### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Suite GH-035, Forrestal Building Washington, D.C.

Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:10 a.m.

Reported by: Janel Benoit Folsom, Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FACILITATOR 3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 PARTICIPANTS 5 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 6 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 7 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice 8 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 9 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 10 Alex Bosenberg, NEMA 11 Robert Brown, WaterFurnace International, Inc. 12 John Clements, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc 13 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 14 Mary Dane, Traulsen 15 Laura Degitz, Navigant Consulting 16 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 17 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 18 Jill Hootman, Trane 19 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 20 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 21 Diane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 22 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued) 3 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar 4 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC 5 Aris Marantan, Ph.D., U.S. Department of Energy 6 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 7 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 8 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. 9 Michael Rivest, Navigant Consulting 10 Wes Roan, Bard Manufacturing Company, Inc. 11 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy 12 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 13 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 14 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 15 Judd Smith, CSA International 16 Mike Stem, Intertek 17 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 18 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 19 Corey Tucker, Navigant Consulting 20 Kevin Washington, ITW 21 Collin Weber, Navigant Consulting 22 Robert J. Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued) 3 Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises 4 Wes Wostal, ClimateMasters, Inc. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MS. BARHYDT: We are going to start with 3 some of the products that we haven't gone through yet. 4 So we're actually going to go step by step through 5 definitions and the different features for water 6 cooled, evaporatively cooled. And Corey is going to 7 be putting them on the slides as we go through. And 8 so we actually need your all's feedback on what 9 exactly the tasks are and probably do some of the 10 information gathering. Just pick one. 11 Okay. So condenser pumps, valves, and 12 fittings are additional components in the water 13 circuit for water control of filtering. So can 14 somebody describe what exactly these are, the impact, 15 market share, the same sorts of things that we have 16 gone through before? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: We're still on commercial 18 HVAC. Is that correct? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Water source. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Jill, are you the only 22 manufacturer in the room who --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Where's McQuay? 2 MR. JOHNSON: Right here. 3 MALE SPEAKER: There may be some people on 4 the phone, too. 5 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. There should be some 6 people on the phone. 7 MR. SACHS: I wonder if it would be possible 8 to print these out. It might be an awful lot easier 9 to look at. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's going to be a while. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have internet? 12 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Can you email it to Dave? 14 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it just pages 8 through 16 10? 17 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. As I am looking 19 at this, the numbers in column 1 seem to be sort of 20 arbitrary, carried forward from other technologies. 21 MR. THARP: Yes. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 MR. SACHS: So we should be able to kill a 2 bunch of them pretty quick. 3 MR. THARP: Well, these are the ones that 4 are 5

-- 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's already edited that 7 way. 8 MR. SACHS: Where did you find it? 9 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's already edited that 10 way. 11 MS. BARHYDT: How many copies do we need? 12 MR. SACHS: Do I have that? 13 MR. THARP: Thirty. 14 MALE SPEAKER: Is this a file that's up on 15 the SharePoint? 16 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know if this one is 17 on SharePoint or not. Yes, it's on SharePoint. It's 18 on SharePoint from July 1st. 19 MR. STEPHENS: John, I'd say probably about 20 33-34. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. Do you want me to 22 walk through each one of these or what?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 2 MR. JOHNSON: So on that list, just so you 3 know, we just added like four or five water source 4 heat pump options. The rest of them really aren't 5 applicable. So we should really only be talking about 6 five options at the most. 7 MS. TUCKER: Yes. I've got five. I have 8 condenser water reheat because someone brought it up 9 in one of the other meetings. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. That was Wes from 11 ClimateMasters. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Would you like me to leave it 13 on the list? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, you should leave it on 15 the list. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 17 MR. JOHNSON: He's on the line. He can 18 explain that because I think ClimateMasters is the 19 only one that does that. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So yes. I have six, 21 including -- yes. I have -- 22 MR. JOHNSON: Then that's about right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 MR. THARP: Well, there's an additional 2 slide. Do you have -- I can give you an additional 3 slide that they sent on the condenser water reheat. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. THARP: They sent -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I'll give this back. 7 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from 8 ClimateMasters. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Hey, Wes. 11 MR. WOSTAL: How are you guys doing? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Hot. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a bad question to 14 ask. 15 MR. WOSTAL: I like yesterday morning's 16 start, rather than this one, at 7:00 o'clock. 17 The condenser water reheat, I sent an 18 identification of that during the last meeting or I 19 think right after the last meeting. And I believe I 20 sent it to -- I forget the gentleman's name, but he's 21 with McQuay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Tom.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 MR. JOHNSON: We got it, Wes. 2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. Are we still 4 flipping around or -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I can go back. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: We have gone back and forth 7 between these two slides that I have got to figure 8 out. So condenser pumps, valves, fittings, every 9 system once installed in the field needs these. We do 10 as a -- you know, we ship with most systems. Well, we 11 can ship with most systems these specialties for them 12 to install in the field, but they are unique to each 13 application depending on how much piping is going to 14 get done, what size fittings, what size valves, where 15 they're going to put them in, all that kind of stuff. 16 It is very customer-specific. 17 MR. STEPHENS: So Jill? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: We have a package. We 19 typically have some packages of those they get shipped 20 with and installed in the field. 21 MR. STEPHENS: This is Phillip Stephens from 22 HTP. Just to make sure everybody understands, this is

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 the circulation pump that actually circulates the 2 water 3

-- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 5 MR. STEPHENS: -- into the ground -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 7 MR. STEPHENS: -- and returns it so that it 8 comes out at the right temperature. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I worked in 11 this field for several years. And that was a long 12 time ago. But there are a couple of observations I 13 would like to make. One of them is I have a strong 14 impression that when this stuff is put in at the 15 factory, it gives fewer problems than when it is 16 field-installed and also costs less. 17 The second is we are seeing a trend toward 18 the use of small cassette pumps and integrated into 19 the water source heat pump, instead of two-way valves, 20 so that you basically are taking a large loop, which 21 might have 50 water source heat pumps on it or ground 22 source heat pumps, and you're simply using a very

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 small main circulator. You're not worried about 2 laminar flow at low velocities, at low loads. And 3 then the cassette pump diverts water into that heat 4 pump and reinjects it into the same single loop. 5 It goes back to an ancient McQuay system. 6 It was a McQuay mono block or whatever it was called, 7 but that is replacing all of the valves. And, again, 8 we're seeing more interest in the integration for 9 economics and reliability and simplification of the 10 build process in the field. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Correct, but these are all 12 part of the system; right? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. SACHS: Right. 15 MR. JOHNSON: And so the basic unit has none 16 of this. 17 MR. SACHS: And the ISO standard, which we 18 have adopted, is testing without these pumps. 19 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Exactly. So -- 20 MR. SACHS: And so it seem to be -- 21 MR. JOHNSON: -- the list only -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So if you put them in,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 it would actually add restriction in the water 2 circulation such that it would, you know, cause a 3 degradation on your performance as a testing. 4 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from 5 ClimateMasters. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead, Wes. 7 MR. WOSTAL: The ISO standard, it takes into 8 account this pump. There is a pump penalty that is 9 figured into the calculation for efficiency. 10 MR. SACHS: Wes, this is Harvey. The bottom 11 line for me is that this is a field that is relatively 12 small, a couple of hundred thousand units a year, as I 13 recall. And it seems a whole lot better, more 14 sensible to align the DOE processes with what are 15 international standards that have been adopted in this 16 country than to try to modify the wheel to go over our 17 terrain. 18 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Wes, 19 it's a penalty calculation. It's not a measured 20 value, though; right, in the ISO standard? 21 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, yes. Well, it is based on 22 the pressure drop across the water condenser, the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 coil, the water coil, and the flow rate. You take the 2 pressure drop across the water coil and the flow rate. 3 And there is a penalty calculated that is a watt 4 calculation. 5 MR. FLY: Right. 6 MR. WOSTAL: And that gives you the watts 7 that are added in to overcome the resistance of the 8 water coil for pumping. 9 MR. FLY: So it is in this case part of the 10 test procedure? 11 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: It is, but you wouldn't want 13 to add on these other shipped-with items because then 14 it would be -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: Doubled. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- doubled as well as -- you 17 know, the pump factor is there, but the valves and the 18 fittings also have some loss, too. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Right. 20 MR. SACHS: I thought geothermal was a free 21 lunch. So I move that bullet one not be condensable, 22 that bullet 1 not be present during DOE testing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 MS. BARHYDT: Say that one more time. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: He agrees with our position. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's all she wanted to 5 hear. 6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Take a vote or are we going 8 to do them all? 9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any further discussion 10 or should we vote? 11 Anybody object to this? Anybody abstain? 12 Okay. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is the description good 14 enough? It seems a little succinct compared to 15 others. I'm not familiar with this technology at all. 16 MR. SACHS: You're going to test a naked 17 unit. 18 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I think that 19 covers it. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 21 MR. SACHS: Wes, on bullet 2, -- this is 22 Harvey -- the corrosion-resistant water coil, my sense

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1

-- 2 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, sir? 3 MR. SACHS: -- is that you all just use a 4 cupronickel one in an aggressive environment and that 5 we don't see coated condenser coils at all because 6 it's a tube in tube usually still. 7 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. It's tube in tube. And 8 the application for a corrosion-resistant water coil, 9 the cupronickel that you mentioned, which is that is 10 the industry corrosion-resistant coil, that is for 11 open loops, where there is no control over the water 12 that is entering the unit, the quality of the water, 13 so to speak. 14 Now, you know, in this situation, we're 15 talking about water loop heat pump, which is a closed16 loop application, your boiler tower-type situation. 17 And the bottom line is it's a situation where I would 18 say -- I don't want to say "never," but probably if it 19 ever happens, it's a fraction of a percent. You know, 20 I would literally say it never happens. 21 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, Wes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 MR. SACHS: So we just want to strike that 2 bullet, I think. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: That was easy. Electric 5 heaters. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Electric heaters can be an 7 option and be mounted in the discharge. And because 8 it's a smaller cabinet, it can have a little bit of an 9 impact on the static pressure on the fan members. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So we test electric resistance 11 heaters for the other HVAC equipment. Why do we not 12 here? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: You would not be testing 14 electric resistance heaters in a heat pump in those 15 applications. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is supplemental heat 18 over. Then, what the heat pump can do at certain 19 conditions, -- 20 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: -- certain ambient conditions. 22 So these do add extra pressure drop in the system, but

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 you are not doing that in commercial HVAC. 2 MR. WOSTAL: Right. This is Wes. I agree 3 with that. And, actually, I don't know about the rest 4 of the industry, but the heat kits that we sell that 5 would go into this application, they cannot even be 6 mounted in our unit. It's a Stab-in duct heater. So 7 I don't even know how we would test this. 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I guess I'm 9 having trouble thinking about heating application in a 10 commercial context, where I might want that with a 11 boiler sitting in that train. Certainly we see it in 12 residential. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: You get some cold zones and, 14 you know, depending upon how much glass there is in 15 the cold zone and stuff like that. So it's kind of a 16 spot thing. It is not used a lot. Ours do attach to 17 our unit. But he's right. The test setup would be a 18 question. I'm not quite sure how you even do it in 19 the test procedure. 20 MR. SACHS: Well, Jill, do you all 21 occasionally install these as reheat for additional 22 dehumidification?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 MR. JOHNSON: No, not -- 2 MR. WOSTAL: Well, that would be a terrible 3 way to do it. 4 MR. SACHS: Well, I understand that, but the 5 designers have idiosyncrasies. 6 MR. JOHNSON: No. It's totally supplemental 7 heat. 8 MR. SACHS: Good. Thank you. Thank you 9 very much. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, very good point. For 11 that reheat application, 90.1 would not be very 12 favorable to that. 13 MALE SPEAKER: It's not recycled heat. 14 MR. SACHS: So is 90.1, past 99, applicable 15 in Alabama? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Not even in Tennessee. I 17 mean, my suggestion would be that you don't test or 18 order these with them. 19 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I would agree 20 with that. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: And partly because I -- I am 22 not an expert on this test procedure. I haven't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 physically seen it set up. But I would think you 2 would have a problem even doing the test procedure 3 with it in there. Wes, what do you think? How could 4 you do the test procedure with an electric heater in 5 there? 6 MR. WOSTAL: I don't know. You know, in our 7 situation, they would literally have to take the 8 heater and, you know, stab it into the duct some 9 distance down from the unit. It is just something 10 especially for a commercial application -- you know, 11 commercial buildings are dominant, are typically 12 cooling- dominated. It is just not something that -- 13 it is a very, very small percentage of the time that 14 it happens. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So it sounds like this is a 16 stand-alone external duct heater and it's not part of 17 this unit. 18 MR. JOHNSON: They can be unit-mounted in 19 some 20

-- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Ours -- 22 MR. WOSTAL: In our situation, that is the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 way it is -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 3 MR. WOSTAL: -- in ClimateMasters' 4 situation. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So it can be either. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Either/or. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Either/or. Ours is unit8 mounted, but it's unit-mounted on the discharge. So 9 in a way, it's kind of -- 10 MR. THARP: Like a bolt-on. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It's a bolt-on, 12 exactly. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We're okay with that. 14 MR. EISNER: Anybody object? Anybody 15 abstain? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you'll just need a unit 17 to test that does not have this that's -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's easy. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Grille options. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, kind of like we have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 discussed in other HVAC products, you know, there are 2 specialty architectural grilles that can be added to 3 these. Typically, this is attached to ductwork, but 4 there are some specialty architectural kind of grille 5 options. They do add extra pressure drop, but a unit 6 is -- 7 MALE SPEAKER: There are lots of consoles. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- is on a console unit, yes, 9 like, you know, you think about -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in a hotel or classroom. 12 MR. JOHNSON: So, like we discussed before, 13 like in a PTAC, you have a standard grille. And 14 that's what you would want for the test -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you do. 16 MR. JOHNSON: -- because any specialty 17 grille would be a special grille or an option. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Are you all okay with -- I 19 don't remember exactly what language we had for -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: -- the PTAC grilles -- 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- but if we can grab that 2 language? 3 MR. WHITWELL: You said, "Test with a 4 standard grille." 5 MS. HOOTMAN: "Test with a standard grille." 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object to this? 8 Any abstain? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Make a note to go back and 10 look at the PTAC language. 11 Condenser water reheat. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Wes, you can talk about 13 condenser water reheat. 14 MR. WOSTAL: It is basically identical to 15 hot gas reheat with the exception that, instead of 16 diverting hot gas from the compressor to a coil that 17 is in the airstream to reheat the air to then 18 basically cause the unit to run longer to dehumidify 19 the air, we are using the valve to divert water from 20 the condenser coil into a coil to reheat the air. So 21 essentially, I think the definition that I sent you 22 guys was it's identical to the hot gas reheat except

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 for everywhere that the word "refrigerant" was used, I 2 replaced it with water from the condenser or condenser 3 wall. Yes, that's the definition I sent. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: So, Wes, units can be ordered 5 without this; correct? 6 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. Oh, yes. We sell -- 7 every product that we offer this as an option is 8 available without it as well. 9 MR. THARP: What percentage of the market 10 buys it? 11 MR. WOSTAL: It's a low percentage. It's I 12 would say one, two percent, something like that. 13 MR. JOHNSON: This should be something that 14 you test without. 15 MR. WOSTAL: My feeling is that it would be 16 treated like the standard hot gas reheat. 17 MR. EISNER: Anybody object? Anybody 18 abstain? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Desuperheaters. 20 MR. JOHNSON: Again, this is Tom Johnson. 21 An option that I think the definition -- you just tie 22 into this issue using -- the heat would normally go

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 back to the loop to be domestic hot water. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Can you move up towards the 3 table so we can make sure we get you? 4 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. 5 Desuperheaters, they're an option that you're 6 basically using hot gas off of the compressor or 7 super-heated gas off of the compressor, too, that is 8 directed through another coil to heat domestic water. 9 And it is a residential option for us or that is 10 predominantly where it is sold. We do offer it 11 commercially, but I would say it is -- I'll bet maybe 12 one out of every 1,000 units we sell commercially gets 13 a desuperheater coil in it, just simply because 14 there's not a demand for having supplemental heating 15 of hot water commercially. It's done in other ways. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. This is a one percent 17 option. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So 20 the net effect would be pressure drop and water loop, 21 which 22

--

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 2 MR. FLY: -- could be in this calculation 3 that 4

-- 5 MR. WOSTAL: Well, there's no pressure drop 6 in the water loop. This is a separate coil. 7 MR. FLY: Oh. This is in the refrigeration 8 system, right? 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 10 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. 11 MR. WHITWELL: It's going to add pressure 12 drop 13

-- 14 MR. FLY: Drop in the refrigeration system 15 and 16

-- 17 MR. WHITWELL: -- on the high side. 18 MR. FLY: Yes, right. 19 MR. WOSTAL: Essentially, what this is doing 20 is it's acting like an -- it's increasing the surface 21 area of your coaxial heat exchangers is what it's 22 doing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 MR. WHITWELL: But at the rating condition, 2 it's not. You're not getting that benefit. 3 MR. WOSTAL: I'm sorry? I couldn't hear 4 that. 5 MR. WHITWELL: The current test procedure, 6 you wouldn't get that benefit because you don't have 7 water flowing through that as part of -- 8 MR. WOSTAL: That is correct. You are 9 correct about that. You are correct. 10 MR. WHITWELL: And this is actually an 11 option that could be applied to an HVAC, a standard 12 HVAC, unit as well. I think that Lennox -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Lennox does. 14 MR. WHITWELL: -- has introduced this. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: He probably doesn't -- 16 MR. THARP: He's not here today. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Dave's sitting in for him, but 18 Lennox does have that system. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So do we need to add this 20 stage? 21 MR. WHITWELL: We should add that stage 22 HVAC.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 MS. BARHYDT: And it's not covered by one of 2 the other -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: No. This is for potable hot 4 water heating or potable water heating. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my question to Harvey, 6 more than anyone, is this an efficient way of heating 7 water relative to other ways? 8 MR. THARP: It's almost like a heat pump 9 water heater. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's free. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: It's like an economizer for -- 13 MR. AMRANE: It's free. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. It can boost the 16 efficiency of the air conditioning system when it's 17 running. 18 MR. WOSTAL: The problem is it's only 19 supplemental. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I just wanted -- 21 MR. SACHS: As Wes says, it's only 22 supplemental. And the system efficiency is enormously

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 dependent on what is downstream of that desuperheater 2 in terms of series water tanks or a single water tank. 3 But it's very widely used in residential. But for 4 commercial, I think the reason it's so rare is that 5 the juxtaposition of the heat pump and the water 6 heater for that commercial application in close 7 proximity is pretty rare. So it's just -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 9 MR. WOSTAL: Right. 10 MR. SACHS: It's a bride looking for a 11 groom. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the crossover that 13 you see is -- I know a particular doctor's office. It 14 happens to be in an old house, you know. And so 15 that's the crossover. It's a commercial building now, 16 but it was really built as a house. And it has a 17 geothermal system. And it has -- 18 MR. SACHS: But I'll bet that's a single19 phase residential unit. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It may very well be. Yes. 21 MR. WOSTAL: Right. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's the kind of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 crossover you see, is just something that gets 2 repurposed as a commercial application. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So 4 I've got to ask the combined appliance question. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I knew you were going to ask 6 that. 7 MR. SACHS: We can't keep meeting like this. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a different 9 rulemaking. I'm going to keep answering it the same 10 way. 11 MR. AMRANE: There is a new ASHRAE standard. 12 It just came out. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 14 MR. STEPHENS: And it's just coincidence I'm 15 sitting beside Harvey. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I know. 17 MR. EISNER: Any objections to this 18 language? 19 Any abstentions? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. HVAC. Everybody okay 21 with that vote running for both the HVAC ? 22 Okay.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's all I had for water 2 source. 3 MS. BARHYDT: That's it for water source. 4 Okay. 5 So the list that we have has two features 6 for evaporative cooling. Are there others? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Was this yours, Marshall? 8 MR. HUNT: Yes. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So the 35 and 36 in 10 the yellow highlight? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Are those features for 12 commercial HVAC or were you talking about -- 13 MR. THARP: So we're all the way done with 14 the water source here? 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're done, yes. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Done with water source. 17 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. So we're ready for 35? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 19 MR. JOHNSON: One thing, on the basic model 20 description on water source -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 MR. JOHNSON: -- we want to make one minor 2 change. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Thank you. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Instead of -- 5 MR. THARP: Instead of "by air flow," do it 6 "by capacity." 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. I don't know why we had 8 "air flow" in there. It should be "by capacity." 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal rated. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Nominally rated. 11 MR. THARP: Yes. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: That wasn't a "Yes" or "No" 13 question. 14 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again, 15 ClimateMasters. The comparable capacity, some of the 16 other groups have had, you know, within 1,500 Btu, 17 2,000 Btu; some have had the same or comparable 18 nominal capacity. The reason that capacity was left 19 out originally here was because the original DOE 20 definition of a basic model as I read it did not refer 21 to capacity. So when Karim asked our group to put 22 together a definition, this is what we submitted.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 Now, after the meetings have started and 2 everybody -- you know, I have seen what everybody else 3 has. I see that everybody else has capacity. So I 4 did figure this would come up. But I would like to 5 have something in there that either has a plus or 6 minus on the capacity or maybe it says, "Nominal 7 capacity." I guess my first question is, what is the 8 definition of nominal in this situation? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Good question. 10 MR. WOSTAL: I've seen that the air source 11 definition has "nominal," same or comparable nominal, 12 I think. And I've seen others have, you know, 13 actually, plus or minus Btu. 14 MS. BARHYDT: My understanding was that -- 15 MR. WOSTAL: But I've not seen anywhere 16 where nominal was defined. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding was that - 18 - sorry? What was that, Jill? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm looking up something. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Is it defined in the HRA 21 guides? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: In 343.60, I'm pretty sure it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 is, but I don't know that it is in this one. 2 MS. BARHYDT: In 343.60, it is incorporated 3 by reference. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal is described in 5 343.60, but I don't think it is described in this 6 particular test standard. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what you're saying. 8 Okay. Not for the water source. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. This is a minus sign. 10 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. I don't have the 11 standard in front of me, Karim. I don't know if you 12 know off the top of your head if it's in there. 13 MR. AMRANE: No, I don't. 14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 15 MALE SPEAKER: I'm looking at it right now, 16 and it's not. 17 MS. BARHYDT: It's not? What is nominal in 18 343.60? 19 MR. THARP: Actually, nominal is used one 20 time in 343.60, in section 3.8, "Published Ratings." 21 "These values apply to all units of like nominal size 22 and type produced by the manufacturer." So I don't

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 think it's really nominal. 2 MS. MEYERS: Wikipedia or Webster, I should 3 say in my day. Now it's Wikipedia; right? 4 MR. SACHS: Well, Webster Unabridged talks 5 in terms of being trifling in comparison with the 6 actual value. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's the way I thought of 8 that. Nominally vague. 9 MR. STEPHENS: If you give me about 15 10 minutes, I can make Wikipedia say whatever you want it 11 to. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly. 13 MR. THARP: From the residential side, 14 nominal is usually half-ton sizes. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's the normal 16 reference for nominal. Right. 17 MR. WOSTAL: Could that be repeated? I 18 couldn't quite hear it. 19 MR. THARP: For residential product or less 20 than 65,000 typically, it's every half-ton is a 21 nominal, but I don't know that -- 22 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes, ClimateMasters

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 again. I think of nominal as being a three-ton unit 2 would be 36,000 Btu. And then there would be some 3 plus or minus on that because, you know, you will go 4 out, and you will see a 34,000 Btu unit called a 3- 5 ton, nominal 3-ton, unit, you know, or maybe a 38,000 6 Btu unit is called a nominal 3-ton. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, or a 110,000 -- 8 MR. WOSTAL: It's got to be something there 9

-- 10 MR. WHITWELL: -- could be a 10-ton. 11 MR. WOSTAL: -- that says it's plus or minus 12 this percentage or these Btu. 13 MR. THARP: It's not uncommon for 14 manufacturers to offer different products in the same 15 efficiency range that are the same nominal ton, but 16 they're really separate basic models. So a 17 manufacturer may have a down and dirty three-ton or a 18 fully featured three-ton and they're separate. HRI 19 would consider them separate basic models. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And so. 21 MR. THARP: So I guess my perception is that 22 DOE's position on some of the others is that we would

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 sort of open to the manufacturer, as I think was on 2 the boilers, where, you know, you could have a very 3 broad range of capacities that have the same basic 4 model if the manufacturer so chooses to rate that way. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So we would certainly 6 say you could put all of your ten tons into one basic 7 model. You could divide your ten tons into multiple 8 basic models. And that is up to you. I think the 9 question here is, can you get up into what I am going 10 to call an 11-ton range in terms of Btu and still call 11 it a 10-ton? And is it still nominally ten-ton, 12 because that is what you are saying? 13 MR. THARP: But, then, if you're getting 14 that far different, I don't think you are going to 15 have -- I wouldn't consider it a same or comparable 16 compressor. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that is going to be 18 your limiting factor. 19 MR. THARP: Compressor or coils or -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: And the condenser coil 21 surfaces now bigger. 22 MR. THARP: Correct.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If it's the same 3 efficiency rating, -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: It's kind of a -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: -- which it would have to be, 6 something is changing physically in the -- 7 MR. THARP: To get that far off. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So between the tonnages, 9 what do you think the break point -- is there a 10 natural break point where it wouldn't be? 11 MR. THARP: How much? I'm sorry. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Rusty, don't you think it's 13 around 6,000, like you said? 14 MR. THARP: Yes, for the residences, but if 15 you look at the commercial market, it's 7 and a half16 ton, 8 and a half-ton, ten-ton, 12 and a half, 15. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 18 MR. THARP: So that's, you know, 17 and a 19 half, 20. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's around 12,000, but -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Twenty, 25, 30, 35, 40. 22 MR. THARP: Once you get into commercial,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 it's at least a ton difference between the typical 2 product offering. 3 MR. FLY: Compressors tend to come in half4 ton, which is what -- 5 MR. THARP: Well, until you get in the big 6 commercial stuff, though. 7 MR. FLY: Then there are bigger jumps. 8 MR. THARP: Then there are significantly 9 bigger jumps. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It's only -- 11 MR. AMRANE: So if we put nominal capacity, 12 the definition, would it be understood what we are 13 talking about about half a ton or ton or -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I think I take it for granted. 15 MR. THARP: I think my personal opinion is 16 that is okay, again, because of the other parameters 17 listed -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, the coils, whatever. 19 MR. THARP: -- the compressor, the coils, 20 the air-moving system, that if you're getting that far 21 off in capacity, that you will have something else 22 different in the system that is noticeably different,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 significantly different. And then if the manufacturer 2 has a 10 and 11 and they are close enough, they design 3 their 11-ton system and they put a 10-ton compressor 4 and it is going to be more efficient if they want to 5 rate it the same, they would have to rate it the same 6 of the lower efficiency of the 11-ton; right? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So do you need "capacity" at 9 all or -- 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, do we even need a word 11 in front of "capacity"? 12 MR. THARP: In some of the other ones, we 13 say "same and comparable" once, so "same and 14 comparable" compressor, condensing coil, evaporator 15 coolant. 16 MS. BARHYDT: No. I think he was saying -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, in front of -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: -- do we need nominal? Do we 19 need -- 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we need the word 21 "nominal" or do we even need it? That's -- 22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Wouldn't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 you need "nominal" in because if it says "capacity," 2 that's a number. 3 MR. THARP: What is? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it's the number you have 5 provided; right? 6 MR. THARP: But if you have same or 7 comparable for all, list it once and then list all 8 four components: compressors, condenser coil, 9 evaporator coolant, capacity. That "same or 10 comparable" applies to the capacity also. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Fine. Okay. I'm doing the 13 math in my head with parentheses. 14 MR. THARP: Yes. Right. 15 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. I 16 apologize. I cannot hear everybody. You know, some 17 people, I struggle to hear them. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Wes, the question is 19 whether or not there needs to be a word before 20 "capacity," either nominal, or just leave it the way 21 it is. What do you think? 22 MR. WOSTAL: Well, I would like to have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 something there so that, you know, we're not nailed 2 down to a specific capacity. You know, for instance, 3 if you take a package unit versus a split system, you 4 can have the same compressor. You can have the same 5 coaxial heat exchangers. You can have -- everything 6 can be the same. The air coil could literally even be 7 the same coil. And because of the line set and 8 losses, you are going to have a difference in capacity 9 and efficiency. 10 So, you know, that is a situation where to 11 me, it fits as far as all of the components, but the 12 capacities will be different. And I would definitely 13 like to try to cover that. I don't know if the best 14 way to do that is like some of the other sections have 15 done or groups have done where they have got within 16 1,500 - 2,000 Btu or -- again, I don't know exactly 17 what the definition of nominal is. Maybe for this 18 situation, you know, there are definitions of same or 19 comparable. When it comes to coils and so on and 20 compressors, maybe there should be a definition for 21 nominal or is there a definition for same or 22 comparable capacity?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that was Wes. If 2 everybody can -- I know we have all been meeting a 3 whole lot and we know who each other is, but we need 4 to make sure that we are able to get all of the names 5 on the record. So if you can identify yourself before 6 you speak? I know we have gotten out of the habit of 7 doing that. 8 MR. EISNER: Tim Hammond is -- 9 MR. WOSTAL: I apologize. 10 MS. BARHYDT: That's okay. 11 MR. EISNER: Tim Hammond is online, wants to 12 talk. Tim, are you there? 13 MR. BROWN: This is Bob Brown, WaterFurnace. 14 MR. EISNER: Hi, Bob. 15 MR. BROWN: I just want to reaffirm what Wes 16 just said. And, you know, some of the other numbers 17 that were used, 1,500 Btu per hour for, say, up to a 4 18 or 5-ton PTAC unit, our particular product will be 19 regulated up to about 135,000 Btu per hour. So 20 roughly something in the 4,000 Btu per hour range or 21 even up to a half-ton would be appropriate, I think, 22 using the same logic there.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 MS. BARHYDT: So we can add something like 2 that. I think my concern -- and this may sound kind 3 of weird coming from me because I think I might be 4 advocating more your position, but it seems to me like 5 what I am hearing is that you have a certain 6 nomenclature that you typically use to refer to the 7 various tonnages of equipment and that as the units 8 get larger and larger, the breaks between those gets 9 considerably larger. And so I would be hesitant to 10 put something in here that is going to limit you to a 11 certain number of Btu for a range. And, instead, if 12 there is an industry convention of what a normal 13 break- off is for tonnages, I am actually okay with 14 using nominal where it is understood that those are 15 the normal industry breaking points for the various 16 tonnages. 17 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes. I'm in complete 18 agreement with that. 19 MR. THARP: Three, forty-three, sixty, the 20 AHRI standards have rounding values. Is that what we 21 are referring to, is the rounding? 22 (Chorus of "No.")

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 MR. THARP: We don't want -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: No. We're referring to 3 exactly what you mentioned before on the commercial 4 HVAC, where we go 6 and a half, 7 and a half, 8 and a 5 half, 10, 12 and a half, 15, 17, 20, 25, 30. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: And then they start getting 7 bigger. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Rusty? 9 MR. AMRANE: I think that we can put 10 "nominal" in front of "capacity" as long as it's 11 understood this is what we are talking about. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes. I'm okay with that. 13 Let me put "nominal" in quotes. 14 MR. THARP: And we're not going to -- 15 MR. BROWN: This is Bob with WaterFurnace. 16 I'm okay with that change as long as we're kind of 17 adopting the 343.60 definition of nominal and it's 18 possible that through our ISO operations, through our 19 AHRI, that we can possibly put that in as well. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And did we ever get Tim 21 Hammond on the line? 22 MALE SPEAKER: Never did.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 MS. BARHYDT: No? 2 MALE SPEAKER: It was Bob, under a different 3 name. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Okay. So we 5 actually need to vote on the definition. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections to this 7 definition? 8 Any abstentions? 9 Okay. 10 MR. HUNT: So while it's coming up, this is 11 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company. And 12 if I could just surge forward on this productive day, 13 basically these three items deal with a lot of things 14 we are seeing out in the hot drive and areas of the 15 country, not the hot and moist, like today is here. 16 And they are very different beasts, let me tell you. 17 So the fundamental thing here is that these 18 have parallels in items we have already discussed. 19 And the bottom line is we want to exempt them from 20 testing. 21 So the first one you have up is 22 indirect/direct evaporative cooling outdoor supply.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 This is very much like an economizer. It's an 2 attachment to the system or sometimes it could be 3 inside the box. Fundamentally, it's an option. It is 4 certainly nationwide a very, very small percentage. 5 We want to see these take off a bit more. We have 6 horrible PKW program problems during our heat storms 7 and especially with a nuclear power plant having gone 8 out forever down in Southern California. So we were 9 looking to use the water. And, again, this 10 indirect/direct evaporative cooling cools the air 11 coming into the economizer or is controlled by the 12 economizer. So think of it as an economizer that is 13 turbocharged. 14 Any questions? 15 Okay. And I guess there's not much more to 16 say than it should not be tested. It should not. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone in here make any 18 of these? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Not yet. 20 MR. HUNT: Well, actually, you guys do. 21 It's a lesser cooling challenge unit. Trane has a 22 product.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I know, but I wouldn't 2 say we have a commercially made just yet. 3 MR. HUNT: But we're very pleased that they 4 have responded and we have it going into the field. 5 Also, we will be testing this in our lab coming up. I 6 won't give you a lot more details, but this kind of 7 thing we are discussing today could take a form that 8 is going to last five or ten years. So during that 9 time, we hope that this will become more used in the 10 field, probably something like AAON, you guys, put 11 together. 12 MR. FLY: We don't today or have not today 13 done it, but a lot of the custom manufacturers do do 14 and I have in the past at a former company. We put 15 particularly direct evap cooling into equipment. 16 Minor 17

-- 18 MR. HUNT: Yes. 19 MR. FLY: -- does a lot of direct evap 20 cooling. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 MR. HUNT: And now indirect is coming on

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 strong where you don't put moisture in the air. 2 MR. FLY: Right. It's -- 3 MR. HUNT: And recent innovations will make 4 that even better. So this is a look forward in 5 allowing us to be proactive, rather than find out 6 later, "Oh, my goodness." 7 8 MR. FLY: There are a number of indirect 9 evap cooler component people out there in the world. 10 And they are being retrofitted in the field. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So can you talk about if you 12 were to test this in the test, what would happen? I 13 mean, what is the impact here? 14 MR. HUNT: Same as economizer resistance to 15 air flow. It is outdoor air. So 343.60 doesn't even 16 have outdoor air. So it could be shipped from the 17 factory, but it's really not covered by those 18 standards and, therefore, can't be tested. 19 MR. AMRANE: But it has a benefit in terms 20 of cooling the air. 21 MR. FLY: Right. And it needs dry air to 22 work.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 MR. HUNT: Not today here. 2 MR. FLY: Well, not now. This would not be 3 a good application. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: And the test standard is not 5 dry air. 6 MR. FLY: And the test standard is not dry 7 air. So it's rather uninteresting at 8760. 8 MR. HUNT: Correct. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Is this something that you 10 would have a comparable model without this feature? 11 MR. HUNT: Oh, absolutely. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MR. HUNT: Absolutely. That's true of all 14 of these. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Harvey, any thoughts? 17 MR. SACHS: I'm on board. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 19 MR. SACHS: Yes. This is Harvey. I'm on 20 board. 21 MR. HUNT: So this next one is evaporative 22 free cooling of condenser intake air. Essentially,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 you have an air source unit. You are cooling with air 2 on the condenser side. But you could either have a 3 boost with water into media. It has been done poorly 4 in the past, but we're setting standards to get that 5 done correctly now or you could have a whole other -- 6 think of it as a media coming before the fins and the 7 coil that could be charged with water or not depending 8 upon the time of day or even the application. And 9 that would be a resistance to air flow through the 10 condenser and, therefore, could have more condenser 11 fan energy use and could require a different condenser 12 fan. But, again, it would be always offered without. 13 And so we have covered the condenser fan issues in 14 other product areas. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And, Marshall, 16 I'm having trouble walking through it in my mind, but 17 my sense is the reason that I would want to do this is 18 that the boost from cooling that condenser is worth a 19 whole lot more than the parasitic from that water 20 skirt. 21 MR. HUNT: Correct. 22 MR. SACHS: Now, so it's a good idea, but

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 what I haven't worked out is what happens if I am 2 testing at 3 8760? 4 MR. FLY: Well, in this case, 75. 5 MR. SACHS: 95/75. Pardon me. 6 MR. FLY: Right. 7 MR. SACHS: I'll get it down yet. What 8 happens if I'm testing at 95/75? Do I -- 9 MR. HUNT: If you had an evaporative 10 effectiveness of 60 percent, 70 percent, then you do 11 the wet vault to dry vault calculation. Can I do that 12 in my head? Twenty times 46 is -- well, so my air 13 coming into the condenser would not be 95. It would 14 be 83 or something. 15 MR. SACHS: So, even under test conditions, 16 I am getting more of a boost from this than the 17 penalty. 18 MR. HUNT: Yes. Of course, you can always 19 make mistakes and not do it correctly, but yes. But 20 you would have water, which none of the test 21 facilities have. You would have a lot more moisture 22 being dumped in the air, which a lot of test

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 facilities -- 2 MR. KLEISS: Yes. The extra humidity that 3 is put in the outdoor room, you do have to dehumidify 4 that and go back to the test condition, which -- 5 MR. SACHS: I am convinced, then. Thank 6 you. That is what I needed to hear. 7 MR. KLEISS: Yes. I mean, it's doable, but 8 the way the rooms are built, the outdoor -- to remove 9 that much humidity or adding into the air, to 10 recondition it would be an issue. 11 MR. FLY: By the way, we're going to have 12 the same discussion -- this is Mark Fly with AAON -- 13 when we get to vacuum. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 15 MR. HUNT: Yes. In fact, we have set up 16 recently our lab to handle this specific kind of 17 thing. And it's an amazing problem to deal with in the 18 test room. I wouldn't expect anybody to be able to do 19 it. So basically this is somewhat looking ahead, but 20 it is starting to happen much more in our area. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So if this is something that, 22 admittedly, sounds like it would be very difficult to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 test, but it sounds like at test conditions, it would 2 actually show a better performance, if somebody wanted 3 to claim that performance game and they were able to 4 set up their lab and they were able to test it, I 5 mean, it seems to me like you would want to claim that 6 benefit. 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. The question on 8 the table is whether you are sampling, not whether 9 they could rate it, but whether you would sample it. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So here's my issue. If you 11 rate it as something different and say it's a 12 different basic model and you claim that, I don't want 13 to say, "Well, we're not going to test it" because 14 whole premise behind this is that you're trying to 15 group things into a basic model and we'll say we won't 16 test it. So if you're saying it's a different basic 17 model, we'll test it, but if you say it's the same 18 basic model, then maybe we won't. 19 MR. HUNT: Right. 20 MS. BARHYDT: But I just want to make sure 21 that -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. No. I would agree. I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 would agree, Laura. 2 MS. BARHYDT: -- that would be -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 4 would agree. If we were to put them and likely as it 5 starts to roll out, I would want to still group them 6 and not make a unique model. If it became an option 7 that was significant, I would want to take the effect, 8 you know, the positive effect probably, and have a 9 different basic model. But if I am grouping it 10 together now, I'm probably taking the lowest common 11 denominator. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: And so I am probably not 14 taking into effect what the positive effects in 15 efficiency are and taking that bird. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So if I group them, I just 18 don't want that tested. 19 MR. HUNT: So you could say not required but 20 authorized. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Intrinsically, I'm not sure if 22 at that particular point in the test point -- yes, you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 will get a benefit for the air coming to the condenser 2 coil is dropped, but you also have pressure drop. You 3 have air flow pressure drop across that condenser. So 4 I just don't know to say what the two offsetting 5 things would do. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. A question 7 for the manufacturers and then a follow-up question 8 for the Department. How large are these systems? Are 9 these the mega systems that are -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: No. They're more in the light 11 commercial range, -- 12 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 13 MR. HUNT: -- so more in the 5 to 20 tonnish 14 range. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 16 MR. HUNT: Our big box customers, they're 17 really looking for ways to make the air cooler to use, 18 which a bunch of them will be on the roof. They are 19 looking for ways to make them more efficient. And the 20 more we have manufacturers have the option, again, 21 this is one of the aspects way out there. It's not 22 even a tenth or a hundredth of a percent, but that if

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 they could happen, then it is an asterisk and they are 2 looking forward, the manufacturers, to be able to have 3 that for their consumption. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. My question to the 5 Department is, if a manufacturer invests heavily in 6 their facilities such that they have better facilities 7 to do this than what the industry-available third 8 party labs do, do you come to the manufacturer to do 9 your audit or do you do your audit at the third party 10 lab? 11 MS. BARHYDT: So we have always said that if 12 there's not a third party lab available to do the 13 test, we will test the manufacturer's labs. And that 14 is already in our regulations. 15 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I 16 was just sitting here thinking about it. Especially 17 since they're smaller type units, I think you could 18 perform a test with it because what we are doing in 19 two of our new facilities that we are building is for 20 small unitary, you have to have a dry coil test, which 21 you have to have dehumidification equipment and extra 22 dehumidification equipment to dry the indoor room.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 And what we're doing is we're connecting it so you can 2 dehumidify the outdoor room with the same equipment or 3 the indoor room. So if we are adding extra humidity 4 in the outdoor room, we can use our supplemental 5 dehumidification equipment to remove that as well once 6 it runs through the unit. So we could bring back the 7 humidity back to the normal range. But there needs to 8 be like set points, you know, test conditions set for 9 that type of a test. 10 MR. HUNT: So for now, it is an option that 11 we exclude. 12 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Isn't 13 this covered by whether there is or is not a basic 14 model without this? Because if we want to claim it 15 and we're going to create a new basic model, then 16 there is not another basic model available, I mean, a 17 basic model without this that is the same model. And 18 if we claim it as a separate basic model, then there 19 is. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I just wanted to make 21 sure that that was clear. 22 MR. FLY: I think in my mind, that covers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 everything there. Now, these are not new things. 2 They have been around for years as add-ons in the 3 outside. 4 MR. HUNT: Done very poorly. 5 MR. FLY: And some of them brought in the 6 cooldown in six months. 7 MR. HUNT: Yes, terrible. No. It's the wet 8 pad that cools the air temperature to evaporation, but 9 it has to be drawing in the coil. And the bad 10 examples are all the moistures along. 11 MR. FLY: Putting the sprinkler on your 12 condensing unit. 13 MR. HUNT: Yes. You got out and hose down 14 your condensing unit. 15 MR. SACHS: You don't do that every day at 16 your house? 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's got a coated coil. 18 MR. SACHS: Real coated coil. 19 MR. HUNT: Go ahead and push to the last one 20 since there starts to be somewhat of a theme here. 21 And this one, we're seeing pressure towards this. And 22 I was looking for some of the rest of the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 manufacturers, especially those that tend to do more 2 customized manufacturing. But as we see more and more 3 of the effort to try to make the RTUs work better, one 4 scenario is to change a certain set of, let's say, a 5 field of 20 units, 20 20-ton units, and pick a certain 6 set of those to be dedicated outdoor air systems. And 7 it's not easy, but -- and I'm looking to Mark to see. 8 We may not keep this one, but it is something that 9 people are trying to do. And it could be an option, I 10 guess, but we don't want to test it. 11 MR. FLY: I guess the question is, is it a 12 different product line because there is lots of stuff 13 going on. And ASHRAE and I think AHRI are working on 14 a test standard. And the issue is it's about bringing 15 in outside air and outside air isn't part of the test 16 standard today. So to have a dedicated outdoor air 17 unit that you are going to rate, you need to have 18 different metric levels. 19 MR. HUNT: And we could achieve that with 20 options on an existing RTU or -- 21 MR. FLY: Well, a lot of us build rooftop 22 units that can handle 100 percent outside air or some

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 of us do. 2 MR. HUNT: Yes, but it's an option out there 3 or -- 4 MR. FLY: Some of our units can handle -- I 5 don't really treat it as an option, though. 6 MR. HUNT: Okay. 7 MR. FLY: It depends on the outside air I 8 have to treat -- 9 MR. HUNT: Okay. Strike that, please. 10 MR. FLY: -- how much I have to do to it. 11 MR. HUNT: So I would like to remove that 12 suggestion. I don't want to have it defeated. Just 13 take it away. Yes. Thank you very much. I just 14 tried to look at it here. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we have two issues: 16 indirect and indirect in evaporative 17 precooling. Are there any objections to the position 18 taken, not testing it? 19 Any abstentions? 20 Okay. 21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 22 just want to ask the Department, are you covering

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 dedicated outdoor air units? Is that in your scope 2 today? Do you know? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So John? 4 MR. FLY: John? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: When I've asked Ashley this -- 6 MR. FLY: I'm not asking you to. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: So this is Jill from Trane. 8 I've asked Ashley this. She said that I need to file 9 an exemption from the test procedure. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: A waiver? 11 MS. BARHYDT: A waiver? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: A waiver, yes. She is 13 thinking, but she wanted to talk more about it. And I 14 know it was one of these. And we started getting off 15 into something else. We never got back to that. 16 MR. FLY: I have no doubt in my mind five 17 years from now we will have a product class in ASHRAE 18 for it anyway. 19 MS. DEGITZ: Are there any tests for 20 dedicated 21

-- 22 MALE SPEAKER: There is no test data.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 MR. AMRANE: Not yet, but there will be. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it would be a waiver 3 right now for sure. Right. We don't have a way to 4 test. 5 MR. HUNT: This is Marshal Hunt, PGE. Later 6 this year, we will have an emerging technology on the 7 test we did on a 5,000 CFM indirect evaporatively 8 cooled dedicated outdoor air system, variable 9 everything. So that should educate and help us know 10 more, but, again, your lab has to be very, very 11 differently put together. We could only go up to 12 5,000 in our lab, lots of work. 13 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes, ClimateMasters. 14 Before we jump into the next group, I would like to 15 bring up something that I know nobody wants to hear, 16 but I would ask that you listen to me for five 17 minutes. And that is a coated coil. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: You had to hear the groan, 19 Wes. You know that. 20 MR. WOSTAL: Actually, I foolishly thought 21 that we were going to go over that in the water source 22 section, but we only went over the things that were

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 different. So here it goes to try to get this over 2 with. 3 A couple of arguments I would like to make. 4 First, you know, in regards to air source and VRF, 5 some of the arguments that the Department made in 6 favor or the reason that they went ahead and gave the 7 exemption to air source was that they're a custom 8 group. They do a lot of one-offs. And then when VRF 9 was making their case, the Department said that air 10 source had been doing this for many, many years 11 without being tested. And they really, you know, 12 didn't want to jump in to testing it immediately. So 13 they gave them the exemption. 14 Well, water source is the same situation. I 15 have been in this industry for 20 years. And we were 16 doing it when I came into it, and I'm sure we were 17 doing it for 20 years prior to me coming into it. So 18 it's the same situation as air source. We have been 19 doing this for a long time. We also do the customs. 20 We do the one-offs. So I don't really see us as being 21 any different there. 22 In addition, we compete for the same jobs.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 It's not a situation where water source is competing 2 against water source and air source against air source 3 and VRF against VRF. When these jobs come up, I'm 4 competing against VRF. I'm competing against air 5 source. So, you know, it should be a level playing 6 field. You know, for me to go in and be in the 7 situation where my unit with this particular option 8 where the coated coil gets tested and my competitor 9 does not, you know that starts getting into situations 10 where, you know, I mean, just putting it as simply as 11 possible, it's unfair. It's almost getting into, you 12 know, unfair trade policy. So there's that situation. 13 In addition, our products, water source 14 products, are literally -- you know, VRF made the 15 argument that they are the same as air source. We are 16 basically the same as well. As a matter of fact, we 17 use air source air handlers in our product that we -- 18 in most cases, most water source companies purchase 19 from the air source guide. And in a lot of cases, we 20 make the products for the air source companies, their 21 water source products. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So, Wes, this is --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 MR. WOSTAL: So we are basically -- I mean, 2 we would argue that we are the same as them. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Wes, this is Laura. 4 MR. WOSTAL: In other case -- 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Wes, let's break in here for 6 - - Wes, Wes, Wes, let's break in for a second. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So I am hoping that nobody is 8 going to complain about this, but it was the 9 Department's understanding when we were voting 10 yesterday that for all of the myriad of things that I 11 realize, I think, at the top of the slide, it probably 12 said, "air source." But our understanding was that 13 those things that we voted on would cover -- and this 14 is going to be a long list -- small commercial 15 packaged air conditioning and heating equipment, air 16 cooled at all Btu; large commercial packaged air 17 conditioning and heating equipment, air cooled; very 18 large commercial packaged air conditioning and heating 19 equipment, air cooled; small commercial packaged air 20 conditioning and heating equipment, water cooled, 21 evaporatively cooled; and water source large 22 commercial packaged air conditioning and heating

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 equipment, water cooled, evaporatively cooled; and 2 water source very large commercial packaged air 3 conditioning and heating equipment, water cooled, 4 evaporatively cooled; and water source. And I don't 5 think this would say anything different than what I 6 just said. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that you listed 8 VRF there. 9 MS. BARHYDT: No. VRF was voted separately, 10 but we did run the coil for VRF separately. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: When you did the one vote, you 12 were thinking it was all of that? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 15 MR. THARP: So he's covered, basically. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So he is already covered. 17 MR. JOHNSON: So that would be easier to 18 basically say the only things that coated coils come 19 into play on are single packaged vertical and heat 20 taps? 21 MS. BARHYDT: And CRAC. 22 MR. JOHNSON: And CRAC.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to leave again. 2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. This is Wes again. So I 3 am to understand that coated coils will not be tested 4 on everybody but PTAC. And I think there are a couple 5 of others that you had mentioned. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. 8 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 9 MR. EISNER: All right. Are you done, Wes? 10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. 11 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. 12 MR. AMRANE: Again I would like to make the 13 point that I don't think it's fair for the same reason 14 that just Wes stated that we're treating SPVU 15 differently than, for example, the other products. 16 They compete the same way. They should be treated the 17 same. So, for the record, that -- 18 MR. WOSTAL: Karim, this is Wes. I have one 19 more point to make, and I will stop. My last point 20 that I was going to make is the Department when you 21 gave air source the exemption, you basically gave 90 22 to 95 percent of the product the exemption. And, you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 know, now that you're leaving SPVU in and PTAC in, 2 you're talking about a fraction of a percent of the 3 HVAC industry that you are going to test. So if I put 4 my entire industry hat on and I speak from the 5 standpoint that Karim is, I mean, you basically 6 exempted literally everybody. And it does seem unfair 7 to leave just this very, very small percentage of the 8 market that you are going to test. So I'll shut up. 9 MR. JOHNSON: And I'll second. 10 MR. WOSTAL: You'll second to shut up? 11 MS. BARHYDT: And we voted. 12 MR. WOSTAL: You'll second to shut up or 13 second my point? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Your point. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. We have someone else on 16 line, another Wes. Wes Roan wants to talk. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that was Wes. 18 MALE SPEAKER: A different Wes. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, a different Wes. Sorry. 20 MR. ROAN: This is a different Wes, although 21 I agree totally with Wes' comment and Karim's. And 22 that is exactly the point that I was going to make,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 that we're down to a fraction of the market. The 2 SPVU/PTAC are exactly the same kind of applications. 3 And it is not -- there is no rationalization to 4 separate those two products and give a pass to 5 everybody else. 6 MR. SACHS: Okay. Let's remove the pass. 7 MR. EISNER: That's what DOE has said. He's 8 saying let's remove the pass. 9 MS. BARHYDT: We'll test everything. If 10 everybody believes that everything should be treated 11 the same, then we will test everything. But we 12 already voted. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Evaporatively cooled. We did 15 not have a basic model definition that everybody had 16 worked out. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: We need Mark from AAON. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. EISNER: Let's take a break. 20 MS. BARHYDT: One short break? 21 MR. EISNER: Yes. Let's take a ten-minute 22 break, then, until 9:35.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 2 MS. BARHYDT: So I was asked to make an 3 announcement that we are not meeting August 21st and 4 22nd. 5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Could you repeat that? 6 MS. BARHYDT: We are not meeting August 21st 7 and 22nd. 8 MR. THARP: But the plans are still for 31st 9 and 1st and 7th and 8th. 10 MS. BARHYDT: That sounds right. 11 MR. EISNER: We have a meeting later in the 12 month, too. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And then there is 14 another one for that -- 15 MR. THARP: And then the 26th and the 27th. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. STEPHENS: We are not meeting August 18 21st and 22nd? 19 MR. EISNER: We never were. I don't think 20 it was ever on the calendar. I think that was a 21 mistake. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So that was a mistake in the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 first place. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So basic model for 4 evaporatively cooled. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Mark? 6 MR. FLY: Evaporatively cooled condenser. 7 Is this the same as air cooled? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I think we copied and pasted 9 from the water source slide. 10 MR. FLY: It is exactly. You know, I think 11 we are the two that make the product -- this is Mark 12 Fly with AAON -- us and Trane, that are in the room. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Besides some -- 14 MR. FLY: And there are a bunch of other 15 people, some other people who aren't here. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- people that are on the 17 team. 18 MR. FLY: But for us and for everyone that I 19 am aware of, we make exactly the same model, air 20 cooled or evaporative cooled, and we just change the 21 condenser part. So it is really exactly the same as 22 the packaged rooftop air cooled equipment in all its

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 features and options other than the condenser. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So should we just add 3 evaporatively cooled to the slide that says -- 4 MR. FLY: Right. 5 MS. BARHYDT: -- "air cooled" and that's -- 6 MR. FLY: And the only problem is we 7 really don't have a test procedure. That is the other 8 problem 9

-- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Understood. 11 MR. FLY: -- or a test facility for it 12 either. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 14 MR. FLY: I mean, the other issue with 15 evaporative cooled, if you actually got down to the 16 economics of it, it's kind of a 100-ton or above 17 product. So there are very few made below 63 tons 18 because of the cost of making the condenser. 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Mark, are you 20 at least using the condensate for wetting the 21 condenser? 22 MR. FLY: I am on one in my plant, yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 MR. SACHS: I just want to know about that 2 water efficiency. 3 MR. FLY: Yes. It's a darned good idea. 4 I'll work on it. 5 MR. SACHS: This question brought to you by 6 Tom Lawrence of the University of Georgia. 7 MR. FLY: Okay. I mean, part of the issues 8 are that the temperature of the makeup water has a 9 significant effect on the efficiency. That's one of 10 the test procedure issues that are addressed. And no. 11 We don't have a -- we never included it through 43.60. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And partly why, Karim, it has 13 never been addressed is we all stop at the engineering 14 committee and go, "Nobody can test it. Intertek can't 15 test them." 16 MR. FLY: We don't have a facility. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So we always stop and go, 18 "Well, why are we going to write something that 19 somebody can't test?" 20 MR. SACHS: Well, PGE is going to fix that. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: His is only up to 5,000. These 22 are principally used --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 MR. SACHS: Today. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. HUNT: Oh, we'll never have a bigger 4 lab. It's only ten tons. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane. 6 I agree with what Mark has said. We principally sell 7 these in our larger sizes that are not covered by 8 federal trust. But we do offer it there. We offer it 9 for sale. 10 MR. FLY: At least today. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: When they get the price, they 12 go, "Never mind." But, you know -- 13 MR. AMRANE: So I'm looking at the standard 14 right now. And there is condition for evaporatively 15 cooled profit in 343.60. 16 MR. FLY: We've never certified it. 17 MR. AMRANE: Maybe it's not certified. 18 MR. FLY: Right. 19 MR. AMRANE: That's a different issue. It's 20 covered. That's why -- 21 MR. FLY: Well, I -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: All the way up through 760? I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 don't think so. 2 MR. AMRANE: I mean, the test procedure 3 is 4 343.60. 5 MR. FLY: There is a condition listed. 6 MR. AMRANE: There is. There is. And 7 that's why there is -- 8 MR. FLY: And nobody paid a whole lot of 9 attention to the -- 10 MR. AMRANE: Right. It's not certified by 11 AHRI. That's true, I mean, because there is no lab 12 that can do the test -- 13 MR. FLY: Of course, we are working on 14 343.60 right now. So maybe there are certain things 15 in there that we need to fix. Now is the time to do 16 it. But the problem is we don't have a lot of test 17 experience because nobody has got anything in place of 18 testing. 19 MR. AMRANE: Right. 20 MR. FLY: Field tests. 21 MS. BARHYDT: That was the air cooled 22 definition.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Does that work? Well, 3 comparable performing evap, but we don't have to put 4 "evap"; right? 5 MR. FLY: No. It's a coil of some kind. 6 And I can't think of anything else in there that would 7 define a basic model. I mean, if you have got a water 8 problem, that doesn't really -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: And that doesn't always have 10 to be applied by us. It doesn't always have to be. 11 MR. FLY: Oh, really? I always apply the 12 water problem. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. FLY: But the truth of the matter is a 15 water problem doesn't -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it doesn't. 17 MR. FLY: I'm happy with that definition. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Ready to vote? 19 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to add 20 anything? 21 Anybody object to this definition? Anybody 22 abstain?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 You're okay, Jill? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I'm fine. I was just 3 asking if -- I doubt any of the custom manufacturers - 4

- 5 MR. FLY: Mammoth would probably be the -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Mammoth would be the -- 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. This one is support. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Are there any other 9 issues for basic models that we need to go over? 10 Because we have gone through every slide, every note, 11 every handout that we have had over the last month. 12 Anything else? 13 Okay. Certification. Now, we talked about 14 some of this previously. Does anyone need to go back 15 over the basic information about certification or -- 16 Okay. For commercial warm air for furnaces, 17 DOE regulations currently require thermal efficiency 18 and -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry. I do have a question, 20 I think. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes? 22 MR. WHITWELL: On the certification general

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 slide, so based on the discussion that we have had 2 over yesterday, this morning, and prior discussions, 3 and a number of options that are now exempt from 4 testing, we will be submitting basic model number and 5 then with asterisks and some brackets where 6 applicable, like we do today with AHRI? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Probably, although I will say 8 that other people are more familiar with what you 9 submit to AHRI than I am, but -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So let me clarify, 11 then. So if in our model number there is a character 12 that represents a group of options that are exempt 13 from testing, either included in tests or exempt from 14 tests that do not affect the energy efficiency, we can 15 put an asterisk there. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So first, though, I 17 think what you are describing is what we would call 18 the individual model number. And so I will give 19 several different examples -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So that was my 21 question. I wanted to differentiate -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: -- what I have seen from

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 different products. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- between basic model number 3 and individual number as far as what we have to 4 submit. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So I am going to use some 6 really simple cases. We have people who make a 7 refrigerator. And it's ABC123. And then it's got 12 8 different variations as to whether it's right door, 9 left door, black, stainless steel, white, all 10 different kinds of options, how many drawers it has. 11 They usually submit for basic model ABC123. 12 For individual model number, they say 13 ABC123********. We have other people, particularly 14 people who private label. They may make ABC123 with 15 all of those asterisks, and they may say, "This is 16 basic model ABC123." But for brand X, it's XBC123 17 with all these asterisks. For model Y, it's YBC123 18 with all of these asterisks. But still in their 19 certification report, they're identified as this is 20 ABC123. So that all of these are really the same 21 basic model, but they provide the brand information 22 separately. And that has to do with the way it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 displays on DOE's site, where they don't want to show 2 that brand X is actually exactly the same product as 3 brand Y. And so they break them out that way. But 4 that is up to the manufacturer. And the private 5 labeler is how that is actually provided. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So in our case, 7 probably we have XYZ***123**. 8 MS. BARHYDT: We see a lot of those, too. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So in that case, I 10 guess the question I have is that we may have a 11 situation where the basic model number and the 12 individual model number is the same. 13 MS. BARHYDT: And that's fine. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's entirely up to you. 17 Basic model number is the identifier for you to 18 identify all of these different things are in the same 19 basic model number. And we list them separately so 20 that manufacturers have the option of breaking things 21 out or grouping them together. It's up to you, but 22 having a single basic model number that's tied to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 different individual model numbers gives you the 2 flexibility to report it in different ways. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Second question is 4 that in order to properly characterize basic model 5 groups and differentiate between things that have 6 different energy efficiency impact. We may need to 7 use a -- we have generally what our customers would 8 see as an 18- digit model number. And that is in our 9 system in order to -- it goes throughout our IT 10 system. But also for manufacturing purposes, we have 11 a longer model number. And so we may submit. In order 12 to differentiate, we may submit with that longer model 13 number that none of our customers would ever 14 recognize. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Is that okay? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a relationship 20 between the one your customers would recognize and the 21 longer manufacturing one or are they entirely 22 different or --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 MR. WHITWELL: There's a relationship. What 2 happens is we have ten digits on the front that are 3 the same. And then there's eight digits that 4 represent the remaining however many digits. And that 5 is something that if you look at that, you cannot 6 figure it out without having a decoder. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We have a configurator, 8 too. I agree. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So if you were to look at 10 that 18-digit model number, you can't tell whether or 11 not it has an economizer, for example. 12 MR. THARP: Unless you have a really good 13 memory. 14 MR. WHITWELL: No. You can't tell. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: No. And I agree. This is 16 Jill from Trane. I agree with Bob. We have the same 17 thing. It's a configuration system such that the first 18 18, like you described, 15 in our case, that doesn't 19 matter. And then the customer tells us, you know, 20 what are the other options they want. And each single 21 time a unique other code for those remaining digits 22 gets sequenced to that. And when it eventually gets

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 filled, the serial number gets linked to it and 2 everything else. So it's akin to actually the systems 3 that automotives use and aerospace. 4 MR. WHITWELL: With the VIN numbers 5 probably; right? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: With VIN numbers. It is very 7 akin to that. 8 MS. BARHYDT: And what you're asking is 9 whether you could use that for both the basic model 10 and the individual model? 11 MR. WHITWELL: Well, my first question was, 12 see, I think our system is a little different than 13 yours because with our 35-digit model number, you can 14 tell what it, but customers -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but where does that 35- 16 digit ever show up for the customer? 17 MR. WHITWELL: They never see it. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. They never see it. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes because we are going to 21 want some number to be something that a customer would 22 recognize.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 MR. WHITWELL: Then we cannot differentiate. 2 We can't tell you whether or not it has an economizer 3 on this product, for example. I mean, the customer 4 won't be able to tell that just by looking at that 18- 5 digit model number -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So if when the customer -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: -- or what the motor option 8 is. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So when the customer orders 10 something with the 18-digit number -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: They don't actually order a 12 model number. They go into our configurator. And 13 they say, "These are the things I want." 14 MS. BARHYDT: "I want these things." Right. 15 MR. WHITWELL: And then it kicks out a model 16 number. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, then what is the 18- 18 digit number used for? 19 MR. WHITWELL: It's used for -- it is what 20 goes on the nameplate. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 MR. WHITWELL: It is what goes into our

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 system as far as what we build, warranty. 2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I've 3 got the same or a similar type system. I have 4 actually one product -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: His is probably -- 6 MR. FLY: I've got 99 -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: -- much more complex than 8 ours. 9 MR. FLY: I've got 99 characters -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 11 MR. FLY: -- with one of my systems. And 12 yes, I actually show my customer that. It is printed 13 out on our configurator as the model string, but 14 nobody is going to type it back in, by the way. 15 So, you know, what I was thinking about is, 16 you know, as long as I always map -- let's say I have 17 a model number 123F99 and then I've got ABC, which is 18 my listed model to DOE, as long as I always map each 19 one of my individual models on my rating sheet back to 20 the cognizant DOE-listed number, is that sufficient? 21 I mean, you can take that listed number. 22 The problem is it's hard to go backwards. And I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 it is the same problem we all have. You can't take 2 the shorter number that is the listed model, which 3 leaves out all of the extraneous information that may 4 not affect energy at all, and go back to something 5 that has more. You can't go from less to more. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 7 MR. FLY: You can go from more to less. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So is the 18-digit number the 10 number that you provide to AHRI right now? 11 MR. WHITWELL: It's that with asterisks, 12 yes. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MS. BARHYDT: But it's 18 characters long, - 15

- 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MS. BARHYDT: -- and it has asterisks? 18 MR. FLY: And there's a limit in the AHRI 19 system. I don't remember what it is. 20 MS. BARHYDT: There is a limit there. 21 MR. AMRANE: It's not 99. 22 MR. FLY: It's not 99. And I've got the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 important stuff crammed up in the front, but there are 2 lots of asterisks in mine, too. 3 MS. BARHYDT: And so is that 18-character 4 string enough to capture the variations? And I think 5 you were saying -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: We can capture it, but you 7 cannot tell what it -- let me see. Let me think about 8 this a minute. I think based on the discussions we 9 have had about what is included and what is not 10 excluded, I think the 18-digit model number will 11 capture. I can use that, and I can do the basic model 12 grouping that will cover what's -- so DOE can pick a 13 unit that's to be tested for that product. But then I 14 have another product that has two alpha characters at 15 the end. And one of the things it can describe is 16 whether or not it has a high efficiency outdoor fan. 17 So in that case, I'm going to say for those last two 18 characters, the first one can be P through V, and the 19 second one is some other character, which means it is 20 going to be a long list of things. So that is a 21 little different case. So I have some different cases 22 depending on which product family I am talking about.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON again. 2 Again, since we never had economizers in here -- and 3 we still don't, but that information, you could order 4 something. That is in the asterisk field. So you 5 can't order one. Our customer can't order one with 6 asterisks in it. You know, if we knew it was -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 8 MR. FLY: If we knew it was going to be -- 9 you would rather us not, I understand. Then we could 10 configure it by the rules that we have gone through 11 here. 12 MR. WHITWELL: And DOE could do that, too. 13 I mean, when you order it, you can say, "These are the 14 things I want on it" -- 15 MR. FLY: "Things I want." 16 MR. WHITWELL: -- and "These are the things 17 I don't want." 18 MR. FLY: "And these are the things I don't 19 want." 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Right. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. FLY: But most of all this equipment is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 configured and built to order. And it's so complex 2 that we use computer software with our representative 3 agents or whoever, sometimes even our customers, that 4 can go in there and say, "I pick these things on the 5 Chinese menu. And it bills you the model numbers. It 6 tells you what the rating is and usually tells you 7 what AHRI efficiency level that you have because it 8 knows from what it built which one to map into. 9 MR. THARP: We just need to add a character 10 to our model numbers where D is DOE. 11 MR. SACHS: Laura? 12 MR. FLY: I don't think we're in like -- 13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think we're 14 trying to feed the animal from the wrong end. And 15 what I am thinking now that I have your attention with 16 my two-by-four is that we ought to start with a 17 functional description of exactly what DOE needs. You 18 need to know what is a basic model and all of the 19 potential things that would be part of that basic 20 model. It seems to me that if you write a functional 21 specification, the manufacturers can accept the 22 obligation to satisfy that specification.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't disagree with you, 2 Harvey, but -- and I realize that the conversation 3 we're having is fairly tedious, but part of our goal 4 is to try to come up with a structure that will have 5 the least amount of impact on their current 6 structures. And yes, while we could say, yes, the 7 manufacturers can come up with something that will 8 work for us, if we can make what they already do work 9 for us, then -- 10 MR. SACHS: That is why I am suggesting 11 this, that what I am hearing now is a cacophony of 12 permutations among companies. And it's not organized 13 around your quest. And I really think, but I could be 14 wrong, that devoting a little bit of time to that 15 functional specification definition as an IT question 16 would help us move the conversation along in terms of 17 seeing where they are with respect to that. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So following up on what 19 Harvey said, so the question is, is DOE just 20 interested in understanding what models they need to 21 pick to test or are they interested in understanding 22 in what gets submitted, you know, what all the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 different characters mean in detail, and be able to 2 pick out specific things? 3 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. So what we want to be 4 able to do is -- and based on what you have said so 5 far, I am thinking the 18-character is what we are 6 looking for, not the 35-character. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. Thank you. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is that a portable? Get 9 that thing out of here. I don't care how cold it is. 10 MR. WHITWELL: It's a heater. It's a 11 heater. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: My God. 13 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly with AAON. 14 In the spirit of role reversal that Laura started 15 earlier -- and I am going to speak for you, and you 16 tell me if I am wrong. And I'll be happy if you are. 17 But I think you also feel like you want to be able to 18 look at any model in commerce, anything anyone would 19 report to you, and trace it back to a listed model to 20 ensure that the model was listed. 21 MS. BARHYDT: That is correct. But so what 22 Bob was saying was that --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 MR. FLY: So we need to provide some way to 2 get from -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: -- 18 characters is what he 4 puts on his nameplate. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 6 MR. FLY: Whatever we put on our nameplate 7 to get back to you and say, "I know what model that 8 is." And that's what I was saying. My 18 characters 9 wouldn't even have to be the same 18 characters I use 10 in manufacturing or give to my customer as long as I 11 gave them both -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 13 MR. FLY: -- and both were on the nameplate 14 and there was always something that says, "This model 15 refers to this." 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Both on the nameplate. 17 MR. AMRANE: Let me suggest that, instead of 18 spending too much time here talking about this, that 19 maybe this is something we need to discuss outside of 20 this working group when you start building up your 21 database, that we can see what we are doing today with 22 AHRI directory and see whether this would satisfy your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 needs or whether we could change the way things are 2 being reported. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So to the extent that it 4 doesn't capture it or we need to change the way, this 5 is the time to do that, though, through the 6 regulation, not later. And I understand the 7 technological part we can work out, but we have to 8 make sure that we have identified the right pieces of 9 information to collect. 10 MR. AMRANE: So let me suggest that maybe we 11 respond this discussion to maybe even later meetings 12 so that we can figure out something among ourselves 13 that we will work out. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 15 would appreciate the time to think more about this -- 16 MR. AMRANE: Right. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 18 MR. STEPHENS: -- and be able to have a more 19 productive conversation. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. WHITWELL: And now that we have gone

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 through what is to be tested and what is not to be 2 tested, I think I am okay, but I need some time -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MR. WHITWELL: -- just to make sure that 5 that 18-digit model number is going to be able to 6 capture everything that you are interested in -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. WHITWELL: -- and understanding that you 9 are not interested in being able to pick a unit from 10 what we submit that has any type of option. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 12 MR. WHITWELL: I understand that you are not 13 interested in that. 14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I 15 think it might be helpful if we brought in some 16 examples from our companies with laying out the part 17 number, where we can then hopefully associate "Okay. 18 These are exempted nomenclatures. And, therefore, 19 they shouldn't be. And these are not exempted 20 nomenclatures. So they shouldn't be included." 21 And maybe this can also be used to build a 22 document, informational document, that DOE could

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 provide to manufacturers that aren't sitting in this 2 room so that they would be able to fill out your 3 templates properly. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I 5 tend to agree with you except that is the kind of 6 thing I think would be good to do within AHRI, where 7 we have the members that have these different model 8 number schemes. Then we can come back to this group 9 with a more "Here are the things we looked at. Here 10 is a common approach that would work." Of all the 11 ones I heard, nobody mentioned one that it's not 12 uncommon. It's not the most common. And that's where 13 you have a basic model group to define "Here's what I 14 am buying." Then you go on to the website, as he was 15 talking about, and you make all of these selections. 16 And the number that is generated, it's like a 10 or 12 17 or 20-digit number that tells you everything about 18 that unit, including the customer. So that if a 19 different customer ordered the exact same options, 20 they would have a different model number. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's right. 22 MR. MYERS: So, you know, that is the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 configurator concept. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And no portion of that number 3 is the same. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. There is a portion 5 that is the same. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Because it -- 7 MR. MYERS: In our case, it's not. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 9 MR. MYERS: It is whatever the next sequence 10 of numbers is. It is the next number that the 11 computer selects for you. That is the configuration 12 for that customer because we want off -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, which is a pure. And I 14 totally understand where you're getting it because 15 that is where ours is built off of. 16 MR. MYERS: Yes. Because we're one off, 17 every unit is treated as unique for that customer. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And we have -- 19 MR. MYERS: So we have a unique model 20 number. 21 MR. WHITWELL: We have model numbers like 22 that for our one-off special orders.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 MR. MYERS: I haven't figured a way to 2 accommodate this. I think Rheem's suggestion along 3 with getting some samples in, we really need to look 4 at how can we accommodate these, or can we. Is it not 5 possible to accommodate them? Because that is a big 6 change when you are talking about the way you track 7 your sales for many, many years. And then you come in 8 and have a different model number scheme. The ripple 9 out is huge. 10 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. When 11 I was in the custom business, we did that exactly. 12 Actually, the model number was the serial number 13 because it was so unique and everything. You know, we 14 billed anything that you asked us to bill. 15 MR. MYERS: We're not smart enough to do 16 that, but it's a great idea. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. A couple of 18 comments. One of them is picking up Karim's idea that 19 AHRI members start working on this. I have huge 20 respect for that process, but I think that somehow it 21 has got to be an open process in that there are 22 classes of equipment we are dealing with, such as CRE,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 where a significant fraction of product is not AHRI 2 member product. 3 The second thing is it is 2013. And mapping 4 from some arbitrary thing into what you need is not a 5 major database issue. This is a table of numbers. 6 And I think you can achieve your goals within the 7 diversity of manufacturer approaches if it is thought 8 about in terms of what I have called a functional 9 specification. But I don't think I understand clearly 10 what you want. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So basic model, basic 12 model number is the number that the manufacturer wants 13 to use to designate for the Department all of these 14 things are alike that I am selling. 15 MR. SACHS: So we could take that number and 16

- 17 - 18 MS. BARHYDT: And that can be a public 19 number. That can be an internal number. It can be a 20 number that nobody has ever heard of. But it is the 21 way they communicate to the Department. These are all 22 the things that I have stuck into my basic model.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 MR. SACHS: Right. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And then in that statement, 3 these are all the things that are in the basic model. 4 These are the individual model numbers. So all of 5 these individual model numbers are in this basic 6 model. And these model numbers should be tied to 7 something that we would see on a nameplate or on sales 8 literature or if we're going out to buy one, if 9 someone else is going out to buy one, everybody can 10 look at that and say, "This is what we're looking at." 11 MR. SACHS: All right. Now, let me ask a 12 question on that. I can interpret this in two ways. 13 One of them is that the nameplate directly reveals the 14 basic model number, your test classification, as it 15 were. The other is that it is linked to something 16 that tells you because if it is just linked, that 17 accommodates everybody from Frank and his serial 18 number equals model number to all of the large 19 production manufacturers. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So let me give you another 21 example. We have one manufacturer who submits his 22 certification report. And he has basic model one,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, right on 2 down. And then he has all of his individual model 3 numbers, which are what he actually sells. 4 MR. SACHS: Okay. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model numbers, he just 6 numbered them. 7 MR. SACHS: I would think about basic model 8 numbers as being grape and apricot. It's a name. 9 It's not even a number. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. It's anything. 11 MR. SACHS: Right. I could be wrong, but I 12 think if we can reduce that to exactly what it is that 13 you are looking for in a way that allows that mapping 14 to be generated, I think my sense is the manufacturers 15 can comply. 16 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. For the one-off 17 manufacturers, they could have a basic model they base 18 their custom model off of. And that would be basic 19 model 1. And then if they have three customers that 20 ask for the special models, they could have individual 21 models listed as ABC under that basic model 1. And if 22 two years later somebody else comes back for a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 different model, they could add D under that same 2 basic model. 3 MR. SACHS: Right. It's a dynamic. 4 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe jumping ahead but 5 now this gets into the question about timing because 6 you don't know what you're going to build until you 7 get the order. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, so let's deal with 9 the timing issue separately. I realize that is a huge 10 issue that we have to deal with. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 12 MS. BARHYDT: But let's deal with the timing 13 issue separately. In terms of yes, they could have -- 14 go ahead, Ron. 15 MR. SHEBIK: I'm getting feedback. So I 16 hope it's not on your end, but one question is okay. 17 If you are listing under an AEDM, then I assume basic 18 model does not come into play at all. Is that 19 correct? 20 MS. BARHYDT: No. You still have basic 21 models. 22 MR. SHEBIK: So if you are using AEDM, you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 still have to also include a basic model number? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 3 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And AEDM is how you generate 5 your rating, but you still have basic models. 6 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 7 National. I think just clarifying also between model 8 groups, basic model, and basic models can obviously be 9 multiples within an AEDM. And then you get down from 10 basic model to individual model. To me, I think that 11 is what we are talking about here, really, is the 12 individual model when you go out and want to buy a 13 cabinet or whatever. That is the individual model you 14 are going to be purchasing. CRE as far as I know -- I 15 don't know if Ron would agree with this or not, but I 16 would think it would be the model number that is on 17 the serial plate, the data plate that you -- again, 18 that is what you had identified. That's generally 19 what would be in our literature. That's what you well 20 or friends would go out if somebody had a question 21 about a listing, that that all refers back to a 22 product that they know what it was built with and what

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 the options are and things. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That's what we -- 3 MR. BAUMAN: They are better applicable. 4 Now, let me just finish. 5 One other thing. Now, if you had a customer 6 that bought a two-section refrigerator again but they 7 used a special grille or a nameplate on there, that is 8 still your product. You are selling it under your 9 product. And we know that grille does not have to be 10 tested separately. That is something the manufacturer 11 can control internally. It's still the same model 12 number as far as those other things go. So you don't 13 need a separate individual model. You do not need a 14 separate individual model for that? 15 MS. BARHYDT: No. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So going back to the point 18 Rusty made where you could have basic model 1 with 19 individual model ABCD or ABC and then a few years 20 later somebody wants something slightly different and 21 you come up with D, that's where yes, you can do it 22 that way, but that's where the asterisks come in is if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 you certified it as individual model 1*, then if you 2 sell it as 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, you could add 1E, 1F, and 3 you have already certified all of those individual 4 models, then you don't have to submit any new 5 certification at all; whereas, if you just call it A 6 and then you have a B, then you've got to keep adding 7 individual models. And that's where you really reduce 8 your burden using the asterisks. 9 MR. FLY: This is Mark with AAON. So the 10 Department is not looking to have in their possession 11 every individual model number. You just want to be 12 able to trace any individual model number in commerce 13 back to a basic number? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Sort of. So to be clear, if 15 you sell 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 16 I don't want all of those, but I do want 11234*. 17 MR. FLY: Or asterisk. You want some way to 18 trace it back. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. And it's that 20 traceability. 21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron Shebik. Can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 I ask you a question again? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Ron. 3 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Here is what I am 4 looking at. Make sure I am following you guys 5 correctly. What we were looking at for an AEDM would 6 literally lift every single configuration that we 7 build and as a unique configuration would give you the 8 energy consumption for that case. Now, it can be a 9 lot of road. It is going to be a lot of different 10 configurations. But since each one is unique, each 11 one can have its own unique energy number; that is why 12 we are going to go that route. We would have 13 individual model numbers, but we would not link those 14 to a basic model because each one is unique. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So you would not do any 16 grouping at all? 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. So in Ron's case, he's 18 saying that he's not doing any grouping. If he makes 19 a million things, he's going to have a million basic 20 models, one AEDM, but you have to certify a million 21 things. 22 MR. SHEBIK: A million individual models,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 but everyone is going to have his own unique energy 2 number. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: But there are ways you could 4 group those. You could rate them at the lowest one if 5 they have the same -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: If one came out to 340 and 7 another came out to 343 and another one came out to 8 342, why would you not want to just rate them all a 9 345? 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff for National. Now 11 you're talking again about that would be the same 12 basic model but not the same individual model 13 potentially? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. So you'd have an 16 asterisk and say -- 17 MR. BAUMAN: Right, right. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- "All ten of these are 19 this basic model. I'm going to rate it at the most 20 consumptive" -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Most conservative, consumptive 22 in that case.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- "model." And then that's 2 the way you do it. And if we pull one to test, you 3 know, the most consumptive one should be the one you 4 rate. And then if it's less consumptive, everything 5 is good. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Or this is Ron again. I'm not 7 saying we couldn't do that, but -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, it's up to you. 9 MS. BARHYDT: It's entirely up to you. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can do it any way you 11 want, Ron. I mean, every manufacturer, you know, has 12 different reasons for why they would want to group or 13 not group. 14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. That's what I want to 15 make clear because, again, there are different ways. 16 I know from the CRE side and some of our competitors, 17 we have different approaches for moving forward on 18 this. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 20 MR. SHEBIK: There may be some grouping. 21 There may be some grouping combined with an AEDM. You 22 know, there are different ways of doing this. The

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 worst case would be going into an individual model 2 would be unique. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So, Ron, if you wanted to make 4 each individual model a different basic model, I think 5 what you would do is you would report your individual 6 model number in both the basic model and the 7 individual model number fields to indicate that you 8 wanted each and every one of those treated as a 9 separate basic model. 10 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Good. You know, I just 11 wanted to point out different -- I know there are 12 several different manufacturers, and we are all going 13 to have different ways of doing this. But I just want 14 to make sure everything is going to be covered. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I just 17 wanted to -- after hearing the talk about mapping, the 18 description that I was giving earlier is a model 19 number scheme that is used in the industry. The 20 description that I was giving earlier is a model 21 number scheme that is used in the industry today and 22 is not amenable to mapping, using our coated/uncoated,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 not to discuss the merits of it anymore because that 2 is one we have recently talked about. Since that has 3 been an add-on, imagine your basic model does not 4 include that. The customer can select it, but that 5 becomes a part of what is the randomly generated 6 configuration number. So if you have a coated coil, 7 that's included with model number 20-digit long, which 8 includes the shipping address and everything else that 9 they checked off and filled in when they ordered that 10 product. 11 So I don't have a way to map that randomly 12 generated number, which is the configuration number, 13 which contains the coated coil that they selected. 14 There's no way to map that to anything because the 15 next time it's built with that coated coil, it's going 16 to be a completely different number, randomly 17 generated as a part of the configuration. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, going back to Harvey's 19 point, in this day and age, I mean, the script can be 20 written in such a way that -- I mean, you guys talk 21 about your platforms being your basic model. Why 22 wouldn't the first six or eight characters be locked

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 in or mapped to what you call your basic model? And 2 then the script would then randomly select digits for 3 the uniqueness. I mean, that could be done. 4 MR. WHITWELL: That possibly could be done, 5 but that means changing manufacturers' model numbering 6 structure, which may or may not be -- 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Possible. 8 MR. WHITWELL: -- an easy thing. You're 9 getting into the whole IT system that we used -- 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 11 MR. WHITWELL: -- for ordering, invoicing, 12 producing the product. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: A lot of it is -- 14 MR. MYERS: That's our entire business. Our 15 business -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: It's not an easy thing. I 17 mean, it costs a lot of money. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: A lot of money and years to do 19 it. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Bob, give me a -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I think I don't have 22 the same situation that Frank has there.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 MS. BARHYDT: Give me a name of one of your 2 lines of products. 3 MR. WHITWELL: So like a 50P? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Like in -- okay. Let's say in 5

- 6 - 7 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, like WEATHERMAKER? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Okay. 10 MS. BARHYDT: In marketing-eze. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Now, WEATHERMAKER, we 12 have different product ranges within that name. We 13 would have a small and medium rooftop WEATHERMAKER. 14 We have large rooftop WEATHERMAKER. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So when we say, "model 16 number," you could say -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: I could say a 50TC-010. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, actually, I was 19 trying to get you to go the other way with that. What 20 you said the first time, that you could use your basic 21 model number as the 15-ton WEATHERMAKER whatever. It 22 doesn't have to be a code.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 MR. WHITWELL: So basic model number could 2 be a description. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: But if we want the information 4 shared from AHRI and only one point of entry of the 5 information if it's already there in AHRI, it's there 6 like Bob has described with the asterisks. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And, actually, I have 8 another question that may be digging into another 9 thing. So once we submit this information, what is 10 going to be available to people who go into the 11 database because that might be another thing that we 12 want to understand? 13 MS. BARHYDT: So the type, class, product 14 label or brand, basic model, individual model. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So all of that is in 16 there. So -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: But not manufacturer, not the 18 status, not -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: So I think we would prefer 20 that to be the same as what we have in the AHRI 21 directory so people don't get confused. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 MR. WHITWELL: Right? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane. 3 You know, the utilities all key off of. Are they 4 going to key off of this to try to figure out what 5 their rebates are? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so I guess that's -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Are they keying off of AHRI, 8 which then gets transferred to CEE? 9 MR. AMRANE: That's why we need to have this 10 discussion 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes, because we're going 12 to have the same information in two different places. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: I really want one point of 14 entry. The more points of entry, the more mistakes 15 happen, we all know, in data. 16 MR. WHITWELL: That's right. 17 MR. MYERS: Yes, certainly. This is Frank 18 Myers again. I agree with that, one point of entry 19 for those manufacturers that are in the AHRI program, 20 though. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, right. 22 MR. MYERS: But for those of us that don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 currently participate in the AHRI program -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Then your one point of entry 3 is here. 4 MR. MYERS: And if we do part of -- can we 5 get in -- is it reasonable for us to get in -- are we 6 going to generate a brand new business enterprise 7 resource- planning system and change our model number 8 system so that we lose track of all our historical 9 stuff since we're not doing it the same way? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 11 MR. MYERS: It's a huge deal to change 12 models, I mean, business changing. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: No question. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And that's why we have 15 our 18-digit model number, instead of the 35-digit -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 17 MR. WHITWELL: -- as an historic thing. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 19 MR. SACHS: I think John slightly 20 mischaracterized what I'm suggesting with mapping, 21 that I would put on the manufacturers the 22 responsibility of whatever that individual model

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 number is on the nameplate has a translation through a 2 database into what basic model it is assigned to. It 3 can be Frank's arbitrary sequential number. It is 4 basically his bill sheet code. It can be Jill's 5 system, can be Mark's 99 characters, but somewhere 6 there exists a translation. So if you want to check a 7 basic model, that's all we need. It does not have to 8

-- 9 MS. MEYERS: So, Harvey, this is Karen. Are 10 you saying that needs to be available on a publicly 11 accessible site? 12 MR. SACHS: I did not say that. 13 MR. BALLO: I'll say it. 14 MS. MEYERS: Okay. That's all. That's all. 15 That's a proprietary software issue. And yes. I 16 mean, I have trouble figuring out what's in a carrier 17 unit because I don't have access to their decoder. 18 So, you know, it's hard for us to, you know, figure 19 out what the heck they're doing. So you know, which 20 is good for them, I mean, you know, but it is 21 proprietary-type information. And it also gets into 22 manufacturing processes, too.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 MR. SACHS: What I think has to be available 2 to DOE is what model number that code is assigned to. 3 Now, I'm hearing that Tim feels that there ought to be 4 some sort of public interface there, but I don't think 5 I have need to know the decoding function. This gets 6 into sort of one-way codes. What I need to know is, 7 is DOE testing something that is properly assigned to 8 its basic model? 9 MR. AMRANE: We are already submitting 10 information to DOE on the residential product. And 11 that has worked relatively fine. So I think there is 12 a solution to this, I think. 13 MR. SACHS: Yes, I think there is a solution 14 also. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Karim, I agree with you. I 16 think there is a solution. We have to think about 17 that. But I also don't want to compare this to 18 residential. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: There are not configurators in 21 residential. 22 MR. AMRANE: That's true.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 MR. WHITWELL: Except for the single phase 2 three to five-ton single package product. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, you know what I'm 4 getting at, Bob. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the magnitude that 7 we're talking about in the -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Right, absolutely. Right, 9 absolutely. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. In 11 terms of anyone needing to know what that sequential 12 code is, a request to us -- and we can punch it into 13 our system and we can tell -- the difficulty is 14 mapping that over to somebody else's system. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 16 MR. MYERS: That is where the difficulty 17 comes in and would be integrated with our customer 18 database and all the other things that are a part of 19 that. So you would have to map it in such a way 20 you're only pulling out certain parts of it. But that 21 is how we service units. You know, what is your 22 number? We'll look at that multi-digit one-off

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 sequential number. And we can go back and pull up in 2 the system every detail, -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: Building material. 4 MR. MYERS: -- what day it was made -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 7 MR. MYERS: -- the building materials that 8 were used on that specific unit. All of that 9 information is contained in that number. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, with the -- yes. 11 MR. MYERS: But it's sequential. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So what do you have certified 13 with AHRI right now? 14 MR. MYERS: We don't. We don't participate 15 with AHRI. 16 MS. BARHYDT: You don't participate in the 17 certification? 18 MR. MYERS: We are members of AHRI. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. MYERS: But we don't currently. We 21 would love to, but these are just parts of the 22 difficulties for a one-off manufacturer like us to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 participate in the program. We would love to. It's 2 difficult. This is one of those areas of difficulty. 3 MR. FLY: This is Mark with AAON again. I 4 guess we've got individual model numbers. So if you 5 had this asterisk string like we've talked about some 6 of us could use, would the basic model and the 7 individual model be the same? 8 MS. BARHYDT: For some people, they are. 9 For some people, they are not. 10 MR. WHITWELL: No. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model number is entirely 12 up to you, whatever you want to call it, just so long 13 as -- 14 MR. FLY: But that is your label. I mean, 15 it's the label for you. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It's the label you use 17 to communicate to the Department that all of these 18 things are alike. 19 MR. FLY: But you would have many, many, 20 many individual numbers under a basic model if you can 21 do that grouping. I could have thousands. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. But it may be one line

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 item with a whole lot of asterisks. 2 MR. FLY: Asterisks, I know, or if you're 3 like Frank and you don't use that kind of system, it 4 could - - if you could root things in a model, it 5 could also be thousands of individual models, which 6 may have a customer code because that's what a system 7 does. 8 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So my 9 understanding is you just want the placeholders, the 10 asterisks, to identify what the variables are. We 11 don't even necessarily have to identify what that 12 variables are to you. 13 MS. BARHYDT: No. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Because that is going 15 to be a difference between reporting to the DOE and 16 reporting to AHRI. AHRI wants to know what each one 17 of those different options is. 18 MS. BARHYDT: No. We don't ask that. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Great. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Laura, is 21 that true even for items that do impact efficiency or 22 do you not worry about it because that is covered by

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 the basic model? 2 MS. BARHYDT: It's in the basic model. And 3 we have agreed that we won't test certain things. So 4 we wouldn't order it. So it doesn't matter which 5 asterisk it is. 6 MR. MYERS: But if it was something that is 7 covered, would that need to be in the basic model? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I am not sure I understand the 9 question. 10 MR. MYERS: Using the coated coil again, if 11 it was in one of the product groups that you need to 12 know whether it is coated or not, would you need that 13 to be in the basic model? 14 MS. BARHYDT: So you could -- 15 MR. MYERS: I could have a basic model that 16 includes that without having that as a designation. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so you could still 18 just have an asterisk. And we might buy one with a 19 coated coil or we might buy one without a coated coil. 20 It can still be an asterisk -- 21 MR. MYERS: Okay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you have grouped them

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 all together for your rating. 2 MR. MYERS: Yes, because whatever is covered 3 by that basic number, however we choose to structure 4 it, it meets this efficiency or it doesn't. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6 MR. MYERS: Okay. I gotcha. 7 MR. NESHAN: This is Massoud Neshan with 8 Southern Store Fixtures. I have a question on the 9 test samples, only one in the case of the use of AEDM. 10 We discussed it before, but, I mean, it's one of a 11 kind all the time. There's only one. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 13 MR. NESHAN: There's no AEDM. I have to 14 test this where the sample size would be one. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So no AEDM if there is 16 only one unit. Harvey has advocated vigorously for us 17 to make a regulatory change to make it clear that if 18 you only manufacture one, sample size one. But that 19 is something, we'll have to stick it into the 20 rulemaking. In the regs right now, it's two. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. There's something I 22 need to know before we can go on. One question.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 There's a Smartphone app based on the game Scrabble. 2 Will it accept "configurator"? Where do you guys get 3 these words? 4 MALE SPEAKER: It should be in the 5 dictionary because we all use it. 6 MR. SACHS: Neil, the important question is, 7 what would I build configurator out of when I only 8 have seven letters in my stick? 9 MR. EISNER: You get on the end of "ator." 10 MR. WHITWELL: On the end of "configure," 11 "con." 12 MR. SACHS: "Figurator." 13 MS. BARHYDT: No because you'd have an "e" 14 on there. You'd have to not be -- 15 MR. SACHS: "Con" is first. 16 MR. WHITWELL: "Con" and "configure." 17 MR. EISNER: I've still got trouble but good 18 point otherwise. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. "Ator." Yes, you've 20 got to drop the "e." 21 MR. SACHS: I'm certainly more comfortable 22 with "configurator" than "nominal."

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 MR. EISNER: At least you have an idea what 2 that means. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Any other questions 4 about any of the items on this slide? I know 5 everybody wants to go back and look at their own 6 individual model lines and think about how it would 7 work but -- 8 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. When 9 we talked on this slide a few meetings ago, we said 10 that everything from status all the way down would not 11 be public information. And I just want to confirm 12 that. That's what I had written in my notes anyway. 13 MS. BARHYDT: That's -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, the notes -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: I never can remember if -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: -- that were published up on 17 the SharePoint July 10th had those comments in them: 18 public, public, public. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Because I never can 20 remember if the waivers and the AEDM and exception 21 were online or not. You can go to the website and see 22 whether that's public or not. I just never can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 remember if that is up there or not. 2 MS. TUCKER: It's not up on the database, 3 but it's also not listed in the CFR. You don't 4 publish it in the public news. 5 MS. BARHYDT: But even if you do the Excel 6 download, it's not? 7 MS. TUCKER: I don't know. Let's see if 8 it's in here. 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. At the 10 bottom of that list, it looked like it still had did 11 you use an AEDM or not. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And that is something 13 else that we are going to have to change to make it 14 clear which -- 15 MR. MYERS: What designation for the AEDM -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: -- what AEDM you used. 17 Actually, can you add that note? 18 MS. TUCKER: Which AEDM is used? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Not whether. Just if it 20 is, they will specify which one. If it's not -- 21 MS. TUCKER: They're just going to do -- I 22 think they're not going to have the "No" or "Yes"

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 column. They're still going to have that validator. 2 Is that correct or not? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I guess right now, it's 4 a "Yes" or "No," isn't it? Yes. You're right. 5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Obviously, 6 speaking mapping from an IT point of view, you don't 7 really need "Yes"/"No." If you fill in the AEDM or 8 the number, that's a "Yes." 9 MS. BARHYDT: That's a "Yes," but we need an 10 affirmative "No." 11 MR. MYERS: Okay. 12 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. When we say, 13 "Sample," "Test sample size 1," 1 is not one test. 14 It's one for -- designated whether you are using an 15 AEDM; right? 16 MS. BARHYDT: If only that were true. I 17 mean, we do get certifications where they tested one. 18 And we prosecute those. So I don't want to take one 19 as a yes, I used an AEDM. 20 MR. THARP: Why couldn't we use zero? Why 21 couldn't you say zero equals AEDM for the test column? 22 MS. TUCKER: We could do that. We'd have to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 reprogram it. 2 MR. THARP: Test sample size zero equals 3 AEDM. Anything else is how many they actually tested. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm okay with that. 5 MR. THARP: And then if there's a zero, then 6 you have to enter something in the which AEDM column. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I'm okay with that. 8 MR. AMRANE: Yes, something like that. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That works. Did you get 10 all of that? 11 MS. TUCKER: Zero? Zero right here? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Change it to zero. Make it a 13 letter or something so we remember. 14 MALE SPEAKER: And then that requires entry 15 of the AEDM. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And then what AEDM was used if 17 zero and test sample size. That works. Okay? 18 Anything else on this slide? 19 MR. KLEISS: This is where you're also 20 supposed to put the list of the things that the third 21 party lab will need to know in order to test the 22 units?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 MS. BARHYDT: No, no. Okay. Okay. Next 2 slide. Commercial warm air furnaces. DOE regs 3 currently require thermal efficiency and maximum rated 4 input capacity. We talked some about what other 5 information should be provided to DOE. And we talked 6 about the PDF with additional testing instructions. 7 There are certain pieces of information DOE 8 needs in order to run the test. And we think that 9 those pieces of information should be required, not 10 optional. And I think that is the list of things that 11 we think we need in order to run the test. 12 MR. WHITWELL: So furnace-type, if it's 13 weatherized or non-weatherized? It's blower motor. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Why do you need to know blower 15 motor? 16 MS. TUCKER: Furnace-type, condensing or 17 non- condensing, modulating, two-stage, single-stage. 18 I just got some feedback from some of the labs. 19 Blower motor. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: You're going to have to speak 21 up over the -- 22 MS. TUCKER: Sorry.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- portable air conditioner. 2 MALE SPEAKER: We need sound attenuators for 3 that thing. 4 MS. BARHYDT: That's right. 5 MS. TUCKER: As far as the blower motor -- 6 sorry. Speak up more? 7 MS. BARHYDT: More. 8 MS. TUCKER: We're looking for, I guess, 9 whether it's a direct drive, what type of motor it is, 10 so direct drive, multi-speed, VFD. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So this is blower -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Why and why? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm still asking why you need 15 that. You don't need that for the test. 16 MR. WHITWELL: It's not part of the test. 17 MR. AMRANE: Right, not part of the test. 18 MS. TUCKER: Yes. I mean -- 19 MR. AMRANE: Who's asking for this? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: We would send that in the PDF 21 notes where you have to put that in, but I don't 22 understand why that needs to be part of the public

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 information. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, this is public 3 information? 4 MS. TUCKER: It's not necessarily public. 5 MS. BARHYDT: It's not necessarily public. 6 MS. TUCKER: It's not necessarily public. 7 It's just that -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Information that we would 9 collect so that we would task whatever we bought. 10 MS. TUCKER: If this is something we know 11 that we need, you know, we would make it required, 12 rather than optional. The PDF is optional. 13 MR. THARP: You might need speed tap or 14 configuration shift, configuration. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: But, again, those seem to be 16 notes that we send in our PDF documents that are 17 unique about how to operate that unit -- 18 MR. THARP: Right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in order to achieve the 20 rating condition. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. So is this -- 22 MR. THARP: And it varies enough product to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 product that it should be -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: It does. 3 MR. THARP: -- you can't really have one -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: And so in a basic model group, 5 we could have when ones all certified that could be of 6 three different types of blower motors, but the gas 7 furnace is the exact same thing. And we're rating 8 them all. So I don't know how I would put three 9 different types of blower motors. And, yet, I'm 10 grouping them all at a top level for a gas furnace. 11 MR. FLY: At the lowest efficiency. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: At the lowest efficiency. 13 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And 14 I think the purpose of the certification is to see if 15 it's certified to the correct efficiency. So why this 16 other information needs to be provided to DOE is lost 17 on me. I mean, just look at the difference between 18 those two bullets: what we currently provide and what 19 should be provided. And I'm not sure what -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 21 MS. MEYERS: -- other stuff has to do with 22 determining whether the unit was rated at the correct

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 efficiency. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if I buy a warm air 3 furnace and you have opted not to provide a PDF, can I 4 test it without knowing that information? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. In my 7 experience, which is predominantly residential 8 equipment, the box comes with an installation manual. 9 And it comes with a service manual. And we've got a 10 PDF option. So the question I'm asking is, is 11 commercial stuff shipped with the same kind of 12 information? And does that include everything you're 13 asking for? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Not always. 15 MR. SACHS: Why? I don't think either of us 16 has authored these. So I'm -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Not always. 18 MR. SACHS: You have done more review than I 19 have, and I'm glad it was you. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I am very 21 curious about that. So without revealing anything, 22 just what is an example if you ordered a furnace and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 you had no way to determine what -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: So we have bought units. And 3 they have had insufficient information in the 4 materials provided for us to test it as rated. 5 There's not enough information there. And so we test 6 it. And yes, we can test it. And I guarantee you 7 we're not going to come out with the rating that the 8 manufacturer wanted, but there are other pieces of 9 information that my understanding is that we can't 10 really test it without knowing those pieces of 11 information. Just it won't work. And that's the 12 technical side that I don't know enough about, but -- 13 MR. MYERS: Okay. So you are not able to 14 give an example of -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Not specifics, no. 16 MR. MYERS: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: But we have had cases where we 18 have bought products and they do not have sufficient 19 information. And yes, some of it can be optional. 20 And if it's not provided, it's at the manufacturer's 21 risk. But there's some of it that it's my 22 understanding we simply cannot do the test without the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 information. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again, PVI. 3 Now that I'm getting a grasp of what you are talking 4 about, might it be possible for the regulation to say, 5 "If this information is not provided with the product, 6 then you have to provide it with your data reporting"? 7 MS. BARHYDT: The problem still is there 8 that we can buy something and not have the information 9 we need to test. And a manufacturer shouldn't have an 10 advantage by not providing the information because 11 then we have no choice but to go to them and ask for 12 information. And then they can tell us whatever they 13 want to tell us. The idea is that that should be 14 provided up front. 15 MR. MYERS: I am with you. I probably 16 wasn't clear based on the response that this 17 information must be provided but one of two ways. It 18 either has to be provided with the piece of equipment 19 so when you go out and buy it, it's there or you have 20 to provide it separately as a part of your report. So 21 the rule is this information must either be with or on 22 the product or you have to turn it in. Then it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 wouldn't be a burden for the 99 percent or 95 percent 2 that already provide the information necessary to run 3 the test. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We 5 are going to have an issue when it comes to supply 6 chain availability. Say a current motor isn't 7 available. So we have to make production with a 8 higher efficiency motor for a while; right? If we 9 decide to stay with it, then instead of it being a 10 short-term deviation, then it's a revision to the 11 finished good. So what do we do with the revision? 12 Are we expected to report, "Okay. It's not this motor 13 type. It's this other motor type" and give you the 14 updates along with when the change happened and all 15 that? That is going to be an issue. That is going to 16 be a big issue because that is a tremendous burden on 17 the smaller manufacturers. 18 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. Can 19 you hear me? 20 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 22 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I am looking at the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 specific commercial warm air furnace slide. First of 2 all, keep in mind you are only measuring the thermal 3 efficiency. The information about the flu type, I'm 4 not exactly sure what that even is, but you certainly 5 don't need to know whether or not it has a damper to 6 measure thermal efficiency. I don't see the relevancy 7 of either the ignition type or the burner type. And 8 as far as the flu length and diameter, if it's a 9 safety- certified furnace, which I hope they all are, 10 that information has to be provided in the 11 manufacturer's installation instructions. There's no 12 question of it not being available. It has to be 13 there. 14 And the configuration is -- again, I'm not 15 sure why that matters. And I think we have been 16 discussing. At least I heard some part of the 17 question is what difference does it make to thermal 18 efficiency what the blower motor is? This is a way 19 lot more information than is really needed to run a 20 basic thermal efficiency test for a commercial warm 21 air furnace. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree with Frank. I mean, I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 am going to give you an example. We have a 250,000 2 Btu input heat exchanger. That heat exchanger is used 3 in a 7 and a half-ton cooling unit, a 10-ton cooling 4 unit, a 12 and a half-ton cooling unit. And it has 5 different blower types. It has three different blower 6 types, blower motors, covering all that range. I only 7 want to certify that 250,000 Btu furnace. I don't 8 want to have to break this all out into individual 9 basic models now so that I can show you a different 10 blower motor type every single time. The test is Btu 11 in, Btu out, calculate your thermal efficiency. That 12 is the test. You don't need any of this other 13 information. 14 And all of that, like he said, the flu type, 15 the flu length, the diameter, is all relevant to 16 somebody installing this in the field. And it has to 17 be there in the IOM. I'm pretty sure that's part of 18 1995 safety. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's what Frank said. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 21 MR. STANONIK: Both 1995 and Z21.47, both of 22 them.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes, both of them. You're 2 right. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it is your view that 4 none of these are necessary to be able to run a test 5 of a commercial warm air furnace? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Input rating is. Thermal 7 efficiency is. 8 MS. BARHYDT: And nothing else? 9 MR. MYERS: Which are the current. This is 10 Frank Myers. Which are the current requirements. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. WHITWELL: And fuel type. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. You're right. Fuel 14 type. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Natural gas or oil or -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MS. TUCKER: That would be determinable 20 based on the product class; correct? 21 MR. AMRANE: Right. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's your --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it could be natural gas 2 or propane; right? 3 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 4 MR. MYERS: Those are default to natural 5 gas. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 7 MR. KOJAK: You should erase "Fuel type" 8 underneath "Thermal efficiency." 9 MR. STANONIK: But fuel type is not in the 10 rating plate. Again, that's required by the standard. 11 It has to be. And we list them based on fuel type 12 anyway. I mean, that's -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: So we list it as natural gas. 14 Yes. Okay. All right. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But not everybody is a 16 member. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: No. What he's saying, it has 18 to be there for UL 1995 safety standards. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So it has to be in the 20 instructions for the product? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It has to be in the standard. 22 MR. WHITWELL: And the test procedure says

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 test with natural gas; right? Is that what that -- 2 yes. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And we don't need it. 5 MS. TUCKER: So no other information is 6 necessary for them to set up properly? I mean, it's 7 not going to be a question, comeback question? 8 MR. SACHS: Well, I think it's implicit here 9 that the product will shift with its installation and 10 operating manuals. Nobody is going to open the 11 computer box and not find how to turn it on. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, you're going to 13 get a rooftop unit. In the case of our product, you 14 are going to get a whole rooftop unit with the 15 installation and service instructions. That's going 16 to tell you what you need to do. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And, actually, Bob -- 18 not necessarily. Think about this. This goes there's 19 no upward end. There's no top tolerance. This 20 commercial furnace goes 225,000 Btu and higher. And 21 it can go all the way up to a million, two million, 22 whatever. There was a way to just build in some of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 those big ones just your gas heating section plus an 2 air mover and not have to buy and build the whole 3 cooling system; right, a lot of those units. So we 4 could supply them, just, you know, the air-handling 5 portion of a large rooftop and a furnace, and not have 6 to -- and that would be like one- fourth the expense 7 without having the whole compressor refrigeration 8 system. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So that would be a special 10 order that you would have to do -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to submit to 13 the factory. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And there is nobody 15 who can test them that big. So guess what happens. 16 The same thing happens with AHRI commercial 17 certification program. They come test it at us. And 18 I can tell you that we have done that. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we decided fuel type 20 was not necessary? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MS. BARHYDT: And the input rating and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 thermal efficiency are already above. So okay. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Mike, that jibes with 3 what you need to know if you were to test one of 4 these? 5 MR. KOJAK: We don't test for this. 6 MR. MYERS: You don't do this? Okay. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: That's where I'm getting back 8 to. You're going to run into our problem with 9 testing. 10 MR. AMRANE: Intertek has asked about this? 11 MS. BARHYDT: They said -- 12 MR. AMRANE: This is what they need to test? 13 MS. BARHYDT: They said, "These are some 14 things we might want to talk about." 15 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank again. I'm 16 actually looking at the test procedure on my computer. 17 And relative to flu length and diameter, you actually 18 test the furnace with the flu length essentially gets 19 you five and a half inches above the draft or the leaf 20 opening or whatever. So, in fact, again, you don't 21 need to know the flu length. The test procedure 22 actually specifies you have to have this, whatever

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 length gets you to this five and a half inches above 2 the draft or the leaf opening or whatever outlet. But 3 it's all specified in the procedure. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. 5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Laura, I 6 think all of those things are probably needed to 7 conduct the test. But it's all either specified in 8 the test or it's provided with the unit with the 9 exception of what you're -- to identify this unit has 10 this many Btu and this thermal efficiency. So it's 11 not that you don't need that to run the test. It's 12 just it's available either from a procedure or from a 13 product. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. Oh, next slide. 15 MR. WHITWELL: But in the case that Jill 16 mentioned, there would probably be some special 17 instructions that the lab might need or whoever is 18 doing the test to test a partial unit; right? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So there there would be 21 some special instructions. That would be a special 22 case.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Nobody can test it on 2 any Btu without coming back to said plant. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: There is no reason that you 5 need to buy -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: A hundred thousand-dollar -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: -- a 130-ton unit and all that 8 refrigeration system when all you want to test -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- is the gas furnace and the 11 air -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Yes. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm trying to save the 14 taxpayer money. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Plus the extra space to try 16 to fit that whole unit into the -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, yes. Then you are 18 really running out of -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: -- 60-foot-long unit. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- true CA rooms that can 21 handle all of that and handle the gas. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI 2 again. Just to confirm what I believe is in the words 3 here, there is not a mandate to provide the additional 4 instructions. That was -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Optional. Option. 6 MR. MYERS: If you want to help out and help 7 that first test be successful, this is where you do 8 it. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So for commercial 10 package boilers, it's combustion efficiency and 11 maximum rated input capacity. Are there other pieces 12 of information the Department needs to be able to run 13 this test? 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We 15 make commercial commercial package boilers, and this 16 is the same situation as furnace. I think you have -- 17 you didn't read off the thermal efficiency, whichever 18 is required. But, yes, if you have that information, 19 then everything is either in a standard or it is 20 provided on the product detail or the instructions. 21 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith. The PDF 22 would be very important for us, because the software -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 - sometimes we have to go in there and make software 2 changes to the unit, because they are all software3 controlled now. So a PDF would almost be required for 4 us to do the testing properly. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So what information are you 6 expecting to see in the PDF for you to be able to do 7 the test? 8 MR. SMITH: Well, access to software, 9 downloaded software, we have to download it to 10 communicate, or who to contact to download the 11 software, so we can communicate with the computer on 12 board to make changes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: And what kind of changes are 14 you making to the -- 15 MR. SMITH: To put out a rate. That's 16 pretty much it. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Typically, you have to enter 18 a service mode in the software, so that it will 19 operate for that length of time. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Basically, it tells the 22 safety systems everything is okay; you can do this.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. STEPHENS: But the service mode only 3 lasts for so long, typically, so -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so the key issue 5 here is being able to get the software, or where to 6 get the software, so that you can do that. 7 MR. SMITH: It's all proprietary, yeah. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Right. 9 MR. STEPHENS: But the provision for the PDF 10 would be acceptable. The only concern there is if 11 it's made public information, then a homeowner could 12 get this information or a business could get this 13 information. And trying to do the right things, they 14 could bypass safeties, which we are required to have. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So what would you be 16 putting in your PDF? 17 MR. STEPHENS: Just the contact information, 18 who to contact, the instructions for how to enter the 19 service mode in the controller. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 21 MR. SMITH: Or maybe some additional -- we 22 have to pull up some of the high temperature

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 literature, because you're looking at a lot of certain 2 things, so we're going to get those -- where to pull 3 them out at, what to bypass high limit-wise to run the 4 test. 5 MR. KOJAK: Some of the equipment has it all 6 internal, like some of the things that we have seen is 7 there is a remote control and you have to hit a series 8 of buttons in order to access the service mode, which 9 then you can put in the test mode, which then you can, 10 you know, force things to do the things it's not 11 designed to do, but you have to do for tests. 12 So those are the kinds of things that need 13 to be in those PDFs. And every manufacturer is 14 different. There could be dip switches, it can be 15 software, it can be, you know, already reprogramming 16 with this sequence of numbers or whatever -- I mean, 17 everyone does everything a little different. I mean, 18 we don't test boilers either, but I'm talking HVAC 19 stuff. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds to me like the 21 PDF should be required for this product, because there 22 is no way you're going to be able to test it. Is that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 okay? 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. If we 3 make the determination that a PDF is required, then I 4 suspect a PDF is going to be required for every 5 product that has those kind of controls, because what 6 you just described would be identical for a furnace if 7 you needed to adjust a control to get a furnace on 8 rate, if you needed to bypass controls to get it on 9 rate. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, the difference I'm 11 hearing is you're saying if you need to do that, you 12 wouldn't have to have this. And what I'm hearing is 13 that for commercial package boilers all of them -- 14 MR. MYERS: No. 15 MS. BARHYDT: -- there's no if. 16 MR. MYERS: Not all of them. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. 18 MR. MYERS: Not all of them. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. SMITH: The higher efficiency is what 21 you have to -- 22 MR. KOJAK: The basic stuff is usually easy

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 to test. When you go to the high efficiencies and 2 there's programs and there's variable speed and things 3 automatically adjusting, that's where you have to have 4 the ability to -- because the testing -- well, at 5 least for HVAC it's steady-state usually except for 6 cyclic testing. But you want the thing to run the 7 same way over a long period of time. But if it's 8 designed a variable capacity blower, you know, it is 9 going to constantly be changing itself, because you're 10 maintaining a condition. 11 So it's designed to reduce the energy 12 consumption by changing itself. You want to bypass 13 that and automatically set it to do the same thing for 14 as long as the test is running. 15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank again. That's not 16 necessarily tied to efficiency. That is tied to 17 control type. We make a condensing boiler that has 18 very rudimentary and simple controls. It's a two 19 stage and it uses -- it doesn't use electronic 20 controls to be able to do that. So you would need 21 that information on that particular condensing boiler, 22 and we make a similar, almost identical water heater.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 We would need that. 2 But if our newer models that are condensing 3 are -- just as you say have variable speed motor 4 controllers and modulating, much more sophisticated, 5 we wouldn't have a problem because of all of our 6 products say come to the manufacturer -- you know, the 7 manufacturer has to do setup. 8 MR. KOJAK: Well, it's just the same thing 9 like dual-stage compressor. It could just be Y1, Y2, 10 you know, wire. You know, you energize Y1 and it's 11 one stage. You do Y2; it's the second speed. So that 12 we wouldn't need a program or -- I mean, we don't need 13 -- I mean, we know what we're doing enough to do that. 14 But when it is, you know, program-driven -- 15 MR. MYERS: How do you even get into the 16 control? 17 MR. KOJAK: Exactly. 18 MR. MYERS: A lot of manufacturers -- ours 19 are customer built for us, so -- 20 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. That's the hard part. 21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 22 guess I want to understand, you want this information

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 because if you do a test you don't want the lab to 2 contact the manufacturer; right? 3 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent possible, we 4 want to be able to buy it and test it. 5 MR. AMRANE: Without -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: And have all of the 7 information we need to actually do it. 8 MR. STEPHENS: Chances are the lab is 9 already going to have the information, because they 10 have already tested our product. 11 MR. KOJAK: That's not true. That's not 12 true. 13 MR. STEPHENS: For the AHRI members. 14 MR. KOJAK: Only if the DOE contracts the 15 same AHRI lab that does the AHRI testing. There's 16 other labs that do not have the AHRI contracts, which 17 can also do the tests, which then they won't have that 18 information or access to it. 19 MR. STEPHENS: But you said in a previous 20 meeting that you -- you said where possible you use 21 the same lab. 22 MR. AMRANE: But what's wrong with the lab

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 contacting the manufacturer to ask for this kind of 2 information if they need this kind of information? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Again, it's a matter of, to 4 the extent possible, we want to just be able to buy 5 the unit, send it to the lab, and have the lab test 6 it. 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And what I'm 8 hearing here and hearing elsewhere in discussions is 9 that increasingly it is just not possible for the 10 advanced products. We would have to change the design 11 philosophy to have some sort of user access to a test 12 book. And I'm not sure that -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: We're not advocating that. 14 What we are saying, though, is that we are fine with 15 the idea of manufacturers providing us the information 16 in the PDFs. But the issue is that -- let's say that 17 the manufacturers sitting at the table provide all of 18 that information up front. 19 They said, "We know there's a chance we 20 might get tested. We want to make sure DOE has all 21 the right information. We are going to provide all of 22 this information up front."

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 Some other company doesn't provide all of 2 the information up front. And we -- the lab calls us, 3 we talk to the lab. Then, we call the company and we 4 talk to the company with the lab, and then the lab 5 goes back and the lab tries to do something and it 6 doesn't work quite right, and then the lab calls us 7 back and we call back the manufacturer. And, believe 8 me, this is not an unrealistic scenario. 9 And meanwhile, we've got a lovely little 10 iterative process going on until the manufacturer 11 figures out a way to make the product meet the 12 standard, because they said, "Oh, we'll tweak this 13 thing a little bit more this way or a little bit more 14 that way, because they are massively testing in-house 15 meanwhile, because believe me this all takes time." 16 And they figured out something that they've 17 never tested before that they have been selling, and 18 they figure out some way to just make it squeak by. 19 It's the kind of thing where if we have companies say 20 up front, "This is how we rated our product; these are 21 all the pieces of information that we use to rate our 22 product" then we can test exactly to what you have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 rated. 2 And we understand that that's a concern for 3 you, and we are trying to accommodate that. But we 4 think that you should tell us up front what those are. 5 But if we make it totally optional, then we are 6 actually incentivizing, not providing us the 7 information. 8 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. So 9 going back to the discussion that we had earlier 10 today, so are you wanting a PDF on that 18-digit model 11 number or that 99-digit model number? 12 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure. My -- 13 MS. MEYERS: But it could be very different 14 with all of the options on what you have to provide as 15 -- testing is -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. You did say 17 18, right? Because we are only going to test the base 18 model. So I don't want the testing instructions of 19 the 99 digits, because I'm not going to test those 20 options. We have already negotiated that. But what I 21 do need information on is how I'm going to test your 22 base model. And there are definitely units out there

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 that we can test without additional information, and 2 there are units that we can't. 3 Did I quiet everyone? 4 For joining the webinar? 5 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the difficulty is, I 6 understand that it's different for different 7 manufacturers and different products. But if we say 8 that it's totally optional, then manufacturers who 9 want to try and game the system have every incentive 10 to not provide the information and try and game it for 11 everything it's worth. And our goal is to have 12 everybody on a level playing field. 13 MR. BALLO: I have a question about this. 14 This is Tim Ballo. I mean, isn't it still just as 15 possible that manufacturers could game the system by 16 providing you information in a PDF that would enable 17 the furnace to -- or the product to be tested in a way 18 that would yield a higher rating? I mean, I don't 19 know that a PDF necessarily in providing -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: So the information in the PDF 21 has to be within the bounds of the test procedure. 22 And it is supposed to reflect what they use to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 actually rate the product. 2 Now, there is flexibility within the test 3 procedures, granted, but it is supposed to be what the 4 manufacturer used to rate the product. And I know you 5 are using AEDMs, but I'm assuming that you're plugging 6 in certain things to come up with your ratings using 7 your AEDMs, and so there are still some assumptions 8 being made. And we're asking for all of that 9 information, so that we can do the tests that you use 10 to rate. 11 And I don't know whether we solved this by 12 requiring a PDF and requiring specific information. I 13 just -- I don't know how to get to a point where we 14 can ensure that we have all of the information to lock 15 down this is really and truly what has been rated and 16 what we can test. 17 I mean, I know that AHRI members provide a 18 huge amount of information to AHRI to make sure AHRI 19 has the information needed to test. 20 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 21 think the problem is that we have such a large 22 difference in the products, just within this category.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 I mean, in Frank's case, with PVI, his PDF would be a 2 blank page; right? 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. If we 4 were required to do that, we would have to pre-think 5 all of the potential combinations that you would have, 6 that you would order, and what the possibilities of 7 setup conditions were, so that we could provide that 8 information. 9 Providing the unlock code, you know, that's 10 -- we are very stingy about, because we don't want to 11 follow the hands of the user. But in terms of 12 providing the unlock code and, "Here's how you adjust 13 the variable speed blower to ramp it up to your rate," 14 those kinds of things, that is relatively simple. But 15 everything that might be needed for every combination 16

-- 17 MS. BARHYDT: For your base model. 18 MR. MYERS: Which can cover a lot of 19 territory, which has the lowest number. So it could 20 be a tremendous number of variables, even within that. 21 So getting a comprehensive list, especially one of the 22 rules that was talked about before when we were

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 discussing this was that if you provide this PDF, 2 providing it gives up your right to the second test. 3 And I know that -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what we agreed 5 to. 6 MR. MYERS: Okay. I certainly thought it 7 was. I know that was discussed at one time. Laura did 8 mention that. What is your belief? If you provide 9 this PDF, you still get to witness the second test? 10 MS. BARHYDT: It wasn't tied to this. There 11 was an agreement that for products that are rated 12 using an AEDM that manufacturers believed needed 13 additional -- would require them to be present, that 14 they were going to be able to mark a certain number of 15 basic models. I'm speaking from recollection here, so 16 -- and that if they selected that model as one of 17 their pre- flagged ones, they would waive their second 18 test. But it wasn't tied to this PDF information; it 19 was tied to the ones that they had flagged. 20 MR. MYERS: Oh. Oh, okay. I made the link. 21 Okay. But going back to my original statement, giving 22 some basics like how you unlock the control, how you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 adjust it on rate, those kind of things are a lot of 2 different models and a lot of different techniques. 3 So it's a tremendous amount of work from -- just the 4 time for you to do that, because we are going to have 5 thousands and thousands of models, basic models. 6 So that's an awful lot of basic models that 7 we will have to provide the information for. And we 8 have some basic models that the efficiency is not 9 affected by using control settings, which would be, 10 "If you have this, if you have that, do that." So the 11 workload is high, but that's doable. But to pre-think 12 everything that they might need, that's not really 13 realistic, not for our product line. 14 But, again, we don't expect to have this 15 problem, but that was -- we require that the factory 16 provide a startup before somebody uses the equipment. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Going 18 back to the revision, comment I made earlier, what 19 happens if a manufacturer, say, goes to a completely 20 different control scheme, or decides, okay, we find 21 out homeowners have this code or somebody has this 22 code and we change this code, and we have to rev the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 document. Do we just send you a new copy or -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Conceptually, I think the 3 answer is yes. Again, it's -- obviously, the details 4 are still to be worked out. But, conceptually, I 5 think the answer to that is yes. If you just have a 6 new version, then -- 7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. With 8 the number of models and variations we're talking 9 about, doing it once as you -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 11 MR. MYERS: -- putting that into rev 12 control, not only has -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: You made it sound like this 14 was such an easy thing. I thought that, well, sure, 15 if you're already doing all of this version control, 16 then that's easy. 17 MR. STEPHENS: But say you're introducing a 18 new control, right? It's phased in over product 19 lines. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. I understand. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Product line 1 uses it on 22 this date; product line 2 uses it --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: We hear a baby, Ashley. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, sorry about that. 3 MALE SPEAKER: We all felt the same way. 4 MR. WHITWELL: I thought it was one of us. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: He doesn't like it on 6 speaker. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So no additional 8 information for commercial package boilers other than 9 possibly some kind of a control scheme. 10 MR. AMRANE: I don't know. And this is just 11 me speaking loudly here, but maybe something that we 12 could consider with AHRI is maybe giving you access to 13 the back end of our directory if you need to have 14 access to additional data. I don't know. It's a 15 possibility, if this is what you're looking at. I 16 don't know. Just trying to be -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Can you speak up just a 18 little? 19 MR. AMRANE: I said that, again, maybe an 20 option could be to let DOE have access to the back end 21 of the AHRI directory, which has additional 22 information that would be helpful for DOE testing.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith. How do we 2 handle European customers that ship the boilers over 3 from overseas that are also DOE -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Again, I am talking about the 5 AHRI remember. I mean, for the rest, I mean, I don't 6 know. I mean, I'm just -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: But it's exactly that kind of 8 thing. I know you collect a lot of information for 9 your members. And if you gave us that information -- 10 but then people who aren't members aren't providing us 11 that information. Do we have a level playing field? 12 Should we be requiring all of the other people to 13 provide us the same sort of information? 14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We 15 are doing that voluntarily with them; right? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 17 MR. STEPHENS: When it goes to the DOE, the 18 word "voluntarily" becomes much more concerning to us. 19 MR. AMRANE: Within AHRI, it's not mandatory 20 either. 21 MS. BARHYDT: It's not mandatory for you 22 either. Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. So -- 2 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Of the 3 things that need to be reported here, should fuel and 4 whether it's steam or hot water, which was -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: That's the product equipment 6 type, I believe. 7 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Fine. It was part of 8 one of the previous slides. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it is. 10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. That's fine. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Let's try the next one, 12 commercial water heaters. Currently, we collect -- 13 well, you can see what we currently collect. I have 14 no idea what you just did. 15 MS. TUCKER: Well, in the last meeting, we 16 took out "measured." 17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. 18 MS. TUCKER: So this is from the last -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. This reflects from the 20 last discussion. 21 MS. TUCKER: Correct. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Did the lab suggest

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 anything for these? 2 MS. TUCKER: Nope. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Nope? Okay. 4 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank. You've got 5 the water heater one correct. 6 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Frank? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: He said we're right. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. STANONIK: I said the water heater slide 10 is correct. That is the information you need. 11 MS. BARHYDT: And so we'll be able to buy it 12 and test it and no issues. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there another page to 14 this? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. STANONIK: Well, assuming you have a 17 laboratory that knows how to put the equipment on 18 rate, but that's a -- that's standard procedure, yeah. 19 It's part of the testing we do. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I have a few notes to add 21 something here. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. You need to add

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 something from the standards. It's the design. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. The design standards 3 need to be in there. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 5 MS. BARHYDT: It's the water heaters and hot 6 water -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm pulling up the -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: -- supply boilers having more 9 than 140 gallons of storage capacity need not meet the 10 standby loss requirement if three different 11 requirements are met -- one, the tank surface area is 12 thermally insulated to R of 12.5 or more, a standing 13 pilot light is not used. And for gas- or oil-fired 14 storage water heaters they have a fire damper or a 15 fan- assisted combustion. Yeah. 16 MR. STANONIK: Those are essentially 17 declarations. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But they're not -- the 19 declaration is not reflected in here right now. 20 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. 21 MS. TUCKER: It's currently not implicit, 22 right. It would be added, so I'll put --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 2 MS. TUCKER: -- on there. 3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We 4 couldn't look at this slide without me, once again -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: I know. You don't like the 6 fact that we have a standard that has an R value in 7 it. 8 MR. KLEISS: Or a measured storage volume 9 with no method of protection. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are test procedure 11 issues. 12 MR. THARP: You've got to ask for a waiver. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't need a waiver from 14 something that there is no method of test; right? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. There's no method 16 specified. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just -- DOE just had -- 18 you're pointing out that DOE has a problem in their 19 regs. 20 MS. MEYERS: So should the word "measured" 21 be removed? 22 MS. BARHYDT: That is the reg, however. The

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 standard is based on measure. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can't remove that. 3 MS. BARHYDT: The test procedure just 4 doesn't specify how exactly you are supposed to 5 measure it. 6 MR. KLEISS: And there's no efficiency 7 metric tied to the storage. There is no standby heat 8 loss measurement. There is nothing -- 9 MS. MEYERS: But you say you still have to 10 do that, because that's what the reg says? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Hold on. I have to get my reg 12 book back. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. So we will only collect 14 that information for where there is an efficiency 15 metric tied to that information. So, Jeff, you are 16 making two different points. We've gone through those 17 over email. So one of them we can correct; the other 18 one, it's part of our standard. 19 MR. KLEISS: I agree, and I appreciate the 20 conversation we've had. Don't want to pass by a slide 21 and there to be assumed agreement. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's more of a template

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 issue than a type of information. We will clarify 2 that, though. 3 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Some of the standards are 5 based on rated, and some of the standards are based on 6 measured, depending on fuel and size. 7 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Electrics are measured, 8 gas and rated. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So the standard is based on 10 measured for some of them, but there's no test 11 procedure for how to measure. 12 MS. MEYERS: So speaking of test procedure, 13 water heater test procedures, Ashley, when might we 14 see that? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's beyond the scope of 16 these negotiations. 17 I'm going to preempt that one. 18 MR. SACHS: Your loyal subjects are waiting. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no doubt. I've 20 gotten a couple of emails this week about it. 21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Just so 22 that there's not a misunderstanding about the --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 measuring the volume. I don't think there is anybody 2 in the industry that has a problem in knowing how to 3 measure the volume. There are several methods you can 4 use. You can weigh empty, weigh full. You can measure 5 the volume you are pouring in. You can measure the 6 volume as you pour it out. And there's calculation 7 methods where, in fact, in our unusual geometries and 8 very large sizes the accuracy and scales, and so 9 forth, it is better to do a detailed analysis of every 10 volume displacement, if there's things inside. 11 So we, as an industry, don't have a problem 12 with doing that. So we can talk about -- I don't 13 think that Jeff actually has a problem, but there is 14 no specification that says you do it by weight, you do 15 it by this, or do it by that. But it's not something 16 that the industry is -- or we need a technique to do 17 that. We all know how to do it. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. Why 20 do you -- the unfired storage tanks, why do you need 21 measured storage volume at all? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Where is here? Hold on just a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 second. 2 MR. STANONIK: If anything, to identify the 3 unit you could I guess ask for the rated storage 4 volume, because, I mean, again, that's how they are 5 marketed. You buy a 100-gallon unfired storage tank, 6 or an 80-gallon, or whatever, but why do you need the 7 measure? 8 MS. BARHYDT: So, Frank, hold on just a 9 second. Corey has got my reg book, and I can't look 10 at it. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, he's right. That's 12 the issue that Jeff was pointing out that we know we 13 need to fix. 14 MR. STANONIK: Okay. 15 MS. MEYERS: So are you okay with removing 16 this bullet from this slide? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you can put - 18 - I think there's a question about whether we should 19 put some type of identifier, whether it be rated 20 storage volumes. I don't think it's a bad thing. But 21 it shouldn't be measured. That's correct. And it 22 should only be for electric.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. The only one we need 2 it for is electric. I was going to -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 4 MR. STANONIK: -- go out and say for 5 purposes of identification of the unfired storage 6 tanks, you probably should ask for rated volume 7 because -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that's fine. 9 MR. STANONIK: That's how you distinguish 10 them. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So you all can see the screen. 12 Did the change Corey just made reflect what you all 13 are discussing? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that's right. 15 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can probably put the 19 same thing on the above one. 20 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Correct. Because the 21 electric you do have to do the measured, so we need to 22 stick with --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Electric should be 2 measured. 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. The 4 rated number for storage tanks, really the only reason 5 that that's needed -- and I think it's worthwhile 6 information to put in -- is if the model, which is -- 7 has to be compliant is a Model 25. You go, "Oh, I'd 8 like to order one of those 25-gallon units." And it's 9 actually a unit, and it's not our model number but it 10 could be, that's a 2,500-gallon unit, you'd like to be 11 able to see that. So I can see where it would make 12 some sense for product selection. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I think you lost me. So were 14 you asking that we change something here? 15 MR. MYERS: No. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. MYERS: No. There is not a test reason 18 on storage tanks to have rated -- you could strike 19 that whole sentence, but there is some reason -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 21 MR. MYERS: -- to have it for unfired storage 22 tanks. There is nothing in the reg that requires the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 volume. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is there some kind of 3 tolerance with the volume that is -- 4 MR. MYERS: Not in storage tanks. 5 MS. BARHYDT: For the water heaters, is 6 there? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There isn't one. 8 MR. MYERS: Not in the performance, no. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else? Any 10 other changes to these? 11 MS. MEYERS: Well, on those 140 gallons -- 12 this is Karen with Rheem. On the 140 gallons and 13 above, is the test required if you are using R12 14 insulation? 15 MS. BARHYDT: You need to have something 16 that shows that it meets. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What test are you referring 19 to? 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I believe 21 that -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I'll just explain.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 For units that have the R volume requirement, while 2 the test -- the method of test isn't actually in the 3 test procedure section, there is a method of test 4 defined in the definitions section. So while the 5 water heater manufacturer may not elect to do an R 6 value test, they do have to have documentation that 7 that R value was determined in accordance with the 8 test design and the definitions. And you can get that 9 from your, you know, foam supplier, or whatever, or 10 insulation supplier. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Along 12 that same line, if we are simply verifying to you that 13 the insulation meets the R value requirement, why do 14 we have to have the storage volume at all? Because 15 that is required under any construction standards. 16 They have a tolerance on that that we would have to be 17 within to have construction safety. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Are you talking about the -- 19 MR. MYERS: What product? 20 MR. STEPHENS: Unfired storage tanks. 21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 discussion Frank -- the other Frank and I just had; 2 right? It would be more just a rated for 3 informational purposes. 4 MR. MYERS: Right. Not part the test. 5 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Part of this is DOE is 6 ultimately going to have to have a certification. 7 They are going to have a list of certified models, and 8 so that's really to identify the models. I mean, how 9 can you distinguish them? 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It will be online. 12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, Frank. Too 13 many Franks being frank. Your model number is going 14 to be included in your basic model list, so the model 15 numbers will already exist. My point earlier is the 16 model number might not be a good place to -- you might 17 get confused as to what volume tank is being ordered 18 if someone was ordering a tank, if DOE was ordering a 19 tank. By giving them the volume it is just helpful, 20 so that they know that model number is going to 21 provide you this rated volume. 22 MR. STEPHENS: I'm pretty sure the price

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 would show the difference. 2 MR. MYERS: So if there's a desire to take 3 it out, I can understand that. I don't -- personally, 4 I don't have a problem with that being in, even though 5 it's not required for any determination. 6 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So I'm still unclear. 7 This is Karen with Rheem. On water heaters and supply 8 boilers having more than 140 gallons, so you're saying 9 if you certify that it's got R12 or above, you still 10 want to know whether the standing pilot is used -- 11 MR. STANONIK: It actually -- this is Frank. 12 It would actually be a standing pilot which is not 13 used. 14 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, okay. That makes sense. 15 MS. TUCKER: Well, it's either yes or no; 16 right? So -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. It's a yes or no 18 question. 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm sorry to be 20 wordsmithing, but I believe the regs prohibit the 21 standing pilot; right? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 MR. SACHS: So why not frame it so the 2 default is consistent with it? 3 MR. MYERS: I believe that -- this is Frank 4 Myers again. I believe the regs say that you don't 5 have to run a standby loss to have -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's not -- 7 MR. MYERS: -- if you have no standing 8 pilot. 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- absolutely prohibited. 10 MR. MYERS: But if you do have a standing 11 pilot, even if you have R12-1/2 and meet the others, 12 you have to run the standby loss test. 13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you, Frank. 14 Now, is that -- this is Harvey again. Is it 15 a fire damper or a flue damper? 16 MR. STANONIK: Flue damper. 17 MS. BARHYDT: The reg says fire damper. 18 MR. STANONIK: Well, that has to be a typo. 19 The ASHRAE requirement I'm pretty sure is flue damper. 20 MR. MYERS: It is. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I didn't write the footnote. 22 Why is everyone looking at me?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 I have never seen that table in my life. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. MYERS: But it is flue damper. There is 4 no such device in the product line. 5 MR. SACHS: Do we need a public meeting 6 process? 7 MS. BARHYDT: I hope not. 8 MR. STEPHENS: We have the "if," but not the 9 "then" on that statement. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Where? 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. For 12 water heaters and hot water supply boilers having more 13 than 140 gallons of storage capacity, whether we list 14 three things, we don't say what happens after that. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no. So it's a -- you make 16 a statement of yes or no, the tank surface area is 17 thermally insulated at 12.5 or more, yes or no; a 18 standing pilot light is used, and yes or no; it has a 19 flue damper or fan-assisted combustion. 20 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 21 MS. BARHYDT: That's it, just yes or no. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually would -- I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 they need to tell you what the R value is. That's a 2 measure. And that has a test standard. 3 MR. MYERS: Ashley, this is -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not a design 5 standard. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I would 7 disagree with that. It's a threshold when you provide 8 the test data on -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a threshold. 10 MR. MYERS: -- on the -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It says R value. 12 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's an efficiency standard. 14 It says R value. 15 MR. MYERS: But it's being -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Minimum R value required, 17 and we have a test for it. 18 MR. MYERS: Ashley, the test is to confirm 19 what your R value is. Once you have that 20 confirmation, there is no further test, there is no 21 further performance. You simply determine whether or 22 not your R value is above -- is R12-1/2 or more. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 the answer, once you have verified your R value, is, 2 yes, I have more, or, no, I don't. There is no 3 performance involved once you have determined that 4 your R value is accurate. 5 MR. STANONIK: Which product are we talking 6 about, the unfired storage tank or the 140 gallons or 7 larger? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 140. 9 MS. BARHYDT: The 140. 10 MR. STANONIK: Okay. The 140 -- these three 11 criteria would have to all be met, simply give the 12 manufacturer the option of not having to run a standby 13 loss test. And so the criteria simply says as long as 14 you're insulated to at least R12-1/2, and you don't 15 have a pilot, and you have either a flue damper or a 16 fan-assisted combustion, you don't have to run the 17 standby loss test or meet the maximum standby loss 18 criteria. It doesn't really ask for, you know, are 19 you R13 or R16? It simply is, is it at least R12-1/2? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's no different than a 21 minimum thermal insulation value for an unfired hot 22 water storage tank.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Yes. 2 MR. MYERS: Correct. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So, Ashley, I think - 4

- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So why would you treat them 6 as different? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ashley, I think this should 8 be a yes or no; right? If they -- if it's 12.5 -- 9 MR. BALLO: But, I mean, every standard has 10 a minimum or a maximum, and you report the number. So 11 if you make a marketing -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 13 MR. BALLO: -- about the R value, I don't -- 14 MR. STANONIK: No, that's not -- 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: But this is just to get them 16 out from -- 17 MS. MEYERS: This is determined by whether 18 you have to run the standby loss test or not. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is just a criteria to - 20

- 21 MS. MEYERS: This is just a criteria on 22 whether you'd run that test or not.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 MR. BALLO: Or whether you meet the standard 2 for standby loss. It's not just the test. 3 MR. MYERS: It's not a test. It's a 4 validation that you meet these requirements. If you 5 meet those requirements, and you don't have the test, 6 you are deemed to have adequate standby loss. 7 MR. BALLO: So you'd meet the standard -- 8 are exempt from the standard. 9 MR. MYERS: Right. 10 MR. BALLO: This is an alternative standard. 11 MR. MYERS: You are exempt from the test. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I guess in my mind, 13 to me, I don't care personally if you have R30 or 14 R12.5. Either way you've met the criteria to not run 15 standby. 16 MR. MYERS: We would only -- the care would 17 only come if it's less than 12.5, in which case the no 18 would say you have to run standby. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And then we would -- 20 you know, the documentation would support what the 21 actual value is. But for this, we just want to know 22 that you've met the criteria.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 MS. BARHYDT: You do or don't have to run 2 the standby test. 3 MR. EISNER: For the more than 140 gallons, 4 do you know to say "rated storage"? Should that be 5 inserted there? 6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sorry. What was that? 7 MR. EISNER: The last bullet -- 8 MR. STANONIK: Again, you -- 9 MR. EISNER: -- rated storage capacity? 10 MR. STANONIK: -- them as individual yes or 11 no. Okay? But, in fact, all three have to be -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: We should probably talk about 13 that. 14 MR. STANONIK: -- met, you know, together. 15 They can't be mixed and matched, so, you know, it may 16 be -- well, however it works out in the form, but 17 basically you have to comply with all three of the 18 criteria. 19 MR. STEPHENS: So what I heard was we are 20 missing a clause in there about not requiring the 21 standby loss. We have the ifs, but not the thens. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 MR. STANONIK: We're talking about what is 2 reported to DOE. The law is the law already. That 3 matters not to this. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Basically, we're going to look 5 at this and we're going to check it. There's not 6 something that you have to report other than just the 7 yeses or no's, and then we check whether or not -- 8 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But if you made all 9 of those conditions, then you don't have to report the 10 standby loss. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I see what you're saying. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Right? 13 MS. BARHYDT: So on the previous -- 14 MR. STEPHENS: That's why we have those -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: -- screen -- 16 MR. STEPHENS: So you answer all of these, 17 and then you -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: -- you're saying that for -- 19 MR. STEPHENS: For the standby loss values. 20 MS. BARHYDT: -- the water heaters and hot 21 water supply boilers having more than 140 gallons, 22 which would either be measured if it's electric or it

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 would be rated if it's gas or oil, then you do not 2 have to report the standby loss -- 3 MR. STEPHENS: Correct. 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- if those other criteria are 5 met. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 7 MS. MEYERS: Correct. 8 MR. STEPHENS: And right now, the way it's 9 written, it doesn't read that. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So on Slide 19, add "measure 11 standby loss not required." 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you put it in the top 13 bullet, like, if these three conditions are met, then 14 no standby -- 15 MR. STEPHENS: Yeah. I would say after the 16 comma put "are not required to meet standby loss if 17 these three -- or is it all of these three? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, all three. 19 MR. MYERS: The way it's written now, some 20 have to be no and some have to be yes. You have to -- 21 this will tell you whether you have -- 22 (Simultaneous speaking.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. The second item 2 would have to read "whether no standing pilot is 3 used." 4 MS. TUCKER: But it's a yes or no question. 5 So it's asked in the affirmative. That's -- 6 MR. MYERS: Then you have to change your 7 header, "If yes to the following." 8 MR. TUCKER: Ah, right. Sorry. 9 MR. MYERS: That's going to have to be no. 10 MR. TUCKER: You're correct. Thank you. 11 MR. MYERS: So you have to handle it one way 12 or the other. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We have a request for a 14 lunch break. 15 MR. EISNER: Do you want to take lunch now, 16 or go to the next slide? 17 MS. BARHYDT: I heard a really rapid second. 18 MR. SACHS: What is our prognosis for the 19 duration of this meeting? 20 MS. BARHYDT: How many more -- we're just 21 going to keep plugging away at CRE and HVAC 22 certification information.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 MR. EISNER: Come back at quarter to 1:00, 2 make that 10 to 1:00. 3 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.) 4 MR. EISNER: All right. Can we get started? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We had a request to go 6 back to the screen and look at what is public and not 7 public. And I looked at the website, so I could 8 actually verify it. And I've marked up there which 9 pieces of information are on the website and which 10 pieces are not. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Is this different from 12 before? 13 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure. 14 MS. TUCKER: It is slightly. That OHA stuff 15 was not -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: It wasn't listed before? 17 MR. BALLO: So why wouldn't the AEDM be 18 public? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Right now, it is not. That is 20 a statement of what is currently public. 21 MS. DANE: But if you use a lot of design 22 information to make your AEDM, I don't think you would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 want that public. That is intellectual property. We 2 would -- this is Mary from Traulsen. We wouldn't -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead. 4 MS. DANE: What I was going to say, I mean, 5 you might use all kinds of different factors to come 6 up with the AEDM. You wouldn't want that made public, 7 because somebody could take that and go through and 8 figure out how you designed your product. 9 MS. BARHYDT: I think what Tim is just 10 saying is whether or not you used an AEDM, not -- 11 MS. DANE: Oh. As long as it's a yes/no, I 12 don't care. But why is it important? 13 MR. BALLO: What I actually asking was, if 14 you use AEDM-A, AEDM-B, AEDM-C, why was that 15 sensitive? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MS. DANE: Why is it important? 18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 19 National. I would agree that -- with Mary that that's 20 not part of the issue either. But I think even in the 21 way that you've developed your AEDMs, how many you're 22 using, things are -- that's fine for the Department to

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 know, but for a competitor that could give them 2 information how your design or how you developed your 3 products and commonalities and things that I don't 4 think are required for public or, you know, 5 consumption, and I think they have factors that, you 6 know, should be kept between the Department and the 7 company. 8 MR. BALLO: So how I guess it could be 9 important is, you know, you have certain consequences 10 that are linked to an AEDM rating being shown to be 11 invalid for a particular AEDM. And the Department is 12 not interested in enforcing that section, so it would 13 still be available to the public to ensure that the 14 AEDMs are -- that an AEDM that has been invalidated or 15 shown incorrect through testing be withdrawn in favor 16 of a different AEDM, or to enforce that process. 17 MS. DANE: I'm confused. So are you saying 18 that the -- if we had one thing disproven and there 19 were 10 more models that were hooked to that, Laura's 20 group wouldn't go after those and the public would 21 have to? 22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. My

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 concern is the exact opposite. We, as manufacturers, 2 have the liberty to change the AEDM whenever we see 3 fit; right? So if we have a customer out there -- and 4 we all have them as manufacturers, if they're watching 5 -- oh, that AEDM number changed. Oh, that AEDM number 6 changed. They're going to be on the phone calling us 7 up every time anything changes. Why did that change? 8 Why did that change? Why did that change? And we're 9 going to have to have the -- we've going to have to 10 have something photocopied up on the wall in front of 11 us, so every time they call we answer the exact same 12 way. And it's going to cause a lot more hassles to 13 everybody involved than it's going to have any benefit 14 to -- 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 16 guess your concern, I mean, if you test a unit and it 17 doesn't meet the standard efficiency that is listed in 18 the DOE website, then you contact DOE, and then DOE 19 will take the appropriate action. 20 MR. BALLO: That's assuming we have an 21 attentive DOE, which -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: I'm used to it. He does that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 on a regular basis. 2 MR. BALLO: Let me give you another example. 3 So we have riders through Congress that say DOE can't 4 work on lamps, can't work on ceiling fans. What if 5 there's a rider through Congress that says DOE can't 6 enforce, you know, as to a particular product? I'm 7 not saying that all of this is oppressing me. I'm 8 just trying to understand, because I do have some 9 concerns for things that could happen, that could 10 provide a reason why I'd really want to see some of 11 this information. 12 So it's helpful to understand what your 13 concerns are, and I guess I'm okay with this, given 14 that there is -- it sounds like there's -- 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'll be a 16 little bit more blunt than Tim. There is a concern 17 and some record that some groups in Congress, were 18 they to be ascended, would want to take apart entire 19 standards programs as well as many other things. It 20 would be collateral damage. It's in the noise. 21 A lot of people watching state legislatures 22 and watching some things that happen in Congress do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 get real worried whether or not we trust Laura and 2 John and whoever is above them. Whoever is going to 3 be above them next time is much less certain. It is 4 something that frightens a lot of people in the 5 environmental community, so that may be helpful as 6 context. 7 You all are supposed to be responsive to 8 what the people on the top floor say. We have seen 9 what that means. Just put it back far enough in time 10 to not offend anybody who is active now. 11 One of the first things that our good friend 12 Mr. Gingrich's troops did was to take apart the Office 13 of Technology Assessment, which had been an enormously 14 effective organization in providing requested 15 technical information to Congress, and there were a 16 lot of people who did not want to have objective 17 technical information. 18 So I think that's a context and shouldn't 19 prevent us from -- what's the expression, going about 20 our appointed rounds. But it's a real fear, and I 21 think it's a real fear of reputable manufacturers who 22 depend on the level playing field as well. It's not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 DOE as prosecutor, but the DOE role as umpire, umpire 2 with a little bit more authority than AHRI. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 4 guess my question is, if we're meeting the efficiency 5 levels, then it's a moot point; right? 6 MR. SACHS: Right. 7 MR. STEPHENS: And if we're not meeting it, 8 your concern is if something happens and the 9 regulations change, and then the manufacturers no 10 longer meet the efficiency levels. Some manufacturers 11 no long meet the efficiency -- 12 MR. SACHS: I was in a conversation at lunch 13 at which it came up that there was a class of products 14 that was being sold widely, imported products, that 15 certainly were not meeting either capacity or 16 efficiency standards. And in the years it might take 17 DOE acting on its own to resolve that, the market may 18 have totally shifted to those low-priced commodity 19 products. 20 There are inherent limits on what -- the 21 rate of action DOE can take, so it -- I'm just trying 22 to say that a little bit of paranoia may be healthy,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 but that's not to say that I would be able to 2 interpret an AEDM or want to. So I don't know what 3 the answer is, but I just want to help a little bit 4 with context. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. But 6 unregulated product coming in from overseas wouldn't 7 have an AEDM. 8 MR. SACHS: Oh, this is true. But as I say, 9 it's just -- it's context in terms of rates at which 10 enforcement happened. And if you then lay on top of 11 that the fear of an administration that wants to spend 12 all of its time on other things -- and we have seen 13 that at DOE -- a little bit of paranoia happens. 14 So Tim has said he's satisfied, I think. So 15 if he's satisfied, he's a lot better lawyer than I am. 16 I hope. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Are you good? 18 MS. TUCKER: Yep. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. CRE. 20 MS. TUCKER: Did we finish water heaters? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. I thought we had finished 22 water heaters before lunch. Did we not?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 MS. TUCKER: I don't think voted, but I 2 don't know if there's -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we've voted on 4 anything so far. 5 MS. TUCKER: Right. But nothing else has 6 been added. Nothing has changed. I just wanted to 7 make sure before we move on. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MS. TUCKER: This we didn't -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sorry. 11 MS. TUCKER: We didn't really add anything, 12 so -- 13 MR. EISNER: We did. We added to what else 14 should be submitted. 15 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. But the regs already 16 required it. That doesn't -- this doesn't actually 17 require you to ask for a vote, right, because the regs 18 require it already. 19 MS. BARHYDT: No. We added that. Yeah. As 20 a submission, we added that. 21 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: But we haven't voted on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 anything yet, so -- 2 MS. TUCKER: Okay. You want to go on? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Okay. So CRE -- so I'm 4 going to introduce a concept when we talk about CRE 5 that we haven't discussed on the prior slides. But if 6 in the context of us talking about CRE you want to go 7 back and revisit some of the other products, we can do 8 that. 9 Current regulations require reporting of 10 maximum daily energy consumption and chilled or frozen 11 compartment value. Well, there are several slides for 12 CREs. So the metrics for CREs are based on 13 consumption of the unit. And we've heard concerns 14 about the reporting volume due to a variety of sizes 15 of the units. 16 One way to reduce reporting burden would be 17 to allow some kind of grouping. We do this for 18 distribution transformers, and we allow it for 19 external power supplies. Those are the only two 20 products where we have this. But it goes from the 21 basic model, which is a group of individual models, 22 and then it actually allows one more level of grouping

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 beyond that. 2 And we don't normally do this, but we could 3 -- to me, CRE actually is one that somewhat lends 4 itself to this based on my understanding of the way 5 they report it to AHRI. Let's say you had a four 6 foot, eight foot, 12 foot case, you would report your 7 smallest size, your largest size, you would report the 8 consumption of the smallest, the largest, and probably 9 a rate or something. 10 Now, the rate is not our metric, and it is 11 not one of the regulated values. But that would give 12 us some context for everything in between the middle - 13 - from the smallest to the largest. So that would be 14 a possibility to help you reduce your reporting 15 burden. And I think that's what they do for AHRI is 16 they report the -- 17 MR. AMRANE: We have very limited reporting. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Very little reporting. 19 MR. AMRANE: Yes. So I -- as far as AHRI. 20 I don't know you got it from, but I don't think that 21 we -- we have something on the directory, but we have 22 very little reporting on CREs. So --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. This is Jeff Bauman from 3 National. I think the products that are on there are 4 closed, not the open type, four foot, five foot. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. 6 MR. BAUMAN: If Ron is still on the line, he 7 could probably talk to this. I mean, what you're 8 describing to me was you're doing that. That's what I 9 envisioned the AEDM doing and being able to handle it 10 that way. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So the AEDM generates the 12 values. 13 MR. BAUMAN: Correct. 14 MS. BARHYDT: And then the question is, so 15 let's say you have low, medium, and high consumption; 16 four foot, low, medium, high; eight foot, low, medium, 17 high; 12 foot. 18 MR. BAUMAN: In my AEDM. 19 MS. BARHYDT: In your AEDM. And it 20 generates all those various numbers. 21 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh. 22 MS. BARHYDT: To me, it would be odd for you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 to group low, low, low together, because you are 2 grouping a four and a 12, and I'm seriously doubting 3 that your 12 is going to meet the standard for a four. 4 So you couldn't report your four at the 12 consumption 5 value. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Right. I do my four, my six, 7 my eight, my 10, my 12. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So you've got all of 9 those. 10 MR. BAUMAN: That would be in a potentially 11 sub-AEDM where -- you know, one AEDM for that -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So don't -- 13 MR. BAUMAN: -- low volume. 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- think about the AEDM. 15 Think about how you're actually grouping them for 16 ratings. So -- 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So you are not going to be 19 able to group them across the links, because that 20 conceptually isn't going to make any sense, to group a 21 four foot with a 12 foot, in terms of consumption. So 22 low, medium, high consumption, you could just rate

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 everything at the highest consumption. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If they're -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: So you could do a basic model 4 this way. 5 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So then the question is, would 7 you want to be able to do a different kind of grouping 8 where you could do this way instead by length. So my 9 low efficiency is always at TDA per foot with this 10 being the consumption of the four foot -- 11 MR. BAUMAN: Per foot per -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: -- and the consumption of the 13 12 foot. Would you want to be able to group them that 14 way? 15 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 16 National. We really would not need that. I mean, I 17 can see for some of the people that have brought up 18 open case manufacturers it is -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: It's the difference between -- 20 if you group them low, medium, high for -- 21 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 22 MS. BARHYDT: -- each one -- in my example,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 you'd have three basic models. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh. 3 MS. BARHYDT: But if you wanted to say 4 across -- but that's where there's only three links. 5 But then, if you have 12 links and 15 links, you start 6 getting a lot of different ratings. And then you are 7 forced to rate everything at your highest consumption, 8 which you may or may not want to do. So would you 9 want to be able to sort of bring the whole thing 10 within -- 11 MR. SHEBIK: Laura, this is Ron Shebik with 12 Hussmann. You are kind of dropping out, but if I 13 understand what you're saying, you would base 14 everything off the linear foot rating of the case. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Not exactly. 16 MR. SHEBIK: Off the worst case. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So you would report minimum, 18 maximum, and TDA per foot. And so we would expect 19 that anything we selected you have effectively 20 certified that if we multiply that foot length by the 21 TDA you've certified that is the certified 22 consumption.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 MR. BAUMAN: So you're saying your 2 consumption -- this is Jeff Bauman from National -- 3 your consumption would be per foot also. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And we'd multiply it by the 5 number of feet. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. So you'd rate it as a 7 TDA per foot and -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe I'm not using the right 9 -- maybe TDA per foot is not the right -- 10 MR. BAUMAN: Well, that -- your TDA would be 11 your volume or your area -- that is your display area, 12 so that would tell you how physically big your case 13 is. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm not using the 15 right word. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: But you would break down your 18 consumption by foot, and you'd be reporting 19 consumption by foot. 20 MR. BAUMAN: Consumption per foot, yeah. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And we could multiply it out. 22 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron with Hussmann 2 again. So to put it into, I guess, terms you can 3 visualize, if you had a four-foot, eight-foot, and 12- 4 foot open display case, remote case, one with no 5 lights, one with fluorescent lights, and one with LED 6 lights, if you were to look at the -- on a per linear 7 foot basis, the BTU hour load per foot with a 8 fluorescent light that would be your worst case, and 9 then you could apply that to all your scenarios. 10 MR. BAUMAN: Or you could rate them as your 11 low, medium, high, or you could rate the three of them 12 separately, but then still your foot -- I think what 13 Laura is talking about is whatever your worst -- if 14 your 12 footer was your worst consumption per foot, 15 you know, when you divide your 12 footer total 16 consumption by the TDA, the area, and you do your four 17 footer and divide it by the area, you have to come up 18 with what the worst one is, and then all of those 19 units lengthwise have to meet that. 20 So you could have to overrate some models 21 if, you know, you didn't have a direct linear 22 relationship, which you're not likely to, but if you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 can fit that into something that makes sense and it 2 reduces your burden, I wouldn't have a problem with 3 it. I don't know that everybody would want to use it, 4 but I think it's a good option. And I know there was 5 a lot of concern from people with open cases as far as 6 because all the specialty versions they get into, by 7 the inch, by the half, you know. 8 MR. AMRANE: But you're talking about -- 9 what is occurring with AHRI, you're talking about the 10 reporting; right? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 12 MR. AMRANE: But as far as certifying, I 13 mean -- 14 MR. BAUMAN: Well, you rated it. 15 16 MR. AMRANE: -- do you have to -- okay. I 17 guess when Ron was talking before he said that he is 18 planning to test, to provide a rating for every 19 possible, I guess, case. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And so the question 21 really is for the CRE manufacturers, is this something 22 you would find useful? And I'm just throwing it out

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 there, and we won't vote on it or just to think about 2 how it may or may not help. And you would still have 3 the option to just certify based on a basic model. It 4 wouldn't be instead of, although the products where we 5 do this we allow the option. 6 So there's one more catch to this, of 7 course. 8 MR. BAUMAN: And Ashley's not even here. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So where we do this -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm here. 11 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you certify based on a 12 basic model, and we find a model non-compliant, it 13 wipes out the whole basic model. If you certify based 14 on this massive grouping, if we find one non15 compliant, it wipes out the whole grouping. 16 MR. BAUMAN: But you could also do -- again, 17 Jeff Bauman from National. You could also do that 18 using AEDMs. If you decided that your fit of your 19 models was so much that you didn't, you could use an 20 AEDM to do a similar type of thing, but it doesn't 21 give you as much -- maybe not give you as much 22 flexibility in the ratings per foot or whatever.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 MS. BARHYDT: So my expectation is that you 2 are going to be doing this with your AEDM. You are 3 going to be coming up with the numbers from the AEDMs 4 anyway. 5 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a question of relieving 7 the paperwork burden of filling out the -- 8 MR. BAUMAN: How many models. 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- form and how much you have 10 to actually fill out to submit to the Department. 11 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 12 MS. DANE: Do you have some kind of slide 13 put together that explains that? 14 MS. BARHYDT: No. 15 Okay. That -- 16 MR. BAUMAN: From the discussion -- again, 17 Jeff Bauman from National. In the discussions that 18 we've had, going back to 2010, and some of the real 19 concerns that are -- you know, I think this would be a 20 good tool potentially for some manufacturers. It 21 wouldn't affect us directly, but I think that would 22 fit well with some of -- how the products are, you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 know, sold in some cases, especially more specialty 2 items. And I do think it would be a good item for 3 consideration. 4 We can go back and talk to the manufacturers 5 at AHRI group and other groups and see if there is any 6 concerns or objections. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. BAUMAN: I can't -- you know, from the 9 other side of it, I can't really see any objections to 10 it other than somebody in manufacturing may find it 11 works for them and some it doesn't. So I think -- I 12 appreciate the opportunity to even consider that, to 13 make it easier on the -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: I will tell you that where we 15 have -- go ahead, Charlie. 16 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron from Hussmann. I 17 don't have an opposition to it. I mean, I think it's 18 a good -- some people may be in favor of that, so I 19 wouldn't oppose it. But as an option -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it would be an option. 21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Charlie.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 MR. HON: For our manufacturing process, 2 this has no value whatsoever, because we really do not 3 make continuous cases. But I can understand if you're 4 making continuous cases you would have to be grouping 5 them as far as all -- you know, a certain height, so 6 that you have commonality amongst door sizes and 7 things like that, but it would be a viable option for 8 most companies. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So I will make up a 10 hypothetical and so something that will kind of 11 demonstrate the idea, and I'll put that up on the 12 SharePoint. And I can -- 13 MS. DANE: Thank you. 14 MR. SHEBIK: Thank you. 15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One more 16 thing on the slide that is actually up on the screen. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 18 MR. HON: There are three different 19 temperature ratings that are involved, not just two. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Can you be more specific? 21 MS. TUCKER: Do you mean this? 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think it's pretty -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1

- 2 MR. HON: Go back one screen. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ice cream is -- 4 MR. HON: You don't have ice cream included. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a separate -- 6 MR. HON: Which is a low temperature freezer 7 application. 8 MS. BARHYDT: No. Ice cream is on the next 9 slide. 10 Do you see it now? Corey changed the slide. 11 MR. HON: Okay. 12 MR. EISNER: I thought there were three 13 changes we had made on the first slide of this 14 grouping. One, I know we had talked about it, up at 15 the top where we -- this is the one that says self16 contained commercial refrigerators. We had talked 17 about non-transparent solid doors I thought. We had 18 also talked about taking the S off on solids, solid 19 doors. And we had talked about the leading -- the 20 first time you put it up you had the old -- 21 MS. TUCKER: I just changed to the old 22 slides.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Because we had taken the 2 word "average" out, too. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I just wanted to check 4 to make sure. So we didn't do the non-transparent, 5 then. 6 MS. TUCKER: No, because solid is -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. By definition, non8 transparent. 9 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I think Harvey didn't like 11 solid. 12 MR. SACHS: No, I didn't. 13 MR. SMITH: It's in the regs, then. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I think it's in the 15 statute. 16 MR. SACHS: Shows what happens when you let 17 legislators do things. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you got those 19 updates? 20 MS. TUCKER: Uh-huh. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is there any other 22 information that the test labs would need universally

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 to run the test procedure on any of this equipment. 2 MR. HON: There's a mistake on that slide. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Charlie. 4 MR. HON: It's minus 15; it's no longer 5 minus five. 6 MR. WEBER: The operating temperature range 7 starts at minus five. It's the rating temperature 8 that's minus 15. The ice cream freezer started at 9 minus five. 10 MS. TUCKER: So I don't need to change 11 anything; right? 12 MR. WEBER: No, you don't need to change it. 13 MS. TUCKER: Thank you. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense to you, 15 Charlie? 16 MR. HON: I did not hear a word he said. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the operating 18 temperature range is less than or equal to minus five. 19 The rating temperature is minus 15. So the test is 20 done at minus 15. 21 MR. HON: Okay. So you're basically saying 22 less than 32 zero minus five, less than minus five is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 minus 15. Is that -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 3 MR. HON: Okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on these slides? 5 Anything else we should think about and -- 6 MR. WEBER: I had a comment, actually. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 8 MR. WEBER: This is Collin Weber from 9 Navigant. But where it talks about reporting maximum 10 daily energy consumption, you actually just want that 11 to be their daily energy consumption, because maximum 12 daily energy consumption is a reserve term in the 13 regs, which refers to the allowable standard level. 14 So if they were reporting that, they would actually 15 just be reporting what they are allowed to use. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else? 17 MR. HON: Have we covered service over 18 counter yet? I haven't seen them. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Were they not in -- 20 MS. TUCKER: I pulled everything out of -- 21 directly out of there. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 MS. BARHYDT: What, Ashley? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not in there. He's 3 right. 4 MR. AMRANE: Congress passed a relief 5 station at the end of -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. AMRANE: -- December, so I don't know if 8 we have committed to this yet or -- 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Not yet. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So we need to talk about them, 11 though. Go ahead and -- 12 MR. HON: If they're not here, we can talk 13 behind their back. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So I don't have that because 15 it's not in this CAR. 16 MR. AMRANE: It's a TDA, you know, metric as 17 well, so -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: So would it be the same as one 19 of the ones that is already up there? Or would it be 20 added to that long list on the other slide? Switch to 21 the other slide. 22 MR. HON: No. Very few of these are -- some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 of them would fit into that category as continuous 2 cases. Quite a few others would be self-contained; 3 they are built that way. So you pretty much have to 4 be in both. 5 MR. AMRANE: What was passed by Congress at 6 the end of last -- with AHRI was only to self-contain. 7 We had already addressed previously, and there was no 8 issue with that. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, you mentioned TDA 10 for service over counter. So I was wondering if it's 11 the same sort of information that we should be 12 collecting, since it's based on the TDA concept. Does 13 that make sense, Charlie? 14 MR. HON: I couldn't understand what was 15 said. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So if you look at the 17 information we collect for remote condensing -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Laura, the answer to 19 your question is yes. It says that we need to change 20 the boxes and we need to change the beginning part. 21 The information is similar. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Similar or the same?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying to pull up the 2 energy bill right now, just to confirm. But we can 3 assume it's the same for now, and I can go back. I 4 mean -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and bring it up in a 7 minute when I have a chance. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No problem. 9 MR. HON: The only difference in the bill is 10 the fact that we use TDA rather than internal volume 11 to calculate the numbers. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But we already have 14 that in certain cases, too. So that would be taken 15 care of, I think. 16 MR. HON: It's not a big deal at all. I 17 just wanted to make sure we covered it in the process. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. No, that was a good 19 catch. One other thing, and I just want to make sure 20 that this is clear. I think the slide does cover 21 this, in my opinion, but it has rating temperature in 22 there, and we do have a number of manufacturers for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 certain equipment that have weavers, and so -- 2 weavings for -- weavers for alternative rating 3 temperatures, which specifically are the lowest 4 product application temperature. 5 So I just want to make sure you guys agree 6 that that covers either the rating temperatures that 7 are specified in the regs or if someone has a weaver 8 at the alternative temperature. 9 MR. HON: That makes sense to me. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense, Mary? 12 You look a little -- 13 MS. DANE: Yeah. It's -- 14 MR. HON: I'm fine with that. 15 MS. DANE: -- fine. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. Anything else on 17 CRE? 18 MR. KOJAK: I just wanted to ask a question. 19 None of this covers the biomedical freezers, does it? 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think so. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: They're not covered at all. 22 The definition excludes --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 MS. BARHYDT: There's a medical exclusion. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. The definition 3 excludes them specifically. 4 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. SACHS: Unless you put a coin slot on 7 them, so they can be beverage vendors. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. PTACs. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, hey, Laura, before you 10 guys go on, I actually have a question real quick for 11 the CRE manufacturers. Yesterday, we talked about the 12 -- basically, the heaters that go on the glass and the 13 different types of heaters that there could be and 14 that is going to affect the way they're tested. Is 15 there -- do you guys believe that there would be a 16 reason that you guys should submit information about 17 the type of heaters or at least whether they are 18 manually controlled or automatically controlled, or 19 something like that? 20 Such that DOE would make sure it has the 21 right option for testing, or everyone would know how 22 it should be tested? Since we did differentiate that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 yesterday? 2 MR. HON: The test standard covers that. So 3 they'd be on, unless otherwise -- you know, unless 4 otherwise noted. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just wondering, so -- 6 I'm just wondering if there is ever a case where it 7 looks like an on or off switch, but there's really 8 like this -- you know, if you hit a certain thing 9 twice, or you hit it three times, it has different 10 modes and it's not something that may be necessarily 11 obvious by just looking at it. We may run across 12 that. 13 It just -- it would be helpful to elect 14 something that's variably controlled or if something 15 has different settings, et cetera. I don't know what 16 the best way to describe it is; I'm just thinking 17 that, you know, are there any designs that it is not 18 completely obvious by looking at the unit that 19 something may be incorrectly does it. 20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 21 National. I think if there is something that's -- and 22 part of the conversation on the controls was whether

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 it's something that is user selectable or user 2 adjustable. If it's user adjustable, user selectable, 3 that should be covered in the operations manual or 4 apparent from looking at the product. 5 I don't really see -- I don't see a lot of 6 that, but, you know, not that -- as we get out into 7 the future that there's not going to be more 8 intelligent control and stuff like that built into 9 what these are. But I don't see really a benefit to 10 including that, because, again, it should be apparent 11 or it should be covered in the operation instructions. 12 And I think it gives potential competitors a 13 shopping list of what -- how manufacturers are 14 building if they come up with some kind of technology 15 to do that, to have to declare that, versus, you know, 16 having that kind of technology built in. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 18 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have never 19 seen one yet, but there are certainly capabilities to 20 do that in some of the new controllers that are sold. 21 So that's one of those issues that -- the same way you 22 are not going to see it, the customer is not going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 see it, because the customer is not going to be 2 turning it on. 3 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, I don't think it's 4 something that would affect how they test the unit. I 5 don't think they would need to know that to test the 6 unit properly, that there's -- you know, if it's a 7 control that is built in somehow automatically. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I'm actually thinking 9 of -- oh, sorry. Go ahead. 10 MR. BAUMAN: Just that it -- you know, I 11 think the question was, is there something that they 12 would -- you know, information that is needed there as 13 far as being able to conduct a test properly. I don't 14 think it's -- I don't think it would be required for 15 that. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can say, I can think of a 17 couple of examples. Let's put it this way. And I'm 18 not thinking about something that has very 19 sophisticated controls. I'm thinking of something 20 that has user-selectable controls, but where the 21 maximum setting may not be one that is easily user22 selectable or figured out. Let's put it that way.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 But, I mean, those apparently are anomalies. 2 MR. HON: Well, the one thing we don't want 3 to do, Ash, is get into a situation like the auto 4 industry did, which has, you know, a 10- or 15-day 5 delay in the class heaters turning on. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And by no means do I 7 mean your control scheme or anything like that. I was 8 just more thinking of something very simple. But no 9 worries. 10 MR. HON: Okay. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're actually going 12 to go to the air-cooled. I think some of the stuff we 13 are going to discuss here probably is applicable to a 14 lot of the different types of products. So, and we 15 already have it on this slide, so we'll start on this 16 slide and then we'll go backwards. 17 MR. KOJAK: Can I ask a question real quick? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 19 MR. KOJAK: With the CRE stuff, were you 20 guys just talking about instructions for controls, or 21 are you talking about any instructions to conduct 22 testing?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 MS. BARHYDT: Instructions to conduct 2 testing. 3 MR. KOJAK: So the only thing I can really 4 think of is if it's a remote case and you're supposed 5 to charge it to a certain subcool or superheat. And 6 there's a special place you want that taken, that 7 temperature taken, on your unit, that should be 8 designated, because I wouldn't think that would be in 9 a manual. It might be; I don't know. But that's the 10 only kind of thing I could think of, instruction -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: And the test procedure doesn't 12 specify it? 13 MR. KOJAK: No. 14 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. It 15 should be included in the PDF you provide with the 16 instructions. You know, remote units are going to 17 have some instructions, more extensive instructions 18 than, obviously, a self-contained unit. 19 MR. KOJAK: Yeah, exactly. 20 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. 21 MR. KOJAK: Self-contained is more -- 22 MR. BAUMAN: Taking the pressures and flows

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 gap. 2 MR. HON: That would be a standard for a 3 normal installation of product, and they would see it 4 on the instructions at that point. 5 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 6 MR. HON: For our cases, anyway. 7 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Wouldn't the charging 9 instructions be in everyone's installation manuals? 10 MR. BAUMAN: Should be, yes. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: "Should" is a word that has 12 been used a lot when it comes to these manuals, I've 13 noticed. 14 MR. KOJAK: Because, you know, some of the 15 times we see the manuals they might be a manual that 16 covers different models, and it's confusing or it 17 might be an outdated instruction and there's -- I 18 mean, instruction manuals you know are not always 19 perfectly up to date for everything, so I'm just 20 saying. 21 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. And I think, again, you 22 would hope to be covered -- should be covered in the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 PDFs that is provided with it. But, if not, you know, 2 they would have to go back and tell you guys that they 3 don't have enough information or whatever to -- but as 4 a matter of practice, you know, the remote units would 5 generally have that kind of -- all of the information 6 needed to get it started up right. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think what Jeff just 8 said is very important, because what we're trying to 9 do here is everything that should be in there, if 10 there is a reason why it's not we're trying to just 11 flesh all of that out product by product. So for Mike 12 -- and if the other Mike we here, too, I mean, it's 13 more important for you and Judd to speak up at things 14 that when you test these things the stuff that you had 15 to call DOE about, or the manufacturer about, that's 16 what we want to settle. I'm not sure if that was made 17 clear earlier. It wasn't to me. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, it seems to me that 19 based on the description for the remote cases that the 20 charge should be required. You should be providing 21 that, because I can tell you, we get manuals that -- 22 MR. BAUMAN: I've written a lot of manuals.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 I know what you mean. It's -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: So it seems to me like that is 3 something that we probably should require submission 4 of, this is what the charge is for the rating. 5 MR. KOJAK: Well, it can't be necessarily 6 the charge. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. It wouldn't be the 8 charge. It would be -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, help me out with 10 the wording here, but -- 11 MR. KOJAK: You would either charge to the 12 subcool/superheat at a certain location, because you 13 can be using -- the condenser portion might not be 14 supplied by them anyway, so the amount of charge can 15 be different. So you have to charge it to, you know, 16 how the case is running. So that's -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Basically, you're 18 saying you need charging instructions -- 19 MR. KOJAK: Exactly. 20 MR. WHITWELL: -- included -- 21 MR. BAUMAN: Not a charge amount, but 22 instructions on how to charge -- where you check the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 temperature and the pressures at to calculate. 2 MR. KOJAK: Because some manufacturers want 3 you to take those temperatures in different places. 4 MR. BAUMAN: Uh-huh. 5 MR. KOJAK: So, and that makes a difference. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 7 MR. KOJAK: To make sure it's charged 8 properly. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And we'll work on some 10 language and bring that to the next meeting. 11 MR. KOJAK: And that is just remote cases, 12 right? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Remote. 14 MR. KOJAK: Don't let all the gas out of the 15 self-contained charge -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. KOJAK: You can just vent it, though, or 18 something. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Air-cooled? 20 (Simultaneous speaking.) 21 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Just as a quick 22 comment, this presentation is different than what was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 at the last meeting, correct? Is that -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Slightly. 3 MR. THARP: Will this be posted to the 4 website soon? 5 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So what's up there 7 right now is what is -- the regulations currently 8 require, except for the red language is some 9 clarification of what we think those requirements 10 mean, because it is not actually specific in terms of 11 it being the rated cooling capacity. 12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. One 13 of the comments that we made last meeting was the -- 14 in your first bullet, we specified three-phase, 15 because we are talking about some three-phase units 16 less than 17 65,000 BTU. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. The 19 rated capacity, are you saying in gross or net, or do 20 you need to be specific? I don't know. I really 21 don't know. 22 MR. THARP: If it's rated, it's net, because

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 rated is net. And, actually, I was thinking about it, 2 rated is actually implied because -- for all of these 3 metrics because SER, HSPF, those are actually rated; 4 right? All those values for capacity or efficiency 5 that are given should be assumed to be rated, because 6 we are not going to list exactly what we test, since 7 we test so much higher than what we rate. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So following on that 9 thought, DOE's expectation is that we would test with 10 the rated cooling capacity. To it -- let me get my 11 prepositions right. 12 MR. THARP: Basically using -- if the 13 manufacturer -- for example, if the manufacturer does 14 not supply an air flow rate, DOE has published that 15 you are going to assume 400 CFM per ton, and you base 16 that off of the rated capacity that was supplied. And 17 you determine the static based off of the rated 18 capacity. 19 MS. MEYERS: If you would go back just one 20 more time. 21 MS. TUCKER: On, sure. 22 MS. MEYERS: Just on that second bullet if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 you would note three-phase. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. THARP: Go back to that one. What is 4 the difference between the first and second bullets? 5 MR. WHITWELL: One is less than 65,000 BTU; 6 the other is above. 7 MS. MEYERS: Oh. Well, then, that shouldn't 8 be -- 9 MR. THARP: So actually the second one is 10 actually -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Should be greater than -- 12 MR. THARP: -- greater than or equal to 65-. 13 MS. TUCKER: Well, no, the second one is 14 just accepting the first. So it's commercial package 15 -- it's basically saying all of -- 16 MR. THARP: Thank you. 17 MS. TUCKER: No problem. 18 (Simultaneous speaking.) 19 MR. FLY: Shouldn't the bottom bullet be 65- 20 to 760? 21 MS. TUCKER: What's that? 22 MR. FLY: I mean, up to 760; right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 MR. AMRANE: Are you talking about the -- 2 MS. TUCKER: Are you talking about this 3 whole section right here? 4 MR. FLY: Yeah. 5 MS. TUCKER: It is that. It's just saying 6 that it's everything else that is not less than 65-. 7 MR. AMRANE: That's regulated. 8 MS. TUCKER: It's covered, yeah. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 10 MR. FLY: It just doesn't say that. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we're not imposing 12 compliance on anything that is not regulated. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: If it's not covered, we 14 can't legally do anything about that, so -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: The very last inset bullet -- 16 this is Jill from Trane. 17 MS. TUCKER: This one? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: The type of heating, make sure 19 that zero or no heating can be a choice. Don't make 20 it have to be. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So is that going to be like a 22 pull-down box with choices or does the manufacturer

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 insert information there? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Probably a list of options. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Because as we talked 4 about yesterday, so we got electric, we got gas, we 5 could have hydronic, we could have steam. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Somehow you indicate dual 7 fuel. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Dual fuel? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Dual fuel. That's a big one. 10 I mean, I don't know if that's commercially available, 11 but gas and -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Help me out with the dual fuel 13 issue. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a heat pump with a gas 15 heat exchanger in it. So a gas heat exchanger 16 optimized around temperatures below 40 degrees and -- 17 around 40 degrees. It depends -- the balance point 18 does depend. And then the heating -- heat pump side 19 heating does for the more moderate temperatures. So 20 it's an optimized design around two operating 21 temperatures. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. One of these residential

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 units -- 2 MR. SACHS: One of the primary markets for 3 these is rural areas where the distribution lines are 4 pretty thin and they can't take a big hit of 10 kW per 5 house. 6 MR. KOJAK: Heat pumps are less efficient at 7 lower temperatures. So as the temperature goes really 8 cold, the supplemental heat kicks in because the -- 9 MR. SACHS: Right. And in the rural areas 10 the grid can't stand that big hit of resistance heat. 11 So many of the rural co-ops require the gas furnace 12 stage, instead of resistance backup, to -- if you want 13 to put a heat pump on their lines. That's what I was 14 trying to get to. 15 MS. MEYERS: But they often do that with 16 just a gas furnace. These are package deal fuel 17 units. 18 MR. SACHS: Right. Well, this is the 19 commercial one right now. I'm sorry. 20 MS. MEYERS: This is the commercial one. 21 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 22 MS. MEYERS: I have one of those residential

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 ones on my house. It's a fabulous unit. You should 2 try it. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Who makes it? 4 MR. SACHS: Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate 5 your changing the subject to save me, but in Virginia 6 it isn't going to get that cold again. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So when you -- I'm a little 9 confused now. So didn't we go through this with the 10 gas thing, that we didn't -- when you test it, the gas 11 doesn't matter? I'm sorry. Maybe I'm -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: No, I think maybe the issue 13 here is on the dual fuel it is -- at the rating point 14 it is going to be running on heat pump, but you've got 15 the gas heat exchanger in there, so you've got higher 16 pressure drop, air side pressure drop; right? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And I guess what I'm 18 just trying to say is don't disallow other heating -- 19 I mean, if there is some kind of a pull-down menu 20 there, they have to think about all of the possible 21 heating types. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. That's why I would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 argue for not a pull-down and let you put in what you 2 think it is. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. We can 4 program this two ways. We can allow freeform; in 5 other words, you guys type it in. That's less ideal 6 for us. Or we can do a dropdown. But in order to do a 7 dropdown, it would probably be helpful if you could 8 help us with a list, an exhaustive list. 9 MR. AMRANE: We need to think about how AHRI 10 might be submitting the information, too. So I don't 11 know, I mean -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. Yeah. So if 13 you want to look at how you guys do it now, and all of 14 the options you offer, and then we could come up with 15 a way, I mean, this is enough to say we need to 16 collect that information, in terms of how we collect 17 that information. And in terms of implementing it in 18 a template, we can talk about ongoing. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But when you test with the 20 dual fuel, was someone just saying that the heat pump 21 would always be the -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, it depends on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 the temperature. In the case that Jill explained, if 2 it's -- heat pump down to 40 degrees at the rating or 3 at the -- you know, the test condition, it's going to 4 be running the heat pump. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It will run in heat pump. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Now, somebody else's might -- 7 is something different -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: If you want to do a commercial 9 furnace test on that very same unit, you could do a 10 commercial furnace test on that very same unit. And 11 then you can do the fueling test. There's a lot of 12 bang for your buck there, John, if you're buying it. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Make sure you get a Trane 14 unit, though. 15 MR. BAUMAN: The lab is going to charge you 16 for two separate tests, though. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm glad everyone is so 18 confident about their ratings. Who wants to 19 volunteer? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that's kind of what 21 is currently required. And we talked about the PDF 22 with additional instructions, but there is some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 information that we think is also necessary. One of 2 the things we would like to collect is nominal cooling 3 capacity. The basic model definition is based on 4 nominal, and so for us it would be helpful to actually 5 have the nominal capacity in there. 6 The rated heating capacity, where 7 applicable, we would be willing to collect IER as an 8 optional piece of information. We know a lot of you 9 are already using those ratings. We could go ahead 10 and put that in there as an optional piece of 11 information, and that way it would already start 12 displaying, and -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But the difference 14 between collecting this and displaying, we should talk 15 about that, right? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I've got that on my 17 list. The rated airflow for each fan coil, the rated 18 static, charging instructions, frequency set points, 19 required dip switch control settings, and base motor 20 designation. Reactions? Thoughts? 21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 22 guess my question would be, why the IER? What's the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 need for the -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to. 3 MR. AMRANE: No, I know. But why -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: To the extent that 5 manufacturers are already making these 6 representations, and we know that people are looking 7 at them, if it's a helpful piece of information -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I think the other 9 answer is some people have asked for that, Karim. 10 Some people have asked if we could -- if they could -- 11 if we could collect it, so they could display it. So 12 our way of doing that is to make it optional. If they 13 don't want to supply it, that's fine. But if they 14 want to, they can. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So perhaps maybe for non-AHRI 16 members, I guess where they don't -- they are not in 17 the directory? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You guys can -- I guess 19 individuals -- I mean, but many of you already, you 20 know, for a variety of different reasons have it in 21 your literature, submitted to AHRI, it is already on 22 the web.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. It's already on the web. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 3 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem, and I 4 agree with that, but I do have a problem with the 5 information being on a DOE website if it's not a 6 federal metric. So, you know, it's on AHRI; it's in 7 our literature, but I do have a problem with 8 collecting and putting information on a DOE website 9 that is not covered by the feds. It's just a kind of 10 "in principle" thing. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should go back when we 12 did AEDMs and not allow you to use an AEDM to get IER. 13 Because we extended that courtesy because -- even 14 though it's not a federal metric. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I don't remember any 16 discussion about AEDM and IER. 17 MR. AMRANE: I think what we agreed to was 18 that if the IER becomes a regulated metric, then, yes, 19 I mean, the AEDM should be based on that. No 20 question. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I completely agree with the 22 concept, Karim, which is why this says "optional." I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 mean, to DOE it doesn't necessarily matter one way or 2 the other. But I'm just saying, people have asked for 3 the ability to do that. So if AHRI members, either 4 individually or collectively, are uncomfortable with 5 this, then they just don't submit it. But it doesn't 6 preclude other people that may want to from submitting 7 it. 8 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So if 9 they submit it, will you be inclined to check to make 10 sure it's accurate? 11 MR. AMRANE: That's another thing to do -- 12 MR. STEPHENS: Would you want to put 13 potentially inaccurate information on the DOE website? 14 MS. BARHYDT: I wouldn't say that everything 15 submitted is accurate. We repeat whatever people 16 submit to us and certify that it is true, accurate, 17 and complete to the best of their knowledge. 18 MR. AMRANE: And that would be the concern. 19 AHRI would be concerned with this because the IER 20 somehow directory is certified by -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: They're still making a legal 22 statement to the Federal Government, just to federal

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 criminal -- 2 MR. AMRANE: About the IER? 3 MS. BARHYDT: If they provide it to the 4 government, they are certifying that it is true, 5 accurate, and complete. 6 MR. AMRANE: So if they fail an IER rating, 7 you would be what? 8 MS. BARHYDT: We're not going to be checking 9 it. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: We can't test -- 11 MR. THARP: So then I guess AHRI's concern 12 would be that, you know, if a member has an 11 OER 13 unit with a 15 IER and a non-AHRI member comes to -- 14 submits the information with the same 11 OER, but they 15 have a 17 IER, that non-AHRI competitor could say, 16 "Well, look, we've got to certify a value to DOE that 17 we're 17 IER." That would be our concern, that 18 somebody would be out there -- 19 MR. AMRANE: You know, if they don't check 20 it, I mean -- 21 MR. THARP: -- it's not checked, but it's a 22 certified value, right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 MS. BARHYDT: Don't you do challenge 2 testing? 3 MR. AMRANE: We do, but at the same time, I 4 mean, I think this is inviting this kind of thing, I 5 believe. 6 MR. STEPHENS: To that point, if someone did 7 a challenge test or even bought a competitor's unit 8 and did the test -- 9 MR. THARP: What's the penalty for having 10 the wrong IER? 11 MR. STEPHENS: -- and presented the 12 information to the Department and proved, without a 13 doubt, that their IEER, whatever the metric is -- I'm 14 totally out of that one -- and they were wrong, then 15 what would happen to them? 16 MS. BARHYDT: I'd have to think about that 17 one. I mean, at a minimum. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So, Dusty -- I mean, Rusty. 19 I did it again. My lab manager is Dusty, so -- so 20 Rusty's comment made me think about this. So if 21 somebody were to submit this to DOE and it was to be 22 put on the website, is that -- would the general

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 public think that that's implying that that's a 2 certified value? I guess is a question. And, if so, 3 I guess that might be a concern, if not everybody has 4 it on there, and some people say, "Oh, yeah. Well, 5 this is DOE-certified, because it's on their website." 6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we put quite a few 7 disclaimers up there in the first place, to say that 8 none of that is DOE-certified. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But you know how that 10 works. 11 MR. SACHS: Well, Bob, the underlying -- 12 this is Harvey. The underlying point is how many 13 purchase influencers actually know what "certified" 14 means. I'm sorry, but, you know, we're in our little 15 bubble together. 16 MR. STEPHENS: I don't think they know what 17 IEER means either. 18 MR. WHITWELL: They're learning. 19 MR. THARP: Well, it's part of -- it's an 20 ASHRAE 9.1 metric now. 21 MR. WHITWELL: The people that buy our 22 products I think know what IEER is. At least they

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 understand the concept. 2 MR. SACHS: So I'm just suggesting that 3 there's a certain fuzziness when we expect people to 4 understand the difference between DOE-certified and 5 just submitted to DOE. 6 MR. THARP: Certified to DOE and DOE7 certified are two different thing. 8 MR. SACHS: Yeah. 9 MR. THARP: Understand -- but we understand 10 that, but the general populous probably doesn't 11 really. 12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think the 13 question is whether manufacturers ought to be allowed 14 to choose to submit their data or manufacturers would 15 prefer en bloc that IER not be submitted at this time. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we did receive a petition 17 -- this is in the residential market -- for voluntary 18 reporting of EER for the central air. And so we are 19 going to publish the petition and seek comment, but -- 20 so we know at least in that market that at least one 21 company finds it important that consumers have the 22 information ahead of the metric being federal law. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 I guess we are trying to draw a comparison here. 2 You know, I understand your points, though. 3 They are valid. You know, so we're just -- we are 4 throwing it up there that -- you know, I could see 5 this being a nefarious thing. I didn't think of it 6 the way you guys did, but I see your point. 7 MR. THARP: I see utility both ways, too, 8 but it's, you know, six of one, half a dozen of the 9 other. And I would like to know what non-AHRI members 10 are publishing, and having one central location would 11 be good to have it, but then, again, it's not 12 certified value. So there's pros and cons each way. 13 Understood. 14 MR. SACHS: I'd like to see it in part 15 because it is honey that flies get drawn to. May get 16 us information that has different interest from its 17 sources, what sources might think its interest is. 18 Tying to Rusty's remark. 19 MS. MEYERS: Well, I mean, I guess my point 20 is, it is available. It is on a manufacturer's 21 literature. If you want to get 90 percent of the 22 industry, you would go to the AHRI website. The other

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 10 percent could be obtained online through 2 manufacturer's literature. 3 Putting it on a DOE website, though, adds a 4 new element when it's not, you know, a metric that's 5 allowed to be even used by the Federal Government. 6 And it's a rating. It indicates an efficiency level, 7 and it has not been approved to be used. And so 8 having that on the DOE website, I think, just adds a 9 different dynamic. And I will make the same argument 10 on the EER thing. 11 MR. AMRANE: And I would go even further. I 12 think it looks to me more like a marketing thing than 13 anything else. And so DOE wants to be in that 14 business? I don't know. I mean, I'd be concerned 15 about this. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, it's also a place for 17 -- you know, maybe utilities are running programs 18 around those metrics, and they would like a complete 19 list of products to maybe bound a program around. I 20 don't know. 21 MS. MEYERS: And they can get that 22 information.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. They can. 2 MR. THARP: For AHRI members. 3 MR. AMRANE: No, it's not for members. Our 4 program is open to member and non-members. So it's 5 open to anybody who wants to join. So it's any 6 manufacturer can join. 7 MS. MEYERS: No. You don't have to be an 8 AHRI member to be a member of the certification 9 program. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- 11 MR. THARP: And going on to some of the 12 other metrics, my first thought on nominal cooling 13 capacity and rated static is if we are giving rated 14 cooling capacity, you more or less have the nominal 15 and rated static information from them. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and rating static is per 17 the test standard; correct? 18 MR. WHITWELL: It's per the test standard, 19 so that's -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we have a 21 choice. 22 MR. THARP: Yeah. So once you have the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 rated capacity, you have the rated static. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So the value in the test 3 procedure is a minimum for the static? 4 MR. THARP: Uh-huh. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And you can go above the 6 minimum. 7 MR. WHITWELL: By .05 inches. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It has an upward bound 9 on it, and that's more for the test variation. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I don't read it the 11 same way as you guys do, which may be a different 12 issue. But I read it as that's the tolerance around 13 the static value, yes, that you have to maintain. But 14 I do read it that it's a minimum static that can -- 15 you can exceed. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Then we'd better 17 clarify that, because -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a different 19 conversation outside of this. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. A little bit of what we 21 had yesterday, Ashley? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Similar.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you all want to have 2 a test procedure conversation separately about the 3 rated static issue? I mean, about the -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't know that there was 6 an issue, but -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So my position here is that 8 I think this information would be helpful. I realize 9 -- especially like rated air flow and rated static, 10 for us to understand what you did. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Airflow, I totally 12 understand. 13 MR. WHITWELL: The rated static. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Rated static I don't -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: The rated static is in the 16 test procedure. 17 MR. AMRANE: It's in the test procedure. 18 It's based on the capacity -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you guys think it's a 20 single point, that you have to hit .45, or whatever. 21 Depending on your unit, you have to hit a given value. 22 And I think it can be read -- there is some ambiguity

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 there, and DOE's position is that's a minimum, and 2 that it could float. If you need to hit a rated 3 airflow and it has to go above that, that's allowable 4 by the current test procedure. 5 So that's a discussion for a different day, 6 but until we resolve that one way or the other I think 7 it's helpful -- I mean, we can assume that everyone is 8 at the rated static. 9 Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to sit down and 10 talk about this separately. It's probably not worth 11 trying to deal with it here. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So no comments on the 13 rated airflow, rated static, we need to deal with 14 later? Charging instructions. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I do want to point out 16 one thing with charging instructions, and I think this 17 is more or less clear. But a lot of you guys have, 18 you know, your charge, and then there's degree and 19 subcools and your annuals. In some cases, you know, 20 you're trying to hit all three, but you can't hit all 21 three in all cases, or at least we have run into that 22 before.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 So it may be helpful to say that, you know, 2 if there's a range, our test procedure adjusts this 3 right now, because at least with the May amendments 4 that came in. But to the extent that you have a 5 hierarchy or, you know, we have also seen cases where 6 it's a charge to this, and one place charged the -- in 7 a different place, or if you pulled different versions 8 of things they say different things. So that's why we 9 kind of want a more definitive value perhaps in the 10 PDF. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Nodding my head, Ashley. You 12 don't see it. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Sorry. 14 MS. BARHYDT: What about the last two 15 bullets -- well, last three bullet points? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: What kind of thing are you 17 thinking in base motor designation? 18 MR. WHITWELL: That's what the horsepower -- 19 the horsepower for our base motor. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Whatever your base 22 motor characteristics are. Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. That's fine. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Question on the third from 3 the bottom. So frequency set points, I understand. 4 RPM -- is that RPM per -- revolutions per second, per 5 step? 6 MALE SPEAKER: But you don't need the -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. You don't need that. 8 So you just need to know what the frequency -- what 9 compressor speed it should be running at full load, 10 right? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: You don't need anything step. 14 (Simultaneous speaking.) 15 MR. THARP: Go into rated airflow. 16 Actually, rated airflow -- this is Rusty with Goodman. 17 The rated airflow is always standard SCFM. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: What's the difference? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then, I have something 20 that -- for the base motor designation, if it's not a 21 variable airflow unit and there are specific 22 instructions on, you know, a configuration or a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 certain setting that is needed to get your rating, you 2 would include that with your base motor. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I agree. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Rusty, so what was the 6 difference between CFM and SCFM? 7 MR. THARP: Actually, it's standard -- 8 standard air is at sea level. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Okay. 10 MR. THARP: And barometric -- standard 11 barometric pressure. 12 MS. BARHYDT: I got it. Standard 13 conditions. 14 MR. THARP: Standard temperature conditions, 15 ambient conditions. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And then, a question. So we 17 talked about how if one of the various features that 18 we have agreed not to test, there has to be an 19 identical model available for test without that 20 feature, we are thinking about, should there be some 21 kind of an indication in -- possibly in the PDF, if 22 this basic model has one of those excluded things, so

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 that we're not going on a wild goose chase trying to 2 find the model that doesn't have the feature, because 3 in reality you have actually rated it with that 4 feature. Does that make sense? 5 And, I mean, it might just be a sentence in 6 the PDF saying, "Base model includes" whatever the 7 excluded feature is. 8 MR. FLY: Because there is not a base model 9 that -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Because there is not a base 11 model without it. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Back to I only make coated 13 coils and that's all I make. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That's probably a good 16 idea. I mean, there are -- we talked about cases 17 where we have base models that include things that are 18 exempt. 19 MR. THARP: Well, do you just want a column 20 for each one that says yes/no as far as -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Guidance to the Department on 22 whether excluded features are included. Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 MR. WHITWELL: And that would be part of the 2 PDF. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. And I don't see any 4 reason why that couldn't just be in the PDF. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Now, another question on the 6 -- now the third from the bottom. Required dip switch 7 control settings for step variable components. That 8 might not -- there might not always be settings that 9 you can make on the unit itself. You might need to 10 control it through a computer to set the speeds using 11 -- you know, a manufacturer might have to come in and 12 set -- like on VRF equipment, for example, you could 13 have the same thing on this equipment. 14 MS. TUCKER: You would put in your IO manual 15 that it would have to be factored in or -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think it would be in 17 the IO manual. I mean, why would you put in the -- in 18 something for the consumer that if you want to run it 19 at the -- for the test you've got to -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: It would be in the PDF. 22 MS. BARHYDT: It wouldn't normally require

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 factory installation. But in order to get it to test 2 conditions -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: So to get it to run and -- 4 yeah, similar to the example on the water heater I 5 think. The unit itself will not continue to run at 6 the test condition, because it's not -- it's going to 7 say, "Okay. I'm not changing the room temperature. I 8 need to do something different." So -- 9 MR. KOJAK: Especially some of it is timed. 10 You know, if you -- you know, you have to run it for a 11 long time, let's say, to do a test properly. And 12 sometimes the settings are only 40 minutes. And if it 13 takes you longer to do that, you keep going back into 14 its variable state and then you need additional -- 15 that type of programming to set it that way. 16 And we have done testing for VRF like he's 17 saying, where people have to come in with laptops and 18 actually connect to the program. 19 MS. BARHYDT: But you're saying this is for 20 stuff other than VRF. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it could. I mean, 22 variable speed, just because we have to do it for VDF

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 -- or for VRF, I mean, it can be the same thing on 2 another equipment. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But wouldn't these be ones 4 that you guys would opt to have a manufacturer 5 present? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily. Sorry to 7 disappoint you. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This wouldn't be part of 9 your 10 percent? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Why would we do that? I 11 mean, I guess I'm just thinking, you know, the VRF, 12 it's automatic; right? And it doesn't mean because 13 they're there to set the speeds that they don't get a 14 second test. At least as I understand that. So, I 15 don't remember that being part of the discussion. So 16 maybe it should be, but -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is automatic for VR. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's automatic that 19 they're there, but the comment, Ashley, was that just 20 because they're there I think they still have the 21 automatic second test, if there's a problem. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I didn't think they did.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Maybe not. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They do not have the 3 automatic second test if they're there for the first. 4 MS. BARHYDT: No. That was one of the 5 provisions was that -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 7 MS. BARHYDT: -- if you were there for the 8 first test, you didn't get an automatic second test, 9 because you should -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 11 MS. BARHYDT: -- raise whatever issues in 12 the first test. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Yeah, that makes 14 sense. 15 MS. BARHYDT: The whole point of the second 16 test is that you weren't there for the first test. 17 MR. WHITWELL: But you're saying that a 18 manufacturer -- for non-VRF equipment, if you want to 19 be there to set the compressor speed, you have to use 20 this as -- use one of your 10 percent -- 21 MR. THARP: Or provide the information in 22 the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 PDF. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or provide information or we 3 get to the point where the lab says, "Hey, we need 4 help, and we're going to contact you anyway." 5 MR. WHITWELL: So what if you were just to 6 put in the PDF that it has to be -- you need -- it 7 needs to be set with manufacturer's proprietary -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: This model will not run at 9 test conditions. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can do that, and you can 11 expect a call from DOE. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, I think that's 13 probably what we should be doing. Right? I mean, you 14 know, this is going to become more and more of a -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. That's what I'm seeing 16 was a trend up towards variable speed. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Just indication that -- I 18 would say an indication that model will not operate at 19 test conditions. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Without some -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Without -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: -- additional, you know,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 manufacturer input. 2 MS. BARHYDT: -- manufacturer programming or 3 something. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Something like that. 5 And that's why you have the subpoints submitted, so 6 that when the manufacturer comes in to run it you can 7 check to make sure, okay, it is running where they 8 said ahead of time it's going to run. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI. 11 It's interesting to note that where we are talking 12 about adjustments and the manufacturer system of 13 adjustments, there are some products that have 14 controls that are so integrated into the functional 15 operation of the unit that they actually have to work 16 with the control vendor to create a test control. And 17 you don't adjust it; you swap it out. 18 So you'll remove the factory supply control, 19 put in one that has e-proms burned to the different 20 levels that are required to allow it to run. This is 21 done sometimes in the safety testing, where you have 22 to maintain a certain level, but the control modulates

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 down based on some of the parameters you might find. 2 So there is not a setting you can go in and override 3 that. You have to have a different control that has 4 been created in order to do that. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that would fall 6 under that language. Any other issues? 7 MR. SACHS: Hi. This is Harvey, and I've 8 had a request come in that we include degrees 9 Fahrenheit in just the raw -- instead of just the raw 10 numbers for temperatures. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I had a question 14 going back to the last slide. What is to prevent 15 abuse of the manufacturer indicating that the product 16 can't be operated without getting information from the 17 manufacturer? I mean, that sort of seems like it 18 could potentially gut that requirement that when you 19 pick your 10 percent you get the -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 21 MR. BALLO: I mean, do we want to limit that 22 to certain types of packaged equipment or is it really

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 just a problem for the variable equipment? 2 MR. FLY: It's control system-dependent. 3 MS. BARHYDT: It's control system-dependent. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And as you move to IEER, 5 there is going to be even more of that as well. 6 Right? 7 MR. BALLO: I mean, I don't have a problem 8 with -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: There's no way you're going to 10 be able to -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: No. I understand that. 12 MR. BALLO: You know, if that's the case, 13 then maybe we should go back and revisit that AEDM 14 thing and make it -- the 10 percent is only applicable 15 outside of this product category. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, as a matter of where 17 things are going to go commercially, where things are 18 going to go commercially available. I mean, there are 19 standard electromechanical control systems with on/off 20

-- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Jill? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 MS. BARHYDT: Can all of you all at that end 2 of the table speak up a little bit more? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: That's amazing. You're asking 6 me to speak up. 7 So their standard, you know, systems, 8 electromechanical with standard compressors, on/off 9 compressors, I would say go for it, test it. Then, in 10 those very same product families there are, you know, 11 sophisticated controllers on there that you are not 12 going to be able to bypass without some instruction, 13 and different types of compressors, either step or 14 variable speed compressors, that require somebody to 15 understand how to run those things. 16 So, and they're all in the same product. 17 Right now, the market is probably more so in the lower 18 end of stuff, but the market is going to move, and 19 we're going to have more and more of those models. 20 And my comment on IER -- and Bob is right, 21 but I think that we are going to have to look hard in 22 that test standard about, you know --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Because there you are 2 controlling compressor stages and fan stages. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. And, you know, codes 4 outside of this are requiring our fans to be staged, 5 are requiring our compressors to have minimum stages. 6 So those are -- you know, both California codes and 7 the building codes are going to go that way. So we're 8 all going to have different schemes on how we are 9 going to achieve that. 10 MR. BALLO: I don't have an objection to 11 doing it this way. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: But you're right, if we made - 13 - I mean, that's kind of what I was arguing somewhat 14 with the manufacturer needs to be there because I 15 don't know how else to tell you this. I really don't. 16 I'm not trying to be obstinant. I just don't know how 17 else to tell you. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If it's variable speed, 19 inverter-driven, it probably requires this. I mean, 20 other than that, there might be some things, and I 21 don't have -- I think other than inverter-driven I 22 can't think of anything right now, but --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 MS. HOOTMAN: But in the step compressors, 2 wouldn't you want to make sure that it is at a certain 3 full load and it doesn't ratchet itself down all of a 4 sudden? 5 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Even if that's a step 7 compressor on a two-stage unit and -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know, now you want to 10 make sure it's at the full load. 11 MR. WHITWELL: They should all be running. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Not ratcheting down. And just 13 like you said, the units run a lot longer than the 14 condition that the control system is going to tell it. 15 So you're going to have to force it or override the 16 controls. 17 MR. KOJAK: So like dual stage, it's easy to 18 bypass the controls. But when it's variable, that's 19 when you run -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. We're going to have a 21 step compressor on one circuit, and you could have a 22 regular on/off on another circuit. And we're starting

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 to get a lot of different mixes this way. And that's 2 kind of where I was back to, the manufacturer should 3 be there present. And I argued that way long ago, and 4 everyone didn't like that. It would save a lot of 5 time and a lot of back and forth with, you know, phone 6 calls, but I realize it means a trip for everyone to 7 be there. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else on air 9 conditioners? 10 MR. THARP: And all that information would 11 be optional under the last bullet. 12 MS. BARHYDT: No. 13 MR. THARP: You're saying all of that would 14 be mandatory. So the only thing optional would be 15 IER? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Which may come off. 17 MR. THARP: But that information would be 18 submitted in the PDF. All of that information would 19 be in the PDF. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. Well, rated 21 heating capacity would probably be the -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, heat pump? So this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 would be on the heat pump you're talking about? 2 MS. BARHYDT: But whether it's in the 3 template or not isn't relevant to whether it's public 4 or not. 5 MS. TUCKER: But if it's not in the 6 template, then technically it's not required because 7 the PDF itself is optional. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Well, what I'm thinking of is 9 that if we require this and they provide it in the 10 PDF, then it's not optional. The PDF is not optional. 11 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Why 13 are we -- I mean, do we want the rated heating 14 capacities? Unless we need to -- we don't -- 15 MS. TUCKER: That was the question I was 16 asking earlier. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Corey, we do have to give 18 capacity on a heat pump. 19 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. But I don't 20 think that the regs today require the heating 21 capacity. I think it's based on the cooling capacity. 22 MR. WHITWELL: It all comes back to what is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 the certification -- what is the sort of information 2 we are supplying the certification for, right? Is it 3 for DOE so they can evaluate and check units? Or is 4 it something for somebody else? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: The public database is there 6 for lots of reasons. People -- 7 MR. AMRANE: I think there are ways to get 8 the information. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: But the PDF is not going to be 10 available to -- 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So you've got this in the PDF. 13 MR. KOJAK: What's the frequency set points? 14 I mean, I have only seen very few units, you know, 15 probably R&D units that actually have like a third 16 party frequency drive that has a display on it where 17 you can read the actual frequency of the motor. It is 18 usually not displayed anywhere. So what are you 19 asking for when you say "frequency set points"? 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think what that 21 really should be should be the compressor -- the 22 variable or the inverter-driven components operating

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 speeds, or something like that. Right? Really, what 2 you want to know is what speed is the compressor 3 supposed to run at at the rated condition? 4 MR. KOJAK: Well, wouldn't that just be the 5 same as the one below it? Because, really, you want 6 to know how to set it to maximum, intermediate, and 7 minimum speeds, if it's a variable. So -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: You don't need intermediate 9 and minimum. You just need the speed for the rating - 10 - for EER and COP. 11 MR. KOJAK: Okay. So it's just the max. 12 MR. WHITWELL: It's the rated speed. 13 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 14 MR. WHITWELL: May or may not be the max. 15 MR. KOJAK: All right. There you go. 16 That's true. Okay. 17 MR. WHITWELL: So there's probably two; 18 right? One for cooling and one for heating, if it's a 19 heat pump. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 21 Again, if this information is available on the product 22 or with the I&M, does it need to be duplicated here?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 Or is this the information that is not otherwise 2 readily available? It's a lot of information if you 3 already have some or all of this provided. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, again, so this is just 5 getting back to what I stated earlier, that we're 6 asking everything we need to know to test the unit, to 7 verify the rating that you have on the product when 8 you test it. So we're just asking you for, what is 9 all of that information? And so -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So we could -- 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- this is what we think it 12 is, and we're asking for -- 13 MR. AMRANE: That's fine. This is Karim 14 with AHRI. But, again, the IER has nothing to do with 15 it. The heating capacity has nothing to do with the 16 way you test the unit. So that's why I don't think 17 it's appropriate to list that here. I mean, it has 18 nothing to do with the information needed to run the 19 test. You're not running the test for IER. You're 20 running it for EER. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, they're running for COP 22 is what --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- and heat pump. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would like to say that it 4 does help us to -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the unit correctly. 7 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Again, I don't 8 mind supplying that information as long as it's kept 9 private. This is not in stuff that -- especially 10 things like the dip switch settings and the frequency 11 set points, those are not things that I want my 12 competitors having accessing to. 13 So, again, that is information I think you 14 do need to do the testing and test it properly. And I 15 don't mind supplying it if it's just for the testing. 16 But, again, if this is information that might 17 potentially become public or given out, I would not 18 want to -- I would pare this list back significantly. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Good point, Rusty. That's a 20 good point. 21 MR. THARP: If it was just the private 22 testing info, I don't mind supplying it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MR. THARP: As long as it's -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Ways to drive the unit to run 4 outside of its regular operating conditions. I don't 5 want a customer to get that and start getting -- going 6 around things. So besides my competitors, I don't 7 want -- we don't give that to our customers, the 8 ability to do that. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Just 10 a question. When we submit it to DOE, even if it is 11 held confidential, is there a timeframe there? After 12 five years or 10 years it does become public, or is it 13 indefinite confidential? 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's that one. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Indefinite? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's my understanding. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Indefinite, do you mean -- 18 "indefinite" means it's not determined, or 19 "indefinite" means that forever? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's nominally correct. 21 I'm not sure what that means, but that's what -- 22 MR. STEPHENS: I think Jeff's question was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 right on the money about whether -- if it's requested 2 by the Freedom of Information Act -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So if it's business 4 confidential, my understanding is you market it as 5 such so that, you know, it's not subject to FOIA. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Can the Department 7 provide a header for the PDF that we can all use, so 8 that when we submit confidential information, there is 9 no doubt? 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The lawyer is back in the 11 room. I figured if I stalled long enough -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So what's the question -- 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: If FOIA is confidential. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. What about it? 15 MR. STEPHENS: So for the PDF where the 16 manufacturers are providing confidential information, 17 can the Department provide a standard header that we 18 could use so there's no doubt? 19 MS. BARHYDT: We don't really want to make 20 just the standard form. I mean -- 21 MR. STEPHENS: Just verbiage. 22 MR. WHITWELL: He's asking for verbiage to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 make sure -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. WHITWELL: -- that the data will be 4 protected. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it's not that easy, 6 because you -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: That's why we were looking 8 for input, I guess. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So you can slap the header at 10 the top, but then you can provide tons and tons of 11 public information on it and it doesn't make it 12 confidential. So just having the header at the top 13 doesn't get you there. The information still has to 14 actually be confidential business information. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But if we provide all 16 of this information, which a consumer could pick up 17 through the Freedom of Information Act, and figure out 18 how to make our unit do backflips instead of front 19 flips, and cause us all kinds of problems, then -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: So if you submit the 21 information to us, DOE already has regulations in 22 place that say that before we release it in response

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 to a Freedom of Information Act request we will send 2 it back to you and we will at that time ask for your 3 views on what needs to be redacted. 4 MR. STEPHENS: And what if you disagree with 5 our views? Because this is very short and sweet 6 information; right? So it's going to have a lot of -- 7 everything is basically going to be highlighted as 8 confidential. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So you highlight a whole bunch 10 of stuff as confidential, and then you have to give us 11 a justification. You don't just mark the boxes; you 12 have to actually explain why this is confidential 13 business information. And after you have done that, 14 you send it back to us. If we disagree, we notify you 15 in writing that we disagree, and we have to wait seven 16 days before we release it. That seven days is so that 17 you can sue us. 18 MR. STEPHENS: So in seven days -- I'm a 19 small business that doesn't have a lawyer on staff, 20 and I have to go and explain the situation to them, 21 and do cartwheels in addition to backflips. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm trying to think if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 anyone in here has been -- had a FOIA for anything 2 they had submitted to us. I can't think of one. 3 Maybe on the residential side? I don't think anyone 4 in this room has. 5 I think if you talk to the companies who we 6 had information from the company, and this is not to 7 suggest that they were subject to enforcement action. 8 We just had information from the company sometimes as 9 a result of requests for a test procedure waiver or an 10 arms submittal or something like that. They submit 11 information to us. We really work hard with you to 12 understand and protect information that is 13 confidential business information. It is not in 14 anyone's interest to release confidential business 15 information, and we do work with you. 16 But there is a legal standard. It's not 17 enough to just say, "Well, we don't want this 18 information released." 19 MR. STEPHENS: That's understandable. I 20 think we all understand that. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: So where this came up was -- 22 so, Rusty, maybe repeat your original --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 MR. THARP: My comment was that all of this 2 information that's in that last bullet, all of the 3 sub- bullets, I don't mind supplying that if it is for 4 the testing purpose and not going to be made public. 5 But if this information is going to be made public, 6 then I will change my position and want to submit only 7 the absolute bare minimum required for testing, 8 because I think not all of this is required for 9 testing capacity rate, heating capacity of the IER. 10 That stuff, I don't think -- it's not necessary for 11 the testing process. 12 But because things like the frequency set 13 points and dip switch settings, things of that nature 14 for the testing process, you know, that's stuff 15 competitors would love to get hold of. And so I would 16 just like for that to be stuff that is submitted on 17 the PDF that is not made public. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Laura, I mean, our intention 20 is not to post the PDF in the public database. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. No. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Period. Any information

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 that you put in the PDF, we -- is going internal to 2 DOE. What Laura is trying to say is that information 3 could be subject to FOIA, and we'd have to go through 4 the process. But there is no intent here -- all of 5 those things you see listed right there would go in a 6 PDF if we -- if that's the easiest way to do it. But 7 none of it is meant to go in the public database. 8 MS. BARHYDT: What about the cooling 9 capacity and heating capacity, Ashley? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the rated cooling 11 capacities on the previous slide that should go in the 12 public database. I don't see a reason why nominal 13 needs to. There is no reason why rated heating 14 capacity shouldn't go in the database. 15 And, really, I mean, I know we didn't really 16 decide IER one way or the other, but it seems like the 17 majority agreed to not having it. If we did keep IER, 18 there is no reason that shouldn't go in the public 19 database. But other than that, this stuff should not 20 go in the public database. I mean, the stuff provided 21 in the PDF shouldn't go in the public database. 22 We can't say it -- I mean, if we got a FOIA,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 we'd have to go through the process, but there is no 2 intention to put it in the public database. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Does that help? 4 MR. THARP: Again, if that's information in 5 the PDF, I'm fine with it. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Not 8 to keep kicking the horse, but realize with the cross9 section of manufacturers in this industry you have 10 some that -- the larger ones, a rounding error in 11 their business is the gross annual revenue for other 12 manufacturers; right? 13 So the big dogs can just simply sic their 14 lawyers on the little dogs by swamping the Department 15 with a Freedom of Information Act request. And then 16 that stops all new product development and a lot of 17 other activities which are very good for the economy 18 and the country, because we have to shift gears and go 19 on the defensive instead of the offensive. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Before all of that, wouldn't 21 they simply buy the product and test it themselves? 22 MR. STEPHENS: They would do both.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 MR. THARP: Not if they don't know how to 2 set it. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Yeah. 4 But I'm not talking about anyone specific in 5 this room, because we are all good people. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, I'll agree in that 7 sense. I mean, it could bring you down to your knees. 8 It would bring some of us big ones down to our knees 9 in a lot of cases. I mean, we would stop and do a lot 10 of stuff around, you know -- 11 MR. THARP: Right. You get that kind of -- 12 even the big dogs, if you get that kind of a request, 13 it brings attention to the very highest levels and 14 causes a lot of internal pain. 15 MR. STEPHENS: And the only thing really 16 keeping it from happening is it is assured mutual 17 destruction because it is global thermal nuclear war, 18 right? As soon as one person does it, everybody does 19 it. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: We can have a side 21 discussion about FOIAs, over a beer somewhere. 22 I'll buy my own.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 MR. MYERS: Laura, this is Frank Myers, PVI. 2 I had asked a question while you were out of the room. 3 We talked about it briefly in the context of some 4 earlier discussions, and that is, if there is any of 5 this information that is already provided to the 6 laboratories by the way of markings on the product or 7 instructions included with the product, it doesn't 8 have to be repeated here. You just -- you want to 9 make sure you have it. 10 MS. BARHYDT: No. We actually want it here, 11 and I'll give you a very specific example. We bought 12 a unit. It had a manual in it that had three 13 different statics or airflows. I don't remember which 14 it was, but it had three of them in the manual. Which 15 one do we use? This is what we are going to test to. 16 MR. MYERS: As long as they don't give you 17 three there. 18 MS. BARHYDT: If they give us three there, 19 we are going to be calling them long before we ever 20 buy a unit. It is just manuals aren't a good, 21 reliable source for us to use. 22 MR. BAUMAN: That's why customers don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 bother reading them. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean, I'm going to 3 agree with you. They are not written for your -- for 4 you in mind, and they are not written for the test in 5 mind. They are written for the customer and their 6 application, so -- 7 MR. AMRANE: Which is what they should be. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So 10 are you looking for a PDF for each basic model, or 11 each family, or however the manufacturer -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have families. We 13 have basic models. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So the answer is basic 15 models. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Could be the same. Could be 19 the same for -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Maybe you submit the 21 same thing over and over and over, but -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You could do it the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 way you wanted. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers from PVI. 4 We had talked earlier again about the number of models 5 that you could have and the number of variations. You 6 might have the same product. It could have three 7 different controls and have three different sets of 8 instructions and three frequency set points, depending 9 on what, in this case, compressor was with this 10 product. 11 And then maintaining this when those change 12 in your change system, this is going to be a 13 tremendous amount of work initially, just this one 14 aspect. For the occasional test that is going to be 15 done, this is a tremendous amount of work for the 16 industry to go through, and to maintain this is an 17 even larger amount of work. 18 The payoff for this, I can't believe that it 19 is worth what this industry is going to pay to make 20 all of that happen. It would be less costly by far to 21 make a call and say, "Hey, we've got this piece of 22 equipment; send us what information you -- send us

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 this information when we ask for it." As opposed to 2 on the front end. 3 Then there is no communication with the lab. 4 It's only communication with you. There is only a 5 relatively small number of tests involved, so there is 6 a relatively small number of models. And you give us 7 a week and we give you this information, or give us a 8 day and we give you this information. But just for 9 the ones that you need it for. 10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 11 would send what Frank has just said here. I think it 12 makes a lot of sense, in my opinion, because just for 13 what he said, I mean, maintaining this is going to 14 require a lot of effort from all of the folks in this 15 room and those who are not in the room. 16 So, but I guess I understand maybe why UE 17 doesn't want to do it that way. You don't want to 18 manufacturers to know that you are buying a unit, and 19 that's a different -- yeah. 20 MR. MYERS: Ask us all three times or four 21 times a year for some information, we know you're not 22 testing that many units, but then we will know which

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 one is and which one -- 2 That's a lot easier than this. 3 MR. THARP: That's true. 4 MR. STEPHENS: If you buy the unit and you 5 already have the unit before you ask the questions, 6 then there is not a whole lot of wiggle room that 7 manufacturers have; right? 8 MR. MYERS: Especially if they only have a 9 short amount of time to respond, because I heard 10 someone talking earlier about you might be able to set 11 something up and work out special parameters. 12 MR. THARP: This kind of product it takes 13 days to set up sometimes. You're talking the VRF, I 14 don't think -- Mike, I don't know how much you've 15 done. You talk to Mike Stem at Intertek, and it takes 16 them six or seven days to set up a VRF system. 17 MR. KOJAK: Yes. VRF is intensive. 18 MR. MYERS: So if you had five business days 19 to respond, then that wouldn't be of concern. 20 MR. THARP: A typical 20-ton single package 21 unit is going to take at least a day, if not two, to 22 set up.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 MR. KOJAK: Well, the one point I wanted to 2 bring up if -- I mean, I just -- I missed the 3 beginning part of this, but I think I understand where 4 you're going. The time that it is sitting in the room 5 idle, waiting for the manufacturers to get the data 6 for us, how to set the programming, that billing then 7 goes to the DOE since it is just sitting in the room 8 doing nothing? 9 MR. MYERS: When they place the order, when 10 they get the unit, before you ever see it, they can 11 ask for this -- 12 MR. THARP: Well, Frank's comment was 13 instead of us -- the industry supplying all of this 14 information up front for every unit, that we just -- 15 that DOE, when they select a unit, just give us one 16 day to supply the data. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And I know that one of 18 the concerns is not letting everybody know when you 19 are testing their units. But VRF manufacturers are 20 going to know when you test every one of their units. 21 So -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: If we could find a way around

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 that. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: They come all the way from 3 Japan. 4 MR. WHITWELL: No, they don't. No. When 5 you test one of our units, it is going to be a guy 6 that works for me coming from Syracuse. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we must not have had 8 yours yet. 9 MR. STEPHENS: One of our little asterisks 10 is actually going to be a GPS tracking device. 11 MR. MYERS: Seriously, I would propose that 12 this not be at the front end, that this be -- and I 13 was not totally kidding. You know, if that makes DOE 14 more comfortable, then ask us for information on 15 random units several times a year. We don't know -- 16 we don't know which one is real and which one is not. 17 And give us five working days to cover people in the 18 U.S., plus people elsewhere, to respond and get it 19 back to you. And it's done before it gets to the lab, 20 or if it's one of the real ones -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: So your initial was 24 hours, 22 and it just keeps getting longer every time you say

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 it. 2 MR. MYERS: I said a day or a week. It had 3 been repeated as a day, and I was thinking about 4 overseeing -- manufacturers overseeing the time 5 differences, that sort of thing. 6 MR. THARP: And for me and, you know, some 7 of my -- our products within my corporation, some of 8 those would be contacting Japan for potential issues. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. That 10 would not preclude you from making those requests from 11 companies that you aren't intending to test at that 12 specific time, just so that may give you some more 13 comfort. 14 MR. THARP: Also put the fear in them, too; 15 right? 16 MR. MYERS: Trying to find some way to get 17 DOE -- because we understand. Trying to get DOE the 18 information they need and maintain as much of the 19 uncertainty for manufacturers, the secrecy, and still 20 not requiring this amount of workload and maintenance. 21 It seems like a reasonable time for -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what happens if you don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 provide it in the -- let's say it's 48 hours. What's 2 the -- what do we do? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Two hundred a day. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just automatically start 5 fining? I mean, I -- 6 MR. THARP: Start testing with what you 7 have. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we would -- 9 MR. THARP: Test with defaults. Go to the 10 400 CFM per ton. Put the onus on the manufacturer to 11 respond quickly. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then it fails the test, then 13 you come in in the second test, and then you say, "Oh, 14 you did all of this wrong." 15 MR. THARP: Make that part of the procedure. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we are just -- you know, 17 we will default to the second test all the time. 18 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that there is 19 any perfect way, but, I mean, to Frank's point, this 20 is -- hadn't really thought about the resources to put 21 this together for all of the products, but it -- 22 MR. THARP: And as he's talking about it,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 you know, one of the things that Phillip mentioned is, 2 you know, the ECNs and changes that happen, it's not 3 uncommon that you change components and we may -- as a 4 result, we may decrease our capacity from 120,000 to 5 115,000 on a certain model, because we change a 6 compressor or some other component in the system. And 7 that doesn't get updated here and we get dinged for 8 something of that nature. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Is the proposal that you are 10 going to get a call three or four or five times a year 11 from Laura saying, "Hey, send me some data or send me 12 your instructions on these models?" I'm not sure 13 where I'm seeing that that is going to relieve the 14 burden because you are going to be in a panic. Either 15 you don't have that information updated, you are going 16 to be in a panic going around and making sure it's 17 updated and trying to do that in a very short timeline 18 versus keeping it updated. 19 I mean, I'm all for trying to understand the 20 burden of keeping that. I'm not sure that I want that 21 phone call from Laura three or four times a year, 22 either, where management is going to get all in a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 panic because you've got to go through and review 2 everything again. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: And then it's just Russian 4 roulette. You don't know if it's the empty chamber or 5 the full chamber. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Right. It's really going to be 7

-- 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. I'm 9 sure that's different for different manufacturers 10 around the world, but I look at our staffing level and 11 the number of models and the number of alternate 12 controls. And, again, we don't make this, so I'm 13 talking generically. And for people -- other 14 manufacturers in the small customer side like we do 15 for water heaters and boilers, it would be an amazing 16 -- we'd have to hire somebody to make up for the cost 17 of doing this, because we have so many variables on so 18 many models. 19 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 20 guess going further, it -- you know, what is to harm - 21 - see, if you already have the unit, but the unit -- 22 then you let the manufacturer -- you inform the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 manufacturer, "Give me the instructions," what is the 2 harm of doing that? 3 MS. BARHYDT: So the way our system is set 4 up, we do one test. We don't have any other extra 5 units sitting around. So as soon as they know we have 6 selected a unit for test, I guarantee you every 7 manufacturer immediately takes whatever we selected, 8 and they put it into their own test chamber to make 9 sure that it's working just like they thought it was. 10 MR. WHITWELL: In a lot of cases that 11 wouldn't be physically possible. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: My labs are filled up with 13 developmental units. I can honestly say no. 14 MS. BARHYDT: I can honestly say that has 15 not been our experience. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Was that on commercial 17 equipment or on residential equipment? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Both. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Because residential equipment 20 you can probably pull out an inventory and do some 21 tests. With these you can't necessarily do that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe they wouldn't build a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 second one. I don't know. But it has happened in 2 residential and commercial. And no manufacturer is 3 going to take that -- their unit and not go -- let's 4 say it doesn't perform the way their AEDM predicted. 5 The odds of us getting more units that are truly not 6 subjected to additional quality control, additional 7 tweaks, anything, it's human nature. I'm not 8 attributing any malice. It's just -- it's human 9 nature. 10 So as soon as they know that that model has 11 been selected, they are going to start looking at it. 12 I mean, it's not -- no offense, but it's not like when 13 AHRI says we are going to test something. When DOE 14 says we are testing something, people react. 15 MR. KOJAK: I'd like to ask, when AHRI tests 16 and rates the units, is that documented somewhere, the 17 settings that it was run at by the lab -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 19 MR. KOJAK: -- that ran it? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 22 MR. KOJAK: It is?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 2 MR. KOJAK: So what if it's selected again 3 and you've changed a controller or something else, is 4 it the manufacturer who AHRI okayed to be there and 5 redo it and do everything the same way? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: We can witness test 7 everything. We can witness test everything in AHRI. 8 MR. WHITWELL: But the speeds are provided 9 to 10 AHRI -- 11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim again. 12 MR. WHITWELL: -- before the test. 13 MR. AMRANE: Going further, I think in most 14 cases for the product we're talking about here, it is 15 going to be very hard for you to find a unit -- or 16 several units in the market. So you probably will 17 have to order it through the manufacturer in most 18 cases anyway. 19 MS. BARHYDT: We have had commercial -- 20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I mean, maybe you -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: In the lower sizes, yes. 22 MR. AMRANE: But at some -- you know, most

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 cases, you probably -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: I recognize that there is a 3 very large -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. It's custom-made, I mean 5

-- 6 MR. MYERS: Laura, let me see if I can 7 combine what Karim just said with what you just said. 8 I think you've just said that for these commercial 9 products, with a very different distribution chain, 10 audit report process, we are trying to simulate a 11 blind test knowing we will fail. 12 MS. BARHYDT: No. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 14 MR. MYERS: You have just said that we are 15 not going to get a unit that hasn't been carefully 16 caressed and tuned. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. That's if they know 18 that we have selected an initial unit. 19 MS. BARHYDT: If they know that we've 20 selected it, which is why we want to do the testing 21 without -- 22 MR. SACHS: But a large fraction are going

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 to be built to order. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. But built to order 3 for what purpose? Because DOE called you up and said 4 they need three more or because -- 5 MR. SACHS: No, because maybe Cymbalsky 6 Distributors is more successful than I would be in -- 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we've been through this 8 with -- not this product, but there is another product 9 that has a similar supply chain issue with it, where 10 the one we were able to buy, you know, had some 11 serious issues. We couldn't get others without 12 getting the gold-plated version. 13 And, again, this is not accusing anyone of 14 anything, but that's just -- all of a sudden they're 15 like, "Oh, we need to build three for you? Yeah, we 16 can do that." Didn't perform anything like the first 17 one we bought off the shelf. Right? I mean, that's 18 exactly what happened. 19 MR. KOJAK: It's like a food critic. If a 20 food critic goes in a restaurant and he knows that he 21 can get a premium -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Yeah. You're going

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 to get a different plate of food. That's right. And 2 it's not accusatory. But like Laura said, it's human 3 nature that, you know, now you're going to have your A 4 group on the product, not your B group or whatever. 5 MR. SACHS: And we're saying the same thing, 6 that this is doing its best to emulate blind tests 7 with a full understanding of -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: It's the second part of that 9 that I don't agree with. 10 MR. SACHS: It's not blind if there is -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: It's not a guarantee that it 12 will fail. 13 MR. SACHS: I didn't say anything about 14 failure. I'm saying -- I was talking about the 15 process. 16 MS. BARHYDT: No. But your word was that 17 the process would fail. I didn't mean the unit would 18 fail. 19 MR. SACHS: I'll stand by what I said, 20 realizing I could be wrong. 21 I believe I heard a motion for adjournment. 22 MS. BARHYDT: I think everybody is leaving.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 (Whereupon, at 2:52 p.m., the 2 proceedings in the foregoing matter 3 were concluded.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 11 interest in this proceeding. 12 13 14 15

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that 5 I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using 6 the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 301Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-18-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that 5 I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using 6 the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302:7 correctly51:5 52:19 106:5 272:6corrosionresistant 15:22 16:8,10 cost73:18 292:16 costly284:20 costs 11:16 111:17 Council3:11 counter214:18 216:10 country13:16 46:15 280:18 couple 11:12 13:12 64:3 68:4 98:17 170:20 222:17 course52:18 76:13 207:7 Court300:1,3,17 301:3,6 302:3,6 courtesy 240:13 cover42:13 66:13 88:12 159:18 217:20 288:17 covered28:1 49:17 51:13 58:13 67:15,16 75:7,20 109:14 121:22 122:7 123:2 214:17 217:17 218:21 221:3,11 225:22 232:8,13 240:9 covering61:22 138:6 covers 15:19 58:22 218:6,19 220:2 225:16

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