RC: was always a tension between Darwin and his father, as there was between me and RC: was always a tension between Darwin and his father, as there was between me and mine. Darwin managed his father much more successfully than I did my own. While the tension persisted, he got income from his father, which I never received from my father, and he got his father to take care of him when he was sick, which was very important. I could not adapt my father to my purposes until after his death.

PHE: that have been an issue of the fathers far more than of the sons? Darwin's father PHE: that have been an issue of the fathers far more than of the sons? Darwin's father was psychologically aware and empathetic with people, and yours was not. Dr. Robert Darwin practiced a type of psychological medicine partly because he hated the sight of blood, as did his son. Thus, he could help his patients with their symptoms at a time when bloodletting was the prime form of treatment -- and if you operated, the patient was inclined to die of either shock or infection. It was very good to have a father-doctor who was psychologically attuned to others, including his own son Charles and his needs. So even though the son was in awe of the father, the father helped the son to find his own way. Your surgeon father, by comparison, saw the issues in physical, medical, surgical terms. To him, things were much more a matter of right or wrong and black or white. Because of the residue of your parents' divorce, he was also a more distant force in your life than was Dr. Robert Darwin in the life of Charles, whose mother died when he was eight years old.

## RC:

Yes, that is true.

PHE: Dr. Robert Darwin could be more empathetic than was your father. What was his PHE: Dr. Robert Darwin could be more empathetic than was your father. What was his name? Oh! Of course. Ralph Colp, Senior! My embarrassing momentary denial of reality -- I know your name so well -- is based upon my never seeing you as "Junior." Yet you have always seen yourself as a junior. You always insisted on that for so many years in our conversations. Yet I always see you as a senior: you are such an accomplished intellectual, psychiatrist, psychohistorian, and psychotherapist.

## RC:

Yes, that's valid.

PHE: strength as a Darwin scholar is rooted in your incredible empathy for him. When did PHE: strength as a Darwin scholar is rooted in your incredible empathy for him. When did your lifelong interest in Darwin take on the form of scholarship?

RC: really began in 1959 with the sense of my beginning to become my own person -- leaving RC: really began in 1959 with the sense of my beginning to become my own person -- leaving surgery, marrying, beginning and finishing my psychiatric residency, and having my first The Origin of Species child. Also, November 1959 was also the centenary of and Darwin was Young Man Luther much talked about. It was in that year also that I read Erikson's , which I think has influenced me perhaps more than any other book in psychohistory, despite my having serious reservations about it as a contribution to Luther studies. Young Man Luther was invaluable to me as a way of doing psychobiography and of understanding the concept and imagery of identity and identity crisis. It was in the course of working with psychiatric patients that I first began, in the words of Erikson, to "detect some mea ningful resemblance between what' I had come to see in myself and what I judged my Young Man Luther patients, colleagues, and supervisors expected me to be. ( , p. 14) I was