## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC

COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONING

WORKING GROUP MEETING

May 12, 2015 2111 Wilson Boulevard 8:00 a.m.

Reported by: Donna Peterson

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Edward Bantle 3 James Battaglia 4 John Cymbalsky 5 Pete Cochran 6 Katie Coughlin 7 Adam Darmington 8 Andrew deLaski 9 Paul Doppel 10 Eileen Hoffman 11 Jill Hootman 12 Long Huang 13 Marshall Hunt 14 Richard Lord 15 Michael McCabe 16 Karen Meyers 17 Nick Mislak 18 Greg Rosenquist 19 Harvey Sachs 20 Michael Shows – via telephone 21 Louis Starr 22

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 Eric Stas 3 Mark Terzigni 4 Rusty Tharp 5 Meg Waltner – via telephone 6 Detlef Westphanen 7 Robert Whitwell 8 Alison Williams 9 Dave Winningham 10 Xing Xu 11 Sami Zendah 12 13 14 15 16 ALSO PRESENT: Emily Marchetti, Webinar Master 17 18 19 20 21 22

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BANTLE: Good morning, everyone. 3 My name is Ted Bantle, as always. Hasn't 4 changed since yesterday. 5 The first thing we would like to do, just 6 standard, we'll go around the room, take attendance 7 and then we'll get started. I believe we're starting 8 with DOE folks going through some more energy 9 analysis. So let's start off with attendance. We'll 10 start off with the main table and then go around, go 11 around the edges. 12 Ted Bantle, Federal Mediation. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 14 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez, Federal 15 Mediation. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen, 17 Navigant. 18 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, Emerson. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 20 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 21 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI. 22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 MR. WINNINGHAM: David Winningham, Allied. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 3 MR. DeLaski: Andrew Delaski, Appliance 4 Standards Awareness Project. 5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. 7 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, California IOU. 8 MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Barkas Hoffman, FMCS. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 11 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, LBNL. 12 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, DOE. 13 MR. McCABE: Mike McCabe, contract to 14 Trane. 15 MR. BANTLE: And people on the line, 16 Emily, do we have any working group members on the 17 line? 18 MS. MARCHETTI: John, Meg and Michael 19 Shows. 20 MR. BANTLE: Okay, John, Meg and Michael 21 on the line, thank you very much. 22 Okay. Any questions, comments?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 I'll turn it over to DOE. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Before we go to that -- I 3 hate to go back. Bob Whitwell, from Carrier. I 4 think my mic is on here. 5 I think it was Detlef, showed us the new 6 levels to be looked at for the 12.2 and the 2.5. I 7 was looking at that last night, and I noticed that 8 with the 15-ton, the EL1 levels changed from where 9 they were before. And the EL 4 changed only 10 slightly, but I didn't know if that was a typo or if 11 there was a reason for making those changes. And 12 then there was also a change in the next stack 30 13 ton. 14 MS. COUGHLIN: Which slide? 15 MR. WHITWELL: So I will pick one. 16 So 15 ton, so 25 would work. BEGIN NOTE 17 you believe the original level at 15 ton was 12.2 and 18 here it's showing 12.4. And the EL4 level was 18.4 19 and here it is showing 18.5. Indoor heat exchangers 20 and fans. 21 MR. BATTAGLIA: I'm -- this is James 22 Battaglia, from Navigant.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 12.4 is to the 90.13 level. The EL1 for 2 15 tons is now based on the ASHRAE 91.1 2013 levels. 3 So that was updated. The number was based on a 4 draft. BEGIN NOTE since November. The EL -- is it 5 four, they said? 6 MR. WHITWELL: EL4. 7 MR. BATTAGLIA: I think that was based on 8 the product availability of models at that level 9 based on. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: EL4 for 15 ton? 11 MR. WHITWELL: EL4 for 15 ton. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I didn't know it was 13 18.4. Yeah, I think that was based on product 14 availability. 15 MR. WHITWELL: And then on the 30-ton EL4 16 was 15.5 and the new EL5, which I thought was the -- 17 would be the same, is -- went from -- went to 15.6, 18 rather than 15.5. So may I not -- big differences 19 but they are differences and I guess I'd like us to 20 be have a chance to talk about those would have 21 been -- I think it would have been good to have 22 brought those up yesterday when we are dealing with

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 those numbers. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: To highlight that. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I apologize, I didn't 5 highlight that. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John, from DOE. 7 While you guys had your informal conversations, I 8 also asked them to do the normal updates so that when 9 we sat down to this table, everything was at the 10 go-forward stage. So we got public comment on the 11 NOPR. We did work in-between this and when the NOPR, 12 you know, comment period ended, and so, again, 13 apologize for not pointing out all the changes. But 14 there was quite a bit of work, not just what's been 15 talked about in this room but our normal work that we 16 would have done anyway, absent the negotiations. And 17 so as James pointed out, the ASHRAE, we would have 18 done that anyway because that's something that 19 changed between the NOPR analysis and today. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, changed between 21 the -- I mean -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: It became final.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, before the NOPR but 2 changed since you started working on the NOPR. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. 4 So there's going to be lots of little things like 5 that. We didn't prepare a slide that stepped through 6 every major change and things like that. BEGIN NOTE 7 BEGIN NOTE. 8 MR. WHITWELL: To be fair, I think it 9 would be nice to point those out because we've been 10 looking at it based on what was in the NOPR and now 11 things are are changing, we need to understand that 12 where things changed, we need to understand that as 13 we go through this process. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fair. And I think 15 what you'll see are the tables, Greg will show all 16 the numbers to you in LDC tables, every number.xxxx 17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Fair enough. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'll point that out 19 now. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But that's a good 21 point. We -- we did, like I said, a fair amount of 22 work. We didn't -- we didn't want to come to the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 table with a -- what we thought was not our best 2 effort to refresh the data set. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay, so as John mentioned, 4 we've made some updates, so I will be going through 5 the updates that have been made to the energy use 6 analysis. I'm going to go through, I guess through 7 three items, I'm going to refresh your memory about 8 what this generalized fielding sample is and give you 9 some information on how we've updated that and then 10 I'm going to present the new energy use calculations 11 and then I will discuss very briefly this sensitivity 12 that we're plan to do with regards to the loading of 13 the units. 14 So the energy use, to remind you, the 15 energy use is the life cycle costs, and it feeds from 16 the life cycle cost into the national impact 17 analysis. So I'm not sure if we need to revisit this 18 slide. Greg went over this with you yesterday 19 morning. This is just a list of the things that we 20 had discussed in the previous meeting that we have 21 now implemented in the current analysis. So if 22 there's no questions on this, I will just move on to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 the next. Okay, so for the generalized building 2 sample, again, this is essentially a requirement of 3 the LCC. The LCC looks at sort of a large number of 4 air conditioners that are placed in different types 5 of buildings and looks at the only rating 6 characteristics and operating costs and we made this 7 END NOTE if you're familiar with the CBECS, the 8 Commercial Building Energy Consumption Surveys, a 9 single build willing have many demographic features, 10 such as a location, which in CBECS is a census 11 division, a climate zone, building activity, 12 ownership tight, a vintage. 13 There's a sample weight and then there's a 14 very long list of features associated with the 15 building in CBECS. Those include floor space, number 16 of floors, occupancy, schedules. BEGIN NOTE and then 17 there's additional information on the system 18 features, such as cooling and heating equipment, air 19 handling systems and et cetera. So there are several 20 hundred fields in the CBECS. 21 And the generalized building is a similar 22 concept in that we're only taking those fields that

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 are first-order relevant to the air conditioning 2 energy use. This is partly to avoid trying to read 3 too much information into a limited sample. So for 4 our generalized building, it's essentially if 5 features that we care about are the region, the 6 location the building is in, the building activity, 7 the floor space, the vintage and we have added this 8 flag to represent whether the building air handling 9 system is variable air volume or constant air volume. 10 So when we have the LCC sample, if you 11 have ever looked at an LCC spreadsheet, there's 12 usually 10,000 samples in a single LCC run and each 13 one of those represents an air conditioner of a given 14 capacity that's gone into one of these generalized 15 buildings. And there will be some additional 16 information attached to that. There's a discount 17 rate and lifetime that are calculated from 18 distributions within the LCC. And when we sample the 19 different rows in the LCC, there's a weight attached 20 to each one of these generalized buildings, and that 21 is the sort of expected number of units that would go 22 in that category. So it's dominated, for example, by

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 office space and retail. Those are the two building 2 types that have most, most of these air conditioners. 3 And then the regional variation goes roughly with 4 population. 5 So, again, just to recap, the building 6 characteristics we're modeling exclusively in this 7 analysis are region, building activity, building size 8 and vintage. And the reasons why we've chosen those 9 fields are summarized at the top, the region 10 influences climate and also electricity price. 11 Building inactivity influences load, that sort of 12 thing. The building size is fully influenced by 13 electricity price. They tend to be larger for larger 14 buildings. 15 The vintage is how likely will it have a 16 variable air volume system. BEGIN NOTE the air 17 system is internal loads. 18 END NOTE I have a list of the actual 19 values associated with each of these fields. I guess 20 the highlights are we are, for regions we have nine 21 census divisions, plus we have taken the Pacific 22 census division and split it into the northwest and

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 California. And relative to the NOPR, we now have 2 four vintage categories, so we've sort of updated the 3 floor space sample using the EEO projection to try to 4 represent the building stock in 2019. So we have 5 added, we have four vintage categories, sort of 6 pre-1979, 1980 to 1999, 2000 to 2012 and 2013 to 7 2019. To the CBECS that we used in the energy use 8 give a reasonable representation of the first two 9 vintage categories. BEGIN NOTE. 10 And to generate the second two we used 11 thighs multipliers that came from AEO that 12 essentially scaled the cooling loads relative to a 13 given base year. So this is just a recap of the 14 inputs. So essentially the main difference with the 15 NOPRs, we have CBECS 2012 information now that we're 16 able to use to get the various percentages of 17 building floor space by these different categories 18 and we've updated to the AEO 2015 for the floor space 19 projections. 20 As I mentioned, we now have these two new 21 vintage categories. We don't have enough information 22 to really kind of characterize the projection of

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 buildings according to size or how many are gonna 2 have VIV, so for now, those are assumed to be 3 constant in the different vintage categories. And 4 pretty much that's it. And then the cooling load 5 factors I will get to in a moment. This is a picture 6 of the old floor space. These are the regions along 7 the bottom and the vintages. We have quite a lot of 8 variability across these different fields. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So has this changed much 10 from the last time? 11 MS. COUGHLIN: No. I compared our 12 estimate of 2012 to -- so the estimate that we felt 13 that the floor space in 2012 to the CBECS and it as 14 actually pretty close. The main difference is 15 there's quite a bit more warehouse was actually 16 constructed than we had predicted. But the other 17 ones are within a few percent of one another. 18 MR. SACHS: Katie, this is Harvey. What's 19 my Y axis on 55? 20 MS. COUGHLIN: It is, I think, a million 21 square feet. 22 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 MR. STARR: This is Louis. To help, since 2 2000, in general, I guess if you were to sum up all 3 of this and have one number, how much of construction 4 on a percentage basis is from 2000 newer and how much 5 is 2000 and older? 6 MS. COUGHLIN: Do I know that off the top 7 of my head? I'm gonna guess ten percent, 15, 15 8 percent. 9 MR. STARR: Okay. 10 MR. STARR: Should I ask how you project 11 that in the future or is that coming up? 12 MS. COUGHLIN: AEO does it. 13 MR. STARR: What? 14 MS. COUGHLIN: AEO does it. 15 MR. STARR: For 30 years down the road, 16 right? 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. What I did here to 18 create the category 2000-2012, I just took the new 19 floor space added in AEO in each of those years and 20 summed it up. Same thing for 2013 to 2019. 21 MR. STARR: I mean, if you were just 22 guessing, think about it, ten percent of floor space

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 is new in the last 15 years, right, 2000? If you 2 were to project that forward you would say that 20 3 percent will be new in the next -- 20 percent more 4 new building stock in the next 30 years, right? 5 Because it's -- 6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 7 MR. STARR: You see what I'm saying? 8 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. 9 MR. STARR: So basically at tends of the 10 30-year period it will be 30 percent new buildings 11 or -- or 70 percent old buildings. 12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Assuming the 13 northwest, it's like we had almost 20 percent augment 14 between the 2000-2012. 15 MR. STARR: I'm talking about the total. 16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. It's highly 17 variable. There are construction booms and busts. 18 And so depending on where you drop your year 19 category, it can be also variable. 20 MR. STARR: I see. 21 MS. COUGHLIN: You can actually, you know, 22 this is all in the AEO, if you really want to know

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 what their forecast looks like, it's easy -- it's 2 probably easier to just look at that than to ask me. 3 So let me go to the next. So these are the -- these 4 factors that scale the cooling load. 5 So, again, what I did is each year, AEO 6 produce as time series of this number, which is a -- 7 it's a used to scale the cooling load relative to a 8 base year by region and by building type. So for the 9 period 2000 to 2012, I took the floor spate weighted 10 average of each one of those cooling factors for each 11 of these categories. So you get this array of 12 numbers and I think the national average for this 13 period is about 89 percent, meaning that the cooling 14 load for this vintage category is about 90 percent of 15 what it would have been in the previous vintage 16 category. And, again, there's a lot of variability 17 with region and building type. 18 MR. STARR: So how are you coming -- 19 sorry, Louis Starr again. How are you coming up with 20 the cooling load factor? How -- 21 MS. COUGHLIN: It's AEO publishes that 22 number.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 MR. STARR: Oh. How do you think they 2 come up with it? 3 MS. COUGHLIN: They have a combination of 4 shell improvements, internal loads, equipment 5 improvements. So the AEO does a projection of 6 equipment efficiency, shell characteristics -- so. 7 MR. STARR: So they use an argue model and 8 they take the current, figure out what the 9 characteristics of the current building are and new 10 construction and look at those relative weights of 11 the old construction, new construction, come up with 12 that factor. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 14 MR. STARR: Okay. 15 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. They have a full 16 cost-based estimate of new construction decisions 17 about what type of shell envelope characteristics to 18 put in and equipment efficiency trends and all that, 19 so -- 20 So then I have the same table of numbers 21 for your information on -- and this is for the 22 2000 -- that should say 2013 to 2019. And, again,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 there's lot of variability. There's fairly 2 aggressive improvements in region nine, which is the 3 Pacific, and they're more moderate in other regions. 4 The national average for this number comes out to be 5 I think 78 percent. 6 MR. THARP: That's 78 percent of the 2000 7 prior. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: 78 percent to a base year, 9 which is '99. So essentially relative to the vintage 10 category two. That's what this number is being used 11 for. 12 MR. THARP: Thank you. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 14 I'm going to put my EIA BEGIN NOTE hat on for a 15 moment because I worked there for 20 years. 16 The one maybe thing to think about here 17 with the way they do their building shell 18 improvements, they -- they do assume a hundred 19 percent compliance is implicit in their analysis to 20 building codes. So they have -- they have staged 21 adoption which we discussed yesterday in great 22 detail. But what I think is an issue and we're not

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 gonna fix this, but I just want to point out, is that 2 they do assume a hundred percent compliance, which, 3 in my mind, we know what that number is probably more 4 like. We saw some numbers. Greg put them up 5 yesterday. For better for worse, those numbers are 6 baked in to what we see here. 7 So when we see, you know, Katie mention 8 the 19 percent improvement or whatever it was, when 9 we get to the compliance stage, that's a big number 10 because they're assuming a hundred percent compliance 11 in states that have adopted 90.1. And so if 12 anything, we know these numbers are overstating. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Optimistic. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Quite a bit in some 15 regions the impact of the building code. So the 16 loads that -- in my mind, the loads -- and, again, we 17 are not gonna be able to tackle this issue before 18 June 15. The loads are lower than they probably 19 should be, all else equal. Just wanted to point that 20 out. That's a fact. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: John -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Residentials are the same

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 way. I know because I programmed it, it's the way it 2 is. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: John, this is Jill Hootman 4 from Trane. 5 Do they also reject future pros and 6 standards and then it's also 100 percent compliance 7 in the future? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: They do. What they do do 9 well, I think, is the adoption at each stage, so they 10 got that part tied down good. But you know, EIA's 11 position on compliance is not going to be that we 12 don't think people are gonna comply with the law, 13 right, so they don't try to get to that for good 14 reason. But I just want everyone in the room to 15 understand I know we spent a lot of time arguing 16 about what the load should be. 17 I can tell you factually that just because 18 of that one assumption in their modeling, these 19 numbers could be higher. The load should be okay. 20 MR. STARR: The other aspect is assuming 21 that stuff stays the way you actually -- when you 22 build the building that it stays like it was built,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 and that's usually not the case, too. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's -- 3 MR. STARR: So the persistance of all the 4 things that are in there are highly, like the 5 commenter, there are a whole bunch of aspects of it. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The reason I pointed out 7 because I know we made a big point about, you know, 8 penetration of economize. BEGIN NOTE I think all of 9 that stuff cancels that out to a large degree, if not 10 more. So I'd be careful about focusing too much on 11 all that level of detail, trying to run with what we 12 have. BEGIN NOTE. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. Any other comments? 14 MS. HOFFMAN: Just a question. Eileen 15 Hoffman. 16 Did you mean 2013, not 2003? 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I meant 2013. 18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: So this is -- 20 MR. STARR: Sorry. I didn't -- I didn't 21 realize it. So that's in the next -- this is Louis 22 star again. So that's in the next six years,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 you're -- the fact that is being applied to the old 2 vintage? So let's take census one. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: This is the period 2013 to 4 2019, relative to 1999. 5 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 6 Xxxxthat's 2013? 7 MS. COUGHLIN: 2013. Our vintage category 8 two from the 2013 sample, I'm going to apply these 9 multipliers to that. 10 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So the whole 11 generalized building thing is really just to give 12 weights associated with these different installation 13 conditions you can have for the air conditioner and 14 the actual energy use of an air conditioner is taken 15 from this sample of the 1033 buildings that were 16 simulated for the previous rule. So what we do to 17 sort of align these two sets of information, take the 18 1033 building and essentially assign these buildings 19 to one of these three categories. And take the CUAC 20 load per ton category across all the buildings that 21 are in there and use that to represent the 22 generalized buildings BEGIN NOTE.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, again. 2 In that chart, we saw where we saw the 3 nine census zone and then the occupancy types, those 4 are the zones, you're developing weightings for each 5 one of those, that matrix, is that what you're 6 saying? 7 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 8 MR. STARR: Okay. 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. Because of 10 limitations in the data, we can't sort of fully 11 resolve everything. So we focus with did 1033 12 buildings on building type, region and vintage only. 13 So -- and then as I said, so basically so I can take, 14 say, office buildings in New England and I take all 15 the office buildings that are in New England that are 16 in the sample and they have weights associated with 17 them relative to the CBECS 95, and then I take a 18 weighted average of how those loads were scaled to 19 per unit, and that becoming my representative load 20 for an office building in New England. And then if 21 I -- I have the vintage categories one and two 22 already in CBECS, and then to make the vintage

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 category three, I multiply by that first multiplier, 2 to make the category four, I multiply by the second 3 multiplier. 4 MR. STARR: I have a question. 5 So on the sample, you have a thousand thirty-three, 6 and what you're saying is that is not enough 7 buildings really to have a statistical sample enough 8 so you have to fill in the holes with some 9 assumptions on that, is that what you're saying? Or 10 is 1033 enough to fill out that matrix? 11 MS. COUGHLIN: 1033 essentially gives me 12 region, building type and vintage category. 13 MR. STARR: Okay. 14 MS. COUGHLIN: Occasionally there might be 15 something missing and I have to do a bit of patch but 16 it's mostly okay. 17 MR. STARR: Okay. 18 MS. COUGHLIN: But is it a little bit, 19 again -- 20 MR. STARR: So you get that for all the 21 vintage stuff you have, you project forward with 22 those factors and that gives you a sample.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 2 MR. STARR: As the thing will be in 2019. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. 4 MR. STARR: Okay. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: Again, to do the building 6 size and the type of air handler system, we just use 7 percentage distributions from CBECS 2012 because 8 that's our latest data set. Because AEO does not 9 project out to that level of detail. And then the 10 only other footnote to this is that we -- we filter 11 the buildings so that you're not putting a 30-ton 12 unit in a building that only needs ten tons of 13 cooling. And we also filtered for this version of 14 the analysis, for are the seven and a half ton 15 sample, we also filtered out multi-story buildings. 16 We felt it inappropriate to put a lot of seven and a 17 half ton units on a tall building. 18 So -- 19 MR. STARR: That kind of addresses, we 20 were talking about that yesterday, particularly the 21 office building in Chicago, the one we looked at for 22 a long time.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 That was a really tall building. The idea of putting 2 seven and a half tons on a 15-story office building, 3 populating that building didn't make a lot of sense. 4 So that's what that's for. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: Uh-huh. 6 Okay. So then the last item to describe 7 is the -- we discussed in the working group, we 8 discussed issues with the cooling load factors. And 9 then the fan power calculations are actually have 10 changed much more significantly for a couple of 11 reasons. Number one is we're now, we were previously 12 using the minimum stage for the fan when the system 13 was in heating mode and now we're using the maximum 14 stage, based on input. The NOPR calculations used, 15 to estimate the way the fan power would change 16 according to the external. It used a linear 17 relationship to temperature instead of using stage. 18 That can actually under estimate fan power in certain 19 regions. So we've now converted that to using the 20 stage that the system is operating in. But the 21 biggest change, by far, is introducing building ESPs 22 that are higher than the test procedure ESP.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 So the seven and half ton test procedure is 0.25 and 2 the 15 ton is 0.35. And the BLAST simulation data 3 has a.75 or 1.25 ESP assigned to each building. So 4 Navigant generated fan power curves for their 7.75 5 and 1.25, BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE which we're using in 6 the energy calculation. For the sake of getting some 7 kind of number to look at the effect of the 8 conversion curve that has been discussed, we added 9 the .2 for all buildings when we hit EL3 and higher. 10 So, again, that's something that has been 11 discussed and we can revisit it. What we will talk 12 about today has that building sample and you get that 13 .2, so the fan power will increase a lot when you add 14 the additional pressure, so it kind of moderates the 15 energy efficiency savings when you go to EL3 and up. 16 MR. STARR: So I have a question about 17 that. You know, so I think I understand why you use 18 .75 and 1.25, you pulled out the BLAST model that was 19 using the energy simulation, so the thought is that's 20 how you generate the relative proportion to fan to 21 compressor energy. And so you went back to the BLAST 22 model and used the same external pressures, which

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 makes sense, in a way. But one of the thing I would 2 say is even in, you know, I think lords favorite 90.1 3 model a small commercial office building which would 4 be -- I don't know exactly the square footage but he 5 is using 2.5 not 3xxx. They use a total static 6 pressure of 2.5 which is a lot greater than 1.25 and 7 .75. So I'm not really concerned about -- I mean it 8 would be nice if you used a higher fan energy. 9 What I'm more concerned about the relative weights of 10 your external static pressure to conversion curve 11 which we now know is going to go up. Because what it 12 does is essentially it disfavors higher EL levels 13 because they have conversion curves. So if you 14 disproportionately -- in other words, if you miss the 15 static pressure by a factor of two but you don't miss 16 the static pressure on the conversion curve by a 17 factor of two, it unfairly disadvantages the higher 18 EL levels. So I'm okay with the .757 and the 1.25. 19 But if you're going to stay at those numbers then you 20 also need to adjust your conversion, your pressure 21 drop conversion curve down. You either need to move 22 up to .7 or the 1.25 and and the convery curve or you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 need to drop them proportion. 2 Do you see what I'm saying? 3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I understand. 4 MR. STARR: Okay. Lou, sorry. 5 One last thing I was going to say. While 6 you were talking about the AO -- AE -- AEO 7 projections, I want to ask you that question about in 8 the last year or the last 15 years how much is new 9 construction and I said projected that forward. You 10 can use that same thing for predicting your incidence 11 of conversion curve for EL 3, right? Because new 12 construction, you're not going to have conversion 13 curve, so you can use that to predict the curve of -- 14 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. Actually we will do 15 that -- we will do that based on the shipments model. 16 We will use the shipments model on the base versus 17 new construction and then we can find that weight. 18 BEGIN NOTE yes. 19 MR. STARR: Okay. Then also embedded in 20 that is just that not every single new replacement 21 unit necessarily needs a conversion curve or -- well, 22 actually maybe that's not true. So --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Listen, we can implement a 2 fraction of buildings get ago conversion curve. 3 That is not a difficult thing to implement. It's 4 just a question of what is the fraction going to be. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you contending the 6 new construction would require the conversion 7 curvexx? 8 MS. COUGHLIN: I think he is saying not 9 all replacements require a new conversion curb. 10 MR. STARR: In other words, if you were 11 going to project forward shipments, by the end of 12 that period how much will be new construction or how 13 much of that sample or thing are new construction, 14 those don't need conversion curbs in addition the 15 replacement units don't necessarily need conversion 16 curves, either. That part becomes a little harder to 17 figure out what that is. But the new construction is 18 a little straightforward. 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 20 And the example I think of, which is 21 probably not overly common, is the kind of depressure 22 that we occasionally see in both offices and schools,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 where you're doing enough shell work that you can 2 downsize, the loads are reduced, consequently, you 3 can replace the old larger unit with a new smaller 4 unit at higher efficiency that may still fit the same 5 curve, even though it's an EL3 or 5, reduce the loads 6 consequently. 7 MR. STARR: And, you know, the other thing 8 to think about, too, is that in your shipments, 9 you're predicting a much lower shipments in the 10 future, and so I don't know if that jibes with the 11 AEO projection. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: We used the base case 13 shipments. 14 MR. STARR: Okay. All right. We use AEO 15 has been put to the shipments model so they're all 16 consistent. 17 MR. STARR: I see. 18 MS. COUGHLIN: We can get a better 19 estimate because we have the actual turnover in the 20 shipments model. 21 Moving on to the numbers. So I'm using 22 CAV, VAV because I'm thinking of the building. But

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 really this is the staged air volume for the actual 2 design of staged air volume. So essentially, so we 3 have the NOPR numbers. So this is the average annual 4 kit Watt hours per unit. And we have the cooling and 5 then the fan and then the total would be for the NOPR 6 on the left and the revised analysis on the right. 7 So you can see the fan energy increases. If you look 8 at the engineering data for ESB, for seven and a half 9 tons, for both capacities, when you go from test 10 procedure to .75, the fan power goes up by 50 11 percent. When you go to 1.25, it goes up by a 12 hundred percent. 13 MR. STARR: Yeah. So, you know, the 14 reason I'm harping on this is if you think when we're 15 talking about .75 and 1.25, you double that number 16 again, you see those numbers you just mentioned will 17 double yet again. So that as why I think this is a 18 pretty important number to get ahold of because I 19 think it will show that a lot of the energy used in a 20 piece of equipment is really fan energy and it's not 21 reflected in the test procedure. 22 Q. There was a load factor error in the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 cooling load calculation in the NOPR, so that's one 2 of the reasons why there's a big change. 3 MR. THARP: That's what was discussed at 4 the March 19th meeting, LBNL. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: What's the issue with the 6 seven and a half ton on the load factors? There was 7 some -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, the way we were 9 calculating load -- hi, Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 10 One thing that Rusty saw when we were in 11 Berkeley is that, you know, our cooling factor was so 12 messed up and it resulted in, I think, a 50 percent 13 reduction in cooling delivered by the time you got to 14 EL5 -- EL4 for seven and a half tons. And it was so 15 dramatic because we started out with a one-stage 16 baseline, we were moving to multiple stages at the 17 max tax. So it wasn't as dramatic an effect on 15 18 tons because the staging was xxxtwo-stage throughout. 19 Yeah that was a big correction and it really affected 20 you know why you went from 13,000 in the base case, 21 baseline to 3500 at EL4 for the NOPR. 22 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So there's a number

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 of things -- let's see, does this work? No. So we 2 can see, for example, the relative size of -- I mean 3 the magnitude of energy savings from here to here has 4 gone down a bit, it's -- this was 10,000 this, is now 5 6,000. But if we go to our new EL5, we're up to 6 9,000 again, so it's somewhat comparable. You can 7 see the difference between having the staged versus 8 constant air volume in the fan power just at EL1 and 9 EL2. 10 There is, let's see, EL3 is where the 11 conversion curve comes in, so the fan power does 12 actually go up a little bit. And then, you know, 13 there are continuing refinements that we will be 14 making to the energy use analysis, so these are not 15 fixed numbers but sort of getting the order of 16 magnitude. And then for 15-ton -- 17 MR. STARR: So actually if you go back to 18 that last one, so if we look at the total on the far 19 right, as you go up on EL 3 levels, the amount of 20 energy is actually going up, three to 3.54. 21 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 22 MR. STARR: So how -- if you look at 14.8

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 and you go to 19.9, if you were to go out and it 2 means your most efficient unit and they say okay 3 here's our 19.9 and you were to look -- well, 4 actually let's do the 15.8, as opposed to 14.8, you 5 actually see the higher IEER uses more energy than 6 the 14.8 IEER. That's -- so -- 7 MS. COUGHLIN: Test procedure is not the 8 same as the energy analysis, right? 9 MR. STARR: Well, this is the important of 10 the external static pressure because I can tell you 11 the higher efficiency unit uses less energy than the 12 lower efficiency unit. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: The design -- 14 MR. STARR: Or does it? 15 actually that's a good question for the manufacturer. 16 Does the higher efficiency unit use more energy than 17 the lower efficiency unit? 18 MR. THARP: Again, the reality as you 19 stated, the test procedure does not include 20 ventilation energy. So there's a disconnect. The 21 reality is there's a disconnect between the way it's 22 tested and the way it's applied for total energy

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 consumption. 2 MR. STARR: Wow. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: So the proportion of fan 4 energy will be much lower in the test procedure so 5 that's why -- 6 MR. STARR: I'll argue in the real world 7 you'll save more energy in the 15.8. Is that what 8 you're saying? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 10 MR. THARP: Yes, but will you save energy. 11 MR. DeLASKI: This is the real-world 12 number. 13 MR. STARR: They have the external 14 pressure wrong. Typically real world, when they 15 adjust static pressures up to real world, you will 16 save energy. That's what I suggest. 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Possibly not. Because the 18 test procedure weights the fan energy less. So if 19 you are not improving the fan as much, say -- say the 20 difference between EL3 and EL3.5 is that EL3.5 does 21 haven't as many improvements on the fan but it has 22 much better improvements on the cooling, if you put

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 that in a situation where the fan energy use is much 2 higher than what the test procedure is, you're gonna 3 get worse performance. 4 MR. STARR: What will happen is your base 5 rates will come up on the relative magnitude of this 6 conversion. What's making this worse, 13,000 to 7 13709 is the conversion curve, right? 8 MS. COUGHLIN: No. They both have 9 conversion curves. 10 MR. STARR: They both have conversions. 11 MS. COUGHLIN: They both come in at EL 3. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought you said. 13 MR. STARR: 2.5 does, 3.5 doesn't. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, from Carrier. 15 My understanding is that the designs are 16 different that are used for the 14.8 versus the 15.8, 17 right? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes. 19 MR. WHITWELL: So that's why you're seeing 20 difference. So whatever the design they're using as 21 a base, there's different tradeoffs between fan power 22 and refrigeration system design.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: So you know, it's just -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: They prescribed an 4 engineering design and it's what we will use. 5 MR. WHITWELL: The way the analysis is 6 done, using existing designs that are at certain 7 levels depending on what that manufacturer did to get 8 to that EEER level is gonna have different -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us might do it in 10 fans, some of us might do it in refrigeration. 11 MR. STARR: It's very unintuitive, I'll 12 say, because you go from 14.0 to 14.9 and look at 13 your total energy is. Actually the 14.5, the 14.5 up 14 to 19.9. So you jump a lot in your IEER but really, 15 you went down a hundred, I don't know, whatever that 16 is, 174 Btu's out of 13,000. So it's like .00 -- .01 17 percent. But you jumped in -- you jumped almost 25 18 percent in IEER, but you actually only reduced your 19 energy by one percent. So it's -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: All in your choices in what 21 you do in the development and there were choices. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think you get a

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 diminishing returns thing, right. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 3 MR. WHITWELL: If you get up to the 4 negative level. 5 MR. DeLASKI: This isn't a diminishing 6 return, this is a bigger return. BEGIN NOTE. 7 MR. WHITWELL: It is a matter of design. 8 They're not the same design. 9 MR. DeLASKI: To me, you see that number. 10 That's a disturbing set of numbers. 11 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I'm just 12 trying to explain why the number would be different. 13 I don't know what -- 14 MR. DeLASKI: If I were a distribution 15 maybe. 16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know what is behind 17 this, but I think that's probably what is going on. 18 It's a different -- 19 MR. STARR: Actually California has 20 complained about this, they give rebates on maybe 21 good. 22 MR. HUNT: It's a big problem.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 MR. STARR: They give the rebates on the 2 energy levels. I have never seen think it bad. 3 Except they were expressing a 25 percent reduction in 4 energy use and they only get ten. BEGIN NOTE END 5 NOTE. 6 And actually, EPA has done quite a bit on 7 that. BEGIN NOTE yeah, this magnitude isn't quite 8 that bad. 9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I want to 10 rant. 11 We ain't gonna fix this between now and 12 June 15th, but we do have a strategic issue that IER 13 is a big improvement but it still ain't fixed all the 14 problems nor the consulting engineer trying to choose 15 the right equipment and for the equipment designer 16 trying to meet the customer needs and the rating 17 needs. There's lots of opportunity for work after 18 June 15th. 19 MR. WHITWELL: No question. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No question. 21 MR. DeLASKI: I agree with that. I'm 22 still not convinced I understand -- I know I don't

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 understand. I'm not convinced we understand why 2 these numbers are following this pattern. I mean the 3 IER metric is part of it, but I'm not convinced it is 4 all of it -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Go back in. 6 MR. DeLASKI: I understand we're not going 7 to change IEER and that was part of the ground rules 8 when we went into this final rule, although I hope we 9 do have some forward plan, as Harvey is suggesting, 10 to address the energy. But what I'm hearing also is 11 to -- and there are some other -- so there are two 12 things that -- you threads that I'm trying to figure 13 out. One is that it may be the particular unit that 14 was picked, I mean there is some unit that has been 15 selected to -- to model this, right. And maybe 16 that -- so is that unit somehow anomalous or was it 17 a -- was it a good choice, I guess. And then the 18 other question I would have -- 19 MS. MEYERS: I would give that -- it's a 20 seven and a half ton unit so I don't no that there's 21 a lot of -- I would say -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's in the engineering,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 what you pick. 2 MR. DeLASKI: That's not the question. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: Do you want to look at the 4 link nearing? 5 MR. DeLASKI: My second question is, back 6 to Louis's point that he has been raising repeatedly, 7 are we not capturing, the selection of the external 8 static pressure is having an effect here and is the 9 relative impact of the curve BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 10 MR. STARR: Yeah. I was -- 11 MR. DeLASKI: And how does that load flow 12 through. 13 MR. STARR: I haven't fully digested what 14 Katie said, I'm still thinking about it but she was 15 indicating she didn't think -- a higher static -- a 16 more realistic static may still see the same 17 characteristics of what we're seeing in that chart. 18 Is that kind of what you were saying or 19 you're not sure but your sense is -- 20 MS. COUGHLIN: In the test procedure, you 21 have the cooling energy plus the fan energy because 22 the total energy that you use to get the basis. If I

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 go from one level, I have the option of improving 2 either one of them. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 4 MS. COUGHLIN: I can decrease the fan 5 energy. If I can increase the cooling energy, I can 6 decrease the fan energy and maybe, when I go to a 7 situation where the fan energy is twice as big as it 8 was in the test proceeds ire, I no long very that 9 ratio. That's why you need to see independently the 10 efficiency improvements on the two components to 11 really be able to understand where the -- you're sort 12 of in a two-dimensional space in reality and we're 13 drawing a line through it. 14 MR. STARR: It would be great if the 15 higher levels had fan technology, as opposed to 16 compressor technology. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef 18 Westphalen. 19 At the field ESP two, the one and a 20 quarter, you know, at the high stage, I've got for 21 the two and a half, I've got 1200 watts of indoor fan 22 than the EL three, I've got 12.4. And the EL 3.5,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 I've got 1504. 2 MR. STARR: This is not the conversion 3 curve. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's one and a half, 1.25. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's one and a quarter. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: This design uses those fans 7 and this is taking the fan power at those fans. 8 MR. STARR: This is the unit independent 9 of the fan. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: The other aspect of this 12 is in the building analysis, that fan power more 13 applies to the heating hours and the ventilation 14 hours, maybe at a lower stage. BEGIN NOTE. 15 MR. STARR: So really fundamentally the 16 problem is trying to link IEER with higher EL levels 17 is not a very good science because they don't 18 necessarily advantage the things that would actually 19 save you energy. I mean if you think bit, if you 20 were to go back to that page where she has the 21 equipment or the energy division numbers -- or not 22 the numbers, but the amount of energy used, if you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 are to go out and get all those -- you were to go 2 over -- you said EL levels. If you had multiple 3 models, you could see which models were starting to 4 use less energy. Those would be the ones you would 5 typically select. In other words if I found a 6 model -- I don't know. 7 She has some representative ones here for 8 EL 3. If I were to find another model out there at 9 14.8 that had a really low fan energy and that might 10 be a better model to use for EL 3 because it will 11 will get fan savings out of it potentially. It 12 sounds like weary shaping up to have a lot of energy 13 use based on fans so therefore -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: And you might not right at 15 that point. That's when -- when you start -- right? 16 When you started to get to 3, 3.5, 4 and 5, you were 17 finding less and less models so you were having to 18 basically pick, right? 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. We can advocate 20 models which has -- 21 MR. STARR: I like that. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Which has potential

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 issues. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't. You're not a 3 designer, sorry. 4 MR. STARR: Give me that software. I 5 guess what I would ask would be from the average 6 size, the high every EL levels, is there a way to 7 select different ones that are showing -- that would 8 show -- if I were to look down that column, instead 9 of seeing flat numbers starting at 3 down, I would 10 like to see decreasing numbers, if you could change 11 the model selection, such that I would see that. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: That isn't gonna -- again, 13 the issue here is that the test -- anything that 14 passes the test procedure can be sold. 15 MR. STARR: I see. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 17 MR. STARR: So it's not representative, is 18 what you're saying. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, it's representative. 20 This is not the only model that you can design at 21 that EL but it -- you can design this model, it will 22 pass the test procedure and it may be more energy

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 intensive in a ventilation-heavy application. 2 That's just -- again, that's the issue for the test 3 procedure versus the field condition, so I don't know 4 that there's a solution. I mean it would be useful 5 to have a broader diversity models for the energy use 6 calculation. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: And I think if we had four 9 different EL3 models and some of them had fan 10 improvements, you would see different numbers here. 11 But it doesn't get around the fact that anything -- 12 anything that passes test procedure is considered to 13 be -- 14 MR. STARR: I see. 15 MR. SACHS: Let me see if I can go back to 16 something, this is Harvey, I want to go back to 17 something you said a minute ago that we need to be 18 plotting this in two spaces. 19 The issue is that by law, our metric is 20 trying to combine the measurements of two different 21 things that are really pretty independent variables. 22 It's trying to combine the air-moving efficiency in

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 and the refrigeration efficiency. This is an 2 inherent structural problem that we have to cruise 3 through here at this time but it's the long-term 4 strategic. 5 MR. STARR: You should take this slide out 6 and drop night the fan negotiation next week. 7 MR. SACHS: Be careful you may get. BEGIN 8 NOTE wall wall if you move this way, then we can 9 decide. You cannot double count. We can defend it 10 down here, but you can't do it in more than one place 11 at the same time. 12 MR. STARR: I agree there's an issue. I'm 13 being facetious. 14 MR. SACHS: Of course we can, but we 15 shouldn't. 16 MR. STARR: I think the real solution is 17 trying to modify the test procedure for IEER, which I 18 think will be the solution. But I mean obviously 19 we're not going to fix it here. So this is for just 20 for nur -- if you're interested, you have the same 21 numbers for the warm parts of the country and the 22 cool parts of the country, but I'm just going to move

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 on to the 15 ton. We have the same table. Yeah. So 2 again, you're seeing a large increase in the fan 3 energy use. And an increase in the cooling energy 4 use, too, as well. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: I wanted to point out 6 that EL 2.5 is an anomaly here and, you know, the 7 folks at Navigant gave us new correlations for that 8 design which we haven't been able to process -- we 9 are not able to process before this meeting. 10 So those EL 2.5 numbers are going -- you should just 11 ignore them, so -- 12 MR. DeLASKI: And that problem you think 13 is segregated, that problem you think is segregated 14 to that one EL? 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's that one EL, yes. 16 MR. THARP: Across all sizes? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, just 15-ton. 18 MR. STARR: It does look like there is a 19 better trend towards buyer IEER or less energy use in 20 this case. Or -- I don't know. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: You'll that issue from 22 IEER from 3 to 5, you still have the same issue

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 between the compressor and the fan. END NOTE. 2 MR. STARR: You're really staying the same 3 thing. Especially E4 and 5 -- well, you go down a 4 little bit. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: You go EL2 to 3, you see 6 the same thing but the fan. 7 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: The same thing here, the 9 conversion curve at three? 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: So I just have one slide 13 left on the load factor issue, which I am actually 14 not convinced is going to make a large difference but 15 we will do the sensitivity. So the issue here is I'm 16 just going to do a very simple example. Suppose we 17 have two 15-ton units in a building and we call 18 complaint the hourly energy use, so let's say in a 19 given hour, the heat load is put it in tons for 20 simplicity, is 20 tons. So I need more than one 21 unit. The question is how do I distribute that load 22 across my multiple units. So what we're currently

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 doing is just evenly distributing across all the 2 units in the -- in the building. So in this case, 3 since I have 30 tons of capacity and I need to remove 4 20 sons of heat, that gives me a load factor of 5 two-thirds, which is the percentage of the hours that 6 the unit would run in order to meet that heat removal 7 requirement. If you ignore the complications due to 8 staging, the reason why this makes a difference is we 9 have a degradation factor in the compressor energy. 10 So if it's cycling on and off, the expectation is 11 that it will use more energy than if it was just 12 fully loaded nor the whole hour. And the formula 13 that we have is this 1.13 times .13 minus the load 14 factor. BEGIN NOTE. 15 In this case, it gives me load factor of 16 1.3 for a load factor of 2 over three. 17 So that means my energy consumption, tie the energy 18 consumption and I multiply it by that factor and get 19 a 4.3 increase due to the cycling. So an alternative 20 approach to this calculation is not necessarily more 21 realistic, it's just another way of doing it, is to 22 say I'm going to take my 20 tons, I'm going to put 15

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 tons on one unit and five tons on another unit. 2 That means nor the one unit I have a load factor of 3 one and no degradation and the other unit, I now have 4 a load factor of one-third and my degradation factor 5 goes up. So if you do that calculation but then if 6 you take sort of the average degradation between the 7 two of them, you get a new factor of 1.029. So we 8 can essentially changing the energy consumption by, I 9 guess that's point -- 1.5 percent by redistributing 10 the load. So you know, and if you do this in you're 11 sort of going in and out of different stages there, 12 may be an effect but I think that largely it is -- 13 for the most part, you know, zero order energy 14 consumption is proportional to the amount of heat 15 that you have to remove and whatever kind of capacity 16 is available based on external temperatures. BEGIN 17 NOTE BEGIN NOTE. So this is really a higher, 18 second-order effect that may change by a couple of 19 percent. 20 So we're going to do a sensitivity where 21 we go through this exercise just in the upper stage, 22 just turning on a number of units that is required to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 meet the load and having a load factor be only on one 2 unit, and that kind of a bound essentially on the 3 minimum. If you had a perfectly optimized system 4 that only turned on when it was absolutely needed, 5 that's what you would get. So that will at least 6 give us an order of magnitude for this effect and 7 then we can, you know, come to some agreement about 8 what's a reasonable representation. There is -- but 9 as I said, I'm looking at this as something that is 10 gonna be a couple of percent, at the most. 11 There is one case where we actually are 12 doing something that I think is not correct, which is 13 when this system is in cooling/heating mode, we have 14 all the units turned on and so we're gonna fix that 15 for cooling/heating and make sure that the cooling is 16 confined the a small number of units. But, again, I 17 don't expect it to have a huge impact on the answer. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, with a ACEEE. 19 I have a question because I thought more about 20 residential. My sense is that cycling, particularly 21 relatively short cycling, affects the SHR. I'm not 22 sure if we're fully capturing latent and there

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 probably is no bigger factor than when you talk about 2 here. Are we going to see the possibility that folks 3 might be tuning that question of running one full and 4 one part, which is a two-part, depending on what 5 climate they're in? 6 MS. COUGHLIN: I can produce results by 7 region, yeah. But really, again, we can't do that 8 type of analysis here. I can basically just, you 9 know -- there is sort aftermath problem. I can do a 10 kind of mathematical loading, but I can't explain or 11 investigate how it would be done in real -- 12 MR. SACHS: The question may be actually 13 more for the manufacturers. We can see these same 14 SHR variations as we change our load pattern. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. STARR: I think, though, in the 17 commercial isn't the fan running all the time, so you 18 don't have the same effect? The moisture that comes 19 off the coil is not breathing. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Right. The fan is 21 typically going to be running all the time. It will 22 run stage, but, still, it will be running.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 MS. HOOTMAN: But in the southeast, you 2 still have a huge amount of it. They're doing 3 dissimilars a lot to dry up spaces if you have a huge 4 amount infiltration of hot, humid weather. 5 MR. SACHS: That sounds like a good one. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Kind of like today. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: So that's it? Any more 9 questions on this? 10 MR. SACHS: Brainstorm. 11 MS. COUGHLIN: Are you next? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm next. Did you 13 want to break or want to turn into the LCC? 14 MR. STARR: I think a break would be good 15 myself. 16 MR. BANTLE: It's 9:11. Let's take 10 17 minutes. 18 (A break was taken.) 19 MR. KIDO: Mike Kido, DOE. 20 I would understanding is we proposed this 21 in the context of the my understanding is that we had 22 issued requests for information that kind of outlined

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 the agency's position with respect to IEER and EER 2 and we had also proposed to make the change in the 3 context of the actual notice of proposed rule-making, 4 which when was that, September? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, it came out 6 September, right? XxxMike Mike so if you're asking 7 whether there's been a-- a final decision that's been 8 made, on making that switch, that has not been made 9 yet. We're -- we're still at the proposal stage and 10 everything is framed within the context of making 11 that switch over to IEER. 12 MR. DeLASKI: In fairness to Karen's 13 question, it would be tough at this point to go back 14 because we'd have to go do everything all over again, 15 essentially. I mean there is a certain -- we can 16 hardly meet the legal dead length and do everything 17 all over again. I thought we had a consensus based 18 on our earlier private conversations and also your 19 written comments and our written comments that IEER 20 was the direction to go again. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. There were no 22 adverse comments to do other than the metric

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 proposed. 2 Did I state that fairly enough? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 4 MS. MEYERS: You know, John, I'm gonna 5 push back on you before and you've also had, never 6 had adverse comments before and the DOE doesn't 7 necessarily always follow that path. So from my 8 perspective, I'm telling everyone in my company, I 9 think it he is IEER. It's like well, are we for 10 sure? I'm like no, there's nothing official. So 11 when we're doing this analysis and we're looking at 12 these different things, are you sure it's going to be 13 IER? I'm pretty sure. But there's nothing official 14 that says that it is, so when we're -- you know, I 15 just find it interesting that since that's not 16 official -- 17 MR. DeLASKI: You want to vote? 18 MS. MEYERS: But we don't have any 19 analysis on EER so it's just, you know, I just -- 20 it's almost like, you know, which, the DOE is setting 21 the efficiency standards before they do the test 22 procedure that I've commented on many times before,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 which is just wrong. So if this is gonna be the path 2 forward, I think manufacturers, for sure, need to 3 have something from the department that officially 4 says the new metric for commercial HV/AC is IEER, 5 before we go down this path, just under these 6 assumptions. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'll push back a little 8 bit here. I think regardless of this committee being 9 here today, the department would have gone down its 10 normal path, which was proposed the metric change, as 11 we did, seek comments, which we did, no comment that 12 we received said that switching to IEER wasn't the 13 right thing to do, so the department was going down 14 that path and here we are today, only -- only talking 15 about IEER. 16 MS. MEYERS: And so -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: If we want to vote in the 18 committee and put it as part of the recommendation, 19 I'm happy for that to happen to give you more 20 comfort. But this is not going to be a document 21 until the next -- 22 MS. MEYERS: So are you going to adopt the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 test procedure? 2 MR. THARP: It already is. So that was 3 stated previously. 4 MS. MEYERS: Jill says it's not final. 5 MR. THARP: It is. And that was part of 6 the RFI or NOPR something where it was noted that DOE 7 has adopted 343.60 with addendum one 2007, 2008, 8 something like that, or 2010, whatever year it is. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten. 10 MR. THARP: And which has IEER in it. 11 MS. MEYERS: That was in the RFI. Do we 12 have the official test procedure final rule from DOE 13 adopting the test procedure? 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 15 MR. THARP: The 343.60 that is currently 16 adopted by DOE does have EER in it. BEGIN NOTEierier 17 is IEER END NOTE. 18 MS. MEYERS: All right. 19 MR. THARP: But it doesn't have -- we're 20 now in addendum two. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. THARP: And we're currently modifying.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 So part of our request would be for DOE to adopt the 2 latest and greatest version, which was provided to 3 DOE about a month ago. Our latest proposed version 4 was provided with request for comments. So I would 5 suggest that as part of this, as assuming we do move 6 along with IEER, that part of our agreement would be 7 that DOE would adopt 343.60 latest test revision. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: How would that change 9 anything we've been talking about in terms of the 10 analysis? 11 MR. THARP: Towards IEER. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: As far as analysis, it 13 won't. It's more about certification and making sure 14 it's right because barometric -- I believe there is a 15 new method revised methodology of temperature 16 sampling, barometric relief -- oh, elevation, you put 17 in the difference in elevation. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, the ground rules, as 19 I recall, said test procedure is off the table, and 20 that's was what I charted the working group to do. I 21 mean I appreciate you bringing that to the group, but 22 I think from this group's perspective, there's no

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 discussion of adopting test procedures. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But in the 3 supplemental, this comes out with a SNOPR, I mean 4 aren't you going to reference to what test standard, 5 that this is all -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we've been -- the 7 numbers we were creating were based on, I guess, the 8 version rusty just quoted. 9 MS. MEYERS: So, again, what exactly is 10 the test procedure that all this analysis is done 11 off? What is DOE's final test procedures? What is 12 the 343.60? I mean that's final, is there a 13 document? 14 MR. THARP: 34.60 addendum one. 15 MS. MEYERS: That's what's final? 16 MR. THARP: That's what's currently in 17 use. 18 MS. MEYERS: So do we have a final rule 19 from DOE -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Not final rule, NOPR. 21 MS. MEYERS: It's just a NOPR. 22 MR. THARP: Well, from a test procedure

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 standpoint. 2 MS. MEYERS: From a test procedure 3 standpoint I thought it was just in the NOPR. 4 MR. AMRANE: I believe there is we adopted 5 343.60. 6 MS. MEYERS: Addendum one? 7 MR. THARP: Addendum one. 8 MS. MEYERS: Nobody in this room knows the 9 answer to this question. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: It says here addendum one 11 and addendum two in the footnote from the C.F.R. 12 Addendum one and addendum two. 13 MR. McCABE: This is Michael McCabe. 14 DOE may have adopted the ASHRAE standard, 15 but if you look at the DOE test procedure, there is 16 no reference to IEER in the test procedure. For the 17 purpose of the EER test procedure, the department has 18 adopted the later version and put in addendum one. 19 But the department has not adopted as a test 20 procedure IEER. So, therefore, the DOE test 21 procedure still is EER. They can adopt the updated 22 ASHRAE, AHRI test procedure for EER, and within those

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 updated test procedures, there can be IEER elements 2 in them. But as long as the test, DOE does not 3 reference those IEER requirements for the purpose of 4 DOE's test, they're irrelevant. It's only after the 5 department formally adopts the IEER metric and those 6 parts of the industry standard that it then becomes 7 embraced by DOE. 8 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. 9 MR. DeLASKI: But I still don't know what 10 the point is because ultimately this seems like this 11 was a negotiation. It seems like we're going through 12 a contentious rule-making context, for some reason. 13 The point is that we have a consensus, I thought, 14 that was emerged quite a long time ago that the new 15 IEER, the latest and greatest, as Rusty said, which 16 apparently is still being tweaked, I presume around 17 the edges, you know, by the industry, which industry 18 wants to see adopted, latest and greatest, is still 19 being tweaked. That's fine, right, because I see 20 people nodding it's around the edges. And that 21 that's the consensus, we want to move forward with 22 IEER.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 MS. MEYERS: And I just want the -- 2 MR. DeLASKI: And the department has 3 proposed it as the basis, they're doing all this 4 analysis on it. They can't adopt it until you go 5 through a public rule-making process. You can't just 6 willy-nilly say, There it is, folks. 7 There has to be a public process for 8 comment. We're not going to stop all this and go 9 through another notes and comment to adopt it prior 10 to -- to adopt something that isn't even done yet, 11 according to Rusty. So I'm not quite sure what 12 you're driving at, Karen. Why don't we come back to 13 sort of the substance of trying to move things 14 forward. 15 I'm just struck that -- what's the 16 concern? 17 MS. MEYERS: Well, the concern is we're 18 looking at setting various efficiency levels for this 19 equipment on a metric that, you know, I don't have 20 anything official that the department is going to be 21 giving a federal metric. BEGIN NOTE we're all 22 assuming, that we made a lot of assumptions.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 MR. DeLASKI: This is pretty official. 2 The NOPR was pretty darn official. 3 What's the question about the NOPR? 4 MS. MEYERS: It's proposed. 5 MR. DeLASKI: Of course it is. You guys 6 asked for negotiation, we said yes. We're sitting 7 here, talking with you. So what's the problem? 8 MS. MEYERS: Just, you know, don't want 9 this to, you know, suddenly get held back as we're 10 going through these numbers and everyone's looking at 11 the effect of the power consumption on IEER, and I 12 just want to make sure that, you know, this is our 13 definite path forward. 14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in. At least 15 for this working group, is it -- is it fair to say 16 that everyone's under the -- that we will be under 17 the understanding that the test procedures are what 18 the IEER metrics for each, or the IEER and that's way 19 we're all moving forward? BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 20 From what I'm understanding is, it wasn't 21 Septemberxxx NOPR and all things are marching towards 22 using IEER. The formal adoption on that, though, how

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 does that -- that comes later? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we -- we reference 3 the addendum. I'll let Michael speak to that, to 4 Michael McCabe on that. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 5 MR. McCABE: END NOTE once -- we would 6 essentially, you know, since we've already proposed a 7 particular path, it would just be a matter of 8 finalizing it. So we have a final rule that says 9 this is a particular metric that we're going to be 10 using, here's -- here's how it's going to be -- 11 here's how you would actually measure whether you're 12 meeting that particular level. And I don't have the 13 C.F.R. in front of me, so I don't know what it says 14 but I'm assuming based on what other folks have 15 already stated that we've already adopted the 16 relevant provisions that would enable us to use IEER 17 for the purposes of test procedure and standard. 18 I can go back and take a look just to make 19 sure but that's sort of my understanding of what 20 would happen next. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: So then when we're done, it 22 is going to be in the rule that you were using IEER,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 so that should help the manufacturers. 2 MR. McCABE: That's correct. That's my 3 understanding. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that help? 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Would it be more 6 comfortable for everyone to vote to say that this 7 process is considering IEER the metric? 8 Karen, does that make you feel more 9 comfortable? Does DOE have to -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or is it a separate -- I 11 don't understand, process. I thought that thought 12 that adopting a test standard, you have a separate 13 process, separate rule-making process. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I get that. But I think 15 for this to say IEER is what we're basing all our 16 negotiation on maybe is an important thing. I 17 thought it was understood going in that is what we 18 were doing. But because we proposed it, because 19 we've shown every number that way. But if it makes 20 you feel more comfortable to have it in the term 21 sheet -- 22 MS. MEYERS: I think, you know, it would

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 make me feel better because -- and we also need to 2 sign the adoption of the test procedure so that it 3 can go into effect. So that we can effect design 4 changes based upon the new efficiency standards. 5 MR. deLASKI: The two go hand in hand, 6 right? The standard, the test method is EER until 7 this new standard goes into effect, right? There's 8 no change with the federal required test method is -- 9 until the moment, right, whatever the year is, you 10 know, 20' whatever it is, that becomes the new test 11 method. But you -- but you know what it is so you 12 can do the design work you need to do. 13 MS. MEYERS: So what you're proposing is 14 that the effective date of the new test procedure and 15 the new efficiency standard be the same? 16 MR. DeLASKI: Well, okay, effective date 17 and compliance. Otherwise, you would have a new 18 standard sooner. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me back it up and see if 20 we can get the one piece done and then we can go on 21 to another question, right? 22 We're going to ask for the understanding

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 that for analysis and your working group rule, we're 2 all going to be using IEER. Let's see a show if 3 everyone is okay with that. 4 (Participants raise hands.) 5 MR. HUNT: What is horizontal? 6 MR. RAMIREZ: That you can support it, go 7 along with it. The understanding is we're all using 8 IEER. 9 (Participants continue holding up hands.) 10 MR. RAMIREZ: Going once, going twice. 11 MS. MEYERS: I'm not voting. I'm 12 abstaining on this one. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Any thumbs down on the line? 14 (No response.) 15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then one 16 abstained, Karen, and the rest "yes." 17 Where do we need to go from here with 18 this? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let me go back, we've 20 adopted almost entirely 340.360xxxx. It includes 21 IEER provisions. To the extent that this group feels 22 like we need to clarify anything, based on what we've

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 already done BEGIN NOTE END NOTE, that's fine, let's 2 move forward with doing that as we march forward. 3 But, I mean, I want to be clear that we're 4 negotiating on the IEER numbers. That's all we've 5 been talking about. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: We just agreed to it. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I know. I'm just saying. 8 MR. RAMIREZ: We have one more section to 9 go through. Why don't we get through that section 10 and then we'll come back and say how these numbers 11 look, right. 12 Do we need to modify any of these numbers, 13 in order to move forward with the analysis after the 14 working group? 15 MS. HOFFMAN: I just want to make sure, 16 Karen, you have some concerns? 17 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I still have some 18 concerns. You've adopted it. Today -- today, what 19 is the federal efficiency metric? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's EER now. We're not 21 talking about today's standards. 22 MR. deLASKI: You want to do the metric

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 today? 2 MS. MEYERS: We just need to make sure -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're debating the 2019. 4 Isn't that what we're charged to do? 5 MS. MEYERS: So the test procedure needs 6 to be in enough time that allows manufactures to 7 design and certify products to this new IEER metric 8 that we are proposing in this negotiation. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: That test procedure is 10 already final. 11 MS. MEYERS: The current, it's not final 12 because the current federal metric is EER and what 13 you're proposing is a new federal metric becomes IEER 14 in 2019. So there has to be activity that changes 15 that. 16 MR. deLASKI: I think you're 17 misunderstanding. So the test method is final. It 18 is published as part of the federal -- as the Code of 19 Federal Regulations. You're just not required to 20 certify to that value. You can calculate it today. 21 You do. 22 MS. MEYERS: Well, we do, but it's not

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 a -- you know when you go over to the certification 2 side of DOE, the compliance and certification is on 3 EER. 4 MR. deLASKI: Like Rusty said, you guys 5 are working on that. 6 MS. MEYERS: No. Not that I'm aware of. 7 We're working on compliance and certification -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: We're revising 343.60, 9 there'll be an addendum three. 10 MR. THARP: It will be a 2015 version. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will be a 2015 12 version. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right now, Rusty, can you 14 test to EER, based on what is in the final code -- 15 MR. THARP: Yes. But we would not want 16 you to test to that. We would want you to test to 17 the new version because it's -- elevation is very 18 important in the test. 19 MS. MEYERS: And today, your compliance 20 and certification program is on EER. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree wholeheartedly. 22 I'm talking about --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 MS. MEYERS: You always try and separate, 2 but they're not separated. So from a manufacturer, 3 when we're designing and certifying product, it needs 4 to be to the correct. And what you're gonna certify 5 and enforce to, those need to be the same thing. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree. Let me double 7 back a second. If, let's just say, January 1st you 8 had to certify IEER. Now forget about any of this 9 stuff that goes along with that, sampling and all 10 that. But is there something final today that can 11 let you test -- test your product and report an IEER 12 value, yes or no? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Nothing final. A new 14 version? 15 MR. THARP: Yes. The answer is yes. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes or no? 17 MS. MEYERS: Certified number is the one 18 that you're gonna design to. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's your test procedure, 20 you tell me. 21 MR. THARP: What is federally adopted is 22 what ASHRAE is using in our certification program

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 today for EER and IEER. 2 MR. AMRANE: Just going with AHRI, I think 3 to answer this question yes. But there are, I think 4 we made revision to the standard that we would like 5 Department of Energy to review before the new IEER 6 becomes the federal level (inaudible). BEGIN NOTE 7 and what we would like to you do is maybe start that 8 process so we have at least the reference to the 9 latest version of the IEER standard. 10 Is it something that you can do? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is addendum three? 12 MR. THARP: Technically it will be a 2015 13 version. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: It will take away the 15 addendums in all of those pieces. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we have that? 17 MR. THARP: You have a copy of the 18 proposed. We're waiting, actually at this point, 19 we're waiting to issue the final until we have 20 comments from DOE. 21 MR. deLASKI: Can we get a copy of that, 22 too?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 MR. THARP: Sure. We can send it to all 2 stakeholders. 3 MR. McCABE: This is Michael McCabe. 4 To answer your question, my answer to your 5 question would be no, which would be completely 6 different than today xxxx/KA reel. If somebody was 7 told they had to certify IEER to the DOE test 8 procedure, the first thing you'd have to do is go to 9 430, appendix M, to find the DOE test procedure, and 10 you'd look for IEER and you will not see IEER in 10 11 C.F.R., Part 430, the DOE test procedure. Go to 12 430.2, measures of energy use, you do not see IEER. 13 Yes, DOE has adopted the newer versions of the AHRI 14 standard, but for only the purpose of measuring EER. 15 They have not adopted those newer standards for the 16 purpose of measuring IEER because nowhere in the code 17 of federal regulations will you find IEER. So if a 18 manufacturer were to ask to you certify or if you 19 were to go to enforce and you were to pick up the 20 C.F.R., you can't find it, so you can't certify to 21 it. But if you were asked somebody to come up with a 22 measure that could go to the AHRI standards and

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 reasonably be able to pull out from that what the 2 assumptions are and test the product and give you 3 that a measure as to this is what we believe, this is 4 what we all assume IEER is, but there's nothing there 5 in the regulations to give an enforcement. 6 MR. deLASKI: And, Michael, you worked in 7 the program for 30 years. 8 MR. McCABE: 35, but who's counting. 9 MR. deLASKI: When, typically, when you 10 adopt a you that metric at what point in the process 11 would that become part of the federal regulations? 12 MR. McCABE: When you adopt an amendment 13 to the test procedures, you would amend 430 to have a 14 test method. You would amend 429 to add the 15 compliance requirements. 16 MR. THARP: Actually 430 -- 17 MR. McCABE: I'm sorry, yes. 18 MR. THARP: -- is where the commercial is 19 and actually, I guess, so I guess I'm not following 20 the logic because what is in 431.68, I think it is 21 right now, specifically adopts the test procedure 22 which has IEER in it.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 MR. McCABE: They adopted for the purpose 2 of EER, not IEER. So if you look at the test 3 procedure -- thank you for checking me. It's 431. 4 If you look at 431, look at 429, you do not see IEER. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in because I 6 want to get one conversation going. So where do we 7 go with this, though? Because I understand there is 8 this addendum that's out there. What do we need to 9 do with that? 10 MR. AMRANE: We would like you to review 11 the latest version of the standards to 4360 and start 12 the process about adopting to the C.F.R. And I think 13 Michael is right, I was referring -- referencing the 14 standards itself that we have currently which has the 15 IEER metric, but I think technically Michael is 16 correct that we have to do that, regardless. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. My understanding 18 is if today we did it today, you'd have 180 days to 19 report the IEER, wouldn't you? Is that what you 20 want? I didn't think that's what you wanted. I 21 thought you wanted to wait. That's the requirement. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Days to test, once you adopt

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 it. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to slow that 3 train down a little bit? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, I really think 5 we're all on the same page here. Except for this new 6 addendum three or whatever we're calling it is, to 7 me, the only thing in my mind that's at odds with 8 what DOE was thinking and what the group is thinking 9 in terms of moving forward. 10 MR. STARR: You know, maybe it would be 11 best, this is Louis. Maybe it would be best if we 12 continue on and maybe manufacturers can chat amongst 13 themselves a little bit during lunch or whenever, 14 come back and see if they have more thoughts about it 15 or -- 16 MS. MEYERS: I don't think it's a 17 manufacturer issue. Maybe it is. I just want to, as 18 part of the record, that DOE has to follow the proper 19 process in adopting the current test procedure in an 20 amount of time or it has to be indicated in the term 21 sheet what DOE -- to adopt ineffective date BEGIN 22 NOTE I just wanted as part of the record that the --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 that DOE has to follow the process to -- or to give 2 manufacturers some assurance that they're gonna do 3 that because they can't come out with a new test 4 procedure that's finalized, says they could adopt 5 this new metric and expect manufacturers to be able 6 to comply within a few months. So it needs to be 7 part of the term sheet or something that gives 8 manufacturers some assurance on what they're gonna 9 do. I've been through this with water heaters so I 10 know it's a big issue when they don't do it in time, 11 it makes it impossible to comply with the new 12 standard. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Furnace fans? 14 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, furnace fans. So it's 15 a important part of this negotiated rule making that 16 we have, at least if my company's perspective, 17 everything is going to be contingent upon DOE giving 18 us that assurance that the test procedure in effect 19 will be and that they will be changing the metric to 20 IEER, and they will be adopting the latest version of 21 the test procedure. So that we can have, we can use 22 those, whenever this is final, those next few years,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 to design and certify our equipment, be ready to 2 certify our equipment accordingly. They can be 3 certified to EER, that's what the compliance and 4 enforcement program at DOE tells us to do. So it's 5 very important that those steps be followed or it be 6 part of the term sheet because otherwise, you get 7 into this process where you have, you know, some 8 product certified with EER, some certified with IEER, 9 and it's a mess when you change metrics. I'm not 10 saying I disagree with the IEER. It probably is a 11 better metric, but, you know, there is a difference 12 in how a manufacturer is going to design a product if 13 he's certifying to EER or IEER. That's the whole, 14 you know, that's how you design your product because 15 you are required to certify it per the DOE test 16 procedure standards. So just a very important thing 17 that, you know, it's never really been, we are going 18 down this assumption and, you know, I just want it 19 clearly stated and as part of the term sheet that doe 20 if DOE is going to do this. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, my only comment 22 there is that the charge to this group was not do

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 anything. I'm not saying DOE is supposed to do 2 anything, but I don't think this working group was 3 chartered to do anything with test procedure. BEGIN 4 NOTE I'm just stating a fact. I'm not stating DOE is 5 against addendum three or -- I moon I understand your 6 position. 7 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Noted. 9 MS. MEYERS: Let's move on. 10 MR. BANTLE: Greg? You're on. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Let's talk about 12 something a little bit more interesting, hopefully. 13 So starting off with the life cycle cost and payback 14 period analysis, which is taking the results from the 15 engineering and the energy use as well as other 16 inputs, to provide the consumer life cycle cost and 17 payback periods of the various efficiency levels that 18 we're looking at. 19 Starting off, I'm summarizing the changes 20 to the analysis since the NOPR. And the first one 21 pertains to design paths. Because the engineering is 22 looking at different ways to achieve efficiency for

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 efficiency levels one and two, we're taking the 2 constant air volume design in efficiency levels one 3 and two and applying them at constant air volume 4 buildings. And we're taking the staged air volume 5 designs in efficiency levels one and two and applying 6 them to variable air volume buildings. So this is, 7 you know, maybe not so interesting here, but this is 8 an important point, I mean important thing that we're 9 doing in the analysis. After EL2, all efficiency 10 levels that have been analyzed in the engineering are 11 applied to all buildings were -- we have, whether 12 they're constant air volume or variable air volume. 13 The next one are about the installed costs 14 for putting in staged air volume or variable air 15 volume designs into constant air volume buildings. 16 And we're taking care of that through either a 17 thermostat change, and, if necessary, replacing the 18 diffusers in the building. And those diffusers need 19 to get replaced, you'll see later, for 15-ton 20 equipment at equipment four and five and it's quite 21 an expensive thing to do. BEGIN NOTE. 22 The other thing you heard a lot about

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 already is the conversion curb costs. We're 2 incorporating those starting at EL3. And, again, to 3 accommodate larger equipment to do that. 4 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, again. 5 I have a question about design path. So 6 explain to me what you're doing with the -- you're 7 taking a constant air volume system and if you change 8 it to VAV, explain to me what's going on there real 9 quick. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So efficiency levels four 11 and five you'll see for 15 tons, the EL4 requires 12 three stages of air flow in that air flow begins to 13 go below 60 percent. So at that point, the existing 14 diffusers don't provide enough throw, right, to 15 disperse the air into space so the assumption there 16 is that you have to go in there and replace those 17 diffusers. And for EL5, which is a variable air 18 volume system, the sanction thing, that you would 19 have to take those diffusers that were designed for a 20 conversional air volume system and replace them. 21 MR. STARR: And what are you replacing 22 them with?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: A variable air volume 2 diffuser that, you know, it's -- rather than putting 3 a VAV box in and redoing your ductwork, it's just 4 putting in this expensive VAV diffuser, which can be 5 controlled to vary the air volume of the -- I mean 6 the -- 7 MR. STARR: Okay. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- the opening of the 9 diffuser. 10 MR. STARR: I don't know. I don't buy 11 that. I -- that doesn't sounds like a design 12 solution that I'm familiar with. Anyway. What's the 13 basis of that information, where you deem that from? 14 Is that Dick Lord saying that or someone else? BEGIN 15 NOTEnamexx. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, from past working 17 groups, I can't remember if it was in if informal, or 18 April 28th, if you bring air flow below 60 percent, 19 right, the diffuser isn't going to accommodate that. 20 MR. STARR: Yeah. It also corresponds 21 between the break in the EL levels. I personally 22 need, I need the labs or someone to go in and see if

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 that's really a design solution. You know, in theory 2 what you would have is dumping. What would happen, 3 the air comes out, it's super cold, you don't get 4 enough throw out of the diffusers. The first thing 5 could you do is look into diffuser. They have a 6 catalogue or it's now probably online and you see 7 what the throws are and see if that's actually 8 effective. I would think that it's really just a 9 question of whether the diffusers have adequate flow 10 at 40 percent flow and, you know, I -- the other 11 thing is, too, I wouldn't sure -- I wouldn't be so 12 sure that wouldn't be cheaper to replace, put in VAV 13 boxes, as opposed to replacing the diffusers. 14 Anyway, I don't know, I don't buy 15 replacing all the diffusers in a building as required 16 for EL3 and 4, when you go below 40 percent. I would 17 like, personally like some more either contact design 18 engineers or something that it's some basis of design 19 for that. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Again, I want to 21 emphasize it's EL4 and 5 where that's running. 22 MR. STARR: That's better.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not three. 2 MR. STARR: Okay. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: I should add here wire 4 looking for input here so thanks for the input on the 5 issue of the diffusers, Louis. But, also, input on 6 the conversion curb cost that we'll be presenting 7 later, as well as, you know, any input that we're -- 8 from the manufacturers on shipments of, you know, 9 constant air volume and staged air volume and 10 variable air volume designs. Right now, the market 11 share of these designs is dictated by the market 12 share of the type of buildings that we have, so -- so 13 without anything else, that's what we'll continue to 14 go with. 15 Is this locked up? 16 MR. STARR: I would also say on the 17 conversion curb cost, one group that would probably 18 be in a great position to provide some of that 19 information, they've got a real good handle on the 20 price of sheet metal and generalized ideas of what 21 those conversion curves look like would help them. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought from yesterday, we

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 were gonna provide a major manufacturer that provides 2 that manufacturer, a major manufacturer that supplies 3 me to Navigant. So I don't think we're disclosing 4 it, we're gonna provide that information. 5 MR. STARR: We're all turnsxxx or just a 6 general average price? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: For what? 8 MR. STARR: What pricing are you going to 9 price all of the Terps -- 10 MR. deLASKI: Wasn't Navigant gonna 11 contact -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. deLASKI: That was the idea. 14 MR. TERZIGNI: I will concur, curbs are 15 typically bought out, they're not typically 16 fabricated anymore. So I would concur with that 17 approach. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef 19 Westphalen. I was going to say if it makes sense to 20 pull in LBNL in that discussion in order to get some 21 input on pricing for their part of the analysis, 22 certainly that's something we can consider if

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 everybody involved is comfortable with it. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. I'll move on to 3 the next thing that was changed, repair costs. The 4 NOPR analysis did not include compressor repair costs 5 into the life cycle repair analysis because it was 6 being used as a driver for the shipments nor the 7 repair versus replacement decision. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN 8 NOTE but one thing that we didn't realize at the time 9 is that, you know, under your sort of base-case 10 situation without standards, you're still gonna have 11 compressor repairs at some point during the lifetime 12 of the equipment. And so, again, for this analysis, 13 we've brought compressor repair into the life cycle 14 cost. And that repair cost is a function of 15 efficiency, so the higher the, you know, the more the 16 equipment, the more efficient the compressor, the 17 more the cost to repair them. We still have the 18 non-compressor repair costs in the analysis that we 19 have in the NOPR, so we're continuing to retain that 20 here. You'll see later on what those costs are, so 21 we will look for input on those and see if -- to tell 22 us whether or not those are reasonable. And because

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 we've included these repair costs into the life cycle 2 costs analysis, it effectively then changes our 3 equipment lifetime. So for the NOPR, that lifetime 4 was around 18 years for medium lifetime. Now it's 5 gone up to 21 years, as you'll see later. Again, 6 because some of those -- some of those units out 7 there are replacing their compressors, and, as a 8 result, they're going to be extending their life. 9 MR. STARR: This is Louis. 10 Did that change from the original analysis 11 that you had, you had put the compress owner and it 12 doubles the life of the equipment. Is that still a 13 bad assumption or has that changed? When you replace 14 the compressor, does that -- how does that change the 15 lifetime of the equipment? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, so what we were 17 doing in the NOPR, right, was that for 30-ton 18 units -- actually for all units, when we would 19 replace the compressor instead of replace the unit, 20 would it give an equal lifetime to it. 21 MR. STARR: Okay. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: So that will be -- we're

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 changing that assumption basically, so you'll be 2 seeing that next week when we present the shipments 3 analysis. But here, we're just capturing that some 4 units, under the base case without standards, and 5 also under the standards cases in the life cycle 6 costs analysis will repair their compressor. 7 MR. STARR: Right. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just the normal course of 9 the lifetime of that equipment. Lieu who so that's a 10 pretty big change, right? It will change your 11 shipments quite a bit if you assume double the 12 lifetime of your equipment by compressor change. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 14 MS. MEYERS: When you say compressor 15 repair, do you mean compressor replacement? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 17 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 19 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey, again. 20 A sort of the sense of order of magnitude 21 of the call it contractor labor plus markup versus 22 compressor costs when you're doing that compressor

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 replacement, is the compressor purchased, say, at the 2 contractor level 90 percent of the cost -- installed 3 costs or is 20 percent of the installed costs? Just 4 trying to get a sense because -- 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I don't know. 6 MR. SACHS: Installation time doesn't 7 change. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're drawing our labor 9 from RS means, but drawing the compressor repair 10 material costs, the compressor itself from Grangerxxx 11 because the RS means was providing us kinds of what 12 we thought, you know, not Representative data. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: So again we're using the 15 RS means for labor, we're using Granger for the 16 actual compressor replacement cost. I don't know the 17 relative ratios of those. Do you remember? Al Al 18 labor to -- what fraction was the labor to the final 19 repair? 20 Maybe we can tell you that later. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: It should be about 50-50. 22 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's good enough

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 for me. BEGIN NOTE Alison END NOTE. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the last thing on this 3 list was -- is what I would call the base case 4 efficiency distribution, that is the distribution of 5 efficiencies without standards. And again, we 6 haven't gotten any input yet from ASHRAExxxAHRHI on 7 shipments here to inform us here. One thing we have 8 done is we have a different distribution for constant 9 air volume buildings as variable air volume 10 buildings. And one of the things you'll see later is 11 that for a variable air volume building, because the 12 baseline design is a constant air volume design, we 13 don't put that design into a variable air volume 14 building so we start out effectively with a baseline 15 design for variable -- variable air volume buildings 16 as EL1. 17 So, again, you'll see that later. But 18 again, we're looking for input. That input with the 19 shipments data that -- or market share data from the 20 industry but I don't know if you have any idea when 21 that might be forthcoming or if it's going to be 22 forthcoming.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. Should have something 2 by the end of this week, so it should be ready for 3 our next meeting. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think a lot of you have 5 probably seen this boilerplate slide and how we 6 conduct the analysis, but, as Katie was alluding to 7 earlier, we take this generalized building sample 8 from the energy use analysis, which consists of 1600 9 records, and that serves as the basis for doing our 10 Monte Carlo simulation. So we're running the Monte 11 Carlo simulation ten thousand times and draw from 12 that generalized building sample based upon its 13 Representativeness or weight. And then we -- for 14 other inputs into the life cycle cost calculation 15 drop probability calculations. So we're performing 16 this life cycle cost and payback solution 10,000 17 times, again, drawing from the generalized building 18 sample as well as picking probability from these 19 problems BEGIN NOTE that characterize things like 20 lifetime, discount rates and so forth. BEGIN NOTE 21 BEGIN NOTE. 22 Again, I think a lot of you are familiar

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 with -- I hope that process, so, again, just wanted 2 to restate it here. Again, this just restates the 3 fact what I just told you that we start with this 4 consumer sample, which is the generalized building 5 sample which serves as the basis for the analysis in 6 coming up with the distribution of results. 7 So hopefully this slide illustrates 8 exactly how we're moving the equipment designs from 9 the engineering into to capture conversion curves, 10 diffuser replacement and so forth. So on the 11 furthest left column is the efficiency level. 12 The next column is the type of equipment 13 design, whether it's a constant air volume or a 14 staged air volume and this is for seven and a half 15 ton. And you can see that, you know, based upon the 16 equipment design and its level what -- what -- what 17 type of equipment goes into the CA -- the constant 18 air volume building and the variable air volume 19 build, which are columns three and four. So that 20 equipment design of the baseline will go into a 21 constant air volume building but it will not go into 22 a variable air volume building. At efficiency level

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 one, we have a RAV and a VAC, the VAC design goes 2 into the CAV building but the staged design building 3 goes into the VAC building, BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE and 4 the same thing at efficiency level two. From 5 efficiencies levels 2.5 through 5, every -- whether 6 it's a CAV building or a VAV building, it gets that 7 same equipment design applied to it. 8 MR. STARR: So this is Louis again. So 9 this is the typical one and then you do -- is there 10 another one for dis -- in other words some that have 11 curves and some that don't? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So I'm going to 13 get those in the next set of columns for that one. I 14 want to emphasize, our building sample, our 15 generalized building sample does consist of a set of 16 buildings that are constant air volume buildings and 17 a set of buildings that are variable air volume. The 18 constant represent a much larger fraction of those 19 buildings by weight by Representativeness. BEGIN 20 NOTE. 21 So on the conversion curb, you see that 22 you don't apply a conversion curb until you get to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 Efficiency Level 3. And there, it's applied whether 2 or not you have a constant air volume building or a 3 VAV building. 4 On the diffuser replacement, we don't have 5 any of that for seven and a half tons because none of 6 the units have a staged air flow that gets below 67 7 percent. And then thermostat just shows you what 8 sort of thermostat you need based upon the type of 9 equipment design you have, and so that just dictates 10 the type of, again, cost of the they were state 11 that's going to go along with that unit. 12 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. 13 One thing I would just point out with did 14 you have diffusers in general when you stick them 15 into a VAV system, typical turndown for a 30 air box 16 is 30 percent of air flow. So the diffusers are 17 typically set up to turn down 30 percent. So I'm 18 trying to think if they have different diffusers or 19 constant air volume or not, BEGIN NOTE I think 20 generally that's how do you the design is you're at a 21 given -- so you come from the air handling unit, you 22 go down to a VAV box and then you have low pressure

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 ductwork that will have like four or five diffusers 2 on it. When you turn those boxes typically go 3 anywhere from a hundred percent when it's hard day or 4 hard load down to 30 percent in order to provide 5 ventilation air and that's -- so that flow will go 6 down to 30 percent of that. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you saying the 8 diffuser can accommodate a VAV design? 9 MR. STARR: That's my take take is that it 10 should. Keep in mind that was design as ten years 11 ago but I don't think V VAC has changed that much. 12 This should be something to my mind you shouldn't be 13 changing the diffusers, though. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you'll see in the 15 next slide here, it becomes important for EL4 and 5, 16 right? But -- so this is the slide for 15 tons. 17 It's, again, the same exact sort of thing, how the 18 equipment design the mapped for VCAV and VAV 19 buildings and what that means if you have to do the 20 conversion curb, if you have to include a conversion 21 curb and whether or not you have to replace the 22 diffusers, again, and what type of thermostat you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 have. And, again, for EL4 and 5 for 15 tons because 2 that saves air flow gets below 50 percent, the 3 assumption was that in a constant air volume 4 building, you would need to replace those diffusers 5 and include the sensors that would be necessary to be 6 able to vary that air flow with that variable air 7 volume unit. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Quick question. Paul Dpppel. 9 Is there a big cost between the VA -- 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: You will see that. It's 11 not much. It's like a maximum a hundred box, I 12 believe, between a one-stage versus one that is 13 suitable for the air volume system. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell. 15 That is referring to controlled cost, 16 controlled discussion we had yet on page 42 I think 17 the three different levels of control, I assume? 18 BEGIN NOTE. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: What was on slide 42? 20 MR. WHITWELL: 42 where controls vary by 21 size and complexity. So you describe -- 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, yeah.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 MR. WHITWELL: Right? 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I think some of the 3 controls that they're talking about are incorporated 4 into the unit already, right. These are separate 5 from this, right? So -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So this is for the 7 building control, as opposed to -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: All it is is a 9 thermostat. That's simply all it is. So, for 10 example, the VAV design needs a direct digital 11 controller within it. It's captured within that 12 cost. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm seeing the nods from 15 James, so -- 16 I hope this helps just, you know, show how 17 we're mapping the equipment design into the buildings 18 and what that means for the curb and whatnot. You 19 might argue against some of these things, but at 20 least you know how we did it. You're going to get 21 the installed costs. That's the equipment cost plus 22 the installation cost. On the equipment price side,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 what we're doing is taking that manufacturer 2 production cost that we're getting from the 3 engineering analysis and marking it up with those 4 same markups that we have from the NOPR, the NOPR 5 analysis, into a price that the customer has to pay. 6 And so you see the resulting equipment prices right 7 there on those lines for both seven and a half tons 8 and 15 tons. And for the two -- two types of paths 9 here, the staged air volume and the constant air 10 volume. 11 So from all the way from baseline of 6,000 12 to $1010 for EL5 on seven and a half tons, 12 and a 13 half thousand to almost 20,000 for 15 ton. The other 14 thing I would point out here is that, you know, we, 15 in some of our economic analyses, we try to forecast 16 the price and we do that by looking at purchase price 17 index data from the census, and in this case, there 18 wasn't a distinctive trend, so we did not have a -- 19 any -- any declining prices going out to the future, 20 we had constant real prices. We were analyzing 21 things over our analysis period. 22 MS. MEYERS: So just to recap on this

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 slide, BEGIN NOTE Karen from Rheem. END NOTE 2 efficiency level from 7.5 ton, efficiency level is 3 12.9. You're saying the installed cost is 6850 BEGIN 4 NOTE and the installed cost at efficiency level 5 at 5 21.5 IEER is 10,000? 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. And this is just 7 the equipment price side. I just want to emphasize 8 that. 9 The next slide gets after the installation 10 cost. And so you have to combine those two together 11 to get the total installed cost. 12 MR. THARP: This, that table is. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: This one's for the 14 equipment price. And this next slide will be for the 15 installation cost. Do you see how that varies with 16 efficiency, as well? That's a function of the 17 equipment weight and just, you know tax the -- that 18 ratio and increase in equipment rate to project out 19 the baseline installation cost. 20 MR. deLASKI: Will you just say that 21 again, Greg, because the headings on these two slides 22 are confusing to me.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. The first one that 2 says "total installed cost one" speaks to the 3 equipment price. And the next slide "total installed 4 cost two" speaks to the installation cost. 5 MR. deLASKI: And to get the total 6 installed cost, would you add those two slides? 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Exactly. 8 MR. THARP: So the conversion curbs are in 9 this portion there? 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, conversion curbs are 11 not in here. You'll see what the next slides -- so 12 this does not include diffuser replacement, it does 13 not include the thermostat, it does not include the 14 conversion curb, if one is necessary. This is simply 15 the cost of installing the unit, right, without those 16 other considerations. And, again, what we did there 17 is we had the cost go up for installation as a 18 function of equipment rate -- weight. And we bought 19 the equipment rates from the engineering analysis. 20 MR. STARR: So this is Lewis with the -- 21 so just looking at your seven and half ton, your 22 whatever zero, 2750 and go up to level five, 4361.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 So what literally, if I was talking to a contractor 2 and gave me these two prices and I'm asking him why 3 is this cost one and half times more for a ton, what 4 would you tell him? Because it's heavier. Twice the 5 size? Because it's all the difference. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Possibly. 7 MR. STARR: What's the weight difference 8 between those two, roughly? Is it one and a half 9 times more between a zero. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: I would have to go back to 11 whatever he had in the engineering analysis. A Trane 12 is seven and a half thousand pounds. If you're 13 talking about helicopter lift, it will be different. 14 MR. STARR: Really, a crane lift. 15 MR. THARP: TDS is twice as much. Level 16 one yield one a small is 786 pounds. At a large 15 17 ton is 1463 pounds. A 30-ton is 3212. 18 MR. STARR: Essentially, I'll go check. 19 It won't be hard. When I get home, I'll call up a 20 train operator and ask him how much it is to lift 21 each weight. I don't think it will be $1500 more. 22 That's what we're talking about is lifting the train

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 from the ground. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Wait. Installation costs, 3 there is now a more sophisticated controller on, 4 there you have more sophisticated -- 5 MR. STARR: In the seven -- is that? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You went up in 7 controls. You had the higher level controls, a 8 microprocessor controls. So you have more time doing 9 that, you have more time installing, programming it, 10 probably a hire skill level technician to even do it. 11 MR. STARR: So he has to put in a 12 different thermostat? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. You had a low-level 14 thermostat in your first -- in your lower ones. You 15 went to -- in the engineering analysis, they went to 16 the higher cost stuff, which they should. It will be 17 all microprocessor-based. 18 MR. STARR: But we're not talking about 19 equipment, right? You still have to run a wire from 20 the roof down to -- down to the thermostat. 21 That's the installation cost. It's not the box that 22 you're connecting up with it. The installation cost

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 doesn't -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the electrician. 3 Now you're talking about control wiring. 4 MR. STARR: Control wiring will be local. 5 It won't be an electrician pulling that wire. I used 6 to work at Trane Controls. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: I understand. When you're 8 talking about -- I understand. And Trane Controls 9 will charge way more than the average dealer out 10 there to pull that stuff because the skill level that 11 I have. 12 MR. STARR: It was low voltage, not an 13 electrician. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: What we're getting at, the 15 average HV/AC who does not have an electrician on 16 staff and has a low-level person will probably not do 17 that anymore. You're going to have to go up in 18 change. 19 MR. STARR: I'm telling you, the control 20 wire will be the same, whether it is a fancy 21 thermostat or not. It will be the same guy pulling 22 that.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 108 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree. 2 MR. STARR: This is your number. Why 3 don't you tell me what the difference is? 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry, this is -- no, 5 I mean, we're doing the same thing that we did in the 6 NOPR analysis, which is -- which is a scale of 7 equipment with weight. We didn't receive any adverse 8 comment. 9 MR. STARR: You got them now. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, so we got -- we just 11 went with the same method here, right. And, again, 12 you know, I'm not necessarily here to defend it. 13 MR. STARR: Okay. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is what we did and 15 certainly taking input on whether or not it's the 16 appropriate thing to do. 17 MR. STARR: Well, to me, I'm looking at 18 this and all I really see is potentially the 19 difference in the cost of the crane. In reality, 20 when you order a crane up, yes, they do sends out 21 different sizes, but a lot of times it's gonna be 22 able to handle the amount of weight difference in the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 109 1 two different air handlers. There's a lot of things 2 going in. So I would be very is you priced really to 3 have a higher priced crane based on a higher 4 efficiency piece of equipment. 5 I guess that would be one thing you can 6 collect is just literally check to see what the cost 7 for a crane difference is. The rest of it, to my 8 mind, I don't really -- I mean unless you're seeing 9 something different than I -- I don't see anything 10 other than the crane price in there that's gonna be 11 different, unless you see something now. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I know we did an analysis 13 that agreed with your weighting, but I don't have it 14 out. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: I can't hear down here. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I did not file negative 17 comments, I agreed with the way that they did it 18 because we did an analysis internally based on 19 Trane -- Trane contracting services, and we agreed 20 with how they were using the weight for the amounts 21 of the difference. So I can't -- I don't have that 22 here. I don't know that I'm going to put it in a

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 110 1 public document yet. So I can't say unequivocally 2 what was in there, but we agreed to those increases 3 in cost. And we are a contracting company, and so 4 versus most of these manufacturers in this room 5 aren't. 6 MR. STARR: What I would say is LBNL can 7 do this. Crane companies are in the phone book or 8 now on the internet. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not just crane. Now if 10 you're talking about a heavier weight, you might have 11 to have two people out, there you might have to have 12 three. You know, safety, tie-downs, all those things 13 that have to happen now. 14 MR. deLASKI: So it sounds like -- this is 15 Andrew. 16 It may or may not be that they modeled all 17 those things that you looked at it and they looked 18 reasonable to you. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: It looked reasonable. 20 MR. deLASKI: It might not be the same 21 way. They certainly didn't do it the same way 22 because you're a contractor. You looked at it, you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 111 1 thought they were reasonable. You're wondering 2 whether they are reasonable. 3 MR. STARR: You know, one and a half times 4 the price a contractor told me, you know, if I've got 5 something that is 10,000 pounds and now it is 12,000 6 and told you that it is going to cost you -- or 1100, 7 it is going to cost one and half times the price, 8 that just doesn't jibe. 9 MR. SACHS: Louis -- this Harvey -- 10 MR. STARR: But what I will do, I will go 11 back to Portland and get some prices for you, and 12 when I come back the next meeting, I will tell you. 13 Xxxeven rigging cost? Potentially. If you're using 14 two people. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: You better get it for New 16 York. You better get it for the most expensive 17 markets in the country. 18 MR. STARR: We'll use median. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just getting Portland, my 20 point is Portland not in the median. 21 MR. STARR: But keep in mind, they are 22 lifting these up on stores in the suburbs, they're

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 112 1 not lifting them on 70-story buildings, typically. 2 BEGIN NOTE I'll look into the pricing, but I don't 3 know. I have a lot of heartburn with those numbers. 4 Yes, I will check in on it and we'll see. 5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 6 And, Louis, the only sanity check I'd 7 offer is any tim I've looked for premium equipment, 8 the install cost went up square to the "premiumness." 9 It has nothing to do with weight but with avarice. 10 I'm sorry, "profit margin." 11 MR. STARR: In other words, that's more of 12 the price of the equipment, rather than the 13 installation. 14 MR. SACHS: I stand by what I said on the 15 installation cost. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to move on, 17 then. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, this is Bob 19 Whitwell. 20 Can we back up to the equipment costs? 21 So if I look at this, so I'm seeing that 22 you have the same equipment costs for this staged air

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 113 1 volume versus the constant air volume. And I wonder 2 about. 3 That I'm not quite sure what's different there but in 4 one case, we are going to be add ago VHD for the 5 staged air volume, it's going to add some cost. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, when I say staged 7 air volume, most of where these casings were seven 8 and a half tons, xxxit was just two stages of air 9 flow and two stages of compressor. We are not 10 talking about VFD's. 11 MR. WHITWELL: No, but VFD's are often 12 used to get the two speeds in the fan on these 13 integral horsepower motors. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I'm looking at 15 Detlef's comment on that. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, one thing that 17 occurs to me is, I don't think we had an EL0 or SAV 18 or am I wrong? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: That sounds right. It all 20 should be dashed out, right? 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 22 That should be dashed out. The SAV for zero singe,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 114 1 for SAV, it should be -- should not be there. So -- 2 and -- and -- 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Nor for the dual. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're right, neither nor 5 the dual, right. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So we strike? 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, strike the first 8 two cells for the staged air volume row for seven and 9 half tons. 10 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. 11 If we go to EL1, you're saying the total 12 equipment price difference between the seven and a 13 half ton cost air volume and staged air volume is 14 $52? I think we might need to do a little reality 15 check on that. It is lower on EL2 for a staged air 16 versus a constant air. 17 MR. THARP: Doesn't make sense, but that 18 goes back to the models and what was used in the 19 models. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: And constant air volume, 21 I'm assuming there's more of, you know, increasing 22 the efficiency of the compressor.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 115 1 MR. WHITWELL: There's more coil, more air 2 volume. 3 MR. ROSENQUISDT: You're improving on part 4 load. 5 MR. THARP: Again, that goes back to 6 manufacture choice and how to achieve a certain IEER 7 level. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Just to be clear on these 9 costs, you know, as James was discussing yesterday, 10 we didn't base those costs on the specific models 11 used to get the Representative energy performance of 12 the units. That was based on the averaging that he 13 was explaining. So it was intended to represent the 14 average of how the various manufacturers, the 15 industry, gets to a level use ago CAV path and then 16 using an SAV path. 17 MS. MEYERS: So is this equipment cost or 18 equipment price? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is equipment price. 20 What you saw yesterday is price. 21 MS. MEYERS: So I guess my problem is a 22 staged unit would be cheaper. It is never gonna cost

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 116 1 less than a constant air because despite the cost, it 2 is never -- the price is never gonna be less. I 3 would find that very hard to believe because sit a 4 feature. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 6 The analysis, DOE analysis of evaluating, 7 setting the standard at that level, whether or not 8 it's a feature, it becomes a design choice in the 9 analysis. 10 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, with 11 Lennox. 12 You're basing your cost on your 13 manufacturing cost plus your markup. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right. The 15 numbers that we see in these charts that Greg is 16 showing. 17 MR. WINNINGHAM: You're doing a cost 18 buildup and putting your margin markup on top of that 19 so -- 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: That's why -- 22 MR. AMRANE: One question for Greg or for

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 117 1 you, are you assuming the same markup whether SAV or 2 CAV? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: When you get to those 4 efficiency levels, same markups. 5 MR. AMRANE: I think Karen is saying that 6 is probably not the case. 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Right. In the real 8 world, that's probably not the case, but I understand 9 what you've done. 10 MR. THARP: Another question on equipment 11 cost. As you go higher in EL levels, the values are 12 assuming entire -- that market volume stays the same, 13 is that correct? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: We haven't gotten into 15 shipments but I'm assuming we're going to be talking 16 about a rollup type of analysis where, you know, 17 everything that was at a lower level will then be 18 volume at that higher level. 19 MR. THARP: So there's really, there's not 20 a -- it doesn't -- the equipment cost does not 21 include higher prices that a manufacturer may be 22 charged for the same component if industry volume is

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 118 1 decreased. Does that make sense? 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: That is correct, yes. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, that -- and actually 5 for this analysis, for the NOPR we had what we call 6 the consumer choice on efficient civil but actually 7 what it demonstrated is this is a very first-cost 8 driven product so there is not much gain in 9 efficiency over time. I mean, minute gain in 10 efficiency over time, you know, people are going to 11 keep on continuing -- in other words, people are 12 going to keep on selecting the baseline level piece 13 of equipment. That's what our shipments analysis 14 concluded. So -- but the other -- other part of that 15 is in the NOPR, we have huge shipments drop. One one 16 correct. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the costs that you're 18 seeing are the costs in the life cycle cost, don't 19 necessarily reflect that huge drop. It more or less 20 assumes that you have -- you're shifting, you know, 21 your volumes of production to that higher efficiency 22 level. So --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 119 1 MR. THARP: So that is something we -- I 2 think we should discuss because if we're producing 25 3 to 50 percent less product, our cost per unit 4 actually goes up for the same because they're -- our 5 suppliers, because they're selling less components, 6 they're going to charge us more. We have less 7 efficiencies in our factories, so those are issues 8 that need to be discussed at some point in time. I 9 think they need -- personal opinion is I think they 10 should be included in the analysis, considered. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 12 MR. WHITWELL: So, Detlef, the designs 13 here, these designs that are used here, these are not 14 the designs we saw before that were based on actual 15 products? These are designs that are based on your 16 model, is that right, or are these -- 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are based on 18 actual designs, not the ones listed because the 19 specific ones listed were used for the energy part of 20 the engineering. These are based on all the models 21 for which there's sufficient information givenxxx to 22 estimate the cost. And by sufficient information, I

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 120 1 mean some indication of how large the coil sizes are, 2 how many compressors there are, what kind of fan 3 powers there are BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. So for the 4 seven and a half ton, which is showing only as Karen 5 pointed out $52 difference between SAV and CAV, the 6 CAV has more coil, I guess -- 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. 8 MR. WHITWELL: And the SAV has less coil 9 but it's got a VFD or something to get the two stages 10 and that is all in this cost analysis. BEGIN NOTE 11 BEGIN NOTE. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. In that would be 13 what the difference would be between, you know, we've 14 heard in some of these discussions that, yeah, a 15 drive is, you know, an inexpensive way to achieve 16 efficiency. 17 MR. WHITWELL: It's not $52. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not $52 inexpensive. 19 It is a way to get it but it's not -- versus the 20 two-step motors, which are pretty expensive because 21 their not sold in any volume. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's a lower-cost

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 121 1 way to do it than by other alternatives. But still, 2 it adds some substantial cost. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if you're saying 4 it's a lower cost way than other alternatives. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Other alternative ways to 6 get the staged air volume. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: However, you know, we -- 9 our analysis didn't show that it was a less expensive 10 way to get those efficiency levels, it showed that, 11 you know, maybe it wasn't as expensive as, you know, 12 if you're selling it as, you know, a feature, a 13 value-priced item currently then -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, sure, when you're 15 differentiating, you're gonna have it more expensive. 16 But there is more we you cannot go out and buy a 17 drive for $50. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's not what this -- 19 where it hit that's not what this is saying because 20 there is more coil. 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, with 22 Lennox.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 122 1 To be specific to the model, the CAV has 2 29.9 square feet. The SAV has 29.5. BEGIN NOTE END 3 NOTE I'm not sure that all washes but that's -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers look very 5 similar. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we didn't know what 7 we were gonna find, you know, based on the initial 8 feedback we thought that maybe the variable drive 9 approach would be less expensive. It didn't find up 10 that way. If you look at the curbs, they're fairly 11 close. 12 MR. WINNINGHAM: The question at EL2, 13 though, becomes more of a question, in my mind, 14 because the SAV system has a larger out door coil -- 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Keep in mind that's just 16 one unit at that level and that the costs are based 17 on looking at a range of those levels. 18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. 19 MR. WHITWELL: I think manufacturers would 20 probably not take that approach, given that if those 21 costs are actually -- well, most manufacturers would 22 go with the SAV because it also would then allow them

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 123 1 to comply with building codes. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Actually that's one thing 3 we discussed is whether or not to continue to carry 4 forward a CAV design and a staged air volume design. 5 I guess I was a proponent of since we have CAV 6 buildings and VAB buildings in the analysis, we 7 should continue to put a CAV design into a CAV 8 building and a staged air design in a variable volume 9 building. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Or a staged air volume and 11 constant air volume building. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: That's the thing. Detlef 13 said -- I said if they have a constant air volume 14 building we will stick with a constant air volume 15 unit. But we can certainly change that approach. 16 BEGIN NOTE check all this. BEGIN NOTE. 17 MR. WHITWELL: I'll think about that. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's important 20 that we get these things -- I was hoping today, 21 every -- this is -- I was talking to Javier, it's for 22 later. But at the end of today, we need a path

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 124 1 forward, hard stop. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: Would it help that when 3 we're done with this, depending on the time, but if 4 we have a little bit longer lunch or a little bit of 5 a break to allow folks to make any calls or do 6 whatever they need to do so when we come back, we can 7 try to finalize some of these numbers? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think we'll 9 finalize the numbers but I think we'll finalize, like 10 for this, the groups will say use VAV, use CAV. I 11 mean whatever these particular issues are, it's great 12 that we're asking questions and trying to understand 13 it. But, you know, we need to just say this is the 14 way we're going. 15 MR. STARR: I think I can probably help 16 object your CAV or VAV. Actually Dick and I, we 17 didn't talk about it, so when it goes, when you take 18 your unit out and you put it on a building and you've 19 got a constant air volume system and go to replace it 20 with a new unit, they make you bring it up -- they 21 make you put an economizer on it. But what they 22 probably wouldn't make do you is go back and put a

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 125 1 bunch of VAV boxes in order to complaining the VAV 2 system. So your constant air volume to be replaced 3 by a constant air volume is probably the assumption I 4 would think. 5 MR. WHITWELL: But remember, the SAV is 6 going only about 66 percent. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: The way this analysis is 8 going, you can put a staged air volume design because 9 it doesn't go below a 67 percent air flow into that 10 constant air flow building. The assumption I was 11 basically making is given the choice, a customer 12 would stick with a constant air volume equipment 13 design if they have a constant air volume building. 14 And -- 15 MR. STARR: That's probably a good 16 assumption. They will want to save money. They'll 17 want the cheapest thing possible of the time. Unless 18 they're first cost driven. So whatever they can do 19 to spend less money is what they will probably do. 20 MR. SACHS: Are what you're saying is they 21 ain't gonna put lipstick on a pig. 22 MR. STARR: Well, it would be a good

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 126 1 design. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Lipstick on a pig would be 3 good? 4 MR. STARR: It also depends on which place 5 you're in. If you're in more closer to the bigger 6 cities, that'll make you actually -- California will 7 probably make you -- 8 MR. HUNT: Yes, we will. 9 MR. STARR: Yeah, California will make you 10 go to the VAV system. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move to 12 the conversion curb in thermostats now. 13 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charles. If you 14 go back to slide 73 -- can you hear me still? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: There's some kind of 16 feedback, Charlie. 17 MR. SACHS: We heard you ten times, 18 Charlie? 19 MR. McCRUDDEN: Is it working now? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. 21 MR. McCRUDDEN: Installation costs 22 representing labor through that is fixed but the only

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 127 1 thing that has a variable installation cost based on 2 the weight? 3 MR. SACHS: Charlie, this is Harvey. 4 I'm trying to interpret it. I understood 5 that equipment rate -- weight is used as a proxy for 6 all of the extra things except the conversion curb 7 that are involved in the higher efficiency equipment. 8 It's -- it's a approximately for weight, rather than 9 anything else. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, that's correct. 11 Thank you, Harvey, that's exactly it. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And, Charlie, this is Jill. 13 When it came to the NOPR and we looked at these 14 numbers, I can tell you from Trane contracting 15 perspective, which is only one, I realize, we did add 16 up those numbers and felt that they were 17 Representative of the changes that happened, whether 18 you use it by weight or whatever, they were coming 19 within the same, the same area. But your group could 20 certainly go and do that a lot broader than just -- 21 just my company, so -- 22 MR. McCRUDDEN: That's something I might

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 128 1 look at. I'm getting an odd feedback on my end. I 2 think we'll have something to that next week. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Should I continue, even 4 though he lost two people? This is the conversion 5 and the stat costs. We talked to people who said the 6 conversion curb cost was in the range of a thousand 7 to $2,000. We went ahead with a thousand dollars 8 because of the fact that we're already increasing the 9 install -- let's call it the normal installation cost 10 with equipment weight. So starting at efficiency 11 levels three -- efficiency level three, we are adding 12 this a thousand dollars per unit to accommodate a 13 conversion curb. 14 On the thermostat, you can see that we're 15 just -- we went to a web site, got a price for -- for 16 thermostats, right, and these are the prices for 17 different types of staged or -- or variable-speed 18 equipment. Again, our assumption here is that the 19 installation associated with that thermostat would 20 not change based upon the type of thermostat you're 21 putting in. So, again, you can see that at the 22 extreme level, $180 to $310. That's only a $130

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 129 1 difference. 2 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob, from Carrier. 3 So debt let when you talked to our conversion curb 4 supplier, I don't know whether you want to have Greg 5 join or not but I think you need to talk with him as 6 far as the cost, as well. Because we're seeing 7 significantly higher costs when you get up to 60 ton. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right? I mean the thousand 10 to two thousand applies to the low end, but then as 11 you get bigger, the cost goes up substantially. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So even that 30 ton 13 doesn't -- it's not a now sand. That doesn't even 14 come close to what the cost of it is. 15 MR. STARR: Probably look at the weight of 16 equipment sales. In other words, if they're selling 17 one percent at the 60 tons, as opposed to -- you 18 know, you have to do it on a shipment basis, the 19 costs, right, as well. So, in other words, if 20 they're selling primarily 20-ton curbs, what's the 21 price of that? If they're selling how many 30 22 percent tons -- or 30 tons they're using, use that

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 130 1 weight to get your price for your curb, real curb, 2 which I guess you'll have it -- sounds like from the 3 HR value, you will have pins seven and a half -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Small, large, very large. 5 Lieu okay. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: The DOE definition. 7 MR. STARR: Sewn that group you don't know 8 how many -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Nope. 10 MR. STARR: The same problem yesterday. 11 You don't know how many are 20 tons, how many are 30 12 tons. It's too granular. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: It's getting too granular. 14 MR. STARR: How about -- half? Well, 15 they're not all 60 tons, right? Where it hit they're 16 not all 60. 17 MR. STARR: Well, anyway, something for 18 you to think about. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: And again this, is an 20 easy thing to modify because this doesn't -- this 21 goes into the life cycle cost spreadsheet, it's just 22 one input.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 131 1 If I can talk to Detlef' contact, then 2 maybe we can really resolve it. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Let me give you one, too. 4 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. 5 Can you hear me? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, Meg. 7 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Just a question. I'm 8 sorry, if I missed. Are you applying the conversion 9 curb cost to all replacements of proposition level 10 two -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 12 MS. WALTNER: -- or just a percentage? 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, all. 14 MR. STARR: But I thought we talked about 15 that a little bit yesterday on the other analysis 16 that that would be changed a little bit. Not 17 necessary less all replacement units needed a 18 conversion curb. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I guess that's the 20 question, right, what level does -- is a conversion 21 curb required, right? Right now we're assuming 22 efficiency level three and Detlef or James presented

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 132 1 a slide yesterday showing, you know, curb -- curb 2 size is a function of -- was that it? Curb size is a 3 function of IEER level. It did provide information 4 for individual manufacturers, but should I put that 5 screen up again? 6 MR. WHITWELL: There's no easy answer to 7 it, right. So what we talked about yesterday was 8 looking at some more capacity size, right, to see if 9 we could come up with some reasonable assumption that 10 we can all agree on. 11 MR. STARR: Yeah. I'd be fine with that. 12 And so that -- I guess it's really the same stuff 13 that they were working on yesterday applies to the 14 same stuff today, correct, understanding what that 15 percentage is of -- of the EL3 levels that go on 16 existing buildings, what percentage of those don't 17 get curbs and which percentage do get curbs, right? 18 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey and I'm 19 trying to think like a designer. It's not an area 20 where I've experienced. But at some point for some 21 buildings, particularly where I'm doing other 22 retrofits or stuff like that at the same time, the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 133 1 question comes up, given the existing oversize, am I 2 better off going to an E -- an EL2 at the same 3 capacity or going up to an EL3 and downsizing so I 4 don't need to have a conversion curb. I think the 5 argument, at least conceptually, can be made that 6 between the -- what we used to call in telecom 7 breakage things, the inherent oversizing and these 8 broader retrofit questions that some decrement so 9 that not all the EL3's, maybe ten percent of them are 10 not going to require curb cuts, probably be a lower 11 fraction as you go up from EL3. I think there would 12 be a comfort factor in not assuming a hundred 13 percent. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I agree, it's not a 15 hundred percent. No question. 16 MR. SACHS: It's symbolic, though. 17 MR. WHITWELL: It's probably 99. 18 MR. SACHS: Now it's just the oldest 19 profession, we're arguing about the price. 20 MR. STARR: I'm wondering does the AEO 21 have something in terms of remodels? It's basically 22 when you're doing a number of units, a larger square

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 134 1 footage that then you may be also redoing your roof 2 cuts and can actually size for the current unit. 3 MR. WHITWELL: We can maybe settle on 4 something. I mean there's probably -- there may be 5 data out there, but I don't know that we have time to 6 sort through and get to it. I think we got to kind 7 of just pick a number. It's not 99, either. 8 MR. STARR: I was just hoping AEO had. I 9 don't know what they have. 10 MR. SACHS: No. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe it's 75 percent of 12 the replacements, I don't know. 13 MR. STARR: Sold. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going to move on. 15 So this is the diffuser replacement costs 16 slide. Again, as you saw earlier, what we're 17 thinking it's necessary for is the EL's 4 and 5, When 18 you're putting those designs into a constant air 19 volume building. And it's -- it's based, this cost, 20 write is pretty extreme or seems extreme to me. It 21 is based on data from Taylor Engineering, an outfit 22 in San Francisco, and also getting labor costs from

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 135 1 RS means. Again, we're using this device called is a 2 self-powered VAV diffuser. Again, it's supposed to 3 be a cheaper option to putting in a VAV box. By the 4 way, each diffuser costs between 200 and $250 more 5 than a conventional diffuser. And then also 6 temperature sensors, in order to control that 7 diffuser, are also required and sophistication of 8 those sensors depends upon whether or not you have 9 direct digital control in the unit. So you know, the 10 level of detail here shows that we're just -- you 11 know, we didn't necessarily know exactly what type of 12 diffuser we're talking about here, in terms of 13 whether it's -- what size or its perforated or 14 rectangular or circular. But the bottom line is when 15 you -- as you get to the diffuser cost per ton -- 16 actually these are -- those are those last columns. 17 Forget about the SQ, that's a typo. But you see 18 there that the average price for a VAV diffuser is 19 $71 per ton, a thousand dollars per ton, if you 20 include the temperature sensor and then the more 21 sophisticated one for a DVC system, goes up to 2600 22 per ton.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 136 1 MR. STARR: This is Louis, again. 2 Are these installed costs? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 4 MR. STARR: I am looking at 1818. You've 5 got 1207. That's roughly 400 bucks for a diffuser 6 installed, which might be a little bit high but it's 7 not too bad. So that is installed cost? 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. And their solution, 9 it sounds like a -- Taylor engineering is, this 10 their -- was that kinds of their solution for 11 retrofitting a solution going back, putting this 12 diffuser? 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: They called it a 14 lost-cost option. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is what he presented to 16 the California Energy Commission. This is all he did 17 to do that. 18 MR. STARR: So this is what you have to do 19 in California when you go from a CAV system to a VAV? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah because it's now the 21 law. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: The way I read it, it's

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 137 1 an option, it's a low-cost option. What they do 2 actually in the field is a whole other thing, right? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So -- 5 MR. STARR: Well, I would say, I can tell 6 you other places in the country, they just go ahead 7 and switch out, not doing anything to the diffuser, 8 they just change out the unit. Whatever happened, 9 happened. But I understand, your analysis, you 10 really designed a solution that actually works, so -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Maybe you can chew on 12 these costs. Right now, as it stands, the they only 13 apply for efficiency levels four and 5 when you put 14 those designs into a constant air volume building. 15 That's where they're applied. 16 So I'm going do move -- shall I move on or 17 do you -- this is talking about the effective energy 18 prices that we use and we didn't do any updates to 19 this energy price analysis since the NOPR. You know, 20 it's a price that's derived from looking at energy 21 built information from EEI, is that our information 22 here or are these the tariff?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 138 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Tariffs. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Tariff. We collected 3 tariffs from 90 utilities, over 200 tariffs and 4 analyzed those tariffs to get an effective marginal 5 price that's derived from both energy charges and 6 demand charges. So you can -- you can see those 7 values there. We have a marginal demand price, 8 dollar for KW and a marginal unusual user consumption 9 price, which is cents per kilowatt hour. Again, 10 these haven't varied at all since what we did for the 11 NOPR, but you can see here how they vary by region. 12 MR. STARR: I was also going to say, when 13 I saw your notes back here, what you did for your -- 14 this is to correct something earlier. On your 15 pricing for your installation cost of equipment, you 16 used RS means is what you used, so it wasn't just 17 cost. Whatever is in RS means is attributing the 18 cost and they must be doing it by the size of 19 equipment is what it's doing. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Which slide are you 21 using? 22 MR. STARR: It was the one with

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 139 1 installation cost and I was saying the crane doesn't 2 cost that much. But what you're using is RS means. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're using RS means to 4 establish the baseline cost and scaling that up. 5 MR. STARR: Yeah, slide 73. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm going move on to -- 7 to talk about how we project prices out into the 8 future. I mean those prices you saw here were for 9 the compliance year and then we take them and 10 forecast them out into the future with the AEO. I'm 11 plotting there the last three AEO's 2013, 2014, 2015. 12 We're using 2015 in this analysis and things haven't 13 changed dramatically over these last three AEO's. 14 And we used the 2013 actually in the NOPR. Now we're 15 using the 2015 in this current analysis. 16 Maintenance costs, again, we're basing 17 these solely on RS means. The key here is we're 18 assuming that they do not change with efficiency. So 19 it's like we could have almost assumed it was a 20 million dollars for maintenance costs and it wouldn't 21 have any impact on the analysis because we're 22 assuming it's constant.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 140 1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen, with Rheem. 2 Why do you assume that it's constant? 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're assuming here that 4 it captures routine things like cleaning coils and 5 just doing the normal maintenance checks that folks 6 do. It doesn't involve replacing major components, 7 for example, that xxxmay sale. That's captured in 8 the repair costs. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Would that be filters, 10 though? Because filters have not gone up when the 11 square footage have gone up. 12 MR. THARP: Correct. That's the most 13 common. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This doesn't include 15 filters. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: So filter costs have gone 17 up. 18 MR. THARP: If you look at space on the 19 evaporator side, that could be used as a guide for 20 how much more filters have gotten for the various 21 EL's. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: So we could use the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 141 1 evaporator size from the engineering as a way to 2 increase this maintenance cost, then. 3 MR. THARP: Yeah. Each evaporator and 4 coil. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm Jill from Trane. 6 Filters, you know, it is, but it's not 7 gonna be hundreds of dollars. 8 MR. THARP: No. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: You're seeing where we 10 are starting from, too. It's a relatively low price. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It's gonna be -- 12 maybe when you're looking at a 30-ton unit now you 13 have increased your overall evap site. You have 14 several filters in, there you know, it's gonna go up 15 ten, $20 just for filters. 16 MS. MEYERS: When you group in -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Because you're probably 18 continuing the low option filter there. You're not 19 going to our high efficiency filters, that kind of 20 stuff. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, we can do that 22 easily, right. Just scale by evaporator size to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 142 1 increase this. 2 MS. MEYERS: But I think it's more than 3 filters, though, but I don't know how to quantify it. 4 Typically the more efficient the unit gets, the more 5 the maintenance costs increase because you're 6 using -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: More sophisticated controls. 8 MS. MEYERS: More sophisticated controls 9 and such as that. How would you quantify that? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: You have more space areas to 11 clean if you're cleaning coil. You have more face 12 area to clean. 13 MR. THARP: There's repair part, repair 14 costs and maintenance are separate, right? 15 MS. MEYERS: It's still maintenance. 16 MR. THARP: Still maintenance. Should go 17 up as a result. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think we're 19 getting more sophisticated, it's the A plus BX type 20 thing. There is a base cost for a guy going out 21 there four times a year to look under the hood and 22 then an additional component for the bigger filters,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 143 1 a few other things that will have to be checked. But 2 the question is whether the analysis warrants the 3 additional so NIST case, if there's enough leverage. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Even if you say 5 that's $20, that's high, I don't know what that does 6 to that. Probably not a lot. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Certainly that's not 8 going to have a huge -- I mean, it will have a small 9 effect, if any. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't imagine there being 11 hundreds, it would be 20 to a hundred. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember 13 we're dealing with equipment prices thousands of 14 dollars here, right, you know, and -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So it's not -- I 16 don't know how we would price it. 17 MR. SACHS: I suspect the variability is 18 small compared to the number of RTU's they can fit on 19 the same site visit, it's windshield time and a lot 20 of other things. I'm not sure it's worth getting 21 into detail on this one. That that they said they 22 clean coils.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 144 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's not go into skill 2 level and what they do. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: So these are 4 noncompressor repair costs. Again, we're doing 5 something relatively straightforward. We're taking, 6 getting repair costs out of RS means, scaling that 7 with equipment price and then in the analysis, 8 assuming that that price occurs in the tenth year of 9 the equipment's life, to get a present value for the 10 life cycle cost calculation. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: So where did that come from? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: The tenth year? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was purely our 15 estimate. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: It was in RS means. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was in RS means? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Sorry. She is the one 20 who did the repair costs obviously. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I find that interesting 22 because you have fans and contactors that are almost

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 145 1 always going to go out in four or five years so 2 you're getting a repair visit for contactors and 3 relays likely twice before this ten years. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that includes 5 anything that -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It includes the compressor 7 and more expensive stuff I realize. 8 MR. THARP: Yeah and internal analysis 9 what I would see is the typical bathtub curb, right? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 11 MR. THARP: You have a lot more on the 12 front end, its near-end-of-life failures, then near 13 end of life -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Start wrapping up again. I 15 didn't know where that came from, but that's -- 16 whether it's seven, if we made it seven, is that 17 substantially -- because these costs aren't huge 18 compared to like you said, the install cost and all 19 this other, so -- 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. I mean, if you 21 move up from ten to seven, would it make a little bit 22 of a difference. I mean you're talking about three

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 146 1 less years of discounting, right, to get a present 2 value and that can be -- you know, I think our 3 discount rate in this analysis is almost five 4 percent, so it could. Again, the only place we're 5 getting it from is the RS Means, that year over ten. 6 MR. SACHS: It's not only RS means, this 7 is RS means national. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 9 MR. SACHS: Not formulation driven or 10 anything like that because those labor costs vary 11 enormously. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE so, again, it 12 sounds to me like signal to noise ratio of getting 13 more sophisticated is not likely to be real high. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Charlie, you may or may not 15 be on mute, but, Charlie, I was wondering if maybe 16 you could get from contractors whether they agree 17 with this as a ten-year or should it be more like a 18 seven-year, averaging the more expensive repair costs 19 with the more minor ones. If you can get a sense or 20 feel for that maybe by our next meeting. 21 MR. McCRUDDEN: I think if I'm not on 22 mute, and the answer is yes.

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 147 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks. 2 MR. McCRUDDEN: I can put together some 3 information by next week. 4 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen, with Rheem. 5 Did we cross out the staged air volume on 6 zero single to single zero dual again? Did we 7 cross -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. Yes. 9 MS. MEYERS: So then we go back BEGIN NOTE 10 and then we go back to what I had with equipment 11 cost, we say the peer cost with efficiency level one 12 and two, it's actually less per staged air volume at 13 efficiency level two than the constant air volume 14 unit. So I still question that relationship, you 15 know, very minimal differences. So -- where it hit 16 that's just scaled from the costs so that is why. 17 MS. MEYERS: I think that may be an 18 inherent issue in the analysis is we're staging all 19 this from the cost. I'm not sure that's appropriate. 20 MR. STARR: This is Louis again. So the 21 non-compressor repair costs that are things like your 22 heat exchanger, all the other pieces that can go

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 148 1 wrong, and is there a warranty on that in terms of 2 those pieces, like heat exchanger is probably not 3 going go out, right? It has a 15 or 20-year 4 warranty. So this is, say, inside the ten years what 5 can basically go wrong and RS means has a little 6 column for that that indicates this ten year. 7 MR. THARP: The warranty is typically 8 parts only. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Commercial? Parts 10 only. Your quoting residential warrants right there. 11 You're not quoting commercial warranties by any 12 means. 13 MR. STARR: They have some on the 14 compressors. But the other items, you have a heat 15 exchanger warranty on your commercial. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Relay, contactors, you know 17 how many are in those? A lot. And motors. You're 18 gonna have motor issues, maybe an outdoor fan motor 19 in five years. 20 MR. STARR: So they're saying 1600 over 21 ten years. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: On a 30-ton, you've got, you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 149 1 know, four of the fan motors. 2 MR. STARR: So that number, let's just 3 take your seven and half ton, $1600, how did you look 4 that up in RS means? Do they have a column for that 5 or how did they -- 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'll let Alison respond 7 to that. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So RS Means looked at 9 different things like controlled applied fans, 10 bearings, motors, fans, et cetera, and so we're just 11 excluding the compressor line item from these and 12 taking the rest of it. 13 MR. STARR: That's fine. To some extent 14 RS means is about -- to use something better than 15 that is pretty hard unless you get -- okay, that's 16 good. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. We will move ton 18 the next one, which is just the compressor repair 19 costs. One thing I didn't note before is that 20 those -- those noncompressor repair costs are applied 21 to all, all consumers, all units in the analysis. 22 The compressor repair costs are applied only to 20

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 150 1 percent of units, figuring that on average, only 20 2 percent of compressors are going to fail in the life 3 of the product. So again, we're applying these 4 compressor repair costs in the tenth year of the 5 product's lifetime and we're using, as I think I 6 noted earlier, the labor from RS means but for the -- 7 for the actual compressor itself, we're getting that 8 from Granger. We're scaling that to get the cost, to 9 get the price associated with each of the efficiency 10 levels. And so this is the result of doing that 11 analysis. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill, from Trane. 13 And so then the one thing that you did 14 then with the 30-ton is you said that basically took 15 the -- took the life that much longer, is that right? 16 So if it was a 17-year life, you repaired the 17 compressor at ten and now you've put another 17 years 18 into its life? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you'll see, and I 20 think in the next slide that we -- I'm jumping the 21 gun. You'll see the shipments analysis next week but 22 we, based upon -- we got a lot of negative comments

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 151 1 on our -- on our analysis and we revamped it. One of 2 the things that we -- we no longer do is assume that 3 the 30-tons, when it encounters a compressor repair 4 and it -- every single unit is gonna choose to repair 5 rather than replace. So we're no longer doing that. 6 But, also, we're no longer having the same product 7 lifetime for every unit. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Okay. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the 30-ton units have 10 a lifetime of over 30 years in our revamped analysis. 11 And that's more or less based upon -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I love that. Thank you for 13 giving us that reliability and durability that we 14 don't have. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: We're basically doing it 16 on a very few historical shipments values we have and 17 trying to fit a lifetime value to that. You want the 18 comment further on that, Katie? 19 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, this is Katie. I 20 just wanted to make sure we are awaiting new data, 21 right, from you. So the lifetimes are estimated by 22 calibrating the shipments model. So if we get more

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 152 1 recent shipments, that estimate may change. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, thank you for making 3 that point. But right now, we just -- we just have 4 limited data and this is what we're getting from it. 5 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I thought 6 DOE did have -- I forgot what they call it, but it's 7 basically a thing the equipment goes it's 20, a 8 lifetime decay. I forget the exact term. It's not 9 the YO -- it basically shows that equipment, you can 10 repair something for only so long, then eventually, 11 you can't repair it. Actually it was in our 12 comments. And then making joint comments and those 13 as well. I'll go back and find it. Really, 30 years 14 for a unit is approaching very unrealistic -- we all 15 agree, hey? What number do you think -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Anecdotally, I have on a 17 40-ton unit that's been up there -- that's been up 18 there for 40 years, so as long as I've worked there. 19 MR. SACHS: So equipment life is 20 proportional to time. 21 MR. STARR: If you go to the database that 22 has all the equipment life of course you look in

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 153 1 there, admittedly that's people that's registering 2 their equipment, seeing how long it is, there's not 3 very many things over 25 years in that. 4 MS. COUGHLIN: Equipment age is not 5 lifetime. 6 MR. STARR: That's true. Doesn't 7 necessarily. But the other one, though, it does 8 kinds of realistically, though, the units do get -- 9 30 years is better. It's better than 40 -- 36 10 before, actually. I think it's more in the range of 11 somewhere between 20, 20 and 27 is more like the 12 realistic number. Although I am kind of curious why 13 the manufacturers, wouldn't you all want a longer 14 lifetime or -- or no? I was trying to figure out. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a balance of paying up 16 front for that or not. 17 MR. STARR: It will affect your shipments 18 number. Anyway, I see. I mean, if you assume it 19 means your shipments would drop off because we would 20 have to buy units whether they wanted to northxxx 21 because of the shorter lifetime but the cost is 22 transferred back to the front.

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 154 1 MS. HOOTMAN: You have to put in more 2 durable, your fans, your bearings. All nah from the 3 beginning has to be thicker metal, heavier sheet 4 metal. You look at those industrial units, there's a 5 difference. 6 MR. STARR: Of course the price that we're 7 reflecting today doesn't include that upgrade, right? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. But you 9 know, if you are going to make them last that long in 10 your analysis, then you have to go back and load all 11 those costs in for all those years. 12 MR. STARR: Seems like the easier thick 13 would be to assume a shorter list lifetime. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I would say they are a 15 little long ir their lifetime. 16 MR. STARR: A little long in the tooth. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, are we talking -- 18 are we off the compressor repair or -- and onto the 19 equipment lifetime now. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: So this first part is 22 just, it's a repeat from what we had presented from

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 155 1 the NOPR analysis, just trying to demonstrate that, 2 you know, the lifetime is longer than the 15, 16-year 3 time period, at least as indicated by this 4 information in the ASHRAE database. BEGIN NOTE. 5 As Katie said in the shipping analysis, to 6 use that to call plate what a lifetime would be in 7 our shipments model, BEGIN NOTE this is what we come 8 out with. You can see the mean and median values for 9 each of the three equipment classes. 21, 23, 34. I 10 don't know if this -- I don't know, if you're shaking 11 your head about the 30-ton? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree with any of 13 them. 14 MS. COUGHLIN: So, again, the -- we have 15 probably very poor information on relative market 16 share, so that's another thing that influences -- 17 essentially the stock turnover depends on the market 18 share, so we have a low market share and -- anyway, 19 my point is -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm having trouble figuring 21 that out. 22 MS. COUGHLIN: I'm explain the mechanics

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 156 1 next time. What I want to say is market share also 2 affects calibration. So it's not just shipments but 3 also relative market share will influence the way we 4 try to match what we think drives the stock turnover 5 with the actual data. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, and also, isn't the 7 next comment relating to that? I mean, if you think 8 the mean is 18.4 and 18.7, then that's also relating 9 to where you have the shipments and the turnover 10 happen, is that correct? 11 **A. Yes.** 12 Q. So I also don't agree with 18.4 and 18.7. 13 MR. AMRANE: I guess how would you explain 14 the complaining between 21.1 and 32.7? 15 MR. STARR: It seems like it went the 16 wrong direction. 17 MR. AMRANE: Explain what it means. Do 18 you have the same kind of mechanical system? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: The big change is 20 inclusion of these compressor repairs in the base 21 case, which we didn't have before. So that's -- I 22 know that before in terms of the LCL analysis where

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 157 1 we went from -- that's a driver to go from 18 to 21 2 years, effectively. 3 MR. STARR: So really before you were at 4 36 because you replaced the compressor and assumed 5 another lifetime. So actually you're coming down 6 from 36 to 21, is that -- 7 **A. Well, you're thinking -- you're thinking** 8 **of only the 30 ton when you say that because --** 9 MS. COUGHLIN: The calibration for the 10 shipments is the service lifetime. It's the lifetime 11 someone owns it whether it is replaced or not. That 12 should include the base case repair that Greg is 13 referring to. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: What you're thinking of 15 we had in the last analysis when you repair the unit 16 in the north, you extend the lifetime. BEGIN NOTE 17 for 7.5 and 15 tons, not all units got repaired. In 18 30-tons, they did. So there where we had an 19 effective lifetime of 36 years for 30 tons, right? 20 But in the other two classes, you know, for some of 21 the standard levels where you had a huge decrease, 22 yes, for that fraction, it would effectively double

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 158 1 the lifetime. But in the base case for seven and a 2 half and 15 tons, the mean was 18 years. 3 MR. STARR: So really when you say the 4 lifetime, the lifetime's really 21, what most units 5 are replaced at is 18 or -- 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. 7 That was the old analysis. I put that up there for 8 comparison. So what we're doing now in the life 9 cycle cost analysis where these lifetimes come 10 from -- our current base ship estimate of what the 11 lifetime should be. And what we had in the past were 12 those 18-year values. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: So that is again the 14 lifetime including the assumption of a certain 15 fraction of compressor repairs. So it's not 16 necessarily you have a lifetime without that major 17 repair that would extend. 18 MR. STARR: So to got 21 years, are you 19 replacing the compressor twice? 20 MS. COUGHLIN: We're trying to calibrate a 21 distribution of lifetimes to the shipment method. 22 So these --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 159 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Also, remember 20 percent 2 of units are getting compressor repair. 3 MR. STARR: Right. So it's skewing it a 4 little bit up. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's moving it out. 6 MR. STARR: Isn't it a stretch to think a 7 unit on average can go out and install a bunch of 8 units that each one in general is going to last 21 9 years, knowing that 20 percent -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just not gonna happen. 11 MR. STARR: It seems like first of all, 12 people tear off units that are in good shape and 13 throw them away or put them on Craig's List. 14 MS. COUGHLIN: The distribution is pretty 15 broad. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Craig's List? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really? Put that on the 19 record. 20 MR. SACHS: You can get them dry shipped. 21 MS. COUGHLIN: I think we should probably 22 just wait for the next meeting to get into this

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 160 1 because we're going to have a whole presentation on 2 the shipments model. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: On that note, though, 5 I'll just make another plea for whatever data we can 6 get from AHRI. 7 MS. MEYERS: Jess I know you don't have it 8 by efficiency but the shipment that by size is 9 released monthly from AHRI in a monthly statistical 10 release so it's there. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't think it's /T-T 12 granularity here what we're talking about here, air 13 cooled three phase equipment class. 14 MS. MEYERS: Well, it would be cheaper -- 15 MR. STARR: If we got that from the 16 manufacturer could we use that? 17 MS. MEYERS: I'm looking at them. 18 MR. STARR: The answer to that was "yes," 19 by the way. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Just 21 foreshadowing next week's discussion, but how did you 22 use the ASHRAE database?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 161 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. That was just 2 information that that was at least validated to us 3 that the equipment lifetime should be longer than 15 4 to 16 years. 5 MR. SACHS: Thanks. 6 This is Harvey, again. 7 I guess one of the questions that's been 8 on my mind since I worked on this kind of data 15 9 years ago is to what extent models are being produced 10 or having been introduced in the last few years are 11 really comparable to the models for which we now have 12 full service life information? There's a sense 13 there, Mr. Demmingxxx and others have introduced a 14 method that might have cut or safety factors or 15 margins and manufacturing dollars have gotten higher. 16 BEGIN NOTE so there's a sense I have that it is going 17 to be certain amount of uncertainty involved in 18 forward projections of service life. I'm looking for 19 comments from the manufacturers. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a valid point. A valid 21 point. I will say that I will agree with ASHRAE at 22 16 years and only five very small percentage live to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 162 1 22 years. That would be more what we see. We look 2 at our shipment data and history and see how it turns 3 over, we would see it more in the 16 year. 4 MR. SACHS: And, of course, your equipment 5 lasts much longer than anyone else's. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Not necessarily. 7 MR. THARP: Jill? 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Something beats a Trane? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not saying that we're 10 exceptional. I'm not. 11 MR. STARR: I don't know what a weeble 12 distribution looks like -- 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like this. For the 14 record, it looked like this. BEGIN NOTE indicates 15 END NOTE. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, it's Y. 17 MR. SACHS: Goes up, then is flattened off 18 the table. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I guess also for the record, 20 I would say will is no way you put a compressor in a 21 10-year-old unit that it will live another ten years. 22 Every other component has already been in that

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 163 1 system, had a lot of life on it and a lot of 2 degradation. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: So it is not a new unit by 5 any means. 6 MS. COUGHLIN: We would welcome any input 7 you have on that because we really have no 8 information to understand how long -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's just practicality. Do 10 you put a new engine in your car at 200,000 miles and 11 think it's going to go another 200,000? Everything 12 else about that car is rusting apart and falling 13 apart so it's not gonna -- it's not gonna go. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: There could be a 15 disconnect from the contractor side when they come. 16 I'm going to relate more to residential experience. 17 I maybe they're not -- I think there is some level of 18 promise from a repair guy who comes in and pretty 19 much makes that sales pitch. I'm not saying I agree 20 with it but he will probably say you'll get a whole 21 other life out of this thing and that's what people 22 are basing that decision on, which is a disconnect

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 164 1 from our analysis. 2 MR. STARR: The contractor usually tries 3 to up-sell for more labor, bringing in, selling 4 selling a more expensive piece of equipment. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: If the guy says I'm not 6 paying $5200, the next point of making money is 7 saying I can get the compressor switched out and get 8 you another ten years. 9 MR. STARR: He tries to sell the most 10 expensive thing first. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Smart guy. 12 MR. STARR: I actually did call a couple 13 of mechanical contractors, just to get their take on 14 it. In general, they said if -- well, and these were 15 reputable contractors. So, in general, they looked 16 at it and they thought it was a better -- usually 17 people were first cost sensitive and so they just 18 wanted to replace it, keep replacing because their 19 lease would be over in three years and they -- 20 sometimes how the leases were written, they would 21 have to pay for the replacement unit so that drove 22 them to make maybe not the best decision. But a lot

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 165 1 of times, they would try to sell the, you know, we 2 can replace this, it as not going to last very much 3 longer. Typically with compressors they said when 4 they go back to replace it, they have burnout. 5 Something happened to the motor and they distribute 6 it to the system. They go back and try to clean it. 7 So when they put in a new economizer you don't have 8 the same life because you have all this carbon in the 9 system, so it messes up your compressor. So instead 10 of getting ten years out of your money in the first 11 one, they get half the life in the second one. 12 So they would usually tell the home owner that or the 13 person who calls in the system. You're probably 14 going to have more problems sooner, so you're not 15 going to double your life. There are a lot ever 16 other things like the coils themselves are rusting 17 away. You can replace those, it's like an old car, 18 there are so many things that start to go wrong on it 19 that you definitely have a real degradation of it. 20 Then there are are a certain portion that are costs 21 can, and they just want to get it till next year when 22 their lease is over.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 166 1 So there is kind after mix of that. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So once we get the new HR 3 data and Katie puts it in the model, the fact of the 4 matter is, those numbers shake out from strict data. 5 You know, to me, as an analyst, it's hard for me to 6 just ignore what the data tell you, just because I 7 think it should be 25. You know, I don't -- the 8 shipments are gonna give you the answer. That shakes 9 out from the shipments. So unless someone has that 10 better way to describe that relationship, we should 11 definitely either say that the shipment data are a 12 reliable way of calculating these numbers or they're 13 not. 14 MR. STARR: That's actually I guess more 15 after question of a manufacturer since they filled 16 out the data. Do you think that will kind reef veal 17 that information? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I have no idea how it play 19 noose that formula at all. I have no idea how, I 20 really don't understand how it goes into that 21 formula. But I can tell you that we look at it all 22 the time what our history of sales and when's the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 167 1 next time, you know, stuff is -- because we know how 2 much we've sold and when are -- when are things going 3 to start to break. And we look at 15 and 16 years. 4 That is where the peak of the curve is. It might be 5 more like 17 on your -- on your 30 tons plus. It 6 might just shift a little bit on those. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: The mean or median can be 8 what it is and, you know, the curve could be very 9 steep or it could be more flat around that. So -- 10 but generally speaking, they cluster around that 11 central point of failure. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. I would agree. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: You agree. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no question there's 15 that -- 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We agree it's not linear. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's good. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: So I think, Greg, do you 20 know what the late day of shipments that has come 21 out, the last year, rather from? It's a long time 22 ago. So commercial construction boom after the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 168 1 period when we have shipments data, so we really do 2 not have -- we have like the -- 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was for the last rule 4 and I think it might have been up to 1999 or 2000 5 that we provided data for. Then we have to do 6 basically from census data for the more recent years 7 and that's high. 8 MR. STARR:xxx well, it's uncertain, put it 9 that way. 10 MS. COUGHLIN: The other issue is for 11 saturation we had to rely on CBECS 99. In 2008, they 12 changed the sampling procedure and 2012 just came 13 out. So essentially we're trying to get to 1999 to 14 now with nothing. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Not nothing. 16 We just have to deduce and make assumptions. 17 MR. STARR: Essentially you know what the 18 shipments were in 1999. Xxyou know what if 19 distributions were of those shipments to build it. 20 So now when the interrogatory says provide 21 information for 2011 or 2014, you will no how many of 22 those units are still running or got replaced, is

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 169 1 that how you're making the decision? 2 MS. COUGHLIN: Again, I don't want to talk 3 about the details. Just think if you ever had to 4 extrapolate, anything can happen. I'm kind of 5 extrapolating, you have the a data. 6 MR. STARR: You're ex-trapping not 7 extrapolating BEGIN NOTE. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah. 9 MR. STARR: You feel comfortable you would 10 be able to modify this stuff assuming it was 11 different, you would be able to mod my the data 12 fairly easy to more data points, feel pretty secure 13 in getting the number off the screen in lifetime. 14 MS. COUGHLIN: I won't say "secure." That 15 would be a big improvement on the confidence and the 16 number -- who knows what the number will change. 17 MR. STARR: Okay. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: We are moving on to the 19 next slide, then. This talks about the discount 20 rate, which is as I'm sure is used to value future 21 operating cost savings in the analysis. Again, no 22 changes here actually. We didn't do anything to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 170 1 update the discount rates from the NOPR for this 2 analysis. And I think a lot of you are familiar 3 here. We use this weighted average capital cost 4 technique where we, you know, look at the first who 5 would be buying this equipment and assess their -- 6 their, you know, their holdings, how much they hold 7 in debt and equity to come up with what we feel is 8 something that would be Representative of how they 9 would value operating cost savings. Again, that 10 value turns out to be 4.66 percent. That's real. 11 And that's what we're using in this analysis. 12 MR. THARP: Just a quick question. In 13 the -- it seems that the discount rates change from 14 NOPR to NOPR. In the commercial furnace, the 15 discount rate of 8.9 percent was used. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really. 17 MR. THARP: Yeah. In the commercial AC 18 heat pump, 6.2 percent was used. So I'm curious as 19 to why. At peak California, 8 and a half percent was 20 used. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: These are discount rates 22 you're talking about.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 171 1 MR. THARP: Yes. Actually Goodman put 2 this into our comments for the commercial furnace 3 because we're going back and comparing some things, 4 we saw there was a sizable difference between 5 Sunday's discontinue rates. I understand why there 6 would be differences for residential tape products 7 and commercial type products. So it seems that in 8 most of the commercial products, it's closer to eight 9 and a half, nine percent. And the commercial was 10 6.2. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: All I can say is I'll 12 have to get back to you on that and look into that 13 and see what's going on there. I -- I can't believe 14 that's actually the discount rate that was used but 15 let me look into that. I'll look at Ptacks, I'll 16 look at commercial services and report back next 17 week, if not earlier BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 18 This is, again, what I call the base case 19 efficiency distribution or energy efficiency in the 20 base characters that is the ISCAxxx without 21 standards. I think we can all go straight to the 22 table because we're more or less using the same

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 172 1 distributions that we had, that we used in the NOPR. 2 With this twist that now that we're analyzing 3 constant air volume buildings and variable air volume 4 buildings, we're assuming that no product or no 5 mocker chair of the baseline level goes into BABA 6 buildings. Then all we do is we just move up that 7 distribution we have from the NOPR up one efficiency 8 level. So it starts with efficiency level one, as 9 opposed to the baseline level in constant air value 10 buildings. 11 We're basically on any market share at the 12 dataxxx we get from AHRI to update this, but for the 13 numbers you're seeing today, which will be in the 14 next slide, the "l" is what we have used in terms 15 after distribution of a product by efficiency level. 16 Q. I'm just repeating what we used for 30 ton 17 but we don't have any analysis for 30ton yet. 18 Hopefully next week. 19 Q. So I was thinking here maybe we just -- 20 again, I'm just showing you the numbers we used -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: To update what we do here

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 173 1 going into the future. BEGIN NOTE END NOTE. 2 And these are the results. So on the left 3 are the results for -- well, what happened? 4 Obviously I don't know, those numbers here first year 5 operating cost and simple payback period, I remember 6 populating them. I don't know what happened so I 7 apologize, I sincerely apologize for that. Anyway, 8 at least we can compare the total and installed 9 costs, lifetime operating costs and the life-cycle 10 costs. Then on the bottom table shows you the 11 average LCC savings by efficiency level, as well as 12 the percent of consumers they're incurring a net 13 cost. We can start with the total installed cost. 14 You can see that it has gone up at the baseline level 15 and generally speaking for all efficiency levels. 16 Maybe at a break, I can pull -- I can find the slide 17 that shows the first year operating. That's 18 really -- the lifetime operating costs and the life 19 cycle costs haven't gone up because of what you've 20 seen prior in the energy use analysis, right. I 21 mean, we -- the energy use for the product has gone 22 up appreciably per unit due to the changes that have

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 174 1 been made to the energies analysis to account for 2 higher external static pressures mas well as the 3 additional load created by the fan that the 4 compressor has to now serve as a result of those hire 5 statics. So that's the basic reason why the lifetime 6 operating cost has increased, like see it here, since 7 the NOPR. I can tell you the simple payback periods 8 have gone up. And if you you're going down to the 9 life cycle cost savings here, meaning all life cycle 10 cost savings are generally lower than what we saw in 11 the NOPR. You can see the percent of consumers where 12 we had, for three of the efficiency that consumers 13 being negatively impacted, if we're having a 14 relatively significant factor being hurt by the 15 standard left. BEGIN NOTE. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So that percent of 17 consumers with net cost, that's not cost increase? 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, that's cost 19 increase. So obviously there's a track of consumers 20 here not impacted all all and the consumers that are 21 actually benefiting. This is just focusing on those 22 that they're incurring a cost.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 175 1 These -- why are they -- where are they at 2 -- here, I have all columns calculated, the simple 3 payback period for the NOPR. Here, it's a little bit 4 of a different story. We still have the lifetime 5 operating costs going up significantly and the life 6 cycle costs going up significantly for the same 7 reasons I told you for the seven and a half tons. 8 BEGIN NOTE total installed costs also goes up a bit. 9 And the resultant simple payback period have 10 actually -- at least for the first five efficiency 11 levels have gone down relative to the NOPR. 12 When you look at things for the life cycle 13 cost savings, again, there's a little bumping up and 14 down here going from one efficiency left to the next 15 "M", but the one thing that has changed significantly 16 is this percent of consumers where you hardly had any 17 with the net cost with the NOPR, now you have a 18 significant amount experiencing costs under this 19 revised analysis. BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 20 We probably have to clue on these numbers 21 a bit. This is just the outcome of everything you've 22 seen prior, all the changes to the engineering,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 176 1 changes to the energy use, changes to the other 2 inputs that go into the life cycle cost. This is the 3 result of all those changes. I don't know if this is 4 a good time to break. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask the group here. 6 What do we need to do to clarify or agree upon today, 7 in order to have a clear path going forward? And is 8 that something that you all want to work on as home 9 work during a working lunch so that we can come back 10 and try to clarify as much as we can before we break 11 today? 12 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. It sounds 13 like there's a couple things that we're getting 14 information on, like -- 15 MR. McCABE: Manufacture shipment data. 16 MR. STARR: Well, that first and maybe the 17 riff first. There are some issues like that that 18 probably require some more thinking about or -- 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what I would suggest 20 maybe, let's take lunch. Let me sit down with my 21 team and I think maybe Detlef goes through what he 22 thinks are his outstanding engineering needs and

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 177 1 issues and I think we comment on that and then Greg, 2 Alison, Katie do the same. And then I have circled 3 the wagons. 4 Does that sound fair? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: That sounds fair. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I guess I'm 7 feeling a little bit that we have a fair amount of 8 uncertainty being moderated by the data that is 9 coming in. I think that I'd rather hold off until we 10 have those real quotes. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, I just want to 12 agree upon what we think is our work to do. 13 MR. SACHS: Yes, that -- 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: And finish it up, right. 15 You're going to see new numbers again next time. 16 Clearly there will be comments on it, right? I don't 17 think anyone expects it to be poof without -- but I 18 don't want to leave a rock unturned at this and then 19 have that rock be presented next time. That's what 20 I'm trying to avoid. We take two steps forward and 21 then maybe we can take a step back. I want to avoid 22 the "back" if we can. Some things are going to pop

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 178 1 up am I do expect that. But, you know, we are 2 sitting here in May. We've got a month, roughly, 3 so -- 4 MR. SACHS: I think I'd also want to say 5 that -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is the part where he 7 strokes the government and his team? Or is he going 8 on a rant? 9 MR. SACHS: I was going to particularly 10 thank or colleagues in industry for all the data they 11 promised. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Promised. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Until you see such data -- 14 let's take a lunch and all get -- reconvene. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: So how much time do you want 16 for lunch? 17 MR. BANTLE: What about ten to noon? 18 MR. THARP: At least 30 minutes, no more 19 than 45. 20 MR. BANTLE: Okay, 12:35 is your 45 21 minutes. 12:30. 22 (A break was taken.)

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 179 1 MR. BANTLE: Thank you, everyone, for 2 getting back. So this afternoon, before we do finish 3 up, I this the first thing we want to do, we've had 4 DOE go through all their information. I'm just going 5 to figure out, what assumptions do we need to make 6 and where do we need to go from here? So I turn it 7 over I think first to you all. What information do 8 you still need? Where are the glaring openings that 9 you think you needs information? Then we can discuss 10 who can provide those best. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So to rephrase a little 12 bit, not just the data, what analysis we'll be doing. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef 14 Westphalen. 15 So on the furnaces, might as well start 16 with that. Speaking for Adam, he'll be looking at 17 addressing some of the comments regarding you know, 18 how to increase heat exchanger size. Looking at 19 adding a tube rather than going for longer tubes. 20 Otherwise consider potential impacts regarding size, 21 there's not enough room. And then he'll be looking 22 at alternate materials at 82 percent. And looking to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 180 1 revise the analyses. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: If I get that stuff, can I 3 send it to you just because I don't have his e-mail? 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, if you send it to 5 me, I'll forward it. 6 MR. HUNT: Excuse me, are the commercial 7 furnaces impacted by the possible change in the 8 furnace testing, the RES furnaces, or do you know? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry. 10 MR. HUNT: Are commercial furnaces 11 affected by the possible change of test in 12 residential furnaces? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Completely different 14 rulemaking and test procedures. 15 MR. HUNT: Good. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: You're talking about thermal 17 efficiency here? 18 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Are you done with CWAFs 20 on your side? 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Do you want to address 22 CWAFs?

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 181 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: I have a note here to do 2 82 percent AQE, and I guess the question is what 3 fraction of the AQE amPoussaint population to apply 4 them to. And I guess I -- I guess I'm just looking 5 for some input about -- about that. I mean, who -- 6 who brought -- was it -- was it Bob, you, who brought 7 the information about -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: At what temperature. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- you have to be 12 concerned about? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. So maybe we can 14 get together and come up with some input for you. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Because my thinking is 16 there's probably a lot of furnace installations with, 17 you know, when you get -- at some point during the 18 winter, you'll be below 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I 19 guess just how often is it below there so that it has 20 to become a concern, right? So -- so maybe you just 21 have to always apply it, for example, electrical heat 22 tape or something like that or something like, that

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 182 1 regardless. I don't know. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So that's a whole 3 different issue. That's related to the condensate 4 drain. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Drain, right. 6 MR. STARR: It's kind of related to the 7 climates and where you sell the equipment, more or 8 less. In other words, colder climates, more need for 9 condensate rules. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Any time you have a 12 designing temp below 32 degrees, it freezes and it's 13 out on a roof, so you're gonna have to heat tape it, 14 and that goes down to a good portion of the south, 15 even. 16 MR. STARR: Yeah. I was talking more 17 about the actual condensate pumps because you only 18 need to the condensate pumps, right, light when it's 19 super chilly, I think like minus 7 or 7. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: You're also, think about a 21 roof and how far you might have to go with that 22 condensate. So you might not have enough distance to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 183 1 be able to get the right pitch so you might still 2 have to be pumping it somewhere because it's so long 3 on a roof. 4 MR. STARR: But your 82 shouldn't be 5 producing condensate all the time, right? That's 6 when it as misbehaving when it's producing 7 condensate. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's going happen at 9 lower outdoor temperatures, right? Or if you have 10 cold spots in there. I mean it's still -- it could 11 be at a higher temperature where you have cold spots 12 inside. 13 MR. STARR: But I mean you wouldn't -- I 14 was thinking you would mainly be concerned about 15 where you have really cold climates and that 16 potential have a regular basis for having condensate. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Like the northern part of the 18 U.S., right? 19 MR. STARR: Right. But in other words, 20 probably like -- well, Georgia even though it does 21 get less than 32 there occasionally, you probably 22 wouldn't need a condensate drain for that because you

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 184 1 wouldn't necessarily be condensing in your coil to 2 necessarily facilitate the need for a condensate 3 pump. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Did you say Georgia? 5 MR. STARR: Oh, yeah. 6 MR. DOPPEL: In Georgia, we get down in 7 the 20's all the time. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm saying, the 9 20's come down really low in the United States. 10 MR. STARR: But the condensate, he was 11 talking about. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Condensate happens. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Depends on the efficiency 14 level. In '82, I think it was at -- I have the 15 numbers here. We had single digits in the teens. 16 MR. STARR: What I was getting at if you 17 have low temperatures you probably won't need 18 condensate. You won't need condensate for that every 19 three years it happens. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Depends. Depends on what 21 roof it is on. If they don't wants it to ever get 22 out onto the roof, they're still going to have a

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 185 1 condensate. And those roofs I mean are light, they 2 don't want anything eaten away at them. We don't put 3 screws in panels anymore, so screws don't get on roof 4 and puncture them and have leaks. 5 MR. SACHS: This is so concerning they 6 don't let birds fly over. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: But they're so light weight 8 that a bird would probably go through it. I've 9 walked on them. They're not fun. 10 MR. STARR: I guess I would say there's 11 probably somewhere between using zero degrees and 32, 12 and I don't economy where it is, but a reasonable 13 amount where you're going to have condensate. A code 14 official is not going to make you put a trap, or a 15 condensate with a heat tape for something that 16 happens once every three or four years. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: We're not worried about a 18 code official. I'm worried about the reliability of 19 that heat exchanger and the correct and proper 20 installation. They're not monitoring corrective 21 property installations, codes aren't doing that. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Louis, the condensate

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 186 1 END NOTE. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Or OIM is going to say you 3 have to do this. 4 MR. WHITWELL: The condensate issue is a 5 separate issue than the tubes. If you have a 6 corrosive condensate inside the tubes, they are going 7 to wear out and fail earlier than they would if 8 it's -- if there's no condensate being found inside 9 there. It's a reliability issue as much as anything. 10 BEGIN NOTE. 11 MR. STARR: Isn't that the condensate 12 we're talking about, the condensate that's inside 13 potentially 82 percent? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Once it's inside the tube, 15 it is going to drain off. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It drains out the drum, in 17 our case. 18 MR. STARR: Where you dump the AC 19 condensate, typically. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, it's another whole 21 pipe. 22 MR. STARR: You're piping it to where

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 187 1 separately? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 3 MR. STARR: Why? Is it because they're 4 not close enough to pipe together, is that what 5 you're saying? 6 MR. WHITWELL: It's because the condensate 7 is acidic. 8 MR. STARR: If it only happens once in a 9 while -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It was acidic in '80 and 11 '81, just not nearly as much. 12 MR. STARR: Typically how much condensate 13 are you producing on a regular basis? Is it -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I have never measured. I 15 have no idea. Never measured. 16 MR. BANTLE: If I can jump in, I think, 17 Greg, you were originally looking for what fraction 18 of the products this would apply for, correct? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 20 MR. BANTLE: And is it safe just for my 21 notes, Jill and Bob, you're going look into that and 22 provide that information?

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 188 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 2 MR. BANTLE: Okay, thank you. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: And others. 4 MR. WHITWELL: It is going to be an 5 estimate, right? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Based on comply math. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: The next item is just 9 updating the efficiency distribution in the base case 10 to the latest HR directory instead of the one that 11 was used for the proposed rule. 12 So we'll go ahead and do that. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Say again? 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was -- 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 50-50 versus the 16 70-20. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. 18 MR. HUNT: And no 828's. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was updating this. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, the ten slides up. 21 It is going to be more like 50491, I think. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the other one is,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 189 1 just to make sure that this is consistent with 2 whatever we do with the AC. Don't have a disconnect 3 between what we're forecasting for furnace and AC. 4 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey. 5 I assume those data are in tabular form in 6 NOPR or something? I'm just trying to dismiss the 7 concerns about oil-fired ones and it looks to me it's 8 maximum 25,000 a year. I haven't bothered to check 9 the NOPR. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So you'd just like to see 11 that information in a tabular form. 12 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Want to make sure I can 13 convince my colleagues that, A, there are no oil 14 furnace people here, and, B, there's no energy to be 15 worried about. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 17 MR. SACHS: I don't think anyone here 18 manufactures oil furnaces. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Just right here. 20 XxxMR. WINNINGHAM: Lennox does. 21 MR. SACHS: Commercial oil furnaces, you 22 manufacture?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 190 1 MR. WINNINGHAM: (Nods head.) 2 MR. SACHS: So we are raising. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Any other furnace issues? 4 Okay. So that backs up. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Air conditioners, we will 6 be working on the 30-ton analysis. And on the energy 7 side of that, we'll be interacting with some of the 8 manufacturers to get a better understanding of what's 9 happening with compressor staging and air flow 10 staging, the units rated with VAV operation. We will 11 be investigating the unit size trends more, 12 specifically looking at all the key capacities within 13 the ranges for these classes, see at what efficiency 14 levels the size changes would require conversion 15 curb. 16 MR. STARR: You're talking about the 17 casing size, is that what you're referring to? 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, the footprint. 19 MR. SACHS: This is still 30 ton? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: With the length. Height 21 won't matter. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: This will be all the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 191 1 classes. We showed data for 7.5, 15 and 30 and one 2 of the comments was okay well, maybe an 8.5 will jump 3 sizes at a different level. 4 MR. SACHS: You know this -- this is 5 Harvey. I lost my train of thought. We will come 6 back to it. 7 MR. STARR: So essentially you will figure 8 out the distribution of when you need to provide a 9 drip conversion or -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Conversion. 11 MR. STARR: -- for the classes. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: The intent was to form 13 the discussions. You might remember yesterday I was 14 thinking well, maybe we could just dispense with all 15 that work and just call it EL3. But I don't know, I 16 think the consensus was let's try to get more 17 information before we make that decision. 18 MR. SACHS: Now I remember. This is 19 Harvey again. One of the areas that came up 20 yesterday, and I don't think I fully understand yet, 21 was you distinguish between what you call small 22 cabinet large capacities and large cabinet in one of

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 192 1 your graphs. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: This was in one of the 3 cost graphs, yes for a 30-ton unit. 4 MR. SACHS: And Jill said, gee, this 5 corresponds to what we consider commercial or light 6 commercial versus industrial, I think. Some of us 7 might like to have a better understanding of the 8 applications of the two categories within that. 9 Could be a couple lines in there. I'm not sure if 10 everyone would have a small cabinet or large cabinet. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: I imagine others might be 12 in a better position. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: So the two product lines, 14 the two product lines above 20 tons, you're right, 15 one is what we call more commercial and, you know, 16 just commercial. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Or applied. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. One is very 19 industrial is in the industrial line is much more 20 applied in nature, has back to a certain rule that we 21 did two years ago the one billion trillion whatever 22 combination and we'll do specials on top of that.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 193 1 BEGIN NOTE BEGIN NOTE. 2 So the commercial one is lighter grade 3 sheet metal, it's less industrial, less durable and 4 it's meant for and it only has static performance up 5 to about four inches of static total. So it's meant 6 more for warehousing, you know, little bit more of a 7 light roof construction, maybe -- maybe some offices, 8 but doesn't push a lot of air, by the time you put 9 VAV, it does have VAV options, but by the time you 10 push any air, you're not going very far with it. 11 It's like warehousing and some of the big-box 12 retailers. 13 And then the line that is industrial goes 14 up to now 8 inches in total static. The design 15 options, border options take it even more than that. 16 The collection of the cabinet is mild. We do cabinet 17 things that are now making it not do anything, sealed 18 tight, formed panels that are, you know, insulation 19 in-between them, doors are like, you know, walking 20 into a refrigerator, you know, heavy grade everything 21 on it. It's just will last a long time, heavy. 22 Walk-in cubicles that somebody can sleep in, leave

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 194 1 their tools in. 2 MR. SACHS: Running water, too. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's been done. 4 MR. SACHS: So does the market partition 5 strongly as 50-50 light versus industrial? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, I don't know, 7 I don't remember. I don't think we're partitioning 8 these right now in the numbers that we're doing but, 9 you know, 20 tons, it's gonna be much more 70 percent 10 is in that commercial. As you approach that 60 tons, 11 it's more like 30 percent is in that commercial, much 12 more industrial. And then those lines, those 13 industrial lines go up to 200 and something tons. 14 Q. Typically is the premium for that 15 industrial quality still at 30 percent or 100 16 percent? You know, I'm just trying to get my 17 sense -- 18 **A. Hundred. More in the hundred.** 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah it's hard to say 20 because you have different options on the applied 21 type product. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And that can really

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 195 1 get pricey. 2 MR. SACHS: I'm just trying to get a sense 3 of the size and shape of the piece. I'm not looking 4 for cabinet. Thank you, that's very helpful. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: You're up to 25,000 tons and 6 they're very, very heavy. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, can you look at -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Done in two and three 9 pieces. 10 MR. WHITWELL: You've got unibody 11 construction let's say versus something that has 12 I-beams and panels. That's kind of -- that's a big, 13 you know, at a high level, that's kind of what they 14 look like. 15 MR. SACHS: I've seen some of the big ones 16 but wasn't sensitive to the distinction. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: A lot less players when the 18 markets get up there, a lot less of us do it. 19 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 20 MR. STARR: It seems like, though, most of 21 our analysis is around commercial building stock, the 22 CBECS data, all the data is around that. It seems

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 196 1 like those units should be reflected when we're doing 2 the analysis, when we're doing the rest of the 3 analysis. Those units you're talking about are 4 probably factored to one and one and a half times the 5 cost. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So I didn't also say what 7 those industrial ones go on. They typically go on 8 large office buildings. They do have the ability to 9 do ductwork for six stories and push air for six 10 stories, VAV. They go on universities, large 11 industrials, you know, if you go across the southeast 12 and you look at any manufacturing plant, there's a 13 heck of a lot of them out there, manufacturing plants 14 in the southeast. 15 MR. STARR: You telepack that unit or not? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Telepack. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: So from the perspective 18 of the cost analysis, I think what I heard yesterday 19 was it would be appropriate to look at the 20 incremental cost within each package. 21 MR. STARR: The other thing is 22 understanding, you know, most of the sales I think

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 197 1 are going to be 20-ton units on large retail and so 2 you know, Dick was making his point. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Except for Macy's, JP 4 Penney's, Nordstrom's, those are all using the 5 telePACS. 6 MR. STARR: Those are 30 tons? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Some are 60 tons. 8 Nordstrom's is usually two 60 tons. Macy's is two 9 40's. But when you're talking about a big-box 10 retailer like a Wal-Mart, a Home Depot and those, 11 yes, they're 20 and 25 tons. 12 MR. STARR: I guess part of the thing, is 13 understanding in that category, the category in 14 general seems when you get about 20 tons, it's less 15 of a 10 percent of that. So further subdividing I 16 guess if it's worthwhile, I guess. But it seems if 17 you're lower -- it's like most of the equipment sold 18 is three to five tons, right? That's the biggest 19 selling category of anything. And then as you get 20 larger, it gets less of that. And on an energy 21 basis, they do do a lot because they're bigger, so -- 22 but from a shipment sale side, it seems like it's

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 198 1 mainly smaller, the more there are of them. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: So does that entail a 3 recommendation or -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: So you want what the jump is 5 between those two product lines as just at 30 tons 6 or -- 7 MR. STARR: In relative sales. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: I mean I guess I'm kind 9 of taken aback because I wasn't really asking 10 anything about the size of those. I think Louis 11 brought it up. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought you said you were 13 looking at what you have to take into consideration 14 for those two product lines. 15 MR. WHITWELL: He's going to look at it 16 like on this chart, you were going to look at it the 17 20, 30, 40-ton. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if for one of those 19 capacities you have to go into the industrial size 20 box in order to get an efficiency level, then, you 21 know, then we have to consider what it takes to, you 22 know, manufacture a unit in that size.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 199 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Now, you wouldn't 3 necessarily have to manufacture that unit to have 4 absolutely no deflections like you might manufacture 5 your big box, but certainly would you have to 6 consider the larger size. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So you don't need 8 anything from us. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not on that. If we look 10 through the data and have questions, then maybe we'll 11 get there. 12 MR. WHITWELL: And you request can look 13 at, look at our data in the HR record and you'll see 14 the smaller stuff runs out before you get to the 30 15 ton at higher efficiency levels. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Because that's the 17 intent. I mean, we were going to look at it not on a 18 box side dimension, but on, you know, per capacity. 19 You know, where does it jump. 20 MR. STARR: I think he was trying to 21 figure out when the casing sizes, when you have a 22 10-ton, can you run seven and a half inside your ten

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 200 1 ton case. So if you went up to an EL3, you could 2 still fit that in the same casing. So I was trying 3 to figure out what, how much percentage in the given 4 size categories would need conversion curbs is what 5 he was trying to get at with his line of questioning, 6 and it sort of morphed into the distribution of the 7 30 tons of how much is this -- I mean, I don't know, 8 I didn't -- I wasn't -- I was talking about the 9 casing sizes, figuring out the occurrence of 10 conversion curbs or not is what I was thinking. 11 The other thing where you -- if you were 12 to try to figure it out -- I don't think you can 13 because you don't know what the distribution of air 14 handlers in the 30 ton class is, is it all 20 tons? 15 Is it all 6 tons? What's the distribution? Unless 16 someone provided you with that information, there's 17 no way you can figure it out. So unless someone does 18 that, I don't see how you can do it again. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: We're doing a 30 ton 20 analysis to represent the full range and, you know, 21 admittedly we've just discussed that there are some 22 issues associated with that. But I think at this

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 201 1 point, it would be kind of a stretch to say we're 2 gonna be doing a 20 and a 40. 3 MR. STARR: I was talking about before we 4 had this conversation. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I hi the reason why we were 6 talking about it is, it is not a linear expansion, it 7 goes exponential when you start to go into those 8 different cabinet breaks in those larger units. The 9 conversion curb is much bigger. It's not a thousand 10 dollars anymore, it's several thousand dollars. Roof 11 structure usually is involved, can't leaving is 12 involved. It's substantial. Tens of thousands of 13 dollars. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's the segue into the 15 next item here. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Just to clarify when I said 17 20, 30, 40, I was talking about looking at box sizes 18 at those capacity size, not doing cost analysis. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, right, right. 21 MR. STARR: Once you get the size of the 22 category back, that will help figure it out, too,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 202 1 right? In other words if that class of unit is ten 2 percent of sales maybe we can do something with it 3 for less than 40 analysis you're saying. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're saying large 5 industrial size is something -- 6 MR. STARR: No, just the three categories 7 into they are collecting information on which would 8 be 30 tons, see how many sales are at the 30-ton 9 units or that class of 30 ton. Based upon that 10 number, then you can -- if it's one percent, I don't 11 think you need to do sowing. If it starts to get to 12 get to 10, 20, then you probably need to modify the 13 analysis. 14 MR. WHITWELL: The numbers are smaller, 15 they're still big units, a lot of energy. 16 MR. SACHS: Big units go on big buildings, 17 which consider a higher cooling/heating ratio, 18 typically more hours per year. 19 MR. STARR: I don't know. They want to go 20 back and collect more data, that would be one way to 21 resolve the issue. 22 MR. SACHS: We've got four weeks.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 203 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, moving on. The 2 segue into the conversion discussion, and I guess 3 we'll be having some discussion with the vendors that 4 you're working with and hoping to gather information 5 on performance aspects, pressure drops associated 6 with, you know, run a conversion curb and then also 7 for the downstream analysis, some information on 8 costs involved and, you know, potentially some input 9 on if there are installation implications like roof 10 structure, also try to get some of that input as 11 well. 12 MR. STARR: Wasn't there also going to 13 be -- I thought smack California was going to provide 14 some sort of pressure drop for the curve is that 15 mark? 16 MR. TERZIGNI: Mark Terzigni, SMACNA. 17 I have that, among a whole list of other 18 questions that have come up, particularly related to 19 cost and air flow performance. I will reach out to 20 try to differentiate along the lines that you guys 21 have already separated your categories into all about 22 your installation costs and those assumptions,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 204 1 whatnot. I have a whole two pages of notes here so 2 far on things I'll try at least confirm or maybe 3 unfortunately provide a whole other set of opinions 4 on something related to it. That is included. 5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just note 6 for my colleagues at ASHRAE that the term roofing 7 structure is shorthand for a whole host of issues 8 that relate to seismic noise, a whole bunch of other 9 things that I think are second order. I know we 10 don't have time to get into. But when it comes to 11 the people doing the specifications, these are thanks 12 will come into play. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: You can't put a unit in 14 California that has the ASHRAE on a conversion curb. 15 There is no way you would have that thing and have it 16 certified. 17 MR. SACHS: Then there's Dade County. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, Dade County is 19 different, in the sense it's a projectile thing. But 20 you can't shape for the curb, you'll be ripping a 21 roof up. No. 22 MR. STARR: There was two primary things I

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 205 1 see mark providing. So it was pressure drop for 7 2 five -- 7, 15 and 30 units along with another thing. 3 The other thing is the typical static pressure for 4 the same size units, that was the deliverable I was 5 thinking about. 6 MR. TERZIGNI: The first two items on the 7 list. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: So I was gonna ask also 9 on behalf of my colleagues at LBNL whether or not, 10 when you collect that data, if it happens to be this 11 week, whether you could get that back Sooner than 12 next week. 13 MR. TERZIGNI: Can we have some time to 14 see what the results are? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. That would be very 16 helpful. 17 MR. TERZIGNI: I have no reason to hang 18 onto it, so as soon as I get it, I'll share it. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thank you. 20 MR. STARR: It would be nice to check out 21 the 90.1 models to see what they're using in the 22 external static pressure. They have 16 prototypes

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 206 1 and parallel some of the xxxstaff that we have in our 2 analysis. So it's another source, that's engineering 3 society. BEGIN NOTE name BEGIN NOTE. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: So as far as the 5 engineering for the commercial air conditioners, I 6 think that covers it. Last night, I sent out the 7 information on the correlations for transferring 8 pressure drops. I don't know if there are any other 9 questions on that. 10 MR. WHITWELL: It was a little surprising 11 to see you're using R 22 data for the evaporator 12 correlations. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I think that's 14 what's in the software. When they update, 15 certainly -- I have to, you know, and I'm not -- I 16 don't know the details of this, but I have to believe 17 that there was some assessment made as to whether it 18 was worth updating software at, you know, at the time 19 to, you know, to do transferring pressure drops don't 20 follow those same correlations, certainly I mean that 21 will be consideration telling the crew that it's time 22 to update.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 207 1 MR. MISLAK: I think there are 410 2 correlations in there the last time I used the 3 designer. I know there are for micro channel for 4 sevenxxx. I design micro channel for modxxx, so I 5 know they're in there. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. 7 MR. MISLAK: You may want to check it. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: All right. For right or 9 round tube. 10 MR. MISLAK: That, for sure. So fitting 11 two-piece. I'm not sure for the 410A, but I wouldn't 12 see any reason why they wouldn't. If they're in 13 there for micro channel, they have to be in there for 14 fitted tube, but I'll double check. 15 MR. WHITWELL: No one is using the R 44, 16 so I would be surprised if there weren't. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: I can ask about that. 18 MR. MISLAK: I can ask, too. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: I would imagine if that 20 were available, they would have used it. 21 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: This might be -- that's

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 208 1 all I had on the engineering on the commercial AC 2 side. I just want to put on the table that 3 potentially we have come back to the rule discussion 4 but maybe we can wait until Greg talks about his 5 additional work and needs work on commercial AC. 6 BEGIN NOTE dual duct BEGIN NOTE. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for dual duck, why 8 don't we put that on the table for a second. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'll start up with the 10 building BEGIN NOTE name analysis. We are intending 11 to do the sensitivity analysis on the lowneyxxx. I 12 would like to call those clustering of units to serve 13 load rather than having every single unit the same 14 way. That's particularly important for low loads on 15 the building. We have that on our to do list. I 16 just added to collect the 90.1 buildings to see what 17 they were using for external static pressure. Again, 18 we're using .75 and 1.25, which is the water column. 19 We'll see what 90.1 offers up. And then I'm going 20 back to yesterday's conversation regarding 21 economizers. We're still in the process of checking 22 the loads and which temperature bins they are in, to

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 209 1 see whether or not that's a big contribution to low, 2 you know, the cooling loads as to whether or not it 3 makes a difference to even go chasing after trying to 4 do something to address economizer use. So we have 5 that on our list to do. And that's all I have on 6 sort of the energy/building side, unless someone else 7 has something, I would go straight into the LCC. 8 MR. STARR: So the only thing I would like 9 is the question about whether you need to replace 10 those diffusers for the -- 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Since -- I have that on 12 the list. So on the -- on the installation cost, 13 again, we're skimming with weight and you know, 14 there's a lot of discussion about whether that's a 15 reasonable proxy. Lewis, you said you might be 16 looking into something and -- 17 MR. STARR: I'll take a look. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Charlie is, too. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's incumbent upon us to 20 make a few calls, as well. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Charlie said he 22 would look into it, too. Because he represents all

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 210 1 the contracts, so -- 2 MR. STARR: Usual using RS means and how 3 you used it is probably the most important factor. 4 In other words, RS Means is probably the -- I'd say 5 the source to use, right. So in my mind is how 6 much -- how did you use this to get the numbers. And 7 so you could crosscheck it with those costs. So 8 however -- just maybe a little better explanation of 9 how that S and then Charlie, the contractor guy, 10 should have a pretty, I would think, a pretty good 11 number, too. 12 MR. TERZIGNI: I'm Mark, SMACNA. 13 A quick step back. I except over toed the 14 a section out of our duct design manual that talks a 15 lot about system effect. He is allowed to distribute 16 that to you guys. So it will give you some 17 background. There's tables in there. You can look 18 at various configurations. Actually a lot of this is 19 taken from AMTAxxx standard 210 where you can see it 20 converts everything to inches water gate as far as 21 certain configurations. So between now and then, you 22 can also kind of look at that, come up with your own

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 211 1 maybe mental average or something and I'll do my best 2 to confirm through contractor tab measurements. 3 BEGIN NOTE check gate BEGIN NOTE my one concern is on 4 some of the units, I don't know how often in those 5 types of buildings. Tab work is on the smaller size. 6 I don't know how often that is really done, but I'll 7 ask the question and see if I can get some answers. 8 You can use that in time as a guesstimate. Their 9 calculations are based on real information. I any 10 the problem you're gonna see, will is a lot of 11 variability. Is there an elbow on the unit, right 12 off the unit? Is there 50 percent of ideal duct 13 length and an elbow and what direction the elbow is, 14 inlet and outlet conditions. There's a whole range 15 of scenarios to look at. But you can still see the 16 range and how to mentally average. And I think 17 you'll -- my gut feel is you'll see that it's a 18 little higher than what was being discussed yesterday 19 as far as what was on the chart. But you can use 20 your on expertise to get an idea and I'll try to firm 21 that up for you some time between now. 22 MR. STARR: I suspect the tab guys will

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 212 1 generally have a rule on that, too. It's more of 2 where the numbers coalesce. Bob was talking about -- 3 Robert was talking about .35. Tab I'm sure will have 4 a number. I think they'll start to converge is what 5 I suspect. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So the next item I 7 had was the converse curb, and I heard to try to look 8 into varying with it tonnage and to use some of the 9 contacts that D list has to get after that. 10 MR. STARR: Is that the cost of it? 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: The cost of the curb. 12 Right now, we're just using a thousand dollars, and I 13 heard that it likely varies with the capacity of the 14 equipment. BEGIN NOTE company name END NOTE. 15 With regards to the diffuser replacement, 16 Lewis, you started out saying, you know, being a 17 concern. I have a note here saying maybe you're okay 18 now but where do you sit on that? 19 **A. Yeah, no, I would -- I would rather** 20 **have -- take a look at that and see if that's the** 21 **typical practice if they go in, switch it out. In** 22 **other words, if they put in a VAV system and drop it**

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 213 1 **down, do they have to go and change the diffusers,** 2 **too. So I know I guess Steve Taylor has provided** 3 **something back there for California but California is** 4 **kind of a special place.** 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, he also, Deb has the 6 same information he had at ASHRAE 90.1. So it was 7 not -- he started it in California and that's -- 8 MR. STARR: Where he finishes. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. That's when he took 10 it to ash bring and that's where ash bring put the 11 singles on. 12 MR. STARR: Is that something to work on 13 right now? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: It's already in there, 2013. 15 MR. STARR: So it's requiring that if you 16 switch it up, you're going to have to switch out the 17 diffusers? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Not requiring to switch out 19 the diffusers, requiring the two stage or the VAV at 20 certain points. And so because of that, it was all 21 in his economic justification and he talked about 22 whether this is economically justified and he talked

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 214 1 about how the insulation of the system and the 2 changeout of the system would happen. 3 MR. STARR: That's my question. It's not 4 that you don't have to have a three-stage but 5 actually the design solution what stage is produced 6 and perhaps for California it is but I don't know 7 necessarily that is a design switch across the board. 8 MR. WHITWELL: You're talking about nor 9 the diffusers. 10 MR. STARR: Right. If you change down the 11 40 percent, do you need to change out all the 12 diffusers? BEGIN NOTE bra ink a typical VAV system, 13 those turn down to 30 percent. 14 MR. WHITWELL: If you don't you won't have 15 a comfort. 16 MR. STARR: No more than the building 17 we're sitting in right now, right? I mean the VAV 18 box is turned down to 30 percent. If this room was 19 unoccupied, go down to 30 percent, as well. 20 MR. WHITWELL: The dishes is the other 21 systems, the VAV, we have the higher velocity. It 22 mixes the air in a space.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 215 1 MR. STARR: Right. But you know if you 2 think about that, so when it's raining at low stage, 3 that's potentially one thing. But a lot of times 4 that's just ventilation air, too, right? You're not 5 heating or cooling. So really it's not a problem so 6 much of the air mixing. It's more, to me, you know 7 what, Steve has in this thing is probably maybe the 8 best way to do it, but I don't think that's the most 9 common solution for how it's actually designed for. 10 MR. SACHS: I want to drop in, this is 11 Harvey, and see if I can translate this. It seems to 12 me that the discussion here is between the design of 13 a system that essentially meets 90.1, which we would 14 call very good practice, versus Louis asking about 15 the standard of care or what the routine practice is 16 to minimize cost. And that's almost a policy design, 17 what our design role is here, isn't it? 18 MR. STARR: 90.1 doesn't require to have 19 the design of replacing diffusers. They are just 20 requiring three stage. Now the solution would 21 provide three-stage capacity do you need to switch 22 out the diffusers. BEGIN NOTE that is not in 90.1.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 216 1 MR. SACHS: I understand it's not in but 2 it's sort of a logical consequence when you're trying 3 to design for 90.1, 62.1 and 55. 4 MR. STARR: I would -- I would say it's 5 not because every VAV system turns down to 30 6 percent. How do they hand that will now? You go 7 into a conference room with diffusers, it's designed 8 to turn down to 30 percent which is ten percent less 9 than 40 percent. How is it all of a sudden when now 10 because it's a constant air volume system it has that 11 ability to turn down, it's okay if it's a VAV system 12 but it's not okay? I mean it's a practical design 13 that's already done. That's why I'm having a hard 14 time understanding why all of a surged, you have a 15 typical VAV system that turns down to 30 percent all 16 the time with the air flow and yet we're turning down 17 to 40 percent and all of a sudden we have to change 18 out the diffusers. 19 MR. WHITWELL: So I guess I'm trying to 20 understand, too, so we've got constant air volume 21 units. Some are being -- you're looking at replacing 22 them with stage air volume units or with VAV units,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 217 1 correct? 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So let me 3 specifically -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: So the same air volume, you 5 don't have to replace the diffusers. If you're going 6 to VAV -- 7 MR. STARR: It's actually down to 40 8 percent. The three stages, 166100 and 40. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: We have constant air 10 volume buildings and in the constant we're putting 11 staged air volume equipment in it where the air 12 volume doesn't go below 60 percent. At that point 13 we're saying the diffusers are fine. Once it goes 14 below 60 first that's where we're saying you have to 15 do something. And that happens at EL4 and 5 for 15 16 tons. So that -- I just want to clarify what we're 17 doing. And I hear what you're saying, Louis, is that 18 going to be a typical practice, swapping out all the 19 diffusers or are they going to use a different 20 solution. 21 MR. STARR: Right. And I'm saying there 22 are VAV buildings it will turn down to 30 percent

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 218 1 ever its flow routinely. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: This wasn't designed for 3 positive volume and then you put a VAV on it. You're 4 talking about a switching after system, a system that 5 was designed for constant volume and now you're going 6 to say you're at EL 13 or 14 and we're saying there 7 is only a system available for VAV for that. Now the 8 VAV has to replace the SAC system and you have to 9 include the cost BEGIN NOTE. 10 MR. STARR: It's the same paradigm. Just 11 because you're switching from a CAV to a VAV, it's 12 the air coming out of the diffusers that matters. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think we want to do 14 an analysis based on something that we know is not 15 the right practice. 16 MR. STARR: Right. What I would say is 17 they just check, find some, you know, check night, 18 see what the design practice are. It's something 19 LBNL should do and look. And whatever they come back 20 with that, I'm fine with. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: We'll do that. We 22 assumed the cheapest thing to do was just to replace

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 219 1 the diffuser with this self powered VAV diffuser. 2 And again we should just do a little bit more 3 thorough check to make sure that's the lowest cost 4 option. So we'll do that. 5 The next thing I had was on the 6 maintenance cost, just look into increasing filter 7 costs with vap coil size. 8 MR. SACHS: Greg? 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I thought we 11 had something approaching a consensus that it is not 12 needed? 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: That it's not needed? 14 MR. SACHS: That it is likely to be small 15 compared to other thing it wasn't worth much time. 16 Wrong, I think Bob and Jill were pointing to that to 17 me. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Sorry I was writing down 19 some notes. 20 MR. WHITWELL: This is on maintenance? 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: To increase it with vap 22 evap coil size.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 220 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Forgo that? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: It does probably but I'm 3 thinking that the dollars is not enough to make a big 4 deal for you guys and what you're doing. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: All right. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's acknowledging that 7 it does in any future things you need to think about 8 that, it goes with square footage. But I will say 9 that it's probably only ten to $20 and will that 10 matter in all of this? Probably not. 11 MS. MEYERS: For this rule-making only. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. As I said, consider 13 that for next rule-making. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: This does not set a 15 precedent. 16 MS. MEYERS: I will back off on this. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: This does not set a 18 precedent. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 20 MS. MEYERS: I'll back off on it. 21 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ms. Rheem. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: And the repair costs,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 221 1 what I have is possibly changing the year in which 2 the repair occurs? We're doing it with ten. I was 3 hearing seven. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: And yeah. Charlie was going 5 to go back to the contractors and check into what 6 they think is noncompressor, but when -- when is more 7 of an average when the repairs are happening? 8 MR. SACHS: I can get 100,000 mile spark 9 plugs but I can't get more than a four-year 10 contactor, something's wrong, lady. 11 MR. STARR: How did you come up with ten? 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: It was RS means. 13 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say if 14 it's important to use RS means in some things, let's 15 just use them in all things. We can certainly look 16 at something -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: I will acknowledge there's 18 only one. RS means does include both compressor and 19 noncompressor, so we're using it for both so you 20 could potentially argue ten includes compressor 21 weighted in and their phrasing. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Compressor weighted in, I

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 222 1 can understand that. But purely, I know that this 2 other stuff is changed out Sooner than that. Like 3 you said, run time is a lot. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: So what does that mean 5 then for the compressor repair? Are we okay with the 6 ten year on that? 7 MR. STARR: Didn't we just say it's an 8 average of the noncompressor and the compressor 9 seals. So you just, potentially just found out. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't know how RS means 11 that. If everything agrees we will do ten for 12 compressor and we'll see what aGus does for 13 noncompressor, then -- 14 MR. STARR: I'd rather just use RS means 15 across the board, if we're gonna do it that way. But 16 I think it is worth getting ACTA'sxxx opinion, 17 regardless and make our decision once we get action 18 California's opinion. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do we think a couple years 20 on either side of ten are going to make a difference? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I asked him, he said it 22 would change where the discount rate, I asked him.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 223 1 He said it could. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're annualizing over the 3 life. I guess we don't agree on the life. 4 California l. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: It is not going to be a 6 large impact. It hits all the EL's the same, so it 7 does in change the way they're separated. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: But but the compressor 9 repair does go up with efficiency, so it's what -- I 10 know. Going from ten to 12, I mean, 10 to 11 years, 11 I can't see that making a big difference but -- 12 MR. STARR: I'll compromise, to be honest. 13 Whatever's in RS means, I'll go with, if that 14 includes all the way around. If they're saying 15 equipment cost is one and a half times more for a 16 slightly more efficient unit, then I'll go with that 17 if it's in RS means. But that also applies with the 18 rest of this stuff, like in terms of lifetime. You 19 see what I'm saying? In other words, if you're using 20 a standard, use the standard across all of the stuff. 21 Unless it's obviously wrong and I think we get 22 something back from Actaxxxx that says actually it's

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 224 1 two years, we should probably -- or, you know, use 2 105 years, a different range, we should take a look 3 at it. BEGIN NOTE check 105 END NOTE. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: So is the group okay with RS 5 means across the board, then? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 7 MR. TERZIGNI: On the record, we are not 8 agreeing to RS means across the board. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: We will see what ACTAXXX 10 has to say and then we'll make something. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Is this something that can 12 be e-mail between sessions? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: If we get something from 14 ACTAxxx? 15 MR. THARP: What about SMACNAxxx? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: We can run one with a 17 different number of years and see what the difference 18 is. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what if we were to say 20 13 and seven for each of those two and then just run 21 the numbers, right? Because we think ten is the 22 average of both of those situations. So if we knock

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 225 1 one down three and knock the other up three, do aand 2 7 and just show the numbers would that give equal 3 comfort? 4 MS. COUGHLIN: Maybe. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm feeling uncomfortable. 6 I was feeling uncomfortable a second ago. If we're 7 acknowledging it's an average, I agree you can't just 8 change half. BEGIN NOTE. 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, we can do it. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, we already have it 11 done. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So 13 and 7 sound 13 reasonable? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: That will be fine. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So 13 years for a 17 compressor. That's kind of long. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I know, but let's see what, 19 given the sensitivity analysis. 20 MS. MEYERS: It doesn't mean we're going 21 agree with it. You're not saying you're going agree 22 that accept the results, are you?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 226 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to just show 2 that. We are going to see, we're talking a lot about 3 something that might not matter, I guess is what 4 we're -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Not saying we accept 6 it. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the next thing I have 8 is lifetime and I heard a lot of discomfort around 9 the values. I think where we're left is hopefully 10 getting the ARH shipment data and putting it into our 11 shipments model and doing it, recalibrate and see 12 where that, where that new value comes out at. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then I think on top of 14 that, Jill was doing the heavy lifting. She said in 15 her company they do this kind of modeling, so to the 16 extent that the manufacturers can get with an NDA or 17 however you want to do it, get a different numbers, 18 I'm okay with that, too. If you want to talk to your 19 NDA and we roll them up to what we think might be a 20 different number -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Manufacturers are always 22 looking at that, right, because replacement --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 227 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a big part of your 2 planning, right? I get it. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's a good way 5 to look at it, right? You're investing lots of money 6 in your planning to get the shipments forecast right 7 for your manufacturing, so I think that's a good 8 number, too. 9 MR. STARR: I think integrating that into 10 Katie's number, I think the manufacturers might be 11 optimistic. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I have an NDA with Navigant. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you have one, too. I 14 don't know how quickly these guys -- they both do it. 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just got to beat up my 16 lawyers, which is fine. I love beating them up. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can provide it to 18 Detlef. 19 MR. WHITWELL: So we can give it to 20 Detlef, he can take the data and compile it. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then he can pass the one 22 number.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 228 1 MS. HOOTMAN: That will be good because 2 believe me, I'm like, I'm a little like his company. 3 My lawyers take another five weeks. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's the best 5 way. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: As long as we have it in 7 three so one can't tell what the other one. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Three minimum. You on 9 board with that Rusty or Dave? 10 MR. THARP: I'm sorry. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: We were talking about 12 lawyers over here. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Because we have two that 14 are -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Rife something that would 16 show an assumption. 17 MR. THARP: And this is the 13-7? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. We're good on that. 19 The lifetime, your internal planning processes, you 20 have some lifetime assumptions -- 21 MR. THARP: Right. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: If we can get at least

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 229 1 three years, we can get it to Detlef, he can create 2 an industry average. 3 MR. THARP: Yes, we can provide an 4 internal lifetime target, which is less than any of 5 the numbers I've seen here. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 7 MR. WHITWELL: So it's going to be, it 8 will show what we use for our planning purposes. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 10 MR. THARP: We plan for our warranty plus 11 one day. Just kidding. Just kidding. Care we plan 12 ours to last one day longer than theirs. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would think we would get 14 up to five days, there are five manufacturers. 15 That's good. We've got a plan there. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: And then the last thing I 17 have is checking the discount rates. You actually 18 pointed out that he saw a discrepancy with other 19 product rule-making, so I'll definitely look into 20 that and see what's going on. Definitely should 21 be -- maybe not exact but certainly not that 22 different.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 230 1 MR. THARP: A few tenths don't -- I can 2 understand tenths but not a couple points. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: No. 4 Oh, and then -- one more thing, which is 5 that rule update, the base case efficiency 6 distributions once we get the market share data BEGIN 7 NOTE. 8 MR. HUNT: So we have 19. I think that's 9 a good list? Anybody else? For me, that's a good 10 list.xx. 11 MR. WHITWELL: I have a question. So this 12 is Bob from Carrier. Greg, question for you, on the 13 payback numbers you show, for instance on the 15-ton, 14 I went the look in the NOPR to see what the numbers 15 were in there, and I didn't see a simple payback, I 16 saw a median payback. I just wanted to know how I 17 compare these to what's in the NOPR. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. So the simple -- 19 the simple payback we are not -- 20 MS. MEYERS: It's not so simple. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Were not provided in the 22 NOPR. John -- John has noted this and we are

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 231 1 providing simple paybacks in all our rule-makings. 2 As a means for everyone to sort of get a handle on, 3 you know, sort of a simple way to measure the cost 4 effectiveness of the efficiency level. So, again, 5 that 4.4, 5.7, 5.5 and 4.5 you will not find anywhere 6 in the NOPR or TSD because we didn't provide the 7 paybacks in that way. We provided them as medium 8 paybacks from the distribution of our results. 9 So these simple paybacks are simply the cost 10 effectiveness, the payback period of each efficiency 11 level relative to the baseline. There it's deprived 12 the first year operating cost savings and the total 13 installed cost. So total installed cost increase. 14 So you should be able to just derive that from 15 looking at those numbers. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So add the 14.078 and the 17 2508 and divide it into -- 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: The difference between 19 the total installed cost divided by the change in the 20 first year operating cost. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: That should give you --

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 232 1 that better give you 4.4, so -- 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this was made so you 3 could actually read the table across and down. 4 Previously, you know, because it looked at the 5 distribution, you'd do the math and say the numbers 6 don't add up. So now the tables stand on their own 7 merit. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: It used to be we had the 9 information in the bottom table combined with the top 10 so it led some people to be confused about how 11 numbers were determined. So everything in the top 12 table is, again, the costs and -- the costs for that 13 particular efficiency level. So that you can easily 14 derive then the simple payback for that efficiency 15 level. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: And that would be the 17 material that you guys put on your web site, right, 18 when you -- when you showed the cost effectiveness 19 of, you know, the rebel unit, for example, and said 20 there's a pay back of two years or three years, 21 whatever it says. That's the number up there. It's 22 not some distribution of people, winners and losers,

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 233 1 whatnot. 2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Greg, for me, 3 the sort of philosophical gag is that we talk about 4 paypack as a really primitive, simple consumer 5 friendly measure. And when you -- in that's what's 6 simple payback is to me, is numerator over 7 denominator. But then when you say median payback, 8 that really does feel like decorating the pig because 9 now I'm put ago distribution on top of a number and I 10 just don't know how the median differs from the mean 11 on your distribution. It just seems to me to be -- 12 MS. COUGHLIN: The difference -- there's 13 more to it than that. 14 MR. SACHS: There's more to it than it 15 needs to be. 16 MS. COUGHLIN: No because then the median 17 is going to be going to be less BEGIN NOTE. 18 MS. COUGHLIN: The median payback is from 19 the LCC distribution and the LCC calculation includes 20 discount, which is how it is a different number than 21 the payback. So they're just different 22 representations.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 234 1 MR. SACHS: But payback by definition to 2 meen my old world is nondiscounted. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: That is nondiscounted. 4 MS. COUGHLIN: So the payback is 5 nondiscounted. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: So the median payback 7 period that we were reporting before okay was 8 calculated for every iteration of our Monte Carlo 9 simulation. So for every ten,000 -- every iteration 10 of those 10,000 iterations we have calculated payback 11 period nor that particular run and then create a 12 distribution and take the median value from it. 13 That's what we were doing Mr.. 14 MR. SACHS: Let me see if I can rephrase 15 this. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 17 MR. SACHS: I'm thinking about the 18 argument intent of terms BEGIN NOTE, it seems like to 19 me, as I said at beginning, philosophical, it seems 20 to be a bit abusive of the concept of simple payback. 21 It confused me more than anything else. I can follow 22 your explanation, but I'm not sure it's useful to me.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 235 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: It seemed to confuse 2 other people, too so, that's why we moved to this new 3 way of doing things. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: More importantly, I didn't 5 like it. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. John didn't like 7 it so we changed. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I actually understood the 9 table, I just didn't like the way it was calculated. 10 MR. HUNT: I'm going to assume that this 11 table is going to change, right, next time. You're 12 going to redo the analysis. 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, yes, we -- we have 14 our charge. 15 MR. HUNT: Okay. But should I be 16 thinking, as I look at these numbers more, is it ten 17 percent change, don't even go there? Don't even try 18 to guess, okay. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean we are going up, 20 we're going down, we are going sideways. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. I don't want Paul 22 pointing anything at this point.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 236 1 MR. HUNT: Maybe we should have a 2 comparison for next time so some of us locked into 3 certain numbers. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do you want to see, from 5 Bob's point of view, do you like to see incremental 6 updates from deck to deck or do you want to go back 7 to the NOPR? What's more -- what's easier for you? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: These ones in-between since 9 we've change sod much, I don't know that it makes a 10 whole lot of difference. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: You don't like the interim 12 stuff so back to the NOPR. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: NOPR. 14 MR. STARR: I have a question now that 15 your table is populated so why did those numbers go 16 down that? Is that the fan that caused that to go 17 down? I understand why the upper left went up. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: There are certainly a lot 19 more lifetime operating cost because of the increase 20 in energy consumption. 21 MR. STARR: Because of the fan, right? 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Because the fan and the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 237 1 additional heating load, too, because of the fan. 2 MR. STARR: The higher EL levels went up 3 because they had overpredicted energy and those 4 weren't realistic coil type configurations, right, 5 like EL4 and 5? 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: You have to remember EL4 7 and 5 also include the diffuser replacements. 8 MR. STARR: That's right. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Next time. 10 MR. STARR: Okay. I just want to get a 11 general kind of a hundred thousand foot view of what 12 changed. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the last issue was, 14 again going back to the dual duct units that we 15 talked about a little bit yesterday, and I don't -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's just clarify because I 17 think some people were talking about there are two 18 different things in the industry that are called dual 19 duct, one is ducting for heating, ducting for cooling 20 and they're separate. This is a unit that it is 21 outdoor air, its condenser air is ducted outside 22 because this unit is placed inside, internal to a

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 238 1 building. So the condenser air is ducted out. It 2 also has ductwork attached to it for supply of 3 cooling into the building. One of the ways that you 4 might have that is literally in one of my 5 manufacturing plants, I have a little Trane room, you 6 know this, is a 40-foot story building inside so that 7 little Trane room is, you know, air conditioned, it's 8 got a little tiny unit on it and you duct that air 9 out or parking garages I've seen have stuff like 10 that. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Or a unit that fits in a 12 ceiling. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yet. 14 MR. SACHS: This is small bore specialty 15 niche equipment. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: We might take a standard 19 unit and do it to it, but the application is pretty, 20 pretty slender. 21 MR. SACHS: And my sense is that this 22 particular subspecies of dual duct is small in

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 239 1 number, small in capacity, small in natural energy 2 potential. I don't care about it. 3 MR. STARR: Why was it brought up? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because to go into those 5 higher EL levels that that static performance of 6 those condenser fans can't push it. And now you're 7 gonna have to go up to much bicker condenser fans and 8 you can't the static and can't fit it. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So there might be a new 10 capacity for a new product class? END NOTE. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the proposal, what we 12 wrote in the NOPR and what we talked about a little 13 yesterday was, yeah, separate product class, you 14 know, well defined probably, you know, that would be 15 not part of what we're negotiating here and may be 16 held to the standard they're being held to today. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Which is the same as -- 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Same as what they've 19 been -- you're gonna test the way they've been 20 testing. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So in a way, it's kind of 22 like Ptacks with the sleeve kind of thing, right?

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 240 1 Okay, they're maxed out by the sleeve, you know, and 2 that whole thing. That would be kind of the path 3 would it -- it would diverge down the path? Okay. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And so for this, 5 we would just leave it. 6 MR. AMRANE: Hold on a minute. From HR. 7 Er it would be a different metric than EER? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll think about that. 9 But you get the concept? 10 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 11 MR. STARR: Is this a class of equipment 12 somewhere defined? Is it in the NOPR or somewhere, I 13 could do some more looking into it. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's why I said we'd 15 have to have a real good definition. I don't think 16 we have actually defined it fully and we'd want to do 17 that. But the way Jill described the equipment, 18 that's what we're talking about, would be a way to 19 describe that. 20 MR. STARR: So you're calling that dual 21 duct. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's what I'm calling.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 241 1 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not the old traditional 2 heat cooling and heating ducts. 3 MR. SACHS: For one thing, it's not an 4 RTU, it's internal to the building. It's 5 nonweatherized. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we might be -- the 7 industry tends to use your weather iced cabinet for 8 this. In other words we don't create another whole 9 separate cabinet and design and everything so it's 10 commonly used with a weatherized kind of design but 11 it's brought inside. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, some are -- some are 13 completely different cabinets, right? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Well, yeah, some 15 manufacturing yes. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: You weren't here but can 17 HRI propose this definition of what we're talking 18 about? Because I know you have submitted -- 19 MR. AMRANE: Right. I think we can work 20 with the manufacturers. Why. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why don't we task you guys 22 with that. As part of this.

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 242 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Because would you write that 2 in here that this is then gonna again separated. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and as part of 4 that, I'd like to have a sense of the census, are we 5 talking about 10,000 units a year, 100,000 units a 6 year, a million units a year? And -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: Keep going down. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Keep going down. 9 MR. SACHS: What I'm saying, I'd like to 10 say, I see this as being self limited but I'm not 11 likely to have a great market push to expand these 12 numbers enormously. I want to be able to make the 13 case that this is de minimis, we don't need to worry 14 about it because it's not important in a national 15 energy sense. 16 So I'd like to have a sense of -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's why the definition 18 will be point so it won't be BEGIN NOTE that's why -- 19 agreed. I think we all agree on that. 20 MR. SACHS: I would like to have a sense 21 whether this is stuff that's always less than ten 22 tons, always less than five tons as part of the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 243 1 description of that capacity. Thank you. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So HRI will organize that. 3 MR. SACHS: We're happy to look it and see 4 if we understand it. 5 MR. AMRANE: Sure. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's all. I don't know 7 if anyone else has any thoughts. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm sorry -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Can we get an e-mailed copy 10 of this stuff? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we have this stuff 12 mailed? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: It should be going in the 14 docket if not. 15 MR. WHITWELL: It wasn't last night. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: On the way home I asked 17 them to do it. They're probably working on it. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: This is more a question 19 for Detlef and James and Alison and Katie, in terms 20 of what analyses can you expect to see results for 21 next week. And just to condition your expectations, 22 I guess, or -- so are we sort of in agreement about

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 244 1 what we'll do? I guess what we think we're doing is 2 showing you the 30-ton engineering analysis results. 3 That's what Detlef and James will be providing. And 4 what we're going to be doing on our side then is 5 providing updated -- updated LCC results for seven 6 and a half ton and 15 ton. We won't able to do it, 7 most likely, for 30 tons because we won't be getting 8 the data soon enough. Then we'll be going over the 9 shipments modeling and some of the analysis we have 10 there. And I think that's about it, right? 11 MS. COUGHLIN: And the energy use. 12 MR. ROSENQUIST: When I say LCC, energy 13 use, as well. So just so you -- so everyone knows 14 what to expect next week. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: It's a minor logistical 16 thing, but Greg you're saying you need the shipment 17 data. How much time do you need with that in order 18 to get -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Listen, if we don't get 20 any shipments data we're going to present our 21 shipments model anyway to show you at least the 22 method of that we're going to be doing because we

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 245 1 feel that is important. 2 MS. COUGHLIN: We would need it tomorrow. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Really, to really 4 incorporate it. 5 MR. MISLAK: We can have a call tomorrow 6 and discuss it maybe. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll have to have one more 8 call. 9 MR. BANTLE: Well, I guess, do we have any 10 public comments? 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Emily, want to open up the 12 mics for us and see if there's anyone? 13 I did get a message from Michael that he 14 had to drop off so he is no longer on the webinar. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: The last thing about the 16 temp procedure. That was brought up. I spoke to 17 Ashley and she said she had sent some comment back. 18 MR. AMRANE: She did? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: On the 340, 360. She 20 encourages whoever to contact her about BEGIN NOTE 21 END NOTE so -- 22 MR. BANTLE: Not hearing anything on the

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 246 1 webinar, I think we're done nor the day. Thank you, 2 everybody. We'll see you next week. 3 (Thereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 4 1:56 p.m.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Meeting May 12, 2015 247 1 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 2 3 I, Donna Ann Peterson, the officer 4 before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do 5 hereby certify that the foregoing transcript is a 6 true and correct record of the proceedings; that said 7 proceedings were taken by me stenographically and 8 therefore reduced to typewriting under my 9 supervision; and that I am neither counsel for, 10 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 11 case and have no interest, financial or otherwise, in 12 its outcome. 13 14 15 16 Donna A. Peterson 17 18 19 20 21 22



### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 202-220-4158 

## www.hendersonlegalservices.cmn

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A a--58:7 a.7529:3 a.m 1:9 aand 225:1 aback 198:9 ability 196:8

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## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 94:5,17,18 95:17,22 96:1,2 97:8 98:10,12 99:17,22 100:1 103:21 104:16 108:11 113:6 115:5 128:18 128:21 130:19 132:5 132:18 134:16 135:1 135:2 136:1 138:9 139:16 141:21 144:4 145:14 146:4 146:11 147:6 147:20 150:3 154:17 155:14 158:13 161:6 169:2,21 170:9 171:18 172:20 175:13 177:15 188:13 191:19 200:18 208:17 209:13 219:2 231:4 232:12 237:14 242:2 against83:5

101:19 age 153:4 agency's58:1 aggressive

20:2 ago32:2 49:17

62:3 65:14 99:11 113:4 115:15 161:9 167:22 192:21 225:6 233:9 agree42:21

50:12 74:21 75:6 108:1 132:10 133:14 146:16 152:15 155:12 156:12 161:21 163:19 167:12,13,16 176:6 177:12 223:3 225:7 225:21,21 242:19 agreed 72:6

109:13,17,19 110:2 242:19 agreeing

224:8 agreement

55:7 62:6 243:22 agrees222:11 aGus222:12 ahead 128:7

137:6 188:12 ahold 34:18 AHRI4:21

64:22 76:2 77:13,22 160:6,9 172:12 ain't42:11,13

125:21 air 1:3 11:4,18

12:1,8,9,9,13 13:2,16,16 24:13,14 27:6 34:1,2 36:8 84:2,3,4 84:6,12,12 84:14,14,15 85:7,12,12 85:15,17,20 86:1,5,18 87:3 88:9,9 88:10 94:9,9 94:11,12,13 94:15 96:13 96:14,18,18 96:21,22 97:16,17 98:2,6,15,16 98:19,21 99:5 100:2,3 100:6,6,13 102:9,9 109:1 112:22 113:1,5,7,8 114:8,13,13 114:15,16,20 115:1 116:1 121:6 123:4 123:8,10,11 123:13,14 124:19 125:2 125:3,8,9,10 125:12,13 134:18 137:14 147:5 147:12,13 160:12 172:3 172:3,9 190:5,9 193:8,10 196:9 200:13 203:19 206:5 214:22 215:4 215:6 216:10 216:16,20,22 217:4,9,11 217:11 218:12 237:21,21 238:1,7,8 air-moving

49:22 Al93:17,17 align 24:17 Alison3:8 94:1

149:6 177:2 243:19 all 8:13 9:15

16:2 17:22 19:18 21:19 23:3,8,11 24:20 25:14 26:20 29:9 32:9 33:14 33:15 40:20 42:13 43:4 47:1 51:16 53:1 55:14 56:17,21 58:14,17 61:18 63:5 63:10 66:3,8 66:21 67:19 67:21 69:15 71:2,7,15 72:4 75:9 76:15 77:1 78:4 80:5 84:9,11 87:15 89:5,9 91:18 101:8 101:9 102:11 105:5 106:17 108:18 110:12,16 113:19 119:20 120:10 122:3 123:16 127:6 130:15,16 131:9,13,17 132:10 133:9 136:16 138:10 145:18 147:18,22 149:21,21,21 152:14,22 153:13 154:2 154:10,11 157:17 159:11 160:3 165:8 166:19 166:21 171:11,21 172:6 173:15 174:9,20,20 175:2,22 176:3,8 178:10,14 179:4,7 183:5 184:7 190:12,22 191:14 195:22 197:4 200:14,15 203:21 207:8 208:1 209:5 209:22 213:20 214:11 216:9 216:14,15,17 217:18 220:5 220:10 221:15 223:6 223:14,20 231:1 242:19 243:6 Allied5:1 allow 122:22

124:5 allowed

210:15 allows 73:6 alluding 95:6 almost 17:13

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 40:17 59:20 71:20 102:13 139:19 144:22 146:3 215:16 along 15:6

62:6 71:7 75:9 98:11 203:20 205:2 already25:22

61:2 68:6,15 68:15 72:1 73:10 85:1 101:4 128:8 162:22 203:21 213:14 216:13 225:10 also3:16 6:12

8:8 13:10 17:19 22:5,6 27:13,15 30:20 31:19 43:10 58:2 58:18 59:5 70:1 86:20 88:5,16 92:5 122:22 126:4 134:1,22 135:5,7 138:12 151:6 156:1,3,6,8 156:12 159:1 162:19 175:8 178:4 182:20 196:6 203:6 203:10,12 205:8 210:22 213:5 223:17 237:7 238:2 alternate

179:22 alternative 53:19 121:5 alternatives

121:1,4 although 43:8

153:12 always4:3

59:7 75:1 145:1 181:21 226:21 242:21,22 am 52:13

113:18 133:1 136:4 153:12 178:1 247:9 amend 78:13

78:14 amendment

78:12 among 203:17 amongst

80:12 amount9:21

36:19 46:22 54:14 57:2,4 80:20 108:22 161:17 175:18 177:7 185:13 amounts

109:20 amPoussaint

181:3 AMRANE64:4

76:2 79:10 116:22 117:5 156:13,17 240:6,10 241:19 243:5 245:18 AMTAxxx

210:19 analyses

102:15 180:1 243:20 analysis4:9 8:19 10:6,17 10:21 13:7 20:19 27:14 34:6 36:14 37:8 40:5 46:12 56:8 59:11,19 62:10,12 63:10 66:4 71:1 72:13 83:14,20 84:9 89:21 90:4,5,12,18 91:2,10 92:3 92:6 95:6,8 96:5 102:3,5 102:21 104:19 105:11 106:15 108:6 109:12,18 116:6,6,9 117:16 118:5 118:13 119:10 120:10 121:9 123:6 125:7 131:15 137:9 137:19 139:12,15,21 143:2 144:7 145:8 146:3 147:18 149:21 150:11,21 151:1,10 154:10 155:1 155:5 156:22 157:15 158:7 158:9 164:1 169:21 170:2 170:11 172:17 173:20 174:1 175:19 179:12 190:6 195:21 196:2 196:3,18 200:20 201:18 202:3 202:13 203:7 206:2 208:10 208:11 218:14 225:19 235:12 244:2 244:9 analyst 166:5 analyzed

84:10 138:4 analyzing

102:20 172:2 Andrew2:8

5:3 110:15 Anecdotally

152:16 Ann247:3 annual 34:3 annualizing

223:2 anomalous

43:16 anomaly51:6 another 15:17

47:8 53:21 54:1 66:9 70:21 97:10 117:10 150:17 155:16 157:5 160:5 162:21 163:11 164:8 186:20 205:2 206:2 228:3 241:8 answer55:17

64:9 75:15 76:3 77:4,4 132:6 146:22 160:18 166:8 answers 211:7 Anybody

230:9 anymore89:16

107:17 185:3 201:10 anyone 162:5

177:17 189:17 243:7 245:12 anything21:12

48:13 49:11 49:12 62:9 66:20 71:22 83:1,2,3 88:13 109:9 127:9 137:7 145:5 146:10 169:4,22 185:2 186:9 193:17 197:19 198:10 199:8 234:21 235:22 245:22 anyway8:16

8:18 86:12 87:14 130:17 153:18 155:18 173:7 244:21 anywhere99:3

231:5 AO31:6 apart 163:12

163:13 apologize8:4

8:13 173:7,7 apparently

65:16

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 appendix77:9 Appliance5:3 application

49:1 238:19 applications

192:8 applied 24:1

37:22 84:11 97:7 98:1 137:15 149:9 149:20,22 192:17,20 194:20 applies46:13

129:10 132:13 223:17 apply24:8

97:22 137:13 181:3,21 187:18 applying84:3

84:5 131:8 150:3 appreciably

173:22 appreciate

62:21 approach

53:20 89:17 122:9,20 123:15 194:10 approaching

152:14 219:11 appropriate

108:16 147:19 196:19 approximately

127:8 April86:18 AQE 181:2,3 area 127:19 132:19 142:12 areas 142:10

191:19 aren't63:4

110:5 145:17 185:21 argue 19:7

38:6 101:19 221:20 arguing 22:15

133:19 argument

133:5 234:18 ARH226:10 around 4:6,10

4:11 49:11 65:16,20 91:4 167:9 167:10 195:21,22 223:14 226:8 array 18:11 ash 213:10,10 Ashley245:17 ASHRAE7:2

8:17 64:14 64:22 75:22 155:4 160:22 161:21 204:6 204:14 213:6 ASHRAExxx...

94:6 ask 16:10 18:2

31:7 48:5 70:22 77:18 105:20 176:5 205:8 207:17 207:18 211:7 asked 8:8 67:6

77:21 222:21 222:22 243:16 asking 58:6 105:2 124:12 198:9 215:14 aspect22:20

46:11 aspects23:5

203:5 ASRAC1:1 assess 170:5 assessment

206:17 assign 24:18 assigned 29:3 associated

11:14 13:19 24:12 25:16 128:19 150:9 200:22 203:5 assume20:18

21:2 78:4 92:11 100:17 140:2 151:2 153:18 154:13 189:5 235:10 assumed 15:2

139:19 157:4 218:22 assumes

118:20 assuming

17:12 21:10 22:20 62:5 66:22 68:14 114:21 117:1 117:12,15 131:21 133:12 139:18,22 140:3 144:8 169:10 172:4 assumption

22:18 82:18 85:15 91:13 92:1 100:3 125:3,10,16 128:18 132:9 158:14 228:16 assumptions

26:9 60:6 66:22 78:2 168:16 179:5 203:22 228:20 assurance

81:2,8,18 attached 12:16

12:19 238:2 attendance

4:6,9 attributing

138:17 augment

17:13 availability7:8

7:14 available

54:16 207:20 218:7 avarice 112:9 average 18:10

18:12 20:4 25:18 34:3 48:5 54:6 89:6 107:9 107:15 115:14 135:18 150:1 159:7 170:3 173:11 211:1 211:16 221:7 222:8 224:22 225:7 229:2 averaging

115:12 146:18 avoid 12:2 177:20,21 awaiting

151:20 aware 74:6 Awareness

5:4 away76:14

159:13 165:17 185:2 axis 15:19 B B 189:14 BABA172:5 back6:3 29:21

36:17 43:5 44:5 46:20 49:15,16 58:13 59:5 60:7 66:12 67:9 68:18 70:19 71:19 72:10 75:7 80:14 105:10 111:11,12 112:20 114:18 115:5 124:6,22 126:14 136:11 138:13 147:9 147:10 152:13 153:22 154:10 165:4 165:6 171:3 171:12,16 176:9 177:21 177:22 179:2 191:6 192:20 201:22 202:20 205:11 208:3 208:20

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 210:13 213:3 218:19 220:16,20 221:5 223:22 232:20 236:6 236:12 237:14 245:17 background

210:17 backs 190:4 bad 42:2,8

91:13 136:7 baked 21:6 balance

153:15 Bantle2:2 4:2

4:3,12 5:15 5:20 57:16 83:10 178:17 178:20 179:1 187:16,20 188:2 245:9 245:22 Barkas 5:8 barometric

62:14,16 base 14:13

18:8 20:8 31:16 33:12 35:20 39:4 39:21 92:4 94:3 115:10 142:20 156:20 157:12 158:1 158:10 171:18,20 188:9 230:5 base-case

90:9 based 7:2,3,7

7:9,13 9:10 28:14 31:15 47:13 54:16 58:17 63:7 68:14 70:4 71:22 74:14 95:12 96:15 98:8 109:3 109:18 115:12 119:14,15,17 119:20 122:7 122:16 127:1 128:20 134:19,21 150:22 151:11 188:7 202:9 211:9 218:14 baseline35:16

35:21 94:12 94:14 96:20 102:11 103:19 118:12 139:4 172:5,9 173:14 231:11 basic 174:5 basically 17:9

25:13 47:18 56:8 92:1 125:11 133:21 148:5 150:14 151:15 152:7 152:9 168:6 172:11 basing 69:15

116:12 139:16 163:22 basis 16:4

44:22 66:3 86:13 87:18 95:9 96:5 129:18 183:16 187:13 197:21 bathtub 145:9 Battaglia2:3

5:9,9 6:21,22 7:7 bearings

149:10 154:2 beat227:15 beating 227:16 beats 162:8 becoming

25:19 before6:2,9

9:1 21:17 51:9 59:5,6 59:21,22 60:5 76:5 119:14 145:3 149:19 153:10 156:21,22 157:3 176:10 179:2 191:17 199:14 201:3 234:7 247:4 BEGIN 6:16

7:4 9:6,7 11:16 13:16 14:9 20:14 23:8,12 24:22 29:5,5 31:18 41:6 42:4,7 44:9,9 46:14 50:7 53:14 54:16 54:17 61:16 66:21 67:19 67:19 68:4,4 72:1 76:6 80:21 83:3 84:21 86:14 90:7,7 94:1 95:19,20,21 97:3,3,19 98:19 100:18 103:1,3 112:2 120:3 120:3,10,11 122:2 123:16 123:16 146:11,11 147:9 155:4 155:7 157:16 161:16 162:14 169:7 171:17,17 173:1 174:15 175:8,19,19 186:10 193:1 193:1 206:3 206:3 208:6 208:6,10 211:3,3 212:14 214:12 215:22 218:9 224:3 225:8 230:6 233:17 234:18 242:18 245:20 beginning

154:3 234:19 begins85:12 behalf205:9 behind 41:16 being 20:10

24:1 50:13 60:8 65:16 65:19 90:6 143:10 161:9 174:13,14 177:8 186:8 211:18 212:16 216:21 239:16 242:10 believe4:7

6:17 62:14 64:4 78:3 100:12 116:3 171:13 206:16 228:2 below85:13

86:18 87:16 98:6 100:2 125:9 181:18 181:19 182:12 217:12,14 benefiting

174:21 Berkeley

35:11 best 10:1

80:11,11 164:22 179:10 211:1 215:8 228:4 better21:5

33:18 38:22 47:10 51:19 70:1 82:11 87:22 111:15 111:16 133:2 149:14 153:9 153:9 164:16 166:10 190:8 192:7,12 210:8 232:1 between 8:19

8:20 17:14 36:7 37:21 38:20 39:21 42:11 52:1 54:6 86:21 100:9,12 105:8,9

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 114:12 120:5 120:13 133:6 135:4 153:11 156:14 171:4 185:11 189:3 191:21 198:5 210:21 211:21 215:12 224:12 231:18 bicker239:7 big 7:18 21:9

23:7 35:2,19 41:22 42:13 45:7 81:10 92:10 100:9 156:19 169:15 195:12,15 199:5 202:15 202:16,16 209:1 220:3 223:11 227:1 big-box

193:11 197:9 bigger41:6

56:1 126:5 129:11 142:22 197:21 201:9 biggest28:21

197:18 billion 192:21 bins208:22 bird 185:8 birds 185:6 bit8:14 15:15

21:14 26:15 26:18 36:4 36:12 42:6 46:19 52:4 60:8 80:3,13 83:12 92:11 124:4,4 131:15,16 136:6 145:21 159:4 167:6 175:3,8,21 177:7 179:12 193:6 219:2 234:20 237:15 BLAST29:2,18

29:21 board 214:7

222:15 224:5 224:8 228:9 Bob4:19 6:3

39:14 100:14 112:18 129:2 181:6 187:21 212:2 219:16 230:12 Bob's236:5 boilerplate

95:5 book 110:7 boom 167:22 booms 17:17 border 193:15 bore238:14 both 32:22

34:9 39:8,10 39:11 102:7 138:5 221:18 221:19 224:22 227:14 bothered

189:8 bottom 15:7

135:14 173:10 232:9 bought89:15

104:18 Boulevard 1:8 bound 55:2 box86:3 98:15 98:22 100:11 106:21 135:3 198:20 199:5 199:18 201:17 214:18 boxes 87:13

99:2 125:1 bra214:12 Brainstorm

57:10 break57:13,14

57:18 86:21 124:5 167:3 173:16 176:4 176:10 178:22 breakage

133:7 breaks201:8 breathing

56:19 briefly 10:11 bring 86:18

124:20 213:10,10 bringing 62:21

164:3 broad 159:15 broader49:5

127:20 133:8 brought7:22

90:13 181:6 181:6 198:11 239:3 241:11 245:16 Btu's40:16 bucks 136:5 build 11:9

22:22 96:19 168:19 building 11:1

11:8,11,15 11:21 12:4,6 12:6,8 13:1,5 13:7,7,11,12 14:4,17 17:4 18:8,17 19:9 20:17,20 21:15 22:22 24:11,18 25:12,20 26:12 27:5 27:12,17,21 28:1,2,3,21 29:3,12 30:3 33:22 46:12 52:17 53:2 84:18 87:15 94:11,14 95:7,12,17 96:4,18,21 96:22 97:2,2 97:3,6,6,14 97:15 98:2,3 100:4 101:7 123:1,8,9,11 123:14 124:18 125:10,13 134:19 137:14 195:21 208:10,15 214:16 238:1 238:3,6 241:4 buildings 11:5

12:15,20 13:14 15:1 17:10,11 24:15,18,20 24:22 25:12 25:14,15 26:7 27:11 27:15 29:9 32:2 84:4,6 84:11,15 88:12 94:9 94:10,15 97:16,16,17 97:19 99:19 101:17 112:1 123:6,6 132:16,21 172:3,4,6,10 196:8 202:16 208:16 211:5 217:10,22 buildup

116:18 built22:22

137:21 bumping

175:13 bunch 23:5

125:1 159:7 204:8 burnout 165:4 busts 17:17 buy86:10

87:14 121:16 153:20 buyer51:19 buying 170:5 BX 142:19 C C2:1 3:1 4:1 C.F.R64:11

68:13 77:11 77:20 79:12 CA96:17 cabinet 191:22

191:22 192:10,10 193:16,16 195:4 201:8 241:7,9 cabinets

241:13

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 calculate

73:20 calculated

12:17 175:2 234:8,10 235:9 calculating

35:9 166:12 calculation

29:6 35:1 49:6 53:20 54:5 95:14 144:10 233:19 calculations

10:10 28:9 28:14 95:15 211:9 calibrate

158:20 calibrating

151:22 calibration

156:2 157:9 California5:7

14:1 41:19 126:6,9 136:16,19 170:19 203:13 204:14 213:3 213:3,7 214:6 223:4 California's

222:18 call 52:17

92:21 94:3 105:19 118:5 128:9 133:6 152:6 155:6 164:12 171:18 191:15,21 192:15 208:12 215:14 245:5 245:8 called 135:1

136:13 237:18 calling 80:6

240:20,22 calls 124:5

165:13 209:20 came 14:11

58:5 127:13 145:15 168:12 191:19 cancels23:9 capacities

34:9 190:12 191:22 198:19 capacity 12:14

53:3 54:15 132:8 133:3 199:18 201:18 212:13 215:21 239:1 239:10 243:1 capital 170:3 capture96:9 captured

101:11 140:7 captures

140:4 capturing 44:7

55:22 92:3 car 163:10,12

165:17 carbon 165:8 care 12:5

84:16 215:15 229:11 239:2 careful 23:10 50:7 Carlo95:10,11

234:8 Carrier4:19

6:3 39:14 129:2 230:12 carry 123:3 case23:1

33:12 35:20 51:20 53:2 53:15 55:11 92:4 94:3 102:17 113:4 117:6,8 143:3 156:21 157:12 158:1 171:18 186:17 188:9 200:1 230:5 242:13 247:11 cases 92:5 casing 190:17

199:21 200:2 200:9 casings 113:7 catalogue87:6 categories

14:2,5,9,17 14:21 15:3 18:11 24:19 25:21 192:8 200:4 202:6 203:21 category 12:22

16:18 17:19 18:14,16 20:10 24:7 24:20 26:1,2 26:12 197:13 197:13,19 201:22 caused 236:16 CAV33:22 97:2,6 115:15 117:2 120:5,6 122:1 123:4 123:5,7,7 124:10,16 136:19 218:11 CBECS 11:7

11:10,15,20 14:7,15 15:13 25:17 25:22 27:7 168:11 195:22 ceiling 238:12 cells 114:8 census 11:10

13:21,22 24:2 25:3 102:17 168:6 242:4 central 167:11 cents 138:9 certain 28:18

40:6 58:15 115:6 158:14 161:17 165:20 192:20 210:21 213:20 236:3 certainly89:22

108:15 110:21 123:15 127:20 143:7 199:5 206:15 206:20 221:15 229:21 236:18 CERTIFICATE

247:1 certification 62:13 74:1,2 74:7,20 75:22 certified 75:17

82:3,8,8 204:16 certify73:7,20

75:4,8 77:7 77:18,20 82:1,2,15 247:5 certifying75:3

82:13 cetera 11:19

149:10 chair 172:5 chance7:20 change6:12

9:6 28:15,21 35:2 43:7 48:10 54:18 56:14 58:2 60:10 62:8 70:8 82:9 84:17 85:7 91:10,14 92:10,10,12 93:7 107:18 123:15 128:20 137:8 139:18 152:1 156:19 169:16 170:13 180:7 180:11 213:1 214:10,11 216:17 222:22 223:7 225:8 231:19 235:11,17 236:9 changed 4:4

6:8,9 8:19,20

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 9:2,12 15:9 28:10 90:3 91:13 99:11 131:16 139:13 168:12 175:15 222:2 235:7 237:12 changeout

214:2 changes 6:11

8:13 70:4 73:14 83:19 91:2 127:17 169:22 173:22 175:22 176:1 176:1,3 190:14 changing 9:11

54:8 81:19 92:1 99:13 221:1 channel 207:3

207:4,13 characteristi...

11:6 13:6 19:6,9,17 44:17 characterize

14:22 95:19 characters

171:20 charge82:22

107:9 119:6 235:14 charged 73:4

117:22 charges 138:5

138:6 Charles

126:13 Charlie 126:16

126:18 127:3 127:12 146:14,15 209:18,21 210:9 221:4 chart25:2

44:17 198:16 211:19 charted 62:20 chartered 83:3 charts 116:15 chasing 209:3 chat80:12 cheaper87:12

115:22 135:3 160:14 cheapest

125:17 218:22 check 105:18

109:6 112:4 112:6 114:15 123:16 189:8 205:20 207:7 207:14 211:3 218:17,17 219:3 221:5 224:3 checked 143:1 checking 79:3

208:21 229:17 checks 140:5 chew 137:11 Chicago27:21 chilly 182:19 choice43:17

115:6 116:8 118:6 125:11 choices40:20

40:21 choose42:14

151:4 chosen 13:8 circled 177:2 circular 135:14 cities 126:6 civil 118:6 clarify71:22

176:6,10 201:16 217:16 237:16 class 160:13

200:14 202:1 202:9 239:10 239:13 240:11 classes 155:9

157:20 190:13 191:1 191:11 clean 142:11

142:12 143:22 165:6 cleaning 140:4

142:11 clear72:3

115:8 176:7 clearly82:19

177:16 climate 11:11

13:10 56:5 climates 182:7

182:8 183:15 close 15:14

122:11 129:14 187:4 closer 126:5

171:8 clue 175:20 cluster 167:10 clustering

208:12 coalesce

212:2 Cochran 2:5 code21:15 73:18 74:14 77:16 185:13 185:18 codes20:20

123:1 185:21 coil 56:19

115:1 120:1 120:6,8 121:20 122:14 141:4 142:11 184:1 219:7,22 237:4 coils 140:4

143:22 165:16 cold 87:3

183:10,11,15 colder 182:8 colleagues

178:10 189:13 204:6 205:9 collect 109:6

202:20 205:10 208:16 collected

138:2 collecting

202:7 collection

193:16 column 48:8

96:11,12 148:6 149:4 208:18 columns 96:19

97:13 135:16 175:2 combination

19:3 192:22 combine49:20

49:22 103:10 combined 232:9 come9:22

19:2,11 39:5 39:11 55:7 66:12 72:10 77:21 80:14 81:3 98:21 111:12 124:6 129:14 132:9 144:11 155:7 158:9 163:15 167:20 170:7 176:9 181:14 184:9 191:5 203:18 204:12 208:3 210:22 218:19 221:11 comes20:4

36:11 56:18 63:3 68:1 87:3 133:1 163:18 204:10 226:12 comfort60:20

133:12 214:15 225:3 comfortable

69:6,9,20 90:1 169:9 coming 16:11

18:18,19 96:6 127:18 157:5 177:9 218:12 comment8:10

8:12 60:11 66:8,9 82:21 108:8 113:15 151:18 156:7 177:1 245:17

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 commented

59:22 commenter

23:5 comments

5:22 23:13 58:19,19,22 59:6 60:11 62:4 76:20 109:17 150:22 152:12,12 161:19 171:2 177:16 179:17 191:2 245:10 commercial

1:3 11:8 30:3 56:17 60:4 78:18 148:9 148:11,15 167:22 170:14,17 171:2,7,8,9 171:16 180:6 180:10 189:21 192:5 192:6,15,16 193:2 194:10 194:11 195:21 206:5 208:1,5 Commission

136:16 committee

60:8,18 common

32:21 140:13 215:9 commonly

241:10 companies

110:7 company59:8 110:3 127:21 212:14 226:15 228:2 company's

81:16 comparable

36:6 161:11 compare

173:8 230:17 compared

15:11 143:18 145:18 219:15 comparing

171:3 comparison

158:8 236:2 compile

227:20 complained

41:20 complaining

125:1 156:14 complaint

52:18 completely

77:5 180:13 241:13 complexity

100:21 compliance

20:19 21:2,9 21:10 22:6 22:11 70:17 74:2,7,19 78:15 82:3 139:9 complications

53:7 comply22:12

81:6,11 123:1 188:7 component

117:22 142:22 162:22 components

45:10 119:5 140:6 compress

91:11 compressor

29:21 45:16 52:1 53:9 90:4,11,13 90:16 91:14 91:19 92:6 92:12,14,15 92:22,22 93:1,9,10,16 113:9 114:22 145:6 149:11 149:18,22 150:4,7,17 151:3 154:18 156:20 157:4 158:15,19 159:2 162:20 164:7 165:9 174:4 190:9 221:18,20,22 222:5,8,12 223:8 225:17 compressors

91:7 120:2 148:14 150:2 165:3 compromise

223:12 concept 11:22

234:20 240:9 conceptually

133:5 concern 66:16

66:17 181:20 211:3 212:17 concerned

30:7,9 181:12 183:14 concerning

185:5 concerns

72:16,18 189:7 concluded

118:14 concur89:14

89:16 condensate

182:3,9,17 182:18,22 183:5,7,16 183:22 184:2 184:10,12,18 184:18 185:1 185:13,15,22 186:4,6,8,11 186:12,19 187:6,12 condenser

237:21 238:1 239:6,7 condensing

184:1 condition 49:3

243:21 conditioned

238:7 conditioner

12:13 24:13 24:14 conditioners

11:4 13:2 190:5 206:5 conditioning

1:3 12:1 conditions

24:13 211:14 conduct95:6 conference

216:7 confidence 169:15 configuratio...

210:18,21 237:4 confined

55:16 confirm 204:2

211:2 confuse235:1 confused

232:10 234:21 confusing

103:22 connecting

106:22 consensus

58:17 65:13 65:21 191:16 219:11 consequence

216:2 consequently

33:2,6 consider

89:22 179:20 192:5 198:21 199:6 202:17 220:12 consideration

198:13 206:21 consideratio...

104:16 considered

49:12 119:10 considering

69:7 consist97:15 consistent

33:16 189:1 consists 95:8 constant 12:9

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 15:3 36:8 84:2,3,12,15 85:7 88:9 94:8,12 96:13,17,21 97:16,18 98:2,19 100:3 102:9 102:20 113:1 114:16,20 116:1 123:11 123:13,14 124:19 125:2 125:3,10,12 125:13 134:18 137:14 139:22 140:2 147:13 172:3 172:9 216:10 216:20 217:9 217:10 218:5 constructed

15:16 construction

16:3 17:17 19:10,11,11 19:16 31:9 31:12,17 32:6,12,13 32:17 167:22 193:7 195:11 consulting

42:14 consumer

83:16 96:4 118:6 233:4 consumers

149:21 173:12 174:11,12,17 174:19,20 175:16 consumption 11:8 38:1 53:17,18 54:8,14 67:11 138:8 236:20 contact87:17

89:11 131:1 245:20 contactor

221:10 contactors

144:22 145:2 148:16 contacts212:9 contending

32:5 contentious

65:12 context57:21

58:3,10 65:12 contingent

81:17 continue71:9

80:12 88:13 123:3,7 128:3 Continued 3:1 continuing

36:13 90:19 118:11 141:18 contract5:13 contracting

109:19 110:3 127:14 contractor

92:21 93:2 105:1 110:22 111:4 163:15 164:2 210:9 211:2 contractors

146:16 164:13,15 221:5 contracts

210:1 contribution

209:1 control 100:17

101:7 107:3 107:4,19 135:6,9 controlled

86:5 100:15 100:16 149:9 controller

101:11 106:3 controls

100:20 101:3 106:7,7,8 107:6,8 142:7,8 conventional

135:5 converge

212:4 conversation

79:6 201:4 208:20 conversations

8:7 58:18 converse

212:7 conversion

29:8 30:10 30:13,16,20 30:21 31:11 31:12,21 32:2,6,9,14 32:15 36:11 39:6,7,9 46:2 52:9 85:1 88:6,17,21 96:9 97:21 97:22 99:20 99:20 104:8 104:10,14 126:12 127:6 128:4,6,13 129:3 131:8 131:18,20 133:4 190:14 191:9,10 200:4,10 201:9 203:2 203:6 204:14 conversional

85:20 conversions

39:10 converted

28:19 converts

210:20 convery30:22 convince

189:13 convinced

42:22 43:1,3 52:14 cool 50:22 cooled 160:13 cooling 11:18

14:12 15:4 18:4,7,10,13 18:20 27:13 28:8 34:4 35:1,11,13 38:22 44:21 45:5 51:3 55:15 209:2 215:5 237:19 238:3 241:2 cooling/heat...

55:13,15 202:17 copy76:17,21

243:9 correct9:3

55:12 69:2 75:4 79:16 116:20 117:13 118:3 118:16 127:10 132:14 138:14 140:12 154:8 156:10 185:19 187:18 217:1 247:6 correction

35:19 corrective

185:20 correlations

51:7 206:7 206:12,20 207:2 corresponds

86:20 192:5 corrosive

186:6 cost 10:16

83:13,16 88:6,17 90:14,14,17 93:2,16 95:14,16 98:10 100:9 100:15 101:12,21,22 102:2 103:3 103:4,10,11 103:15,19 104:2,4,4,6 104:15,17 105:3 106:16 106:21,22 108:19 109:6 110:3 111:6 111:7,13 112:8,15

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 113:5 114:13 115:17,22 116:1,12,13 116:17 117:11,20 118:18 119:3 119:22 120:10 121:2 121:4 125:18 127:1 128:6 128:9 129:6 129:11,14 130:21 131:9 134:19 135:15 136:7 138:15,17,18 139:1,2,4 141:2 142:20 144:10 145:18 147:11,11,19 150:8 153:21 158:9 164:17 169:21 170:3 170:9 173:5 173:13,13 174:6,9,10 174:17,17,18 174:22 175:13,17 176:2 192:3 196:5,18,20 201:18 203:19 209:12 212:10,11 215:16 218:9 219:3,6 223:15 231:3 231:9,12,13 231:13,19,20 232:18 236:19 cost-based 19:16 costs 10:15

11:6 84:13 85:1 90:3,4 90:18,20 91:1,2 92:6 92:22 93:3,3 93:10 101:21 106:2 112:20 112:22 115:9 115:10 118:17,18 122:16,21 126:21 128:5 129:7,19 134:15,22 135:4 136:2 137:12 139:16,20 140:8,16 142:5,14 144:4,6,20 145:17 146:10,18 147:16,21 149:19,20,22 150:4 154:11 165:20 173:9 173:9,10,18 173:19 175:5 175:6,8,18 203:8,22 210:7 219:7 220:22 232:12,12 Coughlin 2:6

5:11,11 6:14 10:3 15:11 15:20 16:6 16:12,14,17 17:6,8,16,21 18:21 19:3 19:13,15 20:8 21:13 23:13,17,19 24:3,7,10 25:7,9 26:11 26:14,18 27:1,3,5 28:5 31:3,14 32:1 32:8 33:12 33:18 35:5 35:22 36:21 37:7,13 38:3 38:17 39:8 39:11 44:3 44:20 45:4 48:12,19 49:8 52:7,11 52:12 56:6 57:8,11 138:1 151:19 153:4 155:14 155:22 157:9 158:13,20 159:14,21 163:6 167:19 168:10 169:2 169:8,14 223:5 225:4 225:9 233:12 233:16,18 234:4 244:11 245:2 counsel 247:9 count50:9 counting 78:8 country50:21

50:22 111:17 137:6 County204:17

204:18 couple28:10

54:18 55:10 164:12 176:13 192:9 222:19 230:2 course50:14 67:5 92:8 152:22 154:6 162:4 covers206:6 Craig's 159:13

159:16 crane 105:14

108:19,20 109:3,7,10 110:7,9 139:1 create 16:18

229:1 234:11 241:8 created 174:3 creating 63:7 crew206:21 cross 147:5,7 crosscheck

210:7 cruise50:2 CUAC24:19 cubicles

193:22 curb32:9 85:1

88:6,17 97:21,22 99:20,21 101:18 104:14 126:12 127:6 128:6,13 129:3 130:1 130:1 131:9 131:18,21 132:1,1,2 133:4,10 145:9 190:15 201:9 203:6 204:14,20 212:7,11 curbs32:14

89:14 104:8 104:10 122:10 129:20 132:17,17 200:4,10 curious

153:12 170:18 current 10:21

19:8,9 73:11 73:12 80:19 134:2 139:15 158:10 currently

52:22 61:15 61:22 63:16 79:14 121:13 curve29:8

30:10,16,21 30:22 31:11 31:13,13,21 32:2 33:5 36:11 39:7 44:9 46:3 52:9 167:4,8 203:14 curves29:4

30:13 32:16 39:9 88:21 96:9 97:11 curvexx32:7 customer

42:16 102:5 125:11 cut 161:14 cuts 133:10

134:2 CWAFs 180:19

180:22 cycle 10:15,16

83:13,16 90:5,13 91:1 92:5 95:14 95:16 118:18 130:21

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 144:10 158:9 173:19 174:9 174:9 175:6 175:12 176:2 cycling53:10

53:19 55:20 55:21 Cymbalsky2:4

4:13,13 8:6 8:22 9:3,14 9:18 20:13 21:14,22 22:8 23:2,6 58:5,21 60:7 60:17 61:14 62:8,18 63:6 64:10 68:2 69:5,14 71:19 72:7 72:20 73:3,9 74:13,21 75:6,16,19 76:11,16 79:17 80:4 82:21 83:8 123:19 124:8 162:13 163:14 164:5 164:11 166:2 167:7,13,16 167:18 176:19 177:11,14 178:6,13 179:11 188:15,20 190:3 208:7 222:19 223:2 224:19 225:5 225:12 226:1 226:13 227:1 227:4,13,17 227:21 228:4 228:8,13,18 228:22 229:6 229:9,13 232:2,16 234:3 235:4 235:8,19 236:4,11 237:9,13 239:11,18 240:4,8,14 240:22 241:16,21 242:17 243:2 243:6,13,16 245:15,19 D D4:1 212:9 Dade204:17

204:18 Darmington

2:7 darn 67:2 dashed 113:20

113:22 data 10:2

25:10 27:8 29:2 34:8 93:12 94:19 94:19 102:17 134:5,21 151:20 152:4 156:5 160:5 161:8 162:2 166:3,4,6,11 166:16 168:1 168:5,6 169:5,11,12 176:15 177:8 178:10,13 179:12 189:5 191:1 195:22 195:22 199:10,13 202:20 205:10 206:11 226:10 227:20 230:6 244:8,17,20 database

152:21 155:4 160:22 dataxxx

172:12 date70:14,16

80:21 Dave3:9

116:10 121:21 228:9 David5:1 day99:3

167:20 229:11,12 246:1 days79:18,22

229:14 de242:13 dead 58:16 deal 220:4 dealer 107:9 dealing 7:22

143:13 Deb213:5 debating 73:3 debt 129:3

170:7 decay 152:8 decide50:9 decision 58:7

90:7 163:22 164:22 169:1 191:17 222:17 decisions

19:16 deck236:6,6 declining

102:19 decorating 233:8 decrease45:4

45:6 157:21 decreased

118:1 decreasing

48:10 decrement

133:8 deduce 168:16 deem 86:13 defend 50:9

108:12 defined 239:14

240:12,16 definite67:13 definitely

165:19 166:11 229:19,20 definition

130:6 234:1 240:15 241:17 242:17 deflections

199:4 degradation

53:9 54:3,4,6 163:2 165:19 degree23:9 degrees

181:18 182:12 185:11 deLaski 2:8

5:3,3 38:11 41:5,9,14 42:21 43:6 44:2,5,11 51:12 58:12 59:17 65:9 66:2 67:1,5 70:5,16 72:22 73:16 74:4 76:21 78:6,9 89:10 89:13 103:20 104:5 110:14 110:20 deliverable

205:4 delivered

35:13 demand 138:6

138:7 Demmingxxx

161:13 demographic

11:9 demonstrate

155:1 demonstrated

118:7 denominator

233:7 department

60:3,9,13 64:17,19 65:5 66:2,20 76:5 depending

17:18 40:7 56:4 124:3 depends 126:4

135:8 155:17 184:13,20,20 Depot 197:10 depressure

32:21 deprived

231:11 derive231:14

232:14 derived 137:20

138:5 describe28:6

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 100:21 166:10 240:19 described

240:17 description

243:1 design 34:2

37:13 39:20 39:22 40:4 41:7,8 46:6 48:20,21 51:8 70:3,12 73:7 75:18 82:1,12,14 83:21 84:2 85:5 86:11 87:1,17,18 94:12,12,13 94:15 96:13 96:16,20 97:1,2,7 98:9 98:20 99:8 99:10,18 101:10,17 116:8 123:4 123:4,7,8 125:8,13 126:1 193:14 207:4 210:14 214:5,7 215:12,16,17 215:19 216:3 216:12 218:18 241:9 241:10 designed

85:19 137:10 215:9 216:7 218:2,5 designer

42:15 48:3 132:19 207:3 designing 75:3 182:12 designs39:15

40:6 84:5,15 88:10,11 96:8 119:12 119:13,14,15 119:18 134:18 137:14 despite 116:1 detail 20:22

23:11 27:9 135:10 143:21 details 169:3

206:16 determined

232:11 Detlef3:6 4:16

6:5 45:17 89:18 116:5 119:12 123:12 131:22 176:21 179:13 227:18,20 229:1 243:19 244:3 Detlef' 131:1 Detlef's 113:15 developing

25:4 development

40:21 device 135:1 Dick86:14

124:16 197:2 dictated 88:11 dictates 98:9 difference

14:14 15:14 36:7 38:20 39:20 52:14 53:8 62:17 82:11 105:5 105:7 108:3 108:19,22 109:7,21 114:12 120:5 120:13 129:1 145:22 154:5 171:4 209:3 222:20 223:11 224:17 231:18 233:12 236:10 differences

7:18,19 147:15 171:6 different 11:4

12:19 14:17 15:3,8 24:12 39:16,21 40:8 41:12 41:18 48:7 49:9,10,20 54:11 59:12 77:6 83:22 94:8 98:18 100:17 105:13 106:12 108:21 109:1 109:9,11 113:3 128:17 149:9 169:11 175:4 180:13 182:3 191:3 194:20 201:8 204:19 217:19 224:2 224:17 226:17,20 229:22 233:20,21 237:18 240:7 241:13 differentiate

203:20 differentiating

121:15 differs233:10 difficult32:3 diffuser86:2,4

86:9,19 87:5 96:10 98:4 99:8 104:12 134:15 135:2 135:4,5,7,12 135:15,18 136:5,12 137:7 212:15 219:1,1 237:7 diffusers

84:18,18 85:14,17,19 87:4,9,13,15 88:5 98:14 98:16,18 99:1,13,22 100:4 209:10 213:1,17,19 214:9,12 215:19,22 216:7,18 217:5,13,19 218:12 digested 44:13 digital 101:10

135:9 digits 184:15 dimension

199:18 diminishing

41:1,5 direct 101:10

135:9 direction 58:20 156:16 211:13 directory

188:10 dis 97:10 disadvantag...

30:17 disagree82:10 disclosing

89:3 discomfort

226:8 disconnect

37:20,21 163:15,22 189:2 discontinue

171:5 discount

12:16 95:20 146:3 169:19 170:1,13,15 170:21 171:14 222:22 229:17 233:20 discounting

146:1 discrepancy

229:18 discuss 10:11

119:2 179:9 245:6 discussed

10:20 20:21 28:7,8 29:8 29:11 35:3 119:8 123:3 200:21 211:18 discussing

115:9 discussion

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 63:1 89:20 100:16 160:21 203:2 203:3 208:3 209:14 215:12 discussions

120:14 191:13 disfavors

30:12 dishes214:20 dismiss 189:6 dispense

191:14 disperse85:15 disproportio...

30:14 dissimilars

57:3 distance

182:22 distinction

195:16 distinctive

102:18 distinguish

191:21 distribute

52:21 165:5 210:15 distributing

53:1 distribution

41:14 94:4,4 94:8 96:6 158:21 159:14 162:12 171:19 172:7 172:15 188:9 191:8 200:6 200:13,15 231:8 232:5 232:22 233:9 233:11,19 234:12 distributions

12:18 27:7 168:19 172:1 230:6 disturbing

41:10 diverge240:3 diversity49:5 divide231:17 divided231:19 division 11:11

13:22 46:21 divisions

13:21 docket243:14 document

60:20 63:13 110:1 doe4:8,13

5:12 6:1 8:6 20:13 57:19 59:6,20 61:6 61:12,16 62:1,3,7 63:19 64:14 64:15,20 65:2,7 69:9 74:2 76:20 77:7,9,11,13 80:8,18,21 81:1,17 82:4 82:15,19,20 83:1,4 116:6 130:6 152:6 179:4 DOE's63:11

65:4 doing 33:1

53:1,21 55:12 57:2 59:11 66:3 69:18 72:2 84:9 85:6 91:17 92:22 95:9 102:1 106:8 108:5 116:17 132:21 133:22 137:7 138:18,19 140:5 144:4 150:10 151:5 151:15 158:8 179:12 185:21 194:8 196:1,2 200:19 201:2 201:18 204:11 217:17 220:4 221:2 226:11 226:14 234:13 235:3 244:1,4,22 dollar 138:8 dollars 128:7

128:12 135:19 139:20 141:7 143:14 161:15 201:10,10,13 212:12 220:3 dominated

12:22 Donna 1:18

247:3,16 door 122:14 doors 193:19 Doppel 2:9

100:8 183:8 183:17 184:4 184:6 double34:15

34:17 50:9 75:6 92:11 157:22 165:15 207:14 doubles 91:12 downsize 33:2 downsizing

133:3 downstream

203:7 Dpppel 100:8 draft7:4 drain 182:4,5

183:22 186:15 drains 186:16 dramatic

35:15,17 dramatically

139:13 draw95:11 drawing 45:13

93:8,9 95:17 drip 191:9 drive 120:15

121:17 122:8 driven 118:8

125:18 146:9 driver90:6

157:1 drives 156:4 driving66:12 drop 17:18

30:21 31:1 50:6 95:15 118:15,19 153:19 203:14 205:1 212:22 215:10 245:14 drops203:5

206:8,19 drove 164:21 drum 186:16 dry57:3

159:20 dual 114:3,5

147:6 208:6 208:7 237:14 237:18 238:22 240:20 duck208:7 duct208:6

210:14 211:12 237:14,19 238:8,22 240:21 ducted 237:21

238:1 ducting

237:19,19 ducts241:2 ductwork86:3

99:1 196:9 238:2 due53:7,19

173:22 dump 186:18 dumping 87:2 durability

151:13 durable 154:2

193:3 during 80:13

90:11 176:9 181:17 DVC 135:21 E E2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1,1 133:2 e-mail 180:3

224:12 e-mailed 243:9 E452:3

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 95:7 134:16 138:14 150:6 171:17 186:7 easier 18:2

154:12 236:7 easily 141:22

232:13 easy 18:1

130:20 132:6 169:12 eaten 185:2 economic

102:15 213:21 economically

213:22 economize

23:8 economizer

124:21 165:7 209:4 economizers

208:21 economy

185:12 edges4:11

65:17,20 Edward 2:2 EEER40:8 EEI 137:21 EEO 14:3 EER58:1

59:19 61:16 64:17,21,22 70:6 72:20 73:12 74:3 74:14,20 76:1 77:14 79:2 82:3,8 82:13 240:7 effect29:7

35:17 44:8 54:12,18 55:6 56:18 67:11 70:3,3 70:7 81:18 143:9 210:15 effective70:14

70:16 87:8 137:17 138:4 157:19 effectively

91:2 94:14 157:2,22 effectiveness

231:4,10 232:18 efficiencies

94:5 97:5 119:7 efficiency 19:6

19:18 29:15 33:4 37:11 37:12,16,17 45:10 49:22 50:1 59:21 66:18 70:4 70:15 72:19 83:17,22 84:1,2,5,9 85:10 90:15 94:4 96:11 96:22 97:4 98:1 103:2,2 103:4,16 109:4 114:22 117:4 118:9 118:10,21 120:16 121:10 127:7 128:10,11 131:22 137:13 139:18 141:19 147:11,13 150:9 160:8 171:19,19 172:7,8,15 173:11,15 174:12 175:10,14 180:17 184:13 188:9 190:13 198:20 199:15 223:9 230:5 231:4 231:10 232:13,14 efficient37:2

90:16 118:6 142:4 223:16 effort 10:2 EIA20:14 EIA's22:10 eight 171:8 Eileen 2:10 5:8

23:14 either30:21

32:16 45:2 84:16 87:17 134:7 166:11 222:20 EL6:9 7:4

30:12,18 31:11 36:19 39:11 45:22 45:22 46:16 47:2,8,10 48:6,21 51:6 51:10,14,15 86:21 117:11 218:6 237:2 239:5 EL's 134:17

140:21 223:6 EL0 113:17 EL1 6:8 7:1

36:8 94:16 114:11 EL2 36:9 52:5 84:9 114:15 122:12 133:2 EL329:9,15

33:5 36:10 38:20 49:9 85:2 87:16 132:15 133:3 133:11 191:15 200:1 EL3's 133:9 EL3.5 38:20,20 EL46:18 7:6

7:10,11,15 35:14,21 85:11 87:21 99:15 100:1 217:15 237:5 237:6 EL57:16 35:14

36:5 85:17 102:12 elbow211:11

211:13,13 electrical

181:21 electrician

107:2,5,13 107:15 electricity

13:10,13 elements 65:1 elevation

62:16,17 74:17 else21:19

86:14 88:13 127:9 163:12 209:6 230:9 234:21 243:7 else's 162:5 embedded

31:19 embraced

65:7 emerged 65:14 Emerson 4:18 Emily3:16

5:16 245:11 emphasize

87:21 97:14 103:7 employed

247:10 enable68:16 encounters

151:3 encourages

245:20 end 11:7 13:18

32:11 42:4 52:1 61:17 68:5 72:1 94:1 95:2 103:1 122:2 123:22 128:1 129:10 145:12,13 162:15 173:1 186:1 212:14 224:3 239:10 245:21 ended 8:12 energies 174:1 energy4:8

10:5,10,14 10:15 11:8 12:2 14:7 24:14 29:6 29:15,19,21 30:8 34:7,19 34:20 36:3 36:14,20 37:5,8,11,16 37:20,22 38:4,7,10,16 38:18 39:1 40:13,19

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 42:2,4 43:10 44:21,21,22 45:5,5,6,7 46:19,21,22 47:4,9,12 48:22 49:5 51:3,3,19 52:18 53:9 53:11,17,17 54:8,13 76:5 77:12 83:15 95:8 115:11 119:19 136:16 137:17,19,20 138:5 171:19 173:20,21 176:1 189:14 190:6 197:20 202:15 236:20 237:3 239:1 242:15 244:11,12 energy/build...

209:6 enforce75:5

77:19 enforcement

78:5 82:4 engine 163:10 engineer

42:14 engineering

34:8 40:4 43:22 83:15 83:21 84:10 96:9 102:3 104:19 105:11 106:15 119:20 134:21 136:9 141:1 175:22 176:22 206:2 206:5 208:1 244:2 engineers

87:18 England 25:14

25:15,20 enormously

146:11 242:12 enough 9:17

14:21 26:6,7 26:10 33:1 59:2 73:6 85:14 87:4 93:22 143:3 179:21 182:22 187:4 220:3 244:8 entail 198:2 entire 117:12 entirely71:20 envelope

19:17 EPA42:6 equal 21:19

91:20 225:2 equipment

11:18 19:4,6 19:18 34:20 42:15,15 46:21 66:19 82:1,2 84:20 84:20 85:3 90:12,16 91:3,12,15 92:9,12 96:8 96:12,16,17 96:20 97:7 98:9 99:18 101:17,21,22 102:6 103:7 103:14,17,18 104:3,18,19 106:19 108:7 109:4 112:7 112:12,20,22 114:12 115:17,18,19 117:10,20 118:13 125:12 127:5 127:7 128:10 128:18 129:16 138:15,19 143:13 144:7 147:10 152:7 152:9,19,22 153:2,4 154:19 155:9 160:13 161:3 162:4 164:4 170:5 182:7 197:17 212:14 217:11 223:15 238:15 240:11,17 equipment's

144:9 equity 170:7 Er240:7 Eric3:2 error34:22 ESB 34:8 ESP28:22

29:3 45:19 Especially

52:3 ESPs28:21 essentially

11:2 12:4 14:12,14 20:9 24:18 26:11 30:12 34:2 54:8 55:2 58:15 68:6 105:18 155:17 168:13,17 191:7 215:13 establish

139:4 estimate 15:12

15:12 19:16 28:15,18 33:19 119:22 144:15 152:1 158:10 188:5 estimated

151:21 et 11:19

149:10 evaluating

116:6 evap 141:13

219:22 evaporator

140:19 141:1 141:3,22 206:11 evenly53:1 eventually

152:10 ever 12:11

165:15 169:3 184:21 218:1 every9:6,16

31:20 48:6 69:19 97:5 123:21 151:4 151:7 162:22 184:18 185:16 208:13 216:5 234:8,9,9 everybody

90:1 246:2 everyone4:2

22:14 59:8 69:6 71:3 179:1 192:10 231:2 244:13 everyone's

67:10,16 everything8:9

25:11 58:10 58:14,16 81:17 117:17 163:11 175:21 193:20 210:20 222:11 232:11 241:9 ex-trapping

169:6 exact99:17

152:8 229:21 exactly30:4

63:9 96:8 104:7 127:11 135:11 example 12:22

32:20 36:2 52:16 101:10 140:7 181:21 232:19 except42:3

80:5 127:6 197:3 210:13 exceptional

162:10 exchanger

147:22 148:2 148:15 179:18 185:19 exchangers

6:19 excluding

149:11 exclusively

13:6 Excuse 180:6

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 exercise 54:21 existing 40:6

85:13 132:16 133:1 expand 242:11 expansion

201:6 expect55:17

81:5 178:1 243:20 244:14 expectation

53:10 expectations

243:21 expected

12:21 expects

177:17 expensive

84:21 86:4 111:16 120:20 121:9 121:11,15 122:9 145:7 146:18 164:4 164:10 experience

163:16 experienced

132:20 experiencing

175:18 expertise

211:20 explain 41:12

56:10 85:6,8 155:22 156:13,17 explaining

115:13 explanation

210:8 234:22 exponential 201:7 expressing

42:3 extend 157:16

158:17 extending

91:8 extent71:21

149:13 161:9 226:16 external 28:16

29:22 30:10 37:10 38:13 44:7 54:16 174:2 205:22 208:17 extra 127:6 extrapolate

169:4 extrapolating

169:5,7 extreme

128:22 134:20,20 F fabricated

89:16 face 142:11 facetious

50:13 facilitate 184:2 fact21:20 24:1

49:11 83:4 96:3 128:8 166:3 factor 18:20 19:12 30:15 30:17 34:22 35:11 52:13 53:4,9,14,15 53:16,18 54:2,4,4,7 55:1 56:1 133:12 174:14 210:3 factored 196:4 factories 119:7 factors 15:5 18:4,10 26:22 28:8 35:6 161:14 factually22:17 Fahrenheit

181:18 fail 150:2 186:7 failure 167:11 failures 145:12 fair9:8,14,17

9:21 67:15 177:4,5,7 fairly20:1 59:2 122:10 169:12 fairness 58:12 falling 163:12 familiar 11:7

86:12 95:22 170:2 fan 28:9,12,15

28:18 29:4 29:13,20 30:8 34:5,7 34:10,20 36:8,11 38:3 38:18,19,21 39:1,21 44:21 45:4,6 45:7,15,21 46:7,9,12 47:9,11 49:9 50:6 51:2 52:1,6 56:17 56:20 113:12 120:2 148:18 149:1 174:3 236:16,21,22 237:1 fancy 107:20 fans6:20

40:10 46:6,7 47:13 81:13 81:14 144:22 149:9,10 154:2 239:6 239:7 far28:21 36:18

62:12 129:6 182:21 193:10 204:2 206:4 210:20 211:19 favorite30:2 feature 116:4 116:8 121:12 features 11:9 11:14,18 12:5 federal 4:12,14

66:21 70:8 72:19 73:12 73:13,18,19 76:6 77:17 78:11 federally75:21 feedback 122:8 126:16 128:1 feeds 10:15 feel 69:8,20

70:1 146:20 169:9,12 170:7 211:17 233:8 245:1 feeling 177:7

225:5,6 feels 71:21 feet 15:21 122:2 felt 15:12 27:16 127:16 field 45:19

49:3 137:2 fielding 10:8 fields 11:20,22 13:9,19 15:8 figure 19:8

32:17 43:12 153:14 179:5 191:7 199:21 200:3,12,17 201:22 figuring 150:1 155:20 200:9 file 109:16 fill 26:8,10 filled 166:15 filter27:10 140:16 141:18 219:6 filtered 27:13

27:15 filters 140:9,10 140:15,20 141:6,14,15 141:19 142:3 142:22 final 8:22 43:8

58:7 61:4,12 63:11,12,15 63:18,20 68:8 73:10 73:11,17 74:14 75:10 75:13 76:19 81:22 93:18 finalize 124:7 124:9,9 finalized 81:4 finalizing 68:8 financial

247:11 find 31:17 47:8

59:15 77:9

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 77:17,20 116:3 122:7 122:9 144:21 152:13 173:16 218:17 231:5 finding47:17 fine65:19 72:1 132:11 149:13 217:13 218:20 225:14 227:16 finish 177:14 179:2 finishes213:8 firm 211:20 first4:5 14:8

26:1 77:8 83:20 87:4 104:1 106:14 114:7 125:18 154:21 159:11 164:10,17 165:10 170:4 173:4,17 175:10 176:16,17 179:3,7 205:6 217:14 231:12,20 first-cost 118:7 first-order 12:1 fit33:4 143:18 151:17 200:2 239:8 fits238:11 fitted207:14 fitting207:10 five54:1 84:20 85:11 99:1 104:22 145:1 146:3 148:19 161:22 175:10 197:18 205:2 228:3 229:14 229:14 242:22 fix21:1 42:11

50:19 55:14 fixed 36:15

42:13 126:22 flag 12:8 flat48:9 167:9 flattened 162:17 floor 11:15 12:7 14:3,17 14:18 15:6 15:13 16:19 16:22 18:9 floors 11:16 flow44:11

85:12,12 86:18 87:9 87:10 98:6 98:16 99:5 100:2,6 113:9 125:9 125:10 190:9 203:19 216:16 218:1 fly 185:6 FMCS5:8 focus25:11 focusing

23:10 174:21 folks4:8 51:7

56:2 66:6 68:14 124:5 140:5 follow59:7

80:18 81:1 206:20 234:21 followed 82:5 following 43:2

78:19 foot237:11 footage30:4 134:1 140:11 220:8 footnote27:10

64:11 footprint 190:18 forecast 18:1 102:15 139:10 227:6 forecasting 189:3 foregoing

247:4,5 foreshadowi... 160:21 forget75:8 135:17 152:8 Forgo220:1 forgot 152:6 form 189:5,11 191:12 formal 67:22 formally65:5 formed 193:18 formula53:12 166:19,21 formulation 146:9 forth 95:20

96:10 forthcoming

94:21,22 forward 17:2

26:21 31:9 32:11 43:9 60:2 65:21 66:14 67:13 67:19 72:2,2 72:13 80:9 123:4 124:1 161:18 176:7 177:20 180:5 found47:5 186:8 222:9 four7:5 14:2,5

26:2 49:8 84:20 85:10 96:19 99:1 137:13 142:21 145:1 149:1 185:16 193:5 202:22 four-year

221:9 fraction 32:2,4

93:18 97:18 133:11 157:22 158:15 181:3 187:17 framed 58:10 Francisco

134:22 freezes 182:12 friendly233:5 front68:13 145:12 153:16,22 full 19:15 56:3 161:12 200:20 fully 13:12

25:10 44:13 53:12 55:22 191:20 240:16 fun 185:9 function 90:14 103:16 104:18 132:2 132:3 fundamentally 46:15 furnace81:13

81:14 170:14 171:2 180:8 181:16 189:3 189:14 190:3 furnaces 179:15 180:7 180:8,10,12 189:18,21 further 151:18 197:15 furthest96:11 future 16:11

22:5,7 33:10 102:19 139:8 139:10 169:20 173:1 220:7 G G 4:1 gag 233:3 gain 118:8,9 garages238:9 gate210:20

211:3 gather203:4 gave51:7

105:2 gee 192:4 general 16:2

89:6 98:14 159:8 164:14 164:15 197:14 237:11 generalized

10:8 11:1,21 12:4,14,20 24:11,22 88:20 95:7 95:12,17

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 96:4 97:15 generally

98:20 167:10 173:15 174:10 212:1 generate

14:10 29:20 generated

29:4 Georgia

183:20 184:4 184:6 getting29:6

36:15 102:2 107:14 111:19 128:1 130:13 134:22 142:19 143:20 144:6 145:2 146:5 146:12 150:7 152:4 159:2 165:10 169:13 176:13 179:2 184:16 222:16 226:10 244:7 give 10:8 14:8

24:11 41:20 42:1 43:19 48:4 55:6 60:19 78:2,5 81:1 91:20 131:3 166:8 210:16 225:2 227:19 231:22 232:1 given 12:13

14:13 52:19 98:21 122:20 125:11 133:1 200:3 225:19 givenxxx 119:21 gives26:11,22

53:4,15 81:7 giving66:21

81:17 151:13 glaring 179:8 go4:6,10,10

6:2,3 9:13 10:6 12:21 18:3 29:15 30:11 34:9 34:11 36:5 36:12,17,19 37:1,1 40:12 43:5 45:1,6 46:20 47:1,1 49:15,16 52:3,5 54:21 58:13,14,20 60:5 66:4,8 68:18 70:3,5 70:20 71:6 71:17,19 72:9 74:1 77:8,11,19 77:22 79:7 85:13,16 86:22 87:16 88:14 96:20 96:21 98:11 98:22 99:2,5 104:17,22 105:10,18 107:17 111:10 114:11 117:11 121:16 122:22 124:19,22 125:9 126:10 126:14 127:20 132:15 133:11 136:19 137:6 141:14 142:16 144:1 145:1 147:9 147:10,22 148:3,5 152:13,21 154:10 157:1 159:7 163:11 163:13 165:4 165:6,18 171:21 176:2 179:4,6 182:21 185:8 188:12 194:13 196:7 196:7,10,11 198:19 201:7 202:16,19 209:3,7 212:21 213:1 214:19 216:6 217:12 221:5 223:9,13,16 235:17 236:6 236:15,16 239:4,7 go-forward

8:10 goes 13:3

34:10,11 54:5 70:7 75:9 96:17 97:1,3 114:18 115:5 119:4 124:17 129:11 130:21 135:21 152:7 162:17 166:20 172:5 175:8 176:21 182:14 193:13 201:7 217:13 220:8 going4:8 9:4

10:4,6,7,10 20:14 22:11 24:8 30:11 30:19 31:5 31:12 32:4 32:11 36:20 41:17 43:6 50:19,22 51:10 52:14 52:16 53:22 53:22 54:11 54:20 56:2 56:21 59:12 60:13,20,22 63:4 65:11 66:8,20 67:10 68:9 68:10,22 69:17 70:22 71:2,10,10 76:2 79:6 81:17 82:12 82:17,20 85:8 86:19 89:8,19 91:8 94:21 97:12 98:11 101:20 102:19 107:17 109:2 109:22 111:6 111:7 112:16 113:4,5 117:15 118:10,12 119:6 124:14 125:6,8 126:11 133:2 133:3,10 134:14 136:11 137:16 138:12 139:6 141:19 142:20 143:8 145:1 148:3 150:2 154:9 159:8 160:1 161:16 163:11,16 165:2,14,15 167:2 171:3 171:13 173:1 174:8 175:5 175:6,14 176:7 177:15 177:22 178:7 178:9 179:4 179:19 183:8 184:22 185:13,14 186:2,6,15 187:21 188:4 188:21 193:10 197:1 198:15,16 199:17 203:12,13 208:19 213:16 217:5 217:18,19 218:5 221:4 222:20 223:5 223:10 225:20,21 226:1,2 229:7,20 233:17,17 235:10,11,12 235:19,20,20 237:14 242:7 242:8 243:13 244:4,8,20 244:22 gone 12:14

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 36:4 60:9 91:5 140:10 140:11,16 173:14,19,21 174:8 175:11 gonna 15:1

16:7 21:1,17 22:12 39:2 40:8 42:11 48:12 55:10 55:14 59:4 60:1 75:4,18 81:2,8 89:1,4 89:10 90:10 108:21 109:10 115:22 116:2 121:15 122:7 125:21 141:7 141:11,14 148:18 151:4 159:10 163:13,13 166:8 182:13 194:9 201:2 205:8 211:10 222:15 239:7 239:19 242:2 good4:2 7:21

9:20 22:10 22:13 37:15 41:21 43:17 46:17 57:5 57:14 88:19 93:22 125:15 125:22 126:3 149:16 159:12 167:18 176:4 180:15 182:14 210:10 215:14 225:15 227:4 227:7 228:1 228:18 229:15 230:9 230:9 240:15 Goodman 4:22

171:1 got8:10 22:10

35:13 45:20 45:21,22 46:1 88:19 108:9,10 111:4 120:9 124:19 128:15 134:6 136:5 148:22 150:22 157:17 158:18 160:15 168:22 178:2 188:17 195:10 202:22 216:20 227:15 229:15 238:8 gotten 94:6

117:14 140:20 161:15 government

178:7 grade 193:2,20 Granger93:15

150:8 Grangerxxx

93:10 granular

130:12,13 granularity

160:12 graphs 192:1

192:3 great20:21 45:14 88:18 124:11 242:11 greater30:6 greatest62:2

65:15,18 Greg 2:18 5:10

9:15 10:18 21:4 35:9 83:10 92:19 103:21 116:15,22 129:4 157:12 167:19 177:1 187:17 189:4 208:4 219:8 230:12 233:2 244:16 ground43:7

62:18 106:1 group 1:5 5:16

28:7 62:20 62:21 67:15 71:1,21 72:14 80:8 82:22 83:2 88:17 127:19 130:7 141:16 176:5 224:4 group's62:22 groups86:17

124:10 guess 7:19

10:6 13:19 16:2,7 43:17 48:5 54:9 63:7 78:19 78:19 109:5 113:14 115:21 120:6 123:5 130:2 131:19 132:12 156:13 161:7 162:19 166:14 177:6 181:2,4,4,19 185:10 197:12,16,16 198:8 203:2 213:2 216:19 223:3 226:3 235:18 243:22 244:1 245:9 guessing

16:22 guesstimate

211:8 guide 140:19 gun 150:21 gut211:17 guy 107:21

142:20 163:18 164:5 164:11 210:9 guys8:7 67:5

74:4 203:20 210:16 211:22 220:4 227:14 232:17 241:21 H half27:14,17

28:2 29:1 34:8 35:6,14 43:20 45:21 46:4 96:14 98:5 102:7 102:12,13 104:21 105:3 105:8,12 111:3,7 113:8 114:9 114:13 120:4 130:3,14 149:3 158:2 165:11 170:19 171:9 175:7 196:4 199:22 223:15 225:8 244:6 hand 70:5,5

216:6 handle88:19

108:22 231:2 handler27:6 handlers

109:1 200:14 handling

11:19 12:8 98:21 hands71:4,9 hang 205:17 happen 39:4

60:19 68:20 87:2 110:13 156:10 159:10 169:4 183:8 214:2 happened

127:17 137:8 137:9 165:5 173:3,6 happening

190:9 221:7 happens

184:12,19 185:16 187:8 205:10 217:15 happy60:19

243:3 hard 99:3,4

105:19 116:3 124:1 149:15 166:5 194:19 216:13 harder32:16

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 hardly58:16

175:16 harping 34:14 Harvey2:19

5:5 15:18 17:12 32:19 42:9 43:9 49:16 55:18 92:19 111:9 112:5 127:3 127:11 132:18 142:18 160:20 161:6 177:6 189:4 191:5,19 204:5 215:11 219:10 233:2 242:3 has 15:9 29:3

29:8,10,12 33:15 36:3 38:21 41:19 42:6 43:14 44:6 46:20 47:7,20,22 58:8 61:7,10 64:17,19 66:2,7 73:14 77:13 78:22 79:14 80:18 80:20 81:1 91:13 99:11 102:5 106:11 107:16 112:9 120:6,8 122:1,2,14 127:1 148:3 148:5 152:22 154:3 162:22 166:9 167:20 173:14,21 174:4,6 175:15 181:19 192:20 193:4 195:11 204:14 209:7 212:9 213:2 213:5 215:7 216:10 218:8 224:10 230:22 238:2 243:7 Hasn't4:3 hat20:14 hate6:3 haven't38:21

44:13 51:8 94:6 117:14 138:10 139:12 173:19 189:8 having36:7

44:8 47:17 55:1 151:6 155:20 161:10 174:13 183:16 203:3 208:13 216:13 he'll 179:16,21 head 16:7

155:11 190:1 headings

103:21 hear 109:15

126:14 131:5 217:17 heard 84:22

120:14 126:17 196:18 212:7 212:13 226:8 hearing 43:10

221:3 245:22 heartburn 112:3 heat6:19

52:19 53:4,6 54:14 147:22 148:2,14 170:18 179:18 181:21 182:13 185:15,19 241:2 heaters 81:9 heating 11:18

28:13 46:13 215:5 237:1 237:19 241:2 heavier 105:4

110:10 154:3 heavy193:20

193:21 195:6 226:14 heck 196:13 Height 190:20 held 67:9

239:16,16 helicopter

105:13 help 16:1 69:1

69:4 88:21 124:2,15 201:22 helpful 195:4

205:16 helps 101:16 her226:15

245:20 here6:4,18,19

16:17 20:16 21:6 36:3,3 44:8 47:7 48:13 49:10 50:3,10,19 51:6 52:8,15 56:2,8 60:8,9 60:14 64:10 67:7 71:17 80:5 84:7 88:3,4 90:20 92:3 94:7,7 96:2 99:15 102:9,14 104:11 108:11,12 109:15,22 119:13,13 128:18 135:10,12 137:22 138:11,13 139:8,17 140:3 143:14 160:12,12 169:22 170:3 172:19,22 173:4 174:6 174:9,20 175:2,3,14 176:5 178:2 179:6 180:17 181:1 184:15 189:14,17,19 201:15 204:1 212:17 215:12,17 228:12 229:5 239:15 241:16 242:2 here's 37:3

68:10,10,11 hereby247:5 hey 152:15 hi 35:9 201:5 high 45:20

48:6 136:6 141:19 143:5 146:13 168:7 195:13 higher22:19 28:22 29:9 30:8,12,17 33:4 37:5,11 37:16 39:2 44:15 45:15 46:16 54:17 90:15 106:7 106:16 109:3 109:3 117:11 117:18,21 118:21 127:7 129:7 161:15 174:2 183:11 199:15 202:17 211:18 214:21 237:2 239:5 highlight8:2,5 highlights

13:20 highly 17:16

23:4 hire 106:10

174:4 historical

151:16 history 162:2

166:22 hit29:9 121:19

130:15 147:15 hits223:6 Hoffman 2:10

5:8,8 23:14 23:15,18 72:15 109:15 hold 170:6

177:9 240:6 holding 71:9 holdings

170:6 holes26:8 home 105:19

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 165:12 176:8 197:10 243:16 honest223:12 hood 142:21 Hootman 2:11

5:2,2 21:21 22:3,3 38:9 39:12,18 40:1,3,9,20 41:2 42:20 43:5,22 45:3 46:4,6,10 47:14 48:2 48:16 49:7 52:8 56:15 57:1,6,7 59:3 61:9,21 62:12 63:2 69:10 74:8 74:11 75:13 76:14 79:22 81:13 88:22 89:7,12 93:13 105:6 105:10 106:2 106:6,13 107:2,7,14 108:1 109:12 109:16 110:9 110:19 111:15,19 113:19 120:18 121:7 121:14 126:2 126:15 127:12 129:8 129:12 130:4 130:6,9,13 131:3,6 136:15,20 137:3 140:9 140:16 141:5 141:11,17 142:7,10 143:4,10,15 144:1,11,13 144:21 145:6 145:10,14 146:14 147:1 148:9,16,22 150:12 151:8 151:12 153:15 154:1 154:8,14,20 155:12,20 156:6 159:10 159:17 160:3 161:20 162:6 162:9,16,19 163:4,9 166:18 167:12,14,17 172:21 177:5 178:12 180:2 180:9,13,16 182:11,20 184:8,12,20 185:7,17 186:2,16,20 187:2,10,14 188:3,6,13 188:17 189:19 190:20 191:10 192:13,18 194:3,6,22 195:5,8,17 196:6,16 197:3,7 198:4,12 199:1,7 201:5,19 204:13,18 209:18,21 213:5,9,14 213:18 218:2 219:18 220:2 220:6,12,19 221:4,22 222:21 224:6 225:14,18 226:5 227:3 227:12 228:1 236:8,13 237:16 238:13,16,18 239:4,21 241:1,6,14 242:1,8 243:11 245:7 hope43:8 96:1

101:16 hopefully

83:12 96:7 172:18 226:9 hoping 123:20

134:8 203:4 horizontal

71:5 horsepower

113:13 host204:7 hot57:4 hour52:19

53:12 138:9 hourly52:18 hours34:4

46:13,14 53:5 202:18 however 121:8

210:8 226:17 HR 130:3

166:2 188:10 199:13 240:6 HRI 241:17

243:2 Huang2:12 huge55:17

57:2,3 118:15,19 143:8 145:17 157:21 humid 57:4 hundred 11:20

20:18 21:2 21:10 34:12 40:15 99:3 100:11 133:12,15 143:11 194:18,18 237:11 hundreds

141:7 143:11 Hunt2:13 5:7

5:7 41:22 71:5 126:8 180:6,10,15 180:18 188:18 230:8 235:10,15 236:1 hurt 174:14 HV/AC60:4

107:15 I I'd 7:19 23:10

112:6 132:11 177:9 178:4 210:4 222:14 242:4,9,16 I'll 6:1 9:18

38:6 40:11 60:7 68:3 90:2 105:18 105:19 112:2 123:17 149:6 152:13 160:5 171:11,15,15 180:5 204:2 205:18 207:14 208:9 209:17 211:1 211:6,20 220:20 223:12,13,16 229:19 I-beams

195:12 iced 241:7 idea28:1

89:13 94:20 166:18,19 187:15 211:20 ideal 211:12 ideas 88:20 IEER 37:5,6

40:14,18 43:7 46:16 50:17 51:19 51:22 58:1 58:11,19 59:9 60:4,12 60:15 61:10 61:17 62:6 62:11 64:16 64:20 65:1,3 65:5,15,22 67:11,18,18 67:22 68:16 68:22 69:7 69:15 71:2,8 71:21 72:4 73:7,13 75:8 75:11 76:1,5 76:9 77:7,10 77:10,12,16 77:17 78:4 78:22 79:2,4 79:15,19 81:20 82:8 82:10,13 103:5 115:6 132:3 IER42:12 43:3

59:13

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 ignore51:11

53:7 166:6 illustrates

96:7 imagine

143:10 192:11 207:19 impact 10:16

21:15 44:9 55:17 139:21 223:6 impacted

174:13,20 180:7 impacts

179:20 implement

32:1,3 implemented

10:21 implications

203:9 implicit20:19 important

34:18 37:9 69:16 74:18 81:15 82:5 82:16 84:8,8 99:15 123:19 208:14 210:3 221:14 242:14 245:1 importantly

235:4 impossible

81:11 improvement

21:8 42:13 169:15 improvements

19:4,5 20:2 20:18 38:21 38:22 45:10 49:10 improving

38:19 45:1 115:3 in-between

8:11 193:19 236:8 inactivity

13:11 inappropriate

27:16 inaudible76:6 inches 193:5

193:14 210:20 incidence

31:10 include 11:15

37:19 90:4 99:20 100:5 104:12,13,13 117:21 135:20 140:14 154:7 157:12 218:9 221:18 237:7 included 91:1

119:10 204:4 includes 71:20

145:4,6 221:20 223:14 233:19 including

158:14 inclusion

156:20 incorporate

245:4 incorporated

101:3 incorporating

85:2 increase29:13 45:5 51:2,3 53:19 103:18 141:2 142:1 142:5 174:17 174:19 179:18 219:21 231:13 236:19 increased

141:13 174:6 increases 34:7

110:2 increasing

114:21 128:8 219:6 incremental

196:20 236:5 incumbent

209:19 incurring

173:12 174:22 independent

46:8 49:21 independently

45:9 index 102:17 indicated

80:20 155:3 indicates

148:6 162:14 indicating

44:15 indication

120:1 individual

132:4 indoor6:19

45:21 industrial

154:4 192:6 192:19,19 193:3,13 194:5,12,13 194:15 196:7 198:19 202:5 industrials

196:11 industry65:6

65:17,17 94:20 115:15 117:22 178:10 229:2 237:18 241:7 ineffective

80:21 inexpensive

120:15,18 infiltration

57:4 influence

156:3 influenced

13:12 influences

13:10,11 155:16 inform 94:7 informal 8:7

86:17 information

10:9 11:17 12:3,16 14:15,21 19:21 24:17 57:22 86:13 88:19 89:4 119:21,22 132:3 137:21 137:21 147:3 155:4,15 161:2,12 163:8 166:17 168:21 176:14 179:4 179:7,9 181:7 187:22 189:11 191:17 200:16 202:7 203:4,7 206:7 211:9 213:6 232:9 inherent50:2

133:7 147:18 initial 122:7 ink214:12 inlet211:14 input28:14

88:4,4,5,7 89:21 90:21 94:6,18,18 108:15 130:22 163:6 181:5,14 203:8,10 inputs 14:14

83:16 95:14 176:2 inside 148:4

183:12 186:6 186:8,12,14 199:22 237:22 238:6 241:11 install 112:8

128:9 145:18 159:7 installation

24:12 93:6 101:22 103:9 103:15,19 104:4,17 106:2,21,22 112:13,15 126:21 127:1 128:9,19 138:15 139:1 185:20 203:9 203:22 209:12

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 installations

181:16 185:21 installed 84:13

93:2,3 101:21 103:3 103:4,11 104:2,3,6 136:2,6,7 173:8,13 175:8 231:13 231:13,19 installing

104:15 106:9 instance

230:13 instead 28:17

48:8 91:19 165:9 188:10 insulation

193:18 214:1 integral

113:13 integrating

227:9 intended

115:13 intending

208:10 intensive49:1 intent 191:12

199:17 234:18 interacting

190:7 interest

247:11 interested

50:20 interesting

59:15 83:12 84:7 144:21 interim 236:11 internal 13:17 19:4 145:8 228:19 229:4 237:22 241:4 internally

109:18 internet 110:8 interpret 127:4 interrogatory

168:20 into 10:16 12:3

12:14 13:22 43:8 57:13 70:3,7 82:7 84:15 85:15 87:5 90:5,13 91:1 94:13 95:14 96:9 96:17,20,21 97:2,3 98:15 101:4,17 102:5 112:2 117:14 123:7 125:9 130:21 134:18 137:14 139:7 139:10 143:21 144:1 150:18 159:22 166:20 171:2 171:12,15 172:5 173:1 176:2 187:21 193:20 198:13,19 200:6 201:7 201:14 202:7 203:2,21 204:10,12 209:7,16,22 212:8 216:7 219:6 221:5 226:10 227:9 229:19 231:17 236:2 238:3 239:4 240:13 introduced

161:10,13 introducing

28:21 investigate

56:11 investigating

190:11 investing

227:5 involve 140:6 involved90:1

127:7 161:17 201:11,12 203:8 IOU 5:7 ir 154:15 ire45:8 irrelevant65:4 ISCAxxx

171:20 isn't41:5 42:7

48:12 56:17 66:10 73:4 86:19 156:6 159:6 186:11 215:17 issue20:22

21:17 35:5 42:12 48:13 49:2,19 50:12 51:21 51:22 52:13 52:15 76:19 80:17 81:10 88:5 147:18 168:10 182:3 186:4,5,9 202:21 237:13 issued 57:22 issues28:8 48:1 119:7 124:11 148:18 176:17 177:1 190:3 200:22 204:7 item 28:6

121:13 149:11 188:8 201:15 212:6 items 10:7

148:14 205:6 iteration 234:8

234:9 iterations

234:10 J James2:3 5:9

6:21 8:17 101:15 115:9 131:22 243:19 244:3 January75:7 Javier4:14

123:21 Jess 160:7 jibe 111:8 jibes33:10 Jill 2:11 5:2

22:3 61:4 127:12 141:5 150:12 162:7 187:21 192:4 219:16 226:14 240:17 John 2:4 4:13

5:18,20 8:6 10:3 20:13 21:21 22:3 59:4 230:22 230:22 235:6 join 129:5 joint 152:12 JP 197:3 jump40:14

67:14 79:5 187:16 191:2 198:4 199:19 jumped40:17

40:17 jumping 150:20 June21:18

42:12,18 justification

213:21 justified

213:22 K Karen 2:16

4:20 66:12 69:8 71:16 72:16 103:1 114:10 117:5 120:4 140:1 147:4 Karen's58:12 Katie2:6 5:11

15:18 21:7 44:14 95:6 151:18,19 155:5 166:3 177:2 243:19 Katie's227:10 keep 99:10

111:21 118:11,12 122:15 164:18 242:7 242:8 key 139:17

190:12 kidding 229:11

229:11

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 Kido5:12,12

57:19,19 kilowatt 138:9 kind 14:22

27:19 29:7 29:14 32:21 44:18 54:15 55:2 56:10 57:7,22 120:2 126:15 134:6 141:19 153:12 156:18 161:8 166:1,16 169:4 182:6 195:12,13 198:8 201:1 210:22 213:4 225:17 226:15 237:11 239:21,22 240:2 241:10 kinds 93:11

136:10 153:8 kit34:4 knock224:22

225:1 know6:10

7:12 8:12 16:6 17:21 17:22 21:3,7 21:12 22:1 22:10,15 23:7,7 29:17 30:2,4,11 33:7,10 34:13 35:11 35:20 36:12 40:2,15 41:11,13,16 42:22 45:20 47:6 49:3 51:6,20 54:10,13 55:7 56:9 59:4,14,19 59:20 65:9 65:17 66:19 67:8,9,12 68:6,13 69:22 70:10 70:11 72:7 74:1 80:10 81:10 82:7 82:11,14,17 82:18 84:7 86:2,10 87:1 87:10,14 88:7,8 90:9 90:15 93:5 93:12,16 94:20 96:15 101:16,20 102:14 103:17 108:12 109:12,22 110:12 111:3 111:4 112:3 114:21 115:9 117:16 118:10,20 120:13,15 121:8,11,11 121:12 122:6 122:7 124:13 129:4,18 130:7,11 132:1 134:5 134:9,12 135:9,11,11 137:19 141:6 141:14 142:3 143:5,14,16 145:15 146:2 147:15 148:16 149:1 154:9 155:2 155:10,10 156:22 157:20 160:7 162:11 165:1 166:5,7 167:1,1,8,20 168:17,18 170:4,6 173:4,6 176:3 177:11 178:1 179:17 180:8 181:17 182:1 191:4 191:15 192:15 193:6 193:18,19,20 194:6,6,9,16 195:13 196:11,22 197:2 198:21 198:22 199:18,19 200:7,13,20 202:19 203:6 203:8 204:9 206:8,15,16 206:18,19 207:3,5 209:2,13 211:4,6 212:16 213:2 214:6 215:1 215:6 218:14 218:17 222:1 222:10 223:10 224:1 225:18 227:14 230:16 231:3 232:4,19 233:10 236:9 238:6,7 239:14,14 240:1 241:18 243:6 knowing 159:9 knows 64:8

169:16 244:13 KW 138:8 L l 172:14 223:4 labor92:21

93:8,15,18 93:18 126:22 134:22 146:10 150:6 164:3 labs 86:22 lady221:10 large 11:3 23:9

51:2 52:14 105:16 120:1 130:4,4 191:22,22 192:10 196:8 196:10 197:1 202:4 223:6 largely54:12 larger 13:13

13:13 33:3 85:3 97:18 122:14 133:22 197:20 199:6 201:8 last6:7 15:10

17:1 28:6 31:5,8,8 36:18 94:2 135:16 139:11,13 154:9 157:15 159:8 161:10 165:2 167:21 168:3 193:21 206:6 207:2 229:12,16 237:13 243:15 245:15 lasts 162:5 late 167:20 latent55:22 later64:18

68:1 84:19 88:7 90:20 91:5 93:20 94:10,17 123:22 latest27:8

62:2,3,7 65:15,18 76:9 79:11 81:20 188:10 law22:12

49:19 136:21 lawyers

227:16 228:3 228:12 LBNL5:10,11

35:4,9 89:20 110:6 205:9 218:19 LCC 11:3,3

12:10,11,12 12:18,19 57:13 173:11 209:7 233:19 233:19 244:5 244:12 LCL 156:22 LDC9:16 leaks 185:4 lease 164:19

165:22 leases 164:20 least55:5

67:14 76:8 81:16 101:20

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 133:5 155:3 161:2 173:8 175:10 178:18 204:2 228:22 244:21 leave 177:18

193:22 240:5 leaving201:11 led 232:10 left34:6 52:13

96:11 173:2 174:15 175:14 226:9 236:17 legal 58:16 length 58:16

190:20 211:13 Lennox 116:11

121:22 189:20 less 37:11

38:18 47:4 47:17,17 51:19 116:1 116:2 118:19 119:3,5,6 120:8 121:9 122:9 125:19 131:17 146:1 147:12 151:11 171:22 182:8 183:21 193:3 193:3 195:17 195:18 197:14,20 202:3 216:8 229:4 233:17 242:21,22 level 6:17,18

7:1,8 23:11 27:9 40:8 41:4 45:1 68:12 76:6 93:2 96:11 96:16,22 97:4 98:1 103:2,2,4 104:22 105:15 106:7 106:10 107:10 115:7 115:15 116:7 117:17,18 118:12,22 122:16 128:11,22 131:9,20,22 132:3 135:10 144:2 147:11 147:13 163:17 172:5 172:8,8,9,15 173:11,14 184:14 191:3 195:13 198:20 231:4 231:11 232:13,15 levels6:6,8

7:2 30:12,18 36:19 40:7 42:2 45:15 46:16 47:2 48:6 66:18 83:17 84:1,2 84:5,10 85:10 86:21 97:5 100:17 117:4,11 121:10 122:17 128:11 132:15 137:13 150:10 157:21 173:15 175:11 190:14 199:15 237:2 239:5 leverage 143:3 Lewis 104:20

209:15 212:16 Lieu 92:9

130:5 life 10:15,16

83:13,16 90:5,13 91:1 91:8,12 92:5 95:14,16 118:18 130:21 144:9 144:10 145:13 150:2 150:15,16,18 152:19,22 158:8 161:12 161:18 163:1 163:21 165:8 165:11,15 173:18 174:9 174:9 175:5 175:12 176:2 223:3,3 life-cycle

173:9 lifetime 12:17

90:11 91:3,3 91:4,15,20 92:9,12 95:20 150:5 151:7,10,17 152:8 153:5 153:14,21 154:13,15,19 155:2,6 157:5,10,10 157:16,19 158:1,4,11 158:14,16 161:3 169:13 173:9,18 174:5 175:4 223:18 226:8 228:19,20 229:4 236:19 lifetime's

158:4 lifetimes

151:21 158:9 158:21 lift 105:13,14

105:20 lifting 105:22

111:22 112:1 226:14 light 182:18

185:1,7 192:5 193:7 194:5 lighter 193:2 like4:5 7:19

9:4,6,21 17:13 18:1 21:4 22:22 23:4 40:16 47:12,21 48:10 51:18 57:5,7 59:9 59:10,20 61:8 65:10 65:11 71:22 74:4 76:4,7 79:10 86:11 87:17,17 88:21 95:19 99:1 100:11 110:14 124:9 130:2 132:19 132:22 136:9 139:19 140:4 145:18 146:10,12,17 147:21 148:2 149:9 153:11 154:12 156:15 159:11 162:12,13,14 165:16,17 167:5 168:2 174:6 176:13 176:14,17 181:22,22 182:19 183:17,20 188:21 189:10 192:7 193:11,19 194:11 195:14,20 196:1 197:10 197:17,22 198:16 199:4 203:9 208:12 209:8 222:2 223:18 228:2 228:2 233:8 234:18 235:5 235:6,9 236:5,11 237:5 238:9 239:22 242:4 242:9,16,20 likely 13:15

145:3 146:13 212:13 219:14 242:11 244:7 limitations

25:10 limited 12:3

152:4 242:10 line5:15,17,21

45:13 71:13

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 135:14 149:11 192:19 193:13 200:5 linear28:16

167:16 201:6 lines 102:7

192:9,13,14 194:12,13 198:5,14 203:20 link44:4 46:16 lipstick 125:21

126:2 list 10:19

11:14 13:18 94:3 154:13 159:13,16 203:17 205:7 208:15 209:5 209:12 212:9 230:9 list.xx230:10 listed 119:18

119:19 Listen 32:1

244:19 literally 105:1

109:6 238:4 little9:4 26:18

32:16,18 36:12 52:4 60:7 80:3,13 83:12 114:14 124:4,4 131:15,16 136:6 145:21 148:5 154:15 154:16 159:4 167:6 175:3 175:13 177:7 179:11 193:6 206:10 210:8 211:18 219:2 228:2 237:15 238:5,7,8 239:12 live 161:22

162:21 load 13:11

15:4 18:4,7 18:14,20 22:16,19 24:20 25:19 28:8 34:22 35:1,6,9 44:11 52:13 52:19,21 53:4,13,15 53:16 54:2,4 54:10 55:1,1 56:14 99:4 115:4 154:10 174:3 208:13 237:1 loaded 53:12 loading 10:12

56:10 loads 13:17

14:12 19:4 21:16,16,18 25:18 33:2,5 208:14,22 209:2 local 107:4 location 11:10

12:6 locked 88:15

236:2 logic78:20 logical 216:2 logistical

244:15 long2:12

11:14 27:22 45:8 65:2,14 152:10,18 153:2 154:9 154:15,16 163:8 167:21 183:2 193:21 225:17 228:6 long-term 50:3 longer 124:4

150:15 151:2 151:5,6 153:13 155:2 161:3 162:5 165:3 179:19 229:12 245:14 look 18:2

19:10 29:7 34:7 36:18 36:22 37:3 40:12 44:3 48:8 51:18 64:15 68:18 72:11 77:10 79:2,4,4 87:5 88:21 90:21 112:2,21 122:4,10 128:1 129:15 140:18 142:21 149:3 152:22 154:4 162:1 166:21 167:3 170:4 171:12,15,15 171:16 175:12 187:21 195:7 195:14 196:12,19 198:15,16 199:9,12,13 199:17 209:17,22 210:17,22 211:15 212:7 212:20 218:19 219:6 221:15 224:2 227:5 229:19 230:14 235:16 243:3 looked 6:6

12:11 27:21 110:17,17,19 110:22 112:7 127:13 149:8 162:14 164:15 232:4 looking 6:7

9:10 55:9 59:11 66:18 67:10 83:18 83:22 88:4 94:18 102:16 104:21 108:17 113:14 122:17 132:8 136:4 137:20 141:12 160:17 161:18 179:16,18,21 179:22 181:4 187:17 190:12 195:3 198:13 201:17 209:16 216:21 226:22 231:15 240:13 looks 11:3,5

18:1 162:12 189:7 Lord 2:14

86:14 lords30:2 losers232:22 lost 128:4 191:5 lost-cost

136:14 lot 15:7 18:16

20:1 22:15 27:16 28:3 29:13 30:6 34:19 40:14 43:21 47:12 57:3 66:22 84:22 95:4 95:22 108:21 109:1 112:3 127:20 143:6 143:19 145:11 148:17 150:22 163:1 163:1 164:22 165:15 170:2 181:16 193:8 195:17,18 196:13 197:21 202:15 209:14 210:15,18 211:10 215:3 222:3 226:2 226:8 236:10 236:18 lots9:4 42:17

227:5 Lou 31:4 Louis2:21 5:6

16:1 18:19 23:21 25:1 80:11 85:4 88:5 91:9 97:8 98:12 111:9 112:6 136:1 147:20 152:5 176:12

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 185:22 198:10 215:14 217:17 Louis's44:6 love 151:12

227:16 low47:9 98:22

107:12 129:10 141:10,18 155:18 184:9 184:17 208:14 209:1 215:2 low-cost 137:1 low-level

106:13 107:16 lower21:18

33:9 37:12 37:17 38:4 46:14 106:14 114:15 117:17 121:4 133:10 174:10 183:9 197:17 lower-cost

120:22 lowest219:3 lowneyxxx

208:11 lunch 80:13

124:4 176:9 176:20 178:14,16 M M 77:9 175:15 Macy's 197:3,8 made 10:4,5

11:6 23:7 58:8,8 66:22 76:4 133:5 145:16 174:1 206:17 232:2 magnitude

36:3,16 39:5 42:7 55:6 92:20 mailed 243:12 main 4:10

14:14 15:14 mainly 183:14

198:1 maintenance

139:16,20 140:5 141:2 142:5,14,15 142:16 219:6 219:20 major9:6 89:1

89:2 140:6 158:16 makes 30:1

53:8 69:19 81:11 89:19 163:19 209:3 236:9 making 6:11

36:14 39:6 58:8,10 62:13 81:15 125:11 152:2 152:12 164:6 169:1 193:17 197:2 223:11 manual 210:14 manufacture

115:6 176:15 189:22 198:22 199:3 199:4 manufacturer

37:15 40:7 75:2 77:18 80:17 82:12 89:1,2,2 102:1 117:21 160:16 166:15 manufacture...

56:13 60:2 69:1 80:12 81:2,5,8 88:8 110:4 115:14 122:19,21 132:4 153:13 161:19 190:8 226:16,21 227:10 229:14 241:20 manufactures

73:6 189:18 manufacturi...

116:13 161:15 196:12,13 227:7 238:5 241:15 many 11:9

15:1 38:21 59:22 120:2 129:21 130:8 130:11,11 148:17 153:3 165:18 168:21 202:8 mapped 99:18 mapping

101:17 march 35:4

72:2 Marchetti 3:16

5:18 marching

67:21 margin 112:10

116:18 marginal 138:4,7,8 margins

161:15 mark3:3

203:15,16 205:1 210:12 market88:10

88:11 94:19 117:12 155:15,17,18 156:1,3 172:11 194:4 230:6 242:11 markets

111:17 195:18 marking 102:3 markup92:21

116:13,18 117:1 markups

102:4 117:4 Marshall 2:13

5:7 mas 174:2 Master3:16 match 156:4 material 93:10

232:17 materials

179:22 math 188:7

232:5 mathematical

56:10 matrix25:5

26:10 matter41:7

68:7 166:4 190:21 220:10 226:3 matters

218:12 max35:17 maxed 240:1 maximum

28:13 100:11 189:8 may 1:7 7:18

33:4 43:13 44:16 48:22 50:7 54:12 54:18 56:12 64:14 110:16 110:16 117:21 134:1 134:4 146:14 146:14 147:17 152:1 178:2 207:7 239:15 maybe20:16

31:22 41:15 41:20 43:15 45:6 46:14 69:16 76:7 80:10,11,12 80:17 84:7 93:20 121:11 122:8 131:2 133:9 134:3 134:11 137:11 141:12 146:15,20 148:18 163:17 164:22 172:19 173:16 176:16,20,21 177:21 181:13,20 191:2,14 193:7,7 199:10 202:2 204:2 208:4 210:8 211:1

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 212:17 215:7 225:4 229:21 236:1 245:6 McCabe2:15

5:13,13 64:13,13 68:4,5 69:2 77:3,3 78:8 78:12,17 79:1 176:15 McCRUDDEN

126:13,19,21 127:22 146:21 147:2 mean 8:21

16:21 23:16 30:7 36:2 43:2,14 46:19 49:4 50:18 58:15 62:21 63:3 63:12 72:3 80:4 84:8 86:5 92:15 108:5 109:8 118:9 120:1 124:11 129:9 134:4 139:8 143:8 145:20 145:22 153:18 155:8 156:7,8 158:2 167:7 173:21 181:5 183:10,13 185:1 198:8 199:17 200:7 206:20 214:17 216:12 222:4 223:10 225:20 233:10 235:19 meaning 18:13 174:9 means37:2

53:17 54:2 93:9,11,15 99:19 101:18 135:1 138:16 138:17 139:2 139:3,17 144:6,16,17 146:5,6,7 148:5,12 149:4,8,14 150:6 153:19 156:17 163:5 210:2,4 221:12,14,18 222:10,14 223:13,17 224:5,8 231:2 meant23:17

193:4,5 measure68:11

77:22 78:3 231:3 233:5 measured

187:14,15 measureme...

49:20 211:2 measures

77:12 measuring

77:14,16 mechanical

156:18 164:13 mechanics

155:22 median 111:18

111:20 155:8 167:7 230:16 233:7,10,16 233:18 234:6 234:12 Mediation 4:12

4:15 medium 91:4

231:7 meen 234:2 meet42:16

53:6 55:1 58:16 meeting 1:5

10:20 35:4 51:9 68:12 95:3 111:12 146:20 159:22 246:3 meets215:13 Meg 3:5 5:18

5:20 131:4,6 members5:16 memory 10:7 mental 211:1 mentally

211:16 mention 21:7 mentioned

10:3 14:20 34:16 merit232:7 mess 82:9 message

245:13 messed 35:12 messes 165:9 metal 88:20

154:3,4 193:3 method 62:15

70:6,8,11 73:17 78:14 108:11 158:21 161:14 244:22 methodology 62:15 metric43:3

49:19 58:22 60:4,10 65:5 66:19,21 68:9 69:7 72:19,22 73:7,12,13 78:10 79:15 81:5,19 82:11 240:7 metrics 67:18

82:9 Meyers2:16

4:20,20 43:19 59:4 59:18 60:16 60:22 61:4 61:11,18 63:9,15,18 63:21 64:2,6 64:8 65:8 66:1,17 67:4 67:8 69:22 70:13 71:11 72:17 73:2,5 73:11,22 74:6,19 75:1 75:17 80:16 81:14 83:7,9 92:14,17 102:22 114:10 115:17,21 140:1 141:16 142:2,8,15 147:4,9,17 160:7,14,17 220:11,16,20 225:20 230:20 mic6:4 Michael 2:15

2:20 5:12,18 5:20 64:13 68:3,4 77:3 78:6 79:13 79:15 245:13 micro207:3,4

207:13 microproce...

106:8 microproce...

106:17 mics245:12 might26:14

40:9,10 47:9 47:14 56:3 94:21 101:19 110:10,11,20 114:14 127:22 136:6 161:14 167:4 167:6 168:4 179:15 182:21,22 183:1 191:13 192:7,11 199:4 207:22 209:15 226:3 226:19 227:10 238:4 238:18 239:9 241:6 Mike5:13

57:19 58:6 mild 193:16 mile221:8 miles 163:10 million 15:20

139:20 242:6 mind 21:3,16

80:7 99:10 99:12 109:8 111:21 122:13,15 161:8 210:5 minimal

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 147:15 minimis

242:13 minimize

215:16 minimum

28:12 55:3 228:8 minor 146:19

244:15 minus53:13

182:19 minute49:17

118:9 240:6 minutes57:17

178:18,21 misbehaving

183:6 Mislak2:17

4:21,21 95:1 207:1,7,10 207:18,21 245:5 missed 131:8 missing 26:15 misundersta...

73:17 mix 166:1 mixes214:22 mixing 215:6 mocker 172:5 mod 169:11 mode28:13

55:13 model 19:7

29:18,22 30:3 31:15 31:16 33:15 33:20 43:15 47:6,8,10 48:11,20,21 119:16 122:1 151:22 155:7 160:2 166:3 226:11 244:21 modeled

110:16 modeling 13:6

22:18 226:15 244:9 models7:8

47:3,3,17,20 49:5,9 114:18,19 115:10 119:20 161:9 161:11 205:21 moderate20:3 moderated

177:8 moderates

29:14 modify50:17

72:12 130:20 169:10 202:12 modifying

61:22 modxxx207:4 moisture

56:18 moment 15:5

20:15 70:9 money 125:16

125:19 164:6 165:10 227:5 monitoring

185:20 Monte95:10

95:10 234:8 month 62:3

178:2 monthly 160:9

160:9 months81:6 moon 83:5 more4:8 15:15 17:3 20:3 21:3 23:10 28:10 30:9 37:5,16 38:7 44:16 46:12 48:22 50:10 52:20 53:11 53:20 55:19 56:13 57:8 60:19 62:13 69:5,8,20 72:8 80:14 83:12 87:17 90:15,16,17 105:3,9,21 106:3,4,8,9 107:9 112:11 114:21 115:1 115:1 118:19 119:6 120:6 121:15,16,20 122:13 126:5 132:8 135:4 135:20 140:20 142:2 142:4,4,7,8 142:10,11,19 145:7,11 146:13,17,18 146:19 151:11,22 153:10,11 154:1 162:1 162:3 163:16 164:3,4 165:14 166:14 167:5 167:9 168:6 169:12 171:22 176:18 178:18 182:7 182:8,16 188:21 190:11 191:16 192:15,19 193:6,6,15 194:9,11,12 194:18 198:1 202:18,20 212:1 214:16 215:6 219:2 221:6,9 223:15,16 230:4 233:13 233:14 234:21 235:4 235:16 236:7 236:19 240:13 243:18 245:7 morning4:2

10:19 morphed

200:6 most 13:2,2

37:2 54:13 55:10 110:4 111:16 113:7 122:21 140:12 158:4 164:9 171:8 195:20 196:22 197:17 210:3 215:8 244:7 mostly26:16 motor 148:18

148:18 165:5 motors 113:13

120:20 148:17 149:1 149:10 move 10:22

30:21 50:8 50:22 62:5 65:21 66:13 72:2,13 83:9 90:2 112:16 126:11 134:14 137:16,16 139:6 145:21 149:17 172:6 moved235:2 moving33:21

35:16 67:19 80:9 96:8 159:5 169:18 203:1 much 5:21

12:3 15:4,9 16:3,4 23:10 28:10 31:8 32:12,13 33:9 38:4,19 38:22 39:1 97:18 99:11 100:11 105:15,20 118:8 139:2 140:20 150:15 162:5 163:19 165:2 167:2 170:6 176:10 178:15 186:9 187:11,12 192:19 194:9 194:11 200:3 200:7 201:9 210:6 215:6 219:15 236:9 239:7 244:17 multi-story

27:15 multiple35:16

47:2 52:22 multiplier26:1

26:3

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 14:11 24:9 multiply26:1,2

53:18 must 138:18 mute 146:15

146:22 N N 2:1 3:1 4:1 nah 154:2 name4:3

206:3 208:10 212:14 national 10:16

18:12 20:4 146:7 242:14 natural 239:1 nature 192:20 Navigant4:17

5:9 6:22 29:4 51:7 89:3,10 227:12 NDA226:16,19

227:12 near 145:12 near-end-of-...

145:12 nearing 44:4 nearly 187:11 necessarily

31:21 32:15 46:18 53:20 59:7 108:12 118:19 135:11 153:7 158:16 162:6 184:1,2 199:3 214:7 necessary

84:17 100:5 104:14 131:17 134:17 need 9:11,12 10:17 30:20 30:21 31:1 32:14,15 45:9 49:17 52:20 53:3 60:2 70:1,12 71:17,22 72:12 73:2 75:5 79:8 80:2 84:18 86:22,22 98:8 100:4 114:14 119:8 119:9 123:22 124:6,13 129:5 133:4 176:6 179:5 179:6,8 182:8,18 183:22 184:2 184:17,18 191:8 199:7 200:4 202:11 202:12 209:9 214:11 215:21 220:7 242:13 244:16,17 245:2 needed 55:4

131:17 219:12,13 needs27:12

31:21 42:16 42:17 73:5 75:3 81:6 101:10 176:22 179:9 208:5 233:15 negative41:4

109:16 150:22 negatively

174:13 negotiated 81:15 negotiating

72:4 239:15 negotiation

50:6 65:11 67:6 69:16 73:8 negotiations

8:16 neither 114:4

247:9 net 173:12

174:17 175:17 never42:2

59:5 82:17 115:22 116:2 116:2 187:14 187:15 new6:5 7:16

10:10 14:20 16:18 17:1,3 17:4,10 19:9 19:11,16 25:14,15,20 31:8,11,17 31:20 32:6,9 32:12,13,17 33:3 36:5 51:7 54:7 60:4 62:15 65:14 70:4,7 70:10,14,15 70:17 73:7 73:13 74:17 75:13 76:5 80:5 81:3,5 81:11 111:15 124:20 151:20 163:4 163:10 165:7 166:2 177:15 226:12 235:2 239:9,10 newer 16:4

77:13,15 next6:12 11:1

17:3,4 18:3 23:21,22 50:6 57:11 57:12 60:21 68:20 81:22 84:13 90:3 92:2 95:3 96:12 97:13 99:15 103:9 103:14 104:3 104:11 111:12 128:2 146:20 147:3 149:18 150:20,21 156:1,7 159:22 160:21 164:6 165:21 167:1 169:19 171:16 172:14,18 175:14 177:15,19 188:8 201:15 205:12 212:6 219:5 220:13 226:7 235:11 236:2 237:9 243:21 244:14 246:2 nice9:9 30:8

205:20 niche238:15 Nick2:17 4:21 night6:7 50:6

206:6 218:17 243:15 nine 13:20

20:2 25:3 171:9 NIST 143:3 Nobody64:8 nodding 65:20 nods 101:14

190:1 noise 146:12

204:8 non-compre...

90:18 147:21 noncompres...

144:4 149:20 221:6,19 222:8,13 nondiscount...

234:2,3,5 none98:5 nonweatheri...

241:5 noon 178:17 noose 166:19 Nope 130:9 NOPR 8:11,11

8:19 9:1,2,10 14:1 28:14 34:3,5 35:1 35:21 61:6 63:20,21 64:3 67:2,3 67:21 83:20 90:4,19 91:3 91:17 102:4 102:4 108:6 118:5,15 127:13 137:19 138:11 139:14 155:1 170:1,14,14 172:1,7 174:7,11 175:3,11,17 189:6,9 230:14,17,22

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 236:12,13 239:12 240:12 NOPRs 14:15 nor42:14

53:12 54:2 90:6 114:3,4 214:8 234:11 246:1 247:10 Nordstrom's

197:4,8 normal 8:8,15

60:10 92:8 128:9 140:5 north 157:16 northern

183:17 northwest

13:22 17:13 northxxx

153:20 note6:16 7:4

9:6,7 11:7,16 13:16,18 14:9 20:14 23:8,12 24:22 29:5,5 31:18 41:6 42:4,5,7 44:9 44:9 46:14 50:8 52:1 53:14 54:17 54:17 61:17 66:21 67:19 67:19 68:4,4 68:5 72:1,1 76:6 80:22 83:4 84:21 90:7,8 94:1,1 95:19,20,21 97:3,3,20 98:19 100:18 103:1,1,4 112:2 120:3 120:3,10,11 122:2,3 123:16,16 146:11,11 147:9 149:19 155:4,7 157:16 160:4 161:16 162:14,15 169:7 171:17 171:17 173:1 173:1 174:15 175:8,19,19 181:1 186:1 186:10 193:1 193:1 204:5 206:3,3 208:6,6,10 211:3,3 212:14,14,17 214:12 215:22 218:9 224:3,3 225:8 230:7 233:17 234:18 239:10 242:18 245:20,21 noted 61:6

83:8 150:6 230:22 NOTEierier

61:16 NOTEnamexx

86:15 notes66:9

138:13 187:21 204:1 219:19 nothing59:10

59:13 75:13 78:4 112:9 168:14,15 notice58:3 noticed 6:7 November7:4 nowhere 77:16 number7:3

11:3,15 12:21 16:3 18:6,22 20:4 20:10 21:3,9 28:11 29:7 34:15,18 35:22 38:12 41:9,12 54:22 55:16 69:19 75:17 108:2 133:22 134:7 143:18 149:2 152:15 153:12,18 169:13,16,16 202:10 210:11 212:4 224:17 226:20 227:8 227:10,22 232:21 233:9 233:20 239:1 number.xxxx

9:16 numbers8:1

9:16 18:12 19:20 21:4,5 21:12 22:19 30:19 33:21 34:3,16 36:15 41:10 43:2 46:21 46:22 48:9 48:10 49:10 50:21 51:10 63:7 67:10 72:4,10,12 112:3 116:15 122:4 124:7 124:9 127:14 127:16 166:4 166:12 172:13,20 173:4 175:20 177:15 184:15 194:8 202:14 210:6 212:2 224:21 225:2 226:17 229:5 230:13 230:14 231:15 232:5 232:11 235:16 236:3 236:15 242:12 numerator

233:6 nur50:20 O O4:1 object 124:16 obviously

50:18 144:20 173:4 174:19 223:21 occasionally

26:14 32:22 183:21 occupancy

11:16 25:3 occurrence

200:9 occurs 113:17

144:8 221:2 odd 128:1 odds80:7 off4:9,10 16:6

53:10 56:19 62:19 63:11 83:13,19 133:2 153:19 154:18 159:12 162:17 169:13 177:9 186:15 211:12 220:16,20 245:14 offer 112:7 offers208:19 office 13:1

25:14,15,20 27:21 28:2 30:3 196:8 officer247:3 offices32:22

193:7 official 59:10

59:13,16 61:12 66:20 67:1,2 185:14,18 officially60:3 often 113:11

181:19 211:4 211:6 oh 19:1 24:5

62:16 100:22 167:12 184:5 230:4 oil 189:13,18

189:21 oil-fired 189:7 OIM 186:2 okay5:20,22

9:17,20 10:3 11:1 16:9 19:14 22:19 23:13,18 24:5,10 25:8 26:13,16,17 27:4 28:6 30:18 31:4 31:19 33:14

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 37:2 70:16 71:3 83:7,11 86:7 87:20 88:2 90:2 91:21 92:17 101:6,13 104:1 108:13 119:11 122:18 123:18 130:5 131:7 149:15 149:17 151:8 163:3 169:17 178:20 188:2 189:16 190:4 191:2 199:1 199:7 207:6 212:6,17 216:11,12 222:5 224:4 226:18 229:6 229:9 231:21 234:7,16 235:15,18 237:10 240:1 240:3 old 15:6 17:11

19:11 24:1 33:3 158:7 165:17 234:2 241:1 older 16:5 oldest 133:18 once68:5

71:10 79:22 166:2 185:16 186:14 187:8 201:21 217:13 222:17 230:6 one's 103:13 one-stage

35:15 100:12 one-third 54:4 ones 15:17 47:4,7 48:7 106:14 119:18,19 146:19 189:7 195:15 196:7 236:8 online87:6 onto 154:18

184:22 205:18 open 245:11 opening 86:8 openings

179:8 operating 11:6

28:20 169:21 170:9 173:5 173:9,17,18 174:6 175:5 231:12,20 236:19 operation

190:10 operator

105:20 opinion 119:9

222:16,18 opinions

204:3 opportunity

42:17 opposed 37:4

45:15 87:13 101:7 129:17 172:9 optimistic

21:13 227:11 optimized 55:3 option 45:1

135:3 136:14 137:1,1 141:18 219:4 options 193:9 193:15,15 194:20 order36:15

53:6 54:13 55:6 72:13 89:20 92:20 99:4 108:20 125:1 135:6 176:7 198:20 204:9 244:17 organize243:2 original 6:17

91:10 originally

187:17 otherwise

70:17 82:6 179:20 247:11 ours229:12 outcome

175:21 247:12 outdoor

148:18 183:9 237:21 outfit 134:21 outlet211:14 outlined 57:22 outside237:21 outstanding

176:22 over6:1 10:18

47:2 53:16 58:11,14,17 74:1 102:21 118:9,10 138:3 139:13 146:5 148:20 151:10 153:3 162:3 164:19 165:22 179:7 185:6 210:13 223:2 228:12 233:6 244:8 overall 141:13 overly32:21 overpredicted

237:3 oversize 133:1 oversizing

133:7 overstating

21:12 own 210:22

232:6 owner91:11

165:12 ownership

11:12 owns 157:11 P P2:1,1 3:1,1

4:1 p.m 246:4 Pacific 13:21

20:3 package

196:20 page46:20

80:5 100:16 pages204:1 panels 185:3

193:18 195:12 paradigm

218:10 parallel 206:1 parking 238:9 part22:10

32:16 43:3,7 54:13 56:4 60:18 61:5 62:1,5,6 73:18 77:11 78:11 80:18 80:22 81:7 81:15 82:6 82:19 89:21 115:3 118:14 119:19 142:13 154:21 178:6 183:17 197:12 227:1 239:15 241:22 242:3 242:22 Participants

71:4,9 particular

43:13 68:7,9 68:12 124:11 232:13 234:11 238:22 particularly

27:20 55:20 132:21 178:9 203:18 208:14 parties247:10 partition 194:4 partitioning

194:7 partly 12:2 parts50:21,22

65:6 148:8,9 pass48:22

227:21 passes48:14

49:12 past86:16

158:11 patch 26:15 path 59:7 60:1

60:5,10,14 67:13 68:7 85:5 115:15 115:16 123:22 176:7

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 240:2,3 paths83:21

102:8 pattern 43:2

56:14 Paul 2:9 100:8

235:21 pay 102:5

164:21 232:20 payback83:13

83:17 95:16 173:5 174:7 175:3,9 230:13,15,16 230:19 231:10 232:14 233:6 233:7,18,21 234:1,4,6,10 234:20 paybacks

231:1,7,8,9 paying 153:15

164:6 paypack233:4 peak 167:4

170:19 peer 147:11 penetration

23:8 Penney's

197:4 people5:15

22:12 65:20 110:11 111:14 118:10,11 128:4,5 153:1 159:12 163:21 164:17 189:14 204:11 232:10,22 235:2 237:17 per24:20

25:19 34:4 82:15 119:3 128:12 135:15,19,19 135:22 138:9 147:12 173:22 199:18 202:18 percent 15:17

16:7,8,22 17:3,3,10,11 17:13 18:13 18:14 20:5,6 20:8,19 21:2 21:8,10 22:6 34:11,12 35:12 40:17 40:18,19 42:3 54:9,19 55:10 85:13 86:18 87:10 87:16 93:2,3 98:7,16,17 99:3,4,6 100:2 119:3 125:6,9 129:17,22 133:9,13,15 134:11 146:4 150:1,2 159:1,9 170:10,15,18 170:19 171:9 173:12 174:11,16 175:16 179:22 181:2 186:13 194:9 194:11,15,16 197:15 202:2 202:10 211:12 214:11,13,18 214:19 216:6 216:8,8,9,15 216:17 217:8 217:12,22 235:17 percentage

16:4 27:7 53:5 131:12 132:15,16,17 161:22 200:3 percentages

14:16 perfectly55:3 perforated

135:13 performance

39:3 115:11 193:4 203:5 203:19 239:5 performing

95:15 perhaps214:6 period 8:12

17:10 18:9 18:13 24:3 32:12 83:14 102:21 155:3 168:1 173:5 175:3,9 231:10 234:7 234:11 periods83:17

174:7 persistance

23:3 person 107:16

165:13 personal

119:9 personally

86:21 87:17 perspective 59:8 62:22 81:16 127:15 196:17 pertains 83:21 Pete2:5 Peterson 1:18

247:3,16 phase 160:13 philosophical

233:3 234:19 phone 110:7 phrasing

221:21 pick6:15 44:1

47:18 77:19 134:7 picked 43:14 picking 95:18 picture 15:5 piece34:20

70:20 109:4 118:12 164:4 195:3 pieces 76:15

147:22 148:2 195:9 pig 125:21

126:2 233:8 pins 130:3 pipe 186:21

187:4 piping 186:22 pitch 163:19

183:1 place50:10

126:4 146:4 213:4 placed 11:4

237:22 places 137:6 plan 10:12

43:9 229:10 229:11,15 planning 227:2,6 228:19 229:8 plant 196:12 plants 196:13

238:5 plate 155:6 play 166:18

204:12 players 195:17 plea 160:5 plotting49:18

139:11 plugs221:9 plus 13:21

44:21 92:21 101:21 116:13 142:19 167:5 229:10 point9:9,18,21

21:1,19 23:7 44:6 47:15 51:5 54:9 58:13 65:10 65:13 76:18 78:10 84:8 85:13 90:11 98:13 102:14 111:20 119:8 132:20 152:3 155:19 161:20,21 164:6 167:11 181:17 197:2 201:1 217:12 235:22 236:5 242:18 pointed 8:17

23:6 120:5 229:18 pointing 8:13

219:16 235:22

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 points 169:12

213:20 230:2 policy215:16 poof 177:17 poor 155:15 pop 177:22 populated

236:15 populating

28:3 173:6 population

13:4 181:3 portion 104:9

165:20 182:14 Portland

111:11,19,20 position 22:11

58:1 83:6 88:18 192:12 positive218:3 possibility

56:2 possible

125:17 180:7 180:11 possibly38:17

105:6 221:1 potential

47:22 179:20 183:16 239:2 potentially

47:11 108:18 111:13 186:13 203:8 208:3 215:3 221:20 222:9 pounds

105:12,16,17 111:5 power28:9,15

28:18 29:4 29:13 34:10 36:8,11 39:21 46:7 46:12 67:11 powered 219:1 powers 120:3 practical

216:12 practicality

163:9 practice

212:21 215:14,15 217:18 218:15,18 pre-1979 14:6 precedent

220:15,18 predict31:13 predicted

15:16 predicting

31:10 33:9 premium

112:7 194:14 premiumness

112:8 prepare9:5 prescribed

40:3 present3:16

10:10 92:2 144:9 146:1 244:20 presentation

160:1 presented

131:22 136:15 154:22 177:19 presenting

88:6 pressure

29:14 30:6 30:10,15,16 30:20 37:10 38:14 44:8 98:22 203:5 203:14 205:1 205:3,22 206:8,19 208:17 pressures

29:22 38:15 174:2 presume

65:16 pretty 15:4,14

34:18 49:21 59:13 67:1,2 92:10 120:20 134:20 149:15 159:14 163:18 169:12 210:10,10 238:19,20 previous

10:20 18:15 24:16 previously

28:11 61:3 232:4 price 13:10,13

88:20 89:6,9 101:22 102:5 102:16,16 103:7,14 104:3 109:10 111:4,7 112:12 114:12 115:18,19,20 116:2 128:15 129:21 130:1 133:19 135:18 137:19,20 138:5,7,9 141:10 143:16 144:7 144:8 150:9 154:6 priced 109:2,3 prices 102:6

102:19,20 105:2 111:11 117:21 128:16 137:18 139:7 139:8 143:13 pricey 195:1 pricing 89:8

89:21 112:2 138:15 primarily

129:20 primary

204:22 primitive

233:4 prior20:7 66:9

173:20 175:22 private58:18 probability

95:15,18 probably 18:2

21:3,18 32:21 41:17 56:1 82:10 87:6 88:17 95:5 106:10 107:16 117:6 117:8 122:20 124:15,22 125:3,15,19 126:7 129:15 133:10,17 134:4 141:17 143:6 148:2 155:15 159:21 163:20 165:13 175:20 176:18 181:16 183:20,21 184:17 185:8 185:11 196:4 202:12 210:3 210:4 215:7 220:2,9,10 224:1 239:14 243:17 problem 41:22

46:16 50:2 51:12,13 56:9 67:7 115:21 130:10 211:10 215:5 problems

42:14 95:19 165:14 procedure

28:22 29:1 34:10,21 37:7,19 38:4 38:18 39:2 44:20 48:14 48:22 49:3 49:12 50:17 59:22 61:1 61:12,13 62:19 63:10 63:22 64:2 64:15,16,17 64:20,21,22 68:17 70:2 70:14 73:5,9 75:19 77:8,9 77:11 78:21 79:3 80:19 81:4,18,21

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 82:16 83:3 168:12 245:16 procedures

63:1,11 65:1 67:17 78:13 180:14 proceedings

247:4,6,7 proceeds45:8 process 9:13

51:8,9 66:5,7 69:7,11,13 69:13 76:8 78:10 79:12 80:19 81:1 82:7 96:1 208:21 processes

228:19 produce 18:6

56:6 produced

161:9 214:5 producing

119:2 183:5 183:6 187:13 product7:8,13

75:3,11 78:2 82:8,12,14 118:8 119:3 150:3 151:6 172:4,15 173:21 192:13,14 194:21 198:5 198:14 229:19 239:10,13 product's

150:5 production

102:2 118:21 products73:7 119:15 171:6 171:7,8 187:18 profession

133:19 profit 112:10 program 74:20

75:22 78:7 82:4 programmed

22:1 programming

106:9 project5:4

16:10 17:2 26:21 27:9 32:11 103:18 139:7 projected 31:9 projectile

204:19 projection

14:3,22 19:5 33:11 projections

14:19 31:7 161:18 promise

163:18 promised

178:11,12 proper80:18

185:19 property

185:21 proponent

123:5 proportion

29:20 31:1 38:3 proportional

54:14 152:20 proposal 58:9

239:11 propose 241:17 proposed

57:20 58:2,3 59:1 60:10 62:3 66:3 67:4 68:6 69:18 76:18 188:11 proposing

70:13 73:8 73:13 proposition

131:9 pros22:5 prototypes

205:22 provide83:16

85:14 88:18 89:1,4 99:4 132:3 168:20 179:10 187:22 191:8 203:13 204:3 215:21 227:17 229:3 231:6 provided 62:2

62:4 168:5 200:16 213:2 230:21 231:7 provides89:1 providing

93:11 205:1 231:1 244:3 244:5 provisions

68:16 71:21 proxy 127:5

209:15 Ptacks 171:15

239:22 public8:10

66:5,7 110:1 245:10 published

73:18 publishes

18:21 pull 78:1 89:20

107:10 173:16 pulled 29:18 pulling 107:5

107:21 pump 170:18

184:3 pumping

183:2 pumps 182:17

182:18 puncture

185:4 purchase

102:16 purchased

93:1 purely 144:14

222:1 purpose64:17

65:3 77:14 77:16 79:1 purposes

68:17 229:8 push 59:5 60:7

193:8,10 196:9 239:6 242:11 put 19:18

20:14 21:4 27:16 33:15 38:22 52:19 53:22 60:18 62:16 64:18 87:12 91:11 94:13 106:11 109:22 123:7 124:18,21,22 125:8,21 132:4 137:13 147:2 150:17 154:1 158:7 159:13,18 162:20 163:10 165:7 168:8 171:1 185:2,14 193:8 204:13 208:2,8 212:22 213:10 218:3 232:17 233:9 puts 166:3 putting27:11

28:1 84:14 86:2,4 116:18 128:21 134:18 135:3 136:11 217:10 226:10 Q quality 194:15 quantify 142:3

142:9 quarter45:20

46:5 question

23:14 26:4 29:16 31:7 32:4 37:15 42:19,20 43:18 44:2,5 52:21 55:19 56:3,12 58:13 64:9 67:3 70:21 76:3 77:4,5 85:5 87:9 100:8 116:22

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 117:10 122:12,13 131:7,20 133:1,15 143:2 147:14 166:15 167:14 170:12 181:2 209:9 211:7 214:3 230:11 230:12 236:14 243:18 questioning

200:5 questions

5:22 10:22 57:9 124:12 133:8 161:7 199:10 203:18 206:9 quick85:9

100:8 170:12 210:13 quickly227:14 quite8:14 15:7

15:15 21:14 42:6,7 65:14 66:11 84:20 92:11 113:3 quoted 63:8 quotes 177:10 quoting

148:10,11 R R2:1 3:1 4:1

206:11 207:15 raining 215:2 raise71:4 raising 44:6

190:2 Ramirez4:14 4:14 67:14 68:21 69:4 70:19 71:6 71:10,13,15 72:6,8 79:5 80:2 124:2 176:5 178:15 224:4,11 244:15 245:11 range 122:17

128:6 153:10 200:20 211:14,16 224:2 ranges 190:13 rant42:10

178:8 rate 12:17

103:18 104:18 127:5 146:3 169:20 170:15 171:14 222:22 rated 190:10 rates39:5

95:20 104:19 170:1,13,21 171:5 229:17 rather7:18

86:2 112:12 127:8 151:5 167:21 177:9 179:19 208:13 212:19 222:14 rating 11:5

42:16 ratio45:9

103:18 146:12 202:17 ratios 93:17 RAV97:1 reach 203:19 read 12:2

136:22 232:3 ready82:1

95:2 real 38:6,14,15

50:16 56:11 85:8 88:19 102:20 117:7 130:1 146:13 165:19 170:10 177:10 211:9 240:15 real-world

38:11 realistic44:16

53:21 153:12 237:4 realistically

153:8 reality37:18

37:21 45:12 108:19 114:14 realize23:21

90:8 127:15 145:7 really 14:22

17:22 24:11 26:7 28:1 30:7 34:1,20 35:19 40:14 45:11 46:15 47:9 49:21 52:2 54:17 56:7 80:4 82:17 87:1,8 105:14 108:18 109:2 109:8 117:19 131:2 132:12 137:10 152:13 157:3 158:3,4 159:18 161:11 163:7 166:20 168:1 170:16 173:18 183:15 184:9 194:22 198:9 211:6 215:5 233:4,8 245:3,3 reason 6:11

22:14 23:6 34:14 53:8 65:12 174:5 201:5 205:17 207:12 reasonable

14:8 55:8 90:22 110:18 110:19 111:1 111:2 132:9 185:12 209:15 225:13 reasonably

78:1 reasons 13:8

28:11 35:2 175:7 rebates41:20

42:1 rebel 232:19 recalibrate

226:11 recall 62:19 recap 13:5

14:13 102:22 receive 108:7 received 60:12 recent 152:1

168:6 recommend... 60:18 198:3 reconvene

178:14 record 80:18

80:22 159:19 162:14,19 199:13 224:7 247:6 records 95:9 rectangular

135:14 redistributing

54:9 redo235:12 redoing 86:3

134:1 reduce33:5 reduced 33:2

40:18 247:8 reduction

35:13 42:3 reef 166:16 reel 77:6 reference 63:4

64:16 65:3 68:2 76:8 referencing

79:13 referring 79:13

100:15 157:13 190:17 refinements

36:13 reflect 118:19 reflected

34:21 196:1 reflecting

154:7 refresh 10:2,7 refrigeration

39:22 40:10 50:1

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 refrigerator

193:20 regarding

179:17,20 208:20 regardless

60:8 79:16 182:1 222:17 regards 10:12

212:15 region 12:5

13:7,9 18:8 18:17 20:2 25:12 26:12 56:7 138:11 regional 13:3 regions 13:20

15:6 20:3 21:15 28:19 registering

153:1 regular 183:16

187:13 regulations

73:19 77:17 78:5,11 reject22:5 relate 163:16

204:8 related 182:3,6

203:18 204:4 247:10 relating 156:7

156:8 relationship

28:17 147:14 166:10 relative 14:1

14:12 18:7 19:10 20:9 24:4 25:17 29:20 30:9 36:2 39:5 44:9 93:17 155:15 156:3 175:11 198:7 231:11 relatively

55:21 141:10 144:5 174:14 Relay 148:16 relays 145:3 release 160:10 released 160:9 relevant 12:1

68:16 reliability

151:13 185:18 186:9 reliable 166:12 relief62:16 rely 168:11 remember

86:17 93:17 125:5 143:12 159:1 173:5 191:13,18 194:7 237:6 remind 10:14 remodels

133:21 removal 53:6 remove53:3

54:15 repair90:3,4,5

90:7,13,14 90:17,18 91:1 92:6,15 93:9,19 140:8 142:13 142:13 144:4 144:6,20 145:2 146:18 147:21 149:18,20,22 150:4 151:3 151:4 152:10 152:11 154:18 157:12,15 158:17 159:2 163:18 220:22 221:2 222:5 223:9 repaired

150:16 157:17 repairs 90:11

156:20 158:15 221:7 repeat 154:22 repeatedly

44:6 repeating

172:16 rephrase

179:11 234:14 replace33:3

85:16,20 87:12 91:13 91:19,19 99:21 100:4 124:19 151:5 164:18 165:2 165:4,17 209:9 217:5 218:8,22 replaced 84:19

125:2 157:4 157:11 158:5 168:22 replacement

31:20 32:15 90:7 92:15 93:1,16 96:10 98:4 104:12 131:17 134:15 164:21 212:15 226:22 replacements

32:9 131:9 134:12 237:7 replacing

84:17 85:21 87:13,15 91:7 140:6 158:19 164:18 215:19 216:21 report75:11

79:19 171:16 Reported 1:18 REPORTER

247:1 reporting

234:7 represent 12:8

14:4 24:21 97:18 115:13 200:20 representati...

14:8 55:8 representati...

233:22 representative

25:19 47:7 48:17,19 93:12 115:11 127:17 170:8 Representat...

95:13 97:19 representing

126:22 represents

12:13 209:22 reputable

164:15 request62:1,4

199:12 requests

57:22 require32:6,9 133:10 176:18 190:14 215:18 required 54:22

70:8 73:19 82:15 87:15 131:21 135:7 requirement

11:2 53:7 79:21 requirements

65:3 78:15 requires 85:11 requiring

213:15,18,19 215:20 RES 180:8 residential

55:20 148:10 163:16 171:6 180:12 Residentials

21:22 resolve25:11

131:2 202:21 respect58:1 respond 149:6 response

71:14 rest71:16

109:7 149:12 196:2 223:18 restate96:2 restates 96:2 result91:8

142:17 150:10 174:4 176:3 resultant

175:9 resulted 35:12 resulting

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 102:6 results56:6

83:14 96:6 173:2,3 205:14 225:22 231:8 243:20 244:2 244:5 retail 13:1

197:1 retailer 197:10 retailers

193:12 retain 90:19 retrofit 133:8 retrofits

132:22 retrofitting

136:11 return 41:6,6 returns41:1 revamped

151:1,10 review76:5

79:10 revise 180:1 revised 34:6

62:15 175:19 revising 74:8 revision 62:7

76:4 revisit 10:17

29:11 RFI 61:6,11 Rheem 4:20

103:1 114:10 140:1 147:4 220:21 Richard 2:14 Rife228:15 riff 176:17 rigging 111:13 right 16:16

17:1,4 19:13 19:15 22:13 25:7 27:1,3 31:11 33:14 34:6 35:22 36:19 37:8 39:7,17 41:1 41:2 42:15 43:15 47:14 47:15,18,19 56:20 58:6 60:13 61:18 61:21 62:14 63:2 65:19 70:6,7,9,21 71:15 72:11 74:13 78:21 79:13,17 85:14 86:19 88:10 91:17 92:7,10,13 93:13 99:16 101:1,4,5 102:6 104:15 106:19 108:11 113:19,20 114:4,5 116:14 117:7 119:16 120:12 128:16 129:9 129:19 130:15 131:20,21,21 132:7,8,17 137:2,3,12 141:11,22 142:14 143:4 143:14,15 145:9,20 146:1,8 148:3,10 150:15 151:8 151:21 152:3 154:7 157:19 159:3 160:3 172:21 173:20 177:14,16 181:20 182:5 182:18 183:1 183:5,9,18 183:19 188:5 188:6 189:19 192:14,18 194:8,22 197:18 201:19,20,20 202:1 207:8 207:8 209:21 210:5 211:11 212:12 213:9 213:13 214:10,17,17 215:1,4 217:21 218:15,16 220:5,19 224:21 226:5 226:22 227:2 227:5,6 228:21 232:17 235:11 236:21 237:4 237:8 239:22 240:4 241:13 241:19 244:10 ripping 204:20 road 16:15 Robert3:7

212:3 rock 177:18,19 role215:17 roll 226:19 rollup 117:16 roof 106:20 134:1 182:13 182:21 183:3 184:21,22 185:3 193:7 201:10 203:9 204:21 roofing204:6 roofs 185:1 room 4:6 8:15

22:14 64:8 110:4 179:21 214:18 216:7 238:5,7 ROSENQUIS...

115:3 Rosenquist

2:18 5:10,10 7:10,12 8:2,4 32:5 35:8,9 51:5,15,17 51:21 52:5 52:10 57:12 83:11 85:10 86:1,8,16 87:20 88:1,3 90:2 91:16 91:22 92:8 92:13,16,18 93:5,8,14 94:2 95:4 97:12 99:7 99:14 100:10 100:19,22 101:2,8,14 103:6,13 104:1,7,10 108:4,10,14 112:16 113:6 113:14,21 114:4,7,20 115:19 117:3 118:2,4,17 119:11 123:2 123:12,18 125:7 126:11 127:10 128:3 130:19 131:11,13,19 134:14 136:3 136:8,13,22 137:4,11 138:2,20 139:3,6 140:3,14,22 141:9,21 143:7,12 144:3,12,14 144:17,19 145:20 146:8 147:8 149:6 149:17 150:19 151:9 151:15 152:2 152:16 154:17,21 156:19 157:14 158:6 159:1,5,16 159:18 160:4 160:11 161:1 163:3 168:3 168:15 169:18 170:16,21 171:11 172:22 174:18 180:19 181:1 181:9,11,15 182:5 187:19 188:8,14,19 188:22 189:10,16 208:9 209:11 209:19 212:6 212:11 217:2 217:9 218:21 219:9,13,21

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 220:17,22 221:12 222:4 223:8 225:10 225:15 226:7 227:15 228:11 229:16 230:3 230:18,21 231:18,22 232:8 234:6 234:16 235:1 235:6,13,21 236:18,22 237:6 243:8 243:18 244:12,19 245:3 roughly 13:3

105:8 136:5 178:2 round207:9 routine 140:4

215:15 routinely

218:1 row 114:8 rows 12:19 RS93:9,11,15

135:1 138:16 138:17 139:2 139:3,17 144:6,16,17 146:5,6,7 148:5 149:4 149:8,14 150:6 210:2 210:4 221:12 221:14,18 222:10,14 223:13,17 224:4,8 RTU 241:4 RTU's 143:18 rule24:16 43:8 61:12 63:18 63:20 68:8 68:22 71:1 81:15 168:3 188:11 192:20 208:3 212:1 230:5 rule-making

58:3 65:12 66:5 69:13 220:11,13 229:19 rule-makings

231:1 rulemaking

180:14 rules43:7

62:18 182:9 run 12:12

23:11 53:6 56:22 106:19 199:22 203:6 222:3 224:16 224:20 234:11 running 56:3

56:17,21,22 87:21 95:10 168:22 194:2 runs 199:14 rusting 163:12

165:16 rusty3:4 4:22

35:10 63:8 65:15 66:11 74:4,13 228:9 S S2:1 3:1 4:1

210:9 SAC218:8 Sachs2:19 5:5

5:5 15:18,22 17:12 32:19 42:9 49:15 50:7,14 55:18 56:12 57:5,10 92:19 93:6 93:22 111:9 112:5,14 125:20 126:17 127:3 132:18 133:16,18 134:10 142:18 143:17 146:6 146:9 152:19 159:20 160:20 161:5 162:4,17 177:6,13 178:4,9 185:5 189:4 189:12,17,21 190:2,19 191:4,18 192:4 194:2 194:4 195:2 195:15,19 202:16,22 204:5,17 215:10 216:1 219:8,10,14 220:21 221:8 233:2,14 234:1,14,17 238:14,21 241:3 242:3 242:9,20 243:3 safe 187:20 safety 110:12

161:14 sake29:6 sale 140:7 197:22 sales 129:16

163:19 166:22 196:22 198:7 202:2,8 same7:17

16:20 19:20 21:22 29:22 31:10 33:4 37:8 41:8 44:16 50:11 50:20 51:1 51:22 52:2,6 52:8 56:13 56:18 70:15 75:5 80:5 97:4,7 99:17 102:4 107:20 107:21 108:5 108:11 110:20,21 112:22 117:1 117:4,12,22 119:4 127:19 127:19 130:10 132:12,14,22 133:2 143:19 151:6 156:18 165:8 171:22 175:6 177:2 200:2 205:4 206:20 208:13 213:6 217:4 218:10 223:6 239:17 239:18 Sami 3:11 4:18 sample 10:8

11:2,13 12:3 12:10,18 14:3 24:8,15 25:16 26:5,7 26:22 27:15 29:12 32:13 95:7,12,18 96:4,5 97:14 97:15 samples 12:12 sampling

62:16 75:9 168:12 San 134:22 sanction 85:18 sand 129:13 sanity 112:6 sat8:9 saturation

168:11 SAV 113:17,22

114:1 115:16 117:1 120:5 120:8 122:2 122:14,22 125:5 save38:7,10

38:16 46:19 125:16 saves 100:2 savings29:15

36:3 47:11 169:21 170:9 173:11 174:9 174:10 175:13 231:12 saw21:4 25:2

25:2 35:10 115:20 119:14 134:16 138:13 139:8 171:4 174:10 229:18 230:16 say 17:2 19:22

25:14 30:2

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 31:5 37:2 38:19,19 40:12 43:21 52:18 53:22 66:6 67:15 69:6,15 72:10 75:7 88:16 89:19 92:14 93:1 103:20 110:1 110:6 113:6 124:10,13 137:5 138:12 143:4 147:11 148:4 154:14 156:1 157:8 158:3 161:21 162:20 163:20 166:11 169:14 171:11 178:4 184:4 185:10 186:2 188:13 194:19 195:11 196:6 201:1 210:4 216:4 218:6 218:16 220:8 221:13 222:7 224:10,19 232:5 233:7 242:10 244:12 saying 17:7

25:6 26:6,9 31:2 32:8 38:8 44:18 48:18 72:7 82:10 83:1 86:14 99:7 103:3 114:11 117:5 121:3 121:19 125:20 139:1 148:20 162:9 163:19 164:7 184:8 187:5 202:3,4 212:16,17 217:13,14,17 217:21 218:6 223:14,19 225:21 226:5 242:9 244:16 says59:14

60:4 61:4 64:10 68:8 68:13 81:4 104:2 164:5 168:20 223:22 232:21 scale 18:4,7

108:6 141:22 scaled 14:12

25:18 147:16 scaling 139:4

144:6 150:8 scenarios

211:15 schedules

11:16 schools32:22 science46:17 screen 132:5

169:13 screws 185:3

185:3 sealed 193:17 seals222:9 second 14:10

26:2 44:5 75:7 165:11 204:9 208:8 225:6 second-order

54:18 section 72:8,9 210:14 secure 169:12

169:14 see9:15 17:7

17:20 21:6,7 31:2 32:22 33:17 34:7 34:16 36:1,2 36:7,10 37:5 41:9 44:16 45:9 47:3 48:10,11,15 49:10,14,15 52:5 56:2,13 65:18,19 70:19 71:2 77:10,12 79:4 80:14 84:19 85:11 86:22 87:6,7 90:20,21 91:5 94:10 94:17 96:15 97:21 99:14 100:10 102:6 103:15 104:11 108:18 109:6 109:9,11 112:4 116:15 128:14,21 132:8 135:17 138:6,11 145:9 150:19 150:21 153:18 155:8 162:1,2,3 171:13 173:14 174:6 174:11 177:15 178:13 189:10 190:13 199:13 200:18 202:8 205:1,14,21 206:11 207:12 208:16,19 209:1 210:19 211:7,10,15 211:17 212:20 215:11 218:18 222:12 223:11,19 224:9,17 225:18 226:2 226:11 229:20 230:14,15 234:14 236:4 236:5 242:10 243:3,20 245:12 246:2 seeing 39:19

44:17 48:9 51:2 92:2 101:14 109:8 112:21 118:18 129:6 141:9 153:2 172:13 seek60:11 seen 42:2 95:5

173:20 175:22 195:15 229:5 238:9 segregated

51:13,13 segue201:14

203:2 seismic204:8 select47:5 48:7 selected 43:15 selecting

118:12 selection 44:7

48:11 self219:1

242:10 self-powered

135:2 sell 164:9

165:1 182:7 selling 119:5

121:12 129:16,20,21 164:3,4 197:19 send 77:1

180:3,4 sends 108:20 sense28:3

30:1 44:19 55:20 89:19 92:20 93:4 114:17 118:1 146:19 161:12,16 194:17 195:2 204:19 238:21 242:4 242:15,16,20 sensitive

164:17 195:16 sensitivity

10:11 52:15 54:20 208:11 225:19 sensor 135:20 sensors 100:5

135:6,8 sent206:6

245:17 separate69:10

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 69:12,13 75:1 101:4 142:14 186:5 237:20 239:13 241:9 separated

75:2 203:21 223:7 242:2 separately

187:1 September

58:4,6 Septemberx...

67:21 series 18:6 serve 174:4

208:12 serves95:9

96:5 service 157:10

161:12,18 services

109:19 171:16 sessions

224:12 set 10:2 27:8

41:10 97:13 97:15,17 98:17 204:3 220:14,17 sets24:17 setting 59:20

66:18 116:7 settle 134:3 seven 27:14

27:16 28:2 29:1 34:8 35:6,14 43:20 96:14 98:5 102:7 102:12 104:21 105:12 106:5 113:7 114:8 114:12 120:4 130:3 145:16 145:16,21 149:3 158:1 175:7 199:22 221:3 224:20 244:5 seven-year

146:18 sevenxxx

207:4 several 11:19

141:14 201:10 Sewn 130:7 shake 166:4 shakes 166:8 shaking

155:10 shall 137:16 shape 159:12

195:3 204:20 shaping 47:12 share88:11,12

94:19 155:16 155:18,18 156:1,3 172:11 205:18 230:6 sheet69:21

80:21 81:7 82:6,19 88:20 154:3 193:3 shell 19:4,6,17

20:17 33:1 shift 167:6 shifting

118:20 ship 158:10 shipment

129:18 158:21 160:8 162:2 166:11 176:15 197:22 226:10 244:16 shipments

31:15,16 32:11 33:8,9 33:13,15,20 88:8 90:6 92:2,11 94:7 94:19 117:15 118:13,15 150:21 151:16,22 152:1 153:17 153:19 155:7 156:2,9 157:10 160:2 166:8,9 167:20 168:1 168:18,19 226:11 227:6 244:9,20,21 shipped

159:20 shipping

155:5 short55:21 shorter 153:21

154:13 shorthand

204:7 247:1 should 16:10

19:22 21:19 22:16,19 50:5 51:10 69:1 88:3 93:21 95:1,2 99:10,12 106:16 113:20,22 114:1,1 119:2,10 123:7 128:3 132:4 142:16 146:17 157:12 158:11 159:21 161:3 166:7,10 196:1 210:10 218:19 219:2 224:1,2 229:20 231:14,22 235:15 236:1 243:13 shouldn't

50:15 99:12 183:4 show9:15

34:19 48:8 71:2 101:16 121:9 225:2 226:1 228:16 229:8 230:13 244:21 showed 6:5

121:10 191:1 232:18 showing 6:18

6:19 48:7 116:16 120:4 132:1 172:20 244:2 shown 69:19 shows 2:20

5:19 98:7 135:10 152:9 173:10,17 SHR55:21

56:14 side74:2

101:22 103:7 140:19 163:15 180:20 190:7 197:22 199:18 208:2 209:6 222:20 244:4 sideways

235:20 sign 70:2 signal 146:12 significant

174:14 175:18 significantly

28:10 129:7 175:5,6,15 similar 11:21

122:5 simple52:16

173:5 174:7 175:2,9 230:15,18,19 230:20 231:1 231:3,9 232:14 233:4 233:6 234:20 simplicity

52:20 simply 101:9

104:14 231:9 simulated

24:16 simulation

29:2,19 95:10,11 234:9 since4:4 7:4

9:2 16:1 53:3 59:15 68:6 83:20 123:5 137:19 138:10 161:8 166:15 174:6 209:11 236:8 sincerely

173:7

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 singe 113:22 single 11:9

12:12 31:20 147:6,6 151:4 184:15 208:13 singles213:11 sit 116:3

176:20 212:18 site 128:15

141:13 143:19 232:17 sitting 67:6

178:2 214:17 situation 39:1

45:7 90:10 situations

224:22 six23:22

196:9,9 sizable 171:4 size 13:7,12

15:1 27:6 36:2 48:6 100:21 105:5 132:2,2,8 134:2 135:13 138:18 141:1 141:22 160:8 179:18,20 190:11,14,17 195:3 198:10 198:19,22 199:6 200:4 201:18,21 202:5 205:4 211:5 219:7 219:22 sizes51:16

108:21 120:1 191:3 199:21 200:9 201:17 skewing 159:3 skill 106:10

107:10 144:1 skimming

209:13 sleep 193:22 sleeve239:22

240:1 slender238:20 slide6:14 9:5

10:18 50:5 52:12 95:5 96:7 99:15 99:16 100:19 103:1,9,14 104:3 126:14 132:1 134:16 138:20 139:5 150:20 169:19 172:14 173:16 slides 103:21

104:6,11 188:20 slightly6:10

223:16 slow80:2 smack203:13 SMACNA

203:16 210:12 SMACNAxxx

224:15 small 30:3

55:16 105:16 130:4 143:8 143:18 161:22 191:21 192:10 219:14 238:14,22 239:1,1 smaller33:3 198:1 199:14 202:14 211:5 Smart 164:11 SNOPR 63:3 society206:3 sod 236:9 software48:4

206:14,18 sold 48:14

120:21 134:13 167:2 197:17 solely 139:17 solution 49:4

50:16,18 86:12 87:1 95:16 136:8 136:10,11 137:10 214:5 215:9,20 217:20 some4:8 10:4

10:9 12:15 21:4,14 26:8 29:6 35:7 40:9,10 43:9 43:11,14 47:7 49:9 55:7 65:12 72:16,17 81:2,8 82:7,8 87:17,18 88:18 89:20 90:11 91:6,6 92:3 97:10 97:11 101:2 101:19 102:15 111:11 113:5 119:8 120:1 120:14 121:2 124:7 126:15 132:8,9,20 132:20 133:8 147:2 148:13 149:13 157:20 163:17 171:3 176:17,18 177:22 179:17 181:5 181:14,17 190:7 192:6 193:7,11 195:15 197:7 200:21 203:3 203:7,8,10 203:14 205:13 206:1 206:17 210:16 211:4 211:7,21 212:8 216:21 218:17 219:19 221:14 228:20 232:10,22 236:2 237:17 240:13 241:12,12,14 244:9 245:17 somebody

77:6,21 193:22 somehow

43:16 someone

86:14,22 157:11 166:9 200:16,17 209:6 something

8:18 26:15 29:10 49:16 49:17 55:9 55:12 60:3 61:6,8 66:10 75:10 76:10 81:7 83:12 87:18 89:22 95:1 99:12 109:9,11 111:5 119:1 120:9 127:22 128:2 130:17 133:21 134:4 138:14 144:5 149:14 152:10 162:8 165:5 170:8 176:8 181:22 181:22 185:15 189:6 194:13 195:11 202:2 202:5 204:4 209:4,7,16 211:1 213:3 213:12 217:15 218:14,18 219:11 221:16 223:22 224:10,11,13 226:3 228:15 something's

221:10 sometimes

164:20 somewhat

36:6 somewhere

153:11 183:2 185:11 240:12,12 sons53:4 soon 205:18

244:8 sooner70:18

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 165:14 205:11 222:2 sophisticated

106:3,4 135:21 142:7 142:8,19 146:13 sophistication

135:7 sorry 18:19

23:20 31:4 48:3 78:17 108:4 112:10 112:18 131:8 144:19 180:9 219:18 228:10 243:8 sort 11:3 12:21

13:11 14:2,5 24:17 25:10 36:15 45:11 54:6,11 56:9 66:13 68:19 90:9 92:20 98:8 99:17 134:6 200:6 203:14 209:6 216:2 231:2 231:3 233:3 243:22 sound 177:4

225:12 sounds47:12

57:5 86:11 110:14 113:19 130:2 136:9 146:12 176:12 177:5 source206:2

210:5 south 182:14 southeast

57:1 196:11 196:14 sowing 202:11 space 11:15

12:7 13:1 14:3,17,18 15:6,13 16:19,22 45:12 85:15 140:18 142:10 214:22 spaces49:18

57:3 spark221:8 spate 18:9 speak68:3 speaking

167:10 173:15 179:16 speaks 104:2

104:4 special 213:4 specials

192:22 specialty

238:14 specific

115:10 119:19 122:1 specifically

78:21 190:12 217:3 specifications

204:11 speeds 113:12 spend 125:19 spent22:15 split 13:22 spoke245:16 spots 183:10

183:11 spreadsheet

12:11 130:21 SQ 135:17 square 15:21 30:4 112:8 122:2 133:22 140:11 220:8 stack6:12 staff 107:16 stage8:10

21:9 22:9 28:12,14,17 28:20 45:20 46:14 54:21 56:22 58:9 213:19 214:5 215:2,20 216:22 staged 20:20

34:1,2 36:7 84:4,14 88:9 96:14 97:2 98:6 102:9 112:22 113:5 113:6 114:8 114:13,15 115:22 121:6 123:4,8,10 125:8 128:17 147:5,12 217:11 stages35:16

54:11 85:12 113:8,9 120:9 217:8 staging 35:18

53:8 147:18 190:9,10 stakeholders

77:2 stand 112:14

232:6 standard 4:6

63:4 64:14 65:6 68:17 69:12 70:6,7 70:15,18 76:4,9 77:14 81:12 116:7 157:21 174:15 210:19 215:15 223:20,20 238:18 239:16 standards5:4

22:6 59:21 70:4 72:21 77:15,22 79:11,14 82:16 90:10 92:4,5 94:5 171:21 standpoint

64:1,3 stands 137:12 star23:22 Starr2:21 5:6

5:6 16:1,9,10 16:13,15,21 17:7,9,15,20 18:18,19 19:1,7,14 22:20 23:3 23:20 24:5 25:1,1,8 26:4 26:13,17,20 27:2,4,19 29:16 31:4 31:19 32:10 33:7,14,17 34:13 36:17 36:22 37:9 37:14 38:2,6 38:13 39:4 39:10,13 40:11 41:19 42:1 44:10 44:13 45:14 46:2,8,15 47:21 48:4 48:15,17 49:14 50:5 50:12,16 51:18 52:2 56:16 57:14 80:10 85:4,4 85:21 86:7 86:10,20 87:22 88:2 88:16 89:5,8 91:9,21 92:7 97:8 98:12 99:9 104:20 105:7,14,18 106:5,11,18 107:4,12,19 108:2,9,13 108:17 110:6 111:3,10,18 111:21 112:11 124:15 125:15,22 126:4,9 129:15 130:7 130:10,14,17 131:14 132:11 133:20 134:8 134:13 136:1 136:4,18 137:5 138:12 138:22 139:5 147:20 148:13,20 149:2,13 152:5,21 153:6,17 154:6,12,16 156:15 157:3 158:3,18 159:3,6,11 160:15,18

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 162:11 164:2 164:9,12 166:14 168:17 169:6 169:9,17 176:12,16 182:6,16 183:4,13,19 184:5,10,16 185:10 186:11,18,22 187:3,8,12 190:16 191:7 191:11 195:20 196:15,21 197:6,12 198:7 199:20 201:3,21 202:6,19 203:12 204:22 205:20 209:8 209:17 210:2 211:22 212:10 213:8 213:12,15 214:3,10,16 215:1,18 216:4 217:7 217:21 218:10,16 221:11,13 222:7,14 223:12 227:9 236:14,21 237:2,8,10 239:3 240:11 240:20 STARR:xxx

168:8 start4:9,10

47:15 76:7 79:11 94:14 96:3 145:14 165:18 167:3 173:13 179:15 201:7 208:9 212:4 started 4:7 9:2

35:15 47:16 212:16 213:7 starting 4:7

47:3 48:9 83:13,19 85:2 128:10 141:10 starts 172:8

202:11 Stas3:2 stat 128:5 state59:2

98:10 stated 37:19

61:3 68:15 82:19 states21:11

184:9 static30:5,10

30:15,16 37:10 38:15 44:8,15,16 174:2 193:4 193:5,14 205:3,22 208:17 239:5 239:8 statics 174:5 stating 83:4,4 statistical 26:7

160:9 stay30:19 staying52:2 stays22:21,22

117:12 steep 167:9 stenographi...

247:7 step 177:21 210:13 stepped 9:5 steps82:5

177:20 Steve213:2

215:7 stick98:14

123:14 125:12 still 33:4 42:13

42:22 44:14 44:16 51:22 56:22 57:2 58:9 64:21 65:9,16,18 72:17 90:10 90:17 91:12 106:19 121:1 126:14 142:15,16 147:14 168:22 175:4 179:8 183:1 183:10 184:22 190:19 194:15 200:2 202:15 208:21 211:15 stock 14:4

17:4 155:17 156:4 195:21 stop66:8

124:1 stores 111:22 stories 196:9

196:10 story 175:4

238:6 straight

171:21 209:7 straightforw... 32:18 144:5 strategic

42:12 50:4 stretch 159:6

201:1 strict 166:4 strike 114:6,7 strokes 178:7 strongly 194:5 struck66:15 structural 50:2 structure

201:11 203:10 204:7 stuff22:21

23:9 26:21 75:9 106:16 107:10 132:12,14,22 141:20 145:7 167:1 169:10 180:2 199:14 222:2 223:18 223:20 236:12 238:9 242:21 243:10,11 subdividing

197:15 submitted

241:18 subspecies

238:22 substance

66:13 substantial

121:2 201:12 substantially

129:11 145:17 suburbs

111:22 such 11:10,18

48:11 142:9 178:13 sudden 216:9

216:17 suddenly67:9 sufficient

119:21,22 suggest38:16

62:5 176:19 suggesting

43:9 suitable

100:13 sum 16:2 summarized

13:9 summarizing

83:19 summed 16:20 Sunday's

171:5 super87:3

182:19 supervision

247:9 supplemental

63:3 supplier 129:4 suppliers

119:5 supplies 89:2 supply238:2 support71:6 Suppose

52:16 supposed

83:1 135:2 sure 10:17

44:19 49:7 55:15,22 59:10,12,13 60:2 62:13 66:11 67:12 68:19 72:15 73:2 77:1

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 87:11,12 113:3 121:14 121:14 122:3 143:20 147:19 151:20 169:20 182:10 189:1 189:12 192:9 207:10,11 212:3 219:3 234:22 243:5 surged 216:14 surprised

207:16 surprising

206:10 Surveys 11:8 suspect

143:17 211:22 212:5 swapping

217:18 switch 58:8,11

137:7 212:21 213:16,16,18 214:7 215:21 switched

164:7 switching

60:12 218:4 218:11 symbolic

133:16 system 11:17

12:9 13:16 13:17 27:6 28:12,20 39:22 55:3 55:13 85:7 85:18,20 98:15 100:13 122:14 124:19 125:2 126:10 135:21 136:19 156:18 163:1 165:6,9,13 210:15 212:22 214:1 214:2,12 215:13 216:5 216:10,11,15 218:4,4,7,8 systems 11:19

214:21 T T-T 160:11 tab211:2,5,22

212:3 table4:10 8:9 10:1 19:20 51:1 62:19 103:12 162:18 171:22 173:10 208:2 208:8 232:3 232:9,12 235:9,11 236:15 tables 9:15,16

210:17 232:6 tabular 189:5 189:11 tackle21:17 take4:6 19:8

24:2,17,19 25:13,14,17 50:5 53:22 54:6 57:16 68:18 76:14 85:19 95:7 99:9,9 122:20 124:17 139:9 149:3 164:13 176:20 177:20,21 178:14 193:15 198:13 209:17 212:20 224:2 227:20 228:3 234:12 238:18 taken 13:21

24:14 57:18 178:22 198:9 210:19 247:4 247:7 takes 198:21 taking 11:22

46:7 83:14 84:1,4,16 85:7 102:1 108:15 144:5 149:12 talk7:20 29:11

56:1 83:11 124:17 129:5 131:1 139:7 169:2 226:18 233:3 talked 8:15 128:5 129:3 131:14 132:7 213:21,22 237:15 239:12 talking 17:15

27:20 31:6 34:15 60:14 62:9 67:7 72:5,21 74:22 101:3 105:1,13,22 106:18 107:3 107:8 110:10 113:10 117:15 123:21 135:12 137:17 145:22 154:17 160:12 170:22 180:16 182:16 184:11 186:12 190:16 196:3 197:9 200:8 201:3,6,17 212:2,3 214:8 218:4 226:2 228:11 237:17 240:18 241:17 242:5 talks 169:19

208:4 210:14 tall 27:17 28:1 tape 171:6 181:22 182:13 185:15 target229:4 tariff 137:22 138:2 tariffs 138:1,3 138:3,4 task241:21 tax35:17 103:17 Taylor 134:21 136:9 213:2 TDS 105:15 team 176:21 178:7 tear 159:12 technically 76:12 79:15 technician 106:10 technique 170:4 technology

45:15,16 Ted 4:3,12 teens 184:15 telecom 133:6 telepack 196:15,16 telePACS 197:5 telephone

2:20 3:5 tell 22:17

37:10 75:20 90:21 93:20 105:4 108:3 111:12 127:14 137:5 165:12 166:6 166:21 174:7 228:7 telling 59:8 107:19 206:21 tells82:4 temp 182:12

245:16 temperature

28:17 62:15 135:6,20 181:9 183:11 208:22 temperatures

54:16 183:9 184:17 ten 16:7,22

27:12 42:4 61:9 95:11 99:10 126:17 133:9 141:15

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 145:3,21 146:5 148:4 148:6,21 150:17 162:21 164:8 165:10 178:17 188:20 199:22 202:1 216:8 220:9 221:2,11,20 222:6,11,20 223:10 224:21 235:16 242:21 ten-year 146:17 ten,000234:9 tend 13:13 tends 17:9

241:7 Tens201:12 tenth 144:8,12 150:4 tenths230:1,2 term 69:20

80:20 81:7 82:6,19 152:8 204:6 terms62:9

80:9 133:21 135:12 148:1 156:22 172:14 223:18 234:18 243:19 Terps89:9 Terzigni 3:3

89:14 203:16 203:16 205:6 205:13,17 210:12 224:7 test28:22 29:1 34:9,21 37:7 37:19 38:4 38:18 39:2 44:20 45:8 48:13,14,22 49:2,12 50:17 59:21 61:1,12,13 62:7,19 63:1 63:4,10,11 63:22 64:2 64:15,16,17 64:19,20,22 65:1,2,4 67:17 68:17 69:12 70:2,6 70:8,10,14 73:5,9,17 74:14,16,16 74:18 75:11 75:11,19 77:7,9,11 78:2,13,14 78:21 79:2 79:22 80:19 81:3,18,21 82:15 83:3 180:11,14 239:19 tested 37:22 testing 180:8

239:20 than 7:18 15:16 18:2 21:18 28:22 30:6 37:5,11 37:16 39:2 45:22 50:10 52:20 53:11 56:1 58:22 77:6 86:2 107:9 109:9 109:10 112:12 116:1 121:1,4 127:8,20 135:5 142:2 147:13 149:14 151:5 153:9 155:2 161:3 162:5 174:10 178:19 179:19 183:21 186:5 186:7 193:15 202:3 205:11 208:13 211:18 214:16 216:9 221:9 222:2 229:4,12 233:13,14,20 234:21 240:7 242:21,22 thank5:21 15:22 20:12 65:8 79:3 93:22 127:11 151:12 152:2 178:10 179:1 180:18 188:2 195:4,19 205:19 220:21 243:1 246:1 thanks88:4 147:1 161:5 204:11 Tharp3:4 4:22

4:22 20:6,12 35:3 37:18 38:10 51:16 61:2,5,10,15 61:19,22 62:11 63:14 63:16,22 64:7 74:10 74:15 75:15 75:21 76:12 76:17 77:1 78:16,18 103:12 104:8 105:15 114:17 115:5 117:10,19 119:1 140:12 140:18 141:3 141:8 142:13 142:16 145:8 145:11 148:7 162:7 170:12 170:17 171:1 178:18 224:15 228:10,17,21 229:3,10 230:1 that'll 126:6 theirs229:12 themselves

80:13 165:16 theory87:1 there'll 74:9 therefore

47:13 64:20 247:8 Thereupon

246:3 thermal 180:16 thermostat

84:17 98:7,8 99:22 101:9 104:13 106:12,14,20 107:21 128:14,19,20 thermostats 126:12 128:16 thick 154:12 thicker 154:3 thighs 14:11 thing4:5 13:12 16:20 20:16 24:11 27:2 30:1 31:5,10 32:3,13 33:7 35:10 41:1 52:3,6,8 60:13 69:16 75:5 77:8 80:7 82:16 84:8,21,22 85:18 87:4 87:11 90:3,8 94:2,7 97:4 98:13 99:17 102:14 108:5 108:16 109:5 113:16 123:2 123:12 125:17 127:1 130:20 137:2 142:20 149:19 150:13 152:7 155:16 163:21 164:10 175:15 179:3 196:21 197:12 200:11 204:15,19 205:2,3 209:8 215:3 215:7 218:22 219:5,15 221:13 226:7 229:16 230:4 239:22 240:2 241:3 244:16 245:15

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 things9:4,6,11

9:12 10:19 23:4 36:1 43:12 46:18 49:21 59:12 66:13 67:21 94:10 95:19 101:19 102:21 109:1 110:12,17 123:20 127:6 133:7 139:12 140:4 143:1 143:20 147:21 149:9 151:2 153:3 165:16,18 167:2 171:3 175:12 176:13 177:22 193:17 204:2 204:9,22 220:7 221:14 221:15 235:3 237:18 think6:4,5 7:7

7:13,21 9:8 9:14 15:20 16:22 18:12 19:1 20:5,16 20:22 22:9 22:12 23:8 29:17 30:2 32:8,20 33:8 34:14,17,19 35:12 40:22 41:17 42:2 44:15 46:19 49:8 50:16 50:18 51:12 51:13 54:12 55:12 56:16 57:14 59:9 60:2,8 62:22 69:14,22 73:16 76:2,3 78:20 79:12 79:15,20 80:4,16 83:2 87:8 89:3 95:4,22 98:18,19 99:11 100:16 101:2 105:21 113:17 114:14 117:5 119:2,9,9 122:19 123:17,19 124:8,9,15 125:4 128:2 129:5 130:18 132:19 133:4 133:11 134:6 142:2,18 145:4 146:2 146:21 147:17 150:5 150:20 152:15 153:10 156:4 156:7 159:6 159:21 160:11 163:11,17 166:7,16 167:19 168:4 169:3 170:2 171:21 176:21 177:1 177:9,12,17 178:4 179:7 179:9 182:19 182:20 184:14 187:16 188:21 189:17 191:16,20 192:6 194:7 196:18,22 198:10 199:20 200:12,22 202:11 204:9 206:6,13 207:1 208:7 210:10 211:16 212:4 215:2,8 218:13 219:16 220:7 221:6 222:16 222:19 223:21 224:21 226:9 226:13,19 227:4,7,9,10 228:4 229:13 230:8 237:17 240:8,15 241:19 242:19 244:1 244:10 246:1 thinking 33:22

44:14 80:8,8 134:17 157:7 157:7,14 172:19 176:18 181:15 183:14 191:14 200:10 205:5 220:3 234:17 235:16 thinks 176:22 thirty-three

26:5 thorough

219:3 thought7:16 10:1 29:19 39:12 55:19 58:17 64:3 65:13 69:11 69:11,17 79:21 88:22 93:12 111:1 122:8 131:14 152:5 164:16 191:5 198:12 203:13 219:10 thoughts

80:14 243:7 thousand 26:5

95:11 102:13 105:12 128:6 128:7,12 129:9,10 135:19 201:9 201:10 212:12 237:11 thousands 143:13 201:12 threads43:12 three 10:7

24:19 26:1 36:20 45:22 52:9 53:16 74:9 76:11 80:6 83:5 85:12 88:1 96:19 100:17 110:12 128:11,11 131:22 139:11,13 145:22 155:9 160:13 164:19 174:12 184:19 185:16 195:8 197:18 202:6 215:20 217:8 225:1,1 228:7,8 229:1 232:20 three-stage

214:4 215:21 throw85:14

87:4 159:13 throws 87:7 thumbs71:13 tie53:17 tie-downs 110:12 tied 22:10 tight 11:12 193:18 till 165:21 tim 112:7 time 15:10 18:6 22:15 27:22 35:13 50:3,11 56:17,21 65:14 73:6 80:20 81:10 90:8 93:6 106:8,9 118:9,10 119:8 124:3 125:17 132:22 134:5 143:19 152:20 155:3 156:1 166:22 167:1,21 176:4 177:15 177:19 178:15 182:11 183:5 184:7 193:8 193:9,21

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 204:10 205:13 206:18,21 207:2 211:8 211:21 216:14,16 219:15 222:3 235:11 236:2 237:9 244:17 times53:13

59:22 95:11 95:17 105:3 105:9 108:21 111:3,7 126:17 142:21 165:1 196:4 215:3 223:15 tiny238:8 today8:19

29:12 57:7 60:9,14 72:18,18 73:1,20 74:19 75:10 76:1 77:6 79:18,18 123:20,22 132:14 154:7 172:13 176:6 176:11 239:16 today's72:21 toed 210:13 together 103:10 147:2 181:14 187:4 told 77:7 96:3 111:4,6 175:7 tomorrow

245:2,5 ton 6:13,16,17

7:10,11 24:20 27:14 27:17 29:1,2 35:6 43:20 51:1 96:15 102:13 103:2 104:21 105:3 105:17 114:13 120:4 129:7,12 135:15,19,19 135:22 149:3 149:17 157:8 172:16 190:19 199:15 200:1 200:14,19 202:9 244:6 244:6 tonnage212:8 tons7:2 27:12

28:2 34:9 35:14,18 52:19,20 53:3,22 54:1 54:1 85:11 98:5 99:16 100:1 102:7 102:8,12 113:8 114:9 129:17,22,22 130:11,12,15 157:17,19 158:2 167:5 175:7 192:14 194:9,10,13 195:5 197:6 197:7,8,11 197:14,18 198:5 200:7 200:14,15 202:8 217:16 242:22,22 244:7 took 16:18 18:9 150:14 150:15 213:9 tools 194:1 tooth 154:16 top 13:9 16:6 116:18 192:22 226:13 232:9 232:11 233:9 total 17:15

30:5 34:5 36:18 37:22 40:13 44:22 103:11 104:2 104:3,5 114:11 173:8 173:13 175:8 193:5,14 231:12,13,19 tough 58:13 towards 51:19

62:11 67:21 track 174:19 tradeoffs

39:21 traditional

241:1 train 80:3 105:20,22 191:5 Trane5:2,14

22:4 105:11 107:6,8 109:19,19 127:14 141:5 150:12 162:8 238:5,7 transcript

247:5 transferred 153:22 transferring

206:7,19 translate 215:11 trap 185:14 trend 51:19 102:18 trends 19:18 190:11 tries 164:2,9 trillion 192:21 trouble 155:20 true31:22 153:6 247:6 try 14:3 22:13

75:1 102:15 124:7 156:4 165:1,6 176:10 191:16 200:12 203:10,20 204:2 211:20 212:7 235:17 trying 12:2

23:11 41:12 42:14,16 43:12 46:16 49:20,22 50:17 66:13 93:4 98:18 124:12 127:4 132:19 151:17 153:14 155:1 158:20 168:13 177:20 189:6 194:16 195:2 199:20 200:2 200:5 209:3 216:2,19 TSD231:6 tube 179:19 186:14 207:9 207:14 tubes 179:19 186:5,6 tuning 56:3 turn 6:1 57:13

98:17 99:2 179:6 214:13 216:8,11 217:22 turndown

98:15 turned 55:4,14

214:18 turning 54:22

216:16 turnover33:19 155:17 156:4 156:9 turns 162:2 170:10 216:5 216:15 turnsxxx89:5 tweaked 65:16

65:19 twice45:7

71:10 105:4 105:15 145:3 158:19 twist 172:2 two 13:1 14:8 14:10,20 20:10 24:8 24:17 25:21 30:15,17 43:11 45:10 45:19,21 49:18,20 52:17 54:7 61:20 64:11 64:12 70:5 84:1,3,5 97:4 102:8,8 103:10,21 104:4,6 105:2,8 109:1 110:11

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 111:14 113:8 113:9,12 114:8 120:9 128:4 129:10 131:10 147:12,13 157:20 177:20 192:8 192:13,14,21 195:8 197:8 197:8 198:5 198:14 204:1 204:22 205:6 213:19 224:1 224:20 228:13 232:20 237:17 two-dimensi...

45:12 two-part56:4 two-piece

207:11 two-step 120:20 two-thirds

53:5 type 18:8,17 19:17 25:12 26:12 27:6 56:8 88:12 96:12,17 98:8,10 99:22 117:16 128:20 135:11 142:19 171:7 194:21 237:4 types 11:4 13:2 25:3 102:8 128:17 211:5 typewriting

247:8 typical 97:9 98:15 145:9 205:3 212:21 214:12 216:15 217:18 typically38:14

47:5 56:21 78:9 89:15 89:15 98:17 99:2 112:1 142:4 148:7 165:3 186:19 187:12 194:14 196:7 202:18 typo6:10 135:17 U U.S 183:18 Uh-huh28:5

181:10,13 ultimately

65:10 uncertain

168:8 uncertainty

161:17 177:8 uncomforta...

225:5,6 understand

9:11,12 22:15 29:17 31:3 42:22 43:1,1,6 45:11 69:11 79:7 83:5 107:7,8 117:8 124:12 137:9 163:8 166:20 171:5 191:20 216:1 216:20 222:1 230:2 236:17 243:4 understandi...

39:15 57:20 57:21 67:17 67:20 68:19 69:3 70:22 71:7 79:17 132:14 190:8 192:7 196:22 197:13 216:14 understood

69:17 127:4 235:8 unequivocally

110:1 unfairly30:17 unfortunately

204:3 unibody

195:10 unintuitive

40:11 unit25:19

27:12 31:21 33:3,4 34:4 37:2,11,12 37:16,17 43:13,14,16 43:20 46:8 52:21 53:6 54:1,1,2,3 55:2 91:19 98:11,21 100:7 101:4 104:15 115:22 119:3 122:16 123:15 124:18,20 128:12 134:2 135:9 137:8 141:12 142:4 147:14 151:4 151:7 152:14 152:17 157:15 159:7 162:21 163:4 164:21 173:22 190:11 192:3 196:15 198:22 199:3 202:1 204:13 208:13 211:11,12 223:16 232:19 237:20,22 238:8,11,19 UNITARY1:3 United 184:9 units 10:13

12:21 27:17 32:15 52:17 52:22 53:2 54:22 55:14 55:16 91:6 91:18,18 92:4 98:6 115:12 131:17 133:22 149:21 150:1 151:9 153:8 153:20 154:4 157:17 158:4 159:2,8,12 168:22 190:10 196:1 196:3 197:1 201:8 202:9 202:15,16 205:2,4 208:12 211:4 216:21,22,22 237:14 242:5 242:5,6 universities

196:10 unless 109:8

109:11 125:17 149:15 166:9 200:15,17 209:6 223:21 unoccupied

214:19 unrealistic

152:14 unturned

177:18 unusual 138:8 up-sell 164:3 update 170:1

172:12,22 206:14,22 230:5 updated 7:3

10:9 14:2,18 64:21 65:1 244:5,5 updates8:8

10:4,5 137:18 236:6 updating

188:9,19 206:18 upgrade 154:7 upon 70:4

81:17 95:12 96:15 98:8 128:20 135:8 150:22 151:11 176:6 177:12 202:9 209:19 upper54:21

236:17 use 10:5,10,14

10:15 12:2

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 14:7,16 19:7 24:14,21 27:6 29:17 30:5 31:10 31:13,16 33:14 36:14 37:16 39:1 40:4 42:4 44:22 47:4 47:10,13 49:5 51:3,4 51:19 52:18 53:11 63:17 68:16 77:12 81:21 83:15 95:8 111:18 115:15 124:10,10 127:18 129:22 137:18 140:22 149:14 155:6 160:16,22 170:3 173:20 173:21 176:1 209:4 210:5 210:6 211:8 211:19 212:8 217:19 221:14,15 222:14 223:20 224:1 229:8 241:7 244:11,13 useful 49:4

234:22 user 138:8 uses37:5,11

46:6 Usual 210:2 usually 12:12

23:1 164:2 164:16 165:12 197:8 201:11 utilities 138:3 V V99:11 VA 100:9 VAB 123:6 VAC97:1,1,3

99:11 valid 161:20 161:20 validated 161:2 value73:20

75:12 130:3 144:9 146:2 151:17 169:20 170:9 170:10 172:9 226:12 234:12 value-priced 121:13 values 13:19 117:11 138:7 151:16 155:8 158:12 226:9 vap219:7,21 variability 15:8 18:16 20:1 143:17 211:11 variable 12:9 13:16 17:17 17:19 84:6 84:12,14 85:17 86:1 88:10 94:9 94:11,13,15 94:15 96:18 96:22 97:17 100:6 122:8 123:8 127:1 172:3 variable-spe... 128:17 variables

49:21 variation 13:3 variations

56:14 varied 138:10 varies 103:15

212:13 various 14:16

66:18 83:17 115:14 140:20 210:18 vary86:5 100:6,20 138:11 146:10 varying212:8 VAV33:22

85:8 86:3,4 87:12 97:6 98:3,15,22 99:8,18 101:10 124:10,16 125:1,1 126:10 135:2 135:3,18 136:19 190:10 193:9 193:9 196:10 212:22 213:19 214:12,17,21 216:5,11,15 216:22 217:6 217:22 218:3 218:7,8,11 219:1 VCAV99:18 veal 166:16 velocity 214:21 vendors203:3 ventilation

37:20 46:13 99:5 215:4 ventilation-h...

49:1 version 27:13

62:2,3 63:8 64:18 74:10 74:12,17 75:14 76:9 76:13 79:11 81:20 versions77:13 versus31:16

36:7 39:16 49:3 90:7 92:21 100:12 110:4 113:1 114:16 120:19 188:15 192:6 194:5 195:11 215:14 VFD 120:9 VFD's 113:10

113:11 VHD 113:4 via2:20 3:5 view236:5

237:11 vintage 11:12 12:7 13:8,15 14:2,5,9,21 15:3 18:14 18:15 20:9 24:2,7 25:12 25:21,22 26:12,21 vintages 15:7 visit 143:19 145:2 VIV 15:2 voltage 107:12 volume 12:9,9 13:16 34:1,2 36:8 84:2,3,4 84:6,12,12 84:14,15,15 85:7,18,20 86:1,5 88:9,9 88:10 94:9,9 94:11,12,13 94:15 96:13 96:14,18,18 96:21,22 97:16,17 98:2,19 100:3,7,13 102:9,10 113:1,1,5,7 114:8,13,13 114:20 115:2 117:12,18,22 120:21 121:6 123:4,8,10 123:11,13,14 124:19 125:2 125:3,8,12 125:13 134:19 137:14 147:5 147:12,13 172:3,3 216:10,20,22 217:4,10,11 217:12 218:3 218:5 volumes 118:21 vote59:17

60:17 69:6 voting71:11 W wagons 177:3

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 wait 79:21 106:2 159:22 208:4 waiting 76:18

76:19 Wal-Mart 197:10 Walk-in 193:22 walked 185:9 walking 193:19 wall 50:8,8 Waltner3:5 131:4,7,12 want 9:22 17:22 21:1 22:14 31:7 42:9 44:3 49:16 57:13 57:13 59:17 60:17 65:21 66:1 67:8,12 72:3,15,22 74:15,16 79:6,20 80:17 82:18 87:20 97:14 103:7 125:16 125:17 129:4 151:17 153:13 156:1 165:21 169:2 176:8 177:11 177:18,21 178:4,15 179:3 180:21 185:2 189:12 198:4 202:19 207:7 208:2 215:10 217:16 218:13 226:17,18 235:21 236:4 236:6 237:10 240:16 242:12 245:11 wanted 21:19

51:5 79:20 79:21 80:22 96:1 151:20 153:20 164:18 230:16 wants 65:18 184:21 warehouse 15:15 warehousing 193:6,11 warm 50:21 warranties 148:11 warrants 143:2 148:10 warranty 148:1,4,7,15 229:10 washes 122:3 wasn't 35:17

60:12 67:20 89:10 102:18 121:11 138:16 195:16 198:9 200:8 203:12 218:2 219:15 243:15 water81:9 194:2 208:18 210:20 Watt34:4 watts 45:21 way20:17 22:1

22:1,21 28:15 30:1 35:8 37:21 37:22 40:5 48:6 50:8 53:21 67:18 69:19 102:11 107:9 109:17 110:21,21 120:15,19 121:1,4,10 122:10 124:14 125:7 135:4 136:22 141:1 156:3 160:19 162:20 166:10,12 168:9 200:17 202:20 204:15 208:14 215:8 222:15 223:7 223:14 227:4 228:5 231:3 231:7 235:3 235:9 239:19 239:21 240:17,18 243:16 ways83:22 121:5 238:3 we'd 58:14

240:14,16 we're 4:7 10:12 11:22 13:6 14:15 20:22 28:11 28:13 29:5 34:14 36:5 43:6 44:17 45:12 50:19 52:22 54:20 55:14,22 58:9,9 59:11 59:11,14 61:19,22 65:11 66:8 66:17,21 67:6,9,19 68:9,21 69:15 70:22 71:1,7 72:3 72:20 73:3,4 74:7,8 75:3 76:18,19 80:5,6 83:18 84:1,4,8,16 85:1 88:7 89:3,4,5 90:19 91:22 92:3 93:8,14 93:15 94:18 95:10,15 96:8 101:17 102:1,2 105:22 106:18 107:14 108:5 117:15 119:2 124:3,12,14 128:8,14 129:6 131:21 133:19 134:16 135:1 135:10,12 139:3,12,14 139:16,17,21 140:3 142:18 143:13 144:4 144:5 146:4 147:18 149:10 150:3 150:5,7,8 151:5,6,15 152:4 154:6 158:8,20 160:1,12 162:9 168:13 170:11 171:3 171:22 172:2 172:4,11 174:13 176:13 185:17 186:12 189:3 194:7,8 196:1,2 200:19 201:1 208:18,21 209:13 212:12 214:17 216:16 217:10,13,14 217:16 218:6 221:2,19 222:15 223:2 225:6,20 226:1,2,4,9 228:18 235:20 239:15 240:18 241:17 243:3 244:1,4,20 244:22 246:1 we've 9:9 10:4 10:9 13:8 14:2,18 28:19 62:9 63:6 68:6,15 69:19 71:19 71:22 72:4 90:13 91:1 120:13 167:2 178:2 179:3 200:21 202:22 216:20 229:15 236:9 wear 186:7 weary47:12 weather57:4

241:7

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 weatherized

241:10 web 128:15

232:17 webinar3:16

245:14 246:1 weeble 162:11 week50:6

92:2 95:2 128:2 147:3 150:21 171:17 172:18 205:11,12 243:21 244:14 246:2 week's 160:21 weeks 202:22

228:3 weight 11:13 12:19 31:17 95:13 97:19 103:17 104:18 105:7 105:21 108:7 108:22 109:20 110:10 112:9 127:2,5,8,18 128:10 129:15 130:1 185:7 209:13 weighted 18:9

25:18 170:3 221:21,22 weighting 109:13 weightings

25:4 weights 19:10

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4:16,16 45:17,18 46:5,11 47:19,22 89:18,19 113:16 114:3 114:6 115:8 116:5,14,20 117:14 118:3 119:17 120:7 120:12 121:3 121:8,18 122:6,15 126:20 179:13,14 180:4,21 190:5,18,22 191:12 192:2 192:11 196:17 198:2 198:8,18 199:2,9,16 200:19 201:14,20 202:4 203:1 205:8,15,19 206:4,13 207:6,8,17 207:19,22 228:6 Westphanen

3:6 Whatever's 223:13 whatnot 101:18 204:1 233:1 when's 166:22 whenever

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4:19,19 6:2,3 6:15 7:6,11 7:15 8:3,20 9:1,8,17,20 15:9 39:14 39:14,19 40:2,5,22 41:3,7,11,16 42:19 56:20 63:20 100:14 100:14,20 101:1,6,13 112:18,19 113:11 115:1 119:12 120:8 120:17,22 121:5 122:4 122:19 123:10,17 125:5 129:2 129:9 132:6 133:14,17 134:3,11 174:16 181:8 181:10,13 182:2,10 184:13 185:22 186:4 186:14 187:6 188:1,4,7 192:17 194:19 195:7 195:10 198:15 199:12 201:16 202:14 206:10 207:15 214:8 214:14,20 216:19 217:4 218:13 219:20 225:16 226:21 227:19 228:15 229:7 230:11 231:16,21 238:11,17 239:9,17 241:12 242:7 243:9,15 who's 78:8 whole23:5

24:10 53:12 82:13 137:2 160:1 163:20 182:2 186:20 203:17 204:1 204:3,7,8 211:14 236:10 240:2 241:8 wholehearte...

74:21 whom 247:4 Williams 3:8

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 93:21 144:16 144:18 145:4 149:8 221:17 222:10 224:9 224:13,16 willing 11:9 willy-nilly66:6 Wilson 1:8 windshield 143:19 winners

232:22 Winningham

3:9 5:1,1 116:10,17,21 117:7 121:21 122:12,18 162:8 189:20 190:1 winter 181:18 wire 88:3 106:19 107:5 107:20 wiring 107:3,4 within 12:18 15:17 58:10 64:22 81:6 101:11,11 127:19 190:12 192:8 196:20 won't62:13 105:19 107:5 169:14 184:17,18 190:21 214:14 242:18 244:6 244:7 wonder 113:1 wondering 111:1 133:20 146:15 words 30:14 32:10 47:5 97:10 112:11 118:11 129:16,19 182:8 183:19 202:1 210:4 212:22 223:19 241:8 work6:16 8:11

8:14,15 9:22 33:1 36:1 42:17 70:12 107:6 176:8 176:9 177:12 191:15 208:5 208:5 211:5 213:12 241:19 worked 20:15

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5:16 9:2 28:7 62:20 67:15 71:1 72:14 74:5,7 83:2 86:16 126:19 132:13 176:9 190:6 203:4 243:17 works 137:10 world 38:6,14

38:15 117:8 234:2 worried 185:17,18 189:15 worry242:13 worse 21:5

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## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 yesterday4:4

7:22 10:18 20:21 21:5 27:20 88:22 115:9,20 130:10 131:15 132:1 132:7,13 191:13,20 196:18 211:18 237:15 239:13 yesterday's

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104:22 105:9 113:22 147:6 147:6 185:11 zone 11:11

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197:15 202:12 223:10 10-ton 199:22 10-year-old

162:21 10,000 12:12

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168:21 2015 1:7 14:18

74:10,11 76:12 139:11 139:12,15

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 2019 14:4,7

16:20 19:22 24:4 27:2 73:3,14 21 91:5 155:9

157:1,6 158:4,18 159:8 21.1 156:14 21.5 103:5 210210:19 2111 1:8 22 162:1

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42:3 119:2 153:3 166:7 197:11 25,000 189:8

195:5 250 135:4 2508231:17 2600 135:21 27 153:11 2750 104:22 28th 86:18 29.5 122:2 29.9 122:2 3 331:11 36:19

39:11 47:8 47:10,16 48:9 51:22 52:5 98:1 3.5 39:13

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17:4,10 53:3 78:7 98:15 98:16,17 99:4,6 129:12,21,22 130:11 151:10 152:13 153:9 157:8,19 167:5 172:16 178:18 190:19 191:1 194:11,15 197:6 198:5 198:17 199:14 200:7 200:14,19 201:17 202:8 202:9 205:2 214:13,18,19 216:5,8,15 217:22 244:7 30-ton 7:15

27:11 91:17 105:17 141:12 148:22 150:14 151:9 155:11 190:6 192:3 202:8 244:2 30-tons 151:3

157:18 30-year 17:10 30ton 172:17 310 128:22 32 182:12

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138:3 90.1 21:11

30:2 205:21 208:16,19 213:6 215:13 215:18,22 216:3 90.13 7:1 91.1 7:2 9525:17 9920:9 133:17

## Meeting May 12, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 134:7 168:11