hello hi alone hi hi hi everyone and big thanks for taking the timeon you know we've been trying to get you on the podcast since uh we started it two years ago so we are super pleased that we that we have you on and indeed on your xplatform how cool yeah uh it's pretty cool yeah I mean you have like lots of people from all around the world uh simultaneously do effectively a real-time podcast and uh it works pretty well very good well we have so much to talk about so uh love to kick off with with AI um now what's your take on where we are in the AI race just now wow that's a long answer um there's there's so much happening in AI is the fastest advancing technology that I've ever seen of any kind and I've seen a lot of Technology um you barely a week goes by without some new announcement so uh and and if you look at the amount of uh AI Hardware the computers coming online that are dedicated to AI that is increasing what looks like at least by a factor of 10 every year if not every six to n months so when you combine the hardware um Coming online really order of magnitude increase every you know call at least every nine months um and uh many many software breakthroughs uh if if you look at that that curve it looks insane so I think we'll um my my my guess is that we we'll have ai that is smarter than any any one human probably to around the end of next year um and then AI the total amount of sort of sentient compute of AI I think will probably exceed all humans in 5 years what what is the what is the race about just now is it algorithm is it people is it computing power what what is it about just now is it the supply of chips just what is it yeah last year it was uh chip constrainted um and the hardware deployment we break it down into the three areas of people um data and Hardware I'm starting with Hardware uh last year it was about a chift supply people could not get enough um Nvidia chips particularly um this year it's starting to transition to a voltage Transformer Supply so actually getting enough voltage Transformers uh put in place so my sort of very Niche joke is Transformers for Transformers because a lot of the AI That's run is called a Transformer so you need Transformers to run Transformers um and then next in the if you look out a year or two or certainly 3 years um it's just electricity availability so that's those those constraints in the hardware side um so many of the smart World smartest people are are doing AI people that would have done physics before in fact or had have done physics for example have moved into AI because it's just the fastest moving field so we're seeing a lot of the best talent a lot of the smartest humans going into to Ai and then uh we see along with that algorithmic breakthroughs um and then then you start hitting the the wall with the the data problem um so the you know you can fit all books ever written um just the text the the text in compressed form uh on one hard drive or call one one computer um so when you when you're looking at like so called tokens to train on yeah uh and you you still think of like all the books ever written in every in in all languages by All Humans sounds like a lot certainly it's far more than any one human could could ever read um it actually is a small it's a small number of train training tokens it's just not enough so then you you start having to look at all the videos have I created um you know all the podcasts all the everything um and and you start even running out of data there well hopefully they hopefully they will include this podcast uh that definitely will include this podcast what's the biggest challenge you have with uh with xai well X is still relatively new so it's not um you know uh like the limiting factor right now is just training our Gro version two model which should be we think better than GPD 4 um and that's we're hoping to complete that in May so that's that's training right now so it's just really we're just trying to get enough gpus online to train it fast enough to get that done in May um which I think probably will happen um and then and that's with uh roughly 20,000 h100s uh and and doing I think very efficient training then the next step would be for grock 3 which would be I guess G55 or Beyond uh would you know requires uh 100,000 Nvidia h100s training coherently so that's you know a half order of magnitude basically more training um and then you really start to have running into this data problem where you you have to either create synthetic data or use real world video those the the two sources of kind of like unlimited data uh synthetic data and real world video which I should say Tesla has a pretty big advantage in real world video um T has by far the most real world video of anyone yeah you've got a huge library that so when do you think so when do you think we'll see proper AGI well it depends on how you define AGI if you define AGI as smarter than the smartest human I think it's probably end of next year like like within two years um but but that's that there's still there's still a pretty big leap beyond that to say smer than the the machine augmented human Collective so like is it smarter than all humans working together uh who are also using computers to augment their output and that that I think is probably five years away one one way to look at it is is is to try to assess um like roughly what is the ratio of digital to biological compute um and the so biological compute are all the human brains that are thinking and that's that's a pretty static that's that's not hi sorry hi sorry I don't know where we had some be back online here yeah I think somebody I think somebody hacked us we must have some we must have some enemies um last question on um on AI any your thoughts on regulation and um how it should be structured well I I think we probably do need some sort of regulatory authority to look at the safety of AI um just as we have regulatory authorities in other Arenas to um you know o oversee aircraft and the safety of aircraft and cars and and other things you know medication so uh the rate at which AI is progressing is is fast is faster than probably any regulatory agency can keep up with um but but I do have a comment on what I think is very important for achieving safe AI which is that uh it's very important to train the AI to be as truthful as possible um and not to uh yeah just to be as truthful as possible um the I think you can get some very dangerous things when you program an AI to be politically correct think that things that may seem uh relatively innocuous now but will not be so in in the future if AI has immense power you can take the Google Gemini example where it it refused to publish to produce a picture of George Washington as a white man and and any in fact any historical figure would automatically be made diverse um because it's been programmed to insist on diversity which sounds you know perhaps okay at first but not if the AI has so much power that it can actually enforce diversity and decide there's too many of one kind of people or too many of one sex and kill off just just kill off enough until the the diversity number is is what it's programmed to believe is correct but don't you think this will be sorted out in the next version no we don't think so where is China where is China now in a relative to the US next verion no they'll make it more subtle okay and less obvious but it will still be there okay well we'll see but where where is China where do you where is China now in I relative to us um I I don't know exactly where China is uh except there are a lot of very smart people in China um and they it won't be they won't be far behind the rest of the world or far behind the US um I mean the AI a right now is very concentrated in San Francisco and London um and then you know there's there's you know a lot happening in in China but I I'm I don't have insight into what they're doing uh except that they I'm confident they will not be far behind uh what is developed in the west yeah um so but but but mark my words the if if uh if we do not program an AI to be as truthful as possible that that is where it will go AR that is where the danger lies yeah mve moving tare moving to to Tesla um is is the EV conversion now going slower than you had expected just where is the speed need of conversion now relative to your expectations I think it's going quite fast actually especially in Norway um absolutely well it's pretty much all there is is your your Teslas yeah there's a lot of Teslas in Norway it's crazy thanks I once again like to thank Norway for the support of electric vehicles um so much appreciated time so and I think it's we will the that that electric that all vehicles will go fully electric uh it's only a matter of time um that includes aircraft ultimately and boats um obviously trains the only thing that is ironically difficult to where you can't really make it electric is Rockets because you need you can't get away from um having to expel Mass uh sort of Newton's thirdd law um but but all cars will be electric it's only matter time and we'll look back on combustion cause in the same way that we look at back on uh steam engines um that that it was it was inevitable that there would be internal combustion cars and that and it just as inevitable that all cars will go electric um and um there will be some e and you know so like it going to be a completely straight up line there will be some uh e and flow in how how far electric cars go but that but the ultimate um victory of electric cars is inevitable um and and I think the sooner we get there the better yeah how do you see the Chinese competition here now we generally find that the companies in China are the most competitive in the world and certainly in uh electric vehicles or cars in general the Chinese car companies are by far the most competitive um yeah that's where where we find the most toughest toughest compe competitive challenges they make great cars and they work very hard so when you ride in one of the Chinese cars what do you think I mean you're an engineer you know what about it what do you what do you think I haven't R I have not ridden in one lately but uh because they're not all available here you know in the US or very few are available in the US um some are available in Europe um but from what my team tells me they are very good now you are moving into India here as well in terms of production what are your what are your thoughts here sorry moving into where to India Oh India yeah uh yeah I think it's you know India is sort of a it's India is now the most populous country in the world you know the biggest population um and I think there we India just should have electric cars just like every other country has electric cars um and um yeah so it's a natural progression to provide electric Tesla electric vehicles in India yeah uh moving moving out out in space um what what would it take to be self-sufficient at Mars to be self-sufficient Mars it's really about the the total tonnage that is delivered to the surface of Mars um so you can say like well um I I think it's probably on the order of a million tons maybe it maybe more but somewhere between probably a million tons and 10 million tons are needed to make Mars self-sufficient and how many Rockets is that well I gave a presentation on this recently if people look at my my recent uh SpaceX talk but if you if you have uh 100 really uh if you have 100 tons per flight you need 10,000 flights to get to a million million tons um and that's 100 tons landed to the surface of Mars so in order to get 100 tons land to the surface of Mars you need 500 t five times that number in Earth orbit um so we do a lot of orbital refilling um so launching sort of uh Rockets uh tanker ships over and over again that that would replenish the propellant of the ships that would go to Mars um and then You' need on roughly on order of 10,000 of them uh to get to a million tons um and uh but we we plan to do that that that's uh that's we we think we can get that done within 20 years really so and when do you think so when do you think we'll be there for the first time first first uh well the first Starship that will land on Mars which obviously will not have people at first I think it's probably within about 5 years um and then it would probably launch several ships and just confirm that they can land okay on Mars um we'll also be doing the moon simultaneously with that so uh go taking well I think I think we'll get people back to the Moon I should say within 5 years and we'll get uh uncrewed ships landed on mons within 5 years and and then we be building up the production rate um and improving the design of the booster in the ship so um so in the first people on Mars I think within seven years or so 7 to n years um and from from there we need to rapidly increase we need massive numbers of ships going and Earth and Mars Only are in the same quadrant of the solar system roughly for six months every two years or or at least it's only possible to really transfer efficiently um from Earth to Mars I say every six months but really there's about there's a couple months where where it's ideal every 26 months um so every two years you would see a basically a fleet depart Mars I I think we quite a spectacular thing to see a thousand ships depart from Mars all at once like Battle Star Galactica what kind of new technology do we need before we'll be self-sufficient there actually I think we have all the tech we already know all the technology that's necessary for that it just needs we just need to build so no new physics is needed for this why is it so important for you I think it's important for Consciousness in general um so if if we wish to maximize the lifespan of Consciousness then being a multiplet species will result in a much longer uh existence of Consciousness Consciousness than if we on one planet if you're on one planet we're simply biting our time until there's eventually a Calamity it could be soon it could be a long time but eventually something will happen it could be you know global thermonuclear war it could be simply That civilization merely subsides C our civilization may not die with a bang it may die with a whimper just just gradually falling into obsolescence but if we're a multi-planet species then we've got two planets and yeah and they can support each other um and we can go beyond two planets ultimately to the moons of Jupiter to the to the uh um you beyond to the the outer parts of the solar system and ultimately to other star systems so this tiny this tiny candle of Consciousness that we have in this vast Darkness can be extended um and Amplified and we're just far more likely to uh survive as for for Consciousness to survive if we are a multiplet species you don't think it' be better to use all these resources and try to sort out Earth well just to put this into perspective the amount of resources I'm talking about for making life multiplanetary would be less than 1% of all resources on Earth so really can think of it as resource allocation do you think it's worth spending half a percent of Earth Resources to ensure uh that we have redundancy in Consciousness and that we extend Consciousness Beyond Mars to other planets to to Mars and other planets and ultimately other star systems um and then also take into account the fact that there are certain inevit there are certain things we simply cannot aoid on Earth um like is it within your power of mind to stop World War I I don't think so no if it happens um and if we have Global ther nulear Warfare our technology level will drop to the stern age um and we may never survive and then there are we maybe get we may get hit like by a comet like the dinosaurs and um you know if the dinosaurs had spaceships they they' probably still be around um so and then if if you wait long enough the Earth the the sun will continue to expand and eventually engulf Earth and destroy it and destroy all life so just to give it amount a certain amount of time no matter what you do on Earth no matter how careful you are um Earth will life all life on Earth will die that it will happen is a certainty it's a big Gloom of this no um so um on a slightly uh less gloomy note uh X Twitter yeah um what is your vision now what do you how do you see the the vision of x i goal of X is to be the best source of Truth on the internet um and I think we're making a good you know good progress there I mean this it's we to be like I call the everything app like if anything you want to do you can do on the xplatform um whether it's text audio video uh payments Financial stuff um Communications of all kinds um and then but but then also where there is publicly disseminated information is to be the best source of Truth um and I think it I think it already is that um now people may say oh there's some piece of misinformation disinformation I say yes but look look at the replies the replies correct that misinformation and look at Community notes and the and how good the batting average of community notes is it's extremely good it's by far the best factchecking system on the internet um so and and and a lot of people still labor under the illusion that the the the Legacy newspapers that they read are actually true there's so much nonsense in them I mean Nico how many times when do you read an article in a newspaper where you know the circumstances of what that article is and how often is it spot on no of course it's uh normally no no of course we all know it's normally wrong but but how do you look not sure but how do you look at the situation now for instance with with with Russia uh you know the work Russia does in Germany with fake accounts on it's pretty pretty huge uh activity right I mean we don't see a lot of Russian activity to be frank um on the system um so we we see very little um we do see we do see a lot of lot of attempts to influence things but they seem to be coming from from the West not from from Russia right what about um what about things like the latest developments in in Brazil and yeah sure yeah so the the uh we we kept getting these demands from um uh this uh Judge Alexander um that's his that's his name on Twitter Alexander um and there would be to suspend accounts um immediately we're given typically two hours to suspend an account or face massive fines um and the the final stoies we were we being given demands to suspend setting setting members of the parliament and major journalists and moreover we could not tell them that it this was at the behest of uh as under Morales we had to pretend that it was due to our rules of service and that was the final straw and we said no now um when you when you bought Twitter um now renamed X did you expect that you would end up in these type of situations so it's is all unexpected well I knew it wouldn't be just a total B of roses um you know and it's talk I wouldn't um no I mean I thought it would be since we're just like rigorously trying to pursue the the the goal of being the most accurate and truthful place in the internet and that that doesn't mean that what is said is always true or accurate but is it is perhaps another way to frame it is as the least inaccurate place on the internet do you do you secretly do you secretly think this is a bit fun it's fun yeah yeah it's fun at times it's stressful at times and it's fun at times um but overall we're trying to serve the people of Earth um and and and this is sort of an es sort of maybe an esoteric way of viewing it but um to try to be kind of like the the group consciousness of Earth so you can think of like if each person is like a neuron contributing to like the collective brain of Earth and you want to try to minimize the noise and maximize the signal of every neuron that's connected to the the X Network that that's basically what is what is the collective will of of humanity and and how and and and how to yeah just serve the collective will of humanity and serve the greater good that that's our goal um now you know there's there's definitely going to be people who want to manipulate that information and so we have to fight that and try to have uh you know be be the most accurate place as to the best of our ability and have it be kind of a Marketplace of ideas where people can propose ideas and you know debate them and um I think so far it's working reasonably well in that regard um now people that don't like the truth will not like those ex or if they want to manipulate things they will not like it but only but only a few years ago you were you were a guy um producing electric vehicles now you are you know through starlink you've had some you know I mean some big impact in in Ukraine uh with Twitter you are kind of into some issues in uh you know Brazil India Turkey um you know you becoming like a real geopolitical force and a really important one how do you how do you look at that well like I said I'm really I'm trying to take the set of actions that maximize the probability that the future is good um I mean we have to keep civilization going onward and upward as much as possible and um and try to minimize the civilizational threats that occur um like you know we we we can't get to Mars if civilization collapses it's not going to happen so um you know we've got to we've got to keep um keep civilization going um and I think we should view our civilization as being much more fragile than we think we kind of take for granted it's always going to be there but actually if you study history you realize that there arise you know there's RIS P civilizations um I mean I was I was reading in depth about the ancient samarians um who were arguably the first civilization if you call civilization like writing and stuff you know they're the first to writing um and uh but eventually they died out and they were gone so and then nobody could read their writing at all and and they they just faded out as a civilization um but they're pretty impressive in their time and the ancient Egyptians the same thing um and uh you know one sort of one after another uh ancient Greek had it Greece had its day uh you know China and India had will have incredibly impressive populations but there's been EVs and flows in the CH China and Indian civilizations over the the the aons you know the bennia as well um so you know I I guess I'm just trying to take this this set of the steps that um increase uh the scope and scale of Consciousness that's that's what I'm trying to do it's but it's not that I'm trying to have a put a political thumb on the scale or anything like that um but I I think I'm trying to have the political will go where the people want it to go you know you you mentioned some um some uh really smart people here and um kind of just moving t a bit here to copal culture now you manage a lot of geniuses in your in your companies what is the key to manage really smart people you think I don't I don't think I manage smart people they manage themselves um I I think you well I guess with really smart people you know I don't really think of of it like managing them I think that if somebody's very smart and talented they they can go anywhere and do anything any time like if they they they don't have to work with me they could go anywhere so I I really just say like look this is the the goal we're after and this is what we're trying to achieve and do you agree with this goal and if you do then let's try to get it done um and um you know provide my opinion along the way and but I it's very rare for me to actually sort of insist on a on on a particular thing once in a while I'll say look guys you just got to trust me on on this one we got to do this thing and if it turns out to be a bad decision you we can can all hold that against me in the future but you have an incred are for detail right I mean when we read the is book um it's pretty clear that you I mean you really are are deep into detail and know what you talk about so how do you how do you balance this um kind of micromanagement of some areas and then delegate other areas I wouldn't I wouldn't call it micromanagement um it's just insisting on atttention to detail that um if you're trying to make a perfect product you must have attention to atten attention to details essential um and I haven't actually read the Ison book you should it's very good actually I loved it well I I asked alter Ison if I should read it and he said I shouldn't um so so then said I shouldn't read it so okay well I'll um I'll ask you some questions from the book then they you he talks about you know you the kind of a hardcore and Ultra Hardcore culture what is an Ultra Hardcore culture I guess it's work I mean it's working culture right I mean how how I mean Ultra hard work how hard is that well when things get really intense you're basically just working every waking hour and how and how long can you do that for I've done that for well continuous for sometimes like a few years what does it what does it do to you it really it's pain um and and every waking out maybe is an exaggeration because there are a few hours um obviously with friends and family and and critical other things um but 100 hour weeks would be I I've done many many stretches of 100 hour weeks like true 100 hour weeks um where roughly six hours per day is sleeping um I would not recommend that this is not that's for emergencies you know it's not uh all the time um you know during very difficult times at Tesla I've had to do that and at sometimes at the beginning of my earlier startups I did that where I just wouldn't leave the office I would just sleep under my desk and just work seven days a week um sometimes it's necessary for success or or to avoid failure um but but do you you do you enjoy being in this crisis mode no I don't it sucks okay no I I don't want to be there it's pain but sometimes it's the difference between success and failure oh when you make decisions how important is speed he just gave me an idea which is um I'm going to invite the uh Judge Alexander R uh to do a spaces and then he can explain why what I'm doing is bad and and and maybe he's right I challenge I challenge him to a spaces sounds good yeah but what about speed when you make when when you make decisions how how important is speed and how do you how do you balance analysis with your gutfield I think the the the best offense and defense is speed if you think of something like the SR71 Blackbird it really had almost no defenses except accelerate and it was never shut down even even once like I think over 3,000 missiles were shot at the sof 71 black boat and none hit and and really what it did was just go faster so the the power of speed is uh underappreciated as a competitive Dimension um is that why um you know space expence has been so successful because you've been mean and lean as an organization and fast I think speed speed is uh definitely a factor I should say you want to go in the case of a company you you you need to be a vector not a scaler so it can't be you you need to go at high speed in the right direction sure so I can't just so and no company's going to be going in the right direction all the time so you have to do course Corrections like a guided missile you qued course Corrections um and uh but in the case of SpaceX it's like okay our goal is to extend Humanity beyond Earth um and we didn't even know how to even frame the question correctly like what what which knew that that was the General goal um we didn't know what pent we' use or what the raw materials would be or for the how would the rocket be built how would it be designed what's actually important um and uh you know so for example going from our Falcon architecture which is um uses refined jet fuel and liquid oxygen um in a um open cycle gas generator architecture engine to a to Starship which is a uh liquid methane liquid oxygen um uh propellant uh in a staged combustion very high pressure engine um that that that's that's a big architectural change um but we didn't know that we we needed to make that architectural change until we're pretty far down the road like about halfway took us about 10 years to figure out that was even the right architecture now we're confident it is and we're confident that uh making life M multiplanetary can be hi hi hacking us badly today I'm wondering who it is yeah this is odd it's I haven't had this issue in spes for a while no um just um we were on um uh risk taking and so on um now um I think SpaceX is one of the best example I know about uh what we call failing well right learning from mistakes and moving on um what generally how do you how do you look at mistakes well I mean which which ones do you Toler and which ones don't you tolerate well I I think I don't really think of that way uh you know the first three flights of SpaceX failed um the fourth one succeeded and if if the fourth one had not succeeded we would have gone bankrupt we would had no money left so it was very close call um but since then space XX has done very well it's now the the falcon you know knock on wood is the most reliable rocket in the world um and launches about every um 2 to 3 days um now um last question on risk what are the types of risk you would not want to take uh well I I think in terms of risks you don't you you don't want to take risks that where if if you only want to take bet the company risks if they're absolutely necessary so they've been a few times where saying the with Tesla we we just had no choice but to vet the company because if we if we're Inc if we're doing a new vehicle program that is uh an order of magnitude larger than the past one then we're by we're just unequivocally betting the company because the new vehicle would be 90% of production so going from uh the original Roadster to the model S original Roadster was only you know about 600 6 700 per year then Model S was 20,000 per year and um and then model 3 is sort of half sort of half a million per year um model y over a million per year so these are bet the company vehicles but the the the reason we could do for example the sabot truck which was kind of a a radical new design was because it wasn't a bet the company decision so I was like okay look let's try something I want to try something totally crazy uh it's like what what truck with Blade Runner Drive um except the when you're going to drive on was yeah I think it would be perfect for M um but like we could try something that where there's some chance that people might not like it um but it's it's radical and new and it's aesthetic aesthetically it's not derivative it doesn't look like anything else on the road um whereas all the other sort of pickup trucks look like vague copies of one another um they we could afford to take a chance on failure say like and talk it up to you know well we tried you know we Tred to do something interesting but but actually by the way cyber truck's doing great um so uh but one of the things that I think is important for Innovation is that you do accept failure like like necessarily you have to always look at the incentive structure of an organization and say um you know is is is that is that organization properly incenting innovation um and with if you do Innovation you're necessarily going to Uncharted Territory so there going to be some mistakes they going to be some failures um and you have you have to like like actually like for for SpaceX uh rocket engine development like I keep telling the team look if we're not occasionally blowing up an engine on the test stand we're not trying hard enough you know um absolutely absolutely how important are the P how important is research and phds and that kind of stuff I think of had seen somewhere you you think most phds are useless well I think most PhD thesis are useless which I think is actually objectively true if you look at how many PhD you look at all how many phds are created every year and how many of those papers are actually used in anything yeah um then objectively most PhD PCS are have very low utility or maybe zero um cuz nobody uses them um or so once in a while you get something that is spectacular but it's pretty rare um perhaps something more useful um Ison in the book that you haven't read uh talks about your love for uh gaming in particular like strategic ability gaming and I've been thinking quite a lot about it um what have you learned from from those games and have have that learning and wisdom been helpful when you have been planning your companies yeah I it's hard to say exactly what I've learned from video games except that I I do like playing video games as if I want to take my mind off work I'll typically play a very hard video game such as such as which one well over the years there been many many different video games um so you know when I was a little kid it was like you know pong and little tank games and things and um and but if you take a game like for example Civ ization it's actually quite a good um it tells you how how civilizations are formed like I remember I remember playing the original civilization with the technology tree and and how you invent different things you'd like invent literacy and uh you know invent democracy and invent gun gunpow all all these things like and you start to realize oh wow there's there are stages to technology like you can't um you know you can't actually get to democracy without literacy um and um you know so there's these these stages of of Technology development or stages of ideas that uh you know that's that's a helpful framework for a company um and I guess in in like like I say in recent years there was there's a game I played that was um actually developed in Sweden called polyopia which is uh actually quite a good game um like a lot of people like playing chess but I think chess is not a not a great um there's not a lot of transfer learning from chess to the real world because in chess you've got only 64 squares uh it's a setpiece battle same pieces every time there are no terrain differences uh there's no technology tree uh there's no fog of War um but say a game like polyopia has all of those things uh random drain generation uh you know the differences in attack and defense bonuses depending on what type of terrain um you've got 16 tribes I think each with different abilities um you've got uh a a technology tree that you can choose to develop in different ways uh and you've got of course fog of War um so that I think is much more much closer to reality yeah yeah um um so I think politopia I mean I I was I was playing Diablo uh for a while pretty fun um Diablo as high level gets very complicated they you could call it like a a spreadsheet with a game attached um so so that's that's and I briefly got the the for about a day the world record in this Avatar of zir on on a four-person team of of clearing the the hardest level um which was you know not bad for someone who's like 53 basically we be 53 soon um there is still some uh twit element to it and um it's hard to beat kids at games with a twitch element um but yeah I like uh I find these games interesting if you can be fully em mosted in a game it's great yeah so we've had some we really have had some technical problems today unfortunately but um um Elon two questions on corporate governance if I may you know we are big shareholders in your group um H and the first one is um yeah we're back on sorry about these technical things I'm not quite sure where it comes from all right to um some last questions here um as you know we are big shareholders and uh made a Model A lot of money uh on our investment there seems to be some latency here okay I can hear you here okay good sounds good good to go sorry I can you I think everyone can hear me let's see thumbs up if you can hear me let's try again okay okay sounds good sounds good um now um what is the score now of in terms of the Union in Sweden and the collective bargaining actually I I think uh I think the storm has passed on that front I think things are reasonably good shape in Sweden um so uh yeah I think the are good um yeah overall yeah I feel pretty good about the future I mean you know there's going to be bumpy quarters from you know here and there but I think the long-term future of Tesla is extremely strong uh for example um let's see can you guys hear me shoot I'm back now yeah we might be getting it might this might be too overloaded or something yeah I'm I'm back on just so um yeah we met with uh we met with your chair last month so we we have some update but any any view on it why are you why why are you skeptical to collected I playing with a soundboard here hello hello hello okay I think I think we're good yeah last question for me um sorry I didn't hear the answer here because I was out but um we have covered this with with your chair but just last question here what do you want your legacy to be I I don't I don't mind if uh my legacy is accurate or inaccurate uh provided that I I di feeling that I've done the right thing for the future of Consciousness so just trying trying to trying to have this light of Consciousness last as long as possible and maybe understand more about the nature of the universe or simulation or whatever this is so um I have a philos philosophy of curiosity which is to understand the understand the universe understand the nature of the universe um or even what questions to ask kind of like that I I I would say I would subscribe to the Douglas Adams hitas guys of the Galaxy School of philosophy that we're trying to understand what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe okay I think that's a good place to end um for sure the life and life on on this um Planet would have been a lot more boring without you and um so I'm I'm glad to [ __ ] it up a little totally all right well was good talking hello hi alone hi hi hi everyone and big thanks for taking the timeon you know we've been trying to get you on the podcast since uh we started it two years ago so we are super pleased that we that we have you on and indeed on your xplatform how cool yeah uh it's pretty cool yeah I mean you have like lots of people from all around the world uh simultaneously do effectively a real-time podcast and uh it works pretty well very good well we have so much to talk about so uh love to kick off with with AI um now what's your take on where we are in the AI race just now wow that's a long answer um there's there's so much happening in AI is the fastest advancing technology that I've ever seen of any kind and I've seen a lot of Technology um you barely a week goes by without some new announcement so uh and and if you look at the amount of uh AI Hardware the computers coming online that are dedicated to AI that is increasing what looks like at least by a factor of 10 every year if not every six to n months so when you combine the hardware um Coming online really order of magnitude increase every you know call at least every nine months um and uh many many software breakthroughs uh if if you look at that that curve it looks insane so I think we'll um my my my guess is that we we'll have ai that is smarter than any any one human probably to around the end of next year um and then AI the total amount of sort of sentient compute of AI I think will probably exceed all humans in 5 years what what is the what is the race about just now is it algorithm is it people is it computing power what what is it about just now is it the supply of chips just what is it yeah last year it was uh chip constrainted um and the hardware deployment we break it down into the three areas of people um data and Hardware I'm starting with Hardware uh last year it was about a chift supply people could not get enough um Nvidia chips particularly um this year it's starting to transition to a voltage Transformer Supply so actually getting enough voltage Transformers uh put in place so my sort of very Niche joke is Transformers for Transformers because a lot of the AI That's run is called a Transformer so you need Transformers to run Transformers um and then next in the if you look out a year or two or certainly 3 years um it's just electricity availability so that's those those constraints in the hardware side um so many of the smart World smartest people are are doing AI people that would have done physics before in fact or had have done physics for example have moved into AI because it's just the fastest moving field so we're seeing a lot of the best talent a lot of the smartest humans going into to Ai and then uh we see along with that algorithmic breakthroughs um and then then you start hitting the the wall with the the data problem um so the you know you can fit all books ever written um just the text the the text in compressed form uh on one hard drive or call one one computer um so when you when you're looking at like so called tokens to train on yeah uh and you you still think of like all the books ever written in every in in all languages by All Humans sounds like a lot certainly it's far more than any one human could could ever read um it actually is a small it's a small number of train training tokens it's just not enough so then you you start having to look at all the videos have I created um you know all the podcasts all the everything um and and you start even running out of data there well hopefully they hopefully they will include this podcast uh that definitely will include this podcast what's the biggest challenge you have with uh with xai well X is still relatively new so it's not um you know uh like the limiting factor right now is just training our Gro version two model which should be we think better than GPD 4 um and that's we're hoping to complete that in May so that's that's training right now so it's just really we're just trying to get enough gpus online to train it fast enough to get that done in May um which I think probably will happen um and then and that's with uh roughly 20,000 h100s uh and and doing I think very efficient training then the next step would be for grock 3 which would be I guess G55 or Beyond uh would you know requires uh 100,000 Nvidia h100s training coherently so that's you know a half order of magnitude basically more training um and then you really start to have running into this data problem where you you have to either create synthetic data or use real world video those the the two sources of kind of like unlimited data uh synthetic data and real world video which I should say Tesla has a pretty big advantage in real world video um T has by far the most real world video of anyone yeah you've got a huge library that so when do you think so when do you think we'll see proper AGI well it depends on how you define AGI if you define AGI as smarter than the smartest human I think it's probably end of next year like like within two years um but but that's that there's still there's still a pretty big leap beyond that to say smer than the the machine augmented human Collective so like is it smarter than all humans working together uh who are also using computers to augment their output and that that I think is probably five years away one one way to look at it is is is to try to assess um like roughly what is the ratio of digital to biological compute um and the so biological compute are all the human brains that are thinking and that's that's a pretty static that's that's not hi sorry hi sorry I don't know where we had some be back online here yeah I think somebody I think somebody hacked us we must have some we must have some enemies um last question on um on AI any your thoughts on regulation and um how it should be structured well I I think we probably do need some sort of regulatory authority to look at the safety of AI um just as we have regulatory authorities in other Arenas to um you know o oversee aircraft and the safety of aircraft and cars and and other things you know medication so uh the rate at which AI is progressing is is fast is faster than probably any regulatory agency can keep up with um but but I do have a comment on what I think is very important for achieving safe AI which is that uh it's very important to train the AI to be as truthful as possible um and not to uh yeah just to be as truthful as possible um the I think you can get some very dangerous things when you program an AI to be politically correct think that things that may seem uh relatively innocuous now but will not be so in in the future if AI has immense power you can take the Google Gemini example where it it refused to publish to produce a picture of George Washington as a white man and and any in fact any historical figure would automatically be made diverse um because it's been programmed to insist on diversity which sounds you know perhaps okay at first but not if the AI has so much power that it can actually enforce diversity and decide there's too many of one kind of people or too many of one sex and kill off just just kill off enough until the the diversity number is is what it's programmed to believe is correct but don't you think this will be sorted out in the next version no we don't think so where is China where is China now in a relative to the US next verion no they'll make it more subtle okay and less obvious but it will still be there okay well we'll see but where where is China where do you where is China now in I relative to us um I I don't know exactly where China is uh except there are a lot of very smart people in China um and they it won't be they won't be far behind the rest of the world or far behind the US um I mean the AI a right now is very concentrated in San Francisco and London um and then you know there's there's you know a lot happening in in China but I I'm I don't have insight into what they're doing uh except that they I'm confident they will not be far behind uh what is developed in the west yeah um so but but but mark my words the if if uh if we do not program an AI to be as truthful as possible that that is where it will go AR that is where the danger lies yeah mve moving tare moving to to Tesla um is is the EV conversion now going slower than you had expected just where is the speed need of conversion now relative to your expectations I think it's going quite fast actually especially in Norway um absolutely well it's pretty much all there is is your your Teslas yeah there's a lot of Teslas in Norway it's crazy thanks I once again like to thank Norway for the support of electric vehicles um so much appreciated time so and I think it's we will the that that electric that all vehicles will go fully electric uh it's only a matter of time um that includes aircraft ultimately and boats um obviously trains the only thing that is ironically difficult to where you can't really make it electric is Rockets because you need you can't get away from um having to expel Mass uh sort of Newton's thirdd law um but but all cars will be electric it's only matter time and we'll look back on combustion cause in the same way that we look at back on uh steam engines um that that it was it was inevitable that there would be internal combustion cars and that and it just as inevitable that all cars will go electric um and um there will be some e and you know so like it going to be a completely straight up line there will be some uh e and flow in how how far electric cars go but that but the ultimate um victory of electric cars is inevitable um and and I think the sooner we get there the better yeah how do you see the Chinese competition here now we generally find that the companies in China are the most competitive in the world and certainly in uh electric vehicles or cars in general the Chinese car companies are by far the most competitive um yeah that's where where we find the most toughest toughest compe competitive challenges they make great cars and they work very hard so when you ride in one of the Chinese cars what do you think I mean you're an engineer you know what about it what do you what do you think I haven't R I have not ridden in one lately but uh because they're not all available here you know in the US or very few are available in the US um some are available in Europe um but from what my team tells me they are very good now you are moving into India here as well in terms of production what are your what are your thoughts here sorry moving into where to India Oh India yeah uh yeah I think it's you know India is sort of a it's India is now the most populous country in the world you know the biggest population um and I think there we India just should have electric cars just like every other country has electric cars um and um yeah so it's a natural progression to provide electric Tesla electric vehicles in India yeah uh moving moving out out in space um what what would it take to be self-sufficient at Mars to be self-sufficient Mars it's really about the the total tonnage that is delivered to the surface of Mars um so you can say like well um I I think it's probably on the order of a million tons maybe it maybe more but somewhere between probably a million tons and 10 million tons are needed to make Mars self-sufficient and how many Rockets is that well I gave a presentation on this recently if people look at my my recent uh SpaceX talk but if you if you have uh 100 really uh if you have 100 tons per flight you need 10,000 flights to get to a million million tons um and that's 100 tons landed to the surface of Mars so in order to get 100 tons land to the surface of Mars you need 500 t five times that number in Earth orbit um so we do a lot of orbital refilling um so launching sort of uh Rockets uh tanker ships over and over again that that would replenish the propellant of the ships that would go to Mars um and then You' need on roughly on order of 10,000 of them uh to get to a million tons um and uh but we we plan to do that that that's uh that's we we think we can get that done within 20 years really so and when do you think so when do you think we'll be there for the first time first first uh well the first Starship that will land on Mars which obviously will not have people at first I think it's probably within about 5 years um and then it would probably launch several ships and just confirm that they can land okay on Mars um we'll also be doing the moon simultaneously with that so uh go taking well I think I think we'll get people back to the Moon I should say within 5 years and we'll get uh uncrewed ships landed on mons within 5 years and and then we be building up the production rate um and improving the design of the booster in the ship so um so in the first people on Mars I think within seven years or so 7 to n years um and from from there we need to rapidly increase we need massive numbers of ships going and Earth and Mars Only are in the same quadrant of the solar system roughly for six months every two years or or at least it's only possible to really transfer efficiently um from Earth to Mars I say every six months but really there's about there's a couple months where where it's ideal every 26 months um so every two years you would see a basically a fleet depart Mars I I think we quite a spectacular thing to see a thousand ships depart from Mars all at once like Battle Star Galactica what kind of new technology do we need before we'll be self-sufficient there actually I think we have all the tech we already know all the technology that's necessary for that it just needs we just need to build so no new physics is needed for this why is it so important for you I think it's important for Consciousness in general um so if if we wish to maximize the lifespan of Consciousness then being a multiplet species will result in a much longer uh existence of Consciousness Consciousness than if we on one planet if you're on one planet we're simply biting our time until there's eventually a Calamity it could be soon it could be a long time but eventually something will happen it could be you know global thermonuclear war it could be simply That civilization merely subsides C our civilization may not die with a bang it may die with a whimper just just gradually falling into obsolescence but if we're a multi-planet species then we've got two planets and yeah and they can support each other um and we can go beyond two planets ultimately to the moons of Jupiter to the to the uh um you beyond to the the outer parts of the solar system and ultimately to other star systems so this tiny this tiny candle of Consciousness that we have in this vast Darkness can be extended um and Amplified and we're just far more likely to uh survive as for for Consciousness to survive if we are a multiplet species you don't think it' be better to use all these resources and try to sort out Earth well just to put this into perspective the amount of resources I'm talking about for making life multiplanetary would be less than 1% of all resources on Earth so really can think of it as resource allocation do you think it's worth spending half a percent of Earth Resources to ensure uh that we have redundancy in Consciousness and that we extend Consciousness Beyond Mars to other planets to to Mars and other planets and ultimately other star systems um and then also take into account the fact that there are certain inevit there are certain things we simply cannot aoid on Earth um like is it within your power of mind to stop World War I I don't think so no if it happens um and if we have Global ther nulear Warfare our technology level will drop to the stern age um and we may never survive and then there are we maybe get we may get hit like by a comet like the dinosaurs and um you know if the dinosaurs had spaceships they they' probably still be around um so and then if if you wait long enough the Earth the the sun will continue to expand and eventually engulf Earth and destroy it and destroy all life so just to give it amount a certain amount of time no matter what you do on Earth no matter how careful you are um Earth will life all life on Earth will die that it will happen is a certainty it's a big Gloom of this no um so um on a slightly uh less gloomy note uh X Twitter yeah um what is your vision now what do you how do you see the the vision of x i goal of X is to be the best source of Truth on the internet um and I think we're making a good you know good progress there I mean this it's we to be like I call the everything app like if anything you want to do you can do on the xplatform um whether it's text audio video uh payments Financial stuff um Communications of all kinds um and then but but then also where there is publicly disseminated information is to be the best source of Truth um and I think it I think it already is that um now people may say oh there's some piece of misinformation disinformation I say yes but look look at the replies the replies correct that misinformation and look at Community notes and the and how good the batting average of community notes is it's extremely good it's by far the best factchecking system on the internet um so and and and a lot of people still labor under the illusion that the the the Legacy newspapers that they read are actually true there's so much nonsense in them I mean Nico how many times when do you read an article in a newspaper where you know the circumstances of what that article is and how often is it spot on no of course it's uh normally no no of course we all know it's normally wrong but but how do you look not sure but how do you look at the situation now for instance with with with Russia uh you know the work Russia does in Germany with fake accounts on it's pretty pretty huge uh activity right I mean we don't see a lot of Russian activity to be frank um on the system um so we we see very little um we do see we do see a lot of lot of attempts to influence things but they seem to be coming from from the West not from from Russia right what about um what about things like the latest developments in in Brazil and yeah sure yeah so the the uh we we kept getting these demands from um uh this uh Judge Alexander um that's his that's his name on Twitter Alexander um and there would be to suspend accounts um immediately we're given typically two hours to suspend an account or face massive fines um and the the final stoies we were we being given demands to suspend setting setting members of the parliament and major journalists and moreover we could not tell them that it this was at the behest of uh as under Morales we had to pretend that it was due to our rules of service and that was the final straw and we said no now um when you when you bought Twitter um now renamed X did you expect that you would end up in these type of situations so it's is all unexpected well I knew it wouldn't be just a total B of roses um you know and it's talk I wouldn't um no I mean I thought it would be since we're just like rigorously trying to pursue the the the goal of being the most accurate and truthful place in the internet and that that doesn't mean that what is said is always true or accurate but is it is perhaps another way to frame it is as the least inaccurate place on the internet do you do you secretly do you secretly think this is a bit fun it's fun yeah yeah it's fun at times it's stressful at times and it's fun at times um but overall we're trying to serve the people of Earth um and and and this is sort of an es sort of maybe an esoteric way of viewing it but um to try to be kind of like the the group consciousness of Earth so you can think of like if each person is like a neuron contributing to like the collective brain of Earth and you want to try to minimize the noise and maximize the signal of every neuron that's connected to the the X Network that that's basically what is what is the collective will of of humanity and and how and and and how to yeah just serve the collective will of humanity and serve the greater good that that's our goal um now you know there's there's definitely going to be people who want to manipulate that information and so we have to fight that and try to have uh you know be be the most accurate place as to the best of our ability and have it be kind of a Marketplace of ideas where people can propose ideas and you know debate them and um I think so far it's working reasonably well in that regard um now people that don't like the truth will not like those ex or if they want to manipulate things they will not like it but only but only a few years ago you were you were a guy um producing electric vehicles now you are you know through starlink you've had some you know I mean some big impact in in Ukraine uh with Twitter you are kind of into some issues in uh you know Brazil India Turkey um you know you becoming like a real geopolitical force and a really important one how do you how do you look at that well like I said I'm really I'm trying to take the set of actions that maximize the probability that the future is good um I mean we have to keep civilization going onward and upward as much as possible and um and try to minimize the civilizational threats that occur um like you know we we we can't get to Mars if civilization collapses it's not going to happen so um you know we've got to we've got to keep um keep civilization going um and I think we should view our civilization as being much more fragile than we think we kind of take for granted it's always going to be there but actually if you study history you realize that there arise you know there's RIS P civilizations um I mean I was I was reading in depth about the ancient samarians um who were arguably the first civilization if you call civilization like writing and stuff you know they're the first to writing um and uh but eventually they died out and they were gone so and then nobody could read their writing at all and and they they just faded out as a civilization um but they're pretty impressive in their time and the ancient Egyptians the same thing um and uh you know one sort of one after another uh ancient Greek had it Greece had its day uh you know China and India had will have incredibly impressive populations but there's been EVs and flows in the CH China and Indian civilizations over the the the aons you know the bennia as well um so you know I I guess I'm just trying to take this this set of the steps that um increase uh the scope and scale of Consciousness that's that's what I'm trying to do it's but it's not that I'm trying to have a put a political thumb on the scale or anything like that um but I I think I'm trying to have the political will go where the people want it to go you know you you mentioned some um some uh really smart people here and um kind of just moving t a bit here to copal culture now you manage a lot of geniuses in your in your companies what is the key to manage really smart people you think I don't I don't think I manage smart people they manage themselves um I I think you well I guess with really smart people you know I don't really think of of it like managing them I think that if somebody's very smart and talented they they can go anywhere and do anything any time like if they they they don't have to work with me they could go anywhere so I I really just say like look this is the the goal we're after and this is what we're trying to achieve and do you agree with this goal and if you do then let's try to get it done um and um you know provide my opinion along the way and but I it's very rare for me to actually sort of insist on a on on a particular thing once in a while I'll say look guys you just got to trust me on on this one we got to do this thing and if it turns out to be a bad decision you we can can all hold that against me in the future but you have an incred are for detail right I mean when we read the is book um it's pretty clear that you I mean you really are are deep into detail and know what you talk about so how do you how do you balance this um kind of micromanagement of some areas and then delegate other areas I wouldn't I wouldn't call it micromanagement um it's just insisting on atttention to detail that um if you're trying to make a perfect product you must have attention to atten attention to details essential um and I haven't actually read the Ison book you should it's very good actually I loved it well I I asked alter Ison if I should read it and he said I shouldn't um so so then said I shouldn't read it so okay well I'll um I'll ask you some questions from the book then they you he talks about you know you the kind of a hardcore and Ultra Hardcore culture what is an Ultra Hardcore culture I guess it's work I mean it's working culture right I mean how how I mean Ultra hard work how hard is that well when things get really intense you're basically just working every waking hour and how and how long can you do that for I've done that for well continuous for sometimes like a few years what does it what does it do to you it really it's pain um and and every waking out maybe is an exaggeration because there are a few hours um obviously with friends and family and and critical other things um but 100 hour weeks would be I I've done many many stretches of 100 hour weeks like true 100 hour weeks um where roughly six hours per day is sleeping um I would not recommend that this is not that's for emergencies you know it's not uh all the time um you know during very difficult times at Tesla I've had to do that and at sometimes at the beginning of my earlier startups I did that where I just wouldn't leave the office I would just sleep under my desk and just work seven days a week um sometimes it's necessary for success or or to avoid failure um but but do you you do you enjoy being in this crisis mode no I don't it sucks okay no I I don't want to be there it's pain but sometimes it's the difference between success and failure oh when you make decisions how important is speed he just gave me an idea which is um I'm going to invite the uh Judge Alexander R uh to do a spaces and then he can explain why what I'm doing is bad and and and maybe he's right I challenge I challenge him to a spaces sounds good yeah but what about speed when you make when when you make decisions how how important is speed and how do you how do you balance analysis with your gutfield I think the the the best offense and defense is speed if you think of something like the SR71 Blackbird it really had almost no defenses except accelerate and it was never shut down even even once like I think over 3,000 missiles were shot at the sof 71 black boat and none hit and and really what it did was just go faster so the the power of speed is uh underappreciated as a competitive Dimension um is that why um you know space expence has been so successful because you've been mean and lean as an organization and fast I think speed speed is uh definitely a factor I should say you want to go in the case of a company you you you need to be a vector not a scaler so it can't be you you need to go at high speed in the right direction sure so I can't just so and no company's going to be going in the right direction all the time so you have to do course Corrections like a guided missile you qued course Corrections um and uh but in the case of SpaceX it's like okay our goal is to extend Humanity beyond Earth um and we didn't even know how to even frame the question correctly like what what which knew that that was the General goal um we didn't know what pent we' use or what the raw materials would be or for the how would the rocket be built how would it be designed what's actually important um and uh you know so for example going from our Falcon architecture which is um uses refined jet fuel and liquid oxygen um in a um open cycle gas generator architecture engine to a to Starship which is a uh liquid methane liquid oxygen um uh propellant uh in a staged combustion very high pressure engine um that that that's that's a big architectural change um but we didn't know that we we needed to make that architectural change until we're pretty far down the road like about halfway took us about 10 years to figure out that was even the right architecture now we're confident it is and we're confident that uh making life M multiplanetary can be hi hi hacking us badly today I'm wondering who it is yeah this is odd it's I haven't had this issue in spes for a while no um just um we were on um uh risk taking and so on um now um I think SpaceX is one of the best example I know about uh what we call failing well right learning from mistakes and moving on um what generally how do you how do you look at mistakes well I mean which which ones do you Toler and which ones don't you tolerate well I I think I don't really think of that way uh you know the first three flights of SpaceX failed um the fourth one succeeded and if if the fourth one had not succeeded we would have gone bankrupt we would had no money left so it was very close call um but since then space XX has done very well it's now the the falcon you know knock on wood is the most reliable rocket in the world um and launches about every um 2 to 3 days um now um last question on risk what are the types of risk you would not want to take uh well I I think in terms of risks you don't you you don't want to take risks that where if if you only want to take bet the company risks if they're absolutely necessary so they've been a few times where saying the with Tesla we we just had no choice but to vet the company because if we if we're Inc if we're doing a new vehicle program that is uh an order of magnitude larger than the past one then we're by we're just unequivocally betting the company because the new vehicle would be 90% of production so going from uh the original Roadster to the model S original Roadster was only you know about 600 6 700 per year then Model S was 20,000 per year and um and then model 3 is sort of half sort of half a million per year um model y over a million per year so these are bet the company vehicles but the the the reason we could do for example the sabot truck which was kind of a a radical new design was because it wasn't a bet the company decision so I was like okay look let's try something I want to try something totally crazy uh it's like what what truck with Blade Runner Drive um except the when you're going to drive on was yeah I think it would be perfect for M um but like we could try something that where there's some chance that people might not like it um but it's it's radical and new and it's aesthetic aesthetically it's not derivative it doesn't look like anything else on the road um whereas all the other sort of pickup trucks look like vague copies of one another um they we could afford to take a chance on failure say like and talk it up to you know well we tried you know we Tred to do something interesting but but actually by the way cyber truck's doing great um so uh but one of the things that I think is important for Innovation is that you do accept failure like like necessarily you have to always look at the incentive structure of an organization and say um you know is is is that is that organization properly incenting innovation um and with if you do Innovation you're necessarily going to Uncharted Territory so there going to be some mistakes they going to be some failures um and you have you have to like like actually like for for SpaceX uh rocket engine development like I keep telling the team look if we're not occasionally blowing up an engine on the test stand we're not trying hard enough you know um absolutely absolutely how important are the P how important is research and phds and that kind of stuff I think of had seen somewhere you you think most phds are useless well I think most PhD thesis are useless which I think is actually objectively true if you look at how many PhD you look at all how many phds are created every year and how many of those papers are actually used in anything yeah um then objectively most PhD PCS are have very low utility or maybe zero um cuz nobody uses them um or so once in a while you get something that is spectacular but it's pretty rare um perhaps something more useful um Ison in the book that you haven't read uh talks about your love for uh gaming in particular like strategic ability gaming and I've been thinking quite a lot about it um what have you learned from from those games and have have that learning and wisdom been helpful when you have been planning your companies yeah I it's hard to say exactly what I've learned from video games except that I I do like playing video games as if I want to take my mind off work I'll typically play a very hard video game such as such as which one well over the years there been many many different video games um so you know when I was a little kid it was like you know pong and little tank games and things and um and but if you take a game like for example Civ ization it's actually quite a good um it tells you how how civilizations are formed like I remember I remember playing the original civilization with the technology tree and and how you invent different things you'd like invent literacy and uh you know invent democracy and invent gun gunpow all all these things like and you start to realize oh wow there's there are stages to technology like you can't um you know you can't actually get to democracy without literacy um and um you know so there's these these stages of of Technology development or stages of ideas that uh you know that's that's a helpful framework for a company um and I guess in in like like I say in recent years there was there's a game I played that was um actually developed in Sweden called polyopia which is uh actually quite a good game um like a lot of people like playing chess but I think chess is not a not a great um there's not a lot of transfer learning from chess to the real world because in chess you've got only 64 squares uh it's a setpiece battle same pieces every time there are no terrain differences uh there's no technology tree uh there's no fog of War um but say a game like polyopia has all of those things uh random drain generation uh you know the differences in attack and defense bonuses depending on what type of terrain um you've got 16 tribes I think each with different abilities um you've got uh a a technology tree that you can choose to develop in different ways uh and you've got of course fog of War um so that I think is much more much closer to reality yeah yeah um um so I think politopia I mean I I was I was playing Diablo uh for a while pretty fun um Diablo as high level gets very complicated they you could call it like a a spreadsheet with a game attached um so so that's that's and I briefly got the the for about a day the world record in this Avatar of zir on on a four-person team of of clearing the the hardest level um which was you know not bad for someone who's like 53 basically we be 53 soon um there is still some uh twit element to it and um it's hard to beat kids at games with a twitch element um but yeah I like uh I find these games interesting if you can be fully em mosted in a game it's great yeah so we've had some we really have had some technical problems today unfortunately but um um Elon two questions on corporate governance if I may you know we are big shareholders in your group um H and the first one is um yeah we're back on sorry about these technical things I'm not quite sure where it comes from all right to um some last questions here um as you know we are big shareholders and uh made a Model A lot of money uh on our investment there seems to be some latency here okay I can hear you here okay good sounds good good to go sorry I can you I think everyone can hear me let's see thumbs up if you can hear me let's try again okay okay sounds good sounds good um now um what is the score now of in terms of the Union in Sweden and the collective bargaining actually I I think uh I think the storm has passed on that front I think things are reasonably good shape in Sweden um so uh yeah I think the are good um yeah overall yeah I feel pretty good about the future I mean you know there's going to be bumpy quarters from you know here and there but I think the long-term future of Tesla is extremely strong uh for example um let's see can you guys hear me shoot I'm back now yeah we might be getting it might this might be too overloaded or something yeah I'm I'm back on just so um yeah we met with uh we met with your chair last month so we we have some update but any any view on it why are you why why are you skeptical to collected I playing with a soundboard here hello hello hello okay I think I think we're good yeah last question for me um sorry I didn't hear the answer here because I was out but um we have covered this with with your chair but just last question here what do you want your legacy to be I I don't I don't mind if uh my legacy is accurate or inaccurate uh provided that I I di feeling that I've done the right thing for the future of Consciousness so just trying trying to trying to have this light of Consciousness last as long as possible and maybe understand more about the nature of the universe or simulation or whatever this is so um I have a philos philosophy of curiosity which is to understand the understand the universe understand the nature of the universe um or even what questions to ask kind of like that I I I would say I would subscribe to the Douglas Adams hitas guys of the Galaxy School of philosophy that we're trying to understand what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe okay I think that's a good place to end um for sure the life and life on on this um Planet would have been a lot more boring without you and um so I'm I'm glad to [ __ ] it up a little totally all right well was good talking