D Dubbs
D Dubbs
Wish Upon A Star
JoinedMar 23, 2007
Messages14,881
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Aug 25, 2008
#21
I just deleted my whole entire response to your post, but here's the short version:

- We were comparing different ratings. I wasn't pitting ABC and CW against each other, I was looking at each block compared to their overall rating a year ago.

- Pokémon does well at 9 AM on Cartoon Network.

- Kamen Rider Dragon Knight won't premiere in Japan first, since it's an English adaptation, not a dub.

- 4Kids' revenue was up this last quarter, they just had bigger losses from upgrading their Chaotic website and other stuff of the sort. The revenue from the Chaotic TCG doubled from $2.4 million to over $5 million from the first to second quarter, so it's pretty clear that consumers is not getting tired of card games. In fact, it's one of the businesses that has remained stable in spite of a weakening economy.
mumbo
mumbo
Look skyward
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Aug 25, 2008
#22
Jeff Harris said:
[ratings breakdown]
Okay, I concede that the ABC Kids has gained ground over the CW over the past year when in direct competition. So in that aspect I was wrong.

But it doesn't change the fact that as a whole, the CW4Kids' ratings have remained on par with the Kids' WB's a year ago. Overall the Kids' WB got 0.98 on average in the same weeks that the CW4Kids, in a transition phase with some obvious water-testing going on, got 0.88. A pretty neglible difference when considering the circumstances. So the CW4Kids' performance isn't really any worse on its own, though it is in comparison with one of its competitors anyway, ABC Kids.

Regardless, the real testing grounds will be the 2008-09 season, which unfortunately doesn't get into full swing until the midseason. 4Kids will be off to a slow start for sure, the test will be to see how their new programming for the block in the midseason will do.

Nope. Not misinformed. Some episodes ARE done right now, about three or four to be exact. The entire 13-episode season won't be ready until January, but it will launch in the spring.
And they undoubtedly won't receive the season until it's complete. So no, I'm sure they can't show four or five new episodes in the fall like you said.

Besides, the show has pretty strong continuity, so it would probably do better with continuous new episodes rather than having it broken up constantly.

And none of them are owned by Warner Bros. Animation. They could have continued Tom and Jerry Tales and Legion of Super Heroes and they could have aired Brave and the Bold on C4K, but they won't, and they didn't.
The fact that none of them are WBA should be a hint that 4Kids won't have the rights to them come September, so they can't. Why else would they bring back Skunk Fu instead of continuing with the successful Tom & Jerry Tales?

Japan will disagree with you on Kamen Rider Dragon Knight, and Canada will disagree with you on Rollbots. If the cards play themselves right, Canada will also disagree with you on season two of Spectacular Spider-Man.

Canada's already getting the world premiere of Wolverine and the X-Men in a couple of weeks. You DID know that, right?
If you want to get nitpicky, Dragon Knight is an American adaptation of Ryuki rather than a dub, so it's not quite what aired in Japan. RollBots will be premering at roughly the same time (February 09) and I can basically guarantee that Teletoon won't be showing Season 2 of Spectacular Spider-Man first. Teletoon schedules things really oddly, though, so they're hard to predict.

And what does Wolverine and the X-Men have to do with anything?

Yes. Humorous shows work in earlier timeslots. Action properties don't
Chaotic did great in the 9:00 AM timeslot.

Did you perhaps think that 4Kids is losing money because kids aren't really thrilled with a myriad of card-game based series year after year? Kids aren't stupid you know. And for the record, 4Kids has the exact same kind of deal with Fox as they have with The CW. The difference is that instead of one sucker, two suckers are paying 4Kids (Time Warner and CBS).
The Fox deal costs more for less timeslots, that's the difference. That's what Kahn has been kvetching about the entire time.

Besides, only two of the shows have a card game that actually plays a role in it (no, there really isn't a card game aspect in Dinosaur King, despite that being the kind of property it's based on). That's hardly a "myriad."

Why would The CW go with a competitor that is STILL programming their competitor in the same season? That's moronic.
Because 4Kids is basically abandoning that competitor, which with its lineup will undoubtely take a huge hit this season, and within a year that competitor will be completely eliminated from the picture.

That and yeah, the people running the CW aren't all that smart.

And if you like the quality of programming coming from 4Kids, you would feel that way. I've come to expect something other than card-game-based shows and toyetic properties 4Kids exemplifies, and I felt last season's lineup was one of the strongest they had in years. Pity The CW didn't continue to build up on that.
Different strokes I guess.
Spideyzilla
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Aug 25, 2008
#23
PC2 said:
If WB doesn't give a crap about cartoons anymore, then I think it's great that the block is now run by a company who does. And I personally think the fall lineup for CW4Kids looks to be the best they've had since Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh first aired on the block.

I agree WB dosen't care about cartoons, ending a very long era. Goodbye:
Bugs Bunny and the Looney Tunes

Scooby-Doo

Yogi Bear

Flinstones

Jetsons

Batman, Superman (with the exception of Brave and the Bold)

Justice League

And so many others.
Old Guy
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Messages17,079
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Aug 25, 2008
#24
It is true that CW has made some bad business decisions, but at the end of the day what matters is the shows. The reasons CW/Kids WB/4 Kids are doing bad is because most of their shows aren't interesting enough. Hence why it's getting beat by reruns of Hannah Montana. Let's face it, this is Saturday morning. It's not as if they are moving shows around (like the primetime people are doing with certain shows) and kids can't find it. The fact is that they can, but just don't watch it cause they see the ads and say, "looks stupid" and watch reruns of cable shows.

peterg14 said:
If CW actually ended soon and the Fox arrangement is going up in smoke, then 4Kids would either try to move to My Network TV, and since there getting WWE Smackdown! to boost their ratings, a Saturday morning block would help them try and gain some more footing as a network (and since 4Kids already airs My Network TV here is a little bonus for me, hehe.) or stream their shows online and sell stuff like Spider-Man and TMNT to Cartoon Network, Nick, or Disney.

Yea, it's amazing how a dumb little network that began with silly primetime soaps is improving as a result of CW's mistakes. lol.

D Dubbs said:
I thought you of all people would know that putting a show on earlier in the morning doesn't mean less people will watch it.

That's kind of true. The truth is that you NEVER air your best show at 8am. But, yea, 9am is not bad at all. I recall as a kid that most, if not all of us, were awake by 9am anyway.

Jeff Harris said:
In YOUR area, CW4Kids airs like that, but that's not apparent for the bulk of the country. Some are time-adjusted. Some air the block on Sundays. Some don't air the block at all.

And some air it on a completely different channel. That's what happened with me and FOX Kids back in the `90s. It aired on one of the Independent Stations. Then that station became a WB affilate in 1995 (with the launch of the network) and for TWO years I got FOX Kids AND Kids WB on the same exact channel. In other words, in my city these two line-ups weren't even going against each other. Then, after two years FOX Kids moved to another Independent Station for a year till moving to UPN affliate where it remained till the merger in 2006. Now, it airs on My Network TV.
Toon Out
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#25
Jeff Harris said:
Well, that's your tastes. If you want cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment, then by all means you're going to be supportive of

Hasn't "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment" been a staple of KidsWB after they started to air 2 hours of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh years ago?


And again, why would the newer shows premiere later in the season rather than earlier? I'd think one would want to see more than two new series, not just something familiar.
Didn't Spectacular Spider-Man originally premiere in March?


And if you like the quality of programming coming from 4Kids, you would feel that way. I've come to expect something other than card-game-based shows and toyetic properties 4Kids exemplifies, and I felt last season's lineup was one of the strongest they had in years. Pity The CW didn't continue to build up on that.
As long as the cartoon is interesting, the nature of their origin doesn't matter.

Personally, I will wait to see how CW4Kids fairs once they get their own lineup in place with new episodes.

Old Guy said:
And some air it on a completely different channel. That's what happened with me and FOX Kids back in the `90s. It aired on one of the Independent Stations. Then that station became a WB affilate in 1995 (with the launch of the network) and for TWO years I got FOX Kids AND Kids WB on the same exact channel. In other words, in my city these two line-ups weren't even going against each other. Then, after two years FOX Kids moved to another Independent Station for a year till moving to UPN affliate where it remained till the merger in 2006. Now, it airs on My Network TV.

Up until 2003 Foxkids/FoxBox aired on the local Fox affliate before moving to the UPN affliate, conversely KidsWB had for a long time had been scheduled on sundays on an independent station up until 2004, before moving to the WB affliate and saturdays
Old Guy
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#26
Toon Out said:
Up until 2003 Foxkids/FoxBox aired on the local Fox affliate before moving to the UPN affliate, conversely KidsWB had for a long time had been scheduled on sundays on an independent station up until 2004, before moving to the WB affliate and saturdays

It's amazing how affliates treat cartoons, man. Nowadays I can understand, but back in the `90s, for example, it was kinda dumb. My local FOX decided not to air the line-up in favor of news. Why? I mean, most people watch the news at either 6pm and/or 11pm. So, what's the point of airing so much news? Especially when at the time, FOX Kids had Power Rangers and Animaniacs which were the two biggest kids shows. They could have been making so much ad money that instead went to an Indy Station.
Rick Jones
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#27
I don't think I've managed to watch a single show on CW all summer, since Spectacular Spider-Man had its finale
Jeff Harris
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#28
Toon Out said:
Hasn't "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment" been a staple of KidsWB after they started to air 2 hours of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh years ago?
Yeah. Remember the company that brought you those shows initially as well. Now, instead of two hours, there's at least double that amount. And at least one hour of that is Chaotic reruns.

Didn't Spectacular Spider-Man originally premiere in March?
If you want to nitpick, yeah, and they ran out of episodes because they only showed 12 of the 13 for about 15 weeks. Compare that to Legion of Super Heroes premiered with a cycle of four episodes at the beginning of the season, another cycle of four episodes around late October, a small cycle of two episodes in mid-January, and the final cycle of three episodes in March. Because we still have the foolish 13-episode seasons on most domestically-made fare, American shows have a sad lifespan in this country. And when an episodic series like Spectacular Spider-Man airs in a row like they did, the season seems kind of short.

As long as the cartoon is interesting, the nature of their origin doesn't matter.
I completely agree with this comment and will add no more to it.

mumbo said:
The fact that none of them are WBA should be a hint that 4Kids won't have the rights to them come September, so they can't. Why else would they bring back Skunk Fu instead of continuing with the successful Tom & Jerry Tales?
You know how much of Skunk Fu 4Kids owns?

NONE. They got broadcast rights to the new season because Cartoon Network surprisingly ordered another season AND a movie. New episodes means another broadcast venue.

You want to know why Tom and Jerry Tales ISN'T coming back on? It's not because the crew behind the series didn't want to make another season, because they did. 4Kids chose not to renew the series because it doesn't fit their public persona.

So, instead of Tom and Jerry Tales, stay tuned to Viva Pinata!

If you want to get nitpicky, Dragon Knight is an American adaptation of Ryuki rather than a dub, so it's not quite what aired in Japan.
Yeah, but the Japanese saw the original first. The UK will probably end up airing Dragon Knight first about the beginning of the year.

RollBots will be premiering at roughly the same time (February 09)
YTV tentatively has it coming on around October or so. It is their property, you know.

I can basically guarantee that Teletoon won't be showing Season 2 of Spectacular Spider-Man first. Teletoon schedules things really oddly, though, so they're hard to predict.
Well, Teletoon premieres the series next week, and it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least preview the second season before C4K does if not premiere the first couple of episodes before it airs in the US.

And what does Wolverine and the X-Men have to do with anything?
Wolverine and the X-Men is airing in the US on Nicktoons Network beginning in March. YTV will premiere Wolverine and the X-Men in a couple of weeks. They're getting the series, which is ready, first, though Marvel had originally said the episodes wouldn't be ready until next year, which we know now is untrue.

Chaotic did great in the 9:00 AM timeslot.
And Shaggy and Scooby-Doo did better in the 9 AM timeslot.

The Fox deal costs more for less timeslots, that's the difference. That's what Kahn has been kvetching about the entire time.
So, instead of doing what any real businessman would do and renegotiate for a better contract, they actually chose to go to competitor with one extra e/i-filled hour instead? And they chose to fill that extra hour with reruns of Chaotic when they do?

Here's a concept. Why won't they just stop being subservient to a broadcast network and launch their own network? Are they so cheap not to launch a potentially marketable children's network or are they afraid they'll be exposed as a one-card-trick pony?

Besides, only two of the shows have a card game that actually plays a role in it (no, there really isn't a card game aspect in Dinosaur King, despite that being the kind of property it's based on). That's hardly a "myriad."
Well, games play a lot of roles in the type of programming 4Kids pick up. They picked up Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Chaotic, Kirby, Sonic, Viva Pinata, DiGata, and Dinosaur King (the card game based on that property will launch 1Q 2009 with the rest of the merchandising). Properties that they didn't turn into game properties like One Piece, G.I. Joe, and Shaman King were given the heave-ho. The only reason TMNT is still big is because they get a huge cut of every merchandise thanks to their licensing arrangements.

Because 4Kids is basically abandoning that competitor, which with its lineup will undoubtedly take a huge hit this season
Its lineup, I might remind you, is STILL programmed by 4Kids until the end of the season.

and within a year that competitor will be completely eliminated from the picture.
So, you're saying that 4Kids is basically abandoning its other block, at risk of ruining their own reputation and status, leaving behind the fans that still remain watching the block, and creating a negative number in their finances, just for the sake of eliminating them? That's . . . stupid.

If 4Kids didn't have the CW deal to fall back on, then they wouldn't be so destructive towards their Fox block. But, if the mass exodus of CW affiliates (led by many of the flagship Tribune-owned affiliates in New York, Chicago, DC, Los Angeles, Denver, Portland, St. Louis, and New Orleans which have or in the process of shedding the CW branding from their on-air personas) is enacted at the end of the season, there might not even be a CW at season's end.

Then what?

No network means no deal. No deal means no block on the CW. And 4Kids' loss on Fox could be another studio's gain. Right now, Cookie Jar, Taffy, and Nelvana, already looking to expand into broadcast television in the US because of February's upcoming digital transition, may have their eyes set on a potential Fox deal, because Fox still wants the audience.

But stranger things have happened. I bet 4Kids realizes something's wrong at The CW, they will grovel on their knees and try to renew their ties with Fox.
Space Cadet
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#29
Jeff Harris said:
You know how much of Skunk Fu 4Kids owns?

NONE. They got broadcast rights to the new season because Cartoon Network surprisingly ordered another season AND a movie. New episodes means another broadcast venue.

Well that puts to rest that CN was airing the series to cash in on the Kung Fu Panda craze and they would dump it once Fall came along.
Toon Out
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#30
Jeff Harris said:
Yeah. Remember the company that brought you those shows initially as well. Now, instead of two hours, there's at least double that amount. And at least one hour of that is Chaotic reruns.


Yet even after KidsWB stop airing Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh, they still had plenty of these types of shows, anyone programming a Saturday mourning block or animation block in general is likely going to rely on overseas animated fare, since they don't have to pay production cost and only have to cheaply dub them into english.

If you want to nitpick, yeah, and they ran out of episodes because they only showed 12 of the 13 for about 15 weeks. Compare that to Legion of Super Heroes premiered with a cycle of four episodes at the beginning of the season, another cycle of four episodes around late October, a small cycle of two episodes in mid-January, and the final cycle of three episodes in March. Because we still have the foolish 13-episode seasons on most domestically-made fare, American shows have a sad lifespan in this country. And when an episodic series like Spectacular Spider-Man airs in a row like they did, the season seems kind of short.
So we can agree the real problem is the short 13-episode seasons, you will either get a disjointed season artificially made longer by huge gaps or a shorter season where the episodes run concurrent.


No network means no deal. No deal means no block on the CW. And 4Kids' loss on Fox could be another studio's gain. Right now, Cookie Jar, Taffy, and Nelvana, already looking to expand into broadcast television in the US because of February's upcoming digital transition, may have their eyes set on a potential Fox deal, because Fox still wants the audience.

But stranger things have happened. I bet i4Kids realizes something's wrong at The CW, they will grovel on their knees and try to renew their ties with Fox.
In this case if Fox doesn't go with 4Kids, I can see them getting out of Saturday mourning cartoons, maybe go with a news show, Fox jumped the Saturday mourning animation ship long before WB did.
D Dubbs
D Dubbs
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Messages14,881
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Aug 25, 2008
#31
Jeff Harris said:
Yeah. Remember the company that brought you those shows initially as well. Now, instead of two hours, there's at least double that amount. And at least one hour of that is Chaotic reruns.

Okay, now you lost me. You're saying that CW4Kids has at least four hours of "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment?" They only have one hour of anime on the block, for crying out loud. Everything else on the block is either produced by 4Kids or was originally in English to begin with.

Jeff Harris said:
You want to know why Tom and Jerry Tales ISN'T coming back on? It's not because the crew behind the series didn't want to make another season, because they did. 4Kids chose not to renew the series because it doesn't fit their public persona.

So, instead of Tom and Jerry Tales, stay tuned to Viva Pinata!

Since when is it wrong to not order more episodes of a show? The ratings for the show have been gradually dwindling since the beginning of the year, so why should 4Kids order more episodes of a show that's on its way out? It's a logical decision, and if Kids' WB was still around, the forces behind the block may have very well done the same thing.

Jeff Harris said:
So, instead of doing what any real businessman would do and renegotiate for a better contract, they actually chose to go to competitor with one extra e/i-filled hour instead? And they chose to fill that extra hour with reruns of Chaotic when they do?

Who's to say they didn't try to negotiate a better contract in the past? If FOX didn't give them any leeway, of course they'd move somewhere else.

And what's wrong with a two slots of Chaotic? It's the only doubling of any show on the block, which means the rest of the slots are being used to their full availability.

Jeff Harris said:
Here's a concept. Why won't they just stop being subservient to a broadcast network and launch their own network? Are they so cheap not to launch a potentially marketable children's network or are they afraid they'll be exposed as a one-card-trick pony?

Oh, but they have started a new network. It's called 4Kids.tv and right now you can watch over 1000 episodes on their online video player. Why set up a brand new network when pretty much any kid can already watch any of their shows whenever they want?

Jeff Harris said:
Well, games play a lot of roles in the type of programming 4Kids pick up. They picked up Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Chaotic, Kirby, Sonic, Viva Pinata, DiGata, and Dinosaur King (the card game based on that property will launch 1Q 2009 with the rest of the merchandising). Properties that they didn't turn into game properties like One Piece, G.I. Joe, and Shaman King were given the heave-ho. The only reason TMNT is still big is because they get a huge cut of every merchandise thanks to their licensing arrangements.

So now instead of criticizing 4Kids for having card game shows, you're criticizing them for having any show that is in someway related to a game?

Jeff Harris said:
So, you're saying that 4Kids is basically abandoning its other block, at risk of ruining their own reputation and status, leaving behind the fans that still remain watching the block, and creating a negative number in their finances, just for the sake of eliminating them? That's . . . stupid.

No, it's actually quite the opposite. Fans on 4Kids.tv have been asking thousands upon thousands of times to bring back their favorite shows, and that's exactly what 4Kids is doing. You have Sonic X, Winx Club, TMNT, Kirby, the return of Di-Gata, and a few new series (Chaotic and Biker Mice) mixed in with those. This year, 4Kids TV is basically "The Best of 4Kids TV" and even though the new format of the block is in its early stages, it has already proven fairly successful.

Jeff Harris said:
If 4Kids didn't have the CW deal to fall back on, then they wouldn't be so destructive towards their Fox block. But, if the mass exodus of CW affiliates (led by many of the flagship Tribune-owned affiliates in New York, Chicago, DC, Los Angeles, Denver, Portland, St. Louis, and New Orleans which have or in the process of shedding the CW branding from their on-air personas) is enacted at the end of the season, there might not even be a CW at season's end.

Then what?

No network means no deal. No deal means no block on the CW. And 4Kids' loss on Fox could be another studio's gain. Right now, Cookie Jar, Taffy, and Nelvana, already looking to expand into broadcast television in the US because of February's upcoming digital transition, may have their eyes set on a potential Fox deal, because Fox still wants the audience.

But stranger things have happened. I bet 4Kids realizes something's wrong at The CW, they will grovel on their knees and try to renew their ties with Fox.
Click to expand...
Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier: 4Kids.tv.

Over the past four months, the traffic on 4Kids' website has increased exponentially. Within a period of four months, 4Kids.tv has more than doubled their episode streams (in March, there were roughly 6,000,000 streams, for July, there were 13,000,000 streams).

Now, those numbers may seem relatively small now, but if the current rate of increase holds up, 4Kids won't even need a presence on TV within a few years. That'll just be an extra layer of frosting on the cake.
Jeff Harris
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#32
Toon Out said:
Yet even after KidsWB stop airing Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh, they still had plenty of these types of shows, anyone programming a Saturday mourning block or animation block in general is likely going to rely on overseas animated fare, since they don't have to pay production cost and only have to cheaply dub them into english.
You know, after Kids' WB stopped airing Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, they didn't have shows just like those. They had shows like Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get A Clue, Legion of Super Heroes, additional seasons of Johnny Test, The Batman, and a repeat airing of Xiaolin Showdown. A season later, they added Magi-Nation, and they buried that in early morning.

So we can agree the real problem is the short 13-episode seasons, you will either get a disjointed season artificially made longer by huge gaps or a shorter season where the episodes run concurrent.
Yes. Yes we can.

D Dubbs said:
Okay, now you lost me. You're saying that CW4Kids has at least four hours of "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment?" They only have one hour of anime on the block, for crying out loud. Everything else on the block is either produced by 4Kids or was originally in English to begin with.
You know, you strike me as a southern end of a northern-bound moose at times, Dubby. The Russian show, Dinosaur King, and Yu-Gi-Oh are still cheaply-dubbed. A lot of their fare is cheaply made with limited entertainment value, especially to the Kids' WB viewers. They have cheaply-made series, including the Cookie Jar shows. The only show worth any salt on the block is Spectacular Spider-Man, and they're purposely burying that series.

Since when is it wrong to not order more episodes of a show? The ratings for the show have been gradually dwindling since the beginning of the year, so why should 4Kids order more episodes of a show that's on its way out?
It's not wrong not to order more episodes of a series. It's moronic to get rid of one of the highest-rated series on the block. That's what they did with Tom and Jerry. That's what they're going to do with Spider-Man at the end of the season (it's going elsewhere by season's end, and that's from some of the artists' mouths).

It's a logical decision, and if Kids' WB was still around, the forces behind the block may have very well done the same thing.
No, they would have at least have another season of LOSH and Tom and Jerry Tales. The Batman was already dust, but Brave and the Bold would have been KWB-bound . . . but then The CW sold their souls.

Who's to say they didn't try to negotiate a better contract in the past? If FOX didn't give them any leeway, of course they'd move somewhere else.
How much leeway did 4Kids really want, or better yet, how much leeway should they have for programming a four-hour programming block? 4Kids renamed the block from Fox Box to 4KidsTV giving them better brand recognition. 4Kids gained funds from ad time and such. 4Kids programmed the block to their whims with no interference from Fox. What more could Fox do? Did 4Kids want Fox to just hand over control of the entire network to them?

4Kids wanted a lot with the little channel space they've got, though in reality, they're work for hire. Fox isn't going to budge, and they'll be disappointed that The CW won't cater to their whims either.

And what's wrong with a two slots of Chaotic? It's the only doubling of any show on the block, which means the rest of the slots are being used to their full availability.
It's lazy and proves they don't have enough programming to satisfy the contract at launch.

Oh, but they have started a new network. It's called 4Kids.tv and right now you can watch over 1000 episodes on their online video player. Why set up a brand new network when pretty much any kid can already watch any of their shows whenever they want?
That's the thing. Not any kid can watch those shows whenever they want.

Want to know why?

Because it's not on television. And more people have access to television than broadband internet access. A television network, whether it's on cable or over-the-air, would be better received by children than a website.

So now instead of criticizing 4Kids for having card game shows, you're criticizing them for having any show that is in someway related to a game?
Yup. Sure am that. 4Kids is a one-trick pony, and the acquisitions they make pretty much proved that they're all about the games. Kamen Rider is the lone exception, but 4Kids doesn't own that property. They just air it.

No, it's actually quite the opposite. Fans on 4Kids.tv have been asking thousands upon thousands of times to bring back their favorite shows, and that's exactly what 4Kids is doing. You have Sonic X, Winx Club, TMNT, Kirby, the return of Di-Gata, and a few new series (Chaotic and Biker Mice) mixed in with those.
The only reason they're doing that is because they moved much of the original block to The CW, not because "the fans have been asking for them." They had nothing else to show.

Stop celebrating laziness.

This year, 4Kids TV is basically "The Best of 4Kids TV" and even though the new format of the block is in its early stages, it has already proven fairly successful.
Again, stop celebrating laziness! It's not a new format. They're airing reruns on two networks because they think kids are too stupid to realize any differently. And addled-minded folks think they're great for doing so. That's why they could get away with an "all-new" banner on a rerun of Yu-Gi-Oh GX.

Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier: 4Kids.TV
Over the past four months, the traffic on 4Kids' website has increased exponentially.
Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier:

Not everybody has access to broadband internet access.

There are plenty of fans that can't watch shows on the site because they don't have broadband. The television industry is still catering more to the haves than the have-nots, and that's shameful. A stand-alone linear digital subchannel over the airwaves from 4Kids Entertainment with all the shows they currently own domestic rights to would be an instant grab by channels craving digital content over-the-air. They'd definitely get more eyeballs because digital television is mandatory. Broadband internet isn't.
macattack
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#33
Jeff Harris said:
Nope. Not misinformed. Some episodes ARE done right now, about three or four to be exact. The entire 13-episode season won't be ready until January, but it will launch in the spring. And then . . . well, let's just say there's already rumblings of a move to another network by this time next year.

And no, it's not Cartoon Network.

If it is Nicktoons Network I'll scream. I STILL don't get that channel even after switching to satellite. I love Spectacular Spider-Man a lot (I shamelessly admit it) so missing out on the rest of the series after 26 episodes would frankly suck. At least if I never see Wolverine And The X-Men I won't know what I'm missing. But in Spidey's case, I will know exactly what I am missing.

I hope CN gets off their butts and gets the show. The new action block, DAS, or Toonami could make serious use out of it.
D Dubbs
D Dubbs
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Aug 26, 2008
#34
I'm tiring of this argument, so I'll get down to the core.

Jeff Harris said:
The only reason they're doing that is because they moved much of the original block to The CW, not because "the fans have been asking for them." They had nothing else to show.

Again, stop celebrating laziness! It's not a new format. They're airing reruns on two networks because they think kids are too stupid to realize any differently. And addled-minded folks think they're great for doing so. That's why they could get away with an "all-new" banner on a rerun of Yu-Gi-Oh GX.

Of course it was a given fact ever since the CW deal was announced that there'd be repeats somewhere this fall. 4Kids is a small company and can't afford to purchase - let alone produce - 18 new series at one time. They're not being lazy; they're making do with what they can. They're pumping out a decent amount of new material (Viva Pinata, Biker Mice, Di-Gata, TMNT, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, Dinosaur King, and Chaotic) with several new shows on the way. This is actually a pretty decent improvement over 4Kids' output last year, and they would have no problem programming a single block. To be truthful, I think they very much regret buying the 08-09 season from FOX and would rather not be programming it. And because of that, 2009 is when the CW4Kids will be able to live to its full potential.

Blocks are never at their peak when they first begin, Jeff. Condemning the CW4Kids before it even has a chance to find its footing is too hasty on your part, at least in my humble opinion.
Toon Out
Toon Out
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JoinedAug 11, 2008
Messages102
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Aug 26, 2008
#35
Jeff Harris said:
You know, after Kids' WB stopped airing Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, they didn't have shows just like those. They had shows like Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get A Clue, Legion of Super Heroes, additional seasons of Johnny Test, The Batman, and a repeat airing of Xiaolin Showdown. A season later, they added Magi-Nation, and they buried that in early morning.

Not that I was trying to imply those were the only shows they aired but, they also had shows like Spider-Riders, Eon Kid, Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe along with Magi-Nation. KidsWB has never had any qualms about using cheap animation as either filler or as the focal point of their animation block.


The Russian show, Dinosaur King, and Yu-Gi-Oh are still cheaply-dubbed. A lot of their fare is cheaply made with limited entertainment value, especially to the Kids' WB viewers. They have cheaply-made series, including the Cookie Jar shows.
I would be careful in making such statements about what KidsWB viewers find entertaining, considering shows such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh had for a long time been KidsWB's most popular and highest rated shows, and the cheaply-made Cookie Jar shows such as Magi-Nation and Will & Dewitt are remnants of the KidsWB.



No, they would have at least have another season of LOSH and Tom and Jerry Tales. The Batman was already dust, but Brave and the Bold would have been KWB-bound . . . but then The CW sold their souls.
Is there absolute proof there was to be a third LOSH season or that the Brave and Bold wasn't headed for the Clone Wars animation block on CN?



Yup. Sure am that. 4Kids is a one-trick pony, and the acquisitions they make pretty much proved that they're all about the games. Kamen Rider is the lone exception, but 4Kids doesn't own that property. They just air it.
Yes, ultimately 4Kids will attempt to show as many cartoons that they can market and license out, in this regard they are no different from Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, they just have a lot less airtime to work with.


A stand-alone linear digital subchannel over the airwaves from 4Kids Entertainment with all the shows they currently own domestic rights to would be an instant grab by channels craving digital content over-the-air. They'd definitely get more eyeballs because digital television is mandatory. Broadband internet isn't.
That may very well be the next step for 4kids.
mumbo
mumbo
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JoinedJun 9, 2008
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Aug 26, 2008
#36
The Internet is definitely the future of broadcasting, and it will only grow more and more prominent as broadband Internet reaches more and more homes every year. It's definitely a good strategy to build up a strong Internet viewing base for down the road. Obviously that shouldn't be their sole outlet yet but personally I think they're thinking ahead with the building up of their site.

As for laziness, WBA aren't entirely saints in this area. A slight, mild criticism I've had of them is relying a bit too heavily on their very well-established properties - Looney Tunes, DC, and Scooby Doo. How many different series can you make with Batman in it? They don't often bring anything entirely new to the table - Xialoin Showdown, Coconut Fred, Johnny Test (later handed over to Cookie Jar), and what else in the past couple of years? And I'm less than crazy about the last two. They play it just a little too safe, in my opinion anyway.

4Kids isn't very big and doesn't have a whole ton of money, so with their resources they could only use real expensive animation for two or three series tops. Chaotic's new season is looking very high-quality in the animation department. TMNT used to, though sadly its budget cuts have cut down on that.
Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
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JoinedApr 25, 2001
Messages7,303
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Aug 26, 2008
#37
mumbo said:
The Internet is definitely the future of broadcasting, and it will only grow more and more prominent as broadband Internet reaches more and more homes every year. It's definitely a good strategy to build up a strong Internet viewing base for down the road. Obviously that shouldn't be their sole outlet yet but personally I think they're thinking ahead with the building up of their site.
I'm not slamming 4Kids because they have a broadband channel. I know that the internet is a growing part of the broadcasting spectrum, and everybody's investing in it.

But I think that broadcasters are overlooking the potential of the digital television transition. You look at what's happened in the UK with services like Freeview and TopUpTV, and they're offering dozens and dozens of television channels of all types for its citizens free over-the-air (TopUpTV has premium outlets and has a much smaller fee than cable). The folks behind Hulu could offer a similar service Stateside, but they're not. It would be nice though.

As for laziness, WBA aren't entirely saints in this area. A slight, mild criticism I've had of them is relying a bit too heavily on their very well-established properties - Looney Tunes, DC, and Scooby Doo. How many different series can you make with Batman in it? They don't often bring anything entirely new to the table - Xialoin Showdown, Coconut Fred, Johnny Test (later handed over to Cookie Jar), and what else in the past couple of years? And I'm less than crazy about the last two. They play it just a little too safe, in my opinion anyway.
Hi.

We haven't been properly introduced.

I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON>, the webmaster of The X Bridge and have been criticizing Warner Bros. and the units of Time Warner for YEARS.

I KNOW how lazy Warner Bros. Animation are. I also know how incompetant the Time Warner hierarchy are.

I know WBA (let's be real, Warner Bros. Animation doesn't really exist anymore, largely because Time Warner took away the studio's major programmer from them and there's an idiotic "rivalry" between them and Cartoon Network Productions) has been playing it safe. I would have loved to have seen that Monkeyman and O'Brien series they were planning. Hell, I would have killed to see that Top Cat update they scrapped. I'm also not fond of the numerous ways they could recreate Batman and Scooby-Doo. They rarely acknowledge they even own Looney Tunes these days, which is why the originals are no longer on television in the USA.

There's a reason I call Time Warner "the most poorly-ran entertainment company on the planet." Because they are. I may knock 4Kids for being a company dependent on gimmick-based series and such, but I'll never call them a poorly-ran company. They've already proved how lazy News Corp, CBS, and Time Warner are in running their children's entertainment blocks, so they do have that much respect from me.

Toon Out said:
Not that I was trying to imply those were the only shows they aired but, they also had shows like Spider-Riders, Eon Kid, Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe along with Magi-Nation. KidsWB has never had any qualms about using cheap animation as either filler or as the focal point of their animation block.
Spider Riders, Monster Allergy, and Viewtiful Joe came and went, replaced with better shows. And they all aired in tandem when Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were still on the Kids' WB lineup, not afterwards, and definitely not the focal point. Eon Kid was a decent show and not what you call "cheap animation." The fact that they didn't even air the final episodes of the series is still troubling (hey, that could have been a month's worth of episodes on C4K)

I would be careful in making such statements about what KidsWB viewers find entertaining, considering shows such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh had for a long time been KidsWB's most popular and highest rated shows, and the cheaply-made Cookie Jar shows such as Magi-Nation and Will & Dewitt are remnants of the KidsWB.
They're keeping Magi-Nation and Will and Dewitt until 4Kids premieres that Russian show, which will replace one of them.

Is there absolute proof there was to be a third LOSH season or that the Brave and Bold wasn't headed for the Clone Wars animation block on CN?
Yeah, there was proof that there was going to be a third season because the writers plotted episodes before the 4Kids announcement was made in October last year. Brave and the Bold also wasn't going to be a Batman-heavy series either, but the final season of The Batman introduced a lot of the characters that's going to be on B&B to broadcast audiences. It would have been part of a linchpin for the block along with LOSH and Spectacular Spider-Man.

D Dubbs said:
Of course it was a given fact ever since the CW deal was announced that there'd be repeats somewhere this fall.
I think that The CW actually wanted at least four hours to be comprised of new episodes, not just a rerun fest.

4Kids is a small company and can't afford to purchase - let alone produce - 18 new series at one time. They're not being lazy; they're making do with what they can.
Okay, they're not being lazy.

They're stretching themselves out too thin.

4Kids didn't have to produce 18 new series at one time. They could have done well with nine. Five on The CW and four on Fox. They're not responsible for producing every series on the block according to the contracts for both Fox and The CW. Their only job is to program the blocks. The thing with 4Kids is that they have to own every aspect of the shows that they program on the blocks. The shows they don't own outright are often seen earlier in the blocks like DiGata and Biker Mice From Mars on Fox and The Spectacular Spider-Man on The CW. They could easily acquire shows for both blocks from many companies, including Viz, Taffy, Nelvana (DiGata's owners and producers), Entertainment Rights, Sony (which owns the Spectacular Spider-Man series), Marathon, Cookie Jar, and others without having to own a piece of it, but in that aspect, 4Kids is greedy.

They're pumping out a decent amount of new material (Viva Pinata, Biker Mice, Di-Gata, TMNT, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, Dinosaur King, and Chaotic) with several new shows on the way.
Again, DiGata and Biker Mice aren't produced nor owned by 4Kids.

To be truthful, I think they very much regret buying the 08-09 season from FOX and would rather not be programming it.
Well, to be fair, they extended the contract with FOX with no idea that The CW would be scrapping their Saturday morning lineup. They got greedy thinking they could program two programming blocks at once when, as you've pointed out, they're a small company without many resources or funds to acquire and produce shows for both.

They've stretched themselves thin largely because of greed, and it could have all been avoided.

Blocks are never at their peak when they first begin, Jeff. Condemning the CW4Kids before it even has a chance to find its footing is too hasty on your part, at least in my humble opinion.
I'm not condemning them because they haven't found their footing. I'm condemning the CW4Kids block because it was built on 4Kids' greed and arrogance and The CW's laziness. The latter is just one of the reasons the network will likely fall by season's end (there's also the Tribune exodus and the expectations of Gossip Girl and 90210 deflating).
Spideyzilla
Spideyzilla
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Aug 26, 2008
#38
Jeff Harris said:
Spider Riders, Monster Allergy, and Viewtiful Joe came and went, replaced with better shows.

What do you mean by "better shows". Write a convo where he clears this up, naming TSSM