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this is the Nielsen Norman group ux podcast [Music] I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON> and today I'm not the host that's right I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON> and I am going to be guest hosting today's episode yes I'm super excited this is episode 10 of our humble podcast which means we've basically hit our very first Milestone which is double digits we're really glad to have made it this far with our listener support your support So to celebrate this uh we're shaking things up yeah and it's exciting because Therese you have gotten the opportunity to interview so many ux specialists on a good amount of pressing ux topics but I thought it would be really fun to give you a chance to talk about a topic near and dear to you yeah that this is exciting I'm also really nervous now that I'm in the hot seat uh but yes today Rachel will be asking me all the questions how did you get to this prestigious position of being the podcast host tell me more so it was an idea I had about a year ago I'd been part of nng for about four years at that point last year it was something I just felt like we really needed to do we had such great instructors not that I'm biased or anything but we had such great instructors that had so much knowledge um and were just such great fun people to talk to I felt like it was a great opportunity to share our knowledge in a different way you teach a class on emerging patterns and you know you're always looking for emerging Trends in the ux world so what are some of the most interesting things that you've come across in terms of emerging cool things that are happening in the ux world lately oh yeah this is a class I love and of course I love all my classes it's like picking your favorite child like picking your favorite class um but this is is a class that I do work on quite a bit because like the titles emerging patterns like we're constantly on the hunt for what is not just new because new technology is everywhere all the time like every second there's some new development and as much as it can be fun to find the newest and latest trends what's often a lot harder is figuring out what's going to last like what is actually going to impact people's work what's worth the time and energy and that's that's a harder question to answer and I know a lot of people come to the class like wanting to predict the future and I certainly want to predict the future too and there are some Frameworks we can use to sort of evaluate whether a trend is going to stick around but one that is particularly top of mind to me at least one I'm excited about is blockchain and nfts which is kind of nerdy of me but also is something that I do think is going to change the way we do our work but what I don't think will change will be how people react to designs and like what people are looking for and people's expectations like I think blockchain has a ton of potential to like democratize technology as a whole redistribute wealth make data more encrypted more protected and enable people to do lots of things so a lot of that stuff excites me because I'm like this is this is really a new technology that's going to change things at the same time though I know that there are going to be folks like a lot of my family members who are going to see the stuff and be like block what what's an nft a Nifty um that is going to be part of this longer more challenging task which is not just can we educate people on what blockchain is but why do people even need to be educated on what blockchain is is there any other way that maybe we can translate what we're creating into more user-centric terms and so in a lot of ways I think this space is very developer-centric kind of by necessity because this technology is still emerging it's still being built and we're still exploring its capabilities but also it's it's not something that is necessarily going to be super mainstream until we have a lot more ux effort so that's why I'm excited about it because I think there's a ton of potential for like ux professionals to like get involved and really make this become a more mainstream technology but yeah that's where my brain's at is nfts and blockchain but yeah it's it's something that it's one of many uh different little emerging trends that is currently on my mind definitely I think it's interesting to think about you know blockchain and nfts and kind of the I kind of Envision a mini Journey map in my head about someone going through that process for the first time and I feel like the scale of user satisfaction in the beginning is probably very low in terms of new users just from the confusion that might come across it especially something that doesn't feel very tangible like a website or an application so I think going kind of along those lines of talking about user satisfaction we talk about the word delight a lot in ux you know oh we have to Delight our users how delightful is that experience and I think it's a term that's thrown around a lot in the ux world oh yeah how would you define Delight in ux I love these questions these like deep questions about defining things because it's they're difficult questions but I think it's important to really think about this definition of what Delight really is I think a lot of people think of the word delight and they think of someone like dancing in their seat or like laughing smiling you know just genuinely exhilarating positive feeling and that's not wrong I would say that's a form of delight for sure and it's great if we have people feeling that way about the things we design the things we create I also think Delight can take a different form so when I really think about the definition of delight I think of it as a positive feeling and that sounds so vague but I think it's important to Define it that way because you can have something like surface Delight versus deep Delight so we have an article that I'll link in the show notes about this theory of positive uh emotion and how surface delight and deep Delight both have a role to play and so usually when people use the term Delight they're thinking of things like surface Delight so surface Delight would be like some type of interface element that's you know makes people happy or has like a positive feeling but it's usually really contextual and like local to a particular area of the interface it's not necessarily A positive feeling that extends for the entire user's Journey or experience with a product so an example I like to think about is like an animated gif right so you see an animated gif side note I will always always call it gif it will never be a gif I will I will die on this hill that's peanut butter that is peanut butter um nonetheless uh animated gif right that would be an example of this kind of local contextual thing that can bring us joy it's not gonna change our world it's not going to necessarily you know move us to some deep feeling of Joy but it's it's something that makes us happy potentially in that moment other examples could be like a joke right a joke that's told in an error message um so those would be examples of like surface to light but deep Delight is so much harder to achieve and I like the term deep because it often goes beyond individual interface elements it goes into you know how well we are meeting someone's needs as a human being but also as a user as a customer we can also go deeper into thinking about how streamlined is our workflow and you know I often joke around that when you think about deep Delight the last thing you want to hear is streamlined workflows like that sounds like the most boring way to approach making a really enjoyable interface but the fact is when something is streamlined and actually meets people's needs and and not just meets their needs or expectations but exceeds those expectations and delivers even more than was expected and adds value that's where we really get these more holistic delightful experiences so one example actually this is an example I give in my class persuasive and emotional design it's actually a Turbo Tax example and it was a case study about this particular interface element and I'll put that in the show notes as well but it's this you know person who is doing their tax filing which is very timely as we release this episode but this person was doing their tax filing and their spouse had just passed away that year so this this person was doing their normal filing and it got to the section about the spouse and you know doing their income information and then the workflow asks you know do any of these apply to Pat the spouse and then there are two check boxes one of them is Pat you know was legally blind and the other one is Pat passed away this year so this person checked the box which is Pat passed away this year and this this little message popped up that said we're sorry for your loss you know uh we'll make sure that everything gets filed correctly and the person who had seen this had written a note to the Turbo Tax team like please pass on you know how meaningful this was to me now when you think of delight that's not something people necessarily think of right someone who's mourning a loved one but that was a great example of how Delight can often go well beyond just like this one-dimensional happy emotion um and so you know emotion is really this you know that's another deep question what is emotion uh it's it's often this you know this more complex realm where you have things like positive and negative affect and then you also have you know high energy versus low energy and so you can have something as nuanced as like cathartic feelings even though it's not Delight in the more conventional sense it really is you know a meaningful experience so that's what I think of when I think of delight I think of an experience that really goes beyond any single interaction and delivers value you know in someone's life so yeah so that's what I think of it it's a big question but it's a lofty goal for sure I think that's really interesting I haven't heard that TurboTax example but I think that's so powerful and it really shows that Delight like you said isn't just doesn't just have to be this positive thing but it's something that leaves a lasting impression or something that I would probably recommend because they had put that extra thought into it and it is you know taking into consideration what I'm going through as a user not just trying to throw a bunch of legalese at me so I think that's really cool yeah we we talk about designing for delight and now that we kind of know all the facets of delight that it's more than just happiness that comes with a product but I have this question about it should Delight always be something that we strive for you know should we always be trying to Delight the user like if I am trying to schedule a doctor's appointment is that something that should be delightful is that something that we need to make all these extra efforts for or should it just be really straightforward and simple I think there's an opportunity to build a relationship and so when I think of delight in these contexts I don't necessarily think of it as how fun can we make it although that can certainly be something we strive for I don't think that should be the main goal maybe what we can focus on is what our users expectations are and whether or not we can exceed them so if I were to take that doctor's appointment example actually a good one I can give it's somewhat related it's a Veterinary a Veterinary Clinic example so fun fact I have a dog and a cat I've somehow miraculously managed to keep them silent during these podcast episodes we got an email from a vet clinic that was like oh Finley's vaccine is coming up due something along those lines that's not something I would necessarily say is like super joyful but that's helpful because I had no idea when Finley's Veterinary uh you know appointment was going to be due so stuff like that might not be seen as conventionally delightful but it can be something that exceeds someone's expectations and over time that type of anticipating someone's needs is what builds that relationship and what ultimately builds that more holistic sense of delight so another example I can give once again in the vet clinic vein um we went to a clinic where they had a little Blackboard and before each patient went into each room they would write the patient that was coming into the room on their name on the on the board when I say patient I'm talking about a pet right an animal they're writing the animal's name on this little Blackboard but then when the owner and that patient would walk into the room the first thing the owner would see would be their pet's name written lovingly in a Blackboard chalk with a little heart on it so small detail ultimately does it really make a huge difference in that particular Pet's treatment not really right it doesn't necessarily impact that particular interaction but it adds value so I think there are opportunities to have Delight should it be our primary goal I think that ultimately meeting you like if I didn't get treatment at that vet clinic and I just saw these little you know heart-shaped Scrolls on a Blackboard probably wouldn't be a great experience but if that need is being met and then there is additional value being met I think that's where the opportunity really lies yeah I think that's interesting you know you talk about Delight doesn't have to be the main goal and you know should it even be the main goal we we get a lot of Direction I think from stakeholders from clients that are saying we want to Delight our users we want to you know give them the best best experience possible in everything how do we manage those kinds of expectations with our stakeholders and clients when that's kind of their mentality that's a really good question because I do think to some extent we should try to improve every facet of an experience but we also don't have like endless money or time or people and if only right oh it would be amazing and even if we are one of these massive multinational corporations with you know a ton of money and a ton of human resources and a ton of opportunities to improve we're still going to see the issues that you could see in any organization silos and difficulty coordinating so yeah I would say it's good to strive for constant Improvement but I think it's easy to get lost in the Embellishments and I think it's really important to dig down into why we're even making those embellishments in the first place there was this organization that I was on hold with for a while got transferred about seven times no less than seven times to different people and at the end of the seventh I had saxophone blasting saxophone weight music blasting in my ear and I was Furious that's when I think about embellishments being prioritized over the actual Journey over the actual user needs and actually to use Kara pronice's slogan that she coined a while back you cannot impose Joy like it Delight is a noble cause but we can't impose this exuberant Delight on somebody if they are not happy if if they're not having their needs met if we're trying to help resolve those needs it does us no good to focus on happiness it does us a lot more good to focus on where our users are feeling pain and I know for you Rachel as instructor of design thinking I'm sure this is a common theme that comes up but I know we both have that same philosophy which is that if we focus on why people are doing something in the first place as opposed to how can we make this fun that's where we're really going to have a much greater impact perhaps even more turn on our you know efforts on our investments I think that's great because you know I think it's easy to focus on the happy path the path that is the most straightforward that is if everything works perfectly this is our happy path but I think you're right when we actually focus in on the problems the pain points the places where users are frustrated we actually come up with even better ideas and it's a chance to really focus on those real problems rather than just picking that low-hanging fruit so I think that that is a a really good point and actually opens us up to create even better things when we do focus on the areas where people are frustrated and you know not try to make them superficially happy but actually solve their problems right yeah and and in a similar vein yes we should definitely try to solve users problems I think we should also not just try to like barely check the box right if there is some way we can really add more value that's going to be much better and I'm actually going to quote you but in is in one of your courses they use design Ops where you discuss the concept of minimum viable product right which is this idea that there's this minimum product that we have to deliver in order for it to actually be viable in the market and I think that's a good good starting point if we want to like build something out in a very small or short timeline right if we're really lean but you bring up this concept of a minimum lovable product so yeah if you want to share more about that I remember when you when you brought that up in your class I remember my ears lit up and I'm like that's what we need like that's what we really need to focus on is not just building something that's viable like it checks the box but but something that actually you know is is Meaningful and adds value yeah so the the case study in question here that we talk about minimum lovable product in design Ops it comes from Autodesk I believe and they you know kind of had this frustration with minimum viable product where they were really only checking the boxes for engineering and QA and business requirements but they really weren't thinking about usability and usability was kind of like an afterthought and that's I think a common concern with MVP is we forget about making things actually good and easy to use we just want them to basically work so Autodesk came up with a just kind of a new lens to think about that same concept and looked at it as minimum lovable product so when we deliver a product it should also be something that users want enjoy using and actually love it and I think it's such a one of those things that's probably a little corny but I think just that mindset shift makes a lot of difference in what we build yeah for sure because now you're thinking less about how fast can I make something and is it good enough now we're thinking not only is it just good enough to ship but you know is this something that is worth shipping in the first place is it something that's worth the time and effort for yeah definitely now going back to how to use persuasion and emotion in your interface design what advice would you give to uxers out there who are looking to better engage with their users and create some of these delightful experiences just based on what you've encountered over the years and the different trends that you're seeing yeah the word engagement always makes my like hairs on the back of my neck stand up um because engagement can be good it can also be really destructive in terms of you know being a metric that we evaluate so as for engaging with users I think it's important to really identify what is it mean to engage with users what does it mean for us as a business what does it mean for our users what do they get out of this and I think ultimately that delightful experience that we're pursuing is going to come from whether or not we're engaging in a way that actually brings value to our users lives like does something that impacts them positively and so one of the things I bring up in the persuasive and emotional design class is this hierarchy of user needs and this is sort of like attributed to two people I know Aaron Walter in his book designing for emotion he identifies some of these user needs kind of starts at the bottom with like is it functional like is is it functional as a product or a service right and then from there you build up you get reliable does it work consistently does it bug out sometimes then goes into usable is it actually something people can intuitively understand and then you get to pleasurable or enjoyable and at the very top you get meaningful so actually that very top was not an Aaron Walter's book but Daniel Rustin had this great article on the Google design blog about that particular top of the pyramid because that was a gap that he noticed as well it's like we can have a delightful interface but if it ultimately isn't meaningful if it's not addressing pain if it's not adding value then are we really you know at the Pinnacle of our designs and the answer is not really right we can always do better so in terms of engaging with users creating delightful experiences I think the best way to really build that relationship out is is one identify what those deep user needs are and two make sure that we're respecting that relationship that we have with our users I think in many ways there's there can be a disregard of the trust that our users have our customers have or disregard that it even is a relationship right we kind of fixate on the numbers we fixate on increasing metrics like maybe it's time on task or time on the page and that's a number we just we want to boost because frankly those numbers you know increasing give us bonuses right sometimes incentives are tied to these uh performance changes or maybe it's you know the bounce rate decreases or the exit rate decreases so you know a large variety of different metrics which may be on the surface seem like good or bad metrics but when you dig deeper and kind of learn like okay for example when someone's at the end of a checkout flow it makes sense that they would exit the page they're done purchasing like they're finished so you know simply looking at exit rate bounce rate or time on task isn't always going to give a full picture of what someone's really experiencing and when we overly fixate we can disregard the real context that matters which is maybe someone is spending a lot of time on a page not because they're engaged but because they literally can't find what they're looking for in which case we're not doing a great job at building that relationship and if our other evaluation is how many pages they click on again maybe that's not actually engagement overall so don't get too drawn in by the metrics and see if you can learn more about how your customers feel at each step of the process that sounds very fluffy but there is a level of objectivity you can give to that type of research you can do observational research and see you can actually analyze facial expressions you can look for micro Expressions now there are some tools out there that do this but I would say there's no tool that really substitutes understanding context and why someone feels a certain way so I feel like that's where you can have the most impact in terms of actually meeting needs and and building a relationship that lasts longer than just one interaction right a relationship that lasts maybe across many interactions because we actually get a chance to build that trust and build that Customer Loyalty so that would be my recommendation is you know use metrics but make sure you're looking at the the big picture yeah really having that balance of quantitative metrics and then qualitative insights is really going to give you kind of a well grounded picture of how people use your applications I think that's really good and I think we're seeing that more and more like stakeholders in business love quantitative metrics and they love to advocate for them and us as uxers are kind of like hey cool those are great but like Also let's talk to people and see how they feel yeah there was this actually a great article too um I read it in Harvard Business review it was about uh improving empathy skills and the number one recommendation was not perspective taking so there was this difference between perspective taking and another strategy we often think of perspective taking as oh put yourself in someone's shoes but actually perspective taking limits empathy because then we start to broadcast our assumptions about how we would behave in that particular situation as opposed to what that person would actually do or how they actually would behave and what motivates them and what's important to them and so it actually is not a great strategy for building empathy and instead perspective getting which is like actually talking to human beings talking to as many human beings as you can um that's going to be a much better strategy at helping you be better at reading other people so it's not just talking to your co-workers more often or people you already know but talking to a variety of people as well and that sort of comes with the territory of doing user research but you know especially as you find maybe you're interviewing the same types of people over and over again you know maybe it's time to stretch out a little see if you can interview a slightly different type of customer and you might be surprised what you learn I know I'm constantly surprised by what I learned users are an endless well of of interesting surprises uh certainly makes my job fun and and unexpected and surprising absolutely I know you and Alita talked about that in an episode on The False Consensus Effect as well which is a great one to listen to Shameless plug um I know I'm taking this guest hosting thing very seriously you're a natural it's great so Therese I think it's about getting to that time here tell us where people can follow you and your work so on the NN Group website I'm always writing publishing videos I'm also on this podcast but other than that on social media channels you can find me on Twitter at tbfest that's t-b-f-e-s-s I'm also on LinkedIn as well so um oh and I just joined Clubhouse uh it is there's another place you can find me as well it's also at tbfest but yeah uh thank you Rachel for being a host yeah no and you know Therese I I will gladly step in and interview you anytime you want to talk about something exciting I love to hear it any of the topics that Cherise talked about where she referenced any articles or courses we'll put those in the show notes for you all so you can feel free to check those out after the show and then lastly if you like the show you want to support us please hit subscribe on whatever platform you're listening from and if you're on Apple podcast we would love to have you leave us a rating really helps us just get the word out not just about our show but the research that we do which allows us to inform you of all new exciting ux topics and it would really just mean a lot to us so Therese I have loved sitting in for you this is harder than it looks so thank you for putting me up to the challenge and it was really cool to hear your perspectives on delight and just how we make things better for users yes it's a lot of fun so yeah on that note thanks everyone for listening and I guess that's our cue to say remember keep it simple thank you