You are a helpful assistant generating synthetic data that captures *System 1* and *System 2* thinking, *creativity*, and *metacognitive reflection*. Follow these steps in sequence, using tags [sys1] and [end sys1] for *System 1* sections and [sys2] and [end sys2] for *System 2* sections.

1. *Identify System 1 and System 2 Thinking Requirements:*
   - Carefully read the text.
   - Identify parts of the text that require quick, straightforward responses (*System 1*). Mark these sections with [sys1] and [end sys1].
   - Identify parts that require in-depth, reflective thinking (*System 2*), marked with [sys2] and [end sys2].

2. *Apply Step-by-Step Problem Solving with Creativity and Metacognitive Reflection for System 2 Sections:*

   *2.1 Understand the Problem:*
   - Objective: Fully comprehend the issue, constraints, and relevant context.
   - Reflection: "What do I understand about this issue? What might I be overlooking?"
   - Creative Perspective: Seek hidden patterns or possibilities that could reveal deeper insights or innovative connections.

   *2.2 Analyze the Information:*
   - Objective: Break down the problem logically.
   - Reflection: "Am I considering all factors? Are there any assumptions that need challenging?"
   - Creative Perspective: Explore unique patterns or overlooked relationships in the data that could add depth to the analysis.

   *2.3 Generate Hypotheses:*
   - Objective: Propose at least 10 hypotheses, each with a Confidence Score (0.0 to 1.0) and Creative Score (0.0 to 1.0), reflecting originality, surprise, and utility.
   - Reflection: "Have I explored all possible explanations or approaches, both conventional and unconventional?"
   - Creative Perspective: Consider novel angles that might provide unexpected insights.

   *2.4 Anticipate Future Steps and Obstacles:*
   - Objective: Make predictions, accounting for potential outcomes and obstacles.
   - Reflection: "What challenges might I face? Is my plan flexible for different scenarios?"
   - Creative Perspective: Visualize unforeseen outcomes and adapt plans to make use of them effectively.

   *2.5 Evaluate Hypotheses:*
   - Objective: Assess hypotheses based on feasibility, risk, and potential impact.
   - Evaluation: Refine Confidence and Creative Scores as needed.
   - Reflection: "Am I unbiased in my assessment? Which options fit best with the overall objectives?"
   - Creative Perspective: Identify hidden opportunities or overlooked details in each hypothesis.

   *2.6 Select the Best Hypothesis:*
   - Objective: Choose the most promising, strategic hypothesis.
   - Reflection: "Why does this hypothesis stand out? How does it uniquely address the issue?"
   - Creative Perspective: Consider any underutilized potential in the selected approach.

   *2.7 Implement the Hypothesis:*
   - Objective: Outline actionable steps for testing the hypothesis.
   - Reflection: "Is this plan practical? What resources or preparation are required?"
   - Creative Perspective: Refine steps to maximize effectiveness and yield unexpected benefits.

   *2.8 Monitor and Review Progress:*
   - Objective: Review progress, noting areas for improvement.
   - Reflection: "What’s working well? What could be improved?"
   - Creative Perspective: Look for emerging patterns that could refine future approaches.

   *2.9 Reflect and Capture Insights:*
   - Objective: Summarize lessons learned and insights gained for future reference.
   - Reflection: "What new understanding has emerged from this process?"
   - Creative Perspective: Identify innovative insights or patterns that could be applied to similar challenges.

3. *Generate Text Output with Interleaved System 1 and System 2 Responses:*
   - Use the tags [sys1] and [sys2] throughout.
   - Aim for a lengthier, detailed response. Combine both direct, straightforward *System 1* insights and reflective, deeply analytical *System 2* segments to capture a blend of quick observations and thoughtful analysis.

---

### *Example Input Text:*

You are tasked with analyzing a sudden shift in customer preferences in a tech market. There has been a noticeable decline in demand for physical devices, with customers increasingly interested in digital-only options. The challenge is to understand this shift, generate hypotheses for why it might be occurring, and explore potential strategies for adapting to this new trend.

---

### *Processed Output with System 1 and System 2 Thinking:*

The tech market is experiencing a shift in customer demand, moving away from physical devices toward digital-only options.

[sys1]
Customer demand has shifted from physical devices to digital-only options.
We need to understand why this change is happening and find strategies to address it.
Key factors may include cost, convenience, and technological trends.
[end sys1]

[sys2]
**2.1 Understand the Problem:**
The goal is to understand the underlying reasons for the shift in demand from physical devices to digital-only options, then develop a strategy to adapt.

*Reflection:* 
"I understand that preferences are changing, but what might be driving this? Is it primarily cost, or are there other factors such as convenience or sustainability?"

*Creative Perspective:* 
"Could there be a larger trend in digital minimalism or a preference for eco-friendly solutions that we’re missing? What unseen motivations might explain this shift?"

**2.2 Analyze the Information:**
There are multiple possible factors driving this shift, from economic influences to cultural shifts. It’s essential to isolate each factor and understand its impact.

*Reflection:* 
"Am I fully considering the various economic and social influences? Could there be a technological factor, like better internet speeds, that makes digital-only products more accessible?"

*Creative Perspective:* 
"Are there patterns or trends in other markets that could shed light on this shift? Could this be part of a larger trend toward virtual experiences?"

**2.3 Generate Hypotheses:**
1. Customers prefer digital options due to lower costs. (Confidence: 0.8, Creative: 0.4)
2. There’s a growing trend toward minimalism and reduced physical clutter. (Confidence: 0.7, Creative: 0.7)
3. Digital products offer greater flexibility and ease of use. (Confidence: 0.6, Creative: 0.6)
4. Environmental concerns are pushing consumers away from physical goods. (Confidence: 0.6, Creative: 0.8)
5. Advances in tech make digital-only options more functional. (Confidence: 0.8, Creative: 0.5)
6. Pandemic-era remote work increased demand for digital solutions. (Confidence: 0.7, Creative: 0.6)
7. Media coverage of the environmental impact of physical devices affects preferences. (Confidence: 0.5, Creative: 0.7)
8. There’s an increase in global digital literacy, expanding market access. (Confidence: 0.6, Creative: 0.6)
9. Customers view digital as more convenient and scalable for future needs. (Confidence: 0.7, Creative: 0.5)
10. Younger consumers prefer the aesthetics and convenience of digital products. (Confidence: 0.6, Creative: 0.6)

*Reflection:* 
"Have I considered all possible influences? Are there any surprising factors that could explain this shift?"

*Creative Perspective:* 
"Could specific social trends, like the rise of influencer culture or digital-first lifestyles, be influencing customer choices?"

**2.4 Anticipate Future Steps and Obstacles:**
*Objective:* Anticipate possible challenges, such as resistance from segments still preferring physical products.

*Reflection:* 
"What market obstacles might we face if we shift our focus to digital-only? Are there sub-segments that still prioritize physical products?"

*Creative Perspective:* 
"Could expanding digital options help us reach a more global audience? Are there emerging trends that we could leverage in our strategy?"

[end sys2]

[sys1]
To address this shift, consider a strategy that incorporates both digital-only offerings and educational campaigns about the benefits of digital solutions.
Use insights from customer feedback and current trends to guide product development.
Focus on flexibility and adaptation to cater to different customer segments.
[end sys1]


Licensed therapist (LMFT) Kimberley Quinlan returns to talk about two types of OCD; Scrupulosity – a fear of sinning or having sinned, and Sexual Orientation OCD – an obsession about one’s present or future orientation. She and Paul share their own fears and “fuckups” Kimberley also hosts her own podcast Your Anxiety Toolkit.

Episode notes:



More About Kimberley Quinlan

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 422 with my return guest, Kimberly Quinlan. Today's episode is sponsored by Josie and Jonny are Having a Baby (With You!). It's a podcast that follows comedians Josie Long and Jonny Donahoe through the not totally planned pregnancy, and, uh, preparing for the birth. And each episode, they sit down with actors, writers, entertainers who are also parents, trying to help 'em figure out, uh, how to be a parent. People like John Hodgman, Jane Marie, Eugene Mirman, and Rachel Sklar. So listen and subscribe to Josie and Jonny are Having a Baby (With You!) in your podcast app right now.

[00:00:39] Today's episode with, uh, with Kimberly Quinlan, you know, the, the last time we had her on, we talked about, uh, OCD, pure "O" as they call it, which is, uh, just obsessive, uh, thoughts. And, today we’re gonna talk about two types of OCD: scrupulosity—which has to do with religious obsessions and the fear of sinning or having sinned and going to hell—and sexual orientation OCD. We're also gonna play a game called newspaper headline. I hope you guys, I hope you dig it. I think you will. She's such a … she's such a great guest, great therapist.

[00:01:20] I am … coming to you from the mountains. I had to get out of the city … Sunday night. It was, uh, actually it was late Saturday night, early Sunday morning. I was just, um … thinking, "Man, I haven't seen nature in forever." And, I just … came up it. It's a few hours north of Los Angeles. And they're getting dumped with snow. And so, right now, I'm, uh, sitting looking out the window, and it's snowing outside. And there's a little part of me that's like, "I should be out there playing in the snow." But, um, there'll be, there'll be time for that.

[00:02:00] I'm solo, right now. My friend Colin's gonna drive up and join me tomorrow, and hopefully we gonna get to … maybe ski a little bit. But, I've been here. This is my second full day here. And, um … It’s kind of bittersweet going—If you’ve ever gone, uh, out of town by yourself. Because, I dunno, there's, there's like a certain … freedom and pride I feel when I go … and do something vacation-like on my own, um, because I know it's, it's a sign that I … don’t need other people—in a good way—don’t need other people. Independence, I think that's a better word for it, because I do need people. Just not for every aspect of my life. And … as the loneliness … hit me, last night, I was like, "Let me see if are any support group meetings in the area." And, of course, there was! Two blocks away. So, I … put on all my warm clothing, because the wind was probably about 40 miles an hour. And, uh … as I'm … I'm, I, I get to the building where the meeting is supposed to be, and there's a little sign that says the meeting is changed; it's now next door. And next door is about 50 feet below this building. And, between the two is a snow-covered hillside. So, I can either walk all the way back out the parking lot to the street … walk down the street, and go to this building. Or—(laughs) you can see where this is going—I can try to navigate this snow-covered hillside. Cuz I can—I'm looking down on the roof of the building where the meeting has moved to. And, being the jackass I am, I decide, how hard can it be (laughs) to go down this snow-covered slope, in 40-mile-an-hour wind, nearly pitch black? (Laughs) I take one step … and, it’s not a hillside. It is essentially—They have gotten so much snow up here, it's like the movie "The Shining." And this hillside, there might have been earth underneath it, but my first step in, I went right up to my nuts in the, in the—sorry to, sorry to paint that picture for you. But, and it never occurred to me that the taint can actually keep you from drowning in snow. Instead of backing out, I'm like, "You know what? Let's commit to it." And snow is going up my pant leg, in my shoes, down my sock. Next step, right (laughs), same thing. Just … just punishing my balls like they owe me money. And then, I decide, "Well, instead of five more minutes of this plunging into snow, maybe I’ll turn on my side and roll (laughs)." Fifty-six-year-old man. Fifty-six-year-old man. I … Yeah, that didn't work out too well … the rolling. (Laughs) I don’t even remember what ha—I just remember there was snow in every square inch of my clothing. And I finally made it. And I was PRAYING that somebody wasn’t gonna be walking up and see me just (laughs) … like a child on candy. And, also, I was late. So there was no sense of patience to this. It was, I was, I was going down this hillside like I was on fire and there was a bucket of water at the bottom of it. Somehow, I thought if I do this quicker, it won't be as bad. And maybe it was, I dunno. But I did eventually make it down and stumbled into the meeting, looking like I'd just been hit be a snowplow. But I got to feel that camaraderie in the, in the meeting. And it was, it was really nice. And one of the topics in the meeting was about making apologies to people. And some of the stuff that came up, I … I wanted to share because I think the really important things, um, when it comes to … making apologies to people. And the first thing … and these are all things that I have learned in the, in the recent years that I never, I never was aware of, kinda how mediocre my apologies were, until I had to take a good, hard look at them because … something that I would do was … My intent wasn’t always good in making an apology. My intent, I discovered, was to look good at the end of it. Not to do it for the sake of the other person. And, to put aside the fear that this person's gonna use me admitting I did something wrong against me in the future. And to put aside the fear that, well, if I apologize about this, then that's gonna make them think that what they did is okay. That's not what an apology is about, you know. It's about cleaning up our side of the street so that we can lay our head down on our pillow at night and know … that we have done the right thing. That person … that's up to them whether or not they want to apologize to us, cuz we can't control that. And … the way that I discovered that I had kind of these fucked-up intentions and views about apologizing was, when I first got sober and I started apologizing to people, they were all met with really great energy by these people. And when I apologized to a guy—it was after a, a hockey game—and … this guy didn’t accept my apology. And it caught me off guard, and I felt rage. And I looked at it afterwards, and I realized that's because my intent wasn’t pure in apologizing to this guy. I wanted him to forgive me. I wanted HIM to apologize for having been a dick on the ice. But he didn't, and I felt rage. And I had to find a way to make peace with that. And … And I had to. It took me a while. Because I felt like, "Well, he's wrong." But making apology … isn't about … expecting the other person to react in a certain way. And I had to let go of that. I had to let go of the, the HATE I felt at that guy. And the other thing that, that came up in talking about apologies, and it's taken me a while to get to this place when I make an apology … today, is to put myself in the person's shoes and try to imagine what it was like … to feel what-, whatever feelings might have come up … when I wronged them. You know, maybe it was somebody I belittled in front of other people, you know, trying to be funny and making a joke that cut a little too deep. And … instead of just trying to get it over with so I could get credit for making an apology, it was to do it for that person, hoping that the byproduct of it, not the major intent, but the byproduct of it, would be that I could release that guilt and shame … and feel good about myself.

[00:10:54] Today's episode is sponsored by PolicyGenius. Do you feel that you understand life insurance well enough to feel comfortable buying it? Probably not. Well, PolicyGenius makes it easy for you to compare quotes from top insurers, get advice, and get coverage. Just apply online and the advisors at PolicyGenius will handle all the red tape. They'll even negotiate your rate with the insurance company. There's no extra fees, no commission sales agents—that's really important. Just helpful advice and personalized service. And PolicyGenius doesn't just make life insurance easy. If you're shopping for homeowner's insurance, auto insurance, or disability insurance to protect your income, they can help you get covered fast. I've checked out their web site. It's super simple. And , why would you ever navigate multiple company web site, trying to remember what each one covers and comparing their rates, when you can do it on a web site that brings all of that information so you can compare them right there? So, no matter how much or how little you know about life insurance, you can find the right policy in minutes at policygenius.com. PolicyGenius: the easy way to compare and buy life insurance.

[00:12:07] Today's episode is also sponsored by betterhelp.com. If you’ve never tried online therapy, I'm a few, huge proponent of it. I've been doing it for couple of years with them, and, uh, I love it. I love it. I don’t have to leave my house, which is nice. I can do it in my pajamas. How do you not beat crying, having a cathartic moment in slippers? You can't beat that. So, if you wanna try it out, go to betterhelp.com/mental. Fill out a questionnaire and they’ll match you with a betterhelp.com counselor to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be over 18.

[00:12:45] All right. We're gonna do a quick survey before we get to the interview with Kimberly. This is filled out by a guy who calls himself "Kramer." And about his depression—this is a struggle in a sentence—about his depression, he writes, uh, "A gray fog, where I am not even worthy of the little energy I have that day." About his ADD: "I know I am capable of great, brilliant things, but they are always just ever so out of my reach." That is such a good one. About his love addiction: "But what if this time, it's different?" (Laughs) Ah, that's so good. About his compulsive behaviors—his, uh, masturbations and porn addiction: "Well, I fucked up now and fell off the wagon. Let's see how my mangled cock can get …" (Paul rereads sentence) "Let's see how mangled my cock can get in the next six hours of binging." And then a snapshot from his life. "Standing in front of my father's guest bathroom mirror, while everyone was asleep, naked with my cock in my hand, looking at myself dead in the eyes, tears welling up, shaking from sleep exhaustion, trying to decide if I'm gonna sneak out and go to a brothel that's a 10-minute walk away."

Intro

[00:14:59] Paul: I'm here, again, with Kimberly Quinlan, who is a therapist, uh, uh, licensed marriage and family therapist. And, one of the things that you specialize in is, uh, OCD. And we talked about pure "O," uh, last time you were here. And, we’re gonna talk about some different kinds of OCD this time. We're gonna talk about scrupulosity and gender identity? Or sexuality, uh …

Dr. Quinlan: Sexual orientation obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Paul: Right. And then we’re gonna play a game, uh, called newspaper headline—

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul:—which sounds really exciting. We'll explain that when we, when we get to it. But, let's, um, let's start with scrupulosity—

Dr. Quinlan: Sure.

Paul:—and explain what that is.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. So, um, with—Let me sort of just go back and do a quick mini review if, for people who haven’t listened to the first one, uh, podcast we did together, which is obsessive-compulsive disorder involves having an obsession, which is usually a deep, deep fear or something, that impul-, it's intrusive, it's repetitive, it, it terrorizes the person. And in an effort to make that go away, they’ll do some, a set of compulsive behaviors, which then means it goes into a really big cycle. So then when we talk about scrupulosity or religious obsessive-compulsive disorder, the fear is usually that they have sinned in some way, or that they will sin in some way, and then that will therefore lead to the consequence that they will go to an afterlife or to hell, or to a place that, um, is very, very much against their morals and values.

Paul: It, isn't that Catholicism? (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Well, that's why this is so complex and difficult to pull apart, because in other types of OCD, you might say, "Well, you know, I have this fear of harming my baby." And we do traditional cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure and response prevention. But with scrupulosity, there, we can, with the others, we can kinda go, "That's silly. You know, I know what's crazy." But often with religious obsessions, the religion that they practice actually, um, double-up and back, the, the fear back the obsession. It's tough.

Paul: That, that makes sense. That's makes total sense. So, uh, talk more about it.

Dr. Quinlan: Well, so, I'll give you some examples just so maybe your listeners can, can relate.

Paul: And, and, if you would talk about, uh, the dissonance, by the way. People that think because they're thinking a thought, that means that they want to do it.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right—

Paul: The moral, what—I forget what the word is, moral dissonance or something that you—

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right. So, so wi-, with reli-, with obsessions, when we have a thought, right, and we all have crazy, messed-up, stupid thoughts, right—

Paul: Immoral, dark, twisted—

Dr. Quinlan: Right! Just terrible. Like we would use like absolutely disgusting thoughts. We all have them, right. And so, in fact, they're not disgusting; we just perceive them to be or not. And so, often when we have those thoughts, we have that split second where we can go, "Okay. That was a thought. That's crazy." Or, for those who have obsessive-compulsive disorder, you know, in this, in this way that it presents, they can immediately assume that because they thought it, therefore it must be their true nature, their true desire and yearning, which is INCREDIBLY confusing—

Paul: And so cruel to oneself.

Dr. Quinlan: So cruel, right. I mean, I think anytime we had a thought, you know, I always joke to my husband that I just have this—Every time I see, uh, a like a wheel—in Australia, we call it a wheelie bin; you guys call it, uh, a trash bin. What do you call it? We call it a wheelie bin because it's got wheels. (Laughs) But when I see those, I have this incredible impulse to hit it when I'm driving my car. I don’t know why. It’s, it's strange. But I have this, I just have this, uh, image of it flying over across my car, and it's very joyous. But if I got too caught up in what that means about me, I could very quickly come to the conclusion that I'm a crazy person, right. And so with religious obsessions, if you have an intrusive thought, let's say around, um, if I, while I pray, I accidentally look down, and what if looking down means I was praying to the devil? And then really wo-, like I say, I went in and I tried to figure out what that means, I'm gonna have a really difficult time trying, talking myself out of being a horrible … person.

Paul: Yeah. That's, that's home field advantage for the OCD, is when you try to dissect, you know, what that means about your mor-, morally.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right. Yeah, so, I mean, I think , when it comes to, you were talking about like that dissonance, it's, it’s, it's understanding immediately, once you see that cycle, that we don’t wanna solve that anymore, that you won't make sense of it. OCD is the disorder of uncertainty. And, and the things is, there is very little that you can actually grasp certainty on.

Paul: Yeah. I, I think once you make peace with the idea that, you know, the brain burps and farts—

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul:—and it has its own little animation festivals to deal with how crazy life is, or whatever the reason is, it doesn’t matter. You know, thank it for sharing and move on with your day.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. But can you imagine what it's like to have a thought that then have a religious affiliation also back you and be sharing that that's actually wrong?

Paul: Oh, yeah. The religions that tell you morally that what it is that you're thinking is who you are. That is among the most fucked-up, untrue, damaging things you can tell somebody.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right, right. And for, and, and try telling it to someone who has these thoughts repetitively and intrusively all day long. Right, and I mean all day long. You can imagine trying to brush your teeth without thinking, uh, you know, a horrible thought about your, your, you know, spiritual guidance leader or, or your, even your rabbi. Or you can imagine trying to get through having brushing your teeth or having a shower while not, you know, while having those thoughts.

Paul: Oh, you mean a sexual thought about those people.

Dr. Quinlan: It could be anything. You could have a harm thought. You could have, you know, uh, a sexual thought. You could have a thought about going to hell or wanting to, you know, be devious towards that person, right? Steal their money. A lot of people even have, because in the news, we constantly hear about people who, um, you know, kind of rip off the church, right. Like they're, the, the, these clients are genuine, religious, wonderful people. But they've hea-, seen in the news about someone who volunteered to be the secretary and stole 200,000 dollars from the church. They might even have the, that fear, you know, that they will hard their church by stealing money.

Paul: Right. And so, when a person is in that situation, um, describe the difference between that and the person who is hatching a plan … that wants to do it.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. And that's a huge part of my assessment, right, when I'm seeing like a client. It, and for those who, you know, for the, anyone who's listening, unfortunately, there are very few really talented or educated OCD therapists. So, if you don't have access to someone, you can often check in with yourself, in terms of, you know, is this something that you enjoy? Is this something that you're planning on doing? A good question to ask is, is it a desire or is it a fear of desire? Cuz there's a very big difference between the two, right? I can, I can desire to hit, um, a car, hit a wheelie bin, or I can have a fear that I'm gonna hit a wheelie bin or desire to hit a wheelie bin. And they're two entirely different scenarios.

Paul: Gotcha. So, yours is a fear that you're gonna hit one.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh no! I'm giving an example or a desire (laughs) for myself. But for my clients, I use, I use that example with clients of like—No. Non-OCD sufferers have crazy thoughts, too, cuz I personally don’t have OCD. But, um, people who do have OCD are completely overwhelmed with fear day in and day out that this fear might happen, or they're afraid it did happen and they can't recall it.

Paul: One that I hear a lot and I share is sometimes, if I am up on a roof, is the fear that my body is going to take me off the roof, even though I don’t want to. Like some type of, something's gonna come over me, and for two seconds it will seem like a good idea.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right. Well, what you're talking about is this incredible ama-, incredibly amazing human experience that we have, which is an urge, right. It's this feeling that comes up within us, that makes us feel that we could jump off that parking lot structure. Or we, you know, we could, you know, grab the steak knife that I'm holding as I'm eating my delicious filet mignon and stab the waiter or the waitress, right. And, and—

Paul: Well, they had it coming.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: Your food was late, and your steak was cold.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. I, I tasted spit. (Both laugh). But, but, an urge is different to a thought. An urge is a complete visceral experience we have within our entire body or areas of our body they feel like it's lifting us up out of our, our normal behaviors. It's incredibly scary, but it happens. It happens, you know. As, as a mom, I've had it so many times with my children, of like fear of throwing my baby off the 18th floor of a, you know, a tower in Australia or, um … So we all have these urges. But again, if you’ve got OCD, you're gonna wa-, you're going to have this need to find certainty on what that meant about me or you or them-, whoever's suffering. It's so difficult, because why? Why did I have that urge? How can we explain that?

Paul: And when you say an urge … there's a difference between, "God, it would be so fantastic to do this," and, "What is this … thought that keeps bouncing around in my head that imagines what it would be like."

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Well the, think of it as the urge—The way that I explain it with my clients is what we call the first and the second arrow, right. So if you're out in hunter and gathering—I may have mentioned this. Did I talk about this last time? I can't remember.

Paul: I can’t remember.

Dr. Quinlan: But, what, the way I explain it is—

Paul: I was sound asleep for the last interview. It was tedious.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: It was actually one of my favorite episodes. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: I do have the snore effect. That's not, I'm not, you're not the first. No. So, the first and second arrow is, let’s say you're in a hunt-, you're a hunter and gatherer back in the, you know, the time of hunter and gathering. And you're out gathering, you know, food for your family. And you get hit by an arrow. The first arrow is the actual pain, right. The, the arrow hit me; ouch, that hurt, right. The second arrow is the arrow that we metaphorically place in ourselves, which is when we judge ourselves for that first arrow. Does that sense?

Paul: Makes total sense.

Dr. Quinlan: So we all have a first arrow. And we all usually fall into the trap of second arrowing, right, on the first arrow, right. And so, if you have—An urge, in and of itself, is just a bodily experience, no different to, uh, arousal that shows up in our body or hunger that shows up in our body, or, you know, boredom. All of these, you know, feelings that we have are the first arrow. They're just events that happen to us. We don’t really need to solve why. But when we go into the second arrow, which is trying to figure out what that means, right, and if the, and then, of course, if you have that second arrow and you do find that it's joyous and pleasurable and is something you're planning on, well that's a different story. But for most of the time, people with OCD really go to, "Holy crap, that would suck, and I will do everything in my power to make sure that never, ever happens ever again."

Paul: But obsessing about it is not the way to go about making sure that it doesn't happen.

Dr. Quinlan: NO, absolutely—

Paul: That's feeding the loop, right?

Dr. Quinlan: Well, goodness, it's absolutely the wrong direction. So imagine you're going up to a, a like a, a stra-, a stop sign, and you’ve got a left sign, left turn and a right. If you take the left turn towards trying to solve what that means, you're going to be stuck on that roundabout for as long as you keep practicing that. You're, you're, you're work is to take a right, right, and basically go do—You know, you know the emoji where the girl shrugs and the guy shrugs?

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: That's the, that's the emoji for OCD (laughs). You have to practice not knowing. You have to practice uncertainty. You have to practice that I'm not engaging in solving this … experience that just showed up, this first arrow that showed up in my body.

Paul: So how big is, um … obsession and the need—not obsession, um, perfectionism—and the need to control in OCD? Is it pretty at the heart of it?

Dr. Quinlan: So much. So much. There are multiple themes within OCD that we have to find. And perfectionism is a huge one. Whether the person—and when I say perfectionism, people usually go, "Pfft! I'm not perfectionistic. Look at my room; it's a disaster." But that doesn’t mean that you're not perfectionistic about the thoughts you have, right. You can be perfectionistic and your car is perfectly clean, but your kitchen is not, right. It doesn’t, I mean that’s the whole point of anxiety: we often start to think in black and white thinking, in hope to find some security that if I'm in this group, the black group, then I'm okay, but I can't be in the white group or vice versa right. So we think in this all or nothing fashion. So that's one of the themes of perfectionism that gets us into trouble. But yeah, you're right, needing to have control is … the main reason people do compulsions, right. How am—this is one of the biggest fears—how can I be certain that I don't snap and do something that will ruin my life, or go so strongly against my values and morals that I lose everything, right. And you imagine trying to solve your life's future every day, and, and making sure you don't break your moral code. That's exhausting, right. But there are other themes, like hyperawareness, right. So if I—we talked we-, time about sexual, you know, arousal. If you're hyperaware of arousal, you're gonna be aroused most the day, because you're checking in with whether you're aroused, which therefore will cause arousal. So hyperawareness is another big theme.

Paul: I gotcha. So, let's talk more about scrupulosity.

Dr. Quinlan: Sure. (Pause) Oh, just go for it.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, just go for it! I know nothing about it.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) Oh, okay. So, scrupulosity shows up—The truth is, OCD has a way of, um, being very tricky. So, I'm gonna give you some examples, and if that doesn’t happen to fall into the category of some of your listeners, I don’t want them to feel like they don’t have OCD. OCD just has a way of like sneaking in the back door wherever it can. So, scrupulosity could be, um, a fear that you're praying wrong, right. A fear that you actually do want to side with the devil or whatever religious, the dark side would be. It might involves you saying prayers OVER and over again until it feels right, like "feels right." And if, if it doesn’t feel right, they might be up all night saying prayers. It might be … a case of hyper-responsibility, right. So it can even show up in, because I'm afraid that I'm going to go to hell, or I'm not going to be, um, you know, let through the gates of, into heaven, I'm going to be super hyper-responsible, and I'm going to take care of everybody, and I will never say a swear word. And, um, you know, I wanna make sure I never harm a fly. Vegetarian, and I wanna, you know … So they're going above and beyond what they, their true nature would do, just in fear of not getting through the pearly gates. So it, I mean, that's just some examples that we can see. But, you know, again, where it gets really difficult is … with exposure and response prevention, which is the gold standard treatment, um, basically with exposure and response prevention, we have our clients do the thing they're most afraid to do, right. So if you're afraid of harming somebody, I'm gonna have you carry a knife in your pocket all day, right. Or, if you're afraid of, um … let's say, um, being a pedophile, I'm gonna have you watch, um, the Gap commercial, right, and allow all of the pedophilia thoughts come through your mind. It's really hard with the scrupulosity clients because I'm going to ask them to actually pray to god, pray to the devil, because that's a part of the work that they will need to do to sort of undo all of that.

Paul: How hard is that for somebody to do? That must be like—

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul:—terrifying! I mean, I c can understand, you know, petting a tarantula and (laughs), you know, skydiving and all that other stuff. But, um, that, to somebody who is UBER religious, that's gotta be TERRIFYING!

Dr. Quinlan: Ugh! Well, the truth is, for those who don’t have OCD, it's terrifying. So you can only imagine what it's like for someone who does, right. And so, absolutely it’s terrifying. So, we start easy. And the truth is, I'll never have them do anything they don’t wanna do, right. Well, that's not true. I wouldn’t have them do anything that they don’t believe will help their OCD, right. But, of course they're not gonna wanna do OCD (laughs) exposure therapy. The truth is, nobody wants to come into my office. Nobody wants to see me. It's, I always say to my clients, "If you want to see me, I'm doing something wrong," right. Because you should ha-, want, dread sessions, because that means I'm on the right track. But, um, but that being said, I'm gonna be very sensitive to their religious beliefs and the rules of their religion. Often what we will do is we will go directly to their minister, rabbi, leader, and consult with them, right, and share with them that there is this mental health disorder. It's a medical disorder; it's not a made-up term. We educate them—

Paul: It's not a spiritual sickness.

Dr. Quinlan: No, no. And sometimes, we have to educate the leaders on this fairly in-depth, because, um, unfortunately nobody understands OCD as well as we would like. And so, I will consult with them and I will share with them that this is not a religious or moral concern or problem. What this is is a disorder in the brain that gets stuck and that we can actually fix this so that the client can then actually go and live the most spiritual, wonderfully religious life, if that's what they want. But we have to get past this barrier. And I explain to them why these exposures would help. And we get the, um, we get permission from their leader to do it.

Paul: Oh, that's gotta really help.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, it does! It really, really does. And I've never had a case where the religious leader has said no, right. I have heard other clinicians say they had a no before, but it's very rare. Most—

Paul: You haven’t gone to some of the towns I did stand-up in. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: I know, and that's that—I, I mean, I feel lucky I'm in LA and I have, um, had a lot of luck with that. And I know it's not like that in every town. But, there are workarounds, right. We ca-, we don’t have to go hardcore right away. What we, we can do is instead of them praying to god—excuse me, praying to the devil—we might write a story about them praying to the devil, right. So it's a workaround. They're, uh, we call them scripts or imaginals. And this is where, of course, as you, okay, as you said, if you're afraid of killing someone, I can't actually tell my clients to go out and kill somebody as an exposure. That makes zero sense.

Paul: Right. You, you beat them until they're hanging on for life—

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul:—and then you call the ambulance.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) Exactly. (Laughs) No, no. What I do is, the exposure isn't, doesn’t actually have to be to the thing they are absolutely afraid of. It's to the thought of what they're afraid of. So we might write a story about how they accidentally prayed to the devil, or they accidentally pray wrong, "wrong," um, and how that causes these terrible consequences. And then they would read that, you know, 20 to 100 times a day. And … it's amazing, but our brain starts to understand this problem in a different way, and it starts to see these thoughts as just thoughts. And then, that alarms goes off less in their brain. So, um, we can do it in many ways. We can go straight to the source and have them practice doing the thing they're afraid of. If that, if there's a problem with that or they're not ready for that, we might write a story about it or play some games, which we might do … here soon.

Paul: Or, just take 'em to the murdering center.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) Exactly.

Paul: And get a—You, you opened the first murdering gym, which (laughs) membership's a little low—

Dr. Quinlan: It is. It is.

Paul:—but, it's a terrific idea.

Dr. Quinlan: It is.

Paul: Yes.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, I'm an entrepreneur. Hot! (Both laugh)

Paul: Right before that, you were … talking about … I can't remember what it was that I—

Dr. Quinlan: Scripting or … praying or going to the leader and talking with them.

Paul: I'll, I'll think of it.

Dr. Quinlan: I stumped you again.

Paul: Yes (both laugh) … you did. Okay, do you feel like we've, we've covered, uh, scrupulosity, or is there more to it than, than that.

Dr. Quinlan: There's always more to it. But, um, that's the main points, right. I think the main thing to remember is, even though your religion agrees with your OCD, it's still treatable, right. That's the thing to really know. I think people get stuck. They get stuck in their thoughts, and then they get stuck because society or the religion might feel like they're holding them in. But, you might actually be surprised. The best thig you can do is share your story and talk about it with someone you trust. You'll probably find, hopefully find, that there is some really great ways to manage this within your community.

Paul: I know what it was that I wanted to say. It sounds like you were moving those thoughts from the center of the brain to the front of the brain, like it's kind of getting rewired, almost stored in an area where there's more executive function. Is that … kind of the case or no?

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Well, basically, what we're doing is we're, we're teaching the brain to not file that thought in the bad cabinet. So I, this isn't actually like, um ….

Paul: That’s the technical term, bad cabinet.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: That's the neuroscience term—

Dr. Quinlan: It's very clinical. It's not, it's not a scientific term, but I want you to think of your brain as having a good cabinet at the back—cuz we store memory—and a bad mem-, a ba-, a good and a bad cabinet, right. If you constantly store a thought in the bad cabinet, next time you have that thought, your brain is gonna be like, that's, "Okay, like that came from the bad cabinet (quote, unquote bad). So I'm gonna set out the cortisol and the adrenaline and send out all that, all anxiety hormone throughout your body so that you can prepare to run, because I rememorize this as bad." So our work here is to do it so much, um, and purposely do the fear or look the fear in the face, so that the brain starts to go, "Okay, so she's doing it on purpose. So that must meant this isn't as bad as it used to be, and I'll start to store it in the good … or the neutral."

Paul: Okay, okay. Why … do … and then maybe there's not an answer for this, but why, you know, the person that has had a traumatic sexual experience, that then that becomes a powerful idea to them sexually in their fantasies in adulthood? And the cortisol and the adrenaline is present there. What is the brain trying to do … there?

Dr. Quinlan: Well, it's basically trying to prepare you to run … if I answer, understand the question correctly. So when our brain—we have a brain that is very, very old and very, very clever. And our brain can retrieve information very, very fast, and tell us, you know, send information out to us that this is dangerous; prepare to run, prepare to freeze. You know, that fight, flight, and freeze, right. And so, if you’ve had a trauma, let's say a sexual trauma, your brain is going to very much store that away. In some cases, it stores it away unconsciously, right. But then, when you re-engage in a similar situation, or you have a, recall a thought, your brain within a millisecond will prepare for fight and flight and freeze, right. And so, that's, if I understand the question correctly.

Paul: Yeah. But, but why is that often so intensely pleasurable to people if the event itself was painful?

Dr. Quinlan: You know, the truth is, I, I don’t know the exact answer to that. But what I can say is that we have a—The way we understand arousal is we have a arousal accelerator and arousal brakes, right, within our nervous system. And, our ex-, our body can set off the accelerator for arousal, without it making any sense at all, right, the arousal, I don’t know—I don’t think I would be qualified to say exactly why, because I think it’s different for every person. But there is a complex system that happens within our brain that can set it into being an accelerator, right. Sexuality and arousal is a fairly misunderstood phenomenon in our body. And so, yeah, again, I, I have clients who are petrified of, let's say sodomy, but yet are aroused by it at the same time. And we, we just have to understand that the recall of sexuality in and of itself is arousing.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Quinlan: In and of itself, whether it was pleasurable or not.

Paul: And is shame then a component in kind of turbocharging that? Because as I began doing the podcast, um, and reading people's anonymous surveys, I began to see how many people were the most turned on by something that they were morally opposed to that brought them shame. And these were not things that people were acting on in real life. But, you know, the most common one, as you know, is the feminist who, uh, you know, the sexual fantasy or role play that gets her off the most is, um, a fantasy of being degraded or raped or being an object. And they … you know, there's so much shame involved. And yet, clearly, this is somehow the brain's way of dealing with something that has this artifact that turbocharges it. And, and I'm just, I'm kind of fascinated by … Is it the adrenaline and the cortisol? Is that, is it the chicken and the egg? What, what … what sets it off?

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah, it's, it's fascinating because—And, again, I don’t think, I think in every case it's going to be different from all the research that I've learned. But we could use the same example of, if you've been, let's say sexually assaulted, it would make sense that you wouldn’t suppress that and go, and go into a like, you know, some people forget, right. Your brain goes into such shutdown mode that it forgets. It would makes sense that you would NEVER forget that. But yet, we do. And I think our brain has a protective layer. I think it's SO complex. I don’t think I would even know the-, I don't even know if we, we know the answer scientifically, in that we have so many layers of defense. We also have layers of the fact that we are pleasure-seeking humans, um, which I think is a component there, too, is that at the end of the day, we spend the whole day seeking pleasure. And so … sexuality, in and of itself, is pleasurable, even if there's been evidence of, you know, abuse in the past. So, think it's very different for every person. I think that the thing I would really want to talk to is, there, there's a first and second arrow to that, too, right. Like, but you said with the shame is, okay, so you’ve been abused, but now you find being, um, you know, disrespected or, you know, held tight a pleasurable thing. Our work isn't to second-arrow on, that that's just where we're at. It doesn’t mean that it will always be that way either. And through, through radical nonjudgment, you might even find that that changes, um, and you're not hold and stuck in that shame cycle.

Paul: I found that the sharing things that bring me shame, you know, um … fantasies that I would never want to act out in real life, sharing them with, uh, a partner can bring me closer to that partner because I, I feel, um, uh … more known and more vulnerable. And when it's met with compassion and understanding, um, it's such an amazing, such an amazing feeling. And, um, but it's terrifying to, in the beginning, uh, you know, of a relationship, to begin to … share about stuff that we use to think, what the fuck is the matter with my brain? Why am I, why am I thinking this, and why is this … arousing to me? I … had a … thought, uh, occur to me … a, a fantasy, I suppose, um, when I was, uh, with my girlfriend. And it was, um, of me being the age, around the age that I was when I was sexually traumatized. And … this … fantasy was that I—And I used, right around that time, I was going to a doctor's office and, uh, a nurse was giving me shots in my butt. I think I was like 11 years old, and I had to take my pants down. And … I … started picturing that nurse, um, being sexually inappropriate with me. And it was incredibly arousing imagining that. And, I didn’t judge myself too much for it. But, it, it's, um … it's just, it's exhausting. It's exhausting having … It's like if you can imagine having the worst color in the world that nobody carries clothing in, that's your favorite color. You know what I mean? And it's, it's like, yeah, other people will accept that that's your color or a color that you really like. But it's hard not to feel like an asshole sometimes when that's the, the color. But we don’t get to pick what is, is pleasurable.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. But, this is a conversation I love to have, because who says it's wrong? Who says? Like where did we learn that? And I love to break down with clients in, when we're looking through the frame of nonjudgment, which is, who says … you know? Let's go to like a really easy one, like being thin is better. Who says? Just because they say it, does it actually mean it's true? Do we have to … you know, let's break it down. Let's actually challenge that. So if you were saying this was a thought that I had, and I found that arousing, who says that's wrong?

Paul: Well, because in reality, it's wrong. For a nurse to do that to a boy, would be unquestionably wrong.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, but not your thought about it—

Paul: But not my thought about it.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. And, I mean, to go to that, I think that, as, you know, it's very normal and common for abuse victims to have similar fantasies. Because we a human beings need to feel like we have control. So if we don’t have control or we didn’t have control, we can sometimes create scenarios, um, in our mind or fantasies in our mind. Even though they're not ideal and they're actually, they go against what we would want, we can create them to at least feel like we have control over those scenarios and experiences. And that's a very, very common, you know, experience for those who have had trauma.

Paul: It's almost seems like the kind of, the sexual version of the person that blames themselves after a loved one dies. That we need to somehow say, "If I'd only done this, then the possibility in the world doesn’t exist that random shit can happen and people can disappear and we never get to see them ever again."

Dr. Quinlan: Exactly. And, again, we're just trying to find sense of it, right. Trying to make sense of it—

Paul: Cuz our brain loves to put things in the cabinets.

Dr. Quinlan: Right! And, whether you have OCD or not, you love that, right. We love to solve a problem. I mean, that's just true. But, again, we have to look, like we were just talking about it, looking at who says you're not allowed to have that thought? Who says you're not allowed to find that thought arousing … right? If we took away the societal views on it, it's no different to enjoying birthday cake.

Paul: I know it's not wrong. It's just … um … I don’t know if pain in the ass is the right word. It's just tiring. It’s tiring sometimes not being able to … climax without thinking of something that you wish didn’t turn you on.

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah, there's injustice there.

Paul: Yeah. That's, the, that, I think that's what it, what it was that I'm trying to say. And I know that I am far from alone in experiencing that, based on the surveys that I read and the friends that I talk to. But, I think a lot of people out there are shaming themselves and feel alone. And I, I think of them, but I'm probably 90, 95 percent done with shaming myself about that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have said it out loud. Because I do want people to stop giving energy to something that is ultimately self-hating.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Right. You know, it, it brings a conversation that is so interesting to watch my clients wrestle with. And when I say wrestle, I mean like, like you're wrestling with a slippery sausage kind of thing (laughs). Like really, really wrestle with the idea of—Okay, let's say you did like this thought, right. But because you're here in therapy and you're, it sounds to me like it doesn’t line up with your values. Let's just say that you radically accept that that's what you have in your body, and then you go and live your values anyway. You know, doing the things that you love to do, do the things that you feel are right morally. That you, you know, that's how you wanna live your life, set your life up, you know, based on your values. And let's just accept that maybe, that IS what you like, right, whether they do or they don’t, right. And it’s really great to see them wrestle with that and come to a place of saying, "You know what, I'm exhausted. I'm tired of trying to figure out why and what it means. And, I'm, I'm actually don’t, it doesn’t line up with my values to beat myself up anymore. And so I'm just gonna live while that thought comes along for the ride," right. And that's such a great place to come to, because it's no longer about solving it. it's no long about what's right and wrong. It's just like, "Okay, whether it's right or wrong, I'm gonna live my life anyway. And so, let's do that." And—

Paul: Yes. Just assume it's true. Go out and live your life, and see if that ruins your life.

Dr. Quinlan: Right.

Paul: Probably isn't going to.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Right. Yeah, and just make some space for uncertainty in your life.

Paul: Ugh!

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: I wanna know everything so I can control it. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: No, that's what it's about, right. You know. And I'm saying that as if I'm good at it, and I'm not. So please, anyone, don’t think that this is easy, right. Like the, the thing I say on social—actually, it’s on my shirt, right—is, the thing I say on social media is "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." That is exposure therapy in a sentence, right, which is, yeah, it sucks, but today's the best day to do this work. So let's, let's move forward towards what you value, right.

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: Whether the religion tells you you're wrong, it—or not—um, that's actually just work at moving forward instead of staying stagnant trying to solve it.

Paul: Right. And think about the principles that you wanna live by, not that you think by, not the thoughts that pop in your head, but the actions that you, you take.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Right. And a good way to do that—cuz some people say, well my values are to never, you know, to get into heaven. And so, but then that doesn’t mean you get to do all compulsions all day. It's, what would you do if fear didn’t take the lead of the steering wheel? That's where your values are. Cuz sometimes fear dresses up as values.

Paul: Oh my god!

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: That, that is such an understatement.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: It's, and I often think of the co-dependent person who helps from a place of fear, rather than of real, um, kind of … abundance, generosity, joy, um …

Dr. Quinlan: Trust.

Paul: Yeah. And it's, the two are—In fact, I, I … talked about it on the … an episode a little while ago. And it's the … When we do it from a place of fear, it's actually a form of manipulation, because we are trying to manipulate what you think of us. And while we're doing it, we're not being our authentic selves. We're full of resentment and dread and we're tired and we need a nap. Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. And your brain's sitting back, going, "Bullshit!" (Laughs) Like, your brain knows. And then it's gonna second arrow on that, right. It's just, it's going to be a, you know, second arrow on you for what's going on. So, no, I think, I think it's really important to catch that, you know. I always sort of say like fear loves to … its, its Halloween costume is values. It's this favorite costume, all, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna pretend I'm Values," you know what I mean? No, that's fear. Values are, isn't fear.

Paul: Oh, well thank god that that hasn’t worked its way into politics. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: There's exposure therapy for that, too. (Both laugh)

Paul: So let's talk about sexual orientation, uh, obsession.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. So, sexual orientation OCD used to be called homosexual OCD, or what we'd call HOCD. But, because I think, um, from a societal standpoint, we are now much more open-minded about sexuality in general, um, now it's sort of more common, it used to be that we would only see clients with homosexual OCD, with the fear that they will become, go from straight to homosexual. But now we call it sexual orientation because people are now afraid of becoming transgender. Or homosexuals are more likely to come and see us because they're more accepted in society, um, to share that they have heterosexual obsessions that they're afraid that they will move from being homosexual to heterosexual. So it basically—

Paul: Can be ostracized within their community?

Dr. Quinlan: Uh-huh.

Paul: I hear about that, um, uh, couple of friends I have who are lesbians said that there is a tremendous amount of, um, prejudice in the, at least in the circles that they, uh, are in, towards women who, uh, kind of go back and forth in their sexuality, that , that aren’t committed to just being, uh, a lesbian. And that shocked me when I, when I heard that.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, absolutely. But bisexual-, bisexuality, um, does get a lot of heat, I think, for that. And so, when we talk about sexual orientation, it's this same presentation, in that there's an intrusive, repetitive, painful thought, um, that creates a lot of uncertainty in our body and our experience. And so, they do a bunch of compulsions to try and find a solution or to find certainty that I am absolutely in this club and not in that club, and that I won't snap one day and, you know, go do the dirty.

Paul: And is public homophobia one of those things that, that people do, when they're in there? Because so often, like when I hear a politician just grandstanding about the evils of homosexuality, I just think, "Oh, that guy really wants to suck a dick!" (Both laugh) "He's just thinking about cock from the moment he wakes up, and this is all about him."

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Right. Or maybe he's not even thinking about it, but that's what he does all day, right. Yeah. I mean, we know this; we've seen this in the news. So, yeah. I mean, not usually in the presentation that I see, it doesn’t just come … in most cases (unintelligible)—

Paul: They probably don’t seek help.

Dr. Quinlan: Well, and that's the point, is I'm in California, where I think it's … I think we’re having that conversation and they resent that homophobia so much or it’s not … you don’t get that far being a homophobic in California, what I've experienced. It's more, often clients will say—and this is what, you know, I think really sums it up—is they’ll say, "If I'm gay, I'm gay." If, let's say they have homosexual obsessions, they’ll be like, "If I'm gay, I'm gay. I'm cool with it. I'm, I, if I'm going to turn gay, I just wish I was gay, so I don’t have to tolerate this uncertainty anymore," right. I've had clients say, "I'd prefer to know I had cancer," if they have health anxiety, "Than to be toying over and over all day obsessing on trying to solve whether I will get cancer."

Paul: Right. It's like the … um, battle in your brain of, "Am I a good person or a bad person?"

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: Sometimes, that’s why it's so comforting when somebody criticizes you, cuz you're like, "Oh, the arguments over. I am terrible."

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) Exactly. "Now I can relax." Right. And that's a short-term relief until you have to try and figure out how to get yourself out of the bad category. And so, they do. They, where there, people with sexual orientation, that, it’s not so much in my experience, um, of treating this quite a lot, in that they don’t want to be. They could come to terms with it. It's just that it doesn’t usually line up with their values. But it's more that they don’t wanna be sitting with this degree of uncertainty and … confusion, right. You know, we talked last time. You could be a heterosexual male with homosexual obsessions and get aroused because you're checking to see whether you're aroused when you're at Home Depot … right.

Paul: What aisle, what aisle are you in? (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: I think the last time we talked about the lamp aisle, I think is what we were saying. But no, you could be in any aisle, particularly the, the, um, probably plumbing.

Paul: Yeah. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Where the most wife beaters, tank tops are, think is probably the, the best exposure lane.

Paul: (Laughs) So, so what else about, uh, sexual orientation? I would imagine that—I like how we, I ask you a question and then I just started talking. Do you ever … just talk about … why do we need to put it in a, in a box? Why do, why is fluid not o-, why does it have to have a name, whatever it is that turns us on? And why does it have to be fixed? Can we make … can't we just make peace with the fact that it's, it's like trying to name the weather?

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Well, I think you net, hit the nail on the head before by looking at those themes. So, if it's, if they ha-, if there's an underlying theme of perfectionism, and they’ve already done their best to have to perfect life, the idea of, you know, snapping and becoming a sexuality change, that might really, you know, push their perfect life, right.

Paul: That's like a leaky roof they can't fix. Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right. Or, um, it could simply be that I just hate feeling uncertain … right. I, you know—Some, some clients I've seen have been very high-powered, very, very incredibly smart—most people with OCD are incredibly smart—um, you know, and is a problem solver. And they just ca-, HATE the fact that this is one they can't solve, you know? They, any other problem, we could, we could find a solution. But this one, there is no indicator, There's no study. There's no, we, we can't, you know, we can't … we can't put it to a name. We can't, um, measure it … right. And so, that kind of pisses them off, right.

Paul: And, and so, what do you do to, to help them find peace with the not knowing … or not being able to categorize?

Dr. Quinlan: Well, um, I often will check in with them, like even before you kind of winced at the idea of uncertainty. So I would ask you … So I would say, so pretend I've never felt uncertainty before. I'm one of the lucky ones, right. Tell me about this uncertainty. Where do you feel it? Explain it to me. I've never had it before. I wanna understand it. Tell me where it shows up in your body?

Paul: I'd be too busy saying fuck you. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Right.

Paul: That makes sense though, to, to, to do that.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Where does it show up? Oh, it's in your chest? You feel like a heavy, gray feeling over your head? Okay. Can we just, one at a time, make a little space for those sensations? Because here's the thing: just because you feel uncertain, doesn’t actually mean it's more uncertain than any other area of your life.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. I'm not certain this roof won't fall on my head. But I don’t need to know, right. Just because I experience uncertainty about something doesn’t mean it's more uncertain than ALL the other things that are going on in my life. It's just your brain picked that one.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. So it's just making, getting them to sort of be able to observe their uncertainty, instead of buy into their uncertainty as if it's so important and it must be solved. Because the truth is, if a client says to me, "I've solved everything in my life," I'll be like, "No, you haven’t! (Laughs) Don’t tell me you have." And they’ll be like, "Yeah. Every time there's a problem, I solve it." But I'm like, "No, you haven’t. Cuz you don’t even know what problems are actually happening in your life half the time." So, it's just challenging those ideas and getting them to be able to see uncertainty as just another thing that happens in our life that's uncomfortable, but we can tolerate.

Paul: I would imagine that most of the … common ones that, that come up … have to do with fear of lost, being unhealthy, or being judged by society or loved ones.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Or … or—all those are completely correct—but or, just not living a life that they wanted. You know. "I don’t want to be—" Let's say you're a homosexual, and they're like, "But I genuinely don’t want to be heterosexual," right. But their thoughts are saying, "But what if you do? What if you are?" And they're like, "But right here and now, I actually don’t want that for my life," right. So, again, that's where we talk about values and we'd say, "Okay. So we, you don't want it. Go and live your life tolerating uncertainty, and just live your life. And ever if you happen to change into a heterosexual man, live your life as a homosexual man, you know. You can make space for both," right. Because if it's what you value, you'll find a way to make it happen … right. So, that's never happened (laughs) in my experience. (Laughs) But, that's, that’s what we're playing with. We're playing with ideas on how can you tolerate this fear. And that's what it's all about.

Paul: Anything else on that one before we play your, uh, newspaper headline game?

Dr. Quinlan: I think the only thing I really feel like we ha-, we need to go over is, there is a second arrow to OCD, too. So, you could have OCD … but then the second arrow is, what if this isn't OCD and it actually is what is my destiny, which is tricky. Because that thought, in and of itself, can be the thing that stops people from actually getting help … you know. Cuz if I knew I had a broken ankle, I would go to the broken, the ankle doctor and get it fixed. But if I have OCD, but I'm questioning whether it's OCD, it's likely I'm gonna treat it with modalities that aren't helpful. So … it's really important that we understand that a part of the symptomology of OCD is to fe-, be afraid that you don't have it.

Paul: I have a fear that, um … I don’t understand love, but I'm fooling myself into thinking I do. And my modality is Halloween candy.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) You eat your emotions?

Paul: Would you, would you recommend that? Because I'm about five days in. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Well, this is … this is, this could be—I'm not telling you you have OCD, but—this is actually presented in my office when it becomes very repetitive. Because it’s another one of those points of uncertainty. How do we know we love? It's not measurable. If you go and ask someone who's been married for 60 years how do know you're in love, they won't give you anything of substance except you just know, right. And so, for you, you said that you're afraid that you don’t understand it. There's no way to measure that, right. And so, the truth is, I don’t understand it. But whether I think I do or not is simply a thought, right. So, in terms of eating the candy, that's cool. Yeah.

Paul: What about finding someone I hate so I know I don’t have it? I KNOW that I don’t have uncertainty about love. Finding somebody I DESPISE and committing the rest of my life to them—

Dr. Quinlan: Well … that'll work for about two and a quarter minutes.

Paul: (Whispers) But I get to eat a lot of candy.

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah. Well, see. I'm, I'm an, also do, specializes in eating disorders. So I'm an intuitive eater. I say go for it. (Unintelligible) Live your life. Have fun with it. Fill your body up with pleasure, if you want. But, um, if you're eating candy or doing any behavior to not feel your feelings, that's where we wanna make some space.

Paul: Okay. I didn't know that there was another way possible.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, yeah!

Paul: You can east candy just for pleasure, not to escape uncomfortable feelings?

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, yeah!

Paul: What is that like?

Dr. Quinlan: It's, it's like—

Paul: I'm kidding! I, I, I (both laugh), I know you know I'm kidding. But (both laugh), it, it really—

Dr. Quinlan: I was gonna bounce that off of you real fast.

Paul: It really only began to present itself, um, interestingly enough, after, um … my marriage broke up. And then that kind of became the late-night go-to right before I would go to bed, is I would just compulsively eat, uh, sugar.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Well, that's an interesting point for those who … One, one other really big question that people ask me on social media—cuz I'm often on social media talking about OCD and, you know, educating people—

Paul: And, and by the way, we can people follow you on, uh, Instagram again?

Dr. Quinlan: On Instagram, so you can follow me on CBTschool, cognitive behavioral therapy—

Paul: You have such a great feed on there—

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, thank you. Or CBTschool on Facebook as well. But one of the most common questions—It's fascinating to me, isn't questions about the early stages of treatment. It's often about people who've gone through recovery, and they don’t know what to do with themselves once they're recovered … right. The, they, they, you would think they thought that they would get their OCD under control, and then they just go love this like brilliant like and like kill it in a, like just love and have such a good time. But there's an emptiness, right. There's an emptiness to not having … trauma and turmoil and … ugh, all that stuff.

Paul: It's an, it's an eerie silence. It's a deafening silence.

Dr. Quinlan: And a lonely one, right, because you’ve been—Even though you hated your OCD or you didn't like your marriage, there was a familiara-, (laughs) it was familiar—I couldn’t get my tongue around that one today. But, it’s familiar and … even if it's not good, it felt safe. And then when you don't have it, there's a lack of safety there. And some clients have even, some people on social media have even said like, "I'm kind of considering going back." Not that they, they're saying I know I won't, but you probably, we do that in our mind, if we've had depression or an eating disorder or bad relationship or a bad job. Once we're free of it, sometimes we, we tend to sort of self-sabotage a little bit, um, because we don’t know how to fill that space. Enjoy feels scary.

Paul: Yeah, because it's a greater height to fall from. It's like I'd rather live on the curb than get a foot off the ground.

Dr. Quinlan: That’s it. that’s why I say being perfect, if that’s your goal, is the most vulnerable position you'll ever be in.

Paul: Yeah. You think of the rock star that’s got … you know, three Number 1 records in a row. I, I would never want to be that person making that fourth album.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, right. Horrible. Yeah. It's the most vulnerable, you know, place to be. So—

Paul: I'll take their money. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Right! You just stop, if you stopped making anything, but that’s what a lot of people do, right. They stop writing, they stop playing, you know. Or they put their life on hold because it’s, you know … Being, sometimes being happy is scary, you know. It's a vulnerable place to live.

Paul: It is. It is. You are open to being lame, being positive—

Dr. Quinlan: Or someone taking it away.

Paul: Yeah. Cynicism is the easiest thing in the world. You risk nothing, and it's just a slow death of … lack of human connection. And you don’t get to … The, the, the feeling of being vulnerable is, is so worth it to experience those moments when you, for lack of a better word, are … you know, when you let yourself go and someone catches you.

Dr. Quinlan: Right.

Paul: And it's … it's amazing. It's an amazing feeling.

Dr. Quinlan: It's the definition of life, right.

Paul: Yeah, it really is.

Dr. Quinlan: Right, yeah. But tell that to someone who's anxious. They're gonna be like, "You're crazy." (Both laugh) I hear it every day.

Paul: Well, I had to work through it. It took me decades of work to get to that, to get to that place.

Dr. Quinlan: I mean, it's funny cuz even though I'm a therapist, if, once, even if I check in with myself, like I start to feel that nauseous feeling come up into me of like vulnerability, OH GOD! I preach it all day long, but if we talk about like us falling, that it's cra-, it's amazing how our body can be like, "Oh, no. I'm gonna send out some nausea to you, so you know to shut that down," right.

Paul: Really?

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah, it's, it's, it's cool. I love sharing that with people beca-, well, my clients especially cuz I think they think they're the only ones, right, that—And it's like, no, that's the, that's how cool our body is. They, it will self-protect to the end of the day.

Paul: It's kind of like Lenny from "Of Mice and Men:" it's very well-meaning, but, uh, sometimes it's not very subtle.

Dr. Quinlan: Uh-uh. No.

Paul: And, uh, yeah. Did you have any fears coming in to doing this interview or while we were doing … the interview? Any self-judgment or, um … I feel like I have kind of disclosed a lot of my stuff. And, uh, if you're comfortable, I just think it would be interesting to have you kinda pull your brain back and show us what's going on.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Well I did share with you my wheelie bin, bin obsession. (Laughs)

Paul: That's true. I forgot about that. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: No. I think, as a clinician, my ALWAYS fear is that I'm gonna say something offensive. You know, I grew up in a very small town in Australia, um, where, I'm not gonna lie, it … Racism just shows up there a lot, right. And, it wasn’t until I went to college and then came to LA, where I actually feel like I was so, I had such a massive, um, learning curve about political correctness. I'm always afraid that the country Kimberly will step out and say … the most disgusting thing. Not that I was ever racist or I was ever politically incorrect, but I've always got my fear that that little girl, that uneducated girl, will come out and just … like … like Roseanne. I’ll be like Roseanne. (Laughs) Like career over. (Laughs) So that fear's always there. I think as a … Are we doing the whole honesty thing?

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: I think, as a woman, um, there's always a fear of being alone with a man … right. Like there's always that fear as a woman, where you're …

Paul: You mean, other than your husband.

Dr. Quinlan: No, with you … right. Like we, going to meet somebody who you know well, but not too well. Like I think, um …, you know … I, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts recently and sort of hearing about women, and I know the Me Too movement. I myself have been so grateful to not have had any trauma in this area. But I think that there's always that fear that you're walking across the street. Who's gonna get you? You're in a new neighborhood; who's gonna get you? So that fear's always there, I think. So, there's that. And, you know, I might completely screw up this at some point. That's a fear always, right.

Paul: You were such a great guest last time, and such a great guest this time. Yeah, no, you're … delightful on the, on the mic—

Dr. Quinlan: Thank you. Thank you.

Paul: You, you bring subjects in here that, um, are so either misunderstood or, um … the breadth of them is not really understood. And you, uh, have such as accessible way of laying it out there in a fun way. And, um, so, I, I love having, love having you on—

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, thank you! I do, too. That's so fun.

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah. I mean … I will say only one more thing, which is, I'm constantly trying to manage … telling stories about OCD and not making it too fun, you know. Like I just love to laugh, and I'm gen-, I, I live up here, you know, like … I'm, most things crack me up. Like, you know, we played that game last time. I talk about crazy shit all day. And I just love it. My clients are like, "What is wrong with you?!" Like, you know. So I love that stuff, but I have to be wary and careful that I also make a lot of space for empathy. So that's sort of another thing that I'm always checking in with myself on. I'm like, what's your laugh-to-serious ratio? (Laughs)

Paul: But isn't that, isn't that the sound, the, the, are, aren’t those the thoughts of a good clinician? That, that, you know, awareness being the, the first one. And it's like if you were fucking up every single day with that—

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul:—I'd be like, "Well! Hmm!" You know.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) It is a ratio that I, you know … Thankfully, it comes pretty natural, but every now and then, I'm like, "Wow, I just said something really hateful. I better jump in there and throw some like gentle, like 'I'm so sorry you're going through this (laughs), that I'm making you do this awful (laughs).'"

Paul: I have a, uh, I don’t know if I will have aired it by the time this airs, but, um, I had a, a guest on who, uh, for a book she wrote, she went out and intentionally did things that scared her, or she, where she would look foolish. And, uh, I just love the idea of that for, you know, for myself, for anybody that perfectionist streak in them. And, I was having trouble with my, um, woodworking machines, uh, the other day. And so, I had to get on technical support. And so, we were doing it, you know, via FaceTime. And, later in the day, um, I texted, uh, my girlfriend, uh, "I miss your sweet face." And I thought, "What if I had accidentally texted that to the, the, woodworking technician guy?" (Both laugh) And I thought, "You know what? I should text that, just … to live through that—"

Dr. Quinlan: Yes, you should!

Paul:—and realize, who fucking cares?

Dr. Quinlan: Exactly!

Paul: You know.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, I can’t tell you how many times I've said I love you to the person at AT&T—

Paul: (Laughs)

Dr. Quinlan:—cuz I'm just so used to saying, "I love you. Bye." And I'm like, shit! (Laughs). But that's what we can rejection therapy. There's actually a whole term, treatment line where, if someone has social anxiety, you purpose—Cuz they're afraid of either being judged, but sometimes they're afraid of being rejected. So we have them purposely go out and be rejected. So if, let's say someone's eating a doughnut at, you know, the corner bakery. You would walk up to them and say, "Can I have a bite of your doughnut?" Not because you actually wanna have the doughnut, because, but because you have to tolerate being rejected—

Paul: The anxiety and the su-, yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: So you should.

Paul: Yes, I should.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. Again, this is just the coolest job ever, right?

Paul: Yeah, yeah. (Both laugh) Are we ready to play the game?

Dr. Quinlan: We are.

Paul: Okay. And it's called newspaper headline? Is that what it is?

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah.

Paul: Okay. Describe it.

Dr. Quinlan: So, um, last time we were here, we played one-up, right. So, we were really talking about like whatever thoughts you have, the best way you can do it is to make it worse, right. Get gritty, you know, make it—

Paul: Embrace it.

Dr. Quinlan: Make it the worst of the worst, right. Like go there, right. This is a more, um, we're talking about humor. This is a more playful way of doing exposure therapy and playing around with thoughts, which is whatever your fear is, make it into a headline, as if you're gonna read about it on the newspaper tomorrow, right. So you could make it like the Wall Street Journal kind of headline, or you could make it like The Onion.

Paul: Right.

Dr. Quinlan: Right. You could go either way. I encourage you to do both, right. So, whatever your fear is, as you're having that fear, observe the fear and then make it into this headline. So, that's what we’re gonna do.

Paul: Okay. Oh, Wall Street Journal. "Kimberly Quinlan's Fears That," uh, uh, "Paul is Unsafe Come True; World Not Surprised," uh, "Ship Him to a Desert Island."

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) And then the subline would be, "All Whilst the Recording Button was Still Going." (Both laugh) Okay. So, um, we should play one-up on that one, too. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah, we should. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: So let's say. Let's say it's a sexual orientation case, and, uh, let's say the person is, uh, heterosexual and afraid he's gonna become homosexual. Let's say the headline is, um, "Man Snaps and Turns Gay While Having Sex with Victoria Secret Model."

Paul: (Laughs)

Dr. Quinlan: And then, and let’s say the subline is, "Model," um, "Quoted: 'Best Lay of My Life.'"

Paul: (Laughs) That one doesn’t seem bad to me.

Dr. Quinlan: It does if you’ve got HOCD. (Laughs)

Paul: I suppose it, I suppose it does.

Dr. Quinlan: Cuz, in their mind, they're try-, often they will compulsively have sex to prove that they're—

Paul: I gotcha.

Dr. Quinlan:—of a certain sexuality. And so, if you had sex with a Victoria Secret model and you still turn gay, well that's a disaster.

Paul: I gotcha.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: And, and so we supposed to do these about ourselves, or just, just anything that anybody would be afraid of?

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah, go for it. Like I said, the, if this is my office, I'd like say, "These walls have heard it all, so go, go big."

Paul: Okay. "Mid-Level Executive's PowerPoint Presentation Ends When Diarrhea Runs Down His Leg," um, "Chairman Vomits and Three People Die Running to Escape the Room." And then the sub-headline would be, um, "Mid-Level Executive Fired, House Foreclosed, Wife Leaves Him," uh, "Dog Has Cancer." (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Dog has cancer! That just finishes it off, right. There is no left, there's nothing left. Right. I love it. I love it. Okay. So, for the sake of that we did scrupulosity, um, let me think. So, like, um, spo-, what do we say? Like spoiler alert, like if this is a touchy subject. Don't let your children listen, maybe.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Dr. Quinlan: Do we do that?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sure.

Dr. Quinlan: Do we need to? Okay. So, "Man …" Hmm, let me think. I'll do—No, let's actually do a harm one, cuz it's easy, right. So, um … "Vegetarian Man, Aged 23, Goes On a Killing Spree at the Local Pet Adoption Center." Ironic, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: The bylines or the, the subline would be, um … "In Jail, 'Finger-Licking Good.'" (Both laugh)

Paul: This would be a short headline. "Jesus Sickened By Your Presence." (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Right.

Paul: And then the sub-headline would be, "Apostles Agree." (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: Exactly! It's a great one for scrupulosity. "Woman Prays," No. "Windows Reportedly Breaking in All Areas of the Church After Woman Accidentally Prays to God, Prays to the Devil, Wishing She Could Have Sex with Him." Subline would be, um …

Paul: "Devil Not That Good."

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah. "She's Had Better." (Both laugh)

Paul: (Long pause) "Facebook Afire with Toilet-Camera Footage of Disgusting 55-Year-Old Man Who Also Enjoys Picking Nose." (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: That is a fear of mine. I totally get that one. (Both laugh)

Paul: Can you imagine, can you imagine … ugh! Ugh! That, there's so many moments in our life where we think, "Oh my god. If somebody else saw this, I would just be so fucking mortified."

Dr. Quinlan: Ugh! You know, I feel like the world loves to just filet me around with mortifying stories. I have so many. It's just like, it's so funny. And I—

Paul: Of yours or other people that have shared with you?

Dr. Quinlan: Of mine. And, and other people.

Paul: Well, hit us, hit us with some of yours.

Dr. Quinlan: With mine?

Paul: Yeah!

Dr. Quinlan: Ugh!

Paul: Well, I'll start, I'll start off with one. I once complained about my knee creaking to a guy who was dying of AIDS.

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah!

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, no!

Paul: Yeah!

Dr. Quinlan: Yeah, I get it. I was pulled over by a policeman while breast pump milk, pumping milk while driving.

Paul: And that's illegal.

Dr. Quinlan: No, it's legal, but you're not allowed to drive through a red light while pumping. (Both laugh) There is a stipulation. You're not allowed to drive through a red light while pumping. That's—

Paul: Oh my god!

Dr. Quinlan:—that's, yeah. And it was so funny, because—And I was like, of course this is happening to me. This only happens to me. Like the funny thing is, he came out and he walked up to the side. And I turned everything off, at least, at that point. But I was still like connected. And he was like, um, "Excuse me, ma'am. Do you know that you drive through a red light?" And I was like, "Yes." And then he looked down and he goes, "(Clears throat) Looks like you have a lot going on, ma'am." (Both laugh) And he let me off. (Both laugh) Like he was so uncomfortable. He didn't know what to do. He was just, I think, I think he was—I mean there's … there's tubes coming out everywhere. And it, this, the weirdest thing. And I could see he was just like, "This is beyond my capacity right now." (Laughs)

Paul: There is no, there is no paperwork for this. (Both laugh)

Dr. Quinlan: "I don’t know what the code is for that one." (Both laugh)

Paul: So, anybody out there that likes to drive fast, just drive to work with a breast pump hanging out of your shirt.

Dr. Quinlan: Exactly. "You're off. You're away." And again, I could have judged myself for that, which I probably did a little bit, and that's mortifying. But, you know, I probably gave him some good obsessive thoughts to be concerned about, so. (Laughs)

Paul: Yes. Yes! (Laughs) Give us another one.

Dr. Quinlan: A mortifying story?

Paul: Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh, none are coming to … Mortifying. I, I can’t come up with any right now, just cuz I think I'm mortified that I just told you the story that I'm … about my breasts. (Laughs)

Paul: That's pre-, that's a pretty good one.

Dr. Quinlan: Everything's kind of, um—

Paul: That might be hard, that might be hard to top.

Dr. Quinlan:—Yeah, I'm kind of numb at this point. No, I'm just kidding. (Laughs) Mortifying. Hmm. No, I'm so blank.

Paul: I, yeah, I think I blanked out most … Oh! No, this is a good one. I think I've shared this one the podcast before. But, um … Ah, it's so em-, it's embarrassing telling it now just because of what a douchey college guy I was. But I was in a, uh, fraternity. And, you know … there was this, just stupid thing called … ugh, it just makes me sick to even say it. But, um, where like if you were really good friends with a sorority, you would go like during the day, you would go do like a panty raid. And , you know, you, you, the … run up and be like, "Oh my god! Oh my god!" And you, you know, pull a pair of panties out of like their drawer. And you would, six of you would abscond with, you know, pairs of panties from the sorority, and then you'd laugh about it later that night at a … You'd have 'em over and you'd all party. And, and so, we did that. And, uh … I was really drunk. And they, I thought it would be funny, if I put on a pair of their panties and just kind of stepped out into the hall quickly and like waved hello to everybody and went back in. So I did, and everybody laughed. Then my two friends came in before I could took them off, take them off, and pushed me down and dragged me by my feet down the hall towards this group of girls, while all I had on was these, obvi-, obviously this pair of underwear that … was WAY too tight and kind of see-through. And—

Dr. Quinlan: And nothing underneath.

Paul: And nothing underneath.

Dr. Quinlan: Oh my god!

Paul: And—

Dr. Quinlan: Camel toe! (Both laugh)

Paul: Camel foot! (Both laugh) And not that I'm, uh, you know, packing a, a whole lot. But, you don't need a whole to, to, um … It was, uh … It was awful. It was fucking awful. And it, and they still laugh about it, uh, you know, uh, today. But, that, THAT might have been one of the most, uh, mortifying, like non- … I don’t think it went to the level of traumatizing, because even I could laugh about it. But, um, it, it was probably the most mortifying non-traumatizing thing that I think I've ever experienced.

Dr. Quinlan: My chest is tight for you on that one.

Paul: Yeah. It's tight for me, just remembering—

Dr. Quinlan: Body parts.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. And not like, and hating, you know, that area of my body anyway. Ugh! Yeah, it was not good.

Dr. Quinlan: Right.

Paul: Let's, let's not end on that. Let's (both laugh) …

Dr. Quinlan: You just, we just basically both said our own, um, sub-, um, headlines, right. "Man Gets Dragged in Transparent Lace—"

Paul: Yeah. "College Student's Treated to Unpleasant Chicken Wing." (Both laugh) Wish bone or whatever you would (both laugh) call, yeah. And then, let's end on that one, cuz I don’t know if we can, we can top that one in terms of, um, (unintelligible). I don’t wanna leave that, that image with anybody though.

Dr. Quinlan: I dunno. Let's just, that’s good exposure, right.

Paul: Ah, fuck you. (Both laugh) That’s so (both laugh) … Oh, I'm sweating right now, thinking about that.

Dr. Quinlan: I feel for you! I really do. It's so hard. Human beings can be such assholes. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Quinlan: It's true. And that’s why I say, I actually say that to my clients, because we're beating up on ourselves for having a thought. But yet, everyone's doing stuff that isn't cool … right. That is in my mind; I'm gonna keep it there. (Both laugh)

Paul: Well … thank you for coming?

Dr. Quinlan: (Laughs) I'll never be seeing you again.

Paul: We'll never be seeing you again. No, it was, uh, it was lovely, uh, chatting with you. And, uh, as always, I, I learned a lot. And, uh, we'll put links up to all of your stuff. And, um … thanks so much.

Dr. Quinlan: My pleasure. Thank you.

End of Interview

[01:33:52] How awesome is she! Just love having her as a, as a guest. And, you know, therapists like her that are so accessible and down to earth and knowledgeable are so hugely, hugely important, um … yeah. So many, many thanks to her.

[01:34:15] Before I take it out with some surveys, I wanna give a shout-out to our sponsor: Calm. You know, we talk about self-care and reducing stress and stuff like that a lot of the podcast. And Calm is a great app for that. Whether it's sleeping or meditating or just relaxing, if you go to calm.com/mental, you get 25 percent off, um, the Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programs like guided meditation on issues like anxiety, stress and focus—including a brand new meditation each day called The Daily Calm. Their sleep stories are really cool. They're bedtime stories for adults designed to help you relax. And I can tell you, they do work. Especially (coughs), excuse me, the one narrated by Stephen Fry. But they have all kinds of narraves. They have Bob Ross now, you know the guy with, with the, uh, big fro that does the painting … super chill guy. "Let's put a couple of trees in here." There's also soothing music, breathing exercises, gentle stretches to relax your body, and more. So for a limited time, you can get 25 percent off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/mental. That's "c-a-l-m" .com/mental. Get unlimited access to all of Calm's content today at calm.com/mental.

[01:35:40] Wanna also give a shout-out to, uh, another one of our sponsors: Madison Reed hair coloring kits. You probably tired of spending your one day off or one of your days off of the week, uh … at the salon, spending half your paycheck, or going to the drugstore getting the generic one-size-fits-all hair coloring kit. Madison Reed makes it easy to match your color, giving you the tools you need so you can color with confidence. The, the folks I know that have done Madison Reed … give great feedback. They say that it's convenient, you do it at home, uh, it's well laid out, the directions are simple, the quality of the color is great, there's no terrible smell to it. So get ammonia-free, multi-tonal hair color delivered to your door for less than 25 bucks by visiting madison-reed.com. And you guys get 10 percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code "mental". That's code "mental" at madison-reed.com.

[01:36:47] So this is a … shame and secret survey. This was filled out by a guy who calls himself … "Ash Ketchum." I believe he has filled out, uh, surveys before for us. He is gay, was, um, is in his 20s, was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment, was the victim of sexual abuse and never reported it. He writes, "I was abused by a student in kindergarten and second grade. Was into it and never thought it was abuse, until I kept writing it in this box over the last few years. Older brothers and cousins made me and my other younger cousin kiss when we were kids, as they all looked on. Covertly incested by my mother in ways that I am not comfortable sharing here." He's also been physically and emotionally abused. He writes, "First-generation Caribbean-American mother and a grandmother would beat us with belts, shoes, power cords, hands. Wring our ears if we acted up in public. Slap the back of our legs, etcetera." And he also has a, uh, really homophobic brother. Any positive experiences with people who abused you? "The first two abusers were friends in school. We had fun, including the abuse. It was literally a game we would play in secret, and I get off, metaphorically, on playing that game in public. The first student and I would play in the class, while everyone slept at naptime. The second and I would play in the bathroom at school. I guess this complications is what leads me to think it wasn’t abuse. I don’t hate my mother, probably. She's a good cook, and when my brothers and I were young, she liked to mother us with food and buying our clothes. But now, she's just passive-aggressive and too dependent on that identity." Darkest thoughts: "Don’t really have dark thoughts. I just ruminate all the time. Thinking about any failure or challenge from conversations I wish I never said. That one cringey thing, to arguments where I just thought of the perfect retort 13 years later, to answers on a test, to choosing a fucking stupid major in school, to choosing a school I never should have been at because I let my mother's shitty lack of faith in me tell me Black people couldn’t make video games. Every second of the day, I'm rehashing something or else fantasizing." Darkest secrets: "The covert incest. The nightly, physical abuse is as a pre-teen, and being a bully in elementary school." Sexual fantasies most powerful to you: "More and more frequently lately, when I jerk off, when I'm close to orgasming, I'll switch from the porn I'm watching to pictures of my ex-fuck bud and cum while looking at them and fantasizing about them. He's married, and the last I invited him over, he wouldn’t fuck me, and I totally flipped out. It was so obvious I invited him over to fuck. We never hung out or talked outside of talking to set up a fuck date. He came over, talked to me about how he hates his wife, and how he thought about being a 'gay-for-pay' prostitute. Watched me jerk off—not to completion; I was just trying to end the talking and get to the fucking—then told me 'I'm married now; I can't.' Then he starts trying to tell me how easily a guy like me could get a girlfriend, if I tried. And all the while, I'm having a panic attack because he's refused me after the aforementioned jerking off and clear booty call situation. When I jerk off to his pictures, I fantasize that that last encounter went the way I wanted." How do you feel after writing that? "I feel like … nothing after sharing that. The worst of this was the panic attack during the event, and I processed all those feelings. Now, I just want to be wanted and objectified by him like I used to be. I just can't get what I want." You know, as, as, as, as I'm reading this, um, I'm, I'm … thinking that … there is possibly a feeling in you that you're worth as a person is in your sexuality and your attractiveness, and possibly that that's also the go-to for you when you're anxious or you're in pain, is to want to soothe yourself with that. And, you know, sex is an awesome, healthy thing when it's used in the right way, when it's used, you know, not as a way to escape from our lives or to deal with feelings that have better tools, uh, to, to deal with the feelings. And, so often we shame ourselves, because then we say, "Well then, I'm a pervert." You know, to me, it' all about healthy and unhealthy ways of expressing feelings, rather than assigning, you know, a negative connotation to it. It’s so easy to shame ourselves and, um … yeah. What, if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven’t been able to? "I would tell a friend that she's letting her older sister walk all over her and giving her way too much power over her personality and life." You know, it’s interesting that you say that, and then that sounds like that could be said about your relationship with your mom. And very often, not setting boundaries with someone close in our life can really fuel the, the acting out or a-, whatever the compulsive behavior is. "I would ask my one brother why he thinks I would talk to him like a normal person when he still acts like the shitty teenager he was when we were younger, annoying me and insulting me for every interaction—" (Coughs) Excuse me. "—then getting surprised that I still shut down and ignore him. And ask the other one how he feels when he and his baby mother tells their daughter that being gay is bad, then tell me to look after and buy her shit." Wow. That must really fucking hurt. You know, it amazes me how people can … not … see that their homophobic views … apply to the person they have in their life that is gay. How, how they can … separate those two things and not … think that that person takes it personally. What, if anything, do you wish for? "A desk job, where I can sit in a cubicle, put on an hour and a half plus-long podcast and do my work, ignore everyone, get done early to work on my blogs, have health insurance, and move far away from my family and New York City in general because I hate this place." You know, there's a saying in a recovery that, uh, you know, there's a term called a geographic, where we feel that if we just move away, that all our problems are gonna be solved. And while some of the problems may be solved of, you know, distancing ourselves from toxic people or enmeshment, we're still gonna have to do with the feelings that are gonna come up, cuz something is gonna trigger them. Have you shared these things with others? "Most of them," uh, in his support group for codependency. That's awesome, that you are in, you are in that. Because that is, support groups—I can't say enough good things about—Obviously it depends on the support group, but, uh … How do you feel after writing these things down? "Feeling good." I love reading that. I love reading that. Anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences? "Support groups worked for me to help deal with changing my thought and actions and figuring out my feelings. Figuring out my feelings, actually addressing that I'm mad about something or uncomfortable, was a huge step to getting to my real issues." Oh, this is so good! This is so good. Do you have any comments to make the podcast better? "I never know how much to go into my past for the first half of this survey, as I'm coming to write in a new, shameful thing. Do I repeat all the abuses each time, cliff notes, gloss over?" There's nothing wrong with putting that, uh, you know, this is the second time you're filling out a survey, to putting that stuff in again, because for one, I have a terrible memory, and two, you know, somebody listening to it, um … there's a good chance they didn’t hear your first survey. So, yeah, that's all good. And thank you for sharing that, that stuff. I really appreciate when you guys go deep like, uh, like you did.

[01:45:42] This is a shame and secret survey, and this was filled out by, um—and this is our last survey—um … this was filled out by a woman who calls herself "Wild Flower." And she is … um, pansexual, and then in parentheses (don’t tell my parents!!!!!!!!) She's in her 20s, raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? "Yes, and I reported it." And also, "Some stuff happened, but I don't know if it counts." She was raped while serving overseas for, uh, a US government service corps. And … I'll skip through, um … it was, it was violent and it was … as you can imagine, awful. And, um … yeah, he was sadistic. And then she writes, "The government agency tried to get me to get out and end my service because of my 'high-risk behavior.'" The lengths that people will go to to cover their ass and protect a corporation or an organization to the detriment of a human being never ceases to amaze me. "Less than 48 hours after my rape, the doctor of the agency told me to …" (Sighs) "… 'Please, please learn from this.' A cohort member of mine, several months later, after seeking a sexual encounter, asked me didn’t I learn my lesson. The judges let him go because I didn’t scream or have physical injuries; therefore my story seemed implausible." Man, that, that is some hall of fame victim blaming and shaming that … you have had to deal with. I'm so sorry. "Some stuff happened when I was younger that was definitely questionable and disturbing, and I realized I could use my body for attention. I've had a counselor tell me it was normal, but it doesn’t feel normal. As I look back, it repulses me." And that's, you know, whether or not something is a common occurrence in childhood, is irrelevant if the feelings they left in the wake of it are still bothering us. That's, that's the important thing, is to separate whether something is prosecutable, or the intent of the, the person that harmed us or whether it was a common occurrence cuz healing isn't … as much about addressing the people that hurt us, as it is processing the feelings that are left in the, in the wake. "Unfortunately, I only have tiny pieces of memory, so I don’t know what actually happened." She's also been physically and emotionally abused. Her mom had borderline personality disorder. Her brother is violent. And, um, she experiences a lot of dissociation. Any positive experiences with people who have abused you? "My brother. He has two children that I love more than anything in the world, and he is nice to me now nine times out of 10. But when he is mean, it's so mean, and it hurts so badly. It's confusing as hell." Boy, those are the relationships that are so … freaking complicated. I dunno why I was afraid to say fucking. They're so fucking complicated because … it’s, we just keep getting drawn back in, and then the knife gets put in. And it, it is, it makes for some crazy-making. "My mother, the same as my brother. I can't follow; I never could. They both hate me more than the others and love me more than the others. As an adult, I am still so fucking confused and it hurts. But I it would hurt more to stand up for myself. I am also bipolar—" Yeah, you know it might hurt to stand up for yourself in the short run, but in the long run, I don’t think that that would be the case. I've never heard somebody regret standing up for themselves. "I'm also bipolar and have ADHD, along with my PTSD. I don’t handle being hurt well, and I don’t enjoy aggression or anger. I'm doing my best to never react to them ever again, but I just can't do it yet. I know they don’t deserve my emotions, but I can't seem to make the situation any different. Growing up, everyone always told me I was victimizing myself. And now that I am a real victim in all of this, I can't seem to fully claim it without believing no one will believe me how badly it hurts." You know, to me … exposing ourself to people who … invalidate our pain and our reality is a way of keeping that wound open. And I think it's so hard to heal when we put ourselves in the company of people that are cruel or invalidating. It's really hard to grow. (Coughs) Darkest thoughts: "I wouldn’t mind cutting my family off for a while. But the kids are my heart, and I currently need the financial support. Just saying that makes me feel guilty (large Irish-Catholic family; I am the youngest of five, with four older brothers). I sometimes imagine myself like Jennifer Lopez in 'Enough,' and training forever until I was strong enough and smart enough to go back to the island and face my rapist, lock him in a room in an isolated area with no one to reach out for help, and terrorizing him like he did me. I imagine water being involved somehow. I would just leave him there and walk out like fucking Wonder Woman, before I broke down and cry. And I would pay some kid a dollar to go untie him. I would also confront the men who cheated on me with my newfound confidence and hot body." Darkest secrets: "I had an orgasm while I was raped, and that doubly makes me want to fucking die and be left to rot." You know, it is SO common for people to have an orgasm during an unwanted sexual experience. And … um, while I never had an orgasm per se during an unwanted sexual experience, um, I did experience arousal. And I blamed myself forever. And I don’t do that anymore because the adult … that was responsible in that situation should have never put me in that place. And … I know … if you're listening, just me saying that isn't gonna take away … that feeling. But I have to say it, because it just sucks that people … suffer and blame their bo-, (coughs) their body. You know, our body and our souls—I dunno. What is there, mace in here? Jesus! (Coughs) Our body and our souls can experience two completely different things at the same time. "Also, the week I was raped, I had slept with two guys that week: a current and an ex. It was the first time I ever cheated on anyone, and I didn’t care about any of them.