Analyse this discussion thread
(G Replying to an original unseen comment) in total numbers, most Japanese immigrants were Yamato (and most of them from Kyushu from what I’ve seen in immigration registries). It’s just that the first waves were predominantly Okinawan. The Kasato Maru indeed had mostly Okinawan passengers, but from 1908 to the 70s, the Yamato Japanese eventually outnumbered them
And I’m not so sure Japan wanted to export Okinawans to “cleanse” the Ryukyu Islands. It was an impoverished place ever since the Empire annexed it and the Okinawans would naturally seek to immigrate because they lived in the poorest prefecture. The erasure/assimilation of the Ryukyuan cultures was (and still is) being made by banning their language, customs, forcing them to adapt to Japanese culture etc., not by dumping them in another continent. Sadly, Okinawa was firmly under Japanese control ever since the Satsuma Domain invaded it in the 17th century. Japan just unilaterally formalised it in the 19th century
(Replying to G) That’s a disgusting lie, the last king of Ryukyuu accepted the title of Marquess from Emperor Meiji and eventually entered the elite class in Japan. It’s obvious that you don’t know anything about the language and the culture of Okinawa. They speak a language very close to Japanese. If they want to ban their culture, why do they still allow the castles in Okinawa to exist? Do you even know that Karate is from Okinawa?
(Replying to W) Shō Tai was forced to abdicate, relocated to Tokyo and given the title as compensation. It’s not like he wanted his kingdom abolished and annexed
The Ryukyan languages (which are actually six to ten of them depending on the source, not just Uchinaaguchi) are indeed part of the Japonic language family but are definitely not Japanese and aren’t mutually intelligible between themselves and Japanese. Yes, they’re usually called “dialects” in Japan but linguists worldwide agree they’re wholly different languages
About banning their culture, try searching about dialect cards. Or the bans on tattooing and traditional Ryukyuan clothing. Japan wanted a culturally homogenous country during the days of the Empire, there’s no denying that. Just look at what happened to the Ainu
(Replying to G) What linguists say that it’s a totally different language? Have they ever seen how it’s spoken and written? Before the Meiji restoration, not all people from different parts of Japan can understand each other either. Dialect cards are also applied to other Japanese people, not just Okinawans, so stop with your bullshit.
FYI, the Ainu people didn’t even have a government
(Replying to W) What’s the relevance of the “lack of governments” in Ainu societies? Having a state or not, their culture and language have been largely lost nonetheless
And since I can see your opinions on the subject aren’t neutral, I’ll recommend some books so you can perhaps develop other concepts. First about the Okinawans:
“Handbook of the Ryukyuan Languages” by Patrick Heinrich, “An Introduction to the Japonic Languages” by Michinori Shimoji, “The Boundaries of ‘the Japanese’: Volume 1: Okinawa 1818-1972” by Eiji Oguma, “The Making of Monolingual Japan: Language Ideology and Japanese Modernity” by Patrick Heinrich, “The Demise of the Ryukyu Kingdom” by Eitetsu Yamaguchi, “The Languages of Japan and Korea” by Nicholas Tranter, and “Okinawa: The History of an Island People” by George H. Kerr. You can also check Alexander Vovin’s works, he wrote extensively about the languages of Japan and East Asia in general
About the Ainu, I’d recommend “The Conquest of Ainu Lands: Ecology and Culture in Japanese Expansion, 1590-1800” by Brett L. Walker, “Our Land Was a Forest” by Kayano Shigeru, “Race, Resistance and the Ainu of Japan” by Richard Siddle, “Dominant Narratives of Colonial Hokkaido and Imperial Japan: Envisioning the Periphery and the Modern Nation-State” by Michele M. Mason, and “Hokkaido: A History of Ethnic Transition and Development on Japan’s Northern Island” by Ann B. Irish
(Replying to G) Bro, the Ainu and the Japanese people were living together in Hokkaido. The only difference between them and other Japanese is that the Japanese had a government that can establish order.
Have you read any of the books that you mentioned or you’re just listing them because you ran out of argument?
Just because your country is shit, that doesn’t mean other countries are shit too you know.
(Replying to W) you know the Ainu were there before. The Japanese were limited to the Oshima Peninsula/Matsumae Domain and a few trading posts scattered on the island before they decided to full-on exploit and colonise it around the 19th century. If they were the same and lived together in harmony, what was the purpose of the Koshamain War, the Menashi-Kunashir Rebellion, and the Shakushain Revolt? If you’re saying they were the same, I don’t know how to change your opinion other than linking articles about their genetics or comparisons between their languages
Yes, I have read most of the books I recommended. In fact, I have the files here with me. I can send them to you if you want to read them as well and form your own conclusions
And I like Japan, I’m not saying it’s shit, I’m not hating on the modern Japanese, and neither am I comparing it to my country. Most governments in history had darker chapters and Japan is no exception, same as Russia, England, France, China, Portugal, Iran… I simply am not biased and can see both the good and bad things that happened throughout its history
(replying to G) okay, so what was the government of the Ainu people during the Koshamain War and the Menashi-Kunashir rebellion? Or were they just tribes?
Okay, give me the links.
Actually, not only you’re ignorant but you’re also bias.
(replying to W) I understand that the topics at hand might be sensitive to you but you’re not contributing to a civil discussion and neither are you making your points valid. You employ several fallacies. To cite a few: ad hominem (personally insulting me instead of addressing the arguments and providing evidence to your claims), tu quoque (implying that my critic of Japan’s past is hypocritical unless my own country is perfect), straw man (by oversimplifying or misrepresenting my arguments to make them easier to attack), red herring (by introducing irrelevant information. For example, the structure of Ainu governance or lack thereof doesn’t relate to or invalidate my claim about the Empire’s policies), and appeal to tradition (since some cultural aspects are still preserved, such as Okinawan architecture and karate, this must wholly disprove the Empire’s assimilation policies towards Okinawans)
About the books, I can send you the PDF files through messenger. I can also send links to articles and prints/quotes of said books if you don’t really want to read through them.
I tried messaging you right now, but Facebook won’t let me share the PDFs. It says “Certain file types are unsupported in this chat.” However, you can search for the books I mentioned in the Library Genesis site (libgen DOT rs). If you don’t think the site is safe, would you prefer links to articles instead?
(replying to G) you didn’t even answer my questions above.
Just to make it short, how about you say something in the language of the old Okinawans? Let’s see how similar they are to Japanese.
(replying to W) you’re once again deflecting and refusing to engage with the evidence I had provided but at least I wasn’t insulted this time. Also, this discussion seems too one-sided, doesn’t it? You stil haven’t presented evidence for your claims. Again, I reiterate that the Ryukyuan languages are part of the Japonic language family. They are related but definitely not the same or simply different dialects of the same language. It’s like French and Italian, which have the same Latin origins but aren’t mutually intelligible. Here are simple examples of the sentence “I ate a fish I caught from a river”
Japanese - Kawa de tsukamaeta sakana wo tabeta
Amami - Kawa muintukkyaatta yunu ga tabeta
Okinawan - Kaa yasshi totta yuunu kuta
Miyako - Kaa fïntsumayata yuun ta
Yaeyama - Kaa yanu totta yuunu kanda
Yonaguni - Kaa dun totta yun nu ta
(replying to G) What did I deflect? It was you who didn’t answer my questions.
Are you sure it wasn’t mutually intelligible? By that sense, then probably there’s no such thing as a language in this world, because they might vary depending on the region.
You can’t write it in Japanese? Both the language of the old Okinawa and Japanese don’t use latin characters.
(replying to W) They were tribal. And? What was the purpose of your mention to them not having a formal organised government? Their culture and language were still suppressed by the Empire, which was my argument against you stating that they "were living together in Hokkaido. The only difference between them and other Japanese is that the Japanese had a government that can establish order."
Again with the straw man? Nice argument, you keep misinterpreting what mutual intelligibility means
Yes, I can write in Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana. However, the Japanese writing system isn't as accurate to represent certain sounds present in other languages. For example, "Fa, Fi, Fe, Fo" and the glottal stop [ʔ], all present in the Ryukyuan languages, have no full Japanese equivalent and the Ainu word "Mosir" (pronounced as IPA [mò̞ꜛsíɾ]) is written as モシㇼ (moshiri). Writing is only a form of representing spoken language. Cantonese, Hokkien, and Mandarin are different languages, yet written with Hanzi, and Korean used to be written with Chinese characters as well, not to mention Japanese before the development of the kana. Basque and Swedish are both written in the Latin alphabet, but they're not the same, are they?
I really wanted to see you proving your points with well-constructed arguments and evidence, but I can see this lengthy discussion is getting us nowhere. Have a good day bro