分条目，详细总结
(18) Rethinking Islam: Seth Andrews interviews Adam Elmasri on ‪@TheThinkingAtheist‬ - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBkdIKIN1BY

Transcript:
(00:01) Adam elmassry is a YouTube host he's got two channels one in Arabic and one in English his website describes him as an Australian Egyptian freethinker speaker human rights activist author and content creator he has been on the debate scene he founded Faith crisis Australia and this is an organization to help ex-christians as they navigate their post-religious life his most recent book is titled how did Christianity begin really published in Arabic he is a registered therapist with the secular therapy project and he
(00:42) also serves recovering from religion. org Adam I guess we don't have time to talk now that I've given your resume for about 45 minutes at the beginning of the conversation Adam it's great to talk to you thanks for coming thank you so much for the wonderful introduction I guess uh you're you're all over the place and I mean this in a good way on your resume I'm saying all right I got Australian I got Egyptian I got Islam I got Christianity I just see this sort of convergence and it makes me like pause
(01:28) at the beginning where do I start can we can we start with Islam would that be all right with you Adam absolutely so let's start with terms I hear Muslims I see Muslims online they quote from the Quran and the Hadith what's the difference does Islam have like two Bibles the Quran is the holy book think about it as you think of the Bible it is the official holy book that was apparently revealed from God the Hadith is the um sayings that are attributed to the prophet um so most most of the Hadith come through
(02:08) a chain of narratives think of the Disciples of Christ it's in the same sense that anything the Disciples of Christ said about Christ that would be the Hadith is it to be understood or assumed that Muhammad wrote all of the Quran wrote is a very uh tricky word here um so officially God is the author of the Quran So when you say who wrote the Quran it's supposed to be God um but yeah transmitted through Muhammad that would be the um the the official way of saying it well they say the same thing for the Bible Moses wrote the penet so
(02:51) Moses could not have been there before SpaceTime before the creation of the earth and the first humans so therefore God was sort of you know grabbing Moses after the fact act and saying okay here's what happened and he sort of guided Moses's hand it's that kind of thing with Muhammad and the Quran I that yes and no um in the Bible what most Christians believe it was inspired by God God guided Moses revealed to him in a in an ethereal sense while in the Quran Muslims believe that it is actually the literal words of God it was
(03:25) verbatim it it's like a dictation so God dictated every word word and every letter of the Quran not in the sense of inspiring some details and left the rest for the human touch there is no human touch in the Quran and the Hadith was that written in the same way allegedly no the Hadith is act the actual sayings of the Prophet so so there's no dictation here um it's a chain of narration and then the the Hadith has massive classification they call it actually the science of classification in Islam where the they there are there
(04:01) is authentic Hadith there is weak Hadith there is somewhere in between semi-authentic and it's it all comes down to the chain of narrators who said what and in what way and to what level they were known to be accurate in repeating the Chinese Whispers if you want to if you want to call it that way like the Bible too wait now hang on like we've got the NIV Bible and The New American Standard and the King James and the new King James and all of these thousands of different variations any of that going on with the Quran or is it
(04:36) one thing and you better not not change it or we'll execute you kind of thing absolutely it's the same thing in the Quran while the funny thing Seth I'm glad you ask that because most Muslims will tell you that no actually the Quran wherever you buy it anywhere in the world it's going to be exactly the same Quran but this is absolutely not true it depends where you buy the Quran from there are two major copies it's like the King James the King James is the most known Bible everywhere in the world so
(05:04) that there is and for the Quran these are two different uh versions of the Quran and uh you will find them most spread however if you go to countries like Algeria or Iran or uh Yemen you might get your hands on some interesting um versions of the Quran there is about as far as I know there is about somewhere between 27 to 33 three different versions of the Quran you were born in Egypt is that correct correct yes to a Muslim family no I was born and raised Christian I I am a Coptic Orthodox chrisan well I was a Coptic Orthodox
(05:45) Christian what's a Coptic Orthodox Christian Coptic is the word it's an ancient word for basically Egyptian because you know how you say Russian Orthodox or Greek Orthodox usually the first country the first word refers to a country or a geographic region while the second word is the denomination of Christianity that I belong to so Coptic basically means Egyptian and Orthodox is orthodox so I'm Egyptian Orthodox Christian so if Islam is the predominant religion in Egypt and you are in a minority Faith how are you
(06:19) treated very interesting um ah sorry let's let me think to answer that question are you second class are you worried for your safety uh when you know you are walking the streets and someone sees I don't know are you overtly Christian do you have Christian apparel or you know in the states we have Christian markers that people like whether it's the cross necklace or the crown of thorns tattoo let's say you're broadcasting your Christianity in the streets what kind of a reception do you expect so funnily enough I do have the
(06:59) Coptic Christian too I'm not sure if it is visible on my uh wrist here but uh this is something most Coptic Christians in Egypt would have at a very young age I had this tattoo when I was 12 years old um it's kind of our way of um putting the faith on our um in a visible way it's it's kind of revealing your identity in a way and it's funny because when you say are you a second class citizen or are you treated differently will it depends on the context and who's treating you are you in a dealing with a
(07:35) government organization are you talking about down the street dealing with everyday people if let's put it this way in many many occasions I was always on edge and not sure of the person treating me whether that is the guy selling me stuff in the shop or just the next door neighbor whoever it is you always have this sense of I'm a second class Citizen and it depends on the person in front of me how they will treat me I don't know that so so you always have your guards up in a way if that makes sense yeah it does it
(08:10) totally makes sense there's a couple of other things um funny about Egypt is that one thing even if you don't have the cross tude on on your hand um your name could very well reveal your uh your religion um if your name is Michael or Gus or Paul you're surely is Christian uh if your name is Ali or Muhammad or any other Muslim you surely Muslim so sometimes your name will just reveal your uh religious affiliations and the last thing is it's it's also on your ID card um that's also unique to
(08:49) Egypt I'm not sure if it is in any other Arab country or not but if a policeman stops you and asks for the ID in on your ID card it says if you are Christian or Muslim are you allowed to put no no preference no religion on your ID in Egypt there is no such thing you're you're either you're either Christian or Muslim or or Jew but I've never seen it on any ID but you're allowed technically okay so with the name Adam El massre are you named after the biblical Adam I mean would that give you away well in in a way yes
(09:26) Adam is a very common name in in Egypt well in the whole Middle East so yes I'm I'm named after the the great Adam so I'm going to ask you the obvious next question that I ask all Heathen activist or even humanist activist you had a deconstruction because you're helping others but how did you get out of the faith it was my own faith crisis I think about uh 10 years ago um it's always hard to answer that question Seth because you never go to bed one Tuesday night thinking you're Christian and then
(10:02) you wake up Wednesday morning I'm like I'm not anymore um so I guess I went through a phase of doubt and questioning myself and I read a lot and it was very very troubling and um it was an inner turmoil that led me eventually to join a very reputable University in Australia to do a degree in biblical studies and textual criticism um mainly for my own benefit because I didn't want to leave my faith coming from a place of ignorance I I really wanted to throw myself into more knowledge and by the end of that degree
(10:40) I openly declared myself agnostic um and from there different things led me in different ways were there consequences for you family friends your Social Circle massive consequences um the first thing is I I was um excommunicated I I lost my entire Social Circle because my whole life was entrenched in the church so um overnight I didn't have any friends at all zero friends um it also led into my divorce so I I was married at the time when when I had my faith crisis and then eventually um that led to a divorce
(11:22) I had some hiccups with my family uh mom and dad and brother they they are all living in Australia and it took some time to restore the relationship with them and luckily for me uh it eventually got to the point that they just accepted who I am and it's my own personal Journey uh there was no shunning but there was you know that they always have this idea that you probably read a couple of books that messed with your head so we will convince you once we just uh if you come and sit with Bishop such and such or
(11:52) priest such and such they will restore your faith but more and more they realize that I know I know more than they can than than they can restore I guess it's interesting how these cultures like to pinball toward Authority with a capital A cuz I had the same thing I'm coming out and I'm realizing that 2 plus 2 did not actually equal five and that all this stuff doesn't make sense and people started throwing names apologists books uh someone asked me to attend an apologist seminar because they have I don't know a
(12:29) theology degree somehow even before they heard him speak they knew he would speak the truth and perhaps I might learn the truth they lean into these authorities and personal thinking seems to shut down I don't know have you noticed that Adam I do um and I had this dual understanding I I could see for the first time how I saw these people are just mere humans after all while my family still thought of them as holy figures that they are the bearers of of light they are the bearers of Truth so it was it was very
(13:06) interesting at that time because I I just came out of the faith I held these people at some point in my life as as holy people and the bear of Truth and if I needed to ask about anything I would go to the priest or to the bishop or whoever it is now I'm going to an academic and I'm going to University to to secular um uh academics to to to get my answers from and it was at that time that I started saying wow I'm my world view has changed and I'm seeing things for the first time completely different from my family it's
(13:39) funny how we are so conditioned to respond to give extra Equity to somebody who begins with the introduction Reverend Pastor minister at least in the United States and I tell this story forgive me if you've heard it everybody who is watching and listening but free flow the Florida free thought convention in Orlando was having its convention and there was a Friday night costume party and I went as a priest and so I got a very authentic priest outfit and I wore it out of my hotel room and got into the elevator went all
(14:18) the way down walked through the lobby down the corridors and to the party well on my way you should have seen how people deferred to me I had no idea who I was they had no idea what my degree might have been and I could have been a serial killer a child M they have no idea but I walk into the elevator and everybody's rockus and they're all swapping stories and laughing and they went Stone quiet and start almost looked at the floor reverence toward me someone asked me if a patron had died in the hotel and I was there to perform like
(14:54) last right and I thought to myself the power that the clerics hold just perceptions of credibility Jim Palmer is a guy who he's not religious but spiritual and he and I have our disagreements but he says a lot of interesting and sometimes really good stuff but he says you know somebody who has a pastoral title has no real credibil is not more credible than anybody else I don't know I'm babbling Adam do you have any thoughts on the imams and the clerics and the pastors and the Reverend I probably will say
(15:30) exactly what you just said it's it's it's it's so funny how in especially in the Middle East like you're you're describing how it is in in America in the Middle East it's it's multiplied by 10 uh how how these people are very much regarded at a at a higher uh level but since you're talking about your friend as well who is spiritual but not religious I went through that phase um when I came out as I it's like morphing it's not like I know I said by the end of my degree
(16:02) degree I openly declared myself agnostic but there was a phase in between where I couldn't be completely spiritually naked in a way I needed something to hang on to so I went out of Christianity hanging onto some spiritual elements out there before I really could have the guts to declare myself agnostic or agnostic atheist whatever you call it I think it makes total sense I always say that you're in in the center of the bullseye which is high control religion fundamental literalist you know Bible Quran
(16:35) literalist but you start to doubt and you take the next step well the Bible is partially true or some of its metaphor and then before you know it you take the next step and you say well it's not a religion I don't really need the Bible I love Jesus and then maybe you take the next step and say well Jesus may have been God but he had some good things to say and blah blah blah and then you end up near the end and the next steps are there may be no God that's terrifying and it's totally understandable why
(17:05) people would pause there in this nebulous area of well I think there's something out there and I'm not religious but I'm spiritual I think that's a position of safety because for many the next steps are pretty scary and in your work as a secular therapist you probably see a lot of that I'm terrified to go the distance I think maybe I'll just sort of sit here in the neutral zone right totally yeah and this is the huge difference you find between Adam the activist and Adam the secular therapist because Adam the activist Adam
(17:39) on YouTube on my YouTube channels I I promote critical thinking I challenge scriptures and um I basically um debunk a lot of beliefs on my channel but when it comes to therapy my role is not to debunk anything or challenge anything it's my role is actually to meet the person with where they're at and it's it's a completely different um different position and it requires a lot of discipline because at that point you're basically trying to validate where where this person is at you're trying to
(18:14) assure them that they they're not going insane for doubting they have every reasonable reason to to doubt uh how they're doubting and where they're at and I get all sorts of different people um some people who want to leave Islam and Embrace Christianity some people who want to leave the religion altoe um so yeah it's it's a it's an interesting world where where you do the work as a as a religious trauma therapist speaking here with Adam El massri he is a former religious person and um he is helping people in their own
(18:50) Journeys two YouTube channels are they Echoes of each other I mean do you do a version of one video in English and then it's the same content in Arabic no um I started the Arabic channel about seven or eight years ago and when I started it I started it just because I was I I wanted to share my experience with others I wanted to find like-minded people who had a similar journey to mine and it was my way to connect and share my two cents worth little that I knew at the time that it will grow into over 100,000
(19:27) subscribers 120 now I guess 15 million views it grew be beyond my expectations and it wasn't until about two years ago that I realize it hang on a second here yes while I'm doing this work in Arabic there is a huge gap in the English speaking World specifically to understand Islam from an Arabic speaking person um so so the material that I present on both channels are in a way completely different I focus on certain topics on the Arabic channel that is suited for the Arabic speaker while in the English world I try to
(20:06) present my arguments in slightly different way more focused on Islam and more suited to the Western yeah to the Western World sure sure I understand I mean we are a different audience you have to I think condition us you have to educate us in a different way from your perspective do people doubters even apostates atheists in high control let's say one of the 13 Islamic Nations right with Islamic governments do they have access to your channel are they down in the basement looking you up online and watching you and then
(20:41) secretly reaching out it depends who the person and what which country they come from so I can tell you that there are some people let's say in in Egypt um a lot of people are just watching me in the privacy of their own bedroom or office uh usually my videos are watched in private because no one is open about um their current state of belief but then you have um a country like Afghanistan for instance uh this is a country that officially I received a number of emails from YouTube saying that a government body in
(21:17) Afghanistan has requested for this video to be banned in their country and I have about 50% of my channel banned in Afghanistan yet I receive messages from people from afgh saying well don't worry brother we will use VPN or we found ways to browse your videos and still watch you uh through the VPN so it depends how Tech heavy the person is it depends what country and what length they go to ban your material so you do videos pointing out things like mistakes in the Quran and then what do you go down to your bunker and lock the door because
(21:53) you know people have declared war on you do you worry about your safety I always have to ask this to people taking on Islam do you worry about somebody who's going to exact Allah's Justice against your physical body there is I have to be honest there is a level of concern yes um not to the level that I'm am worried looking over my shoulder all the time but I received uh death threats I received um emails and messages from lawyers in Egypt saying that under the blasphemy law they filed cases against me in the
(22:28) court so so one thing I am actually I'm unable to go and visit my home country I cannot go to Egypt because if I go to Egypt I'll probably be arrested in the airport um I never had the opportunity to be 100% sure if there are cases against me or not but according to the messages that I received there are cases against me in the court under the blasphemy law um I have reached out to the Australian federal police a couple of times to report death threats that I received but that's more out of being
(22:59) wise and being cautious in a way I try to stay private um I'm not living in a bunker or anything yeah you're not crawling to the car in the prone position looking okay so I open that can of worms mistakes and misstatements myths and lies in the Quran uhoh I'm going to have to ask for some examples because I always heard the Quran was perfect the perfect word of Allah what are we talking about I can't remember what I presented in that particular video but I can tell you a lot of mistakes in the Quran
(23:31) specifically um there are historical mistakes there are scientific mistakes um in the Quran it really depends I can give you one example of each if you wish sure so one one good example since I'm from Egypt there's a verse in the Quran where uh Pharaoh is calling someone named ham and um he's asking him to bake breaks to build a massive Tower to go up in the skies and um find out about the God of the god of Moses so Pharaoh was apparently jealous from the god of Moses and wanted to B to build a tower using
(24:11) baked clay to reach the heavens and in in that video I I'm arguing that if only the author of the Quran knew that the ancient Egyptians never built high rises and high Towers using baked Clays ABC engineering would say that the baked clay or the baked bricks will will crumble uh under the the heavy weight of the structure so the Egyptians knew that but the author of the Quran didn't know that um and of course I get all sorts of apologetic responses trying to say well you're you're trying to say that
(24:43) Egyptians didn't use baked clay or baked bricks I'm like that's not the argument the argument I never said that Egyptians didn't use baked clay but they never used it in high rises specifically if the author of the Quran knew that the pyramid one stone in the pyramid weighed about 5 tons wouldn't have said such a a verse so that is one historical error in the U in the Quran a scientific error in the Quran and again there's a lot of reputations and apologetic respon well refutation attempts and apologetic response about
(25:17) um how a character in the Quran named as D apparently went to the far edges of the earth and found the place where the sun sets and it was setting in murky Waters and while it it's very clear scientific error um again people try to refute it and say Well it what it appeared to D in in his eyes in the way he saw it that it was setting in murky Waters but that's not what the Quran is saying and again I don't know to what length you want me to present the arguments and the refutations and the responses oh it sounds just like the U
(25:54) Christianity apologists know if it if it happens tell line up with history it verifies the Bible if it doesn't it's a mistranslation misinterpretation metaphor or the science in historians are all colluding to you know try to kill God I don't know it's silly putty they can just sort of mash it into whatever they want doesn't the Quran say and I'm doing this from memory and it's early and I need more coffee but doesn't it say the origin story of humankind is uh the first human was harvested from a
(26:26) from a clot of blood instead of Adam and dirt was it a clot of blood in the Quran you're you're it's yes and no it doesn't necessarily talk about Adam as the first human but it talks about the how how humans are created in the womb and uh yes it it says that all human beings they start from being a clot of blood in the womb which is absolutely wrong you should never get your science from Superstition books this is just but when you bring these contradictions and problems and morality issues to Muslims
(27:04) given the fact that I think as I'm to understand it most Muslims are like most Christians they're scripture illiterate and they'll parot a few cherry-picked things maybe even chanting them I've heard a lot of Muslims do this it's almost a uh like listening to a parrot an apologist parrot where they've just got this thing and you know and and God is good all will be great kind of thing does it make a Dan with anybody when you point this stuff out I have to say Seth that I found Muslims to be much more literate about
(27:37) their books uh more than Christians um it's often the case that you would reveal a verse in the Bible and a Christian believer wouldn't have a clue or it's the first time they heard this verse but um it's hardly the case with uh Muslims perhaps that's because part of the Islamic faith is to memorize uh the Quran so most of them whether they understand it fully or not that's a different question but they they do remember the verses and sometimes you you get this stoned face where they heard the verse
(28:10) before they they recited it million times before but they never really pondered upon the meanings um and the moment you reveal something they're like no no no no you got it wrong the first point of attack is that you're not an Arabic speaker and once I revealed that actually I I was born and raised then grew up in Egypt I am an Arabic speaker they're like uh you still you're you're not understanding it correctly and you get into a different type of argument so if they read the story of Muhammad marrying a
(28:39) six-year-old and then molesting the child at nine for to be honest many people are quoting that but they're not really going P they're not scratching past the surface and perhaps you have the conversation that causes them to consider what they just have been parting in the past and then they have that moral dilemma would that be an example of what you're talking about not with this particular example because this particular story about Muhammad marrying a child has been exhausted over and over and and it's
(29:12) kind of there's this level of stubbornness to to see the argument funny that you raised that because literally today I was watching a video by an a Muslim apologist known as Alid dawa and he was talking about this he he lives in the UK and most of his work is in the UK and he was arguing that what did the prophet do wrong if in the UK in in in Britain Great Britain 100 years ago um if you read the the law and he presented I cannot repeat what he said verbatim but he was arguing that in the UK uh child marriage was allowed up to
(29:49) 100 or 150 years ago and the the minimum age was 12 years old or something like that so he says if you go back and see in the context of time of the time that it happened the prophet didn't make anything wrong this is a very very famous and well-known argument so this is not the example that I would get people having an aha moment or or being shocked most of my arguments are around areas um related to other things like women's rights in in Islam uh things related to female genital mutilation marital rape um inequality under the
(30:27) justice system these are the things that the average Muslim probably never heard about or or have minimal knowledge around it is child marriage epidemic in Islam dominant Nations and even Beyond in Islamic culture child marriage something beyond the fringes it is but then you get the contradiction it's such a it's such a cognitive dissonance because if you look at a country like Egypt for instance child marriage is illegal by the law however it's it's happening right left and Center and you will find marriage
(31:00) celebrants and and you will find people to do the work and you can register the marriage and you can forge the the age of the child and you can go about it completely legal despite the fact that it is ill illegal um in the books of law so is it is it an epidemic yes it is U but at the same time someone can argue that how it is an epidemic when the country is actually considering it unlawful speaking here with with ex-christian and human rights activist Adam El massre you have a video that's titled the quran's biggest mistake in
(31:38) saying Jesus is the Messiah again I need you to educate me I always thought that the Quran presented Jesus as just another prophet and not the Messiah no that the Quran keeps referring to Jesus as the Messiah and that's exactly what you what you just said is is the problem in the Quran how how can the Quran refer to Jesus constantly as the Messiah son of Mary when it doesn't really understand or endorse um endorses the concept of what Christ really mean okay well let me make sure I'm understanding so the black and white
(32:19) verses of the Quran use Messiah but Islam is a culture doesn't treat Jesus as the Messiah so the concept of messiah in both Judaism and in Christianity is around salvation bringing salvation whether in the Jewish context that salvation is Earthly salvation or in the Christian theology where the Salvation became more of a spiritual salvation and restoring the relationship between man and God but Christ or the Christ was that anointed figure that is supposed to come and um and have salvation for Humanity ReStore world peace and all
(32:57) that jazz the funny thing is that the Quran then comes and endorses Jesus being the Messiah but at the same time denies his crucifixion uh there is no salvation that came with Christ and definitely no world peace that came with Christ so under what basis exactly you're trying to tell me I'm I'm asking the Quran here on what basis you're you're claiming that Jesus is the Messiah if you're refusing every context that he can be the Messiah the Savior am I then to understand that islamists rever Muhammad more than Jesus
(33:35) Ah that's a slippery slope I mean I know it's a subjective it's your perception and you don't have to answer Adam but I just I never hear Muslims talk about Jesus because it's always about Muhammad you know the the Quran speaks of Jesus very very highly and and as as a the most regarded figure however in in in the minds of everyday Muslim they think that Muhammad is the finest human being that came to Earth and and definitely they rever him way more than anyone or anything else um you will find
(34:10) a very famous chanting um in times of crisis in the Middle East you will find a lot of people chanting which means even my mom and dad I consider a sacrificial To You O Prophet this is how they consider the prophet Jesus that's sobering mom and dad are raising an eyebrow going uhoh you know sleep with one eye open because we might be sacrificed for the prophet let's pinball to your book how did Christianity begin really think about the book as a one of Bart er's books um it's it's all about
(34:53) how Christianity emerged from Judaism how they came to form their book how they came to form their Theology and the earliest um sects or different denominations that there was no denominations officially at the time but there were many many different groups that believed different things and they all called themselves Christians and it's in the western world it's very common knowledge but one of the reasons why I wanted to write that book is that one Bart's books are not available in the Middle East two there's hardly any of that
(35:28) material available in Arabic for the Christian communities uh in in the in the Middle East the I'm talking about the communities that they cannot read English and and their English illiteracy in the Arab world is very common so I wanted to produce something in Arabic on that topic um and it was in my own words and in my own knowledge as I uh learned things during my University years and I did as as I mentioned earlier my degree in biblical studies um I wanted to put that in an easy narrative to educate the average
(36:06) Arabic speaker is there an English version or just in Arabic right now from my book no I I haven't uh I haven't translated in in English and I I thought one one reason is that there are many many famous and big authors who wrote on the topics so I didn't feel the need for my book to be in English as well sure the need has already been meant here so now you're counseling you're working with people who are deconstructing what do they need what what are the trends you are hearing as people are doing what they do finally
(36:40) asking questions or asking for permission to ask questions what are you seeing out there brother all sorts of things not only as a therapist but since I joined rfr or recovering from religion and since also recovering from religion religion um has become an Australian organization as well so now we have recovered from religion Australia and um I started working with them a number of months ago plus being on the secular therapy project working with these two uh organizations I should say you find a lot of people with different needs and
(37:21) the needs vary all the way from someone struggling with the mental capacity or the mental burden I should say uh from questioning their faith and losing their faith and all that all the way to people who already made peace with the the the doubts and and they already abandoned the religion but they're struggling with the social aspect of it the family shunning the coming out so you have an entire spectrum of how different people experience trauma and um one of the wonderful things that rfr both globally and Australia provide is
(38:01) the support groups uh for these people wherever you're at whatever you're experiencing there are other people who experienced similar feelings and similar questioning and doubt and Trauma um you will find a lot of the lgbtq communities um who because of their faith they couldn't come out or when even when they come out they they struggle with their own sexual identity or sexual orientation it's it's it's a huge Spectrum Seth to to talk about in I know it's a broad question I mean you know
(38:39) you and I have both deconstructed in my own journey I was struck by how freeing it was that I I was no longer being told who to judge absolutely you're you're spot on and one yes I I I I felt liberated and now accepting of everyone and their own experience and um one funny thing I I say to my dad who is still a practicing Christian Church goer till today whenever he talks to me about my experience this is something I tell him all the time it's so funny not that what I tell him is it is so funny that that I
(39:19) actually feel that once I abandon Christianity once I denounced Christianity I became more Christian and he looks at me Pu like what do you mean you became more Christian after you left Christianity well excuse me I'm like yeah well if if you consider Christianity as live like Christ accept all love people wherever they are that's exactly how I'm living my life if that is your definition of Christian then I'm just living that I just don't believe in all the fluff around it and the things that require me
(39:53) to believe I just don't believe I just love the people no magic required you don't have all the guilt and shame and high control baggage and some people have said well wow didn't your apostasy turn your life upside down and I reply actually it kind of turned my life right side up which is I think a better way to say it Adam you have a very soothing way about you I can see if I was if I would look I may just call you anyway despite the 17-hour time difference maybe if I'm having a a challenge I'm just going to
(40:23) call you and let you soothingly walk me through whatever crisis I'm in because you have a very gentle calming demeanor about you and uh I mean I I you'd be the call I think I'd want if I was on that Journey if I ever get down there I'm going to shake your hand and also give a big hug to my dear friend who works with rfr Sher dusza she's just a precious precious person and um really fast uh give me your website tell people how to find you and your work if you would thank you uh yeah my website is as my
(40:56) name is spelled on the screen and ad mastery. online H and the way to find me online is basically if whether you go on on Google or YouTube and you just type Adam Master you will find both my Arabic and English speaking channels whichever language you uh you speak you'll find a lot of material on there I'm also on Instagram on Facebook so uh yeah just Google Adam and Mastery and you will find it all and I'll put the links in the description box now if you and I were still if we were in the Islamic
(41:26) faith how would we end our exchange would we say Asal or whatever it is what would I sayam U wellam Alum works both as a greeting to come in and to leave um so uh you just you don't say l anymore so you say Salam alaykum starting with the S Salam alikum it sounds much more Musical coming out of your mouth so I'm just going to leave it at that Adam El mrey uh it's an honor to be able to have this conversation we we've got our problems in the states obviously the front burner the Wildfire is the AL
(42:04) looming death of democracy and decency under the shadow of uh Christian nationalists Etc but Islam does remain a critical issue that we in the west need to be speaking about more and so I'm honored to be given the opportunity to be able to use this conversation to signal boost that I'm going to send everybody to your site and your channels and your work and let's talk again soon okay thank you so much thank you for having me and I am honored to be with you