UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2012-0904 

FAA-2012-0868 

FAA-2012-0869 

FAA-2012-0872 

FAA-2012-0873 

FAA-2012-0874 

FAA-2013-0617 

FAA-2013-0619 

SKYWEST AIRLINES 

Respondent 

Tuesday, 

May 20, 2014 

Courtroom 5223 

U.S. Tax Court 

Wallace Bennett Federal Building 

125 South State Street 

Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 

The hearing convened, pursuant to 

notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

367 

RECEIVED 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

JEFFREY HARPER, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

1601 Lind Avenue Southwest 

Renton, Washington 98057 

(425) 227-2161 

jeffrey.harper®faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL L. DWORKIN, ESQ. 

of: Michael L. Dworkin & Associates 

465 California Street 

Suite 210 

San Francisco, California 94104 

(415) 421-2599 

law®avialex.com 

TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. 

General Counsel 

Skywest Airlines 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

(435) 634-3530 

temerson®skywest.com 

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TABLE OF CONTENTS 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT 

Jeremy Barclay 371 

Jay Christensen 427 

Maggi Aiken 439 

412 

436 

454 

425 

369 

EXHIBITS 

Respondent's 

MARK RECD 

1-1 - Weight and 

Balance Operations Manual 

2-1 - Cargo Load Report 

8 - Customer Service 

Training Bulletin 

7 - Ground Operations 

6-1, 6-2, 6-3 Weight 

and Balance Corrective 

Action Documents 

9 - List of Violations 

10 - Responses to 

letters of investigation 

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391 395 

400 403 

401 403 

406 409 

446 448 

453 454 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:07 a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: On the record. 

4 Be seated. 

5 Mr. Dworkin? 

6 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, thank you, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 I'd like to call Jeremy Barclay. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: State your name for 

10 the record, and spell your first and last 

11 name. 

12 MR. BARCLAY: Jeremy J. Barclay, J13 E-RE-M-Y B-A-RC-L-A-Y. 

14 Whereupon, 

15 JEREMY J. BARCLAY 

16 was called as a witness by the Respondent, and 

17 having been first duly sworn, testified as 

18 follows: 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

21 Q Good morning, Mr. Barclay, how are 

22 you? 

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1 A Doing well, sir. 

2 Q Could you please tell the Court 

3 what your current employment is? 

4 A Yes. I'm the Director of Safety 

5 Policy and Security with Skywest Airlines. 

6 Q And, how long have you held that 

7 position? 

8 A I've been in that position since 

9 April of 2011. 

10 Q And, as Director of Safety Policy 

11 and Security, what are your duties and 

12 responsibilities? 

13 A Primary duties and 

14 responsibilities are to oversee the safety 

15 policy in collaboration with other departments 

16 across the company. And, I also receive 

17 oversee the Security Team Corporate Technical 

18 Publications and Standards in the 

19 implementation of RSMS. And, I interface with 

20 regulatory agencies, such as the FAA, TSA, and 

21 FBI. 

22 Q Would that include oversight over 

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1 Skywest's ground services and aircraft 

2 loading? 

3 A In previous positions I did that. 

4 As part of my current position, the Safety 

5 Management System does cover that element. 

6 Q What was your position prior to 

7 your taking this position in April, 2011? 

8 A I was the Manager of Customer 

9 Service Compliance and Standards. 

10 Q And, what did that position 

11 entail? 

12 A Basically, I was assigned to 

13 oversee the regulatory compliance for the 

14 Customer Service Department, to interface with 

15 DFFA, specifically on any concerns that they 

16 might have, and to develop process 

17 measurements and procedures to ensure 

18 compliance. 

19 Q Did that include aircraft loading 

20 and weight and balance? 

21 A It did. 

22 Q Ground services? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Customer service? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And, how long did you have that 

5 position? 

6 A I was ln that position for, 

7 approximately, six or seven months. 

8 Q And, what was your position prior 

9 to that? 

10 A I was the Manager of Customer 

11 Service Ground Operations Training. 

12 Q And, what were your duties and 

13 responsibilities in that position? 

14 A I had oversight of all of the 

15 below Wlng or ground operations training 

16 standards, which included our new hire 

17 regulatory training, oversight of the 

18 Certified Station Trainer Program, and DICE as 

19 well. 

20 Q And, how long did you have that 

21 position? 

22 A I began that position ln March of 

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1 2008. 

2 Q And, prior to that? 

3 A Prior to that, I was a Supervisor 

4 in that same department, Ground Operations 

5 Training, and a Ground Operations Training 

6 Instructor. 

7 Q For how long? 

8 A I started those in April of 2004, 

9 from the range of April, 2004, to March, 2008. 

10 Q Okay. Any aviation employment 

11 prior to Skywest? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Tell us something about your 

14 education post high school. 

15 A I have a Bachelor of Arts degree 

16 from Westminster College ln Aviation 

17 Management. And, I also hold a Master of 

18 Business Administration from Westminster 

19 College. 

20 Q And, those were issued when? 

21 A The undergraduate degree was in 

22 2002, and the graduate degree was in 2009. 

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1 Q Are you familiar with Schist's 

2 Weight and Balance Program? 

3 A Yes. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

5 Honor? 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: I am showing Mr. 

8 Barclay what has been marked as Exhibit R1-1, 

9 and, Your Honor, I believe I left a copy at 

10 the Bench for you. 

11 (Whereupon, the document was 

12 marked for identification as 

13 Exhibit R1-1. 

14 (Whereupon, the witness was 

15 proffered the document.) 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q Do you have the document in front 

18 of you? 

19 A I do. 

20 Q What is this? 

21 A This is the Weight and Balance 

22 Operations Manual, Standard Practice 4100, 

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1 Original Revision, dated April 1st of 2010. 

2 Q Okay. And, when you say "Standard 

3 Practice 4100,• it's also known as SP 4100. 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q Okay. So, if we use the term SP 

6 we are on the same frequency, correct? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. In the Weight and Balance -

9 - Schist uses an average weights program, is 

10 that correct? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q So, under the average weights 

13 program, passengers are assigned an average 

14 weight, right? 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q So, whether you are a jockey or an 

17 NFL linebacker, all adult makes have the same 

18 weight under the average weights program. 

19 MR. HARPER: Objection, leading. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained, rephrase 

21 the question. 

22 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

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1 Q Do all under the average 

2 weights program, are all passengers assigned 

3 an average weight? 

4 A They are. 

5 Q Okay. So, what is the weight that 

6 is assigned to adult males? 

7 A In the summertime, it's an average 

8 of 190 pounds, and they have a winter weight, 

9 which is 195 pounds. 

10 Q Okay. And, how about adult 

11 females? 

12 A It would be the same for both. 

13 Q How about children? 

14 A Children have a summer weight of 

15 82 pounds, a winter weight of 87 pounds. 

16 Q And, how are children defined, 

17 age-wise? 

18 A If memory serves me correctly, I 

19 believe it's under 12 years of age or 13 years 

2 o of age. 

21 Q Okay. And so, older than that 

22 they are treated as adults? 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q How about baggage? Are they 

3 assigned weights? 

4 A They are. 

5 Q Okay. So, there was some 

6 testimony yesterday regarding a standard check 

7 bags, and what are standard check bags? 

8 A Standard check bags are any bags 

9 that weigh less than 50 pounds. 

10 Q And, what weight are they assigned 

11 for purposes of Schist Average Weights 

12 Program? 

13 A They are assigned 30 pounds. 

14 Q There was also some testimony 

15 about heavy bags. What are heavy bags? 

16 A Heavy bags are any bags that are 

17 over 50 pounds and less than 100 pounds. 

18 Q And, what weight are they 

19 assigned? 

20 A 60 pounds. 

21 Q And, how about plane side valet 

22 bags, or gate check bags, are they assigned a 

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1 weight? 

2 A They are, 30 pounds. 

3 Q And, how about stuff that they put 

4 ln the overhead bin, are they assigned a 

5 weight? 

6 A No, they are not. They are carry 

7 on, a personal item, which is included in the 

8 passenger weight. 

9 Q So, in other words, if I were to 

10 take this litigatim bag and put it in an 

11 overhead bin, it would weigh nothing? 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q If I couldn't get this litigation 

14 bag, because it's so full, in the overhead 

15 bin, and I gave it to the gate agent to check 

16 as a plane side valet bag, what weight would 

17 this bag then have? 

18 A It would be assigned a 30 pound 

19 weight. 

20 Q Now, if I'm on the CRJ, I can 

21 probably get this bag into the overhead bin. 

22 The overhead bins on the Brasilia, the MD 120, 

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1 are a lot smaller. So, what weight would this 

2 bag get on the Brasilia? 

3 A It would be the same for any 

4 aircraft type. 

5 Q The plane side valet bag, 30 

6 pounds. 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q So, in other words, this bag, I 

9 could carry with me on one of the CRJs, put it 

10 intheoverheadbin. Itweighszero. But, on 

11 Brasilia it would weigh 30 pounds. 

12 A If stored in the aft cargo bin, 

13 correct. 

14 Q How about live animals, how are 

15 they treated under the Average Weights 

16 Program? 

17 A There are different ways a live 

18 animal can be transported. They can be 

19 transported as cargo, which requires an actual 

20 weight that's assigned, so they are weighed 

21 and that actual weight is reported on the 

22 cargo loader port. 

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1 They can also be checked as 

2 baggage, and so the same baggage weights would 

3 apply for the average bag weights. If they 

4 weigh less than 50 pounds they would be 

5 counted as 30 pounds average. If they weighed 

6 over 50 pounds up to 100 pounds, they would be 

7 included as a heavy checked bag, or have an 

8 average weight of 60 pounds. 

9 Q Okay. And, how about a service 

10 animal? 

11 A Service animals are -- remain ln 

12 the cabin, and they are not assigned a weight. 

13 Q So, they have a zero weight. 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q So, when you add up all these 

16 weights, which are all averages, and you come 

17 to some total figure, that is based upon the 

18 average weight, is that correct? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q It may not be the actual weight. 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q So, the weight that is on the load 

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1 manifest of the aircraft, is that based on the 

2 actual weight or on the average weights? 

3 A It would be based on the average 

4 weights. 

5 Q So, in other words, because the 

6 load manifest is based on the average weight, 

7 the total weight of the aircraft at the load 

8 manifest may not be the actual weight of the 

9 aircraft. 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q Now, we there was some 

12 testimony yesterday regarding the CLR, or a 

13 cargo load report. What is that? 

14 A The cargo load report is a 

15 worksheet that is used by a loading agent or 

16 a ground operations agent to track the baggage 

17 piece count, and total cargo weight, and any 

18 other notifications that the pilot would need 

19 to be aware of, such as a live animal or a 

20 dangerous goods shipment. 

21 Q And, this is a carbon copy type 

22 form? 

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1 A Correct. It's a two-part 

2 carbonless form. 

3 Q Carbonless? Okay. 

4 So, what happens to the forms, 

5 once they are completed? 

6 A The station maintains a copy of 

7 the form, and they -- about five to seven 

8 minutes prior to departure they will give the 

9 other copy of the form to one of the crew 

10 members on the flight deck for further 

11 calculation. 

12 Q Okay. And, are these forms color 

13 coded, so one copy, the station copy is one 

14 color, the crew copy is another color? 

15 A Yes. The station copy is a white 

16 copy, which is the top copy. And, the one 

17 handed to the flight crew is, generally, a 

18 yellow copy. 

19 Q And, that's given to the crew, you 

20 say, seven minutes before the departure? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q What are the procedures, if any 

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1 exist, for amending the cargo load report? 

2 A Well, before any of the -- if the 

3 cargo load report has already been given to 

4 pilot command, any changes to that weight 

5 that's been given has to be approved by the 

6 pilot command. 

7 And so, depending how many minutes 

8 prior to departure, if the aircraft door is 

9 still open, they would go up onto the flight 

10 deck and verbally communicate that. They 

11 would draw a line through the area that they 

12 were to correct, and make sure that it was 

13 clearly communicated to the pilot command. 

14 If the door is closed, and we've 

15 got a last-minute bag that's arrived at plane 

16 site, again, the same approval has to be 

17 obtained verbally through the pilot command, 

18 and they can do that through an ops radio or 

19 headset communication, and they'll amend the 

20 station copy of the cargo load report at that 

21 point. 

22 Q Okay. Is there any requirement 

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1 the pilot, or the flight crew, amends their 

2 copy of the CLR? 

3 A There's no requirement for that. 

4 However, if there is -- you know, if the door 

5 is open, and we've got time to go up and 

6 verbally amend, we recommend doing that. 

7 But, if the door is closed, 

8 there's not a requirement to do that. 

9 Q Now, on the back side of the CLR, 

10 on the station copy of the CLR, there's 

11 something there, is that correct? 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q And, what is that? 

14 A Those are it's, basically, a 

15 tally sheet for each type of bag that could be 

16 loaded onto an aircraft. So, it breaks down 

17 the baggage, the types of baggage by the cargo 

18 bins that they can be loaded into. And, it 

19 also has, I believe, an at the time add an 

20 area for notes to record and do math on any 

21 cargo weights. 

22 Q Okay. So, that's, basically, to 

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1 help the people on the ground keep track of 

2 the baggage count? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Do you have SP 4100 in front of 

5 you? 

6 A I do. 

7 Q I'm turning to page 3-8, paragraph 

8 B, it talks about change in the aircraft 

9 loading configuration once the load manifest 

10 has been completed. 

11 Is that your understanding of the 

12 procedure, that it's at the discretion of the 

13 pilot in command? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And, in terms of changing the 

16 aircraft loading configuration, what 

17 circumstances would bring that about? 

18 A And again, as previously 

19 mentioned, if we have late baggage that 

20 arrived to the aircraft, and/or passengers, 

21 that it would require recalculation. 

22 Q Okay. So, for instance, let's say 

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1 some late-coming passengers arrived, all the 

2 overhead bins were full. So, what would you 

3 do with all that stuff that was originally 

4 destined for the overhead bin? 

5 A It would have to be given a clean6 sight belly tag and loaded in the back, and 

7 assigned a 30 pound weight. 

8 Q But, after the CLR lS completed, 

9 there are last minute changes that are 

10 permissible, is that correct? 

11 A Correct. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, I'd ask 

13 that Exhibit R1-1 be received. 

14 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 1-1 

17 for identification will be received as 

18 Respondent's 1-1. 

19 (Whereupon, the document that was 

20 previously marked for 

21 identification as Respondent's 

22 Exhibit 1-1, was received in 

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1 evidence.) 

2 (Whereupon, the witness was 

3 proffered the document.) 

4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

5 Q Do you have Exhibit R2-1 in front 

6 of you, sir? 

7 A I do. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: I believe Your Honor 

9 has a copy. 

10 Jim, do you have a copy? 

11 MR. HARPER: Yes. 

12 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

13 Q What is R2-1? 

14 A It's a cargo load report. 

15 Q Well, it's a manual, is it not? 

16 A I'm sorry, I've got this here. 

17 MR. HARPER: No, it's R21, not 2-1. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: That's 

19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Sorry. May I 

21 approach, Your Honor? 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

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1 (Whereupon, the witness was 

2 proffered the document.) 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q Mr. Barclay, what is that? 

5 A These are the aircraft loading 

6 procedures, as detailed in our Station 

7 Operations Manual, Standard Practice Report SP 

8 5500. 

9 Q Okay. And, what does that do? 

10 A It, basically, standardizes the 

11 loading process for all of the personnel 

12 involved, and with the objective to eliminate 

13 weight and balance reporting errors. 

14 Q And, it references a designated 

15 loading agent. What or who is a designated 

16 loading agent? 

17 A A designated loading agent is the 

18 individual that's responsible for making sure 

19 that the baggage and cargo loaded in the 

20 aircraft is accurately reported to the pilot 

21 command. 

22 Q And, does SP 5500 also allow for 

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1 changes to the CLR after it has been prepared 

2 and given to the flight crew? 

3 A It does. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: I'd ask that Exhibit 

5 R2-1, what is SP 5500, be received, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the 

8 absence of any evidence of the revision date, 

9 or when this was applicable, I'm not sure if 

10 there's any relevance to this case. 

11 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

12 Q Mr. Barclay, looking at Exhibit 

13 R2-1, was that the manual that was in effect 

14 at the time that these cases, which is the 

15 subject of the proceeding, arose? 

16 A I believe Revision 18 was, with a 

17 date, if I recall correctly, it's September, 

18 2011. 

19 Q And, in connection with these 

20 cases, were the ground personnel required to 

21 act and fulfill their duties in accordance 

22 with SP 5500? 

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1 A Yes, they were. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: I'd ask that R2-1 be 

3 received, Your Honor. 

4 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondents 2-1 for 

7 identification is received into evidence as 

8 Respondent's 2-1. 

9 (Whereupon, the document that was 

10 previously marked for 

11 identification as Respondent's 

12 Exhibit 2-1, was received in 

13 evidence.) 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, what should 

15 the date of this be then? 

16 MR. DWORKIN: This procedure was, 

17 actually, distributed with a bulletin in April 

18 of 2010, and I believe it -- I'm sorry, April, 

19 2011, and then it was incorporated into a 

20 revision of the Station Operations Manual in 

21 September of 2011. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

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1 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

2 Q Now, these standard practices are 

3 intended to be utilized by Schist personnel, 

4 is that correct? 

5 A That's correct. 

6 Q Okay. Do Schist personnel load 

7 all of Schist aircraft system-wide? 

8 A No. We have several contract 

9 vendor employees that load Schist aircraft 

10 across the system. 

11 Q And, when you say, "contract 

12 vendor employees," what, specifically, do you 

13 mean? 

14 A Our mainline partners have ground 

15 handlers that perform various functions for 

16 aircraft servicing and ground operations. And 

17 so, they will contract on an RFP, a request 

18 for proposal, basis, on a frequency set by 

19 that mainline partner. 

20 Schist lS one of those ground 

21 handling vendors, so to speak, so there is 

22 opportunity for us to ground handle our own 

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1 aircraft, in addition to other regional and/or 

2 mainline aircraft. It just depends on who 

3 wins the bid for the contract. 

4 Q Okay. But, for instance, when you 

5 are talking about your mainline partners, you 

6 are talking about United, and at the time 

7 Continental. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q Delta, and who else at the time 

10 that these cases arose? 

11 A If memory serves me correctly, we 

12 had Delta Global Services, which is a 

13 subsidiary of Delta Airlines Regional Lead 

14 Airline Services. I think those were the main 

15 ones. 

16 Q When you said that many of your 

17 mainline partners would take over this 

18 responsibility, and contract it out, these 

19 contractors were your mainline partners' 

20 contractors, not Schist contractors, is that 

21 correct? 

22 A Correct. In most cases, that's 

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1 the case. 

2 Q Now, were your mainline partners 

3 and your contractors expected to utilize SP 

4 4100 and SP 5500? 

5 A Yes, as per the training that we 

6 provided to them, yes. 

7 Q And, you did provide training to 

8 your mainline partners and their contractors? 

9 A We did. 

10 Q Now, on the -- with respect to the 

11 stations that were involved in these cases, do 

12 we know who the mainline partners were who had 

13 the responsibility for loading and counting 

14 baggage in each of these cases? 

15 A We do. 

16 Q In connectirn with the 

17 investigation of the incidents which give rise 

18 to this case, did you undertake any 

19 investigation, or was that somebody else? 

20 A I had a customer service 

21 compliance and standards specialist that did 

22 the bulk of the investigating. I oversaw the 

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1 process and assisted with the responses. 

2 Q How are the bags, actually, 

3 counted? 

4 A We require a physical count of 

5 baggage, meaning that they'll keep track of 

6 the count in their head, and using the -- it's 

7 not required, but we recommend or encourage 

8 them to use the tally stroke sheet on the back 

9 of the cargo load report. So, it's a very 

10 manual process. 

11 Q So, that's Skywest's process. 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q How about your code share 

14 partners, do they use the same process, or do 

15 they use something else? 

16 A Per the training that we provide, 

17 they should be doing a physical baggage count. 

18 However, there are baggage scanners that exist 

19 in the system that were initially created for 

20 tracking baggage movement through the system, 

21 not, necessarily, weight and balance. So, 

22 sometimes that could be used by a loading 

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1 agent. 

2 Q Going back to Exhibit R1-1, the 

3 cargo load report, could you turn to page 4-

4 13? Let me make sure I have the right page. 

5 Yes, I have the right page. 

6 What is that document depicted on 

7 page 4-13? 

8 A Mine shows the back side of the 

9 cargo load report. 

10 Q And, this is part of the station 

11 copy of the cargo load report. 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q And, after the station completes 

14 the cargo load report, what, if anything, does 

15 the station do with it? 

16 A The station is required to keep 

17 their copy of the cargo load report on file 

18 until the end of the operating day, at which 

19 time they discard it. 

20 Q And, is that a company requirement 

21 or an FAA requirement, to your knowledge? 

22 A That's a company requirement under 

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1 our FAA program. 

2 Q So, the back side of the cargo 

3 load report, the back side of the station copy 

4 of the cargo load report, is a form which 

5 Schist requires to be retained for at least 

6 for one day. 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q Now, there have been some 

9 instances, these included, in which Schist 

10 baggage counts have been off, correct? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q This has gone on for, not just 

13 these cases, but there were some prior cases 

14 as well, is that correct? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q Okay. And, what, if anything, has 

17 Schist done to improve the situation, to 

18 ensure that counting is more accurate? 

19 A We have we have tried to 

20 identify every point of influence possible 

21 with this process, which includes developing 

22 and enhancing standard procedures, 

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1 disseminating training to front-line employees 

2 through our Certified Station Trainer Program, 

3 partnering with other regional carriers in 

4 partner standardization groups. We have 

5 conducted numerous load audits. We've 

6 enhanced the process that we previously used 

7 to kind of know where we are with our load 

8 counts. 

9 I'm sure there's a lot of other 

10 things that we've done, but those are probably 

11 the big ones. 

12 Q What have we done -- now, that's 

13 been with respect to our own employees, is 

14 that correct? 

15 A Yes. Some directly with our own 

16 employees, and some of those did include 

17 partnering over contract employees as well. 

18 Q And so, in other words, you 

19 invited United, and Delta, your code share 

20 partners, to participate in your training. 

21 A That's correct. We, actually, 

22 developed the process for regional carriers 

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1 under that United And Delta. So, we've 

2 enhanced that process significantly from what 

3 it was prior to, and it was driven, primarily, 

4 by Schist. 

5 Q When you said you've, " 

6 developed the process for regional carriers 

7 ... , " so you developed the process, not just 

8 for Schist code sharing of the mainline 

9 employees, but for the process used by other 

10 regional airlines working for the same 

11 carriers? 

12 A That's correct. We invested in 

13 really evaluating the process, partnering with 

14 other carriers to learn best practices, and we 

15 authored and standardized that process in 

16 industry. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

18 Honor? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

20 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

21 Q Mr. Barclay, I'm showing you what 

22 has been marked for identification as Exhibit 

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1 R8. 

2 (Whereupon, the document was 

3 marked for identification as 

4 Respondent's Exhibit R8.) 

5 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 

6 the document. ) 

7 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

8 Q What is that? 

9 A That's Customer Service Training 

10 Bulletin 2010/14, issued November 9th of 2010. 

11 Q And, what was the purpose of this? 

12 A This was this bulletin was 

13 released as a reminder of the current 

14 designated loading agent procedures, or 

15 responsibility of a loading agent to oversee 

16 the loading of the aircraft. And, it also 

17 outlines some of the risks that we had 

18 observed through FAA surveillance and our own 

19 potential threats to the process that could, 

20 potentially, result in error. 

21 Q And, this was disseminated to 

22 whom? 

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1 A This was disseminated to our 

2 Schist employees. 

3 Q Was it disseminated to any of the 

4 mainline partners? 

5 A I don't recall that this one was. 

6 It may or may not have been. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

8 Honor? 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

10 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

11 Q I'm showing you what has been 

12 marked as Exhibit R7. 

13 (Whereupcn, the document was 

14 marked for identification as 

15 Respondent's Exhibit No. R7.) 

16 (Whereupon, the witness was 

17 proffered the document.) 

18 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

19 Q What is that? 

20 A This is a re-issue, or it's 

21 entitled, "Ground Operations Bulletin 2011-

22 04," issued on April 7th in 2011. 

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1 Q Okay. And, I notice that the 

2 applicability line at the top says, "All 

3 employees responsible for ground handling 

4 Schist aircraft," so was that intended for 

5 just Schist, or was that intended for your 

6 code share partners and their contractors as 

7 well? 

8 A It was included for both Schist 

9 and contract employees. 

10 Q So, in other words, the customer 

11 service bulletin of 2011 was intended to be 

12 more encompassing. 

13 A Correct. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, I'd ask 

15 that R7 and R8 be received. 

16 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: R7 and 8 did you 

19 ask for? 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: R7 and 8 for 

22 identification are received into evidence, 

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1 Respondent's 7 and 8. 

2 (Whereupon, the documents that 

3 were previously marked for 

4 identification as Respondent's 

5 Exhibits R7 and R8, were received 

6 in evidence. ) 

7 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

8 Q In connecti= with Skywest's 

9 investigation of these incidents, you 

10 indicated that they have taken a number of 

11 corrective actions, is that correct? 

12 A That's correct, yes. 

13 Q In connection with these 

14 corrective actions, did Schist invite FAA 

15 participation? 

16 A We did, specifically, with our 

17 Certified Station Trainer Conferences, which 

18 we held annually during Q2 or Q3 of each year, 

19 where they were invited to come and 

20 participate, and even at times present their 

21 findings and surveillance. 

22 Q And, did they participate and 

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1 present? 

2 A They did. 

3 Q With respect to Skywest's 

4 corrective actions, have you ever received any 

5 FAA feedback as to the quality, the 

6 presentation, or the completeness of the 

7 presentation, or the comprehensivenern or 

8 effectiveness of the presentation? 

9 A They, obviously, would communicate 

10 concern for the process. When they attended 

ll the conferences, most of the feedback that we 

12 received was always very positive. So, you 

13 know, specific cite, I probably tell you exact 

14 and from whom, but in general it was very 

15 positive feedback. 

16 Q And, when we say the FAA, we are 

17 talking about what, the CMO? 

18 A Correct, they would send either an 

19 inspector or supervisor to attend. At times, 

20 our principal operations inspector would 

21 intend as well. 

22 Q Did the FAA ever communicate to 

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1 you or to anybody at Schist to your knowledge, 

2 that Schist efforts were not enough, or 

3 insufficient, or defective? 

4 A Again, primarily, just concern 

5 for, you know, the alleged violations at hand. 

6 But, for the most part, we had monthly 

7 telecons. If memory serves me correctly, we 

8 had monthly telecons with them, explaining 

9 what our corrective actions were in order, 

10 made attempts to be very transparent, and 

11 during those conversations we didn't receive 

12 any negative feedback on those. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, can I 

14 have about two minutes. I just need to 

15 assemble an exhibit. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 

19 record. 

20 (Whereupon, at 9:41a.m., a recess 

2 1 until 9 : 4 4 a . m. ) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the record. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

2 approach, Your Honor? 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

4 (Whereupon, the witness was 

5 proffered the documents.) 

6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

7 Q Mr. Barclay, I've just given you 

8 what has been marked for identification as 

9 Exhibits R6-1, R6-2, and R6-3. 

10 (Whereupon, the witness was 

11 proffered the documents.) 

12 (Whereupon, the documents were 

13 marked for identification as 

14 Respondent's Exhibit Nos. R6-1, R 

15 6-2, and R6-3.) 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q What are these? 

18 A R6-1 is a list of Weight and 

19 Balance Corrective Actions. R6-2 is the same, 

20 basically, in a different format that we used 

21 to communicate with our Certificate Management 

22 Office, and R6-3 is a list of approximated 

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1 weight and balance costs as a result of the 

2 corrective actions. 

3 Q So, R6-1, are you the author of 

4 that document? 

5 A I am. 

6 Q And, this identifies all of the 

7 workshops, and training, and conferences that 

8 Schist has conducted to correct the baggage 

9 miscount situation? 

10 A It does. 

11 Q And, R6-2, did you author this as 

12 well? 

13 A I did. 

14 Q And, this is what was presented to 

15 the FAA CMO? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And, R6-3, you have Schist Weight 

18 and Balance Corrective Action costs. Did you 

19 prepare this as well? 

20 A I did. 

21 Q And, these costs look like they 

22 began accruing in 2009, because you have a 

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1 Certified Station Trainer Conference in 2009? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q And, the corrective action costs 

4 go up through when, sir? 

5 A I believe the very last one is 

6 based on our Basic Station Training through 

7 March 31st of 2014. 

8 Q Okay. So, the total cost to 

9 Schist Airlines for all of these corrective 

10 actions since 2009 has been what? 

11 A We calculate a very conservative 

12 approximate, it's just over $560,000, and 

13 that's based on a prorated cost for our 

14 Station Training Conferences and the 

15 percentage that we focused on weight and 

16 balance training. 

17 Q Okay. So, you have on the first 

18 page of R6-3, you have an approximate total 

19 cost of $842,942.88, and then your prorated it 

20 to account for the baggage counting, baggage 

21 loading issues. 

22 A Correct. Yes, we included the 

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1 total known costs of the conference, and then 

2 prorated them. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: I'd ask that R6-l, -

4 2, -3 be received. 

5 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 6-1, 

8 6-2 and 6-3 for identification are received 

9 into evidence as Respondent's 6-1, 6-2 and 6-

10 3. 

11 (Whereupon, the documents that was 

12 previously marked for 

13 identification as Respondent's 

14 Exhibit Nos. R6-1, R6-2 and R6-3, 

15 were received in evidence.) 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q Okay. So, after the expenditure 

18 of all this money, and all these conferences 

19 and training sessions, is it working? 

20 A That's a big question. We know 

21 that there's awareness of this challenge. 

22 We've seen increased collaboration and 

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1 communication from our front-line operations 

2 when challenges arise. And, we've had a lot 

3 of back and forth with them on ways to enhance 

4 the processes that we set out and designed. 

5 Q You say " ... when the challenges 

6 arise ... , " what challenges? 

7 A There are/ obviously, human 

8 factors that are involved in this process. 

9 And so, errors do occur from time to time. 

10 When they do occur, they are immediately 

11 reported into the Customer Service Department. 

12 Q Were you here during the playback 

13 of Mr. Salamone's deposition? 

14 A I was. 

15 Q In that deposition, you referred 

16 to human factors and the aircraft ramp as 

17 being a relatively hostile environment. Have 

18 you ever spent time on the ramp? 

19 A I have. 

20 Q Okay. And, is the ramp a 

21 relatively hostile environment? 

22 A Yes, there's a lot happening on 

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1 the ramp, and the tempo is very fast. 

2 Q Such as, what's happening? 

3 A Depending on where you are, you 

4 know, anywhere from a major hub to a medium5 sized or small station, there's different 

6 activities going on. 

7 In a hub environment, you've got 

8 multiple baggage runners that are delivering 

9 baggage and collecting baggage plane site. 

10 You've got multiple aircraft that are being 

11 dispatched out the gate. You've got multiple 

12 aircraft that are arriving and being serviced. 

13 There's a lot of communication 

14 that's happening between all of the work 

15 groups to receive and dispatch the aircraft, 

16 so that there's quite a bit of activity going 

17 on. 

18 Q How about how about 

19 environmental conditions, weather, the 

20 elements? 

21 A Yes, I mean, just depending on 

22 location, you can be any type of weather 

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1 situation, unless lightning occurs, and then 

2 they evacuate the ramp. But, you can be in 

3 rain, snow, heat, wind, any type of weather 

4 condition. 

5 Q And, is it noisy? 

6 A It's very noisy. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

8 questions, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

10 Do you need a few minutes, Mr. 

11 Harper, or are you okay? 

12 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor, I 

13 think I can get there fairly readily. 

14 CROSS EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. HARPER: 

16 Q Mr. Barclay, if I could ask you to 

17 look at Exhibit R1-1. 

18 A Okay. 

19 Q And, look to page 3-6' and I'd 

20 like you to look at paragraph I4 right down 

21 the middle of the page. That paragraph reads, 

22 "Any live animals loaded must be noted on the 

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1 COR,n correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q And, if you could turn with me to 

4 page 3-8, and if you could look at paragraph 

5 3E, and I'd like to look at the last sentence 

6 of that paragraph which reads,n The PIC is 

7 responsible for revising the load manifest and 

8 notifying Station Operations of any changes 

9 prior to leaving the ramp area, n correct? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q And, that's changes to the load 

12 manifest, correct? 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q If you could turn to page 4-8, if 

15 you could look at paragraph 7E(l) (g). That 

16 paragraph reads, "Correct both copies of the 

17 COR whenever the flight deck crew allows 

18 changes to a two-part COR,n correct? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q Paragraph-- I'm sorry, page 4-9, 

21 paragraph F, looking at the last sentence, 

22 "Any approved changes must be made to the COR, 

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1 both the white and yellow copies when a two2 part COR lS used, and load manifest. 

3 Communication between ground person on the PIC 

4 must confirm changes made are reflected 

5 accurately on all documents," is that correct? 

6 A Yes, that's correct. And again, I 

7 explained there's conditions, based on the 

8 door being open and closed. 

9 Q But, at the end of the day, the 

10 load manifest has to correct what's, actually, 

11 on board the aircraft. 

12 A Correct. That's correct. 

13 Q And, the CORs have to be reflected 

14 --changed to reflect any last-minute changes, 

15 correct? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q Mr. Barclay, you testified a 

18 little bit about how ground handling is 

19 contracted out, and that Schist is one of the 

20 companies that bids on those contracts. 

21 I trust you know that no matter 

22 who handles the ground handling, Schist was 

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1 still the operator of all these flights, 

2 correct? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Q If you could turn with me to 

5 Exhibit R2-1. 

6 MR. HARPER: And, for the record, 

7 has this exhibit been admitted? 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which one? 

9 MR. HARPER: Exhibit R2-1. I don't 

10 show that it was, but I wanted to see. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, I show that 

12 yes, I've got it marked as received. 

13 BY MR. HARPER: 

14 Q If you could turn to the last page 

15 of that document, page 6 of 6, and if you 

16 could just look at, there's a note in the 

17 middle of that page, and it reads, "Once the 

18 load manifest has been completed, any changes 

19 to the aircraft load configuration is at the 

20 discretion and approval of the PIC. The PIC 

21 is responsible for revising the load manifest 

22 and notifying Station Operations of any 

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1 changes prior to leaving the ramp area," is 

2 that correct? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q And, right below that there's a 

5 part that reads, "Warning, inaccurate loading 

6 reporting, or failure to report information, 

7 can cause issues with aircraft performance and 

8 handling, resulting in the endangerment of 

9 human life," correct? 

10 A Correct. 

11 MR. HARPER: If you could just give 

12 me a moment. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

14 BY MR. HARPER: 

15 Q If you could turn with me to 

16 Exhibit R8. 

17 A Okay. 

18 Q And, if you could just confirm 

19 that this document was issued on 9 November, 

20 2010, correct? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q And, that predates all of the 

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1 flights that we were discussing here yesterday 

2 and today, correct? 

3 A I 

4 Q I think the earliest flight at 

5 issue today was March 3, 2011. 

6 A Okay. If that's accurate, then 

7 yes. 

8 Q If you could turn with me to the 

9 last page of that document, paragraph E, that 

10 reads, "Any change to the aircraft load 

11 configuration, once the load manifest has been 

12 completed, is at the discretion and approval 

13 of the PIC. The PIC is responsible for 

14 revising the load manifest and notifying 

15 Station Operations of any changes prior to 

16 leaving the ramp area." Did I get that right? 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q I'd like you to look now at 

19 Exhibit R7, and if you could just verify that 

20 the date on the top is 7 April, 2011. 

21 A It is. 

22 Q And, that creates some of the 

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1 violations that we are discussing here today, 

2 correct? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q I believe the latest violation we 

5 are discussing is November 16, 2011. 

6 A Okay. 

7 Q If you could turn with me to 

8 Exhibit R6-1. 

9 A Okay. 

10 Q And, just going through here, 

11 everything on the first page occurred in 2010, 

12 correct? 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q Again, before all the violations 

15 we are discussing here today. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And, if you turn to page two, it 

18 looks like most of the items on this page were 

19 done in 2010 or early 2011, again, before the 

20 violations we are discussing today, correct? 

21 A 

22 Q 

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1 communication for pilots in training, that ran 

2 through April, 2011, so maybe a couple of the 

3 violations occurred before that was an issue. 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q On page three, it looks like all 

6 of those things were also in 2011, before or 

7 around the time that the violations in these 

8 cases were occurring, correct? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And, it's not until we get to page 

11 four towards the bottom, where we start having 

12 contract station aircraft loading calls, 

13 designating loading agent arm bands, basic 

14 station training, initial classes on weight 

15 and balance training, where we are really 

16 looking anything done by Schist after the 

17 violations occurred, clearly after that. 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q If you could look now at Exhibit 

20 R6-3. Well, actually, let's look at R6-l. 

21 The CST Conference Weight and 

22 Balance Workshops you talked about on the 

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1 first page that was one course of training, 

2 one block of training, at the conference, it 

3 wasn't the entire conference, correct? 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q The conference would have been 

6 held even if that course hadn't been offered, 

7 correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q How about the conference in 2010, 

10 Weight and Balance Workshop, but again, that's 

11 only one workshop at that conference, right? 

12 A There were multiple workshops that 

13 were given for a specified audience. 

14 Q And so, that conference would have 

15 been held, ln any event, there were other 

16 things discussed at the conference, the 

17 conference was still going to be held. 

18 A That's correct. 

19 Q I believe, let me see here if I 

20 got this date correctly, that in 2009 you got 

21 a Master's in Business Administration? 

22 A I did. 

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1 Q So, you are familiar with the 

2 concept of Sunk cost, correct? 

3 A Sunk cost, I've heard the term 

4 before. 

5 Q If you have a Master's in Business 

6 Administration, you understand basic 

7 accounting principles, correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q You understand sunk cost is a cost 

10 that's expended anyway, and so you don't 

11 calculate it, you don't factor it into your 

12 cost benefit analysis, because the money is 

13 gone, would you agree with that? 

14 A Per your definition, yes. 

15 Q So, if the conferences were being 

16 held anyway, essentially, that's a sunk cost 

17 for Schist Airlines in relation to the Weight 

18 and Balance Program, correct? People are 

19 going to be there anyway, you can prorate it, 

2 0 but if you weren't discussing weight and 

21 balance you would be discussing something 

22 else, correct? 

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1 A I'd have to disagree. You know, 

2 this was one of the main driving factors of 

3 the conferences. And so, we get a list of 

4 topics together that we feel are pertinent to 

5 the operation, and --

6 Q I'm sorry, you said it was one of 

7 the main driving factors for the conferences, 

8 can you look at R6-3? 

9 A Okay. 

10 Q In 2009, it looks like at best 

11 weight and balance was 10 percent of the 

12 conference, according to your cost 

13 declarations. 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q It wasn't until 2011 where it even 

16 became the majority of the conference, and 

17 even then only 60 percent, correct? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q Now, Mr. Barclay, one of the 

20 things you testified that Schist is doing in 

21 an effort to get ahead of this problem is you 

22 are continuing to conduct audits of the Weight 

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1 and Balance Program. Isn't it true that those 

2 audits show that there is still an issue with 

3 weight and balance, these sorts of issues on 

4 Schist aircraft today? 

5 A There are errors that do occur, 

6 that's correct. 

7 Q And, one of the questions Mr. 

8 Dworkin asked was, I want to make sure I get 

9 this right, is it working, is all this stuff 

10 working, wouldn't you say that there may be 

11 improvements being made, but at the end of the 

12 day you just told us that Schist still has 

13 problems and issues that it's not working, 

14 because you still have the problem. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Objection, is that a 

16 question? 

17 MR. HARPER: Yes, it is. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, I thought it was 

19 testimony. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You can 

21 answer if you can. 

22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Can you 

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1 restate the question for me? 

2 BY MR. HARPER: 

3 Q Well, you just testified that 

4 Schist is still having these sorts of issues, 

5 correct? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q Even today, as we are sitting in 

8 the courtroom, there is a possibility that 

9 Schist aircraft on the ramp is being loaded 

10 incorrectly, the cargo load report and load 

11 manifest are incorrect, right? 

12 A It's possible. 

13 Q So, wouldn't you say that all of 

14 these things that Schist has done have not, 

15 actually, fixed the issue? 

16 A If fixing the issue is perfection, 

17 then my response would be no. 

18 Q Thank you. 

19 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q Mr. Barclay, there is still human 

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1 error, is that correct? 

2 A There is. 

3 Q And, no amount of training can get 

4 rid of simple human error, correct? 

5 A Probably not. 

6 Q With respect to Exhibits R6-1, -2, 

7 -3, the corrective action started in 2009. 

8 These cases, which are the subject of the 

9 hearing today, started in March of 2011. Why 

10 were corrective actions being taken as early 

11 as 2009? 

12 A Obviously, there were previous 

13 cases that were involved, but we, again, were 

14 trying to get our arms wrapped around, you 

15 know, alleged violations by taking action, 

16 getting out into the operation, taking a 

17 serious look at the current process that was 

18 in place, any ways that we could enhance our 

19 training or direction to our employees. 

20 Q And, what was the disposition of 

21 those previous cases, were they settled with 

22 the FAA? 

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1 A Some I believe some of them 

2 were, and then others were in a hearing, such 

3 as what we are doing today. 

4 Q Okay. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: No further questions. 

6 MR. HARPER: No redirect or 

7 recross. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

9 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

10 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

11 hearing. You may step down and check with Mr. 

12 Dworkin, you may or may not be excused. 

13 (Whereupon, the witness was 

14 excused.) 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

16 Jay Christensen, please. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated, 

18 state your name for the record and spell your 

19 first and last name. 

20 MR. CHRISTENSEN: My name is Jay 

21 Christensen, J-A-Y C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N-S-E-N. 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

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1 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

2 Q Mr. Christensen, what is your 

3 employment? 

4 A I am the Manager of Customer 

5 Service Ground Operations Training, with 

6 Schist Airlines. 

7 Q And, how long have you held that 

8 position? 

9 A I've been in that position since 

10 September of 2010. 

11 Q And, what was your employment 

12 prior to September of 2010, with Schist? 

13 A Yes. I've been with Schist since 

14 September of 2003. 

15 Q So, immediately prior to your 

16 present position, what was your position at 

17 Schist? 

18 A I was a Supervisor over CS Ground 

19 Operations Training from January of 2008. 

20 Q And, what were your duties and 

21 responsibilities in that position? 

22 A As the supervisor, primarily, I 

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1 oversaw the development of the varlous 

2 training that we were putting together in my 

3 department. So, that would include the 

4 training modules for initial new hire 

5 training, and also a lot of computer-based 

6 training, getting the bulk of the rna terial put 

7 together for developers. 

8 Q Would that include aircraft 

9 loading? 

10 A Yes, it does. 

11 Q Okay. And, prior to 2008, what 

12 was your employment? 

13 A Prior to that, I came into the 

14 Training Department in March of 2005, that's 

15 where I began as an Instructor, Customer 

16 Service Ground Operations Training, and then 

17 prior to that I worked on the ramp as a Ramp 

18 Agent ln Salt Lake City. 

19 Q So, you, actually, have ramp 

20 experience. 

21 A I do. 

22 Q Is the ramp -- there has been some 

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1 testimony that the ramp can be a hostile 

2 environment. Is it a hostile environment? 

3 A Yes. I mean, it's when you 

4 define hostile as, there's just a million 

5 things going on all at the same time, and 

6 very, very chaotic, that's a good way I would 

7 explain it. 

8 Q How about environmental factors? 

9 A Yes, you can work in just about 

10 any weather conditions. As Jeremy Barclay 

11 testified rain, snow, sleet, extremely hot 

12 temperatures. 

13 Q How about life conditions? 

14 A You can work daytime, nighttime, 

15 sometimes visibility can be definitely 

16 impaired. 

17 Q How about noise? 

18 A Very noisy environment. 

19 Typically, you know, we will be wearing ear 

20 plugs most of the day. 

21 Q And, that was your ramp 

22 experience, your ramp agent position, was your 

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1 initial position with Schist, is that correct? 

2 A That is correct. 

3 Q Okay. Any aviation employment 

4 prior to Schist? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Okay. Can you tell us something 

7 about your education? 

8 A I've attended college for, 

9 approximately, four, four to five years. I 

10 didn't receive a degree, but I attended 

11 college from pretty much 1988 to about 1993. 

12 Q As the Manager of Customer Service 

13 Compliance and Standards, what are your 

14 principal duties and responsibilities? 

15 A That title is, actually, 

16 incorrect. 

17 Q Oh, I'm sorry. 

18 A I'm the Manager of CS, Customer 

19 Service, Ground Operations Training. 

20 Q Customer Service Ground Operations 

21 Training. What are your principal duties and 

22 responsibilities? 

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1 A Well, I oversee the ramp or CS 

2 ground operations training and policy and 

3 procedure. That entails overseeing our 

4 initial new hire training, which we call Basic 

5 Station Training. But also, we oversee the 

6 CST program, or Certified Station Trainer 

7 program. And, pretty much anything ramp 

8 operations related, which would include de9 icing, weight and balance, that sort of thing. 

10 Q And, when you refer to CS, you are 

11 talking about Customer Service. 

12 A Customer Service, yes. 

13 Q Okay. Now, you, basically, have 

14 the position today that Mr. Barclay had up 

15 through about 2011, before assuming his 

16 present position, is that correct? 

17 A That is correct. 

18 Q And, what, if any, involvement 

19 have you had with these cases that bring us 

20 here together today? 

21 A Well, it's kind of interesting, 

22 because Jeremy and I, I mean, we shared a lot 

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1 of the load. He was the primary person 

2 involved in getting the procedures together, 

3 writing them, but then I would kind of take it 

4 to the next step and, actually, get them 

5 inserted into our manuals. 

6 When Jeremy left the manager 

7 position as Customer Service Training Manager, 

8 and moved into Compliance, he took a lot of 

9 that with him, but I continued to update our 

10 manuals, primarily, standard practice, SP 

11 5500, for the Station Operations Manual, and 

12 then also SP 4100, the Weight and Balance 

13 Operations Manual. So, I did continue to 

14 oversee those after Jeremy left. 

15 Q Okay. So, would it be fair to say 

16 that subsequent to the manuals which are 

17 already in evidence, there were additional 

18 revisions to those manuals? 

19 A Yes, that is correct. 

20 Q And, the revisions were for what 

21 purpose? 

22 A Well, in my position, I'm 

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1 constantly striving to improve our processes 

2 and procedures . So, I, typically, have a 

3 revision that is in the works at some point, 

4 either close to publishing it, or just 

5 starting it out, or at some step in between 

6 there, but we are constantly revising our 

7 procedures and trying to make them better. 

8 Q So, with respect to weight and 

9 balance training, have you implemented any 

10 changes in the training given to customer 

11 service agents and ground service personnel in 

12 loading and weight and balance? 

13 A Yes, that's been a constant 

14 improvement, pretty much from the time we 

15 started to hear of these cases, knowing that 

16 there were issues out there in the station, 

17 and some of these alleged violations. 

18 We expanded our training 

19 curriculum substantially. We started about 45 

20 of training back early when I was in the 

21 Department, which pretty much included how to 

22 fill out a CLR, or cargo load report. We 

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1 expanded that to two hours, then expanded it 

2 to four hours. 

3 Q And, this is initial training for 

4 new hires? 

5 A And, this is initial training for 

6 new hires that have come in to Customer 

7 Service. 

8 Q And, do you provide recurrent 

9 training? 

10 A We do have recurrent training that 

11 does talk about weight and balance as well, 

12 yes. 

13 Q And, what, if any, changes have 

14 been made to SP 4100 under your supervision? 

15 A For that manual, we just to 

16 help agents out, as they are completing weight 

17 and balance, we've added some additional 

18 examples of how a completed cargo load report 

19 would look, that's accurate. 

20 Q And, how about with respect to the 

21 Station Operations Manual, SP 5500, what, if 

22 any, changes have you made to that? 

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1 A Well, Jeremy testified to a couple 

2 of the things that we've done, and mostly it's 

3 recommended best practices that we've enacted 

4 that we felt would help with communicating the 

5 correct weight and balance. One of those is 

6 the verbal verification of the CLR contents to 

7 the pilot in command, or we'll, actually, go 

8 on board the plane and communicate the numbers 

9 that we've written down for the CLR. 

10 And then, we've also added the 

11 tally sheet on the back, as a recommended best 

12 practice, that the company could keep count. 

13 Q So, have you completed these 

14 improvements, or is this an ongoing process? 

15 A The improvements we talked about 

16 have been completed, but it's an ongoing 

17 process as far as finding new and better ways 

18 of doing this. 

19 Q Is there anything else that Schist 

20 could possibly do to prevent recurrence of the 

21 matters that are the subject of this 

22 proceeding? 

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1 A You know, I mean, I think we are 

2 constantly striving to get better, and I think 

3 we've done, in my mind to this point, we've 

4 done everything we possibly can do, and, you 

5 know, we'll continue to strive to get better, 

6 but I don't think so. 

7 Q Because of the human factor? 

8 A Exactly. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: No further questions. 

10 Thank you. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

12 CROSS EXAMINATION 

13 BY MR. HARPER: 

14 Q Mr. Christensen, I believe you 

15 said you started off at Schist working on the 

16 ramp? 

17 A That is correct. 

18 Q Wouldn't it be true that working 

19 on the ramp one of the things that makes it a 

2 0 hostile environment, as we've referred to 

21 repeatedly today, is that there's time 

22 pressure to get everything done quickly, get 

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1 the aircraft pushed for an on-time departure? 

2 A I would say that's correct. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 MR. HARPER: I have no further 

5 questions. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 

7 Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

9 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

10 with anybody prior the conclusion of the 

11 hearing. 

12 You may step down, and it's 

13 subject to Counsel as to whether or not you 

14 will be excused. 

15 (Whereupon, the witness was 

16 excused.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Where are we? 

18 MR. DWORKIN: I have one more 

19 witness. This would probably be a good time 

20 for a short break. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don' t we do 

22 that. Let' s -- I've got -- you have your 

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1 choice of times, we are moving along, I've got 

2 10:16, let's take about a 15 minute break and 

3 go back on the record. 

4 Off the record. 

5 (Whereupon, at 10:16 a.m., a 

6 recess until 10:43 a.m.) 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the record. 

8 Please, be seated. 

9 State your full name for the 

10 record, and spell your first and last name. 

11 MS. AIKEN: Maggi, -A-G-G-I, Aiken, 

12 A-I-K-E-N. 

13 Whereupon, 

14 MAGGI AIKEN 

15 was called as a witness by the Respondent, and 

16 having been first duly sworn, testified as 

17 follows: 

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

19 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

20 Q Good morning, Ms. Aiken. 

21 A Good morning. 

22 Q What is your employment? 

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1 A I'm Director of Customer Service 

2 Training and Standards. 

3 Q For? 

4 A Schist Airlines. 

5 Q And, how long have you had this 

6 position? 

7 A Since, approximately, 1987-88. 

8 Q What was your prior employment? 

9 A I was a Station Manager of a small 

10 station, and a Station Agent. 

11 Q For Schist? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And, do you have any aviation 

14 experience or aviation employment other than 

15 your employment with Schist Airlines? 

16 A No. I've been with them 3 3 years. 

17 Q Could you tell us something about 

18 your education post high school? 

19 A I have an undergrad degree in 

20 Education, and a Master's degree from Embry21 Riddle ln Business and Aviation Aerospace. 

22 Q And, your undergraduate degree is 

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1 from which institution? 

2 A Embry-Riddle. Oh, the undergrad? 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A I'm sorry. Central Washington 

5 University, Washington State. 

6 Q As Director of Customer Service 

7 Training and Standards for Schist, what are 

8 your principal duties and responsibilities? 

9 A I'm responsible for all of the 

10 customer service training, both above and 

11 below wing, and all standards, which include 

12 all the manuals for customer service, for 

13 policy procedure, working with our partners, 

14 and standardization and so forth. 

15 Q And, when you say " working 

16 with our partners ... , " what do you mean? 

17 A Delta Airlines, United Airlines, 

18 Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, and U.S. 

19 Air. 

20 Q So, the trunks with whom you code 

21 share. 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q And, so that the record is clear, 

2 when you talk about training above wing and 

3 below wing, what do you mean by those terms? 

4 A Above wing predominantly, 

5 customer service agents who are at the ticket 

6 counter and the gate. Below wing is all ramp 

7 personnel. 

8 Q Do you have any involvement with 

9 the cases that bring us here together today? 

10 A I do. 

11 Q And, what is or was your 

12 involvement in these cases? 

13 A Overseeing the standards for 

14 customer service, I have a staff who does the 

15 training, also responds to the letters of 

16 investigation, and then I usually sign off on 

17 them. I'm also responsible for enacting 

18 policies, procedures, training, that would fit 

19 our needs as an operator. 

20 Q Now, you were present this morning 

21 when Mr. Barclay testified? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q And, he testified to certain 

2 corrective actions that Schist undertook, as 

3 early as 2009, and which they are taking up 

4 through the present time. 

5 Do you agree with that testimony? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Okay. What was the reason for 

8 initiating these corrective actions back in 

9 2009? 

10 A Well, as an airline, as an 

11 operator, we want to be compliant with policy, 

12 procedure and the regulations. We interface 

13 with our CMO, and they have requested -- they 

14 made a statement to us that they will hold us 

15 to very high standards as a regional carrier, 

16 because we are a very large carrier. 

17 And so, I want to be complaint. I 

18 want to be held to a high standard. I want to 

19 be the best in the industry, so I try to 

2 0 reflect that down through my group in training 

21 to be compliant. 

22 Q What is does Schist have a 

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1 corporate philosophy regarding training? 

2 A To be one of the best in the 

3 industry. 

4 Q Okay. And, as Director of 

5 Customer Service Training with Schist, have 

6 you had a chance to -- or had the opportunity 

7 to compare notes with your counterparts at 

8 other regional airlines? 

9 A Always -- always do. We are very 

10 highly regarded in the industry. 

11 Q And, on the basis of your 

12 conversations with your counterparts in 

13 industry, how would you regard Skywest' s 

14 training compared to other air carriers? 

15 A We have a very quality training 

16 program, and have had people come from other 

17 airlines and tell us so, that we go above and 

18 beyond in a lot of the training, compared to 

19 what they had received at other carriers. 

20 Q So, when you say" ... people come 

21 from other airlines u have you had . . ' 

22 occasion to train other airlines? 

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1 A We do. We've had other airlines 

2 send their people to we offer United 

3 Airlines classes. We've had people pay to 

4 send them to both our above and below wings 

5 classes, and we've done some training for 

6 Delta as well. 

7 Q What is Skywest's corporate 

8 philosophy regarding compliance with Federal 

9 Aviation Regulations? 

10 A It's non-negotiable. I mean, 

11 their expectation is that they are compliant. 

12 Q Now, Schist, as an air carrier, is 

13 responsible for what goes on with its 

14 airplanes, is that correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q In the real world, in Skywest's 

17 present system with its code shares, does 

18 Schist, through Skywest's own personnel, load 

19 Schist airplanes all the time? 

20 A No. The environment has changed 

21 considerably since I started with the 

22 airlines. They used to handle 100 percent of 

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1 our aircraft ground handle, and today we only 

2 probably handle in the neighborhood of 20 to 

3 30 percent of our operations. 

4 Q And, who is handling the other 70 

5 to 80 percent? 

6 A There are probably in the 

7 neighborhood of 15 -- somewhere between 15 and 

8 20 other ground handlers out there who touch 

9 our aircraft. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: Permission to 

11 approach, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q Ms. Aiken, I'm showing you what's 

15 been marked for identification as Exhibit R9. 

16 (Whereupon, the document was 

17 marked for identification 

18 as Exhibit No. R9.) 

19 (Whereupon, the witness was 

20 proffered the document.) 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q In other words, these cases? 

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1 A These cases. 

2 Q Okay. And so, you have the case 

3 number, and I guess the first four characters 

4 are the last four digits of the DMS number, 

5 and the second two digits are the last two 

6 digits of the FAA case number, is that 

7 correct? 

8 A I believe so. 

9 Q Okay. And then, you list the 

10 flight numbers in the second column, the 

11 route, and then you list loading agent, is 

12 that correct? 

13 A Yes, the responsible vendor, 

14 ground handler. 

15 Q Okay. So, for instance, as an 

16 example, in Case 0869/72, involving a flight 

17 from Houston to Colorado Springs, Flight 1160, 

18 that aircraft was loaded by Continental. 

19 A It was. 

20 Q And, going, let's see, second from 

21 the bottom, FAA case, or DMS Case 0873, FAA 

22 case ending with 63, Flight 756 from O'Hare to 

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1 Colorado Springs, that aircraft was loaded by 

2 United Airlines, is that correct? 

3 A It is. 

4 Q And, actually, of all these cases, 

5 there's only one that was loaded by Schist, is 

6 that correct? 

7 A I believe there's two on there. 

8 Q Oh, I see, okay, yes, Denver to 

9 FSD, that is what? 

10 A Sioux Falls. 

11 Q Sioux Falls. And, Denver to Rock 

12 Springs? 

13 A Right. 

14 Q Is that correct? 

15 MR. DWORKIN: I'd ask that R9 be 

16 received, Your Honor. 

17 MR. HARPER: Objection, relevance, 

18 unless Schist is contending they didn't have 

19 operational control of these flights. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: No, we are not 

21 contending that we didn't have operational 

22 control, but --

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1 MR. HARPER: Then I don't see 

2 how/who handled the flights of the underlying 

3 contracts has any relevance at all to Schist 

4 Airlines' liability. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: It certainly 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled, the 

7 exhibit will be admitted. Respondent's 9 for 

8 identification is admitted as Respondent's 9. 

9 (Whereupon, the document that was 

10 previously marked for 

11 identification as Respondent's 

12 R9, was received in evidence.) 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q Have you been involved ln 

15 communications with the FAA concerning these, 

16 what in common parlance have been known as 

17 •heavy backn cases? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Did -- how long have been engaged 

2 0 in conversations with the FAA regarding these 

21 cases? 

22 A Since probably just prior to our 

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1 last round, maybe a little bit before. 

2 Certainly, since 2009, perhaps, before. 

3 Q Okay. As the Director of 

4 Training, with respect to weight and balance 

5 in aircraft loading, what is the training 

6 intended to do? 

7 A To teach our people how to load 

8 the aircraft, and to ensure we run a safe 

9 operation, to teach them how to be best 

10 agents. 

11 Q What, if anything, is the training 

12 intended to do with respect to human factors? 

13 A To minimize the human factors, 

14 certainly. Due to the number of people 

15 handling our aircraft, we do, with our own 

16 people, the best that we can do in our 

17 training to minimize that, because we know 

18 it's going to happen, we teach them the right 

19 way to handle and load the aircraft. 

20 Q In connection with instances in 

21 which other air carriers act as the loading 

22 agent, when there have been discrepancies in 

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1 baggage counts, what, if anything, has Schist 

2 done with respect to those other carriers? 

3 A In the last few years, every 

4 airline had a different weight and balance 

5 program flying carrier, and you would have a 

6 ground handler who handled multiple carriers, 

7 and would have to learn the various weight and 

8 balance programs. 

9 Working with our partners over the 

10 last few years, we have attempted to 

11 standardize the loading process with respect 

12 to the CLR, because that would help minimize 

13 the various forms that they would have to 

14 complete and the different ways they would 

15 have to be completed, if we had one form which 

16 standardized the training for the loading of 

17 that aircraft. 

18 The form has changed over the last 

19 few years to accommodate different aircraft 

20 types, and we are down to probably three or 

21 four carriers who still have --maybe five who 

22 still have their own version of ACLR. Most 

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1 everybody has adopted the same, and I think we 

2 have seen some improvement in the loading 

3 process because of that standardization. And, 

4 we continue to push with using it with a 

5 couple three of the other carriers. 

6 Q When a bag count on a CLR for 

7 whatever reason is incorrect, is that, 

8 necessarily, the result of lack of training? 

9 A No. I can't speak for other 

10 carriers, but, no, I don't we have a 

11 standard process that we've all agreed to. 

12 And, I'm sure that given, as stated in prior 

13 testimony, the environmental conditions, the 

14 tasks at hand can affect, play into human 

15 factors. 

16 Q In your conversations with the FAA 

17 when they indicated that they counted bags 

18 coming off the airplane, have they ever 

19 admitted that they even miscounted? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Now, in response to the FAA's 

22 investigations into these matters, Schist has 

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1 received letters of investigation from the 

2 FAA, is that correct? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Were those letters of 

5 investigation responded to? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And, were those responses written 

8 by you? 

9 A Not all of them. I usually had my 

10 name on them and approved them, but Mr. 

11 Barclay responded to some and/or another 

12 individual who worked for me. 

13 Q But, the responses were made under 

14 your supervision. 

15 A Right. 

16 Q And, your review? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Okay. And, when the responses 

19 were submitted at the time you believed that 

20 they were true and correct responses? 

21 A Yes. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

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1 Honor? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q Ms. Aiken, I'm showing you what 

5 has been marked as Exhibit R10. 

6 (Whereupon, the witness was 

7 proffered the document.) 

8 (Whereupon, the document was 

9 marked for identification 

10 as Respondent's Exhibit No. R10.) 

11 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

12 Q What is this, or what are they? 

13 A Responses to letters of 

14 investigation. 

15 Q And, they are over your signature? 

16 A Yes. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: I'd ask that R10 be 

18 received, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want a 

20 minute to review it, Mr. Harper? 

21 MR. HARPER: No objection. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 10 for 

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1 identification is received ln evidence as 

2 Respondent's 10. 

3 (Whereupon, the document that was 

4 previously marked for 

5 identification as Respondent's 

6 Exhibit R10, was received in 

7 evidence.) 

8 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

9 questions. 

10 Thank you, Your Honor. 

11 Thank you, Ms. Aiken. 

12 CROSS EXAMINATION 

13 BY MR. HARPER: 

14 Q Ms. Aiken, if you could look at 

15 Exhibit R9. Schist Airlines operated all of 

16 those flights, correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Schist Airlines had operational 

19 control over all those flights. 

20 A The flying, yes. 

21 Q So, ln other words, Schist 

22 Airlines was responsible for the safe content 

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1 of all those flights. 

2 A In accordance with regulation, 

3 yes. 

4 Q Schist was the responsible party 

5 for the operation of those flights. 

6 A In accordance with regulation, 

7 yes. 

8 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 

10 Honor, and that concludes Respondent's case. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I am going to 

12 instruct the witness, you are not to discuss 

13 your testimony with anybody prior to the 

14 conclusion of the hearing. 

15 You are free to step down. 

16 (Whereupon, the witness was 

l 7 excused.) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, Mr. Harper, do 

19 you have a rebuttal? Do you want a couple 

20 minutes to think about it? 

21 MR. HARPER: No rebuttal, Your 

22 Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So, that 

2 concludes the case. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, it does, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: That means our 

6 court reporter now has to go back to smoky 

7 California. 

8 Do the two of you want the 

9 opportunity to brief? 

10 MR. HARPER: Yes. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Why don't we 

13 do this. I'm not led to a schedule on 

14 briefing, you know that my usual rule of thumb 

15 is, you know, 30 days, 15 and 7. I don't know 

16 what either one of your schedules are. I 

17 think you and I are going to be together ln 

18 June, Mr. Dworkin, in Dallas. 

19 Mr. Harper, when you get the 

2 0 transcript, why don't you talk to Mr. Dworkin, 

21 both of you have been gentlemen throughout the 

22 trial. And, let me just say, I think both of 

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1 you are excellent contentious attorneys, but 

2 it's a pleasure to see two professionals, 

3 conducting themselves as you two have done 

4 over the last couple of days. It makes my job 

5 easier, and I think you both are a credit to 

6 the profession. 

7 So, having said that, Mr. Harper, 

8 when you get the transcript and once you've 

9 talked to Mr. Dworkin and Mr. Emerson, you two 

10 work out the briefing schedule. 

11 MR. HARPER: Yes, sir. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay? And, I'm 

13 serious, I don't care what it is, because I 

14 told you, I'm backed up now. If you get it 

15 done in 30 days, fine, if you get it done by 

16 September that's fine. 

17 You two work that out, and then as 

18 you get into the schedule and if you run into 

19 a problem shoot me an email. 

20 I say that, having found out 

21 yesterday I'm locked out of my office computer 

22 again. So, if you send me an email on 

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1 something, and you don't get a response, Pat 

2 always know what the status is, and we can 

3 always -- Mr. Harper, you've got my personal 

4 email, and you probably do, too, Mr. Dworkin, 

5 so don't be embarrassed to use that if you 

6 need to. 

7 So, is there anything else we need 

8 to do? 

9 MR. HARPER: I don't believe so, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: I don't think so, 

13 Your Honor. 

14 MR. HARPER: With the possible 

15 exception, we usually go through to make sure 

16 we are all on the same page as to what's been 

17 admitted and not admitted. I believe there 

18 was one exhibit we were going to get a clear 

19 copy. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: R5-5, yes. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don' t we do 

22 this. Once I go off the record, Mr. Harper, 

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1 I'll put the binder up here, and you and Mr. 

2 Dworkin can go through making notes. 

3 What I think I'll do, and I'm 

4 doing this in another case, when I make 

5 redaction I'm going to do a -- I hesitate to 

6 call it a pleading, but I'm just going to call 

7 it redactions. I'll send both of you a copy 

8 of it, as to what I've redacted, look at, 

9 compare it to your notes, make sure I didn't 

10 miss anything. 

11 I hesitate to put it in the 

12 record, because it's more of a communication 

13 between the three of us, but, you know, we can 

14 decide what we want to do. 

15 But, once I get everything 

16 redacted, I'll make a list of what I've done, 

17 double check. I didn't see any PII, I did see 

18 some other information that we mutually agreed 

19 on. 

20 You two work up a schedule, and 

21 we'll go from there. 

22 Thank you, gentlemen, it's a shame 

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1 to leave a sunny day here ln Salt Lake. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We are off the 

5 record. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter was concluded at 11:05 a.m.) 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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474 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines 

Before: Department of Transportation 

Date: 

Place: Salt Lake City, Utah 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 2344433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.rmalrgruss.com