areas of my life. There were many important areas that I really had been unaware of, including the real nature of both of my parents.

PHE: have had some wonderful training for the brilliant work you have done on Charles PHE: have had some wonderful training for the brilliant work you have done on Charles Darwin (1809-1882). Your ability to see him from your perspective as a medical doctor, psychoanalytic psychiatrist, and psychohistorian allows for a depth of insight that those non- psychoanalytically trained just don't have available to them.

RC: I went into psychiatry, under the influence of my father I performed surgery for RC: I went into psychiatry, under the influence of my father I performed surgery for three years at Mt. Sinai Hospital and then for two years in the Air Force. I think that gave me a feeling for physically suffering people -- many of them had abdominal pains and complaints, which Darwin had, and so I had that perspective on him. As a psychotherapist, one thing I have learned is that the symptoms a patient suffers from, especially with severe depression and anxiety, are determined by several factors that overwhelm the ego for a time. That is what happened to Darwin but only for a time because he recovered from his illness and continued to go on with his work. With Darwin, I have been able to identify the psychological factors that caused his major i llness (with Chagas' disease of the stomach making him more sensitive). At times the great naturalist feared he would die early. In 1848-1849 he thought he was dying. Five people he felt close to died of stomach problems so he was especially concerned about this. I wonder what Darwin was clinically like but no doctor who saw him has left a medical report.

PHE: you had a full realization of just how much people could suffer, whether from the mind PHE: you had a full realization of just how much people could suffer, whether from the mind or the body, or both. You got to see both sources of pain, as opposed to those who want to put all all the etiology of suffering in the body or in the mind. I was a pre-medical student until I rebelled against my father's career plan for me, fearing I might inadvertently hurt or even kill patients. I'm curious as to what surgery didn't provide for you or if you had fears regarding it, such as the ones that influenced my decision.

RC: could do the operations but I had too much psychic conflict about not being as good as my RC: could do the operations but I had too much psychic conflict about not being as good as my father -- I didn't have his innate talent and flare. Besides, I wasn't really that interested in operating -- I was interested in talking to the patients and finding out their life stories. My mother believed in the life of the mind but my father put it down. He said, 'Look, if you can't answer why Hamlet delayed, so what! But if you can't answer what is wrong with a patient, it can be his life.' He felt that surgery was superior to intellectual studies. [long pause]

PHE: felt that surgery was a matter of life or death, and that intellectual activities were just PHE: felt that surgery was a matter of life or death, and that intellectual activities were just talk.

## RC: RC:

PHE: your father and Darwin's father were prominent doctors who overpowered sons PHE: your father and Darwin's father were prominent doctors who overpowered sons whose interests were less immediately practical than their own.