202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 1

 US DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED WAIVER PROCESS 

 FOR GRID CONNECTED LARGE-VOLUME 

 ELECTRIC STORAGE WATER HEATERS 

 + + + + + 

 FRIDAY 

 MARCH 15, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The meeting came to order in room 

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, 

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, 

Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc. 

ARI ALTMAN, Department of Energy 

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy 

LAURA BARHYDT, Department of Energy 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 2

JIMMY BAKER, Palmetto Electric Cooperative 

 Inc. 

SCOTT BAKER, PJM 

TIMOTHY BALLO, EarthJustice 

MICHAEL T. BEYERLE, GE Appliances 

SAMUEL R. BRUMBERG, Association of Electric 

 Cooperatives 

DONALD M. BRUNDAGE, Southern Company 

MARKUS BRYANT, Lorain-Medina Rural Electric 

 Cooperative, Inc. 

ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting 

KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electronic 

 Cooperative Association 

DON FLYNN, Vaughn Thermal Corporation 

CRAIG GLAZER, PJM 

BARRY L. GLOVER, Aiken Electric Cooperative, 

 Inc. 

DAVE GRAVES, Eau Claire Energy Cooperative 

PENELOPE HINSON, Horry Electric Cooperative 

DERRIL HOLLY, National Rural Electric 

 Cooperative Association 

TOM HOLT, East River Electric 

AMY HOUSTON BRYAN, Jackson Electric Membership 

 Corporation 

MICHAEL HYLAND, American Public Power 

 Association 

LINDA KING, Northwestern REC 

STEVEN KOEP, Vaughn Thermal Corporation 

ALEX LEKOV, Ph.D., Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

DAVID LOGERMAN, Central Electric Power 

 Cooperative 

JEREMY MAHOWALD, Cass County Electric 

 Cooperative 

JAY MORRISON, National Rural Electric 

 Cooperative Association 

DAVID MOHRE, National Rural Electric 

 Cooperative Association 

DOUG PAYNE, Fairfield Electric 

EDDIE PLOWDEN, Berkeley Electric Cooperative 

JEFF PRATT, Oglethorpe Power 

STEVEN ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute 

JEFF SPRINGER, Dairyland Power Cooperative 

FRANK STANONIK, AHRI 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 3

PAUL STEFFES, Steffes Corporation 

ALLEN WICHER, Rheem Water Heating 

JAMES COLEMAN, Shelby Electric Cooperative 

GARY CONNETT, Great River Energy 

EARL JONES, General Electric 

ALEX BOESENBERG, NEMA 

CATHERINE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting 

ROBIN ROY, NRDC 

THOMAS ZIMMER, GE 

HARVEY SACHS, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council 

EDWARD SHORT, Power South Energy 

ALEX HOFMANN, American Public Power 

 Association 

EDDIE PLOWDEN, Berkeley Electrical Cooperative 

JOHN COFFEY, Shenandoah Valley Electric 

 Cooperative 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 4

 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Welcome and Introductions, Doug Brookman 6 

Welcome and Overview, John Cymbalsky 15 

Opening Remarks from Industry 

 Representatives: 

Scott Baker, PJM Interconnection 19 

Jay Morrison, NRECA 25 

Alex Hofman American Public Power 

 Association 28 

David Logerman, Central Electric Power 

 Cooperative, Columbia, SC 29 

Linda King, Northwestern REC 35 

Barry Glover, Aiken Electric Cooperative 40 

Sam Brumberg, Virginia, Maryland, and 

 Delaware Association of Electric 

 Cooperatives 45 

John Coffey, Shenandoah Valley Electric 

 Cooperative 54 

Jim Coleman, Shelby Electric Cooperative, 

 Shelbyville, Illinois 59 

Jeff Pratt, Oglethorpe Power Corporation 63 

Steven Koep, Vaughn Thermal Corporation 66 

Markus Bryant, Lorain-Medina Rural Electric 

 Cooperative 70 

Doug Payne, Fairfield Electric 

 Cooperative 76 

Penelope Hinson, Horry Electric 

 Cooperative 78 

Gary Connett, Great River Energy 83 

Robin Roy, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council 89 

Edward Short, Power South Energy 94 

Tom Holt, East River Electric Power 

 Cooperative 96 

Dave Graves, Eau Claire Energy 

 Cooperative 102 

Jeff Springer, Dairyland Power 

 Cooperative 107 

Jeremy Mahawold, Cass County Electric 110 

Jimmy Baker, Palmetto Electric 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 5

 Cooperative 115 

Amy Bryan, Jackson EMC 121 

Eddie Plowden, Berkeley Electric 

 Cooperative 125 

Paul Steffes, Steffes Corporation 129 

Earl Jones, General Electric 132 

Tom Zimmer, General Electric 136 

Harvey Sachs, ACEEE 144 

Tim Ballo, EarthJustice 150 

Presentation: Ashley Armstrong, DOE 153 

 Discussion follows each segment 

 of the presentation. 

Closing Remarks: 

Jay Morrison, NRECA 242 

Adjourn 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 6

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:00 a.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So let us begin. 

4 Good morning, everyone, and welcome. This is 

5 the United States Department of Energy public 

6 meeting on proposed waiver process for grid 

7 connected large-volume electric storage water 

8 heaters. 

9 Today is Friday, March 15, 2013 

10 here at the Department of Energy, the 

11 Forrestal Building in Washington, D.C. 

12 My name is Doug Brookman from 

13 Public Solutions in Baltimore. I'm glad to 

14 have you all here. 

15 We typically start with 

16 introductions and I'll start to my immediate 

17 left. You can get used to turning the 

18 microphone on and off and getting it close to 

19 your face. 

20 MR. JONES: Good morning. Earl 

21 Jones, senior counsel at GE Appliances and 

22 Lighting. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 7

1

2 MR. HOFMANN: Alex Hofman, staff 

3 at American Public Power Association. 

4 MR. J. BAKER: Jimmy Baker, Vice 

5 President of Marketing and Public Relations 

6 for Palmetto Electric Cooperative in South 

7 Carolina. 

8 MR. STEFFES: Paul Steffes with 

9 Steffes Corporation in Dickinson, North 

10 Dakota. 

11 MR. MORRISON: Jay Morrison, VP of 

12 Regulatory for NRECA. 

13 MR. S. BAKER: Scott Baker, 

14 Business Solutions Analyst at PJM 

15 Interconnection. 

16 MR. WICHER: Allen Wicher, Manager 

17 of Industry Relations, Rheem Manufacturing 

18 Company. 

19 MR. GRAVES: Dave Graves with Eau 

20 Claire Energy Cooperative, Fall Creek, 

21 Wisconsin. 

22 MS. KING: Linda King, Vice 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 8

1 President of Marketing and Business 

2 Development at Northwestern Rural Electric 

3 Cooperative. 

4 MR. CONNETT: Gary Connett with 

5 Great River Energy up in Maple Grove, 

6 Minnesota. Director of Demand Side 

7 Management. 

8 MS. BRYAN: Amy Bryan, Director of 

9 Residential Marketing with Jackson EMC. 

10 MR. PRATT: Jeff Pratt, Director 

11 of Energy Efficiency for Oglethorpe Power in 

12 Georgia and President of Green Power EMC. 

13 MR. LOGERMAN: David Logerman, 

14 Director of Power Supply, Central Electric 

15 Power Cooperative, Columbia, South Carolina. 

16 MR. BRUMBERG: Good morning. Sam 

17 Brumberg, counsel to the Virginia, Maryland, 

18 and Delaware Association of Electric 

19 Cooperatives. 

20 MR. SHORT: Ed Short, CEO of 

21 Covington Electric Co-op speaking for Power 

22 South Energy. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 9

1 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural 

2 Resources Defense Council. 

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American 

4 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. 

5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 

6 Conditioning, Heating, Refrigeration 

7 Institute. 

8 MR. ALTMAN: Ari Altman with the 

9 Department of Energy's General Counsel's 

10 Office. 

11 MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, 

12 Assistant General Counsel for Enforcement at 

13 DOE. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 

15 DOE Buildings. 

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

17 Program Manager for Building Codes and 

18 Appliance Standards at DOE. 

19 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 

20 Navigant Consulting. 

21 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

22 Berkeley National Laboratory. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 10

1 MS. RIVEST: Catherine Rivest, 

2 Navigant Consulting. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start with 

4 you. Please stand up. 

5 MR. MAHOWALD: Jeremy Mahowald, 

6 Cass County Electric Cooperative, Fargo, North 

7 Dakota. 

8 MR. SPRINGER: Jeff Springer with 

9 Dairyland Power in La Crosse, Wisconsin. 

10 MR. PLOWDEN: Eddie Plowden, 

11 Northwest Cooperative, marketing manager. 

12 MR. PAYNE: Doug Payne, Fairfield 

13 Electric Cooperative, Blythewood, South 

14 Carolina. 

15 MR. GLOVER: Barry Glover, Aiken 

16 Electric Cooperative, Inc. 

17 MS. HINSON: Penelope Hinson, 

18 Horry Electric Cooperative in Conway, South 

19 Carolina. 

20 MR. HOLT: Tom Holt, East River 

21 Electric Power Cooperative, Madison, South 

22 Dakota. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 11

1 MR. GLAZER: Thank you. Craig 

2 Glazer with PJM Interconnection. 

3 MR. KOEP: Good morning, Steve 

4 Koep with Vaughn Thermal Corporation in 

5 Salisbury, Mass. 

6 MR. FLYNN: Good morning. Don 

7 Flynn, Vaughn Thermal Corporation, Salisbury, 

8 Massachusetts. 

9 MR. HOLLY: Good morning, Derril 

10 Holly, NRECA. 

11 MR. COFFEY: John Coffey, 

12 Shenandoah Valley Electric Cooperative. 

13 MR. COLEMAN: Jim Coleman, Shelby 

14 Electric Cooperative representing Illinois 

15 Electric Cooperatives. 

16 MR. DENNIS: Keith Dennis with 

17 NRECA. 

18 MR. BEYERLE: Mike Beyerle, GE 

19 Appliances and Lighting. 

20 MR. BRYANT: Markus Bryant, 

21 General Manager of the Lorain-Medina Rural 

22 Electric Cooperative and the more central 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 12

1 electric cooperatives in Ohio and also 

2 representing Buckeye Power. 

3 MR. MOHRE: David Mohre, NRECA. 

4 MR. HYLAND: Mike Hyland, American 

5 Public Power Association. 

6 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earth 

7 Justice. 

8 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster. Foster 

9 and Jamison. 

10 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

11 Southern Company. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

13 Edison Electric Institute. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And 

15 please. 

16 MR. ZIMMER: Tom Zimmer, General 

17 Electric, Louisville, Kentucky. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Are we 

19 missing anyone? Well, again, welcome. Glad 

20 to have you here this morning. I'm going to 

21 do a very brief agenda review. And then 

22 following that, John Cymbalsky is going to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 13

1 provide a little bit of introduction and 

2 overview. After that, there's an opportunity 

3 for opening remarks, short, summary remarks 

4 from anybody that wishes to do so. And as I 

5 understand it, 29 individuals or so have 

6 requested to make an opening statement. We'll 

7 get into that in more detail. 

8 Following those opening remarks, 

9 we'll take a mid-morning break around about 11 

10 o'clock or so and then from there we'll be 

11 going into the details of the materials that 

12 you received when you came in the door: 

13 regulatory history, rulemaking overview, 

14 discussion of the issue. Following that, 

15 options and proposed action and another 

16 opportunity at the end of the day for closing 

17 remarks, and specifically how you can 

18 participate in sending in comments and the 

19 like, the details on that. That's the general 

20 plan. Any comments on that? I see none. 

21 I would ask for your consideration 

22 in the conduct of these meetings; for many 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 14

1 years, it's been easier for us to observe 

2 these courtesies. Please speak one at a time. 

3 Please say your name for the record each time 

4 you speak. There will be a complete 

5 transcript of this meeting made available. If 

6 you could keep the focus here, please turn 

7 your cell phones on silent mode if you haven't 

8 already done so. Please limit sidebar 

9 conversations. You've already gotten used to 

10 turning that microphone on and off. That will 

11 be necessary. 

12 If you can be concise, share the 

13 air time. There's a lot to be said here 

14 today. If you could keep your comments 

15 focused, that would be very, very helpful. 

16 I'll be queuing individuals as best I can by 

17 name. I also wish to encourage individuals 

18 who follow on to go back and forth. Sometimes 

19 the point, counterpoint can be very useful for 

20 the Department. 

21 And for webinar participants, 

22 Jack, how many webinar participants? 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 15

1 MR. GRAUL: Thirty-four. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thirty-four webinar 

3 participants. Glad to have you joining us. 

4 The Department is trying hard to make these 

5 meetings accessible to folks via the web. If 

6 you could keep your cell phones on mute and 

7 you can raise your hand if you wish to 

8 participate or ask questions in this 

9 conversation. 

10 I think that's all the preliminary 

11 stuff. Are you going to do a few lead-off 

12 slides? 

13 John Cymbalsky for a welcome and 

14 overview. 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. 

16 John Cymbalsky, DOE. First, let me welcome 

17 everybody here to the public meeting. Given 

18 the attendance and the number of people who 

19 requested to speak, I guess we could all agree 

20 that this is an important issue to everybody 

21 in the room as it is to the Department. 

22 I'd like to thank, in particular, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 16

1 PJM, NRECA, and the others who brought this to 

2 our attention, met with us with ex parte 

3 communication meetings over the past several 

4 months to try to help frame up what we 

5 consider the issue here. The Department 

6 recognizes this set of circumstances for this 

7 appliance. We've also promulgated a standard. 

8 So I think we're trying to thread a small 

9 needle here with this proposal and so we're 

10 here today to take comment on that. 

11 I would request those of you who 

12 are going to speak try to keep it to three 

13 minutes, if you can. I know a lot of you are 

14 passionate about this and probably have a lot 

15 to say. But if we could all cooperate, I 

16 think we'll get through it. 

17 And then again, welcome. Let's 

18 have a productive meeting. Hopefully, we can 

19 get out of here, we're thinking about 1 

20 o'clock if things go smoothly. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I have 

22 a list in front of me, 29 individuals. One or 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 17

1 two haven't made it, I understand. That's 

2 still a lot of individuals. It doesn't take a 

3 lot of fancy math to figure out if those of 

4 you that wish to speak for five or ten 

5 minutes, we're going to be here a long time. 

6 So let me ask pointedly, how many 

7 of you will not be able to conform to two or 

8 three minutes. Just tell me now. How much 

9 time do you need? Four minutes. How about 

10 you? Four. You? Four. Okay. Gentleman? 

11 Four. Five to seven. So you get six. That 

12 will work out. 

13 (Off mic comments.) 

14 Would you like to do that early on 

15 or would you like to do that in the context of 

16 these slides? It might work out better. 

17 Okay, we've already worked that out. Okay. 

18 So then let's embark upon this and 

19 try and be concise and share the air time. 

20 The first person that I have -- 

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Before we do 

22 opening remarks, let's just get this slide out 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 18

1 of the way. So when we go through the 

2 presentation, we'll see these yellow comment 

3 boxes and that's when we'll open up the floor 

4 for comment on issues that we think are very 

5 important to us and ones that we would like 

6 comment on in preparation for a final rule. 

7 Also, you can see April 29th is 

8 the closing date for formal comments to be 

9 submitted to the Department in writing and the 

10 Department requests anything that you say 

11 written will be captured in the transcript and 

12 put in the docket. But written comments are 

13 much more helpful for us to actually put our 

14 eyes to, so I would appreciate formal written 

15 comments, thank you. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me note 

17 also, for those of you that have written up 

18 your comments and perhaps in a lengthier form, 

19 they can be and will be inserted completely in 

20 the transcript, in the record of this meeting. 

21 Yet another inducement for you to summarize. 

22 So then let's start. Scott Baker 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 19

1 is the first person I have listed. 

2 MR. S. BAKER: Great. Thanks, 

3 Doug and John and Ashley and your office for 

4 putting this meeting together. 

5 Good morning. My name is Scott 

6 Baker and I work for PJM Interconnection’s 

7 Applied Solutions Department which leads 

8 demonstration projects with the goal of 

9 testing new technologies that improve grid 

10 reliability and market efficiency. 

11 PJM is the regional transmission 

12 organization serving 60 million people in a 

13 13-state region and the District of Columbia. 

14 As an RTO, PJM administers the world's 

15 largest competitive wholesale electricity 

16 market, matching buyers and sellers to ensure 

17 the reliable and cost-effective supply of 

18 electricity. 

19 Our markets serve as a platform 

20 for demand-side resources to provide capacity, 

21 energy, and ancillary services to PJM 

22 customers. These demand-side resources 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 20

1 compete directly with electric generation and 

2 in many cases provide a more environmentally 

3 benign and customer-driven means to meet 

4 future demands for electricity. 

5 PJM has seen tremendous growth in 

6 the amount of demand-side resources 

7 participating in our markets. Demand response 

8 as a capacity resource has grown from 1700 

9 megawatts in 2007 to over 14,800 megawatts in 

10 the future year of 2015. 

11 In addition to demand response 

12 renewable energy resources, especially wind 

13 energy, are an increasing share of the 

14 region's generation portfolio. Wind 

15 resources, particularly in PJM region, are 

16 intermittent and tend to generate most of 

17 their power at night. Therefore, off-peak 

18 energy storage, whether it be in the form of 

19 centralized power plants like pumped storage 

20 hydro or demand-side resources like the 

21 residential water heaters we're talking about 

22 today serves a critical role to the efficient 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 21

1 integration of future amounts of renewable 

2 energy. 

3 PJM approaches the issue before us 

4 today neither as a manufacturer, nor as a 

5 utility. Rather, we're a profit-neutral, 

6 FERC-regulated entity charged with ensuring 

7 reliability and that all resources, including 

8 demand-side resources such as water heaters 

9 can participate in our markets to ensure the 

10 provision of reliable electricity at a fair 

11 price and with the least environmental impact. 

12 For the purposes of today's 

13 testimony, let me start by thanking the 

14 Department's Energy Efficiency Office. As 

15 John noted earlier, we, along with some of our 

16 utility partners, pointed out in public 

17 submittals that the 2010 efficiency standard 

18 as it applied to large capacity electric 

19 resistance storage water heaters may have had 

20 some unintended consequences and that 

21 technology has evolved since the efficiency 

22 standard proceeding for water heaters first 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 22

1 began, as have wholesale electricity markets. 

2 Your office has recognized these 

3 facts and established a framework for a 

4 solution and for that we're very appreciative. 

5 As the grid operator, we're 

6 interested in all forms of energy storage, 

7 particularly those that are low cost and 

8 easily deployable. We feel the existing 

9 energy efficiency standard and this NOPR will 

10 deprive the market of those storage resources 

11 precisely at a time when deployment and 

12 innovation and controllable storage water 

13 heater technology is most important. 

14 Specifically, the process in the 

15 NOPR granting a one-year waiver and requiring 

16 annual renewals of that waiver will stifle 

17 technological development of storage water 

18 heaters. From PJM's perspective, there is, in 

19 fact, a very real Catch-22 in the proposed 

20 rule that will defeat the purpose of using 

21 storage water heaters to meet future 

22 reliability needs. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 23

1 PJM's capacity market is designed 

2 to ensure that sufficient resources are 

3 procured three years prior to the actual year 

4 they will be called upon to serve as 

5 reliability resources. This three year 

6 forward market has benefitted demand response 

7 resources greatly. It not only provides PJM 

8 with certainty of supplies, but also provides 

9 a fixed-revenue stream that market 

10 participants can use to finance the deployment 

11 of these resources. 

12 Year-by-year renewal process is 

13 complicated with the three year forward nature 

14 of PJM's capacity market. In addition to PJM, 

15 ISO New England operates a three year capacity 

16 market. California and Texas are exploring 

17 forward capacity markets and in non18 restructured states, utility integrated 

19 resource planning time horizons can be even 

20 longer. 

21 Designing regulations that allow 

22 demand-side resources to participate in these 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 24

1 capacity constructs will directly impact the 

2 need for building new fossil and nuclear 

3 generation. 

4 PJM recognizes the Department's 

5 desire to track a deployment of these 

6 resources. Therefore, reforms such as 

7 reporting through EIA are a good tool. PJM 

8 also has additional information that it can 

9 provide the Department to assist in analyzing 

10 the penetration of these programs. But we 

11 must make sure that the cure for concerns 

12 about leakage are not worse than the disease 

13 itself. 

14 PJM encourages the Department to 

15 rethink the time frame of the waiver for the 

16 reasons stated here. And we plan to submit 

17 more detailed comments in this docket, but 

18 appreciate the opportunity to participate 

19 today and look forward to working with the DOE 

20 and all the other stakeholders in this room on 

21 a comprehensive solution to the problem. 

22 Thanks very much. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 25

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. As I 

2 understand it, Mike Hyland didn't make it. 

3 MR. HOFMAN: He's not speaking. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: He's not speaking. 

5 Then Jay Morrison. 

6 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. I'm Jay 

7 Morrison from NRECA. 

8 I want to start out by thanking 

9 Ms. Edwards for all her work setting up this 

10 meeting and making it easy to get through 

11 security. 

12 I want to thank John and Ashley 

13 for working so well with us. In this 

14 environment, it's very easy to beat up on the 

15 Government and beat up on DOE. We have not 

16 done that because John and Ashley really have 

17 been trying hard to make this work for us. 

18 And I want to thank them for that. 

19 However, the NOPR doesn't work. 

20 The one year time horizon, the conditions that 

21 are on the waiver are not consistent with the 

22 way our members plan and operate their system. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 26

1 It's not the way their consumers get water 

2 heaters. We don't have the information that's 

3 required to make the NOPR work as the NOPR is 

4 written. We have 17 members here today who 

5 can speak to those specifics a whole lot 

6 better than I can about how their systems 

7 operate, how their programs operate and what 

8 the specific challenges are under this NOPR. 

9 What I want to do is suggest an 

10 alternative, put it on the table. Rather than 

11 a one year, we think we need at least five 

12 years of certainty up front. We would like to 

13 see at least three years' notice before a 

14 waiver is canceled for much the same reasons 

15 that PJM mentioned. We need to be able to 

16 plan our systems, plan our programs, plan our 

17 resources out a ways. We need some certainty. 

18 I can see that as a rolling three 

19 year. So if after first two years of the 

20 program you all collect enough data that 

21 you're concerned with the way the waiver is 

22 working, then at that point looking out to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 27

1 2020 you can alter or cancel the waiver. 

2 If after four or five years of 

3 data, you find that the program is not 

4 working, then three years out from that point 

5 you could cancel or change the waiver. The 

6 point is to give us the notice, the time we 

7 need to plan the resources that we use to 

8 serve our members. We're a long-time 

9 industry. We're a 30 year horizon industry 

10 most of the time. One year doesn't work. 

11 We also would like to see most of 

12 those conditions removed. Again, like I said, 

13 they don't reflect the way water heaters 

14 really move through commerce. We can 

15 understand you wanting to have the water 

16 heaters when they leave the manufacturer look 

17 different than the ones that are on the shelf 

18 today, having some sort of universal load 

19 control device that the utility can use or 

20 bypass with their own device if they need to. 

21 We can understand different packaging. We 

22 can understand the need for data collection so 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 28

1 that after a couple of years you can assess 

2 the waiver program. But we do think it needs 

3 to be a very simple waiver so that the water 

4 heaters can actually get out there so that our 

5 consumers, our member owners, can buy them so 

6 that we can hook our load control devices on 

7 them. 

8 Thank you very much. And again, 

9 thank you for working with us. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 MR. HOFMAN: Alex Hofman. 

12 American Public Power Association. I just 

13 wanted to open with this fact that there are 

14 over 2,000 of these municipally-owned electric 

15 utilities in the U.S. And these not-for16 profit small entities do use demand response 

17 programs that do rely on resistance-type water 

18 heaters. They run small programs and at 

19 issue here is I think a very important fact. 

20 And it's based on the evidence that was 

21 brought forward by a lot of the stakeholders 

22 in this process, is this effort to correct 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 29

1 some of the unintended consequences of the 

2 2010 rule. 

3 And I think the framework proposed 

4 here in this NOPR will help to allow small 

5 cities that use these types of programs make 

6 their electric system more efficient on the 

7 whole. The efficiency gained here from 

8 resistive technology water heaters is a real 

9 thing and it is currently being taken 

10 advantage of by many entities. 

11 We are asking the Department to 

12 rethink one of the key pinch points here which 

13 is the time frame as was mentioned by NRECA. 

14 We do agree that a five year time frame would 

15 be something that would actually correctly fix 

16 this issue of certainty. So we want to thank 

17 you for getting together to try and make this 

18 effort. We hope that the conversation we have 

19 today will be a positive one. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. David 

21 Logerman. 

22 MR. LOGERMAN: Good morning. My 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 30

1 name is David Logerman and I'm Director of 

2 Power Supply at Central Electric Power 

3 Cooperative, headquartered in Columbia, South 

4 Carolina. 

5 Central is a generation and 

6 transmission cooperative supplying the 

7 wholesale power needs for the 20 electric 

8 distribution cooperatives in South Carolina 

9 who, in turn, provide power to more than 1.5 

10 million South Carolinians. So in that role, 

11 the comments that I'd like to make this 

12 morning will be from a power supply 

13 perspective. 

14 We're very concerned about the 

15 Department of Energy's actions that are going 

16 to seriously and quantifiably affect our 

17 ability to hold down costs for electricity. 

18 And again, I appreciate the opportunity to 

19 provide comments regarding this issue. 

20 Central has a very long history of 

21 operating control systems for both electric 

22 water heating and air conditioning in South 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 31

1 Carolina. As early as 1983, we recognized the 

2 value we could bring to members by moving 

3 water heater load from peak times to off-peak 

4 times. 

5 When Central constructed its first 

6 load-control systems, the electric water 

7 heaters managed were standard 30 and 40-gallon 

8 tanks. In order to make the program as 

9 transparent to customers as possible, the 

10 small storage capacity available on a 40-

11 gallon tank limited us to a two-hour window 

12 for control. However, we very quickly learned 

13 the opportunity for savings was compromised by 

14 the short time frame. 

15 Simply put, there's just not 

16 enough hot water in the smaller tanks to last 

17 over a useful control period. Not only that, 

18 customers too frequently ran out of hot water 

19 making them incidentally unhappy with the 

20 program. And we were only able to capture a 

21 small fraction of the savings we had hoped 

22 for. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 32

1 So learning from these mistakes we 

2 returned to the drawing board. We created a 

3 new large capacity water heating program. By 

4 using 80 to 100-gallon energy storage 

5 reservoirs, we were able to lengthen the 

6 control period of four hours and customers did 

7 not run out of hot water. Satisfaction soared 

8 under the new program and that program 

9 continues to this day. 

10 There are now more than 100,000 

11 water heaters, large capacity water heaters, 

12 under control in South Carolina. And this 

13 success would not have been possible without 

14 the introduction of the larger capacity tanks. 

15 In marketing the program, 

16 skeptical customers questioned us regarding 

17 the size of the tanks. They asked if the 

18 energy use wouldn't be greater given the 

19 larger tank. To objectively answer this 

20 question, we approached the engineering school 

21 at the University of South Carolina and tasked 

22 them with answering the question. They found 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 33

1 the difference in energy use between an 80-

2 gallon system and a 50-gallon system with the 

3 same construction standards was minimal. As 

4 the finding stated, the standby losses were 

5 not measurably significant. 

6 Contemplating the results, we did 

7 consider the larger storage hot water might 

8 result in more hot water consumed, simply 

9 because it's available. And while this might 

10 be true on the margin, generally, we feel that 

11 fuel use is a function of overall demand and 

12 not tank size. The fact is, demand control 

13 large capacity water heating systems do not 

14 use measurably more energy. They use it at 

15 different times, allowing for a more efficient 

16 use of our generation system. 

17 Twenty years ago, we only 

18 considered this from a cost perspective, but 

19 today, we also notice improved use of 

20 generation diminishes greenhouse gas emissions 

21 and defers the construction of new generation. 

22 And finally, as an often 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 34

1 overlooked benefit, but one I'm glad to hear 

2 it was mentioned a few minutes ago, large 

3 capacity water heaters may serve as an energy 

4 storage system we can use as a smart grid tool 

5 in a system emergency. 

6 Frankly, we feel our adaptation of 

7 a current, simple technology provides benefits 

8 that outweigh the kilowatt hour savings which 

9 may be realized by using more expensive, but 

10 less flexible technologies. 

11 As a consumer owned power company, 

12 we're looking for efficiencies and we're 

13 looking for energy efficiency in everything we 

14 do. Our concern is that the DOE is pursuing a 

15 path towards energy efficiency that has little 

16 payoff, while at the same time undoing a 

17 program which has had for us tremendous 

18 benefits. If the Department moves forward 

19 with these proposals, we would ask that the 

20 DOE consider a much longer transition period 

21 allowing us to react and find solutions. 

22 The one-year waiver is simply too 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 35

1 short and from a practical sense, is no waiver 

2 at all. As soon as it's begun, the clock will 

3 be ticking on applying for extending it. A 

4 long waiver allows planners, utility experts, 

5 to move forward in order to make an orderly 

6 transition to whatever it is that may lie 

7 ahead. 

8 This concludes my remarks. I want 

9 to thank you very much and thank the DOE for 

10 providing us with this forum. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Linda 

12 King. 

13 MS. KING: Thank you. My name is 

14 Linda King. I'm Vice President of Marking and 

15 Business Development at Northwestern REC, a 

16 distribution cooperative in Northwestern 

17 Pennsylvania. I represent our 20,000 rural 

18 co-op members, as well as the 600,000 

19 consumers in the 14 Pennsylvania, New Jersey 

20 rural electric cooperatives. 

21 Northwestern has a 26 year rich 

22 history of load control using large capacity 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 36

1 water heaters. Our savings alone is over $18 

2 million in demand costs, while the 

3 Pennsylvania and New Jersey cooperatives have 

4 saved over $112 million in the course of the 

5 program. 

6 Northwestern has invested in AMI 

7 technology as well as a brand new load 

8 management system. Our members received a 

9 free water heater and 24-hour parts and 

10 service for their participation. This 

11 represents an estimated $1200 value to each 

12 participant as well as additional power cost 

13 savings. These changes represent a risk to 

14 that investment for not only our small 

15 business, but our rural members as well. 

16 Some of the far-reaching impacts 

17 detailed in my comments include only 25 

18 percent of our rural members have access to 

19 natural gas. Propane and fuel oil have higher 

20 installation costs with members having to pay 

21 for that fuel before they actually use it and 

22 many of our members don't have those 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 37

1 resources. 

2 Forty-four percent of our members 

3 actually participate in our water heater 

4 program of which 70 percent of those 

5 participants have a 75-gallon or larger water 

6 heater. 

7 Our dairy farmers use 105 and 120-

8 gallon units in their milk house and parlor 

9 operations to effectively sterilize their 

10 milking equipment. To take this option away 

11 from our dairy farmers would have a 

12 significant impact on their financial 

13 operations as well as other small businesses 

14 such as rural slaughterhouses. 

15 Putting restrictions on the supply 

16 quantity of large capacity water heaters will 

17 result in a higher cost for each unit that we 

18 purchase. It's a simple supply and demand 

19 issue. Our large capacity units come with a 

20 lifetime warranty. Fifty-two gallon units and 

21 heat pump water heaters do not and this will 

22 also increase our cost of operations. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 38

1 Our demand response units are not 

2 mounted on the water heaters. They are 

3 mounted in the floor joists and in the walls 

4 in our over 8300 member homes. Members on 

5 special off-peak heating rates are controlled 

6 through a meter base and have no demand 

7 response unit in the home. 

8 We embrace the use of heat pump 

9 water heaters in the appropriate setting. But 

10 they are not a one-for-one replacement for our 

11 members. Height restrictions limit the number 

12 of rural homes that can accommodate these 

13 units. The cooling of the rooms that the unit 

14 resides in will resort in our northern climate 

15 users, such as myself, placing the unit on 

16 demand only setting during winter periods. 

17 The result is instead of using a standard 

18 large-capacity unit with an EF of 92, I am now 

19 using an 80-gallon heat pump water heater on 

20 demand only with an EF of 85. There must be a 

21 balanced approach. 

22 Twice the cost and weight also 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 39

1 represent a problem when you're trying to use 

2 a heat pump water heater. Our 75-gallon unit 

3 weights about 122 pounds. Heat pump water 

4 heaters we used in our pilot range from 190 

5 pounds to mine of 410. One pilot participant 

6 who is also a heat pump contractor asked to 

7 have his unit removed the day after 

8 installation. The home operated on demand 

9 only mode until we were able to put his old 

10 unit back in. 

11 Through our pilot, we metered 

12 gallons of water heated as well as kilowatt 

13 hours to heat that water. The results show 

14 that a 52-gallon unit uses more energy to heat 

15 a gallon of water than the 75-gallon unit that 

16 we utilize. So the option of using two 52-

17 gallon units to replace a large-capacity unit 

18 would actually end up being less efficient and 

19 less cost effective. 

20 If a waiver is the only solution 

21 to a balanced approach, we would request the 

22 water heaters be marketed something like a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 40

1 grid-enabled unit without the sales 

2 restriction or the requirement of a load3 control device being attached at the 

4 manufacturer. We would also recommend the 

5 five-year waiver with a three-year notice. 

6 Thank you for your consideration. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Barry 

8 Glover. Yes, please. Make sure it's on. I 

9 think it is. 

10 MR. GLOVER: Thank you. Good 

11 morning. My name is Barry Glover. I'm Vice 

12 President of Governmental Relations and Key 

13 Accounts for Aiken Electric Co-op in Aiken, 

14 South Carolina. 

15 First, I'd like to thank you again 

16 for hosting this program. First, I appreciate 

17 the DOE recognizing in its recent Notice of 

18 Proposed Rulemaking the tremendous value that 

19 electric thermal storage offers consumers. I 

20 also appreciate DOE recognizing that action is 

21 needed to mitigate the impacts of the April 

22 2010 efficiency rule on our ability to use 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 41

1 those water heaters in our demand response 

2 program. 

3 I'm here today to comment on both 

4 the value that the large electric resistance 

5 water heater brings to our program and the 

6 need to mitigate the impacts of the April 2010 

7 efficiency rule. 

8 For more than 20 years, Aiken 

9 Electric and other South Carolina co-ops have 

10 controlled large capacity electric resistance 

11 water heaters to manage our peak load, thus 

12 lowering peak demand during the days when the 

13 costs are highest. As a cooperative, we pass 

14 the savings from the supportive program on to 

15 our consumer members in order to keep our 

16 costs low. 

17 About 82 percent of Aiken Electric 

18 consumer members use electric water heaters. 

19 Of those, about 19 percent are directly 

20 controlled. Aiken Electric Cooperative saves 

21 approximately $100 on every directly22 controlled device that is in operation, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 42

1 decreasing the high-low demand through the use 

2 of directly-controlled water heaters and this 

3 equates to about $644,000 in annual savings. 

4 Of course, we pass that back on to the 

5 consumer. 

6 The use of demand response large 

7 capacity storage programs decreases the need 

8 for additional generation of associated costs. 

9 By controlling the operating times of 

10 residential water heaters, we are effectively 

11 negating the need for the addition of two 

12 combustion turbines to handle our peak demand. 

13 For South Carolina co-op members, the cost 

14 savings benefit is approximately $9 million. 

15 Conversely, the prohibition of demand response 

16 large capacity storage devices will create 

17 many negative consequences for cooperative 

18 members. The direct and indirect cost savings 

19 I mentioned above will vanish. Rates will 

20 increase due to higher wholesale power demand 

21 charges and the need for additional generation 

22 to handle increased peak load. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 43

1 Many of our members will be forced 

2 to use multiple water heaters or tankless 

3 systems, which would create higher initial and 

4 maintenance costs, a reduction of energy 

5 efficiency and potential space requirement 

6 issues in the home. Low-income and large 

7 families would be excessively burdened due to 

8 limited choices and higher costs. 

9 Approximately 25 percent of South Carolina co10 op members live in manufactured homes. Thus, 

11 because of heat restrictions, a heat pump 

12 system cannot be installed in a home where a 

13 water heater is located in a small room or 

14 closet which is typical for most stick-built 

15 and all manufactured homes in South Carolina. 

16 We're very concerned about threats 

17 to our program and enforcement of a proposed 

18 rule that does not effectively address the 

19 threat to our program posed by the 2010 

20 efficiency standard. The annual duration of 

21 the proposed waivers and significant 

22 conditions that the proposed rule imposes on 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 44

1 those waivers makes them simply unworkable. A 

2 one-year waiver does not give our system 

3 enough certainty to maintain our load 

4 management program. If we do not know year to 

5 year whether the water heaters we need for our 

6 program will continue to be available, we 

7 cannot justify a continued investment in the 

8 program. 

9 The proposed waiver process is 

10 impractical. It will create too much of a 

11 burden, and most importantly, it's not based 

12 on reality in the field. We don't have any 

13 kind of a way to get manufacturers and 

14 utilities to decide en masse how many units, 

15 which models, and which control devices we 

16 need for each individual utility program. 

17 We would suggest that you replace 

18 the one year waiver process in the proposed 

19 rule with a simple waiver that will last at 

20 least five years. Then look at your 

21 experience after a few years operating under 

22 that simple waiver and if the waiver is not 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 45

1 working, eliminate it or amend it with three 

2 years' notice. That way, you control adverse 

3 impacts, but you also give us some certainty 

4 and some simplicity we need to continue our 

5 demand response. We sincerely hope that DOE 

6 considers these comments and amends its 

7 proposal. Thank you. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Sam 

9 Brumberg. 

10 MR. BRUMBERG: Yes, good morning, 

11 and thank you. My name is Sam Brumberg. I am 

12 Associate Counsel to the Virginia, Maryland, 

13 and Delaware Association of Electric 

14 Cooperatives. Thank you for the opportunity 

15 to comment on this issue. 

16 The 15-member systems of the 

17 Association use demand response technology 

18 attached to residential water heaters as an 

19 important part of their overall strategy to 

20 keep power costs down and grid stability 

21 reliable. Our cooperatives work hard to 

22 provide reliable, environmentally-responsible 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 46

1 power at the lowest reasonable cost to our 

2 customers. And we maximize reliability using 

3 demand response technologies. 

4 Water heaters of all sizes are an 

5 important and essential load-management tool 

6 for our member cooperatives. DOE appears to 

7 recognize the value that demand response and 

8 load-control programs using large electric 

9 resistance water heaters offer consumers, as 

10 well as a contribution they make toward energy 

11 efficiency. 

12 Thank you for recognizing also 

13 that action was needed to mitigate the impacts 

14 of the April 2010 efficiency rule on our 

15 ability to use those water heaters in demand 

16 response programs. 

17 I want to emphasize here that 

18 neither the Association nor its member systems 

19 are opposed to energy efficiency or more 

20 efficient water heaters or better water 

21 heaters. We've been industry leaders on 

22 energy efficiency for quite some time. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 47

1 However, these policies should make sense for 

2 all utilities which may be impacted by them. 

3 I would submit that the current 

4 proposed rule, while a de minimis improvement 

5 over the 2010 standard, still represents a 

6 very problematic and slippery slope which 

7 could threaten demand response programs 

8 regardless of switch technology or water 

9 heater size because utilities will not have 

10 the relative regulatory certainty and 

11 stability that they will need to justify 

12 future investments. 

13 Large capacity water heaters play 

14 an important role in our member systems' 

15 effort to provide safe, reliable, and 

16 affordable energy. 

17 I'd like to tell you a little bit 

18 about some of the experiences of our member 

19 systems. One began installing this equipment, 

20 this load management equipment as early as 

21 1979 and estimates at least $25 million in 

22 savings to its members by managing peak demand 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 48

1 through load management and the efficiency 

2 efforts. Many of the Association members 

3 systems have been using demand response 

4 technology such as that used with residential 

5 water heaters since the late 1970s or '80s. 

6 And the benefits have been significant. 

7 We believe all of these benefits 

8 are in jeopardy. Maybe not today, but five or 

9 ten years from now as water heaters and switch 

10 technology needs replacement, given where this 

11 policy appears to be headed. 

12 I would respectfully ask where the 

13 extent of regulation reaching out into 

14 individual homes would end? At a midsize 

15 rural cooperative with 8,000 switches and 

16 whose program started in 1990 savings have 

17 been over $11 million cumulatively. At three 

18 small rural cooperatives savings -- many 

19 millions of dollars have been achieved since 

20 the late 1980s. A midsize suburban 

21 cooperative with over 17,000 switches the 

22 installation of which began in 1988, has 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 49

1 achieved over $15 million in savings. A large 

2 suburban and exurban cooperative with over 

3 30,000 switches has achieved savings of over 

4 $54 million. And a midsize rural cooperative 

5 whose program started in 1988 has achieved 

6 $1.5 million in savings with only 4,000 

7 switches. These are significant dollar 

8 amounts for electric distribution 

9 cooperatives. 

10 Unfortunately, the proposed rule 

11 does not effectively address the threat to our 

12 demand response programs that was posed by the 

13 2010 standard. The annual duration of the 

14 waivers and the significant conditions the 

15 proposed rule imposes on them makes the 

16 waivers unworkable. A one-year waiver does 

17 not give our member systems enough certainty 

18 to maintain their management programs into the 

19 far future. Development and implementation of 

20 these programs are complex to multi-year 

21 process that requires cooperation among many 

22 stakeholders. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 50

1 Again, as Mr. Morrison with NRECA 

2 commented, if we do not know from year to year 

3 exactly what the regulatory environment will 

4 look like, we cannot continue to justify 

5 investment in these programs. The strict 

6 conditions placed on the waiver process are 

7 burdensome and impractical. The proposed rule 

8 puts several conditions on the waiver process 

9 that do not align with how these programs 

10 operate. There's no coordinated distribution 

11 network and utilities and manufacturers have 

12 no consensus on which models, how many units, 

13 and which control devices might be needed to 

14 meet the needs of individual utilities' 

15 programs. 

16 The diversity of control devices 

17 used by our programs, and the reality of how 

18 products move between manufacturers in the 

19 marketplace, make the waiver unworkable. 

20 Also, the distribution chain is not controlled 

21 -- neither co-ops, nor manufacturers, control 

22 the distribution chain from the point of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 51

1 manufacture to the point of use. Integration 

2 of this process is practically impossible. 

3 It's ultimately up to the customer to select 

4 the water heater and the utility to select and 

5 install the switch mechanism. 

6 Our member systems use a wide 

7 variety of control devices in their programs 

8 and even a single system may use multiple 

9 control devices depending on communications, 

10 availability in various parts of their 

11 territory. While it would be practicable to 

12 ensure that water heaters have a load control 

13 device installed at the time of manufacture, 

14 we must have the flexibility to use different 

15 control devices if the one included in the 

16 unit is not compatible with our system. 

17 We would support NRECA's proposal 

18 and suggest that you replace the one-year 

19 process with a simple waiver that will last 

20 five years, free of the complicated and 

21 burdensome conditions. This would allow us 

22 time to analyze the effects of the waiver and 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 52

1 collect some data and give us time to amend 

2 again, bearing in mind that a one-year time 

3 frame for an operating electric utility might 

4 as well be six months or 30 days. 

5 If DOE does not make changes to 

6 the proposed rule, we may lose the ability to 

7 use water heaters for load management programs 

8 at great cost to our members. We're also 

9 concerned that any proposed rule which might 

10 provoke a fuel switching behavior, as some of 

11 my colleagues alluded to, the rule that would 

12 provoke a fuel switching behavior ultimately 

13 would be poor public policy making. 

14 Finally, we're concerned about the 

15 impact of the freedom of market choice that 

16 this rule may have in the marketplace. The 

17 proposed rule would ultimately prohibit the 

18 manufacture of certain types of water heaters 

19 critical to the operation of our demand 

20 response programs. The choice of what to 

21 manufacture should ideally remain with the 

22 free market. Additionally, water heaters that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 53

1 manufacturers would be least likely to design 

2 and manufacture under the proposed rule due to 

3 their increased costs would be the ones most 

4 likely to appeal to low income, fixed income 

5 and more rural consumers. 

6 For all these reasons, the 

7 Association and its member systems would hope 

8 that DOE consider these comments and consider 

9 amending its proposal. 

10 I have here with me today, a 

11 representative from one of the member systems 

12 of the Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware 

13 Association who will discuss the specific 

14 impact that the proposed rule would have on 

15 his system and its member owners. I'll also 

16 momentarily be sharing some comments with you 

17 from Gil Jaramillo, manager of Business 

18 Development and Energy Services from Northern 

19 Virginia Electric Cooperative, who is unable 

20 to be with us today. 

21 Thank you once again. The 

22 Association and its member systems look 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 54

1 forward to submitting additional written 

2 comments in this matter and appreciate the 

3 opportunity to be heard. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: John Coffey. 

5 MR. BRUMBERG: If I could, let me 

6 briefly summarize Mr. Jaramillo's comments. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: You've already gone 

8 eight or nine minutes. 

9 MR. BRUMBERG: All right. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

11 MR. BRUMBERG: He supports what I 

12 said. 

13 (Laughter.) 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: John Coffey. 

15 MR. COFFEY: Thank you very much. 

16 My name is John Coffey and I'm the Vice 

17 President of Engineering Operations for 

18 Shenandoah Valley Electric Cooperative which 

19 is headquartered in Mount Crawford, Virginia. 

20 Our co-op, and for that matter, 

21 I'm here today representing the 92,000 meters 

22 and consumers that we serve on a day-to-day 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 55

1 basis. And I really do appreciate the 

2 opportunity to comment on the issue. 

3 Large capacity electric resistance 

4 water heaters play an important role in the 

5 Cooperative's efforts to provide its member 

6 owners with safe, reliable, and affordable 

7 energy. For more than 32 years, our 

8 Cooperative has managed our peak load program 

9 by controlling large capacity electric 

10 resistance water heaters. As cooperatives, we 

11 pass the savings from the important program on 

12 to our member owners in order to keep the 

13 electric rates as low as possible. 

14 Specifically, Shenandoah Valley 

15 Electric Cooperative's water heater peak 

16 demand response program includes 9,409 

17 directly controlled water heaters and 

18 voluntary member participation by 13 percent 

19 of all residential accounts across the 

20 Cooperative's system. This includes 1912 

21 large capacity water heater control switches 

22 that have been installed since May 2011 in our 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 56

1 newly acquired service territory. For 2012, 

2 this program reduced the Cooperative's 

3 wholesale power costs by nearly $1.1 million. 

4 The savings directly translates into rate 

5 reductions for our member owners now and in 

6 the future. Since the program implementation, 

7 the Cooperative has saved our members over 

8 $24.9 million by reducing wholesale power 

9 demand costs. The annual peak load for the 

10 Cooperative has reduced through this program 

11 more than 2.5 percent in the winter and more 

12 than 1.9 percent in the summer. These numbers 

13 are expected to increase as additional 

14 switches are added in our acquired territory. 

15 Effective use of water heaters and 

16 demand response programs requires resistance 

17 water heating for demand reduction during 

18 control periods. Heat pump water heaters do 

19 not respond fast enough to properly function 

20 as a demand control device. For that matter, 

21 it is questionable whether the heat pump water 

22 heater would add any real value to the overall 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 57

1 residential structure if the heat exchange 

2 taking place happens within the confines of 

3 that structure. 

4 Unfortunately, the proposed rule 

5 does not effectively address the threat of the 

6 2010 efficiency standard to our demand 

7 response efforts. Development and 

8 implementation of our ongoing power 

9 requirements is a complex, multi-year process 

10 that requires cooperation among many 

11 stakeholders including cooperative staff, as 

12 well as wholesale power suppliers, 

13 contractors, regulators, board of directors, 

14 and our member owners. 

15 Lastly, it's important to note 

16 that cooperatives and manufacturers do not 

17 control the distribution chain of water 

18 heaters from the point of manufacture to the 

19 point of use. It is also impractical to 

20 expect that these distribution channels could 

21 even be developed. Simply put, our members 

22 purchase the water heater they need and may 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 58

1 voluntarily agree to participate in the 

2 Cooperative's water heater load control 

3 program. The Cooperative selects the most 

4 cost effective water heater control switch 

5 that is fully compatible with our systems and 

6 infrastructure. The end result is a highly 

7 customized and effective load control program 

8 that provides the highest level of wholesale 

9 power demand cost savings to our member owners 

10 at the lowest possible cost of installation. 

11 If the DOE does not make 

12 significant changes to the proposed rule, it 

13 appears that we will lose the ability to use 

14 large capacity water heaters as part of the 

15 Cooperative's load management program. In 

16 today's numbers, that will come at a cost of 

17 $1.1 million per year and additional wholesale 

18 demand cost that will be borne by the 92,000 

19 accounts owned by our member owners. 

20 Again, thank you for the 

21 opportunity to speak with you today regarding 

22 the proposed rule. I sincerely hope that the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 59

1 DOE considers these comments and amends its 

2 proposal to allow for the ongoing, existing 

3 use of large capacity water heaters as a vital 

4 part of the Cooperative's demand response 

5 program. Thank you. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jim 

7 Coleman. 

8 MR. COLEMAN: Thank you. Good 

9 morning. As a matter of brevity, I'll submit 

10 this document in writing, but I'll hit some of 

11 the high points as would like to acknowledge 

12 the comments made here, many of them have 

13 already been talked about. 

14 My name is Jim Coleman. I'm 

15 President and CEO of Shelby Electric 

16 Cooperative, Shelbyville, Illinois. I'm here 

17 to speak not only on behalf of Shelby, but the 

18 12 other electric cooperatives in Illinois 

19 that are presently participating in water 

20 heater demand programs and we appreciate the 

21 willingness of DOE to hear us out on this 

22 issue. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 60

1 Shelby Electric has 2,187 miles of 

2 line over 10,000 services beginning in January 

3 of 1938. Collectively, today I'm representing 

4 13 electric cooperatives with over 160,000 

5 meters, 51,000 miles of line. Our purpose is 

6 to provide safe, cost effective, and efficient 

7 power for Illinois member owners and the water 

8 heater management program is one that we 

9 administer to meet these goals. 

10 Presently in Illinois, we have 

11 17,470 meters on control and estimated 2,730 

12 to be installed in the next five years. We've 

13 had several of these programs in place for 

14 more than two decades and it's been found to 

15 be a very effective tool for managing high 

16 costs and peaks as we see changes in the MISO 

17 capacity market. 

18 We in Illinois are pleased with 

19 DOE's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and the 

20 value that thermal storage capacity has, 

21 however, we recognize the rules as presently 

22 proposed by DOE do not handle the threat to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 61

1 Illinois programs in the 2010 standards. 

2 A few things I'd like to point 

3 out, the one-year waiver as many of you spoke 

4 to here. The multi-year process requires 

5 cooperation among stakeholders including our 

6 board of directors, staff, contractors, 

7 suppliers, and our member owners. If we don't 

8 know year to year whether the water heater we 

9 need for our program will be available, we 

10 cannot justify the continued investment. 

11 Co-ops and manufacturers do not 

12 generally control the distribution chain of 

13 water heaters from point of manufacture to 

14 point of use and it's impractical to expect 

15 the channel to be developed in the near 

16 future. Most of our members purchase their 

17 water heaters from big box stores, local 

18 hardware stores, and in some cases from the 

19 cooperatives. 

20 Co-ops use a wide variety, in 

21 Illinois, of load control devices, even the 

22 single system as in Shelby's case, use 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 62

1 multiple control devices. We use a high band 

2 158.13 megahertz FCC approved frequency to 

3 operate scientific ATLANTIS switches. We also 

4 use our AMR Aclara system with power line 

5 carrier to reach our water heaters. There's 

6 presently no one standard or method that the 

7 Illinois cooperative is using for protocol to 

8 turn the switches on and off. 

9 While it would be practical to 

10 ensure that water heaters have a load control 

11 device we must have the flexibility to make 

12 changes so that it's compatible with our 

13 system. The heat pump water heaters, I'll 

14 suggest that a 50-gallon water heater takes up 

15 700 square feet or a 9 by 9 by 8 room; the 85-

16 gallon water heater significantly more. At 

17 Shelby Electric, we offer the large capacity 

18 GE water heater heat pumps. From personal 

19 experience I can attest to the large space 

20 requirements need for thermal transfer. 

21 There's also a significant noise issue related 

22 to when it's running and would not be suitable 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 63

1 for many main living areas. 

2 The Illinois cooperatives would be 

3 heavily impacted by this rule. We embrace the 

4 five years and with that in a matter of 

5 brevity, I'll -- 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We 

7 appreciate that. Jeff Pratt. 

8 MR. PRATT: Thank you and I 

9 appreciate the opportunity to say a few words 

10 about this at the beginning. I represent 

11 Oglethorpe Power Corporation from Georgia. 

12 We are a generation cooperative for 39 

13 electric cooperatives in Georgia. That's 

14 about -- represent almost half of the 

15 residential population of the State of 

16 Georgia. So quite a few there. That includes 

17 both rural and suburban areas in the state. 

18 So a wide diversity of areas. 

19 Really, just straight to the 

20 point, there's a couple of issues in the NOPR 

21 that really concerns our cooperatives and the 

22 progress that this might have in their demand 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 64

1 response programs, energy storage programs. 

2 First, the NOPR really focuses on 

3 the waiver and the waiver being the way to go. 

4 We have significant concerns about the 

5 waiver. Much has been said here today about 

6 that, so I will just say a couple of quick 

7 points. First, EMCs are cooperatives, we call 

8 them EMCs in Georgia. They rely upon -- they 

9 plan, purchase, and rely upon their own 

10 communication systems to implement their 

11 demand response programs. They each look at 

12 their service area and decide what 

13 communication tools they need to purchase to 

14 make that happen. 

15 To date, we have not seen a 

16 manufacturer that has produced a product or a 

17 group of manufacturers in the water heating 

18 space that would allow a diverse set of 

19 communication tools. So one ship per 

20 manufacturer, so far we have not seen that 

21 happen. So that would immediately cause 

22 problems with the waiver. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 65

1 Secondly, it seems to put the 

2 utility in the business, squarely in the 

3 business of being a sole source of supplied 

4 water heaters for grid demand, grid demand 

5 water heaters. And I don't think that that's 

6 the intent. I think a more open opportunity 

7 for manufacturers to work together, much like 

8 the Consumer Electronic Association's R7.8 

9 communication interface, would be much more 

10 effective than the route that has been 

11 proposed in the NOPR. 

12 Third, I think it will be 

13 important to consider that cooperatives -- 

14 that it will be unlikely with the waiver from 

15 year to year for it to be effectively 

16 introduced if the waiver is the only way that 

17 -- a provision that could make this happen. I 

18 would strongly encourage something longer than 

19 one year. 

20 As someone said, nothing happens 

21 in these programs in one year that's 

22 effective. Most of the programs that you've 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 66

1 heard about today I would suspect and 

2 certainly in Georgia, they take years to 

3 develop, years to implement, and years to see 

4 the effect. And year-to-year planning just 

5 will not work. Thank you. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Don 

7 Flynn. 

8 MR. KOEP: Good morning. My name 

9 is Steven Koep. I'll be speaking on behalf of 

10 Vaughn Thermal Corporation. Vaughn Thermal 

11 Corporation has been in the business of 

12 manufacturing high efficiency, long life, 

13 electric water heaters for electric utility 

14 programs for over 50 years. We have a strong 

15 interest in this marketplace and we very much 

16 appreciate the opportunity to be with you here 

17 today. 

18 I will speak first directly to a 

19 couple of points that are on issues that DOE 

20 was seeking comment from manufacturers. The 

21 first point has to do with the requirement of 

22 the unit to be shipped from a manufacturer 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 67

1 with control device installed. That for all 

2 the reasons you've already heard is fairly 

3 impractical and from the manufacturer 

4 perspective, if you look at the number of 

5 sizes involved and the number of controls 

6 available, you're talking SKU multiplications 

7 by dozens. 

8 Let's see, on the response to DOE 

9 for adding a question to the EIA form, I think 

10 that's targeted specifically to utilities, but 

11 if requested, Vaughn can certainly provide 

12 grid interactive water heater production data 

13 directly to DOE. 

14 On the third point regarding the 

15 waiver process that it would not have a 

16 significant impact on a number of small 

17 business manufacturers, I guess I'm of the 

18 opinion that there are no longer a substantial 

19 number of water heater manufacturers in the 

20 country. We may be one of the last or the 

21 sole remaining small residential tank-type 

22 electric water heater manufacturer. We would 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 68

1 consider that the impacts would indeed be 

2 adverse, could be significant and the SKU 

3 multiplication issue would be the primary 

4 reason. 

5 I'll comment briefly on a couple 

6 of other items in regards to the waiver. We 

7 are in agreement with the comments that 

8 advocate for longer time frames. Five years 

9 would seem to be reasonable. The initial DOE 

10 rulemaking was five years. We think that the 

11 manufacturers and the utility industry, given 

12 a similar time frame, can certainly 

13 demonstrate the added value of grid 

14 interactive water heating technology. 

15 The second issue I'll touch on. I 

16 would describe as changing the technology or 

17 changing the source energy for residential 

18 electric water heaters. While heat pump water 

19 heaters have the potential to reduce the 

20 carbon footprint of the residential water 

21 heating appliance by up to 50 percent, for all 

22 the reasons noted today it's not universally 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 69

1 suited to all residential applications. We 

2 have done some considerable work, lab testing 

3 and field demonstrations of grid-interactive 

4 electric water heating and we can, I believe, 

5 demonstrate similar or greater carbon 

6 reduction potential. So at this point in time 

7 our position is that the Department of Energy 

8 has the unique opportunity to set the stage 

9 for a potential doubling of carbon reduction 

10 potential in the electric water heating market 

11 by enabling the continued evolution and 

12 proliferation of grid-interactive electric 

13 water heating. 

14 My last comment has to do with the 

15 renewable storage opportunity. As increasing 

16 amounts of renewable generation are coming 

17 online, the need for renewable storage is 

18 becoming more and more prominent. By 

19 necessity, the electric utility industry is 

20 experimenting with megawatt scale, battery, 

21 and flywheel technologies that promise 

22 performance and flexibility, but they carry 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 70

1 the added burdens of cost and complexity. It 

2 can certainly be argued that the nation needs 

3 an all of the above storage technology 

4 development strategy, but the fact remains 

5 that electric thermal storage is the low6 hanging fruit. Operating as a thermal 

7 battery, grid interactive electric water 

8 heaters at present are the only cost 

9 effective, wide deployment, distributed 

10 storage option currently available. 

11 In addition, if you're providing 

12 excess, low cost, or no cost renewable energy 

13 to that device you are, in essence, 

14 significantly reducing the carbon footprint of 

15 the appliance. 

16 Again, I want to thank you very 

17 much for the opportunity to be with you today. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Markus 

19 Bryant. 

20 MR. BRYANT: Good morning. I'm 

21 Markus Bryant. I'm General Manager of the 

22 Lorain-Medina Rural Electric Cooperative in 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 71

1 Ohio and also the North Central Electric 

2 Cooperative in Ohio, also representing the 

3 other 22 electric cooperatives in Ohio as 

4 well. Our two cooperatives serve about 26,000 

5 meters, all the Ohio cooperatives combined, 

6 about 320,000 meters. 

7 I appreciate you having this 

8 hearing today. Large capacity water heaters 

9 are an extremely important tool in our load 

10 management program. Lorain-Medina has 5,400 

11 or about 37 percent of its residential 

12 accounts with these kind of water heaters. 

13 North Central has 3,800 or 45 percent of their 

14 accounts. There's almost no natural gas 

15 availability in North Central area. Across 

16 all of Ohio's cooperatives after 30 years of 

17 effort, there are 114,000 water heaters under 

18 load management or about a third of the 

19 residential accounts with about 54,000 kW, 

20 load deferral capability. 

21 We appreciate what DOE is trying 

22 to do here, to lessen the impact of the April 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 72

1 2010 rule so we can continue using these large 

2 capacity water heaters in our load management 

3 program. Unfortunately, the proposed rule 

4 really doesn't work for us. We generally 

5 support the waiver concept to allow greater 

6 than 55 gallon water heaters. At our two 

7 cooperatives, we very seldom install a load 

8 control switch on a water heater with less 

9 than 75 gallons. The few exceptions involve 

10 space considerations where we just can't get 

11 the larger tank in. 

12 After years of experience, we 

13 found that installing larger tanks are 

14 absolutely necessary to assure an adequate 

15 supply of hot water during extended load 

16 control periods. We found that consumers will 

17 not continue in the program if they run out of 

18 hot water frequently because of extended load 

19 control periods with smaller tanks. 

20 Although we do support a simple 

21 waiver with provisions for review and renewal 

22 that will last at least five and we prefer 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 73

1 even longer, seven years or more, frankly, in 

2 the utility business we have a long term 

3 budgeting and write off of load management 

4 investment that usually is a minimum of ten 

5 years. So this is all part of our 

6 consideration. 

7 In our view, a one-year waiver is 

8 effectively no waiver at all. A year-to-year 

9 waiver situation creates simply so much 

10 planning uncertainty that it will effectively 

11 halt the continued maintenance and expansion 

12 of our program. 

13 The conditions placed on the 

14 waiver process are unworkable even with the 

15 five to seven year waiver. The coordinated 

16 manufacturing distribution process envisioned 

17 by the rule simply does not exist and we do 

18 not believe that it could be expected to be 

19 developed. It is more cost effective in our 

20 view to the consumer which we think that 

21 cooperatives is the focus, should be the 

22 focus, to supply some sort of standard size 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 74

1 tanks meeting specific efficiency standards. 

2 In our program, we require a minimum EF of 90 

3 percent or better in our tanks that are hooked 

4 up. And we don't believe that it's necessary 

5 to require any attached load management 

6 devices. 

7 For some of the other reasons 

8 mentioned previously, it's simply more cost 

9 effective for the utility to install their 

10 choice of load management switch, matching the 

11 already installed communication technology. 

12 There seems to be some concern in 

13 the rules that somehow the purpose of the 

14 conditions that we have to sort of make sure 

15 the water heaters don't stray outside of the 

16 load management purpose, especially these 

17 larger tanks. One person mentioned leakage 

18 earlier. Frankly, the reality of the 

19 marketplace, we don't believe that's a real 

20 significant issue at all. So the safeguards 

21 are really unnecessary. 

22 In our area, our load management 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 75

1 program is what is actually driving the market 

2 for large capacity water heaters. And the 

3 reason for that if you look at our promotional 

4 literature, we provide rebates of up to $500 

5 to the consumer to purchase these water 

6 heaters. What typically happens is that 

7 without a load management program, consumers 

8 generally will buy a 55-gallon or smaller tank 

9 unless there's two potential market purposes 

10 why they wouldn't. One is they may have a 

11 very large family which today is quite 

12 unusual, but there are some large families 

13 where they may have seven people or more. And 

14 obviously, a 55-gallon water tank is not going 

15 to be enough hot water. The other use 

16 mentioned earlier was dairy farms, meeting 

17 milk quality reasons for their operations they 

18 must have larger quantities of water, hot 

19 water available. 

20 So generally, unless there is a 

21 need, price is going to dictate the consumer's 

22 decision generally towards a smaller tank. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 76

1 And as I mentioned earlier, those who 

2 participate in our water heater program 

3 receive a rebate which is frankly what drives 

4 them to the larger water heater size in the 

5 first place. So we see all the attached 

6 conditions as frankly unnecessary and 

7 counterproductive. 

8 In addition, our consumers receive 

9 a monthly $1.50 credit on their electric bills 

10 as their share of the wholesale power savings, 

11 so with those financial incentives I believe 

12 we're adequately controlling and steering the 

13 marketplace towards those larger sized tanks 

14 for this purpose of demand management. Thank 

15 you. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Doug 

17 Payne. 

18 MR. PAYNE: My name is Doug Payne. 

19 I'm Vice President and a member of the 

20 Strategic Services for Fairfield Electric 

21 Cooperative in South Carolina. Thank you for 

22 giving me this opportunity to comment. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 77

1 For more than 20 years, Fairfield 

2 Electric Cooperative has promoted the 

3 installation of 80 gallon electric water 

4 heaters with load control devices. More than 

5 25 percent of our residential members 

6 participate in our load management program. 

7 We currently control more than 5,300 water 

8 heaters with an annual savings of more than 

9 $500,000 in demand charges. 

10 The reduction in the Cooperative's 

11 wholesale power cost has benefitted all our 

12 members through lower rates. Fairfield 

13 Electric Cooperative provides incentives to 

14 our members to participate in the load 

15 management program and we also offer a water 

16 heater maintenance program. We currently have 

17 more than 4,500 members participating in the 

18 maintenance program which provides repair 

19 service and replacement water heaters when 

20 necessary. 

21 The maintenance program gives us 

22 the opportunity to keep the member enrolled in 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 78

1 the load management program by offering a 

2 replacement water heater when the time comes 

3 for it to be replaced. The availability of 

4 large capacity water heaters is essential for 

5 us if we are to continue our load management 

6 program. We are pleased that DOE has 

7 recognized the need for the proposed rule and 

8 waiver. We ask that DOE consider changes that 

9 have been proposed by NRECA and we sincerely 

10 hope changes will be made to the proposed rule 

11 which will give us the ability to continue our 

12 program. 

13 Our members have reaped the 

14 benefits for many years and it is our hope 

15 that they will continue to benefit well into 

16 the future. Thank you again for the 

17 opportunity to comment. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Penelope Hinson. 

20 MS. HINSON: Thank you. My name 

21 is Penelope Hinson. I'm manager of Public 

22 Relations, Marketing, and Energy Management at 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 79

1 Horry Electric Cooperative which is in Conway, 

2 South Carolina. And we appreciate the 

3 opportunity to add comment to this important 

4 issue. 

5 Much of what has our cooperative 

6 concerned is long-term planning. We have 20-

7 year plans for finances, 10-year plans for 

8 engineering. Those are reviewed every four or 

9 five years. We're into long-term planning. 

10 Load forecasting which is strongly 

11 driven by historical trends and projections 

12 related to members' quantities and patterns of 

13 use figure very heavily into our long-term 

14 plans. 

15 We are pleased to see what we 

16 believe to be recognition by DOE of the need 

17 for long-term planning in the recent NOPR. 

18 The April 2010 efficiency rule, as it's 

19 written now, would have a negative impact on 

20 our ability to use large capacity electric 

21 water heaters in our demand response programs. 

22 There is nothing long term about a one-year 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 80

1 waiver. 

2 Horry Electric has been managing 

3 its peak demand for many years. Residential 

4 members can participate in an active load 

5 management program in which the cooperative 

6 controls water heating load during peak 

7 periods of energy use. In 2012, almost 4,800 

8 consumers participated in our load management 

9 program. Through that effort, the cooperative 

10 shaved over 1900 kilowatts of load per peak 

11 incident during the summer months and over 

12 3,300 kilowatts of load per peak incident 

13 during the winter months. 

14 We call our program H2O Select. 

15 We provide free financing to members because a 

16 lot of people can't go in and buy a water 

17 heater off the shelf with their finances, so 

18 we'll finance it for 12 months. We offer $125 

19 rebate for someone replacing with a 50-gallon 

20 electric water heater and $250 rebates for an 

21 80-gallon tank. It just doesn't need to be as 

22 complicated as the proposed waiver makes it. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 81

1 As long as the water heater itself meets our 

2 standards, efficiency standards and other set 

3 up requirements, we'll install a load 

4 management switch that's compatible with our 

5 metering and control system. We don't have 

6 and shouldn't need a complicated distribution 

7 network with manufacturers to plan how many 

8 units, which models, which control devices to 

9 produce. That adds a lot of complication to 

10 what is a very easy program. 

11 Sounds easy to say water heaters 

12 ought to have a load control device installed 

13 at the time they're made, but that eliminates 

14 the flexibility we have to use a different 

15 control device if the one at the factory 

16 installed doesn't match our system. 

17 Our program is the result of a 

18 complex, multi-year process that required a 

19 lot of cooperation. Our staff, our board of 

20 trustees, contractors, and our members are all 

21 part of the mix. The one absolutely sure 

22 thing in that formula has been the supply of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 82

1 water heaters that meet the requirements of 

2 our program. If their availability is not 

3 going to be known from year to year, we can't 

4 justify a continued investment in the program. 

5 Technology changes frequently. In 

6 the time that I've been associated with load 

7 management we've had five different 

8 generations of load control switches. As long 

9 as the water heater purchased is installed for 

10 the purpose of load management program meets 

11 our requirements, we don't care where the 

12 member gets it. Plumbing contractors, retail 

13 stores such as Lowe's, Home Depot, Sears, and 

14 even local hardware stores know about our 

15 program and its requirements and this is where 

16 a lot of the participants come from is these 

17 plumbing contractors and these hardware 

18 stores. 

19 As for the proposed one-year 

20 waiver, Horry Electric echoes comments made 

21 earlier by Mr. Morrison of NRECA, Mr. Glover 

22 of Aiken. Please don't make us lose the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 83

1 ability to use large capacity electric water 

2 heaters. Thank you. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Gary 

4 Connett. 

5 MR. CONNETT: Gary Connett, 

6 Director of Demand Side Management at Great 

7 River Energy. We're a G&T cooperative and 

8 have 28 member distribution cooperatives 

9 located in Minnesota. 

10 Last night, Great River Energy 

11 stored over 800 megawatt hours in 70,000 

12 batteries. Some of these batteries are either 

13 in the far northern reaches of Minnesota where 

14 the snow stands deep. Others of these 

15 batteries are in southwestern Minnesota in the 

16 farm country near Buffalo Ridge where there's 

17 over 2,000 megawatts of wind turbines in their 

18 shadows. 

19 The 70,000 batteries are, of 

20 course, large capacity electric resistance 

21 water heaters that GRE charges in the night 

22 time only. They are on what is called an off-
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 84

1 peak strategy, only receiving energy for an 

2 eight-hour period beginning at 11 p.m. and 

3 ending at 7 a.m. The large capacity of the 

4 water heaters allow us to heat water, enough 

5 water in the eight hours of night time to 

6 ensure the home owner will have enough hot 

7 water for the next 16 on-peak hours. We've 

8 been promoting this technology since the mid9 1980s. 

10 Just this week, Great River Energy 

11 testified at a legislative hearing in 

12 Minnesota, regarding a proposed bill that will 

13 require us to have 40 percent of our energy 

14 coming from renewable resources by the year 

15 2030. Today, the utilities in Minnesota have 

16 to have 25 percent of their energy coming from 

17 renewable resources by the year 2025. 

18 Today, Great River Energy has 470 

19 megawatts of wind turbines that are meeting 12 

20 percent of our energy requirements. To meet 

21 any sort of renewable energy standard in 

22 Minnesota or wherever, you have to have 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 85

1 options. You have to have strategies. You 

2 have to have some way to store energy, 

3 particularly in the off-peak hours when there 

4 is so little demand for energy. Today, we all 

5 know that the industry is searching, doing 

6 intensive research to develop the perfect 

7 battery. Often involves aggregating smaller 

8 batteries together to make a much larger 

9 battery. For example, in Minnesota, Xcel has 

10 a battery that's 1 megawatt in size and it's 

11 made up of 50 KW batteries stacked side by 

12 side, aggregated. 

13 We found our battery, one that 

14 will help us better manage our renewable 

15 energy requirements. It's not fancy. It's 

16 not show stopping technology. It doesn't 

17 warrant much press or discussion. It's a 

18 large capacity electric resistance water 

19 heater. The electric grid doesn't know 

20 whether the storage is electric or whether 

21 it's thermal. You aggregate them together 

22 through a common utility load control strategy 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 86

1 and you have a simple, low cost, nontoxic 

2 battery that charges in the night time hours 

3 and discharges during the day in the form of 

4 hot water. 

5 Our member consumers get what they 

6 want, hot water. Great River Energy gets what 

7 it wants, low cost energy storage. All of our 

8 members benefit when we can better manage our 

9 energy resources. 

10 But DOE understands the need for 

11 energy storage and the potential value that 

12 off-peak water heating can provide. And we 

13 understand that DOE needs assurances that 

14 large capacity water heaters are truly 

15 adhering to utility program. But adding 

16 requirements to the manufacturer or to the 

17 utility is not the answer. 

18 As you've heard earlier, there's 

19 no coordinated distribution network between 

20 co-ops and water heater manufacturers and 

21 there's no standard load control technology. 

22 In fact, the co-ops use a large variety of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 87

1 load control technologies as you've heard. At 

2 Great River Energy, it could be radio 

3 frequency. It could be power line carrier. 

4 It could be paging technology. And we're 

5 working with Honeywell in Minnesota on using 

6 home area networks to control water heaters. 

7 There's going to be a variety of load control 

8 technologies. 

9 Here is what we need and as 

10 important what the DOE should like to offer. 

11 I came here with the notion of I want a new 

12 category of water heating. I want a grid13 enabled water heater, a new category. This is 

14 a different water heater. But we've all heard 

15 about a waiver. The one year waiver process 

16 with a -- replace the one year waiver process 

17 with a simple five-year waiver that evergreens 

18 and cannot be eliminated without three years' 

19 notice. I'm still back on this crazy notion I 

20 want a new category of water heater called the 

21 grid-interactive water heater. 

22 Require that water heaters 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 88

1 receiving the waiver must be shipped from the 

2 factory load control ready, but not with a 

3 specific load control device installed or 

4 packaged with the water heater. 

5 Require water heaters to be 

6 packaged and marketed as grid enabled for use 

7 in utility load control programs, but without 

8 any sales or distribution restrictions. 

9 And lastly, require the utilities 

10 to report in the Energy Information 

11 Administration Form 860 honest, demand 

12 response activities and programs so you can 

13 monitor the leakage if you will. 

14 Without the suggested changes to 

15 the proposed rule, Great River Energy and its 

16 28 member distribution cooperatives will lose 

17 the ability to use large capacity electric 

18 resistance water heaters for our load 

19 management programs at a great cost to our 

20 members. 

21 Thank you. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Next, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 89

1 we're going to hear from Robin Roy. 

2 MR. ROY: Thanks, Doug. Thanks, 

3 John. Thanks, Ashley. Robin Roy, Natural 

4 Resources Defense Council. On behalf of our 

5 1.3 million members and supporters, thank you 

6 for the opportunity to be here this morning 

7 and discuss our initial views of DOE's 

8 proposed waiver for these large electric water 

9 heaters. 

10 We will listen to all these folks 

11 and continue to talk with many of you that 

12 we've already started talking with and 

13 consider further and make a submission and 

14 written comments later. 

15 But NRDC recognizes that the 

16 rapidly emerging prospects for grid 

17 interactive consumer devices and of the 

18 potential benefits that those offer for 

19 economics, for operations, for perhaps 

20 environmental performance, and the changes 

21 they imply for energy consumption. We also 

22 recognize that as a rapidly-emerging field 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 90

1 there is a reasonable lack of data and 

2 analysis and that a degree of speculation is 

3 unavoidable in performing quantitative 

4 assessments. However, it's critical to note 

5 that the water heaters we're discussing today 

6 are far less efficient and would use far more 

7 energy by a factor of two or more than the 

8 water heaters that meet the efficiency 

9 standards adopted by DOE following a rigorous 

10 and extensive, analytically based, 

11 quantitative process over several years. 

12 In light of both the prospective 

13 benefits and the prospective costs and the 

14 uncertainty about both, NRDC supports, and you 

15 can see in our comments to the RFI, NRDC 

16 supports DOE's consideration of a well 

17 designed waiver policy, both to explore the 

18 grid interactive programs that will deliver 

19 net benefits while considering specifically 

20 the energy, economic, and environmental 

21 impacts that result and to facilitate those 

22 programs where the analyses indicates that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 91

1 they are justified. And we suspect they're 

2 going to be justified in a number of cases. 

3 However, DOE's proposed waiver 

4 approach is overly broad. I think that's the 

5 first time we're hearing that this morning. 

6 But we also think it's overly constrained in 

7 line of what you're thinking as well. The way 

8 it's presented would present a significant 

9 loophole risk to bypass the efficiency 

10 standards while not necessarily delivering the 

11 grid interactive benefits, nor allowing DOE 

12 and other interested parties to learn more 

13 about and assess the practical opportunities. 

14 It's actually written so broadly now that it 

15 seems like it might run afoul of the anti16 backsliding provision, but we'll think about 

17 that a little bit more and I suspect you have 

18 as well. 

19 There are several straight-forward 

20 steps that come right to mind that could make 

21 a waiver much more effective than reduce the 

22 risk of it being merely a loophole. First, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 92

1 DOE needs to much more clearly define what is 

2 the hardship that it is intending to address 

3 in terms of the practical effective grid 

4 interactive programs that would be foregone by 

5 these utilities. You just have to define it. 

6 I think we have lots of information what 

7 those are. 

8 Second, DOE, I think, really needs 

9 to present at least some preliminary 

10 quantitative analysis of the energy, economic, 

11 and environmental impacts that would result 

12 from a waiver under a range of foreseeable 

13 circumstances at a reasonable variety of 

14 utility conditions. 

15 Third, DOE needs to assess whether 

16 other existing or emerging products could 

17 perform these grid interactive services, 

18 including whether the devices that comply with 

19 the efficiency standards might perform much or 

20 all of the benefit. Needs to at least address 

21 that and do it quantitatively. 

22 Fourth, I think in designing the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 93

1 waiver process, DOE should really require the 

2 waiver applicants to present some quantitative 

3 assessment of the energy, economic, and 

4 environmental impacts in their specific cases. 

5 These people think a lot about it. Even the 

6 small co-ops have given a lot of thought to 

7 it. They've planned long in advance. They 

8 will be able to do it. It should not be an 

9 overwhelming burden. 

10 And next, I think the waiver 

11 process as I understand it would not be 

12 subject to public review and comment. While I 

13 don't want to suggest there needs to be a 

14 burdensome process, the transparency that 

15 comes with public review and comment is very 

16 helpful and we suggest that really needs to be 

17 a part of any waiver process. 

18 As I mentioned earlier, we note 

19 that the one-year limitation seems to present 

20 some real practical constraints both for 

21 manufacturers and utilities. It's too short a 

22 period for program planning for product 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 94

1 manufacture. 

2 So thanks. We look forward to 

3 working with many of you. Some of you we've 

4 already started working with and coming up 

5 with a process that really works and really 

6 delivers on the opportunity and doesn't just 

7 open a lot of gaps. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Ed 

9 Short. 

10 MR. SHORT: Thank you. I'm Ed 

11 Short, CEO of Covington Electric Cooperative, 

12 a member cooperative of Power South Energy in 

13 South Alabama. Power South Energy serves 20 

14 members, 16 cooperatives, and 4 municipals for 

15 the panhandle in Florida. The rest of them 

16 are principally south Alabama. 

17 I guess enough has probably been 

18 said about the waiver, one year versus five 

19 years which I support at least the five year 

20 process. 

21 I want to just talk a little bit 

22 about what we're doing in an infancy program 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 95

1 of load control at Power South. In the three 

2 years, four years that this program has been 

3 in effect, there's seven active participants 

4 out of the 20 at Power South. Those seven are 

5 saving in the range of a half million dollars 

6 a year on capacity charges with 10,000 

7 controlled objects in the field. We're 

8 projecting this to grow to $1.5 million 

9 savings per year for our member systems. 

10 We understand that you are working 

11 under the needle approach, threading the 

12 needle, and we appreciate your efforts to 

13 address this issue. But the other issue that 

14 we found in this infancy program is that in 

15 those small numbers that we have at this time, 

16 there's four different technologies being used 

17 for the switching program. So that supports 

18 the idea that one size fits all does not 

19 really work. 

20 So in essence of time, thank you 

21 for the opportunity for us to make these 

22 comments and we look forward to presenting 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 96

1 additional data later. Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for 

3 summarizing your comments. 

4 Tom Holt. 

5 MR. HOLT: Thank you. My name is 

6 Tom Holt. I'm representing East River 

7 Electric Power Cooperative from Madison, South 

8 Dakota. We represent 25 distribution 

9 cooperatives serving over a quarter of a 

10 million people in eastern South Dakota and 

11 western Minnesota. Greetings from the Great 

12 Plains. 

13 Thank you for giving us this 

14 opportunity to comment on this very important 

15 issue. As has been said a lot of the items 

16 that have comments on have been brought up 

17 before so I'll try and keep it brief and just 

18 summarize. 

19 Again, large capacity electric 

20 water heaters are essential and critical to a 

21 load management program that East River has 

22 been conducting for its distribution systems 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 97

1 for over 29 years. And we find this an 

2 extremely concerning issue and it will have a 

3 great effect on our consumers. 

4 Being a consumer-owned, not-for5 profit utility, we are very concerned about 

6 the cost to the end consumer because they are 

7 our owner members and so we are doing 

8 everything we can to offer them choices for 

9 energy efficiency, always have, always will, 

10 and as well as minimizing construction of new 

11 generating facilities. So our primary mission 

12 and goal is to provide value to our members 

13 and to their end consumer members as well. 

14 Having said all of that, that 

15 quarter of a million people, over half of them 

16 are participating in our load management 

17 program at this point. The primary thing that 

18 they participate with is the large capacity 

19 electric resistance water heaters, the vast 

20 majority, 85- and 105-gallon units. We use 

21 this, of course, to moderate system load 

22 during peak times, shift it to off-peak times. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 98

1 And these storage units have to have capacity 

2 to be able to do that. They also have to be 

3 able to respond quickly to that so that we can 

4 lower demand negating the need for building 

5 additional generation. 

6 Direct savings from the control of 

7 these large capacity water heaters has totaled 

8 27.7 megawatts per month and this has been 

9 translating into approximately $5.2 million 

10 per year in savings for our consumers and 

11 that's not counting avoided cost of new 

12 transmission and generating resources that are 

13 not needed to deliver this power. 

14 Our load control program has been 

15 overwhelmingly successful. It is a voluntary 

16 program. I need to emphasize that. It's up 

17 to our members to participate. We do not 

18 enforce any kind of rules that they must 

19 participate. It's a totally voluntary program 

20 and we have the ability because of the great 

21 success of that, to control over 24 percent of 

22 our system load. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 99

1 We're presently at about 75 

2 percent of our end consumers have electric 

3 water heaters. As was mentioned, there's a 

4 lot of areas out in our area that do not have 

5 access to natural gas. We have about 75 

6 percent penetration of electric water heaters 

7 and 70 percent of that penetration are large 

8 capacity units. And so again, a lot of those 

9 large capacity units have been installed over 

10 the years. 

11 The other piece that has not been 

12 mentioned a lot is again this opportunity 

13 afforded by the grid connected, quick 

14 response, large capacity water heaters to be 

15 used in other smart grid applications. Just 

16 last month, East River Electric Power 

17 Cooperative was named by the Department of 

18 Energy as Wind Cooperative of the Year. We 

19 are very in tune with the renewable energies. 

20 And so we have over ten percent of our power 

21 supply that we provide to the distribution 

22 cooperatives that own us is provided by wind 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 100

1 resources. 

2 In addition, 22 percent of the 

3 power supply is hydroelectric resources. So 

4 these are very important to us and we know 

5 that as technology advances, utilization of 

6 this vast number of large capacity resistance 

7 water heaters would allow us to store this 

8 renewable energy for fitting succinctly with 

9 DOE's objectives in other areas. So for 

10 increased use renewables, this is a very 

11 important issue. 

12 Again, we recognize that DOE 

13 hasn't seen the tremendous value of these 

14 large capacity water heaters. We thank you 

15 for this look at this and we do have concerns 

16 though with it. Like Gary, we're hoping for a 

17 change and a new classification. The one-year 

18 waiver that's been proposed to thread this 

19 needle just is not a workable situation for us 

20 for a number of the reasons that were 

21 mentioned. 

22 Our members get their water 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 101

1 heaters at a variety of sources. We're not in 

2 the business to sell water heaters. Some of 

3 our distribution co-ops do because there's 

4 none available elsewhere, but most of our end 

5 consumers buy them from the local plumbers, 

6 big box stores, and in some cases the electric 

7 co-op. So the fact that trying to coordinate 

8 all of that and set up a program that works 

9 that way is very impractical. 

10 Load control receivers, again, we 

11 have a problem with the requirement that the 

12 load control receiver be installed at the 

13 manufacturer because we have a lot of 

14 installation where our load control receiver 

15 controls a number of other appliances in the 

16 house. Most typically, it's the air 

17 conditioning unit or the heat pump unit. And 

18 so having it installed on the water heater 

19 itself would just be a duplication. We would 

20 probably have to not use that. It would 

21 increase costs to the consumer, an already 

22 fairly expensive piece of equipment. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 102

1 We utilize our incentives to 

2 encourage our members to participate in this 

3 voluntary program which also helps us defray 

4 the cost of new generating sources and so this 

5 one year waiver process in the proposed rule 

6 needs to be replaced with something that's 

7 much more workable, that will provide us 

8 certainty and simplicity that we need to 

9 continue to offer our members the benefits of 

10 the demand response program that has been very 

11 successful for many, many years. Thank you. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Dave 

13 Graves. 

14 MR. GRAVES: My name is Dave 

15 Graves. I'm a senior member services 

16 associate with Eau Claire Energy Cooperative, 

17 a member-owned distribution cooperative with 

18 headquarters in Fall Creek, Wisconsin. I 

19 would also like to thank you for the 

20 opportunity to comment on this issue that is 

21 very important to our members. 

22 Approximately 5,000 of our 10,600 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 103

1 members participate in our water heater load 

2 management programs. For over 30 years, these 

3 programs have provided load shedding 

4 capability to the cooperative, along with cost 

5 savings ranging between $36 to well over $100 

6 per year for our members. Most of our members 

7 don't have natural gas, so LP or fuel oil 

8 would be the alternatives to electric water 

9 heaters and both of these options typically 

10 have higher operating costs than electric 

11 water heaters particularly when you factor in 

12 the savings from load management programs. 

13 The large capacity resistance 

14 water heaters have been the backbone of our 

15 load management programs for years. We have 

16 learned that without them these programs would 

17 be nowhere near as successful. The small 

18 water heaters just don't provide enough 

19 storage capacity for our members. The large 

20 capacity Marathon water heaters we sell are 

21 all high energy factor models. They provide 

22 our members the capacity to allow 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 104

1 participation in our programs and also do so 

2 in many cases, if not most, with an actual 

3 reduction in energy use when compared to the 

4 standard water heaters that we would otherwise 

5 typically find in homes. 

6 A recent trip to a large home 

7 improvement store locally found four 50-gallon 

8 models available. Of these, three had actual 

9 energy usage higher than even the 85- and 105-

10 gallon water heaters we offer. Another 

11 important aspect of a water heater purchase to 

12 our members is the tank warranty. In our 

13 area, quite often five to seven years is all 

14 they can expect out of a metal tank water 

15 heater. Unfortunately, we do not feel the 

16 proposed rule to allow a one-year waiver for 

17 the production of these large capacity water 

18 heaters would give our members the confidence 

19 to invest in a higher quality water heater if 

20 they can't be assured the replacement water 

21 heater would be available should they have a 

22 warranty claim. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 105

1 In addition, we feel the proposed 

2 waiver process assumes a working relationship 

3 between utilities and manufacturers that is 

4 currently not in place and is unlikely to 

5 develop. It is a very uncertain process that 

6 seems detrimental to the continuation of 

7 existing load management programs. 

8 Also, installation of load 

9 management equipment by the water heater 

10 manufacturer, even if it could be the type of 

11 equipment each utility is currently using, in 

12 many cases would not meet the needs of the 

13 utilities. We locate our load management 

14 equipment on the outside of the home for ease 

15 of access should servicing be needed. It is 

16 much harder to get inside the home, more time 

17 consuming, and expensive if we have to get 

18 inside to service a unit. 

19 In addition, we often use one load 

20 management to control multiple loads at the 

21 home. An example of this, as mentioned, would 

22 be one receiver being utilized to control both 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 106

1 a water heater and a central air conditioning 

2 unit. If the receiver was located on the 

3 water heater, this would often not be feasible 

4 and would add additional expense to those 

5 installations. 

6 So while we appreciate DOE's 

7 attempt to offer the waiver option as a means 

8 to ensure that large capacity water heaters 

9 will continue to be available, we don't feel 

10 that the current structure of that waiver 

11 process will accomplish this. We would hope 

12 that this waiver process could be simplified 

13 and that the waiver term could be increased to 

14 a minimum of five years and hopefully longer, 

15 if not entirely eliminated. 

16 In addition, we would like to see 

17 the mandatory installation of load management 

18 equipment by the manufacturer dropped. This 

19 would allow us to ensure that the proper 

20 equipment is installed in the most cost21 effective manner for each installation. We 

22 urge DOE to consider these changes to ensure 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 107

1 that large capacity water heaters can continue 

2 to be an integral component of successful load 

3 management programs and continue to offer our 

4 members the savings opportunities provided by 

5 these programs. Thank you again for this 

6 opportunity. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff Springer. 

8 MR. SPRINGER: Hi, I'm Jeff 

9 Springer with Dairyland Power Cooperative 

10 located in La Crosse, Wisconsin. I want to 

11 thank you for the chance to comment on these 

12 proposed rules. 

13 Water heaters are the backbone of 

14 our load control system which helps provide 

15 our members with reliable and affordable 

16 electricity. Most of our 250,000 members are 

17 located in rural areas where natural gas is 

18 not available. And while the cost of liquid 

19 propane does fluctuate, electric storage water 

20 heating is typically significantly less costly 

21 than water heating with liquid propane. 

22 Our first area of concern is the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 108

1 requirement that a load control device be 

2 installed on the water heater before it leaves 

3 the factory. Within our own system, we 

4 currently have two distinct control devices 

5 that are in use for resistance water heaters. 

6 One is the traditional radial base control 

7 and the other is a grid interactive broadband 

8 control with expanded capabilities that 

9 promise to enhance the ability to integrate 

10 renewable energy into our system by providing 

11 fast response and modulated control. 

12 It would be impossible for a 

13 manufacturer to install the right control for 

14 the end user given that wide variety of 

15 systems in use by utilities. 

16 Dairyland does understand the 

17 concern about limiting the number of these 

18 water heaters that are sold without 

19 participating in a load management system. 

20 However, we feel that the use of these water 

21 heaters in areas without load control programs 

22 would be self-limiting. It doesn't require 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 109

1 the installation of a factory control. 

2 A check of the local branch of the 

3 Nationwide home improvement store found an 80-

4 gallon water heater priced at $739 which is a 

5 $470 premium over a 50-gallon model. No 

6 rational consumer will pay that premium unless 

7 there's the promise of future rate savings 

8 through participation in the utility load 

9 control program. The 80-gallon heat pump 

10 water heater available at the same store was 

11 priced at $2,399 which illustrates one reason 

12 why large heat pump water heaters are not an 

13 economical alternative for our program. 

14 The second area of concern is the 

15 complexity and short duration of the proposed 

16 waiver process requiring detailed information 

17 about each model of water heater, which 

18 utilities they have been sold to, creates an 

19 unreasonable burden for manufacturers and 

20 utilities. Surely, summary data provided 

21 annually by the manufacturers, coupled with 

22 data provided by utilities on Form 861 would 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 110

1 be adequate to determine the number of water 

2 heaters that are being sold without being 

3 controlled on a load control system. 

4 The potential additional energy 

5 use of a few uncontrolled large water heaters 

6 would be minimal and does not seem to justify 

7 the cumbersome waiver process that's proposed. 

8 And on the last point I'll just chime in with 

9 the rest of the folks on the five-year waiver 

10 proposal. It seems a lot more reasonable to 

11 us. 

12 So for the reasons outlined above, 

13 we urge DOE to make the changes to the 

14 proposed waiver process for large resistance 

15 water heaters to preserve the economic benefit 

16 that they provide to consumers in rural areas. 

17 Thank you. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jeremy 

19 Mahawold. 

20 MR. MAHAWOLD: Hello. My name is 

21 Jeremy Mahawold with Cass County Electric in 

22 Fargo, North Dakota. Thank you for this 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 111

1 opportunity to speak on the issue of demand 

2 response, its important and effective role 

3 with large water heaters and electric thermal 

4 storage. 

5 I'm encouraged the Department of 

6 Energy has recognized the significant benefit 

7 to end-use consumers as an effective means for 

8 managing peak loads. 

9 Cass County Electric is an 

10 electric distribution cooperative in 

11 southeastern North Dakota owned by the 38,000 

12 consumers we serve electricity to. We have a 

13 strong history of load management at Cass 

14 County Electric with nearly one third of all 

15 of our accounts participating in a wide 

16 variety of residential, commercial, 

17 industrial, agricultural demand response 

18 programs. 

19 Although we are still winter 

20 peaking, Cass County Electric recognized the 

21 importance of thermal storage water heating in 

22 the late '90s when summer demand was becoming 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 112

1 an expensive issue for us. We saw the need to 

2 incentivize the installation of large water 

3 heaters, 100 gallons or larger, to be able to 

4 sustain long durations of control needed in 

5 summer peaking conditions with 50 gallon units 

6 were not capable of. 

7 We also quickly saw the value of 

8 using these water heaters for load shaping as 

9 well because of their large thermal storage 

10 capacity and we effectively cycled these 

11 through our morning and evening peaks every 

12 day throughout the winter. So this is very 

13 valuable to us and for it we can give a much 

14 stronger incentive to the consumer. 

15 So I have come here to Washington 

16 with thanks to the Department of Energy for 

17 their interest in making rules that allow the 

18 continued use of this program. I am concerned, 

19 however, like others regarding some aspects of 

20 this waiver proposal. I believe a one year 

21 waiver period will leave a constant doubt in 

22 the sustainability or longevity in the program 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 113

1 and will make decision making difficult in 

2 ordering units, marketing to consumers or 

3 making recommendations for upcoming building 

4 projects. 

5 This program takes considerable time to 

6 establish in the one-year program -- one-year 

7 waiver does not complement this program. 

8 Another concern I share with 

9 others is the complexity of the waiver, 

10 specifically with including or installing the 

11 load control device on the unit. I feel this 

12 requirement would be too restrictive as is and 

13 the coordination between utility and 

14 manufacturer would be a very difficult 

15 challenge to overcome. 

16 I would recommend that you replace 

17 the one-year waiver with a five year, less 

18 complex waiver and for the same concerns I 

19 mentioned earlier there should be a three-year 

20 notice to the end of the program so if that 

21 were to occur, we could wind down the program 

22 economically and communicate it properly. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 114

1 The large capacity water heater 

2 demand response program is an effective tool 

3 and one I hope we don't lose. The incidence 

4 of gas water heaters in our service area is 

5 very low and natural gas availability does not 

6 extend for more than a couple of miles outside 

7 of Fargo and West Fargo. 

8 We're hopeful for it, but the 

9 feasibility of top of tank heat pump water 

10 heaters is not yet an economically good 

11 solution in our very cold climate. I'm 

12 concerned that without significant 

13 improvements to the proposed rule, most 

14 consumers in our region would revert to a 50-

15 gallon electric water heater and we would lose 

16 our summer demand response capability, our 

17 winter load shaping ability, and the progress 

18 we've made on water heaters so far. 

19 For these reasons, I and the 

20 members at Cass County Electric urge you to 

21 consider these comments. And thank you for 

22 the invitation and your consideration. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 115

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jimmy 

2 Baker. 

3 MR. J. BAKER: Good morning. I'm 

4 Jimmy Baker, vice president -- 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Jimmy, please turn 

6 on your microphone. Thank you. 

7 MR. J. BAKER: I'm Jimmy Baker, 

8 vice president of Marketing and Public 

9 Relations at Palmetto Electric Cooperative 

10 headquartered in Ridgeland, South Carolina. 

11 On behalf of Palmetto Electric Co-op's 670,000 

12 consumer members from the South Carolina Low 

13 Country, thank you for providing me with the 

14 opportunity to comment on this very important 

15 issue. 

16 Load management and large capacity 

17 electric resistance water heaters go hand in 

18 hand with our effort to save money and energy 

19 for our members. We know that you know the 

20 tremendous value of electric thermal storage 

21 large capacity water heaters. And we're 

22 certainly encouraged by the recognition that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 116

1 something needs to be done to limit the effect 

2 of the April 2010 efficiency rule on our use 

3 of those water heaters for controlling demand. 

4 For over 20 years, Palmetto 

5 Electric has controlled large capacity 

6 electric resistance water heaters to manage 

7 our peak load. Our members heat water and 

8 store it when demand is low and power costs 

9 are too. Our members benefit from these cost 

10 savings. Currently, Palmetto Electric Co-op 

11 serves more than 35,000 water heaters under 

12 our load control program. That's pretty good, 

13 well over half of our members. That's close 

14 to $100 per year for every direct control 

15 device that is in operation. We reduce 

16 demand, the cooperative and its members save 

17 money, $3.4 million annually. That's serious 

18 money for our members. 

19 And there are other financial 

20 incentives to participate in the program as 

21 well including rebates, interest-free loans, 

22 and water heater maintenance. Furthermore, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 117

1 the use of our demand response large capacity 

2 storage program decreases the need for 

3 additional generation and its associated cost 

4 and lessens environmental impact. 

5 There are two combustion turbines 

6 that are not in place in our state and not 

7 running in our state because Palmetto Electric 

8 and other South Carolina co-ops operate this 

9 demand response program. Unfortunately, the 

10 DOE proposed rule does not effectively address 

11 the threat to our program posed by the 2010 

12 efficiency standard. Respectfully, we reject 

13 the basic premise of the 2010 standard that 

14 large capacity electric water heaters use 

15 significantly more energy than small electric 

16 tanks. A research study performed by a major 

17 university found the difference between large 

18 and small electric storage water heaters was 

19 negligible. In some cases, it found large 

20 tanks actually use less energy than small 

21 tanks. 

22 The 2010 standard will only allow 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 118

1 for large capacity tanks to be heat pump water 

2 heaters. While heat pump water heaters are 

3 efficient, their use is not economically or 

4 technically adequate in the demand response 

5 thermal storage program we offer our consumer 

6 members. For example, we serve thousands of 

7 mobile homes, condos, and apartments under our 

8 program that currently use 80-gallon water 

9 heaters located in small closets or interior 

10 utility areas. In most of these locations, 

11 heat pump water heaters would not fit, would 

12 not have adequate air circulation, and would 

13 not have a place to drain the condensate. 

14 The only option available for 

15 these members will be to install small 

16 capacity electric water heaters not feasible 

17 under our load control program. The DOE 

18 proposed waiver is simply unworkable due to 

19 the annual duration of the waiver and the 

20 troublesome conditions proposed by the rule. 

21 A one-year waiver does not give our 

22 cooperative enough certainty to maintain our 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 119

1 load management program. Development and 

2 implementation of our program is based on a 

3 ten-year window. If we do not know year to 

4 year whether the water heaters we need for our 

5 program will be available, we cannot justify 

6 continued investment in the program. 

7 The strict conditions placed on 

8 the waiver process are also overly burdensome 

9 and impractical. We connect approximately 

10 1,000 new water heaters per year under our 

11 program. Of these, about 40 percent are 

12 purchased from the co-op. The balance is 

13 purchased from local vendors. This proposed 

14 waiver would take away the local business and 

15 limit choices such as brand, warranty, tank 

16 dimensions, et cetera. The waiver's limit 

17 could result in shortages due to varying 

18 demand for water heaters. Members don't 

19 usually plan to replace a water heater. They 

20 replace them when they fail. 

21 The DOE proposed waiver to include 

22 load control devices at the point of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 120

1 manufacture is also not practical. Palmetto 

2 Electric has used at least six different 

3 control devices over the past years. 

4 Currently, we use a power line carrier which 

5 has two different models based on voltage. 

6 All of the devices we use are installed in the 

7 equipment connecting to the water heater, not 

8 attached directly to the water heater. The 

9 load control device has two relays and 

10 sometimes is connected to other loads such as 

11 the air conditioner or a pool pump. We must 

12 have flexibility to use a different control 

13 device if the one included with the unit is 

14 not compatible with our system. 

15 We would respectfully suggest that 

16 you replace the one-year waiver process in the 

17 proposed rule with a simple waiver that will 

18 last at least five years and eliminate the 

19 strict conditions placed on the waiver that 

20 make it burdensome and impractical. Your 

21 decision about making changes to the proposal 

22 will have a big impact. Without change, we 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 121

1 may lose the ability to use large water 

2 heaters for our load management program. That 

3 will cost us and more importantly it will come 

4 at great cost to our members. 

5 Thank you so much for considering 

6 these important issues with your proposal. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Amy 

8 Bryan. 

9 MS. BRYAN: On behalf of Jackson 

10 EMC, I'd like to thank you for inviting us up 

11 here today to talk about water heating. 

12 Jackson EMC is the second largest electric 

13 cooperative in the nation, headquartered 

14 outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And we currently 

15 serve 208,000 meters. 

16 We have a tremendously long-term 

17 dedication to energy efficiency load 

18 management. These programs have maximized our 

19 system efficiency and helped us keep our rates 

20 low for our members. And I personally have 

21 been involved with these programs for 36 

22 years. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 122

1 About the waiver system, Jackson 

2 EMC does not agree with a temporary solution, 

3 believing that limited quantity agreements 

4 could produce higher retail rates for the same 

5 product that you could buy today. The annual 

6 loophole temporary solution would leave all 

7 parties in limbo from year to year. And 

8 Jackson EMC is a utility that does not want to 

9 become a water heater retailer or installer. 

10 We believe that the more traditional 

11 distribution chains can serve the customer 

12 better across our service territory. 

13 And determining accurate numbers 

14 every year, because customers replace water 

15 heaters when they break would also be a 

16 difficulty. I think I'm sitting in good 

17 company today. I didn't realize it when I sat 

18 down. But we support creating a new product 

19 class for a grid smart water heater, a more 

20 permanent solution. It's a concept supported 

21 by both manufacturers and utility 

22 organizations. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 123

1 I am aware of the anti-backsliding 

2 provision that seems to conflict with this. 

3 However, we believe it should be reviewed. 

4 During the original policy with smart grid 

5 technology being considered as a service 

6 approach. Jackson EMC supports the role of 

7 the DOE as an objective facilitator to allow 

8 the best ideas to prove themselves. And 

9 therefore, Jackson EMC believes that a grid 

10 interactive grid smart water heating 

11 technology and a separate product 

12 classification should be further evaluated. 

13 The energy factor of this separate 

14 product with further research would have an 

15 adjustment factor for the demand response and 

16 grid efficiency measures that it could 

17 contribute. These additional factors would 

18 mitigate the energy efficiency differences 

19 between an electric resistance water heater 

20 and a heat pump water heater. 

21 The separate class would make the 

22 supply chain more efficient for manufacturers, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 124

1 they could create a competitive product that 

2 would be available for a customer to purchase 

3 in a more traditional supply chain. 

4 We're concerned about our members. 

5 This new product class and some of the 

6 information from water heater manufacturers 

7 and the consumer electronics organization, the 

8 information that I've gotten a hold of is that 

9 meeting this new consumer electronic standard 

10 would anywhere from $1 to $10 to a traditional 

11 tank water heater to make it grid smart. That 

12 would be a more interesting approach for a 

13 product to offer to our customers and not 

14 drive the price up 75 percent to a different 

15 technology. 

16 Jackson EMC's commitment to energy 

17 efficiency programs is 37 years in the new 

18 construction market. And over 50 years in the 

19 existing home market with the bulk of that 

20 offering cutting-edge technology such as home 

21 performance testing. And we want to implement 

22 and we're dedicated to implementing a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 125

1 responsible water heating program that meets 

2 or exceeds industry standards and provides 

3 member customer satisfaction and thank you for 

4 listening today. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Eddie 

6 Plowden. 

7 MR. PLOWDEN: I'm Eddie Plowden 

8 with Berkeley Electric Cooperative. I'm 

9 marketing manager from South Carolina. 

10 Berkeley Electric Cooperative would like to 

11 thank the DOE for allowing us to talk about 

12 this very important feature. I listened to 

13 the cooperatives and I'm concerned about 

14 eliminating the 80-gallon electric resistance 

15 water heater. 

16 It has proven to be a very 

17 valuable load management resource for our 

18 members for over 25 years. BEC is the largest 

19 electric cooperative in South Carolina with 

20 approximately 26,000 homes out of 70,000 

21 residential accounts. Thirty-seven percent of 

22 our members have electric resistance water 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 126

1 heaters participating in our load management 

2 program and saving our members a net of over 

3 $1 million per year in power costs. 

4 The 80-gallon water heater is a 

5 major part of the program and the best option 

6 for our members who have large families, 

7 needing more capacity and also volume builders 

8 that do not know the number of folks living, 

9 going to be occupying the home. The heaters 

10 cost only $140 more than the 50-gallon tank 

11 when purchasing them for our warranty program. 

12 For our water heater rebate program, we 

13 prefer for members and builders to purchase 

14 the water heaters from their suppliers. Also, 

15 a study done by Central Power Cooperative 

16 showed that there was very little difference 

17 in operating costs between the 80- and 50-

18 gallon tank. This makes the large capacity 

19 water heater a very wise investment for our 

20 members. 

21 Some homes will be eliminated from 

22 participating in the load management program 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 127

1 due to limited space to install dual smaller 

2 tanks. This mostly includes smaller homes and 

3 mobile homes. These members will also have a 

4 very difficult time with the heat pump water 

5 heater because of limited space and also 

6 noise. 

7 Hybrid electric water heating 

8 systems. The electric resistance water heater 

9 system efficiency can be increased to the 

10 target 2.0 COP, co-efficiency of performance 

11 with a combination of devices working with 

12 electric resistance water heater. An example 

13 is geothermal heating/cooling systems can use 

14 the hot gas from the compressor tube to 

15 provide hot water. This geothermal 

16 combination is popular with our geothermal 

17 heating and cooling rebate program which has 

18 been available to our members since 1995. 

19 This combination is also available with our 

20 load management program. Additionally, the 

21 split system air source water heater can be 

22 used to achieve the same system co-efficiency 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 128

1 of performance goal when combined with the 

2 electric resistance water heater. And this 

3 would address to a certain degree the leakage 

4 that would shock them out in the market, that 

5 these heaters should be considered as also 

6 meeting the 2.0 COP system efficiency. 

7 Waiver. We support NRECA's 

8 proposal to allow the production of the 80-

9 gallon and large capacity water heaters for a 

10 five-year period to work better with the 

11 utility programs and to keep the costs of the 

12 tanks competitive. Tracking the tanks could 

13 be matched with utility load management 

14 programs through the EIA. 

15 Load-control devices. Like 

16 Palmetto and other co-ops, we've gone through 

17 five or six different load management devices 

18 and we currently install radio-control devices 

19 or power line carrier switches at the water 

20 heater on the wall. This allows the heaters 

21 that leak and need to be replaced retain the 

22 load management switch into the future with 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 129

1 other tank changeouts. 

2 Again, we support the five-year 

3 waiver which will benefit our members and we 

4 request that DOE not take away the right to 

5 purchase the 80-gallon large capacity electric 

6 resistance water heater away from our members. 

7 Thank you. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rick 

9 Gerdeman. No? Paul Steffes. 

10 MR. STEFFES: Good morning. I'll 

11 be short. There's lots of things I won't 

12 repeat. I'm Paul Steffes with Steffes 

13 Corporation of Dickinson, North Dakota. And 

14 for the last 25 years we've been involved with 

15 literally hundreds of electric utilities to 

16 help them implement successful load management 

17 programs. These programs help utilities to 

18 effectively reduce peak power needs thereby 

19 having significant reductions in cost. 

20 The savings from these activities 

21 are passed along to the consumers through 

22 lower electric rates. We manufacture electric 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 130

1 thermal storage space heating equipment and 

2 water heater controls in the United States 

3 which are tools used within utility demand 

4 response programs and have about 100,000 

5 installations in the U.S. and Canada. 

6 Large capacity water heaters are a 

7 critical part of the program as they provide 

8 flexible resources, year round controlled 

9 capacity for utilities. Without storage water 

10 heaters many long standing, highly useful 

11 demand response programs will end. 

12 In October of 2006, we learned the 

13 workings of ancillary service markets and ISOs 

14 and RTOs. Ever since then, Steffes has worked 

15 hard to develop a system grid-interactive 

16 electric thermal storage water heaters, space 

17 and water heaters that can provide these 

18 valuable grid balancing, stabilization, 

19 renewable integration, and reliability 

20 enhancing services at a fraction of the cost 

21 of other electric storage technologies. 

22 For the last six years, Steffes 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 131

1 has invested heavily in the development of 

2 interactive controls to allow utilities to 

3 interface with large capacity water heaters. 

4 Grid-interactive water heaters respond to the 

5 real-time needs of the electric grid while 

6 providing affordable storage demand response, 

7 grid regulation, integration of ever8 increasing percentage of renewable energy and 

9 other critical needs of utilities. 

10 For the past three years, we've 

11 been demonstrating these technologies, 

12 advancements, and great benefits to the fast13 acting, affordable storage solutions with 20 

14 utilities. 

15 Certainly, everything else is kind 

16 of talking what everyone else has said. 

17 Certainly, the unworkable one year, the 

18 reporting requirements is we feel unworkable 

19 and we ask the DOE to look at possibly the 

20 five year limited restriction solution and 

21 allow for large capacity water heaters to be 

22 manufactured in the United States to be sold 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 132

1 to provide affordable electricity storage, 

2 demand response, and grid optimization 

3 services. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for 

5 summarizing your remarks. Earl Jones, you're 

6 next. 

7 MR. JONES: Okay, good morning. 

8 First of all, I hope you all will bear with 

9 me. Some of things I wanted to say are in 

10 somewhat response to some of the comments that 

11 I've heard this morning, but obviously G.E. 

12 supports these programs. The issue that I 

13 think we understand the issue to be whether or 

14 not the proposal would eliminate these 

15 programs and my understanding is it would not. 

16 Some have asked for some transition period 

17 and it's my understanding that what's being 

18 transitioned here is technology and therefore, 

19 there's no need for transition time. 

20 The technology transition we're 

21 talking about, of course, is heat pump water 

22 heaters. We've heard the comments about some 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 133

1 of the issues with heat pump water heaters. I 

2 think we'll be addressing some of those. 

3 Today, we have a presentation we'd like to 

4 share with you all if you can bear with us. 

5 But the fact is we've demonstrated that, in 

6 fact, these products can work for programs 

7 such as EPS. They have the capacity to store 

8 water at the temperatures required. They have 

9 the ability -- they have great interactive 

10 devices to shift load very effectively. 

11 And I think the thing most 

12 critical if you look at the objective that the 

13 original final rule was trying to achieve and 

14 which heat pump water heaters would allowed to 

15 be preserved and that is that they are 

16 extremely efficient and they will save 

17 significant sums for the consumers, savings 

18 that will far outweigh the savings that have 

19 been cited by some of the earlier commenters 

20 to the individual consumers. 

21 And by the way, to the same extent 

22 then, therefore save money for the generators 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 134

1 because your generating capacity will 

2 necessarily be reduced to the extent that you 

3 don't have to provide that level of support. 

4 As I said, our data shows that 

5 these products work well. We have done pilot 

6 projects which we'll share with you today with 

7 the results. These products are widely 

8 available. I've heard some of you indicate 

9 that particular products may be either too 

10 large or too noisy or too costly. The thing 

11 that struck me most of all with all the 

12 utilities who maintain these programs is the 

13 ability to use your power basically to work 

14 with providers to come up with solutions that 

15 I think your market power could command. I 

16 think that you're in a position to help shape 

17 what comes out of this not by a retrograde 

18 response to this rule, but instead by working 

19 with manufacturers and by settling upon 

20 appropriate technology, communications 

21 technology and other devices and to make this 

22 work. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 135

1 We are concerned that if this 

2 waiver is granted, that it really will be kind 

3 of like a back door backsliding effectively 

4 because the only reason for a waiver is if no 

5 effective technology is available to satisfy 

6 the requirements of the final rule. That 

7 technology exists. 

8 As we calculate it, allowing this 

9 waiver would, in effect, enable as many as 

10 three million units to participate. We're not 

11 talking about simply preserving those units 

12 which are in effect today. You're talking 

13 about creating the ability to expand those 

14 programs significantly, to encompass as many 

15 as three million plus units. That's something 

16 that because it allows for that significance 

17 would effectively be kind of like a 

18 backsliding. So that's another reason why we 

19 oppose this. 

20 At the end of the day, I mean this 

21 comes down to the question of the extensive 

22 analyses that was done by the DOE in the final 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 136

1 rule, despite by all the anecdotal comments 

2 made today, the real question is what is the 

3 data that supports any kind of effort to say 

4 that's not workable? 

5 I was struck by the fact that 

6 someone commented that in their same service 

7 territory that they have apartment and I guess 

8 trailer homes in small spaces which may not 

9 accommodate a heat pump water heater, but at 

10 the same time their controls also affect pool 

11 pumps. So that's an example of the kind of 

12 disparate fact pattern that I think unless we 

13 have way better data than so far we've heard 

14 presented today, the DOE would actually be 

15 acting inappropriately in granting this 

16 proposal. 

17 So my colleague, Mr. Zimmer, has a 

18 presentation. If you will bear with us and 

19 again, I think it just demonstrates the data 

20 that we're talking about and the basis on 

21 which we've actually come up with these 

22 conclusions that this transition is 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 137

1 appropriate and can be done certainly by 2015. 

2 MR. ZIMMER: Good morning. My 

3 name is Tom Zimmer. I'm with General Electric 

4 out of Louisville, Kentucky. What I'd like to 

5 share with you this morning is some of the 

6 study and some of the work we've done around 

7 application of heat pump water heater in light 

8 of the programs that we're discussing. 

9 To begin with, we wanted to take a 

10 look at the market and Earl has touched on 

11 this briefly already in terms of scope of the 

12 market. When you look at the breakout of 

13 electric water heating we've heard it from a 

14 number of the commenters this morning. 

15 Electric water heating is an important piece 

16 of the overall residential exposure in the 

17 country. When you break out the large 

18 capacity size that steps that down slightly, 

19 but it's still a significant number of people 

20 that are participating with large electric 

21 water heaters today. 

22 Given some of the statistics this 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 138

1 morning this may be understated. It may be 

2 relatively accurate. Of those that are using 

3 large water heaters, a third to -- we've heard 

4 as much as half of the people who have those 

5 water heaters participate in these demand 

6 programs, these ETS programs generating some 

7 level of savings for themselves and 

8 appropriately addressing the concerns of the 

9 utility. 

10 When we take a look at what that 

11 can mean from a consumer impact, again, the 

12 trade off in technology is the thing that we 

13 want to be sure that we highlight and the 

14 application of technology and what you're 

15 seeing this morning. Up to three million 

16 consumers based on that demographic breakout 

17 and application in programs could be affected. 

18 The trade off in savings between applying 

19 heat pump technology in those consumers' homes 

20 and participating in an ETS program leads to a 

21 net of about $380 a year difference to each 

22 consumer participating, significant, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 139

1 significant overall savings to consumers 

2 across the country. 

3 From utility impact perspective, 

4 again, the application of that heat pump water 

5 heating technology per the existing final rule 

6 allows the need to produce and generate at 

7 those levels not only during peak periods, but 

8 throughout the entire day, it reduces it 

9 dramatically, 50 percent or more. 

10 We've got a couple of supporting 

11 studies that I do want to take the team 

12 through or the group through this morning. 

13 The first is a study taking a look 

14 specifically at appropriate application in an 

15 ETS program of heat pump technology versus 

16 traditional electric resistance water heating. 

17 This comparison looks at initially the 

18 ability to store energy as a battery in that 

19 application. Column to the left shows the 

20 ability to store with 120 gallon tank. We 

21 have got a temperature difference in this 

22 chart, slight temperature difference, but 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 140

1 achievable with the technologies. The column 

2 to the right is an 80-gallon heat pump water 

3 heater. Every unit can appropriately store 

4 energy at equivalent levels. 

5 This is where the difference 

6 begins to become apparent. When you look at 

7 the electricity consumed to achieve that level 

8 of energy storage, the heat pump water heaters 

9 are using roughly half of what it takes in a 

10 resistance element unit to achieve the same 

11 storage. When you translate that to the 

12 savings to the consumer, it becomes clear that 

13 the true, in-the-pocket savings to each 

14 consumer that's affected becomes meaningful 

15 and significant throughout the course of the 

16 year. 

17 The next project I want to talk 

18 about addresses the ability to shift load and 

19 this is a real-world application. We've put 

20 30 units in a location in Kentucky, Glasgow, 

21 Kentucky. These are being controlled, 

22 monitored. Each of the units is being studied 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 141

1 day by day, month by month. As they've been 

2 out, they now have been out for a couple of 

3 years. We're going to look at two snapshots 

4 in time. 

5 Ten of the homes are put on a 

6 baseline electric resistance unit. That's the 

7 red line that you see. This is the energy use 

8 pattern throughout the course of the day. The 

9 peaks that everyone is concerned about are 

10 apparent in the use pattern, the morning peak 

11 and the afternoon peak. The blue line is a 

12 straight application, no demand response, no 

13 other change to the application other than 

14 these 20 homes in that same environment, 

15 similar usage patterns are applying heat pump 

16 technology. Again, the energy consumption in 

17 each home throughout all periods of the day is 

18 apparent from the graph. 

19 The purple line that you see 

20 coming in to the slide at this point actually 

21 shows the ability to shift peak. This first 

22 study looked at a two-month period. We took 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 142

1 those 20 units that had the heat pump water 

2 heaters and we applied a shifted load. We 

3 used a low cost, 

4 Wi-Fi approach to be able to do that, getting 

5 again at that grid-enabled approach. But we 

6 drove this and it could have been driven 

7 through any switching technology that's out 

8 there in the world today. We actually see our 

9 products that are coming out of our factories 

10 today applied to the same type switching 

11 programs that all of the utilities in the room 

12 deal with. 

13 This particular program focused on 

14 that period of time that you see highlighted 

15 as the shift that we were trying to 

16 accomplish. It pushes the load over. You do 

17 see a shift in the peak. Same study, same 

18 home, slightly different time period, again, 

19 trying to address pushing the peak and 

20 addressing storage in an off peak or usage in 

21 an off-peak period. But this one happened to 

22 occur during the month of January. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 143

1 This particular slide shows both 

2 the application of heat pump and the ability 

3 to shift. The period that was shifted, you 

4 see highlighted in the circle. This was truly 

5 a demand response push and you can see that 

6 that load peak was driven very much the way 

7 you would expect from any switching program. 

8 And it recovered during the off-peak period. 

9 We've talked about availability to 

10 product, applicability of product. There are 

11 products in the market today. This is an 

12 emerging technology. It is a growing market 

13 segment. So clearly, manufacturers in light 

14 of the final rule are developing new and more 

15 advanced products year over year. We see six 

16 different manufacturers listed on Energy Star. 

17 You can see the number of brands represented. 

18 And many, many different sizes are becoming 

19 available and broadly available commercially 

20 through this technology. 

21 And again, you've heard the 

22 position we see no need for the proposal for a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 144

1 waiver. Again, we think the data supports 

2 application heat pump technology in these 

3 environments and for these purposes. And 

4 that's basically that summary. So thank you 

5 for the opportunity to comment. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to 

7 keep going. We have a few more speakers and 

8 then we're going to take a break. Harvey 

9 Sachs. 

10 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Doug, and 

11 DOE. First of all, I'm Harvey Sachs from 

12 ACEEE. We were early analysts and our analysis 

13 was one of the inputs to the rulemaking that 

14 led to the separation of both gas and electric 

15 units above 55 gallons as being asked to 

16 provide new technologies, condensing gas and 

17 heat pump water heaters, respectively. 

18 I've listened to an awful lot 

19 since that rule came out. Worked with a 

20 number of people in this room and thank all of 

21 them for what they've taught me. A few 

22 conclusions that I've come to that I want to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 145

1 share with you today. First is, the grid 

2 interactive or smart water heater is not the 

3 same thing as a load shifting water heater. 

4 It's a much better product and I believe it 

5 can be done economically through a number of 

6 routes. I'm particularly impressed with what 

7 heat pump manufacturers have accomplished to 

8 date. 

9 The next thing I want to stress is 

10 the energy storage is not just a question of 

11 volume, but also of the storage temperature. 

12 There is more thermal storage between the 135 

13 degree test temperature and 170 degrees than 

14 there is between the 135 test temperature and 

15 the 104 degrees generally taken as the minimum 

16 acceptable supply temperature for hot water. 

17 This is even more true when you 

18 remember that most water heaters are shipped 

19 with their controls set somewhere in the range 

20 of 120 to 125. Therefore, one of the 

21 characteristics that's important to me in any 

22 product that is going to be considered a smart 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 146

1 grid product for thermal storage for benefits 

2 to the utility, as well as the consumer, must 

3 be the ability to store up to something like 

4 170 or 180 degrees, but to contain from the 

5 factory a device, whether you call it an anti6 scald or a tempering valve shipped from the 

7 factory, capable of delivering by mixing water 

8 at temperatures that are acceptable to the 

9 consumer in the 120 to 125 range. 

10 We've had a lot of discussion 

11 today about waivers. And I wanted to digress 

12 just a second to thank our colleagues at DOE. 

13 I believe this may be traceable to Office of 

14 General Counsel, but I don't have to look 

15 inside the Department. In my more than one 

16 decade of following DOE rulemakings, I have 

17 never seen a proposal that so effectively 

18 brought together protagonists on all sides as 

19 the proposal for a one-year waiver. This was 

20 a remarkable accomplishment and I thank you. 

21 There is absolutely no way I can 

22 think of that I can bribe a manufacturer to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 147

1 gear up to manufacture a product for one year. 

2 I've dealt with a lot of utility regulators 

3 and have been one. There is no way that I 

4 could ask a utility or its management in the 

5 case of a co-op to support a one-year program. 

6 You guys need to get out more. 

7 (Laughter.) 

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll send you to 

9 Fargo. 

10 MR. SACHS: I was in Fargo last 

11 year and it's not a bad place. So if there 

12 needs to be a waiver which would have to be 

13 documented through far more analysis than 

14 we've seen so far, we think a three-year 

15 waiver -- I like the concept that NRECA has 

16 advanced of a rolling closeout date, but at 

17 three year would be a good place to start our 

18 thinking. It must have high-temperature 

19 storage which gives you roughly 15 kilowatt 

20 hours storage instead of 7. It must have the 

21 automatic delivery temperature control. 

22 And I can't believe that it's 2013 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 148

1 and we're talking about specifying the 

2 controller. When I grew up Ma Bell had to 

3 come out to the house to add a phone. It was 

4 all hard wired. And somebody sued about fax 

5 machines they wanted to provide. And now 

6 we've got something called an RJ-11 which is a 

7 standard interface that allows you to plug in 

8 anything to the telephone system that meets 

9 certain things to protect the telephone 

10 company. 

11 We really should not be talking 

12 about a standard controller, but products 

13 which are shipped with a standard interface. 

14 As you suggested, this is a $1 to $10 item. 

15 This gives maximum freedom and it's easy to 

16 conceive of such a thing which reports the 

17 status, accepts the signal, reports its 

18 compliance and actually even is smart enough 

19 to defeat attempts to go around it while 

20 allowing a test. This is just protocol 

21 development. 

22 We do feel that any product that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 149

1 is sold to serve the utility needs must have 

2 some form of controls on its distribution to 

3 ensure that it is going into that market and 

4 not serving as a large-scale leak. 

5 On the other hand, we're concerned 

6 about national energy savings which means 

7 we're concerned about substantial compliance 

8 and not some nut in a state not represented 

9 here who figures out a way to defeat that 

10 controller. Okay? 

11 And we do insist that there needs 

12 to be regular evaluation, at least annually of 

13 penetration, energy savings, and economic 

14 value of any such program. We do not support a 

15 separate class for reasons that Mr. Jones has 

16 suggested and beyond that. It's just 

17 something which becomes very hard to remove if 

18 the need is not demonstrated. But we could 

19 support, if need is demonstrated, a controlled 

20 waiver process to support the smart evolution 

21 of the grid to allow us to learn better to 

22 accommodate heat pump water heaters and to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 150

1 protect their market as emerging products to 

2 the extent that is warranted by the economic 

3 and environmental analysis. We've long been 

4 boosters of water heaters. 

5 Thank you. And I hope I didn't 

6 offend you too much. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Our final commenter 

8 this morning is Tim Ballo. And immediately 

9 following Tim's remarks, we'll take a break. 

10 MR. BALLO: If I talk for too 

11 long, everyone is going to really like me. I 

12 just have two quick points to make following 

13 up in part on something Robin said for NRDC. 

14 The DOE's organic statute says that the 

15 Department is allowed to grant waivers to 

16 products consistent with the other purposes of 

17 the relevant act here. The relevant act is 

18 the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. And 

19 of course, there's been no analysis in the 

20 proposed rule that any waivers would, in fact, 

21 be consistent with EPCA. So I think that's 

22 troubling. It's also troubling that the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 151

1 proposed regulations governing the waiver 

2 process don't at all provide analysis of 

3 consistency with EPCA at the time the waiver, 

4 the individual waiver applications are 

5 received. So that's a problem. 

6 The organic statute also provides 

7 that DOE may grant waivers to prevent special 

8 hardship inequity or unfair distribution of 

9 burdens. Who is suffering the hardship here? 

10 Is there, in fact, a hardship? Is there an 

11 unfair distribution of burden? Who is bearing 

12 that burden? Where does the inequity lie? 

13 There's no analysis of these points in the 

14 proposed rule. 

15 And finally, the other issue Robin 

16 mentioned I'd like to amplify, one, is the 

17 lack of an opportunity to comment in the 

18 existing DOE waiver process. There is a 

19 period, a very short period provided for 

20 public input on any waivers received, 

21 especially to the extent that the Department 

22 is not going to perform any analysis in this 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 152

1 proposed rule. It really makes it incumbent 

2 on each individual waiver to demonstrate 

3 consistency with EPCA and an actual hardship 

4 because that has not been demonstrated in the 

5 NOPR. Thanks. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. The 

7 plan, the agenda as written, we are 

8 approximately 25 minutes behind schedule. 

9 That's not too bad, especially given all the 

10 content that we heard this morning already. 

11 But the plan now is that we will try to work 

12 expeditiously and try to end 1'ish and 

13 probably work maybe a little beyond that 

14 before we would ever consider breaking for 

15 lunch, for example. So that's what we are 

16 considering at this point. 

17 It's now 11:25. Let's take a 15-

18 minute break. You must wear one of these 

19 badges visible while you're in the Forrestal 

20 Building. There are restrooms on both ends of 

21 the hall. If you're going for coffee or even 

22 a snack, go quickly. Take the elevators to 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 153

1 the ground floor, hang a left and there's a 

2 coffee shop just about below us on the ground 

3 floor. Okay? So 11:25 means 11:40 is when 

4 we'll resume right here in this room. And 

5 thanks for a very good start on the day. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter went off the record at 11:22 a.m. and 

8 resumed at 11:39 a.m.) 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I especially want 

10 to thank anybody this morning that truncated 

11 their comments. I think a lot of you tried 

12 and I appreciate that. 

13 Now we're going to move to 

14 presentation followed by an opportunity for 

15 comment. I think many of you are new to these 

16 proceedings, so this colorful PowerPoint slide 

17 packet will be the basis for both the 

18 presentation and your opportunity to comment. 

19 So if you would track this stuff, then that 

20 will be helpful. And we're going to start off 

21 with Ashley Armstrong. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, everyone. So 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 154

1 I'm actually going to present from here. 

2 Hopefully, that's okay. I am going to briefly 

3 go through the beginning slides because you 

4 guys have done such a nice job of explaining 

5 ETS programs and heat pump water heaters that 

6 we're just going to skip through those and 

7 hopefully, we'll finish off right around one 

8 and get everyone out of here. 

9 There's some comment boxes once we 

10 go through the details of the proposed waiver 

11 that we'd really like to spur some discussion, 

12 so that's one of the reasons I'm going to sit 

13 here to try to engage in that discussion. 

14 Just to give you some background, 

15 Energy Thermal Storage programs, a lot of the 

16 utility companies, we heard a variety of 

17 different manners to control water heater 

18 operation. The issue came to light when we 

19 adopted the April 2010 amended standards for 

20 water heaters greater than 55 gallons which 

21 essentially require heat pump technology to 

22 meet the efficiency level. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 155

1 So just to tee up the issue, I 

2 think you guys have framed it quite well that 

3 you see the lack of large volume electric 

4 storage water heaters greatly impacting the 

5 future feasibility of your programs. So in 

6 June of 2012, the Department published a 

7 Request For Information, summarizing and 

8 seeking comment on a variety of issues. 

9 We received 127 unique comments. 

10 You can see the breakdown of those comments 

11 from a variety of different interested 

12 parties. Most of the commenters supported 

13 some type of DOE action. Two commenters 

14 opposed. And one took no position on whether 

15 DOE should act. 

16 Moving right along. Okay, so here 

17 are some of the options that DOE considered. 

18 We considered alternatives to what could be 

19 currently used for large volume electric 

20 resistance water heaters and thermal storage 

21 programs. That includes large volume heat 

22 pumps as well as multiple small volume 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 156

1 electric resistance water heaters. And then 

2 we also considered a waiver process. 

3 So ultimately, we decided to 

4 propose a waiver process. We thought that the 

5 waiver process provided maximum flexibility 

6 since it could be reviewed and renewed as 

7 often as possible or as new technologies or 

8 new information became available. The waiver 

9 would be targeted to affect a certain portion 

10 of the market that was really in need. And 

11 obviously the comments on the RFI helped 

12 inform our decision to propose this waiver 

13 process. 

14 So here's a schematic which really 

15 is an overview of our process. First, the 

16 request gets submitted to the Department. It 

17 can be submitted by a manufacturer or utility 

18 or a combination of both. DOE would review 

19 that. If DOE grants the waiver, if the 

20 requirements for the waiver are met, then the 

21 large volume electric resistance water heaters 

22 could be produced by a manufacturer or 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 157

1 imported in that were subject to that waiver. 

2 They must have an energy thermal 

3 control device installed at the point of 

4 manufacture or the point of importation. And 

5 then we verify shipments through the EIA. 

6 I am going to go through the 

7 specific requirements of the waiver and we're 

8 going to open up each one for comment and 

9 discussion. So we encourage you even if 

10 you've made comments at the outset on your 

11 opinions to engage in a discussion to help 

12 inform the Department on its next steps. 

13 So the first is the applicant 

14 requirement. So the Department proposed that 

15 a manufacturer of large volume electric 

16 storage water heaters could apply. A utility 

17 program could apply that was administering a 

18 demand response program. Or a joint 

19 application could come in. 

20 The application required -- hang 

21 on one sec, please. The application required 

22 that the company's contact information, as 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 158

1 well as the utility programs and the 

2 manufacturer, be included as part of the 

3 application. So at this point, I'm going to 

4 turn and open up the floor. I can see we 

5 already have a line where DOE is specifically 

6 seeking comment on the information that we're 

7 going to collect as part of the waiver process 

8 from both the applicant which could include 

9 the manufacturer OEM of the tank as well as 

10 the utility. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

13 Edison Electric Institute. A couple of 

14 thoughts here. Just a -- this is a query for 

15 DOE. With other appliance standards -- 

16 utilities don't manufacture the products and 

17 this is a manufacturing standard. So I'm just 

18 kind of curious if in the past over the past 

19 25 years or so of the program, have there been 

20 situations where non-manufacturer received a 

21 waiver of a manufacturing standard? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 159

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley 

2 from DOE. So off the cuff, not to my 

3 knowledge, but that's just off the cuff. So. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, so in 

5 this rulemaking you would specifically say 

6 that utilities would be eligible to request a 

7 waiver from a manufacturing standard? 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. 

9 That is part of our proposal. That was in our 

10 proposal. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The second 

12 thought I had is that if -- again, there was a 

13 record amount of renewables installed on the 

14 system in 2012, 13,000 megawatts of wind and 

15 3,000 megawatts of solar. And in January, 958 

16 megawatts of wind according to FERC and 267 

17 megawatts of solar. PGM has like 35,000 

18 megawatts of wind in the queue according to 

19 Scott over the next several years. 

20 And if a lot more utilities say 

21 hey, we need to have more of these programs, 

22 literally there are 3,000 electric 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 160

1 distribution companies in the United States. 

2 If at some point doesn't that mean there could 

3 be 3,000 waivers? And is there a way for DOE 

4 to handle that caseload? 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the answer 

6 is yes, if we needed to. I'm guessing we 

7 could. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you go 

10 first? 

11 MR. MORRISON: I'm not sure I 

12 qualify under either of those. 

13 (Laughter.) 

14 But thank you. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Paul? 

16 MR. MORRISON: It's Jay Morrison. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jay, I 

18 apologize. 

19 MR. MORRISON: Just to try and get 

20 clarification, the application requirement, 

21 the company and the contact information of 

22 both the manufacturer and the utility 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 161

1 programs, if the manufacturer applies and 

2 they're a national manufacturer, and there are 

3 1,000 nationwide programs, does the 

4 manufacturer have to put down 1,000 names? 

5 That's question one. 

6 And question two is, as Steve 

7 suggests, another 500 utilities recognized the 

8 beauty of demand responses as the Department 

9 hopes we will, do you have to then -- does the 

10 manufacturer have to then go in and apply for 

11 a new waiver for each utility that might have 

12 a program using the products they have on the 

13 shelf? Or do we just go back and add them so 

14 that everybody knows that yes, these 

15 additional utilities have programs? Are they 

16 not allowed to sell them for utility programs 

17 that aren't on the waiver list? I'm just 

18 trying to understand how this is practicable. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So to answer your 

21 first question, the answer would be yes. The 

22 manufacturer would have to list all the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 162

1 programs that a given basic model was intended 

2 to be used in. 

3 Your second question as to would 

4 you have to apply for a whole new waiver 

5 process, the waiver -- I would say the 

6 proposal -- it doesn't explicitly say -- what 

7 it does say is there has to be a full list. 

8 So if new programs got added, you would at 

9 least have to let the Department know that 

10 your waiver needs modification to add this 

11 program for this model. Obviously, that's out 

12 for comment. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. No. 

14 Frank Stanonik. 

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with 

16 AHRI. First, I'd just want to make clear that 

17 as far as the particular issue here, I don't 

18 think we have at the moment a position, but 

19 there is something -- we're concerned about 

20 the precedent that's being set in this 

21 process. And it just seems to me, I'm very 

22 familiar with efficiency regulations and the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 163

1 efficiency regulations relate to the 

2 manufacturer of products. And efficiency 

3 standards it is the manufacturer's obligation 

4 to meet the efficiency standards. All the 

5 standards are -- when the standard changes you 

6 can't manufacturer a product after that date. 

7 That being the case, I do have a 

8 serious question as to whether a utility 

9 program of any entity that's not a 

10 manufacturer can ask for a waiver from an 

11 efficiency standard because it only applies to 

12 the manufacturer. And so I think if DOE 

13 perceives that that really needs to be 

14 thoroughly researched, I just don't see -- if 

15 I'm not a manufacturer, I don't need a waiver 

16 because it doesn't affect me. 

17 Granted, I understand it affects 

18 these programs, but the way the regulation is 

19 written it addresses the manufacturer of the 

20 product and I think there's a real legal 

21 question that needs to be I'll say iron cladly 

22 resolved because I just don't quite get how 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 164

1 somebody other than a manufacturer can get a 

2 waiver that applies manufacturing a product. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley first and 

4 then to Sam. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, so Frank, I 

6 want to thank you for setting me up so greatly 

7 there. I think that that's exactly one of the 

8 reasons why the Department in its initial 

9 proposal did a flow down from the manufacturer 

10 and its basic model to the utilities and how 

11 they're being used. Because as Frank so 

12 succinctly explained, our regulations are at 

13 the point of manufacturer and when it becomes 

14 a question of did this basic model -- does it 

15 qualify for demand response potential waiver 

16 or is it just noncompliant, we will be asking 

17 questions of a given manufacturer. And there 

18 will need to be some succinct way to 

19 distinguish. 

20 We can get to this further on the 

21 next slide when it comes to controller and 

22 being shipped with it from the point of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 165

1 manufacturer. But really, I asked the 

2 manufacturers in the room as well as others, 

3 and those on the phone, you know, if the 

4 Department were in a situation where we were 

5 asking you to distinguish between a given 

6 model that was sold into a DR program or going 

7 to be used into a DR program and one that 

8 wasn't, and there was no -- as people have 

9 suggested, there was no flow down or there was 

10 no way to track or there was no 

11 differentiation at the point of manufacture, 

12 how would you do that? 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So that is a 

14 specific request. Let's see if we can address 

15 that. Is there anybody that wishes or can 

16 address that at this time? Yes, please say 

17 your name for the record. 

18 MR. WICHER: Allen Wicher, Rheem 

19 Manufacturing Company. 

20 I think to be able to distinguish 

21 is probably not the challenge that we're 

22 seeing in terms of what we're actually 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 166

1 shipping into the program. I think the 

2 challenge would be the 1,000 or whatever 

3 utility applications coming in to the 

4 manufacturer and the timing of all of that and 

5 trying to -- you know, because we're trying to 

6 meet production. We've got business plans. 

7 We have production plans. We've got all those 

8 kinds of things that are continuous. It 

9 really kind of comes down for us, one of our 

10 initial thoughts is just the timing of getting 

11 all that information in and then subsequently 

12 submitting that information in and kind of 

13 being in a holding pattern for whatever amount 

14 of time and getting the approval processes 

15 through. So I think from our standpoint 

16 initially, it's really just the level of 

17 having to take all of that on. There's a lot 

18 of uncertainty built into this thing. I guess 

19 that's kind of where we're at least initially 

20 -- that's kind of where our thought process 

21 is. 

22 I think in terms of controlling, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 167

1 eventually, once we kind of get to that point 

2 and we know what we're going to be supplying, 

3 controlling that is not a difficult situation. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, are you 

5 responding to Ashley's question? No. Any 

6 other responses to that specific query? 

7 Frank. 

8 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

9 AHRI. Just one other thought that somewhat 

10 connects. If the waiver was given to the 

11 manufacturer, and all other conditions were 

12 met, why wouldn't he just be allowed to build 

13 as many as he can build in a year if it's a 

14 year waiver? It will then be his problem to 

15 sell them or not. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Karen Meyers 

17 apparently online wishes to comment. Karen, 

18 speak loudly and clearly. We want to be able 

19 to hear you here in the room. 

20 MS. MEYERS: Okay, everyone. This 

21 is Karen Meyers. I do have a question. So I 

22 just want to make sure I'm reading this 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 168

1 correctly so a waiver could be granted to a 

2 utility and then that utility could just list 

3 the name of the manufacturer on their waiver? 

4 Is that the intent? Then the manufacturer 

5 wouldn't have to get a waiver? 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley 

8 from DOE. That was part of the proposal. 

9 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: We have several 

11 individuals who are in the queue. Sam first, 

12 and then this gentleman here, if you still 

13 wish to comment, and then to Gary. 

14 Sam. 

15 MR. BRUMBERG: Sam Brumberg with 

16 Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware Electric 

17 Cooperatives. I want to just comment on what 

18 AHRI raised. I think you do have almost a 

19 legal issue. If I'm the utility and I'm going 

20 to put my name and my executive signature on 

21 the waiver or its application, but I have no 

22 ability -- what's my responsibility under a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 169

1 granted waiver? I'm not the manufacturer. I 

2 don't have any ability to control the 

3 manufacturer's process. I don't have any 

4 quality control. But arguably, I would have 

5 some amount of liability on the waiver to see 

6 that it was complied with. So I think that's 

7 a question that needs to be examined. 

8 Also, I would submit that we heard 

9 it almost -- I don't want to put words in your 

10 mouth, but I think we almost heard it 

11 indirectly from Rheem. There's a lot of 

12 uncertainty associated with the one-year 

13 waiver process and if I'm sitting in the 

14 manufacturer's seat, why on earth would I put 

15 myself through a process to obtain a waiver 

16 for potentially thousands of individual 

17 utilities needing to apply for this waiver to 

18 get a one-year reprieve from this regulation? 

19 Why would I even participate in the waiver 

20 process and apply for it, given the -- if it's 

21 not going to be something simpler or something 

22 blanket? 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 170

1 And if I'm a small utility, how am 

2 I going to approach G.E. and say could you 

3 please sign on the dotted line here, G.E.? 

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 

6 MR. CONNETT: I'm really too 

7 confused in terms of the waiver. And we work 

8 a lot with Marathon. And just this notion 

9 that am I committing to Marathon that I'm 

10 going to buy 20,000 water heaters or 5,000 

11 water heaters each year? I can't make that 

12 sort of commitment. Probably nor can they. 

13 And we buy others, too. It's not always 

14 Marathon. It may be AO Smith. Can I do it -- 

15 can I do it more than once a year? Is this 

16 waiver option just January 1st? Or can I have 

17 a co-op that comes forward and says I want to 

18 get into this, too, and it's September 1st. 

19 Are you going to be entertaining waivers 

20 throughout the year? 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley 

22 from DOE. I think your questions just give 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 171

1 rise to why the Department initially proposed 

2 a one-year waiver. It's because we thought 

3 that you guys may want maximum flexibility. I 

4 mean we have definitely heard what you've said 

5 here, but it's just that. There's no timing 

6 specific. You can apply at any time. We can 

7 review a waiver at any time. You can modify a 

8 waiver at any time under this proposal. And 

9 we thought you would enjoy the flexibility of 

10 doing that. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay. 

12 MR. STEFFES: Thank you. Going to 

13 what Frank said, if the manufacturers 

14 permitted, once they've gotten a waiver for a 

15 grid-enabled water heater to produce as many 

16 as they think they can sell that year, and 

17 they go through the normal distribution 

18 routes, then if Gary needs 5,000, but he 

19 thought he was going to need 4, then those can 

20 come from Home Depots in Florida, North 

21 Carolina, South Carolina, wherever they need 

22 to get shipped around, Lowe's or Home Depot or 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 172

1 other distribution methods. 

2 If they have to be tied to a 

3 specific manufacturer, a specific product, 

4 specific model number, specific load 

5 controller, then there isn't that flexibility 

6 even on a year to year because the situation 

7 does change year to year. But if we use the 

8 current manufacturing of I'm going to build as 

9 many as I think I'm going to be able to sell, 

10 and the normal distribution methods, then we 

11 have the flexibility that we have today to be 

12 able to get the ones that we need. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? 

14 Additional comments here? This has been 

15 useful. Please. Say your name, please, for 

16 the record. 

17 MR. GLAZER: I am sorry, I'll have 

18 to leave right soon after this, but Craig 

19 Glazer from PJM. Just a follow-up question 

20 because a number of comments as Gary Connett 

21 and others suggested a new classification of 

22 grid-interactive water heaters and sort of two 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 173

1 questions really, one process-wise. If people 

2 propose that, given the state of the docket 

3 and where it's at now, if people propose that 

4 and time is an important factor here, does 

5 that force this whole process to start over 

6 again? Where, if you were to entertain that, 

7 we'd have to sort of start over again, have 

8 another public hearing, another notice. Or is 

9 that still flexibility to pursue that route? 

10 From a process point of view and 

11 substantively if you could enlighten us on the 

12 reasons for your rejection of that -- of the 

13 new classification idea so people don't spill 

14 a lot of ink if there's something we're 

15 missing in your rejection of that approach. 

16 MR. ALTMAN: This Ari Altman from 

17 the GC's Office. Just very briefly, that 

18 would be a deviation from this proposal, so we 

19 would have to do a new document. It would be 

20 a SNOPR. We may or may not do a hearing for 

21 that, but we wouldn't be taking comment on it, 

22 but yes, essentially we'd be starting over 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 174

1 with a new proposal. 

2 MR. GLAZER: And then the 

3 rationale why when you were considering this, 

4 just so we can understand why the new 

5 classification concept if it was specific to 

6 grid interactive was rejected? 

7 MR. ALTMAN: I think -- are you 

8 going to address that? Okay. That was 

9 addressed in the notice and essentially there 

10 were concerns that that would raise a 

11 backsliding issue which has been mentioned 

12 here before. And so the waiver proposal we 

13 thought was the most practical and most likely 

14 to be able to get through the process. 

15 MR. GLAZER: So what I'm hearing, 

16 just to summarize, from a time perspective in 

17 keeping this thing moving we're in this waiver 

18 world is what we're dealing with at this point 

19 and then how to make it best work for 

20 everyone. But what I'm hearing is should 

21 people argue for a new classification, we'd be 

22 almost starting all over again. Is that fair? 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 175

1 MR. ALTMAN: Yes, this is Ari 

2 again from GC. Yes, we've be starting over. I 

3 think probably what you're most concerned 

4 about is the 2015 date that the 2010 rule 

5 would become effective. Yes, essentially we 

6 would begin to back into that if we needed to 

7 do another rule, but there's no -- it's not 

8 definite that if we did an SNOPR that it would 

9 suddenly mean that any final rule would come 

10 after that date. But certainly that is a 

11 consideration for everyone here. 

12 MR. GLAZER: Thank you. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 

14 MR. CONNETT: Gary Connett from 

15 Great River. Listening to this and having 

16 been a party to it for a couple of years now, 

17 I just had this crazy notion that we're 

18 working on something with an old rulebook at 

19 the DOE. And it's this notion around energy 

20 factor. And it's almost as though we're 

21 creating a smart grid, a grid-enabled 

22 appliance that the DOE hasn't had a whole lot 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 176

1 to -- rules around it. And just this notion 

2 that if you just focus on nothing but energy 

3 factor, it's just a plain old water heater. 

4 But if you start to think about this notion 

5 that it has the ability to do frequency 

6 response and this ability to store wind energy 

7 and all these other sort of things, it becomes 

8 something different. 

9 And it's this notion that you're 

10 trying to make the rules with the old 

11 rulebook. And I had this notion that maybe if 

12 we get a waiver, is it possible for the DOE to 

13 start thinking about all these smart grid 

14 technologies that are going to come that are 

15 going to make the grid more efficient and that 

16 maybe there will be a different sort of 

17 rulebook for these sort of things? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 MR. CONNETT: I'm interested in a 

20 comment, maybe, because I'm just struggling 

21 with I think we're putting this into a box, an 

22 energy factor box that's been around for quite 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 177

1 a few years and I think smart grid is here. 

2 I think Harvey wants to answer. 

3 (Laughter) 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Harvey, feel free. 

6 MR. SACHS: I would never speak 

7 for my colleagues at DOE, much less General 

8 Counsel, but there are some aspects of the law 

9 that do focus on energy savings as being the 

10 core parameter. One of the reasons that we're 

11 here from the energy efficiency community is 

12 recognition of the potential for other values 

13 and the need to walk a balance between 

14 encouraging energy and carbon oxide savings 

15 for the whole nation and the attributes of a 

16 single product. 

17 And it's a rough thing and it's a 

18 rough thing to fit in the organic law I think 

19 was the term that Tim used. And this looks 

20 like a way to do the experiment to demonstrate 

21 whether or not we can get value and whether or 

22 not we can get value within the existing legal 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 178

1 framework. So we're joining with you in 

2 trying to stretch my understanding of the law 

3 and this is why we feel that the conditional 

4 aspects of a waiver are the appropriate way to 

5 begin that. 

6 It's a quarter century that we've 

7 dealt with the same rating method. We're 

8 finally getting around in three different 

9 caucuses to try and look at how we rate water 

10 heaters just in terms of whether or not 

11 they're saving more energy or less. So the 

12 hippopotamus awakes slowly. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: You have a comment 

14 here. Your name, please? 

15 MR. BRYANT: Markus Bryant from 

16 Ohio. Listening to the comments, I thought it 

17 might be useful to share with you our 

18 perspective of how we analyze and put together 

19 load management programs and try to integrate 

20 various types of equipment. 

21 The gentleman over here had a 

22 comment about manufacturers in terms of 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 179

1 specifications and frankly, when we go out to 

2 the marketplace, we as cooperatives are 

3 interested in value for our consumers. So we 

4 favor the most efficient appliances possible. 

5 That's what we promote. 

6 So even though we have large water 

7 heaters as part of our program, we require 

8 energy efficiency factors of 90 percent or 

9 better. We also promote geothermal technology 

10 and use large water heaters in connection with 

11 that. We have 8.5 percent of our residential 

12 homes have geothermal systems with water 

13 storage. 

14 The issue arises is that you have 

15 the manufactured equipment the most efficient 

16 as possible on the market. But then you also 

17 have a different level of efficiency as we 

18 look at it from the utility standpoint. And 

19 that is, in terms of maximizing our generation 

20 resources at the -- operated at the lowest 

21 possible cost for the consumer. Now we have 

22 another thing coming into the equation which 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 180

1 is the whole role of renewables and smart grid 

2 technology which we were talking about. And 

3 water heaters, frankly, are a unique storage 

4 battery for that. 

5 So what we need going forward is 

6 not so much from our standpoint a rule, we 

7 need a flexible framework for moving this 

8 process forward. And if we get a five year or 

9 more waiver, if you will, it could lead to an 

10 analysis that says yes, we need to have a 

11 separate category and I think in my view most 

12 likely the data will probably show that. If 

13 we look at it from a utility resources, energy 

14 resources, and combined efficiency of the 

15 system as opposed to just focusing solely on 

16 the manufactured product which in our view is 

17 only one piece of the equation. It's an 

18 important piece, but it has to be all tied 

19 together. 

20 And so this idea that maybe we're 

21 dealing with an old rulebook that has some 

22 merit, but we're not at a point we can throw 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 181

1 that out. We have to have a process to move 

2 forward. And so a waiver is a transitional 

3 method to get there and may result in a 

4 separate notice in the future. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Linda, 

6 is it and then to Alex and then to Earl. 

7 MS. KING: Linda King, 

8 Northwestern REC. We preach to our members on 

9 a daily basis efficiency using energy the 

10 smart choice. To us, the most efficient 

11 kilowatt hour is the one we never have to 

12 produce. So in that regard, we very much 

13 support the use of heat pump technology even 

14 in our demand program. However, I would take 

15 issue with many of the points or assumptions 

16 that were given by the manufacturer in that we 

17 have not found some of those things to be true 

18 in our pilot, in our territory, particularly 

19 the temperature change in the household where 

20 the heat pump water heater resides. The 

21 ability -- it is not a one-for-one solution. 

22 And that's what we need, a balanced approach, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 182

1 not totally removing the resistance water 

2 heater load management technology. 

3 I'll give you an example. We had 

4 planned to embrace smart grid appliances into 

5 our load management program. Not just the 

6 water heater, but any appliance. Now the 

7 manufacturers have changed plans to produce 

8 those appliances. What assurances do we have 

9 if we totally disregard the use of electric 

10 resistance water heaters in our load 

11 management program, embrace heat pump water 

12 heater technology 100 percent or force it on 

13 situations where it doesn't work, the 

14 homeowners hate it and don't participate at 

15 all, therefore increase their cost and they 

16 don't sell enough so they discontinue the 

17 product. Then what do we do? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

19 MR. HOFMAN: I'm really happy that 

20 we're having this discussion and actually just 

21 to echo what Harvey was saying and the 

22 gentleman up at the mic, I think flexibility 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 183

1 is a really key thing here. And the facts are 

2 that savings to utilities, especially 

3 nonprofit utilities, utilities are not 

4 operating for a profit margin at all. It's 

5 electricity not used. It's energy not used. 

6 It's more efficient use of the system. 

7 I think the right thing here is 

8 that we're trying to take a look at certain 

9 select cases where there is a lot left on the 

10 table. And we're advocating really to 

11 maximize system efficiency, so balancing the 

12 benefits of heat pump water heaters with their 

13 inadequacies in certain cases. And maybe the 

14 gentleman from General Electric could comment 

15 on this, but a lot of what I hear here and 

16 we're using this analogy of a battery, but 

17 perhaps you could talk to the real and 

18 reactive power elements of your differing 

19 technologies and how those differences might 

20 actually result in different system balance 

21 approaches or different system efficiencies. 

22 What I think I'd like to hear is 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 184

1 really the sort of avoiding this issue of 

2 backsliding. We're not advocating for 

3 backsliding in any way. We're just trying to 

4 find a way to make something that really does 

5 truly save consumers and in fact, I think 

6 we're heard at least hundreds of millions of 

7 dollars of savings have been mentioned, 

8 several generators avoided have been 

9 mentioned. And taking advantage of those and 

10 trying to find a way into the future to take 

11 advantage of those is something that's really 

12 important to us. So perhaps if anyone can 

13 comment on the type of system efficiency 

14 balancing techniques that we might be giving 

15 up here, that would be really interesting to 

16 me. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Earl Jones. 

18 MR. JONES: I'm not sure that I 

19 understand that there are any systems savings 

20 that are being lost here. I mean if we wanted 

21 to get into -- or DOE rather wanted to get 

22 into the issue which by the way has been 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 185

1 suggested not -- I mean this is the first time 

2 I've heard it mentioned for this product, but 

3 it's been mentioned in the past for many other 

4 appliances, urging DOE to focus on the total 

5 system, the whole home, for example, as 

6 opposed to the individual unit. And DOE has 

7 resisted doing that. And whether that grows 

8 out of the requirements of the law, as they 

9 see it, and I think it might be that, or 

10 whether it grows out of just we know what we 

11 do because we do what we have always done. I 

12 don't know. I'm sure they could address that. 

13 But I guess my real concern is I 

14 hear all these questions and I'm not sure I 

15 understand why any of them, quite frankly, are 

16 relevant for this particular product because 

17 they're all predicated upon the assumption 

18 that you must do this with the 120 or larger 

19 resistance water heaters. We don't believe 

20 that's true. And we don't believe that the 

21 data exists no matter what the contentions 

22 have been at this meeting today, that it 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 186

1 cannot be done with other technologies. 

2 I did want to get back to the 

3 question though of the utility and the 

4 manufacturer and I think it's really critical 

5 that indeed those two be allied in these 

6 applications and I say that as a manufacturer 

7 of products that do comply. We're very 

8 concerned about products that don't comply 

9 somehow getting into commerce and to the 

10 extent that this process is literally -- can 

11 be easily done, then I think we're 

12 increasingly vulnerable to that happening. 

13 And I think therefore that to the extent that 

14 you must do this, which we hope you don't, but 

15 if you must do this, then you make it 

16 literally as intricate as you have designed it 

17 to be, that the utility and the manufacturer 

18 be in lock step and we have an assurance that 

19 the products that are being targeted for the 

20 requested ETS program wind up there and no 

21 other place. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, your name? 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 187

1 MR. SPRINGER: Jeff Springer with 

2 Dairyland Power in La Crosse, Wisconsin. I'd 

3 just like to respond on G.E.'s contention that 

4 the heat pump water heater can do everything 

5 we're asking for with these large storage 

6 water heaters. Interestingly enough, we have 

7 an old G.E. load control system that does our 

8 load control on the water heaters that we do 

9 have out there. But these large water heaters 

10 that we have, you showed some peaks where you 

11 could sort of effectively shift over a little 

12 bit. We want to empty those peaks. 

13 When we use these large water 

14 heaters, we drop to zero and we stay at zero 

15 during those two peaks and then we fill the 

16 valleys by turning them on during the other 

17 times. That's something you can't effectively 

18 do with a heat pump water heater because it 

19 needs a certain amount of run time because it 

20 can't make hot water at the speed that a 4500 

21 watt element can make. So that's one of the 

22 challenges there. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 188

1 MR. BROOKMAN: You first, go 

2 ahead. 

3 MR. J. BAKER: I'd just like to 

4 echo what I've heard from several of my 

5 counterparts. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: What's your name? 

7 MR. J. BAKER: Jimmy Baker with 

8 Palmetto Electric Cooperative. First of all, 

9 let me say that heat pump water heaters are an 

10 integral part of our demand-side program. We 

11 promote heat pump water heaters and 

12 applications where they work, where they make 

13 sense, but it's not a one-for-one tradeoff. 

14 There are issues of space requirements for a 

15 heat pump water heater that a standard large 

16 capacity storage water heater does not have. 

17 There is the issue of condensate 

18 draining. There is an issue and I know that's 

19 not what we're specifically here to discuss 

20 today, but there is an expense to many of our 

21 members who simply cannot afford that 

22 technology. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 189

1 The other thing I think worth 

2 emphasizing and it was in my remarks is that 

3 we have documented research that shows that 

4 the large capacity electric resistance water 

5 heaters use negligibly more than a smaller 

6 capacity water heater and in some cases they 

7 use less. That's documented in the University 

8 of South Carolina study. And we'd be glad if 

9 we could introduce that and have that part of 

10 the record of this meeting. But we are for 

11 heat pump technology. We hope that heat pump 

12 technology and other technology will continue 

13 to advance and have more and more application, 

14 but we're simply not there today. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm hoping that we 

16 can continue to remain germane. Tom? 

17 MR. ZIMMER: Just briefly. Tom 

18 Zimmer, General Electric. And again, to the 

19 point made. As you look at the ETS programs 

20 and requirements for thermal storage, absolute 

21 valid point made by the earlier comment in 

22 terms of time required when using a heat pump 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 190

1 to recover that energy. 

2 However, keep in mind the heat 

3 pump technologies that are being delivered and 

4 taken to market today don't rely on a single 

5 source for energy use for a number of reasons, 

6 one of which is consumer convenience. This 

7 would be a similar application. 

8 If, in fact, the peak shift and 

9 the time for recovery becomes short, the 

10 capability to absorb that energy and store 

11 that energy over that time period exists. 

12 It's a question of what's the requirement. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead. 

14 MR. S. BAKER: Scott Baker, PJM, a 

15 follow on to that. If you could explain for 

16 us, does that mean using the electric 

17 resistive element that's in the heat pump and 

18 doesn't that effectively lower the energy 

19 factor of the unit? 

20 MR. ZIMMER: Tom Zimmer. Yes, it 

21 does refer to use of the electric element, but 

22 that would be on an as-need basis per utility 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 191

1 requirement, not to achieve an overall savings 

2 throughout the course of every hour of every 

3 day. This would be a unique application 

4 specifically responding to that ETS need. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 

6 MR. S. BAKER: One more follow up. 

7 Do you have data on if you were to use the 

8 heat pump water heater and the electric 

9 resistive element daily in a load shifting 

10 program, what that energy factor would be? 

11 MR. ZIMMER: We do not have a 

12 complete set of data as I sit here today to be 

13 very direct about it. However, we are 

14 actively engaged in programs that are 

15 generating that data for that exact purpose. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Time frame on 

17 delivering that data? Or having access to 

18 that data? 

19 MR. ZIMMER: I'm going to defer 

20 that question for a moment, but we are 

21 actively engaged in that program today and the 

22 first data sets should be available, I would 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 192

1 expect, inside of the next six months. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Yes, 

3 please. I want to make sure we keep plugging 

4 ahead here. You're first and then I'm going 

5 to Gary. 

6 MR. BRYANT: Markus Bryant. You 

7 mentioned this electric resistance element can 

8 get you over the short-term problems with the 

9 heat pump water heaters. We have -- my 

10 understanding is we have spoken to both Rheem 

11 and G.E. local distributors that there is no 

12 effective way for us as a utility to control 

13 that element because we cannot get through 

14 your control devices. We've been told by your 

15 company that at some point that would be 

16 available. It's been over two years now. So 

17 if you're going to argue that point, you're 

18 going to have to have a product that delivers. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Tom 

20 follow on. Go ahead. 

21 MR. ZIMMER: Again, keeping in 

22 mind that what we're talking about is a waiver 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 193

1 process for a 2015 regulation and that as a 

2 manufacturer we've actively engaged in 

3 development. I'm not arguing the point that 

4 that technology exists at this moment today in 

5 the commercial market as needed to meet these 

6 specific needs. My argument is that the work 

7 to accomplish that in the time frame available 

8 is under way. 

9 MR. BRYANT: Well, the only answer 

10 I have for that is we are trying to promote 

11 where it fits the heat pump water heater 

12 technology. The problem we're having is 

13 integrated into our load management system. 

14 And so I think we're a little frustrated that 

15 manufacturers are not responding to our needs 

16 on that end. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, and then Jay. 

18 MR. CONNETT: Well, to Jeff 

19 Springer's point, Dairyland Energy and Great 

20 River Energy run a similar program and it's 

21 just this notion that we charge the water 

22 heaters for eight hours a night and then they 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 194

1 don't get any energy for the next 16 hours. 

2 That the way that the heat pump manufacturers 

3 have described their product it's slow and 

4 steady. It's not a big heat pump, but it will 

5 heat hot water -- it will heat water. Just 

6 give it slow and steady. So this notion of 

7 having a heat pump water heater and then 

8 having it be a resistive water heater in the 

9 eight hours of night time it's far too 

10 expensive to do that. It's back to this 

11 notion why don't we just use an electric water 

12 heater if that's what we're going to do. Our 

13 strategy is to use off-peak energy and do it 

14 at a time when it's a lot of renewable energy 

15 into that peak period. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Tom 

17 follow on. 

18 MR. ZIMMER: Again, keep in mind 

19 that although heat pump recovery once the tank 

20 is stored at a fixed temperature, it's that 

21 capacity of hot water, independent of the 

22 source of energy used to get to that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 195

1 temperature and that storage capacity. 

2 Although the heat pump does take longer than 

3 resistive elements, I have seen no data that 

4 says any heat pump that I've tested requires 

5 over an eight-hour period to recover to the 

6 set point temperature. So it can be 

7 effectively used inside of an eight-hour 

8 period with no data supporting an argument 

9 that would say it can't be done from our data. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jay. 

11 MR. MORRISON: I want to respond 

12 both to what I've heard from G.E., but do it 

13 in the context of the yellow box. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

15 MR. MORRISON: You're welcome. 

16 (Laughter.) 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's try to stay 

18 on that course. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 Jay, please, go ahead. 

21 MR. MORRISON: The goal for the 

22 co-ops, as I've heard it from my members and 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 196

1 they'll correct me if I'm wrong, they're not 

2 bashful is to make sure that the product they 

3 need for their program is available when they 

4 need it, that the customers can find the 

5 product on the shelf, whatever shelf they 

6 happen to go to as a customer to get what they 

7 need. And a product that they're happy with 

8 so that they'll stay in the program and that 

9 they won't go buy a different product that 

10 doesn't work for the program because they just 

11 don't like what's on the shelf. 

12 G.E. made the point in their 

13 opening statement, Mr. Jones, that he had 

14 heard people express concerns about the cost 

15 of the heat pump product, about the space 

16 required for the heat pump product and -- I 

17 apologize, there was one other -- oh, the 

18 noise of the heat pump product. But assured 

19 us that our market power would be sufficient 

20 to convince the manufacturers to produce a 

21 product that was quiet enough, small enough, 

22 and otherwise able to meet our requirements. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 197

1 We also heard that even though 

2 it's only two years out, by 2015, we're 

3 assured that yes, you will be allowed to 

4 control the G.E. water heater even if you 

5 weren't today. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the 

6 product that's available from one manufacturer 

7 through June isn't as good as the product that 

8 might be available from another manufacturer 

9 August through November and maybe there's yet 

10 a new really great product that comes out in 

11 December. We want our members to have access 

12 to the best possible product from Day 1 in 

13 2015 and each year thereafter, so that they 

14 want to be in the program, so that they 

15 participate in the program. 

16 If you have to identify the 

17 specific manufacturer, the specific utility 

18 that's going to use the product, which exact 

19 product, that flexibility goes away. That 

20 means the ability to get the right product to 

21 the consumer who is willing to buy it so 

22 they'll participate in the program so that we 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 198

1 can get the benefit of the demand response 

2 isn't there. 

3 So I go back again to what AHRI 

4 said which is just let the manufacturers 

5 produce as much as they think they can sell of 

6 compliant products that meet the requirements 

7 of the waiver so long as those requirements 

8 are simple enough that we all understand them, 

9 the manufacturers do, and the utilities. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we ready to 

11 move on? Final comment and we're moving on. 

12 MR. PRATT: I was going to say 

13 that I think that my experience in Georgia is 

14 that the utilities have been interested in 

15 grid enabled heat pump water heater technology 

16 from the onset, but we're approaching a 2015 

17 deadline very quickly and it's kind of piggy18 backing what Jay said. As of yet, we are 

19 seeing a deadline coming up with no products 

20 to help meet it in this avenue. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Earl -- 

22 MR. JONES: Very quickly. There 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 199

1 are grid enabled products. The ones that 

2 we've been described at G.E. are grid enabled. 

3 I think we have to make the distinction here 

4 between products that are grid enabled and 

5 products which are enabled to respond only to 

6 the signal that comes from utility X versus Y 

7 versus Z. That's an issue. But the fact is 

8 this product is able to respond to any of 

9 those, but it probably most effectively 

10 responds to controls Wi-Fi, internet. 

11 So I mean we're talking about I 

12 think a product that's sort of more 

13 contemporary and I think has got more 

14 capability going forward than maybe some of 

15 the ones that exist today that are kind of 

16 locked up with particular utilities. I think 

17 that's a model which is probably not 

18 sustainable quite frankly. And I think that 

19 one thing that needs to be considered by the 

20 managers of these programs is moving to units 

21 that have the capability to communicate much 

22 more broadly, whether it's some kind of a plug 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 200

1 in that Mr. Sachs mentioned or whether it's 

2 over the internet, but these kind of captured 

3 programs or products are not going to go 

4 forward. 

5 MS. KING: Linda King from 

6 Northwestern REC. We have looked at the 

7 manufacturer feedback. We have looked at the 

8 Wi-Fi option, the G.E. Nucleus in particular, 

9 and our problem with attempting to use that 

10 type of device is about 40 percent of our 

11 members do not have high-speed internet. 

12 Twenty-five percent don't have any internet at 

13 all. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock, 

15 briefly. Then we're moving on by the way. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

17 I represent members that are regulated by 

18 state public utility commissions or state 

19 corporate commissions, etcetera, and there are 

20 certain states that have specific prohibitions 

21 against regulated utilities doing anything 

22 that's quote seen as quote promoting electric 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 201

1 products. So again, for some of my members, 

2 they'd have to really check with the 

3 regulators first before even asking this 

4 because they don't want to do anything that 

5 would even be seen as violating a state 

6 regulation in this regard. Thank you. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Ashley. 

8 We're proceeding. We're now on Slide 22. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jay gave a pretty 

10 good segue to this one. So we've heard a lot 

11 of discussion about DOE's regulations being a 

12 manufacturing standard and that we need to be 

13 able to do -- well, the manufacturers need to 

14 be able to distinguish between those units 

15 that may get used ultimately in a DR program 

16 versus those units that when the standard -- 

17 compliance with the standards required would 

18 just be noncompliant. So that leads us into 

19 the controller requirements in the proposed 

20 waiver. 

21 So our going-in proposal was that 

22 the controller be integrated and shipped with 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 202

1 the actual water heater itself from the point 

2 of manufacture. And I think our initial 

3 position was that at least that way there 

4 would be some assurance, along with the 

5 labeling and the marketing that we've included 

6 that this unit is differentiated at the point 

7 of manufacture to be used in a DR program. 

8 That way if questions arose later and we asked 

9 a given manufacturer is this unit part of a DR 

10 program and subject to a given waiver or is it 

11 not, there would be a clear way to tell by 

12 certain product characteristics. 

13 So with that, I'm going to open 

14 the floor because we've heard a variety of 

15 different proposals today or a variety of the 

16 options for the Department to consider and 

17 point of differentiation, I guess, at the 

18 point of manufacture is pretty important. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ashley, and 

21 your proposal corresponds with what I was 

22 thinking quite a while ago and I've learned a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 203

1 lot since then and I think it's obsolete and 

2 wrong in several respects. I can still be 

3 wrong, but I think I'm less wrong. 

4 The first response to your first 

5 bullet, it must be capable of two-way 

6 communications. Unless it can tell the grid 

7 that it is cooperating or it is opted out, we 

8 have no way of evaluating the actual energy 

9 savings. And this is just as feasible as 

10 doing one-way communications. 

11 The second thing is if there's any 

12 message that I've received loudly and clearly 

13 today is that integrating the controller 

14 despite my first thoughts and yours is just 

15 not the approach. It's 2013. We need to talk 

16 about the requirements for the interface, not 

17 for the controller. It must be shipped with 

18 an interface which might look like a telephone 

19 plug. It might look like a USB. It might be 

20 Wi-Fi. But it allows the homeowner on behalf 

21 of the utility to attach a controller with it 

22 difficult to determine that the water heater 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 204

1 is running without that controller in place. 

2 So we avoid the labor cost of utility making a 

3 run, but we still get the assurances that this 

4 thing is being used. So that piece of it is 

5 about the interface. 

6 The third point I want to make as 

7 I've been thinking about the comments here is 

8 that it's not about the gallons. It's about 

9 the kBtu or kilowatt hours of storage 

10 available that this can be done equivalently 

11 by boosting temperature which unless we're in 

12 carbon dioxide will mean running resistive 

13 elements and we probably don't want fast 

14 response on the compressor by itself. But it 

15 means thinking about the waiver regulation in 

16 terms of the head room and the kBtu of 

17 available grid regulation and storage services 

18 available. I can get the same thing with a 

19 50-gallon water heater running to 170 as I can 

20 with a 100-gallon water heater that's running 

21 to 135. 

22 The final comment I want to make 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 205

1 at this point is the full description of the 

2 control device is to me where the line goes 

3 between the utility and the manufacturer of 

4 the water heater. Just as we talk about 

5 things on the customer side of the revenue 

6 meter, the description of the control device 

7 and I don't know how we reach that with the 

8 law, must be the responsibility of the 

9 utility. The capabilities of the controller 

10 in its interaction with the water heater are 

11 jointly the responsibility of the protocol 

12 definition, protocol including the physical 

13 layer of what that interconnection actually 

14 looks like. 

15 With that, I'll end my rant. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. Did I miss 

17 Jay? I believe you were first. Thank you. 

18 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. I 

19 appreciate Harvey's comments. And I 

20 appreciate his focus on looking at the 

21 interface rather than the controller. And I 

22 do know that this is where the industry is 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 206

1 headed, but I also know that the process of 

2 developing common interfaces, common 

3 interoperability standards, common 

4 communication standards is a slow process. 

5 I am not confident that by 2015 

6 that such a standard will even have been 

7 adopted, much less products available for sale 

8 in the industry. Going back to the comment I 

9 made before, the goal is to have products that 

10 our consumers can buy on the shelf in 2015 

11 that we can use in our on-going programs given 

12 our legacy control devices. And while we may 

13 want to head in the direction that Harvey is 

14 suggesting and I know we're spending a lot of 

15 time in these inter-operability efforts, I'm 

16 just not confident we can get there on the 

17 schedule that this waiver approach is looking 

18 to achieve. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky. 

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Something just 

21 occurred to me from Harvey's rant. So we all 

22 go buy cell phones these days, right, and now 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 207

1 there's ignition locks on cars and things. 

2 What if this device instead of connecting to 

3 the grid is shipped with something that needs 

4 to be unlocked to become operable and the only 

5 way it can get unlocked is if the utility has 

6 the code to unlock it and such -- and then 

7 they can install whatever they want in terms 

8 of the two-way communication. Just a thought. 

9 I don't make water heaters. I don't know if 

10 that's possible. Does that make things 

11 easier? 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs, you 

13 were going to follow on previously on Jay's 

14 comment anyway. 

15 MR. SACHS: Jay, you raised two 

16 separate issues. One of them is transition. 

17 The legacy stuff is controlled now, you think. 

18 What we're talking about is how to build the 

19 environment post-January 1st or is it April -- 

20 2015. And for that, we're proposing a very, 

21 very flexible software based interface for 

22 that which goes forward from that and is a no 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 208

1 brainer for connecting to anybody's control 

2 system. That's the first thing. 

3 The second thing is I believe with 

4 all due respect if we can keep the lawyers out 

5 of the room the software development on this 

6 interface is not a big problem. And I've 

7 played with it. I'm not an expert at it. 

8 It's a long time ago. But, that's not a hard 

9 technical problem. 

10 And the third thing, I just want 

11 to close with is I find myself relatively 

12 uninterested in going forward with products 

13 for your members' thin distribution networks 

14 which have real grid control problems I'm 

15 told, that don't offer the potential and 

16 capability for doing the fast regulation 

17 services that have as much economic value, Mr. 

18 Wellinghoff tells us, as the energy by itself. 

19 So to me, going forward, this 

20 capability of having a true grid interactive 

21 water heater is a go-no go. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay, keep going. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 209

1 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. A bunch 

2 of things packed into what Harvey said. Let 

3 me work my way backwards and I may need a 

4 reminder on number one. 

5 Number three item was not 

6 interested in dealing with our problem without 

7 fast regulation. Well, the challenge that a 

8 lot of our members have is communications 

9 infrastructure which is not something that may 

10 cooperatives are in a position to build to 

11 make up for the fact that there is no high 

12 speed communication infrastructure available. 

13 I'll note that I live only 55 miles out of 

14 Washington, D.C. and my fastest connection is 

15 twisted pair. There is no cellular 

16 connection. There is no high-speed 

17 interconnection. I've got to use satellite 

18 for any internet. So to assume that we can 

19 have -- that we must have two way, high speed 

20 connection in order to be able to have a 

21 demand response program is not consistent with 

22 rural infrastructure. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 210

1 MR. SACHS: Please let me respond 

2 to that. The bit rate required for this kind 

3 of control is a little bit faster than smoke 

4 signals. But it's measured in tens of bits 

5 per minute. It's not high-speed issue. 

6 MR. MORRISON: There is a reason 

7 that a large number of cooperatives are using 

8 PLC for controllers outside the home that 

9 don't connect directly to the devices because 

10 that's what's available to them. 

11 MR. SACHS: Jay, I'm not real good 

12 at technology, but I can plug the PLC in at 

13 one end to the wall and at the other end it 

14 can communicate with the water heater. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move to the 

16 next point. 

17 MR. SACHS: Let's stay away from 

18 the technology because I'm a little less 

19 ignorant than you are, not much. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move to the 

21 next point. 

22 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. The 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 211

1 middle point was about keeping lawyers out of 

2 the room. And I think, in fact, for the large 

3 part the lawyers do stay out of the room. 

4 Here, the problem is the business people, each 

5 of whom has a proprietary product that they 

6 want to become the common standard. 

7 MR. SACHS: Point well taken. 

8 MR. MORRISON: Remind me what your 

9 first point was, Harvey, because I know I 

10 wanted to respond to it. 

11 MR. SACHS: When you're my age -- 

12 MR. MORRISON: I feel it some 

13 days. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I have this queue 

15 as approximately Sam and then Alex and then 

16 Frank. Briefly. Go ahead. 

17 MR. BRUMBERG: Sam Brumberg, 

18 Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware Cooperatives. 

19 Speaking as a lawyer, I would be happy to 

20 leave the room at any time that you all are 

21 ready for that. 

22 (Laughter.) 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 212

1 I would just -- a few brief 

2 reactions. The notion of a locking mechanism 

3 I think is interesting, but I would want to 

4 hear a lot more about that, especially from a 

5 consumer point of view. If I'm the consumer 

6 taking that into my home, I don't know that I 

7 -- I may or may not want the utility locking 

8 something or not locking something. 

9 I want to reiterate points that 

10 Jay -- a point that Jay has made and one that 

11 Northwestern, I'm sorry I don't remember your 

12 name, we do have the diversity control devices 

13 so I think I would skew towards the interfaces 

14 as opposed to the integrated control. And 

15 really, we still do even in cooperatives that 

16 are in suburban or relatively urbanized areas 

17 still have communication infrastructure 

18 problems. 

19 Folks at the end of the line do 

20 not have broadband and some of them do not 

21 want Wi-Fi or broadband type applications to 

22 be used without their express consent. So 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 213

1 there's a consumer relations issue to be 

2 addressed there also. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

4 MR. HOFMAN: Real quick, just to 

5 John, this unlock to be become operable idea. 

6 Would that, in effect, render the waiver moot 

7 and also are you talking about a one time 

8 unlock which I suppose sounds like it's -- 

9 maybe would have legal aspects to it? 

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll say no for 

11 the first question. Again, I just thought of 

12 it as we were talking. It seems to me and 

13 this addresses what Sam just brought up that 

14 the idea here and Jay and others have brought 

15 up that if this thing ever appears on the 

16 shelf of Home Depot for a consumer to just 

17 pick up, the Department in no way wants that 

18 to end up in a house that's not part of a 

19 demand response program. And so if only the 

20 utility can unlock that unit for use in the 

21 home, it seems to me and I haven't thought 

22 about it too much, but it seems to me our 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 214

1 objective may have been met. 

2 I'm not saying -- we don't need a 

3 plumber to come in to key in the code, but in 

4 fact, if only -- yes, and this really goes to 

5 Rheem and G.E. It seems to me these 

6 technologies might not be that expensive to 

7 shut the resister off unless this code -- I 

8 know my car, if I replace the battery I can't 

9 get the stereo to work again unless I type in 

10 five numbers that are in my handbook that came 

11 with the car. Obviously, we don't want this 

12 to be shipped with the unit, only the utility. 

13 So this gets to the utility-manufacturer 

14 link, may be an easier way. I don't know. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Frank, you're next. 

16 And then Steve, you're next. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

18 AHRI. Just a couple of comments. First of 

19 all, if this discussion about requiring the 

20 manufacturer to provide whether it's an 

21 interface or control device or whatever, I 

22 can't help but just comment, you're creating a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 215

1 water heater that is a unique utility. Okay? 

2 For whatever that's worth. 

3 But I think the other part is that 

4 okay, if this goes forward and if there's a 

5 waiver process where the manufacturer has to 

6 apply and he has to identify all his potential 

7 utility partners and as has been mentioned 

8 here, you're going to require a label that 

9 identifies in some way this water heater 

10 intended for thermal storage programs, 

11 whatever, I think that's enough. The idea 

12 that you're going to require a device and in 

13 fact is useless because we've just heard 

14 plenty of testimony that everybody has their 

15 own process for controlling these products is 

16 just creating a point of contention that's 

17 totally unnecessary. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

20 Edison Electric Institute. The locking idea I 

21 think is interesting, but there's always 

22 issues because where new homeowners or new 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 216

1 house they're trying to set up, there might be 

2 a little bit of a lag time. What if the 

3 builder puts it in? And then the homeowner 

4 has to decide to join the program. The 

5 homeowner decides to join the program, well, 

6 it can take several days or possibly weeks to 

7 get the device, so that homeowner might be out 

8 of hot water for several days. 

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think you made 

10 our point for us. I don't want to interrupt, 

11 but that's exactly -- we don't want that, 

12 right? So you're saying a builder put this in 

13 the house without even knowing if there's 

14 going to be a demand response program. So you 

15 made our case perfectly. Thank you, Steve. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I didn't mean to. 

17 My point was there could be situations in 

18 terms of if the unlock devices are required 

19 and there's a several day lag time that 

20 homeowner is left without hot water for those 

21 days and they could just -- I don't know. 

22 They take a lot of cold showers, too. I 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 217

1 guess. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Laura, do you want 

3 to comment here? 

4 MS. BARHYDT: So my only comment 

5 is just listening to the discussion. I don't 

6 know whether people are not understanding the 

7 fundamental rule here which is that it is 

8 illegal to manufacture and distribute in 

9 commerce these large water heaters after April 

10 2015. So what we're looking for is a way to 

11 ensure that manufacturers are not breaking the 

12 law. And so we're looking for ways from the 

13 utilities, from the manufacturers, to if 

14 anything help protect the manufacturers 

15 because we will prosecute violations. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: We have someone via 

17 the web who wants to make a comment or ask a 

18 question. Harshal Upahye. Please speak 

19 clearly. 

20 MR. UPAHYE: Good afternoon, 

21 folks. This is Harshal -- can you hear me? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 218

1 Loudly, please. 

2 MR. UPAHYE: I'm from the Electric 

3 Power Research Institute and I've -- 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: We can't hear you. 

5 You need to find a way to get closer to the 

6 receiver or something. 

7 MR. UPAHYE: Can you hear me now? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That's better. Yes. 

9 MR. UPAHYE: So what I was talking 

10 about is how do we mention about having an 

11 interface for these water heaters? And I'm 

12 going to give out a number. It's called CEA13 2045 and that's a modular communications 

14 interface for energy management. And that's 

15 already there. It's already a released ANSI 

16 standard for energy management for devices, 

17 water heaters being one of the biggest loads 

18 that can be controlled. And what utilities 

19 can do probably is just mail out a document or 

20 something to people who want to get involved 

21 in this and they plug into that interface and 

22 the water heater works. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 219

1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Say 

2 the number again. 

3 MR. UPAHYE: The number is CEA4 2045. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Now Don 

6 Brundage. 

7 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

8 Southern Company. We don't actually have at 

9 my utility any programs using this right now, 

10 so I haven't said much, but I have been 

11 involved in a lot of discussions along these 

12 lines for control devices. 

13 To have a physical hardware 

14 control device on a long-lived appliance is 

15 very problematic. I think what you're really 

16 dealing with here and it goes back to what 

17 Frank Stanonik said earlier, the waiver is 

18 really from the manufacturer. We've been 

19 talking about waivers for utilities, but 

20 really it's not a waiver for the utilities, 

21 it's compliance and enforcement measures on 

22 the utilities to make sure they don't end up 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 220

1 in the wrong hands. 

2 And I think a lot of these issues 

3 here with the controllers would go away, if 

4 you had a good compliance and enforcement 

5 mechanism perhaps something as simple as a 

6 Home Depot or a Lowe's can't sell this device 

7 to somebody unless they come in hand with a 

8 certificate from the utility that they're 

9 involved in a load control program. And if 

10 you do a good job on that, you could ship 

11 something out with just something like a CEA12 2045 plug in and not do something complex that 

13 potentially is obsolete down the road. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Your 

15 name? 

16 MR. SPRINGER: Jeff Springer with 

17 Dairyland Power again. I respect Harvey's 

18 idea. I would love to see a universal 

19 interface that's out there. I can tell you in 

20 my own home that I have three different types 

21 of in-home control protocols and there's at 

22 least three more that I can think of offhand. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 221

1 So we're nowhere near a consumer standard yet 

2 on that. And what we'd like to do as 

3 utilities is see a consumer standard where we 

4 could interface with whatever other controls 

5 they have. 

6 There's no point in us going with 

7 a control type that their system can't see and 

8 control because the idea of controlling with 

9 smart phones is coming where you'll want to 

10 control your thermostat and so forth. But not 

11 everyone has Wi-Fi. Not everyone has ZigBee. 

12 Not everyone has all these other things, Z13 Wave and X10, all these others that are out 

14 there. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Harvey. 

16 Briefly. 

17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thanks 

18 for the chance to clarify. I'm not talking 

19 about specifying a controller. I'm talking 

20 about a physical interface and the software 

21 behind it that allows whatever controller you 

22 as a utility select to get two-way 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 222

1 communications with the appropriate 

2 information across that interface between you 

3 and the water heater. We've already heard 

4 some programs have gone through five or six 

5 successive generations of controllers. And 

6 I'm trying to help get out of that box so we 

7 have an interface that understands the likely 

8 evolution and now we have a plug in play for 

9 whatever particular brand you prefer. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 

11 MR. SPRINGER: It's a noble goal 

12 and we support it. But we just don't see it 

13 by 2015. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay, and then 

15 Allen, briefly. 

16 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. I'd 

17 like to respond to what the gentleman from 

18 Southern Company said and also to Laura's 

19 point. I understand this is a point of 

20 manufacturer standard, that if the 

21 manufacturer produces something that is 

22 noncompliant or doesn't receive a waiver, then 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 223

1 it's illegal. But if they produce a product 

2 that is legal because it's either compliant or 

3 receives a waiver, then as far as the law is 

4 concerned, as far as the standard is 

5 concerned, it doesn't matter who Home Depot 

6 sells it to. And it doesn't matter whether 

7 the consumer uses the water heater as a 

8 planter or as a snow -- toboggan, so long as 

9 the point of sale -- at the point of 

10 manufacture, it is either compliant or it 

11 meets the waiver. 

12 It seems to me that when we look 

13 at these sort of aggressive and complicated 

14 efforts to avoid any leakage whatsoever, we're 

15 losing a little bit of context. Congress has 

16 stated that it's the policy of the United 

17 States to promote demand response. The 

18 Secretary has made it clear that it's the 

19 policy of the Department to promote demand 

20 response. 

21 The question is whether the 

22 Department is willing to take a risk or the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 224

1 Secretary, because it's his waiver, is willing 

2 to take a risk for a couple of years that 

3 there might be a little bit of leakage in 

4 order to promote this policy that both 

5 Congress and the Department have said are 

6 extremely important. 

7 And so yes, you want to make sure 

8 that there's a distinction between the product 

9 that gets the waiver and the one on the shelf 

10 today. You want to try and do some tracking 

11 to make sure that there isn't an extraordinary 

12 amount of leakage so that you can amend or 

13 remove the waiver at a later date. But I 

14 think it's counterproductive and it fails to 

15 meet the goals of the Department to go so far 

16 to avoid a single product being sold to 

17 somebody who might use it as a toboggan that 

18 you lose the opportunity to do the demand 

19 response that we need to do. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Allen. 

21 MR. WICHER: Allen Wicher, Rheem. 

22 Just to follow on Jay's comments there. As a 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 225

1 manufacturer and supplier to the ETS programs 

2 for both heat pump and electric resistance 

3 water heaters, this complying with the NOPR as 

4 it is in terms of providing real time element 

5 control and a communications ability can be 

6 done in a simplistic and economic form, both. 

7 To me, identifying those products 

8 as ETS products can be done and can be 

9 controlled at the manufacturer level. We can 

10 report those numbers accordingly. We can 

11 report those numbers through AHRI as a 

12 certification body and they can certainly 

13 attest to those numbers. All manufacturers 

14 can do that and they can respond to those 

15 numbers as an industry. 

16 You can compare or contrast those 

17 numbers with what the utility base is 

18 submitting into their programs. And I would 

19 like to submit before we get all caught up in 

20 technology because we'll be here through the 

21 weekend doing that, I'd like to submit if we 

22 can compare those two numbers and manage that 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 226

1 going forward if we have a problem like this, 

2 we all need to look at it. But if it's a 

3 problem and it's just a timing issue of 

4 products versus getting installed into the 

5 utility-based programs, why is that such a 

6 large issue in terms of leakage? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Frank, did you have 

8 a comment? No. 

9 Yes, go ahead. 

10 MR. PRATT: Jeff Pratt with 

11 Oglethorpe Power. One last comment on that 

12 and I just wanted to reinforce both of these. 

13 It seems to me that with this 2015 deadline 

14 approaching, the market has not responded 

15 adequately to prevent unintended consequences 

16 of causing problems with demand response which 

17 as Jay said is a significant goal. 

18 So I just once again urge to 

19 consider the unintended consequence is going 

20 to happen with rules as we've stated. 

21 Flexibility in moving into those rules given 

22 where we're at and the realities of the 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 227

1 manufacturing and marketplace availability of 

2 products that fits with demand response 

3 programs, flexibility in that, in this process 

4 through this waiver process will be very 

5 helpful. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We're 

7 going to move on now. There are only two more 

8 segments, two more comment segments. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm actually going 

10 to argue that we hit this one, but with the 

11 last two. But this is just an overview of 

12 what the proposal requires in terms of the 

13 water heaters characteristics itself, as well 

14 as we already hit that it requires the utility 

15 programs kind of the mapping between OEM and 

16 the utility programs that again the basic 

17 model is going to. 

18 So I think we've gotten most of 

19 the comments on that, but if anyone has 

20 anything else to say on this, I'll leave it up 

21 for a second. Otherwise, I'm going to keep 

22 going. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 228

1 MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. 

2 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

3 AHRI. I mean Ashley, I guess my point is that 

4 if a utility is running an ETS program, 

5 they're going to need one of these water 

6 heaters. So it seems to me what DOE is 

7 basically asking for is an annual list of 

8 utilities running ETS programs once we get 

9 past 2015, I guess. So maybe then -- maybe -- 

10 to me, that's a separate, if you will, data 

11 collection, separate from any waiver process. 

12 It's just okay, who's running ETS programs in 

13 the United States? They're going to need one 

14 of these water heaters? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good segue. 

17 MR. BRYANT: Markus Bryant. 

18 Question for Ashley. What do you mean by 

19 annual allotment value? Are you looking for -

20 - what kind of number are you looking for? 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Shipments. So the 

22 number of units that are going to be used and 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 229

1 installed new in your program each year. 

2 MR. BRYANT: Well, the situation 

3 we have is if you had asked me in 2007, I 

4 could have told you it was going to be roughly 

5 300 a year for one co-op and 100 a year for 

6 the other. Our housing market has collapsed, 

7 as you may be aware. And I couldn't give any 

8 kind of commitment to a manufacturer today as 

9 to what we're going to need. 

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you're arguing 

11 for a shorter time period to be more flexible 

12 in the numbers, is that right? 

13 MR. BRYANT: I'm just saying -- 

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: You don't want to 

15 do that five years in advance. I wouldn't 

16 either. 

17 MR. BRYANT: Just giving you a 

18 number I don't think is practical. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

20 We're moving on to the next slide. 

21 Sam, did you want in here? 

22 MR. BRUMBERG: Extremely briefly. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 230

1 Whether you talk about this from an 

2 enforcement and compliance perspective or 

3 putting all of this into the application, I 

4 still -- I really want to sensitize DOE to the 

5 consequences of this. If I'm the 

6 manufacturer, I'm not interested in compiling 

7 this list. I'm not interested in getting to 

8 the granular level that's going to be needed 

9 to put together this application, and frankly, 

10 it's arguable that I'm interested in the risk 

11 associated with enforcement, potential 

12 enforcement consequences in the first place. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So then we are 

14 moving to the next slide. 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

16 DOE. So I didn't mean to be flippant in my 

17 last remark, but the way we thought about the 

18 one year thing is -- this is our thinking. 

19 I'm a utility. You know you have, let's say, 

20 200,000 people in this program. You know 

21 that. I know you know that. Based on some 

22 simple, I think, your planning on how you're 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 231

1 going to grow the program or not grow the 

2 program, based on some retirement curves that 

3 I think are pretty straightforward in the 

4 literature about water heaters, you can 

5 estimate roughly how many those might retire 

6 from the stock each year. 

7 We thought that this was something 

8 that would give you a lot of flexibility to 

9 say hey, we think we're going to need 15,000 

10 in the retirement roughly, roughly 15,000. 

11 Maybe you want to high ball the number a 

12 little bit to keep yourself covered. And we 

13 think we're going to grow the program by two 

14 percent this year. You can do the math. You 

15 can say we need a waiver for roughly X 

16 thousand water heaters. 

17 We understand that from year to 

18 year things might change and you would want to 

19 be able to be very flexible. So I just want 

20 to throw out there that was our thinking. If 

21 we got it wrong, you know, maybe we got it 

22 wrong, but that's exactly what we were 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 232

1 thinking when we devised this. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Frank. 

3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

4 AHRI. So John, what I just heard is that if 

5 this was required then really the information 

6 to be provided would be the maximum number one 

7 might anticipate for a given year. If they 

8 fall short, they fall short, but they wouldn't 

9 be able to produce more than this. So again, 

10 if they were -- well, whatever. They could 

11 just -- if their experience said I'm turning 

12 over or whatever let's say 3,000, they might 

13 ask for a waiver for 5,000 just to give them a 

14 cushion. But -- I guess, I know I certainly 

15 looked at it and read it to say well, we want 

16 to know how many are you going to put in this 

17 year as opposed to establishing if you will a 

18 ceiling production. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. I 

20 think it was meant to be an approximation. 

21 Obviously, you're not going to get to the 

22 single unit. And by no means does DOE require 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 233

1 you to say manufacture X, I want 100 units 

2 this year. I want 200 next year and 

3 regardless of participation in my program I'm 

4 going to buy those. By no means, but it's 

5 going to give DOE a sense of these are the 

6 number of units being manufactured. This is 

7 where these programs are going as well as have 

8 a way to judge against the ones being 

9 manufactured and what's now on this slide, the 

10 utility reporting requirements. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay. 

12 MR. MORRISON: John, we appreciate 

13 your interest in providing flexibility. But if 

14 this is the manufacturer's waiver as opposed 

15 to the utility's and I know that was one of 

16 the first questions we discussed, and if 

17 they're not required to get the waiver to map 

18 specific product SKU numbers with specific 

19 controllers, to particular utilities, then 

20 this estimation in advance of how many are 

21 going to be needed is no longer relevant. If 

22 they're going to produce a product that is 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 234

1 compliant with a waiver's description of what 

2 is an enabled unit, and they're going to ship 

3 them through their normal distribution 

4 methods, and those units can be moved around 

5 the country as the distributors find is 

6 necessary according to who is growing and who 

7 isn't in terms of these programs, then these 

8 numbers really aren't necessary and they 

9 aren't helpful. 

10 What's helpful is what's on this 

11 slide for post hoc analysis of how well we're 

12 doing in terms of getting these water heaters 

13 into our programs. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, Steve 

16 Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. To 

17 follow up with Jay, I think there's always 

18 concern about reporting a projected number. 

19 There's a worry that are we going to be 

20 penalized if we're way over or way under and I 

21 think if there's something in there that -- if 

22 you still require some sort of projection, 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 235

1 some sort of language that says this is just 

2 for estimation only. There's no penalty. 

3 There's no impact if the post analysis shows 

4 that you were different from your number. I 

5 think that's -- to follow on, I think that's 

6 the issue we're always concerned about being 

7 locked into a number and being felt like oh, 

8 I'm forced to do something about it in case 

9 I'm way over or way under. I think that's 

10 what we want to avoid. Thank you. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 

12 MR. SACHS: Just a note that -- 

13 and I really would ask Rheem to comment on 

14 this and G.E. My sense is if the manufacturer 

15 ships to one of the several hundred 

16 distributors who serve regions and that these 

17 guys are not particularly interested in 

18 reshipping to some other distributor in some 

19 other region, that there may be a practical 

20 issue with conceptually thinking about the 

21 post-manufactured shipments of products around 

22 the country. Manufacturers take a great deal 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 236

1 of care to think about their demand as they 

2 tell me from different areas. I'm a little 

3 concerned about the secondary shipment 

4 question. Just conceptually. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes -- 

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: If I may -- 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: One sec. 

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Harvey, that 

10 was a pretty good intro. So I was going to 

11 ask the manufacturers what they would think 

12 about as part of -- right now, they're 

13 required to certify annually each basic model 

14 that they sell in commerce and in theory that 

15 would hold true for the DRs as well. What 

16 would your feel be to reporting shipment 

17 annually for those basic models that meet DR 

18 criteria? 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Allen? 

20 MR. WICHER: Allen Wicher, Rheem. 

21 Yes, would just add that as a mano a mano 

22 annual report. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 237

1 MR. JONES: Well, again, 

2 definitions, DR models, right? 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well -- 

4 MR. JONES: You mean old 

5 technology models that are responsive to 

6 signals? 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Waiver models. 

8 MR. JONES: Okay, great. We don't 

9 make them, so we can't comment. 

10 (Laughter.) 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay, go ahead. 

12 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. There 

13 are certainly going to be product shipments to 

14 very local distributors. But there are also 

15 large numbers of product shipments to national 

16 distributors, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's. 

17 If Lowe's in one area of the country runs out, 

18 I as a customer, can order that product to be 

19 delivered from a Lowe's in a different part of 

20 the company. These national companies do move 

21 product around as needed. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 238

1 MR. JONES: I did have another 

2 question on this. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Earl. 

4 MR. JONES: And that was on this 

5 question of the -- did I understand that the 

6 process as proposed would not allow for public 

7 comment? 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: There was no 

9 public comment required or not. It was mute. 

10 Is that what you meant? On each individual 

11 application, there was no requirement for 

12 public comment. 

13 MR. JONES: Does that mean it's 

14 not available? I'm just trying to understand. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: There was not one 

16 proposed. So I think you could assume that it 

17 would not -- our proposal didn't include a 

18 requirement for one. 

19 MR. JONES: The reason I ask the 

20 question is I mean now that we've gotten to 

21 the point of saying that the numbers involved 

22 can be estimated or something, would that mean 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 239

1 then that if I were a utility that to date had 

2 1,000 participants that I may have a market 

3 plan which says my goal is 5,000 or 10,000, 

4 and therefore that's the number that I'm going 

5 to be applying a waiver for? And that would 

6 be information which wouldn't be available for 

7 public comment? 

8 To the extent that that is -- 

9 that's what the proposal is at the moment, I 

10 certainly hope that Department would change 

11 its position on that. If you go forward with 

12 this waiver process which is fraught with all 

13 of the problems that we've been discussing 

14 today, then the least thing we can do is to 

15 make it as transparent as possible. And the 

16 objective certainly should not be to expand 

17 these programs because that just basically 

18 really opens the door to evisceration of the 

19 rule. 

20 And it's really kind of unfair in 

21 a way to say that, as an example, that rural 

22 consumers cannot take advantage of progress 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 240

1 and that somehow they're stuck in wherever 

2 they are today and I'm not going to be able to 

3 participate in programs which provide them the 

4 opportunity to save significant funds. And 

5 utilities which, already by the way, as I 

6 understand it, provide incentives, simply have 

7 to reconceive their incentive programs to 

8 enable a different result. So I hope you will 

9 certainly amend it at least to say that. In 

10 fact, I wonder whether or not that would even 

11 be lawful. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: There is one more, 

13 moving ahead, there's one more comment box 

14 that the Department is asking you about. 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, so just 

16 lastly, the last comment box talks about the 

17 reporting process through EIA Form 861 and 

18 861S. And I guess to just tie this all 

19 together, the way the Department could check, 

20 say for example, if Rheem and other 

21 manufacturers provided shipments on an annual 

22 basis, we could then go check with the new 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 241

1 questions on the 861 surveys from EIA that, in 

2 fact, the participants in these programs, they 

3 increase or decrease as it may be, support the 

4 level of shipments that came from the 

5 manufacturer. So this was our way of kind of 

6 tying the loop and then we can check and if 

7 there's a huge discrepancy -- or if there's a 

8 big enough discrepancy where we believe the 

9 leakage issue is more than one or two, three, 

10 five, how many it is, units that obviously 

11 corrective action needs to be taken. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

14 EEI. EEI discussed this with our colleagues 

15 at APPA and NRECA and we were all okay with 

16 this concept of adding this question to the 

17 EIA forms because a way to give DOE a more 

18 comfort level and also since it's post what 

19 happened that we can report to EIA. We're 

20 very comfortable with that concept. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, 

22 Steve. Additional comments on this? I guess 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 242

1 Don Brundage. 

2 MR. BRUNDAGE: One suggestion on 

3 this. I like the concept. There's also a bit 

4 of a problem when you're asked to fill out a 

5 federal form and you have no clue at your 

6 utility because you haven't gathered that 

7 information about what size. If you could 

8 stick a check box in there, whether it's 

9 actual or estimated, number of storage volumes 

10 because not all utilities may have documented 

11 the storage size of the water heaters. Thank 

12 you. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think we've 

14 covered what the Department intended to cover 

15 here this morning. And I want to provide 

16 another opportunity for individuals to make 

17 closing remarks briefly. Other issues that 

18 haven't been covered sufficiently. 

19 I see, Jay, you'd like to go 

20 first. 

21 MR. MORRISON: I just did want to 

22 highlight that last slide. There was a box 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 243

1 asking about the small businesses. The 

2 cooperatives clearly aren't small business 

3 manufacturers, but the NOPR did ask about 

4 impact on any other small businesses. All but 

5 a handful of rural electric cooperatives 

6 qualify as small businesses under the SBA 

7 definition of a small electric utility. And 

8 so this would have a significant impact on a 

9 large number of small electric utilities. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 Additional closing remarks, final comments as 

12 we move towards closure? 

13 Then from my part I thank you for 

14 the direct and effective comment that has 

15 happened today. All of you have an evaluation 

16 form at the bottom of your packet. It only 

17 takes about 30 seconds to fill it out. So 

18 please, the Department is always interested in 

19 finding ways to improve these meetings and 

20 I'll turn it back to John Cymbalsky. 

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. 

22 Just one last reminder about the comment 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 244

1 period closing at the end of April, April 

2 29th. And I know a lot of you talked about 

3 good data that you have and studies and what 

4 not. So we would appreciate all of those 

5 being sent to us. We can put it in the 

6 docket. And once again, thanks for coming. I 

7 think we all learned a lot about how important 

8 this DR program is to all of you and us as 

9 well. So safe travels and thanks for coming. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Please fill out the 

11 evaluation form. 

12 (Whereupon, at 1:13 p.m., the 

13 public meeting was concluded.) 

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 245

A

ability 30:17 40:22

46:15 52:6 58:13

78:11 79:20 83:1

88:17 98:20 108:9

114:17 121:1

133:9 134:13

135:13 139:18,20

140:18 141:21

143:2 146:3

168:22 169:2

176:5,6 181:21

197:20 225:5

able 17:7 26:15

31:20 32:5 39:9

93:8 98:2,3 112:3

142:4 165:20

167:18 172:9,12

174:14 196:22

199:8 201:13,14

209:20 231:19

232:9 240:2

above-entitled

153:6

absolute 189:20

absolutely 72:14

81:21 146:21

absorb 190:10

acceptable 145:16

146:8

accepts 148:17

access 36:18 99:5

105:15 191:17

197:11

accessible 15:5

accommodate

38:12 136:9

149:22

accomplish 106:11

142:16 193:7

accomplished

145:7

accomplishment

146:20

accounts 40:13

55:19 58:19 71:12

71:14,19 111:15

125:21

accurate 122:13

138:2

ACEEE 5:4 144:12

achievable 140:1

achieve 127:22

133:13 140:7,10

191:1 206:18

achieved 48:19

49:1,3,5

acknowledge 59:11

Aclara 62:4

acquired 56:1,14

act 150:17,17,18

155:15

acting 131:13

136:15

action 13:15 40:20

46:13 155:13

241:11

actions 30:15

active 80:4 95:3

actively 191:14,21

193:2

activities 88:12

129:20

actual 23:3 104:2,8

152:3 202:1 203:8

242:9

Adam 2:6 9:19

adaptation 34:6

add 56:22 79:3

106:4 148:3

161:13 162:10

236:21

added 56:14 68:13

70:1 162:8

adding 67:9 86:15

241:16

addition 20:11

23:14 42:11 70:11

76:8 100:2 105:1

105:19 106:16

additional 24:8

36:12 42:8,21

54:1 56:13 58:17

96:1 98:5 106:4

110:4 117:3

123:17 161:15

172:14 241:22

243:11

Additionally 52:22

127:20

address 43:18

49:11 57:5 92:2

92:20 95:13

117:10 128:3

142:19 165:14,16

174:8 185:12

addressed 174:9

213:2

addresses 140:18

163:19 213:13

addressing 133:2

138:8 142:20

adds 81:9

adequate 72:14

110:1 118:4,12

adequately 76:12

226:15

adhering 86:15

Adjourn 5:10

adjustment 123:15

administer 60:9

administering

157:17

administers 19:14

Administration

88:11

adopted 90:9

154:19 206:7

advance 93:7

189:13 229:15

233:20

advanced 143:15

147:16

advancements

131:12

advances 100:5

advantage 29:10

184:9,11 239:22

adverse 45:2 68:2

advocate 68:8

advocating 183:10

184:2

affect 30:16 136:10

156:9 163:16

afford 188:21

affordable 47:16

55:6 107:15 131:6

131:13 132:1

afforded 99:13

afoul 91:15

afternoon 141:11

217:20

age 211:11

agenda 12:21 152:7

aggregate 85:21

aggregated 85:12

aggregating 85:7

aggressive 223:13

ago 33:17 34:2

202:22 208:8

agree 15:19 29:14

58:1 122:2

agreement 68:7

agreements 122:3

agricultural 111:17

ahead 35:7 188:2

190:13 191:5

192:4,20 195:20

211:16 221:15

222:10 226:9

228:15 232:2

237:11 240:13

AHRI 2:22 162:16

167:9 168:18

198:3 214:18

225:11 228:3

232:4

Aiken 2:8 4:9 10:15

40:13,13 41:8,17

41:20 82:22

air 9:5 14:13 17:19

30:22 101:16

106:1 118:12

120:11 127:21

Alabama 94:13,16

Alex 2:15 3:3,7 4:6

7:2 9:21 28:11

181:6 182:18

211:15 213:3

align 50:9

Allen 3:1 7:16

165:18 222:15

224:20,21 236:19

236:20

allied 186:5

allotment 228:19

allow 23:21 29:4

51:21 59:2 64:18

72:5 84:4 100:7

103:22 104:16

106:19 112:17

117:22 123:7

128:8 131:2,21

149:21 238:6

allowed 133:14

150:15 161:16

167:12 197:3

allowing 33:15

34:21 91:11

125:11 135:8

148:20

allows 35:4 128:20

135:16 139:6

148:7 203:20

221:21

alluded 52:11

alter 27:1

alternative 26:10

109:13

alternatives 103:8

155:18

Altman 1:12 9:8,8

173:16,16 174:7

175:1

amend 45:1 52:1

224:12 240:9

amended 154:19

amending 53:9

amends 45:6 59:1

American 2:13 3:7

4:6 7:3 9:3 12:4

28:12

AMI 36:6

amount 20:6

159:13 166:13
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 246

169:5 187:19

224:12

amounts 21:1 49:8

69:16

amplify 151:16

AMR 62:4

Amy 2:12 5:1 8:8

121:7

analogy 183:16

analyses 90:22

135:22

analysis 90:2 92:10

144:12 147:13

150:3,19 151:2,13

151:22 180:10

234:11 235:3

Analyst 7:14

analysts 144:12

analytically 90:10

analyze 51:22

178:18

analyzing 24:9

ancillary 19:21

130:13

anecdotal 136:1

annual 22:16 42:3

43:20 49:13 56:9

77:8 118:19 122:5

228:7,19 236:22

240:21

annually 109:21

116:17 149:12

236:13,17

ANSI 218:15

answer 32:19 86:17

160:5 161:20,21

177:2 193:9

answering 32:22

anti 91:15 146:5

anticipate 232:7

anti-backsliding

123:1

anybody 13:4

153:10 165:15

anybody's 208:1

anyway 207:14

AO 170:14

apartment 136:7

apartments 118:7

apologize 160:18

196:17

APPA 241:15

apparent 140:6

141:10,18

apparently 167:17

appeal 53:4

appears 46:6 48:11

58:13 213:15

appliance 9:18

16:7 68:21 70:15

158:15 175:22

182:6 219:14

appliances 2:3 6:21

11:19 101:15

179:4 182:4,8

185:4

applicability

143:10

applicant 157:13

158:8

applicants 93:2

application 137:7

138:14,17 139:4

139:14,19 140:19

141:12,13 143:2

144:2 157:19,20

157:21 158:3

160:20 168:21

189:13 190:7

191:3 230:3,9

238:11

applications 69:1

99:15 151:4 166:3

186:6 188:12

212:21

applied 19:7 21:18

142:2,10

applies 161:1

163:11 164:2

apply 157:16,17

161:10 162:4

169:17,20 171:6

215:6

applying 35:3

138:18 141:15

239:5

appreciate 18:14

24:18 30:18 40:16

40:20 54:2 55:1

59:20 63:7,9

66:16 71:7,21

79:2 95:12 106:6

153:12 205:19,20

233:12 244:4

appreciative 22:4

approach 38:21

39:21 91:4 95:11

123:6 124:12

142:4,5 170:2

173:15 181:22

203:15 206:17

approached 32:20

approaches 21:3

183:21

approaching

198:16 226:14

appropriate 38:9

134:20 137:1

139:14 178:4

222:1

appropriately

138:8 140:3

approval 166:14

approved 62:2

approximately

41:21 42:14 43:9

98:9 102:22 119:9

125:20 152:8

211:15

approximation

232:20

April 18:7 40:21

41:6 46:14 71:22

79:18 116:2

154:19 207:19

217:9 244:1,1

area 64:12 71:15

74:22 87:6 99:4

104:13 107:22

109:14 114:4

237:17

areas 63:1,17,18

99:4 100:9 107:17

108:21 110:16

118:10 212:16

236:2

arguable 230:10

arguably 169:4

argue 174:21

192:17 227:10

argued 70:2

arguing 193:3

229:10

argument 193:6

195:8

Ari 1:12 9:8 173:16

175:1

arises 179:14

Armstrong 1:13

5:6 9:14,14

153:21,22 159:1,8

160:5 161:20

164:5 168:7

170:21 177:5

201:9 227:9

228:16,21 232:19

236:5,7,9 237:3,7

238:8,15

arose 202:8

Ashley 1:13 5:6

9:14 19:3 25:12

25:16 89:3 153:21

158:22 159:1,8

161:19 164:3

168:6,7 170:21

201:7 202:20

228:3,18 232:19

Ashley's 167:5

asked 32:17 39:6

132:16 144:15

165:1 202:8 229:3

242:4

asking 29:11

164:16 165:5

187:5 201:3 228:7

240:14 243:1

aspect 104:11

aspects 112:19

177:8 178:4 213:9

assess 28:1 91:13

92:15

assessment 93:3

assessments 90:4

assist 24:9

Assistant 9:12

associate 45:12

102:16

associated 42:8

82:6 117:3 169:12

230:11

Association 2:3,7

2:11,13,18,19 3:7

4:7,10 7:3 8:18

12:5 28:12 45:13

45:17 46:18 48:2

53:7,13,22

Association's 65:8

assume 209:18

238:16

assumes 105:2

assumption 185:17

assumptions

181:15

assurance 186:18

202:4

assurances 86:13

182:8 204:3

assure 72:14

assured 104:20

196:18 197:3

as-need 190:22

Atlanta 121:14

ATLANTIS 62:3

attach 203:21

attached 40:3

45:18 74:5 76:5

120:8

attempt 106:7

attempting 200:9

attempts 148:19

attendance 15:18

attention 16:2

attest 62:19 225:13

attributes 177:15

August 197:9
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 247

automatic 147:21

availability 51:10

71:15 78:3 82:2

114:5 143:9 227:1

available 14:5

31:10 33:9 44:6

61:9 67:6 70:10

75:19 101:4 104:8

104:21 106:9

107:18 109:10

118:14 119:5

124:2 127:18,19

134:8 135:5

143:19,19 156:8

191:22 192:16

193:7 196:3 197:6

197:8 204:10,17

204:18 206:7

209:12 210:10

238:14 239:6

avenue 1:9 198:20

avoid 204:2 223:14

224:16 235:10

avoided 98:11

184:8

avoiding 184:1

awakes 178:12

aware 123:1 229:7

awful 144:18

a.m 1:9 6:2 84:3

153:7,8

B

back 14:18 39:10

42:4 87:19 135:3

161:13 175:6

186:2 194:10

198:3 206:8

219:16 243:20

backbone 103:14

107:13

background

154:14

backing 198:18

backsliding 91:16

135:3,18 174:11

184:2,3

backwards 209:3

bad 147:11 152:9

badges 152:19

Baker 2:1,2 4:5,23

7:4,4,13,13 18:22

19:2,6 115:2,3,4,7

115:7 188:3,7,7

190:14,14 191:6

balance 119:12

177:13 183:20

balanced 38:21

39:21 181:22

balancing 130:18

183:11 184:14

ball 231:11

Ballo 2:2 5:5 12:6,6

150:8,10

Baltimore 6:13

band 62:1

Barhydt 1:13 9:11

9:11 217:4

Barry 2:8 4:9 10:15

40:7,11

base 38:6 108:6

225:17

based 28:20 44:11

90:10 119:2 120:5

138:16 207:21

230:21 231:2

baseline 141:6

bashful 196:2

basic 117:13 162:1

164:10,14 227:16

236:13,17

basically 134:13

144:4 228:7

239:17

basis 55:1 136:20

153:17 181:9

190:22 240:22

batteries 83:12,12

83:15,19 85:8,11

battery 69:20 70:7

85:7,9,10,13 86:2

139:18 180:4

183:16 214:8

bear 132:8 133:4

136:18

bearing 52:2

151:11

beat 25:14,15

beauty 161:8

BEC 125:18

becoming 69:18

111:22 143:18

began 22:1 47:19

48:22

beginning 60:2

63:10 84:2 154:3

begins 140:6

begun 35:2

behalf 59:17 66:9

89:4 115:11 121:9

203:20

behavior 52:10,12

believe 48:7 69:4

73:18 74:4,19

76:11 79:16

112:20 122:10

123:3 145:4

146:13 147:22

185:19,20 205:17

208:3 241:8

believes 123:9

believing 122:3

Bell 148:2

benefit 34:1 42:14

78:15 86:8 92:20

110:15 111:6

116:9 129:3 198:1

benefits 34:7,18

48:6,7 78:14

89:18 90:13,19

91:11 102:9

131:12 146:1

183:12

benefitted 23:6

77:11

benign 20:3

Berkeley 2:15,20

3:8 5:2 9:22

125:8,10

best 14:16 123:8

126:5 174:19

197:12

better 17:16 26:6

46:20 74:3 85:14

86:8 122:12

128:10 136:13

145:4 149:21

179:9 218:8

Beyerle 2:3 11:18

11:18

beyond 149:16

152:13

big 61:17 101:6

120:22 194:4

208:6 241:8

biggest 218:17

bill 84:12

bills 76:9

bit 13:1 47:17

91:17 94:21

187:12 210:2,3

216:2 223:15

224:3 231:12

242:3

bits 210:4

blanket 169:22

blue 141:11

Blythewood 10:13

board 32:2 57:13

61:6 81:19

body 225:12

BOESENBERG

3:3

boosters 150:4

boosting 204:11

borne 58:18

bottom 243:16

box 61:17 101:6

176:21,22 195:13

222:6 240:13,16

242:8,22

boxes 18:3 154:9

brainer 208:1

branch 109:2

brand 36:7 119:15

222:9

brands 143:17

break 13:9 122:15

137:17 144:8

150:9 152:18

breakdown 155:10

breaking 152:14

217:11

breakout 137:12

138:16

brevity 59:9 63:5

bribe 146:22

brief 12:21 96:17

212:1

briefly 54:6 68:5

137:11 154:2

173:17 189:17

200:15 211:16

221:16 222:15

229:22 242:17

bring 31:2

brings 41:5

broad 91:4

broadband 108:7

212:20,21

broadly 91:14

143:19 199:22

Brookman 1:9,12

4:2 6:3,12 10:3

12:14,18 15:2

16:21 18:16 25:1

25:4 28:10 29:20

35:11 40:7 45:8

54:4,7,10,14 59:6

63:6 66:6 70:18

76:16 78:18 83:3

88:22 94:8 96:2

102:12 107:7

110:18 115:1,5

121:7 125:5 129:8

132:4 144:6 150:7

152:6 153:9

158:11,22 160:9

160:15,17 161:19

162:13 164:3

165:13 167:4,16

168:6,10 170:5

171:11 172:13

175:13 176:18

177:4 178:13
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 248

181:5 182:18

184:17 186:22

188:1,6 189:15

190:13 191:5,16

192:2,19 193:17

194:16 195:10,14

195:17 198:10,21

200:14 201:7

202:19 205:16

206:19 207:12

208:22 210:15,20

211:14 213:3

214:15 215:18

217:2,16,22 218:4

218:8 219:1,5

220:14 221:15

222:10,14 224:20

226:7 227:6 228:1

228:15 229:19

230:13 232:2

233:11 234:14

235:11 236:19

237:11,22 238:3

240:12 241:12,21

242:13 243:10

244:10

brought 16:1 28:21

96:16 146:18

213:13,14

Brumberg 2:3 4:9

8:16,17 45:9,10

45:11 54:5,9,11

168:15,15 211:17

211:17 229:22

Brundage 2:4

12:10,10 219:6,7

219:7 242:1,2

Bryan 2:12 5:1 8:8

8:8 121:8,9

Bryant 2:5 4:14

11:20,20 70:19,20

70:21 178:15,15

192:6,6 193:9

228:17,17 229:2

229:13,17

Buckeye 12:2

budgeting 73:3

Buffalo 83:16

build 167:12,13

172:8 207:18

209:10

builder 216:3,12

builders 126:7,13

building 6:11 9:17

24:2 98:4 113:3

152:20

Buildings 9:15

built 166:18

bulk 124:19

bullet 203:5

bunch 209:1

burden 44:11 93:9

109:19 151:11,12

burdened 43:7

burdens 70:1 151:9

burdensome 50:7

51:21 93:14 119:8

120:20

business 7:14 8:1

35:15 36:15 53:17

65:2,3 66:11

67:17 73:2 101:2

119:14 166:6

211:4 243:2

businesses 37:13

243:1,4,6

buy 28:5 75:8

80:16 101:5 122:5

170:10,13 196:9

197:21 206:10,22

233:4

buyers 19:16

bypass 27:20 91:9

C

calculate 135:8

California 23:16

call 64:7 80:14

146:5

called 23:4 83:22

87:20 148:6

218:12

Canada 130:5

cancel 27:1,5

canceled 26:14

capabilities 108:8

205:9

capability 71:20

103:4 114:16

190:10 199:14,21

208:16,20

capable 112:6

146:7 203:5

capacity 19:20 20:8

21:18 23:1,14,15

23:17 24:1 31:10

32:3,11,14 33:13

34:3 35:22 37:16

37:19 41:10 42:7

42:16 47:13 55:3

55:9,21 58:14

59:3 60:17,20

62:17 71:8 72:2

75:2 78:4 79:20

83:1,20 84:3

85:18 86:14 88:17

95:6 96:19 97:18

98:1,7 99:8,9,14

100:6,14 103:13

103:19,20,22

104:17 106:8

107:1 112:10

114:1 115:16,21

116:5 117:1,14

118:1,16 126:7,18

128:9 129:5 130:6

130:9 131:3,21

133:7 134:1

137:18 188:16

189:4,6 194:21

195:1

capture 31:20

captured 18:11

200:2

car 214:8,11

carbon 68:20 69:5

69:9 70:14 177:14

204:12

care 82:11 236:1

Carolina 7:7 8:15

10:14,19 30:4,8

31:1 32:12,21

40:14 41:9 42:13

43:9,15 76:21

79:2 115:10,12

117:8 125:9,19

171:21,21 189:8

Carolinians 30:10

carrier 62:5 87:3

120:4 128:19

carry 69:22

cars 207:1

case 61:22 147:5

163:7 216:15

235:8

caseload 160:4

cases 20:2 61:18

91:2 93:4 101:6

104:2 105:12

117:19 183:9,13

189:6

Cass 2:17 4:22 10:6

110:21 111:9,13

111:20 114:20

Catch-22 22:19

category 87:12,13

87:20 180:11

Catherine 3:4 10:1

caucuses 178:9

caught 225:19

cause 64:21

causing 226:16

CEA 218:12 219:3

220:11

ceiling 232:18

cell 14:7 15:6

206:22

cellular 209:15

central 2:16 4:7

8:14 11:22 30:2,5

30:20 31:5 71:1

71:13,15 106:1

126:15

centralized 20:19

century 178:6

CEO 8:20 59:15

94:11

certain 52:18 128:3

148:9 156:9 183:8

183:13 187:19

200:20 202:12

certainly 66:2

67:11 68:12 70:2

115:22 131:15,17

137:1 175:10

225:12 232:14

237:13 239:10,16

240:9

certainty 23:8

26:12,17 29:16

44:3 45:3 47:10

49:17 102:8

118:22

certificate 220:8

certification

225:12

certify 236:13

cetera 119:16

chain 50:20,22

57:17 61:12

123:22 124:3

chains 122:11

challenge 113:15

165:21 166:2

209:7

challenges 26:8

187:22

chance 107:11

221:18

change 27:5 100:17

120:22 141:13

172:7 181:19

231:18 239:10

changed 182:7

changeouts 129:1

changes 36:13 52:5

58:12 60:16 62:12

78:8,10 82:5

88:14 89:20

106:22 110:13

120:21 163:5

changing 68:16,17

channel 61:15

channels 57:20

characteristics
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 249

145:21 202:12

227:13

charge 193:21

charged 21:6

charges 42:21 77:9

83:21 86:2 95:6

chart 139:22

check 109:2 201:2

240:19,22 241:6

242:8

chime 110:8

choice 52:15,20

74:10 181:10

choices 43:8 97:8

119:15

Chuck 12:8

circle 143:4

circulation 118:12

circumstances 16:6

92:13

cited 133:19

cities 29:5

cladly 163:21

claim 104:22

Claire 2:9 4:20

7:20 102:16

clarification

160:20

clarify 221:18

class 122:19 123:21

124:5 149:15

classification

100:17 123:12

172:21 173:13

174:5,21

clear 140:12

162:16 202:11

223:18

clearly 92:1 143:13

167:18 203:12

217:19 243:2

climate 38:14

114:11

clock 35:2

close 6:18 116:13

208:11

closeout 147:16

closer 218:5

closet 43:14

closets 118:9

closing 5:8 13:16

18:8 242:17

243:11 244:1

closure 243:12

clue 242:5

code 207:6 214:3,7

Codes 9:17

coffee 152:21 153:2

Coffey 3:8 4:11

11:11,11 54:4,14

54:15,16

cold 114:11 216:22

Coleman 3:2 4:12

11:13,13 59:7,8

59:14

collapsed 229:6

colleague 136:17

colleagues 52:11

146:12 177:7

241:14

collect 26:20 52:1

158:7

collection 27:22

228:11

Collectively 60:3

colorful 153:16

Columbia 4:8 8:15

19:13 30:3

column 139:19

140:1

combination

127:11,16,19

156:18

combined 71:5

128:1 180:14

combustion 42:12

117:5

come 37:19 58:16

82:16 91:20

112:15 121:3

134:14 136:21

144:22 148:3

157:19 171:20

175:9 176:14

214:3 220:7

comes 78:2 93:15

134:17 135:21

164:21 166:9

170:17 197:10

199:6

comfort 241:18

comfortable

241:20

coming 69:16

84:14,16 94:4

141:20 142:9

166:3 179:22

198:19 221:9

244:6,9

command 134:15

comment 16:10

18:2,4,6 41:3

45:15 55:2 66:20

68:5 69:14 76:22

78:17 79:3 93:12

93:15 96:14

102:20 107:11

115:14 144:5

151:17 153:15,18

154:9 155:8 157:8

158:6 162:12

167:17 168:13,17

173:21 176:20

178:13,22 183:14

184:13 189:21

198:11 204:22

206:8 207:14

214:22 217:3,4,17

226:8,11 227:8

235:13 237:9

238:7,9,12 239:7

240:13,16 243:14

243:22

commented 50:2

136:6

commenter 150:7

commenters

133:19 137:14

155:12,13

comments 13:18,20

14:14 17:13 18:8

18:12,15,18 24:17

30:11,19 36:17

45:6 53:8,16 54:2

54:6 59:1,12 68:7

82:20 89:14 90:15

95:22 96:3,16

114:21 132:10,22

136:1 153:11

155:9,10 156:11

157:10 172:13,14

172:20 178:16

204:7 205:19

214:18 224:22

227:19 241:22

243:11

commerce 27:14

186:9 217:9

236:14

commercial 111:16

193:5

commercially

143:19

commissions

200:18,19

commitment

124:16 170:12

229:8

committing 170:9

common 85:22

206:2,2,3 211:6

communicate

113:22 199:21

210:14

communication

16:3 64:10,13,19

65:9 74:11 206:4

207:8 209:12

212:17

communications

51:9 134:20 203:6

203:10 209:8

218:13 222:1

225:5

community 177:11

companies 154:16

160:1 237:20

company 2:4 7:18

12:11 34:11

122:17 148:10

160:21 165:19

192:15 219:8

222:18 237:20

company's 157:22

compare 225:16,22

compared 104:3

comparison 139:17

compatible 51:16

58:5 62:12 81:4

120:14

compete 20:1

competitive 19:15

124:1 128:12

compiling 230:6

complement 113:7

complete 14:4

191:12

completely 18:19

complex 49:20 57:9

81:18 113:18

220:12

complexity 70:1

109:15 113:9

compliance 148:18

149:7 201:17

219:21 220:4

230:2

compliant 198:6

223:2,10 234:1

complicated 23:13

51:20 80:22 81:6

223:13

complication 81:9

complied 169:6

comply 92:18

186:7,8

complying 225:3

component 107:2

comprehensive

24:21

compressor 127:14

204:14

compromised

31:13

conceive 148:16
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 250

concept 72:5

122:20 147:15

174:5 241:16,20

242:3

conceptually

235:20 236:4

concern 34:14

74:12 107:22

108:17 109:14

113:8 185:13

234:18

concerned 26:21

30:14 43:16 52:9

52:14 79:6 97:5

112:18 114:12

124:4 125:13

135:1 141:9 149:5

149:7 162:19

175:3 186:8 223:4

223:5 235:6 236:3

concerning 97:2

concerns 24:11

63:21 64:4 100:15

113:18 138:8

174:10 196:14

concise 14:12 17:19

concluded 244:13

concludes 35:8

conclusions 136:22

144:22

condensate 118:13

188:17

condensing 144:16

conditional 178:3

conditioner 120:11

conditioning 9:6

30:22 101:17

106:1

conditions 25:20

27:12 43:22 49:14

50:6,8 51:21

73:13 74:14 76:6

92:14 112:5

118:20 119:7

120:19 167:11

condos 118:7

conduct 13:22

conducting 96:22

confidence 104:18

confident 206:5,16

confines 57:2

conflict 123:2

conform 17:7

confused 170:7

Congress 223:15

224:5

connect 119:9

210:9

connected 1:3 6:7

99:13 120:10

connecting 120:7

207:2 208:1

connection 179:10

209:14,16,20

connects 167:10

Connett 3:2 4:17

8:4,4 83:4,5,5

170:6 172:20

175:14,14 176:19

193:18

consensus 50:12

consent 212:22

consequence

226:19

consequences

21:20 29:1 42:17

226:15 230:5,12

Conservation

150:18

consider 16:5 33:7

34:20 53:8,8

65:13 68:1 78:8

89:13 106:22

114:21 152:14

202:16 226:19

considerable 69:2

113:5

consideration

13:21 40:6 73:6

90:16 114:22

175:11

considerations

72:10

considered 33:18

123:5 128:5

145:22 155:17,18

156:2 199:19

considering 90:19

121:5 152:16

174:3

considers 45:6 59:1

consistency 151:3

152:3

consistent 25:21

150:16,21 209:21

constant 112:21

constrained 91:6

constraints 93:20

constructed 31:5

construction 33:3

33:21 97:10

124:18

constructs 24:1

Consulting 2:6 3:4

9:20 10:2

consumed 33:8

140:7

consumer 34:11

41:15,18 42:5

65:8 73:20 75:5

89:17 97:6,13

101:21 109:6

112:14 115:12

118:5 124:7,9

138:11,22 140:12

140:14 146:2,9

179:21 190:6

197:21 212:5,5

213:1,16 221:1,3

223:7

consumers 26:1

28:5 35:19 40:19

46:9 53:5 54:22

72:16 75:7 76:8

80:8 86:5 97:3

98:10 99:2 101:5

110:16 111:7,12

113:2 114:14

129:21 133:17,20

138:16,19 139:1

179:3 184:5

206:10 239:22

consumer's 75:21

consumer-owned

97:4

consuming 105:17

consumption 89:21

141:16

contact 157:22

160:21

contain 146:4

Contemplating

33:6

contemporary

199:13

content 152:10

contention 187:3

215:16

contentions 185:21

CONTENTS 4:1

context 17:15

195:13 223:15

continuation 105:6

continue 44:6 45:4

50:4 72:1,17 78:5

78:11,15 89:11

102:9 106:9 107:1

107:3 189:12,16

continued 44:7

61:10 69:11 73:11

82:4 112:18 119:6

continues 32:9

continuous 166:8

contractor 39:6

contractors 57:13

61:6 81:20 82:12

82:17

contrast 225:16

contribute 123:17

contribution 46:10

control 27:19 28:6

30:21 31:12,17

32:6,12 33:12

35:22 40:3 44:15

45:2 50:13,16,21

51:7,9,12,15

55:21 56:18,20

57:17 58:2,4,7

60:11 61:12,21

62:1,10 67:1 72:8

72:16,19 77:4,7

81:5,8,12,15 82:8

85:22 86:21 87:1

87:6,7 88:2,3,7

95:1 98:6,14,21

101:10,12,14

105:20,22 107:14

108:1,4,6,8,11,13

108:21 109:1,9

110:3 112:4

113:11 116:12,14

118:17 119:22

120:3,9,12 147:21

154:17 157:3

169:2,4 187:7,8

192:12,14 197:4

205:2,6 206:12

208:1,14 210:3

212:12,14 214:21

219:12,14 220:9

220:21 221:7,8,10

225:5

controllable 22:12

controlled 38:5

41:10,20,22 50:20

55:17 95:7 110:3

116:5 130:8

140:21 149:19

207:17 218:18

225:9

controller 148:2,12

149:10 164:21

172:5 201:19,22

203:13,17,21

204:1 205:9,21

221:19,21

controllers 210:8

220:3 222:5

233:19

controlling 42:9

55:9 76:12 116:3

166:22 167:3

215:15 221:8

controls 67:5 80:6

101:15 130:2
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 251

131:2 136:10

145:19 149:2

199:10 221:4

convenience 190:6

conversation 15:9

29:18

conversations 14:9

Conversely 42:15

convince 196:20

Conway 10:18 79:1

cooling 38:13

127:17

cooperate 16:15

cooperating 203:7

cooperation 49:21

57:10 61:5 81:19

cooperative 2:1,5,7

2:8,9,10,11,16,17

2:18,19,20,22 3:2

3:8,9 4:8,9,11,12

4:14,15,16,19,20

4:21 5:1,2 7:6,20

8:3,15 10:6,11,13

10:16,18,21 11:12

11:14,22 30:3,6

35:16 41:13,20

42:17 48:15,21

49:2,4 53:19

54:18 55:8 56:7

56:10 57:11 58:3

59:16 62:7 63:12

70:22 71:2 76:21

77:2,13 79:1,5

80:5,9 83:7 94:11

94:12 96:7 99:17

99:18 102:16,17

103:4 107:9

111:10 115:9

116:16 118:22

121:13 125:8,10

125:19 126:15

188:8

cooperatives 2:4

4:10 8:19 11:15

12:1 30:8 35:20

36:3 45:14,21

46:6 48:18 49:9

55:10 57:16 59:18

60:4 61:19 63:2

63:13,21 64:7

65:13 71:3,4,5,16

72:7 73:21 83:8

88:16 94:14 96:9

99:22 125:13

168:17 179:2

209:10 210:7

211:18 212:15

243:2,5

Cooperative's 55:5

55:15,20 56:2

58:2,15 59:4

77:10

coordinate 101:7

coordinated 50:10

73:15 86:19

coordination

113:13

COP 127:10 128:6

core 177:10

corporate 200:19

Corporation 2:7,12

2:14 3:1 4:13,13

5:3 7:9 11:4,7

63:11 66:10,11

129:13

correct 28:22 196:1

corrective 241:11

correctly 29:15

168:1

corresponds

202:21

cost 22:7 33:18

36:12 37:17,22

38:22 39:19 42:13

42:18 46:1 52:8

58:4,9,10,16,18

60:6 70:1,8,12,12

73:19 74:8 77:11

86:1,7 88:19 97:6

98:11 102:4 103:4

106:20 107:18

116:9 117:3 121:3

121:4 126:10

129:19 130:20

142:3 179:21

182:15 196:14

204:2

costly 107:20

134:10

costs 30:17 36:2,20

41:13,16 42:8

43:4,8 45:20 53:3

56:3,9 60:16

90:13 101:21

103:10 116:8

126:3,17 128:11

cost-effective 19:17

Council 3:6 4:18

9:2,4 89:4

counsel 6:21 8:17

9:12 45:12 146:14

177:8

Counsel's 9:9

counterparts 188:5

counterpoint 14:19

counterproductive

76:7 224:14

counting 98:11

country 67:20

83:16 115:13

137:17 139:2

234:5 235:22

237:17

County 2:17 4:22

10:6 110:21 111:9

111:14,20 114:20

couple 28:1 63:20

64:6 66:19 68:5

114:6 139:10

141:2 158:13

175:16 214:18

224:2

coupled 109:21

course 36:4 42:4

83:20 97:21

132:21 140:15

141:8 150:19

191:2 195:18

courtesies 14:2

cover 242:14

covered 231:12

242:14,18

Covington 8:21

94:11

co-efficiency

127:10,22

co-op 8:21 35:18

40:13 42:13 54:20

101:7 116:10

119:12 147:5

170:17 229:5

co-ops 41:9 50:21

61:11,20 86:20,22

93:6 101:3 117:8

128:16 195:22

Co-op's 115:11

Craig 2:8 11:1

172:18

Crawford 54:19

crazy 87:19 175:17

create 42:16 43:3

44:10 124:1

created 32:2

creates 73:9 109:18

creating 122:18

135:13 175:21

214:22 215:16

credit 76:9

Creek 7:20 102:18

criteria 236:18

critical 20:22 52:19

90:4 96:20 130:7

131:9 133:12

186:4

Crosse 10:9 107:10

187:2

cuff 159:2,3

cumbersome 110:7

cumulatively 48:17

cure 24:11

curious 158:18

current 34:7 47:3

106:10 172:8

currently 29:9

70:10 77:7,16

105:4,11 108:4

116:10 118:8

120:4 121:14

128:18 155:19

curves 231:2

cushion 232:14

customer 51:3

122:11 124:2

125:3 196:6 205:5

237:18

customers 19:22

31:9,18 32:6,16

46:2 122:14

124:13 196:4

customer-driven

20:3

customized 58:7

cutting-edge

124:20

cycled 112:10

Cymbalsky 1:14

4:3 9:16,16 12:22

15:13,15,16 17:21

147:8 206:19,20

213:10 216:9

229:10,14 230:15

230:15 236:6,8

240:15 243:20,21

D

daily 181:9 191:9

dairy 37:7,11 75:16

Dairyland 2:22

4:21 10:9 107:9

108:16 187:2

193:19 220:17

Dakota 7:10 10:7

10:22 96:8,10

110:22 111:11

129:13

Darlington 2:6

9:19,19

data 26:20 27:3,22

52:1 67:12 90:1

96:1 109:20,22

134:4 136:3,13,19

144:1 180:12

185:21 191:7,12

191:15,17,18,22

195:3,8,9 228:10
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 252

244:3

date 18:8 64:15

145:8 147:16

163:6 175:4,10

224:13 239:1

Dave 2:9 4:20 7:19

102:12,14

David 2:16,19 4:7

8:13 12:3 29:20

30:1

day 13:16 32:9 39:7

86:3 112:12

135:20 139:8

141:1,1,8,17

153:5 191:3

197:12 216:19

days 41:12 52:4

206:22 211:13

216:6,8,21

day-to-day 54:22

de 47:4

deadline 198:17,19

226:13

deal 142:12 235:22

dealing 174:18

180:21 209:6

219:16

dealt 147:2 178:7

decade 146:16

decades 60:14

December 197:11

decide 44:14 64:12

216:4

decided 156:3

decides 216:5

decision 75:22

113:1 120:21

156:12

decrease 241:3

decreases 42:7

117:2

decreasing 42:1

dedicated 124:22

dedication 121:17

deep 83:14

defeat 22:20

148:19 149:9

Defense 3:5 4:17

9:2 89:4

defer 191:19

deferral 71:20

defers 33:21

define 92:1,5

definite 175:8

definitely 171:4

definition 205:12

243:7

definitions 237:2

defray 102:3

degree 90:2 128:3

145:13

degrees 145:13,15

146:4

Delaware 4:10 8:18

45:13 53:12

168:16 211:18

deliver 90:18 98:13

delivered 190:3

237:19

delivering 91:10

146:7 191:17

delivers 94:6

192:18

delivery 147:21

demand 8:6 20:7

20:11 23:6 28:16

33:11,12 36:2

37:18 38:1,6,16

38:20 39:8 41:1

41:12 42:1,6,12

42:15,20 45:5,17

46:3,7,15 47:7,22

48:3 49:12 52:19

55:16 56:9,16,17

56:20 57:6 58:9

58:18 59:4,20

63:22 64:11 65:4

65:4 76:14 77:9

79:21 80:3 83:6

85:4 88:11 98:4

102:10 111:1,17

111:22 114:2,16

116:3,8,16 117:1

117:9 118:4

119:18 123:15

130:3,11 131:6

132:2 138:5

141:12 143:5

157:18 161:8

164:15 181:14

198:1 209:21

213:19 216:14

223:17,19 224:18

226:16 227:2

236:1

demands 20:4

demand-side 19:20

19:22 20:6,20

21:8 23:22 188:10

demographic

138:16

demonstrate 68:13

69:5 152:2 177:20

demonstrated

133:5 149:18,19

152:4

demonstrates

136:19

demonstrating

131:11

demonstration

19:8

demonstrations

69:3

Dennis 2:6 11:16

11:16

Department 1:1,12

1:13,13,14 6:5,10

9:9 14:20 15:4,21

16:5 18:9,10 19:7

24:9,14 29:11

30:15 34:18 69:7

99:17 111:5

112:16 146:15

150:15 151:21

155:6 156:16

157:12,14 161:8

162:9 164:8 165:4

171:1 202:16

213:17 223:19,22

224:5,15 239:10

240:14,19 242:14

243:18

Department's

21:14 24:4

depending 51:9

deployable 22:8

deployment 22:11

23:10 24:5 70:9

Depot 82:13 171:22

213:16 220:6

223:5 237:16

Depots 171:20

deprive 22:10

Derril 2:10 11:9

describe 68:16

described 194:3

199:2

description 205:1,6

234:1

design 53:1

designed 23:1

90:17 186:16

designing 23:21

92:22

desire 24:5

despite 136:1

203:14

detail 13:7

detailed 24:17

36:17 109:16

details 13:11,19

154:10

determine 110:1

203:22

determining

122:13

detrimental 105:6

develop 66:3 85:6

105:5 130:15

developed 57:21

61:15 73:19

developing 143:14

206:2

development 8:2

22:17 35:15 49:19

53:18 57:7 70:4

119:1 131:1

148:21 193:3

208:5

deviation 173:18

device 27:19,20

40:3 41:22 51:13

56:20 62:11 67:1

70:13 81:12,15

88:3 108:1 113:11

116:15 120:9,13

146:5 157:3

200:10 205:2,6

207:2 214:21

215:12 216:7

219:14 220:6

devices 28:6 42:16

44:15 50:13,16

51:7,9,15 61:21

62:1 74:6 77:4

81:8 89:17 92:18

108:4 119:22

120:3,6 127:11

128:15,17,18

133:10 134:21

192:14 206:12

210:9 212:12

216:18 218:16

219:12

devised 232:1

Dickinson 7:9

129:13

dictate 75:21

difference 33:1

117:17 126:16

138:21 139:21,22

140:5

differences 123:18

183:19

different 27:17,21

33:15 51:14 81:14

82:7 87:14 95:16

120:2,5,12 124:14

128:17 142:18

143:16,18 154:17

155:11 176:8,16

178:8 179:17

183:20,21 196:9

202:15 220:20
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 253

235:4 236:2

237:19 240:8

differentiated

202:6

differentiation

165:11 202:17

differing 183:18

difficult 113:1,14

127:4 167:3

203:22

difficulty 122:16

digress 146:11

dimensions 119:16

diminishes 33:20

dioxide 204:12

direct 42:18 98:6

116:14 191:13

243:14

direction 206:13

directly 20:1 24:1

41:19,21 55:17

56:4 66:18 67:13

120:8 210:9

directly-controlled

42:2

Director 8:6,8,10

8:14 30:1 83:6

directors 57:13

61:6

discharges 86:3

discontinue 182:16

discrepancy 241:7

241:8

discuss 53:13 89:7

188:19

discussed 233:16

241:14

discussing 90:5

137:8 239:13

discussion 5:7

13:14 85:17

146:10 154:11,13

157:9,11 182:20

201:11 214:19

217:5

discussions 219:11

disease 24:12

disparate 136:12

disregard 182:9

distinct 108:4

distinction 199:3

224:8

distinguish 164:19

165:5,20 201:14

distribute 217:8

distributed 70:9

distribution 30:8

35:16 49:8 50:10

50:20,22 57:17,20

61:12 73:16 81:6

83:8 86:19 88:8

88:16 96:8,22

99:21 101:3

102:17 111:10

122:11 149:2

151:8,11 160:1

171:17 172:1,10

208:13 234:3

distributor 235:18

distributors 192:11

234:5 235:16

237:14,16

District 19:13

diverse 64:18

diversity 50:16

63:18 212:12

docket 18:12 24:17

173:2 244:6

document 59:10

173:19 218:19

documented

147:13 189:3,7

242:10

DOE 5:6 9:13,15

9:18 15:16 24:19

25:15 34:14,20

35:9 40:17,20

45:5 46:6 52:5

53:8 58:11 59:1

59:21 60:22 66:19

67:8,13 68:9

71:21 78:6,8

79:16 86:10,13

87:10 90:9 91:11

92:1,8,15 93:1

100:12 106:22

110:13 117:10

118:17 119:21

123:7 125:11

129:4 131:19

135:22 136:14

144:11 146:12,16

151:7,18 155:13

155:15,17 156:18

156:19 158:5,15

159:2 160:3

163:12 168:8

170:22 175:19,22

176:12 177:7

184:21 185:4,6

228:6 230:4,16

232:22 233:5

241:17

DOE's 60:19 89:7

90:16 91:3 100:9

106:6 150:14

201:11

doing 85:5 94:22

97:7 171:10 185:7

200:21 203:10

208:16 225:21

234:12

dollar 49:7

dollars 48:19 95:5

184:7

Don 2:7 11:6 12:10

66:6 219:5,7

242:1

DONALD 2:4

door 13:12 135:3

239:18

dotted 170:3

doubling 69:9

doubt 112:21

Doug 1:9,12 2:20

4:2,15 6:12 10:12

15:15 19:3 76:16

76:18 89:2 144:10

243:21

dozens 67:7

DR 165:6,7 201:15

202:7,9 236:17

237:2 244:8

drain 118:13

draining 188:18

dramatically 139:9

drawing 32:2

drive 124:14

driven 79:11 142:6

143:6

drives 76:3

driving 75:1

drop 187:14

dropped 106:18

drove 142:6

DRs 236:15

dual 127:1

due 42:20 43:7 53:2

118:18 119:17

127:1 208:4

duplication 101:19

duration 43:20

49:13 109:15

118:19

durations 112:4

D.C 1:9 6:11

209:14

E

Earl 3:3 5:3 6:20

132:5 137:10

181:6 184:17

198:21 238:3

earlier 21:15 74:18

75:16 76:1 82:21

86:18 93:18

113:19 133:19

189:21 219:17

early 17:14 31:1

47:20 144:12

earth 12:6 169:14

EarthJustice 2:2

5:5

ease 105:14

easier 14:1 207:11

214:14

easily 22:8 186:11

East 2:11 4:19

10:20 96:6,21

99:16

eastern 96:10

easy 25:10,14 81:10

81:11 148:15

Eau 2:9 4:20 7:19

102:16

echo 182:21 188:4

echoes 82:20

economic 90:20

92:10 93:3 110:15

149:13 150:2

208:17 225:6

economical 109:13

economically

113:22 114:10

118:3 145:5

economics 89:19

Economy 9:4

Ed 8:20 94:8,10

Eddie 2:20 3:8 5:2

10:10 125:5,7

Edison 2:21 12:13

158:13 215:20

234:16

Edward 3:6 4:18

Edwards 25:9

EEI 241:14,14

EF 38:18,20 74:2

effect 66:4 95:3

97:3 116:1 135:9

135:12 213:6

effective 39:19

56:15 58:4,7 60:6

60:15 65:10,22

70:9 73:19 74:9

91:21 92:3 106:21

111:2,7 114:2

135:5 175:5

192:12 243:14

effectively 37:9

42:10 43:18 49:11

57:5 65:15 73:8

73:10 112:10

117:10 129:18

133:10 135:3,17

146:17 187:11,17
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 254

190:18 195:7

199:9

effects 51:22

efficiencies 34:12

183:21

efficiency 8:11

19:10 21:14,17,21

22:9 29:7 34:13

34:15 40:22 41:7

43:5,20 46:11,14

46:19,22 48:1

57:6 66:12 74:1

79:18 81:2 90:8

91:9 92:19 97:9

116:2 117:12

121:17,19 123:16

123:18 124:17

127:9 128:6

154:22 162:22

163:1,2,4,11

177:11 179:8,17

180:14 181:9

183:11 184:13

efficient 9:4 20:22

29:6 33:15 39:18

46:20 60:6 90:6

118:3 123:22

133:16 176:15

179:4,15 181:10

183:6

effort 28:22 29:18

47:15 71:17 80:9

115:18 136:3

efforts 48:2 55:5

57:7 95:12 206:15

223:14

EIA 24:7 67:9

128:14 157:5

240:17 241:1,17

241:19

eight 54:8 84:5

193:22 194:9

eight-hour 84:2

195:5,7

either 83:12 134:9

160:12 223:2,10

229:16

electric 1:4 2:1,3,5

2:8,10,10,11,12

2:16,17,18,19,20

2:20,21 3:2,3,8

4:7,9,10,11,12,14

4:15,16,19,22,23

5:2,3,4 6:7 7:6

8:2,14,18,21 10:6

10:13,16,18,21

11:12,14,15,22

12:1,13,17 20:1

21:18 28:14 29:6

30:2,7,21 31:6

35:20 40:13,19

41:4,9,10,17,18

41:20 45:13 46:8

49:8 52:3 53:19

54:18 55:3,9,13

55:15 59:15,18

60:1,4 62:17

63:13 66:13,13

67:22 68:18 69:4

69:10,12,19 70:5

70:7,22 71:1,3

76:9,20 77:2,3,13

79:1,20 80:2,20

82:20 83:1,20

85:18,19,20 88:17

89:8 94:11 96:7

96:19 97:19 99:2

99:6,16 101:6

103:8,10 107:19

110:21 111:3,9,10

111:14,20 114:15

114:20 115:9,11

115:17,20 116:5,6

116:10 117:7,14

117:15,18 118:16

120:2 121:12

123:19 125:8,10

125:14,19,22

127:7,8,12 128:2

129:5,15,22,22

130:16,21 131:5

137:3,13,15,20

139:16 141:6

144:14 155:3,19

156:1,21 157:15

158:13 159:22

168:16 182:9

183:14 188:8

189:4,18 190:16

190:21 191:8

192:7 194:11

200:22 215:20

218:2 225:2

234:16 243:5,7,9

Electrical 3:8

electricity 19:15,18

20:4 21:10 22:1

30:17 107:16

111:12 132:1

140:7 183:5

electronic 2:6 65:8

124:9

electronics 124:7

element 140:10

187:21 190:17,21

191:9 192:7,13

225:4

elements 183:18

195:3 204:13

elevators 152:22

eligible 159:6

eliminate 45:1

120:18 132:14

eliminated 87:18

106:15 126:21

eliminates 81:13

eliminating 125:14

embark 17:18

embrace 38:8 63:3

182:4,11

EMC 5:1 8:9,12

121:10,12 122:2,8

123:6,9

EMCs 64:7,8

EMC's 124:16

emergency 34:5

emerging 89:16

92:16 143:12

150:1

emissions 33:20

emphasize 46:17

98:16

emphasizing 189:2

empty 187:12

en 44:14

enable 135:9 240:8

enabled 87:13 88:6

198:15 199:1,2,4

199:5 234:2

enabling 69:11

encompass 135:14

encourage 14:17

65:18 102:2 157:9

encouraged 111:5

115:22

encourages 24:14

encouraging

177:14

ends 152:20

end-use 111:7

energies 99:19

energy 1:1,12,13

1:13,14 2:9 3:2,6

4:17,18,20 6:5,10

7:20 8:5,11,22 9:4

19:21 20:12,13,18

21:2,14 22:6,9

32:4,18 33:1,14

34:3,13,15 39:14

43:4 46:10,19,22

47:16 53:18 55:7

64:1 68:17 69:7

70:12 78:22 80:7

83:7,10 84:1,10

84:13,16,18,20,21

85:2,4,15 86:6,7,9

86:11 87:2 88:10

88:15 89:21 90:7

90:20 92:10 93:3

94:12,13 97:9

99:18 100:8

102:16 103:21

104:3,9 108:10

110:4 111:6

112:16 115:18

117:15,20 121:17

123:13,18 124:16

131:8 139:18

140:4,8 141:7,16

143:16 145:10

149:6,13 150:18

154:15 157:2

175:19 176:2,6,22

177:9,11,14

178:11 179:8

180:13 181:9

183:5 190:1,5,10

190:11,18 191:10

193:19,20 194:1

194:13,14,22

203:8 208:18

218:14,16

Energy's 9:9 30:15

enforce 98:18

enforcement 9:12

43:17 219:21

220:4 230:2,11,12

engage 154:13

157:11

engaged 191:14,21

193:2

engineering 32:20

54:17 79:8

England 23:15

enhance 108:9

enhancing 130:20

enjoy 171:9

enlighten 173:11

enrolled 77:22

ensure 19:16 21:9

23:2 51:12 62:10

84:6 106:8,19,22

149:3 217:11

ensuring 21:6

entertain 173:6

entertaining

170:19

entire 139:8

entirely 106:15

entities 28:16 29:10

entity 21:6 163:9

environment 25:14

50:3 141:14

207:19

environmental
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 255

21:11 89:20 90:20

92:11 93:4 117:4

150:3

environmentally

20:2

environmentally-...

45:22

environments

144:3

envisioned 73:16

EPCA 150:21

151:3 152:3

EPS 133:7

equates 42:3

equation 179:22

180:17

equipment 37:10

47:19,20 101:22

105:9,11,14

106:18,20 120:7

130:1 178:20

179:15

equivalent 140:4

equivalently

204:10

especially 20:12

74:16 151:21

152:9 153:9 183:2

212:4

essence 70:13

95:20

essential 46:5 78:4

96:20

essentially 154:21

173:22 174:9

175:5

establish 113:6

established 22:3

establishing 232:17

estimate 231:5

estimated 36:11

60:11 238:22

242:9

estimates 47:21

estimation 233:20

235:2

et 119:16

etcetera 200:19

ETS 138:6,20

139:15 154:5

186:20 189:19

191:4 225:1,8

228:4,8,12

evaluated 123:12

evaluating 203:8

evaluation 149:12

243:15 244:11

evening 112:11

eventually 167:1

evergreens 87:17

everybody 15:17

15:20 161:14

215:14

evidence 28:20

evisceration 239:18

evolution 69:11

149:20 222:8

evolved 21:21

ex 16:2

exact 191:15

197:18

exactly 50:3 164:7

216:11 231:22

examined 169:7

example 85:9

105:21 118:6

127:12 136:11

152:15 182:3

185:5 239:21

240:20

exceeds 125:2

exceptions 72:9

excess 70:12

excessively 43:7

exchange 57:1

executive 168:20

exist 73:17 199:15

existing 22:8 59:2

92:16 105:7

124:19 139:5

151:18 177:22

exists 135:7 185:21

190:11 193:4

expand 135:13

239:16

expanded 108:8

expansion 73:11

expect 57:20 61:14

104:14 143:7

192:1

expected 56:13

73:18

expeditiously

152:12

expense 106:4

188:20

expensive 34:9

101:22 105:17

112:1 194:10

214:6

experience 44:21

62:19 72:12

198:13 232:11

experiences 47:18

experiment 177:20

experimenting

69:20

expert 208:7

experts 35:4

explain 190:15

explained 164:12

explaining 154:4

explicitly 162:6

explore 90:17

exploring 23:16

exposure 137:16

express 196:14

212:22

extend 114:6

extended 72:15,18

extending 35:3

extensive 90:10

135:21

extent 48:13

133:21 134:2

150:2 151:21

186:10,13 239:8

extraordinary

224:11

extremely 71:9

97:2 133:16 224:6

229:22

exurban 49:2

eyes 18:14

F

face 6:19

facilitate 90:21

facilitator 1:10

123:7

facilities 97:11

fact 22:19 28:13,19

33:12 70:4 86:22

101:7 133:5,6

136:5,12 150:20

151:10 184:5

190:8 199:7

209:11 211:2

214:4 215:13

240:10 241:2

factor 90:7 103:11

103:21 123:13,15

173:4 175:20

176:3,22 190:19

191:10

factories 142:9

factors 123:17

179:8

factory 81:15 88:2

108:3 109:1 146:5

146:7

facts 22:3 183:1

fail 119:20

fails 224:14

fair 21:10 174:22

Fairfield 2:20 4:15

10:12 76:20 77:1

77:12

fairly 67:2 101:22

fall 7:20 102:18

232:8,8

familiar 162:22

families 43:7 75:12

126:6

family 75:11

fancy 17:3 85:15

far 49:19 64:20

83:13 90:6,6

114:18 133:18

136:13 147:13,14

162:17 194:9

223:3,4 224:15

Fargo 10:6 110:22

114:7,7 147:9,10

farm 83:16

farmers 37:7,11

farms 75:16

far-reaching 36:16

fast 56:19 108:11

131:12 204:13

208:16 209:7

faster 210:3

fastest 209:14

favor 179:4

fax 148:4

FCC 62:2

feasibility 114:9

155:5

feasible 106:3

118:16 203:9

feature 125:12

federal 242:5

feedback 200:7

feel 22:8 33:10 34:6

104:15 105:1

106:9 108:20

113:11 131:18

148:22 177:5

178:3 211:12

236:16

feet 62:15

felt 235:7

FERC 159:16

FERC-regulated

21:6

field 44:12 69:3

89:22 95:7

Fifty-two 37:20

figure 17:3 79:13

figures 149:9

fill 187:15 242:4

243:17 244:10

final 18:6 133:13

135:6,22 139:5

143:14 150:7
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 256

204:22 243:11

finally 33:22 52:14

151:15 178:8

finance 23:10

80:18

finances 79:7 80:17

financial 37:12

76:11 116:19

financing 80:15

find 27:3 34:21

97:1 104:5 184:4

184:10 196:4

208:11 218:5

234:5

finding 33:4 243:19

finish 154:7

first 15:16 17:20

19:1 21:22 26:19

31:5 40:15,16

64:2,7 66:18,21

76:5 91:5,22

107:22 132:8

139:13 141:21

144:11 145:1

156:15 157:13

160:10 161:21

162:16 164:3

168:11 185:1

188:1,8 191:22

192:4 201:3 203:4

203:4,14 205:17

208:2 211:9

213:11 214:18

230:12 233:16

242:20

fit 118:11 177:18

fits 95:18 193:11

227:2

fitting 100:8

five 17:4,11 26:11

27:2 29:14 44:20

48:8 51:20 60:12

63:4 68:8,10

72:22 73:15 79:9

82:7 94:18,19

104:13 106:14

113:17 120:18

128:17 131:20

180:8 214:10

222:4 229:15

241:10

five-year 40:5

87:17 110:9

128:10 129:2

fix 29:15

fixed 53:4 194:20

fixed-revenue 23:9

flexibility 51:14

62:11 69:22 81:14

120:12 156:5

171:3,9 172:5,11

173:9 182:22

197:19 226:21

227:3 231:8

233:13

flexible 34:10

130:8 180:7

207:21 229:11

231:19

flippant 230:16

floor 18:3 38:3

153:1,3 158:4

202:14

Florida 94:15

171:20

flow 164:9 165:9

fluctuate 107:19

Flynn 2:7 11:6,7

66:7

flywheel 69:21

focus 14:6 73:21,22

176:2 177:9 185:4

205:20

focused 14:15

142:13

focuses 64:2

focusing 180:15

folks 15:5 89:10

110:9 126:8

212:19 217:21

follow 14:18

190:15 191:6

192:20 194:17

207:13 224:22

234:17 235:5

followed 153:14

following 12:22

13:8,14 90:9

146:16 150:9,12

follows 5:7

follow-up 172:19

footprint 68:20

70:14

force 173:5 182:12

forced 43:1 235:8

forecasting 79:10

foregone 92:4

foreseeable 92:12

form 18:18 20:18

67:9 86:3 88:11

109:22 149:2

225:6 240:17

242:5 243:16

244:11

formal 18:8,14

forms 22:6 241:17

formula 81:22

Forrestal 6:11

152:19

forth 14:18 221:10

Forty-four 37:2

forum 35:10

forward 23:6,13,17

24:19 28:21 34:18

35:5 54:1 94:2

95:22 170:17

180:5,8 181:2

199:14 200:4

207:22 208:12,19

215:4 226:1

239:11

fossil 24:2

Foster 12:8,8,8

found 32:22 60:14

72:13,16 85:13

95:14 104:7 109:3

117:17,19 181:17

four 17:9,10,10,11

27:2 32:6 79:8

95:2,16 104:7

Fourth 92:22

fraction 31:21

130:20

frame 16:4 24:15

29:13,14 31:14

52:3 68:12 191:16

193:7

framed 155:2

frames 68:8

framework 22:3

29:3 178:1 180:7

Frank 2:22 9:5

162:14,15 164:5

164:11 167:7,8

171:13 211:16

214:15,17 219:17

226:7 228:1,2

232:2,3

frankly 34:6 73:1

74:18 76:3,6

179:1 180:3

185:15 199:18

230:9

fraught 239:12

free 36:9 51:20

52:22 80:15 177:5

freedom 52:15

148:15

frequency 62:2

87:3 176:5

frequently 31:18

72:18 82:5

Friday 1:6 6:9

front 16:22 26:12

fruit 70:6

frustrated 193:14

fuel 33:11 36:19,21

52:10,12 103:7

full 162:7 205:1

fully 58:5

function 33:11

56:19

fundamental 217:7

funds 240:4

further 89:13

123:12,14 164:20

Furthermore

116:22

future 20:4,10 21:1

22:21 47:12 49:19

56:6 61:16 78:16

109:7 128:22

155:5 181:4

184:10

G

gained 29:7

gallon 31:11 33:2

37:8,20 39:15,17

62:16 72:6 77:3

104:10 109:4

112:5 114:15

126:18 128:9

139:20

gallons 39:12 72:9

112:3 144:15

154:20 204:8

gaps 94:7

Gary 3:2 4:17 8:4

83:3,5 100:16

167:4 168:13

170:5 171:18

172:20 175:13,14

192:5 193:17

205:16

gas 33:20 36:19

71:14 99:5 103:7

107:17 114:4,5

127:14 144:14,16

gathered 242:6

GC 175:2

GC's 173:17

GE 2:3 3:5 6:21

11:18 62:18

gear 147:1

general 3:3 5:3,4

9:9,12 11:21

12:16 13:19 70:21

137:3 146:14

177:7 183:14

189:18

generally 33:10

61:12 72:4 75:8

75:20,22 145:15

generate 20:16
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 257

139:6

generating 97:11

98:12 102:4 134:1

138:6 191:15

generation 20:1,14

24:3 30:5 33:16

33:20,21 42:8,21

63:12 69:16 98:5

117:3 179:19

generations 82:8

222:5

generators 133:22

184:8

gentleman 17:10

168:12 178:21

182:22 183:14

222:17

Georgia 8:12 63:11

63:13,16 64:8

66:2 121:14

198:13

geothermal 127:13

127:15,16 179:9

179:12

Gerdeman 129:9

germane 189:16

getting 6:18 29:17

142:4 166:10,14

178:8 186:9 226:4

230:7 234:12

Gil 53:17

give 27:6 44:2 45:3

49:17 52:1 78:11

104:18 112:13

118:21 154:14

170:22 182:3

194:6 218:12

229:7 231:8

232:13 233:5

241:17

given 15:17 32:18

48:10 68:11 93:6

108:14 137:22

152:9 162:1

164:17 165:5

167:10 169:20

173:2 181:16

202:9,10 206:11

226:21 232:7

gives 77:21 147:19

148:15

giving 76:22 96:13

184:14 229:17

glad 6:13 12:19

15:3 34:1 189:8

Glasgow 140:20

Glazer 2:8 11:1,2

172:17,19 174:2

174:15 175:12

Glover 2:8 4:9

10:15,15 40:8,10

40:11 82:21

go 14:18 16:20 18:1

64:3 80:16 115:17

148:19 152:22

154:3,10 157:6

160:9 161:10,13

171:17 179:1

188:1 190:13

191:5 192:20

195:20 196:6,9

198:3 200:3

206:22 208:21

211:16 220:3

221:15 222:10

224:15 226:9

228:15 232:2

237:11 239:11

240:22 242:19

goal 19:8 97:12

128:1 195:21

206:9 222:11

226:17 239:3

goals 60:9 224:15

goes 197:19 205:2

207:22 214:4

215:4 219:16

going 12:20,22

13:11 15:11 16:12

17:5 30:15 75:14

75:21 82:3 87:7

89:1 91:2 126:9

141:3 144:6,7,8

145:22 149:3

150:11 151:22

152:21 153:13,20

154:1,2,6,12

157:6,8 158:3,7

165:6 167:2

168:19 169:21

170:2,10,19

171:12,19 172:8,9

174:8 176:14,15

180:5 191:19

192:4,17,18

194:12 197:18

198:12 199:14

200:3 202:13

206:8 207:13

208:12,19,22

215:8,12 216:14

218:12 221:6

226:1,19 227:7,9

227:17,21,22

228:5,13,22 229:4

229:9 230:8 231:1

231:9,13 232:16

232:21 233:4,5,7

233:21,22 234:2

234:19 236:10

237:13 239:4

240:2

going-in 201:21

good 6:4,20 8:16

11:3,6,9 19:5 24:7

29:22 40:10 45:10

59:8 66:8 70:20

114:10 115:3

116:12 122:16

129:10 132:7

137:2 147:17

153:5 197:7

201:10 210:11

217:20 219:1

220:4,10 228:16

236:10 244:3

gotten 14:9 124:8

171:14 227:18

238:20

governing 151:1

Government 25:15

Governmental

40:12

go-no 208:21

grant 150:15 151:7

granted 135:2

163:17 168:1

169:1

granting 22:15

136:15

grants 156:19

granular 230:8

graph 141:18

GRAUL 15:1

Graves 2:9 4:20

7:19,19 102:13,14

102:15

GRE 83:21

great 3:2 4:17 8:5

19:2 52:8 83:6,10

84:10,18 86:6

87:2 88:15,19

96:11 97:3 98:20

121:4 131:12

133:9 175:15

192:2 193:19

197:10 235:22

237:8

greater 32:18 69:5

72:5 154:20

greatly 23:7 155:4

164:6

Green 8:12

greenhouse 33:20

Greetings 96:11

grew 148:2

grid 1:3 6:6 19:9

22:5 34:4 45:20

65:4,4 67:12

68:13 70:7 85:19

87:12 88:6 89:16

90:18 91:11 92:3

92:17 99:13,15

108:7 122:19

123:4,9,10,16

124:11 130:18

131:5,7 132:2

145:1 146:1

149:21 174:6

175:21 176:13,15

177:1 180:1 182:4

198:15 199:1,2,4

203:6 204:17

207:3 208:14,20

grid-enabled 40:1

142:5 171:15

175:21

grid-interactive

69:3,12 87:21

130:15 131:4

172:22

ground 153:1,2

group 64:17 139:12

Grove 8:5

grow 95:8 231:1,1

231:13

growing 143:12

234:6

grown 20:8

grows 185:7,10

growth 20:5

guess 15:19 67:17

94:17 136:7

166:18 185:13

202:17 217:1

228:3,9 232:14

240:18 241:22

guessing 160:6

guys 147:6 154:4

155:2 171:3

235:17

G&T 83:7

G.E 132:11 170:2,3

187:3,7 192:11

195:12 196:12

197:4 199:2 200:8

214:5 235:14

H

half 63:14 95:5

97:15 116:13

138:4 140:9

hall 152:21

halt 73:11

hand 15:7 115:17
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 258

115:18 149:5

220:7

handbook 214:10

handful 243:5

handle 42:12,22

60:22 160:4

hands 220:1

hang 153:1 157:20

hanging 70:6

happen 64:14,21

65:17 196:6

226:20

happened 142:21

241:19 243:15

happening 186:12

happens 57:2 65:20

75:6

happy 182:19

196:7 211:19

hard 15:4 25:17

45:21 130:15

148:4 149:17

208:8

harder 105:16

hardship 92:2

151:8,9,10 152:3

hardware 61:18

82:14,17 219:13

Harshal 217:18,21

Harvey 3:5 5:4 9:3

144:8,11 162:13

177:2,4,5 182:21

202:19 206:13

207:12 209:2

211:9 221:15,17

235:11 236:9

Harvey's 205:19

206:21 220:17

hate 182:14

head 204:16 206:13

headed 48:11 206:1

headquartered

30:3 54:19 115:10

121:13

headquarters

102:18

hear 34:1 59:21

89:1 167:19

183:15,22 185:14

212:4 217:21

218:4,7

heard 54:3 66:1

67:2 86:18 87:1

87:14 132:11,22

134:8 136:13

137:13 138:3

143:21 152:10

154:16 169:8,10

171:4 184:6 185:2

188:4 195:12,22

196:14 197:1

201:10 202:14

215:13 222:3

232:4

hearing 71:8 84:11

91:5 173:8,20

174:15,20

heat 37:21 38:8,19

39:2,3,6,13,14

43:11,11 56:18,21

57:1 62:13,18

68:18 84:4 101:17

109:9,12 114:9

116:7 118:1,2,11

123:20 127:4

132:21 133:1,14

136:9 137:7

138:19 139:4,15

140:2,8 141:15

142:1 143:2 144:2

144:17 145:7

149:22 154:5,21

155:21 181:13,20

182:11 183:12

187:4,18 188:9,11

188:15 189:11,11

189:22 190:2,17

191:8 192:9

193:11 194:2,4,5

194:5,7,19 195:2

195:4 196:15,16

196:18 198:15

225:2

heated 39:12

heater 22:13 31:3

36:9 37:3,6 38:19

39:2 41:5 43:13

47:9 51:4 55:15

55:21 56:22 57:22

58:2,4 59:20 60:8

61:8 62:14,16,18

67:12,19,22 72:8

76:2,4 77:16 78:2

80:17,20 81:1

82:9 85:19 86:20

87:13,14,20,21

88:4 101:18 103:1

104:11,15,19,21

105:9 106:1,3

108:2 109:4,10,17

114:1,15 116:22

119:19 120:7,8

122:9,19 123:19

123:20 124:6,11

125:15 126:4,12

126:19 127:5,8,12

127:21 128:2,20

129:6 130:2 136:9

137:7 140:3 145:2

145:3 154:17

171:15 176:3

181:20 182:2,6,12

187:4,18 188:15

188:16 189:6

191:8 193:11

194:7,8,12 197:4

198:15 202:1

203:22 204:19,20

205:4,10 208:21

210:14 215:1,9

218:22 222:3

223:7

heaters 1:4 6:8

20:21 21:8,19,22

22:18,21 26:2

27:13,16 28:4,18

29:8 31:7 32:11

32:11 34:3 36:1

37:16,21 38:2,9

39:4,22 41:1,11

41:18 42:2,10

43:2 44:5 45:18

46:4,9,15,20,21

47:13 48:5,9

51:12 52:7,18,22

55:4,10,17 56:15

56:18 57:18 58:14

59:3 61:13,17

62:5,10,13 65:4,5

66:13 68:18,19

70:8 71:8,12,17

72:2,6 74:15 75:2

75:6 77:4,8,19

78:4 79:21 81:11

82:1 83:2,21 84:4

86:14 87:6,22

88:5,18 89:9 90:5

90:8 96:20 97:19

98:7 99:3,6,14

100:7,14 101:1,2

103:9,11,14,18,20

104:4,10,18 106:8

107:1,13 108:5,18

108:21 109:12

110:2,5,15 111:3

112:3,8 114:4,10

114:18 115:17,21

116:3,6,11 117:14

117:18 118:2,2,9

118:11,16 119:4

119:10,18 121:2

122:15 126:1,9,14

128:5,9,20 130:6

130:10,16,17

131:3,4,21 132:22

133:1,14 137:21

138:3,5 140:8

142:2 144:17

145:18 149:22

150:4 154:5,20

155:4,20 156:1,21

157:16 170:10,11

172:22 178:10

179:7,10 180:3

182:10 183:12

185:19 187:6,8,9

187:14 188:9,11

189:5 192:9

193:22 207:9

217:9 218:11,17

225:3 227:13

228:6,14 231:4,16

234:12 242:11

heating 3:1 9:6

30:22 32:3 33:13

38:5 56:17 64:17

68:14,21 69:4,10

69:13 80:6 86:12

87:12 107:20,21

111:21 121:11

123:10 125:1

127:7,17 130:1

137:13,15 139:5

139:16

heating/cooling

127:13

heavily 63:3 79:13

131:1

Height 38:11

Hello 110:20

help 16:4 29:4

85:14 129:16,17

134:16 157:11

198:20 214:22

217:14 222:6

helped 121:19

156:11

helpful 14:15 18:13

93:16 153:20

227:5 234:9,10

helps 102:3 107:14

hey 159:21 231:9

Hi 107:8 153:22

high 59:11 60:15

62:1 66:12 103:21

209:11,19 231:11

higher 36:19 37:17

42:20 43:3,8

103:10 104:9,19

122:4

highest 41:13 58:8

highlight 138:13

242:22

highlighted 142:14

143:4
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 259

highly 58:6 130:10

high-low 42:1

high-speed 200:11

209:16 210:5

high-temperature

147:18

Hinson 2:10 4:16

10:17,17 78:19,20

78:21

hippopotamus

178:12

historical 79:11

history 13:13 30:20

35:22 111:13

hit 59:10 227:10,14

hoc 234:11

Hofman 4:6 7:2

25:3 28:11,11

182:19 213:4

HOFMANN 3:7

7:2

hold 30:17 124:8

236:15

holding 166:13

Holly 2:10 11:9,10

Holt 2:11 4:19

10:20,20 96:4,5,6

home 38:7 39:8

43:6,12 82:13

84:6 87:6 104:6

105:14,16,21

109:3 124:19,20

126:9 141:17

142:18 171:20,22

185:5 210:8 212:6

213:16,21 220:6

220:20 223:5

237:16

homeowner 203:20

216:3,5,7,20

homeowners

182:14 215:22

homes 38:4,12

43:10,15 48:14

104:5 118:7

125:20 126:21

127:2,3 136:8

138:19 141:5,14

179:12

honest 88:11

Honeywell 87:5

hook 28:6

hooked 74:3

hope 29:18 45:5

53:7 58:22 78:10

78:14 106:11

114:3 132:8 150:5

186:14 189:11

239:10 240:8

hoped 31:21

hopeful 114:8

hopefully 16:18

106:14 154:2,7

hopes 161:9

hoping 100:16

189:15

horizon 25:20 27:9

horizons 23:19

Horry 2:10 4:16

10:18 79:1 80:2

82:20

hosting 40:16

hot 31:16,18 32:7

33:7,8 72:15,18

75:15,18 84:6

86:4,6 127:14,15

145:16 187:20

194:5,21 216:8,20

hour 34:8 181:11

191:2

hours 32:6 39:13

83:11 84:5,7 85:3

86:2 147:20

193:22 194:1,9

204:9

house 37:8 101:16

148:3 213:18

216:1,13

household 181:19

housing 229:6

HOUSTON 2:12

huge 241:7

hundred 235:15

hundreds 129:15

184:6

Hybrid 127:7

hydro 20:20

hydroelectric

100:3

Hyland 2:13 12:4,4

25:2

H2O 80:14

I

idea 95:18 173:13

180:20 213:5,14

215:11,20 220:18

221:8

ideally 52:21

ideas 123:8

identifies 215:9

identify 197:16

215:6

identifying 225:7

ignition 207:1

ignorant 210:19

illegal 217:8 223:1

Illinois 4:12 11:14

59:16,18 60:7,10

60:18 61:1,21

62:7 63:2

illustrates 109:11

immediate 6:16

immediately 64:21

150:8

impact 21:11 24:1

37:12 52:15 53:14

67:16 71:22 79:19

117:4 120:22

138:11 139:3

235:3 243:4,8

impacted 47:2 63:3

impacting 155:4

impacts 36:16

40:21 41:6 45:3

46:13 68:1 90:21

92:11 93:4

implement 64:10

66:3 124:21

129:16

implementation

49:19 56:6 57:8

119:2

implementing

124:22

imply 89:21

importance 111:21

important 15:20

18:5 22:13 28:19

45:19 46:5 47:14

55:4,11 57:15

65:13 71:9 79:3

87:10 96:14 100:4

100:11 102:21

104:11 111:2

115:14 121:6

125:12 137:15

145:21 173:4

180:18 184:12

202:18 224:6

244:7

importantly 44:11

121:3

importation 157:4

imported 157:1

imposes 43:22

49:15

impossible 51:2

108:12

impractical 44:10

50:7 57:19 61:14

67:3 101:9 119:9

120:20

impressed 145:6

improve 19:9

243:19

improved 33:19

improvement 47:4

104:7 109:3

improvements

114:13

inadequacies

183:13

inappropriately

136:15

incentive 112:14

240:7

incentives 76:11

77:13 102:1

116:20 240:6

incentivize 112:2

incidence 114:3

incident 80:11,12

incidentally 31:19

include 36:17

119:21 158:8

238:17

included 51:15

120:13 158:2

202:5

includes 55:16,20

63:16 127:2

155:21

including 21:7

57:11 61:5 92:18

113:10 116:21

205:12

income 53:4,4

increase 37:22

42:20 56:13

101:21 182:15

241:3

increased 42:22

53:3 100:10

106:13 127:9

increasing 20:13

69:15 131:8

increasingly

186:12

incumbent 152:1

Independence 1:9

independent

194:21

indicate 134:8

indicates 90:22

indirect 42:18

indirectly 169:11

individual 44:16

48:14 50:14

133:20 151:4

152:2 169:16

185:6 238:10

individuals 13:5

14:16,17 16:22

17:2 168:11
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 260

242:16

inducement 18:21

industrial 111:17

industry 4:4 7:17

27:9,9 46:21

68:11 69:19 85:5

125:2 205:22

206:8 225:15

inequity 151:8,12

infancy 94:22

95:14

inform 156:12

157:12

information 24:8

26:2 88:10 92:6

109:16 124:6,8

155:7 156:8

157:22 158:6

160:21 166:11,12

222:2 232:5 239:6

242:7

infrastructure 58:6

209:9,12,22

212:17

initial 43:3 68:9

89:7 164:8 166:10

202:2

initially 139:17

166:16,19 171:1

ink 173:14

innovation 22:12

input 151:20

inputs 144:13

inserted 18:19

inside 105:16,18

146:15 192:1

195:7

insist 149:11

install 51:5 72:7

74:9 81:3 108:13

118:15 127:1

128:18 207:7

installation 36:20

39:8 48:22 58:10

77:3 101:14 105:8

106:17,21 109:1

112:2

installations 106:5

130:5

installed 43:12

51:13 55:22 60:12

67:1 74:11 81:12

81:16 82:9 88:3

99:9 101:12,18

106:20 108:2

120:6 157:3

159:13 226:4

229:1

installer 122:9

installing 47:19

72:13 113:10

Institute 2:21 9:7

12:13 158:13

215:20 218:3

234:16

integral 107:2

188:10

integrate 108:9

178:19

integrated 23:18

193:13 201:22

212:14

integrating 203:13

integration 21:1

51:1 130:19 131:7

intended 162:1

215:10 242:14

intending 92:2

intensive 85:6

intent 65:6 168:4

interaction 205:10

interactive 67:12

68:14 70:7 89:17

90:18 91:11 92:4

92:17 108:7

123:10 131:2

133:9 145:2 174:6

208:20

interconnection

4:5 7:15 11:2

205:13 209:17

Interconnection’s

19:6

interest 66:15

112:17 233:13

interested 22:6

91:12 155:11

176:19 179:3

198:14 209:6

230:6,7,10 235:17

243:18

interesting 124:12

184:15 212:3

215:21

Interestingly 187:6

interest-free

116:21

interface 65:9

131:3 148:7,13

203:16,18 204:5

205:21 207:21

208:6 214:21

218:11,14,21

220:19 221:4,20

222:2,7

interfaces 206:2

212:13

interior 118:9

intermittent 20:16

internet 199:10

200:2,11,12

209:18

interoperability

206:3

interrupt 216:10

inter-operability

206:15

intricate 186:16

intro 236:10

introduce 189:9

introduced 65:16

introduction 13:1

32:14

introductions 4:2

6:16

invest 104:19

invested 36:6 131:1

investment 36:14

44:7 50:5 61:10

73:4 82:4 119:6

126:19

investments 47:12

invitation 114:22

inviting 121:10

involve 72:9

involved 67:5

121:21 129:14

218:20 219:11

220:9 238:21

involves 85:7

in-home 220:21

in-the-pocket

140:13

iron 163:21

ISO 23:15

ISOs 130:13

issue 13:14 15:20

16:5 21:3 28:19

29:16 30:19 37:19

45:15 55:2 59:22

62:21 68:3,15

74:20 79:4 95:13

95:13 96:15 97:2

100:11 102:20

111:1 112:1

115:15 132:12,13

151:15 154:18

155:1 162:17

168:19 174:11

179:14 181:15

184:1,22 188:17

188:18 199:7

210:5 213:1 226:3

226:6 235:6,20

241:9

issues 18:4 43:6

63:20 66:19 121:6

133:1 155:8

188:14 207:16

215:22 220:2

242:17

item 148:14 209:5

items 68:6 96:15

J

J 7:4 115:3,7 188:3

188:7

Jack 14:22

Jackson 2:12 5:1

8:9 121:9,12

122:1,8 123:6,9

124:16

JAMES 3:2

Jamison 12:9

January 60:2

142:22 159:15

170:16

Jaramillo 53:17

Jaramillo's 54:6

Jay 2:18 4:6 5:9

7:11 25:5,6

160:16,17 171:11

193:17 195:10,20

198:18 201:9

205:17 207:15

208:22 210:11

212:10,10 213:14

222:14 226:17

233:11 234:17

237:11 242:19

Jay's 207:13

224:22

Jeff 2:21,22 4:13

4:21 8:10 10:8

63:7 107:7,8

187:1 193:18

220:16 226:10

jeopardy 48:8

Jeremy 2:17 4:22

10:5 110:18,21

Jersey 35:19 36:3

Jim 4:12 11:13

59:6,14

Jimmy 2:1 4:23 7:4

115:1,4,5,7 188:7

job 154:4 220:10

John 1:14 3:8 4:3

4:11 9:16 11:11

12:22 15:13,16

19:3 21:15 25:12

25:16 54:4,14,16

89:3 206:19 213:5

230:15 232:4

233:12 243:20

join 216:4,5
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 261

joining 15:3 178:1

joint 157:18

jointly 205:11

joists 38:3

Jones 3:3 5:3 6:20

6:21 132:5,7

149:15 184:17,18

196:13 198:22

237:1,4,8 238:1,4

238:13,19

judge 233:8

June 155:6 197:7

Justice 12:7

justified 91:1,2

justify 44:7 47:11

50:4 61:10 82:4

110:6 119:5

K

Karen 167:16,17

167:21

kBtu 204:9,16

keep 14:6,14 15:6

16:12 41:15 45:20

55:12 77:22 96:17

121:19 128:11

144:7 190:2 192:3

194:18 208:4,22

227:21 231:12

keeping 174:17

192:21 211:1

Keith 2:6 11:16

Kentucky 12:17

137:4 140:20,21

key 29:12 40:12

183:1 214:3

kilowatt 34:8 39:12

147:19 181:11

204:9

kilowatts 80:10,12

kind 44:13 71:12

98:18 131:15

135:2,17 136:3,11

158:18 166:9,12

166:19,20 167:1

198:17 199:15,22

200:2 210:2

227:15 228:20

229:8 239:20

241:5

kinds 166:8

King 2:14 4:8 7:22

7:22 35:12,13,14

181:7,7 200:5,5

know 16:13 44:4

50:2 61:8 82:14

85:5,19 100:4

115:19,19 119:3

126:8 162:9 165:3

166:5 167:2

185:10,12 188:18

205:7,22 206:1,14

207:9 211:9 212:6

214:8,14 216:21

217:6 230:19,20

230:21,21 231:21

232:14,16 233:15

244:2

knowing 216:13

knowledge 159:3

known 82:3

knows 161:14

Koep 2:14 4:13

11:3,4 66:8,9

kW 71:19 85:11

L

L 2:8

La 10:9 107:10

187:2

lab 69:2

label 215:8

labeling 202:5

labor 204:2

Laboratory 2:15

9:22

lack 90:1 151:17

155:3

lag 216:2,19

language 235:1

large 21:18 32:3,11

33:13 34:2 35:22

37:16,19 41:4,10

42:6,16 43:6 46:8

47:13 49:1 55:3,9

55:21 58:14 59:3

62:17,19 71:8

72:1 75:2,11,12

78:4 79:20 83:1

83:20 84:3 85:18

86:14,22 88:17

89:8 96:19 97:18

98:7 99:7,9,14

100:6,14 103:13

103:19 104:6,17

106:8 107:1

109:12 110:5,14

111:3 112:2,9

114:1 115:16,21

116:5 117:1,14,17

117:19 118:1

121:1 126:6,18

128:9 129:5 130:6

131:3,21 134:10

137:17,20 138:3

155:3,19,21

156:21 157:15

179:6,10 187:5,9

187:13 188:15

189:4 210:7 211:2

217:9 226:6

237:15 243:9

larger 32:14,19

33:7 37:5 72:11

72:13 74:17 75:18

76:4,13 85:8

112:3 185:18

largest 19:15

121:12 125:18

large-capacity

38:18 39:17

large-scale 149:4

large-volume 1:3

6:7

lastly 57:15 88:9

240:16

late 48:5,20 111:22

Laughter 54:13

147:7 160:13

177:3 195:16,19

211:22 237:10

Laura 1:13 9:11

217:2

Laura's 222:18

law 177:8,18 178:2

185:8 205:8

217:12 223:3

lawful 240:11

Lawrence 2:15

9:21

lawyer 211:19

lawyers 208:4

211:1,3

layer 205:13

lead 180:9

leaders 46:21

leads 19:7 138:20

201:18

lead-off 15:11

leak 128:21 149:4

leakage 24:12

74:17 88:13 128:3

223:14 224:3,12

226:6 241:9

learn 91:12 149:21

learned 31:12

103:16 130:12

202:22 244:7

learning 32:1

leave 27:16 112:21

122:6 172:18

211:20 227:20

leaves 108:2

led 144:14

left 6:17 139:19

153:1 183:9

216:20

legacy 206:12

207:17

legal 163:20 168:19

177:22 213:9

223:2

legislative 84:11

Lekov 2:15 9:21,21

lengthen 32:5

lengthier 18:18

lessen 71:22

lessens 117:4

let's 10:3 16:17

17:18,22 18:22

67:8 152:17

165:14 192:19

194:16 195:17

198:21 210:15,17

210:20 230:19

232:12

level 58:8 134:3

138:7 140:7

154:22 166:16

179:17 225:9

230:8 241:4,18

levels 139:7 140:4

liability 169:5

lie 35:6 151:12

life 66:12

lifetime 37:20

light 90:12 137:7

143:13 154:18

Lighting 6:22

11:19

limbo 122:7

limit 14:8 38:11

116:1 119:15,16

limitation 93:19

limited 31:11 43:8

122:3 127:1,5

131:20

limiting 108:17

Linda 2:14 4:8 7:22

35:11,14 181:5,7

200:5

line 60:2,5 62:4

87:3 91:7 120:4

128:19 141:7,11

141:19 158:5

170:3 205:2

212:19

lines 219:12

link 214:14

liquid 107:18,21

list 16:22 161:17,22

162:7 168:2 228:7

230:7

listed 19:1 143:16

listen 89:10
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 262

listened 125:12

144:18

listening 125:4

175:15 178:16

217:5

literally 129:15

159:22 186:10,16

literature 75:4

231:4

little 13:1 34:15

47:17 85:4 91:17

94:21 126:16

152:13 187:11

193:14 210:3,18

216:2 223:15

224:3 231:12

236:2

live 43:10 209:13

living 63:1 126:8

load 27:18 28:6

31:3 35:22 36:7

40:2 41:11 42:22

44:3 47:20 48:1

51:12 52:7 55:8

56:9 58:2,7,15

61:21 62:10 71:9

71:18,20 72:2,7

72:15,18 73:3

74:5,10,16,22

75:7 77:4,6,14

78:1,5 79:10 80:4

80:6,8,10,12 81:3

81:12 82:6,8,10

85:22 86:21 87:1

87:7 88:2,3,7,18

95:1 96:21 97:16

97:21 98:14,22

101:10,12,14

103:1,3,12,15

105:7,8,13,19

106:17 107:2,14

108:1,19,21 109:8

110:3 111:13

112:8 113:11

114:17 115:16

116:7,12 118:17

119:1,22 120:9

121:2,17 125:17

126:1,22 127:20

128:13,17,22

129:16 133:10

140:18 142:2,16

143:6 145:3 172:4

178:19 182:2,5,10

187:7,8 191:9

193:13 220:9

loads 105:20 111:8

120:10 218:17

load-control 31:6

46:8 128:15

load-management

46:5

loans 116:21

local 61:17 82:14

101:5 109:2

119:13,14 192:11

237:14

locally 104:7

locate 105:13

located 43:13 83:9

106:2 107:10,17

118:9

location 140:20

locations 118:10

lock 186:18

locked 199:16

235:7

locking 212:2,7,8

215:20

locks 207:1

Logerman 2:16 4:7

8:13,13 29:21,22

30:1

long 17:5 30:20

35:4 66:12 73:2

79:22 81:1 82:8

93:7 112:4 130:10

150:3,11 198:7

208:8 223:8

longer 23:20 34:20

65:18 67:18 68:8

73:1 106:14 195:2

233:21

longevity 112:22

long-lived 219:14

long-term 79:6,9

79:13,17 121:16

long-time 27:8

look 24:19 27:16

44:20 50:4 53:22

64:11 67:4 75:3

94:2 95:22 100:15

131:19 133:12

137:10,12 138:10

139:13 140:6

141:3 146:14

178:9 179:18

180:13 183:8

189:19 203:18,19

223:12 226:2

looked 141:22

200:6,7 232:15

looking 26:22

34:12,13 205:20

206:17 217:10,12

228:19,20

looks 139:17

177:19 205:14

loop 241:6

loophole 91:9,22

122:6

Lorain-Medina 2:5

4:14 11:21 70:22

71:10

lose 52:6 58:13

82:22 88:16 114:3

114:15 121:1

224:18

losing 223:15

losses 33:4

lost 184:20

lot 14:13 16:13,14

17:2,3 26:5 28:21

80:16 81:9,19

82:16 93:5,6 94:7

96:15 99:4,8,12

101:13 110:10

144:18 146:10

147:2 153:11

154:15 159:20

166:17 169:11

170:8 173:14

175:22 183:9,15

194:14 201:10

203:1 206:14

209:8 212:4

216:22 219:11

220:2 231:8 244:2

244:7

lots 92:6 129:11

loudly 167:18

203:12 218:1

Louisville 12:17

137:4

love 220:18

low 22:7 41:16 53:4

55:13 70:5,12

86:1,7 114:5

115:12 116:8

121:20 142:3

lower 77:12 98:4

129:22 190:18

lowering 41:12

lowest 46:1 58:10

179:20

Lowe's 82:13

171:22 220:6

237:16,17,19

Low-income 43:6

LP 103:7

lunch 152:15

M

M 2:4

Ma 148:2

machines 148:5

Madison 10:21

96:7

Mahawold 4:22

110:19,20,21

Mahowald 2:17

10:5,5

mail 218:19

main 63:1

maintain 44:3

49:18 118:22

134:12

maintenance 43:4

73:11 77:16,18,21

116:22

major 117:16

126:5

majority 97:20

making 25:10

31:19 52:13

112:17 113:1,3

120:21 204:2

manage 41:11

85:14 86:8 116:6

225:22

managed 31:7 55:8

management 8:7

36:8 44:4 47:20

48:1 49:18 52:7

58:15 60:8 71:10

71:18 72:2 73:3

74:5,10,16,22

75:7 76:14 77:6

77:15 78:1,5,22

80:5,8 81:4 82:7

82:10 83:6 88:19

96:21 97:16 103:2

103:12,15 105:7,9

105:13,20 106:17

107:3 108:19

111:13 115:16

119:1 121:2,18

125:17 126:1,22

127:20 128:13,17

128:22 129:16

147:4 178:19

182:2,5,11 193:13

218:14,16

manager 7:16 9:17

10:11 11:21 53:17

70:21 78:21 125:9

managers 199:20

managing 47:22

60:15 80:2 111:8

mandatory 106:17

manner 106:21

manners 154:17

mano 236:21,21

manufacture 51:1

51:13 52:18,21
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 263

53:2 57:18 61:13

94:1 120:1 129:22

147:1 157:4

158:16 165:11

202:2,7,18 217:8

223:10 233:1

manufactured

43:10,15 131:22

179:15 180:16

233:6,9

manufacturer 21:4

27:16 40:4 64:16

64:20 66:22 67:3

67:22 86:16

101:13 105:10

106:18 108:13

113:14 146:22

156:17,22 157:15

158:2,9 160:22

161:1,2,4,10,22

163:2,6,10,12,15

163:19 164:1,9,13

164:17 165:1

166:4 167:11

168:3,4 169:1

172:3 181:16

186:4,6,17 193:2

197:6,8,17 200:7

202:9 205:3

214:20 215:5

219:18 222:20,21

225:1,9 229:8

230:6 235:14

241:5

manufacturers

44:13 50:11,18,21

53:1 57:16 61:11

64:17 65:7 66:20

67:17,19 68:11

81:7 86:20 93:21

105:3 109:19,21

122:21 123:22

124:6 134:19

143:13,16 145:7

165:2 171:13

178:22 182:7

193:15 194:2

196:20 198:4,9

201:13 217:11,13

217:14 225:13

235:22 236:11

240:21 243:3

manufacturer's

163:3 169:3,14

233:14

manufacturing

7:17 66:12 73:16

158:17,21 159:7

164:2 165:19

172:8 201:12

227:1

map 233:17

Maple 8:5

mapping 227:15

Marathon 103:20

170:8,9,14

March 1:6 6:9

margin 33:10

183:4

market 19:10,16

22:10 23:1,6,9,14

23:16 52:15,22

60:17 69:10 75:1

75:9 124:18,19

128:4 134:15

137:10,12 143:11

143:12 149:3

150:1 156:10

179:16 190:4

193:5 196:19

226:14 229:6

239:2

marketed 39:22

88:6

marketing 7:5 8:1

8:9 10:11 32:15

78:22 113:2 115:8

125:9 202:5

marketplace 50:19

52:16 66:15 74:19

76:13 179:2 227:1

markets 19:19 20:7

21:9 22:1 23:17

130:13

Marking 35:14

Markus 2:5 4:14

11:20 70:18,21

178:15 192:6

228:17

Maryland 4:9 8:17

45:12 53:12

168:16 211:18

Mass 11:5

Massachusetts

11:8

masse 44:14

match 81:16

matched 128:13

matching 19:16

74:10

materials 13:11

math 17:3 231:14

matter 54:2,20

56:20 59:9 63:4

153:7 185:21

223:5,6

maximize 46:2

183:11

maximized 121:18

maximizing 179:19

maximum 148:15

156:5 171:3 232:6

mean 135:20

138:11 160:2

171:4 175:9

184:20 185:1

190:16 199:11

204:12 216:16

228:3,18 230:16

237:4 238:13,20

238:22

meaningful 140:14

means 20:3 106:7

111:7 149:6 153:3

197:20 204:15

232:22 233:4

meant 232:20

238:10

measurably 33:5

33:14

measured 210:4

measures 123:16

219:21

mechanism 51:5

212:2 220:5

meet 20:3 22:21

50:14 60:9 82:1

84:20 90:8 105:12

154:22 163:4

166:6 193:5

196:22 198:6,20

224:15 236:17

meeting 1:3,8 6:6

14:5 15:17 16:18

18:20 19:4 25:10

74:1 75:16 84:19

124:9 128:6

185:22 189:10

244:13

meetings 13:22

15:5 16:3 243:19

meets 81:1 82:10

125:1 148:8

223:11

megahertz 62:2

megawatt 69:20

83:11 85:10

megawatts 20:9,9

83:17 84:19 98:8

159:14,15,16,17

159:18

member 28:5 38:4

46:6,18 47:14,18

49:17 51:6 53:7

53:11,15,22 55:5

55:12,18 56:5

57:14 58:9,19

60:7 61:7 76:19

77:22 82:12 83:8

86:5 88:16 94:12

95:9 102:15 125:3

members 25:22

26:4 27:8 31:2

35:18 36:8,15,18

36:20,22 37:2

38:4,11 41:15,18

42:13,18 43:1,10

47:22 48:2 52:8

56:7 57:21 61:16

77:5,12,14,17

78:13 79:12 80:4

80:15 81:20 86:8

88:20 89:5 94:14

97:7,12,13 98:17

100:22 102:2,9,21

103:1,6,6,19,22

104:12,18 107:4

107:15,16 114:20

115:12,19 116:7,9

116:13,16,18

118:6,15 119:18

121:4,20 124:4

125:18,22 126:2,6

126:13,20 127:3

127:18 129:3,6

181:8 188:21

195:22 197:11

200:11,17 201:1

208:13 209:8

Membership 2:12

member-owned

102:17

mention 218:10

mentioned 26:15

29:13 34:2 42:19

74:8,17 75:16

76:1 93:18 99:3

99:12 100:21

105:21 113:19

151:16 174:11

184:7,9 185:2,3

192:7 200:1 215:7

merely 91:22

merit 180:22

message 203:12

met 16:2 156:20

167:12 214:1

metal 104:14

meter 38:6 205:6

metered 39:11

metering 81:5

meters 54:21 60:5

60:11 71:5,6

121:15

method 62:6 178:7
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 264

181:3

methods 172:1,10

234:4

Meyers 167:16,20

167:21 168:9

mic 17:13 182:22

MICHAEL 2:3,13

microphone 6:18

14:10 115:6

mid 84:8

middle 211:1

midsize 48:14,20

49:4

mid-morning 13:9

Mike 11:18 12:4

25:2

miles 60:1,5 114:6

209:13

milk 37:8 75:17

milking 37:10

million 19:12 30:10

36:2,4 42:14

47:21 48:17 49:1

49:4,6 56:3,8

58:17 89:5 95:5,8

96:10 97:15 98:9

116:17 126:3

135:10,15 138:15

millions 48:19

184:6

mind 52:2 91:20

190:2 192:22

194:18

mine 39:5

minimal 33:3 110:6

minimis 47:4

minimizing 97:10

minimum 73:4

74:2 106:14

145:15

Minnesota 8:6 83:9

83:13,15 84:12,15

84:22 85:9 87:5

96:11

minute 152:18

210:5

minutes 16:13 17:5

17:8,9 34:2 54:8

152:8

MISO 60:16

missing 12:19

173:15

mission 97:11

mistakes 32:1

mitigate 40:21 41:6

46:13 123:18

mix 81:21

mixing 146:7

mobile 118:7 127:3

mode 14:7 39:9

model 109:5,17

162:1,11 164:10

164:14 165:6

172:4 199:17

227:17 236:13

models 44:15 50:12

81:8 103:21 104:8

120:5 236:17

237:2,5,7

moderate 97:21

modification

162:10

modify 171:7

modular 218:13

modulated 108:11

Mohre 2:19 12:3,3

moment 162:18

191:20 193:4

239:9

momentarily 53:16

money 115:18

116:17,18 133:22

monitor 88:13

monitored 140:22

month 98:8 99:16

141:1,1 142:22

monthly 76:9

months 16:4 52:4

80:11,13,18 192:1

moot 213:6

morning 6:4,20

8:16 11:3,6,9

12:20 19:5 29:22

30:12 40:11 45:10

59:9 66:8 70:20

89:6 91:5 112:11

115:3 129:10

132:7,11 137:2,5

137:14 138:1,15

139:12 141:10

150:8 152:10

153:10 242:15

Morrison 2:18 4:6

5:9 7:11,11 25:5,6

25:7 50:1 82:21

160:11,16,16,19

195:11,15,21

205:18 209:1

210:6,22 211:8,12

222:16 233:12

237:12 242:21

Mount 54:19

mounted 38:2,3

mouth 169:10

move 27:14 35:5

50:18 153:13

181:1 198:11

210:15,20 227:7

237:20 243:12

moved 234:4

moves 34:18

moving 31:2

155:16 174:17

180:7 198:11

199:20 200:15

226:21 229:20

230:14 240:13

multiple 43:2 51:8

62:1 105:20

155:22

multiplication 68:3

multiplications

67:6

multi-year 49:20

57:9 61:4 81:18

municipally-own...

28:14

municipals 94:14

mute 15:6 238:9

N

name 6:12 14:3,17

19:5 30:1 35:13

40:11 45:11 54:16

59:14 66:8 76:18

78:20 96:5 102:14

110:20 137:3

165:17 168:3,20

172:15 178:14

186:22 188:6

212:12 220:15

named 99:17

names 161:4

nation 70:2 121:13

177:15

national 2:6,10,15

2:18,19 9:22

149:6 161:2

237:15,20

nationwide 109:3

161:3

natural 3:5 4:17

9:1 36:19 71:14

89:3 99:5 103:7

107:17 114:5

nature 23:13

Navigant 2:6 3:4

9:20 10:2

near 61:15 83:16

103:17 221:1

nearly 56:3 111:14

necessarily 91:10

134:2

necessary 14:11

72:14 74:4 77:20

234:6,8

necessity 69:19

need 17:9 24:2

26:11,15,17 27:7

27:20,22 41:6

42:7,11,21 44:5

44:16 45:4 47:11

57:22 61:9 62:20

64:13 69:17 75:21

78:7 79:16 80:21

81:6 86:10 87:9

98:4,16 102:8

112:1 117:2 119:4

128:21 132:19

139:6 143:22

147:6 149:18,19

156:10 159:21

163:15 164:18

171:19,21 172:12

177:13 180:5,7,10

181:22 191:4

196:3,4,7 201:12

201:13 203:15

209:3 214:2 218:5

224:19 226:2

228:5,13 229:9

231:9,15

needed 40:21 46:13

50:13 98:13

105:15 112:4

160:6 175:6 193:5

230:8 233:21

237:21

needing 126:7

169:17

needle 16:9 95:11

95:12 100:19

needs 22:22 28:2

30:7 48:10 50:14

70:2 86:13 92:1,8

92:15,20 93:13,16

102:6 105:12

116:1 129:18

131:5,9 147:12

149:1,11 162:10

163:13,21 169:7

171:18 187:19

193:6,15 199:19

207:3 241:11

negating 42:11

98:4

negative 42:17

79:19

negligible 117:19

negligibly 189:5

neither 21:4 46:18

50:21

NEMA 3:3

net 90:19 126:2

138:21
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 265

network 50:11 81:7

86:19

networks 87:6

208:13

never 146:17 177:6

181:11

new 19:9 23:15

24:2 32:3,8 33:21

35:19 36:3,7

87:11,13,20 97:10

98:11 100:17

102:4 119:10

122:18 124:5,9,17

143:14 144:16

153:15 156:7,8

161:11 162:4,8

172:21 173:13,19

174:1,4,21 197:10

215:22,22 229:1

240:22

newly 56:1

nice 154:4

night 20:17 83:10

83:21 84:5 86:2

193:22 194:9

nine 54:8

noble 222:11

noise 62:21 127:6

196:18

noisy 134:10

non 23:17

noncompliant

164:16 201:18

222:22

nonprofit 183:3

nontoxic 86:1

non-manufacturer

158:20

NOPR 22:9,15

25:19 26:3,3,8

29:4 63:20 64:2

65:11 79:17 152:5

225:3 243:3

normal 171:17

172:10 234:3

North 7:9 10:6 71:1

71:13,15 110:22

111:11 129:13

171:20

northern 38:14

53:18 83:13

Northwest 10:11

Northwestern 2:14

4:8 8:2 35:15,16

35:21 36:6 181:8

200:6 212:11

note 18:16 57:15

90:4 93:18 209:13

235:12

noted 21:15 68:22

notice 26:13 27:6

33:19 40:5,17

45:2 60:19 87:19

113:20 173:8

174:9 181:4

notion 87:11,19

170:8 175:17,19

176:1,4,9,11

193:21 194:6,11

212:2

not-for 28:15 97:4

November 197:9

NRDC 3:4 89:15

90:14,15 150:13

NRECA 4:6 5:9

7:12 11:10,17

12:3 16:1 25:7

29:13 50:1 78:9

82:21 147:15

241:15

NRECA's 51:17

128:7

nuclear 24:2

Nucleus 200:8

number 15:18

38:11 67:4,5,16

67:19 91:2 100:6

100:20 101:15

108:17 110:1

126:8 137:14,19

143:17 144:20

145:5 172:4,20

190:5 209:4,5

210:7 218:12

219:2,3 228:20,22

229:18 231:11

232:6 233:6

234:18 235:4,7

239:4 242:9 243:9

numbers 56:12

58:16 95:15

122:13 214:10

225:10,11,13,15

225:17,22 229:12

233:18 234:8

237:15 238:21

nut 149:8

O

objective 123:7

133:12 214:1

239:16

objectively 32:19

objectives 100:9

objects 95:7

obligation 163:3

observe 14:1

obsolete 203:1

220:13

obtain 169:15

obviously 75:14

132:11 156:11

162:11 214:11

232:21 241:10

occupying 126:9

occur 113:21

142:22

occurred 206:21

October 130:12

OEM 158:9 227:15

offend 150:6

offer 46:9 62:17

77:15 80:18 87:10

89:18 97:8 102:9

104:10 106:7

107:3 118:5

124:13 208:15

offering 78:1

124:20

offers 40:19

offhand 220:22

office 9:10 19:3

21:14 22:2 146:13

173:17

off-peak 20:17 31:3

38:5 85:3 86:12

97:22 142:21

143:8 194:13

Oglethorpe 2:21

4:13 8:11 63:11

226:11

oh 196:17 235:7

Ohio 12:1 71:1,2,3

71:5 178:16

Ohio's 71:16

oil 36:19 103:7

okay 17:10,17,17

132:7 149:10

153:3 154:2

155:16 160:17

167:16,20 174:8

192:2 215:1,4

228:12 229:19

237:8,22 241:15

241:21

old 39:9 175:18

176:3,10 180:21

187:7 237:4

once 53:21 154:9

167:1 170:15

171:14 194:19

226:18 228:8

244:6

ones 18:5 27:17

53:3 172:12 199:1

199:15 233:8

one-for-one 38:10

181:21 188:13

one-way 203:10

one-year 22:15

34:22 44:2 49:16

51:18 52:2 61:3

73:7 79:22 82:19

93:19 100:17

104:16 113:6,6,17

118:21 120:16

146:19 147:5

169:12,18 171:2

ongoing 57:8 59:2

online 69:17

167:17

onset 198:16

on-going 206:11

on-peak 84:7

op 43:10

open 18:3 28:13

65:6 94:7 157:8

158:4 202:13

opening 4:4 13:3,6

13:8 17:22 196:13

opens 239:18

operable 207:4

213:5

operate 25:22 26:7

26:7 50:10 62:3

117:8

operated 39:8

179:20

operates 23:15

operating 30:21

42:9 44:21 52:3

70:6 103:10

126:17 183:4

operation 41:22

52:19 116:15

154:18

operations 37:9,13

37:22 54:17 75:17

89:19

operator 22:5

opinion 67:18

opinions 157:11

opportunities

91:13 107:4

opportunity 13:2

13:16 24:18 30:18

31:13 45:14 54:3

55:2 58:21 63:9

65:6 66:16 69:8

69:15 70:17 76:22

77:22 78:17 79:3

89:6 94:6 95:21

96:14 99:12

102:20 107:6

111:1 115:14
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 266

144:5 151:17

153:14,18 224:18

240:4 242:16

oppose 135:19

opposed 46:19

155:14 180:15

185:6 212:14

232:17 233:14

opted 203:7

optimization 132:2

option 37:10 39:16

70:10 106:7

118:14 126:5

170:16 200:8

options 13:15 85:1

103:9 155:17

202:16

order 1:8 31:8 35:5

41:15 55:12

209:20 224:4

237:18

ordering 113:2

orderly 35:5

organic 150:14

151:6 177:18

organization 19:12

124:7

organizations

122:22

original 123:4

133:13

ought 81:12

outlined 110:12

outset 157:10

outside 74:15

105:14 114:6

121:14 210:8

outweigh 34:8

133:18

overall 33:11 45:19

56:22 137:16

139:1 191:1

overcome 113:15

overlooked 34:1

overly 91:4,6 119:8

overview 4:3 13:2

13:13 15:14

156:15 227:11

overwhelming 93:9

overwhelmingly

98:15

owned 34:11 58:19

111:11

owner 84:6 97:7

owners 28:5 53:15

55:6,12 56:5

57:14 58:9,19

60:7 61:7

oxide 177:14

o'clock 13:10 16:20

P

packaged 88:4,6

packaging 27:21

packed 209:2

packet 153:17

243:16

paging 87:4

pair 209:15

Palmetto 2:1 4:23

7:6 115:9,11

116:4,10 117:7

120:1 128:16

188:8

panhandle 94:15

parameter 177:10

parlor 37:8

part 45:19 58:14

59:4 73:5 81:21

93:17 126:5 130:7

150:13 158:2,7

159:9 168:8 179:7

188:10 189:9

202:9 211:3

213:18 215:3

236:12 237:19

243:13

parte 16:2

participant 36:12

39:5

participants 14:21

14:22 15:3 23:10

37:5 82:16 95:3

239:2 241:2

participate 13:18

15:8 21:9 23:22

24:18 37:3 58:1

76:2 77:6,14 80:4

97:18 98:17,19

102:2 103:1

116:20 135:10

138:5 169:19

182:14 197:15,22

240:3

participated 80:8

participating 20:7

59:19 77:17 97:16

108:19 111:15

126:1,22 137:20

138:20,22

participation 36:10

55:18 104:1 109:8

233:3

particular 15:22

134:9 142:13

143:1 162:17

185:16 199:16

200:8 222:9

233:19

particularly 20:15

22:7 85:3 103:11

145:6 181:18

235:17

parties 91:12 122:7

155:12

partners 21:16

215:7

parts 36:9 51:10

party 175:16

pass 41:13 42:4

55:11

passed 129:21

passionate 16:14

path 34:15

pattern 136:12

141:8,10 166:13

patterns 79:12

141:15

Paul 3:1 5:3 7:8

129:9,12 160:15

pay 36:20 109:6

Payne 2:20 4:15

10:12,12 76:17,18

76:18

payoff 34:16

peak 31:3 41:11,12

42:12,22 47:22

55:8,15 56:9 80:3

80:6,10,12 84:1

97:22 111:8 116:7

129:18 139:7

141:10,11,21

142:17,19,20

143:6 190:8

194:15

peaking 111:20

112:5

peaks 60:16 112:11

141:9 187:10,12

187:15

penalized 234:20

penalty 235:2

Penelope 2:10 4:16

10:17 78:19,21

penetration 24:10

99:6,7 149:13

Pennsylvania

35:17,19 36:3

people 15:18 19:12

75:13 80:16 93:5

96:10 97:15

137:19 138:4

144:20 165:8

173:1,3,13 174:21

196:14 211:4

217:6 218:20

230:20

perceives 163:13

percent 36:18 37:2

37:4 41:17,19

43:9 55:18 56:11

56:12 68:21 71:11

71:13 74:3 77:5

84:13,16,20 98:21

99:2,6,7,20 100:2

119:11 124:14

125:21 139:9

179:8,11 182:12

200:10,12 231:14

percentage 131:8

perfect 85:6

perfectly 216:15

perform 92:17,19

151:22

performance 69:22

89:20 124:21

127:10 128:1

performed 117:16

performing 90:3

period 31:17 32:6

34:20 84:2 93:22

112:21 128:10

132:16 141:22

142:14,18,21

143:3,8 151:19,19

190:11 194:15

195:5,8 229:11

244:1

periods 38:16

56:18 72:16,19

80:7 139:7 141:17

permanent 122:20

permitted 171:14

person 17:20 19:1

74:17

personal 62:18

personally 121:20

perspective 22:18

30:13 33:18 67:4

139:3 174:16

178:18 230:2

PGM 159:17

phone 148:3 165:3

phones 14:7 15:6

206:22 221:9

physical 205:12

219:13 221:20

Ph.D 2:15

pick 213:17

piece 99:11 101:22

137:15 180:17,18

204:4

piggy 198:17

pilot 39:4,5,11

134:5 181:18
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 267

pinch 29:12

PJM 2:2,8 4:5 7:14

11:2 16:1 19:6,11

19:14,21 20:5,15

21:3 23:7,14 24:4

24:7,14 26:15

172:19 190:14

PJM's 22:18 23:1

23:14

place 57:2 60:13

76:5 105:4 117:6

118:13 147:11,17

186:21 204:1

230:12

placed 50:6 73:13

119:7 120:19

placing 38:15

plain 176:3

Plains 96:12

plan 13:20 24:16

25:22 26:16,16,16

27:7 64:9 81:7

119:19 152:7,11

239:3

planned 93:7 182:4

planners 35:4

planning 23:19

66:4 73:10 79:6,9

79:17 93:22

230:22

plans 79:7,7,14

166:6,7 182:7

planter 223:8

plants 20:19

platform 19:19

play 47:13 55:4

222:8

played 208:7

PLC 210:8,12

please 10:4 12:15

14:2,3,6,8 40:8

82:22 115:5

157:21 165:16

170:3 172:15,15

178:14 192:3

195:20 210:1

217:18 218:1

243:18 244:10

pleased 60:18 78:6

79:15

plenty 215:14

Plowden 2:20 3:8

5:2 10:10,10

125:6,7,7

plug 148:7 199:22

203:19 210:12

218:21 220:12

222:8

plugging 192:3

plumber 214:3

plumbers 101:5

plumbing 82:12,17

plus 135:15

point 14:19 26:22

27:4,6 50:22 51:1

57:18,19 61:2,13

61:14 63:20 66:21

67:14 69:6 97:17

110:8 119:22

141:20 152:16

157:3,4 158:3

160:2 164:13,22

165:11 167:1

173:10 174:18

180:22 189:19,21

192:15,17 193:3

193:19 195:6

196:12 202:1,6,17

202:18 204:6

205:1 210:16,21

211:1,7,9 212:5

212:10 215:16

216:10,17 221:6

222:19,19 223:9,9

228:3 238:21

pointed 21:16

pointedly 17:6

points 29:12 59:11

64:7 66:19 150:12

151:13 181:15

212:9

policies 47:1

policy 48:11 52:13

90:17 123:4

150:18 223:16,19

224:4

pool 120:11 136:10

poor 52:13

popular 127:16

population 63:15

portfolio 20:14

portion 156:9

posed 43:19 49:12

117:11

position 69:7

134:16 143:22

155:14 162:18

202:3 209:10

239:11

positive 29:19

possible 31:9 32:13

55:13 58:10 156:7

176:12 179:4,16

179:21 197:12

207:10 239:15

possibly 131:19

216:6

post 234:11 235:3

241:18

post-January

207:19

post-manufactur...

235:21

potential 43:5

68:19 69:6,9,10

75:9 86:11 89:18

110:4 164:15

177:12 208:15

215:6 230:11

potentially 169:16

220:13

pounds 39:3,5

power 2:13,16,21

2:22 3:6,7 4:6,7

4:13,18,19,21 7:3

8:11,12,14,15,21

10:9,21 12:2,5

20:17,19 28:12

30:2,2,7,9,12

34:11 36:12 42:20

45:20 46:1 56:3,8

57:8,12 58:9 60:7

62:4 63:11 76:10

77:11 87:3 94:12

94:13 95:1,4 96:7

98:13 99:16,20

100:3 107:9 116:8

120:4 126:3,15

128:19 129:18

134:13,15 183:18

187:2 196:19

218:3 220:17

226:11

PowerPoint 153:16

practicable 51:11

161:18

practical 35:1 62:9

91:13 92:3 93:20

120:1 174:13

229:18 235:19

practically 51:2

Pratt 2:21 4:13

8:10,10 63:7,8

198:12 226:10,10

preach 181:8

precedent 162:20

precisely 22:11

predicated 185:17

prefer 72:22

126:13 222:9

preliminary 15:10

92:9

premise 117:13

premium 109:5,6

preparation 18:6

present 1:11,19

70:8 91:8 92:9

93:2,19 154:1

presentation 5:6,7

18:2 133:3 136:18

153:14,18

presented 91:8

136:14

presenting 95:22

presently 59:19

60:10,21 62:6

99:1

preserve 110:15

preserved 133:15

preserving 135:11

president 7:5 8:1

8:12 35:14 40:12

54:17 59:15 76:19

115:4,8

presiding 1:10

press 85:17

pretty 116:12

201:9 202:18

231:3 236:10

prevent 151:7

226:15

previously 74:8

207:13

price 21:11 75:21

124:14

priced 109:4,11

primary 68:3 97:11

97:17

principally 94:16

prior 23:3

probably 16:14

94:17 101:20

152:13 165:21

170:12 175:3

180:12 199:9,17

204:13 218:19

problem 24:21

39:1 101:11 151:5

167:14 193:12

200:9 208:6,9

209:6 211:4 226:1

226:3 242:4

problematic 47:6

219:15

problems 64:22

192:8 208:14

212:18 226:16

239:13

proceeding 21:22

201:8

proceedings 153:16

process 1:3 6:6

22:14 23:12 28:22

44:9,18 49:21

50:6,8 51:2,19
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 268

57:9 61:4 67:15

73:14,16 81:18

87:15,16 90:11

93:1,11,14,17

94:5,20 102:5

105:2,5 106:11,12

109:16 110:7,14

119:8 120:16

149:20 151:2,18

156:2,4,5,13,15

158:7 162:5,21

166:20 169:3,13

169:15,20 173:5

173:10 174:14

180:8 181:1

186:10 193:1

206:1,4 215:5,15

227:3,4 228:11

238:6 239:12

240:17

processes 166:14

process-wise 173:1

procured 23:3

produce 81:9 122:4

139:6 171:15

181:12 182:7

196:20 198:5

223:1 232:9

233:22

produced 64:16

156:22

produces 222:21

product 64:16

93:22 122:5,18

123:11,14 124:1,5

124:13 143:10,10

145:4,22 146:1

147:1 148:22

163:6,20 164:2

172:3 177:16

180:16 182:17

185:2,16 192:18

194:3 196:2,5,7,9

196:15,16,18,21

197:6,7,10,12,18

197:19,20 199:8

199:12 202:12

211:5 223:1 224:8

224:16 233:18,22

237:13,15,18,21

production 67:12

104:17 128:8

166:6,7 232:18

productive 16:18

products 50:18

92:16 133:6 134:5

134:7,9 142:9

143:11,15 148:12

150:1,16 158:16

161:12 163:2

186:7,8,19 198:6

198:19 199:1,4,5

200:3 201:1 206:7

206:9 208:12

215:15 225:7,8

226:4 227:2

235:21

profit 28:16 97:5

183:4

profit-neutral 21:5

program 9:17

26:20 27:3 28:2

31:8,20 32:3,8,8

32:15 34:17 36:5

37:4 40:16 41:2,5

41:14 43:17,19

44:4,6,8,16 48:16

49:5 55:8,11,16

56:2,6,10 58:3,7

58:15 59:5 60:8

61:9 71:10 72:3

72:17 73:12 74:2

75:1,7 76:2 77:6

77:15,16,18,21

78:1,6,12 80:5,9

80:14 81:10,17

82:2,4,10,15

86:15 93:22 94:22

95:2,14,17 96:21

97:17 98:14,16,19

101:8 102:3,10

109:9,13 112:18

112:22 113:5,6,7

113:20,21 114:2

116:12,20 117:2,9

117:11 118:5,8,17

119:1,2,5,6,11

121:2 125:1 126:2

126:5,11,12,22

127:17,20 130:7

138:20 139:15

142:13 143:7

147:5 149:14

157:17,18 158:19

161:12 162:11

163:9 165:6,7

166:1 179:7

181:14 182:5,11

186:20 188:10

191:10,21 193:20

196:3,8,10 197:14

197:15,22 201:15

202:7,10 209:21

213:19 216:4,5,14

220:9 228:4 229:1

230:20 231:1,2,13

233:3 244:8

programs 24:10

26:7,16 28:17,18

29:5 42:7 46:8,16

47:7 49:12,18,20

50:5,9,15,17 51:7

52:7,20 56:16

59:20 60:13 61:1

64:1,1,11 65:21

65:22 66:14 79:21

88:7,12,19 90:18

90:22 92:4 103:2

103:3,12,15,16

104:1 105:7 107:3

107:5 108:21

111:18 121:18,21

124:17 128:11,14

129:17,17 130:4

130:11 132:12,15

133:6 134:12

135:14 137:8

138:6,6,17 142:11

154:5,15 155:5,21

158:1 159:21

161:1,3,15,16

162:1,8 163:18

178:19 189:19

191:14 199:20

200:3 206:11

215:10 219:9

222:4 225:1,18

226:5 227:3,15,16

228:8,12 233:7

234:7,13 239:17

240:3,7 241:2

progress 63:22

114:17 239:22

prohibit 52:17

prohibition 42:15

prohibitions

200:20

project 140:17

projected 234:18

projecting 95:8

projection 234:22

projections 79:11

projects 19:8 113:4

134:6

proliferation 69:12

prominent 69:18

promise 69:21

108:9 109:7

promote 179:5,9

188:11 193:10

223:17,19 224:4

promoted 77:2

promoting 84:8

200:22

promotional 75:3

promulgated 16:7

propane 36:19

107:19,21

proper 106:19

properly 56:19

113:22

proposal 16:9 45:7

51:17 53:9 59:2

110:10 112:20

120:21 121:6

128:8 132:14

136:16 143:22

146:17,19 159:9

159:10 162:6

164:9 168:8 171:8

173:18 174:1,12

201:21 202:21

227:12 238:17

239:9

proposals 34:19

202:15

propose 156:4,12

173:2,3

proposed 1:3 6:6

13:15 22:19 29:3

40:18 43:17,21,22

44:9,18 47:4

49:10,15 50:7

52:6,9,17 53:2,14

57:4 58:12,22

60:19,22 65:11

72:3 78:7,9,10

80:22 82:19 84:12

88:15 89:8 91:3

100:18 102:5

104:16 105:1

107:12 109:15

110:7,14 114:13

117:10 118:18,20

119:13,21 120:17

150:20 151:1,14

152:1 154:10

157:14 171:1

201:19 238:6,16

proposing 207:20

proprietary 211:5

prosecute 217:15

prospective 90:12

90:13

prospects 89:16

protagonists

146:18

protect 148:9 150:1

217:14

protocol 62:7

148:20 205:11,12

protocols 220:21

prove 123:8

proven 125:16

provide 13:1 19:20
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 269

20:2 24:9 30:9,19

45:22 47:15 55:5

60:6 67:11 75:4

80:15 86:12 97:12

99:21 102:7

103:18,21 107:14

110:16 127:15

130:7,17 132:1

134:3 144:16

148:5 151:2

214:20 240:3,6

242:15

provided 99:22

103:3 107:4

109:20,22 151:19

156:5 232:6

240:21

providers 134:14

provides 23:7,8

34:7 58:8 77:13

77:18 125:2 151:6

providing 35:10

70:11 108:10

115:13 131:6

225:4 233:13

provision 21:10

65:17 91:16 123:2

provisions 72:21

provoke 52:10,12

public 1:3,12 2:13

3:7 4:6 6:5,13 7:3

7:5 12:5 15:17

21:16 28:12 52:13

78:21 93:12,15

115:8 151:20

173:8 200:18

238:6,9,12 239:7

244:13

published 155:6

pump 37:21 38:8

38:19 39:2,3,6

43:11 56:18,21

62:13 68:18

101:17 109:9,12

114:9 118:1,2,11

120:11 123:20

127:4 132:21

133:1,14 136:9

137:7 138:19

139:4,15 140:2,8

141:15 142:1

143:2 144:2,17

145:7 149:22

154:5,21 181:13

181:20 182:11

183:12 187:4,18

188:9,11,15

189:11,11,22

190:3,17 191:8

192:9 193:11

194:2,4,7,19

195:2,4 196:15,16

196:18 198:15

225:2

pumped 20:19

pumps 62:18

136:11 155:22

purchase 37:18

57:22 61:16 64:9

64:13 75:5 104:11

124:2 126:13

129:5

purchased 82:9

119:12,13

purchasing 126:11

purple 141:19

purpose 22:20 60:5

74:13,16 76:14

82:10 191:15

purposes 21:12

75:9 144:3 150:16

pursue 173:9

pursuing 34:14

push 143:5

pushes 142:16

pushing 142:19

put 18:12,13 26:10

31:15 39:9 57:21

65:1 140:19 141:5

161:4 168:20

169:9,14 178:18

216:12 230:9

232:16 244:5

puts 50:8 216:3

putting 19:4 37:15

176:21 230:3

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

6:1

p.m 84:2 244:12

Q

qualify 160:12

164:15 243:6

quality 75:17

104:19 169:4

quantifiably 30:16

quantitative 90:3

90:11 92:10 93:2

quantitatively

92:21

quantities 75:18

79:12

quantity 37:16

122:3

quarter 96:9 97:15

178:6

query 158:14 167:6

question 32:20,22

67:9 135:21 136:2

145:10 161:5,6,21

162:3 163:8,21

164:14 167:5,21

169:7 172:19

186:3 190:12

191:20 213:11

217:18 223:21

228:18 236:4

238:2,5,20 241:16

questionable 56:21

questioned 32:16

questions 15:8

164:17 170:22

173:1 185:14

202:8 233:16

241:1

queue 159:18

168:11 211:14

queuing 14:16

quick 64:6 99:13

150:12 213:4

quickly 31:12 98:3

112:7 152:22

198:17,22

quiet 196:21

quite 46:22 63:16

75:11 104:13

155:2 163:22

176:22 185:15

199:18 202:22

quote 200:22,22

R

R 2:3

radial 108:6

radio 87:2

radio-control

128:18

raise 15:7 174:10

raised 168:18

207:15

ran 31:18

range 39:4 92:12

95:5 145:19 146:9

ranging 103:5

rant 205:15 206:21

rapidly 89:16

rapidly-emerging

89:22

rate 56:4 109:7

178:9 210:2

rates 38:5 42:19

55:13 77:12

121:19 122:4

129:22

rating 178:7

rational 109:6

rationale 174:3

reach 62:5 205:7

reaches 83:13

reaching 48:13

react 34:21

reactions 212:2

reactive 183:18

read 232:15

reading 167:22

ready 88:2 198:10

211:21

real 22:19 29:8

56:22 74:19 93:20

136:2 163:20

183:17 185:13

208:14 210:11

213:4 225:4

realities 226:22

reality 44:12 50:17

74:18

realize 122:17

realized 34:9

really 25:16 27:14

55:1 63:19,21

64:2 72:4 74:21

92:8 93:1,16 94:5

94:5 95:19 135:2

148:11 150:11

152:1 154:11

156:10,14 163:13

165:1 166:9,16

170:6 173:1

182:19 183:1,10

184:1,4,11,15

186:4 197:10

201:2 212:15

214:4 219:15,18

219:20 230:4

232:5 234:8

235:13 239:18,20

real-time 131:5

real-world 140:19

reaped 78:13

reason 68:4 75:3

109:11 135:4,18

210:6 238:19

reasonable 46:1

68:9 90:1 92:13

110:10

reasons 24:16

26:14 53:6 67:2

68:22 74:7 75:17

100:20 110:12

114:19 149:15

154:12 164:8

173:12 177:10

190:5

rebate 76:3 80:19

126:12 127:17
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 270

rebates 75:4 80:20

116:21

REC 2:14 4:8

35:15 181:8 200:6

receive 76:3,8

222:22

received 13:12 36:8

151:5,20 155:9

158:20 203:12

receiver 101:12,14

105:22 106:2

218:6

receivers 101:10

receives 223:3

receiving 84:1 88:1

recognition 79:16

115:22 177:12

recognize 46:7

60:21 89:22

100:12

recognized 22:2

31:1 78:7 111:6

111:20 161:7

recognizes 16:6

24:4 89:15

recognizing 40:17

40:20 46:12

recommend 40:4

113:16

recommendations

113:3

reconceive 240:7

record 14:3 18:20

153:7 159:13

165:17 172:16

189:10

recover 190:1

195:5

recovered 143:8

recovery 190:9

194:19

red 141:7

reduce 68:19 91:21

116:15 129:18

reduced 56:2,10

134:2

reduces 139:8

reducing 56:8

70:14

reduction 43:4

56:17 69:6,9

77:10 104:3

reductions 56:5

129:19

refer 190:21

reflect 27:13

reforms 24:6

Refrigeration 9:6

regard 181:12

201:6

regarding 30:19

32:16 58:21 67:14

84:12 112:19

regardless 47:8

233:3

regards 68:6

region 19:13 20:15

114:14 235:19

regional 19:11

regions 235:16

region's 20:14

regular 149:12

regulated 200:17

200:21

regulation 48:13

131:7 163:18

169:18 193:1

201:6 204:15,17

208:16 209:7

regulations 23:21

151:1 162:22

163:1 164:12

201:11

regulators 57:13

147:2 201:3

regulatory 7:12

13:13 47:10 50:3

reinforce 226:12

reiterate 212:9

reject 117:12

rejected 174:6

rejection 173:12,15

relate 163:1

related 62:21 79:12

relations 7:5,17

40:12 78:22 115:9

213:1

relationship 105:2

relative 47:10

relatively 138:2

208:11 212:16

relays 120:9

released 218:15

relevant 150:17,17

185:16 233:21

reliability 19:10

21:7 22:22 23:5

46:2 130:19

reliable 19:17

21:10 45:21,22

47:15 55:6 107:15

rely 28:17 64:8,9

190:4

remain 52:21

189:16

remaining 67:21

remains 70:4

remark 230:17

remarkable 146:20

remarks 4:4 5:8

13:3,3,8,17 17:22

35:8 132:5 150:9

189:2 242:17

243:11

remember 145:18

212:11

Remind 211:8

reminder 209:4

243:22

remove 149:17

224:13

removed 27:12

39:7

removing 182:1

render 213:6

renewable 20:12

21:1 69:15,16,17

70:12 84:14,17,21

85:14 99:19 100:8

108:10 130:19

131:8 194:14

renewables 100:10

159:13 180:1

renewal 23:12

72:21

renewals 22:16

renewed 156:6

repair 77:18

repeat 129:12

replace 39:17

44:17 51:18 87:16

113:16 119:19,20

120:16 122:14

214:8

replaced 78:3

102:6 128:21

replacement 38:10

48:10 77:19 78:2

104:20

replacing 80:19

report 88:10

225:10,11 236:22

241:19

reporting 24:7

131:18 233:10

234:18 236:16

240:17

reports 148:16,17

represent 35:17

36:13 39:1 63:10

63:14 96:8 200:17

representative

53:11

Representatives

4:4

represented 143:17

149:8

representing 11:14

12:2 54:21 60:3

71:2 96:6

represents 36:11

47:5

reprieve 169:18

request 16:11

39:21 129:4 155:7

156:16 159:6

165:14

requested 13:6

15:19 67:11

186:20

requests 18:10

require 74:2,5

84:13 87:22 88:5

88:9 93:1 108:22

154:21 179:7

215:8,12 232:22

234:22

required 26:3

81:18 133:8

157:20,21 189:22

196:16 201:17

210:2 216:18

232:5 233:17

236:13 238:9

requirement 40:2

43:5 66:21 101:11

108:1 113:12

157:14 160:20

190:12 191:1

238:11,18

requirements 57:9

62:20 81:3 82:1

82:11,15 84:20

85:15 86:16

131:18 135:6

156:20 157:7

185:8 188:14

189:20 196:22

198:6,7 201:19

203:16 233:10

requires 49:21

56:16 57:10 61:4

195:4 227:12,14

requiring 22:15

109:16 214:19

research 85:6

117:16 123:14

189:3 218:3

researched 163:14

reservoirs 32:5

reshipping 235:18

residential 8:9

20:21 42:10 45:18

48:4 55:19 57:1

63:15 67:21 68:17
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 271

68:20 69:1 71:11

71:19 77:5 80:3

111:16 125:21

137:16 179:11

resides 38:14

181:20

resistance 21:19

41:4,10 46:9 55:3

55:10 56:16 83:20

85:18 88:18 97:19

100:6 103:13

108:5 110:14

115:17 116:6

123:19 125:14,22

127:8,12 128:2

129:6 139:16

140:10 141:6

155:20 156:1,21

182:1,10 185:19

189:4 192:7 225:2

resistance-type

28:17

resisted 185:7

resister 214:7

resistive 29:8

190:17 191:9

194:8 195:3

204:12

resolved 163:22

resort 38:14

resource 20:8

23:19 125:17

resources 3:5 4:17

9:2 19:20,22 20:6

20:12,15,20 21:7

21:8 22:10 23:2,5

23:7,11,22 24:6

26:17 27:7 37:1

84:14,17 86:9

89:4 98:12 100:1

100:3 130:8

179:20 180:13,14

respect 208:4

220:17

respectfully 48:12

117:12 120:15

respectively 144:17

respects 203:2

respond 56:19 98:3

131:4 187:3

195:11 199:5,8

210:1 211:10

222:17 225:14

responded 226:14

responding 167:5

191:4 193:15

responds 199:10

response 20:7,11

23:6 28:16 38:1,7

41:1 42:6,15 45:5

45:17 46:3,7,16

47:7 48:3 49:12

52:20 55:16 56:16

57:7 59:4 64:1,11

67:8 79:21 88:12

99:14 102:10

108:11 111:2,17

114:2,16 117:1,9

118:4 123:15

130:4,11 131:6

132:2,10 134:18

141:12 143:5

157:18 164:15

176:6 198:1 203:4

204:14 209:21

213:19 216:14

223:17,20 224:19

226:16 227:2

responses 161:8

167:6

responsibility

168:22 205:8,11

responsible 125:1

responsive 237:5

rest 94:15 110:9

restriction 40:2

131:20

restrictions 37:15

38:11 43:11 88:8

restrictive 113:12

restrooms 152:20

restructured 23:18

result 33:8 37:17

38:17 58:6 81:17

90:21 92:11

119:17 181:3

183:20 240:8

results 33:6 39:13

134:7

resume 153:4

resumed 153:8

retail 82:12 122:4

retailer 122:9

retain 128:21

rethink 24:15

29:12

retire 231:5

retirement 231:2

231:10

retrograde 134:17

returned 32:2

revenue 205:5

revert 114:14

review 12:21 72:21

93:12,15 156:18

171:7

reviewed 79:8

123:3 156:6

RFI 90:15 156:11

Rheem 3:1 7:17

165:18 169:11

192:10 214:5

224:21 235:13

236:20 240:20

rich 35:21

Rick 129:8

Ridge 83:16

Ridgeland 115:10

right 54:9 91:20

108:13 129:4

140:2 153:4 154:7

155:16 172:18

183:7 197:20

206:22 216:12

219:9 229:12

236:12 237:2

rigorous 90:9

rise 171:1

risk 36:13 91:9,22

223:22 224:2

230:10

River 2:11 3:2 4:17

4:19 8:5 10:20

83:7,10 84:10,18

86:6 87:2 88:15

96:6,21 99:16

175:15 193:20

Rivest 3:4 10:1,1

RJ-11 148:6

road 220:13

Robin 3:4 4:17 9:1

89:1,3 150:13

151:15

role 20:22 30:10

47:14 55:4 111:2

123:6 180:1

rolling 26:18

147:16

room 1:8 15:21

24:20 43:13 62:15

142:11 144:20

153:4 165:2

167:19 204:16

208:5 211:2,3,20

rooms 38:13

Rosenstock 2:21

12:12,12 158:11

158:12,12 159:4

159:11 160:8

200:14,16,16

215:18,19,19

216:16 234:14,15

234:16 241:12,13

241:13

rough 177:17,18

roughly 140:9

147:19 229:4

231:5,10,10,15

round 130:8

route 65:10 173:9

routes 145:6

171:18

Roy 3:4 4:17 9:1,1

89:1,2,3

RTO 19:14

RTOs 130:14

rule 18:6 22:20

29:2 40:22 41:7

43:18,22 44:19

46:14 47:4 49:10

49:15 50:7 52:6,9

52:11,16,17 53:2

53:14 57:4 58:12

58:22 63:3 72:1,3

73:17 78:7,10

79:18 88:15 102:5

104:16 114:13

116:2 117:10

118:20 120:17

133:13 134:18

135:6 136:1 139:5

143:14 144:19

150:20 151:14

152:1 175:4,7,9

180:6 217:7

239:19

rulebook 175:18

176:11,17 180:21

rulemaking 13:13

40:18 60:19 68:10

144:13 159:5

rulemakings

146:16

rules 60:21 74:13

98:18 107:12

112:17 176:1,10

226:20,21

run 28:18 32:7

72:17 91:15

187:19 193:20

204:3

running 62:22

117:7 204:1,12,19

204:20 228:4,8,12

runs 237:17

rural 2:5,6,10,18

2:19 4:14 8:2

11:21 35:17,20

36:15,18 37:14

38:12 48:15,18

49:4 53:5 63:17

70:22 107:17

110:16 209:22

239:21 243:5

R7.8 65:8
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 272

S

s 7:13 19:2 187:3

190:14 191:6

Sachs 3:5 5:4 9:3,3

144:9,10,11

147:10 162:13

177:4,6 200:1

202:19,20 207:12

207:15 210:1,11

210:17 211:7,11

221:17,17 235:11

235:12

safe 47:15 55:6

60:6 244:9

safeguards 74:20

sale 206:7 223:9

sales 40:1 88:8

Salisbury 11:5,7

Sam 4:9 8:16 45:8

45:11 164:4

168:11,14,15

211:15,17 213:13

229:21

SAMUEL 2:3

sat 122:17

satellite 209:17

satisfaction 32:7

125:3

satisfy 135:5

save 115:18 116:16

133:16,22 184:5

240:4

saved 36:4 56:7

saves 41:20

saving 95:5 126:2

178:11

savings 31:13,21

34:8 36:1,13

41:14 42:3,14,18

47:22 48:16,18

49:1,3,6 55:11

56:4 58:9 76:10

77:8 95:9 98:6,10

103:5,12 107:4

109:7 116:10

129:20 133:17,18

138:7,18 139:1

140:12,13 149:6

149:13 177:9,14

183:2 184:7,19

191:1 203:9

saw 112:1,7

saying 182:21

214:2 216:12

229:13 238:21

says 150:14 170:17

180:10 195:4

235:1 239:3

SBA 243:6

SC 4:8

scald 146:6

scale 69:20

schedule 152:8

206:17

schematic 156:14

school 32:20

scientific 62:3

scope 137:11

Scott 2:2 4:5 7:13

18:22 19:5 159:19

190:14

searching 85:5

Sears 82:13

seat 169:14

sec 157:21 236:7

second 68:15 92:8

109:14 121:12

146:12 159:11

162:3 203:11

208:3 227:21

secondary 236:3

Secondly 65:1

seconds 243:17

Secretary 223:18

224:1

security 25:11

see 13:20 18:2,7

26:13,18 27:11

60:16 66:3 67:8

76:5 79:15 90:15

106:16 141:7,19

142:8,14,17 143:4

143:5,15,17,22

155:3,10 158:4

163:14 165:14

169:5 185:9

220:18 221:3,7

222:12 242:19

seeing 138:15

165:22 198:19

seeking 66:20

155:8 158:6

seen 20:5 64:15,20

100:13 146:17

147:14 195:3

200:22 201:5

segment 5:7 143:13

segments 227:8,8

segue 201:10

228:16

seldom 72:7

select 51:3,4 80:14

183:9 221:22

selects 58:3

self-limiting 108:22

sell 101:2 103:20

161:16 167:15

171:16 172:9

182:16 198:5

220:6 236:14

sellers 19:16

sells 223:6

send 147:8

sending 13:18

senior 6:21 102:15

sense 35:1 47:1

188:13 233:5

235:14

sensitize 230:4

sent 244:5

separate 123:11,13

123:21 149:15

180:11 181:4

207:16 228:10,11

separation 144:14

September 170:18

serious 116:17

163:8

seriously 30:16

serve 19:19 23:4

27:8 34:3 54:22

71:4 111:12 118:6

121:15 122:11

149:1 235:16

serves 20:22 94:13

116:11

service 36:10 56:1

64:12 77:19

105:18 114:4

122:12 123:5

130:13 136:6

services 19:21

53:18 60:2 76:20

92:17 102:15

130:20 132:3

204:17 208:17

servicing 105:15

serving 19:12 96:9

149:4

set 16:6 64:18 69:8

81:2 101:8 145:19

162:20 191:12

195:6 216:1

sets 191:22

setting 25:9 38:9,16

164:6

settling 134:19

seven 17:11 73:1,15

75:13 95:3,4

104:13

shadows 83:18

shape 134:16

shaping 112:8

114:17

share 14:12 17:19

20:13 76:10 113:8

133:4 134:6 137:5

145:1 178:17

sharing 53:16

shaved 80:10

shedding 103:3

Shelby 3:2 4:12

11:13 59:15,17

60:1 62:17

Shelbyville 4:12

59:16

Shelby's 61:22

shelf 27:17 80:17

161:13 196:5,5,11

206:10 213:16

224:9

Shenandoah 3:8

4:11 11:12 54:18

55:14

shift 97:22 133:10

140:18 141:21

142:15,17 143:3

187:11 190:8

shifted 142:2 143:3

shifting 145:3

191:9

ship 64:19 220:10

234:2

shipment 236:3,16

shipments 157:5

228:21 235:21

237:13,15 240:21

241:4

shipped 66:22 88:1

145:18 146:6

148:13 164:22

171:22 201:22

203:17 207:3

214:12

shipping 166:1

ships 235:15

shock 128:4

shop 153:2

short 3:6 4:18 8:20

8:20 13:3 31:14

35:1 93:21 94:9

94:10,11 109:15

129:11 151:19

190:9 232:8,8

shortages 119:17

shorter 229:11

short-term 192:8

show 39:13 85:16

180:12

showed 126:16

187:10

showers 216:22

shows 134:4 139:19

141:21 143:1

189:3 235:3
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 273

shut 214:7

side 8:6 83:6 85:11

85:12 205:5

sidebar 14:8

sides 146:18

sign 170:3

signal 148:17 199:6

signals 210:4 237:6

signature 168:20

significance 135:16

significant 33:5

37:12 43:21 48:6

49:7,14 58:12

62:21 64:4 67:16

68:2 74:20 91:8

111:6 114:12

129:19 133:17

137:19 138:22

139:1 140:15

226:17 240:4

243:8

significantly 62:16

70:14 107:20

117:15 135:14

silent 14:7

similar 68:12 69:5

141:15 190:7

193:20

simple 28:3 34:7

37:18 44:19,22

51:19 72:20 86:1

87:17 120:17

198:8 220:5

230:22

simpler 169:21

simplicity 45:4

102:8

simplified 106:12

simplistic 225:6

simply 31:15 33:8

34:22 44:1 57:21

73:9,17 74:8

118:18 135:11

188:21 189:14

240:6

sincerely 45:5

58:22 78:9

single 51:8 61:22

177:16 190:4

224:16 232:22

sit 154:12 191:12

sitting 122:16

169:13

situation 73:9

100:19 165:4

167:3 172:6 229:2

situations 158:20

182:13 216:17

six 17:11 52:4

120:2 128:17

130:22 143:15

192:1 222:4

size 32:17 33:12

47:9 73:22 76:4

85:10 95:18

137:18 242:7,11

sized 76:13

sizes 46:4 67:5

143:18

skeptical 32:16

skew 212:13

skip 154:6

SKU 67:6 68:2

233:18

slaughterhouses

37:14

slide 17:22 141:20

143:1 153:16

164:21 201:8

229:20 230:14

233:9 234:11

242:22

slides 15:12 17:16

154:3

slight 139:22

slightly 137:18

142:18

slippery 47:6

slope 47:6

slow 194:3,6 206:4

slowly 178:12

small 16:8 28:16,18

29:4 31:10,21

36:14 37:13 43:13

48:18 67:16,21

93:6 95:15 103:17

117:15,18,20

118:9,15 136:8

155:22 170:1

196:21 243:1,2,4

243:6,7,9

smaller 31:16

72:19 75:8,22

85:7 127:1,2

189:5

smart 34:4 99:15

122:19 123:4,10

124:11 145:2,22

148:18 149:20

175:21 176:13

177:1 180:1

181:10 182:4

221:9

Smith 170:14

smoke 210:3

smoothly 16:20

snack 152:22

snapshots 141:3

SNOPR 173:20

175:8

snow 83:14 223:8

soared 32:7

software 207:21

208:5 221:20

solar 159:15,17

sold 108:18 109:18

110:2 131:22

149:1 165:6

224:16

sole 65:3 67:21

solely 180:15

solution 22:4 24:21

39:20 114:11

122:2,6,20 131:20

181:21

solutions 1:12 6:13

7:14 19:7 34:21

131:13 134:14

somebody 148:4

164:1 220:7

224:17

somewhat 132:10

167:9

soon 35:2 172:18

sorry 172:17

212:11

sort 27:18 73:22

74:14 84:21

170:12 172:22

173:7 176:7,16,17

184:1 187:11

199:12 223:13

234:22 235:1

sounds 81:11 213:8

source 65:3 68:17

127:21 190:5

194:22

sources 101:1

102:4

south 3:6 4:18 7:6

8:15,22 10:13,18

10:21 30:3,8,10

30:22 32:12,21

40:14 41:9 42:13

43:9,15 76:21

79:2 94:12,13,13

94:16 95:1,4 96:7

96:10 115:10,12

117:8 125:9,19

171:21 189:8

southeastern

111:11

Southern 2:4 12:11

219:8 222:18

southwestern

83:15

space 43:5 62:19

64:18 72:10 127:1

127:5 130:1,16

188:14 196:15

spaces 136:8

speak 14:2,4 15:19

16:12 17:4 26:5

58:21 59:17 66:18

111:1 167:18

177:6 217:18

speakers 144:7

speaking 8:21 25:3

25:4 66:9 211:19

special 38:5 151:7

specific 26:8 53:13

74:1 88:3 93:4

157:7 165:14

167:6 171:6 172:3

172:3,4,4 174:5

193:6 197:17,17

200:20 233:18,18

specifically 13:17

22:14 55:14 67:10

90:19 113:10

139:14 158:5

159:5 188:19

191:4

specifications

179:1

specifics 26:5

specifying 148:1

221:19

speculation 90:2

speed 187:20

209:12,19

spending 206:14

spill 173:13

split 127:21

spoke 61:3

spoken 192:10

Springer 2:22 4:21

10:8,8 107:7,8,9

187:1,1 220:16,16

222:11

Springer's 193:19

spur 154:11

square 62:15

squarely 65:2

stability 45:20

47:11

stabilization

130:18

stacked 85:11

staff 7:2 57:11 61:6

81:19

stage 69:8

stakeholders 24:20

28:21 49:22 57:11

61:5
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 274

stand 10:4

standard 16:7

21:17,22 22:9

31:7 38:17 43:20

47:5 49:13 57:6

62:6 73:22 84:21

86:21 104:4

117:12,13,22

124:9 148:7,12,13

158:17,21 159:7

163:5,11 188:15

201:12,16 206:6

211:6 218:16

221:1,3 222:20

223:4

standards 9:18

33:3 61:1 74:1

81:2,2 90:9 91:10

92:19 125:2

154:19 158:15

163:3,4,5 201:17

206:3,4

standby 33:4

standing 130:10

standpoint 166:15

179:18 180:6

stands 83:14

Stanonik 2:22 9:5,5

162:14,15,15

167:8,8 214:17,17

219:17 228:1,2,2

232:3,3

Star 143:16

start 6:15,16 10:3

18:22 21:13 25:8

147:17 153:5,20

173:5,7 176:4,13

started 48:16 49:5

89:12 94:4

starting 173:22

174:22 175:2

state 63:15,17

117:6,7 149:8

173:2 200:18,18

201:5

stated 24:16 33:4

223:16 226:20

statement 13:6

196:13

states 6:5 23:18

130:2 131:22

160:1 200:20

223:17 228:13

statistics 137:22

status 148:17

statute 150:14

151:6

stay 187:14 195:17

196:8 210:17

211:3

steady 194:4,6

steering 76:12

Steffes 3:1,1 5:3,3

7:8,8,9 129:9,10

129:12,12 130:14

130:22 171:12

step 186:18

steps 91:20 137:18

157:12

stereo 214:9

sterilize 37:9

Steve 11:3 12:12

158:12 161:6

200:14,16 214:16

215:18,19 216:15

234:15 241:12,13

241:22

Steven 2:14,21 4:13

66:9 158:11

234:14

stick 242:8

stick-built 43:14

stifle 22:16

stock 231:6

stopping 85:16

storage 1:4 6:7

20:18,19 21:19

22:6,10,12,17,21

31:10 32:4 33:7

34:4 40:19 42:7

42:16 60:20 64:1

69:15,17 70:3,5

70:10 85:20 86:7

86:11 98:1 103:19

107:19 111:4,21

112:9 115:20

117:2,18 118:5

130:1,9,16,21

131:6,13 132:1

140:8,11 142:20

145:10,11,12

146:1 147:19,20

154:15 155:4,20

157:16 179:13

180:3 187:5

188:16 189:20

195:1 204:9,17

215:10 242:9,11

store 85:2 100:7

104:7 109:3,10

116:8 133:7

139:18,20 140:3

146:3 176:6

190:10

stored 83:11

194:20

stores 61:17,18

82:13,14,18 101:6

straight 63:19

141:12

straightforward

231:3

straight-forward

91:19

Strategic 76:20

strategies 85:1

strategy 45:19 70:4

84:1 85:22 194:13

stray 74:15

stream 23:9

stress 145:9

stretch 178:2

strict 50:5 119:7

120:19

strong 66:14

111:13

stronger 112:14

strongly 65:18

79:10

struck 134:11

136:5

structure 57:1,3

106:10

struggling 176:20

stuck 240:1

studied 140:22

studies 139:11

244:3

study 117:16

126:15 137:6

139:13 141:22

142:17 189:8

stuff 15:11 153:19

207:17

subject 93:12 157:1

202:10

submission 89:13

submit 24:16 47:3

59:9 169:8 225:19

225:21

submittals 21:17

submitted 18:9

156:16,17

submitting 54:1

166:12 225:18

subsequently

166:11

substantial 67:18

149:7

substantively

173:11

suburban 48:20

49:2 63:17 212:16

success 32:13 98:21

successful 98:15

102:11 103:17

107:2 129:16

successive 222:5

succinct 164:18

succinctly 100:8

164:12

suddenly 175:9

sued 148:4

suffering 151:9

sufficient 23:2

196:19

sufficiently 242:18

suggest 26:9 44:17

51:18 62:14 93:13

93:16 120:15

suggested 88:14

148:14 149:16

165:9 172:21

185:1

suggesting 206:14

suggestion 242:2

suggests 161:7

suitable 62:22

suited 69:1

summarize 18:21

54:6 96:18 174:16

summarizing 96:3

132:5 155:7

summary 13:3

109:20 144:4

summer 56:12

80:11 111:22

112:5 114:16

sums 133:17

supplied 65:3

supplier 225:1

suppliers 57:12

61:7 126:14

supplies 23:8

supply 8:14 19:17

30:2,12 37:15,18

72:15 73:22 81:22

99:21 100:3

123:22 124:3

145:16

supplying 30:6

167:2

support 51:17 72:5

72:20 94:19

122:18 128:7

129:2 134:3 147:5

149:14,19,20

181:13 222:12

241:3

supported 122:20

155:12

supporters 89:5

supporting 139:10

195:8

supportive 41:14
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 275

supports 54:11

90:14,16 95:17

123:6 132:12

136:3 144:1

suppose 213:8

sure 24:11 40:8

74:14 81:21

138:13 160:11

167:22 184:18

185:12,14 192:3

196:2 219:22

224:7,11 236:8

Surely 109:20

surveys 241:1

suspect 66:1 91:1

91:17

sustain 112:4

sustainability

112:22

sustainable 199:18

SW 1:9

switch 47:8 48:9

51:5 58:4 72:8

74:10 81:4 128:22

switches 48:15,21

49:3,7 55:21

56:14 62:3,8 82:8

128:19

switching 52:10,12

95:17 142:7,10

143:7

system 25:22 29:6

33:2,2,16 34:4,5

36:8 43:12 44:2

51:8,16 53:15

55:20 61:22 62:4

62:13 81:5,16

97:21 98:22

107:14 108:3,10

108:19 110:3

120:14 121:19

122:1 127:9,21,22

128:6 130:15

148:8 159:14

180:15 183:6,11

183:20,21 184:13

185:5 187:7

193:13 208:2

221:7

systems 26:6,16

30:21 31:6 33:13

43:3 45:16 46:18

47:14,19 48:3

49:17 51:6 53:7

53:11,22 58:5

64:10 95:9 96:22

108:15 127:8,13

179:12 184:19

T

T 2:3

table 4:1 26:10

183:10

take 13:9 16:10

17:2 37:10 66:2

119:14 129:4

137:9 138:10

139:11 144:8

150:9 152:17,22

166:17 181:14

183:8 184:10

195:2 216:6,22

223:22 224:2

235:22 239:22

taken 29:9 145:15

190:4 211:7

241:11

takes 62:14 113:5

140:9 243:17

talk 89:11 94:21

121:11 125:11

140:17 150:10

183:17 203:15

205:4 230:1

talked 59:13 143:9

244:2

talking 20:21 67:6

89:12 131:16

132:21 135:11,12

136:20 148:1,11

180:2 192:22

199:11 207:18

213:7,12 218:9

219:19 221:18,19

talks 240:16

tank 31:11 32:19

33:12 72:11 75:8

75:14,22 80:21

104:12,14 114:9

119:15 124:11

126:10,18 129:1

139:20 158:9

194:19

tankless 43:2

tanks 31:8,16 32:14

32:17 72:13,19

74:1,3,17 76:13

117:16,20,21

118:1 127:2

128:12,12

tank-type 67:21

target 127:10

targeted 67:10

156:9 186:19

tasked 32:21

taught 144:21

team 139:11

technical 208:9

technically 118:4

techniques 184:14

technological 22:17

technologies 19:9

34:10 46:3 69:21

87:1,8 95:16

130:21 131:11

140:1 144:16

156:7 176:14

183:19 186:1

190:3 214:6

technology 21:21

22:13 29:8 34:7

36:7 45:17 47:8

48:4,10 68:14,16

70:3 74:11 82:5

84:8 85:16 86:21

87:4 100:5 123:5

123:11 124:15,20

132:18,20 134:20

134:21 135:5,7

138:12,14,19

139:5,15 141:16

142:7 143:12,20

144:2 154:21

179:9 180:2

181:13 182:2,12

188:22 189:11,12

189:12 193:4,12

198:15 210:12,18

225:20 237:5

tee 155:1

telephone 148:8,9

203:18

tell 17:8 47:17

202:11 203:6

220:19 236:2

tells 208:18

temperature

139:21,22 145:11

145:13,14,16

147:21 181:19

194:20 195:1,6

204:11

temperatures

133:8 146:8

tempering 146:6

temporary 122:2,6

ten 17:4 48:9 73:4

99:20 141:5

tend 20:16

tens 210:4

ten-year 119:3

term 73:2 79:22

106:13 177:19

terms 92:3 137:11

165:22 166:22

170:7 178:10,22

179:19 189:22

204:16 207:7

216:18 225:4

226:6 227:12

234:7,12

territory 51:11

56:1,14 122:12

136:7 181:18

test 145:13,14

148:20

tested 195:4

testified 84:11

testimony 21:13

215:14

testing 19:9 69:2

124:21

Texas 23:16

thank 11:1 12:14

12:18 15:22 16:21

18:15 25:1,6,12

25:18 28:8,9,10

29:16,20 35:9,9

35:11,13 40:6,7

40:10,15 45:7,8

45:11,14 46:12

53:21 54:15 58:20

59:5,6,8 63:6,8

66:5,6 70:16,18

76:14,16,21 78:16

78:18,20 83:2,3

88:21,22 89:5

94:8,10 95:20

96:1,2,5,13

100:14 102:11,12

102:19 107:5,11

110:17,18,22

114:21 115:1,6,13

121:5,7,10 125:3

125:5,11 129:7,8

132:4 144:4,10,20

146:12,20 150:5

152:6 153:10

160:8,14 164:6

168:9 170:4

171:12 175:12

176:18 181:5

195:10,14 201:6,7

202:20 205:17,18

209:1 210:22

216:15 219:5

220:14 222:16

227:6 229:19

235:10 237:12

242:11 243:10,13

thanking 21:13

25:8

thanks 15:15 19:2

24:22 89:2,2,3

94:2 112:16 152:5
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 276

153:5 221:17

241:21 243:21

244:6,9

theory 236:14

thermal 2:7,14

4:13 11:4,7 40:19

60:20 62:20 66:10

66:10 70:5,6

85:21 111:3,21

112:9 115:20

118:5 130:1,16

145:12 146:1

154:15 155:20

157:2 189:20

215:10

thermostat 221:10

they'd 201:2

thin 208:13

thing 29:9 81:22

97:17 133:11

134:10 138:12

145:3,9 148:16

166:18 174:17

177:17,18 179:22

183:1,7 189:1

199:19 203:11

204:4,18 208:2,3

208:10 213:15

230:18 239:14

things 16:20 61:2

129:11 132:9

148:9 166:8 176:7

176:17 181:17

205:5 207:1,10

209:2 221:12

231:18

think 15:10 16:8,16

18:4 26:11 28:2

28:19 29:3 40:9

65:5,6,12 67:9

68:10 73:20 91:4

91:6,16 92:6,8,22

93:5,10 122:16

132:13 133:2,11

134:15,16 136:12

136:19 144:1

146:22 147:14

150:21 153:11,15

155:2 160:5

162:18 163:12,20

164:7 165:20

166:1,15,22

168:18 169:6,10

170:22 171:16

172:9 174:7 175:3

176:4,21 177:1,2

177:18 180:11

182:22 183:7,22

184:5 185:9 186:4

186:11,13 189:1

193:14 198:5,13

199:3,12,13,16,18

202:2 203:1,3

207:17 211:2

212:3,13 215:3,11

215:21 216:9

219:15 220:2,22

224:14 227:18

229:18 230:22

231:3,9,13 232:20

234:17,21 235:5,5

235:9 236:1,11

238:16 242:13

244:7

thinking 16:19

91:7 147:18

176:13 202:22

204:7,15 230:18

231:20 232:1

235:20

third 65:12 67:14

71:18 92:15

111:14 138:3

204:6 208:10

Thirty-four 15:1,2

Thirty-seven

125:21

THOMAS 3:5

thoroughly 163:14

thought 93:6 156:4

159:12 166:20

167:9 171:2,9,19

174:13 178:16

207:8 213:11,21

230:17 231:7

thoughts 158:14

166:10 203:14

thousand 231:16

thousands 118:6

169:16

thread 16:8 100:18

threading 95:11

threat 43:19 49:11

57:5 60:22 117:11

threaten 47:7

threats 43:16

three 16:12 17:8

23:3,5,13,15

26:13,18 27:4

45:1 48:17 87:18

95:1 104:8 131:10

135:10,15 138:15

147:17 178:8

209:5 220:20,22

241:9

three-year 40:5

113:19 147:14

throw 180:22

231:20

ticking 35:3

tie 240:18

tied 172:2 180:18

Tim 5:5 12:6 150:8

177:19

time 14:2,3,13 17:5

17:9,19 22:11

23:19 24:15 25:20

27:6,10 29:13,14

31:14 34:16 46:22

51:13,22 52:1,2

68:8,12 69:6 78:2

81:13 82:6 83:22

84:5 86:2 91:5

95:15,20 105:16

113:5 127:4

132:19 136:10

141:4 142:14,18

151:3 165:16

166:14 171:6,7,8

173:4 174:16

185:1 187:19

189:22 190:9,11

191:16 193:7

194:9,14 206:15

208:8 211:20

213:7 216:2,19

225:4 229:11

times 31:3,4 33:15

42:9 97:22,22

187:17

timing 166:4,10

171:5 226:3

TIMOTHY 2:2

Tim's 150:9

toboggan 223:8

224:17

today 6:9 14:14

16:10 20:22 21:4

24:19 26:4 27:18

29:19 33:19 41:3

48:8 53:10,20

54:21 58:21 60:3

64:5 66:1,17

68:22 70:17 71:8

75:11 84:15,18

85:4 90:5 121:11

122:5,17 125:4

133:3 134:6

135:12 136:2,14

137:21 142:8,10

143:11 145:1

146:11 172:11

185:22 188:20

189:14 190:4

191:12,21 193:4

197:5 199:15

202:15 203:13

224:10 229:8

239:14 240:2

243:15

today's 21:12 58:16

told 192:14 208:15

229:4

Tom 2:11 4:19 5:4

10:20 12:16 96:4

96:6 137:3 189:16

189:17 190:20

192:19 194:16

tool 24:7 34:4 46:5

60:15 71:9 114:2

tools 64:13,19

130:3

top 114:9

total 185:4

totaled 98:7

totally 98:19 182:1

182:9 215:17

touch 68:15

touched 137:10

traceable 146:13

track 24:5 153:19

165:10

tracking 128:12

224:10

trade 138:12,18

tradeoff 188:13

traditional 108:6

122:10 124:3,10

139:16

trailer 136:8

transcript 14:5

18:11,20

transfer 62:20

transition 34:20

35:6 132:16,19,20

136:22 207:16

transitional 181:2

transitioned

132:18

translate 140:11

translates 56:4

translating 98:9

transmission 19:11

30:6 98:12

transparency

93:14

transparent 31:9

239:15

travels 244:9

tremendous 20:5

34:17 40:18

100:13 115:20

tremendously

121:16

trends 79:11
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 277

tried 153:11

trip 104:6

troublesome

118:20

troubling 150:22

150:22

true 33:10 140:13

145:17 181:17

185:20 208:20

236:15

truly 86:14 143:4

184:5

truncated 153:10

trustees 81:20

try 16:4,12 17:19

29:17 96:17

152:11,12 154:13

160:19 178:9,19

195:17 224:10

trying 15:4 16:8

25:17 39:1 71:21

101:7 133:13

142:15,19 161:18

166:5,5 176:10

178:2 183:8 184:3

184:10 193:10

216:1 222:6

238:14

tube 127:14

tune 99:19

turbines 42:12

83:17 84:19 117:5

turn 14:6 30:9 62:8

115:5 158:4

243:20

turning 6:17 14:10

187:16 232:11

Twenty 33:17

Twenty-five 200:12

Twice 38:22

twisted 209:15

two 17:1,7 26:19

39:16 42:11 60:14

71:4 72:6 75:9

90:7 108:4 117:5

120:5,9 141:3

150:12 155:13

161:6 172:22

186:5 187:15

192:16 197:2

207:15 209:19

225:22 227:7,8,11

231:13 241:9

two-hour 31:11

two-month 141:22

two-way 203:5

207:8 221:22

tying 241:6

type 105:10 142:10

155:13 184:13

200:10 212:21

214:9 221:7

types 29:5 52:18

178:20 220:20

typical 43:14

typically 6:15 75:6

101:16 103:9

104:5 107:20

U

ultimately 51:3

52:12,17 156:3

201:15

unable 53:19

unavoidable 90:3

uncertain 105:5

uncertainty 73:10

90:14 166:18

169:12

uncontrolled 110:5

understand 13:5

17:1 25:2 27:15

27:21,22 86:13

93:11 95:10

108:16 132:13

161:18 163:17

174:4 184:19

185:15 198:8

222:19 231:17

238:5,14 240:6

understanding

132:15,17 178:2

192:10 217:6

understands 86:10

222:7

understated 138:1

undoing 34:16

unfair 151:8,11

239:20

Unfortunately

49:10 57:4 72:3

104:15 117:9

unhappy 31:19

unintended 21:20

29:1 226:15,19

uninterested

208:12

unique 69:8 155:9

180:3 191:3 215:1

unit 37:17 38:7,13

38:15,18 39:2,7

39:10,14,15,17

40:1 51:16 66:22

101:17,17 105:18

106:2 113:11

120:13 140:3,10

141:6 185:6

190:19 202:6,9

213:20 214:12

232:22 234:2

United 6:5 130:2

131:22 160:1

223:16 228:13

units 37:8,19,20

38:1,13 39:17

44:14 50:12 81:8

97:20 98:1 99:8,9

112:5 113:2

135:10,11,15

140:20,22 142:1

144:15 199:20

201:14,16 228:22

233:1,6 234:4

241:10

universal 27:18

220:18

universally 68:22

university 32:21

117:17 189:7

unlock 207:6 213:5

213:8,20 216:18

unlocked 207:4,5

unnecessary 74:21

76:6 215:17

unreasonable

109:19

unusual 75:12

unworkable 44:1

49:16 50:19 73:14

118:18 131:17,18

Upahye 217:18,20

218:2,7,9 219:3

upcoming 113:3

urbanized 212:16

urge 106:22 110:13

114:20 226:18

urging 185:4

usage 104:9 141:15

142:20

USB 203:19

use 23:10 27:7,19

28:16 29:5 32:18

33:1,11,14,14,16

33:19 34:4 36:21

37:7 38:8 39:1

40:22 41:18 42:1

42:6 43:2 45:17

46:15 51:1,6,8,14

52:7 56:15 57:19

58:13 59:3 61:14

61:20,22 62:1,4

75:15 79:13,20

80:7 81:14 83:1

86:22 88:6,17

90:6 97:20 100:10

101:20 104:3

105:19 108:5,15

108:20 110:5

112:18 116:2

117:1,14,20 118:3

118:8 120:4,6,12

121:1 127:13

134:13 141:7,10

172:7 179:10

181:13 182:9

183:6 187:13

189:5,7 190:5,21

191:7 194:11,13

197:18 200:9

206:11 209:17

213:20 224:17

useful 14:19 31:17

130:10 172:15

178:17

useless 215:13

user 108:14

users 38:15

uses 39:14 223:7

usually 73:4 119:19

utilities 28:15

44:14 47:2,9

50:11,14 67:10

84:15 88:9 92:5

93:21 105:3,13

108:15 109:18,20

109:22 129:15,17

130:9 131:2,9,14

134:12 142:11

158:16 159:6,20

161:7,15 164:10

169:17 183:2,3,3

198:9,14 199:16

200:21 217:13

218:18 219:19,20

219:22 221:3

228:8 233:19

240:5 242:10

243:9

utility 21:5,16

23:18 27:19 35:4

44:16 51:4 52:3

65:2 66:13 68:11

69:19 73:2 74:9

85:22 86:15,17

88:7 92:14 97:5

105:11 109:8

113:13 118:10

122:8,21 128:11

128:13 130:3

138:9 139:3 146:2

147:2,4 149:1

154:16 156:17

157:16 158:1,10

160:22 161:11,16

163:8 166:3 168:2
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 278

168:2,19 170:1

179:18 180:13

186:3,17 190:22

192:12 197:17

199:6 200:18

203:21 204:2

205:3,9 207:5

212:7 213:20

214:12 215:1,7

219:9 220:8

221:22 225:17

227:14,16 228:4

230:19 233:10

239:1 242:6 243:7

utility's 233:15

utility-based 226:5

utility-manufact...

214:13

utilization 100:5

utilize 39:16 102:1

utilized 105:22

U.S 28:15 130:5

V

valid 189:21

Valley 3:8 4:11

11:12 54:18 55:14

valleys 187:16

valuable 112:13

125:17 130:18

value 31:2 36:11

40:18 41:4 46:7

56:22 60:20 68:13

86:11 97:12

100:13 112:7

115:20 149:14

177:21,22 179:3

208:17 228:19

values 177:12

valve 146:6

vanish 42:19

variety 51:7 61:20

86:22 87:7 92:13

101:1 108:14

111:16 154:16

155:8,11 202:14

202:15

various 51:10

178:20

varying 119:17

vast 97:19 100:6

Vaughn 2:7,14

4:13 11:4,7 66:10

66:10 67:11

vendors 119:13

verify 157:5

versus 94:18

139:15 199:6,7

201:16 226:4

vice 7:4,22 35:14

40:11 54:16 76:19

115:4,8

view 73:7,20

173:10 180:11,16

212:5

views 89:7

violating 201:5

violations 217:15

Virginia 4:9 8:17

45:12 53:12,19

54:19 168:16

211:18

visible 152:19

vital 59:3

voltage 120:5

volume 126:7

145:11 155:3,19

155:21,22 156:21

157:15

volumes 242:9

voluntarily 58:1

voluntary 55:18

98:15,19 102:3

VP 7:11

vulnerable 186:12

W

waiver 1:3 6:6

22:15,16 24:15

25:21 26:14,21

27:1,5 28:2,3

34:22 35:1,4

39:20 40:5 44:2,9

44:18,19,22,22

49:16 50:6,8,19

51:19,22 61:3

64:3,3,5,22 65:14

65:16 67:15 68:6

72:5,21 73:7,8,9

73:14,15 78:8

80:1,22 82:20

87:15,15,16,17

88:1 89:8 90:17

91:3,21 92:12

93:1,2,10,17

94:18 100:18

102:5 104:16

105:2 106:7,10,12

106:13 109:16

110:7,9,14 112:20

112:21 113:7,9,17

113:18 118:18,19

118:21 119:8,14

119:21 120:16,17

120:19 122:1

128:7 129:3 135:2

135:4,9 144:1

146:19 147:12,15

149:20 151:1,3,4

151:18 152:2

154:10 156:2,4,5

156:8,12,19,20

157:1,7 158:7,21

159:7 161:11,17

162:4,5,10 163:10

163:15 164:2,15

167:10,14 168:1,3

168:5,21 169:1,5

169:13,15,17,19

170:7,16 171:2,7

171:8,14 174:12

174:17 176:12

178:4 180:9 181:2

192:22 198:7

201:20 202:10

204:15 206:17

213:6 215:5

219:17,20 222:22

223:3,11 224:1,9

224:13 227:4

228:11 231:15

232:13 233:14,17

237:7 239:5,12

waivers 43:21 44:1

49:14,16 146:11

150:15,20 151:7

151:20 160:3

170:19 219:19

waiver's 119:16

234:1

walk 177:13

wall 128:20 210:13

walls 38:3

Wal-Mart 237:16

want 25:8,12,18

26:9 29:16 35:8

46:17 70:16 86:6

87:11,12,20 93:13

94:21 107:10

122:8 124:21

138:13 139:11

140:17 144:22

145:9 153:9

162:16 164:6

167:18,22 168:17

169:9 170:17

171:3 186:2

187:12 192:3

195:11 197:11,14

201:4 204:6,13,22

206:13 207:7

208:10 211:6

212:3,7,9,21

214:11 216:10,11

217:2 218:20

221:9 224:7,10

229:14,21 230:4

231:11,18,19

232:15 233:1,2

235:10 242:15,21

wanted 28:13 132:9

137:9 146:11

148:5 184:20,21

211:10 226:12

wanting 27:15

wants 86:7 177:2

213:17 217:17

warrant 85:17

warranted 150:2

warranty 37:20

104:12,22 119:15

126:11

Washington 1:9

6:11 112:15

209:14

wasn't 165:8

water 1:4 3:1 6:7

20:21 21:8,19,22

22:12,17,21 26:1

27:13,15 28:3,17

29:8 30:22 31:3,6

31:16,18 32:3,7

32:11,11 33:7,8

33:13 34:3 36:1,9

37:3,5,16,21 38:2

38:9,19 39:2,3,12

39:13,15,22 41:1

41:5,11,18 42:2

42:10 43:2,13

44:5 45:18 46:4,9

46:15,20,20 47:8

47:13 48:5,9 51:4

51:12 52:7,18,22

55:4,10,15,17,21

56:15,17,18,21

57:17,22 58:2,4

58:14 59:3,19

60:7 61:8,13,17

62:5,10,13,14,16

62:18 64:17 65:4

65:5 66:13 67:12

67:19,22 68:14,18

68:18,20 69:4,10

69:13 70:7 71:8

71:12,17 72:2,6,8

72:15,18 74:15

75:2,5,14,15,18

75:19 76:2,4 77:3

77:7,15,19 78:2,4

79:21 80:6,16,20

81:1,11 82:1,9

83:1,21 84:4,4,5,7

85:18 86:4,6,12

86:14,20 87:6,12

87:13,14,20,21,22
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 279

88:4,5,18 89:8

90:5,8 96:20

97:19 98:7 99:3,6

99:14 100:7,14,22

101:2,18 103:1,8

103:11,14,18,20

104:4,10,11,14,17

104:19,20 105:9

106:1,3,8 107:1

107:13,19,21

108:2,5,18,20

109:4,10,12,17

110:1,5,15 111:3

111:21 112:2,8

114:1,4,9,15,18

115:17,21 116:3,6

116:7,11,22

117:14,18 118:1,2

118:8,11,16 119:4

119:10,18,19

120:7,8 121:1,11

122:9,14,19

123:10,19,20

124:6,11 125:1,15

125:22 126:4,12

126:14,19 127:4,7

127:8,12,15,21

128:2,9,19 129:6

130:2,6,9,16,17

131:3,4,21 132:21

133:1,8,14 136:9

137:7,13,15,21

138:3,5 139:4,16

140:2,8 142:1

144:17 145:2,3,16

145:18 146:7

149:22 150:4

154:5,17,20 155:4

155:20 156:1,21

157:16 170:10,11

171:15 172:22

176:3 178:9 179:6

179:10,12 180:3

181:20 182:1,6,10

182:11 183:12

185:19 187:4,6,8

187:9,13,18,20

188:9,11,15,16

189:4,6 191:8

192:9 193:11,21

194:5,5,7,8,11,21

197:4 198:15

202:1 203:22

204:19,20 205:4

205:10 207:9

208:21 210:14

215:1,9 216:8,20

217:9 218:11,17

218:22 222:3

223:7 225:3

227:13 228:5,14

231:4,16 234:12

242:11

watt 187:21

Wave 221:13

way 18:1 25:22

26:1,21 27:13

44:13 45:2 64:3

65:16 85:2 91:7

101:9 133:21

136:13 143:6

146:21 147:3

149:9 160:3

163:18 164:18

165:10 177:20

178:4 184:3,4,10

184:22 192:12

193:8 194:2

200:15 202:3,8,11

203:8 207:5 209:3

209:19 213:17

214:14 215:9

217:10 218:5

230:17 233:8

234:20,20 235:9,9

239:21 240:5,19

241:5,17

ways 26:17 217:12

243:19

wear 152:18

web 15:5 217:17

webinar 14:21,22

15:2

week 84:10

weekend 225:21

weeks 216:6

weight 38:22

weights 39:3

welcome 4:2,3 6:4

12:19 15:13,16

16:17 195:15

Wellinghoff 208:18

went 153:7

weren't 197:5

West 114:7

western 96:11

we'll 13:6,9,10

16:16 18:2,3

80:18 81:3 91:16

133:2 134:6 147:8

150:9 153:4 154:7

225:20

we're 16:8,9,19

17:5 20:21 21:5

22:4,5 27:8,9

30:14 34:12,12

43:16 52:8,14

76:12 79:9 83:7

87:4 89:1 90:5

91:5 94:22 95:7

99:1 100:16 101:1

114:8 115:21

124:4,22 132:20

135:10 136:20

137:8 141:3 144:8

148:1 149:5,7

153:13,20 154:6

157:7 158:6

162:19 165:21,22

166:5,19 167:2

173:14 174:17,18

175:17,20 176:21

177:10 178:1,7

180:20,22 182:20

183:8,10,16 184:2

184:3,6 186:7,11

187:5 188:19

189:14 192:22

193:12,14 194:12

197:2 198:11,16

199:11 200:15

201:8,8 204:11

206:14 207:18,20

217:10,12 221:1

223:14 226:22

227:6 229:9,20

231:9,13 234:11

234:20 235:6

241:19

we've 16:7 17:17

46:21 60:12 82:7

84:7 87:14 89:12

94:3 114:18

128:16 129:14

131:10 132:22

133:5 136:13,21

137:6,13 138:3

139:10 140:19

143:9 146:10

147:14 148:6

150:3 166:6,7

175:2 178:6

192:14 193:2

199:2 201:10

202:5,14 215:13

219:18 222:3

226:20 227:18

238:20 239:13

242:13

whatsoever 223:14

wholesale 19:15

22:1 30:7 42:20

56:3,8 57:12 58:8

58:17 76:10 77:11

Wicher 3:1 7:16,16

165:18,18 224:21

224:21 236:20,20

wide 51:6 61:20

63:18 70:9 108:14

111:15

widely 134:7

willing 197:21

223:22 224:1

willingness 59:21

wind 20:12,14

83:17 84:19 99:18

99:22 113:21

159:14,16,18

176:6 186:20

window 31:11

119:3

winter 38:16 56:11

80:13 111:19

112:12 114:17

wired 148:4

Wisconsin 7:21

10:9 102:18

107:10 187:2

wise 126:19

wish 14:17 15:7

17:4 168:13

wishes 13:4 165:15

167:17

Wi-Fi 142:4 199:10

200:8 203:20

212:21 221:11

wonder 240:10

words 63:9 169:9

work 17:12,16 19:6

25:9,17,19 26:3

27:10 45:21 65:7

66:5 69:2 72:4

95:19 128:10

133:6 134:5,13,22

137:6 152:11,13

170:7 174:19

182:13 188:12

193:6 196:10

209:3 214:9

workable 100:19

102:7 136:4

worked 17:17

130:14 144:19

working 24:19

25:13 26:22 27:4

28:9 45:1 87:5

94:3,4 95:10

105:2 127:11

134:18 175:18

workings 130:13

works 94:5 101:8

218:22

world 142:8 174:18

world's 19:14

worry 234:19
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 280

worse 24:12

worth 189:1 215:2

wouldn't 32:18

75:10 167:12

168:5 173:21

229:15 232:8

239:6

write 73:3

writing 18:9 59:10

written 18:11,12,14

18:17 26:4 54:1

79:19 89:14 91:14

152:7 163:19

wrong 196:1 203:2

203:3,3 220:1

231:21,22

X

X 199:6 231:15

233:1

Xcel 85:9

X10 221:13

Y

Y 199:6

year 20:10 23:3,5

23:13,15 25:20

26:11,19 27:9,10

29:14 35:21 44:4

44:5,18 50:2,2

58:17 61:8,8

65:15,15,19,21

73:15 79:7 82:3,3

84:14,17 87:15,16

94:18,19 95:6,9

98:10 99:18 102:5

103:6 112:20

113:17 116:14

119:3,4,10 122:7

122:7,14 126:3

130:8 131:17,20

138:21 140:16

143:15,15 147:1

147:11,17 167:13

167:14 170:11,15

170:20 171:16

172:6,6,7,7 180:8

197:13 229:1,5,5

230:18 231:6,14

231:17,18 232:7

232:17 233:2,2

years 14:1 23:3

26:12,13,19 27:2

27:4 28:1 33:17

41:8 44:20,21

45:2 48:9 51:20

55:7 60:12 63:4

66:2,3,3,14 68:8

68:10 71:16 72:12

73:1,5 77:1 78:14

79:9 80:3 87:18

90:11 94:19 95:2

95:2 97:1 99:10

102:11 103:2,15

104:13 106:14

116:4 120:3,18

121:22 124:17,18

125:18 129:14

130:22 131:10

141:3 158:19

159:19 175:16

177:1 192:16

197:2 224:2

229:15

Year-by-year

23:12

year-to-year 66:4

73:8

yellow 18:2 195:13

Z

Z 199:7 221:12

zero 187:14,14

ZigBee 221:11

Zimmer 3:5 5:4

12:16,16 136:17

137:2,3 189:17,18

190:20,20 191:11

191:19 192:21

194:18

$

$1 124:10 126:3

148:14

$1.1 56:3 58:17

$1.5 49:6 95:8

$1.50 76:9

$10 124:10 148:14

$100 41:21 103:5

116:14

$11 48:17

$112 36:4

$1200 36:11

$125 80:18

$140 126:10

$15 49:1

$18 36:1

$2,399 109:11

$24.9 56:8

$25 47:21

$250 80:20

$3.4 116:17

$36 103:5

$380 138:21

$470 109:5

$5.2 98:9

$500 75:4

$500,000 77:9

$54 49:4

$644,000 42:3

$739 109:4

$9 42:14

1

1 16:19 85:10

197:12

1st 170:16,18

207:19

1'ish 152:12

1,000 119:10 161:3

161:4 166:2 239:2

1.3 89:5

1.5 30:9

1.9 56:12

1:13 244:12

10,000 60:2 95:6

239:3

10,600 102:22

10-year 79:7

100 112:3 182:12

229:5 233:1

100,000 32:10

130:4

100-gallon 32:4

204:20

1000 1:9

102 4:20

104 145:15

105 37:7 104:9

105-gallon 97:20

107 4:21

11 13:9 84:2

11:22 153:7

11:25 152:17 153:3

11:39 153:8

11:40 153:3

110 4:22

114,000 71:17

115 5:1

12 59:18 80:18

84:19

120 37:7 139:20

145:20 146:9

185:18

121 5:1

122 39:3

125 5:2 145:20

146:9

127 155:9

129 5:3

13 55:18 60:4

13,000 159:14

13-state 19:13

132 5:3

135 145:12,14

204:21

136 5:4

14 35:19

14,800 20:9

144 5:4

15 1:6 4:3 6:9

147:19 152:17

15,000 231:9,10

15-member 45:16

150 5:5

153 5:6

158.13 62:2

16 84:7 94:14 194:1

160,000 60:4

17 26:4

17,000 48:21

17,470 60:11

170 145:13 146:4

204:19

1700 20:8

180 146:4

19 4:5 41:19

190 39:4

1900 80:10

1912 55:20

1938 60:3

1970s 48:5

1979 47:21

1980s 48:20 84:9

1983 31:1

1988 48:22 49:5

1990 48:16

1995 127:18

2

2,000 28:14 83:17

2,187 60:1

2,730 60:11

2.0 127:10 128:6

2.5 56:11

20 30:7 41:8 77:1

79:6 94:13 95:4

116:4 131:13

141:14 142:1

20,000 35:17

170:10

200 233:2

200,000 230:20

2006 130:12

2007 20:9 229:3

2010 21:17 29:2

40:22 41:6 43:19

46:14 47:5 49:13

57:6 61:1 72:1

79:18 116:2

117:11,13,22

154:19 175:4

2011 55:22

2012 56:1 80:7

155:6 159:14

2013 1:6 6:9 147:22

203:15
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 281

2015 20:10 137:1

175:4 193:1 197:2

197:13 198:16

206:5,10 207:20

217:10 222:13

226:13 228:9

2020 27:1

2025 84:17

2030 84:15

2045 218:13 219:4

220:12

208,000 121:15

22 71:3 100:2 201:8

24 98:21

24-hour 36:9

242 5:9

25 4:6 36:17 43:9

77:5 84:16 96:8

125:18 129:14

152:8 158:19

250,000 107:16

26 35:21

26,000 71:4 125:20

267 159:16

27.7 98:8

28 4:7 83:8 88:16

29 4:8 13:5 16:22

97:1

29th 18:7 244:2 3

3,000 159:15,22

160:3 232:12

3,300 80:12

3,800 71:13

30 27:9 31:7 52:4

71:16 103:2

140:20 243:17

30,000 49:3

300 229:5

32 55:7

320,000 71:6

35 4:8

35,000 116:11

159:17

36 121:21

37 71:11 124:17

38,000 111:11

39 63:12

4

4 94:14 171:19

4,000 49:6

4,500 77:17

4,800 80:7

40 4:9 31:10 84:13

119:11 200:10

40-gallon 31:7

410 39:5

45 4:10 71:13

4500 187:20

470 84:185

5,000 102:22

170:10 171:18

232:13 239:3

5,300 77:7

5,400 71:10

50 66:14 68:21

85:11 112:5

114:14 124:18

126:17 139:9

50-gallon 33:2

62:14 80:19 104:7

109:5 126:10

204:19

500 161:7

51,000 60:5

52 39:16

52-gallon 39:14

54 4:11

54,000 71:19

55 72:6 144:15

154:20 209:13

55-gallon 75:8,14

59 4:12

6

6 4:2

60 19:12

600,000 35:18

63 4:13

66 4:13

670,000 115:11

7

7 84:3 147:20

70 4:14 37:4 99:7

70,000 83:11,19

125:20

700 62:15

75 72:9 99:1,5

124:14

75-gallon 37:5 39:2

39:15

76 4:15

78 4:16

8

8 62:15

8E-089 1:9

8,000 48:15

8.5 179:11

80 32:4 33:1 77:3

109:3 126:17

128:8

80s 48:5

80-gallon 38:19

80:21 109:9 118:8

125:14 126:4

129:5 140:2

800 83:11

82 41:17

83 4:17

8300 38:4

85 38:20 62:15

97:20 104:9

860 88:11

861 109:22 240:17

241:1

861S 240:18

89 4:18

9

9 62:15,15

9,409 55:16

9:00 1:9 6:2

90 74:2 179:8

90s 111:22

92 38:18

92,000 54:21 58:18

94 4:18

958 159:15

96 4:19
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

282

Proposed Waiver Process for Grid

Connected Electric Water Heaters

US DOE

03-15-13

Washington, DC