**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART)**

**system used in the Communications Subcommittee Meeting # 6** **and is generally unedited.**  **T he**  **CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real** **- time and available to the public on the internet during the**  **meeting.**

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD Thursday, July 3, 2014 RVAAC Teleconference Communications Subcommittee Meeting #6
>> The time is now 1:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm showing that you have four participants standing by. Did you want to give it another minute? >> Just a few. >> Is one of them Terry? >> Operator, do you have Terry on the line by any chance, Terry Pacheco? >> Excuse me. This is the operator. I'm now going to move your line into the main conference so you can begin. You'll hear music momentarily. I'll give a brief introduction and then turn the call over to you. >> Thank you. >> Welcome and thank you for standing by. All audio participant phone lines will now be open. Please activate your phone's mute feature to mute and unmute your lineswhen you are not speaking. You may also pressstar 6 on your touch tone phone to mute and unmute your lines as needed.

You host for today's conference is Ms. Rose Marie Bunales and you may now begin. >> Good afternoon, everybody. What I want to do is read off everyone's name and when you hear your name, please respond with the organization that you are representing. And I will give the operator a moment to unmute all lines and I do see that they're all open. Okay. Andre Gagne. >> Yes, I'm on the line but I can barely hear you. >>Well, I can hear you. Hello,Terry, but I cannot hear rose Marie that was speaking before you. >> Sorry about that. Is this better? >> No, I can't hear it either. It's Janice Schacter. >> No, it sounds like you're across the room, Rose Marie. >> It's not across the street. >> That's a possibility too. It sounds like definitely a speakerphone way across the difference. >> Sorry about that. Andre Gagne? >> Yes. >> Calvin Gibson. >> Rose Marie, I can't hear at all. I just hear the faint of the faint of... >> Calvin Gibson. >> Great. Thank you. Calvin Gibson. >> Hi. I'm here. Sorry. Muted.>> Billy Altom.

>> Here. >> Good. >> Janet Schacter. >> Janice Schacter Lintz, here. >> Terry Pacheco? >> Yes, I'm here. >> Blair Slaughter?
>> Here. >> Lise Hamlin? >> I'm here. >> Crystal Lyons? >> I'm here. >> Oh...I'm sorry. I just lost my screen. And Lisa Fairhall? >> I think I'm in listen
-only. >> And in the room I have gym, Melissa, Paul and myself and today's court reporter is Sherry Knox.Jim?

>> Okay. So this is Jim Pecht and I hope you got the agenda in front of you with the table in front of you and that ace basically where we are after the last meeting and it's clear that the big, bold Xs are sort of the tentative decisions that the committee has made about what requirements these
-- the different categories should comply with with the various specific footnotes about
-- >> Jim, this is Lise Hamlin. I did not get an e
-mail at least that I knowabout. I'vebeenawayforaweekor so, soisit possibleif somebody can re-send that with the agenda and the table? >> It was posted on the web. >> It was supposed to go when? I'm sorry. >> It was posted on the web. >> Okay. I will look at that. >> Jim, what does VMS stand for and I don't see anything about hearing on the chart. >> VMS stands for variable message signs.

>> Okay.Now, it doesn't look like any of these apply toward hearing, but I would

like a column on hearing so that hearing is not inadvertently omit and that this way we make a conscious decision not to make those hearing. You know, audible I guess is the proper word. >> I assume anything that's VMS is going to be audible as well except for really dynamic stuff and that's up tort committee. >>Then canwe call itVMS/hearing so people in the community understands what that means. I just don't want an oversight of audible not being added just because we don't understand it. Just so we make a conscious decision no, we don't want audible. >> Does anybody in the committee have a problem with that? >> Isn't that what the footnote 1 pertains to?

>> That was the comment that two people had on that issue.

>> I think if we just call it VMS/audible it will just be clear and this way if we don't
-- you know, then every time we look at a sign, like directional signs clearly does not have to be audible but it means we're making a conscious decision versus an oversight. >> I heard nobody saying no, so
-- >> Jim, this is Terry. The only
-- I don't have an issue with it as much as long as we have clarification that when we're calling it audible, VMS/audible, I don't see where VMS/audible is saying that it has anything to do with hearing. I shouldn't say doesn't have anything to do with hearing. I think what Janice is talking about is more like
-- you're talking more to do withloop induction, right, Janice?

>> Exactly. But I don't care what you call the column but I just want some sort of column that we acknowledge and think about should it have a loop? No. Great. Then we either put VMS or do put VMS but this way so it's included. Yes, Terry, thank you. >> I'm thinking audible on the VMS would also mean is the message beyond being visual is it audible aswell and thatwould not necessarily involve loop induction, so maybe we should just put a separate category. >> Well, this is Jim. We're just talking about signage at this point in time and the things that are audible, announcements also fall under the category of communication that we're going to deal with and I assume that the hard and fast rule at least that I was going to go with is if you provide something in an audible format, if you can, provide it in a visual format, and vice versa. If it's something that's done sort of in a dynamic sort of
-- well, not dynamic, but put up as an announcement. Not a static sitting on the wall sign, a print sign. >> Yeah, but the issue is at this point in time, we have got VMS all over the place and we have virtually no audible with it. So that just kind of shows that VMS doesn't automatically mean audible. That's kind of where one of our major problems is today. >> Well, let me try to clarify
-- this is Frank again. Let me try to clarify what I think Jim is saying. VMS is a variable message sign and the idea between what that means is listed in note 1 below, A-1 and it says specifically that if you're announcing something audibly, you also have to have a visual complement to that. That's what the variablemessage sign is.

>>Well, I'm saying is if you're putting something visually then it needs to have something audible to go with it. >> Yes. >> This is Janice. Terry is correct. >> And that's what's not happening now. >> Right. Terry is correct. There should be
-- for VMS, there should be a separate column and thank you for clarifying that. There should be a separate column for induction loop because if it is available messaging, it doesn't mean -- it just means that it varies but it doesn't mean we need a loop and we need a column port induction loop. >> Janice, the loop system is something we're going to discuss and it's a communication issue but it's not a sign and it's not something that we're talking about at this point in time. I'm not going to put a column on here for an induction loop which is a communication issue but it's not a sign. >> Well, actually it is because for people with hearing loss and it is a sign and we're changing the definition of what a sign means and we're not saying this is the law. This is a reminder list and a little checklist, so there is no harm in having a little checklist for people

-- for adding that sowe don't have oversight issues
-- orwe don't forget it. It's not a big deal to add a column to this. There's no hard and fast rules about what we add and don't add. So I don't see the harm in doing it so we don't forget to do something. It's just a little checklist. >> I agree with Jim. We have already talked about hearing loops being a separate issue and needed to be addressed. It's really not theappropriate placeto put itonthetable. A hearing loop is usedwhenever

you have an audible announcement. That's what it's used for and that's a separate issue than the decals and signs that we're talking about. >> Then, let's put the entire thing
-- then let's call this
-- >> One at a time, please. I thinkwe're going to need to do this a little bit more slowly, a little more
-- Frank was speaking. Let's let him finish and then you will have the floor after that, Janice. >> Great. Thank you. >> I just wanted to clarify, I know we had talked about this a couple of times and I agree with Jim. This doesn't belong on the table. That doesn't mean we're not going to discuss it. We had already said that hearing loopswould be treated as part of the communications examination and as part of the communications groupwewere going to treat that. All we're saying is it doesn't belong under signs and you're misrepresented and it gets a little bit confusing when you start adding that to this table. The hearing loop is used whenever there is an audible message and that's where you have to control it and that's the rule if it's going to be one that says when an audible message is played, there needs to be a hearing loop. You don't have to assign all these other categories to it. Whenever an audiblemessage is played or PA announcement ismade, that's when the hearing loop comes in. It doesn't fall into these categories. So it's just
-- I'm just saying it's a separate issue. I agreewithwhat Jim is saying, that this table is going to define other things and that's just a separate issue and I think itwill be handled
-- itwill be handled and it will be handled in a way that's representative of how it's used. >>Okay. This is Janice. I disagree. It's a column. We're notmakingit law. It is nothing and then the column stays blank if it's not

appropriate. But adding it doesn't and I think you're coming from an industry point of view and while you see this has clear, people with hearing loss don't and lay people don't and I have worked with far too many companies, corporations, government agencies and museums where it is left off so I believe in doing the checks and balance, so let's add the column. And if it's not applicable, we leave it blank and no harm done. But if it is applicable, then we put a little check mark and I don't really understand why you would have a problem with that because if it's not applicable, it's blank but then we have made a conscious decision about it. >> Okay. Thank you. Could I make a suggestion for a possible compromise here? Could we add pretty much exactly what Frank just said that if it's an audible sign
-- if it's an audible message, then there should be a loop, a loop induction system. Could we just add that as another
-- at the bottom of this as another row instead of another column? And then that statement is in there once and for all, that if we're going tohaveanaudiblemessage,wehavegotitinthereasoneoftheadditional options going down the list. Why don't we just put it in as another row right there. >>This is Janice. I don't think itworks aswell because if any of those categories is or audible, then it's not saying which category is. So why not instead ofmaking it a row,make it a column andwe leave it blank. It's not a big deal and if this is important to people with hearing loss, I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with adding a column if it's completely blank. The rail
-type column is completely blank right nowand I'm not sure why there is a problem. There is plenty of room on the

chart, we add another column and then we can move on
-- >>Okay. Why don't you put that onyours anyhow and thenwe can all catch up on that at some point for those who may not have it right in front of them to add in a column or whatever at least if you have got it there then we can all take a look at it at some time in the future
-- >> Terry, Terry, that doesn't work. >> I believe that there was someone else asking for the floor. >> But, Terry, I just want to be clear. That doesn't work because I'm not keeping separate charts and if we're only working on visual, then I'm not even sure why I'm even on the call because then we should call this a visual communication category and not a communication and we need to include all disabilities and not exclude one disability. >> Janice, as this thing stands right now, the hearing loss community has more on
-- if you interpret this table, there's more on here for hearing loss than there is for any other disability. >> Where? I don't see it. I don't see hearing. >> If you would
-- hold on a second. If you look at the first column for visual and tactical, the only two things that are even in there are for nonemergency issues. >> I see tactical and visual in the first column, I see 3. I see 5 in the other column
-- >> Do you know what that means? This is what I'm saying, I think there is a little bit of confusion with all of this. If you look at the first column there, there are -- unless it changed overnight, there are two Xs
-->> 3.

>> Letmefinishplease. Ifyoulookatwhatthosetwoissuesare,they're both nonemergency. We're not even looking at doing tactical and visual for emergency issues right now. That is
-- so the whole concept that one disability is being left out over another is absolutely not the case here and we all know that we're trying to fit in as many disabilities as possible. And one of the things that we're not looking at at all is a combination is the deaf
-blind community. Neither my induction loops or your large signs handle that at all. >> Then let's include a column for them. I'm not excluding people. I'm including >> We have wasted
-- we have
-- >> No, we haven't wasted anything because, Terry, if we add the column

-- >> Janice, let her speak. >> Janice, we have worked this through for months and we have talked it over and talked it over and talked it over. Let's take what we have now and gowith it andwe can include the induction loop. It's in there under 1A. It's no there and at some time in the future when we have finally got a final copy put together for everyone,we can obviously at that time write anythingwewant on it. Let's get this thing done. We are running four months behind schedule at this point and an awful lot of it has to do with the arguments we have on this call instead of getting
-- >> You're screaming and please don't scream in my ear. >> I'm not screaming. >> No. I'm not getting into this argument with you again, Janice. >> I don't care if you're getting into an argument. I'll e-mail the head of the committee because this is ridiculous to have hearing committeeleft out.

>> Operator, mute Janice Schacter. Thank you. This is Rose Marie. Ms. Terry, please continue. >> What I'm saying is we have got to get this finished. We can add in a separate column. If Janice wants to add in one on her table, that's fine. As a reminder we're only putting it in as a reminder. If anyone else feels comfortable
-- feels that they would be better off with it inthere,thengo rightaheadanddothat. ButinthemeanwhileI'msorry, but we absolutely need to move ahead with this. There is so much work that we still have to do. We are at least three to four months behind our original agenda in getting these things done so I would like to see us move ahead. Does anyone else have a problem with that or do you feel that we should take a vote on whether we should just move ahead today? >> This is Lise Hamlin. I understand Janice' position but I actually agree with your suggestion as havingitbe under 1A, sothattome soundslikea reasonablecompromise in making sure it's noted but put it under 1A.

>> Thank you, Lise. Does anyone else have any other comments that they wish to make at this time? Hearing none
-- >> Terry, this is Rose Marie, could I unmute Janice now? >> Yes. Fine. >> Operator, please unmute Janice Schacter. Thank you.>> Jim, would you -- I'm sorry. I'm trying to move the form back into

my position here so I can read it. Directional signs including directional exit signs...as this currently stands, we have it only as a visual. We're not doing tactical. We're not saying that it's not required and we do not have the rail type in. Do we want it to be tackal or visual on any type of rail visual? Does anyone have any comment on that? >> This is Frank again. I was thinking unless there is a good reason that it wouldn't apply to all that typically all of these would apply to all and maybe if there is a reason for a distinction on a particular one, that's when we should note it. >> Frank, could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand. >>We, I'm saying every timewe decide that a sign is necessarily,whether we decide it's visual or VMS or tactile, I think the rail types should be all rail types. So everything is all unless there is a reason why a particular type of rail should be excluded or should have a different heading or designation. >> All rail types unless otherwise noted. Does that sound logical to everyone? Is anybody still here? >> This is Jim. I think the only thing we have gotten into in discussion
-wise that's been where it's specifically required over one rail type over another is the priority seating. They're only requiredin certain types of vehicles. They're not required in all and that's

the only thing I have seen where the rail type is different so far.

>> Okay. So that kind of takes care of that column. Again, going back on the first item, the directional signs including directional exit signs. Again,VMS -- right now, I'm looking at visual. I believe that things like
-- that things like exit signs
-- especially the exit signs
-- I guess that's what bothers me about this particular one is that the exit signs are in this category. I suppose the sign is saying this way to the exit sign. I'm really kind of thinking that that should be tactile in most situations as well. Now, they wouldn't all be able to be tactile because some of them are obviously up over a doorway kind of thing. I'm thinking that something like any directional sign that is within a -- you know, within
-- less than five feet over
-- within 60 inches of the floor. >> Terry, this is Jim. If the exit sign is at the door, over the door, next to it, on it, that's a designation sign and we have decided that is required to be tactile and visual. But if it's just a sign that says the exit is this way with an arrow, that's
-- those times are what we are looking at for the firstcategory.

>> Oh, okay. That's where my mistake was on that then. Okay. Sothenwe're just lookingat it beingvisual. Thenwe're looking at VMS. Again, those need to
-- if it's going to be VMS, it needs to be audible and be able to be
-- it needs to be audible, itwill be audible and visual
-- it will be visual automatically if it's a VMS and we also need to have it audible and loop induction
-- you know, able to be done as a loop induction system. Is my feeling on it. Do I have any other discussion on it?

>> And then we're back to why is there not a column for induction. You know, I don't understand and this is exactly what I was trying to say, add a column. And if it's appropriate, you put an X. And if it's not appropriate, you leave it blank. I'm a little confused. But I will continue to voice my opinion since it will be on the record. >> This is Jim. Let me sort of step back for a minute and come at it from how a regulation would look at it and how I would sort of envision you want to deal with this issue. I would say that
-- the first thing out of the box is any time an audible announcement is made in a vehicle or has the potential to be made in a vehicle, you provide a loop in that car, period. And therefore any audible announcement, whether it's dynamic or static or recorded or the conductor is saying whatever, it gets picked up by the loop. That's the first premise. You start from there. Then you go to the fact that if you provide an audible announcement, thenperhaps certaintypesofthosearealso requiredto be invariablemessage

signs or if it's provided as a variable message sign, it has to have an audible component to it. Any time
-- if you have made the premise that the loop is required under any audible conditions, you have done that. I mean, it doesn't really matter whether
-- you could have a VMS sign that's required for recorded messages only and the dynamic thing that areliketheconductorgettingonandsaying
-- youknow,gettingacertain message to people because it's kind of difficult to do dynamic in a VMS format, that wouldn't get picked up by the VMS, but it would get picked up by the loop because it's an audible announcement. So that's where I would sort of start with the issue. In other words, the loop is sort of hierarchy over everything else as a communication issue, not as a specific signage issue. >>ThisisJanice. I'm reallynotclearwhatyoujustsaidandIapologize but I don't understand it. I think then maybe we should change the category of signage, communication
-- I mean, this is a communication group and we change it specifically from signage. I just want a column for induction loop. If it's appropriate, we put an X. If it's not appropriate, we don't put an X. I'm not clear why adding a column is that complicated. It just shows we have considered it and made a conscious decision. I'm not sure why induction loops are a footnote. I disagree with Lise Hamlin. HLAA has taken different opinions on inductionloopsandIhaveseenfartoomanypeoplewholeaveoffinduction loops and some people understand it. They don't. I mean, the new civil rights museum in Atlanta was just built without
-- >> Janice, I'll give you a column. I'm just do it. >> Thank you.>> But I think we should all understand that putting the column in is

not reducing the importance of the loop. I think the way that Jim has suggested that we do it which is similar to what I had suggested with the row, gives it a higher priority than the column. But having a column in there is fine. But I do want to point out that we are giving it the highest possible priority by doing it thisway. By doing it theway that Jim has suggested with this statement.

>> This is Frank. Just real quickly. I think Jim thought and what he laid out is exactly the way I would treat it and it makes a lot of sense. Whether the column is there or not. I'm just clear that he understands exactly how it has to be done. >> Yes. That's a very good point, Frank. >> This is Janice. Frank with all due respect, LIR has taken a position they will only put induction loops in if mandated by law, so I just
-- you know, I find when comments are coming from LAR not you as a person, but the LAR, they're insincere because the head of MTA,Thomas pend grass told me personally he does not want to put induction loops in rail cars so I have to take a different position and, you know, understand that when you're saying this, you're being told from your -- from the company head this is not what he wants so I think that has to be very clear to everyone on the committee and part of why I have to take a stronger position knowing what Tom's position to me was and what the general counsel for LAR has been tome inwriting and I think if people understandthattheymayunderstandwhymypositionis,Iwanteverythingdocumented.

>> Okay.

Let's move on. You make a very valid point, Janice. On the other hand we also have
-- LAR is one of, I have no idea how many different systems where these
-- whatwe're doing is not only going to affect LAR, but every other transit company in the country, and all of them have varying levels of interest and participation and
-- but all of them have
-- they all need to work on this
-- we all need to work together on this and whether one particular person wants to or not is a power game that we don't need to get into with them right now. We need to show them what they do need to do and let them deal with it. >>Terry, I agreewithyou. Except -- and not to give them anymore power. They are the largest purchaser of rail cars in the country and unfortunately do lead the way for many other
-- thankfully other rail companies and states don't feel that way and I'm hoping that will affect the change but it is giving me pause for concern since they stated they are the largest rail company in the country and have the largeest subway system in the country. It is a little unnerving when they change their position on this. So that's why we have to be a little clearer and I agree with that, 100% with what you just said. >> Thank you. Okay. Do we have anything else on the types of signage in rail 1? Anybody have anything else to add into this?>> This is Frank. Just to be clear saying the way it was in the handout,

right? Right now it's just row 1 only has one X in it? >> Row 1 has one X in visual and we did the discussion about the VMS. I just wrote the word loop in under VMS, the note of what Jim said at the bottom to include later in my notes here. >> This is Frank again. I guess you were just starting the discussion on VMS, whether it's applicable to row 1, I would think it's not applicable. These are stationary
-type signs and it's not of that type whichwould beavariablemessage sign. Youdon'twantthe PAs,you know, making an announcement all day long, exit, exit, exit, exit, so I think in this particular casevisual is the onlyX in this row as it's currently written. >>Yeah,visual is theonlyone. I'm sorry. Ionly put the loop in there because that was where the conversation came up. Not because we're really actually going to -- the point is that at some time in the future if there are -- I think that that is an interesting issue, though, you bring up. If there are at some point VMSs that do give direction, should they only be visual then? And that's kind of what we just were talking with our whole discussion has been about, that if it's a VMS, it should be audible. And VMS, you know, it can very easily become something for
-- that can fit into this category. If you have got VMS signs in the car saying cafe car 2 ahead, you know,or next car sleeping car or this car is not -- the doors are not going

to open at the next station, that kind of thing, that could be done in VMS at some point, could it not? Though it may not be right now on -- I mean, it is a possibility, is it not?

>> Well, I -- you know, this is Frank again. I was just going through what Jim had put together previously with trying to identify the designations of the signs, and, you know, I didn't find one specifically that said directional signs includes exit signs. Is there one in there, Jim
-- was that one of the categories that you had separated out? >> First one up. Directional sign, parentheses include directional exit signs, close parentheses. >> Oh, I'm sorry. You know what, that's a good question. For the most part I believe these are static signs. If they were somehow became VMS signs, I guess it's possible but as soon as they became a VMS sign, they would be. You know, I don't know if
-- I guess the point is that do you have to have this type of sign be a VMS and I don't think you have to. >> No, I don't think you have to have the sign VMS but what if you had

-- I'mtryingto thinkof an example. What ifyou hada sign
-- itdoesn't really qualify as directional. In a way it does. What if you have the machine
-- vendingmachinesforinstanceonthecar,ticketmachineswhere you can buy your ticket on the car and it's saying the VMS could very well say use next machine, out of order, that kind of thing.>> Terry, this is Blair. Just to give you an example, and I wish Ed was

on from jerseyTransit because theywere doing some stuff thatwe started tinkering with, with visual messaging or variable messaging signs on cars, and what we did on each end of the car, on the corridor, there is a sign. And now it's actually a static sign and it just has a fixed message, but at one point it was a changing sign and it would give you information, can information but on a regular interval, it would go to say exit this end, you know, the standard stock message and thatwas just sort of a reinforcement to the strictly static signs that are applied elsewhere in the car. I don't know if we want to get into that kind of detail about what VMS systems are going to do, but it's just bits and bites in a computer, so to have that kind of thing in there at some interval where there's not a conductor's message going up, it can flash up for a number of limited seconds, exit this end or cafe the other way, but it would not replace entirely the static applied physical sign on the car. >>You make an excellent point, Blair. Iwas on a commuter rail recently that had something very similar to that that was basically that type of thing, that told you which end of the car to get off at, at each one of the rail stations. >> This is Blair again. From a visual
-- and you tell me, Terry, I have to ask you this. From a visual impairment standpoint, if you're say in the middle of the car and it's an 85-foot long car and the sign
-- the signs that say exit this way or maybe they're properly sized and they're in the lit environment, that static sign versus occasionally having a lit, an illuminated sign thatflashes,doesthatcreateabettersituationfromavisualstandpointfor someone who has reduced vision?

>> It often does because
-- then that's another whole issue and that is when you get into color contrast and especially one of the worse column contrasts that any ophthalmologist I've ever encountered will tell you is black on red combination and that's the most common VMS combination. >> Well, I think that's largely because for so many years the most available and reliable LEDs were red. >> Exactly. >> That has changed so much and there's so many things that occur now where the technology has caught up with the need that I think you can make it pretty much anything that it needed to be. >> Yeah. You can now. I think you're absolutely right. But that has been
-- and the other issue about is amoving sign, something that's scrolling or flashing is harder for someone who takes longer to read something. It's taking them a little longer to focus on it and then it's gone before they get finished through the third word. That is another issue. Those are some of the real issues with VMS's. >> Okay. This is Blair again. I don't want to linger too long on VMS because we are talking so much about the more static signs. But will we take time during this process to give some definition to the VMS like youjustmentioned. Ifyou havea signthat is
-- thewritten information is say scrolling left to right or it's scrolling up and down, I can see where that can be very hard to read even if you don't have a sight impairment. So if it says five words and then the screen changes and it says five more words versus a scrolling, is that kind of information something wewant to put into our recommendation that it should be that and linger

for a period of time so that it really does the job that it's intended to do? >> Well, I tell you I am going to the American Council for the Blind convention nextweek for about eight days and one of the groups that meet out there and the blind IT people and I am hoping to get together with two nationally recognized ophthalmologists on just this subject and invite one of them
-- or possibly both of them to actually do a presentation for us on just this topic I'm hoping at our August 7th meeting, either August or September. Whichever one works with their calendars. But it is something I think we need to look at signage in general, the size of signage, the contrasting, what works for people who are color blind, what works for people from say visual communities like

-- people within the stag mis
-- several issues and I would love to have someone who's got some clinical background to do a presentation as far as -- and I'm hoping I can line that up next week when I'm in Las Vegas. >> That would be Awesome and I'll hush now so we can get through the rest of the table.

>> Well, this is Frank. I just followed along with what you're saying it blings one thing to mind. One of the problems with the VMS sign it is being able to read the spoken word as quickly as you can hear it and, you know, our systems we have very close station stops and we have ASI signs. For us it's called automated station identification where you identify the next station, the final destination and you try to do that at set points when you're arriving and leaving a station. And after youdo all that, you really don't have anymore space or time to announce

anything else, so when we do the VMSs it's nice to say that everything that is audible has to be visual but you can't read as fast as you can hear. >> What else are you putting on your VMSs?

>> I'm just saying if you want to add more things to the VMS signs often as the locations, the doors, or you want to make candid announcements, it's a difficult thing to do. To repeatedly make a candid announcement, you know, the last two cars don't open the doors or something like that. Dependingupontheannouncementisnoteasytoaddandonceyouhavegotten the rhythm of a station identification sign. I'm just saying we were looking to adding other things to VMS is what you were talking about, you know,doorsopen right,doorsopen left. You know, someofthatwould be good information especially if you have repeatedly only open on one platform or the other. WMATA does it I think on some of their equipment. >> WMATA does it for
-- for instance, in Boston, it's automated announcements and even between let's say Park Street and Downtown Crossingwhich is probablyabout certainly under 30 seconds between those two stations, they can manage to say next stop Downtown Crossing. Doors opening on the left and then when it pulls into the station says Red Line to Braintree which is what it's actually saying on the VMS. Now, my question back on whether
-- to you just to ponder is so what happens to the poor sucker that gets on and wants to get off the train at a specific stop and he doesn't know that those two doors, those two cars are not going to open?>> I mean, that is a good question. I mean, the audio announcements are

made. The difficulty is getting thevisual announcements because that's more of a nonstandard announcement and those are harder to make and nothing's impossible but they're harder to make. So typically you'll always get the audio announcement because they'll be able to make that announcement after the trains are stopped even if the signs are still scrolling. >> So as long as they'remaking an audio announcement, thenwe're at least getting a loop announcement
-- we can have it on the loop. >> The loop is required. Anything that goes over the PA will also be going over the loop. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Terry, this is Jim. Could I make a recommendation?
>> Sure. >> The way I'm looking at the table as far as the VMS is concerned, I'm looking at the table from a standpoint of which one of these categories do you want to require to be in VMS, variable message sign? In addition to that I would take VMS up to a higher level just like we did the loop and say a general charging statement about the VMS signs generally. In other words, if we say let's say standard pre-recorded announcements are made, those have to be in VMS as well and just start from there and then if it's
-- whatever it is, it's provided and then if youwant to specifically say okay these are things you want to require to be in VMS, that's a more specific issue. And the other thing is I thinkwe needto sortof leavethetechnical requirements, inotherwords, what the color of the sign and the intelligibility of the audio to laterdate and get to these scoping things first.

>> Yeah. Okay. I agree with you to the
-- essentially but I do think that if we're going to raise VMS, that way, the other thing we need to do is say -- if VMS is used, then it needs
-- then it needs to be audible and it needs to be accessible. >> Absolutely. >> It needs to be accessible. Andsothatcoversaudibleandforthedeafandhardofhearing. Itcovers everybody. >> I just said the pre-recorded stuff because I'm like Frank. Know that the dynamic stuff that comes over that's not pre-recorded and just comes over is a much harder thing to put up in VMS than a standard pre-recorded thing is. It's doable, but it's expensive. >> Right. Is it VMS? Is it possible to
-- if you're the conductor on the commuter rail, is it possible for you to even do VMS? While you're sitting on the train?

>> I don't know. My gut reaction is it's probably doablewith maybe some voice recognition softwarewhich is probably going to be real expensive. I'm whistling in the wind here. I don't know. >> I am too. You know, do they even do VMS immediately, ad lib VMS if you will?

>> This is Frank again. I mean, from my experience with them, like Jimhad pointed out, trying to get voice recognition systems to accurately

reproducevisuallywhatyou're hearing is adifficultythingtodo. Even the CART text that we have here makes mistakes and somebody's constantly correcting it. So that's a difficult thing to do on the fly. Every time we look into it, it's really a very difficult thing to get accurately done. You need somebody like the CART person here to be sitting there and correcting all the text. >> This is Lise Hamlin. Can I just in here? >> Sure, go ahead. >> Here's the thing...when we put these things together, they stay for avery long time. It's not likewe're going to -- oncewe get these rules

-- we're just advising and the board writes them and then how many years ahead of now are they going to be in effect? So my understanding is we want to write it with the idea that technology changes and we'll progressively be better. So we don't want to write it so strictly so you can't possibly do it but on the other hand we don't want to write it without looking to the future where in fact it will be more possible to do some of this and I worry about things like emergency becauseyou can't even now have
-- you can even now have emergency signage that is dynamic. So the station master or somebody can type it in and put it in and it's realtime. And you don't have to know CART in order to put it in. So that can happen now and perhaps for that situation we should be saying when possible, this should be accounted for. You know, we can write it in such away thatwe are allowing for the fact that voice recognitionwilldefinitelyget better. It'sgoingtoget betterat some point. We've been waiting for a long time. And that there are always work
-arounds, but if we don't put it in, if we don't allow for it, thenwe'll wait another 20 years and play catch
-up again with technology.

That's my concern. >> This is Janice. I agree with Lise and the other thing is voice technology right now is only 92% from my understanding. But when it's thesamevoice,thatis repeatedoverandover,itincreasesdramatically. So I think that
-- if we have the same -- and also my understanding from the MTA is that they're adding announcements from a base control where it's
-- this is my understanding from a recent meeting, that they can from a command center in New York City for buses, when they're having variable messaging, they can change that on the screen as well from a base center and then communicate that to all the buses. So it may be a delay, but also if let's say only one door is opening and we know that ahead of time, then that's called planning and it can be planned ahead of time. But in an emergency, we can also communicate that and I think we need to think about one voice and how that's communicated. Rather than just eliminating the category. >> Well, this is Frank again. I don't think we're eliminating the category and I think Jim had a very good suggestion of how to handle it. Just because something is not required doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't get done. We have station identification signs and had it for 10 signs and there's no regulation requiring that butwe did because it's a custom or amenity. It's good to require what can be done. I think it's wrong to require what presently can't be done and have somebody trying to buy a piece of equipment that they can't buy because the technology doesn't exist yet. You know, just because we say only the ones that are caned have to be repeated doesn't mean that if somebody can do the opposite they will.>> This is Janice. I can tell you that for absolute 100% certain fact

if it's not required for people with disabilities, it will not be done. My every day job is about even when it is required getting people to do it. People with disabilities have zero market force. People will not do it even when it is clear as day. You look at the number of curb cuts that are not there, entrances to stores that should have wheelchair access, the list can go on. So saying oh, of course we'll do it, really nice. Butwhenyoudo have
-- the FCC hadtomandate captioning standards because when there are no standards for captioning, whatever words were slapped against the screen counted as captions and there was no way a person with a disability of enforcing captioning standards whatsoever, I know because I did it and Iwrote standards for television commercial,, so that's not accurate. That would be a lovely sentiment if it was accuratebutit'snotandIactuallyhavemadeafull
-timejobofliterally complaining about access. So I know it's not true. >> You haven't been at the railroad 10 years ago telling us to put them on, so it is possible that people are going to do things. >> Six years ago. >> All I'm saying is you shouldn't require things that are not currently possible because you're creating problems. You can't buy a car that doesn't have it. You have a problem. You know, I know maybe you don't care about that, but that's reality. When somebody goes to buy a car and they're asking for a system that can't be made, you wind up having discussions day after day and it just doesn't exist. You can't buy a car. There's cost overruns and all that costs money to every single person using the equipment. So it's not so simpleas build it, they will come. You know, write the rule of what you can

do, and you know what you can do, those are minimum requirements and if technology changes in the future and you want to increase it, then you do it then. But don't do it before it exists because you're going to create a problem with people buying equipment and the ultimate person who's going to suffer is the person who's trying to use new equipment whentheycan'tbuyitbecauseitdoesn'tmeetthe regulations. Butdon't get carried away thinking that you have to write for the next 20 years. That's a mistake. You're going to wind up creating rules that can't be met by anybody and nobody's going to be buying new equipment for the next 10 years and everybody will suffer. You just got to keep that in mind. Whatyou need iswhatwe should be putting in the regulations, theminimum requirements. Not what you would like to have.

>> Frank,justfor clarity
-sake, IworkedwiththreeNewYorkCitytransit commissioners startingwith Peter and the head of MTA, so one I have done it for say 10 years. Secondly, don't require legislation for what can't be done, but you write legislation looking forward and so it evolves, big difference. And third, you never write for minimum standards. You write to make it work. And, yes, it can be done, and no one is trying to waste money. But I will tell you this, having worked with the New York City Transit on adding induction loops for buses for hearing loops, having done a pilot and having it be part of the capital campaign fund with Howard Roberts and then having Thomas Pendgrass eliminate it even though I have the pilot program, that again is disgenuine and there are incredible penal on the Access Board who know how to write legislation. >> Guys, I'm...I realize that not everyone on your committee is goingto agree with every detail, but for the sake of today's meeting, I don't

want us to belabor it longer. >> Thank you, Chris. Getting back to our chart here...on the second row, I thinkwe are pretty much in agreement -- I -- I'm sorry. I did have a question for Jim on the second one, which is the E, the ISA should be required at required wheelchair spaces and be located blank. Is that supposed to be
-- and be located next to some other chair or is that supposed to be at three feet? Not sure what your blank meant. >>The blank is, the committee hasn'tmade that decision. They said they want the ISA at the wheelchair spaces but they haven't really said where they want it, on the ground, on the wall, on the ceiling, on a sign, on a pedestal next -- or how high, how big, how low, whatever. I just left it blank because you need to sort of tell people where to put it more or less. That's what the blanks are. The blanks are the committee hasn'tmade a decision as far as the location for that particular issue. >> Okay. Does anyone have any particular comments on this particular issue?

>>Yeah, this is Frank again. Just to follow upwithwhat Jimwas saying. Any time we have a tactile or visual sign requirement, we said we wanted to put a location for it so it can be found and everyone that's there has that same comment so it makes a lot of sense.>> It does.

Anybody else have anything else they want to say about it? I do. And that is that I think the ISA needs
-- does anyone feel like I do, does anyone feels that the ISA needs to be in a location beyond other than just where a wheelchair goes?
For instance, on many of the public transit systems, they have been by by the side seats on a bus or the first set of seats beyond thewheelchair area or someplace. Do we or do we not say there needs to be other seats for people with disabilities who are not in a wheelchair?

>> Those are the priority seat that is we're talking about
-- those are nonemergency information signs.

>> Priority seating is
-- doesn't go the same as wheelchair seating?

>> It's the way that the DOT reg is currently written. They're required to be notified that these seats are available for peoplewith disability, et cetera, et cetera. But they don't tellyou how to do it and they don't currently require the ISA. >> And maybe that's why WMATA now is not putting it on it except where wheelchairs would go and what I've noticed is that far fewer people are getting up off of those seats
-- are adhering to priority seating now because of that. Can we put something in about that or does that have to go to DOT?>> As far as making people get up, that's more of an operational issue.

>> It is more of an operational issue. I'm not saying making them get up, but at least having the sign on the vehicle that this is priority seating? >> That's currently required.

>> Is there also anything we can do about not putting the garbage pail being there and the luggage. I've never been on a trail without the garbage pail be there in the priority seating.

>> What Jim is about to say, that's an operational issue and sounds like the luggage is in theway, and that's an operational issue as is the trash can issue too. So is that because... >>Yeah, this is Jim. This is from the commuter rail requirements currently about priority seating signs. Each car shall contain signs which indicate that certain seats are priority seats for persons with disabilities and that other passengers should make such seats available to thosewhowish to use them. And then it goes into characters on the sign shall require, blah, blah, blah and this is the only place where there's technical for signage in the guidelines. >> But it does say there should be signs for priority seating?

>> Right. Andthatother passengers should basicallymove buttheydon't tell you the specific language on how to put it and currently they don't require the international symbol. >> Right. But I'm reading what we have on this chart right now, we'resaying that the only place that they need to put the signs is where the

wheelchair seating is? Am I wrong -- >>That'sforthedesignationofthespace. Thisismoreofinformational sign about how you use the seat. Not necessarily the designation of the seat. I guess you could put them both in the same category if you want. >> It is for the designation of the seat though. It's these seats here are the priority seats. I mean,what makes that
-- I'm just trying to think
-- no, I'm just trying to see where the flaw is in my thinking. What makes that empty space for the wheelchair different than
-- other than the seat next to it for people with disabilities other than a wheelchair user? They're both designated spaces, aren't they?
>> It's just the way the regulation is currently written. It's just saying these seats are required to be usable and people should move. >> Yeah. I'm just saying it looks like we're leaving that out in this. >> I think the table has it. If you look at E and F and maybe it prints on your second page as it did in mine. The ISA shall provided under E under the notes that he has under the chart in requiredwheelchair spaces and the ISA should be provided for priority seating. So both of them are required to have the ISA sign. >> I'm sorry. You're right. That's exactlywhat I'mmissing. Imissed the difference in
-- that's exactly what it is. I missed that. I apologize. >> I'll basically take it out of F and put it into E and just make it part of
-->> I missed it in F.

>> No, it was done slightly differently. I'll just change it and make them both a designation rather than an informational. >> Yeah, I mean, they're both listed. It's just that one is E and one is F. It is confusing because you would think the ISA signs would apply to the priority seating and the wheelchair seating and Jim pointed out that wasn't the case even though we have and many other people have put those in both locations. It wasn't required. But these will make it clear and that makes sense. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else have any other discussion on this topic? Nonemergency informational signs... we're saying
-- we have B and F. >> We have moved F so you have discount that. >> So it would be meet the requirements for
-- that's nonemergency information. Any other comment on that one?

>> This is Frank. I had a comment on that and I was looking through the list again that Jim put together and advertising signs comes to mind. We typically have a good amountof advertising signs on the cars and there are all kinds of fonts and it's all artistic for the most part. It's not just informational and if you require them as advertising signs to meet the visual requirements, that's really going to limit how the advertisers makes signs. I don't know if it's a real necessity but that advertising signs be included with the visual requirements. >> Well, footnote B makes the caveat of where practical for all thosesigns in that designation.

>> Jim, I'm not sure legally we can cover... >> Advertisement? >> Yeah. I'm pretty sure we can't, but let's get
-- >> Will people have heartburn just about exempting advertising?

>>This is Blair. You know,a lotofgraphicdesigners intheadvertising world miss
-- well, they design for their own age, so they use a lot of small and trendy things that they don't realize a large number of people without
-- that can be categorized as having visual impairments and they can read them. So if they're foolish enough to advertise and not making sure people can read it, then shame on them. >> This is Janice. I think with advertising most of it is unintentional having worked with the C&A on captioning, they were most uncompletely unaware that most commercials were not captioned. As you said young people,they'renotawareofit. Ithinkit'salsoit'snotonyour radar, you're not aware of it. I don't see how you can require the advertising but I think what the N&A did do is they came up with voluntary recommendations and I think some of the organizations for visual impairments might want to work with the N&A and developing recommendations for what works and what doesn't to work with the ANA so they candisseminatethat informationto advertisers because ifthey sold forexamplethatwill benefitthem notonlyonadvertising butthe package good for older adults. Most of the people in the meeting attended
-- it's to association of national advertisers and what they are is avoluntarygroupofalltheadvertisingagencies, corporationslikeTarget

belongs to them, Verizon and so when we worked with them to develop captioning standards completely unrelated to this they had no clue for examplethatmanycommercialswere havingcaptioning,manydidnot. They also did not know if they failed to put captioning on their commercial and the previous commercial did not put something called stop and had captions, those captions bled on to the previous commercial. I found most of it was an educational thing working with the association of national advertisers and developing standards and explaining to them for example the red
-black color contrast. I don't think they have a clue. I don't think they understand the fonts. You can't mandate that because it may come under first amendment issues. But I can give them legal advicebutIdothink startingwiththeANAwouldbeagood startingpoint. >>TheANA is avery good starting point and the BLN, the business leaders network, but making some huge strides forward in various areas in the last couple of years, both of them I think are greatly
-- are very good resources. There is another group that did
-- and I can't remember the name of it but I know someonewhowas involvedwith it. There is another group that's done a lot of work on coming up with the things like just exactly how much spendable resources people with disabilities have and it actually blows them away as soon as they find out. Especially marketers. So I think you make an excellent point there, Janice. Thank you.

>> And I'm happy to help anybody who wants to work offline on that, but I think we may run into first amendment issues but that's something theAccess Board can determine.

>> Okay. Thanks. Nonemergency information signs...we have it being just visual and B and F and I still keep forgetting B and F and have to go back and look, size requirement. That's something I should remember. >> Where practicable. >> Yes, where practicable. Does anyone have anything else
-- again, this is another one -- I think

-- this iswhere I think, Frank, youwere talking about having additional information that's not emergency, that may be audible that this is where I think we get into the possibility of the VMSs again or does anyone else agree with me or am I off in left field here with this?

>> I think you bring up a good point and the way to read this thing and to understand what each one of these categories mean is to go through the list that Jim put together. I mean, I find it very helpful because you forget where some of these signs go, so the question
-- I have a question, is this list of categorization going to be provided as part of the rule because there could be misinterpretations as to which sign goes into which category? Was that your intent, Jim?

>> I'm not real sure how you guys are going to recommend packaging it. Again, the current standard for building sort of breaks it down into two, maybe three categories that is sort of all incompassing but, you know, you're doing different things here with specific caveats so I'm goingto step back and wait, see what you guys finish up with.

>> Yeah, because I'm thinking without the explanation of what the
-- you know, which signs apply to what category makes it very confusing. And what you did here is a real good thing is some examples and going through some of those examples. I knowwe spent some time doing it. But I think some of this stuff needs to be flushed out again. >> Yes, I think that once -- I'm seeing this as a working document. Not as a final document, you know, at this point. >> This is Jim. I think I would look at it from the standpoint
-- I'd look at the columns and when you finish figuring out which signs have to do what, I'd take the tactile and visual and say these sign haves to comply with tactile and visuals with these caveats and then these signs have to comply with only the visual with these caveats and then these signs are required to be VMS and also be audible, you know, et cetera and do it that sort of way. >> Right. And I think that
-- and from my understanding I think Frank is saying but what we're using as rows, what we're using as categorys on each row here, some of those are definitely going to need some further definition, are going to need further definition. >> Sure, and we can do that. >> Other than
-- yeah. We all know what we're talking about, but
-- at least we like to pretend we do, but I'm not sure if other people would at this point. All right. Nonemergency
-- where am I? Yeah, nonemergency information and that one, again, you know, if we're talkingVMS,we needto lookatthe ideaof beingaccessibleVMS. Hearingnothing else, let me go on. Nonemergency operational signs...this is

visual/tactile
-- the first one was D, the second one was C
-- >> This is Jim again. The way I put this together, for this category is the general overarching for all the signs in the category, you meet the visual requirements first and you meet the size requirements where practicable but then we had a discussion about specifically for instructions which would be operational for door latches and locks, and we sort of had this
-- that's where D comes in. It's a very specific sort of subset that sort of says, okay, for these signs, we're going to require those to be tactile and visual because we think that's important and again we haven't specified where the actual sign is to be located. One assumes at the latch above to the right below. Something like that. Probably above so it's in the range that somebody can read it standing, but other than that, that's where that sort of extra X came in, it was a more very specific requirement for doors, latches, and locks. >> My question on that is should those door
-- is there a situation and can anyone think of a situation where those instructions for doors, latches, and locks would be something that you would want and maybe I do know the answer to this as I'm saying it
-- wait, you would want passengers to know how to do this if it's nonemergency. I suppose the latch for the restroom door is
-- I think that does have like a little push to the left or something like that kind of sign. I was just trying to think wouldn't most of this fall under
-- most of these signs would fall under emergency information, would they not?

>> Well, I think what we were looking at were just the instructions to open the door to the toilet room and that was sort of from themanufacturers and the train folks basically said that sometimes the

mechanisms was kind of complex and it needed to have instructions come with it >> Right. I'm thinking thoughwhat about the emergency entrance

-- theemergencyexitwindow. Whataboutanemergencyexitwayofopening a door in case of an accident. >>Thatwould be done in the emergency operational signswhichwe haven't discussed yet. >> And most of these would be
-- yeah, okay, all right. Okay. Because I thinkwe need to just emphasize that this is a nonemergency operational signs which you have done. And then emergency information signs is the next category. >> Before we go on, Terry, can I ask the group about the door signs, do you have any preference about where it should be located? >> Which door sign you're talking about? You're talking about the toilet door sign or
-- >> Any time you provide a sign that gives instruction about how to use a door latch or lock, and it's probably going to be the toilet room sign or the sleeper car or the toilet room in the sleeper car
-- >>Or the thing on theAmtrakwhere its says push, for instance,youwould be including that, would you not?
>> Yes. >> I would think
-- I think next to or below and that's going to depend on the space that you have. So I don't know if you want to lock it down to one particular area, but I think either adjacent to or below the lock would make sense.>>This is Blair. For tactile, is there a height above the floor so it's

readable?
>> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. >> So maybe that becomes the driver if it's
-- if that height is above the latch or below the latch, as long as the sign is, you know, at or above the height. I would think ideally to the left or just above the latch. But if the latch is really high, maybe it needs to be under it. I guess that's sort of subjective. >> Yeah, I think we need to put in a range and I believe there is a range. >> The building requirement for these types of
-- for tactile signs is 48 to 60 inches. That's the range. >> It was 40 or 48. I knew it was one -- and then that to me seems like it would be the logical thing. Again, use the 48 to 60 inch. You do not want it
-- if you have got the latch down at 36 inches, you don't want to have a tactile sign below that because that's just making it
-- signage down that low is very difficult for people to use either with low vision or use tactilely. >>Well,thisisBlairagain,Terry. Tothatpoint,theoperationalpart, functional part has to be at 48 or below to be reached, so looks like it's going to generally be next to or above the latch. >> Yeah, as long as it's 48 or below, then next to or above would be the ideal. I suppose if it's something that we're talking that's only
-- I don't know if that would fit. If it's something that's only visual that we had like a one-foot sign over a door
-- but that wouldn't really qualify in this category. So I think we should go with
-- my feelingis that we should go with to the left
-- I'm sorry. Beside or above in

the 48 to 60 inch range. >>Terry, you know, the unintended consequence of this discussion is that we're going to start looking forvery functioning latches that don't need signs to tell you how to use them.

( LAUGHTER ) >> That's ta good thing. >> Yeah. That's a good thing. We make it obvious and we save the money of the sign and the confusion
-- >> There you go. >> So it's a win
-win all the way around and it would all be because we were told to put a sign there if it was needed.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Do we have any further discussion? Emergency operational signs. No,we actually don't have anyXs on this, do we? >> No, we have two votes from the committee. One to put it in visual and one to put it in not required. >> And, Jim, could you just give us a quick refresher on what emergency operational signs are. >> Informational signs...oh, fire extinguisher, fire cabinet located below or
-- >> These are the operational? No, these are the informational. >> Informational.The location of a specific thing about how to -- where something is to

go -- emergency release is located in the panel next to the door -- I don't know, something like that. >> As opposed to operational?

>> Right. Operationalwould be the sign
-- the little sticker that Frank was talking about thatyou put at thewindowwhich is the emergency egress window that says, you know, pull off the two red things, push it out and climbyour rearendoutasquicklyasyou properly can,this sortofthing.

( LAUGHTER ) >> My feeling is anything that's an emergency situation should be available in as many formats as possible, be it visual, be it tactile, be it audio loop, I mean, induction loop, audible
-- somebody narrow me down and let's get other people's feelings on both of these. >> This is Janice. I agree. It's really frightening I think if you're in a situation and you were dependent upon other people and I think we need to put in as many formats as possible so that, you know, people
-- we can't count on other people to tell
-- especially if you're a person with a disability. I think that's what prevents you from traveling, is being scared and plus you're not going to have the information in a critical situation. I think all of this is irrelevant in a day
-to-day setting because you can always get it. But it's really scary if you're inaheightenedsituationlikea9/11situation oratraincashoranything

-- and you may not have the person next to you available.>> And there are several situations where in which you actually as a

disabled personmaywell bethe personwho can handlethe situation better thanmost anyone elseon thevehicle. You know, if I don't know the trail getsderailedinatunnel,ablindpersonisgoingtobeabletogetthrough that tunnel a lot faster than somebody trying to grope their way through the dark who's not used to being in the dark. >> Absolutely. >> I remember one time years ago delta airlines did specific training with blind people on operating the emergency evacuation and such for just that reason becausea blind person ismuchmore usedto handling something in what sighted people would see as an adverse situation. On the other hand, most fire safety training is
-- and it's an issue that the disabled community is starting to finally take a serious look at. Most training now tells to get everybody out first and get the disabled people last. >> Really? >> Yes. There's an awful lot in the training
-- I've been doing some work with some people from Norway on that. That because what it really boils down to is a matter of numbers and that doesn't make sense when you have got people who, you know, whose life do you want to put a price on? It's just a
-- it's a very interesting situation and it has all kinds of ram my cases. Think
-- ramifications. I think we'll see more about it in the next few years. >> Terry, this is Jim. Could I ask a quick question?In the blind community, is there still a big gull between the people who

read by the tactile lettersversus thosewho read primarilywith braille?

>> I know almost no one that uses tactile lettering. I know some people

-- I use it a little bit but since I know braille and use the braille usually
-- raised letters are just harder to read because oftentimes the raised letters are maybe very large because it's
-- they're using the same letters for the large print. They're just making large raised letters and thenyou have got to trace all theway around it for instance. I just do not know many people who use raised lettering myself. I can probably get us some better statistics on it but that's been my experience. >> That would probably be a good idea because I'm thinking in terms of where you have got a sign that you're going to require to be tactile. It may be that because you have spatial constraints and you can't do it because I ice so large, you might be able to do it with just the braille alone and not inlewd the tactile letters. I don't want to
-- I think there is a large number of people that still read tactile letters only

-- >> I'm not sure if there is a higher population. It's a lower population of blind people who read braille. That's not a very high population anymore. Becausewe have made so many mistakeswith it back in the 1970s and '80s when we were teaching generations not to
-- well, we stopped teaching generations to learn braille. We didn't teach it anymore because we had cassettes. Everybody could learn by listening so it created a generation of truly illiterate people. >> To recognize that vision loss is a natural occurring thing and it'squite different for someone who is blind at birth or is -- or loses their

vision as a child to learn to read braille versus someone who is 60 and begins to lose their sight. >> That's true. Blind demographics are an interesting issue because so many blind people
-- I'm not sure what the median age is now. I know at one point it was around 70. I'm it will not sure what it is now. But the majority of people who are blind who would
-- I think I'm trying to look at the demographics of the oneswhowould be traveling independently on rail vehicles. You know, that's I think where we need to, you know, we need to look at what's that demographic and that's where you're going the find peoplewho read braille,who don't read braille. Who have onset blindness. >> Okay. I was just looking to parse the requirements -- >> Yeah, it isn't a nice simple everybody who's blind kind of thing unfortunately. >> I kind of figured but I thought I'd ask. >> Terry, this is Blair. Just from what happens in an emergency situation,atAmtrak,forexample,we have usually likeaminimumofthree exit options and I'm thinking about emergency windows and things like that. So our first option is we want people to go to the next car. Obviously when we start talking about accessibility in vehicles, that is an issue because the passage way on older cars. The second way is to go to
-- the last option we want people to attempt is to go through the windows and that would imply that you have an accident that's pretty severe so that the ends of the cars are damaged or in such a situation that the last refuge istogooutofthewindow. Butinallthosecaseswhenyou'releaving the vehicle, the first instruction is to look outside and make

sure that you're not leaving what you think is a bad condition only to be in a worse condition, maybe there's electrical wires outside the window, outside car. So when we think about the size of the signs that we're going to have to put on spaces, we have to think about that we're not obscuring the vision looking at as well. But to be very practical about what the evacuation processes are, and obviously we're thinking right now about what we have to look at, but in the future when passage ways between cars are the right width and those kinds of things, leaving the cars through the windows becomes again the last option. So I just try to keep everything in context as far as how we give the instructions and what we want folks to do. >> Yeah, I think you make a good point. Although I do think that
-- and that's especially true for someone who's totally blind. However, someone who is legally blind or has low vision, would be able to -- you know, may well be able to look out and see. As far as the size of the instructions in that I think we always need to keep instructions to a minimum for anyone to read and I'm thinking onAmtrak, you have got great space for those kinds of signs in that you have got the big white space betweeneachwindowthat,youknow,maybeifitsuntexactlyonthewindow. It could be beside the window and you have got a lot of space there for them for example as an example. >> It depends on the configuration of the vehicle and sometimes the space between those windows is covered up by the curtains if you're on a train that has curtains and again, it's always based on my comments and what's alreadythere inthevehicle,themostobvious space usually isthewindow itself except where we have
-- if you're designing something new, youcan design the space a bit better to house the sign and then it's much

easier. But going back on old stuff can be a problem. >> Even the new stuff, Blair, I mean, our equipment, our customers typically like to have big windows and, you know, one of the pictures that I sent -- actually on two of the pictures that I sent out previously when I showed you the emergency exit sign dilemma, it's mostly window on the car. It's window, luggage racks and then the heater. So on a side wall there's really not a lot of space and the only space you have is to put a window so what you end up getting is a big window in that particular space. >> Right. And we do have requirements from the FAA about what the emergencywindow size is. It's a bigger dimension than some of our older cars already. >> I'm just saying that when you look at the side walls on some commuter

-- maybe more commuter than the city. The CELA has big windows too. You'll see the windows take up the majority of the side wall except the luggage rack. There's not as much space as there was in the old cars

-- I think it's a good thing. Big windows brighten up the car and make the car look bigger. >> This is Jim. Would it be possible to put the sign on the seat back?

>> We typically get graffiti problems and stuff like that. But the sign that Ithinkthatwe'retalkingabout right now isa nonoperational, non-- emergency informational signs, right, that's what we're on. And one of the signs that I have here is a good example I think because it's one of the ones that I sent you a picture of. It's the passing between cars is pro -- prohibited while train is in motion. That's good advice andyou can't really tell by the picture but on that sign it fits between

the door window and the wall adjacent to it. So there is a little space over there. And with the lettering looks like it's about quarter to 3/8 high and there is braille and there is a Pictogram. The point that you were making before if you're visually impaired, it would be nice if they typically did
-- could read braille because you can make the sign reasonably sized with small lettering and braille, but trying to make the sign with 5/8 raised lettering and braille, you really wouldn't have any space for its. >> Frank, I don't have that in front of me. Do you have the dimensions of that sign there by any chance? >> Yeah, actual I I -- actually I do. The sign is about 4 and a quarter and 5 inches. There's two signs on the door. They're both 4 and a quarter inches wide. >> That can be done in braille and large print and have
-- I think that's what you're saying. It does anyway. >> No, the one I'm talking about the lettering size is only 3/8. It has braille below it, but the lettering size was 5/8 of an inch, it couldn't fit in that 4-inch dimension unless it became a really vertically tall sign, then you wouldn't have space probably for the other one. >> I think I sent it to you. Maybe we'll attach it to the agenda one day. >> Yeah, and at some point, I will do a -- truthly, I don't have it right here in front of me. I'll do it up in braille and large print at some point and just send a screen shot or something to that effect. >> Yeah, maybe the next meeting maybe you can attach
-- Jim, I don't know if you can do that. If you can attach what I sent out and include anyadditional ones that Terry put for the next meeting I think would be

helpful. >> I'll see if I can find it, Frank. >> I'll send it again. >> Okay. Doesn't matter. Because I'm going to have do the Alt tags for them anyway. >> I guess the point I was getting to, Jim, you were pointing out if the typical visually impaired person was reading braille pretty well
-- >> Which we don't know. >>Then youwouldn't be so focused on having the large lettering and this is a good example of where you can have braille without the large lettering. Terry, what is the consensus, you really need to have both

-- >> Truthfully the large lettering will get far more people
-- far more people use the large lettering than the braille. >> Okay. >> I'm not saying we should do away with the braille, but it's a much larger low
-vision population than blind population. >> And most of the low
-vision population don't know braille, right? >> Exactly. >> All right. Well, in this particular case I would like to, you know, add the B code if we're going to include anything because I think space practicality is a concern on these particular signs and then this is just

-- you know, the one I sent out is one example. But there are other ones that, you know, could have similar issues with them, that you're onlylimited in space, and, you know, we tend to forget that you don't have

that much space in a rail car once you get past the windows and doors and other spaces, so practicalty should come into play and maybe this one could be made bigger. I think it would come out looking a little strange, but I'm sure there's cases where it might not work that well and having that note there would leave you a way out. >> Terry, this is Blair. I think to Frank's point and we're looking at these things line by line. And if we took that sign as an example and made it as large as we think it needs to be and applied it to the same door or adjacent to the same door with all the other soons, FRA 223 type 2, all that fun stuff has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It's going to be
-- its could be strange. Could be crowded and could affect the function of everything, so I think somewhere along the line it would be a healthy exercise for us to take what we have done, what we're, you know, the straw man we have created and apply it in the real world with images and things like that and see how it looks so that at the end of the day we come up with the most practical recommendations. >> Would anyone consider
-- I should shoot myself for suggesting this, but I will anyway. What would you think of the idea
-- would people benefit from the idea, could we do
-- our next meeting
-- our next face
-to-face is in September, is it not? I don't have my calendar in front of me. Is September or October our next meeting? >> September. >> September. I thought so. Whatwould you think of the idea ifwe took some of these signs that Frank has sent us and if I took some of the signsthat Frank has sent us and that Blair has sent us and created braille

and large
-print mark
-ups of them, could we then, Blair, perhaps do a meeting like say at Union Station when everyone's here in D.C. and just tape them up on awall and see just how much spacewe are actually talking about using? Would that be something of help to people?

>>Terry, this is Blair. Iwas just trying to think through howwe might do that. Do we need to actually use a vehicle or if we printed out, you know, the doorways and things like that and hung them on the wall, would that be, you know, get us close enough to an idea. I'm just trying to think about the logistics of getting say everyone into a vehicle to look at things could be a little bit tricky. >> Yeah, I was thinking
-- you know what I did, Blair. You saw the ones I did too. So I did one that was the normal size and I did one that was what I thought to be ADA compliant as far as visual and tactile goes. I'm saying if you can blow up the signs, I can take a picture and put it on a car and take a zoom-in shot and a wide
-in shot and everybody can see what it looks like from afar and up close. Basically I'm saying we can do what I did in a couple of locations with pictures. The drawings that I have for these particular signs, they're too scaled. They're actually car drawings and you can blow them up, I can print them out and put them in those locations and everybody can look at them. >> And so
-- but the braille on them is to scale? >> On the drawings that I -- I'll send you the drawings. They're Auto cad drawings. I mean, I can try to blow them up again like I did with the other sign if you want.>>No,I havethoseonesthatyou sentme. Ijustdon't havethatcomputer

in front of me right now. My lap top ran out of power and it's sitting dead at the moment. So I know I do have them I'll take a look at them. And see if we can -- I was trying to figure out if there was a way that perhaps we could give people examples of just what we are talking about for signs
-- you know, for the size of how much space braille is actually going to take on something, how much space would the large print take with the braille on a sign, on some of the signs that we're referring to and that's what I was saying, I was thinking of some of the ones that you sent and especially that very large file that Blair had sent that time and I was just thinking I would be willing to, you know, print some out and cut them to the size that they're supposed to be and people would get more of a hands
-on -- some people are not conceptual
-- >> You know, I could do that too if you want. I mean, if I can blow them up, I can print them out real size for you and I can bring them down. It's just, you know, getting everybody in the car and the logistics associated with that. >> We can do them on the doorways in the Access Board meeting room or something
-- >> Like I said I would be willing to blow up a couple of more and send them to you to see if they're blown up the right way because the guy I have doing them is not an expert in braille. But,yeah, I can do a couple more signs if you want other than the ones that I showed you. >> That would be great. Why don't we all
-- then everyone knows what we're looking at. Everyone knowswhatwe're talking about. I justwant to be sure that everyone's visualizing it well. >> Frank,this is Blair. Iwouldoffer upwe havegotaverylarge printerhere if
-- just so that we keep everything in the right context of size

of doors and spaces because we'll be inside of a room. I could
-- if you have cross sections of your car, I can print them out full scale. They'll be in multiple, you know, maybe three or four sheets to be the width of a car, but if you want to do that, I could
-- I'll volunteer to print those out and we can bring them down and tape them to the wall so that it's, you know, puts everything in a better context. >> Yeah, I think we could do that. >> Okay. >> That's great. >> I'm just saying those are the dimensions of the room and you can fit a train in our conference room, that's what it would be. >> I'm sorry. I can't hear you. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Side conversation. >> We're trying to talk among ours of how to make it work inside the conference room. >> I thought I heard Jim Pecht say between now and then he'll be a mark
-up of the car. >> I heard that too. >> I definitely heard that. >> I thought I heard him say something about a 3D printer.

( LAUGHTER ) >> Blair, you'll have to give me the number for rail plan.

( LAUGHTER ) >> And we by the way want an induction loop check as well.( LAUGHTER )

>> Actually, can we get the mock
-ups from rail plan just brought down here
-- >> They're now manufacturering in that space unfortunately. >> Oh, crap. >> They don't move very well anyway. They're a little too fragile. >> Oh, and my card board ones were going to be so much more sturdy. >> Well, that's because I have faith in you, Jim. >> Well, folks, we have got about seven more minutes here, so where are we?

>> We're on emergency information and emergency operation, kind of the two of them together. Shouldwe say thatwewill kind of dealwith those after we -- do we agree that
-- do we agree that those should whenever practicable, whenever possible be both visual and tactile and of course VMS, the same topics for VMS and loop? Yes? No?

>> I think VMS is not applicable, but I think visual and tactile is going to be difficult and I think, you know, once we look at the size of some of these signs, we'll see what that means. The other part about
-- you know, the other part that I'm always nervous about or conscious about is any time we identify a tactile sign it has to be in a located or inspected area, so we have got to identify a location for it. You know, some of these signs that we have on our doors, not everybody has on theirdoors, so it's hard to say that, you know, this particular sign has to

be in this particular location. You know, when you see -- well, when we do the presentation you'll see that the space is really pretty limited. So either we'll be doing noncompliant signs or we won't be putting any signs up and I'm not sure which is worse, but, typically we put up a sign like the ones that are passing in between cars to try to avoid safety issues and people not realizing that you shouldn't go out the end door of the car. There is a lot of hazards on the outside and the more you tell people who can't seewelltogooutside,themoreyou'reencouragingthemtodothatalmost. You know, like I think
-- I forgot who was saying
-- Blair was saying it before. You know, if you're going to go out of an emergency exit, you want to make sure that the hazard outside is no worse than the hazard inside and the only way you can really do that is to see clearly or have somebody with you. If you're visually impaired and you have got a sign that says exit here, well, maybe that's not the best place to exit. You know, the end doors and the cars may be connected to another car and may not be, and the last thing you want to do is exit a door that you're expecting to go into another car and it's not there. So, you know, that's the concern, you know, whenever you're in an emergency sitlike that, you know, you want to go out, like Blair said, ideally you would like to go car to car that's the first priority if you can get them in that direction. So the emergency exits are always changing. It's not like in a building where the emergency exit is the emergency stairs and it's always that. The emergency exit on a car is going to vary depending on the situation and the last thing you want the person to do is go out the wrong exit. So providing that informationin that format is a little bit concerning to me.

And maybe we need to think about it some more, but it seems to create a problemwhen you have a moving emergency exit to identify the emergency exit to somebody who may not be able to see the hazards that exist once they go through that door. >> Frank, I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit because I think there are several
-- it's always going to be situational. It's always going to be case by case and it's always going to be hopefully atthedirectionof somebodywho in authority likea conductoror security or something like that. But that may not be the case so it's a situation where it's dark and you're in a tunnel. So does that mean nobody goes out -- again, if I'm blind and I open a window and I hear snap, crackle pop, and I smell smoke, I'm probably not going out that way, even though I can't see. So it's
-- the question is how much information do you want to give everybody? And I think the answer is if you're going to give it to everybody else, you'regoingtogiveittopeoplewithdisabilitiesasmuchasyoupossibly physically can do. >> Jim, this is Blair. I'll give you a scenario and it's probably pretty typical for Long Island as well. The last door on a train
-- on our trains is locked because there's no place to go if you go out of that door except on to the track and we discourage that. So the doors between cars are always unlocked. But we did get in a situation in an incident out in Nevada where there was fire in a car because a truck drove into the side of a car and an employee went toward the exit that he knew was at the other end of thecar, got to the end of the car and it was the door to the baggage car

whichwas locked because by federal lawwe have to carry firearms in that car. So now instead of spending time getting out of the window, they spent time going down to this door and had to turn around and go back in toward the fire to find a side door exit to get out of and as a result we had to put in signage that said don't go this way because it may be locked. It may not be locked. But it may be locked. It depends on how the train is made up. So as sure as we figure out one thing, there will be a scenario that just casts all that to the wind. >> And hence, case by case. >> Yeah, and it's very frustrating because like Frank said, a building is a very nondynamic situation. Once you take the elevators and escalators out of the situation, it's a pretty stable place. Doors are alwayswhere they're supposed to be. On a train, it is minute by minute, second by second apt to change. The vehicles don't change, but the situation that they're in is ever changing and that makes it all the more frustrating to try to get things right and sometimes it's
-- you just hope for percentages that you get it right most of the time. >> Okay. This is Jim. We have about run out of time. I'm going to go out on a limb and say for both of these two emergency signs I'm going to tentatively put them in tactile and visualwith a caveat to the extent practicable and locateedwith a blank becausewe don't knowwhere they're located yet. Is that okay with everybody or
-- >> I think that's good and I think we should take it down to the next one as well. >> The caution signs?>> The caution and safety signs as well.

>> Okay. Any objections? Hearing none, so ordered. All right. Terry, do you want to give anybody any home work assignments for next time? >> We're down to, what do we have? We have three left to do. Employee
-only signswhichwe have already said is not required. I believe, although I don't see
-- that one's done. Directories and staff identification signs, that's the only other one that I and we have 2 in A and I think that that absolutely needs to be included under VMS and loops and I would like to see it do a couple of other things with is that as well so I'm going to suggest that we hold off on that until the next meeting and that anybody would like to motion that we adjourn, I'll second it as chair. >> So moved. >> So moved. Thank you, guys have a wonderful 4th of July. >> Absolutely. Wonderful 4th of July. August 2nd is our next meeting and you'll be getting a presentation probably in the last week of July. I'll get that out as soon as I get it pinned down at the convention. Everyone, keep cool. I don't even want to look to see what the temperature and humidity are here, but I'm hoping that wherever you are, it's better than it is here. Oh, we're down
-- we're only at 90 degrees right now.>> And for those of you on the east coast, watch out for the storm.

>> Oh, yeah, what is it, Arthur? >> Yes. >> Everyone, stay safe. Enjoy the 4th of July. And thank youvery much. >> Thank you. Enjoy the holiday. (End)