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Title: "How to Avoid the AI Wrapper Trap"
Transcript: "(00:00) what makes you more than a AI rapper one criteria is you have some unique workflow or proven approach that incorporates the llm I think that's a critical piece that can be differentiating welcome to the talking AI podcast where we talk AI with both experts in the field and early adopters I'm your host Matt pagee and we're here to demystify AI for you so you can get some value from it let's talk some AI [Music] today we're joined by Tim Hansen co-founder of pinr in for context pinr is an AI native product that generates (00:40) high quality SEO articles without having to actually prompt plus Tim's an all-around awesome guy has a Great British accent so I know the audience is gonna enjoy this one welcome to the show Tim thank you for having me Matt it's the one thing I found about now living in Vancouver is that I'm 100% more Charming because I'm British oh yeah bet that's you gotta use that to your advantage definitely yeah yeah and recently you relocated over to Canada which is awesome I got to hear about some of that later but so I'm sure the (01:16) audience is thinking oh I can generate content with chat gbt or Claude or name your llm and that's exactly the topic I want to get into today and that is how do you actually create value with an AI native solution when you're competing in against this insane pace of change we're seeing with llms and avoid getting that like stamp of being an AI rapper and I don't mean the AI generated version of Snoop Dogg like basically having a thin layer of functionality on top of an llm so for listeners if you're not familiar (01:48) with that term we'll get into more of that later plus I just want to hear about some of your journey of building tin friend which for listeners it's an awesome solution I use it I can vouch for for it but I want to start like what was that moment that initial opportunity or Gap you saw in the market that pushed you to create pin Forin in the first place so it came from a combination of everybody getting told that you don't have a job because all of the AI is going to come and just take over marketing and (02:23) marketers don't have a job anymore and realizing for myself in the way that I've had to do many times before because I work in SEO is that my job gets effectively Rewritten every six months thanks Google good job really enjoy literally relearning my job every six months and essentially it's the same thing it's every time that's happened I get on to whatever educational sources I can learn as much as I can as quickly as possible start testing things and see what works what doesn't work with my own (02:59) my own sources my own clients projects those kind of things and honestly this was no different AI was coming learn as much as you can get things in place and thankfully from my agency days and running my own client work I had a lot of Sops in place of how I was doing things anyway so very standard this is how I get things done so it became very easy for me to use AI to replicate things that I was doing already purely because I had done those things and written those processes out I knew exactly what the steps were I knew (03:40) exactly what the output was supposed to look like it was there was very rarely ever a case with me where I would put a prompt in and get a bad answer and go oh the AI is the problem it was always like no my prompts just bad yeah like I'm not defining the job properly L and think that then very quickly turned into yes you can use llms to get content but you don't have a structure on how you want to get content out of those llms you don't know what you want you haven't made that content or that (04:17) outline hundreds of TH or thousands of times and when you put something in you it's very easy for people to do the same thing of oh it's really bad it can't write posts it can't do this it can't do that and you're entirely right it can't because you're asking it in most cases to do 20 30 40 or get into it but like potentially a hundred jobs in one prompt yeah and that's where it fails because you're asking it to do way way too much and you're expecting that from it you're (04:52) giving it nothing yeah it's the the quintessential it isn't you it's me but it is you it's the person prompted and I heard I was I forget who I was listening to but they were talking about this in context for coding like I could ask again name your llm doesn't really matter to write code for XYZ then I can write say another prompt and say write uh quality code that's secure in XYZ and it's going to write better code it's not just because it's lazy it's just you got to give it (05:29) that extra bit of context or you could say write it like some amazing developer and it's going to be even better and I think this whole concept of prompting as we know it today will evolve but it's a critical point there that you you hit on and there's another piece too you were hitting on it's this idea of effectively zero shot versus multi-shot is another kind of concept are you just asking it to do something with no examples one example two example for additional context and then how are you breaking it up am I (06:07) asking it to go do everything in one prompt or breaking it out and obviously best practice is to do kind of what you were hitting on break it up yeah for pen friend initially when like the first version that we released back in November last year my co-founder and I we sat down and we broke down like how many decisions do you as a human need to make to go from I want to write a blog to I have a published blog yeah like how many decisions as a human do I have to make for me to do that process properly and we worked out that it was a minimum (06:48) of 28 decisions wow to do the whole thing and for each one of those decisions you're wearing a different hat you're taking different variables into consider ation you have a slightly different goal for you to pass on to the next like the next version of you that makes another decision some of those decisions you might go and make five in one direction for one of these decisions in another direction to be made because you need that information you need research you need to go and read a load of other blogs or have a look at titles and see (07:23) patterns before you can make this decision over here and yet you have people out there that are trying to write an entire blog in one PR we reckon you need at least 28 so the first version of pen Tren that came out was about 25 to 30 different prompts for it to write it now the version of penen that we have at the minute whenever it writes any blog it's about 80 it's almost four times as many prompts in in some some of the different ways that we do it and it's purely because we realize that there's even more Nuance to a lot (07:59) of those decisions it's a lot more new on and we weren't placing anywhere near enough importance on some of the tiny little decisions that actually turn out to be really big things that we need to know but also we've got five different more sources of information that we use now to write blogs versus the way that we were doing it previously like now we're pulling information from like people also asked and doing fact checking through perplexity and like doing a lot of the analytic side of things are all (08:33) being done through Tre GPT open Ai and then the writing side is through anthropic so and it's not really to your point of is it just a rapper no we're effectively using each of the individual llms for their strengths but the way that we have it as well as we have an agent that chooses what is the right llm for the specific job for the specific blogs that it's writing and all of those are built off of templates and those templates are built off of like we build prompts as it needs them and then asks (09:09) the write llm that prompt based on what is the blog that you're currently write there there's so many angles I want to go down and you're starting to get into that point of what makes you more than an AI rapper I gotta go back there real quick was there actually a moment in time that you remember that kind of triggered this whole idea of was it using chat gbt for the first time and you were just like oh  and was it an oh moment or was it like oh this is really cool I could use this in some unique way was it the (09:42) negative scary or was it the opportunistic was honestly it was a little bit of probably unfounded bravado yeah in that I had a client and they were paying a lot of money for a lot of content to be written and I genuinely was like I reckon I can write qus that make you better content I have to prove that I'm better than this I I can do this and this is the direction that things are going and maybe at the time it was entirely unfounded I I don't know but it was like I don't see I don't see anybody doing this (10:24) properly and I think I can I'm pretty sure I can do this yeah and then realizing like just how hard of a process that was but really enjoying the process and it was very evident of this is the way that things are going to go and have to learn how to do this just to keep my job for me to still be useful to clients for me to still be able to provide the the service and the advising and the Consulting that I love doing I have to learn this yeah I have to know the this is the way to because I'm going to get questions about (11:02) it of course I'm going to get questions about it I have to know yeah yeah yeah no that's interesting so AI rapper let's get into this there a lot of people out there saying if you're an AI rapper good luck you're dead the next version of chat gbt or whatever is gonna kill your product Sam Alman was saying if the future stuff we have coming ites you you're good to go if it scares the out of you you're in trouble so I'd be curious to get your take there but there's one piece you got in in the pinr (11:39) website and I think it gets back to what you've been hitting on you have a proven content strategy it's delivered millions in Revenue to your clients you spent 1,800 Plus hours refining prompts and guiding you through the article creation step by step and I was thinking about this before the call i' be be curious your take if we can break this down for the AUD audience of how they should start to think about this at the atomic level what makes you more than a AI rapper I think one criteria is you have (12:12) some unique workflow or proven approach that incorporates the llm I think that's a critical piece that can be differentiating are you leveraging proprietary data in a unique way I think that can be differentiating and then are you serving a very specific Niche creating this like super tailored experience for their job to be done how they operate like those are the three I was thinking of and I think the thing the biggest Point against the whole AI rapper you're screwed is humans are very lazy yes I can go to chat gbt and do all (12:49) kinds but guess what I can go to Excel and do all kinds of things too but I don't use Excel to run my CRM I use HubSpot or Salesforce or whatever but I had those three that came to mind thoughts on those are there others that you think differentiate you build a mode make you more than just a rapper the process of how we build the blogs is very much it's not a linear process so if you would put a keyword into pen friend the first thing that we do with that keyword is we take it to Google and we see who is ranking for that search term (13:27) so immediately that's not not something any of the llms currently do yeah you can't currently see so that's we go and have a look see what ranks read all of those articles and try and work out what are the patterns what are the things that Google are rewarding for why those things rank then the other thing that we do with that keyword is we take it through an entire flow of who is the person behind this what are they looking for what are they expecting to find what actually answers the reason why they searched in the (14:02) first place because I think the best way this was ever explained to me was somebody searching for an ergonomic chair isn't looking for an ergonomic chair they're looking for a solution to back pain or potential back pain or because they're building a new desk Setter and they just have those things in mind so you can potentially put all of the chairs you want in front of them but if you don't address the core reason why they're searching for in the first place they'll never continue on it's just a (14:31) really difficult thing for them to do so we try and work out as much of that as we possibly can so that before we even put a title in front of you we've tried to work out what is the title that makes the most sense to the reason that the this person is doing this search to the human side of things then also what are the patterns that Google is rewarding and what is the gap that nobody else seems to be talking about and then we craft titles from there so you put your keyword in we've done so much work (15:05) before you ever get titles and all of that comes from we've got our own proprietary system and how we like figure those things out but also it's just a lot of human understanding there's a lot of prompts in the back end of just okay is this what are the reasons they do they want a product do they want information do they want guides are they looking for comparison like all of these different types of things you get the title that's one click you like the title cool now we'll show you what the outline is so that (15:39) outline the way that we write that outline as well is whenever we create the title we also try and work out so if this person is looking for a guide I don't want to accidentally start trying to write a blog for you that is um a product versus B product I want to make sure that the titles that I put in front of you actually create content that that person who's searching is looking for so if they're looking for a guide I want to make sure that the titles are conducive to how-tos or step by steps or things (16:13) like that so you get to see the entire outline you can edit the outline if you want I would prefer people edit the outline so they can make it more their own article at this point we found that like 10 15 minutes of editing at this point can equate to up to two to three hours of editing on the other side if you push it in the direction that you actually want to push it into in the outline stage right yeah if you just go and add just the bits that you want to it it it helps a ton and then during the writing stage what we then go and do is (16:50) for each section we'll then go and pull facts and quotes and statistics from different libraries that exist they're all they're live libraries as well they're like proven places that that exist they're archival places on the internet that we have API access to that we pull everything into and then for that individual section this is the bit that I really like actually that we put a lot of work into this earlier this year so the entire blog is made up of different blocks and each of those (17:24) blocks have got different prompts that write those blocks but those blocks those prompts change depending on where the block is in in the blog so if you have like the topic overview that could depending on the right blog be at the beginning of a blog or be at the end of a Blog now I don't potentially want to write the same thing if it's at the beginning versus if it's at the end so we have a thing that knows where the block is in the entire blog and knows what came before it and after it and will write the section that fits (18:01) depending on where it fits me entire blog so it's dynamic in nature there it's almost it's this crazy comparison of like human old way of doing it chat GPT or llm way of doing it and then pinr and everything youve built into it way of doing it but I think I heard you mention this earlier a big thing we're leaning into Atrix AI is around the agentic approach to things and you're leveraging these effective agents for different tasks within a workflow like they're very specific and tailored to X (18:36) thing and they're working with other agents to execute on this thing are you actually taking that approach from an architecture standpoint to your point is there an agent specifically tasked with going and checking the competitive side on Google and whatnot and gaps and then one for the titles and then outlines or there different you know agents that have their specific role and prompts tied to them that you've architected in a way yeah so we've got like many versions of those at the moment the main (19:10) one that we're working on like right now is fact checking in development at one point we were like oh we go and write all of these different things and then we put it through a factchecking agent and it would do this really interesting thing where it would if it did didn't know if a fact was true or not it would just leave it and sometimes it would just be completely false yeah and then there would be times when it would go and grab like new fact like good real facts facts not fake facts fact facts and put them in and (19:46) still leave the other ones and what we realized was the better way to do it is the other way around is this is what we're going to write about before we write that section we then give that to like the fact agent the fact agent goes and finds facts and stats and quotes and things like that that fulfill like that blur and then we give the blur and the facts to the the bit that then writes and that gave us a much much better output because we're now telling the bit the right don't make up yeah oh that's figure out the story of (20:26) this blur fit these jigs or pie in where it makes sense and then it's good and then we've got another one that then goes and checks that section make sure it didn't add anything in that it doesn't make sense to it's crazy when you change the order of things because it became I think it almost doubled the amount of prompts per section so it then doubles like the cost of the section and all this kind of stuff that comes with it but it makes something that is ultimately considerably better yeah that (21:04) quality versus cost kind of tradeoff yeah yeah but and but then the problem also with that is it's slower yeah now I need to go and run all of this different information and or from this and this I think fact checking of anything of these kind of things is ultimately going to be such a differentiator I think some many people at the minute don't trust like AI content because it's very easy to say something that is ultimately not true but sounds very true very believable right it's like you almost want in that (21:42) like user experience standpoint if I'm sitting there going through the factchecking stage I almost wanted to take it a second just for my own peace of mind okay it's working really hard on this but the interesting thing with this agentic approach is these agents can be working together in what feels near real time to US versus like our human mind thinks okay I gotta go talk to Tim about this I got to work with Judy on that and it's just a a very interesting way of architecting a solution so for any like (22:13) listeners curious about that uh Ruben Cohen is a great resource you can find him on LinkedIn talks a lot about agent agentic stuff we do a lot of talking about it with hatchworks AI as well I think that's a a big area you need understand as you're thinking about AI native Solutions in the future have you played around much where one of the the next big stuff for us is all of the like vector storage and any rag things that come next is oh yeah main thing I want to do is get it so people can give us their content and we can understand it (22:50) better and write a new article that can link to those but also just understands it and we can write in that tone it's it's very much the thing that makes the most sense for us going forward yeah so we could nerd out on this a minute I need to connect you with our new CTO Omar on this but so we're actually working on a rag as a service solution that just makes it super easy to do exactly what you're talking about but that's actually a really cool idea just thinking in context of your product (23:20) because you could connect that to to your point all of your past content anything brand related tone of voice like all of these different components that make it uniquely you and that's the beauty of it is you can connect to those data sources and you don't necessarily need to go like train some new model on it it's just an llm is using that as a resource and toer point using kind of vector databases and whatnot making it easy to go through and search that stuff yeah I think that's a really cool kind of product Evolution (23:59) right there it's it's where my head was at that point like this time last year was I was like this is the way I want this to go because it makes so much sense but it we're a very small team like I think what we've done so far has been incredibly impressive with how little there are of us it's I think the main thing that I've leared with working with uh our Dev team and like what we've done so far is Tak so much longer than I think it's going to yeah that's how it goes when you're (24:36) building a product I'm all too familiar with that and it's funny I was just chatting with Matt Lewis doing another talking AI episode and he's the chief AI officer at niio Medical so they're huge in the Life Sciences space but they're looking at rag as a solution as well for that reason because obviously in content you want that to be wrong when it comes to like medical you really don't want it to be wrong there and you mentioned human in the loop earlier they're thinking very intentionally because you do want a (25:09) human in the loot for some of those like medical related or life science use cases there as well but I'm curious to like the SEO front in general like there's also the angle that SEO could be completely disrupted and creating content in general just gets completely flipped on its head any perspectives there I know we've started seeing like people finding us via perplexity and things like that which is interesting is there an evolution you think's gonna happen just on the base principles of SEO past like generating (25:47) the content but of people finding what they're looking for and maybe you don't need a blog like and what's the then you're like SEO optimizing for tools like perplexity and things like that just getting directly to the answer and being a source it's interesting that you say things like that because I we've seen other clients as well come up with oh my God I appeared in like Microsoft copilot and and think like this it is interesting to see it's really cool to see things like that just starting to (26:19) appear I think people should always own their own content and and media in one way or another and I think yeah the way that people find those things will probably change it probably will go from being like specifically in Google to whatever the Whoever thought that in like our lifetime we would see Google actually have a mass like massive competitor and not just one like four or five like all at the same time it's nuts but yeah yeah for I think the medium of which people get found will change but the medium of (27:04) which people buy I don't think will change much and there's always going to be a point of inventing the trust really showing that you know how to solve people's problems and just getting people from wherever it is that they're searching for something to actually needing a or a service or a product to to help them and then paying for that I don't know how much of the bottom part of that funnel is going to change I think there will always need to be some level of content it just makes sense for you to own in in (27:47) that funnel in one way or another I think the thing that made the the biggest impact to me on just how important content is was it was was a workshop that I was on like years ago and if you it was a study done by deloy PWC and Google and if you were to take between zero and 10 zero is never heard of you ever before 10 is like the second before I give you any money whatever your service is but what number do you think is the average point where a person gets in touch with another person on that like purchase Journey (28:33) yeah it's 8.6 it's really far down that entire funnel which means you have so much space at the beginning of that that theyve done a lot of work selling yeah you are still selling to someone without you ever knowing that you're selling to them so you need something in front of those people you need something that makes sense those people people to make their own way down that funnel yeah and if it's not on a Blog if it's not maybe it's on YouTube maybe it's on social like these kind of places but if it (29:09) doesn't exist then you're just not going to help those people at all yeah here's one take I'm just like riffing off the top of my head like alternate reality so we talked about atic and agents and things like that say I have an agent in the future and I'm saying hey go find me the best product for x or have this problem do that the agents still got to go and do some amount of research and figure out the problem space I wonder if in the future like we're like SEO optimizing for agents and not humans (29:42) which could be and then are we just writing blogs that are actually agents that can just speak better to other agents yeah and don't we just connect them and just let them yeah do their thing Lin just becomes like an agent Marketplace yeah oh God that's when agents start having AI agents start having their own LinkedIn profiles where it's all going downhill I'm moving to the mountains at that point I'm done a couple of just questions to wrap it up I'm curious on the pinr journey what like because a lot (30:17) of our listeners are probably interested in thinking about how do I start adopting AI build it into my products build completely new and novel products what was like the biggest challenge you or your team faced in this journey of creating infrint so the three of us are not technical I am the most technical and that is like really good at writing prompts yeah like actually putting that into software code like these kind of things like really wouldn't know where to start let alone build a product the thing that I would recommend if you're (30:59) in the same boat that we are is get like our developer Matthew is incredible genuinely he's always asking questions about content about SEO about the bits that we know and the problems that we have and how he can make the product better and I think the main bit of advice that I would have is just find a developer that obsesses about the product because I've worked with many developers before that kind of just the code look is really nice and like they're obsessed about that side of things but then just don't give a (31:48) about what the product is and what what it does and what it solves and why we're trying to make it and those kind of things um I think we got Lucky in that we found that person very quick quickly it's interesting you're almost defining I think what will be the future prototype prototypical engineer that's successful in the future because a lot of the the tasks they do today will be made easier with AI but if you get one that's truly product oriented product minded and curious that's what's going to make you (32:23) stand out as an Engineers I think that's really interesting what about what's surprised you the most in the journey any just like big surprises good or bad it's hard work I've gone from being head of SEO in an agency to being a consultant and an advisor with startups and then deciding okay cool get a run on my own like it seems like quite a typical oh those things make sense and it's it is just so much more work like hard work of just no one else is going to do those things for you you you really need to just yeah (33:09) it's late nights it's working on things constantly it's no breaks I think the not necessarily like the biggest surprise but the biggest lesson I've had is 100% from my co-founder Iger just trust your gut and take risk yeah it's very easy with me in like the SEO space is oh I have a process I know it works I know what it does this yeah those work for the companies that I work with because they're already moving and they have traction whereas we're like right at the beginning and it's you have to take risks trust your (33:50) gut try this if it doesn't work cool you learn something if it does can you scale it that's a big part of what we're building is just take that risk trust in the people that you have around you and if you fail just get get back up try something else it's it's okay yeah but at least you tried and I guess when you're early on too you have the ability to take more risks with less potential consequences and whatnot I think the last to answer to yeah thing too you're the boss just get mad at yourself and (34:32) yeah go have a drink and everything's better but what last question just curious what gets you most excited about where AI is going like we hear about it's like every day something news coming out what gets you most excited about the future this could be related to penri and SEO or just in general I'm a stickler for automating all kinds of tasks so yeah anything that is any kind of automation smart automation of things is I think is just really cool I like the way that AI is helping things in the creative industry (35:11) like it things do seem to be moving a little bit more towards the creative industry film industry Arts illustrations yeah there's a little bit more adoption there than there wasn't at the beginning and for good reason there was a lot of content being stolen for no good reason to to train those models but like my background very early on was in animation so it's cool to see I think AI in games as well is g to be really interesting it's G to be a hell of a lot more immersive both in online games digital games but I'd be (35:50) really interested to see how it comes into role playing games and things like that I think could be very interesting yeah yeah cuz then it's it doesn't have to necessarily be fully defined where if x happens y happens it can be truly unique a unique experience I think that's a really interesting point to see how that and that could be games that could be other media types like movies and things like that it's definitely gonna be fun I think there'll be a lot more like immersive experiences with AI characters (36:27) that are like kind of IRL chat boot but then you can imagine the same thing within games where characters are written entirely through like different chat Bots and prompting and and that side of things and it'll be interesting to see what the first games are that come out with a fully AI character instead of them just being scripted yeah that's going to be interesting all right Tim I think that's a good stopping point there where can folks find you find pin frints what's the best way to get out there (37:00) and any typ of offers and trying it out yeah pen friend is on pen friend. you get your first three articles for free and anybody who signs up for an annual subscription gets quarterly calls from myself to go over your content strategy because if you want to make that amount of content you're certainly my kind of people and then I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON> on LinkedIn where after all of the development that we've been doing over the last couple of months we're getting back on LinkedIn very soon so I'll be (37:33) there a lot more often I was there a lot at one point I take a took a break to build a product yeah nice yeah just that that little thing of building a product thanks Tim for yeah exactly awesome man thanks for talking some AI an absolute pleasure thank you for having me on thanks for listening to the talking AI podcast if you enjoyed the show give us a follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and don't forget to leave us a review We love those for more info on talking AI visit talking AI podcast.com (38:09) [Music] [Applause]