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ISIL IN AMERICA: 

DOMESTIC TERROR AND RADICALIZATION 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

HOMELAND SECURITY, AND INVESTIGATIONS 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

FEBRUARY 26, 2015 

Serial No. 114–6 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

RAU ́ L LABRADOR, Idaho 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

DOUG COLLINS, Georgia 

RON DeSANTIS, Florida 

MIMI WALTERS, California 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas 

DAVE TROTT, Michigan 

MIKE BISHOP, Michigan 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., 

Georgia 

PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

JUDY CHU, California 

TED DEUTCH, Florida 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

KAREN BASS, California 

CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana 

SUZAN DelBENE, Washington 

HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York 

DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

SCOTT PETERS, California 

SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff & General Counsel 

PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, HOMELAND SECURITY, AND INVESTIGATIONS

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., Wisconsin, Chairman 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas, Vice-Chairman 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

RAU ́ L LABRADOR, Idaho 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MIKE BISHOP, Michigan 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

JUDY CHU, California 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

KAREN BASS, California 

CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana 

CAROLINE LYNCH, Chief Counsel 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

FEBRUARY 26, 2015 

Page 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

The Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in Congress 

from the State of Wisconsin, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations ................................................ 1 

The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, 

Homeland Security, and Investigations ............................................................. 2 

The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary ................................. 16 

The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary ......... 17 

WITNESSES 

Michael Steinbach, Assistant Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 26 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 29 

Richard W. Stanek, Sheriff, Hennepin County, Minneapolis, MN 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 33 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 36 

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

H.R. 48, the ‘‘No Fly for Foreign Fighters Act’’ ..................................................... 5 

Material submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee 

on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations ......................... 9 

Prepared Statement of Rodney Monroe, Chief of Police, Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department ....................................................................................... 20 

(1) 

ISIL IN AMERICA: 

DOMESTIC TERROR AND RADICALIZATION 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2015 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, HOMELAND SECURITY, AND INVESTIGATIONS

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:19 a.m., in room 

2141, Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Sensenbrenner, Goodlatte, Jackson Lee, 

Conyers, Gohmert, Chabot, Poe, Chu, Bass, Labrador, Richmond, 

Buck, and Bishop. 

Staff Present: (Majority) Allison Halataei, Parliamentarian & 

General Counsel; Caroline Lynch, Subcommittee Chief Counsel; 

Jason Herring, Counsel; Alicia Church, Clerk; (Minority) Aaron 

Hiller, Counsel; and Veronica Eligan, Professional Staff Member. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The Subcommittee will come to order. 

Without objection, the Chair will be authorized to declare recesses 

during votes in the House. I will yield myself 5 minutes for an 

opening statement. 

Today’s hearing will examine the Islamic State of Iraq and the 

Levant, or ISIL, and the domestic terrorism threats posed by these 

terrorists. And while ISIL seems to have reared its head only in 

the last 18 months, a closer look quickly reveals ISIL to be an old 

foe; one with whom the United States has done battle for more 

than a decade. Before the group declared itself a global caliphate 

and adopted its current name, it was merely the Islamic State of 

Iraq. During war, members of this same group were among the 

most prolific perpetrators of attacks upon American troops and our 

partners in Iraq. 

The procession of name changes; however, has made no difference at ISIL’s commitment to harm Americans. Earlier this 

month, we were all reminded of this when we learned of Kayla 

Mueller’s death after 18 months of ISIL captivity. The 26-year-old 

from Prescott, Arizona traveled to Syria with Doctors Without Borders to help alleviate the suffering brought there by Islamic extremism. Distance does not make us in the United States immune 

from ISIL’s destructive ideology. From far beyond the battlefields 

of Syria and Iraq comes funding and support for this group’s call 
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to arms against the West, and the domestic threat is not limited 

to New York City and our Nation’s capital. 

Two weeks ago in St. Louis, five Bosnians were charged with 

providing material support to ISIL. The suspects allegedly provided 

weapons, military uniforms, and equipment and money to a sixth 

Bosnian who left the United States in 2013 to join ISIL and Syria. 

Alarmingly, all six individuals are natives of Bosnia who immigrated to the United States. Three are now naturalized citizens 

and the remaining three have either refugee or legal residence status. But the threats posed by ISIL’s hateful ideology are not purely 

external. Inciting Americans to join their ranks or to ally their 

selves with ISIL’s mission is a pivotal component in their campaign 

of violence against America and its people. 

Last month, a Cincinnati man named Christopher Lee Cornell 

was arrested at a gun shop purchasing multiple weapons. He is alleged to have been collecting for an attack here in Washington, 

D.C. Mr. Cornell became an adherent of radical Islam on the Internet having adopted the Jihadi world of view. He aimed to gun 

down Members of Congress and government employees for the 

glory of ISIL, a terrorist group on the other side of the world with 

whom he had no connection except devotion to this same perverted 

Islamist ideology. 

As FBI Director Comey has pointed out, these are not isolated 

incidents. ISIL’s connections are being investigated in virtually 

every part of the United States, but on the heels of the St. Louis 

and Cincinnati arrests, in just days after ISIL released a video depicting the beheading of 21 Egyptian Christians in Libya, President 

Obama convened a summit on countering violent extremism. A 

summit that failed to include the FBI Director James Comey and 

refused to acknowledge that ISIL and other terrorist organizations 

are motivated by radical Islam. 

As one commentator noted, the summit was strangely sympathetic to Islamic sensibilities in grievances at the very time when 

rampaging Jihadists, while quoting Islamic scripture, are 

barbarically slaughtering their enemies and conducting a pogrom 

against Christians. 

The President’s unwillingness to acknowledge the true motives of 

these terrorists, not only embolden stir campaigns of terror, it 

makes Americans less safe. Meanwhile, ISIL continues its march 

across western Iraq and continues to spew its propaganda of hatred 

and murder across the globe. Yesterday, three New York City residents, two from Uzbekistan and one from Kazakhstan, were arrested for plotting to travel to Syria to join ISIL and ‘‘wage jihad.’’ 

According to the criminal complaint, one of these men stated he 

would kill President Obama if he had the opportunity to do so. 

The witnesses today will hopefully shed light on the escalating 

domestic terror threat posed by ISIL and those who would ally 

themselves with Islamic extremism. 

It is now my pleasure to recognize for her opening statement, 

Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, the gentle woman from 

Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Good morning. 

Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing. We are finding so much common ground as we try 
3 

to include issues of criminal justice reform, but also securing the 

domestic tranquility of this Nation. 

This hearing is involving ISIL in America, domestic terror, and 

radicalization. And so, it is important to note that this Islamic 

State is a brutal terrorist organization, it has murdered thousands 

of civilians including four United States citizens, it threatens to 

topple regional movements, it has, as its stated goal, the religious 

and ethnic cleansing of the areas under its control. But I think it 

is important to note, as has been said by our Commander and 

Chief, United States is not at war with Islam but it is the contorted, disjointed and ludicrous interpretation of those who simply 

want to be violent and vile and kill people. 

And even if it cannot strike the United States homeland directly 

as it has been alleged, ISIL clearly hopes to inspire Americans to 

act against us from within. As evidence, the Chairman has already 

noted, there are three would be ISIL actors caught and apprehended by the FBI, in which I thank you so very much, two at 

John F. Kennedy airport where millions travel every day, as do 

millions every day in the United States; grandmothers going to see 

grandchildren, College students going home, business persons seeking to participate in the capitalistic system of this Nation, or people 

simply going to vacation maybe even in the Nation’s capitol, the 

cradle of democracy for this Nation. 

So while I am grateful that the United States is leading a multinational coalition to degrade and ultimately destroy Islamic State, 

I am certain that we cannot bomb our way out of this problem. In 

my view, the domestic threat posed by ISIL and other terrorist organization must be met on three fronts. 

First, we must engage in real outreach to the communities most 

at risk for radicalization. By outreach, I do not mean the past practices of certain police departments that deployed undercover agents 

into mosques and community centers. Maybe the only approach, we 

know that is the approach that is used when you are investigating. 

Nor do I mean that the heavy-handed use of informants within certain immigrant communities. These tactics have been misdirected 

and costly. 

Countering violent extremism should not ever be the pretext to 

profiling a United States person on the base of race, religion, or 

culture. However, we know that intelligence gathering is important. And so, I certainly believe that that is a strong element of 

making sure that those who want to do us harm do not do so. 

But last week, I had the privilege of attending the White House 

Summit on Countering Violent Extremism. At that event, President Obama observed terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and ISIL deliberately target their propaganda in the hopes of reaching and brainwashing young Muslims, especially those who may be disillusioned 

or wrestling with their identity. The president is right: ISIL has 

proven adept at using social media to spread its message. The 

United States in near time calculates that the group posts 90,000 

tweets and social media responses every day. 

How do we combat this propaganda? By empowering local communities, teachers, faith communities, and police officers alike to 

talk openly and honestly about what ISIL is, what it threatens to 

do, and how it twists the basic threats of Islam to service its own 
4 

purposes. I am particularly interested in how we can engage with 

segments of these communities that often go overlooked. For example, women and young people who are not always invited to participate in the dialogue that have the power to spread a positive message where police officers and government spokespersons cannot. 

Secondly, must maintain vigilance at our borders. To date, to our 

knowledge about 150 United States persons have traveled to Syria 

or Iraq to fight along side ISIL, the new surf front and the like. 

There are known instances of a U.S. persons attempting to return 

from the region after participating in that conflict. 

The more immediate threat, of course, is the thousands of individuals from our allied Nations in Europe, Northern Africa, and 

Middle East who have traveled to Syria undetected, gained terrorist training or military experience, that may now seek to travel. 

This is not an idle concern. The national contraries and system estimates that 20,000 individuals from 90 countries have traveled to 

fight in Syria. 

Mr. Chairman, I have introduced H.R. 48, the ‘‘No Fly for Foreign Fighters Act’’ which I ask unanimous consent to enter into the 

record? 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Without objection. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Ms. JACKSON LEE. Which would require the government to review both terrorist screening database and the terrorist watch list 

for a complete list with respect to any of these foreign fighters and 

to report back to Congress with the results within 90 days. 

Finally, we must fully fund, Mr. Chairman, the Department of 

Homeland Security without delay. The Islamic State is our focus 

today but is only one threat in an increasing complex landscape. 

I would hope that we would again, as I know that the Chairman 

and myself have worked together with Members of the Judiciary 

Committee, that we enter into an effort to protect national security 

over political security. And I say that to reinforce the final words 

I want to offer of the Honorable Susan E. Spaulding who is the 

Under Secretary of National Protection and Programs Director of 

the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Just her words in 

terms of the whole combination of threat and cybersecurity threats. 

‘‘As a nation, we are faced with pervasive cyber threats. Malicious 

actors, including those at nation-state level, are motivated by a variety of reasons that include espionage, political and ideological beliefs, and financial gain. Increasingly, state, local, tribal, and territorial networks are experiencing cyber activity of a sophistication 

level similar to that seen on Federal networks and has probably 

not been seen before.’’ 

This hearing is a vital hearing because it squarely places us in 

the role of fighting terrorism. And I thank the Chairman very 

much and I thank the witnesses for their presence here today. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Does the gentlewoman wish to include the 

statement that she just referred to in the record? 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I will ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Without objection. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The Chair recognizes the Chair of the full 

Committee, gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Goodlatte. 

Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner. 

With increasing regularity, Americans are being witnessed to the 

depravity of terrorists claiming the mantle of the Islamic State of 

Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. Relatively unknown to many in 

America just a few years ago, ISIL relishes in their own barbarity 

with videos depicting shootings, beheadings, and the burning alive 

of unarmed prisoners. 

Recently, ISIL claimed to mark the occasion of conquering a 

small town in western Iraq by burning 45 of its inhabitants at the 

stake. The group’s history gives us little reason to dismiss this as 

hyperbole. And ISIL’s savagery is limited no more by geography 

than by human decency. Earlier this month in Libya, hundreds of 

miles from the group’s claimed territory, ISIL terrorists rounded up 

and videotaped themselves decapitating 21 Egyptian Christians 

who refused to renounce Christ and accept ISIL as their new masters. 

Americans are not mere observers of ISIL’s atrocities. Our people 

and our homeland are intimate parts of ISIL’s plans. The organization’s leadership had attacks on America and the rest of the West. 

They have solicited young people to renounce their lives and join 

them in their perverted war. Unfortunately, even deep in the 

American heartland, these calls have found some receptive ears. 

Speaking in Jackson, Mississippi earlier this month, FBI Director James Comey emphasized that city is not beyond ISIL’s reach. 

He urged law enforcement and American citizens everywhere to be 

vigilant and not dismiss the domestic threat from extremism. Just 

yesterday, Director Comey disclosed that the Bureau is investigating suspected supporters of ISIL in every U.S. state. 

Director Comey’s concerns are borne out by the facts. The last 

several years have seen three distinct threats to the homeland from 

Levantine terrorism. The first is the recruitment of young Americans into the ISIL fold. In addition to thousands of Europeans, over 

150 Americans have been discovered joining in the fighting in the 

Middle East or attempting to do so. 

Those who have taken up the ISIL banner fit no social, ethnic, 

or even gender profile. Douglas McAuthur McCain grew up in Chicago and Minneapolis with a close-knit family. He was a popular 

joker in high school and a devoted fan of the Chicago Bulls. Last 

summer, a tattoo of his was used to confirm him as the first American to be killed fighting for the terrorists in Syria. 

Young women are also being recruited, lured to leave their families and become Jihad wives of ISIL fighters. Shannon Conley, a 

teenager from Arvada, Colorado was arrested at Denver International Airport last April in route to her arranged marriage with 

a 32-year old Tunisian Jihadi. She had changed her Facebook status to ‘‘Slave of Allah’’ and told FBI agents she looked forward to 

using the skills she learned in the U.S. Army Explorers program 

to nurse wounded ISIL fighters. 

If and when these Americans choose to return to the United 

States from the battlefields of a brutal civil war, it will be difficult 

to stop them reentering. It will be even more difficult to know what 
17 

they are capable of. We know, for example, that last month’s Charlie Hebdo shooters had traveled to the Middle East and received 

training from Jihadi groups. 

The second threat, perhaps even more dangerous, requires no 

travel beyond the nearest computer. The Western World has been 

plagued by a rash of attacks by self-radicalized lone-wolf terrorists 

who have claimed allegiance to ISIL. Last year, Canada suffered 

two serious terrorist attacks by ISIL adherents who had never gotten closer to the group than their Internet message boards. One 

man drove his car into a group of Canadian Forces soldiers; the 

other murdered a soldier before attempting to storm the Canadian 

Parliament. 

In Australia, a man took 18 people hostage at a chocolate shop, 

killing two of them. In Belgium, a man shot dead four people at 

a Jewish Museum. All of these terrorist committed their attacks 

under the banner of ISIL. 

Finally, we must not forget that the core group of ISIL, half a 

world away, plots to attack us directly here in the homeland. This 

last month, ISIL’s central command reiterated their intention to attack American policemen, soldiers, and members of our intelligence 

community. 

I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about these 

threats, how they are evolving domestically, and the challenges our 

intelligence and law enforcement officials face in thwarting these 

violent terrorist and those who pledge allegiance to them here in 

our homeland. I also hope to hear how Congress and this Committee can best ensure that our country is prepared to stop these 

threats. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Time of the gentleman has expired. 

The Chair now recognizes for his opening statement, the Ranking 

Member and Chairman emeritus of the full Committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner. And to all 

of my colleagues here, particularly those who have made opening 

statements. 

I am deeply concerned about the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq 

and the Levant, ISIL. It is a grave regional threat operating from 

Anbar province and Western Iraq, it seized territory from Baghdad 

to Aleppo, and continues to press north into Kurdish territory. In 

more familiar terms, ISIL now controls an area larger than the 

United Kingdom. 

Along the way, it has directed horrific violence at thousands of 

civilians, particularly ethnic and religious minorities, and ISIL has 

also executed hostages including four United States citizens in barbaric and public fashion. So we should not underestimate ISIL’s 

murderous intent nor its ability to inspire others to do us harm. 

But we’ve learned much from the past decade of fighting radical extremists and it seems important today to apply some of those lessons in our discussion. 

The first and most simple lesson is don’t panic. As of this morning, the Department of Homeland Security is unaware of any specific credible threat to the United States homeland from ISIL. The 

National Counterterrorism Center confirms that assessment noting 
18 

further that any threat to the U.S. homeland from these types of 

extremists is likely to be limited in scope and in scale. I do not suggest that we in any way ignore ISIL or the suffering it has caused. 

No way. But I do point out only that the group’s ability to strike 

directly at the United States appears to be limited and that our reaction to the home front should be measured and appropriate. 

The rise of the Islamic State is not an excuse for domestic law 

enforcement to stigmatize American Muslims. It does not 

legitimatize tactics that have isolated and alienated the communities whose help we need most. Nor does the threat of ISIL justify 

the government’s continued use of Section 215 of the U.S.A. Patriot 

Act to conduct mass surveillance on law-abiding citizens. The mass 

telephone metadata program has never disrupted a terrorist plot, 

does not extend to the new media formats favored by ISIL, and 

must be brought to an end without delay. 

We have better tools at our disposal which leads me to this consideration: Our best hope for countering the threat of radicalization 

at home is community engagement at the local level. We haven’t 

evidence of a direct threat from ISIL on the U.S. homeland but as 

my colleagues have noted the group has an aggressive social medial 

presence. Their propaganda targets the most isolated elements of 

our society. We know what works to counter this messaging. Local, 

state, and Federal law enforcement must build partnerships with 

teachers, clergy, and other community leaders. These efforts must 

clearly preserve religious exercise and freedom of expression. 

Once we have established trust and open lines of communication 

between police and the communities most at risk for radicalization, 

we win on two fronts. We are better able to identify potential 

threats before they go dangerous and community leaders have enlisted a powerful partner in countering the twisted rhetoric of ISIL 

and others like it. 

I believe the witnesses here today will testify to the effectiveness 

of this basic approach and I look forward to further discussion with 

them on the matter. And perhaps most pressing at this late hour, 

we must fully fund the Department of Homeland Security. 

Mr. Chairman, I believe it comes down to a question of priorities. 

We must preserve the capability to track foreign fighters before 

they attempt to enter the United States. We must keep the United 

States Air Marshalls in the sky and we must continue to coordinate 

with our agents on the front lines of homeland security, the transportation Safety Administration, the United States Customs and 

Border Patrol and our own partners in state, local and tribal law 

enforcement. 

Some of these functions may continue in the event of a shutdown 

but many will not. Most of the department’s leadership team will 

be furloughed. Federal support to state and local initiatives will 

terminate, none of the officers who must show up to work will necessarily be paid. And so, my colleagues, there was a time when I 

believed that we could find common ground on a comprehensive immigration reform. I still believe that. If Speaker Boehner would 

allow the measure to come to the floor, the bill that has sat on his 

desk for more than 500 days would receive majority support in the 

House. But even if we must disagree for now on the urgency of immigration reform, surely we can agree that we must not com-
19 

promise our national security in a futile effort to score political 

points against the president. 

Whatever you think of the underlying policy, a decision to defund 

the Department of Homeland Security simply will not result in the 

president’s reversing his actions on immigration. 

I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that the threat posed by ISIL 

to the homeland is real. I hope that our conversation today will 

convince my colleagues to prioritize our security over an unrelated 

political spat and fully fund DHS, Department of Homeland Security, without delay. 

I too join in welcoming our witnesses. I thank the Chairman and 

yield back. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The gentleman’s time has expired long ago. 

Without objection, other Member’s opening statements will be 

made apart of the record. 

Today we have a very distinguished panel of witnesses. I will 

begin by swearing in our witnesses before introducing them. 

If you would please rise. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about 

give to this Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God? 

Let the record show that all of the witnesses have answered in 

the affirmative. 

Charlotte Police Chief, Rodney Monroe, is unable to be here 

today due to the weather and his written testimony will be entered 

into the record without objection. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Monroe follows:] 
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Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Michael B. Steinbach is the Assistant Director of the Counter Terrorism Division. Mr. Steinbach began at 

the FBI in the Chicago Division. He has served as head of the Violent Crimes Taskforce at the FBI’s Washington Field Office, the Assistant Section Chief for the International Terrorism Operations 

Section of the Counterterrorism Division, and as Deputy Director 

for Law Enforcement Services at the CIES Counterterrorism Center. He was then appointed as Special Assistant to the Associate 

Deputy Director at FBI Headquarters. Mr. Steinbach has also 

served as the Special Agent-in-Charge of the FBI’s Jacksonville Division and later as the Special Agent-in-Charge of the Miami Division. 

Sorry you are coming to the snowy parts and you are at the end 

of your career. 

Mr. Steinbach has earned a Bachelor’s of Science Degree in aerospace engineering from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1988 after 

which he served as a Naval Aviator in the U.S. Navy. 

Richard W. Stanek, who is familiar as I am with weather like 

this, is the Sheriff of Hennepin County, Minnesota. In this role he 

created a new crime fighting unit at the Sheriff’s Office to serve 

law enforcement agencies and communities county-wide. Sheriff 

Stanek began his career at the Minneapolis Police Department, he 

rose through the ranks from patrol officer to commander of criminal investigations. While a police officer he was elected five times 

to the Minnesota legislature where he authored the State’s DWI 

felony law. In 2003, the governor appointed him Commissioner of 

Public Safety and Director of Homeland Security for Minnesota. 

Sheriff Stanek earned a criminal justice degree from the University 

of Minnesota and a Master’s Degree in public administration from 

Hamline University. 

You are all familiar with the green, yellow, and red lights in 

front of you. I would ask that you limit your testimony to a 5- 

minute summary after which the Committee Members will ask 

questions under the 5-minute rule. 

Mr. Steinbach, you are first. 

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL STEINBACH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, 

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION 

Mr. STEINBACH. Thank you, sir. 

Good morning, Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member Lee, 

and Members of the Committee. It is also good to see Ranking 

Member Conyers present and I appreciate Chairman Goodlatte’s 

opening remarks. 

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the dynamic threat of foreign fighters traveling in support of 

the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, commonly known as ISIL, 

and the continued threat to the United States posed by homegrown 

violent extremists. These threats remain one of the biggest priorities for the FBI, the intelligence community, and our foreign, 

state, and local partners. It is the blending of the homegrown violent extremism with the foreign fighter ideology which is today’s 

latest adaptation of the threat. I am pleased to be here today with 

a strong state and local partner, Hennepin County Sheriff, Richard 

Stanek. 
27 

Conflicts in Syria and Iraq are currently the most attractive 

overseas threats for Western-based extremists who want to engage 

in violence. We estimate upwards of 150 Americans have traveled 

or attempted to travel to Syria. While this number is small in comparison to the number of European travelers, we must also consider the influence of groups like ISIL have on individuals located 

in the United States who are inspired to commit acts of violence. 

It is this influence which I refer to as the blended threat. 

ISIL has proven ruthless in its violent campaign to rule and has 

become yet the latest terror group attracting like-minded Western 

extremists. Yet, from a homeland perspective, it is ISIL’s widespread reach through the Internet and social media which is the 

most concerning as ISIL has proven dangerously competent like no 

other group before it at employing such tools for its nefarious strategy. 

ISIL utilizes high-quality traditional media platforms as well as 

a multitude of most social media campaigns to propagate its extremist ideas. Like al-Qaeda and other foreign terrorist organizations, ISIL has effectively used the Internet to communicate, to 

both radicalize and recruit. Unlike other groups, ISIL has gone one 

step further and demonstrates an effectiveness to spot and assess 

potential recruits. 

Social media, in particular, has provided ISIL with a technical 

platform for widespread recruitment, operational direction, and, 

consequently, has helped bridge the gap between foreign fighters 

and homegrown violent extremists. 

As a communication tool, the Internet remains a critical node for 

terror groups to exploit. One recent example occurred just a few 

weeks ago. A group of five individuals was arrested for knowingly 

and willingly conspiring and attempting to provide material support and resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization active in Syria and Iraq. Much of their conspiracy occurred on the 

Internet. 

Following on other group’s doctrines, ISIL too has advocated for 

lone wolf attacks. Last month, ISIL released a video via social 

media reiterating the group’s encouragement of lone offender attacks in Western countries, specifically advocating for attacks 

against soldiers and law enforcement and intelligence members. 

Several incidents have occurred in the United States and Europe 

over the past few months thato indicate this call-to-arms has resonated among ISIL supporters and sympathizers. 

In one case, an Ohio-based man was arrested in January after 

he obtained a weapon and stated his intent to conduct an attack 

on the U.S. Capitol here in Washington, D.C. Using a Twitter account, the individual posted statements, videos, and other content 

indicating support for ISIL and he planned an attack based on his 

voiced support. 

Likewise, recent events in Australia, Canada, France, and the 

U.K. reflect the power of this radicalized message and reemphasize 

our need to remain vigilant in the homeland since these small-scale 

attacks are just as feasible within the United States. We should 

also understand community and world events as viewed through 

the eyes of the committed individual may trigger action as we have 

seen with the highly publicized events of the attack on the military 
28 

personnel at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Canada and the 

hostage situation at the cafe ́? in Australia. These acts of terror will 

attract international attention and may inspire copycat attacks. 

ISIL is not the only high profile terrorist organization of concern, 

however. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP, poses an 

ongoing threat to the homeland and U.S. interests abroad. AQAP’s 

online English magazine Inspire advocates for lone wolf attacks to 

conduct attacks against the homeland and Western targets by utilizing simple and inexpensive tactics and methods. 

Lastly, social media has allowed groups such as ISIL to use the 

Internet even more effectively by spotting assessing potential recruits. With the widespread distribution of the social media, terrorists can identify sympathetic individuals of all ages in the United 

States. Spot, assess, recruit, and radicalize, either to travel or to 

conduct a homeland attack. The foreign terrorist now has direct access into the United States like never before. 

As a result, it is imperative that the FBI and all law enforcement 

organizations understand the latest communication tools and are 

equipped to identify and prevent terror attacks in the homeland. 

We live in a technologically driven society and, just as private industry has adapted to these modern forms of communication, so too 

has the terrorists. Unfortunately, changing forms of communication 

on the Internet and through social media are quickly outpacing the 

laws and the technology designed to allow for lawful intercept of 

communication content. 

This real and growing gap the FBI refers to as ‘‘Going Dark’’ cannot be ignored. We must continue to build partnerships and work 

with Internet providers and social media companies to ensure lawful, appropriate collection when possible. Most companies are not 

required by statute to develop lawful intercept capabilities for law 

enforcement. As a result, services are developed and deployed without any ability to lawfully intercept and collect. 

The FBI, with our Federal, state, and local partners is utilizing 

all investigative techniques and methods to combat the threat 

radicalizing individuals may pose to the United States. In coordination with our domestic and foreign partners, we are rigorously collecting and analyzing intelligence information as it pertains to the 

ongoing threat posed by ISIL, AQAP, and other foreign terrorist organizations. 

I will end my comments here and put the rest in the record. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Steinbach follows:] 
29 
30 
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33 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Without objection. 

Sheriff Stanek? 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD W. STANEK, SHERIFF, 

HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNEAPOLIS, MN 

Sheriff STANEK. —— Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Could you please turn your mic on, Sheriff? 

Sheriff STANEK. I’m sorry. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. And we will reset the clock. 

Sheriff STANEK. Well, thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner and 

Congresswoman Jackson Lee, for you generous invitation to testify 

this morning about our community engagement efforts in the Twin 

Cities and, in particular, our outreach efforts to the Somali Diaspora Community. 

I’m Sheriff Rich Stanek from Hennepin County, Minneapolis, 

Minnesota, a very diverse county with 1.2 million residents; 

425,000 of those residents are non-Caucasian. We have 40,000 

Oromo, 35,000 Liberians, and nearly 100,000 Somali residents living in Hennepin County; the largest Somali population in the Nation. 

I have 32 years of policing experience and I currently serve on 

the National Sheriffs and Major County Sheriffs Association executive boards representing our Nation’s sheriffs. 

Mr. Chair and Members, just last week I joined our United 

States Attorney, Andy Luger and other community leaders from 

Minnesota to participate in a White House Summit on Countering 

Violent Extremism. We learned firsthand in late 2008 about the reality of radicalization when we had dozens of young men 

radicalized by al-Shabaab and leave the Twin Cities to fight in Somalia. Several have been confirmed killed fighting for al-Shabaab, 

including the first confirmed suicide bomber from the United 

States, Shirwa Ahmend. 

Mr. Chairman, as one of the Committee Members pointed out 

this morning, we also had Douglas McAuthur McCain, the first 

American killed in Syria fighting with ISIL. Most of these young 

men had never seen Somalia or Syria, they only knew of their 

American lives. Their parents were shocked that their sons would 

return to the place that they had so desperately fled. 

The threat of radicalization from designated terrorist organizations like al-Shababb or ISIL, has become even more invasive; 

YouTube videos and chat rooms, Facebook pages with links to increasingly violent radical online programs, training, and ideology. 

And these threats are real. 

Just this week, al-Shababb released another propaganda video on 

YouTube mentioning the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota, one of the largest cities in my county, encouraging alShababb followers to act out. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, Members, this is a marked change in the 

message from recruiting people to train overseas to recruiting 

Americans to train and act out here in the homeland; akin to a 

lone wolf. 

In response, we issued a joint media statement and public messaging, included the participation of local, state, and Federal law 

enforcement, as well as the Mall of America Security, a private cor-
34 

poration. We have developed these public-private partnerships that 

also include the Somali Community leaders, educators, and member of the business community, as well as faith leaders, to 

strengthen the public safety fabric of our community. 

Our efforts at first were to respond, but now we work to prevent 

and work to intervene. We help community leaders and family 

members identify the behaviors that can be cause for concern; such 

as withdrawal from family and normal social circles, accessing radical religious or Jihadist websites, forming close partnership within 

a small group of likeminded people, or obtaining large sums of 

money, conducting fundraising efforts, and acquiring travel documents amongst others. 

We are concerned, Mr. Chairman and others, about young people 

in isolation who cut themselves off from their family and their support networks. So we encourage parents, mothers and fathers, educators, business, and faith leaders, to close their own generational 

and cultural gaps and reach out to at-risk youth. We all share a 

common mission of protecting our kids and our future. 

Mr. Chair and Members, at first, traditional methods for building 

communities of trust weren’t working. We had language and cultural barriers that required new strategies: translations were difficult at best; men didn’t want women at meetings; certain groups 

were in opposition to other groups; The greatest barrier of all, 

though, Somalis were distrustful of law enforcement because in 

their home country law enforcement often operates as the oppressive arm of government. 

The key to overcoming these barriers was the one-on-one personal relationships between a gentleman named Imam Roble and 

myself. Imam Roble was introduced and offered his prayer for 

world peace at the opening of the White House CVE Summit just 

last week. Others trusted us because he trusted us. He became our 

sponsor in the community, personally asking members to attend 

One Day Citizen, academies tailored to the Somali community. And 

we let everyone know we would be working with everyone; the elders, the religious leaders, women, and youth. We hired the first 

sworn Somali Deputy Sheriff in Minnesota, Halssan Hussein. We 

added a Somali community member to our Community Engagement Team, Abdi Mohamed. 

A great example of our new level of engagement. A Somali 

woman on our Community Advisory Board assisted us in adopting 

a new policy on religious head coverings, hijabs, in our jail. 

For me and law enforcement officers like me across this great 

country, fulfilling our Oath of Office means more than respect. We 

protect the privacy and the civil liberties of all residents in addition 

to their safety. And, for us, this is what it means to serve and protect. 

Mr. Chair and Members, violent extremism is a local threat. 

Local law enforcement will be the first to respond and we should 

be on the front line to educate and strengthen our communities, 

and to prevent or disrupt these threats. Our local law enforcement 

efforts coincide with the White House National Strategy for 

Counterterrorism to protect our local communities in ways that are 

consistent with our values as a Nation and as a people. 
35 

By protecting the civil rights and liberties, we are strengthening 

our communities and building resiliency. 

Mr. Chairman and Members, we are presenting our American 

model of self-government, and the rule of law, an alternative to the 

radical message and ideology, a model of freedom and opportunity, 

education, dignity, and hope. 

Mr. Chair and Members, thank you very much for the opportunity to testify here this morning. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Stanek follows:] 
36 
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38 
39 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Well, thank you both for very on-point testimony. 

And Sheriff, let me say I particularly appreciate your outlined 

type of community outreach to basically identify people who might 

become radicalized by sitting in front a computer. I think that this 

is very important particularly in light of the FBI Director’s admonition that there are ISIL cells in every state in the country. It is 

a problem that we face in our local communities, and anyone who 

thinks that they are immune of the reach of these types of radicals 

because they live far away from New York or Washington D.C., I 

think,is deluding themselves. 

I guess that the best thing the citizens can do is, if you see something, say something and let law enforcement know about it. And 

the fact that the threat against the Mall of America was not something that was picked up through any kind of classified intelligence 

information but the radicals put it right up on the Internet, shows 

how embolden they are in terms of being able to try to perpetrate 

giving people who might not be in face-to-face contact with them, 

some very bad ideas on how to harm America and how to harm 

Americans. You know, I hope that what you have been doing in the 

Twin Cities is something that can be expanded nationwide where 

these undercover cells are. So thank you. 

I don’t have any questions of you. I think you hit all of the bases, 

but I do have some questions for Mr. Steinbach. 

We know that several U.S. citizens and U.S. persons have traveled to Syria. They usually go through Turkey; they sneak across 

the borders. How are you able to track these people and, I guess 

of greater concern, how are you able to track not only people with 

U.S. passports but people with passports from VISA waiver countries who have gone to Syria who might be returning or going to 

the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Sure. So I think it is a complicated answer. 

There are lots of ways we identify potential travelers: human 

source, technical means, strong partnerships, particularly with our 

European partners state and local level, partnerships. It has got to 

be a multitude of resources of plight toward the threat. We don’t 

get that threat right all the time. We don’t catch every single one 

that crosses, that leaves the country. As you know, it is not illegal 

to depart the United States, so we don’t track folks departing in 

the United States, and they have become very smart about going 

to European destinations to mask their travel. So we have to stay 

on top of it. So we have to, again, use a multitude of resources including foreign partners who stay on top of it. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Do you have the necessary authorities to 

be able to deal with these people should they attempt to come back 

to the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Absolutely. 

If an individual travels over to Syria in support of ISIL, on neutral front or any foreign terrorist organization, 2339, U.S. 18-2339, 

show support to terrorism, is a good tool to use and it is an effective tool. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Let me get to people who come from VISA 

waiver countries which are primarily Western European. Are you 

able to track whether any of the people who don’t need VISAs, in 
40 

an attempt to fly to the United States are able to be caught before 

they arrive and if they are not caught before they arrive at the 

time of the airport that they are entering into the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So, yes and no, sir. 

The knowns, and so I think Ranking Member Lee mentioned the 

numbers and the volume of travelers. That is the volume of travelers going to Syria that we know about. There is a, an order of 

magnitude that is unknown to European allies. The known members, the known travelers, they are watch listed appropriately. So 

whether they are from a VISA waiver country or not they are 

watch listed appropriately and we can spot them before they come 

to the United States. Those unknown individuals that the European allies are not aware of are not watch listed, that is the problem and that is where the challenge is. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Okay. Thank you very much. 

The gentle woman from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me thank both of you for the excellent testimony that you have given and the partnership, though it is not 

an established partnership, between local government sheriff and 

the FBI, Mr. Steinbach, is evident that it is crucial. 

Let me say to the Sheriff and to my colleagues, as Sheriff Stanek 

mentioned, he was in Washington last week and I am particularly 

grateful that you have accepted our invitation to come back this 

week. 

So let me go to you first. You made a very important statement 

that should be reinforced. And I think Mr. Steinbach, when I question him, will likewise reinforce it. In this country, violent extremism is a local threat as evidenced by FBI Director Comey as well, 

about ISIL cells and others. So you were in the eye of the storm. 

Earlier this week, the terrorist organization al-Shababb posted a 

video declaring that Westgate was just a beginning. Al-Shabaab 

and al-Qaeda, affiliate based in Somalia, took credit for the 2013 

attack on Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi; we know how vicious 

and vile that was and how many lost their lives. The video goes 

on to mention the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota 

which you have spoken of. 

So I want to pointedly ask you, do we not have a due responsibility? The threat came right to your doorsteps and I’d like you to 

offer either your assessment of the tools that you have, fusion centers, joint terrorism centers, collaboration, with that threat coming 

to your doorstep even if someone would argue that it is simply a 

threat with no ability to be implemented. I always believe that caution is the better of the game. But match that with your answer 

about the outreach and, as that video came out, the potential of the 

outreach in relationships to get information from the community in 

which we speak; the Somalian community. 

Sheriff? 

Sheriff STANEK. Sure. 

Well, thank you Congresswoman Jackson Lee. You are not the 

first one to ask me that question this week, so I appreciate that. 

Look, this—we have set. This propaganda video put out by ISIL 

mentioning the Mall of America and just that. It is not the first 

time it has been mentioned. Our resiliency in Minnesota with local 

law enforcement, my Federal law enforcement partners, is very 
41 

strong. We train, we exercise, we plan and prepare incessantly hoping that something bad never happens but knowing full well that 

each and every day across this country and across this world it 

does. But we are prepared. 

We worked through the Joint Terrorism Taskforce with the FBI, 

we work with our private sector partners like I mentioned, add on 

that the Mall of America is a private security force but they work 

hand-in-hand with the Bloomington Police Department, our Sheriff’s Office, our Federal law enforcement partners. Our fusion center in Minnesota is robust and does a great job day in and day out 

getting the information out to me as the Chief Law Enforcement 

Officer in my county. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. My time is running out. Go to the next part 

of it, the outreach part and how that plays a role. And then I have 

a question for Mr. Steinbach. So I am watching the clock, but 

thank you. 

Sheriff STANEK. Great. So, I’m sorry. 

Just yesterday afternoon, before coming out here, I had lunch 

with member of the Somalia Diaspora community. We talked about 

the Mall of America as well as other things. They renounced what 

they saw in that video. That would not have happened several 

years ago. They wouldn’t know how to respond. We work with them 

day-in and day-out to empower them to understand what is happening in their community with their young men and young women 

so that these radicalization efforts do not happen. It is about building long-term communities of trust and a respectful partnership 

that is enduring. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you so very much. 

Mr. Steinbach, let me thank you for your work and thank the 

FBI for that excellent work in New York just in the last 24 to 48 

hours. 

Very quickly, I’m concerned about the no-fly and—let me just say 

foreign fighters. And we are looking at legislation dealing with 

making sure our lists are accurate. But, frame for us again the extent of the potential foreign fighters coming to the United States. 

And then comment on any FBI efforts that deals with the extremism as it relates to women, which is increasing, as related by the 

Denver young ladies who I think the FBI was very much involved 

in; and certainly an article that I just read about a young woman 

in Scotland who was a perfect teenager and now has become known 

as the darling recruiter of women into extremism. How is the FBI 

sectioned, has a separate section or knowing that this is a particular issue that it must deal with? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So really quickly. So foreign fighter is a problem 

but it is a small problem compared to our European partners. The 

larger problem is that population of HVEs inspired—those individuals who were frustrated travelers, denied travelers don’t have the 

means to travel. Foreign fighters, small. The larger populous and 

the larger concern is much larger. ISIL and others are looking to 

recruit that part. They know they can’t travel so what they are 

doing is they are putting out a very effective propaganda message 

through social media, through lots of platforms saying ‘‘Hey, if you 

can’t come to Syria, doing something in the U.S. or Western countries.’’ 
42 

That social media outreach is focused on those who use social 

media; our youth. So you find the trend over the last year or so has 

been a decreasing age group that are being recruited both male and 

female, as well as you are seeing more females, younger females, 

attracted to this message. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The gentle woman’s time has expired. The 

gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Steinbach, let me begin by commending you and the FBI for 

your work in apprehending that 20-year old radicalized individual 

who intended to attack the capitol building across the street. This 

was sort of near and dear to me because he was from my district, 

went to a local high school there in the mosque that he allegedly 

attended, is about a quarter of a mile from the place I had my first 

job and is two miles from the home that I lived in for 30 years and 

lived in that, within two miles, for 50 years now. So this is right 

in the heart of where we come from. 

My first question was, he claimed to have attended that mosque, 

and it is relatively close to where he would have grown up et 

cetera. The coverage back home on television, the people from the 

mosque that were on TV were asked about him, said, ‘‘Well, we 

never saw him. We don’t know anything about him.’’ Is that something that has been looked into up to this point? Do we know if he 

was connected to that Mosque or not? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Let me be careful about talking about an ongoing investigation—— 

Mr. CHABOT. I understand. 

Mr. STEINBACH [continuing]. But I will say that, yes, we have 

strong understanding with our local partners there, state and 

locals, as to how as radicalization beginnings, what his intent was. 

So we are pretty comfortable understanding that individual. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. In that it was or wasn’t connected to that 

mosque? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So, again, I don’t want to get into the specifics 

of the investigation. I would say to back it up in general and talk 

about HVEs in general. I will say the majority of the radicalization 

proces now, though varied as it is, we are finding the majority is 

online and the Internet. 

Mr. CHABOT. Right. 

And clearly it looked at the majority of what the input came and 

the motivation was online and as you indicated that seems to be 

happening more and more frequently. 

Sheriff Stanek, let me ask you. I also want to commend you for 

your work in reaching out to the Somali community in your area 

and forging a strong bond—enforcement in the Somali Diaspora 

and the work you are doing to continue your hiring efforts in order 

to create a more diverse agency in those types of things. 

Let me ask you about—there has been some controversy about 

a spokeswoman at the state department who has made some interesting proposition about, you know, we need to find more jobs for 

these folks and, if we can do that, then they won’t end up killing 

us; for lack of a better term. Her quote exactly was ‘‘We need to 

go after the root causes that lead people to join these groups 

whether it is lack of opportunity for jobs or whatever, we can help 
43 

them build their economies so they can have job opportunities for 

these people.’’ 

And you know, with an unemployment rate of 3.6 which is 2 Percent under the national average in Minnesota and congratulations 

on that. Do you believe that if we had created more jobs for the 

dozens of young men who were radicalized by al-Shababb and became suicide bombers in Somalia that they would have chosen a 

different path? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congressman Chabot, 

thank you very much for that question. 

You know, I think that is only one part of the equation. I think 

that is not the only way that these individuals thrive and grow in 

our community. Minnesota prides itself on a very diverse community. Many of us in Minnesota are immigrants. I come from a Polish heritage, second generation. A lot of folks. But education, jobs, 

the economy, only one part of it. The other part is also understanding the American criminal justice system, understanding our 

culture, and for us to understand what they bring to the table. We 

have worked extremely hard on this. It is not easy. It is about 

those long-term trust and relationships that we are working every 

day to build. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you. 

And just to follow up and I am almost out of time here. As Chairman now of the Small Business Committee and having served on 

that Committee and this one for 19 years now, and I am all for job 

creation and getting this economy moving and we can do that by 

lessening the regulations on small businesses and reforming the 

tax code and a whole range of things, but anybody that thinks that 

a job program is going to go a long way toward solving our problem 

with these radicalized folks in this country or over there, I think 

that is not a very correct way of thinking about this. I mean these 

people are deadly serious. They have a job and that is beheading 

people and torturing people and, you know, their mentality is, you 

know, convert or die and we got to defeat them. 

Thank you. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to commend the testimony we have heard here today from 

these gentlemen and it is, to me, very important that I compliment 

Sheriff Stanek because you anticipated the very set of questions I 

was going to put to someone that is right there on the ground as 

to how do you interact and relate to people of a different faith, 

many of whom are very nervous about elected officials and law enforcement officials particularly. And yours, that you have discussed 

here today and the interaction that you have made, not only with 

the community but what the leaders of their community, are extremely critical. And I think it is a step-by-step instruction manual 

for local law enforcement officials everywhere in this country to follow. 

Are there any considerations about this part of our discussion 

here today that you would like to add to? 

Sheriff STANEK. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Conyers, you 

are absolutely correct and thank you very much. 
44 

The men and women who work in my Sheriff’s Office as well as 

my partner law enforcement agencies in Minnesota really appreciate that. In fact, as you know, Minnesota, the Minneapolis areas, 

was selected as one of the three pilot cities across the U.S., in Boston, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis, to share what we learned. Unfortunately, we learned as a result of some, you know, tragic incidents with Douglas McCain and Shirwa Ahmed but we fully intend 

on helping our local law enforcement partners understand what we 

can do. Race, ethnicity, gender have not place in terms of policing. 

We treat everybody equally and, like I said, we not only respect, 

we protect the civil rights and liberties. 

Mr. CONYERS. Well, that is what I think we need to get out because there is an understandable dichotomy between people of different faiths and religions relating to law enforcement and elected 

officials. And I think you have set the pace for how it ought to be 

done. And I hope that we can somehow get, incorporate, your experiences into messages that we here in Washington, all the members 

of the Federal legislature, get out all of the people in our country. 

Director Steinbach, I am, with respect to the threat posed by the 

Islamic State and other terrorist organizations, you state that the 

FBI along with our local, state, and Federal partners is utilizing 

all investigative techniques and methods to combat the threat 

these individuals may pose to the United States. Now, when you 

say Federal partners, do you include the Department of Homeland 

Security? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CONYERS. Well, I noticed that in your testimony on February 

the eleventh before Homeland Security, you referred specifically 

and explicitly to that. Isn’t that correct? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I am going to leave that to you—I assume so, sir. 

I can’t recall. 

Mr. CONYERS. Well, I can help you. You did. 

Mr. STEINBACH. Okay. 

Mr. CONYERS. But you didn’t mention that today. And, as you 

know, in very shortly we are going to be out of funding for that. 

Do you have any recommendations or views about the funding of 

the Department of Homeland Security? 

Mr. STEINBACH. No, sir. I will not comment on that. 

Mr. CONYERS. How come? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Sir, I think it is a political question and I am 

going to stay out of that. My job as the Assistant Director of 

Counterterrorism is to lead the FBI efforts in counterterrorism. 

Mr. CONYERS. Well, I tried. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The gentleman from Idaho, Mr. Labrador. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you very much. And I want to thank both 

of you for being here today. I want to thank you for your service 

and for the good work you are doing for the people of the United 

States and in your communities. 

Mr. Steinbach, in your written testimony you mention that ISIL’s 

online program propaganda efforts is a threat to Western interests. 

How is the FBI approaching spread of ISIL’s online presence? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I think it is not just the FBI, it is the whole 

of government including state and local partners like the Sheriff 
45 

here. We have to approach it from a counter messaging perspective 

where we look to counter violent extremists efforts at the local level 

in particular, like the Sheriff mentioned, a larger counter messaging narrative, and then, of course, we have to look at from an 

investigative point-of-view, from an intelligence collecting point-ofview. Find out where they are at and be where they are at in social 

media and on the Internet. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Sheriff, what are you doing at the local level to 

counter the, especially the propaganda that is on the Internet? 

Sheriff STANEK. Well, Mr. Chairman and Congressman Labrador, 

you know, we try and change the narrative of this propaganda. 

Like I said, it is not the first time the Mall of America, an iconic 

institution, happens to be located in Minnesota, has been mentioned. We go to the community itself and help empower them. We 

look to the young people like the organization called Ka Joog, Muhammad Farah and others were out here last week with us, where 

Imam Roble and the religious leaders or some of the business people like Mr. Bihi and others who every day are out in the community. They are reflective of the community and they work with local 

law enforcement to help change that narrative, help the young people understand, talking with the moms, the Somali mothers of 

these young men and women who for some reason choose, like I 

said, to be radicalized, maybe go overseas, maybe act out here, but 

we work with them. It is not easy. Like I said, it is a long-term 

trusted relationship, it is not just a conversation, it is a discussion 

we come back to the table time and time and time again. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you. 

Mr. Steinbach, we know that the problems we had in Brooklyn, 

that the persons who were arrested were not American citizens, 

they were legal permanent residents. Is that correct? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Now, are we finding that most of our problems 

are with non-citizens, with people that are here illegally, or are you 

finding more problems with actual young kids who were born in 

the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I think an interesting fact on some of the individuals that we investigate for support to ISIL is the lack of a 

singular profile. We find citizens, legal permanent resident aliens, 

some folks that are overstaying their VISA. There is actually quite 

a diversity of those individuals who, for one reason or another, 

stated an intent to harm the United States. 

Mr. LABRADOR. So do you think this is a growing threat? Do you 

think that the Brooklyn situation is representative of a growing 

threat of the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I believe that it is a good example of what the 

threat looks like which is individuals who perhaps began their intellectual curiosity looking online, at some point were radicalized 

before, but became more radicalized online, focused their efforts to 

do something to travel overseas. If they can’t travel overseas, to 

conduct an attack on the U.S. We are seeing that play more and 

more often. So I would say it is probably a good cross section of 

some of the cases we have. 
46 

Mr. LABRADOR. Are you finding a growing threat also of people 

coming from Western Europe and other areas to the United States 

who have these radicalized ideas? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I don’t if it is a growing threat. I don’t know 

if we see an uptick in Western Europeans coming to the United 

States to conduct an attack or do some type of operation. Again, it 

is a cross section of individuals, those who have been born and 

raised in the United States, those that are first generation residents, legal permanent residents, those who have come in and have 

overstayed their VISA. It really is a lack of a profile on their status 

that is remarkable in this threat. 

Mr. LABRADOR. How do you think we can then combat that? Do 

you have any suggestions for us here in Congress about some 

things that we should be doing and thinking about? 

Mr. STEINBACH. If I were to comment on one area where I think 

we are most concerned about as an organization, as an intelligence 

community, it is on the idea of ‘‘Going Dark’’ which I think I mentioned in my testimony. 

So there are essentially three paradigm shifts. After 9/11, the 

Internet, and this third paradigm shift being social media. And the 

ability of sympathizers, recruits, to use social media effectively is 

a concern for us. And the concern is that, with the number of social 

media companies, with encryption, we are continuing to ‘‘Go Dark’’ 

both as a law enforcement community, as an intelligence community. So I would ask Congress to look seriously toward updating 

CALEA and laws and legislation to allow us to lawfully intercept. 

When we have got the right through the FSK or through the criminal courts to intercept communication content, I would ask that we 

receive help from Congress to go down that road. It is a concern, 

and we continue to lose more and more ability to see the content 

lawfully. 

Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you. 

Mr. SENSENBRENNER. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The gentle woman from California, Ms. Chu. 

Ms. CHU. Sheriff Stanek, the countering violent extremism program is designed in part to encourage individuals to provide law 

enforcement with information deemed suspicious or predictive of 

violent extremism. I have heard from the Muslim American community who have concerns that the program is largely focused on 

them and that it can be stigmatizing, can lead to distrust between 

the American Muslim community and law enforcement. As someone who has worked directly on these issues, could you share your 

approach to building trust and ensuring that your community is 

safe or minorities are not isolated? And, could you also describe law 

enforcement to practices that have not worked in the past? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah. Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman Chu, 

thank you very much for that question. 

You are correct. Countering Violent Extremism, CVE, is different 

that Community Engagement Techniques, CET. And so we do not 

mix the two. You cannot, shall not, mix the two. If members of the 

Diaspora community think that your community engagement techniques are not nothing more than a front for intelligence gathering 

to counter violent extremism, that is a problem. You get at countering violent extremism by building strong relationships in the 
47 

community through community engagement techniques. And I 

want to be clear about that. 

Again, the strategy that local law enforcement uses is akin to 

community anointed policing concepts like we use with gangs and 

other things as we have fought them across this country. And they 

are age-old, tried and true techniques and practices in which local 

law enforcement works every day with those communities to help 

them understand, and, like I said earlier, to help empower them 

to do for themselves and be responsive to local law enforcement. 

Ms. CHU. Thank you for that. 

And, Director Steinbach, what steps are the FBI taking to ensure 

that the CVE programs do not stigmatize Islam or single out Muslim Americans? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I think the Sheriff alluded to it best, ma’am. 

Community Countering Violent Extremism is best left to the 

local level. I shouldn’t be sitting here in D.C. dictating how Sheriff 

Stanek is going to involve his community in that outreach and that 

program. We need to, at the Federal Government level, empower 

them but push it down to the community level, which is why I 

think you saw last week Los Angeles, Boston, and Minneapolis 

come and kind of lay out their models. I think each model has to 

be individually tailored based on the needs of the community. 

But I really think that CVE efforts needs to be pushed out to the 

local level, much like DARE. Let the community, not only the police, but community centers, religious institutions, the schools, they 

have to be intimately involved. They are the best place to handle 

that. 

Ms. CHU. Okay, thank you. 

Sheriff, 2 weeks ago in North Carolina, three young American 

Muslims were murdered execution style by a neighbor who, it is 

widely documented, expressed deeep hatred of Muslims as well as 

other religions. As you might imagine, there are many people in 

this country who have formed bigoted views of all Muslims as a result of ISIL. In fact, after 9/11 the number of anti-Muslim hate 

crimes increased nearly 500-fold. And in the year since, annual 

hate crimes have hovered in the 100 to 150 range; about five times 

higher than the pre-9/11 rate. What steps are being taken to ensure that hate crimes against American Muslims do not occur? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah. Mr. Chair and Congresswoman, we work 

extensively with the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of Civil Rights and Liberties, reaching out to our Muslim community helping them understand what their rights are, where to 

complain. 

We just dealt with a mosque in one of our local communities. 

They wanted to build a mosque. That suburban community said no, 

for whatever reason it was. We followed up with the United States 

Attorney. He was very bold, he was very straightforward. He sued 

that local community to help them have a better understanding, I 

think, of what it means for religious freedom and to be able to do 

what they want to do within the bounds of law. 

That mosque is now—the groundbreaking is next week. I will be 

attending proudly representing local law enforcement. That is a 

great example of doing things the right way for the right reason 

and not discriminating. 
48 

Ms. CHU. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. GOHMERT [presiding]. The gentle lady yields back. 

This time the Chair yields to the gentleman from Texas, Judge 

Poe. 

Mr. POE. Appreciate the Chairman. 

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. 

As the Chairman indicated, I used to be a criminal court judge 

in Texas and a prosecutor. I just give you that by way of background in the criminal justice area. 

A hundred and fifty Americans have traveled abroad, recruited 

by ISIS. How were they recruited? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I am sorry, sir? 

Mr. POE. How were they recruited? The so-called 150 that have 

been radicalized and gone abroad, how were they recruited? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So not 150 have traveled abroad. That is our category. So that includes a bucket of those who have tried to travel, 

those who have been killed, those who have been arrested. But 

broadly, that 150ish number, I would say there is a variety of 

means. If I had to categorize one method over the other, I would 

say the Internet or social media probably ranks highest, but there 

is also friends and associates. But I would say the Internet and social media probably is the overriding. 

Mr. POE. Would you agree with that, Sheriff? 

Sheriff STANEK. You know, Mr. Chairman and Congressman, I 

do. That, as well as I think extended families. A lot of folks in my 

community, again, maybe we are just a little bit different because 

I have got that large Somalia population, but a lot of them, a lot 

of them have extended family back in around the Horn of Africa. 

Mr. POE. I want to specifically talk about ISIS and other foreign 

terrorist organizations. With that label that we give them, not a 

terrorist that somebody may just say, ‘‘Well, that is a terrorist out 

there in the fruited plain.’’ But specifically, foreign terrorist organizations and ISIS and their recruitment. 

The Section 219 of the Immigration Nationality Act states that 

‘‘It is unlawful to provide a designated foreign terrorist organization with material support or resources including property tangible 

or intangible or services.’’ I’m sure you have heard that, read that 

before. 

Twitter seems to be one of the avenues of social media where individuals are radicalized or recruited through public Twitter sites. 

I am not talking about the private chatter. I am talking about the 

public. And they use propaganda, recruitment, and they raise 

money on Twitter. Would both of you weigh-in on the obligation of 

Twitter if any, in your opinion—I’m asking your opinion, not a 

legal opinion, of being more proactive on taking down those sites? 

After all, you just said they had been recruited by social media and 

that is just one of the many others; Facebook and YouTube seem 

to be a fairly good job of taking down those individual sites. Would 

both of you briefly weigh-in on that issue? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. 

So we have engaged Twitter. We have spent lots of time discussing with Twitter our concerns but I think we need to be careful 

that—because what we do see is, like you said, individuals engaging in the public arena on Twitter and other social media accounts, 
49 

but then they do very quickly take their conversations into private 

chat. 

So on the public forums, or in the public arena, we see just conversation, First Amendment conversations, if you would like. So I 

would be hesitant to dictate to Twitter how to conduct its business. 

Now, we do have conversations with them and when it is appropriate we explain to them the threat and we would hope that, by 

the terms of their service agreement, they would then remove those 

posts. But for the most part, from my experience, what you see is 

individuals who quickly take the conversation offline to an 

encryption device or some other means to really discuss plans and 

really discuss those things that we would use to charge somebody 

with material support. 

Mr. POE. Okay. I am about out of time so let me try to sum up 

just on this one issue. 

Foreign terrorist organizations, though, are not—we are not permitted to help foreign terrorist organizations under the code that 

I just read to you. We would never allow ISIS to take out an ad 

in the Washington Post recruiting folks to go to Syria, radicalize, 

and come back and kill us. We wouldn’t allow that to occur. Why? 

Because that would be aiding. To me, that would be violation of 

this statute. Statute does require, I am not talking about where we 

can disagree whether or not the recruiting. I am talking about 

open, obvious site of recruitment. Does the FBI, on occasions, recommend that Twitter take down that specific site? 

Mr. STEINBACH. No, sir, we don’t. 

Mr. POE. So you don’t make that recommendation to Twitter? 

Mr. STEINBACH. No. What we do is if we see a site of interest, 

we provide them some type of process to start monitoring that site. 

Now, in many cases—— 

Mr. POE. They monitor it, or you monitor it? 

Mr. STEINBACH. We request through legal process or through 

2702, we request that we get access to stored content, current content, and then in many cases what ends up happening is, Twitter 

then voluntarily takes it down. But we don’t—— 

Mr. POE. All right. 

Mr. STEINBACH [continuing]. Specifically ask to take down a site. 

Mr. POE. Okay. So you don’t make that request. You let them 

make that decision on their own. 

One more question if I may, Mr. Chairman? 

The three individuals or four that were apparently arrested 

today, Coney Island, through public news sources, states that the 

information to find out who these individuals were was through 

confidential informants. I am not asking you to comment on that. 

Confidential informants, as the term is used, is still one of the 

best ways, is it not, to find out who people are who are committing 

crimes not just in terrorism but any type of crimes in the community? Would you agree with that or not? Either one of you. 

Mr. STEINBACH. Absolutely. 

Mr. POE. Sheriff? 

Sheriff STANEK. Oh yes, sir. We encourage it. Like you said, the 

‘‘See Something, Say Something’’ campaign is akin to that as well. 

Mr. POE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you, all. 
50 

Mr. GOHMERT. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Now recognize the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Richmond, for 

5 minutes. 

Mr. RICHMOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to the 

witnesses and we had a Homeland Security meeting going on at 

the same time, and I think that the protection of the homeland is 

very important to everybody and it has us scattering today. 

Let me ask just a basic question. And, Mr. Steinbach, or Sheriff, 

you may have some insight. But, as you all deal and interact with 

ISIL, ISIS, IS, however you want to call it or the people involved 

in it, do you all have a sense of the endgame or what they perceive 

to be the win? And I ask that question because it helps me to understand, you know, how we deal with them in terms of homegrown terrorism and so forth. 

So, Mr. Steinbach, do you have a sense of that? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. 

I think ISIL has been pretty outspoken in its plan to reestablish 

the caliphate. If you look at some of their open source information, 

the caliphate extends well past Syria and Iraq, it goes into Northern Africa, it goes north. So I think that is their stated intent. And 

so, when they look to recruit, they look to recruit lots of individuals, foreign fighters, professionals, to come to the caliphate to help 

establish that caliphate. And, if you can’t come to the caliphate, attack the West. 

Sheriff STANEK. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Richmond, I 

absolutely concur. I think that is, I mean, that is the answer. That 

is what they seek from us or to do to us. 

Mr. RICHMOND. And I guess, in some of my reading and in it, I 

guess I was looking for the ultimate win and I don’t know if it is 

the plan for the apocalypse or the end of the world or whatever, 

but part of that becomes then, what message are they using in 

terms of social media to people in the United States to get them 

excited about getting involved in this? So, is it true, just a push on 

the religion? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Well, I think they have a very effective message. 

So, you know, perhaps previous groups like al-Qaeda identified the 

caliphate in years or decades to come. 

Mr. RICHMOND. Right. 

Mr. STEINBACH. ISIL has said the caliphate is now. Bring your 

family to the Islamic state now. And that is a fundamental difference. So it is a message that is resonating with a lot of individuals. And then, when you get online to some of these places, they 

describe a community, which is a false narrative of course, but they 

describe a community with schools and infrastructure and support 

services that I think younger and younger folks find attractive. 

And, again I will emphasize, that is a false narrative. 

Mr. RICHMOND. And I think that is a consistent with everything 

that I have read, that they pushed, that there is free healthcare, 

there is free schooling, and that your food and everything will be 

provided for you, but if you still want to work and do exceedingly 

well. You can and, you know, to the extent we can, and to what 

extent have we made sure that we get the information out there 

that this is not true, that it is all propaganda—intended to suck 
51 

you into the cause and to get you involved, but it is absolutely not 

true. 

And I have not seen that message out there as much as I have 

seen the opposite message. 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I think you are right, sir. We have an effective counter narrative, but the volume, the sheer volume, we are 

losing the battle; to the amount of use of social media and other 

Internet-based activities eclipses our effort. 

Sheriff STANEK. Mr. Chairman and Congressman, I think you are 

absolutely right, though. That counter narrative is really important 

and that is what we do when we counter violent extremism in our 

local community. When we reach out and work with the Diaspora 

community, they do it for us. We empower them. Like I said on, 

you know, Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening, after this video 

comes out about Mall of America and ISIL, the community itself 

responds. They didn’t do that years ago. We have empowered them 

to be able to do that and work with them. 

Mr. RICHMOND. Which is a great, I guess, probably last question 

is, how do we as a Congress and as a government empower them 

and include them more in helping us to fight something where we 

are at an adherent disadvantage as a government, as a traditional 

FBI or law enforcement, where minorities are so underrepresented? 

How do we expand the umbrella to help empower these and that 

faith religion to help us with this because they share our same interest and they want our same result, which is to defeat ISIS? So 

how do we include them? 

And, Mr. Chairman, after that answer I yield back. 

Sheriff STANEK. Mr. Chairman, can I answer that question? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Yes, please. 

Sheriff STANEK. Thank you very much. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Both of you, if you wish, may answer the question; sure. 

Sheriff STANEK. Congressman, I think you are absolutely right 

again. But, you know, should this Committee ever choose to get out 

of D.C., instead of you home districts, come visit me in Minnesota. 

I would be happy to sit down with you at the Safari Restaurant on 

31st and 4th Avenue South, in the heart of the Somali community. 

Meet Abdi Warsame, a Minneapolis elected city council member, 

meet a member of the Minnesota legislature, the first one elected 

in the country. Meet the school board members who are Somalian 

Americans. Understand that they are working really hard and now 

they have moved on and now they are representing their community in the very venues like we do, like you do. 

I think that is really important. And I encourage you, if you ever 

get a chance, call me. I would be happy to sit down and have a 

meal with you at the Safari Restaurant or somewhere else. 

Mr. STEINBACH. And I strongly couldn’t top that. I think the 

Sheriff is right. It is his efforts and the efforts of police officials and 

sheriffs around the country that need to be leading the way in this 

counter messaging effort. They know their communities much better than I do and I wouldn’t pretend to take lead in that. I expect 

and it is happy to see individuals like this sheriff to take lead in 

that and make effective use of that outreach. 
52 

Mr. GOHMERT. All right. Thank you. The gentleman’s time has 

now expired. 

The Chair now recognizes a gentleman from Michigan, Mr. 

Bishop, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I’d like to take the 

opportunity to thank both of you for being here today. It is refreshing to see the collaboration that goes on between local and Federal 

departments. 

I am from the Detroit area, Oakland County, Michigan. Home of 

Mike Bouchard, who was our sheriff and has done a similar job in 

establishing a relationship with the Federal agencies in the Detroit 

area. And I am grateful for that because they are building the 

same kind of relationships. I was just briefed by the FBI in Detroit 

and they are doing a fantastic job. 

In an area, we are a border community, we are a number of 

races, religions; it is a melting pot in our community. So it is a 

fulltime job in building relationships, and law enforcement has 

done a great job. 

I mention that because ISIL controls a large swath of territory 

in Eastern Syria and Northern Iraq, and there are seven Nations 

that border Iraq and Syria including Iran and Lebanon. And near 

as I can figure, that is seven different exit points and entry points. 

And I am wondering if you can comment, I guess specifically to the 

director, do you have relationships with these foreign Nations the 

same as you have with your local law enforcement that help coordinate your efforts? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I wanted to say, just the FBI alone, the intelligence community, the U.S. government, has robust relationships 

with neighboring countries, Western allies, and that relationship 

has become all the more important as the world is shrunk in this 

speed with which information must be shared is needed. So, yes. 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you. 

I want to go back to this ‘‘Going Dark’’ issue that you raised earlier. I didn’t think you had enough time to expound upon that. As 

a former prosecutor myself, I understand the importance of information and having the opportunity to gain access to certain information. But I also understand the civil libertarians out there are 

concerned about how that information is accessed and the process 

by which you are to access it. We hear a lot of talk about Section 

2702 and all these legalisms that are out there. But can you explain to folks generally speaking how you obtain this information 

and the fact that you just don’t have open access to that information? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. I would be happy to. 

So I think it is important to note what we are talking about is 

not obtaining additional authorities, expanding authorities, but 

being able to use those existing authorities we have. So with the 

telecommunication and social media companies, the Internet companies, as they increase their technology, we don’t have the ability 

to go in with the same legal authorities we have always had to obtain content. Whether that is a criminal investigation for child 

pedophiles or gangs or organized crime or terrorism. We are talking about going with a lawful court order, on the national security 

side of the house, that will be the FSK or, if we are talking about 
53 

through the criminal side, through the courts, with a court order 

signed by a magistrate that would allow us lawfully to see that 

content. 

We are not talking about looking in obtaining additional authorities or expanding our reach. We are talking about that same ability 

we have always had. And I will say that we are losing that ability. 

If you look at the numbers in a classified setting, we can talk more, 

but we are getting further and further away from that ability, that 

lawful ability that we are asking for. 

Mr. BISHOP. Tell me, just so the public understands, what 

threshold that you have to show to gain access, to get that court 

order for example, to do what you need to do? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So we have to go to a court, either the FISC or 

to a magistrate in the criminal courts or at the state level or at 

the Federal level, and show cause. So probable cause as to why, 

provide and affidavit that lays out the facts that shows why we believe it is important and necessary toward the investigation to look 

at that either that stored content in the search, or look at the ongoing content. 

Mr. BISHOP. And a warrant is not issued unless there is an established probable cause based on the evidence you presented and 

the testimony you presented; correct? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Correct. 

Mr. BISHOP. Very quickly. There are three amendments to the 

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which will be expiring on 

June 1, 2015, including Section 206 and 215 of the USA Patriot 

Act. Can you tell me how the expiration of these authorities would 

impact the FBI’s ability to conduct investigations? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I think it would have a negative implication. We 

use those tools responsibly, but we use them to identify those individuals that have stated an intent to conduct a terrorist attach or 

support a foreign terrorist organization. And if those tools, those 

lawful tools, expire, it will limit our ability to do our jobs. 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. 

This time, I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. 

I appreciate you being here, your testimony. I am still confused 

after these years over communication problems within our homeland security. I wasn’t here when homeland security department 

was created but, since I have been here at times, it seems like it 

has created more bureaucracy to get through in trying to get messages to and from the different departments that are affected. 

I was curious. I had seen an article today, in Breitbart, about 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection and special agents with U.S. 

Immigration Custom Enforcement. Homeland Security Investigations got a tip about a large shipment of marijuana, it has resulted 

in finding a tunnel in a home in Arizona and it had a hydraulic 

lift coming up from the tunnel. They are saying 4,700 pounds of 

marijuana were found. And I am curious, the article indicates that 

a significant number of the finds of tunnels don’t come from detecting tunnels. 

Mr. Steinbach, are you familiar with efforts to try to locate tunnels that might be going across our border? I know it normally effects more the DEA but, ever since I read the Tom Clancy novel 
54 

where, yeah, where the drug tunnels ended up being hired out by 

cartels, actually the Middle Eastern terrorists, I wondered if that 

isn’t a possibility if some of our enemies are as smart as Tom 

Clancy was. Are you consulted? Does counterterrorism division look 

at those issues at all? 

Mr. STEINBACH. We do, sir. And I think you break it down between known threats and vulnerabilities. So the southwest border 

would certainly be a vulnerability. So part of our job is working 

with the rest of the intelligence community, again, with the locals 

in that area, to discuss and research what potential vulnerabilities 

are out there that not only would be used by a drug cartel but 

could also be exploited by a foreign terrorist organization. 

So we have a process. We work with our partners through the 

JTTFs, through the fusion centers, make sure that stuff like that, 

information like that, is spread horizontally across the infrastructure so that my folks in counterterrorism with a counterterrorism 

slant can look at it, the Sheriff’s folks can take a look at it from 

local law enforcement. Really, the key is having an infrastructure 

set up so that the fusion centers, the JTTFs, have a robust information sharing process so that when stuff pops up across the spectrum of the 17,000 state and local and tribal agencies that it is 

quickly pushed to where it needs to go. 

Mr. GOHMERT. You bring up the fusion centers. I had heard from 

some of our law enforcement that, gee, it has now become a oneway street, the feds want us to give them our information but we 

can’t get information back from them. 

Sheriff, how has your communication been in the last few 

months with the fusion center? Have you had any success in getting information from the Federal authorities? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, you raise a good point as 

well. Some of that relies on individual states and your criminal intelligence sharing laws. Like, in my state, I am not allowed to 

share that information between Federal and local law enforcement. 

Many other states, it is some patchwork of local state laws. 

However, we have a good relationship with our fusion center. 

Just on Sunday afternoon, we received a joint information bulletin 

from the FBI, from the Department of Homeland Security, talking 

about the Mall of America and this video that I referenced earlier. 

That is information we need. It was timely, it was accurate, it was 

to the point, and it helped us prepare or better prepare. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And actually, you bring up, Mr. Steinbach, the 

issue of vulnerabilities. I had seen an article, February fourteenth, 

again Breitbart reported, that the border patrol agents catch Middle Eastern man sneaking into Texas and that is the most I had 

seen reported. But my sources indicate that actually he was from 

Iraq, he spoke fluent Russian, and that supposedly all he would 

say about his occupation is that he trained people. Does your 

counterterrorism division get word when people like that from 

countries where there is radical Islam at play, do you get word 

when those type of situations arise? Do you get a chance to question someone like— 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, sir. 

So I would say, going back to the fusion center piece, just to kind 

of show that type, we have over 100 agents and analysts sitting in 
55 

fusion centers. We have got 57 of our fusion centers have access to 

FBI databases sitting there. That information starts generically at 

the local level and is pushed to us. 

So in the case of the gentleman you are talking about, that would 

be classified as a ‘‘special interest alien.’’ Those individuals coming 

from countries of concern that need greater scrutiny to look towards, you know, what are their true motivations and intentions 

for trying to sneak across the border. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Did you know about this particular Iraqi 

individual that trains people that speaks Russian? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I, myself, did not personally. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. All right. 

Well—yes? 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. May I? I have just—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. I yield to the gentle lady from Texas. 

You and I are the only ones left, so certainly. I doubt that since 

I would object that there is any other objection. So unanimous consent, you may. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. The gentleman is very kind. First, my appreciation to the Chairman for his steady line of questioning. We have 

worked together on a number of issues. And then, my appreciation. 

Mr. Chairman, I think you were here when I noted that Sheriff 

Stanek was here last week and was quick to accept our response, 

or our invitation to come back again to Washington. We know we 

might love it, and I am smiling with that, but we know that our 

visitors have work at home and we appreciate that. 

We thank Mr. Steinbach for his years of service. 

So let me just have these quick questions. I ask a question about 

women and the increasing recruitment of women and their adherence to extremism which has made a very big point in our meetings 

last week. So I want to make sure of that there is a different approach to how men are recruited and sometimes a different approach to women even though the practice is empowerment, excitement. Have you begun to look at that distinctiveness of the recruitment of women? 

Sheriff Stanek? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman, we 

have. In fact, I have had several conversation with a young Somali 

woman in Minnesota, very active, named Fartun Weli who serves 

on the sheriff’s community advisory board. She is very engaged 

with the community. In addition, we meet roundtable of Somali 

women. Like I said, many of them are moms and they understand 

what is happening with their young people and what is driving and 

motivating them. They are the key at the end of the day to a lot 

of our outreach efforts with the community itself. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. So I will finish with Mr. Steinbach, but my 

final question to you is: You have been in law enforcement for 32 

years and you were obviously serving during the heinous acts of 9/ 

11, do you feel that we are better communicators and exchangers 

of information and intelligence today between local and state and 

Federal than we were pre-9/11 or 9/11? 

Sheriff? 

Sheriff STANEK. Yeah, Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman, I absolutely do. 
56 

You know, there was a time when we would have been at opposite ends of this table. Not anymore. Federal law enforcement agencies like the FBI and DHS are full partners with local law enforcement. I represent the Nation’s sheriffs. I was impressed that the 

congressman knew Sheriff Bouchard who is my mentor, Sheriff 

Garcia from your county, and many of the others who serve here. 

We do it for the right reason every day, but we work hand-in-hand 

with our Federal partners. We may be the boots on the ground but 

we can not do it alone. We need what they have and they have 

been very willing, whether it is Director Mueller or Director 

Comey, to come to the table and provide that to us. 

Thank you. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Steinbach, I will finish the courtesies of 

the Chairman, first of all, thank you very much, Sheriff. First of 

all, to say that I would hope that if Congress gives Federal law enforcement more tools, such as for example, a thorough watch list 

and the no-fly list that we seek to make sure that it is thorough 

that that would be a helpful tool, even as it may be a large number 

or small number but always to be accurate, is a helpful tool. Is that 

not correct, Mr. Steinbach? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, ma’am. Of course. I think the more tools 

you can provide us, the better we are able to do our job. When you 

consider the evolving threat and the changing nature, I think the 

more tools are more important for us. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I appreciate that. 

Then, I would just ask you this simple question. I think you were 

certainly serving this country pre-9/11 and now you are continuing 

to serve the country. Would you say that the communication between all levels of law enforcement around this rising and increasing threat of terrorism is much better than it was when we couldn’t 

follow the dots of a memo on a desk in, I believe, it was Minneapolis that did not connect the dots of individuals learning to 

take off and not land? Are we at a better point? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I would say we are absolutely in a better place. 

And I will give you an example. From my perspective is, I don’t 

have responsibilities necessarily for Minneapolis or Minnesota, yet 

I have met Sheriff Stanek on numerous occasions. We are not 

strangers. This is not the first time we have met. I have been at 

the major county sheriffs and major city chiefs. We have had interactions and we have a very robust relationship. 

I think the JTTF process is the right balance of pushing and we 

have learned as we have gone. Certainly, we have made mistakes 

but we continue to improve. I would say that our information sharing process is better than it has ever been. And I would challenge 

us that we need to continue to not only share but share real-time, 

at the speed of light—— 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I agree. 

Mr. STEINBACH [continuing]. Because that is how quickly the information has to get passed. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. My last point: Would you reaffirm that the 

outreach tactics, relationships, with these unique communities, in 

this instance the Somalian community but there is the large populations in places like Michigan and elsewhere, Texas, is important 

and are you tune-in to the new element of extremism among 
57 

women, particularly women that can be attracted to the fight with 

ISIL? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, ma’am. That tool is invaluable. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Pardon me? 

Mr. STEINBACH. That tool is invaluable. You know, when you 

look into radicalization, it is a spectrum. It starts with someone 

with intellectual curiosity and it drives to a point where they have 

developed an intent where enforcement disruption is necessary. 

But, before you get to the point where law enforcement action is 

necessary through prosecution, through deportation, there is a 

whole piece to that at the local level; the sheriffs is involved in and 

in trying to change that intellectual curiosity and change course of 

that individual. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. And women and extremism? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Women and extremism, it is a new phenomenon 

and ISIL has taken advantage of it. They still are a minority but 

they are a much larger minority than they were 2, 3 years ago. 

And so, it is a new for us. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, you have been very kind. I 

want to thank the Judiciary Committee and particularly this Subcommittee for recognizing its duty and responsibility. And the issue 

of extremism among young women is an issue of concern to me and 

I hope that this Subcommittee and the full Committee can look collaboratively on this unique but growing phenomenon that has a capacity to expand and become extremely dangerous. 

So I thank the gentleman for his kindness. I yield back my time. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I thank the gentle lady. The issue of communications was touched on eloquently. It brings to mind another couple 

of questions I wanted to ask Mr. Steinbach. 

Previously, you know, numerous times we have had Secretary of 

Homeland Security here. And I have seen emails discussing, and 

they were not classified, discussing Secretary Napolitano’s handsoff—— 

[Pause.] 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. List in reference to someone with 

known terrorist ties and that this individual, it turns out a man 

with known terrorist ties, foreigner, was on the secretary’s personal 

hands-off list. Is your division ever consulted over people that, I 

don’t know if I know Secretary Johnson has a hands-off list or not 

like apparently Secretary Napolitano did, but is your division ever 

consulted on people that may be put on a hands-off list by Homeland Security? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I am not aware of any hands-off list. I would 

say that we follow the intelligence, we follow the evidence. So if we 

identify information that suggests somebody is a member of supporting foreign terrorist organization radicalizing, we open a predicated investigation. That is a political move and we follow the intelligence to its logical conclusion. If that person is supporting a 

foreign terrorist organization, our job and our goal and our mission 

is to disrupt. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, if someone is a member, associate of known 

terrorists, member of a terrorist organization, I would hope that 

your division would take notice of that. We had Secretary 

Napolitano testify and I asked her about a man, a foreigner, with— 
58 

ties, a member of foreign terrorist group, being allowed to visit the 

White House and she didn’t know anything about it. She said ‘‘I 

can live with that as long as somebody in Homeland Security 

knows about it and is vetted—’’ 

[Pause.] 

Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. The individual and we had someone 

with those type ties that was cleared to visit the White House. Is 

the counterterrorism division ever consulted on people who may 

visit the White House who have ties to terrorist groups? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Anybody coming to the United States is subject 

to a vetting process. The terrorist screening center, there is a 

multiagency process that reviews databases to ensure that—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. Are you talking about people coming legally into 

the United States? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I mean, yes, sir. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. 

Mr. STEINBACH. Yes, coming legally into the United States, there 

is a multiagency vetting process that reviews, to ensure that there 

are no ties that would suggest him or her a threat to the United 

States. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. So from that, do you know if 

counterterrorism division was consulted before a member of a terrorist organization was allowed to visit the White House? 

Mr. STEINBACH. I don’t know what incident you are talking 

about, sir, but—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay—— 

[Pause.] 

Mr. STEINBACH. I would say that the process isn’t to contact 

counterterrorism it is to contact the terrorist terrorist screening 

center, to go through the database checks. We review that, we are 

apart of that. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And whose duty is it to notify you that such a person may be coming to the White House? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Any individual who comes to the United 

States—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. Right. 

Mr. STEINBACH [continuing]. Is required to obtain a VISA, some 

type of legal process to come to the United States. Once they go to 

the State Department for that legal process, it kicks in a number 

of checks that are automatic regardless—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Well now, that raises a whole other question because I understood the FBI was, I believe it was first the 

Russians notified the CIA that they had evidence or concerns that 

Tsarvaev had been radicalized and when nothing was done, as far 

as they could tell, they notified the FBI that they had concerns 

Tsarvaev had been radicalized, of course I am talking about the 

Boston Bomber. Are you now saying that counterterrorism division 

would have been notified by either the CIA or the FBI that the 

Russians had concerns that Tsarvaev had been radicalized or did 

you guys ever take a look at Tsarvaev before the Boston Bombing? 

Mr. STEINBACH. So I think it is well-known, sir, that we opened 

a guardian based on information provided to us by that foreign government. At the end of the day, when we looked at the information, 

it didn’t lead anywhere. And so, the guardian was closed. 
59 

Mr. GOHMERT. Were you aware of what investigation the FBI did 

before you closed that? 

Mr. STEINBACH. Absolutely. There is a process before we 

close—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. Oh, I know. Director Mueller testified. They didn’t 

go to the mosque to talk—they went to the mosque but it was 

under their outreach program. They never went to the mosque that 

was started by convicted terrorist Alamoudi to see if anybody there 

had any idea whether Tsarvaev had been radicalized, was he reading Qaeda, was he reading things that had been known to 

radicalize others? Nobody asked those questions at the mosque he 

was attending. And from what we can tell, the best we got from 

the FBI, they talked to the bomber and talked to his mother, but 

I never was able to get any other information that anybody else 

was really talked to thoroughly. 

They talked to him, they talked to his mom. They say they are 

not terrorists, they go to the mosque and the outreach program, 

never asked about are there any terrorist-type comments, 

radicalized comments, has he read milestones like Osama bin 

Laden and is now thinking more radical. Apparently, nobody asked 

those questions, so I am really sorry, but it doesn’t give me comfort 

that you would close it based on the testimony we have had from 

other individuals of how little they did to stop the Boston Bombing 

but we appreciate it. 

And the record will be open for a period of—all Members will 

have 5 legislative days to submit additional written questions for 

the witnesses or additional materials for the record. And in fairness to both of you, if you think of something you would like to be 

part of the record, you would like for the Committee to know, than 

please provide that within 5 days and we will include that as part 

of the record as well. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Yes? 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I just want to acknowledge that I have a 

group of members who are former retired law enforcement and National Coalition of Law Enforcement Officers for Justice, Reform 

and Accountability who are in the audience. I just want to acknowledge them, the CLEO, and thank them for their presence here 

today. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Yeah, and I know we both share not only appreciate their presence but thank them for what they do day-in, dayout, so thank you for being here. Hearing nothing further, this 

hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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