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27–389PDF 2017

AN INSIDER’S LOOK AT THE

NORTH KOREAN REGIME

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

NOVEMBER 1, 2017

Serial No. 115–78

Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/ or

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/

(II)

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman 

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey 

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida 

DANA ROHRABACHER, California 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

JOE WILSON, South Carolina 

MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

PAUL COOK, California 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

TED S. YOHO, Florida 

ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois 

LEE M. ZELDIN, New York 

DANIEL M. DONOVAN, JR., New York 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

ANN WAGNER, Missouri 

BRIAN J. MAST, Florida 

FRANCIS ROONEY, Florida 

BRIAN K. FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania 

THOMAS A. GARRETT, JR., Virginia 

Vacant 

ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

KAREN BASS, California 

WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts 

DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

AMI BERA, California 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii 

JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

NORMA J. TORRES, California 

BRADLEY SCOTT SCHNEIDER, Illinois 

THOMAS R. SUOZZI, New York 

ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York 

TED LIEU, California

AMY PORTER, Chief of Staff THOMAS SHEEHY, Staff Director

JASON STEINBAUM, Democratic Staff Director 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page

WITNESS 

Mr. Thae Yong-ho (former Deputy Chief of Mission, Embassy of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea in the United Kingdom) ............................... 4

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Mr. Thae Yong-ho: Prepared statement ................................................................. 8

APPENDIX 

Hearing notice .......................................................................................................... 46

Hearing minutes ...................................................................................................... 47

The Honorable Gerald E. Connolly, a Representative in Congress from the 

Commonwealth of Virginia: Prepared statement .............................................. 49

Written responses from Mr. Thae Yong-ho to questions submitted for the 

record by the Honorable Dina Titus, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of Nevada ............................................................................................. 51

(1)

AN INSIDER’S LOOK AT THE

NORTH KOREAN REGIME 

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2017

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m., in room 

2172 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Edward Royce (chairman of the committee) presiding. 

Chairman ROYCE. This hearing will come to order. All members, 

if you will have your seats. 

Thae Yong-ho is one of the highest-ranking North Korean officials ever to defect. As this former Deputy Ambassador to the 

United Kingdom will tell us, he wanted his family to be free. It is 

rare that we have the opportunity to hear from someone with such 

unique insight into the most repressive regime in the world and 

one that is now threatening us with nuclear weapons. 

Mr. Thae, I wanted to say thank you for speaking before this 

committee today and wanted also to acknowledge that it takes 

courage for you to do this. 

I met with you in August in Seoul, along with Mr. Yoho of this 

committee and Mr. Schneider and Mr. Bera. Your observations and 

your recommendations to the committee today will not only help inform U.S. policy, but it is my hope that your message, including 

how we can peacefully denuclearize the Korean Peninsula, will 

reach the ears of every North Korean still suffering under Kim 

Jong-un’s brutal rule. 

As I know you agree, it is crucial that we get information to 

North Koreans so that they can better understand the corruption 

of the self-serving regime there. As we will hear, elites live in relative luxury while millions barely survive. Our efforts are already 

putting pressure on the regime by creating and increasing defections from the country. I think the Kim regime is vulnerable. 

To support our information efforts, the House recently passed 

legislation authored by Chairman Emeritus Ros-Lehtinen to reauthorize the North Korean Human Rights Act. This important bill 

continues our broadcasts and it updates our efforts to include more 

modern technology to help spread outside information into North 

Korea. While we should take a diplomatic approach to North 

Korea, the reality is that the regime itself will never be at peace 

with its people, its neighbors, or us. 

But information is not our only tool. Congress also has done its 

part to ramp up economic pressure. We passed my North Korea 

2

Sanctions bill last February. In July, we increased the tools at the 

administration’s disposal by passing a big sanctions package, which 

targets, among other things, North Korean slave labor. 

In August, the administration secured a major victory with the 

unanimous adoption of U.N. Security Council Resolution 2371. Myself and Mr. Engel saw Ambassador Nikki Haley last night. Ambassador Haley called this ‘‘the strongest sanctions ever imposed in 

response to a ballistic missile test.’’ And in September, under her 

leadership, the Security Council passed another resolution, further 

upping the pressure on the regime in response to its sixth nuclear 

test. 

To be effective, these tools must be implemented aggressively. 

We will hear today how sanctions are having an impact and hurting the regime there. The administration has increased the pace, 

but we need to dramatically increase the number of North Koreanrelated designations, and we need to do that without delay. 

By using all the tools at our disposal, we can bring the necessary 

pressure to bear peacefully in order to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula. Mr. Thae, your insights into the impact of these efforts 

and life in North Korea will be invaluable and I thank you for joining us here today. 

I have been in North Korea once. Mr. Engel has been there on 

two occasions, and I want to thank the ranking member. What we 

are going to do now, Mr. Thae, is he will have his opening statement. 

Then we will go to you and we will hear from you, and afterwards we will go to the members of the committee so that they 

might ask you questions and then you can respond. 

Mr. Engel, if you would like to make your opening statement. 

Mr. ENGEL. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I stand 

by every word you said in your opening statement. We have no disagreement on this very important issue. 

Mr. Thae, welcome to the Foreign Affairs Committee. We are 

deeply grateful for your time this morning. As the chairman said, 

several members of the committee, myself included, have visited 

North Korea. I have been there twice, but not lately. 

We have had dozens and dozens of diplomats and experts appear 

before us to discuss our strategy for dealing with Pyongyang, to 

shed light on the abuses of the Kim regime, to provide insight on 

North Korea’s development of nuclear weapons. 

You know, one of the things that was interesting when I was in 

Pyongyang is I got up early in the morning and walked around and 

we saw a lot of people going to work, and they looked well fed. 

They looked well dressed. Everything was fine. 

I was then told that—by others that these were the elites and 

the only ones in North Korea that are functioning well and they 

kept us out of any place other than Pyongyang. They didn’t want 

us to see what was going on in the rest of the country. 

So the insight you can provide, Mr. Thae, will give our members 

and the public a unique perspective on this challenge. You come to 

us at an urgent time. Obviously, the Kim regime has accelerated 

its development of nuclear weapons and ways to deliver them. 

3

Our allies—South Korea and Japan—are at risk and the day is 

quickly approaching when North Korea will have the ability to hit 

the United States with a devastating nuclear payload. 

Any conflict on the Korean Peninsula, nuclear or conventional, 

would entail horrific loss of life. This is one of the most urgent 

challenges we face on the global stage—no doubt about it. 

And let’s call it the way we see it. Administrations of both parties have failed to put a lid on the Kim regime’s nuclear program 

over the course of decades. 

But I feel that what’s happening now—the President and the administration are undermining diplomacy in North Korea, where it 

is needed more than ever, hampering our ability to lead on the 

issue. 

The strategy that key cabinet officials laid out seems to call for 

a combination of multilateral, diplomatic, and economic pressure. 

These policies, along with shows of military force like flying bombers in South Korean airspace, are aimed at slowing North Korea’s 

advances. 

I am not sure we have seen evidence of that. Unfortunately, 

what we have seen is rising tensions between Washington and 

Pyongyang. 

Kim’s rhetoric and the President’s rhetoric has thrown fuel on 

the fire and I believe it has escalated the risk of conflict. Let me 

just say, as I’ve said before, more than 9 months into this administration we still have no Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia 

and the Pacific, no Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security, no Ambassador to South Korea, and I worry 

what may happen later on in this month when the President travels to Asia. 

So there is lots and lots of work to be done and I am glad that 

this committee is staying focused on this issue. I hope we will hear 

from the administration again soon on its path forward. 

This is especially important in light of the many senior level discussions with allies and partners in Asia due to take place over the 

next few weeks in conjunction with the President’s trip. 

So I’ll wrap up because I want to make sure most of our time 

today is spent hearing from our witness. Again, we are fortunate 

to have you, Mr. Thae, with us today. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Engel. 

So this morning, members, we are pleased to be joined by Mr. 

Thae Yong-Ho. He is the former Deputy Chief of Mission, Embassy 

of the People’s Republic of Korea in the United Kingdom. 

As a former high-ranking North Korean official, Mr. Thae can 

provide us, I think, some unique insights into Kim Jong-un’s regime. And so without objection, the witness’ full prepared statements will be made part of the record. Members are going to have 

5 calendar days to submit any statements or questions or any extraneous material for the record here today. 

And, Mr. Thae, if you would summarize your remarks, the floor 

is yours. Thank you, Mr. Thae. Yes. 

4

STATEMENT OF MR. THAE YONG-HO (FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF 

OF MISSION, EMBASSY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF KOREA IN THE UNITED KINGDOM) 

Mr. THAE. Chairman Royce, Ranking Member Engel, distinguished members of the House committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. 

First, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Chairman 

Royce who kept his promise to accommodate my wishes to visit the 

United States and gave me this opportunity to testify before the 

House Committee on Foreign Affairs. 

As you are all aware, I worked at the front line of North Korean 

diplomacy until I defected to South Korea in the summer of 2016. 

But my story is quite different from other defectors who may 

have experienced political oppression, inhumane treatment in political prison camps, or who left North Korea in order to avoid hunger 

and economic difficulties. 

Rather, today, I would like to tell you about my life as a North 

Korean diplomat, why I defected to the free world, why Kim Jongun is developing nuclear and ICBM programs, and how best to deal 

with the North Korean regime. 

I went through elite educational courses in North Korea which 

could not even be dreamed of by ordinary citizens there. At the age 

of 14, I was sent to China for a special elite educational program. 

More than 20 years of my past 55 years of my life were very privileged by North Korean standards. I lived and worked in foreign 

countries such as China, Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. 

The North Korean system provided me with all kinds of political 

privileges and economic benefits during this time and in the course 

of my last posting I was fortunate enough to live in the U.K. with 

my wife and two sons. 

Throughout my life, my family members and relatives were all 

dedicated true Communists. Ironically, however, I ended up deserting that system and ideology and I am living in South Korea where 

I do not have any friends or relatives. And today, I am even testifying at the United States Congress, which I had always been 

taught to fight against. 

The reason why I gave up all the privileges and economic benefit 

was that I felt I could not let my sons lead a life like me as a modern-day slave. I believed the best legacy I could leave for my sons 

was to give them the freedom that is so common to everyone in 

America. Had we not defected, I feared that someday my sons 

would have cursed me for forcing them back to North Korea. They 

were used to online gaming, Facebook messaging, email, and internet use. I believed my sons would suffer a lot if they returned to 

the North Korean system. 

Indeed, how could any boys raised in the London educational system and familiar with freedom of thought ever go back and reacclimatize to a life in North Korea? I could not confiscate freedom and 

enjoyment of liberty from them. 

I could not take back the happy smiles of my sons by bringing 

them back to North Korea. I could not force my sons to pretend to 

be loyal to Kim Jong-un and the North Korean system and to 

5

shout, ‘‘Long live the Supreme Leader, Kim Jong-un—long live the 

Socialist paradise of the DPRK,’’ like I did all my life. 

As a North Korean diplomat, everyday activities and services 

were like a leading ceaseless double life, which was psychologically 

difficult. I have to pretend to be loyal to the Kim Jong-un regime, 

even though my heart did not agree. 

I often was asked questions by my British friends which caught 

me flat footed, trying to justify the North Korean system when 

deep down I knew their concerns were fair and legitimate. They 

asked me things such as, how could Kim Jong-un prosecute his 

uncle—why does North Korea continue to appeal for humanitarian 

aid while pouring of millions of dollars into its nuclear and missile 

development. 

Communism has always opposed dynastic transference of 

power—so how then does the Kim family’s hereditary leadership 

system prevail so long in North Korea? While dealing with these 

kinds of questions was always painful and they made me increasingly realize the deep-rooted contradictions upon which the entire 

North Korean system is built. 

You might think that living as a member of the elite class in 

North Korea is all about luxury goods, fine wines, and abuse of 

power. Yet, the reality for many privileged people in Pyongyang is 

far different. For example, all high-ranking leaders have to live collectively in separate apartments according to their rank. 

Moreover, getting promoted within this system actually requires 

more sacrifices, reduced freedoms, and an increasing risk of your 

life, even though you may enjoy more economic benefits as a result. 

Indeed, if it is discovered that a senior elite may have different 

ideas or express private dissatisfactions then he or she could be 

subject to persecution. 

And as you all know, even the members of the Kim’s family have 

been subject to this type of persecution. Such was the case with the 

killing of Kim Jong-un’s uncle, Jang Song-thaek, and half-brother, 

Kim Jong-nam. 

Beyond these high-profile incidents, much more has been going 

on beneath the surface over the past 5 years. Hundreds of cadres 

have been persecuted without due process. For example, families of 

former North Korean Ambassadors to Cuba and Malaysia were 

sent to prison camps and nobody knows whether they are now alive 

or dead. 

Former North Korean Ambassador to Sweden and the former 

North Korean Ambassador and Deputy Ambassador to UNESCO 

were also forced to return back to Pyongyang and expelled from the 

foreign ministry after the death of Jang Song-thaek. 

While on the surface the Kim Jong-un regime seems to have consolidated its power through this reign of terror, simultaneously 

there are great and unexpected changes taking place within North 

Korea. 

Contrary to the official policy and wishes of the regime, the free 

markets are flourishing. As more and more people get used to free 

and capitalistic style markets, the state-owned socialistic economic 

system becomes increasingly forgotten about. 

6

The welfare system of North Korea has long collapsed and millions of civil servants, army officers, and security forces are dependent on bribes and state asset embezzlement for their survival. 

Citizens do not care about state propaganda but increasingly 

watch illegally imported South Korean movies and dramas. The domestic system of control is weakening as the days go by. 

Back in 2010, during the Arab Spring, many experts said that it 

would be impossible to imagine such similar events taking place in 

North Korea. These changes, however, make it increasingly possible to think about civilian uprising in North Korea. 

As more and more people gradually become informed about the 

reality of their living conditions, the North Korean Government 

will either have to change and adapt in positive ways for its citizens or to face the consequences of their escalating dissatisfaction. 

Until now, the North Korean system has prevailed through an effective and credible reign of terror and by almost perfectly preventing the free flow of outside information. 

Today, Kim Jong-un thinks that only nuclear weapons and 

ICBMs can help him avoid the continuing disintegration of the 

North Korean system. 

He also thinks that the existence of a prosperous and democratic 

South Korea so close to the border is by itself a major threat toward his dynasty. 

While Kim Jong-un has already long had the tools to destroy 

South Korea effectively, he also believes it is necessary to drive 

American forces out of the peninsula, and this can be done, he believes, by being able to credibly threaten the continental United 

States with nuclear weapons. 

On top of thousands of artillery pieces and short-range missile 

capabilities long held on North Korean side, the potential deployment of battle-ready nuclear ICBMs means the threat is not only 

toward South Korea but also toward America. 

In face of this emerging situation, the U.S. Government is now 

pursuing a policy of maximum pressure and engagement. However, 

it will take some time to assess the effectiveness of the current economic sanctions and campaign of diplomatic isolation. 

As we wait to see the outcome, we shall seek to continue the momentum and even expand targeted sanctions until the North Korean regime comes back to the dialogue table for denuclearization. 

In the face of the emerging threat, we should strengthen the U.S. 

and Republic of Korea alliance and enhance military preparedness 

in order to prevent potential nuclear and ICBM provocations by 

North Korea. 

The U.S. and Republic of Korea Governments should enhance the 

level of their coordination and communication under the slogan of 

‘‘We go together.’’

It is a long-established dialogue strategy of North Korea to exclude South Korea while communicating only with the U.S. The 

United States and South Korean Governments should frustrate 

this North Korean strategy through strong concerted coordination. 

Frankly, Kim Jong-un is not fully aware of the strength and 

might of American military power. Because of this misunderstanding, Kim Jong-un genuinely believes that he can break the 

sanctions regime apart once he compels Washington to accept 

7

North Korea’s new status after successfully completing the development of his ICBM program and putting the new missiles into deployment. 

Some people do not believe in soft power but only in military options. But it is necessary to reconsider whether we have tried all 

nonmilitary options before we decide that military action against 

North Korea is all that is left. 

Before any military action is taken, I think it is necessary to 

meet Kim Jong-un at least once to understand his thinking and try 

to convince him that he would be destroyed if he continues his current direction. 

We cannot change the policy of terror of the Kim Jong-un regime 

but we can educate the North Korean population to stand up by 

disseminating outside information. 

However, is the United States really doing enough in this regard? The U.S. is spending billions of dollars to cope with the military threat and yet how much does the U.S. spend each year on 

information activities involving North Korea in a year? 

Unfortunately, it may be a tiny fraction. Yet, we now know that 

the communist systems of the Soviet Union and East European 

countries crumbled as a result of dissemination of outside information and the subsequent changes in thinking caused among people 

within this systems. 

Indeed, the Berlin Wall would not have easily collapsed if East 

German people did not regularly watch West German TV. 

To sum up, much more needs to be done to increase the flow of 

information into North Korea. German reunification could not have 

been achieved if the Hungarian Government did not open its border with Austria to provide an exit route for the East German people. 

Now some 30,000 North Korea defectors have come to South 

Korea. In China, however, tens of thousands of North Korean defectors are living without papers under the shadows and are being 

physically or sexually exploited. 

While the U.S. should continue urging China and Russia to support more economic sanctions, it should also do more to stop Beijing repatriating defectors back to North Korea. 

The world was united to abolish the South African apartheid. 

Now it is time for the world to stop the widespread and systematic 

human rights violations in North Korea, which are tantamount to 

the crimes committed by the Nazis. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening statement. Thank you 

again for this opportunity and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Thae follows:]

8


27389a-1.eps

Testimony of Minister Thae, Yong-ho 

House Committee on Foreign Affairs 

November 1, 2017 

1 

Chairman Royce, Ranking Member Engel, Distinguished Members of the Committee, thank 

you for the opportunity to be here today. 

First, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Chairman Royce, who kept his promise 

to accommodate my wishes to visit the United States and gave me this opportunity to testify 

before the House Committee on Foreign A±Iairs. 

As you are all aware, 1 worked at the frontline of North Korean diplomacy until1 defected to 

South Korea in 2016. But my story is quite ditierent from other defectors, who may have 

experienced political oppression, inhuman treatment in political prison camps, or who left 

North Korea in order to avoid hunger and economic difficulties. Rather, today 1 would like to 

tell you about my life as a North Korean diplomat, why 1 defected to the free world, why Kim 

Jong Un is developing nuclear and ICBM programs, and how best to deal with the North 

Korean regime. 

I went through elite educational courses in North Korea, which could not even be dreamed of 

by ordinary citizens there. At the age of 14, Twas sent to China for a special elite educational 

program. More than 20 years of the past 55 years of my life, were very privileged by North 

Korean standards. I lived and worked in foreign countries such as China, Denmark, Sweden 

and the United Kingdom. The North Korean system provided me with all kinds of political 

privileges and economic benefits during this time and, in the course of my last posting, I was 

fortunate enough to live in the UK with my wife and two sons. 

1 
9


27389a-2.eps

z 

Throughout my life, my family members and relatives were all dedicated true communists. 

Ironically, however, I ended up deserting that system and ideology, and I am living in South 

Korea - where I do not have any friends or relatives. And, today, I am even testifying at the 

United States Congress, which Thad always been taught to fight against. 

The reason why I gave up all the privileges and economic benefits was that I felt I could not 

let my sons lead a life like me, as a modern-day slave. I believed the best legacy I could leave 

for my sons was to give them the freedom that is so common to everyone in America. Had we 

not defected, I feared that someday my sons would have cursed me for forcing them back to 

North Korea. They were used to online gaming, Facebook messaging, email and internet news. 

T believed my sons would suffer a lot if they returned to the North Korean system. Indeed, how 

could any boys raised in the London education system and familiar with freedom of thought 

ever go back and re-acclimatize to life in North Korea? I could not confiscate freedom and 

enjoyment ofliberty from them. T could not take back the happy smiles of my sons by bringing 

them back to North Korea. T could not force my sons to pretend to be loyal to Kim Jong Un 

and the North Korean system and to shout 'long live the supreme leader Kim Jong Unl,' 'long 

live the socialist paradise of the DPRK' -like I did all my life 

As a North Korean diplomat, everyday activities and services were like leading a ceaseless 

double-life, which was psychologically difficult. I had to pretend to be loyal to the Kim Jong 

Un regime, even though my heart did not agree. T often was asked questions by my British 

friends which caught me flat footed. Trying to justify the North Korean system when, deep 

down, I knew their concerns were fair and legitimate. They asked me things such as: 

• "How could Kim Jong Un persecute his own uncle?" 

z 
10


27389a-3.eps

3 

• "Why does North Korea continue to appeal for humanitarian aid while pouring 

hundreds of millions of dollars into its nuclear and missile development?" 

• "Communism has always opposed a dynastic transfer of power, so how then does the 

Kim family's hereditary leadership system prevail so long in North Korea?" 

While dealing with these kinds of questions was always painful, they made me increasingly 

realize the deep-rooted contradictions upon which the entire North Korean system is built. 

You might think that living as a member of the elite class in North Korea is all about luxury 

goods, fine wines and abuse of power. Yet, the reality for many privileged people in Pyongyang 

is far ditierent. For example, all high-ranking leaders have to live collectively in separated 

apartments, according to their rank. Moreover, getting promoted within this system actually 

requires more sacrifices, reduced freedoms and an increasing risk of your life - even though 

you may enjoy more economic benefits as a result. Indeed, if it is discovered that a senior elite 

may have different ideas or express private dissatisfactions, then he or she could be subject to 

persecution. And as you all know, even the members of the Kim's family have been subject to 

this type of persecution. Such was the case with the killing of Kim Jung Un's uncle Jang Song 

Thaek and half-brother Kim Jong Nam. 

Beyond these high-profile incidents, much more has been going on beneath the surface over 

the past five years, hundreds of cadres have been persecuted without due process. For example, 

the families of former North Korean Ambassadors to Cuba and Malaysia were sent to prison 

camps and nobody knows whether they are now alive or dead. The former North Korean 

Ambassador to Sweden and the former North Korean Ambassador and deputy Ambassador to 

UNESCO were also forced to return back to Pyongyang and expelled from the Foreign 

Ministry after the death of Jang Song Thaek. 

3 
11


27389a-4.eps

4 

While on the swface the Kim Jong Un regime seems to have consolidated its power through 

this reign of terror, simultaneously there are great and unexpected changes taking place within 

North Korea. Contrary to the ofticial policy and wish of the regime, the free markets are 

flourishing. As more and more people get used to free and capitalist-style markets, the state 

owned socialist economic system becomes increasingly forgotten about. The welfare system 

of North Korea has long collapsed and millions of civil servants, army officers, and security 

forces are dependent on bribes and state asset embezzlement for their survival. 

The citizens do not care about state propaganda but increasingly watch illegally imported South 

Korean movies and dramas. The domestic system of control is weakening as the days go by. 

Back in 2010, during the Arab Spring, many experts said it would be impossible to imagine 

such similar events taking place in North Korea. These changes, however, make it increasingly 

possible to think about civilian uprising in North Korea. As more and more people gradually 

become infonned about the reality of their living conditions, the North Korean government 

will either have to change and adapt in positive ways for its citizens, or to face the consequences 

of their escalating dissatisfaction. Until now, the North Korean system has prevailed through 

an effective and credible reign of terror and by almost perfectly preventing the free-t1ow of 

outside information. 

Today, Kim Jong Un thinks that only nuclear weapons and lCBMs can help him avert the 

continuing disintegration of the North Korean system. He also thinks that the existence of a 

prosperous and democratic South Korea so close to the border is, by itself, a major threat 

towards his dynasty. While Kim Jong Un has already long had the tools to destroy South Korea 

effectively, he also believes it is necessary to drive American forces out of the peninsula. And 

4 
12


27389a-5.eps

5 

this can be done, he believes, by being able to credibly threaten the continental United States 

with nuclear weapons. On top of the thousands of artillery pieces and short-range missile 

capabilities long held on the North Korean side, the potential deployment of battle-ready 

nuclear ICBMs means the threat is not only towards South Korea, but also towards America. 

In face of this emerging situation, the U.S. government is now pursuing a policy of 'maximum 

pressure and engagement'. However, it will take some time to assess the effectiveness of the 

current economic sanctions and campaign of diplomatic isolation. As we wait to see the 

outcome, we should seek to continue the momentum and even expand targeted sanctions until 

the North Korean regime comes back to the dialogue table for denuclearisation. 

Tn face of the emerging threat, we should strengthen the U.S.-ROK alliance and enhance 

military preparedness in order to prevent potential nuclear and ICBM provocations by North 

Korea. The US and ROK Governments should enhance the level of their coordination and 

communication under the slogan of'We go together.' Tt is a long established dialogue strategy 

of North Korea to exclude South Korea while communicating only with the US. The US and 

South Korean Governments should frustrate this North Korea strategy through strong 

concerted co-ordination. 

Frankly, Kim Jong Un is not fully aware of the strength and might of American military power. 

Because of this misunderstanding, Kim Jong Un genuinely believes that he can break the 

sanctions regime apart once he compels Washington to accept North Korea's new status after 

successfully completing the development of his ICBM program and putting the new missiles 

into deployment. 

5 
13


27389a-6.eps

6 

Some people do not believe in soft power, but only in military options. But it is necessary to 

reconsider whether we have tried all non-military options before we decide that military action 

against North Korea is all that is left. Before any military action is taken, 1 think it is necessary 

to meet Kim Jong Un at least once to understand his thinking and to try to convince him that 

he would be destroyed if he continues his current direction. 

We cannot change the policy of terror of the Kim Jong Un regime. But we can educate North 

Korean population to stand up by disseminating outside information However, is the United 

States really doing enough in this regard? The U.S. is spending billions of dollars to cope with 

the military threat. Yet how much does the U.S. spend each year on information activities 

involving North Korea in a year? Unfortunately, it may be tiny fraction 

Yet we now know that the communist systems of the Soviet Union and East European countries 

crumbled as a result of the dissemination of outside information and the subsequent changes in 

thinking caused among people within those systems. Indeed, the Berlin wall would not have 

easily collapsed ifEast German people did not ret,>ularly watch West German TV. To sum up, 

much more needs to be done to increase the flows of information into North Korea. German 

reunification could not have been achieved if the Hungarian government did not open its border 

with Austria to provide an exit route for the East German people. 

Now some 30,000 North Korea defectors have come to South Korea. ln China, however, tens 

of thousands of North Korean defectors are living without papers, under the shadows, and are 

being physically or sexually exploited. While the U.S. should continue urging China and 

Russia to support more economic sanctions, it should also do more to stop Beijing repatriating 

defectors back to North Korea. 

6 
14


27389a-7.eps

7 

The world was united to abolish the South African apartheid. Now it is time for the world to 

stop the widespread and systematic human rights violations in North Korea, which are 

tantamount to the crimes committed by the Nazis. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening statement. Thank you again for this opportunity and 

I look forward to your questions. 

7 
15

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you very much, Mr. Thae. 

You made clear in your remarks that as more and more people 

gradually become informed about the reality of their living conditions and what they are told is a paradise but they found out how 

people are living in South Korea or in the rest of the world that 

North Korea will either have to change and adapt in positive ways 

for its citizens or to face the consequences of the people’s escalating 

dissatisfaction. 

As you said, it has been a powerful impact in Eastern Europe 

and the Soviet Union and can have the same effect in North Korea. 

So my question is what kind of messages should we focus on sending into North Korea? 

Who are the best? Is it former defectors who have a story to tell, 

who can report the news of what they have seen in the outside 

world? 

And should our message to, as you said, the elites—should our 

message to the elites be different than the message that we would 

help people send to the common people in North Korea? 

You have made clear that both are increasingly dissatisfied with 

the regime. So what would be your suggestion? 

Mr. THAE. First, the North Korean system can only be in place 

by making its leader a god. So we have to find out where is the 

Achilles heel. 

Now, after 5 years in power, Kim Jong-un still cannot tell the 

North Korean people his date of birth. Nobody in North Korea 

knows his date of birth. 

Nobody in North Korea knows who his mother is. Nobody in 

North Korea knows his half-brother, Kim Jong-nam. Nobody in 

North Korea knows that he is the only third son of Kim Jong-il and 

now Kim Jong-un is brainwashing the North Korean population 

that he is the only bloodline of Paektu Mountain. 

But after 5 years of this kind of continuous brainwashing he still 

cannot provide the North Korean population with a single photo 

with his grandfather, Kim Il-sung. Why? 

Because he was a hidden boy by his father. He was kept secretly 

and silently in Switzerland throughout the years. But a majority 

of the North Korean population do not know this fact. 

So we should disseminate the information about him first, who 

he is—why, even now, Kim Jong-un cannot present even a single 

photo with his grandfather. 

Because his grandfather himself didn’t know the existence of this 

boy. The majority of the North Korean people do not know that his 

father, Kim Jong-il, had several ladies to live with. 

So we should tell the North Korean people that Kim Jong-un and 

his father, Kim Jong-il and his grandfather, Kim Il-song, the whole 

member of Kim dynasty are not gods. 

That is the first thing we should do and we should disseminate 

the basic concepts of freedom and human rights. North Korea is a 

country with a system of classification. 

The population of North Korea is divided into different classes 

and we have to tell the North Korean population how stupid this 

system is. It is similar to a feudal class system from several hundred years ago. 

16

So we have many things to tell the North Korean people that it 

is not a paradise. It is not a socialist welfare system. It is the worst 

inhumane system in human history. 

Chairman ROYCE. In terms of our dialogue with Beijing, what 

should we be pressing Beijing on with respect to North Korea? 

Mr. THAE. I think we should continue the current momentum to 

inducing the Chinese Government to support economic sanctions 

against North Korea. But that is not enough. 

We should urge the Chinese Government not to repatriate North 

Korean defectors back to North Korea. The Chinese Government 

knows well that once these defectors are repatriated back to North 

Korea, they would be the subject of torture. 

They would be the subject of enforcement of labor. So we should 

let the Chinese Government open the route to South Korea for all 

the hiding North Korean defectors in China. 

I mentioned a little bit about the cooperation between the West 

German Government and Hungarian Government during the process of German reunification. 

If the Chinese Government helps North Korean defectors to go 

freely to South Korea, I think that there could be a massive exodus 

of North Korean population to China through their borders with 

China. 

Chairman ROYCE. To South Korea through China? 

Mr. THAE. Yes, that is right. And if the Chinese open its routes 

for defectors to South Korea, I think the North Korean system 

would collapse in a very short span of time. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Thae. 

We go now to Mr. Eliot Engel, our ranking member. 

Mr. ENGEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Thae, your comments are very riveting, very interesting, and 

very important to give us an insight. 

You know, when I was there, Kim Jong-il was the leader and I 

know that he was referred to as the Dear Leader and his father 

was referred to as the Great Leader—Kim Il-song. 

I am wondering if Kim Jung-un has a similar title. You walk into 

every room. There were pictures of the two of them on the wall. 

It was something very, very scary and eerie. Is that still the case 

with Kim Jong-un? 

Mr. THAE. Of course, and Kim Jong even is upgrading his propaganda campaign to make him appear as a god of the North Korean 

people. 

Mr. ENGEL. Thank you. So let me ask you, is there any scenario 

you envision in which North Korea might freeze or dismantle its 

long-range missile or nuclear weapons program? What would be 

the best means to persuade North Korea to do so? 

Mr. THAE. I think, first, Kim Jong-un still believes that he can 

achieve this goal. So we should continue to tell the North Korean 

leadership and, if possible, Kim Jong-un himself that America will 

not accept North Korea as a nuclear-armed state. 

North Korea has seen how India and Pakistan achieved that goal 

and they want to follow the example of India and Pakistan. But we 

should clarify that this will not be the case for North Korea. 

Mr. ENGEL. From what you know about the internal dynamics of 

the North Korean political and economic systems, how might inVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:09 Nov 30, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_FULL\110117\27389 SHIRL
17

creased external pressures such as unilateral and multilateral 

sanctions lead the North Korean Government to change course? 

Would it? If not, why not? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, as I’ve said, the current economic sanction so far 

is not enough. So we should increase more targeted sanctions. And 

second, we have to wait and see the effectiveness of the current 

economic sanctions. 

North Korea is used to that kind of sanctions and North Korea 

has a certain amount of stockpiles of war. So we have to wait until 

when North Korea opens its doors for war stockpiles. 

When North Korea starts to open its war stockpiles of food and 

oil, then we may see how long North Korea can sustain. 

Mr. ENGEL. Thank you. 

You know, one of the things that shocked us when we first came 

into Pyongyang were these massive billboards—propaganda, political propaganda ones—and one of them had—I don’t know if Joe 

Wilson is here—he was with me. 

But he took a picture of one of those posters and it was a North 

Korean soldier putting a bayonet in the head of an American soldier, and we knew it was an American soldier because his helmet 

said USA on it. 

It was very, very frightening, very scary. And we mentioned it, 

of course, to all the North Korean authorities. But one thing stuck 

in my mind. 

When we were talking about the nuclear program, one of the 

higher—we never did meet with the Dear Leader but we met with 

what I think is the next person whose name I think was also Kim 

and we were told blankly, and it is the one thing I came home 

from, they said—he said Saddam Hussein didn’t have nuclear 

weapons and look how he wound up—look what he wound up. 

And it really-really showed me a bit of the mind set about how 

they really think that the nuclear weapons are the key to being 

players. Otherwise, South Korea would run circles around them because of the prosperity and the economic opportunities and the dynamism of the Seoul regime. 

But they, even back then—this was probably about 12 years 

ago—talked about nuclear weapons as their key to success in the 

future. Is that still the mind set? 

Mr. THAE. Yes. Still the Kim Jong-un regime believes that they 

can guarantee the permanent system of North Korea by nuclear 

and ICBM because they think that a prosperous and democratic 

South Korea itself is threatening the existence of North Korea 

itself. 

That is why they think and believe that ICBM tipped with nuclear weapons in the guarantee for their survival. 

Mr. ENGEL. Let me ask you one brief question. My final question 

is have you observed any changes in North Korea in recent years 

that might suggest that an expanded United States information 

campaign targeting audiences inside North Korea might be more 

successful than past efforts. 

How would you go about changing North Korea’s perception of 

the outside world? 

Mr. THAE. When the South Korean cultural content first arrived 

in North Korea through smuggling, North Korean authorities tried 

18

every measure to prevent it even by conducting public executions 

and rampant arrest of the people who watch South Korean movies 

and dramas. 

But whatever measures they take, the demand for South Korean 

cultural content increased. So the North Korean regime learned 

that that kind of enforcement cannot solve the problem. 

That’s why for the past few years they are now developing their 

own footage to prevent the North Korean population from watching 

South Korean movies and dramas. How? 

They decided to open the film archives of Kim Jong-il and decided to filter for those foreign films from former Soviet Union and 

former socialist eastern European countries to find out the films 

which can meet the demand of enjoyment for North Korean people. 

So now if you are in the Pyongyang streets there are a lot of 

stores where they sell those DVD discs with hundreds of Russian 

films, former East German films, Chinese films and even these 

days American cartoons like Tom & Jerry, Lion King or Beauty 

and the Beast, of these even cartoons for the children. 

So they learned that in order to fill the demand for outside cultural contents they should do something. So that is why this 

proved that the North Korean regime is very afraid of dissemination of information. 

So I think if we continue to disseminate and if we continue to 

make tailor-made content for North Korea then I think we can 

make a change in North Korea. 

Up until now, those cultural contents of South Korea which 

North Korean people are watching are the contents which are produced for South Korean audience, not for North Koreans. So they 

just watch it for their amusement and entertainment. 

But those cultural content so far do not actually relate the North 

Korean citizens’ way of thinking. Those cultural contents cannot 

make North Koreans critically analyze the life in North Korea. 

That’s why we should make tailor-made contents which can educate the North Korean population. And I think it is time we should 

invest to make that kind of very simple tailor-made content which 

can tell the basic concepts of freedom, human rights, and democracy. 

Mr. ENGEL. Thank you very much. 

Chairman ROYCE. We go to Mr. Chris Smith of New Jersey. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you so very much. And Mr. Thae, thank you 

for your courage and for being here providing your insights and observations. 

I remember during the worst days of the Cold War it used to be 

said that the Iron Curtain isn’t soundproof, and your idea of really 

ratcheting up the freedom broadcasting couldn’t come at a more 

timely point in this terrible escalating conflict. So thank you for 

that, and that has to be followed up on. 

Let me ask you two things. First, you’ve made a stunning observation and recommendation that if China were to receive defectors 

and facilitate their passage into South Korea that that could truly 

debilitate this dictatorship and lead to its demise. My question—

China, and I’ve held several hearings on this—China violates the 

Refugee Convention with impunity. 

19

The whole idea of rapprochement—they send people back who 

didn’t go to the gulag or they benefitted by trafficking those people 

who come in, particularly the women, into sex trafficking and labor 

trafficking. 

So they are making money out of it and they are also violating 

the Refugee Convention. My hope is that your words to the Chinese 

Governments as well as our own Governments will act upon that 

because that is a very benign and certainly a way of trying to deescalate and lead to an end to this escalating crisis. So thank you 

for that. You might want to speak to that further. 

Secondly, we underestimate the whole idea of Juche and the cult 

of personality. Emperor Hirohito and the fanaticism of imperial 

Japan was based on the belief that he was God and, as you have 

said, that is exactly how they look at the Kims, particularly Kim 

Il-sung, and I think there is a gross under appreciation of how that 

leads to fanaticism and the willingness to die for now the new Kim 

because he is God. 

And I wonder if you could shed some insights into whether or not 

the people still believe that and to what degree, particularly in the 

army. We know they have 1 million people active, about 5 million 

or so ready reserve. I mean, that is a potent force, coupled with nuclear, where they are willing to die for God. 

Mr. THAE. First of all, about the defectors’ case in China—if you 

visit the Chinese border with North Korea, you can easily learn 

that the Chinese Government has built up the extensive network 

of catching the North Korean defectors along its borders and if a 

North Korean defector is caught, then he or she could immediately 

be repatriated. 

And if we visit those borders these days, the Chinese have built 

more fences, more river banks in order to prevent the vast exodus 

of the North Korean population. 

Now the Chinese Government is saying that they are very much 

concerned of any possible refugee crisis if the North Korean system 

collapses. But that is not really the truth because North Korean defectors and the North Korean population, they have a place to go 

once they arrive China. 

They have South Korea, which would welcome to accommodate 

all North Korean defectors from China. So the Chinese argument 

that they would cover or they would be burdened by all the economic costs of North Korean refugees is not true because there is 

the Government of South Korea which can accommodate all those 

North Korean defectors. 

So we continue to ask the Chinese Government to open the exit 

route for North Korean defectors to go to South Korea. We should 

ask the Chinese Government to establish camps for North Korean 

defectors for temporary stay and for continuation of their journey 

to South Korea. 

I think that is the thing we should do. And China is the member 

of Refugee Convention. That’s why, as a big country, the Chinese 

Government has an obligation to observe its international obligation by letting North Korean defectors to go to China. 

And the second thing, the personal culture in North Korea, it is 

really, really surprising because in North Korea when you reach 

20

the age of four or five from the age of kindergarten you are brainwashed. 

For instance, every morning the young children of 3 or 4 years 

are forced to bow in front of the portraits of Kim Jong-il, Kim Ilsung, and Kim Jong-un. Then they are offered a cup of milk. 

They should stand up and express their thanks before they drink 

the milk to Kim Jong-un. When there is a harvest of apples, the 

apples will be distributed to the population as a gift of Kim Jongun. 

So the Kim Jong-un regime established a full scale stupid brainwashing system in order to depict Kim Jong-un as the god. 

So I think we should try or concentrate efforts to educate the 

North Korean people that Kim Jong-un is not a god. He is just a 

normal human being and the Kim family is not the family of the 

god. 

And we should continue to tell the North Korean people—we 

should touch the Achilles heel of Kim Jong-un regime. That is my 

viewpoint. 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. Albio Sires of New Jersey is next in the queue. 

Mr. SIRES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You know, I am fascinated by your comments but I am not really 

surprised because I’ve seen the indoctrination process in other 

countries and how it works. 

I am concerned with the nuclear program. It seems that they 

have developed this nuclear program very rapidly. Can you talk a 

little bit about who’s assisting them? Because it seems that it is so 

rapid that somebody had to assist them. 

Is it China? Is it Iran? Is it Russia? In your opinion, is anybody 

involved in assisting with their nuclear proliferation? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, it is common knowledge that North Korea’s basic 

knowledge of nuclear weapons all came from the former Soviet 

Union. 

In late of 1960s and the ’70s it was the policy of the former Soviet Union to control all the nuclear experts and nuclear industries 

of former socialist countries by inviting and educating all those nuclear experts in Russia. 

So North Korea started to send its young nuclear experts to Russia’s nuclear institute from late of 1950s. So, actually, North Korea 

accumulated the vast knowledge of making these nuclear weapons 

from Russia. 

But, of course, at that time the Soviet Union Government did not 

intend to tell North Korean nuclear experts how to make nuclear 

weapons but they educated the North Korean nuclear experts in 

order to expand their nuclear power industry and in order to control the whole socialist world of nuclear energy. 

But the North Korean regime took advantage of this education 

system built in ’50s and ’60s and they accumulated the knowledge 

on how to make it. 

But in the past 5 years, we witnessed that there is all of a sudden a kind of quick acceleration of this process of ICBM and nuclear development. So how was it possible? 

We learned that in March 2013 the Kim Jong-un regime, the 

Workers’ Party of Korea, adopted a policy of simultaneously develVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:09 Nov 30, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_FULL\110117\27389 SHIRL
21

oping nuclear weapons and the economy, which is called the 

Pyongyang policy. 

Then what is the difference between Kim Jong-un’s policy of nuclear development with his father and with his grandfather? 

Throughout the history of North Korea, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jongil never stopped developing nuclear program. 

But the main difference between Kim Jong-un and Kim Jong-il 

is that Kim Jong-un wants to achieve that goal in a very short 

span of time and in a very open way. 

During Kim Jong-il’s period, the North Korean regime developed 

a nuclear program under the pretext of denuclearizing the Korean 

Peninsula. So in other words, when the Chinese wants to force 

North Korea to stop it, they always justify to the Chinese Government that, hey, Chinese brother, we need this nuclear weapon in 

order to lend the ears of Americans. 

So our final goal is not the acquisition of nuclear weapons but 

to reach a kind of deal with Americans. So they cheated the Chinese again and again and again. But these days, no. The justification is different. 

North Korea openly stated to China that we want to achieve this 

goal openly at any cost. And secondly, from March 2013, the North 

Korean regime decided to invest all available materials and finance 

for the completion of nuclear weapons. 

So that is the main difference between the present North Korean 

regime and the previous Kim Jong-un’s period. 

Mr. SIRES. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. We go now to Congressman Dana Rohrabacher 

of California. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 

thank you very much to our witness today. I appreciate the insights that you are providing us. 

A couple of things that you’ve mentioned I’d like to get some clarification on. Do the people of North Korea know that Kim Jong-un, 

if I am pronouncing it correctly, was educated in Switzerland and 

at an elite private school? Do they know that? 

Mr. THAE. A majority of the North Korean population didn’t 

know that he was educated in Switzerland. No. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Don’t we have broadcasts going into North 

Korea? Why would the people of North Korea not know that what 

he is doing to them he was spared and that he lived in a totally 

different life than what they are expected to live? Are broadcasts 

not being aggressive enough if the people of North Korea don’t 

know that? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, but maybe about those—you know, the balloons 

of the pamphlets or the numbers of the radios have reached inside 

of North Korea in secret ways. 

But so far, the effect of that kind of devices is not very efficient. 

So I think in order to vastly disseminate the information to the 

North Korean people I think we should develop new ways to do it. 

For instance, one thing I have in mind is that now we can have 

a kind of satellite TV transmissions for North Korean people and 

we can smuggle in the small devices like DMB things which is the 

similar size of smart phone or radio so let the North Koreans watch 

22

the South Korean and American TV networks through that kind of 

device by the transmission from satellite. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. That sounds like a—frankly, that sounds like 

an effective use of money as compared to some of the other things 

that we are doing to try to deal with this threat because if we do 

not deal with this threat we are putting not only the people of 

South Korea but putting the American people in severe jeopardy 

here—in danger. 

Let me ask—you mentioned—how is religion treated in North 

Korea? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, the North Korea system is based on contradictions. For instance, the North Korean constitution allows the freedom of belief. 

But in North Korean society where the constitution does not prevail. The charter of the Workers’ Party of Korea and the teachings 

by Kim Jong-un prevails over the constitution. 

So if you read the charter of Workers’ Party of Korea and the 

teachings of Kim Jong-un and the works of Kim Il-sung and Kim 

Jong-il, it clarified very clearly that two-tier ideology and Kim Ilsung and Kim Jong-ilism should be the only idea of North Korean 

society. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Do they permit people to go to church? 

Mr. THAE. There are a few churches only in Pyongyang just for 

show for foreign audiences, not for North Korean people. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Do the North Korean people have, as I have 

understood has happened in China in the beginning, worship services in their homes? 

Do they get together and pray and is there a religious movement 

in—South Korea has a tremendous expansion of faith and is that 

anywhere experienced in North Korea? 

Mr. THAE. If that kind of practice is detected by the regime, then 

it could be the imminent subject of persecution or public execution. 

That is why I don’t think that the people would gather for that 

kind of the religious practice. But I am not quite sure whether 

there are individuals who do that kind of belief practices secretly 

inside their homes. But in my life, I haven’t seen that kind of secret practice of religious belief. 

Mr. ROHRABACHER. Well, we need to be the champion of these oppressed people around the world, especially when it comes to Christians who are oppressed like this because our own national security 

will be enhanced by that. 

So doing what’s right by religious people being persecuted for 

their religion can probably help us, and thank you very much for 

sharing your insights with us today. 

Mr. THAE. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. Representative Bill Keating of Massachusetts. 

Mr. KEATING. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And Mr. Thae, thank you 

very much for your desire and courage to be here. 

Just this morning I was at a breakfast of experts discussing 

North Korea’s threat to us as well as their rationale for many of 

their activities. 

They suggested that their ICBM and their nuclear development 

was to preserve the regime from international threats but also they 

said it is there for domestic support as well. 

23

And you had said there is an escalating dissatisfaction among 

the people. So could you explain their rationale and saying is there 

a group that sees support of the regime because of that nuclear development? 

Mr. THAE. I don’t understand your last question. What was it? 

Mr. KEATING. That Kim Jong-un is developing nuclear weapons 

and ICBMs just to gather support and stability in his regime in his 

country, within it. 

You said that it is de-escalating, his support. So what is the rationale as other people that see that development as stabilizing and 

give the regime support as a result? 

Mr. THAE. Yes. The first, Kim Jong-un is very well aware that 

the North Korean system is in the process of disintegration. That 

is why he looked for any solution to do it and he believes that a 

ICBM tipped with nuclear weapons can provide him a kind of legitimacy of the leadership for next several decades. Why? Yes——

Mr. KEATING. So the people inside feel that this will help them 

from an outside threat, as they perceive it. Is that correct? 

Mr. THAE. Both ways. Kim Jong-un thinks that with the nuclear 

weapons he can guarantee the sustainability of his rule. 

And the second thing is that in order to get the legitimacy of 

long-term leadership, something that he wants to convince the 

whole North Korean elite and the people that he is the one who 

made North Korea a nuclear power and he wants to convince the 

North Korean population that once he acquired these nuclear 

weapons he can easily break the sanctions scheme with America. 

Mr. KEATING. Okay. Thank you very much. That’s the rationale. 

This is a really tough question I am going to ask you, one we 

should all be asking, frankly, because there is a great deal of discussion, even this morning, that there is indeed a likelihood of military intervention preemptively by the U.S. as a defense. 

And here is my question: What’s going to happen when the missiles stop? What’s the next day going to be like? Who is going to 

be in charge? How are we going to keep stability? 

What is China going to do? What are we going to do with the 

human impact of that as well? As someone that has been in Europe, will our partners be on board? What are your thinkings on 

this very important issue? 

Mr. THAE. After Kim Jong-un finishes his completion of nuclear 

weapons, then he wants to open a dialogue and deal with America. 

He would continue to blackmail America with a possible nuclear 

war with America and may ask America to pull American forces 

from South Korea. 

Mr. KEATING. Right. I apologize. But what would happen—here 

is the scenario, that if we did that——

Chairman ROYCE. If I could just interrupt for a minute. He has 

a follow-up point that he wants to make about what—I think about 

what would happen next to South Korea if that happens. Then we 

will continue with your question. 

Mr. KEATING. Oh, if I could give him time to answer that. Thank 

you. 

Mr. THAE. Yes. So what he thinks—what his roadmap and strategy is like this. Once he has this nuclear weapon and ICBM, he 

wants to make a deal with the Americans by asking for scaledVerDate 0ct 09 2002 15:09 Nov 30, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\WORK\_FULL\110117\27389 SHIRL
24

down joint military exercises against North Korea and, finally, pull 

American forces out from the Korean Peninsula. 

If America does not accept his offer, then he may continue to 

blackmail, like, another test fire or ICBM or something like that 

so that it will compel Washington to accept his demands. 

And Kim Jong-un thinks that if American forces are out of the 

Korean Peninsula, the next day the foreign investment would follow the American forces, and then when the foreign investments 

are out of South Korea then the elite and the companies of South 

Korea would follow the exit. 

So he thinks that he can create a kind of massive exodus in 

South Korean system if he has these nuclear weapons. That is 

what North Korean regime learned from the case of South Vietnam, when America pulled its troops out from South Vietnam in 

1974. 

At that time, I think we should remember that the army of 

South Vietnam was number four in military terms. But when 

America pulled its forces from South Vietnam, later the foreign investments left. When foreign investments left South Vietnam then 

the elite of South Vietnam ruling class started to flee. So within 

2 years, within 2 years in South Vietnam there was a kind of huge 

trend of fleeing. 

So North Vietnam waited for 2 years and then started an offensive in 1976 and all of a sudden the huge military establishment 

of South Vietnam was useless to defend its system. 

So the North Korean regime learned all these processes. That’s 

why they want to follow the same suit on South Korea. That’s why 

with that ICBM they want to change the current tide of struggle 

between North Korea and South Korea. 

Mr. KEATING. Wow. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman ROYCE. Mr. Mike McCaul of Texas. 

Mr. MCCAUL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I think this is one of the most complex challenging foreign policy 

issues of our time and whenever a power becomes a nuclear power 

you can’t take it away from them. 

And we saw that happen in Pakistan in the A.Q. Khan network 

proliferating to Iran, North Korea. I think this is the result of a 

policy of neglect in prior administrations, both Republican and 

Democrat, not dealing with North Korea and now we are in a situation where we are today where I don’t see a whole lot of good options on the table. 

It is a fact that he has this ICBM capability, that he’s miniaturized the nuclear warheads. By all accounts, the IC, while maybe 

not definitive, we think he may have that capability now as well. 

And I talked to the Ambassador from Japan the other day and 

they are terrified of the prospects. I don’t know now to get rid of 

this guy, and we talk about regime change. We talk about opening 

channels, letting people defect and a lot of different things. 

We know China is the strongest country to deal with North 

Korea and it is in their best interest, in their back yard. And yet, 

we are seeing satellite photographs after the U.N. sanctions was 

voted defying those sanctions with boats going back and forth between China and North Korea. 

25

So that hasn’t had a whole lot of impact. So, you know, it has 

been very interesting. I mean, let me commend you for your courage coming here today in light of the dangers and the obvious risks 

that you’re taking. I think you’re a courageous individual. 

But they are almost deified, this dynasty. So I don’t—I just—how 

do we change that? First question. 

Second one is if the military option is on the table and Secretary 

Mattis has warned against it, but if that happened what would the 

Peninsula look like? What would be the aftermath of the military 

option? 

Mr. THAE. The first, I think many people do not understand why 

the North Korean regime believes that nuclear weapons can solve 

their problems and why Kim Jong-un’s regime is so much obsessed 

with this kind of nuclear weapons program, which can do nothing 

but all those, you know, sanctions or whatever. 

But from the perspective of the North Korean regime and the 

Kim Jong-un regime, so far they really believe in this kind of goal 

can be achieved. 

So for instance, now let’s review about a U.S. and R.O.K. military alliance. Let’s compare the military alliance between South 

Korea and America and a military alliance between China and 

North Korea. 

The North Korean regime learned that there are a lot of loopholes in the military alliance between South Korea and America. 

For instance, in that military alliance treaty there is not any clause 

of compulsory involvement in military alliance with South Korea. 

So if a state of war or any kind of war happens on the Korean 

Peninsula, both sides would discuss. That is the clause. There is 

nothing legally binding. 

But if you read the North Korean military alliance with China, 

there is a compulsory clause. If war happens on Korean Peninsula, 

then Chinese side will automatically naturally be involved in this 

war. 

And secondly, if we see the military alliance treaty between 

South Korea and America, there is a kind of very loose clause how 

this treaty goes on and how this treaty breaks down. 

If one party of this treaty says goodbye 1 year in advance, then 

this military alliance would disappear. That is the present reality. 

But if we read the North Korean military alliance with China, it 

is a kind of divorce agreement. 

If one of the parties do not agree to break this treaty, then this 

treaty would last again and again and again. So I think we have 

to cover up all those loopholes in military alliance between R.O.K. 

and America. 

That is why North Koreans still believe that if they have these 

nuclear weapons and continue to blackmail and it can make the 

strategists in Washington to think whether America is ready to 

sacrifice their citizens in return for protecting the whole South 

Korea territory and it strongly believes to do that because they 

learned from the history about the lessons of Acheson line. 

In January 1950, then the Secretary of State, Acheson, drew that 

Acheson line. Actually, that is the line of defense between South 

Korea and Japan. So at that time, America did not include South 

Korea as their own sphere of protection. 

26

That prompted the decision of Korean War by Stalin and Kim Ilsung? Why? Because Soviet Union succeeded in nuclear tests in 

August 1949 and after the success of nuclear tests by Soviet Union 

the strategists in Washington thought how to prevent any kind of 

accidental nuclear war with the Soviet Union. 

So they decided to draw a line of defense and unfortunately, they 

drew that red line not on 38th Parallel but the place on the sea 

between South Korea and Japan. So from these precedents of Vietnam case, Korean War case, even Chinese case, because the Chinese Communist Party also succeeded in driving American forces 

out from Taiwan in 1979 by completing its ICBM program. 

So from these precedents in history, North Korean communists 

learned that once they acquired this technology and means to attack America and if they continue to blackmail until America and 

Washington accepts their deal, they can prevail in this game. That 

is their strong belief. 

And the second thing about the military, the option, of course, I 

strongly believe that if there is any preventive or surgical strike or 

whatever, I think the war will be won by America and South 

Korea. 

There is no doubt about it. But we have to see the human sacrifice from this military option. Now there are tens of thousands of 

North Korean artilleries and short-range missiles are ready to fire 

at any moment along the military demarcation line and North Korean officers are trained to press the button without any further instructions from the general command if something happens on 

their side. 

So if there is any sound of fire or bomb or strike from Americans, 

the military artilleries and short-range missiles will fire against 

South Korea. And we have to remember that tens of millions of 

South Korean populations are living 70 to 80 kilometers away from 

this military demarcation line, a very short distance of range of 

fire—and nobody can calculate but I think certain human sacrifice 

would happen because of this military option. 

So as I’ve said, there are tremendous changes that are taking 

place inside North Korea in spite of this reign of terror by the Kim 

Jong-un regime. If we are determined to use and expand our soft 

power, I think one day we can reach the same goal we achieved 

with the former Soviet Union and those former East European socialist countries. 

Mr. MCCAUL. Very insightful. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. Representative Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii. 

Ms. GABBARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you very much for your courage and your openness and 

being here to share your story and experience not only with us but 

with everyone who is watching this. 

To follow up on your last statement, so what you are saying is 

that if there is even a very limited preemptive military strike from 

the United States that this automatic response using the artillery 

and short-range missiles would occur. Is that right? 

Mr. THAE. Yes, that is right. 

Ms. GABBARD. You spoke earlier in your testimony about exhausting all diplomatic measures before turning toward military 

27

action and you mentioned about the need to meet with Kim Jongun directly. 

Mr. THAE. Yes. That is right. 

Ms. GABBARD. What would need to happen in that conversation 

to create even just the beginnings of a process that would result 

ultimately in dismantling and denuclearization of the Peninsula? 

And how would that be different from previous failed efforts in the 

past? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, I think, first of all, we should tell Kim Jong-un 

that the North Korean nuclear case is quite different from India, 

Pakistan, or China because India and Pakistan achieved their goal 

without making any enemies with the big powers like America, 

China, or Russia. 

So that is why in reality there was not big country who was so 

serious to stop the nuclear arming in India and Pakistan. But the 

North Korea case is different because North Korea wants to 

achieve that goal by blackmailing, by threatening America’s interests and the American continent. 

So that is the great difference, though. So we should tell Kim 

Jong-un that his goal to achieve the nuclear status cannot be 

achievable because as long as America will not accept North Korea 

as a nuclear state forever. 

We have to tell him correctly, and we should tell Kim Jong-un 

that America is ready to use all military options if Kim Jong-un 

continues this process and we should tell Kim Jong-un that if Kim 

Jong-un stops this process and gives up his ambition of ICBM and 

nuclear development, America is ready to help Kim Jong-un to 

build his economy and to make North Korea a prosperous country. 

I think that is the point we should directly deliver to Kim Jongun. 

Ms. GABBARD. You know, it has been spoken about how one of 

the major reasons why Kim Jong-un is holding and tightening his 

grip on these nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against any attempts by the United States or others to topple him and his regime, thinking that this will be the only thing that will protect 

him. 

Why is it that if the United States sits down directly with Kim 

Jong-un that you think he will react positively to a message of we 

will help you—make sure that your people and your economy prosper? That doesn’t appear to seem something that he’s been concerned about in the past. 

Mr. THAE. Oh, as I’ve said that Kim Jong-un and the North Korean regime believes that their rival is South Korea, is the biggest 

threat to the North Korean system itself because Kim Jong-un is 

very aware that the North Korean population are watching South 

Korean movies and dramas. 

He knows that the minds of North Koreans are changing toward 

South Korea. So he needs a kind of permanent guarantee to protect 

his dynasty from that kind of gain and he strongly believes that 

nuclear weapons can be used as a kind of very strong defense of 

his dynasty. 

So I think we should tell Kim Jong-un that this cannot be the 

effective way for his sustainability of his leadership and rule in 

North Korea. 

28

Ms. GABBARD. And you’ve talked about a little bit of a change in 

the current in the feeling of the North Korean people. Given the 

threats upon anyone who expresses even a little bit of dissent or 

disagreement, do you think Kim Jong-un or his regime is even 

aware of this change in currents of the North Korean people? 

Mr. THAE. Yes, he’s very well aware of that because he has a 

very good network of reporting of the happenings inside of North 

Korea and so far the Kim Jong-un regime has taken huge measures to prevent the North Korean population from watching South 

Korean movies and dramas. 

But it turned out to be a failure, and also they threw out the system of free market. The North Korean regime tried to prevent the 

escalation of a free market system in North Korea but failed. So 

now North Korea is at the stage of more or less accepting this 

trend of the free marketization process in North Korea. 

So they know quite well of this disintegrating process. 

Chairman ROYCE. We need to go to General Scott Perry of Pennsylvania. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And Mr. Thae, we are impressed by your courage and we are 

privileged to have you here today. 

Would there be any effect at all on North Korea being named a 

state sponsor of terror once again? Would that have any effect 

whatsoever to the regime or their actions? 

Mr. THAE. I think that that can be very helpful because once 

North Korea is reregistered as the state sponsor of terrorism, it can 

be easier to drive North Korea from all international financial systems and we can also convince the other partners of the world to 

detect or stop all those—the channels North Korea uses these days 

to fund their nuclear development. 

Mr. PERRY. It seems to me that a big part of our strategy should 

be and is the relationship with China and North Korea. But it also 

seems to me that China isn’t forthcoming with their agreements. 

They water down the agreements. They don’t follow the agreements that they have. Is China really the lynchpin that we think 

it is? Is it the center of gravity? Can they make the difference? 

If they stop—where China is—90 percent of North Korea’s trade 

is with China. You know, coal alone $1 billion annually. If China 

would live up to its agreements can it have the effect that we hope 

it would with North Korea? Can it bring Kim Jong-un; not the people, unfortunately, but can it bring the regime to its knees? 

Mr. THAE. First of all, I would like to avail this opportunity to 

tell you that during the Trump administration’s short span of time 

America has made a great success in convincing Chinese to take 

more sanctions against North Korea. 

But meanwhile, we should continue to ask the Chinese to stop 

and crack down on all those smuggling networks between North 

Korea and China because if the Chinese Government officially limits the trade with North Korea it can easily produce another negative effect by more smugglings between China and North Korea because along the border line between China and North Korea there 

are hundreds of private traders, small companies who are smuggling and who are involved with dealing these illicit activities with 

North Korea. 

29

And so far, the Chinese Government has been reluctant to crack 

down all these other smuggling networks between China and North 

Korea. 

So I think it is time you should raise the issue of this smuggle 

with the Chinese Government and if Chinese Government further 

upgrades the level of sanctions I think it will create a big pain on 

the Kim Jong-un regime. 

Mr. PERRY. Could that Chinese smuggling be used to our advantage regarding the information flow into North Korea? There is one 

thing to get the information there whether you broadcast, whether 

you somehow smuggle it in, DVDs, thumb drives, what have you, 

but I also wonder about the other side of that equation, the North 

Korean people’s ability to access it. Is that a possibility, since you 

mentioned it? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, it has two aspects. For instance, I think if the possibility of smuggling is expanded there can be more opportunity of 

smuggling these devices into North Korea. 

But on the other end, if the smuggling opportunity is expanded 

I think the North Korean regime will be able to import what they 

wanted. 

But the materials which the North Korea regime wants to import 

are big things like oil or those special—the metals or engines for 

their military and equipment. 

But the things we want to disseminate is the very small things. 

For instance, due to the recent development of ideology, the technology, the devices of these for dissemination is getting smaller and 

smaller. 

For instance, 5 years ago, if you want to disseminate the contents, you should make this size of DVD and this size of USB stick. 

But nowadays, those devices become smaller, around this size of 

a small SD card. So in North Korea, young children call this SD 

card, nose card, because why they call it nose card? If their bodies 

are searched, they can easily put that card inside their nose to 

avoid searching. 

Mr. PERRY. Mr. Thae, may I ask you one question, one more 

question in the short amount of time I have left? Since I’ve been 

a little boy, I’ve heard about American prisoners from Vietnam and 

the Second World War being held in POW camps in North Korea. 

Is there any truth of that, to your knowledge? Would you have 

any knowledge of that? Was it ever discussed? What do you know 

about that, if anything? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, to be honest, I have no idea about it. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. 

Chairman ROYCE. We go now to Representative Norma Torres 

from California. 

Ms. TORRES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Thae, thank you for joining us today. I am trying to comprehend what caused you and the wave of defectors to leave during 

the time that you left versus under the previous Supreme Leader. 

Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Mr. THAE. You mean my case? 

Ms. TORRES. Mm-hmm. 

Mr. THAE. Oh, first of all, I would like to tell the members here 

that I am not the only North Korean diplomat who defected in——

30

Ms. TORRES. It was a wave. Right. 

Mr. THAE. There are more North Korean defectors who—I mean, 

diplomats who defected. But this is the matter of whether they are 

willing to open their identity or not. But, you know, as I have told 

you that I was fortunate to bring my wife and two sons here in——

Ms. TORRES. We have very limited time, sir. 

Mr. THAE. Yes. Yes. 

Ms. TORRES. I apologize. 

Mr. THAE. That’s right. So but out of my colleagues who are also 

diplomats, they have their, you know, their siblings and——

Ms. TORRES. Why now and not before, sir? 

Mr. THAE. Yes. So actually the number of diplomat defections is 

more than we estimate. 

Ms. TORRES. More now or more under the previous——

Mr. THAE. Under previous—yes, I meant in the past 2 or 3 years. 

Ms. TORRES. 2 or 3 years under——

Mr. THAE. Kim Jong-un regime. 

Ms. TORRES. Right. 

Mr. THAE. Yes. 

Ms. TORRES. Why now under this regime and not the previous? 

What’s the difference? What caused you to say enough is enough? 

Mr. THAE. Because the first Kim Jong-un escalated his reign of 

terror of this kind of thing. So many diplomats and elite group lost 

confidence on the system and also now Kim Jong-un is desperately 

accelerating this nuclear process which is very, very dangerous to 

the existence of North Korea. 

Ms. TORRES. Was there something specific to you personally that 

caused you to say this is it, it’s time for me to leave? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, there is not that kind of, you know, triggering 

point. But as I have said that I have watched and followed those 

growing process of my sons in London and I thought that it is not 

the right thing for me to take them back. 

Ms. TORRES. Mr. Kim Jong-un is a young man. He’s going to 

have a birthday on January 8th. 

Mr. THAE. That’s right. But nobody knows which year. 

Ms. TORRES. Between Russia and China, who do you think is 

more involved in advising him on issues dealing with the U.S.? 

Mr. THAE. I don’t think China or Russia is advising Kim Jongun on that matter. He is advised by his close associates. 

Ms. TORRES. Yet, China is very dependent on workers from 

North Korea. 

Mr. THAE. Yes. 

Ms. TORRES. So how can it be that China is not advising him on 

how to deal with the U.S.? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, I mean that I don’t think that the Chinese has 

any kind of, you know, the diplomatic instrument which can 

change the thought of Kim Jong-un and also it is a common fact 

that China is exercising the double standard—the approach on 

North Korea on one hand. 

China is keeping its obligation with United Nations sanctions 

but on the other hand it is also opening the possibilities for North 

Korea to fund its program by importing a lot of North Korean laborers to their country. 

31

Ms. TORRES. Smuggling networks, private traders, small companies, do you have an idea of, you know, who they are and how we 

can as a U.S. policy impact that activity? 

Mr. THAE. I think that is the matter of the Chinese decision. I 

think we should continue to convince the Chinese Government that 

the North Korean nuclear threat is not only a threat to America 

but it can be the threat to China itself. 

So I think we should continue to convince the Chinese Government to cooperate to stop North Korea’s nuclearization and if the 

Chinese are convinced then I think the Chinese Government will 

take effective measures to stop and crack down all the smuggling 

networks. 

Ms. TORRES. So what I am understanding——

Chairman ROYCE. Okay. Well, the time has expired, though. 

Ms. TORRES. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman ROYCE. Okay. We have got to go to Joe Wilson of 

South Carolina. 

Mr. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And Ambassador Thae, I appreciate your courage on behalf of the 

Korean people. I represent many constituents in South Carolina 

who have served in Korea. 

They developed a great affection for Korean families. I can identify because my dad served in the Flying Tigers to World War II 

and he developed a great affection for the people of India and 

China. 

Additionally, I want you to know that the Korean-American population is so important across the United States but in my home 

state of South Carolina this weekend we had the Korean festival 

and it is to celebrate the extraordinary culture of Korea. 

And at Columbia, South Carolina, the Korean Presbyterian 

Church led by Reverend Dong-young Kim, there will be a great 

celebration of how much the people of America appreciate the culture of Korea. 

And Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your leadership promoting freedom for the Korean citizens, which is of the utmost importance for 

the people of South Korea and American families for our security. 

It is for this reason I’d like to thank the chairman for his attention to a bill that has been proposed by Congressman Adam Schiff 

of California. 

It’s a bipartisan bill that supports and clarifies and compliments 

the State Department’s recent prohibition on the tourist travel in 

North Korea, sadly reflecting on the murder of Otto Warmbier. 

Mr. Thae, would you agree that, sadly, North Korea is a supremely dangerous place? And I applaud the State Department 

with the leadership of President Donald Trump and U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley for their efforts, through the expeditious passage 

of the H.R. 2397, the North Korea Travel Control Act. 

The danger that North Korea poses to America and our allies is 

a bipartisan concern and I am just so grateful that both Chairman 

Ed Royce and Ranking Member Eliot Engel have supported its passage out of the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific. 

And Ambassador Thae, I have recently visited the beautiful 

country of South Korea. What an extraordinary country, and I 

know the critical relationship that we have that ‘‘we go together.’’

32

Additionally, I am grateful that with Chairman Royce and Congressman Eliot Engel we are possibly the only Members of Congress who have been to North Korea. 

We saw the destitution, oppression of the people in Pyongyang 

but that is in contrast to the extraordinary success of the people 

of South Korea, the Republic of Korea, and in Seoul. 

With that in mind, there have been measures passed both in 

Congress and at the U.N., led by Ambassador Nikki Haley—the 

former governor of my home state, South Carolina—that targeted 

North Korean textiles, coal, iron ore, seafood, and other sectors 

that are used to finance the illicit programs of the North Korean 

regime. 

Are there any other sectors or streams of revenue that we could 

act? I am also grateful that President Donald Trump has begun a 

process of what’s called secondary sanctions. Can you suggest to 

the President any secondary sanctions that should be enforced to 

help the people of Korea? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, I think they could target the measures taken by 

something like a secondary boycott. I strongly believe that these 

kind of secondary boycott measures should be expanded to target 

the Chinese and Russian companies who helps the illicit activity by 

North Korea. 

But meanwhile, I also want to use diplomatic soft power, something like a campaign to isolate North Korea and in diplomatic 

world. 

Ironically, so far only a few countries in the world expelled North 

Korean Ambassadors as a protest of the current continuation of nuclear program. 

For instance, now North Korea has conducted six nuclear tests. 

But except Spain, no European countries so far have ever expelled 

or downgraded the current diplomatic relations with North Korea. 

What happened between Iran and European countries in the past 

because of the case of Rashid, the Iranian novelist, at that time the 

whole European Union, together with America, joined in their efforts to isolate Iran diplomatically by withdrawing all the Ambassadors from Tehran and asking Iran to withdraw their Ambassadors from all European capitals. But so far, we haven’t seen that 

kind of concerted or unified response from Western European countries which we share common ideas and values. 

So that is why I think the American Government should beef up 

more its campaign of diplomatic isolation against North Korea, asking the American allies to follow the suit, to follow the America’s 

policy to isolate North Korea diplomatically. 

Now, North Korean workers—tens of thousands of North Korean 

workers are working in American Middle East allies like Kuwait, 

the Arab Emirates. But these Arab countries are still allowing 

North Korean workers working in their countries. 

American allies like Poland are still allowing the North Korean 

workers working in their shipyards. So a lot of measures can be 

taken with the cooperation with American allies. Why can’t the 

American Government ask Arab allies to do more? 

Chairman ROYCE. And if I could interrupt at that point. We have 

passed sanctions legislation which allows us to deploy sanctions 

33

against those entities and we should be doing that. It’s a very good 

point. 

We need to go to Mr. Brad Schneider of Illinois. 

Mr. WILSON. Ambassador, you’re an inspiration. So is our chairman. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. Mr. Brad Schneider of Illinois. 

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

providing this opportunity for Mr. Thae to join us. 

It was an honor to be with the chairman in South Korea in August and a chance to meet with you there. I thank you for that 

time. I appreciate you coming here and sharing your experiences, 

your insights. It’s very important that you’re here and your candor 

and frankness is very much appreciated. 

One of the things you mentioned is that as the elite within North 

Korea get promoted, it involves greater sacrifice and entails increasing risk. 

Given that, what would be the impact in North Korea of providing more opportunities for the elite to defect and how might the 

international community go to creating those opportunities for defection? 

Mr. THAE. Yes. I think we should have a tailor-made system for 

North Korean elites to defect. For instance, before I defected to 

South Korea, I studied about the system of South Korea what can 

I do—what kind of life in my future in South Korea. 

I searched all the contents on the Internet. But before my arrival 

to South Korea and spent a few months in South Korea, I could 

not get any informations what kind of treatment or what kind of 

status I can be given by the South Korean Government. 

But, of course, the policy of equal treatment for North Korean defectors in South Korea. But as for high elite defectors, I think we 

should make a tailor-made law so that if we make the exit of North 

Korean elites for defection I think we should upgrade more the current treatment the policies of North Korea’s elite group because the 

country, like North Korea, can be easily collapsed if the group of 

elite leave that system. 

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Great. Thank you. 

I liked how you described the thumb drives that are now nose 

drives that young people can hide. But that is just a mechanism 

to get more information into the mass population of North Korea. 

I know others have touched on it a little bit but could you expand 

a bit about some of the most important messages we need to communicate to the people of North Korea to try to unravel the brainwashing that is coming from the Kim regime and expose North Koreans to what is the reality within their country but also the reality in South Korea and the rest of the world. 

Mr. THAE. I think we can make tailor-made contents comparing 

the reality in North Korea and South Korea because North and 

South, we share the same language, same culture, and also we 

have huge separate families who also have bloodlines. 

That’s why I think if we make good tailor-made contents to educate the North Korean people, something like we may use the ordinary daily life of North Koreans. For instance, in North Korea 

there is no concept of a proper payment for the labor they sacrificed. 

34

North Korea was in place for several decades without proper payment. For instance, when I worked as the deputy general director 

of North Korea’s foreign ministry, my monthly salary was $2,900 

North Korean won. 

At that time, one kilo of rice was $3,400 won. So with 1 month’s 

salary, I cannot even afford to buy one kilo of rice. So the North 

Korean system is kind of stupid but people just take it for granted 

because they are used to this kind of stupidity for a long time and 

nobody thinks it is strange. 

So that is why we should educate the North Korean people that 

everyone in the North Korean system are entitled for proper payment. 

Mr. SCHNEIDER. In your sense and your experience, is this something that should be done in high production qualities or is it more 

important that it is coming from people—as you mentioned, there 

were the connections—familiar connections, North Koreans and 

South Koreans share those bonds—is it something that should be 

done showing every—just everyday life in South Korea? 

Mr. THAE. No, every life in North Korea, I mean. 

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Right. But showing to the North Koreans what 

it is like, everyday life in South Korea—that there is opportunity, 

that someone gets a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work—that 

there is opportunity to raise your family and give them a better future than what their parents are enduring right now? 

Mr. THAE. Yes, something like that. For instance, yesterday I 

told a very interesting story at CSIS about the cultural concepts in 

North Korea. 

In North Korea, for instance, when the girls with physical beauty 

reaches the age of 14, they are automatically and naturally registered by the regime. And when the girls reach the age of 16 and 

17 and if they—the girls keep that physical beauty then they would 

be mobilized to be sent to the capital to be employed either in special hospitals or guest houses for the entertainment of the Kim 

family. 

But in North Korea, if the young girl with physical beauty is sent 

to Pyongyang for that purpose, the villagers of that village would 

regard it as a kind of honor of the family. 

It is really a stupid culture which was practiced and prevailed, 

say, for hundreds of years ago in Yi Dynasty of Korea. But still the 

North Korean people believe that they—the Kim family can exploit 

sexually their daughters—you know, beautiful daughters. 

So it is really stupid, the system and culture. We should educate 

the North Korean people how stupid they are by sending their 

beautiful daughters to the capital. 

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Okay. Well, I am out of time. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. We need to now—yes. We need to now go to 

Brian Mast from Florida. Major? 

Mr. MAST. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, sir, for your remarks today. You have spoken a little bit about the history of nuclear development in North Korea. 

I believe you were speaking about the Joint Institute for Nuclear 

Research previously—that overlap between Russia and North 

Korea, going back quite a long way. And we are all very familiar 

with the proliferation efforts of A.Q. Khan. 

35

I want to ask a little bit more modernly to your knowledge. Has 

there been any effort by China to share either nuclear technology 

or ballistic missile technology with North Korea in modern history? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, first of all, I do not have any clear information 

in fact of this nuclear cooperation between North and China. 

But it is a common fact that all those—the ferries which carry 

all those—the trucks which carry the ICBMs are Chinese-made 

trucks. This is a very common thing. Even though China claims 

that those trucks were exported to North Korea for the timber industry but it is a proven fact that North Korea is actually using 

all those China-made trucks for ICBM deployment. 

So and another thing—it is true that in ’60s and ’70s the basic 

technology of North Korean submarines were imported from China 

and hundreds of Chinese technicians helped North Korea to build 

the first class of submarines. 

Mr. MAST. I do want to get to submarines in a moment. That is 

part of, you know, the whole idea of nuclear triad. Before I ask that 

question, though, to your knowledge has North Korea had a desire 

to or actually engaged in sharing their advancements with Iran? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, in the past, whenever North Korea test those satellites, Iranian scientists were invited to the site and it is the common fact that during the war between Iraq and Iran, North Korea 

supported the Iran side by supplying vast—the military equipments and after that ended, because of that there was strong cooperation between Iran and North Korea on all military terms. 

But in terms of nuclear cooperation, I do not have any clear fact 

information of that in that regard. 

Mr. MAST. North Korea is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It’s known that they pulled out in 2003. In your 

opinion, would they share their advancements in nuclear technology with Iran? Do you think that they would have a desire to 

do that? 

Mr. THAE. Absolutely, because North Korea is a country who 

wants to sell anything for hard currency. It has proved on a couple 

of occasions that North Korea was engaged in illicit activities like 

counterfeiting currencies, drugs. So why not their nuclear technology? 

Mr. MAST. So you did bring up submarines and there is quite 

often the emphasis and conversation is placed on ICBM technology. 

I would like to know, from your knowledge, has there been an 

effort to advance capabilities that would allow delivery of a nuclear 

weapon from a submarine system where they could get off the 

coast of Japan or South Korea or the United States or any other 

area of the coast? Has there been a desire or an effort to advance 

in their submarine delivery capabilities? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, it was reported a couple of times and North Korea 

also claimed that it made dramatic improvements in their submarine delivery especially by—in terms of code launching the technology. 

And last year, North Korea proved a couple of times that it made 

great advancements in SLMB, the test and I am sure that North 

Korea will continue on that process. 

Mr. MAST. I have one final question as it pertains to, I guess the 

best way I could put it, would be safety. You know, historically 

36

speaking, in the world of nuclear weapons between the United 

States of America and Russia there have been very known protocols. 

At one point, it was mutually assured destruction and then there 

was a ladder of escalation—that everybody knew what the various 

steps of that were—you know, selective ambiguity. 

And so what I would like to know is has North Korea, in an effort to obtain a nuclear weapon, have they also made an effort to 

secure any of the safety protocols that have existed with the United 

States of America or Russia to ensure that there is not an accidental launch of a weapon or that somebody that is not part of the 

regime in control could get in control of a nuclear football, as we 

call it here, and make a launch? Has there ever been any safety 

efforts? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, last year North Korea announced that the North 

Korean army’s strategic military unit, which means the ICBM missile unit, directly belongs to Kim Jong-un himself. They officially 

announced it. 

So this means that Kim Jong-un wants to delegate the direct instructions from his command directly to the general who is in 

charge of that whole missile unit. 

And I haven’t read or seen any of that kind of safety—the regulations how to control or manage North Korea’s nuclear arsenal. Personally, I haven’t heard any of that kind of the regulations or procedures. 

Chairman ROYCE. We need to go to Colonel Ted Lieu of California. 

Mr. LIEU. Thank you, sir, for your courage and for testifying before the United States Congress, and thank you, Chairman Royce, 

for holding this important hearing and giving us the opportunity 

to ask questions. 

You, sir, had mentioned elites in your testimony. You said you 

were one of the elites. How many people are we talking about in 

that category, would you say? 

Mr. THAE. You mean in the total elites or only just diplomats? 

Mr. LIEU. The total elites in North Korea, just a ballpark figure. 

Mr. THAE. Oh, it is really difficult to give exact percentage of the 

elite group. But according to the recent survey, the North Korean 

society is a class society. 

While there are three classes, the main ruling class is called core 

class and next is wavering class and the last one is hostile class, 

and according to the academic search by calculating the population 

of Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, the experts are arguing 

maybe 25 percent of North Korean population belong to the core 

class and usually elite are chosen only from core class. To my impression, when we say about elite I think maybe less than 10,000, 

to my knowledge. 

Mr. LIEU. And you, as an elite, clearly saw the truth, which is 

why you defected. Is your sense that most of the elites also see the 

truth? Or do you think most of them are brainwashed and don’t 

really know what’s going on? 

Mr. THAE. North Korea is a very strange and unique system. For 

instance, if you are in high rank, that does not mean that you have 

more access to information. 

37

For instance, inside North Korea the most powerful institution 

which controls every sector of life is guidance and organization of 

Department of Central Committee of Workers’ Party of Korea. 

There are around 300 or 400 people actually who control the 

whole North Korea. But do these people have access to outside information like me? 

No, because there are only 10,000 diplomats—there are only 

1,000 diplomats working in Foreign Ministry who have that kind 

of access to world news, for instance, all those—the newspapers or 

all these foreign magazines. 

But the people who are working much higher in the ranks do not 

have any ability to access this kind of outside information. So even 

though you are in high rank that does not mean that you have the 

access of information. 

Mr. LIEU. And if we could deliver information to the elites, do 

you think that would be enough? Or do you think we’d actually 

have to do what you said, just give a lot of information to the people? 

Mr. THAE. I think—oh, that we should make a different contents 

which can be targeted for the different—you know, the people and 

class of North Korea. 

For instance, there is not a sense of solidarity between the core 

class and the wavering or hostile. There is a kind of, you know, 

hidden hatreds between core class and hostile class because during 

the Korean War and before the Korean War actually their ancestors fought each other. 

So that is why now the ruling class, or elite, in North Korean society are afraid of any kind of political revenge if there is any 

change of the system or if there is any sudden contingency in 

North Korean society. 

So we should continue to deliver a kind of message that if they 

cooperate with the rest of the population to change the North Korean regime, then their future would be guaranteed. 

For instance, America, together with South Korea, can control 

and prevent any political revenge, any physical revenge from those 

victims of Kim Jong-un. 

So we should try to make a kind of accommodation of feelings 

and those, you know, the hatreds between elite class and wavering 

and hostile class. So that is the best way to make a change. 

Mr. LIEU. Thank you. I appreciate it. 

I yield back. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Lieu. 

We go now to Mr. Ted Yoho of Florida. 

Mr. YOHO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ambassador Thae, good seeing you again. As you can see this is 

on TV. It’s being broadcast here. If it is being broadcast here with 

the astuteness of the North Koreans being able to hack in, we can 

probably assume that if Kim Jong-un and his people wanted to 

watch they are watching us right now. So I am going to direct this 

probably more to them. 

And, you know, it was brought up that he’s getting his ICBMs 

and his military weapons to protect his regime and preserve himself. 

38

And I would think that if any other country wanted to topple 

him they would have done it by now. So I don’t think that is really 

an issue. 

I think what we really need to focus on is bringing him to the 

table and have a diplomatic end to this nonsense—you know, building nuclear wars in the 21st century. 

And I wanted to ask you, without having North Korea on the 

state sponsor of terrorism list, do you think that makes the sanctions less effective versus putting North Korea back on the state 

sponsor of terrorism list? What’s your thoughts? 

Mr. THAE. I think we should avail every bit possible of nonmilitary options to stop North Korea’s continuation of this process. 

Mr. YOHO. And, in your opinion, if we put North Korea—being 

a diplomat from North Korea, if we were to put North Korea back 

on the state sponsor of terrorism list, do you think that would have 

more effect by other countries that you visited? 

Mr. THAE. Absolutely. 

Mr. YOHO. Okay. Let me ask you this. What kind of relationship 

does North Korea have on a diplomatic level with other countries? 

What did they focus on? 

When you’re in a country—when you were a North Korean diplomat and you were in the countries that you were in, was it a feeling of respect you got from another country or was it a feeling of 

tolerance—that they put up with North Korea? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, for instance, as a diplomat working in United 

Kingdom, I was always instructed to use the British Government’s 

North Korean policy of critical engagement and I always tried my 

best to convince the British Government to let them use their role 

to prevent any possible war scenario on the Korean Peninsula. 

For instance, if there is a key reserve for exercise of the British 

military representative or a small personnel were always invited to 

take part in that war exercise and it is my job to visit the British 

Foreign Office and the defense ministry to convince them not to go 

to joint military exercises. 

Mr. YOHO. Okay. So you focused more on military, whereas my 

experience has been with most Embassies from country to country 

they focus on trade, economies, building economies, and cultural 

exchanges. You’re saying you just focused on military and don’t attack us? 

Mr. THAE. Of course. You know, for instance, there is almost not 

any trade relations between North Korea and Britain. That’s why 

there is no point for me to build that kind of things. 

But as for cultural exchanges, the British side tried to invite as 

many as North Korean civil servants to take part in English shortterm training course and I thought that it will be helpful for North 

Korean elites to look around democracy and freedom in U.K. 

Mr. YOHO. All right. But you didn’t see many Embassies sending 

people to North Korea, did you? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, some countries——

Mr. YOHO. Other Embassies. 

Mr. THAE [continuing]. Some countries and some countries not. 

Mr. YOHO. All right. I just want to do a brief review of history 

and, again, this is directed at the people of North Korea that may 

be listening to this. 

39

You know, we had a war with Germany and Japan. We had a 

war with South Korea and Vietnam. A lot of people died. A lot of 

buildings got destroyed. 

But there is a common denominator and that common denominator is war. But the other common denominator is trade. You 

know, so we fought these wars and at the end we are all big trading partners. 

South Korea has a market economy. They are our sixth largest 

trading partner. Vietnam is a communist country that engaged in 

market economies. They are our sixteenth largest trading partner. 

Germany and Japan are huge trading partners. And so what I 

would encourage the Kim Jong-un regime is don’t go to war. If we 

are going to trade, let’s just start trading now and do whatever we 

can to come to the negotiating table. 

And that is what I would encourage them to do, and the illicit 

activities they do in their Embassies from wildlife trafficking and 

endangered species, you know, bring that to an end and let’s just 

work on the trade. 

Thank you for your time and I will see you at lunch. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you. 

We go now to Joaquin Castro of Texas. 

Mr. CASTRO. Thank you, Ambassador, for your testimony today 

and for your courage to defect. 

Before I ask you a question, I just want to make a quick statement for the historical record. Some have suggested that perhaps 

we should have taken or suggested—intimated that perhaps we 

should have taken military action before to stop North Korea’s nuclear program. 

But the problem with that is that post-911, once we were knee 

deep in two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the idea that the United 

States in 2006 or 2008 or 2009 was going to jump into another war 

in Asia I think seems very strange and unrealistic. 

There has also been conflicting reports about North Korea’s nuclear capabilities. So let me ask you very directly, what is your understanding of their ability to deliver a nuclear weapon to, say, 

Japan or South Korea, or beyond that? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, North Korea has started its nuclear development 

from late of 1950s. So that means that North Korea spent several 

decades on completing this nuclear program. 

So I think it is—we should admit that North Korea has reached 

this certain level of nuclear development and actually they are at 

the doorstep before final completion. 

Mr. CASTRO. Do you think they can deliver a nuclear weapon to 

South Korea? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, I am not quite sure whether they will definitely 

deliver or not. But if we see the current North Korean brainwashing education system, they are educating the North Korean 

military officers that they should blindly follow what Kim Jong-un 

instructs them. 

Mr. CASTRO. Well, I guess let me ask you this, Ambassador. Are 

you certain that they can’t deliver a nuclear weapon to South 

Korea? 

Mr. THAE. I think if Kim Jong-un believes that his life is threatened, I think he can do anything as long as he has something. 

40

Mr. CASTRO. Okay. What’s your understanding of North Korea’s 

abilities within cyberspace? 

Their ability to attack on a cyber level the way the Russians 

have interfered with our elections, for example, and the way that 

North Korea purportedly interfered with Sony’s systems and did a 

big data dump? What’s your assessment of their cyber capabilities? 

Mr. THAE. I do not have the exact information about the cyber 

attacking—you know, the network of North Korea. But what I have 

seen during my life in North Korea has a very good educational 

system to educate those cyber professionals. 

Mr. CASTRO. So people are being trained in cyber very actively? 

Mr. THAE. That’s right, from middle school age. So North Korea 

has a very good educational system to do that. 

Mr. CASTRO. Okay. In addition to China, which other world 

economies—which other nations are propping up the North Korean 

economy? 

I know China makes up the lion’s share of it. But in your experience, based on what you saw, what other countries are out there 

that are helping prop up this economy? 

Mr. THAE. I think the first, China, and the—naturally, Russia is 

the second and Southeast Asian countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, 

and Thailand these, the geographically nearest countries are the 

number third trading partners of North Korea. 

Mr. CASTRO. And with what kind of activities? What kind of 

goods or what kind of things are being traded? What kind of activity makes up? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, North Korea are exporting most of its raw materials like coal, the iron ore, seafood—of these things to China and 

in return North Korea buying the highly—technologies and modern 

goods from China. 

So I think North Korea’s foreign trade is mostly dependent on 

China. 

Mr. CASTRO. And then one last question for you. It’s been many 

decades now since North and South Korea have basically been two 

separate distinct nations. 

Supposing that the North Korean Government and society did 

crumble. Do you believe that North Korea and South Korea, being 

apart now for so long, could realistically reunify? 

Mr. THAE. Yes, I think so because, you know, we share same language and same blood and same culture. North and South are—has 

been divided only for 70 years. 

But what I learned after my arrival to South Korea I learned we 

have so many things in common. There is no problem for me to understand Chinese culture or system or language. 

So I think it will be a very easy process to accommodate the 

North and South Korea if the two Koreas are reunified. 

Mr. CASTRO. Thank you. And then just to bookend my comment 

from the beginning, I think that this debate over whether we 

take—we should have taken military action in North Korea earlier, 

perhaps a decade ago, really underlines the mistake of the Iraq 

War. 

We went into the Iraq War believing that Saddam Hussein was 

developing nuclear capabilities that North Korea was actually developing. But we took no action there. 

41

Without making a judgment about whether we should or should 

not have taken military action, I think the mistake of Iraq is made 

worse by that realization. 

Thank you for your testimony today, Ambassador. 

Mr. THAE. Thank you for your question. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you. We go now to Adriano Espaillat 

from New York. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ambassador, for your insightful testimony. 

For many years, we heard of the hunger and famine impacting 

the North Korean people. What’s the status of the hunger and is 

there any famine? 

Often, when peoples are facing those kinds of very adverse conditions there is an instinct to dissent and to rebel. Is there—what’s 

the status of the food situation in North Korea right now? 

Mr. THAE. Before the 1990s, North Korea maintained a very effective ration system. At that time, everyone in North Korea enjoyed certain rations of the food every month. 

But these days, this ration system is only available for the civil 

servants or, like, working in the ministries or army—armies or security forces. 

And if we see the effect of this malnutrition and famine in North 

Korea for the past 20 and 30 years, now if we compare the general 

height of North Korean young children and South Korean young 

generation, there is even 10 centimeters gap between South Korean 

young generation and North Korean young generation. 

So because of this long decade of malnutrition, even the physical 

toll of North Koreans are changing. So I think this clearly proves 

that this kind of, you know, malnutrition—famine are still severely 

going on in North Korea. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. You mentioned in your testimony about North 

Korea’s forced labor and China benefits. Which are the other countries that benefit from forced labor and are there any particular 

areas or products that they are producing that we can identify and 

potentially boycott? 

Mr. THAE. For instance, the North Korean workers are the main 

source of labor in Russia for their timber industry. In Russian society now there is no Russian wanting to work in that cold weather 

conditions in Siberia. It is North Korean workers who help Russia’s 

timber industry and for the construction industry the main source 

of labor are from North Korea. 

And if you see the Middle East countries like Kuwait or Arab 

Emirates, of these countries there are more than 50,000 North Korean workers are working in those countries, especially in construction building. 

And if you see the countries in Africa like the Angola or Uganda 

now there are many North Korean medical teams working in very 

bad severe conditions of rural hospitals to earn the hard currency 

in those countries. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. Okay. What are the—beyond the Chinese and the 

Russian sphere of influence, are there any relationships between 

the North Korean Government and countries in the Western Hemisphere? 

42

Mr. THAE. Yes, of course. North Korea has diplomatic relations 

and they are with almost all European countries except France and 

Estonia, and North Korea has 11 Embassies in Europe. That’s why 

this proves that North Korea still has a vast network of diplomatic 

service in European countries. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. What about in Latin America and the Caribbean? 

Mr. THAE. In Latin America, to my knowledge, now there are 

Embassies in five countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, Peru, 

and so on—that to my knowledge, yes. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. Okay. Finally, you mentioned that there are 

thousands of defectors in China and in South Korea and the need 

to protect them is paramount, and if they are sent back to North 

Korea they will be torture—submitted to forced labor. 

What kind of pressure do you think should be exerted against 

China to prevent this from happening but also to protect defectors 

there in the mainland of China? 

Mr. THAE. Before I traveled to America, I happened to visit one 

school in Seoul where they kept the children born by this sex exploitation in China. 

The children in school in Seoul where I visited the children even 

cannot speak Korean languages. They only speak Chinese. They 

are the children born between the ladies who worked as sex slaves 

in China and with Chinese husbands. 

So when these—the poor North Korean ladies arrive in South 

Korea and they brought back all those—the children they had with 

their Chinese husbands. But the status of the children are very 

poor because they—these children were not registered while they 

were in China——

Mr. ESPAILLAT. What kind of pressures do you think——

Chairman ROYCE. I am going to have to interrupt at this point. 

Mr. ESPAILLAT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ROYCE. We have very few minutes—very little time 

left. I am going to as if Mr. Garrett and if Mr. David Cicilline 

would join me at lunch immediately after—a lunch which we are 

supposed to be doing right now with our witness. 

We are far past out of time and we have been asked several 

times to wrap this up. But we have had one person waiting in the 

queue for a while who has a problem with his knee and that is Mr. 

Gerry Connolly from Virginia. 

Gerry, would you like to ask your questions? And then the rest 

of us are going to go to lunch with this guest. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I’ll try to be succinct. 

Mr. Thae, you indicated that essentially Kim Jong-un and his regime are going to pursue nuclear-tipped ICBMs at all cost because 

they see it as the key to the preservation of the regime. 

Is there anything the Western alliance—the United States working with Japan and Korea and maybe—South Korea and even 

China or whoever—do we possess something he wants so much 

that he would stop the nuclear development and possibly even roll 

it back the way we did with Iran? 

Mr. THAE. I don’t think so. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So we are way past the point of no return? 

43

Mr. THAE. That we should continue the current—the momentum 

of sanctions and campaign of diplomatic isolation. I think that is 

the only way to force North Korea to give up its nuclear ambition. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Sanctions don’t have the appreciable effect because of the black market economy both through China and Russia 

that you were describing as well as some other business relationships North Korea has been able to establish. Is that your view? 

Mr. THAE. Oh, but, you know, only sanctions is not effective to 

stop this process. But if we build up our pressure on China to stop 

the smugglings and also if we continue and expand our activity of 

disseminating information to educate the North Korean people, in 

the long run I am absolutely sure that North Korean people one 

day will stand up to change the course. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Do you—a final question—do you believe Kim 

Jong-un and his regime understand that the use of nuclear weapons would almost certainly bring enormous retaliation in kind, destroying the regime he seeks, purportedly, to perpetuate? 

Mr. THAE. I think Kim Jong-un is aware of that but meanwhile, 

he also believes that if he has these nuclear weapons he can successfully compel Washington to pull its troops out from Korean Peninsula. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you. I am going to yield back my time. I 

thank the chairman for his graciousness. 

Thank you, Mr. Thae, for your courage and thank you for being 

here today. 

Mr. THAE. Thank you. 

Chairman ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Connolly. 

And Mr. Thae, I want to thank you for sharing your story and 

your insights with the committee here and also thank the National 

Endowment for Democracy, which has supported your trip. 

As Ranking Member Eliot Engel said, we have had many hearings with experts on North Korea. No one has brought the insights 

that you have brought today and your testimony will be of great 

and lasting value, I believe, to the committee. 

One area I wanted to underscore is the abysmal human rights 

situation of the North Korean people. We know how badly North 

Koreans are abused. Hundreds of thousands are in gulags. 

The Kim regime’s aggression against us reflects their aggression 

against North Koreans and I think one message we have heard 

again and again is the importance of communicating with the 

North Korean people, letting them know of the true nature of the 

brutal and very corrupt regime there. 

And I think the Korean people deserve so much better than the 

government that they have and to that end we need to do a much 

better job with our international broadcasting efforts and other efforts. 

I think our national security depends on it and, Mr. Thae, we appreciate your courage. Again, in appearing before us you have presented outstanding testimony that will help all Korean people and 

the cause of peace. You should be proud. 

And the hearing stands adjourned. 

Mr. THAE. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 12:47 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

(45)

A P P E N D I X 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

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FULL COMMITTEE HEARING NOTICE 

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

WASHINGTON. DC 20515-6128 

Edward R. Royce (R-CA), Chairman 

November L 2017 

TO: MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

You are respectfi.Jily requested to attend an OPEN hearing of the Committee on Foreign Affairs to 

be held in Room 2172 of the Rayburn House O±lice Building (and available live on the Committee 

website at hitp:/fw" w.Forcimu\Hairs.houscsov): 

DATE: 

TIME: 

SUBJECT: 

WITNESS: 

Wednesday, November I, 2017 

10:30 a.m. 

An Insider's Look at the North Korean Regime 

Mr. Thae Yong-ho 

(Former Deputy ChiefofMission. Embassy ofthe Democratic People ·s Republic 

a/Korea in the United Kingdom) 

By Direction of the Chairman 
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

MINUTES OF FULL COMMITTEE HEARTNG 

Day Wednesday Date __ _clo_:lo:_li::c'Ol"-I."-'20"-'1'-'7---Room __ ___:2::.:/c.:7-=2 __ _ 

Starting Time I 0:31AM Ending Time !2:47PM 

I

. I Recesses ~ L_to __ ) (__to __ ) L_to __ )(__to __ ) (__to_____) L_to __ ) 

Presiding Mcmber(s) 

Chairman Edward R. Royce 

Check all of the following that apply: 

Open Session 0 Executive @sed) Session D Televised 0 

TITLE OF HEARING: 

An Insider's Look at the North Korean Regime 

COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: 

See attached. 

NON-COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: 

N/A 

Electronically Record~ taped) 0 

Stenographic Record LLJ 

HEARING WITNESSES: Same as meeting notice attached'/ Yes Q No 0 

(If "no", please list he/ow and include title, agency, department, or organization.) 

STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD: (List any statements submitted for the record) 

SFR- Representative Connolly 

QFR -Representative Titus 

TIME SCHEDULED TO RECONVENE ___ _ 

or 

TIMEADJOURNED /2:47PM 
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PRESENT 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

X 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

FULL COMMITTEE HEARING 

MEMBER l'RESDcT MEMBER 

Edward R. Rovce, CA X Eliot L. Engel, NY 

Christopher H. Smith, NJ X Brad Sherman. CA 

Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, FL Gregory W. Meeks. NY 

Dana Rohrabacher, CA X Albia Sires. NJ 

Steve Chabot OH X Gerald E. Connolly. VA 

Joe Wilson, SC X Theodore E. Deutch. FL 

1\![jchael T. McCaul, TX X Karen Bass, CA 

Ted Poe. TX X William Keating. MA 

Darrell Issa. CA X David Cicilline, RJ 

Tom Marino. PA Ami Bera. CA 

Mo Brooks. AL X Lois FrankeL FL 

Paul Cook, CA X Tulsi Gabbard, HI 

Scott Perrv, PA X Joaquin Castro, TX 

Ron DeSantis. FL X Robin Kelly, IL 

Mark Meadows, NC X Brendan Boyle. PA 

TedYoho.FL X Dina Titus, NV 

Adam Kinzinger,TL X Norma Torres. CA 

Lee Zeldin, NY X Brad Schneider. TL 

Dan Donovan, NY X Tom Suozzi. NY 

James F. Sensenbrenner. Jr .. WI X Adriano Espaillat. NY 

Ann Wagner. MO X Ted Lieu. CA 

Brian J. Mast. FL 

Brian K. FitLpatrick, PA 

Francis Rooney, FL 

Thomas A. Garrett. Jr., VA 
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Statement for the Record 

Submitted by Mr. Connofly of Virginiu 

The North Korean regime's drive to become a nuclear power presents a real and dangerous threat to 

U.S. national security and that of our allies. Our priority must be to de-escalate tensions on the Korean 

Peninsula by providing steady leadership, reassurance for our allies, and a comprehensive strategy for 

denuclearizing the Peninsula. For North Korea, there must be some reward for compliance and 

cooperation with international nonproliferation efforts. Otherwise, we are stuck with a policy of talking 

loudly and carrying a big stick. The Trump Administration's "strategic chaos" is destabilizing an 

already volatile situation with bellicose rhetoric, uninformed and conflicting messages, and attacks on 

our allies. 

With tensions tlaring on the Korean Peninsula, President Trump warned that he would meet North 

Korean threats with "fire and fury like the world has never seen." But frankly, his response looks more 

like fecklessness and failure. The President appears to be singularly focused on military solutions to 

this intractable global tlashpoint on the Korean Peninsula. His administration has proposed dramatic 

increases to the defense budget otTset by an evisceration of our diplomatic capabilities, and he has 

failed to make key diplomatic appointments, including an Ambassador to Seoul and an Assistant 

Secretary for East Asian and Pacific Affairs. The President's inflammatory rhetoric and failure to 

resource U.S. diplomatic efforts are more likely to blunder us into war than set the stage for peace. 

Now, it is more important than ever to stand strong with our allies, especially South Korea and Japan, 

and project a unified front. Amidst this extreme volatility on the Korean Peninsula, Trump has 

undermined the U.S. commitment to the U.S.-Korea Free Trade Agreement (KORUS), and criticized 

South Korea for its "talk of appeasement with North Korea." In September, I joined my fellow cochairs of the Congressional Caucus on Korea to write to the president and rebutThim for opening 

fissures in the U.S.-ROK alliance- an alliance forged in blood- which has served U.S. security 

interests in the region and acted as a guarantor for the safety of 50 million South Koreans. 

Following the most recent nuclear test, Trump suggested ending all trade with countries doing business 

with North Korea. Around 80 countries traded with Pyongyang in 2016, including China, Russia, 

India, Pakistan, Singapore, Gennany, Portugal, France, Thailand and the Philippines. If the U.S. ended 

trade with China alone, we would forego 4.4 percent of U.S. GDP, compared to just 0.92 percent lost 

due to the Great Recession in 2008. Cutting off trade with 80 nations is an empty threat 

Tn August 2017, the President enacted the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act 

(P.L. 115-44), which is the strongest sanctions regime ever passed by Congress. This hard-fought 

measure updates and expands the North Korea Sanctions Policy Enhancement Act of2016 (P.L. 114-

122) that was enacted last year. lt authorizes new sanctions to restrict the use of North Korean exported 

labor, correspondent banking, and trade in oil, textiles, and food and agriculture products. The bill 

included my amendment, which will ensure that U S sanctions against North Korea do not impede the 

provision of vital U.S. assistance to developing countries for maternal and child health, and disease 

prevention and response. 

1 
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U.S. sanctions are a necessary but insufficient tool to address the threat of North Korea's weapons 

program. The United States must undertake a rigorous diplomatic etfort to urge the global community, 

and China in particular, to fully enforce international sanctions on North Korea. On September 11, the 

U.N. Security Council unanimously passed UNSCR 2375 against North Korea in response to its latest 

nuclear test. The resolution reduces Pyongyang's oil/petroleum imports by thirty percent, bans all 

textile exports, and prohibits new work permits for North Korean workers. 

The Korean Peninsula remains one ofthe most dangerous flashpoints on the globe, and efficacy, above 

all else, must drive our efforts to defuse the North Korean nuclear threat. llook forward to hearing 

from our witness regarding how the United States may be able to incentivize the North Korean regime 

to denuclearize. 

2 
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Question for the Record Submitted to 

Mr. Thae Y ong-ho 

By Representative Dina Titus 

On November 1, 2017 

Question: Mr. Thae, thank you for your courage in coming to testify today. Reuters reported last 

night that the U.S. is quietly pursuing direct diplomacy with North Korea via the '"New York 

channel," but on the public level we have not seen an improvement in relations. Based on your 

understanding of the Kim regime, which should we believe is the more accurate indicator of 

where the relationship is going-the public nuclear and missile test saber rattling or the private 

diplomatic dialogue? 

Response: The Kim Jong un regime wants to complete its goal of acquiring an ICBM tipped 

with a nuclear warhead which can reach the US continent. Kim Jong un believes that he can 

scare American forces out of the Korean peninsula once he has that ability.