Intel's problems surrounding their
0:01
stability issues affecting 13th and 14th
0:03
gen CPUs appear to be getting worse or
0:06
rather the problem may have been worse
0:08
than we thought initially when server
0:09
managers and Distributors are talking
0:11
about obscenely high failure rates and
0:13
revenue losses in the six figures I
0:16
think it's high time that Intel stops
0:17
ducking their consumers and Shifting the
0:19
blame on motherboard manufacturers or
0:21
user error and gets down to the bottom
0:23
of this problem let's discuss that in
0:25
this
0:26
video hey if you enjoy content like this
0:28
drop a like make sure to sub subscribe
0:30
and smash that Bell so you never miss
0:31
another
0:33
video hey what is going on guys Danny
0:36
here welcome back to the channel and I
0:37
hope you've all been doing well I wanted
0:38
to revisit a topic which we discussed on
0:40
the channel earlier this year pertaining
0:42
to stability and performance issues
0:44
surrounding Intel CPUs as Wendell from
0:47
Level One tech had recently released a
0:48
video on his channel and then did a
0:50
collab discussion with GN on their
0:52
Channel which had some very interesting
0:54
information shared that we'll discuss
0:55
later on in this video this has been an
0:57
ongoing topic that goes as far back as
1:00
last year and really ever since the 13th
1:02
gen CPUs were released on the market in
1:04
2022 many users have reported
1:07
instability with their 13th and 14th gen
1:09
CPUs especially the higher end CPUs like
1:12
the 13900 K and 14900 K these
1:14
instability issues varied from a variety
1:17
of instances such as blue screens of
1:19
death crashing in games seeing out of
1:21
video memory error messages lagging
1:23
stuttering during desktop use high DPC
1:25
and more I knew that diagnosing this
1:27
problem wouldn't be an easy task and
1:29
until this this day we still don't know
1:31
the exact reason why there's been so
1:33
many problems plaguing these Intel
1:35
processors is it a micro code bug is it
1:38
software related are they being
1:39
overclocked too hard is there a defect
1:41
in the hardware who knows many other
1:44
YouTubers have put out some excellent
1:45
videos showcasing their problems some of
1:48
the fixes they applied as well as
1:49
putting out some theories as to what the
1:52
underlying problem possibly could be
1:54
Brian from teia city was one of the
1:55
first guys in the platform to talk about
1:57
the issues last year and he's had
1:59
conversations with individuals while he
2:01
was at compex in 2023 who are within the
2:03
engineering Circles of the manufacturers
2:05
and was told that this was happening
2:07
because of the input output Hub being
2:09
detached from the CPU directly buildo on
2:12
his channel talked about various
2:13
settings within motherboards such as
2:15
power limits and LLC settings that could
2:18
be causing the problems and speaking of
2:20
motherboard settings manufacturers over
2:22
these past couple of months have been
2:24
releasing bios updates with new Intel
2:26
profiles that adhere to the Intel stock
2:28
power delivery guidelines when it comes
2:30
to wattage current and LLC values and I
2:33
felt as though this was probably one of
2:35
the things that was causing instability
2:37
for a lot of users because prior to this
2:40
many motherboard manufacturers would
2:42
have unlimited power limits set as the
2:44
default from the factory so this could
2:46
result in users essentially running
2:48
overclocked CPUs as many users who were
2:51
experiencing issues said their problems
2:53
were fixed when they had lowered the pl1
2:55
and pl2 values to the actual stock
2:57
guidelines and that fixed it for them
2:59
some users said they were able to avoid
3:01
crashing in games by just simply
3:02
lowering their boost ratio multiplier by
3:05
100 or a couple hundred MHz as suggested
3:07
by some game devs some folks had to
3:09
ensure that their current limits were
3:11
set up properly at 307 amps or 400 amps
3:14
if you guys remember that Reddit thread
3:15
I shared in my previous video talking
3:17
about this subject and if you have been
3:19
having issues with your 13th or 14th gen
3:21
chip I highly recommend checking it out
3:24
that thread is still quite active and
3:25
over the course of these last couple of
3:27
months there have been numerous users
3:29
who have contributed to it by adding
3:31
their experiences and also shared what
3:33
settings worked for them and what's good
3:35
is that this thread consists of users
3:37
who are running a variety of different
3:39
motherboards from Asus MSI a gigabyte
3:41
and even NZXT so if you're currently
3:43
experiencing issues yourself some of
3:45
this information shared in this thread
3:47
could be quite valuable to you one of
3:49
the other things that I suggested was
3:51
how many people were using boards with
3:53
unstable memory or XMP and as someone
3:56
who's gone down the ddr5 tuning Rabbit
3:58
Hole one thing I can say with confidence
4:00
is that memory XMP profiles as well as
4:02
qvl lists are garbage with ddr5 I've
4:05
seen far too many instances of XMP
4:08
profiles being unstable or where
4:09
motherboards were cranking certain
4:11
voltages way too high I was messing
4:13
around with a 7600 megga transfers kit
4:16
from Patriot and when just enabling the
4:19
XMP profile on my test bench with a
4:21
13900 K my system agent was being set to
4:24
like 1.37 volts now I don't know who
4:27
exactly would be to blame here if that's
4:29
the memory dim manufacturer or the way
4:32
msi's board was handling it but do you
4:34
know what voltage my chip system agent
4:36
runs stable at 1.15 volts that's it and
4:40
even with my 14900 K on my Asus Rog Apex
4:43
the team group XMP setting was at like
4:46
1.3 Volts for the system agent and all I
4:48
needed was 1.14 Volts for this chip the
4:51
same goes for IMC voltage and my vddq
4:54
they were being set at above 1.4 1.45
4:57
volts when all I needed was I think 1 .
4:59
28 Volts for my IMC voltage and my vdq
5:03
was at 1.35 there are some specific
5:05
sweet spots that will only work for the
5:08
chip and for some reason if you're above
5:09
or below it instability can occur that's
5:12
just the experience I've had with
5:13
tinkering with ddr5 and it's less
5:15
forgiving than ddr4 you guys will see
5:18
how memory plays a role into our
5:19
discussion later on let's Circle back to
5:21
the level one Tech video and by the way
5:23
guys links to all of those videos and
5:25
threads will be posted in the video
5:26
description wend said he's done a lot of
5:29
work over these past four months
5:30
Gathering data from game developers
5:32
reviewing crash dumps and crash reports
5:34
to see what's been going on and it
5:36
really shows what the amount of data and
5:37
valuable information he shared it really
5:39
could not have been achieved without
5:41
sifting through all that data and that's
5:43
something the community should
5:44
appreciate he mentions a Game Dev team
5:46
that works with epic stating how they
5:48
don't think that the pre- Shader issues
5:50
users encounter are due to a problem
5:52
with unreal but rather a problem with
5:54
Intel CPUs and they discuss similar
5:56
tweaks that we've discussed before as
5:58
well as what users in that Reddit thread
6:00
were posting about how you could go
6:01
about avoiding it and resolving it
6:03
Wendell also mentioned how the vast
6:05
majority of game crashes were seen from
6:07
13th and 14th gen CPUs while very little
6:10
were seen from 12th gen CPUs and also
6:12
very little crash reports from AMD
6:14
furthermore some of the system errors
6:16
were IO errors which relates back to
6:18
what Brian was talking about on his
6:20
channel this would also explain why when
6:22
these crashes were occurring users were
6:24
seeing outof video memory error messages
6:26
and then thinking their gpus were
6:27
unstable now I'm not saying this to
6:29
undermine W's work at all or anything
6:31
but we've known for quite some time now
6:33
that PC Gamers using I9 CPUs and I'm
6:35
also seeing a number of 13th and 14th
6:37
gen High 7 users have been experiencing
6:40
issues in games and again what they have
6:42
been told to do is a variety of things
6:43
such as ensure correct power settings
6:46
lower their multipliers Etc so that is
6:48
why a lot of people were also blaming
6:49
motherboard manufacturers instead of
6:51
Intel and thought that hey once all
6:53
these motherboards have the latest bios
6:54
updates with the stock Intel profile
6:56
these users won't have any problems as
6:58
there were Theory is that these CPUs
7:00
were just pushed too hard which is why
7:02
they were experiencing problems in games
7:04
but Wendell actually took his research
7:06
Beyond just your regular average
7:07
consumer who's a gamer and he's also
7:09
gathered information from servers in the
7:11
data center one of the most important
7:13
things to keep in mind when it comes to
7:14
servers is that stability is a huge
7:17
priority for these environments they
7:18
need to aim for 100% stability and these
7:21
servers aren't using gaming z790
7:24
motherboards they use a w680 motherboard
7:27
which has different Power delivery
7:28
requirements and they don't run the
7:30
chips with crazy high power limits or
7:32
really high memory speeds because like I
7:34
said stability is key so you think that
7:36
they wouldn't have any problems right
7:37
well Wendell explains how some of these
7:39
servers whether they were using a w680
7:41
board from Asus or super micro also
7:44
experienced crashes he said a whopping
7:46
50% of systems deployed were
7:48
experiencing the crashes and disabling
7:50
ecores or even disabling hyperthreading
7:52
didn't fix their problems but there were
7:54
some systems where disabling ecores did
7:56
actually fix the problems with some
7:58
systems they said they had to run some
8:00
very conservative ddr5 speeds at 4200
8:03
megat transfers that's basically ddr4
8:05
territory in order to actually stabilize
8:08
the system now getting a bad PC part
8:10
isn't uncommon for those of you who have
8:11
been in the industry for a while now and
8:13
have built multiple systems you've
8:15
probably had to R A Part here and there
8:17
I've had to r a small portion of CPUs
8:20
myself over these years having a small
8:21
minuscule amount of CPUs out of
8:23
thousands and hundreds of thousands be
8:25
bad isn't uncommon but when we're
8:27
talking about a 50% defect rate that
8:30
implies to me that this isn't just a
8:31
small batch that went wrong but there is
8:34
something inherently wrong with these
8:35
CPUs whether it's a broken design that
8:38
Brian was talking about or if it's a
8:40
quality control issue in their Fabs one
8:42
of the data center server providers told
8:44
Wendel that they were dealing with a
8:45
higher than usual support demand for
8:47
those Intel systems where they just said
8:48
screw it we're going to have to start
8:50
charging a higher premium for support
8:52
calls $1,000 higher compared to AMD
8:54
because this is getting too costly for
8:56
us another game developer also told wend
8:59
that they could be looking at
9:00
potentially 100K in Damages due to Lost
9:03
players because of their server crashes
9:05
which had these Intel CPUs running in
9:07
them what's also interesting from W's
9:08
findings is that these problems are
9:10
occurring on Linux servers as well and
9:12
one of the theories that was thrown
9:14
around when this problem started to
9:15
initially surface was that oh it's a
9:17
Windows problem and Intel's got to
9:19
optimize their scheduler properly for
9:21
Windows but now we know Linux users have
9:23
been experiencing these errors as well I
9:25
think this problem is a lot bigger than
9:27
some people are grasping because it's
9:29
one thing to say that oh your gaming
9:30
motherboard was just running an extreme
9:32
overclocking profile and that caused the
9:34
CPU to malfunction but in this case
9:36
we're talking about a server environment
9:38
where they're generally running
9:40
conservative settings to prioritize
9:42
stability lower power consumption lower
9:44
heat and lower noise another interesting
9:46
takeaway from this is that server
9:48
Distributors were reporting how systems
9:50
would be fine upon initial setup they
9:52
would continue to run fine for a while
9:54
and then all of a sudden problems would
9:56
start to appear afterwards this was
9:57
something I actually covered in my
9:58
previous video where we looked at Newegg
10:00
and Amazon reviews of users reporting
10:03
how their systems were fine when they
10:04
set them up they were working fine for a
10:06
few months and then later on they
10:07
started to experience crashes blue
10:09
screen stutters and leg this is how eo's
10:11
problems also started as well where he
10:13
said his system was working great and
10:15
then all of a sudden he started to have
10:16
all sorts of problems and from the
10:18
discussions he and I had he went through
10:20
loads of troubleshooting and just
10:21
couldn't solv them which eventually led
10:23
to him switching back to AMD since we're
10:25
on the subject of longevity one of the
10:27
things I wanted to touch upon was an
10:28
update in in regards to how my system
10:30
was doing because I said in my last
10:32
video that I actually haven't been
10:33
having any problems at all aside from
10:35
DPC issues because earlier this year I
10:38
switched to a 14900 K with a z790 Apex
10:42
and 48 GB of ddr5 that I manually
10:44
overclocked in tune to 8,000 MHz and one
10:47
of the things that I did do from the
10:49
start was I turned off all of the Asus
10:51
AI nonsense disabled multi-core
10:53
enhancement and then used the stock
10:55
Intel guidelines and lowered my LLC this
10:58
was before there were any official Intel
11:00
stock profiles and since then I have had
11:02
no stability issues or crashes again the
11:04
only thing I had was the high DPC
11:06
latency issues that got solved through
11:08
unpark CPU and I'm attributing that to
11:10
more of a scheduler issue if anything
11:12
but apart from that I haven't had any
11:14
issues the system has performed up to my
11:16
expectations in a variety of scenarios
11:18
from gaming to content creation so I
11:20
guess I should feel lucky as I'm
11:22
probably one of those in the 50% who's
11:24
not actually affected by this problem as
11:26
this problem was reported by people who
11:28
are using gaming mother wordss the
11:29
theory was that while the high power
11:31
profiles and overclock profiles or the
11:33
AI stuff was degrading the CPUs but now
11:36
we're talking about CPUs deployed in a
11:37
server setting using conservative
11:39
settings and they still started having
11:41
problems down the road so how do you
11:43
explain that PC Gamer recently posted an
11:45
article citing W's video and they also
11:47
sourced a game Studio known as Al drawn
11:50
games and this is what they stated Intel
11:52
is selling defective 13th 14th gen CPUs
11:55
and the failure rate for affected
11:57
processors is nearly 100% Despite All
12:00
released micr code bios and firmware
12:02
updates the problem remains unresolved
12:04
and over the last 3 to 4 months we have
12:06
observed that CPUs initially working
12:08
well deteriorate over time eventually
12:10
failing shockingly the game studio also
12:12
says that the failure rate we have
12:14
observed from our own testing is nearly
12:17
100% indicating it's only a matter of
12:19
time before affected CPUs fail when it
12:22
comes to this stage where game server
12:23
managers and server providers are
12:25
reporting to the media that we're also
12:27
experiencing failures they're switching
12:29
to AMD and that they're going to stop
12:31
Distributing Intel 13th and 14th gen
12:34
systems Al together this really isn't a
12:36
good look for Intel at all and you know
12:38
being an average consumer for a company
12:40
like Intel and Nvidia you often think
12:42
that sure the marketing is loud but
12:43
gamers are a small portion of the
12:45
revenue compared to the data center so
12:47
when issues occur with Gamers they're
12:49
going to be a bit complacent and you
12:51
know the urgency won't be there but now
12:53
that we're dealing with situations where
12:54
it's a business to business and not just
12:57
an individual hopefully this Sparks some
12:59
sort of urgency with them because these
13:01
are clients that need 100% stability or
13:03
their operations cannot work along with
13:05
that these clients are ordering parts in
13:07
masses in large volumes so when they say
13:09
they're going to be switching to a
13:10
competitor that's going to hurt but even
13:12
for regular consumers I don't want to
13:14
undermine them as this shouldn't be
13:16
happening period now I'm not saying that
13:18
the user can't be expected to do any
13:20
configuring on their own obviously basic
13:21
stuff like setting your XMP and the BIOS
13:24
things like that are a given but when
13:25
you have extensive guidelines that
13:26
you're telling the user to check such as
13:29
power limits developers are having to
13:31
make tutorials on how to go to the BIOS
13:33
and change the multiplier then you have
13:34
a problem that needs to be addressed you
13:36
shouldn't have to do any of that in
13:38
order to make your system work if you're
13:39
someone who works a full-time job you
13:41
come home and have to take care of
13:43
household errands perhaps you have a
13:44
family and have kids that you need to
13:46
tend to then you finally get an hour or
13:48
two of play time but then oh wait your
13:50
system is crashing and now you've just
13:52
wasted whatever time you had left for
13:54
your leisure because you got a
13:55
troubleshoot that is a very infuriating
13:57
experience what's upsetting about all
13:59
this is that these problems have been
14:01
reported for almost 2 years now and they
14:03
really started to gain a lot of traction
14:04
earlier this year and despite all of
14:06
that inel Still Remains quiet about the
14:08
whole ordeal I get it that they're still
14:10
probably working on deducing what the
14:12
root cause is and they don't want to
14:14
make any statements that are wrong or
14:15
mislead people more importantly for them
14:17
they just probably don't want to cause a
14:19
panic with their shareholders however at
14:20
the very least they can come out and say
14:22
that in the meantime we're here to help
14:23
out for those who need it they have been
14:25
working with motherboard manufacturers
14:27
and I've been seeing frequent updates
14:28
from so that's good though I have seen
14:30
comments from users who stated that
14:32
despite applying those profiles and
14:34
settings their problems are still there
14:36
and the next course of action was to RMA
14:38
now when it comes to rmas I've been
14:40
hearing some mixed reviews about that as
14:42
well some folks said that they sent in
14:44
their chips and got Replacements uh
14:45
pretty easily whereas some have reported
14:48
their claims have been denied by Intel
14:50
Hardware times reported on this recently
14:52
and they are made two chips one was a
14:54
14700 K and the other was a 13900 KF
14:57
they said that the 14700 K was accepted
15:00
for the RMA while the 13900 KF was
15:03
denied because apparently the company
15:04
providing one RMA was already going
15:06
above and beyond that is some garbage BS
15:09
right there it doesn't matter how many
15:10
products you RMA for the client if
15:12
they're both deemed defective they
15:14
should be replaced there's no other
15:15
discussion to be had beyond that I found
15:17
this Reddit thread of a user who
15:19
reported having a gradually
15:20
deteriorating experience and eventually
15:22
had to Ary their CPU but we're told it
15:25
would take about 3 to 6 months for a
15:27
replacement or they could accept refund
15:29
which would be processed sooner but even
15:31
that was quite a hassle for them to get
15:33
and there are others in the comment
15:35
section talking about how inconsistant
15:37
their experiences have been where one
15:39
RMA was smooth and then their second RMA
15:40
was a nightmare this shouldn't be
15:42
happening especially when there's so
15:44
much evidence out there pointing towards
15:45
these processors having some inherent
15:47
issues I'm not sure if it's a
15:48
communication problem within the company
15:50
or a lack of training for their RMA
15:52
centers which sometimes operate through
15:54
a third party but right now it's of the
15:56
utmost importance that Intel treats
15:58
their customers right because this is
16:00
just going to have a bad knock on effect
16:02
and I'm already seeing it in the comment
16:04
sections where folks who have stated
16:06
they've been primarily using Intel for
16:08
many years are now looking to switch to
16:09
AMD so I guess AMD should be thankful
16:11
for Intel for the free marketing and
16:13
sales campaign in any case the more the
16:15
situation drags on without any further
16:18
official statement it's just going to
16:19
become worse for them for those who are
16:21
affected by the problems I'm honestly
16:23
hoping you guys can get them resolved I
16:25
know how much it sucks to have a machine
16:27
that just does not work right to your
16:29
expectations especially after spending
16:31
so much money on it for your work or for
16:33
your gaming activities but in any case
16:35
that's going to do it for this one you
16:37
guys I'm hoping this is resolved soon
16:39
but I've Got a Feeling we'll be
16:40
revisiting this topic again in the near
16:44
future if you guys found this video to
16:46
be informative and entertaining then
16:48
leave a like let me know your thoughts
16:50
and comments down below be sure to check
16:52
out the video description for cool links
16:54
and ways to support the channel such as
16:56
using my Amazon affiliate link and if
16:58
you're interested in seeing more content
17:00
like this then consider subscribing I
17:02
greatly appreciate it thank you guys so
17:04
much for watching take care and I'll see
17:06
you in the next one
17:08
[Music]


summarize in lists