PHE: teaching Darwin, I have always told my students that one of the keys to his drive to PHE: teaching Darwin, I have always told my students that one of the keys to his drive to success, as well as to his conflict over success as a naturalist, was Charles' disproving his father's statement and prophecy: ''You care for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat -catching, and Autobiography you will be a disgrace to y ourself and all your family.'' ( , p. 28)

RC: think that is very important. That was a momentary outburst of his father but the general RC: think that is very important. That was a momentary outburst of his father but the general attitude that the father and sisters had toward him was that he was 'a very ordinary boy.' One of Darwin's strongest characteristics was his perseverance. Behind that perseverance must have not been a mixture of anger and defiance: the feeling that 'I am an ordinary boy.' But behind that defiance was the feeling that deep down he was ordinary, that he was ugly, that he had bunions, and that he was looked on as stupid. 'I will show them!' And he did in his own quiet way.

PHE: listening to your descriptions of Darwin in relationship to his father, I keep coming PHE: listening to your descriptions of Darwin in relationship to his father, I keep coming back to the many similarities you have with him. For example, you also deviated from the career plans of your father, as Darwin did when he failed to be either a doctor or clergyman, when you left surgery for psychiatry and scholarship. Like Darwin you are a non-believer who is quite tolerant of the belief or non-belief of others. Like him, you prefer one to one conversations and relationships to group relations and discussions.

RC: you are right on all three counts. You know quite a bit about me through our RC: you are right on all three counts. You know quite a bit about me through our friendship and the Psychohistory Forum sessions on the motivations and fathers of psychohistorians at which we both presented in the 1980s and 1990s.

PHE: Forum researchers have been struggling with the issue of identification with a PHE: Forum researchers have been struggling with the issue of identification with a particular parent and achievement. I got different things from each parent. While RC: To Be an Invalid identifying with my mother's intellectualism, in deciding to rewrite I was influenced by my father's interest in physical symptoms and the very tough standards he set for his operations, which I believe I carry over to my standards in scholarly writing. For a man, the father is the main source of manly achievement.

## PHE:

In your experience, are high achievers more identified with their fathers?

RC: dozen or so graduate students I have known who have achieved excellence in their RC: dozen or so graduate students I have known who have achieved excellence in their all careers had high-achieving fathers. Many students with high-achieving fathers were inhibited by the scale of their father's success or, more frequently, had too many conflicts about their success. Students from economically poor and disadvantaged homes suffered from absence of fathers or from fathers who lacked achievements. Fathers who were unsuccessful but had fantasies of success were sometimes inspirations to their sons to succeed, especially in cases of a loving father.

PHE: are some trends in graduate students' psychodynamics you have observed over the PHE: are some trends in graduate students' psychodynamics you have observed over the four decades of your career working with them?