this is an interview with div gar the founder of mulon the footage got corrupted but honestly it doesn't matter because div shared so many AI agent Secrets I know you're going to love it anyway I saw you recently visited the Llama free team at meta what did you learn from them and did they share any secrets about the 405 billion model I I see them maybe becoming the biggest player especially because like Mark is really con convicted about uh doing this and like building the best offensers models and uh so think this could be very interesting and uh we're looking to collaborate with them and uh see if we can like uh use their capabilities but also maybe like in the future do a partnership where we can like bring our agents to improve u a lot of like different Services across the board so maybe like a locally run version of mulon yeah yeah totally so that could be really cool little sneak peek so why do you think people don't believe in Zak I mean it feels like he almost has this like negative reputation here he has a very like robotic Persona so I think he has a lot of like negative uh maybe slightly negative Public Image but I think like right now it seems to be taking a turn around so I think people are liking him more and maybe they just got a better marketing team how to say but uh they're doing a good job yeah so you are bullish on open source or do you think like a closed source is always going to be like ahead like one to two years or something by the way it's the last 48 hours where if you join my community you will get a personalized AI strategy made just for you and of course you'll get access to all the trainings and workshops as well as two weekly calls where you can talk to me directly if that sounds valuable then make sure to join now because this offer ends in 48 hours um I say it's I'm very bullish on open source because I think open source is catching up they're getting like close to gbd4 um I think the thing like there's no secret Source I think the the only thing that um you need for training a model is like data and lot of compute and maybe like a lot of people who are like know how to like train this model at scale uh the thing is like it's not that hard to get uh um at at a particular level like say for example for MAA and um and so once you have all this like three ingredients you can basically build the best models and then it's all about like the speed and like how much can you itct then the good thing about being open sources you can just build the base models but then people find out use cases they'll find you and they will do a lot of custom things and I think longterm I think open source will beat close source and like okay so you think open source is going to catch up then like what gives the closed Source the main advantage like is it the data is it the compute is it the talent um I'll would say right now it's definitely like the data and U maybe the talent like if you look at like anthropic and open they have a lot of talent there but now what's starting to happen is I think um people are starting to like sort of like I think as open source becomes more common I think people will also have a pressure to open source from different Labs um or like like the tent also keeps moving so like if meta is doing a lot of Open Source Mr is doing a lot of Open Source so there's almost equal access to resources now and uh if you if you imagine like everyone has the same Talent same compute same data and then if one is open source one is closed Source then it makes sense for open source to be more advantageous so like why did we see this like because if you go like 10 years back everything was basically open source right all the research was open so that but then the field kind of went closed now it maybe it's opening up again like why do you think that happened like it's closing down I think one was like uh like I'll just say like uh like uh capit like just profitability so I think like um I will say two things profitability and maybe like a risk so what happened likely is a lot of people thought like this models are going to get super powerful and we can't disclose how we building them um so because that could like lead to maybe like some sort of like issues where like we might have malicious actors doing like what of the crazy things uh and a good like analogy here might be like nuclear bombs for example so last year people thought like okay like this could be like as dangerous as nuclear attack but then people tried it's been one year gbd4 is kind of D everyone knows that at this point and they're like okay F it's like okay like it doesn't really do anything so it's like maybe might as well just like uh put it out there so I don't think like what happened is like it just maybe was that people started fearing like like this research is dangerous so we don't want to go and put it out there for everyone to like replicate this and second was also like u a lot of this like uh when you're training models just ping like Millions to billions of dollars and you need a way to like recoup the cost um and like for open a I think this is basically the business so they need to be have some sort of like Secret SCE that's close source for people to pay them otherwise no one will pay them and they W they will just be losing money um for someone like meta or like even like Google it doesn't matter because they're not making money from Models so the money they can just like train as many models as they want and just give it out for free and it won't impact their business um so it becomes like an interesting strategy for like this bigger companies so you think like making the model itself the bit like the core of the business do you think that's a risk strategy I think so I think like a lot of people are realizing that um and that's where they're trying to like uh move towards like uh new spaces um so open is now doing a lot of like video modeling which is so I think the strategies just keep building better models for different modalities which could be interesting if as long as they are able to like uh be the winner or be the first per like innovator in the space um but I think long term I think they're also trying to go like own the hardware own the model own the maybe have their more applications um so I think at the end I think applications will become the winning thing like if you're building something that's useful people are using it people are loving it people are willing to pay for it I think that's the only sustainable thing uh in the long okay so then why Google doesn't open source anymore like obviously they gave us Gemma but like I'm talking about like the state of the art models right because they did open source the attention is all you need paper and that was like you know the beginning of the Transformer Revolution so why why don't they open source Gemini 1.5 uh totally I think it's inter question um I think and like I've worked in Google and I know how Google philosophy works it's just like very hard there's a lot of legal red tape around doing anything uh and even like releasing research uh papers out there or even like releasing a model open source so I think it's just like very there's a lot of like bureaucratic retp on getting things out there so even if they want to I think they will have a lot of like uh issues doing that um and I think they also don't U um I think they kind of confused I feel in that sense they don't know what exactly is the right strategy like should they copy open AI or should they try to do something different um yeah so so I think they're kind of in the middle place right now where like for meta they're like okay we don't really care we just like put it out there um it's not part of the Core Business okay so then like is that inevitable with scale like will every company hit that kind of bureaucratic ceiling or is it possible to have like a trillion dollar tech tech that innovates just as much as a startup uh I think that's a good question uh yeah that's a good question I think it might be possible it's very hard to say um but uh like even if like x. for example they're doing some stuff and they're also open sourcing a lot of the models um so I do think like uh just because there's so much open source pressure now from like meta and XII and M I think uh it just creates this thing like the winners will might just be open source everyone will have to move towards open source so okay so it does sounds like you think that eventually like Google and open a will also be pressured to be opened do you think that will happen I think they definitely have the pressure like even like if I was like if I was open like like if you if would like open source 3.5 like no one will even care because it's but they don't um right like why so I think it's interesting it's also I think what happens is like once your company starts to grow I think open has started as a nonprofit research but now they're like a for-profit company they um um have a lot of like board control from Microsoft and now they want to become like a profitable business make a lot of U make sure like Okay can they uh ACR a lot of resources and once you think of this as like a like a sort of like a monetary basis it doesn't make any sense for them to open source anything I see so okay then what do you think like Zak's main strategy is because I've seen a lot of people work like confused by this like some people think it's just philosophy some people think it's to like get the community to fine tune the models make them more efficient that way he can save compute in the apps some people think it's to like destroy the entire competition like you know make better free models than everyone is making closed models so what do you think yeah I think I'll would say Facebook is really good at this actually so they did this with like P for example so P eventually uh overtook like T CL and then got the best community support um and and then sort of like became the defao framework uh for like training models so I think meta sees they could do something similar with u uh what they're doing with llama that they can get the best commun option become the standard for any developer who wants to run models uh and they see like this could uh in the long term become like the the best option possible and the good thing for them is like they don't even have to care because it's just like uh it's not impacting their social business because they're like a social network it's like this is just like a arit thing they're doing because they have the money and time but it doesn't really impact their business metrics okay so and then like speaking on the safety do you think that's the safer approach or do you think it's like more risky because I've seen people you know on both sides um I like right now the models are not really capable enough um so I think it's and people have already have access to them for year we have not seen anything major uh risky happening like um over the last year so there's not any sort of like like anything that will flag like okay like this was like a really big uh dangerous thing that someone did with the model um and and so I think like right now I think people feel safe and they have the confidence okay they releasees models out there at this perimeter sizes uh there's nothing harmful that's possible um I'll be more concerned about like agent te Solutions because once you have like more like agent capabilities then like then things can go more wrong because you can build bot Nets you can build like lot of like U spamware malware and then you can like uh and then that could be like really dangerous but if it's just like a model people have already seen and it can't really do much over the last year and now they have the confidence like if maybe something is less than a trilon size panometer it's good enough that you can just put it out there and not worry about it okay so in general like because my theory is that you know if you make something open source then you can take tens of millions of developers and all look through it whereas you know even the biggest research I have is like there what are the red teams like 20 30 maybe 50 people so like my um my theory is that if you have like the entire population looking through the source code that is um probably safer but like in terms of the Bad actors do you think it's more like CU you you mentioned the agent right and do you mean like more of a human taking the agents and doing bad with it like building a bot net or the agents like going off on their own more like Bad actors because like even if you imagine there's a lot of people who are like doing a lot of like uh email spam or like phone scam and stuff like that now suppose like this actors uh got access to like identic capabilities was like okay like now maybe I can go and scam like uh uh like like not me but personally but like suppose some person can go and scam like 10 people now they'll be like okay now I have access to this agent I can go scam like 10,000 people instead of like 10 people and and then you can imagine that that becomes like really bad and especially because you're empowering these Bad actors to do more malicious things and uh and so moderation for these things becomes like how do you moderate this um I I think at the end of the day it's always like there's like going to be some bad actors and it's like okay like how do you prevent them from misusing any sort of new technology that comes out oh and so like isn't like isn't the counterargument to that like if you make it open source you can defend yourself against that because like if you have the same model um or like you know because like most people are good and like most companies are good right so let's say you have like 99 pieces of compute versus one can't you just like make the world's best anti virus or anti- spam system and detect against that uh I think it's possible it's just like uh it's so new you don't even know what you're are like protecting against um and then it's very hard to fight something you don't know about um and so I think it might there might be a race about like a viruses and a antiviruses and stuff like that that might happen uh so we might see some like interesting stuff happening in the ecosystem as Things become more capable um but but I think yeah I think the right way to do that there is like have a lot of moderations so even for the like the Lama modelers are open sour they moderated in the sense like they have G through RF and Alignment so I do think like alignment is very critical uh especially if you are doing any sort of like agentic thing with it and it's not aligned then it might go and like do like illegal stuff or you might just use it for like whatever like uh emptying someone's bank account and then you want to like not uh be able to you want to prevent that and like make sure like okay like that is not possible okay so shifting topics a bit mulon what's your vision behind it and what separates it from other agent tools look we all know that AGI is right around the corner but most people are completely unprepared that's why I created an entire workshop on how to prepare for the Post AGI World which you can access inside of my community by the way in 48 hours the price is going up so if you are serious about AI then make sure to join now see you inside uh the vision behind mulon has been a can you build um almost like a air assistant that can go do a lot of the boring everyday things for you and so like what happens is like um everyone spends a lot of time like say like texting emailing uh travel booking flights booking hotels and there's like a lot of random things you have to do even like say paying rent for example or filing your taxes and it feels like uh why do you have to do this right it's like you're already living in the 22nd century and like there's already like um there like so much technology there's so much AI it kind of feels like you should have something that can go and like do this automatically for you and I think that's what we want to build um with mult so you want this sort of like a your personal AI helper in a sense it's like you have this agent take solution then you can just ask it like okay like go do my Taxas go go fill my whatever like uh spreadsheet for work and like free up a lot of time um because what happens like you spend like I would say 80% of your time on very boring things which basically you don't even need to use your brain capacity you just like um basically using your muscle memory and just like doing the repetive actions again and again but then if you have a a that can just go do this for you it just freezes so much time and then you can focus on a lot of like the things you really enjoy um which are like more high level more creative and I think that's the vision we want to empower like if everyone can have this then that will change uh how we interact with technology how we free of a time and how we like sort of like do things every day and what is the single most common use case you've seen people use multi on for uh totally so I think it's interesting we have seen a variety um I'll say because right now say we have seen a lot of around emailing a lot of people are starting to use it for like sending out emails or even like ker invites uh reservations has been a big one a lot of like restaurant reservation activities like even like you want to book like cinema tickets or concert tickets uh so we've seen a lot of people use our agents to like just go and do it um and our agents are still early but as you're making it more powerful we seeing people also starting to for like okay like can it book a complete trip for me so can it just go book me this like a flight and uh and just like free of my time so I know to go visit the website and uh spend any time on it yeah I mean there's so many of these tasks like throughout the day like it's the concept of like death by Thousand Cuts right so it's not like one thing it's like this takes two minutes this takes three minutes and like I think that's where AI agents could be absolutely huge tot it's like basically everyone having their personal intern in a sense and if some everyone had an intern and they can just delegate as much as possible yeah okay so like talking about agents what do you think will unlock like the next like agent Revolution will it be like better UI or better memory better reasoning or do we need U even better llms I think it'll be a combination of a lot of things but I think at the end what matters is can you build U user trust and can you beable enough um so if you can build an agent that people like trust like okay it's not going to me it's it's it like it's controllable it listens to me it does what I wanted to do and it's second thing is it doesn't fail so it's reliable if I ask you to do something it actually go and do it it won't listen it and tell me like it's done but actually didn't do it because that's really bad um and and so if you can solve the two issues around like trust and reliability I think that's the most important um and then there will be a lot of stuff around like what's the right interaction patterns how do you make it like as um seamless as possible as fun to use as possible um but I think uh yeah so those are like the things where like you need to like sort of like build a like almost like a bond with the user and like if you can build the right Bond and then can like okay like this actually works and like it's is cool and it's actually I I should be using this every day then I think can get out there okay so like today you know because if You' like sure there are AI early adopters who are like all in on agents but like talking about the average person right if youd told them like this is a AI agent it will take care of your inbox you'll be like whoa I don't trust it right like why why don't people still trust agent today like what is the reason I think it's like almost a behavoral change right it's like if you're trying something for the new time you will be a bit skeptical okay like H let's actually go and do it um especially because most people uh I would say don't have that technical expertise so for them it's like a black box like okay like like is this is this like actually true or like is it like a something like fishy um and what we have seen with a lot of our users for example is because U our agents are working on like U uh on a UI level so they're like like controlling UI and like automating like browser tasks it's very visual so you can see what's happening and then you can like actually understand like oh it's doing the right thing and then you can build a trust but if it's like running maybe like fully headlessly invisible and like H I don't know maybe like did send the email did not send the email um there's no way to like fact check and then maybe like once but like if something's visual it's just very easy to like know okay like this seems to work I tried it five times I did it five out of five times now I don't care if it it's running it's running invisibly or it's running in the cloud it's running on the phone I just know like I've seen it to work the UI is really the next billion dollar question in terms of Agents if not more um that's like going to enable the US like the non-technical users to get the advantage of Agents right is that like the vision behind mulon not totally like um like I would say we like to say we are like a technology and Design Group um so we emphasiz on the design because I think if you want to build any consumer experience you need to write just have the uh make it seem as make it like not as intuitive as possible um and and so we're trying to take uh as much philosophy frombe like like places like apple on how we can build the right experience for people to start using agents in every day like um and so the UI actually becomes like very important there where like what's the UI where I can build trust where if something goes wrong I can like still like maybe like use the agent I still like trust this uh can I can we show options to the users because like uh user probably doesn't want uh like they don't want you to just go and like buy any food item or like anything like you say like buy me a burger they don't want like random Burger to just show up your home they want like customization they want like like this is how much I should have this is like restaurants I like so building the at UI where like like the users have a lot of fun exploring the UI engaging with the agent and then like actually like delegate it I think that's a very big challenge right now and I think we are actually doing a lot of like Innovative things where we think we have the right way to do this and now it's all about like like uh getting out there with a lot of users testing it and see if people love what we're building yeah and like I mean I absolutely agree I mean CH gbt was Clear Proof of this because you know gbd3 was available in the playground for like two years and nobody I mean obviously people in AI used it but like nobody from the white public used it uh why do so many tech people underestimate the power of UI yeah I think it's it's just like a what happens is like when you're technical you're just like I think I think you're in a sense like taught to ignore the U because like you're focusing on the technical Parts like what's the underlying technology and so you sort of like have like learned like your brain has learned okay like Let's ignore all the form factor Let's ignore all like things look like and just like focus on the technology because that's the only way you are like sort of like understanding what's going behind the scene and so because you're spending all your time trying to understand what's behind the scene you don't understand what the scene looks like and I think that's and when you're a non person they're like they don't care about what fasy most of the time they care about the scene itself and I think that's posa is like discrepancy where like you just have spent so much time trying to understand what's behind that you're missing out the complete picture so what are the like key aspects of a great UI like I would say Al say UI something that changes um um based on like what you want to do and also like the technology so I think there's this great quote from Steve Jobs uh where he says like design is how it works and so if you're trying to build a new experience um the UI should be like what can get it as seamlessly and as intuitively as possible for the experience that you want to design and I think that sort of becomes like if okay now if you want to design agents what is the right experience or like what's like Bond you want to build is like like uh do you want it to be friendly do you want to like have some sort of empathy do you want to show like this is like trustworthy and then like I think like it's like okay like how can you build a UI that can invoke the kind of experiences that that kind of like um uh bonding with the user and I think you basically have to start with uh what is the final Vision or what's the final goal and then then come back and materialize that into like the the UI and the design form factor so when you're thinking about this for mulon are you like what is the basically the current target audience is it the AI enthusiasts or is it everybody so we starting with a lot of AI Enthusiast like lot of like early Tech adopters but over time we want to Shi to a lot of like uh non-technical Mass Market uh users who just want this in their everyday life and also like for me like like I started this company out of my own personal pinpoint I was like I was doing a phg at sford I was like okay like I just want to like focus on my time like doing research and like writing papers I don't care about all this like uh logistic stuff you have to do uh in your life and I was like okay like it'll be so good to just have something that's doing this for me um and so just like understanding the paino and like relating to the user I think that's very important and and and I think like now we see okay like with all the smart devices that are coming out people are like okay like okay I tried this human P it's cool but like can it actually go and like buy me something or can it actually do something useful for me and I was like okay like this is actually what you're building right and like this what M trying to Sol and like we if you go and like start do Partnerships with all these companies who are building like all the smart Hardwares then we can like build something really useful and something that people already want like people are like trying it like like this seems to be missing we really want this and I like okay like this is exactly what we can offer to people yeah I think that's like a massive thing what people already want like so many of great companies were started where the founder were just solving his own problem like can you speak on the power of that uh I think it's very important because what happens is um with a lot of like like startups or businesses they're trying to like do a lot of like uh user research find the right user profile fit that and like do a lot of like pivoting around like did this work did this not work get ad option cuz you don't understand the user but if you are like just building for yourself you're like okay like this this one user I want to make happy uh I know everything about the user I know what exactly is needed and I'm just building that and then once you build it then it's like extrapolation okay like if you can solve this problem for one person can you not solve this for like 10 10 people now can you solve this for 100 people and then you can extra it um but like what happens is like if you are just trying to solve something which you don't know you're imagining a problem uh and you have like an imaginary person in mind then you don't know what the imagining person exactly actually wants right uh and I think that's what a lot of Founders Miss especially on consumer side you just have to like build for something that you just know about and like that best person usually is just you so at what point did like multi on turn from a personal project to a company um I think this was maybe around last year almost one year ago where ini was building this uh as a side project spending a lot of time on evenings and weekends um and we got it to work really well so I was able to go ask you like say order Burgers on door Das or like send emails or like um shop on Amazon um and then I made this one video on uh Twitter which blew up uh so we had more than a million views and more than a thousand likes and then people really like were like oh like this is super cool we just really want this and then we did a lot of surveys where we had like 10,000 people fill out like a type form fully organically and then we like okay like we're willing to pay like $100 a month if you can actually go and like build this thing I was like okay this seems like crazy like people really seem to want this um and I think that sort of like caus transition like okay let's go and actually build this as a thing that um people other than just me can like go and use it in their everyday life uh and and and I think it's just like fulfilling to just see like when people use things you build and like start using it and you see this adoption it's just like very uh interesting to see as a as an inventor so like a lot of people especially on like the pessimistic side think that you know know AI agents and people that are building them want to replace humans but it sounds to me like you want to actually make people more effective no totally totally I think that's what we see um so so you can think like what happens is U if you're doing like something like uh like even like say filing texes for example it's like okay like you have to spend so much time but if you had an agent that can go just file your taxes for you it's like everyone will be happy I think no one will complain about it and there's also a lot of things where like you have to just spend like crazy amount of time um like uh just like going through different uis or like research and stuff like that but what can happen is we can reduce everything to like maybe like final step approval was like maybe I can go and like find You The Right Flight and we like okay here's the flight option you just choose it and it's done um so instead of like taking like 30 steps like going through all the menus and everything you just like tell the yeah okay just go find me the best things and then you just like confirm like I like this one and so you can reduce everything to like two or three interactions instead of like uh like 30 or 40 interactions and so we see this power where like you still want to empower humans so that the humans are still doing the decision- making but the AI is taking care of all the boring and the parts that you don't really care about and and the second thing we also see is we can allow people to do just more because once you free of time like right now the human brains also like so how the human brain works is it's like single threaded in a sense so we can only do one thing at a time like people like you probably would have heard like you can't you should not do like too many things but once do one thing at a time uh so we don't just we are not genetically wired to be able to like uh spread our Consciousness across 10 different things and like we able to do that together but like if you had like agents and then you can imagine like okay like I just asked the agent like here the 10 Things I care about the agent just goes and does all the 10 things and then gives me okay here's the 10 things I did and then just like approve it like this was good this was bad maybe like do that do this again and then you can just unlock this so much like a capability where now instead of just doing one thing at a time I can maybe just doing like 10 10 things at a time or maybe 100 things at a time and we see that that could be like really really interesting it's almost like a new primitive for us as a humans where now we can just have this like paralyzation power which we didn't have before yeah I think it's almost you know the time is amazing but I think it's almost like saving the mental bandwidth is almost like more valuable right CU like there could be a future where we as people don't even go to any websites we just tell our agent who ask as you said like an intern or a personal assistant that just you know we tell it what we need and it goes and figure out everything else and then it's like basically agents interacting with agents like do you think that's probable yeah I don't think it's going to happen like suppose I had an agent you had an agent it's possible your agent is interacting with my agent yeah and then a lot of mental bandwidth like scheduling this you know we could save both some time like I would say like hey I think uh this this um like would be a really good conversation and my agent okay great checks out your Twitter checks out your email like finds all the contact info uh you know your agent gives a calend deink like he has the free dates and like that would save us both few minutes but like hundreds of these tasks are happening right so like I think that's like really people don't see this because they always want to do this like oh my God agents cannot automate this eight hour thing it's like well okay maybe start at this like two minute thing like that you do every day or every other day that's annoying and like go from there because I mean it's not really like aspirational to automate some two-minute task but like it's the compounding effect right totally totally I think it's all about the compounding effect it's like almost like you have like a small mosquito bites happening all the day and then you might be getting 100 2,000 bites and then if you like remove all the small bites and you just like like uh reducing a lot of like mental load even if you think about like why people get stress it's like you just have to do this all this like things you don't want to do and that causes a lot of stress but if if you don't have to do it I think you you will we can actually reduce a lot of like mental burden stress and overall make people more happy so maybe agents are the key tool living forever maybe Brian Johnson should look into this but yeah okay uh so we we talked about a few use cases like booking flights and stuff like that but how do you personally use AI agents like if you had to say like one or two use cases that you personally find the most valuable what would they be um I definitely like I optimize my life to use agents a lot uh or or I will say basically maybe like our agents optimized towards my life um and so like I I use like like our agents for like say like ordering lunch uh calling Ubers if I'm to office um um even like sending out a lot of emails sending out like documents if I'm sending like any sort of like ndas or any other documents on like Doc sign can just say like okay can you go and like send this like a document to this person and the agent can actually go and do it if you want to like add some people on U like a Google workspace or slack uh then just as simple asent okay like can you go and like add this person create a new account for them or can you ch tweak this setting on on the AWS account or can you spin up this like whatever like a new uh back in VM um and then so it's like it's kind of very convenient because just like okay like uh I don't even have to like like see what's happening because now I just have the stress I know like it's just going to work so I just like delegate okay just go do this and and you just like save so much like mental burden because like I don't have to think about this problem anymore it's it's just like not my uh like it's yeah I don't have to spend any mind space thinking about how to do this it's just like okay I did it and I I give it to this agent and the agent will go and do it for me and from your experience like how often does it happen where the agent is incorrect enough where it like actually matters like I would definely say we are not perfect so maybe I would say one out of 20 times as possible the agent might do something wrong we have built a lot of yeah thanks we have built a lot of mechanisms where it can actually ask you for things so like suppose it confused or maybe it made a mistake like okay like I uh it seems I'm stuck can you help me or like um I don't know how to do this or I don't have this credentials I don't I don't have a login so can you log me in and so we have build this like sort of like a lot of features on where the agent will like ask the user uh when it gets stuck or it doesn't know what to do and we've seen like this is just like very empowering because like in that case like you have this like like inste of just going doing something random and failing it's actually coming back to you and like uh adding you in the loop and then you can give it a correction or you can give it some input and then it can go and like go do the right thing and then the next time it can also remember this so the next time it will like remember like like I did these things and this are the things issues I run into so the next time it can go through and like become better yeah so I mean that just goes like crazy when you have like scale right because if somebody else does this task then whoever does it second like okay the first guy maybe is like let's say 50/50 chance it goes wrong the second guy only 25 and just goes like to zero very very quickly right basically yeah and and I think like you just need things like this to make agents work um and I think people underestimate the power of uh uh crowdsourcing and like there's a lot of network effects which are very hidden uh when it comes to agents but I think that's a like a lot of like uh like small things that matter a lot yeah I imagine like striking the balance of when the agent should ask a question like that's one of the you know big questions because like you don't want it to be annoying but you also don't want it to like the user be completely in the blank yeah like you said like you want the user to still have some input and if the agent gets stuck you want to ask a question but like if it keeps asking every other minute then it's like yeah it can get annoying totally totally so yeah it's definitely question of taste in a sense where like you want to be like like is this uh it's it's almost like uh is it friendly and uh good enough but it's just like not too annoying yeah so it sounds like in the near future all of us will be like managers of multiple different teams of Agents underneath us even people who like aren't really at The Cutting Edge do you agree with this I totally agree with this like uh like for me like uh like for me when when I started as like a solo founder to now managing like a team of like almost like 10 people like I've been through this journey where like like I went from like a solo person like as an individual to now like a manager um like 10 10 humans uh but like now you can imagine like U like I sort of like know how it feels but now I can totally see like everyone having like agents they managing uh and everyone becoming a manager in that sense like okay like I have this like agents that are going and doing things and then I'm managing and like checking like okay did the right thing did something massive and how do you make sure like okay like overall uh everything is working as well as possible so how far away are we from that future where everybody has like 20 agents underneath them um I think we're pretty close I'm not sure like Al might by the end of this year we might have this capability where at least a good amount of people I would say like everyone might be have a lot of this agents that they're just using uh to do a lot of stuff um but I do think like maybe like over the next two or three years I think this transition will happen where you will just have the societal change where people will just get used to it it will become the norm that okay like this is how you should do things like it's like if you don't have this U if you don't have agent like something's wrong with you and I think that's going to happen in the next three years I think will it's almost like having an iPhone or like a phone right so if someone doesn't have a phone it's like why doesn't this person have a phone it's like that's so weird right and same thing happens like why doesn't this person have agencies yeah it be like annoying talking to somebody who doesn't have an agent because they won't respond instantly what everybody else is like instantly responding and instantly booking or like saying if if they're interested it's like you waiting for that one friend that doesn't have any agents like waiting two days for his response like what is he doing yeah totally totally and I think it just happens even if you think about the internet it's like when the internet happened like no one had internet like before 2000s but then afterwards I like everyone has internet like if you don't have internet at your home like like that's something like really weird in that sense so I think it's that's how technology goes I think once everything becomes a norm or then you it's just have the expectation that if 99 people have it then like the the one person who doesn't have it should also have it so do you think in this case like the social adaptation will be faster than the previous Technologies because we've seen like this trend where each um Revolution is like a bit faster than the previous one but like there's still like um if you take companies that are not tech companies and people who are not tech savvy those Take Years sometimes decades to adapt yeah I think this will definitely happen faster um because I agree like what happens with every technology is like it happens faster and faster and people have also gotten used to like fastpaced because everything in the digital world right now is so fast you have so many new trends and so many things happening all the time but the average person doesn't see this like we see this but the average person is clueless still that's fair uh that is fair but I think still people see all the AI they like even like average person has TR gbt at this point um and and I think like but um just because there's like so much like social media right now it's very easy for information to spread so if something goes viral on Tik Tok or Instagram it's very possible like then everyone of your friend if someone likes it then everyone in your community might get it um so I think social media becomes like very empowering where like you didn't have this things 10 years ago so like things took time for information to scbe but now for to sprad for new spread is like very very quick yeah that's actually a really good point that social media will always be like the way to educate about technology because we cannot wait for the school system to you know introduce all of this like if if somebody goes like as you said viral on Tik Tok we like look at my friend he has 20 agents working for him and he's just like gets so much done in a day like that could go super viral right and I think that's how people will probably learn about this basically yeah so you recently announced that you um are receiving shipment of 1,24 h100 what do you hope to train with that uh yeah so I think we are using that for a lot of training so we're training a lot of action models which are very proprietary to us and then we seeing like how can we make them more aligned so how can we like spend a lot of time training them to be more aligned to users so collecting a lot of human feedback lot of collecting a lot of like uh user interaction data scale and making sure that they are as reliable as possible so I think we have set up this interal metric we want to reach like 99% reliability um over the next three months over what our agents are doing I think it's really hard because like even like the best product doesn't have that so so we're not sure if we can get there for everything but for at least like some Focus use cases we want to reach that because then it becomes like clearly usable then have the trust um the second thing is also like inference because like AI is so costly right now um spending a crazy amount of money and like if you like giving this to like say supporting like tens of millions of people and how do you make sure that this is something uh that we can serve without bankrupting ourselves and and can we do that at scale uh and like satisfy the demand and then think then you just need a lot of like computer capacity to do that really well yeah what people don't realize is that meta is spending 90% of their gpus on inference and only 10% on training the new models kind of crazy yeah it's kind of yeah so uh apart from on what do you think is the most promising project in the AI field right now yeah I think it's very interesting um there's definitely a lot of activity happening right now um especially on like if you look at robotics as a space um I think I'm starting to get more bullish on robotics taking starting to take off uh with all this like human robotic startups but also like a bunch of like other startups that like getting out there so I think um very bullish and like seeing robots uh in like maybe like on sidewalks on on roads at a start but maybe like then in like restaurants or hotels even your personal like day um so I think I do think like that seem will be like very interesting and I think it's it's kind of crazy how fast things are moving because like if you think about like we will have a you you will imagine like having like the doorboards and stuff like that people thought like that take like 30 years 50 years but everything seems to be happening so fast so how far do you think it is like until everybody has a robot that can do the chores and stuff like that like that's actually affordable not for like 200k maybe for like 10,000 20,000 yeah hard to say I think maybe in the next five years um it's possible like yeah I say my timeline will be like 5 years where you might have like robots that you're just starting to use in your households um and robots can be very cheap actually because like you don't really need much for a robot you need a lot of motors and you need a lot of like uh uh like different like Parts but uh uh overall I think robots are like cheaper to manufacture yeah but like um there is much more like the speed of you know getting them out there is much slower than software obviously yeah do you think do you think like we need basically the physical part of robots to like get to something like AGI or can it happen like just software yeah I think depends how you define AGI because I AGI is very uh abstract so what is what is your definition I I will say something that uh generally super intelligent so if it can beat humans maybe in like uh uh 10 different specialized tasks I will call that okay like this is like good enough to classify as a AGI um and and then there's a lot of like tuning test and like a lot of different things people try to go for um I do think like you can could call something like a digital AGI versus like a physical AGI uh so it's possible you can have like an agent that's like really really good at like understanding everything on the internet and that could be like okay like it just knows everything that's possible like if you think about something like Javis as a concept from Iron Man like I would call it like maybe like that's sort of like AGI that's like digital it knows everything on the internet it doesn't have a physical form but uh maybe you don't need that uh knowledge to forther to classify s yeah so like it basically like the home robots and stuff like that it's it's kind of like the agent but like in the physical form right because um you know it's a good save like this two minute Task 5 minute T taking the trash the same things that agents can do on your browser or computer but in your home day-to-day life right basically yeah so what is the like most impressive robot you've seen so far is this like a physical robot or a digal one well yeah physical robot I say I'm very impressed with like what Tesla is doing so all the Tesla about stuff I think uh I'm not sure like how well does it actually work right now but uh I think it's very it's usually not good to bet bet against Elon like uh usually Elon to win when it comes to this kind of things so I I just see them doing very interesting stuff in this space yeah I mean like the Optimus 2 was like a huge Improvement and it was like only like six months after the first version right so like the rate of progress in Robos is also speeding up like people do not realize this yeah not totally things are moving crazy it's also like there almost like an exponential cycle like things don't real people don't realize this but things compound so if something is like 1X then become 2x then 4X then 8X so it's it's not linear and like so like what Tesla the trajectory they on like if they can just keep making everything 2x better they'll probably have like almost even board in like I don't know three years maximum five years so then why is there recently such a feeling of like we a slowing down in the AI space I've seen so many tweets about this that like oh we're approaching the limits like that but like to me it seems like there are so many exponentials going that sure if one of them seems to be like slowing down there's like 20 others to be like um hold the support right yeah not totally I agree on this I think um LM as themselves may be slow enough because I think people don't know what's next how do you improve this LMS more can you can you just like put more compute or do you just get more scale so maybe the exponentials are saturating for llms in a sense but like if it comes to lot of this physic IAL Hardware a lot of this like maybe like agents and I think those exponentials are just starting um but I think what happens is everything has a saturation point and I think we are maybe reaching some sort of saturation point for like just uh how big can you make LMS yeah so like do you think gp5 will be a huge upgrade or do you think it will be like a small bump because a lot of depends on this a lot of people think that this model will like prove um how the scaling laws look yeah I think it's it's going to be I say what I've heard it's it's it's going to be big leap but not as big as like 3.5 to4 okay so it'll be very impressive but um um maybe not as big as like how four was okay so yeah I mean I'm trying to see like what that is but like I think for agents it could be like especially important because we see like with um you know current even state-ofthe-art models the current version still often cannot handle more than like 710 tools and you know often lose like with more complicated tasks they don't know what to do so like how big do you think it will be a do you think like basically the leap in for agents will be bigger than just the raw llm power um I think so I think so I think you just need a lot of better planning so I think like what's missing right now is like better planning better memory and uh also like better function calling because like what happens with a lot of this like LM is like they get confused like if they're calling more than 10 functions they don't know what to choose they will just like call arbitary things um and I think so we still need a lot of like unfortunately the recording gets cut off here but if you learned anything from this interview then make sure to follow div on Twitter and also check out mulon it's one of the most promising projects in the AI agent space both of them will be linked below