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ANNUAL OPEN HEARING ON CURRENT 

AND PROJECTED NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS 

TO THE UNITED STATES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE 

OF THE

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29, 2014 

Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 
(II) 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE 

[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.] 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California, Chairman 

SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia, Vice Chairman 

JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West Virginia 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland 

MARK UDALL, Colorado 

MARK WARNER, Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

ANGUS KING, Maine 

RICHARD BURR, North Carolina 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

DANIEL COATS, Indiana 

MARCO RUBIO, Florida 

SUSAN COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

HARRY REID, Nevada, Ex Officio 

MITCH MCCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Ex Officio 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona, Ex Officio 

DAVID GRANNIS, Staff Director 

MARTHA SCOTT POINDEXTER, Minority Staff Director 

DESIREE THOMPSON-SAYLE, Chief Clerk 
(III) 

CONTENTS 

JANUARY 29, 2014 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Feinstein, Hon. Dianne, Chairman, a U.S. Senator from California .................. 1 

Chambliss, Hon. Saxby, Vice Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Georgia .............. 3 

WITNESS 

James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, Accompanied by: John 

O. Brennan, Director, Central Intelligence AgencyJames B. Comey, Jr., 

Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Lt. General Michael T. Flynn, 

Director, Defense Intelligence Agency, and Matthew G. Olsen, Director, 

National Counterterrorism Center ..................................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 8 

SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL 

Letter dated February 3, 2014, from Mr. Brennan to Senator Wyden regarding applicability of 18 U.S.C. 1030 to the CIA .................................................. 64 

(1) 

ANNUAL OPEN HEARING ON CURRENT 

AND PROJECTED NATIONAL SECURITY 

THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES 

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29, 2014 

U.S. SENATE, 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, the Honorable Dianne Feinstein (Chairman of the Committee) presiding. 

Committee Members Present: Senators Feinstein, Chambliss, 

Rockefeller, Wyden, Mikulski, Udall (of Colorado), Warner, 

Heinrich, King, Burr, Risch, Collins, and Rubio. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, 

CHAIRMAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. The meeting will come to order. 

Let me say at the outset that we hold this hearing to provide information to the public on the intelligence community’s assessments of threats facing our nation. I ask that everyone in this room 

remove any signs you may have and refrain from any disruptions 

during the hearing so that the Committee can conduct the hearing 

and people sitting behind you can see. I will ask the Capitol Police 

to remove anyone who disrupts this proceeding. 

This Committee meets today in open session to hear the annual 

report from the United States Intelligence Community on the range 

of threats to the nation’s security. And let me start by welcoming 

the witnesses. They are the Director of National Intelligence James 

Clapper, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency John Brennan, the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Jim 

Comey, the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency Lieutenant 

General Michael Flynn, and the Director of the National Counterterrorism Center Matt Olsen. 

Every year at this hearing, Members and intelligence officials 

alike talk about how the threats to the United States are more varied and complex than ever before, and this year is no exception. 

Rather than listing all the sources of instability and proliferation 

of weapons capable of causing physical and computer damage, I’d 

like to focus my opening remarks on the threat posed by terrorism. 

Thanks in large part to the efforts of the women and men of the 

Intelligence Community, there have been no terrorist attacks 

against—in the United States Homeland since our last threat hearing and numerous plots against United States interests overseas 
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have been prevented. I’m concerned that this success has led to a 

popular misconception that the threat has diminished. It has not. 

The presence of terrorist groups, including those formerly affiliated with al-Qaeda and others, has spread over the past year. 

While the threat emanating from Pakistan’s tribal areas has diminished due to persistent counterterrorism operations, the threat 

from other areas has increased. In fact, terrorism is at an all-time 

high worldwide. 

If you include attacks by groups like the Taliban against the 

United States military and our coalition forces, according to the 

National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Response to 

Terrorism, at the University of Maryland, which is the source for 

the State Department’s official tallies, there were more than 8,400 

terrorist attacks, killing 15,400 people in 2012. 

The instability that spread through North Africa and the Middle 

East during the Arab Spring has continued to lead to an increase 

in the terrorist presence and terrorist safe havens throughout the 

region. 

Libya, Egypt and Mali continue to see regular violence. Recent 

terrorist attacks, and controlled—control now parts of western Iraq 

are of great concern. 

While governments in Yemen and Somalia have improved, two of 

the most dangerous terrorist groups continue to find safe havens 

in these countries where they remain virulent. 

al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, known to us as AQAP, remains intent on attacking the United States. And al-Shaabab, 

which publicly merged with al-Qaeda in February of 2012, continues to plot against western targets in East Africa. 

But I think the most notable development since last year’s hearing is actually in Syria, which has become a magnet for foreign 

fighters and for terrorist activity. 

The situation has become so dire that even al-Qaeda’s central 

leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has announced the activities of one 

group as being too extreme to countenance. 

Because large swathes of the country of Syria are beyond the regime’s control, or that of the moderate opposition, this leads to the 

major concern of the establishment of safe haven, and the real 

prospect that Syria could become a launching point or way station 

for terrorists seeking to attack the United States or other nations. 

Not only are fighters being drawn to Syria, but so are technologies and techniques that pose particular problems to our defenses. 

I think I am also concerned about Afghanistan and the drawdown of U.S. and ISAF forces. The Committee has heard the intelligence community’s assessment of the likely outcomes for the future of Afghanistan, especially if the bilateral security agreement 

is not signed, and the United States is unable to commit significant 

personnel and resources beyond 2014. 

I am particularly concerned that the Afghan government will not 

be able to prevent the return of al-Qaeda elements to some parts 

of the country, and that the Taliban’s control over Afghan territory 

will grow. 

The vice chairman and I were in Afghanistan in 2012, and he 

has just returned. I saw schoolgirls walking home with their white 
3 

headdress and brilliant smiles on their faces on the streets of 

Kabul. And I also met women serving in the Afghan parliament. 

I saw their courage and devotion to their country. 

And I am deeply concerned that in the years following 2014, if 

President Karzai or someone else doesn’t sign the bilateral security 

agreement, all the gains for democracy, for women’s rights will 

evaporate. 

I’m going to skip some of this and put it in the record. 

As your testimony, gentlemen, makes clear today, there are numerous confounding and complicated threats out there that need 

devoted attention. And the Intelligence Community, with sequester 

and furloughs, has been through a very difficult time. 

And I’d very much like to thank the men and women of the 

United States Intelligence Community for their service to this 

country. It is very much appreciated by this Committee. 

I’d also like to note to colleagues that Director Clapper came before us in closed session two weeks ago and went through a series 

of classified matters. And we discussed what the I.C. is doing about 

them. He and other witnesses are available to answer classified 

questions in closed sessions. But the point of today’s hearing is to 

focus on the unclassified details of the threats we face, and to provide the American people with a better sense of how our Intelligence Community views them. 

Mr. Vice Chairman. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SAXBY CHAMBLISS, VICE 

CHAIRMAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA 

Vice Chairman CHAMBLISS. Thanks very much, Madam Chair, 

and I join you in welcoming all our witnesses back to this open 

hearing this morning. 

This has been an especially difficult year for the men and women 

in the Intelligence Community. The constant stream of press articles as a result of the largest intentional disclosure of classified information has, without a doubt, compromised our national security 

and complicated our foreign partnerships. 

As Director Olsen recently acknowledged, these disclosures have 

caused terrorist groups to change their communication methods 

and in other cases drop out of our collection altogether. 

But there’s another piece to these leaks that each one of you is 

seeing on a daily basis. The inaccuracies and insinuations about intelligence activities that are in place to protect this country are especially frustrating and demoralizing to the men and women on the 

front lines. 

This Committee knows from our oversight that the Intelligence 

Community takes very seriously its obligation to preserve the 

rights and privacy of Americans. 

Director Clapper, I implore you to convey our thanks and appreciation to the entire Intelligence Community and those men and 

women that serve under each and every one of you. 

Senator Burr and I recently returned from a trip to Jordan and 

Afghanistan, where we met some of the men and women of our 

military and our Intelligence Community. Many of them are serving in isolated units in very dangerous parts of Afghanistan, and 

are conducting very dangerous but very important missions. 
4 

In our meetings it became very clear that we cannot let Afghanistan suffer the same fate as Iraq. We must not withdraw from the 

fight before we finish what we went there to do. 

Recent press articles suggest that we may leave behind a force 

of 8,000 to 12,000 American military personnel, which would likely 

require continued support from the Intelligence Community. 

We’ve come a long way denying a safe haven to al-Qaeda and 

building up the security forces of our Afghan partners. But we 

must not commit the same mistake of losing what the President 

termed a must-win war. 

Assuming we have a signed bilateral security agreement, we 

must ensure that Afghanistan has adequate support and military 

assistance to ensure that it doesn’t quickly go the way of Iraq. 

As we continue to pressure core al-Qaeda, the growth of local and 

regional affiliates remains a big concern. 

The reason we went into Afghanistan in the first place was to 

remove the safe haven that, if the Taliban—and the Taliban provided to al-Qaeda, yet the instability, in the Middle East and North 

Africa seems to be fueling a new breeding ground for terrorism, especially in places like Syria. 

As we fight these changing terrorist threats, we must not lose 

sight of the national security challenges caused by our nation’s 

state adversaries, and regional instability. 

As we look to the Intelligence Community to give us a clear reading on what is happening now, we also expect that you will look 

over the horizon to tell us about the impending threats. 

In this context, recent discussions to limit your abilities to gather 

information are troubling. And I’d like an honest assessment from 

each of you the potential impact of each of these decisions. 

We have to make sure that the Community can effectively provide warning and protection for all of this country’s national security interests now and in the future. 

It is the joint responsibility of Congress and the administration 

to ensure that we prioritize our efforts appropriately, state and 

nonstate cyber actors, international and home-grown terrorists, 

and an ever-evolving list of aggressors, proliferators and criminals 

will continue to try to do us harm. 

At any given time the Intelligence Community has to know 

which of these threats presents the greatest potential harm. I look 

forward to hearing the details of what those threats are, what is 

being done to address them, and how we, as your partners in this 

effort, can assist. 

Thanks, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. And I thank you, Mr. Vice Chairman. 

I’d like to announce to the Committee that last night we announced that the early bird rules would prevail today. 

I want to welcome the panel. And Director Clapper, it’s my understanding you have a joint statement for the four gentlemen and 

yourself. Please proceed. 

STATEMENT OF JAMES R. CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL 

INTELLIGENCE, ON BEHALF OF THE PANEL 

Director CLAPPER. Madam Chairman, Vice Chairman, panelists 

and distinguished Members of the Committee, my colleagues and 
5 

I here today present the intelligence community’s worldwide threat 

assessment as we do every year. I’ll cover five topics in about eight 

minutes on behalf of all of us. 

As DNI, this is my fourth appearance before the Committee to 

discuss the threats we face. I’ve made this next assertion previously, but it is, if anything, even more evident and relevant 

today. 

Looking back over my more than half a century in intelligence 

I have not experienced a time when we’ve been beset by more crises and threats around the globe. My list is long. 

It includes the scourge and diversification of terrorism, loosely 

connected and now globally dispersed to include here at home as 

exemplified by the Boston Marathon bombing; the sectarian war in 

Syria, its attraction as a growing center of radical extremism and 

the potential threat this poses to the Homeland; the spillover of 

conflict in the neighboring Lebanon and Iraq; the destabilizing 

flood of refugees in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon; the implications 

of the drawdown in Afghanistan; the deteriorating internal security 

posture in Iraq; the growth of foreign cyber capabilities; the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, aggressive nation state 

intelligence efforts against us; an assertive Russia, a competitive 

China, a dangerous, unpredictable North Korea, a challenging Iran, 

lingering ethnic divisions in the Balkans, perpetual conflict and extremism in Africa, violent political struggles, and among others the 

Ukraine, Burma, Thailand and Bangladesh; the specter of mass 

atrocities, the increasing stress of burgeoning populations, the urgent demands for energy, water and food, the increasing sophistication of transnational crime, the tragedy and magnitude of human 

trafficking, the insidious rot of inventive synthetic drugs, the potential for pandemic disease occasioned by the growth of drug-resistant bacteria. 

I could go on with this litany but suffice to say we live in a complex, dangerous world. And the statements for the record that 

we’ve submitted, particularly the classified version, provide a comprehensive review of these and other daunting challenges. 

My second topic is what has consumed extraordinary time and 

energy for much of the past year in the Intelligence Community 

and the Congress and the White House, and, of course, in the public square. 

I’m speaking, of course, about the most massive and most damaging theft of intelligence information in our history by Edward 

Snowden and the ensuing avalanche of revelations published and 

broadcast around the world. 

I won’t dwell on the debate about Snowden’s motives or legal 

standing, or on the supreme ironies associated with his choice of 

freedom-loving nations and beacons of free expression from which 

to rail about what an Orwellian state he thinks this country has 

become. 

But what I do want to speak to as the nation’s senior intelligence 

officer is the profound damage that his disclosures have caused and 

continue to cause. As a consequence, the nation is less safe and its 

people less secure. 

What Snowden has stolen and exposed has gone way, way beyond his professed concerns with so-called domestic surveillance 
6 

programs. As a result, we’ve lost critical foreign intelligence collection sources, including some shared with us by valued partners. 

Terrorists and other adversaries of this country are going to 

school on U.S. intelligence sources’ methods and trade craft and the 

insights that they are gaining are making our job much, much 

harder. 

And this includes putting the lives of members or assets of the 

Intelligence Community at risk, as well as our armed forces, diplomats, and our citizens. We’re beginning to see changes in the 

communications behavior of adversaries, which you alluded to, particularly terrorists, a disturbing trend which I anticipate will continue. 

Snowden claims that he’s won and that his mission is accomplished. If that is so, I call on him and his accomplices to facilitate 

the return of the remaining stolen documents that have not yet 

been exposed to prevent even more damage to U.S. security. 

As a third related point I want to comment on the ensuing fallout. It pains me greatly that the National Security Agency and its 

magnificent workforce have been pilloried in public commentary. 

I started in the intelligence profession 50 years ago in SIGINT, 

and members of my family and I have worked at NSA, so this is 

deeply personal to me. The real facts are, as the President noted 

in his speech on the 17th, that the men and women who work at 

NSA, both military and civilian, have done their utmost to protect 

this country and do so in a lawful manner. 

As I and other leaders in the Community have said many times, 

NSA’s job is not to target the e-mails and phone calls of U.S. citizens. The agency does collect foreign intelligence, the whole reason 

an NSA has existed since 1952, performing critical missions that 

I’m sure the American people want it to carry out. 

Moreover, the effects of the unauthorized disclosures hurt the entire Intelligence Community, not just NSA. Critical intelligence capabilities in which the United States has invested billions of dollars are at risk, or likely to be curtailed or eliminated either because of compromise or conscious decision. 

Moreover, the impact of the losses caused by the disclosures will 

be amplified by the substantial budget reductions we’re incurring. 

The stark consequences of this perfect storm are plainly evident. 

The Intelligence Community is going to have less capacity to protect our nation, and its allies, than we’ve had. 

And this connection I’m also compelled to note the negative morale impact this perfect storm has had on the I.C. workforce which 

are compounded by sequestration furloughs, the shutdown, and salary freezes. And in that regard, I very much appreciate—we all 

do—your tributes to the women and men of the Intelligence Community. And we will certainly convey that to all of them. 

This leads me to my fourth point. We are thus faced with collectively—and by collectively I mean this Committee, the Congress at 

large, the executive branch, and most acutely, all of us in the Intelligence Community—is the inescapable imperative to accept more 

risk. It’s a plain hard fact, and a circumstance the Community 

must, and will manage, together with you and those we support in 

the executive branch. 
7 

But, if dealing with reduced capacities is what we need to ensure 

the faith and confidence of the American people and their elected 

representatives, then we in the Intelligence Community will work 

as hard as we can to meet the expectations before us. 

And that brings me to my fifth and final point. The major take 

away for us, certainly for me, from the past several months is that 

we must lean in the direction of transparency, wherever and whenever we can. With greater transparency about these intelligence 

programs, the American people may be more likely to accept them. 

The President set the tone and direction for us in his speech, as 

well as in his landmark presidential policy directive, a major hallmark of which is transparency. 

I have specific tasking, in conjunction with the Attorney General, 

to conduct further declassification to develop additional protections 

under Section 702 of the FISA Act, to modify how we develop bulk 

collection of telephone metadata under Section 215 of the Patriot 

Act and to ensure more oversight of sensitive collection activities. 

And clearly we’ll need your support in making these changes. 

Through all of this, we must and will sustain our professional 

trade craft and integrity. And we must continue to protect our 

crown jewel sources and methods so that we can accomplish what 

we’ve always been chartered to do, protect the lives of American 

citizens here and abroad from the myriad threats I described at the 

beginning of this statement. 

With that, I’ll conclude and we’re ready to address your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Clapper follows:] 
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Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much Director Clapper, 

and thank you for being so up front. 

I wanted to ask you one question about Syria, and then Mr. 

Olsen, a question about Sochi. 

Your written statement for the record I believe states, Director 

Clapper, that Syria has become a significant location for independent or al-Qaeda aligned groups to recruit, train and equip a 

growing number of extremists, some of whom might conduct external attacks. 

Could you respond to this, and how concerned should we be also 

about Europeans or even Americans training in Syria and traveling 

back to the West to carry out attacks? 

Director CLAPPER. Well we should be very concerned about this, 

Senator Feinstein. Syria has become a huge magnet for extremists. 

First those groups who are engaged in Syria itself, some 1,600 

different groups. We estimate somewhere in the neighborhood of 

between 75,000 and 110,000, of which about 26,000 we grade as extremists. We estimate, at this point, an excess of 7,000 foreign 

fighters have been attracted from some 50 countries, many of them 

in Europe and the Mideast. 

And this is of great concern not only to us, but to those countries. 

And our recent engagements with our foreign interlocutors, and 

particularly in Europe, tremendous concern here for those extremists who are attracted to Syria, engage in combat, get training, and 

we’re seeing now the appearance of training complexes in Syria to 

train people to go back to their countries, and, of course, conduct 

more terrorist acts. 

So this is a huge concern to all of us. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much. Mr. Olsen, on 

Sochi, I’d like to know what your assessment is of the threat to the 

Olympic Games and whether you believe our athletes will be safe. 

And I’d like Director Comey to respond to the level of cooperation 

between the Russians, and the FBI, with respect to security at the 

Olympic Games. 

Mr. Olsen. 

Director OLSEN. Yes, thank you very much, Madam Chairman 

and Vice Chairman. 

Let me just say at the outset, I appreciate your leadership, and 

in particular your focus on terrorism, and leadership of the entire 

Committee. 

And if I may say just as well, I fully agree with Director Clapper’s assessment of the situation in Syria. And as you laid out in 

your opening statement, the combination of a permissive environment, extremist groups like Al Nusra and the number of foreign 

fighters combine to make Syria a place that we are very concerned 

about, in particular the potential for terrorist attacks emanating 

from Syria to the West. 

Now, with respect to your question about Sochi, we are very focused on the Sochi Olympics and we have seen an up-tick in the 

threat reporting regarding Sochi. And this is what we expected 

given where the Olympics are located. 

There are a number of extremists in that area and in particular, 

a group, Emirate Caucasus, which is probably the most prominent 

terrorist group in Russia. 
40 

The leader of the group, last July, announced in a public message that the group would intend to carry out attacks in Sochi in 

connection with the Olympics. And we’ve seen a number of attacks 

stemming from last fall’s suicide bombings in Volgograd that took 

a number of lives. 

So we’re very focused on the problem of terrorism in the run-up 

to the Olympics. I would add that I traveled to Sochi last December, and met with Russian security officials. They understand the 

threat. They are very focused on this, and devoting substantial resources. 

The biggest issue from my perspective is not the games themselves, the venues themselves. There’s extensive security at those 

locations, the sites of the events. The greater threat is to softer targets in the greater Sochi area, and in the outskirts beyond Sochi, 

where there is a substantial potential for a terrorist attack. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Comey, would you tell us what you can about cooperation between Russia and your organization? 

Director COMEY. Certainly. Senator, the cooperation between the 

FSB and the FBI in particular has been steadily improving over 

the last year. We’ve had exchanges at all levels, particularly in connection with Sochi, including me directly to my counterpart at FSB. 

And I think that we have a good level of cooperation there. 

It can always improve. We’re looking for ways to improve it, as 

are they. But this, as Director Olsen said, remains a big focus of 

the FBI. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you. 

Mr. Vice Chairman. 

Vice Chairman CHAMBLISS. Thanks, Madam Chair. 

Director Clapper, you assess in your statement for the record 

that core al-Qaeda has been on a downward trajectory since 2008, 

and that their ability to conduct complex, sophisticated, and largescale attacks against the Homeland is significantly degraded. 

However, at the same time, you assess that AQAP poses a significant threat and remains intent on targeting the United States 

and U.S. interests overseas. What I’d like to do is to have you first 

start off Director Clapper, but I want kind of a general discussion 

about al-Qaeda, not just core al-Qaeda, but their threat to the 

United States, both domestically as well as overseas. 

And each of you have kind of a different interest there. Even 

down to you, Director Comey, obviously with respect to homegrown 

terrorists, and the future there. So these are kind of the questions 

I’d like for you to address. 

One, how would you characterize the probability of an al-Qaedasponsored or -inspired attack against U.S. Homeland today, as 

compared to 2001? 

If al-Qaeda is evolving from a centralized core group to a decentralized global movement of multiple organizations, capable of attacking the United States, would you say the threat has decreased 

or increased? 

Third has the terrorist threat against the U.S. interests overseas 

increased or diminished over the past decade? 
41 

And then lastly, what—what is the impact on limitations that 

are proposed on Sections 215 and 702 likely to have on the future 

of the Intelligence Community with regard to collection. 

Vice Chairman CHAMBLISS. Director Clapper. 

Director CLAPPER. Thank you, Vice Chairman Chambliss. 

Let me start, and then I’ll turn to others. 

I think—in fact NCTC probably said it best recently that the— 

one of—the ideological center of al-Qaeda movement I think still 

remains in the FATA. The operational locus and the locus for operational planning has dispersed. There are some five different franchises at least, and in 12 countries that this movement has 

morphed into. And we see sort of chapters of it, of course, in 

Yemen, Somalia, in North Africa, in Syria, et cetera. 

And many of these movements, while essentially locally focused, 

probably the most—still, I think, the most prominent one that has 

an external focus and specifically on the Homeland remains AQAP, 

which I think we—we still continue to view as, of all the franchises, the one that has the most—poses the most immediate 

threat to—for a potential attack on the Homeland. 

The probability of attack now compared to 2001 is, at least for 

me, a very hard question to answer because—principally because 

of this very dispersion and diffusion of the threat. Whereas we 

were very, very focused initially, particularly in that—in that time 

period on al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda core. Now, we are facing a much 

more dispersed threat. 

The—what we spoke about before in Syria, what’s going on there 

is in maybe some respects a new FATA for us. And the—and 

what’s going on there and the attraction of these foreign fighters 

is very, very worrisome. Aspirationally, al-Nusra Front, to name 

one, is—does have aspirations for attacks on the Homeland. 

So, I can’t say that—that, you know, the threat is any less. I— 

I think our ability to discern it is much improved over what it was 

in the—in the early part of—the 2000 period. So, I think that dispersion and decentralization actually creates a different threat and 

a harder one to watch and detect because of its dispersion. 

It’s clear as well that our collection capabilities are not as robust, 

perhaps, as they were because the terrorists—and this is not specifically because of the Snowden revelations—but generally have 

gotten smarter about how we go about our business and how we 

use trade-craft to detect them and to thwart them. 

As far as what impacts the changes that will accrue, hopefully 

we can, particularly with respect to 215 and the other tools that 

we have, we can minimize the threat by—as we make these modifications and alterations. But in general, this is big hand/little map, 

we are in total going to certainly have less capacity than we had 

in the past. And that’s occasioned by the changes we’re going to 

make, as well as, you know, the significant budget cuts we’re taking. 

And those two things together, as I alluded to in my oral statement, kind of the perfect storm that we’re going to—we’re going to 

contend with. And the bottom line, at least for me, is that we’re 

going to have to identify and—and be eyes wide open—I say ‘‘we’’— 

all of us—about identifying risk and managing it. 

Let me turn to my colleagues. 
42 

John. 

Director BRENNAN. Just agree with General Clapper. The diversity and dispersion have made it much more challenging for us. We 

need to rely heavily on partners and building up capacity in a number of countries throughout the world. 

The terrorists are becoming more sophisticated and they’re going 

to school on the repeated disclosures and leaks so that it has allowed them to burrow in—has made it much more difficult for us 

to find them and to address the threats that they pose. 

So, when I look at the threat relative to 9/11, we as a country 

have done I think a great job of addressing some of the 

vulnerabilities that exist in our system and putting together an information-sharing architecture that allows us to move information 

very quickly, but you never know what you don’t know. And with 

the increasing diversity of the threat and with the growth, as you 

pointed out, of terrorist elements in places like Syria and Yemen, 

we have a number of fronts that we need to confront simultaneously. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Vice Chairman. 

Senator Heinrich. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Chairman. 

Thank you all for joining us today, and I want to thank you for 

participating in this open hearing on worldwide threats. I know it’s 

not always easy to talk about some of these things in an unclassified setting, but I certainly appreciate your willingness to try. 

I also want to publicly thank the men and women of the Intelligence Community who day-in and day-out dedicate themselves to 

keeping us all safe. It’s a thankless job that a simple expression of 

gratitude can’t fully capture, but we deeply appreciate their efforts. 

Before I get to my questions today, Mr. Brennan, I just want to 

publicly note my continued disappointment of how the CIA under 

your leadership has chosen to engage and interact with this Committee, especially as it relates to the Committee’s study of the 

CIA’s detention and interrogation program. 

Recent efforts undertaken by the CIA, including but not limited 

to inaccurate public statements about the Committee study, are 

meant to intimidate, deflect, and thwart legitimate oversight. It 

only makes me firmer in my conviction that the Committee should 

release and declassify the full 6,300-page study with minimal 

redactions so that the public can judge the facts for themselves. 

I want to applaud my colleague, Senator Rockefeller, for making 

significant efforts to bridge the chasm between the Committee and 

Director Brennan on some of these issues. But it doesn’t appear to 

be in the director’s nature to accept these overtures, frankly. And 

I think that’s incredibly unfortunate. I am fully confident in the 

factual accuracy of the report and nothing in your response so far 

has persuaded me otherwise. 

Director Brennan, let me get to a few questions. On March 16th, 

2009, one of your predecessors, CIA Director Leon Panetta, announced the creation of a Director’s Review Group for Rendition, 

Detention and Interrogation, to be led by a well-respected senior 

CIA officer and advised by Senator Warren Rudman, who passed 

away, as you know, in 2012. 
43 

According to the press release at the time, the group was tasked 

with assembling data and formulating positions on the ‘‘complex, 

often controversial questions that define rendition, detention and 

interrogation.’’ 

Do you know when and why the Panetta review group was disbanded? 

Director BRENNAN. Senator, first of all, I respectfully but vehemently disagree with your characterization of the CIA’s cooperation 

with this Committee. I am fully prepared to come forward to this 

Committee at any time that requests my appearance, to talk about 

that study. 

And I think, related to the issue that you just raised in terms 

of the question, all Committee Members are in receipt of some information that I have provided recently to the chairman and vice 

chairman on this issue. And I look forward to addressing these 

matters with the Committee at the appropriate time and not at a 

threat assessment— 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you, Mr. Brennan. I believe that’s 

appropriate. 

Senator HEINRICH. Actually, it doesn’t fully answer the question 

of whether—and I’m not sure that I do know actually when and 

why the Panetta review group was disbanded. 

Director BRENNAN [continuing]. I’ll be happy to address that 

question at the time when the Committee leadership requests that 

information from me. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you. I think that’s appropriate, Senator, for a classified session. 

Senator HEINRICH. OK. Let me move on to Director Clapper and 

change gears a little bit to Edward Snowden. The revelations by 

Edward Snowden regarding U.S. intelligence collection have obviously caused some tensions with our European allies. Have our European allies ever collected intelligence against U.S. officials or 

business people, or those of other allied nations? 

Director CLAPPER. Yes, they have. I could go into more detail on 

that in a classified session. 

Senator HEINRICH. That’s fine, Director Clapper. 

Russia recently announced that it would extend Edward 

Snowden’s asylum and not force him to leave their country. Do you 

believe that the Russians have gained access to the documents that 

Edward Snowden stole, which obviously—many of which have not 

been released publicly, fortunately? 

Director CLAPPER. I think this might be best left to a classified 

session and I don’t want to do any—say or do anything that would 

jeopardize a current investigation. 

Senator HEINRICH. That’s fine, Director. 

Thank you, Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Senator Wyden. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. 

Let me start by saying that the men and women of America’s intelligence agencies are overwhelmingly dedicated professionals and 

they deserve to have leadership that is trusted by the American 

people. 

Unfortunately, that trust has been seriously undermined by senior officials’ reckless reliance on secret interpretations of the law 
44 

and battered by years of misleading and deceptive statements senior officials made to the American people. 

These statements did not protect sources and methods that were 

useful in fighting terror. Instead, they hid bad policy choices and 

violations of the liberties of the American people. 

For example, the director of the NSA said publicly that the NSA 

doesn’t hold data on U.S. citizens. That was obviously untrue. 

Justice Department officials testified that Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act is analogous to grand jury subpoena authority. And 

that deceptive statement was made on multiple occasions. 

Officials also suggested that the NSA doesn’t have the authority 

to read Americans’ e-mails without a warrant. But the FISA court 

opinions declassified last August showed that wasn’t true either. 

So, for purposes of trying to move this dialogue along, because 

I don’t think this culture of misinformation is going to be easily 

fixed, I’d like to get into several other areas where the government’s interpretation of the law is still unclear. 

Director Clapper, law-abiding Americans want to protect the privacy of their communications, and I see a clear need to strengthen 

protections for informations—for information sent over the web or 

stored in the cloud. 

Declassified court documents show that in 2011, the NSA sought 

and obtained the authority to go through communications collected 

with respect to Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence and Surveillance Act, and conduct warrantless searches for the communications of specific Americans. 

Can you tell us today whether any searches have ever been conducted? 

Director CLAPPER. Senator Wyden, I think at a threat hearing 

this would—I would prefer not to discuss this, and have this as a 

separate subject that—because there are very complex legal issues 

here that I just don’t think this is the appropriate time to discuss 

them. 

Senator WYDEN. When would that time be? I tried with written 

questions, Director Clapper, a year ago, to get answers. And we 

were stonewalled on that. And this Committee can’t do oversight 

if we can’t get direct answers. 

So when will you give the American people a unclassified answer 

to that question that relates directly to their privacy? 

Director CLAPPER. As soon as we can—soon, sir. I’ll commit to 

that. 

Senator WYDEN. What would be wrong with 30 days? 

Director CLAPPER. That’s fine. 

Senator WYDEN. All right. Thank you. That’s making some 

progress. 

Director Brennan, a question with respect to policy. Does the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act apply to the CIA? Seems to 

me that’s a yes-or-no question. 

Director BRENNAN. I would have to look into what that act actually calls for and its applicability to CIA’s authorities. I’ll be happy 

to get back to you, Senator, on that. 

Senator WYDEN. How long would that take? 

Director BRENNAN. I’ll be happy to get back to you as soon as 

possible. But certainly no longer than— 
45 

Senator WYDEN. A week? 

Director BRENNAN [continuing]. I think that I could get that back 

to you, yes. 

Senator WYDEN. Very good. 

Let me ask a question of you, then, if I might, Director Comey. 

I’d like to ask you about the government’s authority to track individuals using things like cell site location information and 

smartphone applications. 

Last fall, the NSA director testified that we, the NSA, identify 

a number we can give that to the FBI. When they get their probable cause, then they can get the locational information they need. 

I’ve been asking the NSA to publicly clarify these remarks, but 

it hasn’t happened yet. 

So, is the FBI required to have probable cause in order to acquire 

Americans’ cell site location information for intelligence purposes? 

Director COMEY. I don’t believe so, Senator. In almost all circumstances we have to obtain a court order, but the showing is a 

reasonable basis to believe it’s relevant to the investigation. 

Senator WYDEN. So you don’t have to show probable cause, you 

have cited another standard. Is that standard different if the government is collecting the location information from a smartphone 

app rather than a cell phone tower? 

Director COMEY. I don’t think I know—I probably ought to ask 

someone who is a little smarter on what the standard is that governs those. I don’t know the answer sitting here, 

Senator WYDEN. My time is up. Can I have an answer to that 

within a week? 

Director COMEY. You sure can. 

Senator WYDEN. All right. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you, Senator Wyden. 

Senator Udall let me apologize to you, I inadvertently skipped 

over your name and called on Senator Wyden, but it’s your moment. 

Senator UDALL. No apologies, Madam Chair. 

Good morning to all of you. Thank you for being here. 

I, too, want to make it clear how much this Committee respects 

and admires the hardworking members of the Intelligence Community. And I know everyone on this Committee keeps this worldwide 

threat assessment handy. 

It’s not reading that puts you to sleep; it’s reading that gets your 

attention. I want to thank you and your teams for putting this together. 

I did want to pick up on Senator Heinrich’s line of questioning. 

Director Brennan, you know the long history of this committee’s 

study of our detention interrogation programs. I’d like to put my 

statement in the record that walks us through that—that record, 

but I did want to focus initially on the CIA internal review, some 

people call it the Panetta review. 

Were you aware of this CIA internal review when you provided 

the CIA’s official response to this Committee in June of last year? 

I don’t have much time, so I’d appreciate a yes-or-no answer. 

Director BRENNAN. It wasn’t a review, Senator, it was a summary. And at the time, no, I had not gone through it. 
46 

Senator UDALL. It strikes me as a bit improbable, given that you 

knew about the internal review, and you spoke to us and stated 

that your obligation as the CIA director was to make sure that the 

CIA’s response was as thorough and accurate as possible. 

But, in that context, let me move to the next question, does the 

information in the internal review contradict any of the positions 

included in your June 2013 response to the Committee? 

Director BRENNAN. Senator, I’d respectfully like to say that I 

don’t think this is the proper format for that discussion, because 

our responses to your report were in classified form. And I look forward to addressing these questions with the Committee at the appropriate time. 

Senator UDALL. Let me make sure I understand. Are you saying 

that the CIA officers who were asked to produce this internal review got it wrong, just like you’ve said, the Committee got it 

wrong? We had 6,300 pages, 6 million documents, 35,000 footnotes. 

Director BRENNAN. Senator, as you well know, I didn’t say that 

the Committee got it wrong. I said there were things in that report 

that I disagreed with, there were things in that report that I 

agreed with. And I look forward to working with the Committee on 

the next steps in that report. 

And I stand by my statement. I’m prepared to deal with the 

Committee to make sure that we’re able to address the issue of the 

detention, rendition interrogation program at the appropriate time. 

Look forward to it. 

Senator UDALL. Madam Chair, I still have two minutes remaining. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. You do; I beg your pardon. 

Senator UDALL. Let me move to the Snowden disclosures and 

what I think has been clearly outlined as a trust deficit that exists 

between the public and the Intelligence Community. 

This Committee was created to address a severe breach of trust 

that developed. When it was revealed that the CIA was conducting 

unlawful domestic searches, the Church Committee went to work, 

found that to be true. 

I want to be able to reassure the American people, especially 

given what’s been happening, that the CIA and the director understand the limits of their mission and of its authorities. 

We all are well aware of Executive Order 12333. That order prohibits the CIA from engaging in domestic spying and searches of 

U.S. citizens within our borders. 

Can you assure the Committee that the CIA does not conduct 

such domestic spying and searches? 

Director BRENNAN. I can assure the Committee that the CIA follows the letter and spirit of the law, in terms of what CIA’s authorities are, in terms of its responsibilities to collect intelligence 

that keep this country safe. Yes, Senator, I do. 

Senator UDALL. Let me—let me finish on this note; I think we 

have an important opportunity when it comes to this vital review 

that we undertook. We can set the record straight. 

America is at its best when we acknowledge our mistakes and 

learn from those mistakes. 
47 

It’s clear that the detention, rendition and interrogation programs of the CIA went over the line over last—during the first decade of this century. 

Director Brennan, I don’t understand why we can’t work together 

to clarify the record, to move forward. And, in so doing, acknowledge the tremendous work of those you lead, and those that were 

tasked on this Committee to oversee. 

I’m hopeful that we can find our way forward on this important, 

important act. Thank you. 

Director BRENNAN. I hope we can, too, Senator. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you, very much. 

I want to apologize to Senator Collins, because I didn’t indicate 

initially that we would go back and forth. So the list is actually 

who got here first, but it’s Senator Mikulski next, and then Senator 

Collins. 

Senator MIKULSKI. I would be happy to yield to Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. The chairman of the Appropriations Committee 

always goes first. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Senator, please proceed. 

Senator MIKULSKI. First of all, to those here on the panel and 

other members of agencies representing the Intelligence Community, like Homeland Security, I too, want to echo my thanks and 

support for all employees who work in the Intelligence Community. 

And General Clapper, I want to say to you, I recall in last year’s 

hearing you asked for flexibility for the Intel Committee as we 

faced sequester. During this at times even intense hearing today, 

I want you to know that even the chairman and vice chairman supported by the entire Members of this Committee worked with me 

to try to get flexibility for you. 

We were stopped by the House of Representatives during the CR 

to get you that flexibility. But I want you to know today, we were 

united to try to get you, and therefore the Intelligence Community, 

that. 

So we’re on the side of the employees facing furloughs, sequester, 

and so on. Thanks now to the budget agreement, and what we were 

able to do in the consolidated appropriations, we think that part is 

behind. So we look forward to working with you as we listen to 

those needs. 

I want to come, though, to the employees there. And no group of 

employees has been battered more than the men and women who 

work at the National Security Agency because of the illegal leaks 

by Edward Snowden. NSA has been battered, and by de facto, so 

have the employees of the National Security Agency. 

We’re all well aware that the morale is extremely low there because of budget impacts and the impacts of Snowden. 

Let me go to my point, though. The men and women who work 

at the National Security Agency truly believe that what they do, 

particularly under 215 and 702, is constitutional, is legal, was authorized, and was necessary. 

So they felt they were doing a good job defending America. I 

would like to come to the constitutionality and engage your support 

and get your reviews. 

There are now several legal opinions about the constitutionality 

of these programs, and now, as we engage upon the reform effort, 
48 

which—I support review and reform—being led by many members 

of this Committee, that we need to determine the constitutionality. 

Would you—because if it’s not constitutional, that’s it—General 

Clapper, would you, consulting with the Department of Justice, the 

White House, ask for an expedited review by the Supreme Court 

of the United States to determine the constitutionality of these programs so that we don’t continually shop for the legal opinion that 

we want, either one side or the other? 

Director CLAPPER. I’ll discuss this with the Attorney General. I 

am not up on what the protocol is for us seeking a reading by the 

Supreme Court, but— 

Senator MIKULSKI. Is there a sense of urgency within the administration to seek such a constitutional determination? 

Director CLAPPER [continuing]. I think there’s—well, I can’t 

speak for the administration. I don’t know. I would think there 

would be, since we, to your point, think throughout all of this and 

with all the controversy that we all felt, and still feel, that what 

we were doing was legal, was oversighted, both by all three 

branches of the government. 

There is a current court ruling on the Fourth Amendment ruling 

which, of course, if data is provided to a third party, it doesn’t— 

Senator MIKULSKI. General Clapper, there are 36 different legal 

opinions. 

Director CLAPPER [continuing]. I realize that. 

Senator MIKULSKI. Thirty-six say the program is constitutional. 

Director CLAPPER. And— 

Senator MIKULSKI. Judge Leon said it’s not. I’m not a— 

Director CLAPPER [continuing]. Nor are we. 

Senator MIKULSKI [continuing]. And I respect the appeals process, but I think we’ve got to get a constitutional ruling on this as 

quickly as possible. 

I think the American people are entitled to knowing that, and I 

think the men and women who work at NSA need to know that. 

And I think those of you who want final review on reform need to 

know that. 

Director CLAPPER. I couldn’t agree with you more about the need 

for clarity on these issues for the women and men of the Intelligence Community who are trying to do the right thing. 

Senator MIKULSKI. Now, I would like to come to cybersecurity. 

And Director Comey, as you know, Target’s been hit, Neiman 

Marcus has been hit, Michael’s, who knows what else. 

What I find is in the public’s mind there’s confusion now between 

cybersecurity and surveillance. They’ve kind of comingled these 

words, but my question to you is two things. 

Is the impact of the Snowden affair slowing us down in our work 

to be more aggressive in the cybersecurity area, particularly as it 

relates to American people, identity, the safety of their credit cards, 

our grid, et cetera? 

And has the failure of us to pass cybersecurity regulatory efforts 

really aided and abetted these—has been a contributing factor to 

the fact that international prime is now targeting us? 

Director COMEY. Thank you, Senator. 

With respect to the work being done by the men and women in 

law enforcement to respond to cyber threats, especially those 
49 

around financial fraud and theft, we’re working as hard as ever to 

try to address those threats. 

What the storm around surveillance and the leaks has done is 

just complicated the discussion about what tools we use to do that. 

So in that respect, it’s made our life more complicated. I think that 

people need to realize there is threat of fraud and theft, because 

we’ve connected our entire lives to the Internet. And that’s a place 

where we, using our law enforcement authorities, have to be able 

to respond robustly. 

Senator MIKULSKI. Do you think Congress needs to pass legislation in this area? 

Director COMEY. Yes, I do. 

Senator MIKULSKI. Do you feel that there’s an urgency around 

that and we should review those original legislation, even as a 

starting point for negotiation? 

Director COMEY. There is. One of the critical parts of responding 

to cyber criminals is information sharing. The private sector sees 

the bad guys coming in. We need to make sure that the private sector understands the rules of the road and how they share that information with the government. 

Senator MIKULSKI. My time is up. 

I just want to say also, during the sequester and so on, I read 

these wonderful documents that came from voluntary organizations 

associated with the FBI. It was called, ‘‘Voices from the field.’’ They 

were quite poignant, and it shows that when they say with sequester they didn’t want to exempt the feds, when our first line of defense, in many ways, is what we see at this table. 

So would you thank the agents for us? 

Director COMEY. I will. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Senator Collins. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

General Flynn, thus far in the discussion today and in general, 

there has been very little focus on the damage that Edwin (sic) 

Snowden has done to our military. I read the DIA assessment, and 

it is evident to me that most of the documents stolen by Mr. 

Snowden have nothing to do with the privacy rights and civil liberties of American citizens, or even the NSA collection programs. 

Indeed, these documents—and we’ve heard the number, 1.7 million documents—are in many cases multipages. If you printed them 

all and stacked them, they would be more than three miles high. 

I say that to give the public more information about how extraordinarily extensive the documents that he stole were. And they don’t 

just pertain to the NSA; they pertain to the entire Intelligence 

Community and include information about military intelligence, 

our defense capabilities, the defense industry. 

Now, you are the leader of military intelligence. You have also 

been deployed for extensive periods in Iraq. You know what the impact is on the military. 

Could you share with the Committee your assessment of the impact that the damage that Edward Snowden has done to our military? And in particular, has he placed our men and women in uniform at greater risk? 

Lt. General FLYNN. Senator Collins, thanks for that question. 

And on the report that you’re—you’re indicating or highlighting, we 
50 

do have a—I believe a session in about a week for this Committee 

to go through the entire report. 

The—the strongest—the strongest word that I can use to describe, you know, how bad this is, this has caused grave damage 

to our national security. I think another way to address, you know, 

your question is, you know, what is—what are the costs that we 

are going to incur because of the scale and the scope of what has 

been taken by Snowden. 

And I won’t put a dollar figure, but I know that the scale or the 

cost to our nation, you know, obviously in treasure, in capabilities 

that are going to have to be examined, reexamined and potentially 

adjusted. But I think that the greatest cost that is unknown today, 

but we will likely face is the cost in human lives on tomorrow’s battlefield or in some place where we will put our military forces, you 

know, when we ask them to go into harm’s way. And I think that’s 

the greatest cost that we face with the disclosures that have been 

presented so far. 

And like I said, the strongest word that I can use is this has 

caused grave damage to our national security. 

Senator COLLINS. So it has caused grave damage to our national 

security. And you would agree that it puts at risk potentially the 

lives of our troops. Is that accurate? 

Lt. General FLYNN. Yes—yes, ma’am. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you. 

Mr. Olsen, it’s good to see you again. We’ve worked extensively 

when I was on the Homeland Security Committee. I want to turn 

to the impact of the Snowden leaks on our nation’s ability to connect the dots and to protect our citizens from terrorism attacks. 

You addressed this issue at a recent conference. Have you seen 

terrorist groups change their methods as a direct result of the disclosures of the stolen documents that Mr. Snowden has? 

Director OLSEN. Senator Collins, the answer to that is yes. As 

we’ve been discussing, the terrorist landscape has become increasingly complex. We’ve seen the geographic diffusion of groups and 

networks. And that places a premium on our ability to monitor 

communications. And what we’ve seen in the last six to eight 

months is an awareness by these groups, and they’re increasingly 

sophisticated, an awareness of our ability to monitor communications and specific instances where they’ve changed the ways in 

which they communicate, to avoid being surveilled or being subject 

to our surveillance tactics. 

Senator COLLINS. And obviously that puts us at greater risk of 

an attack. 

Director OLSEN. It certainly puts us at risk of missing something 

that we are trying to see, which could lead to putting us at risk 

of an attack, yes. 

Senator COLLINS. And just to quote you back to yourself, you 

said, ‘‘This is not an exaggeration; this is a fact.’’ And you stand 

by that. 

Director OLSEN. I absolutely do, yes. 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Senator Warner. 

Senator WARNER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 
51 

And I want to start actually picking up with what Senator Mikulski said. And I think most of us have made these comments, at 

least at the outset, even if some of our colleagues have very distinct 

policy differences, which is we need to be, I think, continue to express our support for the men and women of the Intelligence Community who do these jobs in thankless ways—and in dangerous 

ways. 

And they have been under challenge, with concerns about the 

NSA programs, the Snowden affair, the effects of sequestration. 

And they’re disproportionately, perhaps, in Virginia and Maryland, 

but they’re all across the country. 

And I know, Director Clapper, we’ve talked about ways to try to 

get them some of the recognition. They’re not often recognized in 

State of the Union addresses, but I hope that we’ll continue to find 

ways that we can, during these tight and challenging times, affirm 

the very extraordinary work that these men and women do protecting our country. 

I want to take a moment, Director Clapper, again, following up 

on what Senator Mikulski raised, I think the challenges around 

cyber terrorism and cyber threats grow dramatically. We now know 

the public report that (inaudible) put out a year ago about challenges disproportionately coming out of China and Russia. 

I believe you stated last year that you thought that the effect of cyber attacks on America were estimated to cost close to $300 billion in economic damage, that damage in terms of direct attack. 

But I also think we see time and again cases where intellectual 

property is taken and competitors are able to enter into the marketplace basically leapfrogging over the whole R&D step because 

they steal our intellectual capital. 

We now have seen, I know, a series of committees, including my 

banking subcommittee, have been looking at the—some of the data 

breaches that at we’re talking now at 70 million potential loss of 

data—personal data information just with Target alone. And (inaudible) disproportionately was ill-equipped. 

I think this is an indication, though, that, industry by industry, 

these attackers can find the weakest link. And even companies that 

are doing the right things; if their colleagues in the industry are 

not keeping up to standards, there is a challenge. 

Do you have any sense of—or would you or anybody else on the 

panel care to kind of reposit a new number or a different number 

or a higher number in terms of the economic threat, the intellectual capital threat, and obviously the personal information threat 

posed by these cyber activists? 

Director CLAPPER. Senator, I think it’s almost incalculable to tote 

up what the potential costs may be. This starts from the sheer difficulty of ascribing value to intellectual property, particularly over 

time. So, the potential dollar value is inestimable if you consider 

it in its totality. 

So no, I really can’t give you a good number, and we’d have a 

hard time coming up with one. Whatever it is, it’s big. 

Senator WARNER. Anybody else want to add a comment? 

I guess the question I would also have, kind of continuing down 

this lane, though, is that I, as someone that came from the IT and 

telecom sector, I get the concern about additional government regu-
52 

latory burdens, but—and how you set it, an appropriate standard, 

something that also is fluid as this field is. But my gosh, not having some standards, not having, again, for the good actors, some 

safe harbor, seems to me to be a real economic challenge. 

And I guess one of the questions I would have for you, in light 

of the data breaches at Target, Neiman Marcus, now we hear Michael’s and others, you know, what does it say about the ability of 

the private sector to keep its data secure? 

Director CLAPPER. Well, this is a great concern to all of us. And 

to Senator Mikulski’s point earlier when this was discussed a year 

ago or so, and there was a lot of discussion and debate in the Congress about the need for some cyber legislation. 

There has to be, in my view—and I’ll ask others to speak to 

this—a partnership between the government and the private sector, understanding the concerns about burdens being placed, regulatory burdens and all that sort of thing that could be placed on 

the private sector. 

But the government cannot do all this by itself. The private sector, particularly if you’re, you know, have a concern about the piece 

of this that I am, which are foreign nation states, principally China 

and Russia, which represent the most sophisticated cyber capabilities against us. 

And then, you know, the litany of other potential threats—be 

they nonstate actors, activists, criminal, whether foreign or domestic. 

And we need—the civilian sector is kind of our do line, if you 

will, or our first line of defense. So there—in my opinion, there 

needs to be some way where we can depend on that sector to report 

to us, to enable the government to help them. I’d ask Director 

Comey to speak to this as well. 

Director COMEY. And, Senator, that’s what I meant, to responding to Senator Mikulski about some of the work we have to do to 

protect the American people in this area, getting all tangled up in 

controversy around surveillance. 

Without the cooperation of the private sector, I think of us as— 

we’re patrolling a street with 50-foot-high walls. We can see that 

the street is safe. But we’re of no use to the folks who need help 

behind the walls in those neighborhoods. 

So we have to find a way for them to tell us what’s going on and 

us to tell them what’s going on in order to protect the American 

people. But it gets caught up in this swirl around, oh, my goodness, 

the government wants private people to cooperate. 

We really do. But we want to do it through clear, lawful guidelines and rules of the road to make those communities safer on the 

street and in the neighborhoods. 

Senator WARNER. I know my time is up, and I concur with you 

in trying to get this collaboration, and information sharing is so 

critical. And I think, again, the challenge that these retailers saw 

in terms of them, when do they cross that line to report to the public? Because I think if the public had a full understanding of how 

often and how many firms are under daily assault, it would, you 

know, maybe even make pale about some other concerns they have 

about some of the other activities going on. This is a thorny area 
53 

that’s evolving day to day. And, again, I hope the Congress comes 

back and revisits it. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thanks, Senator Warner. 

Senator Rockefeller. 

Senator ROCKEFELLER. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

I’m going to make a statement. I’m not going to ask a question. 

I’ll wait for second round. There’s something I feel so strongly 

about I have to make this statement. 

The president announced that Section 215 telephony metadata 

should no longer be stored by the government and he asks the director of national intelligence to work with the Attorney General to 

come up with alternative options. 

Ultimately the decision rests with Congress and this Senator absolutely opposes contracting out this inherently core governmental 

function. 

What seems to be lost in this conversation is that every day we 

face a growing and evolving threat from multiple enemies that 

could cost American lives. The terrorist threat remains real and ongoing. The government’s ability to quickly assess the data has protected Americans from terrorist attack. 

The hard fact is that our national security interests do not 

change just because public opinion on issues fluctuates. The collection and querying of this metadata is not a private sector responsibility. It is a fundamental core government function and should remain that way. 

I’m concerned that any change of our current framework would 

harm both our national security and privacy. 

While the President has made it clear that he understands our 

intelligence need for this data and that we should keep collecting, 

I do not believe that he came up with a better alternative. In fact, 

he just threw it to you, and ultimately, to us. 

Here is why: Practically, we do not have the technical capacity 

to do this. And certainly it’s impossible to do so without the possibility of massive mistakes or catastrophic privacy violations. 

There are hundreds and hundreds of telecommunication companies in this country. They each have their own initiatives. So you 

can’t just talk about one or two big ones. They’re all—they got 

niches. They’re all going to have to go into this protocol. 

Prospects are just daunting and, to me, ridiculous. They do not 

want to become agents of the government. They do not want to become the government’s guardians of a vast amount of intelligence 

data. They stress that. 

The telecom providers themselves do not want to do this, and for 

good reason. Telecom companies do not take an oath of allegiance 

to protect domestically and internationally. 

Small matter? No, it isn’t. It’s a big matter. They are neither 

counterterrorist agencies nor privacy protection organizations. They 

are businesses. They are interested in the bottom line. And they 

are focused on rewarding their shareholders, not protecting privacy 

or national security. 

I have served on the Commerce Committee for 30 years and I 

know the telephone companies sometimes make empty promises 

about consumer protection and transparency. 
54 

I’ve been through many iterations of this and it’s not happy. Corporations’ core profit motives can and sometimes have trumped 

their holding to their own public commitments. 

My concerns about private providers retaining this data for national security purposes are only heightened by the advent of the 

multi-billion-dollar data broker industry that mines troves of data, 

including telephone numbers, which it uses to determine our most 

personal inclinations. 

One data broker holds as much as 75,000 different data points 

about each one of us, including our health and financial status. 

This is staggering. 

Further involving the telecom providers in the extended storage 

of this data for intelligence purposes would not only make the data 

subject to discovery in civil lawsuits but it would also make it more 

vulnerable to theft by hackers or foreign intelligence organizations, 

another powerful reason to be against private companies taking responsibility for an inherently government function, core government function. 

Additionally Target’s recent loss of 110 million American consumers’ personal information hackers—to hackers does not reassure me at all that moving this sensitive data to the private sector 

for intelligence purposes would adequately protect its consumers’ 

privacy. 

Moving this data weighs in a stringent audits and oversight 

mechanism that this Committee has worked over the years to put 

in place and now has added on 20 more amendments to do more. 

It makes it less vulnerable to abuse. And I want to reiterate, the 

team—the telecom providers want no part of it. They say so; they 

never have. They didn’t under FISA, but they had to. 

Blanket liability probably did the trick but that’s a very different 

situation. This is not a foundation for a good partnership. 

In fact, for context, under the existing system there are only 22 

supervisors in the intelligence directorate, highly trained and 

skilled, and 33 intelligence analysts who work specifically in the intelligence directorate. 

These are professionals. They’ve spent their careers preparing to 

do this job and to do it well. They work in an extremely controlled 

environment with anonymized data. Their queries are subject to 

multiple overlapping checks, audits and inspections, and keeping in 

mind that these queries involve only anonymous numbers, no 

name, no content, no location, unlike many private companies, noone is listening to your private conversations or reading your email. 

The data is highly secure. It’s secure. And the queries of the data 

are conducted only by highly trained professionals, which the 

telecom companies do not have and could not be trained to have 

for a very long period of time, plus they don’t want any part of it. 

Last year this Committee worked to significantly strengthen 215 

oversight with the adoptions of 20 major reforms, making the 

telecom providers keep the metadata for intelligence purposes 

where it will be needed to be searched, or introduced a whole new 

range of privacy and security concerns. 
55 

I think going down this path will threaten, not strengthen, our 

ability to protect this country and the American people from a terrorist attack and massive invasions of their privacy. 

OK. I used my time. But I can’t tell you how strongly I feel about 

this. 

The President left us in a very interesting position. He said, I 

want to keep collecting. I want to keep collecting. But I don’t want 

the—I don’t want the government to maintain—NSA to maintain 

the metadata. 

And then he started talking about another entity, private entity. 

I think we all agree long hence that that’s an impossibility, not yet 

created, no experience, does not exist. 

So what does that leave? That leaves the telecommunications 

companies and they don’t want it. And they shouldn’t have it, in 

the interest of national security. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much for that, Senator 

Rockefeller. 

I would like to point out, so the public knows, Senator Rockefeller is chairman of the Commerce Committee and, in my view, he 

knows what he’s talking about. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Senator Burr. 

Senator BURR. Thank you, Chairman. 

Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you for what you do day-in and dayout. And thank your colleagues for us. As the vice chairman said, 

he and I had the opportunity to be in Afghanistan for part of last 

week and we met with many people who work for you and are 

doing a great job in a very challenging and difficult area of the 

world, and we’re grateful for that. 

Director Clapper, over the last several years, the committee’s had 

some difficulty receiving timely briefings after significant events or 

terrorist attacks, despite the commitment we had from you that 

those briefings would happen within 24 hours. 

Moving forward, will you renew your commitment to the Committee to brief us on those events in a timely fashion? 

Director CLAPPER. Yes, sir. We always strive to do that. 

Senator BURR. Director Olsen, without getting into sensitive 

sources and methods, how would you characterize the intelligence 

community’s ability to provide tactical warnings of terrorist attacks 

that are on U.S. interests? 

Director OLSEN. It’s a complicated question. I mean, obviously it’s 

a focus of ours to be able to provide that level of tactical warning. 

As we’ve discussed, the nature of the threat has become significantly more geographically spread out. And that challenges the 

Community in collecting the kinds of information that would provide that type of tactical warning. 

And we’ve seen the types of smaller-scale attacks, particularly on 

soft targets. I think, for example, of the attack at the Westgate 

Mall in Nairobi. That type of attack, using small arms, a small 

number of individuals, puts a great deal of pressure on us in order 

to provide the type of tactical warning that would save lives under 

those circumstances. 

So it’s a focus of ours. We have increased our cooperation and 

interaction in particular with the State Department and diplomatic 
56 

security as a community. We come together as a community to do 

that. But as I’ve said, it’s difficult to provide the level of tactical 

warning that would provide, you know, the advance warning necessary to preserve lives under those circumstances. 

Senator BURR. Thank you. 

Director Brennan, without getting into sensitive sources and 

methods, how would you assess the counterintelligence capabilities 

of al-Qaeda and its affiliates? 

Director BRENNAN. Increasingly good. And unfortunately, I think 

they just have to pick up the papers sometimes or do some Google 

searches for what has been disclosed and leaked. And they really 

go to school on that. And they adapt their practices accordingly. 

And they take steps to protect their ability to communicate, to 

move and to operate. 

And so, we are giving them, I think, the substance for their counterintelligence programs. 

Senator BURR. Thank you. 

Director Comey, can you assure this Committee, the Congress 

and the American people that the FBI has and will continue to 

pursue the individuals who killed four Americans in Benghazi? 

Director COMEY. Absolutely, Senator, you have that commitment. 

It remains one of our very top priorities. I have a lot of people 

working very hard on it right now. 

Senator BURR. We realize that the ability to share actions that 

the bureau might have taken in this case are limited. But I think 

I speak for the entire Committee that anytime we can be briefed 

on progress, I hope you will do so. 

Director COMEY. Yes, sir. 

Senator BURR. General Flynn, when I saw one of my colleagues 

ask about cybersecurity, it seemed like you had something you 

wanted to contribute to that. Let me give you this opportunity, because I think you’re in a unique position to comment on it. 

Lt. General FLYNN. Well, I would just offer on cybersecurity, one 

of the other aspects, you know, Director Clapper mentioned state 

actors. I think that what is a serious threat that we are paying 

very close attention to are these non-nation-state groups and actors, al-Qaeda being among them, as one organization among many 

others, are what I would just describe as in the transnational organized criminal elements that are also operating in the cyber domain. And they have no rules that they have to adhere to. And 

they are increasingly adapting to an environment that is actually 

benefiting them. 

And so I think that we—while we definitely need to pay attention to those nation-states that have, you know, that in some cases 

have parity with us, we also have to pay very close attention to the 

non-nation-state actors that are out there that are doing things like 

we see—that have already been described here today. And that, to 

me, is an increasingly growing threat. 

Senator BURR. Great. I thank, once again, all of you for your willingness to be here. 

I thank the chairman, and yield the time. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you, Senator Burr. 

Senator King. 

Senator KING. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 
57 

Director Clapper, do you have an intelligence assessment of the 

impact of the interim agreement on Iran’s nuclear program? Does 

it slow it down, pause it? The requirements, as you know, about 

dilution and limitations of centrifuges and those kinds of things, is 

this going to have a real impact on the progress of nuclear capability in Iran? 

Director CLAPPER. Yes, it will, Senator King. Clearly, it gets at 

the key thing we’re interested in and most concerned about is the 

more highly enriched uranium—the 20 percent enriched uranium. 

So, yes, it does. 

Senator KING. Second question. You told us back on the 20th, 

quote, ‘‘We judge that the new—that new sanctions would undermine the prospects of a successful comprehensive nuclear agreement with Iran.’’ Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif in early December 

said that the entire deal would be, quote, ‘‘dead’’ if the international community imposed new sanctions. 

Is that still your view? 

Director CLAPPER. Yes, sir. It would be good to have them in reserve if we need them, but I think right now the imposition of more 

sanctions would be counterproductive. 

Senator KING. How do you mean ‘‘in reserve’’? If the Congress 

passed them, would you consider— 

Director CLAPPER. Well, obviously, the Iranians understand our 

system. And the point there is that if the—if we had additional 

sanctions right now, I think this would, you know, the Iranians 

would live up to their word and it would jeopardize the agreement. 

But they understand that this is a subject of great interest in the 

U.S. Congress. And to me, just that fact alone is a great incentive 

to ensure compliance with the bargain. 

Senator KING [continuing]. So what you’re suggesting is we don’t 

need new sanctions. Even those that have a delayed trigger, it’s the 

knowledge that Congress can impose them that provides the impetus. 

Director CLAPPER. That would be my view, yes, sir. 

Senator KING. Thank you. 

Another question for you, Director Clapper. There have been suggestions from outside groups, and we hear it all the time, that section 215 really doesn’t produce anything useful. And we’ve had testimony about plots thwarted. In order for us to assess this difficult 

issue, which as Senator Rockefeller pointed out, the President sort 

of tossed back in our laps. 

On the one hand, we want to weigh national security concerns 

and the importance and significance of the program, against privacy rights and the concerns of the public about having large 

amounts of telephony—telephonic data in the government’s hands. 

Is the program effective? Does it make a difference? Is it an important tool? Or is it just something that’s nice to have? 

Director CLAPPER. I think it’s an important tool. And I also 

think, and I said this before, that simply using the metric of plots 

foiled is not necessarily a way to get at the value of the program. 

What it does is allows us to eliminate the possibility of a terrorist 

nexus in a domestic context. 

So, for example, last summer when I think 20 or so diplomatic 

facilities in the Mideast were closed because of various threat con-
58 

ditions, and in the course of that we came across nine selectors 

that pointed—indicated—pointed to the United States. So the use 

of this tool, of the 215 tool, enabled us to quickly eliminate the possibility of a domestic nexus. So, to me, that’s another important 

way of considering the value of the 215 program. 

Senator KING. Director Comey, do you have views on the significance of 215? You understand that this is not easy for this Committee. The public is very skeptical. And in order for us to continue 

to maintain it, we have to be convinced that it is in fact effective 

and not just something that the Intelligence Community thinks is 

nice to have in their toolkit. 

Director COMEY. Yes, I totally understand people’s concerns and 

questions about them. They’re reasonable questions. I believe it’s a 

useful tool. For the FBI, its primary value is agility. That is, it allows us to do in minutes what would otherwise take us hours. And 

I’ll explain what I mean by that. 

If a terrorist is identified in the United States or something 

blows up in the United States, we want to understand, OK, is there 

a network that we’re facing here? And we take any telephone numbers connected to that terrorist, that attack. 

And what I would do in the absence of 215, is use the legal process that we use every day, either grand jury subpoenas or national 

security letters. And by subpoenaing each of the telephone companies I would assemble a picture of whether there’s a network connected to that terrorist. 

That would take hours. What this tool allows us to do is do that 

in minutes. Now, in most circumstances the difference between 

hours and minutes isn’t gonna be material, except when it matters 

most. 

And so, it’s a useful tool to me because of the agility it offers. 

And so, I think it’s a healthy discussion to discuss, so what might 

replace it and how would we change it? 

I would just want folks to understand what the trade-offs would 

be in any diminution in that agility. But that’s where it matters 

most to the FBI. 

Senator KING. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you. That’s very helpful to the dialogue. Thank you very much, Senator King. 

Senator Risch. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Director Clapper, I want to compliment you for how you put together your statement here in putting cybersecurity at the top. 

This is the one open hearing we have every year. And those of us 

sitting in this panel spend most of a couple afternoons a week 

going through this stuff. 

I think the American public really does not have an understanding of how important this threat is. I notice you put it ahead 

of terrorism. You put it ahead of weapons of mass destruction. You 

put it ahead of proliferation. And I think you wisely did that. 

You said that the industrial control systems and supervisory control and data acquisition systems used in water management, oil 

and gas pipelines, electrical power distribution and mass transit 

provides an enticing target to malicious actors. 
59 

And I couldn’t agree with you more, except I think that that is 

a real understatement of what the situation is out there. Certainly 

they are attractive targets. 

But, more importantly than that, we’ve got chinks in our armor, 

as you know. And although we do our best with firewalls and what 

have you, this is something we’ve got to get more diligent at. 

I bring this up because in my state, in Idaho Falls, Idaho, at the 

Idaho National Laboratory, there’s nobody doing more on supervisory control and data acquisition matters. And we also have the 

isolatable transmission and distribution system we call the loop, 

and a very important wireless test bed, national user facility at the 

Idaho National Laboratory. 

The problem I have is this. I’ve spent a lot of time there. I’ve 

spent a lot of time with the people there. And they are grossly underfunded in what they’re doing. 

Now, that’s true in all areas of government spending, and we’re 

all under tremendous pressure. I know that. Everybody in this 

room knows that. And there’s no bigger advocate for cutting than 

I am. 

But, inasmuch as you have put this at the top of your priorities, 

what I would urge you to do is review our priorities of spending 

and look at these particular operations at the Idaho National Laboratory. They’re doing a lot of good work in this. And this is an 

area that we truly do need to be more vigilant on. 

And it’s unfortunate that Americans can’t hear the kinds of 

things that we hear that are really quite frightening as far as what 

the possibilities are if we are subject to a cyber attack in this and 

many other areas. 

So I’d urge you to consider that, Director Clapper, and appreciate 

your bringing this to the forefront and to the focus. 

Director CLAPPER. Senator, thanks very much for that. It gives 

me a chance to say something about the entirety of the DOE lab 

complex, which is a phenomenal contributor to U.S. national intelligence. 

It has unique expertise, unique technical competence that is unmatched anywhere else in the Intelligence Community. That’s 

something I’ve been working with the DOE headquarters to try to 

rationalize the way in which we convey funding from the national 

intelligence program to all the labs. So, I’m very sensitive to that, 

and I appreciate you bringing it up. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you, Director Clapper. We appreciate that 

also. And I think the American people will appreciate that, even 

though they don’t, and really can’t know the details of it. 

Director Brennan and Director Flynn, these next remarks are directed to you. I have a constituent, Sergeant Beau Bergdahl, who’s 

being held captive. And I want to publicly thank you for the exchanges, the information and the frequent interchange between 

both myself and your office and my staff and your office staff. 

It’s impossible to sit here and convey to you what this family is 

going through. We all say we can’t understand, and we really can’t. 

And, obviously, without getting into the classified material or 

saying something unintentionally that would impact his safety, I 

think we’d go a long ways to helping his family have some peace 

if you would reiterate publicly, as you have to me privately, about 
60 

what a high area of concern this is for the United States government to return Sergeant Beau Bergdahl to us personally. 

Lt. General FLYNN. Yes. And Senator, thanks. Thanks for reminding the American public about Beau and his plight right now. 

I would tell you that every soldier that we have on the battlefield 

that is in a situation like that is—becomes our number one priority. There are, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there are dedicated resources to doing everything we can to bring him home safe 

and sound. 

And I would just say to the family, I can’t imagine what they go 

through, but they have our absolute commitment from the—all the 

leadership, and I know I can speak for this table here from the Intelligence Community, but definitely all the leadership inside of the 

Department of Defense to bring him home safe and sound. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you, Director. 

Director Brennan. 

Director BRENNAN. Senator, I’d just say that when I was at the 

White House, I had the honor and privilege to meet with Sergeant 

Bergdahl’s mother and father. It was a very moving experience. 

And I told them then that we would do everything possible to 

bring their son home safely. He is somebody who was on the front 

lines, keeping this country safe. And I know that we are doing that 

on a regular basis. And so we—our thoughts and prayers are with 

the family as well as with Sergeant Bergdahl. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your 

efforts in that regard. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thanks, Senator Risch. 

Senator Rubio. 

Senator RUBIO. Thank you. 

Thank you all for being here today. 

I wanted to touch on something that was actually touched upon 

last night in the State of the Union and may have been addressed 

earlier before I came. 

And it’s this; on the one hand we keep hearing how the core of 

al-Qaeda has been significantly degraded, particularly in its presence in the FATA, et cetera, and in Afghanistan before that. 

But on the other hand, we see that their power is now growing 

in a diffuse way. We see it in North Africa, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq. 

And, of course, there’s still a presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There’s the concern about fighters from Syria returning to 

Europe and other countries. 

Isn’t this diffusion of their presence and power, isn’t this an even 

bigger and more complex challenge than when they were, than 

when their core was centralized in one place? 

Director CLAPPER. Senator, let me start. Senator Rubio, actually, 

it is, because of the dispersal and the growth of the so-called franchises into many other areas of the world; much more globally dispersed. 

That, plus the fact that, as we’ve also discussed here today, 

they’ve gone to school us on how we try to track them. So the combination of those factors, the geographic dispersal and the increasing challenges in collecting against them, makes al-Qaeda, in all of 

its forms, a very—in total, a very formidable threat. 

Matt. 
61 

Director OLSEN. Senator, yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Director Clapper. 

I think it is important to think about the threat in a number of 

different ways. So there is a group core al-Qaeda. And, as the 

President said last night, that group is on the path to defeat. That 

is the group that brought forward 9/11, led by Zawahiri. 

Operationally, that group is not what it was 10 years ago. It is 

the ideological leader of a movement that has spread. And that 

movement has spread both in terms of the geographic presence in 

a number of different countries across the Middle East and North 

Africa. 

It’s spread in terms of the diversity of actors. A number of those 

actors have a largely local or regional agenda. In other words, they 

don’t necessarily pose a threat to us here at home, at least not now. 

And it’s also changed in the way Director Clapper has said, in 

that they’ve innovated and they’ve—sought out ways to carry out 

attacks that are not as complicated, that—and they’ve promoted 

the idea of lone attacks or smaller-scale attacks that would be 

harder for us to detect. 

So, in all of those ways, it’s a more complicated and more challenging threat. 

Senator RUBIO. Thank you. 

The second issue I wanted to focus on that really bothers me 

sometimes is these romanticized notions about who Edward 

Snowden is and what he’s done to this country. 

You know, all the reporting’s been centered on things we’ve read 

in the papers about the 215 programs, but his revelations go far 

beyond that. 

Is it safe to say that he has not just compromised operations, but 

there are Americans and allies who are at risk because of the actions of this individual? 

Director CLAPPER. Absolutely, sir. That’s—yes. 

Senator RUBIO. And, is it also safe to say that General Flynn, I 

would ask you this. Are there men and women in uniform who are 

potentially in harm’s way because of what this individual has 

done? 

Lt. General FLYNN. Senator, I believe there are. 

Senator RUBIO. All right. 

Is it safe to say that the revelations that he has made, what this 

individual has done is perhaps the gravest violation and most significant, most harmful revelation of American intelligence secrets 

in our history? 

Lt. General FLYNN. Yes, sir. As I stated at the outset, that’s how 

I would characterize it. 

Senator RUBIO. I wanted to ask you quickly about Asia. 

I just returned from a trip to Japan. I know that they’ve recently 

made changes to their intelligence—the laws governing their intelligence programs. 

Could you comment, whoever would be appropriate, briefly on 

how that’s increased our ability to partner with them, and how you 

see the opportunities to more fully engage with the Japanese in intelligence sharing, given their increased capacity and the protections now afforded? 
62 

Director CLAPPER. Yes, sir. I was aware of your visit and appreciate your engagement with some of our intel people. 

Senator RUBIO. Are you following me? No, I’m kidding. 

Director CLAPPER. The Japanese are emerging as great partners. 

They—and the passage of this Secrets Protection Laws, as it’s 

called, are going to do just as you inferred, enable us (sic) to do 

more sharing with us. 

We are in—have agreed on a recent—recently on an intelligence 

sharing arrangement where they will be sharing with us. I would 

be happy to go into more detail about this. But really emerging as 

great intelligence partners and this extends to the prime minister. 

Senator RUBIO. Thank you. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Senator Rubio. 

That completes the round. It’s my understanding that Members 

do not request a second round with one exception, and that is Senator Wyden, who would like to ask a ten-second question. 

Questions will be sent to the panel and hopefully, you will respond to them rather promptly. 

Your ten seconds are upon you. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a request for 

the record. General Clapper, and it’s apropos good point that Senator King meant. He asked you and General Comey whether bulk 

collection of all these phone records on law-abiding Americans were 

necessary to prevent terror, and you all said it was because of timeliness. 

As you know, the Independent Review Commission at page 104 

of their report said that was not the case. They could get the data 

in a timely way without collecting all of these millions of phone 

records on law-abiding Americans. 

So if you all would, for the record—and I’ve asked this as well 

before, give us an example of a time you need a record that was 

so old that the relevant phone company no longer had it. 

And I’m going to say, Mr. Director, I think that’s possible, within 

30 days, to have an answer to that. Since I’ve asked it repeatedly 

if there’s some reason you can’t do it, let me know. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairman FEINSTEIN. Thank you. 

And you had a long ten seconds. Be grateful. 

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. And, gentlemen, thank you 

very much and the people that you represent. This Committee appreciates their service and your service. 

So the hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the Committee adjourned.] 
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