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87–668 2015

A REVIEW OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF VA’S 

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION 

AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC 

OPPORTUNITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2014 

Serial No. 113–55 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 


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COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

JEFF MILLER, Florida, Chairman 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida, Vice-Chairman 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee 

JEFF DENHAM, California 

BILL FLORES, Texas 

JON RUNYAN, New Jersey 

DAN BENISHEK, Michigan 

TIM HUELSKAMP, Kansas 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

PAUL COOK, California 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

DAVID JOLLY, Florida 

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine, Ranking 

Member 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida 

MARK TAKANO, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

ANN KIRKPATRICK, Arizona 

RAUL RUIZ, California 

GLORIA NEGRETE MCLEOD, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

JON TOWERS, Staff Director 

NANCY DOLAN, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

BILL FLORES, Texas, Chairman 

JON RUNYAN, New Jersey 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

PAUL COOK, California 

BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio 

MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 

Member 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

ANN KIRKPATRICK, Arizona 

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of rule XI of the Rules of the House, public hearing records 

of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs are also published in electronic form. The printed 

hearing record remains the official version. Because electronic submissions are used to 

prepare both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process of converting 

between various electronic formats may introduce unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the current publication process and should diminish as the process 

is further refined. 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Thursday, February 27, 2014 

A Review of the Effectiveness of VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program ....................................................................................................... 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Hon. Bill Flores, Chairman ..................................................................................... 1 

WITNESS 

Mr. Daniel Bertoni, Director, Education, Workforce, and Income Security 

U.S. Government Accountability Office .............................................................. 3 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 23 

Ms. Heather Ansley, Esq., MSW, Vice President of Veterans Policy VetFirst ... 5 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 36 

Mr. Paul Varela, Assistant National Legislative, Director Disable American 

Veterans ................................................................................................................ 7 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 46 

Mr. Jack Kammerer, Director, Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment 

Service, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans 

Affairs .................................................................................................................... 14 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 55 

STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD 

Paralyzed Veterans of America .............................................................................. 57 

Wounded Warrior Project ........................................................................................ 60 

QUESTION FOR THE RECORD 

Question From: Hon. Flores to Jack Kammerer ................................................... 61 


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A REVIEW OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF VA’S 

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM 

Thursday, February 27, 2014 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in 

Room 334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Bill Flores [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Flores, Takano, Brownley, and Kirkpatrick. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN BILL FLORES 

Mr. FLORES. Good morning. The subcommittee will come to 

order. 

I want to begin by welcoming everyone to our first subcommittee 

hearing of the second session of the 113th Congress. 

Like you, I look forward to a productive session working with my 

friend and ranking member, Mr. Takano, and I want to thank all 

of you for being here this morning. 

Today the subcommittee will conduct an oversight hearing on the 

Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment or VR&E program at 

the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

This program and its VR&E counselors provide a wide array of 

rehabilitation and employment services through personalized rehab 

plans to help the most severely wounded and disabled veterans in 

employment or reach maximum independent living. 

I believe the VR&E program should be the crown jewel of benefits provided to veterans through the Veterans Benefits Administration since this program has the opportunity to provide veterans 

great services to transition them to independence and employment. 

While VR&E counselors continue to provide these vital services 

to our veterans, I believe, and I am sure our witnesses on the first 

panel would agree with me, that more must be done to improve the 

performance and the effectiveness of this program to ensure that 

veterans are receiving the services they deserve in a timely manner. 

A recent GAO report crystallized some of these concerns by highlighting VR&E’s problems with accurate performance metrics, 

workload management issues, and consistency of services throughout the nearly 400 VR&E office locations. 

As I mentioned in our hearing last fall on VR&E’s independent 

living program, I do not fault the VA’s central office and field staff 


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for many of these issues. I believe that most of these issues stem 

from the lack of attention and resources that are provided to the 

VR&E Service by senior VA leaders which has been VA’s practice 

through many administrations regardless of party. 

VA’s own testimony states that it saw a 14 percent increase in 

applications in fiscal year 2013 and as more and more veterans 

apply for disability benefits, I am sure that this number will only 

grow as budgets remain nearly flat. 

It is because of this growth in workload and issues raised by the 

GAO report that I recently introduced two pieces of legislation to 

help modernize the VR&E program, H.R. 4037, Improving Veterans 

Access to Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Act of 2014, 

which streamlines processes of VR&E to help counselors tackle 

their ever-growing caseloads and ensure that the most severely-disabled veterans have timely access to the services that they need for 

maximum rehabilitation. 

H.R. 4038, the Veterans Benefits Administration Information 

and Technology Improvement Act of 2014, would require the VA to 

allocate more funding to update VR&E’s corporate IT system called 

C–WINRS, C dash W–I-N–R-S, to improve oversight and tracking 

of taxpayer resources and the outcome of VR&E participants. 

My concerns about VR&E’s IT system continue to be validated 

when I hear stories about VR&E’s offices not having internet 

connectivity for months at a time or offices who have to rely on old, 

outdated fax machines and paper more than computers and technology solutions. 

I look forward to hearing testimony from our witnesses today and 

I hope to learn more about VA’s plans to update their systems and 

implement the recommendations of the GAO’s report. 

We all agree that this program has the ability to greatly improve 

the lives of veterans, but more work still needs to be done so that 

we fulfill our promise to every eligible veteran. 

With that, I will recognize the ranking member, Mr. Takano, for 

his opening remarks. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Today we will hear statements and testimony about the effectiveness of the Department of Veterans Affairs’ Vocational Rehabilitation Employment program, otherwise known as VR&E. This program was established to help eligible veterans find gainful employment and to facilitate their successful transition back into their 

communities. 

The VR&E program helps return veterans back to the workforce 

by employing a five-track model of one, reemployment; two, rapid 

access to employment; three, self-employment; four, employment 

through long-term services or through long-term service; and, five, 

independent living for veterans unable to return to work. 

Servicemembers returning from war are coming home with traumatic brain injuries, posttraumatic stress disorder, and many serious physical injuries. The VR&E program is uniquely positioned to 

assist our veterans in reintegrating them back into their communities and finding meaningful employment. 

With the major draw down of our Armed Forces, we need to understand the impact of the growing wave of returning veterans and 


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to know if VR&E is properly staffed to meet the challenges in 2014 

and beyond. 

I look forward to hearing the new VR&E director’s goals for the 

program as well as the program’s financial needs. I also look forward to hearing the GAO’s detailed review of the program and 

their recommendations on how we can improve the program. 

Nothing is more important than ensuring that our transitioning 

servicemembers have access to the services like VR&E that they 

need to succeed in civilian life. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for scheduling this hearing today and 

I yield back. 

Mr. FLORES. I thank the ranking member. 

I now invite our first panel to the table. With us today is Mr. 

Daniel Bertoni with the U.S. Government Accountability Office; 

Ms. Heather Ansley with VetsFirst; and Mr. Paul Varela with 

DAV. 

Your complete written statements will be made part of the hearing record and each of you will be recognized for five minutes for 

your oral statement. 

Just as a reminder, you have to push the button in order to be 

heard over the PA system, and also the green light means that you 

are good to go. The yellow light means you have a minute left and 

the red light means that you need to wrap up soon. 

So let’s begin with Mr. Bertoni. You are now recognized for five 

minutes. 

STATEMENT OF DANIEL BERTONI 

Mr. BERTONI. Chairman Flores, Ranking Member Takano, Members of the subcommittee, good morning. 

I am pleased to discuss our work on the Department of Veterans 

Affairs’ Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment program which 

provided education, training, and job placement services to over 

120,000 veterans last year. 

My remarks today are based on our January 2014 report which 

examined outcomes for veterans seeking employment through the 

VR&E program and progress VA has made in addressing critical 

management issues. 

In summary, we found that of almost 17,000 veterans who entered the program in fiscal year 2003 and received employment-related services, just under half obtained suitable employment by the 

end of fiscal year 2012. Another 30 percent discontinued the program, 20 percent were still receiving services. 

While the average time to obtain employment was about four and 

a half years, time frames varied. For example, almost half of all 

veterans completed the program within three to six years, but 

nearly one-fourth achieved suitable employment in years seven 

through ten. 

One reason for the lengthy time frames is that a good number 

of participants discontinued or interrupted their programs along 

the way, sometimes more than once before achieving success. 

Veterans face several common challenges to completing the program and obtaining employment. We found that veterans with 


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mental health conditions and those who worked with multiple staff 

over time took considerably longer to complete their programs. 

VA staff and veterans we interviewed also cited family obligations, financial difficulties, and civilian employers’ limited understanding of military work experience as barriers to rehabilitation. 

With regard to VA’s progress in addressing critical management 

issues, we identified several key weaknesses. First, VA has identified limitations with its primary measure of program success, the 

rehabilitation rate, and is considering an alternative measure. 

However, its proposed measure for individual staff reflects only 

the number and not the rate of successful outcomes and does not 

reflect the extent to which veterans are discontinued from the program without rehabilitation. Thus, it does not provide sufficient 

context for understanding overall program performance both regionally or nationally. 

Going forward, we have recommended that VA consider additional measures to provide a fuller picture of program success. 

VA also lacks performance measures related to enhancing veterans’ long-term employment outcomes and currently considers a 

job placement to be successful if employment is maintained for only 

60 days. 

Research and practices at other federal employment programs 

suggest that VA’s measure may be insufficient to gauge long-term 

employment success and VA may miss an opportunity to hold staff 

accountable and make program adjustments to achieve such outcomes. 

With regard to workload management, VA’s formula for allocating staff among regional office’s may also be contributing to 

some ongoing workload challenges. We found that the ratio of cases 

to staff varied widely among offices with some averaging fewer 

than 100 cases per staff and others averaging several hundred. 

Currently the VA staff allocation formula does not take into account workloads such as educational and vocational counseling 

which are substantial in some locations, and regional managers in 

five of the eight offices we contacted raised concern that the formula which has not been revised since 2003 may not effectively assign staff where they are most needed. 

VA also lacks information about the regional offices’ varied approaches to managing their caseloads. For example, some offices 

have veterans work with a single staff person throughout the rehab 

process and others may have veterans work with multiple staff who 

specialize in specific phases for types of cases. 

Unfortunately, VA has not assessed the relative advantages or 

disadvantages of these varied approaches which is concerning given 

our finding that veterans who work with more staff over time are 

less likely to achieve suitable employment. 

And, finally, we identified some gaps in SSA’s training despite 

ongoing improvement initiatives. In particular, we found that VA 

does not provide sufficient training on helping veterans with job 

placement and workplace accommodations which are key to a modern approach to ensuring veterans with disabilities secure and 

maintain employment. 


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Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I am happy to answer any questions that you or other Members of the subcommittee 

may have. Thank you. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF DANIEL BERTONI APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Mr. Bertoni. 

Ms. ANSLEY. 

STATEMENT OF HEATHER ANSLEY 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you. 

Chairman Flores, Ranking Member Takano, and distinguished 

Members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting VetsFirst to 

share our views on the effectiveness of the Department of Veterans 

Affairs’ Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment or VR&E program. 

Access to quality vocational rehabilitation services is critical to 

helping veterans with disabilities receive the skills and training 

necessary to help them reintegrate into the workforce. 

The opportunity to participate in the workforce is critical not 

only because of the financial benefits from employment but also because of the intrinsic value of work. Without the opportunity to 

continue participating in the workforce, many veterans with disabilities may become disconnected from the very society they 

pledged to preserve and protect. 

Data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that many 

veterans with VA disability ratings of 60 percent or higher are not 

participating in the workforce. VetsFirst is concerned about veterans with disability who like other people with disabilities face 

barriers to employment that include misinformation about disability and misperceptions about required accommodations. 

Even if they know about the Americans With Disabilities Act or 

the ADA, many disabled veterans are unsure about disclosing a 

disability to an employer and fear job-related discrimination due to 

a disability. 

VA’s VR&E services are critical to helping servicemembers and 

veterans with service-connected disabilities who need assistance in 

developing and achieving a new path to employment. 

According to the Veterans Benefits Administration’s fiscal year 

2012 annual report, 121,236 veterans received VR&E services during fiscal year 2012. Approximately 79 percent of these veterans 

served during the Gulf War era. VR&E considered 9,949 veterans 

in fiscal year 2012 to have successfully completed their rehabilitation program. 

The GAO’s recent report on VA’s VR&E program laid out many 

challenges that hinder veterans in completing their VR&E services. 

As was said already, these challenges include the veteran’s disability, the need for a realistic employment plan, family obligations, and issues related to military transition. 

The presence of an employment barrier due to a disability is one 

critical factor that makes veterans who are seeking VR&E services 

unique from other veterans returning to the workforce. VetsFirst is 

concerned about VR&E’s success in helping veterans with disabilities make a successful return to the workforce. 


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According to GAO, veterans, especially those with mental health 

issues, are facing challenges as they go through the rehab process. 

These challenges were illustrated by the GAO’s finding that veterans with mental health conditions experience a decreased likelihood of obtaining a successful outcome within eight years of entering VR&E than those with other disabilities. 

To address the needs of these and other veterans, we are pleased 

that VR&E is adding courses on mental health awareness and 

techniques to their training regimen for all vocational rehabilitation counselors. 

VA must also ensure, however, that employees are properly 

trained on other issues that hinder the return to work of veterans 

with particularly significant disabilities. 

We believe that these disabled veterans need more information 

about how to approach the workplace as a person living with a disability including understanding workplace accommodations. 

To help veterans address some of their fears about approaching 

the workplace as a person with a disability, a research study conducted by the Northeast ADA Center in conjunction with the 

Army’s Wounded Warrior program concluded in part that information about the ADA, including disclosure decisions and accommodation practices, should be included in a veteran’s vocational rehabilitation. 

In its report, GAO noted the need for additional training on accommodations for vocational rehabilitation counselors and we urge 

VA to develop and implement as soon as possible training on workplace accommodations. 

We also encourage VA to partner with the Job Accommodation 

Network which is a service of the Department of Labor to facilitate 

training on these issues and to connect veterans for future accommodation needs that they may have. 

Once placed in employment, some veterans need more supports 

to ensure their long-term success. VR&E considers a veteran to be 

rehabilitated if he or she maintains employment for at least 60 

days. Although some veterans’ cases may be followed for longer 

than 60 days, we believe that more must be done to ensure the 

long-term success of veterans with disabilities in the workforce, not 

only in placement but in retention and in promotion. 

Thus, we believe VR&E should consider developing more partnerships with nonprofit organizations that provide the intense 

long-term services needed to assist veterans living with significant 

disabilities, including mental health conditions, in returning to and 

remaining in the workforce. 

Lastly, we support efforts to ensure that VR&E receives increased supports which include additional staffing resources and 

access to information technology to help them better meet the 

needs of veterans. 

For example, recent staffing increases have helped decrease the 

VR&E counselor caseloads, but more must be done. Additional 

gains will only come from more investment in VR&E and its services. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to share our views this 

morning. This concludes my testimony and I would be pleased to 

answer any questions. 


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[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF HEATHER ANSLEY APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Ms. Ansley. 

And, Mr. Varela. 

STATEMENT OF PAUL VARELA 

Mr. VARELA. Good morning, Chairman Flores, Ranking Member 

Takano, and Members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting 

DAV to testify at today’s hearing to examine ways to maximize the 

effectiveness of the Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment voc 

rehab program. 

We appreciate the subcommittee’s continued interest in oversight 

essential towards maintaining and enhancing this vital program. 

The committee’s work ensures that our Nation continues to fulfill 

its promises to the men and women who served. It is indeed a 

pleasure to offer our organization’s insights into the vocational rehabilitation program. 

For over ten years, I had the distinct honor to serve as a DAV 

national service officer in New York and Los Angeles and witnessed firsthand the transformative effect of this program. 

My oral remarks will summarize four key points from my written 

testimony. 

First, DAV feels and the recent GAO report confirms the current 

voc rehab counselor to client ratio is too high and disproportionate 

throughout VR&E. As we have recommended, VR&E should maintain a voc rehab counselor to client ratio of no more than one to 

125. 

We were concerned to learn that eight offices average a ratio of 

one to 175 and in the Cleveland regional office, they average one 

to 206. Voc rehab counselors have a very hands-on approach with 

their participants and require the time and ability to address the 

unique needs and concerns of program participants more effectively. 

The GAO report also confirmed what we had known before the 

findings of the report were published that demand for VR&E services is increasing and has done so steadily since 2008. There were 

95,000 program participants in 2008 and as of March 2013, roughly 

130,000. 

Other factors must also be considered when increasing voc rehab 

counselor staffing levels to meet the one to 125 ratio to include increasing their administrative and support staffs to keep pace with 

increased VR&E participation. This includes purchases, beneficiary 

payments, and infrastructure. 

Therefore, VA must request and Congress must approve sufficient resources to meet all the needs of the VR&E program. 

Second, voc rehab is truly one of the more transformative benefits available to wounded, injured, and ill veterans, and enables 

them to overcome their service-connected disabilities. The program 

provides essential tools and resources needed to give them a sense 

of fulfillment as contributory members to their families and communities. 

With such a powerful benefit, why limit the time frame in which 

a veteran can choose to use this benefit? In most cases, VR&E benVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:36 Jun 05, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\87-668.TXT PAT

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efits expire 12 years from the date of eligibility. This is what is 

commonly known as the use it or lose it period. We urge Congress 

to enact legislation that eliminates the 12-year limit to use this 

benefit. 

Third, much of the VR&E process is still paper based unlike compensation and pension. Veterans still lack the ability to file their 

voc rehab applications online as a paper application is still required. As VBA moves forward with their electronic processing, 

this will lead to confusion as to which method is required to make 

certain applications for benefits. 

Better IT systems also have the potential to increase overall efficiency, provide better accountability of the entire voc rehab program, could facilitate and enhance tracking capabilities of all services and procurements, provide ready access to data and include 

features that would allow for better voc rehab counselor performance tracking. 

At present, much of the information required to get a full accountability of the program has to be done by examining local 

VR&E folders and assembling data. It is vitally important that 

VBA request and Congress approve the resources needed to make 

these much needed IT enhancements to improve access, oversight, 

and accountability throughout the entirety of the VR&E program. 

Fourth, an often overlooked portion of the voc rehab program, 

independent living also requires proper resourcing. We reiterate 

our recommendations regarding this benefit as highlighted in our 

hearing in November 2013. We urge Congress to support legislation 

to remove the cap and eliminate the current restriction placed upon 

program participation. 

Mr. Chairman, vocational rehabilitation embodies DAV’s central 

purpose of empowering veterans to lead high-quality lives with respect and dignity. If we do not strengthen VR&E, it runs the risk 

of compromising that purpose. How can a wounded, injured, or ill 

veteran achieve such a fulfilling life when it takes months to even 

begin the program and is then adversely affected by staffing and 

resource limitations essential towards effective participation? 

In closing, Mr. Chairman, despite some of the management and 

oversight challenges discussed in our testimony and the GAO report, we continue to believe that voc rehab is a vital and transformative benefit, essential and empowering, that has and should 

continue to make a tremendous difference in the lives of thousands 

of veterans every year. 

DAV stands ready to work with the subcommittee and VA to 

offer our expertise, insight, and experience to enhance the program. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony and stand ready to 

answer any questions the committee may have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF PAUL VARELA APPEARS IN THE AP- PENDIX] 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Mr. Varela. 

And I thank the panel for their testimony. 

I now recognize myself for five minutes for questions. 

Mr. Bertoni, in your report, you mention that each regional office 

differs in how they monitor and how they distribute the caseloads 

to VR&E counselors. 


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What are your suggestions as to how the VA can improve management to ensure that there is consistency and appropriate workload management at all the VR&E locations which would help ensure better service to veterans? 

Mr. BERTONI. A couple things, but it is no surprise that the field 

offices have a lot of discretion to configure their staff and manage 

their caseload that cuts across many different lines of work in the 

regional offices. 

But in this case, we did see a lot of variation in terms of how 

they were organizing these modules to process cases. We have specialization versus generalization. There were clearly, you know, indications that there were advantages and disadvantages of each. 

But it was concerning to us and in our analysis, we found that 

those who work with multiple counselors tend to have a lower success rate. You know, if you had four counselors, you were 27 percent less likely to be successful in your rehab. 

So it just begs additional analysis. We have recommended that 

VA study some of these workload models, identify the advantages 

and disadvantages, and come up with some specific guidelines or 

best practices that they can share with the regions so they can 

apply those to their own operations to be more effective. 

Mr. FLORES. Uh-huh. 

Mr. BERTONI. The resource allocation model needs to be looked 

at. We have got staffing based on performance that can disadvantage lower performing offices. We have got workloads that are fairly substantial in some offices that are excluded, that are not giving 

proper credit. 

And that leads to FTE ceilings. And if you do not have the proper 

FTE ceilings regardless of the workload mix, you are going to have 

deterioration in service. 

So those two areas looking at how they are configured and factor 

that into your staffing allocation model to ensure that the appropriate staff are on the ground is important. And we have got two 

recommendations that should get them there. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. I want to dig into the weeds a little bit on 

this. Mr. Varela, I would like to follow-up with you because you 

had a recommendation as to caseload management. I think you 

said one to 125 was your or DAV’s recommendation. 

So, Mr. Bertoni, it seems to me like there is a difference in the 

degree of resources required for a rehab case versus an education 

case. 

Can you tell me, should there be different metrics for those, two, 

in terms of VA staff to caseload? 

Mr. BERTONI. VA is the expert here in terms of the—— 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. 

Mr. Bertoni [continuing]. Work credit measurement system. And 

I would say you are correct. If you looked at the work credit measurement system, different workloads receive different credit. I do 

not know if what they are getting for voc rehabilitation, developing 

a rehab plan is sufficient or not. I think it is something that the 

agency needs to look at to ensure that they are getting equitable 

or just credit for various workloads. 

Mr. FLORES. Mr. Varela, do you have any comments, any 

thoughts about that? 


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Mr. VARELA. Yes, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the workload credit, 

obviously there is an incentive to get a veteran to the completion 

of the program. 

Mr. FLORES. Sure. 

Mr. VARELA. And that is where they are going to give most of the 

credit. So there may be a precedence now that is not allowing 

VR&E to get the credit that they deserve for everything that they 

do. There is a lot of client contact that takes place. There is a lot 

of needs that have to be addressed. Circumstances are continually 

changing. There may have to be some coordination between VHA 

services—— 

Mr. FLORES. Yeah. 

Mr. VARELA [continuing]. And other outside entities. So all of 

that needs to be built in to determine how effective the program 

is. And if somebody does not complete the program, that may not 

be the fault of the voc rehab counselor themselves. And they would 

get dinged for that. You know, that would be a smudge on their 

record. But that does not mean that they did not work with that 

veteran for a year—— 

Mr. VARELA [continuing]. Two years or three years. And that 

credit should be recognized. 

Mr. FLORES. I am going to try to get in one more question in my 

remaining few seconds. This is for all of the panel, but, Ms. Ansley, 

let’s start with you. 

Can you tell us what your thoughts are for the C–WINRS Program? Try to keep it in about 20 seconds and tell me what you 

think the improvements should be, the IT system. 

Ms. ANSLEY. Thank you. 

We agree that we need better improvements that will help to 

track the metrics as people are moving through the system to know 

where people are at as they are tracking through and to be able 

to highlight some of these points as was mentioned by DAV as people step through the process, where are they at and are there ways 

to provide credit and to identify problems. 

So if people are noting that they are at a particular level, you 

are seeing a high level of problem, what can we do to go back and 

fix that. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. Mr. Varela, regarding C–WINRS, what are 

your thoughts about the system? 

Mr. VARELA. I know there are recommendations to enhance C– 

WINRS, but VA going forward, their major emphasis is VBMS. 

Mr. FLORES. Right. 

Mr. VARELA. Will C–WINRS be able to communicate with VBMS 

or will it continue to be a stand-alone platform? They obviously 

need to make those IT enhancements. Can C–WINRS be enhanced 

to the point where it gives us all the data that we are looking for? 

I do not have the answer to that question. That is really going to 

require some examination. 

Mr. FLORES. Well, thank you. 

Mr. Ranking Member, I am sorry I went over my time, but I recognize you for five minutes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Well, just consider this sort of my little birthday 

gift. I understand Tuesday was your birthday and happy birthday 

belatedly. 


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Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you for recognizing me. 

My first question goes to Mr. Varela and Ms. Ansley. How should 

the VA measure success or failure of the VR&E program? Do we 

have the right measures and the measures that would incentivize 

the right sort of actions? 

Ms. ANSLEY. I do think that we need to make sure that we are 

not just looking at a particular time in point which was mentioned 

about you are now rehabilitated. I think that it is a process that 

veterans are going to go through. 

So looking at the process as they are going through the stages 

to look for metrics there, but then also once you are considered rehabilitated, you have remained in employment, I would like to see 

some follow-up about what happens in out years. 

Does the veteran—are they able to remain in the workforce? Are 

there things that develop as they move through their work career? 

It is really more about—the ultimate outcome and metric for me 

is a veteran remaining an active, productive member of the workforce and then how you measure that really requires more of a longitudinal process. 

Mr. TAKANO. Great. Thank you. 

Mr. VARELA. Any metrics implemented going forward has to have 

the input of the participant. The veteran has to have the opportunity to say whether this is working or whether it is not working. 

And in our written testimony, we alluded to the new GI Bill complaint procedures that they have in place if you are having issues 

with a school or so on. You can go online and you can log these 

complaints. 

Veterans need to be part of that process. And there was a 2004 

task force that reviewed the VR&E program and that was one of 

the recommendations from that time was you need that individual’s input to determine if you are on the right course, what 

changes need to be made, and if that veteran feels that they are 

getting the services that they actually sought. 

Mr. TAKANO. Ms. Ansley, I want to return back to your suggestion that we look at the process. Can you give me some idea of 

what additional measures you would do so we do not just look at 

a simple outcome? 

Ms. ANSLEY. Well, we certainly do need to when we are checking 

the process connect with that veteran and see if they got what they 

needed to actually return to the workforce. 

And so being able, I think, to do surveys and outcomes of the veteran, what he or she was looking for in the process, did they remain employed, if so, were the VR&E services helpful to them, I 

think, are some key measures that we need to be connected with. 

It is always difficult to look at, you know, metrics that come out 

from a program as you are going through the steps and then how 

did that really implement in someone’s life as they are now taking 

that process and moving forward? 

I would also suggest that there may be other programs that 

could be looked at within VR&E and vocational rehabilitation, you 

know, other systems that exist that might provide some guidance 

on standards. 

Mr. TAKANO. Great. Thank you. 


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Mr. Varela, can you explain in more detail why it is so important 

to lift or at least extend the eligibility period for VR&E? 

Mr. VARELA. Yes, Congressman. A veteran’s situation is likely 

going to change over time. What was true today may not be true 

12 years from now. And a veteran’s service-connected disability is 

going to play a big part in that. 

The conditions may change, get worse. There may be new disabilities that are identified. And so this veteran that had the time 

frame—may not have had the time to use it during that 12-year 

period. They may not have needed it during that 12-year period. 

Now fast forward 13, 14 years when their circumstances have 

changed and they come to Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment and say I would like to utilize this program. If they had not 

met that 12-year requirement, they could be denied. 

Now, there are ways around that, but that requires additional 

administrative review. They have to determine if a serious employment handicap exists. It should be open-ended. And when the need 

arises, they should be able to use it. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, I stopped right on the clock. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. You are very good. Thank you. 

By the way, I just want to comment on the extension of the time 

period. As you know, your bill was incorporated with H.R. 357, 

which passed a couple of weeks ago, which extended the time period from 12 years to 17 years. 

So the ranking member has been a champion of this and we have 

had some progress in the House. And hopefully our friends on the 

north side of the campus will take that up soon. 

Ms. Brownley, you are recognized for five minutes for questions. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Appreciate it. 

I had a question, I think, directed to Mr. Varela and perhaps Ms. 

Ansley as well. 

I want to thank all of you first for your continued work and service on behalf of our Nation’s veterans. 

In the testimony of the Paralyzed Veterans of America and their 

written testimony, they expressed some concern about the independent living program and it certainly has come up in my district 

in California in Ventura County. 

They state in their testimony that although the program has 

proven to benefit disabled veterans during their rehabilitation, existing legislation continues to limit or cap the yearly enrollment. 

More than a decade of combat has produced many veterans that 

could benefit from assistance from the independent living option. 

Congress should remove the cap of 2,700 per year for independent 

living enrollment and vocational rehabilitation. Counselors should 

be trained and encouraged to recommend the IL program when it 

could benefit a veteran’s rehabilitation. 

So that is what they stated in their testimony. Certainly in my 

district, we have veterans that are calling our office pretty routinely who have been unable to attain services within the independent living program because of the cap and even probably more 

importantly in the 12-year statutory limit on veterans for attaining 

VR&E benefits. 


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So I was just wondering if either one of you could comment on 

where you stand on that and do you believe the 12-year limit is a 

problem. Do you believe the cap on enrollees for independent living, 

the independent living program is a challenge? 

Ms. ANSLEY. We would certainly align ourselves with our friends 

from PVA in their comments on the independent living program. 

It is a program designed to assist those veterans that are in the 

most need of benefits and it seems to us as though if someone is 

meeting that need, why would we limit it based on an arbitrary 

cap, that, you know, these are the veterans that are most in need 

of service. And if you meet that need, that service should be there. 

So we would support the independent living program being available as needed to veterans and also the 12-year delimiting period 

we would say, you know, again, if the services are needed, a veteran’s circumstances may change, you know, we would not want to 

limit access to something that is going to help someone rehabilitate, return to the workforce, and be a productive member of their 

community. 

Mr. VARELA. Congresswoman, there are two parts to that, so I 

will take the 12-year period first. 

Obviously we would like to see the cap removed. I think this also 

would free up some VR&E resources as well. For those veterans 

that come in after the 12-year period and then have to prove to a 

voc rehab counselor that they have a serious employment handicap, 

that is one less administrative procedure that they would have to 

undertake. 

Again, the 12-year period, these disabilities are not going to last 

for just 12 years. You know, these are disabilities that are going 

to be ongoing for the rest of their lives. So why limit access to that 

benefit for 12 years? Their disabilities do not have a 12-year shelf 

life nor should the benefit. 

The independent living program, again, there should not be an 

arbitrary cap. It should be open to all veterans that need it. It is 

one of the more intricate tracks in the voc rehab program. As I 

mentioned in my oral remarks that VR&E services require a 

hands-on approach with their participants. It is even more so with 

those in the independent living program. 

So that would be more time consuming as well. So you may want 

to look at whether VR&E stations require independent living specialists if we remove that cap more people enter the program. 

I would also like to commend this committee and the VA for your 

oversight and the VA VR&E program because they have just instituted, I think it is a 14-hour training program on independent living services. So there are VR&E counselors who will have what 

looks like an in-depth training on the independent living program. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you. 

My time is about to run out, but I just am wondering if either 

one of you have any data at all with regards to this in terms of 

veterans who need this program and are not able to have access 

to it. Just yes or no and if you do, I can follow-up with you later. 

Mr. VARELA. No, we do not have that data on hand at present. 

Ms. ANSLEY. No, we do not have that data. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you. 

And I will yield back. 


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Mr. BERTONI. We just issued a report a couple months back on 

sort of the numbers around the program, so we can get you that. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. That would be great. Thank you. 

Mr. FLORES. I want to thank the first panel for their testimony 

and I appreciate your efforts on behalf of our Nation’s veterans. 

You are now excused. 

I now invite our second and final panel for the day to come to 

the witness table. On our second panel, we have Mr. Jack 

Kammerer, who is the new director of Vocational Rehabilitation 

and Employment Service at VA. 

Before he came to the VA, Mr. Kammerer had a long and distinguished career in the U.S. Army and I was pleased to learn yesterday that he served with my friend from Texas, Mr. Guerin. 

Thank you for your service to our country, Mr. Kammerer, and 

you are welcome to the subcommittee. You are now recognized for 

five minutes for your testimony. I realize I called you up here in 

a hurry, so take your time to get ready. 

STATEMENT OF JACK KAMMERER 

Mr. KAMMERER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Takano, subcommittee Members, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the Department of 

Veterans Affairs’ Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment program. 

In my brief tenure as VRE director, I have already seen how the 

VRE team is engaged in multiple initiatives which will result in 

better support for veterans. 

Through VetSuccess on Campus, we have collaborated with 94 

schools across the country to provide additional education and vocational counseling and other services to over 80,000 veteran students. 

We also collaborate with the Department of Defense to provide 

assistance to servicemembers through the Integrated Disability 

Evaluation System and we have expanded counseling and other 

services for over 28,000 transitioning servicemembers. 

We continue to work with federal, state, and local government 

agencies and private sector employers to increase veteran employment opportunities. VRE Service is currently developing new performance metrics to more effectively evaluate the full scope of VRE 

work activities at the local, regional, and national levels. VRE is 

also partnering with the Veterans Health Administration to develop video tele-counseling. 

The VRE program assists servicemembers and veterans with 

service-connected disabilities to prepare for, find, and keep suitable 

employment. For veterans with service-connected disabilities so severe they are unable to work, the independent living program or 

IL offers services to improve their ability to live independently. 

The VRE program also provides education and career counseling 

to transitioning servicemembers and veterans eligible for VA educational benefits and dependents of veterans who have permanent 

and total service-connected disabilities as authorized under Title 

38, Chapter 36. 

VRE has nearly a thousand professional vocational rehabilitation 

counselors and delivers service through a network of 420 office loVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:36 Jun 05, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\87-668.TXT PAT

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cations. Our service delivery model supports veterans where they 

are located with operations at 56 regional offices, 198 out-based offices, 71 IDES installations, and 94 VSOC sites. 

In fiscal year 2013, VRE successfully rehabilitated over 10,000 

veterans with service-connected disabilities with over 8,500 of those 

rehabilitated to suitable employment and the balance veterans 

whose rehabilitation gave them greater independence through IL 

services. 

VRE had a 14 percent increase in applicants in fiscal year 2013. 

We are completing data validation for fiscal year 2013 and we believe we have supported over 130,000 veterans with Chapter 31 

services. 

The Corporate WINRS system is the VRE case management application. C–WINRS records the application and adjudication of 

VRE claims, rehabilitation planning services, and disposition of 

cases. 

The current C–WINRS enhancements focus on developing a subsistence allowance module to eliminate VRE’s reliance on the legacy BDN system and move to payment through the corporate financial accounting system (FAS). The new FAS corporate module 

is being beta tested in eight regional offices. We are finalizing development for national deployment. 

VRE has also built requirements for a new case management 

system that will expand in the functionality of the VBMS system. 

GAO made six recommendations in its January 2014 report on 

VR&E. The first recommendation suggested revisions of national 

and regional performance measures for the VRE program. We are 

currently engaged in redesigning local, regional, and national performance measures to include a range of broader spectrum performance data to more effectively evaluate program success. 

The second recommendation from GAO was to develop new 

measures of long-term employment to go beyond the minimum 60 

days of post placement monitoring. VRE provides comprehensive 

counseling, training, and rehabilitative services to remove employment barriers that challenge veterans in obtaining and maintaining suitable employment. VRE works with participants over a 

multi-year period with training and education and up to 18 months 

of employment services. VRE counselors use judgment in determining when veterans have adequately adjusted to their employment and in certain circumstances will follow veterans beyond the 

60 days. 

VRE is exploring different ways to follow-up with employed veterans after their formal departure from VR&E. A post outcome 

case management tool is now in development. 

GAO’s third recommendation was to conduct non-response analysis of the results of VA’s ongoing Voice of the Veteran surveys. 

While VA’s current Voice of the Veteran program does not include 

non-response bias analysis, the survey findings are statistically 

valid. Contingent on resource availability, VBA will modify the survey contract to include non-response analysis of the results. 

GAO’s fourth recommendation focuses on VA’s allocation of VRE 

staff among the regional offices. VR&E Service works closely with 

VBA’s Office of Field Operations in determining resource allocations. VRE Service is designing a staffing model to account for reVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:36 Jun 05, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\87-668.TXT PAT

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gional factors and with the Office of Field Operations will revisit 

the metrics used in the resource allocation model. 

The fifth recommendation from GAO was to collect information 

on the regional offices’ approaches for managing the VRE workloads, assess the advantages and disadvantages, and use the results of this assessment to provide guidance to the offices on best 

practices. 

VRE Service allows managers to decide how best to manage their 

workloads but agrees that there is merit in analyzing data and 

communicating best practice. 

The final recommendation was to provide additional training. 

The VRE Service has provided multiple training activities and curriculums on job placement and job accommodations and we will 

continue to develop and deploy additional training products. 

Mr. Chairman, VRE Service will continue to assess and improve 

vocational rehabilitation services to servicemembers and veterans 

who have incurred a service-connected disability and we will continue to focus on enhancing both our service delivery and the actual services we provide. 

This concludes my statement and I would be pleased to answer 

the questions from the subcommittee. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF JACK KAMMERER APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Mr. Kammerer. I appreciate your testimony, and I guess you have been drinking from a fire hose the last 

few weeks as you get your arms around this. 

I know that you agree with me and I think you indicated this in 

your testimony that there is a need to improve the C–WINRS program or to create some other IT tool to better track the cost of participants. 

You mentioned in your testimony that VR&E has built a set of 

requirements for a new case management system that will expand 

the functionality of the veterans benefits management system or 

the VBMS as it is more commonly called to better support the 

VR&E program. 

Based on what you have learned so far, when do you expect that 

these requirements will be funded and once they are funded, how 

long will it take for the final product to be delivered and implemented? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Thank you for your question, Mr. Chairman. 

As I mentioned in my written statement and my oral statement, 

currently we have completed the development of business requirements for the next generation of a case management system. 

At the same time, Mr. Chairman, we are improving the 

functionality of our current C–WINRS system to include a focus on 

the back end, the business side of it. And as I mentioned, we are 

piloting the subsistence allowance module. 

The budget works in cycles. As you know, previous to the release 

of the President’s budget and the upcoming oversight committee 

hearings, I could not give you any specifics on funding specifically, 

but I look forward to keeping the committee informed on the 

progress of our new system. 


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We are currently validating the requirements that we developed 

for the new system with our other business lines within VBA and 

VA and we will certainly keep you informed of progress. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. That would be good. 

The President’s budget will be delivered on Monday, the 4th, I 

believe. So I am hoping you will follow-up with us and let us know 

what the ranking is of these C–WINRS program and the VR&E IT 

resources following the release of that budget. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. FLORES. I am sorry. Go ahead. Okay. 

The GAO report and the VSOs that were testifying here today 

have shown that they are concerned about the tracking, the 60-day 

tracking system that the VA currently has in place to track successful rehabilitation. 

According to the GAO’s report, the VA commented that it found 

little to be gained from directing limited resources to implementing 

and executing additional post placement measures. 

You know, the ultimate goal, you and I both share this, the ultimate goal of VR&E is the long-term employment and rehabilitation 

of our veterans. 

And so I was going to ask you why does the VA find it important 

to not extend that 60-day mark to truly support these veterans 

over the longer term. 

We did also do a check a bit ago to make sure that these limits 

were not built in the statutes or not. So the VA has the flexibility 

to change this if it elected to do so. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I understand your question. It is an important question. 

As GAO mentioned in their report on our programs, Mr. Chairman, we are seeing veterans in our programs for an extended period of time. As you know, veterans have the 48-month training period for training and education as we in many cases train and educate them for future employment. And then we have the 18 months 

of employment services. 

And as you mentioned, sir, the 60-day period is to stabilize a particular veteran in employment and then once that stabilization is 

complete, then we would in a dialogue with the veteran say that 

employment and rehabilitation is complete. 

The challenge, Mr. Chairman, with that six-year or extended period of time is, I think we are sensitive to further extending the 

period of time and the formal relationship between the counselor 

and the veteran. 

As I mentioned in my oral and written statement, we are looking 

at a post outcome case management tool to try to be able to measure beyond that 60-day period. And I look forward to looking at 

other ways to measure that as well. As. you know, Mr. Chairman, 

the congressionally directed long-term study is measuring three cohorts over a 20-year period. So we look forward to benefitting from 

that as well. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. Again, I realize you are new at the job, but 

if I were in your shoes, I would consider trying to extend that a 

little bit. And it could be something as simple as 120 days out, 180 

days out, a phone call to the veteran saying how are you doing, you 


VACREP180 with DISTILLER
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still employed, things like that. So, again, we are not talking about 

a giant resource sink here, I do not believe. 

One last question. Have the VA’s voc rehab counselors participated in the VA all employee survey and, if so, what were the results of the survey? 

Mr. KAMMERER. I do not know the answer to that question, Mr. 

Chairman. I would have to take that for the record and get back 

to you. 

Mr. FLORES. Okay. That will be great. 

I now recognize the ranking member for his questions. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, Mr. Kammerer, for your service to our country. 

Mr. Kammerer, can you tell me, are VR&E counselors trained on 

how to assist both the veterans with physical wounds and those 

with mental health issues or does the training treat these type of 

disabilities as the same, so—— 

Mr. KAMMERER. If I understood your question, Mr. Takano, it is 

our counselors, are they trained on both physical and mental 

health aspects of the veteran’s rehabilitation? 

Mr. TAKANO. Right. Or do they have the capacity to do both? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, sir, that is a great question. Thank you for 

that question. 

As you know, Mr. Takano, Mr. Ranking Member, our vocational 

rehabilitation counselors have master’s degrees in counseling and 

they have extensive training and in many cases extensive. 

I just visited a regional office. In fact, I met one of the counselors 

who had worked at the state level, had worked with a couple of our 

nonprofit partners and was now working with the VA. 

But to specifically answer your question, they are trained and 

able to assist veterans both with physical needs and on the mental 

health side. We certainly, in many and most cases defer to the 

mental health and the clinical experts. So in many cases, our counselors would make the appropriate referrals to assist those veterans with formal mental health services on the clinical side with 

VHA, or another agency. The Veterans Health Administration. 

We have recently developed some mental health training that we 

are working on for our VRE workforce, sir, to better assist them 

with identifying and doing the proper referrals on mental health. 

So, again, sir, we assist veterans with their rehabilitative needs 

and that is true on the physical side, too. I would say that we in 

many cases, as you know, make referrals to the proper physical rehabilitation means in many cases through VHA again. 

Mr. TAKANO. But I think I heard from the GAO representative 

before that part of the retention problem is the inability to address 

some of these mental health issues of the veterans in the program; 

is that correct? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Absolutely. And it is a very critical aspect of a 

veteran’s rehabilitation. I think the other thing I would say is, as 

I mentioned in my statements, in my written and my oral statements, sir, that we also have VetSuccess on campus counselors who 

are also vocational rehabilitation counselors. 

We have been partnering with VHA in their VITAL program 

which provides mental health assistance to veterans on campus in 

some cases based on their availability. So it is, as mentioned in the 


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statements and in the GAO report, it is a critical aspect of the veteran’s rehabilitation. 

I just want to be careful that I say that we make the proper referrals, but we certainly deal with and recognize and support the 

mental health aspects of a veteran’s rehabilitation. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you. 

Is the VR&E program prepared for the influx of veterans that 

will result from the anticipated drawn down of our troops? What 

does the program need to ensure it is prepared to assist these 

transitioning servicemembers? 

Mr. KAMMERER. As I mentioned in my statements, we do provide 

support to transitioning servicemembers. In some cases, as you 

know, they would become Chapter 31 clients. And if they are eligible and entitled, we would facilitate their assistance through the 

Chapter 31 services that we have spoken about. 

Also, we provide the Chapter 36 education and employment 

counseling which is very important for many servicemembers. So 

we are working on our outreach for the Chapter 36 counseling services to make sure that we reach the right veterans. 

And as I mentioned also, we have approximately 200 on military 

installations, Vocational rehabilitation counselors, helping in IDES 

and other tasks. 

Mr. TAKANO. But, I mean, do you have any projections as to if 

there is going to be any increase in the numbers of servicemembers 

needing the VR&E program because of the anticipated draw down 

and are you prepared—— 

Mr. KAMMERER. That is a great question, too, and I am sorry if 

I did not directly—— 

Mr. TAKANO. That was my—— 

Mr. KAMMERER [continuing]. If I misunderstood your question. I 

think as the chairman mentioned in his opening statement, as we 

continue to see a reduction, as the backlog goes down and we continue to see adjudicated claims, we would expect to see an increase 

in applications for VRE services under Chapter 31 to include in 

some cases from transitioning servicemembers. 

My boss, Deputy Under Secretary Curt Coy, has given me three 

specific tasks as the new VRE director. He has told me to understand the current and the future population to include 

transitioning servicemembers. He has told me, as we heard in the 

GAO report, to make sure we get the right performance metrics. 

And, sir, he has told me to make sure that we get the right service 

delivery and service delivery models. 

So as part of your question about transitioning servicemembers, 

I am working very hard right now to understand the future population, as we have more adjudicated claims, make sure that we are 

prepared in the places we are and the places we need to be to support those transitioning servicemembers and veterans. 

Mr. TAKANO. All right. Thank you so much. 

Mr. FLORES. Ms. Brownley, you are recognized for five minutes. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thanks, Mr. Chair. 

Thank you, Mr. Kammerer. 

I wanted to continue sort of my line of questioning on the independent living program. And I am just wondering, because my veterans are having issues with it in my district, and I am just wonVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:36 Jun 05, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\87-668.TXT PAT

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dering if you have any data on, you know, how many veterans applied in 2013 for the program and has the VA ever considered lifting the cap and have you done any kind of cost analysis on, you 

know, what it would cost if we did eliminate the cap? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, ma’am. Thank you for your question. 

I would have to get back to you for the record on the exact number of veterans that were rehabilitated through independent living 

in 2013. I would say it is approximately two and a half percent of 

the workload. Total rehabilitations which as I mentioned in my 

statement was over 10,000. But I will get you the exact number for 

the record. 

I am not able to talk about pending legislation outside the views 

process. I know Ms. Devlin, the former acting director of the VRE 

program, as mentioned earlier, did testify extensively in November 

about the IL program. So I have no specific comments beyond Ms. 

Devlin’s testimony about the cap because I know that was previously addressed. 

And if you need additional information, ma’am, I would be happy 

to get back to you on the record on that as well. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Well, that would be great. I would like to followup on that. 

And, I mean, just in your position with the VA, are you hearing 

about this particular program and—— 

Mr. KAMMERER. No. I am certainly happy to comment on that. 

I did not mean to not more specifically answer your question. I just 

did not want to provide specific—— 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Correct. I understand. 

Mr. KAMMERER. [continuing]. Numbers without having those—— 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. 

Mr. KAMMERER [continuing]. Right at my fingertips. I think generally speaking that we have been, as I understand, right below the 

cap for the past several years. And so we have not currently had 

an issue with the cap. I think several years ago, we were close and 

we did some outreach several years ago. 

So it certainly, as you mentioned, ma’am, and in my experience, 

in my brief experience in this position, it is a very critical aspect 

of what we do because if—and particularly with older veterans or 

veterans with very difficult challenges, physical and otherwise, 

while it is a very small population, most of those veterans, as you 

well know, to qualify for that program have to have a serious employment handicap and not be able to seek and maintain employment. 

So what we want to do for them is to restore their activities of 

daily living. So anywhere providing them work to help them with 

modifications to their home and visiting their home and helping 

them with their rehabilitation is very, very critical, as I mentioned, 

again, for a very small but important population of veterans. And 

hopefully some of them at some point would be able to return to 

employment opportunities. 

So I look forward to working with you and the subcommittee and 

GAO and others to make sure that we continue to strengthen that 

program. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Likewise. And I think for our vets in Ventura 

County in California, it is the 12-year statutory limitation that is 


VACREP180 with DISTILLER
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the—it is the bigger issue because they are older vets and, you 

know, because of the 12-year limitation, they have exceeded and do 

not have access to the program for that. So that is another area 

that I would like us to look into. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes, ma’am. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you very much. 

I yield back. 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Ms. Brownley. 

Mrs. Kirkpatrick, you are recognized for five minutes for questions. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You have a challenging job and I appreciate the good work you 

are doing. I just want to talk a little bit about the jobs portion of 

that. 

I recently took a combined Armed Service Veterans’ and Affairs 

Committee trip to some military bases overseas. And my role in 

that was talking with active-duty members who are going to transition out of the military very soon and how we can have a seamless 

transfer when they become veterans. 

And the two most frequent questions I got from service members 

was how am I going to find a job? What kind of job am I going to 

have? So I am interested in your Title 36 counseling that you start 

with active duty. 

At what point do you start reaching out to those members who 

are going to transfer out? 

Mr. KAMMERER. Thank you, ma’am, for that question. And as you 

mentioned, it is a very important discussion. It is a very important 

question. 

I think the first answer I would provide is through the revised 

Transition Assistance Program, we do have content that describes 

our programs and services. And we are, as I mentioned in a response to Mr. Takano, we are working to be as aggressive as possible to reach out to transitioning servicemembers to provide them 

information on Chapter 36. 

If I could answer your specific concern about jobs as well, the one 

thing that is critical with the VRE programs and services is in 

many and most cases and as I was discussing with Ms. Brownley 

about the IL, in most of our veteran clients, we are interested in 

making sure that we achieve an employment outcome for them. 

If we help them participate in an educational or training program, at the end of the experience, we want to be able to help them 

gain and maintain the right employment for them based on their 

knowledge, their abilities, their military experiences. So that is absolutely critical. 

I would say I visited an RO recently and we have an employment 

coordinator in the VRE program, in the RO, and I discussed with 

him—— 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. And may I just interrupt because—— 

Mr. KAMMERER. Yes. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK [continuing]. My time is running out? What I 

really want to know are they present on the military bases and do 

they make contact with active duty service members? 

Mr. KAMMERER. I am sorry I did not—— 


VACREP180 with DISTILLER
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Mrs. KIRKPATRICK [continuing]. Is there contact a year out or 

eight months out? 

Mr. KAMMERER. And I should have more specifically addressed 

that. We do have the 200 IDES counselors that are physically on 

military installations and they are vocational rehab counselors that 

have the master’s degree in counseling. 

And we do provide that content that I mentioned in the transition program. And we also have other contract and other counselors that support transitioning servicemembers that sign up for 

the Chapter 36 services. So we reach them when they are going 

through their transition. We make our content available through 

social media. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. So that could be just within the last week of 

their being in active duty, right? That is my concern. 

Mr. KAMMERER. Oh, I understand your question. Yes. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. And, actually, if the contact does not happen 

until they start the transition process, that only leaves a week or 

so, right? 

Mr. KAMMERER. I think the military services, ma’am, and the revised TAP program are working to reach servicemembers earlier in 

their transition. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. That would be my request based on my conversation with service members. 

Mr. KAMMERER. And I would not want to speak for the DoD side. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. Right. 

Mr. KAMMERER. But I know on the transition activities, the VA 

supports that we are connecting with servicemembers earlier either 

through e-benefits or in the TAP program. And I think your concern is are we reaching and providing information to 

servicemembers as early as possible. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. Right. 

Mr. KAMMERER. And I will make sure that I continue to work towards that working with DoD and—— 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. Thank you. 

Mr. KAMMERER [continuing]. Making sure that we do that. 

Mrs. KIRKPATRICK. I think that is really important. Thank you 

very much. 

I yield back. 

Mr. FLORES. Thank you, Ms. Kirkpatrick. 

And, Mr. Kammerer, I appreciate your testimony today. And, 

again, I appreciate your service to our country and to our veterans. 

You are now excused. 

I thank everyone for their attendance today and this frank discussion on how to improve this important program for our Nation’s 

veterans. 

Finally, I ask unanimous consent that all Members have five legislative to revise and extend their remarks and to include any extraneous material in the record of today’s hearing. Hearing no objection, so ordered. 

If there is nothing further, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 11:03 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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Prepared Statement of Jack Kammerer 

Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to 

appear before you today to discuss the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment (VR&E) program. As I near the end of the 

first 90 days as the Director of VR&E Service, I have already seen how VR&E staff 

in Washington DC, and VR&E staff in the field offices are committed to and engaged in multiple initiatives to extend our outreach capabilities, increase program 

efficiencies, and enhance our current technologies, all of which will result in better 

support for Veterans. 

Through our VetSuccess on Campus (VSOC) program, we have collaborated with 

94 schools across the country to provide educational and vocational counseling and 

other on-site services to over 80,000 Veteran students. Under the VSOC program, 

Veterans have the opportunity to succeed through coordinated delivery of on-campus 

benefits assistance and adjustment counseling to assist Veterans in completing their 

college education and entering the labor market in viable careers. We also collaborate with the Department of Defense to provide services to Active Duty, Reserve, 

and National Guard Servicemembers through the Integrated Disability Evaluation 

System (IDES). Through our involvement in the IDES program, we have expanded 

early intervention counseling and other available services for over 28,000 

transitioning Servicemembers at 71 military installations. 

We also continue to work with Federal, state, and local government agencies, as 

well as private-sector employers, to increase Veteran employment utilizing special 

employer incentives, special hiring authorities, on-the-job training, and non-paid 

work experience for those Veterans in our program. VR&E Service is currently developing new program performance metrics that will more effectively evaluate the 

full scope of VR&E work activities at the local, regional, and national levels. VR&E 

Service is partnering with the Veterans Health Administration (VHA) to develop 

video telecounseling for nationwide implementation. VR&E intends to use the same, 

secure technology currently in use in VHA’s telehealth initiative. 

My testimony today will provide an overview of the VR&E program, performance 

summary, discussion of VR&E’s case-management information technology system, 

and information on actions taken to implement the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) recommendations for the VR&E program provided in its January 2014 

report. 

VR&E Program Overview 

The Veterans Benefits Administration’s (VBA) VR&E program assists 

Servicemembers and Veterans with service-connected disabilities to prepare for, 

find, and keep suitable employment. For Veterans with service-connected disabilities 

so severe that they cannot immediately consider employment, the independent living (IL) program offers services to improve their ability to live as independently as 

possible. 

The VR&E program also provides educational/career counseling to transitioning 

Servicemembers and Veterans that are eligible for VA educational benefits, and 

children, widows, and spouses of Veterans who have permanent and total serviceconnected disabilities, as authorized under Title 38, United States Code, Chapter 

36. Additionally, VR&E provides vocational and rehabilitation benefits to children 

born with spina bifida for certain Veterans with service in Vietnam or Korea. VR&E 

employs nearly 1,000 professional vocational rehabilitation counselors and delivers 

services through a network of 420 office locations. Our service delivery model works 

to support Veterans where they are located, and includes operations at 56 regional 

offices, the National Capital Region Benefits Office, 198 VR&E out-based offices, 71 

IDES installations, and 94 VSOC schools/sites. 

VR&E Program Data 

In fiscal year (FY) 2013, VR&E successfully rehabilitated over 10,000 Veterans 

with service-connected disabilities. Over 8,500 were rehabilitated into suitable employment, a 6.6 percent increase from FY 2012. The remaining were Veterans with 

disabilities so severe that they could not currently pursue employment, but were rehabilitated after they were able to gain greater independence through the delivery 

of IL services. VR&E also had a 14.2 percent increase in applicants in FY 2013, rising from over 72,000 to almost 83,000, demonstrating that our outreach efforts are 

reaching Servicemembers and Veterans in need of assistance. 

Information Technology 

Corporate WINRS (CWINRS) is the VR&E case-management software application 

(named after the stations that collaborated to develop the original version: 


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Waco, Indianapolis, Newark, Roanoke, and Seattle). CWINRS is used to record 

the adjudication of VR&E claims, rehabilitation planning, provision of services, and 

the disposition of cases. CWINRS tracks a Veteran’s rehabilitation progress through 

the VR&E program. This includes establishing the Veteran’s entitlement to benefits, 

tracking appointments, and forwarding transactions to the financial management 

systems for vendor payments. CWINRS utilizes VBA’s corporate database to maintain participant information, and interfaces with VBA’s Benefits Delivery Network 

(BDN) and other financial systems to process payment and accounting transactions. 

Case-specific information for participants in all five rehabilitation tracks available 

through the VR&E program (re-employment, rapid access to employment, employment through long-term services, self-employment, and independent living) is managed through the CWINRS application. 

Current CWINRS enhancements focus on developing a subsistence allowance 

module, which will eliminate VR&E’s reliance on the legacy BDN system and move 

towards payment through the corporate Financial Accounting System (FAS). The 

new FAS corporate payment module is being beta tested in eight regional offices, 

and is currently successfully making subsistence payments to more than 350 Veteran participants in the VR&E program. VR&E Service is finalizing development of 

this module to enable national deployment. 

VR&E Service has also partnered with VHA to develop and pilot an online medical referral tracking system. This system promotes communication between VR&E 

and VHA and improves the coordination of services to Veterans. The new system 

was recently piloted at nine sites. We are analyzing data to help us develop a future 

deployment plan. 

VR&E has also built requirements for a new case-management system that will 

expand upon the functionality in the Veterans Benefits Management System to support the VR&E program, including our VSOC and IDES programs. 

Update on Implementation of GAO Recommendations 

GAO made six recommendations in its January 2014 report titled, ‘‘VA Vocational 

Rehabilitation and Employment: Further Performance and Workload Management 

Improvements are Needed.’’ First, GAO recommended that ‘‘any revised set of national and regional performance measures for the VR&E program include measures 

of (a) the proportion of program participants successfully rehabilitated into employment, and (b) the proportion of participants who obtain other benefits from VR&E 

services.’’ As described earlier, VR&E is currently engaged in redesigning local, regional, and national performance measures that will include collection of a broader 

spectrum of performance data to more effectively evaluate program success. As a 

part of the redesign process, VR&E is investigating all viable options for capturing 

and reporting on not just positive program outcomes, but also on the outcomes of 

all program participants. Some measures may most appropriately be gathered at the 

national level, but all measures will be designed to align with each other and support effective oversight of the entire program. 

GAO’s second recommendation was to ‘‘develop new measures of long-term employment that go beyond the minimum 60 days of post-placement monitoring that 

is currently required. In developing measures, consider the feasibility of using results from planned post-closure surveys of Veterans as a data source.’’ VR&E provides comprehensive counseling, as well as training and rehabilitative services, to 

remove employment barriers that challenge a program participant’s ability to both 

obtain and maintain suitable employment. Unlike many other vocational rehabilitation and training programs, VR&E has the opportunity to work with participants 

over a multi-year period, including providing training and education, and up to 18 

months of employment services focused on ensuring employment readiness and outcomes. Additionally, VR&E counselors use professional judgment in determining 

when Veterans have adequately adjusted to their employment positions and, in certain circumstances, will follow Veterans beyond the 60-day minimum post-employment period. Currently, VR&E is exploring different mechanisms and processes to 

follow up with employed Veterans after their formal departure from the VR&E program. A post-outcome case management tool is in development that will facilitate 

VR&E follow up with Veterans months after case closure to determine if additional 

services are needed to maintain employment or to sustain maximum independence 

in daily living. VR&E’s ongoing Longitudinal Study is currently tracking three cohorts of Veterans (2010, 2012, 2014) over a 20-year period, and it will provide data 

to assess the long-term success of participation in the program and post-service outcomes. 

GAO’s third recommendation was to ‘‘conduct nonresponse analysis of the results 

of VA’s ongoing Voice of the Veteran customer satisfaction surveys.’’ While VA’s current Voice of the Veteran Continuous Measurement Satisfaction Research Program 


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does not currently include non-response bias analyses, the survey findings are statistically valid. However, contingent on resource availability, VBA will modify the 

survey contract to include non-response analyses of the results. 

Fourth, GAO recommended that VA, ‘‘in revisiting VA’s formula for allocating 

VR&E staff among the regional offices, (a) assess the inclusion of factors related to 

regional office performance and, if warranted, remove them from the formula, and 

(b) assess the exclusion of any factor related to the number of educational counseling cases in each regional office and, if warranted, add such a factor.’’ VR&E 

Service works closely with VBA’s Office of Field Operations in determining how resources are allocated. VR&E Service is designing the staffing model to account for 

regional factors impacting performance, and together with the Office of Field Operations, we will revisit the metrics used in the resource allocation model to ensure 

continued validity and data integrity. 

GAO’s fifth recommendation was to ‘‘collect information on the regional offices’ approaches for managing their VR&E workloads, assess the advantages and disadvantages of these approaches, and use the results of this assessment to provide guidance to the offices on potential best practices or options to consider.’’ VR&E Service 

allows local managers to decide how best to manage their workloads, but agrees 

that there is merit in collecting and analyzing data and communicating best practices on workload management. 

GAO’s final recommendation was ‘‘to provide additional training to all individual 

Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors (VRCs) on job placement strategies and workplace accommodations, potentially as part of the effort to develop a competencybased training approach.’’ VR&E Service has provided multiple training activities 

and curriculums focused on job placement and job accommodations. VR&E conducted Employment Coordinator classroom training in 2012 and deployed Training 

and Performance Support System modules on Employment Services in June 2013 

and Self-Employment in July 2013. VR&E Service also provided field offices with 

training modules on posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), traumatic brain injury 

(TBI), and employment training on November 29, 2013. The training includes information about job accommodations for Veterans with TBI and PTSD, and answers 

common questions regarding the Americans with Disabilities Act as it pertains to 

TBI and PTSD. Additionally, training on special employer incentives was released 

on January 29, 2014, and is accessible nationwide to all VR&E staff. 

VR&E’s Electronic Performance Support System (EPSS) has a section that offers 

essential guidance to VR&E employees on employment and job accommodations. 

EPSS is a portal designed to assist local VRCs in performing the essential functions 

of their job, to include employment-related duties. The employment section of EPSS 

offers assistance on procedures for identifying Veterans’ job-accommodation needs, 

provides training to counselors to help them work with Veterans on their ability to 

overcome challenges in obtaining and maintaining employment, and provides VR&E 

employees appropriate intervention and monitoring strategies to help Veterans adjust to their new position and the workforce. These job aids are updated continuously based on feedback or changes in law, regulation, and VR&E Service policies. 

Efforts are currently underway to update and convert existing training materials 

into web-based training on job accommodations and employment service delivery to 

better serve VR&E employees and Veterans. 

Concluding Remarks 

VR&E Service will continue to assess and improve the delivery of vocational rehabilitation services to a most deserving active military and Veteran population: those 

men and women who have incurred a service-connected disability. We have developed and fielded comprehensive and detailed training, conducted significant oversight, and continue to focus on efforts to enhance both service delivery and the actual services we provide. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be pleased to answer questions from you or any of the other members of the Subcommittee. 

f 

Statement For The Record 

PARALYZED VETERANS OF AMERICA 

Chairman Flores, Ranking Member Takano, and members of the Subcommittee, 

Paralyzed Veterans of America (PVA), thanks you for the opportunity to submit our 

views pertaining to the VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment (VR&E) 

program. PVA appreciates the fact that you are reviewing this program that is inVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:36 Jun 05, 2015 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6621 Sfmt 6621 Y:\87-668.TXT PAT

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tended to help those veterans that sustained disabilities as a result of their military 

service that may be inhibiting their progress as they consider future employment, 

or work towards improving their quality of life. We support this Subcommittees concern and effort as it recommends improvements for this program that can help the 

men and women that have honorably served their nation and are making an effort 

to transition back to the civilian world. 

The purpose of the VR&E program, as authorized under Chapter 31 of title 38 

USC, is to provide comprehensive services to address the employment barriers of 

service-connected disabled veterans in an effort to achieve maximum independence 

in daily living, and to obtain and maintain gainful employment. Ultimately, a goal 

of the VR&E program is to provide services to severely disabled veterans that will 

help them achieve the highest quality of life possible. 

Information from the recent GAO report ‘‘VA VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION 

AND EMPLOYMENT, Further Performance and Workload Management Improvements Are Needed,’’ (GAO–14–61) highlights some issues that will require attention 

and continued oversight of this important VA program. PVA generally concurs with 

the findings of the report and we likewise support the recommendations presented 

in the report. The members of PVA, veterans with spinal cord injury or disorder, 

tend to be higher volume users of VR&E services. As such, we would like to offer 

a few areas that could be improved in VR&E. 

Eligibility Period 

Currently, to be eligible for VR&E a veteran must have been discharged under 

circumstances other than dishonorable and have a disability rating of 20 percent or 

more that was incurred in, or aggravated by their service. The eligibility period to 

receive VR&E services is within a 12-year period beginning on either: (1) the date 

of separation from military service, or (2) the date the veteran receives a disability 

rating from the VA. The veteran must be in need of vocational rehabilitation in an 

effort to overcome employment barriers caused by such service-connected disability. 

VR&E provides for 48 months of entitlement to participate in the program. Unfortunately veterans only have twelve years from the date of the initial VA disability rating notification to utilize the program, with an exception for those with a serious 

employment disability. Although the eligibility period for VR&E was not a specific 

component of the GAO report this limiting factor could be detrimental to the success 

of a veteran’s rehabilitation. 

PVA and the other co-authors of the The Independent Budget, Disabled American 

Veterans, AMVETS, and Veterans of Foreign Wars, strongly believe that this 12- 

year eligibility period should be eliminated and all veterans with employment impediments should qualify for VR&E services. Many veterans are not aware of the 

VA’s VR&E program and how it can be used by disabled veterans’ to improve their 

lives. Often veterans learn of the VR&E services while talking to a VSO service officer or from information received from a service organization several years after 

their discharge. At that time they may have very few years remaining to utilize the 

program, or may be past the eligibility period. 

After severe injuries such as traumatic brain injury (TBI) or spinal cord injury 

(SCI) a veteran requires years to complete rehabilitation and make the adjustment 

to basic activities of daily living. During this time he or she is focused on recovery 

and the activity of returning to work is not a top priority for the veteran. Nevertheless, the veteran’s eligibility is elapsing. 

Additionally, as many disabled veterans grow older, their service connected disability may impose further restrictions on the veteran, thus preventing him or her 

from continuing their civilian work activities. The veteran may still have the economic need and the desire to work for an additional ten or twenty years. With the 

12-year time limitation, service connected disabled veterans become disqualified and 

not able to utilize the VR&E services later in life to maintain their active productive 

lifestyles. 

Remove the Cap on Independent Living 

The Independent Living (IL) Program, established by Congress in 1980 as an option within the Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment program to facilitate the 

provision of services, training, or equipment to veterans with severe disabilities. 

This program began as a pilot program with a limited enrollment of 500 severely 

disabled veterans each year. Since its beginning the program has seen periodic incremental increases in the maximum enrollment. Although the program has proven 

to benefit disabled veterans during their rehabilitation, existing legislation continues to limit, or cap the yearly enrollment. More than a decade of combat has produces many veterans that could benefit from assistance from the Independent Living option. Congress should remove the cap of 2,700 per year for Independent Living 


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enrollment and vocational rehabilitation counselors should be trained and encouraged to recommend the IL program when it could benefit a veteran’s rehabilitation. 

Reduce Counselor Caseload 

As of March 2013, the VR&E field staff totaled 1,281, of which 890 were vocational rehabilitation counselors. The average caseload for counselors at that time 

was 139 veterans, a decline from 152 reported in FY 2009. We believe this caseload 

is excessive to achieve the results that could be realized. PVA has a vocational rehabilitation employment program that is currently located in six metropolitan areas— 

Long Beach, Augusta, Boston, Minneapolis, San Antonio, and Richmond. Each office 

is located in a VA hospital, at the spinal cord unit to work primarily with spinal 

cord injured veterans and other seriously disabled veterans. Although spinal cord 

injured veterans are considered seriously disabled by the rehab industry standards, 

thus difficult to place in employment, PVA’s program has had a remarkable success 

rate for placing disabled veterans in employment. Since the rehab profession considers a caseload of 125 for one counselor to be the maximum, PVA has strived to 

keep councilors’ workloads below that number. This has allowed each counselor to 

spend more time with each veteran, explore all impairments to employment such 

as day care for children or transportation problems, and work to find solutions for 

these issues. They also develop employment contacts throughout the region that are 

interested in hiring veterans for full-time employment, or perhaps part-time employment. Reintroduction to employment often starts as part time, allowing the veteran 

to become oriented back into the workplace. This individual attention and guidance 

requires extra time from the counselor, time that is not available if their caseload 

is excessive. For this reason, we believe Congress should authorize sufficient staff 

and appropriate sufficient dollars to reduce the caseload. 

Increased Funding for VR&E 

The number of servicemembers, including National Guard and Reservists who 

have recently separated, and over the next 5 years will leave active duty is an unprecedented total. Many will leave active duty with a service connected disability, 

while others will develop a disability related to their service after leaving active 

duty. Congressional funding for the VR&E program must keep pace with veterans’ 

demand for this service. Our veterans have made a sacrifice for our nation, which 

is why our leaders must make a concerted effort to ensure that access to education, 

employment, and training opportunities are available for their transition to the civilian job market. There is a need for increased funding for additional staffing for 

VR&E including additional vocational rehabilitation counselors and employment coordinators. The current counselor to client ratios of approximately 139 veterans to 

one counselor is an unacceptable ratio. With many seriously injured service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan who will need this assistance, PVA believes the funding for VR&E should be increased. 

Chairman Flores, Ranking Member Takano, and members of the Subcommittee, 

PVA would like to thank you for this opportunity to express our views on the VA’s 

VR&E program. We thank you for continuing the work in this Subcommittee to ensure that veterans have the best available programs, options, and opportunities as 

they transition to the civilian world. 

Information Required by Rule XI 2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives 

Pursuant to Rule XI 2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives, the following information is provided regarding federal grants and contracts. 

Fiscal Year 2013 

National Council on Disability—Contract for Services—$35,000. 

Fiscal Year 2012 

No federal grants or contracts received. 

Fiscal Year 2011 

Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims, administered by the Legal Services Corporation—National Veterans Legal Services Program—$262,787. 


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1 Franklin, et al, 2013 Wounded Warrior Project Survey Report, 71 (July 2013). The percentage of alumni using the Post 9/11 GI Bill has continued to increase (53% in 2012, some 46% 

in 2011, and nearly 28% in 2010) while the percentage of alumni reporting the use of VR&E 

continues to decline (21% in 2012, down from almost 25% in 2011, and some 36% in 2010). 

WOUNDED WARRIOR PROJECT 

Chairman Flores, Ranking Member Takano, and Members of the Subcommittee: 

Wounded Warrior Project (WWP) appreciates your holding this hearing and welcomes the opportunity to share our perspective on VA’s Vocational Rehabilitation 

and Employment (VR&E) Program. 

With WWP’s mission to honor and empower wounded warriors, our vision is to 

foster the most successful, well-adjusted generation of veterans in our nation’s history. With military careers often cut short by life-altering injuries, it is particularly 

important that this generation of wounded warriors be afforded the tools, skills, resources, education, and support needed to find their new passion, secure employment, and develop fulfilling careers in ways that matter to them and their families. 

But, for a variety of reasons, vocational rehabilitation, education, and employment 

programs designed to give disabled veterans the help they need to gain success in 

the workforce are too often failing them. The VA’s VR&E program, in particular, 

should be a key transitional pathway for wounded warriors. 

Wounded warriors and WWP’s field staff—who work daily with our wounded warriors across the country—report wide-ranging variability in program administration 

and education/employment plan approvals, counselor skills, experience, understanding of TBI and PTSD, and interpretation and knowledge of the program’s services. Though some warriors report positive experiences and have worked with dedicated counselors, this represents the exception and not the norm. 

WWP annually surveys our alumni of servicemembers and veterans wounded 

after 9/11 to learn more about their physical and mental well-being and progress 

toward achieving economic self-sufficiency. In 2013 of those pursuing an education— 

only about 20 percent were using VR&E while 54 percent opted to use the Post 9/ 

11 GI Bill to finance their education.1 Given that VR&E provides counseling and 

other supports and is limited to service-connected disabled veterans, it is striking 

that the majority of our alumni are selecting the Post 9/11 GI Bill—which does not 

provide the counseling and assistance that VR&E offers. Some warriors and field 

staff offer the reasoning that the Post 9/11 GI Bill is easy access and a swifter 

means to get an education. Many others report it is because they would have ‘‘more 

freedom to pursue what they want, not what the vocational counselor tells them.’’ 

Warriors have reported instances of VR&E counselors challenging their employment aspirations by denying them access to their program of choice and pressing 

them instead to pursue ‘‘any job’’ as a goal. In other instances, wounded warriors 

seeking to go back to school to earn a second degree—to better compete in the job 

market—have met objection from counselors who view VR&E simply as a ‘‘jobs program.’’ Still, others, particularly those with TBI and PTSD, have had to try to convince VR&E counselors—who do not adequately understand TBI and PTSD (and the 

broad spectrum of these disabilities and their impact on an individual’s abilities and 

functional limitations)—that they would be able to handle and even succeed in higher education or employment. The prevalence of TBI and PTSD among this generation’s warriors underscores the importance of ensuring that programs like VR&E 

are responsive to the unique circumstances associated with those conditions. 

Additionally, warriors report delays in receiving VR&E services, difficulty communicating and scheduling with their counselors, and reduced opportunities to achieve 

successful and timely rehabilitation. The size of counselors’ caseloads has particularly limited their ability to provide adequate on-going support and assistance to 

veterans throughout the course of their education or training program, especially to 

those with TBI and PTSD who need such supports. 

The following comments are emblematic of the experiences of many: 

‘‘In my experience working with Voc Rehab counselors, many of my veterans were 

exasperated by their counselors and oftentimes felt as though their counselors had 

such a large caseload that they were not getting the attention needed . . . and more 

often than not being brushed off when they asked for assistance.’’ 

‘‘While many of the Voc Rehab staff are sensitive to the veteran’s needs, they do 

not seem to, as a whole, have an understanding of where the veteran is coming from 

. . . they are quick to write off a veteran’s career choice due to their disability rather 

than take into account things such as passion, determination, and drive.’’ 

‘‘Many veterans have to justify why they want a specific degree or [employment 

goal] and that doesn’t always match up with what the counselor believes that veteran can be successful at based on their history or [medical] diagnosis.’’ 


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2 U.S. Government Accountability Office, ‘‘VA Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment: Further Performance and Workload Management Improvements are Needed,’’ GAO–14–61 (2014). 3 Id. at 27 and 32. 

4 Franklin, et al, 2013 Wounded Warrior Project Survey Report, 108 (July 2013). 

The recent Government Accountability Report on VR&E highlights VR&E’s workload management challenges and gaps in VR&E staff training.2 The wide variability 

in counselor caseloads among the regional offices is particularly concerning, as is 

the fact that the program is just now—at the end of 2013 and into 2014—providing 

new staff training courses on mental health to improve counselors’ ability to assist 

veterans with PTSD and other mental health issues.3

VR&E counselors need to be sensitive and not only understand the struggles, but 

also the strengths, of warriors with TBI and PTSD so that they, in turn, can help 

warriors recognize that they are not ‘‘broken,’’ but continue to have great potential. 

They must be partners in the warriors’ rehabilitation, not critical gatekeepers who 

too readily dismiss ‘‘unrealistic’’ aspirations. In working with this generation, counselors must also understand the very profound disorientation experienced by warriors whose lives and life-plans have been upended and out of their control. As one 

put it, the ‘‘For me the most difficult part [of the transition] is finding purpose. [I] 

never really had to think about my purpose when I was in the Corps.’’ 4 A VR&E 

counselor must have the sensitivity, training and experience to help that warrior 

find new purpose, or to link him to appropriate professional help. But even the most 

capable, empathetic counselor—challenged with 150 other ‘‘cases’’ to manage—is unlikely even to have sufficient time to provide that warrior the needed level and kind 

of support. More appropriate staffing levels must be a component of refocusing and 

re-energizing this important program. In all, we urge the Subcommittee to make the 

VR&E program a greater priority through budgetary, programmatic, and outcomesbased action. 

f 

Question For The Record 

At the HVAC EO 2/27 hearing on the VR&E program, Chairman Flores asked VA 

witness Jack Kammerer the ranking of the CWINRS program in the VR&E program 

IT program resourcing for FY15. 

The following is VA’s response: 

Response: Funding for CWINRS enhancements to develop the next VR&E case 

management system remains on the list of IT development requirements for 

resourcing. VA continuously reviews its overall list of IT requirements to determine 

if projects can move forward as additional funding becomes available. It is not possible to project if and when funding will become available, as requirements continue 

to evolve. Currently, this development project is not funded in FY14 or FY15. 


VACREP180 with DISTILLER