Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) 

system used in the Communications Subcommittee Meeting #6 and is generally unedited. The 

CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who 

are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet during the 

meeting. 

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

Thursday, July 3, 2014

RVAAC Teleconference

Communications Subcommittee Meeting #6

>> The time is now 1:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm showing that you have four 

participants standing by. Did you want to give it another minute? 

>> Just a few. 

>> Is one of them Terry? 

>> Operator, do you have Terry on the line by any chance, Terry Pacheco? 

>> Excuse me. This is the operator. I'm now going to move your line 

into the main conference so you can begin. You'll hear music 

momentarily. I'll give a brief introduction and then turn the call over 

to you. 

>> Thank you. 

>> Welcome and thank you for standing by. All audio participant phone 

lines will now be open. Please activate your phone's mute feature to 

mute and unmute your lines when you are not speaking. You may also press 
star 6 on your touch tone phone to mute and unmute your lines as needed. 

You host for today's conference is Ms. Rose Marie Bunales and you may 

now begin. 

>> Good afternoon, everybody. What I want to do is read off everyone's 

name and when you hear your name, please respond with the organization 

that you are representing. 

And I will give the operator a moment to unmute all lines and I do see 

that they're all open. Okay. Andre Gagne. 

>> Yes, I'm on the line but I can barely hear you. 

>> Well, I can hear you. Hello, Terry, but I cannot hear rose Marie that 

was speaking before you. 

>> Sorry about that. Is this better? 

>> No, I can't hear it either. It's Janice Schacter. 

>> No, it sounds like you're across the room, Rose Marie. 

>> It's not across the street. 

>> That's a possibility too. It sounds like definitely a speakerphone 

way across the difference. 

>> Sorry about that. Andre Gagne? 

>> Yes. 

>> Calvin Gibson. 

>> Rose Marie, I can't hear at all. 

I just hear the faint of the faint of... 

>> Calvin Gibson. 

>> Great. Thank you. 

Calvin Gibson. 

>> Hi. I'm here. Sorry. Muted. 
>> Billy Altom. 

>> Here. 

>> Good. 

>> Janet Schacter. 

>> Janice Schacter Lintz, here. 

>> Terry Pacheco? 

>> Yes, I'm here. 

>> Blair Slaughter? 

>> Here. 

>> Lise Hamlin? 

>> I'm here. 

>> Crystal Lyons? 

>> I'm here. 

>> Oh...I'm sorry. I just lost my screen. And Lisa Fairhall? 

>> I think I'm in listen-only. 

>> And in the room I have gym, Melissa, Paul and myself and today's court 

reporter is Sherry Knox. 
Jim? 

>> Okay. So this is Jim Pecht and I hope you got the agenda in front 

of you with the table in front of you and that ace basically where we 

are after the last meeting and it's clear that the big, bold Xs are sort 

of the tentative decisions that the committee has made about what 

requirements these -- the different categories should comply with with 

the various specific footnotes about --

>> Jim, this is Lise Hamlin. I did not get an e-mail at least that I 

know about. I've been away for a week or so, so is it possible if somebody 

can re-send that with the agenda and the table? 

>> It was posted on the web. 

>> It was supposed to go when? 

I'm sorry. 

>> It was posted on the web. 

>> Okay. I will look at that. 

>> Jim, what does VMS stand for and I don't see anything about hearing 

on the chart. 

>> VMS stands for variable message signs. 

>> Okay. 
Now, it doesn't look like any of these apply toward hearing, but I would 

like a column on hearing so that hearing is not inadvertently omit and 

that this way we make a conscious decision not to make those hearing. 

You know, audible I guess is the proper word. 

>> I assume anything that's VMS is going to be audible as well except 

for really dynamic stuff and that's up tort committee. 

>> Then can we call it VMS/hearing so people in the community understands 

what that means. I just don't want an oversight of audible not being 

added just because we don't understand it. Just so we make a conscious 

decision no, we don't want audible. 

>> Does anybody in the committee have a problem with that? 

>> Isn't that what the footnote 1 pertains to? 

>> That was the comment that two people had on that issue. 

>> I think if we just call it VMS/audible it will just be clear and this 

way if we don't -- you know, then every time we look at a sign, like 

directional signs clearly does not have to be audible but it means we're 

making a conscious decision versus an oversight. 

>> I heard nobody saying no, so --

>> Jim, this is Terry. 

The only -- I don't have an issue with it as much as long as we have 

clarification that when we're calling it audible, VMS/audible, I don't 

see where VMS/audible is saying that it has anything to do with hearing. 

I shouldn't say doesn't have anything to do with hearing. I think what 

Janice is talking about is more like -- you're talking more to do with 
loop induction, right, Janice? 

>> Exactly. But I don't care what you call the column but I just want 

some sort of column that we acknowledge and think about should it have 

a loop? 

No. Great. Then we either put VMS or do put VMS but this way so it's 

included. Yes, Terry, thank you. 

>> I'm thinking audible on the VMS would also mean is the message beyond 

being visual is it audible as well and that would not necessarily involve 

loop induction, so maybe we should just put a separate category. 

>> Well, this is Jim. We're just talking about signage at this point 

in time and the things that are audible, announcements also fall under 

the category of communication that we're going to deal with and I assume 

that the hard and fast rule at least that I was going to go with is if

you provide something in an audible format, if you can, provide it in 

a visual format, and vice versa. If it's something that's done sort of 

in a dynamic sort of -- well, not dynamic, but put up as an announcement. 

Not a static sitting on the wall sign, a print sign. 

>> Yeah, but the issue is at this point in time, we have got VMS all over 

the place and we have virtually no audible with it. So that just kind 

of shows that VMS doesn't automatically mean audible. That's kind of 

where one of our major problems is today. 

>> Well, let me try to clarify -- this is Frank again. Let me try to 

clarify what I think Jim is saying. VMS is a variable message sign and 

the idea between what that means is listed in note 1 below, A-1 and it 

says specifically that if you're announcing something audibly, you also 

have to have a visual complement to that. That's what the variable 
message sign is. 

>> Well, I'm saying is if you're putting something visually then it needs 

to have something audible to go with it. 

>> Yes. 

>> This is Janice. Terry is correct. 

>> And that's what's not happening now. 

>> Right. Terry is correct. There should be -- for VMS, there should 

be a separate column and thank you for clarifying that. There should 

be a separate column for induction loop because if it is available 

messaging, it doesn't mean -- it just means that it varies but it doesn't 

mean we need a loop and we need a column port induction loop. 

>> Janice, the loop system is something we're going to discuss and it's 

a communication issue but it's not a sign and it's not something that 

we're talking about at this point in time. I'm not going to put a column 

on here for an induction loop which is a communication issue but it's 

not a sign. 

>> Well, actually it is because for people with hearing loss and it is 

a sign and we're changing the definition of what a sign means and we're 

not saying this is the law. This is a reminder list and a little 

checklist, so there is no harm in having a little checklist for people 

-- for adding that so we don't have oversight issues -- or we don't forget 

it. It's not a big deal to add a column to this. There's no hard and 

fast rules about what we add and don't add. So I don't see the harm in 

doing it so we don't forget to do something. It's just a little 

checklist. 

>> I agree with Jim. We have already talked about hearing loops being 

a separate issue and needed to be addressed. It's really not the 
appropriate place to put it on the table. A hearing loop is used whenever 

you have an audible announcement. That's what it's used for and that's 

a separate issue than the decals and signs that we're talking about. 

>> Then, let's put the entire thing -- then let's call this --

>> One at a time, please. I think we're going to need to do this a little 

bit more slowly, a little more -- Frank was speaking. Let's let him 

finish and then you will have the floor after that, Janice. 

>> Great. Thank you. 

>> I just wanted to clarify, I know we had talked about this a couple 

of times and I agree with Jim. This doesn't belong on the table. That 

doesn't mean we're not going to discuss it. We had already said that 

hearing loops would be treated as part of the communications examination 

and as part of the communications group we were going to treat that. All 

we're saying is it doesn't belong under signs and you're misrepresented 

and it gets a little bit confusing when you start adding that to this 

table. The hearing loop is used whenever there is an audible message 

and that's where you have to control it and that's the rule if it's going 

to be one that says when an audible message is played, there needs to 

be a hearing loop. You don't have to assign all these other categories 

to it. Whenever an audible message is played or PA announcement is made, 

that's when the hearing loop comes in. It doesn't fall into these 

categories. 

So it's just -- I'm just saying it's a separate issue. I agree with what 

Jim is saying, that this table is going to define other things and that's 

just a separate issue and I think it will be handled -- it will be handled 

and it will be handled in a way that's representative of how it's used. 

>> Okay. This is Janice. I disagree. It's a column. We're not making 
it law. It is nothing and then the column stays blank if it's not 

appropriate. But adding it doesn't and I think you're coming from an 

industry point of view and while you see this has clear, people with 

hearing loss don't and lay people don't and I have worked with far too 

many companies, corporations, government agencies and museums where it 

is left off so I believe in doing the checks and balance, so let's add 

the column. And if it's not applicable, we leave it blank and no harm 

done. But if it is applicable, then we put a little check mark and I 

don't really understand why you would have a problem with that because 

if it's not applicable, it's blank but then we have made a conscious 

decision about it. 

>> Okay. Thank you. 

Could I make a suggestion for a possible compromise here? 

Could we add pretty much exactly what Frank just said that if it's an 

audible sign -- if it's an audible message, then there should be a loop, 

a loop induction system. Could we just add that as another -- at the 

bottom of this as another row instead of another column? 

And then that statement is in there once and for all, that if we're going 

to have an audible message, we have got it in there as one of the additional 

options going down the list. Why don't we just put it in as another row 

right there. 

>> This is Janice. I don't think it works as well because if any of those 

categories is or audible, then it's not saying which category is. So 

why not instead of making it a row, make it a column and we leave it blank. 

It's not a big deal and if this is important to people with hearing loss, 

I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with adding a column if it's 

completely blank. The rail-type column is completely blank right now 
and I'm not sure why there is a problem. There is plenty of room on the 

chart, we add another column and then we can move on --

>> Okay. Why don't you put that on yours anyhow and then we can all catch 

up on that at some point for those who may not have it right in front 

of them to add in a column or whatever at least if you have got it there 

then we can all take a look at it at some time in the future --

>> Terry, Terry, that doesn't work. 

>> I believe that there was someone else asking for the floor. 

>> But, Terry, I just want to be clear. That doesn't work because I'm 

not keeping separate charts and if we're only working on visual, then 

I'm not even sure why I'm even on the call because then we should call 

this a visual communication category and not a communication and we need 

to include all disabilities and not exclude one disability. 

>> Janice, as this thing stands right now, the hearing loss community 

has more on -- if you interpret this table, there's more on here for 

hearing loss than there is for any other disability. 

>> Where? 

I don't see it. I don't see hearing. 

>> If you would -- hold on a second. If you look at the first column 

for visual and tactical, the only two things that are even in there are 

for nonemergency issues. 

>> I see tactical and visual in the first column, I see 3. I see 5 in 

the other column --

>> Do you know what that means? 

This is what I'm saying, I think there is a little bit of confusion with 

all of this. If you look at the first column there, there are -- unless 

it changed overnight, there are two Xs --
>> 3. 

>> Let me finish please. If you look at what those two issues are, they're 

both nonemergency. We're not even looking at doing tactical and visual 

for emergency issues right now. That is -- so the whole concept that 

one disability is being left out over another is absolutely not the case 

here and we all know that we're trying to fit in as many disabilities 

as possible. And one of the things that we're not looking at at all is 

a combination is the deaf-blind community. Neither my induction loops 

or your large signs handle that at all. 

>> Then let's include a column for them. I'm not excluding people. I'm 

including >> We have wasted -- we have --

>> No, we haven't wasted anything because, Terry, if we add the column 

--

>> Janice, let her speak. 

>> Janice, we have worked this through for months and we have talked it 

over and talked it over and talked it over. Let's take what we have now 

and go with it and we can include the induction loop. It's in there under 

1A. It's no there and at some time in the future when we have finally 

got a final copy put together for everyone, we can obviously at that time 

write anything we want on it. Let's get this thing done. We are running 

four months behind schedule at this point and an awful lot of it has to 

do with the arguments we have on this call instead of getting --

>> You're screaming and please don't scream in my ear. 

>> I'm not screaming. 

>> No. I'm not getting into this argument with you again, Janice. 

>> I don't care if you're getting into an argument. I'll e-mail the head 

of the committee because this is ridiculous to have hearing committee 
left out. 

>> Operator, mute Janice Schacter. 

Thank you. 

This is Rose Marie. Ms. Terry, please continue. 

>> What I'm saying is we have got to get this finished. We can add in 

a separate column. If Janice wants to add in one on her table, that's 

fine. As a reminder we're only putting it in as a reminder. If anyone 

else feels comfortable -- feels that they would be better off with it 

in there, then go right ahead and do that. But in the meanwhile I'm sorry, 

but we absolutely need to move ahead with this. There is so much work 

that we still have to do. We are at least three to four months behind 

our original agenda in getting these things done so I would like to see 

us move ahead. Does anyone else have a problem with that or do you feel 

that we should take a vote on whether we should just move ahead today? 

>> This is Lise Hamlin. 

I understand Janice' position but I actually agree with your suggestion 

as having it be under 1A, so that to me sounds like a reasonable compromise 

in making sure it's noted but put it under 1A. 

>> Thank you, Lise. Does anyone else have any other comments that they 

wish to make at this time? 

Hearing none --

>> Terry, this is Rose Marie, could I unmute Janice now? 

>> Yes. Fine. 

>> Operator, please unmute Janice Schacter. Thank you. 
>> Jim, would you -- I'm sorry. I'm trying to move the form back into 

my position here so I can read it. 

Directional signs including directional exit signs...as this currently 

stands, we have it only as a visual. We're not doing tactical. We're 

not saying that it's not required and we do not have the rail type in. 

Do we want it to be tackal or visual on any type of rail visual? 

Does anyone have any comment on that? 

>> This is Frank again. I was thinking unless there is a good reason 

that it wouldn't apply to all that typically all of these would apply 

to all and maybe if there is a reason for a distinction on a particular 

one, that's when we should note it. 

>> Frank, could you elaborate on that? 

I'm not sure I understand. 

>> We, I'm saying every time we decide that a sign is necessarily, whether 

we decide it's visual or VMS or tactile, I think the rail types should 

be all rail types. So everything is all unless there is a reason why 

a particular type of rail should be excluded or should have a different 

heading or designation. 

>> All rail types unless otherwise noted. Does that sound logical to 

everyone? 

Is anybody still here? 

>> This is Jim. I think the only thing we have gotten into in 

discussion-wise that's been where it's specifically required over one 

rail type over another is the priority seating. They're only required 
in certain types of vehicles. They're not required in all and that's 

the only thing I have seen where the rail type is different so far. 

>> Okay. 

So that kind of takes care of that column. 

Again, going back on the first item, the directional signs including 

directional exit signs. Again, VMS -- right now, I'm looking at visual. 

I believe that things like -- that things like exit signs -- especially 

the exit signs -- I guess that's what bothers me about this particular 

one is that the exit signs are in this category. I suppose the sign is 

saying this way to the exit sign. I'm really kind of thinking that that 

should be tactile in most situations as well. 

Now, they wouldn't all be able to be tactile because some of them are 

obviously up over a doorway kind of thing. I'm thinking that something 

like any directional sign that is within a -- you know, within -- less 

than five feet over -- within 60 inches of the floor. 

>> Terry, this is Jim. 

If the exit sign is at the door, over the door, next to it, on it, that's 

a designation sign and we have decided that is required to be tactile 

and visual. But if it's just a sign that says the exit is this way with 

an arrow, that's -- those times are what we are looking at for the first 
category. 

>> Oh, okay. That's where my mistake was on that then. 

Okay. So then we're just looking at it being visual. Then we're looking 

at VMS. Again, those need to -- if it's going to be VMS, it needs to 

be audible and be able to be -- it needs to be audible, it will be audible 

and visual -- it will be visual automatically if it's a VMS and we also 

need to have it audible and loop induction -- you know, able to be done 

as a loop induction system. 

Is my feeling on it. Do I have any other discussion on it? 

>> And then we're back to why is there not a column for induction. You 

know, I don't understand and this is exactly what I was trying to say, 

add a column. And if it's appropriate, you put an X. And if it's not 

appropriate, you leave it blank. I'm a little confused. But I will 

continue to voice my opinion since it will be on the record. 

>> This is Jim. Let me sort of step back for a minute and come at it 

from how a regulation would look at it and how I would sort of envision 

you want to deal with this issue. I would say that -- the first thing 

out of the box is any time an audible announcement is made in a vehicle 

or has the potential to be made in a vehicle, you provide a loop in that 

car, period. And therefore any audible announcement, whether it's 

dynamic or static or recorded or the conductor is saying whatever, it 

gets picked up by the loop. That's the first premise. You start from 

there. 

Then you go to the fact that if you provide an audible announcement, then 
perhaps certain types of those are also required to be in variable message 

signs or if it's provided as a variable message sign, it has to have an 

audible component to it. Any time -- if you have made the premise that 

the loop is required under any audible conditions, you have done that. 

I mean, it doesn't really matter whether -- you could have a VMS sign 

that's required for recorded messages only and the dynamic thing that 

are like the conductor getting on and saying -- you know, getting a certain 

message to people because it's kind of difficult to do dynamic in a VMS 

format, that wouldn't get picked up by the VMS, but it would get picked 

up by the loop because it's an audible announcement. So that's where 

I would sort of start with the issue. In other words, the loop is sort 

of hierarchy over everything else as a communication issue, not as a 

specific signage issue. 

>> This is Janice. I'm really not clear what you just said and I apologize 

but I don't understand it. I think then maybe we should change the 

category of signage, communication -- I mean, this is a communication 

group and we change it specifically from signage. I just want a column 

for induction loop. If it's appropriate, we put an X. If it's not 

appropriate, we don't put an X. I'm not clear why adding a column is 

that complicated. It just shows we have considered it and made a 

conscious decision. I'm not sure why induction loops are a footnote. 

I disagree with Lise Hamlin. HLAA has taken different opinions on 

induction loops and I have seen far too many people who leave off induction 

loops and some people understand it. They don't. I mean, the new civil 

rights museum in Atlanta was just built without --

>> Janice, I'll give you a column. I'm just do it. 

>> Thank you. 
>> But I think we should all understand that putting the column in is 

not reducing the importance of the loop. I think the way that Jim has 

suggested that we do it which is similar to what I had suggested with 

the row, gives it a higher priority than the column. But having a column 

in there is fine. 

But I do want to point out that we are giving it the highest possible 

priority by doing it this way. By doing it the way that Jim has suggested 

with this statement. 

>> This is Frank. Just real quickly. I think Jim thought and what he 

laid out is exactly the way I would treat it and it makes a lot of sense. 

Whether the column is there or not. I'm just clear that he understands 

exactly how it has to be done. 

>> Yes. That's a very good point, Frank. 

>> This is Janice. Frank with all due respect, LIR has taken a position 

they will only put induction loops in if mandated by law, so I just --

you know, I find when comments are coming from LAR not you as a person, 

but the LAR, they're insincere because the head of MTA, Thomas pend grass 

told me personally he does not want to put induction loops in rail cars 

so I have to take a different position and, you know, understand that 

when you're saying this, you're being told from your -- from the company 

head this is not what he wants so I think that has to be very clear to 

everyone on the committee and part of why I have to take a stronger 

position knowing what Tom's position to me was and what the general 

counsel for LAR has been to me in writing and I think if people understand 
that they may understand why my position is, I want everything documented. 

>> Okay. 

Let's move on. You make a very valid point, Janice. On the other hand 

we also have -- LAR is one of, I have no idea how many different systems 

where these -- what we're doing is not only going to affect LAR, but every 

other transit company in the country, and all of them have varying levels 

of interest and participation and -- but all of them have -- they all 

need to work on this -- we all need to work together on this and whether 

one particular person wants to or not is a power game that we don't need 

to get into with them right now. We need to show them what they do need 

to do and let them deal with it. 

>> Terry, I agree with you. Except -- and not to give them anymore power. 

They are the largest purchaser of rail cars in the country and 

unfortunately do lead the way for many other -- thankfully other rail 

companies and states don't feel that way and I'm hoping that will affect 

the change but it is giving me pause for concern since they stated they 

are the largest rail company in the country and have the largeest subway 

system in the country. It is a little unnerving when they change their 

position on this. So that's why we have to be a little clearer and I 

agree with that, 100% with what you just said. 

>> Thank you. 

Okay. 

Do we have anything else on the types of signage in rail 1? 

Anybody have anything else to add into this? 
>> This is Frank. Just to be clear saying the way it was in the handout, 

right? 

Right now it's just row 1 only has one X in it? 

>> Row 1 has one X in visual and we did the discussion about the VMS. 

I just wrote the word loop in under VMS, the note of what Jim said at 

the bottom to include later in my notes here. 

>> This is Frank again. I guess you were just starting the discussion 

on VMS, whether it's applicable to row 1, I would think it's not 

applicable. These are stationary-type signs and it's not of that type 

which would be a variable message sign. You don't want the PAs, you know, 

making an announcement all day long, exit, exit, exit, exit, so I think 

in this particular case visual is the only X in this row as it's currently 

written. 

>> Yeah, visual is the only one. I'm sorry. I only put the loop in there 

because that was where the conversation came up. Not because we're 

really actually going to -- the point is that at some time in the future 

if there are -- I think that that is an interesting issue, though, you 

bring up. 

If there are at some point VMSs that do give direction, should they only 

be visual then? 

And that's kind of what we just were talking with our whole discussion 

has been about, that if it's a VMS, it should be audible. And VMS, you 

know, it can very easily become something for -- that can fit into this 

category. 

If you have got VMS signs in the car saying cafe car 2 ahead, you know, 
or next car sleeping car or this car is not -- the doors are not going 

to open at the next station, that kind of thing, that could be done in 

VMS at some point, could it not? 

Though it may not be right now on -- I mean, it is a possibility, is it 

not? 

>> Well, I -- you know, this is Frank again. I was just going through 

what Jim had put together previously with trying to identify the 

designations of the signs, and, you know, I didn't find one specifically 

that said directional signs includes exit signs. Is there one in there, 

Jim -- was that one of the categories that you had separated out? 

>> First one up. 

Directional sign, parentheses include directional exit signs, close 

parentheses. 

>> Oh, I'm sorry. You know what, that's a good question. For the most 

part I believe these are static signs. If they were somehow became VMS 

signs, I guess it's possible but as soon as they became a VMS sign, they 

would be. You know, I don't know if -- I guess the point is that do you 

have to have this type of sign be a VMS and I don't think you have to. 

>> No, I don't think you have to have the sign VMS but what if you had 

-- I'm trying to think of an example. What if you had a sign -- it doesn't 

really qualify as directional. In a way it does. What if you have the 

machine -- vending machines for instance on the car, ticket machines where 

you can buy your ticket on the car and it's saying the VMS could very 

well say use next machine, out of order, that kind of thing. 
>> Terry, this is Blair. Just to give you an example, and I wish Ed was 

on from jersey Transit because they were doing some stuff that we started 

tinkering with, with visual messaging or variable messaging signs on 

cars, and what we did on each end of the car, on the corridor, there is 

a sign. And now it's actually a static sign and it just has a fixed 

message, but at one point it was a changing sign and it would give you 

information, can information but on a regular interval, it would go to 

say exit this end, you know, the standard stock message and that was just 

sort of a reinforcement to the strictly static signs that are applied 

elsewhere in the car. 

I don't know if we want to get into that kind of detail about what VMS 

systems are going to do, but it's just bits and bites in a computer, so 

to have that kind of thing in there at some interval where there's not 

a conductor's message going up, it can flash up for a number of limited 

seconds, exit this end or cafe the other way, but it would not replace 

entirely the static applied physical sign on the car. 

>> You make an excellent point, Blair. I was on a commuter rail recently 

that had something very similar to that that was basically that type of 

thing, that told you which end of the car to get off at, at each one of 

the rail stations. 

>> This is Blair again. 

From a visual -- and you tell me, Terry, I have to ask you this. From 

a visual impairment standpoint, if you're say in the middle of the car 

and it's an 85-foot long car and the sign -- the signs that say exit this 

way or maybe they're properly sized and they're in the lit environment, 

that static sign versus occasionally having a lit, an illuminated sign 

that flashes, does that create a better situation from a visual standpoint 
for someone who has reduced vision? 

>> It often does because -- then that's another whole issue and that is 

when you get into color contrast and especially one of the worse column 

contrasts that any ophthalmologist I've ever encountered will tell you 

is black on red combination and that's the most common VMS combination. 

>> Well, I think that's largely because for so many years the most 

available and reliable LEDs were red. 

>> Exactly. 

>> That has changed so much and there's so many things that occur now 

where the technology has caught up with the need that I think you can 

make it pretty much anything that it needed to be. 

>> Yeah. You can now. I think you're absolutely right. 

But that has been -- and the other issue about is a moving sign, something 

that's scrolling or flashing is harder for someone who takes longer to 

read something. It's taking them a little longer to focus on it and then 

it's gone before they get finished through the third word. That is 

another issue. Those are some of the real issues with VMS's. 

>> Okay. This is Blair again. I don't want to linger too long on VMS 

because we are talking so much about the more static signs. But will 

we take time during this process to give some definition to the VMS like 

you just mentioned. If you have a sign that is -- the written information 

is say scrolling left to right or it's scrolling up and down, I can see 

where that can be very hard to read even if you don't have a sight 

impairment. 

So if it says five words and then the screen changes and it says five 

more words versus a scrolling, is that kind of information something we 
want to put into our recommendation that it should be that and linger 

for a period of time so that it really does the job that it's intended 

to do? 

>> Well, I tell you I am going to the American Council for the Blind 

convention next week for about eight days and one of the groups that meet 

out there and the blind IT people and I am hoping to get together with 

two nationally recognized ophthalmologists on just this subject and 

invite one of them -- or possibly both of them to actually do a 

presentation for us on just this topic I'm hoping at our August 7th 

meeting, either August or September. Whichever one works with their 

calendars. But it is something I think we need to look at signage in 

general, the size of signage, the contrasting, what works for people who 

are color blind, what works for people from say visual communities like 

-- people within the stag mis-- several issues and I would love to have 

someone who's got some clinical background to do a presentation as far 

as -- and I'm hoping I can line that up next week when I'm in Las Vegas. 

>> That would be Awesome and I'll hush now so we can get through the rest 

of the table. 

>> Well, this is Frank. I just followed along with what you're saying 

it blings one thing to mind. One of the problems with the VMS sign it 

is being able to read the spoken word as quickly as you can hear it and, 

you know, our systems we have very close station stops and we have ASI 

signs. For us it's called automated station identification where you 

identify the next station, the final destination and you try to do that 

at set points when you're arriving and leaving a station. And after you 
do all that, you really don't have anymore space or time to announce 

anything else, so when we do the VMSs it's nice to say that everything 

that is audible has to be visual but you can't read as fast as you can 

hear. 

>> What else are you putting on your VMSs? 

>> I'm just saying if you want to add more things to the VMS signs often 

as the locations, the doors, or you want to make candid announcements, 

it's a difficult thing to do. To repeatedly make a candid announcement, 

you know, the last two cars don't open the doors or something like that. 

Depending upon the announcement is not easy to add and once you have gotten 

the rhythm of a station identification sign. I'm just saying we were 

looking to adding other things to VMS is what you were talking about, 

you know, doors open right, doors open left. You know, some of that would 

be good information especially if you have repeatedly only open on one 

platform or the other. WMATA does it I think on some of their equipment. 

>> WMATA does it for -- for instance, in Boston, it's automated 

announcements and even between let's say Park Street and Downtown 

Crossing which is probably about certainly under 30 seconds between those 

two stations, they can manage to say next stop Downtown Crossing. Doors 

opening on the left and then when it pulls into the station says Red Line 

to Braintree which is what it's actually saying on the VMS. Now, my 

question back on whether -- to you just to ponder is so what happens to 

the poor sucker that gets on and wants to get off the train at a specific 

stop and he doesn't know that those two doors, those two cars are not 

going to open? 
>> I mean, that is a good question. I mean, the audio announcements are 

made. The difficulty is getting the visual announcements because that's 

more of a nonstandard announcement and those are harder to make and 

nothing's impossible but they're harder to make. So typically you'll 

always get the audio announcement because they'll be able to make that 

announcement after the trains are stopped even if the signs are still 

scrolling. 

>> So as long as they're making an audio announcement, then we're at least 

getting a loop announcement -- we can have it on the loop. 

>> The loop is required. Anything that goes over the PA will also be 

going over the loop. 

>> Exactly. Exactly. 

>> Terry, this is Jim. Could I make a recommendation? 

>> Sure. 

>> The way I'm looking at the table as far as the VMS is concerned, I'm 

looking at the table from a standpoint of which one of these categories 

do you want to require to be in VMS, variable message sign? 

In addition to that I would take VMS up to a higher level just like we 

did the loop and say a general charging statement about the VMS signs 

generally. In other words, if we say let's say standard pre-recorded 

announcements are made, those have to be in VMS as well and just start 

from there and then if it's -- whatever it is, it's provided and then 

if you want to specifically say okay these are things you want to require 

to be in VMS, that's a more specific issue. And the other thing is I 

think we need to sort of leave the technical requirements, in other words, 

what the color of the sign and the intelligibility of the audio to later 
date and get to these scoping things first. 

>> Yeah. 

Okay. 

I agree with you to the -- essentially but I do think that if we're going 

to raise VMS, that way, the other thing we need to do is say -- if VMS 

is used, then it needs -- then it needs to be audible and it needs to 

be accessible. 

>> Absolutely. 

>> It needs to be accessible. 

And so that covers audible and for the deaf and hard of hearing. It covers 

everybody. 

>> I just said the pre-recorded stuff because I'm like Frank. Know that 

the dynamic stuff that comes over that's not pre-recorded and just comes 

over is a much harder thing to put up in VMS than a standard pre-recorded 

thing is. It's doable, but it's expensive. 

>> Right. Is it VMS? 

Is it possible to -- if you're the conductor on the commuter rail, is 

it possible for you to even do VMS? 

While you're sitting on the train? 

>> I don't know. My gut reaction is it's probably doable with maybe some 

voice recognition software which is probably going to be real expensive. 

I'm whistling in the wind here. I don't know. 

>> I am too. You know, do they even do VMS immediately, ad lib VMS if 

you will? 

>> This is Frank again. I mean, from my experience with them, like Jim 
had pointed out, trying to get voice recognition systems to accurately 

reproduce visually what you're hearing is a difficulty thing to do. Even 

the CART text that we have here makes mistakes and somebody's constantly 

correcting it. So that's a difficult thing to do on the fly. Every time 

we look into it, it's really a very difficult thing to get accurately 

done. You need somebody like the CART person here to be sitting there 

and correcting all the text. 

>> This is Lise Hamlin. Can I just in here? 

>> Sure, go ahead. 

>> Here's the thing...when we put these things together, they stay for 

a very long time. It's not like we're going to -- once we get these rules 

-- we're just advising and the board writes them and then how many years 

ahead of now are they going to be in effect? 

So my understanding is we want to write it with the idea that technology 

changes and we'll progressively be better. So we don't want to write 

it so strictly so you can't possibly do it but on the other hand we don't 

want to write it without looking to the future where in fact it will be 

more possible to do some of this and I worry about things like emergency 

because you can't even now have -- you can even now have emergency signage 

that is dynamic. So the station master or somebody can type it in and 

put it in and it's realtime. And you don't have to know CART in order 

to put it in. So that can happen now and perhaps for that situation we 

should be saying when possible, this should be accounted for. You know, 

we can write it in such a way that we are allowing for the fact that voice 

recognition will definitely get better. It's going to get better at some 

point. We've been waiting for a long time. And that there are always 

work-arounds, but if we don't put it in, if we don't allow for it, then 
we'll wait another 20 years and play catch-up again with technology. 

That's my concern. 

>> This is Janice. I agree with Lise and the other thing is voice 

technology right now is only 92% from my understanding. But when it's 

the same voice, that is repeated over and over, it increases dramatically. 

So I think that -- if we have the same -- and also my understanding from 

the MTA is that they're adding announcements from a base control where 

it's -- this is my understanding from a recent meeting, that they can 

from a command center in New York City for buses, when they're having 

variable messaging, they can change that on the screen as well from a 

base center and then communicate that to all the buses. So it may be 

a delay, but also if let's say only one door is opening and we know that 

ahead of time, then that's called planning and it can be planned ahead 

of time. But in an emergency, we can also communicate that and I think 

we need to think about one voice and how that's communicated. 

Rather than just eliminating the category. 

>> Well, this is Frank again. I don't think we're eliminating the 

category and I think Jim had a very good suggestion of how to handle it. 

Just because something is not required doesn't necessarily mean it 

doesn't get done. We have station identification signs and had it for 

10 signs and there's no regulation requiring that but we did because it's 

a custom or amenity. It's good to require what can be done. I think 

it's wrong to require what presently can't be done and have somebody 

trying to buy a piece of equipment that they can't buy because the 

technology doesn't exist yet. You know, just because we say only the 

ones that are caned have to be repeated doesn't mean that if somebody 

can do the opposite they will. 
>> This is Janice. I can tell you that for absolute 100% certain fact 

if it's not required for people with disabilities, it will not be done. 

My every day job is about even when it is required getting people to do 

it. People with disabilities have zero market force. People will not 

do it even when it is clear as day. You look at the number of curb cuts 

that are not there, entrances to stores that should have wheelchair 

access, the list can go on. So saying oh, of course we'll do it, really 

nice. But when you do have -- the FCC had to mandate captioning standards 

because when there are no standards for captioning, whatever words were 

slapped against the screen counted as captions and there was no way a 

person with a disability of enforcing captioning standards whatsoever, 

I know because I did it and I wrote standards for television commercial,, 

so that's not accurate. That would be a lovely sentiment if it was 

accurate but it's not and I actually have made a full-time job of literally 

complaining about access. 

So I know it's not true. 

>> You haven't been at the railroad 10 years ago telling us to put them 

on, so it is possible that people are going to do things. 

>> Six years ago. 

>> All I'm saying is you shouldn't require things that are not currently 

possible because you're creating problems. You can't buy a car that 

doesn't have it. You have a problem. 

You know, I know maybe you don't care about that, but that's reality. 

When somebody goes to buy a car and they're asking for a system that can't 

be made, you wind up having discussions day after day and it just doesn't 

exist. You can't buy a car. There's cost overruns and all that costs 

money to every single person using the equipment. So it's not so simple 
as build it, they will come. You know, write the rule of what you can 

do, and you know what you can do, those are minimum requirements and if 

technology changes in the future and you want to increase it, then you 

do it then. But don't do it before it exists because you're going to 

create a problem with people buying equipment and the ultimate person 

who's going to suffer is the person who's trying to use new equipment 

when they can't buy it because it doesn't meet the regulations. But don't 

get carried away thinking that you have to write for the next 20 years. 

That's a mistake. You're going to wind up creating rules that can't be 

met by anybody and nobody's going to be buying new equipment for the next 

10 years and everybody will suffer. You just got to keep that in mind. 

What you need is what we should be putting in the regulations, the minimum 

requirements. Not what you would like to have. 

>> Frank, just for clarity-sake, I worked with three New York City transit 

commissioners starting with Peter and the head of MTA, so one I have done 

it for say 10 years. Secondly, don't require legislation for what can't 

be done, but you write legislation looking forward and so it evolves, 

big difference. And third, you never write for minimum standards. You 

write to make it work. And, yes, it can be done, and no one is trying 

to waste money. But I will tell you this, having worked with the New 

York City Transit on adding induction loops for buses for hearing loops, 

having done a pilot and having it be part of the capital campaign fund 

with Howard Roberts and then having Thomas Pendgrass eliminate it even 

though I have the pilot program, that again is disgenuine and there are 

incredible penal on the Access Board who know how to write legislation. 

>> Guys, I'm...I realize that not everyone on your committee is going 
to agree with every detail, but for the sake of today's meeting, I don't 

want us to belabor it longer. 

>> Thank you, Chris. 

Getting back to our chart here...on the second row, I think we are pretty 

much in agreement -- I -- I'm sorry. I did have a question for Jim on 

the second one, which is the E, the ISA should be required at required 

wheelchair spaces and be located blank. Is that supposed to be -- and 

be located next to some other chair or is that supposed to be at three 

feet? 

Not sure what your blank meant. 

>> The blank is, the committee hasn't made that decision. They said they 

want the ISA at the wheelchair spaces but they haven't really said where 

they want it, on the ground, on the wall, on the ceiling, on a sign, on 

a pedestal next -- or how high, how big, how low, whatever. I just left 

it blank because you need to sort of tell people where to put it more 

or less. That's what the blanks are. 

The blanks are the committee hasn't made a decision as far as the location 

for that particular issue. 

>> Okay. Does anyone have any particular comments on this particular 

issue? 

>> Yeah, this is Frank again. Just to follow up with what Jim was saying. 

Any time we have a tactile or visual sign requirement, we said we wanted 

to put a location for it so it can be found and everyone that's there 

has that same comment so it makes a lot of sense. 
>> It does. 

Anybody else have anything else they want to say about it? 

I do. 

And that is that I think the ISA needs -- does anyone feel like I do, 

does anyone feels that the ISA needs to be in a location beyond other 

than just where a wheelchair goes? 

For instance, on many of the public transit systems, they have been by 

by the side seats on a bus or the first set of seats beyond the wheelchair 

area or someplace. Do we or do we not say there needs to be other seats 

for people with disabilities who are not in a wheelchair? 

>> Those are the priority seat that is we're talking about -- those are 

nonemergency information signs. 

>> Priority seating is -- doesn't go the same as wheelchair seating? 

>> It's the way that the DOT reg is currently written. They're required 

to be notified that these seats are available for people with disability, 

et cetera, et cetera. But they don't tell you how to do it and they don't 

currently require the ISA. 

>> And maybe that's why WMATA now is not putting it on it except where 

wheelchairs would go and what I've noticed is that far fewer people are 

getting up off of those seats -- are adhering to priority seating now 

because of that. Can we put something in about that or does that have 

to go to DOT? 
>> As far as making people get up, that's more of an operational issue. 

>> It is more of an operational issue. I'm not saying making them get 

up, but at least having the sign on the vehicle that this is priority 

seating? 

>> That's currently required. 

>> Is there also anything we can do about not putting the garbage pail 

being there and the luggage. I've never been on a trail without the 

garbage pail be there in the priority seating. 

>> What Jim is about to say, that's an operational issue and sounds like 

the luggage is in the way, and that's an operational issue as is the trash 

can issue too. So is that because... >> Yeah, this is Jim. This is from 

the commuter rail requirements currently about priority seating signs. 

Each car shall contain signs which indicate that certain seats are 

priority seats for persons with disabilities and that other passengers 

should make such seats available to those who wish to use them. And then 

it goes into characters on the sign shall require, blah, blah, blah and 

this is the only place where there's technical for signage in the 

guidelines. 

>> But it does say there should be signs for priority seating? 

>> Right. And that other passengers should basically move but they don't 

tell you the specific language on how to put it and currently they don't 

require the international symbol. 

>> Right. But I'm reading what we have on this chart right now, we're 
saying that the only place that they need to put the signs is where the 

wheelchair seating is? 

Am I wrong --

>> That's for the designation of the space. This is more of informational 

sign about how you use the seat. Not necessarily the designation of the 

seat. I guess you could put them both in the same category if you want. 

>> It is for the designation of the seat though. It's these seats here 

are the priority seats. 

I mean, what makes that -- I'm just trying to think -- no, I'm just trying 

to see where the flaw is in my thinking. What makes that empty space 

for the wheelchair different than -- other than the seat next to it for 

people with disabilities other than a wheelchair user? 

They're both designated spaces, aren't they? 

>> It's just the way the regulation is currently written. It's just 

saying these seats are required to be usable and people should move. 

>> Yeah. I'm just saying it looks like we're leaving that out in this. 

>> I think the table has it. If you look at E and F and maybe it prints 

on your second page as it did in mine. The ISA shall provided under E 

under the notes that he has under the chart in required wheelchair spaces 

and the ISA should be provided for priority seating. So both of them 

are required to have the ISA sign. 

>> I'm sorry. You're right. That's exactly what I'm missing. I missed 

the difference in -- that's exactly what it is. I missed that. I 

apologize. 

>> I'll basically take it out of F and put it into E and just make it 

part of --
>> I missed it in F. 

>> No, it was done slightly differently. I'll just change it and make 

them both a designation rather than an informational. 

>> Yeah, I mean, they're both listed. It's just that one is E and one 

is F. It is confusing because you would think the ISA signs would apply 

to the priority seating and the wheelchair seating and Jim pointed out 

that wasn't the case even though we have and many other people have put 

those in both locations. It wasn't required. But these will make it 

clear and that makes sense. 

>> Okay. Thank you. 

Anyone else have any other discussion on this topic? 

Nonemergency informational signs... we're saying -- we have B and F. 

>> We have moved F so you have discount that. 

>> So it would be meet the requirements for -- that's nonemergency 

information. Any other comment on that one? 

>> This is Frank. I had a comment on that and I was looking through the 

list again that Jim put together and advertising signs comes to mind. 

We typically have a good amount of advertising signs on the cars and there 

are all kinds of fonts and it's all artistic for the most part. It's 

not just informational and if you require them as advertising signs to 

meet the visual requirements, that's really going to limit how the 

advertisers makes signs. I don't know if it's a real necessity but that 

advertising signs be included with the visual requirements. 

>> Well, footnote B makes the caveat of where practical for all those 
signs in that designation. 

>> Jim, I'm not sure legally we can cover... 

>> Advertisement? 

>> Yeah. 

I'm pretty sure we can't, but let's get --

>> Will people have heartburn just about exempting advertising? 

>> This is Blair. You know, a lot of graphic designers in the advertising 

world miss -- well, they design for their own age, so they use a lot of 

small and trendy things that they don't realize a large number of people 

without -- that can be categorized as having visual impairments and they 

can read them. So if they're foolish enough to advertise and not making 

sure people can read it, then shame on them. 

>> This is Janice. I think with advertising most of it is unintentional 

having worked with the C&A on captioning, they were most uncompletely 

unaware that most commercials were not captioned. As you said young 

people, they're not aware of it. I think it's also it's not on your radar, 

you're not aware of it. I don't see how you can require the advertising 

but I think what the N&A did do is they came up with voluntary 

recommendations and I think some of the organizations for visual 

impairments might want to work with the N&A and developing 

recommendations for what works and what doesn't to work with the ANA so 

they can disseminate that information to advertisers because if they sold 

for example that will benefit them not only on advertising but the package 

good for older adults. Most of the people in the meeting attended --

it's to association of national advertisers and what they are is a 
voluntary group of all the advertising agencies, corporations like Target 

belongs to them, Verizon and so when we worked with them to develop 

captioning standards completely unrelated to this they had no clue for 

example that many commercials were having captioning, many did not. They 

also did not know if they failed to put captioning on their commercial 

and the previous commercial did not put something called stop and had 

captions, those captions bled on to the previous commercial. I found 

most of it was an educational thing working with the association of 

national advertisers and developing standards and explaining to them for 

example the red-black color contrast. I don't think they have a clue. 

I don't think they understand the fonts. You can't mandate that because 

it may come under first amendment issues. But I can give them legal 

advice but I do think starting with the ANA would be a good starting point. 

>> The ANA is a very good starting point and the BLN, the business leaders 

network, but making some huge strides forward in various areas in the 

last couple of years, both of them I think are greatly -- are very good 

resources. There is another group that did -- and I can't remember the 

name of it but I know someone who was involved with it. There is another 

group that's done a lot of work on coming up with the things like just 

exactly how much spendable resources people with disabilities have and 

it actually blows them away as soon as they find out. 

Especially marketers. 

So I think you make an excellent point there, Janice. 

Thank you. 

>> And I'm happy to help anybody who wants to work offline on that, but 

I think we may run into first amendment issues but that's something the 
Access Board can determine. 

>> Okay. Thanks. 

Nonemergency information signs...we have it being just visual and B and 

F and I still keep forgetting B and F and have to go back and look, size 

requirement. That's something I should remember. 

>> Where practicable. 

>> Yes, where practicable. 

Does anyone have anything else -- again, this is another one -- I think 

-- this is where I think, Frank, you were talking about having additional 

information that's not emergency, that may be audible that this is where 

I think we get into the possibility of the VMSs again or does anyone else 

agree with me or am I off in left field here with this? 

>> I think you bring up a good point and the way to read this thing and 

to understand what each one of these categories mean is to go through 

the list that Jim put together. I mean, I find it very helpful because 

you forget where some of these signs go, so the question -- I have a 

question, is this list of categorization going to be provided as part 

of the rule because there could be misinterpretations as to which sign 

goes into which category? 

Was that your intent, Jim? 

>> I'm not real sure how you guys are going to recommend packaging it. 

Again, the current standard for building sort of breaks it down into two, 

maybe three categories that is sort of all incompassing but, you know, 

you're doing different things here with specific caveats so I'm going 
to step back and wait, see what you guys finish up with. 

>> Yeah, because I'm thinking without the explanation of what the -- you 

know, which signs apply to what category makes it very confusing. And 

what you did here is a real good thing is some examples and going through 

some of those examples. I know we spent some time doing it. But I think 

some of this stuff needs to be flushed out again. 

>> Yes, I think that once -- I'm seeing this as a working document. Not 

as a final document, you know, at this point. 

>> This is Jim. I think I would look at it from the standpoint -- I'd 

look at the columns and when you finish figuring out which signs have 

to do what, I'd take the tactile and visual and say these sign haves to 

comply with tactile and visuals with these caveats and then these signs 

have to comply with only the visual with these caveats and then these 

signs are required to be VMS and also be audible, you know, et cetera 

and do it that sort of way. 

>> Right. And I think that -- and from my understanding I think Frank 

is saying but what we're using as rows, what we're using as categorys 

on each row here, some of those are definitely going to need some further 

definition, are going to need further definition. 

>> Sure, and we can do that. 

>> Other than -- yeah. We all know what we're talking about, but -- at 

least we like to pretend we do, but I'm not sure if other people would 

at this point. 

All right. Nonemergency -- where am I? 

Yeah, nonemergency information and that one, again, you know, if we're 

talking VMS, we need to look at the idea of being accessible VMS. Hearing 
nothing else, let me go on. Nonemergency operational signs...this is 

visual/tactile -- the first one was D, the second one was C --

>> This is Jim again. The way I put this together, for this category 

is the general overarching for all the signs in the category, you meet 

the visual requirements first and you meet the size requirements where 

practicable but then we had a discussion about specifically for 

instructions which would be operational for door latches and locks, and 

we sort of had this -- that's where D comes in. It's a very specific 

sort of subset that sort of says, okay, for these signs, we're going to 

require those to be tactile and visual because we think that's important 

and again we haven't specified where the actual sign is to be located. 

One assumes at the latch above to the right below. Something like that. 

Probably above so it's in the range that somebody can read it standing, 

but other than that, that's where that sort of extra X came in, it was 

a more very specific requirement for doors, latches, and locks. 

>> My question on that is should those door -- is there a situation and 

can anyone think of a situation where those instructions for doors, 

latches, and locks would be something that you would want and maybe I 

do know the answer to this as I'm saying it -- wait, you would want 

passengers to know how to do this if it's nonemergency. I suppose the 

latch for the restroom door is -- I think that does have like a little 

push to the left or something like that kind of sign. 

I was just trying to think wouldn't most of this fall under -- most of 

these signs would fall under emergency information, would they not? 

>> Well, I think what we were looking at were just the instructions to 

open the door to the toilet room and that was sort of from the 
manufacturers and the train folks basically said that sometimes the 

mechanisms was kind of complex and it needed to have instructions come 

with it >> Right. I'm thinking though what about the emergency entrance 

-- the emergency exit window. What about an emergency exit way of opening 

a door in case of an accident. 

>> That would be done in the emergency operational signs which we haven't 

discussed yet. 

>> And most of these would be -- yeah, okay, all right. Okay. Because 

I think we need to just emphasize that this is a nonemergency operational 

signs which you have done. And then emergency information signs is the 

next category. 

>> Before we go on, Terry, can I ask the group about the door signs, do 

you have any preference about where it should be located? 

>> Which door sign you're talking about? 

You're talking about the toilet door sign or --

>> Any time you provide a sign that gives instruction about how to use 

a door latch or lock, and it's probably going to be the toilet room sign 

or the sleeper car or the toilet room in the sleeper car --

>> Or the thing on the Amtrak where its says push, for instance, you would 

be including that, would you not? 

>> Yes. 

>> I would think -- I think next to or below and that's going to depend 

on the space that you have. So I don't know if you want to lock it down 

to one particular area, but I think either adjacent to or below the lock 

would make sense. 
>> This is Blair. For tactile, is there a height above the floor so it's 

readable? 

>> Yes. Yes. 

>> Yes. 

>> So maybe that becomes the driver if it's -- if that height is above 

the latch or below the latch, as long as the sign is, you know, at or 

above the height. I would think ideally to the left or just above the 

latch. But if the latch is really high, maybe it needs to be under it. 

I guess that's sort of subjective. 

>> Yeah, I think we need to put in a range and I believe there is a range. 

>> The building requirement for these types of -- for tactile signs is 

48 to 60 inches. That's the range. 

>> It was 40 or 48. I knew it was one -- and then that to me seems like 

it would be the logical thing. Again, use the 48 to 60 inch. You do 

not want it -- if you have got the latch down at 36 inches, you don't 

want to have a tactile sign below that because that's just making it --

signage down that low is very difficult for people to use either with 

low vision or use tactilely. 

>> Well, this is Blair again, Terry. To that point, the operational part, 

functional part has to be at 48 or below to be reached, so looks like 

it's going to generally be next to or above the latch. 

>> Yeah, as long as it's 48 or below, then next to or above would be the 

ideal. I suppose if it's something that we're talking that's only --

I don't know if that would fit. If it's something that's only visual 

that we had like a one-foot sign over a door -- but that wouldn't really 

qualify in this category. So I think we should go with -- my feeling 
is that we should go with to the left -- I'm sorry. Beside or above in 

the 48 to 60 inch range. 

>> Terry, you know, the unintended consequence of this discussion is that 

we're going to start looking for very functioning latches that don't need 

signs to tell you how to use them. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> That's ta good thing. 

>> Yeah. That's a good thing. We make it obvious and we save the money 

of the sign and the confusion --

>> There you go. 

>> So it's a win-win all the way around and it would all be because we 

were told to put a sign there if it was needed. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> Do we have any further discussion? 

Emergency operational signs. No, we actually don't have any Xs on this, 

do we? 

>> No, we have two votes from the committee. One to put it in visual 

and one to put it in not required. 

>> And, Jim, could you just give us a quick refresher on what emergency 

operational signs are. 

>> Informational signs...oh, fire extinguisher, fire cabinet located 

below or --

>> These are the operational? 

No, these are the informational. 

>> Informational. 
The location of a specific thing about how to -- where something is to 

go -- emergency release is located in the panel next to the door -- I 

don't know, something like that. 

>> As opposed to operational? 

>> Right. Operational would be the sign -- the little sticker that Frank 

was talking about that you put at the window which is the emergency egress 

window that says, you know, pull off the two red things, push it out and 

climb your rear end out as quickly as you properly can, this sort of thing. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> My feeling is anything that's an emergency situation should be 

available in as many formats as possible, be it visual, be it tactile, 

be it audio loop, I mean, induction loop, audible -- somebody narrow me 

down and let's get other people's feelings on both of these. 

>> This is Janice. I agree. It's really frightening I think if you're 

in a situation and you were dependent upon other people and I think we 

need to put in as many formats as possible so that, you know, people --

we can't count on other people to tell -- especially if you're a person 

with a disability. I think that's what prevents you from traveling, is 

being scared and plus you're not going to have the information in a 

critical situation. I think all of this is irrelevant in a day-to-day 

setting because you can always get it. But it's really scary if you're 

in a heightened situation like a 9/11 situation or a train cash or anything 

-- and you may not have the person next to you available. 
>> And there are several situations where in which you actually as a 

disabled person may well be the person who can handle the situation better 

than most anyone else on the vehicle. You know, if I don't know the trail 

gets derailed in a tunnel, a blind person is going to be able to get through 

that tunnel a lot faster than somebody trying to grope their way through 

the dark who's not used to being in the dark. 

>> Absolutely. 

>> I remember one time years ago delta airlines did specific training 

with blind people on operating the emergency evacuation and such for just 

that reason because a blind person is much more used to handling something 

in what sighted people would see as an adverse situation. 

On the other hand, most fire safety training is -- and it's an issue that 

the disabled community is starting to finally take a serious look at. 

Most training now tells to get everybody out first and get the disabled 

people last. 

>> Really? 

>> Yes. There's an awful lot in the training -- I've been doing some 

work with some people from Norway on that. That because what it really 

boils down to is a matter of numbers and that doesn't make sense when 

you have got people who, you know, whose life do you want to put a price 

on? 

It's just a -- it's a very interesting situation and it has all kinds 

of ram my cases. Think -- ramifications. I think we'll see more about 

it in the next few years. 

>> Terry, this is Jim. Could I ask a quick question? 
In the blind community, is there still a big gull between the people who 

read by the tactile letters versus those who read primarily with braille? 

>> I know almost no one that uses tactile lettering. I know some people 

-- I use it a little bit but since I know braille and use the braille 

usually -- raised letters are just harder to read because oftentimes the 

raised letters are maybe very large because it's -- they're using the 

same letters for the large print. They're just making large raised 

letters and then you have got to trace all the way around it for instance. 

I just do not know many people who use raised lettering myself. I can 

probably get us some better statistics on it but that's been my 

experience. 

>> That would probably be a good idea because I'm thinking in terms of 

where you have got a sign that you're going to require to be tactile. 

It may be that because you have spatial constraints and you can't do it 

because I ice so large, you might be able to do it with just the braille 

alone and not inlewd the tactile letters. I don't want to -- I think 

there is a large number of people that still read tactile letters only 

--

>> I'm not sure if there is a higher population. It's a lower population 

of blind people who read braille. That's not a very high population 

anymore. Because we have made so many mistakes with it back in the 1970s 

and '80s when we were teaching generations not to -- well, we stopped 

teaching generations to learn braille. We didn't teach it anymore 

because we had cassettes. Everybody could learn by listening so it 

created a generation of truly illiterate people. 

>> To recognize that vision loss is a natural occurring thing and it's 
quite different for someone who is blind at birth or is -- or loses their 

vision as a child to learn to read braille versus someone who is 60 and 

begins to lose their sight. 

>> That's true. Blind demographics are an interesting issue because so 

many blind people -- I'm not sure what the median age is now. I know 

at one point it was around 70. I'm it will not sure what it is now. But 

the majority of people who are blind who would -- I think I'm trying to 

look at the demographics of the ones who would be traveling independently 

on rail vehicles. You know, that's I think where we need to, you know, 

we need to look at what's that demographic and that's where you're going 

the find people who read braille, who don't read braille. Who have onset 

blindness. 

>> Okay. I was just looking to parse the requirements --

>> Yeah, it isn't a nice simple everybody who's blind kind of thing 

unfortunately. 

>> I kind of figured but I thought I'd ask. 

>> Terry, this is Blair. Just from what happens in an emergency 

situation, at Amtrak, for example, we have usually like a minimum of three 

exit options and I'm thinking about emergency windows and things like 

that. 

So our first option is we want people to go to the next car. Obviously 

when we start talking about accessibility in vehicles, that is an issue 

because the passage way on older cars. The second way is to go to --

the last option we want people to attempt is to go through the windows 

and that would imply that you have an accident that's pretty severe so 

that the ends of the cars are damaged or in such a situation that the 

last refuge is to go out of the window. But in all those cases when you're 
leaving the vehicle, the first instruction is to look outside and make 

sure that you're not leaving what you think is a bad condition only to 

be in a worse condition, maybe there's electrical wires outside the 

window, outside car. So when we think about the size of the signs that 

we're going to have to put on spaces, we have to think about that we're 

not obscuring the vision looking at as well. But to be very practical 

about what the evacuation processes are, and obviously we're thinking 

right now about what we have to look at, but in the future when passage 

ways between cars are the right width and those kinds of things, leaving 

the cars through the windows becomes again the last option. So I just 

try to keep everything in context as far as how we give the instructions 

and what we want folks to do. 

>> Yeah, I think you make a good point. Although I do think that -- and 

that's especially true for someone who's totally blind. However, 

someone who is legally blind or has low vision, would be able to -- you 

know, may well be able to look out and see. As far as the size of the 

instructions in that I think we always need to keep instructions to a 

minimum for anyone to read and I'm thinking on Amtrak, you have got great 

space for those kinds of signs in that you have got the big white space 

between each window that, you know, maybe if it sunt exactly on the window. 

It could be beside the window and you have got a lot of space there for 

them for example as an example. 

>> It depends on the configuration of the vehicle and sometimes the space 

between those windows is covered up by the curtains if you're on a train 

that has curtains and again, it's always based on my comments and what's 

already there in the vehicle, the most obvious space usually is the window 

itself except where we have -- if you're designing something new, you 
can design the space a bit better to house the sign and then it's much 

easier. But going back on old stuff can be a problem. 

>> Even the new stuff, Blair, I mean, our equipment, our customers 

typically like to have big windows and, you know, one of the pictures 

that I sent -- actually on two of the pictures that I sent out previously 

when I showed you the emergency exit sign dilemma, it's mostly window 

on the car. It's window, luggage racks and then the heater. So on a 

side wall there's really not a lot of space and the only space you have 

is to put a window so what you end up getting is a big window in that 

particular space. 

>> Right. And we do have requirements from the FAA about what the 

emergency window size is. It's a bigger dimension than some of our older 

cars already. 

>> I'm just saying that when you look at the side walls on some commuter 

-- maybe more commuter than the city. The CELA has big windows too. 

You'll see the windows take up the majority of the side wall except the 

luggage rack. There's not as much space as there was in the old cars 

-- I think it's a good thing. Big windows brighten up the car and make 

the car look bigger. 

>> This is Jim. Would it be possible to put the sign on the seat back? 

>> We typically get graffiti problems and stuff like that. But the sign 

that I think that we're talking about right now is a nonoperational, non--

emergency informational signs, right, that's what we're on. And one of 

the signs that I have here is a good example I think because it's one 

of the ones that I sent you a picture of. It's the passing between cars 

is pro -- prohibited while train is in motion. That's good advice and 
you can't really tell by the picture but on that sign it fits between 

the door window and the wall adjacent to it. So there is a little space 

over there. And with the lettering looks like it's about quarter to 3/8 

high and there is braille and there is a Pictogram. The point that you 

were making before if you're visually impaired, it would be nice if they 

typically did -- could read braille because you can make the sign 

reasonably sized with small lettering and braille, but trying to make 

the sign with 5/8 raised lettering and braille, you really wouldn't have 

any space for its. 

>> Frank, I don't have that in front of me. Do you have the dimensions 

of that sign there by any chance? 

>> Yeah, actual I I -- actually I do. The sign is about 4 and a quarter 

and 5 inches. There's two signs on the door. They're both 4 and a 

quarter inches wide. 

>> That can be done in braille and large print and have -- I think that's 

what you're saying. It does anyway. 

>> No, the one I'm talking about the lettering size is only 3/8. It has 

braille below it, but the lettering size was 5/8 of an inch, it couldn't 

fit in that 4-inch dimension unless it became a really vertically tall 

sign, then you wouldn't have space probably for the other one. 

>> I think I sent it to you. Maybe we'll attach it to the agenda one 

day. 

>> Yeah, and at some point, I will do a -- truthly, I don't have it right 

here in front of me. I'll do it up in braille and large print at some 

point and just send a screen shot or something to that effect. 

>> Yeah, maybe the next meeting maybe you can attach -- Jim, I don't know 

if you can do that. If you can attach what I sent out and include any 
additional ones that Terry put for the next meeting I think would be 

helpful. 

>> I'll see if I can find it, Frank. 

>> I'll send it again. 

>> Okay. Doesn't matter. Because I'm going to have do the Alt tags for 

them anyway. 

>> I guess the point I was getting to, Jim, you were pointing out if the 

typical visually impaired person was reading braille pretty well --

>> Which we don't know. 

>> Then you wouldn't be so focused on having the large lettering and this 

is a good example of where you can have braille without the large 

lettering. Terry, what is the consensus, you really need to have both 

--

>> Truthfully the large lettering will get far more people -- far more 

people use the large lettering than the braille. 

>> Okay. 

>> I'm not saying we should do away with the braille, but it's a much 

larger low-vision population than blind population. 

>> And most of the low-vision population don't know braille, right? 

>> Exactly. 

>> All right. Well, in this particular case I would like to, you know, 

add the B code if we're going to include anything because I think space 

practicality is a concern on these particular signs and then this is just 

-- you know, the one I sent out is one example. But there are other ones 

that, you know, could have similar issues with them, that you're only 
limited in space, and, you know, we tend to forget that you don't have 

that much space in a rail car once you get past the windows and doors 

and other spaces, so practicalty should come into play and maybe this 

one could be made bigger. I think it would come out looking a little 

strange, but I'm sure there's cases where it might not work that well 

and having that note there would leave you a way out. 

>> Terry, this is Blair. I think to Frank's point and we're looking at 

these things line by line. And if we took that sign as an example and 

made it as large as we think it needs to be and applied it to the same 

door or adjacent to the same door with all the other soons, FRA 223 type 

2, all that fun stuff has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 

It's going to be -- its could be strange. Could be crowded and could 

affect the function of everything, so I think somewhere along the line 

it would be a healthy exercise for us to take what we have done, what 

we're, you know, the straw man we have created and apply it in the real 

world with images and things like that and see how it looks so that at 

the end of the day we come up with the most practical recommendations. 

>> Would anyone consider -- I should shoot myself for suggesting this, 

but I will anyway. What would you think of the idea -- would people 

benefit from the idea, could we do -- our next meeting -- our next 

face-to-face is in September, is it not? 

I don't have my calendar in front of me. Is September or October our 

next meeting? 

>> September. 

>> September. I thought so. What would you think of the idea if we took 

some of these signs that Frank has sent us and if I took some of the signs 
that Frank has sent us and that Blair has sent us and created braille 

and large-print mark-ups of them, could we then, Blair, perhaps do a 

meeting like say at Union Station when everyone's here in D.C. and just 

tape them up on a wall and see just how much space we are actually talking 

about using? 

Would that be something of help to people? 

>> Terry, this is Blair. I was just trying to think through how we might 

do that. Do we need to actually use a vehicle or if we printed out, you 

know, the doorways and things like that and hung them on the wall, would 

that be, you know, get us close enough to an idea. I'm just trying to 

think about the logistics of getting say everyone into a vehicle to look 

at things could be a little bit tricky. 

>> Yeah, I was thinking -- you know what I did, Blair. You saw the ones 

I did too. So I did one that was the normal size and I did one that was 

what I thought to be ADA compliant as far as visual and tactile goes. 

I'm saying if you can blow up the signs, I can take a picture and put 

it on a car and take a zoom-in shot and a wide-in shot and everybody can 

see what it looks like from afar and up close. Basically I'm saying we 

can do what I did in a couple of locations with pictures. 

The drawings that I have for these particular signs, they're too scaled. 

They're actually car drawings and you can blow them up, I can print them 

out and put them in those locations and everybody can look at them. 

>> And so -- but the braille on them is to scale? 

>> On the drawings that I -- I'll send you the drawings. They're Auto 

cad drawings. I mean, I can try to blow them up again like I did with 

the other sign if you want. 
>> No, I have those ones that you sent me. I just don't have that computer 

in front of me right now. My lap top ran out of power and it's sitting 

dead at the moment. So I know I do have them I'll take a look at them. 

And see if we can -- I was trying to figure out if there was a way that 

perhaps we could give people examples of just what we are talking about 

for signs -- you know, for the size of how much space braille is actually 

going to take on something, how much space would the large print take 

with the braille on a sign, on some of the signs that we're referring 

to and that's what I was saying, I was thinking of some of the ones that 

you sent and especially that very large file that Blair had sent that 

time and I was just thinking I would be willing to, you know, print some 

out and cut them to the size that they're supposed to be and people would 

get more of a hands-on -- some people are not conceptual --

>> You know, I could do that too if you want. I mean, if I can blow them 

up, I can print them out real size for you and I can bring them down. 

It's just, you know, getting everybody in the car and the logistics 

associated with that. 

>> We can do them on the doorways in the Access Board meeting room or 

something --

>> Like I said I would be willing to blow up a couple of more and send 

them to you to see if they're blown up the right way because the guy I 

have doing them is not an expert in braille. But, yeah, I can do a couple 

more signs if you want other than the ones that I showed you. 

>> That would be great. Why don't we all -- then everyone knows what 

we're looking at. Everyone knows what we're talking about. I just want 

to be sure that everyone's visualizing it well. 

>> Frank, this is Blair. I would offer up we have got a very large printer 
here if -- just so that we keep everything in the right context of size 

of doors and spaces because we'll be inside of a room. I could -- if 

you have cross sections of your car, I can print them out full scale. 

They'll be in multiple, you know, maybe three or four sheets to be the 

width of a car, but if you want to do that, I could -- I'll volunteer 

to print those out and we can bring them down and tape them to the wall 

so that it's, you know, puts everything in a better context. 

>> Yeah, I think we could do that. 

>> Okay. 

>> That's great. 

>> I'm just saying those are the dimensions of the room and you can fit 

a train in our conference room, that's what it would be. 

>> I'm sorry. I can't hear you. 

>> Oh, I'm sorry. 

>> Side conversation. 

>> We're trying to talk among ours of how to make it work inside the 

conference room. 

>> I thought I heard Jim Pecht say between now and then he'll be a mark-up 

of the car. 

>> I heard that too. 

>> I definitely heard that. 

>> I thought I heard him say something about a 3D printer. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> Blair, you'll have to give me the number for rail plan. 

( LAUGHTER ) 

>> And we by the way want an induction loop check as well. 
( LAUGHTER ) 

>> Actually, can we get the mock-ups from rail plan just brought down 

here --

>> They're now manufacturering in that space unfortunately. 

>> Oh, crap. 

>> They don't move very well anyway. They're a little too fragile. 

>> Oh, and my card board ones were going to be so much more sturdy. 

>> Well, that's because I have faith in you, Jim. 

>> Well, folks, we have got about seven more minutes here, so where are 

we? 

>> We're on emergency information and emergency operation, kind of the 

two of them together. Should we say that we will kind of deal with those 

after we -- do we agree that -- do we agree that those should whenever 

practicable, whenever possible be both visual and tactile and of course 

VMS, the same topics for VMS and loop? 

Yes? 

No? 

>> I think VMS is not applicable, but I think visual and tactile is going 

to be difficult and I think, you know, once we look at the size of some 

of these signs, we'll see what that means. The other part about -- you 

know, the other part that I'm always nervous about or conscious about 

is any time we identify a tactile sign it has to be in a located or 

inspected area, so we have got to identify a location for it. You know, 

some of these signs that we have on our doors, not everybody has on their
doors, so it's hard to say that, you know, this particular sign has to 

be in this particular location. 

You know, when you see -- well, when we do the presentation you'll see 

that the space is really pretty limited. So either we'll be doing 

noncompliant signs or we won't be putting any signs up and I'm not sure 

which is worse, but, typically we put up a sign like the ones that are 

passing in between cars to try to avoid safety issues and people not 

realizing that you shouldn't go out the end door of the car. There is 

a lot of hazards on the outside and the more you tell people who can't 

see well to go outside, the more you're encouraging them to do that almost. 

You know, like I think -- I forgot who was saying -- Blair was saying 

it before. You know, if you're going to go out of an emergency exit, 

you want to make sure that the hazard outside is no worse than the hazard 

inside and the only way you can really do that is to see clearly or have 

somebody with you. If you're visually impaired and you have got a sign 

that says exit here, well, maybe that's not the best place to exit. You 

know, the end doors and the cars may be connected to another car and may 

not be, and the last thing you want to do is exit a door that you're 

expecting to go into another car and it's not there. 

So, you know, that's the concern, you know, whenever you're in an 

emergency sitlike that, you know, you want to go out, like Blair said, 

ideally you would like to go car to car that's the first priority if you 

can get them in that direction. So the emergency exits are always 

changing. It's not like in a building where the emergency exit is the 

emergency stairs and it's always that. The emergency exit on a car is 

going to vary depending on the situation and the last thing you want the 

person to do is go out the wrong exit. So providing that information 
in that format is a little bit concerning to me. 

And maybe we need to think about it some more, but it seems to create 

a problem when you have a moving emergency exit to identify the emergency 

exit to somebody who may not be able to see the hazards that exist once 

they go through that door. 

>> Frank, I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit because 

I think there are several -- it's always going to be situational. It's 

always going to be case by case and it's always going to be hopefully 

at the direction of somebody who in authority like a conductor or security 

or something like that. But that may not be the case so it's a situation 

where it's dark and you're in a tunnel. So does that mean nobody goes 

out -- again, if I'm blind and I open a window and I hear snap, crackle 

pop, and I smell smoke, I'm probably not going out that way, even though 

I can't see. So it's -- the question is how much information do you want 

to give everybody? 

And I think the answer is if you're going to give it to everybody else, 

you're going to give it to people with disabilities as much as you possibly 

physically can do. 

>> Jim, this is Blair. 

I'll give you a scenario and it's probably pretty typical for Long Island 

as well. The last door on a train -- on our trains is locked because 

there's no place to go if you go out of that door except on to the track 

and we discourage that. So the doors between cars are always unlocked. 

But we did get in a situation in an incident out in Nevada where there 

was fire in a car because a truck drove into the side of a car and an 

employee went toward the exit that he knew was at the other end of the 
car, got to the end of the car and it was the door to the baggage car 

which was locked because by federal law we have to carry firearms in that 

car. So now instead of spending time getting out of the window, they 

spent time going down to this door and had to turn around and go back 

in toward the fire to find a side door exit to get out of and as a result 

we had to put in signage that said don't go this way because it may be 

locked. It may not be locked. But it may be locked. 

It depends on how the train is made up. 

So as sure as we figure out one thing, there will be a scenario that just 

casts all that to the wind. 

>> And hence, case by case. 

>> Yeah, and it's very frustrating because like Frank said, a building 

is a very nondynamic situation. Once you take the elevators and 

escalators out of the situation, it's a pretty stable place. Doors are 

always where they're supposed to be. On a train, it is minute by minute, 

second by second apt to change. The vehicles don't change, but the 

situation that they're in is ever changing and that makes it all the more 

frustrating to try to get things right and sometimes it's -- you just 

hope for percentages that you get it right most of the time. 

>> Okay. This is Jim. We have about run out of time. I'm going to go 

out on a limb and say for both of these two emergency signs I'm going 

to tentatively put them in tactile and visual with a caveat to the extent 

practicable and locateed with a blank because we don't know where they're 

located yet. Is that okay with everybody or --

>> I think that's good and I think we should take it down to the next 

one as well. 

>> The caution signs? 
>> The caution and safety signs as well. 

>> Okay. 

Any objections? 

Hearing none, so ordered. 

All right. Terry, do you want to give anybody any home work assignments 

for next time? 

>> We're down to, what do we have? 

We have three left to do. Employee-only signs which we have already said 

is not required. I believe, although I don't see -- that one's done. 

Directories and staff identification signs, that's the only other one 

that I and we have 2 in A and I think that that absolutely needs to be 

included under VMS and loops and I would like to see it do a couple of 

other things with is that as well so I'm going to suggest that we hold 

off on that until the next meeting and that anybody would like to motion 

that we adjourn, I'll second it as chair. 

>> So moved. 

>> So moved. Thank you, guys have a wonderful 4th of July. 

>> Absolutely. Wonderful 4th of July. August 2nd is our next meeting 

and you'll be getting a presentation probably in the last week of July. 

I'll get that out as soon as I get it pinned down at the convention. 

Everyone, keep cool. I don't even want to look to see what the 

temperature and humidity are here, but I'm hoping that wherever you are, 

it's better than it is here. Oh, we're down -- we're only at 90 degrees 

right now. 
>> And for those of you on the east coast, watch out for the storm. 

>> Oh, yeah, what is it, Arthur? 

>> Yes. 

>> Everyone, stay safe. Enjoy the 4th of July. And thank you very much. 

>> Thank you. Enjoy the holiday. 

(End)