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  Title: Therapist Reacts to THE BOY AND THE HERON
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  Description: Summer is coming! Be prepared with MeUndies. Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping, at https://MeUndies.com/CINEMA.

How do we honor and remember those we have lost?

Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright are reacting to Studio Ghibli’s newest film, The Boy and the Heron. They talk about Mahito’s grief and journey to acceptance. Jonathan shares his own experience grieving the death of his mother as well as looking back on life without regret. Alan shares his perspective on regret and his thoughts on Ghibli animation techniques. And they acknowledge Hayao Miyazaki being a master at work, even if they don’t fully understand the work. It’s kind of trippy!

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Cinema Therapy is:
Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, Alan Seawright, and Corinne Demyanovich
Edited by: David Sant
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis

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  Caption: Jono: If you knew the end from the beginning, 
would you do things differently?
Mahito: Where are they all flying to?
Kiriko: They're going to be born.
Alan: Do you like who you are right now?
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Then would you change that?
Jono: No.
Mahito: Mom! I'm coming!
Woman's voice: Mahito...
Jono: The people that I've met 
and the people that are in my life now,
like, are all wrapped up in that.
Mahito: Mother, please!
Jono: I need to be sad. I need to mourn.
If I'm happy, it's like they didn't matter.
Mahito: Please come with me.
Natsuko: I'm not going anywhere with you!
I hate you!
Himi: I hope you know what a good boy you are.
Jono: Remember them, but live.
Because that's what they would want for you.
Alan: Hello and welcome to Cinema Therapy.
I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON>, 
a professional filmmaker who needs therapy.
Jono: And I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON>,
licensed therapist who loves movies.
Jono: Today, I would like you, a therapist, 
to react to a film. You've done this before.
Jono: Yes.
Alan: You'll be fine. Maybe.
Because the one I want you to react to 
is the Boy and the Heron.
Jono: Oh, I might not be fine.
Alan: It's a little crazy making.
Jono: It's trippy.
Alan: It's a lot.
Jono: Of all of the Ghibli...? Ghibli...?
I've heard it both ways.
Jono: ...movies that I've seen, this is...
Because we talk about them being dreamlike 
and that it doesn't have to make sense.
You just kind of go with it. 
And this is the most of that.
Alan: This is the most of that. Yeah.
Jono: Yeah.
Jono: I've ever seen.
Alan: Yeah. Miyazaki is definitely into his, 
I'm-an-old-man-[beep]-you-I-don't-care phase.
Jono: I do what I want.
Alan: Here we go.
Jono: So here's Mahito.
There's a fire out there.
And the animation, they do such cool things. 
Look at that.
Alan: Yeah. Interesting combo.
And I mean, they... Studio Ghibli really early 
embraced sort of mixing traditional animation
with some CG stuff and doing things
Mahito: Mother's still there.
Alan: And it's always in service of... 
the art and the story.
Mahito: Wait for me.
Man: You need to stay here, Mahito.
Jono: His mom's out there at the hospital.
Alan: One of the things I love about Miyazaki movies
is he often includes little details like that.
Alan: Like, he comes running back in 
and the sandal is stuck to his foot.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And it's like, that's such a specific...
Clearly a thing that, like, happened to him, 
that he remembers from being a kid.
And he just threw it in to, like, 
add some ambiance.
Alan: This is so haunting.
[muffled voices]
Jono: And even though it's a heightened
animated reality, emotionally, it feels...
Mahito: Mother...
Alan: It feels 100% accurate and true.
[distorted shouts]
[Mahiko's fast breathing]
[roar of fire and breaking wood]
Alan: And that is just...
That's something you can achieve in animation 
that you really can't do any other way,
is that smeary, like, 
I've had that feeling before of,
like, panic and fear
and just such heightened emotion that it feels 
like the world is blurring around me,
and I never seen it represented as well as it.
Alan: Like, when I watched that scene, it was like, 
Yes, I've experienced that before.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Which clearly I haven't.
Jono: No.
Alan: Like...
Jono: But that sort of emotional... Like, 
how the sound of people screaming is all muffled.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: You know, like there's dissociation happening 
where he's present,
but he can't fully process the horror of it
because it'll be too much.
So there's, like, some distance 
both visually and auditorily.
Jono: Mahito here, this is going to be 
a core memory for the rest of his life.
This is the night that he loses his mom,
and all of these details 
are going to be etched into his brain,
and he'll remember them
with crystal clarity. And...
This is... The day my mom passed away, is....
When I say it's the most memorable day of my life, 
I don't mean that in a positive way,
but I remember all the details of that day,
I remember so many things.
Like, the smells, what I was wearing, 
what things sounded like, so much of it.
But I also experienced a bit of dissociation 
where I was told that my mom was dead,
and my dad... my dad's the one 
who called me to tell me.
It was hours before the emotion 
caught up to the reason.
Like, rationally, I processed it immediately.
Alan: Sure. Yeah. Like, Oh, my mom is dead.
Jono: Yeah. Got it. Understood.
But, like, it was hours before it caught up
Jono: and this kind of haze that he's in 
speaks to me because it was very similar.
Alan: Yeah.
Alan: Fancy underwear technology
may sound a little over the top.
Jono: Breathable, quick dry,
moisture wicking, anti odour.
Alan: When the summer hits.
Jono: And those things sound pretty nice.
Alan: Especially if you're stuck
inside a heron suit all day.
Jono: Summer is coming fast
and you wanna be prepared.
Alan: And MeUndies has something
for every guy for this summer.
Jono: Their MicroModal fabric is breathable
and comfortable.
Alan: Especially on the Ball Caddy Boxer Brief
in its specialty pouch,
which helps you avoid bat winging.
Jono: Or heron winging, am I right?
Alan: Nah, I--  No.
Jono: What did you get, Alan?
Alan: I got the Whale Hello There trunks
And they're awfully cu--
here's a bunch of cartoon whales.
Jono: And I got the stylish boxer briefs
that feature literally everything
I thought was cool as a kid.
There are sharks, there are dinosaurs,
and tacos, and pizza.
There's unicorns... That's actually new.
That's a new interest.
Alan: And they got styles for everyone
with 10 different cuts,
from boxer briefs to jockstraps.
Jono: And over 100 different colours and prints.
Alan: You're sure to find something
that will help keep you feeling and looking cool.
All summer long.
Jono: MeUndies is unmatched in comfort
with their supersoft MicroModal fabric.
Alan: And their even more breathable
MoveMe line with Breathe fabric.
Jono: They use sustainably sourced materials.
Alan: And if you're not happy with your first pair,
it's on MeUndies.
Jono: Or it's on me undies.
Alan: Don't point like that
Jono: It's on me undies!
Alan: Arrrrr!
Jono: Summer is coming. Be prepared.
With MeUndies.
Alan: Get 20% off your first order
plus free shipping.
Go to MeUndies.com/Cinema
Put some cinema in your pants.
Natsuko: So, Mahito, I'm going to be 
your new mother from now on. Sound good?
Alan: So, they've moved out to a village. 
This is actually pretty autobiographical.
This very similar stuff happened to, uh, 
Hayao Miyazaki when he was a little kid.
Natsuko: Feel it moving?
Jono: So here his father remarries his mom's sister 
or, you know, his aunt.
Natsuko: ...have a little brother or sister. 
Isn't that just wonderful? Oh, uh....
Jono: She's trying to make a relationship happen. 
You know, I'm your new mom.
Which, you know, back then was more 
how they would talk about it, right?
Because I'm... I'm the female parent 
who's looking after you. So I'm your new mom.
And now we talk about it with more nuance.
Jono: So I don't really blame her 
for taking that approach.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: But in his mind, it's like, 
No, my mom's irreplaceable.
Alan: They're dealing with Japan at war.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: That's a funeral parade. And again, 
there's so much autobiographical detail.
I was going to say fun autobiographical detail. 
That's not fun.
Alan: But there's so much autobiographical detail...
Jono: But it's fascinating.
Alan: ...that is just fascinating in this film.
And it's so clearly personal,
that I almost feel like I'm failing this man 
I've never met when it gets to other stuff
and I'm like... What?
Alan: Huh?
Jono: Because...
Alan: Because so much of this is so beautiful 
and so clearly raw emotional stuff
for Hayao Miyazaki.
And I respect him so much as an artist. 
I'm like, How am I failing you?
Jono: Because I'm not following what...
Alan: You know, like Sensei. 
Like, how am I screwing this up?
Jono: Well, you know, I think a good part of it,
because I'm sure you can and people will
write entire master's theses 
or college essays.
Alan: Oh, this is going to be studied for years.
Jono: I think it would take me repeat viewings 
and a lot of meditation to even start to unpack it.
Alan: Sure.
Jono: But the beauty of the storytelling is 
it works on a couple of levels.
There's you can get really heady 
and intellectual with it and start to unpack it,
Jono: or you can just kind of feel it as it happens.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Because even though at the beginning 
it's very realistic
Jono: and then later on it's far more fantastical, 
there's still a journey from loss to healing.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And even when you're like, 
What is even happening in this bonkers movie,
you still follow Mahito on that journey.
And here, in this case, 
he doesn't want a new mom.
He doesn't want to move on, 
he doesn't want to move. Period.
And all of this is kind of hoisted upon him.
Alan: Foisted.
Jono: What does "hoisted" mean? To lift?
Alan: "Lifted up". Yeah.
Jono: And "foisted" means it's...
Alan: "Placed upon".
Jono: I know brains and relationships.
Alan: I word good.
Jono: He words good.
English, mother[beeper].
Do you speak it?
Mahito: Natsuko. It's Mahito.
I'm here to take you home. 
Please, Natsuko. Let's go home.
Natsuko: You. What are you doing? 
Get out! You can't be here.
Go back! Now!
[both strain and groan]
Mahito: Please. Come with me.
Jono: She's normally very sweet to him
and affectionate with him.
Natsuko: I'm not going anywhere with you! 
I hate you!
Mahito: [gasps]
[sounds are distorted]
Just go! Leave!
[wind howls]
Jono: But this isn't really her.
Mahito: Mother...
Alan: You can tell 
because of the paper tornado.
Mahito: Mother!
Jono: There are forces trying to keep him...
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: ...from healing. 
And keep him from his world.
It's kind of like... 
Because Natsuko, she got pulled into...
Essentially, imagine if there's 
a Narnia story or a Wonderland story,
Jono: where someone gets pulled in 
and you're going after them.
Jono: where someone gets pulled in 
and you're going after them.
Alan: Yeah.
Alan: Well, and she got pulled in 
after this, you know, kind of ungrateful kid
Alan: who's, you know, pushing back 
against her a lot.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And I mean, she understands why. 
She's an adult. She gets it.
Himi: Ha!
Jono: But the fear.
The fear of getting close to Natsuko, 
his aunt, is that he'll lose her too.
Not necessarily to death, 
but maybe to rejection. Right?
So this is preying on that fear of his.
And that's the thing about trauma
is we're afraid of 
the repeated emotional experience,
Jono: not necessarily the repeated 
literal experience.
Alan: Right.
Himi: Let my sister lying there go home 
with this boy who will be her son.
Natsuko. Natsuko. 
Come. You can do it.
You just have to get up.
That's it. That's a good girl.
Alan: Well, it's... I wasn't super clear 
on the timeline, but Himi,
who's holding, uh, 
Mahito right now, is his mom.
Alan: But she wandered into this tower 
when she was a kid.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: So the thing I don't understand is, 
did she have this experience as a kid?
Alan: And she remembered it 
when she had him.
Jono: Right.
Alan: And is she, like, does she know 
from the time that she's a kid,
that her little sister 
is going to be her son's mother?
Like, I don't know what happened there 
timeline wise. It also doesn't matter.
Like, it's such an interesting, 
beautiful bit of storytelling right there
that, like, what happens 
kind of isn't important.
Jono: Well, it reminds me a little bit 
about that movie Arrival,
Jono: which we should do...
Alan: Arrival's so good.
Jono: Right? But if you knew the end 
from the beginning,
Jono: would you do things differently?
Alan: Right.
Jono: And the thing is, a lot of us, 
we think that we would.
We think that, Oh, if only I knew then 
what we knew now.
Jono: And I'm going through something like this 
in my life right now.
Alan: Uh-huh.
Jono: Where there's a bit of, like,
if I knew now, what I knew then 
would I do everything differently?
And like, the knee jerk is 
absolutely. Yeah.
And save myself and other people, 
like, all this pain.
Jono: But then I kind of come back to, 
But this made me who I am,
Alan: Right.
Jono: You know?
Alan: Do you like who you are right now?
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Then would you change that?
Jono: No.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And then... And the people that I've met 
and the people that are in my life now,
Jono: like, are all wrapped up in that.
Alan: Right.
Jono: And so everything that we go through 
leads us to who we are.
Alan: By the way, if you're not there yet,
if you're like, uh, No, 
I don't like who I am right now...
Alan: Congratulations. 
You're still in the middle of it.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: That's not the end.
You can get to a place where,
like Jono and like me,
Alan: I'm quite happy with who I am as well. 
Not everything, but most things.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And it took a lot of, you know, 
pain and getting things wrong.
And I, you know, I look back on my life 
and I have a lot of regrets,
Alan: but not a lot of changes I would make.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And this is actually one of the scenes,
Alan: where I think the symbolism 
is maybe a little more clear.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: In discussing this with our producer, 
I didn't come up with all of this on my own...
Alan: Uh, scene looks like a tomb, right?
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Your stereotypical... It's a stone tomb.
Natsuko looks like she's wrapped up 
in sort of funeral wrappings.
They're attacking him, 
and then he gets coated in it,
and then Himi burns everything away 
and and is able to start things over.
And it's very much a death 
and rebirth scene,
where he can bury 
the old version of himself
and start to move forward with Natsuko.
Jono: When you think of the symbolism 
of his mother dying in a fire.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And what a horrible, tragic way to die.
But symbolically, like his life, 
his father's life, it all burned down,
and then rebuilt and rose from the ashes.
And I think it's fascinating 
that the real life Natsuko, his aunt,
wants him as a son, wants to love him, 
look after him, be good to him,
and he's keeping her at arm's length 
because he's afraid of betraying his mother.
And then he's got this experience 
where this fantastical version of Natsuko
tells him that she hates him.
And instead of being like, Fine, 
I didn't like you anyway,
he realized, Hey, that hurt.
Why did that hurt? 
Maybe I do care about you.
Alan: Maybe I want you to be my mom. 
Maybe I need a mom.
Jono: And having his... 
the younger version of his mother
Jono: plead for her sister to look after him 
is kind of like, Oh, this is okay.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: I'm not betraying my mother. 
And this is something that I share in therapy.
A lot of people feel like they can't go on
after they've lost somebody 
who's gone, who's died
because they feel like it's a betrayal 
of their memory. Right?
I need to be sad. I need to mourn. 
If I'm happy, it's like they didn't matter.
It's like it didn't mean anything. 
And I just need to be miserable.
And I always ask them the same thing.
If they were here, would they tell you, 
I want you to be miserable in my honor.
And they always say no. They'd want me 
to be happy and move forward with my life.
And I'm like...
That's how you honor them.
Alan: Don't be a jerk.
Jono: Remember them, right? 
Honor their memory, but live,
because that's what they would want for you.
Get your Internet Dads Popcorn here!
This is bittersweet,
which is caramel and dark chocolate.
Alan: And this movie.
Jono: This is actually one
of the more delicious flavours.
Alan: It's really good.
Jono: Yeah. So, check it out.
Alan: So this is Great Uncle... Whiskers.
Jono: The magician.
Himi: And I've brought Mahito with me.
Mahito: Here I am.
Jono: Who built the tower that inspired 
the mythology that we don't understand.
Great Uncle: These stones here 
have not been stained with malice.
Skywalker: I had to travel the far reaches of time
and space in order to find them.
There are 13 stones in all.
You just need to stack them 
once every three days.
You can build your own tower.
A kingdom that is free from malice.
Jono: He wants Mahito to...
Great Uncle: ...create a world of bounty.
Jono: To stay, right? And to...
Alan: Yeah, to stay in this fantastical world 
and rebuild it and make his own thing.
Jono: Which Mahito, at least 
at the beginning of the story...
Mahito: ...scar on my head.
Mahito: It's a sign of my malice.
Jono: He hurt himself.
Mahito: That's why I won't touch those stones.
Mahito: He had bitterness.
Mahito: And I'm going back home 
with Natsuko, my mother.
Great Uncle: So you would rather return 
to a chaotic world full of murderers and thieves.
Soon your world will be a sea of flames.
Mahito: But I'll find my friends there, 
like Himi, and Kiriko, and the Heron Man.
Heron Man: Me?
Great Uncle: I will allow you
to return to your world and find those friends.
Just stack the stones before you go.
Time's running out.
I cannot keep my tower standing.
The Parakeet King: ...like this.
How could you place the fate of the entire empire
upon a mere handful of stones?
No, don't fall. No no no no.
AAAAAAAA!
Great Uncle: Himi, Mahito, 
return to the Corridor of Time.
Go back to your own time!
Himi: Great Uncle!
Alan: And again, I don't understand the symbolism 
of the Parakeet King destroying this world
because he was mad at the stones 
for some reason.
I don't know who that character 
is supposed to represent.
It kind of doesn't matter.
Jono: I think Great Uncle was giving Mahito 
the chance at the throne.
Parakeet man was mad 
because he wanted the throne
and was just like, It's just stacking stones. 
What's the issue?
But he had no patience 
and he had no grace and he had no peace.
It was all just dominion.
And that's why Great Uncle 
wanted to give it to Mahito,
is you can rule this place with peace.
And Mahito says,
Ah, I've got darkness in me too.
I... if you're saying this is heaven, 
and there's no there's no darkness here.
Jono: I've got to go back 
and work some stuff out first.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And I think that... 
I think that was the point of that.
Parakeet man are going to do 
what Parakeet men always do.
Right?
Alan: One thing we know about Parakeet men.
What do you mean?
What do you-- what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Alan: I think the Paradise 
that Great Uncle had built
was kind of an illusion anyway.
Alan: Parakeet man was there.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: There's that hovering black thing
that turns into your typical 
Miyazaki goo that attacks.
They's always flailing goo 
in a Miyazaki movie.
Jono: There's anger, 
and there's violence there, too.
Jono: So here's my read on it.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Mahito goes into this world
Jono: in part because he doesn't want to be 
in the real world.
Alan: Right. Yeah.
Jono: There are other plot motivations 
for him to go in,
but he... that's the emotional... 
A big emotional reason to go in there.
He doesn't want to live in the real world.
He's got a new mom.
His father's moved on 
and he doesn't have his mother, and he hates it.
Jono: He hates all of it.
Alan: Yep.
Jono: And he comes to realize that... 
this world, this life, is where I belong.
Jono: And he comes to realize that... 
this world, this life, is where I belong.
And it's also the only place 
that I can live and do my work, right?
I can't escape indefinitely.
And to me, that speaks to when we're grieving, 
sometimes an escape is nice,
Jono: but we can't live there.
Alan: Right?
Jono: We've got to come back 
and we've got to deal,
and we've got to live 
and we've got to heal.
And we do that by honoring those who departed. 
We do that by moving forward.
We do that by loving ourselves 
and by loving them.
And then, we just hurt. 
And you hurt until you hurt less.
Jono: And that's just the process.
Alan: Yeah.
Himi: This is it. Your world is through here.
Mahito: What's gonna happen to you, Himi?
Himi: My door is a different one.
Himi: I have to go there, 
as I'm going to become your mother.
Mahito: But if you go back there, 
you're gonna die in the fire at the hospital.
Jono: You know, he's just talking to his mom.
Himi: You know I'm really lucky 
to have you as a son.
Mahito: Please don't. You've got to live, Himi.
Himi: I hope you know what a good boy you are.
Jono: It's like back to the future, 
but not creepy.
Alan: Mm-hmm.
Jono: Because his mom 
doesn't fall in love with him.
Mahito: Thank goodness.
Himi: Big sister.
Natsuko: Wishing you the best of luck
with your birth.
Kiriko: Come on, we have to hurry.
Heron Man: Oh, gosh!
Jono: What the hell has happened?
They all want...
Jono: They all want to come into the real world.
Alan: Parakeet men want to escape.
Jono: But then when they do...
Jono: ...they become real world versions.
It's all so fascinating.
Alan: And for a delightful, 
you know, incredible family movie,
there is a shocking amount of bird poop.
Those birds just be [beeping] everywhere.
Jono: It's like you said, 
it's the attention to detail.
Other movies would just have a bunch of birds.
Jono: Miyazaki says, If there's birds...
Alan: Poo!
That is one big pile of [beep].
Alan: And then Natsuko's like, Oh, yay, 
these birds are pooping on me!
Like, I don't... Anyway.
It's a lovely sentiment.
Like he's accepted who his mom is 
and what her choices are going to be.
He's accepted who his new mom is going to be, 
and that he can move on and do that.
Like, it's emotionally incredibly satisfying.
For some reason.
Jono: I think it's because of what
 we were talking about earlier.
He gives her the chance.
You know, You're going to die in a fire.
Jono: And all she says is, 
I'm so lucky to have you as my son. Right?
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: It's that big picture perspective.
Life is full of heartache. 
It's full of challenge.
But it's also full of life.
We as human beings have a need to love 
and to be loved.
And to me, that's the big takeaway, 
is he lost his mom and his dad's kind of distant.
Jono: So who is he going to love 
and be loved by now?
Alan: Right.
Jono: And Natsuko is willing, 
but he can't meet her there until he lets go.
And I get-- I love that he gets to meet 
the younger version of his mom
Jono: who gives him permission. 
That's really cool.
Alan: Yeah.
Jono: So, it's beautiful.
Is this his last film? 
Is that what he said, or is he...
Alan: Oh, yeah. But he said that 
two other times already.
Jono: Yeah.
Alan: I mean, his last film is going to be 
one that comes out 3 years after he's dead somehow,
because Hayao Miyazaki is not going to die, 
he's going to pass into the other world.
So, until next time...
Jono: Oh, Salmon, I want the bones!
Alan: Someone turned Mahito into a parakeet?
Internet Dads: And... watch movies.
Alan: Or just take gummies.
Alan: Hey, we want to thank our Patrons. 
They're really great people.
And they get to see, like, 
extended Director's Cuts
and a whole bunch of other stuff.
People that have names like this one.
Jono: Jason Mauchley.
Alan: Christopher Bremser.
Jono: Hazelbaby22.
Alan: ᴍᴜsʜʀᴏᴏᴍ ᴘᴀʀᴛʏ!. 
All caps, exclamation point. Uh...
It just sounds like fun.
Jono: Chad Haley.
Alan: Just sounds normal.
Sorry, Chad.
  Here are ranges for the difficulty score:
  0.0 - Absolute Beginner: The content uses very simple vocabulary and basic phrases, with clear visuals and context. Ideal for someone who knows no target language at all.
  0.3 - Beginner: Simple sentences and common vocabulary. The video may include some visual aids and context to help understanding.
  0.5 - Intermediate: More complex sentences and a broader vocabulary. Some idiomatic expressions may be used, requiring a bit more background knowledge.
  0.6 - Upper Intermediate: The content includes industry-specific vocabulary and concepts. Viewers should have a good grasp of the target language to fully understand.
  0.8 - Advanced: The video uses advanced vocabulary and complex sentence structures. It may include nuanced discussions that require a strong command of the language.
  1 - Very Advanced: The content is aimed at fluent speakers, with specialized terminology and concepts that may not be familiar to all native speakers.