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1

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Suite GH-035, Forrestal Building

 Washington, D.C.

 Thursday, July 18, 2013

 8:10 a.m.

Reported by: Janel Benoit Folsom,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4 PARTICIPANTS

5 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

6

Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

7

Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

8

Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

9

Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

10

Alex Bosenberg, NEMA

11

Robert Brown, WaterFurnace International, Inc.

12

John Clements, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc

13

John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

14

Mary Dane, Traulsen

15

Laura Degitz, Navigant Consulting

16

Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

17

Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

18

Jill Hootman, Trane

19

Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company

20

John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

21

Diane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

22

Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued)

3 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

4 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC

5 Aris Marantan, Ph.D., U.S. Department of Energy

6 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

7 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

8 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc.

9 Michael Rivest, Navigant Consulting

10 Wes Roan, Bard Manufacturing Company, Inc.

11 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

 Economy

12

Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

13

Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

14 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

15 Judd Smith, CSA International

16 Mike Stem, Intertek

17 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products

18 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing

19 Corey Tucker, Navigant Consulting

20 Kevin Washington, ITW

21 Collin Weber, Navigant Consulting

22 Robert J. Whitwell, Carrier Corporation
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued)

3 Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises

4 Wes Wostal, ClimateMasters, Inc.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. BARHYDT: We are going to start with

3 some of the products that we haven't gone through yet.

4 So we're actually going to go step by step through

5 definitions and the different features for water

6 cooled, evaporatively cooled. And Corey is going to

7 be putting them on the slides as we go through. And

8 so we actually need your all's feedback on what

9 exactly the tasks are and probably do some of the

10 information gathering. Just pick one.

11 Okay. So condenser pumps, valves, and

12 fittings are additional components in the water

13 circuit for water control of filtering. So can

14 somebody describe what exactly these are, the impact,

15 market share, the same sorts of things that we have

16 gone through before?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We're still on commercial

18 HVAC. Is that correct?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Water source.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Jill, are you the only

22 manufacturer in the room who --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Where's McQuay?

2 MR. JOHNSON: Right here.

3 MALE SPEAKER: There may be some people on

4 the phone, too.

5 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. There should be some

6 people on the phone.

7 MR. SACHS: I wonder if it would be possible

8 to print these out. It might be an awful lot easier

9 to look at.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's going to be a while.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have internet?

12 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Can you email it to Dave?

14 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it just pages 8 through

16 10?

17 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. As I am looking

19 at this, the numbers in column 1 seem to be sort of

20 arbitrary, carried forward from other technologies.

21 MR. THARP: Yes.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.
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1 MR. SACHS: So we should be able to kill a

2 bunch of them pretty quick.

3 MR. THARP: Well, these are the ones that

4 are

5 --

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's already edited that

7 way.

8 MR. SACHS: Where did you find it?

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's already edited that

10 way.

11 MS. BARHYDT: How many copies do we need?

12 MR. SACHS: Do I have that?

13 MR. THARP: Thirty.

14 MALE SPEAKER: Is this a file that's up on

15 the SharePoint?

16 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know if this one is

17 on SharePoint or not. Yes, it's on SharePoint. It's

18 on SharePoint from July 1st.

19 MR. STEPHENS: John, I'd say probably about

20 33-34.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. Do you want me to

22 walk through each one of these or what?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

2 MR. JOHNSON: So on that list, just so you

3 know, we just added like four or five water source

4 heat pump options. The rest of them really aren't

5 applicable. So we should really only be talking about

6 five options at the most.

7 MS. TUCKER: Yes. I've got five. I have

8 condenser water reheat because someone brought it up

9 in one of the other meetings.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. That was Wes from

11 ClimateMasters.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Would you like me to leave it

13 on the list?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, you should leave it on

15 the list.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

17 MR. JOHNSON: He's on the line. He can

18 explain that because I think ClimateMasters is the

19 only one that does that.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So yes. I have six,

21 including -- yes. I have --

22 MR. JOHNSON: Then that's about right.
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1 MR. THARP: Well, there's an additional

2 slide. Do you have -- I can give you an additional

3 slide that they sent on the condenser water reheat.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MR. THARP: They sent --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I'll give this back.

7 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from

8 ClimateMasters.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Hey, Wes.

11 MR. WOSTAL: How are you guys doing?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Hot.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a bad question to

14 ask.

15 MR. WOSTAL: I like yesterday morning's

16 start, rather than this one, at 7:00 o'clock.

17 The condenser water reheat, I sent an

18 identification of that during the last meeting or I

19 think right after the last meeting. And I believe I

20 sent it to -- I forget the gentleman's name, but he's

21 with McQuay.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Tom.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: We got it, Wes.

2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. Are we still

4 flipping around or --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I can go back.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: We have gone back and forth

7 between these two slides that I have got to figure

8 out. So condenser pumps, valves, fittings, every

9 system once installed in the field needs these. We do

10 as a -- you know, we ship with most systems. Well, we

11 can ship with most systems these specialties for them

12 to install in the field, but they are unique to each

13 application depending on how much piping is going to

14 get done, what size fittings, what size valves, where

15 they're going to put them in, all that kind of stuff.

16 It is very customer-specific.

17 MR. STEPHENS: So Jill?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: We have a package. We

19 typically have some packages of those they get shipped

20 with and installed in the field.

21 MR. STEPHENS: This is Phillip Stephens from

22 HTP. Just to make sure everybody understands, this is
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1 the circulation pump that actually circulates the

2 water

3 --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

5 MR. STEPHENS: -- into the ground --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

7 MR. STEPHENS: -- and returns it so that it

8 comes out at the right temperature.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I worked in

11 this field for several years. And that was a long

12 time ago. But there are a couple of observations I

13 would like to make. One of them is I have a strong

14 impression that when this stuff is put in at the

15 factory, it gives fewer problems than when it is

16 field-installed and also costs less.

17 The second is we are seeing a trend toward

18 the use of small cassette pumps and integrated into

19 the water source heat pump, instead of two-way valves,

20 so that you basically are taking a large loop, which

21 might have 50 water source heat pumps on it or ground

22 source heat pumps, and you're simply using a very
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1 small main circulator. You're not worried about

2 laminar flow at low velocities, at low loads. And

3 then the cassette pump diverts water into that heat

4 pump and reinjects it into the same single loop.

5 It goes back to an ancient McQuay system.

6 It was a McQuay mono block or whatever it was called,

7 but that is replacing all of the valves. And, again,

8 we're seeing more interest in the integration for

9 economics and reliability and simplification of the

10 build process in the field.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Correct, but these are all

12 part of the system; right?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. SACHS: Right.

15 MR. JOHNSON: And so the basic unit has none

16 of this.

17 MR. SACHS: And the ISO standard, which we

18 have adopted, is testing without these pumps.

19 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Exactly. So --

20 MR. SACHS: And so it seem to be --

21 MR. JOHNSON: -- the list only --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So if you put them in,
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1 it would actually add restriction in the water

2 circulation such that it would, you know, cause a

3 degradation on your performance as a testing.

4 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from

5 ClimateMasters.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead, Wes.

7 MR. WOSTAL: The ISO standard, it takes into

8 account this pump. There is a pump penalty that is

9 figured into the calculation for efficiency.

10 MR. SACHS: Wes, this is Harvey. The bottom

11 line for me is that this is a field that is relatively

12 small, a couple of hundred thousand units a year, as I

13 recall. And it seems a whole lot better, more

14 sensible to align the DOE processes with what are

15 international standards that have been adopted in this

16 country than to try to modify the wheel to go over our

17 terrain.

18 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Wes,

19 it's a penalty calculation. It's not a measured

20 value, though; right, in the ISO standard?

21 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, yes. Well, it is based on

22 the pressure drop across the water condenser, the
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1 coil, the water coil, and the flow rate. You take the

2 pressure drop across the water coil and the flow rate.

3 And there is a penalty calculated that is a watt

4 calculation.

5 MR. FLY: Right.

6 MR. WOSTAL: And that gives you the watts

7 that are added in to overcome the resistance of the

8 water coil for pumping.

9 MR. FLY: So it is in this case part of the

10 test procedure?

11 MR. WOSTAL: Yes.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It is, but you wouldn't want

13 to add on these other shipped-with items because then

14 it would be --

15 MALE SPEAKER: Doubled.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- doubled as well as -- you

17 know, the pump factor is there, but the valves and the

18 fittings also have some loss, too.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

20 MR. SACHS: I thought geothermal was a free

21 lunch. So I move that bullet one not be condensable,

22 that bullet 1 not be present during DOE testing.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Say that one more time.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: He agrees with our position.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's all she wanted to

5 hear.

6 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Take a vote or are we going

8 to do them all?

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any further discussion

10 or should we vote?

11 Anybody object to this? Anybody abstain?

12 Okay.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is the description good

14 enough? It seems a little succinct compared to

15 others. I'm not familiar with this technology at all.

16 MR. SACHS: You're going to test a naked

17 unit.

18 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I think that

19 covers it.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

21 MR. SACHS: Wes, on bullet 2, -- this is

22 Harvey -- the corrosion-resistant water coil, my sense
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1 --

2 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, sir?

3 MR. SACHS: -- is that you all just use a

4 cupronickel one in an aggressive environment and that

5 we don't see coated condenser coils at all because

6 it's a tube in tube usually still.

7 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. It's tube in tube. And

8 the application for a corrosion-resistant water coil,

9 the cupronickel that you mentioned, which is that is

10 the industry corrosion-resistant coil, that is for

11 open loops, where there is no control over the water

12 that is entering the unit, the quality of the water,

13 so to speak.

14 Now, you know, in this situation, we're

15 talking about water loop heat pump, which is a closed16 loop application, your boiler tower-type situation.

17 And the bottom line is it's a situation where I would

18 say -- I don't want to say "never," but probably if it

19 ever happens, it's a fraction of a percent. You know,

20 I would literally say it never happens.

21 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, Wes.
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1 MR. SACHS: So we just want to strike that

2 bullet, I think.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: That was easy. Electric

5 heaters.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Electric heaters can be an

7 option and be mounted in the discharge. And because

8 it's a smaller cabinet, it can have a little bit of an

9 impact on the static pressure on the fan members.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So we test electric resistance

11 heaters for the other HVAC equipment. Why do we not

12 here?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: You would not be testing

14 electric resistance heaters in a heat pump in those

15 applications.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is supplemental heat

18 over. Then, what the heat pump can do at certain

19 conditions, --

20 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: -- certain ambient conditions.

22 So these do add extra pressure drop in the system, but
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1 you are not doing that in commercial HVAC.

2 MR. WOSTAL: Right. This is Wes. I agree

3 with that. And, actually, I don't know about the rest

4 of the industry, but the heat kits that we sell that

5 would go into this application, they cannot even be

6 mounted in our unit. It's a Stab-in duct heater. So

7 I don't even know how we would test this.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I guess I'm

9 having trouble thinking about heating application in a

10 commercial context, where I might want that with a

11 boiler sitting in that train. Certainly we see it in

12 residential.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: You get some cold zones and,

14 you know, depending upon how much glass there is in

15 the cold zone and stuff like that. So it's kind of a

16 spot thing. It is not used a lot. Ours do attach to

17 our unit. But he's right. The test setup would be a

18 question. I'm not quite sure how you even do it in

19 the test procedure.

20 MR. SACHS: Well, Jill, do you all

21 occasionally install these as reheat for additional

22 dehumidification?
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1 MR. JOHNSON: No, not --

2 MR. WOSTAL: Well, that would be a terrible

3 way to do it.

4 MR. SACHS: Well, I understand that, but the

5 designers have idiosyncrasies.

6 MR. JOHNSON: No. It's totally supplemental

7 heat.

8 MR. SACHS: Good. Thank you. Thank you

9 very much.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, very good point. For

11 that reheat application, 90.1 would not be very

12 favorable to that.

13 MALE SPEAKER: It's not recycled heat.

14 MR. SACHS: So is 90.1, past 99, applicable

15 in Alabama?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Not even in Tennessee. I

17 mean, my suggestion would be that you don't test or

18 order these with them.

19 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I would agree

20 with that.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: And partly because I -- I am

22 not an expert on this test procedure. I haven't
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1 physically seen it set up. But I would think you

2 would have a problem even doing the test procedure

3 with it in there. Wes, what do you think? How could

4 you do the test procedure with an electric heater in

5 there?

6 MR. WOSTAL: I don't know. You know, in our

7 situation, they would literally have to take the

8 heater and, you know, stab it into the duct some

9 distance down from the unit. It is just something

10 especially for a commercial application -- you know,

11 commercial buildings are dominant, are typically

12 cooling- dominated. It is just not something that --

13 it is a very, very small percentage of the time that

14 it happens.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So it sounds like this is a

16 stand-alone external duct heater and it's not part of

17 this unit.

18 MR. JOHNSON: They can be unit-mounted in

19 some

20 --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Ours --

22 MR. WOSTAL: In our situation, that is the
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1 way it is --

2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

3 MR. WOSTAL: -- in ClimateMasters'

4 situation.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So it can be either.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Either/or.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Either/or. Ours is unit8 mounted, but it's unit-mounted on the discharge. So

9 in a way, it's kind of --

10 MR. THARP: Like a bolt-on.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It's a bolt-on,

12 exactly.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We're okay with that.

14 MR. EISNER: Anybody object? Anybody

15 abstain?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you'll just need a unit

17 to test that does not have this that's --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's easy.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Grille options.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, kind of like we have
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1 discussed in other HVAC products, you know, there are

2 specialty architectural grilles that can be added to

3 these. Typically, this is attached to ductwork, but

4 there are some specialty architectural kind of grille

5 options. They do add extra pressure drop, but a unit

6 is --

7 MALE SPEAKER: There are lots of consoles.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- is on a console unit, yes,

9 like, you know, you think about --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in a hotel or classroom.

12 MR. JOHNSON: So, like we discussed before,

13 like in a PTAC, you have a standard grille. And

14 that's what you would want for the test --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you do.

16 MR. JOHNSON: -- because any specialty

17 grille would be a special grille or an option.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Are you all okay with -- I

19 don't remember exactly what language we had for --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: -- the PTAC grilles --

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- but if we can grab that

2 language?

3 MR. WHITWELL: You said, "Test with a

4 standard grille."

5 MS. HOOTMAN: "Test with a standard grille."

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object to this?

8 Any abstain?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Make a note to go back and

10 look at the PTAC language.

11 Condenser water reheat.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Wes, you can talk about

13 condenser water reheat.

14 MR. WOSTAL: It is basically identical to

15 hot gas reheat with the exception that, instead of

16 diverting hot gas from the compressor to a coil that

17 is in the airstream to reheat the air to then

18 basically cause the unit to run longer to dehumidify

19 the air, we are using the valve to divert water from

20 the condenser coil into a coil to reheat the air. So

21 essentially, I think the definition that I sent you

22 guys was it's identical to the hot gas reheat except
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1 for everywhere that the word "refrigerant" was used, I

2 replaced it with water from the condenser or condenser

3 wall. Yes, that's the definition I sent.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Wes, units can be ordered

5 without this; correct?

6 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. Oh, yes. We sell --

7 every product that we offer this as an option is

8 available without it as well.

9 MR. THARP: What percentage of the market

10 buys it?

11 MR. WOSTAL: It's a low percentage. It's I

12 would say one, two percent, something like that.

13 MR. JOHNSON: This should be something that

14 you test without.

15 MR. WOSTAL: My feeling is that it would be

16 treated like the standard hot gas reheat.

17 MR. EISNER: Anybody object? Anybody

18 abstain?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Desuperheaters.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Again, this is Tom Johnson.

21 An option that I think the definition -- you just tie

22 into this issue using -- the heat would normally go
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1 back to the loop to be domestic hot water.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Can you move up towards the

3 table so we can make sure we get you?

4 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again.

5 Desuperheaters, they're an option that you're

6 basically using hot gas off of the compressor or

7 super-heated gas off of the compressor, too, that is

8 directed through another coil to heat domestic water.

9 And it is a residential option for us or that is

10 predominantly where it is sold. We do offer it

11 commercially, but I would say it is -- I'll bet maybe

12 one out of every 1,000 units we sell commercially gets

13 a desuperheater coil in it, just simply because

14 there's not a demand for having supplemental heating

15 of hot water commercially. It's done in other ways.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. This is a one percent

17 option.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So

20 the net effect would be pressure drop and water loop,

21 which

22 --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

2 MR. FLY: -- could be in this calculation

3 that

4 --

5 MR. WOSTAL: Well, there's no pressure drop

6 in the water loop. This is a separate coil.

7 MR. FLY: Oh. This is in the refrigeration

8 system, right?

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

10 MR. WOSTAL: Yes.

11 MR. WHITWELL: It's going to add pressure

12 drop

13 --

14 MR. FLY: Drop in the refrigeration system

15 and

16 --

17 MR. WHITWELL: -- on the high side.

18 MR. FLY: Yes, right.

19 MR. WOSTAL: Essentially, what this is doing

20 is it's acting like an -- it's increasing the surface

21 area of your coaxial heat exchangers is what it's

22 doing.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: But at the rating condition,

2 it's not. You're not getting that benefit.

3 MR. WOSTAL: I'm sorry? I couldn't hear

4 that.

5 MR. WHITWELL: The current test procedure,

6 you wouldn't get that benefit because you don't have

7 water flowing through that as part of --

8 MR. WOSTAL: That is correct. You are

9 correct about that. You are correct.

10 MR. WHITWELL: And this is actually an

11 option that could be applied to an HVAC, a standard

12 HVAC, unit as well. I think that Lennox --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Lennox does.

14 MR. WHITWELL: -- has introduced this.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: He probably doesn't --

16 MR. THARP: He's not here today.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Dave's sitting in for him, but

18 Lennox does have that system.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So do we need to add this

20 stage?

21 MR. WHITWELL: We should add that stage

22 HVAC.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: And it's not covered by one of

2 the other --

3 MR. WHITWELL: No. This is for potable hot

4 water heating or potable water heating.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my question to Harvey,

6 more than anyone, is this an efficient way of heating

7 water relative to other ways?

8 MR. THARP: It's almost like a heat pump

9 water heater.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's free.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: It's like an economizer for --

13 MR. AMRANE: It's free.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. It can boost the

16 efficiency of the air conditioning system when it's

17 running.

18 MR. WOSTAL: The problem is it's only

19 supplemental.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I just wanted --

21 MR. SACHS: As Wes says, it's only

22 supplemental. And the system efficiency is enormously
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1 dependent on what is downstream of that desuperheater

2 in terms of series water tanks or a single water tank.

3 But it's very widely used in residential. But for

4 commercial, I think the reason it's so rare is that

5 the juxtaposition of the heat pump and the water

6 heater for that commercial application in close

7 proximity is pretty rare. So it's just --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

9 MR. WOSTAL: Right.

10 MR. SACHS: It's a bride looking for a

11 groom.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the crossover that

13 you see is -- I know a particular doctor's office. It

14 happens to be in an old house, you know. And so

15 that's the crossover. It's a commercial building now,

16 but it was really built as a house. And it has a

17 geothermal system. And it has --

18 MR. SACHS: But I'll bet that's a single19 phase residential unit.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It may very well be. Yes.

21 MR. WOSTAL: Right.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's the kind of
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1 crossover you see, is just something that gets

2 repurposed as a commercial application.

3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So

4 I've got to ask the combined appliance question.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I knew you were going to ask

6 that.

7 MR. SACHS: We can't keep meeting like this.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a different

9 rulemaking. I'm going to keep answering it the same

10 way.

11 MR. AMRANE: There is a new ASHRAE standard.

12 It just came out.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

14 MR. STEPHENS: And it's just coincidence I'm

15 sitting beside Harvey.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I know.

17 MR. EISNER: Any objections to this

18 language?

19 Any abstentions?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. HVAC. Everybody okay

21 with that vote running for both the HVAC ?

22 Okay.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's all I had for water

2 source.

3 MS. BARHYDT: That's it for water source.

4 Okay.

5 So the list that we have has two features

6 for evaporative cooling. Are there others?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Was this yours, Marshall?

8 MR. HUNT: Yes.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So the 35 and 36 in

10 the yellow highlight?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Are those features for

12 commercial HVAC or were you talking about --

13 MR. THARP: So we're all the way done with

14 the water source here?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're done, yes.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Done with water source.

17 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. So we're ready for 35?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

19 MR. JOHNSON: One thing, on the basic model

20 description on water source --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: -- we want to make one minor

2 change.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Thank you.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Instead of --

5 MR. THARP: Instead of "by air flow," do it

6 "by capacity."

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. I don't know why we had

8 "air flow" in there. It should be "by capacity."

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal rated.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Nominally rated.

11 MR. THARP: Yes.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: That wasn't a "Yes" or "No"

13 question.

14 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again,

15 ClimateMasters. The comparable capacity, some of the

16 other groups have had, you know, within 1,500 Btu,

17 2,000 Btu; some have had the same or comparable

18 nominal capacity. The reason that capacity was left

19 out originally here was because the original DOE

20 definition of a basic model as I read it did not refer

21 to capacity. So when Karim asked our group to put

22 together a definition, this is what we submitted.
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1 Now, after the meetings have started and

2 everybody -- you know, I have seen what everybody else

3 has. I see that everybody else has capacity. So I

4 did figure this would come up. But I would like to

5 have something in there that either has a plus or

6 minus on the capacity or maybe it says, "Nominal

7 capacity." I guess my first question is, what is the

8 definition of nominal in this situation?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Good question.

10 MR. WOSTAL: I've seen that the air source

11 definition has "nominal," same or comparable nominal,

12 I think. And I've seen others have, you know,

13 actually, plus or minus Btu.

14 MS. BARHYDT: My understanding was that --

15 MR. WOSTAL: But I've not seen anywhere

16 where nominal was defined.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding was that -

18 - sorry? What was that, Jill?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm looking up something.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Is it defined in the HRA

21 guides?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: In 343.60, I'm pretty sure it
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1 is, but I don't know that it is in this one.

2 MS. BARHYDT: In 343.60, it is incorporated

3 by reference.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal is described in

5 343.60, but I don't think it is described in this

6 particular test standard.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what you're saying.

8 Okay. Not for the water source.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. This is a minus sign.

10 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. I don't have the

11 standard in front of me, Karim. I don't know if you

12 know off the top of your head if it's in there.

13 MR. AMRANE: No, I don't.

14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

15 MALE SPEAKER: I'm looking at it right now,

16 and it's not.

17 MS. BARHYDT: It's not? What is nominal in

18 343.60?

19 MR. THARP: Actually, nominal is used one

20 time in 343.60, in section 3.8, "Published Ratings."

21 "These values apply to all units of like nominal size

22 and type produced by the manufacturer." So I don't
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1 think it's really nominal.

2 MS. MEYERS: Wikipedia or Webster, I should

3 say in my day. Now it's Wikipedia; right?

4 MR. SACHS: Well, Webster Unabridged talks

5 in terms of being trifling in comparison with the

6 actual value.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's the way I thought of

8 that. Nominally vague.

9 MR. STEPHENS: If you give me about 15

10 minutes, I can make Wikipedia say whatever you want it

11 to.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly.

13 MR. THARP: From the residential side,

14 nominal is usually half-ton sizes.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's the normal

16 reference for nominal. Right.

17 MR. WOSTAL: Could that be repeated? I

18 couldn't quite hear it.

19 MR. THARP: For residential product or less

20 than 65,000 typically, it's every half-ton is a

21 nominal, but I don't know that --

22 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes, ClimateMasters
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1 again. I think of nominal as being a three-ton unit

2 would be 36,000 Btu. And then there would be some

3 plus or minus on that because, you know, you will go

4 out, and you will see a 34,000 Btu unit called a 3-

5 ton, nominal 3-ton, unit, you know, or maybe a 38,000

6 Btu unit is called a nominal 3-ton.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, or a 110,000 --

8 MR. WOSTAL: It's got to be something there

9 --

10 MR. WHITWELL: -- could be a 10-ton.

11 MR. WOSTAL: -- that says it's plus or minus

12 this percentage or these Btu.

13 MR. THARP: It's not uncommon for

14 manufacturers to offer different products in the same

15 efficiency range that are the same nominal ton, but

16 they're really separate basic models. So a

17 manufacturer may have a down and dirty three-ton or a

18 fully featured three-ton and they're separate. HRI

19 would consider them separate basic models.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And so.

21 MR. THARP: So I guess my perception is that

22 DOE's position on some of the others is that we would
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1 sort of open to the manufacturer, as I think was on

2 the boilers, where, you know, you could have a very

3 broad range of capacities that have the same basic

4 model if the manufacturer so chooses to rate that way.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So we would certainly

6 say you could put all of your ten tons into one basic

7 model. You could divide your ten tons into multiple

8 basic models. And that is up to you. I think the

9 question here is, can you get up into what I am going

10 to call an 11-ton range in terms of Btu and still call

11 it a 10-ton? And is it still nominally ten-ton,

12 because that is what you are saying?

13 MR. THARP: But, then, if you're getting

14 that far different, I don't think you are going to

15 have -- I wouldn't consider it a same or comparable

16 compressor.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that is going to be

18 your limiting factor.

19 MR. THARP: Compressor or coils or --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: And the condenser coil

21 surfaces now bigger.

22 MR. THARP: Correct.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If it's the same

3 efficiency rating, --

4 MS. BARHYDT: It's kind of a --

5 MR. WHITWELL: -- which it would have to be,

6 something is changing physically in the --

7 MR. THARP: To get that far off.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So between the tonnages,

9 what do you think the break point -- is there a

10 natural break point where it wouldn't be?

11 MR. THARP: How much? I'm sorry.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Rusty, don't you think it's

13 around 6,000, like you said?

14 MR. THARP: Yes, for the residences, but if

15 you look at the commercial market, it's 7 and a half16 ton, 8 and a half-ton, ten-ton, 12 and a half, 15.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

18 MR. THARP: So that's, you know, 17 and a

19 half, 20.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's around 12,000, but --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Twenty, 25, 30, 35, 40.

22 MR. THARP: Once you get into commercial,
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1 it's at least a ton difference between the typical

2 product offering.

3 MR. FLY: Compressors tend to come in half4 ton, which is what --

5 MR. THARP: Well, until you get in the big

6 commercial stuff, though.

7 MR. FLY: Then there are bigger jumps.

8 MR. THARP: Then there are significantly

9 bigger jumps.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It's only --

11 MR. AMRANE: So if we put nominal capacity,

12 the definition, would it be understood what we are

13 talking about about half a ton or ton or --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I think I take it for granted.

15 MR. THARP: I think my personal opinion is

16 that is okay, again, because of the other parameters

17 listed --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, the coils, whatever.

19 MR. THARP: -- the compressor, the coils,

20 the air-moving system, that if you're getting that far

21 off in capacity, that you will have something else

22 different in the system that is noticeably different,
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1 significantly different. And then if the manufacturer

2 has a 10 and 11 and they are close enough, they design

3 their 11-ton system and they put a 10-ton compressor

4 and it is going to be more efficient if they want to

5 rate it the same, they would have to rate it the same

6 of the lower efficiency of the 11-ton; right?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So do you need "capacity" at

9 all or --

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, do we even need a word

11 in front of "capacity"?

12 MR. THARP: In some of the other ones, we

13 say "same and comparable" once, so "same and

14 comparable" compressor, condensing coil, evaporator

15 coolant.

16 MS. BARHYDT: No. I think he was saying --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, in front of --

18 MS. BARHYDT: -- do we need nominal? Do we

19 need --

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we need the word

21 "nominal" or do we even need it? That's --

22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Wouldn't
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1 you need "nominal" in because if it says "capacity,"

2 that's a number.

3 MR. THARP: What is?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it's the number you have

5 provided; right?

6 MR. THARP: But if you have same or

7 comparable for all, list it once and then list all

8 four components: compressors, condenser coil,

9 evaporator coolant, capacity. That "same or

10 comparable" applies to the capacity also.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Fine. Okay. I'm doing the

13 math in my head with parentheses.

14 MR. THARP: Yes. Right.

15 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. I

16 apologize. I cannot hear everybody. You know, some

17 people, I struggle to hear them.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Wes, the question is

19 whether or not there needs to be a word before

20 "capacity," either nominal, or just leave it the way

21 it is. What do you think?

22 MR. WOSTAL: Well, I would like to have
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1 something there so that, you know, we're not nailed

2 down to a specific capacity. You know, for instance,

3 if you take a package unit versus a split system, you

4 can have the same compressor. You can have the same

5 coaxial heat exchangers. You can have -- everything

6 can be the same. The air coil could literally even be

7 the same coil. And because of the line set and

8 losses, you are going to have a difference in capacity

9 and efficiency.

10 So, you know, that is a situation where to

11 me, it fits as far as all of the components, but the

12 capacities will be different. And I would definitely

13 like to try to cover that. I don't know if the best

14 way to do that is like some of the other sections have

15 done or groups have done where they have got within

16 1,500 - 2,000 Btu or -- again, I don't know exactly

17 what the definition of nominal is. Maybe for this

18 situation, you know, there are definitions of same or

19 comparable. When it comes to coils and so on and

20 compressors, maybe there should be a definition for

21 nominal or is there a definition for same or

22 comparable capacity?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that was Wes. If

2 everybody can -- I know we have all been meeting a

3 whole lot and we know who each other is, but we need

4 to make sure that we are able to get all of the names

5 on the record. So if you can identify yourself before

6 you speak? I know we have gotten out of the habit of

7 doing that.

8 MR. EISNER: Tim Hammond is --

9 MR. WOSTAL: I apologize.

10 MS. BARHYDT: That's okay.

11 MR. EISNER: Tim Hammond is online, wants to

12 talk. Tim, are you there?

13 MR. BROWN: This is Bob Brown, WaterFurnace.

14 MR. EISNER: Hi, Bob.

15 MR. BROWN: I just want to reaffirm what Wes

16 just said. And, you know, some of the other numbers

17 that were used, 1,500 Btu per hour for, say, up to a 4

18 or 5-ton PTAC unit, our particular product will be

19 regulated up to about 135,000 Btu per hour. So

20 roughly something in the 4,000 Btu per hour range or

21 even up to a half-ton would be appropriate, I think,

22 using the same logic there.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So we can add something like

2 that. I think my concern -- and this may sound kind

3 of weird coming from me because I think I might be

4 advocating more your position, but it seems to me like

5 what I am hearing is that you have a certain

6 nomenclature that you typically use to refer to the

7 various tonnages of equipment and that as the units

8 get larger and larger, the breaks between those gets

9 considerably larger. And so I would be hesitant to

10 put something in here that is going to limit you to a

11 certain number of Btu for a range. And, instead, if

12 there is an industry convention of what a normal

13 break- off is for tonnages, I am actually okay with

14 using nominal where it is understood that those are

15 the normal industry breaking points for the various

16 tonnages.

17 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I'm in complete

18 agreement with that.

19 MR. THARP: Three, forty-three, sixty, the

20 AHRI standards have rounding values. Is that what we

21 are referring to, is the rounding?

22 (Chorus of "No.")
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1 MR. THARP: We don't want --

2 MR. WHITWELL: No. We're referring to

3 exactly what you mentioned before on the commercial

4 HVAC, where we go 6 and a half, 7 and a half, 8 and a

5 half, 10, 12 and a half, 15, 17, 20, 25, 30.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: And then they start getting

7 bigger.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Rusty?

9 MR. AMRANE: I think that we can put

10 "nominal" in front of "capacity" as long as it's

11 understood this is what we are talking about.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes. I'm okay with that.

13 Let me put "nominal" in quotes.

14 MR. THARP: And we're not going to --

15 MR. BROWN: This is Bob with WaterFurnace.

16 I'm okay with that change as long as we're kind of

17 adopting the 343.60 definition of nominal and it's

18 possible that through our ISO operations, through our

19 AHRI, that we can possibly put that in as well.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And did we ever get Tim

21 Hammond on the line?

22 MALE SPEAKER: Never did.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: No?

2 MALE SPEAKER: It was Bob, under a different

3 name.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Okay. So we

5 actually need to vote on the definition.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections to this

7 definition?

8 Any abstentions?

9 Okay.

10 MR. HUNT: So while it's coming up, this is

11 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company. And

12 if I could just surge forward on this productive day,

13 basically these three items deal with a lot of things

14 we are seeing out in the hot drive and areas of the

15 country, not the hot and moist, like today is here.

16 And they are very different beasts, let me tell you.

17 So the fundamental thing here is that these

18 have parallels in items we have already discussed.

19 And the bottom line is we want to exempt them from

20 testing.

21 So the first one you have up is

22 indirect/direct evaporative cooling outdoor supply.
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1 This is very much like an economizer. It's an

2 attachment to the system or sometimes it could be

3 inside the box. Fundamentally, it's an option. It is

4 certainly nationwide a very, very small percentage.

5 We want to see these take off a bit more. We have

6 horrible PKW program problems during our heat storms

7 and especially with a nuclear power plant having gone

8 out forever down in Southern California. So we were

9 looking to use the water. And, again, this

10 indirect/direct evaporative cooling cools the air

11 coming into the economizer or is controlled by the

12 economizer. So think of it as an economizer that is

13 turbocharged.

14 Any questions?

15 Okay. And I guess there's not much more to

16 say than it should not be tested. It should not.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone in here make any

18 of these?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Not yet.

20 MR. HUNT: Well, actually, you guys do.

21 It's a lesser cooling challenge unit. Trane has a

22 product.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I know, but I wouldn't

2 say we have a commercially made just yet.

3 MR. HUNT: But we're very pleased that they

4 have responded and we have it going into the field.

5 Also, we will be testing this in our lab coming up. I

6 won't give you a lot more details, but this kind of

7 thing we are discussing today could take a form that

8 is going to last five or ten years. So during that

9 time, we hope that this will become more used in the

10 field, probably something like AAON, you guys, put

11 together.

12 MR. FLY: We don't today or have not today

13 done it, but a lot of the custom manufacturers do do

14 and I have in the past at a former company. We put

15 particularly direct evap cooling into equipment.

16 Minor

17 --

18 MR. HUNT: Yes.

19 MR. FLY: -- does a lot of direct evap

20 cooling.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

22 MR. HUNT: And now indirect is coming on
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1 strong where you don't put moisture in the air.

2 MR. FLY: Right. It's --

3 MR. HUNT: And recent innovations will make

4 that even better. So this is a look forward in

5 allowing us to be proactive, rather than find out

6 later, "Oh, my goodness."

7

8 MR. FLY: There are a number of indirect

9 evap cooler component people out there in the world.

10 And they are being retrofitted in the field.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So can you talk about if you

12 were to test this in the test, what would happen? I

13 mean, what is the impact here?

14 MR. HUNT: Same as economizer resistance to

15 air flow. It is outdoor air. So 343.60 doesn't even

16 have outdoor air. So it could be shipped from the

17 factory, but it's really not covered by those

18 standards and, therefore, can't be tested.

19 MR. AMRANE: But it has a benefit in terms

20 of cooling the air.

21 MR. FLY: Right. And it needs dry air to

22 work.
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1 MR. HUNT: Not today here.

2 MR. FLY: Well, not now. This would not be

3 a good application.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: And the test standard is not

5 dry air.

6 MR. FLY: And the test standard is not dry

7 air. So it's rather uninteresting at 8760.

8 MR. HUNT: Correct.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Is this something that you

10 would have a comparable model without this feature?

11 MR. HUNT: Oh, absolutely.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MR. HUNT: Absolutely. That's true of all

14 of these.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Harvey, any thoughts?

17 MR. SACHS: I'm on board.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

19 MR. SACHS: Yes. This is Harvey. I'm on

20 board.

21 MR. HUNT: So this next one is evaporative

22 free cooling of condenser intake air. Essentially,
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1 you have an air source unit. You are cooling with air

2 on the condenser side. But you could either have a

3 boost with water into media. It has been done poorly

4 in the past, but we're setting standards to get that

5 done correctly now or you could have a whole other --

6 think of it as a media coming before the fins and the

7 coil that could be charged with water or not depending

8 upon the time of day or even the application. And

9 that would be a resistance to air flow through the

10 condenser and, therefore, could have more condenser

11 fan energy use and could require a different condenser

12 fan. But, again, it would be always offered without.

13 And so we have covered the condenser fan issues in

14 other product areas.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And, Marshall,

16 I'm having trouble walking through it in my mind, but

17 my sense is the reason that I would want to do this is

18 that the boost from cooling that condenser is worth a

19 whole lot more than the parasitic from that water

20 skirt.

21 MR. HUNT: Correct.

22 MR. SACHS: Now, so it's a good idea, but
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1 what I haven't worked out is what happens if I am

2 testing at

3 8760?

4 MR. FLY: Well, in this case, 75.

5 MR. SACHS: 95/75. Pardon me.

6 MR. FLY: Right.

7 MR. SACHS: I'll get it down yet. What

8 happens if I'm testing at 95/75? Do I --

9 MR. HUNT: If you had an evaporative

10 effectiveness of 60 percent, 70 percent, then you do

11 the wet vault to dry vault calculation. Can I do that

12 in my head? Twenty times 46 is -- well, so my air

13 coming into the condenser would not be 95. It would

14 be 83 or something.

15 MR. SACHS: So, even under test conditions,

16 I am getting more of a boost from this than the

17 penalty.

18 MR. HUNT: Yes. Of course, you can always

19 make mistakes and not do it correctly, but yes. But

20 you would have water, which none of the test

21 facilities have. You would have a lot more moisture

22 being dumped in the air, which a lot of test
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1 facilities --

2 MR. KLEISS: Yes. The extra humidity that

3 is put in the outdoor room, you do have to dehumidify

4 that and go back to the test condition, which --

5 MR. SACHS: I am convinced, then. Thank

6 you. That is what I needed to hear.

7 MR. KLEISS: Yes. I mean, it's doable, but

8 the way the rooms are built, the outdoor -- to remove

9 that much humidity or adding into the air, to

10 recondition it would be an issue.

11 MR. FLY: By the way, we're going to have

12 the same discussion -- this is Mark Fly with AAON --

13 when we get to vacuum.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

15 MR. HUNT: Yes. In fact, we have set up

16 recently our lab to handle this specific kind of

17 thing. And it's an amazing problem to deal with in the

18 test room. I wouldn't expect anybody to be able to do

19 it. So basically this is somewhat looking ahead, but

20 it is starting to happen much more in our area.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So if this is something that,

22 admittedly, sounds like it would be very difficult to
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1 test, but it sounds like at test conditions, it would

2 actually show a better performance, if somebody wanted

3 to claim that performance game and they were able to

4 set up their lab and they were able to test it, I

5 mean, it seems to me like you would want to claim that

6 benefit.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. The question on

8 the table is whether you are sampling, not whether

9 they could rate it, but whether you would sample it.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So here's my issue. If you

11 rate it as something different and say it's a

12 different basic model and you claim that, I don't want

13 to say, "Well, we're not going to test it" because

14 whole premise behind this is that you're trying to

15 group things into a basic model and we'll say we won't

16 test it. So if you're saying it's a different basic

17 model, we'll test it, but if you say it's the same

18 basic model, then maybe we won't.

19 MR. HUNT: Right.

20 MS. BARHYDT: But I just want to make sure

21 that --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. No. I would agree. I
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1 would agree, Laura.

2 MS. BARHYDT: -- that would be --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I

4 would agree. If we were to put them and likely as it

5 starts to roll out, I would want to still group them

6 and not make a unique model. If it became an option

7 that was significant, I would want to take the effect,

8 you know, the positive effect probably, and have a

9 different basic model. But if I am grouping it

10 together now, I'm probably taking the lowest common

11 denominator.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And so I am probably not

14 taking into effect what the positive effects in

15 efficiency are and taking that bird.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So if I group them, I just

18 don't want that tested.

19 MR. HUNT: So you could say not required but

20 authorized.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Intrinsically, I'm not sure if

22 at that particular point in the test point -- yes, you
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1 will get a benefit for the air coming to the condenser

2 coil is dropped, but you also have pressure drop. You

3 have air flow pressure drop across that condenser. So

4 I just don't know to say what the two offsetting

5 things would do.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. A question

7 for the manufacturers and then a follow-up question

8 for the Department. How large are these systems? Are

9 these the mega systems that are --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: No. They're more in the light

11 commercial range, --

12 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

13 MR. HUNT: -- so more in the 5 to 20 tonnish

14 range.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

16 MR. HUNT: Our big box customers, they're

17 really looking for ways to make the air cooler to use,

18 which a bunch of them will be on the roof. They are

19 looking for ways to make them more efficient. And the

20 more we have manufacturers have the option, again,

21 this is one of the aspects way out there. It's not

22 even a tenth or a hundredth of a percent, but that if
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1 they could happen, then it is an asterisk and they are

2 looking forward, the manufacturers, to be able to have

3 that for their consumption.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. My question to the

5 Department is, if a manufacturer invests heavily in

6 their facilities such that they have better facilities

7 to do this than what the industry-available third

8 party labs do, do you come to the manufacturer to do

9 your audit or do you do your audit at the third party

10 lab?

11 MS. BARHYDT: So we have always said that if

12 there's not a third party lab available to do the

13 test, we will test the manufacturer's labs. And that

14 is already in our regulations.

15 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I

16 was just sitting here thinking about it. Especially

17 since they're smaller type units, I think you could

18 perform a test with it because what we are doing in

19 two of our new facilities that we are building is for

20 small unitary, you have to have a dry coil test, which

21 you have to have dehumidification equipment and extra

22 dehumidification equipment to dry the indoor room.
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1 And what we're doing is we're connecting it so you can

2 dehumidify the outdoor room with the same equipment or

3 the indoor room. So if we are adding extra humidity

4 in the outdoor room, we can use our supplemental

5 dehumidification equipment to remove that as well once

6 it runs through the unit. So we could bring back the

7 humidity back to the normal range. But there needs to

8 be like set points, you know, test conditions set for

9 that type of a test.

10 MR. HUNT: So for now, it is an option that

11 we exclude.

12 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Isn't

13 this covered by whether there is or is not a basic

14 model without this? Because if we want to claim it

15 and we're going to create a new basic model, then

16 there is not another basic model available, I mean, a

17 basic model without this that is the same model. And

18 if we claim it as a separate basic model, then there

19 is.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I just wanted to make

21 sure that that was clear.

22 MR. FLY: I think in my mind, that covers
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1 everything there. Now, these are not new things.

2 They have been around for years as add-ons in the

3 outside.

4 MR. HUNT: Done very poorly.

5 MR. FLY: And some of them brought in the

6 cooldown in six months.

7 MR. HUNT: Yes, terrible. No. It's the wet

8 pad that cools the air temperature to evaporation, but

9 it has to be drawing in the coil. And the bad

10 examples are all the moistures along.

11 MR. FLY: Putting the sprinkler on your

12 condensing unit.

13 MR. HUNT: Yes. You got out and hose down

14 your condensing unit.

15 MR. SACHS: You don't do that every day at

16 your house?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's got a coated coil.

18 MR. SACHS: Real coated coil.

19 MR. HUNT: Go ahead and push to the last one

20 since there starts to be somewhat of a theme here.

21 And this one, we're seeing pressure towards this. And

22 I was looking for some of the rest of the
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1 manufacturers, especially those that tend to do more

2 customized manufacturing. But as we see more and more

3 of the effort to try to make the RTUs work better, one

4 scenario is to change a certain set of, let's say, a

5 field of 20 units, 20 20-ton units, and pick a certain

6 set of those to be dedicated outdoor air systems. And

7 it's not easy, but -- and I'm looking to Mark to see.

8 We may not keep this one, but it is something that

9 people are trying to do. And it could be an option, I

10 guess, but we don't want to test it.

11 MR. FLY: I guess the question is, is it a

12 different product line because there is lots of stuff

13 going on. And ASHRAE and I think AHRI are working on

14 a test standard. And the issue is it's about bringing

15 in outside air and outside air isn't part of the test

16 standard today. So to have a dedicated outdoor air

17 unit that you are going to rate, you need to have

18 different metric levels.

19 MR. HUNT: And we could achieve that with

20 options on an existing RTU or --

21 MR. FLY: Well, a lot of us build rooftop

22 units that can handle 100 percent outside air or some
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1 of us do.

2 MR. HUNT: Yes, but it's an option out there

3 or --

4 MR. FLY: Some of our units can handle -- I

5 don't really treat it as an option, though.

6 MR. HUNT: Okay.

7 MR. FLY: It depends on the outside air I

8 have to treat --

9 MR. HUNT: Okay. Strike that, please.

10 MR. FLY: -- how much I have to do to it.

11 MR. HUNT: So I would like to remove that

12 suggestion. I don't want to have it defeated. Just

13 take it away. Yes. Thank you very much. I just

14 tried to look at it here.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we have two issues:

16 indirect and indirect in evaporative

17 precooling. Are there any objections to the position

18 taken, not testing it?

19 Any abstentions?

20 Okay.

21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

22 just want to ask the Department, are you covering
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1 dedicated outdoor air units? Is that in your scope

2 today? Do you know?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So John?

4 MR. FLY: John?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: When I've asked Ashley this --

6 MR. FLY: I'm not asking you to.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from Trane.

8 I've asked Ashley this. She said that I need to file

9 an exemption from the test procedure.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: A waiver?

11 MS. BARHYDT: A waiver?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: A waiver, yes. She is

13 thinking, but she wanted to talk more about it. And I

14 know it was one of these. And we started getting off

15 into something else. We never got back to that.

16 MR. FLY: I have no doubt in my mind five

17 years from now we will have a product class in ASHRAE

18 for it anyway.

19 MS. DEGITZ: Are there any tests for

20 dedicated

21 --

22 MALE SPEAKER: There is no test data.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Not yet, but there will be.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it would be a waiver

3 right now for sure. Right. We don't have a way to

4 test.

5 MR. HUNT: This is Marshal Hunt, PGE. Later

6 this year, we will have an emerging technology on the

7 test we did on a 5,000 CFM indirect evaporatively

8 cooled dedicated outdoor air system, variable

9 everything. So that should educate and help us know

10 more, but, again, your lab has to be very, very

11 differently put together. We could only go up to

12 5,000 in our lab, lots of work.

13 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes, ClimateMasters.

14 Before we jump into the next group, I would like to

15 bring up something that I know nobody wants to hear,

16 but I would ask that you listen to me for five

17 minutes. And that is a coated coil.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: You had to hear the groan,

19 Wes. You know that.

20 MR. WOSTAL: Actually, I foolishly thought

21 that we were going to go over that in the water source

22 section, but we only went over the things that were
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1 different. So here it goes to try to get this over

2 with.

3 A couple of arguments I would like to make.

4 First, you know, in regards to air source and VRF,

5 some of the arguments that the Department made in

6 favor or the reason that they went ahead and gave the

7 exemption to air source was that they're a custom

8 group. They do a lot of one-offs. And then when VRF

9 was making their case, the Department said that air

10 source had been doing this for many, many years

11 without being tested. And they really, you know,

12 didn't want to jump in to testing it immediately. So

13 they gave them the exemption.

14 Well, water source is the same situation. I

15 have been in this industry for 20 years. And we were

16 doing it when I came into it, and I'm sure we were

17 doing it for 20 years prior to me coming into it. So

18 it's the same situation as air source. We have been

19 doing this for a long time. We also do the customs.

20 We do the one-offs. So I don't really see us as being

21 any different there.

22 In addition, we compete for the same jobs.
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1 It's not a situation where water source is competing

2 against water source and air source against air source

3 and VRF against VRF. When these jobs come up, I'm

4 competing against VRF. I'm competing against air

5 source. So, you know, it should be a level playing

6 field. You know, for me to go in and be in the

7 situation where my unit with this particular option

8 where the coated coil gets tested and my competitor

9 does not, you know that starts getting into situations

10 where, you know, I mean, just putting it as simply as

11 possible, it's unfair. It's almost getting into, you

12 know, unfair trade policy. So there's that situation.

13 In addition, our products, water source

14 products, are literally -- you know, VRF made the

15 argument that they are the same as air source. We are

16 basically the same as well. As a matter of fact, we

17 use air source air handlers in our product that we --

18 in most cases, most water source companies purchase

19 from the air source guide. And in a lot of cases, we

20 make the products for the air source companies, their

21 water source products.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So, Wes, this is --
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1 MR. WOSTAL: So we are basically -- I mean,

2 we would argue that we are the same as them.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Wes, this is Laura.

4 MR. WOSTAL: In other case --

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Wes, let's break in here for

6 - - Wes, Wes, Wes, let's break in for a second.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So I am hoping that nobody is

8 going to complain about this, but it was the

9 Department's understanding when we were voting

10 yesterday that for all of the myriad of things that I

11 realize, I think, at the top of the slide, it probably

12 said, "air source." But our understanding was that

13 those things that we voted on would cover -- and this

14 is going to be a long list -- small commercial

15 packaged air conditioning and heating equipment, air

16 cooled at all Btu; large commercial packaged air

17 conditioning and heating equipment, air cooled; very

18 large commercial packaged air conditioning and heating

19 equipment, air cooled; small commercial packaged air

20 conditioning and heating equipment, water cooled,

21 evaporatively cooled; and water source large

22 commercial packaged air conditioning and heating
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1 equipment, water cooled, evaporatively cooled; and

2 water source very large commercial packaged air

3 conditioning and heating equipment, water cooled,

4 evaporatively cooled; and water source. And I don't

5 think this would say anything different than what I

6 just said.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that you listed

8 VRF there.

9 MS. BARHYDT: No. VRF was voted separately,

10 but we did run the coil for VRF separately.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: When you did the one vote, you

12 were thinking it was all of that?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

15 MR. THARP: So he's covered, basically.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So he is already covered.

17 MR. JOHNSON: So that would be easier to

18 basically say the only things that coated coils come

19 into play on are single packaged vertical and heat

20 taps?

21 MS. BARHYDT: And CRAC.

22 MR. JOHNSON: And CRAC.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to leave again.

2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. This is Wes again. So I

3 am to understand that coated coils will not be tested

4 on everybody but PTAC. And I think there are a couple

5 of others that you had mentioned.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct.

8 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Are you done, Wes?

10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim.

11 MR. WOSTAL: Yes.

12 MR. AMRANE: Again I would like to make the

13 point that I don't think it's fair for the same reason

14 that just Wes stated that we're treating SPVU

15 differently than, for example, the other products.

16 They compete the same way. They should be treated the

17 same. So, for the record, that --

18 MR. WOSTAL: Karim, this is Wes. I have one

19 more point to make, and I will stop. My last point

20 that I was going to make is the Department when you

21 gave air source the exemption, you basically gave 90

22 to 95 percent of the product the exemption. And, you
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1 know, now that you're leaving SPVU in and PTAC in,

2 you're talking about a fraction of a percent of the

3 HVAC industry that you are going to test. So if I put

4 my entire industry hat on and I speak from the

5 standpoint that Karim is, I mean, you basically

6 exempted literally everybody. And it does seem unfair

7 to leave just this very, very small percentage of the

8 market that you are going to test. So I'll shut up.

9 MR. JOHNSON: And I'll second.

10 MR. WOSTAL: You'll second to shut up?

11 MS. BARHYDT: And we voted.

12 MR. WOSTAL: You'll second to shut up or

13 second my point?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Your point.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. We have someone else on

16 line, another Wes. Wes Roan wants to talk.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that was Wes.

18 MALE SPEAKER: A different Wes.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, a different Wes. Sorry.

20 MR. ROAN: This is a different Wes, although

21 I agree totally with Wes' comment and Karim's. And

22 that is exactly the point that I was going to make,
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1 that we're down to a fraction of the market. The

2 SPVU/PTAC are exactly the same kind of applications.

3 And it is not -- there is no rationalization to

4 separate those two products and give a pass to

5 everybody else.

6 MR. SACHS: Okay. Let's remove the pass.

7 MR. EISNER: That's what DOE has said. He's

8 saying let's remove the pass.

9 MS. BARHYDT: We'll test everything. If

10 everybody believes that everything should be treated

11 the same, then we will test everything. But we

12 already voted.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Evaporatively cooled. We did

15 not have a basic model definition that everybody had

16 worked out.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We need Mark from AAON.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. EISNER: Let's take a break.

20 MS. BARHYDT: One short break?

21 MR. EISNER: Yes. Let's take a ten-minute

22 break, then, until 9:35.
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1 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

2 MS. BARHYDT: So I was asked to make an

3 announcement that we are not meeting August 21st and

4 22nd.

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Could you repeat that?

6 MS. BARHYDT: We are not meeting August 21st

7 and 22nd.

8 MR. THARP: But the plans are still for 31st

9 and 1st and 7th and 8th.

10 MS. BARHYDT: That sounds right.

11 MR. EISNER: We have a meeting later in the

12 month, too.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And then there is

14 another one for that --

15 MR. THARP: And then the 26th and the 27th.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. STEPHENS: We are not meeting August

18 21st and 22nd?

19 MR. EISNER: We never were. I don't think

20 it was ever on the calendar. I think that was a

21 mistake.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So that was a mistake in the
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1 first place.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So basic model for

4 evaporatively cooled.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Mark?

6 MR. FLY: Evaporatively cooled condenser.

7 Is this the same as air cooled?

8 MS. BARHYDT: I think we copied and pasted

9 from the water source slide.

10 MR. FLY: It is exactly. You know, I think

11 we are the two that make the product -- this is Mark

12 Fly with AAON -- us and Trane, that are in the room.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Besides some --

14 MR. FLY: And there are a bunch of other

15 people, some other people who aren't here.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- people that are on the

17 team.

18 MR. FLY: But for us and for everyone that I

19 am aware of, we make exactly the same model, air

20 cooled or evaporative cooled, and we just change the

21 condenser part. So it is really exactly the same as

22 the packaged rooftop air cooled equipment in all its
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1 features and options other than the condenser.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So should we just add

3 evaporatively cooled to the slide that says --

4 MR. FLY: Right.

5 MS. BARHYDT: -- "air cooled" and that's --

6 MR. FLY: And the only problem is we

7 really don't have a test procedure. That is the other

8 problem

9 --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Understood.

11 MR. FLY: -- or a test facility for it

12 either.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

14 MR. FLY: I mean, the other issue with

15 evaporative cooled, if you actually got down to the

16 economics of it, it's kind of a 100-ton or above

17 product. So there are very few made below 63 tons

18 because of the cost of making the condenser.

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Mark, are you

20 at least using the condensate for wetting the

21 condenser?

22 MR. FLY: I am on one in my plant, yes.
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1 MR. SACHS: I just want to know about that

2 water efficiency.

3 MR. FLY: Yes. It's a darned good idea.

4 I'll work on it.

5 MR. SACHS: This question brought to you by

6 Tom Lawrence of the University of Georgia.

7 MR. FLY: Okay. I mean, part of the issues

8 are that the temperature of the makeup water has a

9 significant effect on the efficiency. That's one of

10 the test procedure issues that are addressed. And no.

11 We don't have a -- we never included it through 43.60.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And partly why, Karim, it has

13 never been addressed is we all stop at the engineering

14 committee and go, "Nobody can test it. Intertek can't

15 test them."

16 MR. FLY: We don't have a facility.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So we always stop and go,

18 "Well, why are we going to write something that

19 somebody can't test?"

20 MR. SACHS: Well, PGE is going to fix that.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: His is only up to 5,000. These

22 are principally used --
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1 MR. SACHS: Today.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MR. HUNT: Oh, we'll never have a bigger

4 lab. It's only ten tons.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane.

6 I agree with what Mark has said. We principally sell

7 these in our larger sizes that are not covered by

8 federal trust. But we do offer it there. We offer it

9 for sale.

10 MR. FLY: At least today.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: When they get the price, they

12 go, "Never mind." But, you know --

13 MR. AMRANE: So I'm looking at the standard

14 right now. And there is condition for evaporatively

15 cooled profit in 343.60.

16 MR. FLY: We've never certified it.

17 MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's not certified.

18 MR. FLY: Right.

19 MR. AMRANE: That's a different issue. It's

20 covered. That's why --

21 MR. FLY: Well, I --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: All the way up through 760? I
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1 don't think so.

2 MR. AMRANE: I mean, the test procedure

3 is

4 343.60.

5 MR. FLY: There is a condition listed.

6 MR. AMRANE: There is. There is. And

7 that's why there is --

8 MR. FLY: And nobody paid a whole lot of

9 attention to the --

10 MR. AMRANE: Right. It's not certified by

11 AHRI. That's true, I mean, because there is no lab

12 that can do the test --

13 MR. FLY: Of course, we are working on

14 343.60 right now. So maybe there are certain things

15 in there that we need to fix. Now is the time to do

16 it. But the problem is we don't have a lot of test

17 experience because nobody has got anything in place of

18 testing.

19 MR. AMRANE: Right.

20 MR. FLY: Field tests.

21 MS. BARHYDT: That was the air cooled

22 definition.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Does that work? Well,

3 comparable performing evap, but we don't have to put

4 "evap"; right?

5 MR. FLY: No. It's a coil of some kind.

6 And I can't think of anything else in there that would

7 define a basic model. I mean, if you have got a water

8 problem, that doesn't really --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: And that doesn't always have

10 to be applied by us. It doesn't always have to be.

11 MR. FLY: Oh, really? I always apply the

12 water problem.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. FLY: But the truth of the matter is a

15 water problem doesn't --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it doesn't.

17 MR. FLY: I'm happy with that definition.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Ready to vote?

19 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to add

20 anything?

21 Anybody object to this definition? Anybody

22 abstain?
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1 You're okay, Jill?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I'm fine. I was just

3 asking if -- I doubt any of the custom manufacturers -

4 -

5 MR. FLY: Mammoth would probably be the --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Mammoth would be the --

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. This one is support.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Are there any other

9 issues for basic models that we need to go over?

10 Because we have gone through every slide, every note,

11 every handout that we have had over the last month.

12 Anything else?

13 Okay. Certification. Now, we talked about

14 some of this previously. Does anyone need to go back

15 over the basic information about certification or --

16 Okay. For commercial warm air for furnaces,

17 DOE regulations currently require thermal efficiency

18 and --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry. I do have a question,

20 I think.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes?

22 MR. WHITWELL: On the certification general
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1 slide, so based on the discussion that we have had

2 over yesterday, this morning, and prior discussions,

3 and a number of options that are now exempt from

4 testing, we will be submitting basic model number and

5 then with asterisks and some brackets where

6 applicable, like we do today with AHRI?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Probably, although I will say

8 that other people are more familiar with what you

9 submit to AHRI than I am, but --

10 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So let me clarify,

11 then. So if in our model number there is a character

12 that represents a group of options that are exempt

13 from testing, either included in tests or exempt from

14 tests that do not affect the energy efficiency, we can

15 put an asterisk there.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So first, though, I

17 think what you are describing is what we would call

18 the individual model number. And so I will give

19 several different examples --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that was my

21 question. I wanted to differentiate --

22 MS. BARHYDT: -- what I have seen from
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1 different products.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- between basic model number

3 and individual number as far as what we have to

4 submit.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So I am going to use some

6 really simple cases. We have people who make a

7 refrigerator. And it's ABC123. And then it's got 12

8 different variations as to whether it's right door,

9 left door, black, stainless steel, white, all

10 different kinds of options, how many drawers it has.

11 They usually submit for basic model ABC123.

12 For individual model number, they say

13 ABC123********. We have other people, particularly

14 people who private label. They may make ABC123 with

15 all of those asterisks, and they may say, "This is

16 basic model ABC123." But for brand X, it's XBC123

17 with all these asterisks. For model Y, it's YBC123

18 with all of these asterisks. But still in their

19 certification report, they're identified as this is

20 ABC123. So that all of these are really the same

21 basic model, but they provide the brand information

22 separately. And that has to do with the way it
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1 displays on DOE's site, where they don't want to show

2 that brand X is actually exactly the same product as

3 brand Y. And so they break them out that way. But

4 that is up to the manufacturer. And the private

5 labeler is how that is actually provided.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So in our case,

7 probably we have XYZ***123**.

8 MS. BARHYDT: We see a lot of those, too.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So in that case, I

10 guess the question I have is that we may have a

11 situation where the basic model number and the

12 individual model number is the same.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And that's fine.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's entirely up to you.

17 Basic model number is the identifier for you to

18 identify all of these different things are in the same

19 basic model number. And we list them separately so

20 that manufacturers have the option of breaking things

21 out or grouping them together. It's up to you, but

22 having a single basic model number that's tied to
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1 different individual model numbers gives you the

2 flexibility to report it in different ways.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Second question is

4 that in order to properly characterize basic model

5 groups and differentiate between things that have

6 different energy efficiency impact. We may need to

7 use a -- we have generally what our customers would

8 see as an 18- digit model number. And that is in our

9 system in order to -- it goes throughout our IT

10 system. But also for manufacturing purposes, we have

11 a longer model number. And so we may submit. In order

12 to differentiate, we may submit with that longer model

13 number that none of our customers would ever

14 recognize.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Is that okay?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a relationship

20 between the one your customers would recognize and the

21 longer manufacturing one or are they entirely

22 different or --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: There's a relationship. What

2 happens is we have ten digits on the front that are

3 the same. And then there's eight digits that

4 represent the remaining however many digits. And that

5 is something that if you look at that, you cannot

6 figure it out without having a decoder.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We have a configurator,

8 too. I agree.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So if you were to look at

10 that 18-digit model number, you can't tell whether or

11 not it has an economizer, for example.

12 MR. THARP: Unless you have a really good

13 memory.

14 MR. WHITWELL: No. You can't tell.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: No. And I agree. This is

16 Jill from Trane. I agree with Bob. We have the same

17 thing. It's a configuration system such that the first

18 18, like you described, 15 in our case, that doesn't

19 matter. And then the customer tells us, you know,

20 what are the other options they want. And each single

21 time a unique other code for those remaining digits

22 gets sequenced to that. And when it eventually gets
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1 filled, the serial number gets linked to it and

2 everything else. So it's akin to actually the systems

3 that automotives use and aerospace.

4 MR. WHITWELL: With the VIN numbers

5 probably; right?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: With VIN numbers. It is very

7 akin to that.

8 MS. BARHYDT: And what you're asking is

9 whether you could use that for both the basic model

10 and the individual model?

11 MR. WHITWELL: Well, my first question was,

12 see, I think our system is a little different than

13 yours because with our 35-digit model number, you can

14 tell what it, but customers --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but where does that 35-

16 digit ever show up for the customer?

17 MR. WHITWELL: They never see it.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. They never see it.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes because we are going to

21 want some number to be something that a customer would

22 recognize.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Then we cannot differentiate.

2 We can't tell you whether or not it has an economizer

3 on this product, for example. I mean, the customer

4 won't be able to tell that just by looking at that 18-

5 digit model number --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So if when the customer --

7 MR. WHITWELL: -- or what the motor option

8 is.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So when the customer orders

10 something with the 18-digit number --

11 MR. WHITWELL: They don't actually order a

12 model number. They go into our configurator. And

13 they say, "These are the things I want."

14 MS. BARHYDT: "I want these things." Right.

15 MR. WHITWELL: And then it kicks out a model

16 number.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, then what is the 18-

18 digit number used for?

19 MR. WHITWELL: It's used for -- it is what

20 goes on the nameplate.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

22 MR. WHITWELL: It is what goes into our
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1 system as far as what we build, warranty.

2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I've

3 got the same or a similar type system. I have

4 actually one product --

5 MR. WHITWELL: His is probably --

6 MR. FLY: I've got 99 --

7 MR. WHITWELL: -- much more complex than

8 ours.

9 MR. FLY: I've got 99 characters --

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

11 MR. FLY: -- with one of my systems. And

12 yes, I actually show my customer that. It is printed

13 out on our configurator as the model string, but

14 nobody is going to type it back in, by the way.

15 So, you know, what I was thinking about is,

16 you know, as long as I always map -- let's say I have

17 a model number 123F99 and then I've got ABC, which is

18 my listed model to DOE, as long as I always map each

19 one of my individual models on my rating sheet back to

20 the cognizant DOE-listed number, is that sufficient?

21 I mean, you can take that listed number.

22 The problem is it's hard to go backwards. And I think
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1 it is the same problem we all have. You can't take

2 the shorter number that is the listed model, which

3 leaves out all of the extraneous information that may

4 not affect energy at all, and go back to something

5 that has more. You can't go from less to more.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

7 MR. FLY: You can go from more to less.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So is the 18-digit number the

10 number that you provide to AHRI right now?

11 MR. WHITWELL: It's that with asterisks,

12 yes.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MS. BARHYDT: But it's 18 characters long, -

15 -

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- and it has asterisks?

18 MR. FLY: And there's a limit in the AHRI

19 system. I don't remember what it is.

20 MS. BARHYDT: There is a limit there.

21 MR. AMRANE: It's not 99.

22 MR. FLY: It's not 99. And I've got the
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1 important stuff crammed up in the front, but there are

2 lots of asterisks in mine, too.

3 MS. BARHYDT: And so is that 18-character

4 string enough to capture the variations? And I think

5 you were saying --

6 MR. WHITWELL: We can capture it, but you

7 cannot tell what it -- let me see. Let me think about

8 this a minute. I think based on the discussions we

9 have had about what is included and what is not

10 excluded, I think the 18-digit model number will

11 capture. I can use that, and I can do the basic model

12 grouping that will cover what's -- so DOE can pick a

13 unit that's to be tested for that product. But then I

14 have another product that has two alpha characters at

15 the end. And one of the things it can describe is

16 whether or not it has a high efficiency outdoor fan.

17 So in that case, I'm going to say for those last two

18 characters, the first one can be P through V, and the

19 second one is some other character, which means it is

20 going to be a long list of things. So that is a

21 little different case. So I have some different cases

22 depending on which product family I am talking about.
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1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON again.

2 Again, since we never had economizers in here -- and

3 we still don't, but that information, you could order

4 something. That is in the asterisk field. So you

5 can't order one. Our customer can't order one with

6 asterisks in it. You know, if we knew it was --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

8 MR. FLY: If we knew it was going to be --

9 you would rather us not, I understand. Then we could

10 configure it by the rules that we have gone through

11 here.

12 MR. WHITWELL: And DOE could do that, too.

13 I mean, when you order it, you can say, "These are the

14 things I want on it" --

15 MR. FLY: "Things I want."

16 MR. WHITWELL: -- and "These are the things

17 I don't want."

18 MR. FLY: "And these are the things I don't

19 want."

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Right.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MR. FLY: But most of all this equipment is
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1 configured and built to order. And it's so complex

2 that we use computer software with our representative

3 agents or whoever, sometimes even our customers, that

4 can go in there and say, "I pick these things on the

5 Chinese menu. And it bills you the model numbers. It

6 tells you what the rating is and usually tells you

7 what AHRI efficiency level that you have because it

8 knows from what it built which one to map into.

9 MR. THARP: We just need to add a character

10 to our model numbers where D is DOE.

11 MR. SACHS: Laura?

12 MR. FLY: I don't think we're in like --

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think we're

14 trying to feed the animal from the wrong end. And

15 what I am thinking now that I have your attention with

16 my two-by-four is that we ought to start with a

17 functional description of exactly what DOE needs. You

18 need to know what is a basic model and all of the

19 potential things that would be part of that basic

20 model. It seems to me that if you write a functional

21 specification, the manufacturers can accept the

22 obligation to satisfy that specification.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't disagree with you,

2 Harvey, but -- and I realize that the conversation

3 we're having is fairly tedious, but part of our goal

4 is to try to come up with a structure that will have

5 the least amount of impact on their current

6 structures. And yes, while we could say, yes, the

7 manufacturers can come up with something that will

8 work for us, if we can make what they already do work

9 for us, then --

10 MR. SACHS: That is why I am suggesting

11 this, that what I am hearing now is a cacophony of

12 permutations among companies. And it's not organized

13 around your quest. And I really think, but I could be

14 wrong, that devoting a little bit of time to that

15 functional specification definition as an IT question

16 would help us move the conversation along in terms of

17 seeing where they are with respect to that.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So following up on what

19 Harvey said, so the question is, is DOE just

20 interested in understanding what models they need to

21 pick to test or are they interested in understanding

22 in what gets submitted, you know, what all the
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1 different characters mean in detail, and be able to

2 pick out specific things?

3 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. So what we want to be

4 able to do is -- and based on what you have said so

5 far, I am thinking the 18-character is what we are

6 looking for, not the 35-character.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. Thank you.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is that a portable? Get

9 that thing out of here. I don't care how cold it is.

10 MR. WHITWELL: It's a heater. It's a

11 heater.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: My God.

13 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly with AAON.

14 In the spirit of role reversal that Laura started

15 earlier -- and I am going to speak for you, and you

16 tell me if I am wrong. And I'll be happy if you are.

17 But I think you also feel like you want to be able to

18 look at any model in commerce, anything anyone would

19 report to you, and trace it back to a listed model to

20 ensure that the model was listed.

21 MS. BARHYDT: That is correct. But so what

22 Bob was saying was that --
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1 MR. FLY: So we need to provide some way to

2 get from --

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- 18 characters is what he

4 puts on his nameplate.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

6 MR. FLY: Whatever we put on our nameplate

7 to get back to you and say, "I know what model that

8 is." And that's what I was saying. My 18 characters

9 wouldn't even have to be the same 18 characters I use

10 in manufacturing or give to my customer as long as I

11 gave them both --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

13 MR. FLY: -- and both were on the nameplate

14 and there was always something that says, "This model

15 refers to this."

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Both on the nameplate.

17 MR. AMRANE: Let me suggest that, instead of

18 spending too much time here talking about this, that

19 maybe this is something we need to discuss outside of

20 this working group when you start building up your

21 database, that we can see what we are doing today with

22 AHRI directory and see whether this would satisfy your
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1 needs or whether we could change the way things are

2 being reported.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So to the extent that it

4 doesn't capture it or we need to change the way, this

5 is the time to do that, though, through the

6 regulation, not later. And I understand the

7 technological part we can work out, but we have to

8 make sure that we have identified the right pieces of

9 information to collect.

10 MR. AMRANE: So let me suggest that maybe we

11 respond this discussion to maybe even later meetings

12 so that we can figure out something among ourselves

13 that we will work out.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

15 would appreciate the time to think more about this --

16 MR. AMRANE: Right.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

18 MR. STEPHENS: -- and be able to have a more

19 productive conversation.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And now that we have gone
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1 through what is to be tested and what is not to be

2 tested, I think I am okay, but I need some time --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. WHITWELL: -- just to make sure that

5 that 18-digit model number is going to be able to

6 capture everything that you are interested in --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. WHITWELL: -- and understanding that you

9 are not interested in being able to pick a unit from

10 what we submit that has any type of option.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

12 MR. WHITWELL: I understand that you are not

13 interested in that.

14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I

15 think it might be helpful if we brought in some

16 examples from our companies with laying out the part

17 number, where we can then hopefully associate "Okay.

18 These are exempted nomenclatures. And, therefore,

19 they shouldn't be. And these are not exempted

20 nomenclatures. So they shouldn't be included."

21 And maybe this can also be used to build a

22 document, informational document, that DOE could
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1 provide to manufacturers that aren't sitting in this

2 room so that they would be able to fill out your

3 templates properly.

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I

5 tend to agree with you except that is the kind of

6 thing I think would be good to do within AHRI, where

7 we have the members that have these different model

8 number schemes. Then we can come back to this group

9 with a more "Here are the things we looked at. Here

10 is a common approach that would work." Of all the

11 ones I heard, nobody mentioned one that it's not

12 uncommon. It's not the most common. And that's where

13 you have a basic model group to define "Here's what I

14 am buying." Then you go on to the website, as he was

15 talking about, and you make all of these selections.

16 And the number that is generated, it's like a 10 or 12

17 or 20-digit number that tells you everything about

18 that unit, including the customer. So that if a

19 different customer ordered the exact same options,

20 they would have a different model number.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's right.

22 MR. MYERS: So, you know, that is the
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1 configurator concept.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And no portion of that number

3 is the same.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. There is a portion

5 that is the same.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Because it --

7 MR. MYERS: In our case, it's not.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

9 MR. MYERS: It is whatever the next sequence

10 of numbers is. It is the next number that the

11 computer selects for you. That is the configuration

12 for that customer because we want off --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, which is a pure. And I

14 totally understand where you're getting it because

15 that is where ours is built off of.

16 MR. MYERS: Yes. Because we're one off,

17 every unit is treated as unique for that customer.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And we have --

19 MR. MYERS: So we have a unique model

20 number.

21 MR. WHITWELL: We have model numbers like

22 that for our one-off special orders.
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1 MR. MYERS: I haven't figured a way to

2 accommodate this. I think Rheem's suggestion along

3 with getting some samples in, we really need to look

4 at how can we accommodate these, or can we. Is it not

5 possible to accommodate them? Because that is a big

6 change when you are talking about the way you track

7 your sales for many, many years. And then you come in

8 and have a different model number scheme. The ripple

9 out is huge.

10 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. When

11 I was in the custom business, we did that exactly.

12 Actually, the model number was the serial number

13 because it was so unique and everything. You know, we

14 billed anything that you asked us to bill.

15 MR. MYERS: We're not smart enough to do

16 that, but it's a great idea.

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. A couple of

18 comments. One of them is picking up Karim's idea that

19 AHRI members start working on this. I have huge

20 respect for that process, but I think that somehow it

21 has got to be an open process in that there are

22 classes of equipment we are dealing with, such as CRE,
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1 where a significant fraction of product is not AHRI

2 member product.

3 The second thing is it is 2013. And mapping

4 from some arbitrary thing into what you need is not a

5 major database issue. This is a table of numbers.

6 And I think you can achieve your goals within the

7 diversity of manufacturer approaches if it is thought

8 about in terms of what I have called a functional

9 specification. But I don't think I understand clearly

10 what you want.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So basic model, basic

12 model number is the number that the manufacturer wants

13 to use to designate for the Department all of these

14 things are alike that I am selling.

15 MR. SACHS: So we could take that number and

16 -

17 -

18 MS. BARHYDT: And that can be a public

19 number. That can be an internal number. It can be a

20 number that nobody has ever heard of. But it is the

21 way they communicate to the Department. These are all

22 the things that I have stuck into my basic model.
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1 MR. SACHS: Right.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And then in that statement,

3 these are all the things that are in the basic model.

4 These are the individual model numbers. So all of

5 these individual model numbers are in this basic

6 model. And these model numbers should be tied to

7 something that we would see on a nameplate or on sales

8 literature or if we're going out to buy one, if

9 someone else is going out to buy one, everybody can

10 look at that and say, "This is what we're looking at."

11 MR. SACHS: All right. Now, let me ask a

12 question on that. I can interpret this in two ways.

13 One of them is that the nameplate directly reveals the

14 basic model number, your test classification, as it

15 were. The other is that it is linked to something

16 that tells you because if it is just linked, that

17 accommodates everybody from Frank and his serial

18 number equals model number to all of the large

19 production manufacturers.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So let me give you another

21 example. We have one manufacturer who submits his

22 certification report. And he has basic model one,
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1 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, right on

2 down. And then he has all of his individual model

3 numbers, which are what he actually sells.

4 MR. SACHS: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model numbers, he just

6 numbered them.

7 MR. SACHS: I would think about basic model

8 numbers as being grape and apricot. It's a name.

9 It's not even a number.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. It's anything.

11 MR. SACHS: Right. I could be wrong, but I

12 think if we can reduce that to exactly what it is that

13 you are looking for in a way that allows that mapping

14 to be generated, I think my sense is the manufacturers

15 can comply.

16 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. For the one-off

17 manufacturers, they could have a basic model they base

18 their custom model off of. And that would be basic

19 model 1. And then if they have three customers that

20 ask for the special models, they could have individual

21 models listed as ABC under that basic model 1. And if

22 two years later somebody else comes back for a
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1 different model, they could add D under that same

2 basic model.

3 MR. SACHS: Right. It's a dynamic.

4 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe jumping ahead but

5 now this gets into the question about timing because

6 you don't know what you're going to build until you

7 get the order.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, so let's deal with

9 the timing issue separately. I realize that is a huge

10 issue that we have to deal with.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

12 MS. BARHYDT: But let's deal with the timing

13 issue separately. In terms of yes, they could have --

14 go ahead, Ron.

15 MR. SHEBIK: I'm getting feedback. So I

16 hope it's not on your end, but one question is okay.

17 If you are listing under an AEDM, then I assume basic

18 model does not come into play at all. Is that

19 correct?

20 MS. BARHYDT: No. You still have basic

21 models.

22 MR. SHEBIK: So if you are using AEDM, you
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1 still have to also include a basic model number?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And AEDM is how you generate

5 your rating, but you still have basic models.

6 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

7 National. I think just clarifying also between model

8 groups, basic model, and basic models can obviously be

9 multiples within an AEDM. And then you get down from

10 basic model to individual model. To me, I think that

11 is what we are talking about here, really, is the

12 individual model when you go out and want to buy a

13 cabinet or whatever. That is the individual model you

14 are going to be purchasing. CRE as far as I know -- I

15 don't know if Ron would agree with this or not, but I

16 would think it would be the model number that is on

17 the serial plate, the data plate that you -- again,

18 that is what you had identified. That's generally

19 what would be in our literature. That's what you well

20 or friends would go out if somebody had a question

21 about a listing, that that all refers back to a

22 product that they know what it was built with and what
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1 the options are and things.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That's what we --

3 MR. BAUMAN: They are better applicable.

4 Now, let me just finish.

5 One other thing. Now, if you had a customer

6 that bought a two-section refrigerator again but they

7 used a special grille or a nameplate on there, that is

8 still your product. You are selling it under your

9 product. And we know that grille does not have to be

10 tested separately. That is something the manufacturer

11 can control internally. It's still the same model

12 number as far as those other things go. So you don't

13 need a separate individual model. You do not need a

14 separate individual model for that?

15 MS. BARHYDT: No.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So going back to the point

18 Rusty made where you could have basic model 1 with

19 individual model ABCD or ABC and then a few years

20 later somebody wants something slightly different and

21 you come up with D, that's where yes, you can do it

22 that way, but that's where the asterisks come in is if
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1 you certified it as individual model 1*, then if you

2 sell it as 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, you could add 1E, 1F, and

3 you have already certified all of those individual

4 models, then you don't have to submit any new

5 certification at all; whereas, if you just call it A

6 and then you have a B, then you've got to keep adding

7 individual models. And that's where you really reduce

8 your burden using the asterisks.

9 MR. FLY: This is Mark with AAON. So the

10 Department is not looking to have in their possession

11 every individual model number. You just want to be

12 able to trace any individual model number in commerce

13 back to a basic number?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Sort of. So to be clear, if

15 you sell 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7,

16 I don't want all of those, but I do want 11234*.

17 MR. FLY: Or asterisk. You want some way to

18 trace it back.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And it's that

20 traceability.

21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron Shebik. Can
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1 I ask you a question again?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Ron.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Here is what I am

4 looking at. Make sure I am following you guys

5 correctly. What we were looking at for an AEDM would

6 literally lift every single configuration that we

7 build and as a unique configuration would give you the

8 energy consumption for that case. Now, it can be a

9 lot of road. It is going to be a lot of different

10 configurations. But since each one is unique, each

11 one can have its own unique energy number; that is why

12 we are going to go that route. We would have

13 individual model numbers, but we would not link those

14 to a basic model because each one is unique.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So you would not do any

16 grouping at all?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. So in Ron's case, he's

18 saying that he's not doing any grouping. If he makes

19 a million things, he's going to have a million basic

20 models, one AEDM, but you have to certify a million

21 things.

22 MR. SHEBIK: A million individual models,
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1 but everyone is going to have his own unique energy

2 number.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: But there are ways you could

4 group those. You could rate them at the lowest one if

5 they have the same --

6 MS. BARHYDT: If one came out to 340 and

7 another came out to 343 and another one came out to

8 342, why would you not want to just rate them all a

9 345?

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff for National. Now

11 you're talking again about that would be the same

12 basic model but not the same individual model

13 potentially?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. So you'd have an

16 asterisk and say --

17 MR. BAUMAN: Right, right.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- "All ten of these are

19 this basic model. I'm going to rate it at the most

20 consumptive" --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Most conservative, consumptive

22 in that case.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- "model." And then that's

2 the way you do it. And if we pull one to test, you

3 know, the most consumptive one should be the one you

4 rate. And then if it's less consumptive, everything

5 is good.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Or this is Ron again. I'm not

7 saying we couldn't do that, but --

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, it's up to you.

9 MS. BARHYDT: It's entirely up to you.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can do it any way you

11 want, Ron. I mean, every manufacturer, you know, has

12 different reasons for why they would want to group or

13 not group.

14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. That's what I want to

15 make clear because, again, there are different ways.

16 I know from the CRE side and some of our competitors,

17 we have different approaches for moving forward on

18 this.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.

20 MR. SHEBIK: There may be some grouping.

21 There may be some grouping combined with an AEDM. You

22 know, there are different ways of doing this. The
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1 worst case would be going into an individual model

2 would be unique.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So, Ron, if you wanted to make

4 each individual model a different basic model, I think

5 what you would do is you would report your individual

6 model number in both the basic model and the

7 individual model number fields to indicate that you

8 wanted each and every one of those treated as a

9 separate basic model.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Good. You know, I just

11 wanted to point out different -- I know there are

12 several different manufacturers, and we are all going

13 to have different ways of doing this. But I just want

14 to make sure everything is going to be covered.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I just

17 wanted to -- after hearing the talk about mapping, the

18 description that I was giving earlier is a model

19 number scheme that is used in the industry. The

20 description that I was giving earlier is a model

21 number scheme that is used in the industry today and

22 is not amenable to mapping, using our coated/uncoated,
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1 not to discuss the merits of it anymore because that

2 is one we have recently talked about. Since that has

3 been an add-on, imagine your basic model does not

4 include that. The customer can select it, but that

5 becomes a part of what is the randomly generated

6 configuration number. So if you have a coated coil,

7 that's included with model number 20-digit long, which

8 includes the shipping address and everything else that

9 they checked off and filled in when they ordered that

10 product.

11 So I don't have a way to map that randomly

12 generated number, which is the configuration number,

13 which contains the coated coil that they selected.

14 There's no way to map that to anything because the

15 next time it's built with that coated coil, it's going

16 to be a completely different number, randomly

17 generated as a part of the configuration.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, going back to Harvey's

19 point, in this day and age, I mean, the script can be

20 written in such a way that -- I mean, you guys talk

21 about your platforms being your basic model. Why

22 wouldn't the first six or eight characters be locked
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1 in or mapped to what you call your basic model? And

2 then the script would then randomly select digits for

3 the uniqueness. I mean, that could be done.

4 MR. WHITWELL: That possibly could be done,

5 but that means changing manufacturers' model numbering

6 structure, which may or may not be --

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Possible.

8 MR. WHITWELL: -- an easy thing. You're

9 getting into the whole IT system that we used --

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

11 MR. WHITWELL: -- for ordering, invoicing,

12 producing the product.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: A lot of it is --

14 MR. MYERS: That's our entire business. Our

15 business --

16 MR. WHITWELL: It's not an easy thing. I

17 mean, it costs a lot of money.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: A lot of money and years to do

19 it.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Bob, give me a --

21 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I think I don't have

22 the same situation that Frank has there.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Give me a name of one of your

2 lines of products.

3 MR. WHITWELL: So like a 50P?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Like in -- okay. Let's say in

5 -

6 -

7 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, like WEATHERMAKER?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Okay.

10 MS. BARHYDT: In marketing-eze.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Now, WEATHERMAKER, we

12 have different product ranges within that name. We

13 would have a small and medium rooftop WEATHERMAKER.

14 We have large rooftop WEATHERMAKER.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So when we say, "model

16 number," you could say --

17 MR. WHITWELL: I could say a 50TC-010.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, actually, I was

19 trying to get you to go the other way with that. What

20 you said the first time, that you could use your basic

21 model number as the 15-ton WEATHERMAKER whatever. It

22 doesn't have to be a code.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: So basic model number could

2 be a description.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: But if we want the information

4 shared from AHRI and only one point of entry of the

5 information if it's already there in AHRI, it's there

6 like Bob has described with the asterisks.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And, actually, I have

8 another question that may be digging into another

9 thing. So once we submit this information, what is

10 going to be available to people who go into the

11 database because that might be another thing that we

12 want to understand?

13 MS. BARHYDT: So the type, class, product

14 label or brand, basic model, individual model.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So all of that is in

16 there. So --

17 MS. BARHYDT: But not manufacturer, not the

18 status, not --

19 MR. WHITWELL: So I think we would prefer

20 that to be the same as what we have in the AHRI

21 directory so people don't get confused.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Right?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane.

3 You know, the utilities all key off of. Are they

4 going to key off of this to try to figure out what

5 their rebates are?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so I guess that's --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Are they keying off of AHRI,

8 which then gets transferred to CEE?

9 MR. AMRANE: That's why we need to have this

10 discussion

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes, because we're going

12 to have the same information in two different places.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: I really want one point of

14 entry. The more points of entry, the more mistakes

15 happen, we all know, in data.

16 MR. WHITWELL: That's right.

17 MR. MYERS: Yes, certainly. This is Frank

18 Myers again. I agree with that, one point of entry

19 for those manufacturers that are in the AHRI program,

20 though.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, right.

22 MR. MYERS: But for those of us that don't
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1 currently participate in the AHRI program --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Then your one point of entry

3 is here.

4 MR. MYERS: And if we do part of -- can we

5 get in -- is it reasonable for us to get in -- are we

6 going to generate a brand new business enterprise

7 resource- planning system and change our model number

8 system so that we lose track of all our historical

9 stuff since we're not doing it the same way?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

11 MR. MYERS: It's a huge deal to change

12 models, I mean, business changing.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: No question.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And that's why we have

15 our 18-digit model number, instead of the 35-digit --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

17 MR. WHITWELL: -- as an historic thing.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

19 MR. SACHS: I think John slightly

20 mischaracterized what I'm suggesting with mapping,

21 that I would put on the manufacturers the

22 responsibility of whatever that individual model
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1 number is on the nameplate has a translation through a

2 database into what basic model it is assigned to. It

3 can be Frank's arbitrary sequential number. It is

4 basically his bill sheet code. It can be Jill's

5 system, can be Mark's 99 characters, but somewhere

6 there exists a translation. So if you want to check a

7 basic model, that's all we need. It does not have to

8 --

9 MS. MEYERS: So, Harvey, this is Karen. Are

10 you saying that needs to be available on a publicly

11 accessible site?

12 MR. SACHS: I did not say that.

13 MR. BALLO: I'll say it.

14 MS. MEYERS: Okay. That's all. That's all.

15 That's a proprietary software issue. And yes. I

16 mean, I have trouble figuring out what's in a carrier

17 unit because I don't have access to their decoder.

18 So, you know, it's hard for us to, you know, figure

19 out what the heck they're doing. So you know, which

20 is good for them, I mean, you know, but it is

21 proprietary-type information. And it also gets into

22 manufacturing processes, too.
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1 MR. SACHS: What I think has to be available

2 to DOE is what model number that code is assigned to.

3 Now, I'm hearing that Tim feels that there ought to be

4 some sort of public interface there, but I don't think

5 I have need to know the decoding function. This gets

6 into sort of one-way codes. What I need to know is,

7 is DOE testing something that is properly assigned to

8 its basic model?

9 MR. AMRANE: We are already submitting

10 information to DOE on the residential product. And

11 that has worked relatively fine. So I think there is

12 a solution to this, I think.

13 MR. SACHS: Yes, I think there is a solution

14 also.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Karim, I agree with you. I

16 think there is a solution. We have to think about

17 that. But I also don't want to compare this to

18 residential.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: There are not configurators in

21 residential.

22 MR. AMRANE: That's true.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Except for the single phase

2 three to five-ton single package product.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you know what I'm

4 getting at, Bob.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the magnitude that

7 we're talking about in the --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Right, absolutely. Right,

9 absolutely.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. In

11 terms of anyone needing to know what that sequential

12 code is, a request to us -- and we can punch it into

13 our system and we can tell -- the difficulty is

14 mapping that over to somebody else's system.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

16 MR. MYERS: That is where the difficulty

17 comes in and would be integrated with our customer

18 database and all the other things that are a part of

19 that. So you would have to map it in such a way

20 you're only pulling out certain parts of it. But that

21 is how we service units. You know, what is your

22 number? We'll look at that multi-digit one-off
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1 sequential number. And we can go back and pull up in

2 the system every detail, --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Building material.

4 MR. MYERS: -- what day it was made --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

7 MR. MYERS: -- the building materials that

8 were used on that specific unit. All of that

9 information is contained in that number.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, with the -- yes.

11 MR. MYERS: But it's sequential.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So what do you have certified

13 with AHRI right now?

14 MR. MYERS: We don't. We don't participate

15 with AHRI.

16 MS. BARHYDT: You don't participate in the

17 certification?

18 MR. MYERS: We are members of AHRI.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. MYERS: But we don't currently. We

21 would love to, but these are just parts of the

22 difficulties for a one-off manufacturer like us to
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1 participate in the program. We would love to. It's

2 difficult. This is one of those areas of difficulty.

3 MR. FLY: This is Mark with AAON again. I

4 guess we've got individual model numbers. So if you

5 had this asterisk string like we've talked about some

6 of us could use, would the basic model and the

7 individual model be the same?

8 MS. BARHYDT: For some people, they are.

9 For some people, they are not.

10 MR. WHITWELL: No.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model number is entirely

12 up to you, whatever you want to call it, just so long

13 as --

14 MR. FLY: But that is your label. I mean,

15 it's the label for you.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It's the label you use

17 to communicate to the Department that all of these

18 things are alike.

19 MR. FLY: But you would have many, many,

20 many individual numbers under a basic model if you can

21 do that grouping. I could have thousands.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. But it may be one line
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1 item with a whole lot of asterisks.

2 MR. FLY: Asterisks, I know, or if you're

3 like Frank and you don't use that kind of system, it

4 could - - if you could root things in a model, it

5 could also be thousands of individual models, which

6 may have a customer code because that's what a system

7 does.

8 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So my

9 understanding is you just want the placeholders, the

10 asterisks, to identify what the variables are. We

11 don't even necessarily have to identify what that

12 variables are to you.

13 MS. BARHYDT: No.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Because that is going

15 to be a difference between reporting to the DOE and

16 reporting to AHRI. AHRI wants to know what each one

17 of those different options is.

18 MS. BARHYDT: No. We don't ask that.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Great.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Laura, is

21 that true even for items that do impact efficiency or

22 do you not worry about it because that is covered by
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1 the basic model?

2 MS. BARHYDT: It's in the basic model. And

3 we have agreed that we won't test certain things. So

4 we wouldn't order it. So it doesn't matter which

5 asterisk it is.

6 MR. MYERS: But if it was something that is

7 covered, would that need to be in the basic model?

8 MS. BARHYDT: I am not sure I understand the

9 question.

10 MR. MYERS: Using the coated coil again, if

11 it was in one of the product groups that you need to

12 know whether it is coated or not, would you need that

13 to be in the basic model?

14 MS. BARHYDT: So you could --

15 MR. MYERS: I could have a basic model that

16 includes that without having that as a designation.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so you could still

18 just have an asterisk. And we might buy one with a

19 coated coil or we might buy one without a coated coil.

20 It can still be an asterisk --

21 MR. MYERS: Okay.

22 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you have grouped them
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1 all together for your rating.

2 MR. MYERS: Yes, because whatever is covered

3 by that basic number, however we choose to structure

4 it, it meets this efficiency or it doesn't.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

6 MR. MYERS: Okay. I gotcha.

7 MR. NESHAN: This is Massoud Neshan with

8 Southern Store Fixtures. I have a question on the

9 test samples, only one in the case of the use of AEDM.

10 We discussed it before, but, I mean, it's one of a

11 kind all the time. There's only one.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

13 MR. NESHAN: There's no AEDM. I have to

14 test this where the sample size would be one.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So no AEDM if there is

16 only one unit. Harvey has advocated vigorously for us

17 to make a regulatory change to make it clear that if

18 you only manufacture one, sample size one. But that

19 is something, we'll have to stick it into the

20 rulemaking. In the regs right now, it's two.

21 MR. EISNER: All right. There's something I

22 need to know before we can go on. One question.
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1 There's a Smartphone app based on the game Scrabble.

2 Will it accept "configurator"? Where do you guys get

3 these words?

4 MALE SPEAKER: It should be in the

5 dictionary because we all use it.

6 MR. SACHS: Neil, the important question is,

7 what would I build configurator out of when I only

8 have seven letters in my stick?

9 MR. EISNER: You get on the end of "ator."

10 MR. WHITWELL: On the end of "configure,"

11 "con."

12 MR. SACHS: "Figurator."

13 MS. BARHYDT: No because you'd have an "e"

14 on there. You'd have to not be --

15 MR. SACHS: "Con" is first.

16 MR. WHITWELL: "Con" and "configure."

17 MR. EISNER: I've still got trouble but good

18 point otherwise.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. "Ator." Yes, you've

20 got to drop the "e."

21 MR. SACHS: I'm certainly more comfortable

22 with "configurator" than "nominal."
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1 MR. EISNER: At least you have an idea what

2 that means.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Any other questions

4 about any of the items on this slide? I know

5 everybody wants to go back and look at their own

6 individual model lines and think about how it would

7 work but --

8 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. When

9 we talked on this slide a few meetings ago, we said

10 that everything from status all the way down would not

11 be public information. And I just want to confirm

12 that. That's what I had written in my notes anyway.

13 MS. BARHYDT: That's --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, the notes --

15 MS. BARHYDT: I never can remember if --

16 MR. WHITWELL: -- that were published up on

17 the SharePoint July 10th had those comments in them:

18 public, public, public.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Because I never can

20 remember if the waivers and the AEDM and exception

21 were online or not. You can go to the website and see

22 whether that's public or not. I just never can
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1 remember if that is up there or not.

2 MS. TUCKER: It's not up on the database,

3 but it's also not listed in the CFR. You don't

4 publish it in the public news.

5 MS. BARHYDT: But even if you do the Excel

6 download, it's not?

7 MS. TUCKER: I don't know. Let's see if

8 it's in here.

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. At the

10 bottom of that list, it looked like it still had did

11 you use an AEDM or not.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And that is something

13 else that we are going to have to change to make it

14 clear which --

15 MR. MYERS: What designation for the AEDM --

16 MS. BARHYDT: -- what AEDM you used.

17 Actually, can you add that note?

18 MS. TUCKER: Which AEDM is used?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Not whether. Just if it

20 is, they will specify which one. If it's not --

21 MS. TUCKER: They're just going to do -- I

22 think they're not going to have the "No" or "Yes"
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1 column. They're still going to have that validator.

2 Is that correct or not?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I guess right now, it's

4 a "Yes" or "No," isn't it? Yes. You're right.

5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Obviously,

6 speaking mapping from an IT point of view, you don't

7 really need "Yes"/"No." If you fill in the AEDM or

8 the number, that's a "Yes."

9 MS. BARHYDT: That's a "Yes," but we need an

10 affirmative "No."

11 MR. MYERS: Okay.

12 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. When we say,

13 "Sample," "Test sample size 1," 1 is not one test.

14 It's one for -- designated whether you are using an

15 AEDM; right?

16 MS. BARHYDT: If only that were true. I

17 mean, we do get certifications where they tested one.

18 And we prosecute those. So I don't want to take one

19 as a yes, I used an AEDM.

20 MR. THARP: Why couldn't we use zero? Why

21 couldn't you say zero equals AEDM for the test column?

22 MS. TUCKER: We could do that. We'd have to
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1 reprogram it.

2 MR. THARP: Test sample size zero equals

3 AEDM. Anything else is how many they actually tested.

4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm okay with that.

5 MR. THARP: And then if there's a zero, then

6 you have to enter something in the which AEDM column.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I'm okay with that.

8 MR. AMRANE: Yes, something like that.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That works. Did you get

10 all of that?

11 MS. TUCKER: Zero? Zero right here?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Change it to zero. Make it a

13 letter or something so we remember.

14 MALE SPEAKER: And then that requires entry

15 of the AEDM.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And then what AEDM was used if

17 zero and test sample size. That works. Okay?

18 Anything else on this slide?

19 MR. KLEISS: This is where you're also

20 supposed to put the list of the things that the third

21 party lab will need to know in order to test the

22 units?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. Okay. Okay. Next

2 slide. Commercial warm air furnaces. DOE regs

3 currently require thermal efficiency and maximum rated

4 input capacity. We talked some about what other

5 information should be provided to DOE. And we talked

6 about the PDF with additional testing instructions.

7 There are certain pieces of information DOE

8 needs in order to run the test. And we think that

9 those pieces of information should be required, not

10 optional. And I think that is the list of things that

11 we think we need in order to run the test.

12 MR. WHITWELL: So furnace-type, if it's

13 weatherized or non-weatherized? It's blower motor.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Why do you need to know blower

15 motor?

16 MS. TUCKER: Furnace-type, condensing or

17 non- condensing, modulating, two-stage, single-stage.

18 I just got some feedback from some of the labs.

19 Blower motor.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: You're going to have to speak

21 up over the --

22 MS. TUCKER: Sorry.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- portable air conditioner.

2 MALE SPEAKER: We need sound attenuators for

3 that thing.

4 MS. BARHYDT: That's right.

5 MS. TUCKER: As far as the blower motor --

6 sorry. Speak up more?

7 MS. BARHYDT: More.

8 MS. TUCKER: We're looking for, I guess,

9 whether it's a direct drive, what type of motor it is,

10 so direct drive, multi-speed, VFD.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So this is blower --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Why and why?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm still asking why you need

15 that. You don't need that for the test.

16 MR. WHITWELL: It's not part of the test.

17 MR. AMRANE: Right, not part of the test.

18 MS. TUCKER: Yes. I mean --

19 MR. AMRANE: Who's asking for this?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: We would send that in the PDF

21 notes where you have to put that in, but I don't

22 understand why that needs to be part of the public
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1 information.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, this is public

3 information?

4 MS. TUCKER: It's not necessarily public.

5 MS. BARHYDT: It's not necessarily public.

6 MS. TUCKER: It's not necessarily public.

7 It's just that --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Information that we would

9 collect so that we would task whatever we bought.

10 MS. TUCKER: If this is something we know

11 that we need, you know, we would make it required,

12 rather than optional. The PDF is optional.

13 MR. THARP: You might need speed tap or

14 configuration shift, configuration.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: But, again, those seem to be

16 notes that we send in our PDF documents that are

17 unique about how to operate that unit --

18 MR. THARP: Right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in order to achieve the

20 rating condition.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. So is this --

22 MR. THARP: And it varies enough product to
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1 product that it should be --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: It does.

3 MR. THARP: -- you can't really have one --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: And so in a basic model group,

5 we could have when ones all certified that could be of

6 three different types of blower motors, but the gas

7 furnace is the exact same thing. And we're rating

8 them all. So I don't know how I would put three

9 different types of blower motors. And, yet, I'm

10 grouping them all at a top level for a gas furnace.

11 MR. FLY: At the lowest efficiency.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: At the lowest efficiency.

13 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And

14 I think the purpose of the certification is to see if

15 it's certified to the correct efficiency. So why this

16 other information needs to be provided to DOE is lost

17 on me. I mean, just look at the difference between

18 those two bullets: what we currently provide and what

19 should be provided. And I'm not sure what --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MS. MEYERS: -- other stuff has to do with

22 determining whether the unit was rated at the correct
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1 efficiency.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if I buy a warm air

3 furnace and you have opted not to provide a PDF, can I

4 test it without knowing that information?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. In my

7 experience, which is predominantly residential

8 equipment, the box comes with an installation manual.

9 And it comes with a service manual. And we've got a

10 PDF option. So the question I'm asking is, is

11 commercial stuff shipped with the same kind of

12 information? And does that include everything you're

13 asking for?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Not always.

15 MR. SACHS: Why? I don't think either of us

16 has authored these. So I'm --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Not always.

18 MR. SACHS: You have done more review than I

19 have, and I'm glad it was you.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I am very

21 curious about that. So without revealing anything,

22 just what is an example if you ordered a furnace and
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1 you had no way to determine what --

2 MS. BARHYDT: So we have bought units. And

3 they have had insufficient information in the

4 materials provided for us to test it as rated.

5 There's not enough information there. And so we test

6 it. And yes, we can test it. And I guarantee you

7 we're not going to come out with the rating that the

8 manufacturer wanted, but there are other pieces of

9 information that my understanding is that we can't

10 really test it without knowing those pieces of

11 information. Just it won't work. And that's the

12 technical side that I don't know enough about, but --

13 MR. MYERS: Okay. So you are not able to

14 give an example of --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Not specifics, no.

16 MR. MYERS: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But we have had cases where we

18 have bought products and they do not have sufficient

19 information. And yes, some of it can be optional.

20 And if it's not provided, it's at the manufacturer's

21 risk. But there's some of it that it's my

22 understanding we simply cannot do the test without the
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1 information.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again, PVI.

3 Now that I'm getting a grasp of what you are talking

4 about, might it be possible for the regulation to say,

5 "If this information is not provided with the product,

6 then you have to provide it with your data reporting"?

7 MS. BARHYDT: The problem still is there

8 that we can buy something and not have the information

9 we need to test. And a manufacturer shouldn't have an

10 advantage by not providing the information because

11 then we have no choice but to go to them and ask for

12 information. And then they can tell us whatever they

13 want to tell us. The idea is that that should be

14 provided up front.

15 MR. MYERS: I am with you. I probably

16 wasn't clear based on the response that this

17 information must be provided but one of two ways. It

18 either has to be provided with the piece of equipment

19 so when you go out and buy it, it's there or you have

20 to provide it separately as a part of your report. So

21 the rule is this information must either be with or on

22 the product or you have to turn it in. Then it
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1 wouldn't be a burden for the 99 percent or 95 percent

2 that already provide the information necessary to run

3 the test.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We

5 are going to have an issue when it comes to supply

6 chain availability. Say a current motor isn't

7 available. So we have to make production with a

8 higher efficiency motor for a while; right? If we

9 decide to stay with it, then instead of it being a

10 short-term deviation, then it's a revision to the

11 finished good. So what do we do with the revision?

12 Are we expected to report, "Okay. It's not this motor

13 type. It's this other motor type" and give you the

14 updates along with when the change happened and all

15 that? That is going to be an issue. That is going to

16 be a big issue because that is a tremendous burden on

17 the smaller manufacturers.

18 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. Can

19 you hear me?

20 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

22 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I am looking at the
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1 specific commercial warm air furnace slide. First of

2 all, keep in mind you are only measuring the thermal

3 efficiency. The information about the flu type, I'm

4 not exactly sure what that even is, but you certainly

5 don't need to know whether or not it has a damper to

6 measure thermal efficiency. I don't see the relevancy

7 of either the ignition type or the burner type. And

8 as far as the flu length and diameter, if it's a

9 safety- certified furnace, which I hope they all are,

10 that information has to be provided in the

11 manufacturer's installation instructions. There's no

12 question of it not being available. It has to be

13 there.

14 And the configuration is -- again, I'm not

15 sure why that matters. And I think we have been

16 discussing. At least I heard some part of the

17 question is what difference does it make to thermal

18 efficiency what the blower motor is? This is a way

19 lot more information than is really needed to run a

20 basic thermal efficiency test for a commercial warm

21 air furnace.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree with Frank. I mean, I
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1 am going to give you an example. We have a 250,000

2 Btu input heat exchanger. That heat exchanger is used

3 in a 7 and a half-ton cooling unit, a 10-ton cooling

4 unit, a 12 and a half-ton cooling unit. And it has

5 different blower types. It has three different blower

6 types, blower motors, covering all that range. I only

7 want to certify that 250,000 Btu furnace. I don't

8 want to have to break this all out into individual

9 basic models now so that I can show you a different

10 blower motor type every single time. The test is Btu

11 in, Btu out, calculate your thermal efficiency. That

12 is the test. You don't need any of this other

13 information.

14 And all of that, like he said, the flu type,

15 the flu length, the diameter, is all relevant to

16 somebody installing this in the field. And it has to

17 be there in the IOM. I'm pretty sure that's part of

18 1995 safety.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's what Frank said.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

21 MR. STANONIK: Both 1995 and Z21.47, both of

22 them.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes, both of them. You're

2 right.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it is your view that

4 none of these are necessary to be able to run a test

5 of a commercial warm air furnace?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Input rating is. Thermal

7 efficiency is.

8 MS. BARHYDT: And nothing else?

9 MR. MYERS: Which are the current. This is

10 Frank Myers. Which are the current requirements.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MR. WHITWELL: And fuel type.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. You're right. Fuel

14 type.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Natural gas or oil or --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MS. TUCKER: That would be determinable

20 based on the product class; correct?

21 MR. AMRANE: Right.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's your --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it could be natural gas

2 or propane; right?

3 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

4 MR. MYERS: Those are default to natural

5 gas.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

7 MR. KOJAK: You should erase "Fuel type"

8 underneath "Thermal efficiency."

9 MR. STANONIK: But fuel type is not in the

10 rating plate. Again, that's required by the standard.

11 It has to be. And we list them based on fuel type

12 anyway. I mean, that's --

13 MR. WHITWELL: So we list it as natural gas.

14 Yes. Okay. All right.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But not everybody is a

16 member.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: No. What he's saying, it has

18 to be there for UL 1995 safety standards.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So it has to be in the

20 instructions for the product?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It has to be in the standard.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And the test procedure says
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1 test with natural gas; right? Is that what that --

2 yes.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And we don't need it.

5 MS. TUCKER: So no other information is

6 necessary for them to set up properly? I mean, it's

7 not going to be a question, comeback question?

8 MR. SACHS: Well, I think it's implicit here

9 that the product will shift with its installation and

10 operating manuals. Nobody is going to open the

11 computer box and not find how to turn it on.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, you're going to

13 get a rooftop unit. In the case of our product, you

14 are going to get a whole rooftop unit with the

15 installation and service instructions. That's going

16 to tell you what you need to do.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And, actually, Bob --

18 not necessarily. Think about this. This goes there's

19 no upward end. There's no top tolerance. This

20 commercial furnace goes 225,000 Btu and higher. And

21 it can go all the way up to a million, two million,

22 whatever. There was a way to just build in some of
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1 those big ones just your gas heating section plus an

2 air mover and not have to buy and build the whole

3 cooling system; right, a lot of those units. So we

4 could supply them, just, you know, the air-handling

5 portion of a large rooftop and a furnace, and not have

6 to -- and that would be like one- fourth the expense

7 without having the whole compressor refrigeration

8 system.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So that would be a special

10 order that you would have to do --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to submit to

13 the factory.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And there is nobody

15 who can test them that big. So guess what happens.

16 The same thing happens with AHRI commercial

17 certification program. They come test it at us. And

18 I can tell you that we have done that.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we decided fuel type

20 was not necessary?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MS. BARHYDT: And the input rating and
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1 thermal efficiency are already above. So okay.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Mike, that jibes with

3 what you need to know if you were to test one of

4 these?

5 MR. KOJAK: We don't test for this.

6 MR. MYERS: You don't do this? Okay.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's where I'm getting back

8 to. You're going to run into our problem with

9 testing.

10 MR. AMRANE: Intertek has asked about this?

11 MS. BARHYDT: They said --

12 MR. AMRANE: This is what they need to test?

13 MS. BARHYDT: They said, "These are some

14 things we might want to talk about."

15 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank again. I'm

16 actually looking at the test procedure on my computer.

17 And relative to flu length and diameter, you actually

18 test the furnace with the flu length essentially gets

19 you five and a half inches above the draft or the leaf

20 opening or whatever. So, in fact, again, you don't

21 need to know the flu length. The test procedure

22 actually specifies you have to have this, whatever
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1 length gets you to this five and a half inches above

2 the draft or the leaf opening or whatever outlet. But

3 it's all specified in the procedure.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay.

5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Laura, I

6 think all of those things are probably needed to

7 conduct the test. But it's all either specified in

8 the test or it's provided with the unit with the

9 exception of what you're -- to identify this unit has

10 this many Btu and this thermal efficiency. So it's

11 not that you don't need that to run the test. It's

12 just it's available either from a procedure or from a

13 product.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. Oh, next slide.

15 MR. WHITWELL: But in the case that Jill

16 mentioned, there would probably be some special

17 instructions that the lab might need or whoever is

18 doing the test to test a partial unit; right?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So there there would be

21 some special instructions. That would be a special

22 case.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Nobody can test it on

2 any Btu without coming back to said plant.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: There is no reason that you

5 need to buy --

6 MR. WHITWELL: A hundred thousand-dollar --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: -- a 130-ton unit and all that

8 refrigeration system when all you want to test --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- is the gas furnace and the

11 air --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Yes.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm trying to save the

14 taxpayer money.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Plus the extra space to try

16 to fit that whole unit into the --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, yes. Then you are

18 really running out of --

19 MR. WHITWELL: -- 60-foot-long unit.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- true CA rooms that can

21 handle all of that and handle the gas.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI

2 again. Just to confirm what I believe is in the words

3 here, there is not a mandate to provide the additional

4 instructions. That was --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Optional. Option.

6 MR. MYERS: If you want to help out and help

7 that first test be successful, this is where you do

8 it.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So for commercial

10 package boilers, it's combustion efficiency and

11 maximum rated input capacity. Are there other pieces

12 of information the Department needs to be able to run

13 this test?

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We

15 make commercial commercial package boilers, and this

16 is the same situation as furnace. I think you have --

17 you didn't read off the thermal efficiency, whichever

18 is required. But, yes, if you have that information,

19 then everything is either in a standard or it is

20 provided on the product detail or the instructions.

21 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith. The PDF

22 would be very important for us, because the software -
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1 - sometimes we have to go in there and make software

2 changes to the unit, because they are all software3 controlled now. So a PDF would almost be required for

4 us to do the testing properly.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So what information are you

6 expecting to see in the PDF for you to be able to do

7 the test?

8 MR. SMITH: Well, access to software,

9 downloaded software, we have to download it to

10 communicate, or who to contact to download the

11 software, so we can communicate with the computer on

12 board to make changes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And what kind of changes are

14 you making to the --

15 MR. SMITH: To put out a rate. That's

16 pretty much it.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Typically, you have to enter

18 a service mode in the software, so that it will

19 operate for that length of time.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MR. STEPHENS: Basically, it tells the

22 safety systems everything is okay; you can do this.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. STEPHENS: But the service mode only

3 lasts for so long, typically, so --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so the key issue

5 here is being able to get the software, or where to

6 get the software, so that you can do that.

7 MR. SMITH: It's all proprietary, yeah.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right.

9 MR. STEPHENS: But the provision for the PDF

10 would be acceptable. The only concern there is if

11 it's made public information, then a homeowner could

12 get this information or a business could get this

13 information. And trying to do the right things, they

14 could bypass safeties, which we are required to have.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So what would you be

16 putting in your PDF?

17 MR. STEPHENS: Just the contact information,

18 who to contact, the instructions for how to enter the

19 service mode in the controller.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MR. SMITH: Or maybe some additional -- we

22 have to pull up some of the high temperature
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1 literature, because you're looking at a lot of certain

2 things, so we're going to get those -- where to pull

3 them out at, what to bypass high limit-wise to run the

4 test.

5 MR. KOJAK: Some of the equipment has it all

6 internal, like some of the things that we have seen is

7 there is a remote control and you have to hit a series

8 of buttons in order to access the service mode, which

9 then you can put in the test mode, which then you can,

10 you know, force things to do the things it's not

11 designed to do, but you have to do for tests.

12 So those are the kinds of things that need

13 to be in those PDFs. And every manufacturer is

14 different. There could be dip switches, it can be

15 software, it can be, you know, already reprogramming

16 with this sequence of numbers or whatever -- I mean,

17 everyone does everything a little different. I mean,

18 we don't test boilers either, but I'm talking HVAC

19 stuff.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds to me like the

21 PDF should be required for this product, because there

22 is no way you're going to be able to test it. Is that
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1 okay?

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. If we

3 make the determination that a PDF is required, then I

4 suspect a PDF is going to be required for every

5 product that has those kind of controls, because what

6 you just described would be identical for a furnace if

7 you needed to adjust a control to get a furnace on

8 rate, if you needed to bypass controls to get it on

9 rate.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, the difference I'm

11 hearing is you're saying if you need to do that, you

12 wouldn't have to have this. And what I'm hearing is

13 that for commercial package boilers all of them --

14 MR. MYERS: No.

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- there's no if.

16 MR. MYERS: Not all of them.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay.

18 MR. MYERS: Not all of them.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. SMITH: The higher efficiency is what

21 you have to --

22 MR. KOJAK: The basic stuff is usually easy
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1 to test. When you go to the high efficiencies and

2 there's programs and there's variable speed and things

3 automatically adjusting, that's where you have to have

4 the ability to -- because the testing -- well, at

5 least for HVAC it's steady-state usually except for

6 cyclic testing. But you want the thing to run the

7 same way over a long period of time. But if it's

8 designed a variable capacity blower, you know, it is

9 going to constantly be changing itself, because you're

10 maintaining a condition.

11 So it's designed to reduce the energy

12 consumption by changing itself. You want to bypass

13 that and automatically set it to do the same thing for

14 as long as the test is running.

15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank again. That's not

16 necessarily tied to efficiency. That is tied to

17 control type. We make a condensing boiler that has

18 very rudimentary and simple controls. It's a two

19 stage and it uses -- it doesn't use electronic

20 controls to be able to do that. So you would need

21 that information on that particular condensing boiler,

22 and we make a similar, almost identical water heater.
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1 We would need that.

2 But if our newer models that are condensing

3 are -- just as you say have variable speed motor

4 controllers and modulating, much more sophisticated,

5 we wouldn't have a problem because of all of our

6 products say come to the manufacturer -- you know, the

7 manufacturer has to do setup.

8 MR. KOJAK: Well, it's just the same thing

9 like dual-stage compressor. It could just be Y1, Y2,

10 you know, wire. You know, you energize Y1 and it's

11 one stage. You do Y2; it's the second speed. So that

12 we wouldn't need a program or -- I mean, we don't need

13 -- I mean, we know what we're doing enough to do that.

14 But when it is, you know, program-driven --

15 MR. MYERS: How do you even get into the

16 control?

17 MR. KOJAK: Exactly.

18 MR. MYERS: A lot of manufacturers -- ours

19 are customer built for us, so --

20 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. That's the hard part.

21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

22 guess I want to understand, you want this information
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1 because if you do a test you don't want the lab to

2 contact the manufacturer; right?

3 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent possible, we

4 want to be able to buy it and test it.

5 MR. AMRANE: Without --

6 MS. BARHYDT: And have all of the

7 information we need to actually do it.

8 MR. STEPHENS: Chances are the lab is

9 already going to have the information, because they

10 have already tested our product.

11 MR. KOJAK: That's not true. That's not

12 true.

13 MR. STEPHENS: For the AHRI members.

14 MR. KOJAK: Only if the DOE contracts the

15 same AHRI lab that does the AHRI testing. There's

16 other labs that do not have the AHRI contracts, which

17 can also do the tests, which then they won't have that

18 information or access to it.

19 MR. STEPHENS: But you said in a previous

20 meeting that you -- you said where possible you use

21 the same lab.

22 MR. AMRANE: But what's wrong with the lab
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1 contacting the manufacturer to ask for this kind of

2 information if they need this kind of information?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Again, it's a matter of, to

4 the extent possible, we want to just be able to buy

5 the unit, send it to the lab, and have the lab test

6 it.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And what I'm

8 hearing here and hearing elsewhere in discussions is

9 that increasingly it is just not possible for the

10 advanced products. We would have to change the design

11 philosophy to have some sort of user access to a test

12 book. And I'm not sure that --

13 MS. BARHYDT: We're not advocating that.

14 What we are saying, though, is that we are fine with

15 the idea of manufacturers providing us the information

16 in the PDFs. But the issue is that -- let's say that

17 the manufacturers sitting at the table provide all of

18 that information up front.

19 They said, "We know there's a chance we

20 might get tested. We want to make sure DOE has all

21 the right information. We are going to provide all of

22 this information up front."
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1 Some other company doesn't provide all of

2 the information up front. And we -- the lab calls us,

3 we talk to the lab. Then, we call the company and we

4 talk to the company with the lab, and then the lab

5 goes back and the lab tries to do something and it

6 doesn't work quite right, and then the lab calls us

7 back and we call back the manufacturer. And, believe

8 me, this is not an unrealistic scenario.

9 And meanwhile, we've got a lovely little

10 iterative process going on until the manufacturer

11 figures out a way to make the product meet the

12 standard, because they said, "Oh, we'll tweak this

13 thing a little bit more this way or a little bit more

14 that way, because they are massively testing in-house

15 meanwhile, because believe me this all takes time."

16 And they figured out something that they've

17 never tested before that they have been selling, and

18 they figure out some way to just make it squeak by.

19 It's the kind of thing where if we have companies say

20 up front, "This is how we rated our product; these are

21 all the pieces of information that we use to rate our

22 product" then we can test exactly to what you have
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1 rated.

2 And we understand that that's a concern for

3 you, and we are trying to accommodate that. But we

4 think that you should tell us up front what those are.

5 But if we make it totally optional, then we are

6 actually incentivizing, not providing us the

7 information.

8 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. So

9 going back to the discussion that we had earlier

10 today, so are you wanting a PDF on that 18-digit model

11 number or that 99-digit model number?

12 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure. My --

13 MS. MEYERS: But it could be very different

14 with all of the options on what you have to provide as

15 -- testing is --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. You did say

17 18, right? Because we are only going to test the base

18 model. So I don't want the testing instructions of

19 the 99 digits, because I'm not going to test those

20 options. We have already negotiated that. But what I

21 do need information on is how I'm going to test your

22 base model. And there are definitely units out there
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1 that we can test without additional information, and

2 there are units that we can't.

3 Did I quiet everyone?

4 For joining the webinar?

5 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the difficulty is, I

6 understand that it's different for different

7 manufacturers and different products. But if we say

8 that it's totally optional, then manufacturers who

9 want to try and game the system have every incentive

10 to not provide the information and try and game it for

11 everything it's worth. And our goal is to have

12 everybody on a level playing field.

13 MR. BALLO: I have a question about this.

14 This is Tim Ballo. I mean, isn't it still just as

15 possible that manufacturers could game the system by

16 providing you information in a PDF that would enable

17 the furnace to -- or the product to be tested in a way

18 that would yield a higher rating? I mean, I don't

19 know that a PDF necessarily in providing --

20 MS. BARHYDT: So the information in the PDF

21 has to be within the bounds of the test procedure.

22 And it is supposed to reflect what they use to
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1 actually rate the product.

2 Now, there is flexibility within the test

3 procedures, granted, but it is supposed to be what the

4 manufacturer used to rate the product. And I know you

5 are using AEDMs, but I'm assuming that you're plugging

6 in certain things to come up with your ratings using

7 your AEDMs, and so there are still some assumptions

8 being made. And we're asking for all of that

9 information, so that we can do the tests that you use

10 to rate.

11 And I don't know whether we solved this by

12 requiring a PDF and requiring specific information. I

13 just -- I don't know how to get to a point where we

14 can ensure that we have all of the information to lock

15 down this is really and truly what has been rated and

16 what we can test.

17 I mean, I know that AHRI members provide a

18 huge amount of information to AHRI to make sure AHRI

19 has the information needed to test.

20 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

21 think the problem is that we have such a large

22 difference in the products, just within this category.
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1 I mean, in Frank's case, with PVI, his PDF would be a

2 blank page; right?

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. If we

4 were required to do that, we would have to pre-think

5 all of the potential combinations that you would have,

6 that you would order, and what the possibilities of

7 setup conditions were, so that we could provide that

8 information.

9 Providing the unlock code, you know, that's

10 -- we are very stingy about, because we don't want to

11 follow the hands of the user. But in terms of

12 providing the unlock code and, "Here's how you adjust

13 the variable speed blower to ramp it up to your rate,"

14 those kinds of things, that is relatively simple. But

15 everything that might be needed for every combination

16 --

17 MS. BARHYDT: For your base model.

18 MR. MYERS: Which can cover a lot of

19 territory, which has the lowest number. So it could

20 be a tremendous number of variables, even within that.

21 So getting a comprehensive list, especially one of the

22 rules that was talked about before when we were
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1 discussing this was that if you provide this PDF,

2 providing it gives up your right to the second test.

3 And I know that --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what we agreed

5 to.

6 MR. MYERS: Okay. I certainly thought it

7 was. I know that was discussed at one time. Laura did

8 mention that. What is your belief? If you provide

9 this PDF, you still get to witness the second test?

10 MS. BARHYDT: It wasn't tied to this. There

11 was an agreement that for products that are rated

12 using an AEDM that manufacturers believed needed

13 additional -- would require them to be present, that

14 they were going to be able to mark a certain number of

15 basic models. I'm speaking from recollection here, so

16 -- and that if they selected that model as one of

17 their pre- flagged ones, they would waive their second

18 test. But it wasn't tied to this PDF information; it

19 was tied to the ones that they had flagged.

20 MR. MYERS: Oh. Oh, okay. I made the link.

21 Okay. But going back to my original statement, giving

22 some basics like how you unlock the control, how you
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1 adjust it on rate, those kind of things are a lot of

2 different models and a lot of different techniques.

3 So it's a tremendous amount of work from -- just the

4 time for you to do that, because we are going to have

5 thousands and thousands of models, basic models.

6 So that's an awful lot of basic models that

7 we will have to provide the information for. And we

8 have some basic models that the efficiency is not

9 affected by using control settings, which would be,

10 "If you have this, if you have that, do that." So the

11 workload is high, but that's doable. But to pre-think

12 everything that they might need, that's not really

13 realistic, not for our product line.

14 But, again, we don't expect to have this

15 problem, but that was -- we require that the factory

16 provide a startup before somebody uses the equipment.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Going

18 back to the revision, comment I made earlier, what

19 happens if a manufacturer, say, goes to a completely

20 different control scheme, or decides, okay, we find

21 out homeowners have this code or somebody has this

22 code and we change this code, and we have to rev the
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1 document. Do we just send you a new copy or --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Conceptually, I think the

3 answer is yes. Again, it's -- obviously, the details

4 are still to be worked out. But, conceptually, I

5 think the answer to that is yes. If you just have a

6 new version, then --

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. With

8 the number of models and variations we're talking

9 about, doing it once as you --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

11 MR. MYERS: -- putting that into rev

12 control, not only has --

13 MS. BARHYDT: You made it sound like this

14 was such an easy thing. I thought that, well, sure,

15 if you're already doing all of this version control,

16 then that's easy.

17 MR. STEPHENS: But say you're introducing a

18 new control, right? It's phased in over product

19 lines.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I understand.

21 MR. STEPHENS: Product line 1 uses it on

22 this date; product line 2 uses it --
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1 FEMALE SPEAKER: We hear a baby, Ashley.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, sorry about that.

3 MALE SPEAKER: We all felt the same way.

4 MR. WHITWELL: I thought it was one of us.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: He doesn't like it on

6 speaker.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So no additional

8 information for commercial package boilers other than

9 possibly some kind of a control scheme.

10 MR. AMRANE: I don't know. And this is just

11 me speaking loudly here, but maybe something that we

12 could consider with AHRI is maybe giving you access to

13 the back end of our directory if you need to have

14 access to additional data. I don't know. It's a

15 possibility, if this is what you're looking at. I

16 don't know. Just trying to be --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Can you speak up just a

18 little?

19 MR. AMRANE: I said that, again, maybe an

20 option could be to let DOE have access to the back end

21 of the AHRI directory, which has additional

22 information that would be helpful for DOE testing.
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1 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith. How do we

2 handle European customers that ship the boilers over

3 from overseas that are also DOE --

4 MR. AMRANE: Again, I am talking about the

5 AHRI remember. I mean, for the rest, I mean, I don't

6 know. I mean, I'm just --

7 MS. BARHYDT: But it's exactly that kind of

8 thing. I know you collect a lot of information for

9 your members. And if you gave us that information --

10 but then people who aren't members aren't providing us

11 that information. Do we have a level playing field?

12 Should we be requiring all of the other people to

13 provide us the same sort of information?

14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We

15 are doing that voluntarily with them; right?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

17 MR. STEPHENS: When it goes to the DOE, the

18 word "voluntarily" becomes much more concerning to us.

19 MR. AMRANE: Within AHRI, it's not mandatory

20 either.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It's not mandatory for you

22 either. Okay.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. So --

2 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Of the

3 things that need to be reported here, should fuel and

4 whether it's steam or hot water, which was --

5 MS. BARHYDT: That's the product equipment

6 type, I believe.

7 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Fine. It was part of

8 one of the previous slides.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it is.

10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. That's fine.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Let's try the next one,

12 commercial water heaters. Currently, we collect --

13 well, you can see what we currently collect. I have

14 no idea what you just did.

15 MS. TUCKER: Well, in the last meeting, we

16 took out "measured."

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay.

18 MS. TUCKER: So this is from the last --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. This reflects from the

20 last discussion.

21 MS. TUCKER: Correct.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Did the lab suggest
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1 anything for these?

2 MS. TUCKER: Nope.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Nope? Okay.

4 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank. You've got

5 the water heater one correct.

6 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Frank?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: He said we're right.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. STANONIK: I said the water heater slide

10 is correct. That is the information you need.

11 MS. BARHYDT: And so we'll be able to buy it

12 and test it and no issues.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there another page to

14 this?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

16 MR. STANONIK: Well, assuming you have a

17 laboratory that knows how to put the equipment on

18 rate, but that's a -- that's standard procedure, yeah.

19 It's part of the testing we do.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I have a few notes to add

21 something here.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. You need to add
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1 something from the standards. It's the design.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. The design standards

3 need to be in there.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MS. BARHYDT: It's the water heaters and hot

6 water --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm pulling up the --

8 MS. BARHYDT: -- supply boilers having more

9 than 140 gallons of storage capacity need not meet the

10 standby loss requirement if three different

11 requirements are met -- one, the tank surface area is

12 thermally insulated to R of 12.5 or more, a standing

13 pilot light is not used. And for gas- or oil-fired

14 storage water heaters they have a fire damper or a

15 fan- assisted combustion. Yeah.

16 MR. STANONIK: Those are essentially

17 declarations.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But they're not -- the

19 declaration is not reflected in here right now.

20 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right.

21 MS. TUCKER: It's currently not implicit,

22 right. It would be added, so I'll put --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

2 MS. TUCKER: -- on there.

3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We

4 couldn't look at this slide without me, once again --

5 MS. BARHYDT: I know. You don't like the

6 fact that we have a standard that has an R value in

7 it.

8 MR. KLEISS: Or a measured storage volume

9 with no method of protection.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are test procedure

11 issues.

12 MR. THARP: You've got to ask for a waiver.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't need a waiver from

14 something that there is no method of test; right?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. There's no method

16 specified.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just -- DOE just had --

18 you're pointing out that DOE has a problem in their

19 regs.

20 MS. MEYERS: So should the word "measured"

21 be removed?

22 MS. BARHYDT: That is the reg, however. The
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1 standard is based on measure.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can't remove that.

3 MS. BARHYDT: The test procedure just

4 doesn't specify how exactly you are supposed to

5 measure it.

6 MR. KLEISS: And there's no efficiency

7 metric tied to the storage. There is no standby heat

8 loss measurement. There is nothing --

9 MS. MEYERS: But you say you still have to

10 do that, because that's what the reg says?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Hold on. I have to get my reg

12 book back.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. So we will only collect

14 that information for where there is an efficiency

15 metric tied to that information. So, Jeff, you are

16 making two different points. We've gone through those

17 over email. So one of them we can correct; the other

18 one, it's part of our standard.

19 MR. KLEISS: I agree, and I appreciate the

20 conversation we've had. Don't want to pass by a slide

21 and there to be assumed agreement.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's more of a template
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1 issue than a type of information. We will clarify

2 that, though.

3 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Some of the standards are

5 based on rated, and some of the standards are based on

6 measured, depending on fuel and size.

7 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Electrics are measured,

8 gas and rated.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So the standard is based on

10 measured for some of them, but there's no test

11 procedure for how to measure.

12 MS. MEYERS: So speaking of test procedure,

13 water heater test procedures, Ashley, when might we

14 see that?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's beyond the scope of

16 these negotiations.

17 I'm going to preempt that one.

18 MR. SACHS: Your loyal subjects are waiting.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no doubt. I've

20 gotten a couple of emails this week about it.

21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Just so

22 that there's not a misunderstanding about the --
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1 measuring the volume. I don't think there is anybody

2 in the industry that has a problem in knowing how to

3 measure the volume. There are several methods you can

4 use. You can weigh empty, weigh full. You can measure

5 the volume you are pouring in. You can measure the

6 volume as you pour it out. And there's calculation

7 methods where, in fact, in our unusual geometries and

8 very large sizes the accuracy and scales, and so

9 forth, it is better to do a detailed analysis of every

10 volume displacement, if there's things inside.

11 So we, as an industry, don't have a problem

12 with doing that. So we can talk about -- I don't

13 think that Jeff actually has a problem, but there is

14 no specification that says you do it by weight, you do

15 it by this, or do it by that. But it's not something

16 that the industry is -- or we need a technique to do

17 that. We all know how to do it.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. Why

20 do you -- the unfired storage tanks, why do you need

21 measured storage volume at all?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Where is here? Hold on just a
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1 second.

2 MR. STANONIK: If anything, to identify the

3 unit you could I guess ask for the rated storage

4 volume, because, I mean, again, that's how they are

5 marketed. You buy a 100-gallon unfired storage tank,

6 or an 80-gallon, or whatever, but why do you need the

7 measure?

8 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, hold on just a

9 second. Corey has got my reg book, and I can't look

10 at it.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, he's right. That's

12 the issue that Jeff was pointing out that we know we

13 need to fix.

14 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

15 MS. MEYERS: So are you okay with removing

16 this bullet from this slide?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you can put -

18 - I think there's a question about whether we should

19 put some type of identifier, whether it be rated

20 storage volumes. I don't think it's a bad thing. But

21 it shouldn't be measured. That's correct. And it

22 should only be for electric.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. The only one we need

2 it for is electric. I was going to --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

4 MR. STANONIK: -- go out and say for

5 purposes of identification of the unfired storage

6 tanks, you probably should ask for rated volume

7 because --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that's fine.

9 MR. STANONIK: That's how you distinguish

10 them.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So you all can see the screen.

12 Did the change Corey just made reflect what you all

13 are discussing?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that's right.

15 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can probably put the

19 same thing on the above one.

20 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Correct. Because the

21 electric you do have to do the measured, so we need to

22 stick with --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Electric should be

2 measured.

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. The

4 rated number for storage tanks, really the only reason

5 that that's needed -- and I think it's worthwhile

6 information to put in -- is if the model, which is --

7 has to be compliant is a Model 25. You go, "Oh, I'd

8 like to order one of those 25-gallon units." And it's

9 actually a unit, and it's not our model number but it

10 could be, that's a 2,500-gallon unit, you'd like to be

11 able to see that. So I can see where it would make

12 some sense for product selection.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I think you lost me. So were

14 you asking that we change something here?

15 MR. MYERS: No.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. MYERS: No. There is not a test reason

18 on storage tanks to have rated -- you could strike

19 that whole sentence, but there is some reason --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MR. MYERS: -- to have it for unfired storage

22 tanks. There is nothing in the reg that requires the
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1 volume.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there some kind of

3 tolerance with the volume that is --

4 MR. MYERS: Not in storage tanks.

5 MS. BARHYDT: For the water heaters, is

6 there?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There isn't one.

8 MR. MYERS: Not in the performance, no.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else? Any

10 other changes to these?

11 MS. MEYERS: Well, on those 140 gallons --

12 this is Karen with Rheem. On the 140 gallons and

13 above, is the test required if you are using R12

14 insulation?

15 MS. BARHYDT: You need to have something

16 that shows that it meets.

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What test are you referring

19 to?

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I believe

21 that --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I'll just explain.
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1 For units that have the R volume requirement, while

2 the test -- the method of test isn't actually in the

3 test procedure section, there is a method of test

4 defined in the definitions section. So while the

5 water heater manufacturer may not elect to do an R

6 value test, they do have to have documentation that

7 that R value was determined in accordance with the

8 test design and the definitions. And you can get that

9 from your, you know, foam supplier, or whatever, or

10 insulation supplier.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Along

12 that same line, if we are simply verifying to you that

13 the insulation meets the R value requirement, why do

14 we have to have the storage volume at all? Because

15 that is required under any construction standards.

16 They have a tolerance on that that we would have to be

17 within to have construction safety.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Are you talking about the --

19 MR. MYERS: What product?

20 MR. STEPHENS: Unfired storage tanks.

21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the
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1 discussion Frank -- the other Frank and I just had;

2 right? It would be more just a rated for

3 informational purposes.

4 MR. MYERS: Right. Not part the test.

5 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Part of this is DOE is

6 ultimately going to have to have a certification.

7 They are going to have a list of certified models, and

8 so that's really to identify the models. I mean, how

9 can you distinguish them?

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It will be online.

12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, Frank. Too

13 many Franks being frank. Your model number is going

14 to be included in your basic model list, so the model

15 numbers will already exist. My point earlier is the

16 model number might not be a good place to -- you might

17 get confused as to what volume tank is being ordered

18 if someone was ordering a tank, if DOE was ordering a

19 tank. By giving them the volume it is just helpful,

20 so that they know that model number is going to

21 provide you this rated volume.

22 MR. STEPHENS: I'm pretty sure the price
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1 would show the difference.

2 MR. MYERS: So if there's a desire to take

3 it out, I can understand that. I don't -- personally,

4 I don't have a problem with that being in, even though

5 it's not required for any determination.

6 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So I'm still unclear.

7 This is Karen with Rheem. On water heaters and supply

8 boilers having more than 140 gallons, so you're saying

9 if you certify that it's got R12 or above, you still

10 want to know whether the standing pilot is used --

11 MR. STANONIK: It actually -- this is Frank.

12 It would actually be a standing pilot which is not

13 used.

14 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, okay. That makes sense.

15 MS. TUCKER: Well, it's either yes or no;

16 right? So --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. It's a yes or no

18 question.

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm sorry to be

20 wordsmithing, but I believe the regs prohibit the

21 standing pilot; right?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.
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1 MR. SACHS: So why not frame it so the

2 default is consistent with it?

3 MR. MYERS: I believe that -- this is Frank

4 Myers again. I believe the regs say that you don't

5 have to run a standby loss to have --

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's not --

7 MR. MYERS: -- if you have no standing

8 pilot.

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- absolutely prohibited.

10 MR. MYERS: But if you do have a standing

11 pilot, even if you have R12-1/2 and meet the others,

12 you have to run the standby loss test.

13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you, Frank.

14 Now, is that -- this is Harvey again. Is it

15 a fire damper or a flue damper?

16 MR. STANONIK: Flue damper.

17 MS. BARHYDT: The reg says fire damper.

18 MR. STANONIK: Well, that has to be a typo.

19 The ASHRAE requirement I'm pretty sure is flue damper.

20 MR. MYERS: It is.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I didn't write the footnote.

22 Why is everyone looking at me?
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1 I have never seen that table in my life.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. MYERS: But it is flue damper. There is

4 no such device in the product line.

5 MR. SACHS: Do we need a public meeting

6 process?

7 MS. BARHYDT: I hope not.

8 MR. STEPHENS: We have the "if," but not the

9 "then" on that statement.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Where?

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. For

12 water heaters and hot water supply boilers having more

13 than 140 gallons of storage capacity, whether we list

14 three things, we don't say what happens after that.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no. So it's a -- you make

16 a statement of yes or no, the tank surface area is

17 thermally insulated at 12.5 or more, yes or no; a

18 standing pilot light is used, and yes or no; it has a

19 flue damper or fan-assisted combustion.

20 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

21 MS. BARHYDT: That's it, just yes or no.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually would -- I think
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1 they need to tell you what the R value is. That's a

2 measure. And that has a test standard.

3 MR. MYERS: Ashley, this is --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not a design

5 standard.

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I would

7 disagree with that. It's a threshold when you provide

8 the test data on --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a threshold.

10 MR. MYERS: -- on the --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It says R value.

12 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's an efficiency standard.

14 It says R value.

15 MR. MYERS: But it's being --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Minimum R value required,

17 and we have a test for it.

18 MR. MYERS: Ashley, the test is to confirm

19 what your R value is. Once you have that

20 confirmation, there is no further test, there is no

21 further performance. You simply determine whether or

22 not your R value is above -- is R12-1/2 or more. So
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1 the answer, once you have verified your R value, is,

2 yes, I have more, or, no, I don't. There is no

3 performance involved once you have determined that

4 your R value is accurate.

5 MR. STANONIK: Which product are we talking

6 about, the unfired storage tank or the 140 gallons or

7 larger?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 140.

9 MS. BARHYDT: The 140.

10 MR. STANONIK: Okay. The 140 -- these three

11 criteria would have to all be met, simply give the

12 manufacturer the option of not having to run a standby

13 loss test. And so the criteria simply says as long as

14 you're insulated to at least R12-1/2, and you don't

15 have a pilot, and you have either a flue damper or a

16 fan-assisted combustion, you don't have to run the

17 standby loss test or meet the maximum standby loss

18 criteria. It doesn't really ask for, you know, are

19 you R13 or R16? It simply is, is it at least R12-1/2?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's no different than a

21 minimum thermal insulation value for an unfired hot

22 water storage tank.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Yes.

2 MR. MYERS: Correct.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So, Ashley, I think -

4 -

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So why would you treat them

6 as different?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ashley, I think this should

8 be a yes or no; right? If they -- if it's 12.5 --

9 MR. BALLO: But, I mean, every standard has

10 a minimum or a maximum, and you report the number. So

11 if you make a marketing --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

13 MR. BALLO: -- about the R value, I don't --

14 MR. STANONIK: No, that's not --

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: But this is just to get them

16 out from --

17 MS. MEYERS: This is determined by whether

18 you have to run the standby loss test or not.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is just a criteria to -

20 -

21 MS. MEYERS: This is just a criteria on

22 whether you'd run that test or not.
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1 MR. BALLO: Or whether you meet the standard

2 for standby loss. It's not just the test.

3 MR. MYERS: It's not a test. It's a

4 validation that you meet these requirements. If you

5 meet those requirements, and you don't have the test,

6 you are deemed to have adequate standby loss.

7 MR. BALLO: So you'd meet the standard --

8 are exempt from the standard.

9 MR. MYERS: Right.

10 MR. BALLO: This is an alternative standard.

11 MR. MYERS: You are exempt from the test.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I guess in my mind,

13 to me, I don't care personally if you have R30 or

14 R12.5. Either way you've met the criteria to not run

15 standby.

16 MR. MYERS: We would only -- the care would

17 only come if it's less than 12.5, in which case the no

18 would say you have to run standby.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And then we would --

20 you know, the documentation would support what the

21 actual value is. But for this, we just want to know

22 that you've met the criteria.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: You do or don't have to run

2 the standby test.

3 MR. EISNER: For the more than 140 gallons,

4 do you know to say "rated storage"? Should that be

5 inserted there?

6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sorry. What was that?

7 MR. EISNER: The last bullet --

8 MR. STANONIK: Again, you --

9 MR. EISNER: -- rated storage capacity?

10 MR. STANONIK: -- them as individual yes or

11 no. Okay? But, in fact, all three have to be --

12 MS. BARHYDT: We should probably talk about

13 that.

14 MR. STANONIK: -- met, you know, together.

15 They can't be mixed and matched, so, you know, it may

16 be -- well, however it works out in the form, but

17 basically you have to comply with all three of the

18 criteria.

19 MR. STEPHENS: So what I heard was we are

20 missing a clause in there about not requiring the

21 standby loss. We have the ifs, but not the thens.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So --
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1 MR. STANONIK: We're talking about what is

2 reported to DOE. The law is the law already. That

3 matters not to this.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Basically, we're going to look

5 at this and we're going to check it. There's not

6 something that you have to report other than just the

7 yeses or no's, and then we check whether or not --

8 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But if you made all

9 of those conditions, then you don't have to report the

10 standby loss.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what you're saying.

12 MR. STEPHENS: Right?

13 MS. BARHYDT: So on the previous --

14 MR. STEPHENS: That's why we have those --

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- screen --

16 MR. STEPHENS: So you answer all of these,

17 and then you --

18 MS. BARHYDT: -- you're saying that for --

19 MR. STEPHENS: For the standby loss values.

20 MS. BARHYDT: -- the water heaters and hot

21 water supply boilers having more than 140 gallons,

22 which would either be measured if it's electric or it
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1 would be rated if it's gas or oil, then you do not

2 have to report the standby loss --

3 MR. STEPHENS: Correct.

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- if those other criteria are

5 met.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

7 MS. MEYERS: Correct.

8 MR. STEPHENS: And right now, the way it's

9 written, it doesn't read that.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So on Slide 19, add "measure

11 standby loss not required."

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you put it in the top

13 bullet, like, if these three conditions are met, then

14 no standby --

15 MR. STEPHENS: Yeah. I would say after the

16 comma put "are not required to meet standby loss if

17 these three -- or is it all of these three?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, all three.

19 MR. MYERS: The way it's written now, some

20 have to be no and some have to be yes. You have to --

21 this will tell you whether you have --

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. The second item

2 would have to read "whether no standing pilot is

3 used."

4 MS. TUCKER: But it's a yes or no question.

5 So it's asked in the affirmative. That's --

6 MR. MYERS: Then you have to change your

7 header, "If yes to the following."

8 MR. TUCKER: Ah, right. Sorry.

9 MR. MYERS: That's going to have to be no.

10 MR. TUCKER: You're correct. Thank you.

11 MR. MYERS: So you have to handle it one way

12 or the other.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We have a request for a

14 lunch break.

15 MR. EISNER: Do you want to take lunch now,

16 or go to the next slide?

17 MS. BARHYDT: I heard a really rapid second.

18 MR. SACHS: What is our prognosis for the

19 duration of this meeting?

20 MS. BARHYDT: How many more -- we're just

21 going to keep plugging away at CRE and HVAC

22 certification information.
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1 MR. EISNER: Come back at quarter to 1:00,

2 make that 10 to 1:00.

3 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)

4 MR. EISNER: All right. Can we get started?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We had a request to go

6 back to the screen and look at what is public and not

7 public. And I looked at the website, so I could

8 actually verify it. And I've marked up there which

9 pieces of information are on the website and which

10 pieces are not.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Is this different from

12 before?

13 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure.

14 MS. TUCKER: It is slightly. That OHA stuff

15 was not --

16 MS. BARHYDT: It wasn't listed before?

17 MR. BALLO: So why wouldn't the AEDM be

18 public?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right now, it is not. That is

20 a statement of what is currently public.

21 MS. DANE: But if you use a lot of design

22 information to make your AEDM, I don't think you would
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1 want that public. That is intellectual property. We

2 would -- this is Mary from Traulsen. We wouldn't --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

4 MS. DANE: What I was going to say, I mean,

5 you might use all kinds of different factors to come

6 up with the AEDM. You wouldn't want that made public,

7 because somebody could take that and go through and

8 figure out how you designed your product.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I think what Tim is just

10 saying is whether or not you used an AEDM, not --

11 MS. DANE: Oh. As long as it's a yes/no, I

12 don't care. But why is it important?

13 MR. BALLO: What I actually asking was, if

14 you use AEDM-A, AEDM-B, AEDM-C, why was that

15 sensitive?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MS. DANE: Why is it important?

18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

19 National. I would agree that -- with Mary that that's

20 not part of the issue either. But I think even in the

21 way that you've developed your AEDMs, how many you're

22 using, things are -- that's fine for the Department to
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1 know, but for a competitor that could give them

2 information how your design or how you developed your

3 products and commonalities and things that I don't

4 think are required for public or, you know,

5 consumption, and I think they have factors that, you

6 know, should be kept between the Department and the

7 company.

8 MR. BALLO: So how I guess it could be

9 important is, you know, you have certain consequences

10 that are linked to an AEDM rating being shown to be

11 invalid for a particular AEDM. And the Department is

12 not interested in enforcing that section, so it would

13 still be available to the public to ensure that the

14 AEDMs are -- that an AEDM that has been invalidated or

15 shown incorrect through testing be withdrawn in favor

16 of a different AEDM, or to enforce that process.

17 MS. DANE: I'm confused. So are you saying

18 that the -- if we had one thing disproven and there

19 were 10 more models that were hooked to that, Laura's

20 group wouldn't go after those and the public would

21 have to?

22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. My
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1 concern is the exact opposite. We, as manufacturers,

2 have the liberty to change the AEDM whenever we see

3 fit; right? So if we have a customer out there -- and

4 we all have them as manufacturers, if they're watching

5 -- oh, that AEDM number changed. Oh, that AEDM number

6 changed. They're going to be on the phone calling us

7 up every time anything changes. Why did that change?

8 Why did that change? Why did that change? And we're

9 going to have to have the -- we've going to have to

10 have something photocopied up on the wall in front of

11 us, so every time they call we answer the exact same

12 way. And it's going to cause a lot more hassles to

13 everybody involved than it's going to have any benefit

14 to --

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

16 guess your concern, I mean, if you test a unit and it

17 doesn't meet the standard efficiency that is listed in

18 the DOE website, then you contact DOE, and then DOE

19 will take the appropriate action.

20 MR. BALLO: That's assuming we have an

21 attentive DOE, which --

22 MS. BARHYDT: I'm used to it. He does that
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1 on a regular basis.

2 MR. BALLO: Let me give you another example.

3 So we have riders through Congress that say DOE can't

4 work on lamps, can't work on ceiling fans. What if

5 there's a rider through Congress that says DOE can't

6 enforce, you know, as to a particular product? I'm

7 not saying that all of this is oppressing me. I'm

8 just trying to understand, because I do have some

9 concerns for things that could happen, that could

10 provide a reason why I'd really want to see some of

11 this information.

12 So it's helpful to understand what your

13 concerns are, and I guess I'm okay with this, given

14 that there is -- it sounds like there's --

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'll be a

16 little bit more blunt than Tim. There is a concern

17 and some record that some groups in Congress, were

18 they to be ascended, would want to take apart entire

19 standards programs as well as many other things. It

20 would be collateral damage. It's in the noise.

21 A lot of people watching state legislatures

22 and watching some things that happen in Congress do
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1 get real worried whether or not we trust Laura and

2 John and whoever is above them. Whoever is going to

3 be above them next time is much less certain. It is

4 something that frightens a lot of people in the

5 environmental community, so that may be helpful as

6 context.

7 You all are supposed to be responsive to

8 what the people on the top floor say. We have seen

9 what that means. Just put it back far enough in time

10 to not offend anybody who is active now.

11 One of the first things that our good friend

12 Mr. Gingrich's troops did was to take apart the Office

13 of Technology Assessment, which had been an enormously

14 effective organization in providing requested

15 technical information to Congress, and there were a

16 lot of people who did not want to have objective

17 technical information.

18 So I think that's a context and shouldn't

19 prevent us from -- what's the expression, going about

20 our appointed rounds. But it's a real fear, and I

21 think it's a real fear of reputable manufacturers who

22 depend on the level playing field as well. It's not
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1 DOE as prosecutor, but the DOE role as umpire, umpire

2 with a little bit more authority than AHRI.

3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

4 guess my question is, if we're meeting the efficiency

5 levels, then it's a moot point; right?

6 MR. SACHS: Right.

7 MR. STEPHENS: And if we're not meeting it,

8 your concern is if something happens and the

9 regulations change, and then the manufacturers no

10 longer meet the efficiency levels. Some manufacturers

11 no long meet the efficiency --

12 MR. SACHS: I was in a conversation at lunch

13 at which it came up that there was a class of products

14 that was being sold widely, imported products, that

15 certainly were not meeting either capacity or

16 efficiency standards. And in the years it might take

17 DOE acting on its own to resolve that, the market may

18 have totally shifted to those low-priced commodity

19 products.

20 There are inherent limits on what -- the

21 rate of action DOE can take, so it -- I'm just trying

22 to say that a little bit of paranoia may be healthy,
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1 but that's not to say that I would be able to

2 interpret an AEDM or want to. So I don't know what

3 the answer is, but I just want to help a little bit

4 with context.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. But

6 unregulated product coming in from overseas wouldn't

7 have an AEDM.

8 MR. SACHS: Oh, this is true. But as I say,

9 it's just -- it's context in terms of rates at which

10 enforcement happened. And if you then lay on top of

11 that the fear of an administration that wants to spend

12 all of its time on other things -- and we have seen

13 that at DOE -- a little bit of paranoia happens.

14 So Tim has said he's satisfied, I think. So

15 if he's satisfied, he's a lot better lawyer than I am.

16 I hope.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Are you good?

18 MS. TUCKER: Yep.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. CRE.

20 MS. TUCKER: Did we finish water heaters?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. I thought we had finished

22 water heaters before lunch. Did we not?
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1 MS. TUCKER: I don't think voted, but I

2 don't know if there's --

3 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we've voted on

4 anything so far.

5 MS. TUCKER: Right. But nothing else has

6 been added. Nothing has changed. I just wanted to

7 make sure before we move on.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MS. TUCKER: This we didn't --

10 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sorry.

11 MS. TUCKER: We didn't really add anything,

12 so --

13 MR. EISNER: We did. We added to what else

14 should be submitted.

15 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. But the regs already

16 required it. That doesn't -- this doesn't actually

17 require you to ask for a vote, right, because the regs

18 require it already.

19 MS. BARHYDT: No. We added that. Yeah. As

20 a submission, we added that.

21 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

22 MS. BARHYDT: But we haven't voted on
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1 anything yet, so --

2 MS. TUCKER: Okay. You want to go on?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Okay. So CRE -- so I'm

4 going to introduce a concept when we talk about CRE

5 that we haven't discussed on the prior slides. But if

6 in the context of us talking about CRE you want to go

7 back and revisit some of the other products, we can do

8 that.

9 Current regulations require reporting of

10 maximum daily energy consumption and chilled or frozen

11 compartment value. Well, there are several slides for

12 CREs. So the metrics for CREs are based on

13 consumption of the unit. And we've heard concerns

14 about the reporting volume due to a variety of sizes

15 of the units.

16 One way to reduce reporting burden would be

17 to allow some kind of grouping. We do this for

18 distribution transformers, and we allow it for

19 external power supplies. Those are the only two

20 products where we have this. But it goes from the

21 basic model, which is a group of individual models,

22 and then it actually allows one more level of grouping
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1 beyond that.

2 And we don't normally do this, but we could

3 -- to me, CRE actually is one that somewhat lends

4 itself to this based on my understanding of the way

5 they report it to AHRI. Let's say you had a four

6 foot, eight foot, 12 foot case, you would report your

7 smallest size, your largest size, you would report the

8 consumption of the smallest, the largest, and probably

9 a rate or something.

10 Now, the rate is not our metric, and it is

11 not one of the regulated values. But that would give

12 us some context for everything in between the middle -

13 - from the smallest to the largest. So that would be

14 a possibility to help you reduce your reporting

15 burden. And I think that's what they do for AHRI is

16 they report the --

17 MR. AMRANE: We have very limited reporting.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Very little reporting.

19 MR. AMRANE: Yes. So I -- as far as AHRI.

20 I don't know you got it from, but I don't think that

21 we -- we have something on the directory, but we have

22 very little reporting on CREs. So --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. This is Jeff Bauman from

3 National. I think the products that are on there are

4 closed, not the open type, four foot, five foot.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay.

6 MR. BAUMAN: If Ron is still on the line, he

7 could probably talk to this. I mean, what you're

8 describing to me was you're doing that. That's what I

9 envisioned the AEDM doing and being able to handle it

10 that way.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So the AEDM generates the

12 values.

13 MR. BAUMAN: Correct.

14 MS. BARHYDT: And then the question is, so

15 let's say you have low, medium, and high consumption;

16 four foot, low, medium, high; eight foot, low, medium,

17 high; 12 foot.

18 MR. BAUMAN: In my AEDM.

19 MS. BARHYDT: In your AEDM. And it

20 generates all those various numbers.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh.

22 MS. BARHYDT: To me, it would be odd for you
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1 to group low, low, low together, because you are

2 grouping a four and a 12, and I'm seriously doubting

3 that your 12 is going to meet the standard for a four.

4 So you couldn't report your four at the 12 consumption

5 value.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Right. I do my four, my six,

7 my eight, my 10, my 12.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So you've got all of

9 those.

10 MR. BAUMAN: That would be in a potentially

11 sub-AEDM where -- you know, one AEDM for that --

12 MS. BARHYDT: So don't --

13 MR. BAUMAN: -- low volume.

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- think about the AEDM.

15 Think about how you're actually grouping them for

16 ratings. So --

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So you are not going to be

19 able to group them across the links, because that

20 conceptually isn't going to make any sense, to group a

21 four foot with a 12 foot, in terms of consumption. So

22 low, medium, high consumption, you could just rate
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1 everything at the highest consumption.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If they're --

3 MS. BARHYDT: So you could do a basic model

4 this way.

5 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So then the question is, would

7 you want to be able to do a different kind of grouping

8 where you could do this way instead by length. So my

9 low efficiency is always at TDA per foot with this

10 being the consumption of the four foot --

11 MR. BAUMAN: Per foot per --

12 MS. BARHYDT: -- and the consumption of the

13 12 foot. Would you want to be able to group them that

14 way?

15 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

16 National. We really would not need that. I mean, I

17 can see for some of the people that have brought up

18 open case manufacturers it is --

19 MS. BARHYDT: It's the difference between --

20 if you group them low, medium, high for --

21 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

22 MS. BARHYDT: -- each one -- in my example,
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1 you'd have three basic models.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh.

3 MS. BARHYDT: But if you wanted to say

4 across -- but that's where there's only three links.

5 But then, if you have 12 links and 15 links, you start

6 getting a lot of different ratings. And then you are

7 forced to rate everything at your highest consumption,

8 which you may or may not want to do. So would you

9 want to be able to sort of bring the whole thing

10 within --

11 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron Shebik with

12 Hussmann. You are kind of dropping out, but if I

13 understand what you're saying, you would base

14 everything off the linear foot rating of the case.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Not exactly.

16 MR. SHEBIK: Off the worst case.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So you would report minimum,

18 maximum, and TDA per foot. And so we would expect

19 that anything we selected you have effectively

20 certified that if we multiply that foot length by the

21 TDA you've certified that is the certified

22 consumption.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: So you're saying your

2 consumption -- this is Jeff Bauman from National --

3 your consumption would be per foot also.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And we'd multiply it by the

5 number of feet.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. So you'd rate it as a

7 TDA per foot and --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe I'm not using the right

9 -- maybe TDA per foot is not the right --

10 MR. BAUMAN: Well, that -- your TDA would be

11 your volume or your area -- that is your display area,

12 so that would tell you how physically big your case

13 is.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm not using the

15 right word.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But you would break down your

18 consumption by foot, and you'd be reporting

19 consumption by foot.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Consumption per foot, yeah.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And we could multiply it out.

22 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron with Hussmann

2 again. So to put it into, I guess, terms you can

3 visualize, if you had a four-foot, eight-foot, and 12-

4 foot open display case, remote case, one with no

5 lights, one with fluorescent lights, and one with LED

6 lights, if you were to look at the -- on a per linear

7 foot basis, the BTU hour load per foot with a

8 fluorescent light that would be your worst case, and

9 then you could apply that to all your scenarios.

10 MR. BAUMAN: Or you could rate them as your

11 low, medium, high, or you could rate the three of them

12 separately, but then still your foot -- I think what

13 Laura is talking about is whatever your worst -- if

14 your 12 footer was your worst consumption per foot,

15 you know, when you divide your 12 footer total

16 consumption by the TDA, the area, and you do your four

17 footer and divide it by the area, you have to come up

18 with what the worst one is, and then all of those

19 units lengthwise have to meet that.

20 So you could have to overrate some models

21 if, you know, you didn't have a direct linear

22 relationship, which you're not likely to, but if you
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1 can fit that into something that makes sense and it

2 reduces your burden, I wouldn't have a problem with

3 it. I don't know that everybody would want to use it,

4 but I think it's a good option. And I know there was

5 a lot of concern from people with open cases as far as

6 because all the specialty versions they get into, by

7 the inch, by the half, you know.

8 MR. AMRANE: But you're talking about --

9 what is occurring with AHRI, you're talking about the

10 reporting; right?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

12 MR. AMRANE: But as far as certifying, I

13 mean --

14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, you rated it.

15

16 MR. AMRANE: -- do you have to -- okay. I

17 guess when Ron was talking before he said that he is

18 planning to test, to provide a rating for every

19 possible, I guess, case.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so the question

21 really is for the CRE manufacturers, is this something

22 you would find useful? And I'm just throwing it out
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1 there, and we won't vote on it or just to think about

2 how it may or may not help. And you would still have

3 the option to just certify based on a basic model. It

4 wouldn't be instead of, although the products where we

5 do this we allow the option.

6 So there's one more catch to this, of

7 course.

8 MR. BAUMAN: And Ashley's not even here.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So where we do this --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm here.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you certify based on a

12 basic model, and we find a model non-compliant, it

13 wipes out the whole basic model. If you certify based

14 on this massive grouping, if we find one non15 compliant, it wipes out the whole grouping.

16 MR. BAUMAN: But you could also do -- again,

17 Jeff Bauman from National. You could also do that

18 using AEDMs. If you decided that your fit of your

19 models was so much that you didn't, you could use an

20 AEDM to do a similar type of thing, but it doesn't

21 give you as much -- maybe not give you as much

22 flexibility in the ratings per foot or whatever.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So my expectation is that you

2 are going to be doing this with your AEDM. You are

3 going to be coming up with the numbers from the AEDMs

4 anyway.

5 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a question of relieving

7 the paperwork burden of filling out the --

8 MR. BAUMAN: How many models.

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- form and how much you have

10 to actually fill out to submit to the Department.

11 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

12 MS. DANE: Do you have some kind of slide

13 put together that explains that?

14 MS. BARHYDT: No.

15 Okay. That --

16 MR. BAUMAN: From the discussion -- again,

17 Jeff Bauman from National. In the discussions that

18 we've had, going back to 2010, and some of the real

19 concerns that are -- you know, I think this would be a

20 good tool potentially for some manufacturers. It

21 wouldn't affect us directly, but I think that would

22 fit well with some of -- how the products are, you
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1 know, sold in some cases, especially more specialty

2 items. And I do think it would be a good item for

3 consideration.

4 We can go back and talk to the manufacturers

5 at AHRI group and other groups and see if there is any

6 concerns or objections.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. BAUMAN: I can't -- you know, from the

9 other side of it, I can't really see any objections to

10 it other than somebody in manufacturing may find it

11 works for them and some it doesn't. So I think -- I

12 appreciate the opportunity to even consider that, to

13 make it easier on the --

14 MS. BARHYDT: I will tell you that where we

15 have -- go ahead, Charlie.

16 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron from Hussmann. I

17 don't have an opposition to it. I mean, I think it's

18 a good -- some people may be in favor of that, so I

19 wouldn't oppose it. But as an option --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would be an option.

21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Charlie.
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1 MR. HON: For our manufacturing process,

2 this has no value whatsoever, because we really do not

3 make continuous cases. But I can understand if you're

4 making continuous cases you would have to be grouping

5 them as far as all -- you know, a certain height, so

6 that you have commonality amongst door sizes and

7 things like that, but it would be a viable option for

8 most companies.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So I will make up a

10 hypothetical and so something that will kind of

11 demonstrate the idea, and I'll put that up on the

12 SharePoint. And I can --

13 MS. DANE: Thank you.

14 MR. SHEBIK: Thank you.

15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One more

16 thing on the slide that is actually up on the screen.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

18 MR. HON: There are three different

19 temperature ratings that are involved, not just two.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Can you be more specific?

21 MS. TUCKER: Do you mean this?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think it's pretty -
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1 -

2 MR. HON: Go back one screen.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ice cream is --

4 MR. HON: You don't have ice cream included.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a separate --

6 MR. HON: Which is a low temperature freezer

7 application.

8 MS. BARHYDT: No. Ice cream is on the next

9 slide.

10 Do you see it now? Corey changed the slide.

11 MR. HON: Okay.

12 MR. EISNER: I thought there were three

13 changes we had made on the first slide of this

14 grouping. One, I know we had talked about it, up at

15 the top where we -- this is the one that says self16 contained commercial refrigerators. We had talked

17 about non-transparent solid doors I thought. We had

18 also talked about taking the S off on solids, solid

19 doors. And we had talked about the leading -- the

20 first time you put it up you had the old --

21 MS. TUCKER: I just changed to the old

22 slides.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Because we had taken the

2 word "average" out, too.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I just wanted to check

4 to make sure. So we didn't do the non-transparent,

5 then.

6 MS. TUCKER: No, because solid is --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. By definition, non8 transparent.

9 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I think Harvey didn't like

11 solid.

12 MR. SACHS: No, I didn't.

13 MR. SMITH: It's in the regs, then.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I think it's in the

15 statute.

16 MR. SACHS: Shows what happens when you let

17 legislators do things.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you got those

19 updates?

20 MS. TUCKER: Uh-huh.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is there any other

22 information that the test labs would need universally
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1 to run the test procedure on any of this equipment.

2 MR. HON: There's a mistake on that slide.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Charlie.

4 MR. HON: It's minus 15; it's no longer

5 minus five.

6 MR. WEBER: The operating temperature range

7 starts at minus five. It's the rating temperature

8 that's minus 15. The ice cream freezer started at

9 minus five.

10 MS. TUCKER: So I don't need to change

11 anything; right?

12 MR. WEBER: No, you don't need to change it.

13 MS. TUCKER: Thank you.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense to you,

15 Charlie?

16 MR. HON: I did not hear a word he said.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the operating

18 temperature range is less than or equal to minus five.

19 The rating temperature is minus 15. So the test is

20 done at minus 15.

21 MR. HON: Okay. So you're basically saying

22 less than 32 zero minus five, less than minus five is
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1 minus 15. Is that --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

3 MR. HON: Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on these slides?

5 Anything else we should think about and --

6 MR. WEBER: I had a comment, actually.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

8 MR. WEBER: This is Collin Weber from

9 Navigant. But where it talks about reporting maximum

10 daily energy consumption, you actually just want that

11 to be their daily energy consumption, because maximum

12 daily energy consumption is a reserve term in the

13 regs, which refers to the allowable standard level.

14 So if they were reporting that, they would actually

15 just be reporting what they are allowed to use.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else?

17 MR. HON: Have we covered service over

18 counter yet? I haven't seen them.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Were they not in --

20 MS. TUCKER: I pulled everything out of --

21 directly out of there.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: What, Ashley?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not in there. He's

3 right.

4 MR. AMRANE: Congress passed a relief

5 station at the end of --

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. AMRANE: -- December, so I don't know if

8 we have committed to this yet or --

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Not yet.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So we need to talk about them,

11 though. Go ahead and --

12 MR. HON: If they're not here, we can talk

13 behind their back.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So I don't have that because

15 it's not in this CAR.

16 MR. AMRANE: It's a TDA, you know, metric as

17 well, so --

18 MS. BARHYDT: So would it be the same as one

19 of the ones that is already up there? Or would it be

20 added to that long list on the other slide? Switch to

21 the other slide.

22 MR. HON: No. Very few of these are -- some
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1 of them would fit into that category as continuous

2 cases. Quite a few others would be self-contained;

3 they are built that way. So you pretty much have to

4 be in both.

5 MR. AMRANE: What was passed by Congress at

6 the end of last -- with AHRI was only to self-contain.

7 We had already addressed previously, and there was no

8 issue with that.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, you mentioned TDA

10 for service over counter. So I was wondering if it's

11 the same sort of information that we should be

12 collecting, since it's based on the TDA concept. Does

13 that make sense, Charlie?

14 MR. HON: I couldn't understand what was

15 said.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So if you look at the

17 information we collect for remote condensing --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Laura, the answer to

19 your question is yes. It says that we need to change

20 the boxes and we need to change the beginning part.

21 The information is similar.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Similar or the same?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying to pull up the

2 energy bill right now, just to confirm. But we can

3 assume it's the same for now, and I can go back. I

4 mean --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and bring it up in a

7 minute when I have a chance.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No problem.

9 MR. HON: The only difference in the bill is

10 the fact that we use TDA rather than internal volume

11 to calculate the numbers.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But we already have

14 that in certain cases, too. So that would be taken

15 care of, I think.

16 MR. HON: It's not a big deal at all. I

17 just wanted to make sure we covered it in the process.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. No, that was a good

19 catch. One other thing, and I just want to make sure

20 that this is clear. I think the slide does cover

21 this, in my opinion, but it has rating temperature in

22 there, and we do have a number of manufacturers for
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1 certain equipment that have weavers, and so --

2 weavings for -- weavers for alternative rating

3 temperatures, which specifically are the lowest

4 product application temperature.

5 So I just want to make sure you guys agree

6 that that covers either the rating temperatures that

7 are specified in the regs or if someone has a weaver

8 at the alternative temperature.

9 MR. HON: That makes sense to me.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense, Mary?

12 You look a little --

13 MS. DANE: Yeah. It's --

14 MR. HON: I'm fine with that.

15 MS. DANE: -- fine.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. Anything else on

17 CRE?

18 MR. KOJAK: I just wanted to ask a question.

19 None of this covers the biomedical freezers, does it?

20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think so.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: They're not covered at all.

22 The definition excludes --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: There's a medical exclusion.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. The definition

3 excludes them specifically.

4 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. SACHS: Unless you put a coin slot on

7 them, so they can be beverage vendors.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. PTACs.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, hey, Laura, before you

10 guys go on, I actually have a question real quick for

11 the CRE manufacturers. Yesterday, we talked about the

12 -- basically, the heaters that go on the glass and the

13 different types of heaters that there could be and

14 that is going to affect the way they're tested. Is

15 there -- do you guys believe that there would be a

16 reason that you guys should submit information about

17 the type of heaters or at least whether they are

18 manually controlled or automatically controlled, or

19 something like that?

20 Such that DOE would make sure it has the

21 right option for testing, or everyone would know how

22 it should be tested? Since we did differentiate that
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1 yesterday?

2 MR. HON: The test standard covers that. So

3 they'd be on, unless otherwise -- you know, unless

4 otherwise noted.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just wondering, so --

6 I'm just wondering if there is ever a case where it

7 looks like an on or off switch, but there's really

8 like this -- you know, if you hit a certain thing

9 twice, or you hit it three times, it has different

10 modes and it's not something that may be necessarily

11 obvious by just looking at it. We may run across

12 that.

13 It just -- it would be helpful to elect

14 something that's variably controlled or if something

15 has different settings, et cetera. I don't know what

16 the best way to describe it is; I'm just thinking

17 that, you know, are there any designs that it is not

18 completely obvious by looking at the unit that

19 something may be incorrectly does it.

20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

21 National. I think if there is something that's -- and

22 part of the conversation on the controls was whether
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1 it's something that is user selectable or user

2 adjustable. If it's user adjustable, user selectable,

3 that should be covered in the operations manual or

4 apparent from looking at the product.

5 I don't really see -- I don't see a lot of

6 that, but, you know, not that -- as we get out into

7 the future that there's not going to be more

8 intelligent control and stuff like that built into

9 what these are. But I don't see really a benefit to

10 including that, because, again, it should be apparent

11 or it should be covered in the operation instructions.

12 And I think it gives potential competitors a

13 shopping list of what -- how manufacturers are

14 building if they come up with some kind of technology

15 to do that, to have to declare that, versus, you know,

16 having that kind of technology built in.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

18 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have never

19 seen one yet, but there are certainly capabilities to

20 do that in some of the new controllers that are sold.

21 So that's one of those issues that -- the same way you

22 are not going to see it, the customer is not going to
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1 see it, because the customer is not going to be

2 turning it on.

3 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, I don't think it's

4 something that would affect how they test the unit. I

5 don't think they would need to know that to test the

6 unit properly, that there's -- you know, if it's a

7 control that is built in somehow automatically.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I'm actually thinking

9 of -- oh, sorry. Go ahead.

10 MR. BAUMAN: Just that it -- you know, I

11 think the question was, is there something that they

12 would -- you know, information that is needed there as

13 far as being able to conduct a test properly. I don't

14 think it's -- I don't think it would be required for

15 that.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can say, I can think of a

17 couple of examples. Let's put it this way. And I'm

18 not thinking about something that has very

19 sophisticated controls. I'm thinking of something

20 that has user-selectable controls, but where the

21 maximum setting may not be one that is easily user22 selectable or figured out. Let's put it that way.
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1 But, I mean, those apparently are anomalies.

2 MR. HON: Well, the one thing we don't want

3 to do, Ash, is get into a situation like the auto

4 industry did, which has, you know, a 10- or 15-day

5 delay in the class heaters turning on.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And by no means do I

7 mean your control scheme or anything like that. I was

8 just more thinking of something very simple. But no

9 worries.

10 MR. HON: Okay.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're actually going

12 to go to the air-cooled. I think some of the stuff we

13 are going to discuss here probably is applicable to a

14 lot of the different types of products. So, and we

15 already have it on this slide, so we'll start on this

16 slide and then we'll go backwards.

17 MR. KOJAK: Can I ask a question real quick?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

19 MR. KOJAK: With the CRE stuff, were you

20 guys just talking about instructions for controls, or

21 are you talking about any instructions to conduct

22 testing?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Instructions to conduct

2 testing.

3 MR. KOJAK: So the only thing I can really

4 think of is if it's a remote case and you're supposed

5 to charge it to a certain subcool or superheat. And

6 there's a special place you want that taken, that

7 temperature taken, on your unit, that should be

8 designated, because I wouldn't think that would be in

9 a manual. It might be; I don't know. But that's the

10 only kind of thing I could think of, instruction --

11 MS. BARHYDT: And the test procedure doesn't

12 specify it?

13 MR. KOJAK: No.

14 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. It

15 should be included in the PDF you provide with the

16 instructions. You know, remote units are going to

17 have some instructions, more extensive instructions

18 than, obviously, a self-contained unit.

19 MR. KOJAK: Yeah, exactly.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. KOJAK: Self-contained is more --

22 MR. BAUMAN: Taking the pressures and flows
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1 gap.

2 MR. HON: That would be a standard for a

3 normal installation of product, and they would see it

4 on the instructions at that point.

5 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

6 MR. HON: For our cases, anyway.

7 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Wouldn't the charging

9 instructions be in everyone's installation manuals?

10 MR. BAUMAN: Should be, yes.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: "Should" is a word that has

12 been used a lot when it comes to these manuals, I've

13 noticed.

14 MR. KOJAK: Because, you know, some of the

15 times we see the manuals they might be a manual that

16 covers different models, and it's confusing or it

17 might be an outdated instruction and there's -- I

18 mean, instruction manuals you know are not always

19 perfectly up to date for everything, so I'm just

20 saying.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. And I think, again, you

22 would hope to be covered -- should be covered in the
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1 PDFs that is provided with it. But, if not, you know,

2 they would have to go back and tell you guys that they

3 don't have enough information or whatever to -- but as

4 a matter of practice, you know, the remote units would

5 generally have that kind of -- all of the information

6 needed to get it started up right.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think what Jeff just

8 said is very important, because what we're trying to

9 do here is everything that should be in there, if

10 there is a reason why it's not we're trying to just

11 flesh all of that out product by product. So for Mike

12 -- and if the other Mike we here, too, I mean, it's

13 more important for you and Judd to speak up at things

14 that when you test these things the stuff that you had

15 to call DOE about, or the manufacturer about, that's

16 what we want to settle. I'm not sure if that was made

17 clear earlier. It wasn't to me.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, it seems to me that

19 based on the description for the remote cases that the

20 charge should be required. You should be providing

21 that, because I can tell you, we get manuals that --

22 MR. BAUMAN: I've written a lot of manuals.
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1 I know what you mean. It's --

2 MS. BARHYDT: So it seems to me like that is

3 something that we probably should require submission

4 of, this is what the charge is for the rating.

5 MR. KOJAK: Well, it can't be necessarily

6 the charge.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. It wouldn't be the

8 charge. It would be --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, help me out with

10 the wording here, but --

11 MR. KOJAK: You would either charge to the

12 subcool/superheat at a certain location, because you

13 can be using -- the condenser portion might not be

14 supplied by them anyway, so the amount of charge can

15 be different. So you have to charge it to, you know,

16 how the case is running. So that's --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Basically, you're

18 saying you need charging instructions --

19 MR. KOJAK: Exactly.

20 MR. WHITWELL: -- included --

21 MR. BAUMAN: Not a charge amount, but

22 instructions on how to charge -- where you check the
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1 temperature and the pressures at to calculate.

2 MR. KOJAK: Because some manufacturers want

3 you to take those temperatures in different places.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh.

5 MR. KOJAK: So, and that makes a difference.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

7 MR. KOJAK: To make sure it's charged

8 properly.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And we'll work on some

10 language and bring that to the next meeting.

11 MR. KOJAK: And that is just remote cases,

12 right?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Remote.

14 MR. KOJAK: Don't let all the gas out of the

15 self-contained charge --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. KOJAK: You can just vent it, though, or

18 something.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Air-cooled?

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Just as a quick

22 comment, this presentation is different than what was
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1 at the last meeting, correct? Is that --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Slightly.

3 MR. THARP: Will this be posted to the

4 website soon?

5 MS. TUCKER: Yeah.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So what's up there

7 right now is what is -- the regulations currently

8 require, except for the red language is some

9 clarification of what we think those requirements

10 mean, because it is not actually specific in terms of

11 it being the rated cooling capacity.

12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. One

13 of the comments that we made last meeting was the --

14 in your first bullet, we specified three-phase,

15 because we are talking about some three-phase units

16 less than

17 65,000 BTU.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. The

19 rated capacity, are you saying in gross or net, or do

20 you need to be specific? I don't know. I really

21 don't know.

22 MR. THARP: If it's rated, it's net, because
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1 rated is net. And, actually, I was thinking about it,

2 rated is actually implied because -- for all of these

3 metrics because SER, HSPF, those are actually rated;

4 right? All those values for capacity or efficiency

5 that are given should be assumed to be rated, because

6 we are not going to list exactly what we test, since

7 we test so much higher than what we rate.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So following on that

9 thought, DOE's expectation is that we would test with

10 the rated cooling capacity. To it -- let me get my

11 prepositions right.

12 MR. THARP: Basically using -- if the

13 manufacturer -- for example, if the manufacturer does

14 not supply an air flow rate, DOE has published that

15 you are going to assume 400 CFM per ton, and you base

16 that off of the rated capacity that was supplied. And

17 you determine the static based off of the rated

18 capacity.

19 MS. MEYERS: If you would go back just one

20 more time.

21 MS. TUCKER: On, sure.

22 MS. MEYERS: Just on that second bullet if
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1 you would note three-phase.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. THARP: Go back to that one. What is

4 the difference between the first and second bullets?

5 MR. WHITWELL: One is less than 65,000 BTU;

6 the other is above.

7 MS. MEYERS: Oh. Well, then, that shouldn't

8 be --

9 MR. THARP: So actually the second one is

10 actually --

11 MR. WHITWELL: Should be greater than --

12 MR. THARP: -- greater than or equal to 65-.

13 MS. TUCKER: Well, no, the second one is

14 just accepting the first. So it's commercial package

15 -- it's basically saying all of --

16 MR. THARP: Thank you.

17 MS. TUCKER: No problem.

18 (Simultaneous speaking.)

19 MR. FLY: Shouldn't the bottom bullet be 65-

20 to 760?

21 MS. TUCKER: What's that?

22 MR. FLY: I mean, up to 760; right?
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1 MR. AMRANE: Are you talking about the --

2 MS. TUCKER: Are you talking about this

3 whole section right here?

4 MR. FLY: Yeah.

5 MS. TUCKER: It is that. It's just saying

6 that it's everything else that is not less than 65-.

7 MR. AMRANE: That's regulated.

8 MS. TUCKER: It's covered, yeah.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

10 MR. FLY: It just doesn't say that.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we're not imposing

12 compliance on anything that is not regulated.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: If it's not covered, we

14 can't legally do anything about that, so --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: The very last inset bullet --

16 this is Jill from Trane.

17 MS. TUCKER: This one?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: The type of heating, make sure

19 that zero or no heating can be a choice. Don't make

20 it have to be.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So is that going to be like a

22 pull-down box with choices or does the manufacturer
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1 insert information there?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Probably a list of options.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Because as we talked

4 about yesterday, so we got electric, we got gas, we

5 could have hydronic, we could have steam.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Somehow you indicate dual

7 fuel.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Dual fuel?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Dual fuel. That's a big one.

10 I mean, I don't know if that's commercially available,

11 but gas and --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Help me out with the dual fuel

13 issue.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a heat pump with a gas

15 heat exchanger in it. So a gas heat exchanger

16 optimized around temperatures below 40 degrees and --

17 around 40 degrees. It depends -- the balance point

18 does depend. And then the heating -- heat pump side

19 heating does for the more moderate temperatures. So

20 it's an optimized design around two operating

21 temperatures.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. One of these residential
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1 units --

2 MR. SACHS: One of the primary markets for

3 these is rural areas where the distribution lines are

4 pretty thin and they can't take a big hit of 10 kW per

5 house.

6 MR. KOJAK: Heat pumps are less efficient at

7 lower temperatures. So as the temperature goes really

8 cold, the supplemental heat kicks in because the --

9 MR. SACHS: Right. And in the rural areas

10 the grid can't stand that big hit of resistance heat.

11 So many of the rural co-ops require the gas furnace

12 stage, instead of resistance backup, to -- if you want

13 to put a heat pump on their lines. That's what I was

14 trying to get to.

15 MS. MEYERS: But they often do that with

16 just a gas furnace. These are package deal fuel

17 units.

18 MR. SACHS: Right. Well, this is the

19 commercial one right now. I'm sorry.

20 MS. MEYERS: This is the commercial one.

21 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

22 MS. MEYERS: I have one of those residential
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1 ones on my house. It's a fabulous unit. You should

2 try it.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Who makes it?

4 MR. SACHS: Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate

5 your changing the subject to save me, but in Virginia

6 it isn't going to get that cold again.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So when you -- I'm a little

9 confused now. So didn't we go through this with the

10 gas thing, that we didn't -- when you test it, the gas

11 doesn't matter? I'm sorry. Maybe I'm --

12 MR. WHITWELL: No, I think maybe the issue

13 here is on the dual fuel it is -- at the rating point

14 it is going to be running on heat pump, but you've got

15 the gas heat exchanger in there, so you've got higher

16 pressure drop, air side pressure drop; right?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And I guess what I'm

18 just trying to say is don't disallow other heating --

19 I mean, if there is some kind of a pull-down menu

20 there, they have to think about all of the possible

21 heating types.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. That's why I would
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1 argue for not a pull-down and let you put in what you

2 think it is.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. We can

4 program this two ways. We can allow freeform; in

5 other words, you guys type it in. That's less ideal

6 for us. Or we can do a dropdown. But in order to do a

7 dropdown, it would probably be helpful if you could

8 help us with a list, an exhaustive list.

9 MR. AMRANE: We need to think about how AHRI

10 might be submitting the information, too. So I don't

11 know, I mean --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. Yeah. So if

13 you want to look at how you guys do it now, and all of

14 the options you offer, and then we could come up with

15 a way, I mean, this is enough to say we need to

16 collect that information, in terms of how we collect

17 that information. And in terms of implementing it in

18 a template, we can talk about ongoing.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But when you test with the

20 dual fuel, was someone just saying that the heat pump

21 would always be the --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, it depends on
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1 the temperature. In the case that Jill explained, if

2 it's -- heat pump down to 40 degrees at the rating or

3 at the -- you know, the test condition, it's going to

4 be running the heat pump.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It will run in heat pump.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Now, somebody else's might --

7 is something different --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: If you want to do a commercial

9 furnace test on that very same unit, you could do a

10 commercial furnace test on that very same unit. And

11 then you can do the fueling test. There's a lot of

12 bang for your buck there, John, if you're buying it.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Make sure you get a Trane

14 unit, though.

15 MR. BAUMAN: The lab is going to charge you

16 for two separate tests, though.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm glad everyone is so

18 confident about their ratings. Who wants to

19 volunteer?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that's kind of what

21 is currently required. And we talked about the PDF

22 with additional instructions, but there is some
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1 information that we think is also necessary. One of

2 the things we would like to collect is nominal cooling

3 capacity. The basic model definition is based on

4 nominal, and so for us it would be helpful to actually

5 have the nominal capacity in there.

6 The rated heating capacity, where

7 applicable, we would be willing to collect IER as an

8 optional piece of information. We know a lot of you

9 are already using those ratings. We could go ahead

10 and put that in there as an optional piece of

11 information, and that way it would already start

12 displaying, and --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But the difference

14 between collecting this and displaying, we should talk

15 about that, right?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I've got that on my

17 list. The rated airflow for each fan coil, the rated

18 static, charging instructions, frequency set points,

19 required dip switch control settings, and base motor

20 designation. Reactions? Thoughts?

21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

22 guess my question would be, why the IER? What's the
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1 need for the --

2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to.

3 MR. AMRANE: No, I know. But why --

4 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent that

5 manufacturers are already making these

6 representations, and we know that people are looking

7 at them, if it's a helpful piece of information --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I think the other

9 answer is some people have asked for that, Karim.

10 Some people have asked if we could -- if they could --

11 if we could collect it, so they could display it. So

12 our way of doing that is to make it optional. If they

13 don't want to supply it, that's fine. But if they

14 want to, they can.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So perhaps maybe for non-AHRI

16 members, I guess where they don't -- they are not in

17 the directory?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You guys can -- I guess

19 individuals -- I mean, but many of you already, you

20 know, for a variety of different reasons have it in

21 your literature, submitted to AHRI, it is already on

22 the web.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. It's already on the web.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

3 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem, and I

4 agree with that, but I do have a problem with the

5 information being on a DOE website if it's not a

6 federal metric. So, you know, it's on AHRI; it's in

7 our literature, but I do have a problem with

8 collecting and putting information on a DOE website

9 that is not covered by the feds. It's just a kind of

10 "in principle" thing.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should go back when we

12 did AEDMs and not allow you to use an AEDM to get IER.

13 Because we extended that courtesy because -- even

14 though it's not a federal metric.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I don't remember any

16 discussion about AEDM and IER.

17 MR. AMRANE: I think what we agreed to was

18 that if the IER becomes a regulated metric, then, yes,

19 I mean, the AEDM should be based on that. No

20 question.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I completely agree with the

22 concept, Karim, which is why this says "optional." I
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1 mean, to DOE it doesn't necessarily matter one way or

2 the other. But I'm just saying, people have asked for

3 the ability to do that. So if AHRI members, either

4 individually or collectively, are uncomfortable with

5 this, then they just don't submit it. But it doesn't

6 preclude other people that may want to from submitting

7 it.

8 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So if

9 they submit it, will you be inclined to check to make

10 sure it's accurate?

11 MR. AMRANE: That's another thing to do --

12 MR. STEPHENS: Would you want to put

13 potentially inaccurate information on the DOE website?

14 MS. BARHYDT: I wouldn't say that everything

15 submitted is accurate. We repeat whatever people

16 submit to us and certify that it is true, accurate,

17 and complete to the best of their knowledge.

18 MR. AMRANE: And that would be the concern.

19 AHRI would be concerned with this because the IER

20 somehow directory is certified by --

21 MS. BARHYDT: They're still making a legal

22 statement to the Federal Government, just to federal
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1 criminal --

2 MR. AMRANE: About the IER?

3 MS. BARHYDT: If they provide it to the

4 government, they are certifying that it is true,

5 accurate, and complete.

6 MR. AMRANE: So if they fail an IER rating,

7 you would be what?

8 MS. BARHYDT: We're not going to be checking

9 it.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: We can't test --

11 MR. THARP: So then I guess AHRI's concern

12 would be that, you know, if a member has an 11 OER

13 unit with a 15 IER and a non-AHRI member comes to --

14 submits the information with the same 11 OER, but they

15 have a 17 IER, that non-AHRI competitor could say,

16 "Well, look, we've got to certify a value to DOE that

17 we're 17 IER." That would be our concern, that

18 somebody would be out there --

19 MR. AMRANE: You know, if they don't check

20 it, I mean --

21 MR. THARP: -- it's not checked, but it's a

22 certified value, right?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Don't you do challenge

2 testing?

3 MR. AMRANE: We do, but at the same time, I

4 mean, I think this is inviting this kind of thing, I

5 believe.

6 MR. STEPHENS: To that point, if someone did

7 a challenge test or even bought a competitor's unit

8 and did the test --

9 MR. THARP: What's the penalty for having

10 the wrong IER?

11 MR. STEPHENS: -- and presented the

12 information to the Department and proved, without a

13 doubt, that their IEER, whatever the metric is -- I'm

14 totally out of that one -- and they were wrong, then

15 what would happen to them?

16 MS. BARHYDT: I'd have to think about that

17 one. I mean, at a minimum.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So, Dusty -- I mean, Rusty.

19 I did it again. My lab manager is Dusty, so -- so

20 Rusty's comment made me think about this. So if

21 somebody were to submit this to DOE and it was to be

22 put on the website, is that -- would the general
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1 public think that that's implying that that's a

2 certified value? I guess is a question. And, if so,

3 I guess that might be a concern, if not everybody has

4 it on there, and some people say, "Oh, yeah. Well,

5 this is DOE-certified, because it's on their website."

6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we put quite a few

7 disclaimers up there in the first place, to say that

8 none of that is DOE-certified.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But you know how that

10 works.

11 MR. SACHS: Well, Bob, the underlying --

12 this is Harvey. The underlying point is how many

13 purchase influencers actually know what "certified"

14 means. I'm sorry, but, you know, we're in our little

15 bubble together.

16 MR. STEPHENS: I don't think they know what

17 IEER means either.

18 MR. WHITWELL: They're learning.

19 MR. THARP: Well, it's part of -- it's an

20 ASHRAE 9.1 metric now.

21 MR. WHITWELL: The people that buy our

22 products I think know what IEER is. At least they
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1 understand the concept.

2 MR. SACHS: So I'm just suggesting that

3 there's a certain fuzziness when we expect people to

4 understand the difference between DOE-certified and

5 just submitted to DOE.

6 MR. THARP: Certified to DOE and DOE7 certified are two different thing.

8 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

9 MR. THARP: Understand -- but we understand

10 that, but the general populous probably doesn't

11 really.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think the

13 question is whether manufacturers ought to be allowed

14 to choose to submit their data or manufacturers would

15 prefer en bloc that IER not be submitted at this time.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we did receive a petition

17 -- this is in the residential market -- for voluntary

18 reporting of EER for the central air. And so we are

19 going to publish the petition and seek comment, but --

20 so we know at least in that market that at least one

21 company finds it important that consumers have the

22 information ahead of the metric being federal law. So
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1 I guess we are trying to draw a comparison here.

2 You know, I understand your points, though.

3 They are valid. You know, so we're just -- we are

4 throwing it up there that -- you know, I could see

5 this being a nefarious thing. I didn't think of it

6 the way you guys did, but I see your point.

7 MR. THARP: I see utility both ways, too,

8 but it's, you know, six of one, half a dozen of the

9 other. And I would like to know what non-AHRI members

10 are publishing, and having one central location would

11 be good to have it, but then, again, it's not

12 certified value. So there's pros and cons each way.

13 Understood.

14 MR. SACHS: I'd like to see it in part

15 because it is honey that flies get drawn to. May get

16 us information that has different interest from its

17 sources, what sources might think its interest is.

18 Tying to Rusty's remark.

19 MS. MEYERS: Well, I mean, I guess my point

20 is, it is available. It is on a manufacturer's

21 literature. If you want to get 90 percent of the

22 industry, you would go to the AHRI website. The other
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1 10 percent could be obtained online through

2 manufacturer's literature.

3 Putting it on a DOE website, though, adds a

4 new element when it's not, you know, a metric that's

5 allowed to be even used by the Federal Government.

6 And it's a rating. It indicates an efficiency level,

7 and it has not been approved to be used. And so

8 having that on the DOE website, I think, just adds a

9 different dynamic. And I will make the same argument

10 on the EER thing.

11 MR. AMRANE: And I would go even further. I

12 think it looks to me more like a marketing thing than

13 anything else. And so DOE wants to be in that

14 business? I don't know. I mean, I'd be concerned

15 about this.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, it's also a place for

17 -- you know, maybe utilities are running programs

18 around those metrics, and they would like a complete

19 list of products to maybe bound a program around. I

20 don't know.

21 MS. MEYERS: And they can get that

22 information.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. They can.

2 MR. THARP: For AHRI members.

3 MR. AMRANE: No, it's not for members. Our

4 program is open to member and non-members. So it's

5 open to anybody who wants to join. So it's any

6 manufacturer can join.

7 MS. MEYERS: No. You don't have to be an

8 AHRI member to be a member of the certification

9 program.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

11 MR. THARP: And going on to some of the

12 other metrics, my first thought on nominal cooling

13 capacity and rated static is if we are giving rated

14 cooling capacity, you more or less have the nominal

15 and rated static information from them.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and rating static is per

17 the test standard; correct?

18 MR. WHITWELL: It's per the test standard,

19 so that's --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we have a

21 choice.

22 MR. THARP: Yeah. So once you have the
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1 rated capacity, you have the rated static.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So the value in the test

3 procedure is a minimum for the static?

4 MR. THARP: Uh-huh.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And you can go above the

6 minimum.

7 MR. WHITWELL: By .05 inches.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It has an upward bound

9 on it, and that's more for the test variation.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I don't read it the

11 same way as you guys do, which may be a different

12 issue. But I read it as that's the tolerance around

13 the static value, yes, that you have to maintain. But

14 I do read it that it's a minimum static that can --

15 you can exceed.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Then we'd better

17 clarify that, because --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a different

19 conversation outside of this.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. A little bit of what we

21 had yesterday, Ashley?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Similar.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you all want to have

2 a test procedure conversation separately about the

3 rated static issue? I mean, about the --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think --

5 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't know that there was

6 an issue, but --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So my position here is that

8 I think this information would be helpful. I realize

9 -- especially like rated air flow and rated static,

10 for us to understand what you did.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Airflow, I totally

12 understand.

13 MR. WHITWELL: The rated static.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Rated static I don't --

15 MR. WHITWELL: The rated static is in the

16 test procedure.

17 MR. AMRANE: It's in the test procedure.

18 It's based on the capacity --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you guys think it's a

20 single point, that you have to hit .45, or whatever.

21 Depending on your unit, you have to hit a given value.

22 And I think it can be read -- there is some ambiguity
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1 there, and DOE's position is that's a minimum, and

2 that it could float. If you need to hit a rated

3 airflow and it has to go above that, that's allowable

4 by the current test procedure.

5 So that's a discussion for a different day,

6 but until we resolve that one way or the other I think

7 it's helpful -- I mean, we can assume that everyone is

8 at the rated static.

9 Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to sit down and

10 talk about this separately. It's probably not worth

11 trying to deal with it here.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So no comments on the

13 rated airflow, rated static, we need to deal with

14 later? Charging instructions.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I do want to point out

16 one thing with charging instructions, and I think this

17 is more or less clear. But a lot of you guys have,

18 you know, your charge, and then there's degree and

19 subcools and your annuals. In some cases, you know,

20 you're trying to hit all three, but you can't hit all

21 three in all cases, or at least we have run into that

22 before.
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1 So it may be helpful to say that, you know,

2 if there's a range, our test procedure adjusts this

3 right now, because at least with the May amendments

4 that came in. But to the extent that you have a

5 hierarchy or, you know, we have also seen cases where

6 it's a charge to this, and one place charged the -- in

7 a different place, or if you pulled different versions

8 of things they say different things. So that's why we

9 kind of want a more definitive value perhaps in the

10 PDF.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Nodding my head, Ashley. You

12 don't see it.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Sorry.

14 MS. BARHYDT: What about the last two

15 bullets -- well, last three bullet points?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: What kind of thing are you

17 thinking in base motor designation?

18 MR. WHITWELL: That's what the horsepower --

19 the horsepower for our base motor.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Whatever your base

22 motor characteristics are. Yeah.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. That's fine.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Question on the third from

3 the bottom. So frequency set points, I understand.

4 RPM -- is that RPM per -- revolutions per second, per

5 step?

6 MALE SPEAKER: But you don't need the --

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. You don't need that.

8 So you just need to know what the frequency -- what

9 compressor speed it should be running at full load,

10 right?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: You don't need anything step.

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 MR. THARP: Go into rated airflow.

16 Actually, rated airflow -- this is Rusty with Goodman.

17 The rated airflow is always standard SCFM.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: What's the difference?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then, I have something

20 that -- for the base motor designation, if it's not a

21 variable airflow unit and there are specific

22 instructions on, you know, a configuration or a
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1 certain setting that is needed to get your rating, you

2 would include that with your base motor.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I agree.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Rusty, so what was the

6 difference between CFM and SCFM?

7 MR. THARP: Actually, it's standard --

8 standard air is at sea level.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Okay.

10 MR. THARP: And barometric -- standard

11 barometric pressure.

12 MS. BARHYDT: I got it. Standard

13 conditions.

14 MR. THARP: Standard temperature conditions,

15 ambient conditions.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And then, a question. So we

17 talked about how if one of the various features that

18 we have agreed not to test, there has to be an

19 identical model available for test without that

20 feature, we are thinking about, should there be some

21 kind of an indication in -- possibly in the PDF, if

22 this basic model has one of those excluded things, so
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1 that we're not going on a wild goose chase trying to

2 find the model that doesn't have the feature, because

3 in reality you have actually rated it with that

4 feature. Does that make sense?

5 And, I mean, it might just be a sentence in

6 the PDF saying, "Base model includes" whatever the

7 excluded feature is.

8 MR. FLY: Because there is not a base model

9 that --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Because there is not a base

11 model without it.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Back to I only make coated

13 coils and that's all I make.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's probably a good

16 idea. I mean, there are -- we talked about cases

17 where we have base models that include things that are

18 exempt.

19 MR. THARP: Well, do you just want a column

20 for each one that says yes/no as far as --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Guidance to the Department on

22 whether excluded features are included. Yeah.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: And that would be part of the

2 PDF.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And I don't see any

4 reason why that couldn't just be in the PDF.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Now, another question on the

6 -- now the third from the bottom. Required dip switch

7 control settings for step variable components. That

8 might not -- there might not always be settings that

9 you can make on the unit itself. You might need to

10 control it through a computer to set the speeds using

11 -- you know, a manufacturer might have to come in and

12 set -- like on VRF equipment, for example, you could

13 have the same thing on this equipment.

14 MS. TUCKER: You would put in your IO manual

15 that it would have to be factored in or --

16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think it would be in

17 the IO manual. I mean, why would you put in the -- in

18 something for the consumer that if you want to run it

19 at the -- for the test you've got to --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it --

21 MR. WHITWELL: It would be in the PDF.

22 MS. BARHYDT: It wouldn't normally require
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1 factory installation. But in order to get it to test

2 conditions --

3 MR. WHITWELL: So to get it to run and --

4 yeah, similar to the example on the water heater I

5 think. The unit itself will not continue to run at

6 the test condition, because it's not -- it's going to

7 say, "Okay. I'm not changing the room temperature. I

8 need to do something different." So --

9 MR. KOJAK: Especially some of it is timed.

10 You know, if you -- you know, you have to run it for a

11 long time, let's say, to do a test properly. And

12 sometimes the settings are only 40 minutes. And if it

13 takes you longer to do that, you keep going back into

14 its variable state and then you need additional --

15 that type of programming to set it that way.

16 And we have done testing for VRF like he's

17 saying, where people have to come in with laptops and

18 actually connect to the program.

19 MS. BARHYDT: But you're saying this is for

20 stuff other than VRF.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it could. I mean,

22 variable speed, just because we have to do it for VDF
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1 -- or for VRF, I mean, it can be the same thing on

2 another equipment.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But wouldn't these be ones

4 that you guys would opt to have a manufacturer

5 present?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily. Sorry to

7 disappoint you.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This wouldn't be part of

9 your 10 percent?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Why would we do that? I

11 mean, I guess I'm just thinking, you know, the VRF,

12 it's automatic; right? And it doesn't mean because

13 they're there to set the speeds that they don't get a

14 second test. At least as I understand that. So, I

15 don't remember that being part of the discussion. So

16 maybe it should be, but --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is automatic for VR.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's automatic that

19 they're there, but the comment, Ashley, was that just

20 because they're there I think they still have the

21 automatic second test, if there's a problem.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I didn't think they did.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Maybe not.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They do not have the

3 automatic second test if they're there for the first.

4 MS. BARHYDT: No. That was one of the

5 provisions was that --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

7 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you were there for the

8 first test, you didn't get an automatic second test,

9 because you should --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- raise whatever issues in

12 the first test.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Yeah, that makes

14 sense.

15 MS. BARHYDT: The whole point of the second

16 test is that you weren't there for the first test.

17 MR. WHITWELL: But you're saying that a

18 manufacturer -- for non-VRF equipment, if you want to

19 be there to set the compressor speed, you have to use

20 this as -- use one of your 10 percent --

21 MR. THARP: Or provide the information in

22 the
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1 PDF.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or provide information or we

3 get to the point where the lab says, "Hey, we need

4 help, and we're going to contact you anyway."

5 MR. WHITWELL: So what if you were just to

6 put in the PDF that it has to be -- you need -- it

7 needs to be set with manufacturer's proprietary --

8 MS. BARHYDT: This model will not run at

9 test conditions.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can do that, and you can

11 expect a call from DOE.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, I think that's

13 probably what we should be doing. Right? I mean, you

14 know, this is going to become more and more of a --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. That's what I'm seeing

16 was a trend up towards variable speed.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Just indication that -- I

18 would say an indication that model will not operate at

19 test conditions.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Without some --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Without --

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- additional, you know,
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1 manufacturer input.

2 MS. BARHYDT: -- manufacturer programming or

3 something.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Something like that.

5 And that's why you have the subpoints submitted, so

6 that when the manufacturer comes in to run it you can

7 check to make sure, okay, it is running where they

8 said ahead of time it's going to run.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI.

11 It's interesting to note that where we are talking

12 about adjustments and the manufacturer system of

13 adjustments, there are some products that have

14 controls that are so integrated into the functional

15 operation of the unit that they actually have to work

16 with the control vendor to create a test control. And

17 you don't adjust it; you swap it out.

18 So you'll remove the factory supply control,

19 put in one that has e-proms burned to the different

20 levels that are required to allow it to run. This is

21 done sometimes in the safety testing, where you have

22 to maintain a certain level, but the control modulates
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1 down based on some of the parameters you might find.

2 So there is not a setting you can go in and override

3 that. You have to have a different control that has

4 been created in order to do that.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that would fall

6 under that language. Any other issues?

7 MR. SACHS: Hi. This is Harvey, and I've

8 had a request come in that we include degrees

9 Fahrenheit in just the raw -- instead of just the raw

10 numbers for temperatures.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I had a question

14 going back to the last slide. What is to prevent

15 abuse of the manufacturer indicating that the product

16 can't be operated without getting information from the

17 manufacturer? I mean, that sort of seems like it

18 could potentially gut that requirement that when you

19 pick your 10 percent you get the --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

21 MR. BALLO: I mean, do we want to limit that

22 to certain types of packaged equipment or is it really
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1 just a problem for the variable equipment?

2 MR. FLY: It's control system-dependent.

3 MS. BARHYDT: It's control system-dependent.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And as you move to IEER,

5 there is going to be even more of that as well.

6 Right?

7 MR. BALLO: I mean, I don't have a problem

8 with --

9 MS. BARHYDT: There's no way you're going to

10 be able to --

11 MR. WHITWELL: No. I understand that.

12 MR. BALLO: You know, if that's the case,

13 then maybe we should go back and revisit that AEDM

14 thing and make it -- the 10 percent is only applicable

15 outside of this product category.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, as a matter of where

17 things are going to go commercially, where things are

18 going to go commercially available. I mean, there are

19 standard electromechanical control systems with on/off

20 --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Jill?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Can all of you all at that end

2 of the table speak up a little bit more?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: That's amazing. You're asking

6 me to speak up.

7 So their standard, you know, systems,

8 electromechanical with standard compressors, on/off

9 compressors, I would say go for it, test it. Then, in

10 those very same product families there are, you know,

11 sophisticated controllers on there that you are not

12 going to be able to bypass without some instruction,

13 and different types of compressors, either step or

14 variable speed compressors, that require somebody to

15 understand how to run those things.

16 So, and they're all in the same product.

17 Right now, the market is probably more so in the lower

18 end of stuff, but the market is going to move, and

19 we're going to have more and more of those models.

20 And my comment on IER -- and Bob is right,

21 but I think that we are going to have to look hard in

22 that test standard about, you know --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Because there you are

2 controlling compressor stages and fan stages.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. And, you know, codes

4 outside of this are requiring our fans to be staged,

5 are requiring our compressors to have minimum stages.

6 So those are -- you know, both California codes and

7 the building codes are going to go that way. So we're

8 all going to have different schemes on how we are

9 going to achieve that.

10 MR. BALLO: I don't have an objection to

11 doing it this way.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: But you're right, if we made -

13 - I mean, that's kind of what I was arguing somewhat

14 with the manufacturer needs to be there because I

15 don't know how else to tell you this. I really don't.

16 I'm not trying to be obstinant. I just don't know how

17 else to tell you.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If it's variable speed,

19 inverter-driven, it probably requires this. I mean,

20 other than that, there might be some things, and I

21 don't have -- I think other than inverter-driven I

22 can't think of anything right now, but --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: But in the step compressors,

2 wouldn't you want to make sure that it is at a certain

3 full load and it doesn't ratchet itself down all of a

4 sudden?

5 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Even if that's a step

7 compressor on a two-stage unit and --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know, now you want to

10 make sure it's at the full load.

11 MR. WHITWELL: They should all be running.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Not ratcheting down. And just

13 like you said, the units run a lot longer than the

14 condition that the control system is going to tell it.

15 So you're going to have to force it or override the

16 controls.

17 MR. KOJAK: So like dual stage, it's easy to

18 bypass the controls. But when it's variable, that's

19 when you run --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. We're going to have a

21 step compressor on one circuit, and you could have a

22 regular on/off on another circuit. And we're starting
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1 to get a lot of different mixes this way. And that's

2 kind of where I was back to, the manufacturer should

3 be there present. And I argued that way long ago, and

4 everyone didn't like that. It would save a lot of

5 time and a lot of back and forth with, you know, phone

6 calls, but I realize it means a trip for everyone to

7 be there.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else on air

9 conditioners?

10 MR. THARP: And all that information would

11 be optional under the last bullet.

12 MS. BARHYDT: No.

13 MR. THARP: You're saying all of that would

14 be mandatory. So the only thing optional would be

15 IER?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Which may come off.

17 MR. THARP: But that information would be

18 submitted in the PDF. All of that information would

19 be in the PDF.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. Well, rated

21 heating capacity would probably be the --

22 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, heat pump? So this
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1 would be on the heat pump you're talking about?

2 MS. BARHYDT: But whether it's in the

3 template or not isn't relevant to whether it's public

4 or not.

5 MS. TUCKER: But if it's not in the

6 template, then technically it's not required because

7 the PDF itself is optional.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Well, what I'm thinking of is

9 that if we require this and they provide it in the

10 PDF, then it's not optional. The PDF is not optional.

11 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Why

13 are we -- I mean, do we want the rated heating

14 capacities? Unless we need to -- we don't --

15 MS. TUCKER: That was the question I was

16 asking earlier.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Corey, we do have to give

18 capacity on a heat pump.

19 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. But I don't

20 think that the regs today require the heating

21 capacity. I think it's based on the cooling capacity.

22 MR. WHITWELL: It all comes back to what is
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1 the certification -- what is the sort of information

2 we are supplying the certification for, right? Is it

3 for DOE so they can evaluate and check units? Or is

4 it something for somebody else?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: The public database is there

6 for lots of reasons. People --

7 MR. AMRANE: I think there are ways to get

8 the information.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: But the PDF is not going to be

10 available to --

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So you've got this in the PDF.

13 MR. KOJAK: What's the frequency set points?

14 I mean, I have only seen very few units, you know,

15 probably R&D units that actually have like a third

16 party frequency drive that has a display on it where

17 you can read the actual frequency of the motor. It is

18 usually not displayed anywhere. So what are you

19 asking for when you say "frequency set points"?

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think what that

21 really should be should be the compressor -- the

22 variable or the inverter-driven components operating
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1 speeds, or something like that. Right? Really, what

2 you want to know is what speed is the compressor

3 supposed to run at at the rated condition?

4 MR. KOJAK: Well, wouldn't that just be the

5 same as the one below it? Because, really, you want

6 to know how to set it to maximum, intermediate, and

7 minimum speeds, if it's a variable. So --

8 MR. WHITWELL: You don't need intermediate

9 and minimum. You just need the speed for the rating -

10 - for EER and COP.

11 MR. KOJAK: Okay. So it's just the max.

12 MR. WHITWELL: It's the rated speed.

13 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

14 MR. WHITWELL: May or may not be the max.

15 MR. KOJAK: All right. There you go.

16 That's true. Okay.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So there's probably two;

18 right? One for cooling and one for heating, if it's a

19 heat pump.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

21 Again, if this information is available on the product

22 or with the I&M, does it need to be duplicated here?
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1 Or is this the information that is not otherwise

2 readily available? It's a lot of information if you

3 already have some or all of this provided.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, again, so this is just

5 getting back to what I stated earlier, that we're

6 asking everything we need to know to test the unit, to

7 verify the rating that you have on the product when

8 you test it. So we're just asking you for, what is

9 all of that information? And so --

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So we could --

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- this is what we think it

12 is, and we're asking for --

13 MR. AMRANE: That's fine. This is Karim

14 with AHRI. But, again, the IER has nothing to do with

15 it. The heating capacity has nothing to do with the

16 way you test the unit. So that's why I don't think

17 it's appropriate to list that here. I mean, it has

18 nothing to do with the information needed to run the

19 test. You're not running the test for IER. You're

20 running it for EER.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they're running for COP

22 is what --
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1 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- and heat pump.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would like to say that it

4 does help us to --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the unit correctly.

7 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Again, I don't

8 mind supplying that information as long as it's kept

9 private. This is not in stuff that -- especially

10 things like the dip switch settings and the frequency

11 set points, those are not things that I want my

12 competitors having accessing to.

13 So, again, that is information I think you

14 do need to do the testing and test it properly. And I

15 don't mind supplying it if it's just for the testing.

16 But, again, if this is information that might

17 potentially become public or given out, I would not

18 want to -- I would pare this list back significantly.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Good point, Rusty. That's a

20 good point.

21 MR. THARP: If it was just the private

22 testing info, I don't mind supplying it.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MR. THARP: As long as it's --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Ways to drive the unit to run

4 outside of its regular operating conditions. I don't

5 want a customer to get that and start getting -- going

6 around things. So besides my competitors, I don't

7 want -- we don't give that to our customers, the

8 ability to do that.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Just

10 a question. When we submit it to DOE, even if it is

11 held confidential, is there a timeframe there? After

12 five years or 10 years it does become public, or is it

13 indefinite confidential?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's that one.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Indefinite?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's my understanding.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Indefinite, do you mean --

18 "indefinite" means it's not determined, or

19 "indefinite" means that forever?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's nominally correct.

21 I'm not sure what that means, but that's what --

22 MR. STEPHENS: I think Jeff's question was
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1 right on the money about whether -- if it's requested

2 by the Freedom of Information Act --

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So if it's business

4 confidential, my understanding is you market it as

5 such so that, you know, it's not subject to FOIA.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Can the Department

7 provide a header for the PDF that we can all use, so

8 that when we submit confidential information, there is

9 no doubt?

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The lawyer is back in the

11 room. I figured if I stalled long enough --

12 MS. BARHYDT: So what's the question --

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: If FOIA is confidential.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. What about it?

15 MR. STEPHENS: So for the PDF where the

16 manufacturers are providing confidential information,

17 can the Department provide a standard header that we

18 could use so there's no doubt?

19 MS. BARHYDT: We don't really want to make

20 just the standard form. I mean --

21 MR. STEPHENS: Just verbiage.

22 MR. WHITWELL: He's asking for verbiage to
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1 make sure --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. WHITWELL: -- that the data will be

4 protected.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it's not that easy,

6 because you --

7 MR. WHITWELL: That's why we were looking

8 for input, I guess.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So you can slap the header at

10 the top, but then you can provide tons and tons of

11 public information on it and it doesn't make it

12 confidential. So just having the header at the top

13 doesn't get you there. The information still has to

14 actually be confidential business information.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But if we provide all

16 of this information, which a consumer could pick up

17 through the Freedom of Information Act, and figure out

18 how to make our unit do backflips instead of front

19 flips, and cause us all kinds of problems, then --

20 MS. BARHYDT: So if you submit the

21 information to us, DOE already has regulations in

22 place that say that before we release it in response
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1 to a Freedom of Information Act request we will send

2 it back to you and we will at that time ask for your

3 views on what needs to be redacted.

4 MR. STEPHENS: And what if you disagree with

5 our views? Because this is very short and sweet

6 information; right? So it's going to have a lot of --

7 everything is basically going to be highlighted as

8 confidential.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So you highlight a whole bunch

10 of stuff as confidential, and then you have to give us

11 a justification. You don't just mark the boxes; you

12 have to actually explain why this is confidential

13 business information. And after you have done that,

14 you send it back to us. If we disagree, we notify you

15 in writing that we disagree, and we have to wait seven

16 days before we release it. That seven days is so that

17 you can sue us.

18 MR. STEPHENS: So in seven days -- I'm a

19 small business that doesn't have a lawyer on staff,

20 and I have to go and explain the situation to them,

21 and do cartwheels in addition to backflips.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm trying to think if
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1 anyone in here has been -- had a FOIA for anything

2 they had submitted to us. I can't think of one.

3 Maybe on the residential side? I don't think anyone

4 in this room has.

5 I think if you talk to the companies who we

6 had information from the company, and this is not to

7 suggest that they were subject to enforcement action.

8 We just had information from the company sometimes as

9 a result of requests for a test procedure waiver or an

10 arms submittal or something like that. They submit

11 information to us. We really work hard with you to

12 understand and protect information that is

13 confidential business information. It is not in

14 anyone's interest to release confidential business

15 information, and we do work with you.

16 But there is a legal standard. It's not

17 enough to just say, "Well, we don't want this

18 information released."

19 MR. STEPHENS: That's understandable. I

20 think we all understand that.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So where this came up was --

22 so, Rusty, maybe repeat your original --
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1 MR. THARP: My comment was that all of this

2 information that's in that last bullet, all of the

3 sub- bullets, I don't mind supplying that if it is for

4 the testing purpose and not going to be made public.

5 But if this information is going to be made public,

6 then I will change my position and want to submit only

7 the absolute bare minimum required for testing,

8 because I think not all of this is required for

9 testing capacity rate, heating capacity of the IER.

10 That stuff, I don't think -- it's not necessary for

11 the testing process.

12 But because things like the frequency set

13 points and dip switch settings, things of that nature

14 for the testing process, you know, that's stuff

15 competitors would love to get hold of. And so I would

16 just like for that to be stuff that is submitted on

17 the PDF that is not made public.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Laura, I mean, our intention

20 is not to post the PDF in the public database.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. No.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Period. Any information
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1 that you put in the PDF, we -- is going internal to

2 DOE. What Laura is trying to say is that information

3 could be subject to FOIA, and we'd have to go through

4 the process. But there is no intent here -- all of

5 those things you see listed right there would go in a

6 PDF if we -- if that's the easiest way to do it. But

7 none of it is meant to go in the public database.

8 MS. BARHYDT: What about the cooling

9 capacity and heating capacity, Ashley?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the rated cooling

11 capacities on the previous slide that should go in the

12 public database. I don't see a reason why nominal

13 needs to. There is no reason why rated heating

14 capacity shouldn't go in the database.

15 And, really, I mean, I know we didn't really

16 decide IER one way or the other, but it seems like the

17 majority agreed to not having it. If we did keep IER,

18 there is no reason that shouldn't go in the public

19 database. But other than that, this stuff should not

20 go in the public database. I mean, the stuff provided

21 in the PDF shouldn't go in the public database.

22 We can't say it -- I mean, if we got a FOIA,
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1 we'd have to go through the process, but there is no

2 intention to put it in the public database.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Does that help?

4 MR. THARP: Again, if that's information in

5 the PDF, I'm fine with it.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Not

8 to keep kicking the horse, but realize with the cross9 section of manufacturers in this industry you have

10 some that -- the larger ones, a rounding error in

11 their business is the gross annual revenue for other

12 manufacturers; right?

13 So the big dogs can just simply sic their

14 lawyers on the little dogs by swamping the Department

15 with a Freedom of Information Act request. And then

16 that stops all new product development and a lot of

17 other activities which are very good for the economy

18 and the country, because we have to shift gears and go

19 on the defensive instead of the offensive.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Before all of that, wouldn't

21 they simply buy the product and test it themselves?

22 MR. STEPHENS: They would do both.
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1 MR. THARP: Not if they don't know how to

2 set it.

3 MR. STEPHENS: Yeah.

4 But I'm not talking about anyone specific in

5 this room, because we are all good people.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, I'll agree in that

7 sense. I mean, it could bring you down to your knees.

8 It would bring some of us big ones down to our knees

9 in a lot of cases. I mean, we would stop and do a lot

10 of stuff around, you know --

11 MR. THARP: Right. You get that kind of --

12 even the big dogs, if you get that kind of a request,

13 it brings attention to the very highest levels and

14 causes a lot of internal pain.

15 MR. STEPHENS: And the only thing really

16 keeping it from happening is it is assured mutual

17 destruction because it is global thermal nuclear war,

18 right? As soon as one person does it, everybody does

19 it.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: We can have a side

21 discussion about FOIAs, over a beer somewhere.

22 I'll buy my own.
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1 MR. MYERS: Laura, this is Frank Myers, PVI.

2 I had asked a question while you were out of the room.

3 We talked about it briefly in the context of some

4 earlier discussions, and that is, if there is any of

5 this information that is already provided to the

6 laboratories by the way of markings on the product or

7 instructions included with the product, it doesn't

8 have to be repeated here. You just -- you want to

9 make sure you have it.

10 MS. BARHYDT: No. We actually want it here,

11 and I'll give you a very specific example. We bought

12 a unit. It had a manual in it that had three

13 different statics or airflows. I don't remember which

14 it was, but it had three of them in the manual. Which

15 one do we use? This is what we are going to test to.

16 MR. MYERS: As long as they don't give you

17 three there.

18 MS. BARHYDT: If they give us three there,

19 we are going to be calling them long before we ever

20 buy a unit. It is just manuals aren't a good,

21 reliable source for us to use.

22 MR. BAUMAN: That's why customers don't
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1 bother reading them.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean, I'm going to

3 agree with you. They are not written for your -- for

4 you in mind, and they are not written for the test in

5 mind. They are written for the customer and their

6 application, so --

7 MR. AMRANE: Which is what they should be.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So

10 are you looking for a PDF for each basic model, or

11 each family, or however the manufacturer --

12 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have families. We

13 have basic models.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So the answer is basic

15 models.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Could be the same. Could be

19 the same for --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Maybe you submit the

21 same thing over and over and over, but --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You could do it the
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1 way you wanted.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI.

4 We had talked earlier again about the number of models

5 that you could have and the number of variations. You

6 might have the same product. It could have three

7 different controls and have three different sets of

8 instructions and three frequency set points, depending

9 on what, in this case, compressor was with this

10 product.

11 And then maintaining this when those change

12 in your change system, this is going to be a

13 tremendous amount of work initially, just this one

14 aspect. For the occasional test that is going to be

15 done, this is a tremendous amount of work for the

16 industry to go through, and to maintain this is an

17 even larger amount of work.

18 The payoff for this, I can't believe that it

19 is worth what this industry is going to pay to make

20 all of that happen. It would be less costly by far to

21 make a call and say, "Hey, we've got this piece of

22 equipment; send us what information you -- send us
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1 this information when we ask for it." As opposed to

2 on the front end.

3 Then there is no communication with the lab.

4 It's only communication with you. There is only a

5 relatively small number of tests involved, so there is

6 a relatively small number of models. And you give us

7 a week and we give you this information, or give us a

8 day and we give you this information. But just for

9 the ones that you need it for.

10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

11 would send what Frank has just said here. I think it

12 makes a lot of sense, in my opinion, because just for

13 what he said, I mean, maintaining this is going to

14 require a lot of effort from all of the folks in this

15 room and those who are not in the room.

16 So, but I guess I understand maybe why UE

17 doesn't want to do it that way. You don't want to

18 manufacturers to know that you are buying a unit, and

19 that's a different -- yeah.

20 MR. MYERS: Ask us all three times or four

21 times a year for some information, we know you're not

22 testing that many units, but then we will know which
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1 one is and which one --

2 That's a lot easier than this.

3 MR. THARP: That's true.

4 MR. STEPHENS: If you buy the unit and you

5 already have the unit before you ask the questions,

6 then there is not a whole lot of wiggle room that

7 manufacturers have; right?

8 MR. MYERS: Especially if they only have a

9 short amount of time to respond, because I heard

10 someone talking earlier about you might be able to set

11 something up and work out special parameters.

12 MR. THARP: This kind of product it takes

13 days to set up sometimes. You're talking the VRF, I

14 don't think -- Mike, I don't know how much you've

15 done. You talk to Mike Stem at Intertek, and it takes

16 them six or seven days to set up a VRF system.

17 MR. KOJAK: Yes. VRF is intensive.

18 MR. MYERS: So if you had five business days

19 to respond, then that wouldn't be of concern.

20 MR. THARP: A typical 20-ton single package

21 unit is going to take at least a day, if not two, to

22 set up.
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1 MR. KOJAK: Well, the one point I wanted to

2 bring up if -- I mean, I just -- I missed the

3 beginning part of this, but I think I understand where

4 you're going. The time that it is sitting in the room

5 idle, waiting for the manufacturers to get the data

6 for us, how to set the programming, that billing then

7 goes to the DOE since it is just sitting in the room

8 doing nothing?

9 MR. MYERS: When they place the order, when

10 they get the unit, before you ever see it, they can

11 ask for this --

12 MR. THARP: Well, Frank's comment was

13 instead of us -- the industry supplying all of this

14 information up front for every unit, that we just --

15 that DOE, when they select a unit, just give us one

16 day to supply the data.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And I know that one of

18 the concerns is not letting everybody know when you

19 are testing their units. But VRF manufacturers are

20 going to know when you test every one of their units.

21 So --

22 MS. BARHYDT: If we could find a way around
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1 that.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: They come all the way from

3 Japan.

4 MR. WHITWELL: No, they don't. No. When

5 you test one of our units, it is going to be a guy

6 that works for me coming from Syracuse.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we must not have had

8 yours yet.

9 MR. STEPHENS: One of our little asterisks

10 is actually going to be a GPS tracking device.

11 MR. MYERS: Seriously, I would propose that

12 this not be at the front end, that this be -- and I

13 was not totally kidding. You know, if that makes DOE

14 more comfortable, then ask us for information on

15 random units several times a year. We don't know --

16 we don't know which one is real and which one is not.

17 And give us five working days to cover people in the

18 U.S., plus people elsewhere, to respond and get it

19 back to you. And it's done before it gets to the lab,

20 or if it's one of the real ones --

21 MS. BARHYDT: So your initial was 24 hours,

22 and it just keeps getting longer every time you say
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1 it.

2 MR. MYERS: I said a day or a week. It had

3 been repeated as a day, and I was thinking about

4 overseeing -- manufacturers overseeing the time

5 differences, that sort of thing.

6 MR. THARP: And for me and, you know, some

7 of my -- our products within my corporation, some of

8 those would be contacting Japan for potential issues.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. That

10 would not preclude you from making those requests from

11 companies that you aren't intending to test at that

12 specific time, just so that may give you some more

13 comfort.

14 MR. THARP: Also put the fear in them, too;

15 right?

16 MR. MYERS: Trying to find some way to get

17 DOE -- because we understand. Trying to get DOE the

18 information they need and maintain as much of the

19 uncertainty for manufacturers, the secrecy, and still

20 not requiring this amount of workload and maintenance.

21 It seems like a reasonable time for --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what happens if you don't
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1 provide it in the -- let's say it's 48 hours. What's

2 the -- what do we do?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Two hundred a day.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just automatically start

5 fining? I mean, I --

6 MR. THARP: Start testing with what you

7 have.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we would --

9 MR. THARP: Test with defaults. Go to the

10 400 CFM per ton. Put the onus on the manufacturer to

11 respond quickly.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then it fails the test, then

13 you come in in the second test, and then you say, "Oh,

14 you did all of this wrong."

15 MR. THARP: Make that part of the procedure.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we are just -- you know,

17 we will default to the second test all the time.

18 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that there is

19 any perfect way, but, I mean, to Frank's point, this

20 is -- hadn't really thought about the resources to put

21 this together for all of the products, but it --

22 MR. THARP: And as he's talking about it,
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1 you know, one of the things that Phillip mentioned is,

2 you know, the ECNs and changes that happen, it's not

3 uncommon that you change components and we may -- as a

4 result, we may decrease our capacity from 120,000 to

5 115,000 on a certain model, because we change a

6 compressor or some other component in the system. And

7 that doesn't get updated here and we get dinged for

8 something of that nature.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Is the proposal that you are

10 going to get a call three or four or five times a year

11 from Laura saying, "Hey, send me some data or send me

12 your instructions on these models?" I'm not sure

13 where I'm seeing that that is going to relieve the

14 burden because you are going to be in a panic. Either

15 you don't have that information updated, you are going

16 to be in a panic going around and making sure it's

17 updated and trying to do that in a very short timeline

18 versus keeping it updated.

19 I mean, I'm all for trying to understand the

20 burden of keeping that. I'm not sure that I want that

21 phone call from Laura three or four times a year,

22 either, where management is going to get all in a
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1 panic because you've got to go through and review

2 everything again.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: And then it's just Russian

4 roulette. You don't know if it's the empty chamber or

5 the full chamber.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Right. It's really going to be

7 --

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. I'm

9 sure that's different for different manufacturers

10 around the world, but I look at our staffing level and

11 the number of models and the number of alternate

12 controls. And, again, we don't make this, so I'm

13 talking generically. And for people -- other

14 manufacturers in the small customer side like we do

15 for water heaters and boilers, it would be an amazing

16 -- we'd have to hire somebody to make up for the cost

17 of doing this, because we have so many variables on so

18 many models.

19 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

20 guess going further, it -- you know, what is to harm -

21 - see, if you already have the unit, but the unit --

22 then you let the manufacturer -- you inform the
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1 manufacturer, "Give me the instructions," what is the

2 harm of doing that?

3 MS. BARHYDT: So the way our system is set

4 up, we do one test. We don't have any other extra

5 units sitting around. So as soon as they know we have

6 selected a unit for test, I guarantee you every

7 manufacturer immediately takes whatever we selected,

8 and they put it into their own test chamber to make

9 sure that it's working just like they thought it was.

10 MR. WHITWELL: In a lot of cases that

11 wouldn't be physically possible.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: My labs are filled up with

13 developmental units. I can honestly say no.

14 MS. BARHYDT: I can honestly say that has

15 not been our experience.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Was that on commercial

17 equipment or on residential equipment?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Both.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Because residential equipment

20 you can probably pull out an inventory and do some

21 tests. With these you can't necessarily do that.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe they wouldn't build a
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1 second one. I don't know. But it has happened in

2 residential and commercial. And no manufacturer is

3 going to take that -- their unit and not go -- let's

4 say it doesn't perform the way their AEDM predicted.

5 The odds of us getting more units that are truly not

6 subjected to additional quality control, additional

7 tweaks, anything, it's human nature. I'm not

8 attributing any malice. It's just -- it's human

9 nature.

10 So as soon as they know that that model has

11 been selected, they are going to start looking at it.

12 I mean, it's not -- no offense, but it's not like when

13 AHRI says we are going to test something. When DOE

14 says we are testing something, people react.

15 MR. KOJAK: I'd like to ask, when AHRI tests

16 and rates the units, is that documented somewhere, the

17 settings that it was run at by the lab --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

19 MR. KOJAK: -- that ran it?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Sure.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

22 MR. KOJAK: It is?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

2 MR. KOJAK: So what if it's selected again

3 and you've changed a controller or something else, is

4 it the manufacturer who AHRI okayed to be there and

5 redo it and do everything the same way?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: We can witness test

7 everything. We can witness test everything in AHRI.

8 MR. WHITWELL: But the speeds are provided

9 to

10 AHRI --

11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim again.

12 MR. WHITWELL: -- before the test.

13 MR. AMRANE: Going further, I think in most

14 cases for the product we're talking about here, it is

15 going to be very hard for you to find a unit -- or

16 several units in the market. So you probably will

17 have to order it through the manufacturer in most

18 cases anyway.

19 MS. BARHYDT: We have had commercial --

20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I mean, maybe you --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: In the lower sizes, yes.

22 MR. AMRANE: But at some -- you know, most
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1 cases, you probably --

2 MS. BARHYDT: I recognize that there is a

3 very large --

4 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. It's custom-made, I mean

5 --

6 MR. MYERS: Laura, let me see if I can

7 combine what Karim just said with what you just said.

8 I think you've just said that for these commercial

9 products, with a very different distribution chain,

10 audit report process, we are trying to simulate a

11 blind test knowing we will fail.

12 MS. BARHYDT: No.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

14 MR. MYERS: You have just said that we are

15 not going to get a unit that hasn't been carefully

16 caressed and tuned.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. That's if they know

18 that we have selected an initial unit.

19 MS. BARHYDT: If they know that we've

20 selected it, which is why we want to do the testing

21 without --

22 MR. SACHS: But a large fraction are going
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1 to be built to order.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. But built to order

3 for what purpose? Because DOE called you up and said

4 they need three more or because --

5 MR. SACHS: No, because maybe Cymbalsky

6 Distributors is more successful than I would be in --

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we've been through this

8 with -- not this product, but there is another product

9 that has a similar supply chain issue with it, where

10 the one we were able to buy, you know, had some

11 serious issues. We couldn't get others without

12 getting the gold-plated version.

13 And, again, this is not accusing anyone of

14 anything, but that's just -- all of a sudden they're

15 like, "Oh, we need to build three for you? Yeah, we

16 can do that." Didn't perform anything like the first

17 one we bought off the shelf. Right? I mean, that's

18 exactly what happened.

19 MR. KOJAK: It's like a food critic. If a

20 food critic goes in a restaurant and he knows that he

21 can get a premium --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Yeah. You're going
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1 to get a different plate of food. That's right. And

2 it's not accusatory. But like Laura said, it's human

3 nature that, you know, now you're going to have your A

4 group on the product, not your B group or whatever.

5 MR. SACHS: And we're saying the same thing,

6 that this is doing its best to emulate blind tests

7 with a full understanding of --

8 MS. BARHYDT: It's the second part of that

9 that I don't agree with.

10 MR. SACHS: It's not blind if there is --

11 MS. BARHYDT: It's not a guarantee that it

12 will fail.

13 MR. SACHS: I didn't say anything about

14 failure. I'm saying -- I was talking about the

15 process.

16 MS. BARHYDT: No. But your word was that

17 the process would fail. I didn't mean the unit would

18 fail.

19 MR. SACHS: I'll stand by what I said,

20 realizing I could be wrong.

21 I believe I heard a motion for adjournment.

22 MS. BARHYDT: I think everybody is leaving.
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1 (Whereupon, at 2:52 p.m., the

2 proceedings in the foregoing matter

3 were concluded.)

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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

11 interest in this proceeding. 

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16 ~(~7~A<; 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

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3 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that 

5 I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using 

6 the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that 

5 I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using 

6 the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 

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0

05 249:7

1

1 6:19 14:22

101:19,21

104:18 105:1,15

127:13 162:21

1,000 25:12

1,500 32:16 42:16

43:17

1:00 189:1,2

10 6:16 40:2 45:5

96:16 189:2

191:19 201:7

223:4 234:4

247:1 258:9

259:20 262:19

263:14 273:12

100 60:22

1000 1:10

100-gallon 172:5

100-ton 73:16

10th 125:17

10-ton 36:10 37:11

40:3 138:3

11 40:2 242:12,14

110,000 36:7

11234 105:16

115,000 291:5

11-ton 37:10

40:3,6

12 38:16 45:5 80:7

96:16 138:4

199:6 200:17

201:2,3,4,7,21

202:13 203:5

205:3,14,15

12,000 38:20

12.5 167:12 180:17

183:8 184:17

120,000 291:4

123F99 86:17

130-ton 145:7

135,000 43:19

140 167:9

175:11,12 178:8

180:13

182:6,8,9,10

185:3 186:21

15 35:9 38:16 45:5

83:18 203:5

213:4,8,19,20

214:1 242:13

15-day 223:4

15-ton 112:21

17 38:18 45:5

242:15,17

18 1:14 82:8 83:18

85:4,17 87:14

93:3,8,9 156:17

18-character 88:3

92:5

18-digit 83:10

85:10 87:9 88:10

95:5 115:15

156:10

19 187:10

1995 138:18,21

140:18

1A 105:2

1B 105:2

1C 105:2

1D 105:2

1E 105:2

1F 105:2

1st 7:18 71:9

2

2 15:21 105:15

162:22

2,000 32:17 42:16

2,500-gallon

174:10

2:52 299:1

20 38:19 45:5

56:13 60:5

64:15,17

2010 208:18

2013 1:14 99:3

20-digit 96:17

110:7

20-ton 60:5 286:20

21st 71:3,6,18

225,000 141:20

22nd 71:4,7,18

24 288:21

25 38:21 45:5

174:7

250,000 138:1,7

25-gallon 174:8

26th 71:15

27th 71:15

3

3 36:4 105:15

3.8 34:20

30 38:21 45:5

31st 71:8

32 213:22

33-34 7:20

34,000 36:4

340 107:6

342 107:8

343 107:7

343.60 33:22

34:2,5,18,20

45:17 49:15

75:15 76:4,14

345 107:9

35 31:9,17 38:21

84:15

35-character 92:6

35-digit 84:13

115:15

36 31:9

36,000 36:2

38,000 36:5

3-ton 36:5,6

4

4 43:17 105:15

4,000 43:20

40 38:21 233:16,17

237:2 257:12

400 230:15 290:10

43.60 74:11

45 250:20

46 52:12

48 290:1

5

5 56:13 105:15

5,000 63:7,12

74:21

50 11:21

50P 112:3

50TC-010 112:17

5-ton 43:18
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6 45:4 105:15

6,000 38:13

60 52:10

60-foot-long

145:19

63 73:17

65 231:12,19 232:6

65,000 35:20

229:17 231:5

7

7 38:15 45:4

105:15 138:3

7:00 9:16

70 52:10

75 52:4

760 75:22

231:20,22

7th 71:9

8

8 6:15 38:16 45:4

8:10 1:15

80-gallon 172:6

83 52:14

8760 50:7 52:3

8th 71:9

9

9.1 244:20

9:35 70:22

90 68:21 246:21

90.1 19:11,14

95 52:13 68:22

136:1

95/75 52:5,8

99 19:14 86:6,9

87:21,22 116:5

136:1 156:19

99-digit 156:11

A

a.m 1:15

AAON 2:16 13:18

25:19 48:10

53:12 58:12

61:21 70:17

72:12 86:2 89:1

92:13 98:10

105:9 120:3

ABC 86:17 101:21

104:19

ABC123

80:7,11,13,14,16

,20

ABCD 104:19

ability 151:4 241:3

273:8

able 7:1 43:4

53:18 54:3,4

57:2 85:4

92:1,4,17 94:18

95:5,9 96:2

105:12 134:13

139:4 146:12

147:6 148:5

149:22 151:20

153:4 154:4

160:14 166:11

174:11 196:1

200:9 201:19

202:7,13 203:9

222:13 263:10

264:12 286:10

297:10

absolute 278:7

absolutely

50:11,13 118:8,9

179:9 183:12

abstain 15:11

21:15 23:8 24:18

77:22

abstentions 30:19

46:8 61:19

abuse 262:15

accept 90:21 124:2

acceptable 148:10

accepting 231:14

access 116:17

147:8 149:8

153:18 154:11

163:12,14,20

accessible 116:11

accessing 272:12

accommodate

98:2,4,5 156:3

accommodates

100:17

accordance 176:7

account 13:8

accuracy 171:8

accurate 182:4

241:10,15,16

242:5 300:8

accusatory 298:2

accusing 297:13

achieve 60:19 99:6

131:19 265:9

across 13:22 14:2

56:3 201:19

203:4 220:11

Act 274:2 275:17

276:1 280:15

acting 26:20

195:17

action 192:19

195:21 277:7

active 194:10

activities 280:17

actual 35:6 184:21

269:17

actually 5:4,8 11:1

13:1 18:3 27:10

33:13 34:19

44:13 46:5 47:20

54:2 63:20 73:15

81:2,5 84:2

85:11 86:4,12

98:12 101:3

102:8 112:18

113:7 125:14

126:17 128:3

141:17

143:16,17,22

153:7 156:6

158:1 171:13

174:9 176:2

178:11,12

180:22 189:8

190:13 197:16

198:22 199:3

201:15 208:10

210:16 212:14

214:6,10,14

219:10 222:8

223:11 229:10

230:1,2,3

231:9,10 238:4

244:13 253:16

254:7 255:3

257:18 261:15

269:15 275:14

276:12 282:10

288:10

add 13:1 14:13

17:22 22:5 26:11

27:19,21 44:1

73:2 77:19 90:9

102:1 105:2
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166:20,22

187:10 197:11

added 8:3 14:7

22:2 167:22

197:6,13,19,20

215:20

adding 53:9 58:3

105:6

addition 64:22

65:13 276:21

additional 5:12

9:1,2 18:21

129:6 146:3

148:21 157:1

160:13

163:7,14,21

237:22 257:14

260:22 294:6

add-on 110:3

add-ons 59:2

address 110:8

addressed

74:10,13 216:7

adds 247:3,8

adequate 184:6

adjournment

298:21

adjust 150:7

159:12 161:1

261:17

adjustable 221:2

adjusting 151:3

adjustments

261:12,13

adjusts 252:2

administration

196:11

admittedly 53:22

adopted 12:18

13:15

adopting 45:17

advanced 154:10

advantage 135:10

ADVISORY 1:7

advocated 123:16

advocating 44:4

154:13

AEDM 102:17,22

103:4,9 106:5,20

108:21

123:9,13,15

125:20

126:11,15,16,18

127:7,15,19,21

128:3,6,15,16

160:12

189:17,22

190:6,10

191:10,11,14,16

192:2,5 196:2,7

200:9,11,18,19

201:11,14

207:20 208:2

240:12,16,19

263:13 294:4

AEDM-A 190:14

AEDM-B 190:14

AEDM-C 190:14

AEDMs 158:5,7

190:21 191:14

207:18 208:3

240:12

aerospace 84:3

affect 79:14 87:4

208:21 219:14

222:4

affected 161:9

affirmative 127:10

188:5

against 65:2,3,4

age 110:19

agents 90:3

aggressive 16:4

ago 11:12 125:9

267:3

agreed 122:3

160:4 240:17

254:18 279:17

agreement 44:18

160:11 169:21

Ah 188:8

ahead 13:6 53:19

59:19 64:6

102:4,14 106:2

190:3 209:15,22

213:3 215:11

222:9 238:9

245:22 261:8

AHRI 2:5 3:14

44:20 45:19

60:13 76:11

79:6,9 87:10,18

90:7 93:22 96:6

98:19 99:1

113:4,5,20

114:7,19 115:1

119:13,15,18

121:16 127:12

142:16 152:21

153:13,15,16

158:17,18

163:12,21

164:5,19 192:15

195:2

199:5,15,19

206:9 209:5

216:6 236:9

238:21 239:21

240:6 241:3,19

246:22 248:2,8

268:12 271:14

285:10 292:19

294:13,15

295:4,7,10

AHRI's 242:11

air 4:3 23:17,19,20

28:16 32:5,8

33:10 42:6 47:10

49:1,15,16,20,21

50:5,7,22 51:1,9

52:12,22 53:9

56:1,3,17 59:8

60:6,15,16,22

61:7 62:1 63:8

64:4,7,9,18

65:2,4,15,17,19,

20

66:12,15,16,17,1

8,19,22 67:2

68:21 72:7,19,22

73:5 76:21 78:16

129:2 130:1

133:2 137:1,21

139:5 142:2

145:11 230:14

235:16 245:18

250:9 254:8

267:8

Air-Conditioning

2:5,9 3:13

air-cooled 223:12

228:19

airflow 238:17

250:11 251:3,13

253:15,16,17,21

airflows 282:13

air-handling

142:4

air-moving 39:20

airstream 23:17

akin 84:2,7
Capital Reporting Company

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Alabama 19:15

Alex 2:10

align 13:14

alike 99:14 120:18

Allied 4:3

allow 198:17,18

207:5 236:4

240:12 261:20

allowable 214:13

251:3

allowed 214:15

245:13 247:5

allowing 49:5

allows 101:13

198:22

all's 5:8

alpha 88:14

already 7:6,9

46:18 57:14

67:16 70:12 91:8

105:3 113:5

117:9 136:2

143:1 149:15

153:9,10 156:20

162:15 177:15

186:2 197:15,18

215:19 216:7

217:13 223:15

238:9,11

239:5,19,21

240:1 271:3

275:21 282:5

286:5 292:21

alternate 292:11

alternative 184:10

218:2,8

am 6:18 19:21

37:9 44:5,13

52:1,16 53:5

55:9,13 66:7

68:3 72:19 73:22

79:9 80:5 88:22

90:15 91:10,11

92:5,15,16 95:2

96:14 99:14

106:3,4 122:8

133:20 135:15

136:22 138:1

164:4 196:15

300:8 301:3

302:3

amazing 53:17

264:5 292:15

ambient 17:21

254:15

ambiguity 250:22

amenable 109:22

amendments

252:3

American 3:11

among 91:12

94:12

amongst 210:6

amount 91:5

158:18 161:3

227:14,21

284:13,15,17

286:9 289:20

Amrane 2:5 28:13

30:11 34:13

39:11 45:9 49:19

63:1 68:10,12

75:13,17,19

76:2,6,10,19

87:21 93:17

94:10,16 114:9

117:9,22 127:12

128:8 130:17,19

139:21

143:10,12

152:21 153:5,22

163:10,19

164:4,19 165:1

192:15

199:17,19

206:8,12,16

215:4,7,16 216:5

232:1,7 236:9

238:21 239:3

240:1,17

241:11,18

242:2,6,19 243:3

247:11 248:1,3

250:17

268:12,19 269:7

271:13 272:1

283:7 285:10

292:19

295:11,13,20,22

296:4

analysis 171:9

ancient 12:5

animal 90:14

announcement

71:3

annual 280:11

annuals 251:19

anomalies 223:1

answer 162:3,5

182:1 186:16

192:11 196:3

216:18 239:9

283:14

answering 30:9

anybody 15:11

21:14 23:7 24:17

53:18 77:19,21

171:1 194:10

248:5

anymore 110:1

anyone 28:6 47:17

78:14 92:18

118:11 277:1,3

281:4 297:13

anyone's 277:14

anything 67:5

76:17 77:6,20

78:12 92:18

98:14 101:10

110:14 128:3,18

133:21 166:1

172:2 175:9

192:7 197:4,11

198:1 203:19

213:11

214:4,5,16

218:16 223:7

232:12,14

247:13 253:13

265:22 267:8

277:1 294:7

297:14,16

298:13

anyway 62:18

125:12 140:12

208:4 225:6

227:14 260:4

295:18

anywhere 33:15

269:18

apart 193:18

194:12

apologize 41:16

43:9

app 124:1

apparent 221:4,10

apparently 223:1

appliance 1:6 30:4

applicable 8:5

19:14 79:6 104:3

223:13 238:7

263:14

application 10:13

16:8,16 18:5,9
Capital Reporting Company

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19:11 20:10 29:6

30:2 50:3 51:8

211:7 218:4

283:6

applications 17:15

70:2

applied 27:11

77:10

applies 41:10

apply 34:21 77:11

205:9

appointed 194:20

appreciate 94:15

169:19 209:12

235:4

approach 96:10

approaches 99:7

108:17

appropriate 43:21

192:19 271:17

approved 247:7

apricot 101:8

arbitrary 6:20

99:4 116:3

architectural

22:2,4

area 26:21 53:20

167:11 180:16

204:11

205:16,17

areas 46:14 51:14

120:2 234:3,9

aren't 8:4 72:15

96:1 164:10

282:20 289:11

argue 66:2 236:1

argued 267:3

arguing 265:13

argument 65:15

247:9

arguments 64:3,5

Aris 3:5

arms 277:10

Armstrong 2:6

156:16 160:4

163:2,5 166:22

167:4,7

168:10,13,17

169:2,13,22

170:15,19

172:11,17

173:3,8,14,18

174:1

175:7,18,22

176:22 177:11

180:22

181:4,9,11,13,16

182:20 183:5,12

207:10 214:22

215:2 216:18

217:1,6,13,18

218:10 219:9

220:5 221:17

222:8,16 223:6

236:3,12

239:8,18

240:2,11,21

249:10,18,22

250:4,7,19

251:15

252:13,21

253:12,19 254:4

258:3,8,17

259:2,10

260:2,10 272:3,6

278:19,22

279:10 283:22

ascended 193:18

Ash 223:3

Ashley 2:6 62:5,8

156:16 163:1

170:13 181:3,18

183:3,7 215:1

236:3 249:21

252:11 258:19

279:9

Ashley's 207:8

ASHRAE 30:11

60:13 62:17

179:19 244:20

aspect 284:14

aspects 56:21

Assessment

194:13

assigned 116:2

117:2,7

assisted 167:15

associate 95:17

assume 102:17

217:3 230:15

251:7

assumed 169:21

230:5

assuming 158:5

166:16 192:20

assumptions 158:7

assured 281:16

asterisk 57:1

79:15 89:4

105:17 107:16

120:5

122:5,18,20

asterisks 79:5

80:15,17,18

87:11,17 88:2

89:6 104:22

105:8 113:6

121:1,2,10 288:9

ator 124:9,19

attach 18:16

attached 22:3

attachment 47:2

attention 76:9

90:15 281:13

attentive 192:21

attenuators 130:2

attributing 294:8

audit 57:9 296:10

August 71:3,6,17

authored 133:16

authority 195:2

authorized 55:20

auto 223:3

automatic

258:12,17,18,21

259:3,8

automatically

151:3,13 219:18

222:7 290:4

automotives 84:3

availability 136:6

available 24:8

57:12 58:16

113:10 116:10

117:1 136:7

137:12 144:12

191:13 233:10

246:20 254:19

263:18 269:10

270:21 271:2

Avenue 1:10

average 212:2

aware 72:19

away 61:13 188:21

awful 6:8 161:6

B
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

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baby 163:1

backflips 275:18

276:21

backup 234:12

backwards 86:22

223:16

bad 9:13 59:9

172:20

balance 233:17

Ballo 2:7 116:13

157:13,14

183:9,13

184:1,7,10

189:17 190:13

191:8 192:20

193:2 262:13,21

263:7,12 265:10

bang 237:12

Bard 3:10

bare 278:7

Barhydt 2:8

5:2,19

6:11,13,15,22

7:11 8:1

9:10,12,22 10:5

15:1,3 17:4,10

21:13,21

22:10,18,21

23:1,6,9 24:19

25:2 27:19 28:1

30:20 31:3,11,22

32:10

33:14,17,20

34:2,7,17 36:20

37:5,17 38:4

40:8,16,18

43:1,10 44:1

45:12,20 46:1,4

47:17 50:9,12,15

53:14,21

54:10,20

55:2,12,16 57:11

58:20 62:11

65:22 66:3,7

67:9,13,16,21

68:6 69:11,17,19

70:9,14,18,20

71:2,6,10,13,16,

22 72:3,5,8

73:2,5,10,13

76:21 77:2,18

78:8,21

79:7,16,22 80:5

81:8,13,16

82:15,17,19

84:8,20

85:6,9,14,17

87:9,14,17,20

88:3 89:7,20

91:1 92:3,21

93:3,12

94:3,17,21

95:3,7,11 97:2,6

99:11,18

100:2,20

101:5,10

102:8,12,20

103:2,4

104:2,15,17

105:14,19

106:2,15

107:6,14,21

108:9 109:3,15

111:20

112:1,4,8,10,15,

18 113:13,17

114:6 115:16

119:12,16,19

120:8,11,16,22

121:13,18

122:2,8,14,17,22

123:5,12,15

124:13

125:3,13,15,19

126:5,12,16,19

127:3,9,16

128:4,7,9,12,16

129:1 130:4,7

131:5,8 132:20

133:2,5,14,17

134:2,15,17

135:7 136:21

139:3,8,11

140:15,19

142:19,22

143:11,13

144:4,14 146:5,9

147:5,13,20

148:1,4,8,15,20

149:20

150:10,15,17,19

153:3,6 154:3,13

156:12 157:5,20

159:17 160:10

162:2,10,13,20

163:7,17

164:7,16,21

165:5,9,11,17,19

,22

166:3,6,8,11,15,

20 167:2,5,8,18

168:1,5,15,22

169:3,11 170:4,9

171:18,22 172:8

173:11,16

174:13,16,20

175:5,9,15

176:18

178:17,22

179:6,9,17

180:2,7,10,15,21

182:9

185:1,6,12,22

186:4,11,13,15,1

8,20 187:4,10

188:13,17,20

189:5,13,16,19

190:3,9,16

192:22

196:17,19,21

197:3,8,10,19,22

198:3 199:18

200:1,5,11,14,19

,22

201:8,12,14,18

202:3,6,12,19,22

203:3,15,17

204:4,8,14,17,21

206:11,20

207:9,11

208:1,6,9,14

209:7,14,20,22

210:9,17,20

211:8

212:3,7,10,14,18

,21 213:3,14,17

214:2,4,7,16,19

215:1,6,10,14,18

216:9,16,22

217:5,8,12

218:11,16,20

219:1,5,8

223:11,18

224:1,11 225:8

226:18 227:2,9

228:9,13,16,19

229:2,6 230:8

231:2 232:9,11

233:2,12,22

237:20 238:16

239:2,4

241:14,21

242:3,8 243:1,16

244:6 248:10

249:2,5 250:1

251:12 252:14

254:5,9,12,16

255:10,14

256:3,20,22

257:19 258:22

259:4,7,11,15

260:8,17,21

261:2,9

262:5,11,20

263:3,9,21

264:1,4

267:8,12,16,20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

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268:2,8

274:12,14,19

275:2,5,9,20

276:9,22

278:18,21 279:8

280:3,6

282:10,18

283:12,16,20

287:22 288:21

290:3

293:3,14,18,22

294:20 295:19

296:2,12,19

298:8,11,16,22

barometric

254:10,11

base 101:17

156:17,22

159:17 203:13

230:15 238:19

252:17,19,21

253:20 254:2

255:6,8,10,17

based 13:21 79:1

88:8 92:4 124:1

135:16 139:20

140:11 169:1

170:5,9 198:12

199:4

207:3,11,13

216:12 226:19

230:17 238:3

240:19 250:18

262:1 268:21

basic 12:15 31:19

32:20 36:16,19

37:3,6,8

54:12,15,16,18

55:9

58:13,15,16,17,1

8 70:15 72:3

77:7 78:9,15

79:4

80:2,11,16,21

81:11,17,19,22

82:4 84:9 88:11

90:18,19 96:13

99:11,22

100:3,5,14,22

101:5,7,17,18,21

102:2,17,20

103:1,5,8,10

104:18 105:13

106:14,19

107:12,19

109:4,6,9

110:3,21 111:1

112:20 113:1,14

116:2,7 117:8

120:6,11,20

122:1,2,7,13,15

123:3 132:4

137:20 138:9

150:22 160:15

161:5,6,8 177:14

198:21 202:3

203:1

207:3,12,13

238:3 254:22

283:10,13,14

basically 11:20

23:14,18 25:6

46:13 53:19

65:16 66:1

67:15,18 68:21

69:5 116:4

147:21 185:17

186:4 213:21

219:12 227:17

230:12 231:15

276:7

basics 160:22

basis 193:1 205:7

Bauman 2:9 103:6

104:3,16

107:10,17

190:18

200:2,6,13,18,21

201:6,10,13,17

202:2,5,11,15,21

203:2

204:1,2,6,10,16,

20,22 205:10

206:14

207:8,16,17

208:5,8,11,16,17

209:8 220:20

222:3,10

224:14,20,22

225:10,21

226:22 227:7,21

228:4,6 237:15

282:22 291:9

292:6

beasts 46:16

became 55:6

become 48:9

260:14 272:17

273:12

becomes 110:5

164:18 240:18

beer 281:21

beginning 216:20

287:3

behind 54:14

215:13

belief 160:8

believe 9:19 146:2

155:7,15 165:6

175:20 178:20

179:3,4 219:15

243:5 284:18

298:21

believed 160:12

believes 70:10

benefit 27:2,6

49:19 54:6 56:1

192:13 221:9

Benoit 1:18

beside 30:15

besides 72:13

273:6

best 42:13 220:16

241:17 298:6

bet 25:11 29:18

better 13:13 49:4

54:2 57:6 60:3

104:3 171:9

196:15 249:16

beverage 219:7

beyond 170:15

199:1

bigger 37:21

39:7,9 45:7 75:3

bill 98:14 116:4

217:2,9

billed 98:14

billing 287:6

bills 90:5

biomedical 218:19

bird 55:15

bit 17:8 47:5 91:14

155:13 193:16

195:2,22

196:3,13 249:20

264:2

black 80:9

blank 159:2

blind 296:11

298:6,10

bloc 245:15

block 12:6

blower

129:13,14,19

130:5,11 132:6,9

137:18

138:5,6,10 151:8
Capital Reporting Company

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159:13

blunt 193:16

board 50:17,20

147:12

Bob 43:13,14

45:15 46:2 83:16

92:22 111:20

113:6 118:4

141:17 244:11

264:20

boiler 16:16 18:11

151:17,21

boilers 37:2

146:10,15

149:18 150:13

163:8 164:2

167:8 178:8

180:12 186:21

292:15

bolt-on 21:10,11

book 154:12

169:12 172:9

boost 28:15

51:3,18 52:16

Bosenberg 2:10

bother 283:1

bottom 13:10

16:17 46:19

126:10 231:19

253:3 256:6

bought 104:6

131:9 134:2,18

243:7 282:11

297:17

bound 247:19

249:8

bounds 157:21

box 47:3 56:16

133:8 141:11

232:22

boxes 216:20

276:11

brackets 79:5

brand 80:16,21

81:2,3 113:14

115:6

break 38:9,10

44:13 66:5,6

70:19,20,22 81:3

138:8 188:14

204:17

breaking 44:15

81:20

breaks 44:8

bride 29:10

brief 71:1

briefly 282:3

bring 58:6 63:15

203:9 217:6

228:10 281:7,8

287:2

bringing 60:14

brings 281:13

broad 37:3

brought 8:8 59:5

74:5 95:15

202:17

Brown 2:11

43:13,15 45:15

Btu 32:16,17

33:13

36:2,4,6,12

37:10 42:16

43:17,19,20

44:11 66:16

138:2,7,10,11

141:20 144:10

145:2 205:7

229:17 231:5

bubble 244:15

buck 237:12

build 12:10 60:21

86:1 95:21 102:6

106:7 124:7

141:22 142:2

293:22 297:15

building 1:11

29:15 57:19

93:20 119:3,7

221:14 265:7

buildings 20:11

built 29:16 53:8

90:1,8 97:15

103:22 110:15

152:19 216:3

221:8,16 222:7

297:1,2

bullet 14:21,22

15:21 17:2

172:16 185:7

187:13 229:14

230:22 231:19

232:15 252:15

267:11 278:2

bullets 132:18

231:4 252:15

278:3

bunch 7:2 56:18

72:14 276:9

burden 105:8

136:1,16 198:16

199:15 206:2

208:7 291:14,20

burned 261:19

burner 137:7

business 98:11

111:14,15

115:6,12 148:12

247:14 274:3

275:14

276:13,19

277:13,14

280:11 286:18

buttons 149:8

buy 100:8,9

103:12

122:18,19 133:2

135:8,19 142:2

145:5 153:4

154:4 166:11

172:5 244:21

280:21 281:22

282:20 286:4

297:10

buying 96:14

237:12 285:18

buys 24:10

bypass 148:14

149:3 150:8

151:12 264:12

266:18

C

CA 145:20

cabinet 17:8

103:13

cacophony 91:11

calculate 138:11

217:11 228:1

calculated 14:3

calculation

13:9,19 14:4

26:2 52:11 171:6

calendar 71:20

California 47:8

265:6

capabilities

221:19

capacities 37:3

42:12 268:14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

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279:11

capacity

32:6,8,15,18,21

33:3,6,7

39:11,21 40:8,11

41:1,9,10,20

42:2,8,22 45:10

129:4 146:11

151:8 167:9

180:13 185:9

195:15

229:11,19

230:4,10,16,18

238:3,5,6

248:13,14 249:1

250:18 267:21

268:18,21

271:15 278:9

279:9,14 291:4

Capital 1:18

capture 88:4,6,11

94:4 95:6

CAR 215:15

care 92:9

184:13,16

190:12 217:15

carefully 296:15

caressed 296:16

carried 6:20

carrier 3:22

116:16

cartwheels 276:21

case 14:9 52:4 64:9

66:4 81:6,9

83:18 88:17,21

97:7 106:8,17

107:22 109:1

123:9 141:13

144:15,22 159:1

184:17 199:6

202:18

203:14,16

204:12 205:4,8

206:19 220:6

224:4 227:16

237:1 263:12

284:9

cases 65:18,19

80:6 88:21

134:17 206:5

209:1 210:3,4

216:2 217:14

225:6 226:19

228:11

251:19,21 252:5

255:16 281:9

293:10

295:14,18 296:1

cassette 11:18 12:3

catch 207:6 217:19

category 158:22

216:1 263:15

cause 13:2 23:18

192:12 275:19

causes 281:14

CEE 114:8

ceiling 193:4

central 245:18

246:10

certain 17:18,21

44:5,11 60:4,5

76:14 118:20

122:3 129:7

149:1 158:6

160:14 191:9

194:3 210:5

217:14 218:1

220:8 224:5

227:12 245:3

254:1 261:22

262:22 266:2

291:5

certainly 18:11

37:5 47:4 114:17

124:21 137:4

160:6 195:15

221:19

CERTIFICATE

300:1 301:1

302:1

certification

78:13,15,22

80:19 100:22

105:5 119:17

132:14 142:17

177:6 188:22

248:8 269:1,2

certifications

127:17

certified 75:16,17

76:10 105:1,3

119:12 132:5,15

137:9 177:7

203:20,21

241:20 242:22

244:2,13 245:6,7

246:12

certify 106:20

138:7 178:9

207:3,11,13

241:16 242:16

300:5 301:3

302:3

certifying 206:12

242:4

cetera 220:15

CFM 63:7 230:15

254:6 290:10

CFR 126:3

chain 136:6 296:9

297:9

challenge 47:21

243:1,7

chamber 292:4,5

293:8

chance 154:19

217:7

Chances 153:8

change 32:2 45:16

60:4 72:20

94:1,4 98:6

115:7,11 123:17

126:13 128:12

136:14 154:10

161:22 173:12

174:14 188:6

192:2,7,8 195:9

213:10,12

216:19,20 278:6

284:11,12

291:3,5

changed 192:5,6

197:6 211:10,21

295:3

changes

147:2,12,13

175:10 192:7

211:13 291:2

changing 38:6

111:5 115:12

151:9,12 235:5

257:7

character 79:11

88:19 90:9

characteristics

252:22

characterize 82:4

characters 86:9

87:14 88:14,18

92:1 93:3,8,9

110:22 116:5

charge 224:5

226:20

227:4,6,8,11,14,

15,21,22 228:15

237:15 251:18

252:6
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charged 51:7

228:7 252:6

charging 225:8

227:18 238:18

251:14,16

Charles 2:17

Charlie

209:15,21,22

210:15 213:3,15

216:13 221:18

chase 255:1

check 116:6

186:5,7 212:3

227:22 241:9

242:19 261:7

269:3

checked 110:9

242:21

checking 242:8

chilled 198:10

Chinese 90:5

choice 135:11

232:19 248:21

choices 232:22

choose 123:3

245:14

chooses 37:4

Chorus 44:22

circuit 5:13

266:21,22

circulates 11:1

circulation 11:1

13:2

circulator 12:1

claim 54:3,5,12

58:14,18

clarification 229:9

clarify 79:10 170:1

249:17

clarifying 103:7

class 62:17 113:13

139:20 195:13

223:5

classes 98:22

classification

100:14

classroom 22:11

clause 185:20

clear 58:21 105:14

108:15 123:17

126:14 135:16

217:20 226:17

251:17

clearly 99:9

Clements 2:12

ClimateMasters

4:4 8:11,18 9:8

13:5 21:3 32:15

35:22 63:13

close 29:6 40:2

closed 16:15 200:4

Co 2:21 3:6

coated 16:5

59:17,18 63:17

65:8 67:18 68:3

110:6,13,15

122:10,12,19

255:12

coated/uncoated

109:22

coaxial 26:21 42:5

code 83:21 112:22

116:4 117:2

118:12 121:6

159:9,12

161:21,22

codes 117:6

265:3,6,7

cognizant 86:20

coil 14:1,2,8 15:22

16:8,10 23:16,20

25:8,13 26:6

37:20 40:14 41:8

42:6,7 51:7 56:2

57:20 59:9,17,18

63:17 65:8 67:10

77:5 110:6,13,15

122:10,19

238:17

coils 16:5 37:19

39:18,19 42:19

67:18 68:3

255:13

coin 219:6

coincidence 30:14

cold 18:13,15 92:9

234:8 235:6

collateral 193:20

collect 94:9 131:9

164:8 165:12,13

169:13 216:17

236:16 238:2,7

239:11

collecting 216:12

238:14 240:8

collectively 241:4

Collin 3:21 214:8

column 6:19

127:1,21 128:6

255:19

combination

159:15

combinations

159:5

combine 296:7

combined 30:4

108:21

combustion

146:10 167:15

180:19 182:16

comeback 141:7

comes 11:8 42:19

101:22 118:17

133:8,9 136:5

225:12 242:13

261:6 268:22

comfort 289:13

comfortable

124:21 288:14

coming 44:3 46:10

47:11 48:5,22

51:6 52:13 56:1

64:17 145:2

196:6 208:3

288:6

comma 187:16

comment 69:21

161:18 214:6

228:22 243:20

245:19 258:19

264:20 278:1

287:12

comments 98:18

125:17 229:13

251:12

commerce 92:18

105:12

commercial 5:17

18:1,10 20:10,11

29:4,6,15 30:2

31:12 38:15,22

39:6 45:3 56:11

66:14,16,18,19,2

2 67:2 78:16

129:2 133:11

137:1,20 139:5

141:20 142:16

146:9,15 150:13
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211:16 231:14

234:19,20

237:8,10 293:16

294:2 295:19

296:8

commercially

25:11,12,15 48:2

233:10

263:17,18

committed 215:8

committee 1:7

74:14

commodity 195:18

common 55:10

96:10,12

commonalities

191:3

commonality

210:6

communicate

99:21 120:17

147:10,11

communication

285:3,4

community 194:5

companies

65:18,20 91:12

95:16 155:19

210:8 277:5

289:11

company 1:18

2:19 3:10 46:11

48:14 155:1,3,4

191:7 245:21

277:6,8

comparable

32:15,17 33:11

37:15 40:13,14

41:7,10 42:19,22

50:10 77:3

compare 117:17

compared 15:14

comparison 35:5

246:1

compartment

198:11

compete 64:22

68:16

competing 65:1,4

competitor 65:8

191:1 242:15

competitors

108:16 221:12

272:12 273:6

278:15

competitor's 243:7

complain 66:8

complete 44:17

241:17 242:5

247:18 301:8

302:8

completely 110:16

161:19 220:18

240:21

complex 86:7 90:1

compliance 232:12

compliant 174:7

207:15

comply 101:15

185:17

component 49:9

291:6

components 5:12

41:8 42:11 256:7

269:22 291:3

comprehensive

159:21

compressor 23:16

25:6,7 37:16,19

39:19 40:3,14

42:4 142:7 152:9

253:9 259:19

265:2 266:7,21

269:21 270:2

284:9 291:6

compressors 39:3

41:8 42:20

264:8,9,13,14

265:5 266:1

computer 90:2

97:11 141:11

143:16 147:11

256:10

con 124:11,15,16

concept 97:1 198:4

216:12 240:22

245:1

conceptually

162:2,4 201:20

concern 44:2

148:10 156:2

192:1,16 193:16

195:8 206:5

241:18

242:11,17 244:3

286:19

concerned 241:19

247:14

concerning 164:18

concerns 193:9,13

198:13 208:19

209:6 287:18

concluded 299:3

condensable 14:21

condensate 73:20

condenser 5:11

8:8 9:3,17 10:8

13:22 16:5

23:11,13,20 24:2

37:20 41:8 50:22

51:2,10,11,13,18

52:13 56:1,3

72:6,21

73:1,18,21

227:13

condensing 40:14

59:12,14

129:16,17

151:17,21 152:2

216:17

condition 27:1

53:4 75:14 76:5

131:20 151:10

237:3 257:6

266:14 270:3

conditioner 130:1

conditioners 267:9

conditioning

28:16

66:15,17,18,20,2

2 67:3

conditions

17:19,21 52:15

54:1 58:8 159:7

186:9 187:13

254:13,14,15

257:2 260:9,19

273:4

conduct 144:7

222:13 223:21

224:1

confident 237:18

confidential

273:11,13

274:4,8,13,16

275:12,14

276:8,10,12

277:13,14

configuration

83:17 97:11

106:6,7

110:6,12,17
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131:14 137:14

253:22

configurations

106:10

configurator 83:7

85:12 86:13 97:1

124:2,7,22

configurators

117:20

configure 89:10

124:10,16

configured 90:1

confirm 125:11

146:2 181:18

217:2

confirmation

181:20

confused 113:21

177:17 191:17

235:9

confusing 225:16

Congress

193:3,5,17,22

194:15 215:4

216:5

connect 257:18

connecting 58:1

cons 246:12

consequences

191:9

conservative

107:21

consider 36:19

37:15 163:12

209:12

considerably 44:9

consideration

209:3

consistent 179:2

console 22:8

consoles 22:7

constantly 151:9

construction

176:15,17

Consulting 2:3,15

3:9,19,21

consumer 256:18

275:16

consumers 245:21

consumption 57:3

106:8 151:12

191:5 198:10,13

199:8 200:15

201:4,21,22

202:1,10,12

203:7,22

204:2,3,18,19,20

205:14,16

214:10,11,12

consumptive

107:20,21

108:3,4

contact 147:10

148:17,18 153:2

192:18 260:4

contacting 154:1

289:8

contained 119:9

211:16

contains 110:13

context 18:10

194:6,18 196:4,9

198:6 199:12

282:3

continue 257:5

Continued 3:1,2

4:1,2

continuous

210:3,4 216:1

contracts

153:14,16

control 5:13 16:11

104:11 149:7

150:7 151:17

152:16 160:22

161:9,20

162:12,15,18

163:9 221:8

222:7 223:7

238:19 256:7,10

261:16,18,22

262:3 263:2,3,19

266:14 294:6

controlled 47:11

147:3 219:18

220:14

controller 148:19

295:3

controllers 152:4

221:20 264:11

controlling 265:2

controls 150:5,8

151:18,20

220:22

222:19,20

223:20 261:14

266:16,18 284:7

292:12

convention 44:12

conversation

91:2,16 94:19

169:20 195:12

220:22 249:19

250:2

convinced 53:5

coolant 40:15 41:9

cooldown 59:6

cooled 5:6 63:8

66:16,17,19,20,2

1 67:1,3,4 70:14

72:4,6,7,20,22

73:3,5,15 75:15

76:21

cooler 49:9 56:17

cooling 2:16 20:12

31:6 46:22

47:10,21

48:15,20 49:20

50:22 51:1,18

138:3,4 142:3

229:11 230:10

238:2 248:12,14

268:21 270:18

279:8,10

cools 47:10 59:8

co-ops 234:11

COP 270:10

271:21

copied 72:8

copies 7:11

copy 162:1

Corey 3:19 5:6

172:9 173:12

211:10 268:17

corporation

3:12,22 289:7

correct 5:18 12:11

24:5 27:8,9

37:22 50:8 51:21

68:7 92:21

102:19 107:15

127:2 132:15,22

139:20 165:21

166:5,10 169:17

172:21 173:3,20

174:1 183:2

187:3,7 188:10

200:13 229:1

248:17 268:19

273:20 301:7
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302:7

correctly 51:5

52:19 106:5

272:6

corrosionresistant 15:22

16:8,10

cost 73:18 292:16

costly 284:20

costs 11:16 111:17

Council 3:11

counter 214:18

216:10

country 13:16

46:15 280:18

couple 11:12 13:12

64:3 68:4 98:17

170:20 222:17

course 52:18 76:13

207:7

Court 300:1,3,17

301:3,6 302:3,6

courtesy 240:13

cover 42:13 66:13

88:12 159:18

217:20 288:17

covered 28:1

49:17 51:13

58:13 67:15,16

75:7,20 109:14

121:22 122:7

123:2 214:17

217:17 218:21

221:3,11 225:22

232:8,13 240:9

covering 61:22

138:6

covers 15:19 58:22

218:6,19 220:2

225:16

CRAC 67:21,22

crammed 88:1

CRE 98:22 103:14

108:16 188:21

196:19 198:3,4,6

199:3 206:21

218:17 219:11

223:19

cream 211:3,4,8

213:8

create 58:15

261:16

created 262:4

CREs 198:12

199:22

criminal 242:1

criteria

182:11,13,18

183:19,21

184:14,22

185:18 187:4

critic 297:19,20

cross 280:8

crossover 29:12,15

30:1

CSA 3:15

cupronickel 16:4,9

curious 133:21

current 27:5 91:5

136:6 139:9,10

198:9 251:4

currently 78:17

115:1 119:20

129:3 132:18

165:12,13

167:21 189:20

229:7 237:21

custom 48:13 64:7

78:3 98:11

101:18

customer 83:19

84:16,21

85:3,6,9 86:12

89:5 93:10

96:18,19

97:12,17 104:5

110:4 118:17

121:6 152:19

192:3 221:22

222:1 273:5

283:5 292:14

customers 56:16

82:7,13,20 84:14

90:3 101:19

164:2 273:7

282:22

customer-specific

10:16

customized 60:2

custom-made

296:4

customs 64:19

cyclic 151:6

Cymbalsky 2:13

6:10 9:13

15:2,4,7,13,20

21:16,19

28:5,11,14,20

30:5,8,13,16

31:7,9,15,18

32:3,12 35:7,12

38:8 40:10,17,20

41:4,12,18 49:11

50:16,18 59:17

62:10 63:2 66:5

68:1 92:8,12

106:17

107:3,15,18

108:1,8,10,19

110:18

111:7,10,13

143:2 166:7,13

175:2 179:21

182:8

183:3,7,15,19

184:12,19

187:12,18

210:22 211:3,5

215:9 218:21

219:2 225:11

226:7 232:13

235:3,8,22

236:19 237:17

242:10 245:16

247:16 269:5,11

271:4,11

273:14,16,20

274:3,10,13

277:21 280:20

281:20 288:2,7

289:22

290:4,8,12,16

292:3 296:13,17

297:2,5,7,22

D

D.C 1:12

Daikin 2:22

daily 198:10

214:10,11,12

damage 193:20

damper 137:5

167:14

179:15,16,17,19

180:3,19 182:15

Dane 2:14 189:21

190:4,11,17

191:17 208:12

210:13

218:13,15

darned 74:3

data 62:22 103:17

114:15 135:6

163:14 181:8
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287:5,16 291:11

database 93:21

99:5 113:11

116:2 118:18

126:2 269:5

278:20

279:7,12,14,19,2

0,21 280:2

date 162:22

225:19 301:14

302:13

Dave 4:3 6:13

Dave's 27:17

day 35:3 46:12

51:8 59:15

110:19 119:4

251:5 285:8

286:21 287:16

289:2,3 290:3

days 276:16,18

286:13,16,18

288:17

deal 46:13 53:17

102:8,10,12

115:11 217:16

234:16

251:11,13

dealing 98:22

December 215:7

decide 136:9

279:16

decided 142:19

207:18

decides 161:20

declaration 167:19

declarations

167:17

declare 221:15

decoder 83:6

116:17

decoding 117:5

decrease 291:4

dedicated 60:6,16

62:1,20 63:8

deemed 184:6

default 140:4

179:2 290:17

defaults 290:9

defeated 61:12

defensive 280:19

define 77:7 96:13

defined 33:16,20

176:4

definitely 42:12

156:22

definition 23:21

24:3,21 32:20,22

33:8,11 39:12

42:17,20,21

45:17 46:5,7

70:15 76:22

77:17,21 91:15

212:7 218:22

219:2 238:3

definitions 5:5

42:18 176:4,8

definitive 252:9

Degitz 2:15 62:19

degradation 13:3

degree 251:18

degrees 233:16,17

237:2 262:8

dehumidification

18:22 57:21,22

58:5

dehumidify 23:18

53:3 58:2

delay 223:5

demand 25:14

demonstrate

210:11

denominator

55:11

Department 1:4,9

2:6,8,13 3:5 56:8

57:5 61:22

64:5,9 68:20

99:13,21 105:10

120:17 146:12

190:22 191:6,11

208:10 243:12

255:21 274:6,17

280:14

Department's 66:9

depend 194:22

233:18

dependent 29:1

depending 10:13

18:14 51:7 88:22

170:6 250:21

284:8

depends 61:7

233:17 236:22

describe 5:14

88:15 220:16

described 34:4,5

83:18 113:6

150:6

describing 79:17

200:8

description 15:13

31:20 90:17

109:18,20 113:2

226:19

design 40:2 154:10

167:1,2 176:8

181:4 189:21

191:2 233:20

designate 99:13

designated 127:14

224:8

designation

122:16 126:15

238:20 252:17

253:20

designed 149:11

151:8,11 190:8

designers 19:5

designs 220:17

desire 178:2

destruction 281:17

desuperheater

25:13 29:1

Desuperheaters

24:19 25:5

detail 92:1 119:2

146:20

detailed 171:9

details 48:6 162:3

determinable

139:19

determination

150:3 178:5

determine 134:1

181:21 230:17

determined 176:7

182:3 183:17

273:18

determining

132:22

developed 190:21

191:2

development

280:16

developmental
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293:13

deviation 136:10

device 180:4

288:10

devoting 91:14

diameter 137:8

138:15 143:17

Diane 2:21

dictionary 124:5

difference 39:1

42:8 121:15

132:17 137:17

150:10 158:22

178:1 202:19

217:9 228:5

231:4 238:13

245:4 253:18

254:6

differences 289:5

different 5:5 30:8

36:14 37:14

39:22 40:1 42:12

46:2,16 51:11

54:11,12,16 55:9

60:12,18 64:1,21

67:5 69:18,19,20

75:19 79:19

80:1,8,10 81:18

82:1,2,6,22

84:12 88:21 92:1

96:7,19,20 98:8

102:1 104:20

106:9

108:12,15,17,22

109:4,11,12,13

110:16 112:12

114:12 121:17

132:6,9 138:5,9

149:14,17

156:13 157:6,7

161:2,20 167:10

169:16 182:20

183:6 189:11

190:5 191:16

202:7 203:6

210:18 219:13

220:9,15 223:14

225:16 227:15

228:3,22 237:7

239:20 245:7

246:16 247:9

249:11,18 251:5

252:7,8 257:8

261:19 262:3

264:13 265:8

267:1 282:13

284:7 285:19

292:9 296:9

298:1

differentiate 79:21

82:5,12 85:1

219:22

differently 63:11

68:15

difficult 53:22

120:2

difficulties 119:22

difficulty

118:13,16 120:2

157:5

digging 113:8

digit 82:8 84:16

85:5,18

Digital 300:17

digits 83:2,3,4,21

111:2 156:19

dinged 291:7

dip 149:14 238:19

256:6 272:10

278:13

direct 48:15,19

130:9,10 205:21

directed 25:8

direction 300:7

directly 100:13

208:21 214:21

directory 93:22

113:21

163:13,21

199:21 239:17

241:20

dirty 36:17

disagree 91:1

181:7

276:4,14,15

disallow 235:18

disappoint 258:7

discharge 17:7

21:8

disclaimers 244:7

discuss 93:19

110:1 223:13

discussed 22:1,12

46:18 123:10

160:7 198:5

discussing 48:7

137:16 160:1

173:13

discussion 15:9

53:12 79:1 94:11

114:10 156:9

165:20 177:1

208:16 240:16

251:5 258:15

281:21

discussions 79:2

88:8 154:8

208:17 282:4

displacement

171:10

display 204:11

205:4 239:11

269:16

displayed 269:18

displaying

238:12,14

displays 81:1

disproven 191:18

distance 20:9

distinguish 173:9

177:9

distribution

198:18 234:3

296:9

Distributors 297:6

diversity 99:7

divert 23:19

diverting 23:16

diverts 12:3

divide 37:7

205:15,17

doable 53:7

161:11

doctor's 29:13

document 95:22

162:1

documentation

176:6 184:20

documented

294:16

documents 131:16

DOE 13:14 14:22

32:19 70:7 78:17

86:18 88:12

89:12 90:10,17

91:19 95:22

117:2,7,10

121:15 129:2,5,7

132:16 153:14

154:20

163:20,22

164:3,17
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177:5,18 186:2

192:18,21

193:3,5

195:1,17,21

196:13 219:20

226:15 230:14

240:5,8 241:1,13

242:16 243:21

245:5,6

247:3,8,13

260:11 269:3

273:10 275:21

279:2 287:7,15

288:13 289:17

294:13 297:3

DOE-certified

244:5,8 245:4

DOE-listed 86:20

DOE's 36:22 81:1

230:9 251:1

dogs 280:13,14

281:12

domestic 25:1,8

dominant 20:11

dominated 20:12

done 10:14 25:15

31:13,15,16

42:15 48:13

51:3,5 59:4 68:9

111:3,4 133:18

142:18 213:20

257:16 261:21

276:13 284:15

286:15 288:19

door 80:8,9 210:6

doors 211:17,19

doubled 14:15,16

doubt 62:16 78:3

170:19 243:13

274:9,18

doubting 201:2

download 126:6

147:9,10

downloaded 147:9

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130:9,10 269:16

273:3

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235:16

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266:17

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duct 18:6 20:8,16

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earlier 92:15

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73:16

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77:19 78:7

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197:13 211:12
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212:1

either 21:5 33:5

41:20 51:2 73:12

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3:11

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194:5

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95:6 96:17 98:13

108:4 109:14

110:8 125:10

133:12 146:19

147:22 149:17
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157:11 159:15

161:12 199:12

202:1 203:7,14

214:20 225:19

226:9 232:6

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example 68:15

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examples 59:10

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fabulous 235:1

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2:2

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191:5

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180:19 182:16

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240:6,14 241:22

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feds 240:9

feed 90:14

feedback 5:8

102:15 129:18

feel 92:17

feeling 24:15

feels 117:3
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feet 204:5

felt 163:3

FEMALE 7:6,9

71:5 163:1

fewer 11:15

field 10:9,12,20

11:11 12:10

13:11 48:4,10

49:10 60:5 65:6

76:20 89:4

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164:11 194:22

field-installed

11:16

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116:18 155:18

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figured 13:9 98:1

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figures 155:11

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filling 208:7

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81:13 117:11

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218:14,15

236:12 239:13

253:1 271:13

280:5

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196:20

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196:21

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64:4 72:1 79:16

83:17 84:11

88:18 110:22

112:20 124:15

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229:14 231:4,14

244:7 248:12

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297:16

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101:1 143:19

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273:12 286:18

288:17 291:10

five-ton 118:2

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172:13

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flesh 226:11

flexibility 82:2

158:2 207:22

flies 246:15

flipping 10:4

flips 275:19

float 251:2

floor 194:8

flow 12:2 14:1,2

32:5,8 49:15

51:9 56:3 230:14

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205:5,8

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26:2,7,14,18

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52:4,6 53:11,12

58:12,22 59:5,11

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72:6,10,12,14,18

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foregoing 299:2

300:4

foregoing/

attached 301:7

302:7

forever 47:8

273:19
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forget 9:20

form 48:7 185:16

208:9 274:20

former 48:14

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267:5

forty-three 44:19

forward 6:20

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108:17

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fourth 142:6

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296:22

frame 179:1

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96:4 100:17

105:21 109:16

111:22 114:17

118:10 121:3,20

126:9 127:5

133:20 135:2

136:18 137:22

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282:1 284:3

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213:8

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253:3,8

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154:18,22

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236:20

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90:17,20 91:15

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fundamental

46:17

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47:3

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137:1,9,21 138:7

139:5 141:20

142:5 143:18

145:10 146:16

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129:2

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129:12,16

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G

gallons 167:9

175:11,12 178:8

180:13 182:6

185:3 186:21

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200:11,20

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29:17

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getting 27:2 37:13

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97:14 98:3

102:15 111:9

118:4 135:3

143:7 159:21

203:6 262:16

271:5 273:5

288:22 294:5
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297:12

GH-035 1:11

Gingrich's 194:12

given 193:13 230:5

250:21 272:17

gives 11:15 14:6

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221:12

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160:21 163:12

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237:17

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goals 99:6

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gold-plated

297:12

gone 5:3,16 10:6

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253:16

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241:22 242:4

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64:8 79:12 93:20

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242:11 244:2,3

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habit 43:6

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45:21

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188:11 200:9

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212:16 289:22

happy 77:17 92:16

251:9

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152:20 264:21

277:11 295:15

harm 292:20

293:2

Harvey 3:11 6:18

11:10 13:10

15:22 18:8 28:5

30:15 50:16,19

51:15 54:7 73:19

90:13 91:2,19

98:17 116:9

123:16 133:6

154:7 178:19

179:14 193:15

212:10 244:12

245:12 262:7

Harvey's 110:18
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hassles 192:12

hat 69:4

haven't 5:3 19:22

52:1 98:1 197:22

198:5 214:18

having 18:9 25:14

47:7 51:16 81:22

83:6 91:3 122:16

142:7 167:8

178:8 180:12

182:12 186:21

221:16 243:9

246:10 247:8

272:12 275:12

279:17

head 34:12 41:13

52:12 252:11

header 188:7

274:7,17

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136:19 163:1

213:16

heard 96:11 99:20

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188:17 198:13

286:9 298:21

hearing 44:5 91:11

109:17 117:3

150:11,12 154:8

heat 3:17 8:4

11:19,21,22 12:3

16:15

17:14,17,18 18:4

19:7,13 24:22

25:8 26:21 28:8

29:5 42:5 47:6

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235:14,15

236:20 237:2,4,5

267:22 268:1,18

270:19 272:2

heater 18:6

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151:22 166:5,9

170:13 176:5

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heaters

17:5,6,11,14

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227:9 233:12

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272:4 280:3

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192:13 210:19
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lawyer 196:15

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levels 60:18

195:5,10 261:20

281:13

liberty 192:2

life 180:1

lift 106:6

light 56:10 167:13

180:18 205:8

lights 205:5,6

likely 55:4 205:22

limit 44:10

87:18,20 262:21

limited 199:17

limiting 37:18

limits 195:20

limit-wise 149:3

line 8:17 13:11

16:17 42:7 45:21

46:19 60:12

69:16 120:22

161:13

162:21,22

176:12 180:4

200:6

linear 203:14

205:6,21

lines 112:2 125:6

162:19 234:3,13

link 106:13 160:20

linked 84:1

100:15,16

191:10

links 201:19

203:4,5

LISA 301:3,14

list 8:2,13,15 12:21

31:5 41:7 66:14

81:19 88:20

126:10 128:20

129:10

140:11,13

159:21 177:7,14

180:13 215:20

221:13 230:6

233:2 236:8

238:17 247:19

271:17 272:18

listed 39:17 67:7

76:5 86:18,21

87:2 92:19,20

101:21 126:3

189:16 192:17

279:5

listen 63:16

listing 102:17

103:21

literally 16:20

20:7 42:6 65:14

69:6 106:6

literature 100:8

103:19 149:1

239:21 240:7

246:21 247:2

little 15:14 17:8

84:12 88:21

91:14 149:17

155:9,13 163:18

193:16 195:2,22

196:3,13

199:18,22

218:12 235:8

244:14 249:20

264:2 280:14

288:9

LLC 3:4

load 205:7 253:9

266:3,10

loads 12:2

location 227:12

246:10

Lochinvar 3:3

95:14 165:2

168:3

lock 158:14

locked 110:22

logic 43:22

long 11:11

45:10,16 64:19

66:14 86:16,18

87:14 88:20

93:10 110:7

120:12 148:3

151:7,14 182:13

190:11 195:11

215:20 257:11
Capital Reporting Company

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267:3 272:8

273:2 274:11

282:16,19

longer 23:18

82:11,12,21

195:10 213:4

257:13 266:13

288:22

loop 11:20 12:4

16:15,16 25:1,20

26:6

loops 16:11

lose 115:8

loss 14:18 167:10

169:8 179:5,12

182:13,17

183:18 184:2,6

185:21

186:10,19

187:2,11,16

losses 42:8

lost 132:16 174:13

lot 6:8 13:13 18:16

43:3 46:13

48:6,13,19 51:19

52:21,22 60:21

64:8 65:19

76:8,16 81:8

106:9

111:13,17,18

121:1 137:19

142:3 149:1

152:18 159:18

161:1,2,6 164:8

189:21 192:12

193:21 194:4,16

196:15 203:6

206:5 221:5

223:14 225:12

226:22 237:11

238:8 251:17

266:13 267:1,4,5

271:2 276:6

280:16 281:9,14

285:12,14

286:2,6 293:10

lots 22:7 60:12

63:12 88:2 269:6

loudly 163:11

love 119:21 120:1

278:15

lovely 155:9

low 12:2 24:11

200:15,16

201:1,13,22

202:9,20 205:11

211:6

lower 40:6 234:7

264:17 295:21

lowest 55:10 107:4

132:11,12

159:19 218:3

low-priced 195:18

loyal 170:18

lunch 14:21

188:14,15 189:3

195:12 196:22

M

ma'am 235:4

magnitude 118:6

main 12:1

maintain 249:13

261:22 284:16

289:18

maintaining

151:10 284:11

285:13

maintenance

289:20

major 99:5

majority 279:17

makeup 74:8

MALE 5:21 6:3,5

7:14,16 14:15,19

19:13 22:7 34:15

45:22 46:2 62:22

69:18 124:4

128:14 130:2

131:2,21 163:3

237:13 253:6

malice 294:8

Mammoth 78:5,6

management

291:22

manager 243:19

mandate 146:3

mandatory

164:19,21

267:14

manual 133:8,9

221:3 224:9

225:15

256:14,17

282:12,14

manually 219:18

manuals 141:10

225:9,12,15,18

226:21,22

282:20

manufacture

123:18

manufacturer

5:22 34:22 36:17

37:1,4 40:1

57:5,8 81:4

99:7,12 100:21

104:10 108:11

113:17 119:22

134:8 135:9

149:13 152:6,7

153:2 154:1

155:7,10 158:4

161:19 176:5

182:12 226:15

230:13 232:22

248:6 256:11

258:4 259:18

261:1,2,6,12

262:15,17

265:14 267:2

283:11 290:10

292:22 293:1,7

294:2 295:4,17

manufacturers

36:14 48:13

56:7,20 57:2

60:1 78:3 81:20

90:21 91:7 96:1

100:19

101:14,17

109:12 111:5

114:19 115:21

136:17 152:18

154:15,17

157:7,8,15

160:12 192:1,4

194:21 195:9,10

202:18 206:21

208:20 209:4

217:22 219:11

221:13 228:2

239:5 245:13,14

274:16 280:9,12

285:18 286:7

287:5,19

289:4,19

292:9,14

manufacturer's

57:13 134:20

137:11 246:20

247:2 260:7

manufacturing

2:17,21

3:6,10,18 60:2

82:10,21 93:10

116:22 209:10
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210:1

map 86:16,18 90:8

110:11,14

118:19

mapped 111:1

mapping 99:3

101:13

109:17,22

115:20 118:14

127:6

Marantan 3:5

mark 2:16 13:18

25:19 53:12

58:12 60:7 61:21

70:17 72:5,11

73:19 75:6 86:2

89:1 92:13 98:10

105:9 120:3

160:14 276:11

marked 189:8

market 5:15 24:9

38:15 69:8 70:1

195:17

245:17,20

264:17,18 274:4

295:16

marketed 172:5

marketing 183:11

247:12

marketing-eze

112:10

markets 234:2

markings 282:6

Mark's 116:5

Marshal 63:5

Marshall 2:19

31:7 46:11 51:15

Mary 2:14

190:2,19 218:11

massive 207:14

massively 155:14

Massoud 3:8

123:7

matched 185:15

material 119:3

materials 119:7

134:4

math 41:13

matter 65:16

77:14 83:19

122:4 154:3

226:4 235:11

241:1 263:16

299:2

matters 137:15

186:3

max 270:11,14

maximum 129:3

146:11 182:17

183:10 198:10

203:18 214:9,11

222:21 270:6

may 6:3 29:20

36:17 44:2 60:8

80:14,15 81:10

82:6,11,12 87:3

108:20,21 111:6

113:8 120:22

121:6 176:5

185:15 194:5

195:17,22 203:8

207:2 209:10,18

220:10,11,19

222:21 241:6

246:15 249:11

252:1,3 267:16

270:14 289:12

291:3,4

maybe 25:11 33:6

36:5 42:17,20

54:18 75:17

76:14 93:19

94:10,11 95:21

102:4 148:21

163:11,12,19

204:8,9 207:21

235:11,12

239:15

247:17,19

258:16 259:1

263:13 277:3,22

283:20 285:16

293:22 295:20

297:5

McQuay 2:22 6:1

9:21 12:5,6

mean 19:17 49:13

53:7 54:5 58:16

65:10 66:1 69:5

73:14 74:7

76:2,11 77:7

85:3 86:21 89:13

92:1 108:11

110:19,20

111:3,17,21

115:12

116:16,20

120:14 123:10

127:17 130:18

132:17 137:22

140:12 141:6,12

149:16,17

152:12,13

157:5,14,18

158:17 159:1

164:5,6 172:4,17

177:8 183:9

190:4 192:16

200:7 202:16

206:13 209:17

210:21 217:4

222:3 223:1,7

225:18

226:12,18 227:1

229:10 231:22

233:10 235:19

236:11,15,22

239:19 240:19

241:1 242:20

243:4,17,18

244:6 246:19

247:14 250:3

251:7,9 255:5,16

256:17 257:21

258:1,11,12

260:12,13

262:17,21

263:7,18

265:13,19

267:22 268:13

269:14 271:17

273:17 274:20

278:19

279:15,20,22

281:6,7,9 283:2

285:13 287:2

290:5,19 291:19

294:12 295:20

296:4 297:17

298:17

means 88:19 111:5

125:2 194:9

223:6 244:14,17

267:6

273:18,19,21

meant 279:7

meanwhile

155:9,15

measure 137:6

169:1,5 170:11

171:3,4,5 172:7

181:2 187:10

measured 13:19

165:16 168:8,20

170:6,7,10

171:21 172:21

173:21 174:2

186:22
Capital Reporting Company

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measurement

169:8

measuring 137:2

171:1

media 51:3,6

medical 219:1

medium 112:13

200:15,16

201:22 202:20

205:11

meet 155:11 167:9

179:11 182:17

184:1,4,5,7

187:16 192:17

195:10,11 201:3

205:19

meeting 1:7

9:18,19 30:7

43:2

71:3,6,11,17

153:20 165:15

180:5 188:19

195:4,7,15

228:10 229:1,13

meetings 8:9 33:1

94:11 125:9

meets 123:4

175:16 176:13

mega 56:9

member 99:2

140:16

242:12,13

248:4,8

members 17:9

96:7 98:19

119:18 153:13

158:17 164:9,10

239:16 241:3

246:9 248:2,3

memory 83:13

mention 160:8

mentioned 16:9

45:3 68:5 96:11

144:16 216:9

291:1

menu 90:5 235:19

merits 110:1

met 167:11 182:11

184:14,22

185:14 187:5,13

method

168:9,14,15

176:2,3

methods 171:3,7

metric 60:18

169:7,15 199:10

215:16

240:6,14,18

243:13 244:20

245:22 247:4

metrics 198:12

230:3 247:18

248:12

Meyers 3:6 35:2

116:9,14 125:8

132:13,21

156:8,13 168:20

169:9 170:12

172:15 175:11

178:6,14

183:17,21 187:7

229:12

230:19,22 231:7

234:15,20,22

240:3 246:19

247:21 248:7

Michael 3:4,9

middle 199:12

Mike 3:16 57:15

143:2 226:11,12

286:14,15

million

106:19,20,22

141:21

mind 51:16 58:22

62:16 75:12

137:2 184:12

272:8,15,22

278:3 283:4,5

mine 88:2

minimum 181:16

182:21 183:10

203:17 243:17

249:3,6,14 251:1

265:5 270:7,9

278:7

minor 32:1 48:16

minus 33:6,13

34:9 36:3,11

213:4,5,7,8,9,18,

19,20,22 214:1

minute 88:8 217:7

minutes 35:10

63:17 257:12

mischaracterized

115:20

missed 287:2

missing 185:20

mistake 71:21,22

213:2

mistakes 52:19

114:14

misunderstanding

170:22

Mitsubishi 2:12

mixed 185:15

mixes 267:1

mode 147:18

148:2,19 149:8,9

model 31:19 32:20

37:4,7 50:10

54:12,15,17,18

55:6,9

58:14,15,16,17,1

8 70:15 72:3,19

77:7 79:4,11,18

80:2,11,12,16,17

,21

81:11,12,17,19,2

2 82:1,4,8,11,12

83:10 84:9,10,13

85:5,12,15

86:13,17,18 87:2

88:10,11

90:5,10,18,20

92:18,19,20

93:7,14 95:5

96:7,13,20

97:19,21 98:8,12

99:11,12,22

100:3,4,5,6,14,1

8,22

101:2,5,7,17,18,

19,21 102:1,2,18

103:1,7,8,10,12,

13,16

104:11,13,14,18,

19 105:1,11,12

106:13,14

107:12,19 108:1

109:1,4,6,7,9,18,

20 110:3,7,21

111:1,5

112:15,21

113:1,14

115:7,15,22

116:2,7 117:2,8

120:4,6,7,11,20

121:4

122:1,2,7,13,15

125:6 132:4

156:10,11,18,22

159:17 160:16

174:6,7,9

177:13,14,16,20

198:21 202:3
Capital Reporting Company

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207:3,12,13

238:3 254:19,22

255:2,6,8,11

260:8,18 283:10

291:5 294:10

models 36:16,19

37:8 78:9 86:19

91:20 101:20,21

102:21 103:5,8

105:4,7

106:20,22

115:12 121:5

138:9 152:2

160:15

161:2,5,6,8

162:8 177:7,8

191:19 198:21

203:1 205:20

207:19 208:8

225:16 255:17

264:19

283:13,15 284:4

285:6 291:12

292:11,18

moderate 233:19

modes 220:10

modify 13:16

modulates 261:22

modulating

129:17 152:4

moist 46:15

moisture 49:1

52:21

moistures 59:10

money 111:17,18

145:14 274:1

mono 12:6

month 71:12 78:11

months 59:6

moot 195:5

morning 79:2

morning's 9:15

motion 298:21

motor 85:7

129:13,15,19

130:5,9

136:6,8,12,13

137:18 138:10

152:3 238:19

252:17,19,22

253:20 254:2

269:17

motors 132:6,9

138:6

mounted 17:7 18:6

21:8

move 14:21 25:2

91:16 197:7

263:4 264:18

mover 142:2

moving 108:17

multi-digit 118:22

multiple 37:7

multiples 103:9

multiply 203:20

204:4,21

multi-speed

130:10

mutual 281:16

Myers 3:7 40:22

96:4,22

97:7,9,16,19

98:1,15 105:21

109:16 111:14

114:17,18,22

115:4,11

118:10,16

119:4,7,11,14,18

,20 121:20

122:6,10,15,21

123:2,6 126:9,15

127:5,11 133:20

134:13,16

135:2,15

139:9,10 140:4

143:6 144:5

146:1,6,14

150:2,14,16,18

151:15

152:15,18

159:3,18

160:6,20

162:7,11 170:21

173:17

174:3,15,17,21

175:4,8,17,20

176:19,21

177:4,10,12

178:2

179:3,4,7,10,20

180:3

181:3,6,10,12,15

,18 183:2

184:3,9,11,16

187:19

188:1,6,9,11

261:10 270:20

282:1,16 284:3

285:20 286:8,18

287:9 288:11

289:2,16 292:8

296:6,14

myriad 66:10

N

nailed 42:1

naked 15:16

nameplate 85:20

93:4,6,13,16

100:7,13 104:7

116:1

NATALIA

300:3,17

National 2:9 103:7

107:10 190:19

200:3 202:16

204:2 207:17

208:17 220:21

224:14

nationwide 47:4

natural 38:10

139:16

140:1,4,13 141:1

nature 278:13

291:8 294:7,9

298:3

Navigant 2:3,15

3:9,19,21 214:9

necessarily 121:11

131:4,5,6 141:18

151:16 157:19

220:10 227:5

241:1 258:6

293:21

necessary 136:2

139:4 141:6

142:20 238:1

278:10

nefarious 246:5

negotiated 156:20

negotiations

170:16

Neil 2:3 124:6

neither 300:8

NEMA 2:10

Neshan 3:8

123:7,13

net 25:20

229:19,22 230:1

newer 152:2

news 126:4

nobody 63:15 66:7
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74:14 76:8,17

86:14 96:11

99:20 141:10

142:14 145:1

Nodding 252:11

noise 193:20

nomenclature

44:6

nomenclatures

95:18,20

nominal 32:9,18

33:6,8,11,16

34:4,17,19,21

35:1,14,16,21

36:1,5,6,15

39:11 40:18,21

41:1,20 42:17,21

44:14

45:10,13,17

124:22 238:2,4,5

248:12,14

279:12

nominally 32:10

35:8 37:11

273:20

non 129:17 207:14

212:7

non-AHRI 239:15

242:13,15 246:9

non-compliant

207:12

none 12:15 52:20

82:13 139:4

218:19 244:8

279:7

non-members

248:4

non-transparent

211:17 212:4

non-VRF 259:18

non-weatherized

129:13

Nope 166:2,3

nor 300:9

normal 35:15

44:12,15 58:7

225:3

normally 24:22

199:2 256:22

no's 186:7

note 23:9 78:10

126:17 231:1

261:11

noted 220:4

notes 125:12,14

130:21 131:16

166:20 301:6

302:6

nothing 139:8

169:8 174:22

197:5,6

271:14,15,18

287:8

noticeably 39:22

noticed 225:13

notify 276:14

nuclear 47:7

281:17

O

object 15:11 21:14

23:7 24:17 77:21

objection 265:10

objections 30:17

46:6 61:17

209:6,9

objective 194:16

obligation 90:22

observations

11:12

obstinant 265:16

obtained 247:1

obvious 220:11,18

obviously 103:8

127:5 162:3

224:18

occasional 284:14

occasionally 18:21

occurring 206:9

o'clock 9:16

odd 200:22

odds 294:5

OER 242:12,14

offend 194:10

offense 294:12

offensive 280:19

offer 24:7 25:10

36:14 75:8

236:14

offered 51:12

offering 39:2

office 29:13

194:12

offsetting 56:4

oh 24:6 26:7 34:7

40:17 46:4 49:6

50:11 69:17,19

75:3 77:11 97:4

108:8 112:7

131:2 139:1

144:14,19

150:17 155:12

160:20 165:17

174:7 180:15

186:11 190:11

192:5 196:8,21

222:9 231:7

244:4 254:9

290:13 297:15

OHA 189:14

oil 139:16 187:1

oil-fired 167:13

okay 5:11,20

8:16,20 9:9 10:2

15:3,9,12,20

17:3 21:2,13,19

22:18 23:6

28:11,14,20

30:20,22

31:4,9,17

34:8,10,14 37:17

39:16 41:12

43:1,10 44:13

45:12,16

46:4,6,9 47:15

50:12,15,18

55:16 56:12,15

57:4

61:6,9,15,20

67:14 68:2,8

69:15 70:6,13,18

72:2,3 74:7

77:18

78:1,7,8,13,16

79:10

81:6,9,14,15

82:3,16,18 92:13

94:17,21

95:2,3,7,17 97:8

99:11 101:4

102:16 103:3

104:16 106:3

108:14

109:10,15

112:4,9,15,18

116:14 119:19

121:14 122:21

123:6 125:3,19

127:11

128:4,7,17 129:1

132:20 133:2
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134:13,16

136:12,22

139:3,11,13

140:3,14 141:3

142:19 143:1,6

144:4,14 146:9

147:20,22

148:1,4,20

150:1,17,19

160:6,20,21

161:20 163:7

164:22

165:7,10,11,17,1

9,22 166:3,8

167:20 170:3

171:18

172:14,15

173:16

174:16,20 175:9

178:6,14 179:13

180:2,20 182:10

185:11 188:13

189:5 190:16

193:13

196:17,19

197:8,21 198:2,3

200:1,5 201:17

202:2,5

204:6,14,16,22

206:16 208:15

209:7 211:11

212:1,18,21

213:17,21 214:3

215:6 216:9

217:5,8,12

218:10,16

219:4,5,8

223:10,11

225:5,7 227:9

228:16 229:6

230:8 231:2

233:3 237:20

238:13 248:10

249:16 250:1

251:12

252:13,20 253:1

254:4,9 256:20

257:7 259:1,6,13

261:7 262:11

264:3 267:8

268:11

270:11,13,16

272:5 274:6

275:2,5 280:6

283:14,17 284:2

okayed 295:4

old 29:14

211:20,21

on/off 263:19

264:8 266:22

one-off 97:22

101:16 118:22

119:22

one-offs 64:8,20

ones 7:3 40:12

96:11 132:5

142:1 160:17,19

215:19 235:1

258:3 280:10

281:8 285:9

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197:17,18 198:9

227:3 229:8

234:11 256:22

264:14 268:9,20

285:14

required 55:19

129:9 131:11

140:10 146:18

147:3 148:14

149:21 150:3,4

159:4 175:13

176:15 178:5

181:16

187:11,16 191:4

197:16 222:14

226:20 237:21

238:19 256:6

261:20 268:6

278:7,8

requirement

167:10 176:1,13

179:19 262:18

requirements

139:10 167:11

184:4,5 229:9

requires 128:14

174:22 265:19

requiring 158:12

164:12 185:20

265:4,5 289:20

reserve 214:12

residences 38:14

residential 18:12

25:9 29:3,19

35:13,19

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resistance 14:7

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51:9 234:10,12

resolve 195:17

251:6

resource 115:7

resources 290:20

respect 91:17

98:20

respond 94:11

286:9,19 288:18

290:11

responded 48:4

response 135:16

275:22

responsibility

115:22

responsive 194:7

rest 8:4 18:3 59:22

164:5

restaurant 297:20

restriction 13:1

result 277:9 291:4

retrofitted 49:10

returns 11:7

rev 161:22 162:11

revealing 133:21

reveals 100:13

revenue 280:11

reversal 92:14

review 133:18

292:1

revision 136:10,11

161:18

revisit 198:7

263:13

revolutions 253:4

Rheem 2:21 3:6

125:8 132:13

156:8 175:12

178:7 229:12

240:3

Rheem's 98:2

rider 193:5

riders 193:3

ripple 98:8

risk 134:21

Rivest 3:9

road 106:9

Roan 3:10

69:16,20

Robert 2:11 3:22

role 92:14 195:1

roll 55:5

Ron 102:14 103:15

105:22 106:2

108:6,11 109:3

200:6 203:11

205:1 206:17

209:16

Ronald 3:12

Ron's 106:17

roof 56:18

rooftop 60:21

72:22 112:13,14

141:13,14 142:5

room 5:22 53:3,18

57:22 58:2,3,4

72:12 96:2 257:7

274:11 277:4

281:5 282:2

285:15 286:6

287:4,7

rooms 53:8 145:20

root 121:4

roughly 43:20

roulette 292:4

rounding 44:20,21

280:10

rounds 194:20

route 106:12

RPM 253:4

RTU 60:20

RTUs 60:3

rudimentary

151:18

rule 135:21

rulemaking 1:6

30:9 123:20

rules 89:10 159:22

run 23:18 67:10

129:8,11 136:2

137:19 139:4

143:8 144:11

146:12 149:3

151:6 179:5,12

182:12,16

183:18,22

184:14,18 185:1

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237:5 251:21

256:18

257:3,5,10 260:8

261:6,8,20

264:15

266:13,19 270:3

271:18 273:3

294:17

running 28:17

30:21 145:18

151:14 227:16

235:14 237:4

247:17 253:9

261:7 266:11

271:19,20,21

runs 58:6

rural 234:3,9,11

Russian 292:3

Rusty 3:18 38:12

45:8 101:16

104:18 228:21

243:18 253:16

254:5 272:7,19

277:22

Rusty's 243:20

246:18

S

S.W 1:10

Sachs 3:11 6:7,18

7:1,8,12 11:10

12:14,17,20

13:10 14:20

15:6,16,21 16:3

17:1 18:8,20

19:4,8,14 28:21

29:10,18 30:7

35:4 50:17,19

51:15,22

52:5,7,15 53:5

54:7 59:15,18

70:6 73:19

74:1,5,20 75:1

90:11,13 91:10

98:17 99:15

100:1,11

101:4,7,11 102:3

115:19 116:12

117:1,13

124:6,12,15,21

133:6,15,18

141:8 154:7

170:7,18 178:19

179:1,13 180:5
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296:22 297:5

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safeties 148:14

safety 137:9

138:18 140:18

147:22 176:17

261:21

sale 75:9

sales 98:7 100:7

sample 54:9

123:14,18

127:13 128:2,17

samples 98:3

123:9

sampling 54:8

SARAH 302:3,13

satisfied 196:14,15

satisfy 90:22 93:22

save 145:13 235:5

267:4

scales 171:8

scenario 60:4

155:8

scenarios 205:9

SCFM 253:17

254:6

scheme 98:8

109:19,21

161:20 163:9

223:7

schemes 96:8

265:8

scope 62:1 170:15

Scrabble 124:1

screen 173:11

186:15 189:6

210:16 211:2

script 110:19

111:2

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second 11:17 66:6

69:9,10,12,13

82:3 88:19 99:3

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160:2,9,17

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230:22

231:4,9,13 253:4

258:14,21

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290:13,17 294:1

298:8

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section 34:20

63:22 142:1

176:3,4 191:12

232:3 280:9

sections 42:14

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seen 20:1

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293:6,7 294:11

295:2 296:18,20

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self-contain 216:6

self-contained

216:2 224:18,21

228:15

sell 18:4 24:6

25:12 75:6

105:2,15

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155:17

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send 130:20

131:16 154:5

162:1 276:1,14

284:22 285:11

291:11

sense 15:22 51:17

101:14 174:12

178:14 201:20

206:1 213:14

216:13 218:9,11

255:4 259:14

281:7 285:12

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sent 9:3,5,17,20

23:21 24:3

sentence 174:19

255:5

separate 26:6

36:16,18,19

58:18 70:4

104:13,14 109:9

211:5 237:16

separately 67:9,10

80:22 81:19

102:9,13 104:10

135:20 205:12

250:2 251:10

sequence 97:9

149:16

sequenced 83:22

sequential 116:3

118:11 119:1,11

SER 230:3

serial 84:1 98:12

100:17 103:17

series 29:2 149:7

serious 297:11

seriously 201:2

288:11

service 118:21

133:9 141:15

147:18 148:2,19

149:8 214:17

216:10

sets 284:7

setting 51:4

222:21 254:1

262:2

settings 161:9

220:15 238:19

256:7,8 257:12

272:10 278:13
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settle 226:16

setup 18:17 152:7

159:7

seven 101:1 124:8

276:15,16,18

286:16

several 11:11

79:19 109:12

171:3 198:11

288:15 295:16

share 5:15

shared 113:4

SharePoint

7:15,17,18

125:17 210:12

Shebik 3:12

102:15,22 103:3

105:22 106:3,22

108:6,14,20

109:10

203:11,16 205:1

209:16 210:14

sheet 86:19 116:4

shelf 297:17

shift 131:14 141:9

280:18

shifted 195:18

ship 10:10,11

164:2

shipped 10:19

49:16 133:11

shipped-with

14:13

shipping 110:8

shopping 221:13

short 70:20 276:5

286:9 291:17

shorter 87:2

short-term 136:10

shown 191:10,15

shows 175:16

212:16

shut 69:8,10,12

sic 280:13

sign 34:9

significant 55:7

74:9 99:1

significantly 39:8

40:1 272:18

SIKES 301:3,14

similar 86:3

151:22 207:20

216:21,22

249:22 257:4

297:9

simple 80:6 151:18

159:14 223:8

simplification

12:9

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25:13 65:10

134:22 176:12

181:21

182:11,13,19

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simulate 296:10

Simultaneous

187:22 228:20

231:18 253:14

single 12:4 29:2,18

67:19 81:22

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118:1,2 138:10

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single-stage

129:17

sir 16:2

sit 251:9

site 81:1 116:11

sitting 18:11 27:17

30:15 57:16 96:1

154:17 287:4,7

293:5

situation

16:14,16,17

20:7,22 21:4

33:8 42:10,18

64:14,18

65:1,7,12 81:11

111:22 146:16

223:3 276:20

situations 65:9

six 8:20 59:6 101:1

110:22 201:6

246:8 286:16

sixty 44:19

size 10:14 34:21

123:14,18

127:13 128:2,17

170:6 199:7

sizes 35:14 75:7

171:8 198:14

210:6 295:21

skirt 51:20

slap 275:9

slide 9:2,3 66:11

72:9 73:3 78:10

79:1 125:4,9

128:18 129:2

137:1 144:14

166:9 168:4

169:20 172:16

187:10 188:16

208:12 210:16

211:9,10,13

213:2 215:20,21

217:20

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slides 5:7 10:7

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229:2

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smaller 17:8 57:17

136:17

smallest

199:7,8,13

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Smartphone 124:1

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147:8,15

148:7,21 150:20

164:1 212:13

software 90:2

116:15 146:22

147:1,2,8,9,11,1

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sold 25:10 195:14

209:1 221:20

solid 211:17,18

212:6,11

solids 211:18

solution

117:12,13,16

solved 158:11

somebody 5:14

54:2 74:19

101:22 103:20
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138:16

161:16,21 190:7

209:10 237:6

242:18 243:21

264:14 269:4

292:16

somehow 98:20

222:7 233:6

241:20

someone 8:8 69:15

100:9 177:18

218:7 236:20

243:6 286:10

somewhat 53:19

59:20 199:3

265:13

somewhere 116:5

281:21 294:16

sophisticated

152:4 222:19

264:11

sorry 27:3 33:18

38:11 69:19

78:19 129:22

130:6 163:2

178:19 181:12

185:6 188:8

197:10 222:9

234:19,21

235:11 244:14

252:13 258:6

sort 6:19 37:1

105:14 117:4,6

154:11 164:13

203:9 216:11

262:17 269:1

289:5

sorts 5:15

sound 44:2 130:2

162:13

sounds 20:15

53:22 54:1 71:10

149:20 193:14

source 5:19 8:3

11:19,21,22

31:2,3,14,16,20

33:10 34:8 51:1

63:21

64:4,7,10,14,18

65:1,2,5,13,15,1

7,18,19,20,21

66:12,21 67:2,4

68:21 72:9

282:21

sources 246:17

Southern 3:8 47:8

123:8

space 145:15

speak 16:13 43:6

69:4 92:15

129:20 130:6

163:17 226:13

264:2,6

speaker 5:21 6:3,5

7:6,9,14,16

14:15,19 19:13

22:7 34:15 45:22

46:2 62:22 69:18

71:5 124:4

128:14 130:2

131:2,21

163:1,3,6 237:13

253:6

speaking 127:6

160:15 163:11

170:12 187:22

228:20 231:18

253:14

special 22:17

97:22 101:20

104:7 142:9

144:16,21 224:6

286:11

specialties 10:11

specialty 22:2,4,16

206:6 209:1

specific 42:2 53:16

92:2 119:8 137:1

158:12 210:20

229:10,20

253:21 281:4

282:11 289:12

specifically 218:3

219:3

specification

90:21,22 91:15

99:9 171:14

specifics 134:15

specified 144:3,7

168:16 218:7

229:14

specifies 143:22

specify 126:20

169:4 224:12

speed 131:13

151:2 152:3,11

159:13 253:9

257:22 259:19

260:16 264:14

265:18

270:2,9,12

speeds 256:10

258:13 270:1,7

295:8

spend 196:11

spending 93:18

spirit 92:14

split 42:3

spot 18:16

sprinkler 59:11

SPVU 68:14 69:1

SPVU/PTAC 70:2

squeak 155:18

stab 20:8

Stab-in 18:6

staff 276:19

staffing 292:10

stage 27:20,21

151:19 152:11

234:12 266:17

staged 265:4

stages 265:2,5

stainless 80:9

stalled 274:11

stand 234:10

298:19

stand-alone 20:16

standard 12:17

13:7,20 22:13

23:4,5 24:16

27:11 30:11

34:6,11 50:4,6

60:14,16 75:13

140:10,21

146:19 155:12

166:18 168:6

169:1,18 170:9

181:2,5,13 183:9

184:1,7,8,10

192:17 201:3

214:13 220:2

225:2 248:17,18

253:17

254:7,8,10,12,14

263:19

264:7,8,22

274:17,20

277:16

standards 1:6

13:15 44:20

49:18 51:4

140:18 167:1,2

170:4,5 176:15
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standby 167:10

169:7 179:5,12

182:12,17

183:18

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185:2,21

186:10,19

187:2,11,14,16

standing 167:12

178:10,12,21

179:7,10 180:18

188:2

standpoint 69:5

Stanonik 3:13

136:18,22

138:21 140:9

143:15

166:4,9,16

167:16,20

171:19 172:2,14

173:1,4,9,15,20

177:5 178:11

179:16,18

182:5,10

183:1,14

185:8,10,14

186:1

start 5:2 9:16 45:6

90:16 93:20

98:19 203:5

223:15 238:11

273:5 290:4,6

294:11

started 33:1 62:14

92:14 189:4

213:8 226:6

starting 53:20

266:22

starts 55:5 59:20

65:9 213:7

startup 161:16

state 193:21

257:14

stated 68:14 271:5

statement 100:2

160:21 180:9,16

189:20 241:22

static 17:9 230:17

238:18

248:13,15,16

249:1,3,13,14

250:3,9,13,14,15

251:8,13

statics 282:13

station 215:5

status 113:18

125:10

statute 212:15

stay 136:9

steady-state 151:5

steam 165:4 233:5

steel 80:9

Stem 3:16 286:15

step 5:4 253:5,13

256:7 264:13

266:1,6,21

Stephens 3:17

7:19 10:17,21

11:5,7 30:3,14

35:9 56:6,12,15

57:4 71:17

94:14,18

121:8,14,19

136:4,20

147:17,21

148:2,9,17

153:8,13,19

158:20 161:17

162:17,21

164:14,17

176:11,20

177:22

180:8,11,20

185:19

186:8,12,14,16,1

9 187:3,6,8,15

191:22 195:3,7

196:5 241:8,12

243:6,11 244:16

273:9,15,22

274:6,15,21

275:15 276:4,18

277:19 280:7,22

281:3,15

283:9,14,17

284:2 286:4

288:9 289:9

stick 123:19 124:8

173:22

stingy 159:10

stop 68:19

74:13,17 281:9

stops 280:16

storage 167:9,14

168:8 169:7

171:20,21

172:3,5,20 173:5

174:4,18,21

175:4 176:14,20

180:13 182:6,22

185:4,9

Store 3:8 123:8

storms 47:6

strike 17:1 61:9

174:18

string 86:13 88:4

120:5

strong 11:13 49:1

structure 91:4

111:6 123:3

structures 91:6

struggle 41:17

stuck 99:22

stuff 10:15 11:14

18:15 39:6 60:12

88:1 115:9

132:21 133:11

149:19 150:22

189:14 221:8

223:12,19

226:14 257:20

264:18 272:9

276:10

278:10,14,16

279:19,20

281:10

sub 278:3

sub-AEDM

201:11

subcool 224:5

subcool/superheat

227:12

subcools 251:19

subject 235:5

274:5 277:7

279:3

subjected 294:6

subjects 170:18

submission 197:20

227:3

submit 79:9

80:4,11 82:11,12

95:10 105:4

113:9 142:12

208:10 219:16

241:5,9,16

243:21 245:14

273:10 274:8

275:20 277:10

278:6 283:20

submits 100:21

242:14

submittal 277:10
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117:9 236:10

241:6

subpoints 261:5

successful 146:7

297:6

succinct 15:14

sudden 266:4

297:14

sue 276:17

sufficient 86:20

134:18

suggest 93:17

94:10 165:22

277:7

suggesting 91:10

115:20 245:2

suggestion 19:17

61:12 98:2

Suite 1:11

superheat 224:5

super-heated 25:7

supplemental

17:17 19:6 25:14

28:19,22 58:4

234:8

supplied 227:14

230:16

supplier 176:9,10

supplies 198:19

supply 46:22

136:5 142:4

167:8 178:7

180:12 186:21

230:14 239:13

261:18 287:16

297:9

supplying 269:2

272:8,15,22

278:3 287:13

support 78:7

184:20

supposed 128:20

157:22 158:3

169:4 194:7

224:4 270:3

sure 10:22 18:18

25:3 33:22 43:4

54:20 55:21

58:21 63:3 64:16

94:8 95:4 106:4

109:14 122:8

132:19 137:4,15

138:17

154:12,20

156:12 158:18

162:14 177:22

179:19 189:13

197:7 212:4

217:17,19 218:5

219:20 226:16

228:7 230:21

232:18 237:13

241:10 261:7

266:2,5,10

273:21 275:1

282:9

291:12,16,20

292:9 293:9

294:20

surface 26:20

167:11 180:16

surfaces 37:21

surge 46:12

suspect 150:4

swamping 280:14

swap 261:17

sweet 276:5

switch 215:20

220:7 238:19

256:6 272:10

278:13

switches 149:14

Syracuse 288:6

system 10:9

12:5,12 17:22

26:8,14 27:18

28:16,22 29:17

39:20,22 40:3

42:3 47:2 63:8

82:9,10 83:17

84:12 86:1,3

87:19 111:9

115:7,8 116:5

118:13,14 119:2

121:3,6 142:3,8

145:8 157:9,15

261:12 266:14

284:12 286:16

291:6 293:3

system-dependent

263:2,3

systems 10:10,11

56:8,9 60:6 84:2

86:11 147:22

263:19 264:7

T

table 25:3 54:8

99:5 154:17

180:1 264:2

taking 11:20

55:10,14,15

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69:16 109:17

110:20 143:14

155:3,4 171:12

185:12 198:4

200:7 209:4

215:10,12

236:18 238:14

251:10 277:5

286:15

talked 78:13 110:2

120:5 125:9

129:4,5 159:22

211:14,16,18,19

219:11 233:3

237:21 254:17

255:16 282:3

284:4

talking 8:5 16:15

31:12 39:13

45:11 69:2 88:22

93:18 96:15 98:6

103:11 107:11

118:7 135:3

149:18 162:8

164:4 176:18

182:5 186:1

198:6 205:13

206:8,9,17

223:20,21

229:15 232:1,2

261:11 268:1

281:4 286:10,13

290:22 292:13

295:14 298:14

talks 35:4 214:9

tank 29:2 167:11

172:5

177:17,18,19

180:16 182:6,22

tanks 29:2 171:20

173:6

174:4,18,22

175:4 176:20

tap 131:13
Capital Reporting Company

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waiver

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