Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

1

 ASRAC

 COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONING

 WORKING GROUP MEETING

 May 12, 2015

 2111 Wilson Boulevard

 8:00 a.m.

Reported by: Donna Peterson
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Edward Bantle

3 James Battaglia

4 John Cymbalsky

5 Pete Cochran

6 Katie Coughlin

7 Adam Darmington

8 Andrew deLaski

9 Paul Doppel

10 Eileen Hoffman

11 Jill Hootman

12 Long Huang

13 Marshall Hunt

14 Richard Lord

15 Michael McCabe

16 Karen Meyers

17 Nick Mislak

18 Greg Rosenquist

19 Harvey Sachs

20 Michael Shows – via telephone

21 Louis Starr

22
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 Eric Stas

3 Mark Terzigni

4 Rusty Tharp

5 Meg Waltner – via telephone

6 Detlef Westphanen

7 Robert Whitwell

8 Alison Williams

9 Dave Winningham

10 Xing Xu

11 Sami Zendah

12

13

14

15

16 ALSO PRESENT: Emily Marchetti, Webinar Master

17

18

19

20

21

22
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BANTLE: Good morning, everyone.

3 My name is Ted Bantle, as always. Hasn't

4 changed since yesterday.

5 The first thing we would like to do, just

6 standard, we'll go around the room, take attendance

7 and then we'll get started. I believe we're starting

8 with DOE folks going through some more energy

9 analysis. So let's start off with attendance. We'll

10 start off with the main table and then go around, go

11 around the edges.

12 Ted Bantle, Federal Mediation.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez, Federal

15 Mediation.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen,

17 Navigant.

18 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, Emerson.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier.

20 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem.

21 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI.

22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

1 MR. WINNINGHAM: David Winningham, Allied.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

3 MR. DeLaski: Andrew Delaski, Appliance

4 Standards Awareness Project.

5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr.

7 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, California IOU.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Barkas Hoffman, FMCS.

9 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL.

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, LBNL.

12 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, DOE.

13 MR. McCABE: Mike McCabe, contract to

14 Trane.

15 MR. BANTLE: And people on the line,

16 Emily, do we have any working group members on the

17 line?

18 MS. MARCHETTI: John, Meg and Michael

19 Shows.

20 MR. BANTLE: Okay, John, Meg and Michael

21 on the line, thank you very much.

22 Okay. Any questions, comments?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

1 I'll turn it over to DOE.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Before we go to that -- I

3 hate to go back. Bob Whitwell, from Carrier. I

4 think my mic is on here.

5 I think it was Detlef, showed us the new

6 levels to be looked at for the 12.2 and the 2.5. I

7 was looking at that last night, and I noticed that

8 with the 15-ton, the EL1 levels changed from where

9 they were before. And the EL 4 changed only

10 slightly, but I didn't know if that was a typo or if

11 there was a reason for making those changes. And

12 then there was also a change in the next stack 30

13 ton.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Which slide?

15 MR. WHITWELL: So I will pick one.

16 So 15 ton, so 25 would work. BEGIN NOTE

17 you believe the original level at 15 ton was 12.2 and

18 here it's showing 12.4. And the EL4 level was 18.4

19 and here it is showing 18.5. Indoor heat exchangers

20 and fans.

21 MR. BATTAGLIA: I'm -- this is James

22 Battaglia, from Navigant.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

1 12.4 is to the 90.13 level. The EL1 for

2 15 tons is now based on the ASHRAE 91.1 2013 levels.

3 So that was updated. The number was based on a

4 draft. BEGIN NOTE since November. The EL -- is it

5 four, they said?

6 MR. WHITWELL: EL4.

7 MR. BATTAGLIA: I think that was based on

8 the product availability of models at that level

9 based on.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: EL4 for 15 ton?

11 MR. WHITWELL: EL4 for 15 ton.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I didn't know it was

13 18.4. Yeah, I think that was based on product

14 availability.

15 MR. WHITWELL: And then on the 30-ton EL4

16 was 15.5 and the new EL5, which I thought was the --

17 would be the same, is -- went from -- went to 15.6,

18 rather than 15.5. So may I not -- big differences

19 but they are differences and I guess I'd like us to

20 be have a chance to talk about those would have

21 been -- I think it would have been good to have

22 brought those up yesterday when we are dealing with
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

1 those numbers.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: To highlight that.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I apologize, I didn't

5 highlight that.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John, from DOE.

7 While you guys had your informal conversations, I

8 also asked them to do the normal updates so that when

9 we sat down to this table, everything was at the

10 go-forward stage. So we got public comment on the

11 NOPR. We did work in-between this and when the NOPR,

12 you know, comment period ended, and so, again,

13 apologize for not pointing out all the changes. But

14 there was quite a bit of work, not just what's been

15 talked about in this room but our normal work that we

16 would have done anyway, absent the negotiations. And

17 so as James pointed out, the ASHRAE, we would have

18 done that anyway because that's something that

19 changed between the NOPR analysis and today.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, changed between

21 the -- I mean --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: It became final.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, before the NOPR but

2 changed since you started working on the NOPR.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct.

4 So there's going to be lots of little things like

5 that. We didn't prepare a slide that stepped through

6 every major change and things like that. BEGIN NOTE

7 BEGIN NOTE.

8 MR. WHITWELL: To be fair, I think it

9 would be nice to point those out because we've been

10 looking at it based on what was in the NOPR and now

11 things are are changing, we need to understand that

12 where things changed, we need to understand that as

13 we go through this process.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fair. And I think

15 what you'll see are the tables, Greg will show all

16 the numbers to you in LDC tables, every number.xxxx

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Fair enough.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'll point that out

19 now.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But that's a good

21 point. We -- we did, like I said, a fair amount of

22 work. We didn't -- we didn't want to come to the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

1 table with a -- what we thought was not our best

2 effort to refresh the data set.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so as John mentioned,

4 we've made some updates, so I will be going through

5 the updates that have been made to the energy use

6 analysis. I'm going to go through, I guess through

7 three items, I'm going to refresh your memory about

8 what this generalized fielding sample is and give you

9 some information on how we've updated that and then

10 I'm going to present the new energy use calculations

11 and then I will discuss very briefly this sensitivity

12 that we're plan to do with regards to the loading of

13 the units.

14 So the energy use, to remind you, the

15 energy use is the life cycle costs, and it feeds from

16 the life cycle cost into the national impact

17 analysis. So I'm not sure if we need to revisit this

18 slide. Greg went over this with you yesterday

19 morning. This is just a list of the things that we

20 had discussed in the previous meeting that we have

21 now implemented in the current analysis. So if

22 there's no questions on this, I will just move on to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

1 the next. Okay, so for the generalized building

2 sample, again, this is essentially a requirement of

3 the LCC. The LCC looks at sort of a large number of

4 air conditioners that are placed in different types

5 of buildings and looks at the only rating

6 characteristics and operating costs and we made this

7 END NOTE if you're familiar with the CBECS, the

8 Commercial Building Energy Consumption Surveys, a

9 single build willing have many demographic features,

10 such as a location, which in CBECS is a census

11 division, a climate zone, building activity,

12 ownership tight, a vintage.

13 There's a sample weight and then there's a

14 very long list of features associated with the

15 building in CBECS. Those include floor space, number

16 of floors, occupancy, schedules. BEGIN NOTE and then

17 there's additional information on the system

18 features, such as cooling and heating equipment, air

19 handling systems and et cetera. So there are several

20 hundred fields in the CBECS.

21 And the generalized building is a similar

22 concept in that we're only taking those fields that
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

1 are first-order relevant to the air conditioning

2 energy use. This is partly to avoid trying to read

3 too much information into a limited sample. So for

4 our generalized building, it's essentially if

5 features that we care about are the region, the

6 location the building is in, the building activity,

7 the floor space, the vintage and we have added this

8 flag to represent whether the building air handling

9 system is variable air volume or constant air volume.

10 So when we have the LCC sample, if you

11 have ever looked at an LCC spreadsheet, there's

12 usually 10,000 samples in a single LCC run and each

13 one of those represents an air conditioner of a given

14 capacity that's gone into one of these generalized

15 buildings. And there will be some additional

16 information attached to that. There's a discount

17 rate and lifetime that are calculated from

18 distributions within the LCC. And when we sample the

19 different rows in the LCC, there's a weight attached

20 to each one of these generalized buildings, and that

21 is the sort of expected number of units that would go

22 in that category. So it's dominated, for example, by
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

1 office space and retail. Those are the two building

2 types that have most, most of these air conditioners.

3 And then the regional variation goes roughly with

4 population.

5 So, again, just to recap, the building

6 characteristics we're modeling exclusively in this

7 analysis are region, building activity, building size

8 and vintage. And the reasons why we've chosen those

9 fields are summarized at the top, the region

10 influences climate and also electricity price.

11 Building inactivity influences load, that sort of

12 thing. The building size is fully influenced by

13 electricity price. They tend to be larger for larger

14 buildings.

15 The vintage is how likely will it have a

16 variable air volume system. BEGIN NOTE the air

17 system is internal loads.

18 END NOTE I have a list of the actual

19 values associated with each of these fields. I guess

20 the highlights are we are, for regions we have nine

21 census divisions, plus we have taken the Pacific

22 census division and split it into the northwest and
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

1 California. And relative to the NOPR, we now have

2 four vintage categories, so we've sort of updated the

3 floor space sample using the EEO projection to try to

4 represent the building stock in 2019. So we have

5 added, we have four vintage categories, sort of

6 pre-1979, 1980 to 1999, 2000 to 2012 and 2013 to

7 2019. To the CBECS that we used in the energy use

8 give a reasonable representation of the first two

9 vintage categories. BEGIN NOTE.

10 And to generate the second two we used

11 thighs multipliers that came from AEO that

12 essentially scaled the cooling loads relative to a

13 given base year. So this is just a recap of the

14 inputs. So essentially the main difference with the

15 NOPRs, we have CBECS 2012 information now that we're

16 able to use to get the various percentages of

17 building floor space by these different categories

18 and we've updated to the AEO 2015 for the floor space

19 projections.

20 As I mentioned, we now have these two new

21 vintage categories. We don't have enough information

22 to really kind of characterize the projection of
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

1 buildings according to size or how many are gonna

2 have VIV, so for now, those are assumed to be

3 constant in the different vintage categories. And

4 pretty much that's it. And then the cooling load

5 factors I will get to in a moment. This is a picture

6 of the old floor space. These are the regions along

7 the bottom and the vintages. We have quite a lot of

8 variability across these different fields.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So has this changed much

10 from the last time?

11 MS. COUGHLIN: No. I compared our

12 estimate of 2012 to -- so the estimate that we felt

13 that the floor space in 2012 to the CBECS and it as

14 actually pretty close. The main difference is

15 there's quite a bit more warehouse was actually

16 constructed than we had predicted. But the other

17 ones are within a few percent of one another.

18 MR. SACHS: Katie, this is Harvey. What's

19 my Y axis on 55?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: It is, I think, a million

21 square feet.

22 MR. SACHS: Thank you.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

1 MR. STARR: This is Louis. To help, since

2 2000, in general, I guess if you were to sum up all

3 of this and have one number, how much of construction

4 on a percentage basis is from 2000 newer and how much

5 is 2000 and older?

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Do I know that off the top

7 of my head? I'm gonna guess ten percent, 15, 15

8 percent.

9 MR. STARR: Okay.

10 MR. STARR: Should I ask how you project

11 that in the future or is that coming up?

12 MS. COUGHLIN: AEO does it.

13 MR. STARR: What?

14 MS. COUGHLIN: AEO does it.

15 MR. STARR: For 30 years down the road,

16 right?

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. What I did here to

18 create the category 2000-2012, I just took the new

19 floor space added in AEO in each of those years and

20 summed it up. Same thing for 2013 to 2019.

21 MR. STARR: I mean, if you were just

22 guessing, think about it, ten percent of floor space
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

1 is new in the last 15 years, right, 2000? If you

2 were to project that forward you would say that 20

3 percent will be new in the next -- 20 percent more

4 new building stock in the next 30 years, right?

5 Because it's --

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

7 MR. STARR: You see what I'm saying?

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah.

9 MR. STARR: So basically at tends of the

10 30-year period it will be 30 percent new buildings

11 or -- or 70 percent old buildings.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Assuming the

13 northwest, it's like we had almost 20 percent augment

14 between the 2000-2012.

15 MR. STARR: I'm talking about the total.

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. It's highly

17 variable. There are construction booms and busts.

18 And so depending on where you drop your year

19 category, it can be also variable.

20 MR. STARR: I see.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: You can actually, you know,

22 this is all in the AEO, if you really want to know
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

1 what their forecast looks like, it's easy -- it's

2 probably easier to just look at that than to ask me.

3 So let me go to the next. So these are the -- these

4 factors that scale the cooling load.

5 So, again, what I did is each year, AEO

6 produce as time series of this number, which is a --

7 it's a used to scale the cooling load relative to a

8 base year by region and by building type. So for the

9 period 2000 to 2012, I took the floor spate weighted

10 average of each one of those cooling factors for each

11 of these categories. So you get this array of

12 numbers and I think the national average for this

13 period is about 89 percent, meaning that the cooling

14 load for this vintage category is about 90 percent of

15 what it would have been in the previous vintage

16 category. And, again, there's a lot of variability

17 with region and building type.

18 MR. STARR: So how are you coming --

19 sorry, Louis Starr again. How are you coming up with

20 the cooling load factor? How --

21 MS. COUGHLIN: It's AEO publishes that

22 number.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

19

1 MR. STARR: Oh. How do you think they

2 come up with it?

3 MS. COUGHLIN: They have a combination of

4 shell improvements, internal loads, equipment

5 improvements. So the AEO does a projection of

6 equipment efficiency, shell characteristics -- so.

7 MR. STARR: So they use an argue model and

8 they take the current, figure out what the

9 characteristics of the current building are and new

10 construction and look at those relative weights of

11 the old construction, new construction, come up with

12 that factor.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

14 MR. STARR: Okay.

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. They have a full

16 cost-based estimate of new construction decisions

17 about what type of shell envelope characteristics to

18 put in and equipment efficiency trends and all that,

19 so --

20 So then I have the same table of numbers

21 for your information on -- and this is for the

22 2000 -- that should say 2013 to 2019. And, again,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

1 there's lot of variability. There's fairly

2 aggressive improvements in region nine, which is the

3 Pacific, and they're more moderate in other regions.

4 The national average for this number comes out to be

5 I think 78 percent.

6 MR. THARP: That's 78 percent of the 2000

7 prior.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: 78 percent to a base year,

9 which is '99. So essentially relative to the vintage

10 category two. That's what this number is being used

11 for.

12 MR. THARP: Thank you.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE.

14 I'm going to put my EIA BEGIN NOTE hat on for a

15 moment because I worked there for 20 years.

16 The one maybe thing to think about here

17 with the way they do their building shell

18 improvements, they -- they do assume a hundred

19 percent compliance is implicit in their analysis to

20 building codes. So they have -- they have staged

21 adoption which we discussed yesterday in great

22 detail. But what I think is an issue and we're not
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

1 gonna fix this, but I just want to point out, is that

2 they do assume a hundred percent compliance, which,

3 in my mind, we know what that number is probably more

4 like. We saw some numbers. Greg put them up

5 yesterday. For better for worse, those numbers are

6 baked in to what we see here.

7 So when we see, you know, Katie mention

8 the 19 percent improvement or whatever it was, when

9 we get to the compliance stage, that's a big number

10 because they're assuming a hundred percent compliance

11 in states that have adopted 90.1. And so if

12 anything, we know these numbers are overstating.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Optimistic.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Quite a bit in some

15 regions the impact of the building code. So the

16 loads that -- in my mind, the loads -- and, again, we

17 are not gonna be able to tackle this issue before

18 June 15. The loads are lower than they probably

19 should be, all else equal. Just wanted to point that

20 out. That's a fact.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: John --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Residentials are the same
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

1 way. I know because I programmed it, it's the way it

2 is.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: John, this is Jill Hootman

4 from Trane.

5 Do they also reject future pros and

6 standards and then it's also 100 percent compliance

7 in the future?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: They do. What they do do

9 well, I think, is the adoption at each stage, so they

10 got that part tied down good. But you know, EIA's

11 position on compliance is not going to be that we

12 don't think people are gonna comply with the law,

13 right, so they don't try to get to that for good

14 reason. But I just want everyone in the room to

15 understand I know we spent a lot of time arguing

16 about what the load should be.

17 I can tell you factually that just because

18 of that one assumption in their modeling, these

19 numbers could be higher. The load should be okay.

20 MR. STARR: The other aspect is assuming

21 that stuff stays the way you actually -- when you

22 build the building that it stays like it was built,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

1 and that's usually not the case, too.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's --

3 MR. STARR: So the persistance of all the

4 things that are in there are highly, like the

5 commenter, there are a whole bunch of aspects of it.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The reason I pointed out

7 because I know we made a big point about, you know,

8 penetration of economize. BEGIN NOTE I think all of

9 that stuff cancels that out to a large degree, if not

10 more. So I'd be careful about focusing too much on

11 all that level of detail, trying to run with what we

12 have. BEGIN NOTE.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. Any other comments?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Just a question. Eileen

15 Hoffman.

16 Did you mean 2013, not 2003?

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I meant 2013.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: So this is --

20 MR. STARR: Sorry. I didn't -- I didn't

21 realize it. So that's in the next -- this is Louis

22 star again. So that's in the next six years,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

1 you're -- the fact that is being applied to the old

2 vintage? So let's take census one.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: This is the period 2013 to

4 2019, relative to 1999.

5 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

6 Xxxxthat's 2013?

7 MS. COUGHLIN: 2013. Our vintage category

8 two from the 2013 sample, I'm going to apply these

9 multipliers to that.

10 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So the whole

11 generalized building thing is really just to give

12 weights associated with these different installation

13 conditions you can have for the air conditioner and

14 the actual energy use of an air conditioner is taken

15 from this sample of the 1033 buildings that were

16 simulated for the previous rule. So what we do to

17 sort of align these two sets of information, take the

18 1033 building and essentially assign these buildings

19 to one of these three categories. And take the CUAC

20 load per ton category across all the buildings that

21 are in there and use that to represent the

22 generalized buildings BEGIN NOTE.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

1 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, again.

2 In that chart, we saw where we saw the

3 nine census zone and then the occupancy types, those

4 are the zones, you're developing weightings for each

5 one of those, that matrix, is that what you're

6 saying?

7 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.

8 MR. STARR: Okay.

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. Because of

10 limitations in the data, we can't sort of fully

11 resolve everything. So we focus with did 1033

12 buildings on building type, region and vintage only.

13 So -- and then as I said, so basically so I can take,

14 say, office buildings in New England and I take all

15 the office buildings that are in New England that are

16 in the sample and they have weights associated with

17 them relative to the CBECS 95, and then I take a

18 weighted average of how those loads were scaled to

19 per unit, and that becoming my representative load

20 for an office building in New England. And then if

21 I -- I have the vintage categories one and two

22 already in CBECS, and then to make the vintage
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

1 category three, I multiply by that first multiplier,

2 to make the category four, I multiply by the second

3 multiplier.

4 MR. STARR: I have a question.

5 So on the sample, you have a thousand thirty-three,

6 and what you're saying is that is not enough

7 buildings really to have a statistical sample enough

8 so you have to fill in the holes with some

9 assumptions on that, is that what you're saying? Or

10 is 1033 enough to fill out that matrix?

11 MS. COUGHLIN: 1033 essentially gives me

12 region, building type and vintage category.

13 MR. STARR: Okay.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Occasionally there might be

15 something missing and I have to do a bit of patch but

16 it's mostly okay.

17 MR. STARR: Okay.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: But is it a little bit,

19 again --

20 MR. STARR: So you get that for all the

21 vintage stuff you have, you project forward with

22 those factors and that gives you a sample.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

2 MR. STARR: As the thing will be in 2019.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

4 MR. STARR: Okay.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Again, to do the building

6 size and the type of air handler system, we just use

7 percentage distributions from CBECS 2012 because

8 that's our latest data set. Because AEO does not

9 project out to that level of detail. And then the

10 only other footnote to this is that we -- we filter

11 the buildings so that you're not putting a 30-ton

12 unit in a building that only needs ten tons of

13 cooling. And we also filtered for this version of

14 the analysis, for are the seven and a half ton

15 sample, we also filtered out multi-story buildings.

16 We felt it inappropriate to put a lot of seven and a

17 half ton units on a tall building.

18 So --

19 MR. STARR: That kind of addresses, we

20 were talking about that yesterday, particularly the

21 office building in Chicago, the one we looked at for

22 a long time.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

1 That was a really tall building. The idea of putting

2 seven and a half tons on a 15-story office building,

3 populating that building didn't make a lot of sense.

4 So that's what that's for.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh.

6 Okay. So then the last item to describe

7 is the -- we discussed in the working group, we

8 discussed issues with the cooling load factors. And

9 then the fan power calculations are actually have

10 changed much more significantly for a couple of

11 reasons. Number one is we're now, we were previously

12 using the minimum stage for the fan when the system

13 was in heating mode and now we're using the maximum

14 stage, based on input. The NOPR calculations used,

15 to estimate the way the fan power would change

16 according to the external. It used a linear

17 relationship to temperature instead of using stage.

18 That can actually under estimate fan power in certain

19 regions. So we've now converted that to using the

20 stage that the system is operating in. But the

21 biggest change, by far, is introducing building ESPs

22 that are higher than the test procedure ESP.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

1 So the seven and half ton test procedure is 0.25 and

2 the 15 ton is 0.35. And the BLAST simulation data

3 has a.75 or 1.25 ESP assigned to each building. So

4 Navigant generated fan power curves for their 7.75

5 and 1.25, BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE which we're using in

6 the energy calculation. For the sake of getting some

7 kind of number to look at the effect of the

8 conversion curve that has been discussed, we added

9 the .2 for all buildings when we hit EL3 and higher.

10 So, again, that's something that has been

11 discussed and we can revisit it. What we will talk

12 about today has that building sample and you get that

13 .2, so the fan power will increase a lot when you add

14 the additional pressure, so it kind of moderates the

15 energy efficiency savings when you go to EL3 and up.

16 MR. STARR: So I have a question about

17 that. You know, so I think I understand why you use

18 .75 and 1.25, you pulled out the BLAST model that was

19 using the energy simulation, so the thought is that's

20 how you generate the relative proportion to fan to

21 compressor energy. And so you went back to the BLAST

22 model and used the same external pressures, which
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

1 makes sense, in a way. But one of the thing I would

2 say is even in, you know, I think lords favorite 90.1

3 model a small commercial office building which would

4 be -- I don't know exactly the square footage but he

5 is using 2.5 not 3xxx. They use a total static

6 pressure of 2.5 which is a lot greater than 1.25 and

7 .75. So I'm not really concerned about -- I mean it

8 would be nice if you used a higher fan energy.

9 What I'm more concerned about the relative weights of

10 your external static pressure to conversion curve

11 which we now know is going to go up. Because what it

12 does is essentially it disfavors higher EL levels

13 because they have conversion curves. So if you

14 disproportionately -- in other words, if you miss the

15 static pressure by a factor of two but you don't miss

16 the static pressure on the conversion curve by a

17 factor of two, it unfairly disadvantages the higher

18 EL levels. So I'm okay with the .757 and the 1.25.

19 But if you're going to stay at those numbers then you

20 also need to adjust your conversion, your pressure

21 drop conversion curve down. You either need to move

22 up to .7 or the 1.25 and and the convery curve or you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

1 need to drop them proportion.

2 Do you see what I'm saying?

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I understand.

4 MR. STARR: Okay. Lou, sorry.

5 One last thing I was going to say. While

6 you were talking about the AO -- AE -- AEO

7 projections, I want to ask you that question about in

8 the last year or the last 15 years how much is new

9 construction and I said projected that forward. You

10 can use that same thing for predicting your incidence

11 of conversion curve for EL 3, right? Because new

12 construction, you're not going to have conversion

13 curve, so you can use that to predict the curve of --

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. Actually we will do

15 that -- we will do that based on the shipments model.

16 We will use the shipments model on the base versus

17 new construction and then we can find that weight.

18 BEGIN NOTE yes.

19 MR. STARR: Okay. Then also embedded in

20 that is just that not every single new replacement

21 unit necessarily needs a conversion curve or -- well,

22 actually maybe that's not true. So --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

1 MS. COUGHLIN: Listen, we can implement a

2 fraction of buildings get ago conversion curve.

3 That is not a difficult thing to implement. It's

4 just a question of what is the fraction going to be.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you contending the

6 new construction would require the conversion

7 curvexx?

8 MS. COUGHLIN: I think he is saying not

9 all replacements require a new conversion curb.

10 MR. STARR: In other words, if you were

11 going to project forward shipments, by the end of

12 that period how much will be new construction or how

13 much of that sample or thing are new construction,

14 those don't need conversion curbs in addition the

15 replacement units don't necessarily need conversion

16 curves, either. That part becomes a little harder to

17 figure out what that is. But the new construction is

18 a little straightforward.

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

20 And the example I think of, which is

21 probably not overly common, is the kind of depressure

22 that we occasionally see in both offices and schools,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

1 where you're doing enough shell work that you can

2 downsize, the loads are reduced, consequently, you

3 can replace the old larger unit with a new smaller

4 unit at higher efficiency that may still fit the same

5 curve, even though it's an EL3 or 5, reduce the loads

6 consequently.

7 MR. STARR: And, you know, the other thing

8 to think about, too, is that in your shipments,

9 you're predicting a much lower shipments in the

10 future, and so I don't know if that jibes with the

11 AEO projection.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: We used the base case

13 shipments.

14 MR. STARR: Okay. All right. We use AEO

15 has been put to the shipments model so they're all

16 consistent.

17 MR. STARR: I see.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: We can get a better

19 estimate because we have the actual turnover in the

20 shipments model.

21 Moving on to the numbers. So I'm using

22 CAV, VAV because I'm thinking of the building. But
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

1 really this is the staged air volume for the actual

2 design of staged air volume. So essentially, so we

3 have the NOPR numbers. So this is the average annual

4 kit Watt hours per unit. And we have the cooling and

5 then the fan and then the total would be for the NOPR

6 on the left and the revised analysis on the right.

7 So you can see the fan energy increases. If you look

8 at the engineering data for ESB, for seven and a half

9 tons, for both capacities, when you go from test

10 procedure to .75, the fan power goes up by 50

11 percent. When you go to 1.25, it goes up by a

12 hundred percent.

13 MR. STARR: Yeah. So, you know, the

14 reason I'm harping on this is if you think when we're

15 talking about .75 and 1.25, you double that number

16 again, you see those numbers you just mentioned will

17 double yet again. So that as why I think this is a

18 pretty important number to get ahold of because I

19 think it will show that a lot of the energy used in a

20 piece of equipment is really fan energy and it's not

21 reflected in the test procedure.

22 Q. There was a load factor error in the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

1 cooling load calculation in the NOPR, so that's one

2 of the reasons why there's a big change.

3 MR. THARP: That's what was discussed at

4 the March 19th meeting, LBNL.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: What's the issue with the

6 seven and a half ton on the load factors? There was

7 some --

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, the way we were

9 calculating load -- hi, Greg Rosenquist, LBNL.

10 One thing that Rusty saw when we were in

11 Berkeley is that, you know, our cooling factor was so

12 messed up and it resulted in, I think, a 50 percent

13 reduction in cooling delivered by the time you got to

14 EL5 -- EL4 for seven and a half tons. And it was so

15 dramatic because we started out with a one-stage

16 baseline, we were moving to multiple stages at the

17 max tax. So it wasn't as dramatic an effect on 15

18 tons because the staging was xxxtwo-stage throughout.

19 Yeah that was a big correction and it really affected

20 you know why you went from 13,000 in the base case,

21 baseline to 3500 at EL4 for the NOPR.

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So there's a number
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

1 of things -- let's see, does this work? No. So we

2 can see, for example, the relative size of -- I mean

3 the magnitude of energy savings from here to here has

4 gone down a bit, it's -- this was 10,000 this, is now

5 6,000. But if we go to our new EL5, we're up to

6 9,000 again, so it's somewhat comparable. You can

7 see the difference between having the staged versus

8 constant air volume in the fan power just at EL1 and

9 EL2.

10 There is, let's see, EL3 is where the

11 conversion curve comes in, so the fan power does

12 actually go up a little bit. And then, you know,

13 there are continuing refinements that we will be

14 making to the energy use analysis, so these are not

15 fixed numbers but sort of getting the order of

16 magnitude. And then for 15-ton --

17 MR. STARR: So actually if you go back to

18 that last one, so if we look at the total on the far

19 right, as you go up on EL 3 levels, the amount of

20 energy is actually going up, three to 3.54.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

22 MR. STARR: So how -- if you look at 14.8
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

37

1 and you go to 19.9, if you were to go out and it

2 means your most efficient unit and they say okay

3 here's our 19.9 and you were to look -- well,

4 actually let's do the 15.8, as opposed to 14.8, you

5 actually see the higher IEER uses more energy than

6 the 14.8 IEER. That's -- so --

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Test procedure is not the

8 same as the energy analysis, right?

9 MR. STARR: Well, this is the important of

10 the external static pressure because I can tell you

11 the higher efficiency unit uses less energy than the

12 lower efficiency unit.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: The design --

14 MR. STARR: Or does it?

15 actually that's a good question for the manufacturer.

16 Does the higher efficiency unit use more energy than

17 the lower efficiency unit?

18 MR. THARP: Again, the reality as you

19 stated, the test procedure does not include

20 ventilation energy. So there's a disconnect. The

21 reality is there's a disconnect between the way it's

22 tested and the way it's applied for total energy
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

38

1 consumption.

2 MR. STARR: Wow.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: So the proportion of fan

4 energy will be much lower in the test procedure so

5 that's why --

6 MR. STARR: I'll argue in the real world

7 you'll save more energy in the 15.8. Is that what

8 you're saying?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

10 MR. THARP: Yes, but will you save energy.

11 MR. DeLASKI: This is the real-world

12 number.

13 MR. STARR: They have the external

14 pressure wrong. Typically real world, when they

15 adjust static pressures up to real world, you will

16 save energy. That's what I suggest.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Possibly not. Because the

18 test procedure weights the fan energy less. So if

19 you are not improving the fan as much, say -- say the

20 difference between EL3 and EL3.5 is that EL3.5 does

21 haven't as many improvements on the fan but it has

22 much better improvements on the cooling, if you put
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

39

1 that in a situation where the fan energy use is much

2 higher than what the test procedure is, you're gonna

3 get worse performance.

4 MR. STARR: What will happen is your base

5 rates will come up on the relative magnitude of this

6 conversion. What's making this worse, 13,000 to

7 13709 is the conversion curve, right?

8 MS. COUGHLIN: No. They both have

9 conversion curves.

10 MR. STARR: They both have conversions.

11 MS. COUGHLIN: They both come in at EL 3.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought you said.

13 MR. STARR: 2.5 does, 3.5 doesn't.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, from Carrier.

15 My understanding is that the designs are

16 different that are used for the 14.8 versus the 15.8,

17 right?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So that's why you're seeing

20 difference. So whatever the design they're using as

21 a base, there's different tradeoffs between fan power

22 and refrigeration system design.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

40

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: So you know, it's just --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: They prescribed an

4 engineering design and it's what we will use.

5 MR. WHITWELL: The way the analysis is

6 done, using existing designs that are at certain

7 levels depending on what that manufacturer did to get

8 to that EEER level is gonna have different --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us might do it in

10 fans, some of us might do it in refrigeration.

11 MR. STARR: It's very unintuitive, I'll

12 say, because you go from 14.0 to 14.9 and look at

13 your total energy is. Actually the 14.5, the 14.5 up

14 to 19.9. So you jump a lot in your IEER but really,

15 you went down a hundred, I don't know, whatever that

16 is, 174 Btu's out of 13,000. So it's like .00 -- .01

17 percent. But you jumped in -- you jumped almost 25

18 percent in IEER, but you actually only reduced your

19 energy by one percent. So it's --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: All in your choices in what

21 you do in the development and there were choices.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think you get a
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

41

1 diminishing returns thing, right.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

3 MR. WHITWELL: If you get up to the

4 negative level.

5 MR. DeLASKI: This isn't a diminishing

6 return, this is a bigger return. BEGIN NOTE.

7 MR. WHITWELL: It is a matter of design.

8 They're not the same design.

9 MR. DeLASKI: To me, you see that number.

10 That's a disturbing set of numbers.

11 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I'm just

12 trying to explain why the number would be different.

13 I don't know what --

14 MR. DeLASKI: If I were a distribution

15 maybe.

16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know what is behind

17 this, but I think that's probably what is going on.

18 It's a different --

19 MR. STARR: Actually California has

20 complained about this, they give rebates on maybe

21 good.

22 MR. HUNT: It's a big problem.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

42

1 MR. STARR: They give the rebates on the

2 energy levels. I have never seen think it bad.

3 Except they were expressing a 25 percent reduction in

4 energy use and they only get ten. BEGIN NOTE END

5 NOTE.

6 And actually, EPA has done quite a bit on

7 that. BEGIN NOTE yeah, this magnitude isn't quite

8 that bad.

9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I want to

10 rant.

11 We ain't gonna fix this between now and

12 June 15th, but we do have a strategic issue that IER

13 is a big improvement but it still ain't fixed all the

14 problems nor the consulting engineer trying to choose

15 the right equipment and for the equipment designer

16 trying to meet the customer needs and the rating

17 needs. There's lots of opportunity for work after

18 June 15th.

19 MR. WHITWELL: No question.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No question.

21 MR. DeLASKI: I agree with that. I'm

22 still not convinced I understand -- I know I don't
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

43

1 understand. I'm not convinced we understand why

2 these numbers are following this pattern. I mean the

3 IER metric is part of it, but I'm not convinced it is

4 all of it --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Go back in.

6 MR. DeLASKI: I understand we're not going

7 to change IEER and that was part of the ground rules

8 when we went into this final rule, although I hope we

9 do have some forward plan, as Harvey is suggesting,

10 to address the energy. But what I'm hearing also is

11 to -- and there are some other -- so there are two

12 things that -- you threads that I'm trying to figure

13 out. One is that it may be the particular unit that

14 was picked, I mean there is some unit that has been

15 selected to -- to model this, right. And maybe

16 that -- so is that unit somehow anomalous or was it

17 a -- was it a good choice, I guess. And then the

18 other question I would have --

19 MS. MEYERS: I would give that -- it's a

20 seven and a half ton unit so I don't no that there's

21 a lot of -- I would say --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the engineering,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

44

1 what you pick.

2 MR. DeLASKI: That's not the question.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Do you want to look at the

4 link nearing?

5 MR. DeLASKI: My second question is, back

6 to Louis's point that he has been raising repeatedly,

7 are we not capturing, the selection of the external

8 static pressure is having an effect here and is the

9 relative impact of the curve BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

10 MR. STARR: Yeah. I was --

11 MR. DeLASKI: And how does that load flow

12 through.

13 MR. STARR: I haven't fully digested what

14 Katie said, I'm still thinking about it but she was

15 indicating she didn't think -- a higher static -- a

16 more realistic static may still see the same

17 characteristics of what we're seeing in that chart.

18 Is that kind of what you were saying or

19 you're not sure but your sense is --

20 MS. COUGHLIN: In the test procedure, you

21 have the cooling energy plus the fan energy because

22 the total energy that you use to get the basis. If I
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

45

1 go from one level, I have the option of improving

2 either one of them.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

4 MS. COUGHLIN: I can decrease the fan

5 energy. If I can increase the cooling energy, I can

6 decrease the fan energy and maybe, when I go to a

7 situation where the fan energy is twice as big as it

8 was in the test proceeds ire, I no long very that

9 ratio. That's why you need to see independently the

10 efficiency improvements on the two components to

11 really be able to understand where the -- you're sort

12 of in a two-dimensional space in reality and we're

13 drawing a line through it.

14 MR. STARR: It would be great if the

15 higher levels had fan technology, as opposed to

16 compressor technology.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef

18 Westphalen.

19 At the field ESP two, the one and a

20 quarter, you know, at the high stage, I've got for

21 the two and a half, I've got 1200 watts of indoor fan

22 than the EL three, I've got 12.4. And the EL 3.5,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

46

1 I've got 1504.

2 MR. STARR: This is not the conversion

3 curve.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's one and a half, 1.25.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's one and a quarter.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: This design uses those fans

7 and this is taking the fan power at those fans.

8 MR. STARR: This is the unit independent

9 of the fan.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: The other aspect of this

12 is in the building analysis, that fan power more

13 applies to the heating hours and the ventilation

14 hours, maybe at a lower stage. BEGIN NOTE.

15 MR. STARR: So really fundamentally the

16 problem is trying to link IEER with higher EL levels

17 is not a very good science because they don't

18 necessarily advantage the things that would actually

19 save you energy. I mean if you think bit, if you

20 were to go back to that page where she has the

21 equipment or the energy division numbers -- or not

22 the numbers, but the amount of energy used, if you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

47

1 are to go out and get all those -- you were to go

2 over -- you said EL levels. If you had multiple

3 models, you could see which models were starting to

4 use less energy. Those would be the ones you would

5 typically select. In other words if I found a

6 model -- I don't know.

7 She has some representative ones here for

8 EL 3. If I were to find another model out there at

9 14.8 that had a really low fan energy and that might

10 be a better model to use for EL 3 because it will

11 will get fan savings out of it potentially. It

12 sounds like weary shaping up to have a lot of energy

13 use based on fans so therefore --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: And you might not right at

15 that point. That's when -- when you start -- right?

16 When you started to get to 3, 3.5, 4 and 5, you were

17 finding less and less models so you were having to

18 basically pick, right?

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. We can advocate

20 models which has --

21 MR. STARR: I like that.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Which has potential
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

48

1 issues.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't. You're not a

3 designer, sorry.

4 MR. STARR: Give me that software. I

5 guess what I would ask would be from the average

6 size, the high every EL levels, is there a way to

7 select different ones that are showing -- that would

8 show -- if I were to look down that column, instead

9 of seeing flat numbers starting at 3 down, I would

10 like to see decreasing numbers, if you could change

11 the model selection, such that I would see that.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: That isn't gonna -- again,

13 the issue here is that the test -- anything that

14 passes the test procedure can be sold.

15 MR. STARR: I see.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

17 MR. STARR: So it's not representative, is

18 what you're saying.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, it's representative.

20 This is not the only model that you can design at

21 that EL but it -- you can design this model, it will

22 pass the test procedure and it may be more energy
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

49

1 intensive in a ventilation-heavy application.

2 That's just -- again, that's the issue for the test

3 procedure versus the field condition, so I don't know

4 that there's a solution. I mean it would be useful

5 to have a broader diversity models for the energy use

6 calculation.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: And I think if we had four

9 different EL3 models and some of them had fan

10 improvements, you would see different numbers here.

11 But it doesn't get around the fact that anything --

12 anything that passes test procedure is considered to

13 be --

14 MR. STARR: I see.

15 MR. SACHS: Let me see if I can go back to

16 something, this is Harvey, I want to go back to

17 something you said a minute ago that we need to be

18 plotting this in two spaces.

19 The issue is that by law, our metric is

20 trying to combine the measurements of two different

21 things that are really pretty independent variables.

22 It's trying to combine the air-moving efficiency in
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

50

1 and the refrigeration efficiency. This is an

2 inherent structural problem that we have to cruise

3 through here at this time but it's the long-term

4 strategic.

5 MR. STARR: You should take this slide out

6 and drop night the fan negotiation next week.

7 MR. SACHS: Be careful you may get. BEGIN

8 NOTE wall wall if you move this way, then we can

9 decide. You cannot double count. We can defend it

10 down here, but you can't do it in more than one place

11 at the same time.

12 MR. STARR: I agree there's an issue. I'm

13 being facetious.

14 MR. SACHS: Of course we can, but we

15 shouldn't.

16 MR. STARR: I think the real solution is

17 trying to modify the test procedure for IEER, which I

18 think will be the solution. But I mean obviously

19 we're not going to fix it here. So this is for just

20 for nur -- if you're interested, you have the same

21 numbers for the warm parts of the country and the

22 cool parts of the country, but I'm just going to move
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

51

1 on to the 15 ton. We have the same table. Yeah. So

2 again, you're seeing a large increase in the fan

3 energy use. And an increase in the cooling energy

4 use, too, as well.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: I wanted to point out

6 that EL 2.5 is an anomaly here and, you know, the

7 folks at Navigant gave us new correlations for that

8 design which we haven't been able to process -- we

9 are not able to process before this meeting.

10 So those EL 2.5 numbers are going -- you should just

11 ignore them, so --

12 MR. DeLASKI: And that problem you think

13 is segregated, that problem you think is segregated

14 to that one EL?

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's that one EL, yes.

16 MR. THARP: Across all sizes?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, just 15-ton.

18 MR. STARR: It does look like there is a

19 better trend towards buyer IEER or less energy use in

20 this case. Or -- I don't know.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: You'll that issue from

22 IEER from 3 to 5, you still have the same issue
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

52

1 between the compressor and the fan. END NOTE.

2 MR. STARR: You're really staying the same

3 thing. Especially E4 and 5 -- well, you go down a

4 little bit.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: You go EL2 to 3, you see

6 the same thing but the fan.

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: The same thing here, the

9 conversion curve at three?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: So I just have one slide

13 left on the load factor issue, which I am actually

14 not convinced is going to make a large difference but

15 we will do the sensitivity. So the issue here is I'm

16 just going to do a very simple example. Suppose we

17 have two 15-ton units in a building and we call

18 complaint the hourly energy use, so let's say in a

19 given hour, the heat load is put it in tons for

20 simplicity, is 20 tons. So I need more than one

21 unit. The question is how do I distribute that load

22 across my multiple units. So what we're currently
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

53

1 doing is just evenly distributing across all the

2 units in the -- in the building. So in this case,

3 since I have 30 tons of capacity and I need to remove

4 20 sons of heat, that gives me a load factor of

5 two-thirds, which is the percentage of the hours that

6 the unit would run in order to meet that heat removal

7 requirement. If you ignore the complications due to

8 staging, the reason why this makes a difference is we

9 have a degradation factor in the compressor energy.

10 So if it's cycling on and off, the expectation is

11 that it will use more energy than if it was just

12 fully loaded nor the whole hour. And the formula

13 that we have is this 1.13 times .13 minus the load

14 factor. BEGIN NOTE.

15 In this case, it gives me load factor of

16 1.3 for a load factor of 2 over three.

17 So that means my energy consumption, tie the energy

18 consumption and I multiply it by that factor and get

19 a 4.3 increase due to the cycling. So an alternative

20 approach to this calculation is not necessarily more

21 realistic, it's just another way of doing it, is to

22 say I'm going to take my 20 tons, I'm going to put 15
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

54

1 tons on one unit and five tons on another unit.

2 That means nor the one unit I have a load factor of

3 one and no degradation and the other unit, I now have

4 a load factor of one-third and my degradation factor

5 goes up. So if you do that calculation but then if

6 you take sort of the average degradation between the

7 two of them, you get a new factor of 1.029. So we

8 can essentially changing the energy consumption by, I

9 guess that's point -- 1.5 percent by redistributing

10 the load. So you know, and if you do this in you're

11 sort of going in and out of different stages there,

12 may be an effect but I think that largely it is --

13 for the most part, you know, zero order energy

14 consumption is proportional to the amount of heat

15 that you have to remove and whatever kind of capacity

16 is available based on external temperatures. BEGIN

17 NOTE BEGIN NOTE. So this is really a higher,

18 second-order effect that may change by a couple of

19 percent.

20 So we're going to do a sensitivity where

21 we go through this exercise just in the upper stage,

22 just turning on a number of units that is required to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

55

1 meet the load and having a load factor be only on one

2 unit, and that kind of a bound essentially on the

3 minimum. If you had a perfectly optimized system

4 that only turned on when it was absolutely needed,

5 that's what you would get. So that will at least

6 give us an order of magnitude for this effect and

7 then we can, you know, come to some agreement about

8 what's a reasonable representation. There is -- but

9 as I said, I'm looking at this as something that is

10 gonna be a couple of percent, at the most.

11 There is one case where we actually are

12 doing something that I think is not correct, which is

13 when this system is in cooling/heating mode, we have

14 all the units turned on and so we're gonna fix that

15 for cooling/heating and make sure that the cooling is

16 confined the a small number of units. But, again, I

17 don't expect it to have a huge impact on the answer.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, with a ACEEE.

19 I have a question because I thought more about

20 residential. My sense is that cycling, particularly

21 relatively short cycling, affects the SHR. I'm not

22 sure if we're fully capturing latent and there
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

56

1 probably is no bigger factor than when you talk about

2 here. Are we going to see the possibility that folks

3 might be tuning that question of running one full and

4 one part, which is a two-part, depending on what

5 climate they're in?

6 MS. COUGHLIN: I can produce results by

7 region, yeah. But really, again, we can't do that

8 type of analysis here. I can basically just, you

9 know -- there is sort aftermath problem. I can do a

10 kind of mathematical loading, but I can't explain or

11 investigate how it would be done in real --

12 MR. SACHS: The question may be actually

13 more for the manufacturers. We can see these same

14 SHR variations as we change our load pattern.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. STARR: I think, though, in the

17 commercial isn't the fan running all the time, so you

18 don't have the same effect? The moisture that comes

19 off the coil is not breathing.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Right. The fan is

21 typically going to be running all the time. It will

22 run stage, but, still, it will be running.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

57

1 MS. HOOTMAN: But in the southeast, you

2 still have a huge amount of it. They're doing

3 dissimilars a lot to dry up spaces if you have a huge

4 amount infiltration of hot, humid weather.

5 MR. SACHS: That sounds like a good one.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Kind of like today.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: So that's it? Any more

9 questions on this?

10 MR. SACHS: Brainstorm.

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Are you next?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm next. Did you

13 want to break or want to turn into the LCC?

14 MR. STARR: I think a break would be good

15 myself.

16 MR. BANTLE: It's 9:11. Let's take 10

17 minutes.

18 (A break was taken.)

19 MR. KIDO: Mike Kido, DOE.

20 I would understanding is we proposed this

21 in the context of the my understanding is that we had

22 issued requests for information that kind of outlined
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

58

1 the agency's position with respect to IEER and EER

2 and we had also proposed to make the change in the

3 context of the actual notice of proposed rule-making,

4 which when was that, September?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, it came out

6 September, right? XxxMike Mike so if you're asking

7 whether there's been a-- a final decision that's been

8 made, on making that switch, that has not been made

9 yet. We're -- we're still at the proposal stage and

10 everything is framed within the context of making

11 that switch over to IEER.

12 MR. DeLASKI: In fairness to Karen's

13 question, it would be tough at this point to go back

14 because we'd have to go do everything all over again,

15 essentially. I mean there is a certain -- we can

16 hardly meet the legal dead length and do everything

17 all over again. I thought we had a consensus based

18 on our earlier private conversations and also your

19 written comments and our written comments that IEER

20 was the direction to go again.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. There were no

22 adverse comments to do other than the metric
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

59

1 proposed.

2 Did I state that fairly enough?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

4 MS. MEYERS: You know, John, I'm gonna

5 push back on you before and you've also had, never

6 had adverse comments before and the DOE doesn't

7 necessarily always follow that path. So from my

8 perspective, I'm telling everyone in my company, I

9 think it he is IEER. It's like well, are we for

10 sure? I'm like no, there's nothing official. So

11 when we're doing this analysis and we're looking at

12 these different things, are you sure it's going to be

13 IER? I'm pretty sure. But there's nothing official

14 that says that it is, so when we're -- you know, I

15 just find it interesting that since that's not

16 official --

17 MR. DeLASKI: You want to vote?

18 MS. MEYERS: But we don't have any

19 analysis on EER so it's just, you know, I just --

20 it's almost like, you know, which, the DOE is setting

21 the efficiency standards before they do the test

22 procedure that I've commented on many times before,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

60

1 which is just wrong. So if this is gonna be the path

2 forward, I think manufacturers, for sure, need to

3 have something from the department that officially

4 says the new metric for commercial HV/AC is IEER,

5 before we go down this path, just under these

6 assumptions.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'll push back a little

8 bit here. I think regardless of this committee being

9 here today, the department would have gone down its

10 normal path, which was proposed the metric change, as

11 we did, seek comments, which we did, no comment that

12 we received said that switching to IEER wasn't the

13 right thing to do, so the department was going down

14 that path and here we are today, only -- only talking

15 about IEER.

16 MS. MEYERS: And so --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: If we want to vote in the

18 committee and put it as part of the recommendation,

19 I'm happy for that to happen to give you more

20 comfort. But this is not going to be a document

21 until the next --

22 MS. MEYERS: So are you going to adopt the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

61

1 test procedure?

2 MR. THARP: It already is. So that was

3 stated previously.

4 MS. MEYERS: Jill says it's not final.

5 MR. THARP: It is. And that was part of

6 the RFI or NOPR something where it was noted that DOE

7 has adopted 343.60 with addendum one 2007, 2008,

8 something like that, or 2010, whatever year it is.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten.

10 MR. THARP: And which has IEER in it.

11 MS. MEYERS: That was in the RFI. Do we

12 have the official test procedure final rule from DOE

13 adopting the test procedure?

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: No.

15 MR. THARP: The 343.60 that is currently

16 adopted by DOE does have EER in it. BEGIN NOTEierier

17 is IEER END NOTE.

18 MS. MEYERS: All right.

19 MR. THARP: But it doesn't have -- we're

20 now in addendum two.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MR. THARP: And we're currently modifying.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

62

1 So part of our request would be for DOE to adopt the

2 latest and greatest version, which was provided to

3 DOE about a month ago. Our latest proposed version

4 was provided with request for comments. So I would

5 suggest that as part of this, as assuming we do move

6 along with IEER, that part of our agreement would be

7 that DOE would adopt 343.60 latest test revision.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: How would that change

9 anything we've been talking about in terms of the

10 analysis?

11 MR. THARP: Towards IEER.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: As far as analysis, it

13 won't. It's more about certification and making sure

14 it's right because barometric -- I believe there is a

15 new method revised methodology of temperature

16 sampling, barometric relief -- oh, elevation, you put

17 in the difference in elevation.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, the ground rules, as

19 I recall, said test procedure is off the table, and

20 that's was what I charted the working group to do. I

21 mean I appreciate you bringing that to the group, but

22 I think from this group's perspective, there's no
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

63

1 discussion of adopting test procedures.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But in the

3 supplemental, this comes out with a SNOPR, I mean

4 aren't you going to reference to what test standard,

5 that this is all --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we've been -- the

7 numbers we were creating were based on, I guess, the

8 version rusty just quoted.

9 MS. MEYERS: So, again, what exactly is

10 the test procedure that all this analysis is done

11 off? What is DOE's final test procedures? What is

12 the 343.60? I mean that's final, is there a

13 document?

14 MR. THARP: 34.60 addendum one.

15 MS. MEYERS: That's what's final?

16 MR. THARP: That's what's currently in

17 use.

18 MS. MEYERS: So do we have a final rule

19 from DOE --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Not final rule, NOPR.

21 MS. MEYERS: It's just a NOPR.

22 MR. THARP: Well, from a test procedure
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

64

1 standpoint.

2 MS. MEYERS: From a test procedure

3 standpoint I thought it was just in the NOPR.

4 MR. AMRANE: I believe there is we adopted

5 343.60.

6 MS. MEYERS: Addendum one?

7 MR. THARP: Addendum one.

8 MS. MEYERS: Nobody in this room knows the

9 answer to this question.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: It says here addendum one

11 and addendum two in the footnote from the C.F.R.

12 Addendum one and addendum two.

13 MR. McCABE: This is Michael McCabe.

14 DOE may have adopted the ASHRAE standard,

15 but if you look at the DOE test procedure, there is

16 no reference to IEER in the test procedure. For the

17 purpose of the EER test procedure, the department has

18 adopted the later version and put in addendum one.

19 But the department has not adopted as a test

20 procedure IEER. So, therefore, the DOE test

21 procedure still is EER. They can adopt the updated

22 ASHRAE, AHRI test procedure for EER, and within those
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

65

1 updated test procedures, there can be IEER elements

2 in them. But as long as the test, DOE does not

3 reference those IEER requirements for the purpose of

4 DOE's test, they're irrelevant. It's only after the

5 department formally adopts the IEER metric and those

6 parts of the industry standard that it then becomes

7 embraced by DOE.

8 MS. MEYERS: Thank you.

9 MR. DeLASKI: But I still don't know what

10 the point is because ultimately this seems like this

11 was a negotiation. It seems like we're going through

12 a contentious rule-making context, for some reason.

13 The point is that we have a consensus, I thought,

14 that was emerged quite a long time ago that the new

15 IEER, the latest and greatest, as Rusty said, which

16 apparently is still being tweaked, I presume around

17 the edges, you know, by the industry, which industry

18 wants to see adopted, latest and greatest, is still

19 being tweaked. That's fine, right, because I see

20 people nodding it's around the edges. And that

21 that's the consensus, we want to move forward with

22 IEER.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

66

1 MS. MEYERS: And I just want the --

2 MR. DeLASKI: And the department has

3 proposed it as the basis, they're doing all this

4 analysis on it. They can't adopt it until you go

5 through a public rule-making process. You can't just

6 willy-nilly say, There it is, folks.

7 There has to be a public process for

8 comment. We're not going to stop all this and go

9 through another notes and comment to adopt it prior

10 to -- to adopt something that isn't even done yet,

11 according to Rusty. So I'm not quite sure what

12 you're driving at, Karen. Why don't we come back to

13 sort of the substance of trying to move things

14 forward.

15 I'm just struck that -- what's the

16 concern?

17 MS. MEYERS: Well, the concern is we're

18 looking at setting various efficiency levels for this

19 equipment on a metric that, you know, I don't have

20 anything official that the department is going to be

21 giving a federal metric. BEGIN NOTE we're all

22 assuming, that we made a lot of assumptions.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

67

1 MR. DeLASKI: This is pretty official.

2 The NOPR was pretty darn official.

3 What's the question about the NOPR?

4 MS. MEYERS: It's proposed.

5 MR. DeLASKI: Of course it is. You guys

6 asked for negotiation, we said yes. We're sitting

7 here, talking with you. So what's the problem?

8 MS. MEYERS: Just, you know, don't want

9 this to, you know, suddenly get held back as we're

10 going through these numbers and everyone's looking at

11 the effect of the power consumption on IEER, and I

12 just want to make sure that, you know, this is our

13 definite path forward.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in. At least

15 for this working group, is it -- is it fair to say

16 that everyone's under the -- that we will be under

17 the understanding that the test procedures are what

18 the IEER metrics for each, or the IEER and that's way

19 we're all moving forward? BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

20 From what I'm understanding is, it wasn't

21 Septemberxxx NOPR and all things are marching towards

22 using IEER. The formal adoption on that, though, how
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

68

1 does that -- that comes later?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we -- we reference

3 the addendum. I'll let Michael speak to that, to

4 Michael McCabe on that. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

5 MR. McCABE: END NOTE once -- we would

6 essentially, you know, since we've already proposed a

7 particular path, it would just be a matter of

8 finalizing it. So we have a final rule that says

9 this is a particular metric that we're going to be

10 using, here's -- here's how it's going to be --

11 here's how you would actually measure whether you're

12 meeting that particular level. And I don't have the

13 C.F.R. in front of me, so I don't know what it says

14 but I'm assuming based on what other folks have

15 already stated that we've already adopted the

16 relevant provisions that would enable us to use IEER

17 for the purposes of test procedure and standard.

18 I can go back and take a look just to make

19 sure but that's sort of my understanding of what

20 would happen next.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So then when we're done, it

22 is going to be in the rule that you were using IEER,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

69

1 so that should help the manufacturers.

2 MR. McCABE: That's correct. That's my

3 understanding.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that help?

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Would it be more

6 comfortable for everyone to vote to say that this

7 process is considering IEER the metric?

8 Karen, does that make you feel more

9 comfortable? Does DOE have to --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or is it a separate -- I

11 don't understand, process. I thought that thought

12 that adopting a test standard, you have a separate

13 process, separate rule-making process.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I get that. But I think

15 for this to say IEER is what we're basing all our

16 negotiation on maybe is an important thing. I

17 thought it was understood going in that is what we

18 were doing. But because we proposed it, because

19 we've shown every number that way. But if it makes

20 you feel more comfortable to have it in the term

21 sheet --

22 MS. MEYERS: I think, you know, it would
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

70

1 make me feel better because -- and we also need to

2 sign the adoption of the test procedure so that it

3 can go into effect. So that we can effect design

4 changes based upon the new efficiency standards.

5 MR. deLASKI: The two go hand in hand,

6 right? The standard, the test method is EER until

7 this new standard goes into effect, right? There's

8 no change with the federal required test method is --

9 until the moment, right, whatever the year is, you

10 know, 20' whatever it is, that becomes the new test

11 method. But you -- but you know what it is so you

12 can do the design work you need to do.

13 MS. MEYERS: So what you're proposing is

14 that the effective date of the new test procedure and

15 the new efficiency standard be the same?

16 MR. DeLASKI: Well, okay, effective date

17 and compliance. Otherwise, you would have a new

18 standard sooner.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me back it up and see if

20 we can get the one piece done and then we can go on

21 to another question, right?

22 We're going to ask for the understanding
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

71

1 that for analysis and your working group rule, we're

2 all going to be using IEER. Let's see a show if

3 everyone is okay with that.

4 (Participants raise hands.)

5 MR. HUNT: What is horizontal?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: That you can support it, go

7 along with it. The understanding is we're all using

8 IEER.

9 (Participants continue holding up hands.)

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Going once, going twice.

11 MS. MEYERS: I'm not voting. I'm

12 abstaining on this one.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Any thumbs down on the line?

14 (No response.)

15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then one

16 abstained, Karen, and the rest "yes."

17 Where do we need to go from here with

18 this?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me go back, we've

20 adopted almost entirely 340.360xxxx. It includes

21 IEER provisions. To the extent that this group feels

22 like we need to clarify anything, based on what we've
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

72

1 already done BEGIN NOTE END NOTE, that's fine, let's

2 move forward with doing that as we march forward.

3 But, I mean, I want to be clear that we're

4 negotiating on the IEER numbers. That's all we've

5 been talking about.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: We just agreed to it.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I know. I'm just saying.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: We have one more section to

9 go through. Why don't we get through that section

10 and then we'll come back and say how these numbers

11 look, right.

12 Do we need to modify any of these numbers,

13 in order to move forward with the analysis after the

14 working group?

15 MS. HOFFMAN: I just want to make sure,

16 Karen, you have some concerns?

17 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I still have some

18 concerns. You've adopted it. Today -- today, what

19 is the federal efficiency metric?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's EER now. We're not

21 talking about today's standards.

22 MR. deLASKI: You want to do the metric
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

73

1 today?

2 MS. MEYERS: We just need to make sure --

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're debating the 2019.

4 Isn't that what we're charged to do?

5 MS. MEYERS: So the test procedure needs

6 to be in enough time that allows manufactures to

7 design and certify products to this new IEER metric

8 that we are proposing in this negotiation.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: That test procedure is

10 already final.

11 MS. MEYERS: The current, it's not final

12 because the current federal metric is EER and what

13 you're proposing is a new federal metric becomes IEER

14 in 2019. So there has to be activity that changes

15 that.

16 MR. deLASKI: I think you're

17 misunderstanding. So the test method is final. It

18 is published as part of the federal -- as the Code of

19 Federal Regulations. You're just not required to

20 certify to that value. You can calculate it today.

21 You do.

22 MS. MEYERS: Well, we do, but it's not
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

74

1 a -- you know when you go over to the certification

2 side of DOE, the compliance and certification is on

3 EER.

4 MR. deLASKI: Like Rusty said, you guys

5 are working on that.

6 MS. MEYERS: No. Not that I'm aware of.

7 We're working on compliance and certification --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: We're revising 343.60,

9 there'll be an addendum three.

10 MR. THARP: It will be a 2015 version.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will be a 2015

12 version.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right now, Rusty, can you

14 test to EER, based on what is in the final code --

15 MR. THARP: Yes. But we would not want

16 you to test to that. We would want you to test to

17 the new version because it's -- elevation is very

18 important in the test.

19 MS. MEYERS: And today, your compliance

20 and certification program is on EER.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree wholeheartedly.

22 I'm talking about --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

75

1 MS. MEYERS: You always try and separate,

2 but they're not separated. So from a manufacturer,

3 when we're designing and certifying product, it needs

4 to be to the correct. And what you're gonna certify

5 and enforce to, those need to be the same thing.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree. Let me double

7 back a second. If, let's just say, January 1st you

8 had to certify IEER. Now forget about any of this

9 stuff that goes along with that, sampling and all

10 that. But is there something final today that can

11 let you test -- test your product and report an IEER

12 value, yes or no?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Nothing final. A new

14 version?

15 MR. THARP: Yes. The answer is yes.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes or no?

17 MS. MEYERS: Certified number is the one

18 that you're gonna design to.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's your test procedure,

20 you tell me.

21 MR. THARP: What is federally adopted is

22 what ASHRAE is using in our certification program
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

76

1 today for EER and IEER.

2 MR. AMRANE: Just going with AHRI, I think

3 to answer this question yes. But there are, I think

4 we made revision to the standard that we would like

5 Department of Energy to review before the new IEER

6 becomes the federal level (inaudible). BEGIN NOTE

7 and what we would like to you do is maybe start that

8 process so we have at least the reference to the

9 latest version of the IEER standard.

10 Is it something that you can do?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is addendum three?

12 MR. THARP: Technically it will be a 2015

13 version.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: It will take away the

15 addendums in all of those pieces.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we have that?

17 MR. THARP: You have a copy of the

18 proposed. We're waiting, actually at this point,

19 we're waiting to issue the final until we have

20 comments from DOE.

21 MR. deLASKI: Can we get a copy of that,

22 too?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

77

1 MR. THARP: Sure. We can send it to all

2 stakeholders.

3 MR. McCABE: This is Michael McCabe.

4 To answer your question, my answer to your

5 question would be no, which would be completely

6 different than today xxxx/KA reel. If somebody was

7 told they had to certify IEER to the DOE test

8 procedure, the first thing you'd have to do is go to

9 430, appendix M, to find the DOE test procedure, and

10 you'd look for IEER and you will not see IEER in 10

11 C.F.R., Part 430, the DOE test procedure. Go to

12 430.2, measures of energy use, you do not see IEER.

13 Yes, DOE has adopted the newer versions of the AHRI

14 standard, but for only the purpose of measuring EER.

15 They have not adopted those newer standards for the

16 purpose of measuring IEER because nowhere in the code

17 of federal regulations will you find IEER. So if a

18 manufacturer were to ask to you certify or if you

19 were to go to enforce and you were to pick up the

20 C.F.R., you can't find it, so you can't certify to

21 it. But if you were asked somebody to come up with a

22 measure that could go to the AHRI standards and
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

78

1 reasonably be able to pull out from that what the

2 assumptions are and test the product and give you

3 that a measure as to this is what we believe, this is

4 what we all assume IEER is, but there's nothing there

5 in the regulations to give an enforcement.

6 MR. deLASKI: And, Michael, you worked in

7 the program for 30 years.

8 MR. McCABE: 35, but who's counting.

9 MR. deLASKI: When, typically, when you

10 adopt a you that metric at what point in the process

11 would that become part of the federal regulations?

12 MR. McCABE: When you adopt an amendment

13 to the test procedures, you would amend 430 to have a

14 test method. You would amend 429 to add the

15 compliance requirements.

16 MR. THARP: Actually 430 --

17 MR. McCABE: I'm sorry, yes.

18 MR. THARP: -- is where the commercial is

19 and actually, I guess, so I guess I'm not following

20 the logic because what is in 431.68, I think it is

21 right now, specifically adopts the test procedure

22 which has IEER in it.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

79

1 MR. McCABE: They adopted for the purpose

2 of EER, not IEER. So if you look at the test

3 procedure -- thank you for checking me. It's 431.

4 If you look at 431, look at 429, you do not see IEER.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in because I

6 want to get one conversation going. So where do we

7 go with this, though? Because I understand there is

8 this addendum that's out there. What do we need to

9 do with that?

10 MR. AMRANE: We would like you to review

11 the latest version of the standards to 4360 and start

12 the process about adopting to the C.F.R. And I think

13 Michael is right, I was referring -- referencing the

14 standards itself that we have currently which has the

15 IEER metric, but I think technically Michael is

16 correct that we have to do that, regardless.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. My understanding

18 is if today we did it today, you'd have 180 days to

19 report the IEER, wouldn't you? Is that what you

20 want? I didn't think that's what you wanted. I

21 thought you wanted to wait. That's the requirement.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Days to test, once you adopt
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

80

1 it.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to slow that

3 train down a little bit?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, I really think

5 we're all on the same page here. Except for this new

6 addendum three or whatever we're calling it is, to

7 me, the only thing in my mind that's at odds with

8 what DOE was thinking and what the group is thinking

9 in terms of moving forward.

10 MR. STARR: You know, maybe it would be

11 best, this is Louis. Maybe it would be best if we

12 continue on and maybe manufacturers can chat amongst

13 themselves a little bit during lunch or whenever,

14 come back and see if they have more thoughts about it

15 or --

16 MS. MEYERS: I don't think it's a

17 manufacturer issue. Maybe it is. I just want to, as

18 part of the record, that DOE has to follow the proper

19 process in adopting the current test procedure in an

20 amount of time or it has to be indicated in the term

21 sheet what DOE -- to adopt ineffective date BEGIN

22 NOTE I just wanted as part of the record that the --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

81

1 that DOE has to follow the process to -- or to give

2 manufacturers some assurance that they're gonna do

3 that because they can't come out with a new test

4 procedure that's finalized, says they could adopt

5 this new metric and expect manufacturers to be able

6 to comply within a few months. So it needs to be

7 part of the term sheet or something that gives

8 manufacturers some assurance on what they're gonna

9 do. I've been through this with water heaters so I

10 know it's a big issue when they don't do it in time,

11 it makes it impossible to comply with the new

12 standard.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Furnace fans?

14 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, furnace fans. So it's

15 a important part of this negotiated rule making that

16 we have, at least if my company's perspective,

17 everything is going to be contingent upon DOE giving

18 us that assurance that the test procedure in effect

19 will be and that they will be changing the metric to

20 IEER, and they will be adopting the latest version of

21 the test procedure. So that we can have, we can use

22 those, whenever this is final, those next few years,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

82

1 to design and certify our equipment, be ready to

2 certify our equipment accordingly. They can be

3 certified to EER, that's what the compliance and

4 enforcement program at DOE tells us to do. So it's

5 very important that those steps be followed or it be

6 part of the term sheet because otherwise, you get

7 into this process where you have, you know, some

8 product certified with EER, some certified with IEER,

9 and it's a mess when you change metrics. I'm not

10 saying I disagree with the IEER. It probably is a

11 better metric, but, you know, there is a difference

12 in how a manufacturer is going to design a product if

13 he's certifying to EER or IEER. That's the whole,

14 you know, that's how you design your product because

15 you are required to certify it per the DOE test

16 procedure standards. So just a very important thing

17 that, you know, it's never really been, we are going

18 down this assumption and, you know, I just want it

19 clearly stated and as part of the term sheet that doe

20 if DOE is going to do this.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, my only comment

22 there is that the charge to this group was not do
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

83

1 anything. I'm not saying DOE is supposed to do

2 anything, but I don't think this working group was

3 chartered to do anything with test procedure. BEGIN

4 NOTE I'm just stating a fact. I'm not stating DOE is

5 against addendum three or -- I moon I understand your

6 position.

7 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Noted.

9 MS. MEYERS: Let's move on.

10 MR. BANTLE: Greg? You're on.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Let's talk about

12 something a little bit more interesting, hopefully.

13 So starting off with the life cycle cost and payback

14 period analysis, which is taking the results from the

15 engineering and the energy use as well as other

16 inputs, to provide the consumer life cycle cost and

17 payback periods of the various efficiency levels that

18 we're looking at.

19 Starting off, I'm summarizing the changes

20 to the analysis since the NOPR. And the first one

21 pertains to design paths. Because the engineering is

22 looking at different ways to achieve efficiency for
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

84

1 efficiency levels one and two, we're taking the

2 constant air volume design in efficiency levels one

3 and two and applying them at constant air volume

4 buildings. And we're taking the staged air volume

5 designs in efficiency levels one and two and applying

6 them to variable air volume buildings. So this is,

7 you know, maybe not so interesting here, but this is

8 an important point, I mean important thing that we're

9 doing in the analysis. After EL2, all efficiency

10 levels that have been analyzed in the engineering are

11 applied to all buildings were -- we have, whether

12 they're constant air volume or variable air volume.

13 The next one are about the installed costs

14 for putting in staged air volume or variable air

15 volume designs into constant air volume buildings.

16 And we're taking care of that through either a

17 thermostat change, and, if necessary, replacing the

18 diffusers in the building. And those diffusers need

19 to get replaced, you'll see later, for 15-ton

20 equipment at equipment four and five and it's quite

21 an expensive thing to do. BEGIN NOTE.

22 The other thing you heard a lot about
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

85

1 already is the conversion curb costs. We're

2 incorporating those starting at EL3. And, again, to

3 accommodate larger equipment to do that.

4 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, again.

5 I have a question about design path. So

6 explain to me what you're doing with the -- you're

7 taking a constant air volume system and if you change

8 it to VAV, explain to me what's going on there real

9 quick.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So efficiency levels four

11 and five you'll see for 15 tons, the EL4 requires

12 three stages of air flow in that air flow begins to

13 go below 60 percent. So at that point, the existing

14 diffusers don't provide enough throw, right, to

15 disperse the air into space so the assumption there

16 is that you have to go in there and replace those

17 diffusers. And for EL5, which is a variable air

18 volume system, the sanction thing, that you would

19 have to take those diffusers that were designed for a

20 conversional air volume system and replace them.

21 MR. STARR: And what are you replacing

22 them with?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

86

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: A variable air volume

2 diffuser that, you know, it's -- rather than putting

3 a VAV box in and redoing your ductwork, it's just

4 putting in this expensive VAV diffuser, which can be

5 controlled to vary the air volume of the -- I mean

6 the --

7 MR. STARR: Okay.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- the opening of the

9 diffuser.

10 MR. STARR: I don't know. I don't buy

11 that. I -- that doesn't sounds like a design

12 solution that I'm familiar with. Anyway. What's the

13 basis of that information, where you deem that from?

14 Is that Dick Lord saying that or someone else? BEGIN

15 NOTEnamexx.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, from past working

17 groups, I can't remember if it was in if informal, or

18 April 28th, if you bring air flow below 60 percent,

19 right, the diffuser isn't going to accommodate that.

20 MR. STARR: Yeah. It also corresponds

21 between the break in the EL levels. I personally

22 need, I need the labs or someone to go in and see if
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

87

1 that's really a design solution. You know, in theory

2 what you would have is dumping. What would happen,

3 the air comes out, it's super cold, you don't get

4 enough throw out of the diffusers. The first thing

5 could you do is look into diffuser. They have a

6 catalogue or it's now probably online and you see

7 what the throws are and see if that's actually

8 effective. I would think that it's really just a

9 question of whether the diffusers have adequate flow

10 at 40 percent flow and, you know, I -- the other

11 thing is, too, I wouldn't sure -- I wouldn't be so

12 sure that wouldn't be cheaper to replace, put in VAV

13 boxes, as opposed to replacing the diffusers.

14 Anyway, I don't know, I don't buy

15 replacing all the diffusers in a building as required

16 for EL3 and 4, when you go below 40 percent. I would

17 like, personally like some more either contact design

18 engineers or something that it's some basis of design

19 for that.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Again, I want to

21 emphasize it's EL4 and 5 where that's running.

22 MR. STARR: That's better.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

88

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not three.

2 MR. STARR: Okay.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: I should add here wire

4 looking for input here so thanks for the input on the

5 issue of the diffusers, Louis. But, also, input on

6 the conversion curb cost that we'll be presenting

7 later, as well as, you know, any input that we're --

8 from the manufacturers on shipments of, you know,

9 constant air volume and staged air volume and

10 variable air volume designs. Right now, the market

11 share of these designs is dictated by the market

12 share of the type of buildings that we have, so -- so

13 without anything else, that's what we'll continue to

14 go with.

15 Is this locked up?

16 MR. STARR: I would also say on the

17 conversion curb cost, one group that would probably

18 be in a great position to provide some of that

19 information, they've got a real good handle on the

20 price of sheet metal and generalized ideas of what

21 those conversion curves look like would help them.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought from yesterday, we
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

89

1 were gonna provide a major manufacturer that provides

2 that manufacturer, a major manufacturer that supplies

3 me to Navigant. So I don't think we're disclosing

4 it, we're gonna provide that information.

5 MR. STARR: We're all turnsxxx or just a

6 general average price?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: For what?

8 MR. STARR: What pricing are you going to

9 price all of the Terps --

10 MR. deLASKI: Wasn't Navigant gonna

11 contact --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. deLASKI: That was the idea.

14 MR. TERZIGNI: I will concur, curbs are

15 typically bought out, they're not typically

16 fabricated anymore. So I would concur with that

17 approach.

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef

19 Westphalen. I was going to say if it makes sense to

20 pull in LBNL in that discussion in order to get some

21 input on pricing for their part of the analysis,

22 certainly that's something we can consider if
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

90

1 everybody involved is comfortable with it.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. I'll move on to

3 the next thing that was changed, repair costs. The

4 NOPR analysis did not include compressor repair costs

5 into the life cycle repair analysis because it was

6 being used as a driver for the shipments nor the

7 repair versus replacement decision. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN

8 NOTE but one thing that we didn't realize at the time

9 is that, you know, under your sort of base-case

10 situation without standards, you're still gonna have

11 compressor repairs at some point during the lifetime

12 of the equipment. And so, again, for this analysis,

13 we've brought compressor repair into the life cycle

14 cost. And that repair cost is a function of

15 efficiency, so the higher the, you know, the more the

16 equipment, the more efficient the compressor, the

17 more the cost to repair them. We still have the

18 non-compressor repair costs in the analysis that we

19 have in the NOPR, so we're continuing to retain that

20 here. You'll see later on what those costs are, so

21 we will look for input on those and see if -- to tell

22 us whether or not those are reasonable. And because
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

91

1 we've included these repair costs into the life cycle

2 costs analysis, it effectively then changes our

3 equipment lifetime. So for the NOPR, that lifetime

4 was around 18 years for medium lifetime. Now it's

5 gone up to 21 years, as you'll see later. Again,

6 because some of those -- some of those units out

7 there are replacing their compressors, and, as a

8 result, they're going to be extending their life.

9 MR. STARR: This is Louis.

10 Did that change from the original analysis

11 that you had, you had put the compress owner and it

12 doubles the life of the equipment. Is that still a

13 bad assumption or has that changed? When you replace

14 the compressor, does that -- how does that change the

15 lifetime of the equipment?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, so what we were

17 doing in the NOPR, right, was that for 30-ton

18 units -- actually for all units, when we would

19 replace the compressor instead of replace the unit,

20 would it give an equal lifetime to it.

21 MR. STARR: Okay.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: So that will be -- we're
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

92

1 changing that assumption basically, so you'll be

2 seeing that next week when we present the shipments

3 analysis. But here, we're just capturing that some

4 units, under the base case without standards, and

5 also under the standards cases in the life cycle

6 costs analysis will repair their compressor.

7 MR. STARR: Right.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just the normal course of

9 the lifetime of that equipment. Lieu who so that's a

10 pretty big change, right? It will change your

11 shipments quite a bit if you assume double the

12 lifetime of your equipment by compressor change.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

14 MS. MEYERS: When you say compressor

15 repair, do you mean compressor replacement?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

17 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

19 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey, again.

20 A sort of the sense of order of magnitude

21 of the call it contractor labor plus markup versus

22 compressor costs when you're doing that compressor
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

93

1 replacement, is the compressor purchased, say, at the

2 contractor level 90 percent of the cost -- installed

3 costs or is 20 percent of the installed costs? Just

4 trying to get a sense because --

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I don't know.

6 MR. SACHS: Installation time doesn't

7 change.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're drawing our labor

9 from RS means, but drawing the compressor repair

10 material costs, the compressor itself from Grangerxxx

11 because the RS means was providing us kinds of what

12 we thought, you know, not Representative data.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: So again we're using the

15 RS means for labor, we're using Granger for the

16 actual compressor replacement cost. I don't know the

17 relative ratios of those. Do you remember? Al Al

18 labor to -- what fraction was the labor to the final

19 repair?

20 Maybe we can tell you that later.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: It should be about 50-50.

22 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's good enough
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

94

1 for me. BEGIN NOTE Alison END NOTE.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the last thing on this

3 list was -- is what I would call the base case

4 efficiency distribution, that is the distribution of

5 efficiencies without standards. And again, we

6 haven't gotten any input yet from ASHRAExxxAHRHI on

7 shipments here to inform us here. One thing we have

8 done is we have a different distribution for constant

9 air volume buildings as variable air volume

10 buildings. And one of the things you'll see later is

11 that for a variable air volume building, because the

12 baseline design is a constant air volume design, we

13 don't put that design into a variable air volume

14 building so we start out effectively with a baseline

15 design for variable -- variable air volume buildings

16 as EL1.

17 So, again, you'll see that later. But

18 again, we're looking for input. That input with the

19 shipments data that -- or market share data from the

20 industry but I don't know if you have any idea when

21 that might be forthcoming or if it's going to be

22 forthcoming.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

95

1 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. Should have something

2 by the end of this week, so it should be ready for

3 our next meeting.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think a lot of you have

5 probably seen this boilerplate slide and how we

6 conduct the analysis, but, as Katie was alluding to

7 earlier, we take this generalized building sample

8 from the energy use analysis, which consists of 1600

9 records, and that serves as the basis for doing our

10 Monte Carlo simulation. So we're running the Monte

11 Carlo simulation ten thousand times and draw from

12 that generalized building sample based upon its

13 Representativeness or weight. And then we -- for

14 other inputs into the life cycle cost calculation

15 drop probability calculations. So we're performing

16 this life cycle cost and payback solution 10,000

17 times, again, drawing from the generalized building

18 sample as well as picking probability from these

19 problems BEGIN NOTE that characterize things like

20 lifetime, discount rates and so forth. BEGIN NOTE

21 BEGIN NOTE.

22 Again, I think a lot of you are familiar
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

96

1 with -- I hope that process, so, again, just wanted

2 to restate it here. Again, this just restates the

3 fact what I just told you that we start with this

4 consumer sample, which is the generalized building

5 sample which serves as the basis for the analysis in

6 coming up with the distribution of results.

7 So hopefully this slide illustrates

8 exactly how we're moving the equipment designs from

9 the engineering into to capture conversion curves,

10 diffuser replacement and so forth. So on the

11 furthest left column is the efficiency level.

12 The next column is the type of equipment

13 design, whether it's a constant air volume or a

14 staged air volume and this is for seven and a half

15 ton. And you can see that, you know, based upon the

16 equipment design and its level what -- what -- what

17 type of equipment goes into the CA -- the constant

18 air volume building and the variable air volume

19 build, which are columns three and four. So that

20 equipment design of the baseline will go into a

21 constant air volume building but it will not go into

22 a variable air volume building. At efficiency level
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

97

1 one, we have a RAV and a VAC, the VAC design goes

2 into the CAV building but the staged design building

3 goes into the VAC building, BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE and

4 the same thing at efficiency level two. From

5 efficiencies levels 2.5 through 5, every -- whether

6 it's a CAV building or a VAV building, it gets that

7 same equipment design applied to it.

8 MR. STARR: So this is Louis again. So

9 this is the typical one and then you do -- is there

10 another one for dis -- in other words some that have

11 curves and some that don't?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So I'm going to

13 get those in the next set of columns for that one. I

14 want to emphasize, our building sample, our

15 generalized building sample does consist of a set of

16 buildings that are constant air volume buildings and

17 a set of buildings that are variable air volume. The

18 constant represent a much larger fraction of those

19 buildings by weight by Representativeness. BEGIN

20 NOTE.

21 So on the conversion curb, you see that

22 you don't apply a conversion curb until you get to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

98

1 Efficiency Level 3. And there, it's applied whether

2 or not you have a constant air volume building or a

3 VAV building.

4 On the diffuser replacement, we don't have

5 any of that for seven and a half tons because none of

6 the units have a staged air flow that gets below 67

7 percent. And then thermostat just shows you what

8 sort of thermostat you need based upon the type of

9 equipment design you have, and so that just dictates

10 the type of, again, cost of the they were state

11 that's going to go along with that unit.

12 MR. STARR: This is Louis again.

13 One thing I would just point out with did

14 you have diffusers in general when you stick them

15 into a VAV system, typical turndown for a 30 air box

16 is 30 percent of air flow. So the diffusers are

17 typically set up to turn down 30 percent. So I'm

18 trying to think if they have different diffusers or

19 constant air volume or not, BEGIN NOTE I think

20 generally that's how do you the design is you're at a

21 given -- so you come from the air handling unit, you

22 go down to a VAV box and then you have low pressure
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

99

1 ductwork that will have like four or five diffusers

2 on it. When you turn those boxes typically go

3 anywhere from a hundred percent when it's hard day or

4 hard load down to 30 percent in order to provide

5 ventilation air and that's -- so that flow will go

6 down to 30 percent of that.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you saying the

8 diffuser can accommodate a VAV design?

9 MR. STARR: That's my take take is that it

10 should. Keep in mind that was design as ten years

11 ago but I don't think V VAC has changed that much.

12 This should be something to my mind you shouldn't be

13 changing the diffusers, though.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you'll see in the

15 next slide here, it becomes important for EL4 and 5,

16 right? But -- so this is the slide for 15 tons.

17 It's, again, the same exact sort of thing, how the

18 equipment design the mapped for VCAV and VAV

19 buildings and what that means if you have to do the

20 conversion curb, if you have to include a conversion

21 curb and whether or not you have to replace the

22 diffusers, again, and what type of thermostat you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

100

1 have. And, again, for EL4 and 5 for 15 tons because

2 that saves air flow gets below 50 percent, the

3 assumption was that in a constant air volume

4 building, you would need to replace those diffusers

5 and include the sensors that would be necessary to be

6 able to vary that air flow with that variable air

7 volume unit.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Quick question. Paul Dpppel.

9 Is there a big cost between the VA --

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: You will see that. It's

11 not much. It's like a maximum a hundred box, I

12 believe, between a one-stage versus one that is

13 suitable for the air volume system.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell.

15 That is referring to controlled cost,

16 controlled discussion we had yet on page 42 I think

17 the three different levels of control, I assume?

18 BEGIN NOTE.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: What was on slide 42?

20 MR. WHITWELL: 42 where controls vary by

21 size and complexity. So you describe --

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, yeah.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

101

1 MR. WHITWELL: Right?

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I think some of the

3 controls that they're talking about are incorporated

4 into the unit already, right. These are separate

5 from this, right? So --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So this is for the

7 building control, as opposed to --

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: All it is is a

9 thermostat. That's simply all it is. So, for

10 example, the VAV design needs a direct digital

11 controller within it. It's captured within that

12 cost.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm seeing the nods from

15 James, so --

16 I hope this helps just, you know, show how

17 we're mapping the equipment design into the buildings

18 and what that means for the curb and whatnot. You

19 might argue against some of these things, but at

20 least you know how we did it. You're going to get

21 the installed costs. That's the equipment cost plus

22 the installation cost. On the equipment price side,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

102

1 what we're doing is taking that manufacturer

2 production cost that we're getting from the

3 engineering analysis and marking it up with those

4 same markups that we have from the NOPR, the NOPR

5 analysis, into a price that the customer has to pay.

6 And so you see the resulting equipment prices right

7 there on those lines for both seven and a half tons

8 and 15 tons. And for the two -- two types of paths

9 here, the staged air volume and the constant air

10 volume.

11 So from all the way from baseline of 6,000

12 to $1010 for EL5 on seven and a half tons, 12 and a

13 half thousand to almost 20,000 for 15 ton. The other

14 thing I would point out here is that, you know, we,

15 in some of our economic analyses, we try to forecast

16 the price and we do that by looking at purchase price

17 index data from the census, and in this case, there

18 wasn't a distinctive trend, so we did not have a --

19 any -- any declining prices going out to the future,

20 we had constant real prices. We were analyzing

21 things over our analysis period.

22 MS. MEYERS: So just to recap on this
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

103

1 slide, BEGIN NOTE Karen from Rheem. END NOTE

2 efficiency level from 7.5 ton, efficiency level is

3 12.9. You're saying the installed cost is 6850 BEGIN

4 NOTE and the installed cost at efficiency level 5 at

5 21.5 IEER is 10,000?

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. And this is just

7 the equipment price side. I just want to emphasize

8 that.

9 The next slide gets after the installation

10 cost. And so you have to combine those two together

11 to get the total installed cost.

12 MR. THARP: This, that table is.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: This one's for the

14 equipment price. And this next slide will be for the

15 installation cost. Do you see how that varies with

16 efficiency, as well? That's a function of the

17 equipment weight and just, you know tax the -- that

18 ratio and increase in equipment rate to project out

19 the baseline installation cost.

20 MR. deLASKI: Will you just say that

21 again, Greg, because the headings on these two slides

22 are confusing to me.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

104

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. The first one that

2 says "total installed cost one" speaks to the

3 equipment price. And the next slide "total installed

4 cost two" speaks to the installation cost.

5 MR. deLASKI: And to get the total

6 installed cost, would you add those two slides?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Exactly.

8 MR. THARP: So the conversion curbs are in

9 this portion there?

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, conversion curbs are

11 not in here. You'll see what the next slides -- so

12 this does not include diffuser replacement, it does

13 not include the thermostat, it does not include the

14 conversion curb, if one is necessary. This is simply

15 the cost of installing the unit, right, without those

16 other considerations. And, again, what we did there

17 is we had the cost go up for installation as a

18 function of equipment rate -- weight. And we bought

19 the equipment rates from the engineering analysis.

20 MR. STARR: So this is Lewis with the --

21 so just looking at your seven and half ton, your

22 whatever zero, 2750 and go up to level five, 4361.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

105

1 So what literally, if I was talking to a contractor

2 and gave me these two prices and I'm asking him why

3 is this cost one and half times more for a ton, what

4 would you tell him? Because it's heavier. Twice the

5 size? Because it's all the difference.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Possibly.

7 MR. STARR: What's the weight difference

8 between those two, roughly? Is it one and a half

9 times more between a zero.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I would have to go back to

11 whatever he had in the engineering analysis. A Trane

12 is seven and a half thousand pounds. If you're

13 talking about helicopter lift, it will be different.

14 MR. STARR: Really, a crane lift.

15 MR. THARP: TDS is twice as much. Level

16 one yield one a small is 786 pounds. At a large 15

17 ton is 1463 pounds. A 30-ton is 3212.

18 MR. STARR: Essentially, I'll go check.

19 It won't be hard. When I get home, I'll call up a

20 train operator and ask him how much it is to lift

21 each weight. I don't think it will be $1500 more.

22 That's what we're talking about is lifting the train
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

106

1 from the ground.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Wait. Installation costs,

3 there is now a more sophisticated controller on,

4 there you have more sophisticated --

5 MR. STARR: In the seven -- is that?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You went up in

7 controls. You had the higher level controls, a

8 microprocessor controls. So you have more time doing

9 that, you have more time installing, programming it,

10 probably a hire skill level technician to even do it.

11 MR. STARR: So he has to put in a

12 different thermostat?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. You had a low-level

14 thermostat in your first -- in your lower ones. You

15 went to -- in the engineering analysis, they went to

16 the higher cost stuff, which they should. It will be

17 all microprocessor-based.

18 MR. STARR: But we're not talking about

19 equipment, right? You still have to run a wire from

20 the roof down to -- down to the thermostat.

21 That's the installation cost. It's not the box that

22 you're connecting up with it. The installation cost
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

107

1 doesn't --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the electrician.

3 Now you're talking about control wiring.

4 MR. STARR: Control wiring will be local.

5 It won't be an electrician pulling that wire. I used

6 to work at Trane Controls.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand. When you're

8 talking about -- I understand. And Trane Controls

9 will charge way more than the average dealer out

10 there to pull that stuff because the skill level that

11 I have.

12 MR. STARR: It was low voltage, not an

13 electrician.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: What we're getting at, the

15 average HV/AC who does not have an electrician on

16 staff and has a low-level person will probably not do

17 that anymore. You're going to have to go up in

18 change.

19 MR. STARR: I'm telling you, the control

20 wire will be the same, whether it is a fancy

21 thermostat or not. It will be the same guy pulling

22 that.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

108

1 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree.

2 MR. STARR: This is your number. Why

3 don't you tell me what the difference is?

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry, this is -- no,

5 I mean, we're doing the same thing that we did in the

6 NOPR analysis, which is -- which is a scale of

7 equipment with weight. We didn't receive any adverse

8 comment.

9 MR. STARR: You got them now.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, so we got -- we just

11 went with the same method here, right. And, again,

12 you know, I'm not necessarily here to defend it.

13 MR. STARR: Okay.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is what we did and

15 certainly taking input on whether or not it's the

16 appropriate thing to do.

17 MR. STARR: Well, to me, I'm looking at

18 this and all I really see is potentially the

19 difference in the cost of the crane. In reality,

20 when you order a crane up, yes, they do sends out

21 different sizes, but a lot of times it's gonna be

22 able to handle the amount of weight difference in the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

109

1 two different air handlers. There's a lot of things

2 going in. So I would be very is you priced really to

3 have a higher priced crane based on a higher

4 efficiency piece of equipment.

5 I guess that would be one thing you can

6 collect is just literally check to see what the cost

7 for a crane difference is. The rest of it, to my

8 mind, I don't really -- I mean unless you're seeing

9 something different than I -- I don't see anything

10 other than the crane price in there that's gonna be

11 different, unless you see something now.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I know we did an analysis

13 that agreed with your weighting, but I don't have it

14 out.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: I can't hear down here.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I did not file negative

17 comments, I agreed with the way that they did it

18 because we did an analysis internally based on

19 Trane -- Trane contracting services, and we agreed

20 with how they were using the weight for the amounts

21 of the difference. So I can't -- I don't have that

22 here. I don't know that I'm going to put it in a
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

110

1 public document yet. So I can't say unequivocally

2 what was in there, but we agreed to those increases

3 in cost. And we are a contracting company, and so

4 versus most of these manufacturers in this room

5 aren't.

6 MR. STARR: What I would say is LBNL can

7 do this. Crane companies are in the phone book or

8 now on the internet.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not just crane. Now if

10 you're talking about a heavier weight, you might have

11 to have two people out, there you might have to have

12 three. You know, safety, tie-downs, all those things

13 that have to happen now.

14 MR. deLASKI: So it sounds like -- this is

15 Andrew.

16 It may or may not be that they modeled all

17 those things that you looked at it and they looked

18 reasonable to you.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: It looked reasonable.

20 MR. deLASKI: It might not be the same

21 way. They certainly didn't do it the same way

22 because you're a contractor. You looked at it, you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

111

1 thought they were reasonable. You're wondering

2 whether they are reasonable.

3 MR. STARR: You know, one and a half times

4 the price a contractor told me, you know, if I've got

5 something that is 10,000 pounds and now it is 12,000

6 and told you that it is going to cost you -- or 1100,

7 it is going to cost one and half times the price,

8 that just doesn't jibe.

9 MR. SACHS: Louis -- this Harvey --

10 MR. STARR: But what I will do, I will go

11 back to Portland and get some prices for you, and

12 when I come back the next meeting, I will tell you.

13 Xxxeven rigging cost? Potentially. If you're using

14 two people.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: You better get it for New

16 York. You better get it for the most expensive

17 markets in the country.

18 MR. STARR: We'll use median.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just getting Portland, my

20 point is Portland not in the median.

21 MR. STARR: But keep in mind, they are

22 lifting these up on stores in the suburbs, they're
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

112

1 not lifting them on 70-story buildings, typically.

2 BEGIN NOTE I'll look into the pricing, but I don't

3 know. I have a lot of heartburn with those numbers.

4 Yes, I will check in on it and we'll see.

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

6 And, Louis, the only sanity check I'd

7 offer is any tim I've looked for premium equipment,

8 the install cost went up square to the "premiumness."

9 It has nothing to do with weight but with avarice.

10 I'm sorry, "profit margin."

11 MR. STARR: In other words, that's more of

12 the price of the equipment, rather than the

13 installation.

14 MR. SACHS: I stand by what I said on the

15 installation cost.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to move on,

17 then.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, this is Bob

19 Whitwell.

20 Can we back up to the equipment costs?

21 So if I look at this, so I'm seeing that

22 you have the same equipment costs for this staged air
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

113

1 volume versus the constant air volume. And I wonder

2 about.

3 That I'm not quite sure what's different there but in

4 one case, we are going to be add ago VHD for the

5 staged air volume, it's going to add some cost.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, when I say staged

7 air volume, most of where these casings were seven

8 and a half tons, xxxit was just two stages of air

9 flow and two stages of compressor. We are not

10 talking about VFD's.

11 MR. WHITWELL: No, but VFD's are often

12 used to get the two speeds in the fan on these

13 integral horsepower motors.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I'm looking at

15 Detlef's comment on that.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, one thing that

17 occurs to me is, I don't think we had an EL0 or SAV

18 or am I wrong?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: That sounds right. It all

20 should be dashed out, right?

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

22 That should be dashed out. The SAV for zero singe,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

114

1 for SAV, it should be -- should not be there. So --

2 and -- and --

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Nor for the dual.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're right, neither nor

5 the dual, right.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So we strike?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, strike the first

8 two cells for the staged air volume row for seven and

9 half tons.

10 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem.

11 If we go to EL1, you're saying the total

12 equipment price difference between the seven and a

13 half ton cost air volume and staged air volume is

14 $52? I think we might need to do a little reality

15 check on that. It is lower on EL2 for a staged air

16 versus a constant air.

17 MR. THARP: Doesn't make sense, but that

18 goes back to the models and what was used in the

19 models.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: And constant air volume,

21 I'm assuming there's more of, you know, increasing

22 the efficiency of the compressor.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

115

1 MR. WHITWELL: There's more coil, more air

2 volume.

3 MR. ROSENQUISDT: You're improving on part

4 load.

5 MR. THARP: Again, that goes back to

6 manufacture choice and how to achieve a certain IEER

7 level.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Just to be clear on these

9 costs, you know, as James was discussing yesterday,

10 we didn't base those costs on the specific models

11 used to get the Representative energy performance of

12 the units. That was based on the averaging that he

13 was explaining. So it was intended to represent the

14 average of how the various manufacturers, the

15 industry, gets to a level use ago CAV path and then

16 using an SAV path.

17 MS. MEYERS: So is this equipment cost or

18 equipment price?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is equipment price.

20 What you saw yesterday is price.

21 MS. MEYERS: So I guess my problem is a

22 staged unit would be cheaper. It is never gonna cost
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

116

1 less than a constant air because despite the cost, it

2 is never -- the price is never gonna be less. I

3 would find that very hard to believe because sit a

4 feature.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef.

6 The analysis, DOE analysis of evaluating,

7 setting the standard at that level, whether or not

8 it's a feature, it becomes a design choice in the

9 analysis.

10 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, with

11 Lennox.

12 You're basing your cost on your

13 manufacturing cost plus your markup.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. The

15 numbers that we see in these charts that Greg is

16 showing.

17 MR. WINNINGHAM: You're doing a cost

18 buildup and putting your margin markup on top of that

19 so --

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: That's why --

22 MR. AMRANE: One question for Greg or for
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

117

1 you, are you assuming the same markup whether SAV or

2 CAV?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: When you get to those

4 efficiency levels, same markups.

5 MR. AMRANE: I think Karen is saying that

6 is probably not the case.

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Right. In the real

8 world, that's probably not the case, but I understand

9 what you've done.

10 MR. THARP: Another question on equipment

11 cost. As you go higher in EL levels, the values are

12 assuming entire -- that market volume stays the same,

13 is that correct?

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: We haven't gotten into

15 shipments but I'm assuming we're going to be talking

16 about a rollup type of analysis where, you know,

17 everything that was at a lower level will then be

18 volume at that higher level.

19 MR. THARP: So there's really, there's not

20 a -- it doesn't -- the equipment cost does not

21 include higher prices that a manufacturer may be

22 charged for the same component if industry volume is
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

118

1 decreased. Does that make sense?

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is correct, yes.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, that -- and actually

5 for this analysis, for the NOPR we had what we call

6 the consumer choice on efficient civil but actually

7 what it demonstrated is this is a very first-cost

8 driven product so there is not much gain in

9 efficiency over time. I mean, minute gain in

10 efficiency over time, you know, people are going to

11 keep on continuing -- in other words, people are

12 going to keep on selecting the baseline level piece

13 of equipment. That's what our shipments analysis

14 concluded. So -- but the other -- other part of that

15 is in the NOPR, we have huge shipments drop. One one

16 correct.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the costs that you're

18 seeing are the costs in the life cycle cost, don't

19 necessarily reflect that huge drop. It more or less

20 assumes that you have -- you're shifting, you know,

21 your volumes of production to that higher efficiency

22 level. So --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

119

1 MR. THARP: So that is something we -- I

2 think we should discuss because if we're producing 25

3 to 50 percent less product, our cost per unit

4 actually goes up for the same because they're -- our

5 suppliers, because they're selling less components,

6 they're going to charge us more. We have less

7 efficiencies in our factories, so those are issues

8 that need to be discussed at some point in time. I

9 think they need -- personal opinion is I think they

10 should be included in the analysis, considered.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

12 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, the designs

13 here, these designs that are used here, these are not

14 the designs we saw before that were based on actual

15 products? These are designs that are based on your

16 model, is that right, or are these --

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are based on

18 actual designs, not the ones listed because the

19 specific ones listed were used for the energy part of

20 the engineering. These are based on all the models

21 for which there's sufficient information givenxxx to

22 estimate the cost. And by sufficient information, I
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

120

1 mean some indication of how large the coil sizes are,

2 how many compressors there are, what kind of fan

3 powers there are BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. So for the

4 seven and a half ton, which is showing only as Karen

5 pointed out $52 difference between SAV and CAV, the

6 CAV has more coil, I guess --

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.

8 MR. WHITWELL: And the SAV has less coil

9 but it's got a VFD or something to get the two stages

10 and that is all in this cost analysis. BEGIN NOTE

11 BEGIN NOTE.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. In that would be

13 what the difference would be between, you know, we've

14 heard in some of these discussions that, yeah, a

15 drive is, you know, an inexpensive way to achieve

16 efficiency.

17 MR. WHITWELL: It's not $52.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not $52 inexpensive.

19 It is a way to get it but it's not -- versus the

20 two-step motors, which are pretty expensive because

21 their not sold in any volume.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's a lower-cost
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

121

1 way to do it than by other alternatives. But still,

2 it adds some substantial cost.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if you're saying

4 it's a lower cost way than other alternatives.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Other alternative ways to

6 get the staged air volume.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: However, you know, we --

9 our analysis didn't show that it was a less expensive

10 way to get those efficiency levels, it showed that,

11 you know, maybe it wasn't as expensive as, you know,

12 if you're selling it as, you know, a feature, a

13 value-priced item currently then --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, sure, when you're

15 differentiating, you're gonna have it more expensive.

16 But there is more we you cannot go out and buy a

17 drive for $50.

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's not what this --

19 where it hit that's not what this is saying because

20 there is more coil.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, with

22 Lennox.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

122

1 To be specific to the model, the CAV has

2 29.9 square feet. The SAV has 29.5. BEGIN NOTE END

3 NOTE I'm not sure that all washes but that's --

4 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers look very

5 similar.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we didn't know what

7 we were gonna find, you know, based on the initial

8 feedback we thought that maybe the variable drive

9 approach would be less expensive. It didn't find up

10 that way. If you look at the curbs, they're fairly

11 close.

12 MR. WINNINGHAM: The question at EL2,

13 though, becomes more of a question, in my mind,

14 because the SAV system has a larger out door coil --

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Keep in mind that's just

16 one unit at that level and that the costs are based

17 on looking at a range of those levels.

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay.

19 MR. WHITWELL: I think manufacturers would

20 probably not take that approach, given that if those

21 costs are actually -- well, most manufacturers would

22 go with the SAV because it also would then allow them
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

123

1 to comply with building codes.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Actually that's one thing

3 we discussed is whether or not to continue to carry

4 forward a CAV design and a staged air volume design.

5 I guess I was a proponent of since we have CAV

6 buildings and VAB buildings in the analysis, we

7 should continue to put a CAV design into a CAV

8 building and a staged air design in a variable volume

9 building.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Or a staged air volume and

11 constant air volume building.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's the thing. Detlef

13 said -- I said if they have a constant air volume

14 building we will stick with a constant air volume

15 unit. But we can certainly change that approach.

16 BEGIN NOTE check all this. BEGIN NOTE.

17 MR. WHITWELL: I'll think about that.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's important

20 that we get these things -- I was hoping today,

21 every -- this is -- I was talking to Javier, it's for

22 later. But at the end of today, we need a path
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

124

1 forward, hard stop.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Would it help that when

3 we're done with this, depending on the time, but if

4 we have a little bit longer lunch or a little bit of

5 a break to allow folks to make any calls or do

6 whatever they need to do so when we come back, we can

7 try to finalize some of these numbers?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think we'll

9 finalize the numbers but I think we'll finalize, like

10 for this, the groups will say use VAV, use CAV. I

11 mean whatever these particular issues are, it's great

12 that we're asking questions and trying to understand

13 it. But, you know, we need to just say this is the

14 way we're going.

15 MR. STARR: I think I can probably help

16 object your CAV or VAV. Actually Dick and I, we

17 didn't talk about it, so when it goes, when you take

18 your unit out and you put it on a building and you've

19 got a constant air volume system and go to replace it

20 with a new unit, they make you bring it up -- they

21 make you put an economizer on it. But what they

22 probably wouldn't make do you is go back and put a
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

125

1 bunch of VAV boxes in order to complaining the VAV

2 system. So your constant air volume to be replaced

3 by a constant air volume is probably the assumption I

4 would think.

5 MR. WHITWELL: But remember, the SAV is

6 going only about 66 percent.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: The way this analysis is

8 going, you can put a staged air volume design because

9 it doesn't go below a 67 percent air flow into that

10 constant air flow building. The assumption I was

11 basically making is given the choice, a customer

12 would stick with a constant air volume equipment

13 design if they have a constant air volume building.

14 And --

15 MR. STARR: That's probably a good

16 assumption. They will want to save money. They'll

17 want the cheapest thing possible of the time. Unless

18 they're first cost driven. So whatever they can do

19 to spend less money is what they will probably do.

20 MR. SACHS: Are what you're saying is they

21 ain't gonna put lipstick on a pig.

22 MR. STARR: Well, it would be a good
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

126

1 design.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Lipstick on a pig would be

3 good?

4 MR. STARR: It also depends on which place

5 you're in. If you're in more closer to the bigger

6 cities, that'll make you actually -- California will

7 probably make you --

8 MR. HUNT: Yes, we will.

9 MR. STARR: Yeah, California will make you

10 go to the VAV system.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move to

12 the conversion curb in thermostats now.

13 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charles. If you

14 go back to slide 73 -- can you hear me still?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: There's some kind of

16 feedback, Charlie.

17 MR. SACHS: We heard you ten times,

18 Charlie?

19 MR. McCRUDDEN: Is it working now?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.

21 MR. McCRUDDEN: Installation costs

22 representing labor through that is fixed but the only
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

127

1 thing that has a variable installation cost based on

2 the weight?

3 MR. SACHS: Charlie, this is Harvey.

4 I'm trying to interpret it. I understood

5 that equipment rate -- weight is used as a proxy for

6 all of the extra things except the conversion curb

7 that are involved in the higher efficiency equipment.

8 It's -- it's a approximately for weight, rather than

9 anything else.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, that's correct.

11 Thank you, Harvey, that's exactly it.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And, Charlie, this is Jill.

13 When it came to the NOPR and we looked at these

14 numbers, I can tell you from Trane contracting

15 perspective, which is only one, I realize, we did add

16 up those numbers and felt that they were

17 Representative of the changes that happened, whether

18 you use it by weight or whatever, they were coming

19 within the same, the same area. But your group could

20 certainly go and do that a lot broader than just --

21 just my company, so --

22 MR. McCRUDDEN: That's something I might
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

128

1 look at. I'm getting an odd feedback on my end. I

2 think we'll have something to that next week.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Should I continue, even

4 though he lost two people? This is the conversion

5 and the stat costs. We talked to people who said the

6 conversion curb cost was in the range of a thousand

7 to $2,000. We went ahead with a thousand dollars

8 because of the fact that we're already increasing the

9 install -- let's call it the normal installation cost

10 with equipment weight. So starting at efficiency

11 levels three -- efficiency level three, we are adding

12 this a thousand dollars per unit to accommodate a

13 conversion curb.

14 On the thermostat, you can see that we're

15 just -- we went to a web site, got a price for -- for

16 thermostats, right, and these are the prices for

17 different types of staged or -- or variable-speed

18 equipment. Again, our assumption here is that the

19 installation associated with that thermostat would

20 not change based upon the type of thermostat you're

21 putting in. So, again, you can see that at the

22 extreme level, $180 to $310. That's only a $130
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

129

1 difference.

2 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob, from Carrier.

3 So debt let when you talked to our conversion curb

4 supplier, I don't know whether you want to have Greg

5 join or not but I think you need to talk with him as

6 far as the cost, as well. Because we're seeing

7 significantly higher costs when you get up to 60 ton.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right? I mean the thousand

10 to two thousand applies to the low end, but then as

11 you get bigger, the cost goes up substantially.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So even that 30 ton

13 doesn't -- it's not a now sand. That doesn't even

14 come close to what the cost of it is.

15 MR. STARR: Probably look at the weight of

16 equipment sales. In other words, if they're selling

17 one percent at the 60 tons, as opposed to -- you

18 know, you have to do it on a shipment basis, the

19 costs, right, as well. So, in other words, if

20 they're selling primarily 20-ton curbs, what's the

21 price of that? If they're selling how many 30

22 percent tons -- or 30 tons they're using, use that
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

130

1 weight to get your price for your curb, real curb,

2 which I guess you'll have it -- sounds like from the

3 HR value, you will have pins seven and a half --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Small, large, very large.

5 Lieu okay.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: The DOE definition.

7 MR. STARR: Sewn that group you don't know

8 how many --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Nope.

10 MR. STARR: The same problem yesterday.

11 You don't know how many are 20 tons, how many are 30

12 tons. It's too granular.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's getting too granular.

14 MR. STARR: How about -- half? Well,

15 they're not all 60 tons, right? Where it hit they're

16 not all 60.

17 MR. STARR: Well, anyway, something for

18 you to think about.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: And again this, is an

20 easy thing to modify because this doesn't -- this

21 goes into the life cycle cost spreadsheet, it's just

22 one input.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

131

1 If I can talk to Detlef' contact, then

2 maybe we can really resolve it.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Let me give you one, too.

4 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg.

5 Can you hear me?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, Meg.

7 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Just a question. I'm

8 sorry, if I missed. Are you applying the conversion

9 curb cost to all replacements of proposition level

10 two --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

12 MS. WALTNER: -- or just a percentage?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, all.

14 MR. STARR: But I thought we talked about

15 that a little bit yesterday on the other analysis

16 that that would be changed a little bit. Not

17 necessary less all replacement units needed a

18 conversion curb.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I guess that's the

20 question, right, what level does -- is a conversion

21 curb required, right? Right now we're assuming

22 efficiency level three and Detlef or James presented
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

132

1 a slide yesterday showing, you know, curb -- curb

2 size is a function of -- was that it? Curb size is a

3 function of IEER level. It did provide information

4 for individual manufacturers, but should I put that

5 screen up again?

6 MR. WHITWELL: There's no easy answer to

7 it, right. So what we talked about yesterday was

8 looking at some more capacity size, right, to see if

9 we could come up with some reasonable assumption that

10 we can all agree on.

11 MR. STARR: Yeah. I'd be fine with that.

12 And so that -- I guess it's really the same stuff

13 that they were working on yesterday applies to the

14 same stuff today, correct, understanding what that

15 percentage is of -- of the EL3 levels that go on

16 existing buildings, what percentage of those don't

17 get curbs and which percentage do get curbs, right?

18 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey and I'm

19 trying to think like a designer. It's not an area

20 where I've experienced. But at some point for some

21 buildings, particularly where I'm doing other

22 retrofits or stuff like that at the same time, the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

133

1 question comes up, given the existing oversize, am I

2 better off going to an E -- an EL2 at the same

3 capacity or going up to an EL3 and downsizing so I

4 don't need to have a conversion curb. I think the

5 argument, at least conceptually, can be made that

6 between the -- what we used to call in telecom

7 breakage things, the inherent oversizing and these

8 broader retrofit questions that some decrement so

9 that not all the EL3's, maybe ten percent of them are

10 not going to require curb cuts, probably be a lower

11 fraction as you go up from EL3. I think there would

12 be a comfort factor in not assuming a hundred

13 percent.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I agree, it's not a

15 hundred percent. No question.

16 MR. SACHS: It's symbolic, though.

17 MR. WHITWELL: It's probably 99.

18 MR. SACHS: Now it's just the oldest

19 profession, we're arguing about the price.

20 MR. STARR: I'm wondering does the AEO

21 have something in terms of remodels? It's basically

22 when you're doing a number of units, a larger square
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

134

1 footage that then you may be also redoing your roof

2 cuts and can actually size for the current unit.

3 MR. WHITWELL: We can maybe settle on

4 something. I mean there's probably -- there may be

5 data out there, but I don't know that we have time to

6 sort through and get to it. I think we got to kind

7 of just pick a number. It's not 99, either.

8 MR. STARR: I was just hoping AEO had. I

9 don't know what they have.

10 MR. SACHS: No.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe it's 75 percent of

12 the replacements, I don't know.

13 MR. STARR: Sold.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to move on.

15 So this is the diffuser replacement costs

16 slide. Again, as you saw earlier, what we're

17 thinking it's necessary for is the EL's 4 and 5, When

18 you're putting those designs into a constant air

19 volume building. And it's -- it's based, this cost,

20 write is pretty extreme or seems extreme to me. It

21 is based on data from Taylor Engineering, an outfit

22 in San Francisco, and also getting labor costs from
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

135

1 RS means. Again, we're using this device called is a

2 self-powered VAV diffuser. Again, it's supposed to

3 be a cheaper option to putting in a VAV box. By the

4 way, each diffuser costs between 200 and $250 more

5 than a conventional diffuser. And then also

6 temperature sensors, in order to control that

7 diffuser, are also required and sophistication of

8 those sensors depends upon whether or not you have

9 direct digital control in the unit. So you know, the

10 level of detail here shows that we're just -- you

11 know, we didn't necessarily know exactly what type of

12 diffuser we're talking about here, in terms of

13 whether it's -- what size or its perforated or

14 rectangular or circular. But the bottom line is when

15 you -- as you get to the diffuser cost per ton --

16 actually these are -- those are those last columns.

17 Forget about the SQ, that's a typo. But you see

18 there that the average price for a VAV diffuser is

19 $71 per ton, a thousand dollars per ton, if you

20 include the temperature sensor and then the more

21 sophisticated one for a DVC system, goes up to 2600

22 per ton.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

136

1 MR. STARR: This is Louis, again.

2 Are these installed costs?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

4 MR. STARR: I am looking at 1818. You've

5 got 1207. That's roughly 400 bucks for a diffuser

6 installed, which might be a little bit high but it's

7 not too bad. So that is installed cost?

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. And their solution,

9 it sounds like a -- Taylor engineering is, this

10 their -- was that kinds of their solution for

11 retrofitting a solution going back, putting this

12 diffuser?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: They called it a

14 lost-cost option.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is what he presented to

16 the California Energy Commission. This is all he did

17 to do that.

18 MR. STARR: So this is what you have to do

19 in California when you go from a CAV system to a VAV?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah because it's now the

21 law.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: The way I read it, it's
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

137

1 an option, it's a low-cost option. What they do

2 actually in the field is a whole other thing, right?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So --

5 MR. STARR: Well, I would say, I can tell

6 you other places in the country, they just go ahead

7 and switch out, not doing anything to the diffuser,

8 they just change out the unit. Whatever happened,

9 happened. But I understand, your analysis, you

10 really designed a solution that actually works, so --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Maybe you can chew on

12 these costs. Right now, as it stands, the they only

13 apply for efficiency levels four and 5 when you put

14 those designs into a constant air volume building.

15 That's where they're applied.

16 So I'm going do move -- shall I move on or

17 do you -- this is talking about the effective energy

18 prices that we use and we didn't do any updates to

19 this energy price analysis since the NOPR. You know,

20 it's a price that's derived from looking at energy

21 built information from EEI, is that our information

22 here or are these the tariff?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

138

1 MS. COUGHLIN: Tariffs.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Tariff. We collected

3 tariffs from 90 utilities, over 200 tariffs and

4 analyzed those tariffs to get an effective marginal

5 price that's derived from both energy charges and

6 demand charges. So you can -- you can see those

7 values there. We have a marginal demand price,

8 dollar for KW and a marginal unusual user consumption

9 price, which is cents per kilowatt hour. Again,

10 these haven't varied at all since what we did for the

11 NOPR, but you can see here how they vary by region.

12 MR. STARR: I was also going to say, when

13 I saw your notes back here, what you did for your --

14 this is to correct something earlier. On your

15 pricing for your installation cost of equipment, you

16 used RS means is what you used, so it wasn't just

17 cost. Whatever is in RS means is attributing the

18 cost and they must be doing it by the size of

19 equipment is what it's doing.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Which slide are you

21 using?

22 MR. STARR: It was the one with
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

139

1 installation cost and I was saying the crane doesn't

2 cost that much. But what you're using is RS means.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're using RS means to

4 establish the baseline cost and scaling that up.

5 MR. STARR: Yeah, slide 73.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going move on to --

7 to talk about how we project prices out into the

8 future. I mean those prices you saw here were for

9 the compliance year and then we take them and

10 forecast them out into the future with the AEO. I'm

11 plotting there the last three AEO's 2013, 2014, 2015.

12 We're using 2015 in this analysis and things haven't

13 changed dramatically over these last three AEO's.

14 And we used the 2013 actually in the NOPR. Now we're

15 using the 2015 in this current analysis.

16 Maintenance costs, again, we're basing

17 these solely on RS means. The key here is we're

18 assuming that they do not change with efficiency. So

19 it's like we could have almost assumed it was a

20 million dollars for maintenance costs and it wouldn't

21 have any impact on the analysis because we're

22 assuming it's constant.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

140

1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen, with Rheem.

2 Why do you assume that it's constant?

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're assuming here that

4 it captures routine things like cleaning coils and

5 just doing the normal maintenance checks that folks

6 do. It doesn't involve replacing major components,

7 for example, that xxxmay sale. That's captured in

8 the repair costs.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Would that be filters,

10 though? Because filters have not gone up when the

11 square footage have gone up.

12 MR. THARP: Correct. That's the most

13 common.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This doesn't include

15 filters.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: So filter costs have gone

17 up.

18 MR. THARP: If you look at space on the

19 evaporator side, that could be used as a guide for

20 how much more filters have gotten for the various

21 EL's.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: So we could use the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

141

1 evaporator size from the engineering as a way to

2 increase this maintenance cost, then.

3 MR. THARP: Yeah. Each evaporator and

4 coil.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm Jill from Trane.

6 Filters, you know, it is, but it's not

7 gonna be hundreds of dollars.

8 MR. THARP: No.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're seeing where we

10 are starting from, too. It's a relatively low price.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It's gonna be --

12 maybe when you're looking at a 30-ton unit now you

13 have increased your overall evap site. You have

14 several filters in, there you know, it's gonna go up

15 ten, $20 just for filters.

16 MS. MEYERS: When you group in --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Because you're probably

18 continuing the low option filter there. You're not

19 going to our high efficiency filters, that kind of

20 stuff.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, we can do that

22 easily, right. Just scale by evaporator size to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

142

1 increase this.

2 MS. MEYERS: But I think it's more than

3 filters, though, but I don't know how to quantify it.

4 Typically the more efficient the unit gets, the more

5 the maintenance costs increase because you're

6 using --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: More sophisticated controls.

8 MS. MEYERS: More sophisticated controls

9 and such as that. How would you quantify that?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: You have more space areas to

11 clean if you're cleaning coil. You have more face

12 area to clean.

13 MR. THARP: There's repair part, repair

14 costs and maintenance are separate, right?

15 MS. MEYERS: It's still maintenance.

16 MR. THARP: Still maintenance. Should go

17 up as a result.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think we're

19 getting more sophisticated, it's the A plus BX type

20 thing. There is a base cost for a guy going out

21 there four times a year to look under the hood and

22 then an additional component for the bigger filters,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

143

1 a few other things that will have to be checked. But

2 the question is whether the analysis warrants the

3 additional so NIST case, if there's enough leverage.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Even if you say

5 that's $20, that's high, I don't know what that does

6 to that. Probably not a lot.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Certainly that's not

8 going to have a huge -- I mean, it will have a small

9 effect, if any.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't imagine there being

11 hundreds, it would be 20 to a hundred.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember

13 we're dealing with equipment prices thousands of

14 dollars here, right, you know, and --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So it's not -- I

16 don't know how we would price it.

17 MR. SACHS: I suspect the variability is

18 small compared to the number of RTU's they can fit on

19 the same site visit, it's windshield time and a lot

20 of other things. I'm not sure it's worth getting

21 into detail on this one. That that they said they

22 clean coils.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

144

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's not go into skill

2 level and what they do.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: So these are

4 noncompressor repair costs. Again, we're doing

5 something relatively straightforward. We're taking,

6 getting repair costs out of RS means, scaling that

7 with equipment price and then in the analysis,

8 assuming that that price occurs in the tenth year of

9 the equipment's life, to get a present value for the

10 life cycle cost calculation.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: So where did that come from?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: The tenth year?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was purely our

15 estimate.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: It was in RS means.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was in RS means?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Sorry. She is the one

20 who did the repair costs obviously.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I find that interesting

22 because you have fans and contactors that are almost
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

145

1 always going to go out in four or five years so

2 you're getting a repair visit for contactors and

3 relays likely twice before this ten years.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that includes

5 anything that --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It includes the compressor

7 and more expensive stuff I realize.

8 MR. THARP: Yeah and internal analysis

9 what I would see is the typical bathtub curb, right?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. THARP: You have a lot more on the

12 front end, its near-end-of-life failures, then near

13 end of life --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Start wrapping up again. I

15 didn't know where that came from, but that's --

16 whether it's seven, if we made it seven, is that

17 substantially -- because these costs aren't huge

18 compared to like you said, the install cost and all

19 this other, so --

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I mean, if you

21 move up from ten to seven, would it make a little bit

22 of a difference. I mean you're talking about three
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

146

1 less years of discounting, right, to get a present

2 value and that can be -- you know, I think our

3 discount rate in this analysis is almost five

4 percent, so it could. Again, the only place we're

5 getting it from is the RS Means, that year over ten.

6 MR. SACHS: It's not only RS means, this

7 is RS means national.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

9 MR. SACHS: Not formulation driven or

10 anything like that because those labor costs vary

11 enormously. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE so, again, it

12 sounds to me like signal to noise ratio of getting

13 more sophisticated is not likely to be real high.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Charlie, you may or may not

15 be on mute, but, Charlie, I was wondering if maybe

16 you could get from contractors whether they agree

17 with this as a ten-year or should it be more like a

18 seven-year, averaging the more expensive repair costs

19 with the more minor ones. If you can get a sense or

20 feel for that maybe by our next meeting.

21 MR. McCRUDDEN: I think if I'm not on

22 mute, and the answer is yes.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

147

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks.

2 MR. McCRUDDEN: I can put together some

3 information by next week.

4 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen, with Rheem.

5 Did we cross out the staged air volume on

6 zero single to single zero dual again? Did we

7 cross --

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. Yes.

9 MS. MEYERS: So then we go back BEGIN NOTE

10 and then we go back to what I had with equipment

11 cost, we say the peer cost with efficiency level one

12 and two, it's actually less per staged air volume at

13 efficiency level two than the constant air volume

14 unit. So I still question that relationship, you

15 know, very minimal differences. So -- where it hit

16 that's just scaled from the costs so that is why.

17 MS. MEYERS: I think that may be an

18 inherent issue in the analysis is we're staging all

19 this from the cost. I'm not sure that's appropriate.

20 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. So the

21 non-compressor repair costs that are things like your

22 heat exchanger, all the other pieces that can go
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

148

1 wrong, and is there a warranty on that in terms of

2 those pieces, like heat exchanger is probably not

3 going go out, right? It has a 15 or 20-year

4 warranty. So this is, say, inside the ten years what

5 can basically go wrong and RS means has a little

6 column for that that indicates this ten year.

7 MR. THARP: The warranty is typically

8 parts only.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Commercial? Parts

10 only. Your quoting residential warrants right there.

11 You're not quoting commercial warranties by any

12 means.

13 MR. STARR: They have some on the

14 compressors. But the other items, you have a heat

15 exchanger warranty on your commercial.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Relay, contactors, you know

17 how many are in those? A lot. And motors. You're

18 gonna have motor issues, maybe an outdoor fan motor

19 in five years.

20 MR. STARR: So they're saying 1600 over

21 ten years.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: On a 30-ton, you've got, you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

149

1 know, four of the fan motors.

2 MR. STARR: So that number, let's just

3 take your seven and half ton, $1600, how did you look

4 that up in RS means? Do they have a column for that

5 or how did they --

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'll let Alison respond

7 to that.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So RS Means looked at

9 different things like controlled applied fans,

10 bearings, motors, fans, et cetera, and so we're just

11 excluding the compressor line item from these and

12 taking the rest of it.

13 MR. STARR: That's fine. To some extent

14 RS means is about -- to use something better than

15 that is pretty hard unless you get -- okay, that's

16 good.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. We will move ton

18 the next one, which is just the compressor repair

19 costs. One thing I didn't note before is that

20 those -- those noncompressor repair costs are applied

21 to all, all consumers, all units in the analysis.

22 The compressor repair costs are applied only to 20
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

150

1 percent of units, figuring that on average, only 20

2 percent of compressors are going to fail in the life

3 of the product. So again, we're applying these

4 compressor repair costs in the tenth year of the

5 product's lifetime and we're using, as I think I

6 noted earlier, the labor from RS means but for the --

7 for the actual compressor itself, we're getting that

8 from Granger. We're scaling that to get the cost, to

9 get the price associated with each of the efficiency

10 levels. And so this is the result of doing that

11 analysis.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill, from Trane.

13 And so then the one thing that you did

14 then with the 30-ton is you said that basically took

15 the -- took the life that much longer, is that right?

16 So if it was a 17-year life, you repaired the

17 compressor at ten and now you've put another 17 years

18 into its life?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you'll see, and I

20 think in the next slide that we -- I'm jumping the

21 gun. You'll see the shipments analysis next week but

22 we, based upon -- we got a lot of negative comments
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

151

1 on our -- on our analysis and we revamped it. One of

2 the things that we -- we no longer do is assume that

3 the 30-tons, when it encounters a compressor repair

4 and it -- every single unit is gonna choose to repair

5 rather than replace. So we're no longer doing that.

6 But, also, we're no longer having the same product

7 lifetime for every unit.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Okay.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the 30-ton units have

10 a lifetime of over 30 years in our revamped analysis.

11 And that's more or less based upon --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I love that. Thank you for

13 giving us that reliability and durability that we

14 don't have.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're basically doing it

16 on a very few historical shipments values we have and

17 trying to fit a lifetime value to that. You want the

18 comment further on that, Katie?

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, this is Katie. I

20 just wanted to make sure we are awaiting new data,

21 right, from you. So the lifetimes are estimated by

22 calibrating the shipments model. So if we get more
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

152

1 recent shipments, that estimate may change.

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, thank you for making

3 that point. But right now, we just -- we just have

4 limited data and this is what we're getting from it.

5 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I thought

6 DOE did have -- I forgot what they call it, but it's

7 basically a thing the equipment goes it's 20, a

8 lifetime decay. I forget the exact term. It's not

9 the YO -- it basically shows that equipment, you can

10 repair something for only so long, then eventually,

11 you can't repair it. Actually it was in our

12 comments. And then making joint comments and those

13 as well. I'll go back and find it. Really, 30 years

14 for a unit is approaching very unrealistic -- we all

15 agree, hey? What number do you think --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Anecdotally, I have on a

17 40-ton unit that's been up there -- that's been up

18 there for 40 years, so as long as I've worked there.

19 MR. SACHS: So equipment life is

20 proportional to time.

21 MR. STARR: If you go to the database that

22 has all the equipment life of course you look in
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

153

1 there, admittedly that's people that's registering

2 their equipment, seeing how long it is, there's not

3 very many things over 25 years in that.

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Equipment age is not

5 lifetime.

6 MR. STARR: That's true. Doesn't

7 necessarily. But the other one, though, it does

8 kinds of realistically, though, the units do get --

9 30 years is better. It's better than 40 -- 36

10 before, actually. I think it's more in the range of

11 somewhere between 20, 20 and 27 is more like the

12 realistic number. Although I am kind of curious why

13 the manufacturers, wouldn't you all want a longer

14 lifetime or -- or no? I was trying to figure out.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a balance of paying up

16 front for that or not.

17 MR. STARR: It will affect your shipments

18 number. Anyway, I see. I mean, if you assume it

19 means your shipments would drop off because we would

20 have to buy units whether they wanted to northxxx

21 because of the shorter lifetime but the cost is

22 transferred back to the front.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

154

1 MS. HOOTMAN: You have to put in more

2 durable, your fans, your bearings. All nah from the

3 beginning has to be thicker metal, heavier sheet

4 metal. You look at those industrial units, there's a

5 difference.

6 MR. STARR: Of course the price that we're

7 reflecting today doesn't include that upgrade, right?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. But you

9 know, if you are going to make them last that long in

10 your analysis, then you have to go back and load all

11 those costs in for all those years.

12 MR. STARR: Seems like the easier thick

13 would be to assume a shorter list lifetime.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I would say they are a

15 little long ir their lifetime.

16 MR. STARR: A little long in the tooth.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, are we talking --

18 are we off the compressor repair or -- and onto the

19 equipment lifetime now.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: So this first part is

22 just, it's a repeat from what we had presented from
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

155

1 the NOPR analysis, just trying to demonstrate that,

2 you know, the lifetime is longer than the 15, 16-year

3 time period, at least as indicated by this

4 information in the ASHRAE database. BEGIN NOTE.

5 As Katie said in the shipping analysis, to

6 use that to call plate what a lifetime would be in

7 our shipments model, BEGIN NOTE this is what we come

8 out with. You can see the mean and median values for

9 each of the three equipment classes. 21, 23, 34. I

10 don't know if this -- I don't know, if you're shaking

11 your head about the 30-ton?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree with any of

13 them.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: So, again, the -- we have

15 probably very poor information on relative market

16 share, so that's another thing that influences --

17 essentially the stock turnover depends on the market

18 share, so we have a low market share and -- anyway,

19 my point is --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm having trouble figuring

21 that out.

22 MS. COUGHLIN: I'm explain the mechanics
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

156

1 next time. What I want to say is market share also

2 affects calibration. So it's not just shipments but

3 also relative market share will influence the way we

4 try to match what we think drives the stock turnover

5 with the actual data.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and also, isn't the

7 next comment relating to that? I mean, if you think

8 the mean is 18.4 and 18.7, then that's also relating

9 to where you have the shipments and the turnover

10 happen, is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So I also don't agree with 18.4 and 18.7.

13 MR. AMRANE: I guess how would you explain

14 the complaining between 21.1 and 32.7?

15 MR. STARR: It seems like it went the

16 wrong direction.

17 MR. AMRANE: Explain what it means. Do

18 you have the same kind of mechanical system?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: The big change is

20 inclusion of these compressor repairs in the base

21 case, which we didn't have before. So that's -- I

22 know that before in terms of the LCL analysis where
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

157

1 we went from -- that's a driver to go from 18 to 21

2 years, effectively.

3 MR. STARR: So really before you were at

4 36 because you replaced the compressor and assumed

5 another lifetime. So actually you're coming down

6 from 36 to 21, is that --

7 A. Well, you're thinking -- you're thinking

8 of only the 30 ton when you say that because --

9 MS. COUGHLIN: The calibration for the

10 shipments is the service lifetime. It's the lifetime

11 someone owns it whether it is replaced or not. That

12 should include the base case repair that Greg is

13 referring to.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: What you're thinking of

15 we had in the last analysis when you repair the unit

16 in the north, you extend the lifetime. BEGIN NOTE

17 for 7.5 and 15 tons, not all units got repaired. In

18 30-tons, they did. So there where we had an

19 effective lifetime of 36 years for 30 tons, right?

20 But in the other two classes, you know, for some of

21 the standard levels where you had a huge decrease,

22 yes, for that fraction, it would effectively double
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

158

1 the lifetime. But in the base case for seven and a

2 half and 15 tons, the mean was 18 years.

3 MR. STARR: So really when you say the

4 lifetime, the lifetime's really 21, what most units

5 are replaced at is 18 or --

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: No.

7 That was the old analysis. I put that up there for

8 comparison. So what we're doing now in the life

9 cycle cost analysis where these lifetimes come

10 from -- our current base ship estimate of what the

11 lifetime should be. And what we had in the past were

12 those 18-year values.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: So that is again the

14 lifetime including the assumption of a certain

15 fraction of compressor repairs. So it's not

16 necessarily you have a lifetime without that major

17 repair that would extend.

18 MR. STARR: So to got 21 years, are you

19 replacing the compressor twice?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: We're trying to calibrate a

21 distribution of lifetimes to the shipment method.

22 So these --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

159

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Also, remember 20 percent

2 of units are getting compressor repair.

3 MR. STARR: Right. So it's skewing it a

4 little bit up.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's moving it out.

6 MR. STARR: Isn't it a stretch to think a

7 unit on average can go out and install a bunch of

8 units that each one in general is going to last 21

9 years, knowing that 20 percent --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just not gonna happen.

11 MR. STARR: It seems like first of all,

12 people tear off units that are in good shape and

13 throw them away or put them on Craig's List.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: The distribution is pretty

15 broad.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Craig's List?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really? Put that on the

19 record.

20 MR. SACHS: You can get them dry shipped.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: I think we should probably

22 just wait for the next meeting to get into this
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

160

1 because we're going to have a whole presentation on

2 the shipments model.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: All right.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: On that note, though,

5 I'll just make another plea for whatever data we can

6 get from AHRI.

7 MS. MEYERS: Jess I know you don't have it

8 by efficiency but the shipment that by size is

9 released monthly from AHRI in a monthly statistical

10 release so it's there.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't think it's /T-T

12 granularity here what we're talking about here, air

13 cooled three phase equipment class.

14 MS. MEYERS: Well, it would be cheaper --

15 MR. STARR: If we got that from the

16 manufacturer could we use that?

17 MS. MEYERS: I'm looking at them.

18 MR. STARR: The answer to that was "yes,"

19 by the way.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Just

21 foreshadowing next week's discussion, but how did you

22 use the ASHRAE database?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

161

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. That was just

2 information that that was at least validated to us

3 that the equipment lifetime should be longer than 15

4 to 16 years.

5 MR. SACHS: Thanks.

6 This is Harvey, again.

7 I guess one of the questions that's been

8 on my mind since I worked on this kind of data 15

9 years ago is to what extent models are being produced

10 or having been introduced in the last few years are

11 really comparable to the models for which we now have

12 full service life information? There's a sense

13 there, Mr. Demmingxxx and others have introduced a

14 method that might have cut or safety factors or

15 margins and manufacturing dollars have gotten higher.

16 BEGIN NOTE so there's a sense I have that it is going

17 to be certain amount of uncertainty involved in

18 forward projections of service life. I'm looking for

19 comments from the manufacturers.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a valid point. A valid

21 point. I will say that I will agree with ASHRAE at

22 16 years and only five very small percentage live to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

162

1 22 years. That would be more what we see. We look

2 at our shipment data and history and see how it turns

3 over, we would see it more in the 16 year.

4 MR. SACHS: And, of course, your equipment

5 lasts much longer than anyone else's.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily.

7 MR. THARP: Jill?

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Something beats a Trane?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying that we're

10 exceptional. I'm not.

11 MR. STARR: I don't know what a weeble

12 distribution looks like --

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like this. For the

14 record, it looked like this. BEGIN NOTE indicates

15 END NOTE.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, it's Y.

17 MR. SACHS: Goes up, then is flattened off

18 the table.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I guess also for the record,

20 I would say will is no way you put a compressor in a

21 10-year-old unit that it will live another ten years.

22 Every other component has already been in that
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

163

1 system, had a lot of life on it and a lot of

2 degradation.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: So it is not a new unit by

5 any means.

6 MS. COUGHLIN: We would welcome any input

7 you have on that because we really have no

8 information to understand how long --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just practicality. Do

10 you put a new engine in your car at 200,000 miles and

11 think it's going to go another 200,000? Everything

12 else about that car is rusting apart and falling

13 apart so it's not gonna -- it's not gonna go.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: There could be a

15 disconnect from the contractor side when they come.

16 I'm going to relate more to residential experience.

17 I maybe they're not -- I think there is some level of

18 promise from a repair guy who comes in and pretty

19 much makes that sales pitch. I'm not saying I agree

20 with it but he will probably say you'll get a whole

21 other life out of this thing and that's what people

22 are basing that decision on, which is a disconnect
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

164

1 from our analysis.

2 MR. STARR: The contractor usually tries

3 to up-sell for more labor, bringing in, selling

4 selling a more expensive piece of equipment.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: If the guy says I'm not

6 paying $5200, the next point of making money is

7 saying I can get the compressor switched out and get

8 you another ten years.

9 MR. STARR: He tries to sell the most

10 expensive thing first.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Smart guy.

12 MR. STARR: I actually did call a couple

13 of mechanical contractors, just to get their take on

14 it. In general, they said if -- well, and these were

15 reputable contractors. So, in general, they looked

16 at it and they thought it was a better -- usually

17 people were first cost sensitive and so they just

18 wanted to replace it, keep replacing because their

19 lease would be over in three years and they --

20 sometimes how the leases were written, they would

21 have to pay for the replacement unit so that drove

22 them to make maybe not the best decision. But a lot
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

165

1 of times, they would try to sell the, you know, we

2 can replace this, it as not going to last very much

3 longer. Typically with compressors they said when

4 they go back to replace it, they have burnout.

5 Something happened to the motor and they distribute

6 it to the system. They go back and try to clean it.

7 So when they put in a new economizer you don't have

8 the same life because you have all this carbon in the

9 system, so it messes up your compressor. So instead

10 of getting ten years out of your money in the first

11 one, they get half the life in the second one.

12 So they would usually tell the home owner that or the

13 person who calls in the system. You're probably

14 going to have more problems sooner, so you're not

15 going to double your life. There are a lot ever

16 other things like the coils themselves are rusting

17 away. You can replace those, it's like an old car,

18 there are so many things that start to go wrong on it

19 that you definitely have a real degradation of it.

20 Then there are are a certain portion that are costs

21 can, and they just want to get it till next year when

22 their lease is over.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

166

1 So there is kind after mix of that.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So once we get the new HR

3 data and Katie puts it in the model, the fact of the

4 matter is, those numbers shake out from strict data.

5 You know, to me, as an analyst, it's hard for me to

6 just ignore what the data tell you, just because I

7 think it should be 25. You know, I don't -- the

8 shipments are gonna give you the answer. That shakes

9 out from the shipments. So unless someone has that

10 better way to describe that relationship, we should

11 definitely either say that the shipment data are a

12 reliable way of calculating these numbers or they're

13 not.

14 MR. STARR: That's actually I guess more

15 after question of a manufacturer since they filled

16 out the data. Do you think that will kind reef veal

17 that information?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I have no idea how it play

19 noose that formula at all. I have no idea how, I

20 really don't understand how it goes into that

21 formula. But I can tell you that we look at it all

22 the time what our history of sales and when's the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

167

1 next time, you know, stuff is -- because we know how

2 much we've sold and when are -- when are things going

3 to start to break. And we look at 15 and 16 years.

4 That is where the peak of the curve is. It might be

5 more like 17 on your -- on your 30 tons plus. It

6 might just shift a little bit on those.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: The mean or median can be

8 what it is and, you know, the curve could be very

9 steep or it could be more flat around that. So --

10 but generally speaking, they cluster around that

11 central point of failure.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. I would agree.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: You agree.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no question there's

15 that --

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We agree it's not linear.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's good.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: So I think, Greg, do you

20 know what the late day of shipments that has come

21 out, the last year, rather from? It's a long time

22 ago. So commercial construction boom after the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

168

1 period when we have shipments data, so we really do

2 not have -- we have like the --

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was for the last rule

4 and I think it might have been up to 1999 or 2000

5 that we provided data for. Then we have to do

6 basically from census data for the more recent years

7 and that's high.

8 MR. STARR:xxx well, it's uncertain, put it

9 that way.

10 MS. COUGHLIN: The other issue is for

11 saturation we had to rely on CBECS 99. In 2008, they

12 changed the sampling procedure and 2012 just came

13 out. So essentially we're trying to get to 1999 to

14 now with nothing.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not nothing.

16 We just have to deduce and make assumptions.

17 MR. STARR: Essentially you know what the

18 shipments were in 1999. Xxyou know what if

19 distributions were of those shipments to build it.

20 So now when the interrogatory says provide

21 information for 2011 or 2014, you will no how many of

22 those units are still running or got replaced, is
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

169

1 that how you're making the decision?

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Again, I don't want to talk

3 about the details. Just think if you ever had to

4 extrapolate, anything can happen. I'm kind of

5 extrapolating, you have the a data.

6 MR. STARR: You're ex-trapping not

7 extrapolating BEGIN NOTE.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah.

9 MR. STARR: You feel comfortable you would

10 be able to modify this stuff assuming it was

11 different, you would be able to mod my the data

12 fairly easy to more data points, feel pretty secure

13 in getting the number off the screen in lifetime.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: I won't say "secure." That

15 would be a big improvement on the confidence and the

16 number -- who knows what the number will change.

17 MR. STARR: Okay.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: We are moving on to the

19 next slide, then. This talks about the discount

20 rate, which is as I'm sure is used to value future

21 operating cost savings in the analysis. Again, no

22 changes here actually. We didn't do anything to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

170

1 update the discount rates from the NOPR for this

2 analysis. And I think a lot of you are familiar

3 here. We use this weighted average capital cost

4 technique where we, you know, look at the first who

5 would be buying this equipment and assess their --

6 their, you know, their holdings, how much they hold

7 in debt and equity to come up with what we feel is

8 something that would be Representative of how they

9 would value operating cost savings. Again, that

10 value turns out to be 4.66 percent. That's real.

11 And that's what we're using in this analysis.

12 MR. THARP: Just a quick question. In

13 the -- it seems that the discount rates change from

14 NOPR to NOPR. In the commercial furnace, the

15 discount rate of 8.9 percent was used.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really.

17 MR. THARP: Yeah. In the commercial AC

18 heat pump, 6.2 percent was used. So I'm curious as

19 to why. At peak California, 8 and a half percent was

20 used.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: These are discount rates

22 you're talking about.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

171

1 MR. THARP: Yes. Actually Goodman put

2 this into our comments for the commercial furnace

3 because we're going back and comparing some things,

4 we saw there was a sizable difference between

5 Sunday's discontinue rates. I understand why there

6 would be differences for residential tape products

7 and commercial type products. So it seems that in

8 most of the commercial products, it's closer to eight

9 and a half, nine percent. And the commercial was

10 6.2.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: All I can say is I'll

12 have to get back to you on that and look into that

13 and see what's going on there. I -- I can't believe

14 that's actually the discount rate that was used but

15 let me look into that. I'll look at Ptacks, I'll

16 look at commercial services and report back next

17 week, if not earlier BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

18 This is, again, what I call the base case

19 efficiency distribution or energy efficiency in the

20 base characters that is the ISCAxxx without

21 standards. I think we can all go straight to the

22 table because we're more or less using the same
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

172

1 distributions that we had, that we used in the NOPR.

2 With this twist that now that we're analyzing

3 constant air volume buildings and variable air volume

4 buildings, we're assuming that no product or no

5 mocker chair of the baseline level goes into BABA

6 buildings. Then all we do is we just move up that

7 distribution we have from the NOPR up one efficiency

8 level. So it starts with efficiency level one, as

9 opposed to the baseline level in constant air value

10 buildings.

11 We're basically on any market share at the

12 dataxxx we get from AHRI to update this, but for the

13 numbers you're seeing today, which will be in the

14 next slide, the "l" is what we have used in terms

15 after distribution of a product by efficiency level.

16 Q. I'm just repeating what we used for 30 ton

17 but we don't have any analysis for 30ton yet.

18 Hopefully next week.

19 Q. So I was thinking here maybe we just --

20 again, I'm just showing you the numbers we used --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: To update what we do here
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

173

1 going into the future. BEGIN NOTE END NOTE.

2 And these are the results. So on the left

3 are the results for -- well, what happened?

4 Obviously I don't know, those numbers here first year

5 operating cost and simple payback period, I remember

6 populating them. I don't know what happened so I

7 apologize, I sincerely apologize for that. Anyway,

8 at least we can compare the total and installed

9 costs, lifetime operating costs and the life-cycle

10 costs. Then on the bottom table shows you the

11 average LCC savings by efficiency level, as well as

12 the percent of consumers they're incurring a net

13 cost. We can start with the total installed cost.

14 You can see that it has gone up at the baseline level

15 and generally speaking for all efficiency levels.

16 Maybe at a break, I can pull -- I can find the slide

17 that shows the first year operating. That's

18 really -- the lifetime operating costs and the life

19 cycle costs haven't gone up because of what you've

20 seen prior in the energy use analysis, right. I

21 mean, we -- the energy use for the product has gone

22 up appreciably per unit due to the changes that have
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

174

1 been made to the energies analysis to account for

2 higher external static pressures mas well as the

3 additional load created by the fan that the

4 compressor has to now serve as a result of those hire

5 statics. So that's the basic reason why the lifetime

6 operating cost has increased, like see it here, since

7 the NOPR. I can tell you the simple payback periods

8 have gone up. And if you you're going down to the

9 life cycle cost savings here, meaning all life cycle

10 cost savings are generally lower than what we saw in

11 the NOPR. You can see the percent of consumers where

12 we had, for three of the efficiency that consumers

13 being negatively impacted, if we're having a

14 relatively significant factor being hurt by the

15 standard left. BEGIN NOTE.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So that percent of

17 consumers with net cost, that's not cost increase?

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, that's cost

19 increase. So obviously there's a track of consumers

20 here not impacted all all and the consumers that are

21 actually benefiting. This is just focusing on those

22 that they're incurring a cost.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

175

1 These -- why are they -- where are they at

2 -- here, I have all columns calculated, the simple

3 payback period for the NOPR. Here, it's a little bit

4 of a different story. We still have the lifetime

5 operating costs going up significantly and the life

6 cycle costs going up significantly for the same

7 reasons I told you for the seven and a half tons.

8 BEGIN NOTE total installed costs also goes up a bit.

9 And the resultant simple payback period have

10 actually -- at least for the first five efficiency

11 levels have gone down relative to the NOPR.

12 When you look at things for the life cycle

13 cost savings, again, there's a little bumping up and

14 down here going from one efficiency left to the next

15 "M", but the one thing that has changed significantly

16 is this percent of consumers where you hardly had any

17 with the net cost with the NOPR, now you have a

18 significant amount experiencing costs under this

19 revised analysis. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

20 We probably have to clue on these numbers

21 a bit. This is just the outcome of everything you've

22 seen prior, all the changes to the engineering,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

176

1 changes to the energy use, changes to the other

2 inputs that go into the life cycle cost. This is the

3 result of all those changes. I don't know if this is

4 a good time to break.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask the group here.

6 What do we need to do to clarify or agree upon today,

7 in order to have a clear path going forward? And is

8 that something that you all want to work on as home

9 work during a working lunch so that we can come back

10 and try to clarify as much as we can before we break

11 today?

12 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. It sounds

13 like there's a couple things that we're getting

14 information on, like --

15 MR. McCABE: Manufacture shipment data.

16 MR. STARR: Well, that first and maybe the

17 riff first. There are some issues like that that

18 probably require some more thinking about or --

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what I would suggest

20 maybe, let's take lunch. Let me sit down with my

21 team and I think maybe Detlef goes through what he

22 thinks are his outstanding engineering needs and
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

177

1 issues and I think we comment on that and then Greg,

2 Alison, Katie do the same. And then I have circled

3 the wagons.

4 Does that sound fair?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: That sounds fair.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I guess I'm

7 feeling a little bit that we have a fair amount of

8 uncertainty being moderated by the data that is

9 coming in. I think that I'd rather hold off until we

10 have those real quotes.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, I just want to

12 agree upon what we think is our work to do.

13 MR. SACHS: Yes, that --

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And finish it up, right.

15 You're going to see new numbers again next time.

16 Clearly there will be comments on it, right? I don't

17 think anyone expects it to be poof without -- but I

18 don't want to leave a rock unturned at this and then

19 have that rock be presented next time. That's what

20 I'm trying to avoid. We take two steps forward and

21 then maybe we can take a step back. I want to avoid

22 the "back" if we can. Some things are going to pop
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

178

1 up am I do expect that. But, you know, we are

2 sitting here in May. We've got a month, roughly,

3 so --

4 MR. SACHS: I think I'd also want to say

5 that --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is the part where he

7 strokes the government and his team? Or is he going

8 on a rant?

9 MR. SACHS: I was going to particularly

10 thank or colleagues in industry for all the data they

11 promised.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Promised.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Until you see such data --

14 let's take a lunch and all get -- reconvene.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So how much time do you want

16 for lunch?

17 MR. BANTLE: What about ten to noon?

18 MR. THARP: At least 30 minutes, no more

19 than 45.

20 MR. BANTLE: Okay, 12:35 is your 45

21 minutes. 12:30.

22 (A break was taken.)
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

179

1 MR. BANTLE: Thank you, everyone, for

2 getting back. So this afternoon, before we do finish

3 up, I this the first thing we want to do, we've had

4 DOE go through all their information. I'm just going

5 to figure out, what assumptions do we need to make

6 and where do we need to go from here? So I turn it

7 over I think first to you all. What information do

8 you still need? Where are the glaring openings that

9 you think you needs information? Then we can discuss

10 who can provide those best.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So to rephrase a little

12 bit, not just the data, what analysis we'll be doing.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef

14 Westphalen.

15 So on the furnaces, might as well start

16 with that. Speaking for Adam, he'll be looking at

17 addressing some of the comments regarding you know,

18 how to increase heat exchanger size. Looking at

19 adding a tube rather than going for longer tubes.

20 Otherwise consider potential impacts regarding size,

21 there's not enough room. And then he'll be looking

22 at alternate materials at 82 percent. And looking to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

180

1 revise the analyses.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: If I get that stuff, can I

3 send it to you just because I don't have his e-mail?

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, if you send it to

5 me, I'll forward it.

6 MR. HUNT: Excuse me, are the commercial

7 furnaces impacted by the possible change in the

8 furnace testing, the RES furnaces, or do you know?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry.

10 MR. HUNT: Are commercial furnaces

11 affected by the possible change of test in

12 residential furnaces?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Completely different

14 rulemaking and test procedures.

15 MR. HUNT: Good.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: You're talking about thermal

17 efficiency here?

18 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you done with CWAFs

20 on your side?

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Do you want to address

22 CWAFs?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

181

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: I have a note here to do

2 82 percent AQE, and I guess the question is what

3 fraction of the AQE amPoussaint population to apply

4 them to. And I guess I -- I guess I'm just looking

5 for some input about -- about that. I mean, who --

6 who brought -- was it -- was it Bob, you, who brought

7 the information about --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: At what temperature.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- you have to be

12 concerned about?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. So maybe we can

14 get together and come up with some input for you.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Because my thinking is

16 there's probably a lot of furnace installations with,

17 you know, when you get -- at some point during the

18 winter, you'll be below 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I

19 guess just how often is it below there so that it has

20 to become a concern, right? So -- so maybe you just

21 have to always apply it, for example, electrical heat

22 tape or something like that or something like, that
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

182

1 regardless. I don't know.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So that's a whole

3 different issue. That's related to the condensate

4 drain.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Drain, right.

6 MR. STARR: It's kind of related to the

7 climates and where you sell the equipment, more or

8 less. In other words, colder climates, more need for

9 condensate rules.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Sure.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Any time you have a

12 designing temp below 32 degrees, it freezes and it's

13 out on a roof, so you're gonna have to heat tape it,

14 and that goes down to a good portion of the south,

15 even.

16 MR. STARR: Yeah. I was talking more

17 about the actual condensate pumps because you only

18 need to the condensate pumps, right, light when it's

19 super chilly, I think like minus 7 or 7.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: You're also, think about a

21 roof and how far you might have to go with that

22 condensate. So you might not have enough distance to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

183

1 be able to get the right pitch so you might still

2 have to be pumping it somewhere because it's so long

3 on a roof.

4 MR. STARR: But your 82 shouldn't be

5 producing condensate all the time, right? That's

6 when it as misbehaving when it's producing

7 condensate.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's going happen at

9 lower outdoor temperatures, right? Or if you have

10 cold spots in there. I mean it's still -- it could

11 be at a higher temperature where you have cold spots

12 inside.

13 MR. STARR: But I mean you wouldn't -- I

14 was thinking you would mainly be concerned about

15 where you have really cold climates and that

16 potential have a regular basis for having condensate.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Like the northern part of the

18 U.S., right?

19 MR. STARR: Right. But in other words,

20 probably like -- well, Georgia even though it does

21 get less than 32 there occasionally, you probably

22 wouldn't need a condensate drain for that because you
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

184

1 wouldn't necessarily be condensing in your coil to

2 necessarily facilitate the need for a condensate

3 pump.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Did you say Georgia?

5 MR. STARR: Oh, yeah.

6 MR. DOPPEL: In Georgia, we get down in

7 the 20's all the time.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm saying, the

9 20's come down really low in the United States.

10 MR. STARR: But the condensate, he was

11 talking about.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Condensate happens.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Depends on the efficiency

14 level. In '82, I think it was at -- I have the

15 numbers here. We had single digits in the teens.

16 MR. STARR: What I was getting at if you

17 have low temperatures you probably won't need

18 condensate. You won't need condensate for that every

19 three years it happens.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Depends. Depends on what

21 roof it is on. If they don't wants it to ever get

22 out onto the roof, they're still going to have a
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

185

1 condensate. And those roofs I mean are light, they

2 don't want anything eaten away at them. We don't put

3 screws in panels anymore, so screws don't get on roof

4 and puncture them and have leaks.

5 MR. SACHS: This is so concerning they

6 don't let birds fly over.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: But they're so light weight

8 that a bird would probably go through it. I've

9 walked on them. They're not fun.

10 MR. STARR: I guess I would say there's

11 probably somewhere between using zero degrees and 32,

12 and I don't economy where it is, but a reasonable

13 amount where you're going to have condensate. A code

14 official is not going to make you put a trap, or a

15 condensate with a heat tape for something that

16 happens once every three or four years.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We're not worried about a

18 code official. I'm worried about the reliability of

19 that heat exchanger and the correct and proper

20 installation. They're not monitoring corrective

21 property installations, codes aren't doing that.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Louis, the condensate
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

186

1 END NOTE.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Or OIM is going to say you

3 have to do this.

4 MR. WHITWELL: The condensate issue is a

5 separate issue than the tubes. If you have a

6 corrosive condensate inside the tubes, they are going

7 to wear out and fail earlier than they would if

8 it's -- if there's no condensate being found inside

9 there. It's a reliability issue as much as anything.

10 BEGIN NOTE.

11 MR. STARR: Isn't that the condensate

12 we're talking about, the condensate that's inside

13 potentially 82 percent?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Once it's inside the tube,

15 it is going to drain off.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It drains out the drum, in

17 our case.

18 MR. STARR: Where you dump the AC

19 condensate, typically.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, it's another whole

21 pipe.

22 MR. STARR: You're piping it to where
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

187

1 separately?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

3 MR. STARR: Why? Is it because they're

4 not close enough to pipe together, is that what

5 you're saying?

6 MR. WHITWELL: It's because the condensate

7 is acidic.

8 MR. STARR: If it only happens once in a

9 while --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It was acidic in '80 and

11 '81, just not nearly as much.

12 MR. STARR: Typically how much condensate

13 are you producing on a regular basis? Is it --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I have never measured. I

15 have no idea. Never measured.

16 MR. BANTLE: If I can jump in, I think,

17 Greg, you were originally looking for what fraction

18 of the products this would apply for, correct?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

20 MR. BANTLE: And is it safe just for my

21 notes, Jill and Bob, you're going look into that and

22 provide that information?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

188

1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

2 MR. BANTLE: Okay, thank you.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: And others.

4 MR. WHITWELL: It is going to be an

5 estimate, right?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Based on comply math.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: The next item is just

9 updating the efficiency distribution in the base case

10 to the latest HR directory instead of the one that

11 was used for the proposed rule.

12 So we'll go ahead and do that.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Say again?

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was --

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 50-50 versus the

16 70-20.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it.

18 MR. HUNT: And no 828's.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was updating this.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, the ten slides up.

21 It is going to be more like 50491, I think.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the other one is,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

189

1 just to make sure that this is consistent with

2 whatever we do with the AC. Don't have a disconnect

3 between what we're forecasting for furnace and AC.

4 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey.

5 I assume those data are in tabular form in

6 NOPR or something? I'm just trying to dismiss the

7 concerns about oil-fired ones and it looks to me it's

8 maximum 25,000 a year. I haven't bothered to check

9 the NOPR.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So you'd just like to see

11 that information in a tabular form.

12 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Want to make sure I can

13 convince my colleagues that, A, there are no oil

14 furnace people here, and, B, there's no energy to be

15 worried about.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

17 MR. SACHS: I don't think anyone here

18 manufactures oil furnaces.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just right here.

20 XxxMR. WINNINGHAM: Lennox does.

21 MR. SACHS: Commercial oil furnaces, you

22 manufacture?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

190

1 MR. WINNINGHAM: (Nods head.)

2 MR. SACHS: So we are raising.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Any other furnace issues?

4 Okay. So that backs up.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Air conditioners, we will

6 be working on the 30-ton analysis. And on the energy

7 side of that, we'll be interacting with some of the

8 manufacturers to get a better understanding of what's

9 happening with compressor staging and air flow

10 staging, the units rated with VAV operation. We will

11 be investigating the unit size trends more,

12 specifically looking at all the key capacities within

13 the ranges for these classes, see at what efficiency

14 levels the size changes would require conversion

15 curb.

16 MR. STARR: You're talking about the

17 casing size, is that what you're referring to?

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, the footprint.

19 MR. SACHS: This is still 30 ton?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: With the length. Height

21 won't matter.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: This will be all the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

191

1 classes. We showed data for 7.5, 15 and 30 and one

2 of the comments was okay well, maybe an 8.5 will jump

3 sizes at a different level.

4 MR. SACHS: You know this -- this is

5 Harvey. I lost my train of thought. We will come

6 back to it.

7 MR. STARR: So essentially you will figure

8 out the distribution of when you need to provide a

9 drip conversion or --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Conversion.

11 MR. STARR: -- for the classes.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: The intent was to form

13 the discussions. You might remember yesterday I was

14 thinking well, maybe we could just dispense with all

15 that work and just call it EL3. But I don't know, I

16 think the consensus was let's try to get more

17 information before we make that decision.

18 MR. SACHS: Now I remember. This is

19 Harvey again. One of the areas that came up

20 yesterday, and I don't think I fully understand yet,

21 was you distinguish between what you call small

22 cabinet large capacities and large cabinet in one of
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

192

1 your graphs.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: This was in one of the

3 cost graphs, yes for a 30-ton unit.

4 MR. SACHS: And Jill said, gee, this

5 corresponds to what we consider commercial or light

6 commercial versus industrial, I think. Some of us

7 might like to have a better understanding of the

8 applications of the two categories within that.

9 Could be a couple lines in there. I'm not sure if

10 everyone would have a small cabinet or large cabinet.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: I imagine others might be

12 in a better position.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: So the two product lines,

14 the two product lines above 20 tons, you're right,

15 one is what we call more commercial and, you know,

16 just commercial.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Or applied.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. One is very

19 industrial is in the industrial line is much more

20 applied in nature, has back to a certain rule that we

21 did two years ago the one billion trillion whatever

22 combination and we'll do specials on top of that.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

193

1 BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE.

2 So the commercial one is lighter grade

3 sheet metal, it's less industrial, less durable and

4 it's meant for and it only has static performance up

5 to about four inches of static total. So it's meant

6 more for warehousing, you know, little bit more of a

7 light roof construction, maybe -- maybe some offices,

8 but doesn't push a lot of air, by the time you put

9 VAV, it does have VAV options, but by the time you

10 push any air, you're not going very far with it.

11 It's like warehousing and some of the big-box

12 retailers.

13 And then the line that is industrial goes

14 up to now 8 inches in total static. The design

15 options, border options take it even more than that.

16 The collection of the cabinet is mild. We do cabinet

17 things that are now making it not do anything, sealed

18 tight, formed panels that are, you know, insulation

19 in-between them, doors are like, you know, walking

20 into a refrigerator, you know, heavy grade everything

21 on it. It's just will last a long time, heavy.

22 Walk-in cubicles that somebody can sleep in, leave
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

194

1 their tools in.

2 MR. SACHS: Running water, too.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's been done.

4 MR. SACHS: So does the market partition

5 strongly as 50-50 light versus industrial?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, I don't know,

7 I don't remember. I don't think we're partitioning

8 these right now in the numbers that we're doing but,

9 you know, 20 tons, it's gonna be much more 70 percent

10 is in that commercial. As you approach that 60 tons,

11 it's more like 30 percent is in that commercial, much

12 more industrial. And then those lines, those

13 industrial lines go up to 200 and something tons.

14 Q. Typically is the premium for that

15 industrial quality still at 30 percent or 100

16 percent? You know, I'm just trying to get my

17 sense --

18 A. Hundred. More in the hundred.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah it's hard to say

20 because you have different options on the applied

21 type product.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And that can really
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

195

1 get pricey.

2 MR. SACHS: I'm just trying to get a sense

3 of the size and shape of the piece. I'm not looking

4 for cabinet. Thank you, that's very helpful.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: You're up to 25,000 tons and

6 they're very, very heavy.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, can you look at --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Done in two and three

9 pieces.

10 MR. WHITWELL: You've got unibody

11 construction let's say versus something that has

12 I-beams and panels. That's kind of -- that's a big,

13 you know, at a high level, that's kind of what they

14 look like.

15 MR. SACHS: I've seen some of the big ones

16 but wasn't sensitive to the distinction.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: A lot less players when the

18 markets get up there, a lot less of us do it.

19 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

20 MR. STARR: It seems like, though, most of

21 our analysis is around commercial building stock, the

22 CBECS data, all the data is around that. It seems
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

196

1 like those units should be reflected when we're doing

2 the analysis, when we're doing the rest of the

3 analysis. Those units you're talking about are

4 probably factored to one and one and a half times the

5 cost.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So I didn't also say what

7 those industrial ones go on. They typically go on

8 large office buildings. They do have the ability to

9 do ductwork for six stories and push air for six

10 stories, VAV. They go on universities, large

11 industrials, you know, if you go across the southeast

12 and you look at any manufacturing plant, there's a

13 heck of a lot of them out there, manufacturing plants

14 in the southeast.

15 MR. STARR: You telepack that unit or not?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Telepack.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: So from the perspective

18 of the cost analysis, I think what I heard yesterday

19 was it would be appropriate to look at the

20 incremental cost within each package.

21 MR. STARR: The other thing is

22 understanding, you know, most of the sales I think
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

197

1 are going to be 20-ton units on large retail and so

2 you know, Dick was making his point.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Except for Macy's, JP

4 Penney's, Nordstrom's, those are all using the

5 telePACS.

6 MR. STARR: Those are 30 tons?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Some are 60 tons.

8 Nordstrom's is usually two 60 tons. Macy's is two

9 40's. But when you're talking about a big-box

10 retailer like a Wal-Mart, a Home Depot and those,

11 yes, they're 20 and 25 tons.

12 MR. STARR: I guess part of the thing, is

13 understanding in that category, the category in

14 general seems when you get about 20 tons, it's less

15 of a 10 percent of that. So further subdividing I

16 guess if it's worthwhile, I guess. But it seems if

17 you're lower -- it's like most of the equipment sold

18 is three to five tons, right? That's the biggest

19 selling category of anything. And then as you get

20 larger, it gets less of that. And on an energy

21 basis, they do do a lot because they're bigger, so --

22 but from a shipment sale side, it seems like it's
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

198

1 mainly smaller, the more there are of them.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: So does that entail a

3 recommendation or --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: So you want what the jump is

5 between those two product lines as just at 30 tons

6 or --

7 MR. STARR: In relative sales.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: I mean I guess I'm kind

9 of taken aback because I wasn't really asking

10 anything about the size of those. I think Louis

11 brought it up.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought you said you were

13 looking at what you have to take into consideration

14 for those two product lines.

15 MR. WHITWELL: He's going to look at it

16 like on this chart, you were going to look at it the

17 20, 30, 40-ton.

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if for one of those

19 capacities you have to go into the industrial size

20 box in order to get an efficiency level, then, you

21 know, then we have to consider what it takes to, you

22 know, manufacture a unit in that size.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

199

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Now, you wouldn't

3 necessarily have to manufacture that unit to have

4 absolutely no deflections like you might manufacture

5 your big box, but certainly would you have to

6 consider the larger size.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So you don't need

8 anything from us.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not on that. If we look

10 through the data and have questions, then maybe we'll

11 get there.

12 MR. WHITWELL: And you request can look

13 at, look at our data in the HR record and you'll see

14 the smaller stuff runs out before you get to the 30

15 ton at higher efficiency levels.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Because that's the

17 intent. I mean, we were going to look at it not on a

18 box side dimension, but on, you know, per capacity.

19 You know, where does it jump.

20 MR. STARR: I think he was trying to

21 figure out when the casing sizes, when you have a

22 10-ton, can you run seven and a half inside your ten
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

200

1 ton case. So if you went up to an EL3, you could

2 still fit that in the same casing. So I was trying

3 to figure out what, how much percentage in the given

4 size categories would need conversion curbs is what

5 he was trying to get at with his line of questioning,

6 and it sort of morphed into the distribution of the

7 30 tons of how much is this -- I mean, I don't know,

8 I didn't -- I wasn't -- I was talking about the

9 casing sizes, figuring out the occurrence of

10 conversion curbs or not is what I was thinking.

11 The other thing where you -- if you were

12 to try to figure it out -- I don't think you can

13 because you don't know what the distribution of air

14 handlers in the 30 ton class is, is it all 20 tons?

15 Is it all 6 tons? What's the distribution? Unless

16 someone provided you with that information, there's

17 no way you can figure it out. So unless someone does

18 that, I don't see how you can do it again.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: We're doing a 30 ton

20 analysis to represent the full range and, you know,

21 admittedly we've just discussed that there are some

22 issues associated with that. But I think at this
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

201

1 point, it would be kind of a stretch to say we're

2 gonna be doing a 20 and a 40.

3 MR. STARR: I was talking about before we

4 had this conversation.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I hi the reason why we were

6 talking about it is, it is not a linear expansion, it

7 goes exponential when you start to go into those

8 different cabinet breaks in those larger units. The

9 conversion curb is much bigger. It's not a thousand

10 dollars anymore, it's several thousand dollars. Roof

11 structure usually is involved, can't leaving is

12 involved. It's substantial. Tens of thousands of

13 dollars.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's the segue into the

15 next item here.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Just to clarify when I said

17 20, 30, 40, I was talking about looking at box sizes

18 at those capacity size, not doing cost analysis.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, right, right.

21 MR. STARR: Once you get the size of the

22 category back, that will help figure it out, too,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

202

1 right? In other words if that class of unit is ten

2 percent of sales maybe we can do something with it

3 for less than 40 analysis you're saying.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're saying large

5 industrial size is something --

6 MR. STARR: No, just the three categories

7 into they are collecting information on which would

8 be 30 tons, see how many sales are at the 30-ton

9 units or that class of 30 ton. Based upon that

10 number, then you can -- if it's one percent, I don't

11 think you need to do sowing. If it starts to get to

12 get to 10, 20, then you probably need to modify the

13 analysis.

14 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers are smaller,

15 they're still big units, a lot of energy.

16 MR. SACHS: Big units go on big buildings,

17 which consider a higher cooling/heating ratio,

18 typically more hours per year.

19 MR. STARR: I don't know. They want to go

20 back and collect more data, that would be one way to

21 resolve the issue.

22 MR. SACHS: We've got four weeks.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

203

1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, moving on. The

2 segue into the conversion discussion, and I guess

3 we'll be having some discussion with the vendors that

4 you're working with and hoping to gather information

5 on performance aspects, pressure drops associated

6 with, you know, run a conversion curb and then also

7 for the downstream analysis, some information on

8 costs involved and, you know, potentially some input

9 on if there are installation implications like roof

10 structure, also try to get some of that input as

11 well.

12 MR. STARR: Wasn't there also going to

13 be -- I thought smack California was going to provide

14 some sort of pressure drop for the curve is that

15 mark?

16 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni, SMACNA.

17 I have that, among a whole list of other

18 questions that have come up, particularly related to

19 cost and air flow performance. I will reach out to

20 try to differentiate along the lines that you guys

21 have already separated your categories into all about

22 your installation costs and those assumptions,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

204

1 whatnot. I have a whole two pages of notes here so

2 far on things I'll try at least confirm or maybe

3 unfortunately provide a whole other set of opinions

4 on something related to it. That is included.

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just note

6 for my colleagues at ASHRAE that the term roofing

7 structure is shorthand for a whole host of issues

8 that relate to seismic noise, a whole bunch of other

9 things that I think are second order. I know we

10 don't have time to get into. But when it comes to

11 the people doing the specifications, these are thanks

12 will come into play.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: You can't put a unit in

14 California that has the ASHRAE on a conversion curb.

15 There is no way you would have that thing and have it

16 certified.

17 MR. SACHS: Then there's Dade County.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, Dade County is

19 different, in the sense it's a projectile thing. But

20 you can't shape for the curb, you'll be ripping a

21 roof up. No.

22 MR. STARR: There was two primary things I
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

205

1 see mark providing. So it was pressure drop for 7

2 five -- 7, 15 and 30 units along with another thing.

3 The other thing is the typical static pressure for

4 the same size units, that was the deliverable I was

5 thinking about.

6 MR. TERZIGNI: The first two items on the

7 list.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: So I was gonna ask also

9 on behalf of my colleagues at LBNL whether or not,

10 when you collect that data, if it happens to be this

11 week, whether you could get that back Sooner than

12 next week.

13 MR. TERZIGNI: Can we have some time to

14 see what the results are?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. That would be very

16 helpful.

17 MR. TERZIGNI: I have no reason to hang

18 onto it, so as soon as I get it, I'll share it.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thank you.

20 MR. STARR: It would be nice to check out

21 the 90.1 models to see what they're using in the

22 external static pressure. They have 16 prototypes
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

206

1 and parallel some of the xxxstaff that we have in our

2 analysis. So it's another source, that's engineering

3 society. BEGIN NOTE name BEGIN NOTE.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: So as far as the

5 engineering for the commercial air conditioners, I

6 think that covers it. Last night, I sent out the

7 information on the correlations for transferring

8 pressure drops. I don't know if there are any other

9 questions on that.

10 MR. WHITWELL: It was a little surprising

11 to see you're using R 22 data for the evaporator

12 correlations.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I think that's

14 what's in the software. When they update,

15 certainly -- I have to, you know, and I'm not -- I

16 don't know the details of this, but I have to believe

17 that there was some assessment made as to whether it

18 was worth updating software at, you know, at the time

19 to, you know, to do transferring pressure drops don't

20 follow those same correlations, certainly I mean that

21 will be consideration telling the crew that it's time

22 to update.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

207

1 MR. MISLAK: I think there are 410

2 correlations in there the last time I used the

3 designer. I know there are for micro channel for

4 sevenxxx. I design micro channel for modxxx, so I

5 know they're in there.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay.

7 MR. MISLAK: You may want to check it.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: All right. For right or

9 round tube.

10 MR. MISLAK: That, for sure. So fitting

11 two-piece. I'm not sure for the 410A, but I wouldn't

12 see any reason why they wouldn't. If they're in

13 there for micro channel, they have to be in there for

14 fitted tube, but I'll double check.

15 MR. WHITWELL: No one is using the R 44,

16 so I would be surprised if there weren't.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: I can ask about that.

18 MR. MISLAK: I can ask, too.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would imagine if that

20 were available, they would have used it.

21 MR. MISLAK: Yeah.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: This might be -- that's
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

208

1 all I had on the engineering on the commercial AC

2 side. I just want to put on the table that

3 potentially we have come back to the rule discussion

4 but maybe we can wait until Greg talks about his

5 additional work and needs work on commercial AC.

6 BEGIN NOTE dual duct BEGIN NOTE.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for dual duck, why

8 don't we put that on the table for a second.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'll start up with the

10 building BEGIN NOTE name analysis. We are intending

11 to do the sensitivity analysis on the lowneyxxx. I

12 would like to call those clustering of units to serve

13 load rather than having every single unit the same

14 way. That's particularly important for low loads on

15 the building. We have that on our to do list. I

16 just added to collect the 90.1 buildings to see what

17 they were using for external static pressure. Again,

18 we're using .75 and 1.25, which is the water column.

19 We'll see what 90.1 offers up. And then I'm going

20 back to yesterday's conversation regarding

21 economizers. We're still in the process of checking

22 the loads and which temperature bins they are in, to
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

209

1 see whether or not that's a big contribution to low,

2 you know, the cooling loads as to whether or not it

3 makes a difference to even go chasing after trying to

4 do something to address economizer use. So we have

5 that on our list to do. And that's all I have on

6 sort of the energy/building side, unless someone else

7 has something, I would go straight into the LCC.

8 MR. STARR: So the only thing I would like

9 is the question about whether you need to replace

10 those diffusers for the --

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Since -- I have that on

12 the list. So on the -- on the installation cost,

13 again, we're skimming with weight and you know,

14 there's a lot of discussion about whether that's a

15 reasonable proxy. Lewis, you said you might be

16 looking into something and --

17 MR. STARR: I'll take a look.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Charlie is, too.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's incumbent upon us to

20 make a few calls, as well.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Charlie said he

22 would look into it, too. Because he represents all
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

210

1 the contracts, so --

2 MR. STARR: Usual using RS means and how

3 you used it is probably the most important factor.

4 In other words, RS Means is probably the -- I'd say

5 the source to use, right. So in my mind is how

6 much -- how did you use this to get the numbers. And

7 so you could crosscheck it with those costs. So

8 however -- just maybe a little better explanation of

9 how that S and then Charlie, the contractor guy,

10 should have a pretty, I would think, a pretty good

11 number, too.

12 MR. TERZIGNI: I'm Mark, SMACNA.

13 A quick step back. I except over toed the

14 a section out of our duct design manual that talks a

15 lot about system effect. He is allowed to distribute

16 that to you guys. So it will give you some

17 background. There's tables in there. You can look

18 at various configurations. Actually a lot of this is

19 taken from AMTAxxx standard 210 where you can see it

20 converts everything to inches water gate as far as

21 certain configurations. So between now and then, you

22 can also kind of look at that, come up with your own
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

211

1 maybe mental average or something and I'll do my best

2 to confirm through contractor tab measurements.

3 BEGIN NOTE check gate BEGIN NOTE my one concern is on

4 some of the units, I don't know how often in those

5 types of buildings. Tab work is on the smaller size.

6 I don't know how often that is really done, but I'll

7 ask the question and see if I can get some answers.

8 You can use that in time as a guesstimate. Their

9 calculations are based on real information. I any

10 the problem you're gonna see, will is a lot of

11 variability. Is there an elbow on the unit, right

12 off the unit? Is there 50 percent of ideal duct

13 length and an elbow and what direction the elbow is,

14 inlet and outlet conditions. There's a whole range

15 of scenarios to look at. But you can still see the

16 range and how to mentally average. And I think

17 you'll -- my gut feel is you'll see that it's a

18 little higher than what was being discussed yesterday

19 as far as what was on the chart. But you can use

20 your on expertise to get an idea and I'll try to firm

21 that up for you some time between now.

22 MR. STARR: I suspect the tab guys will
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

212

1 generally have a rule on that, too. It's more of

2 where the numbers coalesce. Bob was talking about --

3 Robert was talking about .35. Tab I'm sure will have

4 a number. I think they'll start to converge is what

5 I suspect.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So the next item I

7 had was the converse curb, and I heard to try to look

8 into varying with it tonnage and to use some of the

9 contacts that D list has to get after that.

10 MR. STARR: Is that the cost of it?

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: The cost of the curb.

12 Right now, we're just using a thousand dollars, and I

13 heard that it likely varies with the capacity of the

14 equipment. BEGIN NOTE company name END NOTE.

15 With regards to the diffuser replacement,

16 Lewis, you started out saying, you know, being a

17 concern. I have a note here saying maybe you're okay

18 now but where do you sit on that?

19 A. Yeah, no, I would -- I would rather

20 have -- take a look at that and see if that's the

21 typical practice if they go in, switch it out. In

22 other words, if they put in a VAV system and drop it
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

213

1 down, do they have to go and change the diffusers,

2 too. So I know I guess Steve Taylor has provided

3 something back there for California but California is

4 kind of a special place.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, he also, Deb has the

6 same information he had at ASHRAE 90.1. So it was

7 not -- he started it in California and that's --

8 MR. STARR: Where he finishes.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. That's when he took

10 it to ash bring and that's where ash bring put the

11 singles on.

12 MR. STARR: Is that something to work on

13 right now?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: It's already in there, 2013.

15 MR. STARR: So it's requiring that if you

16 switch it up, you're going to have to switch out the

17 diffusers?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Not requiring to switch out

19 the diffusers, requiring the two stage or the VAV at

20 certain points. And so because of that, it was all

21 in his economic justification and he talked about

22 whether this is economically justified and he talked
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

214

1 about how the insulation of the system and the

2 changeout of the system would happen.

3 MR. STARR: That's my question. It's not

4 that you don't have to have a three-stage but

5 actually the design solution what stage is produced

6 and perhaps for California it is but I don't know

7 necessarily that is a design switch across the board.

8 MR. WHITWELL: You're talking about nor

9 the diffusers.

10 MR. STARR: Right. If you change down the

11 40 percent, do you need to change out all the

12 diffusers? BEGIN NOTE bra ink a typical VAV system,

13 those turn down to 30 percent.

14 MR. WHITWELL: If you don't you won't have

15 a comfort.

16 MR. STARR: No more than the building

17 we're sitting in right now, right? I mean the VAV

18 box is turned down to 30 percent. If this room was

19 unoccupied, go down to 30 percent, as well.

20 MR. WHITWELL: The dishes is the other

21 systems, the VAV, we have the higher velocity. It

22 mixes the air in a space.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

215

1 MR. STARR: Right. But you know if you

2 think about that, so when it's raining at low stage,

3 that's potentially one thing. But a lot of times

4 that's just ventilation air, too, right? You're not

5 heating or cooling. So really it's not a problem so

6 much of the air mixing. It's more, to me, you know

7 what, Steve has in this thing is probably maybe the

8 best way to do it, but I don't think that's the most

9 common solution for how it's actually designed for.

10 MR. SACHS: I want to drop in, this is

11 Harvey, and see if I can translate this. It seems to

12 me that the discussion here is between the design of

13 a system that essentially meets 90.1, which we would

14 call very good practice, versus Louis asking about

15 the standard of care or what the routine practice is

16 to minimize cost. And that's almost a policy design,

17 what our design role is here, isn't it?

18 MR. STARR: 90.1 doesn't require to have

19 the design of replacing diffusers. They are just

20 requiring three stage. Now the solution would

21 provide three-stage capacity do you need to switch

22 out the diffusers. BEGIN NOTE that is not in 90.1.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

216

1 MR. SACHS: I understand it's not in but

2 it's sort of a logical consequence when you're trying

3 to design for 90.1, 62.1 and 55.

4 MR. STARR: I would -- I would say it's

5 not because every VAV system turns down to 30

6 percent. How do they hand that will now? You go

7 into a conference room with diffusers, it's designed

8 to turn down to 30 percent which is ten percent less

9 than 40 percent. How is it all of a sudden when now

10 because it's a constant air volume system it has that

11 ability to turn down, it's okay if it's a VAV system

12 but it's not okay? I mean it's a practical design

13 that's already done. That's why I'm having a hard

14 time understanding why all of a surged, you have a

15 typical VAV system that turns down to 30 percent all

16 the time with the air flow and yet we're turning down

17 to 40 percent and all of a sudden we have to change

18 out the diffusers.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So I guess I'm trying to

20 understand, too, so we've got constant air volume

21 units. Some are being -- you're looking at replacing

22 them with stage air volume units or with VAV units,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

217

1 correct?

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So let me

3 specifically --

4 MR. WHITWELL: So the same air volume, you

5 don't have to replace the diffusers. If you're going

6 to VAV --

7 MR. STARR: It's actually down to 40

8 percent. The three stages, 166100 and 40.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: We have constant air

10 volume buildings and in the constant we're putting

11 staged air volume equipment in it where the air

12 volume doesn't go below 60 percent. At that point

13 we're saying the diffusers are fine. Once it goes

14 below 60 first that's where we're saying you have to

15 do something. And that happens at EL4 and 5 for 15

16 tons. So that -- I just want to clarify what we're

17 doing. And I hear what you're saying, Louis, is that

18 going to be a typical practice, swapping out all the

19 diffusers or are they going to use a different

20 solution.

21 MR. STARR: Right. And I'm saying there

22 are VAV buildings it will turn down to 30 percent
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

218

1 ever its flow routinely.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: This wasn't designed for

3 positive volume and then you put a VAV on it. You're

4 talking about a switching after system, a system that

5 was designed for constant volume and now you're going

6 to say you're at EL 13 or 14 and we're saying there

7 is only a system available for VAV for that. Now the

8 VAV has to replace the SAC system and you have to

9 include the cost BEGIN NOTE.

10 MR. STARR: It's the same paradigm. Just

11 because you're switching from a CAV to a VAV, it's

12 the air coming out of the diffusers that matters.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think we want to do

14 an analysis based on something that we know is not

15 the right practice.

16 MR. STARR: Right. What I would say is

17 they just check, find some, you know, check night,

18 see what the design practice are. It's something

19 LBNL should do and look. And whatever they come back

20 with that, I'm fine with.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: We'll do that. We

22 assumed the cheapest thing to do was just to replace
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

219

1 the diffuser with this self powered VAV diffuser.

2 And again we should just do a little bit more

3 thorough check to make sure that's the lowest cost

4 option. So we'll do that.

5 The next thing I had was on the

6 maintenance cost, just look into increasing filter

7 costs with vap coil size.

8 MR. SACHS: Greg?

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I thought we

11 had something approaching a consensus that it is not

12 needed?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: That it's not needed?

14 MR. SACHS: That it is likely to be small

15 compared to other thing it wasn't worth much time.

16 Wrong, I think Bob and Jill were pointing to that to

17 me.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Sorry I was writing down

19 some notes.

20 MR. WHITWELL: This is on maintenance?

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: To increase it with vap

22 evap coil size.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

220

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Forgo that?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: It does probably but I'm

3 thinking that the dollars is not enough to make a big

4 deal for you guys and what you're doing.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: All right.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's acknowledging that

7 it does in any future things you need to think about

8 that, it goes with square footage. But I will say

9 that it's probably only ten to $20 and will that

10 matter in all of this? Probably not.

11 MS. MEYERS: For this rule-making only.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. As I said, consider

13 that for next rule-making.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This does not set a

15 precedent.

16 MS. MEYERS: I will back off on this.

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: This does not set a

18 precedent.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

20 MS. MEYERS: I'll back off on it.

21 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ms. Rheem.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the repair costs,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

221

1 what I have is possibly changing the year in which

2 the repair occurs? We're doing it with ten. I was

3 hearing seven.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: And yeah. Charlie was going

5 to go back to the contractors and check into what

6 they think is noncompressor, but when -- when is more

7 of an average when the repairs are happening?

8 MR. SACHS: I can get 100,000 mile spark

9 plugs but I can't get more than a four-year

10 contactor, something's wrong, lady.

11 MR. STARR: How did you come up with ten?

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was RS means.

13 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say if

14 it's important to use RS means in some things, let's

15 just use them in all things. We can certainly look

16 at something --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: I will acknowledge there's

18 only one. RS means does include both compressor and

19 noncompressor, so we're using it for both so you

20 could potentially argue ten includes compressor

21 weighted in and their phrasing.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Compressor weighted in, I
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

222

1 can understand that. But purely, I know that this

2 other stuff is changed out Sooner than that. Like

3 you said, run time is a lot.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So what does that mean

5 then for the compressor repair? Are we okay with the

6 ten year on that?

7 MR. STARR: Didn't we just say it's an

8 average of the noncompressor and the compressor

9 seals. So you just, potentially just found out.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't know how RS means

11 that. If everything agrees we will do ten for

12 compressor and we'll see what aGus does for

13 noncompressor, then --

14 MR. STARR: I'd rather just use RS means

15 across the board, if we're gonna do it that way. But

16 I think it is worth getting ACTA'sxxx opinion,

17 regardless and make our decision once we get action

18 California's opinion.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we think a couple years

20 on either side of ten are going to make a difference?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I asked him, he said it

22 would change where the discount rate, I asked him.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

223

1 He said it could.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're annualizing over the

3 life. I guess we don't agree on the life.

4 California l.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: It is not going to be a

6 large impact. It hits all the EL's the same, so it

7 does in change the way they're separated.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: But but the compressor

9 repair does go up with efficiency, so it's what -- I

10 know. Going from ten to 12, I mean, 10 to 11 years,

11 I can't see that making a big difference but --

12 MR. STARR: I'll compromise, to be honest.

13 Whatever's in RS means, I'll go with, if that

14 includes all the way around. If they're saying

15 equipment cost is one and a half times more for a

16 slightly more efficient unit, then I'll go with that

17 if it's in RS means. But that also applies with the

18 rest of this stuff, like in terms of lifetime. You

19 see what I'm saying? In other words, if you're using

20 a standard, use the standard across all of the stuff.

21 Unless it's obviously wrong and I think we get

22 something back from Actaxxxx that says actually it's
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

224

1 two years, we should probably -- or, you know, use

2 105 years, a different range, we should take a look

3 at it. BEGIN NOTE check 105 END NOTE.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So is the group okay with RS

5 means across the board, then?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

7 MR. TERZIGNI: On the record, we are not

8 agreeing to RS means across the board.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: We will see what ACTAXXX

10 has to say and then we'll make something.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Is this something that can

12 be e-mail between sessions?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: If we get something from

14 ACTAxxx?

15 MR. THARP: What about SMACNAxxx?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: We can run one with a

17 different number of years and see what the difference

18 is.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what if we were to say

20 13 and seven for each of those two and then just run

21 the numbers, right? Because we think ten is the

22 average of both of those situations. So if we knock
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

225

1 one down three and knock the other up three, do aand

2 7 and just show the numbers would that give equal

3 comfort?

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Maybe.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm feeling uncomfortable.

6 I was feeling uncomfortable a second ago. If we're

7 acknowledging it's an average, I agree you can't just

8 change half. BEGIN NOTE.

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, we can do it.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, we already have it

11 done.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So 13 and 7 sound

13 reasonable?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: That will be fine.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So 13 years for a

17 compressor. That's kind of long.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I know, but let's see what,

19 given the sensitivity analysis.

20 MS. MEYERS: It doesn't mean we're going

21 agree with it. You're not saying you're going agree

22 that accept the results, are you?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

226

1 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to just show

2 that. We are going to see, we're talking a lot about

3 something that might not matter, I guess is what

4 we're --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Not saying we accept

6 it.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the next thing I have

8 is lifetime and I heard a lot of discomfort around

9 the values. I think where we're left is hopefully

10 getting the ARH shipment data and putting it into our

11 shipments model and doing it, recalibrate and see

12 where that, where that new value comes out at.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then I think on top of

14 that, Jill was doing the heavy lifting. She said in

15 her company they do this kind of modeling, so to the

16 extent that the manufacturers can get with an NDA or

17 however you want to do it, get a different numbers,

18 I'm okay with that, too. If you want to talk to your

19 NDA and we roll them up to what we think might be a

20 different number --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Manufacturers are always

22 looking at that, right, because replacement --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

227

1 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a big part of your

2 planning, right? I get it.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's a good way

5 to look at it, right? You're investing lots of money

6 in your planning to get the shipments forecast right

7 for your manufacturing, so I think that's a good

8 number, too.

9 MR. STARR: I think integrating that into

10 Katie's number, I think the manufacturers might be

11 optimistic.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I have an NDA with Navigant.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you have one, too. I

14 don't know how quickly these guys -- they both do it.

15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just got to beat up my

16 lawyers, which is fine. I love beating them up.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can provide it to

18 Detlef.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So we can give it to

20 Detlef, he can take the data and compile it.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then he can pass the one

22 number.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

228

1 MS. HOOTMAN: That will be good because

2 believe me, I'm like, I'm a little like his company.

3 My lawyers take another five weeks.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's the best

5 way.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: As long as we have it in

7 three so one can't tell what the other one.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Three minimum. You on

9 board with that Rusty or Dave?

10 MR. THARP: I'm sorry.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: We were talking about

12 lawyers over here.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because we have two that

14 are --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Rife something that would

16 show an assumption.

17 MR. THARP: And this is the 13-7?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. We're good on that.

19 The lifetime, your internal planning processes, you

20 have some lifetime assumptions --

21 MR. THARP: Right.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: If we can get at least
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

229

1 three years, we can get it to Detlef, he can create

2 an industry average.

3 MR. THARP: Yes, we can provide an

4 internal lifetime target, which is less than any of

5 the numbers I've seen here.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

7 MR. WHITWELL: So it's going to be, it

8 will show what we use for our planning purposes.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

10 MR. THARP: We plan for our warranty plus

11 one day. Just kidding. Just kidding. Care we plan

12 ours to last one day longer than theirs.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would think we would get

14 up to five days, there are five manufacturers.

15 That's good. We've got a plan there.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: And then the last thing I

17 have is checking the discount rates. You actually

18 pointed out that he saw a discrepancy with other

19 product rule-making, so I'll definitely look into

20 that and see what's going on. Definitely should

21 be -- maybe not exact but certainly not that

22 different.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

230

1 MR. THARP: A few tenths don't -- I can

2 understand tenths but not a couple points.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: No.

4 Oh, and then -- one more thing, which is

5 that rule update, the base case efficiency

6 distributions once we get the market share data BEGIN

7 NOTE.

8 MR. HUNT: So we have 19. I think that's

9 a good list? Anybody else? For me, that's a good

10 list.xx.

11 MR. WHITWELL: I have a question. So this

12 is Bob from Carrier. Greg, question for you, on the

13 payback numbers you show, for instance on the 15-ton,

14 I went the look in the NOPR to see what the numbers

15 were in there, and I didn't see a simple payback, I

16 saw a median payback. I just wanted to know how I

17 compare these to what's in the NOPR.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So the simple --

19 the simple payback we are not --

20 MS. MEYERS: It's not so simple.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Were not provided in the

22 NOPR. John -- John has noted this and we are
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

231

1 providing simple paybacks in all our rule-makings.

2 As a means for everyone to sort of get a handle on,

3 you know, sort of a simple way to measure the cost

4 effectiveness of the efficiency level. So, again,

5 that 4.4, 5.7, 5.5 and 4.5 you will not find anywhere

6 in the NOPR or TSD because we didn't provide the

7 paybacks in that way. We provided them as medium

8 paybacks from the distribution of our results.

9 So these simple paybacks are simply the cost

10 effectiveness, the payback period of each efficiency

11 level relative to the baseline. There it's deprived

12 the first year operating cost savings and the total

13 installed cost. So total installed cost increase.

14 So you should be able to just derive that from

15 looking at those numbers.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So add the 14.078 and the

17 2508 and divide it into --

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: The difference between

19 the total installed cost divided by the change in the

20 first year operating cost.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: That should give you --
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

232

1 that better give you 4.4, so --

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this was made so you

3 could actually read the table across and down.

4 Previously, you know, because it looked at the

5 distribution, you'd do the math and say the numbers

6 don't add up. So now the tables stand on their own

7 merit.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: It used to be we had the

9 information in the bottom table combined with the top

10 so it led some people to be confused about how

11 numbers were determined. So everything in the top

12 table is, again, the costs and -- the costs for that

13 particular efficiency level. So that you can easily

14 derive then the simple payback for that efficiency

15 level.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: And that would be the

17 material that you guys put on your web site, right,

18 when you -- when you showed the cost effectiveness

19 of, you know, the rebel unit, for example, and said

20 there's a pay back of two years or three years,

21 whatever it says. That's the number up there. It's

22 not some distribution of people, winners and losers,
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

233

1 whatnot.

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Greg, for me,

3 the sort of philosophical gag is that we talk about

4 paypack as a really primitive, simple consumer

5 friendly measure. And when you -- in that's what's

6 simple payback is to me, is numerator over

7 denominator. But then when you say median payback,

8 that really does feel like decorating the pig because

9 now I'm put ago distribution on top of a number and I

10 just don't know how the median differs from the mean

11 on your distribution. It just seems to me to be --

12 MS. COUGHLIN: The difference -- there's

13 more to it than that.

14 MR. SACHS: There's more to it than it

15 needs to be.

16 MS. COUGHLIN: No because then the median

17 is going to be going to be less BEGIN NOTE.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: The median payback is from

19 the LCC distribution and the LCC calculation includes

20 discount, which is how it is a different number than

21 the payback. So they're just different

22 representations.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

234

1 MR. SACHS: But payback by definition to

2 meen my old world is nondiscounted.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: That is nondiscounted.

4 MS. COUGHLIN: So the payback is

5 nondiscounted.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the median payback

7 period that we were reporting before okay was

8 calculated for every iteration of our Monte Carlo

9 simulation. So for every ten,000 -- every iteration

10 of those 10,000 iterations we have calculated payback

11 period nor that particular run and then create a

12 distribution and take the median value from it.

13 That's what we were doing Mr..

14 MR. SACHS: Let me see if I can rephrase

15 this.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

17 MR. SACHS: I'm thinking about the

18 argument intent of terms BEGIN NOTE, it seems like to

19 me, as I said at beginning, philosophical, it seems

20 to be a bit abusive of the concept of simple payback.

21 It confused me more than anything else. I can follow

22 your explanation, but I'm not sure it's useful to me.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

235

1 MR. ROSENQUIST: It seemed to confuse

2 other people, too so, that's why we moved to this new

3 way of doing things.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: More importantly, I didn't

5 like it.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. John didn't like

7 it so we changed.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I actually understood the

9 table, I just didn't like the way it was calculated.

10 MR. HUNT: I'm going to assume that this

11 table is going to change, right, next time. You're

12 going to redo the analysis.

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, yes, we -- we have

14 our charge.

15 MR. HUNT: Okay. But should I be

16 thinking, as I look at these numbers more, is it ten

17 percent change, don't even go there? Don't even try

18 to guess, okay.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean we are going up,

20 we're going down, we are going sideways.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I don't want Paul

22 pointing anything at this point.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

236

1 MR. HUNT: Maybe we should have a

2 comparison for next time so some of us locked into

3 certain numbers.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do you want to see, from

5 Bob's point of view, do you like to see incremental

6 updates from deck to deck or do you want to go back

7 to the NOPR? What's more -- what's easier for you?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: These ones in-between since

9 we've change sod much, I don't know that it makes a

10 whole lot of difference.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: You don't like the interim

12 stuff so back to the NOPR.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: NOPR.

14 MR. STARR: I have a question now that

15 your table is populated so why did those numbers go

16 down that? Is that the fan that caused that to go

17 down? I understand why the upper left went up.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: There are certainly a lot

19 more lifetime operating cost because of the increase

20 in energy consumption.

21 MR. STARR: Because of the fan, right?

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Because the fan and the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

237

1 additional heating load, too, because of the fan.

2 MR. STARR: The higher EL levels went up

3 because they had overpredicted energy and those

4 weren't realistic coil type configurations, right,

5 like EL4 and 5?

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember EL4

7 and 5 also include the diffuser replacements.

8 MR. STARR: That's right.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Next time.

10 MR. STARR: Okay. I just want to get a

11 general kind of a hundred thousand foot view of what

12 changed.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the last issue was,

14 again going back to the dual duct units that we

15 talked about a little bit yesterday, and I don't --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's just clarify because I

17 think some people were talking about there are two

18 different things in the industry that are called dual

19 duct, one is ducting for heating, ducting for cooling

20 and they're separate. This is a unit that it is

21 outdoor air, its condenser air is ducted outside

22 because this unit is placed inside, internal to a
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

238

1 building. So the condenser air is ducted out. It

2 also has ductwork attached to it for supply of

3 cooling into the building. One of the ways that you

4 might have that is literally in one of my

5 manufacturing plants, I have a little Trane room, you

6 know this, is a 40-foot story building inside so that

7 little Trane room is, you know, air conditioned, it's

8 got a little tiny unit on it and you duct that air

9 out or parking garages I've seen have stuff like

10 that.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Or a unit that fits in a

12 ceiling.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yet.

14 MR. SACHS: This is small bore specialty

15 niche equipment.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yep.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: We might take a standard

19 unit and do it to it, but the application is pretty,

20 pretty slender.

21 MR. SACHS: And my sense is that this

22 particular subspecies of dual duct is small in
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

239

1 number, small in capacity, small in natural energy

2 potential. I don't care about it.

3 MR. STARR: Why was it brought up?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because to go into those

5 higher EL levels that that static performance of

6 those condenser fans can't push it. And now you're

7 gonna have to go up to much bicker condenser fans and

8 you can't the static and can't fit it.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So there might be a new

10 capacity for a new product class? END NOTE.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the proposal, what we

12 wrote in the NOPR and what we talked about a little

13 yesterday was, yeah, separate product class, you

14 know, well defined probably, you know, that would be

15 not part of what we're negotiating here and may be

16 held to the standard they're being held to today.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Which is the same as --

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Same as what they've

19 been -- you're gonna test the way they've been

20 testing.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So in a way, it's kind of

22 like Ptacks with the sleeve kind of thing, right?
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

240

1 Okay, they're maxed out by the sleeve, you know, and

2 that whole thing. That would be kind of the path

3 would it -- it would diverge down the path? Okay.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And so for this,

5 we would just leave it.

6 MR. AMRANE: Hold on a minute. From HR.

7 Er it would be a different metric than EER?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll think about that.

9 But you get the concept?

10 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

11 MR. STARR: Is this a class of equipment

12 somewhere defined? Is it in the NOPR or somewhere, I

13 could do some more looking into it.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's why I said we'd

15 have to have a real good definition. I don't think

16 we have actually defined it fully and we'd want to do

17 that. But the way Jill described the equipment,

18 that's what we're talking about, would be a way to

19 describe that.

20 MR. STARR: So you're calling that dual

21 duct.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's what I'm calling.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

241

1 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the old traditional

2 heat cooling and heating ducts.

3 MR. SACHS: For one thing, it's not an

4 RTU, it's internal to the building. It's

5 nonweatherized.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we might be -- the

7 industry tends to use your weather iced cabinet for

8 this. In other words we don't create another whole

9 separate cabinet and design and everything so it's

10 commonly used with a weatherized kind of design but

11 it's brought inside.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, some are -- some are

13 completely different cabinets, right?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Well, yeah, some

15 manufacturing yes.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: You weren't here but can

17 HRI propose this definition of what we're talking

18 about? Because I know you have submitted --

19 MR. AMRANE: Right. I think we can work

20 with the manufacturers. Why.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why don't we task you guys

22 with that. As part of this.
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

242

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Because would you write that

2 in here that this is then gonna again separated.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and as part of

4 that, I'd like to have a sense of the census, are we

5 talking about 10,000 units a year, 100,000 units a

6 year, a million units a year? And --

7 MR. WHITWELL: Keep going down.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Keep going down.

9 MR. SACHS: What I'm saying, I'd like to

10 say, I see this as being self limited but I'm not

11 likely to have a great market push to expand these

12 numbers enormously. I want to be able to make the

13 case that this is de minimis, we don't need to worry

14 about it because it's not important in a national

15 energy sense.

16 So I'd like to have a sense of --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's why the definition

18 will be point so it won't be BEGIN NOTE that's why --

19 agreed. I think we all agree on that.

20 MR. SACHS: I would like to have a sense

21 whether this is stuff that's always less than ten

22 tons, always less than five tons as part of the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

243

1 description of that capacity. Thank you.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So HRI will organize that.

3 MR. SACHS: We're happy to look it and see

4 if we understand it.

5 MR. AMRANE: Sure.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's all. I don't know

7 if anyone else has any thoughts.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Can we get an e-mailed copy

10 of this stuff?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we have this stuff

12 mailed?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: It should be going in the

14 docket if not.

15 MR. WHITWELL: It wasn't last night.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: On the way home I asked

17 them to do it. They're probably working on it.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is more a question

19 for Detlef and James and Alison and Katie, in terms

20 of what analyses can you expect to see results for

21 next week. And just to condition your expectations,

22 I guess, or -- so are we sort of in agreement about
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

244

1 what we'll do? I guess what we think we're doing is

2 showing you the 30-ton engineering analysis results.

3 That's what Detlef and James will be providing. And

4 what we're going to be doing on our side then is

5 providing updated -- updated LCC results for seven

6 and a half ton and 15 ton. We won't able to do it,

7 most likely, for 30 tons because we won't be getting

8 the data soon enough. Then we'll be going over the

9 shipments modeling and some of the analysis we have

10 there. And I think that's about it, right?

11 MS. COUGHLIN: And the energy use.

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: When I say LCC, energy

13 use, as well. So just so you -- so everyone knows

14 what to expect next week.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: It's a minor logistical

16 thing, but Greg you're saying you need the shipment

17 data. How much time do you need with that in order

18 to get --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Listen, if we don't get

20 any shipments data we're going to present our

21 shipments model anyway to show you at least the

22 method of that we're going to be doing because we
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

245

1 feel that is important.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: We would need it tomorrow.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really, to really

4 incorporate it.

5 MR. MISLAK: We can have a call tomorrow

6 and discuss it maybe.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll have to have one more

8 call.

9 MR. BANTLE: Well, I guess, do we have any

10 public comments?

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Emily, want to open up the

12 mics for us and see if there's anyone?

13 I did get a message from Michael that he

14 had to drop off so he is no longer on the webinar.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: The last thing about the

16 temp procedure. That was brought up. I spoke to

17 Ashley and she said she had sent some comment back.

18 MR. AMRANE: She did?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: On the 340, 360. She

20 encourages whoever to contact her about BEGIN NOTE

21 END NOTE so --

22 MR. BANTLE: Not hearing anything on the
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

246

1 webinar, I think we're done nor the day. Thank you,

2 everybody. We'll see you next week.

3 (Thereupon, the meeting was adjourned at

4 1:56 p.m.)

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Meeting May 12, 2015 

247 

1 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

2 

3 I, Donna Ann Peterson, the officer 

4 before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do 

5 hereby certify that the foregoing transcript is a 

6 true and correct record of the proceedings; that said 

7 proceedings were taken by me stenographically and 

8 therefore reduced to typewriting under my 

9 supervision; and that I am neither counsel for, 

10 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

11 case and have no interest, financial or otherwise, in 

12 its outcome. 

13 

14 

15 

16 Donna A. Peterson 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 

202-220-4158 www .hendersonlegalservices. cmn 
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

1

A

a-- 58:7

a.75 29:3

a.m 1:9

aand 225:1

aback 198:9

ability 196:8

216:11

able 14:16

21:17 45:11

51:8,9 78:1

81:5 100:6

108:22

169:10,11

183:1 231:14

242:12 244:6

above 192:14

absent 8:16

absolutely

55:4 199:4

abstained

71:16

abstaining

71:12

abusive

234:20

AC 170:17

186:18 189:2

189:3 208:1

208:5

accept 225:22

226:5

accommodate

85:3 86:19

99:8 128:12

according

15:1 28:16

66:11

accordingly

82:2

account 174:1

ACEEE55:18

achieve 83:22

115:6 120:15

acidic 187:7

187:10

acknowledge

221:17

acknowledg...

220:6 225:7

across 15:8

24:20 51:16

52:22 53:1

196:11 214:7

222:15

223:20 224:5

224:8 232:3

ACTA'sxxx

222:16

ACTAxxx

224:9,14

Actaxxxx

223:22

action 222:17

activity 11:11

12:6 13:7

73:14

actual 13:18

24:14 33:19

34:1 58:3

93:16 119:14

119:18 150:7

156:5 182:17

actually 15:14

15:15 17:21

22:21 28:9

28:18 31:14

31:22 36:12

36:17,20

37:4,5,15

40:13,18

41:19 42:6

46:18 52:13

55:11 56:12

68:11 76:18

78:16,19

87:7 91:18

118:4,6

119:4 122:21

123:2 124:16

126:6 134:2

135:16 137:2

137:10

139:14

147:12

152:11

153:10 157:5

164:12

166:14

169:22 171:1

171:14

174:21

175:10

210:18 214:5

215:9 217:7

223:22

229:17 232:3

235:8 240:16

Adam 2:7

179:16

add 29:13

78:14 88:3

104:6 113:4

113:5 127:15

231:16 232:6

added 12:7

14:5 16:19

29:8 208:16

addendum

61:7,20

63:14 64:6,7

64:10,11,12

64:12,18

68:3 74:9

76:11 79:8

80:6 83:5

addendums

76:15

adding 128:11

179:19

addition 32:14

additional

11:17 12:15

29:14 142:22

143:3 174:3

208:5 237:1

address 43:10

180:21 209:4

addresses

27:19

addressing

179:17

adds 121:2

adequate 87:9

adjourned

246:3

adjust 30:20

38:15

admittedly

153:1 200:21

adopt 60:22

62:1,7 64:21

66:4,9,10

78:10,12

79:22 80:21

81:4

adopted 21:11

61:7,16 64:4

64:14,18,19

65:18 68:15

71:20 72:18

75:21 77:13

77:15 79:1

adopting

61:13 63:1

69:12 79:12

80:19 81:20

adoption

20:21 22:9

67:22 70:2

adopts 65:5

78:21

advantage

46:18

adverse 58:22

59:6 108:7

advocate

47:19

AE31:6

AEO14:11,18

16:12,14,19

17:22 18:5

18:21 19:5

27:8 31:6

33:11,14

133:20 134:8

139:10

AEO's 139:11

139:13

affect 153:17

affected 35:19

180:11

affects 55:21

156:2

after 42:17

65:4 72:13

84:9 103:9

166:1,15

167:22

172:15 209:3

212:9 218:4

aftermath 56:9

afternoon

179:2

again 8:12

11:2 13:5

18:5,16,19

19:22 21:16

23:22 25:1

26:19 27:5

29:10 34:16

34:17 36:6

37:18 48:12

49:2 51:2

55:16 56:7

58:14,17,20

63:9 85:2,4

87:20 90:12

91:5,16

92:19 93:14
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

2

94:5,17,18

95:17,22

96:1,2 97:8

98:10,12

99:17,22

100:1 103:21

104:16

108:11 113:6

115:5 128:18

128:21

130:19 132:5

132:18

134:16 135:1

135:2 136:1

138:9 139:16

141:21 144:4

145:14 146:4

146:11 147:6

147:20 150:3

154:17

155:14

158:13 161:6

169:2,21

170:9 171:18

172:20

175:13

177:15

188:13

191:19

200:18

208:17

209:13 219:2

231:4 232:12

237:14 242:2

against 83:5

101:19

age 153:4

agency's 58:1

aggressive

20:2

ago 32:2 49:17

62:3 65:14

99:11 113:4

115:15 161:9

167:22

192:21 225:6

233:9

agree 42:21

50:12 74:21

75:6 108:1

132:10

133:14

146:16

152:15

155:12

156:12

161:21

163:19

167:12,13,16

176:6 177:12

223:3 225:7

225:21,21

242:19

agreed 72:6

109:13,17,19

110:2 242:19

agreeing

224:8

agreement

55:7 62:6

243:22

agrees 222:11

aGus 222:12

ahead 128:7

137:6 188:12

ahold 34:18

AHRI 4:21

64:22 76:2

77:13,22

160:6,9

172:12

ain't 42:11,13

125:21

air 1:3 11:4,18

12:1,8,9,9,13

13:2,16,16

24:13,14

27:6 34:1,2

36:8 84:2,3,4

84:6,12,12

84:14,14,15

85:7,12,12

85:15,17,20

86:1,5,18

87:3 88:9,9

88:10 94:9,9

94:11,12,13

94:15 96:13

96:14,18,18

96:21,22

97:16,17

98:2,6,15,16

98:19,21

99:5 100:2,3

100:6,6,13

102:9,9

109:1 112:22

113:1,5,7,8

114:8,13,13

114:15,16,20

115:1 116:1

121:6 123:4

123:8,10,11

123:13,14

124:19 125:2

125:3,8,9,10

125:12,13

134:18

137:14 147:5

147:12,13

160:12 172:3

172:3,9

190:5,9

193:8,10

196:9 200:13

203:19 206:5

214:22 215:4

215:6 216:10

216:16,20,22

217:4,9,11

217:11

218:12

237:21,21

238:1,7,8

air-moving

49:22

Al 93:17,17

align 24:17

Alison 3:8 94:1

149:6 177:2

243:19

all 8:13 9:15

16:2 17:22

19:18 21:19

23:3,8,11

24:20 25:14

26:20 29:9

32:9 33:14

33:15 40:20

42:13 43:4

47:1 51:16

53:1 55:14

56:17,21

58:14,17

61:18 63:5

63:10 66:3,8

66:21 67:19

67:21 69:15

71:2,7,15

72:4 75:9

76:15 77:1

78:4 80:5

84:9,11

87:15 89:5,9

91:18 101:8

101:9 102:11

105:5 106:17

108:18

110:12,16

113:19

119:20

120:10 122:3

123:16 127:6

130:15,16

131:9,13,17

132:10 133:9

136:16

138:10

145:18

147:18,22

149:21,21,21

152:14,22

153:13 154:2

154:10,11

157:17

159:11 160:3

165:8 166:19

166:21

171:11,21

172:6 173:15

174:9,20,20

175:2,22

176:3,8

178:10,14

179:4,7

183:5 184:7

190:12,22

191:14

195:22 197:4

200:14,15

203:21 207:8

208:1 209:5

209:22

213:20

214:11 216:9

216:14,15,17

217:18 220:5

220:10

221:15 223:6

223:14,20

231:1 242:19

243:6

Allied 5:1

allow 122:22

124:5

allowed

210:15

allows 73:6

alluding 95:6

almost 17:13
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

3

40:17 59:20

71:20 102:13

139:19

144:22 146:3

215:16

along 15:6

62:6 71:7

75:9 98:11

203:20 205:2

already 25:22

61:2 68:6,15

68:15 72:1

73:10 85:1

101:4 128:8

162:22

203:21

213:14

216:13

225:10

also 3:16 6:12

8:8 13:10

17:19 22:5,6

27:13,15

30:20 31:19

43:10 58:2

58:18 59:5

70:1 86:20

88:5,16 92:5

122:22 126:4

134:1,22

135:5,7

138:12 151:6

156:1,3,6,8

156:12 159:1

162:19 175:8

178:4 182:20

196:6 203:6

203:10,12

205:8 210:22

213:5 223:17

237:7 238:2

alternate

179:22

alternative

53:19 121:5

alternatives

121:1,4

although 43:8

153:12

always 4:3

59:7 75:1

145:1 181:21

226:21

242:21,22

am 52:13

113:18 133:1

136:4 153:12

178:1 247:9

amend 78:13

78:14

amendment

78:12

among 203:17

amongst

80:12

amount 9:21

36:19 46:22

54:14 57:2,4

80:20 108:22

161:17

175:18 177:7

185:13

amounts

109:20

amPoussaint

181:3

AMRANE64:4

76:2 79:10

116:22 117:5

156:13,17

240:6,10

241:19 243:5

245:18

AMTAxxx

210:19

analyses

102:15 180:1

243:20

analysis 4:9

8:19 10:6,17

10:21 13:7

20:19 27:14

34:6 36:14

37:8 40:5

46:12 56:8

59:11,19

62:10,12

63:10 66:4

71:1 72:13

83:14,20

84:9 89:21

90:4,5,12,18

91:2,10 92:3

92:6 95:6,8

96:5 102:3,5

102:21

104:19

105:11

106:15 108:6

109:12,18

116:6,6,9

117:16 118:5

118:13

119:10

120:10 121:9

123:6 125:7

131:15 137:9

137:19

139:12,15,21

143:2 144:7

145:8 146:3

147:18

149:21

150:11,21

151:1,10

154:10 155:1

155:5 156:22

157:15 158:7

158:9 164:1

169:21 170:2

170:11

172:17

173:20 174:1

175:19

179:12 190:6

195:21 196:2

196:3,18

200:20

201:18 202:3

202:13 203:7

206:2 208:10

208:11

218:14

225:19

235:12 244:2

244:9

analyst 166:5

analyzed

84:10 138:4

analyzing

102:20 172:2

Andrew 2:8

5:3 110:15

Anecdotally

152:16

Ann247:3

annual 34:3

annualizing

223:2

anomalous

43:16

anomaly 51:6

another 15:17

47:8 53:21

54:1 66:9

70:21 97:10

117:10

150:17

155:16 157:5

160:5 162:21

163:11 164:8

186:20 205:2

206:2 228:3

241:8

answer 55:17

64:9 75:15

76:3 77:4,4

132:6 146:22

160:18 166:8

answers 211:7

Anybody

230:9

anymore 89:16

107:17 185:3

201:10

anyone 162:5

177:17

189:17 243:7

245:12

anything 21:12

48:13 49:11

49:12 62:9

66:20 71:22

83:1,2,3

88:13 109:9

127:9 137:7

145:5 146:10

169:4,22

185:2 186:9

193:17

197:19

198:10 199:8

234:21

235:22

245:22

anyway 8:16

8:18 86:12

87:14 130:17

153:18

155:18 173:7

244:21

anywhere 99:3

231:5

AO31:6

apart 163:12

163:13

apologize 8:4

8:13 173:7,7

apparently

65:16
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

appendix 77:9

Appliance 5:3

application

49:1 238:19

applications

192:8

applied 24:1

37:22 84:11

97:7 98:1

137:15 149:9

149:20,22

192:17,20

194:20

applies 46:13

129:10

132:13

223:17

apply 24:8

97:22 137:13

181:3,21

187:18

applying 84:3

84:5 131:8

150:3

appreciably

173:22

appreciate

62:21

approach

53:20 89:17

122:9,20

123:15

194:10

approaching

152:14

219:11

appropriate

108:16

147:19

196:19

approximately

127:8

April 86:18

AQE181:2,3

area 127:19

132:19

142:12

areas 142:10

191:19

aren't 63:4

110:5 145:17

185:21

argue 19:7

38:6 101:19

221:20

arguing 22:15

133:19

argument

133:5 234:18

ARH226:10

around 4:6,10

4:11 49:11

65:16,20

91:4 167:9

167:10

195:21,22

223:14 226:8

array 18:11

ash 213:10,10

Ashley245:17

ASHRAE7:2

8:17 64:14

64:22 75:22

155:4 160:22

161:21 204:6

204:14 213:6

ASHRAExxx...

94:6

ask 16:10 18:2

31:7 48:5

70:22 77:18

105:20 176:5

205:8 207:17

207:18 211:7

asked 8:8 67:6

77:21 222:21

222:22

243:16

asking 58:6

105:2 124:12

198:9 215:14

aspect 22:20

46:11

aspects 23:5

203:5

ASRAC1:1

assess 170:5

assessment

206:17

assign 24:18

assigned 29:3

associated

11:14 13:19

24:12 25:16

128:19 150:9

200:22 203:5

assume 20:18

21:2 78:4

92:11 100:17

140:2 151:2

153:18

154:13 189:5

235:10

assumed 15:2

139:19 157:4

218:22

assumes

118:20

assuming

17:12 21:10

22:20 62:5

66:22 68:14

114:21 117:1

117:12,15

131:21

133:12

139:18,22

140:3 144:8

169:10 172:4

assumption

22:18 82:18

85:15 91:13

92:1 100:3

125:3,10,16

128:18 132:9

158:14

228:16

assumptions

26:9 60:6

66:22 78:2

168:16 179:5

203:22

228:20

assurance

81:2,8,18

attached 12:16

12:19 238:2

attendance

4:6,9

attributing

138:17

augment

17:13

availability 7:8

7:14

available

54:16 207:20

218:7

avarice 112:9

average 18:10

18:12 20:4

25:18 34:3

48:5 54:6

89:6 107:9

107:15

115:14

135:18 150:1

159:7 170:3

173:11 211:1

211:16 221:7

222:8 224:22

225:7 229:2

averaging

115:12

146:18

avoid 12:2

177:20,21

awaiting

151:20

aware 74:6

Awareness

5:4

away 76:14

159:13

165:17 185:2

axis 15:19

B

B 189:14

BABA172:5

back 6:3 29:21

36:17 43:5

44:5 46:20

49:15,16

58:13 59:5

60:7 66:12

67:9 68:18

70:19 71:19

72:10 75:7

80:14 105:10

111:11,12

112:20

114:18 115:5

124:6,22

126:14

136:11

138:13 147:9

147:10

152:13

153:22

154:10 165:4

165:6 171:3

171:12,16

176:9 177:21

177:22 179:2

191:6 192:20

201:22

202:20

205:11 208:3

208:20
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

210:13 213:3

218:19

220:16,20

221:5 223:22

232:20 236:6

236:12

237:14

245:17

background

210:17

backs 190:4

bad 42:2,8

91:13 136:7

baked 21:6

balance

153:15

Bantle 2:2 4:2

4:3,12 5:15

5:20 57:16

83:10 178:17

178:20 179:1

187:16,20

188:2 245:9

245:22

Barkas 5:8

barometric

62:14,16

base 14:13

18:8 20:8

31:16 33:12

35:20 39:4

39:21 92:4

94:3 115:10

142:20

156:20

157:12 158:1

158:10

171:18,20

188:9 230:5

base-case

90:9

based 7:2,3,7

7:9,13 9:10

28:14 31:15

47:13 54:16

58:17 63:7

68:14 70:4

71:22 74:14

95:12 96:15

98:8 109:3

109:18

115:12

119:14,15,17

119:20 122:7

122:16 127:1

128:20

134:19,21

150:22

151:11 188:7

202:9 211:9

218:14

baseline 35:16

35:21 94:12

94:14 96:20

102:11

103:19

118:12 139:4

172:5,9

173:14

231:11

basic 174:5

basically 17:9

25:13 47:18

56:8 92:1

125:11

133:21 148:5

150:14

151:15 152:7

152:9 168:6

172:11

basing 69:15

116:12

139:16

163:22

basis 16:4

44:22 66:3

86:13 87:18

95:9 96:5

129:18

183:16

187:13

197:21

bathtub 145:9

Battaglia 2:3

5:9,9 6:21,22

7:7

bearings

149:10 154:2

beat 227:15

beating 227:16

beats 162:8

becoming

25:19

before 6:2,9

9:1 21:17

51:9 59:5,6

59:21,22

60:5 76:5

119:14 145:3

149:19

153:10

156:21,22

157:3 176:10

179:2 191:17

199:14 201:3

234:7 247:4

BEGIN 6:16

7:4 9:6,7

11:16 13:16

14:9 20:14

23:8,12

24:22 29:5,5

31:18 41:6

42:4,7 44:9,9

46:14 50:7

53:14 54:16

54:17 61:16

66:21 67:19

67:19 68:4,4

72:1 76:6

80:21 83:3

84:21 86:14

90:7,7 94:1

95:19,20,21

97:3,3,19

98:19 100:18

103:1,3

112:2 120:3

120:3,10,11

122:2 123:16

123:16

146:11,11

147:9 155:4

155:7 157:16

161:16

162:14 169:7

171:17,17

173:1 174:15

175:8,19,19

186:10 193:1

193:1 206:3

206:3 208:6

208:6,10

211:3,3

212:14

214:12

215:22 218:9

224:3 225:8

230:6 233:17

234:18

242:18

245:20

beginning

154:3 234:19

begins 85:12

behalf 205:9

behind 41:16

being 20:10

24:1 50:13

60:8 65:16

65:19 90:6

143:10 161:9

174:13,14

177:8 186:8

211:18

212:16

216:21

239:16

242:10

believe 4:7

6:17 62:14

64:4 78:3

100:12 116:3

171:13

206:16 228:2

below 85:13

86:18 87:16

98:6 100:2

125:9 181:18

181:19

182:12

217:12,14

benefiting

174:21

Berkeley

35:11

best 10:1

80:11,11

164:22

179:10 211:1

215:8 228:4

better 21:5

33:18 38:22

47:10 51:19

70:1 82:11

87:22 111:15

111:16 133:2

149:14 153:9

153:9 164:16

166:10 190:8

192:7,12

210:8 232:1

between 8:19

8:20 17:14

36:7 37:21

38:20 39:21

42:11 52:1

54:6 86:21

100:9,12

105:8,9
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

114:12 120:5

120:13 133:6

135:4 153:11

156:14 171:4

185:11 189:3

191:21 198:5

210:21

211:21

215:12

224:12

231:18

bicker 239:7

big 7:18 21:9

23:7 35:2,19

41:22 42:13

45:7 81:10

92:10 100:9

156:19

169:15

195:12,15

199:5 202:15

202:16,16

209:1 220:3

223:11 227:1

big-box

193:11 197:9

bigger 41:6

56:1 126:5

129:11

142:22

197:21 201:9

biggest 28:21

197:18

billion 192:21

bins 208:22

bird 185:8

birds 185:6

bit 8:14 15:15

21:14 26:15

26:18 36:4

36:12 42:6

46:19 52:4

60:8 80:3,13

83:12 92:11

124:4,4

131:15,16

136:6 145:21

159:4 167:6

175:3,8,21

177:7 179:12

193:6 219:2

234:20

237:15

BLAST29:2,18

29:21

board 214:7

222:15 224:5

224:8 228:9

Bob 4:19 6:3

39:14 100:14

112:18 129:2

181:6 187:21

212:2 219:16

230:12

Bob's 236:5

boilerplate

95:5

book 110:7

boom 167:22

booms 17:17

border 193:15

bore 238:14

both 32:22

34:9 39:8,10

39:11 102:7

138:5 221:18

221:19

224:22

227:14

bothered

189:8

bottom 15:7

135:14

173:10 232:9

bought 89:15

104:18

Boulevard 1:8

bound 55:2

box 86:3 98:15

98:22 100:11

106:21 135:3

198:20 199:5

199:18

201:17

214:18

boxes 87:13

99:2 125:1

bra 214:12

Brainstorm

57:10

break 57:13,14

57:18 86:21

124:5 167:3

173:16 176:4

176:10

178:22

breakage

133:7

breaks 201:8

breathing

56:19

briefly 10:11

bring 86:18

124:20

213:10,10

bringing 62:21

164:3

broad 159:15

broader 49:5

127:20 133:8

brought 7:22

90:13 181:6

181:6 198:11

239:3 241:11

245:16

Btu's 40:16

bucks 136:5

build 11:9

22:22 96:19

168:19

building 11:1

11:8,11,15

11:21 12:4,6

12:6,8 13:1,5

13:7,7,11,12

14:4,17 17:4

18:8,17 19:9

20:17,20

21:15 22:22

24:11,18

25:12,20

26:12 27:5

27:12,17,21

28:1,2,3,21

29:3,12 30:3

33:22 46:12

52:17 53:2

84:18 87:15

94:11,14

95:7,12,17

96:4,18,21

96:22 97:2,2

97:3,6,6,14

97:15 98:2,3

100:4 101:7

123:1,8,9,11

123:14

124:18

125:10,13

134:19

137:14

195:21

208:10,15

214:16 238:1

238:3,6

241:4

buildings 11:5

12:15,20

13:14 15:1

17:10,11

24:15,18,20

24:22 25:12

25:14,15

26:7 27:11

27:15 29:9

32:2 84:4,6

84:11,15

88:12 94:9

94:10,15

97:16,16,17

97:19 99:19

101:17 112:1

123:6,6

132:16,21

172:3,4,6,10

196:8 202:16

208:16 211:5

217:10,22

buildup

116:18

built 22:22

137:21

bumping

175:13

bunch 23:5

125:1 159:7

204:8

burnout 165:4

busts 17:17

buy 86:10

87:14 121:16

153:20

buyer 51:19

buying170:5

BX 142:19

C

C 2:1 3:1 4:1

C.F.R 64:11

68:13 77:11

77:20 79:12

CA 96:17

cabinet 191:22

191:22

192:10,10

193:16,16

195:4 201:8

241:7,9

cabinets

241:13
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

calculate

73:20

calculated

12:17 175:2

234:8,10

235:9

calculating

35:9 166:12

calculation

29:6 35:1

49:6 53:20

54:5 95:14

144:10

233:19

calculations

10:10 28:9

28:14 95:15

211:9

calibrate

158:20

calibrating

151:22

calibration

156:2 157:9

California 5:7

14:1 41:19

126:6,9

136:16,19

170:19

203:13

204:14 213:3

213:3,7

214:6 223:4

California's

222:18

call 52:17

92:21 94:3

105:19 118:5

128:9 133:6

152:6 155:6

164:12

171:18

191:15,21

192:15

208:12

215:14 245:5

245:8

called 135:1

136:13

237:18

calling 80:6

240:20,22

calls 124:5

165:13

209:20

came 14:11

58:5 127:13

145:15

168:12

191:19

cancels 23:9

capacities

34:9 190:12

191:22

198:19

capacity 12:14

53:3 54:15

132:8 133:3

199:18

201:18

212:13

215:21 239:1

239:10 243:1

capital 170:3

capture 96:9

captured

101:11 140:7

captures

140:4

capturing 44:7

55:22 92:3

car 163:10,12

165:17

carbon 165:8

care 12:5

84:16 215:15

229:11 239:2

careful 23:10

50:7

Carlo 95:10,11

234:8

Carrier 4:19

6:3 39:14

129:2 230:12

carry 123:3

case 23:1

33:12 35:20

51:20 53:2

53:15 55:11

92:4 94:3

102:17 113:4

117:6,8

143:3 156:21

157:12 158:1

171:18

186:17 188:9

200:1 230:5

242:13

247:11

cases 92:5

casing 190:17

199:21 200:2

200:9

casings 113:7

catalogue 87:6

categories

14:2,5,9,17

14:21 15:3

18:11 24:19

25:21 192:8

200:4 202:6

203:21

category 12:22

16:18 17:19

18:14,16

20:10 24:7

24:20 26:1,2

26:12 197:13

197:13,19

201:22

caused 236:16

CAV33:22

97:2,6

115:15 117:2

120:5,6

122:1 123:4

123:5,7,7

124:10,16

136:19

218:11

CBECS 11:7

11:10,15,20

14:7,15

15:13 25:17

25:22 27:7

168:11

195:22

ceiling 238:12

cells 114:8

census 11:10

13:21,22

24:2 25:3

102:17 168:6

242:4

central 167:11

cents 138:9

certain 28:18

40:6 58:15

115:6 158:14

161:17

165:20

192:20

210:21

213:20 236:3

certainly 89:22

108:15

110:21

123:15

127:20 143:7

199:5 206:15

206:20

221:15

229:21

236:18

CERTIFICATE

247:1

certification

62:13 74:1,2

74:7,20

75:22

certified 75:17

82:3,8,8

204:16

certify 73:7,20

75:4,8 77:7

77:18,20

82:1,2,15

247:5

certifying 75:3

82:13

cetera 11:19

149:10

chair 172:5

chance 7:20

change 6:12

9:6 28:15,21

35:2 43:7

48:10 54:18

56:14 58:2

60:10 62:8

70:8 82:9

84:17 85:7

91:10,14

92:10,10,12

93:7 107:18

123:15

128:20 137:8

139:18 152:1

156:19

169:16

170:13 180:7

180:11 213:1

214:10,11

216:17

222:22 223:7

225:8 231:19

235:11,17

236:9

changed 4:4

6:8,9 8:19,20
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

9:2,12 15:9

28:10 90:3

91:13 99:11

131:16

139:13

168:12

175:15 222:2

235:7 237:12

changeout

214:2

changes 6:11

8:13 70:4

73:14 83:19

91:2 127:17

169:22

173:22

175:22 176:1

176:1,3

190:14

changing 9:11

54:8 81:19

92:1 99:13

221:1

channel 207:3

207:4,13

characteristi...

11:6 13:6

19:6,9,17

44:17

characterize

14:22 95:19

characters

171:20

charge 82:22

107:9 119:6

235:14

charged 73:4

117:22

charges 138:5

138:6

Charles

126:13

Charlie 126:16

126:18 127:3

127:12

146:14,15

209:18,21

210:9 221:4

chart 25:2

44:17 198:16

211:19

charted 62:20

chartered 83:3

charts 116:15

chasing 209:3

chat 80:12

cheaper 87:12

115:22 135:3

160:14

cheapest

125:17

218:22

check 105:18

109:6 112:4

112:6 114:15

123:16 189:8

205:20 207:7

207:14 211:3

218:17,17

219:3 221:5

224:3

checked 143:1

checking 79:3

208:21

229:17

checks 140:5

chew 137:11

Chicago 27:21

chilly 182:19

choice 43:17

115:6 116:8

118:6 125:11

choices 40:20

40:21

choose 42:14

151:4

chosen 13:8

circled 177:2

circular

135:14

cities 126:6

civil 118:6

clarify 71:22

176:6,10

201:16

217:16

237:16

class 160:13

200:14 202:1

202:9 239:10

239:13

240:11

classes 155:9

157:20

190:13 191:1

191:11

clean 142:11

142:12

143:22 165:6

cleaning 140:4

142:11

clear 72:3

115:8 176:7

clearly 82:19

177:16

climate 11:11

13:10 56:5

climates 182:7

182:8 183:15

close 15:14

122:11

129:14 187:4

closer 126:5

171:8

clue 175:20

cluster 167:10

clustering

208:12

coalesce

212:2

Cochran 2:5

code 21:15

73:18 74:14

77:16 185:13

185:18

codes 20:20

123:1 185:21

coil 56:19

115:1 120:1

120:6,8

121:20

122:14 141:4

142:11 184:1

219:7,22

237:4

coils 140:4

143:22

165:16

cold 87:3

183:10,11,15

colder 182:8

colleagues

178:10

189:13 204:6

205:9

collect 109:6

202:20

205:10

208:16

collected

138:2

collecting

202:7

collection

193:16

column 48:8

96:11,12

148:6 149:4

208:18

columns 96:19

97:13 135:16

175:2

combination

19:3 192:22

combine 49:20

49:22 103:10

combined

232:9

come 9:22

19:2,11 39:5

39:11 55:7

66:12 72:10

77:21 80:14

81:3 98:21

111:12 124:6

129:14 132:9

144:11 155:7

158:9 163:15

167:20 170:7

176:9 181:14

184:9 191:5

203:18

204:12 208:3

210:22

218:19

221:11

comes 20:4

36:11 56:18

63:3 68:1

87:3 133:1

163:18

204:10

226:12

comfort 60:20

133:12

214:15 225:3

comfortable

69:6,9,20

90:1 169:9

coming 16:11

18:18,19

96:6 127:18

157:5 177:9

218:12

comment 8:10

8:12 60:11

66:8,9 82:21

108:8 113:15

151:18 156:7

177:1 245:17
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

commented

59:22

commenter

23:5

comments

5:22 23:13

58:19,19,22

59:6 60:11

62:4 76:20

109:17

150:22

152:12,12

161:19 171:2

177:16

179:17 191:2

245:10

commercial

1:3 11:8 30:3

56:17 60:4

78:18 148:9

148:11,15

167:22

170:14,17

171:2,7,8,9

171:16 180:6

180:10

189:21 192:5

192:6,15,16

193:2 194:10

194:11

195:21 206:5

208:1,5

Commission

136:16

committee

60:8,18

common

32:21 140:13

215:9

commonly

241:10

companies

110:7

company 59:8

110:3 127:21

212:14

226:15 228:2

company's

81:16

comparable

36:6 161:11

compare

173:8 230:17

compared

15:11 143:18

145:18

219:15

comparing

171:3

comparison

158:8 236:2

compile

227:20

complained

41:20

complaining

125:1 156:14

complaint

52:18

completely

77:5 180:13

241:13

complexity

100:21

compliance

20:19 21:2,9

21:10 22:6

22:11 70:17

74:2,7,19

78:15 82:3

139:9

complications

53:7

comply 22:12

81:6,11

123:1 188:7

component

117:22

142:22

162:22

components

45:10 119:5

140:6

compress

91:11

compressor

29:21 45:16

52:1 53:9

90:4,11,13

90:16 91:14

91:19 92:6

92:12,14,15

92:22,22

93:1,9,10,16

113:9 114:22

145:6 149:11

149:18,22

150:4,7,17

151:3 154:18

156:20 157:4

158:15,19

159:2 162:20

164:7 165:9

174:4 190:9

221:18,20,22

222:5,8,12

223:8 225:17

compressors

91:7 120:2

148:14 150:2

165:3

compromise

223:12

concept 11:22

234:20 240:9

conceptually

133:5

concern 66:16

66:17 181:20

211:3 212:17

concerned

30:7,9

181:12

183:14

concerning

185:5

concerns

72:16,18

189:7

concluded

118:14

concur 89:14

89:16

condensate

182:3,9,17

182:18,22

183:5,7,16

183:22 184:2

184:10,12,18

184:18 185:1

185:13,15,22

186:4,6,8,11

186:12,19

187:6,12

condenser

237:21 238:1

239:6,7

condensing

184:1

condition 49:3

243:21

conditioned

238:7

conditioner

12:13 24:13

24:14

conditioners

11:4 13:2

190:5 206:5

conditioning

1:3 12:1

conditions

24:13 211:14

conduct 95:6

conference

216:7

confidence

169:15

configuratio...

210:18,21

237:4

confined

55:16

confirm 204:2

211:2

confuse 235:1

confused

232:10

234:21

confusing

103:22

connecting

106:22

consensus

58:17 65:13

65:21 191:16

219:11

consequence

216:2

consequently

33:2,6

consider

89:22 179:20

192:5 198:21

199:6 202:17

220:12

consideration

198:13

206:21

consideratio...

104:16

considered

49:12 119:10

considering

69:7

consist 97:15

consistent

33:16 189:1

consists 95:8

constant 12:9
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

15:3 36:8

84:2,3,12,15

85:7 88:9

94:8,12

96:13,17,21

97:16,18

98:2,19

100:3 102:9

102:20 113:1

114:16,20

116:1 123:11

123:13,14

124:19 125:2

125:3,10,12

125:13

134:18

137:14

139:22 140:2

147:13 172:3

172:9 216:10

216:20 217:9

217:10 218:5

constructed

15:16

construction

16:3 17:17

19:10,11,11

19:16 31:9

31:12,17

32:6,12,13

32:17 167:22

193:7 195:11

consulting

42:14

consumer

83:16 96:4

118:6 233:4

consumers

149:21

173:12

174:11,12,17

174:19,20

175:16

consumption

11:8 38:1

53:17,18

54:8,14

67:11 138:8

236:20

contact 87:17

89:11 131:1

245:20

contactor

221:10

contactors

144:22 145:2

148:16

contacts 212:9

contending

32:5

contentious

65:12

context 57:21

58:3,10

65:12

contingent

81:17

continue 71:9

80:12 88:13

123:3,7

128:3

Continued 3:1

continuing

36:13 90:19

118:11

141:18

contract 5:13

contracting

109:19 110:3

127:14

contractor

92:21 93:2

105:1 110:22

111:4 163:15

164:2 210:9

211:2

contractors

146:16

164:13,15

221:5

contracts

210:1

contribution

209:1

control 100:17

101:7 107:3

107:4,19

135:6,9

controlled

86:5 100:15

100:16 149:9

controller

101:11 106:3

controls

100:20 101:3

106:7,7,8

107:6,8

142:7,8

conventional

135:5

converge

212:4

conversation

79:6 201:4

208:20

conversations

8:7 58:18

converse

212:7

conversion

29:8 30:10

30:13,16,20

30:21 31:11

31:12,21

32:2,6,9,14

32:15 36:11

39:6,7,9 46:2

52:9 85:1

88:6,17,21

96:9 97:21

97:22 99:20

99:20 104:8

104:10,14

126:12 127:6

128:4,6,13

129:3 131:8

131:18,20

133:4 190:14

191:9,10

200:4,10

201:9 203:2

203:6 204:14

conversional

85:20

conversions

39:10

converted

28:19

converts

210:20

convery 30:22

convince

189:13

convinced

42:22 43:1,3

52:14

cool 50:22

cooled 160:13

cooling 11:18

14:12 15:4

18:4,7,10,13

18:20 27:13

28:8 34:4

35:1,11,13

38:22 44:21

45:5 51:3

55:15 209:2

215:5 237:19

238:3 241:2

cooling/heat...

55:13,15

202:17

copy 76:17,21

243:9

correct 9:3

55:12 69:2

75:4 79:16

116:20

117:13 118:3

118:16

127:10

132:14

138:14

140:12 154:8

156:10

185:19

187:18 217:1

247:6

correction

35:19

corrective

185:20

correlations

51:7 206:7

206:12,20

207:2

corresponds

86:20 192:5

corrosive

186:6

cost 10:16

83:13,16

88:6,17

90:14,14,17

93:2,16

95:14,16

98:10 100:9

100:15

101:12,21,22

102:2 103:3

103:4,10,11

103:15,19

104:2,4,4,6

104:15,17

105:3 106:16

106:21,22

108:19 109:6

110:3 111:6

111:7,13

112:8,15
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

113:5 114:13

115:17,22

116:1,12,13

116:17

117:11,20

118:18 119:3

119:22

120:10 121:2

121:4 125:18

127:1 128:6

128:9 129:6

129:11,14

130:21 131:9

134:19

135:15 136:7

138:15,17,18

139:1,2,4

141:2 142:20

144:10

145:18

147:11,11,19

150:8 153:21

158:9 164:17

169:21 170:3

170:9 173:5

173:13,13

174:6,9,10

174:17,17,18

174:22

175:13,17

176:2 192:3

196:5,18,20

201:18

203:19

209:12

212:10,11

215:16 218:9

219:3,6

223:15 231:3

231:9,12,13

231:13,19,20

232:18

236:19

cost-based

19:16

costs 10:15

11:6 84:13

85:1 90:3,4

90:18,20

91:1,2 92:6

92:22 93:3,3

93:10 101:21

106:2 112:20

112:22 115:9

115:10

118:17,18

122:16,21

126:21 128:5

129:7,19

134:15,22

135:4 136:2

137:12

139:16,20

140:8,16

142:5,14

144:4,6,20

145:17

146:10,18

147:16,21

149:19,20,22

150:4 154:11

165:20 173:9

173:9,10,18

173:19 175:5

175:6,8,18

203:8,22

210:7 219:7

220:22

232:12,12

Coughlin 2:6

5:11,11 6:14

10:3 15:11

15:20 16:6

16:12,14,17

17:6,8,16,21

18:21 19:3

19:13,15

20:8 21:13

23:13,17,19

24:3,7,10

25:7,9 26:11

26:14,18

27:1,3,5 28:5

31:3,14 32:1

32:8 33:12

33:18 35:5

35:22 36:21

37:7,13 38:3

38:17 39:8

39:11 44:3

44:20 45:4

48:12,19

49:8 52:7,11

52:12 56:6

57:8,11

138:1 151:19

153:4 155:14

155:22 157:9

158:13,20

159:14,21

163:6 167:19

168:10 169:2

169:8,14

223:5 225:4

225:9 233:12

233:16,18

234:4 244:11

245:2

counsel 247:9

count 50:9

counting 78:8

country 50:21

50:22 111:17

137:6

County 204:17

204:18

couple 28:10

54:18 55:10

164:12

176:13 192:9

222:19 230:2

course 50:14

67:5 92:8

152:22 154:6

162:4

covers 206:6

Craig's 159:13

159:16

crane 105:14

108:19,20

109:3,7,10

110:7,9

139:1

create 16:18

229:1 234:11

241:8

created 174:3

creating 63:7

crew 206:21

cross 147:5,7

crosscheck

210:7

cruise 50:2

CUAC24:19

cubicles

193:22

curb 32:9 85:1

88:6,17

97:21,22

99:20,21

101:18

104:14

126:12 127:6

128:6,13

129:3 130:1

130:1 131:9

131:18,21

132:1,1,2

133:4,10

145:9 190:15

201:9 203:6

204:14,20

212:7,11

curbs 32:14

89:14 104:8

104:10

122:10

129:20

132:17,17

200:4,10

curious

153:12

170:18

current 10:21

19:8,9 73:11

73:12 80:19

134:2 139:15

158:10

currently

52:22 61:15

61:22 63:16

79:14 121:13

curve 29:8

30:10,16,21

30:22 31:11

31:13,13,21

32:2 33:5

36:11 39:7

44:9 46:3

52:9 167:4,8

203:14

curves 29:4

30:13 32:16

39:9 88:21

96:9 97:11

curvexx 32:7

customer

42:16 102:5

125:11

cut 161:14

cuts 133:10

134:2

CWAFs 180:19

180:22

cycle 10:15,16

83:13,16

90:5,13 91:1

92:5 95:14

95:16 118:18

130:21
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

144:10 158:9

173:19 174:9

174:9 175:6

175:12 176:2

cycling 53:10

53:19 55:20

55:21

Cymbalsky 2:4

4:13,13 8:6

8:22 9:3,14

9:18 20:13

21:14,22

22:8 23:2,6

58:5,21 60:7

60:17 61:14

62:8,18 63:6

64:10 68:2

69:5,14

71:19 72:7

72:20 73:3,9

74:13,21

75:6,16,19

76:11,16

79:17 80:4

82:21 83:8

123:19 124:8

162:13

163:14 164:5

164:11 166:2

167:7,13,16

167:18

176:19

177:11,14

178:6,13

179:11

188:15,20

190:3 208:7

222:19 223:2

224:19 225:5

225:12 226:1

226:13 227:1

227:4,13,17

227:21 228:4

228:8,13,18

228:22 229:6

229:9,13

232:2,16

234:3 235:4

235:8,19

236:4,11

237:9,13

239:11,18

240:4,8,14

240:22

241:16,21

242:17 243:2

243:6,13,16

245:15,19

D

D 4:1 212:9

Dade 204:17

204:18

Darmington

2:7

darn 67:2

dashed 113:20

113:22

data 10:2

25:10 27:8

29:2 34:8

93:12 94:19

94:19 102:17

134:5,21

151:20 152:4

156:5 160:5

161:8 162:2

166:3,4,6,11

166:16 168:1

168:5,6

169:5,11,12

176:15 177:8

178:10,13

179:12 189:5

191:1 195:22

195:22

199:10,13

202:20

205:10

206:11

226:10

227:20 230:6

244:8,17,20

database

152:21 155:4

160:22

dataxxx

172:12

date 70:14,16

80:21

Dave 3:9

116:10

121:21 228:9

David 5:1

day 99:3

167:20

229:11,12

246:1

days 79:18,22

229:14

de 242:13

dead 58:16

deal 220:4

dealer 107:9

dealing 7:22

143:13

Deb 213:5

debating 73:3

debt 129:3

170:7

decay 152:8

decide 50:9

decision 58:7

90:7 163:22

164:22 169:1

191:17

222:17

decisions

19:16

deck 236:6,6

declining

102:19

decorating

233:8

decrease 45:4

45:6 157:21

decreased

118:1

decreasing

48:10

decrement

133:8

deduce 168:16

deem 86:13

defend 50:9

108:12

defined 239:14

240:12,16

definite 67:13

definitely

165:19

166:11

229:19,20

definition

130:6 234:1

240:15

241:17

242:17

deflections

199:4

degradation

53:9 54:3,4,6

163:2 165:19

degree 23:9

degrees

181:18

182:12

185:11

deLaski 2:8

5:3,3 38:11

41:5,9,14

42:21 43:6

44:2,5,11

51:12 58:12

59:17 65:9

66:2 67:1,5

70:5,16

72:22 73:16

74:4 76:21

78:6,9 89:10

89:13 103:20

104:5 110:14

110:20

deliverable

205:4

delivered

35:13

demand 138:6

138:7

Demmingxxx

161:13

demographic

11:9

demonstrate

155:1

demonstrated

118:7

denominator

233:7

department

60:3,9,13

64:17,19

65:5 66:2,20

76:5

depending

17:18 40:7

56:4 124:3

depends 126:4

135:8 155:17

184:13,20,20

Depot 197:10

depressure

32:21

deprived

231:11

derive 231:14

232:14

derived 137:20

138:5

describe 28:6
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

100:21

166:10

240:19

described

240:17

description

243:1

design 34:2

37:13 39:20

39:22 40:4

41:7,8 46:6

48:20,21

51:8 70:3,12

73:7 75:18

82:1,12,14

83:21 84:2

85:5 86:11

87:1,17,18

94:12,12,13

94:15 96:13

96:16,20

97:1,2,7 98:9

98:20 99:8

99:10,18

101:10,17

116:8 123:4

123:4,7,8

125:8,13

126:1 193:14

207:4 210:14

214:5,7

215:12,16,17

215:19 216:3

216:12

218:18 241:9

241:10

designed

85:19 137:10

215:9 216:7

218:2,5

designer

42:15 48:3

132:19 207:3

designing

75:3 182:12

designs 39:15

40:6 84:5,15

88:10,11

96:8 119:12

119:13,14,15

119:18

134:18

137:14

despite 116:1

detail 20:22

23:11 27:9

135:10

143:21

details 169:3

206:16

determined

232:11

Detlef 3:6 4:16

6:5 45:17

89:18 116:5

119:12

123:12

131:22

176:21

179:13

227:18,20

229:1 243:19

244:3

Detlef' 131:1

Detlef's 113:15

developing

25:4

development

40:21

device 135:1

Dick 86:14

124:16 197:2

dictated 88:11

dictates 98:9

difference

14:14 15:14

36:7 38:20

39:20 52:14

53:8 62:17

82:11 105:5

105:7 108:3

108:19,22

109:7,21

114:12 120:5

120:13 129:1

145:22 154:5

171:4 209:3

222:20

223:11

224:17

231:18

233:12

236:10

differences

7:18,19

147:15 171:6

different 11:4

12:19 14:17

15:3,8 24:12

39:16,21

40:8 41:12

41:18 48:7

49:9,10,20

54:11 59:12

77:6 83:22

94:8 98:18

100:17

105:13

106:12

108:21 109:1

109:9,11

113:3 128:17

149:9 169:11

175:4 180:13

182:3 191:3

194:20 201:8

204:19

217:19 224:2

224:17

226:17,20

229:22

233:20,21

237:18 240:7

241:13

differentiate

203:20

differentiating

121:15

differs 233:10

difficult 32:3

diffuser 86:2,4

86:9,19 87:5

96:10 98:4

99:8 104:12

134:15 135:2

135:4,5,7,12

135:15,18

136:5,12

137:7 212:15

219:1,1

237:7

diffusers

84:18,18

85:14,17,19

87:4,9,13,15

88:5 98:14

98:16,18

99:1,13,22

100:4 209:10

213:1,17,19

214:9,12

215:19,22

216:7,18

217:5,13,19

218:12

digested 44:13

digital 101:10

135:9

digits 184:15

dimension

199:18

diminishing

41:1,5

direct 101:10

135:9

direction

58:20 156:16

211:13

directory

188:10

dis 97:10

disadvantag...

30:17

disagree 82:10

disclosing

89:3

discomfort

226:8

disconnect

37:20,21

163:15,22

189:2

discontinue

171:5

discount

12:16 95:20

146:3 169:19

170:1,13,15

170:21

171:14

222:22

229:17

233:20

discounting

146:1

discrepancy

229:18

discuss 10:11

119:2 179:9

245:6

discussed

10:20 20:21

28:7,8 29:8

29:11 35:3

119:8 123:3

200:21

211:18

discussing

115:9

discussion
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

63:1 89:20

100:16

160:21 203:2

203:3 208:3

209:14

215:12

discussions

120:14

191:13

disfavors

30:12

dishes 214:20

dismiss 189:6

dispense

191:14

disperse 85:15

disproportio...

30:14

dissimilars

57:3

distance

182:22

distinction

195:16

distinctive

102:18

distinguish

191:21

distribute

52:21 165:5

210:15

distributing

53:1

distribution

41:14 94:4,4

94:8 96:6

158:21

159:14

162:12

171:19 172:7

172:15 188:9

191:8 200:6

200:13,15

231:8 232:5

232:22 233:9

233:11,19

234:12

distributions

12:18 27:7

168:19 172:1

230:6

disturbing

41:10

diverge 240:3

diversity 49:5

divide 231:17

divided 231:19

division 11:11

13:22 46:21

divisions

13:21

docket 243:14

document

60:20 63:13

110:1

doe 4:8,13

5:12 6:1 8:6

20:13 57:19

59:6,20 61:6

61:12,16

62:1,3,7

63:19 64:14

64:15,20

65:2,7 69:9

74:2 76:20

77:7,9,11,13

80:8,18,21

81:1,17 82:4

82:15,19,20

83:1,4 116:6

130:6 152:6

179:4

DOE's 63:11

65:4

doing 33:1

53:1,21

55:12 57:2

59:11 66:3

69:18 72:2

84:9 85:6

91:17 92:22

95:9 102:1

106:8 108:5

116:17

132:21

133:22 137:7

138:18,19

140:5 144:4

150:10 151:5

151:15 158:8

179:12

185:21 194:8

196:1,2

200:19 201:2

201:18

204:11

217:17 220:4

221:2 226:11

226:14

234:13 235:3

244:1,4,22

dollar 138:8

dollars 128:7

128:12

135:19

139:20 141:7

143:14

161:15

201:10,10,13

212:12 220:3

dominated

12:22

Donna 1:18

247:3,16

door 122:14

doors 193:19

Doppel 2:9

100:8 183:8

183:17 184:4

184:6

double 34:15

34:17 50:9

75:6 92:11

157:22

165:15

207:14

doubles 91:12

downsize 33:2

downsizing

133:3

downstream

203:7

Dpppel 100:8

draft 7:4

drain 182:4,5

183:22

186:15

drains 186:16

dramatic

35:15,17

dramatically

139:13

draw 95:11

drawing 45:13

93:8,9 95:17

drip 191:9

drive 120:15

121:17 122:8

driven 118:8

125:18 146:9

driver 90:6

157:1

drives 156:4

driving 66:12

drop 17:18

30:21 31:1

50:6 95:15

118:15,19

153:19

203:14 205:1

212:22

215:10

245:14

drops 203:5

206:8,19

drove 164:21

drum 186:16

dry 57:3

159:20

dual 114:3,5

147:6 208:6

208:7 237:14

237:18

238:22

240:20

duck 208:7

duct 208:6

210:14

211:12

237:14,19

238:8,22

240:21

ducted 237:21

238:1

ducting

237:19,19

ducts 241:2

ductwork 86:3

99:1 196:9

238:2

due 53:7,19

173:22

dump 186:18

dumping 87:2

durability

151:13

durable 154:2

193:3

during 80:13

90:11 176:9

181:17

DVC 135:21

E

E 2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1,1 133:2

e-mail 180:3

224:12

e-mailed 243:9

E4 52:3
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

95:7 134:16

138:14 150:6

171:17 186:7

easier 18:2

154:12 236:7

easily 141:22

232:13

easy 18:1

130:20 132:6

169:12

eaten 185:2

economic

102:15

213:21

economically

213:22

economize

23:8

economizer

124:21 165:7

209:4

economizers

208:21

economy

185:12

edges 4:11

65:17,20

Edward 2:2

EEER 40:8

EEI 137:21

EEO 14:3

EER 58:1

59:19 61:16

64:17,21,22

70:6 72:20

73:12 74:3

74:14,20

76:1 77:14

79:2 82:3,8

82:13 240:7

effect 29:7

35:17 44:8

54:12,18

55:6 56:18

67:11 70:3,3

70:7 81:18

143:9 210:15

effective 70:14

70:16 87:8

137:17 138:4

157:19

effectively

91:2 94:14

157:2,22

effectiveness

231:4,10

232:18

efficiencies

94:5 97:5

119:7

efficiency 19:6

19:18 29:15

33:4 37:11

37:12,16,17

45:10 49:22

50:1 59:21

66:18 70:4

70:15 72:19

83:17,22

84:1,2,5,9

85:10 90:15

94:4 96:11

96:22 97:4

98:1 103:2,2

103:4,16

109:4 114:22

117:4 118:9

118:10,21

120:16

121:10 127:7

128:10,11

131:22

137:13

139:18

141:19

147:11,13

150:9 160:8

171:19,19

172:7,8,15

173:11,15

174:12

175:10,14

180:17

184:13 188:9

190:13

198:20

199:15 223:9

230:5 231:4

231:10

232:13,14

efficient 37:2

90:16 118:6

142:4 223:16

effort 10:2

EIA 20:14

EIA's 22:10

eight 171:8

Eileen 2:10 5:8

23:14

either 30:21

32:16 45:2

84:16 87:17

134:7 166:11

222:20

EL 6:9 7:4

30:12,18

31:11 36:19

39:11 45:22

45:22 46:16

47:2,8,10

48:6,21 51:6

51:10,14,15

86:21 117:11

218:6 237:2

239:5

EL's 134:17

140:21 223:6

EL0 113:17

EL1 6:8 7:1

36:8 94:16

114:11

EL2 36:9 52:5

84:9 114:15

122:12 133:2

EL3 29:9,15

33:5 36:10

38:20 49:9

85:2 87:16

132:15 133:3

133:11

191:15 200:1

EL3's 133:9

EL3.5 38:20,20

EL4 6:18 7:6

7:10,11,15

35:14,21

85:11 87:21

99:15 100:1

217:15 237:5

237:6

EL5 7:16 35:14

36:5 85:17

102:12

elbow 211:11

211:13,13

electrical

181:21

electrician

107:2,5,13

107:15

electricity

13:10,13

elements 65:1

elevation

62:16,17

74:17

else 21:19

86:14 88:13

127:9 163:12

209:6 230:9

234:21 243:7

else's 162:5

embedded

31:19

embraced

65:7

emerged

65:14

Emerson 4:18

Emily 3:16

5:16 245:11

emphasize

87:21 97:14

103:7

employed

247:10

enable 68:16

encounters

151:3

encourages

245:20

end 11:7 13:18

32:11 42:4

52:1 61:17

68:5 72:1

94:1 95:2

103:1 122:2

123:22 128:1

129:10

145:12,13

162:15 173:1

186:1 212:14

224:3 239:10

245:21

ended 8:12

energies 174:1

energy 4:8

10:5,10,14

10:15 11:8

12:2 14:7

24:14 29:6

29:15,19,21

30:8 34:7,19

34:20 36:3

36:14,20

37:5,8,11,16

37:20,22

38:4,7,10,16

38:18 39:1

40:13,19
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

42:2,4 43:10

44:21,21,22

45:5,5,6,7

46:19,21,22

47:4,9,12

48:22 49:5

51:3,3,19

52:18 53:9

53:11,17,17

54:8,13 76:5

77:12 83:15

95:8 115:11

119:19

136:16

137:17,19,20

138:5 171:19

173:20,21

176:1 189:14

190:6 197:20

202:15

236:20 237:3

239:1 242:15

244:11,12

energy/build...

209:6

enforce 75:5

77:19

enforcement

78:5 82:4

engine 163:10

engineer

42:14

engineering

34:8 40:4

43:22 83:15

83:21 84:10

96:9 102:3

104:19

105:11

106:15

119:20

134:21 136:9

141:1 175:22

176:22 206:2

206:5 208:1

244:2

engineers

87:18

England 25:14

25:15,20

enormously

146:11

242:12

enough 9:17

14:21 26:6,7

26:10 33:1

59:2 73:6

85:14 87:4

93:22 143:3

179:21

182:22 187:4

220:3 244:8

entail 198:2

entire 117:12

entirely 71:20

envelope

19:17

EPA 42:6

equal 21:19

91:20 225:2

equipment

11:18 19:4,6

19:18 34:20

42:15,15

46:21 66:19

82:1,2 84:20

84:20 85:3

90:12,16

91:3,12,15

92:9,12 96:8

96:12,16,17

96:20 97:7

98:9 99:18

101:17,21,22

102:6 103:7

103:14,17,18

104:3,18,19

106:19 108:7

109:4 112:7

112:12,20,22

114:12

115:17,18,19

117:10,20

118:13

125:12 127:5

127:7 128:10

128:18

129:16

138:15,19

143:13 144:7

147:10 152:7

152:9,19,22

153:2,4

154:19 155:9

160:13 161:3

162:4 164:4

170:5 182:7

197:17

212:14

217:11

223:15

238:15

240:11,17

equipment's

144:9

equity 170:7

Er 240:7

Eric 3:2

error 34:22

ESB 34:8

ESP 28:22

29:3 45:19

Especially

52:3

ESPs 28:21

essentially

11:2 12:4

14:12,14

20:9 24:18

26:11 30:12

34:2 54:8

55:2 58:15

68:6 105:18

155:17

168:13,17

191:7 215:13

establish

139:4

estimate 15:12

15:12 19:16

28:15,18

33:19 119:22

144:15 152:1

158:10 188:5

estimated

151:21

et 11:19

149:10

evaluating

116:6

evap 141:13

219:22

evaporator

140:19 141:1

141:3,22

206:11

evenly 53:1

eventually

152:10

ever 12:11

165:15 169:3

184:21 218:1

every 9:6,16

31:20 48:6

69:19 97:5

123:21 151:4

151:7 162:22

184:18

185:16

208:13 216:5

234:8,9,9

everybody

90:1 246:2

everyone 4:2

22:14 59:8

69:6 71:3

179:1 192:10

231:2 244:13

everyone's

67:10,16

everything8:9

25:11 58:10

58:14,16

81:17 117:17

163:11

175:21

193:20

210:20

222:11

232:11 241:9

ex-trapping

169:6

exact 99:17

152:8 229:21

exactly 30:4

63:9 96:8

104:7 127:11

135:11

example 12:22

32:20 36:2

52:16 101:10

140:7 181:21

232:19

except 42:3

80:5 127:6

197:3 210:13

exceptional

162:10

exchanger

147:22 148:2

148:15

179:18

185:19

exchangers

6:19

excluding

149:11

exclusively

13:6

Excuse 180:6
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

exercise 54:21

existing 40:6

85:13 132:16

133:1

expand 242:11

expansion

201:6

expect 55:17

81:5 178:1

243:20

244:14

expectation

53:10

expectations

243:21

expected

12:21

expects

177:17

expensive

84:21 86:4

111:16

120:20 121:9

121:11,15

122:9 145:7

146:18 164:4

164:10

experience

163:16

experienced

132:20

experiencing

175:18

expertise

211:20

explain 41:12

56:10 85:6,8

155:22

156:13,17

explaining

115:13

explanation

210:8 234:22

exponential

201:7

expressing

42:3

extend 157:16

158:17

extending

91:8

extent 71:21

149:13 161:9

226:16

external 28:16

29:22 30:10

37:10 38:13

44:7 54:16

174:2 205:22

208:17

extra 127:6

extrapolate

169:4

extrapolating

169:5,7

extreme

128:22

134:20,20

F

fabricated

89:16

face 142:11

facetious

50:13

facilitate 184:2

fact 21:20 24:1

49:11 83:4

96:3 128:8

166:3

factor 18:20

19:12 30:15

30:17 34:22

35:11 52:13

53:4,9,14,15

53:16,18

54:2,4,4,7

55:1 56:1

133:12

174:14 210:3

factored 196:4

factories

119:7

factors 15:5

18:4,10

26:22 28:8

35:6 161:14

factually 22:17

Fahrenheit

181:18

fail 150:2

186:7

failure 167:11

failures 145:12

fair 9:8,14,17

9:21 67:15

177:4,5,7

fairly 20:1 59:2

122:10

169:12

fairness 58:12

falling 163:12

familiar 11:7

86:12 95:22

170:2

fan 28:9,12,15

28:18 29:4

29:13,20

30:8 34:5,7

34:10,20

36:8,11 38:3

38:18,19,21

39:1,21

44:21 45:4,6

45:7,15,21

46:7,9,12

47:9,11 49:9

50:6 51:2

52:1,6 56:17

56:20 113:12

120:2 148:18

149:1 174:3

236:16,21,22

237:1

fancy 107:20

fans 6:20

40:10 46:6,7

47:13 81:13

81:14 144:22

149:9,10

154:2 239:6

239:7

far 28:21 36:18

62:12 129:6

182:21

193:10 204:2

206:4 210:20

211:19

favorite 30:2

feature 116:4

116:8 121:12

features 11:9

11:14,18

12:5

federal 4:12,14

66:21 70:8

72:19 73:12

73:13,18,19

76:6 77:17

78:11

federally 75:21

feedback

122:8 126:16

128:1

feeds 10:15

feel 69:8,20

70:1 146:20

169:9,12

170:7 211:17

233:8 245:1

feeling 177:7

225:5,6

feels 71:21

feet 15:21

122:2

felt 15:12

27:16 127:16

field 45:19

49:3 137:2

fielding 10:8

fields 11:20,22

13:9,19 15:8

figure 19:8

32:17 43:12

153:14 179:5

191:7 199:21

200:3,12,17

201:22

figuring 150:1

155:20 200:9

file 109:16

fill 26:8,10

filled 166:15

filter 27:10

140:16

141:18 219:6

filtered 27:13

27:15

filters 140:9,10

140:15,20

141:6,14,15

141:19 142:3

142:22

final 8:22 43:8

58:7 61:4,12

63:11,12,15

63:18,20

68:8 73:10

73:11,17

74:14 75:10

75:13 76:19

81:22 93:18

finalize 124:7

124:9,9

finalized 81:4

finalizing 68:8

financial

247:11

find 31:17 47:8

59:15 77:9
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

77:17,20

116:3 122:7

122:9 144:21

152:13

173:16

218:17 231:5

finding 47:17

fine 65:19 72:1

132:11

149:13

217:13

218:20

225:14

227:16

finish 177:14

179:2

finishes 213:8

firm 211:20

first 4:5 14:8

26:1 77:8

83:20 87:4

104:1 106:14

114:7 125:18

154:21

159:11

164:10,17

165:10 170:4

173:4,17

175:10

176:16,17

179:3,7

205:6 217:14

231:12,20

first-cost

118:7

first-order

12:1

fit 33:4 143:18

151:17 200:2

239:8

fits 238:11

fitted 207:14

fitting 207:10

five 54:1 84:20

85:11 99:1

104:22 145:1

146:3 148:19

161:22

175:10

197:18 205:2

228:3 229:14

229:14

242:22

fix 21:1 42:11

50:19 55:14

fixed 36:15

42:13 126:22

flag 12:8

flat 48:9 167:9

flattened

162:17

floor 11:15

12:7 14:3,17

14:18 15:6

15:13 16:19

16:22 18:9

floors 11:16

flow 44:11

85:12,12

86:18 87:9

87:10 98:6

98:16 99:5

100:2,6

113:9 125:9

125:10 190:9

203:19

216:16 218:1

fly 185:6

FMCS 5:8

focus 25:11

focusing

23:10 174:21

folks 4:8 51:7

56:2 66:6

68:14 124:5

140:5

follow 59:7

80:18 81:1

206:20

234:21

followed 82:5

following 43:2

78:19

foot 237:11

footage 30:4

134:1 140:11

220:8

footnote 27:10

64:11

footprint

190:18

forecast 18:1

102:15

139:10 227:6

forecasting

189:3

foregoing

247:4,5

foreshadowi...

160:21

forget 75:8

135:17 152:8

Forgo 220:1

forgot 152:6

form 189:5,11

191:12

formal 67:22

formally 65:5

formed 193:18

formula 53:12

166:19,21

formulation

146:9

forth 95:20

96:10

forthcoming

94:21,22

forward 17:2

26:21 31:9

32:11 43:9

60:2 65:21

66:14 67:13

67:19 72:2,2

72:13 80:9

123:4 124:1

161:18 176:7

177:20 180:5

found 47:5

186:8 222:9

four 7:5 14:2,5

26:2 49:8

84:20 85:10

96:19 99:1

137:13

142:21 145:1

149:1 185:16

193:5 202:22

four-year

221:9

fraction 32:2,4

93:18 97:18

133:11

157:22

158:15 181:3

187:17

framed 58:10

Francisco

134:22

freezes 182:12

friendly 233:5

front 68:13

145:12

153:16,22

full 19:15 56:3

161:12

200:20

fully 13:12

25:10 44:13

53:12 55:22

191:20

240:16

fun 185:9

function 90:14

103:16

104:18 132:2

132:3

fundamentally

46:15

furnace 81:13

81:14 170:14

171:2 180:8

181:16 189:3

189:14 190:3

furnaces

179:15 180:7

180:8,10,12

189:18,21

further 151:18

197:15

furthest 96:11

future 16:11

22:5,7 33:10

102:19 139:8

139:10

169:20 173:1

220:7

G

G 4:1

gag 233:3

gain 118:8,9

garages 238:9

gate 210:20

211:3

gather 203:4

gave 51:7

105:2

gee 192:4

general 16:2

89:6 98:14

159:8 164:14

164:15

197:14

237:11

generalized

10:8 11:1,21

12:4,14,20

24:11,22

88:20 95:7

95:12,17
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

19

96:4 97:15

generally

98:20 167:10

173:15

174:10 212:1

generate

14:10 29:20

generated

29:4

Georgia

183:20 184:4

184:6

getting 29:6

36:15 102:2

107:14

111:19 128:1

130:13

134:22

142:19

143:20 144:6

145:2 146:5

146:12 150:7

152:4 159:2

165:10

169:13

176:13 179:2

184:16

222:16

226:10 244:7

give 10:8 14:8

24:11 41:20

42:1 43:19

48:4 55:6

60:19 78:2,5

81:1 91:20

131:3 166:8

210:16 225:2

227:19

231:22 232:1

given 12:13

14:13 52:19

98:21 122:20

125:11 133:1

200:3 225:19

givenxxx

119:21

gives 26:11,22

53:4,15 81:7

giving 66:21

81:17 151:13

glaring 179:8

go 4:6,10,10

6:2,3 9:13

10:6 12:21

18:3 29:15

30:11 34:9

34:11 36:5

36:12,17,19

37:1,1 40:12

43:5 45:1,6

46:20 47:1,1

49:15,16

52:3,5 54:21

58:13,14,20

60:5 66:4,8

68:18 70:3,5

70:20 71:6

71:17,19

72:9 74:1

77:8,11,19

77:22 79:7

85:13,16

86:22 87:16

88:14 96:20

96:21 98:11

98:22 99:2,5

104:17,22

105:10,18

107:17

111:10

114:11

117:11

121:16

122:22

124:19,22

125:9 126:10

126:14

127:20

132:15

133:11

136:19 137:6

141:14

142:16 144:1

145:1 147:9

147:10,22

148:3,5

152:13,21

154:10 157:1

159:7 163:11

163:13 165:4

165:6,18

171:21 176:2

179:4,6

182:21 185:8

188:12

194:13 196:7

196:7,10,11

198:19 201:7

202:16,19

209:3,7

212:21 213:1

214:19 216:6

217:12 221:5

223:9,13,16

235:17 236:6

236:15,16

239:4,7

go-forward

8:10

goes 13:3

34:10,11

54:5 70:7

75:9 96:17

97:1,3

114:18 115:5

119:4 124:17

129:11

130:21

135:21 152:7

162:17

166:20 172:5

175:8 176:21

182:14

193:13 201:7

217:13 220:8

going 4:8 9:4

10:4,6,7,10

20:14 22:11

24:8 30:11

30:19 31:5

31:12 32:4

32:11 36:20

41:17 43:6

50:19,22

51:10 52:14

52:16 53:22

53:22 54:11

54:20 56:2

56:21 59:12

60:13,20,22

63:4 65:11

66:8,20

67:10 68:9

68:10,22

69:17 70:22

71:2,10,10

76:2 79:6

81:17 82:12

82:17,20

85:8 86:19

89:8,19 91:8

94:21 97:12

98:11 101:20

102:19

107:17 109:2

109:22 111:6

111:7 112:16

113:4,5

117:15

118:10,12

119:6 124:14

125:6,8

126:11 133:2

133:3,10

134:14

136:11

137:16

138:12 139:6

141:19

142:20 143:8

145:1 148:3

150:2 154:9

159:8 160:1

161:16

163:11,16

165:2,14,15

167:2 171:3

171:13 173:1

174:8 175:5

175:6,14

176:7 177:15

177:22 178:7

178:9 179:4

179:19 183:8

184:22

185:13,14

186:2,6,15

187:21 188:4

188:21

193:10 197:1

198:15,16

199:17

203:12,13

208:19

213:16 217:5

217:18,19

218:5 221:4

222:20 223:5

223:10

225:20,21

226:1,2

229:7,20

233:17,17

235:10,11,12

235:19,20,20

237:14 242:7

242:8 243:13

244:4,8,20

244:22

gone 12:14
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

36:4 60:9

91:5 140:10

140:11,16

173:14,19,21

174:8 175:11

gonna 15:1

16:7 21:1,17

22:12 39:2

40:8 42:11

48:12 55:10

55:14 59:4

60:1 75:4,18

81:2,8 89:1,4

89:10 90:10

108:21

109:10

115:22 116:2

121:15 122:7

125:21 141:7

141:11,14

148:18 151:4

159:10

163:13,13

166:8 182:13

194:9 201:2

205:8 211:10

222:15 239:7

239:19 242:2

good 4:2 7:21

9:20 22:10

22:13 37:15

41:21 43:17

46:17 57:5

57:14 88:19

93:22 125:15

125:22 126:3

149:16

159:12

167:18 176:4

180:15

182:14

210:10

215:14

225:15 227:4

227:7 228:1

228:18

229:15 230:9

230:9 240:15

Goodman 4:22

171:1

got 8:10 22:10

35:13 45:20

45:21,22

46:1 88:19

108:9,10

111:4 120:9

124:19

128:15 134:6

136:5 148:22

150:22

157:17

158:18

160:15

168:22 178:2

188:17

195:10

202:22

216:20

227:15

229:15 238:8

gotten 94:6

117:14

140:20

161:15

government

178:7

grade 193:2,20

Granger 93:15

150:8

Grangerxxx

93:10

granular

130:12,13

granularity

160:12

graphs 192:1

192:3

great 20:21

45:14 88:18

124:11

242:11

greater 30:6

greatest 62:2

65:15,18

Greg 2:18 5:10

9:15 10:18

21:4 35:9

83:10 92:19

103:21

116:15,22

129:4 157:12

167:19 177:1

187:17 189:4

208:4 219:8

230:12 233:2

244:16

ground 43:7

62:18 106:1

group 1:5 5:16

28:7 62:20

62:21 67:15

71:1,21

72:14 80:8

82:22 83:2

88:17 127:19

130:7 141:16

176:5 224:4

group's 62:22

groups 86:17

124:10

guess 7:19

10:6 13:19

16:2,7 43:17

48:5 54:9

63:7 78:19

78:19 109:5

113:14

115:21 120:6

123:5 130:2

131:19

132:12

156:13 161:7

162:19

166:14 177:6

181:2,4,4,19

185:10

197:12,16,16

198:8 203:2

213:2 216:19

223:3 226:3

235:18

243:22 244:1

245:9

guessing

16:22

guesstimate

211:8

guide 140:19

gun 150:21

gut 211:17

guy 107:21

142:20

163:18 164:5

164:11 210:9

guys 8:7 67:5

74:4 203:20

210:16

211:22 220:4

227:14

232:17

241:21

H

half 27:14,17

28:2 29:1

34:8 35:6,14

43:20 45:21

46:4 96:14

98:5 102:7

102:12,13

104:21 105:3

105:8,12

111:3,7

113:8 114:9

114:13 120:4

130:3,14

149:3 158:2

165:11

170:19 171:9

175:7 196:4

199:22

223:15 225:8

244:6

hand 70:5,5

216:6

handle 88:19

108:22 231:2

handler 27:6

handlers

109:1 200:14

handling

11:19 12:8

98:21

hands 71:4,9

hang 205:17

happen 39:4

60:19 68:20

87:2 110:13

156:10

159:10 169:4

183:8 214:2

happened

127:17 137:8

137:9 165:5

173:3,6

happening

190:9 221:7

happens

184:12,19

185:16 187:8

205:10

217:15

happy 60:19

243:3

hard 99:3,4

105:19 116:3

124:1 149:15

166:5 194:19

216:13

harder 32:16
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

hardly 58:16

175:16

harping 34:14

Harvey 2:19

5:5 15:18

17:12 32:19

42:9 43:9

49:16 55:18

92:19 111:9

112:5 127:3

127:11

132:18

142:18

160:20 161:6

177:6 189:4

191:5,19

204:5 215:11

219:10 233:2

242:3

has 15:9 29:3

29:8,10,12

33:15 36:3

38:21 41:19

42:6 43:14

44:6 46:20

47:7,20,22

58:8 61:7,10

64:17,19

66:2,7 73:14

77:13 78:22

79:14 80:18

80:20 81:1

91:13 99:11

102:5 106:11

107:16 112:9

120:6,8

122:1,2,14

127:1 148:3

148:5 152:22

154:3 162:22

166:9 167:20

173:14,21

174:4,6

175:15

181:19

192:20 193:4

195:11

204:14 209:7

212:9 213:2

213:5 215:7

216:10 218:8

224:10

230:22 238:2

243:7

Hasn't 4:3

hat 20:14

hate 6:3

haven't 38:21

44:13 51:8

94:6 117:14

138:10

139:12

173:19 189:8

having 36:7

44:8 47:17

55:1 151:6

155:20

161:10

174:13

183:16 203:3

208:13

216:13

he'll 179:16,21

head 16:7

155:11 190:1

headings

103:21

hear 109:15

126:14 131:5

217:17

heard 84:22

120:14

126:17

196:18 212:7

212:13 226:8

hearing 43:10

221:3 245:22

heartburn

112:3

heat 6:19

52:19 53:4,6

54:14 147:22

148:2,14

170:18

179:18

181:21

182:13

185:15,19

241:2

heaters 81:9

heating 11:18

28:13 46:13

215:5 237:1

237:19 241:2

heavier 105:4

110:10 154:3

heavy 193:20

193:21 195:6

226:14

heck 196:13

Height 190:20

held 67:9

239:16,16

helicopter

105:13

help 16:1 69:1

69:4 88:21

124:2,15

201:22

helpful 195:4

205:16

helps 101:16

her 226:15

245:20

here 6:4,18,19

16:17 20:16

21:6 36:3,3

44:8 47:7

48:13 49:10

50:3,10,19

51:6 52:8,15

56:2,8 60:8,9

60:14 64:10

67:7 71:17

80:5 84:7

88:3,4 90:20

92:3 94:7,7

96:2 99:15

102:9,14

104:11

108:11,12

109:15,22

119:13,13

128:18

135:10,12

137:22

138:11,13

139:8,17

140:3 143:14

160:12,12

169:22 170:3

172:19,22

173:4 174:6

174:9,20

175:2,3,14

176:5 178:2

179:6 180:17

181:1 184:15

189:14,17,19

201:15 204:1

212:17

215:12,17

228:12 229:5

239:15

241:16 242:2

here's 37:3

68:10,10,11

hereby 247:5

hey 152:15

hi 35:9 201:5

high 45:20

48:6 136:6

141:19 143:5

146:13 168:7

195:13

higher 22:19

28:22 29:9

30:8,12,17

33:4 37:5,11

37:16 39:2

44:15 45:15

46:16 54:17

90:15 106:7

106:16 109:3

109:3 117:11

117:18,21

118:21 127:7

129:7 161:15

174:2 183:11

199:15

202:17

211:18

214:21 237:2

239:5

highlight 8:2,5

highlights

13:20

highly 17:16

23:4

hire 106:10

174:4

historical

151:16

history 162:2

166:22

hit 29:9 121:19

130:15

147:15

hits 223:6

Hoffman 2:10

5:8,8 23:14

23:15,18

72:15 109:15

hold 170:6

177:9 240:6

holding 71:9

holdings

170:6

holes 26:8

home 105:19
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

165:12 176:8

197:10

243:16

honest 223:12

hood 142:21

Hootman 2:11

5:2,2 21:21

22:3,3 38:9

39:12,18

40:1,3,9,20

41:2 42:20

43:5,22 45:3

46:4,6,10

47:14 48:2

48:16 49:7

52:8 56:15

57:1,6,7 59:3

61:9,21

62:12 63:2

69:10 74:8

74:11 75:13

76:14 79:22

81:13 88:22

89:7,12

93:13 105:6

105:10 106:2

106:6,13

107:2,7,14

108:1 109:12

109:16 110:9

110:19

111:15,19

113:19

120:18 121:7

121:14 126:2

126:15

127:12 129:8

129:12 130:4

130:6,9,13

131:3,6

136:15,20

137:3 140:9

140:16 141:5

141:11,17

142:7,10

143:4,10,15

144:1,11,13

144:21 145:6

145:10,14

146:14 147:1

148:9,16,22

150:12 151:8

151:12

153:15 154:1

154:8,14,20

155:12,20

156:6 159:10

159:17 160:3

161:20 162:6

162:9,16,19

163:4,9

166:18

167:12,14,17

172:21 177:5

178:12 180:2

180:9,13,16

182:11,20

184:8,12,20

185:7,17

186:2,16,20

187:2,10,14

188:3,6,13

188:17

189:19

190:20

191:10

192:13,18

194:3,6,22

195:5,8,17

196:6,16

197:3,7

198:4,12

199:1,7

201:5,19

204:13,18

209:18,21

213:5,9,14

213:18 218:2

219:18 220:2

220:6,12,19

221:4,22

222:21 224:6

225:14,18

226:5 227:3

227:12 228:1

236:8,13

237:16

238:13,16,18

239:4,21

241:1,6,14

242:1,8

243:11 245:7

hope 43:8 96:1

101:16

hopefully

83:12 96:7

172:18 226:9

hoping 123:20

134:8 203:4

horizontal

71:5

horsepower

113:13

host 204:7

hot 57:4

hour 52:19

53:12 138:9

hourly 52:18

hours 34:4

46:13,14

53:5 202:18

however 121:8

210:8 226:17

HR 130:3

166:2 188:10

199:13 240:6

HRI 241:17

243:2

Huang 2:12

huge 55:17

57:2,3

118:15,19

143:8 145:17

157:21

humid 57:4

hundred 11:20

20:18 21:2

21:10 34:12

40:15 99:3

100:11

133:12,15

143:11

194:18,18

237:11

hundreds

141:7 143:11

Hunt 2:13 5:7

5:7 41:22

71:5 126:8

180:6,10,15

180:18

188:18 230:8

235:10,15

236:1

hurt 174:14

HV/AC 60:4

107:15

I

I'd 7:19 23:10

112:6 132:11

177:9 178:4

210:4 222:14

242:4,9,16

I'll 6:1 9:18

38:6 40:11

60:7 68:3

90:2 105:18

105:19 112:2

123:17 149:6

152:13 160:5

171:11,15,15

180:5 204:2

205:18

207:14 208:9

209:17 211:1

211:6,20

220:20

223:12,13,16

229:19

I-beams

195:12

iced 241:7

idea 28:1

89:13 94:20

166:18,19

187:15

211:20

ideal 211:12

ideas 88:20

IEER 37:5,6

40:14,18

43:7 46:16

50:17 51:19

51:22 58:1

58:11,19

59:9 60:4,12

60:15 61:10

61:17 62:6

62:11 64:16

64:20 65:1,3

65:5,15,22

67:11,18,18

67:22 68:16

68:22 69:7

69:15 71:2,8

71:21 72:4

73:7,13 75:8

75:11 76:1,5

76:9 77:7,10

77:10,12,16

77:17 78:4

78:22 79:2,4

79:15,19

81:20 82:8

82:10,13

103:5 115:6

132:3

IER 42:12 43:3

59:13
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

ignore 51:11

53:7 166:6

illustrates

96:7

imagine

143:10

192:11

207:19

impact 10:16

21:15 44:9

55:17 139:21

223:6

impacted

174:13,20

180:7

impacts

179:20

implement

32:1,3

implemented

10:21

implications

203:9

implicit 20:19

important

34:18 37:9

69:16 74:18

81:15 82:5

82:16 84:8,8

99:15 123:19

208:14 210:3

221:14

242:14 245:1

importantly

235:4

impossible

81:11

improvement

21:8 42:13

169:15

improvements

19:4,5 20:2

20:18 38:21

38:22 45:10

49:10

improving

38:19 45:1

115:3

in-between

8:11 193:19

236:8

inactivity

13:11

inappropriate

27:16

inaudible 76:6

inches 193:5

193:14

210:20

incidence

31:10

include 11:15

37:19 90:4

99:20 100:5

104:12,13,13

117:21

135:20

140:14 154:7

157:12 218:9

221:18 237:7

included 91:1

119:10 204:4

includes 71:20

145:4,6

221:20

223:14

233:19

including

158:14

inclusion

156:20

incorporate

245:4

incorporated

101:3

incorporating

85:2

increase 29:13

45:5 51:2,3

53:19 103:18

141:2 142:1

142:5 174:17

174:19

179:18

219:21

231:13

236:19

increased

141:13 174:6

increases 34:7

110:2

increasing

114:21 128:8

219:6

incremental

196:20 236:5

incumbent

209:19

incurring

173:12

174:22

independent

46:8 49:21

independently

45:9

index 102:17

indicated

80:20 155:3

indicates

148:6 162:14

indicating

44:15

indication

120:1

individual

132:4

indoor 6:19

45:21

industrial

154:4 192:6

192:19,19

193:3,13

194:5,12,13

194:15 196:7

198:19 202:5

industrials

196:11

industry 65:6

65:17,17

94:20 115:15

117:22

178:10 229:2

237:18 241:7

ineffective

80:21

inexpensive

120:15,18

infiltration

57:4

influence

156:3

influenced

13:12

influences

13:10,11

155:16

inform 94:7

informal 8:7

86:17

information

10:9 11:17

12:3,16

14:15,21

19:21 24:17

57:22 86:13

88:19 89:4

119:21,22

132:3 137:21

137:21 147:3

155:4,15

161:2,12

163:8 166:17

168:21

176:14 179:4

179:7,9

181:7 187:22

189:11

191:17

200:16 202:7

203:4,7

206:7 211:9

213:6 232:9

inherent 50:2

133:7 147:18

initial 122:7

ink 214:12

inlet 211:14

input 28:14

88:4,4,5,7

89:21 90:21

94:6,18,18

108:15

130:22 163:6

181:5,14

203:8,10

inputs 14:14

83:16 95:14

176:2

inside 148:4

183:12 186:6

186:8,12,14

199:22

237:22 238:6

241:11

install 112:8

128:9 145:18

159:7

installation

24:12 93:6

101:22 103:9

103:15,19

104:4,17

106:2,21,22

112:13,15

126:21 127:1

128:9,19

138:15 139:1

185:20 203:9

203:22

209:12
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

installations

181:16

185:21

installed 84:13

93:2,3

101:21 103:3

103:4,11

104:2,3,6

136:2,6,7

173:8,13

175:8 231:13

231:13,19

installing

104:15 106:9

instance

230:13

instead 28:17

48:8 91:19

165:9 188:10

insulation

193:18 214:1

integral

113:13

integrating

227:9

intended

115:13

intending

208:10

intensive 49:1

intent 191:12

199:17

234:18

interacting

190:7

interest

247:11

interested

50:20

interesting

59:15 83:12

84:7 144:21

interim 236:11

internal 13:17

19:4 145:8

228:19 229:4

237:22 241:4

internally

109:18

internet 110:8

interpret 127:4

interrogatory

168:20

into 10:16 12:3

12:14 13:22

43:8 57:13

70:3,7 82:7

84:15 85:15

87:5 90:5,13

91:1 94:13

95:14 96:9

96:17,20,21

97:2,3 98:15

101:4,17

102:5 112:2

117:14 123:7

125:9 130:21

134:18

137:14 139:7

139:10

143:21 144:1

150:18

159:22

166:20 171:2

171:12,15

172:5 173:1

176:2 187:21

193:20

198:13,19

200:6 201:7

201:14 202:7

203:2,21

204:10,12

209:7,16,22

212:8 216:7

219:6 221:5

226:10 227:9

229:19

231:17 236:2

238:3 239:4

240:13

introduced

161:10,13

introducing

28:21

investigate

56:11

investigating

190:11

investing

227:5

involve 140:6

involved 90:1

127:7 161:17

201:11,12

203:8

IOU 5:7

ir 154:15

ire 45:8

irrelevant 65:4

ISCAxxx

171:20

isn't 41:5 42:7

48:12 56:17

66:10 73:4

86:19 156:6

159:6 186:11

215:17

issue 20:22

21:17 35:5

42:12 48:13

49:2,19

50:12 51:21

51:22 52:13

52:15 76:19

80:17 81:10

88:5 147:18

168:10 182:3

186:4,5,9

202:21

237:13

issued 57:22

issues 28:8

48:1 119:7

124:11

148:18

176:17 177:1

190:3 200:22

204:7

item 28:6

121:13

149:11 188:8

201:15 212:6

items 10:7

148:14 205:6

iteration 234:8

234:9

iterations

234:10

J

James 2:3 5:9

6:21 8:17

101:15 115:9

131:22

243:19 244:3

January 75:7

Javier 4:14

123:21

Jess 160:7

jibe 111:8

jibes 33:10

Jill 2:11 5:2

22:3 61:4

127:12 141:5

150:12 162:7

187:21 192:4

219:16

226:14

240:17

John 2:4 4:13

5:18,20 8:6

10:3 20:13

21:21 22:3

59:4 230:22

230:22 235:6

join 129:5

joint 152:12

JP 197:3

jump 40:14

67:14 79:5

187:16 191:2

198:4 199:19

jumped 40:17

40:17

jumping

150:20

June 21:18

42:12,18

justification

213:21

justified

213:22

K

Karen 2:16

4:20 66:12

69:8 71:16

72:16 103:1

114:10 117:5

120:4 140:1

147:4

Karen's 58:12

Katie 2:6 5:11

15:18 21:7

44:14 95:6

151:18,19

155:5 166:3

177:2 243:19

Katie's 227:10

keep 99:10

111:21

118:11,12

122:15

164:18 242:7

242:8

key 139:17

190:12

kidding 229:11

229:11
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

Kido 5:12,12

57:19,19

kilowatt 138:9

kind 14:22

27:19 29:7

29:14 32:21

44:18 54:15

55:2 56:10

57:7,22

120:2 126:15

134:6 141:19

153:12

156:18 161:8

166:1,16

169:4 182:6

195:12,13

198:8 201:1

210:22 213:4

225:17

226:15

237:11

239:21,22

240:2 241:10

kinds 93:11

136:10 153:8

kit 34:4

knock 224:22

225:1

know 6:10

7:12 8:12

16:6 17:21

17:22 21:3,7

21:12 22:1

22:10,15

23:7,7 29:17

30:2,4,11

33:7,10

34:13 35:11

35:20 36:12

40:2,15

41:11,13,16

42:22 45:20

47:6 49:3

51:6,20

54:10,13

55:7 56:9

59:4,14,19

59:20 65:9

65:17 66:19

67:8,9,12

68:6,13

69:22 70:10

70:11 72:7

74:1 80:10

81:10 82:7

82:11,14,17

82:18 84:7

86:2,10 87:1

87:10,14

88:7,8 90:9

90:15 93:5

93:12,16

94:20 96:15

101:16,20

102:14

103:17

108:12

109:12,22

110:12 111:3

111:4 112:3

114:21 115:9

117:16

118:10,20

120:13,15

121:8,11,11

121:12 122:6

122:7 124:13

129:4,18

130:7,11

132:1 134:5

134:9,12

135:9,11,11

137:19 141:6

141:14 142:3

143:5,14,16

145:15 146:2

147:15

148:16 149:1

154:9 155:2

155:10,10

156:22

157:20 160:7

162:11 165:1

166:5,7

167:1,1,8,20

168:17,18

170:4,6

173:4,6

176:3 177:11

178:1 179:17

180:8 181:17

182:1 191:4

191:15

192:15 193:6

193:18,19,20

194:6,6,9,16

195:13

196:11,22

197:2 198:21

198:22

199:18,19

200:7,13,20

202:19 203:6

203:8 204:9

206:8,15,16

206:18,19

207:3,5

209:2,13

211:4,6

212:16 213:2

214:6 215:1

215:6 218:14

218:17 222:1

222:10

223:10 224:1

225:18

227:14

230:16 231:3

232:4,19

233:10 236:9

238:6,7

239:14,14

240:1 241:18

243:6

knowing 159:9

knows 64:8

169:16

244:13

KW 138:8

L

l 172:14 223:4

labor 92:21

93:8,15,18

93:18 126:22

134:22

146:10 150:6

164:3

labs 86:22

lady 221:10

large 11:3 23:9

51:2 52:14

105:16 120:1

130:4,4

191:22,22

192:10 196:8

196:10 197:1

202:4 223:6

largely 54:12

larger 13:13

13:13 33:3

85:3 97:18

122:14

133:22

197:20 199:6

201:8

last 6:7 15:10

17:1 28:6

31:5,8,8

36:18 94:2

135:16

139:11,13

154:9 157:15

159:8 161:10

165:2 167:21

168:3 193:21

206:6 207:2

229:12,16

237:13

243:15

245:15

lasts 162:5

late 167:20

latent 55:22

later 64:18

68:1 84:19

88:7 90:20

91:5 93:20

94:10,17

123:22

latest 27:8

62:2,3,7

65:15,18

76:9 79:11

81:20 188:10

law 22:12

49:19 136:21

lawyers

227:16 228:3

228:12

LBNL 5:10,11

35:4,9 89:20

110:6 205:9

218:19

LCC 11:3,3

12:10,11,12

12:18,19

57:13 173:11

209:7 233:19

233:19 244:5

244:12

LCL 156:22

LDC 9:16

leaks 185:4

lease 164:19

165:22

leases 164:20

least 55:5

67:14 76:8

81:16 101:20
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

133:5 155:3

161:2 173:8

175:10

178:18 204:2

228:22

244:21

leave 177:18

193:22 240:5

leaving 201:11

led 232:10

left 34:6 52:13

96:11 173:2

174:15

175:14 226:9

236:17

legal 58:16

length 58:16

190:20

211:13

Lennox 116:11

121:22

189:20

less 37:11

38:18 47:4

47:17,17

51:19 116:1

116:2 118:19

119:3,5,6

120:8 121:9

122:9 125:19

131:17 146:1

147:12

151:11

171:22 182:8

183:21 193:3

193:3 195:17

195:18

197:14,20

202:3 216:8

229:4 233:17

242:21,22

level 6:17,18

7:1,8 23:11

27:9 40:8

41:4 45:1

68:12 76:6

93:2 96:11

96:16,22

97:4 98:1

103:2,2,4

104:22

105:15 106:7

106:10

107:10 115:7

115:15 116:7

117:17,18

118:12,22

122:16

128:11,22

131:9,20,22

132:3 135:10

144:2 147:11

147:13

163:17 172:5

172:8,8,9,15

173:11,14

184:14 191:3

195:13

198:20 231:4

231:11

232:13,15

levels 6:6,8

7:2 30:12,18

36:19 40:7

42:2 45:15

46:16 47:2

48:6 66:18

83:17 84:1,2

84:5,10

85:10 86:21

97:5 100:17

117:4,11

121:10

122:17

128:11

132:15

137:13

150:10

157:21

173:15

175:11

190:14

199:15 237:2

239:5

leverage 143:3

Lewis 104:20

209:15

212:16

Lieu 92:9

130:5

life 10:15,16

83:13,16

90:5,13 91:1

91:8,12 92:5

95:14,16

118:18

130:21 144:9

144:10

145:13 150:2

150:15,16,18

152:19,22

158:8 161:12

161:18 163:1

163:21 165:8

165:11,15

173:18 174:9

174:9 175:5

175:12 176:2

223:3,3

life-cycle

173:9

lifetime 12:17

90:11 91:3,3

91:4,15,20

92:9,12

95:20 150:5

151:7,10,17

152:8 153:5

153:14,21

154:13,15,19

155:2,6

157:5,10,10

157:16,19

158:1,4,11

158:14,16

161:3 169:13

173:9,18

174:5 175:4

223:18 226:8

228:19,20

229:4 236:19

lifetime's

158:4

lifetimes

151:21 158:9

158:21

lift 105:13,14

105:20

lifting 105:22

111:22 112:1

226:14

light 182:18

185:1,7

192:5 193:7

194:5

lighter 193:2

like 4:5 7:19

9:4,6,21

17:13 18:1

21:4 22:22

23:4 40:16

47:12,21

48:10 51:18

57:5,7 59:9

59:10,20

61:8 65:10

65:11 71:22

74:4 76:4,7

79:10 86:11

87:17,17

88:21 95:19

99:1 100:11

110:14 124:9

130:2 132:19

132:22 136:9

139:19 140:4

145:18

146:10,12,17

147:21 148:2

149:9 153:11

154:12

156:15

159:11

162:12,13,14

165:16,17

167:5 168:2

174:6 176:13

176:14,17

181:22,22

182:19

183:17,20

188:21

189:10 192:7

193:11,19

194:11

195:14,20

196:1 197:10

197:17,22

198:16 199:4

203:9 208:12

209:8 222:2

223:18 228:2

228:2 233:8

234:18 235:5

235:6,9

236:5,11

237:5 238:9

239:22 242:4

242:9,16,20

likely 13:15

145:3 146:13

212:13

219:14

242:11 244:7

limitations

25:10

limited 12:3

152:4 242:10

line 5:15,17,21

45:13 71:13
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

135:14

149:11

192:19

193:13 200:5

linear 28:16

167:16 201:6

lines 102:7

192:9,13,14

194:12,13

198:5,14

203:20

link 44:4 46:16

lipstick 125:21

126:2

list 10:19

11:14 13:18

94:3 154:13

159:13,16

203:17 205:7

208:15 209:5

209:12 212:9

230:9

list.xx 230:10

listed 119:18

119:19

Listen 32:1

244:19

literally 105:1

109:6 238:4

little 9:4 26:18

32:16,18

36:12 52:4

60:7 80:3,13

83:12 114:14

124:4,4

131:15,16

136:6 145:21

148:5 154:15

154:16 159:4

167:6 175:3

175:13 177:7

179:11 193:6

206:10 210:8

211:18 219:2

228:2 237:15

238:5,7,8

239:12

live 161:22

162:21

load 13:11

15:4 18:4,7

18:14,20

22:16,19

24:20 25:19

28:8 34:22

35:1,6,9

44:11 52:13

52:19,21

53:4,13,15

53:16 54:2,4

54:10 55:1,1

56:14 99:4

115:4 154:10

174:3 208:13

237:1

loaded 53:12

loading 10:12

56:10

loads 13:17

14:12 19:4

21:16,16,18

25:18 33:2,5

208:14,22

209:2

local 107:4

location 11:10

12:6

locked 88:15

236:2

logic 78:20

logical 216:2

logistical

244:15

long 2:12

11:14 27:22

45:8 65:2,14

152:10,18

153:2 154:9

154:15,16

163:8 167:21

183:2 193:21

225:17 228:6

long-term 50:3

longer 124:4

150:15 151:2

151:5,6

153:13 155:2

161:3 162:5

165:3 179:19

229:12

245:14

look 18:2

19:10 29:7

34:7 36:18

36:22 37:3

40:12 44:3

48:8 51:18

64:15 68:18

72:11 77:10

79:2,4,4 87:5

88:21 90:21

112:2,21

122:4,10

128:1 129:15

140:18

142:21 149:3

152:22 154:4

162:1 166:21

167:3 170:4

171:12,15,15

171:16

175:12

187:21 195:7

195:14

196:12,19

198:15,16

199:9,12,13

199:17

209:17,22

210:17,22

211:15 212:7

212:20

218:19 219:6

221:15 224:2

227:5 229:19

230:14

235:16 243:3

looked 6:6

12:11 27:21

110:17,17,19

110:22 112:7

127:13 149:8

162:14

164:15 232:4

looking 6:7

9:10 55:9

59:11 66:18

67:10 83:18

83:22 88:4

94:18 102:16

104:21

108:17

113:14

122:17 132:8

136:4 137:20

141:12

160:17

161:18

179:16,18,21

179:22 181:4

187:17

190:12 195:3

198:13

201:17

209:16

216:21

226:22

231:15

240:13

looks 11:3,5

18:1 162:12

189:7

Lord 2:14

86:14

lords 30:2

losers 232:22

lost 128:4

191:5

lost-cost

136:14

lot 15:7 18:16

20:1 22:15

27:16 28:3

29:13 30:6

34:19 40:14

43:21 47:12

57:3 66:22

84:22 95:4

95:22 108:21

109:1 112:3

127:20 143:6

143:19

145:11

148:17

150:22 163:1

163:1 164:22

165:15 170:2

181:16 193:8

195:17,18

196:13

197:21

202:15

209:14

210:15,18

211:10 215:3

222:3 226:2

226:8 236:10

236:18

lots 9:4 42:17

227:5

Lou 31:4

Louis 2:21 5:6

16:1 18:19

23:21 25:1

80:11 85:4

88:5 91:9

97:8 98:12

111:9 112:6

136:1 147:20

152:5 176:12
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

185:22

198:10

215:14

217:17

Louis's 44:6

love 151:12

227:16

low 47:9 98:22

107:12

129:10

141:10,18

155:18 184:9

184:17

208:14 209:1

215:2

low-cost 137:1

low-level

106:13

107:16

lower 21:18

33:9 37:12

37:17 38:4

46:14 106:14

114:15

117:17 121:4

133:10

174:10 183:9

197:17

lower-cost

120:22

lowest 219:3

lowneyxxx

208:11

lunch 80:13

124:4 176:9

176:20

178:14,16

M

M 77:9 175:15

Macy's 197:3,8

made 10:4,5

11:6 23:7

58:8,8 66:22

76:4 133:5

145:16 174:1

206:17 232:2

magnitude

36:3,16 39:5

42:7 55:6

92:20

mailed 243:12

main 4:10

14:14 15:14

mainly 183:14

198:1

maintenance

139:16,20

140:5 141:2

142:5,14,15

142:16 219:6

219:20

major 9:6 89:1

89:2 140:6

158:16

makes 30:1

53:8 69:19

81:11 89:19

163:19 209:3

236:9

making 6:11

36:14 39:6

58:8,10

62:13 81:15

125:11 152:2

152:12 164:6

169:1 193:17

197:2 223:11

manual 210:14

manufacture

115:6 176:15

189:22

198:22 199:3

199:4

manufacturer

37:15 40:7

75:2 77:18

80:17 82:12

89:1,2,2

102:1 117:21

160:16

166:15

manufacture...

56:13 60:2

69:1 80:12

81:2,5,8 88:8

110:4 115:14

122:19,21

132:4 153:13

161:19 190:8

226:16,21

227:10

229:14

241:20

manufactures

73:6 189:18

manufacturi...

116:13

161:15

196:12,13

227:7 238:5

241:15

many 11:9

15:1 38:21

59:22 120:2

129:21 130:8

130:11,11

148:17 153:3

165:18

168:21 202:8

mapped 99:18

mapping

101:17

march 35:4

72:2

Marchetti 3:16

5:18

marching

67:21

margin 112:10

116:18

marginal

138:4,7,8

margins

161:15

mark 3:3

203:15,16

205:1 210:12

market 88:10

88:11 94:19

117:12

155:15,17,18

156:1,3

172:11 194:4

230:6 242:11

markets

111:17

195:18

marking 102:3

markup 92:21

116:13,18

117:1

markups

102:4 117:4

Marshall 2:13

5:7

mas 174:2

Master 3:16

match 156:4

material 93:10

232:17

materials

179:22

math 188:7

232:5

mathematical

56:10

matrix 25:5

26:10

matter 41:7

68:7 166:4

190:21

220:10 226:3

matters

218:12

max 35:17

maxed 240:1

maximum

28:13 100:11

189:8

may 1:7 7:18

33:4 43:13

44:16 48:22

50:7 54:12

54:18 56:12

64:14 110:16

110:16

117:21 134:1

134:4 146:14

146:14

147:17 152:1

178:2 207:7

239:15

maybe 20:16

31:22 41:15

41:20 43:15

45:6 46:14

69:16 76:7

80:10,11,12

80:17 84:7

93:20 121:11

122:8 131:2

133:9 134:3

134:11

137:11

141:12

146:15,20

148:18

163:17

164:22

172:19

173:16

176:16,20,21

177:21

181:13,20

191:2,14

193:7,7

199:10 202:2

204:2 208:4

210:8 211:1
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

212:17 215:7

225:4 229:21

236:1 245:6

McCabe 2:15

5:13,13

64:13,13

68:4,5 69:2

77:3,3 78:8

78:12,17

79:1 176:15

McCRUDDEN

126:13,19,21

127:22

146:21 147:2

mean 8:21

16:21 23:16

30:7 36:2

43:2,14

46:19 49:4

50:18 58:15

62:21 63:3

63:12 72:3

80:4 84:8

86:5 92:15

108:5 109:8

118:9 120:1

124:11 129:9

134:4 139:8

143:8 145:20

145:22

153:18 155:8

156:7,8

158:2 167:7

173:21 181:5

183:10,13

185:1 198:8

199:17 200:7

206:20

214:17

216:12 222:4

223:10

225:20

233:10

235:19

meaning 18:13

174:9

means 37:2

53:17 54:2

93:9,11,15

99:19 101:18

135:1 138:16

138:17 139:2

139:3,17

144:6,16,17

146:5,6,7

148:5,12

149:4,8,14

150:6 153:19

156:17 163:5

210:2,4

221:12,14,18

222:10,14

223:13,17

224:5,8

231:2

meant 23:17

193:4,5

measure 68:11

77:22 78:3

231:3 233:5

measured

187:14,15

measureme...

49:20 211:2

measures

77:12

measuring

77:14,16

mechanical

156:18

164:13

mechanics

155:22

median 111:18

111:20 155:8

167:7 230:16

233:7,10,16

233:18 234:6

234:12

Mediation 4:12

4:15

medium 91:4

231:7

meen 234:2

meet 42:16

53:6 55:1

58:16

meeting 1:5

10:20 35:4

51:9 68:12

95:3 111:12

146:20

159:22 246:3

meets 215:13

Meg 3:5 5:18

5:20 131:4,6

members 5:16

memory 10:7

mental 211:1

mentally

211:16

mention 21:7

mentioned

10:3 14:20

34:16

merit 232:7

mess 82:9

message

245:13

messed 35:12

messes 165:9

metal 88:20

154:3,4

193:3

method 62:15

70:6,8,11

73:17 78:14

108:11

158:21

161:14

244:22

methodology

62:15

metric 43:3

49:19 58:22

60:4,10 65:5

66:19,21

68:9 69:7

72:19,22

73:7,12,13

78:10 79:15

81:5,19

82:11 240:7

metrics 67:18

82:9

Meyers 2:16

4:20,20

43:19 59:4

59:18 60:16

60:22 61:4

61:11,18

63:9,15,18

63:21 64:2,6

64:8 65:8

66:1,17 67:4

67:8 69:22

70:13 71:11

72:17 73:2,5

73:11,22

74:6,19 75:1

75:17 80:16

81:14 83:7,9

92:14,17

102:22

114:10

115:17,21

140:1 141:16

142:2,8,15

147:4,9,17

160:7,14,17

220:11,16,20

225:20

230:20

mic 6:4

Michael 2:15

2:20 5:12,18

5:20 64:13

68:3,4 77:3

78:6 79:13

79:15 245:13

micro 207:3,4

207:13

microproce...

106:8

microproce...

106:17

mics 245:12

might 26:14

40:9,10 47:9

47:14 56:3

94:21 101:19

110:10,11,20

114:14

127:22 136:6

161:14 167:4

167:6 168:4

179:15

182:21,22

183:1 191:13

192:7,11

199:4 207:22

209:15 226:3

226:19

227:10 238:4

238:18 239:9

241:6

Mike 5:13

57:19 58:6

mild 193:16

mile 221:8

miles 163:10

million 15:20

139:20 242:6

mind 21:3,16

80:7 99:10

99:12 109:8

111:21

122:13,15

161:8 210:5

minimal
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

147:15

minimis

242:13

minimize

215:16

minimum

28:12 55:3

228:8

minor 146:19

244:15

minus 53:13

182:19

minute 49:17

118:9 240:6

minutes 57:17

178:18,21

misbehaving

183:6

Mislak 2:17

4:21,21 95:1

207:1,7,10

207:18,21

245:5

missed 131:8

missing 26:15

misundersta...

73:17

mix 166:1

mixes 214:22

mixing 215:6

mocker 172:5

mod 169:11

mode 28:13

55:13

model 19:7

29:18,22

30:3 31:15

31:16 33:15

33:20 43:15

47:6,8,10

48:11,20,21

119:16 122:1

151:22 155:7

160:2 166:3

226:11

244:21

modeled

110:16

modeling 13:6

22:18 226:15

244:9

models 7:8

47:3,3,17,20

49:5,9

114:18,19

115:10

119:20 161:9

161:11

205:21

moderate 20:3

moderated

177:8

moderates

29:14

modify 50:17

72:12 130:20

169:10

202:12

modifying

61:22

modxxx 207:4

moisture

56:18

moment 15:5

20:15 70:9

money 125:16

125:19 164:6

165:10 227:5

monitoring

185:20

Monte 95:10

95:10 234:8

month 62:3

178:2

monthly 160:9

160:9

months 81:6

moon 83:5

more 4:8 15:15

17:3 20:3

21:3 23:10

28:10 30:9

37:5,16 38:7

44:16 46:12

48:22 50:10

52:20 53:11

53:20 55:19

56:13 57:8

60:19 62:13

69:5,8,20

72:8 80:14

83:12 87:17

90:15,16,17

105:3,9,21

106:3,4,8,9

107:9 112:11

114:21 115:1

115:1 118:19

119:6 120:6

121:15,16,20

122:13 126:5

132:8 135:4

135:20

140:20 142:2

142:4,4,7,8

142:10,11,19

145:7,11

146:13,17,18

146:19

151:11,22

153:10,11

154:1 162:1

162:3 163:16

164:3,4

165:14

166:14 167:5

167:9 168:6

169:12

171:22

176:18

178:18 182:7

182:8,16

188:21

190:11

191:16

192:15,19

193:6,6,15

194:9,11,12

194:18 198:1

202:18,20

212:1 214:16

215:6 219:2

221:6,9

223:15,16

230:4 233:13

233:14

234:21 235:4

235:16 236:7

236:19

240:13

243:18 245:7

morning 4:2

10:19

morphed

200:6

most 13:2,2

37:2 54:13

55:10 110:4

111:16 113:7

122:21

140:12 158:4

164:9 171:8

195:20

196:22

197:17 210:3

215:8 244:7

mostly 26:16

motor 148:18

148:18 165:5

motors 113:13

120:20

148:17 149:1

149:10

move 10:22

30:21 50:8

50:22 62:5

65:21 66:13

72:2,13 83:9

90:2 112:16

126:11

134:14

137:16,16

139:6 145:21

149:17 172:6

moved 235:2

moving 33:21

35:16 67:19

80:9 96:8

159:5 169:18

203:1

much 5:21

12:3 15:4,9

16:3,4 23:10

28:10 31:8

32:12,13

33:9 38:4,19

38:22 39:1

97:18 99:11

100:11

105:15,20

118:8 139:2

140:20

150:15 162:5

163:19 165:2

167:2 170:6

176:10

178:15 186:9

187:11,12

192:19 194:9

194:11 200:3

200:7 201:9

210:6 215:6

219:15 236:9

239:7 244:17

multi-story

27:15

multiple 35:16

47:2 52:22

multiplier 26:1

26:3
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

14:11 24:9

multiply 26:1,2

53:18

must 138:18

mute 146:15

146:22

N

N 2:1 3:1 4:1

nah 154:2

name 4:3

206:3 208:10

212:14

national 10:16

18:12 20:4

146:7 242:14

natural 239:1

nature 192:20

Navigant 4:17

5:9 6:22 29:4

51:7 89:3,10

227:12

NDA226:16,19

227:12

near 145:12

near-end-of-...

145:12

nearing 44:4

nearly 187:11

necessarily

31:21 32:15

46:18 53:20

59:7 108:12

118:19

135:11 153:7

158:16 162:6

184:1,2

199:3 214:7

necessary

84:17 100:5

104:14

131:17

134:17

need 9:11,12

10:17 30:20

30:21 31:1

32:14,15

45:9 49:17

52:20 53:3

60:2 70:1,12

71:17,22

72:12 73:2

75:5 79:8

80:2 84:18

86:22,22

98:8 100:4

114:14 119:8

119:9 123:22

124:6,13

129:5 133:4

176:6 179:5

179:6,8

182:8,18

183:22 184:2

184:17,18

191:8 199:7

200:4 202:11

202:12 209:9

214:11

215:21 220:7

242:13

244:16,17

245:2

needed 55:4

131:17

219:12,13

needs 27:12

31:21 42:16

42:17 73:5

75:3 81:6

101:10

176:22 179:9

208:5 233:15

negative 41:4

109:16

150:22

negatively

174:13

negotiated

81:15

negotiating

72:4 239:15

negotiation

50:6 65:11

67:6 69:16

73:8

negotiations

8:16

neither 114:4

247:9

net 173:12

174:17

175:17

never 42:2

59:5 82:17

115:22 116:2

116:2 187:14

187:15

new 6:5 7:16

10:10 14:20

16:18 17:1,3

17:4,10 19:9

19:11,16

25:14,15,20

31:8,11,17

31:20 32:6,9

32:12,13,17

33:3 36:5

51:7 54:7

60:4 62:15

65:14 70:4,7

70:10,14,15

70:17 73:7

73:13 74:17

75:13 76:5

80:5 81:3,5

81:11 111:15

124:20

151:20 163:4

163:10 165:7

166:2 177:15

226:12 235:2

239:9,10

newer 16:4

77:13,15

next 6:12 11:1

17:3,4 18:3

23:21,22

50:6 57:11

57:12 60:21

68:20 81:22

84:13 90:3

92:2 95:3

96:12 97:13

99:15 103:9

103:14 104:3

104:11

111:12 128:2

146:20 147:3

149:18

150:20,21

156:1,7

159:22

160:21 164:6

165:21 167:1

169:19

171:16

172:14,18

175:14

177:15,19

188:8 201:15

205:12 212:6

219:5 220:13

226:7 235:11

236:2 237:9

243:21

244:14 246:2

nice 9:9 30:8

205:20

niche 238:15

Nick 2:17 4:21

night 6:7 50:6

206:6 218:17

243:15

nine 13:20

20:2 25:3

171:9

NIST 143:3

Nobody 64:8

nodding 65:20

nods 101:14

190:1

noise 146:12

204:8

non-compre...

90:18 147:21

noncompres...

144:4 149:20

221:6,19

222:8,13

nondiscount...

234:2,3,5

none 98:5

nonweatheri...

241:5

noon 178:17

noose 166:19

Nope 130:9

NOPR 8:11,11

8:19 9:1,2,10

14:1 28:14

34:3,5 35:1

35:21 61:6

63:20,21

64:3 67:2,3

67:21 83:20

90:4,19 91:3

91:17 102:4

102:4 108:6

118:5,15

127:13

137:19

138:11

139:14 155:1

170:1,14,14

172:1,7

174:7,11

175:3,11,17

189:6,9

230:14,17,22
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

236:12,13

239:12

240:12

NOPRs 14:15

nor 42:14

53:12 54:2

90:6 114:3,4

214:8 234:11

246:1 247:10

Nordstrom's

197:4,8

normal 8:8,15

60:10 92:8

128:9 140:5

north 157:16

northern

183:17

northwest

13:22 17:13

northxxx

153:20

note 6:16 7:4

9:6,7 11:7,16

13:16,18

14:9 20:14

23:8,12

24:22 29:5,5

31:18 41:6

42:4,5,7 44:9

44:9 46:14

50:8 52:1

53:14 54:17

54:17 61:17

66:21 67:19

67:19 68:4,4

68:5 72:1,1

76:6 80:22

83:4 84:21

90:7,8 94:1,1

95:19,20,21

97:3,3,20

98:19 100:18

103:1,1,4

112:2 120:3

120:3,10,11

122:2,3

123:16,16

146:11,11

147:9 149:19

155:4,7

157:16 160:4

161:16

162:14,15

169:7 171:17

171:17 173:1

173:1 174:15

175:8,19,19

181:1 186:1

186:10 193:1

193:1 204:5

206:3,3

208:6,6,10

211:3,3

212:14,14,17

214:12

215:22 218:9

224:3,3

225:8 230:7

233:17

234:18

239:10

242:18

245:20,21

noted 61:6

83:8 150:6

230:22

NOTEierier

61:16

NOTEnamexx

86:15

notes 66:9

138:13

187:21 204:1

219:19

nothing 59:10

59:13 75:13

78:4 112:9

168:14,15

notice 58:3

noticed 6:7

November 7:4

nowhere 77:16

number 7:3

11:3,15

12:21 16:3

18:6,22 20:4

20:10 21:3,9

28:11 29:7

34:15,18

35:22 38:12

41:9,12

54:22 55:16

69:19 75:17

108:2 133:22

134:7 143:18

149:2 152:15

153:12,18

169:13,16,16

202:10

210:11 212:4

224:17

226:20 227:8

227:10,22

232:21 233:9

233:20 239:1

number.xxxx

9:16

numbers 8:1

9:16 18:12

19:20 21:4,5

21:12 22:19

30:19 33:21

34:3,16

36:15 41:10

43:2 46:21

46:22 48:9

48:10 49:10

50:21 51:10

63:7 67:10

72:4,10,12

112:3 116:15

122:4 124:7

124:9 127:14

127:16 166:4

166:12

172:13,20

173:4 175:20

177:15

184:15 194:8

202:14 210:6

212:2 224:21

225:2 226:17

229:5 230:13

230:14

231:15 232:5

232:11

235:16 236:3

236:15

242:12

numerator

233:6

nur 50:20

O

O 4:1

object 124:16

obviously

50:18 144:20

173:4 174:19

223:21

occasionally

26:14 32:22

183:21

occupancy

11:16 25:3

occurrence

200:9

occurs 113:17

144:8 221:2

odd 128:1

odds 80:7

off 4:9,10 16:6

53:10 56:19

62:19 63:11

83:13,19

133:2 153:19

154:18

159:12

162:17

169:13 177:9

186:15

211:12

220:16,20

245:14

offer 112:7

offers 208:19

office 13:1

25:14,15,20

27:21 28:2

30:3 196:8

officer 247:3

offices 32:22

193:7

official 59:10

59:13,16

61:12 66:20

67:1,2

185:14,18

officially 60:3

often 113:11

181:19 211:4

211:6

oh 19:1 24:5

62:16 100:22

167:12 184:5

230:4

oil 189:13,18

189:21

oil-fired 189:7

OIM 186:2

okay 5:20,22

9:17,20 10:3

11:1 16:9

19:14 22:19

23:13,18

24:5,10 25:8

26:13,16,17

27:4 28:6

30:18 31:4

31:19 33:14
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

37:2 70:16

71:3 83:7,11

86:7 87:20

88:2 90:2

91:21 92:17

101:6,13

104:1 108:13

119:11

122:18

123:18 130:5

131:7 149:15

149:17 151:8

163:3 169:17

178:20 188:2

189:16 190:4

191:2 199:1

199:7 207:6

212:6,17

216:11,12

222:5 224:4

226:18 229:6

229:9 231:21

234:7,16

235:15,18

237:10 240:1

240:3

old 15:6 17:11

19:11 24:1

33:3 158:7

165:17 234:2

241:1

older 16:5

oldest 133:18

once 68:5

71:10 79:22

166:2 185:16

186:14 187:8

201:21

217:13

222:17 230:6

one's 103:13

one-stage

35:15 100:12

one-third 54:4

ones 15:17

47:4,7 48:7

106:14

119:18,19

146:19 189:7

195:15 196:7

236:8

online 87:6

onto 154:18

184:22

205:18

open 245:11

opening 86:8

openings

179:8

operating 11:6

28:20 169:21

170:9 173:5

173:9,17,18

174:6 175:5

231:12,20

236:19

operation

190:10

operator

105:20

opinion 119:9

222:16,18

opinions

204:3

opportunity

42:17

opposed 37:4

45:15 87:13

101:7 129:17

172:9

optimistic

21:13 227:11

optimized 55:3

option 45:1

135:3 136:14

137:1,1

141:18 219:4

options 193:9

193:15,15

194:20

order 36:15

53:6 54:13

55:6 72:13

89:20 92:20

99:4 108:20

125:1 135:6

176:7 198:20

204:9 244:17

organize 243:2

original 6:17

91:10

originally

187:17

otherwise

70:17 82:6

179:20

247:11

ours 229:12

outcome

175:21

247:12

outdoor

148:18 183:9

237:21

outfit 134:21

outlet 211:14

outlined 57:22

outside 237:21

outstanding

176:22

over 6:1 10:18

47:2 53:16

58:11,14,17

74:1 102:21

118:9,10

138:3 139:13

146:5 148:20

151:10 153:3

162:3 164:19

165:22 179:7

185:6 210:13

223:2 228:12

233:6 244:8

overall 141:13

overly 32:21

overpredicted

237:3

oversize 133:1

oversizing

133:7

overstating

21:12

own 210:22

232:6

owner 91:11

165:12

ownership

11:12

owns 157:11

P

P 2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1

p.m 246:4

Pacific 13:21

20:3

package

196:20

page 46:20

80:5 100:16

pages 204:1

panels 185:3

193:18

195:12

paradigm

218:10

parallel 206:1

parking 238:9

part 22:10

32:16 43:3,7

54:13 56:4

60:18 61:5

62:1,5,6

73:18 77:11

78:11 80:18

80:22 81:7

81:15 82:6

82:19 89:21

115:3 118:14

119:19

142:13

154:21 178:6

183:17

197:12 227:1

239:15

241:22 242:3

242:22

Participants

71:4,9

particular

43:13 68:7,9

68:12 124:11

232:13

234:11

238:22

particularly

27:20 55:20

132:21 178:9

203:18

208:14

parties 247:10

partition 194:4

partitioning

194:7

partly 12:2

parts 50:21,22

65:6 148:8,9

pass 48:22

227:21

passes 48:14

49:12

past 86:16

158:11

patch 26:15

path 59:7 60:1

60:5,10,14

67:13 68:7

85:5 115:15

115:16

123:22 176:7
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

240:2,3

paths 83:21

102:8

pattern 43:2

56:14

Paul 2:9 100:8

235:21

pay 102:5

164:21

232:20

payback 83:13

83:17 95:16

173:5 174:7

175:3,9

230:13,15,16

230:19

231:10

232:14 233:6

233:7,18,21

234:1,4,6,10

234:20

paybacks

231:1,7,8,9

paying 153:15

164:6

paypack 233:4

peak 167:4

170:19

peer 147:11

penetration

23:8

Penney's

197:4

people 5:15

22:12 65:20

110:11

111:14

118:10,11

128:4,5

153:1 159:12

163:21

164:17

189:14

204:11

232:10,22

235:2 237:17

per 24:20

25:19 34:4

82:15 119:3

128:12

135:15,19,19

135:22 138:9

147:12

173:22

199:18

202:18

percent 15:17

16:7,8,22

17:3,3,10,11

17:13 18:13

18:14 20:5,6

20:8,19 21:2

21:8,10 22:6

34:11,12

35:12 40:17

40:18,19

42:3 54:9,19

55:10 85:13

86:18 87:10

87:16 93:2,3

98:7,16,17

99:3,4,6

100:2 119:3

125:6,9

129:17,22

133:9,13,15

134:11 146:4

150:1,2

159:1,9

170:10,15,18

170:19 171:9

173:12

174:11,16

175:16

179:22 181:2

186:13 194:9

194:11,15,16

197:15 202:2

202:10

211:12

214:11,13,18

214:19 216:6

216:8,8,9,15

216:17 217:8

217:12,22

235:17

percentage

16:4 27:7

53:5 131:12

132:15,16,17

161:22 200:3

percentages

14:16

perfectly 55:3

perforated

135:13

performance

39:3 115:11

193:4 203:5

203:19 239:5

performing

95:15

perhaps 214:6

period 8:12

17:10 18:9

18:13 24:3

32:12 83:14

102:21 155:3

168:1 173:5

175:3,9

231:10 234:7

234:11

periods 83:17

174:7

persistance

23:3

person 107:16

165:13

personal

119:9

personally

86:21 87:17

perspective

59:8 62:22

81:16 127:15

196:17

pertains 83:21

Pete 2:5

Peterson 1:18

247:3,16

phase 160:13

philosophical

233:3 234:19

phone 110:7

phrasing

221:21

pick 6:15 44:1

47:18 77:19

134:7

picked 43:14

picking 95:18

picture 15:5

piece 34:20

70:20 109:4

118:12 164:4

195:3

pieces 76:15

147:22 148:2

195:9

pig 125:21

126:2 233:8

pins 130:3

pipe 186:21

187:4

piping 186:22

pitch 163:19

183:1

place 50:10

126:4 146:4

213:4

placed 11:4

237:22

places 137:6

plan 10:12

43:9 229:10

229:11,15

planning

227:2,6

228:19 229:8

plant 196:12

plants 196:13

238:5

plate 155:6

play 166:18

204:12

players 195:17

plea 160:5

plotting 49:18

139:11

plugs 221:9

plus 13:21

44:21 92:21

101:21

116:13

142:19 167:5

229:10

point 9:9,18,21

21:1,19 23:7

44:6 47:15

51:5 54:9

58:13 65:10

65:13 76:18

78:10 84:8

85:13 90:11

98:13 102:14

111:20 119:8

132:20 152:3

155:19

161:20,21

164:6 167:11

181:17 197:2

201:1 217:12

235:22 236:5

242:18

pointed 8:17

23:6 120:5

229:18

pointing 8:13

219:16

235:22
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

points 169:12

213:20 230:2

policy 215:16

poof 177:17

poor 155:15

pop 177:22

populated

236:15

populating

28:3 173:6

population

13:4 181:3

portion 104:9

165:20

182:14

Portland

111:11,19,20

position 22:11

58:1 83:6

88:18 192:12

positive 218:3

possibility

56:2

possible

125:17 180:7

180:11

possibly 38:17

105:6 221:1

potential

47:22 179:20

183:16 239:2

potentially

47:11 108:18

111:13

186:13 203:8

208:3 215:3

221:20 222:9

pounds

105:12,16,17

111:5

power 28:9,15

28:18 29:4

29:13 34:10

36:8,11

39:21 46:7

46:12 67:11

powered 219:1

powers 120:3

practical

216:12

practicality

163:9

practice

212:21

215:14,15

217:18

218:15,18

pre-1979 14:6

precedent

220:15,18

predict 31:13

predicted

15:16

predicting

31:10 33:9

premium

112:7 194:14

premiumness

112:8

prepare 9:5

prescribed

40:3

present 3:16

10:10 92:2

144:9 146:1

244:20

presentation

160:1

presented

131:22

136:15

154:22

177:19

presenting

88:6

pressure

29:14 30:6

30:10,15,16

30:20 37:10

38:14 44:8

98:22 203:5

203:14 205:1

205:3,22

206:8,19

208:17

pressures

29:22 38:15

174:2

presume

65:16

pretty 15:4,14

34:18 49:21

59:13 67:1,2

92:10 120:20

134:20

149:15

159:14

163:18

169:12

210:10,10

238:19,20

previous

10:20 18:15

24:16

previously

28:11 61:3

232:4

price 13:10,13

88:20 89:6,9

101:22 102:5

102:16,16

103:7,14

104:3 109:10

111:4,7

112:12

114:12

115:18,19,20

116:2 128:15

129:21 130:1

133:19

135:18

137:19,20

138:5,7,9

141:10

143:16 144:7

144:8 150:9

154:6

priced 109:2,3

prices 102:6

102:19,20

105:2 111:11

117:21

128:16

137:18 139:7

139:8 143:13

pricey 195:1

pricing 89:8

89:21 112:2

138:15

primarily

129:20

primary

204:22

primitive

233:4

prior 20:7 66:9

173:20

175:22

private 58:18

probability

95:15,18

probably 18:2

21:3,18

32:21 41:17

56:1 82:10

87:6 88:17

95:5 106:10

107:16 117:6

117:8 122:20

124:15,22

125:3,15,19

126:7 129:15

133:10,17

134:4 141:17

143:6 148:2

155:15

159:21

163:20

165:13

175:20

176:18

181:16

183:20,21

184:17 185:8

185:11 196:4

202:12 210:3

210:4 215:7

220:2,9,10

224:1 239:14

243:17

problem 41:22

46:16 50:2

51:12,13

56:9 67:7

115:21

130:10

211:10 215:5

problems

42:14 95:19

165:14

procedure

28:22 29:1

34:10,21

37:7,19 38:4

38:18 39:2

44:20 48:14

48:22 49:3

49:12 50:17

59:22 61:1

61:12,13

62:19 63:10

63:22 64:2

64:15,16,17

64:20,21,22

68:17 70:2

70:14 73:5,9

75:19 77:8,9

77:11 78:21

79:3 80:19

81:4,18,21
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

82:16 83:3

168:12

245:16

procedures

63:1,11 65:1

67:17 78:13

180:14

proceedings

247:4,6,7

proceeds 45:8

process 9:13

51:8,9 66:5,7

69:7,11,13

69:13 76:8

78:10 79:12

80:19 81:1

82:7 96:1

208:21

processes

228:19

produce 18:6

56:6

produced

161:9 214:5

producing

119:2 183:5

183:6 187:13

product 7:8,13

75:3,11 78:2

82:8,12,14

118:8 119:3

150:3 151:6

172:4,15

173:21

192:13,14

194:21 198:5

198:14

229:19

239:10,13

product's

150:5

production

102:2 118:21

products 73:7

119:15 171:6

171:7,8

187:18

profession

133:19

profit 112:10

program 74:20

75:22 78:7

82:4

programmed

22:1

programming

106:9

project 5:4

16:10 17:2

26:21 27:9

32:11 103:18

139:7

projected 31:9

projectile

204:19

projection

14:3,22 19:5

33:11

projections

14:19 31:7

161:18

promise

163:18

promised

178:11,12

proper 80:18

185:19

property

185:21

proponent

123:5

proportion

29:20 31:1

38:3

proportional

54:14 152:20

proposal 58:9

239:11

propose

241:17

proposed

57:20 58:2,3

59:1 60:10

62:3 66:3

67:4 68:6

69:18 76:18

188:11

proposing

70:13 73:8

73:13

proposition

131:9

pros 22:5

prototypes

205:22

provide 83:16

85:14 88:18

89:1,4 99:4

132:3 168:20

179:10

187:22 191:8

203:13 204:3

215:21

227:17 229:3

231:6

provided 62:2

62:4 168:5

200:16 213:2

230:21 231:7

provides 89:1

providing

93:11 205:1

231:1 244:3

244:5

provisions

68:16 71:21

proxy 127:5

209:15

Ptacks 171:15

239:22

public 8:10

66:5,7 110:1

245:10

published

73:18

publishes

18:21

pull 78:1 89:20

107:10

173:16

pulled 29:18

pulling 107:5

107:21

pump 170:18

184:3

pumping

183:2

pumps 182:17

182:18

puncture

185:4

purchase

102:16

purchased

93:1

purely 144:14

222:1

purpose 64:17

65:3 77:14

77:16 79:1

purposes

68:17 229:8

push 59:5 60:7

193:8,10

196:9 239:6

242:11

put 19:18

20:14 21:4

27:16 33:15

38:22 52:19

53:22 60:18

62:16 64:18

87:12 91:11

94:13 106:11

109:22 123:7

124:18,21,22

125:8,21

132:4 137:13

147:2 150:17

154:1 158:7

159:13,18

162:20

163:10 165:7

168:8 171:1

185:2,14

193:8 204:13

208:2,8

212:22

213:10 218:3

232:17 233:9

puts 166:3

putting 27:11

28:1 84:14

86:2,4

116:18

128:21

134:18 135:3

136:11

217:10

226:10

Q

quality 194:15

quantify 142:3

142:9

quarter 45:20

46:5

question

23:14 26:4

29:16 31:7

32:4 37:15

42:19,20

43:18 44:2,5

52:21 55:19

56:3,12

58:13 64:9

67:3 70:21

76:3 77:4,5

85:5 87:9

100:8 116:22
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

37

117:10

122:12,13

131:7,20

133:1,15

143:2 147:14

166:15

167:14

170:12 181:2

209:9 211:7

214:3 230:11

230:12

236:14

243:18

questioning

200:5

questions

5:22 10:22

57:9 124:12

133:8 161:7

199:10

203:18 206:9

quick 85:9

100:8 170:12

210:13

quickly 227:14

quite 8:14 15:7

15:15 21:14

42:6,7 65:14

66:11 84:20

92:11 113:3

quoted 63:8

quotes 177:10

quoting

148:10,11

R

R 2:1 3:1 4:1

206:11

207:15

raining 215:2

raise 71:4

raising 44:6

190:2

Ramirez 4:14

4:14 67:14

68:21 69:4

70:19 71:6

71:10,13,15

72:6,8 79:5

80:2 124:2

176:5 178:15

224:4,11

244:15

245:11

range 122:17

128:6 153:10

200:20

211:14,16

224:2

ranges 190:13

rant 42:10

178:8

rate 12:17

103:18

104:18 127:5

146:3 169:20

170:15

171:14

222:22

rated 190:10

rates 39:5

95:20 104:19

170:1,13,21

171:5 229:17

rather 7:18

86:2 112:12

127:8 151:5

167:21 177:9

179:19

208:13

212:19

222:14

rating 11:5

42:16

ratio 45:9

103:18

146:12

202:17

ratios 93:17

RAV97:1

reach 203:19

read 12:2

136:22 232:3

ready 82:1

95:2

real 38:6,14,15

50:16 56:11

85:8 88:19

102:20 117:7

130:1 146:13

165:19

170:10

177:10 211:9

240:15

real-world

38:11

realistic 44:16

53:21 153:12

237:4

realistically

153:8

reality 37:18

37:21 45:12

108:19

114:14

realize 23:21

90:8 127:15

145:7

really 14:22

17:22 24:11

26:7 28:1

30:7 34:1,20

35:19 40:14

45:11 46:15

47:9 49:21

52:2 54:17

56:7 80:4

82:17 87:1,8

105:14

108:18 109:2

109:8 117:19

131:2 132:12

137:10

152:13 157:3

158:3,4

159:18

161:11 163:7

166:20 168:1

170:16

173:18

183:15 184:9

194:22 198:9

211:6 215:5

233:4,8

245:3,3

reason 6:11

22:14 23:6

34:14 53:8

65:12 174:5

201:5 205:17

207:12

reasonable

14:8 55:8

90:22 110:18

110:19 111:1

111:2 132:9

185:12

209:15

225:13

reasonably

78:1

reasons 13:8

28:11 35:2

175:7

rebates 41:20

42:1

rebel 232:19

recalibrate

226:11

recall 62:19

recap 13:5

14:13 102:22

receive 108:7

received 60:12

recent 152:1

168:6

recommend...

60:18 198:3

reconvene

178:14

record 80:18

80:22 159:19

162:14,19

199:13 224:7

247:6

records 95:9

rectangular

135:14

redistributing

54:9

redo 235:12

redoing 86:3

134:1

reduce 33:5

reduced 33:2

40:18 247:8

reduction

35:13 42:3

reef 166:16

reel 77:6

reference 63:4

64:16 65:3

68:2 76:8

referencing

79:13

referring 79:13

100:15

157:13

190:17

refinements

36:13

reflect 118:19

reflected

34:21 196:1

reflecting

154:7

refresh 10:2,7

refrigeration

39:22 40:10

50:1
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

38

refrigerator

193:20

regarding

179:17,20

208:20

regardless

60:8 79:16

182:1 222:17

regards 10:12

212:15

region 12:5

13:7,9 18:8

18:17 20:2

25:12 26:12

56:7 138:11

regional 13:3

regions 13:20

15:6 20:3

21:15 28:19

registering

153:1

regular 183:16

187:13

regulations

73:19 77:17

78:5,11

reject 22:5

relate 163:16

204:8

related 182:3,6

203:18 204:4

247:10

relating 156:7

156:8

relationship

28:17 147:14

166:10

relative 14:1

14:12 18:7

19:10 20:9

24:4 25:17

29:20 30:9

36:2 39:5

44:9 93:17

155:15 156:3

175:11 198:7

231:11

relatively

55:21 141:10

144:5 174:14

Relay 148:16

relays 145:3

release 160:10

released 160:9

relevant 12:1

68:16

reliability

151:13

185:18 186:9

reliable 166:12

relief 62:16

rely 168:11

remember

86:17 93:17

125:5 143:12

159:1 173:5

191:13,18

194:7 237:6

remind 10:14

remodels

133:21

removal 53:6

remove 53:3

54:15

repair 90:3,4,5

90:7,13,14

90:17,18

91:1 92:6,15

93:9,19

140:8 142:13

142:13 144:4

144:6,20

145:2 146:18

147:21

149:18,20,22

150:4 151:3

151:4 152:10

152:11

154:18

157:12,15

158:17 159:2

163:18

220:22 221:2

222:5 223:9

repaired

150:16

157:17

repairs 90:11

156:20

158:15 221:7

repeat 154:22

repeatedly

44:6

repeating

172:16

rephrase

179:11

234:14

replace 33:3

85:16,20

87:12 91:13

91:19,19

99:21 100:4

124:19 151:5

164:18 165:2

165:4,17

209:9 217:5

218:8,22

replaced 84:19

125:2 157:4

157:11 158:5

168:22

replacement

31:20 32:15

90:7 92:15

93:1,16

96:10 98:4

104:12

131:17

134:15

164:21

212:15

226:22

replacements

32:9 131:9

134:12 237:7

replacing

84:17 85:21

87:13,15

91:7 140:6

158:19

164:18

215:19

216:21

report 75:11

79:19 171:16

Reported 1:18

REPORTER

247:1

reporting

234:7

represent 12:8

14:4 24:21

97:18 115:13

200:20

representati...

14:8 55:8

representati...

233:22

representative

25:19 47:7

48:17,19

93:12 115:11

127:17 170:8

Representat...

95:13 97:19

representing

126:22

represents

12:13 209:22

reputable

164:15

request 62:1,4

199:12

requests

57:22

require 32:6,9

133:10

176:18

190:14

215:18

required 54:22

70:8 73:19

82:15 87:15

131:21 135:7

requirement

11:2 53:7

79:21

requirements

65:3 78:15

requires 85:11

requiring

213:15,18,19

215:20

RES 180:8

residential

55:20 148:10

163:16 171:6

180:12

Residentials

21:22

resolve 25:11

131:2 202:21

respect 58:1

respond 149:6

response

71:14

rest 71:16

109:7 149:12

196:2 223:18

restate 96:2

restates 96:2

result 91:8

142:17

150:10 174:4

176:3

resultant

175:9

resulted 35:12

resulting
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

39

102:6

results 56:6

83:14 96:6

173:2,3

205:14

225:22 231:8

243:20 244:2

244:5

retail 13:1

197:1

retailer 197:10

retailers

193:12

retain 90:19

retrofit 133:8

retrofits

132:22

retrofitting

136:11

return 41:6,6

returns 41:1

revamped

151:1,10

review 76:5

79:10

revise 180:1

revised 34:6

62:15 175:19

revising 74:8

revision 62:7

76:4

revisit 10:17

29:11

RFI 61:6,11

Rheem 4:20

103:1 114:10

140:1 147:4

220:21

Richard 2:14

Rife 228:15

riff 176:17

rigging 111:13

right 16:16

17:1,4 19:13

19:15 22:13

25:7 27:1,3

31:11 33:14

34:6 35:22

36:19 37:8

39:7,17 41:1

41:2 42:15

43:15 47:14

47:15,18,19

56:20 58:6

60:13 61:18

61:21 62:14

63:2 65:19

70:6,7,9,21

71:15 72:11

74:13 78:21

79:13,17

85:14 86:19

88:10 91:17

92:7,10,13

93:13 99:16

101:1,4,5

102:6 104:15

106:19

108:11

113:19,20

114:4,5

116:14 117:7

119:16

120:12

128:16 129:9

129:19

130:15

131:20,21,21

132:7,8,17

137:2,3,12

141:11,22

142:14 143:4

143:14,15

145:9,20

146:1,8

148:3,10

150:15 151:8

151:21 152:3

154:7 157:19

159:3 160:3

172:21

173:20

177:14,16

181:20 182:5

182:18 183:1

183:5,9,18

183:19 188:5

188:6 189:19

192:14,18

194:8,22

197:18

201:19,20,20

202:1 207:8

207:8 209:21

210:5 211:11

212:12 213:9

213:13

214:10,17,17

215:1,4

217:21

218:15,16

220:5,19

224:21 226:5

226:22 227:2

227:5,6

228:21

232:17

235:11

236:21 237:4

237:8 239:22

240:4 241:13

241:19

244:10

ripping 204:20

road 16:15

Robert 3:7

212:3

rock 177:18,19

role 215:17

roll 226:19

rollup 117:16

roof 106:20

134:1 182:13

182:21 183:3

184:21,22

185:3 193:7

201:10 203:9

204:21

roofing 204:6

roofs 185:1

room 4:6 8:15

22:14 64:8

110:4 179:21

214:18 216:7

238:5,7

ROSENQUIS...

115:3

Rosenquist

2:18 5:10,10

7:10,12 8:2,4

32:5 35:8,9

51:5,15,17

51:21 52:5

52:10 57:12

83:11 85:10

86:1,8,16

87:20 88:1,3

90:2 91:16

91:22 92:8

92:13,16,18

93:5,8,14

94:2 95:4

97:12 99:7

99:14 100:10

100:19,22

101:2,8,14

103:6,13

104:1,7,10

108:4,10,14

112:16 113:6

113:14,21

114:4,7,20

115:19 117:3

118:2,4,17

119:11 123:2

123:12,18

125:7 126:11

127:10 128:3

130:19

131:11,13,19

134:14 136:3

136:8,13,22

137:4,11

138:2,20

139:3,6

140:3,14,22

141:9,21

143:7,12

144:3,12,14

144:17,19

145:20 146:8

147:8 149:6

149:17

150:19 151:9

151:15 152:2

152:16

154:17,21

156:19

157:14 158:6

159:1,5,16

159:18 160:4

160:11 161:1

163:3 168:3

168:15

169:18

170:16,21

171:11

172:22

174:18

180:19 181:1

181:9,11,15

182:5 187:19

188:8,14,19

188:22

189:10,16

208:9 209:11

209:19 212:6

212:11 217:2

217:9 218:21

219:9,13,21
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

40

220:17,22

221:12 222:4

223:8 225:10

225:15 226:7

227:15

228:11

229:16 230:3

230:18,21

231:18,22

232:8 234:6

234:16 235:1

235:6,13,21

236:18,22

237:6 243:8

243:18

244:12,19

245:3

roughly 13:3

105:8 136:5

178:2

round 207:9

routine 140:4

215:15

routinely

218:1

row 114:8

rows 12:19

RS 93:9,11,15

135:1 138:16

138:17 139:2

139:3,17

144:6,16,17

146:5,6,7

148:5 149:4

149:8,14

150:6 210:2

210:4 221:12

221:14,18

222:10,14

223:13,17

224:4,8

RTU 241:4

RTU's 143:18

rule 24:16 43:8

61:12 63:18

63:20 68:8

68:22 71:1

81:15 168:3

188:11

192:20 208:3

212:1 230:5

rule-making

58:3 65:12

66:5 69:13

220:11,13

229:19

rule-makings

231:1

rulemaking

180:14

rules 43:7

62:18 182:9

run 12:12

23:11 53:6

56:22 106:19

199:22 203:6

222:3 224:16

224:20

234:11

running 56:3

56:17,21,22

87:21 95:10

168:22 194:2

runs 199:14

rusting 163:12

165:16

rusty 3:4 4:22

35:10 63:8

65:15 66:11

74:4,13

228:9

S

S 2:1 3:1 4:1

210:9

SAC 218:8

Sachs 2:19 5:5

5:5 15:18,22

17:12 32:19

42:9 49:15

50:7,14

55:18 56:12

57:5,10

92:19 93:6

93:22 111:9

112:5,14

125:20

126:17 127:3

132:18

133:16,18

134:10

142:18

143:17 146:6

146:9 152:19

159:20

160:20 161:5

162:4,17

177:6,13

178:4,9

185:5 189:4

189:12,17,21

190:2,19

191:4,18

192:4 194:2

194:4 195:2

195:15,19

202:16,22

204:5,17

215:10 216:1

219:8,10,14

220:21 221:8

233:2,14

234:1,14,17

238:14,21

241:3 242:3

242:9,20

243:3

safe 187:20

safety 110:12

161:14

sake 29:6

sale 140:7

197:22

sales 129:16

163:19

166:22

196:22 198:7

202:2,8

same 7:17

16:20 19:20

21:22 29:22

31:10 33:4

37:8 41:8

44:16 50:11

50:20 51:1

51:22 52:2,6

52:8 56:13

56:18 70:15

75:5 80:5

97:4,7 99:17

102:4 107:20

107:21 108:5

108:11

110:20,21

112:22 117:1

117:4,12,22

119:4 127:19

127:19

130:10

132:12,14,22

133:2 143:19

151:6 156:18

165:8 171:22

175:6 177:2

200:2 205:4

206:20

208:13 213:6

217:4 218:10

223:6 239:17

239:18

Sami 3:11 4:18

sample 10:8

11:2,13 12:3

12:10,18

14:3 24:8,15

25:16 26:5,7

26:22 27:15

29:12 32:13

95:7,12,18

96:4,5 97:14

97:15

samples 12:12

sampling

62:16 75:9

168:12

San 134:22

sanction 85:18

sand 129:13

sanity 112:6

sat 8:9

saturation

168:11

SAV113:17,22

114:1 115:16

117:1 120:5

120:8 122:2

122:14,22

125:5

save 38:7,10

38:16 46:19

125:16

saves 100:2

savings 29:15

36:3 47:11

169:21 170:9

173:11 174:9

174:10

175:13

231:12

saw 21:4 25:2

25:2 35:10

115:20

119:14

134:16

138:13 139:8

171:4 174:10

229:18

230:16

say 17:2 19:22

25:14 30:2
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

41

31:5 37:2

38:19,19

40:12 43:21

52:18 53:22

66:6 67:15

69:6,15

72:10 75:7

88:16 89:19

92:14 93:1

103:20 110:1

110:6 113:6

124:10,13

137:5 138:12

143:4 147:11

148:4 154:14

156:1 157:8

158:3 161:21

162:20

163:20

166:11

169:14

171:11 178:4

184:4 185:10

186:2 188:13

194:19

195:11 196:6

201:1 210:4

216:4 218:6

218:16 220:8

221:13 222:7

224:10,19

232:5 233:7

242:10

244:12

saying 17:7

25:6 26:6,9

31:2 32:8

38:8 44:18

48:18 72:7

82:10 83:1

86:14 99:7

103:3 114:11

117:5 121:3

121:19

125:20 139:1

148:20 162:9

163:19 164:7

184:8 187:5

202:3,4

212:16,17

217:13,14,17

217:21 218:6

223:14,19

225:21 226:5

242:9 244:16

says 59:14

60:4 61:4

64:10 68:8

68:13 81:4

104:2 164:5

168:20

223:22

232:21

scale 18:4,7

108:6 141:22

scaled 14:12

25:18 147:16

scaling 139:4

144:6 150:8

scenarios

211:15

schedules

11:16

schools 32:22

science 46:17

screen 132:5

169:13

screws 185:3

185:3

sealed 193:17

seals 222:9

second 14:10

26:2 44:5

75:7 165:11

204:9 208:8

225:6

second-order

54:18

section 72:8,9

210:14

secure 169:12

169:14

see 9:15 17:7

17:20 21:6,7

31:2 32:22

33:17 34:7

34:16 36:1,2

36:7,10 37:5

41:9 44:16

45:9 47:3

48:10,11,15

49:10,14,15

52:5 56:2,13

65:18,19

70:19 71:2

77:10,12

79:4 80:14

84:19 85:11

86:22 87:6,7

90:20,21

91:5 94:10

94:17 96:15

97:21 99:14

100:10 102:6

103:15

104:11

108:18 109:6

109:9,11

112:4 116:15

128:14,21

132:8 135:17

138:6,11

145:9 150:19

150:21

153:18 155:8

162:1,2,3

171:13

173:14 174:6

174:11

177:15

178:13

189:10

190:13

199:13

200:18 202:8

205:1,14,21

206:11

207:12

208:16,19

209:1 210:19

211:7,10,15

211:17

212:20

215:11

218:18

222:12

223:11,19

224:9,17

225:18 226:2

226:11

229:20

230:14,15

234:14 236:4

236:5 242:10

243:3,20

245:12 246:2

seeing 39:19

44:17 48:9

51:2 92:2

101:14 109:8

112:21

118:18 129:6

141:9 153:2

172:13

seek 60:11

seen 42:2 95:5

173:20

175:22

195:15 229:5

238:9

segregated

51:13,13

segue 201:14

203:2

seismic 204:8

select 47:5

48:7

selected 43:15

selecting

118:12

selection 44:7

48:11

self 219:1

242:10

self-powered

135:2

sell 164:9

165:1 182:7

selling 119:5

121:12

129:16,20,21

164:3,4

197:19

send 77:1

180:3,4

sends 108:20

sense 28:3

30:1 44:19

55:20 89:19

92:20 93:4

114:17 118:1

146:19

161:12,16

194:17 195:2

204:19

238:21 242:4

242:15,16,20

sensitive

164:17

195:16

sensitivity

10:11 52:15

54:20 208:11

225:19

sensor 135:20

sensors 100:5

135:6,8

sent 206:6

245:17

separate 69:10
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

42

69:12,13

75:1 101:4

142:14 186:5

237:20

239:13 241:9

separated

75:2 203:21

223:7 242:2

separately

187:1

September

58:4,6

Septemberx...

67:21

series 18:6

serve 174:4

208:12

serves 95:9

96:5

service 157:10

161:12,18

services

109:19

171:16

sessions

224:12

set 10:2 27:8

41:10 97:13

97:15,17

98:17 204:3

220:14,17

sets 24:17

setting 59:20

66:18 116:7

settle 134:3

seven 27:14

27:16 28:2

29:1 34:8

35:6,14

43:20 96:14

98:5 102:7

102:12

104:21

105:12 106:5

113:7 114:8

114:12 120:4

130:3 145:16

145:16,21

149:3 158:1

175:7 199:22

221:3 224:20

244:5

seven-year

146:18

sevenxxx

207:4

several 11:19

141:14

201:10

Sewn 130:7

shake 166:4

shakes 166:8

shaking

155:10

shall 137:16

shape 159:12

195:3 204:20

shaping 47:12

share 88:11,12

94:19 155:16

155:18,18

156:1,3

172:11

205:18 230:6

sheet 69:21

80:21 81:7

82:6,19

88:20 154:3

193:3

shell 19:4,6,17

20:17 33:1

shift 167:6

shifting

118:20

ship 158:10

shipment

129:18

158:21 160:8

162:2 166:11

176:15

197:22

226:10

244:16

shipments

31:15,16

32:11 33:8,9

33:13,15,20

88:8 90:6

92:2,11 94:7

94:19 117:15

118:13,15

150:21

151:16,22

152:1 153:17

153:19 155:7

156:2,9

157:10 160:2

166:8,9

167:20 168:1

168:18,19

226:11 227:6

244:9,20,21

shipped

159:20

shipping

155:5

short 55:21

shorter 153:21

154:13

shorthand

204:7 247:1

should 16:10

19:22 21:19

22:16,19

50:5 51:10

69:1 88:3

93:21 95:1,2

99:10,12

106:16

113:20,22

114:1,1

119:2,10

123:7 128:3

132:4 142:16

146:17

157:12

158:11

159:21 161:3

166:7,10

196:1 210:10

218:19 219:2

224:1,2

229:20

231:14,22

235:15 236:1

243:13

shouldn't

50:15 99:12

183:4

show 9:15

34:19 48:8

71:2 101:16

121:9 225:2

226:1 228:16

229:8 230:13

244:21

showed 6:5

121:10 191:1

232:18

showing 6:18

6:19 48:7

116:16 120:4

132:1 172:20

244:2

shown 69:19

shows 2:20

5:19 98:7

135:10 152:9

173:10,17

SHR 55:21

56:14

side 74:2

101:22 103:7

140:19

163:15

180:20 190:7

197:22

199:18 208:2

209:6 222:20

244:4

sideways

235:20

sign 70:2

signal 146:12

significant

174:14

175:18

significantly

28:10 129:7

175:5,6,15

similar 11:21

122:5

simple 52:16

173:5 174:7

175:2,9

230:15,18,19

230:20 231:1

231:3,9

232:14 233:4

233:6 234:20

simplicity

52:20

simply 101:9

104:14 231:9

simulated

24:16

simulation

29:2,19

95:10,11

234:9

since 4:4 7:4

9:2 16:1 53:3

59:15 68:6

83:20 123:5

137:19

138:10 161:8

166:15 174:6

209:11 236:8

sincerely

173:7
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

43

singe 113:22

single 11:9

12:12 31:20

147:6,6

151:4 184:15

208:13

singles 213:11

sit 116:3

176:20

212:18

site 128:15

141:13

143:19

232:17

sitting 67:6

178:2 214:17

situation 39:1

45:7 90:10

situations

224:22

six 23:22

196:9,9

sizable 171:4

size 13:7,12

15:1 27:6

36:2 48:6

100:21 105:5

132:2,2,8

134:2 135:13

138:18 141:1

141:22 160:8

179:18,20

190:11,14,17

195:3 198:10

198:19,22

199:6 200:4

201:18,21

202:5 205:4

211:5 219:7

219:22

sizes 51:16

108:21 120:1

191:3 199:21

200:9 201:17

skewing 159:3

skill 106:10

107:10 144:1

skimming

209:13

sleep 193:22

sleeve 239:22

240:1

slender 238:20

slide 6:14 9:5

10:18 50:5

52:12 95:5

96:7 99:15

99:16 100:19

103:1,9,14

104:3 126:14

132:1 134:16

138:20 139:5

150:20

169:19

172:14

173:16

slides 103:21

104:6,11

188:20

slightly 6:10

223:16

slow 80:2

smack 203:13

SMACNA

203:16

210:12

SMACNAxxx

224:15

small 30:3

55:16 105:16

130:4 143:8

143:18

161:22

191:21

192:10

219:14

238:14,22

239:1,1

smaller 33:3

198:1 199:14

202:14 211:5

Smart 164:11

SNOPR 63:3

society 206:3

sod 236:9

software 48:4

206:14,18

sold 48:14

120:21

134:13 167:2

197:17

solely 139:17

solution 49:4

50:16,18

86:12 87:1

95:16 136:8

136:10,11

137:10 214:5

215:9,20

217:20

some 4:8 10:4

10:9 12:15

21:4,14 26:8

29:6 35:7

40:9,10 43:9

43:11,14

47:7 49:9

55:7 65:12

72:16,17

81:2,8 82:7,8

87:17,18

88:18 89:20

90:11 91:6,6

92:3 97:10

97:11 101:2

101:19

102:15

111:11 113:5

119:8 120:1

120:14 121:2

124:7 126:15

132:8,9,20

132:20 133:8

147:2 148:13

149:13

157:20

163:17 171:3

176:17,18

177:22

179:17 181:5

181:14,17

190:7 192:6

193:7,11

195:15 197:7

200:21 203:3

203:7,8,10

203:14

205:13 206:1

206:17

210:16 211:4

211:7,21

212:8 216:21

218:17

219:19

221:14

228:20

232:10,22

236:2 237:17

240:13

241:12,12,14

244:9 245:17

somebody

77:6,21

193:22

somehow

43:16

someone

86:14,22

157:11 166:9

200:16,17

209:6

something

8:18 26:15

29:10 49:16

49:17 55:9

55:12 60:3

61:6,8 66:10

75:10 76:10

81:7 83:12

87:18 89:22

95:1 99:12

109:9,11

111:5 119:1

120:9 127:22

128:2 130:17

133:21 134:4

138:14 144:5

149:14

152:10 162:8

165:5 170:8

176:8 181:22

181:22

185:15 189:6

194:13

195:11 202:2

202:5 204:4

209:4,7,16

211:1 213:3

213:12

217:15

218:14,18

219:11

221:16

223:22

224:10,11,13

226:3 228:15

something's

221:10

sometimes

164:20

somewhat

36:6

somewhere

153:11 183:2

185:11

240:12,12

sons 53:4

soon 205:18

244:8

sooner 70:18
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

44

165:14

205:11 222:2

sophisticated

106:3,4

135:21 142:7

142:8,19

146:13

sophistication

135:7

sorry 18:19

23:20 31:4

48:3 78:17

108:4 112:10

112:18 131:8

144:19 180:9

219:18

228:10 243:8

sort 11:3 12:21

13:11 14:2,5

24:17 25:10

36:15 45:11

54:6,11 56:9

66:13 68:19

90:9 92:20

98:8 99:17

134:6 200:6

203:14 209:6

216:2 231:2

231:3 233:3

243:22

sound 177:4

225:12

sounds 47:12

57:5 86:11

110:14

113:19 130:2

136:9 146:12

176:12 177:5

source 206:2

210:5

south 182:14

southeast

57:1 196:11

196:14

sowing 202:11

space 11:15

12:7 13:1

14:3,17,18

15:6,13

16:19,22

45:12 85:15

140:18

142:10

214:22

spaces 49:18

57:3

spark 221:8

spate 18:9

speak 68:3

speaking

167:10

173:15

179:16

speaks 104:2

104:4

special 213:4

specials

192:22

specialty

238:14

specific

115:10

119:19 122:1

specifically

78:21 190:12

217:3

specifications

204:11

speeds 113:12

spend 125:19

spent 22:15

split 13:22

spoke 245:16

spots 183:10

183:11

spreadsheet

12:11 130:21

SQ 135:17

square 15:21

30:4 112:8

122:2 133:22

140:11 220:8

stack 6:12

staff 107:16

stage 8:10

21:9 22:9

28:12,14,17

28:20 45:20

46:14 54:21

56:22 58:9

213:19 214:5

215:2,20

216:22

staged 20:20

34:1,2 36:7

84:4,14 88:9

96:14 97:2

98:6 102:9

112:22 113:5

113:6 114:8

114:13,15

115:22 121:6

123:4,8,10

125:8 128:17

147:5,12

217:11

stages 35:16

54:11 85:12

113:8,9

120:9 217:8

staging 35:18

53:8 147:18

190:9,10

stakeholders

77:2

stand 112:14

232:6

standard 4:6

63:4 64:14

65:6 68:17

69:12 70:6,7

70:15,18

76:4,9 77:14

81:12 116:7

157:21

174:15

210:19

215:15

223:20,20

238:18

239:16

standards 5:4

22:6 59:21

70:4 72:21

77:15,22

79:11,14

82:16 90:10

92:4,5 94:5

171:21

standpoint

64:1,3

stands 137:12

star 23:22

Starr 2:21 5:6

5:6 16:1,9,10

16:13,15,21

17:7,9,15,20

18:18,19

19:1,7,14

22:20 23:3

23:20 24:5

25:1,1,8 26:4

26:13,17,20

27:2,4,19

29:16 31:4

31:19 32:10

33:7,14,17

34:13 36:17

36:22 37:9

37:14 38:2,6

38:13 39:4

39:10,13

40:11 41:19

42:1 44:10

44:13 45:14

46:2,8,15

47:21 48:4

48:15,17

49:14 50:5

50:12,16

51:18 52:2

56:16 57:14

80:10 85:4,4

85:21 86:7

86:10,20

87:22 88:2

88:16 89:5,8

91:9,21 92:7

97:8 98:12

99:9 104:20

105:7,14,18

106:5,11,18

107:4,12,19

108:2,9,13

108:17 110:6

111:3,10,18

111:21

112:11

124:15

125:15,22

126:4,9

129:15 130:7

130:10,14,17

131:14

132:11

133:20 134:8

134:13 136:1

136:4,18

137:5 138:12

138:22 139:5

147:20

148:13,20

149:2,13

152:5,21

153:6,17

154:6,12,16

156:15 157:3

158:3,18

159:3,6,11

160:15,18
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

45

162:11 164:2

164:9,12

166:14

168:17 169:6

169:9,17

176:12,16

182:6,16

183:4,13,19

184:5,10,16

185:10

186:11,18,22

187:3,8,12

190:16 191:7

191:11

195:20

196:15,21

197:6,12

198:7 199:20

201:3,21

202:6,19

203:12

204:22

205:20 209:8

209:17 210:2

211:22

212:10 213:8

213:12,15

214:3,10,16

215:1,18

216:4 217:7

217:21

218:10,16

221:11,13

222:7,14

223:12 227:9

236:14,21

237:2,8,10

239:3 240:11

240:20

STARR:xxx

168:8

start 4:9,10

47:15 76:7

79:11 94:14

96:3 145:14

165:18 167:3

173:13

179:15 201:7

208:9 212:4

started 4:7 9:2

35:15 47:16

212:16 213:7

starting 4:7

47:3 48:9

83:13,19

85:2 128:10

141:10

starts 172:8

202:11

Stas 3:2

stat 128:5

state 59:2

98:10

stated 37:19

61:3 68:15

82:19

states 21:11

184:9

static 30:5,10

30:15,16

37:10 38:15

44:8,15,16

174:2 193:4

193:5,14

205:3,22

208:17 239:5

239:8

statics 174:5

stating 83:4,4

statistical 26:7

160:9

stay 30:19

staying 52:2

stays 22:21,22

117:12

steep 167:9

stenographi...

247:7

step 177:21

210:13

stepped 9:5

steps 82:5

177:20

Steve 213:2

215:7

stick 98:14

123:14

125:12

still 33:4 42:13

42:22 44:14

44:16 51:22

56:22 57:2

58:9 64:21

65:9,16,18

72:17 90:10

90:17 91:12

106:19 121:1

126:14

142:15,16

147:14

168:22 175:4

179:8 183:1

183:10

184:22

190:19

194:15 200:2

202:15

208:21

211:15

stock 14:4

17:4 155:17

156:4 195:21

stop 66:8

124:1

stores 111:22

stories 196:9

196:10

story 175:4

238:6

straight

171:21 209:7

straightforw...

32:18 144:5

strategic

42:12 50:4

stretch 159:6

201:1

strict 166:4

strike 114:6,7

strokes 178:7

strongly 194:5

struck 66:15

structural 50:2

structure

201:11

203:10 204:7

stuff 22:21

23:9 26:21

75:9 106:16

107:10

132:12,14,22

141:20 145:7

167:1 169:10

180:2 199:14

222:2 223:18

223:20

236:12 238:9

242:21

243:10,11

subdividing

197:15

submitted

241:18

subspecies

238:22

substance

66:13

substantial

121:2 201:12

substantially

129:11

145:17

suburbs

111:22

such 11:10,18

48:11 142:9

178:13

sudden 216:9

216:17

suddenly 67:9

sufficient

119:21,22

suggest 38:16

62:5 176:19

suggesting

43:9

suitable

100:13

sum 16:2

summarized

13:9

summarizing

83:19

summed 16:20

Sunday's

171:5

super 87:3

182:19

supervision

247:9

supplemental

63:3

supplier 129:4

suppliers

119:5

supplies 89:2

supply 238:2

support 71:6

Suppose

52:16

supposed

83:1 135:2

sure 10:17

44:19 49:7

55:15,22

59:10,12,13

60:2 62:13

66:11 67:12

68:19 72:15

73:2 77:1
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

46

87:11,12

113:3 121:14

121:14 122:3

143:20

147:19

151:20

169:20

182:10 189:1

189:12 192:9

207:10,11

212:3 219:3

234:22 243:5

surged 216:14

surprised

207:16

surprising

206:10

Surveys 11:8

suspect

143:17

211:22 212:5

swapping

217:18

switch 58:8,11

137:7 212:21

213:16,16,18

214:7 215:21

switched

164:7

switching

60:12 218:4

218:11

symbolic

133:16

system 11:17

12:9 13:16

13:17 27:6

28:12,20

39:22 55:3

55:13 85:7

85:18,20

98:15 100:13

122:14

124:19 125:2

126:10

135:21

136:19

156:18 163:1

165:6,9,13

210:15

212:22 214:1

214:2,12

215:13 216:5

216:10,11,15

218:4,4,7,8

systems 11:19

214:21

T

T-T 160:11

tab 211:2,5,22

212:3

table 4:10 8:9

10:1 19:20

51:1 62:19

103:12

162:18

171:22

173:10 208:2

208:8 232:3

232:9,12

235:9,11

236:15

tables 9:15,16

210:17 232:6

tabular 189:5

189:11

tackle 21:17

take 4:6 19:8

24:2,17,19

25:13,14,17

50:5 53:22

54:6 57:16

68:18 76:14

85:19 95:7

99:9,9

122:20

124:17 139:9

149:3 164:13

176:20

177:20,21

178:14

193:15

198:13

209:17

212:20 224:2

227:20 228:3

234:12

238:18

taken 13:21

24:14 57:18

178:22 198:9

210:19 247:4

247:7

takes 198:21

taking 11:22

46:7 83:14

84:1,4,16

85:7 102:1

108:15 144:5

149:12

talk 7:20 29:11

56:1 83:11

124:17 129:5

131:1 139:7

169:2 226:18

233:3

talked 8:15

128:5 129:3

131:14 132:7

213:21,22

237:15

239:12

talking 17:15

27:20 31:6

34:15 60:14

62:9 67:7

72:5,21

74:22 101:3

105:1,13,22

106:18 107:3

107:8 110:10

113:10

117:15

123:21

135:12

137:17

145:22

154:17

160:12

170:22

180:16

182:16

184:11

186:12

190:16 196:3

197:9 200:8

201:3,6,17

212:2,3

214:8 218:4

226:2 228:11

237:17

240:18

241:17 242:5

talks 169:19

208:4 210:14

tall 27:17 28:1

tape 171:6

181:22

182:13

185:15

target 229:4

tariff 137:22

138:2

tariffs 138:1,3

138:3,4

task 241:21

tax 35:17

103:17

Taylor 134:21

136:9 213:2

TDS 105:15

team 176:21

178:7

tear 159:12

technically

76:12 79:15

technician

106:10

technique

170:4

technology

45:15,16

Ted 4:3,12

teens 184:15

telecom 133:6

telepack

196:15,16

telePACS

197:5

telephone

2:20 3:5

tell 22:17

37:10 75:20

90:21 93:20

105:4 108:3

111:12

127:14 137:5

165:12 166:6

166:21 174:7

228:7

telling 59:8

107:19

206:21

tells 82:4

temp 182:12

245:16

temperature

28:17 62:15

135:6,20

181:9 183:11

208:22

temperatures

54:16 183:9

184:17

ten 16:7,22

27:12 42:4

61:9 95:11

99:10 126:17

133:9 141:15
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

47

145:3,21

146:5 148:4

148:6,21

150:17

162:21 164:8

165:10

178:17

188:20

199:22 202:1

216:8 220:9

221:2,11,20

222:6,11,20

223:10

224:21

235:16

242:21

ten-year

146:17

ten,000 234:9

tend 13:13

tends 17:9

241:7

Tens 201:12

tenth 144:8,12

150:4

tenths 230:1,2

term 69:20

80:20 81:7

82:6,19

152:8 204:6

terms 62:9

80:9 133:21

135:12 148:1

156:22

172:14

223:18

234:18

243:19

Terps 89:9

Terzigni 3:3

89:14 203:16

203:16 205:6

205:13,17

210:12 224:7

test 28:22 29:1

34:9,21 37:7

37:19 38:4

38:18 39:2

44:20 45:8

48:13,14,22

49:2,12

50:17 59:21

61:1,12,13

62:7,19 63:1

63:4,10,11

63:22 64:2

64:15,16,17

64:19,20,22

65:1,2,4

67:17 68:17

69:12 70:2,6

70:8,10,14

73:5,9,17

74:14,16,16

74:18 75:11

75:11,19

77:7,9,11

78:2,13,14

78:21 79:2

79:22 80:19

81:3,18,21

82:15 83:3

180:11,14

239:19

tested 37:22

testing 180:8

239:20

than 7:18

15:16 18:2

21:18 28:22

30:6 37:5,11

37:16 39:2

45:22 50:10

52:20 53:11

56:1 58:22

77:6 86:2

107:9 109:9

109:10

112:12 116:1

121:1,4

127:8,20

135:5 142:2

147:13

149:14 151:5

153:9 155:2

161:3 162:5

174:10

178:19

179:19

183:21 186:5

186:7 193:15

202:3 205:11

208:13

211:18

214:16 216:9

221:9 222:2

229:4,12

233:13,14,20

234:21 240:7

242:21,22

thank 5:21

15:22 20:12

65:8 79:3

93:22 127:11

151:12 152:2

178:10 179:1

180:18 188:2

195:4,19

205:19

220:21 243:1

246:1

thanks 88:4

147:1 161:5

204:11

Tharp 3:4 4:22

4:22 20:6,12

35:3 37:18

38:10 51:16

61:2,5,10,15

61:19,22

62:11 63:14

63:16,22

64:7 74:10

74:15 75:15

75:21 76:12

76:17 77:1

78:16,18

103:12 104:8

105:15

114:17 115:5

117:10,19

119:1 140:12

140:18 141:3

141:8 142:13

142:16 145:8

145:11 148:7

162:7 170:12

170:17 171:1

178:18

224:15

228:10,17,21

229:3,10

230:1

that'll 126:6

theirs 229:12

themselves

80:13 165:16

theory 87:1

there'll 74:9

therefore

47:13 64:20

247:8

Thereupon

246:3

thermal

180:16

thermostat

84:17 98:7,8

99:22 101:9

104:13

106:12,14,20

107:21

128:14,19,20

thermostats

126:12

128:16

thick 154:12

thicker 154:3

thighs 14:11

thing 4:5 13:12

16:20 20:16

24:11 27:2

30:1 31:5,10

32:3,13 33:7

35:10 41:1

52:3,6,8

60:13 69:16

75:5 77:8

80:7 82:16

84:8,21,22

85:18 87:4

87:11 90:3,8

94:2,7 97:4

98:13 99:17

102:14 108:5

108:16 109:5

113:16 123:2

123:12

125:17 127:1

130:20 137:2

142:20

149:19

150:13 152:7

155:16

163:21

164:10

175:15 179:3

196:21

197:12

200:11

204:15,19

205:2,3

209:8 215:3

215:7 218:22

219:5,15

221:13 226:7

229:16 230:4

239:22 240:2

241:3 244:16

245:15
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

48

things 9:4,6,11

9:12 10:19

23:4 36:1

43:12 46:18

49:21 59:12

66:13 67:21

94:10 95:19

101:19

102:21 109:1

110:12,17

123:20 127:6

133:7 139:12

140:4 143:1

143:20

147:21 149:9

151:2 153:3

165:16,18

167:2 171:3

175:12

176:13

177:22

193:17 204:2

204:9,22

220:7 221:14

221:15 235:3

237:18

think 6:4,5 7:7

7:13,21 9:8

9:14 15:20

16:22 18:12

19:1 20:5,16

20:22 22:9

22:12 23:8

29:17 30:2

32:8,20 33:8

34:14,17,19

35:12 40:22

41:17 42:2

44:15 46:19

49:8 50:16

50:18 51:12

51:13 54:12

55:12 56:16

57:14 59:9

60:2,8 62:22

69:14,22

73:16 76:2,3

78:20 79:12

79:15,20

80:4,16 83:2

87:8 89:3

95:4,22

98:18,19

99:11 100:16

101:2 105:21

113:17

114:14 117:5

119:2,9,9

122:19

123:17,19

124:8,9,15

125:4 128:2

129:5 130:18

132:19 133:4

133:11 134:6

142:2,18

145:4 146:2

146:21

147:17 150:5

150:20

152:15

153:10 156:4

156:7 159:6

159:21

160:11

163:11,17

166:7,16

167:19 168:4

169:3 170:2

171:21

176:21 177:1

177:9,12,17

178:4 179:7

179:9 182:19

182:20

184:14

187:16

188:21

189:17

191:16,20

192:6 194:7

196:18,22

198:10

199:20

200:12,22

202:11 204:9

206:6,13

207:1 208:7

210:10

211:16 212:4

215:2,8

218:13

219:16 220:7

221:6 222:16

222:19

223:21

224:21 226:9

226:13,19

227:4,7,9,10

228:4 229:13

230:8 237:17

240:8,15

241:19

242:19 244:1

244:10 246:1

thinking 33:22

44:14 80:8,8

134:17 157:7

157:7,14

172:19

176:18

181:15

183:14

191:14

200:10 205:5

220:3 234:17

235:16

thinks 176:22

thirty-three

26:5

thorough

219:3

thought 7:16

10:1 29:19

39:12 55:19

58:17 64:3

65:13 69:11

69:11,17

79:21 88:22

93:12 111:1

122:8 131:14

152:5 164:16

191:5 198:12

203:13

219:10

thoughts

80:14 243:7

thousand 26:5

95:11 102:13

105:12 128:6

128:7,12

129:9,10

135:19 201:9

201:10

212:12

237:11

thousands

143:13

201:12

threads 43:12

three 10:7

24:19 26:1

36:20 45:22

52:9 53:16

74:9 76:11

80:6 83:5

85:12 88:1

96:19 100:17

110:12

128:11,11

131:22

139:11,13

145:22 155:9

160:13

164:19

174:12

184:19

185:16 195:8

197:18 202:6

215:20 217:8

225:1,1

228:7,8

229:1 232:20

three-stage

214:4 215:21

throw 85:14

87:4 159:13

throws 87:7

thumbs 71:13

tie 53:17

tie-downs

110:12

tied 22:10

tight 11:12

193:18

till 165:21

tim 112:7

time 15:10

18:6 22:15

27:22 35:13

50:3,11

56:17,21

65:14 73:6

80:20 81:10

90:8 93:6

106:8,9

118:9,10

119:8 124:3

125:17

132:22 134:5

143:19

152:20 155:3

156:1 166:22

167:1,21

176:4 177:15

177:19

178:15

182:11 183:5

184:7 193:8

193:9,21
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

49

204:10

205:13

206:18,21

207:2 211:8

211:21

216:14,16

219:15 222:3

235:11 236:2

237:9 244:17

times 53:13

59:22 95:11

95:17 105:3

105:9 108:21

111:3,7

126:17

142:21 165:1

196:4 215:3

223:15

tiny 238:8

today 8:19

29:12 57:7

60:9,14

72:18,18

73:1,20

74:19 75:10

76:1 77:6

79:18,18

123:20,22

132:14 154:7

172:13 176:6

176:11

239:16

today's 72:21

toed 210:13

together

103:10 147:2

181:14 187:4

told 77:7 96:3

111:4,6

175:7

tomorrow

245:2,5

ton 6:13,16,17

7:10,11

24:20 27:14

27:17 29:1,2

35:6 43:20

51:1 96:15

102:13 103:2

104:21 105:3

105:17

114:13 120:4

129:7,12

135:15,19,19

135:22 149:3

149:17 157:8

172:16

190:19

199:15 200:1

200:14,19

202:9 244:6

244:6

tonnage 212:8

tons 7:2 27:12

28:2 34:9

35:14,18

52:19,20

53:3,22 54:1

54:1 85:11

98:5 99:16

100:1 102:7

102:8,12

113:8 114:9

129:17,22,22

130:11,12,15

157:17,19

158:2 167:5

175:7 192:14

194:9,10,13

195:5 197:6

197:7,8,11

197:14,18

198:5 200:7

200:14,15

202:8 217:16

242:22,22

244:7

took 16:18

18:9 150:14

150:15 213:9

tools 194:1

tooth 154:16

top 13:9 16:6

116:18

192:22

226:13 232:9

232:11 233:9

total 17:15

30:5 34:5

36:18 37:22

40:13 44:22

103:11 104:2

104:3,5

114:11 173:8

173:13 175:8

193:5,14

231:12,13,19

tough 58:13

towards 51:19

62:11 67:21

track 174:19

tradeoffs

39:21

traditional

241:1

train 80:3

105:20,22

191:5

Trane 5:2,14

22:4 105:11

107:6,8

109:19,19

127:14 141:5

150:12 162:8

238:5,7

transcript

247:5

transferred

153:22

transferring

206:7,19

translate

215:11

trap 185:14

trend 51:19

102:18

trends 19:18

190:11

tries 164:2,9

trillion 192:21

trouble 155:20

true 31:22

153:6 247:6

try 14:3 22:13

75:1 102:15

124:7 156:4

165:1,6

176:10

191:16

200:12

203:10,20

204:2 211:20

212:7 235:17

trying12:2

23:11 41:12

42:14,16

43:12 46:16

49:20,22

50:17 66:13

93:4 98:18

124:12 127:4

132:19

151:17

153:14 155:1

158:20

168:13

177:20 189:6

194:16 195:2

199:20 200:2

200:5 209:3

216:2,19

TSD 231:6

tube 179:19

186:14 207:9

207:14

tubes 179:19

186:5,6

tuning 56:3

turn 6:1 57:13

98:17 99:2

179:6 214:13

216:8,11

217:22

turndown

98:15

turned 55:4,14

214:18

turning 54:22

216:16

turnover 33:19

155:17 156:4

156:9

turns 162:2

170:10 216:5

216:15

turnsxxx 89:5

tweaked 65:16

65:19

twice 45:7

71:10 105:4

105:15 145:3

158:19

twist 172:2

two 13:1 14:8

14:10,20

20:10 24:8

24:17 25:21

30:15,17

43:11 45:10

45:19,21

49:18,20

52:17 54:7

61:20 64:11

64:12 70:5

84:1,3,5 97:4

102:8,8

103:10,21

104:4,6

105:2,8

109:1 110:11
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

50

111:14 113:8

113:9,12

114:8 120:9

128:4 129:10

131:10

147:12,13

157:20

177:20 192:8

192:13,14,21

195:8 197:8

197:8 198:5

198:14 204:1

204:22 205:6

213:19 224:1

224:20

228:13

232:20

237:17

two-dimensi...

45:12

two-part 56:4

two-piece

207:11

two-step

120:20

two-thirds

53:5

type 18:8,17

19:17 25:12

26:12 27:6

56:8 88:12

96:12,17

98:8,10

99:22 117:16

128:20

135:11

142:19 171:7

194:21 237:4

types 11:4

13:2 25:3

102:8 128:17

211:5

typewriting

247:8

typical 97:9

98:15 145:9

205:3 212:21

214:12

216:15

217:18

typically38:14

47:5 56:21

78:9 89:15

89:15 98:17

99:2 112:1

142:4 148:7

165:3 186:19

187:12

194:14 196:7

202:18

typo6:10

135:17

U

U.S 183:18

Uh-huh 28:5

181:10,13

ultimately

65:10

uncertain

168:8

uncertainty

161:17 177:8

uncomforta...

225:5,6

understand

9:11,12

22:15 29:17

31:3 42:22

43:1,1,6

45:11 69:11

79:7 83:5

107:7,8

117:8 124:12

137:9 163:8

166:20 171:5

191:20 216:1

216:20 222:1

230:2 236:17

243:4

understandi...

39:15 57:20

57:21 67:17

67:20 68:19

69:3 70:22

71:7 79:17

132:14 190:8

192:7 196:22

197:13

216:14

understood

69:17 127:4

235:8

unequivocally

110:1

unfairly 30:17

unfortunately

204:3

unibody

195:10

unintuitive

40:11

unit 25:19

27:12 31:21

33:3,4 34:4

37:2,11,12

37:16,17

43:13,14,16

43:20 46:8

52:21 53:6

54:1,1,2,3

55:2 91:19

98:11,21

100:7 101:4

104:15

115:22 119:3

122:16

123:15

124:18,20

128:12 134:2

135:9 137:8

141:12 142:4

147:14 151:4

151:7 152:14

152:17

157:15 159:7

162:21 163:4

164:21

173:22

190:11 192:3

196:15

198:22 199:3

202:1 204:13

208:13

211:11,12

223:16

232:19

237:20,22

238:8,11,19

UNITARY1:3

United 184:9

units 10:13

12:21 27:17

32:15 52:17

52:22 53:2

54:22 55:14

55:16 91:6

91:18,18

92:4 98:6

115:12

131:17

133:22

149:21 150:1

151:9 153:8

153:20 154:4

157:17 158:4

159:2,8,12

168:22

190:10 196:1

196:3 197:1

201:8 202:9

202:15,16

205:2,4

208:12 211:4

216:21,22,22

237:14 242:5

242:5,6

universities

196:10

unless 109:8

109:11

125:17

149:15 166:9

200:15,17

209:6 223:21

unoccupied

214:19

unrealistic

152:14

unturned

177:18

unusual 138:8

up-sell 164:3

update 170:1

172:12,22

206:14,22

230:5

updated 7:3

10:9 14:2,18

64:21 65:1

244:5,5

updates 8:8

10:4,5

137:18 236:6

updating

188:9,19

206:18

upgrade 154:7

upon 70:4

81:17 95:12

96:15 98:8

128:20 135:8

150:22

151:11 176:6

177:12 202:9

209:19

upper 54:21

236:17

use 10:5,10,14

10:15 12:2
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

51

14:7,16 19:7

24:14,21

27:6 29:17

30:5 31:10

31:13,16

33:14 36:14

37:16 39:1

40:4 42:4

44:22 47:4

47:10,13

49:5 51:3,4

51:19 52:18

53:11 63:17

68:16 77:12

81:21 83:15

95:8 111:18

115:15

124:10,10

127:18

129:22

137:18

140:22

149:14 155:6

160:16,22

170:3 173:20

173:21 176:1

209:4 210:5

210:6 211:8

211:19 212:8

217:19

221:14,15

222:14

223:20 224:1

229:8 241:7

244:11,13

useful 49:4

234:22

user 138:8

uses 37:5,11

46:6

Usual 210:2

usually 12:12

23:1 164:2

164:16

165:12 197:8

201:11

utilities 138:3

V

V 99:11

VA 100:9

VAB 123:6

VAC 97:1,1,3

99:11

valid 161:20

161:20

validated

161:2

value 73:20

75:12 130:3

144:9 146:2

151:17

169:20 170:9

170:10 172:9

226:12

234:12

value-priced

121:13

values 13:19

117:11 138:7

151:16 155:8

158:12 226:9

vap 219:7,21

variability 15:8

18:16 20:1

143:17

211:11

variable 12:9

13:16 17:17

17:19 84:6

84:12,14

85:17 86:1

88:10 94:9

94:11,13,15

94:15 96:18

96:22 97:17

100:6 122:8

123:8 127:1

172:3

variable-spe...

128:17

variables

49:21

variation 13:3

variations

56:14

varied 138:10

varies 103:15

212:13

various 14:16

66:18 83:17

115:14

140:20

210:18

vary 86:5

100:6,20

138:11

146:10

varying212:8

VAV33:22

85:8 86:3,4

87:12 97:6

98:3,15,22

99:8,18

101:10

124:10,16

125:1,1

126:10 135:2

135:3,18

136:19

190:10 193:9

193:9 196:10

212:22

213:19

214:12,17,21

216:5,11,15

216:22 217:6

217:22 218:3

218:7,8,11

219:1

VCAV99:18

veal 166:16

velocity

214:21

vendors 203:3

ventilation

37:20 46:13

99:5 215:4

ventilation-h...

49:1

version 27:13

62:2,3 63:8

64:18 74:10

74:12,17

75:14 76:9

76:13 79:11

81:20

versions 77:13

versus 31:16

36:7 39:16

49:3 90:7

92:21 100:12

110:4 113:1

114:16

120:19

188:15 192:6

194:5 195:11

215:14

VFD 120:9

VFD's 113:10

113:11

VHD 113:4

via 2:20 3:5

view 236:5

237:11

vintage 11:12

12:7 13:8,15

14:2,5,9,21

15:3 18:14

18:15 20:9

24:2,7 25:12

25:21,22

26:12,21

vintages 15:7

visit 143:19

145:2

VIV 15:2

voltage 107:12

volume 12:9,9

13:16 34:1,2

36:8 84:2,3,4

84:6,12,12

84:14,15,15

85:7,18,20

86:1,5 88:9,9

88:10 94:9,9

94:11,12,13

94:15 96:13

96:14,18,18

96:21,22

97:16,17

98:2,19

100:3,7,13

102:9,10

113:1,1,5,7

114:8,13,13

114:20 115:2

117:12,18,22

120:21 121:6

123:4,8,10

123:11,13,14

124:19 125:2

125:3,8,12

125:13

134:19

137:14 147:5

147:12,13

172:3,3

216:10,20,22

217:4,10,11

217:12 218:3

218:5

volumes

118:21

vote 59:17

60:17 69:6

voting 71:11

W

wagons 177:3
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

52

wait 79:21

106:2 159:22

208:4

waiting 76:18

76:19

Wal-Mart

197:10

Walk-in 193:22

walked 185:9

walking

193:19

wall 50:8,8

Waltner 3:5

131:4,7,12

want 9:22

17:22 21:1

22:14 31:7

42:9 44:3

49:16 57:13

57:13 59:17

60:17 65:21

66:1 67:8,12

72:3,15,22

74:15,16

79:6,20

80:17 82:18

87:20 97:14

103:7 125:16

125:17 129:4

151:17

153:13 156:1

165:21 169:2

176:8 177:11

177:18,21

178:4,15

179:3 180:21

185:2 189:12

198:4 202:19

207:7 208:2

215:10

217:16

218:13

226:17,18

235:21 236:4

236:6 237:10

240:16

242:12

245:11

wanted 21:19

51:5 79:20

79:21 80:22

96:1 151:20

153:20

164:18

230:16

wants 65:18

184:21

warehouse

15:15

warehousing

193:6,11

warm 50:21

warranties

148:11

warrants

143:2 148:10

warranty

148:1,4,7,15

229:10

washes 122:3

wasn't 35:17

60:12 67:20

89:10 102:18

121:11

138:16

195:16 198:9

200:8 203:12

218:2 219:15

243:15

water 81:9

194:2 208:18

210:20

Watt 34:4

watts 45:21

way 20:17 22:1

22:1,21

28:15 30:1

35:8 37:21

37:22 40:5

48:6 50:8

53:21 67:18

69:19 102:11

107:9 109:17

110:21,21

120:15,19

121:1,4,10

122:10

124:14 125:7

135:4 136:22

141:1 156:3

160:19

162:20

166:10,12

168:9 200:17

202:20

204:15

208:14 215:8

222:15 223:7

223:14 227:4

228:5 231:3

231:7 235:3

235:9 239:19

239:21

240:17,18

243:16

ways 83:22

121:5 238:3

we'd 58:14

240:14,16

we're 4:7

10:12 11:22

13:6 14:15

20:22 28:11

28:13 29:5

34:14 36:5

43:6 44:17

45:12 50:19

52:22 54:20

55:14,22

58:9,9 59:11

59:11,14

61:19,22

65:11 66:8

66:17,21

67:6,9,19

68:9,21

69:15 70:22

71:1,7 72:3

72:20 73:3,4

74:7,8 75:3

76:18,19

80:5,6 83:18

84:1,4,8,16

85:1 88:7

89:3,4,5

90:19 91:22

92:3 93:8,14

93:15 94:18

95:10,15

96:8 101:17

102:1,2

105:22

106:18

107:14 108:5

117:15 119:2

124:3,12,14

128:8,14

129:6 131:21

133:19

134:16 135:1

135:10,12

139:3,12,14

139:16,17,21

140:3 142:18

143:13 144:4

144:5 146:4

147:18

149:10 150:3

150:5,7,8

151:5,6,15

152:4 154:6

158:8,20

160:1,12

162:9 168:13

170:11 171:3

171:22 172:2

172:4,11

174:13

176:13

185:17

186:12 189:3

194:7,8

196:1,2

200:19 201:1

208:18,21

209:13

212:12

214:17

216:16

217:10,13,14

217:16 218:6

221:2,19

222:15 223:2

225:6,20

226:1,2,4,9

228:18

235:20

239:15

240:18

241:17 243:3

244:1,4,20

244:22 246:1

we've 9:9 10:4

10:9 13:8

14:2,18

28:19 62:9

63:6 68:6,15

69:19 71:19

71:22 72:4

90:13 91:1

120:13 167:2

178:2 179:3

200:21

202:22

216:20

229:15 236:9

wear 186:7

weary 47:12

weather 57:4

241:7
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

53

weatherized

241:10

web 128:15

232:17

webinar 3:16

245:14 246:1

weeble 162:11

week 50:6

92:2 95:2

128:2 147:3

150:21

171:17

172:18

205:11,12

243:21

244:14 246:2

week's 160:21

weeks 202:22

228:3

weight 11:13

12:19 31:17

95:13 97:19

103:17

104:18 105:7

105:21 108:7

108:22

109:20

110:10 112:9

127:2,5,8,18

128:10

129:15 130:1

185:7 209:13

weighted 18:9

25:18 170:3

221:21,22

weighting

109:13

weightings

25:4

weights 19:10

24:12 25:16

30:9 38:18

welcome

163:6

went 7:17,17

10:18 29:21

35:20 40:15

43:8 106:6

106:15,15

108:11 112:8

128:7,15

156:15 157:1

200:1 230:14

236:17 237:2

Westphalen

4:16,16

45:17,18

46:5,11

47:19,22

89:18,19

113:16 114:3

114:6 115:8

116:5,14,20

117:14 118:3

119:17 120:7

120:12 121:3

121:8,18

122:6,15

126:20

179:13,14

180:4,21

190:5,18,22

191:12 192:2

192:11

196:17 198:2

198:8,18

199:2,9,16

200:19

201:14,20

202:4 203:1

205:8,15,19

206:4,13

207:6,8,17

207:19,22

228:6

Westphanen

3:6

Whatever's

223:13

whatnot

101:18 204:1

233:1

when's 166:22

whenever

80:13 81:22

where 6:8 9:12

17:18 25:2

33:1 36:10

39:1 45:7,11

46:20 54:20

55:11 61:6

71:17 78:18

79:6 82:7

86:13 87:21

100:20 113:7

117:16

121:19

130:15

132:20,21

137:15 141:9

144:11

145:15

147:15 156:9

156:22

157:18,21

158:9 167:4

170:4 174:11

175:1,16

178:6 179:6

179:8 182:7

183:11,15

185:12,13

186:18,22

199:19

200:11

210:19 212:2

212:18 213:8

213:10

217:11,14

222:22 226:9

226:12,12

whether 12:8

58:7 68:11

84:11 87:9

90:22 96:13

97:5 98:1

99:21 107:20

108:15 111:2

116:7 117:1

123:3 127:17

129:4 135:8

135:13 143:2

145:16

146:16

153:20

157:11 205:9

205:11

206:17 209:1

209:2,9,14

213:22

242:21

Whitwell 3:7

4:19,19 6:2,3

6:15 7:6,11

7:15 8:3,20

9:1,8,17,20

15:9 39:14

39:14,19

40:2,5,22

41:3,7,11,16

42:19 56:20

63:20 100:14

100:14,20

101:1,6,13

112:18,19

113:11 115:1

119:12 120:8

120:17,22

121:5 122:4

122:19

123:10,17

125:5 129:2

129:9 132:6

133:14,17

134:3,11

174:16 181:8

181:10,13

182:2,10

184:13

185:22 186:4

186:14 187:6

188:1,4,7

192:17

194:19 195:7

195:10

198:15

199:12

201:16

202:14

206:10

207:15 214:8

214:14,20

216:19 217:4

218:13

219:20

225:16

226:21

227:19

228:15 229:7

230:11

231:16,21

238:11,17

239:9,17

241:12 242:7

243:9,15

who's 78:8

whole 23:5

24:10 53:12

82:13 137:2

160:1 163:20

182:2 186:20

203:17 204:1

204:3,7,8

211:14

236:10 240:2

241:8

wholehearte...

74:21

whom 247:4

Williams 3:8
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

54

93:21 144:16

144:18 145:4

149:8 221:17

222:10 224:9

224:13,16

willing 11:9

willy-nilly 66:6

Wilson 1:8

windshield

143:19

winners

232:22

Winningham

3:9 5:1,1

116:10,17,21

117:7 121:21

122:12,18

162:8 189:20

190:1

winter 181:18

wire 88:3

106:19 107:5

107:20

wiring 107:3,4

within 12:18

15:17 58:10

64:22 81:6

101:11,11

127:19

190:12 192:8

196:20

won't 62:13

105:19 107:5

169:14

184:17,18

190:21

214:14

242:18 244:6

244:7

wonder 113:1

wondering

111:1 133:20

146:15

words 30:14

32:10 47:5

97:10 112:11

118:11

129:16,19

182:8 183:19

202:1 210:4

212:22

223:19 241:8

work 6:16 8:11

8:14,15 9:22

33:1 36:1

42:17 70:12

107:6 176:8

176:9 177:12

191:15 208:5

208:5 211:5

213:12

241:19

worked 20:15

78:6 152:18

161:8

working 1:5

5:16 9:2 28:7

62:20 67:15

71:1 72:14

74:5,7 83:2

86:16 126:19

132:13 176:9

190:6 203:4

243:17

works 137:10

world 38:6,14

38:15 117:8

234:2

worried

185:17,18

189:15

worry 242:13

worse 21:5

39:3,6

worth 143:20

206:18

219:15

222:16

worthwhile

197:16

Wow 38:2

wrapping

145:14

write 134:20

242:1

writing 219:18

written 58:19

58:19 164:20

wrong 38:14

60:1 113:18

148:1,5

156:16

165:18

219:16

221:10

223:21

wrote 239:12

X

Xing 3:10

Xu 3:10

Xxxeven

111:13

xxxit 113:8

xxxmay 140:7

XxxMike 58:6

XxxMR 189:20

xxxstaff 206:1

xxxtwo-stage

35:18

xxxx/KA 77:6

Xxxxthat's

24:6

Xxyou 168:18

Y

Y 15:19 162:16

yeah 7:13 8:20

17:8,16 25:9

34:13 35:19

40:22 42:7

44:10 46:10

51:1 52:7

56:7 57:6,12

58:5,21

72:17 81:14

86:16,20

93:5 95:1

97:12 100:22

103:6 106:13

113:16,21

114:7 118:2

120:14,22

126:9 127:10

132:11

133:14 136:3

136:20 139:5

141:3 144:13

144:18 145:8

145:10 148:9

151:19

154:14,20

159:17

162:16

167:12 169:8

170:17

174:18 180:4

181:8 182:2

182:16 184:5

185:22

187:19 188:1

188:20

189:12

190:18

194:19 195:7

199:16

204:18

205:15

206:13

207:21

212:19 217:2

221:4 227:3

230:18 235:6

235:21

239:13

241:14,14

year 14:13

17:18 18:5,8

20:8 31:8

61:8 70:9

139:9 142:21

144:8,12

146:5 148:6

150:4 162:3

165:21

167:21 173:4

173:17 189:8

202:18 221:1

222:6 231:12

231:20 242:5

242:6,6

years 16:15,19

17:1,4 20:15

23:22 31:8

78:7 81:22

91:4,5 99:10

145:1,3

146:1 148:4

148:19,21

150:17

151:10

152:13,18

153:3,9

154:11 157:2

157:19 158:2

158:18 159:9

161:4,9,10

161:22 162:1

162:21 164:8

164:19

165:10 167:3

168:6 184:19

185:16

192:21

222:19

223:10 224:1

224:2,17

225:16 229:1

232:20,20

Yep 45:3 48:16

187:2 238:17
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

55

yesterday 4:4

7:22 10:18

20:21 21:5

27:20 88:22

115:9,20

130:10

131:15 132:1

132:7,13

191:13,20

196:18

211:18

237:15

239:13

yesterday's

208:20

yet 34:17 58:9

66:10 94:6

100:16 110:1

172:17

191:20

216:16

238:13

yield 105:16

YO 152:9

York 111:16

Z

Zendah 3:11

4:18,18

zero 54:13

104:22 105:9

113:22 147:6

147:6 185:11

zone 11:11

25:3

zones 25:4

0

0.25 29:1

0.35 29:2

00 40:16

01 40:16

1

1.029 54:7

1.13 53:13

1.25 29:3,5,18

30:6,18,22

34:11,15

46:4 208:18

1.3 53:16

1.5 54:9

1:56 246:4

10 57:16 77:10

197:15

202:12

223:10

10-ton 199:22

10-year-old

162:21

10,000 12:12

36:4 95:16

103:5 111:5

234:10 242:5

100 22:6

194:15

100,000 221:8

242:5

1010 102:12

1033 24:15,18

25:11 26:10

26:11

105 224:2,3

11 223:10

1100 111:6

12 1:7 102:12

223:10

12,000 111:5

12.2 6:6,17

12.4 6:18 7:1

45:22

12.9 103:3

12:30 178:21

12:35 178:20

1200 45:21

1207 136:5

13 53:13 218:6

224:20

225:12,16

13-7 228:17

13,000 35:20

39:6 40:16

130 128:22

13709 39:7

14 218:6

14.0 40:12

14.078 231:16

14.5 40:13,13

14.8 36:22

37:4,6 39:16

47:9

14.9 40:12

1463 105:17

15 6:16,17 7:2

7:10,11 16:7

16:7 17:1

21:18 29:2

31:8 35:17

51:1 53:22

85:11 99:16

100:1 102:8

102:13

105:16 148:3

155:2 157:17

158:2 161:3

161:8 167:3

191:1 205:2

217:15 244:6

15-story 28:2

15-ton 6:8

36:16 51:17

52:17 84:19

230:13

15.5 7:16,18

15.6 7:17

15.8 37:4 38:7

39:16

1500 105:21

1504 46:1

15th 42:12,18

16 161:4,22

162:3 167:3

205:22

16-year 155:2

1600 95:8

148:20 149:3

166100 217:8

17 150:17

167:5

17-year 150:16

174 40:16

18 91:4 157:1

158:2,5

18-year 158:12

18.4 6:18 7:13

156:8,12

18.5 6:19

18.7 156:8,12

180 79:18

128:22

1818 136:4

19 21:8 230:8

19.9 37:1,3

40:14

1980 14:6

1999 14:6 24:4

168:4,13,18

19th 35:4

1st 75:7

2

2 29:9,13

53:16

2,000 128:7

2.5 6:6 30:5,6

39:13 51:6

51:10 97:5

20 17:2,3,13

20:15 52:20

53:4,22 93:3

130:11

141:15 143:5

143:11

149:22 150:1

152:7 153:11

153:11 159:1

159:9 192:14

194:9 197:11

197:14

198:17

200:14 201:2

201:17

202:12 220:9

20' 70:10

20's 184:7,9

20-ton 129:20

197:1

20-year 148:3

20,000 102:13

200 135:4

138:3 194:13

200,000

163:10,11

2000 14:6 16:2

16:4,5 17:1

18:9 19:22

20:6 168:4

2000-2012

16:18 17:14

2003 23:16

2007 61:7

2008 61:7

168:11

2010 61:8

2011 168:21

2012 14:6,15

15:12,13

18:9 27:7

168:12

2013 7:2 14:6

16:20 19:22

23:16,17

24:3,6,7,8

139:11,14

213:14

2014 139:11

168:21

2015 1:7 14:18

74:10,11

76:12 139:11

139:12,15
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

56

2019 14:4,7

16:20 19:22

24:4 27:2

73:3,14

21 91:5 155:9

157:1,6

158:4,18

159:8

21.1 156:14

21.5 103:5

210 210:19

2111 1:8

22 162:1

206:11

23 155:9

25 6:16 40:17

42:3 119:2

153:3 166:7

197:11

25,000 189:8

195:5

250 135:4

2508 231:17

2600 135:21

27 153:11

2750 104:22

28th 86:18

29.5 122:2

29.9 122:2

3

3 31:11 36:19

39:11 47:8

47:10,16

48:9 51:22

52:5 98:1

3.5 39:13

45:22 47:16

3.54 36:20

30 6:12 16:15

17:4,10 53:3

78:7 98:15

98:16,17

99:4,6

129:12,21,22

130:11

151:10

152:13 153:9

157:8,19

167:5 172:16

178:18

190:19 191:1

194:11,15

197:6 198:5

198:17

199:14 200:7

200:14,19

201:17 202:8

202:9 205:2

214:13,18,19

216:5,8,15

217:22 244:7

30-ton 7:15

27:11 91:17

105:17

141:12

148:22

150:14 151:9

155:11 190:6

192:3 202:8

244:2

30-tons 151:3

157:18

30-year 17:10

30ton 172:17

310 128:22

32 182:12

183:21

185:11

32.7 156:14

3212 105:17

34 155:9

34.60 63:14

340 245:19

340.360xxxx

71:20

343.60 61:7,15

62:7 63:12

64:5 74:8

35 78:8 212:3

3500 35:21

36 153:9 157:4

157:6,19

360 245:19

3xxx 30:5

4

4 6:9 47:16

87:16 134:17

4.3 53:19

4.4 231:5

232:1

4.5 231:5

4.66 170:10

40 87:10,16

152:18 153:9

201:2,17

202:3 214:11

216:9,17

217:7,8

40's 197:9

40-foot 238:6

40-ton 152:17

198:17

400 136:5

410 207:1

410A 207:11

42 100:16,19

100:20

429 78:14 79:4

430 77:9,11

78:13,16

430.2 77:12

431 79:3,4

431.68 78:20

4360 79:11

4361 104:22

44 207:15

45 178:19,20

5

5 33:5 47:16

51:22 52:3

87:21 97:5

99:15 100:1

103:4 134:17

137:13

217:15 237:5

237:7

5.5 231:5

5.7 231:5

50 34:10 35:12

100:2 119:3

121:17

211:12

50-50 93:21

188:15 194:5

50491 188:21

52 114:14

120:5,17,18

5200 164:6

55 15:19 216:3

6

6 200:15

6,000 36:5

102:11

6.2 170:18

171:10

60 85:13 86:18

129:7,17

130:15,16

194:10 197:7

197:8 217:12

217:14

62.1 216:3

66 125:6

67 98:6 125:9

6850 103:3

7

7 30:22 182:19

182:19 205:1

205:2 225:2

225:12

7.5 103:2

157:17 191:1

7.75 29:4

70 17:11

181:18 194:9

70-20 188:16

70-story 112:1

71 135:19

73 126:14

139:5

75 29:18 30:7

34:10,15

134:11

208:18

757 30:18

78 20:5,6,8

786 105:16

8

8 170:19

193:14

8.5 191:2

8.9 170:15

8:00 1:9

80 187:10

81 187:11

82 179:22

181:2 183:4

184:14

186:13

828's 188:18

89 18:13

9

9,000 36:6

9:11 57:16

90 18:14 93:2

138:3

90.1 21:11

30:2 205:21

208:16,19

213:6 215:13

215:18,22

216:3

90.13 7:1

91.1 7:2

95 25:17

99 20:9 133:17
Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

57

134:7 168:11