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D Dubbs
D Dubbs
Wish Upon A Star
Aug 25, 2008
#31
Jeff Harris said:
Yeah. Remember the company that brought you those shows initially as well. Now, instead of two hours, there's at least double that amount. And at least one hour of that is Chaotic reruns.

Okay, now you lost me. You're saying that CW4Kids has at least four hours of "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment?" They only have one hour of anime on the block, for crying out loud. Everything else on the block is either produced by 4Kids or was originally in English to begin with.

Jeff Harris said:
You want to know why Tom and Jerry Tales ISN'T coming back on? It's not because the crew behind the series didn't want to make another season, because they did. 4Kids chose not to renew the series because it doesn't fit their public persona.

So, instead of Tom and Jerry Tales, stay tuned to Viva Pinata!

Since when is it wrong to not order more episodes of a show? The ratings for the show have been gradually dwindling since the beginning of the year, so why should 4Kids order more episodes of a show that's on its way out? It's a logical decision, and if Kids' WB was still around, the forces behind the block may have very well done the same thing.

Jeff Harris said:
So, instead of doing what any real businessman would do and renegotiate for a better contract, they actually chose to go to competitor with one extra e/i-filled hour instead? And they chose to fill that extra hour with reruns of Chaotic when they do?

Who's to say they didn't try to negotiate a better contract in the past? If FOX didn't give them any leeway, of course they'd move somewhere else.

And what's wrong with a two slots of Chaotic? It's the only doubling of any show on the block, which means the rest of the slots are being used to their full availability.

Jeff Harris said:
Here's a concept. Why won't they just stop being subservient to a broadcast network and launch their own network? Are they so cheap not to launch a potentially marketable children's network or are they afraid they'll be exposed as a one-card-trick pony?

Oh, but they have started a new network. It's called 4Kids.tv and right now you can watch over 1000 episodes on their online video player. Why set up a brand new network when pretty much any kid can already watch any of their shows whenever they want?

Jeff Harris said:
Well, games play a lot of roles in the type of programming 4Kids pick up. They picked up Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Chaotic, Kirby, Sonic, Viva Pinata, DiGata, and Dinosaur King (the card game based on that property will launch 1Q 2009 with the rest of the merchandising). Properties that they didn't turn into game properties like One Piece, G.I. Joe, and Shaman King were given the heave-ho. The only reason TMNT is still big is because they get a huge cut of every merchandise thanks to their licensing arrangements.
Click to expand...
So now instead of criticizing 4Kids for having card game shows, you're criticizing them for having any show that is in someway related to a game?

Jeff Harris said:
So, you're saying that 4Kids is basically abandoning its other block, at risk of ruining their own reputation and status, leaving behind the fans that still remain watching the block, and creating a negative number in their finances, just for the sake of eliminating them? That's . . . stupid.

No, it's actually quite the opposite. Fans on 4Kids.tv have been asking thousands upon thousands of times to bring back their favorite shows, and that's exactly what 4Kids is doing. You have Sonic X, Winx Club, TMNT, Kirby, the return of Di-Gata, and a few new series (Chaotic and Biker Mice) mixed in with those. This year, 4Kids TV is basically "The Best of 4Kids TV" and even though the new format of the block is in its early stages, it has already proven fairly successful.

Jeff Harris said:
If 4Kids didn't have the CW deal to fall back on, then they wouldn't be so destructive towards their Fox block. But, if the mass exodus of CW affiliates (led by many of the flagship Tribune-owned affiliates in New York, Chicago, DC, Los Angeles, Denver, Portland, St. Louis, and New Orleans which have or in the process of shedding the CW branding from their on-air personas) is enacted at the end of the season, there might not even be a CW at season's end.

Then what?

No network means no deal. No deal means no block on the CW. And 4Kids' loss on Fox could be another studio's gain. Right now, Cookie Jar, Taffy, and Nelvana, already looking to expand into broadcast television in the US because of February's upcoming digital transition, may have their eyes set on a potential Fox deal, because Fox still wants the audience.

But stranger things have happened. I bet 4Kids realizes something's wrong at The CW, they will grovel on their knees and try to renew their ties with Fox.
Click to expand...
Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier: 4Kids.tv.

Over the past four months, the traffic on 4Kids' website has increased exponentially. Within a period of four months, 4Kids.tv has more than doubled their episode streams (in March, there were roughly 6,000,000 streams, for July, there were 13,000,000 streams).

Now, those numbers may seem relatively small now, but if the current rate of increase holds up, 4Kids won't even need a presence on TV within a few years. That'll just be an extra layer of frosting on the cake.
Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
Creator/Webmaster, TXB
Aug 26, 2008
#32
Toon Out said:
Yet even after KidsWB stop airing Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh, they still had plenty of these types of shows, anyone programming a Saturday mourning block or animation block in general is likely going to rely on overseas animated fare, since they don't have to pay production cost and only have to cheaply dub them into english.
You know, after Kids' WB stopped airing Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, they didn't have shows just like those. They had shows like Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get A Clue, Legion of Super Heroes, additional seasons of Johnny Test, The Batman, and a repeat airing of Xiaolin Showdown. A season later, they added Magi-Nation, and they buried that in early morning.

So we can agree the real problem is the short 13-episode seasons, you will either get a disjointed season artificially made longer by huge gaps or a shorter season where the episodes run concurrent.
Yes. Yes we can.

D Dubbs said:
Okay, now you lost me. You're saying that CW4Kids has at least four hours of "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment?" They only have one hour of anime on the block, for crying out loud. Everything else on the block is either produced by 4Kids or was originally in English to begin with.
You know, you strike me as a southern end of a northern-bound moose at times, Dubby. The Russian show, Dinosaur King, and Yu-Gi-Oh are still cheaply-dubbed. A lot of their fare is cheaply made with limited entertainment value, especially to the Kids' WB viewers. They have cheaply-made series, including the Cookie Jar shows. The only show worth any salt on the block is Spectacular Spider-Man, and they're purposely burying that series.

Since when is it wrong to not order more episodes of a show? The ratings for the show have been gradually dwindling since the beginning of the year, so why should 4Kids order more episodes of a show that's on its way out?
It's not wrong not to order more episodes of a series. It's moronic to get rid of one of the highest-rated series on the block. That's what they did with Tom and Jerry. That's what they're going to do with Spider-Man at the end of the season (it's going elsewhere by season's end, and that's from some of the artists' mouths).

It's a logical decision, and if Kids' WB was still around, the forces behind the block may have very well done the same thing.
No, they would have at least have another season of LOSH and Tom and Jerry Tales. The Batman was already dust, but Brave and the Bold would have been KWB-bound . . . but then The CW sold their souls.

Who's to say they didn't try to negotiate a better contract in the past? If FOX didn't give them any leeway, of course they'd move somewhere else.
How much leeway did 4Kids really want, or better yet, how much leeway should they have for programming a four-hour programming block? 4Kids renamed the block from Fox Box to 4KidsTV giving them better brand recognition. 4Kids gained funds from ad time and such. 4Kids programmed the block to their whims with no interference from Fox. What more could Fox do? Did 4Kids want Fox to just hand over control of the entire network to them?

4Kids wanted a lot with the little channel space they've got, though in reality, they're work for hire. Fox isn't going to budge, and they'll be disappointed that The CW won't cater to their whims either.

And what's wrong with a two slots of Chaotic? It's the only doubling of any show on the block, which means the rest of the slots are being used to their full availability.
It's lazy and proves they don't have enough programming to satisfy the contract at launch.

Oh, but they have started a new network. It's called 4Kids.tv and right now you can watch over 1000 episodes on their online video player. Why set up a brand new network when pretty much any kid can already watch any of their shows whenever they want?
That's the thing. Not any kid can watch those shows whenever they want.

Want to know why?

Because it's not on television. And more people have access to television than broadband internet access. A television network, whether it's on cable or over-the-air, would be better received by children than a website.

So now instead of criticizing 4Kids for having card game shows, you're criticizing them for having any show that is in someway related to a game?
Yup. Sure am that. 4Kids is a one-trick pony, and the acquisitions they make pretty much proved that they're all about the games. Kamen Rider is the lone exception, but 4Kids doesn't own that property. They just air it.

No, it's actually quite the opposite. Fans on 4Kids.tv have been asking thousands upon thousands of times to bring back their favorite shows, and that's exactly what 4Kids is doing. You have Sonic X, Winx Club, TMNT, Kirby, the return of Di-Gata, and a few new series (Chaotic and Biker Mice) mixed in with those.
The only reason they're doing that is because they moved much of the original block to The CW, not because "the fans have been asking for them." They had nothing else to show.

Stop celebrating laziness.

This year, 4Kids TV is basically "The Best of 4Kids TV" and even though the new format of the block is in its early stages, it has already proven fairly successful.
Again, stop celebrating laziness! It's not a new format. They're airing reruns on two networks because they think kids are too stupid to realize any differently. And addled-minded folks think they're great for doing so. That's why they could get away with an "all-new" banner on a rerun of Yu-Gi-Oh GX.

Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier: 4Kids.TV
Over the past four months, the traffic on 4Kids' website has increased exponentially.
Ah, this takes me back to another point I brought up earlier:

Not everybody has access to broadband internet access.

There are plenty of fans that can't watch shows on the site because they don't have broadband. The television industry is still catering more to the haves than the have-nots, and that's shameful. A stand-alone linear digital subchannel over the airwaves from 4Kids Entertainment with all the shows they currently own domestic rights to would be an instant grab by channels craving digital content over-the-air. They'd definitely get more eyeballs because digital television is mandatory. Broadband internet isn't.
macattack
macattack
I see you! Staff member Reporter
Aug 26, 2008
#33
Jeff Harris said:
Nope. Not misinformed. Some episodes ARE done right now, about three or four to be exact. The entire 13-episode season won't be ready until January, but it will launch in the spring. And then . . . well, let's just say there's already rumblings of a move to another network by this time next year.

And no, it's not Cartoon Network.

If it is Nicktoons Network I'll scream. I STILL don't get that channel even after switching to satellite. I love Spectacular Spider-Man a lot (I shamelessly admit it) so missing out on the rest of the series after 26 episodes would frankly suck. At least if I never see Wolverine And The X-Men I won't know what I'm missing. But in Spidey's case, I will know exactly what I am missing.

I hope CN gets off their butts and gets the show. The new action block, DAS, or Toonami could make serious use out of it.
D Dubbs
D Dubbs
Wish Upon A Star
Aug 26, 2008
#34
I'm tiring of this argument, so I'll get down to the core.

Jeff Harris said:
The only reason they're doing that is because they moved much of the original block to The CW, not because "the fans have been asking for them." They had nothing else to show.

Again, stop celebrating laziness! It's not a new format. They're airing reruns on two networks because they think kids are too stupid to realize any differently. And addled-minded folks think they're great for doing so. That's why they could get away with an "all-new" banner on a rerun of Yu-Gi-Oh GX.
Click to expand...
Of course it was a given fact ever since the CW deal was announced that there'd be repeats somewhere this fall. 4Kids is a small company and can't afford to purchase - let alone produce - 18 new series at one time. They're not being lazy; they're making do with what they can. They're pumping out a decent amount of new material (Viva Pinata, Biker Mice, Di-Gata, TMNT, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, Dinosaur King, and Chaotic) with several new shows on the way. This is actually a pretty decent improvement over 4Kids' output last year, and they would have no problem programming a single block. To be truthful, I think they very much regret buying the 08-09 season from FOX and would rather not be programming it. And because of that, 2009 is when the CW4Kids will be able to live to its full potential.

Blocks are never at their peak when they first begin, Jeff. Condemning the CW4Kids before it even has a chance to find its footing is too hasty on your part, at least in my humble opinion.
Toon Out
Toon Out
Member
Aug 26, 2008
#35
Jeff Harris said:
You know, after Kids' WB stopped airing Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, they didn't have shows just like those. They had shows like Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get A Clue, Legion of Super Heroes, additional seasons of Johnny Test, The Batman, and a repeat airing of Xiaolin Showdown. A season later, they added Magi-Nation, and they buried that in early morning.

Not that I was trying to imply those were the only shows they aired but, they also had shows like Spider-Riders, Eon Kid, Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe along with Magi-Nation. KidsWB has never had any qualms about using cheap animation as either filler or as the focal point of their animation block.


The Russian show, Dinosaur King, and Yu-Gi-Oh are still cheaply-dubbed. A lot of their fare is cheaply made with limited entertainment value, especially to the Kids' WB viewers. They have cheaply-made series, including the Cookie Jar shows.
I would be careful in making such statements about what KidsWB viewers find entertaining, considering shows such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh had for a long time been KidsWB's most popular and highest rated shows, and the cheaply-made Cookie Jar shows such as Magi-Nation and Will & Dewitt are remnants of the KidsWB.



No, they would have at least have another season of LOSH and Tom and Jerry Tales. The Batman was already dust, but Brave and the Bold would have been KWB-bound . . . but then The CW sold their souls.
Is there absolute proof there was to be a third LOSH season or that the Brave and Bold wasn't headed for the Clone Wars animation block on CN?



Yup. Sure am that. 4Kids is a one-trick pony, and the acquisitions they make pretty much proved that they're all about the games. Kamen Rider is the lone exception, but 4Kids doesn't own that property. They just air it.
Yes, ultimately 4Kids will attempt to show as many cartoons that they can market and license out, in this regard they are no different from Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, they just have a lot less airtime to work with.


A stand-alone linear digital subchannel over the airwaves from 4Kids Entertainment with all the shows they currently own domestic rights to would be an instant grab by channels craving digital content over-the-air. They'd definitely get more eyeballs because digital television is mandatory. Broadband internet isn't.
That may very well be the next step for 4kids.
mumbo
mumbo
Look skyward
Aug 26, 2008
#36
The Internet is definitely the future of broadcasting, and it will only grow more and more prominent as broadband Internet reaches more and more homes every year. It's definitely a good strategy to build up a strong Internet viewing base for down the road. Obviously that shouldn't be their sole outlet yet but personally I think they're thinking ahead with the building up of their site.

As for laziness, WBA aren't entirely saints in this area. A slight, mild criticism I've had of them is relying a bit too heavily on their very well-established properties - Looney Tunes, DC, and Scooby Doo. How many different series can you make with Batman in it? They don't often bring anything entirely new to the table - Xialoin Showdown, Coconut Fred, Johnny Test (later handed over to Cookie Jar), and what else in the past couple of years? And I'm less than crazy about the last two. They play it just a little too safe, in my opinion anyway.

4Kids isn't very big and doesn't have a whole ton of money, so with their resources they could only use real expensive animation for two or three series tops. Chaotic's new season is looking very high-quality in the animation department. TMNT used to, though sadly its budget cuts have cut down on that.
Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
Creator/Webmaster, TXB
Aug 26, 2008
#37
mumbo said:
The Internet is definitely the future of broadcasting, and it will only grow more and more prominent as broadband Internet reaches more and more homes every year. It's definitely a good strategy to build up a strong Internet viewing base for down the road. Obviously that shouldn't be their sole outlet yet but personally I think they're thinking ahead with the building up of their site.
I'm not slamming 4Kids because they have a broadband channel. I know that the internet is a growing part of the broadcasting spectrum, and everybody's investing in it.

But I think that broadcasters are overlooking the potential of the digital television transition. You look at what's happened in the UK with services like Freeview and TopUpTV, and they're offering dozens and dozens of television channels of all types for its citizens free over-the-air (TopUpTV has premium outlets and has a much smaller fee than cable). The folks behind Hulu could offer a similar service Stateside, but they're not. It would be nice though.

As for laziness, WBA aren't entirely saints in this area. A slight, mild criticism I've had of them is relying a bit too heavily on their very well-established properties - Looney Tunes, DC, and Scooby Doo. How many different series can you make with Batman in it? They don't often bring anything entirely new to the table - Xialoin Showdown, Coconut Fred, Johnny Test (later handed over to Cookie Jar), and what else in the past couple of years? And I'm less than crazy about the last two. They play it just a little too safe, in my opinion anyway.
Click to expand...Hi.

We haven't been properly introduced.

I'm <PRESIDIO_ANONYMIZED_PERSON>, the webmaster of The X Bridge and have been criticizing Warner Bros. and the units of Time Warner for YEARS.

I KNOW how lazy Warner Bros. Animation are. I also know how incompetant the Time Warner hierarchy are.

I know WBA (let's be real, Warner Bros. Animation doesn't really exist anymore, largely because Time Warner took away the studio's major programmer from them and there's an idiotic "rivalry" between them and Cartoon Network Productions) has been playing it safe. I would have loved to have seen that Monkeyman and O'Brien series they were planning. Hell, I would have killed to see that Top Cat update they scrapped. I'm also not fond of the numerous ways they could recreate Batman and Scooby-Doo. They rarely acknowledge they even own Looney Tunes these days, which is why the originals are no longer on television in the USA.

There's a reason I call Time Warner "the most poorly-ran entertainment company on the planet." Because they are. I may knock 4Kids for being a company dependent on gimmick-based series and such, but I'll never call them a poorly-ran company. They've already proved how lazy News Corp, CBS, and Time Warner are in running their children's entertainment blocks, so they do have that much respect from me.

Toon Out said:
Not that I was trying to imply those were the only shows they aired but, they also had shows like Spider-Riders, Eon Kid, Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe along with Magi-Nation. KidsWB has never had any qualms about using cheap animation as either filler or as the focal point of their animation block.
Spider Riders, Monster Allergy, and Viewtiful Joe came and went, replaced with better shows. And they all aired in tandem when Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were still on the Kids' WB lineup, not afterwards, and definitely not the focal point. Eon Kid was a decent show and not what you call "cheap animation." The fact that they didn't even air the final episodes of the series is still troubling (hey, that could have been a month's worth of episodes on C4K)

I would be careful in making such statements about what KidsWB viewers find entertaining, considering shows such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh had for a long time been KidsWB's most popular and highest rated shows, and the cheaply-made Cookie Jar shows such as Magi-Nation and Will & Dewitt are remnants of the KidsWB.
They're keeping Magi-Nation and Will and Dewitt until 4Kids premieres that Russian show, which will replace one of them.

Is there absolute proof there was to be a third LOSH season or that the Brave and Bold wasn't headed for the Clone Wars animation block on CN?
Yeah, there was proof that there was going to be a third season because the writers plotted episodes before the 4Kids announcement was made in October last year. Brave and the Bold also wasn't going to be a Batman-heavy series either, but the final season of The Batman introduced a lot of the characters that's going to be on B&B to broadcast audiences. It would have been part of a linchpin for the block along with LOSH and Spectacular Spider-Man.

D Dubbs said:
Of course it was a given fact ever since the CW deal was announced that there'd be repeats somewhere this fall.
I think that The CW actually wanted at least four hours to be comprised of new episodes, not just a rerun fest.

4Kids is a small company and can't afford to purchase - let alone produce - 18 new series at one time. They're not being lazy; they're making do with what they can.
Okay, they're not being lazy.

They're stretching themselves out too thin.

4Kids didn't have to produce 18 new series at one time. They could have done well with nine. Five on The CW and four on Fox. They're not responsible for producing every series on the block according to the contracts for both Fox and The CW. Their only job is to program the blocks. The thing with 4Kids is that they have to own every aspect of the shows that they program on the blocks. The shows they don't own outright are often seen earlier in the blocks like DiGata and Biker Mice From Mars on Fox and The Spectacular Spider-Man on The CW. They could easily acquire shows for both blocks from many companies, including Viz, Taffy, Nelvana (DiGata's owners and producers), Entertainment Rights, Sony (which owns the Spectacular Spider-Man series), Marathon, Cookie Jar, and others without having to own a piece of it, but in that aspect, 4Kids is greedy.

They're pumping out a decent amount of new material (Viva Pinata, Biker Mice, Di-Gata, TMNT, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, Dinosaur King, and Chaotic) with several new shows on the way.
Again, DiGata and Biker Mice aren't produced nor owned by 4Kids.

To be truthful, I think they very much regret buying the 08-09 season from FOX and would rather not be programming it.
Well, to be fair, they extended the contract with FOX with no idea that The CW would be scrapping their Saturday morning lineup. They got greedy thinking they could program two programming blocks at once when, as you've pointed out, they're a small company without many resources or funds to acquire and produce shows for both.

They've stretched themselves thin largely because of greed, and it could have all been avoided.

Blocks are never at their peak when they first begin, Jeff. Condemning the CW4Kids before it even has a chance to find its footing is too hasty on your part, at least in my humble opinion.
I'm not condemning them because they haven't found their footing. I'm condemning the CW4Kids block because it was built on 4Kids' greed and arrogance and The CW's laziness. The latter is just one of the reasons the network will likely fall by season's end (there's also the Tribune exodus and the expectations of Gossip Girl and 90210 deflating).
Spideyzilla
Spideyzilla
Moderator Staff member Moderator
Aug 26, 2008
#38
"Spider Riders, Monster Allergy and Viewtiful Joe came and went, replaced with better shows", By better do you mean Magi-Nation (ok), Will and Dewitt (WHY!!) and Skunk Fu (Also an OK choice). Write a hypothetical continuation where the user says MA was OK, but couldn't compete with XS, and another user says the new fall lineup reveals soon