I want to like talk kind of shift gears
0:02
for a minute and talk about you know
0:03
like I I didn't get a good sleep I don't
0:06
know for a couple nights in a row and I
0:08
you have deadlines and things to work on
0:09
I was feeling very amotivated as you
0:12
like to to say and so I was you of
0:14
course deep in some of your stuff and um
0:16
came across this nonsleep deep rest and
0:21
I had never heard of it I mean I'm sure
0:24
it's you know become popular since
0:25
you've talked about it but I would love
0:27
for you to talk about the nonsleep deep
0:30
bre nsdr and you know so sleep is
0:34
important for replenishing dopamine and
0:35
I didn't I didn't get that replenishment
0:38
of dopamine and so um some tools that
0:40
people can do again we're talking about
0:42
behavioral tools that we've just
0:44
mentioned a few but um this this non
0:47
this non-sleep deep breast is
0:48
interesting to me and how it can help
0:51
rep replenish the Baseline pools yeah so
0:55
um I first thought about and learned
0:57
about something called Yoga Nidra Yoga
0:59
Nidra means yoga sleep there's a
1:01
thousand-year-old or more um protocol
1:05
where you lie down and you try to stay
1:09
awake while remaining completely still
1:10
it involves some long exhale breathing
1:12
which we know slows the heart rate
1:14
through respiratory sinus arhythmia
1:16
which is a good thing it slows the heart
1:17
rate and it is it had long been used as
1:21
a way to offset sleep loss as well as to
1:25
just create states of replenished mental
1:27
and physical Vigor even if you slept
1:29
well
1:30
and there were a bunch of theories and
1:32
some actually interesting writings about
1:34
Yoga Nidra potentially allowing people
1:36
to um tap into intentions and things
1:40
like that okay great I learned about
1:42
this process by the way I went
1:45
and somewhere around 2015 2016 I decided
1:48
to shift a significant portion of my lab
1:50
from animal studies to human studies and
1:51
I was very interested in stress
1:53
mitigation and Trauma so I went visit a
1:56
trauma Treatment Center in Florida where
1:58
they were doing Yoga Nidra with people
2:00
every morning for an hour they would
2:01
wake up they would do this yoga Nedra
2:03
for an hour I decided to participate
2:05
once or twice and I found it to be
2:07
incredibly restorative because I wasn't
2:08
sleeping well on that trip and I would
2:10
come out of it thinking like I just felt
2:11
like I slept eight hours I only slept
2:13
four or five broken hours I do this one
2:15
hour of yoganidra and whoa I feel
2:17
amazing like this is wild this is a big
2:19
effect what is this go back to my
2:21
laboratory we're studying stress stress
2:23
mitigation techniques
2:26
and for whatever reason you know I
2:28
decided okay
2:30
we could talk about Yoga Nidra but it's
2:32
a little bit like talking about
2:33
meditation and then you have these name
2:35
which is you know a little complicated
2:37
for the scientific literature because
2:38
it's not clear exactly what it is and I
2:40
want to be very clear I'm not trying to
2:41
take anything away from Yoga Nidra or
2:43
those practices I have tremendous
2:45
respect for them but I came up with this
2:47
thing called nonsleep deep rest or nsdr
2:49
for short which a gives people some
2:52
sense of what they're doing and B strips
2:56
away the intentions and any kind of
2:58
mysticism whatsoever and and it really
3:00
just involves lying down for anywhere
3:01
from 10 to 30 minutes or an hour I
3:04
suppose and people are doing long exhale
3:07
breathing to slow their heart rate and
3:08
calm down doing a sort of body scan of
3:09
paying attention to different parts of
3:11
their body trying to stay
3:13
awake but if they fall asleep it's
3:16
okay we observe that it creates very
3:19
dramatic decreases in sympathetic
3:21
autonomic arousal AKA alertness and
3:24
places the brain into and body into kind
3:27
of a of a a shallow state of sleep not
3:30
surprising but a state that is unusual
3:33
and at least to my knowledge not
3:34
observed in other meditative states that
3:36
at least you know to my knowledge but to
3:38
be fair we didn't do neuroimaging of
3:40
this so we didn't have a lot of insight
3:42
into it I started digging around in the
3:44
literature and turns out there's a study
3:46
out of a medical hospital in Denmark
3:48
that had people doing Yoga Nidra for an
3:51
hour so very similar protocol but an
3:54
hour and using what's called pet
3:57
positron aiss tomography measuring the
3:59
ount of dopamine in the reserve pool in
4:03
a certain key area of the brain called
4:04
the striatum which is involved in the
4:05
generation of movement it's also part of
4:08
the reward and motivation pathway
4:10
although you know there a bunch of
4:12
different Pathways for dopamine so I
4:13
want to be clear about that we talked
4:14
about that earlier so what they observed
4:16
was really interesting they observed at
4:19
least by Patron emission
4:21
tomography that people who did this
4:23
1hour yoganidra protocol experienced a
4:26
60% above Baseline increase in dopamine
4:29
in these key brain areas just from this
4:32
hour of lying there completely still
4:34
trying to stay awake listening to this
4:36
script relaxation I think like this is
4:39
wild and then there's some other studies
4:40
showing that post Yoga Nidra performance
4:43
on memory tasks or other cognitive tasks
4:46
is improved I got very excited about
4:49
this and started whittling down the
4:52
non-sleep Deep breast protocol to what
4:54
we hope is the minimal effective dose
4:57
which is about 10 minutes of non-sleep
5:00
deep rest um we've done some exploration
5:03
of that in my lab currently there is a
5:06
collaboration Brewing between myself and
5:09
Dr Matthew Walker the author of why we
5:11
sleep the great sleep researcher the
5:13
great Matt Walker to explore what is
5:16
happening at a neural level using brain
5:18
Imaging during non-sleep de rest Matt
5:21
has some my understanding is some
5:24
insight or hypothesis I don't know you
5:26
know what exactly um is based on so I
5:28
want to be very clear this is all very
5:30
very preliminary that certain pockets of
5:32
the brain might be able to go undergo
5:35
sleep-like States in things like nsdr
5:37
Yoga Nidra that is not whole brain
5:40
sleeping um but it might be pockets of
5:42
brain areas um going to sleep like
5:44
States and but the whole purpose of
5:46
doing these experiments going forward
5:48
this collaboration is to figure out
5:49
exactly what's happening at a neural
5:51
level during non-sleep deep rest and how
5:53
closely it mimics sleep can you recover
5:56
sleep that you lost we don't know here's
5:57
what we do know subjectively and again
5:59
this is anic data if you will these are
6:02
people who have challenges falling
6:04
asleep often benefit from doing
6:06
non-sleep deep rest a 10-minute or 20-
6:08
minute protocol at any time of day or
6:10
night because it's teaching you to
6:11
self-direct your own
6:12
relaxation it's different than
6:14
meditation because meditation involves
6:17
focusing meditation is really a focusing
6:19
perceptual exercise think about your
6:22
third eye center focus on your breath
6:23
redirect your focus every time it drifts
6:25
meditation is a focus exercise and work
6:28
from Wendy Suzuki's lab at NYU has shown
6:30
that it can improve performance in
6:32
different cognitive tasks but the
6:34
traditional forms of meditation
6:36
sometimes can disrupt people's ability
6:37
to sleep well why well you're increasing
6:40
Focus capacity to fall asleep you need
6:42
to kind of defocus and let go of your
6:44
thoughts it's kind of interesting at the
6:45
beginning of all yoga needra scripts at
6:47
least the ones I've heard you hear um
6:50
you're going to move from thinking and
6:51
doing to being and feeling very new Agy
6:54
language but let's explore that thinking
6:57
and doing is about anticipation it's
6:59
about
7:00
memory to feeling and being you're going
7:02
into as much as possible a purely
7:04
sensory state right you're focusing on
7:06
just how things feel you're not thinking
7:09
into the Future Past you're just
7:10
thinking future or past you're just
7:12
feeling sensation in your body very
7:15
interesting and we so different than
7:18
than meditation different than hypnosis
7:20
hypnosis is a sort of meditation
7:22
designed to solve a specific problem
7:24
quit smoking relax less pain okay
7:27
meditation more of a focus exercise
7:28
non-sleep deep de rest is used to
7:30
restore mental and physical Vigor and to
7:32
teach you to relax yourself so it can be
7:34
done in the middle of the night if
7:35
you're having trouble sleeping it can be
7:37
done in the morning this is when I
7:38
typically like to do it I did it this
7:40
morning I woke up at 5: that's a little
7:42
early for me actually had a phone call
7:44
uh for about an hour and then I realized
7:47
oh goodness I got to get up soon I'm
7:49
going to take 30 minutes and do a 30
7:50
minute non-sleep deep rest or in this
7:52
case it was Yoga Nidra I come out of
7:54
that and I recall fa being in a pseudo
7:58
sleep State and I personally just feel
8:00
as if I've slept 8 hours and many people
8:02
report this similar sensation and again
8:05
it's subjective but I think if ever
8:07
there was a protocol that is useful for
8:09
people to explore given that it's safe
8:11
at zero cost and that sleep is so
8:13
important and mental and physical Vigor
8:15
are so important and the datea on
8:17
dopamine it's a 10 to 20 minute yoga
8:19
Nedra or nsdr script we've put a few of
8:22
those out there on YouTube and there are
8:23
a lot of them um out there I really like
8:25
if I want a female voice I'll listen to
8:27
the ones by commy Desai de s AI or Kelly
8:31
boy Bo y she's on the waking up app she
8:34
has terrific
8:35
nsdr um scripts and yoga need your
8:38
scripts and then there's some with my
8:39
voice um I can't bear to hear the sound
8:41
of my own voice believe it or not um so
8:44
we have a 10-minute and 20 minute one at
8:46
our Clips Channel and there are a bunch
8:48
of you um Spotify scripts and you can
8:51
find them out there
8:52
but to me it's one of the more
8:54
interesting aspects of protocols meaning
8:59
you know we have exercise protocols we
9:01
have nutrition protocols we got
9:03
deliberate heat exposure deliberate cold
9:04
exposure protocols what about protocols
9:06
for restoring mental and physical Vigor
9:09
that aren't meditation that aren't
9:11
hypnosis that aren't pharmacology and
9:13
what does that look like it's taking the
9:15
brain out of that anticipatory mode so
9:18
if we speculate go okay move from
9:20
thinking and doing to being in Feeling
9:22
Again very new Agy but what are we doing
9:24
we're deliberately shifting our thinking
9:27
away from the very types of thought and
9:30
action that deplete the dopamine Reserve
9:32
pool right and should we be surprised
9:36
that there's this significant increase
9:38
in dopamine in the striatum post
9:40
yoganidra or nsdr probably not because
9:43
you're not tapping into that neural
9:45
circuitry for a period of time it also
9:47
underscores the extent to which in our
9:49
Waking Life we are constantly in Gold
9:50
directed Behavior even when we don't
9:52
realize it and so um I find nsdr to be
9:57
among the most potent and important
9:58
tools or protocols that I've used in my
10:01
own life I've continued to do it about
10:04
once a day um any time of day or night
10:06
sometimes based on need to get more
10:08
sleep sometimes just as a practice and
10:10
even 10 minutes of nsdr for me I emerge
10:12
from that feeling completely different
10:14
and always better I did your your
10:17
10-minute one of your 10minute sdrs the
10:19
other day impact you um it made me feel
10:21
better and I did it like I said I hadn't
10:22
gotten sleep in in the last two nights
10:25
and good sleep it was like my my sleep
10:27
was disrupted and um
10:29
and so I I I stopped and I did did your
10:33
protocol and listening to your voice was
10:34
very soothing and um it also helped me
10:38
like I was able to shift right back into
10:39
my work and I don't know if it's because
10:42
I was understanding I was trying to read
10:44
you know how how it's affecting dopamine
10:46
replenishing dopamine and so I sort of
10:48
believed myself into it or if it just
10:50
actually worked right I mean so I hope
10:52
so it's also not a nap well I'm glad you
10:55
had a good experience with it if people
10:56
don't of course there's no obligation to
10:58
do it again it's um it's different than
11:00
a nap because it does not create sleep
11:03
inertia um Matt Walker's talked about
11:05
the fact that not everyone needs to nap
11:06
but a nap can improve cognitive
11:08
performance if you're going to nap don't
11:10
nap too late in the day or certainly not
11:11
if it's going to disrupt your nighttime
11:13
sleep a 20 minute nap seems to be the
11:16
limit Beyond which it can increase sleep
11:18
inertia you can wake up feeling groggy
11:20
have trouble waking up and then people
11:22
then will use caffeine and then it just
11:24
trops their sleep I like a 20 minute to
11:26
30 minute nap I'm guilty of sometimes
11:28
taking a 30-minute na but yoganidra is
11:31
being awake while deeply relaxed and
11:33
that's a very unusual State I also want
11:35
to just speculate a little bit further
11:39
um there's some interesting ideas out
11:41
there about how body still mind active
11:44
States can be very useful for cre
11:48
creativity um keep we had a couple of
11:50
guests on the podcast including Carl
11:51
diero he has a practice believe it or
11:53
not where he sits completely still
11:55
deliberately completely still and forces
11:58
himself to think in complet complete
11:59
sentences for about an hour at night as
12:02
a way to sort of practice um thinking um
12:06
very interesting body still mind active
12:08
then Rick Rubin when he was on the
12:10
podcast not a scientist but um and we we
12:13
I'm fortunate to be friends with Rick he
12:15
does something
12:16
similar um what is a part of life where
12:21
the brain is very active the body is
12:24
completely still and is known to be
12:26
associated with ideas learning and
12:27
creativity rapid ey mov sleep so there's
12:30
something about the body being still and
12:32
the mind remaining active that may lend
12:35
itself to certain types of cognitive
12:38
effort or cognitive Endeavors I don't
12:40
know this hasn't really been explored
12:42
using neuroimaging um but I'm excited
12:44
about this as a as a potential tool and
12:47
non-sleep deep rest In Yoga Nidra again
12:49
the writing about it tends to be from
12:51
these more ancient
12:53
Traditions um but starts off talking
12:56
about replenishment of sleep learning
12:59
how to relax Etc but remember they were
13:01
doing this at a trauma treatment clinic
13:04
and I asked them why you know is it to
13:06
just calm everybody down make sure they
13:07
get enough sleep and they said no we're
13:08
doing so much work here trying to get
13:11
people to remap their relationship to
13:13
traumas and all and they were really
13:16
ahead of their time in understanding
13:17
that the actual rewiring of neural
13:19
circuits occurs during sleep so they
13:21
want to maximize the amount of deep rest
13:23
that people were getting to maximize the
13:25
rewiring but also that in these states
13:28
of Deep deep rest you also replenish the
13:31
ability to lean into what really is the
13:32
hard work of traum of trauma therapy
13:35
it's not easy and does the brain rewire
13:40
itself more readily if we're doing nsdr
13:42
Yoga Nidra I don't know I suspect yes
13:46
based on the similarity to sleep but
13:48
that's one of the things that Matt and I
13:49
would like to explore can it replace
13:51
sleep that one's lost can it enhance the
13:54
speed of learning can it reinforce
13:56
learning in the same day because there's
13:58
this thing called the first night effect
13:59
where the first night of sleep after a
14:01
of learning is really critical for
14:03
consolidating that learning but let's
14:05
face it sometimes we don't get that
14:06
night of sleep so can you wake up the
14:07
next morning and do a 30-minute nsdr and
14:09
consolidate learning sometimes that
14:11
learning is new information sometimes
14:13
that learning is The Dumping of
14:14
information you don't want right this is
14:16
why people who are rapid eye movement
14:17
sleep deprived often carry forward a lot
14:20
of emotionality that frankly they would
14:22
like to unload then you get a great
14:24
night's sleep and you're like that thing
14:25
that was bothering me that's like
14:26
nothing now right so rap an eye movement
14:28
sleep is is incredibly important and
14:30
Yoga Nidra AK um nsdr I should say nsdr
14:34
is a buildout from Yoga Nidra In
14:36
fairness
14:38
um I think is a super powerful technique
14:41
and you know 10 minutes is pretty minor
14:43
you know investment

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