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28–449 2007

TRANSITION ASSISTANCE FOR MEMBERS OF ACTIVE DUTY RESERVE AND NATIONAL GUARD, AND EDUCATION BENEFITS 

FOR THE TOTAL MILITARY FORCE 

FIELD HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 19, 2006 

HEARING HELD AT ELLSWORTH AFB, RAPID CITY, SOUTH DAKOTA 

Serial No. 109–53 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

STEVE BUYER, Indiana, Chairman 

MICHAEL BILIRAKIS, Florida 

TERRY EVERETT, Alabama 

CLIFF STEARNS, Florida 

DAN BURTON, Indiana 

JERRY MORAN, Kansas 

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana 

HENRY E. BROWN, Jr., South Carolina 

JEFF MILLER, Florida 

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas 

JEB BRADLEY, New Hampshire 

GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN CAMPBELL, California 

LANE EVANS, Illinois, Ranking 

BOB FILNER, California 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida 

VIC SNYDER, Arkansas 

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine 

STEPHANIE HERSETH, South Dakota 

TED STRICKLAND, Ohio 

DARLENE HOOLEY, Oregon 

SILVESTRE REYES, Texas 

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada 

TOM UDALL, New Mexico 

JOHN T. SALAZAR, Colorado 

JAMES M. LARIVIERE, Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman 

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana 

GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida 

JOHN CAMPBELL, California 

STEPHANIE HERSETH, South Dakota, 

Ranking 

DARLENE HOOLEY, Oregon 

LANE EVANS, Illinois 

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C O N T E N T S 

June 19, 2006 

Page 

Transition Assistance for Members of Active Duty Reserve and National 

Guard, and Education Benefits for the Total Military Force ........................... 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Chairman John Boozman ........................................................................................ 1 

Prepared statement of Chairman Boozman ................................................... 37 

Hon. Stephanie Herseth, Ranking Democratic Member ...................................... 2 

WITNESSES 

Aune, Chief Master Sergeant Clyde W., Command Chief, 28th Bomb Wing, 

Ellsworth Air Force Base, Rapid City, SD ......................................................... 4 

Prepared statement of Chief Master Sergeant Aune .................................... 42 

Brown, John L., South Dakota District Director, U.S. Small Business Administration ................................................................................................................. 27 

Prepared statement of Mr. Brown .................................................................. 70 

Fillman, William, Director, Central Area, Veterans Benefits Administration, 

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs ................................................................. 29 

Prepared statement of Mr. Fillman ................................................................ 74 

Gerlach, Andy, Deputy Secretary, South Dakota Department of Military and 

Veterans Affairs, and Major, South Dakota Army National Guard, on behalf 

of Major General Mike Gorman, Adjutant General, South Dakota National 

Guard, and Secretary, South Dakota Department of Military and Veterans 

Affairs .................................................................................................................... 10 

Prepared statement of Major Gerlach ............................................................ 51 

Kolden, Todd, Veterans’ Services State Coordinator, South Dakota Department of Labor, on behalf of Pamela Roberts, Secretary, South Dakota 

Department of Labor ........................................................................................... 14 

Prepared statement of Mr. Kolden .................................................................. 57 

McClung, Captain Chennel, Officer in Charge of Personnel Employments 

and Relocations, 28th Mission Support Squadron, Ellsworth Air Force Base, 

Rapid City, SD ...................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement of Captain McClung ....................................................... 40 

McNulty, David, Director for Veterans Employment and Training for Wyoming, U.S. Department of Labor, on behalf of Earl R. Schultz, State Director—South Dakota, Veterans’ Employment and Training Service, U.S. Department of Labor ................................................................................................ 25 

Prepared statement of Mr. Schultz ................................................................. 64 

Mitchell, Staff Sergeant Ann M., United States Air Force, Ellsworth Air 

Force Base, Rapid City, SD ................................................................................. 6 

Prepared statement of Staff Sergeant Mitchell ............................................. 49 

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IV 

Moore, Karen, Core Compliancy Manager, Transition Assistance Program, 

Family Support Center, Ellsworth Air Force Base, Rapid City, SD ................ 12 

Prepared statement of Ms. Moore ................................................................... 54 

Summerside, George W., Veterans Education Program Specialist, South Dakota State Approving Agency .............................................................................. 17 

Prepared statement of Mr. Summerside ........................................................ 59 

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(1) 

TRANSITION ASSISTANCE FOR MEMBERS OF 

ACTIVE DUTY RESERVE AND NATIONAL 

GUARD, AND EDUCATION BENEFITS FOR 

THE TOTAL MILITARY FORCE 

MONDAY, JUNE 19, 2006 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:10 a.m., at the 28 

Operation Support Squadron Auditorium, 1956 Scott Drive, Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota, Hon. John Boozman (chairman of the 

subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Boozman and Herseth. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. The hearing will come to order. I’m delighted that 

our Ranking Member Stephanie Herseth has invited the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity to visit South Dakota to hear 

from service members and veterans on how well the Transition Assistance Program and the GI Bill are doing. 

Before we begin, I’m sure everyone has heard about the recent 

loss of veterans’ data at the VA. Tomorrow Ms. Herseth and I will 

hold a hearing to find out what effect that loss might have on the 

benefits programs under our jurisdiction. I want to assure each of 

you that we will do everything possible to minimize the damage 

that might have been done. I wish we could guarantee veterans 

that they will not be affected, but that is not yet to be determined. 

In the meantime, I urge each veteran to check their credit files, 

watch their monthly statements very closely, and take aggressive 

action if something appears amiss. 

If you have access to the Internet, the Committee website 

www.veterans.house.gov has several links to information and assistance. 

Normally I make our Ranking Member Ms. Herseth listen to me 

as I ramble on about the various things having to do with the programs that we’re going to talk about, but today I just want to say 

that we really do enjoy working with Ms. Herseth. She’s truly been 

a pleasure as our Ranking Member. The Veterans Affairs Committee is very bipartisan. We work really hard. Most of us—in fact, 

all of us—have asked to serve on this Committee. It’s not something that we were told, ‘‘You’ve got to do this.’’ Most of us—in fact, 

all of us—like I say, have asked to be on that Committee in an effort to help veterans. We appreciate all that she does for veterans, 

and we’ll turn things over to Ranking Member Herseth. 

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[The statement of Mr. Boozman appears on p. 37.] 

Ms. HERSETH. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for accepting the 

invitation to come to South Dakota. A few months ago, I accepted 

the invitation of Chairman Boozman to join him in the great State 

of Arkansas where we held a hearing similar to this one today, a 

series of hearings we’ve been having at the Subcommittee level to 

evaluate the effectiveness of our Transition Assistance Programs 

for our active duty service members as they transition to civilian 

life, to talk with our leadership of the National Guard and Reserve 

components in our states and other states around the country, to 

talk about the importance of the demobilization process for our 

members of the Guard and Reserve returning home from often 

lengthy deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere 

around the world, as well as gauging the interest in and accepting 

ideas about how to effectively modernize the Montgomery GI Bill 

to meet the needs of active duty servicemen and women, to meet 

the needs of our National Guard and Reservists, and what we do 

to make those benefits more flexible for all of the men and women 

who serve in the Armed Forces as they seek opportunities in the 

civilian sector after they’ve served the country so admirably. 

But it is wonderful to be able to host you here in South Dakota, 

members of your Committee staff that are traveling with you, I 

want to thank our Air Force escorts on the trip in making this a 

time worth everyone’s while here this morning, but also taking advantage of what South Dakota has to offer: The beautiful Black 

Hills and Mt. Rushmore where we were last night. 

And I think that we’re all in agreement, as the Chairman said, 

that this is a very bipartisan full Committee and a very bipartisan 

Subcommittee. I’ve certainly enjoyed working with Chairman 

Boozman on a number of issues under the purview of our jurisdiction, whether it be education, employment, transition, job training, 

other programs to ensure a level of oversight to make them as effective as possible because we know that the young men and 

women who choose to serve in our Armed Forces deserve the very 

best while they’re serving and after they’re serving. So thank you 

for your interest in being here today and we look forward to hearing the testimony of our panelists. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. We’ve had several hearings on transition assistance and the GI Bill including field hearings in New 

Hampshire and Arkansas. Each has provided the Subcommittee 

with additional insights regarding the effectiveness of the programs, especially how they apply to the members of the National 

Guard and Reserves. 

TAP is important in the transition process for both active duty 

members and those in the Selected Reserves. 

We’ve seen that when commanding officers and their State officials make a concerted effort to use TAP to help stabilize the lives 

of their active duty, Guard and Reserve members returning from 

extended active duty, post-deployment problems decrease and retention rates increase. 

Post-deployment issues for the Guard and Reserves are a bit different from those facing the regular forces. In many ways, those 

issues are more difficult because of the dispersion of the unit upon 

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3 

return. In fact, by denying the mutual support of unit members 

with whom members have shared tough times, I believe the current 90-day restriction placed on drilling following extended deployment is a mistake and may foster higher rates of stress-related 

issues such as those involving other family members and risky behavior. I’m looking forward to hearing from officials on how they 

are meeting the needs of their members. 

You may have heard that Steve Buyer, the Chairman of the 

House Veterans Affairs Committee, has expressed his support for 

a modernized GI Bill, and I for one, welcome his initiative. The 

Montgomery GI Bill has served the nation’s veterans well for 20 

years, but with the prospect of continued integration of Guard and 

Reserve forces with the regular military, we need to look at what 

will make that benefit more relevant to today’s operational climate. 

This will likely be a very expensive undertaking, one that will 

probably take some time to do. For those who have not known the 

history of the Montgomery GI Bill, it took seven years to enact it. 

Let’s start with our first panel. First of all, I know some of you 

all will drift in and out and that’s fine to do. I really do want to 

thank everyone for their hospitality. We’ll talk about this a little 

bit later. This is the first time that I’ve been to this part of the 

country for any length of time, and we really had a good time. The 

community’s great. Seeing Mt. Rushmore in the evening, lit up was 

tremendous. The Subcommittee thanks you for your hospitality. It’s 

been great so far. Hopefully it will continue until we get on the 

plane. 

On this panel we have Captain Chennel McClung, Command 

Chief Sergeant Clyde Aune, and Staff Sergeant Ann Mitchell. Let’s 

begin with Captain McClung and we’ll go right down the line. Captain? 

STATEMENT OF CAPTAIN CHENNEL McCLUNG, OFFICER IN 

CHARGE OF PERSONNEL EMPLOYMENTS AND RELOCATIONS, 28th MISSION SUPPORT SQUADRON, ELLSWORTH 

AFB, RAPID CITY, SD 

Captain MCCLUNG. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Committee 

Members. I’m Captain Chennel McClung from the 28 Mission Support Squadron here at Ellsworth, and I’ll start this morning by 

talking about the Transition Assistance Program. 

I went through the Transition Assistance Program after learning 

that I was eligible for this first round of Officer Force Shaping. The 

Air Force is attempting to shorten up their forces and the first 

round of Officer Force Shaping involved the 2002 and 2003 year 

groups of lieutenants. The board convened and the results came out 

in May and fortunately, I was not force shaped out, but I did go 

through the Transition Assistance Program just in case I were to 

be force shaped out and would have to separate this year, and I 

did learn a lot more than I thought I would when I first walked 

in; basically everything from how to do a resume, how to start a 

small business, how I could use my Montgomery GI Bill after getting out, information on home loans, and anything I needed to be 

able to help myself transition from active duty to being a civilian. 

My position is a little bit unique, but not too much. I am married 

to another military member, so I wasn’t worried about things like 

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4 

benefits, health insurance and things like that, but you do grow accustomed to a two-income household. 

So being able to find work after making the transition was a concern of mine, and I am very confident that after going through the 

TAP program, I would not have been out of work long given the 

tools that I picked up from the program. It was very helpful. There 

were about 30-some-odd other people going through at the same 

time that I did, and it seemed to—it seemed to help pretty much 

everyone that was there. 

It’s a great benefit. It really is. 

[The statement of Captain McClung appears on p. 40.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Chief Master Sergeant Aune. 

STATEMENT OF CHIEF MASTER SERGEANT CLYDE W. AUNE, 

COMMAND CHIEF, 28TH BOMB WING, ELLSWORTH AIR 

FORCE BASE, RAPID CITY, SD 

Master Sergeant AUNE. Yes. I really appreciate the opportunity 

to talk with you today about the Transition Assistance Program, 

and I’d like to share a comment or two about the Montgomery GI 

Bill as well. And so we tried to put together, I think, some folks 

up here today representing many different aspects of the military. 

I happen to be the only one of the three of us not married to another military member so I can share that particular side of the 

equation with you. 

In my case, I joined the Air Force 28 years ago, and if we recognize that prior to joining the Air Force, I had only worked in one 

job. That was a job I filled out an application for and was asked 

if I could start that same evening. 

So I sit before you now 46 years old and ready to leave the Air 

Force having never, ever interviewed for a job other than the one 

I currently hold and that’s a military one. I have never written a 

resume. I filled out one application as a high school student and 

that’s the only application I’ve ever filled out in my life. And so if 

you just recognize then that people in my particular situation have 

to count on something like this Transition Assistance Program to 

prepare us for this significant transition into what, for many of us, 

is our first time ever competing for employment in the civilian sector. 

My wife was able to attend with me. My current position dictates 

that my wife attend many functions with me and, as a result, has 

chosen not to be employed during the two years that I’ve spent 

here at Ellsworth, and so she was able to attend the Transition Assistance Program and the three-day briefings with me and came 

away from that with a tremendous amount of information and 

knowledge that I regret, frankly, that every one of our spouses 

could not come away with that same thing. 

And so in spite of the tremendous program that our Family Support Center has put together and puts in front of us here specifically at Ellsworth, were it that I could ask for any improvement 

in this program not specific to Ellsworth, it would be that spouses 

would have the opportunity to attend so that they could also understand the tremendous variety of benefits available to us. 

We were talking up here before we started about retirees we’ve 

all known who tend to pass away a very short time after retiring. 

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5 

In my case working for a supervisor here, a Master Sergeant who, 

11 days after retiring, was walking out to his mailbox and died of 

a heart attack halfway to that mailbox and left a spouse then completely unaware of what benefits she may be entitled to now. 

My wife, like me, took a tremendous amount of notes at the 

Transition Assistance Program seminar and came away from there 

meeting with our Unlisted Spouses Group on Base recommending 

that each and every one of them has to make time, has to take 

time off work, has to arrange for child care such that they also 

could attend and come to understand the tremendous range of benefits that exist. 

Our Transition Assistance Program is just a tremendous three 

days’ worth of information to help us prepare for not only what I’ve 

talked about, filling out applications, resumes, but also conducting 

mock interviews, something many of us have never done in our 

lives, and conducted by human resources people from the surrounding community that can help prepare us for what we will 

face, access to what our veterans’ benefits are and what time lines 

exist that we must be knowledgeable of in order that we don’t sacrifice any of those benefits. 

As an example, I learned for the first time in my life you have 

to enroll for VA healthcare within one year of retirement. I learned 

that you have to convert to Veterans Group Life Insurance within 

four months of retiring or you would have to complete a complete 

physical in order to reapply for the VGLI. And then also applying 

for disability. Having served 28 years, I think very few people 

would serve that length of time and not have some sort of medical 

issues they had incurred during that period of service, and that 

number—or those disabilities, I think, will only increase because of 

our service in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

So learning that we don’t have access to those—or I should say, 

we would not be compensated for those disabilities until the day 

that we apply. This helps us all understand how important those 

time lines are. 

And so a last few comments then about the Montgomery GI Bill. 

I would prefer to speak about the estimated 77,000 of us on active 

duty in the Air Force today that fell between the old GI Bill and 

the new Montgomery GI Bill and entered our Air Force during the 

time I mentioned. The education benefit was VEAP or Veterans 

Education Assistance Program. 

Like many others who came in my same time, we were called together in the Base Theater on this base and counseled by our own 

Education Office that this was not a good benefit and was a benefit 

that we should frankly decline. Being a good airman at that time, 

I knew how to take direction and I did decline as did many of my 

counterparts and will now leave our Air Force without any education benefit. And so my plea would be a recognition of those men 

and women who followed direction given to them by their very 

Education Offices and declined VEAP. 

Thank you. 

[The statement of Chief Master Sergeant Aune appears on p. 42.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Sergeant Mitchell. Thank you. 

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STATEMENT OF STAFF SERGEANT ANN M. MITCHELL, UNITED 

STATES AIR FORCE, ELLSWORTH AIR FORCE BASE, RAPID 

CITY, SD 

Sergeant MITCHELL. Good morning. I’m Staff Sergeant Ann 

Mitchell, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak here today. 

I’ll be sharing a brief summary of my situation and the Transition 

Assistance I have received. 

I have been in the Air Force for seven and a half years and I just 

got back from my fifth deployment. While I was deployed this last 

time to Kyrgyzstan, I was 100 percent sure that I was going to get 

out of the service. I was tired of all the deployments and I was not 

really happy with where I was working. So after talking it over 

with my husband, who is also Active Duty, we decided it would be 

better if I just got out. 

With this decision in mind, I started looking for jobs in the local 

area and I also got scheduled to attend the Transition Assistance 

Program. This class really helped me with all my doubts about getting out. I especially liked the veterans that came in and talked to 

us about numerous topics to include our benefits, resumes, cover 

letters, etc. They also told us that we could go downtown to their 

office for more assistance if we needed. In my opinion, this was an 

excellent class for transitioning people that are getting out of the 

service into civilian life. 

But as time went on, I changed my mind about getting out and 

staying in about a hundred times. I came into the Air Force to go 

to school, to travel around the world, and have a guaranteed paycheck. I just kept thinking about all the great benefits that we 

have in the military, and the more I looked for jobs around here 

as a civilian, the more I was thankful about being in. I guess I’m 

really thankful to have job security, equal opportunity, education, 

and medical benefits, travel opportunities, and the list could go on. 

So I guess this all outweighed my initial decision about getting out 

because I was scared about leaving my family all the time. I guess 

if my husband and I made it through seven deployments already, 

we can make it through anything as long as we keep doing what 

we are doing. 

I am so proud to be in the United States Air Force and to be a 

part of something larger than myself. Thank you again for hearing 

my testimony today. 

[The statement of Staff Sergeant Mitchell appears on p. 49.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank all of you very much. 

Ms. Herseth. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the 

testimony. It brings up a number of questions based on each of 

your separate experiences with TAP. And so if I could start with 

Master Sergeant, do you think in your experience, in your 28 years 

and—well, let me ask you first, how many people participated in 

the seminar with you, because I know that Captain McClung said 

about 30 others participated with her. Is that about the size of the 

group that participated? 

Master Sergeant AUNE. That’s correct, there were 26 in the seminar that my wife and I attended. 

Ms. HERSETH. Okay. And the same with you then, is that 

what—— 

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Sergeant MITCHELL. I was in the same class with Captain 

McClung. 

Ms. HERSETH. All right. Do you think that the TAP program 

should be modified depending on whether or not you’ve been on active duty for 20-plus years or, for four to six years, whether or not 

you have a spouse who’s not also in active duty? Do you think it 

should? Maybe that’s what they did in your case where most of the 

other participants were also transitioning out after 15, 20, 25 years 

or more. Was that the case? Was it sort of adapted to meet the 

needs of longer-serving members of the Air Force? 

Master Sergeant AUNE. Okay. In the TAP seminar we were all 

asked to come in civilian clothing so that there’s a beginning and 

a realization of the fact that it’s time to start thinking about another way of life. And in my personal opinion, there was great 

value in the wide range of the service options. In other words, from 

young folks like her (indicating) to people at my end of the scale 

so that the questions that each of us asked seemed to bring to light 

things that we would not have otherwise considered or thought of. 

So I felt no need or reason to separate or segregate based on time 

of service or retiring at 20-plus years or separating early in your 

career or, frankly, being married to a military member or a civilian 

member. I saw no need to separate whatsoever. In fact, I felt great 

value in all of us being there at the same time. 

Ms. HERSETH. And I noticed some nodding of the heads by the 

two of you, would you agree with that statement? 

Captain MCCLUNG. [Nodding head up and down.] 

Sergeant MITCHELL. [Nodding head up and down.] 

Ms. HERSETH. And then I know you mentioned maybe one way 

to improve it is extending that opportunity to spouses. 

Master Sergeant AUNE. Yes. 

Ms. HERSETH. So as you’re taking the notes and because of the 

wide range of benefits and other information presented over the period of the program, it’s always helpful to have sort of two eyes. 

And so do you think that there are other factors that we could consider as we work with those who administer the TAP program that 

either of the other two witnesses would—a follow-up after a certain 

period of months, being able to talk a little bit about how some of 

the—not so much the resume-writing, but looking through how job 

applications have changed, as information technology has changed 

dramatically as well. Any other thoughts on how we might be able 

to improve the program? 

Sergeant MITCHELL. Well, I think they keep it pretty open as far 

as if you need help, their doors are open, and the veterans downtown are really open with helping everybody. So I don’t think 

there’s any other—I mean, I think it was a great class and they 

covered all aspects. 

Master Sergeant AUNE. My main concern, if we consider the Survivors Benefit Plan, if you’re familiar with this program, the Survivors Benefit Plan requires a spouse’s signature if the active duty 

member is going to decline anything other than the maximum coverage allowed under the Survivors Benefit Plan. So my wife had to 

come with me to our military personnel flight and receive a briefing on the Survivors Benefit Plan, what does that benefit entitle, 

and then if we chose to receive anything less than the maximum 

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benefits, she would have to sign saying she agreed with that decision. 

And yet, that’s important. I think that’s a really good plan, but 

what I’m concerned about is that the access spouses would have to 

the tremendous array of benefits I have earned as a military member which she otherwise would be ignorant to because she’s not a 

military member. We currently do nothing to safeguard her access 

to or knowledge of those benefits. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you. I don’t have further questions at this 

time other than just to acknowledge the point that you made about 

a gap that exists here based on advice given as it related to the 

value of the educational benefit for the 77,000-plus individuals that 

you’ve identified. Geoff and I have talked about this and we know 

that this is an ongoing problem, and we’ll certainly work with the 

Chairman and the Committee staff and the other members on the 

Committee to keep finding ways to address this in light of the situation where you find yourselves now and the importance of receiving—and that really goes to the flexibility of the benefits that are 

provided and how we compensate for some of what happened in the 

transition from the older GI Bill to the change that we made a 

number of years ago. So thank you for your time in that regard. 

Master Sergeant AUNE. Appreciate it. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. We’ve really got an interesting panel because 

we’ve got three kinds of unique situations. We have someone that 

has been in and decided to retire, has made plans; someone else 

that with force reduction, felt like there might be such that you 

might have to separate; and then somebody that had not been in 

as long, but just decided that you needed to get out. And yet, with 

all those disparate motives being there, it seems like the course 

was very beneficial to everybody, so that’s what we like to hear. 

One of the things, as we’ve talked to people, because of your testimony, because of your experience, something I felt like, and I 

don’t want to influence you, but is TAP a program that needs to 

be mandatory in certain periods through people’s careers? One of 

the problems that we’ve heard is that if you take the TAP program 

and you’re not planning on separating right then, then maybe 

there’s a stigma attached as to, such as, why are you doing this? 

What are your thoughts as far as making it such that people are 

encouraged, if not required, but encouraged during various parts of 

their career to take the program rather than when they feel like 

they’re going to separate? 

Captain MCCLUNG. I think it would be a great idea if more people who felt like they may separate or retire at some point were 

encouraged to go to the TAP program, but I think for the most 

part, people are—I didn’t feel a stigma going to the class; you 

know, I’m going to jump ship or get out or anything. It was just, 

kind of protecting myself against not being educated enough to be 

able to fend for myself if I did happen to separate from the service. 

Again, the class was a great benefit. 

To piggyback on the couples attending, I think it’s great. There 

were, I think, two mil to mil couples that were there during our 

class and they seemed to get a lot more out of it. I think if more 

spouses were educated on the benefits that they would get if their 

spouse were to separate or retire from the service, it would help 

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9 

a lot of people. I see so many widows coming in to speak to our 

Casualty Assistance Rep, that their spouse had passed away, had 

been retired for so many years and they declined their benefits, 

and nine out of ten of them will tell you, ‘‘If I knew exactly what 

I was entitled to, I would not have let him or her make that decision.’’ 

Master Sergeant AUNE. I would just like to be clear here, you referred to a stigma attached to attendance at TAP and perhaps a 

negative stigma, like, ‘‘What are you doing,’’ considering perhaps 

some other course of action. The reality is that, I think, in today’s 

Air Force we recognize that many who want to continue serving 

will not be allowed to serve in our Air Force because of the reductions that we are going through. And so there’s no stigma, in my 

opinion, attached to attendance whatsoever. In fact, we highly encourage folks to go twice: One at two years or more out and one 

within the year in which you are separating or retiring. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Well, I appreciate that, we’ve visited with lots of 

different folks in lots of different ranches and that’s not always the 

case. I really like your suggestion. 

Seems like all of you are signing on that, the spouses learn a lot. 

What can we do to make it such that it’s easier for spouses to attend? We live in a very active world and it is tough, sometimes 

with little ones, most of the time working. Do we need to talk about 

some night opportunities or what would be easier for—to make it 

such that we can actually do that? 

Master Sergeant AUNE. Okay. So we currently do what we call 

Heart Link. This is another fantastic program run in our Family 

Support Center. This is to indoctrinate people who are new to our 

Air Force. Primarily that’s our target audience, those who are new 

to our Air Force, and here’s all that’s available on the Base to help 

you get indoctrinated to the military way of life. 

We conduct these in the evenings and then child care is provided 

and so this affords then active duty members and their spouses to 

attend together and know that their children are just down the hall 

being cared for. It seems to me—my wife and I discussed this at 

great length trying to figure out how could we get spouses to this 

TAP seminar because, the reality is most of our spouses work. I 

mean, that’s just the way it is. We’re two-income families today; 

that’s the norm. And with 64 percent of our Air Force—approximately 64 percent of our Air Force married today, that’s the norm 

as well, that we have a lot more spouses than not. 

So evening seminars is the only answer that we could come up 

with that you would have to extend—these were three eight-hour 

days, and so I’m not going to be very successful in three eight-hour 

nights after the spouses have already worked that day and with 

the child care issue. So it would certainly have to be stretched out 

over a longer period, but it seems to me that evenings are the only 

way to ensure the largest number of spouses could attend. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Yesterday, somebody made the comment that you 

recruit the individual and then in trying to encourage, retention, 

you recruit the family. And probably you need to have, it sounds 

like, what you’re doing here is that we almost need the transition 

of the family also rather than just the individual. 

Have you got anything else? 

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10 

Ms. HERSETH. I don’t have anything else. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Is there any other thing that you’d like to add? 

You’ve been very, very helpful. Are there any other changes that 

you’d like for us to consider in the TAP program? We appreciate 

your comments on the GI Bill. Are there any other things that you 

think we should look at or—— 

Master Sergeant AUNE. No, sir. We really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Well, thank you very much for being here. We appreciate your testimony and taking the time to come and share 

with us. It is important and especially, I think that the family and 

the spouse and other things that you’ve given us are very, very important. It sounds like the program here is doing quite well. Thank 

you very much. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Let’s go ahead and have the second panel. With 

us is Mr. Andy Gerlach, the Deputy Secretary of the South Dakota 

Department of Military and Veterans Affairs, Ms. Karen Moore, 

the Community Readiness Consultant and Director of the Transition Assistance Program for Ellsworth Air Force Base; Mr. Todd 

Kolden, the Veterans’ Services State Coordinator for the South Dakota Department of Labor; and finally, Mr. George Summerside, 

the Education Program Representative for the South Dakota Division of Veterans Affairs. Let’s begin with Mr. Gerlach. 

STATEMENT OF ANDY GERLACH, DEPUTY SECRETARY, SOUTH 

DAKOTA DEPARTMENT OF MILITARY AND VETERANS AFFAIRS, AND MAJOR, SOUTH DAKOTA ARMY NATIONAL 

GUARD, ON BEHALF OF MAJOR GENERAL MIKE GORMAN, 

ADJUTANT GENERAL, SOUTH DAKOTA NATIONAL GUARD, 

AND SECRETARY, SOUTH DAKOTA DEPARTMENT OF MILITARY AND VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Mr. GERLACH. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Congresswoman 

Herseth. It’s great to have you in South Dakota, sir. Great to host 

you, and great to always see the Congresswoman. I appreciate the 

opportunity to testify today. In holding this hearing, I think you’re 

going to hear some very good testimony by all groups on issues 

that are important to all of us in South Dakota and veterans. 

I am testifying today on behalf of Major General Mike Gorman, 

Adjutant General for the South Dakota National Guard and Secretary of the Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. My 

name is Andy Gerlach. I’m the Deputy Secretary for the department, a Major in the South Dakota National Guard, and a veteran. 

This morning I would like to share with the Committee information on our Readjustment Program who assists the local War on 

Terror veterans, their families, employers, and South Dakota communities. South Dakota’s outreach effort has been a partnership of 

State government and the Federal government along with the private sector organizations and individuals across South Dakota. 

Since the beginning of the War on Terror, South Dakota has had 

over 5500 new veterans, and our overall veteran population is 

nearing an all-time high. Of the 5500 new veterans, over two-thirds 

are members of the National Guard and Reserves who, after their 

mobilization, have returned to South Dakota to continue their lives. 

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Shortly after the first of our National Guard units was mobilized 

in late 2003, the Department of Military and Veterans Affairs saw 

the need to establish the Readjustment Program for South Dakota’s 

returning veterans. In addition, we recognize the program needed 

to include the service member families, employers, and the communities to which they were returning. 

From this concept, our Readjustment Task Force was established. The Task Force is headed by the Department of Military 

and Veterans Affairs and directs all facets of service member readjustment and transition in South Dakota. Along with the Department of Military and Veterans Affairs, the Task Force includes representation from the State Division of Veterans Affairs, South Dakota National Guard, the State Department of Human Services, 

the South Dakota Council on Mental Health Centers, the Department of Labor in South Dakota, Veterans’ Administration, and the 

Veterans Administration Vet Centers. 

In South Dakota our readjustment effort has been far-reaching 

and begins well before the service member returns home. Teams 

made up of representatives from each of the Task Force organizations provide assistance in the following areas. Family support 

briefings that begin the process and are held prior to the unit returning home. At our family support briefings, we utilize professionals to talk about what to expect in terms of a behavior standpoint for everyone involved. They also provide benefit information 

to the families and points of contact. 

Our demobilization stations are conducted at the active duty 

military post upon the unit’s return. Teams from the Department 

of Military and Veterans’ Affairs, Veterans’ Administration, and 

National Guard travel to the demobilization station for personalized briefings with the soldiers. 

Our welcome home briefs are conducted 30 to 90 days after the 

return of the unit’s—to the unit’s location. Follow-up information 

is presented to reiterate what was stated at the family support and 

demobilization station briefings. Close attention is also paid to specific readjustment issues within the unit. 

Mr. Chair, I noted in your opening statement that you had 

talked about the 90-day issue, and I will tell you that in South Dakota here, we feel 90 days is too long to bring a unit back. The camaraderie that they gain during their mobilization, the ability to 

talk to one another, the ability to identify issues from our standpoint is important far closer to 90 days, and we think the 90-day 

issue is too long, and I wanted to note that to you as well. 

We also give welcome home packets that are sent to the Division 

of Veterans Affairs to all returning veterans with printed information outlining State and Federal benefits. 

The information is also found on our Department home page. 

And finally, we have veteran’s forums across South Dakota sponsored in communities throughout the State in partnership with our 

veterans service organizations. These forums provide benefit 

overviews and service information to all members in a public setting. 

Each of these venues is important in registering veterans for the 

VA and it’s something that we also stress in each one of these settings. 

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In each of the past four years, the Department has hosted a Veteran’s Summit as well. Our Veteran’s Summit brings together representatives from all major organizations in South Dakota to work 

with the military. Information is shared and ideas are exchanged. 

The Veteran’s Summits address a wide range of issues along with 

fostering a spirit of cooperation and gives the Department ideas for 

initiatives to work into our strategic model. 

Last month our 2006 Veteran’s Summit was held in Pierre. The 

theme dealt specifically with post-deployment mental health issues 

faced by our service members and their families. 

I’m glad to report that we have gained results by this. South Dakota’s readjustment and transition effort focused on our new veterans has given us a large number applying for and gaining VA 

benefits. In fact, in a report from April 30, 2006, by the VA, South 

Dakota had a total of 2176 Global War on Terror veterans registered in the VA System. This total is more than any State in 

VISN 23 which includes South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota, 

Iowa, and Nebraska. 

The State of South Dakota has also been very helpful in legislation at the State level. Veterans Transition Partnership has involved elected leaders in the Executive and Legislative branch in 

South Dakota. Some recent initiatives include revising the definition of periods of service which qualify for veteran’s benefits in 

South Dakota, reestablishing the South Dakota Veterans Benefit 

program to include our bonus program that gives $500 to veterans 

from South Dakota when they return home from their service, and 

offering free education benefits at South Dakota Regent Campuses 

and Technical Schools for spouses and children of members of the 

National Guard in South Dakota who have been killed or permanently disabled while serving on active duty. We’ve also passed legislation in South Dakota to prohibit picketing at military funerals. 

In closing, I would like to reemphasize that the success that we 

have had as advocates for veterans is the result of cooperation 

among leaders, organizations, and agencies and the sharing of 

ideas and resources. Since our troops have been deployed, South 

Dakota has stood as a true national leader in developing innovative 

ways to serve our returning service members and their families. 

The citizens of our State can be proud of this. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Gerlach appears on p. 50.] 

STATEMENT OF KAREN MOORE, CORE COMPLIANCY MANAGER, TRANSITION ASSISTANCE PROGRAM, FAMILY SUPPORT CENTER, ELLSWORTH AIR FORCE BASE, RAPID CITY, 

SD 

Ms. MOORE. Good morning, Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Herseth. I am Karen Moore and I am in charge of the Transition Assistance Program here at Ellsworth, and I would like to 

make some comments about the chief—what he said and some 

other comments that were made. 

For our transition class, we try to include everybody. All—whether they’ve been in two years, 28 years, whatever it is, we would like 

to have them all in the same class. The reason why is we have 

learned through all of this process that you need to have that experience along with that other knowledge and the other knowledge 

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13 

that the younger people bring is Internet. They know how to access 

the computer. 

They know where to find all of the websites. So a lot of times 

it’s very interesting to watch the class interact because the older 

ones are helping them find benefits, and the younger ones are helping the older ones find websites of where to find jobs, where to find 

information on relocation and things like that. 

Our class size normally runs between 12 to 47. We have had to 

go to four in a quarter because of the force shaping things going 

on, so we’re having to do that, and we tried that for our last quarter and we were able to get the same amount as we had in one 

month in the previous year. But what I would like to say on that 

is we like to have smaller classes. I don’t like to have 47 people 

crammed into a room. I have a huge classroom, but I still do not 

have enough room for interaction. TAP is so important, the information that has been talked about is very important and that we 

need more one-on-one, and that’s why we like to have our classes 

smaller. The class that the Chief was in, it had 30-something in it, 

I guess. It was quite large. 

The other thing I’d like to comment on is about spouses. Here at 

Ellsworth we do invite spouses, but as the Chief was saying, it’s 

very difficult with people working. You need two incomes to make 

it in this world nowadays. So one thing that we had looked at, and 

I have been traveling around doing some instructing and I was 

with my peers two weeks ago, and I asked them a question. If with 

TAP, would you want it to be mandatory? And I didn’t get any 

comments, but I did get a side-bar from an individual who came 

up to me, and she runs a program at another installation, and she 

told me no. And I was very surprised and I said, ‘‘Well, why not?’’ 

And she said the reason why is that she saw it as they may think 

that it’s something that they have to do. It may have a stigma 

somehow get attached to it that it’s another mandatory briefing 

that I’ve got to go to. I’m not going to get any benefit out of this 

program. Sometimes people walk into those classes with that. 

So with her comment, we spoke about it and I said, ‘‘Well, what 

about if TAP was able to be taken at any point in time? Not just 

when you’re separating, not when you’re ready to go out the door, 

not when you’re having to leave. Why couldn’t it be used as a retention tool?’’ At the Transition Assistance Conference last year, 

they said that 18 percent use it as a reenlistment tool. They came 

back in; they decided to stay. Well, I would really like to see that 

utilized for that more than just leaving when you’re going out the 

door because so many other things are going on. I’ve been in charge 

of this program for two years now, and my gentlemen and my ladies are so overwhelmed when they walk out the door with all the 

information, and I would like for them to be able to take it when 

they have the opportunity to sit down and take things home and 

look at it a lot more in-depth. 

Spouses, I also think, need to have the opportunity to take the 

class, and I think you need to be able to take it and look at it more 

at home because a lot of our spouses have children. So what I 

would like to see for TAP is that it also be online. Not the class 

itself, but the manual so it—and the reason why I say that is we 

go out to the line when people are leaving. It’s very interesting to 

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14 

talk to military members when they’re getting ready to deploy for 

the fifth time, as the airman said, in a year. And you look at that 

and a lot of comments they make is that, ‘‘Okay. My spouse told 

me this is my last one. I gotta get out.’’ 

‘‘Well, I understand that, but let me give you some educational 

things to think about while you’re gone. You’re going to have plenty 

of time to think. Let me give you the tools to look at and think 

about that while you’re gone.’’ So having access not only for the 

spouses to come whenever the class is going on, but also on the 

Internet, I think, would be a huge benefit for us. 

Also, the other thing I would like to add is that we have a decision time briefing in the Air Force, and that’s where first-term airmen, second-term airmen get to make that decision of whether they 

should stay in or go. I would like to have TAP as maybe an offer 

for that to where they can go to the class, get more information on 

cost of living, see where they want to go, see what jobs are available, and then from that point, make that decision. But I know 

right now it’s just a four-hour class basically and information is 

thrown at you, and this is such a huge decision, it’s so much information and time and effort has gone into this, just not the three 

days or three and a half days along with DTAP that we’ve now 

been doing here at Ellsworth, you need to really be able to process 

that. 

So I would like to say DTAP is a program we started in March 

of last year. We have had excellent critiques on that program. 

We’ve had 157 come through it, which is very good. Here at Ellsworth, we offer it up to anyone who thinks they’re going to file a 

claim. We’re not looking at just you getting out for a medical reason. We want you to be able to file a claim. That has had great 

benefits here. So having DTAP added on to TAP has also helped 

us with that. 

So I’m very pleased to be working with the TAP program. 

I thank you very much for the opportunity to have some of my 

participants here this morning to be able to talk to you and for this 

opportunity also. Thank you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. 

[The statement of Ms. Moore appears on p. 54.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Kolden. 

STATEMENT OF TODD KOLDEN, VETERANS’ SERVICES STATE 

COORDINATOR, SOUTH DAKOTA DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, 

ON BEHALF OF PAMELA ROBERTS, SECRETARY, SOUTH DAKOTA DEPARTMENT OF LABOR 

Mr. KOLDEN. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Herseth, 

good morning. Probably it may feel like afternoon to you since it’s 

still afternoon Eastern Time. My name is Todd Kolden. I’m the 

Veterans’ Services State Coordinator for the South Dakota Department of Labor, and I also serve as an active member of the National Association of State Workforce Agencies (NASWA), Veterans 

Affairs Committee, and I am the State Employment Chair of both 

the VFW and the Disabled American Veterans of South Dakota. 

It is my honor today to appear before this Committee on behalf 

of South Dakota Secretary of Labor Pamela Roberts to present the 

views of the South Dakota Department of Labor regarding the 

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15 

Transition Assistance Program Workshop at Ellsworth Air Force 

Base and to discuss any questions or issues you may have. As we 

feel all benefits owed to veterans are important, my testimony this 

morning is going to focus primarily on TAP. 

In order for TAP to be successful, the partnerships between the 

Department of Defense, which in this case is Ellsworth Air Force 

Base, VA Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment, South Dakota Department of Military and Veterans Affairs, U.S. Department of Labor, Veterans Employment Training Service, and the 

South Dakota Department of Labor need to be solidly in place. I’m 

pleased to say that these partnerships are well-established in 

South Dakota and have been instrumental in the success of TAP 

facilitated at Ellsworth Air Force Base. Without these solid partnerships, veterans attending TAP would not be receiving the full 

benefit of transition services they richly deserve. However, we do 

ask for your assistance to ensure these partnerships can continue 

to function successfully. 

In recent months the ‘‘Key to Career Success’’ campaign was 

launched by the Employment and Training Administration in partnership with DOL/VETS and the Department of Defense which assists active duty service members in transition and also helps returning Guard and Reserve members connect to employment and 

supportive services available through the Department of Labor. 

This campaign employs a wallet card that highlights a service 

member’s special status upon arrival at the local employment office—in South Dakota we refer to that as South Dakota Career 

Centers—and contains important information about DOL services 

and electronic tools. This card is primarily handed out during our 

TAP Workshop, and we feel this has been a good asset to help get 

the word out on the employment services Department of Labor provides to veterans and assist in their transition. 

The importance of our DVOP Specialists and LVERs is not only 

serving veterans in the local office, but also conducting outreach. 

One of the best times for outreach is during the facilitation of TAP 

Workshops. In South Dakota our DVOP Specialists and LVERs facilitate approximately 80 percent of the TAP Workshop and 25 percent of the Disabled TAP Workshop, DTAP, which are conducted 

normally once a month. Often through a TAP Workshop, 

transitioning service members develop a one-on-one working relationship with the DVOP or LVER which enhances a successful 

transition. 

As the Subcommittee is aware, there has been discussion at the 

national level to make TAP Workshops mandatory for Guard and 

Reserve components as well as for active duty service members before transitioning or retiring from military service. The South Dakota Department of Labor feels it should be mandatory for active 

duty personnel since many of these service members have been in 

the military for more than four years and most likely have been 

serving since a fairly young age. Many have probably never had a 

civilian job, and this possibility will be an abrupt change. For 

Guard and Reserve components, South Dakota Department of 

Labor feels it should be made mandatory coming from the command level. In other words, it should be mandatory for the Adjutant Generals of each State to inform their units about the TAP 

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16 

Workshops and allow them the opportunity to attend a TAP Workshop if they desire by sending them on a no-cost TDY (or TAD) orders. As you know, many of these individuals may have already 

jobs—may already have jobs they are returning to and may not 

have the desire or need to attend TAP, but again, it should at least 

be mandatory to have the opportunity. 

In South Dakota the Department of Labor made this request 

nearly three years ago to the Adjutant General and thanks to the 

partnership we have established, there is an unofficial agreement 

in place. Currently there are full-time Guard members attending 

TAP when they retire or separate. As you know, Mr. Ciccolella 

from DOL/VETS reports that about 60 percent of our service members are attending TAP at this time with the goal over the next 

couple years to reach 80 percent, and we feel that this initiative— 

we support this initiative and we feel that if TAP is made mandatory by these means that we could reach that 80 percent of service 

members attending TAP. 

Another example of the strong partnership is reflected by who facilitates a TAP Workshop. Being job-ready after attending TAP and 

leaving the service is very important, but it’s not the only service 

that takes place. During our TAP Workshops we have the following 

services presented: 

Finances, labor market overview, personal appraisal, job search 

techniques, employment applications, resume cover letters which 

includes work groups, interview process which includes mock interviews and those are taught by the Department of Labor personnel, 

but there’s also VA benefits presented. The County Veterans Service Officers are present, the Vet Center, and then also a one-day 

half—a one-half day Disabled TAP Workshop is facilitated for service members who have or may have a service-connected disability 

focusing on the benefits available to them which includes vocational rehabilitation and employment. So as you can see, TAP informs service members not only about how to get ready to make 

the transition and receive benefits, but also what they are entitled 

to and how to go about receiving these benefits. Again, we feel this 

instills the importance of the partnerships involved to successfully 

assist in the transition of our service members. 

Finally I want to share my personal experience with TAP. When 

I retired from the military service in 1997, I was given the opportunity to attend TAP. The information I learned and the resources 

I was provided helped me immensely and immediately and still assist me to this day. I feel the TAP Workshop is one of the best resources we currently have for our service members who are making 

the transition from military to civilian life, and for Guard and Reserve individuals who want to make a career change. 

Again I want to thank the Committee again for allowing me to 

testify. This concludes my testimony, and I’d be happy to discuss 

or respond to any questions. 

[The statement of Mr. Kolden appears on p. 57.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. Summerside. 

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STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. SUMMERSIDE, VETERANS EDUCATION PROGRAM SPECIALIST, SOUTH DAKOTA STATE APPROVING AGENCY 

Mr. SUMMERSIDE. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member 

Herseth, and Members of the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, I’m pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the 

South Dakota State Approving Agency to provide comments on the 

missed opportunity by many of those eligible for VA educational 

benefits as it relates to training on the job. Another issue of concern is the regionalization of claims processing, customer and education liaison service. 

Recommendation 1. VA educational benefits are not just for 

classrooms. Some individuals learn better from practical hands-on 

training. The training on the job assists employers in hiring and 

retaining skilled workers which will provide our country with a 

highly educated and productive work force. 

From my experience and discussions with my colleagues nationally, it is our sense that VA educational training programs have 

not been utilized to their fullest potential. The two tables that were 

provided in my written testimony illustrate the lost opportunities 

from the first 60 years. 35.9 million veterans were eligible for benefits during these service periods. 16.5 million veterans did not use 

any VA educational benefits at all. Over the last decade, State approving agencies across the nation have been actively promoting 

training on the job. Through these efforts, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of approved and active training establishments, but we need greater cooperation from our service 

partners. The DOD and the VA will need to do a better job of promoting and educating those who are eligible for VA educational 

benefits about this excellent training opportunity. 

The Department of Labor should make direct referrals to the respective State approving agency when placing those that are eligible for VA educational benefits and training programs. If the above 

recommendation was implemented, these individuals—eligible individuals for VA educational benefits would be afforded opportunities 

that have not been seen in previous service periods. 

Recommendation 2. Over the past decade the VA has moved towards a regional approach to serving those eligible for benefits and 

their service partners. In theory it would seem like this approach 

would make better use of limited resources, and if properly managed, would provide outstanding results. The system has not delivered as intended and those eligible individuals are suffering. The 

VA has looked towards technology to solve all issues and in reality, 

their business plan should include additional staff with a greater 

emphasis on training. 

First there should be a comprehensive review of the claims processing system to identify problems and then provide the necessary 

resources to resolve these problems. 

Second, the toll free number and online inquiries is just not 

working. There are dropped calls, erroneous information provided, 

delays in responding to online inquiries. Good customer service is 

an absolute necessity for any benefit system to be successful. 

Third, in the past each State has had a local VA contact or Education Liaison Representative. Upon the retirement of our repmstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

18 

resentative in 1999, this position was transferred to Kansas, and 

over the past seven years, we’ve had five different representatives. 

This has created challenges for our State since direct access is an 

important aspect of this relationship. Another concern would be, 

has the VA planned for the future? Will there be trained professionals to fill future vacancies. Our current liaison, Mr. John 

Streedbeck, is a valuable asset and partner whose professionalism 

is greatly appreciated and needed. 

I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge and extend a special 

thanks to Carl Thunnel, Randy Johnson, and Barry Walser, all of 

the St. Louis Regional Processing Center. 

These individuals have provided this State with outstanding 

service with the limited resources available. Simply put, the current system needs additional resources to ensure those eligible for 

VA educational benefits are provided quality and timely customer 

service. 

In closing, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Herseth, and Members of the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, I would like to 

thank you again for the opportunity to comment on these issues related to training on the job and the regionalization of VA educational services. I would be happy to respond to any questions. 

[The statement of Mr. Summerside appears on p. 59.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. Ms. Herseth. 

Ms. HERSETH. Well, I’ll start with a few and then come back because there’s a lot to get at here, and I appreciate the testimony 

that each of you have provided. Let me ask you, first, Mr. Gerlach, 

and as you described the Readjustment Task Force that was put 

together, I know that includes the State Council of Mental Centers. 

Mr. GERLACH. Correct. 

Ms. HERSETH. And in your opinion, assuming in a perfect world 

the resources were there, that resources weren’t questioned, do you 

think that follow-up mental health assessments and counseling 

should be required after demobilization? 

Mr. GERLACH. I don’t think that they should be required simply 

because if the individual wants to stay in the military, there’s some 

issues with counseling that could affect their military service. However, I would suggest that individuals who want that should be 

granted the anonymity needed to gain that help, yet stay in the 

service, and I think that’s an important point. 

Ms. HERSETH. I think it is, too, but I’m curious as to, I mean, 

if it were required for everybody, if it was just part of—— 

Mr. GERLACH. The general process? 

Ms. HERSETH [continuing]. The process, then wouldn’t you be 

able to minimize the issues associated with those wanting to stay? 

I mean, if everyone goes through it and you kind of deal with the 

issue of anonymity in terms of the privacy of what’s discussed, but 

if it’s part of the demobilization process or whether it’s 30 days, 60 

days after, as you try to identify some of the problems when they 

come back, again, assuming that resources weren’t an issue, would 

that be—you’d still suggest that it should just simply be made 

available to those who choose it? 

Mr. GERLACH. No, I think you bring up a good anecdote in that 

if it were a systemic process coming off of demobilization, and it is 

in the way that at the demobilization station you’re asked to fill 

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out a questionnaire and it asks you some questions about how 

you’re feeling and then some general type things. They do that at 

the demobilization station. Is it the most effective way to identify 

issues? I would submit probably not, and I think where you’re 

going with a systemic program coming off of demob. does have 

some merit. 

Ms. HERSETH. Now I know that, Ms. Moore, you addressed the 

issue of TAP among your counterparts in other programs that to 

a certain percentage, it could effectively be used as a retention tool, 

and even a couple of the individuals on the—well, one in particular 

on the first panel chose after, receiving the information, but for 

whatever reason, to stay, so do you think that the demobilization 

process that we’ve put together here, Mr. Gerlach, has also been 

beneficial as a retention tool for the National Guard? 

Mr. GERLACH. Absolutely, and I’ll tell you why. I think that the 

sharing of information that goes on in our demobilization process 

enables individuals to transition effectively and easily. In addition, 

it gives them the opportunity to meet with individuals such as 

county veteran service officers. In South Dakota where we have a 

rural State and individuals go home from Rapid City where they 

demobilized out of and go to Mobridge or Faith or Chamberlain, out 

in the rural areas, it gives them the point of contact not only at 

their local level, but at the State level in the National Guard, too. 

So I would submit that that whole transition process and having 

the right people there has allowed us to retain service members. 

Ms. HERSETH. I appreciate that. Now I have a follow-up question 

for you turning to education benefits separate from the demobilization process and the different information that’s provided there. As 

a major in the South Dakota National Guard, what do you think 

our—what is the primary factor, in your opinion, in the men and 

women that you’ve worked with over the past number of years for 

them to reenlist with the National Guard? 

Mr. GERLACH. I think with reenlistment, their main factor is the 

bonuses that go with the reenlistment. I would also state, you mentioned the education. I think education a lot of times gets individuals in the National Guard, Reserve and active duty in the door. 

I would submit that a good thing that you would look at the Federal level and the State level is a continuing education program. I 

think that once you get to a certain level in the military, whether 

it be an NCO or an officer and you’re serving in the National 

Guard or Reserve, you have become a professional soldier. Even if 

you’re not on active duty, you’re still a professional soldier. I think 

increased emphasis on professional degrees, graduate level degrees 

for senior NCOs and officers is a program that I think could continue to help soldiers and in terms of reenlistment because reenlistment may give them some future incentives. 

Ms. HERSETH. I think that’s a very good point to make and I appreciate you stating it in terms of what we’ve done here and the 

bonuses as well and perhaps also just the sense of duty and camaraderie, but let me ask you this question because this came up 

down in Arkansas and it’s come up in our Committee hearings in 

D.C. As we look to modernize the GI Bill, as we know, active duty 

upon separation still utilize the education benefits that they acmstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

20 

crue. National Guard and Reservists, they can only take advantage 

of them to the extent they continue—— 

Mr. GERLACH. Correct. 

Ms. HERSETH [continuing]. In the Guard. Do you have a serious 

concern that if we were to modernize the GI Bill in a way that allowed for some utilization, even though if the individual service 

member chose to leave the Guard, that perhaps the education benefit would decrease, they wouldn’t be entitled to the full magnitude 

of the benefit, but still had some access to the benefit, do you have 

serious concern that that would cause problems with retention? 

Mr. GERLACH. I think it’s something that needs to be addressed, 

and Mr. Summerside and I have in-depth conversations at times 

about this. I think as you apply to the National Guard and Reserve, seeing the National Guard and Reserve mission the way it 

is right now in the operations standpoint, I think that they should 

be given more latitude to access the GI Bill than what they have 

right now. It could help retention and recruiting, but I think from 

a fairness standpoint, I think it needs to be addressed. And Mr. 

Summerside could maybe comment additionally when you get to 

him, but it’s a very good question. 

Ms. HERSETH. Well, let me go to Mr. Summerside on particularly 

the Chapter 1607, the new benefit. Have you seen an effective utilization of that benefit so far? And I know it’s relatively new, but 

based just on what you’re seeing from South Dakota National 

Guard members, their familiarity with the benefit, their utilization 

of the benefit, could you comment how you think it’s working thus 

far in South Dakota? 

Mr. SUMMERSIDE. Representative Herseth, basically what I’ve 

seen so far, we got ahead of the game right shortly after the legislation and I think it was in December of 2004. We put it in all our 

brochures, we had public meetings, we worked and trained with 

our county and tribal service offices. We tried to get the message 

out, and part of it is we have a real strong base in on-the-job and 

apprenticeship training. What we tried to do is when these individuals left whatever job that was, we tried to diary that when they 

got back to make sure they knew about the Chapter 1607, and 

many of them, in our State anyway, we help them or assist them 

in actually applying for the Chapter 1607. 

I think—are we getting them all? No, but with the cooperation 

that we’ve had with the county and tribal service offices, also with 

the National Guard, I work with their Education Office to try to 

identify people. I think we’re doing a fairly good job. I think there 

are a fair number of individuals that have received benefits. I think 

there’s a fairly good percentage. I don’t have the exact data that 

have actually applied, and many of these I worked on. I assisted 

a Guardsman last Friday and we finished his. He’s going back to 

2003 when he came back from active duty and we’re picking up for 

a year that he would get the greater benefit. Actually he had exhausted his Chapter 1606 and he was applying for the greater benefit. 

I work with people on a daily basis on the Chapter 1607. I think 

DOD—I understood that they were to provide a letter to all of 

these individuals. I don’t know if that ever got to those individuals. 

The people that I have worked with did not receive that cormstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

21 

respondence, so I believe in South Dakota we have got the message 

out fairly well. We still have more work to do, and we continue to 

do that. We have an annual workshop here in a month and a half 

where we’ll address it again at the County and Tribal Service Officers Association. We have many conferences twice a year and we 

address it at both of those. And I think overall in South Dakota, 

we’re in fairly good shape. 

They’re behind a little in the processing in St. Louis, and it’s a 

very difficult program and process because some of these claims are 

going back four years. They need to pay the greater benefit. They 

need to weigh out kickers. There are a lot of variables in there and 

there are a lot of challenges. 

Ms. HERSETH. You’re right, and the Chairman and I have tried 

to, in our oversight as we look to some being behind the ball in 

processing those claims for 1607 benefits, we’ve been asking on a 

fairly frequent basis where they are. I think they’re doing a little 

bit better now that there’s an electronic payment system in place 

in terms of that transfer of the benefit. But I certainly appreciate 

what you’re saying in terms of some of the complexity of the benefit, and I do think it’s worth our follow-up to determine whether 

or not the Department of Defense has communicated effectively 

with those members entitled to Chapter 1607. 

Before I turn it back, I’ll ask just one last question for Mr. 

Kolden, and how do you feel that the local work force markets 

across South Dakota have responded to service members that have 

separated, active service members that have separated, and National Guard and Reservists that are coming back for employment 

or reemployment? 

Mr. KOLDEN. Are you asking specifically about USERRA or are 

you asking do we have employers that are hiring veterans? 

Ms. HERSETH. Just do you feel that employers in the various 

work force markets across South Dakota have been effectively integrated into the coordination and communication certainly working 

with our career centers and others to—I was pleased to hear of the 

card that is given at the TAP programs. That’s beneficial, but do 

you think that the response has been one where employers are 

aware of and want more information in trying to identify those who 

are separating from service and may be seeking employment here 

in the Rapid City area or Aberdeen or elsewhere? 

Mr. KOLDEN. I believe they have. As the Department of Labor we 

market—we go on a marketing stream probably about every three 

months where we really reach out to the employers and say—or 

ask them to hire veterans and why they should. We don’t just say, 

‘‘Hire a veteran.’’ We tell them why they should hire a veteran. 

The ESGR in South Dakota is very strong. In fact, Lt. Col. 

Michels, who’s out in the crowd and he’s from Camp Rapid and the 

ESGR Chairman of the state, I believe is his title, and ESGR is 

very strong. ESGR works very closely with my Federal counterpart 

Earl Schultz who has USERRA. He deals with it professionally. 

You know, with the veterans service organizations, we recognize 

employers who hire veterans, and just recently we recognized an 

employer right here from Ellsworth Air Force Base, AKL Security. 

60 percent of their employees are veterans. You know, that’s unmstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

22 

heard of basically across the country to have 60 percent of your employees veterans. 

And when I accepted a lot of nominations for employers for hiring veterans this year, it was a tough pick because we had a lot 

of employers who had a lot of veterans working for them and that 

tells me—you know, I look at it statistically. About 10 percent of 

our population is veterans. You would expect that a business is 

going to have 10 percent veterans in their work force. A lot of businesses I looked at have 25 and 30 percent of their employees are 

veterans. So that tells me that they are hiring veterans, that 

they’re accepting them. When they return, I can’t officially comment on USERRA issues. That would be Mr. McNulty or Earl 

Schultz to comment on USERRA cases we’ve had across the state, 

but it’s been pretty mild. I think we have a lot of cooperation. 

Again, the ESGR has done a great job of educating employers, 

and I think that was the key was educating the employers on what 

a service member’s rights are when they deploy and when they 

come back and what their obligation is. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. Gerlach, following up on Ms. Herseth’s question about the educational benefits, recently in the 2004 study—Reserve Personnel Study, it said that 14 percent of the people, when 

asked, said that with reenlistment, they considered the educational 

opportunity. Would it be a factor as far as reenlistment if we offered the benefit after they left the service? 

Mr. GERLACH. Absolutely, and in this day and age, I think that 

it’s more appropriate than ever. With the Guard and Reserve members that have been mobilized and have served, I think a unique 

benefit for them to leave after—even if they do leave their service, 

it’s more than appropriate in the times that we live. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. All right. So it’s appropriate to do it. Do you feel 

like it would adversely affect reenlistment? 

Mr. GERLACH. I don’t think so in South Dakota. You know, I 

throw out the fact that education is important, but I will tell you 

that I think that camaraderie and being part of the National Guard 

in South Dakota trumps that. I think individuals that serve in the 

units, and I think it’s that way on active duty in many places, too, 

the main reason they serve in the Guard is you get to serve your 

state, you get to perform State missions, you get a cadre of individuals that you get to see on a drill weekend and that you enjoy serving with, you get leadership training and when you package that 

all together, I think that’s probably the most important thing that 

people get out of serving in the Guard. 

So I don’t think that additional benefits will bring about a windfall of people going out the door. I think that those things are the 

core reasons people serve. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. That’s interesting. That’s the exact answer that 

we hear over and over again as we pose that question. I guess, as 

you alluded to earlier, we do have a fairness question since we’ve 

got people that serve a couple tours, and then transition out and 

really have no benefit at all which doesn’t seem fair, when you 

compare it to the guys, that are in the Reserve doing the same job. 

Mr. GERLACH. Yes. 

mstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

23 

Mr. BOOZMAN. You mentioned about in the TAP programs that 

45, I think, or 47 was too large. What’s a good number? 

Ms. MOORE. The size that we like is about 20 to 24. 

The reason why with us, we do these resume work groups. We 

need to have them small so it’s more hands-on. I also bring out employers, HR professionals. Well, to be able to effectively give them 

a 10- to 15-minute interview, I need smaller groups because I really believe that, as I said, I always make them laugh and I ask 

them, ‘‘Did you leave today with a headache?’’ because we purposely have so much information in these classes that having 

smaller classes allows us to really deal one-on-one. These people 

are coming from all different walks of life, all different times of 

service, retiring, separating, medical, spouses, children. 

So we really do need to be able to spend more hands-on time 

with them, and that’s why we here at Ellsworth like to have smaller classes. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. You’re to be complimented in the sense that it 

seems like your pupils, speak very highly of the program. 

Ms. MOORE. Thank you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Is there an opportunity to brainstorm to figure out 

how we can get more spouses involved in the sense of maybe thinking outside the box as far as when it’s offered, maybe quarterly; 

that one of them is done on a weekend or an evening or—see what 

I’m saying? 

Ms. MOORE. This has always been an issue. It was ironic that the 

Chief brought up Heart Link. That’s also my program; I also run 

that. We had that started as a daytime program. I could never get 

over more than 11 people. If we have it in the evening and have 

child care, we have normally 19 or more. So it does help to have 

it in the evening, but I think also there—you were talking about 

stigmas. The spouses do have a stigma with coming to some of the 

classes. They think it’s only for the military members, and this has 

been instilled in them for years, and that’s one of the stigmas we 

have always had to fight at Family Support with our programs is 

that a lot of times, spouses just don’t know about it or they say, 

‘‘Oh, you don’t need to go to that,’’ and that is something that we 

have been tackling for years. I wish I had a good answer, but we 

have been fighting this ever since Family Support has been here. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. Kolden, you mentioned recognizing the employers; they’re doing a good job and that’s good. Are we doing a 

good enough job of recognizing employers? Is there any way we can 

help you with that? I think people like to be thanked and, we like 

to reward good behavior. Are there enough programs in place for 

doing that or do we need to do a better job of trying to think up 

something? 

Mr. KOLDEN. Sir, could I comment on your question to Ms. Moore 

first? 

Mr. BOOZMAN. You can comment on anything you want. 

Mr. KOLDEN. I was just going to—as you know, DOL/VETS funds 

TAP separately; it’s a separate funding stream from what we’d normally get for the DVOPs and the LVERs. 

What we did in South Dakota is that we recognized that the 

classes were getting larger. Karen—you know, we have a quarterly 

TAP meeting. You’ll hear from me that I think communication and 

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24 

cooperation and partnership is probably the most important of all 

this that happens for transitioning service members is that I can’t 

do it alone, DOL can’t do it alone, DOD can’t do it alone, Military 

and Veteran Affairs can’t do it alone. We have to all do this together in partnership to give the best service we can. 

But what we did after Karen communicated about the drawdowns that were coming is that we went ahead and funded instead 

of—normally we could fund one TAP session or one TAP workshop 

per month. We went ahead and got the funding for two a quarter— 

or four a quarter instead of three a quarter. We had added an extra 

one in there in case we had additional individuals, and if we didn’t 

have additional individuals to attend TAP, that money we could 

just give back to DOL. It’s not money wasted; we just give it back. 

I know we’ve had a double workshop, so far just one, where we 

would have 60 members in one TAP Workshop, and we feel that’s 

too many. That’s too big a class. As we all know, a classroom 

should be 25 to 30, somewhere in there. I think the new national 

MOU for TAP between DOD, VA, and DOL has indicated 35 at the 

maximum, and that’s what NASWA recommended to DOL is don’t 

go over 35. I haven’t seen that. It’s being signed right now by all 

the interested parties so I’m not sure that that’s what it says, but 

we were told it would say 35 would be recommended. 

Right now it seems like, to your question to me directly, the veterans service organizations are doing, in my opinion, a very good 

job of recognizing employers. Does DOL recognize employers like 

that? Not in that sense they don’t. In our South Dakota Career 

Centers, we have employment representatives who go out and talk 

to employers, and when they go out and talk to employers, 

they’re—you know, we’re telling them what our services are, and 

when we go out and talk to employers and tell them about our 

services, one of the services that we describe is our veteran services, what we do for veterans. 

We promote the hiring of veterans, but again, do we recognize 

them like the veterans service organizations do? I would say probably not. The ESGR does a good job of recognizing employers, but 

other than that, I don’t think DOL does probably quite enough to 

recognize them, in my personal belief. 

One thing I would say is that being I’m the employment chairman for two of the veterans service organizations that we recognize 

employers. Pam Roberts comes to our conventions, State conventions, and she’s recognized the employers as well. So as the South 

Dakota Department of Labor Secretary of Labor, she has recognized them as well and saying thank you. So that helps, but we 

could probably do more. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Ms. Herseth, do you—— 

Ms. HERSETH. No. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. GERLACH. I have one follow-up, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Very well. 

Mr. GERLACH. Earlier I wanted to make a comment and Mr. 

Kolden articulated really well and I think you asked a really good 

question. I think that the unsung heroes in this whole mobilization 

and deployment process have been the employers. We’ve always 

looked the last 20, 25 years and asked ourselves at the Federal 

mstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

25 

level and State level, if we call up a lot of Guard and Reserve people, what’s going to happen? Are they going to get their jobs back? 

When you pass good legislation at the Federal level, and you have, 

but I will tell you in South Dakota, you probably didn’t need that 

legislation. We’ve had individuals all the way from three-person 

welding shops in Estelline to major banks in Sioux Falls who have 

made up the difference in benefits and pay to mobilize an individual, helped family members while they were gone. So I think 

your question about are we doing enough for our employers is a 

good one because I will submit that they are doing a lot. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you very much. Well, thank you, panelists, 

so much for sharing your thoughts and we just greatly appreciate 

it. Thank you. 

Mr. KOLDEN. Thank you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. For our final panel of the day, we have Mr. Dave 

McNulty, Director For Veterans Employment and Training for Wyoming at the Department of Labor; Mr. John Brown, District Director, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, for the U.S. Small Business Administration; Mr. William Fillman, Director for the Central Area for 

the Veterans Benefits Administration; and Mr. Fillman is accompanied by Mr. John Smith who is the Director for the Dakotas Regional Office of the Veterans Benefits Administration. Let’s start 

with Mr. McNulty. 

STATEMENT OF DAVID McNULTY, DIRECTOR FOR VETERANS 

EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING FOR WYOMING, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, ON BEHALF OF EARL R. SCHULTZE, STATE 

DIRECTOR—SOUTH DAKOTA, VETERANS’ EMPLOYMENT AND 

TRAINING SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR 

Mr. MCNULTY. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Herseth, 

and the Committee members, Earl Schultz regrets that he could 

not be here. It was impossible for him to and he appreciates the 

fact that you would allow me to represent him. We come from similar states that have similar problems and we deal oftentimes with 

them in the same way. 

You’ve got his written testimony and I won’t—I’ll go over briefly 

what we’re responsible for. I won’t, although I could answer questions on his testimony, if you have it. I know he covered what’s 

been done out here at the Base. 

Wyoming has a similar Base in Cheyenne, Wyoming, Warren Air 

Force Base, so both of us deal pretty much with the same things. 

Basically the Department of Labor is responsible to ensure that 

we’ve got TAP manuals, we’ve got people that are trained to provide TAP. We do that through NVTI in Denver, Colorado, and to 

ensure—it’s been mentioned by several speakers here today that 

we work together. None of us can do it alone. It takes the Department of Defense, it takes the National Guard, it takes the Base 

TAP Facilities Coordinator, it takes a lot of people in the private 

sector to come in and to provide these TAP programs. And basically 

we’re responsible to make sure that they—they’re put together and 

that they run. I know Mr. Schultz is really appreciative of what 

this Committee does not only because you do things help veterans, 

but you’re concerned enough that as to how we’re spending our 

mstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

26 

money and what we’re doing in providing the services that they 

need. 

I’d like to touch on a couple things that were covered that I think 

are important. I think a lot of people could benefit from TAP, especially spouses. When you look at active duty military, lots of them 

may consider getting out because every two or three years, they’re 

transferred somewhere else, and their spouse is put into a position 

that they have to look for work every two or three years. The service member knows they have a job to go to. They don’t have to 

worry about it. I think it’s really important to do what we can to 

encourage spouses to go. 

Someone mentioned earlier that it would be good to allow people 

that their spouse may be just in for the first time to allow them 

to go because if they have to look for work over and over again, 

I think it’s extremely important to give them the tools they need. 

The other lapse that I think every state’s trying to deal with is 

in the National Guard and the Reserve units. We’ve got people in 

Wyoming National Guard, and I’m sure South Dakota does, that 

are from 34 different states. It’s not even just within the State of 

Wyoming. We’ve got pilots from Hawaii in the Wyoming National 

Guard. When those people are deployed, their spouses are located 

out in areas where it’s extremely difficult to get to them. Also when 

they come back and once they disperse, it’s extremely difficult to 

get to them. 

So I think there are ways that we can deal with some of those 

programs. We’ve—there’s some TAP manuals that are actually on 

disk that they can take with them. We can send those. NVTI’s got 

a job search program put together that you can take as an individual and sit through tapes. It’s not as effective, I don’t think, as 

having TAP trainers teaching the class, but it’s better than not giving them anything at all. And I know in South Dakota, many, 

many local offices could provide that type of course to the individual spouses or individual Guard and Reserve members or to individual military that may not have had the opportunity to take it 

before they go out. And so I think there’s some opportunities there 

that we could look at. 

I think the funding for TAP, as Todd said, is we built in extra 

sessions to provide TAP specifically for Guard and Reserve units. 

We’ve done it on weekends. I think the bigger issue is when we’ve 

got spouses that are only going to be available nights and stuff and 

they’re scattered all over, that there are ways, I think, that we 

can—we can deal with some of those to offer some opportunity. 

I think generally in this part of the country that we get a tremendous amount of employer support for TAP, and employers are 

looking for individuals that are drug-free, good work ethic, everything a military member brings to the employment arena, and 

they’re not hard to place if we give them the tools on how to look 

and where to look and who to go to for help. 

So I won’t really deal much more with Earl’s testimony. If you’ve 

got specific questions on that, I’d be glad to ask—answer them. I 

think Wyoming deals with the same kind of state. Low population 

spread out all over in small towns across huge areas of land, and 

that overall, I believe in our area in general that TAP provides an 

excellent service to members that are either returning from and 

mstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

27 

staying in the Guard and Reserve or going—Wyoming does the 

same thing that they do here. We allow any of them to come to 

Cheyenne. The problem is oftentimes driving 200 to 500 miles to 

go to TAP may not be real effective. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I know Mr. Schultz 

was extremely sorry he couldn’t be here and he does appreciate 

what all of you do for veterans. Thank you. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Schultz appears on p. 64.] 

STATEMENT OF JOHN L. BROWN, SOUTH DAKOTA DISTRICT 

DIRECTOR, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. BROWN. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Herseth, 

thank you for requesting our views on the important subjects of today’s hearing. My name is John Brown and I’m the District Director of SBA’s South Dakota District Office. 

I’ve been here about ten months and I’m very pleased to be here 

today. Administrator Barreto has asked me to testify about the 

SBA’s efforts to provide small business transition assistance to 

American military men and women. 

For the record, I would like to recognize that accompanying me 

today is Elton ‘‘Mick’’ Ringsak, SBA Regional Administrator for Region VIII. 

SBA maintains 68 district offices and 10 regional offices. All SBA 

programs and services including counseling and training are available to active duty personnel, Reservists, veterans and their families as they are to all citizens. To ensure easy access to our programs for veterans, SBA has a designated Veteran’s Business Development Officer in each office who acts as the initial point of contact for veterans seeking to use our programs. That person can also 

assist veterans in locating information on other programs that may 

be available through other resources and agencies. 

SBA is an active participant with other Federal agency resource 

partners including the Departments of Defense, Labor, and Veterans Affairs in the delivery of transition assistance for active duty 

and Reserve component members. 

SBA is a regular contributor to the Transition Assistance Program and the Disabled Transition Assistance Program for soon to 

be discharged military personnel and their families, and for demobilizing Reservists. 

SBA has been an active participant in the TAP and DTAP programs for many years nationwide and in the State of South Dakota. At SBA we know the potential that veterans have to become 

entrepreneurs and we’ve always sought participation in the TAP 

programs. 

SBA offers counseling and loans to veterans, service disabled veterans, reservists, active duty military and their families. At SBA 

veterans, service disabled veterans, reservists, active duty military 

and their families all come under the heading of ‘‘Veterans Services.’’ 

SBA provides targeted services intended to meet the unique interests of veterans as well as providing them with the overall business assistance programs available to other small business persons 

and owners. 

mstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

28 

SBA provides those services through a network of 68 district offices, 900-plus Small Business Development Centers, 387 SCORE 

Centers with over 10,000 SCORE volunteers, 90-plus Women’s 

Business Centers, five Veterans Business Outreach Centers, 16 Export Assistance Centers, and approximately 1700 lenders participating in the SBA’s Express Program alone. And I’m proud to say 

that we’re tracking ahead on loans in this State to veterans, so I’ll 

just toss that in. 

SBA provides government contracting information and assistance 

to veterans and others through 67 Procurement Center Representatives and Commercial Marketing Representatives across the nation 

as well. 

In addition to face-to-face services, SBA offers on-line training 

and counseling opportunities largely through our SCORE members. 

SBA offers a variety of loan programs for veterans. 

These include Military Reservists, Economic Injury Disaster 

Loans, the MREIDL Program, and 7(a), largely the SBA Express 

Program, which makes a special effort to meet the needs of veteran 

borrowers as well as our Community Express Loan Program. 

SBA recognizes that lending to veterans is a very important component of what we should be doing. As such, lending to veterans 

has been identified as one of the public policy goals of the 504 Loan 

Program. This designation allows us to increase the eligible size of 

a loan when it’s identified as a loan to a veteran. 

SBA actively pursues opportunities to educate veterans about resources provided by the Agency. It’s critical to inform existing and 

potential military veteran entrepreneurs about opportunities afforded to them. As entrepreneurs, they must make their own decisions on what resources and services fit their needs, but it’s our obligation to get the message out, and that’s frankly one of our largest challenges. 

SBA works with other agencies including the Departments Defense, Labor, VA and others to inform veterans and those recently 

called up about SBA’s offerings. 

The SBA website has a special link to the Office of Veterans 

Business Development that provides a guide to the full range of 

services available that can be accessed from anywhere in the world. 

Hundreds of thousands of print, CD and electronic copies of specific program materials, resource guides and fact sheets are distributed to veterans annually. There’s an ongoing long-term outreach 

program that includes reaching veterans when they’re participating 

in special seminars, conferences, training programs, ‘‘webinars’’ and 

other opportunities as they arise. This includes TAP seminars 

where SBA has been asked to participate. 

The Office of Veterans Business Development produces a quarterly newsletter which is circulated throughout the agency and is 

distributed to veterans, veteran organizations, veteran business 

owners, and other Federal and State agencies such as the ones 

today. This newsletter is distributed to more than 44,000 readers. 

These services are all provided through SBA programs and partners, Federal, state, and local governments, veteran service organizations and entrepreneurial organizations. 

SBA’s Office of Advocacy undertakes a number of research 

projects, studies, and other efforts to identify critical issues for vetmstockstill on PROD1PC66 with HEARING

29 

erans. Some of these issues include procurement, propensity for entrepreneurship, and veteran business databases. Advocacy works 

with SBA’s Office of Veteran Business Development, the U.S. Census Bureau, the Department of Defense Research Initiatives and 

veterans service groups to identify needs for ongoing research. This 

is a relatively new pursuit instituted by the Bush Administration 

during the past six years. 

The South Dakota District Office provided TAP and business 

workshops at Ellsworth Air Force Base in conjunction with the 

TAP Program here. Our office continues to supply materials and 

resources to the vet centers located throughout the State as well 

as access to our programs and resource partners. The district also 

provides procurement training and contract opportunities through 

the delivery of procurement fairs in Rapid City and Sioux Falls 

aimed at assisting SBA clients and Veteran Owned Businesses. In 

fact, a NIST/SBA computer security workshop is scheduled, I believe, for June 30 at this facility. 

In conclusion, SBA has reached hundreds of thousands of veterans nationwide with materials about the educational and lending 

programs offered through the agency. There were over 6,000,000 

visits in fiscal year 2005 on the Office of Veterans Business Development web pages compared to some 280,000 such hits in FY 2000. 

Providing services to veterans will continue to be of great importance to the SBA in the future. 

This concludes my testimony, and again, thank you for inviting 

us to be here and present on this matter. I’d be happy to answer 

your questions. 

[The statement of Mr. Brown appears on p. 70.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. Fillman. 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM FILLMAN, DIRECTOR, CENTRAL 

AREA, VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Mr. FILLMAN. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Herseth, 

Members of the Committee, it’s good to see you again. I’m William 

Fillman, Director of the Central Area Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of Veterans Affairs. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the role of the Veterans Benefits Administration in providing transitional assistance 

to members of the National Guard and Reserves in the State of 

South Dakota. Today I’m accompanied by Mr. John Smith of Sioux 

Falls, Director of the Regional Office for the Dakotas. My testimony 

will address the current outreach efforts in the Sioux Falls Regional Office and the transition assistance provided our servicemen 

and women in South Dakota. 

The Sioux Falls Regional Office provides a variety of veterans 

benefits and services including disability compensation, pension, 

and vocational rehabilitation and employment services. The office 

is actively involved in the outreach services and benefits counseling 

throughout the state. The Department of Veterans Affairs has a 

long history of special efforts to bring information on VA benefits 

and services to active duty military personnel. Returning service 

members including members of the National Guard and Reserves 

may elect to attend the formal three-day workshop provided 

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through the Transition Assistance Program, a joint effort of the 

VA, the Department of Defense, and Department of Labor. 

At TAP workshops service members are provided information describing the VA benefits available and are encouraged to apply for 

all benefits to which they are entitled. Additionally, service members receive employment assistance to include resume-writing, 

skills marketing, job referral, and other transitional services. 

The Sioux Falls Regional Office actively supports the commitment to provide a seamless transition to returning military members. In fiscal year 2005, the office conducted 12 Transition Assistance Program briefings here at Ellsworth Air Force Base for 483 

participants. To date in fiscal year 2006, the office has conducted 

nine briefings for 203 participants. 

The Sioux Falls Regional Office is working diligently to ensure 

members of the Guard and Reserve understand the VA benefits to 

which they may be entitled. So far in 2006, 60 South Dakota National Guard recruiters and 74 members of the Navy Reserve received training on VA benefits. 

Employees from the Regional Office also participated in the Veterans Benefits Forum hosted in Aberdeen in July of 2005. The office staffed an informational booth and answered questioned concerning VA benefits. Also in July of 2005, the office participated in 

the South Dakota Veterans Summit by providing an overview of 

VA benefits. Members of the National Guard and Reserves, County 

Veterans Service Officers, Veterans Service Officers, and Congressional staff members were in attendance at that meeting. The Regional Office is working diligently to ensure South Dakota National 

Guard Members’ transitions are as seamless as possible and are 

doing whatever they can to ensure members and their families are 

aware and know how to access VA medical care and benefits. 

VBA has also assisted in training 54 newly hired Department of 

Defense State Benefit Advisors. These individuals work for the 

State Adjutant General’s Office and serve a coordinating function 

between demobilizing National Guard and Reserve units and local 

VA facilities. There’s a State Benefit Advisor located in each State 

including one in South Dakota. 

Mr. Chairman, we at the VA are proud of our continuing role in 

serving this nation’s veterans. We continually evaluate and seek 

opportunities to improve the quality and scope of our outreach efforts to members of the military. I hope that my testimony today 

has provided you and the Subcommittee with a better understanding of the Transition Assistance Program extended by the 

Sioux Falls Regional Office to the veterans of South Dakota. Thank 

you for the opportunity to appear before you today. 

This concludes my testimony, and John and I would be pleased 

to answer any questions from Members of the Subcommittee. 

[The statement of Mr. Fillman appears on p. 74.] 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you. Ms. Herseth. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 

being here and for your testimony. We appreciate the work that 

you do. And thank you, Mr. McNulty, for filling in for Mr. Schultz. 

We’ll look forward to seeing him the next time. But just a couple 

of quick questions for each of you. 

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31 

First, Mr. McNulty, you addressed some of the same concerns 

that Ms. Moore and others have addressed in terms of spouses and 

their accessibility to some of the information provided in the TAP 

program, and one of the suggestions that I think someone made 

was to put the TAP manual on-line. Now you mentioned that currently the manual is on disk and that there are tapes available. Do 

you think that—is it on-line and should it be and do you think that 

that would help especially for remote access in states like South 

Dakota and Wyoming? 

Mr. MCNULTY. It is available on-line through NVTI, and I think 

having it on-line is certainly one way to provide it to people that 

are a long ways away. At Warren Air Force Base we’ve actually put 

the entire TAP Manual and all the handouts that anyone gives. It 

costs about 50 cents apiece to do those, and they’ve got everything 

that the presenters have given. Even when they go through it, they 

get that so that they can take it with them. It’s easy to keep all 

that information, and it keeps them from having to try to write 

down all the things that presenters are giving. And so I think those 

are potentially things that could work anywhere in the country. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you. And then, Mr. Brown, you provided a 

lot of very helpful information. I appreciate SBA being as involved 

as you are in the number of different outreach programs that you 

have, both short-term and long-term. 

In working with veteran entrepreneurs, how closely do you work 

the franchise businesses, franchise associations? That’s something 

that we’ve addressed at the Subcommittee level in the past in 

terms of, again, the flexibility of opportunities available to veterans, particularly those that are entrepreneurs. 

Mr. BROWN. Veterans we have found are really uniquely situated 

and prepared for entrepreneurship. They get military training and 

experience that prepares them in such a way that really years in 

other vocations could not. So they’re, to a large extent, very viable 

candidates for immediate entrepreneurship. Franchises are an excellent way for people to get into business, vets and non-vets. We 

work very closely with any number of national franchise organizations. For instance, we maintain in coordination with Franchise 

Registry a listing of franchises that are approved by SBA for an accelerated process through our loan programs. Usually when we receive an application for a franchise, it has to be screened, and 

largely we do that to protect the individual who is trying to gain 

access to that franchise and the loan to buy and get into that franchise. 

There are some covenants that are sometimes very difficult to 

comply with and that fundamentally take away rights that we 

want to make sure that the borrowers do have. So we review every 

franchise in the nation to get onto that registry. If they are on the 

registry—if a franchise is on the registry, it receives automatic approval as a franchise for the application. So in other words, the application does not have to go through a secondary review to approve the franchise organization itself. 

So we work very closely, and that’s a very viable way to move 

veterans into entrepreneurship. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you. Mr. Fillman, good to see you again. 

Thank you for the work that you do. A couple of questions for you. 

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32 

First, if you might want to comment on Mr. Summerside’s testimony as it relates to how do we more effectively, with participation 

by DOD and VA or the other partners here, utilize on-the-job training programs for veterans? If you wanted to comment on that as 

well as, I think, something similar that we heard today that we 

heard in Arkansas which is that there may be a difference as we 

look to the advantages and disadvantages of regionalization within 

the system and the impact of turnover as it relates to the different 

regional offices that our folks more locally are working with. And 

so if you might want to comment on any aspect of that testimony, 

and then the other thing I’d like you to address briefly is the VEAP 

decliner that was brought up in the first panel and what you see 

to be any sort of particularities that preclude those who may have 

declined their VEAP benefits in participating in these open windows of the past couple of defense re-authorizations. 

Mr. FILLMAN. Okay. I certainly think that we could probably be 

more involved in on-the-job training benefits. I think we have to 

get out in the communities to push those programs in efforts with 

the SAAs and those folks that really help us do that. It’s an excellent program, and I just believe that not enough employees—employers are aware of the benefits of hiring veterans and I think 

they make excellent employees. They come readily trained, they 

have skills to offer, and I think it is an area that probably is underutilized. 

I’m trying to remember now, the second part of your question 

was the results of turnover and this type of thing? 

Ms. HERSETH. [Nodding head up and down.] 

Mr. FILLMAN. I think turnover is different in different parts of 

the country. St. Louis—as George was talking about, St. Louis has 

had some turnover this past year which created some problems 

earlier in the year for them. We were able to assist them in getting 

their work load back under control. They’ve also been authorized 

to hire over 25 people in the last 60 days. 

They’re also looking at being sure that those offices are able to 

fill positions as they lose or as they are able to anticipate upcoming 

retirements so that we can get staff on board so that there is not 

a loss of expertise to delay benefits. This group that we just hired 

in St. Louis will be on board and be trained and ready to go this 

fall enrollment so that hopefully there will not be some of the 

delays that they saw this past year in fall enrollment. 

With the declination of the VEAP program, each individual service man looks at this differently. In many cases, I’m not familiar 

with the reasons that the military would recommend to these people not to participate. I certainly think, as we look at the changes 

to the education program, if there’s a way that we could include 

these people back in to give them the opportunity to use some education benefits that they missed. As our programs change over the 

years and evolve, we have done that in the past with areas that 

there weren’t any groups of veterans who were not included, when 

we wrote a new law, we brought those people back into the program, and that is possibly something that we could do for those 

folks. 

Ms. HERSETH. One last question, if I might. 

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33 

Mr. Smith, could you—just two short questions. If you could describe the current status of the claims work load at the Regional 

Office in Sioux Falls, and then in anticipation of next week’s—or 

this week’s hearing, I should say, and the other hearings we’ve 

had, I’m sure hopeful that your office is among those that the GAO 

or the Inspector General has found to be implementing effectively 

the recommendations of securing personal data, and perhaps you 

could talk just briefly about the steps that have been taken in the 

Regional Office in Sioux Falls before or since the news of some of 

the compromised data as it relates to the medical records. 

Mr. SMITH. Sure, I’d be glad to. First of all, with the work load 

in Sioux Falls, we have had very good performance. We’ve been 

able to have support for staffing that we might need as far as 

changes and increases in our work load. Right now we are in the 

very top ten in the United States as far as claims processing. Our 

average days pending is right around 100 days and our average 

days to complete claims since October of this year to date is 129 

days. 

We’ve been able to get good support, and I would like to comment 

saying that with our office in Sioux Falls, we could not achieve 

these results without the support of the national service officers, 

the State officers, the county veterans service officers, and the 

medical centers that complete our exams and provide us with the 

medical records. 

One of the things that you will find in the State of South Dakota 

is good cooperation and sharing of the resources and getting any 

of the information that we need. If you’re talking about transitional 

assistance, I think this State is one of the model states that provides good care for our soldiers and Guardsmen, and we all work 

together for the one common goal. 

So one of the things that I’ve enjoyed, and I’m on 29 and a half 

years in the Sioux Falls office in medical processing, is that we are 

unique in that aspect in that we do good performance, sustained 

performance in that aspect. 

Along with that, I will now talk about some of the current issues 

that are stressful to everybody and that would be the securing of 

the reference data. We have had minor breaches, if you want to 

look at it that way, of data that’s happened in the medical center 

medical releases. We have looked at our organization, both in VBA 

and VHA, to make sure that we have strong increased heightened 

awareness of this, and we have just completed two trainings with 

all of the entire staff on IT security and also physical security of 

the records themselves. We have taken steps to ensure that any offices that are off-base have secured those records. We have discontinued using untrackable methods of moving our records back and 

forth. We are looking at encrypting laptops that are taken out in 

the field to process our work and also our email communication. All 

the data that would be going on is doing that. 

Today we are looking in the Sioux Falls office as far as having 

some additional minor construction to restrict access into areas 

where we have claims processing. In the past we’ve had pretty 

much open campuses to where veterans would walk over, come in 

and sit down and talk to us. With today’s way of doing business, 

we have to reevaluate that and make sure that they still have the 

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opportunity to come in and talk to us, but also not to have them— 

I should say restrict any of those areas where we do have that concern. 

Ms. HERSETH. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. McNulty, have you seen an increase in 

USERRA claims, and can you comment on what’s going on in that 

regard? 

Mr. MCNULTY. I haven’t in my state. Earl Schultz did have a 

huge jump in claims because of a National Guard issue on past pay 

that when full-time National Guard people were required to use 

their own time rather than get 15 days off, he had, like, 70 claims 

all at once. Those have pretty much all been resolved nationally. 

Last year in Wyoming I had one claim. Earl, I think, had about five 

or six. 

I think that it was mentioned earlier ESGR in these states do 

an excellent job. What we’re trying to do up front is not only let 

the service member know that’s leaving to sit down with their employer, fill out where they’re going, what they’re going to be doing, 

and also what they will expect or what they should get by law 

when they come back. 

We’ve also been doing a number of employer seminars statewide. 

Senator Enzi came back for one of them, but we’re doing employer 

seminars so that most employers, if they’re aware—a lot of them 

don’t know there’s a law that require them to re-employ the veteran. And we’ve found, and this may not be typical nationwide, but 

claims could be going up, but I think that if we do a better job up 

front of educating employers and the Guard and Reserve members 

on what their responsibilities are, that when they come back, 

there’s a lot less problem. We’ve got employers that are, I mean, 

really impacted. We’ve got police departments in some towns that 

lose five police officers in a 30-man force all at once for a year and 

a half, and you can’t just go out on the street and say, ‘‘Well, we’ll 

hire you and you can be a police officer.’’ 

So I think there’s things that we can do, but it does have a huge 

impact on employers, and I think doing a better job up front by 

DOL and by ESGR and the Guard and Reserve of educating employers and their members and active duty personnel, too, that 

those will be reduced. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. MCNULTY. You’re welcome. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. Have you got anything, Ms. Herseth? 

Ms. HERSETH. No. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. I thank you all so much for being here and sharing your testimony. It really is appreciated. We’ve got some additional questions, without objection, that we’d appreciate your responding to. Again, thank you so much for the job that you’re doing 

for veterans. 

We talked earlier about thanking people, about thanking employers, and as I look out, I know we’ve got a lot of veterans represented here and we really do appreciate your service. We appreciate all you’ve done for your country, and that’s really what the 

Veterans Affairs Committee is all about. And we appreciate Ms. 

Herseth. Nobody’s working any harder in Washington for veterans 

than she is, so we appreciate her stance in that regard. 

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35 

Also our panelists. They’ve done a great job. We’ve learned a lot. 

We’ve learned some new things, but reinforced some old things that 

we’ve heard at other places. 

Also I appreciate the community. It’s been great. I’m from Arkansas so I guess what we’d call Southern hospitality has been very 

prevalent in this part of the country. A special thanks to Mr. Gerard Baker, the Superintendent at Mt. Rushmore, for giving us a 

great experience. Airman First Class Kyle Rosier, our driver, who’s 

done a great job. 

Christine Galbraith, the Director of the Family Center, who’s 

been showing us around. Mark Wheeler for our Base tour yesterday. Jeff Smith, the CO of the 28th. Colonel Bruce Emig, Vice 

Commander of the 28th. Our escorts Mark Ross and Andrea Miller. 

And then most importantly for Stephanie and me is our staff that 

really does make all of this happen. So we really appreciate Mike, 

Geoff and Devon and the local staff that’s been here, Leif and Lesley. Thanks to all of you. Have you got anything you’d like to say, 

Stephanie? 

Ms. HERSETH. Well, just a final comment. You know, I’ve been 

privileged to serve on the House Veterans Affairs Committee, and 

I appreciate the kind comments of the Chairman on how hard I’ve 

been working, but equally so as the leader of the Subcommittee 

and his participation in the full Committee is Chairman Boozman, 

and seeing that and seeing and having a chance to meet some of 

his constituents in the National Guard and others in his district a 

few months ago confirmed in my mind how fortunate I am to be 

able to work with him on this Subcommittee. 

At a number of different hearings, oftentimes when I’m posing 

questions to witnesses, they’ll often gently remind me, although I 

don’t necessarily need reminding, how great we’re doing in South 

Dakota on particular issues. And I oftentimes raise those issues because I know what we’re doing in South Dakota. I hope that we 

do serve as a model on a number of different things in serving veterans and the type of coordination we have among different agencies which is why I was so pleased that we could have a hearing 

here to make the record with some of our folks here in South Dakota and our friends in Wyoming that will join us to offer the type 

of testimony we heard today about the type of communication coordination that we do in leveraging limited resources, limited time, 

and sharing ideas and facilitating that exchange of information. 

I want to echo the thanks that the Chairman expressed to all 

those who have been part of our trip as well as to thank Colonel 

Smith and everyone here at Ellsworth Air Force Base for having 

us here. It is great to be here and to see folks that I’ve had a 

chance to work with on issues important to the Base as well as 

with our National Guard and Reserve leadership. 

And just to echo the thanks to our staff, Geoff Collver and Leif 

Oveson who work closely with me on issues for the Committee, 

and, of course, with Devon and Mike and Lesley Kandaras, my 

West River Director, and I know that we have Darrel Schumacher 

here from Senator Johnson’s staff. So I appreciate everyone taking 

the time and their interest in the issues discussed today. Thank 

you again, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BOOZMAN. The meeting is adjourned. 

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[Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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