Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime

Translation (CART) system used in the Signage Subcommittee meeting and is unedited.

The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss

and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the

public on the internet during the meeting.

1

x--------------------------------x

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

ADVISORY COMMITTEE

x--------------------------------x

SIGNAGE SUBCOMMITTEE

TELECONFERENCE

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2014

1:00 p.m.

**DRAFT**

Staff Location:

United States Access Board

1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000

Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra Gartrell
2

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

SIGNAGE SUBCOMMITTEE

OPERATOR: Thank you for standing by. At this

time all participants have their lines open,

interactive. To unmute your line, press star 6, to

mute press star 6. I will turn the call over to our

presenter. Thank you.

MR. BEATTY: Thank you, Jeremy. This is Paul

Beatty from the Access Board. I thank you for

attending the third Signage Subcommittee conference

call.

Before I turn the call over to Terry, who is the

Chair of the Signage Subcommittee, we would like to go

through introductions. So I am first asking Earlene

if she can read off those on the conference call

system.

MS. SESKER: Okay. Let me, first of all, start

by apologizing for anyone's name I may butcher, since

I'm seeing these names for the first time, in most

cases.

And we have Marilyn Golden, Janice Schrader-Lintz

(sic) --

MS. LINTZ: Schatner.

MS. SESKER: Schacter Lintz. Edward Feegan, Ed

Hoff, Edward Steinfeld, Lise Hamlin, Linda Martin,
3

Robert Carlson, Frank Maldari, Michael Porter, Andrew

Phillips, Jackson Xiu, Terry Pacheco, Billy Altom,

Chris Hart, Blair Slaughter. And that's it at this

point in time for the call-ins.

MR. BEATTY: Thank you, Earline.

And, Sandra, will you let us know who is

attending by the CART system.

CART REPORTER: Andrew Phillips, Andre Gagné,

Frank Maldari, Lise Hamlin and Michael Porter.

MR. PECHT: Thank you. Before I turn it over to

Terry, one last thing, and I failed to do it right

now, please identify yourself by your names. I should

have said, "This is Paul Beatty." So now this is Paul

Beatty and I'm turning it over to Terry. Take it

away, Terry.

CHAIR PACHECO: Good afternoon. This is Terry

Pacheco. First of all, I want to thank you for all

participating in this. Hopefully we will get a lot

accomplished today. I'm sorry that I have not been in

touch with some of you that have sent me information,

as such. I have been ill up until about three days

ago and I'm still trying to catch up with my own tail

right now. But I think we have a lot we can get done

today and a lot we should be able to get done in the

very near future.
4

With that, I am going to turn it over to Jim, who

is going to give us an update on -- just a refresher

on the last conference call on the 13 of February.

MR. PECHT: Yes. Very briefly, last conference

call first thing we did is we elected Ms. Pacheco, the

Chair of the subcommittee. Yay. And we began a

discussion on the list of categories and some of the

examples of the types of signs we would be looking at

that was passed around last package. You all should

have in this package as well.

There was discussion, pretty much, about

different types of categories and whether we -- the

proposal was to add a new category for caution and

safety signs, as opposed to informational -- or as a

subcategory of informational. And there was some

brief discussion about some of the hearing access

signage and the (inaudible) use and that sort of

thing.

But, for the most part, we spent the time

discussing the list that was provided. And at the end

of that, we sort of had a sort of small group sort of

pair off with Ms. Pacheo, Gary Talbot, me and Blair

Slaughter, were supposed to go huddle up and do some

things. Unfortunately that has not happened as of yet

but we are still going to work on it. And that is
5

pretty much what the last meeting was and I will turn

it over to Ms. Pacheco.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, very much, Jim. I am

trying to find my agenda to see what is next on it,

truthfully.

The subcommittee, the scope, scope and objective.

I'm assuming everyone on the call has read that

document and do we have any questions on it? Are we

all pretty clear on where we are going?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: The only questions I have on

the list for the signage is I'm not clear if like some

of those signs, kind of what the use is of some of the

signs. For example, when it says "emergency

informational sign," is that a sign that is in case

there is an emergency this is telling you what to do,

where therefore it should be, in my opinion, should be

audible or is that like an exit sign? I'm not sure

what some of those signs mean. Are they emergency,

informational operational, nonemergency signs. But

I'm not sure what those signs are.

So I would like to go through the signage

categories to fully understand. Because, you know, if

it is just a basic "this is the exit sign," we don't

need it audible, but if it is saying in an

emergency -- if it is one of those strips that is
6

telling you what is going on, then it needs to be

audible with a loop.

CHAIR PACHECO: You mean like the moving message?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Right. So I can't tell from

this what those are. You know the basic red and white

exit sign, no, it doesn't need to be audible, in my

opinion. My colleagues may feel otherwise. But if it

is a message sign that, you know, is going to

distribute emergency information, then it should be

audible.

MR. PECHT: I guess I can sort of jump in a

little bit. An emergency information -- the sign that

gives you -- the informational sign that gives you

information about the emergency things would be things

like "here is the passenger emergency intercom, this

is where it is, this is where it is located, there it

is." An operational sign would be like the little

sticker you find on the windows that are the emergency

exits giving you instructions about how to operate

that window, how to take it out in an emergency to get

out. That would be operational, gives sort of

instructions on how to do something, do an actual

task, as opposed to an information sign that says

"here is the thing and this is where you find it."

That sort of thing.
7

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think I would like to go

through the signs so I'm clear. Because from reading

the list, like operational one, like telling me how to

punch out a window, that doesn't need to be audible.

But I'm not clear -- the category names are very

similar. I'm not sure. And if there are photos of

what something like that looks like, that also would

assist me in determining whether it should be audible.

Because, like I said, anything that is changing

information or, you know, in terms of what to do in an

emergency, then I want to have -- but in an emergency

like "push out this window" but in terms of "we have a

snowstorm, we are skipping a station" or "this door is

no longer working, you now need to use the back door

instead of the front," those need to be audible with

an induction loop. But "exit this way," no, it

doesn't need to be.

MR. PHILLIPS: And I fully support what Janice is

saying. I know it is difficult for me to participate.

I'm calling through the relay service. Hopefully if I

do interject, you know, I apologize for any, you know,

anything.

But, anyway, I'm deaf and hard of hearing calling

through a relay service. And being a deaf and hard of

hearing person, we do need some visual representation
8

and I fully support your stance on that, Janice.

<<<: It's for audible, not visual.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Thank you.

CHAIR PACHECO: Janice, I completely agree with

you. I'm wondering if perhaps the solution is our

topic should be one is in case of emergency and

impending emergency.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You know what, I'm just not

sure --

CHAIR PACHECO: That is kind of what you are

saying, I think.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm not sure what these

signs are. So maybe if each category is explained and

if maybe at some point an example can be provided of

what they look like. Because I can't tell the

difference between non-emergency informational sign,

non-emergency operational sign, emergency -- I'm not

that keyed in on my signage. I know when I see it or

when it is described to me, whether that sign needs to

be audible and then have an audible loop in terms of

visual redundancy.

Someone who is hard of hearing does not want

information edited. But if something is, for example,

an exit sign, there is no information edited. The

exit sign is not changing, you can see it, there is
9

nothing that needs to be audible to be communicated.

CHAIR PACHECO: Actually, the thing is that does

need to be audible for someone who can't see it.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, no. I'm talking about

people who are hard of hearing.

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm talking about all

disabilities. We need to look at it from the whole

perspective, I think, perhaps.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I can only respond to people

who are deaf and hard of hearing. I have never said I

could represent people with visual impairments. I can

give you from a narrow perspective. And then my

colleagues who are representing people who are

visually impaired and blind, they will take a position

on that and I will support them. I am not preventing

anyone else. I can't give you an expert opinion on

that because I just -- for me it is a learning process

and I want to learn as much as possible about the

other disabilities but I don't have the expertise. Is

that clear?

So I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm just say

for people who are deaf and hard of hearing. But I'm

not clear what these signs are, what they look like

and therefore can't make a decision based on just

words because I don't know what they are. It's not
10

clear to me.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Let me offer this. A lot of the

signs, when we think about signs typically we are

thinking about nonactive static signs. Obviously we

have to think about signs that are active in real

time. So you have -- let's say we have an emergency

direction sign that is always in the same place and

always says the same thing. Because of its placement,

it may not be of any use to someone who is blind or

impaired, but it may be fine for someone who is hard

of hearing and sighted.

And then we have to break away to the immediate

messages where something has occurred that is out of

the norm, "we are not going to make this station stop"

or there is an emergency and there are instructions

coming from the crew. And I think that is where we

get into with, you know, visual and audible messages

that the audible obviously is delivered over the

induction loop and the regular PA system and the

visual information sign.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But there are many messages

that are perceived as static, but are not. For

example, stops, which would be perceived as static,

those should be audible and visual. So therefore an

induction loop would come in.
11

So I think we really need a visual representation

of what these signs are or let's discuss them and go

one by one of what every sign is. But I can't make

assumptions not being in the signage business and not

knowing what these are, whether or not -- just because

something has been that way doesn't mean it should

continue. But I don't know what it is and I may think

it should continue but I don't know what it is.

<<<: (Inaudible) that these categories here, are

going to explain and possibly provide a diagram --

MR. PECHT: Who is speaking, please?

(NO RESPONSE)

MR. PECHT: Remember to identify yourself when

you start speaking. And, secondly, can we sort of

dial back just a little bit and sort of take -- start

with signs and things like dynamic announcements that

come from like, say, a crew, sort of a real time "here

is this problem, we need to do this," sort of

understand that is a communication issue. It needs to

be done in both visual and audible with the induction

loop, et cetera, but really not discuss those at this

point in time and just sort of talk about the signs,

which are sort of rote or static or print signs, in

other words, an automatic stop announcement says "this

is the Rochester Station, doors opening," whatever.
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Look at that as a variable message sign in audible

format as well. And take this sort of dynamic real

time announcements out of the mix at this point in

time.

Is that something we can agree to?

MR. MALDARI: I would agree with that. And I

think the scope of this is getting too wide and too

confusing. Most of these signs are static signs. And

there is a lot of work to be done on static signs.

And if we can focus on that first, then the dynamic

signs, the messaging and emergency variable signs,

that should be the second part of what we are doing.

We have a lot of work to do on just static signs

first and we are complicating the issue by including

all these variable messages. So I think that is the

way we should go.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I would like to go through

since I am not in the train business, I'm in the

access business. I am not familiar with what people

in the rail business constitute as static and

nonstatic. And I would like to go through.

And while the Long Island Railroad may find it

tedious, I don't mind spending that time going through

it. I would like to go through each sign that you

consider in the static category because I may not find
13

it static, and I need to know what I'm agreeing to.

What you consider static and I consider static may not

be considered static.

And based on a recent meeting I had with Long

Island Railroad, I have come to the realization we are

on different playing fields.

So I would like to go through that, quote,

tedious process.

MR. MALDARI: I didn't say we shouldn't look at

them or categorize them. I said we should focus on

the static signs and we can go through them. I think

there is a lot of signs here. And if you want to go

through each one and try to explain it.

I personally think the level of detail we got in

with these signs is way too deep. If you look at the

chart that was made, it is better, it categorizes the

signs. It doesn't get into every last detail and

every single directional sign that exists. And I

think if we spend some time going through that chart,

I don't know who created it, but it is a good outline

of what we are trying to do here.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm happy to go through --

take one cat -- to me, start with the top category. I

mean, I think the chart is great. It is a starting

point. I think we start with the directional signs.
14

We go through and we explain what those are. Then we

move to the next category and we chip away. And I'm

fine, happy to be part of it.

I don't know what static signs are and I don't

necessarily agree that -- I may find that I do agree

with you. But the problem is, since I'm not clear

what you consider static signs without seeing them,

whether I consider those static signs and I'm not

fully -- just because something has been one way, this

is an opportunity to assess whether that is the

correct way. And I am personally thrilled to take the

time to go through this and figure out what we are

doing.

I don't want to make assumptions. I find that is

a very bad way to do things because that is the way

things are carried forward in the future that could be

changed.

MR. PHILLIPS: The importance of the signs for

the deaf and hard of hearing people -- I believe are

last subcommittee meeting that we had was talking

about this issue. And what we were looking for was an

opportunity, if you will, to really look at each one

of them and make sure of the accessibility. I think

the point here is we don't want to pass up that

opportunity to be able to do exactly what Janice is
15

saying.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, Andrew.

My feeling -- Janice, to begin with, you and I

are very much on the same page. We both come from

access. Neither one of us is in the train business or

the sign business, as such.

Could somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but

static signs, in my mind, are the ones that are glued

to the wall that say "exit", that say something that

is not going to change because it is not electronic,

it is not audible. It is, of course, visible. It may

be tactile. It should be both visual and tactile, at

least. That is what my thought of what a static sign

is. "Static" meaning it is not moving. It is not

related to something that is in flux or in change, as

opposed to an electronic sign, VMS's, the electronic

one that just has exit. A lighted sign, if you will,

would probably not be a static sign. And I'm

wondering could we start at that jumping off point,

perhaps.

MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good definition.

Static signs, from the way we look at it, is something

that is permanent and doesn't change. You are talking

about decals and maybe a label, could be metal. But

it is a label that is saying the same thing all day
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long.

Variable message sign is clearly something that

you want to have the audible and visual duplication.

But it is a changing sign, it is a changing message.

And there are some types, if you look through this

carefully, there are a couple of other things like

door closing alarm. Again, that is what you were

saying about a light that comes on and off. That is

an alert and different from a static sign. So if we

want to use that definition, I think it is a good one.

If you want to go through these charts and try to

categorize them, that is a good way to start.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Frank, I would agree with that

and, Terry, I think you hit the nail on the head. I

think part of this exercise, from my standpoint --

because we have gone through a lot of effort to make

signs tactile and visual, but there may be some signs

that simply is not enough. So we may continue to have

a static sign. But there may be information that we

need to know how to communicate, how to best

communicate to people who that sign may be of little

value or because of its placement it is not

immediately available for orientation.

So I think if we can work off the non-changing

signs with the idea that as we go through or maybe
17

after we go through them and decide what needs to be

just visual or visual and tactile, then we can also go

back through and say, "Okay, that message, depending

on the conditions or maybe always needs to be

explained in another method that is not a static thing

glued to the wall. Maybe there needs to be an audible

explanation of some of these things." That is not

going to be everything that we see, that we have here.

But I think if we have our list as the left-hand

column and assume that that is static information and

then we move across and most of those items are going

to stay there, they are going to get designations

that's needing to be visual and tactile or just

visual. And then there are going to be some that come

further out and are going to need further explanation

because maybe that is simply not enough for a better

level of accessibility.

And then the challenge will be how do we do that.

I don't think the committee needs to labor too much on

"needs to be achieved" but "to be achieved." We can

argue how to do it later. That way we can get through

and make determination of what level of accessible

each message needs to have or each type of message.

Again, I would go back and say let's start with

the categories. I think even within a category there
18

will be messages that don't need a more complex

explanation and there will be those that do. So I

would say we should start on that and try to make as

much headway as we can, but not close any doors and go

back and talk about some of these things there are

questions about.

For Janice or any of the rest of us who are not

real sure or not comfortable, we are not closing the

door and turning off the light on any of these things

until we get further down the path.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm uncomfortable with that.

I would like to start at the top of the list and work

our way down. I'm an attorney. I'm very methodical.

I think things get lost and forgotten. And I would

like to start at the top of the list, since the list

was made, very thoughtfully. Let's start at the top,

work our way down and this way we know where we

started and stopped. This is very straightforward.

It may be simple to you. It may be clear what you

think is fixed and what is not. I would have to agree

to disagree with you.

I think there are a lot of signs that people in

the rail industry think are static that shouldn't be.

And I had a meeting with the Long Island Railroad the

other day explaining that stop signs they felt were
19

static. They are not static. They change. So I

think that is very not accurate when we say.

So why don't we start simply from the top and

work our way down. And this list was compiled for a

reason and this way we know where we stopped and

started.

CHAIR PACHECO: Let's just get something done.

Go ahead. Why don't we --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: (Inaudible) directional

sign. That's where we started. Let's start from the

top and then we go through. We explain what the sign

is and make the determination. I don't know why it is

so complicated.

CHAIR PACHECO: Because we do not have time to go

through an audible description of every sign, I don't

believe --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But we have to.

CHAIR PACHECO: -- on this call.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: We have to. Then we have to

make another call for people not in the sign

business --

CHAIR PACHECO: You don't need to be -- I'm

sorry. You do not need to be in the sign business to

know what a stop sign looks like.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Sorry, I don't know what
20

some of these signs are, stop signs. And if they are

that brief, they will take five seconds. And I want

to go through all of the signs. If we are making a

determination, I need to know what everything is. And

it is not like you included photos or descriptions.

This is not clear for the nonsign people. I'm a

hearing access person and I want to go through the

list. Sending me a list like this is not clear.

CHAIR PACHECO: But sending other people pictures

is not clear either.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It is, it is clear.

CHAIR PACHECO: It is not clear to a blind person

like myself.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But you can have both and

that goes back to redundancy of words and visual. So

where it is not clear to someone who is blind, it is

clear to somebody who relies on that information. And

that is why -- thank you for reinforcing -- I believe

we need redundancy.

MR. MALDARI: A quick comment. I'm not against

going through some of this stuff. I think you have to

be clear on what we are trying to do. If someone is

blind, they need to get information in another means.

If someone is deaf --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm not disagreeing with
21

that.

MR. MALDARI: Let me finish.

-- they need to get their information in another

means; okay? And we need to be clear the signs on the

car now, most decals are all visual. We can go

through them and decide if another means for purpose

of the signs needs to be provided. We don't have to

say it needs to be a hearing loop at this time or how

it is going to be provided. If something needs to be

provided to the visually impaired and the hearing

impaired, to limit yourself --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It's hard of hearing.

MR. MALDARI: -- to limit yourself specifically

--

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Can we use politically

correct terms. It is "people who are hard of hearing"

and it is not "hearing impaired." People are not

defined by their disability.

MR. MALDARI: Okay.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'd appreciate it if we use

politically correct information in the call.

I'm not disagreeing with this. I'm just saying

--

MR. MALDARI: But you are constantly interrupting

me and if you don't let me finish --
22

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I want to get through the

call --

MR. MALDARI: Do you?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I just want to go through

the list.

MR. MALDARI: Sounds like you're just arguing.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Someone sends a list, I

don't understand the list. I'm saying let's go from

the top, work our way down. Seems logical. That's

usually the way agendas work. And I don't really

understand -- and the fact that there is such strong

pushback is concerning to me because that should be a

simple, straightforward request and the pushback is

concerning to me of what is going to be shuffled under

the rug.

And so I want to go through, start at the top. I

am not familiar with this. I am not precluding any

visual for any disability. I want to understand what

every category is so that I can thoughtfully agree or

disagree with something. I don't know what I'm

agreeing or disagreeing. I don't even understand what

these signs are.

MR. PECHT: Janice, the list was sort of put out

as a large number of examples people had sort of

accumulated and sent in and we tried to sort of
23

categorize the list. The list is not exhaustive.

There are probably more types of signs out there than

each of the categories we show.

It was more or less to get the general categories

sort of specified to sort of discuss on such a general

point, very general point, what direction to go with

regards to -- how do you -- what type of accessibility

do you apply to those type of categories --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yeah, my understanding is

this. We are wasting time. Let's just go through the

list. I understand all of that. I'm not familiar

with the categories. Let's just start from the top,

work our way through and then we can make comments

along the way. I don't understand what the delay is.

You know, you have to understand not all of us

are in the rail businesses, not all of us are in the

sign businesses. The same way we have to be patient

with the rail people and understand what different

type of access is, the rail business has to be patient

with the access people for understanding what the rail

business is.

That is just the way it works and that's how we

come up with good solutions. So let's start from the

top and work our way down. I don't understand what

the delay is. I mean, we've wasted a half hour on
24

this.

CHAIR PACHECO: Yes, we have. And we would have

been through this by now.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Not really because I don't

understand your categories and so I need to and I'd

like to go through it. And I understand -- I have to

represent people who are deaf and hard of hearing. I

need to understand. Just because something has been

one way doesn't mean it has to continue that way. And

based on my -- my experience is based on change.

MR. MALDARI: I'm just going to jump in one more

time and try to clarify. I think what Mr. Pecht was

saying, we don't -- I don't think you need to go

through every single --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I do. I --

MR. MALDARI: You gotta let me speak. You gotta

let me speak.

(Simultaneous Discussion)

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. You're out of --

(Simultaneous Discussion)

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You're wasting time.

CHAIR PACHECO: Excuse me. Excuse me, as Chair

of this committee, I'm sorry, Janice, you are out of

order. Please let Mr. Maldari finish. Thank you.

MR. MALDARI: The point I'm making is we've
25

categorized these signs. Jim's point this is not an

exhaustive list of every single sign in each category.

So as a category, these are examples of the signs.

And as a category they need to be categorized as to

how they should be displayed, the information should

be displayed and this is what the chart does.

Now, we can go through these but I don't think

you need to say every single sign and put a specific

category under it. That was the idea of grouping

them. And the grouping is very helpful because then

you will come up with examples of signs like this that

will fall into this category. And if you are not sure

if a particular sign falls in a particular category,

we can discuss that. But to think we are going to

identify every single sign listed here, some of which

is duplicates because they were trying to put in this

as they were listed, is not the right way to do

things.

The right way to do things is to go by category.

If you think of a type of sign and you are not sure

what category it falls in, that is the discussion that

needs to be made. And how that information for that

category of sign is displayed is the goal that we have

today, I believe, and that is what the chart does very

well. And we can discuss --
26

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: In your opinion, in your

opinion. Not to me. I'm not in the sign business.

I'm not --

CHAIR PACHECO: Then maybe we should take a vote.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I think what we -- no,

I'm sorry. You are not allowed even as a chair of a

committee to tell someone they are not allowed to have

information. And I am ask --

CHAIR PACHECO: I didn't say that you were not

allowed to have information.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, that is what comes

off.

CHAIR PACHECO: Well, if you would --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I cannot understand -- you

created a chart without explanation and I don't

understand your chart and the way you categorize it.

There are no examples of the type of signs.

MR. MALDARI: There are.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, there are not.

MR. MALDARI: Listen, they made a list and on the

list they categorize --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Who is "they"? Who made

this list?

CHAIR PACHECO: This committee. Have you been on

any of these calls?
27

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Of course. Who made this

chart?

CHAIR PACHECO: Jim put it together based on what

several members of this committee submitted and that

is why there are some duplicates because several of us

submitted.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: So did I. I submitted and I

did that. But he didn't include those types of

charts, the types of signs he thought go in each

committee -- in each little box. I can't get in his

head and know what he's thinking. And all of you that

responding are all in the rail community.

CHAIR PACHECO: That is not true. I am not in

the rail community.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: But you are running the

committee and speaking with other people. I'm not.

Can we just start at the top and work our way

down and give examples of each little box so that I

can understand this. I cannot understand why there is

such opposition to explain to me what a directional

sign is, what is a destination sign, what does a

destination sign tell me. Let's just go through this.

It would have taken 15 minutes. It has taken 40

minutes to argue why we shouldn't do this.

MR. MALDARI: Did you read what was attached to
28

the meeting?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Yes --

MR. MALDARI: There is a list --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- I did.

MR. MALDARI: Okay. There is a list. The list

has it categorized and gives examples of each type.

There is a list with all the categorization and

there's a chart which summarizes it.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, it doesn't. No --

MR. MALDARI: If you are not sure what the

examples are, if they are not sure what the examples

are, then go to the fixed page document, eight-page

document that has the categories of signs and the

typical examples of signs that fall into that

category.

This is what we spent time talking about at the

last meeting.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I have been on the phone

calls and participating --

MR. MALDARI: So it's frustrating --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- and participating, so --

MR. MALDARI: I'm telling you, it is frustrating

to me that you haven't read because you are asking

questions that suggest you have not read this.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: First of all, I just
29

received this five minutes before the call and I never

received the email, which I've already contacted

Access Board to please confirm I was on the mail. So

I didn't receive it.

MR. MALDARI: We talked about this at the last

conference call.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I was on the call and I

participated on the call. So please don't ask whether

I was there since you know I contributed.

MR. MALDARI: I'm trying to tell you that this

information -- you are asking for us to go through and

identify things which we've already done. There are

examples here. If you are not sure if a specific item

belongs in the category, we can go category by

category and say, "I am not sure if this belongs

here." We can do that.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Fine. Then why don't I ask

you, since you are so familiar, can you please send me

photos of what some of these signs look like for the

categories since I'm not familiar with this and we

will do this offline? But I would like photos of what

these signs look like. I'm not familiar with it. And

since it seems to be so simple for you, why don't you

take the lead on that and provide me copies of the

photos? Because I'm a visual person, I need to know
30

what things look like and I'm not clear from what all

of this is.

Because when you say "station maps" and

"way-finders," New York City has recently implemented

way-finders that are touchscreen. Is there audible?

Some states --

CHAIR PACHECO: (Inaudible) static.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- may have audible, some

states don't. And if they have audible they need an

induction loop. So that's not clear. I know that --

if they are adding that onto trains, telling me a

station map and a way-finding sign, I don't know if

that is a static sign or a moveable sign. It is not

clear. So, you know, things with technology are

changing. I don't understand. I would like photos of

what we are talking about here.

CHAIR PACHECO: Then you need to also make --

somebody has got to make audio descriptions of every

one of them because this is what I requested at the

last session. And we cannot do that because we have

to put all the documentation up on the website and it

all has to be accessible. Therefore all of the

pictures that you want has to also have an audio

description.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Okay. I'm not asking --
31

CHAIR PACHECO: Do you have somebody -- do you

have anyone that would be willing to volunteer to do

all of the audio descriptions?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I don't. I would send

someone from the visual impairment community to do

that. I'm in the hearing --

CHAIR PACHECO: We're visual -- I know you are in

the hearing loss. The point is, it is the visually

impaired community as opposed to the hearing impaired

community that --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: It's not hearing impaired.

It is deaf and hard of hearing.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am hearing impaired. I don't

care --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't care what you are.

CHAIR PACHECO: -- what you want to call it.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please stop --

CHAIR PACHECO: Please stop --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please don't take this

personal.

CHAIR PACHECO: -- interrupting.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are attacking me

personally. And I don't want to be attacked

personally.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am not attacking you
32

personally.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are.

CHAIR PACHECO: You are --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Telling me you don't care

what other people want to be called, the community

is --

CHAIR PACHECO: I don't --

MR. CAPOZZI: Janice --

(Simultaneous Discussion)

MR. CAPOZZI: Janice, this is --

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm not having any further

discussion on this. This has gone too far. I am

going to suggest that we either -- that perhaps we

need to just cancel this call because this is just

absolutely nonproductive.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, I think --

CHAIR PACHECO: I think that it is a shame and an

absolute disservice to the rest of the committee.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, I think --

MR. CAPOZZI: Janice --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: -- what is disturbing to me

is when you compile something like this with

way-finding signs. And the New York City Transit has

just announced that their way-finding signs are now

going to be visual with touchscreens. And I don't
33

know if those are going to have sound. Then they have

to have audio description and an induction loop

attached. And that does not necessarily make a static

sign the way in the 1960s we just had little visual

maps.

CHAIR PACHECO: And nobody has said that it does.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm asking --

CHAIR PACHECO: We have actually been telling you

since the beginning of this call, practically, that

that is not a static sign. All we wanted to do was

split into static and nonstatic and I had agreed to go

and we all agreed to go --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Please stop yelling in my

ear.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling. Now maybe you

have a problem with your phone.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, actually I don't.

CHAIR PACHECO: I don't know, but I am not

yelling.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And I don't have a hearing

loss as well.
34

But you know what, station maps might be

considered static and may not be and I can't tell from

this what is static and what is not.

CHAIR PACHECO: They are going -- so they will

end up in two different categories, not --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And how can I tell you what

category?

CHAIR PACHECO: -- everything is going to be in

one category.

This is ridiculous.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: No, you're not allowing me

to speak.

MR. CAPOZZI: Terry --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't know what category

something goes in if I don't know what it is. And I

can read this list, but the problem is with technology

today, things are changing from what was previously

flat signs of a picture of an exit to suddenly

becoming moveable, nonstatic.

CHAIR PACHECO: We --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: And even signs that were

previously static, they shouldn't have been static.

CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: So that's the problem.

CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very well a --
35

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm trying to understand.

CHAIR PACHECO: We are all very aware of that.

And if perhaps if you listened to all of us as we went

through this a bit, you would be understanding it by

now.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, because I said let's

start from the top of the chart and go down -- and I

was surprised, frankly, and shocked to find out that

starting at the top and working your way down was not

an acceptable solution.

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm very surprised at the whole

behavior -- at this whole incident, frankly.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, I'm surprised that you

are yelling. So, you know --

CHAIR PACHECO: I am not yelling.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: You are yelling. You are

certainly yelling.

CHAIR PACHECO: I am sitting in an office where I

am not yelling. I have other people around me.

Nobody else has an issue --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Well, it is coming across

loud on my end, so I can't say what is going on.

(Simultaneous Discussion)

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I just don't understand why

we can't go from the top and work down. But, you
36

know, I will go --

(Simultaneous Discussion)

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I will go defend my rights

to this.

CHAIR PACHECO: And so do we.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Fine, then please proceed

since you're the Chair.

MR. CAPOZZI: Janice and Terry, this is David at

the Access Board.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, David.

MR. CAPOZZI: So just a note about keeping things

civil -- and I understand there's emotions on these

issues, but I think it is important that we all

respect each other's positions and let each other

speak and finish your sentences. And, you know, I

think we are all trying to achieve the same purpose,

especially coming from Terry and Janice, you are both

advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. So

I don't think there is any, you know, cross-purpose

that we are working at here. So let's just try to

tone it down a bit and move along in a civil manner.

CHAIR PACHECO: Jim, do you have the list in

front of you?

MR. PECHT: Yes, Terry, I do. I have both the

table, which is something separate, and the list that
37

came along with the agenda.

CHAIR PACHECO: Right, okay. Could you explain

the table to the folks on the call.

MR. PECHT: Yes, I can.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you.

MR. PECHT: I basically took the categories, the

general categories that we sort of discussed in a

previous thing that we put out with the whole list,

put them on the table and then put either tactile and

visual, visual, variable methods signs not required

and then the last is a rail type of thing, we can

discuss later.

What I put out was how the current building

standards under the ADA would treat each of these

types of sign. This is not how I expect the rail

community and the rail vehicle to attack these signs.

Obviously there are going to be different access in

different places for different things for rail

vehicle. This is basically how the ADA building

standard would apply to these category of signs; in

other words, a directional sign, a sign that tells you

the elevator is down at the end of the hall, the

toilet room is around the corner, the exit is in that

direction with an arrow, Rooms 105-107 to the right,

Rooms 108-110 go to the left with an arrow for those,
38

those are directional. Those signs are treated as

visual requirements only as far as the building

standards are concerned. So that is basically an

example.

You can go through and say how do directional

signs in rail vehicles stack up to that? Do you want

to apply the same requirement? Do you want to apply a

different requirement? Do you have specific

directional signs that need to be tactile and some

that can be just visual or some that should be visual

and variable message? And then you want to sort of

categorize them by rail type because not all types of

sign or categories would apply to all the rail types.

For example, a designation of a space, in other

words, a specific space on a car is probably only

going to apply to inner-city rail and high speed rail

because those have separate types of spaces like

dining cars, sleeping cars and toilet rooms. Whereas

a Metro subway car, a rapid rail car has one big car

with a bunch of seats and that is it. No specific

space and none has to be specified in that particular

car.

A table was sort of put out there as sort of

taking the categories that we had sort of talked about

in the list previously and then putting them in a
39

table format. And then now you can sort of go through

and say, "Okay, with directional signs in rail

vehicles, what do we want to do and that is why this

was basically put out."

I put some designations, a letter designation for

the different types of rail vehicles; rapid, light,

commuter, inner-city, automatic guideways, high speed

rail and tram. That was basically the purpose of the

table, to sort of start as a basis for discussion of

where you want to go with the various categories for

sign, looking at the examples to sort of give you

guidance about where you want to go with this.

MR. MALDARI: Jim, I think this chart is really

good and really helpful.

Were you intending to have a chart filled out for

each type of rail in case there are differences

between the two?

MR. PECHT: That is a level of complexity I think

we can sort of get into when we start discussing it.

If we get to a point we say, for this type of sign

pretty much -- it applies to all rail types and that

is fine. But if there are certain types of signs, you

know, certain types of signs of this category apply to

this type of rail type but don't apply to that type,

then you may want to get into a more complex or
40

detailed discussion at that point.

I'm assuming that will happen. You'll go through

and say, "Well, we need to have an exception for this

type of rail type, this specific type of sign or we

need to require something greater for this type of

rail type."

MR. MALDARI: I think that's great. The only

thing that is maybe a little unclear to me is when you

put in a requirement for a sign, that it has to meet

these requirements, is it also a requirement that the

sign exists or is the requirement if you have this

sign then these requirements exist?

MR. PECHT: Again, that may be part of the

discussion that we have. In other words, there may be

a requirement to have from other requirements, for

exit signs for emergency purposes, that may be

required by another regulation. But as far as access

is concerned, it is being provided.

Not obviously -- I say this in the building

industry for building, if you have a janitor's closet

and you don't want to put up a sign telling people it

is a janitor's closet, that's fine. You can have a

blank door with a lock on it and only the janitor

knows because he's got the key, that's fine. If you

choose to have a sign that says "janitor", you pick up
41

accessibility requirements in the building world.

You may or may not want to do that with certain

signs. And I assume that is part of the discussion

for rail vehicles, that these signs, unless you

specify that they are required, it would be if

provided this is what you do.

MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good way to

proceed. I think that's a good idea. And it matches

what is already being done in the building code. I

just wanted to be clear about it. If a sign is

provided, this is how it has to be provided, not that

it has to be provided. I think that is a good way to

do it. Then we go through the list, like you said,

and see if everyone is in agreement with what you

wrote here and we can apply it for rail cars. And if

a specific type of rapid rail, light rail or commuter

rail is different, we can identify it or we can group

them all together.

I think we should go down this chart, if everyone

else is clear on what the chart says and what we are

trying to do.

MR. CARLSON: With this category chart here, we

are looking at replacing the X's here with the various

designations of rail type, the RLCIA and HT? Are we

looking to try to fill in these blank spaces with
42

those kinds of designation to say that directional

signs, for example, are required in all categories or

just one category? Is that what we are looking to

doing?

MR. PECHT: However you want to do it.

CHAIR PACHECO: That would seem a logical way to

me. I think we also need to -- my other thought on it

is that we also need to look to see if, yes, these are

the requirements under the ADA but do we want to

enhance -- are there any other changes we want to make

to that.

My first question, for instance, does the

directional signage includes directional exit signs,

for instance. That right now is only on visual. Do

we also want to put that in as tactile?

MR. CARLSON: So we put in X's for the category

of information delivery and then in the last column of

rail type, we put in whether it is required on that

particular type of vehicle.

CHAIR PACHECO: That would be sensible to me.

How does the rest of the committee feel?

MR. CARLSON: I am going to modify that and

probably say it is probably better to put those

designations in each of those categories because you

might not want to have a particular type of delivery
43

of information required for a particular mode of

vehicle, if you follow that. Tactile might be

everything, but one or designation signs for elements,

I'm not quite sure what that means. But you might say

that applies for tactile, visual, VMS, for three

different categories but the others do not. Something

of that nature.

MR. PECHT: So you are proposing basically to do

away with the last column and use the letter

designations within the table itself?

MR. CARLSON: Yes.

MR. PECHT: That is a fine way to do it as well.

MR. MALDARI: I think that is a good idea, but

you might want to add one more that says "all of

them." Some of these might apply to all instead of

listing all the letters.

MR. CARLSON: You would put in an A for all.

MR. MALDARI: A is for automated. I'm just

saying -- that's fine. I'm just saying a lot of them

will be for all. But it is a good point to have --

MR. CARLSON: We can write in "all."

MR. MALDARI: That's okay. That's good too.

MR. CARLSON: Some designation in there that says

that all modes of vehicle types are required to have

tactile and visual for exit signs or directional
44

signs. And then later on, a particular sign would be

assigned to a particular category. Like an exit sign

is a directional sign but other signs might be

directional signs but they also might be something

else instead.

MS. HAMLIN: I think this is a piece that -- I

agree -- I like the idea, putting on the different

rail cars and I think that makes a lot of sense,

rather than having a different column.

Here is another question. When you are looking

at a directional sign, for example, I can imagine one

directional sign that is visual messaging service or

whatever it is called, and it has a point to the exit

sign.

I can also imagine a static sign that says -- it

is static and one that is visual and tactile that says

"exit that way." So I'm a little -- I'm wondering how

we can drill down a little bit. Because I noticed --

I mean, under buildings, of course, there is no

requirements for visual signs at all. So I understand

why that is all blank. But if we are going to fill

that in, we don't want every single directional sign

to be either required or even, as you suggested, you

could say if you are providing it, you provide it this

way.
45

So I'm wondering how we get that in there, I

guess is what I'm saying.

MR. MALDARI: I'm thinking VMS signs are exactly

what you are talking about, a variable message. It is

almost a separate item because it can be providing any

of the information provided above and that is almost a

separate category in and of itself that is going to be

treated differently. These to me are looking at

static signs that are decals, for the most part, and

then we can go through them. There are examples of

each.

The only way to handle it appropriately is to

have it as a separate entity. Any information can be

provided. It is going to be variable information.

And any information you do provide in a variable

message sign has to be provided to both. I think that

is the way to do it without saying "this type of

variable message sign and that type of variable

message sign." If you have a variable message sign,

you have to provide it in both means.

MR. CARLSON: Maybe the VMS column should become

one of the lines under category.

MR. MALDARI: That is what I was thinking.

MR. CARLSON: It is a type of sign and so you

would say "all VMS must be visual and audible," but it
46

would be very difficult to make it tactile.

MS. HAMLIN: I think that makes sense, taking it

out of -- because otherwise we would have to

subcategorize because not every sign you want visual

and tactile. But to make it a whole separate category

of signage, that sounds like it makes sense to me.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think we just need to plan

that whatever categories we are talking about and how

we change this, that we take into account the future

of technology changing. So while some things we may

have not anticipated previously with directional

signage being not static or decals, are now becoming

tactile and we just need to incorporate that for the

future.

MS. HAMLIN: I think that makes sense too and

maybe even we need a category -- and I don't know if

we can do this for touchscreen. For example, as soon

as you said touchscreen, I thought, "Oh, my God, we

also need to make it visually accessible." Maybe we

need two extra categories, not just the visual

messaging sign, which we already have a definition

for, but touchscreen and then we have to think of

other kinds of electronic signage that can be produced

in the future.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is all I was saying
47

before. That is my concern with the list, is we are

basing it on the history versus going forward and we

are already seeing changes in signage in New York and

I don't know what is going on in the country and that

is what makes me nervous about these categories. I

think the categories are static and they don't prepare

us for the future of moving toward a more electronic

user sign.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I think the important thing to go

along with what Janice said and everyone one else, I

think there are some of these messages that no matter

what wonderful things come down the road, they won't

need that level of complexity. But we are on the cusp

of a lot of new technology. We don't know what is

going to be in a year or five or 10 years, but I think

as part of this exercise, if we identify information

that currently isn't appropriate for a static sign

because it is changing information, it is not always

the same at every moment or at every stop or every

day. Or in the case of Amtrak, it is not the same for

every route the train runs on.

But if we can determine that that is information

that needs to be provided and forget about the current

versus the future technology -- and I don't mean

discount it, but not trying to think what about it is
48

going to be, but know that something is going to be

different and available.

But if we've already determine that some of this

information needs to be provided in an electronic and

for now visual format, that does not preclude that

that system or the groundwork that you build into a

vehicle or into the regulations or however we want to

treat this, can't be updated to the latest technology.

And I will use a very quick example. It is 100

percent relevant to signs.

Amtrak, for example, had rail phone years ago

when cellphones for individuals were a novelty or

didn't exist at all and they were very complex, and,

boy, they were cutting edge and we made money on them.

Well, eventually they were eclipsed by cellphone

technology and there are other things that we do on

trains and we do in our every day lives that are

eclipsed now by Smart Phones.

We never 25 years ago would have said, "Wow, this

will make all the investment we did on this phone

irrelevant." But we knew the technology was changing

and that it was never going to last but it was going

to change and some things go away and some things get

added.

I think for the sake of moving us all forward so
49

that as providers we are providing people the

transportation and the information they need while

they are with us -- and don't assume that everything

is solved with a static sign. I don't think any of us

believe that that is possible, if we are serious about

accessibility.

I wouldn't want us to get wrapped around the axle

of what the technology is. If we can identify the

things as we are working through this that really are

critical to someone's ability to manage themselves on

our vehicles, our system, then that leaves the door

open for all the technology coming down the road, not

just what we know of today.

MR. PECHT: Let me sort of jump in and address

two issues real quickly. Touchpads. You are getting

into interactive use now and you are sort of moving

away from signage. Signage to me is something that

gives you information. You don't get to change it.

When you start talking about touchpads, now you

are talking about interactive kiosks, which is a whole

different animal. And I think we want to stay away

from those just for complexity sake. They can be

addressed in the general communication requirements

that we are going to talk about with other issues.

But for signage I think you want to stay away from the
50

touchpad issue.

Secondly with regard to VMS, VMS is basically, if

you will, a subcategory, a visual, visual signs. It

just happens to be moveable, it moves. I would look

at it from the standpoint -- take the first category,

directional signs. You might want to say that "Where

you provide for directional signs, they need to be

visual if they are provided. If you choose to provide

VMS these are the requirements for those."

So you may want to put different types of rail

issues or rail designations in both categories and

sort of allow "If you do this with sort of a static on

the wall print signs, this is what you do if you

choose to use VMS, for this type of directional sign,

this is what you do." And sort of leave it open like

that. There are going to be some type of vehicles

that are just not going to have this, like a tram.

You are not going to have directional signage in a

tram, really. But that is the way I would sort of

attack this.

MR. CARLSON: I think that the idea is we have

categories of signage. Then after we define those

categories, every sign gets, you know, assigned to one

or more of those categories.

There are thousands of signs. If you look at
51

this list that we've got, there were dozens of

examples of signs. And, of course, every day you can

make up a new one. But when you look at it, for

example, just picking out one of these, it says, "do

not sit on bike rack." I don't know if you are going

to have an audible sign that says "do not sit on the

bike rack," but you might need to if it is a problem.

Again, we need to say what type of sign that is,

assign it to a category and once it is assigned to

that category, you know what kind of mode of delivery

you need to have.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is exactly what I was

saying, which is why I needed to understand it. So

thank you for saying that.

MR. CARLSON: Well, you know, we can do that, but

the problem is -- we can go through thousands of signs

and categorize them. I don't think we are here to

categorize signs. Some of the basic ones, yes, but

not every possible combination of words is going to be

able to do that.

At some point in the future if someone makes up a

sign, they are going to have to decide what kind of

sign is it and therefore decide what delivery mode of

all the modes that are going to be required. And, of

course, this is going to be working backwards because
52

you are already going to know what kind of vehicle it

is. So you are going to look at a commuter rail

operation and say, "I need to put up a sign. What do

I need to do in order to make it accessible, according

to the code and these regulations?"

So at some point you are going to need to know

that it is a variable message sign, therefore it has

audio and visual components to it.

If it is a sign that says -- you know, direction

sign or a menu, you are not going to have menus and

directory kind of things on a commuter rail operation.

But every sign will need to be assigned to a category

at some point. But I don't think that we can begin to

do that with all the possible signs. But we need to

identify the category of signs and what they mean and

examples -- not every possible combination of signs

that would fit into that category -- in order to get

some understanding about what we are talking about.

Just as an example, I don't understand exactly

what a designation sign for element would be. I mean,

when I think "elements" I'm thinking of lead, gold,

iron, copper, things like that. But, you know, there

are other kinds of elements, of course, but I'm not

sure what type of elements we are talking about in a

rail operation.
53

MR. PECHT: I can explain that, what I was

thinking when we get to that, if you want.

MR. CARLSON: Yeah. Just generally speaking, we

need to define these particular categories so that

when someone is just reading it in the very robust

codes that are going to come out of it, they can say,

"Oh, yeah, that is an element and I can identify all

the other possibilities of what I think of as an

element."

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That was all I was saying.

I also read it the same way. I don't know what --

that is actually funny you mentioned it because that

was one of the words I was stuck on, what was element,

I don't know. I don't know how we do this and I think

photographs and some audio description for people who

are blind and visually impaired. I need to see a

photo of this so I fully understand what the sign is.

Because even with the word description, my definition

of what a sign is -- and I agree whoever said, I don't

need the sign for "don't put your feet here" unless we

see it is a problem and I hope then we don't have so

much audio overload.

But my concern is there are some signs that

really can transcend into two categories, both appears

to be called the stagnate sign category but it can
54

also change. I think maybe if we show some photos,

then it would allow us, for people who use photos --

not for the people who don't -- to understand what is

happening.

And I think, you know, while we are doling with

disabilities, I think it is important that while one

disability may not be able to use something, we are

also appreciative of people who don't have that

disability of needing that other type of access and we

don't preclude one for the other. And I don't know

how we get to that step, but I use visual.

CHAIR PACHECO: Jim, could you tell us what you

meant by "elements"?

MR. PECHT: I was thinking in terms of your auto

rail car, on the wall there is a door with a handle

and there is a sign on that that says "fire

extinguisher." That is a designation of an element.

Now, you can call it a label and say it is not a sign

or you can call it a sign and say it is a designation

of an element. Either way, that is what I was

thinking.

MR. SLAUGHTER: When I look at some of those

things, for example, because of the nature of rail

cars -- and Amtrak is in the unenviable position of

having lots of different kinds of services. But where
55

we have things in restrooms and bedrooms and things,

quite often an item that is maybe commonly in one

place in a building, we may have to put somewhere that

is a little different. So we identify things like

soap and paper towels. And in some of our cars where

it is not obvious, we have gone the step of making it

a tactile sign because it may not be at all readily

apparent by the shape of things or any normalcy

compared to buildings, where things are. So we try to

bridge the gap there.

In other places we may have things where it is

perfectly logical, the sink is here, the paper towels

are here, the soap is here. So you wouldn't need that

level of description.

For us, honestly, regardless of what comes out of

the committee, we will always have to look at some of

those things and make sure we fill in the gaps of

information. So we may choose to do things that are

not required by the law as we move forward.

I think we need to lay down the minimums or maybe

the ideal and go from there. So that is the kind of

thing I think of as an element, along with other

devices that are not emergency related. They are just

sort of in a weird place that maybe doesn't exist on

buildings.
56

MR. PECHT: Yeah, it's up to the committee about

how they want to tackle the different types of signs

and how they want to make the requirements.

Brings up another issue. Maybe do you want

everything cast in stone or do you want to give people

a little leeway with what you're doing. In other

words, menus and directories are not really covered at

all and they are actually exempted in the building

standard because they have a tendency to change, they

have a tendency to be large or very small and can't be

made large. So it may be that you want to require the

menus and directories part to be visual to the extent

practical. In other words, you give them at least a

little something. You don't say maybe directional

signs has to be like this, period, done. Menus

because of the nature of them, you meet the visual

requirements to the extent practicable.

So there are various ways of attacking this and

looking at it. The category is there. You can sort

of say it's a good idea, it's a bad idea, let's throw

it out. It was put out for discussion.

CHAIR PACHECO: I think it has gone -- I think we

all feel that what you did was very helpful and it is

a good place for us to jump off from.

MR. PECHT: So would you like to start with the
57

first category directional signs and talk about it?

MR. MALDARI: I think that would be a good idea.

And if anybody is unclear about a particular type of

sign applies to that category or not, that would be a

good time to talk about it before we decide how it is

going to be displayed.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Can we discuss some examples

of -- I'm looking at the list and I'm not really clear

when you say "directional sign" what that means.

Because if it is the word "exit," from a hearing

perspective it doesn't need to be audible.

By the way, I don't know what VMS means at the

top of the category.

MR. PECHT: Variable message sign. Those are the

electronic signs that move.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Okay, but there is no

category here. If there is a tactile and visual and

visual there is nothing for audible in the categories.

I think we need to add an additional column for

audible. And I don't know if you want a separate

column for the word "induction loop." It goes in, but

as a perspective consideration for that.

But if it is a directional sign in terms of "get

off at the back door for this stop," because I know on

Amtrak some doors open for some stations and some open
58

for other stations, then that has to be audible. I'm

not clear what type of sign that is.

MS. HAMLIN: Can I offer a suggestion? I'm

thinking that maybe what the problem is is that we

have a bunch of categories -- what we really want to

do is look at it in two different ways. We want to

look at the static signs and we want to look at

dynamic signs. I think we want to take the same list

and look at dynamic signs.

So what I would suggest is maybe we should put at

the top "static signs" and then go down this list.

And maybe we should do that now for the people who are

already real clear, some of the people who are clear,

but I agree with somebody to maybe get an example on

that. And then give us a chance and send those

visuals to the people here with hearing loss or if you

want to do it for the whole group, if we can somehow

do it -- I don't know how to get a hold of visual

description. And then have a separate meeting, just

look at dynamic signs.

MR. PECHT: I'm going to tell you right now you

are going to have to send it to everybody and it is

going to have to be accessible to everybody.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, can you define "accessible"?

Okay. Let's say there was an exit sign with an arrow
59

on it, would that be a verbal description of that

sign?

MR. PECHT: Yes. It's basically a text

descriptor, an all text or all tag or it is a verbal

audible descriptor.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Okay.

MR. CARLSON: I would suggest in order to put the

categories together in that top column there that we

take the column that says "rail type" and change that

to "audible." If we are going to put letters in the

other columns we don't need rail type there and

"audible" would be the category of sign, directional

sign, does or doesn't need to be audible.

CHAIR PACHECO: Actually, I was going to make the

same suggestion only with the VMS because we talked

about that making a line. But I think you are right,

I think we should have -- audible absolutely should be

up there.

MR. CARLSON: I would ask the question does

"audible" automatically require induction loop or is

that something that could be one or the other but not

necessarily both?

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think we should separate

it because there may be a time where we want to

separate it and I'm not sure yet. And I think it will
60

allow us to have that room to make a decision.

MR. CARLSON: Okay. I would agree with that. So

I would say take the column of "VMS" and change it to

"induction loop" and put a row in that says "variable

message signs."

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I would suggest we just put

"induction loop" and maybe "audible" and "induction

loop," those two columns next to each other so we can

quickly see which we are putting and which we are not.

MR. CARLSON: Okay. Move "not required" to the

far right --

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Exactly. My whole thing is

keeping it organized so we know where we stop and

start.

MR. CARLSON: I would agree with that. Anybody

else?

MR. MALDARI: I think the VMS as a new category

is a good thing.

What I'm getting a little bit confused about is,

it seems very clear what about a variable message

sign, you want to have an audio and visual component

of it. That seems, you know, pretty straightforward

that when the message is changing you need to provide

it in both modes.

What is confusing, I guess to me, when we look
61

through this list, most of these are static signs. I

know Blair said before, there may be a few static

signs in here that shouldn't just be static and that's

true.

But I think somebody mentioned it before, if we

had a list for static signs and had a separate list

for VMS signs, it may be a better way of separating

the two. Because one clearly lends itself to audio

and visual and the other one doesn't. And maybe you

take some out of the static and you have to put them

in the dynamic. But having the two categories

separate, it seems to me, it makes it a lot easier to

understand how to categorize the types of signs you

are going to put on and the information you are going

to provide.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I agree with that. My only

concern is there seems to be a recent shift that I'm

noticing in New York. I don't know what is going on

in the country, where you are having directional signs

that are becoming, I guess you call them VMS signs

that maybe previously were not. Maybe static in some

parts of the country, but VMS in other parts of the

country. And my concern is maybe falling between the

cracks there and making sure that we don't lose signs

there.
62

And that's when a -- I don't know how to manage

that and that is where, you know -- that is why I want

to go through the categories and I understand someone

explaining this to me so that -- I can read this list

and I can go through as we are on the phone because I

did only receive the list five minutes prior.

For example, there are some of the signs that are

not clear to me which -- like "emergency only, push to

talk." Does that say "emergency only push to talk,"

there is something -- that is not a great example.

I'm not clear on some of these signs. If they don't

say the word "prerecorded" or "audible" or something,

I don't know if they should be going forward.

I wish I was more knowledgeable on the rail sign

situation. That is why for me I thought having a

photograph -- and I understand how that impacts the

visual impairment -- people who use visual

impairments, but I need to see a photograph of what

people are talking about because I'm not sure if we

are comparing apples and oranges. I may think one

thing and somebody may think another thing and when I

see it I may say, "Oh, okay, that is a no-brainer."

MR. SLAUGHTER: For the sake of time and having a

discussion about changing some of the designations and

columns and things like that, would it be worthwhile
63

if we stepped out through the list -- I'm going the

make a wild stab here and say that Amtrak probably has

more signs than anybody else. And if we go down

through the list -- and I'm glad to read through the

list and give you what I think that sign is and give

you a real world idea what that is and if it is not

understood or maybe is too narrow, I'll try to expand

on it or maybe someone else can. And then we say,

"Yeah, that information, really there is no use to

present it in any other format" or just for the sake

of going through and maybe explaining some of these

things. Would that be worthwhile at all?

CHAIR PACHECO: I think it would be very helpful.

MR. SLAUGHTER: All right.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: That is what I was asking

for from the beginning so for me, yes.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm going to make a broad

statement here. I think we all agree a whole lot more

than we know. And I'm going to leave it at that and I

think everyone really wants to do a better job here.

With that said, I will start with the first one,

directional signs. I would consider a directional

sign -- and it says includes exit sign -- as anything

that points you in a direction of an existing thing,

like a door or a restroom or something that is not
64

going to move or change, so you know where those

things are.

MR. MALDARI: But that is pointing you in a

direction to distinguish it from the destination sign.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes, it is. It is pointing you

in a direction.

The exit with an arrow would be a directional

sign. But exit as a static sign would be a

destination sign.

MR. PECHT: There are two types of exit signs I

put in here. One is a directional, "exit that way"

with an arrow or "the exit is located at the end of

the car," or "the emergency exit window is in the

middle of the car." Those are things telling you

direction to go find stuff, as opposed to you are at

the door, you are at the exit, there is a sign that

says "exit, this is it." That is a destination. Does

that clarify it?

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes.

MR. MALDARI: That is very good. The parenthesis

help. I was trying to figure it out. I just wanted

to clarify.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Extraordinarily helpful.

<<<:

MR. SLAUGHTER: Does anyone think that that needs
65

to be more than visual?

CHAIR PACHECO: It certainly may need to be,

depending on the type of vehicle.

MS. HAMLIN: Sometimes, for example, if you have

a VMS and it is an emergency and they have the

capability of saying "go out the exit this way," in

other words, have the little pointing sign that says

instead of exiting on the right, you exit on the left.

So it could be both visual and audible at that point.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Say we don't move the VMS column

but we, if we went to the VMS column, would we put

that in where used or if used it would also -- you

would have a VMS -- if there is a VMS system on the

train, do you include that information as part of the

system?

MR. MALDARI: I think that is why breaking up VMS

as a separate category is important. Because if you

are doing a variable message, you are providing it

visually and you also want to provide it audibly. So

you should be able to do that or you can at least try

to do that. But when you have a static sign, it is

very hard, if you think about it, to make an arrow on

an exit sign an audible message to anybody because it

is dependent upon where you are. So how could you do

that?
66

So that is why I'm saying, the VMS is a separate

category and when you are able to provide a variable

message, I would think you would want to provide it in

both modes, audible and visual. And it seems

reasonable you could do that.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes. There are going to be some

situations where it is going to be -- depending on the

rail type, that is going to be more relevant than

others. Rail modes are going to include, as time goes

forward, if we don't already, a lot of that sort of

information about moving people on and off vehicles as

quickly and safely as possible.

In some cases with, say, a long distance train

that may be not as -- may be a sign that is used only

once in a great while. May not always be applicable

to each mode.

MR. MALDARI: One of the things we run into with

VMS signs is when you have quick station stops, you

can only provide so much information. I mean, if you

are trying to provide a lot of information you can

provide it in text quicker than you can provide it in

speech. You try to do as much as you can, but you

have to be flexible in the way you are specifying it

to allow some opportunity to have some variation in

that, otherwise you lock someone into doing it a
67

certain way and you can't do it at all.

Getting back to what we were talking about,

directional signs, from the point of view of visual, I

think, in my opinion, it is hard to do it any other

way as a static sign. Even trying to envision it, I

can't. But if somebody has an idea of how you can

provide an arrow with an exit sign audibly, I would

like to hear it because I don't see how it can be

done.

MR. HOFF: I have an idea. For some of the signs

that are simplistic and really just give orientation

type direction, as Jim Pecht earlier mentioned, as to

where the exits are, where the bathrooms are, just a

general orientation, there may be various means in

which that information is communicated. It could be

by a rail crew member if you need orientation or if

you like to explain how the car is laid out, for

pressure signal I will come over and explain it or it

could be an auxillary audible system on board one can

tap into by various means and we talked about it in an

earlier meeting.

So I agree with Frank, it is very difficult to

say where I'm going to put a directional sign, to give

that kind of information, but perhaps we do it audibly

or in ways we have not previously done.
68

CHAIR PACHECO: One of the things, we may not

want to use it very often, but there are other methods

of making a sign audible that is audible locator

tones, like are used on accessible pedestrian signals

now where there is a ticking sound to let you know

that this is where you press the button for the

pedestrian access. That type of thing is a

possibility in some situations too.

MR. CARLSON: You know, a couple of technologies

that have not really fully been implemented, but have

been fully tested, one system is called "Talking

Signs." It uses an analog infrared signal that needs

a receiver, but it is highly directional and a person

who is blind can use that and point it at the sign and

get the information off of it as they walk by and it

is a remote sensing system. It has never been

required anywhere, but a number of places have done it

and I have watched people navigate through multi-level

rail stations utilizing this system and being able to

find everything there is.

One of the biggest interesting things that a

participant said, "I never knew that there was a phone

booth down here" until he happened to notice it when

he scanned across and found that there was a phone

booth in the distance.
69

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I'm just confused. How

would you distribute a device like that to somebody in

a rail station that is in a transient setting?

MR. CARLSON: Well, this is one of the reasons

why it has never been required before, but people --

you know, in the early days a few people had

cellphones and none of them had screens on them. Now

just about everyone of them does. So it would have to

be something that the participant, the person who

needs it would need to get the device from the transit

system and utilize it. If they are going to be in a

commuter setting, they would keep it. If they operate

running with a single trip -- you need some training

in how to use it as of today.

But 10 years from now people who are blind may

have that as a standard piece of equipment as of just

one of their many ways of getting that information.

CHAIR PACHECO: We have actually been using those

in some of the national conventions of blind people

for a dozen years now. Ward Bond usually comes and

demonstrates it and people do use it for a long time.

That is another one. I guess the point we are getting

at is there are a multitude of ways of doing some of

these things.

If there is enough interest in it, perhaps we
70

could plan a presentation or two on some of the

alternatives that we could come up with for signage in

general.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: While that may work in a

theater type setting and we see infrared systems

in Broadway shows, in transient settings it's

impossible. My understanding of the ADA, you can't

require people to bring devices with them. People

don't have the room to carry devices with them. They

don't always know they are going to be in the place

where they end up. That is why movie theaters are

required -- because technically you can bring your

infrared device to a movie theater, but, let's say

your friend says, "Hey, let's go to the movie," what

are you supposed to say, "Oh, I forgot my device"?

And you can't do it in a transient setting. Infrared

does not work in transient settings whatsoever and

that is why it has not taking -- it doesn't work in a

transient setting.

There is a question also whether people who are

not visually impaired, the difference also between

people who are visually impaired or blind versus

people who are hard of hearing, you know, people who

are hard of hearing are already wearing devices on

their ears and receivers and that's why they prefer
71

induction loops because they don't want to wear an

additional device. The people who are blind and

visually impaired are not wearing hearing aids, they

don't have receivers, therefore they need to wear a

receiver. So there is some conflict there on that

topic because of that. But you can't require people

to bring -- I'm pretty sure it violates the ADA.

CHAIR PACHECO: The thing is you wouldn't need to

require it -- that is what I was saying -- in specific

instances. Perhaps it might be something that would

be helpful in a sleeping car on an Amtrak train for

the various features and services in the sleeping car.

I don't know. I'm just thinking that is a possibility

where Amtrak could provide it for someone using one of

those facilities.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Terry, currently Amtrak is

working on an onboard information system that we

haven't even defined all the capabilities we are

expecting of it because we know -- we are trying to

plant a foundation for lots of expandability and

flexibility over time.

One of the things we talked about is delivering

information on demand to folks from that system. So

maybe you can have an audible description -- and I

will give an example.
72

If the car attendant shows you to your room and

gives you a description of the room and they will do

that, but if most folks' memory is anything like mine,

five minutes later I'm going, "Where did he say this

was?" And this is where we are thinking, well, if we

have audible information that replicates the visual

information because we have information cards for the

rooms and other signs and things, that you have that.

You can call on it anytime. We don't have that today

but we certainly anticipate in the future we will have

the ability to provide those kinds of things.

MR. PECHT: I'm hoping you will -- the committee

will keep that in mind as they go through this. There

are other technologies that can provide information,

web-based, Smart Phones, that will have nothing to do

with signs but do a good job of getting information to

people. I would like to hope we sort of concentrate

on the sign part of it, which is what the subcommittee

is about. But understand that maybe a sign in a

certain manner in a certain thing is not necessary

because it can be provided in another format. It may

be we want to look at general communication stuff, but

maybe not in signage.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, to that point if we consider

a directional sign, for example, if you go downstairs
73

in one of our sleeping cars, it is bilevel and there

is a sign on the wall that points to Rooms A-D and it

points in the other direction to Rooms 5, 6, 7 and 8

or something or restrooms. Right now that sign, oddly

enough, is not braille, is not tactile, it is just a

flat sign.

Now, in my way of thinking, that is a sign -- and

it is my railroad. That is a sign that would be

beneficial to be tactile as well as visual, and it is

a directional sign, it is pointing you to an element.

It is not the place itself but it is guiding you the

right way. Like a hotel, you go to the right wing of

the hotel instead of the wrong wing.

MR. PECHT: This goes back to how do you find it

if it is tactile.

My thinking is if you are going to require

something to be tactile, you can require it to be

tactile, you can require it to have braille but you

are also going to have to require it to be in a

specific location.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Right.

MR. PECHT: You have to specify that location.

It's always going to have to be to the right of the

entrance door or just inside the car or it is always

going to be next to the door for the toilet room. You
74

have to specify specifically where that sign is going

to be. Otherwise if it is not in a consistent

location, if you just allow people to put it up

wherever they want to, you are not going to find it.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Jim, I'm with you there. And, of

course, then you get back into the oddities of the

railroad. There'll be situations where there is no

wall to the right of the restroom door because of how

it is configured.

MR. PECHT: Exactly.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Now it is a transverse wall

instead of a wall that is in the same plane as the

door. So, yeah, I mean, that is part of what makes

the business as difficult as it is. That is why we

can't go out to the sign stores and buy the same signs

you use in a building. Everything we do is unique and

custom.

But I say that because everything we do is unique

and custom, it gives us a lot of leeway to make things

differently than you would in a building.

So there is part of me that would really like to

have some sort of optional on the tactile and visual

on some of these signs. And, I don't know, maybe it

is best, again, if we just leave things -- if the

group thinks something is okay visual, that's fine.
75

And, again, if we make a decision determining we want

to do something more, I guess that is okay too.

MR. MALDARI: In line with what Blair is saying,

I agree. The point you want to make you need to have

a minimal level that has to be tactile. You can have

the other ones. When you can make them, you will.

The ones that have to be, that is where you need to

identify where they are, otherwise they are not going

to be found.

As he points out, if there is a sign and we can

make it tactile and it makes sense, we will do it in

the hope someone will find it but it is not required

to be. Because a singular location is not always

available for that equipment.

When I look at a rail car it seems obvious you

should have a tactile sign for the bathroom because

you need to be able to find that. And you can have

the sign, thinking only on our car, within two or

three areas that should be applicable around the

different fleets. So you give three options for

location, but still require it to be tactile. There

are others where you are not really sure you can make

a tactile sign fit in the space available.

When we get to the next one, which is where the

tactile comes up, any ones that are specifically
76

required, we need to identify maybe one or two

locations so that there is some flexibility, but it

has to be an identified location.

MR. SLAUGHTER: So are we okay to leave the first

one, directional signs, as visual only for now and

step to the next one?

CHAIR PACHECO: I would like to see us have

tactile and visual on that, especially for finding

locations. You know, I'm thinking particularly like

your example of Rooms 1-4 at one end and the restrooms

are at the other end, that is pretty important

information to somebody, or that the cafe car is the

next one up or this is the quiet car or what have you

on the other ones.

Depending on somebody to always tell you what

something says visually, first of all, is not a good

practice, secondly, is highly unlikely and, thirdly,

is extremely demeaning in it just totally does away --

it does so much damage to anyone's sense of

independence.

MR. SLAUGHTER: And I was just going to say, the

key here for any signs, regardless of any one person's

situation, is to communicate the information so people

can utilize the vehicles and the service.

To your point, having to ask about something
77

takes away from your independence. And I think,

again, that is a key element here and that is for

everyone.

I have been on trains and watched people who are

not blind but (inaudible) pushing everything you could

imagine on the end door of the car to try to make the

door open, except the device that had the sign on it

that said "press." And they pressed everything on

that door except that button.

So it is -- and I sat there and watched it and I

said I missed something here. Somehow I managed to

put -- that sign is wrong. What can I do to make that

better.

I would agree with that generally. If there is a

sign that is a fixed sign and it is pointing toward

something that is not moving, like where the restroom

is or where a sleeping compartment is, I think that is

a critical way-finding element, at least it is on my

trains. I don't want to speak for the commuter

agencies.

As cars get bigger and smaller some of those

things become less relevant.

MR. MALDARI: As far as directional signs, we

don't have a directional sign that says where the

bathroom is, other than a sign on the bathroom door.
78

And the only other directional sign that I'm thinking

of is the exit signs. And for me it is kind of hard

to envision how that is going to work if you can't

find them. Because we have some that are on the

ceiling pointing toward the window. We have others

that are down near floor level in case of a smoke

condition.

So, you know, if you require them all to be made

that way, that is the thing -- there are applications

where you may be able to do it and it may make sense

and there are other applications where it doesn't make

sense.

If you require them all to be done tactile, then

you are creating a problem. The sign from the ceiling

now has to be significantly bigger to make all the

requirements and now it gets in the way of the person

walking through. Right now it is a very small compact

sign.

MR. SLAUGHTER: To that point, some of the signs

that you mentioned like that exit sign that is at the

ceiling, comes at another level of requirement from

the FRA or through APTA. And really the way it was

defined, I don't think gave any real consideration for

accessibility.

The exit sign (inaudible) are indoors, actual
79

door that is the exit into another space or to the

outside is a large tactile sign. Tactile in raised

letters and in braille.

MR. MALDARI: That sign makes sense to me and

that is the other thing I was thinking about. That

sounds like a good -- we should identify where it

needs to be so it is easier to find and give some

allowance considering we have rather large windows on

our side doors and some other equipment has smaller

windows.

If you give it a range of location -- this is the

other thing I was thinking about. Sometimes we have

exit signs on the side walls adjacent to the side

doors but when you find a sign that says "exit," you

expect to go in the direction of the sign, not

90-degrees from the sign, I would think. That's why

I'm thinking an exit sign on the door, you are going

to go through the sign to exit. That would be one

where having a braille and raised lettering makes

sense, whereas one on the side wall might be

confusing.

CHAIR PACHECO: Does your one on the side wall

have an arrow?

MR. MALDARI: No.

CHAIR PACHECO: Then why isn't it confusing to
80

someone who sees it?

MR. MALDARI: Because you see the door is

directly adjacent to it.

CHAIR PACHECO: Oh, okay. All right. But we

could potentially be talking about a location issue.

MR. MALDARI: That is why I say put an exit sign

on a side door and have raised lettering in braille

and that is where you put it. That should be good for

everybody. Somebody puts additional signs on the

wall, that should be okay too.

That is what I'm saying. If you make the minimum

requirement that there is a designation of an exit and

you do it in this manner, then you can always add

more, but at least the person has information that

they need.

CHAIR PACHECO: I believe that is kind of where

we are going with relatively minimal requirements. At

some point I'm going to talk about -- perhaps further

down the road, talk about some best practices which

might be where something like that would come into --

I hate to break this up because I think we are

doing some really positive -- and I wish we could stay

on for two more hours and I know some people would

want to shoot me for saying that, probably. But it is

getting on a bit and we do have a couple of more
81

things we just got to take care of before the gong

goes off at 3:00. One of which is now that we have

got ourselves moving in a good direction, I would like

to propose that we all do a little bit of homework and

take the chart and the list and the thoughts that we

have from this, put your own thoughts together, be it

on the -- preferably on the chart that Jim has given

us, with notes you have and send them in and let us

all look at them and see where we can go so we can

really get a lot of this accomplished in the next

meeting.

Which brings me to the point we need to schedule

another meeting for this committee.

MR. PECHT: Terry, before we go to that, can we

ask for public comment at this time.

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. I reversed and I was

going to do it afterward.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Before we get to public

comment, can I respond to what she just said. I would

love to provide input and I share what Lise said in

terms of audible, but I do need photographs of what we

are talking about and I need to understand what we are

talking about because I don't know the differences

between these signs and seeing the words for me is

meaningless. Not trying to be difficult. I would
82

just like some visual representation of what these

signs -- I don't know what they are. I'm not in the

sign business.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm going to try to do us all a

favor. At the next meeting time at the halfway point,

I will provide (inaudible) -- Terry, tell me if this

is okay. I will provide a visual sample of a sign and

a written description of that sign that I am fine to

have distributed. It will be an Amtrak sign. It will

be one that applies to each of these categories that I

have access to a sign. Is that okay? I think that

might be a good step forward.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: I think that would be

(inaudible) and I appreciate you taking the time to do

that. Thank you.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I will say this. I probably

don't have the time but I will find someone here who

does.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: Thank you for having the

staff who will do it, the intern who will do that.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Well, we don't have any. We are

all up to our eyeballs in stuff, I understand. But I

think that for the sake of moving forward, it would be

a worthwhile exercise and I would obligate to have

that at the halfway point between now and whenever we
83

establish the next meeting, as long as it is not

Monday.

CHAIR PACHECO: Thank you, ever so much, Blair.

And if I can give you a hand with it, since I do

alternate formats and stuff, I would be more than

happy to.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I would love you to be my checker

to make sure I have done the right thing.

CHAIR PACHECO: I will do that.

Jim, who said -- you want to do public comments

next.

MR. PECHT: I think it is probably a good idea.

CHAIR PACHECO: Okay. Do we have anyone with us

who does want to make any comments from the general

public this afternoon?

Going once. No one on the (inaudible). Hearing

none then I guess we will move along to a suggested

date for our next session.

Does Thursday seem to be working well for folks?

Is that the consensus of the group?

MR. MALDARI: Thursday has worked good, I think,

except for all the fact that all of March is booked

with the other subcommittees.

CHAIR PACHECO: I don't think the 7th or 14th

are.
84

MR. PECHT: 14th is Friday.

MR. MALDARI: I think the Thursday format is a

good --

CHAIR PACHECO: I'm sorry. I looked at my

calendar wrong. It was six and 13. I'm sorry.

MS. SCHACTER LINTZ: This works for Janice, if it

work for everybody else.

MR. CARLSON: Works for me.

MR. MALDARI: Should depend on Blair pulling the

visual formats. We can't ask for something

complicated and give him a short lead.

CHAIR PACHECO: That is why I'm thinking of the

13th.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I would look for the 13th myself.

CHAIR PACHECO: Does the Access Board have any

issue with the 13th?

MR. PECHT: I don't.

CHAIR PACHECO: Hearing none. Then why don't we

schedule the next conference call for March 13. Same

time and station. Time and station? I'm doing well.

Again 1:00 to 3:00 and I'm sure Paul will be in touch

with all of us about the arrangements for it.

I would just like to take a minute and thank

everyone. I'm sorry if people felt that I went over

the top, I guess. It is one of those
85

positive/negatives, negative/positives that does tend

to happen sometimes with advocates, maybe a little

more so because issues are things that we live with on

a daily basis.

I'm glad that we have gotten as far as we have

this afternoon. I think we have all had a chance to

air a lot of what we needed to and I just want to

thank you all and if anyone is offended I do apologize

for that. But other than that, I thank you all and

hope you all have a great couple of weeks.

And, Blair, I will definitely be in touch with

you and the other people I was supposed to work with

on our sub subcommittee. I will definitely be in

touch with you probably over the weekend. And thank

you all, very much, for a very productive meeting.

<<<: Thank you.

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MS. SESKER: This concludes our meeting. Please

disconnect all lines.

(Whereupon, at 2:58 p.m. the

meeting was adjourned)