that the unit has started going.

3 So rather than trying to add in something

4 that says, "Add a certain amount of water," this gives

5 it -- you know, standardized way to do it. There's,

6 you know, no questions for interpretation, things like

7 that. I just see a lot of concerns about -- you know,

8 I see more chances for a lab be confused by "what's

9 full mean." You know, "Oh, you filled the pan too

10 much," and things like that, versus saying "start dry

11 and let it accumulate." And, again, I believe that

12 simulates, you know, actual conditions and use more

13 accurately.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm cool

15 with that, but I do have one question. Not having

16 studied 72-2005, I assume it's mandating a specified

17 relative humidity in the test chamber.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Dry bulb and wet bulb

19 temperature, which will be the committed air specified

20 as part of the procedure.

21 MR. SACHS: In that case, it sounds like

22 it's simulating reality.
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1 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The only

2 thing that would be in question is if it was a very,

3 very large pan where it took more than 48 hours to get

4 it up to where it would be operational. That's the

5 only thing that could be different about it.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. Charlie,

7 am I to infer that manufacturers offer different sizes

8 of condensate pans in expectation of different

9 environments, or is this just one of these things

10 that's done to spec or

11 How does that look if you're a customer trying to

12 order a unit? Are you -- does your option list

13 include different condensate pan sizes or

14 MR. HON: Most units get a single pan design

15 for that -- fit in the space, and that's all you get.

16 There are occasions when we do adverse environment17 type pans where the pan is bigger than the standard

18 pan. Those are usually used with wicking kits, which

19 will allow increased evaporation because of that.

20 They're traditionally not used with heated drain pans

21 or pumps, but they do exist.

22 MR. SACHS: So I'm hearing something that's
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1 down in the noise (ph) of the less than 1 percent?

2 MR. HON: Way less than 1 percent.

3 MR. SACHS: That sure helps focus my

4 thoughts. Thank you.

5 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Any objections

6 to this approach? Any abstentions? Okay.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks to you guys for

8 working that out over the past two weeks. Appreciate

9 it.

10 MR. EISNER: Condensate pumps.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Condensate pumps. These pumps

12 defrost melt water to a remotely located drain. DOE

13 believes that these should be on during testing.

14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. These things

15 are exactly the same function as a heater. They work

16 the same way, so I don't believe there's really any

17 difference between the two in consideration.

18 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Any comments?

19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

20 National -- go ahead.

21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

22 Saying that the pump should be on, perhaps should be
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1 energized -- you don't want them actually running all

2 the time. You just want them able to run whenever

3 they're needed.

4 MR. BAUMAN: I -- this is Jeff Bauman from

5 National. I agree with Charlie in however you're

6 handling heaters, you could put them together, kind of

7 say pan heaters or pumps. I mean, I think in ASHRAE

8 72, they're basic accessory items, and they would both

9 be considered under the same group of accessories that

10 would need to be owned and operational during the

11 test. And the pump -- any pan and pump would be

12 emptied before they started initially.

13 MR. EISNER: Are we talking about merging

14 this, or are we talking about going with this

15 language?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Let's leave them separately

17 for these purposes. Obviously, we'll be doing a

18 proposed rule, and we'll see whether it works better

19 for the reg text to combine them or -- but this way,

20 we at least have recorded it as separate concepts.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, that's fine with me.

22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank again.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik --

2 MR. MYERS: Jeff just used, I think --

3 MR. SHEBIK: -- for condensate pan heaters,

4 change the word from "on" to "energized," because they

5 won't actually come on until your load or whatever

6 turns the heater on, heating element on.

7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

8 National. I mean, maybe the clarification is you just

9 copy what you've got for pan heaters and say the same

10 thing for the pumps. It's all in operation during the

11 entire test, blah, blah, blah.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so just add, I mean --

13 MR. BAUMAN: And your reservoir pan, yeah,

14 whatever should be --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can just add pumps

16 there. Just -- in the title, just say "and pumps,"

17 just for the purposes of -- and then if we need to

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff, Lochinvar. I think

19 energized and on could have the same meaning. I heard

20 enabled or operational --

21 MALE SPEAKER: Operational.

22 MR. KLEISS: -- I think would be preferable.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: You realize that when

2 these words go through the lawyer review process -- I

3 have no promise as to -- the intent will be

4 maintained, but

5 MR. BAUMAN: I have read enough of the long

6 regulations --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

8 MR. BAUMAN: -- that I can appreciate that.

9 MR. EISNER: Anybody know where we are?

10 MR. WEBBER: Can I ask, just for

11 clarification --

12 MR. EISNER: Any objections as it's been

13 changed?

14 MR. WEBBER: I had a -- can I ask one

15 question, Jeff?

16 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. WEBBER: Thanks. Collin Webber from

18 Navigant. I just had a question, if you could go back

19 to the pan heater that Jeff proposed. Just to be

20 consistent with the language of ASHRAE 72, I'm

21 curious. When you referred to the stabilization

22 period, are you referring to determine stabilization
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1 under 72, the actual period we're qualifying, or are

2 you referring to pull-down from room temperature?

3 MR. BAUMAN: Well, you have about -- pull4 downers, again, I call it stabilization. Basically,

5 the unit has to run until it's achieved equilibrium or

6 steady state, I think this is actually called, in the

7 test procedure.

8 MR. WEBBER: Okay. Because the

9 stabilization period is actually measured -- that's

10 the period where you're actually qualifying that it

11 has achieved steady state, and that doesn't include

12 the period that could be days, perhaps, beforehand

13 where you're pulling down from room temperature?

14 MR. BAUMAN: Correct.

15 MR. WEBBER: So I just wanted to make sure

16 that you're referring to the inclusion of the whole

17 thing, from when you plug it in.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

19 MR. WEBBER: Not just when you're taking

20 data for stabilization or for testing purposes.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, I'm considering the -- so

22 you have the stabilization while you're pulling down.
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1 Steady state is your 24 hours where you're maintaining

2 within, you know, a couple degrees your product

3 temperature.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you put pull-down and

5 stabilization?

6 MR. BAUMAN: And performance testing --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Including pull-down.

8 MR. BAUMAN: -- is when you're actually

9 recording --

10 MR. WEBBER: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. BAUMAN: -- recording.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Thank you.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other change? Everybody

14 okay now? Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay.

15 Let's go to the next one.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Still dealing with

17 features of commercial refrigeration equipment, high18 wattage doors. Manufacturers may add extra anti-sweat

19 power to doors for some applications, such as high

20 ambient temperature and humidity. DOE believes these

21 should be operational during the test. If a variable

22 controller is present, it should be utilized.
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1 Machines with an on/off switch, the feature should be

2 switched on.

3 MR. EISNER: Questions, comments?

4 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Could you

5 define "variable controller"?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why do we need to?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Like are you saying that we

8 need to actually define that, or are you just asking

9 for clarification?

10 MR. HON: I don't know exactly what you mean

11 by that.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, maybe -- I think we

13 could take out the word "variable." I mean, my

14 position here is if it has some type of controller

15 other than an on or off switch, that that controller

16 is able to be used. In other words, if you use some

17 type of controller which turns it on in certain

18 conditions rather than just a simple on/off switch,

19 then that controller would be used. And if the test

20 procedure conditions are such that they're -- it

21 doesn't require the use of, you know, these anti-sweat

22 heaters, then it would never be on during tests.
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1 MR. HON: Okay. That's why I wasn't sure of

2 what you meant, because some people would consider a

3 static type controller where you could adjust the heat

4 on the door as a controller with a turn knob, and

5 other people would not. That's why I was asking.

6 MR. SACHS: Ashley?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm just

9 enough of a cynic to say that the wording on variable

10 controllers should be utilized is an invitation to

11 doing an LG (ph), that that variable controller will

12 be carefully set so that the stipulated dry bulb and

13 wet bulb, it is not going to come on.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, as we were talking

15 about that, I was actually thinking the exact same

16 thing, and we will make sure to put in language that

17 makes it clear that this has to be for normal

18 operation. You can't set a special set point that

19 turns it on and off above and below, but, man, if

20 you're pegged at the test conditions, it turns off.

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And, Laura, I

22 shouldn't have used the metaphor the LG test, because
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1 this really only has to be one-sided. It just has to

2 be set so that at that dry bulb and wet bulb, it's not

3 being called as a user-set control, rather than

4 stipulating that it is on some fraction of the times,

5 since I'm not sure that the test conditions are

6 actually representative of use where CRE are

7 installed, in many cases. It may be that stuff would

8 run less in the drier environments of enhanced air

9 conditioning for supermarkets.

10 MR. THARP: There's already verbiage in 10

11 CFR 429 that --

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

13 MR. THARP: -- specifically states you can't

14 use software to get around test procedures.

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

16 MR. THARP: Right?

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

19 Should there be something in there that if it is a

20 user- adjustable device, that it should be set to

21 maximum, something like that, so that you don't have a

22 game plan with a variable set point?
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1 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with that

2 suggestion?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I was thinking -- I

4 was more thinking of something that was not a user5 adjustable knob. What? Did I confuse you? I'm okay

6 with that position.

7 MR. SACHS: I understand now.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So does anyone have an issue

9 with -- if it's a knob, basically it has to be set at

10 the beginning of the test. It doesn't react during

11 the test to the conditions in the room; that it would

12 be set to its full position. However, if you have one

13 that reacts to the position during the test; in other

14 words, it's some type of control mechanism internal to

15 the device, it's going to come on at varying

16 conditions, then that would be allowed to work as it

17 may.

18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

19 National. I'll agree with that. I think you just

20 want to use the word "adjustable controller" rather

21 than knob or anything that --

22 FEMALE SPEAKER: Right.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: You know, it could be a -- if

2 it's a slide, does that -- you know?

3 MALE SPEAKER: Push button.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can we use the word

5 "manual"? Can we use the word "manual" here, like ones

6 that will cover --

7 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, manually adjustable or --

8 yeah. Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Manually --

10 MR. HON: Unfortunately, I would question --

11 this is Charlie Hon again. I would question, because

12 a lot of the controllers nowadays will be programmed

13 by an operator, if they know what they're doing, with

14 simple pushing of buttons a few times and saying that

15 -- and you can set these things if you have an ambient

16 humidity control or an ambient temperature control

17 where you would bypass the test.

18 MR. EISNER: Is everybody looking and

19 focusing?

20 MR. HON: Because you can turn the --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think my -- so this is

22 Ashley. I think the Department's position on this one
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1 is if it has to be set, period, whether it's digitally

2 or manually, it's set in the most -- it's set in the

3 "on" position, the most consumptive position.

4 However, if you've gone to the trouble to

5 integrate some type of control mechanism that

6 automatically reacts with conditions of the

7 environment, then you should get credit for that.

8 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. That sounds

9 very, very reasonable. Thank you.

10 MR. EISNER: Everybody focusing on the

11 change? Is there any concern with the whole sentence?

12 For those on the phone, we're still making some

13 adjustment to the wording.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I like that.

15 MR. EISNER: All right. As changed. Any

16 questions, any concerns? Are there any objections or

17 abstentions?

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I will

19 abstain on this one. I am not yet comfortable with

20 the language.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Did everybody hear that?

22 All right. We have one abstention, no --
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1 MR. HUNT: Two abstentions, please.

2 Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

3 MR. EISNER: Two abstentions? All right.

4 Any objections? Anybody want to try to work out the

5 abstentions, or are you okay with where we are?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, before we go on, so

7 is your concern with the approach or with the

8 language?

9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. Laura,

10 I'm something of a generalist, and in my mind, the

11 ideal anti-sweat heater senses when any part of the

12 edge is starting to get some condensate, turns on the

13 heater just long enough for that to be evaporated, and

14 turns itself off.

15 That's what we would be looking for, and I'm

16 not yet sure that this thing is moving -- this

17 language is moving us toward that, and I'm not sure

18 yet that I'm hearing a consensus from the people who

19 really understand this equipment that this is not

20 going to be subject to some extreme variations in

21 interpretation.

22 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. My
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1 abstention is because I would like to have time, if

2 the group would allow me, to get a hold of the SoCal

3 Edison Refrigeration Lab. They've done an awful lot

4 of research on this, plus we in PG&E have a Food

5 Service Lab that looks at this. So I would want to,

6 before I voted, check with those experts.

7 MR. EISNER: How long would that take?

8 MR. HUNT: We could try right now.

9 MR. EISNER: I mean, we can --

10 MR. HUNT: I can try for tomorrow.

11 MR. EISNER: We could always come back to

12 this particular issue if it would get us through an

13 abstention.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: My understanding is that

15 abstentions are not nos, so --

16 MR. EISNER: That's right, correct.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- this would move forward.

18 MR. EISNER: We could move forward, but I --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would vote on it.

20 MR. EISNER: -- saying if we can get this

21 rid of later on, I don't think -- is there anybody who

22 would object going back to it then?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, no, I mean, I think if

2 -- abstentions are implied yeses. It's just not

3 saying yes, but it's not saying no. So the vote --

4 we're voting, and there's two abstentions. It's a

5 yes.

6 MR. SACHS: This --

7 MALE SPEAKER: Procedurally, yes.

8 MR. SACHS: John, this is Harvey, and

9 procedurally, I certainly agree with you. My hope

10 with an abstention instead of a no is to establish a

11 bookmark --

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

13 MR. SACHS: -- that says that we have not

14 closed this issue, because I think we agree on the

15 intent, but we're not yet sure --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine.

17 MR. SACHS: -- this is the language.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would just recommend

19 voting, and then if, for some odd reason, once you

20 guys have a chance to talk to them, if they have

21 additional clarifications or if you have additional

22 clarifications that you want to present to the group,
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1 bring it up at a later time. But that way, we can

2 vote and move forward if we need to.

3 MR. SACHS: Well, you said we did vote.

4 John said we did vote.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, well, John voted.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I heard two abstentions, and

7 so that's

8 MR. EISNER: Comment in the back of the

9 room?

10 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, Southern Store

11 Fixtures. One question I have, when you are testing a

12 case with doors with higher wattage heaters on it,

13 that's usually applicable to when you have a single

14 case. A lot of supermarket display cases are

15 manufactured, and someone else is controlling it,

16 including the heaters on it. So here we manufactured

17 a case, no controllers on. There's heaters on that

18 someone else is going to control. Now, how are you

19 going to test it? How I'm going to test it?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is the heat -- I mean, are

21 you asking if heaters get added once they're installed

22 in the field?
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1 MR. NESHAN: They are wired to a central

2 energy management system.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

4 that's a different issue, but if you have the heater

5 when the unit's shipped, it's got an on or off switch,

6 right?

7 MR. NESHAN: No, no, they don't. That's

8 what I'm saying. No, they don't.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have wires?

10 MR. NESHAN: There are wires for the

11 junction box --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

13 MR. NESHAN: -- where they take those wires

14 in someplace else.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the wires would --

16 the lab would have to turn it on for testing.

17 MR. NESHAN: So you're going to test the

18 high- wattage door in a 75-degree room, ambient, at 55

19 relative percent of humidity, when you don't need it?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: With them on.

21 MR. NESHAN: Excuse me, but that's

22 ridiculous.
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1 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

2 think I understand. Without the control telling it

3 when to turn on and off, isn't it running in just a

4 wide-open state?

5 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

6 MS. DANE: Okay. Then I'd have to agree

7 with him.

8 I mean, the test house guys are sitting

9 here. Maybe they can explain how they would keep it

10 from turning on and off and running in a real-life

11 condition, but I can't see where letting it run wide

12 open without the controller makes sense.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess I -- so if it's

14 shipped with wires, it's always -- is it always

15 connected to a controller that's responding to

16 environmental conditions? It's never connected to a

17 controller that just has a user-adjustable

18 MS. DANE: I think what he's saying is

19 there's different conditions. How does he know which

20 one you're going to run it?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. I mean, I

22 understand what he's saying; right? I'm trying to
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1 understand -- you guys ship these things with wires,

2 without the controller in some cases.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. We do not at National.

4 I don't -- Massoud, how frequent are products like

5 that -- how common are products like that?

6 MR. NESHAN: Well, these days, supermarkets,

7 they use a lot of electronic controls, energy

8 management system. They want to control cases,

9 individual cases. So there's a lot of very

10 sophisticated control system they're installing. They

11 ask us to wire the cases separately so they can turn

12 on the lights, on and off, based on the humidity, turn

13 on the defrost heaters on and on (sic). They do

14 things that it's out of our control. It is their

15 specification that we have to manufacture these cases

16 to.

17 Now, if I was manufacturing a two-door case,

18 a three-door case that was going to stand by itself,

19 the case has its own controller. For the supermarket,

20 these are all end-to-end display cases that --

21 controlled by someone else.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So can I ask Mike,
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1 how do you guys do it now? Not to put you on the spot

2 or anything.

3 MR. STEM: No, I mean, if it's not

4 controlled, if it's not shipped with controls, then we

5 would not test them with them on, unless it

6 specifically says that in the instructions. I mean,

7 right now, it's open.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the Department's position

9 on that would be that would be a loophole. That would

10 be an equitable test for those that are shipped with a

11 controller. We would like to see some type of

12 equitable way to test those, whether it be you need to

13 ship them with some type of method of the test -- you

14 know, the test lab being able to control them or being

15 able to turn them on or off.

16 MR. STEM: Or define --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it needs to be

18 equitable.

19 MR. STEM: Yeah. Or define the conditions,

20 when they come on. If they -- you know, if you could

21 define it, then you could definitely control it that

22 way, but -- without --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or we could also define a

2 default by you, I mean, where they -- it could be

3 represented.

4 MR. NESHAN: In answer to your question --

5 Neshan again. The conditions are 75, you know, 64-

6 degree wet bulb. That's it. That's -- as defined by

7 ASHRAE, and AHRI's accepted it, and DOE has accepted

8 it. That's the design conditions. Anything above

9 that, that should come on. Anything at that point or

10 below should not come on. I mean, if the test

11 facility wants to test it that way, it's already

12 predefined.

13 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

14 National. I think what you're really getting into

15 here is, again, under the conditions, if you think

16 about what the conditions are for the test or

17 whatever, what you'd almost have to define is that you

18 can't allow condensation to accumulate on the door or

19 the cabinet or excess. I mean, that's what the

20 heaters are there for. If, under those conditions or

21 whatever, you don't need heat to generate that, they

22 wouldn't normally be on in actual use or certain
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1 conditions, I mean, versus saying you need to be on or

2 off.

3 Again, it's characteristic to the

4 construction and the open cases, closed cases, you

5 know, those types of things, but I think that only

6 gets into which -- you know, whether there's going to

7 be condensation that you would have to normally get

8 rid of.

9 MS. BARHYDT: On these cases, is -- what is

10 your standard offering? Are you specially ordering

11 these because people are ordering it that way, or is

12 that just your standard way of offering the case?

13 MR. NESHAN: Our standard case is to run it

14 in the 75/55. They have to specify they want to run

15 it in the -- example, a case is going to go up to

16 Guam. The store doesn't even have air conditioning,

17 so they ask for additional heaters, and then they

18 control it. So we have to put additional heaters in

19 the case so when the summertime and the humidity's up,

20 they have to do something. I mean, but that's a

21 special customer spec and customer request. Standard

22 cases are 75/55 operating conditions. There's no
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1 extra heaters, nothing.

2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have one

3 other question here. We keep hearing about extra

4 heaters versus standard heaters, and that throws

5 another question into the entire formula, because

6 you're only trying to define high-wattage heaters here

7 when we really need to be defining all door heaters.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. But we can change the

9 category to be door heaters. All of them would be

10 included. There is no such thing as standard versus

11 not.

12 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. This is Jeff Bauman from

13 National, and we were thinking about that earlier and

14 that it really gets down to door heaters and heaters

15 around the door openings and such, how you manage

16 those, and that was obviously a concern previously

17 with EPA and, you know, coming to a unified standard

18 is, I think, going to help everybody out there.

19 But we would -- again, speaking to -- we

20 have some cases that customers want to -- in a large

21 facility, they want to wire in additional controllers.

22 It would be -- we would provide them guidance how to
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1 do the wiring or whatever, but for testing or

2 certifications or whatever, they would be operated

3 normally as if they were wired in as part of that

4 product or whatever. We wouldn't have wires, you

5 know, disconnected for the testing or anything.

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I

7 heard a discussion earlier that sounded like there

8 might be a suggestion that the heaters be operated

9 during the test as required to prevent condensate from

10 forming. Is that practical, or did I mishear that?

11 Because that would be one way to do it. They'll

12 operate as much as they need to operate. That would

13 encourage tighter seals and better insulation.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, my -- this is

15 Ashley from DOE. My interpretation of the discussion

16 is that for the units that -- I mean, that's how

17 they're designed, right? The units come with

18 controllers that are designed to do just that, that in

19 certain conditions which would generate condensate on

20 the doors, that they're designed to turn on. However,

21 if a unit is shipped without a controller to tell it

22 when to react, how -- what do you do during testing?
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1 And the question is we need a way -- what

2 we're stuck with here is finding a way such that the

3 unit that's shipped without a controller, that the lab

4 can control it in a manner that terms -- that makes

5 those heaters react when they're needed. I don't have

6 the answer to it, but we want to treat them equitably,

7 whether they're shipped with a controller or shipped

8 without. They're operated in the field with one.

9 MR. MYERS: Right. No, I agree.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if the controller's on or

11 off, it should just be on. If the controls are -- if

12 the controller is userable -- requires the user to set

13 a single position, then the user sets it, period. The

14 test lab says that.

15 If the controller varies with the

16 environmental conditions, whether it's shipped with

17 the unit or whether it's, you know, controlled using

18 this large energy management system, then it should be

19 controlled by the test lab in that manner. The only

20 outstanding issue is how does the test lab control it

21 if it doesn't get shipped with a controller?

22 MR. MYERS: Okay. All right.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I don't know the

2 products enough to know the answer to that. That's

3 what -- the answer we're looking for.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. This is Jeff Bauman from

5 National. I mean, the thing that hits me when you

6 talk about that is, you know, that could be in a

7 manufacturer's special instructions that, you know,

8 that model has some type of controllers. They -- you

9 know, they could say, "You have to order this

10 additional controller with it" or something.

11 I may be oversimplifying, but it sounds like

12 that would be the -- one of those conditions where you

13 have -- the manufacturer requires some type of

14 external wiring control for the humidity. You know,

15 maybe that's a way to do it.

16 MR. EISNER: Anybody have suggested

17 language?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, we can work out

19 the details of how. I mean, that's the generalized

20 position, those three things. If it's, you know -- I

21 think we have -- I have shaking heads, at least. You

22 can't see it on the phone, but we have general
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1 agreement under the overall intent. It's just a

2 matter of if the unit isn't shipped with a controller,

3 how does, you know, the Mikes of the room or -- how do

4 you guys control it when it's in your lab to make it

5 react like it would be, like it should be.

6 MR. STEM: And I think, you know, to go a

7 little further than that is how does it react in the

8 real world, and are -- is that the intended to

9 simulate that same, you know, percent duty cycle of

10 the -- or not?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's going --

12 MR. STEM: I mean, we can turn things on and

13 off or turn it on for the entire period, just, you

14 know, while wiring in some dummy switches or putting a

15 pit controller in it or however you want to do it,

16 however we decide to do it, but we still need to know

17 -- I guess conditions wasn't the right word last time

18 because I'm not talking about ambient, but, I mean,

19 percent run time or duty cycle or something like that.

20 We kind of need to know a little more.

21 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Suggestions on

22 language?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, another -- one idea

2 would be to -- for the purposes of coming up with a

3 rating and certification, you have to use some type of

4 controller. I assume you would have one that if we

5 asked to test that unit, we would get one. You know,

6 and it would more or less be a dummy controller for

7 the purposes of testing. When you ship it, you would

8 ship it out with the same control algorithm, but it

9 would be connected to a larger

10 MR. KOJACK: This is Mike Kojack with UL.

11 Couldn't we approach it with knowing how -- what the

12 wattage of the heaters are and then calculate the time

13 they would be on during the test and just give them a

14 penalty for it instead of actually trying to have some

15 kind of control system control it? Because you don't

16 really know exactly the end user, what controller

17 they're going to be using and what configuration

18 they're going to be setting it to run it at.

19 So, you know, how would you be able to test

20 it, you know, not knowing exactly what the -- you

21 know, the end user's controller's going to be or what

22 the settings are going to be at?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not going for end user

2 here, right? I mean, I think that's the key. We have

3 test procedure conditions, period. You have test

4 procedure conditions which, under however it's

5 controlled, however it was designed to operate, it's

6 either going to come on or off as needed. It may come

7 on sometimes, it may go off sometimes.

8 To Harvey's point, an ideal controller would

9 just come on enough to get rid of that condensate and

10 then go right back off. So what we're trying to do is

11 capture that.

12 MR. KOJACK: Yeah. That's what I'm saying

13 is, you know, if the end user has --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's a different between

15 a calculation and a verifiable method to test. Right?

16 MR. KOJACK: But if you put on a controller

17 that's very basic on this unit that's going to have a

18 very complicated controller, you're going to be

19 hurting their rating because it's going to be very

20 rudimentary. On/off, on/off. It's not going to --

21 MR. RIVEST: Excuse me. Do you always have

22 a case with -- so having a controller is something
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1 that's available on our products. If we only tested

2 products that have your controller built in, that way

3 we would avoid having any calculations. It would be

4 based on your determination of when a heater has to

5 come on for your case. That would -- that's the

6 energy that would be consumed. You understand what

7 I'm saying?

8 MR. KOJACK: I don't know what -- are you

9 asking a question? I don't make cases.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, he doesn't. He's a

11 test lab. So

12 MR. RIVEST: So you ship products without

13 controllers, and you ship products with controllers.

14 The product that's shipped with a controller is what

15 you have figured is the best way to operate your

16 product. So if we were just to test products with

17 controllers and product that doesn't have a controller

18 would be -- would test it. I mean, it would be the

19 same as -- so long as there's a product identical with

20 a controller, then there's no concern.

21 MR. NESHAN: This is Neshan again. Let me

22 clarify something. I mean, we went from high-wattage
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1 heaters to just door heaters. There are certain cases

2 that, even under 75/55, must have heaters. Those are

3 going to be on. It's not designed for -- to come on

4 when it gets to 60 percent relative humidity. It is

5 on.

6 Now, some people might have devices to turn

7 it off if the humidity drops below 40 percent or

8 whatever. That's for energy savings they have. But

9 since we test these cases under 75/55, and if those

10 heaters must be on, they're going to be on. That's

11 how the case is designed.

12 The question is when you have to go to a

13 high humidity or ambient conditions that are not

14 design conditions, that's really the question.

15 MR. RIVEST: But it is a question? Because

16 the test procedure doesn't simulate those extreme

17 conditions.

18 MR. NESHAN: But here's -- that's what I'm

19 saying. Because when we test these cases, you're

20 always at 75/55. So those heaters, those extra

21 wattage heaters, should not come into use, period.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's fine, as long as
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1 --

2 MR. RIVEST: Correct. So we don't --

3 MR. NESHAN: So whether the test lab has the

4 capability or not -- has or not --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's no issue there.

6 That's not an issue.

7 MR. NESHAN: I know that's not the issue,

8 but the issue is so if they maintain a 70/55 (sic),

9 that thing should not come on, period. Okay?

10 MR. RIVEST: Unless you ship it without a

11 controller.

12 MR. NESHAN: Well --

13 MR. RIVEST: Right?

14 MR. NESHAN: Correct. As I said --

15 MR. RIVEST: In that case, there's two

16 choices: either you supply the controller that you

17 would normally for the purposes of the test, or it'll

18 be short-circuited. That happens all the time.

19 MR. NESHAN: The problem is I don't

20 manufacture those controllers. I don't even deal with

21 those controllers. Someone else supplies it. I have

22 nothing to do with it.
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1 MR. RIVEST: You never ship cases with

2 controllers?

3 MR. NESHAN: No, sir.

4 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

5 Sometimes the test labs have a simulator already built

6 to the test procedure. I mean, each lab is different,

7 so take that with a grain of salt, but they are able

8 to simulate conditions if they had -- if there was

9 some way that that would be one of the things that

10 were required, that it be set up to be able to

11 simulate a board like he's discussing, you know, a

12 management system, that that would assure --

13 MR. RIVEST: I don't think simulating a

14 management system is an issue here. We're not trying

15 to do that. We're just trying to replicate the energy

16 use of the product in test conditions with a

17 controller that would normally be there.

18 MS. DANE: I'm just hearing him say that he

19 doesn't want to get into the habit -- he doesn't

20 either want to have his cabinets hardwired, or he

21 doesn't want to -- he doesn't have the ability to ship

22 it with a control, and he doesn't want to be penalized
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1 by having to wire it direct. That's, I think, what

2 I'm hearing.

3 MR. NESHAN: I don't even manufacture the

4 door. Someone else makes the door. We just put it on

5 our case. I have no clue what -- how they are going

6 to control it. Someone else does the control. You

7 see what I'm saying?

8 MR. RIVEST: No.

9 MS. DANE: I see.

10 MR. NESHAN: Okay. Then you have --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean --

12 MR. RIVEST: Well, you're a manufacturer of

13 what?

14 MR. NESHAN: A refrigerator. Okay?

15 MR. RIVEST: Without doors?

16 MR. NESHAN: With or without doors, but the

17 doors, we don't manufacture the glass doors and all

18 that. That stuff comes from someplace else.

19 MR. RIVEST: But you assemble a fully

20 functional product that you rate --

21 MR. NESHAN: Correct.

22 MR. RIVEST: -- right?
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1 MR. NESHAN: And we design it for 75/55. We

2 design it for 75/55, period. Okay? Now, if someone

3 else wants to run it at higher ambient conditions,

4 that's their business.

5 MR. RIVEST: Nobody wants to run it at

6 higher ambient conditions.

7 MR. NESHAN: No, as I said, there are places

8 that they do because they cannot control their air

9 conditioning system.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But what we're trying to

11 tell you here is that the test procedure conditions

12 are what they are. They're not going to -- we're not

13 going to run your case at higher ambient conditions

14 just to see if a controller comes on. What we are

15 saying is under the test procedure conditions, we need

16 to be able to control that heater. The lab needs to

17 be able to engage the heater, as it would be

18 operational, under the exact test procedure and

19 conditions in the field.

20 MR. NESHAN: Then the labs better be

21 prepared and be equipped to do those kind of testing.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I --
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1 MR. NESHAN: The burden should be on the

2 test lab, not on us, then.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to rate your

4 equipment.

5 MR. NESHAN: We rate equipment --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are you going to do?

7 MR. NESHAN: -- at 75/55, period, not at 65,

8 not at 85, or anything else. If that needs to be

9 tested at a higher conditions, that would be their --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we move on from

11 this. This is our language. There's no testing at

12 other conditions. The test procedure conditions are

13 what they are. But the question still remains about

14 how -- I think at this point, the best idea the

15 Department's heard is that if you can't supply a

16 controller with your unit to make it functionally work

17 at the test procedure conditions, then the heater

18 should be short-circuited to be on.

19 MR. SACHS: I object to the term "short20 circuited."

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, okay. That's fine. I

22 don't know what -- that language --
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1 MALE SPEAKER: Wired, maybe.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hardwired. That's fine.

3 MR. BAUMAN: She got away with user ability.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fine. It will be on. I

5 don't think my lawyers would give that language --

6 MR. SACHS: It wasn't your word.

7 MR. EISNER: We have a comment from Bruce

8 Hailmeyer. "At 00, we have customers of remote

9 equipment that use storewide controls to reduce

10 energy. It would be a waste of resources to provide an

11 individual control on the case and provide a storewide

12 control in the store."

13 MR. RIVEST: They could just supply the

14 control for the purposes of the test.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They buy one. One.

16 MS. DANE: Why can't the test labs have

17 that? I mean, why do we have to --

18 MR. RIVEST: They can.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't regulate the test

20 labs.

21 MR. RIVEST: It has not been specified --

22 MS. DANE: Oh, I understand that, but I
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1 think they should have the equipment to perform the

2 testing correctly.

3 MR. RIVEST: No.

4 MR. SACHS: Ashley, I'm -- this is Harvey,

5 and I'm finding myself sympathetic to Mary's point

6 that if it's shipped without a controller, I don't

7 understand why the test lab can't simulate that

8 controller.

9 MS. DANE: They simulate all kinds of tests

10 for us now. If they're -- if they can -- if they are

11 ISO-1725 to do certain test standards, they are able

12 to simulate certain controls, so why not be assured

13 that they can run this one? Why do we have to go out

14 and invest and send it and then hope the test lab

15 sends it back to us in good working condition? I mean

16

17 MR. STEM: This is Mike with Intertek. We

18 have plenty of PID controllers, cascade and loop. We

19 can simulate --

20 MS. DANE: Right.

21 MR. STEM: -- any energy management system

22 you want. The problem is do you want me to turn that
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1 heater on at the test conditions, below the test

2 conditions, above the test conditions? I need to know

3 when you want me to turn that on, and if that's not

4 documented somewhere --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't want you to turn it

6 on.

7 MR. RIVEST: Mike, Mike. No, all we want is

8 for the thing to come on and come off during the test,

9 that test conditions. Right? My suggestion was they

10 supply a controller for those people who don't have

11 energy management systems, but that controller be used

12 because it's the controller that the manufacturer has

13 decided --

14 MR. STEM: Right, and it's going to have

15 those

16 --

17 MR. RIVEST: -- will work well.

18 MR. STEM: And it's going to have those

19 points --

20 MR. RIVEST: And what I'm saying is if --

21 MR. STEM: -- programmed in.

22 MR. RIVEST: -- if a unit is selected for
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1 tests, there can be some collaboration here, some

2 communication with the manufacturer so that you're

3 using correct -- you know, the correct controller.

4 MR. KOJACK: This is Mike Kojack with UL,

5 but --

6 MR. RIVEST: We're not asking there be a

7 control on every unit built.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: What we're essentially

9 asking is the manufacturer decide the control scheme

10 for their heaters.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: In other words, we're not

13 asking you to do it. The Department's not doing it.

14 The manufacturer is electing the control scheme for

15 their unit, and that's what -- how the wattage gets

16 accounted. That's the issue.

17 MR. STEM: I agree with that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I realize I can give you

19 any test conditions, and you can turn on any test

20 conditions. The question is what should those --

21 whether it should be on or off. And we see that as a

22 manufacturer decision.
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1 MR. STEM: Correct. Yeah, that's all I was

2 saying whenever they said that, you know, the lab

3 should have the ability to simulate the energy

4 management systems.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

6 MR. STEM: We can. However, we don't know -

7 -

8 MR. KOJACK: The test procedure doesn't --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not --

10 MR. KOJACK: -- provide for that.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And I'm not asking

12 you to control their unit for them. They have a

13 control scheme that it's offered with. I realize that

14 when it's installed in the field, it may be operated

15 under a variety of different operational points and a

16 variety of different control schemes. What we're

17 asking is what do you offer?

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. From

19 outside of the industry, I have a question about these

20 doors. Are there designs to the doors that make them

21 less prone to the fogging or issues that would affect

22 the controls or power consumption needed for the doors
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1 to be clear?

2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I've got

3 several comments I've been holding back. Since we

4 really don't have any horses in this race, I'm trying

5 to avoid this topic, but there are certain definitions

6 we haven't discussed. Number one is that the

7 objective of the door heater is to have the door,

8 after it's been open for some short period of time,

9 where there's condensate on the inside of the door, to

10 remove that condensate in some reasonable window of

11 time so that the next customer, when they walk up to

12 the door, can see product therein.

13 That can be done one of several ways. Door

14 construction is one of the ways you can do it because

15 if a door is constructed with very, very good

16 insulation, it is going to sweat more than a door with

17 bad insulation because the delta T of the glass, when

18 you put a cold glass in a warm environment, by opening

19 the door, there's going to be condensation on it if

20 it's cold. Number two issue is how long is long

21 enough between the door closing and removal of the

22 viewing obstruction, of the fog?
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1 Number three is there's a plastic sheeting

2 in the market today which is put on the inside of

3 doors that's very expensive, but it also reduces the

4 amount of fog, you know, on the door by making the

5 surface conditions different. So there's a lot of

6 games that can be played here, but we still have to

7 find what this means.

8 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo with

9 Earthjustice, and I have a question that maybe just

10 reflects that I'm not understanding this issue. The

11 Department frequently has issues in test procedures

12 where you follow the manufacturer's instructions for

13 setup, and that sounds like what we're -- the

14 direction we're heading with products that are sold

15 without controllers.

16 But if I'm a manufacturer and I never ship a

17 product with a controller and you're asking me to give

18 you set points for if you hook up a controller to it,

19 when should that controller activate the door heaters,

20 it seems like it's in my interest to say, well, you

21 activate the door heaters pretty much never, and the

22 unit will just sit there during the test, completely
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1 fogged up, and I'm never going to sell that control to

2 a customer, so it's no skin off my nose if they fog up

3 the entire test, because that's not really

4 representative of how it's going to run in the field.

5 So I'm just wondering if that's a danger here.

6 MR. EISNER: All right. We've got a comment

7 or suggestion from Ed Westoff (ph). With a fridge,

8 they use max heat in one portion of the test, then

9 shut off and average between the two. Why not include

10 this test approach?

11 Your response?

12 Okay. Well, I suggest we take about a ten13 minute break, come back, and decide how we want to

14 handle this issue. Maybe somebody will come up with

15 some perfect wording. Come back about 11:30.

16 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

17 MR. EISNER: All right. The countdown

18 starts now. You have 30 seconds to get to your seat.

19 All right. Raise your hand if you have a

20 suggestion for resolving the problem we had before the

21 break. Anybody work it out during the break? All

22 right. Well, Ashley's got something she's put up on
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1 the screen I'll let her talk about.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. Well, I just kicked the

3 can. So I defined -- this is Ashley from DOE. So I

4 defined the -- the way that we see it, there are three

5 options. There's a machine with a manual control,

6 there's a machine with a user-selectable setting

7 control, which is digital, and then there's a machine

8 with an automatic controller, right, that adjusts on

9 and off to environmental conditions.

10 So I obviously characterized those three

11 with how they should be used, and then the outstanding

12 issue would be how will DOE test units if they're not

13 shipped with a controller from the point of

14 manufacture? And we're going to have to deal with

15 that through notice and comment anyway, so I just said

16 DOE will initiate a process to address it, if that's -

17 -

18 MR. SHEBIK: Ashley, this is Ron Shebik from

19 Hussmann. Okay. So I understand fully, and the rest

20 of the people on the phone, I guess, understand. What

21 -- when you say DOE will initiate a process to address

22 how units should be tested, what exactly do you mean
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1 by that? What steps are you going to take -- are

2 taken by that?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's just going to be some

4 type of notice and comment. So you're going to be

5 able to -- it will either be proposed guidance,

6 testing guidance, or a proposed rule for the test

7 procedure, but both will be open for comment.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So in the meantime,

9 while this is being discussed, can we assume those

10 configurations that fall under that category are not

11 subject to any kind of testing at this time?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Right now we have no

13 exclusions, period, to what DOE could test.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Keep in mind, though -- this

15 is Laura from DOE. Keep in mind that at this point,

16 there's not even a complete package recommendation to

17 go to the ASRAC. We'll have to do a Notice of

18 Proposed Rulemaking. So it's not like there's not

19 going to be some time before anything in this -- that

20 we're discussing today would actually go into the

21 regulations.

22 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. But at the same
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1 time, there is this deadline of December 31st, right?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

3 MR. AMRANE: What needs to happen between

4 now and then? I mean

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have to agree. That's

6 the first thing.

7 MR. AMRANE: Well, but we're saying that we

8 -- DOE's going to address it, but at the same time,

9 manufacturers have to rate their products and have to

10 submit it to DOE by December 31st.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. We will have to -- I

12 mean, we need to go through all this and see where we

13 have agreement to send to ASRAC, and then the December

14 31st issue will be the last thing on the table to deal

15 with.

16 MR. EISNER: And the last bullet could be

17 changed to language that says -- the last dash,

18 actually -- "If units are shipped with a -- not

19 shipped with a controller from the point of

20 manufacture, it shall be tested in accordance with a

21 process that ensures a level playing field."

22 Something along those lines, that DOE might have to
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1 issue guidance, but that would be their objective, as

2 I understand it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. That's exactly

4 correct.

5 MR. EISNER: If you're more comfortable with

6 that language, I'm assuming that DOE would be willing

7 to put it in.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

9 MR. EISNER: It's just they're looking for

10 help, as I hear it, on how to test them in way that

11 ensures a level playing field.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Assure -- assures.

13 MR. EISNER: Not saying that they disagree

14 with the problems that have been raised. They're

15 simply saying, how do we determine the playing field

16 is level, if those devices are not going to be better

17 off or worse off than the first three bullets that are

18 up there?

19 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. And the

20 first bullet is not mandatory language.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it mandatory currently;

22 is that what you're asking?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: No. Adjust the -- machines

2 that have a manual control must be turned on.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Instead of can.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Change can to must.

6 MR. EISNER: Did you hear that, Charlie?

7 MR. HON: Yes, I see it.

8 MR. EISNER: Now --

9 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National.

10 What's the difference between manual and user

11 selectable?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: In my mind, I differentiate

13 those between something that's like a knob or

14 physically you do versus something that you like key

15 in on a digital display, but maybe there's not.

16 That's what I was thinking of. I don't know if those

17 are the right words.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. My mind, it -- on/off

19 would come under user selectable, but that's my mind.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you don't think we need

21 the first one? You think the second one takes care of

22 it all?
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1 MR. BAUMAN: I would think so. Again --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. BAUMAN: -- Charlie and the other folks

4 that are out there can

5 MR. HON: This is Charlie. That makes

6 perfectly good sense.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. One of

8 the advantages of being fairly shallow, but broad, is

9 when I think about analogs and other rating methods,

10 one of them stimulated by conversation with Judd is a

11 procedure called the degradation coefficient in a

12 central air conditioner proceeding, which basically

13 says here's the default value, which in this case

14 would be some fraction of hours of the test times the

15 wattage -- total wattage of the heaters, and we're

16 going to use that unless you, as a manufacturer,

17 present us with a better alternative for your

18 particular unit.

19 That would seem to meet some of the level

20 playing field issues and seem to encourage innovation.

21 It would seem to be adaptable to the maximum range of

22 products. Now, if you all don't like this, blame
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1 Judd.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's pretty

3 similar to what Mike was suggesting earlier, that we

4 use a default of it's on because that's the default

5 for the ones, but, yes.

6 MR. SACHS: It's different in kind from the

7 -- this is Harvey again -- in that it suggests that

8 it's not running open, on, through the entire test

9 procedure.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand.

11 MR. SACHS: But I think, Ashley, that's a

12 pretty important difference, because if, in fact, the

13 default controller's on 25 percent of the time instead

14 of 90 percent of the time, it makes an enormous

15 difference in how things are handled. It's an idea.

16 It's something that works with your processes with

17 providing guidance or procedure. It seems to me that

18 Judd had a good idea, and I wanted to make sure, since

19 he's shy, that we did get it out there.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's fair to note in

21 this CCD (ph) calculation, though, that is a pretty

22 conservative number. I mean, there's a pretty good
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1 push to run that test because you get, in the most

2 case, a better CCD every time you run that test.

3 MR. SACHS: Aw, schucks. I never thought

4 they would have realized that.

5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

6 National. It seems like the second bullet under there

7 is sort of incomplete. The first one talks about

8 whether it's user-selectable, saying it must be turned

9 on, and the second one just says with an automatic

10 controller that turns on and off based on environment.

11 It just should be running, and it's automatic. And I

12 would also say too that's a automatic, non-adjustable,

13 or non-user-adjustable.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So an automatic non15 user-adjustable controller. And then should be --

16 MALE SPEAKER: Be operational.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Must be operating in

18 its automatic state, or I don't know what the right

19 words are, but I think that gets the gist across.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: The lawyers are going to

21 change that to "shall." I know it.

22 MS. BARHYDT: No, actually.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Really?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll have a lawyer fight.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Every "must" becomes

4 "shall."

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That'll be like a "We need

6 to meet."

7 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this?

8 MR. BAUMAN: All right. Third bullet too, I

9 guess, under -- I think that if a unit is not shipped

10 with a controller from the point of manufacture, I

11 think -- again, understanding this is going to be

12 worked out later, but it's really the unit is not

13 shipped with controller, but is tended to use a

14 controller or whatever. I think that's the third

15 condition that we're talking about, not just -- not

16 shipped with a controller, because it

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if it's not shipped with

18 a controller and intended to be used with a controller

19 --

20 MR. BAUMAN: Yes.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Change -- put the "and

22 intended" after "manufacture." Yeah. "With the
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1 controller." Yeah, that's good. Thank you.

2 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

3 MR. SMITH: Could you make that a bullet?

4 Could you say three options?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

6 MALE SPEAKER: Make it a bullet?

7 MR. SMITH: Make it a third option.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Make it a sub.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Okay. I'm sorry.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a sub bullet. Just

11 match it up to machines.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. It's currently on the

13 screen again. Does anybody object? Does anybody

14 still abstain? Two abstentions. Okay. I think we're

15 ready to move on to the next slide.

16 MS. BARHYDT: UV lights. Customers may

17 specify ultraviolet lights to use to neutralize

18 pathogens in the case. DOE proposes to issue guidance

19 that UV lights do not need to be turned on for the

20 test.

21 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

22 National. That's fine.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Any

2 objections? Any abstentions? Okay. Let's go to the

3 next one.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Illuminated temperature

5 displays and alarms. Illuminated displays provide

6 visual information on case temperature. Alarms notify

7 operators if case temperature falls out of the

8 specified range. These features should be enabled

9 during the test.

10 MR. EISNER: Comments? Any objections? Any

11 abstentions?

12 All right. Next issue.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Condenser flour filters.

14 They're nonpermanent filters on condensers that

15 prevent particulates, such as flour, from blocking the

16 condenser coil and reducing airflow. DOE suggests

17 issuing guidance to indicate that filters should be

18 removed during testing. And this is removal of the

19 flour filters, not removal of all filters.

20 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Questions? Does

21 anybody object? Anybody abstain?

22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have --
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1 MR. EISNER: Charlie?

2 MR. HON: -- a question. Why do we put the

3 word "flour" in the heading? Because you're assuming

4 that that filter is a flour filter. It's just a

5 filter.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

7 MS. BARHYDT: We have "such as flour."

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we have "such as

9 flour." If -- basically --

10 MR. HON: Okay. "Such as flour" doesn't

11 bother me at all.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: Right, so --

13 MALE SPEAKER: It's just that heading.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's just the heading, so

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the position too,

16 yeah.

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

19 MR. EISNER: Any other questions? Any

20 objections? Any abstentions? Okay. Refrigeration

21 system.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Refrigeration system security
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1 covers. These are straps or other devices used to

2 secure the condensing unit sled. DOE suggests issuing

3 guidance to indicate that refrigeration system

4 security covers should be removed for testing.

5 MR. EISNER: Comments?

6 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

7 National. Can we remove the word "sled"? Some --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Any objections?

10 Any abstentions? Okay. Night curtains/covers.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Night curtains and covers.

12 Night curtains or covers can be pulled down over a

13 case to reduce infiltration and energy consumption

14 during periods when shoppers are not present. This is

15 fully addressed by the test procedures currently

16 written. DOE does not believe any guidance or

17 clarification is needed.

18 MR. EISNER: Questions? Comments?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Voting?

20 MR. SACHS: I have no vote.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It's already in the test

22 procedures.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is what it is.

2 MR. EISNER: Just making sure it is. Okay.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Grille options. Special

4 grilles are used to direct airflow in unique

5 applications, such as up and away from a rear wall.

6 DOE will issue guidance that, if present, nonstandard

7 grilles would be removed for testing.

8 MR. EISNER: Objections, questions,

9 concerns? Any objections? Any abstentions? Next

10 issue is coated coils.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Coated coils. Coatings may be

12 added to coils to provide protection from harsh

13 environments, such as where oxidizers or acids are

14 present. All types of coils are eligible for testing.

15 MR. EISNER: Questions, comments?

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I just wanted to

17 clarify that this means that -- put the coil in and

18 test it as it sits, and that's what it is?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Ashley said yes.

21 MR. HON: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Any objections?
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1 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with

2 Goodman. Just clarifying that all these are presently

3 CRE accessories; correct?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, the CRE is up at the

5 top.

6 MR. THARP: Okay. Thank you.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you anticipating what's

8 coming for -- are you getting ready?

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do a copy/paste on that.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections? Any

11 abstentions? Okay. Internal secondary coolant

12 circuits.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Internal secondary coolant

14 circuits, it's a design featuring an internal circuit

15 containing a secondary working fluid which is cooled

16 by expansion of refrigerant from a remote condensing

17 unit. The test -- existing test procedure provides a

18 method of tests for these, so DOE doesn't see any need

19 for additional guidance.

20 MR. EISNER: Anybody disagree with that?

21 Okay. Next issue.

22 MR. SACHS: Whoa, whoa. You caught me as I
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1 was hitting my button. I think it may be more

2 inclusive to just say "is cooled by a remote

3 condensing unit," because this may conceivably be an

4 absorption unit in some cases.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. I mean, our

6 position -- we -- so this resulted from the day we had

7 the CRE working group separate thing, and somebody

8 just had a question about how something was tested,

9 and we clarified it pretty -- so I don't expect you to

10 see this in any reg text or anything.

11 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Wedge cases?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Wedge cases are cases that fit

15 between two other cases to fill a gap, such as a

16 corner, in a continuous case lineup. They may require

17 air spillover from adjacent cases to meet design

18 temperatures. The current test procedure requires

19 that the wedge case must be tested and must meet the

20 standards individually. If the test procedure is not

21 representative of the energy use of the wedge case,

22 manufacturers should seek a test procedure waiver
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1 under our existing waiver regulations.

2 MR. EISNER: Any questions, comments?

3 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. This is Ron Shebik with

4 Hussmann. The question I have for Laura is I spoke to

5 some other manufacturers who were involved with the

6 DOE -- I guess the decision-making through Navigant

7 before I was involved with it with this topic, and

8 from speaking to some other manufacturers, I was given

9 the impression, or basically -- or they had the

10 impression that Navigant understood that wedge cases

11 must be tested with a parent case and could not be

12 tested by themselves, could not be tested

13 individually.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's not the

15 Department's position. We've articulated our

16 position. And I'm pretty sure that's not Navigant's

17 position.

18 MALE SPEAKER: We're not allowed to have --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Speaking from a --

20 MR. SHEBIK: The problem is if the DOE were

21 to order a wedge case and try to run a test, it's not

22 going to work, not without the parent cases attached
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1 to it.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then you should have a test

3 procedure waiver, period. I mean, it's going to work.

4 It's just not going to meet the standard.

5 MR. SHEBIK: It's not going to meet the

6 standard, correct.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

8 MR. SHEBIK: You're not going to be able to

9 get the temperatures that you need to get in order to

10 run the test.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you need to have a test

12 procedure waiver.

13 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Thank you.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it can be -- you can

15 work with them if you want to come up with a common

16 test procedure waiver, but each manufacturer will have

17 to apply individually, but they can use a common

18 methodology.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. I think that's

21 maybe what we'll have to do, but at the same time, you

22 need to realize that when DOE did the rulemaking,
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1 whatever DOE did, whatever Navigant did, they used

2 energy (inaudible) that really can only work if they

3 are attached to something else. So we will do that,

4 but (inaudible) should realize that's how the rule was

5 established.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. And what

7 we're trying to tell you is that this is what our regs

8 require right now, and we're -- this is the way we

9 work with you to get to the position that you need to

10 be in.

11 MR. EISNER: Any other concerns? Nobody

12 objects to the fact that there is no vote needed here?

13 Okay. Next issue.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Misting systems. Misting

15 systems dispense a water mist, which is used to

16 maintain quality of products, such as fresh produce.

17 DOE will issue guidance indicating that misting

18 systems should be inactive during test.

19 MR. EISNER: Comments? Any objections? Any

20 abstentions?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Looks like we've got --

22 MR. NESHAN: One comment. I understand
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1 misting system, but some people refer to it as also

2 humidification system. Should that be part of it;

3 misting, slash, humidification system?

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's the same thing.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're external sprayers.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So humidification, it's an

7 external sprayer, same sort of --

8 MR. NESHAN: Well, it --

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- functionality.

10 MR. NESHAN: There's a setting, like the

11 misting system that you're referring, like in the

12 produce display case.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

14 MR. NESHAN: In the seafood case, they

15 wouldn't do that. They would refer to it as a

16 humidification system. They don't call it misting

17 because they don't want water particles to drop on the

18 fish. So it's a different description.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Any

21 objections? Any abstentions?

22 Next issue, air purifiers?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Air purifiers remove

2 contaminants from recirculated case air. DOE will

3 issue guidance indicating that air purifiers should

4 not be active during test.

5 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Any objections?

6 Any abstentions? Okay. Next issue, general-purpose

7 outlets.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Some cases contain additional

9 electrical outlets, which can be used to power

10 additional equipment, such as scales or slicers. DOE

11 will issue guidance indicating that general-purpose

12 outlets should not be energized during test. However,

13 any losses from added components due to the presence

14 of a general-purpose outlet would be counted.

15 MR. EISNER: Any concerns?

16 MS. BARHYDT: That doesn't read right.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, this clarifies your

18 question, or I attempted to clarify it this morning in

19 my sleepy state. So it may not read correctly for the

20 purposes of what we want to put in rule language, but

21 I think you might better understand the intent now.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, thanks. That's good
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1 clarification. I was going to raise a question on

2 this one. So this means that if this is a 230 volt --

3 if the equipment's 230 volt and it has 115 volt

4 general- purpose outlet with a transformer in there,

5 then the transformer power would be included in the

6 test, right? Okay. I understand.

7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

8 National, just suggesting we -- instead of saying the

9 outlet would not be energized, that there would be no

10 load connected to it, so you're --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Better? That's better.

12 MR. EISNER: Yeah, good.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: After that, that no load be

14 connected to the general-purpose outlet. Go up to the

15 other one. There you go. Thank you.

16 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other comments? Any

17 objections to this? Any abstentions? Okay. Next

18 issue.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Crankcase heaters. These

20 heaters keep the compressor warm in order to maintain

21 the refrigerant inside at optimal conditions when

22 operating at low ambient temperatures. Should be
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1 active during test. If they have a control system, it

2 should be used.

3 MR. EISNER: Comments? Any objections?

4 Harvey?

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I guess I'm

6 just a little confused. Almost all CRE is designed

7 for indoor placement, as I understand it. So what

8 applications are using crankcase heaters?

9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Harvey, it

10 is rare, but it does happen. We do make outside

11 units. They're usually in fairly warm environments

12 outside, but it does happen, but it is very rare, but

13 they use a very, very rudimentary controller system.

14 So I think that we may want to consider putting in

15 there "set to activate below 50 degrees Fahrenheit" or

16 something, because I don't want somebody to come in

17 and say, "Well, it needs to be on below 70 -- below 80

18 degrees Fahrenheit." It just doesn't work.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That wouldn't be a test.

20 MR. HON: Yeah, but during the test, it'll

21 never happen.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But so it should have
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1 whatever control scheme it normally has.

2 MR. HON: Well, those are usually manually

3 adjustable, and we don't know what they're going to be

4 set at.

5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

6 National. I think, again, we're getting into the

7 wording, you know, operational during the test as

8 opposed to -- it doesn't have to be energized or

9 rolling or whatever. It just has to be operational if

10 it has a control system it would utilize.

11 MR. HON: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it doesn't --

13 MR. HON: That would be absolutely correct.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Sorry?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it doesn't have a control

16 system --

17 MR. BAUMAN: If it has a -- I'm sorry. Did

18 I say it wrong?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: If -- no, I'm asking. What

20 is the position if it does not?

21 MR. BAUMAN: And it's going to be on in the

22 75 -- then it would be on. You might not need, but
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1 your -- again, a product --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: How would you know, if it's

3 just on or off?

4 MR. BAUMAN: How would you know if it's on

5 or off?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I mean, if --

7 so say it doesn't -- and I don't know -- maybe I

8 missed -- so --

9 MR. BAUMAN: Again, I think -- I don't want

10 to get -- not to interrupt, but if these are -- again,

11 with Charlie, these are very oddball cases. I mean,

12 you have somebody in Minnesota that wants a -- to put

13 their refrigerator outside in their garage for the

14 winter, and they run it all year round, so you might

15 actually need that crankcase heater for the cold

16 weather times, and you would have, you know, a control

17 system, basically, so you're not running that heat,

18 obviously, all year round, but if it doesn't -- if you

19 didn't -- for some reason if you did it and you had it

20 running all the time, it didn't have -- which would be

21 odd.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would just be on.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: You know, most cases, it would

2 have a control.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Otherwise you'll overheat the

5 compressor.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Any objections

8 to this language? Any abstentions?

9 Okay. Next issue.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Added or varied liner

11 material may be added to the inside and/or outside of

12 the case. The thermal impact of any type of liner

13 would be captured by the current DOE test procedures,

14 so we don't believe any further guidance is necessary.

15 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to that

16 approach?

17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. That would

18 effectively create a new base model, wouldn't it?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could. It wouldn't have

20 to. You could group it with the least efficient one,

21 but, yeah.

22 MR. HON: Right. Okay.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

2 MR. HON: So you could create a new base

3 model?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

5 MR. EISNER: Next issue?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So CRE, we're done.

7 MR. NESHAN: There was something missing.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We were done.

9 MR. NESHAN: This is Neshan. If you recall

10 at the last meeting we had, we discussed a crankcase

11 pressure regulator to be off the list?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to explain what

13 it is? Because none of us have a recollection of

14 that.

15 MR. NESHAN: Okay. It's a mechanical device

16 that has been installed on a condensing unit for

17 pressure in areas that the power companies cannot

18 provide quality power. The voltage drops, and they

19 have to -- we have to put this device to force the

20 higher pressure. The compressor has to work under

21 higher pressure in order to compensate for the poor

22 quality of power. And we see that quite in Florida.
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1 The customers ask us to push this device. I think we

2 discussed this last time.

3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. That's a

4 problematic issue because the test procedure itself

5 specifies a voltage, so you can't vary the voltage.

6 It's simulating, I mean, near what the objective of

7 the product is, is to deal with the low voltages.

8 MS. BARHYDT: How does this come up under

9 the test conditions, or what is

10 MR. NESHAN: As I said, so mechanically11 wise, installed as part of the condensing unit. So

12 artificially, we add pressure, and the compressor has

13 to work at a higher pressure, which means it has to

14 work harder so that if there's a low voltage

15 condition, when the compressor wants to come on,

16 conditions are correct for that compressor to come on.

17 Otherwise, the compressor would burn out.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see why it's an

19 issue.

20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

21 National. We would test with the CPR in the system.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: And under the test conditions,

2 if it was building a pressure, we'd amend that we

3 would just test with that as part of the normal unit.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I don't see why it

5 would be an issue.

6 MR. EISNER: Any other comment on this

7 issue?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Do we need to add it --

9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

10 MS. BARHYDT: -- and explicitly state that

11 we don't believe that there's any change needed? Go

12 ahead, Charlie.

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I -- these

14 things are very, very unusual, and they're only used

15 in conditions where the unit specification cannot be

16 met, usually at -- quite often at export units, but

17 sometimes in rural areas, where the voltage varies a

18 great deal. This is not anything that's trying to do

19 anything other than compensate for the fact that the

20 electrical utility's not meeting their requirements --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

22 MR. HON: -- and really should not be
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1 affecting energy efficiency because under proper

2 conditions during the test procedure, we would never

3 see this necessary. In reality, it would obscure your

4 test because it would run your pressures much higher

5 than it needed to be and falsely just -- and really

6 actually damage -- I don't believe we should be

7 testing these things as part of the unit at all.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Can it be removed by the test

9 lab?

10 MR. NESHAN: I assume mechanically-wise, it

11 could be removed, but they have to go do some piping.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

13 MR. BAUMAN: I think -- this is Jeff Bauman

14 from National again -- but I think the question would

15 be, again, you know, we don't have a problem with this

16 one with the other, but that I think the people asking

17 for an exclusion on it would be if you have a similar

18 unit that does not have this feature, then you would

19 test that, not let the lab remove it, I think.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess just for my lack

21 of understanding, if a unit includes this device, it

22 automatically is on, regardless of the voltage it's
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1 receiving?

2 MR. NESHAN: Yes, mechanically-wise. Again,

3 it's --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's on or off? It's not

5 a -- if it receives a bad voltage, it comes on,

6 period?

7 MR. NESHAN: No, no, it's always on. It

8 would be always on.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so

10 MR. NESHAN: It's a restriction in the

11 piping.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So just test one

13 without it, then. So and you offer the exact same

14 unit without it?

15 MR. NESHAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So add it.

17 MS. BARHYDT: What's it called?

18 MALE SPEAKER: A regulator.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Voltage regulator?

20 MALE SPEAKER: Crankcase pressure regulator.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Crankcase pressure

22 regulator.
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1

2

3 MS. BARHYDT: Can you give us the

4 description?

5 MALE SPEAKER: Neshan, you want to just give

6 a description of what its function is?

7 MR. NESHAN: It's a mechanical pressure

8 regulator designed or used for low-voltage conditions.

9 I mean, that's -- if you want, I can write up

10 something and send it over.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Under-voltage?

12 MR. NESHAN: It's under-voltage, yes.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Under-voltage?

14 MR. NESHAN: Under-voltage, yeah.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Just put "have

16 identical model available without feature for

17 testing."

18 MR. NESHAN: Yeah.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's good.

20 MR. EISNER: Okay. Joe Sanders online, you

21 have a comment?

22 MR. SANDERS: I was -- yes, this is Joe --
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1 can you hear me -- from Traulsen?

2 MR. EISNER: Yes. Yes.

3 MR. SANDERS: I was going to give you a

4 better explanation of that a CPR valve is. It goes in

5 the suction between the evaporator coil and the

6 compressor, and it is designed to lower the suction

7 pressure that the compressor sees so that the

8 compressor is able to start and run, and it can be

9 used under low-voltage situations, which is true.

10 It's always present in the system. It does

11 have a pressure drop across it, and it does cause the

12 compressor or the refrigeration system to operate at a

13 lower efficiency level. If you look at the compressor

14 curves, whenever the suction pressure is lower, they

15 use more energy to attain the same BTU rating.

16 I'm lost here. So anyway, it's always in

17 the system. It's for low-voltage or hard-to-start

18 applications. It does cause lower efficiency levels.

19 And it's something that needs to be accounted for.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So DOE is suggesting

21 that if you have an identical model without this

22 feature, that is the version of the product that would
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1 be tested, and we have all of that information you

2 just provided in the record, so we'll use that to fill

3 in the description rather than having Jeremy try and

4 type it all in right now.

5 MR. SANDERS: I understand. Just before I

6 hang up, is everything -- are there any questions on

7 this valve or feature?

8 MR. EISNER: Nobody has any questions.

9 MR. SANDERS: Okay. Thanks for letting me

10 talk.

11 MR. EISNER: You're welcome. Okay. We'll

12 be adding a definition with that. Is everybody okay

13 with this? Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. PTACs. A basic model

15 means all systems of a given type of covered product

16 or class thereof manufactured by one manufacturer,

17 having the same primary energy source, electric or

18 gas, and which have the same or comparable

19 compressors, same or comparable condensing coils, same

20 or comparable evaporator coils, and same or comparable

21 air-moving systems that have a cooling capacity within

22 300 BTU per hour of one another.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Any questions?

2 Any objections to this? Harvey?

3 MR. SACHS: Do we need the term "or gas" in

4 there?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Are there no gas?

6 MALE SPEAKER: You don't have a gas-fired --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no gas.

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, there are gas-fired

9 PTACs.

10 MR. EISNER: Pardon me? I'm all in favor of

11 innovation.

12 MR. JOHNSON: There used to be gas-fired

13 PTACs, and I think there still are and may be again.

14 I think Kozi (ph) makes a gas-fired heating section.

15 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

16 MR. EISNER: Okay.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. Just

18 to clean it up a bit, do we need to have the phrase

19 "all systems of a given type of covered product or

20 class thereof," can we just replace that with PTAC or

21 packaged terminal heat pumps because that's what we're

22 talking about?
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1 MR. EISNER: I would point out that lawyers

2 don't like the word "thereof."

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Our lawyers don't.

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: Being a lawyer --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: DOE lawyers don't.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let me have their names.

7 I'll talk to them.

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Did you point at me?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-uh.

10 MALE SPEAKER: You're on vacation right now.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Are we making a change?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So in the existing

13 regulations, that's meant to be they have to belong to

14 the same product class.

15 MR. WHITWELL: But I think --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what -- that's --

17 MR. WHITWELL: This is a definition --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Translation from our

19 lawyerly language, or that's what that means.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But by definition,

21 wouldn't PTAC and packaged terminal heat pumps be part

22 of the same product class?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the PTAC product classes

2 are distinguished more, in some cases, by cooling

3 capacity, by their rated cooling capacity.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the issue.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I'm fine with it.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But we can say it in a much

8 more direct way.

9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. For

10 consistency, if you're going to include the

11 possibility of gas, we've got to add some other

12 language about components, because there's a furnace

13 section that would be involved, unless it was a gas

14 heat pump.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, this is Jill. Why

16 would we add it to a cooling test in a cooling

17 description?

18 MR. SACHS: Again, if it were a gas heat

19 pump, it would be doing gas heat pump PTAC, you would

20 need to include it.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't -- I was thinking that

22 the ones -- that gas furnaces were heating.
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1 MR. THARP: Yeah. Rusty with Goodman.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Gas furnaces for heating.

3 MR. THARP: The gas portion is actually the

4 gas heating. I don't think there's any kind of gas --

5 MR. SACHS: So it would be relevant for the

6 PTHP, but in that case --

7 MR. STEM: This is Mike with Intertek.

8 There are some technologies, primarily in Asia, but

9 it's gas- powered compressors that are still doing

10 cooling, so I wouldn't exclude those.

11 MR. SACHS: I'm only saying if we're

12 including gas, there's downstream language which I

13 think needs to be modulated, and I'm not sure what the

14 words are.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Admittedly not exhaustive, but

16 right now on a Google search, all I'm finding is gas

17 furnace sections, no gas engines or compressors. But,

18 admittedly, it's just a short search.

19 MR. SACHS: That's just what I want at my

20 Motel 6.

21 MR. EISNER: All right. Moving right along

22 -- so are we comfortable with this language as-is?
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1 Any objections to this? Any abstentions?

2 MS. BARHYDT: PTAC features. Copper

3 evaporator condenser coils. It's an indoor or outdoor

4 coil used in an air conditioner and fabricated

5 entirely of copper. DOE believes that all types of

6 coils should be eligible for testing.

7 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Anybody object?

8 Anybody abstain? The next issue?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Coated coils. An indoor coil

10 or outdoor coil whose entire surface, including the

11 entire surface of both fins and tubes, is covered with

12 a thin continuous nonporous coating to reduce

13 corrosion. DOE believes that all types of coils are

14 eligible for testing.

15 MR. EISNER: Any comments?

16 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. You guys, we're

17 going to have the same discussion later on for the

18 other product, so if you're going to make a different

19 determination for the other project, then I think we

20 should discuss this all together, because we're not

21 going to agree to something here and then do something

22 differently.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Why?

2 MR. AMRANE: Well, because -- for the same

3 reasons. I mean, we are talking about the same kind

4 of issues. The coated coal is needed because of

5 corrosion issues, and if you're making different

6 determination later on for the other products, then I

7 don't see why it won't apply for this type of product,

8 too.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so far we've done CRE,

10 and we've voted on CRE to not -- that all types of

11 coils will be eligible for testing. So for PTACs, our

12 position is that all types of coils should also be

13 available for testing.

14 One of the reasons is I think there is a

15 difference between the PTAC market and all the

16 different designs and features and the one-offs and

17 the two-offs. You don't see that as much in the

18 commercial HVAC -- as in the commercial HVAC industry.

19 So I would encourage you to be open to the idea of

20 treating them differently.

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Karim, I've had

22 the impression that a much higher fraction of PTACs
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1 are installed in environments near salt air -- that

2 would be the case, for example, for RTUs, and it's

3 just such a pervasive aspect of the hospitality

4 industry. So that in itself, there's a higher

5 fraction of PTACs that are shipped with coated coils

6 for that reason. That would seem to be a reason why

7 this class might be treated differently.

8 MR. AMRANE: Let the manufacturers speak,

9 but at the same time, maybe the solution is to do what

10 we - - in that case we left it last time, is maybe

11 look at establishing a different product class or

12 whatever. I don't know.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be a long-term

14 solution for the next rulemaking, but for now, the

15 short-term solution would -- the position up for

16 voting is that all types of coils would be eligible

17 for testing.

18 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. As

19 far as the market share issue, I don't have an exact

20 figure, but it's probably somewhere between 10 and 20

21 percent of our PTACs are shipped with a coating on the

22 condenser coal. And I guess our position is that we
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1 would prefer for it not to be tested because it's a

2 fairly minimal degradation in performance based on our

3 testing. It's 1 or 2 percent, somewhere in that

4 range. But the long-term effect is, after a year --

5 being in the field for a year or so, the performance

6 of that product is much better, then, without the

7 coating on the coil.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and I think, from the

9 Department's perspective, there's no -- I mean, we see

10 benefit of these, period. And, Karim, your answer to

11 -- you know, product class, long-term, maybe that's

12 the way they need to be evaluated. For short-term,

13 you know, for coated coils, for a 1 to 2 percent

14 difference, if you guys decide to group them as the

15 same base model, the key here would be any type of

16 coil could be selected for testing.

17 MR. EISNER: Further comment? Any

18 objections to this? Any abstentions? Okay. Is that

19 an abstention? Okay. No abstentions.

20 Okay. Next issue?

21 MS. BARHYDT: High-efficiency air

22 filtration. An assembly of air filters and filter
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1 brackets or racks that provides greater air filtration

2 than the air filtration assembly available for sale

3 with the equipment that provides the lowest air

4 filtration.

5 Short-term solution is to issue test

6 procedure guidance specifying standard air filter for

7 tests; long-term will be to actually address this in

8 the DOE test procedure.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And, Rusty, can -- or

10 can one of you remind me what was the standard filter

11 rating for this one, for PTACs? I --

12 MR. JOHNSON: It was like -- this is Tom

13 Johnson. It was like a MERV 3.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, yeah. Can you put in

15 MERV 3 under short-term in parentheses?

16 MR. JOHNSON: But -- yeah, but we were

17 talking about -- Ashley, we were talking about

18 pressure drop instead of MERV 3, because it's not

19 consistently a MERV

20 3.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And a MERV is not a pressure
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1 drop value.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I got that part. But

3 what do you want?

4 MR. WHITWELL: The point of discussion was a

5 pressure drop.

6 MR. THARP: For most PTAC product, it's a

7 custom filter that, you know, it's a plastic, mesh

8 filter that goes -- slides in and slides out, so it's

9 typically not --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. It can be cleaned.

11 MR. THARP: That can be cleaned, right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

13 MR. THARP: Cleanable. So a MERV rating is

14 not appropriate. Our suggestion is to test with

15 whatever is shipped with the product, and -- because

16 100 percent of our product is shipped with a filter --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can --

18 MR. THARP: -- for both our vision and --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you just change it to

20 "test as shipped"?

21 MR. THARP: I would say "test whatever is" -

22 -
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Standard air filter.

2 MR. THARP: Standard -- standard --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or specifying test as

4 shipped with air filter as --

5 MR. THARP: And if it's not shipped, we're

6 going past not shipped.

7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. May be the

8 question for Rusty -- I mean, do we have any pressure

9 drop in test procedures and stuff?

10 MR. THARP: Not for this one.

11 MR. AMRANE: Not for this one?

12 MR. THARP: And the air-moving systems on

13 PTACs are fairly sensitive to pressure drop.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

15 MR. THARP: So it's -- if you put a -- even

16 a small pressure delta, it's going to have a pretty

17 significant difference on the air-movement system, so

18 the products are designed to typically remain with the

19 low pressure drop, plastic mesh filter, and that's the

20 way we test them in our labs. And in a trial, the

21 labs receive the standard plastic mesh filters.

22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. What I'm
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1 hearing is that you're shipping with (inaudible)

2 obstacles, which we call filters. I can appreciate

3 that as being a customer-driven and I can appreciate

4 pressure drop sensitivity. But I think, as protection

5 for the industry, it still would be worthwhile to

6 define a pressure drop, whether that's .1 inches or

7 some other number, or whether it's capacity dependent.

8 It still would seem to protect you all against those -

9 - some arbitrary decision that the test procedure

10 ought to require a MERV 11 filter, and nobody makes a

11 MERV 11 filter with a .1 pressure drop. I think it

12 might be useful to get that performance spec in there.

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. I think

14 in our -- because of the space constraints, you could

15 not even get a one-inch filter on our product.

16 MALE SPEAKER: I understand that.

17 MR. THARP: So it has -- it's basically --

18 it's only the customer filter that's designed with the

19 product, at least today's production. I can only

20 speak for my company --

21 MR. SACHS: So, Rusty, what you're telling

22 me is you've accomplished two objectives. You've got
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1 a filter in there that's coarse enough that it never

2 gets dirty enough to be cleaned. Now all the dirt --

3 MR. WHITWELL: And that --

4 MR. SACHS: -- can go directly to the

5 evaporator.

6 MR. WHITWELL: No, actually -- we're not in

7 the PTAC business anymore, but the filters in there do

8 a fairly decent job of catching dust; right? It

9 catches dust that is typically in a hotel or motel,

10 and they do need to be cleaned, or else the unit's not

11 going to perform. So they do catch a lot of dust.

12 MR. THARP: We do have great filters.

13 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. I missed that.

14 MR. THARP: Rusty with Goodman. We do have

15 great filters.

16 MR. SACHS: Great?

17 MR. THARP: Great.

18 MR. SACHS: Great or gray?

19 MALE SPEAKER: Gray. I think he said gray.

20 Gray filters.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on this?

22 Any objections to the language? Any abstentions?
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1 Okay.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Normal wall sleeve depth is 14

3 inches. Extended wall sleeves can range from 16 to 31

4 inches. DOE would issue test procedure guidance

5 indicating that units will be tested with standardized

6 14-inch sleeves.

7 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Any objections

8 to the language? Any abstentions?

9 Decorative grilles.

10 MS. BARHYDT: A decorative grille is a

11 nonstandard grille used primarily for aesthetic

12 purposes. Issue test procedure guidance indicating

13 that units will be tested without decorative grilles.

14 MR. EISNER: Any comments?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. This is Bob Whitwell

16 from Carrier. Rusty, I would be concerned about this,

17 because I think you need to have at least your

18 standard grille there. If you have -- this implies

19 that you would remove the grille altogether.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Right. Tom Johnson.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And --

22 MR. JOHNSON: I agree with that.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: -- then you have the air

2 coming in and out of the same side, so you need the

3 grille to do the deflection of the air to reduce the -

4 -

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Bypass.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Bypass -- recirculate --

7 MR. THARP: Maybe we ought to say

8 architectural decorative grilles. That terminology is

9 used, I think, quite a bit in sales literature.

10 MR. EISNER: What?

11 MR. THARP: So architectural decorative

12 grilles.

13 MR. EISNER: Yeah.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Well, but for the most part,

15 they all come with grilles, just like the filters.

16 MR. THARP: But it's not in the

17 architectural --

18 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, it's --

19 MR. THARP: -- or decorative.

20 MR. JOHNSON: I mean, whatever your standard

21 grille is, that's what you want to test around.

22 MR. EISNER: So they will be tested.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So our position should be

2 that we will test with standard grilles, period.

3 Okay.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think that makes

5 sense.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll just say "with

7 standard grilles" --

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- instead of "without

10 decorative." Yep.

11 MR. EISNER: Any objections to this

12 language? Any abstentions? Okay. Next issue. Should

13 we --

14 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

15 MR. EISNER: -- take a lunch --

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The grill sounds good to me,

17 so I think we're going to

18 MALE SPEAKER: Trigger word, huh?

19 MR. EISNER: Take an hour for lunch?

20 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. And away we go.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Basic model definition.
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1 Air-cooled, small, large, very large commercial

2 packaged air conditioning. Basic model means all

3 systems of a given type of covered product or class

4 thereof having the same primary energy source,

5 electric or gas, and which have the same or comparably

6 performing compressors, condensing coils -- there's

7 too many s's there -- evaporator coils, and air-moving

8 systems that have a common nominal cooling capacity.

9 MR. EISNER: Any comments, questions? No

10 objections? Harvey?

11 MR. SACHS: I guess I'm just a little --

12 Harvey Sachs -- a little confused about the heating

13 side of this since so much of this market is served

14 with what we have called a commercial warm-air furnace

15 as a section of the air conditioner.

16 And so we're, again, in the situation of

17 electricity or gas, but not explicitly addressing the

18 components that would be involved and functionality

19 that's delivered by gas. I don't know if that's a

20 problem, but it's sort of strikingly consistent with

21 the discussion earlier this morning.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Everyone's looking at me.
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1 I'm -- this is Ashley. I'm of the opinion there's no

2 issue. You can strike it, but

3 MR. AMRANE: I mean -- Karim with AHRI. I

4 mean, today we have product classes that distinguish

5 between gas and electric.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have different

7 standards.

8 MR. WHITWELL: But my understanding here is

9 that this wouldn't be the gas heating section. This

10 would be -- the context here is on the cooling side,

11 cooling or heating through the refrigeration system.

12 MS. MEYERS: How did you understand that?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Because that's what -- I

14 mean, that's DOE's -- DOE is only -- is covering here

15 the cooling -- the refrigeration system efficiency.

16 It's not necessarily clear, but I think that's the

17 intent, right? I mean, that's what our discussion's

18 all been around. Maybe the language needs to be

19 changed. That was my comment earlier, that I'm a

20 little confused about the language "all systems of a

21 given type of covered product" because we were talking

22 about a specific covered product here anyway, I think.
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1 But, you know, I'll defer to DOE on that.

2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Does

3 this cover heat pumps also?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. FLY: Does it say that?

6 MS. BARHYDT: It doesn't say it.

7 MR. FLY: But there is -- there are two -- I

8 mean, there's different energy efficiency standards

9 for gas heat from electric or no heat.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

11 MR. FLY: So that's where I think the gas

12 would come in. We state that it's gas because here's

13 some accommodation for the pressure drop with a gas

14 furnace, but it's really just a statement that it's

15 gas, not a measurement of the gas furnace in this part

16 of the standard. So a lot of these products are kind

17 of double-regulated in two different areas.

18 MR. THARP: Actually, if you look at the

19 test procedure in the AHRI rating standard, it

20 specifically states electrically driven only. Rusty

21 Tharp with Goodman. I guess I would suggest maybe

22 removing the word "or gas." It's all specifically
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1 electrically driven; at least for this product.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not in our definition.

3 What about electrically operated? So just to go back,

4 I mean, I think Mark's point is a fairly good one. I

5 don't care how we end up writing the words. I think

6 the key here is that if you take the first section of

7 it that says "or class thereof," the section that

8 you're not too fond of, the key is --

9 MALE SPEAKER: It's just confusing to me.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, not to -- yeah. The

11 key here is that different equipment classes which

12 have different standards cannot be combined in the

13 same basic model. Those are the two concepts of

14 having the same primary energy source and -- or class

15 thereof statement. So to the extent we want to say it

16 a different way, that's what it's trying to convey.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So it's the -- like

18 the 3 -- or less than 65,000 BTU per hour, 3-phase,

19 and a 10-ton cannot be in the same basic model --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

21 MR. WHITWELL: -- is what you're saying?

22 Yeah, okay.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any other thoughts on this?

2 MS. MEYERS: Well, I do think it needs to be

3 rewritten to be a little bit clearer. I'm not sure I

4 have a suggestion yet on how to reword that, but if

5 most of the OEMs in this room are confused, then we

6 just need some clarifying words in there. I don't

7 think I object to the intent, but I object to the way

8 it's worded.

9 MR. EISNER: People okay with this?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This does bring into the

11 issue -- so I will bring this up, not because I don't

12 like my own wording, but this does bring rise the

13 issue where we got a lot of comments on the AEDM rule

14 about what is an equipment class. As long as that's

15 fairly well- understood, then we're okay here.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I just -- I can't

17 remember. And so I don't know if you're going to have

18 a reference to where -- I understand, but I don't

19 know, when you write that out, if you have a reference

20 to where --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the definitions are.
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1 That's all.

2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

3 assume you're going to take note and define equipment

4 class in part of this rulemaking?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It's already defined.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're already defined by

7 the --

8 MR. FLY: Is it?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the standards tables in

10 the

11 CFR.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. FLY: Okay.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it called an equipment

15 class or product class?

16 MALE SPEAKER: Product class.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: I think it's called product

18 class, and I think it might help clarify it if we

19 matched it.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We use product class or

21 residential equipment class for commercial, but

22 they're the same ideas. So whether or not you use
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1 product class or equipment class, to DOE, it doesn't

2 make any difference, but you will see our nomenclature

3 is equipment class for commercial and industrial

4 equipment and product class for consumer products.

5 That's one of those changes that the lawyers will make

6 during review.

7 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Is

8 everybody -- anybody have any problems with this?

9 Anybody object? Harvey?

10 MR. SACHS: No.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's great.

12 MR. EISNER: Anybody abstain?

13 MR. AMRANE: I guess just a clarification I

14 maybe forgot about. For the AEDM requirement, do you

15 need to have AEDM equipment class?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

17 MR. AMRANE: No? It can go across equipment

18 classes?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We define it

20 completely separately.

21 MR. EISNER: No objections, no abstentions?

22 MS. MEYERS: Just one more clarifying
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1 question. So you can have an AEDM across equipment

2 classes, but a basic model cannot be --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

4 MS. MEYERS: -- is what you're saying here?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, because you're

6 coming up with a single rating for a basic model,

7 whereas the AEDM is a tool to come up with a lot of

8 different ratings.

9 MR. EISNER: So we're agreed? No

10 objections? No abstentions? Next issue.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell. So

12 I don't have an issue with this. I just want to bring

13 up that in the notes from the last meeting, we lost

14 somehow the water-cooled small, large, and very large

15 commercial package, so we just -- I just mention that

16 so that we don't forget that we need to have that

17 basic model. There was a separate page. Previously

18 there was a separate page from the water-cooled. It

19 was missing from the last document.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's missing from here, too.

21 MR. WHITWELL: I thought it might be, but --

22 and that's why I brought it up. We need --
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1 MR. AMRANE: Is that water source?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Water-cooled. Water-cooled

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say let's go

4 through these. There was a couple that were added,

5 and water-cooled or evaporatively cooled, I don't know

6 that we ever actually discussed them.

7 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think we did.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It might have been a day

9 that I hadn't been here. But let's get through the

10 ones that we have discussed, and to the extent there's

11 additional time at the end of the day, I'll throw some

12 slides up, and we can start those discussions, or it

13 might be a first thing for tomorrow morning if we

14 don't make headway.

15 MR. WHITWELL: That's fine. I just wanted

16 to bring it up --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah.

18 MR. WHITWELL: -- so we didn't forget about

19 it.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Did we skip SPVUs, or are we

21 going to go back?

22 MALE SPEAKER: They're later.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I thought that would be more

2 difficult, so I put these first.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. That's fine.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was a lunchtime --

5 MR. BAUMAN: I just want to make sure we

6 didn't forget them.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Okay. So the next

8 one is the copper evaporator coil, condenser coil.

9 Position for vote is that copper coils would be

10 tested.

11 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Any objections?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Trane objects. Yes.

13 Jill Hootman from Trane objects.

14 MR. EISNER: What's your problem, Jill?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think they should be

16 included for testing. They're very much one-off.

17 We've said that they're less than 1 percent. They're

18 very rarely built. I think they're in the 1 to 2

19 percent capacity loss.

20 MR. SACHS: Jill, this is Harvey Sachs. I

21 believe you also said that the heat transfer

22 efficiency is very close to that of --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. It's in a 1 to 2

2 percent.

3 MR. SACHS: So it's --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: We haven't tested every single

5 combination, but the ones that we have tested, it's

6 within 1 to 2 percent.

7 MR. SACHS: So it's a small fraction of the

8 market, and it's very similar, so the question is just

9 whether DOE should exclude these when it's picking

10 chunks of equipment to

11 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest. This is a little

12 different, when we've been talking about for all

13 exclusions having a comparable model that doesn't

14 contain any solution. So if the copper heat exchanger

15 were identical construction to aluminum, then I

16 understand that it would be as efficient, if not more.

17 But you want the flexibility to change a material and

18 change a design.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Our design is the exact same,

20 so I can speak from --

21 MR. RIVEST: So that's a difference here.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you would be fine. I
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1 mean, you would -- they would always be better.

2 MR. RIVEST: Right. So maybe that's --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Never have to report it.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: They're actually a little

5 less, because there's a -- it's a little bit thicker,

6 so there's a fan pressure drop across it, so it's a

7 thicker fin material, so there's more fan pressure

8 drop across, so there's actually a little less.

9 MR. HUNT: I object.

10 MR. EISNER: Other objections, other

11 comments?

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and the

13 Department has stated that it should be included, but

14 I didn't hear much in the basis for that. In

15 argument, Jill stated that she didn't think it should

16 be included. Try to help me understand why it's not

17 really asking why the Department would want to

18 preserve -- what the arguments are for preserving the

19 freedom to test the all-copper heat exchanger option?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, Harvey, I think Mike

21 just explained it. It gets to the point of having an

22 identical model, and to date, what our discussions
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1 have been around is whether or not, when you change to

2 copper, the heat exchanger design is also optimized to

3 get the same -- to get a comparable level of

4 performance, but it's not identical. It's -- so I

5 think that's -- Jill's stating that hers is. There

6 are other people that have stated on the record at

7 previous meetings that theirs is not.

8 From our perspective, we believe that, of an

9 identical design, at least from the discussions to

10 date, although Jill just said this wasn't true for

11 hers, that copper has better heat transfer properties,

12 so in theory, an identical design should give you

13 better performance.

14 However, if you have optimized that design,

15 meaning changing the fins per inch or changing the

16 rows or whatever, to reduce the amount of copper you

17 may have to use, but maintain a comparable level of

18 performance, it's a different unit, and that's where

19 it comes in.

20 Now, is the reality -- if this is just 1

21 percent of the market, is the reality the Department's

22 going to pick those? No, but should we be able to if
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1 the designs are different? Yes. It's not functional.

2 It's not identical, and that's the premise behind a

3 lot of these exclusions, that an identical unit will

4 be available for testing, and it has to be the same

5 across all manufacturers, and this is something that's

6 not treated the same.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. Thank

8 you. I guess I'd like to hear what the other

9 manufacturers have to say.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. When

12 we say an identical unit, it's going to be the same

13 unit, with a maybe heat exchanger, of course, but it's

14 going to be the same -- going to have the same

15 components, so

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the heat exchanger

17 design is different, Karim.

18 MR. AMRANE: It's going to be different heat

19 exchanger, yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, that's the

21 fundamental thing we're talking about; right?

22 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from
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1 Carrier. In our case, sometimes it's exactly the same

2 as far as tube circuiting, fin count. Other times

3 it's not exactly the same. For example, in some

4 cases, we have a louvered fin with aluminum, and with

5 the copper, because of the properties of the material

6 and its impact on the fin die, we do not have louvered

7 fin with copper, so we have to change the fin count,

8 which does -- can have some impact on the air side

9 resistance.

10 The -- in many cases, these products, the

11 heat transfer, total heat transfer is more severely

12 impacted by changes on their side than the refrigerant

13 side. So the additional heat transfer capability of

14 the copper does not necessarily help us in this case

15 because it's air side that -- the residential is

16 thermal -- or the heat transfer is -- residential is

17 higher on the air side.

18 So we will have a performance difference.

19 We will have to change our design in some cases from

20 where we have today. It's going to add more cost to

21 the product.

22 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. Jill, I
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1 think what you're asking is basically that air

2 conditioners with copper heat exchangers not be

3 regulated. That's effectively what -- how I'm reading

4 it. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that would

5 be the outcome; right? So someone could sell a --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, isn't that the outcome

7 of all of that?

8 MR. RIVEST: No, because -- see, compare

9 with a coated coal. Here, we would have, as a

10 control, the non-coated coil. We can test it.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the difference.

12 MR. RIVEST: Copper, there's nothing to

13 compare it to. It's just we're not allowed to touch

14 it, right?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, but if it's -- I mean, I

16 understand what Bob is saying. That doesn't happen

17 for ours, but I understand what he's getting at with

18 the louvered design, but if it is the exact same

19 construction, same fin surface, same fins per inch,

20 same square footage, it is essentially the same coil.

21 MR. RIVEST: I think, then, it's closer to

22 what we're doing with coated coils, but that's not
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1 reflected in the language. It would have to be

2 refined.

3 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

4 just have a question for Ashley. If we had -- let's

5 say that we had a coated -- a copper coil and the

6 performance was the same. Could we make that part of

7 the same basic model? Could I have a copper coil

8 basic model and an aluminum coil basic model? You

9 could pick either one to test, and as long as the

10 ratings were the same, would they be the same basic

11 model?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. Yes.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's what I want to do

14 is

15 --

16 MR. FLY: Because it's not the --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can absolutely do that

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't want to distinguish

19 it.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the only thing this

21 allows us to do is I can pick the copper one or the

22 aluminum one. It doesn't require you to do separate
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1 basic models. But what Mike said is true.

2 Essentially, what you're setting up by asking for an

3 exclusion here and not having a control or an

4 identical model is saying copper coil units are not

5 regulated, and that's something we can't agree to.

6 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank with AHRI.

7 This discussion seems like -- well, it seems like

8 we've lost our track here. Okay? This -- the basic

9 premise here is we are talking about a basic model

10 definition and options that are available off of a

11 basic model. That's a critical initial condition.

12 And Mike's comments were suggesting, "Well,

13 but if you only offer the copper coil, then we

14 wouldn't be regulating it." I would say that's

15 absolutely incorrect, because, again, this whole

16 discussion's about things that the manufacturer offers

17 as options off a model. So if the model only comes

18 with copper coils, there's no longer an option.

19 FEMALE SPEAKER: Right. It is the model.

20 MR. STANONIK: It is the model. It would

21 get tested. It would be regulated. But if -- using

22 Robert's situation or example, where they have some
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1 models where they give you the exact same coil, but

2 it's copper, that's an option, and in that case, why

3 would you need to test it?

4 But I think Mike -- I think your point is

5 you can't lose sight of this. These are -- everything

6 here is preceded by the statement that this is an

7 option that can be ordered off a basic model. That's

8 the only thing we're talking about. As soon as it's

9 no longer an option -- that's the only way any

10 manufacturer -- if that's the only way they provide

11 that model, that's the model. And we can't say, "Oh,

12 we didn't really mean that." That's where we started

13 from.

14 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E,

15 and I was objecting to it for several reasons. I

16 always look at things from the customer point of view,

17 and these coils are going to be better for the

18 customer.

19 If they don't want to spend the money, and

20 it's always going to be more expensive, which means

21 the percentage of the market will be held down

22 naturally, if they want to spend the extra money to
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1 get a longer- term energy efficiency, which I care

2 about, then I don't want to create a special class,

3 and I do believe, as Frank said, that we aren't just

4 deregulating.

5 It's part of an option, and as a mechanical

6 engineer, design engineer, in the past, whenever I

7 pull up a model, and I have all these options, still

8 the basic engineering data stays very, very similar.

9 Maybe you have a footnote or something, but -- check

10 with the manufacturers -- but you probably don't have

11 a whole new engineering data tape of details. You're

12 using the same details. So for me as the design

13 engineer, it is working the same in terms of the

14 actual performance capacity and whatnot, airflow.

15 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. So I'm

16 trying to understand what Frank said. Frank, are you

17 saying that if the copper foil was being manufactured

18 as a different design from the aluminum foil, it would

19 simply be a different basic model, and it would be

20 certified that way, and could we test it out?

21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I

22 would guess I'm trying to make sure we're talking at
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1 the same thing, not talking above each other or over

2 each other. I'm looking at that -- looking at this

3 maybe a little more like the way Marshall was

4 describing it. Okay?

5 There's this basic model that I have

6 designed. I have essential engineering parameters or

7 information about it, design information about it.

8 And you're my customer, and you say, "Okay, I want

9 that model, but I don't want the standard coils. I

10 want my coils to be copper."

11 I'm -- and Mike -- and I'll certainly get

12 corrected, but I'm assuming that those copper coils

13 would be basically the same design as the standard

14 coils. In that case, to me, you just -- you picked,

15 let's say, a deluxe option. You -- you know, you

16 said, "I wanted a" --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you just hit the

18 keyword, "basically the same." What does that mean?

19 Because what if somebody comes in, and they're arguing

20 theirs are basically the same, but it's really not

21 basically the same? We've effectively said, "We can't

22 test your copper coil unit.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Well, I --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And what if it -- yes, the

3 consumer may pay more money, but they're not going to

4 pay more money if somebody -- maybe not anyone in this

5 room, but if somebody decides to sell one that's 20

6 percent below the standard? Because they know DOE

7 can't test it, but they're calling it "basically the

8 same."

9 MR. STANONIK: Well, okay. All right. So a

10 coil had --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's the problem.

12 In the rest of these options, we say "A unit must be -

13 - that's otherwise identical." So Jill's unit, for

14 example, that she says, "Mine is identical, except for

15 one's copper, one's aluminum." That's okay. Bob's

16 unit, who he says, "Well, I made modifications. At

17 the end of the day, it comes out comparable, but I

18 made modifications," it's not identical. That's not

19 okay.

20 The question is we have this difference here

21 in the industry that -- how do we reconcile that? And

22 our going-in position is we can test them. You can
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1 group them as the same basic model. You don't need to

2 rate them separately. You don't need to run your AEDM

3 separately, but DOE could pull them.

4 MR. STANONIK: All right. So this unit has

5 the same cooling capacity. Let's start with that;

6 right? I mean, it would have the same cooling

7 capacity, or within BTUs, whatever. Okay? It would

8 have the same cooling capacity. The coil would -- how

9 can I explain this? To my thinking --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I get it.

11 MR. STANONIK: The coil would --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not that I don't get

13 it.

14 MR. STANONIK: The coil would have

15 essentially the same performance, although it may not

16 be exactly the same efficiency. It's going to have

17 the same heat transfer performance.

18 MR. CLEMENTS: If it has the same number of

19 rows, fins per inch.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but it doesn't.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it doesn't. He just

22 said they changed all the other there, too. How is
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1 that the same?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the key.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Look, I mean, I'm okay with

4 the DOE position. I think there are other things that

5 are more of an impact here that we need to discuss.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. That was kind of

7 DOE's position as well.

8 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest. Jill, were you

9 objecting to having the burden of certification?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

11 MR. RIVEST: But --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't have to do that.

13 MR. RIVEST: -- if you don't have to certify

14 separately -- simply, all this allows DOE to test --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's make that another basic

16 model.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You do not.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: And show you the performance.

19 MR. WHITWELL: This -- that's where the part

20 of the asterisk that we can include --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- in our basic model
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1 definition; right?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Would this include coated

4 copper coils?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten to coated

6 copper coils.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, my God, if somebody

8 (inaudible).

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I thought this one was

10 going to be the easier one.

11 MR. EISNER: So, Jill, you would have -- I

12 have an objection. If there was an asterisk here

13 saying if all else is the same, the copper model

14 doesn't have to be tested

15 MS. HOOTMAN: We would have an objection

16 then.

17 MR. EISNER: Well, you're saying if it's the

18 same except for the copper.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: They can group it as the

20 same basic model. The Department wants to retain the

21 ability to test it.

22 MR. EISNER: To test it, that's all?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we had a need to.

2 MS. BARHYDT: If they're really the same,

3 and we're willing to pay the money to buy one with the

4 copper, we want to be able to test it.

5 MR. EISNER: But you're willing to accept

6 that, as long as

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I am willing to accept

8 that.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what that means.

10 MR. EISNER: So a footnote here would help

11 you. There was an objection from you.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It won't help --

13 MR. EISNER: It would help you, Marshall?

14 MR. HUNT: Yeah.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It won't help Bob, but he's

16 willing to go either way.

17 MR. EISNER: But Bob is willing to go with

18 it. So if I command --

19 MR. WHITWELL: With our AEDM, we will

20 redesign the coils so that the performance would be

21 the same, and --

22 MALE SPEAKER: Thank you.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: -- we'll toss DOE more to buy

2 -

3 -

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And he's happy to sell it to

5 us.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So we will have more margin

7 on it, so

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, where's all the

9 taxpayers?

10 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

11 MALE SPEAKER: And the customers will be

12 well- served, so

13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So

14 the -- I mean, by saying that we can put them in the

15 same model group, it says that when we say the same

16 evaporator coil, these are seen by DOE as the same

17 evaporator coil, going back to the master definition.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you go back? It says

19 comparable, I think. Same or comparably performing.

20 Yeah.

21 MALE SPEAKER: So it's comparable?

22 MR. EISNER: Are we happy, or do we have to
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1 add language? Are we happy with what's up there?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. I take mine away.

3 MR. EISNER: And you won't make one?

4 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't make one. I'm

5 holding my --

6 MR. EISNER: Somehow or other, I think

7 you're responsible for all the problems.

8 Okay. So there -- this is now unanimous.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So economizers, an

10 automatic system that enables a cooling system to

11 supply outdoor air to reduce or eliminate the need for

12 mechanical cooling during mild or cold weather. DOE

13 would issue enforcement guidance indicating that

14 testing will not be performed on units with

15 economizers; however, an otherwise identical unit must

16 be available for testing.

17 MR. EISNER: Any questions, concerns? Any

18 objections?

19 MR. SACHS: You guys move faster than I

20 think.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're economizing on time.

22 MR. SACHS: I guess what I'm thinking about
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1 is we're now starting to see regionally specific

2 models, so I might have a model which is only

3 available for western use with an integrated

4 economizer. It might even have direct-to-indirect

5 heat exchange to cool the incoming air. Oh, it's not

6 available without an economizer function. So I think

7 your response is, well, that's a different basic

8 model, then, but it -- I'm not sure what it means to

9 say that you would take that western cooling

10 hypermodel, strip off all the stuff that makes it

11 special, test it, and try to put the sheet metal back

12 together?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what we're

14 saying. If there's not an identical unit without it

15 available, we would test it as is. Yeah, there would

16 have to be testing.

17 MR. SACHS: Okay. Now, in that case, that

18 would seem like it might be a constraint on the

19 manufacturers in terms of --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It will.

21 MR. SACHS: -- things that will degrade test

22 performance while improving field performance.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I -- yeah, Harvey, this

2 is Jill from Trane. I don't know that, but what it

3 will say is if I have to set up separate models and

4 include tests for those and/or AEDMs and do all my

5 background and all that, make that separate than my

6 others, we'd really have to look at the marketability

7 of it and how much am I going to get out of that,

8 weigh that against whether I can support all the

9 engineering data that has to go beyond it? So it

10 would effectively squash it for a while. I'll tell

11 you that.

12 MR. SACHS: I'm thinking in particular, not

13 so much of the western models, but models that some

14 manufacturers are working on with enhanced (inaudible)

15 medication capabilities, which may well involve

16 increased pressure drops and more fan power.

17 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. So

18 how would a lab test a unit with integrated

19 economizers.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So how would you test it?

21 That's the first one. The first out the gate would be

22 in order to distribute it into commerce, you would
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1 have to certify it, and in order to certify it, you'd

2 have to come up with a rating. In order to come up

3 with a rating, you need a procedure. So if the

4 current test procedure doesn't accommodate it, then

5 we'll be working through the waiver process.

6 I mean, the key here, right -- the

7 fundamental premise behind all of these, and what we

8 agreed to when we started this discussion, was -- a

9 long time ago was the Department's willing to consider

10 a lot of these when there's this idea of a base model.

11 There's this idea of a control value for testing.

12 And so we're willing to exclude or

13 potentially not consider or say they're not required

14 to be tested a lot of these options if there's a base

15 model to compare it to. To Harvey's example, if

16 there's nothing else out there, I can't just say it's

17 not regulated, period.

18 MR. SACHS: No, I very much understand that,

19 but at the same time, we're trying very hard to make

20 an environment that's innovation-friendly.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MR. SACHS: And that's one of those things
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1 were trying to do with AEDM, so I'm very conscious

2 that there may be a problem, and I'm not at all sure

3 that I know what the answer is. In fact, I'm damn

4 sure I don't.

5 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. Harvey, as

6 long as we stay with a single-number metric and a

7 single test condition, then we can't -- you know, then

8 we would have to make this a different equipment class

9 with its own energy efficiency and a different test

10 condition.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

12 MR. FLY: So we're not there today. If we

13 want to promote that, that's what would have to be

14 done, I think, because it's not going to look very,

15 you know -- high heat and dehumidification unit isn't

16 going to look very interesting at 80, 60, 70 coming

17 into the coils, and neither will a Western Cooling

18 Alliance-type unit.

19 MR. SACHS: So thank you, Mark, and -- this

20 is Harvey. And what I'm inferring is that we've got a

21 stepwise procedure here and that ultimately AEDMs

22 themselves are a step toward getting multi-parameter
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1 rating methods that will be responsive to these

2 things. Well, hurry up.

3 MR. EISNER: So where are we on this?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: A vote. I think we can

5 vote.

6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object? Does

7 anybody abstain? All right. Next issue, ventilation.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Ventilation energy recovery

9 systems, an assembly that preconditions outdoor air

10 entering the equipment through direct or indirect

11 thermal and/or moisture exchange with the exhaust air,

12 which is defined as the building air being exhausted

13 to the outside from the equipment.

14 DOE would issue enforcement guidance,

15 indicating that testing will not be performed on a

16 unit with VERS; however, an otherwise identical unit

17 must be available for testing.

18 MR. EISNER: Any concerns, any questions?

19 Any objections? Any abstentions?

20 MR. HUNT: Wait, I'd like to ask a question.

21 Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Maybe, Mark Fly, you could help

22 me with this -- with this single metric -- at that
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1 single-metric test point, you could have an ERV or an

2 HRV working, correct? Because you're exhausting air,

3 and you could heat exchange with that 80-degree

4 exhaust air against the 95 coming in; correct? And I

5 think the 95 has humidity, or maybe it doesn't have

6 humidity. Is there --

7 MR. WHITWELL: Seventy-five.

8 MR. HUNT: Seventy-five? Yeah. So there is

9 a possibility with that. I mean, I'm not going to

10 object to this, but I think it's interesting that as

11 we looked forward to these newer systems, we looked at

12 this.

13 MR. FLY: It might not be enough to offset

14 the pressure drops.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, you have pressure

16 drops, and you also may have fans running as part of

17 the ERV system, which are going to add to the total

18 system power.

19 MR. HUNT: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: Any other questions? Are there

21 any objections? Any abstentions?

22 Okay. Next issue.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Copper coils, an indoor coil

2 or outdoor coil whose entire surface, including the

3 entire surface of both fins and tubes, is covered with

4 a thin continuous nonporous coating to reduce

5 corrosion. DOE would issue enforcement guidance

6 indicating the testing will not be performed on a unit

7 meeting the definition of a coated coal; however, an

8 otherwise identical unit must be available for

9 testing. Is that a different definition of a coated

10 coal?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the definition that

12 I was under the impression was --

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- presented last week.

15 MS. BARHYDT: That's right.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The dictionary.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So the definition of a coated

18 coil is an optional coil that is selected to provide

19 excellent resistance and durability to corrosive

20 effects of alkalized acids -- alcohols, petroleums,

21 sea water, salty air, and other corrosive

22 environments. Typical processes include baked phenol
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1 epoxy type, electrodisposition coating, and/or

2 thermostat final coating that is bonded after a coil

3 is assembled, covering the coil tubes, headers, and

4 fin service.

5 Coils can be assembled from fin stuff that

6 has been coated prior to the fin-stamping process.

7 Corrosion durability shall be confirmed through

8 testing per ASTM B117, salt spray test, to a minimum

9 of 500 hours.

10 MR. EISNER: Yes?

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stevens, HTP. Why

12 are we talking about corrosion resistance in an

13 efficiency test?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Mainly to define what a coated

15 coil was, how would they verify that a coated coil

16 was, in fact, coated and was not just spray-painted

17 on?

18 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. A couple

19 questions. On the test procedure STMB 117, I would

20 like to suggest that we add "for ASTM G85," because a

21 lot of products are tested to F85 also, and basically

22 say B117, G85, or equivalent in the test procedure.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And what does equivalent

2 mean? Who makes that determination?

3 MR. THARP: You can if you want.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying not to have to do

5 that.

6 MR. THARP: Or DOE-approved equivalent.

7 Also, just a question to the OEMs, I guess. The

8 (inaudible) epoxy-type electrum deposition coating, is

9 that basically the long version of Eco?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Yeah. Lupin (ph), Eco.

11 Those trade names, yeah.

12 MR. SACHS: Just for my own information,

13 it's an outer coat?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

15 MR. SACHS: It's different from outer coats.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's spray paint.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: That is --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Close enough; right?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this?

22 MS. BARHYDT: DOE's not comfortable with the
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1 "or equivalent."

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I don't blame you.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we need to add a version

4 later, just come to DOE. This is guidance, so it's

5 not a -- this is enforcement guidance, too, so it's

6 not something we issue for notice in a long comment

7 period.

8 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So as

9 long as the manufacturer has a test record on file

10 that, yes, I tested this coil to this test method or

11 equivalent, then that meets your need, or will you be

12 pulling these things and sending them out to us?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not plan -- well -- I

14 don't know. I don't know. We hope to never get in

15 this situation. I would say that the Department

16 retains the ability to ask for records or test them if

17 we needed to, if there was a question as to whether

18 something is actually a coated coil or not.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Pretty much -- this is Jill

20 from Trane. Pretty much all of us OEMs already right

21 now put in our public literature that we test to this

22 standard and how many hours. It's already stated.
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1 It's a self-certification.

2 MR. THARP: And just for clarification of

3 what's on the screen, I put the words "or ASTM"

4 between B117 and G85. Thank you.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And/or. Thank you.

6 MR. EISNER: Other comments, concerns? Any

7 objections? Any abstentions?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Process heat recovery, reclaim

9 coils, thermal storage. A heat exchanger located

10 inside the equipment that conditions the equipment's

11 supply air using energy transferred from an external

12 source using a vapor, gas, or liquid.

13 DOE would issue enforcement guidance

14 indicating that testing will not be performed on a

15 unit with these options; however, an otherwise

16 identical unit must be available for testing.

17 MR. EISNER: Comments, questions? Any

18 objections? Any abstentions?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Correction capacitors, a

20 capacitor that increases the power factor measured at

21 the line connection to the equipment. DOE would issue

22 test procedure guidance that power should be measured
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1 downstream of a capacitor or that the capacitor should

2 be disconnected when testing.

3 MR. EISNER: And any comments, any

4 questions? Any objections? Any abstentions?

5 Okay. Next issue.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Hail guards, a grille or

7 similar structure mounted to the outside of the unit,

8 covering the outdoor coil to protect the coil from

9 hail, flying debris and damage from large objects.

10 DOE will issue guidance indicating that hail guards

11 should be removed during testing if present.

12 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments? Any

13 objections? Any abstentions?

14 Okay. Next issue.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Dehumidification components,

16 an assembly that reduces the moisture content of the

17 supply air through moisture transfer with solid or

18 liquid desiccants. Liquid -- some examples are a

19 liquid desiccant system and desiccant wheels. DOE

20 would issue enforcement guidance indicating that

21 testing will not be performed on units with

22 dehumidification components; however, an otherwise
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1 identical unit must be available for testing.

2 MR. EISNER: Any comments or questions? Any

3 objections to this language? Any abstentions? You

4 know.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Indoor or outdoor fan motors,

6 VVD, a deice connected electrically between the

7 equipment's power supply connection and the indoor fan

8 motor that can vary the frequency of power supplied to

9 the motor in order to allow variation of the motor's

10 rotational speed. DOE would issue guidance that the

11 Department will not test a unit with an integrated

12 VFD; however, an otherwise identical unit must be

13 available for testing.

14 MR. EISNER: Any comments or questions?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so just a

16 clarification. If we have a unit, a model that is only

17 available with VFD, then you would test with the VFD;

18 correct?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Good. Thank you.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else? Anybody

22 have any objections?
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1 MR. HUNT: Should that be made explicit,

2 Bob's point?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can -- the whole --

4 there's a slide at the very end that has a summary

5 slide for all of these. It's going to have that

6 explicitly stated, and it's going to be a premise of

7 any of these guidance documents we issue.

8 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Any objections?

9 Any abstentions?

10 Next issue.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Condenser fan motor options

12 for ducting. A condenser fan motor assembly designed

13 for external ducting of condenser air that provides

14 greater pressure rise and has a higher-rated motor

15 horsepower than the condenser fan provided as a

16 standard component with the equipment.

17 DOE would issue guidance indicating that a

18 ducted unit would not be tested; however, an identical

19 non-ducted unit must be available for testing.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So -- Bob Whitwell again. So

21 in our case, we have -- the product -- it's not that

22 we have ducted and non-ducted models. We have product
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1 that can be ducted on the condenser side.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'd test that not ducted.

3 MR. WHITWELL: You will test it non-ducted;

4 right?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So unducted; right?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unducted.

8 MR. WHITWELL: That was the clarification I

9 was looking for. And I would guess that you would

10 also, like we spoke about last time on the evaporator

11 -- on the indoor motor, evaporator motor, you would

12 seek input on what is the standard motor to be tested

13 in that unducted

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It should be the one you

15 certify, your --

16 MR. WHITWELL: Right, so --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the base model you claim.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So there would be -- one of

19 the inputs could be a -- we would have to provide the

20 horsepower of that --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: The type of motor or

22 whatever you want, yes.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: However you differentiate

3 that.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So there will be

5 something in the certification to provide that.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, to that point -- Tom

9 Johnson -- it may not be ducting. Maybe it's a

10 different condenser fan blade, and it just -- it's

11 more efficient, but it requires a different motor? So

12 it's all about the motor that you're talking about

13 here and what you issue for standard testing.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not exactly what it

15 says.

16 MR. JOHNSON: You're right.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if that is where we're

18 going, we need to change some stuff, because that is

19 definitely not what that says.

20 MR. JOHNSON: That would be a different

21 situation than what --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is all about ducting.
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1 I mean, it includes the option where you have a larger

2 motor because you're ducting the unit, but it doesn't

3 include just offering a larger motor, period.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Yeah, what I'm talking

5 about is a different condenser fan blade, and it might

6 be a different motor. So how do you deal with that?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now, the way this is

8 set up? It's just a different base model or could be.

9 If it's more efficient, then you could claim it to be

10 --

11 MR. JOHNSON: No, it's really more from a

12 noise standpoint.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing here.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Can -- or, no, go ahead,

15 finish your comment.

16 MR. JOHNSON: No, I'm still thinking.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I was going to comment

18 on the language up there. So should that say, "An

19 unducted unit will be tested with a standard motor,"

20 or something like that? I mean, that's really what

21 we're talking about, what I understood your comment to

22 be.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: You know what? I think we're

2 okay, actually, the more I think about it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Yes, we can clarify

4 what that means.

5 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank. At the last

6 meeting, that point was exactly made, and at least

7 tentatively agreed to that the manufacturer would

8 specify the standard --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. That's the way I --

10 that was my --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's fine. It's just

12 a matter of how we do it.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Yeah, I just --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that was the intention

15 here.

16 MR. WHITWELL: That's what I thought. I

17 just thought -- I wanted to make sure that that was

18 understood.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: We have a question from Rodney

21 Beaver. I'm not sure I understand it. "Does this

22 mean that any units that are ducted our standard would
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1 be excluded?"

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. They would all have to

3 be tested.

4 MR. EISNER: There is no model available

5 that would be non-ducted.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: He has to test all of his.

7 And if he needs a test for seizure waiver, he needs to

8 come to the Department. This is the same issue we

9 went through a couple weeks ago.

10 MR. EISNER: Rodney, hope you heard that.

11 Okay. As changed, any more comments? Any

12 objections? Any abstentions?

13 MR. THARP: Before we move on to the next,

14 if I may. The last one was VFD indoor/outdoor fan.

15 And we added a compressor VFD towards the end or --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so. But I do

17 remember that coming up, similarly.

18 MR. THARP: Do you want to handle that now,

19 since you just did indoor/outdoor VFD?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, just go ahead and add

21 it on to that last one, however you want to do it.

22 MR. THARP: I would suggest just copy and
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1 pasting and changing indoor/outdoor fan in order to --

2 MR. WHITWELL: So, and just for

3 clarification, so this is where the VFD is an option

4 and is not required in order to operate the

5 compressor?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it's not the essential

7 basic compressor. Right.

8 MR. THARP: What do you want this one?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just compressor VFD. So,

10 instead of "and/or fan motor" and the description, put

11 compressor.

12 MR. SACHS: It sort of sounds a maybe not

13 intended consequence that where the VFD is an option

14 within a product line, could be part of the same basic

15 model group. Is that true? Although I'd be accepting

16 a lower efficiency rating.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct. Right.

18 MR. SACHS: But the word in here would

19 probably require a two-speed compressor to be treated

20 differently from a modulating compressor. Is it

21 explicitly is it about the kind of motor control, the

22 VFD, as opposed to something, like, say the speed two
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1 --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, three speed, you would

3 likely have a different base model.

4 MR. SACHS: It seems like you would have to.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: This is not essentially the

6 same.

7 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I think our original

9 description --

10 MR. SACHS: We'll see if it comes to a

11 reverse rotation two-piston unit?

12 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. TS.

13 MR. SACHS: TS.

14 MR. THARP: Harvey, this is Rusty from

15 Goodman. On the -- just a minor correction with your

16 statement, there's actually for a steady state EER

17 this compressor with VFD would be slightly less

18 efficient --

19 MR. SACHS: Sure.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's true --

21 MR. THARP: -- than the IER --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- than IEOs.
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1 MR. THARP: -- would be much better.

2 MR. SACHS: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So, in our general basic

4 description, we have an air moving system that's

5 comparable to the same, which means it's probably not.

6 MR. WHITWELL: At the test condition, it

7 would be the same.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you're right.

9 MR. WHITWELL: It would be comparable at the

10 test condition.

11 MR. EISNER: Any more comments on this? Any

12 objections to the language? Any abstentions?

13 Great.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Steam Hydronic Heat Options in

15 Indoor Fan Assembly, including a motor that drives the

16 fan that can deliver higher external static pressure

17 than the standard indoor fan assembly sold with the

18 equipment.

19 DOE will issue guidance indicating that an

20 identical model with electric resistance heating

21 should be tested and rated, rather than the hydronic

22 coil. The model is only offered with hydronic heat,
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1 then the hydronic model should be tested and rated.

2 MR. EISNER: Comments? Questions?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so question on this.

4 So -- or a comment. So, if a electric heat option is

5 not available, so that it's a product with options,

6 heat options, so either a steam coil or a hydronic

7 coil could be added in there, if electric heat is not

8 an option, then it has to be tested with the coil in

9 there. So, the alternative would be -- could be a

10 separate heating system, stand alone heating system

11 with a separate fan and has higher power implications

12 for the building.

13 MR. EISNER: Let the record reflect she was

14 nodding her head yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was trying to avoid that.

16 MR. WHITWELL: I'm sorry?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was trying to avoid that

18 record. I know where we're going with this. I don't

19 know what else -- what other options we have, though.

20 I mean, if an option -- if a unit is only available

21 with hydronic or steam heat, what do you want us to do

22 you?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I would say then you test the

2 system -- the unit without hydronic or steam coil. An

3 identical unit must be available without the hydronic

4 or steam coil, so you're testing the refrigeration

5 system in the unit as it would be provided for the

6 cooling operation, would be my recommendation.

7 MR. SACHS: Bob, I think I understand your

8 point, but the reason I'm quiet about the resistance

9 heat model as the alternative to be tested was my

10 sense is that an awful large fraction are sold with

11 some sort of heating section and this gives us a proxy

12 for representing the pressure mount. That's very

13 closely related to the refrigeration section.

14 MR. WHITWELL: For me, for my company, the

15 only product we have in this category that has steam

16 or hydronic heat, we have no electric heat option.

17 It's not -- has not been a requirement. So, what that

18 means is that I will put a electric heat option in the

19 catalog just to avoid testing with a steam and

20 hydronic so I don't have to add cost to the majority -

21 - to most of my product that I sell in this particular

22 line to increase the efficiency to overcome the loss
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1 of the extra coil.

2 My alternative is I increase the cost of my

3 whole product -- of my product model line or I add an

4 electric heat option that has not been required by the

5 market up to this point.

6 MR. SACHS: With the understanding that it

7 will never be sold?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Exactly. So.

9 MR. AMRANE: Could this be, for example,

10 another product class, group that within -- with the

11 product test with gas heat where you'll have it deduct

12 -- .2 EER deduct for the performance of the unit, for

13 example?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Could be another approach.

15 Or actually, that's a good point. Perhaps I'm not

16 thinking about this correctly. Maybe we should --

17 this is counted as gas heat or other, so I get the

18 lower efficiency standard with the hydronic or steam

19 heat coil. Which helps.

20 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

21 MR. WHITWELL: But I don't -- yeah, I don't

22 have an alternative.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: You can't build on something

2 with (inaudible).

3 MR. WHITWELL: No.

4 MR. AMRANE: So maybe this is a nonissue if

5 indeed it's part of that product class category,

6 because then it will be subject to .2 EER deduction

7 anyway. Maybe it's a nonissue.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I have to look at it to

9 see if the .2 EER deduct is enough to offset the coil.

10 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik of AHRI.

11 Maybe when you correct the description you can include

12 something in there about that. The description was

13 wrong the last time and it's still not fixed.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I wasn't here. What was the

15 description that you wanted to use?

16 MR. STANONICK: Oh, I don't remember that we

17 had one, I just noted that I don't -- I didn't write

18 that down, I just noted that it was pointed out that

19 description was not really describing steam hydronic

20 heat options. Somebody must have given a correction,

21 but I don't -- I didn't write it down.

22 FEMALE SPEAKER: We haven't gotten all of
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1 our transcripts back yet.

2 MR. STANONIK: In any case, when you do that

3 maybe you can put in that this should be considered

4 equivalent to the gas heat option or whatever you're

5 describing.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think that's a good

7 point. It would be considered as part of the gas heat

8 or other product class.

9 MR. STEM: This is Mike Stem with Intertek.

10 I've just got one comment to maybe ease Harvey's heart

11 burn. He's told me about the representative of the

12 resistance for the coil, heating coil. In all the

13 standards, there's the static table that would

14 simulate. So, assuming that was considered as part of

15 that coming up with the standards.

16 MR. AMRANE: Not with the gas --

17 MR. STEM: Not with the --

18 MR. AMRANE: Not for the --

19 MR. STEM: -- yeah, but if we have an

20 electric heat kit that's added to the blower furnace

21 now. How's that handled right now?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Say it again. I'm sorry.
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1 MR. STEM: Say, if you have an electric heat

2 kit right now that's added to a coil blower assembly,

3 how is that handled right now?

4 MR. WHITWELL: It's tested.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It's tested.

6 MR. STEM: It's tested with it?

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Part of the internal

8 static pressure process.

9 MR. STEM: Okay.

10 MR. EISNER: So, other questions? Frank?

11 MR. STANONIK: I just want to answer the

12 question. Actually, the description on the handout

13 from the -- it's dated June 7th, it's actually Slide

14 13, is a description.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is it?

16 MR. STANONIK: "Heat exchanger located

17 inside the equipment that heats the equipment supply

18 or outdoor area using the heat delivered by steam or

19 hot water."

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We'll get that one.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: June 7th handout.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any other comments, concerns?

2 So you're adding the correct definition.

3 Does everybody have any objections? And do we have

4 any abstentions? Karim?

5 MR. AMRANE: I think before -- I think this

6 issue maybe you guys should looked at the current

7 regulations and see whether this will fit within the

8 gas heat product classes because if that's the case

9 then I don't think that probably, I don't know maybe

10 Bob will have to check with the .2, but whether it's

11 enough, I don't know, that might not be an issue.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I don't know. I'd have

13 to look at it. But that would certainly help.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's on the table; it says

15 "all other types of heating." It would qualify for

16 the points there.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, thanks.

18 MR. AMRANE: So maybe this one we can come

19 back later, because it's not an issue we can remove it

20 altogether.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can we vote on it and

22 then if we need to bring it back up, you can bring it
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1 back up tomorrow or at the next meeting? Is that

2 okay?

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections? Any

4 abstentions?

5 MR. SACHS: I'm going to abstain on this.

6 MR. EISNER: Anyone else?

7 Let's go on to the next issue.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Hot Gas Reheat. The heat

9 exchanger located downstream of the indoor coil that

10 heats the supplied air during cooling operation, using

11 high pressure refrigerant in order to increase the

12 ratio of moisture cooling to cooling capacity provided

13 by the equipment.

14 DOE would issue enforcement guidance that a

15 unit with hot gas reheat would not be tested.

16 However, an otherwise identical unit must be available

17 for testing.

18 MR. EISNER: Any comments or questions? Any

19 objections? Any abstentions?

20 Okay. I got three no's. On to the next.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Barometric relief. An

22 assembly with dampers and means to automatically set
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1 the damper position in a closed position and one or

2 more open positions, to allow venting directly to the

3 outside portion of the building air that is returning

4 to the unit, rather than allowing it to re-circulate

5 to the indoor coil and back to the building.

6 DOE would issue testing guidance indicating

7 that dampers would be fully sealed during the test.

8 The other two features, a fan that transfers

9 - - a powered exhaust is a fan that transfers directly

10 to the outside portion of the building air that is

11 returning to the unit, rather than allowing it to re12 circulate to the indoor coil and back to the building.

13 And powered return air is a fan that draws building

14 air into the equipment.

15 And for powered return air and powered

16 exhaust, DOE would issue enforcement guidance

17 indicating DOE would not test units with powered

18 return air, powered exhaust, so long as an otherwise

19 identical unit is available for test.

20 MR. EISNER: Any comments or questions? Any

21 objections? Any abstentions?

22 All right. We're in agreement. Next issue.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Fresh Air Dampers. An

2 assembly with dampers and mains to set the damper and

3 in a closed and one open position to allow area to be

4 drawn into the equipment when the indoor fan is

5 operating.

6 DOE will issue test procedure guidance

7 indicating that dampers would be fully sealed for

8 testing.

9 MR. EISNER: Any questions or concerns? Any

10 objections? Any abstentions?

11 We are in agreement. Next issue.

12 MS. BARHYDT: High Efficiency Air

13 Filtration. An assembly of air filters and filter

14 brackets or racks that provides greater air filtration

15 than the air filtration assembly available for sale

16 with the equipment that provides the lowest air

17 filtration -- that doesn't look like what we discussed

18 last time. Is it?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: No. It's not -- I'm agreeing

20 with you, it does not look like --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. It does not look

22 like what we discussed last time.
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1 MR. THARP: The AHRI Unitary Large Equipment

2 Engineering committee met on -- and discussed air

3 filtration. And the position that they're taking at

4 this point is that if the unit has the capability for

5 factory or installed air filters, than the filters

6 shall be installed during the test. If the type of

7 filter is optional and no standard filter is supplied,

8 then 0.08 inches of water column static pressure shall

9 be added to the discharge static pressure or do

10 another test.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. But --

12 MR. THARP: So, our suggestion --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the caveat is going to be

14 that's going to require a test procedure rule. That's

15 not a quick solution.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I know.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, as long as we

18 realize that in the interim we're left with status quo

19 of today.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, why couldn't you put

21 that in as guidance, that you would insist that it be

22 tested or added -- or the pressure drop be added? You
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1 know, be tested with --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't do other guidance.

3 It'll never get out of the law side of our shop.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Could it say that DOE will

5 test with the manufacturer's standard filter? Because

6 I know for us anyway, we have what we call a standard

7 in our catalog and then we have the higher efficiency

8 options. And I assume that most manufacturers would

9 have the same.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I think Bob, at the ULE

11 meeting there were some manufacturers saying they ship

12 without filters.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, okay.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: So, they would test it

15 without.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I wasn't at the ULE

17 meeting.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: So, they ship without, so the

19 problem became -- and that's why we were putting back

20 in the .8 inches in there so that everyone was at the

21 same playing tilt, right?

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: So that becomes the problem,

2 if it's shipped without --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I understand. But if

4 it's shipped without, the manufacturer still would

5 have a standard filter most likely; right? I don't

6 know if that was part of the discussion at the ULE

7 meeting. Dick was there, but I haven't caught up with

8 him.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't really recall that.

10 So, I was there, but I mean, we didn't go in to

11 everybody's specifics.

12 MR. FLY: So, state your question again,

13 because I didn't catch what you said.

14 MR. WHITWELL: So, would everybody -- even

15 manufacturers that don't ship with a filter, would

16 they have, in their literature, something that would

17 be described as their standard or their -- a standard

18 filter?

19 MR. FLY: I don't think that came up.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, it didn't. It didn't

21 come up in that light.

22 MR. SACHS: I very much endorse Jill's
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1 thought that if this requires a rulemaking that it's

2 worth doing. On the other hand, I'm quite

3 uncomfortable with using air filtration policy

4 standard as an efficiency parameter, instead of a

5 pressure drop.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I do, too.

7 MR. SACHS: My gut reaction is that .08

8 sounds awful low to me, so I'd like to see some

9 literature. And my sense is that we ought to at least

10 be thinking about a) capacity dependence for that

11 static pressure, and b) making sure that we're not

12 setting up a test procedure that gives results that

13 would not be sort of the default for people trying to

14 decide compliance with 62.1 and similar indoor

15 environmental quality standards.

16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON.

17 Harvey, just to kind of give you a clue as to what was

18 discussed, at least at the ULE meeting, you know, the

19 .08 was a standard that came out of the residential

20 equipment standard, or small equipment standard and

21 which is usually equipment with eight coils in it.

22 So, the area of the coil versus the area of the filter
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1 on those units is usually a lot smaller than it is on

2 commercial equipment, which is usually a flat pin

3 coil.

4 So, we actually have bigger filter areas in

5 commercial equipment. We also tend to put better

6 filtration in some of them, but you know, for a

7 standard that's kind of where we got to. And at least

8 that group felt that the .08 was a reasonable number

9 still, even with slightly higher filtration standards.

10 But I don't have any data to give you.

11 MR. THARP: Harvey, this is Rusty. I'll

12 throw in, reading an email that was sent to me. "Our

13 product line offers angle filters that have clean air

14 pressure routes ranging from 0.03 to 0.09 inches and

15 HRI air quality across MERV 6 filters."

16 MR. SACHS: Well, this is very helpful. I

17 think that we're all in agreement that with a

18 rulemaking we have the ability to explore what the

19 appropriate relationships are. And all the external

20 factors range from 360 to 62.1. Thank you. So we're

21 in agreement.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: So, back to the Department,
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1 knowing -- there are many things that we're going to

2 change about the Unitary 343-60 and hopefully shortly

3 going to get those done and it'll be published. You

4 know, and I realize you're going to have to go through

5 a rulemaking on that, but in the meantime, do we need

6 to be putting words in about that?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer's yes. It

8 changes the way the current test procedure is

9 currently implemented. Then yes. The key here is

10 through guidance, which we can do really quickly, we

11 can only clarify the existing language, we cannot

12 completely change or come up with requirements, that

13 requires a rule.

14 Now, but that being said, we can kick off a

15 rule tomorrow and try to see how quickly we can do it.

16 MR. FLY: And the ULE Engineering Committee

17 is diligently trying to get the latest -- their test

18 standard up to date, so no you can't kick it off

19 tomorrow, because we're not done yet. We're trying to

20 get there just as quickly as we can, knowing that this

21 is coming.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I will encourage --
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1 there's a variety of things that we've gone through

2 here that we've said we'll accept guidance on that the

3 Department would probably handle differently in a test

4 procedure, if we had a full blown open rule. So, and

5 we do plan to do it differently in the next rule that

6 comes up.

7 MS. JAKOBS: So, this is Diane Jakobs from

8 Rheem. And the fact that we're using the word "high"

9 doesn't that imply that there's a standard version?

10 So, we're just saying the Department would purchase,

11 if there was an option for a air filtration, the

12 Department would choose the less option. So, I would

13 take out the 6 MERV part and say that you would select

14 a standard filter as opposed to a high efficiency

15 filter. I'm not sure I'm talking into the microphone.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, so I wasn't at

17 the last discussion, but the initial discussion was

18 what's a standard. And standard is something

19 different across different manufacturers, so there was

20 some concern that standard be uniform. If that

21 concern has been alleviated and we're okay with just

22 standard, I don't know what the Department's position
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1 is, I'd have to think about it for a minute, but if

2 we're okay with standard being whatever is shipped

3 with the unit, and if it's not shipped with the unit I

4 do think there needs to be a default. And the

5 default, unfortunately, can't be a correction factor

6 at this point in time, but that can be our goal.

7 MR. WHITWELL: I'd be willing to supply the

8 default filters for any other manufacturers.

9 MS. MEYERS: So, could you say short term,

10 if she has procedure guidance, the unit will be tested

11 with no filter or the manufacturer's stated standard

12 filter? We all state what our -- I mean, it's an

13 option in the nomenclature that it's no filter or the

14 standard filter or whatever. So, testing the unit,

15 you know, standard filter may be different for every

16 manufacturer, but I think that's okay.

17 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I don't know what the

18 alternative is at this point. Right? If we can't put

19 an alternative in there, what's the alternative?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And --

21 MR. THARP: Let me throw out one idea here.

22 If you can't -- the test procedure says to test per
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1 the IO. Correct? If the manufacturer's IO, we all

2 say something about air filters and keeping air

3 filters clean, so therefore if you issue a test

4 procedure guidance that says a certain filter pressure

5 drop, like we have, then you're just giving -- the

6 position would be that you're giving a guidance off of

7 a manufacturer recommendation. So, you aren't really

8 changing the test procedure.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: We can do that. I mean, we

10 could clarify that.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Just another option is until

12 we can get the test procedure in there to add use of

13 the filter its shipped with or the .08, maybe the way

14 to level the playing field is to test with no filter.

15 MR. KOJACK: This is Mike Kojack with UL.

16 I'm kind of getting confused what we're talking about,

17 because isn't it we test with the filter shipped with

18 the unit? If not shipped with the unit it should say

19 in the instruction manual what filter should be there.

20 And if it's not in the instructions why can't you just

21 contact the manufacturer to find out what the standard

22 filter is and then purchase it and test it?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: We were doing well until we

2 get that last point.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Actually about could there be

4 guidance in here that the manufacturer provides in the

5 PDF that we provide as part of the certification, what

6 the standard filter should be that's used for testing?

7 MR. KOJACK: Because that's what we were

8 saying before, for the third party test labs, if

9 there's any pertinent information the third party test

10 lab needs to kind of in order to test the unit, it

11 should be there, so maybe that should be in there. If

12 they're shipped with no filter, at least that's

13 implied.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to play devil's

15 advocate for a minute. So, a couple things. One is,

16 I think if it's in the I&O manual, if it says what

17 kind of filter is there, if it's shipped with a

18 standard filter, those are not the issues. It's what

19 if you have no information, that's the issue.

20 And just calling up the manufacturer, we've

21 already just -- we will talk about the process for

22 potentially verification testing, but we've already
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1 gone through some of it where you're not just going to

2 be calling up the manufacturer.

3 MR. KOJACK: Well, I --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we're trying to

5 alleviate as much of that --

6 MR. KOJACK: -- probably said that I meant

7 you guys and you kind of --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but we're trying to

9 alleviate as much of that as possible.

10 To your point, yes, we could do that, but

11 you're not -- right now, you don't have to certify

12 until December 31st. And in theory, you know, at

13 least we wouldn't have that information available.

14 And I'm not saying we need it now, but I assume that

15 there needs to be some type of interim solution. I

16 don't know.

17 I will say, if your I&O manual is different

18 than the instructions you upload, we're going to have

19 some issues.

20 MR. WHITWELL: You mean the instructions in

21 the PDF?

22 MS. MEYERS: Then I think I agree with Bob.
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1 I mean, it should be that we test with no filter.

2 MR. WHITWELL: In the interim.

3 MS. MEYERS: In the interim.

4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm not necessarily

5 recommending that, but I don't understand what

6 alternatives we have.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, we can write

8 language and say we test with the filters shipped or

9 the test lab must purchase a filter that meets the

10 specifications in the I&O. It's just that if it's

11 not, what do we do?

12 And I don't understand why can't we say, if

13 there's not one specified, if it's not shipped with

14 the unit, you must -- the standard filter is X.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I think because the issue is

16 if we're going to specify a filter we're either going

17 to specify a filter with a certain pressure drop,

18 which is what we want? Or a MERV rating.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if you want something

20 specifically for a given unit's performance, why

21 wouldn't you put it in your I&O or ship it with the

22 unit? I mean --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: We would ship a filter with

2 the unit.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, then there would be no

4 issue, you would never get to that case. It's if you

5 don't.

6 MR. WHITWELL: I'm not worried about our --

7 I mean, we have standard filters that we would ship

8 with the filter, but I understand there's some

9 manufacturers that don't ship filters with the unit.

10 So, we need to have something for that; right?

11 MR. AMRANE: Is Karim with AHRI. What's

12 wrong with just putting the default pressure drop?

13 You could test at 0.08.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Because that's changing the

15 test statement; right?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. We can't do that.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Changing the test statement.

18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, eventually. Right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, that's the

20 goal.

21 MR. AMRANE: That's the goal.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We got that. We all agree
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1 on the goal?

2 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

3 MS. MEYERS: Well, but you're trying to

4 define the X, as you said. And the X could be a

5 pressure drop of .08. I mean, that's just what you

6 said you wanted to do.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. The term

8 "nuclear option" was (inaudible) yesterday or the day

9 before. It's just a reminder that there are a few of

10 these issues, to my present one, that might just be

11 amenable to wrapping up the package and sending it

12 over to the Hill, where they're so fast and responsive

13 nowadays. No, it's a parallel path, but I think it is

14 something to be kept in mind, the things that are

15 purely technical, where there is consensus coming from

16 those here.

17 MS. MEYERS: I think the issue all the

18 manufacturers have agreed to the unit will be tested

19 with a manufacturer's standard air filter. In a case

20 where an air filter is not shipped with the unit, a

21 pressure drop of .08 will be applied. So, you've got

22 the industry's buy-in on that, and that's better than
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1 - - the MERV rating a pressure drop -- there is no

2 pressure dropped assigned with the MERV rating. So, I

3 think that's the solution.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, and to add on to

5 that, I mean, we can't just tell you, test with a Farr

6 (ph) 3030 such and such and such and such, because in

7 each unit it's going to be different.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. And I would just

9 --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: So, that's the hard thing.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- no, and I get it. So,

12 that's why I'm trying to write language where this is

13 the anomaly, right? If you guys have a specific

14 performance that you're trying to achieve with a given

15 filter, a certain pressure drop that you expect to get

16 your rated conditions, that you've gone so far as to

17 ship the unit with it or put it in your I&O. If you

18 care that much about hitting that pressure drop to

19 your performance, then you've taken care of one and

20 two, and you never get to three.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Our literature is going to --

22 not going to say that is the filter to meet the test
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1 performance per the test standard; right? But we are

2 going to have what would be the nominal or the

3 standard filter and then there are higher filtration

4 options.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's what we would be

6 testing. I mean, really this just becomes an issue if

7 you say nothing.

8 MS. MEYERS: If what?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You say or do nothing. We

10 can put in the .08, I can't promise you that it's

11 going to come out that way. I understand that that's

12 the goal, but if you intend -- if your unit so close

13 to rated -- or the standard at rated conditions that

14 you need a specific pressure drop, using a specific

15 filter, then -

16 -

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Put it in.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Put it in. Make it

19 specific.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, one more question or

21 comment. So, you're talking about the I&O which I

22 guess is Installation and Operations Manual. I'm not
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1 sure our filter options are listed in there. They

2 would be listed in the product catalog; right? So --

3 MR. THARP: And going back to this is --

4 part of the reason for the description of this title

5 is some manufacturers have filtration as an option.

6 So, I just want to make sure it's clear that if an

7 optional high efficiency MERV 16 filter is installed

8 in the unit and is acquired for testing, then do you

9 take out the MERV 16 and put in the standard filter or

10 whatever it was?

11 MS. BARHYDT: That's what that says.

12 MS. MEYERS: So, just one more question.

13 So, why couldn't we just say test it without a filter,

14 since the filter's not part of the test procedure?

15 Because there are cases where you don't ship a filter,

16 especially if the external filter rack is supposed to

17 be supplied at the jobsite or whatever. So, there are

18 those options where it's not -- what you don't want to

19 do is get in a situation where you ship the filter and

20 on some of our units we don't, because they just throw

21 them away.

22 MR. WHITWELL: But --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at the end of the day

2 there's always some type of filter in that system.

3 MR. WHITWELL: But I think --

4 MS. MEYERS: Why?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, why shouldn't they be

6 tested with one?

7 MS. MEYERS: But it's not always under the

8 manufacturer's control. I mean, we may not ship it

9 with one. That's what I'm saying.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your unit is operating with

11 one.

12 MR. THARP: And it may not even get

13 installed in the manufacturer's position.

14 MR. WHITWELL: But the case of where a

15 unit's tested, DOE is going to order, or someone's

16 going to order a unit for DOE. And whoever does that

17 would specify a standard filter; right?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So, that -- Karen, in that

20 case you would supply a filter, right? Or you could

21 supply --

22 MS. MEYERS: Well, I mean, sometimes the
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1 filters not even going in my product.

2 MR. WHITWELL: With some customers you don't

3 ship it, a filter in the unit, is what you're saying?

4 MS. MEYERS: Um hmm.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Or you just don't have a

6 filter for some products?

7 MS. MEYERS: Well, there are pieces where

8 the job might call for some type of external filter

9 that I don't manufacture.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But I think in the

11 case that we're speaking about here, DOE is going to

12 order a unit and they're going to ask for the standard

13 filter from your literature. So, there shouldn't be a

14 unit -- you shouldn't ship a unit without a filter in

15 this case, because it's specified. I think; right?

16 MS. MEYERS: It is specified by the test

17 procedure?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no. I think DOE would

19 ensure that when they order the unit that they specify

20 that they need the standard filter.

21 MS. MEYERS: Well, why does DOE need the

22 standard filter if it's not specified in the test
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1 procedure? That's my question. I mean, you've made

2 all these other statements that you -- you know, the

3 test procedure doesn't allow for that, we can't do

4 that test procedure because -- well, in this case, the

5 test procedure doesn't allow for this, but you're --

6 you know, so you're kind of --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's set up per your

8 I&O. To the extent you have -- or per manufacturer's

9 instructions. To the extent you have instructions of

10 a filter to use, that is what we're talking about

11 here. And we're trying to find what a standard filter

12 is. The question becomes, if there's no -- what the

13 equitable position if there's no manufacturer

14 instructions, period, on filter use.

15 MR. SACHS: And Karen, I'd like to go back

16 to your question, why should it be tested with a

17 filter of any kind. I'm personally concerned about

18 it, not in terms of the filter, but in terms of the

19 effect of changing the static pressure, land flow --

20 the air flow, not only on efficiency, but also on SHR.

21 And I'm probably over sensitive from my experience

22 with residential product where the default static
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1 pressures are so far (inaudible) field experience

2 we've all been around that tree a number of times, but

3 it just seems to me that where it's feasible we really

4 want the rating method to come close to what the

5 product's supposed to do. So, that's my prejudice;

6 John, I think, tell me if I'm wrong.

7 MS. JAKOBS: But I just think that it's part

8 of the test procedure discussion. We're not change

9 the test procedure and it doesn't require a filter as

10 part of the test procedure, then we can't impose a

11 filter. Right?

12 MR. KOJACK: How about this. You know,

13 since you're going to be working on changing the test

14 procedure in the future to allow for testing with no

15 filters, with a pressure drop penalty, how about for

16 right now just have it say, you test with the filter

17 that was shipped. If it's not shipped, you test with

18 the filter that's in the instruction manual. And if

19 it's not in there, you test it with no filter. And

20 the manufacturers that are actually doing it that way,

21 when you change the rule -- the testing procedure,

22 they're the ones that are going to be affected the
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1 most, because then they're going to have to change

2 their ratings if their rating with no filter

3 whatsoever and you're going to impose a point of

4 weight or whatever pressure drop on it, their ratings

5 are going to be changed then, if they're not ever

6 testing with anyone filtration in the first place.

7 So, it's going to kind of force them to want

8 to test with filters because it's going to be changed

9 to that anyway.

10 MR. AMRANE: As far as AHRI is concerned,

11 we're going to make a change to the standard right

12 now. We're going to stop doing -- we're going to do it

13 right away, so we're going to do whatever the standard

14 you're saying, which is just the filter that comes

15 with it or we're going to use default pressure. But

16 as far as AHRI is concerned, we're going to start

17 implementing this right away. So, I see no problem

18 with DOE adding this (inaudible). Now, whether we can

19 do it or not, I don't know.

20 MALE SPEAKER: The lawyers will make the

21 decision.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Technically, whether you can
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1 do it or not, it can't be inconsistent with our test

2 procedure. So, that's what we're trying to avoid,

3 right? We're all in the -- just for now go forward

4 with this. I don't know what we're going to do for

5 something that's not shipped with one or not, but at

6 least we can agree to the first two provisions.

7 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers. Two points. One,

8 in the second bullet where it was changed from I&O or

9 whatever you were calling it for the instruction

10 manual to product catalog, shouldn't it be both? You

11 know, wherever you find it, either in the product

12 catalog or the instruction manual?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Just put manufacturer's

14 literature.

15 MR. MYERS: Because it could be in either

16 place.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Just put manufacturer's

18 literature.

19 MR. MYERS: And then the second one, I've

20 been listening to all of the discussion and maybe I

21 missed it, Ashley suggested that there was a default

22 filter instead of the 08. I assume that's because the
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1 legal aspect that you're allowed to stipulate a filter

2 now while we're trying to get the -- is that why you

3 were proposing that?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just going to say, take

5 out the situation where there's nothing and let's

6 decline to say anything about that at this point in

7 time, and let's vote on the other two.

8 MR. MYERS: Okay. Well, where I was going

9 and the reason for asking the question, Ashley, was

10 perhaps -- I never heard the question posed to the

11 group, let's go for the 08 on a change to the test

12 procedure and in the interim you have -- and I know

13 it's not equivalent, but if it would satisfy DOE, if

14 you have nothing in there you do a MERV 3 or a MERV 4.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I can pick a MERV 3 that has a

16 .1, I could pick a MERV 3 that has a .5, I can pick --

17 you can --

18 MR. MYERS: So, you could be more than the -

19 -

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. The MERV has

21 nothing to do with its pressure drop.

22 MR. MYERS: I heard that, but I was not
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1 aware that you could (inaudible) --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah.

3 MR. MYERS: -- above that.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: For my -- for the exact same

5 unit.

6 MR. MYERS: Is there a lower MERV that would

7 never go over the proposed level?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. When you look at their

9 face areas and --

10 MR. MYERS: Okay.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- filter manufacturers, there

12 is nobody the same.

13 MR. EISNER: Anything else? You want to

14 vote?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

16 MR. EISNER: All right. Anybody opposed to

17 the language up on the board? Anybody abstain?

18 Okay.

19 MR. MYERS: Just quickly before we leave

20 that, I know we voted, but in some other places when

21 we were doing work a month ago, we put in a notation

22 that a rulemaking would be implemented to achieve some
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1 goal. I don't know if you wanted to put that in as a

2 note here. It seemed like there was general agreement

3 that's what we wanted to do, so it might be a good

4 place to put some notation that that's the objective.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think that's

6 generally true for like 75 percent of this stuff, if

7 not all, honestly. I think the guidance option for

8 the Department is temporary.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Do we want to take a

10 break or do we want to go into this. It's 3:30?

11 MR. THARP: We're not too far from finishing

12 HVAC are we?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I hope not. Let's finish

14 HVAC, I guess. I don't think there's anything that's

15 controversial, except for the last one.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Hot gas bypass. A method to

17 adjust the cooling delivered by the equipment in which

18 some portion of the hot, high pressure refrigerant

19 from the discharge of the compressors is diverted from

20 its normal flow to the outdoor coil and is instead

21 allowed to enter the indoor coil to modulate the

22 capacity of a refrigeration circuit, or to prevent
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1 evaporator coil freezing.

2 DOE would issue enforcement guidance

3 indicating that units with hot gas bypass will not be

4 tested, however an otherwise identical unit must be

5 available for test. And this would be revisited in

6 the case of a switch to a part load metric.

7 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Questions? Any

8 objections? Any abstentions?

9 In agreement. Next issue.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Sound traps, sound

11 attenuators. An assembly and structures through which

12 the supply air passes before leaving the equipment or

13 through which the return air from the building passes

14 immediately after entering the equipment for which the

15 sound insertion loss is at least six decibels toward

16 the 125 hertz octave band frequency range.

17 Issue enforcement guidance indicating that

18 units with sound traps will not be tested, however any

19 otherwise identical unit must be available for test.

20 MR. EISNER: Any questions or concerns? Any

21 abstentions? Any problems? Harvey's not here?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, you get to ram it all
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1 through.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Next issue.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Fire, Smoke, Isolation

4 Dampers. A damper assembly including a means to open

5 and close the damper, mounted at the supply or return

6 duct opening of the equipment. Such a damper may be

7 rated by an appropriate test laboratory, according to

8 the appropriate safety standards, such as UL555 or

9 UL555-S.

10 DOE would issue enforcement guidance

11 indicating that units with fire, smoke, isolation

12 dampers will not be tested, however an otherwise

13 identical unit must be available for test.

14 MR. EISNER: Any concerns or questions? Any

15 objections? Any abstentions? Okay. We're in

16 agreement. Next issue.

17 MS. BARHYDT: UV lights. A lighting fixture

18 and lamp mounted so that it shines light on the indoor

19 coil that emits ultraviolet light shall inhibit growth

20 of organisms on the indoor coil surfaces, the

21 condensate drip pan and other locations within the

22 equipment.
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1 DOE will issue test procedure guidance that

2 UV lights do not need to be turned on for test.

3 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments?

4 Quick, before Harvey gets back. Does

5 anybody have any objections? Any abstentions?

6 Okay. Next issue.

7 MS. BARHYDT: High static indoor blowers,

8 oversized motors. An indoor fan assembly including a

9 motor that drives the fan that can deliver higher

10 external static pressure than the standard indoor fan

11 assembly sold with the equipment.

12 DOE's view is that all motors offered for

13 sale as options within a given basic model shall have

14 the same relative efficiency perform as the motor

15 included in the base unit. A motor of the same

16 relative performance as the base motor shall exhibit

17 the same percent lower losses from those permitted

18 under the prevailing federal efficiency standard as

19 the base motor.

20 For example, if the base motor has ten

21 percent lower losses than permitted by the federal

22 standard, all models in the group shall also use
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1 motors that have at least ten percent lower losses

2 than the federal standard.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Comments? Questions?

4 MR. WHITWELL: I'm not sure I understand.

5 So, the federal standard, there's a table in there by

6 horsepower for general purpose motors that has the

7 minimum efficiency level. Right? So, is this saying

8 that if your base motor is ten points higher than

9 what's in there, then all of your higher horsepower

10 motors must also exceed the minimums by ten points

11 efficiency?

12 MR. RIVEST: So, the NEMA people have

13 trained me to no longer think in terms of efficiencies

14 when we're dealing with 95 percent, but to think in

15 terms of losses. And so, the idea is that we're

16 trying to avoid the situation where a manufacturer

17 could use an extremely efficient motor in their base

18 design and then in their other designs that are not

19 tested, use a less efficient motor. Right?

20 So, if you were to use the minimum E-PAC

21 (ph) level for all motors, so it's a level playing

22 field. But the efficiency isn't the same at five
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1 horsepower as ten horsepower for the impact standards.

2 The bigger they are in horsepower the more efficient

3 they are.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I understand that.

5 MR. RIVEST: So, the idea is just to

6 normalize to say, if you have ten percent fewer losses

7 on your five horsepower federal standard, if you use a

8 ten horsepower, that motor should also have ten

9 percent fewer losses than the minimum. So, it's a way

10 of describing relative efficiency.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So, what is the minimum

12 efficiency that is regulated here? What is the -- or

13 I mean, sorry, the minimum horsepower size that's

14 regulated?

15 MR. RIVEST: Federal regulations cover every

16 horsepower, from fractional to probably 200.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So, where do the current

18 standards start?

19 MR. THARP: One.

20 MR. RIVEST: Yeah, you're looking at one.

21 Sorry, three phase more.

22 MR. THARP: This is three phase? For what
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1 efficiency --

2 MR. RIVEST: That's fine.

3 MR. THARP: -- general purpose electric

4 motors a five horsepower, six pole has a minimum

5 efficiency of 89.5. So, that has 10.5 percent losses.

6 So, therefore if I have a motor that's -- my base

7 model is 10 percent less losses, that motor would be

8 efficiency of 90.6, my five horsepower. So, that

9 means that for my ten horsepower version, the minimum

10 efficiency is 91.7, which is 8.3 percent losses and so

11 I'd have to have ten percent less losses or that motor

12 would have to be 92.5 percent.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You got it.

14 MR. WHITWELL: And where's this data, the

15 minimum efficiencies?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: CFR.

17 MR. WHITWELL: CFR --

18 MR. THARP: 31.25.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So, that goes --

20 what's the minimum horsepower size that's in there?

21 MALE SPEAKER: One horsepower -- three

22 quarter.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Three quarter.

2 MR. THARP: One horsepower.

3 MR. WHITWELL: So, and those are general

4 purpose motors? There are definitely -- sometimes I

5 think definite purpose motors are used, which are --

6 MR. RIVEST: So, the wording is such that

7 we're not limiting you to a particular type of motors.

8 So, whatever your definite purpose or general purpose,

9 I would assume you would continue to do that. So, the

10 idea of writing it this way, as opposed to referring

11 to (inaudible) is that there are many (inaudible).

12 So, this is -- it's a concept.

13 If you're going to use an extremely

14 efficient motor to qualify your basic model, you will

15 be using a very efficient motor for everything in that

16 grouping. If you're using the federal minimum, you'd

17 use the federal minimum.

18 MR. WHITWELL: And so, I guess the other

19 thing that this is saying, if I understand the tables

20 correctly, from what I've looked at, so your higher

21 horsepower options, the motors must be higher

22 efficiency than your standard.
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1 MR. RIVEST: That's just the standard, the

2 way it's written. The federal standard is higher

3 efficiency requirements for the more horsepower, not

4 because it's horser engines, it just --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right, no, I understand. But

6 I mean, the effect is that as you -- your higher

7 static option motors or higher horsepower motors are

8 always going to be higher efficiency than your base.

9 MR. RIVEST: They're always going to be

10 higher, but the ten percent will not always be the

11 same, the percent of the higher number.

12 MR. SACHS: And the thing that strikes me

13 most about this is that it's allowing you a path to

14 use a larger motor without having to have the same

15 watts per 1,000 CFM that you had with your base motor.

16 It's saying as long as it's as much premium as the

17 base motor is, relative to the federal standard,

18 you're okay. And that seems, to me, a neat approach.

19 I'm not sure that I'm hearing what happens

20 where the base motor is, say, general purpose belt

21 driven motor and I'm using the BRF direct drive motor

22 - - I'm sorry, ECM direct drive motor instead. But it
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1 seems to me that the principle is the same.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I just need to

3 understand this, because I hadn't seen this wording

4 here. And I --

5 MR. SACHS: Me, either. So I guess I'm just

6 quicker than you are, old man.

7 MR. WHITWELL: I guess you are. I mean, I

8 understand the concept now, okay, I just --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can sleep on it.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I was just going to say.

11 Can I have that exact wording overnight? You can have

12 some people look at it?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

14 MR. RIVEST: So I wrote up a numerical

15 example, just like you did, calculating actual watts

16 with the five and the ten horsepower. I prepared a

17 little spreadsheet, so you plug in, power your base

18 motor, minimum standard efficiency, the base motor

19 efficiency as installed. And it will give you the

20 required efficiency of your horsepower. Just what you

21 did in your head, basically.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And so, are we going to get a
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1 copy of this?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

3 MR. EISNER: Do you want to hold up voting

4 until you get a chance to think about it overnight?

5 GROUP: Yes.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So, one other question. So,

7 if a manufacturer does not meet this condition --

8 MR. RIVEST: You can get a --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but if --

10 MR. RIVEST: -- standard motor -- you can

11 put an efficiency motor in your base unit, you will

12 always be able to meet it.

13 MR. WHITWELL: General purpose motor?

14 MR. RIVEST: I'm not -- it doesn't give you

15 any specific --

16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but let me -- I want to

17 ask a question. So, if let's say a manufacturer does

18 not meet this condition, then those motors would be

19 subject to test. Right? Meaning those motors would

20 be subject to test?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's an option. Yep.

22 MR. RIVEST: Yes.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: And so to Harvey's question

2 before, let's say your standard motor is a belt driven

3 general purpose motor, but you have an option for an

4 ECM motor. How do we evaluate whether that meets this

5 requirement or not?

6 MR. RIVEST: Well, we excluded motors with

7 variable frequency drives from testing. And it's

8 otherwise the same kind of motor. The ECM it's more

9 complicated because it's integrated. I think ECM

10 motors are generally more efficient, even at steady

11 state induction motors, and you should be okay. Maybe

12 the Department -- because ECMs are all so variable,

13 the motors and are very efficient in the field, it

14 might be logical just to exempt ECMs from testing. I

15 mean, just like we really encourage optimizing, we

16 might want to encourage people to use ECMs. If your

17 option's an ECM, then I don't think that should be

18 open to much criticism. Where it's an ECM base motor

19 --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Then it's a problem.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then we would --

22 MR. RIVEST: It would be more of a problem,
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1 right. But that's also what we want to avoid. We

2 want to avoid people certifying using a super

3 efficient motor and then using less efficient motors -

4 -

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Of course there's also

6 an issue where ECM motors don't always deliver the --

7 don't always have the horsepower that's required to

8 drive more higher static applications. They're very

9 limited in their output.

10 MR. RIVEST: Right. But then it's only fair

11 that you should be able to certify ten horsepower

12 units with a five horsepower ECM, if it's not

13 available in ten horsepower.

14 MR. WHITWELL: So, ECM motors -- so it's all

15 a matter of efficiency. So, as long as we have data

16 from the manufacturer, have the motor curves that show

17 the peak efficiency is higher for our higher static

18 options then our standard, does that cover us?

19 MR. RIVEST: Higher relative to the

20 horsepower rating.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Right. Okay. Yeah.

22 MR. RIVEST: Not just immediately higher.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Right, higher than relative

2 to the horsepower rating. Higher or the same relative

3 to the horsepower rating (inaudible).

4 MR. SACHS: And this may work for now, but

5 if we're starting to think about issues to put in the

6 bank for rulemaking, I think we're all cognizant that

7 it gets a whole lot more complex. That it's certainly

8 still quite easy to put a really awful fan on the

9 backend of an ECM to get rid of stinky performance.

10 MR. RIVEST: Is that John speaking?

11 MR. SACHS: There certainly are people

12 creative enough to provide that solution to their

13 customers.

14 MR. EISNER: More issues or take a break?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can go to the next item?

16 Do you guys want to take a break before SPVU?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We can.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Can you put the last slide

19 back up during the break so I can write it down?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

21 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Next issue.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll go.

2 MR. EISNER: SPVU.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I convinced my

4 counterpart here, that in the sake of trying to get

5 through all these things, we're not actually going to

6 read them all to you.

7 So, we had a meeting with the SPVU and crack

8 manufacturer last week, I think. And so at that time

9 we heard their explanations as to why they may want

10 certain types of options to be considered for

11 different treatment, or where clarification may be

12 needed.

13 So, you put a position on here. We're

14 hoping we can vote on these today. If we can't,

15 that's a different story, you can bring them up but

16 hopefully there's not that many surprise it them.

17 This is the basic model definition. I added

18 the question, because I wasn't sure just that cooling

19 capacity in the commercial HVAC, we had nominal, I

20 didn't know if we wanted to have some type of

21 clarifying term around cooling capacity there.

22 MR. EISNER: Any thoughts on the right term?
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1 MR. THARP: These are cracks?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: These are SPVUs.

3 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham

4 from Allied Air. I think that within 1,500 BTUs is a

5 reasonable -- the nominal -- these products can go

6 from less than a ton to up to five tons. So, you may

7 get into a discussion of what's nominal.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, then let's do rating.

9 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) the catalog?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it is.

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, and that's fine. I

12 think we would be agreeable to that.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thanks. Are we ready

14 for a vote?

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anybody have any

16 objections? Anybody have any abstentions?

17 Okay. Features, cooper evaporator condenser

18 coil. Any questions or problems? Any objections?

19 Any abstentions?

20 Okay. Next issue is economizers. Anybody

21 have any questions or comments? Any objections? Am I

22 giving you enough time to read it?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: These are the same as the

2 other ones. They go pretty quickly.

3 MALE SPEAKER: Go page by page to go faster?

4 They're the same?

5 MR. EISNER: Well, you've still got to write

6 in unanimous. We can go quickly, but let me let you

7 read the whole page and then we'll just go through

8 them.

9 Okay. Any objection to any of them on this

10 page? Any abstentions?

11 Okay. Unanimous for all three.

12 Coated coils, correction capacitors, hail

13 guards, why don't you read the page.

14 MR. SACHS: These are all exactly parallel?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The top one is different

17 from the last set.

18 MR. AMRANE: I mean, I --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Commercial HVAC is the only

20 one.

21 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, I don't see why these are

22 treated different than the larger interior products we
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1 just discussed.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We treated them -- I mean, I

3 heard they are one to five tons; right? We treated

4 them more like those types of things.

5 MR. AMRANE: The others, the equipment, the

6 larger interior that we were just talking about, also

7 goes from one to --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can go back to that

9 position.

10 MR. AMRANE: No, I'm saying I don't

11 understand the logical behind DOE's decision. It's

12 same issue by -- it's the same thing, so why is it a

13 distinct product, one product differently from the

14 other?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's fair to say for

16 coated coils we need an exception. Now, if we feel

17 that we should treat everything uniformly, we can go

18 back.

19 MR. AMRANE: SPVUs should be treated like

20 the other product.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Like P-TAC?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: P-TACs are non-accepted.
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1 Right.

2 MR. AMRANE: I'm not talking about P-TAC;

3 those are not P-TACs. I mean, they are very different

4 than P-TAC. They're closer to the other product, the

5 large unitary, than they are for P-TAC, they're not

6 the same. I mean, SPVUs are very much like the other

7 product, so that's why I'm saying you make an

8 exception for the products, I don't see why you are

9 treating them differently.

10 MR. WINNINGHAM: I would agree with Karim's

11 comments. These are very much an applied product in a

12 rare variety of applications are much closer to the

13 commercial unitary large.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay, Wes Roan, you have a

15 comment?

16 MR. ROAN: Yes, I'd like to just agree with

17 both Karim and Dave. First of all, it's one through

18 six ton equipment in this category and also they are

19 very much like other package units, other commercial

20 units we've been talking about today. They're going

21 to react exactly the same and I think the same -- they

22 should be treated the same as the other products.
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1 MR. EISNER: Let's give DOE a few minutes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's okay.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay, go ahead, Harvey.

4 MR. SACHS: I guess that Karim and industry

5 are telling me that my conception of SPVU application

6 is not what I thought it was, that I have conceived

7 these as being implicitly space-constrained, small

8 unitary products that are designed for specific

9 applications such as portable classrooms, rather than

10 a general purpose product.

11 And to the extent -- and Ashley and John are

12 shaking their heads positively on that, no one else is

13 -- but to the extent to which that's true, it seems

14 that they're more P-TAC like than RTU like. Now, to

15 the extent that these are really competing in a market

16 like that for RTUs, other larger plot equipment, then

17 I'm wrong. But I sure would like to be -- see some

18 clarification about how these are actually applied.

19 MR. AMRANE: I'm going to let Dave speak

20 more about this, but the only similarity with P-TAC is

21 the space constraint part of it. Yes, you're correct

22 about space constraint. But as far as the applied
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1 part of it, it's very much like the unitary large

2 product.

3 MR. SACHS: Karim, this is Harvey. It seems

4 to me that it's not just in being somewhat space

5 constrained, but also in being very much designed and

6 applied for a special purpose application. The P-TAC,

7 in my view, is the predominately a Motel 6 solution,

8 where I stay. And the small package vertical unit is

9 predominately a portable classroom, construction

10 trailer type application. It's a product for an

11 application rather than general purpose, like an RTU.

12 MR. WINNINGHAM: You know, speaking for our

13 product, it is much larger and varied than what you

14 had specifically. Single package vertical covers a

15 variety of different type of applications from that,

16 to more institutional use, to commercial buildings, to

17 the hotel industry. I mean, it covers the gamut, a

18 variety.

19 The segment you were talking about is true,

20 that's one segment of the market, but that is not the

21 entire market. And Wes Roan, from Bard Manufacturing,

22 who is the key manufacturer of kind of the other
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1 aspect from what we manufacturer, might well comment

2 further on this.

3 MR. EISNER: Wes?

4 MR. ROAN: A good example of an alternate

5 use for type of product would be cooling for tele6 communication shelters, that are all over the United

7 States. And that's where we would see the need for a

8 coated coil, is that type of application where or it

9 might be a sea coast application and it needs that

10 coated coil.

11 So, it's not a construction trailer unit,

12 specifically. It's not a classroom unit,

13 specifically. It could be used in a number of

14 different applications.

15 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Wes for helping me

16 understand. You all have some sense of what fraction

17 of shipment -- first of all, the size range. Does it

18 go up above six tons? And what is the typical

19 shipment -- the typical unit look like? Does it look

20 like a three ton? Are we seeing a lot of shipments

21 into larger applications? I'm just trying to get my

22 hands around what the product really is. Appreciate
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1 your help.

2 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, Harvey, our product

3 is somewhat limited in scope. So, Wes, if you could

4 kind of chime in, because I think that the key here is

5 more reflective around the type of product that Bard

6 makes.

7 MR. ROAN: The product that we make, again,

8 goes from one to six ton. It is a vertical unit. It

9 ranges, capacity-wise one to six ton in these volume

10 range across those product lines.

11 Various different voltages, phases,

12 depending on the application. We build some for

13 indoor mounting, some for outdoor mounting. So, it's

14 a wide variety of different products and there's a lot

15 of different features and options.

16 Percentage of units that get this coated

17 coil, though, I would say is pretty small. It's

18 probably in the -- less than I would say seven, eight

19 percent get coated coils.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

21 MR. THARP: Harvey, I'll say I'm

22 disappointed that you stay at Motel 6, because they
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1 leave the lights on.

2 MR. SACHS: For the record, that was Rusty.

3 MR. EISNER: Any more comments? Are you

4 ready for a vote? Anybody object?

5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, I do. And I would like

6 to do an explanation as to why we're treating them

7 differently. What is the logic behind this decision?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think our position

9 is HVAC was the exception where DOE gave because of

10 the large variety of unique designs, the one-offs, the

11 customs, the built to order nature of the equipment.

12 And so that's the one we gave on. Our position is

13 that they should be tested.

14 MR. EISNER: Any other discussion on this?

15 Any other objections? Any abstentions?

16 Okay. The record should reflect we do have

17 one objection. No abstentions.

18 Go to the next issue. Correction

19 capacitors. Any comments?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The rest are the same, I

21 think.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: These are the same as the
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1 others.

2 MR. EISNER: Same objections you're saying?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, the rest are the same as

4 HVAC.

5 MR. EISNER: Oh, they're all the same.

6 Okay. Any comments on correction capacitors? Any

7 objections? Any abstentions?

8 Okay. That one unanimous.

9 Hail guards. Any comments? Any objections?

10 Okay. Let's go to the next page. I'll give

11 you some time to read them.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I would assume that --

13 I'm going to ask a question real quick and I'm going

14 to skip ahead. But the changes that we made to the

15 language and the clarifying language that we made to

16 HVAC, I assume I need to pull over. Correct?

17 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

19 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Questions?

20 Dehumidification components. Any

21 objections? Any abstentions?

22 Okay. Unanimous there.
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1 Condenser fan motor options. Any

2 objections? Any abstentions? Okay.

3 And then last, Steam Hydronic Heat Options.

4 Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay. Unanimous

5 vote on each of these.

6 You can take a chance to read this page.

7 Any questions or comments on any of the three?

8 Okay. The suggestion was made we vote on

9 all three. Anybody have any objections to any of

10 them? Anybody abstain on any of them? Okay. All

11 three are unanimous.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I will just clarify.

13 The first one, High Efficiency Air Filtration, the

14 filter and the .8 is already in the existing test

15 procedure, so no clarification needed here.

16 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments on

17 any of the three? Any objections to any of the three?

18 Any abstentions? Okay. All three are unanimous.

19 Any questions or comments on either of the

20 two? Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay.

21 These are also unanimous.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is the same
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1 language and if you want the evening to think about

2 it, this is the same language as for commercial HVAC.

3 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes, I think we're going to

4 need further review on this. This is small fractional

5 and I don't know that we have the same type of

6 weighting process on these.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. That's fine. The

8 concept, if we could find a similar concept, that's

9 fine.

10 MR. SACHS: We'd be happy if you just sold

11 all of them with ECMs.

12 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this?

13 All right. We'll postpone the vote until tomorrow.

14 Computer room air conditions, we'll just

15 follow the same procedure, have people read it?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

17 MR. HUNT: Excuse me. This is Marshall

18 Hunt, PG&E. I realized, and I was hoping to see it

19 show up, but last time I entered in some concepts for

20 evaporated cooling. It should go as exceptions, very

21 similar to economizers and to draw for a pre-cooler to

22 a condenser that could be similar to a condenser fan.
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1 Did those get lost? I think they did. AHRI. It was

2 the time before last.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, no. They refer

4 to just evaporatively cooled and water cooled units.

5 Correct?

6 MR. HUNT: No, they attach to RTUs.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Then apparently they

8 got lost in the stack this morning. I apologize,

9 that's my fault. We can bring them back.

10 MR. HUNT: Tomorrow or --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we'll bring them back

12 tomorrow morning. I remember typing them. Let me

13 just find the right version.

14 MR. HUNT: The good news is they're very

15 parallel to what we've already covered, because of the

16 way that (inaudible) air flow thing.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No issues. Thanks.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Computer room air

19 conditioning definitions, any questions? Concerns?

20 Any objections?

21 MR. SACHS: This is language that was

22 negotiated with crack manufacturers in the meeting
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1 last week, so they're all on board.

2 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes, this was the

3 definition that we went through at that meeting.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections? Any

5 abstentions?

6 Okay. Different features, why don't you

7 read the page.

8 Any questions or comments on any of the

9 three? Any objections?

10 MR. SACHS: I don't claim to know this

11 product class well, but given the claimed sensitivity

12 of the computer equipment itself, it's hard for me to

13 imagine that there would be a comparable coated

14 evaporator associated with this equipment. That is,

15 the environment is that corrosive --

16

17

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was the Department's

19 position as well, which is why we have all coils

20 should be tested, but those were on the list of

21 exclusions from the manufacturers and they did explain

22 that there were situations where they could be
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1 offered.

2 MR. SACHS: Well, I apologize for agreeing

3 with the Department this time.

4 MR. THARP: The condenser coil could easily

5 be.

6 MALE SPEAKER: That's different.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. That's different.

8 MALE SPEAKER: But not the evaporator.

9 MR. SACHS: If somebody wants to spec a

10 coated copper evaporator for this computer room.

11 That's what BNSA (ph) is spending that much money on.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Likely.

13 MR. EISNER: Any objections? Any

14 abstentions?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: These are the same.

16 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments on

17 any of the three? Any objections? Any abstentions?

18 Okay. All three are unanimous.

19 Any questions on either one? Any

20 objections? Any abstentions?

21 Okay. Unanimous.

22 BRF systems, less than 65,000 BTUH?
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1 MR. HUNT: Let me butt in real quickly. We

2 will need the evaporative -- condenser air evaporative

3 cooling component. We are starting to see that in

4 use.

5 MALE SPEAKER: In cracks?

6 MR. HUNT: Yes. When they're a split

7 system, obviously.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay, well, I'll have that for

9 tomorrow morning. Just say which one it's applicable

10 to.

11 So, during lunch, these are the ones that

12 you guys sent me. I tried to put them together real

13 quick, that you sent me this morning. So, these

14 should be reflective of what you've sent me, for the

15 most part.

16 MR. THARP: Bob, does this have your

17 revision on the definition basic model?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, the only question, I

19 guess, looking at this is do we need to have the last

20 sentence, "basic models also determine according to

21 tested combination definition," because that's in the

22 test procedure, the definition of the tested
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1 combination. So, I'm not sure it's required.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then it's probably not

3 needed.

4 MR. WHITWELL: It describes it there.

5 MR. EISNER: Other questions or concerns?

6 Any objections? Any abstentions?

7 Okay. Any questions or comments on any of

8 the three?

9 MR. HUNT: How do you do an economizer on a

10 VRF? Am I just thinking of the wrong product?

11 MR. THARP: It is a sister division that

12 manufactures the product and it is an option, even on

13 the ceiling mount.

14 MR. HUNT: So, they duct in? Okay.

15 MR. EISNER: Any other questions?

16 MR. WHITWELL: So, is it just bringing in

17 fresh air?

18 MR. THARP: I think it's actually

19 economizing and not fresh air. Just like, you know,

20 some you can't have an economizer with a area worker.

21 Most economizers install on rooftop units you can have

22 it, but you can't have an economizer.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any other questions?

2 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen. I just think

3 coated coils on VRF should be treated the same as

4 large

5 HVAC.

6 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on that

7 issue?

8 MR. THARP: I agree. Again, it's a very

9 small percentage of the market and that's one of the

10 reasons we're exempting more commercial HVAC because

11 it's in the low single digits.

12 MR. EISNER: Jury response the same?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm thinking of my response.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why would it be treated any

15 different if it's really the same applications?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the Department's

17 position generally, across the board, is that they

18 should be tested. We do not feel that coated coil

19 should be an exception. Coated coils we have in a lot

20 of different equipment. We have in residential and

21 commercial space as well. And they're subject to

22 testing and they're subject to verification and
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1 they're subject -- they must meet the standards, et

2 cetera, et cetera. So, I guess that, the commercial

3 HVAC we gave, we made an exception.

4 VRFs are a newly regulated product. There's

5 not a legacy here that we're dealing with. Our

6 position here is that they should be eligible for

7 testing.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Keep in mind you can still put

9 them in --

10 MR. EISNER: Would you repeat what you said?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The correct way to do this,

12 if coated coils are such a big issue, the correct way

13 to do this would be to deal with them as a product

14 class. That is how our regulatory structure allows.

15 Now, I realize for certain types of

16 equipment that have been regulated for a long time,

17 and we've never addressed the issue, that we needed to

18 come to a negotiated solution, and that's what we were

19 trying to do.

20 MR. CLEMENTS: I guess the only point of

21 clarification, from my point of view, is that we

22 consider ourselves commercial HVAC. You know, our
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1 product happens to be --

2 MALE SPEAKER: Can you speak close to the

3 mic, please.

4 MR. CLEMENTS: John Clements, Mitsubishi

5 Electric. What I said was we consider our products to

6 be commercial HVAC. The market differentiation that

7 you're calling it VRF, but at its core it is

8 commercial HVAC. So, it is for the same purpose, the

9 same applications, the same buildings, we don't see

10 any reason to (inaudible) the separation.

11 MR. THARP: Second what John says, in that

12 VRF is really a subset of commercial HVAC.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So, you're arguing that we

14 should test the coated coils for the HVAC, too, then?

15 MR. THARP: No.

16 MS. BARHYDT: No?

17 MR. THARP: Again, stating industry's

18 position that overall we're saving energy over the

19 life of the product. And that's our position is that

20 we feel that we're --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, well --

22 MS. MEYERS: You're increasing the testing
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1 burden and certification for a very small percentage

2 of the market that saves a lot of energy. So --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or not, right? Because they

4 can still be grouped, they don't need to be tested

5 separately, you still have your AEDM you can still

6 call them the same base model.

7 MR. THARP: But that's saying is I need --

8 we say that the coated coils call it one percent

9 reduction in performance off the shelf. That means I

10 have to increase -- for two percent of my production I

11 have to increase efficiency on the other 90-some

12 percent in order to make sure that that one percent is

13 covered. If that makes sense.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does. I mean, if you're

15 that close to the standard, you're really that close

16 to the standard.

17 MR. THARP: In some product -- you know,

18 when a manufacturer develops a product --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we gave you a five

20 percent tolerance.

21 MR. THARP: Well, five percent tolerance --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: You gave us a five percent
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1 tolerance for manufacturing, not variance.

2 MR. THARP: Right.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not testing variance,

4 which we can prove up to eight percent testing

5 variance.

6 MR. WHITWELL: So, does this mean -- I guess

7 the way I was interpreting the position on these is

8 that where things are exempt from testing, they also

9 are not factored into the rating. But where they are

10 subject to testing, they need to be in the rating.

11 So, what Rusty is saying is correct. He's

12 going to be adding cost to the vast majority of his

13 product to cover that two percent that have the coated

14 coils.

15 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with Lennox.

16 That's if the manufacturer chooses to modify the 98

17 percent to cover the two. You could have an intended

18 circumstance where the manufacturer chooses not to do

19 that and add cost to the 90 plus percent. Coated

20 coils can be done in the field. So, I would say what

21 you ask for, you might get it.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: And to add to what John said,
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1 if you've ever seen a coated coil in the field, it's

2 your worst nightmare.

3 MR. THARP: Those will definitely increase

4 energy consumption significantly, because the field

5 applied coatings block half the coil, approximately.

6 MR. EISNER: Wes Roan, online, you have a

7 comment?

8 MR. ROAN: Yeah, I was just going to mention

9 that this is the same type of discussion that we have

10 at SPVU and I just haven't heard any kind of good

11 argument that says why one coated coil should be

12 allowed and another not allowed, depending on what

13 particular product. It's the same treatment; we all

14 use them, they ought to be treated all the same.

15 MR. THARP: I'll say I feel guilty, at this

16 point, for not objecting to the SPVU. And also Lennox

17 was out of the room at the time during the vote. I'm

18 sure if Lennox was in they probably would have

19 objected.

20 MALE SPEAKER: They probably would have.

21 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo, and this is

22 maybe not going to be helpful, but the way I sort of
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1 had approached this was in thinking about coated

2 coils, the ones that seem most problematic to me are

3 the ones not just the sea coast applications for

4 industrial type applications where they're going to be

5 exposed, I guess the evaporator coils, to some sort of

6 really harsh chemicals in their every day use.

7 And I'm wondering if that's the type of

8 thing that we could look at across all the product

9 categories, rather than broadly exempting coated coils

10 for certain types of products. That was just a

11 thought.

12 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Questions?

13 MR. HON: I'd like to -- coated coils, if

14 they would possibly come up with a much more

15 descriptive and much more severe protective coating,

16 say 2,000 hours as a specialty, could that be

17 exempted?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Can you say your name?

19 MALE SPEAKER: Charlie.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Charlie.

21 MR. EISNER: Reaction to that?

22 MR. THARP: Manufacturer reaction to 2,000
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1 hours G85 or 117 is extremely (inaudible). I don't

2 think much of the product at all would be left after

3 2,000 hours.

4 MR. HON: But we're trying to discuss a

5 special case application here, severe industrial

6 application. Could we come up some number --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Agreed, Charlie. But if you

8 look at AIA specifications or any of the typical CSI

9 specifications for these environments, 500 hours is a

10 commonly specified amount. So that is what the

11 consulting engineers are asking for for these

12 environments. Anyone doing over and above that is

13 doing over and above and, you know, applauded for

14 that. But I'm just saying the standard practice is 500

15 hours.

16 MR. EISNER: Any other comment? I suggest

17 we vote on economizers and snow wind guards first.

18 Anybody have any objections to those two? Anybody

19 have any abstentions?

20 Okay, I'd like to take a five minute break

21 and we'll think about the remaining issue on this page

22 for a couple minutes. Like to talk to some people
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1 about it.

2 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

3 MS. BARHYDT: If everyone can just pay

4 attention to make sure that you continue to speak

5 clearly and loudly. We're having a little bit of

6 trouble with the recording, making sure that she's

7 able to pick up all of the discussion. In particular,

8 people seem to be dropping off as they talk.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay, let's see if we can have

10 a little more discussion and get some resolution on

11 coated coils.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We will give. We'll

13 do coated coils like HVAC or VRF.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Vote. Quickly.

15 MR. EISNER: Ready to vote? Do you want to

16 ask why?

17 MR. SACHS: You just want to go home or

18 what?

19 GROUP: Yes.

20 MALE SPEAKER: All coated coils are not to

21 be chosen to test?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're only talking about
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1 VRFs.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions?

3 MR. CLEMENT: We're fine with it so far.

4 Mitsubishi Electric, we're fine with it. It protects

5 us, if that's the way we're going.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We gave what you -- you got

7 what you wanted. So, you should be very happy.

8 MR. EISNER: VRF will be treated like HVAC.

9 MR. CLEMENT: Thank you.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay.

11 MR. AMRANE: Yes, thank you, but we should

12 treat as PVU the same.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Don't be greedy.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. We're going to vote.

15 Any objections? Any abstentions?

16 Okay, it's unanimous. Everybody want to go

17 home now?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay, next issue. Hill guards,

20 fresh air dampeners, high efficiency air filtration.

21 Position for vote, question marks.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I understand -- this was
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1 on the list that I got this morning and it didn't have

2 a position on it. None of them did; I just kind of

3 made it up as I went. But I think this is taken care

4 of in the test procedure, in terms of what filter to

5 use and then there's the default. You want to speak

6 up back there?

7 MR. STEM: It is.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that's Mike from

9 Intertek, since he doesn't want to come to the

10 microphone, saying it's dealt with in the test

11 procedure.

12 MR. EISNER: Any other questions or comments

13 on these three? Some people need time to read it.

14 Okay, any --

15 MR. SACHS: The wording is off. I assume

16 you're going to edit the wording, I know what "Lois

17 Air Filtration" means.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I will edit the

19 wording. I was copying and pasting during lunch really

20 quickly.

21 MR. EISNER: Do we want to vote on these now

22 or, Harvey, are you saying we should wait till --
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1 MR. SACHS: No, it's fine.

2 MR. EISNER: It's fine. Okay. Any comments

3 or questions on any of these three? Any objections?

4 Any abstentions?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, someone's going to have

6 to explain what you mean by "electric heaters," and

7 why they shouldn't be included for testing.

8 MR. THARP: What was the position?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: There was no position and

10 then --

11 MR. THARP: On commercial HVAC?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's not one. They're

13 tested.

14 MR. THARP: Keep the same as commercial

15 HVAC.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is a nonissue.

17 Just remove it.

18 MR. EISNER: And on the remaining two, any

19 questions or issues? Any objections? Any

20 abstentions?

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. And Low ambient.

22 Question marks?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the question mark

2 was what is your ask here? So, the Excel sheet had

3 explanations, but what is your ask. That they just be

4 sealed for nothing?

5 MR. THARP: That low ambient cooling dampers

6 be not tested. The ask is that low ambient cooling

7 dampers not be tested.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, what we've done for

9 all the rest of the damper-type things is just seal

10 them for testing. Period.

11 MR. THARP: Well, these are dampers that it

12 intentionally takes some discharged air from the

13 condenser and re-circulate it.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you need them?

15 MR. THARP: So we need them for that. It's

16 a special application. Again, it's very low --

17 relatively low volume of use (inaudible).

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so there's an equivalent

19 without that?

20 MR. THARP: I think it was -- yes.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Always? Okay. To just

22 exclude from the test?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Rusty, is this something

2 that can easily be removed?

3 MR. THARP: That is my understanding.

4 MR. WHITWELL: So that could be another

5 option.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just remove for testing?

7 Okay.

8 MR. THARP: Yeah, remove for testing or test

9 without.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Just say remove for

11 testing. We would have to issue some type of

12 guidance. Is that okay?

13 MR. THARP: Yeah.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other comments or

15 questions no the three on the page? Any objections?

16 Any abstentions?

17 MR. SACHS: Again, some wordsmithing on

18 dehumidification components, because after all the

19 evaporator is a dehumidification component. I don't

20 think we want to test without the evaporator.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, the description we

22 tried to limit the larger.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other concerns?

2 MR. SACHS: But there are also

3 dehumidification systems, I believe, that don't use

4 either liquid or solid (inaudible).

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: They wouldn't fall into this

6 category, based on this description.

7 MR. FLY: In HVAC, we had the high gas

8 reheat coils as a separate item. And this was just

9 covering (inaudible). I don't know if that helps any

10 or not, and I don't know what we're doing here,

11 because I haven't read ahead.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the last slide.

13 This is it for VRFs.

14 MR. FLY: The only other thing is it says

15 the lamps -- on UV lights it says lamps will be turned

16 off. I thought on HVAC we just said that they wouldn't

17 be selected with UV lamps.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

19 MR. FLY: Okay, was it just turned off?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's exactly the same

21 language. Yeah.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Do we need to change
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1 anything?

2 All right. Let's go to the next slide.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Did we vote on that one?

4 MR. EISNER: We had voted on it.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it. So, we're done.

6 Evaporatively cooled, water cooled and water source is

7 up for the morning. There was a couple of terms that

8 still we hadn't received definitions on or

9 explanations, in terms of what you guys were talking

10 about for those. So, if I have a chance, maybe I'll

11 pull those up and ask you if you can consider them

12 tonight, if we're going to talk about them in the

13 morning. We'll grab Marshall's things for the

14 morning.

15 And then this is just across the board. In

16 order to qualify for any of these exceptions for

17 guidance, you must have an identical model available

18 for test, without that option. This is just a

19 fundamental across the board.

20 MR. THARP: Actually, going back one, I

21 think on commercial HVAC there was one option that

22 wasn't discussed and that was air blenders. Mixers.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: The mixers and the return air

2 plenum are in the return air portion of the

3 (inaudible).

4 MR. THARP: Are you satisfied where we're

5 at, Mark?

6 MR. FLY: I mean, I threw them in there

7 because a company I used to work at did that. So, I

8 don't do it today, but they are used, especially in

9 testing equipment, which some of it's going to fall

10 under these regulations. So, I would like to see them

11 in the list. But I think they're -- you know, they're

12 similar -- I mean, you're not going to have them

13 without an economizer.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then that's not going to be

15 tested.

16 MR. FLY: And that's not going to be tested,

17 so there's no reason to test the blender. I mean, you

18 can't really -- there's no reason to put them in if

19 you don't have an economizer. So, it seems like it'd

20 be a simple decision.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or it's unnecessary because

22 we're not going to test one with an economizer.
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1 MR. FLY: Or we can call it part of the

2 economizer.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why do we even need to

4 separate them out?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: What I would say is, because

6 like in our model numbering scheme and our pricing

7 scheme, if you are not going to order it with an

8 economizer -- it's tied to an economizer.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so we're not even

10 going to --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's mutually -- I mean, you

12 can't get it.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't think they need

14 to be called out separately.

15 MR. FLY: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's just one of those

17 things that comes with it. Okay.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Should we go back to Lennox

19 had an objection?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think that's it for

22 today. We made good headway. Thank you guys all.
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1 There's a couple homework items for us and you guys.

2 We did -- Jeremiah already sent out the motor language

3 and we've gotten some additional requests for time.

4 So, consider it -- I think you understand the premise

5 of what we were trying to do. There's some nuances

6 that probably need to be worked out, language, look

7 into it. Instead of dealing with it tomorrow, we'll

8 deal with it at the next set of meetings.

9 And I'm not sure exactly what we're going to

10 talk about tomorrow. We'll figure it out tonight.

11 (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., the

12 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking

13 Federal Advisory Committee was

14 concluded.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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0.09 191:14

00 69:8

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08 190:7,19 191:8

195:13 200:5,21

202:10 209:22

210:11

1

1 33:1,2 118:3,13

122:6,11

136:17,18

137:1,6 139:20

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1,000 220:15

1,500 227:4

10 18:3 41:10

117:20 218:7

10.5 218:5

10:03 1:10

100 120:16

1000 1:13

10-ton 130:19

11 122:10,11

11:30 76:15

115 98:3

117 162:19 251:1

125 213:16

13 182:14

14 124:2

140 18:4

14-inch 124:6

150 27:12

16 124:3 203:7,9

17 1:9

2

2 118:3,13 136:18

137:1,6 179:12

180:6,9 183:10

2,000 250:16,22

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20 117:20 148:5

200 217:16

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3

3 119:13,15,18,20

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30 76:18

300 110:22

3030 201:6

31 124:3

31.25 218:18

31st 79:1,10,14

197:12

343-60 192:2

360 191:20

3-phase 130:18

4

4 210:14

40 63:7

429 41:11

48 31:1 32:3

5

5 210:16

5,000 18:5

5:00 262:11

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55 49:18

6

6 114:20 191:15

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234:22

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64 53:5

65 68:7

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70 99:17 158:16

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8

8 188:20 237:14

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80-degree 160:3

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a.m 1:10

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52:14,15 60:19

65:7,10 67:16,17

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157:21

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29:3 44:19 86:14
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133:12 159:7

184:5 211:17

237:10

abstention 44:22

46:1,13 47:10

118:19

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18:13 20:1 33:6

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45:1,3,5 46:15

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157:4

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122:22

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53:18

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211:22

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109:11 133:17

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244:17 250:8

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114:3 119:7

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135:6 138:4,8

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175:16 179:15

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226:5 231:18

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114:15,18

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262:13

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152:19 158:1

247:5

AEDMs 156:4

158:21

aesthetic 124:11

affect 9:5 10:3

11:4 13:12,17
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affected 207:22

affecting 13:18

106:1

affiliation 6:8

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156:8 160:4

ago 157:9 173:9

211:21

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227:12

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157:8 172:7

200:18 251:7

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241:2

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213:9 214:16

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96:22 97:1,2,3

115:4 117:1

118:21,22

119:1,2,3,6

121:1,4 125:1,3

127:2,15

141:8,15,17

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155:5

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160:2,4 161:21

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193:11 195:2

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206:20

213:12,13 227:4

237:13 238:14

239:16,18 242:2

243:17,19

253:20 254:17

256:12 259:22

260:1,2

Air-cooled 127:1

airflow 87:16 90:4

146:14

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121:17

air-moving 110:21

121:12 127:7

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158:18

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183:20

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264:3 265:3

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and/or 102:11

156:4 159:11

162:1 165:5

174:10

angle 191:13

anomaly 201:13
Capital Reporting Company

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answer 10:11

29:21 53:4 57:6

58:2,3 118:10

158:3 182:11

answer's 192:7

anticipating 91:7

anti-sweat 38:18

39:21 45:11

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76:21 86:13

87:21 91:20

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184:6 208:6

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94:2,7,11,14

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102:3,6,19

103:1,4,6,8,12

104:18,22

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111:7

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134:3,5,20

135:3,8,17

136:1,4,7 137:22

138:3,20

140:10,16,20
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143:12,17,20

147:17 148:2,11

149:10,12,20

150:2,6,12,17,21

151:2,5,9,19

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21

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183:14,21

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188:2 192:7,22

193:16 194:20

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198:7,19

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202:5,9,18

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210:4 211:15

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256:1,8,14,18,21

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119:2 159:9

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176:15,17 182:2

184:22

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213:11 214:4

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attached 93:22

95:3

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213:11

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84:9,11,12,14,18

154:10

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106:22 184:22

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108:16 116:13

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B117 162:8,22

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backend 225:9

background 156:5

bad 74:17 107:5

baked 17:17

161:22

Ballo 2:11 75:8

249:21
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band 213:16

bank 225:6

Bard 232:21 234:5

Barhydt 2:6 4:6

5:11,14,21 6:9

7:11 8:6,20

10:7,10,20 13:6

18:15 19:14

20:3,10,15,18

29:6,11 30:1

33:11 34:16

38:16 39:7 40:14

45:6 54:9 78:14

79:2 81:1,4

84:22 86:16

87:4,13 88:7,22

89:11,21

90:3,11,20

91:4,13 92:14

95:14 96:6,9,13

97:1,8,16 98:19

99:22 102:10

104:8 105:8,10

106:8 107:17

108:3 109:20

110:14 111:5

115:2,9 116:1

118:21 124:2,10

126:22 129:6

152:2,7 154:9

159:8

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163:22 165:8,19

166:6,15 167:5

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180:1 181:22

184:8,21

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213:10 214:3,17

215:7 245:8

246:13,16

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184:21

base 102:18 103:2

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216:8,17 218:6

220:8,15,17,20

221:17,18

222:11 223:18

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14:1 15:12

17:1,16 18:15,16

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23:10,15 24:8

25:9

26:1,3,12,19

27:4 29:15,16

30:3 31:18 33:19

34:4,21 35:7,13

36:5,8,16

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38:6,8,11 42:18

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53:13 55:12 58:4

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82:1,3 84:5

85:8,20 86:21

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100:5,14,17,21

101:4,9 102:1,4

104:20 105:1

106:13 135:20

136:3,5

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189:1 202:6

206:12

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42:10

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235:7

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102:14 105:11

106:6 136:21

139:8 146:3

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38:20 115:5,13

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belt 220:20 223:2

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better 19:7 23:6

24:2,3,13 34:18

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80:16 82:17 84:2

97:21 98:11

109:4 118:6

138:1 139:11,13

145:17 176:1

191:5 200:22

beyond 156:9

bigger 32:17 191:4

217:2

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111:18 125:9

131:3 138:5

252:5

blade 170:10

171:5

blah 35:11

blame 82:22 164:2

blender 260:17

blenders 259:22

block 249:5

blocking 87:15

blower 181:20

182:2

blowers 215:7

blown 193:4

BNSA 241:11

board 65:11

211:17 240:1
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259:15,19

Bob 6:19 9:6

111:17 124:15

134:11 140:22

142:16

152:15,17

168:20 178:7

183:10 188:10

197:22 242:16

Bob's 148:15

168:2

body 20:21

boiler 12:18

boilers 10:21,22

bonded 162:2

bookmark 47:11

Bosenberg 3:14

8:10

bother 88:11

box 49:11

brackets 119:1

186:14

break 76:13,21

212:10

225:14,16,19

251:20

BRF 220:21

241:22

brief 76:16 225:21

252:2

bring 4:3 48:1

131:10,11,12

134:12 135:16

183:22 226:15

239:9,11

bringing 30:9

243:16

broad 19:16 82:8

broadly 250:9

brought 134:22

Bruce 69:7

BTU 109:15

110:22 130:18

BTUH 241:22

BTUs 149:7 227:4

build 180:1 234:12

building 1:14

105:2 159:12

177:12

185:3,5,10,12,13

213:13

buildings 232:16

246:9

built 62:2 65:5

72:7 136:18

235:11

bulb 31:18

40:12,13 41:2

53:6

bullet 29:2 79:16

80:20 84:6 85:8

86:3,6,10 209:8

bullets 80:17

burden 68:1 150:9

247:1

burn 104:17

181:11

burners 13:21

business 67:4

123:7

butt 242:1

button 43:3 92:1

buttons 43:14

buy 69:15 152:3

153:1

buy-in 200:22

bypass 43:17

125:5,6 212:16

213:3

C

cabinet 20:21 25:4

53:19

cabinets 65:20

calculate 60:12

calculating 221:15

calculation 15:12

21:6 61:15 83:21

calculations 23:5

62:3

Canada 21:13

22:4

cans 13:22

capabilities

156:15

capability 64:4

141:13 187:4

capacitor 165:20

166:1

capacitors 165:19

228:12 235:19

236:6

capacity 13:17

14:7,9 110:21

113:3 122:7

127:8 136:19

146:14 149:5,7,8

184:12 190:10

212:22

226:19,21

capacity-wise

234:9

Capital 1:21

capture 61:11

captured 102:13

care 81:21 130:5

146:1 201:18,19

254:3

carefully 40:12

Carrier 2:14 3:21

6:19 9:6 111:17

124:16 141:1

carry 22:3

cascade 70:18

case 31:21

48:12,14,17

51:17,18,19

54:12,13,15,19

61:22 62:5 63:11

64:15 66:5 67:13

69:11 82:13 84:2

86:18 87:6,7

89:13

92:16,19,21

93:11,21

96:12,14 97:2

102:12 114:6

117:2,10

141:1,14 145:2

147:14 155:17

168:21 181:2

183:8 199:4

200:19

204:14,20

205:11,15 206:4

213:6 251:5

cases 28:3,11 41:7

48:14

51:2,8,9,11,15,2

0 54:4,9,22

55:20 62:9

63:1,9,19 65:1

92:4,13,14,15,17

93:10,22 97:8

101:11 102:1

113:2

141:4,10,19

203:15
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catalog 178:19

188:7 203:2

209:10,12 227:9

catch 123:11

189:13

catches 123:9

catching 123:8

categories 250:9

category 55:9

78:10 178:15

180:5 230:18

258:6

caught 91:22

189:7

cause 1:7

109:11,18

caveat 187:13

CCD 83:21 84:2

ceiling 243:13

central 49:1 82:12

certain 31:4 39:17

53:22 56:19 63:1

70:11,12 74:5

195:4 198:17

201:15 226:10

245:15 250:10

certainly 13:15

47:9 147:11

183:13 225:7,11

CERTIFICATE

263:1 264:1

265:1

certification 60:3

150:9 170:5

196:5 247:1

certifications 56:2

certified 146:20

certify 150:13

157:1 169:15

197:11 224:11

263:5 264:3

265:3

certifying 224:2

cetera 245:2

CFM 220:15

CFR 41:11 132:11

218:16,17

chamber 31:17

chance 47:20

222:4 237:6

259:10

chances 31:8

change 16:18,20

29:1 35:4 38:13

44:11 55:8 81:5

84:21 85:21

105:11 112:11

120:19

137:17,18 139:1

141:7,19 170:18

192:2,12

207:8,21

208:1,11 210:11

258:22

changed 12:20

36:13 44:15

79:17 128:19

149:22 173:11

208:5,8 209:8

changes 22:2

133:5 141:12

192:8 236:14

changing 139:15

174:1 195:8

199:14,17

206:19 207:13

characteristic 54:3

characteristics 9:5

10:2 11:4

13:12,16 15:18

18:20

characterized

77:10

Charles 2:17 3:22

Charlie 19:20

21:11 23:13,22

24:12 25:10 27:6

28:8 29:19

32:1,6 33:14

34:5 39:4 43:11

44:8 55:2 74:2

80:19 81:6

82:3,5 87:22

88:1 90:16 99:9

101:11 102:17

104:3

105:9,12,13

250:19,20 251:7

check 46:6 146:9

183:10

chemicals 250:6

chime 234:4

choices 64:16

choose 193:12

chooses 248:16,18

chosen 252:21

chunks 137:10

circuit 91:14

212:22

circuited 68:20

circuiting 141:2

circuits 91:12,14

circulate 185:12

circumstance

248:18

claim 169:17

171:9 240:10

claimed 240:11

clarification 13:15

15:21 17:13

28:21 35:8 36:11

39:9 89:17 98:1

133:13 165:2

167:16 169:8

174:3 226:11

231:18 237:15

245:21

clarifications

47:21,22

clarified 10:4 92:9

clarifies 97:17

clarify 21:21 25:11

62:22 90:17

97:18 132:18

172:3 192:11

195:10 237:12

clarifying 91:2

131:6 133:22

226:21 236:15

class 110:16

111:20

112:14,22

117:7,11 118:11

127:3 130:7,14

131:14

132:4,15,16,18,2

0,21

133:1,3,4,15

146:2 158:8

179:10 180:5

181:8 240:11

245:14

classes 113:1

128:4 130:11

133:18 134:2

183:8

classroom 232:9

233:12

classrooms 231:9

clause 10:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-17-2013

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clean 111:18

191:13 195:3

Cleanable 120:13

cleaned 120:10,11

123:2,10

clear 40:17 74:1

128:16 203:6

clearer 131:3

clearly 252:5

CLEMENT

253:3,9

Clements 2:22

6:22 149:18

245:20 246:4

close 136:22

163:19 202:12

207:4 214:5

246:2 247:15

closed 47:14 54:4

185:1 186:3

closely 178:13

closer 142:21

230:4,12

closing 74:21

clue 66:5 190:17

coal 116:4 117:22

142:9 161:7,10

coarse 123:1

coast 233:9 250:3

coat 163:13

coated 90:10,11

115:9 116:4

117:5 118:13

142:9,22 143:5

151:3,5

161:7,9,17

162:6,14,15,16

164:18 228:12

229:16 233:8,10

234:16,19

240:13 241:10

244:3,18,19

245:12 246:14

247:8 248:13,19

249:1,11

250:1,9,13

252:11,13,20

coating 115:12

117:21 118:7

161:4 162:1,2

163:8 250:15

coatings 90:11

249:5

coats 163:15

coefficient 82:11

cognizant 225:6

coil 87:16 90:17

109:5 115:4,9,10

118:7,16 136:8

142:10,20

143:5,7,8

144:4,13 145:1

147:22 148:10

149:8,11,14

153:16,17

161:1,2,18

162:2,3,15

164:10,18 166:8

176:22 177:6,7,8

178:2,4 179:1,19

180:9 181:12

182:2 184:9

185:5,12 190:22

191:3 212:20,21

213:1 214:19,20

227:18 233:8,10

234:17 241:4

244:18

249:1,5,11

coils

90:10,11,12,14

110:19,20

115:3,6,9,13

116:11,12

117:5,16 118:13

127:6,7 136:9

142:22 144:18

145:17

147:9,10,12,14

151:4,6 152:20

158:17 161:1

162:5 165:9

190:21 228:12

229:16 234:19

240:19 244:3,19

245:12 246:14

247:8 248:14,20

250:2,5,9,13

252:11,13,20

258:8

cold 74:18,20

101:15 154:12

collaboration 72:1

Collin 3:8 7:17

23:9 36:17

column 187:8

combination 137:5

242:21 243:1

combine 34:19

combined 130:12

comes 66:18 67:14

107:5 139:19

144:17 147:19

148:17 175:10

193:6 208:14

261:17

comfortable 16:6

44:19 80:5

114:22 163:22

coming 55:17 60:2

91:8 125:2 134:6

158:16 160:4

173:17 181:15

192:21 200:15

command 152:18

comment 15:15

16:2 25:20 48:8

69:7 76:6 77:15

78:4,7 95:22

105:6 108:21

118:17 128:19

164:6

171:15,17,21

177:4 181:10

202:21 230:15

233:1 249:7

251:16

comments 9:11

11:6 13:13 18:13

19:1 21:10

33:5,18 39:3

74:3 85:7

87:1,10,20

89:5,18 90:15

93:2 95:19 96:20

97:5 98:16 99:3

102:7 111:1

115:7,15

124:7,14 127:9

131:13 133:7

136:11 138:11

144:12 165:6,17

166:3,12

167:2,14 173:11

176:11 177:2

179:20 183:1

184:18 185:20

213:7 215:3

216:3 227:21

230:11 235:3,19

236:6,9,19

237:7,16,19

238:12 240:8

241:16 243:7

244:6 250:12

254:12 255:2

257:14

commerce 156:22
Capital Reporting Company

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commercial

8:21,22 10:21,22

13:7 16:12 18:16

38:17 116:18

127:1,14 132:21

133:3 134:15

191:2,5 226:19

228:19

230:13,19

232:16 238:2

244:10,21

245:2,22

246:6,8,12

255:11,14

259:21

committed 31:19

committee 1:5

187:2 192:16

262:13

committing 24:22

25:7

common 51:5

94:15,17 127:8

commonly 251:10

communication

72:2 233:6

companies 103:17

company 1:21

6:18 122:20

178:14 260:7

comparable

110:18,19,20

137:13 139:3,17

148:17

153:19,21

176:5,9 240:13

comparably 127:5

153:19

compare 142:8,13

157:15

compared 22:18

compensate

103:21 105:19

competing 231:15

complete 78:16

264:8 265:8

completely 22:1

75:22 133:20

192:12

complex 225:7

compliance 190:14

complicated 61:18

223:9

component 168:16

242:3 257:19

components 97:13

113:12 127:18

140:15

166:15,22

236:20 257:18

compressor 98:20

102:5 103:20

104:12,15,16,17

109:6,7,8,12,13

173:15

174:5,7,9,11,19,

20 175:17

compressors

110:19 114:9,17

127:6 212:19

computer 4:7

12:9,11 238:14

239:18 240:12

241:10

computer's 30:4

conceivably 92:3

conceived 231:6

concept 219:12

221:8 238:8

conception 231:5

concepts 34:20

130:13 238:19

concern 14:16

26:9 44:11 45:7

55:16 62:20

193:20,21

concerned 27:10

124:16 206:17

208:10,16

concerns 4:22

10:17 31:7 44:16

90:9 95:11 97:15

154:17 159:18

165:6 183:1

186:9 213:20

214:14 239:19

243:5 258:1

concluded 262:14

condensate 29:6

30:16 32:8,13

33:10,11 35:3

45:12 56:9,19

61:9 74:9,10

214:21

condensation

53:18 54:7 74:19

condenser

87:13,16 115:3

117:22 136:8

168:11,12,13,15

169:1 170:10

171:5 227:17

237:1 238:22

241:4 242:2

256:13

condensers 87:14

condensing 89:2

91:16 92:3

103:16 104:11

110:19 127:6

condition 50:11

70:15 85:15

104:15 144:11

158:7,10

176:6,10

222:7,18

conditioner 82:12

115:4 127:15

conditioners 4:8

142:2

conditioning

2:10,13,15 6:21

41:9 54:16 67:9

127:2 239:19

conditions 31:12

39:18,20 40:20

41:5 42:11,16

44:6 50:16,19

52:19

53:5,8,15,16,20

54:1,22 56:19

57:16 58:12

59:17 61:3,4

63:13,14,17

65:8,16

67:3,6,11,13,15,

19 68:9,12,17

71:1,2,9

72:19,20 75:5

77:9 98:21

104:9,16

105:1,15 106:2

108:8 165:10

201:16 202:13

238:14

configuration

60:17

configurations

78:10

confirmed 162:7

conflict 21:13,15

confuse 42:5

confused 31:8 99:6

127:12 128:20
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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-17-2013

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131:5 195:16

confusing 130:9

connected

50:15,16 60:9

98:10,14 167:6

connection 165:21

167:7

conscious 158:1

consensus 45:18

200:15

consequence

174:13

consequently

13:18

conservative 22:13

23:3 83:22

conservatively

22:14,21

26:12,16

consider 5:9 40:2

99:14 157:9,13

245:22 246:5

259:11 262:4

consideration

33:17

considered 34:9

181:3,7,14

226:10

considering 37:21

consistency 113:10

consistent 16:17

25:12 36:20

127:20

consistently

119:19

constrained 232:5

constraint 155:18

231:21,22

constraints 122:14

constructed 74:15

construction 54:4

74:14 137:15

142:19 232:9

233:11

consulting 251:11

consumed 62:6

consumer 133:4

148:3

consumption

18:21 21:2 22:12

26:6 73:22 89:13

249:4

consumptive 44:3

contact 195:21

contain 97:8

137:14

containing 91:15

contaminants 97:2

content 166:16

context 128:10

continue 219:9

252:4

Continued 3:1,2

continuing 26:8

continuous 92:16

115:12 161:4

control 22:8 41:3

42:14 43:16 44:5

48:18 50:2

51:8,10,14

52:14,21 54:18

57:4,20 58:14

59:4 60:8,15

65:22 66:6

67:8,16

69:11,12,14

72:7,9,14

73:12,13,16 76:1

77:5,7 81:2 99:1

100:1,10,15

101:16 102:2

142:10 144:3

157:11 174:21

204:8

controlled 51:21

52:4 57:17,19

61:5

controller 38:22

39:5,14,15,17,19

40:3,4,11 42:20

50:12,15,17

51:2,19 52:11

56:21

57:3,7,12,15,21

58:10 59:2,15

60:4,6,16

61:8,16,18,22

62:2,14,17,20

64:11,16 65:17

67:14 68:16

70:6,8

71:10,11,12 72:3

75:17,18,19

77:8,13 79:19

84:10,15

85:10,13,14,16,1

8 86:1 99:13

controllers 40:10

43:12 48:17

55:21 56:18 58:8

62:13,17

64:20,21 65:2

70:18 75:15

controller's 57:10

60:21 83:13

controlling 48:15

controls 51:7 52:4

57:11 69:9 70:12

73:22

controversial

212:15

conversation

23:12 82:10

conversations 23:7

convey 130:16

convinced 226:3

cool 31:14 155:5

coolant 91:11,13

cooled 91:15 92:2

135:5 239:4

259:6

cooling 110:21

113:2,3,16

114:10 127:8

128:10,11,15

149:5,6,8

154:10,12 155:9

158:17 178:6

184:10,12

212:17

226:18,21 233:5

238:20 242:3

256:5,6

cooper 227:17

copper 115:2,5

136:8,9 137:14

139:2,11,16

141:5,7,14

142:2,12

143:5,7,21

144:4,13,18

145:2 146:17

147:10,12,22

148:15

151:4,6,13,18

152:4 161:1

241:10

copy 35:9 173:22

222:1

copy/paste 91:9

copying 254:19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-17-2013

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core 246:7

Corey 7:16

corner 92:16

Corporation 3:15

correct 28:19

37:14 46:16

64:2,14 66:21

72:3 73:1 80:4

91:3 94:6,7

100:13 104:16

129:10 130:20

134:3,5 160:2,4

167:18,19

174:17 180:11

183:2 195:1

231:21 236:16

239:5 245:11,12

248:11 264:7

265:8

corrected 147:12

correction 165:19

175:15 180:20

194:5 228:12

235:18 236:6

correctly 14:1

28:13 70:2 97:19

179:16 219:20

corrosion 115:13

116:5 161:5

162:7,12

corrosive

161:19,21

240:15

cost 141:20 178:20

179:2 248:12,19

Counsel 3:4

count 141:2,7

countdown 76:17

counted 97:14

179:17

counterpart 226:4

couple 38:2 135:4

162:18 173:9

196:15 251:22

259:7 262:1

course 140:13

224:5

Court 263:1,3,16

264:3,6 265:4,6

cover 18:7 19:12

43:6 129:3

217:15 224:18

248:13,17

covered 19:13

110:15 111:19

115:11 127:3

128:21,22 161:3

239:15 247:13

covering 128:14

162:3 166:8

258:9

covers

89:1,4,11,12

232:14,17

CPR 104:21 109:4

crack 226:7

239:22

cracks 227:1 242:5

crankcase 98:19

99:8 101:15

103:10

107:20,21

CRE 18:15 19:10

20:9,18 41:6

91:3,4 92:7 99:6

103:6 116:9,10

create 102:18

103:2 146:2

creative 225:12

credit 44:7

critical 144:11

criticism 223:18

CSA 2:19

CSI 251:8

curious 36:21

current 92:18

102:13 157:4

183:6 192:8

217:17

currently 80:21

86:12 89:15

192:9

curtains 89:11,12

curtains/covers

89:10

curves 109:14

224:16

custom 120:7

customer 20:19

27:1 32:11 54:21

74:11 76:2

122:18

145:16,18 147:8

customer-driven

122:3

customers 20:20

26:14 55:20 69:8

86:16 104:1

153:11 205:2

225:13

customs 235:11

cycle 59:9,19

Cymbalsky 2:4

7:13 33:7 43:4

46:14,17 47:1,12

48:6 84:20

85:1,3 91:9

126:16 149:21

154:21 161:16

182:21 213:22

228:1,16 244:14

cynic 40:9

D

D.C 1:16 8:13

Daikin 3:11 7:19

damage 106:6

166:9

damn 158:3

dampeners 253:20

damper 185:1

186:2 214:4,5,6

dampers 184:22

185:7 186:1,2,7

214:4,12

256:5,7,11

damper-type

256:9

Dane 2:21 6:15

50:1,6,18

65:4,18 66:9

69:16,22 70:9,20

danger 76:5

dash 79:17

data 30:11 37:20

146:8,11 156:9

191:10 218:14

224:15

date 4:4 138:22

139:10 192:18

264:13 265:14

dated 182:13

Dave 3:5 8:4 227:3

230:17 231:19

day 92:6 135:8,11

148:17 200:8

204:1 250:6

days 37:12 51:6
Capital Reporting Company

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deadline 79:1

deal 5:11 28:4

64:20 77:14

79:14 104:7

105:18 171:6

245:13 262:8

dealing 38:16

216:14 245:5

262:7

dealt 254:10

debris 166:9

December

79:1,10,13

197:12

decent 123:8

decibels 213:15

decide 59:16 72:9

76:13 118:14

190:14

decided 71:13

decides 148:5

decision 72:22

122:9 208:21

229:11 235:7

260:20

decision-making

93:6

decline 210:6

decorative

124:9,10,13

125:8,11,19

126:10

deduct 179:11,12

180:9

deduction 180:6

deeper 28:9

default 53:2 82:13

83:4,13 190:13

194:4,5,8 199:12

206:22 208:15

209:21 254:5

defer 129:1

define 39:5,8

52:16,19,21

53:1,17 55:6

122:6 132:3

133:19 162:14

200:4

defined 53:6

77:3,4 132:5,6

159:12

defining 55:7

definite 219:5,8

definitely 52:21

170:19 219:4

249:3

definition 8:21

10:5,7,20

11:10,16 12:21

13:7 15:3 17:11

18:15

19:10,15,16

110:12

112:17,20

126:22 130:2

144:10 151:1

153:17

161:7,9,11,17

183:2 226:17

240:3

242:17,21,22

definitions 20:11

74:5 131:22

239:19 259:8

deflection 125:3

defrost 29:8 33:12

51:13

Degitz 3:7 7:15

degradation 82:11

118:2

degrade 155:21

degree 53:6

degrees 38:2

99:15,18

dehumidification

158:15

166:15,22

236:20

257:18,19 258:3

deice 167:6

delete 18:21

deliver 176:16

215:9 224:6

delivered 127:19

182:18 212:17

delta 74:17 121:16

deluxe 147:15

Department

1:2,12 2:4,5,6

14:17 24:18

75:11 138:13,17

151:20 164:15

167:11 173:8

191:22

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except 30:3 148:14
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212:20 239:16

fluid 91:15

Fly 3:3 7:20

129:2,5,7,11

132:2,8,13

143:3,16 153:13

158:5,12 159:21

160:13

189:12,19

190:16 192:16

258:7,14,19

260:6,16

261:1,15

flying 166:9

focus 33:3

focusing 43:19

44:10

fog 74:22 75:4

76:2

fogged 76:1

fogging 73:21

foil 146:17,18

folks 82:3

Folsom 1:21

263:3,16

fond 130:8

Food 46:4

footage 142:20

footnote 146:9
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force 103:19 208:7

foregoing 263:4

foregoing/

attached 264:7

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forget 6:4 134:16

135:18 136:6

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forming 56:10

formula 55:5

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forth 4:20

forum 25:14

forward 46:17,18

48:2 160:11

209:3

fraction 41:4

82:14 116:22

117:5 137:7

178:10 233:16

fractional 217:16

238:4

Frank 2:15 3:12

8:3 18:1 33:21

34:22 41:18 56:6

144:6

146:3,16,21

172:5 180:10

182:10 209:7

free 22:14

freedom 138:19

FREEMAN 5:22

freezing 213:1

frequency 167:8

213:16 223:7

frequent 51:4

frequently 75:11

fresh 95:16 186:1

243:17,19

253:20

fridge 76:7

full 30:19 31:9

42:12 193:4

fully 66:19 77:19

89:15 185:7

186:7

function 33:15

108:6 155:6

functional 9:4

10:1 11:4 13:11

18:20 66:20

140:1

functionality 96:9

127:18

functionally 68:16

fundamental

140:21 157:7

259:19

furnace 113:12

114:17 127:14

129:14,15

181:20

furnaces 8:22 9:1

10:8 113:22

114:2

future 207:14

G

G85 162:20,22

165:4 251:1

gallons 15:9

16:14,19 17:9

18:3,4,5

game 41:22

games 75:6

gamut 232:17

gap 92:15

garage 101:13

gas 2:16 6:17 9:3

11:2 13:10

110:18 111:3,5,7

113:11,13,18,19,

22

114:2,3,4,9,12,1

6,17 127:5,17,19

128:5,9

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5,22 165:12

179:11,17

181:4,7,16 183:8

184:8,15 212:16

213:3 258:7

gas-fired

111:6,8,12,14

gate 156:21

general 5:6 58:22

98:4 176:3 212:2

216:6 218:3

219:3,8 220:20

222:13 223:3

231:10 232:11

generalist 45:10

generalized 58:19

generally 212:6

223:10 244:17

general-purpose

97:6,11,14 98:14

generate 53:21

56:19

generated 30:16

gets 54:6 55:14

63:4 72:15 84:19

123:2 138:21

215:4 225:7

getting 53:14 91:8

100:6 142:17

158:22 195:16

gist 84:19

given 10:22 13:8

93:8 110:15

111:19 127:3

128:21 180:20

198:20 201:14

215:13 240:11

gives 15:3 18:6

31:4 178:11

190:12

giving 21:12

195:5,6 227:22

glass 66:17

74:17,18

goal 194:6

199:20,21 200:1

202:12 212:1

God 151:7

going-in 148:22

gone 9:20 44:4

193:1 197:1

201:16

Goodman 2:8 5:5

7:8 91:2 114:1

117:18 122:13

123:14 129:21

162:18 175:15

Google 114:16

gotten 151:5

180:22 262:3

grab 259:13

grain 65:7

gray 123:18,19,20

great 105:18

123:12,15,16,17,

18 133:11

176:13

greater 15:9 17:8

119:1 168:14
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greedy 253:13

grill 126:16

grille 90:3

124:10,11,18,19

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grilles 90:4,7

124:9,13

125:8,12,15

126:2,7

group 8:19 19:16

21:14 34:9 46:2

47:22 92:7

102:20 118:14

149:1 151:19

153:15 174:15

179:10 191:8

210:11 215:22

222:5 252:19

grouped 247:4

grouping 219:16

groups 23:5

growth 214:19

Guam 54:16

guards 166:6,10

228:13 236:9

251:17 253:19

guess 14:21 20:4

26:4 50:13 59:17

77:20 85:9 93:6

99:5 106:20

117:22 127:11

129:21 133:13

140:8 146:22

154:22 163:7

169:9 202:22

212:14 219:18

221:5,7 231:4

242:19 245:2,20

248:6 250:5

guidance 21:2

24:20 25:21

26:22 55:22

78:5,6 80:1

83:17 86:18

87:17 89:3,16

90:6 91:19 95:17

97:3,11 102:14

119:6 124:4,12

154:13 159:14

161:5 164:4,5

165:13,22

166:10,20

167:10 168:7,17

176:19 184:14

185:6,16 186:6

187:21 188:2

192:10 193:2

194:10 195:4,6

196:4 212:7

213:2,17 214:10

215:1 257:12

259:17

guilty 249:15

gut 190:7

guy 12:18

guys 12:6 23:18

25:22 27:17 33:7

47:20 50:8 51:1

52:1 59:4 115:16

118:14 154:19

183:6 197:7

201:13 225:16

242:12 259:9

261:22 262:1

H

habit 65:19

hail 166:6,9,10

228:12 236:9

Hailmeyer 69:8

half 17:16 249:5

half-baked 17:14

hand 76:19 190:2

handed 30:4

handle 4:19 76:14

173:18 193:3

handled 83:15

181:21 182:3

handling 34:6

handout 182:12,21

hands 233:22

hang 5:19 110:6

happen 79:3

99:10,12,21

142:16

happened 4:4

happens 64:18

220:19 246:1

happy 24:5

153:4,22 154:1

238:10 253:7

hard 25:14 157:19

201:10 240:12

harder 104:14

hard-to-start

109:17

hardwired 65:20

69:2

harmful 14:22

harmonizes 22:1

harsh 90:12 250:6

Harvey 3:4 6:16

11:9 13:14 14:12

15:14 16:5,22

17:12 18:11

31:14 32:6

40:8,14,21 44:18

45:9 47:8 70:4

82:7 83:7

99:4,5,9 111:2

113:9,15 116:21

121:22

127:10,12 133:9

136:20

138:12,20 140:7

156:1 158:5,20

175:14 190:17

191:11 200:7

215:4 231:3

232:3 234:2,21

254:22

Harvey's 61:8

157:15 181:10

213:21 223:1

hash 25:16

haven't 12:7,20

18:9 74:6 137:4

151:5 180:22

189:7 249:10

258:11

having 11:1 13:9

15:19 18:18 19:4

22:21 23:11,12

31:15 61:22 62:3

66:1 110:3,17

127:4 130:14

137:13 138:21

144:3 150:9

220:14 252:5

head 177:14

221:21

headers 23:16,19

24:2,14,15 162:3

heading 75:14

88:3,13,14

heads 58:21

231:12

headway 135:14

261:22

hear 12:3 14:4

19:7 22:6 44:21

80:10 81:6 109:1

138:14 140:8
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48:6 56:7 68:15

173:10

210:10,22 226:9

229:3 249:10

hearing 2:10,15

19:5 32:22 45:18

55:3 65:18 66:2

122:1 220:19

heart 181:10

heat 5:7 13:18

15:5,6,10,15,16,

17 16:15,19 40:3

48:20 53:21 76:8

101:17 111:21

112:21

113:14,18,19

129:3,9 136:21

137:14 138:19

139:2,11

140:13,16,18

141:11,13,16

142:2 149:17

155:5 158:15

160:3 165:8,9

176:14,22

177:4,6,7,21

178:9,16,18

179:4,11,17,19

180:20

181:4,7,20

182:1,16,18

183:8 184:8

237:3

heated 32:20

heater 30:5 33:15

35:6 36:19

45:11,13 49:4

62:4 67:16,17

68:17 71:1 74:7

101:15

heaters 13:7,8

16:12 18:5

29:6,7,21 34:6,7

35:3,9 39:22

48:12,16,17,21

51:13 53:20

54:17,18

55:1,4,6,7,9,14

56:8 57:5 60:12

63:1,2,10,20,21

72:10 75:19,21

82:15 98:19,20

99:8 255:6

heating 35:6

111:14 113:22

114:2,4 127:12

128:9,11 176:20

177:10 178:11

181:12 183:15

heats 182:17

184:10

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help 29:17 55:18

80:10 132:18

138:16 141:14

152:10,12,13,15

159:21 183:13

234:1

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191:16 249:22

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258:9

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264:3 265:3

here's 63:18 82:13

129:12

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he's 12:17

50:18,22 62:10

65:11 83:19

142:17 152:15

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248:11

Hey 23:18

Hi 145:14

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49:18 63:13

158:15 184:11

186:12 193:8,14

203:7 212:18

215:7 237:13

253:20 258:7

High-efficiency

118:21

higher 48:12

67:3,6,13 68:9

103:20,21

104:13 106:4

116:22 117:4

141:17 176:16

177:11 188:7

191:9 202:3

215:9 216:8,9

219:20,21

220:2,6,7,8,10,1

1 224:8,17,19,22

225:1,2

higher-rated

168:14

high-wattage 55:6

62:22

Hill 200:12 253:19

historically 23:20

hit 17:22 147:17

hits 58:5

hitting 92:1

201:18

hmm 205:4

hold 46:2 222:3

holding 74:3 154:5

hole 18:9

home 252:17

253:17

homework 262:1

Hon 2:17 3:22

21:11,17

22:4,6,9,16

25:10 26:2

27:6,9,16,19,21

32:1,14 33:2,14

39:4,10 40:1

43:10,11,20 44:8

55:2 74:2 80:19

81:7 82:5 87:22

88:2,10 90:16,21

99:9,20

100:2,11,13

102:17,22 103:2

104:3

105:9,13,22

250:13 251:4

honestly 212:7

hook 75:18

Hootman 2:20

7:10 113:15,21

114:2,15 125:5

131:16,22

132:5,12,14,17

136:12,13,15

137:1,4,19 138:4

142:6,15

143:13,18

150:10,15,18

151:7,15

152:12,15 154:2

155:20 156:1

162:14

163:10,14,18,20

164:2,19

174:6,17

175:2,5,8,20,22

176:3,8 182:5

186:19
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188:10,14,18

189:1,9,20 190:6

191:22 195:9

196:1 199:14,17

201:4,10 202:17

209:13,17

210:15,20

211:2,4,8,11

221:10 225:17

235:22 241:12

242:8 247:22

248:3,22 251:7

253:18

261:5,11,20

hope 47:9 70:14

164:14 173:10

212:13

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192:2 226:16

hoping 27:14

226:14 238:18

horsepower

168:15 169:20

216:6,9

217:1,2,7,8,13,1

6

218:4,8,9,20,21

219:2,21 220:3,7

221:16,20

224:7,11,12,13,2

0 225:2,3

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hot 182:19

184:8,15

212:16,18 213:3

hotel 123:9 232:17

hour 110:22

126:19 130:18

hours 30:10,22

31:1 32:3 38:1

82:14 162:9

164:22 250:16

251:1,3,9,15

house 50:8

How's 181:21

HRI 191:15

HRV 160:2

HTP 2:7 7:9 15:2

17:18 162:11

164:8

huh 126:18

humidification

96:2,3,6,16

humidity 31:17

38:20 43:16

49:19 51:12

58:14 63:4,7,13

160:5,6

humidity's 54:19

Hunt 2:16 6:17

45:1,2,22

46:8,10 138:9

145:14 152:14

159:20,21

160:8,19 168:1

238:17,18

239:6,10,14

242:1,6 243:9,14

hurry 159:2

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248:15

hurting 61:19

Hussmann 3:15

19:3,7 28:1

77:19 93:4

HVAC 116:18

212:12,14

226:19 228:19

235:9 236:4,16

238:2 244:5,10

245:3,22

246:6,8,12,14

252:13 253:8

255:11,15

258:7,16 259:21

hydronic

176:14,21,22

177:1,6,21

178:2,3,16,20

179:18 180:19

237:3

hypermodel

155:10

I

I&O 196:16

197:17

198:10,21

201:17 202:21

206:8 209:8

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159:20 174:15

183:12 190:8

194:1,7 206:15

218:11 230:16

250:13 251:20

idea 60:1 68:14

83:15,18 116:19

157:10,11

194:21 216:15

217:5 219:10

ideal 45:11 61:8

ideas 132:22

identical 11:3

13:11 14:7 18:19

62:19 108:16

109:21 137:15

138:22

139:4,9,12

140:2,3,12 144:4

148:13,14,18

154:15 155:14

159:16 161:8

165:16 167:1,12

168:18 176:20

178:3 184:16

185:19 213:4,19

214:13 259:17

IEOs 175:22

IER 175:21

ignoring 23:13

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42:19 77:1 112:7

129:1 135:11

147:11 156:10

191:11 226:1

234:21 236:10

242:8 249:15

259:10

illuminate 21:3

26:6

Illuminated 87:4,5

illuminates 24:14

illumination 28:17

I'm 5:13 6:14 9:18

11:13 14:21

15:2,20 16:12,13

17:13 23:11,15

25:9,10 26:21

27:4,9,14 28:18

31:14 32:22

36:20 37:21 40:8

41:5 42:5

45:10,15,17,18

48:19 49:8 50:22

59:18 61:12 62:7

63:18 65:18

66:2,7 70:4,5

71:20 73:9,11

74:4 75:10,16

76:1,5 80:6 86:9

93:16 99:5

100:17,19

109:16 111:10
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114:11,13,16

121:22 123:13

127:11 128:1,19

131:3 142:3,4

146:15,22

147:2,11,12

150:3 154:4,22

155:8 156:12

158:1,2,3,20

160:9 163:4

164:13 171:4,16

172:21 177:16

178:8 179:15

181:22 184:5

186:19 190:2

193:15 195:16

196:14 197:14

198:4 199:6

201:12 202:22

204:9 206:17,21

207:6 210:4

216:4

220:19,21,22

221:5 222:14

229:10 230:2,7

231:17,19

233:21 234:21

236:13 243:1

244:13 249:17

250:7 251:14

262:9

imagine 240:13

immediately

213:14 224:22

impact 102:12

141:6,8 150:5

217:1

impacted 141:12

implemented

192:9 211:22

implementing

208:17

implications

177:11

implicitly 13:20

231:7

implied 47:2

196:13

implies 124:18

imply 193:9

important 83:12

impose 207:10

208:3

impression

93:9,10 116:22

161:12

improving 155:22

inactive 95:18

inaudible 8:18

10:9 28:3,11

95:2,4 122:1

151:8 156:14

163:8 180:2

200:8 207:1

208:18 211:1

219:11 225:3

227:9 239:16

246:10 251:1

256:17 258:4,9

260:3

Inc 2:7,22

inch 139:15

142:19 149:19

inches 122:6

124:3,4 187:8

188:20 191:14

include 11:11

13:17 26:19

32:13 37:11 76:9

113:10,20

150:20 151:3

156:4 161:22

171:3 180:11

included 9:22 10:3

21:5,20 23:8

24:4,16 27:11

28:18 55:10 98:5

136:16

138:13,16

215:15 255:7

includes 30:8

106:21 171:1

including 38:7

48:16 114:12

115:10 161:2

176:15 214:4

215:8

inclusion 37:16

inclusive 92:2

incoming 155:5

incomplete 84:7

inconsistencies

26:13

inconsistent 209:1

incorrect 144:15

increase 178:22

179:2 184:11

247:10,11 249:3

increased 32:19

156:16

increases 165:20

increasing 246:22

indeed 180:5

Independence

1:13

indicate 21:2 26:5

87:17 89:3

indicating 95:17

97:3,11 124:5,12

154:13 159:15

161:6 165:14

166:10,20

168:17 176:19

185:6,17 186:7

213:3,17 214:11

indirect 159:10

individual 19:18

51:9 69:11

individually 92:20

93:13 94:17

indoor 99:7

115:3,9 161:1

167:5,7 169:11

176:15,17 184:9

185:5,12 186:4

190:14 212:21

214:18,20

215:7,8,10

234:13

indoor/outdoor

173:14,19 174:1

induction 223:11

industrial 133:3

250:4 251:5

Industries 3:12

8:3 18:2

industry 73:19

116:18 117:4

122:5 148:21

231:4 232:17

industry's 23:17

200:22 246:17

infer 32:7

inferring 158:20

infiltration 89:13

informal 5:1 9:15

information 4:9

87:6 110:1 147:7

163:12 196:9,19

197:13
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inhibit 214:19

initial 28:1 30:13

144:11 193:17

initially 34:12

initiate 26:21

77:16,21

innovation 82:20

111:11

innovationfriendly 157:20

input 9:2,8,9 11:11

14:10 169:12

inputs 169:19

inserted 20:4

insertion 213:15

inside 74:9 75:2

98:21 102:11

165:10 182:17

insist 187:21

install 243:21

Installation

202:22

installed 41:7

48:21 73:14

103:16 104:11

117:1 187:5,6

203:7 204:13

221:19

installing 51:10

instead 47:10

60:14 81:4 83:13

98:8 119:18

126:9 174:10

190:4 209:22

212:20 220:22

262:7

Institute 2:10,15

3:20 8:9

institutional

232:16

instruction 195:19

207:18 209:9,12

instructions 52:6

58:7 75:12

195:20

197:18,20

206:9,14

insulation 56:13

74:16,17

integral 22:22

25:3

integrate 44:5

integrated 155:3

156:18 167:11

223:9

intend 202:12

intended 25:2 59:8

85:18,22 174:13

248:17

intent 36:3 47:15

59:1 97:21

128:17 131:7

142:4

intention 172:14

intentionally

256:12

interest 75:20

263:11

interesting 158:16

160:10

interim 4:2 187:18

197:15 198:2,3

210:12

interior 228:22

229:6

internal 42:14

91:11,13,14

182:7

International 2:19

3:19 7:7

interpretation

31:6 45:21 56:15

interpretations

15:22

interpreting 248:7

interrupt 101:10

Intertek 3:16 8:14

70:17 114:7

181:9 254:9

introductions 6:3

intuitive 15:11

invest 70:14

invitation 40:10

involve 156:15

involved 93:5,7

113:13 127:18

involvement 22:17

IO 195:1

isn't 50:3 59:2

142:6 158:15

195:17 216:22

ISO-1725 70:11

isolation 214:3,11

issue 13:20 21:1

42:8 46:12 47:14

49:4 57:20

64:5,6,7,8 65:14

72:16 74:20

75:10 76:14

77:12 79:14 80:1

86:18 87:12

90:6,10 91:21

95:13,17 96:22

97:3,6,11 98:18

102:9 103:5

104:4,19 105:5,7

113:5 115:8

117:19 118:20

119:5 124:4,12

126:12 128:2

131:11,13

134:10,12

154:13 159:7,14

160:22 161:5

164:6 165:13,21

166:5,10,14,20

167:10

168:7,10,17

170:13 173:8

176:19

183:6,11,19

184:7,14

185:6,16,22

186:6,11 195:3

196:19 198:15

199:4 200:17

202:6 213:2,9,17

214:2,10,16

215:1,6 224:6

225:22 227:20

229:12 235:18

244:7 245:12,17

251:21 253:19

257:11

issues 4:12,19

19:18 73:21

75:11 82:20

116:4,5 196:18

197:19 200:10

225:5,14 239:17

255:19

issuing 87:17 89:2

it'd 260:19

item 19:13 225:15

258:8

items 34:8 262:1

it'll 26:21 64:17

99:20 188:3

192:3

it's 11:17 12:9
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15:11 21:13

22:13

24:8,11,13,19,20

25:14,20

28:10,14

30:15,18

31:16,22 35:10

36:12 37:5 41:2

42:9,14,15 43:2

44:1,2 47:2,3,4

49:5 50:13,14,16

51:14 52:3,4,7

53:11 54:3

57:16,17 58:20

59:1,4,11

61:4,5,19,20

63:3 70:6

71:12,14,18

73:13,14 74:8,20

75:20 76:2,4

78:3,18 80:9

83:4,6,8,15,16,2

0 84:8,11

85:12,17

86:10,12

88:4,13,14 89:21

91:14 93:21

94:3,4,5

96:4,6,18 100:21

101:2,4 103:15

104:6,18 106:22

107:3,4,7,10

108:7,12

109:10,16,17,19

114:9,18 115:3

117:2,20 118:1,3

119:18 120:6,7,8

121:5,15,16

122:7,17,18

125:16,18

127:20 128:16

129:12,14,22

130:2,9,16,17

131:8 132:5,17

134:20

137:1,3,5,7,8,9

138:5,6,16

139:4,18

140:1,2,12,13,18

141:1,3,15,20

142:13,15,21

143:16

145:2,8,20 146:5

147:20 148:18

149:12,16

151:17 153:21

155:5 157:16

158:14 160:10

163:13,15

164:4,5,22 165:1

168:5,6,21

170:9,10,12

171:8,9,11

172:11 174:6

176:5 177:5

178:17

180:5,7,13

182:4,5,6,13

183:10,14,19

186:19 189:2,4

190:1

194:3,12,13

195:20

196:16,17,18

198:10,13 199:4

200:9,13 201:7

202:10 203:6,18

204:7 205:15,22

206:7

207:3,7,17,19

208:7,8 210:13

212:10 216:21

217:9 219:12

220:2,4,13,16

223:7,8,9,18,20

224:10,12,14

225:7

229:11,12,15

230:17 231:2

232:1,4,10

233:11,12

234:13,17

240:12 242:9

243:1,2,18

244:8,11,15

248:3 249:1,13

253:16 254:10

255:1,2

256:15,16

258:20 260:9,21

261:8,11,16

ITW 3:10 8:12

I've 74:2,3 116:21

181:10 209:19

219:20

J

Jakobs 3:17 7:21

193:7 207:7

Janel 1:21

263:3,16

Jeff 2:12 3:13 6:20

8:18 12:17,19

13:4 15:8

16:9,13 17:7

19:20 23:10 26:3

28:8 29:13,16

33:19 34:4

35:2,7,18

36:15,19 42:18

53:13 55:12 58:4

73:18 81:9 84:5

86:21 89:6 98:7

100:5 104:20

106:13

Jeff's 16:2

Jeremiah 262:2

Jeremy 110:3

Jill 2:20 7:10

113:15

136:13,14,20

138:15 139:10

141:22 150:8

151:11 156:2

164:19

Jill's 139:5 148:13

189:22

job 123:8 205:8

jobsite 203:17

Joe 108:20,22

John 2:4,22

3:19,21 6:22

7:6,13 12:2 47:8

48:4,5 207:6

225:10 231:11

246:4,11

248:15,22

Johnson 3:11 7:19

111:12

119:12,13,16

124:20,22

125:14,18,20

170:8,9,16,20

171:4,11,16

172:1

Judd 2:19 82:10

83:1,18

July 1:9

jump 20:10

jumping 4:20

Jun 1:7

junction 49:11

June 182:13,21

Jury 244:12

K

Karen 2:9 7:3 9:19

156:17 204:19

206:15 244:2

Karim 2:10 7:2

29:19 78:22

94:20 115:16
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121:7 128:3

140:11,17 183:4

199:11 230:17

231:4 232:3

Karim's 230:10

Kevin 3:10 8:12

key 61:2 81:14

118:15

130:6,8,11 150:2

157:6 192:9

232:22 234:4

keyword 147:18

kick 192:14,18

kicked 77:2

kinds 70:9

kit 181:20 182:2

kits 32:18

Kleiss 3:13 15:8

16:11,13 17:7

35:18,22 73:18

knob 40:4

42:5,9,21 81:13

Kojack 2:18 7:5

60:10 61:12,16

62:8 72:4

73:8,10 195:15

196:7 197:3,6

207:12

Kozi 111:14

L

lab 31:8 46:3,5

49:16 52:14

57:3,14,19,20

59:4 62:11 64:3

65:6 67:16 68:2

70:7,14 73:2

106:9,19 156:18

196:10 198:9

laboratory 2:18

214:7

labs 65:5 67:20

69:16,20

121:20,21 196:8

lack 106:20

lamp 214:18

lamps 258:15,17

land 206:19

language 34:15

36:20 40:16

44:20 45:8,17

47:17 58:17

59:22 68:11,22

69:5 79:17

80:6,20 97:20

102:8 112:19

113:12

114:12,22

123:22 124:8

126:12

128:18,20 143:1

154:1 167:3

171:18 176:12

192:11 198:8

201:12 211:17

236:15 238:1,2

239:21 258:21

262:2,6

LAPOOH

265:3,14

large 32:3 55:20

57:18 127:1

134:14 166:9

178:10 187:1

230:5,13 232:1

235:10 244:4

larger 15:6 60:9

171:1,3 220:14

228:22 229:6

231:16 232:13

233:21 257:22

last 4:6,13 5:8 27:7

59:17

79:14,16,17

103:10 104:2

117:10

134:13,19

161:14 169:10

172:5 173:14,21

180:13

186:18,22

193:17 196:2

212:15 225:18

226:8 228:17

237:3 238:19

239:2 240:1

242:19 258:12

later 46:21 48:1

85:12 115:17

116:6 135:22

164:4 183:19

latest 21:22 192:17

Laura 2:6 3:7 4:3

7:11,15 40:21

45:9 78:15 93:4

law 188:3

lawyer 17:14 36:2

85:2 112:4

lawyerly 112:19

lawyers 17:17 69:5

84:20 112:1,3,5

133:5 208:20

lead 14:16

least 23:5,8 31:1

34:20 58:21

102:20 122:19

124:17 130:1

139:9 172:6

190:9,18 191:7

196:12 197:13

209:6 213:15

216:1

leave 34:16 211:19

235:1

leaving 213:12

leeway 21:12

legacy 245:5

legal 210:1

Lennox 3:19 7:6

248:15

249:16,18

261:18

less 33:1,2 41:8

60:6 73:21

130:18 136:17

138:5,8 175:17

193:12 216:19

218:7,11 224:3

227:6 234:18

241:22

let's 10:19 12:1

18:14 20:10,17

34:16 38:15 87:2

135:3,9 143:4

147:15 149:5

150:15 184:7

210:5,7,11

212:13 222:17

223:2 227:8

231:1 236:10

252:9 259:2

letting 50:11 110:9

level 16:7 79:21

80:11,16 82:19

109:13 139:3,17

195:14 211:7

216:7,21

levels 109:18

LG 40:11,22

life 246:19

light 189:21

214:18,19

lighted 23:16,19
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24:2,15

lighting 21:3,18

24:10,13

26:6,8,19 27:2

214:17

lightings 25:1

lights 20:19 22:13

51:12

86:16,17,19

214:17 215:2

235:1 258:15

likely 175:3 189:5

241:12

limit 257:22

limitation 17:10

limited 224:9

234:3

limiting 219:7

line 25:4 165:21

174:14 178:22

179:3 191:13

liner 102:10,12

lines 14:8 79:22

234:10

lineup 92:16

liquid 165:12

166:18,19 258:4

list 32:12 103:11

240:20 254:1

260:11

listed 203:1,2

listening 209:20

literature 125:9

164:21 189:16

190:9 201:21

205:13

209:14,18

little 18:7 19:4

23:17 28:6

59:7,20 99:6

127:11,12

128:20 131:3

137:11 138:4,5,8

147:3 221:17

252:5,10

LLC 2:18

load 35:5 98:10,13

213:6

loaded 12:7

located 33:12

165:9 182:16

184:9

locations 214:21

Lochinvar 3:13

15:8 16:13 17:7

35:18 73:18

logged 12:10

logic 235:7

logical 223:14

229:11

Lois 254:16

long 17:8 36:5

45:13 46:7 62:19

63:22 74:20

131:14 143:9

152:6 157:9

158:6 163:9

164:6,9 185:18

187:17 220:16

224:15 245:16

longer 144:18

145:9 146:1

216:13

long-term 117:13

118:4,11 119:7

loop 70:18

loophole 15:1 52:9

loopholes 16:1,4

lose 145:5

loss 13:19 15:10

16:3,15,20

136:19 178:22

213:15

losses 97:13

215:17,21

216:1,15 217:6,9

218:5,7,10,11

lost 109:16 134:13

144:8 239:1,8

lot 4:8 21:12 26:13

31:7 43:12 46:3

48:14 51:7,9

75:5 123:11

129:16 131:13

134:7 140:3

157:10,14

162:21 191:1

225:7 233:20

234:14 244:19

247:2

loudly 252:5

louvered 141:4,6

142:18

low 98:22 104:7,14

121:19 190:8

244:11 255:21

256:5,6,16,17

lower

109:6,13,14,18

174:16 179:18

211:6 215:17,21

216:1

lowest 119:3

186:16

low-voltage 108:8

109:9,17

lunch 126:15,19

242:11 254:19

lunchtime 136:4

Lupin 163:10

M

machine 77:5,6,7

machines 39:1

81:1 86:11

Mainly 162:14

mains 186:2

maintain 17:8

64:8 95:16 98:20

139:17

maintained 36:4

maintaining 38:1

majority 178:20

248:12

MALE 8:18 13:4

20:6,9,13 21:9

27:7 35:21 43:3

47:7 69:1 72:11

84:16 86:6,9

88:13 93:18

95:21 107:18,20

108:5,11,13

111:6,8

112:10,11

119:21 122:16

123:19

126:8,14,18

130:9 132:16

135:22 152:22

153:8,10,11,21

175:12 208:20

218:21 227:9

228:3 229:21

236:17 241:6,7,8

242:5 246:2

249:20 250:19

252:20

man 40:19 221:6

manage 55:15

management 49:2
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51:8 57:18

65:12,14 70:21

71:11 73:4

mandating 31:16

mandatory

80:20,21

Mandyck 3:21

12:2,6,14

manner 57:4,19

manual 43:5 77:5

81:2,10 195:19

196:16 197:17

202:22 207:18

209:10,12

manually 43:7,9

44:2 100:2

manufacture

51:15 64:20

66:3,17 77:14

79:20 85:10,22

205:9

manufactured 9:1

11:1 13:8 18:17

48:15,16 110:16

146:17

manufacturer 9:1

11:1,19 13:9

18:18 58:13

66:12 71:12

72:2,9,14,22

75:16 82:16

94:16 110:16

144:16 145:10

164:9 172:7

189:4 194:16

195:7,21

196:4,20 197:2

206:13 216:16

222:7,17 224:16

226:8 232:22

233:1 247:18

248:16,18

250:22

manufacturers 4:7

14:18,22 15:4

16:6 19:16 32:7

79:9 92:22

93:5,8 117:8

140:5,9 146:10

155:19 156:14

188:8,11 189:15

193:19 194:8

199:9 200:18

203:5 207:20

211:11 239:22

240:21

manufacturer's

58:7 75:12 188:5

194:11 195:1

200:19 204:8,13

206:8 209:13,17

Manufacturers

8:11 38:18

manufactures

243:12

manufacturing

2:8,9,17 3:22

7:4,22 51:17

232:21 248:1

Marantan 3:18

margin 153:6

mark 3:3 7:20

129:2 132:2

143:3 153:13

158:5,19 159:21

190:16 256:1

260:5

market 75:2

116:15 117:19

127:13 137:8

139:21 145:21

179:5 231:15

232:20,21 244:9

246:6 247:2

marketability

156:6

marketing 23:4

marks 253:21

255:22

Mark's 130:4

Marshall 2:16

6:17 45:2,22

145:14 147:3

152:13 159:21

238:17

Marshall's 259:13

Mary 2:21 6:15

19:21 29:18 50:1

65:4 264:3,13

Mary's 70:5

Massoud 3:9 8:1

48:10 51:4

master 153:17

match 86:11

matched 132:19

material 4:10

102:11 137:17

138:7 141:5

matter 24:8,13

59:2 172:12

224:15

max 76:8

maximum 41:21

82:21

may 14:16 20:20

26:15 30:19

38:18 41:7 42:17

58:11 61:6,7

73:14 86:16

90:11 92:1,3,16

97:19 99:14

102:11 111:13

121:7 139:17

148:3 149:15

156:15 158:2

160:16 170:9

173:14 194:15

204:8,12 214:6

225:4 226:9,11

227:6

maybe 4:16 5:1

24:8,11 30:18

35:8 39:12 50:9

58:15 69:1 75:9

76:14 81:15

94:21 101:7

117:9,10 118:11

125:7 128:18

129:21 133:14

138:2 140:13

146:9 147:3

148:4 159:21

160:5 170:9

174:12 179:16

180:4,7,11

181:3,10

183:6,9,18

195:13 196:11

209:20 223:11

249:22 259:10

McQuay 3:11 7:19

mean 17:3 22:11

24:8,11 25:13

28:5,15 30:7

31:9 34:7

35:8,12 39:10,13

46:9 47:1 48:20

49:3 50:8,21

52:3,6

53:2,10,19

54:1,20 56:14,16

58:5,18,19

59:12,18 60:1

61:2 62:18,22

65:6 66:11 69:17

70:15 77:22

79:4,12 83:22

92:5 94:3
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101:6,11 104:6

108:9 116:3

118:9 121:8

125:20

128:3,4,14,17

129:8 130:4

138:1,20 140:20

142:15 145:12

147:18 148:11

149:6,10 150:3

153:14 157:6

160:9 163:2

171:1,20 172:22

177:20 189:10

193:16

194:12,17 195:9

197:20

198:1,7,22

199:7,19 200:5

201:5 202:6

204:8,22 206:1

212:5 217:13

220:6 221:7

223:15 228:18

229:2 230:3,6

232:17 235:8

246:21 247:14

248:6 255:6

256:8

260:6,12,17

261:11

meaning 35:19

139:15 222:19

means 8:22 10:21

13:8 18:16 23:2

75:7 90:17 98:2

104:13 110:15

112:19 127:2

145:20 152:9

155:8 172:4

176:5 178:18

184:22 214:4

218:9 247:9

254:17

meant 40:2 112:13

197:6

meantime 78:8

192:5

measured 37:9

165:20,22

measurement

129:15

mechanical 103:15

108:7 146:5

154:12

mechanically

104:10

mechanically-wise

106:10 107:2

mechanism 42:14

44:5

medication 156:15

meet 82:19 85:6

92:17,19 94:4,5

201:22

222:7,12,18

245:1

meeting 1:5

4:3,4,6,13

103:10 105:20

134:13 161:7

172:6 184:1

188:11,17 189:7

190:18 226:7

239:22 240:3

meetings 139:7

262:8

meets 164:11

198:9 223:4

melt 29:8 33:12

mention 134:15

249:8

merchandise 21:3

26:7

merging 34:13

MERV

119:13,15,18,19,

22 120:13

122:10,11

191:15 193:13

198:18 201:1,2

203:7,9

210:14,15,16,20

211:6

mesh 120:7

121:19,21

met 105:16 187:2

metal 155:11

metaphor 40:22

method 52:13

61:15 91:18

164:10 207:4

212:16

methodology

94:18

methods 82:9

159:1

metric 158:6

159:22 213:6

Meyers 2:9 7:3

9:19 10:8,13,16

16:9 128:12

131:2 133:22

134:4 156:17

194:9 197:22

198:3 200:3,17

202:8 203:12

204:4,7,22

205:4,7,16,21

244:2 246:22

mic 6:4 246:3

Michael 2:18

microphone 8:7

193:15 254:10

Mike 3:6,16 7:5,14

8:14 51:22 60:10

70:17 71:7 72:4

83:3 114:7

137:11 138:20

141:22 144:1

145:4 146:15

147:11 150:8

181:9 195:15

254:8

Mikes 59:3

Mike's 144:12

mild 154:12

mind 45:10

78:14,15

81:12,18,19

200:14 245:8

mine 148:14 154:2

minimal 118:2

minimum 162:8

216:7,20

217:9,11,13

218:4,9,15,20

219:16,17

221:18

minimums 216:10

Minnesota 101:12

minor 9:7 175:15

minute 76:13

194:1 196:15

251:20

minutes 231:1

251:22

mishear 56:10

missed 101:8

123:13 209:21

missing 103:7

134:19,20

mist 95:15

misting 95:14,17
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96:1,3,11,16

Mitsubishi 2:22

6:22 246:4 253:4

mixed 20:4

mixers 259:22

260:1

model 4:12

8:20,22

10:4,20,21 11:10

12:21 13:6,7

14:1 15:12

17:1,16 18:15,16

19:10,12,15

20:11 24:3 58:8

102:18 103:3

108:16 109:21

110:14 118:15

126:22 127:2

130:13,19

134:2,6,17

137:13 138:22

143:7,8,11

144:4,9,11,17,19

,20 145:7,11

146:7,19 147:5,9

149:1 150:16,22

151:13,20

153:15 155:2,8

157:10,15

167:16 169:17

171:8 173:4

174:15 175:3

176:20,22 177:1

178:9 179:3

215:13 218:7

219:14 226:17

242:17 247:6

259:17 261:6

models 19:17

144:1 145:1

155:2 156:3,13

168:22 215:22

242:20

modifications

148:16,18

modify 26:5

248:16

modulate 212:21

modulated 114:13

modulating

174:20

moisture 159:11

166:16,17

184:12

money 16:3

145:19,22

148:3,4 152:3

241:11

month 211:21

morning 97:18

127:21 135:13

239:8,12

242:9,13 254:1

259:7,13,14

motel 114:20

123:9 232:7

234:22

motor 167:8,9

168:11,12,14

169:11,12,21

170:11,12

171:2,3,6,19

174:10,21

176:15

215:9,14,15,16,1

9,20 216:8,17,19

217:8 218:6,7,11

219:14,15

220:14,15,17,20,

21,22 221:18

222:10,11,13

223:2,3,4,8,18

224:3,16 237:1

262:2

motors 167:5

215:8,12

216:1,6,10,21

218:4

219:4,5,7,21

220:7 222:18,19

223:6,10,11,13

224:3,6,14

motor's 167:9

mount 178:12

243:13

mounted 166:7

214:5,18

mounting 234:13

move 11:15

46:17,18 48:2

68:10 86:15

154:19 173:13

moving 45:16,17

114:21 176:4

multi-parameter

158:22

mutually 261:11

Myers 3:12 8:3

18:1 33:21 34:22

35:2 41:18 56:6

57:9,22

209:7,15,19

210:8,18,22

211:3,6,10,19

myself 29:19 70:5

N

National 2:12 6:20

8:10 23:11 26:4

29:16 33:20 34:5

35:8 42:19 51:3

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53:4 55:3,5 57:1

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17:12,22 18:11
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seven 234:18
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Seventy-five

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snow 251:17
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SoCal 46:2

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230:6

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s's 127:7

stabilization

30:9,13,21,22

36:21,22
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37:4,9,20,22

38:5

stabilized 30:10

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146:21 148:1,9

149:4,11,14

172:5 180:10

181:2 182:11,16

Star 21:14

22:1,3,17,18

23:6

staring 4:15

start 4:17

30:6,13,18 31:10

109:8 135:12

149:5 208:16

217:18

started 31:2 34:12

145:12 157:8

starting 11:15

45:12 155:1

225:5 242:3

starts 30:14 76:18

state 14:9 30:10

37:6,11 38:1

50:4 84:18 97:19

105:10 129:12

175:16 189:12

194:12 223:11

stated 138:13,15

139:6 164:22

168:6 194:11

statement 129:14

130:15 145:6

175:16

199:15,17

statements 206:2

states 41:13

129:20 233:7

static 40:3 176:16

181:13 182:8

187:8,9 190:11

206:19,22

215:7,10 220:7

224:8,17

stating 139:5

246:17

status 187:18

stay 17:19 18:2

158:6 232:8

234:22

stays 146:8

steady 37:6,11

38:1 175:16

223:10

steam 176:14

177:6,21

178:2,4,15,19

179:18 180:19

182:18 237:3

Stem 3:16 8:14

52:3,16,19

59:6,12 70:17,21

71:14,18,21

72:17 73:1,6

114:7

181:9,17,19

182:1,6,9 254:7

step 8:6 158:22

Stephens 2:7 7:9

12:17,20 13:1

15:2 16:2,8

17:18 162:11

164:8

steps 78:1

stepwise 158:21

Steve 3:20 8:8

Stevens 162:11

stimulated 82:10

stinky 225:9

stipulate 210:1

stipulated 40:12

stipulating 41:4

stipulation 17:8

STMB 162:19

stop 208:12

storage 15:13

16:14 17:2,9

165:9

store 3:9 8:1 48:10

54:16 69:12

storewide 69:9,11

story 226:15

straps 89:1

strike 128:2

strikes 220:12

strikingly 127:20

strip 155:10

structure 166:7

245:14

structures 213:11

struggled 24:9

stuck 57:2

studied 31:16

stuff 24:11 29:11

41:7 66:18 121:9
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170:18 212:6

sub 86:8,10

subject 25:20

45:20 78:11

180:6 222:19,20

244:21,22 245:1

248:10

submit 79:10

subset 246:12

sucking 30:15

suction 109:5,6,14

sudden 27:11

suddenly 23:3

27:12

suggest 4:15 76:12

129:21 162:20

173:22 251:16

suggested 58:16

209:21

suggesting 21:1

83:3 98:8 109:20

144:12

suggestion 42:2

56:8 71:9

76:7,20 120:14

131:4 187:12

237:8

Suggestions 59:21

suggests 83:7

87:16 89:2

Suite 1:15

summary 168:4

summertime

54:19

super 224:2

supermarket

28:3,10 48:14

51:19

supermarkets

41:9 51:6

supplied 167:8

184:10 187:7

203:17

supplies 64:21

supply 64:16

68:15 69:13

71:10 154:11

165:11 166:17

167:7 182:17

194:7 204:20,21

213:12 214:5

support 156:8

supposed 203:16

207:5

sure 6:1,9 9:18

11:14 26:11,21

27:14 33:3 37:15

40:1,16 41:5

45:16,17 47:15

83:18 86:5 89:8

90:2 93:16

114:13 131:3

136:5 140:10

142:4 146:22

155:8 158:2,4

172:17,21

175:19 190:11

193:15 203:1,6

216:4 220:19

222:2 226:18

231:17 243:1

247:12 249:18

252:4,6 262:9

surface 13:18 75:5

115:10,11

142:19 161:2,3

surfaces 214:20

surprise 226:16

surprised 23:15

SUSAN 265:3,14

SW 1:13

sweat 74:16

switch 39:1,15,18

49:5 213:6

switched 39:2

switches 59:14

sympathetic 70:5

system 49:2

51:8,10 57:18

60:15 65:12,14

67:9 70:21

88:21,22 89:3

96:1,2,3,11,16

99:1,13

100:10,16

101:17 104:21

109:10,12,17

121:17

128:11,15

154:10

160:17,18

166:19 176:4

177:10 178:2,5

204:2 242:7

systems 71:11 73:4

95:14,15,18

110:15,21

111:19 121:12

127:3,8 128:20

159:9 160:11

241:22 258:3

T

table 79:14 181:13

183:14 216:5

tables 132:9

219:19

taking 37:19 187:3

talk 47:20 58:6

77:1 110:10

112:7 196:21

251:22 252:8

259:12 262:10

talking 6:4

34:13,14 40:14

59:18 85:15

111:22 116:3

119:17 128:21

137:12 140:21

144:9 145:8

146:22 147:1

162:12 170:12

171:4,21 193:15

195:16 202:21

206:10 229:6

230:2,20 232:19

252:22 259:9

talks 84:7

tank 15:5,6

tape 146:11

taxpayers 153:9

technical 200:15

technically 22:11

208:22

technologies 17:20

114:8

tele 233:5

temperature 31:19

37:2,13 38:3,20

43:16 87:4,6,7

temperatures

92:18 94:9 98:22

temporary 212:8

ten 15:9 16:14,18

17:9 76:12

215:20

216:1,8,10

217:1,6,8

218:9,11 220:10

221:16
Capital Reporting Company

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tend 191:5

tended 85:13

tentatively 172:7

term 68:19 111:3

146:1 194:9

200:7 226:21,22

terminal 111:21

112:21

terminology 125:8

terms 15:1,19 57:4

146:13 155:19

206:18

216:13,15 254:4

259:7,9

test 21:5 22:1,2

25:17 26:22 27:2

28:15,16 30:6,7

31:17 34:11

35:11 37:7 38:21

39:19 40:20,22

41:5,14

42:10,11,13

43:17 48:19

49:17 50:8

52:5,10,12,13,14

53:10,11,16 56:9

57:14,19,20

60:5,13,19

61:3,15

62:11,16,18

63:9,16,19

64:3,17

65:5,6,16

67:11,15,18

68:2,12,17

69:14,16,19

70:7,11,14

71:1,2,8,9 72:19

73:8 75:11,22

76:3,8,10 77:12

78:6,13 80:10

82:14 83:8

84:1,2 86:20

87:9 89:15,21

90:18 91:17

92:18,20,22

93:21

94:2,10,11,16

95:18 97:4,12

98:6 99:1,19,20

100:7 102:13

104:4,9,21

105:1,3

106:2,4,8,19

107:12 113:16

119:5,8

120:14,20,21

121:3,9,20 122:9

124:4,12 125:21

126:2 129:19

138:19 142:10

143:9 145:3

146:20 147:22

148:7,22 150:14

151:21,22 152:4

155:11,15,21

156:18,20 157:4

158:7,9 160:1

162:8,13,19,22

164:9,10,16,21

165:22

167:11,17

169:2,3 173:6,7

176:6,10 178:1

179:11

185:7,17,19

186:6

187:6,10,14

188:5,14 190:12

192:8,17 193:3

194:22

195:3,8,12,14,17

,22 196:8,9,10

198:1,8,9

199:13,15,17

201:5,22 202:1

203:13,14

205:16,22

206:3,4,5

207:8,9,10,13,16

,17,19 208:8

209:1 210:11

213:5,19

214:7,13 215:1,2

222:19,20

237:14 242:22

246:14 252:21

254:4,10 256:22

257:8,20 259:18

260:17,22

tested 9:22 10:4

23:21 62:1 68:9

77:22 79:20

92:8,19 93:11,12

110:1 118:1

124:5,13 125:22

136:10 137:4,5

144:21 151:14

157:14 162:21

164:10 168:18

169:12 171:19

173:3 176:21

177:1,8 178:9

182:4,5,6 184:15

187:22 188:1

194:10 200:18

204:6,15 206:16

213:4,18 214:12

216:19 235:13

240:20

242:21,22

244:18 247:4

255:13 256:6,7

260:15,16

testing 22:10

26:17 30:18

33:13 37:20 38:6

48:11 49:16

56:1,5,22 60:7

67:21 68:11 70:2

78:6,11 87:18

89:4 90:7,14

106:7 108:17

115:6,14

116:11,13

117:17 118:3,16

136:16 140:4

154:14,16

155:16 157:11

159:15,17

161:6,9 162:8

165:14,16

166:2,11,21

167:1,13 168:19

170:13 178:4,19

184:17 185:6

186:8 194:14

196:6,22 202:6

203:8 207:14,21

208:6 223:7,14

244:22 245:7

246:22

248:3,4,8,10

255:7 256:10

257:6,8,11 260:9

testings 23:2

tests 27:12 39:22

70:9 72:1 91:18

119:7 156:4

text 34:19 92:10

thank 8:7 11:20

27:20,21 28:22

33:4 38:10,12

44:9 86:1 90:21

91:6 92:11 94:13

98:15 111:15

140:7 152:22

158:19 163:16

165:4,5 167:20

176:2 182:22

191:20 233:15

234:20 253:9,11

261:22

thanks 33:7 36:17

97:22 110:9

183:17 227:13
Capital Reporting Company

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Tharp 2:8 5:5,13

7:8 41:10,13,16

91:1,6 114:1,3

117:18

120:6,11,13,18,2

1

121:2,5,10,12,15

122:13,17

123:12,14,17

125:7,11,16,19

129:18,21

162:18 163:3,6

165:2

173:13,18,22

174:8 175:14,21

176:1 187:1,12

191:11 194:21

203:3 204:12

212:11

217:19,22

218:3,18 219:2

227:1 234:21

241:4 242:16

243:11,18 244:8

246:11,15,17

247:7,17,21

248:2 249:3,15

250:22

255:8,11,14

256:5,11,15,20

257:3,8,13

259:20 260:4

that'll 30:19 85:5

that's 10:16 13:1

19:15 22:5,7,8

23:20,22 24:6

25:3,19 27:16

28:19

32:4,10,15,22

34:21 37:9

40:1,5 45:15

46:16 47:16

48:7,13

49:4,7,21 50:15

53:6,8,19 54:20

56:16 57:3

58:2,15,19

61:2,12,17

62:1,5,14

63:8,10,14,18,22

64:6,7 66:1 67:4

68:21 69:2 71:3

72:15,16 73:1

75:3 76:3,5

77:16 79:5 80:3

81:13,16,19

83:2,4,11 84:12

85:14 86:1,22

90:18 92:5

93:14,16 94:20

95:4 97:22 98:11

104:3 105:18

108:9,19 111:21

112:13,16,19

113:5 114:19

118:11 121:19

122:6,18 123:1

125:21 127:19

128:13,14,16,17

129:11 130:16

131:14 132:1

133:5,11 134:22

135:15 136:3

137:21 138:2

139:5,18

140:2,5,20

142:3,4,22

143:13

144:5,11,14

145:2,7,9,10,11,

12

148:5,11,13,15,1

8 150:2,19

151:22 152:9

155:7,13 156:21

157:20,22

158:13 161:15

163:17 170:14

171:20

172:9,11,16

175:20 176:4

178:12 179:15

181:6,20 182:2

183:8 187:14

188:19 191:7

194:16

196:6,7,12,19

199:14,19,21

200:5,22

201:3,10,12

202:5,11 203:11

204:9 206:1

207:5,18

209:2,5,22

212:3,4,5,14

217:13

218:2,6,20 220:1

222:21 224:1,7

226:15 227:11

230:7 231:13

232:20 233:7

235:12 238:7,8

239:9 241:6,7,11

242:21 244:9

245:18 246:19

247:7 248:16

250:7 253:5

254:8 259:5

260:14,16

261:21

theirs 139:7

147:20

themselves 93:12

158:22

theoretically 22:19

theory 139:12

197:12

thereafter 263:6

therefore 195:3

218:6

therein 74:12

thereof 110:16

111:20 112:2

127:4 130:7,15

there's 9:8,18

15:13 18:5

28:5,14,18,20

31:5 33:16 41:10

47:4 48:17 50:19

51:9 54:6,22

61:14 62:19,20

64:5,15 68:11

74:9,19 75:1,5

77:5,6,7

78:16,18 81:15

83:22 96:10

104:14 105:11

113:12 114:4,12

117:4 118:9

127:6 128:1

129:8 135:10

138:5,6,7,8

142:12 144:18

147:5 155:14

157:10,11,14,16

168:4 171:13

175:16 181:13

193:1,9 196:9

198:13 199:8

204:2 206:12,13

210:5 212:14

216:5 224:5

226:16 234:14

245:4 254:5

255:12 256:18

260:17,18

262:1,5

thermal 16:16,17

102:12 141:16

159:11 165:9

thermostat 162:2

They'll 56:11

they're 5:16 20:4

23:11,13 32:20

34:3,8 39:20
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51:10 56:17,20

57:5,7,8

60:17,18 63:10

67:12 70:10

77:12 80:9,14

87:14 96:5 99:11

100:3 105:14

132:6,22 135:22

136:16,17,18

138:4 147:19

148:3,7 152:2

157:13 187:3

196:12 200:12

205:12 207:22

208:1,5 220:9

224:8 228:4

230:4,5,20

231:14 236:5

239:14 240:1

242:6 244:21,22

245:1 250:4

255:12 260:11

They've 46:3

thicker 138:5,7

thin 115:12 161:4

third 85:8,14 86:7

196:8,9

thoughts 33:4

131:1 226:22

three-door 51:18

threw 260:6

throw 135:11

191:12 194:21

203:20

throws 55:4

tied 261:8

tighter 56:13

till 254:22

tilt 188:21

Tim 75:8 249:21

Timothy 2:11

title 35:16 203:4

today 6:6 75:2

78:20 128:4

141:20 158:12

187:19 226:14

230:20 260:8

261:22

today's 122:19

tolerance

247:20,21 248:1

Tom 3:11 7:19

119:12 124:20

170:8

tomorrow 46:10

135:13 184:1

192:15,19

238:13

239:10,12 242:9

262:7,10

ton 227:6 230:18

233:20 234:8,9

tonight 259:12

262:10

tons 227:6 229:3

233:18

tool 134:7

top 21:19 91:5

228:16

topic 74:5 93:7

topics 19:11

toss 153:1

total 82:15 141:11

160:17

touch 142:13

toward 11:15

45:17 158:22

213:15

towards 173:15

track 144:8

trade 163:11

traditionally

22:22 32:20

trailer 232:10

233:11

trained 216:13

Trane 2:20 7:10

136:12,13 156:2

164:20

transcript 263:7

264:5,7 265:5,7

transcription

264:1,8 265:1,8

Transcriptionist

264:13 265:14

transcripts 181:1

transfer 136:21

139:11

141:11,13,16

149:17 166:17

transferred

165:11

transfers 185:8,9

transformer

98:4,5

Translation

112:18

traps 213:10,18

Traulsen 2:21

6:15 8:13 50:1

65:4 109:1

treat 57:6 229:17

253:12

treated 117:7

140:6 174:19

228:22

229:2,3,19

230:22 244:3,14

249:14 253:8

treating 19:17

116:20 230:9

235:6

treatment 226:11

249:13

tree 207:2

tremendous 23:4

trial 121:20

tried 242:12

257:22

Trigger 126:18

trouble 19:4 44:4

252:6

true 2:17 3:22

109:9 139:10

144:1 174:15

175:20 212:6

231:13 232:19

263:7 264:7

265:8

try 29:19 45:4

46:8,10 93:21

110:3 138:16

155:11 192:15

trying 15:1 29:17

31:3 32:11 50:22

55:6 60:14 61:10

65:14,15 67:10

74:4 95:7 105:18

130:16

146:16,22

157:19 158:1

163:4 177:15,17

190:13

192:17,19

197:4,8 200:3

201:12,14

206:11 209:2

210:2 216:16

226:4 233:21
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262:5

TS 175:12,13

tube 141:2

tubes 115:11 161:3

162:3

Tucker 7:16

turn 25:18 40:4

43:20 49:16 50:3

51:11,12 52:15

56:20 59:12,13

63:6 70:22

71:3,5 72:19

turned 81:2 84:8

86:19 215:2

258:15,19

turning 50:10

turns 35:6 39:17

40:19,20

45:12,14 84:10

two-door 51:17

two-offs 116:17

two-piston 175:11

two-speed 174:19

type 10:22 13:8

24:19 32:17

39:14,17 40:3

42:14 44:5

52:11,13 58:8,13

60:3 78:4 102:12

110:4,15 111:19

116:7 118:15

127:3 128:21

162:1 169:21

187:6 197:15

204:2 205:8

219:7 226:20

232:10,15

233:5,8 234:5

238:5 249:9

250:4,7 257:11

typed 264:5 265:5

types 29:8 54:5

90:14 115:5,13

116:10,12

117:16 183:15

226:10 229:4

245:15 250:10

typewriting 263:6

typical 161:22

233:18,19 251:8

typically 31:1

120:9 121:18

123:9

typing 239:12

U

U.S 2:4,5,6

Uh-huh 96:13

Uh-uh 112:9

UL 7:5 60:10 72:4

195:15

UL555 214:8

UL555-S 214:9

ULE 188:10,16

189:6 190:18

192:16

ultimately 158:21

ultraviolet 86:17

214:19

Um 205:4

unanimous 154:8

228:6,11

236:8,22

237:4,11,18,21

241:18,21

253:16

uncomfortable

190:3

understand 28:13

42:7 45:19

50:2,22 51:1

62:6 69:22 70:7

77:19,20 80:2

83:10 95:6,22

97:21 98:6 99:7

110:5 122:16

128:12 131:18

137:16 138:16

142:16,17

146:16 157:18

172:21 178:7

189:3 198:5,12

199:8 202:11

216:4 217:4

219:19 220:5

221:3,8 229:11

233:16 253:22

262:4

understanding

14:1 46:14 75:10

85:11 106:21

128:8 179:6

257:3

understating

16:13

understood 93:10

131:15 171:21

172:18

under-voltage

108:11,12,13,14

Underwriters 2:18

unducted

169:6,7,13

171:19

unfortunately

22:16 30:4 43:10

194:5

unified 55:17

uniform 193:20

uniformly 229:17

unique 90:4

235:10

unit 9:22 15:9,17

21:18 22:22

26:15 31:2 32:12

37:5 56:21

57:3,17 59:2

60:5 61:17 68:16

71:22 72:7,15

73:12 75:22

82:18 85:9,12

89:2 91:17

92:3,4 103:16

104:11 105:3,15

106:7,18,21

107:14 139:18

140:3,12,13

147:22

148:12,13,16

149:4 154:15

155:14 156:18

158:15,18

159:16 161:6,8

165:15,16 166:7

167:1,11,12,16

168:18,19

171:2,19 175:11

177:20 178:2,3,5

179:12

184:15,16

185:4,11,19

187:4

194:3,10,14

195:18 196:10

198:14,22

199:2,9

200:18,20

201:7,17 202:12

203:8 204:10,16

205:3,12,14,19

211:5 213:4,19

214:13 215:15

222:11 232:8

233:11,12,19

234:8

unitary 187:1
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231:8 232:1

United 233:6

units 18:16 20:22

23:21 30:19

32:14 56:16,17

77:12,22 79:18

99:11 105:16

124:5,13 144:4

154:14 166:21

172:22 185:17

191:1 203:20

213:3,18 214:11

224:12

230:19,20

234:16 239:4

243:21

unit's 30:20 49:5

123:10 198:20

204:15

unless 52:5 64:10

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