Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

1

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT

The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), Office of the Secretary of Transportation, told the 

public of this Future of Aviation Advisory Committee (FAAC) Labor and World-class Workforce

Subcommittee meeting in a Federal Register notice published September 21, 2010 (75 FR 57545)

and revised October 1, 2010 (75 FR 60856).

SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE

Name Affiliation(s)

Patricia A. Friend 

(Subcommittee Chair)

International President Association of Flight Attendants 

(AFA)–Communications Workers of 

America (CWA), American Federation 

of Labor and Congress of Industrial 

Organizations (AFL–CIO)

David Barger President and 

Chief Executive Officer

JetBlue Airways Corporation (JetBlue)

John Conley International Administrative 

Vice President and Air Transport 

Division Director

Transport Workers Union of America 

(TWU), AFL–CIO

Cynthia M. Egnotovich Segment President, Nacelles and 

Interior Systems

Goodrich Company (Goodrich)

Robert L. Lekites President United Parcel Service (UPS) Airlines

Ana McAhron-Schulz Director of Economic and 

Financial Analysis

Air Line Pilots Association, 

International (ALPA)

SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS NOT IN ATTENDANCE

Name Affiliation(s)

Thella F. Bowens President and Chief 

Executive Officer

San Diego County Regional 

Airport Authority

OTHER OFFICIALS PRESENT

Name Affiliation(s)

Terri Williams 

(Designated Federal 

Official (DFO))

Director, Center for 

Organizational Excellence

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

Regis Milan 

(Alternate DFO)

Associate Director and Special 

Assistant to the Deputy Assistant 

Secretary for Aviation and 

International Affairs

U.S. Department of Transportation 

(DOT)
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

2

OTHER PERSONS PRESENT

Name Affiliation(s)

Jan (Jay) Aul FAA

Emily Dziedzic PAI Consulting

Jeffrey Goodell JetBlue

Krista Holliday Goodrich

Dean Hubbard TWU

Joshua Javits Dispute Resolution Services

BACKGROUND AND WELCOMING REMARKS

This is the record of the fourth meeting of the Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee of the 

FAAC, a Federal advisory committee formed pursuant to and subject to the requirements of the 

Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA). 

Ms. Patricia Friend, Subcommittee Chair, AFA-CWA, called the meeting to order at 1:00 p.m. 

She welcomed the subcommittee members and members of the public in attendance. 

Ms. Friend introduced Ms. Terri Williams, FAA, the DFO for the meeting, and asked her to summarize

FACA requirements. Ms. Williams noted the meeting is conducted under FACA and outlined her 

responsibilities as DFO, including maintaining adherence to the agenda, keeping accurate minutes, and 

adjourning the meeting if necessary.

Ms. Williams noted meetings of the subcommittee are accessible to the public and stated interested 

people have the opportunity to submit comments before each meeting either by email at faac@dot.gov

or by submission to the regulatory docket at www.regulations.gov. She added the minutes of each 

meeting will be made available both in the regulatory docket and on the FAAC Web site at 

http://www.dot.gov/faac.

Ms. Williams read the formal statement required under FACA. She noted although the meeting was 

open to the public and members of the public were attending the meeting, participation in the meeting 

was limited to subcommittee members, their alternates, and Federal officials. She added that only 

subcommittee members and their alternates were entitled to vote on subcommittee business. 

Ms. Williams then turned the meeting back over to Ms. Friend to open substantive discussion.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

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DISCUSSION

Ms. Friend introduced Mr. Joshua Javits, Dispute Resolution Services. Mr. Javits thanked the 

subcommittee for the opportunity to speak and acknowledged the importance of the tasking of the 

subcommittee.

Mr. Javits stated labor relations are a vital part of the air carrier industry because of the service nature 

of the business. He stated approximately 70 percent of labor is unionized, which is higher than most 

public sectors. He added, in the aviation industry, relations between labor and management is

essential.

Mr. Javits noted he has three points to make in his presentation. The first is the National Mediation 

Board (NMB) needs a push by the Administration to encourage more effective negotiations. He stated 

the NMB created a Dunlop II committee in 2009 to look at all Federal labor relations laws and issued a 

report in April 2009 (see appendix A). He also noted the NMB is trying to adopt Dunlop II. Mr. Javits 

explained that Dunlop II has been endorsed by both labor and management and he believes this 

movement will go a long way to help labor management relations. He stated prolonged mediation is 

bad for employees and lack of deadlines causes mediation to take longer than necessary. Mr. Javits 

favors adopting Dunlop II and believes the subcommittee should encourage the NMB to continue 

efforts to adopt it. 

Mr. Javits explained the second point focuses on current events. He stated the NMB currently has 

several major air carrier disputes involving bankruptcy. He noted bankruptcy is used to aggregate 

contracts. Mr. Javits stated it is advisable for the Administration to consider labor and transportation 

policies to determine whether intervention is appropriate in cases of prolonged negotiation. He stated 

there must be (1) coordination between the NMB and the White House and (2) an executive order for 

emergency boards that should be ready for action.

Mr. Javits stated the third point is to focus on long-term concerns. He noted the parties involved in 

negotiation have system boards of adjustments to solve grievances, and the aviation industry’s boards 

are a combination of private and public interests. He stated the Secretary of Transportation needs to 

endorse communications so these boards can work together to improve labor/management relations. 

Mr. Javits also noted the negotiation process should be simplified and there should be some dispute 

resolution procedures in place before bankruptcy. This will allow companies to obtain concessions 

where needed. He added adjustments must be made if a contract reflects that a company has no funds; 

parties must be able to adjust to current economic situations. Mr. Javits also stated there needs to be a 

compromise between the current stratified collective bargaining process and monthly negotiations to 

enable parties to change and adapt to a company’s circumstances and the economy. He added the 

current bargaining process may be a thing of the past.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

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Ms. Friend asked the subcommittee if they had any questions for Mr. Javits. Mr. John Conley, TWU, 

asked for clarification about the adoption of Dunlop II. Mr. Javits stated the NMB has adopted parts of 

Dunlop II, but not all of it. He stated there are some pieces still under consideration, but it is critical for 

the NMB to implement the entire document.

Ms. Friend stated the subcommittee should propose to the Secretary of Transportation that both the 

NMB and parties involved in negotiation endorse and adopt all provisions of Dunlop II. 

Ms. Ana McAhron-Schulz, ALPA, stated the subcommittee must come up with recommendations the 

DOT can implement. She stated one proposal is to ensure the NMB has proper resources to streamline 

negotiation, and a second proposal is to endorse Dunlop II. She acknowledged encouraging parties to 

work better together is difficult to implement. Mr. Javits agreed and stated endorsing Dunlop II will 

allow deadlines to be implemented and encourage effectiveness in the bargaining process.

Mr. Robert Lekites, UPS, stated he would like to endorse Dunlop II as a recommendation and have the 

DOT support additional funding needed at the NMB. He stated when parties enter into negotiations, 

the process can be prolonged by a lack of resources to address issues. He added negotiations can also 

be prolonged when companies enter the negotiation process unprepared and inexperienced. He 

suggested proper training of industry professionals will allow for a smoother interaction with the NMB. 

Mr. Javits agreed with Mr. Lekites. Mr. Javits stated the lack of negotiation deadlines creates difficulty

because only about 10 percent of the time is spent in negotiation, while the other 90 percent of the time 

is wasted. He stated the NMB and the parties involved need to get together, focus, and complete 

the negotiation.

Mr. Lekites stated a large part of the problem deals with trust. He commented parties must treat each 

other with dignity and respect for the best interest of the employees. He stated the trust factor works 

well and allows for the process to be expedited. 

Mr. Javits stated the NMB has the power to release parties, but the Administration must understand the 

process and push for an earlier agreement. Mr. Javits stated it is possible to reach negotiation in

6 months rather than 2 years.

Mr. Conley stated the need to concentrate on relationships. He also stated resources are necessary for 

the NMB to operate effectively. Mr. Javits commented the NMB’s travel budget needs help. In 

addition, he stated the NMB needs more aggressive mediators and better training so it can be more

effective. 

Ms. Friend stated the subcommittee is discussing a proposal for institutionalizing an annual labor 

management meeting called by the Secretary of Transportation. She asked Mr. Javits, if this proposal 

is accepted, what are his thoughts on what the agenda and measurable outcomes should be on an annual 

basis? 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

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Mr. Javits stated there are plenty of issues to discuss and a summit is a great forum to discuss these 

issues. However, for the summit to be effective, the Secretary of Transportation must endorse it. 

Mr. Lekites stated a summit would be effective, but it might be difficult for the air carriers and 

leadership to get together. He noted it would be beneficial for the Secretary to sit down with 

companies and unions to assess current workplace situations. 

Mr. Conley stated there are many business model examples outside of the air carrier industry, and he is 

interested in finding out which of these models are successful. He stated all industry executives would 

benefit from listening to those stories. In addition, he stated the endorsement from the Secretary of the 

U.S. Department of Labor or the Secretary of Transportation will encourage companies to see the value 

in discussing problems and finding solutions.

Ms. McAhron-Schulz stated the need to discuss best practices. She brought up the Flightcrew Member 

Duty and Rest Requirements; Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (75 FR 55853, September 14, 2010) that 

will affect current contracts. She stated the summit is a perfect arena to discuss these issues. 

Ms. McAhron-Schulz also acknowledged the benefit of conversations between people about to enter 

negotiations with people who just completed negotiations. 

Ms. Friend inquired if companies would be hesitant to have open discussions for competitive reasons. 

Mr. David Barger, JetBlue, stated he did not think it would be a challenge to remain transparent, 

especially if the Government is involved.

Ms. Friend expressed concern because companies do not want to compete on a safety record. She 

asked which areas may be considered too competitive to discuss in an open forum. Mr. Lekites 

responded this is an issue of trust. He stated each company will operate in its own way, with many 

variables, allowing for the continuance of competition. Mr. Barger added that, in the spirit of 

transparency, companies can remove their logos in a public debate, thereby raising the safety bar. He 

stated a forum with the Secretary of Transportation is an appropriate arena for these debates.

Mr. Barger asked Mr. Javits if the Staggers Rail Act of 1980 offers any lessons for the air carrier

industry. Mr. Javits stated in terms of labor relations, the aviation industry and the rail industry are 

polar opposites. He stated the rail industry has 12 unions nationally that negotiate together. He noted 

work issues are dealt with locally, and the high pay level for low skilled workers usually solves most 

issues. Mr. Javits stated, with the merging nature of the aviation industry, the Staggers Rail Act would 

not be effective. He stated the impact of a strike at a national level would result in action by 

emergency boards and the involvement of political parties.

Ms. Friend thanked Mr. Javits for his time and for his presentation. She stated his presentation helped 

her focus on the proposal to endorse and adopt Dunlop II and formulate ideas for an annual summit. 

She released Mr. Javits so the subcommittee could continue discussions about the proposals.

Mr. Conley suggested the subcommittee review the Dunlop II document to ensure all members want to 

push that proposal through. 
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Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

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Ms. Friend reminded the subcommittee the next FAAC meeting on October 20, 2010, in 

Los Angeles, California, is designed to discuss proposals on identified issues. She stated there is a 

focus area form that must be used for proposals.

Ms. Friend stated the non-consensus issues would serve as topics for summits. She stated the topics of 

foreign repair stations, outsourcing, and joint ventures could be included in the labor management 

summit proposal, so these issues are not forgotten. She commented the concept of the forum could be 

ongoing discussion of the non-consensus items. Mr. Conley agreed these issues will not get solved by 

ignoring them and the summit serves as a great forum for discussion.

Ms. Friend stated she will talk to the DOT for suggestions on how to format the proposal so it 

continues beyond the tenure of the current Secretary of Transportation.

Mr. Regis Milan, DOT, stated the subcommittee should craft their language in the proposals to reflect 

an apolitical stance. This will ensure the summit concept extends beyond changes in the 

Administration and the Secretary of Transportation. 

Ms. Friend stated the task of the FAAC is to stabilize the aviation industry. She stated the Labor and 

World-class Workforce Subcommittee is responsible for helping create an environment where people 

want to come to work. She stated the proposals, which will be presented at the October 20, 2010,

FAAC meeting in Los Angeles, California, focus on recruitment and retention. 

Ms. Friend stated the proposals need to be revised to fit the FAAC template. She suggested the 

subcommittee use a one-page format for non-consensus issues, including a workforce view and an 

industry view. She stated these non-consensus papers will be attached to the annual summit proposal 

as subject suggestions. Ms. Friend recognized the subcommittee will be able to defer discussion of 

these topics to the annual summit, therefore, the discussion will continue beyond the FAAC timeline.

CLOSING REMARKS AND ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS

The subcommittee members delegated the work and agreed to send non-consensus papers to 

Ms. Friend before October 11, 2010. Ms. Friend stated the next FAAC meeting will be on 

October 20, 2010, in Los Angeles, California. She stated the non-consensus papers will be circulated 

to subcommittee members before the Los Angeles, California, meeting.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC

7

ADJOURNMENT

Ms. Williams solicited a motion for adjournment. On motion, duly seconded and approved by the 

majority of the subcommittee members present, the meeting was adjourned.

The meeting adjourned at 2:44 p.m.

I hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing minutes are accurate and complete.

Approved by: ____________________________________________

Dated: __________________________________________________

Ratified on: ______________________________________________
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

October 1, 2010

Communication Workers of America

Washington, DC
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Record of Meeting

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Washington, DC
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Washington, DC
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Washington, DC
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